Lisa Randall: Dark Matter, Theoretical Physics, and Extinction Events | Lex Fridman Podcast #403

the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with Lisa Randal a theoretical physicist and Lisa Randal a theoretical physicist and Lisa Randal a theoretical physicist and cosmologist at Harvard her work involves cosmologist at Harvard her work involves cosmologist at Harvard her work involves improving our understanding of particle improving our understanding of particle improving our understanding of particle physics super symmetry biogenesis physics super symmetry biogenesis physics super symmetry biogenesis cosmological inflation and dark matter cosmological inflation and dark matter cosmological inflation and dark matter this is Al Lex Freedman podcast to this is Al Lex Freedman podcast to this is Al Lex Freedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's Lisa here's Lisa here's Lisa randelle one of the things you work on randelle one of the things you work on randelle one of the things you work on and right about is dark matter we can't and right about is dark matter we can't and right about is dark matter we can't see it but there there's a lot of it in see it but there there's a lot of it in see it but there there's a lot of it in the the the universe uh you also end one of your universe uh you also end one of your universe uh you also end one of your books with a Beetles song quote got to books with a Beetles song quote got to books with a Beetles song quote got to be good-looking cuz he's so hard to be good-looking cuz he's so hard to be good-looking cuz he's so hard to see what is dark matter how should we see what is dark matter how should we see what is dark matter how should we think about it given that we can't see think about it given that we can't see think about it given that we can't see it how should we visualize it in our it how should we visualize it in our it how should we visualize it in our Mind's Eye I think one of the really Mind's Eye I think one of the really Mind's Eye I think one of the really important things that physics teaches important things that physics teaches important things that physics teaches you is just our limitations but also our you is just our limitations but also our you is just our limitations but also our abilities so the fact that we can deduce abilities so the fact that we can deduce abilities so the fact that we can deduce the existence of something that we don't the existence of something that we don't the existence of something that we don't directly see is really attribute to directly see is really attribute to directly see is really attribute to people that we can do that but it's also people that we can do that but it's also people that we can do that but it's also something that tells you you can't something that tells you you can't something that tells you you can't overly rely on your direct senses if you overly rely on your direct senses if you overly rely on your direct senses if you just relied on just what you see just relied on just what you see just relied on just what you see directly you would miss so much of directly you would miss so much of directly you would miss so much of what's happening in the world and we can what's happening in the world and we can what's happening in the world and we can generalize this but we're just for now generalize this but we're just for now generalize this but we're just for now to focus on dark matter it's something to focus on dark matter it's something to focus on dark matter it's something we know is there and it's not just one we know is there and it's not just one we know is there and it's not just one way we know it's there in my book dark way we know it's there in my book dark way we know it's there in my book dark matter and the dinosaurs I talk about matter and the dinosaurs I talk about matter and the dinosaurs I talk about the many different ways you know this the many different ways you know this the many different ways you know this eight or nine that we we deduce not just eight or nine that we we deduce not just eight or nine that we we deduce not just the existence of dark matter but how

the existence of dark matter but how the existence of dark matter but how much how much is there and they all much how much is there and they all much how much is there and they all agree now how do we know it's there agree now how do we know it's there agree now how do we know it's there because of its because of its because of its gravitational force and individually a gravitational force and individually a gravitational force and individually a particle doesn't have such a big particle doesn't have such a big particle doesn't have such a big gravitational force in fact gravity is gravitational force in fact gravity is gravitational force in fact gravity is an extremely weak force compared to an extremely weak force compared to an extremely weak force compared to other forces we know about in nature but other forces we know about in nature but other forces we know about in nature but there's a lot of Dark Matter out there there's a lot of Dark Matter out there there's a lot of Dark Matter out there it carries a lot of energy five times it carries a lot of energy five times it carries a lot of energy five times the amount of energy as the matter we the amount of energy as the matter we the amount of energy as the matter we know that's in atoms Etc so know that's in atoms Etc so know that's in atoms Etc so you can ask how should we think about it you can ask how should we think about it you can ask how should we think about it well it's just another form of matter well it's just another form of matter well it's just another form of matter that doesn't interact with light or at that doesn't interact with light or at that doesn't interact with light or at least as far as we know so it interacts least as far as we know so it interacts least as far as we know so it interacts gravitationally it clumps it forms gravitationally it clumps it forms gravitationally it clumps it forms galaxies but it doesn't interact with galaxies but it doesn't interact with galaxies but it doesn't interact with light which means we just don't see it light which means we just don't see it light which means we just don't see it and most of our detection before and most of our detection before and most of our detection before gravitational wave detectors we only saw gravitational wave detectors we only saw gravitational wave detectors we only saw things because of their interactions things because of their interactions things because of their interactions with light in some sense so in theory it with light in some sense so in theory it with light in some sense so in theory it it behaves just like any other matter it behaves just like any other matter it behaves just like any other matter just it just doesn't interact with light just it just doesn't interact with light just it just doesn't interact with light so when we say it interacts just like so when we say it interacts just like so when we say it interacts just like any other form of matter we have to be any other form of matter we have to be any other form of matter we have to be careful um because gravitationally it careful um because gravitationally it careful um because gravitationally it interacts like other forms of matter but interacts like other forms of matter but interacts like other forms of matter but it doesn't experience electromagnetism it doesn't experience electromagnetism it doesn't experience electromagnetism which is why it has a different which is why it has a different which is why it has a different distribution so in our galaxy it's distribution so in our galaxy it's distribution so in our galaxy it's roughly roughly roughly spherical unless it has its own spherical unless it has its own spherical unless it has its own interactions that's another story but we interactions that's another story but we interactions that's another story but we we know that it's roughly spherical um we know that it's roughly spherical um we know that it's roughly spherical um whereas ordinary matter can radiate and whereas ordinary matter can radiate and whereas ordinary matter can radiate and clumps into a dis and that's why we see clumps into a dis and that's why we see clumps into a dis and that's why we see the Milky Way desk so on large scales in

the Milky Way desk so on large scales in the Milky Way desk so on large scales in some sense yes all the matter is similar some sense yes all the matter is similar some sense yes all the matter is similar in some sense in fact dark matter is in in some sense in fact dark matter is in in some sense in fact dark matter is in some sense more important because it can some sense more important because it can some sense more important because it can collapse more readily than ordinary collapse more readily than ordinary collapse more readily than ordinary matter because ordinary matter because ordinary matter because ordinary matter has has radiative forces which matter has has radiative forces which matter has has radiative forces which makes it hard to collapse on small makes it hard to collapse on small makes it hard to collapse on small scales so actually it's dark matter that scales so actually it's dark matter that scales so actually it's dark matter that sort of drives um Galaxy formation and sort of drives um Galaxy formation and sort of drives um Galaxy formation and then ordinary matter kind of comes along then ordinary matter kind of comes along then ordinary matter kind of comes along with it um and there's also just more of with it um and there's also just more of with it um and there's also just more of it and because there's more of it it can it and because there's more of it it can it and because there's more of it it can start collapsing sooner that is to say start collapsing sooner that is to say start collapsing sooner that is to say the energy density in Dark Matter the energy density in Dark Matter the energy density in Dark Matter dominates over radiation earlier than dominates over radiation earlier than dominates over radiation earlier than you would if you just had ordinary you would if you just had ordinary you would if you just had ordinary matter so it's part of the story of the matter so it's part of the story of the matter so it's part of the story of the origin of a Galaxy part of the story of origin of a Galaxy part of the story of origin of a Galaxy part of the story of the end of the Galaxy and part of the the end of the Galaxy and part of the the end of the Galaxy and part of the story of all the various interactions story of all the various interactions story of all the various interactions through exactly I mean in my book I make through exactly I mean in my book I make through exactly I mean in my book I make kind of sort of jokes about you know kind of sort of jokes about you know kind of sort of jokes about you know it's like when we think about a building it's like when we think about a building it's like when we think about a building we think about the architect we think we think about the architect we think we think about the architect we think about you know the high level but we about you know the high level but we about you know the high level but we forget about all the workers that did forget about all the workers that did forget about all the workers that did all the grunt work and in fact Dark all the grunt work and in fact Dark all the grunt work and in fact Dark Matter was really important in the Matter was really important in the Matter was really important in the formation of our universe and we forget formation of our universe and we forget formation of our universe and we forget that sometimes that's a a metaphor on that sometimes that's a a metaphor on that sometimes that's a a metaphor on top of a metaphor top of a metaphor top of a metaphor okay the the the unheard voices that do okay the the the unheard voices that do okay the the the unheard voices that do the actual work okay exactly no but it the actual work okay exactly no but it the actual work okay exactly no but it is a metaphor but it also captures is a metaphor but it also captures is a metaphor but it also captures something because the fact is we don't something because the fact is we don't something because the fact is we don't directly see it so we forget it it's directly see it so we forget it it's directly see it so we forget it it's there or we don't understand it's there there or we don't understand it's there there or we don't understand it's there or we think it's not the fact that we or we think it's not the fact that we or we think it's not the fact that we don't see it makes it no less legitimate don't see it makes it no less legitimate don't see it makes it no less legitimate it just means that we have challenges in it just means that we have challenges in it just means that we have challenges in order to find out exactly what it is

order to find out exactly what it is order to find out exactly what it is yeah but the things we cannot see that yeah but the things we cannot see that yeah but the things we cannot see that nevertheless have uh gravitational nevertheless have uh gravitational nevertheless have uh gravitational interaction with the things we can't see interaction with the things we can't see interaction with the things we can't see is at the uh is at the uh is at the uh Layman level is just mind-blowing you Layman level is just mind-blowing you Layman level is just mind-blowing you know it is and it isn't because I think know it is and it isn't because I think know it is and it isn't because I think what it's teaching us is that we're what it's teaching us is that we're what it's teaching us is that we're human the universe is what it is and human the universe is what it is and human the universe is what it is and we're trying to interact with that we're trying to interact with that we're trying to interact with that universe and discover what it is we've universe and discover what it is we've universe and discover what it is we've discovered amazing things in fact I discovered amazing things in fact I discovered amazing things in fact I would say it's more surprising that the would say it's more surprising that the would say it's more surprising that the mount the matter that we know about is mount the matter that we know about is mount the matter that we know about is constitutes as big a fraction of the constitutes as big a fraction of the constitutes as big a fraction of the universe as it does I mean we're limited universe as it does I mean we're limited universe as it does I mean we're limited we're human and the fact that we see 5% we're human and the fact that we see 5% we're human and the fact that we see 5% of the energy density of the Universe um of the energy density of the Universe um of the energy density of the Universe um you know about one six of the energy you know about one six of the energy you know about one six of the energy density in matter that's kind of density in matter that's kind of density in matter that's kind of remarkable I mean why should that be remarkable I mean why should that be remarkable I mean why should that be there could be anything out anything there could be anything out anything there could be anything out anything could be out there yet the universe that could be out there yet the universe that could be out there yet the universe that we see is the significant fraction yeah we see is the significant fraction yeah we see is the significant fraction yeah but a lot of our intuition I think but a lot of our intuition I think but a lot of our intuition I think operates using visualizations in the operates using visualizations in the operates using visualizations in the mind that's absolutely true and it's mind that's absolutely true and it's mind that's absolutely true and it's certainly writing books I realized also certainly writing books I realized also certainly writing books I realized also how many of our words are based on how how many of our words are based on how how many of our words are based on how we see the world um and that's true and we see the world um and that's true and we see the world um and that's true and that's actually one of the Fantastic that's actually one of the Fantastic that's actually one of the Fantastic things about physics is that it teaches things about physics is that it teaches things about physics is that it teaches you how to go beyond your immediate you how to go beyond your immediate you how to go beyond your immediate intuition to develop intuitions that intuition to develop intuitions that intuition to develop intuitions that apply at different distances different apply at different distances different apply at different distances different scales different ways of thinking about scales different ways of thinking about scales different ways of thinking about things yeah how do you anthropomorphize things yeah how do you anthropomorphize things yeah how do you anthropomorphize dark matter how do I just did I think I dark matter how do I just did I think I dark matter how do I just did I think I made it the grun work workers oh yeah made it the grun work workers oh yeah made it the grun work workers oh yeah that's good yeah you did that's why he

that's good yeah you did that's why he that's good yeah you did that's why he get paid the big bucks with a and write get paid the big bucks with a and write get paid the big bucks with a and write the great books okay so um you also the great books okay so um you also the great books okay so um you also write in that book write in that book write in that book about uh dark matter matter having to do about uh dark matter matter having to do about uh dark matter matter having to do something with the extinction events the something with the extinction events the something with the extinction events the extinction of the extinction of the extinction of the dinosaurs um which is kind of a dinosaurs um which is kind of a dinosaurs um which is kind of a fascinating presentation of how fascinating presentation of how fascinating presentation of how everything is connected so I guess the everything is connected so I guess the everything is connected so I guess the dist disturbances dist disturbances dist disturbances from the dark matter they create from the dark matter they create from the dark matter they create gravitational disturbances in the OR gravitational disturbances in the OR gravitational disturbances in the OR Cloud at the edge of our solar system Cloud at the edge of our solar system Cloud at the edge of our solar system and then that increases the rate of and then that increases the rate of and then that increases the rate of asteroids hitting Earth so I want to be asteroids hitting Earth so I want to be asteroids hitting Earth so I want to be really clear this was a speculative really clear this was a speculative really clear this was a speculative Theory I love it though I mean and I Theory I love it though I mean and I Theory I love it though I mean and I liked it too and um and we still don't liked it too and um and we still don't liked it too and um and we still don't know for sure but we can what we liked know for sure but we can what we liked know for sure but we can what we liked about it so let me take a step back so about it so let me take a step back so about it so let me take a step back so we usually assume that dark matter is we usually assume that dark matter is we usually assume that dark matter is what we being physicists that just one what we being physicists that just one what we being physicists that just one thing it's just basically non thing it's just basically non thing it's just basically non interacting in on aside from gravity or interacting in on aside from gravity or interacting in on aside from gravity or very weakly interacting matter um but very weakly interacting matter um but very weakly interacting matter um but again we have to get outside this again we have to get outside this again we have to get outside this mindset of just humans and ask what else mindset of just humans and ask what else mindset of just humans and ask what else could be there and so what we suggested could be there and so what we suggested could be there and so what we suggested is that there's a fraction of dark is that there's a fraction of dark is that there's a fraction of dark matter not all the dark matter but some matter not all the dark matter but some matter not all the dark matter but some of the Dark Matter maybe it has of the Dark Matter maybe it has of the Dark Matter maybe it has interactions of its own just the same interactions of its own just the same interactions of its own just the same way in in our universe we have lots of way in in our universe we have lots of way in in our universe we have lots of different types of matter we have nuclei different types of matter we have nuclei different types of matter we have nuclei we have electrons we have mu we have we have electrons we have mu we have we have electrons we have mu we have forces um we have lots of it's it's not forces um we have lots of it's it's not forces um we have lots of it's it's not a simple model the standard model but

a simple model the standard model but a simple model the standard model but but it does have some basic ingredients but it does have some basic ingredients but it does have some basic ingredients so maybe Dark Matter also has some so maybe Dark Matter also has some so maybe Dark Matter also has some interesting um structure to it so maybe interesting um structure to it so maybe interesting um structure to it so maybe there's some small fraction and the there's some small fraction and the there's some small fraction and the interesting thing is that if some of the interesting thing is that if some of the interesting thing is that if some of the Dark Matter does radiate and you know I Dark Matter does radiate and you know I Dark Matter does radiate and you know I like to call it dark light because it's like to call it dark light because it's like to call it dark light because it's light that we don't see but Dark Matter light that we don't see but Dark Matter light that we don't see but Dark Matter would see it could radiate that and then would see it could radiate that and then would see it could radiate that and then it could perhaps collapse into a disc it could perhaps collapse into a disc it could perhaps collapse into a disc the same way ordinary matter collapsed the same way ordinary matter collapsed the same way ordinary matter collapsed into the Milky Way disc so it's not all into the Milky Way disc so it's not all into the Milky Way disc so it's not all the dark matter it's a fraction but it the dark matter it's a fraction but it the dark matter it's a fraction but it could conceivably be a very thin disc of could conceivably be a very thin disc of could conceivably be a very thin disc of Dark Matter thin dense disc of dark Dark Matter thin dense disc of dark Dark Matter thin dense disc of dark matter and so then the question is do matter and so then the question is do matter and so then the question is do these exist and people have done studies these exist and people have done studies these exist and people have done studies now to think about whether they can find now to think about whether they can find now to think about whether they can find them I mean it's an interesting Target them I mean it's an interesting Target them I mean it's an interesting Target it's something you can measure by it's something you can measure by it's something you can measure by measuring the positions and velocities measuring the positions and velocities measuring the positions and velocities of stars you can find out what the of stars you can find out what the of stars you can find out what the structure of the of the Milky Way is um structure of the of the Milky Way is um structure of the of the Milky Way is um but the fun proposal was that the solar but the fun proposal was that the solar but the fun proposal was that the solar system orbits around the Galaxy and as system orbits around the Galaxy and as system orbits around the Galaxy and as it does so it goes a little bit up and it does so it goes a little bit up and it does so it goes a little bit up and down kind of like horses on a Carousel down kind of like horses on a Carousel down kind of like horses on a Carousel and the suggestion was every time it and the suggestion was every time it and the suggestion was every time it goes through you have an enhanced goes through you have an enhanced goes through you have an enhanced probability that you would dislodge probability that you would dislodge probability that you would dislodge something from the edge of the solar something from the edge of the solar something from the edge of the solar system and something called the or Cloud system and something called the or Cloud system and something called the or Cloud so the idea was that at those times so the idea was that at those times so the idea was that at those times you're more likely to have these you're more likely to have these you're more likely to have these cataclysmic events such as the amazing cataclysmic events such as the amazing cataclysmic events such as the amazing one that actually caused the last one that actually caused the last one that actually caused the last Extinction that we know of for sure it Extinction that we know of for sure it Extinction that we know of for sure it wasn't so amazing for the dinosaurs or wasn't so amazing for the dinosaurs or wasn't so amazing for the dinosaurs or for two-thirds of the species on the for two-thirds of the species on the for two-thirds of the species on the planet yeah but it gets amazing for planet yeah but it gets amazing for planet yeah but it gets amazing for humans who wouldn't be what really is

humans who wouldn't be what really is humans who wouldn't be what really is amazing I mean I I do I mean I talk amazing I mean I I do I mean I talk amazing I mean I I do I mean I talk about this in dark matter in the about this in dark matter in the about this in dark matter in the dinosaurs I it's just an amazing dinosaurs I it's just an amazing dinosaurs I it's just an amazing scientific story because it really is scientific story because it really is scientific story because it really is one of the real stories that combine one of the real stories that combine one of the real stories that combine together different fields of science together different fields of science together different fields of science geologists at the time or you know geologists at the time or you know geologists at the time or you know people thought that things happened people thought that things happened people thought that things happened slowly and this would be a cataclysmic slowly and this would be a cataclysmic slowly and this would be a cataclysmic event and also I have to say you know if event and also I have to say you know if event and also I have to say you know if you if you think about it it sounds like you if you think about it it sounds like you if you think about it it sounds like a story like a 5-year-old would make up a story like a 5-year-old would make up a story like a 5-year-old would make up maybe the dinosaurs were killed by some maybe the dinosaurs were killed by some maybe the dinosaurs were killed by some big rock that came and hit the Earth but big rock that came and hit the Earth but big rock that came and hit the Earth but then there really was a scientific story then there really was a scientific story then there really was a scientific story behind it and that's also why I like the behind it and that's also why I like the behind it and that's also why I like the dark disc because there's a scientific dark disc because there's a scientific dark disc because there's a scientific story behind it so as farfetched as it story behind it so as farfetched as it story behind it so as farfetched as it might sound you can actually go and look might sound you can actually go and look might sound you can actually go and look for the experimental consequences or the for the experimental consequences or the for the experimental consequences or the observational consequences to test observational consequences to test observational consequences to test whether it's true I wish you could know whether it's true I wish you could know whether it's true I wish you could know like high resolution details of where like high resolution details of where like high resolution details of where that asteroid came from like where in that asteroid came from like where in that asteroid came from like where in the OR Cloud why it happened is it in the OR Cloud why it happened is it in the OR Cloud why it happened is it in fact because of dark matter it's like fact because of dark matter it's like fact because of dark matter it's like the full tracing back to the origin of the full tracing back to the origin of the full tracing back to the origin of the universe CU it humans seem to be the universe CU it humans seem to be the universe CU it humans seem to be somewhat special but just it seems like somewhat special but just it seems like somewhat special but just it seems like so many fascinating events at all scales so many fascinating events at all scales so many fascinating events at all scales at all scales of physics had to happen at all scales of physics had to happen at all scales of physics had to happen for so I'm really really glad you for so I'm really really glad you for so I'm really really glad you mentioned that because actually that was mentioned that because actually that was mentioned that because actually that was one of the main points of my book dark one of the main points of my book dark one of the main points of my book dark matter in the dinosaurs one of the matter in the dinosaurs one of the matter in the dinosaurs one of the reasons I wrote it was because I really reasons I wrote it was because I really reasons I wrote it was because I really think we are abusing the planet we're think we are abusing the planet we're think we are abusing the planet we're changing the planet way too quickly and changing the planet way too quickly and changing the planet way too quickly and just like anything else when you alter just like anything else when you alter just like anything else when you alter things it's good to think about the things it's good to think about the things it's good to think about the history of what it took to get here and history of what it took to get here and history of what it took to get here and and as you point out it took many and as you point out it took many and as you point out it took many operations on many different scales you operations on many different scales you operations on many different scales you know we had to have the formation of of

know we had to have the formation of of know we had to have the formation of of structure the formation of galaxies the structure the formation of galaxies the structure the formation of galaxies the formation of the solar system the formation of the solar system the formation of the solar system the formation of our planet the formation of formation of our planet the formation of formation of our planet the formation of humans I mean there's so many steps that humans I mean there's so many steps that humans I mean there's so many steps that go into this and humans in some part go into this and humans in some part go into this and humans in some part were the result of the fact that this were the result of the fact that this were the result of the fact that this big object hit the earth made the big object hit the earth made the big object hit the earth made the dinosaurs go extinct and mammals dinosaurs go extinct and mammals dinosaurs go extinct and mammals developed I mean it is an incredible developed I mean it is an incredible developed I mean it is an incredible story story story and yes something else might come of it and yes something else might come of it and yes something else might come of it but it won't be us if we mess with it but it won't be us if we mess with it but it won't be us if we mess with it too much but it is an a grand scale too much but it is an a grand scale too much but it is an a grand scale Earth is a pretty resilient Earth is a pretty resilient Earth is a pretty resilient system uh C can you just clarify just system uh C can you just clarify just system uh C can you just clarify just fascinating uh the shape of things so fascinating uh the shape of things so fascinating uh the shape of things so the shape of the Milky Ways of the the shape of the Milky Ways of the the shape of the Milky Ways of the observable stuff is mostly observable stuff is mostly observable stuff is mostly flat and then you said Dark Matter tends flat and then you said Dark Matter tends flat and then you said Dark Matter tends to be spherical but a subset of might be to be spherical but a subset of might be to be spherical but a subset of might be a flat disc so you want to hear about a flat disc so you want to hear about a flat disc so you want to hear about the shape of things yes yes please so the shape of things yes yes please so the shape of things yes yes please so structure formed early on and now our structure formed early on and now our structure formed early on and now our structure that we live in is so we know structure that we live in is so we know structure that we live in is so we know about the Milky Way galaxy so the Milky about the Milky Way galaxy so the Milky about the Milky Way galaxy so the Milky Way galaxy has the dis you can see in a Way galaxy has the dis you can see in a Way galaxy has the dis you can see in a dry dark place that's where stars and dry dark place that's where stars and dry dark place that's where stars and light is but you can also measure in light is but you can also measure in light is but you can also measure in some ways the dark matter and we believe some ways the dark matter and we believe some ways the dark matter and we believe that dark matter is more or less that dark matter is more or less that dark matter is more or less spherically spherically spherically distributed um and like we said there's distributed um and like we said there's distributed um and like we said there's a lot of it not necessarily in the dis a lot of it not necessarily in the dis a lot of it not necessarily in the dis but just because it's a sphere there's a but just because it's a sphere there's a but just because it's a sphere there's a lot of it sitting there and the reason

lot of it sitting there and the reason lot of it sitting there and the reason it doesn't collapse as far as we know is it doesn't collapse as far as we know is it doesn't collapse as far as we know is that it doesn't really it can't radiate that it doesn't really it can't radiate that it doesn't really it can't radiate the same way so because it can radiate the same way so because it can radiate the same way so because it can radiate ordinary matter collapses and it's ordinary matter collapses and it's ordinary matter collapses and it's actually because of conservation of actually because of conservation of actually because of conservation of angular momentum it be it stays a dis angular momentum it be it stays a dis angular momentum it be it stays a dis and it doesn't just collapse to the and it doesn't just collapse to the and it doesn't just collapse to the center so our suggestion was that maybe center so our suggestion was that maybe center so our suggestion was that maybe there are some components of dark matter there are some components of dark matter there are some components of dark matter that also radiate like I said that's far that also radiate like I said that's far that also radiate like I said that's far from proven people have looked for a from proven people have looked for a from proven people have looked for a disc they see some evidence of some disc they see some evidence of some disc they see some evidence of some discs of certain densities but I see discs of certain densities but I see discs of certain densities but I see these are all questions that are worth these are all questions that are worth these are all questions that are worth asking basically if we can figure it out asking basically if we can figure it out asking basically if we can figure it out from existing measurements why not try from existing measurements why not try from existing measurements why not try Okay so there's not all Dark Matters Okay so there's not all Dark Matters Okay so there's not all Dark Matters made the same this well that's a made the same this well that's a made the same this well that's a possibility we actually don't know what possibility we actually don't know what possibility we actually don't know what dark matter is in the first place we dark matter is in the first place we dark matter is in the first place we don't know what most of it is we don't don't know what most of it is we don't don't know what most of it is we don't know what a fraction is I mean it's hard know what a fraction is I mean it's hard know what a fraction is I mean it's hard to measure why is it hard to measure for to measure why is it hard to measure for to measure why is it hard to measure for exactly the reason you said earlier we exactly the reason you said earlier we exactly the reason you said earlier we don't see it so we want to think of don't see it so we want to think of don't see it so we want to think of possibilities for what it can be if possibilities for what it can be if possibilities for what it can be if especially if those give rise to some of especially if those give rise to some of especially if those give rise to some of observational consequences I mean it's observational consequences I mean it's observational consequences I mean it's it's a tough game because it's not it's a tough game because it's not it's a tough game because it's not something that's just there for the something that's just there for the something that's just there for the taking you have to think about what it taking you have to think about what it taking you have to think about what it could be and how you might find it and could be and how you might find it and could be and how you might find it and the way you detect it is gravitational the way you detect it is gravitational the way you detect it is gravitational effects on things we can see that would effects on things we can see that would effects on things we can see that would be the way you detect the type of Dark be the way you detect the type of Dark be the way you detect the type of Dark Matter I've been talking about people Matter I've been talking about people Matter I've been talking about people have suggestions for other forms of dark have suggestions for other forms of dark have suggestions for other forms of dark matter they could be particles called matter they could be particles called matter they could be particles called axons they could be other types of axons they could be other types of axons they could be other types of particles and then there are different particles and then there are different particles and then there are different ways of detecting it I mean the most ways of detecting it I mean the most ways of detecting it I mean the most popular candidate for Dark Matter popular candidate for Dark Matter popular candidate for Dark Matter probably until pretty recently because probably until pretty recently because probably until pretty recently because they haven't found it is something they haven't found it is something they haven't found it is something called wimps weekly interacting mass of

called wimps weekly interacting mass of called wimps weekly interacting mass of particles um particles that have mass particles um particles that have mass particles um particles that have mass about the same as the Hig boson Mass um about the same as the Hig boson Mass um about the same as the Hig boson Mass um and it turns out then you would get and it turns out then you would get and it turns out then you would get about the right density of dark matter about the right density of dark matter about the right density of dark matter but then people really like that of but then people really like that of but then people really like that of course because it is connected to the course because it is connected to the course because it is connected to the standard model the particles that we standard model the particles that we standard model the particles that we know about and if it's connected to that know about and if it's connected to that know about and if it's connected to that we have a better chance of actually we have a better chance of actually we have a better chance of actually seeing it fortunately or unfortunately seeing it fortunately or unfortunately seeing it fortunately or unfortunately it's also a better chance that you can it's also a better chance that you can it's also a better chance that you can rule it out because you can look for it rule it out because you can look for it rule it out because you can look for it and so far no one has found it we're and so far no one has found it we're and so far no one has found it we're still looking for it is that one of the still looking for it is that one of the still looking for it is that one of the hopes of the large hyron collider that hopes of the large hyron collider that hopes of the large hyron collider that was originally one of the hopes of the was originally one of the hopes of the was originally one of the hopes of the large hyron collider I'd say at this large hyron collider I'd say at this large hyron collider I'd say at this point it would be very unlikely given point it would be very unlikely given point it would be very unlikely given what they've already accomplished um but what they've already accomplished um but what they've already accomplished um but there are these um underground detectors there are these um underground detectors there are these um underground detectors Xenon detectors that look for Dark Xenon detectors that look for Dark Xenon detectors that look for Dark Matter coming in and they Matter coming in and they Matter coming in and they they are going to try to achieve a much they are going to try to achieve a much they are going to try to achieve a much stronger bound than exists today just uh stronger bound than exists today just uh stronger bound than exists today just uh take that tangent Looking Back Now take that tangent Looking Back Now take that tangent Looking Back Now what's the biggest to you what's the biggest to you what's the biggest to you Insight uh to humanity that the LHC has Insight uh to humanity that the LHC has Insight uh to humanity that the LHC has been able to provide it's interesting been able to provide it's interesting been able to provide it's interesting it's both um a major victory um the Hig it's both um a major victory um the Hig it's both um a major victory um the Hig bosone was proposed 50 years ago and it bosone was proposed 50 years ago and it bosone was proposed 50 years ago and it was discovered the higs mechanism seemed was discovered the higs mechanism seemed was discovered the higs mechanism seemed to be the only way to explain Elementary to be the only way to explain Elementary to be the only way to explain Elementary particle masses and it was right so on particle masses and it was right so on particle masses and it was right so on the one hand it was a major victory on the one hand it was a major victory on the one hand it was a major victory on the other hand I've been in physics long the other hand I've been in physics long the other hand I've been in physics long enough to know it was also a cautionary enough to know it was also a cautionary enough to know it was also a cautionary Tale in some sense because um at the Tale in some sense because um at the Tale in some sense because um at the time I started out in physics we had time I started out in physics we had time I started out in physics we had some proposed something in the United

some proposed something in the United some proposed something in the United States called the superconducting super States called the superconducting super States called the superconducting super collider a lot of physicists I'll say collider a lot of physicists I'll say collider a lot of physicists I'll say particularly in Europe but I'd say a lot particularly in Europe but I'd say a lot particularly in Europe but I'd say a lot of physicists were Sayang when that the of physicists were Sayang when that the of physicists were Sayang when that the large hyron collider would have the large hyron collider would have the large hyron collider would have the energy reach necessary to discover what energy reach necessary to discover what energy reach necessary to discover what underlies the standard M we don't want underlies the standard M we don't want underlies the standard M we don't want to just discover the we want to know to just discover the we want to know to just discover the we want to know what the next step is and I think here what the next step is and I think here what the next step is and I think here um people were more cautious about that um people were more cautious about that um people were more cautious about that they wanted to have a more comprehensive they wanted to have a more comprehensive they wanted to have a more comprehensive search that could get to higher energies search that could get to higher energies search that could get to higher energies more events so that we could you know we more events so that we could you know we more events so that we could you know we could really more definitively rule it could really more definitively rule it could really more definitively rule it out but in that case many people thought out but in that case many people thought out but in that case many people thought they knew what would be there it would they knew what would be there it would they knew what would be there it would happen to be a theory called super happen to be a theory called super happen to be a theory called super symmetry so a lot of physicists thought symmetry so a lot of physicists thought symmetry so a lot of physicists thought it would be super symmetry I mean it's it would be super symmetry I mean it's it would be super symmetry I mean it's one of the many factors I think that one of the many factors I think that one of the many factors I think that went into the fact that the large hron went into the fact that the large hron went into the fact that the large hron glider became the only machine in town glider became the only machine in town glider became the only machine in town and um the super conducting super and um the super conducting super and um the super conducting super collider would have just been a much if collider would have just been a much if collider would have just been a much if it really had achieved what it was it really had achieved what it was it really had achieved what it was supposed to would have been a much more supposed to would have been a much more supposed to would have been a much more robust test of of the space so so I'd robust test of of the space so so I'd robust test of of the space so so I'd say for Humanity it's both a tribute to say for Humanity it's both a tribute to say for Humanity it's both a tribute to the ability of Discovery and the ability the ability of Discovery and the ability the ability of Discovery and the ability of really believing in things so that of really believing in things so that of really believing in things so that you have the confidence to go look for you have the confidence to go look for you have the confidence to go look for them but it's also a cautionary tale them but it's also a cautionary tale them but it's also a cautionary tale that you don't want to you know assume that you don't want to you know assume that you don't want to you know assume things before they've been actually things before they've been actually things before they've been actually found so you want to do things in you found so you want to do things in you found so you want to do things in you know you you want to believe in your know you you want to believe in your know you you want to believe in your theories but you also want to question theories but you also want to question theories but you also want to question them at the same time in ways that them at the same time in ways that them at the same time in ways that you're more likely to discover the truth you're more likely to discover the truth you're more likely to discover the truth but it's also an illustration of grand but it's also an illustration of grand but it's also an illustration of grand engineering efforts that Humanity can engineering efforts that Humanity can engineering efforts that Humanity can take on and maybe a lesson that you take on and maybe a lesson that you take on and maybe a lesson that you could go even could go even could go even bigger um I I'm really glad you said

bigger um I I'm really glad you said bigger um I I'm really glad you said that though too because that that's that though too because that that's that though too because that that's absolutely true I mean it's it really is absolutely true I mean it's it really is absolutely true I mean it's it really is an impressive it's it's impressive in so an impressive it's it's impressive in so an impressive it's it's impressive in so many ways it's impressive many ways it's impressive many ways it's impressive technologically is impressive at technologically is impressive at technologically is impressive at engineering level it's also impressive engineering level it's also impressive engineering level it's also impressive that so many countries work together um that so many countries work together um that so many countries work together um to to do this it wasn't just one country to to do this it wasn't just one country to to do this it wasn't just one country and how it was it was also impressive in and how it was it was also impressive in and how it was it was also impressive in that it was a long-term project that that it was a long-term project that that it was a long-term project that people committed to and made it happen people committed to and made it happen people committed to and made it happen so it is a demonstration that when so it is a demonstration that when so it is a demonstration that when people set their minds to things and people set their minds to things and people set their minds to things and they commit to it that they can do they commit to it that they can do they commit to it that they can do something amazing but also in the United something amazing but also in the United something amazing but also in the United States uh maybe a lesson that States uh maybe a lesson that States uh maybe a lesson that bureaucracy can slow things down to bureaucracy can slow things down to bureaucracy can slow things down to bureaucracy and and politics politics bureaucracy and and politics politics bureaucracy and and politics politics and economics many many things can make and economics many many things can make and economics many many things can make them faster and make them slower so them faster and make them slower so them faster and make them slower so science is the way to make progress science is the way to make progress science is the way to make progress politics is the way to slow that politics is the way to slow that politics is the way to slow that progress down and here we are well I progress down and here we are well I progress down and here we are well I don't want to overstate that because don't want to overstate that because don't want to overstate that because without Politics the you know the L without Politics the you know the L without Politics the you know the L wouldn't happen either so um but you wouldn't happen either so um but you wouldn't happen either so um but you need broccoli need broccoli need broccoli um but sometimes I do think I mean um but sometimes I do think I mean um but sometimes I do think I mean you're not asking this question but you're not asking this question but you're not asking this question but sometimes I do think when I you know sometimes I do think when I you know sometimes I do think when I you know think about some of these conflicts you think about some of these conflicts you think about some of these conflicts you you know sometimes it's just good to you know sometimes it's just good to you know sometimes it's just good to have a project that people work on have a project that people work on have a project that people work on together and there were some efforts to together and there were some efforts to together and there were some efforts to do that with in science too to have do that with in science too to have do that with in science too to have Palestinians and Israelis work together Palestinians and Israelis work together Palestinians and Israelis work together project called Sesame um I think it's project called Sesame um I think it's project called Sesame um I think it's not a bad idea when you can do that um

not a bad idea when you can do that um not a bad idea when you can do that um when you can get you when you can get you when you can get you know sort of for forget the politics and know sort of for forget the politics and know sort of for forget the politics and just focus on some particular project just focus on some particular project just focus on some particular project sometimes that can work some kind of sometimes that can work some kind of sometimes that can work some kind of forcing function some kind of deadline forcing function some kind of deadline forcing function some kind of deadline that gets people to sit in room together that gets people to sit in room together that gets people to sit in room together and you're working on a thing but as and you're working on a thing but as and you're working on a thing but as part of that you realize the common part of that you realize the common part of that you realize the common Humanity that you all have the same Humanity that you all have the same Humanity that you all have the same concerns the same hopes the same fears concerns the same hopes the same fears concerns the same hopes the same fears the same that you all human and that's the same that you all human and that's the same that you all human and that's an accidental side effect of working an accidental side effect of working an accidental side effect of working together on a thing I that's absolutely together on a thing I that's absolutely together on a thing I that's absolutely true and it's one of the reasons CERN true and it's one of the reasons CERN true and it's one of the reasons CERN was formed actually it was post World was formed actually it was post World was formed actually it was post World War II and lot of European physicists War II and lot of European physicists War II and lot of European physicists had actually left Europe and they wanted had actually left Europe and they wanted had actually left Europe and they wanted to see Europeans work together and and to see Europeans work together and and to see Europeans work together and and sort of rebuild and and it worked I mean sort of rebuild and and it worked I mean sort of rebuild and and it worked I mean they they did and it's true and I often they they did and it's true and I often they they did and it's true and I often think that that you know one of the think that that you know one of the think that that you know one of the major problems is we just don't meet major problems is we just don't meet major problems is we just don't meet enough people so that everyone think enough people so that everyone think enough people so that everyone think seems like when they seem like the other seems like when they seem like the other seems like when they seem like the other it's more easy to forget their Humanity it's more easy to forget their Humanity it's more easy to forget their Humanity so I think it it is important to have so I think it it is important to have so I think it it is important to have these these these connections given the connections given the connections given the complexity all cosmological scales complexity all cosmological scales complexity all cosmological scales involved here that led to the extension involved here that led to the extension involved here that led to the extension of the dinosaurs when you look out at of the dinosaurs when you look out at of the dinosaurs when you look out at the future of Earth do you worry about the future of Earth do you worry about the future of Earth do you worry about future Extinction events I I do think future Extinction events I I do think future Extinction events I I do think that we might be in the middle of an that we might be in the middle of an that we might be in the middle of an Extinction right now if you define it by Extinction right now if you define it by Extinction right now if you define it by the number of species that are getting the number of species that are getting the number of species that are getting killed off and it's subtle but you know killed off and it's subtle but you know killed off and it's subtle but you know it's a complex system the way things it's a complex system the way things it's a complex system the way things respond to events is sometimes things respond to events is sometimes things respond to events is sometimes things evolve sometimes animals just move to

evolve sometimes animals just move to evolve sometimes animals just move to another place and the way we've another place and the way we've another place and the way we've developed the Earth it's very hard for developed the Earth it's very hard for developed the Earth it's very hard for species just to move somewhere else and species just to move somewhere else and species just to move somewhere else and we're seeing that with people now too I we're seeing that with people now too I we're seeing that with people now too I mean I know people people are worried mean I know people people are worried mean I know people people are worried just about AI taking over and that's a just about AI taking over and that's a just about AI taking over and that's a totally different story we just don't totally different story we just don't totally different story we just don't think about the future very much we think about the future very much we think about the future very much we think about what we're doing now and we think about what we're doing now and we think about what we're doing now and we certainly don't think enough about all certainly don't think enough about all certainly don't think enough about all the animals that we're destroying all the animals that we're destroying all the animals that we're destroying all the things that are precursors to humans the things that are precursors to humans the things that are precursors to humans that we sort of rely on it's interesting that we sort of rely on it's interesting that we sort of rely on it's interesting to to think whether the the the things to to think whether the the the things to to think whether the the the things that threaten us is the stuff we see that threaten us is the stuff we see that threaten us is the stuff we see that's happening gradually or the stuff that's happening gradually or the stuff that's happening gradually or the stuff we don't really see that's going to we don't really see that's going to we don't really see that's going to happen all of a sudden I sometimes like happen all of a sudden I sometimes like happen all of a sudden I sometimes like think about what is what should we be think about what is what should we be think about what is what should we be more worried about cuz it seems like more worried about cuz it seems like more worried about cuz it seems like like with the asteroids or nuclear war like with the asteroids or nuclear war like with the asteroids or nuclear war it could be stuff that just happens one it could be stuff that just happens one it could be stuff that just happens one day you know when I say one day meaning day you know when I say one day meaning day you know when I say one day meaning over a span of a few days or a few over a span of a few days or a few over a span of a few days or a few months but on a you know not on a scale months but on a you know not on a scale months but on a you know not on a scale of decades and of decades and of decades and centuries because we sometimes mostly centuries because we sometimes mostly centuries because we sometimes mostly talk about stuff that's happening talk about stuff that's happening talk about stuff that's happening gradually but we can be really gradually but we can be really gradually but we can be really surprised it's actually really surprised it's actually really surprised it's actually really interesting and that was actually one of interesting and that was actually one of interesting and that was actually one of the reasons it took a while to determine the reasons it took a while to determine the reasons it took a while to determine what it was that had caused the last what it was that had caused the last what it was that had caused the last extinction because people did think at extinction because people did think at extinction because people did think at the time many people thought that things the time many people thought that things the time many people thought that things were more gradual and the idea of were more gradual and the idea of were more gradual and the idea of Extinction was a very was actually a Extinction was a very was actually a Extinction was a very was actually a novel concept at some point you know I novel concept at some point you know I novel concept at some point you know I mean these aren't predictable events mean these aren't predictable events mean these aren't predictable events necessarily they're only predictable on

necessarily they're only predictable on necessarily they're only predictable on a grand scale um but sometimes sometimes a grand scale um but sometimes sometimes a grand scale um but sometimes sometimes they are and and I think people were they are and and I think people were they are and and I think people were pretty aware that nuclear um weapons pretty aware that nuclear um weapons pretty aware that nuclear um weapons were dangerous I'm not sure people are were dangerous I'm not sure people are were dangerous I'm not sure people are as aware now as they were you know say as aware now as they were you know say as aware now as they were you know say 20 or 30 years ago and that certainly 20 or 30 years ago and that certainly 20 or 30 years ago and that certainly worries me um I have to say I was not as worries me um I have to say I was not as worries me um I have to say I was not as worried about AI as other people but now worried about AI as other people but now worried about AI as other people but now I understand and it's not I mean it's I understand and it's not I mean it's I understand and it's not I mean it's more that as soon as you create things more that as soon as you create things more that as soon as you create things that we lose control over it's scary and that we lose control over it's scary and that we lose control over it's scary and the other thing that we're learning from the other thing that we're learning from the other thing that we're learning from the events today is that is that it the events today is that is that it the events today is that is that it takes a few bad actors it takes everyone takes a few bad actors it takes everyone takes a few bad actors it takes everyone to sort of make things work well well it to sort of make things work well well it to sort of make things work well well it takes not that many things to make takes not that many things to make takes not that many things to make things go wrong it's it's the issue with things go wrong it's it's the issue with things go wrong it's it's the issue with disease you know we can find out what disease you know we can find out what disease you know we can find out what causes a disease but to make things causes a disease but to make things causes a disease but to make things better is not necessarily that simple better is not necessarily that simple better is not necessarily that simple sometimes it is but for things to be sometimes it is but for things to be sometimes it is but for things to be healthy a lot of things have to work for healthy a lot of things have to work for healthy a lot of things have to work for things to go wrong only one thing has to things to go wrong only one thing has to things to go wrong only one thing has to go wrong and so it's amazing that we do go wrong and so it's amazing that we do go wrong and so it's amazing that we do it and the same is true for democracy it and the same is true for democracy it and the same is true for democracy for democracy to work a lot of people for democracy to work a lot of people for democracy to work a lot of people have to believe in it a few bad actors have to believe in it a few bad actors have to believe in it a few bad actors can destroy things sometimes so a lot of can destroy things sometimes so a lot of can destroy things sometimes so a lot of the things that we really rely on are the things that we really rely on are the things that we really rely on are delicate equilibrium situ some of you delicate equilibrium situ some of you delicate equilibrium situ some of you know and there is some robustness in the know and there is some robustness in the know and there is some robustness in the systems we try to build in robustness systems we try to build in robustness systems we try to build in robustness but a few extreme events can sometimes but a few extreme events can sometimes but a few extreme events can sometimes alter things and um I think that's what alter things and um I think that's what alter things and um I think that's what people are scared of today in many ways people are scared of today in many ways people are scared of today in many ways they're scared of it for democracy they're scared of it for democracy they're scared of it for democracy they're scared of it for peace they're

they're scared of it for peace they're they're scared of it for peace they're scared of it for AI I think they're not scared of it for AI I think they're not scared of it for AI I think they're not as scared as they should be about as scared as they should be about as scared as they should be about nuclear weapons to be honest um I think nuclear weapons to be honest um I think nuclear weapons to be honest um I think that's a more serious danger Than People that's a more serious danger Than People that's a more serious danger Than People realize um I think people are a little realize um I think people are a little realize um I think people are a little bit more scared about pandemics than bit more scared about pandemics than bit more scared about pandemics than they were before um but I still say they were before um but I still say they were before um but I still say they're not super scared about it so they're not super scared about it so they're not super scared about it so you're right there are these major you're right there are these major you're right there are these major events that can happen and we are events that can happen and we are events that can happen and we are setting things up so that they might setting things up so that they might setting things up so that they might happen and we should be thinking about happen and we should be thinking about happen and we should be thinking about them the question is who should be them the question is who should be them the question is who should be thinking about them how should we be thinking about them how should we be thinking about them how should we be thinking about them how do you make thinking about them how do you make thinking about them how do you make things happen on a global scale because things happen on a global scale because things happen on a global scale because that's really what we need it certainly that's really what we need it certainly that's really what we need it certainly shouldn't be a source of division it shouldn't be a source of division it shouldn't be a source of division it should be a source of grand should be a source of grand should be a source of grand collaboration probably wouldn't that be collaboration probably wouldn't that be collaboration probably wouldn't that be nice yeah I just wonder what it would be nice yeah I just wonder what it would be nice yeah I just wonder what it would be like a to be a dinosaur it must have like a to be a dinosaur it must have like a to be a dinosaur it must have been beautiful to like look at the been beautiful to like look at the been beautiful to like look at the asteroid just enter the atmosphere until asteroid just enter the atmosphere until asteroid just enter the atmosphere until like everything just man would I that like everything just man would I that like everything just man would I that would be one of the things I would would be one of the things I would would be one of the things I would travel back in time to you know that's travel back in time to you know that's travel back in time to you know that's also one of the things that I think you also one of the things that I think you also one of the things that I think you probably could do with virtual reality I probably could do with virtual reality I probably could do with virtual reality I don't think you have to be there and get don't think you have to be there and get don't think you have to be there and get extinct just experience it I think extinct just experience it I think extinct just experience it I think there's something you know it's an event there's something you know it's an event there's something you know it's an event you're just watching you're not doing you're just watching you're not doing you're just watching you're not doing anything you're just looking at it so anything you're just looking at it so anything you're just looking at it so maybe you could just recreate it I maybe you could just recreate it I maybe you could just recreate it I actually heard that there a there's a actually heard that there a there's a actually heard that there a there's a nuclear weapon explosion experience in nuclear weapon explosion experience in nuclear weapon explosion experience in virtual reality that's good to remind virtual reality that's good to remind virtual reality that's good to remind you about like what it would feel like I you about like what it would feel like I you about like what it would feel like I have to say you know so I got I got an have to say you know so I got I got an have to say you know so I got I got an award from the Museum of nuclear history award from the Museum of nuclear history award from the Museum of nuclear history and technology in the southwest and I

and technology in the southwest and I and technology in the southwest and I went to visit the museum which turned went to visit the museum which turned went to visit the museum which turned out to be mostly a museum of nuclear out to be mostly a museum of nuclear out to be mostly a museum of nuclear weapons and the scary thing is that they weapons and the scary thing is that they weapons and the scary thing is that they look really cool you know it's true that look really cool you know it's true that look really cool you know it's true that you have that yes this is scary but you you have that yes this is scary but you you have that yes this is scary but you also have this this is cool feeling and also have this this is cool feeling and also have this this is cool feeling and I think we have to get around that I think we have to get around that I think we have to get around that because you I kind of think that yes you because you I kind of think that yes you because you I kind of think that yes you can be in that but I'm not sure that's can be in that but I'm not sure that's can be in that but I'm not sure that's going to make people scared has it have going to make people scared has it have going to make people scared has it have they actually asked afterwards are you they actually asked afterwards are you they actually asked afterwards are you more or less scared yeah that's a good more or less scared yeah that's a good more or less scared yeah that's a good uh it's a really good point I mean uh it's a really good point I mean uh it's a really good point I mean that's a good summary of just Humanity that's a good summary of just Humanity that's a good summary of just Humanity in general in general in general we attracted to creating cool stuff even we attracted to creating cool stuff even we attracted to creating cool stuff even though it's can be dangerous and though it's can be dangerous and though it's can be dangerous and actually that was the really interesting actually that was the really interesting actually that was the really interesting thing about visiting that museum thing about visiting that museum thing about visiting that museum actually I it was very nice cuz I had a actually I it was very nice cuz I had a actually I it was very nice cuz I had a tour from people who had been working tour from people who had been working tour from people who had been working there in the cold war and actually one there in the cold war and actually one there in the cold war and actually one or two people from the Manhattan Project or two people from the Manhattan Project or two people from the Manhattan Project it was a very cool tour and you just it was a very cool tour and you just it was a very cool tour and you just realize just how just the thing itself realize just how just the thing itself realize just how just the thing itself gets you so excited I think that's gets you so excited I think that's gets you so excited I think that's something that sometimes these movies something that sometimes these movies something that sometimes these movies Miss just the thing itself you're not Miss just the thing itself you're not Miss just the thing itself you're not thinking about the the overall thinking about the the overall thinking about the the overall consequences and it was kind of like in consequences and it was kind of like in consequences and it was kind of like in some ways it was like the early Silicon some ways it was like the early Silicon some ways it was like the early Silicon Valley you know people were just Valley you know people were just Valley you know people were just thinking like what if we did this what thinking like what if we did this what thinking like what if we did this what if we did that and you know not keeping if we did that and you know not keeping if we did that and you know not keeping track of like what the peripheral track of like what the peripheral track of like what the peripheral consequences are and you definitely see consequences are and you definitely see consequences are and you definitely see that happening with AI now I mean I that happening with AI now I mean I that happening with AI now I mean I think that was the moral of the battle think that was the moral of the battle think that was the moral of the battle that just happened that you know it's that just happened that you know it's that just happened that you know it's just Full Speed Ahead which gives me a just Full Speed Ahead which gives me a just Full Speed Ahead which gives me a really great transition to another quote really great transition to another quote really great transition to another quote in your book so you you write about it in your book so you you write about it in your book so you you write about it the experience of facing the sublime in

the experience of facing the sublime in the experience of facing the sublime in physics and you quote uh Ryan physics and you quote uh Ryan physics and you quote uh Ryan AR quote for beauty is nothing but the AR quote for beauty is nothing but the AR quote for beauty is nothing but the beginning of Terror which we are still beginning of Terror which we are still beginning of Terror which we are still just able to endure and we're so OD just able to endure and we're so OD just able to endure and we're so OD because it's serenely disdains to because it's serenely disdains to because it's serenely disdains to annihilate us it's pretty intense it I annihilate us it's pretty intense it I annihilate us it's pretty intense it I think applies to nuclear weapons but it think applies to nuclear weapons but it think applies to nuclear weapons but it also I mean at a more mundane perhaps also I mean at a more mundane perhaps also I mean at a more mundane perhaps level I think it applies you know it's level I think it applies you know it's level I think it applies you know it's really interesting one of the things I really interesting one of the things I really interesting one of the things I found when I wrote these books is you found when I wrote these books is you found when I wrote these books is you know some people love certainty you know know some people love certainty you know know some people love certainty you know scientists kind of many Revel in scientists kind of many Revel in scientists kind of many Revel in uncertainty it's not that you want to be uncertainty it's not that you want to be uncertainty it's not that you want to be uncertain you want to solve it but uncertain you want to solve it but uncertain you want to solve it but you're at this Edge where it's really you're at this Edge where it's really you're at this Edge where it's really frustrating because you don't really frustrating because you don't really frustrating because you don't really want to not know the answer but of want to not know the answer but of want to not know the answer but of course if you knew the answer that would course if you knew the answer that would course if you knew the answer that would be it would be done so you're always at be it would be done so you're always at be it would be done so you're always at this Edge where there's you're trying to this Edge where there's you're trying to this Edge where there's you're trying to sort things out and there is something sort things out and there is something sort things out and there is something scary you don't know what is you don't scary you don't know what is you don't scary you don't know what is you don't know if there's going to be a solution know if there's going to be a solution know if there's going to be a solution you don't know if you're going to find you don't know if you're going to find you don't know if you're going to find it so it's not something that can it so it's not something that can it so it's not something that can destroy the Earth it's just something destroy the Earth it's just something destroy the Earth it's just something that you do on your individual level but that you do on your individual level but that you do on your individual level but then of course there are much bigger then of course there are much bigger then of course there are much bigger things like like the ones you're talking things like like the ones you're talking things like like the ones you're talking about where they could actually be about where they could actually be about where they could actually be dangerous the stuff I do I just want to dangerous the stuff I do I just want to dangerous the stuff I do I just want to be clear I'm doing theoretical physics be clear I'm doing theoretical physics be clear I'm doing theoretical physics not very dangerous um but sometimes not very dangerous um but sometimes not very dangerous um but sometimes things end up having bigger consequences things end up having bigger consequences things end up having bigger consequences than you think yeah than you think yeah than you think yeah but dangerous in a very pragmatic sense but dangerous in a very pragmatic sense but dangerous in a very pragmatic sense but isn't it still in part terrifying but isn't it still in part terrifying but isn't it still in part terrifying when you think of a just the size of when you think of a just the size of when you think of a just the size of things like the size of dark matter like

things like the size of dark matter like things like the size of dark matter like the the the power of this thing in terms the the the power of this thing in terms the the the power of this thing in terms of of of uh is is potential gravitational effects uh is is potential gravitational effects uh is is potential gravitational effects just this Co cosmological objects of a just this Co cosmological objects of a just this Co cosmological objects of a black hole at the center of our galaxy black hole at the center of our galaxy black hole at the center of our galaxy so this might be where why I'm a so this might be where why I'm a so this might be where why I'm a physicist or why I differ from other physicist or why I differ from other physicist or why I differ from other people because I'm not such a big fan of people because I'm not such a big fan of people because I'm not such a big fan of humanity in some ways some ways I am but humanity in some ways some ways I am but humanity in some ways some ways I am but the idea that we were everything would the idea that we were everything would the idea that we were everything would be really boring to me I love the idea be really boring to me I love the idea be really boring to me I love the idea that there's so much more out there that that there's so much more out there that that there's so much more out there that there's a bigger universe and there's there's a bigger universe and there's there's a bigger universe and there's lots to discover and that we're not all lots to discover and that we're not all lots to discover and that we're not all there is wouldn't it be disappointing if there is wouldn't it be disappointing if there is wouldn't it be disappointing if we were all there is yeah and the the we were all there is yeah and the the we were all there is yeah and the the full diversity of other stuff it's full diversity of other stuff it's full diversity of other stuff it's pretty interesting you know we have no pretty interesting you know we have no pretty interesting you know we have no idea how much there is you know we we idea how much there is you know we we idea how much there is you know we we know what we what we can observe so far know what we what we can observe so far know what we what we can observe so far so the idea that there's other stuff out so the idea that there's other stuff out so the idea that there's other stuff out there that we yet have to figure out there that we yet have to figure out there that we yet have to figure out it's exciting well let me ask you out it's exciting well let me ask you out it's exciting well let me ask you out there there there question okay so if you think of like question okay so if you think of like question okay so if you think of like humans on Earth life on Earth as this humans on Earth life on Earth as this humans on Earth life on Earth as this pocket of complexity that pocket of complexity that pocket of complexity that emerged you know and there's a bunch of emerged you know and there's a bunch of emerged you know and there's a bunch of conditions that came to be and there's conditions that came to be and there's conditions that came to be and there's uh darwinian Evolution and however life uh darwinian Evolution and however life uh darwinian Evolution and however life originated do you think it's possible originated do you think it's possible originated do you think it's possible there's some pockets of complexity of there's some pockets of complexity of there's some pockets of complexity of that sort inside dark matter we can't that sort inside dark matter we can't that sort inside dark matter we can't see well so that's see well so that's see well so that's possible um I chemistry and biology possible um I chemistry and biology possible um I chemistry and biology evolving in different ways and that's evolving in different ways and that's evolving in different ways and that's one of the reasons we suggest I mean one of the reasons we suggest I mean one of the reasons we suggest I mean it's not the reason but it would be true it's not the reason but it would be true it's not the reason but it would be true if there were the type of interactions

if there were the type of interactions if there were the type of interactions we suggest I mean it would need more we suggest I mean it would need more we suggest I mean it would need more complex ones and we don't know um I will complex ones and we don't know um I will complex ones and we don't know um I will say that the conditions that give rise say that the conditions that give rise say that the conditions that give rise to life and complexity they're complex to life and complexity they're complex to life and complexity they're complex they're unlikely um so it's not like they're unlikely um so it's not like they're unlikely um so it's not like there's great odds that would happen but there's great odds that would happen but there's great odds that would happen but there's no reason to know that it there's no reason to know that it there's no reason to know that it doesn't happen it's worth investigating doesn't happen it's worth investigating doesn't happen it's worth investigating are there other forces that exist in the are there other forces that exist in the are there other forces that exist in the dark matter sector that's exactly so the dark matter sector that's exactly so the dark matter sector that's exactly so the Dark Matter sector doesn't have all the Dark Matter sector doesn't have all the Dark Matter sector doesn't have all the forces of the the standard model of forces of the the standard model of forces of the the standard model of physics right as far as we know it physics right as far as we know it physics right as far as we know it doesn't have doesn't have doesn't have it might have it at some low level but it might have it at some low level but it might have it at some low level but it could have its own forces just like it could have its own forces just like it could have its own forces just like the dark matter might not experience our the dark matter might not experience our the dark matter might not experience our light maybe it has its light that we light maybe it has its light that we light maybe it has its light that we don't experience so there could be other don't experience so there could be other don't experience so there could be other kinds of forces I mean there could be kinds of forces I mean there could be kinds of forces I mean there could be other kinds of forces even within our other kinds of forces even within our other kinds of forces even within our sector that are too weak for us to have sector that are too weak for us to have sector that are too weak for us to have discovered so far or that exist at discovered so far or that exist at discovered so far or that exist at different scales than we know about I different scales than we know about I different scales than we know about I mean we detect what interacts strongly mean we detect what interacts strongly mean we detect what interacts strongly enough with our detectors to detect so enough with our detectors to detect so enough with our detectors to detect so it's worth asking and and that's one of it's worth asking and and that's one of it's worth asking and and that's one of the reasons we build big colliders to the reasons we build big colliders to the reasons we build big colliders to see are there other forces other see are there other forces other see are there other forces other particles that exist say at higher particles that exist say at higher particles that exist say at higher energies at shorter distance scales than energies at shorter distance scales than energies at shorter distance scales than we've explored so far so it's not just we've explored so far so it's not just we've explored so far so it's not just in the dark matter sector Even in our in the dark matter sector Even in our in the dark matter sector Even in our sector there could be a whole bunch of sector there could be a whole bunch of sector there could be a whole bunch of stuff we don't yet stuff we don't yet stuff we don't yet know so maybe let's zoom out look at the know so maybe let's zoom out look at the know so maybe let's zoom out look at the standard model of pH of particle physics standard model of pH of particle physics standard model of pH of particle physics how does Dark Matter fit into first of how does Dark Matter fit into first of how does Dark Matter fit into first of all what is it can you explain what the

all what is it can you explain what the all what is it can you explain what the standard model is so the standard model standard model is so the standard model standard model is so the standard model of particle physics is basically tells of particle physics is basically tells of particle physics is basically tells us about Nature's most basic elements us about Nature's most basic elements us about Nature's most basic elements and their interactions and so it's the and their interactions and so it's the and their interactions and so it's the substructure as far as we understand it substructure as far as we understand it substructure as far as we understand it so if you look at atoms we know they so if you look at atoms we know they so if you look at atoms we know they have nuclei and electrons nuclei have have nuclei and electrons nuclei have have nuclei and electrons nuclei have protons and neutrons in them protons and protons and neutrons in them protons and protons and neutrons in them protons and neutrons have particles called quirks neutrons have particles called quirks neutrons have particles called quirks that are held together by something that are held together by something that are held together by something called the strong force they interact called the strong force they interact called the strong force they interact through the strong force Force the through the strong force Force the through the strong force Force the strong nuclear force there something strong nuclear force there something strong nuclear force there something called the weak nuclear force and called the weak nuclear force and called the weak nuclear force and electromagnetism so basically all those electromagnetism so basically all those electromagnetism so basically all those particles and their interactions particles and their interactions particles and their interactions describe many many things we understand describe many many things we understand describe many many things we understand that's the standard model we now know that's the standard model we now know that's the standard model we now know about the higs boson which is associated about the higs boson which is associated about the higs boson which is associated with how Elementary particles get their with how Elementary particles get their with how Elementary particles get their Mass so that pce of the puzzle has also Mass so that pce of the puzzle has also Mass so that pce of the puzzle has also been been been completed we also know that there are completed we also know that there are completed we also know that there are kind of a weird array of masses of kind of a weird array of masses of kind of a weird array of masses of Elementary particles there's not just Elementary particles there's not just Elementary particles there's not just the up and down but there are heavier the up and down but there are heavier the up and down but there are heavier versions of the up and down cork charm versions of the up and down cork charm versions of the up and down cork charm and strange top and bottom there's not and strange top and bottom there's not and strange top and bottom there's not just the electron there's a muon and a just the electron there's a muon and a just the electron there's a muon and a tow there are particles called neutrinos tow there are particles called neutrinos tow there are particles called neutrinos which are under intense study now which which are under intense study now which which are under intense study now which are partnered with the leptons through are partnered with the leptons through are partnered with the leptons through the weak interactions so we really do the weak interactions so we really do the weak interactions so we really do know these basic know these basic know these basic elements and we know the forces we know elements and we know the forces we know elements and we know the forces we know I mean when we're doing particle physics I mean when we're doing particle physics I mean when we're doing particle physics experiments we can usually even ignore experiments we can usually even ignore experiments we can usually even ignore gravity except in exceptional cases that gravity except in exceptional cases that gravity except in exceptional cases that we can talk about so those are the basic

we can talk about so those are the basic we can talk about so those are the basic elements and their interactions Dark elements and their interactions Dark elements and their interactions Dark Matter stands outside that it's not Matter stands outside that it's not Matter stands outside that it's not interacting through those forces so when interacting through those forces so when interacting through those forces so when we look at the world around us we don't we look at the world around us we don't we look at the world around us we don't usually see the effects of dark matter usually see the effects of dark matter usually see the effects of dark matter it's because there's so much of it that it's because there's so much of it that it's because there's so much of it that we do and it doesn't have those forces we do and it doesn't have those forces we do and it doesn't have those forces that we know about but the standard that we know about but the standard that we know about but the standard model has worked spectacularly well it's model has worked spectacularly well it's model has worked spectacularly well it's been tested to a high degree of been tested to a high degree of been tested to a high degree of precision people are still testing it precision people are still testing it precision people are still testing it and one of the things we do as and one of the things we do as and one of the things we do as physicists is we actually want it to physicists is we actually want it to physicists is we actually want it to break down at some level we're looking break down at some level we're looking break down at some level we're looking for for for the Precision measurement or the energy the Precision measurement or the energy the Precision measurement or the energy or whatever it will take where those or whatever it will take where those or whatever it will take where those where the standard model is no longer where the standard model is no longer where the standard model is no longer working like not that it's not working working like not that it's not working working like not that it's not working approximately but we're looking for the approximately but we're looking for the approximately but we're looking for the deviations and those deviations are deviations and those deviations are deviations and those deviations are critical because they can tell us what critical because they can tell us what critical because they can tell us what underlies the standard model which is underlies the standard model which is underlies the standard model which is what we really want to see next where what we really want to see next where what we really want to see next where can you find the the places where the can you find the the places where the can you find the the places where the standard model breaks down like uh what standard model breaks down like uh what standard model breaks down like uh what are the what are the places you can see are the what are the places you can see are the what are the places you can see those tiny little deviations so we don't those tiny little deviations so we don't those tiny little deviations so we don't know yet but we know the kinds of things know yet but we know the kinds of things know yet but we know the kinds of things you wouldn't want to look for so one you wouldn't want to look for so one you wouldn't want to look for so one obvious place to look is at higher obvious place to look is at higher obvious place to look is at higher energy um we're looking at the large energy um we're looking at the large energy um we're looking at the large hron collider but we'd love to go beyond hron collider but we'd love to go beyond hron collider but we'd love to go beyond that higher energies means shorter that higher energies means shorter that higher energies means shorter distances and it means things that we distances and it means things that we distances and it means things that we just couldn't produce before I mean eals just couldn't produce before I mean eals just couldn't produce before I mean eals mc^2 so if you have a heavy particle and mc^2 so if you have a heavy particle and mc^2 so if you have a heavy particle and you don't have enough energy to make it you don't have enough energy to make it you don't have enough energy to make it you'll never see it so that's one place you'll never see it so that's one place you'll never see it so that's one place the other place is precision the other place is precision the other place is precision measurements if you you know the measurements if you you know the measurements if you you know the standard model has been tested standard model has been tested standard model has been tested exquisitly so if been if it's been exquisitly so if been if it's been exquisitly so if been if it's been tested 1% you want to look at a tenth of tested 1% you want to look at a tenth of tested 1% you want to look at a tenth of a percent MH and there are some

a percent MH and there are some a percent MH and there are some processes that we know shouldn't even processes that we know shouldn't even processes that we know shouldn't even happen at all in the standard model or happen at all in the standard model or happen at all in the standard model or happen at very suppressed level and happen at very suppressed level and happen at very suppressed level and those are other things that we look for those are other things that we look for those are other things that we look for so all of those things could indicate so all of those things could indicate so all of those things could indicate there's something beyond what we know there's something beyond what we know there's something beyond what we know about which of course would be very about which of course would be very about which of course would be very exciting when you just step back and exciting when you just step back and exciting when you just step back and look at the standard model the quirks look at the standard model the quirks look at the standard model the quirks and all the different particles and and all the different particles and and all the different particles and trinos trinos trinos and isn't it wild how this like little and isn't it wild how this like little and isn't it wild how this like little system came came to being creates is system came came to being creates is system came came to being creates is underpin depends everything we see underpin depends everything we see underpin depends everything we see absolutely and that's why we'd like to absolutely and that's why we'd like to absolutely and that's why we'd like to understand it better we want to know is understand it better we want to know is understand it better we want to know is it part of some bigger sector um why are it part of some bigger sector um why are it part of some bigger sector um why are these particles why do they have the these particles why do they have the these particles why do they have the masses they do yeah um why is the hibos masses they do yeah um why is the hibos masses they do yeah um why is the hibos on so light compared to the mass it on so light compared to the mass it on so light compared to the mass it could have had which we might have even could have had which we might have even could have had which we might have even expected based on the principles of expected based on the principles of expected based on the principles of special relativity in quantum mechanics special relativity in quantum mechanics special relativity in quantum mechanics so that's a really big question why are so that's a really big question why are so that's a really big question why are they what they are and and they they what they are and and they they what they are and and they originate there's like some mechanism originate there's like some mechanism originate there's like some mechanism that created the whole thing that's one that created the whole thing that's one that created the whole thing that's one of the things we're trying to study why of the things we're trying to study why of the things we're trying to study why why is it what it is I mean even just why is it what it is I mean even just why is it what it is I mean even just like the mechanism that creates stuff like the mechanism that creates stuff like the mechanism that creates stuff like the way a human being is Created like the way a human being is Created like the way a human being is Created from a single cell it's like embryo from a single cell it's like embryo from a single cell it's like embryo Genesis like the whole thing like bu you Genesis like the whole thing like bu you Genesis like the whole thing like bu you build up this build up this build up this thing all of it this whole thing comes thing all of it this whole thing comes thing all of it this whole thing comes to be from just like a don't forget it to be from just like a don't forget it to be from just like a don't forget it is interacting with the environment sure is interacting with the environment sure is interacting with the environment sure okay right right right it's not it's okay right right right it's not it's okay right right right it's not it's right it's important well that's a right it's important well that's a right it's important well that's a really good question is how much of it really good question is how much of it really good question is how much of it is the environment is it just just the

is the environment is it just just the is the environment is it just just the environment acting on a set of environment acting on a set of environment acting on a set of constraints constraints constraints and uh like how much of it is just the and uh like how much of it is just the and uh like how much of it is just the information in the DNA or the information in the DNA or the information in the DNA or the information how much is it in the information how much is it in the information how much is it in the initial conditions of the universe or uh initial conditions of the universe or uh initial conditions of the universe or uh versus the the some other thing acting versus the the some other thing acting versus the the some other thing acting on it these are Big questions these are on it these are Big questions these are on it these are Big questions these are Big questions in pretty much every field Big questions in pretty much every field Big questions in pretty much every field um you know we for the universe we do um you know we for the universe we do um you know we for the universe we do consider it you know it's everything consider it you know it's everything consider it you know it's everything there is by definition but people now there is by definition but people now there is by definition but people now think about it is it one of many think about it is it one of many think about it is it one of many universes um and of course it's a universes um and of course it's a universes um and of course it's a misnomer but could there be other places misnomer but could there be other places misnomer but could there be other places where there are self-contained where there are self-contained where there are self-contained gravitational systems that we don't even gravitational systems that we don't even gravitational systems that we don't even interact with so but those are really interact with so but those are really interact with so but those are really important questions and the only way important questions and the only way important questions and the only way we're going to answer them is you know we're going to answer them is you know we're going to answer them is you know we go back as far as we can we try to we go back as far as we can we try to we go back as far as we can we try to think theoretically and we try to think think theoretically and we try to think think theoretically and we try to think about observational consequences it's about observational consequences it's about observational consequences it's all we can do one interesting way to all we can do one interesting way to all we can do one interesting way to explore the standard models to look at explore the standard models to look at explore the standard models to look at your uh fun nuanced disagreement with your uh fun nuanced disagreement with your uh fun nuanced disagreement with with Carlo with Carlo with Carlo relli when you talked about him writing relli when you talked about him writing relli when you talked about him writing in his book electrons don't always exist in his book electrons don't always exist in his book electrons don't always exist they exist when they interact they they exist when they interact they they exist when they interact they materialize in a place when they collide materialize in a place when they collide materialize in a place when they collide with something else and you wrote that with something else and you wrote that with something else and you wrote that well I'll just read the whole thing cuz well I'll just read the whole thing cuz well I'll just read the whole thing cuz it's it's kind of interesting stocks may it's it's kind of interesting stocks may it's it's kind of interesting stocks may not achieve a precise value until they not achieve a precise value until they not achieve a precise value until they are traded but that doesn't mean we are traded but that doesn't mean we are traded but that doesn't mean we can't approximate their worth until they can't approximate their worth until they can't approximate their worth until they change hands similarly electrons might change hands similarly electrons might change hands similarly electrons might not have definite properties but they do not have definite properties but they do not have definite properties but they do exist it's true that the electron

exist it's true that the electron exist it's true that the electron doesn't exist as a classical object with doesn't exist as a classical object with doesn't exist as a classical object with definite position until the position is definite position until the position is definite position until the position is measured but something was there which measured but something was there which measured but something was there which physicists use a wave function to physicists use a wave function to physicists use a wave function to describe it's a fascinating Nuance describe it's a fascinating Nuance describe it's a fascinating Nuance disagreement so do electrons always disagreement so do electrons always disagreement so do electrons always exist or not does it does a tree fall in exist or not does it does a tree fall in exist or not does it does a tree fall in the forest if nobody's there to see it the forest if nobody's there to see it the forest if nobody's there to see it so I like to think of the universe is so I like to think of the universe is so I like to think of the universe is being out there whether or not I mean it being out there whether or not I mean it being out there whether or not I mean it would be really weird if the only time would be really weird if the only time would be really weird if the only time things came into existence was when I things came into existence was when I things came into existence was when I saw them or I measured them there's a saw them or I measured them there's a saw them or I measured them there's a lot of weird I mean I could believe that lot of weird I mean I could believe that lot of weird I mean I could believe that the Middle East doesn't exist because the Middle East doesn't exist because the Middle East doesn't exist because I'm not there now I mean that would be I'm not there now I mean that would be I'm not there now I mean that would be kind of ridiculous I think we would all kind of ridiculous I think we would all kind of ridiculous I think we would all agree on that so I think there's only so agree on that so I think there's only so agree on that so I think there's only so much that we can attribute to our own much that we can attribute to our own much that we can attribute to our own powers of seeing so and the whole system powers of seeing so and the whole system powers of seeing so and the whole system doesn't come into being because I'm doesn't come into being because I'm doesn't come into being because I'm measuring it and so what is weird and measuring it and so what is weird and measuring it and so what is weird and this isn't even a disagreement about the this isn't even a disagreement about the this isn't even a disagreement about the standard model this is agreement about standard model this is agreement about standard model this is agreement about how you interpret quantum mechanics I how you interpret quantum mechanics I how you interpret quantum mechanics I mean I would say that those wave mean I would say that those wave mean I would say that those wave functions are real I mean one of the functions are real I mean one of the functions are real I mean one of the things that forget that particle physics things that forget that particle physics things that forget that particle physics does that Quantum field Theory says is does that Quantum field Theory says is does that Quantum field Theory says is that electrons can be created and that electrons can be created and that electrons can be created and destroyed it's it's not that every destroyed it's it's not that every destroyed it's it's not that every electron has to be in the universe I electron has to be in the universe I electron has to be in the universe I mean there can be I mean that's what mean there can be I mean that's what mean there can be I mean that's what happens at collider is particles get happens at collider is particles get happens at collider is particles get created and destroyed um but that created and destroyed um but that created and destroyed um but that doesn't mean that if I electron in an doesn't mean that if I electron in an doesn't mean that if I electron in an atom it's not there it's certainly there atom it's not there it's certainly there atom it's not there it's certainly there and we know about it its charge is there and we know about it its charge is there and we know about it its charge is there so physics is a kind of way to see the so physics is a kind of way to see the so physics is a kind of way to see the world so what at the bottom what's the world so what at the bottom what's the world so what at the bottom what's the bottom Turtle like what do you have a bottom Turtle like what do you have a bottom Turtle like what do you have a sense that there's a bottom reality that

sense that there's a bottom reality that sense that there's a bottom reality that we're trying to approximate with physics we're trying to approximate with physics we're trying to approximate with physics I think we always have in our head maybe I think we always have in our head maybe I think we always have in our head maybe that we'd like to find that but I have that we'd like to find that but I have that we'd like to find that but I have to I mean I might not seem so but I to I mean I might not seem so but I to I mean I might not seem so but I think I'm kind of more humble than a lot think I'm kind of more humble than a lot think I'm kind of more humble than a lot of physicists I'm not sure that we're of physicists I'm not sure that we're of physicists I'm not sure that we're ever going to get to that bottom level ever going to get to that bottom level ever going to get to that bottom level but I do think we're going to keep but I do think we're going to keep but I do think we're going to keep penetrating different layers and get penetrating different layers and get penetrating different layers and get further I just wonder how far away we further I just wonder how far away we further I just wonder how far away we are you know we all wonder that um it's are you know we all wonder that um it's are you know we all wonder that um it's not even like what's even the measure of not even like what's even the measure of not even like what's even the measure of how far away we are I mean one way you how far away we are I mean one way you how far away we are I mean one way you can measure it is just by our everyday can measure it is just by our everyday can measure it is just by our everyday lives in terms of our everyday lives lives in terms of our everyday lives lives in terms of our everyday lives we've measured everything in terms of we've measured everything in terms of we've measured everything in terms of what underlies it there's a lot more to what underlies it there's a lot more to what underlies it there's a lot more to see and so part of it has to do with how see and so part of it has to do with how see and so part of it has to do with how far we think we can go I mean it might far we think we can go I mean it might far we think we can go I mean it might be that the nature of reality changes so be that the nature of reality changes so be that the nature of reality changes so much that even these terms are different much that even these terms are different much that even these terms are different maybe we measure you know this the maybe we measure you know this the maybe we measure you know this the notion of distance itself might break notion of distance itself might break notion of distance itself might break down at some point but also to push back down at some point but also to push back down at some point but also to push back on the we've measured everything maybe on the we've measured everything maybe on the we've measured everything maybe there's stuff we haven't even considered there's stuff we haven't even considered there's stuff we haven't even considered as measurable for example Consciousness as measurable for example Consciousness as measurable for example Consciousness or did or did or did there's there might be stuff just like there's there might be stuff just like there's there might be stuff just like you said forces unseen undetected so you said forces unseen undetected so you said forces unseen undetected so it's an interesting thing so one and it's an interesting thing so one and it's an interesting thing so one and this is often a confusion that happens this is often a confusion that happens this is often a confusion that happens so there's sort of the fundamental stuff so there's sort of the fundamental stuff so there's sort of the fundamental stuff underlying it and then there's sort of underlying it and then there's sort of underlying it and then there's sort of the higher levels what you know what the higher levels what you know what the higher levels what you know what we'll call like an effective Theory at we'll call like an effective Theory at we'll call like an effective Theory at some level you know so we're not always some level you know so we're not always some level you know so we're not always working I mean when I throw a ball I working I mean when I throw a ball I working I mean when I throw a ball I don't tell you where every atom is I don't tell you where every atom is I don't tell you where every atom is I tell you there's a ball and so there tell you there's a ball and so there tell you there's a ball and so there might be different layers of reality might be different layers of reality might be different layers of reality that are built on ter terms of the that are built on ter terms of the that are built on ter terms of the matter that we know about in terms of matter that we know about in terms of matter that we know about in terms of the stuff we know about that and when I

the stuff we know about that and when I the stuff we know about that and when I say we've measured everything I I say say we've measured everything I I say say we've measured everything I I say that with a grain of salt I mean I that with a grain of salt I mean I that with a grain of salt I mean I measure everything St so so there's lots measure everything St so so there's lots measure everything St so so there's lots of phenomena that we don't understand of phenomena that we don't understand of phenomena that we don't understand that we but often there are complex that we but often there are complex that we but often there are complex phenomena that will be given in terms of phenomena that will be given in terms of phenomena that will be given in terms of the fundamental ingredients that we know the fundamental ingredients that we know the fundamental ingredients that we know about but that is an interesting about but that is an interesting about but that is an interesting question because yes there's phenomena question because yes there's phenomena question because yes there's phenomena that are at the higher level of that are at the higher level of that are at the higher level of abstractions that emerge but maybe like abstractions that emerge but maybe like abstractions that emerge but maybe like with consciousness there is far out with consciousness there is far out with consciousness there is far out people that you know think that people that you know think that people that you know think that Consciousness is um panus right that Consciousness is um panus right that Consciousness is um panus right that it's there's going to be almost like a it's there's going to be almost like a it's there's going to be almost like a fundamental force of physics that's fundamental force of physics that's fundamental force of physics that's Consciousness that prates all matter Consciousness that prates all matter Consciousness that prates all matter right usually when you have a crazy right usually when you have a crazy right usually when you have a crazy sorry okay when you have a far out sorry okay when you have a far out sorry okay when you have a far out theory yes the thing you do is you test theory yes the thing you do is you test theory yes the thing you do is you test all the possibilities within the all the possibilities within the all the possibilities within the constructs that exist yeah so you don't constructs that exist yeah so you don't constructs that exist yeah so you don't just jump to the most far out just jump to the most far out just jump to the most far out possibility I mean you can do that but possibility I mean you can do that but possibility I mean you can do that but then to see if it's true you either have then to see if it's true you either have then to see if it's true you either have to find evidence of it or you have to to find evidence of it or you have to to find evidence of it or you have to show that it's not possible without show that it's not possible without show that it's not possible without that uh and we're very far from that I that uh and we're very far from that I that uh and we're very far from that I think one of the criticisms of your think one of the criticisms of your think one of the criticisms of your theory on the dinosaurs was that it theory on the dinosaurs was that it theory on the dinosaurs was that it requires if I remember correctly for requires if I remember correctly for requires if I remember correctly for dark matter to be weirder than it dark matter to be weirder than it dark matter to be weirder than it already is and then I think you had a already is and then I think you had a already is and then I think you had a clever response to that can you can you clever response to that can you can you clever response to that can you can you remind I'm not sure I remember what I remind I'm not sure I remember what I remind I'm not sure I remember what I said then but I mean we have no idea how said then but I mean we have no idea how said then but I mean we have no idea how weird dark batter is I mean it's based weird dark batter is I mean it's based weird dark batter is I mean it's based on everyone thinking they know what dark on everyone thinking they know what dark on everyone thinking they know what dark matter is I mean so weirder than it matter is I mean so weirder than it matter is I mean so weirder than it already is I mean it's not already already is I mean it's not already already is I mean it's not already anything thing we don't know what it is anything thing we don't know what it is anything thing we don't know what it is so there's no normalization so there's no normalization so there's no normalization here so dark matter do we know that if

here so dark matter do we know that if here so dark matter do we know that if Dark Matter varies in density it Dark Matter varies in density it Dark Matter varies in density it certainly does in the universe just like certainly does in the universe just like certainly does in the universe just like I mean so for example there's more dark I mean so for example there's more dark I mean so for example there's more dark matter in galaxies than there is between matter in galaxies than there is between matter in galaxies than there is between galaxies so it it it clumps I mean it's galaxies so it it it clumps I mean it's galaxies so it it it clumps I mean it's so it's it's matter so it's distributed so it's it's matter so it's distributed so it's it's matter so it's distributed like matter it is matter it does Clump like matter it is matter it does Clump like matter it is matter it does Clump but the the uh the full details of how but the the uh the full details of how but the the uh the full details of how it clumps and the complexity of the it clumps and the complexity of the it clumps and the complexity of the clumping it's understood clumping it's understood clumping it's understood pretty well people do simulations there pretty well people do simulations there pretty well people do simulations there I mean where where people are are always I mean where where people are are always I mean where where people are are always looking for things including us as looking for things including us as looking for things including us as particle physics it's sort of at small particle physics it's sort of at small particle physics it's sort of at small scales are the deviations on small scales are the deviations on small scales are the deviations on small scales so that indicating other scales so that indicating other scales so that indicating other interactions or other processes or interactions or other processes or interactions or other processes or interactions with Barons that is to say interactions with Barons that is to say interactions with Barons that is to say normal matter that we don't understand normal matter that we don't understand normal matter that we don't understand but on large scales we have a pretty but on large scales we have a pretty but on large scales we have a pretty good understanding of Dark Matter good understanding of Dark Matter good understanding of Dark Matter distribution you were part of a recent distribution you were part of a recent distribution you were part of a recent debate on quote cons science uncover debate on quote cons science uncover debate on quote cons science uncover reality let me ask you this question reality let me ask you this question reality let me ask you this question then uh what do you think is the limits then uh what do you think is the limits then uh what do you think is the limits of of of science I'm smart enough to know I have science I'm smart enough to know I have science I'm smart enough to know I have no idea and also it's not even clear no idea and also it's not even clear no idea and also it's not even clear what science means right because there's what science means right because there's what science means right because there's the science that we do which is partical the science that we do which is partical the science that we do which is partical physics we try to find fundamental physics we try to find fundamental physics we try to find fundamental things and figure out what their effects things and figure out what their effects things and figure out what their effects are there science like biology where you are there science like biology where you are there science like biology where you know it's at a higher level the kind of know it's at a higher level the kind of know it's at a higher level the kind of questions you ask are different the kind questions you ask are different the kind questions you ask are different the kind of measurements are different um the of measurements are different um the of measurements are different um the kind of science that's going to happen kind of science that's going to happen kind of science that's going to happen in the sort of more numerical age I mean in the sort of more numerical age I mean in the sort of more numerical age I mean or even AI or like what does it mean to or even AI or like what does it mean to or even AI or like what does it mean to answer a question does it mean that we answer a question does it mean that we answer a question does it mean that we can predict it does it mean we can can predict it does it mean we can can predict it does it mean we can reproduce it so I think we're coming up

reproduce it so I think we're coming up reproduce it so I think we're coming up against sort of the definition of what against sort of the definition of what against sort of the definition of what we mean by science as human beings so in we mean by science as human beings so in we mean by science as human beings so in terms of the science that we can do I I terms of the science that we can do I I terms of the science that we can do I I don't think we'll know it until we get don't think we'll know it until we get don't think we'll know it until we get there um you know we're trying to solve there um you know we're trying to solve there um you know we're trying to solve hard problems and you know we've made hard problems and you know we've made hard problems and you know we've made progress I mean if you think of how much progress I mean if you think of how much progress I mean if you think of how much science has advanced in the last century science has advanced in the last century science has advanced in the last century or century and a half it's incredible I or century and a half it's incredible I or century and a half it's incredible I mean you know we didn't even know the mean you know we didn't even know the mean you know we didn't even know the universe was expanding at the beginning universe was expanding at the beginning universe was expanding at the beginning of the 20th century we didn't know about of the 20th century we didn't know about of the 20th century we didn't know about quantum mechanics at the beginning of quantum mechanics at the beginning of quantum mechanics at the beginning of the century we didn't know about special the century we didn't know about special the century we didn't know about special relativity that's a lot in a relatively relativity that's a lot in a relatively relativity that's a lot in a relatively short time on depending on how you think short time on depending on how you think short time on depending on how you think of time um so I think it would be of time um so I think it would be of time um so I think it would be premature to say we know the limitations premature to say we know the limitations premature to say we know the limitations and at various points throughout that and at various points throughout that and at various points throughout that history we thought we solved everything history we thought we solved everything history we thought we solved everything or declared or at least various people or declared or at least various people or declared or at least various people various people exactly yeah declared various people exactly yeah declared various people exactly yeah declared that we've solved everything uh so this that we've solved everything uh so this that we've solved everything uh so this also a good place to maybe could you also a good place to maybe could you also a good place to maybe could you describe the difference between top down describe the difference between top down describe the difference between top down and bottom up approaches to theoretical and bottom up approaches to theoretical and bottom up approaches to theoretical physics that you talked about in the physics that you talked about in the physics that you talked about in the book so you could try to jump in and say book so you could try to jump in and say book so you could try to jump in and say I have a theory that I think is so I have a theory that I think is so I have a theory that I think is so perfect um that I can predict everything perfect um that I can predict everything perfect um that I can predict everything from it or at least predict some salian from it or at least predict some salian from it or at least predict some salian features from it that's top down that features from it that's top down that features from it that's top down that would be top down bottom up is more like would be top down bottom up is more like would be top down bottom up is more like you know like the questions we just ask you know like the questions we just ask you know like the questions we just ask why your masses what they are we measure why your masses what they are we measure why your masses what they are we measure things we want to put them together mhm things we want to put them together mhm things we want to put them together mhm and usually a good approach is to and usually a good approach is to and usually a good approach is to combine the two if you ask a very combine the two if you ask a very combine the two if you ask a very specific question but combine it with specific question but combine it with specific question but combine it with the methods of knowing that there could the methods of knowing that there could the methods of knowing that there could be a fundamental Theory underlying it

be a fundamental Theory underlying it be a fundamental Theory underlying it sometimes you make progress I mean some sometimes you make progress I mean some sometimes you make progress I mean some you know the community tends to get you know the community tends to get you know the community tends to get segmented or fragmented into people who segmented or fragmented into people who segmented or fragmented into people who do one or the other but there are do one or the other but there are do one or the other but there are definitely times I mean some of my best definitely times I mean some of my best definitely times I mean some of my best collaborations have with with people who collaborations have with with people who collaborations have with with people who were more top down than I am so that we were more top down than I am so that we were more top down than I am so that we come up with interesting ideas that we come up with interesting ideas that we come up with interesting ideas that we wouldn't have thought of if either one wouldn't have thought of if either one wouldn't have thought of if either one of us was working individually would you of us was working individually would you of us was working individually would you say the truly big leaps happen top down say the truly big leaps happen top down say the truly big leaps happen top down like Einstein Einstein was not a top like Einstein Einstein was not a top like Einstein Einstein was not a top down person in the beginning he was um down person in the beginning he was um down person in the beginning he was um special relativity was very much him special relativity was very much him special relativity was very much him thinking about you know they were thinking about you know they were thinking about you know they were thought experiments but he was very much thought experiments but he was very much thought experiments but he was very much you know the original theory about you know the original theory about you know the original theory about relativity is something like on the relativity is something like on the relativity is something like on the nature of electromagnetism he was trying nature of electromagnetism he was trying nature of electromagnetism he was trying to understand how Maxwell's laws could to understand how Maxwell's laws could to understand how Maxwell's laws could make sense when they were you know seem make sense when they were you know seem make sense when they were you know seem to have different symmetries than what to have different symmetries than what to have different symmetries than what we had thought they were so he was very we had thought they were so he was very we had thought they were so he was very much about bottom up person and in fact much about bottom up person and in fact much about bottom up person and in fact he resisted top down for a long time he resisted top down for a long time he resisted top down for a long time then when he tried to do the theory of then when he tried to do the theory of then when he tried to do the theory of general relativity or the general theory general relativity or the general theory general relativity or the general theory of relativity whichever you want to call of relativity whichever you want to call of relativity whichever you want to call it um incorporating gravity into the it um incorporating gravity into the it um incorporating gravity into the system where you need some feedback then system where you need some feedback then system where you need some feedback then he was helped by a mathematician who had he was helped by a mathematician who had he was helped by a mathematician who had developed some differential geometry and developed some differential geometry and developed some differential geometry and helped him figure out how to write down helped him figure out how to write down helped him figure out how to write down that and after that he thought top down that and after that he thought top down that and after that he thought top down was the way to go but he actually didn't was the way to go but he actually didn't was the way to go but he actually didn't make that much progress um but certainly make that much progress um but certainly make that much progress um but certainly so I think it's you know naive to think so I think it's you know naive to think so I think it's you know naive to think it was just one or the other in fact a it was just one or the other in fact a it was just one or the other in fact a lot of people who made real progress lot of people who made real progress lot of people who made real progress were rooted in actual measurements well were rooted in actual measurements well were rooted in actual measurements well speaking of mathematicians uh what to speaking of mathematicians uh what to speaking of mathematicians uh what to use a difference because you've had a use a difference because you've had a use a difference because you've had a bit of foot in both uh between physics

bit of foot in both uh between physics bit of foot in both uh between physics and Mathematics in the way it helps us and Mathematics in the way it helps us and Mathematics in the way it helps us understand the world well there's to be understand the world well there's to be understand the world well there's to be frank there's a lot more overlap in frank there's a lot more overlap in frank there's a lot more overlap in physics and math I think than has been I physics and math I think than has been I physics and math I think than has been I mean well maybe not more but there's mean well maybe not more but there's mean well maybe not more but there's certainly a lot but I think again the certainly a lot but I think again the certainly a lot but I think again the kinds of questions you're asking are kinds of questions you're asking are kinds of questions you're asking are usually different um mathematicians like usually different um mathematicians like usually different um mathematicians like the structure at itself physicists are the structure at itself physicists are the structure at itself physicists are trying to concentrate on to some extent trying to concentrate on to some extent trying to concentrate on to some extent on the consequences for the world um but on the consequences for the world um but on the consequences for the world um but there is a lot of overlap the string there is a lot of overlap the string there is a lot of overlap the string theory is an example there's certain theory is an example there's certain theory is an example there's certain theories where there's a a certain kind theories where there's a a certain kind theories where there's a a certain kind of mathematical Beauty to it there's of mathematical Beauty to it there's of mathematical Beauty to it there's also you know there's also some really also you know there's also some really also you know there's also some really cool ideas that you get in particle cool ideas that you get in particle cool ideas that you get in particle physics where you can describe what's physics where you can describe what's physics where you can describe what's going on and connect it to other ideas going on and connect it to other ideas going on and connect it to other ideas that's also really beautiful um you know that's also really beautiful um you know that's also really beautiful um you know I think I think basically insights can I think I think basically insights can I think I think basically insights can be beautiful um you know they might seem be beautiful um you know they might seem be beautiful um you know they might seem simple but sometime and sometimes they simple but sometime and sometimes they simple but sometime and sometimes they genuinely are and sometimes they're genuinely are and sometimes they're genuinely are and sometimes they're built on a whole system that you have to built on a whole system that you have to built on a whole system that you have to understand before I mean if you actually understand before I mean if you actually understand before I mean if you actually saw Einstein's equations written out in saw Einstein's equations written out in saw Einstein's equations written out in components you wouldn't think it's so components you wouldn't think it's so components you wouldn't think it's so beautiful you write it in a compact way beautiful you write it in a compact way beautiful you write it in a compact way it looks nice uh what do you think about it looks nice uh what do you think about it looks nice uh what do you think about the successes and the failures of string the successes and the failures of string the successes and the failures of string theory to what degree do you think it's theory to what degree do you think it's theory to what degree do you think it's succeeded to what degree is it not succeeded to what degree is it not succeeded to what degree is it not succeeded yet or has failed I think to succeeded yet or has failed I think to succeeded yet or has failed I think to talk about any science in terms of talk about any science in terms of talk about any science in terms of success and failure often misses the success and failure often misses the success and failure often misses the point because there's not some absolute point because there's not some absolute point because there's not some absolute thing and I think I do think that thing and I think I do think that thing and I think I do think that strength theorists were a bit overly strength theorists were a bit overly strength theorists were a bit overly ambitious not overly ambitious but a

ambitious not overly ambitious but a ambitious not overly ambitious but a little bit overly arrogant in the little bit overly arrogant in the little bit overly arrogant in the beginning thinking they could solve many beginning thinking they could solve many beginning thinking they could solve many problems that they weren't going to problems that they weren't going to problems that they weren't going to solve that's not to say the methods and solve that's not to say the methods and solve that's not to say the methods and um advances in strength Theory don't um advances in strength Theory don't um advances in strength Theory don't exist and um but they certainly weren't exist and um but they certainly weren't exist and um but they certainly weren't able to immediately solve all the able to immediately solve all the able to immediately solve all the problems they thought they could solve problems they thought they could solve problems they thought they could solve but it has given us tools it has given but it has given us tools it has given but it has given us tools it has given us some insights um but it becomes us some insights um but it becomes us some insights um but it becomes almost a sociological question of like almost a sociological question of like almost a sociological question of like how much it should be one or the other I how much it should be one or the other I how much it should be one or the other I do think that you can get caught up in do think that you can get caught up in do think that you can get caught up in the problems themselves and and the problems themselves and and the problems themselves and and sometimes you can get caught up in the sometimes you can get caught up in the sometimes you can get caught up in the methods and just sort of do other methods and just sort of do other methods and just sort of do other examples so the real physics insights examples so the real physics insights examples so the real physics insights often come from people who are thinking often come from people who are thinking often come from people who are thinking about physics as well as as math because about physics as well as as math because about physics as well as as math because you mention AI is there you mention AI is there you mention AI is there hope that AI might be able to help find some interesting insights I mean find some interesting insights I mean another question another way to ask this another question another way to ask this another question another way to ask this question is how special are humans that question is how special are humans that question is how special are humans that were able to discover novel insights were able to discover novel insights were able to discover novel insights about the about the about the world that's a great question um and it world that's a great question um and it world that's a great question um and it depends what kind of insights and we're depends what kind of insights and we're depends what kind of insights and we're going to find that out I mean you know going to find that out I mean you know going to find that out I mean you know it's because it's hard to think about it's because it's hard to think about it's because it's hard to think about something that doesn't quite exist yet I something that doesn't quite exist yet I something that doesn't quite exist yet I mean I could just think about something mean I could just think about something mean I could just think about something take a step back you know it's a little take a step back you know it's a little take a step back you know it's a little bit like trying to understand three four bit like trying to understand three four bit like trying to understand three four dimensions you go back to three dimensions you go back to three dimensions you go back to three dimension you know so go to something dimension you know so go to something dimension you know so go to something you can imagine so you can sort of say a you can imagine so you can sort of say a you can imagine so you can sort of say a lot of the things in a very different lot of the things in a very different lot of the things in a very different level about the internet you can say you level about the internet you can say you level about the internet you can say you know has the internet helped do things

know has the internet helped do things know has the internet helped do things and that you know it definitely took on and that you know it definitely took on and that you know it definitely took on a life of its own in some sense but it's a life of its own in some sense but it's a life of its own in some sense but it's also something that we're able to tame also something that we're able to tame also something that we're able to tame you know I know that I myself wouldn't you know I know that I myself wouldn't you know I know that I myself wouldn't have been able to write books if the have been able to write books if the have been able to write books if the internet didn't exist because I wouldn't internet didn't exist because I wouldn't internet didn't exist because I wouldn't have had the time to go to the library have had the time to go to the library have had the time to go to the library and look everything up and um it helped and look everything up and um it helped and look everything up and um it helped me enormously and in some sense AI could me enormously and in some sense AI could me enormously and in some sense AI could be that in a very nice World it could be be that in a very nice World it could be be that in a very nice World it could be a tool that helps us go a step further a tool that helps us go a step further a tool that helps us go a step further or than we would and a lot more or than we would and a lot more or than we would and a lot more efficiently and it's already done that efficiently and it's already done that efficiently and it's already done that to some extent or it could be like the to some extent or it could be like the to some extent or it could be like the parts of the internet that we can't parts of the internet that we can't parts of the internet that we can't control that are ruining politics or control that are ruining politics or control that are ruining politics or whatever so and there's certainly a lot whatever so and there's certainly a lot whatever so and there's certainly a lot of indications that can do that then of indications that can do that then of indications that can do that then there are even bigger things that you there are even bigger things that you there are even bigger things that you know people speculate about about AI know people speculate about about AI know people speculate about about AI being able to do its own things but in being able to do its own things but in being able to do its own things but in terms of actually figuring things out um terms of actually figuring things out um terms of actually figuring things out um you know we're in the early you know we're in the early you know we're in the early stages yeah there's several directions stages yeah there's several directions stages yeah there's several directions here one is like on the theorem prover here one is like on the theorem prover here one is like on the theorem prover side so wolf from alpha where everything side so wolf from alpha where everything side so wolf from alpha where everything is much more precise and when you have is much more precise and when you have is much more precise and when you have large language model type of large language model type of large language model type of stuff one of the limitations of those is stuff one of the limitations of those is stuff one of the limitations of those is it seems to come up with convincing it seems to come up with convincing it seems to come up with convincing looking things which we don't know if looking things which we don't know if looking things which we don't know if it's true or not right and that's a big it's true or not right and that's a big it's true or not right and that's a big problem for physics so large languin problem for physics so large languin problem for physics so large languin models are more or less like models are more or less like models are more or less like generalizations of stuff that we have so generalizations of stuff that we have so generalizations of stuff that we have so the question is so there's still the question is so there's still the question is so there's still breakthroughs in AI waiting to happen breakthroughs in AI waiting to happen breakthroughs in AI waiting to happen and maybe they are happening and maybe and maybe they are happening and maybe and maybe they are happening and maybe they'll be good maybe not but that's not they'll be good maybe not but that's not they'll be good maybe not but that's not quite the same I mean maybe just some in

quite the same I mean maybe just some in quite the same I mean maybe just some in some cases it's just pattern recognition some cases it's just pattern recognition some cases it's just pattern recognition that leads to important things but that leads to important things but that leads to important things but sometimes it could be something more sometimes it could be something more sometimes it could be something more insightful than that that I can't even insightful than that that I can't even insightful than that that I can't even put my finger on so it forces us to I put my finger on so it forces us to I put my finger on so it forces us to I mean we don't really understand how mean we don't really understand how mean we don't really understand how smart we are we don't understand how we smart we are we don't understand how we smart we are we don't understand how we think about things all that well think about things all that well think about things all that well actually but one thing is true that we actually but one thing is true that we actually but one thing is true that we are a lot more efficient right now than are a lot more efficient right now than are a lot more efficient right now than computers and coming up with things we computers and coming up with things we computers and coming up with things we require a lot less energy to do that so require a lot less energy to do that so require a lot less energy to do that so if computers figure out how to do that if computers figure out how to do that if computers figure out how to do that then it's going to be a totally then it's going to be a totally then it's going to be a totally different ball game so and so there are different ball game so and so there are different ball game so and so there are clearly kinds of connections that we clearly kinds of connections that we clearly kinds of connections that we don't know how we're making but we are don't know how we're making but we are don't know how we're making but we are making them and so that's going to be making them and so that's going to be making them and so that's going to be interesting so um you know I say we're interesting so um you know I say we're interesting so um you know I say we're in early stages but this is changing in early stages but this is changing in early stages but this is changing very rapidly but right now I don't think very rapidly but right now I don't think very rapidly but right now I don't think that it's actually you know we that it's actually you know we that it's actually you know we discovered like new laws of physics but discovered like new laws of physics but discovered like new laws of physics but could in the future maybe it can it will could in the future maybe it can it will could in the future maybe it can it will raise big questions raise big questions raise big questions about what is special about humans that about what is special about humans that about what is special about humans that we don't quite appreciate you know with we don't quite appreciate you know with we don't quite appreciate you know with there could be things that are like that there could be things that are like that there could be things that are like that leap of insight that happens truly novel leap of insight that happens truly novel leap of insight that happens truly novel ideas that could potentially be very ideas that could potentially be very ideas that could potentially be very difficult to do difficult to do difficult to do so there are sort of abstract questions so there are sort of abstract questions so there are sort of abstract questions like that there's also questions of how like that there's also questions of how like that there's also questions of how is it that we can address to some extent is it that we can address to some extent is it that we can address to some extent you know how will AI be used in the you know how will AI be used in the you know how will AI be used in the context of the world we live in which is context of the world we live in which is context of the world we live in which is based on you know at least our country based on you know at least our country based on you know at least our country is based on capitalism and a certain

is based on capitalism and a certain is based on capitalism and a certain political system and how will global political system and how will global political system and how will global politics deal with it how will our politics deal with it how will our politics deal with it how will our capitalist system deal with it what will capitalist system deal with it what will capitalist system deal with it what will be the things that we focus on doing be the things that we focus on doing be the things that we focus on doing with it how much will researchers get with it how much will researchers get with it how much will researchers get control of it um to be able to ask control of it um to be able to ask control of it um to be able to ask different sorts of questions I mean you different sorts of questions I mean you different sorts of questions I mean you know while it was starting out people know while it was starting out people know while it was starting out people were doing these kind of toy problems were doing these kind of toy problems were doing these kind of toy problems but what will it actually be applied to but what will it actually be applied to but what will it actually be applied to and what will it be optimized to do and what will it be optimized to do and what will it be optimized to do there's there's a lot of questions out there's there's a lot of questions out there's there's a lot of questions out there that it's really important we there that it's really important we there that it's really important we start start start addressing uh what to you addressing uh what to you addressing uh what to you is the most beautiful unsolved problem is the most beautiful unsolved problem is the most beautiful unsolved problem in physics in cosmology what you is in physics in cosmology what you is in physics in cosmology what you is really exciting if we can unlock the really exciting if we can unlock the really exciting if we can unlock the mystery of in the next few mystery of in the next few mystery of in the next few decades um so is it what's the most decades um so is it what's the most decades um so is it what's the most beautiful unsolved problem or what is beautiful unsolved problem or what is beautiful unsolved problem or what is the most beautiful unsolved problem I the most beautiful unsolved problem I the most beautiful unsolved problem I think we can make progress think we can make progress think we can make progress on oh boy we make progress on in the on oh boy we make progress on in the on oh boy we make progress on in the next few next few next few centuries there's you know this most of centuries there's you know this most of centuries there's you know this most of the questions the big questions have to the questions the big questions have to the questions the big questions have to do with what underlies things how things do with what underlies things how things do with what underlies things how things started what's at the base of it there's started what's at the base of it there's started what's at the base of it there's also just basic questions like how that also just basic questions like how that also just basic questions like how that you asked earlier how far will science you asked earlier how far will science you asked earlier how far will science take us how much can we understand take us how much can we understand take us how much can we understand um there are questions like how we got um there are questions like how we got um there are questions like how we got here um what underlies it are there you here um what underlies it are there you here um what underlies it are there you know but also I mean there's really deep know but also I mean there's really deep know but also I mean there's really deep questions like you know what fraction questions like you know what fraction questions like you know what fraction are we actually seeing if there are are we actually seeing if there are are we actually seeing if there are these other forces if there is another these other forces if there is another these other forces if there is another way of seeing the world are there G you

way of seeing the world are there G you way of seeing the world are there G you know universes beyond their own they're know universes beyond their own they're know universes beyond their own they're if they're so totally different how do if they're so totally different how do if they're so totally different how do we even comprehend them I mean how do we we even comprehend them I mean how do we we even comprehend them I mean how do we detect like what would we even think detect like what would we even think detect like what would we even think about them about them about them so there's a lot about trying to get so there's a lot about trying to get so there's a lot about trying to get Beyond it's always just getting beyond Beyond it's always just getting beyond Beyond it's always just getting beyond our limited vision and limited our limited vision and limited our limited vision and limited experience and trying to see what experience and trying to see what experience and trying to see what underlies it both it's small scales and underlies it both it's small scales and underlies it both it's small scales and at large scales we just don't know the at large scales we just don't know the at large scales we just don't know the answers I mean I'd like to think that answers I mean I'd like to think that answers I mean I'd like to think that we' understand more about Dark Matter we' understand more about Dark Matter we' understand more about Dark Matter about Dark Energy about are there extra about Dark Energy about are there extra about Dark Energy about are there extra Dimensions things that we actually work Dimensions things that we actually work Dimensions things that we actually work on but there probably a lot beyond what on but there probably a lot beyond what on but there probably a lot beyond what we work on that's yet to be we work on that's yet to be we work on that's yet to be discovered yeah understanding the extra discovered yeah understanding the extra discovered yeah understanding the extra Dimensions Dimensions Dimensions piece will be really interesting thing piece will be really interesting thing piece will be really interesting thing totally I mean if it is you know how the totally I mean if it is you know how the totally I mean if it is you know how the universe went from higher Dimensions to universe went from higher Dimensions to universe went from higher Dimensions to what we see it do you know are the extra what we see it do you know are the extra what we see it do you know are the extra Dimensions present everywhere I mean you Dimensions present everywhere I mean you Dimensions present everywhere I mean you know one of the really interesting know one of the really interesting know one of the really interesting pieces of physics we did that I talk pieces of physics we did that I talk pieces of physics we did that I talk about my first book War passages is about my first book War passages is about my first book War passages is finding out that there can be a higher finding out that there can be a higher finding out that there can be a higher Dimension but only locally do you think Dimension but only locally do you think Dimension but only locally do you think there's a gravity of a lower Dimension there's a gravity of a lower Dimension there's a gravity of a lower Dimension so it could be like only locally do we so it could be like only locally do we so it could be like only locally do we think we live in three dimensions it think we live in three dimensions it think we live in three dimensions it could be higher Dimensions is different could be higher Dimensions is different could be higher Dimensions is different this it's not actually the gravity we this it's not actually the gravity we this it's not actually the gravity we have but it there's all sorts of have but it there's all sorts of have but it there's all sorts of phenomena that might be out there that phenomena that might be out there that phenomena that might be out there that we don't know about all sorts of we don't know about all sorts of we don't know about all sorts of evolution things time dependence that we evolution things time dependence that we evolution things time dependence that we don't know about um and of course that's don't know about um and of course that's don't know about um and of course that's from the point of view of particle from the point of view of particle from the point of view of particle physics from the point of view of other physics from the point of view of other physics from the point of view of other kinds of physics we're just beginning so kinds of physics we're just beginning so kinds of physics we're just beginning so who knows yeah if the physics changes who knows yeah if the physics changes who knows yeah if the physics changes throughout is is not homogeneous

throughout is is not homogeneous throughout is is not homogeneous throughout the universe that's that throughout the universe that's that throughout the universe that's that would be weird I mean you know for the would be weird I mean you know for the would be weird I mean you know for the observable universe it's the same but observable universe it's the same but observable universe it's the same but beyond the observable universe who knows beyond the observable universe who knows beyond the observable universe who knows what ADV advice would you what ADV advice would you what ADV advice would you give uh you've had an exceptional career give uh you've had an exceptional career give uh you've had an exceptional career what advice would you give to young what advice would you give to young what advice would you give to young people maybe High School people maybe High School people maybe High School College on how to have a career that you College on how to have a career that you College on how to have a career that you can be proud of and a life that you can can be proud of and a life that you can can be proud of and a life that you can be proud of I think the weird thing be proud of I think the weird thing be proud of I think the weird thing about being a scientist or an academic about being a scientist or an academic about being a scientist or an academic in general is you have to believe really in general is you have to believe really in general is you have to believe really strongly in what you do while strongly in what you do while strongly in what you do while questioning it all the time you can't questioning it all the time you can't questioning it all the time you can't you know and that's that's a hard you know and that's that's a hard you know and that's that's a hard balance to have sometimes it helps to balance to have sometimes it helps to balance to have sometimes it helps to collaborate with people but to really collaborate with people but to really collaborate with people but to really believe that you could have good ideas believe that you could have good ideas believe that you could have good ideas at the same time knowing they could all at the same time knowing they could all at the same time knowing they could all be wrong that's that's that's a tough be wrong that's that's that's a tough be wrong that's that's that's a tough tight rope to walk sometimes but to tight rope to walk sometimes but to tight rope to walk sometimes but to really um test them out um the other really um test them out um the other really um test them out um the other thing is sometimes you know if you get thing is sometimes you know if you get thing is sometimes you know if you get too far buried you look out and you too far buried you look out and you too far buried you look out and you think oh there's so much out there and think oh there's so much out there and think oh there's so much out there and sometimes it's just good to bring it sometimes it's just good to bring it sometimes it's just good to bring it back home and just think okay can I have back home and just think okay can I have back home and just think okay can I have as good idea as the person next to me as good idea as the person next to me as good idea as the person next to me rather than you know the greatest rather than you know the greatest rather than you know the greatest physicist who ever lived but right now physicist who ever lived but right now physicist who ever lived but right now like you said I think there's lots of like you said I think there's lots of like you said I think there's lots of big issues out there and and it's hard big issues out there and and it's hard big issues out there and and it's hard to balance that and to balance that and to balance that and sometimes it's hard to forget the role sometimes it's hard to forget the role sometimes it's hard to forget the role of of physics but I think you know of of physics but I think you know of of physics but I think you know Wilson said it really well when he said Wilson said it really well when he said Wilson said it really well when he said you know when they were building fmy lab you know when they were building fmy lab you know when they were building fmy lab it was like this won't defend the it was like this won't defend the it was like this won't defend the country but it'll make it worth country but it'll make it worth country but it'll make it worth defending you know it's just the idea defending you know it's just the idea defending you know it's just the idea that you know in all this chaos it's that you know in all this chaos it's that you know in all this chaos it's still important that we still make still important that we still make still important that we still make progress in these things and sometimes progress in these things and sometimes progress in these things and sometimes you know when major world events are

you know when major world events are you know when major world events are happening it's easy to forget that and I happening it's easy to forget that and I happening it's easy to forget that and I think those are important too you don't think those are important too you don't think those are important too you don't want to forget those but to try to keep want to forget those but to try to keep want to forget those but to try to keep that balance because we don't want to that balance because we don't want to that balance because we don't want to lose what it is that makes hum special lose what it is that makes hum special lose what it is that makes hum special so that's the big picture would you also so that's the big picture would you also so that's the big picture would you also lose yourself in the simple joy of lose yourself in the simple joy of lose yourself in the simple joy of puzzle solving yeah yeah I mean I that's puzzle solving yeah yeah I mean I that's puzzle solving yeah yeah I mean I that's we all like solving puzzles and actually we all like solving puzzles and actually we all like solving puzzles and actually one of the things that drives me in my one of the things that drives me in my one of the things that drives me in my research is the inconsistencies when research is the inconsistencies when research is the inconsistencies when things don't make sense it really bugs things don't make sense it really bugs things don't make sense it really bugs me and I just will go in to you know me and I just will go in to you know me and I just will go in to you know different directions to see how could different directions to see how could different directions to see how could these things fit together so it bugs you these things fit together so it bugs you these things fit together so it bugs you but that motivates you yeah totally but that motivates you yeah totally but that motivates you yeah totally until it doesn't because I think I have until it doesn't because I think I have until it doesn't because I think I have this underlying belief that it should this underlying belief that it should this underlying belief that it should make sense even though the world comes make sense even though the world comes make sense even though the world comes at you in many ways and tells you at you in many ways and tells you at you in many ways and tells you nothing should make sense but if you nothing should make sense but if you nothing should make sense but if you believe that it makes sense then you believe that it makes sense then you believe that it makes sense then you look for underlying logic and I think look for underlying logic and I think look for underlying logic and I think that's just good advice for everything that's just good advice for everything that's just good advice for everything to try to find like why is it the way it to try to find like why is it the way it to try to find like why is it the way it is I think you know we talk I talked is I think you know we talk I talked is I think you know we talk I talked about effective theory in my second book about effective theory in my second book about effective theory in my second book not going have in store a lot you know not going have in store a lot you know not going have in store a lot you know it's sort of rather than ask the big it's sort of rather than ask the big it's sort of rather than ask the big questions sometimes we just ask the questions sometimes we just ask the questions sometimes we just ask the questions about the immediate things questions about the immediate things questions about the immediate things that we can measure and we can like I that we can measure and we can like I that we can measure and we can like I said we can sometimes tell one that said we can sometimes tell one that said we can sometimes tell one that we'll fail but we can have these we'll fail but we can have these we'll fail but we can have these effective theories and sometimes I think effective theories and sometimes I think effective theories and sometimes I think you know when we approach these big you know when we approach these big you know when we approach these big questions it's good to do from effective questions it's good to do from effective questions it's good to do from effective Theory point you know why do I find this Theory point you know why do I find this Theory point you know why do I find this satisfying why is the world we have the satisfying why is the world we have the satisfying why is the world we have the way it is we think things are beautiful way it is we think things are beautiful way it is we think things are beautiful that we live in I mean you know I'm not that we live in I mean you know I'm not that we live in I mean you know I'm not sure if we had different senses or sure if we had different senses or sure if we had different senses or different ways of looking at things we different ways of looking at things we different ways of looking at things we wouldn't necessarily find it beautiful wouldn't necessarily find it beautiful wouldn't necessarily find it beautiful but I have to say you know it is kind of but I have to say you know it is kind of but I have to say you know it is kind of fantastic that no matter how many times fantastic that no matter how many times fantastic that no matter how many times I see a sunset I will always find it

I see a sunset I will always find it I see a sunset I will always find it beautiful it's like I don't think I ever beautiful it's like I don't think I ever beautiful it's like I don't think I ever see a Sunset and say h whatever you know see a Sunset and say h whatever you know see a Sunset and say h whatever you know it's just always beautiful you'll always it's just always beautiful you'll always it's just always beautiful you'll always you know and so there there are things you know and so there there are things you know and so there there are things that humans you know clearly resonate that humans you know clearly resonate that humans you know clearly resonate with us but you know we were maybe with us but you know we were maybe with us but you know we were maybe evolved that way that's about us um but evolved that way that's about us um but evolved that way that's about us um but in terms of figuring out the universe in terms of figuring out the universe in terms of figuring out the universe it's kind of amazing how far we've it's kind of amazing how far we've it's kind of amazing how far we've gotten you know we have discovered many gotten you know we have discovered many gotten you know we have discovered many many wonderful things um but there's a many wonderful things um but there's a many wonderful things um but there's a lot more out there and I hope I hope we lot more out there and I hope I hope we lot more out there and I hope I hope we have the opportunity to keep going and have the opportunity to keep going and have the opportunity to keep going and with effective theories one small step with effective theories one small step with effective theories one small step at a time just keep unraveling the at a time just keep unraveling the at a time just keep unraveling the mystery but also having in mind the big mystery but also having in mind the big mystery but also having in mind the big questions but doing one small step at a questions but doing one small step at a questions but doing one small step at a time exactly yeah looking out to the time exactly yeah looking out to the time exactly yeah looking out to the Stars you said the sunset for me it's Stars you said the sunset for me it's Stars you said the sunset for me it's the sunset the sunrise and just looking the sunset the sunrise and just looking the sunset the sunrise and just looking at the stars it's wondering what's all at the stars it's wondering what's all at the stars it's wondering what's all out there and having a lot of hope that out there and having a lot of hope that out there and having a lot of hope that humans will figure it out right I like humans will figure it out right I like humans will figure it out right I like it Lisa well thank you for being one of it Lisa well thank you for being one of it Lisa well thank you for being one of the the the humans in the world for uh that are humans in the world for uh that are humans in the world for uh that are pushing it forward and uh figuring out pushing it forward and uh figuring out pushing it forward and uh figuring out this beautiful puzle of ours and thank this beautiful puzle of ours and thank this beautiful puzle of ours and thank you for talking today this is amazing you for talking today this is amazing you for talking today this is amazing thank you thanks for listening to this thank you thanks for listening to this thank you thanks for listening to this conversation with Lisa randelle to conversation with Lisa randelle to conversation with Lisa randelle to support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you some words from Albert let me leave you some words from Albert let me leave you some words from Albert Einstein the important thing is to not Einstein the important thing is to not Einstein the important thing is to not stop questioning Curiosity has its own stop questioning Curiosity has its own stop questioning Curiosity has its own reason for reason for reason for existence thank you for listening and existence thank you for listening and existence thank you for listening and hope to see you next