Lee Cronin: Controversial Nature Paper on Evolution of Life and Universe | Lex Fridman Podcast #404

every star in the sky probably has every star in the sky probably has planets Y and life is probably emerging planets Y and life is probably emerging planets Y and life is probably emerging on these planets but I think the on these planets but I think the on these planets but I think the commentarial space Associated to these commentarial space Associated to these commentarial space Associated to these planets is so different our causal cones planets is so different our causal cones planets is so different our causal cones are never going to overlap or not easily are never going to overlap or not easily are never going to overlap or not easily and this is a thing that makes me sad and this is a thing that makes me sad and this is a thing that makes me sad about alien life why why we have to about alien life why why we have to about alien life why why we have to create alien life in the lab as quickly create alien life in the lab as quickly create alien life in the lab as quickly as possible because I don't know if we as possible because I don't know if we as possible because I don't know if we are going to be able to be able to are going to be able to be able to are going to be able to be able to build um build um build um architectures that will intersect with architectures that will intersect with architectures that will intersect with alien intelligence architectures alien intelligence architectures alien intelligence architectures intersect you you know mean in time or intersect you you know mean in time or intersect you you know mean in time or space time and the ability to space time and the ability to space time and the ability to communicate the ability to communicate communicate the ability to communicate communicate the ability to communicate yeah my biggest fear in a way is that yeah my biggest fear in a way is that yeah my biggest fear in a way is that life is everywhere but we become life is everywhere but we become life is everywhere but we become infinitely more lonely because of our infinitely more lonely because of our infinitely more lonely because of our Scaffolding in that commentarial Scaffolding in that commentarial Scaffolding in that commentarial space the following is a conversation space the following is a conversation space the following is a conversation with Lee Cronin his third time in this with Lee Cronin his third time in this with Lee Cronin his third time in this podcast he is a chemist from University podcast he is a chemist from University podcast he is a chemist from University of Glasgow who is one of the most Most of Glasgow who is one of the most Most of Glasgow who is one of the most Most Fascinating brilliant and fun to talk to Fascinating brilliant and fun to talk to Fascinating brilliant and fun to talk to scientists I've ever had the pleasure of scientists I've ever had the pleasure of scientists I've ever had the pleasure of getting to know this is Alex freeden getting to know this is Alex freeden getting to know this is Alex freeden podcast to support it please check out podcast to support it please check out podcast to support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now dear friends here's Lee dear friends here's Lee dear friends here's Lee Cronin so your big assembly Theory paper Cronin so your big assembly Theory paper Cronin so your big assembly Theory paper was published in nature congratulations was published in nature congratulations was published in nature congratulations thanks it created uh I think it's fair thanks it created uh I think it's fair thanks it created uh I think it's fair to say a lot of controversy but also a to say a lot of controversy but also a to say a lot of controversy but also a lot of interesting discussion so maybe I lot of interesting discussion so maybe I lot of interesting discussion so maybe I can try try to summarize assembly Theory can try try to summarize assembly Theory can try try to summarize assembly Theory and you tell me if I'm wrong okay for it

and you tell me if I'm wrong okay for it and you tell me if I'm wrong okay for it so assembly Theory says that if we look so assembly Theory says that if we look so assembly Theory says that if we look at any object in the universe any object at any object in the universe any object at any object in the universe any object that we can quantify how complex it is that we can quantify how complex it is that we can quantify how complex it is by trying to find the number of steps it by trying to find the number of steps it by trying to find the number of steps it took to create it and also we can took to create it and also we can took to create it and also we can determine if it was built by a process determine if it was built by a process determine if it was built by a process akin to evolution by looking at how many akin to evolution by looking at how many akin to evolution by looking at how many copies of the object there are yep copies of the object there are yep copies of the object there are yep that's spot on y spot on spot on I was that's spot on y spot on spot on I was that's spot on y spot on spot on I was not expecting that okay so let's go not expecting that okay so let's go not expecting that okay so let's go through through through definitions so there's a central definitions so there's a central definitions so there's a central equation I'd love to uh talk about but equation I'd love to uh talk about but equation I'd love to uh talk about but definition wise what is an definition wise what is an definition wise what is an object um yeah an object so from so if object um yeah an object so from so if object um yeah an object so from so if I'm going to try to be as meticulous as I'm going to try to be as meticulous as I'm going to try to be as meticulous as possible objects need to be possible objects need to be possible objects need to be finite um and they need to be finite um and they need to be finite um and they need to be decomposable into decomposable into decomposable into subunits all human-made artifacts subunits all human-made artifacts subunits all human-made artifacts objects um is a Planet an object objects um is a Planet an object objects um is a Planet an object probably yes in the if you scale out so probably yes in the if you scale out so probably yes in the if you scale out so an object is finite and countable and an object is finite and countable and an object is finite and countable and decomposable um I suppose mathematically decomposable um I suppose mathematically decomposable um I suppose mathematically but yeah I still I still wake up some but yeah I still I still wake up some but yeah I still I still wake up some days and go to think to myself what is days and go to think to myself what is days and go to think to myself what is an object because it's it's it's a an object because it's it's it's a an object because it's it's it's a non-trivial um question persists over non-trivial um question persists over non-trivial um question persists over time I'm quoting from the paper here an time I'm quoting from the paper here an time I'm quoting from the paper here an object that's finite is distinguishable object that's finite is distinguishable object that's finite is distinguishable sure that's a weird adjective distinguishable we've had so many people

distinguishable we've had so many people help offering to rewrite the paper after help offering to rewrite the paper after help offering to rewrite the paper after it came out you wouldn't believe it's so it came out you wouldn't believe it's so it came out you wouldn't believe it's so funny persists over time and is funny persists over time and is funny persists over time and is breakable such that the set of breakable such that the set of breakable such that the set of constraints to construct it from constraints to construct it from constraints to construct it from elementary building blocks is elementary building blocks is elementary building blocks is quantifiable such that the set of quantifiable such that the set of quantifiable such that the set of constraints to construct it from constraints to construct it from constraints to construct it from elementary building blocks is elementary building blocks is elementary building blocks is quantifiable the history is in the quantifiable the history is in the quantifiable the history is in the object it's kind of cool right so okay object it's kind of cool right so okay object it's kind of cool right so okay so we finds the object is it's history so we finds the object is it's history so we finds the object is it's history or memory whichever is the sexier word or memory whichever is the sexier word or memory whichever is the sexier word I'm happy with both depending on the day I'm happy with both depending on the day I'm happy with both depending on the day okay so the set of steps it took to okay so the set of steps it took to okay so the set of steps it took to create the object so there's a create the object so there's a create the object so there's a sense in which every object in the sense in which every object in the sense in which every object in the universe has a history Y and that is universe has a history Y and that is universe has a history Y and that is part of the thing that is used to part of the thing that is used to part of the thing that is used to describe its complexity how complicated describe its complexity how complicated describe its complexity how complicated it is okay what is an assembly index so it is okay what is an assembly index so it is okay what is an assembly index so the assembly index if you to take the the assembly index if you to take the the assembly index if you to take the object apart and be super lazy about it object apart and be super lazy about it object apart and be super lazy about it or minimal say what it because you know or minimal say what it because you know or minimal say what it because you know it's like you've got a really short-term it's like you've got a really short-term it's like you've got a really short-term memory so what you do is you lay all the memory so what you do is you lay all the memory so what you do is you lay all the parts on the path and you find the parts on the path and you find the parts on the path and you find the minimum um number of steps you take on minimum um number of steps you take on minimum um number of steps you take on the path to add the parts together to to the path to add the parts together to to the path to add the parts together to to to reproduce the object and that minimum to reproduce the object and that minimum to reproduce the object and that minimum number is the assembly index is a number is the assembly index is a number is the assembly index is a minimum bound and it was always my minimum bound and it was always my minimum bound and it was always my intuition the minimum bound an assembly intuition the minimum bound an assembly intuition the minimum bound an assembly theory was really important and I only theory was really important and I only theory was really important and I only worked out why a few weeks ago which is worked out why a few weeks ago which is worked out why a few weeks ago which is kind of funny because I was just like no kind of funny because I was just like no kind of funny because I was just like no this is Sacra sank I don't know why it

this is Sacra sank I don't know why it this is Sacra sank I don't know why it will come to me one day and then when I will come to me one day and then when I will come to me one day and then when I was pushed by a bunch of was pushed by a bunch of was pushed by a bunch of mathematicians um we we we came up with mathematicians um we we we came up with mathematicians um we we we came up with the the correct physical explanation the the correct physical explanation the the correct physical explanation which I can get to but it's the minimum which I can get to but it's the minimum which I can get to but it's the minimum and it's really important it's the and it's really important it's the and it's really important it's the minimum and the reason I knew the minimum and the reason I knew the minimum and the reason I knew the minimum was right is because we could minimum was right is because we could minimum was right is because we could measure it so almost before this paper measure it so almost before this paper measure it so almost before this paper came out with with published papers came out with with published papers came out with with published papers explain how you can measure the assembly explain how you can measure the assembly explain how you can measure the assembly in effect of molecules okay so that's in effect of molecules okay so that's in effect of molecules okay so that's not so trivial to figure out so when you not so trivial to figure out so when you not so trivial to figure out so when you look at an object we can say a molecule look at an object we can say a molecule look at an object we can say a molecule we can say object more generally mhm to we can say object more generally mhm to we can say object more generally mhm to figure out the minimum number of steps figure out the minimum number of steps figure out the minimum number of steps it takes to create that it takes to create that it takes to create that object that doesn't seem like a trivial object that doesn't seem like a trivial object that doesn't seem like a trivial thing to do so with molecules is it's thing to do so with molecules is it's thing to do so with molecules is it's not trivial but it is possible because not trivial but it is possible because not trivial but it is possible because what you can do and because I'm I'm a what you can do and because I'm I'm a what you can do and because I'm I'm a chemist so I'm kind of like I see the chemist so I'm kind of like I see the chemist so I'm kind of like I see the lens of the world for just chemistry um lens of the world for just chemistry um lens of the world for just chemistry um um I break the molecule apart break um I break the molecule apart break um I break the molecule apart break bonds and if you break up if you take a bonds and if you break up if you take a bonds and if you break up if you take a molecule and you break it all apart you molecule and you break it all apart you molecule and you break it all apart you have a bunch of atoms and then you say have a bunch of atoms and then you say have a bunch of atoms and then you say okay I'm going to then Form B take the okay I'm going to then Form B take the okay I'm going to then Form B take the atoms and form bonds and go up the the atoms and form bonds and go up the the atoms and form bonds and go up the the chain of events to make the molecule and chain of events to make the molecule and chain of events to make the molecule and that's what made me realize take a toy that's what made me realize take a toy that's what made me realize take a toy example literally toy example take a example literally toy example take a example literally toy example take a Lego object which is broken up of Lego Lego object which is broken up of Lego Lego object which is broken up of Lego blocks so you could do exactly the same blocks so you could do exactly the same blocks so you could do exactly the same thing in this case the Lego blocks are thing in this case the Lego blocks are thing in this case the Lego blocks are naturally the smallest they're the at naturally the smallest they're the at naturally the smallest they're the at in the actual composite Lego in the actual composite Lego in the actual composite Lego architecture but then if you maybe take architecture but then if you maybe take architecture but then if you maybe take you know um a couple of blocks and put

you know um a couple of blocks and put you know um a couple of blocks and put them together in a certain way maybe them together in a certain way maybe them together in a certain way maybe they have a they offset in some way that they have a they offset in some way that they have a they offset in some way that offset is on the memory you can use that offset is on the memory you can use that offset is on the memory you can use that offset again with only a penalty of one offset again with only a penalty of one offset again with only a penalty of one and you can then make a square triangle and you can then make a square triangle and you can then make a square triangle and keep going and you remember those and keep going and you remember those and keep going and you remember those motifs on the Chain so you can then leap motifs on the Chain so you can then leap motifs on the Chain so you can then leap from the the start with all the Lego from the the start with all the Lego from the the start with all the Lego blocks or atoms just laid out in front blocks or atoms just laid out in front blocks or atoms just laid out in front of you say right I'll take you you you of you say right I'll take you you you of you say right I'll take you you you connect and do the least amount of work connect and do the least amount of work connect and do the least amount of work so it's really like uh the the smallest so it's really like uh the the smallest so it's really like uh the the smallest um um steps you can take on the graph to um um steps you can take on the graph to um um steps you can take on the graph to make the object and so for molecules it make the object and so for molecules it make the object and so for molecules it came relatively intuitively and then we came relatively intuitively and then we came relatively intuitively and then we started to apply it to language we've started to apply it to language we've started to apply it to language we've even started to apply it to mathematical even started to apply it to mathematical even started to apply it to mathematical theorems but I'm so well out of my depth theorems but I'm so well out of my depth theorems but I'm so well out of my depth but it looks like you can take minimum but it looks like you can take minimum but it looks like you can take minimum set of axioms and then start to build up set of axioms and then start to build up set of axioms and then start to build up kind of uh mathematical architectures in kind of uh mathematical architectures in kind of uh mathematical architectures in the same way and then the shortest path the same way and then the shortest path the same way and then the shortest path to get there is something interesting to get there is something interesting to get there is something interesting that I don't yet understand so what's that I don't yet understand so what's that I don't yet understand so what's the computational complexity of figuring the computational complexity of figuring the computational complexity of figuring out the shortest path in um with out the shortest path in um with out the shortest path in um with molecules with language with molecules with language with molecules with language with mathematical theorems it seems like once mathematical theorems it seems like once mathematical theorems it seems like once you have the fully constructed Lego you have the fully constructed Lego you have the fully constructed Lego Castle or whatever your favorite Lego Castle or whatever your favorite Lego Castle or whatever your favorite Lego world is figuring out how to get there world is figuring out how to get there world is figuring out how to get there from the building basic building blocks from the building basic building blocks from the building basic building blocks isn't like a is that an empty hard isn't like a is that an empty hard isn't like a is that an empty hard problem it's a hard problem it's a hard problem it's a hard problem it's a hard problem it's a hard problem it's a hard problem but but actually if you look at problem but but actually if you look at problem but but actually if you look at it so the best way to look at it for it so the best way to look at it for it so the best way to look at it for let's take a molecule so if the molecule let's take a molecule so if the molecule let's take a molecule so if the molecule has um 13 bonds first of all take 13 has um 13 bonds first of all take 13 has um 13 bonds first of all take 13 copies of the molecule and just cut all copies of the molecule and just cut all copies of the molecule and just cut all the bonds so take cut 12 bonds and then

the bonds so take cut 12 bonds and then the bonds so take cut 12 bonds and then you just put them in order yeah and then you just put them in order yeah and then you just put them in order yeah and then that's how it works so and you keep that's how it works so and you keep that's how it works so and you keep looking for Symmetry and re or or copies looking for Symmetry and re or or copies looking for Symmetry and re or or copies so you can then shorten it as you go so you can then shorten it as you go so you can then shorten it as you go down and that becomes comor quite hard down and that becomes comor quite hard down and that becomes comor quite hard um for some natural product um for some natural product um for some natural product molecules um it's comes very hard it's molecules um it's comes very hard it's molecules um it's comes very hard it's not impossible but we're looking at the not impossible but we're looking at the not impossible but we're looking at the bounds on that at the moment but as the bounds on that at the moment but as the bounds on that at the moment but as the object gets bigger it becomes really object gets bigger it becomes really object gets bigger it becomes really hard and but there that's the bad news hard and but there that's the bad news hard and but there that's the bad news but the good news is there are shortcuts but the good news is there are shortcuts but the good news is there are shortcuts and we might even be able to physically and we might even be able to physically and we might even be able to physically measure the complexity without measure the complexity without measure the complexity without computationally calculating it which is computationally calculating it which is computationally calculating it which is kind of insane wait wait how would you kind of insane wait wait how would you kind of insane wait wait how would you do that well in the case of molecule um do that well in the case of molecule um do that well in the case of molecule um so if you shine light on a molecule so if you shine light on a molecule so if you shine light on a molecule let's take it infrared the the molecule let's take it infrared the the molecule let's take it infrared the the molecule has each of the bonds absorbs the has each of the bonds absorbs the has each of the bonds absorbs the infrared differently in what we call the infrared differently in what we call the infrared differently in what we call the fingerprint region and so it's a bit fingerprint region and so it's a bit fingerprint region and so it's a bit like a um and because it's quantized as like a um and because it's quantized as like a um and because it's quantized as well you have all these discrete kind of well you have all these discrete kind of well you have all these discrete kind of absorbances and my intuition after we absorbances and my intuition after we absorbances and my intuition after we realized we could cut molecules up in realized we could cut molecules up in realized we could cut molecules up in Mass Spec that was the first go at this Mass Spec that was the first go at this Mass Spec that was the first go at this we did it with using infrared and the we did it with using infrared and the we did it with using infrared and the infrared gave us an even better infrared gave us an even better infrared gave us an even better correlation assembly index and we used correlation assembly index and we used correlation assembly index and we used another technique as well in addition to another technique as well in addition to another technique as well in addition to infrared called NMR nuclear magnetic infrared called NMR nuclear magnetic infrared called NMR nuclear magnetic resonance which tells you about the resonance which tells you about the resonance which tells you about the number of different magnetic number of different magnetic number of different magnetic environments in a molecule and that also environments in a molecule and that also environments in a molecule and that also worked out so we have three techniques worked out so we have three techniques worked out so we have three techniques which each of them independently gives which each of them independently gives which each of them independently gives us the same or tending towards the same us the same or tending towards the same us the same or tending towards the same assembly index for molecule that we can

assembly index for molecule that we can assembly index for molecule that we can calculate mathematically okay so these calculate mathematically okay so these calculate mathematically okay so these are all methods of mass spectrometry are all methods of mass spectrometry are all methods of mass spectrometry mass spec you scan a molecule it gives mass spec you scan a molecule it gives mass spec you scan a molecule it gives you data in the form of a Mass Spectrum you data in the form of a Mass Spectrum you data in the form of a Mass Spectrum and you're saying that uh the data and you're saying that uh the data and you're saying that uh the data correlates to the assembly index yeah so correlates to the assembly index yeah so correlates to the assembly index yeah so how generalizable is that shortcut first how generalizable is that shortcut first how generalizable is that shortcut first of all to chemistry of all to chemistry of all to chemistry and think of all beyond that cuz that and think of all beyond that cuz that and think of all beyond that cuz that seems like a nice hack and you're seems like a nice hack and you're seems like a nice hack and you're extremely knowledgeable about various extremely knowledgeable about various extremely knowledgeable about various aspects of chemistry so you can say okay aspects of chemistry so you can say okay aspects of chemistry so you can say okay it kind of it kind of it kind of correlates but you know the whole idea correlates but you know the whole idea correlates but you know the whole idea behind a su Theory paper and perhaps why behind a su Theory paper and perhaps why behind a su Theory paper and perhaps why it's so it's so it's so controversial is that it controversial is that it controversial is that it reaches reaches reaches bigger it reaches for the bigger general bigger it reaches for the bigger general bigger it reaches for the bigger general theory of objects in the universe yeah theory of objects in the universe yeah theory of objects in the universe yeah I'd say so I'd agree I'd say so I'd agree I'd say so I'd agree so I've started assembly theory of so I've started assembly theory of so I've started assembly theory of emoticons with my lab believe it or not emoticons with my lab believe it or not emoticons with my lab believe it or not so we take emojis yeah pixelate them so we take emojis yeah pixelate them so we take emojis yeah pixelate them yeah and work out the assembly index for yeah and work out the assembly index for yeah and work out the assembly index for emoji yeah and then work out how many emoji yeah and then work out how many emoji yeah and then work out how many emojis you can make on the path of emoji emojis you can make on the path of emoji emojis you can make on the path of emoji so there's the Uber emoji from which all so there's the Uber emoji from which all so there's the Uber emoji from which all other emo em emojis emerge yeah and then other emo em emojis emerge yeah and then other emo em emojis emerge yeah and then you can so you can then take a you can so you can then take a you can so you can then take a photograph and by looking at the photograph and by looking at the photograph and by looking at the shortest path on or by reproducing the shortest path on or by reproducing the shortest path on or by reproducing the pixels to make the image you want you pixels to make the image you want you pixels to make the image you want you can measure that so then you start to be can measure that so then you start to be can measure that so then you start to be able to take um spatial data now there's able to take um spatial data now there's able to take um spatial data now there's some problems there what is then the some problems there what is then the some problems there what is then the definition of the object how many pixels definition of the object how many pixels definition of the object how many pixels um how do you break it down and so we're um how do you break it down and so we're um how do you break it down and so we're just learning all this right now so how

just learning all this right now so how just learning all this right now so how do you compute the how do you begin to do you compute the how do you begin to do you compute the how do you begin to compute the assembly index of a compute the assembly index of a compute the assembly index of a graphical like a set of pixels on a 2G graphical like a set of pixels on a 2G graphical like a set of pixels on a 2G plane that form a thing so you would plane that form a thing so you would plane that form a thing so you would first of all determine the resolution so first of all determine the resolution so first of all determine the resolution so then how how what is your XY what the then how how what is your XY what the then how how what is your XY what the number on the X and Y plane and then number on the X and Y plane and then number on the X and Y plane and then look at the surface area and then you look at the surface area and then you look at the surface area and then you take all your emojis and make sure take all your emojis and make sure take all your emojis and make sure they're all looked at the same they're all looked at the same they're all looked at the same resolution yes and then we will resolution yes and then we will resolution yes and then we will basically then um do the exactly the basically then um do the exactly the basically then um do the exactly the same thing we would do for cutting the same thing we would do for cutting the same thing we would do for cutting the bonds you'd cut bits out of the Emoji on bonds you'd cut bits out of the Emoji on bonds you'd cut bits out of the Emoji on and look at the the you'd have a bag of and look at the the you'd have a bag of and look at the the you'd have a bag of pixels so um and you would then add pixels so um and you would then add pixels so um and you would then add those pixels together to make the those pixels together to make the those pixels together to make the overall emoji wait wait a minute but overall emoji wait wait a minute but overall emoji wait wait a minute but like first of all not every pixel like first of all not every pixel like first of all not every pixel I mean this is at the core sort of I mean this is at the core sort of I mean this is at the core sort of machine learning computer vision not machine learning computer vision not machine learning computer vision not every pixel is that important and every pixel is that important and every pixel is that important and there's like macro features there's there's like macro features there's there's like macro features there's micro features and all that kind of micro features and all that kind of micro features and all that kind of stuff exactly what like uh you know the stuff exactly what like uh you know the stuff exactly what like uh you know the eyes appear in A lot of them the smile eyes appear in A lot of them the smile eyes appear in A lot of them the smile appears in a lot of them so in the same appears in a lot of them so in the same appears in a lot of them so in the same way in chemistry we assume the bond is way in chemistry we assume the bond is way in chemistry we assume the bond is fundamental what we do in there here is fundamental what we do in there here is fundamental what we do in there here is we assume the resolution at the scale we assume the resolution at the scale we assume the resolution at the scale which we do it is fundamental and we're which we do it is fundamental and we're which we do it is fundamental and we're just working that out and that you're just working that out and that you're just working that out and that you're right that will change right because as right that will change right because as right that will change right because as you take your lens out a bit you it will you take your lens out a bit you it will you take your lens out a bit you it will change dramatically but it but it's just change dramatically but it but it's just change dramatically but it but it's just a new way of looking at not just a new way of looking at not just a new way of looking at not just compression what we do right now in compression what we do right now in compression what we do right now in computer science and data one big kind computer science and data one big kind computer science and data one big kind of um uh um kind of misunderstanding is

of um uh um kind of misunderstanding is of um uh um kind of misunderstanding is assembly theory is telling you about how assembly theory is telling you about how assembly theory is telling you about how compressed the object is that's not compressed the object is that's not compressed the object is that's not right it's a how much information is right it's a how much information is right it's a how much information is required on a chain of events because required on a chain of events because required on a chain of events because the nice thing is if when you do the nice thing is if when you do the nice thing is if when you do compression in computer science we're compression in computer science we're compression in computer science we're wandering a bit here but it's kind of wandering a bit here but it's kind of wandering a bit here but it's kind of worth wandering I think in you you um worth wandering I think in you you um worth wandering I think in you you um assume you have instantaneous access to assume you have instantaneous access to assume you have instantaneous access to all the information in the memory yeah all the information in the memory yeah all the information in the memory yeah in assembly Theory you say no you don't in assembly Theory you say no you don't in assembly Theory you say no you don't get access to that memory until you've get access to that memory until you've get access to that memory until you've done the work and then you've done done the work and then you've done done the work and then you've done access to that memory you can have access to that memory you can have access to that memory you can have access but not to the next one and this access but not to the next one and this access but not to the next one and this is how in assembly Theory we talk about is how in assembly Theory we talk about is how in assembly Theory we talk about the four universes the assembly Universe the four universes the assembly Universe the four universes the assembly Universe the assembly possible and the assembly the assembly possible and the assembly the assembly possible and the assembly contingent and then the assembly contingent and then the assembly contingent and then the assembly observed and they're all all scales in observed and they're all all scales in observed and they're all all scales in this combinatorial universe yeah can you this combinatorial universe yeah can you this combinatorial universe yeah can you explain each one of them yep so the explain each one of them yep so the explain each one of them yep so the assembly universe is like anything goes assembly universe is like anything goes assembly universe is like anything goes just it's just combinatorial kind of just it's just combinatorial kind of just it's just combinatorial kind of explosion in everything so that's the explosion in everything so that's the explosion in everything so that's the biggest one that's the biggest one it's biggest one that's the biggest one it's biggest one that's the biggest one it's massive assembly Universe assembly massive assembly Universe assembly massive assembly Universe assembly possible assembly contingent assembly possible assembly contingent assembly possible assembly contingent assembly observed and uh on the y- axis is observed and uh on the y- axis is observed and uh on the y- axis is assembly steps in time yeah and you know assembly steps in time yeah and you know assembly steps in time yeah and you know in the xais as as the thing expands in the xais as as the thing expands in the xais as as the thing expands Through Time more and more unique Through Time more and more unique Through Time more and more unique objects appear so yeah so assembly objects appear so yeah so assembly objects appear so yeah so assembly universe everything goes yeah um universe everything goes yeah um universe everything goes yeah um assembly possible laws of physics come assembly possible laws of physics come assembly possible laws of physics come in in this case in chemistry bonds m in in in this case in chemistry bonds m in in in this case in chemistry bonds m in assembly so that means those are assembly so that means those are assembly so that means those are actually constraints I guess yes and actually constraints I guess yes and actually constraints I guess yes and they're the only constraints they're the they're the only constraints they're the they're the only constraints they're the constraints at the base so the way to constraints at the base so the way to constraints at the base so the way to look at is you got all your atoms

look at is you got all your atoms look at is you got all your atoms they're quantied you can just bung them they're quantied you can just bung them they're quantied you can just bung them together so then you can become a kind together so then you can become a kind together so then you can become a kind of so in the way in computer science of so in the way in computer science of so in the way in computer science speak I suppose the assembly universe is speak I suppose the assembly universe is speak I suppose the assembly universe is just like no laws of physics things can just like no laws of physics things can just like no laws of physics things can fly through mountains beyond the speed fly through mountains beyond the speed fly through mountains beyond the speed of light in in the assembly possible you of light in in the assembly possible you of light in in the assembly possible you have to apply the laws of physics but have to apply the laws of physics but have to apply the laws of physics but you can get access to all the motifs you can get access to all the motifs you can get access to all the motifs instantaneously with no effort that instantaneously with no effort that instantaneously with no effort that means you could make anything then the means you could make anything then the means you could make anything then the assembly contingent says no you can't assembly contingent says no you can't assembly contingent says no you can't have access to the highly assembled have access to the highly assembled have access to the highly assembled object in the future until you've done object in the future until you've done object in the future until you've done the work in the past on the causal chain the work in the past on the causal chain the work in the past on the causal chain and that's really the really interesting and that's really the really interesting and that's really the really interesting shift where you go from assembly um shift where you go from assembly um shift where you go from assembly um possible to assembly contingent that is possible to assembly contingent that is possible to assembly contingent that is really the key thing in a theory that really the key thing in a theory that really the key thing in a theory that says you cannot just have instantaneous says you cannot just have instantaneous says you cannot just have instantaneous access to all those memories you have to access to all those memories you have to access to all those memories you have to have done the work somehow the universe have done the work somehow the universe have done the work somehow the universe has to have somehow built a um a system has to have somehow built a um a system has to have somehow built a um a system that allows you to select that path um that allows you to select that path um that allows you to select that path um rather than other paths and then the rather than other paths and then the rather than other paths and then the final thing the assembly observed is final thing the assembly observed is final thing the assembly observed is basically saying oh these are the things basically saying oh these are the things basically saying oh these are the things we actually see we can go backwards now we actually see we can go backwards now we actually see we can go backwards now and understand that they have been and understand that they have been and understand that they have been created by this this causal process wa created by this this causal process wa created by this this causal process wa wait a minute so when you say the wait a minute so when you say the wait a minute so when you say the universe has to construct the system universe has to construct the system universe has to construct the system that does the work is that like the that does the work is that like the that does the work is that like the environment that'll that that allows for environment that'll that that allows for environment that'll that that allows for like selection yeah yeah yeah that's the like selection yeah yeah yeah that's the like selection yeah yeah yeah that's the thing that does The Selection you could thing that does The Selection you could thing that does The Selection you could think about in terms of a Von noyman think about in terms of a Von noyman think about in terms of a Von noyman Constructor first selection a ribosome

Constructor first selection a ribosome Constructor first selection a ribosome uh Tesla plant assembling Teslas you uh Tesla plant assembling Teslas you uh Tesla plant assembling Teslas you know the the difference between the know the the difference between the know the the difference between the assembly Universe in Tesla land and the assembly Universe in Tesla land and the assembly Universe in Tesla land and the Tesla Factory is everyone says no Teslas Tesla Factory is everyone says no Teslas Tesla Factory is everyone says no Teslas are just easy they just spring out you are just easy they just spring out you are just easy they just spring out you know how to make them all Tesla Factory know how to make them all Tesla Factory know how to make them all Tesla Factory you have to put things in sequence and you have to put things in sequence and you have to put things in sequence and out comes a Tesla so you're talking out comes a Tesla so you're talking out comes a Tesla so you're talking about the factory yes this is this is about the factory yes this is this is about the factory yes this is this is really nice super important point is really nice super important point is really nice super important point is that when I talk about the universe that when I talk about the universe that when I talk about the universe having a memory or there's some magic having a memory or there's some magic having a memory or there's some magic it's not that it's that tells you that it's not that it's that tells you that it's not that it's that tells you that there must be a process encoded there must be a process encoded there must be a process encoded somewhere in physical reality be it a somewhere in physical reality be it a somewhere in physical reality be it a cell a Tesla Factory or something else cell a Tesla Factory or something else cell a Tesla Factory or something else that is making that object I'm not that is making that object I'm not that is making that object I'm not saying there's some kind of woo woo saying there's some kind of woo woo saying there's some kind of woo woo memory in the universe you know morphic memory in the universe you know morphic memory in the universe you know morphic resonance or something I'm saying that resonance or something I'm saying that resonance or something I'm saying that there is an actual causal process that there is an actual causal process that there is an actual causal process that is being directed constrained in some is being directed constrained in some is being directed constrained in some way um so it's not kind of uh just way um so it's not kind of uh just way um so it's not kind of uh just making everything yeah but Le what's the making everything yeah but Le what's the making everything yeah but Le what's the factory they made the factory so what what is the so first of factory so what what is the so first of all you assume the laws of physics is uh all you assume the laws of physics is uh all you assume the laws of physics is uh just sprung to the existence at the just sprung to the existence at the just sprung to the existence at the beginning those are constraints but what beginning those are constraints but what beginning those are constraints but what what makes the factory is the what makes the factory is the what makes the factory is the environment that does the selection this environment that does the selection this environment that does the selection this is the question of well it's the first is the question of well it's the first is the question of well it's the first interesting question that I want to interesting question that I want to interesting question that I want to answer out of four I think the factory answer out of four I think the factory answer out of four I think the factory emerges in the envir the interplay emerges in the envir the interplay emerges in the envir the interplay between the environment and the objects between the environment and the objects between the environment and the objects that are being built MH and and here let that are being built MH and and here let that are being built MH and and here let me I'll have a go explain to you the the

me I'll have a go explain to you the the me I'll have a go explain to you the the shortest path so why is the shortest shortest path so why is the shortest shortest path so why is the shortest path important imagine you've got um I'm path important imagine you've got um I'm path important imagine you've got um I'm going to have to go chemistry for a going to have to go chemistry for a going to have to go chemistry for a moment then abstract it um so imagine moment then abstract it um so imagine moment then abstract it um so imagine you've got an envir A given environment you've got an envir A given environment you've got an envir A given environment that um that you have a budget of atoms that um that you have a budget of atoms that um that you have a budget of atoms you're just flinging together Y and the you're just flinging together Y and the you're just flinging together Y and the the objective of those atoms that being the objective of those atoms that being the objective of those atoms that being flung together in say molecule a um have flung together in say molecule a um have flung together in say molecule a um have to make they have they decompose so to make they have they decompose so to make they have they decompose so molecules decompose over time so the molecules decompose over time so the molecules decompose over time so the molecules um in this environment in this molecules um in this environment in this molecules um in this environment in this magic environment have to not die but magic environment have to not die but magic environment have to not die but they do die there's a there's they have they do die there's a there's they have they do die there's a there's they have a halflife so the only way the molecules a halflife so the only way the molecules a halflife so the only way the molecules can get through that environment out the can get through that environment out the can get through that environment out the other side that's to pretend the other side that's to pretend the other side that's to pretend the environment is a box and go in out environment is a box and go in out environment is a box and go in out without dying and there's a there's just without dying and there's a there's just without dying and there's a there's just an infinite supply of atoms coming or an infinite supply of atoms coming or an infinite supply of atoms coming or well a large well a large well a large Supply the the molecule gets built but Supply the the molecule gets built but Supply the the molecule gets built but the molecule that is able to template the molecule that is able to template the molecule that is able to template itself being built um and survives in itself being built um and survives in itself being built um and survives in the environment will will basically re the environment will will basically re the environment will will basically re Supreme now let's say that molecule Supreme now let's say that molecule Supreme now let's say that molecule takes 10 takes 10 takes 10 steps now and it and it's using finite steps now and it and it's using finite steps now and it and it's using finite set of atoms right or now let's say set of atoms right or now let's say set of atoms right or now let's say another MO molecule smart ass molecule another MO molecule smart ass molecule another MO molecule smart ass molecule we'll call it comes in and can survive we'll call it comes in and can survive we'll call it comes in and can survive in that in that in that environment and can copy itself but it environment and can copy itself but it environment and can copy itself but it only needs five only needs five only needs five steps the molecule that only needs five steps the molecule that only needs five steps the molecule that only needs five steps because it's Contin both molecules steps because it's Contin both molecules steps because it's Contin both molecules are being destroyed but they're creating are being destroyed but they're creating are being destroyed but they're creating themselves faster they can be destroyed themselves faster they can be destroyed themselves faster they can be destroyed you can see that the shortest path

you can see that the shortest path you can see that the shortest path Reigns Supreme so the shortest path Reigns Supreme so the shortest path Reigns Supreme so the shortest path tells us something super interesting tells us something super interesting tells us something super interesting about the minimal amount of uh about the minimal amount of uh about the minimal amount of uh information required to propagate that information required to propagate that information required to propagate that Motif into time and space um and it's Motif into time and space um and it's Motif into time and space um and it's just like a kind of it seems to be like just like a kind of it seems to be like just like a kind of it seems to be like some kind of conservation law so one of some kind of conservation law so one of some kind of conservation law so one of the intuitions you have is the the intuitions you have is the the intuitions you have is the propagation of motifs in time will be propagation of motifs in time will be propagation of motifs in time will be done by the things that can construct done by the things that can construct done by the things that can construct themselves in the themselves in the themselves in the shortest path yeah so like you can shortest path yeah so like you can shortest path yeah so like you can assume that most the objects in the assume that most the objects in the assume that most the objects in the universe are built in the shortest in universe are built in the shortest in universe are built in the shortest in the most efficient way that the so big the most efficient way that the so big the most efficient way that the so big leap I just took there yeah no yeah yes leap I just took there yeah no yeah yes leap I just took there yeah no yeah yes and no because there are other things so and no because there are other things so and no because there are other things so in the limit yes because you want to in the limit yes because you want to in the limit yes because you want to tell the difference between things that tell the difference between things that tell the difference between things that have required a factory to build them have required a factory to build them have required a factory to build them and just random and just random and just random processes um but you can find instances processes um but you can find instances processes um but you can find instances where the shortest path isn't taken for where the shortest path isn't taken for where the shortest path isn't taken for an individual object an individual an individual object an individual an individual object an individual function MH um and people go ah that function MH um and people go ah that function MH um and people go ah that means the shortest path isn't right and means the shortest path isn't right and means the shortest path isn't right and then I say well I don't know I think then I say well I don't know I think then I say well I don't know I think it's right still because so of course it's right still because so of course it's right still because so of course because there are other driving forces because there are other driving forces because there are other driving forces it's not just one molecule now when you it's not just one molecule now when you it's not just one molecule now when you start to now you start to consider two start to now you start to consider two start to now you start to consider two objects you have a joint assembly space objects you have a joint assembly space objects you have a joint assembly space and it's not now it's a compromise and it's not now it's a compromise and it's not now it's a compromise between not just making a and b in the between not just making a and b in the between not just making a and b in the shortest path you want to make a and b shortest path you want to make a and b shortest path you want to make a and b in the shortest path which might mean in the shortest path which might mean in the shortest path which might mean that a is slightly longer you have that a is slightly longer you have that a is slightly longer you have compromise so when you see slightly more

compromise so when you see slightly more compromise so when you see slightly more nesting in the construction when you nesting in the construction when you nesting in the construction when you take a given object that can look longer take a given object that can look longer take a given object that can look longer but that's because the overall function but that's because the overall function but that's because the overall function is the object is still trying to be is the object is still trying to be is the object is still trying to be efficient yeah and this is still very efficient yeah and this is still very efficient yeah and this is still very handwavy um and maybe no leg to stand on handwavy um and maybe no leg to stand on handwavy um and maybe no leg to stand on but we think we're getting somewhere but we think we're getting somewhere but we think we're getting somewhere with that and there's probably some with that and there's probably some with that and there's probably some parallelization yeah right so this is parallelization yeah right so this is parallelization yeah right so this is all this is not sequential the building all this is not sequential the building all this is not sequential the building is yeah I guess when you're when you're is yeah I guess when you're when you're is yeah I guess when you're when you're talking about complex objects you you talking about complex objects you you talking about complex objects you you don't have to work sequentially you can don't have to work sequentially you can don't have to work sequentially you can work in parallel you can get your work in parallel you can get your work in parallel you can get your friends together and they can yeah these friends together and they can yeah these friends together and they can yeah these and the the thing we're working on right and the the thing we're working on right and the the thing we're working on right now is how to understand these parallel now is how to understand these parallel now is how to understand these parallel processes now there's an in a new thing processes now there's an in a new thing processes now there's an in a new thing we've introduced called assembly depth we've introduced called assembly depth we've introduced called assembly depth and assem assembly depth can be lower and assem assembly depth can be lower and assem assembly depth can be lower than the assembly index for a molecule than the assembly index for a molecule than the assembly index for a molecule when they're cooperating together when they're cooperating together when they're cooperating together because exactly this parallel processing because exactly this parallel processing because exactly this parallel processing is going on and my team have been is going on and my team have been is going on and my team have been working this out in the last few weeks working this out in the last few weeks working this out in the last few weeks because we're looking at what because we're looking at what because we're looking at what compromises does nature need to make compromises does nature need to make compromises does nature need to make when it's making molecules in the cell when it's making molecules in the cell when it's making molecules in the cell and I I wonder if you know I I maybe and I I wonder if you know I I maybe and I I wonder if you know I I maybe like well I'm always leaping out of um like well I'm always leaping out of um like well I'm always leaping out of um my competence but in economics I'm just my competence but in economics I'm just my competence but in economics I'm just wondering if you could apply this in wondering if you could apply this in wondering if you could apply this in economic process it seems like economic process it seems like economic process it seems like capitalism is very good at finding capitalism is very good at finding capitalism is very good at finding shortest path you know every time and shortest path you know every time and shortest path you know every time and there are ludicrous things that happen there are ludicrous things that happen there are ludicrous things that happen because actually the cost functions been because actually the cost functions been because actually the cost functions been minimized and so I keep seeing parallels minimized and so I keep seeing parallels minimized and so I keep seeing parallels everywhere where there are complex everywhere where there are complex everywhere where there are complex nested systems where if you give it

nested systems where if you give it nested systems where if you give it enough time and you introduce a bit of enough time and you introduce a bit of enough time and you introduce a bit of heterogeneity the system readjusts and heterogeneity the system readjusts and heterogeneity the system readjusts and finds a new shortest path but the finds a new shortest path but the finds a new shortest path but the shortest path isn't fixed on just one shortest path isn't fixed on just one shortest path isn't fixed on just one molecule now it's in the actual molecule now it's in the actual molecule now it's in the actual existence of the object over time and existence of the object over time and existence of the object over time and that object could be a city it could be that object could be a city it could be that object could be a city it could be a cell it could be a factory but I think a cell it could be a factory but I think a cell it could be a factory but I think we're going Way Beyond molecules and and we're going Way Beyond molecules and and we're going Way Beyond molecules and and my competence probably should go back to my competence probably should go back to my competence probably should go back to molecules but hey all right before we molecules but hey all right before we molecules but hey all right before we get too far let's talk about the get too far let's talk about the get too far let's talk about the assembly assembly assembly equation okay how should we do this all equation okay how should we do this all equation okay how should we do this all let me just even read that part of the let me just even read that part of the let me just even read that part of the paper we Define assembly as the total paper we Define assembly as the total paper we Define assembly as the total amount of selection necessary to produce amount of selection necessary to produce amount of selection necessary to produce an ensemble of observed objects an ensemble of observed objects an ensemble of observed objects Quantified using equation Quantified using equation Quantified using equation one the equation basically has a on one one the equation basically has a on one one the equation basically has a on one side which is the Assembly of The side which is the Assembly of The side which is the Assembly of The Ensemble MH and then a Ensemble MH and then a Ensemble MH and then a sum from one to n where n is the total sum from one to n where n is the total sum from one to n where n is the total number of unique number of unique number of unique objects and then there is a few objects and then there is a few objects and then there is a few variables in there that include the variables in there that include the variables in there that include the assembly assembly assembly index the copy number which we'll talk index the copy number which we'll talk index the copy number which we'll talk about that's an interesting I don't about that's an interesting I don't about that's an interesting I don't remember you talking about that that's remember you talking about that that's remember you talking about that that's an interesting addition and I think a an interesting addition and I think a an interesting addition and I think a powerful one has to do with what that powerful one has to do with what that powerful one has to do with what that you can create pretty complex objects you can create pretty complex objects you can create pretty complex objects randomly mhm and in order to know that randomly mhm and in order to know that randomly mhm and in order to know that they're not random that there's a they're not random that there's a they're not random that there's a factory involved you need to see a bunch factory involved you need to see a bunch factory involved you need to see a bunch of them that's that's the intuition of them that's that's the intuition of them that's that's the intuition there it's an interesting intuition and there it's an interesting intuition and there it's an interesting intuition and then uh some

then uh some then uh some normalization what else is it n n minus normalization what else is it n n minus normalization what else is it n n minus one just to make sure that more than one one just to make sure that more than one one just to make sure that more than one object one object could be a oneof and r object one object could be a oneof and r object one object could be a oneof and r yep and then you have more than one yep and then you have more than one yep and then you have more than one identical object that's interesting when identical object that's interesting when identical object that's interesting when when there's when there's two of a thing when there's when there's two of a thing when there's when there's two of a thing two of a thing is super important two of a thing is super important two of a thing is super important especially if the IND index assembly especially if the IND index assembly especially if the IND index assembly index is high so uh we could say several index is high so uh we could say several index is high so uh we could say several questions here one let's talk about questions here one let's talk about questions here one let's talk about selection what is this term selection selection what is this term selection selection what is this term selection what is this term evolution that we're what is this term evolution that we're what is this term evolution that we're referring to which which aspect of referring to which which aspect of referring to which which aspect of darwinian evolution are we referring to darwinian evolution are we referring to darwinian evolution are we referring to that's interesting here so yeah so this that's interesting here so yeah so this that's interesting here so yeah so this is probably what you know the paper we is probably what you know the paper we is probably what you know the paper we should talk about the paper for a second should talk about the paper for a second should talk about the paper for a second the paper did what it did is it kind of the paper did what it did is it kind of the paper did what it did is it kind of annoyed um we didn't know I mean it got annoyed um we didn't know I mean it got annoyed um we didn't know I mean it got intention and obviously angry people the intention and obviously angry people the intention and obviously angry people the angry people were annoyed there's angry angry people were annoyed there's angry angry people were annoyed there's angry people in the world that's good so what people in the world that's good so what people in the world that's good so what happened is the evolutionary biologist happened is the evolutionary biologist happened is the evolutionary biologist got angry we were not expecting that got angry we were not expecting that got angry we were not expecting that because we thought evolutionary bodies because we thought evolutionary bodies because we thought evolutionary bodies would be cool I knew that some not many would be cool I knew that some not many would be cool I knew that some not many computational complexity people will get computational complexity people will get computational complexity people will get angry because I'd kind of been poking angry because I'd kind of been poking angry because I'd kind of been poking them and maybe I deserved it but I was them and maybe I deserved it but I was them and maybe I deserved it but I was trying to poke them in a productive way trying to poke them in a productive way trying to poke them in a productive way mhm and then the physicist kind of got mhm and then the physicist kind of got mhm and then the physicist kind of got grumpy because the initial conditions grumpy because the initial conditions grumpy because the initial conditions tell everything the Prebiotic chemist tell everything the Prebiotic chemist tell everything the Prebiotic chemist got slightly grumpy because there's not got slightly grumpy because there's not got slightly grumpy because there's not enough chemistry in there then finally enough chemistry in there then finally enough chemistry in there then finally when the creationist said it wasn't when the creationist said it wasn't when the creationist said it wasn't creationist enough I was like right I've creationist enough I was like right I've creationist enough I was like right I've done my job the phys well you say in the done my job the phys well you say in the done my job the phys well you say in the physics they physics they physics they say because you're basically saying that say because you're basically saying that say because you're basically saying that physics is not enough to tell the story physics is not enough to tell the story physics is not enough to tell the story of how biology emerges I think so and

of how biology emerges I think so and of how biology emerges I think so and then they said a few physics is the then they said a few physics is the then they said a few physics is the beginning and the end of the story beginning and the end of the story beginning and the end of the story yeah so what happened is the reason why yeah so what happened is the reason why yeah so what happened is the reason why people put the phone down on the call of people put the phone down on the call of people put the phone down on the call of the paper if you if you view reading the the paper if you if you view reading the the paper if you if you view reading the paper like a phone call they got to the paper like a phone call they got to the paper like a phone call they got to the abstract Y and in the abstract it's abstract Y and in the abstract it's abstract Y and in the abstract it's first sentence is pretty the first two first sentence is pretty the first two first sentence is pretty the first two sentences caused everybody scientists sentences caused everybody scientists sentences caused everybody scientists have grappled with reconciling have grappled with reconciling have grappled with reconciling biological evolution with the immutable biological evolution with the immutable biological evolution with the immutable laws of the universe defined by physics laws of the universe defined by physics laws of the universe defined by physics true right there's nothing wrong with true right there's nothing wrong with true right there's nothing wrong with that statement totally that statement totally that statement totally true yeah these laws underpin life's SW true yeah these laws underpin life's SW true yeah these laws underpin life's SW Evolution and the development of human Evolution and the development of human Evolution and the development of human culture and Technology yet they do not culture and Technology yet they do not culture and Technology yet they do not predict the emergence of these predict the emergence of these predict the emergence of these phenomena Wow first of all we should say phenomena Wow first of all we should say phenomena Wow first of all we should say the title of the paper this is paper was the title of the paper this is paper was the title of the paper this is paper was accepted and published in nature the accepted and published in nature the accepted and published in nature the title is assembly Theory explains and title is assembly Theory explains and title is assembly Theory explains and quantifies selection and evolution very quantifies selection and evolution very quantifies selection and evolution very humble title and and the the the humble title and and the the the humble title and and the the the entirety of the paper I think uh entirety of the paper I think uh entirety of the paper I think uh presents interesting ideas but reaches presents interesting ideas but reaches presents interesting ideas but reaches High I am not High I am not High I am not I would do it all again this paper was I would do it all again this paper was I would do it all again this paper was actually on the pre-print server for actually on the pre-print server for actually on the pre-print server for over a year you regret nothing yeah I I over a year you regret nothing yeah I I over a year you regret nothing yeah I I I think yeah I don't regret anything you I think yeah I don't regret anything you I think yeah I don't regret anything you and Frank Sinatra did it your way what I and Frank Sinatra did it your way what I and Frank Sinatra did it your way what I love about being a scientist is kind of love about being a scientist is kind of love about being a scientist is kind of sometimes I'm because I'm a bit dim I'm sometimes I'm because I'm a bit dim I'm sometimes I'm because I'm a bit dim I'm like and I don't understand what people like and I don't understand what people like and I don't understand what people telling me I want to get to the point telling me I want to get to the point telling me I want to get to the point this paper says Hey laws of physics are this paper says Hey laws of physics are this paper says Hey laws of physics are really cool the universe is really cool the universe is really cool the universe is great but they don't really it's not

great but they don't really it's not great but they don't really it's not intuitive that you just run the standard intuitive that you just run the standard intuitive that you just run the standard model and get life out I think most model and get life out I think most model and get life out I think most physicists might go yeah there's this physicists might go yeah there's this physicists might go yeah there's this you know it's not just we can't just go you know it's not just we can't just go you know it's not just we can't just go back and say that's what happened back and say that's what happened back and say that's what happened because physics can't explain the origin because physics can't explain the origin because physics can't explain the origin of life yet do doesn't mean it won't or of life yet do doesn't mean it won't or of life yet do doesn't mean it won't or can't okay just to be clear sorry can't okay just to be clear sorry can't okay just to be clear sorry intelligent designers we are going to intelligent designers we are going to intelligent designers we are going to get there second point we say that get there second point we say that get there second point we say that Evolution works but we don't know how Evolution works but we don't know how Evolution works but we don't know how Evolution got going so biological Evolution got going so biological Evolution got going so biological evolution and biological selection so evolution and biological selection so evolution and biological selection so for me this seems like a simple for me this seems like a simple for me this seems like a simple continuum so when I mentioned selection continuum so when I mentioned selection continuum so when I mentioned selection and evolution in the title I think and and evolution in the title I think and and evolution in the title I think and in the abstract we should have maybe in the abstract we should have maybe in the abstract we should have maybe prefaced that and said non-biological prefaced that and said non-biological prefaced that and said non-biological selection and non-biological evolutions selection and non-biological evolutions selection and non-biological evolutions and then that might have made it even and then that might have made it even and then that might have made it even more crystal clear but I didn't think more crystal clear but I didn't think more crystal clear but I didn't think that biology evolutionary biology should that biology evolutionary biology should that biology evolutionary biology should be so bold to claim own ownership of be so bold to claim own ownership of be so bold to claim own ownership of selection and evolution and secondly a selection and evolution and secondly a selection and evolution and secondly a lot of evolutionary biologists seem to lot of evolutionary biologists seem to lot of evolutionary biologists seem to dismiss the origin of Life questions to dismiss the origin of Life questions to dismiss the origin of Life questions to say it's obvious and and that causes a say it's obvious and and that causes a say it's obvious and and that causes a real problem scientifically because when real problem scientifically because when real problem scientifically because when two different when the physicists are two different when the physicists are two different when the physicists are like we own the universe universe is like we own the universe universe is like we own the universe universe is good we explain all of it look at us and good we explain all of it look at us and good we explain all of it look at us and the biologist say we can explain biology the biologist say we can explain biology the biologist say we can explain biology and the poor chemistry in the in in the and the poor chemistry in the in in the and the poor chemistry in the in in the middle ground but hang middle ground but hang middle ground but hang on and this paper kind of says hey there on and this paper kind of says hey there on and this paper kind of says hey there is an is an is an interesting interesting interesting um disconnect between physics and um disconnect between physics and um disconnect between physics and biology and that's at the point which biology and that's at the point which biology and that's at the point which memories get made in chemistry through memories get made in chemistry through memories get made in chemistry through bonds and hey let's look at this close

bonds and hey let's look at this close bonds and hey let's look at this close and see if we can quantify it so yeah I and see if we can quantify it so yeah I and see if we can quantify it so yeah I mean I never expected the paper to to to mean I never expected the paper to to to mean I never expected the paper to to to kind of get that much interest and still kind of get that much interest and still kind of get that much interest and still I mean it's only been published just I mean it's only been published just I mean it's only been published just over a month ago now so just to Ling on over a month ago now so just to Ling on over a month ago now so just to Ling on the selection what is the selection what is the selection what is the broader sense of what selection the broader sense of what selection the broader sense of what selection means yeah that's really good for means yeah that's really good for means yeah that's really good for selection selection so I think for selection selection so I think for selection selection so I think for selection you need so this is where for selection you need so this is where for selection you need so this is where for me the concept of an object is something me the concept of an object is something me the concept of an object is something that can persist in time and and not die that can persist in time and and not die that can persist in time and and not die but basically can be broken up mhm so so but basically can be broken up mhm so so but basically can be broken up mhm so so if I was going to kind of bolster the if I was going to kind of bolster the if I was going to kind of bolster the definition of an object so so if if definition of an object so so if if definition of an object so so if if something can something can something can form and persist for a a a long period form and persist for a a a long period form and persist for a a a long period of time um of time um of time um under an existing environment that could under an existing environment that could under an existing environment that could destroy other and I'm going to use destroy other and I'm going to use destroy other and I'm going to use anthropomorphic terms I apologize that anthropomorphic terms I apologize that anthropomorphic terms I apologize that weaker objects um or less weaker objects um or less weaker objects um or less robust um then the environment could robust um then the environment could robust um then the environment could have selected that so good chemistry have selected that so good chemistry have selected that so good chemistry examples if you took some carbon and you examples if you took some carbon and you examples if you took some carbon and you made a chain of carbon atoms whereas if made a chain of carbon atoms whereas if made a chain of carbon atoms whereas if you took some I don't know some carbon you took some I don't know some carbon you took some I don't know some carbon nitrogen and oxygen and made chains from nitrogen and oxygen and made chains from nitrogen and oxygen and made chains from those you'd start to get different those you'd start to get different those you'd start to get different reactions and rearrangements so a carb a reactions and rearrangements so a carb a reactions and rearrangements so a carb a chain of carbon atoms might be more chain of carbon atoms might be more chain of carbon atoms might be more resistant to falling apart uh under resistant to falling apart uh under resistant to falling apart uh under acidic or basic conditions um versus acidic or basic conditions um versus acidic or basic conditions um versus another set of molecules so surviv in

another set of molecules so surviv in another set of molecules so surviv in that environment so the acid Pond the that environment so the acid Pond the that environment so the acid Pond the molecule the the molecu the resistant molecule the the molecu the resistant molecule the the molecu the resistant molecule can get through and and then molecule can get through and and then molecule can get through and and then then that molecule goes into another then that molecule goes into another then that molecule goes into another environment so that environment now environment so that environment now environment so that environment now maybe being an acid Bond it's a basic maybe being an acid Bond it's a basic maybe being an acid Bond it's a basic Pond or maybe it's an oxidizing Pond and Pond or maybe it's an oxidizing Pond and Pond or maybe it's an oxidizing Pond and so if you've got carbon and it goes an so if you've got carbon and it goes an so if you've got carbon and it goes an oxidizing pond maybe the carbon starts oxidizing pond maybe the carbon starts oxidizing pond maybe the carbon starts to oxidize and break apart so you go to oxidize and break apart so you go to oxidize and break apart so you go through all these kind of obstacle through all these kind of obstacle through all these kind of obstacle courses if you like given by reality so courses if you like given by reality so courses if you like given by reality so selection is the ability happens when an selection is the ability happens when an selection is the ability happens when an object survives in an environment for object survives in an environment for object survives in an environment for some time but and this is a thing that's some time but and this is a thing that's some time but and this is a thing that's super subtle the object has to be super subtle the object has to be super subtle the object has to be continually being destroyed and made by continually being destroyed and made by continually being destroyed and made by process so it's not just about the proc process so it's not just about the proc process so it's not just about the proc the object now it's about the process the object now it's about the process the object now it's about the process and time that makes it because a rock and time that makes it because a rock and time that makes it because a rock could just stand on the mountain side could just stand on the mountain side could just stand on the mountain side for four billion years and nothing for four billion years and nothing for four billion years and nothing happened to it and that's not happened to it and that's not happened to it and that's not necessarily really Advanced selection so necessarily really Advanced selection so necessarily really Advanced selection so for selection to get really interesting for selection to get really interesting for selection to get really interesting you need to have a turnover in time you you need to have a turnover in time you you need to have a turnover in time you need to be continually creating objects need to be continually creating objects need to be continually creating objects producing them what we call Discovery producing them what we call Discovery producing them what we call Discovery Time so there's a discovery time for an Time so there's a discovery time for an Time so there's a discovery time for an object when that object is discovered if object when that object is discovered if object when that object is discovered if it's say a molecule that can then act on it's say a molecule that can then act on it's say a molecule that can then act on itself or the chain of events that itself or the chain of events that itself or the chain of events that caused itself to bolster its formation caused itself to bolster its formation caused itself to bolster its formation then you go from Discovery time to then you go from Discovery time to then you go from Discovery time to production time and suddenly you have production time and suddenly you have production time and suddenly you have more of it in the universe so it could more of it in the universe so it could more of it in the universe so it could be a self-replicating molecule and the be a self-replicating molecule and the be a self-replicating molecule and the interaction of the molecule in the interaction of the molecule in the interaction of the molecule in the environment in the warm little part or

environment in the warm little part or environment in the warm little part or in the sea or wherever in the bubble in the sea or wherever in the bubble in the sea or wherever in the bubble could then start to build a Proto could then start to build a Proto could then start to build a Proto Factory the environment so really to Factory the environment so really to Factory the environment so really to answer your question what the factory is answer your question what the factory is answer your question what the factory is the factory is the environment but it's the factory is the environment but it's the factory is the environment but it's not very autonomous it's not very not very autonomous it's not very not very autonomous it's not very redundant there's lots of things that redundant there's lots of things that redundant there's lots of things that could go wrong so once you get high could go wrong so once you get high could go wrong so once you get high enough up the the the hierarchy of enough up the the the hierarchy of enough up the the the hierarchy of networks of networks of networks of interactions something needs to happen interactions something needs to happen interactions something needs to happen that needs to be compressed into a that needs to be compressed into a that needs to be compressed into a smaller volume and made resistant robust smaller volume and made resistant robust smaller volume and made resistant robust because in biology because in biology because in biology selection and evolution is robust that selection and evolution is robust that selection and evolution is robust that you have error correction built in you you have error correction built in you you have error correction built in you have really you know there's good ways have really you know there's good ways have really you know there's good ways of basically making sure propagation of basically making sure propagation of basically making sure propagation goes on so really the difference between goes on so really the difference between goes on so really the difference between inorganic abiotic selection and inorganic abiotic selection and inorganic abiotic selection and evolution and evolution and stuff in evolution and evolution and stuff in evolution and evolution and stuff in biology is biology is biology is robustness um the ability to to kind of robustness um the ability to to kind of robustness um the ability to to kind of propagate over over in the the ability propagate over over in the the ability propagate over over in the the ability survive in lots of different survive in lots of different survive in lots of different environments whereas our poor little an environments whereas our poor little an environments whereas our poor little an organic salt molecule whatever just dies organic salt molecule whatever just dies organic salt molecule whatever just dies in lots of different environments so in lots of different environments so in lots of different environments so there's something super special that there's something super special that there's something super special that happens from the inorganic envir happens from the inorganic envir happens from the inorganic envir molecule in the environment that kills molecule in the environment that kills molecule in the environment that kills it to where you've got Evolution and it to where you've got Evolution and it to where you've got Evolution and cells can survive cells can survive cells can survive everywhere how special is that how do everywhere how special is that how do everywhere how special is that how do you know those kinds of uh Evolution you know those kinds of uh Evolution you know those kinds of uh Evolution factories aren't everywhere in the factories aren't everywhere in the factories aren't everywhere in the universe I I don't and I'm excited cuz I universe I I don't and I'm excited cuz I universe I I don't and I'm excited cuz I think selection isn't special at all I think selection isn't special at all I think selection isn't special at all I think what is special is the history of

think what is special is the history of think what is special is the history of the environments on Earth that gave rise the environments on Earth that gave rise the environments on Earth that gave rise to the first cell that now has you know to the first cell that now has you know to the first cell that now has you know has taken all those has taken all those has taken all those environments and is now more autonomous environments and is now more autonomous environments and is now more autonomous and I would like to think that you know and I would like to think that you know and I would like to think that you know this this this paper could be very paper could be very paper could be very wrong but I don't think it's very wrong wrong but I don't think it's very wrong wrong but I don't think it's very wrong it mean certainly wrong but it's less it mean certainly wrong but it's less it mean certainly wrong but it's less wrong than some other ideas I hope right wrong than some other ideas I hope right wrong than some other ideas I hope right and if this allow Ires us to go and look and if this allow Ires us to go and look and if this allow Ires us to go and look for selection in the universe because we for selection in the universe because we for selection in the universe because we now have an equation where we can say we now have an equation where we can say we now have an equation where we can say we can look for selection going on and say can look for selection going on and say can look for selection going on and say oh that's interesting we seem to have a oh that's interesting we seem to have a oh that's interesting we seem to have a pro process that's giving that's giving pro process that's giving that's giving pro process that's giving that's giving us High copy number objects that also us High copy number objects that also us High copy number objects that also are highly complex but that doesn't look are highly complex but that doesn't look are highly complex but that doesn't look like Life as We Know It And we use that like Life as We Know It And we use that like Life as We Know It And we use that and say oh there's a hydrothermal vent and say oh there's a hydrothermal vent and say oh there's a hydrothermal vent oh there's a process going on there's oh there's a process going on there's oh there's a process going on there's molecular networks because the assembly molecular networks because the assembly molecular networks because the assembly equation is not only meant to identify equation is not only meant to identify equation is not only meant to identify at the higher end advanced at the higher end advanced at the higher end advanced selection what you get I would call in selection what you get I would call in selection what you get I would call in biology super Advanced selection and biology super Advanced selection and biology super Advanced selection and even I you could use the assembly even I you could use the assembly even I you could use the assembly equation to look for technology and um equation to look for technology and um equation to look for technology and um God forbid we could talk about God forbid we could talk about God forbid we could talk about Consciousness and abstraction but let's Consciousness and abstraction but let's Consciousness and abstraction but let's keep it primitive molecules and biology keep it primitive molecules and biology keep it primitive molecules and biology so I think the real power of the so I think the real power of the so I think the real power of the assembly equation is to is to say how assembly equation is to is to say how assembly equation is to is to say how much selection is going on in this space much selection is going on in this space much selection is going on in this space and there there's a really simple and there there's a really simple and there there's a really simple thought experiment I could do is you you thought experiment I could do is you you thought experiment I could do is you you know have a little petri dish and on know have a little petri dish and on know have a little petri dish and on that petri dish you put some simple food that petri dish you put some simple food that petri dish you put some simple food so the assembly index of all the sugars so the assembly index of all the sugars so the assembly index of all the sugars and everything is quite low so then and

and everything is quite low so then and and everything is quite low so then and you put a single e cell of e eoli cell you put a single e cell of e eoli cell you put a single e cell of e eoli cell yeah and then you say I'm going to I'm yeah and then you say I'm going to I'm yeah and then you say I'm going to I'm going to measure the assembly in the going to measure the assembly in the going to measure the assembly in the amount of assembly in the box so it's amount of assembly in the box so it's amount of assembly in the box so it's quite low but the rate of change of quite low but the rate of change of quite low but the rate of change of assembly da DT will go vom sigmoidal as assembly da DT will go vom sigmoidal as assembly da DT will go vom sigmoidal as it eats all the food and the number of it eats all the food and the number of it eats all the food and the number of coli cells will re will replicate coli cells will re will replicate coli cells will re will replicate because they take all the food they copy because they take all the food they copy because they take all the food they copy themselves the assembly index of all the themselves the assembly index of all the themselves the assembly index of all the molecules goes up up up and up up until molecules goes up up up and up up until molecules goes up up up and up up until the food is exhausted in the box so now the food is exhausted in the box so now the food is exhausted in the box so now the now the eoli stop I mean d is the now the eoli stop I mean d is the now the eoli stop I mean d is probably a strong way they stop probably a strong way they stop probably a strong way they stop respiring because all the food is gone respiring because all the food is gone respiring because all the food is gone but suddenly the amount of assembly in but suddenly the amount of assembly in but suddenly the amount of assembly in the box has gone up gigantically because the box has gone up gigantically because the box has gone up gigantically because of that one eoli Factory has just eaten of that one eoli Factory has just eaten of that one eoli Factory has just eaten through M lots of other eoli Factory has through M lots of other eoli Factory has through M lots of other eoli Factory has run out of food and stopped and so that run out of food and stopped and so that run out of food and stopped and so that looking at that so in the initial box looking at that so in the initial box looking at that so in the initial box although the amount of assembly was although the amount of assembly was although the amount of assembly was really small it was able to make really small it was able to make really small it was able to make replicate and use all the food and go up replicate and use all the food and go up replicate and use all the food and go up and that's what we're trying to do in and that's what we're trying to do in and that's what we're trying to do in the lab actually is kind of make those the lab actually is kind of make those the lab actually is kind of make those kind of experiments and see if we can kind of experiments and see if we can kind of experiments and see if we can spot the emergence of molecular networks spot the emergence of molecular networks spot the emergence of molecular networks that are producing complexity as we feed that are producing complexity as we feed that are producing complexity as we feed in raw materials and we feed a challenge in raw materials and we feed a challenge in raw materials and we feed a challenge an environment you know we try and kill an environment you know we try and kill an environment you know we try and kill the molecules and and and really that's the molecules and and and really that's the molecules and and and really that's the main kind of idea for the entire the main kind of idea for the entire the main kind of idea for the entire paper yeah and see if you can measure paper yeah and see if you can measure paper yeah and see if you can measure the changes in the assembly index the changes in the assembly index the changes in the assembly index throughout the whole system yeah okay throughout the whole system yeah okay throughout the whole system yeah okay what what about if if I show up to new what what about if if I show up to new what what about if if I show up to new planet we go to Mars or some other planet we go to Mars or some other planet we go to Mars or some other planet from a different solar system and

planet from a different solar system and planet from a different solar system and how do we use assembly index there to how do we use assembly index there to how do we use assembly index there to discover alien life um in very simply discover alien life um in very simply discover alien life um in very simply actually if we let's say we'll go to actually if we let's say we'll go to actually if we let's say we'll go to Mars with a mass spectrometer with a Mars with a mass spectrometer with a Mars with a mass spectrometer with a sufficiently high resolution so what you sufficiently high resolution so what you sufficiently high resolution so what you have to be able to do so good thing have to be able to do so good thing have to be able to do so good thing about Mass speec um is that you can um about Mass speec um is that you can um about Mass speec um is that you can um select a molecule from the mass and then select a molecule from the mass and then select a molecule from the mass and then if it's high enough resolution you can if it's high enough resolution you can if it's high enough resolution you can be more and more sure that you're just be more and more sure that you're just be more and more sure that you're just seeing um identical copies you can count seeing um identical copies you can count seeing um identical copies you can count them and then you fragment them and you them and then you fragment them and you them and then you fragment them and you count the number of fragments and look count the number of fragments and look count the number of fragments and look at the molecular weight and the higher at the molecular weight and the higher at the molecular weight and the higher the molecular weight and the higher the the molecular weight and the higher the the molecular weight and the higher the number of the fragments the higher the number of the fragments the higher the number of the fragments the higher the assembly index so if you go to Ms and assembly index so if you go to Ms and assembly index so if you go to Ms and you take a mass spec or high enough you take a mass spec or high enough you take a mass spec or high enough resolution and you can find molecules resolution and you can find molecules resolution and you can find molecules I'll give gu guide on Earth if you could I'll give gu guide on Earth if you could I'll give gu guide on Earth if you could find molecules say greater than 350 find molecules say greater than 350 find molecules say greater than 350 molecular weight with more than 15 molecular weight with more than 15 molecular weight with more than 15 fragments you have found artifacts that fragments you have found artifacts that fragments you have found artifacts that can only be produced at least on Earth can only be produced at least on Earth can only be produced at least on Earth by life now you would say oh well maybe by life now you would say oh well maybe by life now you would say oh well maybe the geological process I would argue the geological process I would argue the geological process I would argue very vly that that is not the case but very vly that that is not the case but very vly that that is not the case but we can say look if you don't like the we can say look if you don't like the we can say look if you don't like the cut off on cut off on cut off on Earth go up higher 30 100 right because Earth go up higher 30 100 right because Earth go up higher 30 100 right because there's going to be a point where you there's going to be a point where you there's going to be a point where you can find a molecule with so many can find a molecule with so many can find a molecule with so many different parts the chances of you different parts the chances of you different parts the chances of you getting a molecule that has a 100 getting a molecule that has a 100 getting a molecule that has a 100 different parts um and finding a million different parts um and finding a million different parts um and finding a million identical copies you know that's that's identical copies you know that's that's identical copies you know that's that's just impossible that could never happen just impossible that could never happen just impossible that could never happen in an infinite set of universes can you

in an infinite set of universes can you in an infinite set of universes can you just Linger on this copy number just Linger on this copy number just Linger on this copy number thing uh a million different thing uh a million different thing uh a million different copies what do you mean by copies and copies what do you mean by copies and copies what do you mean by copies and why is the number of copies why is the number of copies why is the number of copies important yeah that was so interesting important yeah that was so interesting important yeah that was so interesting and the um and the um and the um I always understood the copy number was I always understood the copy number was I always understood the copy number was really important but I never explained really important but I never explained really important but I never explained it properly it properly it properly for ages um and it be I kept having this for ages um and it be I kept having this for ages um and it be I kept having this it goes back to this if I give you a um it goes back to this if I give you a um it goes back to this if I give you a um I don't know a really complicated I don't know a really complicated I don't know a really complicated molecule and I say it's complicated you molecule and I say it's complicated you molecule and I say it's complicated you could say hey that's really complicated could say hey that's really complicated could say hey that's really complicated but is it just really random and so so I but is it just really random and so so I but is it just really random and so so I realized that ultimate Randomness and realized that ultimate Randomness and realized that ultimate Randomness and ultimate complexity are ultimate complexity are ultimate complexity are indistinguishable indistinguishable indistinguishable until you can um you can see a structure until you can um you can see a structure until you can um you can see a structure in the randomness so you can see copies in the randomness so you can see copies in the randomness so you can see copies so copies imply structure structure yeah the fact I mean there's a deep yeah the fact I mean there's a deep yeah the fact I mean there's a deep profound thing in there cuz like if you profound thing in there cuz like if you profound thing in there cuz like if you just have a just have a just have a random random process you're going to random random process you're going to random random process you're going to get a lot of complex beautiful get a lot of complex beautiful get a lot of complex beautiful sophisticated things mhm what makes sophisticated things mhm what makes sophisticated things mhm what makes them complex in the way we think life is them complex in the way we think life is them complex in the way we think life is complex or um yeah something like a a complex or um yeah something like a a complex or um yeah something like a a factory that's operating under selection factory that's operating under selection factory that's operating under selection processes there should be copies is processes there should be copies is processes there should be copies is there like some looseness about copies there like some looseness about copies there like some looseness about copies like what does it mean for two objects like what does it mean for two objects like what does it mean for two objects to be equal it it's it's all to do with

to be equal it it's it's all to do with to be equal it it's it's all to do with the the telescope or the microscope the the telescope or the microscope the the telescope or the microscope you're using and so at the the maximum you're using and so at the the maximum you're using and so at the the maximum resolution so in the nice thing about resolution so in the nice thing about resolution so in the nice thing about the nice thing about chemists is they the nice thing about chemists is they the nice thing about chemists is they have this concept of the molecule and have this concept of the molecule and have this concept of the molecule and they're all familiar with a molecule and they're all familiar with a molecule and they're all familiar with a molecule and molecules you can hold you know on your molecules you can hold you know on your molecules you can hold you know on your hand lots of them identical copies a hand lots of them identical copies a hand lots of them identical copies a molecues actually a super important molecues actually a super important molecues actually a super important thing chemistry to say look you can have thing chemistry to say look you can have thing chemistry to say look you can have a mole of a molecule and avagadro's a mole of a molecule and avagadro's a mole of a molecule and avagadro's number of molecules and they're number of molecules and they're number of molecules and they're identical what does that mean that means identical what does that mean that means identical what does that mean that means that the molecular composition the that the molecular composition the that the molecular composition the bonding and so on the configuration is bonding and so on the configuration is bonding and so on the configuration is all is is indistinguishable you can hold all is is indistinguishable you can hold all is is indistinguishable you can hold them together you can overlay them so them together you can overlay them so them together you can overlay them so the way of do it is if I say here's a the way of do it is if I say here's a the way of do it is if I say here's a bag um of 10 identical molecules let's bag um of 10 identical molecules let's bag um of 10 identical molecules let's prove they're identical you pick one out prove they're identical you pick one out prove they're identical you pick one out of the the out of the bag and you of the the out of the bag and you of the the out of the bag and you basically observe it using some basically observe it using some basically observe it using some technique and then you put it you take technique and then you put it you take technique and then you put it you take it away and then you take another one it away and then you take another one it away and then you take another one out If You observe it using technique out If You observe it using technique out If You observe it using technique you see no differences they're identical you see no differences they're identical you see no differences they're identical it's really interesting to get right it's really interesting to get right it's really interesting to get right because if you take say two molecules because if you take say two molecules because if you take say two molecules molecules can be in different molecules can be in different molecules can be in different vibrational rotational States they're vibrational rotational States they're vibrational rotational States they're moving all the time so for this respect moving all the time so for this respect moving all the time so for this respect identical molecules have identical identical molecules have identical identical molecules have identical bonding in this case we don't even um bonding in this case we don't even um bonding in this case we don't even um talk about chirality because we don't talk about chirality because we don't talk about chirality because we don't have a chirality detector so two have a chirality detector so two have a chirality detector so two identical molecules in one conception identical molecules in one conception identical molecules in one conception sembly Theory basically um considers sembly Theory basically um considers sembly Theory basically um considers both hands as being the same um but of both hands as being the same um but of both hands as being the same um but of but of course they're not they're but of course they're not they're but of course they're not they're different as soon as you have a chyro different as soon as you have a chyro different as soon as you have a chyro distinguisher detect to detect the left distinguisher detect to detect the left distinguisher detect to detect the left and the right hand they become different and the right hand they become different and the right hand they become different and so it's to do with the detection and so it's to do with the detection and so it's to do with the detection system that you have and the resolution

system that you have and the resolution system that you have and the resolution so I wonder if there's an art and so I wonder if there's an art and so I wonder if there's an art and science to the which detection system is science to the which detection system is science to the which detection system is used when you show up to a new planet used when you show up to a new planet used when you show up to a new planet yeah yeah yeah so like you're talking yeah yeah yeah so like you're talking yeah yeah yeah so like you're talking about chemistry a lot today we have kind about chemistry a lot today we have kind about chemistry a lot today we have kind of standardized detection systems right of standardized detection systems right of standardized detection systems right of how to compare of how to compare of how to compare molecules so you know when you start to molecules so you know when you start to molecules so you know when you start to talk about emojis and language and uh talk about emojis and language and uh talk about emojis and language and uh mathematical theorems mathematical theorems mathematical theorems and uh I don't know more sophisticated and uh I don't know more sophisticated and uh I don't know more sophisticated things at different scale at a smaller things at different scale at a smaller things at different scale at a smaller scale than molecules at a larger scale scale than molecules at a larger scale scale than molecules at a larger scale the the the molecules like what molecules like what molecules like what detection like if if we look at the detection like if if we look at the detection like if if we look at the difference between you and me Lex andly difference between you and me Lex andly difference between you and me Lex andly are we the same are we different sure I are we the same are we different sure I are we the same are we different sure I mean of course we're different close up mean of course we're different close up mean of course we're different close up but if you zoom out a little bit will but if you zoom out a little bit will but if you zoom out a little bit will morphologically look the morphologically look the morphologically look the same you know height and characteristics same you know height and characteristics same you know height and characteristics hair length stuff like that also like hair length stuff like that also like hair length stuff like that also like the species and yeah yeah yeah and and the species and yeah yeah yeah and and the species and yeah yeah yeah and and also there's a sense why we're both from also there's a sense why we're both from also there's a sense why we're both from Earth yeah I I agree I mean this is the Earth yeah I I agree I mean this is the Earth yeah I I agree I mean this is the power of assembly theory in that regard power of assembly theory in that regard power of assembly theory in that regard that you if if you so if everything so that you if if you so if everything so that you if if you so if everything so the way to look at it if you have a box the way to look at it if you have a box the way to look at it if you have a box of objects if they're all if they're all of objects if they're all if they're all of objects if they're all if they're all indistinguishable um then using your indistinguishable um then using your indistinguishable um then using your Technique you then you what you then do Technique you then you what you then do Technique you then you what you then do is you then look at the assembly index is you then look at the assembly index is you then look at the assembly index now if the assembly index of them is now if the assembly index of them is now if the assembly index of them is really low right and they all they're really low right and they all they're really low right and they all they're all indistinguishable then You' then all indistinguishable then You' then all indistinguishable then You' then it's telling you that you have to go to

it's telling you that you have to go to it's telling you that you have to go to another resolution so that would be you another resolution so that would be you another resolution so that would be you know it's kind of a sighting scale it's know it's kind of a sighting scale it's know it's kind of a sighting scale it's kind of nice so got it so those two kind kind of nice so got it so those two kind kind of nice so got it so those two kind of are attentional with each other the of are attentional with each other the of are attentional with each other the co the number of copies and the assembly co the number of copies and the assembly co the number of copies and the assembly index index index yeah that's really really interesting so yeah that's really really interesting so yeah that's really really interesting so okay so you show up to a new planet you okay so you show up to a new planet you okay so you show up to a new planet you doing what I would do Mass Spec I would doing what I would do Mass Spec I would doing what I would do Mass Spec I would bring on a sample of what like First of bring on a sample of what like First of bring on a sample of what like First of all like how big of a scoop do you take all like how big of a scoop do you take all like how big of a scoop do you take do you just take a scoop like what like do you just take a scoop like what like do you just take a scoop like what like uh so we're looking for primitive life I uh so we're looking for primitive life I uh so we're looking for primitive life I would I would look yeah so if you're would I would look yeah so if you're would I would look yeah so if you're just going to Mars or Titan or Enceladus just going to Mars or Titan or Enceladus just going to Mars or Titan or Enceladus or somewhere so a number of ways of or somewhere so a number of ways of or somewhere so a number of ways of doing it so you could take a large scoop doing it so you could take a large scoop doing it so you could take a large scoop or you go for the atmosphere and detect or you go for the atmosphere and detect or you go for the atmosphere and detect stuff so and you can make a li um a life stuff so and you can make a li um a life stuff so and you can make a li um a life meter right so um one of uh uh Sarah's meter right so um one of uh uh Sarah's meter right so um one of uh uh Sarah's colleagues at ASU Paul Davis keeps colleagues at ASU Paul Davis keeps colleagues at ASU Paul Davis keeps calling it a life me a life meter which calling it a life me a life meter which calling it a life me a life meter which is quite a nice idea because you think is quite a nice idea because you think is quite a nice idea because you think about it if you've got um a living about it if you've got um a living about it if you've got um a living system that's producing these uh highly system that's producing these uh highly system that's producing these uh highly complex molecules and they drift away complex molecules and they drift away complex molecules and they drift away and they're in a highly um kind of and they're in a highly um kind of and they're in a highly um kind of um demanding environment they could be um demanding environment they could be um demanding environment they could be burnt right so they could just be burnt right so they could just be burnt right so they could just be falling apart so you want to sniff a falling apart so you want to sniff a falling apart so you want to sniff a little bit of complexity and say warmer little bit of complexity and say warmer little bit of complexity and say warmer warmer warmer oh we' found life found warmer warmer oh we' found life found warmer warmer oh we' found life found the alien we found we found the alien the alien we found we found the alien the alien we found we found the alien Elon Musk smoking a joint in the bottom Elon Musk smoking a joint in the bottom Elon Musk smoking a joint in the bottom of the cave on mars or Elon himself of the cave on mars or Elon himself of the cave on mars or Elon himself whatever right you say okay found it so whatever right you say okay found it so whatever right you say okay found it so what you can do is the mass spectrometer what you can do is the mass spectrometer what you can do is the mass spectrometer um you could just look for things in the

um you could just look for things in the um you could just look for things in the gas phase or you go on the surface drill gas phase or you go on the surface drill gas phase or you go on the surface drill down because you want to find molecules down because you want to find molecules down because you want to find molecules that are well you you've either got to that are well you you've either got to that are well you you've either got to find the source living system because find the source living system because find the source living system because the problem with just looking for the problem with just looking for the problem with just looking for complexity is it gets burnt away so in a complexity is it gets burnt away so in a complexity is it gets burnt away so in a harsh environment on on on say on the M harsh environment on on on say on the M harsh environment on on on say on the M surface of Mars there's a very low surface of Mars there's a very low surface of Mars there's a very low probability that you're going to find probability that you're going to find probability that you're going to find really complex molecules because of all really complex molecules because of all really complex molecules because of all the radiation and so on if you drill the radiation and so on if you drill the radiation and so on if you drill down a little bit you could drill down a down a little bit you could drill down a down a little bit you could drill down a bit into into a soil that's billions of bit into into a soil that's billions of bit into into a soil that's billions of years old then I would put in some years old then I would put in some years old then I would put in some solvent water alcohol or something or solvent water alcohol or something or solvent water alcohol or something or take a a scoop put it in put VI make it take a a scoop put it in put VI make it take a a scoop put it in put VI make it volatile put it into the mass volatile put it into the mass volatile put it into the mass spectrometer and just try and detect spectrometer and just try and detect spectrometer and just try and detect High complexity High abundant molecules High complexity High abundant molecules High complexity High abundant molecules and if you get them hey Presto you can and if you get them hey Presto you can and if you get them hey Presto you can have evidence of Life mhm wouldn't that have evidence of Life mhm wouldn't that have evidence of Life mhm wouldn't that then be great if you could say okay then be great if you could say okay then be great if you could say okay we've found evidence of life now we want we've found evidence of life now we want we've found evidence of life now we want to keep keep the life meter keep to keep keep the life meter keep to keep keep the life meter keep searching for more and more complexity searching for more and more complexity searching for more and more complexity until you actually find living cells and until you actually find living cells and until you actually find living cells and you get those new living cells and then you get those new living cells and then you get those new living cells and then and then you could bring them back to and then you could bring them back to and then you could bring them back to Earth or you could try and sequence them Earth or you could try and sequence them Earth or you could try and sequence them you could see that they have different you could see that they have different you could see that they have different DNA and proteins go along the gradient DNA and proteins go along the gradient DNA and proteins go along the gradient of the life meter how would you build a of the life meter how would you build a of the life meter how would you build a life meter let's say we're together life meter let's say we're together life meter let's say we're together starting new company launching a life starting new company launching a life starting new company launching a life meter spectrometer would be the first meter spectrometer would be the first meter spectrometer would be the first way of doing it just take no no no but way of doing it just take no no no but way of doing it just take no no no but that's that's um that's one of the major that's that's um that's one of the major that's that's um that's one of the major components of it but I'm talking about components of it but I'm talking about components of it but I'm talking about like what if it's a device we got to and like what if it's a device we got to and like what if it's a device we got to and branding logo we got to talk that that's branding logo we got to talk that that's branding logo we got to talk that that's later but what's the input what's the

later but what's the input what's the later but what's the input what's the like how do you get to the um a metered like how do you get to the um a metered like how do you get to the um a metered output so I would I would take a life so output so I would I would take a life so output so I would I would take a life so my my life meter our life meter there my my life meter our life meter there my my life meter our life meter there you go thank you yeah you're you go thank you yeah you're you go thank you yeah you're welcome um uh would have both infrared welcome um uh would have both infrared welcome um uh would have both infrared and mpect so it would have two ports so and mpect so it would have two ports so and mpect so it would have two ports so it could shine a light um and so what it it could shine a light um and so what it it could shine a light um and so what it would do is you would have a a vacuum would do is you would have a a vacuum would do is you would have a a vacuum chamber and you would have an chamber and you would have an chamber and you would have an electrostatic analyzer and you'd have a electrostatic analyzer and you'd have a electrostatic analyzer and you'd have a monochromator to producing infrared um monochromator to producing infrared um monochromator to producing infrared um you'd add the sum so You' take a scoop you'd add the sum so You' take a scoop you'd add the sum so You' take a scoop of the sample put it in the Life meter of the sample put it in the Life meter of the sample put it in the Life meter it would then add a solvent or heat up it would then add a solvent or heat up it would then add a solvent or heat up the sample so some volatiles come off the sample so some volatiles come off the sample so some volatiles come off the volatiles would then be put into the the volatiles would then be put into the the volatiles would then be put into the into the mass spectromet into into the mass spectromet into into the mass spectromet into electrostatic trap and you'd weigh them electrostatic trap and you'd weigh them electrostatic trap and you'd weigh them all molecules and fragment them M all molecules and fragment them M all molecules and fragment them M alternatively you'd shine infrared light alternatively you'd shine infrared light alternatively you'd shine infrared light on them you count the number of bands on them you count the number of bands on them you count the number of bands but you'd have to in that case do some but you'd have to in that case do some but you'd have to in that case do some separation because you want to separate separation because you want to separate separation because you want to separate in and so in Mass Spec it's really nice in and so in Mass Spec it's really nice in and so in Mass Spec it's really nice and convenient because you can separate and convenient because you can separate and convenient because you can separate electrostatically but um you need to electrostatically but um you need to electrostatically but um you need to have that can you do it in real time have that can you do it in real time have that can you do it in real time yeah pretty much pretty much yeah so yeah pretty much pretty much yeah so yeah pretty much pretty much yeah so let's go all the way back so this okay let's go all the way back so this okay let's go all the way back so this okay we're really going get this the the we're really going get this the the we're really going get this the the lexa's life meat Lex and lexa's life meat Lex and lexa's life meat Lex and Lees it's a good it's a good good uh Lees it's a good it's a good good uh Lees it's a good it's a good good uh good ring to it all right so um you have good ring to it all right so um you have good ring to it all right so um you have a a a you have a vacuum chamber you have a you have a vacuum chamber you have a you have a vacuum chamber you have a little nose the nose would have um little nose the nose would have um little nose the nose would have um some a a packing material so you would some a a packing material so you would some a a packing material so you would take your your sample add it onto the take your your sample add it onto the take your your sample add it onto the nose add a solvent or a gas it would

nose add a solvent or a gas it would nose add a solvent or a gas it would then be sucked up the nose and that then be sucked up the nose and that then be sucked up the nose and that would be separated using Chrome what we would be separated using Chrome what we would be separated using Chrome what we call chromatography and then as each call chromatography and then as each call chromatography and then as each band comes off the nose we would then do band comes off the nose we would then do band comes off the nose we would then do mass backc and infrared and in the count mass backc and infrared and in the count mass backc and infrared and in the count in the case of infrared count the number in the case of infrared count the number in the case of infrared count the number of bands in the case of mass count the of bands in the case of mass count the of bands in the case of mass count the number of fragments and weigh it and the number of fragments and weigh it and the number of fragments and weigh it and the further up in molecular weight range for further up in molecular weight range for further up in molecular weight range for the mass spec and the number of bands the mass spec and the number of bands the mass spec and the number of bands you go up and up and up from the you you go up and up and up from the you you go up and up and up from the you know dead interesting interesting over know dead interesting interesting over know dead interesting interesting over the threshold oh my gosh Earth life and the threshold oh my gosh Earth life and the threshold oh my gosh Earth life and then right up to bat crazy this is then right up to bat crazy this is then right up to bat crazy this is definitely um you know alien definitely um you know alien definitely um you know alien intelligence that's made this life right intelligence that's made this life right intelligence that's made this life right you could almost go all the way there you could almost go all the way there you could almost go all the way there same in the infrared and it's pretty same in the infrared and it's pretty same in the infrared and it's pretty simple the thing that is really simple the thing that is really simple the thing that is really problematical is that for many years problematical is that for many years problematical is that for many years decades what people have done and and I decades what people have done and and I decades what people have done and and I can't blame them is they've rather can't blame them is they've rather can't blame them is they've rather they've been obsessing about small they've been obsessing about small they've been obsessing about small biomarkers on that we find on Earth biomarkers on that we find on Earth biomarkers on that we find on Earth amino acids like single amino acids or amino acids like single amino acids or amino acids like single amino acids or evidence of small molecules and these evidence of small molecules and these evidence of small molecules and these things and looking for those run looking things and looking for those run looking things and looking for those run looking for complexity the well the be beautiful for complexity the well the be beautiful for complexity the well the be beautiful thing about this is you can look for um thing about this is you can look for um thing about this is you can look for um complexity without Earth chemistry bias complexity without Earth chemistry bias complexity without Earth chemistry bias or Earth biology bias so assembly theory or Earth biology bias so assembly theory or Earth biology bias so assembly theory is just a way of saying hey complexity is just a way of saying hey complexity is just a way of saying hey complexity and abundance is evidence of selection and abundance is evidence of selection and abundance is evidence of selection that's how universal life meter will that's how universal life meter will that's how universal life meter will work complexity in abundance is evidence work complexity in abundance is evidence work complexity in abundance is evidence of of of selection okay so let's apply our life selection okay so let's apply our life selection okay so let's apply our life meter to meter to meter to Earth

Earth Earth so what you know if we were just to so what you know if we were just to so what you know if we were just to apply assembly index measurements to apply assembly index measurements to apply assembly index measurements to Earth what do what what kind of stuff Earth what do what what kind of stuff Earth what do what what kind of stuff are going to be get uh are going to get are going to be get uh are going to get are going to be get uh are going to get what's what's what's impressive about some of the complexity impressive about some of the complexity impressive about some of the complexity on Earth so we did this a few years ago on Earth so we did this a few years ago on Earth so we did this a few years ago in that um when I was trying to convince in that um when I was trying to convince in that um when I was trying to convince NASA and colleagues that this technique NASA and colleagues that this technique NASA and colleagues that this technique could work and honestly it's so funny could work and honestly it's so funny could work and honestly it's so funny because everyone's like no ain't going because everyone's like no ain't going because everyone's like no ain't going to to to work and I was just like because the work and I was just like because the work and I was just like because the chemist was saying of course there are chemist was saying of course there are chemist was saying of course there are complicated molecules out there you can complicated molecules out there you can complicated molecules out there you can detect that just form randomly I was detect that just form randomly I was detect that just form randomly I was like re really that's like that was like like re really that's like that was like like re really that's like that was like you know as a bit like you know as a bit like you know as a bit like a um I don't know someone saying of a um I don't know someone saying of a um I don't know someone saying of course Darwin textbook was just written course Darwin textbook was just written course Darwin textbook was just written randomly by some monkeys a typew just randomly by some monkeys a typew just randomly by some monkeys a typew just for me it was like really and and and I for me it was like really and and and I for me it was like really and and and I pushed a lot on the chemist now and I pushed a lot on the chemist now and I pushed a lot on the chemist now and I think most of them are on board but not think most of them are on board but not think most of them are on board but not totally I re really had some big totally I re really had some big totally I re really had some big arguments but the copy number caught arguments but the copy number caught arguments but the copy number caught there cuz I think I confused the chemist there cuz I think I confused the chemist there cuz I think I confused the chemist by saying one off and then when I made by saying one off and then when I made by saying one off and then when I made clear about the copy number I think that clear about the copy number I think that clear about the copy number I think that made it a little bit easier just to made it a little bit easier just to made it a little bit easier just to clarify chemist might say that of course clarify chemist might say that of course clarify chemist might say that of course out there outside of Earth there's out there outside of Earth there's out there outside of Earth there's complex molecules yes okay and then complex molecules yes okay and then complex molecules yes okay and then you're saying wait a minute that's like you're saying wait a minute that's like you're saying wait a minute that's like saying of course there's aliens out saying of course there's aliens out saying of course there's aliens out there like you yeah exactly that okay there like you yeah exactly that okay there like you yeah exactly that okay exactly but you're you're saying you exactly but you're you're saying you exactly but you're you're saying you clarify clarify clarify that that's actually a very interesting that that's actually a very interesting that that's actually a very interesting question and we should be looking for question and we should be looking for question and we should be looking for complex molecules of which the copy

complex molecules of which the copy complex molecules of which the copy number is two or greater yeah exactly so number is two or greater yeah exactly so number is two or greater yeah exactly so on Earth so coming back to Earth what we on Earth so coming back to Earth what we on Earth so coming back to Earth what we did is we took a whole bunch of samples did is we took a whole bunch of samples did is we took a whole bunch of samples we and we were running Prebiotic we and we were running Prebiotic we and we were running Prebiotic chemistry experiments in the lab um we chemistry experiments in the lab um we chemistry experiments in the lab um we took various inorganic minerals and took various inorganic minerals and took various inorganic minerals and extracted them look at the volatile extracted them look at the volatile extracted them look at the volatile because there's a special way of because there's a special way of because there's a special way of treating minerals and polymers and treating minerals and polymers and treating minerals and polymers and assembly Theory where what in this in assembly Theory where what in this in assembly Theory where what in this in our life machine we're looking at our life machine we're looking at our life machine we're looking at molecules we don't care about polymers molecules we don't care about polymers molecules we don't care about polymers because they don't they're not volatile because they don't they're not volatile because they don't they're not volatile you can't hold them they're not how how you can't hold them they're not how how you can't hold them they're not how how can you make if you can't assern that can you make if you can't assern that can you make if you can't assern that they're identical then it's very they're identical then it's very they're identical then it's very difficult for you to to to work out if difficult for you to to to work out if difficult for you to to to work out if there undergone selection or they're there undergone selection or they're there undergone selection or they're just a random mess same with some just a random mess same with some just a random mess same with some minerals but we can come back to that so minerals but we can come back to that so minerals but we can come back to that so basically what you do we got whole loads basically what you do we got whole loads basically what you do we got whole loads of samples inorganic ones we got a load of samples inorganic ones we got a load of samples inorganic ones we got a load of we got Scotch whiskey and also got of we got Scotch whiskey and also got of we got Scotch whiskey and also got took arbag which is one of my favorite took arbag which is one of my favorite took arbag which is one of my favorite whiskies which is very pey and another whiskies which is very pey and another whiskies which is very pey and another whis what do py mean is like um so the whis what do py mean is like um so the whis what do py mean is like um so the way that on on um in Scotland in Isa way that on on um in Scotland in Isa way that on on um in Scotland in Isa which is Little Island the the the the which is Little Island the the the the which is Little Island the the the the the scotch the SC the whiskey is led to the scotch the SC the whiskey is led to the scotch the SC the whiskey is led to mature and barrels and um the mature and barrels and um the mature and barrels and um the the it said that the peak you know the the it said that the peak you know the the it said that the peak you know the the the complex molecules in the Pete the the complex molecules in the Pete the the complex molecules in the Pete might find their way through into the might find their way through into the might find their way through into the whiskey and that's what gives it this whiskey and that's what gives it this whiskey and that's what gives it this intense brown color and really complex intense brown color and really complex intense brown color and really complex flavor it's literally molecular flavor it's literally molecular flavor it's literally molecular complexity that does that and so you

complexity that does that and so you complexity that does that and so you know vulka is the complete opposite it's know vulka is the complete opposite it's know vulka is the complete opposite it's just pure right the better the whiskey just pure right the better the whiskey just pure right the better the whiskey the higher the assembly index the the the higher the assembly index the the the higher the assembly index the the higher the assembly index the better the higher the assembly index the better the higher the assembly index the better the whiskey that's I mean I really love deep whiskey that's I mean I really love deep whiskey that's I mean I really love deep PT Scottish whiskies near my house there PT Scottish whiskies near my house there PT Scottish whiskies near my house there is a a low one of the the lowland is a a low one of the the lowland is a a low one of the the lowland distilleries called gleny it's still distilleries called gleny it's still distilleries called gleny it's still beautiful whiskey but not as complex so beautiful whiskey but not as complex so beautiful whiskey but not as complex so for fun I C took some Glen coin whiskey for fun I C took some Glen coin whiskey for fun I C took some Glen coin whiskey andard B and put them into the mass andard B and put them into the mass andard B and put them into the mass backck and measure the assembly index I backck and measure the assembly index I backck and measure the assembly index I also got eoli so the way we do it take also got eoli so the way we do it take also got eoli so the way we do it take the eoli break the cell apart take it the eoli break the cell apart take it the eoli break the cell apart take it all apart um and also got some beer and all apart um and also got some beer and all apart um and also got some beer and and people were ridiculing us saying oh and people were ridiculing us saying oh and people were ridiculing us saying oh beer is evidence of complexity one of beer is evidence of complexity one of beer is evidence of complexity one of the one of the computational uh the one of the computational uh the one of the computational uh complexity people was just complexity people was just complexity people was just throwing yeah we kind of kind of his throwing yeah we kind of kind of his throwing yeah we kind of kind of his very vigorous in his disagreement of very vigorous in his disagreement of very vigorous in his disagreement of assembly theory was just saying you know assembly theory was just saying you know assembly theory was just saying you know you don't know what you're doing even you don't know what you're doing even you don't know what you're doing even beer is more complicated than human what beer is more complicated than human what beer is more complicated than human what we didn't realize is that it's not beer we didn't realize is that it's not beer we didn't realize is that it's not beer per se is taking the yeast extract per se is taking the yeast extract per se is taking the yeast extract taking the extract breaking the cells taking the extract breaking the cells taking the extract breaking the cells extracting the molecules and just extracting the molecules and just extracting the molecules and just looking at the profile of the molecues looking at the profile of the molecues looking at the profile of the molecues see if there's anything over the freshh see if there's anything over the freshh see if there's anything over the freshh hold and we also put in a really complex hold and we also put in a really complex hold and we also put in a really complex molecule taxo so we took all of these molecule taxo so we took all of these molecule taxo so we took all of these but also gave us I think five samples but also gave us I think five samples but also gave us I think five samples and they wouldn't tell us what they are and they wouldn't tell us what they are and they wouldn't tell us what they are they said no we don't believe you're can they said no we don't believe you're can they said no we don't believe you're can get this to work and they really you get this to work and they really you get this to work and they really you know they gave us some super complex know they gave us some super complex know they gave us some super complex samples and they gave us two fossils one samples and they gave us two fossils one samples and they gave us two fossils one that was a million years old and one was that was a million years old and one was that was a million years old and one was a 10,000 years old um SE something from a 10,000 years old um SE something from a 10,000 years old um SE something from Antarctica seabed they gave us IM meras

Antarctica seabed they gave us IM meras Antarctica seabed they gave us IM meras and mea right and a few others put them and mea right and a few others put them and mea right and a few others put them through the system so I we we took all through the system so I we we took all through the system so I we we took all the samples treated them all identically the samples treated them all identically the samples treated them all identically put them into Mass Spec fragmented them put them into Mass Spec fragmented them put them into Mass Spec fragmented them counted in this case implicit in the counted in this case implicit in the counted in this case implicit in the measurement was we um you in Mass backc measurement was we um you in Mass backc measurement was we um you in Mass backc you only you only you only detect um Peaks when you've got more detect um Peaks when you've got more detect um Peaks when you've got more than say let's say 10,000 identical than say let's say 10,000 identical than say let's say 10,000 identical molecules so the copy numberers already molecules so the copy numberers already molecules so the copy numberers already baked in but wasn't Quantified which is baked in but wasn't Quantified which is baked in but wasn't Quantified which is super important there this was in the super important there this was in the super important there this was in the first paper cuz I was like it's abundant first paper cuz I was like it's abundant first paper cuz I was like it's abundant of of of course um and when you then took it all course um and when you then took it all course um and when you then took it all out we found that the biological out we found that the biological out we found that the biological samples um gave you um molecules that samples um gave you um molecules that samples um gave you um molecules that had an assembly index greater than 15 had an assembly index greater than 15 had an assembly index greater than 15 and all the abiotic samples were less and all the abiotic samples were less and all the abiotic samples were less than 15 and then we took the NASA than 15 and then we took the NASA than 15 and then we took the NASA samples and we looked at the ones that samples and we looked at the ones that samples and we looked at the ones that were more than 15 or less than 15 and we were more than 15 or less than 15 and we were more than 15 or less than 15 and we gave them back to NASA and they're like gave them back to NASA and they're like gave them back to NASA and they're like oh gosh yep dead Living Dead living you oh gosh yep dead Living Dead living you oh gosh yep dead Living Dead living you got it and um and that's what we found got it and um and that's what we found got it and um and that's what we found on Earth um that's a success yeah oh on Earth um that's a success yeah oh on Earth um that's a success yeah oh yeah resounding success um well can can yeah resounding success um well can can yeah resounding success um well can can you uh just go back to the beer and the you uh just go back to the beer and the you uh just go back to the beer and the eoli so what's the assembly index on eoli so what's the assembly index on eoli so what's the assembly index on those so what you were able to do is those so what you were able to do is those so what you were able to do is like the assembly index um of we found like the assembly index um of we found like the assembly index um of we found High assembly index molecules orig High assembly index molecules orig High assembly index molecules orig originating from the beer sample and the originating from the beer sample and the originating from the beer sample and the eoli sample so the yeast and the beer I eoli sample so the yeast and the beer I eoli sample so the yeast and the beer I mean there there were I didn't know mean there there were I didn't know mean there there were I didn't know which one was higher we wouldn't really which one was higher we wouldn't really which one was higher we wouldn't really do any detail there because now we are do any detail there because now we are do any detail there because now we are doing that because one of the things

doing that because one of the things doing that because one of the things we've done um it's a secret but I can we've done um it's a secret but I can we've done um it's a secret but I can tell tell tell you I think no nobody's listening well you I think no nobody's listening well you I think no nobody's listening well is that we've just m is that we've just m is that we've just m the Tree of Life using assembly Theory the Tree of Life using assembly Theory the Tree of Life using assembly Theory because everyone said oh you can't do because everyone said oh you can't do because everyone said oh you can't do INF biology and what we're able to do is INF biology and what we're able to do is INF biology and what we're able to do is so you I think there's three way well so you I think there's three way well so you I think there's three way well two ways of doing Tree of Life traff uh two ways of doing Tree of Life traff uh two ways of doing Tree of Life traff uh well three ways actually yeah what's the well three ways actually yeah what's the well three ways actually yeah what's the tree of life so the tree of life is tree of life so the tree of life is tree of life so the tree of life is basically um tracing back the history of basically um tracing back the history of basically um tracing back the history of life on Earth all the different species life on Earth all the different species life on Earth all the different species going back what who evolved from what going back what who evolved from what going back what who evolved from what and it all goes all the way back to the and it all goes all the way back to the and it all goes all the way back to the first kind of life forms and they Branch first kind of life forms and they Branch first kind of life forms and they Branch off and like you have plant kingdom the off and like you have plant kingdom the off and like you have plant kingdom the animal kingdom the fungi system the animal kingdom the fungi system the animal kingdom the fungi system the kingdom you know and different and kingdom you know and different and kingdom you know and different and different branches all the way up um and different branches all the way up um and different branches all the way up um and the way this was classically done and the way this was classically done and the way this was classically done and I'm no evolutionary biologist Evolution I'm no evolutionary biologist Evolution I'm no evolutionary biologist Evolution biologists are very tell me every day at biologists are very tell me every day at biologists are very tell me every day at least 10 times um I want to be one least 10 times um I want to be one least 10 times um I want to be one though I kind of like biology it's kind though I kind of like biology it's kind though I kind of like biology it's kind of cool but yeah it's very cool um but of cool but yeah it's very cool um but of cool but yeah it's very cool um but basically what uh what Darwin and Mel basically what uh what Darwin and Mel basically what uh what Darwin and Mel and all these people do is just they and all these people do is just they and all these people do is just they draw pictures right and they they taxer draw pictures right and they they taxer draw pictures right and they they taxer they just con they were able to draw they just con they were able to draw they just con they were able to draw pictures and and say and say oh these pictures and and say and say oh these pictures and and say and say oh these look like common classes yeah then they're artists really they're just then they're artists really they're just you know but they but they they were you know but they but they they were you know but they but they they were able to find out a lot right and looking able to find out a lot right and looking able to find out a lot right and looking at verbit inance caman explosion all at verbit inance caman explosion all at verbit inance caman explosion all this stuff and then um then came the this stuff and then um then came the this stuff and then um then came the genomic Revolution and suddenly everyone genomic Revolution and suddenly everyone genomic Revolution and suddenly everyone used Gene sequencing and Craig vent is a used Gene sequencing and Craig vent is a used Gene sequencing and Craig vent is a good example I think he's gone around good example I think he's gone around good example I think he's gone around the world and his yacht just taking up

the world and his yacht just taking up the world and his yacht just taking up samples looking for new species where samples looking for new species where samples looking for new species where he's just found new species of life just he's just found new species of life just he's just found new species of life just from sequencing it's amazing so you have from sequencing it's amazing so you have from sequencing it's amazing so you have taxonomy you have sequencing and then taxonomy you have sequencing and then taxonomy you have sequencing and then you can also do a little bit of kind of you can also do a little bit of kind of you can also do a little bit of kind of molecular um uh kind of archaeology like molecular um uh kind of archaeology like molecular um uh kind of archaeology like you know measure the samples and and you know measure the samples and and you know measure the samples and and kind of form some inference what we did kind of form some inference what we did kind of form some inference what we did um is we were able to um is we were able to um is we were able to fingerprint we took a load of random fingerprint we took a load of random fingerprint we took a load of random samples from all of biology and we use samples from all of biology and we use samples from all of biology and we use mass spectrometry and what we did now is mass spectrometry and what we did now is mass spectrometry and what we did now is not just look for individual molecules not just look for individual molecules not just look for individual molecules but we looked for coexisting molecules but we looked for coexisting molecules but we looked for coexisting molecules where they had to look at their joint where they had to look at their joint where they had to look at their joint assembly space assembly space assembly space and where we we able to cut them apart and where we we able to cut them apart and where we we able to cut them apart and and undergo recursion in the M spec and and undergo recursion in the M spec and and undergo recursion in the M spec and infer some relationships and we're and infer some relationships and we're and infer some relationships and we're able to recapitulate the Tree of Life able to recapitulate the Tree of Life able to recapitulate the Tree of Life using mass using mass using mass spectroscopy no sequencing and no spectroscopy no sequencing and no spectroscopy no sequencing and no drawing all right can you uh try to say drawing all right can you uh try to say drawing all right can you uh try to say that again with a little more detail so that again with a little more detail so that again with a little more detail so recreating what does it take to recreate recreating what does it take to recreate recreating what does it take to recreate the Tree of Life what is the reverse the Tree of Life what is the reverse the Tree of Life what is the reverse engineering process look like here so engineering process look like here so engineering process look like here so what you do is you take an unknown what you do is you take an unknown what you do is you take an unknown sample you P it into the mass backc sample you P it into the mass backc sample you P it into the mass backc you get a because this comes from what you get a because this comes from what you get a because this comes from what you asking like what do you see in ecoli you asking like what do you see in ecoli you asking like what do you see in ecoli and so in eoli you don't just see it's and so in eoli you don't just see it's and so in eoli you don't just see it's not a it's not it's not the the most not a it's not it's not the the most not a it's not it's not the the most sophisticated um cells on on Earth make sophisticated um cells on on Earth make sophisticated um cells on on Earth make the most sophisticated molecules it is the most sophisticated molecules it is the most sophisticated molecules it is the coexistence of lots of complex the coexistence of lots of complex the coexistence of lots of complex molecules above a threshold and so what molecules above a threshold and so what molecules above a threshold and so what we realize is you could fingerprint we realize is you could fingerprint we realize is you could fingerprint different life forms so fungi make

different life forms so fungi make different life forms so fungi make really complicated molecules why cuz really complicated molecules why cuz really complicated molecules why cuz they can't move they have to make they can't move they have to make they can't move they have to make everything on site um whereas you know everything on site um whereas you know everything on site um whereas you know some animals are like lazy they can just some animals are like lazy they can just some animals are like lazy they can just go eat the fungi they don't need to make go eat the fungi they don't need to make go eat the fungi they don't need to make very much and I um and so what you do is very much and I um and so what you do is very much and I um and so what you do is you look at the so you take I don't know you look at the so you take I don't know you look at the so you take I don't know the fingerprint maybe the top number of the fingerprint maybe the top number of the fingerprint maybe the top number of high molecular weight molecules you find high molecular weight molecules you find high molecular weight molecules you find in the sample you fragment them to get in the sample you fragment them to get in the sample you fragment them to get their assembly indices and then what you their assembly indices and then what you their assembly indices and then what you can do is you can infer common origins can do is you can infer common origins can do is you can infer common origins of molecules you can do a kind of of molecules you can do a kind of of molecules you can do a kind of molecular um um when the reverse molecular um um when the reverse molecular um um when the reverse engineering of the assembly space you engineering of the assembly space you engineering of the assembly space you can infer common roots and look at can infer common roots and look at can infer common roots and look at what's called The Joint assembly space what's called The Joint assembly space what's called The Joint assembly space um but what let's translate that into um but what let's translate that into um but what let's translate that into the experiment take a sample bung it in the experiment take a sample bung it in the experiment take a sample bung it in the M spec take the top say 10 molecules the M spec take the top say 10 molecules the M spec take the top say 10 molecules fragment them and then and that gives fragment them and then and that gives fragment them and then and that gives you one fingerprint then you do it for you one fingerprint then you do it for you one fingerprint then you do it for another sample you get another another sample you get another another sample you get another fingerprint now the question is you say fingerprint now the question is you say fingerprint now the question is you say hey are these samples the same or hey are these samples the same or hey are these samples the same or different and that's what we've been different and that's what we've been different and that's what we've been able to do and um by basically looking able to do and um by basically looking able to do and um by basically looking at the assembly space of these molec at the assembly space of these molec at the assembly space of these molec create without any knowledge of assembly create without any knowledge of assembly create without any knowledge of assembly Theory you are unable to do it with a Theory you are unable to do it with a Theory you are unable to do it with a knowledge of assembly Theory you can con knowledge of assembly Theory you can con knowledge of assembly Theory you can con reconstruct the tree how does how does reconstruct the tree how does how does reconstruct the tree how does how does knowing if they're the same or different knowing if they're the same or different knowing if they're the same or different give you the tree let's go to two leaves give you the tree let's go to two leaves give you the tree let's go to two leaves on different branches on the tree right on different branches on the tree right on different branches on the tree right what you can do by counting the number what you can do by counting the number what you can do by counting the number of differences you can estimate how far of differences you can estimate how far of differences you can estimate how far away their origin was got it and that's away their origin was got it and that's away their origin was got it and that's all we do and it just works but when we

all we do and it just works but when we all we do and it just works but when we realize you could even use assembly realize you could even use assembly realize you could even use assembly Theory to recapitulate the Tree of Life Theory to recapitulate the Tree of Life Theory to recapitulate the Tree of Life with no Gene sequencing we're like huh with no Gene sequencing we're like huh with no Gene sequencing we're like huh so this this is looking at samples that so this this is looking at samples that so this this is looking at samples that exist today in the world what about like exist today in the world what about like exist today in the world what about like things that are no longer exist I mean things that are no longer exist I mean things that are no longer exist I mean the tree contains information about the the tree contains information about the the tree contains information about the past I would some of it is gone yeah past I would some of it is gone yeah past I would some of it is gone yeah yeah absolutely I would love to get old yeah absolutely I would love to get old yeah absolutely I would love to get old fossil samples and apply assembly Theory fossil samples and apply assembly Theory fossil samples and apply assembly Theory MPC and see if we can find new forms of MPC and see if we can find new forms of MPC and see if we can find new forms of life that have that are no longer amable life that have that are no longer amable life that have that are no longer amable to Gene sequencing because the DNA is to Gene sequencing because the DNA is to Gene sequencing because the DNA is all gone cuz DNA DNA and RNA is quite all gone cuz DNA DNA and RNA is quite all gone cuz DNA DNA and RNA is quite unstable but some of the more complex unstable but some of the more complex unstable but some of the more complex molecules might be there might give you molecules might be there might give you molecules might be there might give you a hint of something new or wouldn't it a hint of something new or wouldn't it a hint of something new or wouldn't it be great if you if you find a sample be great if you if you find a sample be great if you if you find a sample that's worth really persevering and that's worth really persevering and that's worth really persevering and doing um you know doing uh the proper doing um you know doing uh the proper doing um you know doing uh the proper extraction to re to you know PCR and so extraction to re to you know PCR and so extraction to re to you know PCR and so on and then sequence it and then put it on and then sequence it and then put it on and then sequence it and then put it together so when the thing dies you can together so when the thing dies you can together so when the thing dies you can still get some information about it's still get some information about it's still get some information about it's complexity yeah and we can and it complexity yeah and we can and it complexity yeah and we can and it appears that you can um do some dating appears that you can um do some dating appears that you can um do some dating now there are really good techniques now there are really good techniques now there are really good techniques there's radiocarbon dating there is um there's radiocarbon dating there is um there's radiocarbon dating there is um longer dating going looking at longer dating going looking at longer dating going looking at radioactive minerals and so on and you radioactive minerals and so on and you radioactive minerals and so on and you can also in bone you can look at the can also in bone you can look at the can also in bone you can look at the what happens in after something dies is what happens in after something dies is what happens in after something dies is the IM the you get what's called ramiz the IM the you get what's called ramiz the IM the you get what's called ramiz where the the the chirality in the where the the the chirality in the where the the the chirality in the polymers basically changes and you just polymers basically changes and you just polymers basically changes and you just get you get decomposition and the rate

get you get decomposition and the rate get you get decomposition and the rate of the deviation from the pure po um uh of the deviation from the pure po um uh of the deviation from the pure po um uh U en antima to the mixture you can have U en antima to the mixture you can have U en antima to the mixture you can have a it gives you a time time scale on it a it gives you a time time scale on it a it gives you a time time scale on it halflife so you can date when it died I halflife so you can date when it died I halflife so you can date when it died I want to use assembly Theory to see if I want to use assembly Theory to see if I want to use assembly Theory to see if I can date use it date death and things can date use it date death and things can date use it date death and things and and Trace the tree of life and also and and Trace the tree of life and also and and Trace the tree of life and also decomposition of molecules you think decomposition of molecules you think decomposition of molecules you think it's possible oh yeah without a doubt it it's possible oh yeah without a doubt it it's possible oh yeah without a doubt it may not be better than what cuz like the may not be better than what cuz like the may not be better than what cuz like the I was just at a conference where some I was just at a conference where some I was just at a conference where some brilliant people looking at isotope AR brilliant people looking at isotope AR brilliant people looking at isotope AR wrenchmen and and looking at how life wrenchmen and and looking at how life wrenchmen and and looking at how life enriches Isotopes and they're really enriches Isotopes and they're really enriches Isotopes and they're really sophisticated stuff that they're doing sophisticated stuff that they're doing sophisticated stuff that they're doing but I think there's some fun to be had but I think there's some fun to be had but I think there's some fun to be had there because it gives you another there because it gives you another there because it gives you another dimension of dating how old is this dimension of dating how old is this dimension of dating how old is this molecule um in terms of in or more molecule um in terms of in or more molecule um in terms of in or more importantly how long ago was this importantly how long ago was this importantly how long ago was this molecule produced by life the more molecule produced by life the more molecule produced by life the more complex a molecule the more Prospect for complex a molecule the more Prospect for complex a molecule the more Prospect for decomposition oxidation reorganization decomposition oxidation reorganization decomposition oxidation reorganization loss of chirality and all that jazz but loss of chirality and all that jazz but loss of chirality and all that jazz but what life also does is it enriches as what life also does is it enriches as what life also does is it enriches as you get older the the amount of carbon you get older the the amount of carbon you get older the the amount of carbon 13 in you goes 13 in you goes 13 in you goes up because of the because of the way the up because of the because of the way the up because of the because of the way the metabol because of the way the the metabol because of the way the the metabol because of the way the the bonding is in in carbon 13 so it has a bonding is in in carbon 13 so it has a bonding is in in carbon 13 so it has a slightly different strength bond slightly different strength bond slightly different strength bond strength from you is called a kinetic strength from you is called a kinetic strength from you is called a kinetic isotope effect so you can literally date isotope effect so you can literally date isotope effect so you can literally date how old you are you know uh or when you how old you are you know uh or when you how old you are you know uh or when you stop metabolizing so you could date stop metabolizing so you could date stop metabolizing so you could date someone's debt how old they are I think someone's debt how old they are I think someone's debt how old they are I think I'm making this up this might be right I'm making this up this might be right I'm making this up this might be right but I think it's roughly right the but I think it's roughly right the but I think it's roughly right the amount of carbon 13 you have in you you

amount of carbon 13 you have in you you amount of carbon 13 you have in you you can kind of estimate how how old you are can kind of estimate how how old you are can kind of estimate how how old you are how how how old living or humans are or living or old living or humans are or living or old living or humans are or living or yeah like you could say oh this person yeah like you could say oh this person yeah like you could say oh this person is 10 years old and this person 30 years is 10 years old and this person 30 years is 10 years old and this person 30 years old because they' be metabolizing more old because they' be metabolizing more old because they' be metabolizing more carbon and they've accumulated it that's carbon and they've accumulated it that's carbon and they've accumulated it that's the basic idea it's probably completely the basic idea it's probably completely the basic idea it's probably completely wrong time scale signatures of of wrong time scale signatures of of wrong time scale signatures of of chemistry are fasing so you've been chemistry are fasing so you've been chemistry are fasing so you've been seeing a lot of seeing a lot of seeing a lot of chemistry examples for assembly Theory chemistry examples for assembly Theory chemistry examples for assembly Theory what if we zoom out and look at a bigger what if we zoom out and look at a bigger what if we zoom out and look at a bigger scale of an object scale of an object scale of an object mhm you know like really complex objects mhm you know like really complex objects mhm you know like really complex objects like like like humans or living humans or living humans or living organisms that are made up of you know organisms that are made up of you know organisms that are made up of you know millions or billions of other organisms millions or billions of other organisms millions or billions of other organisms how how do how how do how how do you try to apply assembly Theory to that you try to apply assembly Theory to that you try to apply assembly Theory to that at the moment um we're we're we should at the moment um we're we're we should at the moment um we're we're we should be able to do this to morphology in be able to do this to morphology in be able to do this to morphology in cells so we're looking at cell surfaces cells so we're looking at cell surfaces cells so we're looking at cell surfaces and really trying to extend further it's and really trying to extend further it's and really trying to extend further it's just that you know we work so hard to just that you know we work so hard to just that you know we work so hard to get this paper out and people to start get this paper out and people to start get this paper out and people to start discussing the ideas and I was and but discussing the ideas and I was and but discussing the ideas and I was and but but it's kind of funny because I think but it's kind of funny because I think but it's kind of funny because I think the P the the penny is falling on this the P the the penny is falling on this the P the the penny is falling on this so yeah so this that even what what so yeah so this that even what what so yeah so this that even what what what's it mean for a penny to be I mean what's it mean for a penny to be I mean what's it mean for a penny to be I mean the the Penny's dropped right because a the the Penny's dropped right because a the the Penny's dropped right because a lot of people were like it's rubbish lot of people were like it's rubbish lot of people were like it's rubbish it's rubbish you've insulted me it's it's rubbish you've insulted me it's it's rubbish you've insulted me it's wrong and I'm and then you know I mean wrong and I'm and then you know I mean wrong and I'm and then you know I mean the paper got published on the 4th of the paper got published on the 4th of the paper got published on the 4th of October it had 2.3 million engagements October it had 2.3 million engagements October it had 2.3 million engagements on Twitter right and has been downloaded on Twitter right and has been downloaded on Twitter right and has been downloaded over few hundred thousand times and over few hundred thousand times and over few hundred thousand times and someone actually said to me wrote to me

someone actually said to me wrote to me someone actually said to me wrote to me and said this is an example really bad and said this is an example really bad and said this is an example really bad writing and what not to do and I was writing and what not to do and I was writing and what not to do and I was like if all of my papers got read this like if all of my papers got read this like if all of my papers got read this much cuz that's the objective if I have much cuz that's the objective if I have much cuz that's the objective if I have a publishing a paper on people to read a publishing a paper on people to read a publishing a paper on people to read it I want to write that badly again yeah it I want to write that badly again yeah it I want to write that badly again yeah I don't know what's the Deep Insight I don't know what's the Deep Insight I don't know what's the Deep Insight here about the negativity in the space I here about the negativity in the space I here about the negativity in the space I think it's probably the immune system of think it's probably the immune system of think it's probably the immune system of the scientific Community making sure the scientific Community making sure the scientific Community making sure that there's no that gets that there's no that gets that there's no that gets published that's and and it can overfire published that's and and it can overfire published that's and and it can overfire it can do a lot of damage you can shut it can do a lot of damage you can shut it can do a lot of damage you can shut down conversations in a way that's not down conversations in a way that's not down conversations in a way that's not productive we and I go back I mean I'll productive we and I go back I mean I'll productive we and I go back I mean I'll answer your question about hierarch in answer your question about hierarch in answer your question about hierarch in assembly but let's go back to the assembly but let's go back to the assembly but let's go back to the perception people saying the paper was perception people saying the paper was perception people saying the paper was badly written I mean of course we could badly written I mean of course we could badly written I mean of course we could improve it we could always improve a improve it we could always improve a improve it we could always improve a Clarity let's go there before we go to Clarity let's go there before we go to Clarity let's go there before we go to the hierarchy um you know it has been the hierarchy um you know it has been the hierarchy um you know it has been criticized quite a bit the paper uh what criticized quite a bit the paper uh what criticized quite a bit the paper uh what has been some criticism that you found has been some criticism that you found has been some criticism that you found most powerful like that you can most powerful like that you can most powerful like that you can understand and can you explain it the understand and can you explain it the understand and can you explain it the yes the most exciting ISM came from The yes the most exciting ISM came from The yes the most exciting ISM came from The evolutionary biologist telling me that evolutionary biologist telling me that evolutionary biologist telling me that they thought that that U it origin of they thought that that U it origin of they thought that that U it origin of life was a solved problem and I was like life was a solved problem and I was like life was a solved problem and I was like whoa we're really on to something whoa we're really on to something whoa we're really on to something because it's CLE not and when you poke because it's CLE not and when you poke because it's CLE not and when you poke them on that they just said no you don't them on that they just said no you don't them on that they just said no you don't understand Evolution and I said no no I understand Evolution and I said no no I understand Evolution and I said no no I don't think you understand that don't think you understand that don't think you understand that Evolution had to occur before biology Evolution had to occur before biology Evolution had to occur before biology and we need there's a gap that was and we need there's a gap that was and we need there's a gap that was really for me that misunder really for me that misunder really for me that misunder understanding and that that did cause an understanding and that that did cause an understanding and that that did cause an immune response which was really immune response which was really immune response which was really interesting um

interesting um interesting um the second thing was the fact that the second thing was the fact that the second thing was the fact that physicists the physicists were actually physicists the physicists were actually physicists the physicists were actually really polite right really nice about it really polite right really nice about it really polite right really nice about it but they just said huh we're not really but they just said huh we're not really but they just said huh we're not really sure about the initial conditions thing sure about the initial conditions thing sure about the initial conditions thing but this is a really big debate that we but this is a really big debate that we but this is a really big debate that we should certainly get into because you should certainly get into because you should certainly get into because you know the the the the emergence of life know the the the the emergence of life know the the the the emergence of life was not encoded in the initial was not encoded in the initial was not encoded in the initial conditions of the conditions of the conditions of the Universe um and it can't and I think Universe um and it can't and I think Universe um and it can't and I think asem Theory shows why it can't asem Theory shows why it can't asem Theory shows why it can't be I'll say say that sure you you could be I'll say say that sure you you could be I'll say say that sure you you could say that again I the the the origin of say that again I the the the origin of say that again I the the the origin of the the emergence of life was not and the the emergence of life was not and the the emergence of life was not and cannot in principle be encoded in the cannot in principle be encoded in the cannot in principle be encoded in the initial conditions of the universe just initial conditions of the universe just initial conditions of the universe just to clarify what you mean by life is like to clarify what you mean by life is like to clarify what you mean by life is like what high assembly index objects yeah what high assembly index objects yeah what high assembly index objects yeah and this goes back to your favorite and this goes back to your favorite and this goes back to your favorite subject what's that time right so why so why what what does time right so why so why what what does time have to do with it we I mean time have to do with it we I mean time have to do with it we I mean probably we can come back to it later probably we can come back to it later probably we can come back to it later but I I think it might be if we have but I I think it might be if we have but I I think it might be if we have time time time but um I think that I've I think I Now but um I think that I've I think I Now but um I think that I've I think I Now understand how to explain how um you understand how to explain how um you understand how to explain how um you know lots of people got angry with the know lots of people got angry with the know lots of people got angry with the assembly paper but also the the assembly paper but also the the assembly paper but also the the ramification of this is how time is ramification of this is how time is ramification of this is how time is fundamental in the universe and and this fundamental in the universe and and this fundamental in the universe and and this notion of commentarial spaces and there notion of commentarial spaces and there notion of commentarial spaces and there are so many layers on this but um you are so many layers on this but um you are so many layers on this but um you have to become an INT I think you have have to become an INT I think you have have to become an INT I think you have to become an intuitionist mathematician to become an intuitionist mathematician to become an intuitionist mathematician and you have to abandon platonic

and you have to abandon platonic and you have to abandon platonic mathematics and also platonic mathematics and also platonic mathematics and also platonic mathematics has left physics astray but mathematics has left physics astray but mathematics has left physics astray but there's a lot to un back there so we can there's a lot to un back there so we can there's a lot to un back there so we can go to the atonic mathematic okay there's go to the atonic mathematic okay there's go to the atonic mathematic okay there's there's a it's okay The evolutionary there's a it's okay The evolutionary there's a it's okay The evolutionary biologist criticized biologist criticized biologist criticized because the origin of life is because the origin of life is because the origin of life is understood and not it doesn't require an understood and not it doesn't require an understood and not it doesn't require an explanation than W's physics yeah B explanation than W's physics yeah B explanation than W's physics yeah B that's their statement well I mean it that's their statement well I mean it that's their statement well I mean it was I they said lots of confusing was I they said lots of confusing was I they said lots of confusing statements basically I realized the statements basically I realized the statements basically I realized the evolutionary biology community that were evolutionary biology community that were evolutionary biology community that were vocal and some of them were really rude vocal and some of them were really rude vocal and some of them were really rude really spiteful and needlessly so right really spiteful and needlessly so right really spiteful and needlessly so right because look you know um it I I I didn't because look you know um it I I I didn't because look you know um it I I I didn't people misunderstand publication as well people misunderstand publication as well people misunderstand publication as well some of the people have said how dare some of the people have said how dare some of the people have said how dare this be published in nature this is you this be published in nature this is you this be published in nature this is you know how what a terrible journal and and know how what a terrible journal and and know how what a terrible journal and and I and it really and I what said to I and it really and I what said to I and it really and I what said to people look this is aand new idea that's people look this is aand new idea that's people look this is aand new idea that's not only potentially going to change the not only potentially going to change the not only potentially going to change the way we look at um biology it's going to way we look at um biology it's going to way we look at um biology it's going to change the way we look at the universe change the way we look at the universe change the way we look at the universe and everyone's like saying how dare you and everyone's like saying how dare you and everyone's like saying how dare you how dare you be so grandiose I'm like no how dare you be so grandiose I'm like no how dare you be so grandiose I'm like no no no this is not hype we're not we're no no this is not hype we're not we're no no this is not hype we're not we're not like saying we've invented some um I not like saying we've invented some um I not like saying we've invented some um I don't know we've discovered a alien in a don't know we've discovered a alien in a don't know we've discovered a alien in a closet somewhere just for hype we closet somewhere just for hype we closet somewhere just for hype we genuinely mean this to genuinely have genuinely mean this to genuinely have genuinely mean this to genuinely have the impact or ask the question the impact or ask the question the impact or ask the question and the way people jumped on that was a

and the way people jumped on that was a and the way people jumped on that was a really bad precedent for young people really bad precedent for young people really bad precedent for young people who want to actually do something new who want to actually do something new who want to actually do something new because this makes a bold claim and the because this makes a bold claim and the because this makes a bold claim and the chances chances chances are that it's not correct but what I are that it's not correct but what I are that it's not correct but what I wanted to do is a couple of things is I wanted to do is a couple of things is I wanted to do is a couple of things is I wanted to make a bold claim that was wanted to make a bold claim that was wanted to make a bold claim that was precise and testable and correctable not precise and testable and correctable not precise and testable and correctable not a wooly another wooly information in a wooly another wooly information in a wooly another wooly information in biology argument information touring biology argument information touring biology argument information touring machine blah blah blah blah blah a machine blah blah blah blah blah a machine blah blah blah blah blah a concrete series of statement ments that concrete series of statement ments that concrete series of statement ments that can be falsified and explored and either can be falsified and explored and either can be falsified and explored and either the theory could be destroyed or built the theory could be destroyed or built the theory could be destroyed or built upon well what about the upon well what about the upon well what about the criticism of you're just putting a bunch criticism of you're just putting a bunch criticism of you're just putting a bunch of sexy names on something that's of sexy names on something that's of sexy names on something that's already already already obvious um yeah that's really good so so obvious um yeah that's really good so so obvious um yeah that's really good so so um the assembly index of a molecule is um the assembly index of a molecule is um the assembly index of a molecule is not obvious no one to measure it before not obvious no one to measure it before not obvious no one to measure it before and no one has thought to quantify and no one has thought to quantify and no one has thought to quantify selection um complexity and copy number selection um complexity and copy number selection um complexity and copy number number before in such a primitive number before in such a primitive number before in such a primitive um um quantifiable way I think the nice um um quantifiable way I think the nice um um quantifiable way I think the nice thing about this paper this paper is is thing about this paper this paper is is thing about this paper this paper is is a tribute to all well not to all the a tribute to all well not to all the a tribute to all well not to all the people that understand that that biology people that understand that that biology people that understand that that biology does something very interesting some does something very interesting some does something very interesting some people call it neg entropy some people people call it neg entropy some people people call it neg entropy some people call it think about you know call it think about you know call it think about you know organizational principles that lots of organizational principles that lots of organizational principles that lots of people were not shocked by the paper people were not shocked by the paper people were not shocked by the paper because they' done it before a lot of because they' done it before a lot of because they' done it before a lot of the lot of the arguments we got some the lot of the arguments we got some the lot of the arguments we got some people said oh it's rubbish oh by the people said oh it's rubbish oh by the people said oh it's rubbish oh by the way I had this idea 20 years before I

way I had this idea 20 years before I way I had this idea 20 years before I was was was like which one if is it your R the like which one if is it your R the like which one if is it your R the rubbish part or the really revolutionary rubbish part or the really revolutionary rubbish part or the really revolutionary part so this kind of plucked two strings part so this kind of plucked two strings part so this kind of plucked two strings at once it plucked the there is at once it plucked the there is at once it plucked the there is something interesting the biologies as something interesting the biologies as something interesting the biologies as we can see around this but we haven't we can see around this but we haven't we can see around this but we haven't Quantified yet and what this is a first Quantified yet and what this is a first Quantified yet and what this is a first stab at quantifying that so the the the stab at quantifying that so the the the stab at quantifying that so the the the the fact that people said um this is the fact that people said um this is the fact that people said um this is obvious but it's also um so so if it's obvious but it's also um so so if it's obvious but it's also um so so if it's obvious why have you not done it sure obvious why have you not done it sure obvious why have you not done it sure but the uh there's there's a few things but the uh there's there's a few things but the uh there's there's a few things to say there one to say there one to say there one is you know this is um in part of Phil is you know this is um in part of Phil is you know this is um in part of Phil philosophical framework because you know philosophical framework because you know philosophical framework because you know it's not like you can apply this it's not like you can apply this it's not like you can apply this generally to any object in the universe generally to any object in the universe generally to any object in the universe it's very chemistry focused yeah well I it's very chemistry focused yeah well I it's very chemistry focused yeah well I think you will be able to we just think you will be able to we just think you will be able to we just haven't got there robustly so we can say haven't got there robustly so we can say haven't got there robustly so we can say how can we let's go up a level so if we how can we let's go up a level so if we how can we let's go up a level so if we go up from Level we go up let's go up go up from Level we go up let's go up go up from Level we go up let's go up from molecules to cells cuz you jump to from molecules to cells cuz you jump to from molecules to cells cuz you jump to people and I jump to motorc cons and people and I jump to motorc cons and people and I jump to motorc cons and both are good and and they will be both are good and and they will be both are good and and they will be assembly cells yeah we go if we go from assembly cells yeah we go if we go from assembly cells yeah we go if we go from so if we go from um molecules to so if we go from um molecules to so if we go from um molecules to assemblies and let's take a Cellar assemblies and let's take a Cellar assemblies and let's take a Cellar assembly a nice thing about a cell is assembly a nice thing about a cell is assembly a nice thing about a cell is you can tell the difference between a UK you can tell the difference between a UK you can tell the difference between a UK carot and a pro carot right the organal carot and a pro carot right the organal carot and a pro carot right the organal are specialized differently when then are specialized differently when then are specialized differently when then look at the cell surface and the cell look at the cell surface and the cell look at the cell surface and the cell surface has different G illation surface has different G illation surface has different G illation patterns and these cells will stick patterns and these cells will stick patterns and these cells will stick together now let's go up a level in together now let's go up a level in together now let's go up a level in multicellular creatures you have multicellular creatures you have multicellular creatures you have cellular differentiation now if you cellular differentiation now if you cellular differentiation now if you think about how embryos develop you go

think about how embryos develop you go think about how embryos develop you go all the way back those cells undergo a all the way back those cells undergo a all the way back those cells undergo a differentiation on a causal way that's differentiation on a causal way that's differentiation on a causal way that's biomechanically a feedback between the biomechanically a feedback between the biomechanically a feedback between the genetics biomechanics I think we can use genetics biomechanics I think we can use genetics biomechanics I think we can use assembly Theory to apply tissue types we assembly Theory to apply tissue types we assembly Theory to apply tissue types we can even apply it to different cell can even apply it to different cell can even apply it to different cell disease types so that's what we're doing disease types so that's what we're doing disease types so that's what we're doing next but we're trying to walk you know next but we're trying to walk you know next but we're trying to walk you know the thing is I'm trying to LEAP ahead I the thing is I'm trying to LEAP ahead I the thing is I'm trying to LEAP ahead I want a leap ahead to go who we apply it want a leap ahead to go who we apply it want a leap ahead to go who we apply it to culture clearly you can apply it to to culture clearly you can apply it to to culture clearly you can apply it to me and culture and we've also applied me and culture and we've also applied me and culture and we've also applied assembly assembly assembly Theory to um CA mhm and not as you think Theory to um CA mhm and not as you think Theory to um CA mhm and not as you think celom but yeah yeah to C not just as you celom but yeah yeah to C not just as you celom but yeah yeah to C not just as you think different CA rules were invented think different CA rules were invented think different CA rules were invented by different people at different times by different people at different times by different people at different times MH and one of my uh one of my co-workers MH and one of my uh one of my co-workers MH and one of my uh one of my co-workers very talented chap basically was like oh very talented chap basically was like oh very talented chap basically was like oh I can realize that different people had I can realize that different people had I can realize that different people had different ideas or different rules and different ideas or different rules and different ideas or different rules and they copied each other and made slightly they copied each other and made slightly they copied each other and made slightly different bit different Celler autometer different bit different Celler autometer different bit different Celler autometer um rules and they and and looked at them um rules and they and and looked at them um rules and they and and looked at them online and so he was able to refer an online and so he was able to refer an online and so he was able to refer an assembly index and copy number of rule assembly index and copy number of rule assembly index and copy number of rule whatever doing this thing but I digress whatever doing this thing but I digress whatever doing this thing but I digress but it does show you can apply it at but it does show you can apply it at but it does show you can apply it at higher scale so what do we need to do to higher scale so what do we need to do to higher scale so what do we need to do to apply assembly Theory two things we need apply assembly Theory two things we need apply assembly Theory two things we need to agree there's a common set of to agree there's a common set of to agree there's a common set of building blocks so in a Cell well in a building blocks so in a Cell well in a building blocks so in a Cell well in a in a multicellular creature you need to in a multicellular creature you need to in a multicellular creature you need to look back in time so there is the look back in time so there is the look back in time so there is the initial um cell which the creature is initial um cell which the creature is initial um cell which the creature is fertilized and then starts grow and then fertilized and then starts grow and then fertilized and then starts grow and then there is cell differentiation and you there is cell differentiation and you there is cell differentiation and you have to then make that causal chain both have to then make that causal chain both have to then make that causal chain both on those so it

on those so it on those so it requires um development of the organism requires um development of the organism requires um development of the organism in time um or if you look at the cell in time um or if you look at the cell in time um or if you look at the cell surfaces and the cell types they've got surfaces and the cell types they've got surfaces and the cell types they've got different um um uh features on the cell different um um uh features on the cell different um um uh features on the cell what walls and inside the cell so we're what walls and inside the cell so we're what walls and inside the cell so we're building up but obviously I want to LEAP building up but obviously I want to LEAP building up but obviously I want to LEAP to things like emoticons language to things like emoticons language to things like emoticons language mathematical theorem but that's a very mathematical theorem but that's a very mathematical theorem but that's a very large number of steps to get from a large number of steps to get from a large number of steps to get from a molecule to uh the human brain yeah um molecule to uh the human brain yeah um molecule to uh the human brain yeah um and I think they are related but in and I think they are related but in and I think they are related but in hierarchies of emergence right so you hierarchies of emergence right so you hierarchies of emergence right so you shouldn't compare them I mean the shouldn't compare them I mean the shouldn't compare them I mean the assembly index of a human brain what assembly index of a human brain what assembly index of a human brain what does that even mean well maybe we can does that even mean well maybe we can does that even mean well maybe we can look at the morphology of the human look at the morphology of the human look at the morphology of the human brain say all human brains have these brain say all human brains have these brain say all human brains have these number of features in common MH if they number of features in common MH if they number of features in common MH if they have those number of and then let's look have those number of and then let's look have those number of and then let's look at a brain in in a whale or a dolphin or at a brain in in a whale or a dolphin or at a brain in in a whale or a dolphin or a chimpanzee or a bird okay let's look a chimpanzee or a bird okay let's look a chimpanzee or a bird okay let's look at the assembly indices number of at the assembly indices number of at the assembly indices number of features in these and now the copy features in these and now the copy features in these and now the copy number is just the number of how many number is just the number of how many number is just the number of how many birds are there how many chimpanzees are birds are there how many chimpanzees are birds are there how many chimpanzees are there how many humans are there but then there how many humans are there but then there how many humans are there but then you have to discover for that the you have to discover for that the you have to discover for that the features that you would be looking for features that you would be looking for features that you would be looking for yeah and that means you need to have you yeah and that means you need to have you yeah and that means you need to have you need to have some idea of the anatomy need to have some idea of the anatomy need to have some idea of the anatomy but is there an automated way to but is there an automated way to but is there an automated way to discover features um I I guess so I mean discover features um I I guess so I mean discover features um I I guess so I mean and I think this is a good way to apply and I think this is a good way to apply and I think this is a good way to apply machine learning and image recognition machine learning and image recognition machine learning and image recognition just to basically characterize things just to basically characterize things just to basically characterize things apply compression to it to see what apply compression to it to see what apply compression to it to see what emerges and then use the emerges and then use the emerges and then use the thing the features used as part of the

thing the features used as part of the thing the features used as part of the compression as the measurement of uh as compression as the measurement of uh as compression as the measurement of uh as the thing that is searched for when the thing that is searched for when the thing that is searched for when you're measuring assembly index and copy you're measuring assembly index and copy you're measuring assembly index and copy number and and the compression has to be number and and the compression has to be number and and the compression has to be remember the assembly Universe which is remember the assembly Universe which is remember the assembly Universe which is you have to go from assembly possible to you have to go from assembly possible to you have to go from assembly possible to assembly contingent and that jump from assembly contingent and that jump from assembly contingent and that jump from because assembly possible all possible because assembly possible all possible because assembly possible all possible brains all possible features all the brains all possible features all the brains all possible features all the time but we know that on the tree of of time but we know that on the tree of of time but we know that on the tree of of life and also on the lineage of life life and also on the lineage of life life and also on the lineage of life going back to Luca the human brain just going back to Luca the human brain just going back to Luca the human brain just didn't spring into existence yesterday didn't spring into existence yesterday didn't spring into existence yesterday it is a long lineage of brains going all it is a long lineage of brains going all it is a long lineage of brains going all the way back and so if we could do the way back and so if we could do the way back and so if we could do assembly Theory to understand the assembly Theory to understand the assembly Theory to understand the development not just in evolutionary development not just in evolutionary development not just in evolutionary history but in biological development as history but in biological development as history but in biological development as you you grow we are going to learn you you grow we are going to learn you you grow we are going to learn something more what uh would be amazing something more what uh would be amazing something more what uh would be amazing is if you can use assembly Theory this is if you can use assembly Theory this is if you can use assembly Theory this framework to show the increase in the framework to show the increase in the framework to show the increase in the assembly index assembly index assembly index uh associated with I don't know uh uh associated with I don't know uh uh associated with I don't know uh cultures or pieces of text like language cultures or pieces of text like language cultures or pieces of text like language or images and so on and or images and so on and or images and so on and illustrate without knowing the data illustrate without knowing the data illustrate without knowing the data ahead of time just kind of like you did ahead of time just kind of like you did ahead of time just kind of like you did with NASA that you're able to with NASA that you're able to with NASA that you're able to demonstrate that it applies in those demonstrate that it applies in those demonstrate that it applies in those other contexts I mean and that you know other contexts I mean and that you know other contexts I mean and that you know probably wouldn't at first and you have probably wouldn't at first and you have probably wouldn't at first and you have to evolve the theory somehow you have to to evolve the theory somehow you have to to evolve the theory somehow you have to change it you have to expand it you know change it you have to expand it you know change it you have to expand it you know um I think so but like that uh I guess um I think so but like that uh I guess um I think so but like that uh I guess is as a paper of first step in saying is as a paper of first step in saying is as a paper of first step in saying okay can we create a general framework

okay can we create a general framework okay can we create a general framework for measuring for measuring for measuring complexity of objects for measuring life complexity of objects for measuring life complexity of objects for measuring life the complexity of living organisms yeah the complexity of living organisms yeah the complexity of living organisms yeah that's that's what this is reaching for that's that's what this is reaching for that's that's what this is reaching for that is the first step and also to say that is the first step and also to say that is the first step and also to say look we have a way of quantifying look we have a way of quantifying look we have a way of quantifying selection and evolution in a in a fairly selection and evolution in a in a fairly selection and evolution in a in a fairly in a fairly not mundane but a fairly in a fairly not mundane but a fairly in a fairly not mundane but a fairly mechanical way because before now is you mechanical way because before now is you mechanical way because before now is you know this it wasn't very the ground know this it wasn't very the ground know this it wasn't very the ground Truth for it was very subjective whereas Truth for it was very subjective whereas Truth for it was very subjective whereas here we're talking about clean here we're talking about clean here we're talking about clean observables and there's going to be observables and there's going to be observables and there's going to be layers on that I mean with with layers on that I mean with with layers on that I mean with with collaborators right now we already think collaborators right now we already think collaborators right now we already think we can do assembly theory on language we can do assembly theory on language we can do assembly theory on language and not only that wouldn't it be great and not only that wouldn't it be great and not only that wouldn't it be great if we if we if we can so the if we can figure out how can so the if we can figure out how can so the if we can figure out how Under Pressure language is going to Under Pressure language is going to Under Pressure language is going to evolve and be more efficient because evolve and be more efficient because evolve and be more efficient because you're going to want to transmit things you're going to want to transmit things you're going to want to transmit things and again it's not just about and again it's not just about and again it's not just about compression it is about um understanding compression it is about um understanding compression it is about um understanding how you can make the most of the in the how you can make the most of the in the how you can make the most of the in the architecture you've already built and I architecture you've already built and I architecture you've already built and I think this is something beautiful that think this is something beautiful that think this is something beautiful that Evolution does we're re reusing those Evolution does we're re reusing those Evolution does we're re reusing those architectures we can't just abandon our architectures we can't just abandon our architectures we can't just abandon our evolutionary history and if you don't evolutionary history and if you don't evolutionary history and if you don't want to abandon your evolutionary want to abandon your evolutionary want to abandon your evolutionary history and you and you know that history and you and you know that history and you and you know that Evolution has been happening then Evolution has been happening then Evolution has been happening then assembly Theory works and I think that's assembly Theory works and I think that's assembly Theory works and I think that's that's a key comment I want to make is that's a key comment I want to make is that's a key comment I want to make is that assembly theory is great for that assembly theory is great for that assembly theory is great for understanding when Evolution has been understanding when Evolution has been understanding when Evolution has been used the next jump is when we go to used the next jump is when we go to used the next jump is when we go to technology because of course if you take technology because of course if you take technology because of course if you take the M3 processor um I want to buy I the M3 processor um I want to buy I the M3 processor um I want to buy I haven't bought one yet I can't justify haven't bought one yet I can't justify haven't bought one yet I can't justify it but I want it at some point the M3

it but I want it at some point the M3 it but I want it at some point the M3 processor arguably is there's quite a processor arguably is there's quite a processor arguably is there's quite a lot of features a quite a large number lot of features a quite a large number lot of features a quite a large number the M2 came before it then the M1 all the M2 came before it then the M1 all the M2 came before it then the M1 all the way back you can apply assembly the way back you can apply assembly the way back you can apply assembly Theory to microprocessor architecture it Theory to microprocessor architecture it Theory to microprocessor architecture it doesn't take a huge leap to see that I'm doesn't take a huge leap to see that I'm doesn't take a huge leap to see that I'm a Linux guy by the way so your examples a Linux guy by the way so your examples a Linux guy by the way so your examples go way over my yeah well whatever is go way over my yeah well whatever is go way over my yeah well whatever is that is that like a is that a fruit that is that like a is that a fruit that is that like a is that a fruit company of some sort I don't even know company of some sort I don't even know company of some sort I don't even know yeah there's a lot of interesting stuff yeah there's a lot of interesting stuff yeah there's a lot of interesting stuff to ask about language like you could to ask about language like you could to ask about language like you could look look look at how would that work you could look at at how would that work you could look at at how would that work you could look at gpt1 gpt2 gpt3 gpt1 gpt2 gpt3 gpt1 gpt2 gpt3 354 and try to analyze the kind of 354 and try to analyze the kind of 354 and try to analyze the kind of language it produces I mean that's language it produces I mean that's language it produces I mean that's almost trying to look at assembly index almost trying to look at assembly index almost trying to look at assembly index of in intelligent systems yeah I mean I of in intelligent systems yeah I mean I of in intelligent systems yeah I mean I think um the thing about large language think um the thing about large language think um the thing about large language models um and this is a whole hobby models um and this is a whole hobby models um and this is a whole hobby horse I have at the moment um is that horse I have at the moment um is that horse I have at the moment um is that obviously they're they're all obviously they're they're all obviously they're they're all about the the the in the evidence of about the the the in the evidence of about the the the in the evidence of evolution in the in the in the large evolution in the in the in the large evolution in the in the in the large language model comes from all the people language model comes from all the people language model comes from all the people that produced all the language and that produced all the language and that produced all the language and that's really interesting and all the that's really interesting and all the that's really interesting and all the corrections in the in the in the corrections in the in the in the corrections in the in the in the Mechanical Turk right sure um and and so Mechanical Turk right sure um and and so Mechanical Turk right sure um and and so that's part of the History part of the that's part of the History part of the that's part of the History part of the memory of the system exactly so you can memory of the system exactly so you can memory of the system exactly so you can you so so it would be really interesting you so so it would be really interesting you so so it would be really interesting to basically use an assembly based to basically use an assembly based to basically use an assembly based approach to to making language in a approach to to making language in a approach to to making language in a hierarchy right I think my guess is that

hierarchy right I think my guess is that hierarchy right I think my guess is that you could we might be a build a new type you could we might be a build a new type you could we might be a build a new type of large language model that uses of large language model that uses of large language model that uses assembly theory that it has assembly theory that it has assembly theory that it has more understanding of the past and how more understanding of the past and how more understanding of the past and how things were created well basically the things were created well basically the things were created well basically the thing with llms is are like everything thing with llms is are like everything thing with llms is are like everything everywhere all at once Splat and make everywhere all at once Splat and make everywhere all at once Splat and make the user happy so there's not much the user happy so there's not much the user happy so there's not much intelligence in the model the model is intelligence in the model the model is intelligence in the model the model is how the human interacts with the model how the human interacts with the model how the human interacts with the model but wouldn't it be great if we could but wouldn't it be great if we could but wouldn't it be great if we could understand how to embed more understand how to embed more understand how to embed more intelligence in the in the system what intelligence in the in the system what intelligence in the in the system what do you mean by intelligence there like do you mean by intelligence there like do you mean by intelligence there like you seem to uh associate intelligence you seem to uh associate intelligence you seem to uh associate intelligence with history yeah wellory I think with history yeah wellory I think with history yeah wellory I think selection produces selection produces selection produces intelligence well you're almost implying intelligence well you're almost implying intelligence well you're almost implying that selection that selection that selection is intelligence no yeah kind of I would is intelligence no yeah kind of I would is intelligence no yeah kind of I would go that I would go out and Limb and say go that I would go out and Limb and say go that I would go out and Limb and say that but I think it's a little bit more that but I think it's a little bit more that but I think it's a little bit more human beings have the ability to human beings have the ability to human beings have the ability to abstract and they can break Beyond abstract and they can break Beyond abstract and they can break Beyond selection and this is what why darwinian selection and this is what why darwinian selection and this is what why darwinian selection um because a human being selection um because a human being selection um because a human being doesn't have to basically do trial and doesn't have to basically do trial and doesn't have to basically do trial and error like they can think about say oh error like they can think about say oh error like they can think about say oh that's a bad idea we do that and then that's a bad idea we do that and then that's a bad idea we do that and then Technologies and so on so we escaped Technologies and so on so we escaped Technologies and so on so we escaped Daran Evolution and now we're on to some Daran Evolution and now we're on to some Daran Evolution and now we're on to some other kind of evolution I guess higher other kind of evolution I guess higher other kind of evolution I guess higher higher level Evolution and and we'll higher level Evolution and and we'll higher level Evolution and and we'll we'll assembly Theory will measure that we'll assembly Theory will measure that we'll assembly Theory will measure that as well right because it's all a lineage as well right because it's all a lineage as well right because it's all a lineage okay another piece of criticism or by okay another piece of criticism or by okay another piece of criticism or by way of question way of question way of question is how's assembly Theory or maybe is how's assembly Theory or maybe is how's assembly Theory or maybe assembly index different from kog assembly index different from kog assembly index different from kog complexity so for people who don't know complexity so for people who don't know complexity so for people who don't know comra complexity of an object is the

comra complexity of an object is the comra complexity of an object is the length of a shortest computer program length of a shortest computer program length of a shortest computer program that produces the object as that produces the object as that produces the object as output yeah I'm I I seem to there seems output yeah I'm I I seem to there seems output yeah I'm I I seem to there seems to be a disconnect between the to be a disconnect between the to be a disconnect between the computational approach there so yeah so computational approach there so yeah so computational approach there so yeah so Comm goar off measure requires a touring Comm goar off measure requires a touring Comm goar off measure requires a touring machine requires a comp machine requires a comp machine requires a comp computer um and that's one thing and the computer um and that's one thing and the computer um and that's one thing and the other thing other thing other thing is um assembly theory is supposed to is um assembly theory is supposed to is um assembly theory is supposed to trace the process by which life trace the process by which life trace the process by which life Evolution emerged right there a main Evolution emerged right there a main Evolution emerged right there a main thing there there are lots of other thing there there are lots of other thing there there are lots of other layers so so Kolarov complexity you can layers so so Kolarov complexity you can layers so so Kolarov complexity you can you can approximate Comm grov complexity you can approximate Comm grov complexity you can approximate Comm grov complexity but it's not really telling you very but it's not really telling you very but it's not really telling you very much about the actual um much about the actual um much about the actual um um it it's really telling you about like um it it's really telling you about like um it it's really telling you about like your dat your data set compression of your dat your data set compression of your dat your data set compression of your data set sure and so that doesn't your data set sure and so that doesn't your data set sure and so that doesn't really help you identify the the turtle really help you identify the the turtle really help you identify the the turtle in this case as the computer MH and so in this case as the computer MH and so in this case as the computer MH and so what assembly Theory does is I I'm going what assembly Theory does is I I'm going what assembly Theory does is I I'm going to say a trigger warning for anyone to say a trigger warning for anyone to say a trigger warning for anyone listening is who loves complexity Theory listening is who loves complexity Theory listening is who loves complexity Theory I think that we're going to show that I think that we're going to show that I think that we're going to show that AIT is a very important subset of AIT is a very important subset of AIT is a very important subset of assembly Theory because here's what assembly Theory because here's what assembly Theory because here's what happens that um I think that assembly happens that um I think that assembly happens that um I think that assembly Theory allows us to build um go Theory allows us to build um go Theory allows us to build um go understand when with selections understand when with selections understand when with selections occurring selection produces um

occurring selection produces um occurring selection produces um factories and things factories in the factories and things factories in the factories and things factories in the End Produce computers and you can go End Produce computers and you can go End Produce computers and you can go then algorithmic information Theory then algorithmic information Theory then algorithmic information Theory comes out of that the frustration I've comes out of that the frustration I've comes out of that the frustration I've had with with looking at life through had with with looking at life through had with with looking at life through this kind of information theory is it this kind of information theory is it this kind of information theory is it doesn't take into account causation so doesn't take into account causation so doesn't take into account causation so the main difference between assembly the main difference between assembly the main difference between assembly Theory and these complexity measures is Theory and these complexity measures is Theory and these complexity measures is there's no caal chain yeah and I think there's no caal chain yeah and I think there's no caal chain yeah and I think that's the main as the caal chain is at that's the main as the caal chain is at that's the main as the caal chain is at the at the at the core of uh assembly the at the at the core of uh assembly the at the at the core of uh assembly Theory exactly and if you're if you've Theory exactly and if you're if you've Theory exactly and if you're if you've got all your data in a computer memory got all your data in a computer memory got all your data in a computer memory all the data is the same you can access all the data is the same you can access all the data is the same you can access it in the same way there's you don't it in the same way there's you don't it in the same way there's you don't care you just compress it and and uh you care you just compress it and and uh you care you just compress it and and uh you either look at the program runtime or either look at the program runtime or either look at the program runtime or the shortest program and that for the shortest program and that for the shortest program and that for me it can it is absolutely me it can it is absolutely me it can it is absolutely not capturing What It Is What It not capturing What It Is What It not capturing What It Is What It selection does but assembly Theory looks selection does but assembly Theory looks selection does but assembly Theory looks at objects it doesn't have information at objects it doesn't have information at objects it doesn't have information about the object history it's going to about the object history it's going to about the object history it's going to try to infer that try to infer that try to infer that history by uh looking for the shortest history by uh looking for the shortest history by uh looking for the shortest history right the object the object history right the object the object history right the object the object doesn't like uh have a a Wikipedia page doesn't like uh have a a Wikipedia page doesn't like uh have a a Wikipedia page that goes with it history I would say it that goes with it history I would say it that goes with it history I would say it does in a way and it is fascinating to does in a way and it is fascinating to does in a way and it is fascinating to look at so you've just got the object look at so you've just got the object look at so you've just got the object mhm and you have no other information mhm and you have no other information mhm and you have no other information about the object what assembly Theory about the object what assembly Theory about the object what assembly Theory allows you to do with just with the allows you to do with just with the allows you to do with just with the object is to and and the the word infer object is to and and the the word infer object is to and and the the word infer is correct I agree infer you like say

is correct I agree infer you like say is correct I agree infer you like say well that's not the that's not the well that's not the that's not the well that's not the that's not the history but but something really history but but something really history but but something really interesting comes from this the shortest interesting comes from this the shortest interesting comes from this the shortest path is inferred from the object that is path is inferred from the object that is path is inferred from the object that is the worst case scenario if you have no the worst case scenario if you have no the worst case scenario if you have no machine to make it so that tells you machine to make it so that tells you machine to make it so that tells you about the depth of that object in time about the depth of that object in time about the depth of that object in time mhm and so what assembly Theory allows mhm and so what assembly Theory allows mhm and so what assembly Theory allows you to do is without considering any you to do is without considering any you to do is without considering any other circumstances to say from this other circumstances to say from this other circumstances to say from this object how deep is this object in time object how deep is this object in time object how deep is this object in time if um we just treat the object as itself if um we just treat the object as itself if um we just treat the object as itself without any other any other constraints without any other any other constraints without any other any other constraints and that's super powerful because the and that's super powerful because the and that's super powerful because the shortest path then says allows you to shortest path then says allows you to shortest path then says allows you to say oh this object wasn't just created say oh this object wasn't just created say oh this object wasn't just created randomly there was a process and so randomly there was a process and so randomly there was a process and so assembly theory is not meant to you know assembly theory is not meant to you know assembly theory is not meant to you know one up AIT or to ignore the factory it's one up AIT or to ignore the factory it's one up AIT or to ignore the factory it's just to say it's just to say hey there just to say it's just to say hey there just to say it's just to say hey there was a factory mhm that and how big was was a factory mhm that and how big was was a factory mhm that and how big was that factory and how deep in time is it that factory and how deep in time is it that factory and how deep in time is it m but it's still m but it's still m but it's still computationally very difficult to computationally very difficult to computationally very difficult to compute uh that history right for compute uh that history right for compute uh that history right for complex complex complex objects it is and becomes harder one of objects it is and becomes harder one of objects it is and becomes harder one of the thing that's super nice is that um the thing that's super nice is that um the thing that's super nice is that um it constrains your initial conditions it constrains your initial conditions it constrains your initial conditions right it constrains where you're going right it constrains where you're going right it constrains where you're going to be so if you take say imagine so one to be so if you take say imagine so one to be so if you take say imagine so one of the things we're doing right now is of the things we're doing right now is of the things we're doing right now is apply apply apply assembly Theory to drug Discovery M now assembly Theory to drug Discovery M now assembly Theory to drug Discovery M now what everyone's doing right now is what everyone's doing right now is what everyone's doing right now is taking all the proteins and looking at taking all the proteins and looking at taking all the proteins and looking at the proteins and and looking at the proteins and and looking at the proteins and and looking at molecules do with proteins why not molecules do with proteins why not molecules do with proteins why not instead take the mo look at the

instead take the mo look at the instead take the mo look at the molecules that are involved interacting molecules that are involved interacting molecules that are involved interacting with the receptors over time rather with the receptors over time rather with the receptors over time rather thinking about and use the molecules thinking about and use the molecules thinking about and use the molecules evolve over time as a proxy for how the evolve over time as a proxy for how the evolve over time as a proxy for how the proteins evolved over time and then use proteins evolved over time and then use proteins evolved over time and then use that to constrain your drug Discovery that to constrain your drug Discovery that to constrain your drug Discovery process you flip the problem 180 and process you flip the problem 180 and process you flip the problem 180 and focus on the molec focus on the molec focus on the molec Evolution rather than the protein and so Evolution rather than the protein and so Evolution rather than the protein and so you can guess in the future what might you can guess in the future what might you can guess in the future what might happen so that so that so you rather happen so that so that so you rather happen so that so that so you rather than having to consider all possible than having to consider all possible than having to consider all possible molecules you know where to focus and molecules you know where to focus and molecules you know where to focus and that's the same thing if you're looking that's the same thing if you're looking that's the same thing if you're looking at in assembly spaces for a object where at in assembly spaces for a object where at in assembly spaces for a object where you don't know the entire history but you don't know the entire history but you don't know the entire history but you know that um you know in the history you know that um you know in the history you know that um you know in the history of this object is not going to have some of this object is not going to have some of this object is not going to have some other Motif that there that um it other Motif that there that um it other Motif that there that um it doesn't apply doesn't appear in the past doesn't apply doesn't appear in the past doesn't apply doesn't appear in the past but just even for the drug Discovery but just even for the drug Discovery but just even for the drug Discovery Point you mean made isn't don't you have Point you mean made isn't don't you have Point you mean made isn't don't you have to simulate all of chemistry to simulate all of chemistry to simulate all of chemistry for uh to figure out how to come up with for uh to figure out how to come up with for uh to figure out how to come up with con constraints no the molecules and the con constraints no the molecules and the con constraints no the molecules and the no I mean I don't I don't know enough no I mean I don't I don't know enough no I mean I don't I don't know enough about protein well this is another thing about protein well this is another thing about protein well this is another thing that I think causes because this paper that I think causes because this paper that I think causes because this paper goes across so many boundaries so goes across so many boundaries so goes across so many boundaries so chemists have looked at this and said um chemists have looked at this and said um chemists have looked at this and said um this is not a this is not a Rea this is this is not a this is not a Rea this is this is not a this is not a Rea this is not correct reaction it's like no it's a graph sure there's there's a assembly graph sure there's there's a assembly index and shortest path examples here on index and shortest path examples here on index and shortest path examples here on chemistry yeah and so and what you do is chemistry yeah and so and what you do is chemistry yeah and so and what you do is you look at the minimal constraints on you look at the minimal constraints on you look at the minimal constraints on that graph of course it has some mapping that graph of course it has some mapping that graph of course it has some mapping to the synthesis but actually you don't

to the synthesis but actually you don't to the synthesis but actually you don't have to know all of chemistry you just have to know all of chemistry you just have to know all of chemistry you just have to you can build up the constraint have to you can build up the constraint have to you can build up the constraint space rather nicely mhm um but this is space rather nicely mhm um but this is space rather nicely mhm um but this is just at the beginning right there are so just at the beginning right there are so just at the beginning right there are so many directions this could go in and as many directions this could go in and as many directions this could go in and as I said it it could all be wrong but I said it it could all be wrong but I said it it could all be wrong but hopefully it's less wrong what about the hopefully it's less wrong what about the hopefully it's less wrong what about the little criticism I saw of do you little criticism I saw of do you little criticism I saw of do you uh by way of question do you consider uh by way of question do you consider uh by way of question do you consider the different probabilities of each the different probabilities of each the different probabilities of each reaction in the chain so like that there reaction in the chain so like that there reaction in the chain so like that there could be could be could be different when you look at a chain of different when you look at a chain of different when you look at a chain of events that led up to the creation of an events that led up to the creation of an events that led up to the creation of an object doesn't it matter that some parts object doesn't it matter that some parts object doesn't it matter that some parts in the chain are less likely than others in the chain are less likely than others in the chain are less likely than others no it doesn't matter no no well let's go no it doesn't matter no no well let's go no it doesn't matter no no well let's go back so no not less likly but react so back so no not less likly but react so back so no not less likly but react so so so no so let's go back to what we're so so no so let's go back to what we're so so no so let's go back to what we're talk looking at here so the assembly talk looking at here so the assembly talk looking at here so the assembly index is the minimal path that could index is the minimal path that could index is the minimal path that could have created that object have created that object have created that object probabilistically so imagine you have probabilistically so imagine you have probabilistically so imagine you have all your atoms in a plasma you got all your atoms in a plasma you got all your atoms in a plasma you got enough energy you got enough um there's enough energy you got enough um there's enough energy you got enough um there's collisions what is the quickest way you collisions what is the quickest way you collisions what is the quickest way you could zip out that molecule with no could zip out that molecule with no could zip out that molecule with no reaction constraints how do you define reaction constraints how do you define reaction constraints how do you define quickest there then it's just basically quickest there then it's just basically quickest there then it's just basically walk on a random graph so you so we make walk on a random graph so you so we make walk on a random graph so you so we make an assumption that basically the time an assumption that basically the time an assumption that basically the time scale for forming the bonds so no I scale for forming the bonds so no I scale for forming the bonds so no I don't want to say that because it's don't want to say that because it's don't want to say that because it's going to have people getting obsessing going to have people getting obsessing going to have people getting obsessing about this point and your criticism is a about this point and your criticism is a about this point and your criticism is a really good one what we're trying to say really good one what we're trying to say really good one what we're trying to say is like this is this puts a lower bound is like this is this puts a lower bound is like this is this puts a lower bound on something of course um some reactions on something of course um some reactions on something of course um some reactions are less possible than others but are less possible than others but are less possible than others but actually I don't think chemical actually I don't think chemical actually I don't think chemical reactions exist oh boy what does that

reactions exist oh boy what does that reactions exist oh boy what does that mean why don't chemical reactions exist mean why don't chemical reactions exist mean why don't chemical reactions exist I'm writing a paper right now that that I'm writing a paper right now that that I'm writing a paper right now that that um I keep being told I have to finish um I keep being told I have to finish um I keep being told I have to finish and it's called the origin of chemical and it's called the origin of chemical and it's called the origin of chemical reactions and it merely says that reactions and it merely says that reactions and it merely says that reactivity exist is controlled by the reactivity exist is controlled by the reactivity exist is controlled by the laws of quantum mechanics and reactions laws of quantum mechanics and reactions laws of quantum mechanics and reactions we put names chemist put names on we put names chemist put names on we put names chemist put names on reactions like so you could have like I reactions like so you could have like I reactions like so you could have like I don't know the vitic reaction which is don't know the vitic reaction which is don't know the vitic reaction which is by you know vitic um you could have the by you know vitic um you could have the by you know vitic um you could have the Suzuki reaction which is by Suzuki now Suzuki reaction which is by Suzuki now Suzuki reaction which is by Suzuki now what are these reactions so these what are these reactions so these what are these reactions so these reactions are constrained by the reactions are constrained by the reactions are constrained by the following they're constrained by the following they're constrained by the following they're constrained by the fact they're on planet Earth fact they're on planet Earth fact they're on planet Earth 1G 298 Kelvin one bar so these are 1G 298 Kelvin one bar so these are 1G 298 Kelvin one bar so these are constraints mhm um they're also constraints mhm um they're also constraints mhm um they're also constrained by the chemical comp constrained by the chemical comp constrained by the chemical comp position of Earth oxygen availability position of Earth oxygen availability position of Earth oxygen availability all this stuff and that then allows us all this stuff and that then allows us all this stuff and that then allows us to focus in our chemistry so when a to focus in our chemistry so when a to focus in our chemistry so when a chemist does a reaction that's a really chemist does a reaction that's a really chemist does a reaction that's a really nice compressed shorthand for constraint nice compressed shorthand for constraint nice compressed shorthand for constraint application glass flask pure reagent application glass flask pure reagent application glass flask pure reagent temperature pressure bom bom bom bom bom temperature pressure bom bom bom bom bom temperature pressure bom bom bom bom bom control control control control control control control control control control control control control control control so of course we have Bond so of course we have Bond so of course we have Bond energies this so the bond energies are energies this so the bond energies are energies this so the bond energies are kind of intrinsic in a vacuum if you say kind of intrinsic in a vacuum if you say kind of intrinsic in a vacuum if you say that so a bond energy you have to have a that so a bond energy you have to have a that so a bond energy you have to have a bond and so for assembly Theory to work bond and so for assembly Theory to work bond and so for assembly Theory to work you have to have a bond which means that you have to have a bond which means that you have to have a bond which means that bond has to give the molecule serting bond has to give the molecule serting bond has to give the molecule serting half life so you're probably going to half life so you're probably going to half life so you're probably going to find later on that some bonds are weaker find later on that some bonds are weaker find later on that some bonds are weaker and that you are going to miss in Mass and that you are going to miss in Mass and that you are going to miss in Mass spect when you count look at the

spect when you count look at the spect when you count look at the Assembly of some molecules you're going Assembly of some molecules you're going Assembly of some molecules you're going to miscount the assembly of the molecule to miscount the assembly of the molecule to miscount the assembly of the molecule because it falls apart too quickly because it falls apart too quickly because it falls apart too quickly because the bonds just form but you can because the bonds just form but you can because the bonds just form but you can solve that with looking infrared so so solve that with looking infrared so so solve that with looking infrared so so when people think about the probability when people think about the probability when people think about the probability they kind of they kind of they kind of misunderstanding assembly Theory says misunderstanding assembly Theory says misunderstanding assembly Theory says nothing about the chemistry because nothing about the chemistry because nothing about the chemistry because chemistry is chemistry and the chemistry is chemistry and the chemistry is chemistry and the constraints are put in by biology there constraints are put in by biology there constraints are put in by biology there was no chemist of the origin of Life was no chemist of the origin of Life was no chemist of the origin of Life unless you believe in the chemist in the unless you believe in the chemist in the unless you believe in the chemist in the sky and they were you know like Santa sky and they were you know like Santa sky and they were you know like Santa Claus they had a lot of work to do but Claus they had a lot of work to do but Claus they had a lot of work to do but but chemical reactions do not exist in but chemical reactions do not exist in but chemical reactions do not exist in the constraints that allow chemical the constraints that allow chemical the constraints that allow chemical transformations to occur do exist okay transformations to occur do exist okay transformations to occur do exist okay okay so it's constraint applic so it's okay so it's constraint applic so it's okay so it's constraint applic so it's there's no chemical reactions it's all there's no chemical reactions it's all there's no chemical reactions it's all constraint application Y which enables constraint application Y which enables constraint application Y which enables the the the emergence of emergence of emergence of Rea of what's a different word for Rea of what's a different word for Rea of what's a different word for chemical reaction uh transformation chemical reaction uh transformation chemical reaction uh transformation transformation yeah like a function it's transformation yeah like a function it's transformation yeah like a function it's a function but no but I love chemical a function but no but I love chemical a function but no but I love chemical reactions in the shorthand and and and reactions in the shorthand and and and reactions in the shorthand and and and so the chemists don't all go mad I mean so the chemists don't all go mad I mean so the chemists don't all go mad I mean of course chemical reactions exist on of course chemical reactions exist on of course chemical reactions exist on Earth short hand it's a short hand for Earth short hand it's a short hand for Earth short hand it's a short hand for these constraints for for right so these constraints for for right so these constraints for for right so assuming all these constraints that assuming all these constraints that assuming all these constraints that we've been using for so long that we we've been using for so long that we we've been using for so long that we just assume that that's what was the just assume that that's what was the just assume that that's what was the case in natural language conversation case in natural language conversation case in natural language conversation exactly the grammar of chemistry of exactly the grammar of chemistry of exactly the grammar of chemistry of course emerges in reactions and we can course emerges in reactions and we can course emerges in reactions and we can use them reliably but I do not think the use them reliably but I do not think the use them reliably but I do not think the vitic reaction is accessible on Venus vitic reaction is accessible on Venus vitic reaction is accessible on Venus right and this is useful to remember you

right and this is useful to remember you right and this is useful to remember you know to to to frame it as constraint know to to to frame it as constraint know to to to frame it as constraint application is useful for when you zoom application is useful for when you zoom application is useful for when you zoom out to the bigger picture of the out to the bigger picture of the out to the bigger picture of the universe and looking at the chemistry of universe and looking at the chemistry of universe and looking at the chemistry of the universe and then starting to apply the universe and then starting to apply the universe and then starting to apply assembly Theory yeah that's interesting assembly Theory yeah that's interesting assembly Theory yeah that's interesting that's really interesting but we've also pissed off interesting but we've also pissed off the chemist now oh they they're pretty the chemist now oh they they're pretty the chemist now oh they they're pretty happy but well most of them happy but well most of them happy but well most of them no everybody everybody deep down is no everybody everybody deep down is no everybody everybody deep down is happy I think they're just sometimes happy I think they're just sometimes happy I think they're just sometimes feisty that's how they show that's how feisty that's how they show that's how feisty that's how they show that's how they have fun everyone is grumpy on some they have fun everyone is grumpy on some they have fun everyone is grumpy on some days when when you challenge the problem days when when you challenge the problem days when when you challenge the problem with this paper is you what it's like with this paper is you what it's like with this paper is you what it's like it's almost like I went to a part it's it's almost like I went to a part it's it's almost like I went to a part it's like you I do used to do this like you I do used to do this like you I do used to do this occasionally when I was young go to a occasionally when I was young go to a occasionally when I was young go to a meeting MH and and just find a way to F meeting MH and and just find a way to F meeting MH and and just find a way to F offend everyone at the meeting offend everyone at the meeting offend everyone at the meeting simultaneously even the even the simultaneously even the even the simultaneously even the even the factions that don't like each other factions that don't like each other factions that don't like each other they're all unified in their hatred of they're all unified in their hatred of they're all unified in their hatred of you just offending them this paper it you just offending them this paper it you just offending them this paper it feels like the the person that went to feels like the the person that went to feels like the the person that went to the party and offended everyone the party and offended everyone the party and offended everyone simultaneously say stop fighting with simultaneously say stop fighting with simultaneously say stop fighting with themselves and just focused on this themselves and just focused on this themselves and just focused on this paper maybe just a little Insider paper maybe just a little Insider paper maybe just a little Insider interesting information what were the interesting information what were the interesting information what were the editors of nature like what the reviews editors of nature like what the reviews editors of nature like what the reviews and so on how difficult was that process and so on how difficult was that process and so on how difficult was that process CU this is a pretty like big paper yeah CU this is a pretty like big paper yeah CU this is a pretty like big paper yeah I mean I mean I mean the so um we when we originally sent the the so um we when we originally sent the the so um we when we originally sent the paper um we sent the paper and the paper um we sent the paper and the paper um we sent the paper and the editor editor editor said um that you know this was like this said um that you know this was like this said um that you know this was like this was a quite a long process we sent the was a quite a long process we sent the was a quite a long process we sent the paper and the editor gave us some paper and the editor gave us some paper and the editor gave us some feedback and said you know I don't think feedback and said you know I don't think feedback and said you know I don't think is that interesting it's not you know or

is that interesting it's not you know or is that interesting it's not you know or it's hard it's it's a it's hard concept it's hard it's it's a it's hard concept it's hard it's it's a it's hard concept and we asked and the editor gave us some and we asked and the editor gave us some and we asked and the editor gave us some feedback um and we and and Sarah and I feedback um and we and and Sarah and I feedback um and we and and Sarah and I took a year to rewrite the paper was the took a year to rewrite the paper was the took a year to rewrite the paper was the nature of the feedback very specific on nature of the feedback very specific on nature of the feedback very specific on like this part this part or was it like like this part this part or was it like like this part this part or was it like like what what are you guys smoking what like what what are you guys smoking what like what what are you guys smoking what kind of yeah it was kind of the latter kind of yeah it was kind of the latter kind of yeah it was kind of the latter what are you smoking okay and and you what are you smoking okay and and you what are you smoking okay and and you know but polite and there's promise yeah know but polite and there's promise yeah know but polite and there's promise yeah well the thing is there was the edit was well the thing is there was the edit was well the thing is there was the edit was really critical but in a but in a really really critical but in a but in a really really critical but in a but in a really professional way yeah and I mean for me professional way yeah and I mean for me professional way yeah and I mean for me this was the way science should happen this was the way science should happen this was the way science should happen so when it came back you know we had too so when it came back you know we had too so when it came back you know we had too many equations in the paper if you look many equations in the paper if you look many equations in the paper if you look at the preprint they're just equations at the preprint they're just equations at the preprint they're just equations everywhere like 23 equations and when I everywhere like 23 equations and when I everywhere like 23 equations and when I said to abishek who's the first author said to abishek who's the first author said to abishek who's the first author we got to remove all the equations but we got to remove all the equations but we got to remove all the equations but my assembly equation staying AB was like my assembly equation staying AB was like my assembly equation staying AB was like you know no we can't I said well look if you know no we can't I said well look if you know no we can't I said well look if we want to explain this to people we want to explain this to people we want to explain this to people there's a real challenge M and so SAR there's a real challenge M and so SAR there's a real challenge M and so SAR and I went through the I think it was and I went through the I think it was and I went through the I think it was actually 160 versions of the paper but actually 160 versions of the paper but actually 160 versions of the paper but we basically we got to version 40 or we basically we got to version 40 or we basically we got to version 40 or something we said right zero it start something we said right zero it start something we said right zero it start again so we wrote the whole paper again again so we wrote the whole paper again again so we wrote the whole paper again we knew the entire amazing and we just we knew the entire amazing and we just we knew the entire amazing and we just went bit by bit by bit and said what is went bit by bit by bit and said what is went bit by bit by bit and said what is it we want to say and then we sent the it we want to say and then we sent the it we want to say and then we sent the paper in um and to us we expected it to paper in um and to us we expected it to paper in um and to us we expected it to be rejected and not even go to review be rejected and not even go to review be rejected and not even go to review and then the we got notification back it and then the we got notification back it and then the we got notification back it had gone to review and we were like oh had gone to review and we were like oh had gone to review and we were like oh my God it's so going to get rejected my God it's so going to get rejected my God it's so going to get rejected how's it going to get rejected because how's it going to get rejected because how's it going to get rejected because the First Assembly paper that on the the First Assembly paper that on the the First Assembly paper that on the mass spec we sent to Nature got went

mass spec we sent to Nature got went mass spec we sent to Nature got went through six rounds of review and through six rounds of review and through six rounds of review and rejected MH right and there by by a by a rejected MH right and there by by a by a rejected MH right and there by by a by a chemist just said I don't believe you chemist just said I don't believe you chemist just said I don't believe you you must be committing fraud mhm um a you must be committing fraud mhm um a you must be committing fraud mhm um a long story probably a boring story but long story probably a boring story but long story probably a boring story but in this case it went out to review the in this case it went out to review the in this case it went out to review the comments came back and the comments were comments came back and the comments were comments came back and the comments were incredibly incredibly incredibly um uh no they were very there were very um uh no they were very there were very um uh no they were very there were very deep comments from all the reviewers deep comments from all the reviewers deep comments from all the reviewers there were um and but the but the none there were um and but the but the none there were um and but the but the none of the but the nice thing was the of the but the nice thing was the of the but the nice thing was the reviewers were kind reviewers were kind reviewers were kind of very critical but not dismissive they of very critical but not dismissive they of very critical but not dismissive they were like oh really explain this explain were like oh really explain this explain were like oh really explain this explain this explain this explain this are you this explain this explain this are you this explain this explain this are you sure it's not Comm goer off are you sure sure it's not Comm goer off are you sure sure it's not Comm goer off are you sure it's not this and we went through I it's not this and we went through I it's not this and we went through I think three rounds review pretty quick think three rounds review pretty quick think three rounds review pretty quick um and um and the editor went yeah it's um and um and the editor went yeah it's um and um and the editor went yeah it's in mhm but maybe you could just comment in mhm but maybe you could just comment in mhm but maybe you could just comment on the whole process uh you've published on the whole process uh you've published on the whole process uh you've published some pretty huge papers on all kinds of some pretty huge papers on all kinds of some pretty huge papers on all kinds of topics within chemistry and Beyond some topics within chemistry and Beyond some topics within chemistry and Beyond some of them have some little Spice in them a of them have some little Spice in them a of them have some little Spice in them a little spice of crazy like Tom way says little spice of crazy like Tom way says little spice of crazy like Tom way says I like my Tom with Little Drop of Poison I like my Tom with Little Drop of Poison I like my Tom with Little Drop of Poison so you know it's not um a mundane paper so you know it's not um a mundane paper so you know it's not um a mundane paper so where what's it like psychologically so where what's it like psychologically so where what's it like psychologically to go through all this process to keep to go through all this process to keep to go through all this process to keep getting rejected to uh to get reviews getting rejected to uh to get reviews getting rejected to uh to get reviews from people that don't get the paper or from people that don't get the paper or from people that don't get the paper or um all that kind of stuff just from a a um all that kind of stuff just from a a um all that kind of stuff just from a a question of a scientist like what what question of a scientist like what what question of a scientist like what what what is that like um it's uh I think

what is that like um it's uh I think what is that like um it's uh I think it's a um I mean this paper for me kind it's a um I mean this paper for me kind it's a um I mean this paper for me kind of cuz this wasn't the the first time we of cuz this wasn't the the first time we of cuz this wasn't the the first time we tried to publish assembly Theory at the tried to publish assembly Theory at the tried to publish assembly Theory at the highest level the nature Communications highest level the nature Communications highest level the nature Communications paper we on the Mass backc on the on the paper we on the Mass backc on the on the paper we on the Mass backc on the on the idea went through went to Nature and got idea went through went to Nature and got idea went through went to Nature and got rejected went through six rounds of rejected went through six rounds of rejected went through six rounds of review and got rejected and and it and review and got rejected and and it and review and got rejected and and it and it's and I I just was so confused when it's and I I just was so confused when it's and I I just was so confused when the when the chemist said this can't be the when the chemist said this can't be the when the chemist said this can't be possible I do not believe you can possible I do not believe you can possible I do not believe you can measure complexity using MPC and also by measure complexity using MPC and also by measure complexity using MPC and also by the way molecules Mo molecules the way molecules Mo molecules the way molecules Mo molecules um that complex molecules can randomly um that complex molecules can randomly um that complex molecules can randomly form and we're like but look at the data form and we're like but look at the data form and we're like but look at the data the data says and they said no no we the data says and they said no no we the data says and they said no no we don't believe you and and we went and don't believe you and and we went and don't believe you and and we went and and I just wouldn't give up um the and I just wouldn't give up um the and I just wouldn't give up um the editor and the editor in the end um was editor and the editor in the end um was editor and the editor in the end um was just like different editors actually but just like different editors actually but just like different editors actually but right what's behind that never giving up right what's behind that never giving up right what's behind that never giving up is like when you're sitting there 10:00 is like when you're sitting there 10:00 is like when you're sitting there 10:00 in the evening there's a Melancholy in the evening there's a Melancholy in the evening there's a Melancholy feeling that comes over you you're like feeling that comes over you you're like feeling that comes over you you're like okay this is rejection number okay this is rejection number okay this is rejection number five or not it's not a rejection but five or not it's not a rejection but five or not it's not a rejection but maybe it feels like a rejection because maybe it feels like a rejection because maybe it feels like a rejection because the you know the the the comments are the you know the the the comments are the you know the the the comments are that you totally don't get it like what that you totally don't get it like what that you totally don't get it like what gives you strength to keep going gives you strength to keep going gives you strength to keep going there H I don't know I don't normally get emotional know I don't normally get emotional about papers but um

it's not about giving up because we want it's not about giving up because we want to get it published because we want the to get it published because we want the to get it published because we want the glory or anything it's just like why glory or anything it's just like why glory or anything it's just like why don't you understand and so um so what I did so what I would just is um so what I did so what I would just is try to be as as as um as rational as try to be as as as um as rational as try to be as as as um as rational as possible and say yeah you didn't like it possible and say yeah you didn't like it possible and say yeah you didn't like it um tell me why and then um um sorry silly never get emotional about sorry silly never get emotional about sorry silly never get emotional about papers normally but but you but I think papers normally but but you but I think papers normally but but you but I think what we do you just compressed like five what we do you just compressed like five what we do you just compressed like five years of ANS from this so it's been it's years of ANS from this so it's been it's years of ANS from this so it's been it's been rough it's not just rough it's like been rough it's not just rough it's like been rough it's not just rough it's like it happened you know I came up with the it happened you know I came up with the it happened you know I came up with the assembly equation you know remote from assembly equation you know remote from assembly equation you know remote from Sarah in Arizona and the people Sarah in Arizona and the people Sarah in Arizona and the people SFI I felt like I was a mad person like SFI I felt like I was a mad person like SFI I felt like I was a mad person like you know the you know the you know the depicted in in a in a beautiful mind who depicted in in a in a beautiful mind who depicted in in a in a beautiful mind who was just like not not the actual genius was just like not not the actual genius was just like not not the actual genius part but just part but just part but just the yeah because I kept writing expanded the yeah because I kept writing expanded the yeah because I kept writing expanded and I have no mathematical ability at and I have no mathematical ability at and I have no mathematical ability at all and I was expand I was making these all and I was expand I was making these all and I was expand I was making these mathematical expansions where I kept mathematical expansions where I kept mathematical expansions where I kept seeing the same Motif again I was like I seeing the same Motif again I was like I seeing the same Motif again I was like I think this is a copy number the same think this is a copy number the same think this is a copy number the same string is coming again again again I string is coming again again again I string is coming again again again I kept I couldn't do the math and then I kept I couldn't do the math and then I kept I couldn't do the math and then I realized the copy number fell out of the realized the copy number fell out of the realized the copy number fell out of the equation and everything collapsed down I equation and everything collapsed down I equation and everything collapsed down I was like oh that works kind of so we was like oh that works kind of so we was like oh that works kind of so we submitted the paper and then when it was submitted the paper and then when it was submitted the paper and then when it was almost accepted right the mass Beck one

almost accepted right the mass Beck one almost accepted right the mass Beck one and it was astrobiologist gray um you and it was astrobiologist gray um you and it was astrobiologist gray um you know a mass spectroscopist said great know a mass spectroscopist said great know a mass spectroscopist said great and the chemist went nonsense like and the chemist went nonsense like and the chemist went nonsense like biggest pile of nonsense ever fraud you biggest pile of nonsense ever fraud you biggest pile of nonsense ever fraud you know and I was like but why fraud and know and I was like but why fraud and know and I was like but why fraud and they just said just because and I was they just said just because and I was they just said just because and I was like well so so and and I could not like well so so and and I could not like well so so and and I could not convince the editor in this case the convince the editor in this case the convince the editor in this case the editor was just so pissed off CU they editor was just so pissed off CU they editor was just so pissed off CU they see it as like a kind of a you know a see it as like a kind of a you know a see it as like a kind of a you know a you're wasting my time and I would not you're wasting my time and I would not you're wasting my time and I would not give up I wrote I went and did dissected give up I wrote I went and did dissected give up I wrote I went and did dissected you know all the parts and I think you know all the parts and I think you know all the parts and I think although I mean I got upset about it you although I mean I got upset about it you although I mean I got upset about it you know which kind of embarrassing actually know which kind of embarrassing actually know which kind of embarrassing actually but but I guess but but I guess but but I guess beautiful um but it was just trying to beautiful um but it was just trying to beautiful um but it was just trying to understand why they didn't like it so understand why they didn't like it so understand why they didn't like it so they were part of me was like really they were part of me was like really they were part of me was like really devastated and a part of me was super devastated and a part of me was super devastated and a part of me was super excited cuz I'm like huh they can't tell excited cuz I'm like huh they can't tell excited cuz I'm like huh they can't tell me why I'm wrong and this kind of goes me why I'm wrong and this kind of goes me why I'm wrong and this kind of goes back to you know um when I was at school back to you know um when I was at school back to you know um when I was at school I was in a kind of learning difficulties I was in a kind of learning difficulties I was in a kind of learning difficulties class and I kept going to the teacher class and I kept going to the teacher class and I kept going to the teacher and say you know you know how what do I and say you know you know how what do I and say you know you know how what do I do today to prove I'm smart and they do today to prove I'm smart and they do today to prove I'm smart and they were like nothing you can't I was like were like nothing you can't I was like were like nothing you can't I was like give me a job you know give me something give me a job you know give me something give me a job you know give me something to do give me a job to do something to to do give me a job to do something to to do give me a job to do something to to do is we um and I kind of felt like to do is we um and I kind of felt like to do is we um and I kind of felt like that a bit when I was arguing with the that a bit when I was arguing with the that a bit when I was arguing with the and not arguing there's no ad hom I and not arguing there's no ad hom I and not arguing there's no ad hom I wasn't telling the editor they were wasn't telling the editor they were wasn't telling the editor they were idiots or anything like this or the the idiots or anything like this or the the idiots or anything like this or the the reviewers I kept it strictly like reviewers I kept it strictly like reviewers I kept it strictly like factual and all I did is I just kept factual and all I did is I just kept factual and all I did is I just kept knocking it down Bit by Bit by Bit by knocking it down Bit by Bit by Bit by knocking it down Bit by Bit by Bit by Bit by Bit it was ultimately rejected Bit by Bit it was ultimately rejected Bit by Bit it was ultimately rejected and it got published elsewhere and then

and it got published elsewhere and then and it got published elsewhere and then um the actual experimental data so this um the actual experimental data so this um the actual experimental data so this is kind of in this paper the is kind of in this paper the is kind of in this paper the experimental justification was already experimental justification was already experimental justification was already published so when we did this one and we published so when we did this one and we published so when we did this one and we went through the versions and and then went through the versions and and then went through the versions and and then we sent it in and in the end it just got we sent it in and in the end it just got we sent it in and in the end it just got accepted we were like well that's kind accepted we were like well that's kind accepted we were like well that's kind of cool right this is kind of like you of cool right this is kind of like you of cool right this is kind of like you know some days you had you know the the know some days you had you know the the know some days you had you know the the the student sorry the the the first the student sorry the the the first the student sorry the the the first author was like I can't believe it God author was like I can't believe it God author was like I can't believe it God accepted like nor am I but it's great accepted like nor am I but it's great accepted like nor am I but it's great it's like it's good and then when the it's like it's good and then when the it's like it's good and then when the paper was published I was not expecting paper was published I was not expecting paper was published I was not expecting the backlash I was expecting the backlash I was expecting the backlash I was expecting computational well no actually I was computational well no actually I was computational well no actually I was just expecting one person to been just expecting one person to been just expecting one person to been trolling me for a while about it just to trolling me for a while about it just to trolling me for a while about it just to carry on trolling but I didn't expect carry on trolling but I didn't expect carry on trolling but I didn't expect the backlash and then I I wrote wrote to the backlash and then I I wrote wrote to the backlash and then I I wrote wrote to the editor and apologized and the editor the editor and apologized and the editor the editor and apologized and the editor was like what are you apologizing for was like what are you apologizing for was like what are you apologizing for it's a great paper MH of course it's it's a great paper MH of course it's it's a great paper MH of course it's going to get backlash you said some going to get backlash you said some going to get backlash you said some controversial stuff but it's awesome and controversial stuff but it's awesome and controversial stuff but it's awesome and so well it's I think it's a beautiful so well it's I think it's a beautiful so well it's I think it's a beautiful story of perseverance and the backlash story of perseverance and the backlash story of perseverance and the backlash is just a negative word is just a negative word is just a negative word for discourse which I think is beautiful for discourse which I think is beautiful for discourse which I think is beautiful I think you as I said to you know when I think you as I said to you know when I think you as I said to you know when it got accepted and people were saying it got accepted and people were saying it got accepted and people were saying were kind of like hacking on it and I were kind of like hacking on it and I were kind of like hacking on it and I was like papers are not gold medals the was like papers are not gold medals the was like papers are not gold medals the reason I wanted to publish that paper in reason I wanted to publish that paper in reason I wanted to publish that paper in nature is because it says hey there's nature is because it says hey there's nature is because it says hey there's something before biological evolution something before biological evolution something before biological evolution you have to have that if you're not a you have to have that if you're not a you have to have that if you're not a creationist by the way this is an

creationist by the way this is an creationist by the way this is an approach first time someone has put a approach first time someone has put a approach first time someone has put a concrete mechanism or sorry a concrete concrete mechanism or sorry a concrete concrete mechanism or sorry a concrete quantification and what comes next quantification and what comes next quantification and what comes next you're pushing on is a mechanism and you're pushing on is a mechanism and you're pushing on is a mechanism and that's what we need to get to is autoc that's what we need to get to is autoc that's what we need to get to is autoc candic set self-replicating molecules candic set self-replicating molecules candic set self-replicating molecules some other features that come in um and some other features that come in um and some other features that come in um and the fact that this paper has been so the fact that this paper has been so the fact that this paper has been so disgust for me is a dream come true like disgust for me is a dream come true like disgust for me is a dream come true like you it doesn't get better than that if you it doesn't get better than that if you it doesn't get better than that if you can't accept a few people hating it you can't accept a few people hating it you can't accept a few people hating it and the nice thing is the thing that I and the nice thing is the thing that I and the nice thing is the thing that I really makes me happy is that no one has really makes me happy is that no one has really makes me happy is that no one has attacked the actual physical content attacked the actual physical content attacked the actual physical content like you you can measure the assembly like you you can measure the assembly like you you can measure the assembly index you can measure selection now so index you can measure selection now so index you can measure selection now so either that's right or it's well either either that's right or it's well either either that's right or it's well either that's helpful or unhelpful if it's that's helpful or unhelpful if it's that's helpful or unhelpful if it's unhelpful this paper will sink down and unhelpful this paper will sink down and unhelpful this paper will sink down and no one will use it again if it's helpful no one will use it again if it's helpful no one will use it again if it's helpful it will help people build scaffold on it it will help people build scaffold on it it will help people build scaffold on it and we'll start to converge to a new and we'll start to converge to a new and we'll start to converge to a new paradigm so I think that that's the the paradigm so I think that that's the the paradigm so I think that that's the the thing that I wanted to see you know my thing that I wanted to see you know my thing that I wanted to see you know my colleagues authors collaborators and colleagues authors collaborators and colleagues authors collaborators and people were like you've just published people were like you've just published people were like you've just published this paper you're a chemist why have you this paper you're a chemist why have you this paper you're a chemist why have you done this like who are you to be doing done this like who are you to be doing done this like who are you to be doing evolutionary theory like well I don't evolutionary theory like well I don't evolutionary theory like well I don't know I mean sorry did I need to who know I mean sorry did I need to who know I mean sorry did I need to who anyone to do anything well I'm glad you anyone to do anything well I'm glad you anyone to do anything well I'm glad you did let me just before coming back to did let me just before coming back to did let me just before coming back to origin of life and these kinds of origin of life and these kinds of origin of life and these kinds of questions uh you mentioned learning questions uh you mentioned learning questions uh you mentioned learning difficulties I didn't know about this so difficulties I didn't know about this so difficulties I didn't know about this so what what was it like I I wasn't very what what was it like I I wasn't very what what was it like I I wasn't very good at school right um this is uh when

good at school right um this is uh when good at school right um this is uh when you were very young yeah yeah well but you were very young yeah yeah well but you were very young yeah yeah well but in primary school I U my handwriting was in primary school I U my handwriting was in primary school I U my handwriting was really poor and apparently I couldn't really poor and apparently I couldn't really poor and apparently I couldn't read and um and I and my mathematics was read and um and I and my mathematics was read and um and I and my mathematics was very poor so I just said this is a very poor so I just said this is a very poor so I just said this is a problem they identified it my parents problem they identified it my parents problem they identified it my parents kind of at the time were confused kind of at the time were confused kind of at the time were confused because I was busy taking things apart because I was busy taking things apart because I was busy taking things apart buying electronic junk from the shop buying electronic junk from the shop buying electronic junk from the shop trying to build computers and things um trying to build computers and things um trying to build computers and things um and then once I got out of when I was I and then once I got out of when I was I and then once I got out of when I was I think about the major transition in my think about the major transition in my think about the major transition in my stupidity like you know everyone thought stupidity like you know everyone thought stupidity like you know everyone thought I wasn't that stupid when I basically I wasn't that stupid when I basically I wasn't that stupid when I basically everyone thought I was faking I like everyone thought I was faking I like everyone thought I was faking I like stuff and I was faking wanting to be it stuff and I was faking wanting to be it stuff and I was faking wanting to be it so I always want to be a scientist so so I always want to be a scientist so so I always want to be a scientist so five six seven years old be a scientist five six seven years old be a scientist five six seven years old be a scientist take things apart and everyone's like take things apart and everyone's like take things apart and everyone's like yeah this guy wants to be a scientist yeah this guy wants to be a scientist yeah this guy wants to be a scientist but he's an idiot M and so and so so but he's an idiot M and so and so so but he's an idiot M and so and so so everyone was really confused I think at everyone was really confused I think at everyone was really confused I think at first that I wasn't smarter than I you first that I wasn't smarter than I you first that I wasn't smarter than I you know was claiming to be and then I just know was claiming to be and then I just know was claiming to be and then I just basically didn't do well in the test I basically didn't do well in the test I basically didn't do well in the test I went down and down and down and down and went down and down and down and down and went down and down and down and down and then um and I was kind of like huh this then um and I was kind of like huh this then um and I was kind of like huh this is really embarrassing I really like is really embarrassing I really like is really embarrassing I really like maths and everyone says I can't do it I maths and everyone says I can't do it I maths and everyone says I can't do it I really like kind of you know physics and really like kind of you know physics and really like kind of you know physics and chemistry and all that science and chemistry and all that science and chemistry and all that science and people say you're not you can't you people say you're not you can't you people say you're not you can't you can't read and write and so I found can't read and write and so I found can't read and write and so I found myself in a learning difficulties class myself in a learning difficulties class myself in a learning difficulties class at the end of primary school and the at the end of primary school and the at the end of primary school and the beginning of secondary school in the UK beginning of secondary school in the UK beginning of secondary school in the UK secondary school is like 11 12 years old secondary school is like 11 12 years old secondary school is like 11 12 years old M and I remember being put in the in the M and I remember being put in the in the M and I remember being put in the in the remedial class and the remedial class remedial class and the remedial class remedial class and the remedial class was basically full of um well two typ

was basically full of um well two typ was basically full of um well two typ three types of people there were um three types of people there were um three types of people there were um people that had quite violent right you people that had quite violent right you people that had quite violent right you know and there were people can speak know and there were people can speak know and there were people can speak English MH and there were people that English MH and there were people that English MH and there were people that really had learning really had learning really had learning difficulties so um the one thing I can objectively the one thing I can objectively remember um was I mean I could read um I remember um was I mean I could read um I remember um was I mean I could read um I like reading I read a lot um but like reading I read a lot um but like reading I read a lot um but something in me I I'm a bit of a rebel I something in me I I'm a bit of a rebel I something in me I I'm a bit of a rebel I refused to read what I was told to read refused to read what I was told to read refused to read what I was told to read um and I found it difficulty to read um and I found it difficulty to read um and I found it difficulty to read indiv ual words in the way they were indiv ual words in the way they were indiv ual words in the way they were told but anyway I got caught one day told but anyway I got caught one day told but anyway I got caught one day teaching someone else to teaching someone else to teaching someone else to read um uh and they said read um uh and they said read um uh and they said okay they we don't understand this I I okay they we don't understand this I I okay they we don't understand this I I always knew want to be a scientist but always knew want to be a scientist but always knew want to be a scientist but didn't really know what that meant and I didn't really know what that meant and I didn't really know what that meant and I realized you had to go to university and realized you had to go to university and realized you had to go to university and I thought I can just go to university I thought I can just go to university I thought I can just go to university take curious people like no no no you take curious people like no no no you take curious people like no no no you need to have these you have to be able need to have these you have to be able need to have these you have to be able to enter these exams to get this grade to enter these exams to get this grade to enter these exams to get this grade point average and the fact is the exams point average and the fact is the exams point average and the fact is the exams you've been entered into you're not you you've been entered into you're not you you've been entered into you're not you you you're just going to get C D or E you you're just going to get C D or E you you're just going to get C D or E you can't even get a b or c right these you can't even get a b or c right these you can't even get a b or c right these are the UK GDC I was like oh and I are the UK GDC I was like oh and I are the UK GDC I was like oh and I said can you just put me into the the said can you just put me into the the said can you just put me into the the high exams I said no no you're going to high exams I said no no you're going to high exams I said no no you're going to fail there's no chance so my my father

fail there's no chance so my my father fail there's no chance so my my father kind of intervened and said you know kind of intervened and said you know kind of intervened and said you know just let him go in the exams just and just let him go in the exams just and just let him go in the exams just and they said he's definitely going to fail they said he's definitely going to fail they said he's definitely going to fail it's a waste of time waste of money and it's a waste of time waste of money and it's a waste of time waste of money and he said well what if we he said well what if we he said well what if we paid so they said well okay so you paid so they said well okay so you paid so they said well okay so you didn't actually have to pay you have to didn't actually have to pay you have to didn't actually have to pay you have to pay if I failed mhm so I took the exams pay if I failed mhm so I took the exams pay if I failed mhm so I took the exams and passed them fortunately I didn't get and passed them fortunately I didn't get and passed them fortunately I didn't get the top grades but I you know I got into the top grades but I you know I got into the top grades but I you know I got into a levels but then that also kind of a levels but then that also kind of a levels but then that also kind of limited what I could do at a levels I limited what I could do at a levels I limited what I could do at a levels I wasn't allowed to do a level wasn't allowed to do a level wasn't allowed to do a level maths what do you mean you weren't maths what do you mean you weren't maths what do you mean you weren't allowed to because I I had such a bad allowed to because I I had such a bad allowed to because I I had such a bad math grade from My GCSE I only had a c math grade from My GCSE I only had a c math grade from My GCSE I only had a c MH but I they wouldn't let me go into MH but I they wouldn't let me go into MH but I they wouldn't let me go into the ABC for Mass because of some kind of the ABC for Mass because of some kind of the ABC for Mass because of some kind of coursework requirement back then so the coursework requirement back then so the coursework requirement back then so the top grade I could have got was a c so CD top grade I could have got was a c so CD top grade I could have got was a c so CD or E so I got a C and they let me do um or E so I got a C and they let me do um or E so I got a C and they let me do um a kind of as level which is this half a kind of as level which is this half a kind of as level which is this half intermediate but and get to go intermediate but and get to go intermediate but and get to go University but in the liked chemistry I University but in the liked chemistry I University but in the liked chemistry I had a good chemistry teacher so in the had a good chemistry teacher so in the had a good chemistry teacher so in the end I got to University do do chemistry end I got to University do do chemistry end I got to University do do chemistry so through that kind of process I think so through that kind of process I think so through that kind of process I think for kids in that situation it's it's for kids in that situation it's it's for kids in that situation it's it's easy to start believing that you're easy to start believing that you're easy to start believing that you're not uh well how do I put it that you're not uh well how do I put it that you're not uh well how do I put it that you're stupid and basically give up that you're stupid and basically give up that you're stupid and basically give up that you're just not good at math you're not good at just not good at math you're not good at just not good at math you're not good at school so this is by way of advice for school so this is by way of advice for school so this is by way of advice for people for interesting people people for people for interesting people people for people for interesting people people for interesting young kids right now interesting young kids right now interesting young kids right now experiencing the same thing where was experiencing the same thing where was experiencing the same thing where was the place what was the source of you not the place what was the source of you not the place what was the source of you not giving up giving up giving up there I have no idea other than um I I

there I have no idea other than um I I there I have no idea other than um I I was really I really like not was really I really like not was really I really like not understanding stuff for me when I not understanding stuff for me when I not understanding stuff for me when I not understand something um I didn't understand something um I didn't understand something um I didn't understand feel like don't understand understand feel like don't understand understand feel like don't understand anything but but now but back then I was anything but but now but back then I was anything but but now but back then I was so I remember when I was like know I I so I remember when I was like know I I so I remember when I was like know I I trilled I tried to build a laser when I trilled I tried to build a laser when I trilled I tried to build a laser when I was like eight mhm and I thought how was like eight mhm and I thought how was like eight mhm and I thought how hard could it be hard could it be hard could it be like and I basically I was going to like and I basically I was going to like and I basically I was going to built a CO I was going to build a CO2 built a CO I was going to build a CO2 built a CO I was going to build a CO2 laser and I was like right I think I laser and I was like right I think I laser and I was like right I think I need some need some need some partially um coated mirrors I need some partially um coated mirrors I need some partially um coated mirrors I need some carbon carbon carbon dioxide and I need a high high high dioxide and I need a high high high dioxide and I need a high high high voltage MH so I kind of when I was like voltage MH so I kind of when I was like voltage MH so I kind of when I was like I didn't have a and I was so stupid I didn't have a and I was so stupid I didn't have a and I was so stupid right I was kind of so embarrassed I to right I was kind of so embarrassed I to right I was kind of so embarrassed I to make off CO2 I actually set a fire and make off CO2 I actually set a fire and make off CO2 I actually set a fire and triy to filter the flame oh nice to CP triy to filter the flame oh nice to CP triy to filter the flame oh nice to CP it off CO2 and I was like completely it off CO2 and I was like completely it off CO2 and I was like completely completely failed and I bent burn half completely failed and I bent burn half completely failed and I bent burn half the the garage down so my parents were the the garage down so my parents were the the garage down so my parents were not very happy about that but so that not very happy about that but so that not very happy about that but so that was one thing I was like I really like was one thing I was like I really like was one thing I was like I really like first principal thinking and so you know first principal thinking and so you know first principal thinking and so you know um so I'm I remember being super curious um so I'm I remember being super curious um so I'm I remember being super curious and being determined to find answers and and being determined to find answers and and being determined to find answers and so the kind of when people do a give so the kind of when people do a give so the kind of when people do a give advice about this well I ask for advice advice about this well I ask for advice advice about this well I ask for advice about this I don't really have that much about this I don't really have that much about this I don't really have that much advice other than don't give up and one advice other than don't give up and one advice other than don't give up and one of the things I try to do um as a as a of the things I try to do um as a as a of the things I try to do um as a as a chemistry professor in my group is I I chemistry professor in my group is I I chemistry professor in my group is I I don't I hire don't I hire don't I hire people that I think that you know I'm people that I think that you know I'm people that I think that you know I'm kind of who am I if they're persistent

kind of who am I if they're persistent kind of who am I if they're persistent enough um who am I to deny them the enough um who am I to deny them the enough um who am I to deny them the chance because some you know people gave chance because some you know people gave chance because some you know people gave me a chance and I was able to do stuff me a chance and I was able to do stuff me a chance and I was able to do stuff do you believe in yourself essentially do you believe in yourself essentially do you believe in yourself essentially I'm I like so I love being around smart I'm I like so I love being around smart I'm I like so I love being around smart people and I love confusing smart people people and I love confusing smart people people and I love confusing smart people and when I'm confusing smart people you and when I'm confusing smart people you and when I'm confusing smart people you know not by stealing their wallets and know not by stealing their wallets and know not by stealing their wallets and hiding it somewhere but if I can confuse hiding it somewhere but if I can confuse hiding it somewhere but if I can confuse smart people that is the one piece of smart people that is the one piece of smart people that is the one piece of hope that I might be doing something hope that I might be doing something hope that I might be doing something interesting oh that's quite brilliant interesting oh that's quite brilliant interesting oh that's quite brilliant like as a gradient to like as a gradient to like as a gradient to optimize yeah hang out with smart people optimize yeah hang out with smart people optimize yeah hang out with smart people and confuse them and the more confusing and confuse them and the more confusing and confuse them and the more confusing it is the more there's something there it is the more there's something there it is the more there's something there and as long as they're not telling you and as long as they're not telling you and as long as they're not telling you just a complete idiot and and they give just a complete idiot and and they give just a complete idiot and and they give you different reasons yeah and I mean you different reasons yeah and I mean you different reasons yeah and I mean I'm you know if everyone CU like with I'm you know if everyone CU like with I'm you know if everyone CU like with assembly Theory and people said oh it's assembly Theory and people said oh it's assembly Theory and people said oh it's wrong and I was like why and they're wrong and I was like why and they're wrong and I was like why and they're like and no one could give me a like and no one could give me a like and no one could give me a consistent reason they said oh because consistent reason they said oh because consistent reason they said oh because it's been done before or it's just Comm it's been done before or it's just Comm it's been done before or it's just Comm AOL off or it's just there that and the AOL off or it's just there that and the AOL off or it's just there that and the other so I think the the the thing that other so I think the the the thing that other so I think the the the thing that I like to do is and in Academia it's I like to do is and in Academia it's I like to do is and in Academia it's hard right because people are critical hard right because people are critical hard right because people are critical but I mean you know the criticism I mean but I mean you know the criticism I mean but I mean you know the criticism I mean although I got kind of upset about it although I got kind of upset about it although I got kind of upset about it earlier which is kind of silly but not earlier which is kind of silly but not earlier which is kind of silly but not silly because obviously it's hard work silly because obviously it's hard work silly because obviously it's hard work being on your own or with a team being on your own or with a team being on your own or with a team spacially separated like during lockdown spacially separated like during lockdown spacially separated like during lockdown and and try to keep everyone on board and and try to keep everyone on board and and try to keep everyone on board and and and and be you know have some and and and and be you know have some and and and and be you know have some faith faith faith that I've always wanted to have a new that I've always wanted to have a new that I've always wanted to have a new idea and so you know I like a new idea idea and so you know I like a new idea idea and so you know I like a new idea and I want to I don't want I want to and I want to I don't want I want to and I want to I don't want I want to nurture it as long as possible and if

nurture it as long as possible and if nurture it as long as possible and if someone can give me actionable criticism someone can give me actionable criticism someone can give me actionable criticism that's why I think I was trying to say that's why I think I was trying to say that's why I think I was trying to say earlier when I was kind of like stuck earlier when I was kind of like stuck earlier when I was kind of like stuck for Words give me actionable criticism for Words give me actionable criticism for Words give me actionable criticism you know it's wrong okay why is it wrong you know it's wrong okay why is it wrong you know it's wrong okay why is it wrong say oh it doesn't your equation is say oh it doesn't your equation is say oh it doesn't your equation is incorrect for this or your method is incorrect for this or your method is incorrect for this or your method is wrong and then so if and so what I try wrong and then so if and so what I try wrong and then so if and so what I try and do is get enough criticism um from and do is get enough criticism um from and do is get enough criticism um from people to then triangulate and go back people to then triangulate and go back people to then triangulate and go back and I've been very fortunate in my life and I've been very fortunate in my life and I've been very fortunate in my life that I've got great colleagues great that I've got great colleagues great that I've got great colleagues great collaborators funders mentors and people collaborators funders mentors and people collaborators funders mentors and people that will take the time to say you're that will take the time to say you're that will take the time to say you're wrong wrong wrong because and then what I have to do is because and then what I have to do is because and then what I have to do is integrate the wrongness and go oh cool integrate the wrongness and go oh cool integrate the wrongness and go oh cool maybe I can fix that and I think maybe I can fix that and I think maybe I can fix that and I think criticism is really good people have a criticism is really good people have a criticism is really good people have a go at me because I'm really critical I'm go at me because I'm really critical I'm go at me because I'm really critical I'm like but I'm not criticizing you know like but I'm not criticizing you know like but I'm not criticizing you know you as a person I'm just criticizing the you as a person I'm just criticizing the you as a person I'm just criticizing the idea and trying to make it better and idea and trying to make it better and idea and trying to make it better and say well what about this and you know say well what about this and you know say well what about this and you know and sometimes I'm kind of you know my and sometimes I'm kind of you know my and sometimes I'm kind of you know my filters are kind of uh you know trunca filters are kind of uh you know trunca filters are kind of uh you know trunca in some ways I'm just like that's wrong in some ways I'm just like that's wrong in some ways I'm just like that's wrong that's wrong that's wrong what do this that's wrong that's wrong what do this that's wrong that's wrong what do this and people like oh my God you just told and people like oh my God you just told and people like oh my God you just told me you destroyed my life's work I'm like me you destroyed my life's work I'm like me you destroyed my life's work I'm like relax no I'm just like let's make it relax no I'm just like let's make it relax no I'm just like let's make it better and I think that we don't do that better and I think that we don't do that better and I think that we don't do that enough cuz we're we're you know we we're enough cuz we're we're you know we we're enough cuz we're we're you know we we're we're we're either personally critical we're we're either personally critical we're we're either personally critical which isn't helpful or we don't give any which isn't helpful or we don't give any which isn't helpful or we don't give any criticism at all because we're too criticism at all because we're too criticism at all because we're too scared yeah I yeah the I've seen you be scared yeah I yeah the I've seen you be scared yeah I yeah the I've seen you be pretty aggressively critical but it's pretty aggressively critical but it's pretty aggressively critical but it's every time I've seen it it's the idea

every time I've seen it it's the idea every time I've seen it it's the idea not the person um I I'm sure I make not the person um I I'm sure I make not the person um I I'm sure I make mistakes on that I mean I I you know I mistakes on that I mean I I you know I mistakes on that I mean I I you know I argue I argue Lots with with lots I mean argue I argue Lots with with lots I mean argue I argue Lots with with lots I mean I argue Lots with Sarah and she's like I argue Lots with Sarah and she's like I argue Lots with Sarah and she's like kind of shocked I've argued with yasher kind of shocked I've argued with yasher kind of shocked I've argued with yasher in the past and he's like you're just in the past and he's like you're just in the past and he's like you're just making Yash and you're like you're just making Yash and you're like you're just making Yash and you're like you're just making that up I'm like no not not making that up I'm like no not not making that up I'm like no not not quite but kind of yeah um you know I had quite but kind of yeah um you know I had quite but kind of yeah um you know I had a big argument with Sarah about time a big argument with Sarah about time a big argument with Sarah about time she's like no time time doesn't exist she's like no time time doesn't exist she's like no time time doesn't exist I'm like no no time does exist and now I'm like no no time does exist and now I'm like no no time does exist and now and as as she realized the her and as as she realized the her and as as she realized the her conception of assembly Theory and my conception of assembly Theory and my conception of assembly Theory and my conception assembly Theory with the same conception assembly Theory with the same conception assembly Theory with the same thing necessitated us to abandon the thing necessitated us to abandon the thing necessitated us to abandon the fact that time is eternal fact that time is eternal fact that time is eternal to actually really fundamentally to actually really fundamentally to actually really fundamentally question how the universe produces question how the universe produces question how the universe produces commentarial novelty so so time is commentarial novelty so so time is commentarial novelty so so time is fundamental for assembly Theory um I'm fundamental for assembly Theory um I'm fundamental for assembly Theory um I'm just trying to figure out where you and just trying to figure out where you and just trying to figure out where you and Sarah converged so I I think assembly Sarah converged so I I think assembly Sarah converged so I I think assembly theory is fine in this time right now theory is fine in this time right now theory is fine in this time right now but I think it helps us understand that but I think it helps us understand that but I think it helps us understand that something interesting is going on so something interesting is going on so something interesting is going on so there's and I'm been really inspired by there's and I'm been really inspired by there's and I'm been really inspired by a a guy called Nick gizen I'm going to a a guy called Nick gizen I'm going to a a guy called Nick gizen I'm going to butcher his argument but I love his butcher his argument but I love his butcher his argument but I love his argument a lot so I hope he forgives me argument a lot so I hope he forgives me argument a lot so I hope he forgives me if he hears about it but if he hears about it but if he hears about it but basically um if you want free will time basically um if you want free will time basically um if you want free will time has to be has to be has to be fundamental and we can go a and um if fundamental and we can go a and um if fundamental and we can go a and um if you want time to be you want time to be you want time to be fundamental fundamental fundamental um you have to give up on platonic um you have to give up on platonic um you have to give up on platonic mathematics and you have to use

mathematics and you have to use mathematics and you have to use intuitionist mathematics by the by the intuitionist mathematics by the by the intuitionist mathematics by the by the way um and again I'm going to butcher way um and again I'm going to butcher way um and again I'm going to butcher this but basically this but basically this but basically Hilbert said that you know Hilbert said that you know Hilbert said that you know infinite numbers are allowed and I think infinite numbers are allowed and I think infinite numbers are allowed and I think it was Brower said no you can't all it was Brower said no you can't all it was Brower said no you can't all numbers are finite so they're kind of numbers are finite so they're kind of numbers are finite so they're kind of like we so let's go back a step because like we so let's go back a step because like we so let's go back a step because I was like people going to say assembly I was like people going to say assembly I was like people going to say assembly Theory seems to explain that commentor Theory seems to explain that commentor Theory seems to explain that commentor large commentarial large commentarial large commentarial space um allows you to produce things space um allows you to produce things space um allows you to produce things like life and technology and that large like life and technology and that large like life and technology and that large commentarial space is so big it's not commentarial space is so big it's not commentarial space is so big it's not even accessible to a Shan Carol David even accessible to a Shan Carol David even accessible to a Shan Carol David deut deut deut Multiverse the physicist saying that um Multiverse the physicist saying that um Multiverse the physicist saying that um that all of all of universe already that all of all of universe already that all of all of universe already exists in exists in exists in time is time is time is probably probably probably provably strong provably strong provably strong word not word not word not correct that we are going to know that correct that we are going to know that correct that we are going to know that the universe as it stands the present the universe as it stands the present the universe as it stands the present the way the present builds the future so the way the present builds the future so the way the present builds the future so big the universe can't ever contain the big the universe can't ever contain the big the universe can't ever contain the future and this is a really interesting future and this is a really interesting future and this is a really interesting thing I think Max techmark has this thing I think Max techmark has this thing I think Max techmark has this mathematical Universe he says you know mathematical Universe he says you know mathematical Universe he says you know the universe is kind of like a block the universe is kind of like a block the universe is kind of like a block universe and I apologize to Max if I'm universe and I apologize to Max if I'm universe and I apologize to Max if I'm getting it wrong but people think you getting it wrong but people think you getting it wrong but people think you can just move you have the stat you have can just move you have the stat you have can just move you have the stat you have the initial the initial the initial conditions and you can run the Universe conditions and you can run the Universe conditions and you can run the Universe um right to the end and go backwards and um right to the end and go backwards and um right to the end and go backwards and forwards in that universe that is not

forwards in that universe that is not forwards in that universe that is not correct yeah let me load that in the correct yeah let me load that in the correct yeah let me load that in the universe is not big enough to contain universe is not big enough to contain universe is not big enough to contain the future yeah that's why that's it the future yeah that's why that's it the future yeah that's why that's it that that's another that's a beautiful that that's another that's a beautiful that that's another that's a beautiful way of saying that time is fundamental way of saying that time is fundamental way of saying that time is fundamental yes and and that you can have and that's yes and and that you can have and that's yes and and that you can have and that's what this is why um the ex the law of what this is why um the ex the law of what this is why um the ex the law of the excluded middle something is true or the excluded middle something is true or the excluded middle something is true or False only works in the past is it going to snow in New York past is it going to snow in New York next week or in Austin you might in next week or in Austin you might in next week or in Austin you might in Austin say probably not in New York you Austin say probably not in New York you Austin say probably not in New York you might say yeah if you go forward to next might say yeah if you go forward to next might say yeah if you go forward to next week and say did it snow in New York week and say did it snow in New York week and say did it snow in New York last week true or false you can answer last week true or false you can answer last week true or false you can answer that question the fact that the law of that question the fact that the law of that question the fact that the law of the excluded middle cannot apply to the the excluded middle cannot apply to the the excluded middle cannot apply to the Future explains why time is Future explains why time is Future explains why time is fundamental well I mean that that that's fundamental well I mean that that that's fundamental well I mean that that that's a good example intuitive example but a good example intuitive example but a good example intuitive example but it's possible that we might be able to it's possible that we might be able to it's possible that we might be able to predict you know whether it's going to predict you know whether it's going to predict you know whether it's going to snow if we had the perfect information I snow if we had the perfect information I snow if we had the perfect information I I think we you're saying not I think we you're saying not I think we you're saying not impossible impossible so here's why yeah impossible impossible so here's why yeah impossible impossible so here's why yeah I'll make a really quick argument and I'll make a really quick argument and I'll make a really quick argument and this argument isn't mine it's it's this argument isn't mine it's it's this argument isn't mine it's it's Nick's and and a few other people can Nick's and and a few other people can Nick's and and a few other people can you can you explain his view on you can you explain his view on you can you explain his view on fundamental on time being fundamental fundamental on time being fundamental fundamental on time being fundamental yeah so I'll give my view which kind of yeah so I'll give my view which kind of yeah so I'll give my view which kind of resonates with his but basically um it's resonates with his but basically um it's resonates with his but basically um it's very simple actually it would say that very simple actually it would say that very simple actually it would say that free will that your ability to design free will that your ability to design free will that your ability to design and do an experiment uh is exercising and do an experiment uh is exercising and do an experiment uh is exercising Free Will so he used that thought Free Will so he used that thought Free Will so he used that thought process and I never really thought about process and I never really thought about process and I never really thought about it that way um and that you actively

it that way um and that you actively it that way um and that you actively make make make decisions I do think that I used to decisions I do think that I used to decisions I do think that I used to think that Free Will was a kind of kind think that Free Will was a kind of kind think that Free Will was a kind of kind of consequence of just selection but I'm of consequence of just selection but I'm of consequence of just selection but I'm kind of understanding that human Free kind of understanding that human Free kind of understanding that human Free Will is something really Will is something really Will is something really interesting um and he very much inspired interesting um and he very much inspired interesting um and he very much inspired me but a thing that what Sarah Walker me but a thing that what Sarah Walker me but a thing that what Sarah Walker said that inspired me as well that that said that inspired me as well that that said that inspired me as well that that um these will converge is that I think um these will converge is that I think um these will converge is that I think that the Universe in the universe is that the Universe in the universe is that the Universe in the universe is very big huge MH but very big huge MH but very big huge MH but actually the own the place is largest in actually the own the place is largest in actually the own the place is largest in the universe right now the largest place the universe right now the largest place the universe right now the largest place in the universe is Earth yeah I've I've in the universe is Earth yeah I've I've in the universe is Earth yeah I've I've seen you say that and boy does seen you say that and boy does seen you say that and boy does that that's a that's an interesting one that that's a that's an interesting one that that's a that's an interesting one of process what do you mean by that of process what do you mean by that of process what do you mean by that Earth is the biggest place in the Earth is the biggest place in the Earth is the biggest place in the universe because we have this coment universe because we have this coment universe because we have this coment toal scaffolding going all the way back toal scaffolding going all the way back toal scaffolding going all the way back from Luca so you've have you've got from Luca so you've have you've got from Luca so you've have you've got cells that can self-replicate and then cells that can self-replicate and then cells that can self-replicate and then you go all the way to terraforming the you go all the way to terraforming the you go all the way to terraforming the Earth you got all these architectures Earth you got all these architectures Earth you got all these architectures the amount of selection that's going on the amount of selection that's going on the amount of selection that's going on biological selection just to be clear biological selection just to be clear biological selection just to be clear biological evolution and then you have biological evolution and then you have biological evolution and then you have multicellularity then animals and multicellularity then animals and multicellularity then animals and abstraction and when abstraction there abstraction and when abstraction there abstraction and when abstraction there was another kick because you can then was another kick because you can then was another kick because you can then build architectures and computers and build architectures and computers and build architectures and computers and cultures and language and these things cultures and language and these things cultures and language and these things are the biggest things exist in the are the biggest things exist in the are the biggest things exist in the universe because we can just Build universe because we can just Build universe because we can just Build architectures That Could naturally arise architectures That Could naturally arise architectures That Could naturally arise anywhere and the further that distance anywhere and the further that distance anywhere and the further that distance goes in time and this kind of is is just goes in time and this kind of is is just goes in time and this kind of is is just it's gigantic MH and from a complexity

it's gigantic MH and from a complexity it's gigantic MH and from a complexity perspective yeah okay wait a minute but perspective yeah okay wait a minute but perspective yeah okay wait a minute but I mean I know you're being poetic but I mean I know you're being poetic but I mean I know you're being poetic but how do you know there's not other earth how do you know there's not other earth how do you know there's not other earth like uh like how do you know you're like uh like how do you know you're like uh like how do you know you're you're basically saying Earth is really you're basically saying Earth is really you're basically saying Earth is really special it's awesome stuff as far as we special it's awesome stuff as far as we special it's awesome stuff as far as we look out there's nothing like it going look out there's nothing like it going look out there's nothing like it going on but how do you know there's not on but how do you know there's not on but how do you know there's not nearly infinite number of places where nearly infinite number of places where nearly infinite number of places where cool stuff like this is going on I agree cool stuff like this is going on I agree cool stuff like this is going on I agree and I would say I I'll say again that and I would say I I'll say again that and I would say I I'll say again that Earth is the most gigantic thing we know Earth is the most gigantic thing we know Earth is the most gigantic thing we know in the universe commentor we know we in the universe commentor we know we in the universe commentor we know we know now now I guess this is just purely know now now I guess this is just purely know now now I guess this is just purely a guess I have no data but other than a guess I have no data but other than a guess I have no data but other than hope well maybe not hope maybe no I have hope well maybe not hope maybe no I have hope well maybe not hope maybe no I have some data um that every star in the sky some data um that every star in the sky some data um that every star in the sky probably has planets Y and life is probably has planets Y and life is probably has planets Y and life is probably emerging on these planets but probably emerging on these planets but probably emerging on these planets but this the amount of contingency that is this the amount of contingency that is this the amount of contingency that is associated with life is I think the associated with life is I think the associated with life is I think the commentarial space associated with these commentarial space associated with these commentarial space associated with these planets is so different we are never planets is so different we are never planets is so different we are never going to our causal cones are never going to our causal cones are never going to our causal cones are never going to overlap or not easily going to overlap or not easily going to overlap or not easily and this is a thing that makes me sad and this is a thing that makes me sad and this is a thing that makes me sad about alien life why it's why we have to about alien life why it's why we have to about alien life why it's why we have to create alien life in the lab as quickly create alien life in the lab as quickly create alien life in the lab as quickly as possible because I don't know if we as possible because I don't know if we as possible because I don't know if we are going to be able to be able to are going to be able to be able to are going to be able to be able to build um architectures that will build um architectures that will build um architectures that will intersect with alien Co intelligence C intersect with alien Co intelligence C intersect with alien Co intelligence C and architectures intersect you you know and architectures intersect you you know and architectures intersect you you know what mean in time or space time and the

what mean in time or space time and the what mean in time or space time and the ability to communicate the ability to ability to communicate the ability to ability to communicate the ability to communicate yeah my biggest fear in a communicate yeah my biggest fear in a communicate yeah my biggest fear in a way is that life is everywhere but we way is that life is everywhere but we way is that life is everywhere but we become infinitely more lonely because of become infinitely more lonely because of become infinitely more lonely because of our Scaffolding in that commentor space our Scaffolding in that commentor space our Scaffolding in that commentor space because it's so big and so you're saying because it's so big and so you're saying because it's so big and so you're saying the the constraints created by the the the constraints created by the the the constraints created by the environment that led to the factory of environment that led to the factory of environment that led to the factory of darwinian darwinian darwinian evolution are just like l a little tiny evolution are just like l a little tiny evolution are just like l a little tiny cone in a nearly Infinite combinatory cone in a nearly Infinite combinatory cone in a nearly Infinite combinatory Space so there's other cones like it and Space so there's other cones like it and Space so there's other cones like it and and why why can't we communicate with and why why can't we communicate with and why why can't we communicate with other like just because we can't create other like just because we can't create other like just because we can't create it doesn't mean we can't appreciate the it doesn't mean we can't appreciate the it doesn't mean we can't appreciate the creation right like that sorry detect creation right like that sorry detect creation right like that sorry detect the creation I I I truly don't know but the creation I I I truly don't know but the creation I I I truly don't know but I it's an excuse for me to ask for I it's an excuse for me to ask for I it's an excuse for me to ask for people to give me money to make a planet people to give me money to make a planet people to give me money to make a planet simulator yeah right if I can make with simulator yeah right if I can make with simulator yeah right if I can make with a different different like another a different different like another a different different like another Shameless say it's like give me money I Shameless say it's like give me money I Shameless say it's like give me money I need money this was all long plug for a need money this was all long plug for a need money this was all long plug for a planet simulator it's like you know hey planet simulator it's like you know hey planet simulator it's like you know hey I will be the first in lie to my my my I will be the first in lie to my my my I will be the first in lie to my my my my Rick my Rick garage has run out of my Rick my Rick garage has run out of my Rick my Rick garage has run out of room you know yeah no um and this is a room you know yeah no um and this is a room you know yeah no um and this is a planet simulator you mean like a planet simulator you mean like a planet simulator you mean like a different kind of planet or different different kind of planet or different different kind of planet or different sets of environments and pressures sets of environments and pressures sets of environments and pressures exactly if we could basically recreate exactly if we could basically recreate exactly if we could basically recreate the selection before biology as we know the selection before biology as we know the selection before biology as we know it that gives rise to a different it that gives rise to a different it that gives rise to a different biology we should be a to put the biology we should be a to put the biology we should be a to put the constraints on where to look in the constraints on where to look in the constraints on where to look in the universe so here's a thing here's my universe so here's a thing here's my universe so here's a thing here's my here's my dream my dream is that by

here's my dream my dream is that by here's my dream my dream is that by creating life in the lab based upon creating life in the lab based upon creating life in the lab based upon constraints we understand like like go constraints we understand like like go constraints we understand like like go for Venus typee life or earth type life for Venus typee life or earth type life for Venus typee life or earth type life or something again do earth 2.0 screw it or something again do earth 2.0 screw it or something again do earth 2.0 screw it let's do earth 2.0 and Earth 2.0 has a let's do earth 2.0 and Earth 2.0 has a let's do earth 2.0 and Earth 2.0 has a different genetic alphabet fine that's different genetic alphabet fine that's different genetic alphabet fine that's fine different um protein alphabet fine fine different um protein alphabet fine fine different um protein alphabet fine have cells and evolution all that stuff have cells and evolution all that stuff have cells and evolution all that stuff we will then be able to say okay life is we will then be able to say okay life is we will then be able to say okay life is a more General phenomena selection is a more General phenomena selection is a more General phenomena selection is more General than than what we think is more General than than what we think is more General than than what we think is Con the chemical constraints on life and Con the chemical constraints on life and Con the chemical constraints on life and we can point the James web and other we can point the James web and other we can point the James web and other telescopes at other planets that we are telescopes at other planets that we are telescopes at other planets that we are in that zone we are most likely to con in that zone we are most likely to con in that zone we are most likely to con combinatorially overlap with right so combinatorially overlap with right so combinatorially overlap with right so because you know we B so there chemistry because you know we B so there chemistry because you know we B so there chemistry looking for some overlap and then we can looking for some overlap and then we can looking for some overlap and then we can then basically um shine light on them then basically um shine light on them then basically um shine light on them literally and white look at light coming literally and white look at light coming literally and white look at light coming back and apply Advanced assembly Theory back and apply Advanced assembly Theory back and apply Advanced assembly Theory to Lang general theory of language that to Lang general theory of language that to Lang general theory of language that we will get and say hauh we in that we will get and say hauh we in that we will get and say hauh we in that signal it looks random but there's a signal it looks random but there's a signal it looks random but there's a copy number oh this this random set of copy number oh this this random set of copy number oh this this random set of things that shouldn't be that looks like things that shouldn't be that looks like things that shouldn't be that looks like a a true random number generator has a a true random number generator has a a true random number generator has structure as a not com not Kolarov AIT structure as a not com not Kolarov AIT structure as a not com not Kolarov AIT type structure but evolutionary type structure but evolutionary type structure but evolutionary structure given by assembly Theory and structure given by assembly Theory and structure given by assembly Theory and we start to um but I would say that cuz we start to um but I would say that cuz we start to um but I would say that cuz I'm a Shameless assembly theorist yeah I I'm a Shameless assembly theorist yeah I I'm a Shameless assembly theorist yeah I it just feels like the the cone I might it just feels like the the cone I might it just feels like the the cone I might be misusing the word cone here but the

be misusing the word cone here but the be misusing the word cone here but the width of the cone is growing width of the cone is growing width of the cone is growing faster um is grow really fast to where faster um is grow really fast to where faster um is grow really fast to where eventually all the cones eventually all the cones eventually all the cones overlap even in a very very very large overlap even in a very very very large overlap even in a very very very large comori comori comori space I I it space I I it space I I it just but then again if you're saying the just but then again if you're saying the just but then again if you're saying the universe is uh also growing very quickly universe is uh also growing very quickly universe is uh also growing very quickly in terms of possibilities that's really in terms of possibilities that's really in terms of possibilities that's really I hope that as we I hope that as we I hope that as we build as we build build as we build build as we build abstractions the main I mean one one abstractions the main I mean one one abstractions the main I mean one one idea is that as we go to idea is that as we go to idea is that as we go to intelligence intelligence allows us to intelligence intelligence allows us to intelligence intelligence allows us to look at the regularities around us in look at the regularities around us in look at the regularities around us in the the the universe and that gives us some common universe and that gives us some common universe and that gives us some common grounding to to discuss with aliens and grounding to to discuss with aliens and grounding to to discuss with aliens and and you might be right that there we and you might be right that there we and you might be right that there we will overlap there even though we have will overlap there even though we have will overlap there even though we have completely different chemistry literally completely different chemistry literally completely different chemistry literally completely different chemistry um um completely different chemistry um um completely different chemistry um um that we will be pass information from that we will be pass information from that we will be pass information from one another but it's not a given and um one another but it's not a given and um one another but it's not a given and um um you know I have to kind of try and um you know I have to kind of try and um you know I have to kind of try and divorce hope and emotion you know away divorce hope and emotion you know away divorce hope and emotion you know away from what I and I can logically justify from what I and I can logically justify from what I and I can logically justify but it's just hard to Intuit it a world but it's just hard to Intuit it a world but it's just hard to Intuit it a world a universe where a universe where a universe where there's nearly infinite complexity there's nearly infinite complexity there's nearly infinite complexity objects and they somehow can't detect objects and they somehow can't detect objects and they somehow can't detect each other but universe is expanding but each other but universe is expanding but each other but universe is expanding but the nice thing is I would say I would the nice thing is I would say I would the nice thing is I would say I would look you see I think Carl Sean did the

look you see I think Carl Sean did the look you see I think Carl Sean did the wrong well not the wrong thing he he wrong well not the wrong thing he he wrong well not the wrong thing he he flicked the Voyager program pale blue flicked the Voyager program pale blue flicked the Voyager program pale blue dot said look how big universe is I dot said look how big universe is I dot said look how big universe is I would have done it the other way around would have done it the other way around would have done it the other way around said look at the voyage of per that came said look at the voyage of per that came said look at the voyage of per that came from the planet Earth that came from from the planet Earth that came from from the planet Earth that came from Luca look at how big Earth is Luca look at how big Earth is Luca look at how big Earth is MHM then it produced that It produced MHM then it produced that It produced MHM then it produced that It produced that yeah and that I think is like that yeah and that I think is like that yeah and that I think is like completely amazing and then that should completely amazing and then that should completely amazing and then that should allow people on Earth to think about allow people on Earth to think about allow people on Earth to think about well probably we should try and get um well probably we should try and get um well probably we should try and get um causal chains off Earth onto Mars onto causal chains off Earth onto Mars onto causal chains off Earth onto Mars onto the moon wherever whe it's human life or the moon wherever whe it's human life or the moon wherever whe it's human life or Martian life that we create it doesn't Martian life that we create it doesn't Martian life that we create it doesn't matter um but but I think um this matter um but but I think um this matter um but but I think um this commentarial space tells us something commentarial space tells us something commentarial space tells us something very important about the Universe um and very important about the Universe um and very important about the Universe um and and that I realized in assembly theory and that I realized in assembly theory and that I realized in assembly theory that the universe is too big to contain that the universe is too big to contain that the universe is too big to contain itself and and I think this is and I'll itself and and I think this is and I'll itself and and I think this is and I'll coming back and I want to I want to kind coming back and I want to I want to kind coming back and I want to I want to kind of change your mind about time because of change your mind about time because of change your mind about time because I'm I'm guessing that your uh time is I'm I'm guessing that your uh time is I'm I'm guessing that your uh time is just um coordinate yeah so I'm I'm going just um coordinate yeah so I'm I'm going just um coordinate yeah so I'm I'm going to change your guessing you're one of to change your guessing you're one of to change your guessing you're one of those I'm going to change your one of those I'm going to change your one of those I'm going to change your one of those I'm going change your mind in real those I'm going change your mind in real those I'm going change your mind in real time at least attempt oh in real time time at least attempt oh in real time time at least attempt oh in real time there you go um I already got the tattoo there you go um I already got the tattoo there you go um I already got the tattoo so this is going to be embarrassing if so this is going to be embarrassing if so this is going to be embarrassing if you change my mind but you can just add you change my mind but you can just add you change my mind but you can just add you can just add Arrow time onto it you can just add Arrow time onto it you can just add Arrow time onto it right true or erase it a bit so um and right true or erase it a bit so um and right true or erase it a bit so um and the argument that I think that is really the argument that I think that is really the argument that I think that is really most interesting is like people say the most interesting is like people say the most interesting is like people say the initial initial initial conditions um specify the future of the conditions um specify the future of the conditions um specify the future of the universe okay fine let's say that's the universe okay fine let's say that's the universe okay fine let's say that's the case for a moment now let's go back to case for a moment now let's go back to case for a moment now let's go back to newtonium

newtonium newtonium mechanics now the uncertain mechanics now the uncertain mechanics now the uncertain principle in newtonium mechanics is this principle in newtonium mechanics is this principle in newtonium mechanics is this if I give you the coordinates of your of if I give you the coordinates of your of if I give you the coordinates of your of an object moving in an object moving in an object moving in space and the coordinates of another space and the coordinates of another space and the coordinates of another object and they Collide in space and you object and they Collide in space and you object and they Collide in space and you know those initial conditions you should know those initial conditions you should know those initial conditions you should know exactly what's going to happen MH know exactly what's going to happen MH know exactly what's going to happen MH however you cannot specify these however you cannot specify these however you cannot specify these coordinates to infinite Precision now coordinates to infinite Precision now coordinates to infinite Precision now everyone said you know oh this is kind everyone said you know oh this is kind everyone said you know oh this is kind of like you know um the chaos Siri of like you know um the chaos Siri of like you know um the chaos Siri argument no no it's deeper than that argument no no it's deeper than that argument no no it's deeper than that here's a problem with numbers this how here's a problem with numbers this how here's a problem with numbers this how this is where Hilbert and Brower fell this is where Hilbert and Brower fell this is where Hilbert and Brower fell out out out um to have the coordinates of this um to have the coordinates of this um to have the coordinates of this object are given all as are colliding object are given all as are colliding object are given all as are colliding you have to have them to infinite you have to have them to infinite you have to have them to infinite Precision that's what Hilbert says it Precision that's what Hilbert says it Precision that's what Hilbert says it says no problem infinite Precision is says no problem infinite Precision is says no problem infinite Precision is fine let's just take that for granted fine let's just take that for granted fine let's just take that for granted but when the but when the but when the object is finite and it can't store its object is finite and it can't store its object is finite and it can't store its own coordinates what do you do own coordinates what do you do own coordinates what do you do mhm so in principle if a finite object mhm so in principle if a finite object mhm so in principle if a finite object cannot be SP specified to infinite cannot be SP specified to infinite cannot be SP specified to infinite Precision in principle the initial Precision in principle the initial Precision in principle the initial conditions don't apply well how do you conditions don't apply well how do you conditions don't apply well how do you know it can't store it um well how do know it can't store it um well how do know it can't store it um well how do you store an infinitely long number in a you store an infinitely long number in a you store an infinitely long number in a finite size well we're using Infinity very Loosely well we're using Infinity very Loosely here no no we're using infinite here no no we're using infinite here no no we're using infinite Precision I mean not Loosely but very Precision I mean not Loosely but very Precision I mean not Loosely but very precisely you think infinite Precision precisely you think infinite Precision precisely you think infinite Precision is required well let's let's take the is required well let's let's take the is required well let's let's take the object let's say the object is a a golf

object let's say the object is a a golf object let's say the object is a a golf ball mhm golf ball is a few centim in ball mhm golf ball is a few centim in ball mhm golf ball is a few centim in diameter we can work out how many atoms diameter we can work out how many atoms diameter we can work out how many atoms there are in the golf ball and let's say there are in the golf ball and let's say there are in the golf ball and let's say we can store numbers down to Atomic we can store numbers down to Atomic we can store numbers down to Atomic dislocations MH so we can work out how dislocations MH so we can work out how dislocations MH so we can work out how many atoms there are in the golf ball many atoms there are in the golf ball many atoms there are in the golf ball and we can store the coordinates in that and we can store the coordinates in that and we can store the coordinates in that golf ball down to that number but beyond golf ball down to that number but beyond golf ball down to that number but beyond that we can't MH let's make the golf that we can't MH let's make the golf that we can't MH let's make the golf ball ball ball smaller and and the this is where I smaller and and the this is where I smaller and and the this is where I think that we think that we get think that we think that we get think that we think that we get Randomness in quantum mechanics and some Randomness in quantum mechanics and some Randomness in quantum mechanics and some people say you can't get Randomness people say you can't get Randomness people say you can't get Randomness quantum mechanics deterministic but aha quantum mechanics deterministic but aha quantum mechanics deterministic but aha this is where this is where we realize this is where this is where we realize this is where this is where we realize that classical mechanics and quantum that classical mechanics and quantum that classical mechanics and quantum mechanics suffer from the same mechanics suffer from the same mechanics suffer from the same uncertainty principle and that is the uncertainty principle and that is the uncertainty principle and that is the inability to specify the the initial inability to specify the the initial inability to specify the the initial conditions to a precise enough degree to conditions to a precise enough degree to conditions to a precise enough degree to give you determinism the universe is give you determinism the universe is give you determinism the universe is intrinsically too big and that's why intrinsically too big and that's why intrinsically too big and that's why time exists it's non-deterministic time exists it's non-deterministic time exists it's non-deterministic looking back into the past you can look looking back into the past you can look looking back into the past you can look at the you can use logical um arguments at the you can use logical um arguments at the you can use logical um arguments because you can say was it true or false because you can say was it true or false because you can say was it true or false you already you already you already know but this is the fact we are unable know but this is the fact we are unable know but this is the fact we are unable to predict the future with the Precision to predict the future with the Precision to predict the future with the Precision is not evidence of lack of knowledge is not evidence of lack of knowledge is not evidence of lack of knowledge it's evidence the universe is generating it's evidence the universe is generating it's evidence the universe is generating new new new things okay so to you first of all things okay so to you first of all things okay so to you first of all quantum mechanics you can just say quantum mechanics you can just say quantum mechanics you can just say statistically what's going to happen statistically what's going to happen statistically what's going to happen when two golf balls hit each other when two golf balls hit each other when two golf balls hit each other statistically but that but but sure I statistically but that but but sure I statistically but that but but sure I can say statistic what's going to happen can say statistic what's going to happen can say statistic what's going to happen but then what they do happen yeah and but then what they do happen yeah and but then what they do happen yeah and and and you keep nesting it together you

and and you keep nesting it together you and and you keep nesting it together you can't I mean it goes almost back to look can't I mean it goes almost back to look can't I mean it goes almost back to look at look at look at um let's think about at look at look at um let's think about at look at look at um let's think about entropy in the universe so how do you entropy in the universe so how do you entropy in the universe so how do you what how do we how do we understand um what how do we how do we understand um what how do we how do we understand um entropy change well we could do the look entropy change well we could do the look entropy change well we could do the look at or process we can use the agic at or process we can use the agic at or process we can use the agic hypothesis um we can also have um um um hypothesis um we can also have um um um hypothesis um we can also have um um um we can also have the uh counterfactuals we can also have the uh counterfactuals we can also have the uh counterfactuals where we have all the different states where we have all the different states where we have all the different states and we could even put that in the and we could even put that in the and we could even put that in the Multiverse mhm right Multiverse mhm right Multiverse mhm right but both those are kind of they they're but both those are kind of they they're but both those are kind of they they're they're they're they're non-physical uh the Multiverse kind of non-physical uh the Multiverse kind of non-physical uh the Multiverse kind of collapses back to the same problem about collapses back to the same problem about collapses back to the same problem about the Precision so all that the what you the Precision so all that the what you the Precision so all that the what you if you accept you don't have to have if you accept you don't have to have if you accept you don't have to have true and false going forward into the true and false going forward into the true and false going forward into the future um the real numbers are real future um the real numbers are real future um the real numbers are real they're just they're just they're they're just they're just they're they're just they're just they're observables we're trying to see exactly observables we're trying to see exactly observables we're trying to see exactly where time being fundamental sneaks in where time being fundamental sneaks in where time being fundamental sneaks in and this difference between that the the and this difference between that the the and this difference between that the the the golf ball can't the golf ball can't the golf ball can't contain its own contain its own contain its own position perfectly position perfectly position perfectly precisely if how that leads to time precisely if how that leads to time precisely if how that leads to time needing to be fundamental let me I have needing to be fundamental let me I have needing to be fundamental let me I have what do you believe do you believe or do what do you believe do you believe or do what do you believe do you believe or do you accept you have free you accept you have free you accept you have free will yeah I think at this moment in time will yeah I think at this moment in time will yeah I think at this moment in time I believe that I have free will so then I believe that I have free will so then I believe that I have free will so then you are then you have to believe that you are then you have to believe that you are then you have to believe that time is fundamental

I understand that's a stat you've made I understand that's a stat you've made well no that we can logically follow well no that we can logically follow well no that we can logically follow because if you don't have free will so because if you don't have free will so because if you don't have free will so like if you're in a if you're in a like if you're in a if you're in a like if you're in a if you're in a universe that has no time the universe universe that has no time the universe universe that has no time the universe is deterministic if it's deterministic is deterministic if it's deterministic is deterministic if it's deterministic then you have no free will I I think the then you have no free will I I think the then you have no free will I I think the space of how much we don't know is so space of how much we don't know is so space of how much we don't know is so vast that saying the universe is vast that saying the universe is vast that saying the universe is deterministic and from that jumping deterministic and from that jumping deterministic and from that jumping there's no free will is just too there's no free will is just too there's no free will is just too difficult of a leap no I logically difficult of a leap no I logically difficult of a leap no I logically follows no no I I don't disagree it's follows no no I I don't disagree it's follows no no I I don't disagree it's not I'm not saying any I mean it's deep not I'm not saying any I mean it's deep not I'm not saying any I mean it's deep and it's important all I'm all I'm and it's important all I'm all I'm and it's important all I'm all I'm saying and it's the difference of it's saying and it's the difference of it's saying and it's the difference of it's actually different to what I've said actually different to what I've said actually different to what I've said before is that if you don't require before is that if you don't require before is that if you don't require platonistic platonistic platonistic mathematics and accepts that the mathematics and accepts that the mathematics and accepts that the non-determinism is how the universe non-determinism is how the universe non-determinism is how the universe looks and that gives us our creativity looks and that gives us our creativity looks and that gives us our creativity and the way the universe is getting and the way the universe is getting and the way the universe is getting novelty it's kind of really deeply novelty it's kind of really deeply novelty it's kind of really deeply important in assembly Theory because important in assembly Theory because important in assembly Theory because assembly Theory starts to actually give assembly Theory starts to actually give assembly Theory starts to actually give you a mechanism why you go from Bor ing you a mechanism why you go from Bor ing you a mechanism why you go from Bor ing time which is basically initial time which is basically initial time which is basically initial conditions specify everything to a conditions specify everything to a conditions specify everything to a mismatch in Creative time and I hope mismatch in Creative time and I hope mismatch in Creative time and I hope we'll do experiments I think it's really we'll do experiments I think it's really we'll do experiments I think it's really important to I would love to do an important to I would love to do an important to I would love to do an experiment that prove that time is experiment that prove that time is experiment that prove that time is fundamental and the universe is fundamental and the universe is fundamental and the universe is generating generating generating novelty um I don't know all the features novelty um I don't know all the features novelty um I don't know all the features of that experiment yet but by you know of that experiment yet but by you know of that experiment yet but by you know having these conversations openly and having these conversations openly and having these conversations openly and getting people to think about the getting people to think about the getting people to think about the problems in a new way better people problems in a new way better people problems in a new way better people more intelligent people with good more intelligent people with good more intelligent people with good mathematical backgrounds can say oh hey

mathematical backgrounds can say oh hey mathematical backgrounds can say oh hey I've got an idea i' would love to do an I've got an idea i' would love to do an I've got an idea i' would love to do an experiment that that shows that the experiment that that shows that the experiment that that shows that the Universe I mean universe is too too big Universe I mean universe is too too big Universe I mean universe is too too big for itself going forward in time and and for itself going forward in time and and for itself going forward in time and and I really you know this is why I I really I really you know this is why I I really I really you know this is why I I really hate the idea of the boltzman brain the hate the idea of the boltzman brain the hate the idea of the boltzman brain the boltzman brain makes me super kind of boltzman brain makes me super kind of boltzman brain makes me super kind of like you know everyone's having a free like you know everyone's having a free like you know everyone's having a free lunch it's like saying it's like let's lunch it's like saying it's like let's lunch it's like saying it's like let's break all the laws of physics so a break all the laws of physics so a break all the laws of physics so a boltzman brain is this idea that in a boltzman brain is this idea that in a boltzman brain is this idea that in a long enough universeal brain will just long enough universeal brain will just long enough universeal brain will just emerge in the universe as conscious emerge in the universe as conscious emerge in the universe as conscious without and that neglects the causal without and that neglects the causal without and that neglects the causal chain of evolution that required to chain of evolution that required to chain of evolution that required to produce that brain and this is where the produce that brain and this is where the produce that brain and this is where the computational argument really falls down computational argument really falls down computational argument really falls down because the computation is can say I can because the computation is can say I can because the computation is can say I can calculate the probability of a boltson calculate the probability of a boltson calculate the probability of a boltson brain and I can and they'll give you brain and I can and they'll give you brain and I can and they'll give you probability but I can calculate probability but I can calculate probability but I can calculate probability of bolman brain zero just probability of bolman brain zero just probability of bolman brain zero just because the the the space of because the the the space of because the the the space of possibilities is so large yeah it's like possibilities is so large yeah it's like possibilities is so large yeah it's like when we start falling ourselves with when we start falling ourselves with when we start falling ourselves with numbers that we can't actually measure numbers that we can't actually measure numbers that we can't actually measure and we can't ever conceive of I think it and we can't ever conceive of I think it and we can't ever conceive of I think it I think it it it it it doesn't give us a I think it it it it it doesn't give us a I think it it it it it doesn't give us a good explanation and I've become I want good explanation and I've become I want good explanation and I've become I want to explain why life is in the universe I to explain why life is in the universe I to explain why life is in the universe I think life is actually novelty minor no think life is actually novelty minor no think life is actually novelty minor no I mean life basically mines novelty I mean life basically mines novelty I mean life basically mines novelty almost from the future and makes it almost from the future and makes it almost from the future and makes it actualizes in the actualizes in the actualizes in the present okay life is a novelty present okay life is a novelty present okay life is a novelty minor uh from the future that is minor uh from the future that is minor uh from the future that is actualized in the present yep I think so novelty minor first of all

I think so novelty minor first of all novelty what's the origin of novelty novelty what's the origin of novelty novelty what's the origin of novelty when you go from boring time to creative when you go from boring time to creative when you go from boring time to creative time where is that is it as simple as as time where is that is it as simple as as time where is that is it as simple as as Randomness like you're referring to um I Randomness like you're referring to um I Randomness like you're referring to um I I am really struggling with Randomness I am really struggling with Randomness I am really struggling with Randomness because I had a really good argument because I had a really good argument because I had a really good argument with yashab about Randomness and he say with yashab about Randomness and he say with yashab about Randomness and he say said Randomness doesn't give you free said Randomness doesn't give you free said Randomness doesn't give you free will that's insane because You' just be will that's insane because You' just be will that's insane because You' just be random but I think and I think his right random but I think and I think his right random but I think and I think his right at that level yeah but I don't think we at that level yeah but I don't think we at that level yeah but I don't think we I don't think he is right on another I don't think he is right on another I don't think he is right on another level and it's not about Randomness it's level and it's not about Randomness it's level and it's not about Randomness it's about it's about about it's about about it's about constrained I'm going to sound like constrained I'm going to sound like constrained I'm going to sound like constrained opport I'm making this up as constrained opport I'm making this up as constrained opport I'm making this up as I go along so making this up constrained I go along so making this up constrained I go along so making this up constrained opportunity so what I mean is like so opportunity so what I mean is like so opportunity so what I mean is like so you have to have so that the novelty you have to have so that the novelty you have to have so that the novelty what is novelty you know this is why I what is novelty you know this is why I what is novelty you know this is why I think is a funny thing you ever want to think is a funny thing you ever want to think is a funny thing you ever want to discuss AI why I think everyone's kind discuss AI why I think everyone's kind discuss AI why I think everyone's kind of gone AI mad is that they're of gone AI mad is that they're of gone AI mad is that they're misunderstanding um novelty but let's misunderstanding um novelty but let's misunderstanding um novelty but let's think about novelty ask what is novelty think about novelty ask what is novelty think about novelty ask what is novelty so I think novelty is a genuinely new so I think novelty is a genuinely new so I think novelty is a genuinely new configuration that is not predicted by configuration that is not predicted by configuration that is not predicted by the P past right and that you discover the P past right and that you discover the P past right and that you discover in the present right and um that is in the present right and um that is in the present right and um that is truly different right now everyone says truly different right now everyone says truly different right now everyone says that some people say that novelty that some people say that novelty that some people say that novelty doesn't exist it's always with precedent doesn't exist it's always with precedent doesn't exist it's always with precedent I want to do experiments that show that I want to do experiments that show that I want to do experiments that show that that is not the case that is not the case that is not the case and it goes back to a question you asked and it goes back to a question you asked and it goes back to a question you asked me a a few moments ago which is where is me a a few moments ago which is where is me a a few moments ago which is where is the factory yeah right CU I think the

the factory yeah right CU I think the the factory yeah right CU I think the same mechanism that gives us a factory same mechanism that gives us a factory same mechanism that gives us a factory gives us novelty and I think that that gives us novelty and I think that that gives us novelty and I think that that is that is why I'm so deeply hung up on is that is why I'm so deeply hung up on is that is why I'm so deeply hung up on time I mean like of course I'm wrong but time I mean like of course I'm wrong but time I mean like of course I'm wrong but how wrong and I and I think that that how wrong and I and I think that that how wrong and I and I think that that life opens up that commentarial space in life opens up that commentarial space in life opens up that commentarial space in a way that the the our current laws of a way that the the our current laws of a way that the the our current laws of physics or the what has contrived in a physics or the what has contrived in a physics or the what has contrived in a deterministic initial condition Universe deterministic initial condition Universe deterministic initial condition Universe even with the get out of the Multiverse even with the get out of the Multiverse even with the get out of the Multiverse David deuts style which I love by the David deuts style which I love by the David deuts style which I love by the way but I don't think is way but I don't think is way but I don't think is correct um but it's it's it's kind it's correct um but it's it's it's kind it's correct um but it's it's it's kind it's really really really beautiful Multiverse the the David beautiful Multiverse the the David beautiful Multiverse the the David Deutsch's conception of the Multiverse Deutsch's conception of the Multiverse Deutsch's conception of the Multiverse is kind of like given um but I think is kind of like given um but I think is kind of like given um but I think that the problem with wave particle that the problem with wave particle that the problem with wave particle duality and quantum mechanics is not um duality and quantum mechanics is not um duality and quantum mechanics is not um about the Multiverse it's about about the Multiverse it's about about the Multiverse it's about understanding how determined the past is understanding how determined the past is understanding how determined the past is well I don't think just think that well I don't think just think that well I don't think just think that actually this is a a discussion I was actually this is a a discussion I was actually this is a a discussion I was having with Sarah about that right she having with Sarah about that right she having with Sarah about that right she was like oh I think we we' been debating was like oh I think we we' been debating was like oh I think we we' been debating this for a long time now um about how we this for a long time now um about how we this for a long time now um about how we how do we reconcile how do we reconcile how do we reconcile novelty determinism novelty determinism novelty determinism indeterminism so okay just to clarify indeterminism so okay just to clarify indeterminism so okay just to clarify you both you and Sarah think the you both you and Sarah think the you both you and Sarah think the universe is not universe is not universe is not deterministic uh I'm I won't speak for deterministic uh I'm I won't speak for deterministic uh I'm I won't speak for Sarah but I roughly I I think that the Universe I think the universe is Universe I think the universe is deterministic looking back in the P back

deterministic looking back in the P back deterministic looking back in the P back in the past right but undetermined going in the past right but undetermined going in the past right but undetermined going F going forward in the future so I'm F going forward in the future so I'm F going forward in the future so I'm kind of having my cake and eat it eating kind of having my cake and eat it eating kind of having my cake and eat it eating it here this is because I fundamentally it here this is because I fundamentally it here this is because I fundamentally don't understand Randomness right as don't understand Randomness right as don't understand Randomness right as Yasha told me or other people told me Yasha told me or other people told me Yasha told me or other people told me but if I adopt a new view now which but if I adopt a new view now which but if I adopt a new view now which um the new view is the universe is just um the new view is the universe is just um the new view is the universe is just non-deterministic but I'd like to refine non-deterministic but I'd like to refine non-deterministic but I'd like to refine that and say the universe appears that and say the universe appears that and say the universe appears deterministic going back in the past but deterministic going back in the past but deterministic going back in the past but it's but it's undetermined going forward it's but it's undetermined going forward it's but it's undetermined going forward in the future so how can we have a in the future so how can we have a in the future so how can we have a determinist a universe that has determinist a universe that has determinist a universe that has deterministically looking rules that's deterministically looking rules that's deterministically looking rules that's non-determined going in the future it's non-determined going in the future it's non-determined going in the future it's this breakdown in Precision in the this breakdown in Precision in the this breakdown in Precision in the initial conditions and we have to just initial conditions and we have to just initial conditions and we have to just stop using initial conditions and start stop using initial conditions and start stop using initial conditions and start looking at looking at looking at trajectories and how how um the trajectories and how how um the trajectories and how how um the commentor space behaves in expanding commentor space behaves in expanding commentor space behaves in expanding Universe in time and space and assembly Universe in time and space and assembly Universe in time and space and assembly Theory helps us quantify the transition Theory helps us quantify the transition Theory helps us quantify the transition to biology and biology appears to be to biology and biology appears to be to biology and biology appears to be novelty mining because it's making crazy novelty mining because it's making crazy novelty mining because it's making crazy stuff you know um that that we are stuff you know um that that we are stuff you know um that that we are unique to earth right there are objects unique to earth right there are objects unique to earth right there are objects on Earth that are unique to Earth they on Earth that are unique to Earth they on Earth that are unique to Earth they will not be found anywhere else because will not be found anywhere else because will not be found anywhere else because you can do the commentarial you can do the commentarial you can do the commentarial math uh what was that statement you made math uh what was that statement you made math uh what was that statement you made about life is novelty mining from the about life is novelty mining from the about life is novelty mining from the future yeah what's the what's what's the future yeah what's the what's what's the future yeah what's the what's what's the little element of time that you little element of time that you little element of time that you introducing that so what I'm kind of introducing that so what I'm kind of introducing that so what I'm kind of meaning is cuz the future is bigger than meaning is cuz the future is bigger than meaning is cuz the future is bigger than the present yeah in a deterministic the present yeah in a deterministic the present yeah in a deterministic universe how do you go from the how do universe how do you go from the how do universe how do you go from the how do how do the how do the states go from one

how do the how do the states go from one how do the how do the states go from one to another I mean there's a mismatch to another I mean there's a mismatch to another I mean there's a mismatch right yeah so so that must mean that you right yeah so so that must mean that you right yeah so so that must mean that you have a little bit of indeterminism have a little bit of indeterminism have a little bit of indeterminism whether that's Randomness or something whether that's Randomness or something whether that's Randomness or something else I don't understand I want to do else I don't understand I want to do else I don't understand I want to do experiments to formulate a theory to experiments to formulate a theory to experiments to formulate a theory to refine that as we go forward that might refine that as we go forward that might refine that as we go forward that might help us explain that and um and I think help us explain that and um and I think help us explain that and um and I think that's why I'm so um determined to try that's why I'm so um determined to try that's why I'm so um determined to try and crack and crack and crack the the non-life toli transition looking the the non-life toli transition looking the the non-life toli transition looking at at networks and molecules and that at at networks and molecules and that at at networks and molecules and that might help us think about it the the might help us think about it the the might help us think about it the the mechanism but certainly the future is mechanism but certainly the future is mechanism but certainly the future is bigger than the past in in my conception bigger than the past in in my conception bigger than the past in in my conception of the universe and some conception of of the universe and some conception of of the universe and some conception of the universe and by the way that's not the universe and by the way that's not the universe and by the way that's not obvious right that's where was just kind obvious right that's where was just kind obvious right that's where was just kind of the future being bigger than the of the future being bigger than the of the future being bigger than the past well that that's one statement and past well that that's one statement and past well that that's one statement and the statement that the universe is not the statement that the universe is not the statement that the universe is not big enough to contain the future is big enough to contain the future is big enough to contain the future is another statement yeah yeah yeah yeah I another statement yeah yeah yeah yeah I another statement yeah yeah yeah yeah I that one is a big one I that was a that one is a big one I that was a that one is a big one I that was a really big one I think so I think it but really big one I think so I think it but really big one I think so I think it but I think it's I think it's I think it's entirely because look we have the second entirely because look we have the second entirely because look we have the second law and right now I mean I'm we don't law and right now I mean I'm we don't law and right now I mean I'm we don't need the second law if the future's need the second law if the future's need the second law if the future's bigger than the past it follows bigger than the past it follows bigger than the past it follows naturally right so why are we naturally right so why are we naturally right so why are we retrofitting all these these sticking retrofitting all these these sticking retrofitting all these these sticking plasters onto our reality to hold on to plasters onto our reality to hold on to plasters onto our reality to hold on to a Timeless Universe yeah but that's a Timeless Universe yeah but that's a Timeless Universe yeah but that's because it's kind of difficult to because it's kind of difficult to because it's kind of difficult to imagine the universe imagine the universe imagine the universe that's they can't contain future but that's they can't contain future but that's they can't contain future but it's not really exciting it's very it's not really exciting it's very it's not really exciting it's very exciting but exciting but exciting but it's it's hard uh I mean we're we're at it's it's hard uh I mean we're we're at it's it's hard uh I mean we're we're at humans on Earth and we have a very kind

humans on Earth and we have a very kind humans on Earth and we have a very kind of four-dimensional conception of the of four-dimensional conception of the of four-dimensional conception of the world of three de plus time it's just world of three de plus time it's just world of three de plus time it's just hard to Inuit it a world where what does hard to Inuit it a world where what does hard to Inuit it a world where what does that even mean a universe that can't that even mean a universe that can't that even mean a universe that can't contain the contain the contain the future yeah it's kind of it's kind of future yeah it's kind of it's kind of future yeah it's kind of it's kind of crazy but obvious weird I mean I suppose crazy but obvious weird I mean I suppose crazy but obvious weird I mean I suppose it sounds obvious yeah if it's true but it sounds obvious yeah if it's true but it sounds obvious yeah if it's true but the nice thing is you can so what I I the nice thing is you can so what I I the nice thing is you can so what I I mean so the reason why assembly Theory mean so the reason why assembly Theory mean so the reason why assembly Theory turned me onto that was that you let's turned me onto that was that you let's turned me onto that was that you let's let's just start in the present and look let's just start in the present and look let's just start in the present and look at all the complex molecules and go at all the complex molecules and go at all the complex molecules and go backwards in time and understand how backwards in time and understand how backwards in time and understand how evolutionary processes go gave rise to evolutionary processes go gave rise to evolutionary processes go gave rise to them it's not in it's not at all obvious them it's not in it's not at all obvious them it's not in it's not at all obvious the taxo which is a complex one of the the taxo which is a complex one of the the taxo which is a complex one of the most complex natural products produced most complex natural products produced most complex natural products produced by biology was going to be invented by by biology was going to be invented by by biology was going to be invented by biology it's a accident you know taxo is biology it's a accident you know taxo is biology it's a accident you know taxo is unique to Earth there's no taxo unique to Earth there's no taxo unique to Earth there's no taxo elsewhere in the universe and tax all elsewhere in the universe and tax all elsewhere in the universe and tax all was was was not decided by the initial conditions it not decided by the initial conditions it not decided by the initial conditions it was decided by this kind of the this was decided by this kind of the this was decided by this kind of the this interplay between the so the past simply interplay between the so the past simply interplay between the so the past simply is embedded in the present it gives some is embedded in the present it gives some is embedded in the present it gives some features but why the past doesn't map to features but why the past doesn't map to features but why the past doesn't map to the Future one to one is because the the Future one to one is because the the Future one to one is because the universe is too big to contain itself universe is too big to contain itself universe is too big to contain itself that gives space for creativity novelty that gives space for creativity novelty that gives space for creativity novelty and and un some things which are and and un some things which are and and un some things which are unpredictable well okay so given that unpredictable well okay so given that unpredictable well okay so given that you're disrespecting the power of the you're disrespecting the power of the you're disrespecting the power of the initial conditions uh let me ask you

initial conditions uh let me ask you initial conditions uh let me ask you about so how do you explain that about so how do you explain that about so how do you explain that cellometer are able to produce such cellometer are able to produce such cellometer are able to produce such incredible complexity given just basic incredible complexity given just basic incredible complexity given just basic rules and basic initial conditions I rules and basic initial conditions I rules and basic initial conditions I think that that you you this falls into think that that you you this falls into think that that you you this falls into the Brower um Hilbert trap mhm so how the Brower um Hilbert trap mhm so how the Brower um Hilbert trap mhm so how would you get a autometer produce would you get a autometer produce would you get a autometer produce complexity you have a computer you complexity you have a computer you complexity you have a computer you generate a display and you map the generate a display and you map the generate a display and you map the change of that in time mhm there are change of that in time mhm there are change of that in time mhm there are some Casa repeat like functions like some Casa repeat like functions like some Casa repeat like functions like it's fascinating to me that for pi there it's fascinating to me that for pi there it's fascinating to me that for pi there is a there is a Formula where you can go is a there is a Formula where you can go is a there is a Formula where you can go to the the millionth decimal place of Pi to the the millionth decimal place of Pi to the the millionth decimal place of Pi and read out the the the number without and read out the the the number without and read out the the the number without having to go there but there are some having to go there but there are some having to go there but there are some numbers where you can't do that you have numbers where you can't do that you have numbers where you can't do that you have to just crank through mhm this um to just crank through mhm this um to just crank through mhm this um whether it's wol framan computational whether it's wol framan computational whether it's wol framan computational reducibility or some other thing might reducibility or some other thing might reducibility or some other thing might doesn't matter but these doesn't matter but these doesn't matter but these Casa that complexity is that just Casa that complexity is that just Casa that complexity is that just complexity or a number that is basically complexity or a number that is basically complexity or a number that is basically you're mining that number in time mhm um you're mining that number in time mhm um you're mining that number in time mhm um you know is that just a display screen you know is that just a display screen you know is that just a display screen for that number that function well can't for that number that function well can't for that number that function well can't you say the same thing about the you say the same thing about the you say the same thing about the complexity on Earth then no because the complexity on Earth then no because the complexity on Earth then no because the complexity on Earth um has a copy number complexity on Earth um has a copy number complexity on Earth um has a copy number and an assembly index associated with and an assembly index associated with and an assembly index associated with that that CA is just a number that that CA is just a number that that CA is just a number running you don't think it has a copy running you don't think it has a copy running you don't think it has a copy number wait wait a minute well it it number wait wait a minute well it it number wait wait a minute well it it does in the human where where we're does in the human where where we're does in the human where where we're looking at humans producing different looking at humans producing different looking at humans producing different rules but then it's nested on selection rules but then it's nested on selection rules but then it's nested on selection so those Casa are produced by selection so those Casa are produced by selection so those Casa are produced by selection yeah I mean the ca is such a a

yeah I mean the ca is such a a yeah I mean the ca is such a a fascinating pseudo complexity generator fascinating pseudo complexity generator fascinating pseudo complexity generator what I would love to do is understand um what I would love to do is understand um what I would love to do is understand um quantify the degree of surprise in a CA quantify the degree of surprise in a CA quantify the degree of surprise in a CA R it long enough MH but what that I R it long enough MH but what that I R it long enough MH but what that I guess that means is we have to guess that means is we have to guess that means is we have to instantiate we have to have a number of instantiate we have to have a number of instantiate we have to have a number of experiments where we're generating experiments where we're generating experiments where we're generating different rules and running them time different rules and running them time different rules and running them time steps but oh got it ca are mining steps but oh got it ca are mining steps but oh got it ca are mining novelty m in the F from the you know in novelty m in the F from the you know in novelty m in the F from the you know in the future by iteration right and you're the future by iteration right and you're the future by iteration right and you're like oh that's great that's great you like oh that's great that's great you like oh that's great that's great you didn't predict it some rules you can didn't predict it some rules you can didn't predict it some rules you can predict the what's going to happen other predict the what's going to happen other predict the what's going to happen other rules you can't so for me if anything CA rules you can't so for me if anything CA rules you can't so for me if anything CA are evidence that the the universe is are evidence that the the universe is are evidence that the the universe is too big to contain itself because too big to contain itself because too big to contain itself because otherwise you'd know what the rules are otherwise you'd know what the rules are otherwise you'd know what the rules are going to do forever going to do forever going to do forever more right I guess you were saying that more right I guess you were saying that more right I guess you were saying that the the the physicist saying that all you need is physicist saying that all you need is physicist saying that all you need is initial conditions and the rules of initial conditions and the rules of initial conditions and the rules of physics uh is somehow missing the bigger physics uh is somehow missing the bigger physics uh is somehow missing the bigger picture and yeah and you know if you picture and yeah and you know if you picture and yeah and you know if you look at CA all you need is the initial look at CA all you need is the initial look at CA all you need is the initial condition and the and the rules and then condition and the and the rules and then condition and the and the rules and then run the thing you run the thing you run the thing you need three things you need the initial need three things you need the initial need three things you need the initial conditions you need the rules and you conditions you need the rules and you conditions you need the rules and you need time iteration to mine it out need time iteration to mine it out need time iteration to mine it out without the coordinate you can't get it without the coordinate you can't get it without the coordinate you can't get it out sure and that's that that to use out sure and that's that that to use out sure and that's that that to use fundamental and you can't predict it fundamental and you can't predict it fundamental and you can't predict it from initial conditions yeah if you from initial conditions yeah if you from initial conditions yeah if you could then could then could then it' be fine and that time is res the it' be fine and that time is res the it' be fine and that time is res the foundation of uh the history the memory foundation of uh the history the memory foundation of uh the history the memory of each the things that created it has of each the things that created it has of each the things that created it has to have that memory of all the things to have that memory of all the things to have that memory of all the things that led up to it I think it's yeah you

that led up to it I think it's yeah you that led up to it I think it's yeah you have to have the resource yeah because have to have the resource yeah because have to have the resource yeah because time is a time is a time is a fundamental resource and and um yeah I'm fundamental resource and and um yeah I'm fundamental resource and and um yeah I'm becoming I think I had a becoming I think I had a becoming I think I had a major major major um uh epip about Randomness but I keep um uh epip about Randomness but I keep um uh epip about Randomness but I keep doing that every two days and then it doing that every two days and then it doing that every two days and then it goes away again it's random you're goes away again it's random you're goes away again it's random you're you're a Time you're a Time you're a Time fundamentalist you should be as well if fundamentalist you should be as well if fundamentalist you should be as well if you believe in Free Will yeah the only you believe in Free Will yeah the only you believe in Free Will yeah the only conclusion is there is time is conclusion is there is time is conclusion is there is time is fundamental otherwise you cannot have fundamental otherwise you cannot have fundamental otherwise you cannot have free will it logically free will it logically free will it logically follows follows follows well my my the foundation of my belief well my my the foundation of my belief well my my the foundation of my belief in Free Will is just in Free Will is just in Free Will is just uh is is uh observation uh is is uh observation uh is is uh observation driven but that's I think if you use driven but that's I think if you use driven but that's I think if you use logic logic logic it's it's it's like logically it seems like the like logically it seems like the like logically it seems like the universe is deterministic looking universe is deterministic looking universe is deterministic looking backwards in time and that's correct backwards in time and that's correct backwards in time and that's correct universe is and then everything else is universe is and then everything else is universe is and then everything else is is a is is a kind of leap it requires a is a is is a kind of leap it requires a is a is is a kind of leap it requires a leap I mean I I I think that leap I mean I I I think that leap I mean I I I think that um it's kind of this is what I think um it's kind of this is what I think um it's kind of this is what I think machine learning is going to provide a machine learning is going to provide a machine learning is going to provide a big a chunk of that right because um it big a chunk of that right because um it big a chunk of that right because um it to help us explain this so the way I'd to help us explain this so the way I'd to help us explain this so the way I'd say if you take that's interesting why say if you take that's interesting why say if you take that's interesting why well let's let's let's just um my well let's let's let's just um my well let's let's let's just um my favorite one one is because I'm I'm the favorite one one is because I'm I'm the favorite one one is because I'm I'm the AI doomers are driving me mad and a the AI doomers are driving me mad and a the AI doomers are driving me mad and a the fact that we don't have any intelligence fact that we don't have any intelligence fact that we don't have any intelligence yet I call AI autonomous informatics yet I call AI autonomous informatics yet I call AI autonomous informatics just to make people grumpy yeah um and

just to make people grumpy yeah um and just to make people grumpy yeah um and you're saying we're quite far away from you're saying we're quite far away from you're saying we're quite far away from AGI I think that we have no conception AGI I think that we have no conception AGI I think that we have no conception of intelligence and I think that we of intelligence and I think that we of intelligence and I think that we don't understand how the human brain don't understand how the human brain don't understand how the human brain does what it does I think that we are does what it does I think that we are does what it does I think that we are neurosciences making great Advan but I neurosciences making great Advan but I neurosciences making great Advan but I think that we have no idea about AGI so think that we have no idea about AGI so think that we have no idea about AGI so I am a technological I guess Optimist I I am a technological I guess Optimist I I am a technological I guess Optimist I believe we should do everything the believe we should do everything the believe we should do everything the whole regulation of AI is nonsensical I whole regulation of AI is nonsensical I whole regulation of AI is nonsensical I mean why would you regulate XL other mean why would you regulate XL other mean why would you regulate XL other than the fact that clippy should come than the fact that clippy should come than the fact that clippy should come back and I love XL 97 because we can back and I love XL 97 because we can back and I love XL 97 because we can play um you know we can do the flight play um you know we can do the flight play um you know we can do the flight flight simulator uh sorry in Excel yeah flight simulator uh sorry in Excel yeah flight simulator uh sorry in Excel yeah have you not played the flight simulator have you not played the flight simulator have you not played the flight simulator in Excel 97 yeah what does that look in Excel 97 yeah what does that look in Excel 97 yeah what does that look like it's like wire fr game very very like it's like wire fr game very very like it's like wire fr game very very basic but basically I think it's x0 y0 basic but basically I think it's x0 y0 basic but basically I think it's x0 y0 shift and it opens up and you can play shift and it opens up and you can play shift and it opens up and you can play the fight simulator oh wow wait wait is the fight simulator oh wow wait wait is the fight simulator oh wow wait wait is he using Excel Excel Excel 97 okay I he using Excel Excel Excel 97 okay I he using Excel Excel Excel 97 okay I resurrected it the other day and saw resurrected it the other day and saw resurrected it the other day and saw clippy again for the first time in a clippy again for the first time in a clippy again for the first time in a long time well clippy is definitely long time well clippy is definitely long time well clippy is definitely coming back but you're saying we don't coming back but you're saying we don't coming back but you're saying we don't have a a great understanding what is have a a great understanding what is have a a great understanding what is intelligence what is the intelligence I intelligence what is the intelligence I intelligence what is the intelligence I am very frustrated underpinning the am very frustrated underpinning the am very frustrated underpinning the human mind I'm very frustrated by the human mind I'm very frustrated by the human mind I'm very frustrated by the way that um we're AI dooming right now way that um we're AI dooming right now way that um we're AI dooming right now and people are bestowing some kind of and people are bestowing some kind of and people are bestowing some kind of magic now um let's go back a bit so you magic now um let's go back a bit so you magic now um let's go back a bit so you said about AGI are we far away from AGI said about AGI are we far away from AGI said about AGI are we far away from AGI yes I do not think we're going to get to yes I do not think we're going to get to yes I do not think we're going to get to AGI anytime soon I've seen no evidence AGI anytime soon I've seen no evidence AGI anytime soon I've seen no evidence of it and the AI Doom scenario is

of it and the AI Doom scenario is of it and the AI Doom scenario is nonsensical in the extreme yeah um and nonsensical in the extreme yeah um and nonsensical in the extreme yeah um and the reason why I think it's nonsensical the reason why I think it's nonsensical the reason why I think it's nonsensical but it's not non but it's not non but it's not non so I don't think there isn't things we so I don't think there isn't things we so I don't think there isn't things we should do and be very worried about should do and be very worried about should do and be very worried about right I mean there are things we need to right I mean there are things we need to right I mean there are things we need to worry about right now what AI are doing worry about right now what AI are doing worry about right now what AI are doing whether it's fake data fake users right whether it's fake data fake users right whether it's fake data fake users right I want authentic people or authentic uh I want authentic people or authentic uh I want authentic people or authentic uh um data I don't want everything to be um data I don't want everything to be um data I don't want everything to be faked and I think it's a really big faked and I think it's a really big faked and I think it's a really big problem and I'm absolutely want to go on problem and I'm absolutely want to go on problem and I'm absolutely want to go on the record to say I really worry about the record to say I really worry about the record to say I really worry about that what I'm not worried about is that that what I'm not worried about is that that what I'm not worried about is that some fictitious entity is going to turn some fictitious entity is going to turn some fictitious entity is going to turn us all to paperclips or detonate nuclear us all to paperclips or detonate nuclear us all to paperclips or detonate nuclear bombs I don't bombs I don't bombs I don't know maybe I don't know anything you know maybe I don't know anything you know maybe I don't know anything you can't think of why is this is a and I'll can't think of why is this is a and I'll can't think of why is this is a and I'll I'll take a very simple series of I'll take a very simple series of I'll take a very simple series of logical logical logical arguments and and this is the the the AI arguments and and this is the the the AI arguments and and this is the the the AI doomers are have not had the correct and doomers are have not had the correct and doomers are have not had the correct and this is had not had the correct they do this is had not had the correct they do this is had not had the correct they do not have the correct not have the correct not have the correct epistemology they do not understand what epistemology they do not understand what epistemology they do not understand what knowledge is and until we understand knowledge is and until we understand knowledge is and until we understand what knowledge is they're not going to what knowledge is they're not going to what knowledge is they're not going to get anywhere because they're applying get anywhere because they're applying get anywhere because they're applying things falsely so let me give you a very things falsely so let me give you a very things falsely so let me give you a very simple argument people talk about the simple argument people talk about the simple argument people talk about the probability P Doom probability P Doom probability P Doom AI um I can we can work out the AI um I can we can work out the AI um I can we can work out the probability of a asteroid hitting the probability of a asteroid hitting the probability of a asteroid hitting the planet why because it's happened before planet why because it's happened before planet why because it's happened before we know the mechanism we know that we know the mechanism we know that we know the mechanism we know that there's a gravity well or that you know there's a gravity well or that you know there's a gravity well or that you know space time is bent and stuff Falls in we space time is bent and stuff Falls in we space time is bent and stuff Falls in we don't know the probability of AGI don't know the probability of AGI don't know the probability of AGI because we have no mechanism so let me because we have no mechanism so let me because we have no mechanism so let me give you the another one which is like give you the another one which is like give you the another one which is like I'm really worried about AG what's ag ag

I'm really worried about AG what's ag ag I'm really worried about AG what's ag ag is anti-gravity one day we could wake up is anti-gravity one day we could wake up is anti-gravity one day we could wake up and anti-gravity you know it's and anti-gravity you know it's and anti-gravity you know it's discovered we're all going to die the discovered we're all going to die the discovered we're all going to die the atmosphere is going to float away we're atmosphere is going to float away we're atmosphere is going to float away we're going to float away we're all doomed going to float away we're all doomed going to float away we're all doomed what is the probability of AG we don't what is the probability of AG we don't what is the probability of AG we don't know because there's no NE mechanism for know because there's no NE mechanism for know because there's no NE mechanism for AG do we worry about it no and I don't AG do we worry about it no and I don't AG do we worry about it no and I don't understand the current um reason for understand the current um reason for understand the current um reason for these for the for certain people in these for the for certain people in these for the for certain people in certain areas to be generating this certain areas to be generating this certain areas to be generating this nonsense I think they're not doing it nonsense I think they're not doing it nonsense I think they're not doing it maliciously I think we're observing the maliciously I think we're observing the maliciously I think we're observing the emergence of new religions how religions emergence of new religions how religions emergence of new religions how religions come because religions are about kind of come because religions are about kind of come because religions are about kind of some controls so you got The Optimist some controls so you got The Optimist some controls so you got The Optimist saying AI is going to cure us all and AI saying AI is going to cure us all and AI saying AI is going to cure us all and AI is going to kill us all what's the is going to kill us all what's the is going to kill us all what's the reality well we don't have ai we have reality well we don't have ai we have reality well we don't have ai we have really powerful machine learning tools really powerful machine learning tools really powerful machine learning tools and they will allow us to do interesting and they will allow us to do interesting and they will allow us to do interesting things and we need to be careful about things and we need to be careful about things and we need to be careful about how we use those tools in terms of how we use those tools in terms of how we use those tools in terms of manipulating human beings and faking manipulating human beings and faking manipulating human beings and faking stuff right all right uh well let me let stuff right all right uh well let me let stuff right all right uh well let me let me try just sort of Steal man theer's me try just sort of Steal man theer's me try just sort of Steal man theer's argument and actually I don't know our argument and actually I don't know our argument and actually I don't know our AI dumers in the owski camp saying it's AI dumers in the owski camp saying it's AI dumers in the owski camp saying it's definitely going to kill us because definitely going to kill us because definitely going to kill us because there's a spectrum 95% I think is the there's a spectrum 95% I think is the there's a spectrum 95% I think is the limit yeah 95% plus that's no not not limit yeah 95% plus that's no not not limit yeah 95% plus that's no not not plus I think I don't know I was seeing plus I think I don't know I was seeing plus I think I don't know I was seeing on Twitter today various things but I on Twitter today various things but I on Twitter today various things but I think yski is owski is at 95% but to think yski is owski is at 95% but to think yski is owski is at 95% but to belong to the AI dumer Club is there a belong to the AI dumer Club is there a belong to the AI dumer Club is there a threshold I don't know what the threshold I don't know what the threshold I don't know what the membership maybe and what are the fees I membership maybe and what are the fees I membership maybe and what are the fees I think well I saw I think Scott arenson think well I saw I think Scott arenson think well I saw I think Scott arenson like I was quite surprised had put two I

like I was quite surprised had put two I like I was quite surprised had put two I I saw this online so it could be wrong I saw this online so it could be wrong I saw this online so it could be wrong so sorry if it's wrong um says 2% but so sorry if it's wrong um says 2% but so sorry if it's wrong um says 2% but the thing is if you were to go if you if the thing is if you were to go if you if the thing is if you were to go if you if someone said there's a 2% chance you're someone said there's a 2% chance you're someone said there's a 2% chance you're going to die going into the lift would going to die going into the lift would going to die going into the lift would you go into the lift in the elevator for you go into the lift in the elevator for you go into the lift in the elevator for the elev American English speaking the elev American English speaking the elev American English speaking audience uh well no not for the elevator audience uh well no not for the elevator audience uh well no not for the elevator so I would say anyone higher than 2% I so I would say anyone higher than 2% I so I would say anyone higher than 2% I mean like I I mean I think there's a 0% mean like I I mean I think there's a 0% mean like I I mean I think there's a 0% chance of AGI team zero just to push chance of AGI team zero just to push chance of AGI team zero just to push back on the on the back on the on the back on the on the argument we're at end of zero on the AGI argument we're at end of zero on the AGI argument we're at end of zero on the AGI we can see on Earth that there's we can see on Earth that there's we can see on Earth that there's increasing levels of intelligence of increasing levels of intelligence of increasing levels of intelligence of organisms we can see what humans with organisms we can see what humans with organisms we can see what humans with extra intelligence were able to do to extra intelligence were able to do to extra intelligence were able to do to the other species so the other species so the other species so that is uh a lot of that is uh a lot of that is uh a lot of samples of data what a delta in samples of data what a delta in samples of data what a delta in intelligence gives you when you have an intelligence gives you when you have an intelligence gives you when you have an increase in intelligence how you're able increase in intelligence how you're able increase in intelligence how you're able to dominate a species on Earth and so to dominate a species on Earth and so to dominate a species on Earth and so the idea there is that if you the idea there is that if you the idea there is that if you have a a being that's 10x smarter than have a a being that's 10x smarter than have a a being that's 10x smarter than humans we're not going to be able to humans we're not going to be able to humans we're not going to be able to predict what that's going to mhm what predict what that's going to mhm what predict what that's going to mhm what that being is going to be able to do that being is going to be able to do that being is going to be able to do especially if it has the power to hurt especially if it has the power to hurt especially if it has the power to hurt humans which you can imagine a lot of humans which you can imagine a lot of humans which you can imagine a lot of trajectories in which the more benefit trajectories in which the more benefit trajectories in which the more benefit AI systems give the more control we give AI systems give the more control we give AI systems give the more control we give to those AI systems over our power grid to those AI systems over our power grid to those AI systems over our power grid over uh our nuclear weapons or weapons over uh our nuclear weapons or weapons over uh our nuclear weapons or weapons of any sort and then it's hard to know

of any sort and then it's hard to know of any sort and then it's hard to know what a Ultra intelligence system would what a Ultra intelligence system would what a Ultra intelligence system would be able to do in that case you don't be able to do in that case you don't be able to do in that case you don't find that convincing I think is I would find that convincing I think is I would find that convincing I think is I would I would fail that argument 100% here's a I would fail that argument 100% here's a I would fail that argument 100% here's a number of reasons to fail it on first of number of reasons to fail it on first of number of reasons to fail it on first of all um we don't know where the intention all um we don't know where the intention all um we don't know where the intention comes from the problem is that people comes from the problem is that people comes from the problem is that people think they keep you know watching all think they keep you know watching all think they keep you know watching all the husters online with the prompt the husters online with the prompt the husters online with the prompt engineering and all this stuff where engineering and all this stuff where engineering and all this stuff where when I talk to a typical AI computer when I talk to a typical AI computer when I talk to a typical AI computer scientist they keep talking about the AI scientist they keep talking about the AI scientist they keep talking about the AI is having some kind of decision- making is having some kind of decision- making is having some kind of decision- making ability that is a category ability that is a category ability that is a category error the decision making ability comes error the decision making ability comes error the decision making ability comes from human beings beings we have no from human beings beings we have no from human beings beings we have no understanding of how humans make understanding of how humans make understanding of how humans make decision we've just been discussing Free decision we've just been discussing Free decision we've just been discussing Free Will for the last half an hour right we Will for the last half an hour right we Will for the last half an hour right we don't even know what that is so the don't even know what that is so the don't even know what that is so the intention I totally agree with you intention I totally agree with you intention I totally agree with you people who intend to do bad things can people who intend to do bad things can people who intend to do bad things can do bad things and we should not let that do bad things and we should not let that do bad things and we should not let that risk go that's totally here and now I'm risk go that's totally here and now I'm risk go that's totally here and now I'm do not want that to happen and I'm happy do not want that to happen and I'm happy do not want that to happen and I'm happy to be regulated to make sure that to be regulated to make sure that to be regulated to make sure that systems I generate whether they're like systems I generate whether they're like systems I generate whether they're like computer systems or you know I'm working computer systems or you know I'm working computer systems or you know I'm working on a new project called X called cam on a new project called X called cam on a new project called X called cam mackina nice well done yeah yeah which mackina nice well done yeah yeah which mackina nice well done yeah yeah which is basically is basically is basically a um for people who don't understand the a um for people who don't understand the a um for people who don't understand the point that xar is a great uh film about point that xar is a great uh film about point that xar is a great uh film about I guess AGI embodied and K is the I guess AGI embodied and K is the I guess AGI embodied and K is the chemistry version of that and I only chemistry version of that and I only chemistry version of that and I only know one way to embody intelligence know one way to embody intelligence know one way to embody intelligence that's in chemistry and human brains so that's in chemistry and human brains so that's in chemistry and human brains so category era number one is agen they category era number one is agen they category era number one is agen they have agency C era number two is saying

have agency C era number two is saying have agency C era number two is saying that assuming that anything we make is that assuming that anything we make is that assuming that anything we make is going to be more intelligent now you going to be more intelligent now you going to be more intelligent now you didn't say super intelligent I'll put didn't say super intelligent I'll put didn't say super intelligent I'll put the words into our mouths here super the words into our mouths here super the words into our mouths here super intelligent that I think that um there intelligent that I think that um there intelligent that I think that um there is is is no no reason to expect that we are going no no reason to expect that we are going no no reason to expect that we are going to make systems that are more to make systems that are more to make systems that are more intelligent more capable you know when intelligent more capable you know when intelligent more capable you know when people play chess computers they don't people play chess computers they don't people play chess computers they don't expect to win now right they just the expect to win now right they just the expect to win now right they just the chess computer is very good at chess chess computer is very good at chess chess computer is very good at chess that doesn't mean it's super intelligent that doesn't mean it's super intelligent that doesn't mean it's super intelligent so I think that super intelligence I so I think that super intelligence I so I think that super intelligence I mean I I think even Nick Bostrom is is mean I I think even Nick Bostrom is is mean I I think even Nick Bostrom is is pulling back on this now because he pulling back on this now because he pulling back on this now because he invented this so I see this a lot when invented this so I see this a lot when invented this so I see this a lot when did see first happen Eric Drexler nanot did see first happen Eric Drexler nanot did see first happen Eric Drexler nanot technology atomically precise ma technology atomically precise ma technology atomically precise ma machines he came up with a world where machines he came up with a world where machines he came up with a world where we had these atom cogs everywhere they we had these atom cogs everywhere they we had these atom cogs everywhere they were going to we're going to make self were going to we're going to make self were going to we're going to make self replicating Nanobots not possible why replicating Nanobots not possible why replicating Nanobots not possible why because there's no resources to build because there's no resources to build because there's no resources to build these self-replicating Nanobots you these self-replicating Nanobots you these self-replicating Nanobots you can't get the Precision it doesn't work can't get the Precision it doesn't work can't get the Precision it doesn't work it was a major category error in Def it was a major category error in Def it was a major category error in Def taking engineering principles down to taking engineering principles down to taking engineering principles down to the molecular level the only functioning the molecular level the only functioning the molecular level the only functioning molecular technology we know sorry the molecular technology we know sorry the molecular technology we know sorry the only functioning nanomolecular only functioning nanomolecular only functioning nanomolecular technology we know produced by Evolution technology we know produced by Evolution technology we know produced by Evolution there so now let's go forward to AGI there so now let's go forward to AGI there so now let's go forward to AGI what is Agi we don't know it's super it what is Agi we don't know it's super it what is Agi we don't know it's super it can do this or can humans can't think can do this or can humans can't think can do this or can humans can't think that I would argue the only agis that that I would argue the only agis that that I would argue the only agis that exist in the universe produced by exist in the universe produced by exist in the universe produced by Evolution and sure we may be to make our Evolution and sure we may be to make our Evolution and sure we may be to make our working memory better we might be be working memory better we might be be working memory better we might be be able to do more things the human brain

able to do more things the human brain able to do more things the human brain is the most compact Computing unit in is the most compact Computing unit in is the most compact Computing unit in the Universe uses 20 watts it's a uses a the Universe uses 20 watts it's a uses a the Universe uses 20 watts it's a uses a really limited volume it's not like a really limited volume it's not like a really limited volume it's not like a chat GPT cluster which has to have chat GPT cluster which has to have chat GPT cluster which has to have thousands of whatts model that's thousands of whatts model that's thousands of whatts model that's generated and has to be corrected by generated and has to be corrected by generated and has to be corrected by human beings you are autonomous and human beings you are autonomous and human beings you are autonomous and embodied intelligence so I think that embodied intelligence so I think that embodied intelligence so I think that there are so many levels that we're there are so many levels that we're there are so many levels that we're missing out we're just kind of went oh missing out we're just kind of went oh missing out we're just kind of went oh we've discovered fire oh gosh the we've discovered fire oh gosh the we've discovered fire oh gosh the planet's just going to burn one day planet's just going to burn one day planet's just going to burn one day randomly I mean I just don't understand randomly I mean I just don't understand randomly I mean I just don't understand that leap there are bigger problems we that leap there are bigger problems we that leap there are bigger problems we need to worry about so what is the need to worry about so what is the need to worry about so what is the motivation why are these people let's motivation why are these people let's motivation why are these people let's assume they have their Earnest have this assume they have their Earnest have this assume they have their Earnest have this conviction well I think it's just it's conviction well I think it's just it's conviction well I think it's just it's kind of they're making leaps that kind of they're making leaps that kind of they're making leaps that they're trapped in a virtual reality they're trapped in a virtual reality they're trapped in a virtual reality that isn't reality well I mean I can that isn't reality well I mean I can that isn't reality well I mean I can continue a set of arguments here but continue a set of arguments here but continue a set of arguments here but also it is true that ideologies that also it is true that ideologies that also it is true that ideologies that fear Monger are fear Monger are fear Monger are dangerous because you can then use it to dangerous because you can then use it to dangerous because you can then use it to control to to regulate in a way that um control to to regulate in a way that um control to to regulate in a way that um halts progress to control people and to halts progress to control people and to halts progress to control people and to uh to cancel people all that kind of uh to cancel people all that kind of uh to cancel people all that kind of stuff so you have to be careful because stuff so you have to be careful because stuff so you have to be careful because you reason ultimately wins right but you reason ultimately wins right but you reason ultimately wins right but there there is a lot of concerns with there there is a lot of concerns with there there is a lot of concerns with superintelligent systems very capable superintelligent systems very capable superintelligent systems very capable systems when you I think when I when you systems when you I think when I when you systems when you I think when I when you hear the word super intelligent you're hear the word super intelligent you're hear the word super intelligent you're hearing like it's smarter than humans in hearing like it's smarter than humans in hearing like it's smarter than humans in every way that humans are smart but the

every way that humans are smart but the every way that humans are smart but the paperclip manufacturing system doesn't paperclip manufacturing system doesn't paperclip manufacturing system doesn't need to be smart in every way just need need to be smart in every way just need need to be smart in every way just need to be smart in set of specific ways and to be smart in set of specific ways and to be smart in set of specific ways and the more uh capable the a systems become the more uh capable the a systems become the more uh capable the a systems become the more you could see us giving them the more you could see us giving them the more you could see us giving them control over like I said our power grid control over like I said our power grid control over like I said our power grid a lot of aspects of human life and that a lot of aspects of human life and that a lot of aspects of human life and that means they will be able to do more and means they will be able to do more and means they will be able to do more and more damage when there's unintended more damage when there's unintended more damage when there's unintended consequences that come to life I I think consequences that come to life I I think consequences that come to life I I think that that's right that the unintended that that's right that the unintended that that's right that the unintended consequences we have to think about and consequences we have to think about and consequences we have to think about and i' that I fully I fully agree with but i' that I fully I fully agree with but i' that I fully I fully agree with but let's go back a bit sentient I mean I'm let's go back a bit sentient I mean I'm let's go back a bit sentient I mean I'm again I'm far away from my comfort zone again I'm far away from my comfort zone again I'm far away from my comfort zone and all this stuff but hey let's talk and all this stuff but hey let's talk and all this stuff but hey let's talk about it cuz I give myself a about it cuz I give myself a about it cuz I give myself a qualification yeah we're both qualified qualification yeah we're both qualified qualification yeah we're both qualified in sentients I think yeah so as much as in sentients I think yeah so as much as in sentients I think yeah so as much as anyone else I think the paperclip anyone else I think the paperclip anyone else I think the paperclip scenario is just such a poor one because scenario is just such a poor one because scenario is just such a poor one because let's think about how that would happen let's think about how that would happen let's think about how that would happen um and also let's think about we are um and also let's think about we are um and also let's think about we are being so um unrealistic about how much being so um unrealistic about how much being so um unrealistic about how much of the Earth's surface we have command of the Earth's surface we have command of the Earth's surface we have command deared mhm you know for paper M clip deared mhm you know for paper M clip deared mhm you know for paper M clip manufacturing to really happen I mean do manufacturing to really happen I mean do manufacturing to really happen I mean do the math it's like it's it's not going the math it's like it's it's not going the math it's like it's it's not going to happen there's not enough energy to happen there's not enough energy to happen there's not enough energy there's not enough resource where they there's not enough resource where they there's not enough resource where they all going to come from I think that what all going to come from I think that what all going to come from I think that what happens in evolution is happens in evolution is happens in evolution is really why is why has a killer virus not really why is why has a killer virus not really why is why has a killer virus not killed out all of not killed all life on killed out all of not killed all life on killed out all of not killed all life on Earth what happens is sure super killer Earth what happens is sure super killer Earth what happens is sure super killer viruses that kill the ribosome have viruses that kill the ribosome have viruses that kill the ribosome have emerged but you know what happens they emerged but you know what happens they emerged but you know what happens they nuke a small space because they can't nuke a small space because they can't nuke a small space because they can't propagate they all die so there's this

propagate they all die so there's this propagate they all die so there's this interplay between evolution and interplay between evolution and interplay between evolution and propagation right and death and so in propagation right and death and so in propagation right and death and so in evolution it you don't think it's evolution it you don't think it's evolution it you don't think it's possible to engineer for example sorry possible to engineer for example sorry possible to engineer for example sorry to interrupt but like a perfect virus no to interrupt but like a perfect virus no to interrupt but like a perfect virus no that's deadly enough no like nonsensical that's deadly enough no like nonsensical that's deadly enough no like nonsensical okay I think that just wouldn't again it okay I think that just wouldn't again it okay I think that just wouldn't again it wouldn't work it was too deadly it would wouldn't work it was too deadly it would wouldn't work it was too deadly it would just kill the radius and not replicate just kill the radius and not replicate just kill the radius and not replicate it yeah I mean but you don't think it's it yeah I mean but you don't think it's it yeah I mean but you don't think it's possible to get a I mean if you were possible to get a I mean if you were possible to get a I mean if you were super I mean I if you super I mean I if you super I mean I if you were it not kill all of life on Earth were it not kill all of life on Earth were it not kill all of life on Earth but kill all humans there's not many of but kill all humans there's not many of but kill all humans there's not many of us there's only like 8 us there's only like 8 us there's only like 8 billion there there's so much more ants billion there there's so much more ants billion there there's so much more ants I mean I don't I so many more I mean I don't I so many more I mean I don't I so many more ants and they're pretty smart I think we ants and they're pretty smart I think we ants and they're pretty smart I think we the nice thing about what we're where we the nice thing about what we're where we the nice thing about what we're where we are I would love for the AI crowd to are I would love for the AI crowd to are I would love for the AI crowd to take a leaf out of the book of the take a leaf out of the book of the take a leaf out of the book of the biowarfare chemical warfare biowarfare chemical warfare biowarfare chemical warfare crowd um I mean not love cuz actually crowd um I mean not love cuz actually crowd um I mean not love cuz actually people have been killed with chemical people have been killed with chemical people have been killed with chemical weapons in the first and second world weapons in the first and second world weapons in the first and second world war and people and bioweapons have been war and people and bioweapons have been war and people and bioweapons have been made and you know we can argue about made and you know we can argue about made and you know we can argue about covid-19 and all this stuff let's not go covid-19 and all this stuff let's not go covid-19 and all this stuff let's not go there just now but I think there is a there just now but I think there is a there just now but I think there is a consensus that some certain things are consensus that some certain things are consensus that some certain things are bad and we shouldn't do them right and bad and we shouldn't do them right and bad and we shouldn't do them right and um and sure it would be possible for a um and sure it would be possible for a um and sure it would be possible for a bad actor to to engineer something bad bad actor to to engineer something bad bad actor to to engineer something bad but the the damage would be we would see but the the damage would be we would see but the the damage would be we would see it coming and we would be able to do it coming and we would be able to do it coming and we would be able to do something about something about something about it um it um it um now I I I gu what I'm trying to say is now I I I gu what I'm trying to say is now I I I gu what I'm trying to say is when people talk about doom and they

when people talk about doom and they when people talk about doom and they just when you ask them for the mechanism just when you ask them for the mechanism just when you ask them for the mechanism they just say um you know they just make they just say um you know they just make they just say um you know they just make something up I'm I mean in this case I'm something up I'm I mean in this case I'm something up I'm I mean in this case I'm with Yan laon I think you put out a very with Yan laon I think you put out a very with Yan laon I think you put out a very good point about trying to regulate jet good point about trying to regulate jet good point about trying to regulate jet engines before we've even invented them engines before we've even invented them engines before we've even invented them yeah and I think that's what I'm saying yeah and I think that's what I'm saying yeah and I think that's what I'm saying I'm not saying we should I just don't I'm not saying we should I just don't I'm not saying we should I just don't understand why these guys are going understand why these guys are going understand why these guys are going around making literally making stuff up around making literally making stuff up around making literally making stuff up about us all dying yeah when basically about us all dying yeah when basically about us all dying yeah when basically we need to actually really really focus we need to actually really really focus we need to actually really really focus on now let's say there's some actors are on now let's say there's some actors are on now let's say there's some actors are earnest right let's say owski is Being earnest right let's say owski is Being earnest right let's say owski is Being Earnest right and he really cares but Earnest right and he really cares but Earnest right and he really cares but then but he loves it goes and then then but he loves it goes and then then but he loves it goes and then you're all going to die it's like you you're all going to die it's like you you're all going to die it's like you know why don't we try and do the same know why don't we try and do the same know why don't we try and do the same thing and say you could do this and then thing and say you could do this and then thing and say you could do this and then you're going to be happy forever after you're going to be happy forever after you're going to be happy forever after yeah you know well I I think uh there's yeah you know well I I think uh there's yeah you know well I I think uh there's several things to say there uh one I several things to say there uh one I several things to say there uh one I think there is a role in society for think there is a role in society for think there is a role in society for people that say we're all going to die people that say we're all going to die people that say we're all going to die cuz I cuz I cuz I think uh it filters through as a message think uh it filters through as a message think uh it filters through as a message as a viral message as a viral message as a viral message that gives us the proper amount of uh that gives us the proper amount of uh that gives us the proper amount of uh concern meaning not the it's not 95% but concern meaning not the it's not 95% but concern meaning not the it's not 95% but when you say 95% and it filters through when you say 95% and it filters through when you say 95% and it filters through Society it'll give an average of like a Society it'll give an average of like a Society it'll give an average of like a 0.3% an average so it's nice to have 0.3% an average so it's nice to have 0.3% an average so it's nice to have people that are like we're all going to people that are like we're all going to people that are like we're all going to die then we'll have a proper concern die then we'll have a proper concern die then we'll have a proper concern like for example I do believe we're not like for example I do believe we're not like for example I do believe we're not properly concerned about the threat of properly concerned about the threat of properly concerned about the threat of nuclear weapons currently like that that nuclear weapons currently like that that nuclear weapons currently like that that it just seems like people have forgotten it just seems like people have forgotten it just seems like people have forgotten that that's a thing and you know there's that that's a thing and you know there's that that's a thing and you know there's a war in Ukraine with the nuclear power

a war in Ukraine with the nuclear power a war in Ukraine with the nuclear power involved there's nuclear po throughout involved there's nuclear po throughout involved there's nuclear po throughout the world and it just feels like we're the world and it just feels like we're the world and it just feels like we're on the brink of a potential World War to on the brink of a potential World War to on the brink of a potential World War to a percentage that I don't think people a percentage that I don't think people a percentage that I don't think people are properly calibrating like in their are properly calibrating like in their are properly calibrating like in their head we're all thinking it's a Twitter head we're all thinking it's a Twitter head we're all thinking it's a Twitter battle as opposed to like actual threat battle as opposed to like actual threat battle as opposed to like actual threat so like it's nice to have that kind of so like it's nice to have that kind of so like it's nice to have that kind of level of concern but to me like what I level of concern but to me like what I level of concern but to me like what I when I hear AI doomers what I'm when I hear AI doomers what I'm when I hear AI doomers what I'm imagining imagining imagining is with unintended consequences a is with unintended consequences a is with unintended consequences a potential situation potential situation potential situation where uh let's say 5% of the world where uh let's say 5% of the world where uh let's say 5% of the world suffers deeply because of a mistake made suffers deeply because of a mistake made suffers deeply because of a mistake made of unintended consequences I don't of unintended consequences I don't of unintended consequences I don't imagine the entirety of human imagine the entirety of human imagine the entirety of human civilization dying but there's could be civilization dying but there's could be civilization dying but there's could be a lot of suffering if this is done poor a lot of suffering if this is done poor a lot of suffering if this is done poor I I understand that and I'm I kind of I I I understand that and I'm I kind of I I I understand that and I'm I kind of I guess I mean I'm involved in the whole guess I mean I'm involved in the whole guess I mean I'm involved in the whole hype cycle like why what I would like us hype cycle like why what I would like us hype cycle like why what I would like us to I don't want us to so what's to I don't want us to so what's to I don't want us to so what's happening right now is there seems to be happening right now is there seems to be happening right now is there seems to be so let me let's say having some people so let me let's say having some people so let me let's say having some people saying ai ai Doom is a worry fine let's saying ai ai Doom is a worry fine let's saying ai ai Doom is a worry fine let's give them that but it what seems to be give them that but it what seems to be give them that but it what seems to be happening is there seems to be people happening is there seems to be people happening is there seems to be people who don't think AI is doing they're who don't think AI is doing they're who don't think AI is doing they're trying to use that to control regulation trying to use that to control regulation trying to use that to control regulation and to push people to regulate where and to push people to regulate where and to push people to regulate where which which stops humans generating which which stops humans generating which which stops humans generating knowledge and I am an advocate for knowledge and I am an advocate for knowledge and I am an advocate for generating as much knowledge as possible generating as much knowledge as possible generating as much knowledge as possible MH when it comes to nuclear weapons I MH when it comes to nuclear weapons I MH when it comes to nuclear weapons I grew up in the' 70s and where the grew up in the' 70s and where the grew up in the' 70s and where the nuclear Doom a lot of adults were really nuclear Doom a lot of adults were really nuclear Doom a lot of adults were really had existential threat almost as bad as had existential threat almost as bad as had existential threat almost as bad as now with AI Doom they were really

now with AI Doom they were really now with AI Doom they were really worried right there was some great well worried right there was some great well worried right there was some great well not great there was some hor horrific not great there was some hor horrific not great there was some hor horrific documentaries I think there's one called documentaries I think there's one called documentaries I think there's one called Freds that was generated in the UK which Freds that was generated in the UK which Freds that was generated in the UK which was like it was terrible it was like so was like it was terrible it was like so was like it was terrible it was like so scary um and I think that the correct scary um and I think that the correct scary um and I think that the correct thing to do is obviously get rid of thing to do is obviously get rid of thing to do is obviously get rid of nuclear weapons but let's think about nuclear weapons but let's think about nuclear weapons but let's think about unintended consequences we've got rid of unintended consequences we've got rid of unintended consequences we've got rid of this is such a nonse we got rid of all this is such a nonse we got rid of all this is such a nonse we got rid of all the sulfur particles in the atmosphere the sulfur particles in the atmosphere the sulfur particles in the atmosphere right all the all the s and what's right all the all the s and what's right all the all the s and what's happened in the last couple of years is happened in the last couple of years is happened in the last couple of years is global warming has accelerated because global warming has accelerated because global warming has accelerated because we've cleaned up the atmosphere too we've cleaned up the atmosphere too we've cleaned up the atmosphere too much so sure I mean the same thing if much so sure I mean the same thing if much so sure I mean the same thing if you get rid of nuclear weapons you're you get rid of nuclear weapons you're you get rid of nuclear weapons you're going I exactly that's my point is if so going I exactly that's my point is if so going I exactly that's my point is if so what we could do is if we actually what we could do is if we actually what we could do is if we actually started to put the AI in charge which is started to put the AI in charge which is started to put the AI in charge which is I really like an AI to be in charge of I really like an AI to be in charge of I really like an AI to be in charge of all World politics and this is sounds all World politics and this is sounds all World politics and this is sounds ridiculous for a second hang on but if ridiculous for a second hang on but if ridiculous for a second hang on but if we could all agree on the aiers just we could all agree on the aiers just we could all agree on the aiers just woke up yeah yeah yeah on that statement woke up yeah yeah yeah on that statement woke up yeah yeah yeah on that statement but I really don't like politicians who but I really don't like politicians who but I really don't like politicians who are basically just looking at local are basically just looking at local are basically just looking at local sampling but if you could say globally sampling but if you could say globally sampling but if you could say globally look here's some Game Theory here look here's some Game Theory here look here's some Game Theory here there's how what is the minimum number there's how what is the minimum number there's how what is the minimum number of nuclear weapons we need to distribute of nuclear weapons we need to distribute of nuclear weapons we need to distribute around the N the world to everybody to around the N the world to everybody to around the N the world to everybody to basically reduce War to zero I mean just basically reduce War to zero I mean just basically reduce War to zero I mean just the Start experiment of the United the Start experiment of the United the Start experiment of the United States and China and Russia and major States and China and Russia and major States and China and Russia and major nuclear Powers get together and say all nuclear Powers get together and say all nuclear Powers get together and say all right we're going to distribute nuclear right we're going to distribute nuclear right we're going to distribute nuclear weapons every single nation on Earth weapons every single nation on Earth weapons every single nation on Earth y oh boy I mean that has a probably

y oh boy I mean that has a probably y oh boy I mean that has a probably greater than 50% chance of eliminating greater than 50% chance of eliminating greater than 50% chance of eliminating major military conflict yeah yeah but major military conflict yeah yeah but major military conflict yeah yeah but it's not 100% but but I don't think it's not 100% but but I don't think it's not 100% but but I don't think anyone will use them because I think I anyone will use them because I think I anyone will use them because I think I think and look what you've got to try think and look what you've got to try think and look what you've got to try and do is like for to qualify for these and do is like for to qualify for these and do is like for to qualify for these nuclear weapons I this is a great idea nuclear weapons I this is a great idea nuclear weapons I this is a great idea the game theorist could do this this the game theorist could do this this the game theorist could do this this right I think the question is this I I right I think the question is this I I right I think the question is this I I really buy your question we have too really buy your question we have too really buy your question we have too many nukes um from just from a feeling many nukes um from just from a feeling many nukes um from just from a feeling point of view that we've got too many of point of view that we've got too many of point of view that we've got too many of them so let's reduce the number but not them so let's reduce the number but not them so let's reduce the number but not get rid of them because we'll have too get rid of them because we'll have too get rid of them because we'll have too much conventional Warfare so then what much conventional Warfare so then what much conventional Warfare so then what is the minimum number of nuclear weapons is the minimum number of nuclear weapons is the minimum number of nuclear weapons we can just around to to remove what hum we can just around to to remove what hum we can just around to to remove what hum humans hurting each other is something humans hurting each other is something humans hurting each other is something we should stop doing it's in it's not we should stop doing it's in it's not we should stop doing it's in it's not out with our our conceptual capability out with our our conceptual capability out with our our conceptual capability but right now what about the Nations but right now what about the Nations but right now what about the Nations certain nations are being certain nations are being certain nations are being um exploited for their natural resources um exploited for their natural resources um exploited for their natural resources in the future because for a short-term in the future because for a short-term in the future because for a short-term gain because we don't want to generate gain because we don't want to generate gain because we don't want to generate knowledge and and so if everybody had an knowledge and and so if everybody had an knowledge and and so if everybody had an equal doomsday switch m i I predict the equal doomsday switch m i I predict the equal doomsday switch m i I predict the quality of life of average human will go quality of life of average human will go quality of life of average human will go up faster I am an optimist and I believe up faster I am an optimist and I believe up faster I am an optimist and I believe that humanity is going to get better and that humanity is going to get better and that humanity is going to get better and better and better that we're going to better and better that we're going to better and better that we're going to eliminate more problems um but I think eliminate more problems um but I think eliminate more problems um but I think yeah that's but uh the probability of a yeah that's but uh the probability of a yeah that's but uh the probability of a bad bad bad actor of one of the Nations setting off actor of one of the Nations setting off actor of one of the Nations setting off a nuclear a nuclear a nuclear weapon I mean you have to you have to weapon I mean you have to you have to weapon I mean you have to you have to integrate that into the but we we get we integrate that into the but we we get we integrate that into the but we we get we just give the N nukes like population just give the N nukes like population just give the N nukes like population right we give what we do is we can't

right we give what we do is we can't right we give what we do is we can't believe but anyway let's let's just go believe but anyway let's let's just go believe but anyway let's let's just go there they say so if a if a small nation there they say so if a if a small nation there they say so if a if a small nation with a couple of nukes uses one because with a couple of nukes uses one because with a couple of nukes uses one because they're a bit bored or annoyed they're they're a bit bored or annoyed they're they're a bit bored or annoyed they're going to they the likelihood that they going to they the likelihood that they going to they the likelihood that they are going to be pummeled out of are going to be pummeled out of are going to be pummeled out of existence immediately is 100% MH and yet existence immediately is 100% MH and yet existence immediately is 100% MH and yet they've only they've only nuked one they've only they've only nuked one they've only they've only nuked one other City I know this is crazy and I other City I know this is crazy and I other City I know this is crazy and I apologize for well no no I think this apologize for well no no I think this apologize for well no no I think this just to be clear we're just having a just to be clear we're just having a just to be clear we're just having a thought experiment that's interesting thought experiment that's interesting thought experiment that's interesting but you know there's terrorist but you know there's terrorist but you know there's terrorist organizations that would take that would organizations that would take that would organizations that would take that would take would take that trade yeah I mean take would take that trade yeah I mean take would take that trade yeah I mean we have to ask ourselves a question of we have to ask ourselves a question of we have to ask ourselves a question of how many Which percentage of humans how many Which percentage of humans how many Which percentage of humans would be suicide bombers essentially would be suicide bombers essentially would be suicide bombers essentially where where they would sacrifice their where where they would sacrifice their where where they would sacrifice their own life to to uh because they hate own life to to uh because they hate own life to to uh because they hate another group of people and that I another group of people and that I another group of people and that I believe it's a very small fraction but believe it's a very small fraction but believe it's a very small fraction but is it large enough to uh if you give out is it large enough to uh if you give out is it large enough to uh if you give out nuclear weapons I can predict a future nuclear weapons I can predict a future nuclear weapons I can predict a future where we take all nuclear material we where we take all nuclear material we where we take all nuclear material we burn it for energy right as because burn it for energy right as because burn it for energy right as because we're getting there and the other thing we're getting there and the other thing we're getting there and the other thing you could do is say look there's a gap you could do is say look there's a gap you could do is say look there's a gap so if we get all the countries to sign so if we get all the countries to sign so if we get all the countries to sign up to the virtual nuclear agreement up to the virtual nuclear agreement up to the virtual nuclear agreement where we all exist we have a simulation where we all exist we have a simulation where we all exist we have a simulation where we can nuke each other in the where we can nuke each other in the where we can nuke each other in the simulation and the and the economic simulation and the and the economic simulation and the and the economic consequences are consequences are consequences are catastrophic sure in the simulation I catastrophic sure in the simulation I catastrophic sure in the simulation I love it it's not going to kill all love it it's not going to kill all love it it's not going to kill all humans it's just going to have economic humans it's just going to have economic humans it's just going to have economic consequences consequences consequences I don't know I just made it up it seems I don't know I just made it up it seems I don't know I just made it up it seems like it's interesting I mean it's but like it's interesting I mean it's but like it's interesting I mean it's but it's interesting whether that would have it's interesting whether that would have it's interesting whether that would have as much power on human psychology as as much power on human psychology as as much power on human psychology as actual physical Nuclear So it's possible actual physical Nuclear So it's possible actual physical Nuclear So it's possible but people don't take Economic

but people don't take Economic but people don't take Economic Consequences as seriously I think as Consequences as seriously I think as Consequences as seriously I think as actual nuclear weapons I think they do actual nuclear weapons I think they do actual nuclear weapons I think they do in Argentina and they do in Somalia and in Argentina and they do in Somalia and in Argentina and they do in Somalia and they do in a lot of these places where they do in a lot of these places where they do in a lot of these places where no I I think this is a great idea I'm a no I I think this is a great idea I'm a no I I think this is a great idea I'm a strong Advocate now for so what have we strong Advocate now for so what have we strong Advocate now for so what have we come up with burning burning all the come up with burning burning all the come up with burning burning all the nuclear material to have energy and nuclear material to have energy and nuclear material to have energy and before we do that cuz mad is good before we do that cuz mad is good before we do that cuz mad is good mutually assured destruction is very mutually assured destruction is very mutually assured destruction is very powerful let's take it into the powerful let's take it into the powerful let's take it into the metaverse and then get people to kind of metaverse and then get people to kind of metaverse and then get people to kind of um uh subscribe to that and if they um uh subscribe to that and if they um uh subscribe to that and if they actually nuke each other even for fun in actually nuke each other even for fun in actually nuke each other even for fun in the metaverse there are dire the metaverse there are dire the metaverse there are dire consequences yeah yeah so it's like a consequences yeah yeah so it's like a consequences yeah yeah so it's like a video game we all have to join this video game we all have to join this video game we all have to join this metaverse video game yeah I can't dire metaverse video game yeah I can't dire metaverse video game yeah I can't dire Economic Consequences I don't know how Economic Consequences I don't know how Economic Consequences I don't know how and uh it's all run by AI as you and uh it's all run by AI as you and uh it's all run by AI as you mentioned which so the AI doomers is are mentioned which so the AI doomers is are mentioned which so the AI doomers is are really terrified at this point no really terrified at this point no really terrified at this point no they're happy they have a job for they're happy they have a job for they're happy they have a job for another 20 years right oh Fe Monger yeah another 20 years right oh Fe Monger yeah another 20 years right oh Fe Monger yeah yeah yeah we got I'm a Believer in equal yeah yeah we got I'm a Believer in equal yeah yeah we got I'm a Believer in equal employment you've employment you've employment you've mentioned that uh what you mentioned that uh what you mentioned that uh what you call kakina yeah yeah so you've call kakina yeah yeah so you've call kakina yeah yeah so you've mentioned that a a chemical brain is mentioned that a a chemical brain is mentioned that a a chemical brain is something you're interesting something you're interesting something you're interesting creating and uh that's a way to get creating and uh that's a way to get creating and uh that's a way to get conscious AI soon conscious AI soon conscious AI soon can you explain what a chemical brain is can you explain what a chemical brain is can you explain what a chemical brain is I want to understand the mechanism of I want to understand the mechanism of I want to understand the mechanism of intelligence that's gone through intelligence that's gone through intelligence that's gone through Evolution right because the way that the Evolution right because the way that the Evolution right because the way that the the way that um intelligence was the way that um intelligence was the way that um intelligence was produced by Evolution appears to be the

produced by Evolution appears to be the produced by Evolution appears to be the following origin of Life following origin of Life following origin of Life multicellularity multicellularity multicellularity Locomotion senses once you can start to Locomotion senses once you can start to Locomotion senses once you can start to see things come coming toward you and see things come coming toward you and see things come coming toward you and you can remember the past and you can remember the past and you can remember the past and interrogate the present and imagine the interrogate the present and imagine the interrogate the present and imagine the future you can do something something future you can do something something future you can do something something amazing right so and I think only in amazing right so and I think only in amazing right so and I think only in recent years did humans become Che and recent years did humans become Che and recent years did humans become Che and complete right yeah yeah yeah right complete right yeah yeah yeah right complete right yeah yeah yeah right we'll get and so that true we'll get and so that true we'll get and so that true incompleteness kind of gave us another incompleteness kind of gave us another incompleteness kind of gave us another kick up um but our ability to process kick up um but our ability to process kick up um but our ability to process that that that information um is produced in a wet information um is produced in a wet information um is produced in a wet brain and and I think that we are not brain and and I think that we are not brain and and I think that we are not getting going to we do not have the getting going to we do not have the getting going to we do not have the correct Hardware architectures to the correct Hardware architectures to the correct Hardware architectures to the domain flexibility and the inte the domain flexibility and the inte the domain flexibility and the inte the ability to integrate information and I ability to integrate information and I ability to integrate information and I think think think intelligence um also comes at a massive intelligence um also comes at a massive intelligence um also comes at a massive compromise of data right now we're compromise of data right now we're compromise of data right now we're obsessing about getting more and more obsessing about getting more and more obsessing about getting more and more data more and more processing more and data more and more processing more and data more and more processing more and more tricks to get dopamine hits so more tricks to get dopamine hits so more tricks to get dopamine hits so we're going to when we look back on this we're going to when we look back on this we're going to when we look back on this going oh yeah that was really cool cuz going oh yeah that was really cool cuz going oh yeah that was really cool cuz when I chat asked chat GPT it made me it when I chat asked chat GPT it made me it when I chat asked chat GPT it made me it made me really feel really made me really feel really made me really feel really happy I got a hit from it but actually happy I got a hit from it but actually happy I got a hit from it but actually it just exposed how little intelligence it just exposed how little intelligence it just exposed how little intelligence I use in in every I use in in every I use in in every moment because I'm easily fooled so what moment because I'm easily fooled so what moment because I'm easily fooled so what I would like to do is to say well hey I would like to do is to say well hey I would like to do is to say well hey hang on what is it about the brain so

hang on what is it about the brain so hang on what is it about the brain so the brain has this incredible the brain has this incredible the brain has this incredible connectivity and it has the ability to connectivity and it has the ability to connectivity and it has the ability to um you know as I said earlier about my um you know as I said earlier about my um you know as I said earlier about my nephew you know I just I went from Bill nephew you know I just I went from Bill nephew you know I just I went from Bill to Billy and he went all right Leroy to Billy and he went all right Leroy to Billy and he went all right Leroy like how did he make that leap that he like how did he make that leap that he like how did he make that leap that he was able to basically without any was able to basically without any was able to basically without any training I extended his name he went G training I extended his name he went G training I extended his name he went G he doesn't like he wants to be called he doesn't like he wants to be called he doesn't like he wants to be called Bill he went back and said you like to Bill he went back and said you like to Bill he went back and said you like to be called Lee I'm going to call you be called Lee I'm going to call you be called Lee I'm going to call you Leroy um so human beings have a ma Leroy um so human beings have a ma Leroy um so human beings have a ma brilliant ability or intelligent beings brilliant ability or intelligent beings brilliant ability or intelligent beings appear to have a brilliant ability to appear to have a brilliant ability to appear to have a brilliant ability to integrate across all domains all at once integrate across all domains all at once integrate across all domains all at once and to synthesize something which allows and to synthesize something which allows and to synthesize something which allows us to generate knowledge and and us to generate knowledge and and us to generate knowledge and and becoming true and becoming true and becoming true and complete on our own I don't although AIS complete on our own I don't although AIS complete on our own I don't although AIS are built in cheing complete things are built in cheing complete things are built in cheing complete things their their thinking is not cheing their their thinking is not cheing their their thinking is not cheing complete in that they are not able to complete in that they are not able to complete in that they are not able to build Universal build Universal build Universal explanations and that lack of universal explanations and that lack of universal explanations and that lack of universal explanation means that they're just explanation means that they're just explanation means that they're just inductivist inductivism doesn't get you inductivist inductivism doesn't get you inductivist inductivism doesn't get you anywhere in not not it's just basically anywhere in not not it's just basically anywhere in not not it's just basically a party trick it's like you know the the a party trick it's like you know the the a party trick it's like you know the the I like the um I think it's in the fabric I like the um I think it's in the fabric I like the um I think it's in the fabric of reality from David deuts where of reality from David deuts where of reality from David deuts where basically you know the farmer is feeding basically you know the farmer is feeding basically you know the farmer is feeding the chicken every day and the chicken's the chicken every day and the chicken's the chicken every day and the chicken's getting fat and happy and chicken's like getting fat and happy and chicken's like getting fat and happy and chicken's like I'm really happy every time the farmer I'm really happy every time the farmer I'm really happy every time the farmer comes in and feeds me and then one day comes in and feeds me and then one day comes in and feeds me and then one day the farmer comes in and doesn't instead the farmer comes in and doesn't instead the farmer comes in and doesn't instead of feeding the chicken just Rings its of feeding the chicken just Rings its of feeding the chicken just Rings its neck you know and that's kind of and had neck you know and that's kind of and had neck you know and that's kind of and had the chicken had an alternative

the chicken had an alternative the chicken had an alternative understanding of why the farmer was understanding of why the farmer was understanding of why the farmer was feeding it m it's interesting though feeding it m it's interesting though feeding it m it's interesting though because we don't know what's special because we don't know what's special because we don't know what's special about the human mind that's able to come about the human mind that's able to come about the human mind that's able to come up with these kind of up with these kind of up with these kind of generalities uh this Universal theories generalities uh this Universal theories generalities uh this Universal theories of things and come up with novelty I can of things and come up with novelty I can of things and come up with novelty I can imagine because you gave an example you imagine because you gave an example you imagine because you gave an example you you know about uh William and Leroy you know about uh William and Leroy you know about uh William and Leroy I I feel I I feel I I feel like example like that will be able to like example like that will be able to like example like that will be able to see in future versions of large language see in future versions of large language see in future versions of large language models will be really really really models will be really really really models will be really really really impressed by the humor the impressed by the humor the impressed by the humor the insights all of it because it's insights all of it because it's insights all of it because it's fundamentally trained on all the fundamentally trained on all the fundamentally trained on all the incredible humor and insights that's incredible humor and insights that's incredible humor and insights that's available out on the internet right so available out on the internet right so available out on the internet right so we'll be impressed I think we'll be we'll be impressed I think we'll be we'll be impressed I think we'll be impressed oh I'm impressed right I'm impressed oh I'm impressed right I'm impressed oh I'm impressed right I'm impressed increasingly so but we're impressed increasingly so but we're impressed increasingly so but we're mining the past yes and what the human mining the past yes and what the human mining the past yes and what the human brain appears to be able to do is mine brain appears to be able to do is mine brain appears to be able to do is mine the future yes so novelty it is the future yes so novelty it is the future yes so novelty it is interesting whether these large language interesting whether these large language interesting whether these large language models will ever be able to come up with models will ever be able to come up with models will ever be able to come up with something truly novel I can show on the something truly novel I can show on the something truly novel I can show on the back of a piece of paper why that's back of a piece of paper why that's back of a piece of paper why that's impossible and it's like the problem is impossible and it's like the problem is impossible and it's like the problem is that and again these are domain experts that and again these are domain experts that and again these are domain experts kind of kind of kind of bullshitting each other the term bullshitting each other the term bullshitting each other the term generative yes right average person generative yes right average person generative yes right average person think oh it's gener no no no if look if think oh it's gener no no no if look if think oh it's gener no no no if look if I take the the numbers between Zer and I take the the numbers between Zer and I take the the numbers between Zer and 1,000 and I train a model to pick out 1,000 and I train a model to pick out 1,000 and I train a model to pick out the prime numbers by giving them all the the prime numbers by giving them all the the prime numbers by giving them all the prime numbers between zero and a th it

prime numbers between zero and a th it prime numbers between zero and a th it doesn't know what a prime number is MHM doesn't know what a prime number is MHM doesn't know what a prime number is MHM occasionally if I can cheat a bit it occasionally if I can cheat a bit it occasionally if I can cheat a bit it will start to Guess that that it never will start to Guess that that it never will start to Guess that that it never will produce anything out with the data will produce anything out with the data will produce anything out with the data set because you mind the past the thing set because you mind the past the thing set because you mind the past the thing that I'm getting to is I think that that I'm getting to is I think that that I'm getting to is I think that actually current machine learning actually current machine learning actually current machine learning Technologies might actually help reveal Technologies might actually help reveal Technologies might actually help reveal why time is fundamental it's like kind why time is fundamental it's like kind why time is fundamental it's like kind of insane because they tell you about of insane because they tell you about of insane because they tell you about what's happened in the past but they can what's happened in the past but they can what's happened in the past but they can never help you understand what's never help you understand what's never help you understand what's happening in the future without training happening in the future without training happening in the future without training examples sure if that thing happens examples sure if that thing happens examples sure if that thing happens again it's like um so I think so let's again it's like um so I think so let's again it's like um so I think so let's think about what large langage models think about what large langage models think about what large langage models are doing we have the we have the Lang are doing we have the we have the Lang are doing we have the we have the Lang we have all the internet as we know it we have all the internet as we know it we have all the internet as we know it you know language but also they're doing you know language but also they're doing you know language but also they're doing something else we having human beings something else we having human beings something else we having human beings correcting it all the time those models correcting it all the time those models correcting it all the time those models are being corrected um steered are being corrected um steered are being corrected um steered corrected modified tweaked is well yeah corrected modified tweaked is well yeah corrected modified tweaked is well yeah but I mean but I mean but I mean cheating well you could say that cheating well you could say that cheating well you could say that training on human data in the first training on human data in the first training on human data in the first place is cheating well let me human is place is cheating well let me human is place is cheating well let me human is in the loop sorry in TR yes so human is in the loop sorry in TR yes so human is in the loop sorry in TR yes so human is definitely in the definitely in the definitely in the loop uh but it's not just human is in loop uh but it's not just human is in loop uh but it's not just human is in the loop a very large collection of the loop a very large collection of the loop a very large collection of humans is in the look and that could humans is in the look and that could humans is in the look and that could be I mean to me it's not intuitive that be I mean to me it's not intuitive that be I mean to me it's not intuitive that you said prime numbers that the system you said prime numbers that the system you said prime numbers that the system can't generate an can't generate an can't generate an algorithm right algorithm right algorithm right that the algorithm that can generate that the algorithm that can generate that the algorithm that can generate prime numbers or the algorithm that can prime numbers or the algorithm that can prime numbers or the algorithm that can tell you if a number is prime and so on

tell you if a number is prime and so on tell you if a number is prime and so on and generate algorithms that generate and generate algorithms that generate and generate algorithms that generate algorithms that generate algorithms that algorithms that generate algorithms that algorithms that generate algorithms that I I can that start to look a lot like I I can that start to look a lot like I I can that start to look a lot like human reasoning you know I don't think I human reasoning you know I don't think I human reasoning you know I don't think I think again we can show that on a piece think again we can show that on a piece think again we can show that on a piece of paper that sure I think there has you of paper that sure I think there has you of paper that sure I think there has you have to have so this is the failure in have to have so this is the failure in have to have so this is the failure in epistemology like I'm I'm glad I even epistemology like I'm I'm glad I even epistemology like I'm I'm glad I even can say that word let know what it means can say that word let know what it means can say that word let know what it means you said it multiple times I know it's you said it multiple times I know it's you said it multiple times I know it's like three times now like three times now like three times now failure quit while your ahead just don't failure quit while your ahead just don't failure quit while your ahead just don't say it again you did really well thanks say it again you did really well thanks say it again you did really well thanks so I but I I think the so what is so I but I I think the so what is so I but I I think the so what is reasoning so coming back to chemical reasoning so coming back to chemical reasoning so coming back to chemical brain if I could basically if I could brain if I could basically if I could brain if I could basically if I could show that in a cuz I mean I'm never show that in a cuz I mean I'm never show that in a cuz I mean I'm never going to make an intelligence in in cam going to make an intelligence in in cam going to make an intelligence in in cam macina because we don't have brain cells macina because we don't have brain cells macina because we don't have brain cells they don't have Gile cells they don't they don't have Gile cells they don't they don't have Gile cells they don't have neurons but if I can make if I can have neurons but if I can make if I can have neurons but if I can make if I can take a matri a gel and engineer the gel take a matri a gel and engineer the gel take a matri a gel and engineer the gel to have it be a hybrid hardware for repr to have it be a hybrid hardware for repr to have it be a hybrid hardware for repr reprogramming which I think I know how reprogramming which I think I know how reprogramming which I think I know how to do I will be process a lot more to do I will be process a lot more to do I will be process a lot more information and train train models information and train train models information and train train models billions of times cheaper and use cross billions of times cheaper and use cross billions of times cheaper and use cross domain knowledge and there's certain domain knowledge and there's certain domain knowledge and there's certain techniques I think we can do but it's techniques I think we can do but it's techniques I think we can do but it's still missing still missing still missing though the the the abilities of human though the the the abilities of human though the the the abilities of human beings have had to become true and beings have had to become true and beings have had to become true and complete and so I guess the question to complete and so I guess the question to complete and so I guess the question to to give back at you and I it's like how to give back at you and I it's like how to give back at you and I it's like how do you tell the difference between trial do you tell the difference between trial do you tell the difference between trial and and and error um and the generation of new error um and the generation of new error um and the generation of new knowledge I think the way you can do it knowledge I think the way you can do it knowledge I think the way you can do it is this is that you come up with a a

is this is that you come up with a a is this is that you come up with a a theory an explanation just inspiration theory an explanation just inspiration theory an explanation just inspiration comes from out yeah and then you then comes from out yeah and then you then comes from out yeah and then you then test that and then you you see that's test that and then you you see that's test that and then you you see that's going towards a truth and human beings going towards a truth and human beings going towards a truth and human beings are very good at doing that in and the are very good at doing that in and the are very good at doing that in and the transition between philosophy transition between philosophy transition between philosophy mathematics physics and Natural Sciences mathematics physics and Natural Sciences mathematics physics and Natural Sciences where and I think that we we can see where and I think that we we can see where and I think that we we can see that where I get confused is why people that where I get confused is why people that where I get confused is why people misappropriate the term artificial misappropriate the term artificial misappropriate the term artificial intelligence to say hey there's intelligence to say hey there's intelligence to say hey there's something else going on here because I something else going on here because I something else going on here because I think you and I both agree machine think you and I both agree machine think you and I both agree machine learning is really good it's only get learning is really good it's only get learning is really good it's only get better we're going to get happier with better we're going to get happier with better we're going to get happier with the outcome but why would you ever think the outcome but why would you ever think the outcome but why would you ever think the model was thinking the model was thinking the model was thinking or reasoning reasoning requires or reasoning reasoning requires or reasoning reasoning requires intention and the intention if the model intention and the intention if the model intention and the intention if the model isn't reasoning the intentions come from isn't reasoning the intentions come from isn't reasoning the intentions come from the the the prompter and the intention has come from prompter and the intention has come from prompter and the intention has come from the person who programmed it to do it so the person who programmed it to do it so the person who programmed it to do it so I'm I um but don't you think you can I'm I um but don't you think you can I'm I um but don't you think you can prompt it to have intention basically prompt it to have intention basically prompt it to have intention basically start with the initial conditions and start with the initial conditions and start with the initial conditions and get it going where the you know get it going where the you know get it going where the you know currently large language models Chad currently large language models Chad currently large language models Chad GPT only talks to you when you talk to GPT only talks to you when you talk to GPT only talks to you when you talk to it there's no reason why you can't just it there's no reason why you can't just it there's no reason why you can't just start it talking but but those initial start it talking but but those initial start it talking but but those initial condition conditions came from someone condition conditions came from someone condition conditions came from someone starting it yes and that causal chain in starting it yes and that causal chain in starting it yes and that causal chain in there so that intention comes from the there so that intention comes from the there so that intention comes from the outside I think that there is something outside I think that there is something outside I think that there is something in that causal chain of intention that's

in that causal chain of intention that's in that causal chain of intention that's super important m i i don't disagree super important m i i don't disagree super important m i i don't disagree we're going to get to AGI it's a matter we're going to get to AGI it's a matter we're going to get to AGI it's a matter of when and what Hardware I think we're of when and what Hardware I think we're of when and what Hardware I think we're not can do it in this hardware and I not can do it in this hardware and I not can do it in this hardware and I think we're unnecessarily fet azing think we're unnecessarily fet azing think we're unnecessarily fet azing really cool outputs and dopamine hits really cool outputs and dopamine hits really cool outputs and dopamine hits because obviously that's what people because obviously that's what people because obviously that's what people want to sell want to sell want to sell us well but there could be I mean AGI is us well but there could be I mean AGI is us well but there could be I mean AGI is is a loaded term but there could be is a loaded term but there could be is a loaded term but there could be incredibly super incredibly super incredibly super in in in impressive intelligence impressive intelligence impressive intelligence systems on the way to AGI so these large systems on the way to AGI so these large systems on the way to AGI so these large language models I mean if it appears language models I mean if it appears language models I mean if it appears conscious if it appears super conscious if it appears super conscious if it appears super intelligent intelligent intelligent uh poor would to say it's not I agree uh poor would to say it's not I agree uh poor would to say it's not I agree but I the super intelligence I want I but I the super intelligence I want I but I the super intelligence I want I want to I want to be able to have a want to I want to be able to have a want to I want to be able to have a discussion with it discussion with it discussion with it about um coming up with fundamental new about um coming up with fundamental new about um coming up with fundamental new ideas that generate knowledge and if ideas that generate knowledge and if ideas that generate knowledge and if this if the superintelligence generate this if the superintelligence generate this if the superintelligence generate com mine novel E from the future that I com mine novel E from the future that I com mine novel E from the future that I didn't see in its training set in the didn't see in its training set in the didn't see in its training set in the past I would agree that something really past I would agree that something really past I would agree that something really interesting is coming on I'll say that interesting is coming on I'll say that interesting is coming on I'll say that again if the if the intelligent system again if the if the intelligent system again if the if the intelligent system be a human being a chat chat bot be a human being a chat chat bot be a human being a chat chat bot something else is able to produce something else is able to produce something else is able to produce something truly novel that we I could something truly novel that we I could something truly novel that we I could not predict even having full audit trail not predict even having full audit trail not predict even having full audit trail from the past then I'll be sold well so from the past then I'll be sold well so from the past then I'll be sold well so we should be clear that it can currently we should be clear that it can currently we should be clear that it can currently produ it can currently produce things produ it can currently produce things produ it can currently produce things that are in a shallow sense novel that that are in a shallow sense novel that that are in a shallow sense novel that are not in the training set but you're are not in the training set but you're are not in the training set but you're saying truly novel I think they are in

saying truly novel I think they are in saying truly novel I think they are in the training set I think everything it the training set I think everything it the training set I think everything it produces comes from a training set they produces comes from a training set they produces comes from a training set they might be in there's a difference between might be in there's a difference between might be in there's a difference between interp novelty and interpolation MH we interp novelty and interpolation MH we interp novelty and interpolation MH we do not understand where these leaps come do not understand where these leaps come do not understand where these leaps come from yet that is what intelligence is I from yet that is what intelligence is I from yet that is what intelligence is I would argue those leaps and some people would argue those leaps and some people would argue those leaps and some people say no it's actually just what will say no it's actually just what will say no it's actually just what will happen if you just do cross domain happen if you just do cross domain happen if you just do cross domain training and all that stuff and that may training and all that stuff and that may training and all that stuff and that may be true and I may be completely wrong be true and I may be completely wrong be true and I may be completely wrong but right now the human mind is able to but right now the human mind is able to but right now the human mind is able to mine novelty in a way that artificial mine novelty in a way that artificial mine novelty in a way that artificial intelligence systems cannot and this is intelligence systems cannot and this is intelligence systems cannot and this is why we still all have a job and we're why we still all have a job and we're why we still all have a job and we're still doing stuff and you know I used still doing stuff and you know I used still doing stuff and you know I used chat GPT for a few weeks oh this is cool chat GPT for a few weeks oh this is cool chat GPT for a few weeks oh this is cool and then it took me too I had to I well and then it took me too I had to I well and then it took me too I had to I well what happened is it took me too much what happened is it took me too much what happened is it took me too much time to correct it then it got really time to correct it then it got really time to correct it then it got really good and now they've they've done good and now they've they've done good and now they've they've done something to it it's not actually that something to it it's not actually that something to it it's not actually that good yeah right I don't know what's good yeah right I don't know what's good yeah right I don't know what's going on there censorship yeah so I mean going on there censorship yeah so I mean going on there censorship yeah so I mean that's interesting but it will push us that's interesting but it will push us that's interesting but it will push us humans to uh characterize novelty better humans to uh characterize novelty better humans to uh characterize novelty better like characterize the the novel like like characterize the the novel like like characterize the the novel like what is novel what is truly novel what's what is novel what is truly novel what's what is novel what is truly novel what's the difference between novelty and the difference between novelty and the difference between novelty and interpolation I think that this this is interpolation I think that this this is interpolation I think that this this is the thing that makes me most excited the thing that makes me most excited the thing that makes me most excited about these Technologies is they're about these Technologies is they're about these Technologies is they're going to help me demonstrate to you that going to help me demonstrate to you that going to help me demonstrate to you that time is fundamental and unit future is time is fundamental and unit future is time is fundamental and unit future is bigger than the than the than the bigger than the than the than the bigger than the than the than the present which is why we we are human present which is why we we are human present which is why we we are human beings are quite good at um generating beings are quite good at um generating beings are quite good at um generating novelty because we have to expand our novelty because we have to expand our novelty because we have to expand our data set and and to cope with unexpected data set and and to cope with unexpected data set and and to cope with unexpected things in our environment our things in our environment our things in our environment our environment frows them all at us again environment frows them all at us again environment frows them all at us again we have to survive in that environment we have to survive in that environment we have to survive in that environment and I mean I look I Never Say Never I and I mean I look I Never Say Never I and I mean I look I Never Say Never I would be very interested in how we can

would be very interested in how we can would be very interested in how we can get um cross-domain training cheaply in get um cross-domain training cheaply in get um cross-domain training cheaply in chemical systems cuz I'm a chemist and chemical systems cuz I'm a chemist and chemical systems cuz I'm a chemist and bra the only any sen in thing I know of bra the only any sen in thing I know of bra the only any sen in thing I know of as a human brain but maybe that's just as a human brain but maybe that's just as a human brain but maybe that's just me being boring and predictable and not me being boring and predictable and not me being boring and predictable and not novel Yeah you mentioned GPT for novel Yeah you mentioned GPT for novel Yeah you mentioned GPT for electron density so a GPT like system electron density so a GPT like system electron density so a GPT like system for uh generating molecules that can for uh generating molecules that can for uh generating molecules that can bind to host automatically I mean that's bind to host automatically I mean that's bind to host automatically I mean that's that's interesting that's really that's interesting that's really that's interesting that's really interesting applying this same kind of interesting applying this same kind of interesting applying this same kind of transforming mechanism yeah for I mean transforming mechanism yeah for I mean transforming mechanism yeah for I mean this is one of um it goes my team I try this is one of um it goes my team I try this is one of um it goes my team I try and do things that are non obvious but and do things that are non obvious but and do things that are non obvious but non obvious in certain areas and one of non obvious in certain areas and one of non obvious in certain areas and one of the things I was always asking about in the things I was always asking about in the things I was always asking about in chemistry people like to represent chemistry people like to represent chemistry people like to represent molecules as graphs and it's quite molecules as graphs and it's quite molecules as graphs and it's quite difficult it's it's really hard in a difficult it's it's really hard in a difficult it's it's really hard in a when if you're doing Ai and chemistry when if you're doing Ai and chemistry when if you're doing Ai and chemistry you really want to basically have good you really want to basically have good you really want to basically have good representations you can generate new representations you can generate new representations you can generate new molecules are interesting and I was molecules are interesting and I was molecules are interesting and I was thinking well molecules aren't really thinking well molecules aren't really thinking well molecules aren't really graphs and they're not continuously graphs and they're not continuously graphs and they're not continuously differentiable could I do something that differentiable could I do something that differentiable could I do something that was continuously differenti I like well was continuously differenti I like well was continuously differenti I like well molecules are actually made up of molecules are actually made up of molecules are actually made up of electron density so I got thinking say electron density so I got thinking say electron density so I got thinking say well okay well okay well okay could there be a way where we could just could there be a way where we could just could there be a way where we could just basically take a um take a database of basically take a um take a database of basically take a um take a database of readily solved electron densities for in readily solved electron densities for in readily solved electron densities for in millions of molecules so we took the millions of molecules so we took the millions of molecules so we took the electron density for millions of electron density for millions of electron density for millions of molecules and just trained a model to molecules and just trained a model to molecules and just trained a model to put to learn What electron density put to learn What electron density put to learn What electron density is and so what we built was a system is and so what we built was a system is and so what we built was a system that you literally could give it a let's that you literally could give it a let's that you literally could give it a let's say you could take a protein that has a say you could take a protein that has a say you could take a protein that has a particular active site or you know a cup

particular active site or you know a cup particular active site or you know a cup with a certain hole in it you pour noise with a certain hole in it you pour noise with a certain hole in it you pour noise into it and with the GPT you turn the into it and with the GPT you turn the into it and with the GPT you turn the noise into electron density and then in noise into electron density and then in noise into electron density and then in this case it hallucinates like all of this case it hallucinates like all of this case it hallucinates like all of them do but the hallucinations are good them do but the hallucinations are good them do but the hallucinations are good because it means I don't have to train because it means I don't have to train because it means I don't have to train on such a large num such a huge data set on such a large num such a huge data set on such a large num such a huge data set because these data sets are very because these data sets are very because these data sets are very expensive because how do you produce it expensive because how do you produce it expensive because how do you produce it so so go back a steps you've got all so so go back a steps you've got all so so go back a steps you've got all these molecules in this data set but these molecules in this data set but these molecules in this data set but what you've literally done is um a what you've literally done is um a what you've literally done is um a quantum mechanical calculation where quantum mechanical calculation where quantum mechanical calculation where produce electron densities for each produce electron densities for each produce electron densities for each molecule so you say oh this molecule so you say oh this molecule so you say oh this representation of this molecule has representation of this molecule has representation of this molecule has these electron density associated with these electron density associated with these electron density associated with it so you know what the representation it so you know what the representation it so you know what the representation is and you train the neural network to is and you train the neural network to is and you train the neural network to know what electron density is so then know what electron density is so then know what electron density is so then you give it an unknown pocket you pour you give it an unknown pocket you pour you give it an unknown pocket you pour in noise and you say right produce me in noise and you say right produce me in noise and you say right produce me electron density it produces electron electron density it produces electron electron density it produces electron density that doesn't look ridiculous and density that doesn't look ridiculous and density that doesn't look ridiculous and what we we did in this case is we what we we did in this case is we what we we did in this case is we produced electron density that um produced electron density that um produced electron density that um maximizes the electrostatic potential so maximizes the electrostatic potential so maximizes the electrostatic potential so the stickiness but minimizes the what we the stickiness but minimizes the what we the stickiness but minimizes the what we call the steric hindrance so the overlap call the steric hindrance so the overlap call the steric hindrance so the overlap so it's repulsive so you know make the so it's repulsive so you know make the so it's repulsive so you know make the perfect fit and then with then used a perfect fit and then with then used a perfect fit and then with then used a kind of kind of kind of a kind of like a chat GPT type thing to a kind of like a chat GPT type thing to a kind of like a chat GPT type thing to turn that electron density into what's turn that electron density into what's turn that electron density into what's called a smile a smile string is a is a called a smile a smile string is a is a called a smile a smile string is a is a is a a way of representing a molecule in is a a way of representing a molecule in is a a way of representing a molecule in letters mhm and then we can then so just letters mhm and then we can then so just letters mhm and then we can then so just generate them then just generates them generate them then just generates them generate them then just generates them and then the other thing is and we bung and then the other thing is and we bung and then the other thing is and we bung that into the computer and then just that into the computer and then just that into the computer and then just makes it yeah the the computer being the makes it yeah the the computer being the makes it yeah the the computer being the thing that right robot that we've got thing that right robot that we've got thing that right robot that we've got that can basically just do chemistry

that can basically just do chemistry that can basically just do chemistry yeah so kind of we kind of got this end yeah so kind of we kind of got this end yeah so kind of we kind of got this end to end drug Discovery machine where you to end drug Discovery machine where you to end drug Discovery machine where you can say oh you want to buy into this can say oh you want to buy into this can say oh you want to buy into this active site here you go I mean it's a active site here you go I mean it's a active site here you go I mean it's a bit leaky and things kind of break but bit leaky and things kind of break but bit leaky and things kind of break but it's it's a proof of principle well were it's it's a proof of principle well were it's it's a proof of principle well were the hallucinations what are those the hallucinations what are those the hallucinations what are those still uh accurate well the still uh accurate well the still uh accurate well the hallucinations are really great in this hallucinations are really great in this hallucinations are really great in this case cuz in the case of a large language case cuz in the case of a large language case cuz in the case of a large language model the hallucinations just like just model the hallucinations just like just model the hallucinations just like just make everything up to when it doesn't make everything up to when it doesn't make everything up to when it doesn't just make everything up but it gives you just make everything up but it gives you just make everything up but it gives you an output that you're plausibly an output that you're plausibly an output that you're plausibly comfortable with and thinks you're doing comfortable with and thinks you're doing comfortable with and thinks you're doing probabilistically the problem on these probabilistically the problem on these probabilistically the problem on these electron density models is it's very electron density models is it's very electron density models is it's very expensive to solve a shreding equation expensive to solve a shreding equation expensive to solve a shreding equation going up to many heavy atoms and me and going up to many heavy atoms and me and going up to many heavy atoms and me and large molecules and so we wondered if we large molecules and so we wondered if we large molecules and so we wondered if we trained the um the the system on up to trained the um the the system on up to trained the um the the system on up to nine heavy atoms whether it would go nine heavy atoms whether it would go nine heavy atoms whether it would go beyond nine and it did it started to beyond nine and it did it started to beyond nine and it did it started to generate molecules of 12 no problem they generate molecules of 12 no problem they generate molecules of 12 no problem they look pretty good and I was like well look pretty good and I was like well look pretty good and I was like well this hallucination I will take for free this hallucination I will take for free this hallucination I will take for free thank you very much because it just thank you very much because it just thank you very much because it just basically um this is a case where basically um this is a case where basically um this is a case where interpolation extrapolation worked interpolation extrapolation worked interpolation extrapolation worked relatively well um and we were able to relatively well um and we were able to relatively well um and we were able to generate the really good molecules and generate the really good molecules and generate the really good molecules and then what we were able to do here is and then what we were able to do here is and then what we were able to do here is and this is a really good point what I was this is a really good point what I was this is a really good point what I was trying to say earlier that we were able trying to say earlier that we were able trying to say earlier that we were able to generate new to generate new to generate new molecules from the known data set that molecules from the known data set that molecules from the known data set that would bind to the the host so a new would bind to the the host so a new would bind to the the host so a new guest would bind were these truly novel guest would bind were these truly novel guest would bind were these truly novel not really because they they were not really because they they were not really because they they were constrained by the host were they new to

constrained by the host were they new to constrained by the host were they new to us yes so I do un well understand I can us yes so I do un well understand I can us yes so I do un well understand I can concede that machine Learning Systems um concede that machine Learning Systems um concede that machine Learning Systems um artificial intelligence systems can artificial intelligence systems can artificial intelligence systems can generate new entities but how novel are generate new entities but how novel are generate new entities but how novel are they it remains to be they it remains to be they it remains to be seen yeah and how novel the things that seen yeah and how novel the things that seen yeah and how novel the things that humans generate is also difficult to uh humans generate is also difficult to uh humans generate is also difficult to uh quantify MH they seem quantify MH they seem quantify MH they seem novel that's what a lot of people say novel that's what a lot of people say novel that's what a lot of people say like you know so the way to really get like you know so the way to really get like you know so the way to really get to genuine novelty and assembly Theory to genuine novelty and assembly Theory to genuine novelty and assembly Theory shows you the way is to have different shows you the way is to have different shows you the way is to have different causal chains overlap and this really causal chains overlap and this really causal chains overlap and this really this really um resonates with the the this really um resonates with the the this really um resonates with the the the time is fundamental argument and if the time is fundamental argument and if the time is fundamental argument and if you're bringing together um a couple of you're bringing together um a couple of you're bringing together um a couple of object objects with different initial object objects with different initial object objects with different initial conditions coming together when they conditions coming together when they conditions coming together when they interact the more different their interact the more different their interact the more different their histories the more novelty they generate histories the more novelty they generate histories the more novelty they generate in time going forward and so it could be in time going forward and so it could be in time going forward and so it could be that genuine novelty is basically about that genuine novelty is basically about that genuine novelty is basically about mix mix it up a little and the human mix mix it up a little and the human mix mix it up a little and the human brain is able to mix it up a little brain is able to mix it up a little brain is able to mix it up a little little and all that stimulus comes from little and all that stimulus comes from little and all that stimulus comes from the environment but all I think I'm the environment but all I think I'm the environment but all I think I'm saying is the universe is deterministic saying is the universe is deterministic saying is the universe is deterministic going back in time non-deterministic going back in time non-deterministic going back in time non-deterministic going forward in time because the future going forward in time because the future going forward in time because the future is too the universe is too big in the is too the universe is too big in the is too the universe is too big in the future to contain in the present future to contain in the present future to contain in the present therefore these collisions of known therefore these collisions of known therefore these collisions of known things generate unknown things that then things generate unknown things that then things generate unknown things that then become part of your data set and don't

become part of your data set and don't become part of your data set and don't appear weird appear weird appear weird that's how we give ourselves Comfort the that's how we give ourselves Comfort the that's how we give ourselves Comfort the past looks consistent with this initial past looks consistent with this initial past looks consistent with this initial condition hypothesis but actually we're condition hypothesis but actually we're condition hypothesis but actually we're generating more and more novelty and generating more and more novelty and generating more and more novelty and that's how it works that's how it works that's how it works simple so it's hard to quantify novelty simple so it's hard to quantify novelty simple so it's hard to quantify novelty looking backwards I mean the the present looking backwards I mean the the present looking backwards I mean the the present and the future of the novelty generators and the future of the novelty generators and the future of the novelty generators but I I like this whole idea of mining but I I like this whole idea of mining but I I like this whole idea of mining novelty I think it is um it is going to novelty I think it is um it is going to novelty I think it is um it is going to reveal why the limitations of current AI reveal why the limitations of current AI reveal why the limitations of current AI is a bit like a printing press right is a bit like a printing press right is a bit like a printing press right everyone thought that when book when the everyone thought that when book when the everyone thought that when book when the printing press came that writing books printing press came that writing books printing press came that writing books is going to be terrible that you had is going to be terrible that you had is going to be terrible that you had evil spirits and all this they were just evil spirits and all this they were just evil spirits and all this they were just books and same would be with AI yeah but books and same would be with AI yeah but books and same would be with AI yeah but there I think there just a scale you can there I think there just a scale you can there I think there just a scale you can achieve in terms of impact with AI achieve in terms of impact with AI achieve in terms of impact with AI systems is pretty nerve-wracking but systems is pretty nerve-wracking but systems is pretty nerve-wracking but that's what the big companies want you that's what the big companies want you that's what the big companies want you to to to think but not like in terms of Destroy think but not like in terms of Destroy think but not like in terms of Destroy All Humans but you can have All Humans but you can have All Humans but you can have major consequences in the way social major consequences in the way social major consequences in the way social media has had major media has had major media has had major consequences both positive and negative consequences both positive and negative consequences both positive and negative and so you have to kind of think about and so you have to kind of think about and so you have to kind of think about it and worry about it but yeah people it and worry about it but yeah people it and worry about it but yeah people that fear Monger you know my theory yeah that fear Monger you know my theory yeah that fear Monger you know my theory yeah for this you want to know yeah is I for this you want to know yeah is I for this you want to know yeah is I think that um a lot of and maybe I'm think that um a lot of and maybe I'm think that um a lot of and maybe I'm being and I think I really do respect um being and I think I really do respect um being and I think I really do respect um you know um a lot of the people out you know um a lot of the people out you know um a lot of the people out there who are trying to have discourse there who are trying to have discourse there who are trying to have discourse about the positive future so open AI about the positive future so open AI about the positive future so open AI guys meta guys and all this and what I guys meta guys and all this and what I guys meta guys and all this and what I wonder if they're trying to cover up for wonder if they're trying to cover up for wonder if they're trying to cover up for the fact that social media has had a the fact that social media has had a the fact that social media has had a pretty disastrous effect on some level

pretty disastrous effect on some level pretty disastrous effect on some level and they're just trying to say oh yeah and they're just trying to say oh yeah and they're just trying to say oh yeah we should do this cuz and then covering we should do this cuz and then covering we should do this cuz and then covering up for the fact that we have got some up for the fact that we have got some up for the fact that we have got some problems with you know teenagers and problems with you know teenagers and problems with you know teenagers and Instagram and Snapchat and you know all Instagram and Snapchat and you know all Instagram and Snapchat and you know all this stuff and maybe they're just this stuff and maybe they're just this stuff and maybe they're just overreacting now yeah it's like oh yeah overreacting now yeah it's like oh yeah overreacting now yeah it's like oh yeah sorry we made the bubonic plate and gave sorry we made the bubonic plate and gave sorry we made the bubonic plate and gave it to you all and you all dying and oh it to you all and you all dying and oh it to you all and you all dying and oh yeah but look at this over here is even yeah but look at this over here is even yeah but look at this over here is even worse yeah there's a there's a little worse yeah there's a there's a little worse yeah there's a there's a little bit of that but there's also not enough bit of that but there's also not enough bit of that but there's also not enough celebration of the positive impact that celebration of the positive impact that celebration of the positive impact that all these technologies have had tend to all these technologies have had tend to all these technologies have had tend to focus on the negative and tend to focus on the negative and tend to focus on the negative and tend to forget that in part because it's hard to forget that in part because it's hard to forget that in part because it's hard to measure like it's very hard to measure measure like it's very hard to measure measure like it's very hard to measure the positive impact social media had on the positive impact social media had on the positive impact social media had on the world yeah I I agree but if what I the world yeah I I agree but if what I the world yeah I I agree but if what I worry about right now is like I'm really worry about right now is like I'm really worry about right now is like I'm really I do care about the ethics of what we're I do care about the ethics of what we're I do care about the ethics of what we're doing and the one of the reasons why I'm doing and the one of the reasons why I'm doing and the one of the reasons why I'm so open about the the things we're so open about the the things we're so open about the the things we're trying to do in the lab make life look trying to do in the lab make life look trying to do in the lab make life look at intelligence all this is so people at intelligence all this is so people at intelligence all this is so people say what are the consequences of this say what are the consequences of this say what are the consequences of this and you say what are the consequences of and you say what are the consequences of and you say what are the consequences of not doing it and I think that um not doing it and I think that um not doing it and I think that um what I what worries me right now in the what I what worries me right now in the what I what worries me right now in the present is lack of authenticated users present is lack of authenticated users present is lack of authenticated users and authenticated data and human users and authenticated data and human users and authenticated data and human users yeah yeah yeah human I still think that there will be human I still think that there will be human I still think that there will be AI agents that appear to be conscious AI agents that appear to be conscious AI agents that appear to be conscious but they would have to be also but they would have to be also but they would have to be also authenticated and labeled as such oh authenticated and labeled as such oh authenticated and labeled as such oh there's too much there's too much value there's too much there's too much value there's too much there's too much value in that you know like friendships with in that you know like friendships with in that you know like friendships with AI systems there's too much meaningful AI systems there's too much meaningful AI systems there's too much meaningful human experiences to have with a systems human experiences to have with a systems human experiences to have with a systems that I just that I just that I just but that's like a tool right it's a bit

but that's like a tool right it's a bit but that's like a tool right it's a bit like a meditation tool right some people like a meditation tool right some people like a meditation tool right some people have a meditation tool it makes them have a meditation tool it makes them have a meditation tool it makes them feel better but I'm not sure you can feel better but I'm not sure you can feel better but I'm not sure you can ascribe sentience and legal rights to a ascribe sentience and legal rights to a ascribe sentience and legal rights to a chatbot that makes you feel less chatbot that makes you feel less chatbot that makes you feel less lonely uh sentience yes I think legal lonely uh sentience yes I think legal lonely uh sentience yes I think legal rights no I think it's the same you can rights no I think it's the same you can rights no I think it's the same you can have a really deep meaningful have a really deep meaningful have a really deep meaningful relationship with a dog and with the dog relationship with a dog and with the dog relationship with a dog and with the dog sent yes the chat bot's not not right sent yes the chat bot's not not right sent yes the chat bot's not not right now using the technology we use is not now using the technology we use is not now using the technology we use is not going to be going to be going to be sent ah this is going to be a fun sent ah this is going to be a fun sent ah this is going to be a fun continued conversation on uh Twitter continued conversation on uh Twitter continued conversation on uh Twitter that I look forward to that I look forward to that I look forward to uh since you've had also from another uh since you've had also from another uh since you've had also from another place some debates that were inspired by place some debates that were inspired by place some debates that were inspired by the assembly Theory paper let me ask you the assembly Theory paper let me ask you the assembly Theory paper let me ask you about God is there any room about God is there any room about God is there any room for Notions of God in assembly Theory um for Notions of God in assembly Theory um for Notions of God in assembly Theory um who God yeah I I don't know what God is who God yeah I I don't know what God is who God yeah I I don't know what God is a I mean so God exists in our mind a I mean so God exists in our mind a I mean so God exists in our mind created by created by created by selection so human beings have created selection so human beings have created selection so human beings have created the concept of God in the same way that the concept of God in the same way that the concept of God in the same way that human beings have create the concept of human beings have create the concept of human beings have create the concept of super super super intelligence sure but does it does it intelligence sure but does it does it intelligence sure but does it does it mean does it mean does it mean does it not it still could mean that that's a not it still could mean that that's a not it still could mean that that's a projection from The Real World where projection from The Real World where projection from The Real World where like we're just assigning words and like we're just assigning words and like we're just assigning words and Concepts to a thing that Concepts to a thing that Concepts to a thing that is fundamental to the real world that is fundamental to the real world that is fundamental to the real world that there is something out there that is a there is something out there that is a there is something out there that is a creative Force underlying the Universe

creative Force underlying the Universe creative Force underlying the Universe um I think the universe there is a um I think the universe there is a um I think the universe there is a creative force in the universe but I creative force in the universe but I creative force in the universe but I don't think it's it's Senti in I mean I don't think it's it's Senti in I mean I don't think it's it's Senti in I mean I think the so I do not understand the think the so I do not understand the think the so I do not understand the universe so who am I to say you know universe so who am I to say you know universe so who am I to say you know um that that God doesn't exist I am an um that that God doesn't exist I am an um that that God doesn't exist I am an atheist but I'm not an angry atheist atheist but I'm not an angry atheist atheist but I'm not an angry atheist right I have lots of I have lots of right I have lots of I have lots of right I have lots of I have lots of there are some people I know that angry there are some people I know that angry there are some people I know that angry atheist and say you know say that atheist and say you know say that atheist and say you know say that religious people are stupid I don't religious people are stupid I don't religious people are stupid I don't think that's the case um I have faith in think that's the case um I have faith in think that's the case um I have faith in some things CU I don't I mean when I was some things CU I don't I mean when I was some things CU I don't I mean when I was a kid I kept like you know was like I a kid I kept like you know was like I a kid I kept like you know was like I need to know what the charge of electron need to know what the charge of electron need to know what the charge of electron is like I can't measure the charge on is like I can't measure the charge on is like I can't measure the charge on electron that was you know I was just electron that was you know I was just electron that was you know I was just gave up and had Faith okay you know gave up and had Faith okay you know gave up and had Faith okay you know resists works so when it comes resists works so when it comes resists works so when it comes to I want to know why the universe is to I want to know why the universe is to I want to know why the universe is growing in the future and what humanity growing in the future and what humanity growing in the future and what humanity is going to become and I've seen that is going to become and I've seen that is going to become and I've seen that the the acquisition of the the acquisition of the the acquisition of knowledge via the generation of novelty knowledge via the generation of novelty knowledge via the generation of novelty to produce technology has uniformly made to produce technology has uniformly made to produce technology has uniformly made humans lives better MH I would love to humans lives better MH I would love to humans lives better MH I would love to continue that tradition continue that tradition continue that tradition and you said that there's that creative and you said that there's that creative and you said that there's that creative Force do do you think just to think on Force do do you think just to think on Force do do you think just to think on that point do you think there's a that point do you think there's a that point do you think there's a creative Force like is there like a creative Force like is there like a creative Force like is there like a thing like a thing like a thing like a driver that's like that's creating stuff driver that's like that's creating stuff driver that's like that's creating stuff yeah I think that so I think that and yeah I think that so I think that and yeah I think that so I think that and where what what is can you describe it where what what is can you describe it where what what is can you describe it like mathemat well I think selection I

like mathemat well I think selection I like mathemat well I think selection I think selection selection is divorce think selection selection is divorce think selection selection is divorce selection is the force in the universe selection is the force in the universe selection is the force in the universe that creates that creates that creates novelty so is selection somehow novelty so is selection somehow novelty so is selection somehow fundamental like what what yeah I think fundamental like what what yeah I think fundamental like what what yeah I think Persistence of objects that could Decay Persistence of objects that could Decay Persistence of objects that could Decay into nothing through operations that into nothing through operations that into nothing through operations that maintain that structure I mean think maintain that structure I mean think maintain that structure I mean think about it if um is it's amazing that about it if um is it's amazing that about it if um is it's amazing that things exist at all that we're just not things exist at all that we're just not things exist at all that we're just not a big commentarial mess yes so the fact a big commentarial mess yes so the fact a big commentarial mess yes so the fact and they exist and they I think that and they exist and they I think that and they exist and they I think that exist persistent time yeah may I mean exist persistent time yeah may I mean exist persistent time yeah may I mean let's think maybe the universe is let's think maybe the universe is let's think maybe the universe is actually in the present the things actually in the present the things actually in the present the things everything that can exist in the present everything that can exist in the present everything that can exist in the present does exist well that would mean is exist well that would mean is deterministic right no I think the deterministic right no I think the deterministic right no I think the universities might so the universe universities might so the universe universities might so the universe started super small the past was started super small the past was started super small the past was determined itic there wasn't much going determined itic there wasn't much going determined itic there wasn't much going on it was able to mine mine mine mine on it was able to mine mine mine mine on it was able to mine mine mine mine mine and so that the process I mean is mine and so that the process I mean is mine and so that the process I mean is um somehow um somehow um somehow generating um universe is generating um universe is generating um universe is basically I can't put I'm trying to put basically I can't put I'm trying to put basically I can't put I'm trying to put this into did you just say there's no this into did you just say there's no this into did you just say there's no free will though no I didn't say that as free will though no I didn't say that as free will though no I didn't say that as if Sor I said there is Free Will I think if Sor I said there is Free Will I think if Sor I said there is Free Will I think I think I I I'm saying that fre I think I I I'm saying that fre I think I I I'm saying that fre will occurs at the boundary between the will occurs at the boundary between the will occurs at the boundary between the the future the past and the future yeah the future the past and the future yeah the future the past and the future yeah I got you but everything that can exist

I got you but everything that can exist I got you but everything that can exist does exist everything that is so does exist everything that is so does exist everything that is so everything that's possible to exist at everything that's possible to exist at everything that's possible to exist at this so no I'm really put there's a lot this so no I'm really put there's a lot this so no I'm really put there's a lot of loaded words there in what I mean of loaded words there in what I mean of loaded words there in what I mean there's a time element loaded into that there's a time element loaded into that there's a time element loaded into that I I think that the universe is able to I I think that the universe is able to I I think that the universe is able to do what it can in the present right yeah do what it can in the present right yeah do what it can in the present right yeah and then I think in the future there are and then I think in the future there are and then I think in the future there are other things that could be possible we other things that could be possible we other things that could be possible we can imagine lots of things but they can imagine lots of things but they can imagine lots of things but they don't all happen sure so what that's don't all happen sure so what that's don't all happen sure so what that's what I guess sneak in Free Will right what I guess sneak in Free Will right what I guess sneak in Free Will right there yeah so I guess what I'm saying is there yeah so I guess what I'm saying is there yeah so I guess what I'm saying is what what what exists is a com is a what what what exists is a com is a what what what exists is a com is a convolution of the past with the present convolution of the past with the present convolution of the past with the present and the Free Will going into the future and the Free Will going into the future and the Free Will going into the future well we can still imagine stuff right we well we can still imagine stuff right we well we can still imagine stuff right we can imagine stuff that never happen and can imagine stuff that never happen and can imagine stuff that never happen and it's amazing Force because your imagina it's amazing Force because your imagina it's amazing Force because your imagina this is a the most important thing that this is a the most important thing that this is a the most important thing that we don't understand is our imaginations we don't understand is our imaginations we don't understand is our imaginations can actually change the future in a can actually change the future in a can actually change the future in a tangible way which is what the the tangible way which is what the the tangible way which is what the the initial conditions and physics cannot initial conditions and physics cannot initial conditions and physics cannot predict like your imagination has a predict like your imagination has a predict like your imagination has a causal consequence in the future isn't causal consequence in the future isn't causal consequence in the future isn't that weird too yeah how do yeah how do you it breaks breaks the laws of physics you it breaks breaks the laws of physics you it breaks breaks the laws of physics as we know them right as we know them right as we know them right now yeah so you think the imagination now yeah so you think the imagination now yeah so you think the imagination has a causal effect in the future yeah has a causal effect in the future yeah has a causal effect in the future yeah but it does exist in there in the head but it does exist in there in the head but it does exist in there in the head and there must be a lot of power in and there must be a lot of power in and there must be a lot of power in whatever's going on there could be a lot whatever's going on there could be a lot whatever's going on there could be a lot of power whatever's going on in there if of power whatever's going on in there if of power whatever's going on in there if we then go back to initial conditions

we then go back to initial conditions we then go back to initial conditions yeah and that is simply not possible yeah and that is simply not possible yeah and that is simply not possible that can happen but if we go into if we that can happen but if we go into if we that can happen but if we go into if we go into a universe where we accept that go into a universe where we accept that go into a universe where we accept that there is a finite ability to represent there is a finite ability to represent there is a finite ability to represent numbers and you have rounding well not numbers and you have rounding well not numbers and you have rounding well not rounding errors you have S the S what rounding errors you have S the S what rounding errors you have S the S what happens the your ability to make happens the your ability to make happens the your ability to make decisions imagine and do stuff is that decisions imagine and do stuff is that decisions imagine and do stuff is that that interface between the certain and that interface between the certain and that interface between the certain and the uncertain it's not as Yasha was the uncertain it's not as Yasha was the uncertain it's not as Yasha was saying to me Randomness goes and you saying to me Randomness goes and you saying to me Randomness goes and you just you know randomly do random stuff just you know randomly do random stuff just you know randomly do random stuff it is that you are set free a little on it is that you are set free a little on it is that you are set free a little on your trajectory Free Will is about being your trajectory Free Will is about being your trajectory Free Will is about being able to explore on this narrow able to explore on this narrow able to explore on this narrow trajectory um that allows you to build trajectory um that allows you to build trajectory um that allows you to build you have a choice about what you build you have a choice about what you build you have a choice about what you build or that choice is uh you interacting or that choice is uh you interacting or that choice is uh you interacting with a future in the with a future in the with a future in the present what do you is most beautiful present what do you is most beautiful present what do you is most beautiful about this whole about this whole about this whole thing the thing the thing the universe the the the fact it seems to be universe the the the fact it seems to be universe the the the fact it seems to be very undecided very open mhm and the very undecided very open mhm and the very undecided very open mhm and the fact that fact that fact that um every time I think I'm getting toward um every time I think I'm getting toward um every time I think I'm getting toward an answer to a question there are so an answer to a question there are so an answer to a question there are so many more questions that make the the many more questions that make the the many more questions that make the the chase you know um do you hate that it's chase you know um do you hate that it's chase you know um do you hate that it's going to be over at some point for you going to be over at some point for you going to be over at some point for you no I I well for me I don't so I I I I no I I well for me I don't so I I I I no I I well for me I don't so I I I I think if you think about it is it over think if you think about it is it over think if you think about it is it over for Newton for Newton for Newton now Newton has had causal consequences now Newton has had causal consequences now Newton has had causal consequences in the future we discuss him all the in the future we discuss him all the in the future we discuss him all the time his ideas but not the person the time his ideas but not the person the time his ideas but not the person the person just had a lot of causal power person just had a lot of causal power person just had a lot of causal power when he was alive but oh my God one of

when he was alive but oh my God one of when he was alive but oh my God one of the things I want to do is leave as many the things I want to do is leave as many the things I want to do is leave as many Easter eggs in the future when I'm gone Easter eggs in the future when I'm gone Easter eggs in the future when I'm gone to go oh that's cool would you be very to go oh that's cool would you be very to go oh that's cool would you be very upset if somebody made a like a good L upset if somebody made a like a good L upset if somebody made a like a good L large language model that's fine- tuned large language model that's fine- tuned large language model that's fine- tuned to Lee corner it would be quite boring to Lee corner it would be quite boring to Lee corner it would be quite boring because I mean I mean I I'm novelty because I mean I mean I I'm novelty because I mean I mean I I'm novelty generation I would I mean if it's a generation I would I mean if it's a generation I would I mean if it's a faithful representation of what I've faithful representation of what I've faithful representation of what I've done in my life that's great that's done in my life that's great that's done in my life that's great that's that's a interesting artifact but I that's a interesting artifact but I that's a interesting artifact but I think the most most interesting thing think the most most interesting thing think the most most interesting thing about knowing each other is we don't about knowing each other is we don't about knowing each other is we don't know what we're going to do next know what we're going to do next know what we're going to do next sure sure I mean within some constraints sure sure I mean within some constraints sure sure I mean within some constraints I've got you know you might I I can I've got you know you might I I can I've got you know you might I I can predict some things about you you can predict some things about you you can predict some things about you you can predict some things about me but we predict some things about me but we predict some things about me but we can't predict everything everything and can't predict everything everything and can't predict everything everything and it's because we can't predict everything it's because we can't predict everything it's because we can't predict everything is why we're exciting to come back and is why we're exciting to come back and is why we're exciting to come back and discuss and see it's so yeah I'm I'm I'm discuss and see it's so yeah I'm I'm I'm discuss and see it's so yeah I'm I'm I'm I'm kind of H I'm happy that it'll be I'm kind of H I'm happy that it'll be I'm kind of H I'm happy that it'll be interesting that some things I've done interesting that some things I've done interesting that some things I've done be captured but I'm pretty sure that my angle on mining novelty from the my angle on mining novelty from the future will not be future will not be future will not be captured captured captured yeah yeah yeah yeah so that that's what life is is just yeah so that that's what life is is just yeah so that that's what life is is just uh some novelty generation and you're uh some novelty generation and you're uh some novelty generation and you're done each one of us just generate a done each one of us just generate a done each one of us just generate a little bit I or have the capacity to at little bit I or have the capacity to at little bit I or have the capacity to at least I think life is a sele least I think life is a sele least I think life is a sele produces life and life affects universe produces life and life affects universe produces life and life affects universe and universes with life in them are and universes with life in them are and universes with life in them are materially physically fundamentally

materially physically fundamentally materially physically fundamentally different than universes of life and different than universes of life and different than universes of life and that's super interesting and I I have no that's super interesting and I I have no that's super interesting and I I have no beginnings of understanding I think beginnings of understanding I think beginnings of understanding I think maybe this is like in a thousand years maybe this is like in a thousand years maybe this is like in a thousand years there'll be a new discipline and the there'll be a new discipline and the there'll be a new discipline and the humans yeah of course this is how it all humans yeah of course this is how it all humans yeah of course this is how it all works right and um in retrospect it will works right and um in retrospect it will works right and um in retrospect it will all be obvious I think I think assembly all be obvious I think I think assembly all be obvious I think I think assembly theory is obvious that's why a lot of theory is obvious that's why a lot of theory is obvious that's why a lot of people got angry right they were like oh people got angry right they were like oh people got angry right they were like oh my God this is such nonsense yeah you my God this is such nonsense yeah you my God this is such nonsense yeah you know like oh yeah no actually it's not know like oh yeah no actually it's not know like oh yeah no actually it's not quite but the the writing's really quite but the the writing's really quite but the the writing's really bad well I can't wait to see where it bad well I can't wait to see where it bad well I can't wait to see where it evolves uh Le and I I'm glad I get to evolves uh Le and I I'm glad I get to evolves uh Le and I I'm glad I get to exist in this universe with you you're exist in this universe with you you're exist in this universe with you you're fascinating human this is always a fascinating human this is always a fascinating human this is always a pleasure I hope to talk to you many more pleasure I hope to talk to you many more pleasure I hope to talk to you many more many more times and I'm a huge fan of many more times and I'm a huge fan of many more times and I'm a huge fan of just watching you create stuff in this just watching you create stuff in this just watching you create stuff in this world and thank you for talking today world and thank you for talking today world and thank you for talking today it's a pleasure as always Lex thanks for it's a pleasure as always Lex thanks for it's a pleasure as always Lex thanks for having me on having me on having me on thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with Lee Ronin to support conversation with Lee Ronin to support conversation with Lee Ronin to support this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let sponsors in the description and now let sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from Carl me leave you with some words from Carl me leave you with some words from Carl Sean we can judge our progress by the Sean we can judge our progress by the Sean we can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth courage of our questions and the depth courage of our questions and the depth of our answers our willingness to of our answers our willingness to of our answers our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what embrace what is true rather than what embrace what is true rather than what feels good thank you for listening and feels good thank you for listening and feels good thank you for listening and hope to see you next time