Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320

the lesson i the lesson i would want everyone to take from the would want everyone to take from the would want everyone to take from the story of the first world war story of the first world war story of the first world war uh is uh is uh is that that that human life is not cheap human life is not cheap human life is not cheap um um um that all of the warring powers thought that all of the warring powers thought that all of the warring powers thought that just by throwing that just by throwing that just by throwing more men and more material at the front more men and more material at the front more men and more material at the front they would solve their political they would solve their political they would solve their political problems with military force problems with military force problems with military force and and and at the end of the day in 1918 one side at the end of the day in 1918 one side at the end of the day in 1918 one side did win that did win that did win that but it didn't actually solve any of but it didn't actually solve any of but it didn't actually solve any of those political problems he said that those political problems he said that those political problems he said that world war one gave birth to the world war one gave birth to the world war one gave birth to the surveillance state in the u.s surveillance state in the u.s surveillance state in the u.s can you explain the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with christopher capazola a historian at mit christopher capazola a historian at mit christopher capazola a historian at mit specializing in the history of politics specializing in the history of politics specializing in the history of politics and war in modern american history and war in modern american history and war in modern american history especially about the role of world war especially about the role of world war especially about the role of world war one in defining the trajectory of the one in defining the trajectory of the one in defining the trajectory of the united states and our human civilization united states and our human civilization united states and our human civilization in the 20th and 21st centuries in the 20th and 21st centuries in the 20th and 21st centuries this is the lex friedman podcast to this is the lex friedman podcast to this is the lex friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's christopher capazzola here's christopher capazzola here's christopher capazzola let's start with a big and difficult let's start with a big and difficult let's start with a big and difficult question how did world war one start question how did world war one start question how did world war one start on the one hand world war one started uh on the one hand world war one started uh on the one hand world war one started uh because of a series of events in the because of a series of events in the because of a series of events in the summer of 1914 summer of 1914 summer of 1914 that brought that brought that brought sort of the major powers of europe into sort of the major powers of europe into sort of the major powers of europe into conflict with one another but i actually conflict with one another but i actually conflict with one another but i actually think it's more useful think it's more useful think it's more useful to say that world war one started at

to say that world war one started at to say that world war one started at least a generation earlier least a generation earlier least a generation earlier when when when rising powers particularly germany rising powers particularly germany rising powers particularly germany started devoting more and more of their started devoting more and more of their started devoting more and more of their resources toward military affairs and resources toward military affairs and resources toward military affairs and naval affairs this sets off an arms race naval affairs this sets off an arms race naval affairs this sets off an arms race in europe it sets off a rivalry in europe it sets off a rivalry in europe it sets off a rivalry over the colonial world and who will over the colonial world and who will over the colonial world and who will control the resources in africa and asia control the resources in africa and asia control the resources in africa and asia and so by the time you get to the summer and so by the time you get to the summer and so by the time you get to the summer of 1914 and in a lot of ways i say the of 1914 and in a lot of ways i say the of 1914 and in a lot of ways i say the war has already begun and this is just war has already begun and this is just war has already begun and this is just the match that lights the flame so the the match that lights the flame so the the match that lights the flame so the capacity for war was brewing within like capacity for war was brewing within like capacity for war was brewing within like the the leaders and within the populace the the leaders and within the populace the the leaders and within the populace they started accepting they started accepting they started accepting sort of slowly through the culture sort of slowly through the culture sort of slowly through the culture propagated this idea propagated this idea propagated this idea that that that we can go to war we can go to war we can go to war it's a good idea to go to war it's a good idea to go to war it's a good idea to go to war it's a good idea to expand and dominate it's a good idea to expand and dominate it's a good idea to expand and dominate others that kind of thing maybe not put others that kind of thing maybe not put others that kind of thing maybe not put in those clear terms but just a sense in those clear terms but just a sense in those clear terms but just a sense that military action is the way that that military action is the way that that military action is the way that nations operate at the global scale nations operate at the global scale nations operate at the global scale yes yes and right so yes um there's a yes yes and right so yes um there's a yes yes and right so yes um there's a sense that the military can be the sense that the military can be the sense that the military can be the solution to political conflict uh in solution to political conflict uh in solution to political conflict uh in europe itself europe itself europe itself and the and is that war and military and the and is that war and military and the and is that war and military conflict are already happening right uh conflict are already happening right uh conflict are already happening right uh that there's war particularly in africa that there's war particularly in africa that there's war particularly in africa in north africa in the middle east you in north africa in the middle east you in north africa in the middle east you know balkans conflict is already know balkans conflict is already know balkans conflict is already underway underway underway and the european powers haven't faced and the european powers haven't faced and the european powers haven't faced off against each other they've usually off against each other they've usually off against each other they've usually faced off against an asymmetrical faced off against an asymmetrical faced off against an asymmetrical conflict against much less powerful

conflict against much less powerful conflict against much less powerful states states states but you know in some ways that that war but you know in some ways that that war but you know in some ways that that war is already underway is already underway is already underway so do you think so do you think so do you think it was inevitable because world war one it was inevitable because world war one it was inevitable because world war one is brought up as a case study where it is brought up as a case study where it is brought up as a case study where it seems like a few seems like a few seems like a few accidental leaders and a few accidental accidental leaders and a few accidental accidental leaders and a few accidental events or one accidental event led to events or one accidental event led to events or one accidental event led to the war and if you change that one the war and if you change that one the war and if you change that one little thing you could have avoided the little thing you could have avoided the little thing you could have avoided the war your senses war your senses war your senses the the the drums of war have been the the the drums of war have been the the the drums of war have been beating for quite a while and it would beating for quite a while and it would beating for quite a while and it would have happened almost no matter what or have happened almost no matter what or have happened almost no matter what or very likely to have happened yes very likely to have happened yes very likely to have happened yes historians never like to say things are historians never like to say things are historians never like to say things are inevitable um and certainly you know inevitable um and certainly you know inevitable um and certainly you know there were people who could have chosen there were people who could have chosen there were people who could have chosen a different path both in the short term a different path both in the short term a different path both in the short term and the long term and the long term and the long term but fundamentally there were but fundamentally there were but fundamentally there were irreconcilable conflicts in the system irreconcilable conflicts in the system irreconcilable conflicts in the system of empires in the world in 1914 of empires in the world in 1914 of empires in the world in 1914 i can't see i can't see i can't see you know it didn't have to be this war you know it didn't have to be this war you know it didn't have to be this war but it had it probably had to be a war but it had it probably had to be a war but it had it probably had to be a war so there was the german empire the so there was the german empire the so there was the german empire the austro-hungarian empire austro-hungarian empire austro-hungarian empire there was france and great britain there was france and great britain there was france and great britain us could usp call that empire at that us could usp call that empire at that us could usp call that empire at that moment yet moment yet moment yet when do you graduate when do you graduate when do you graduate to empire status um well certainly after to empire status um well certainly after to empire status um well certainly after after 1898 with the acquisition of the after 1898 with the acquisition of the after 1898 with the acquisition of the former territories of the spanish empire former territories of the spanish empire former territories of the spanish empire you know the united states has formal you know the united states has formal you know the united states has formal colonial possessions um and it has sort colonial possessions um and it has sort colonial possessions um and it has sort of mindsets of of rule and military of mindsets of of rule and military of mindsets of of rule and military acquisition that would define em empire acquisition that would define em empire acquisition that would define em empire in a kind of more informal sense so you in a kind of more informal sense so you in a kind of more informal sense so you would say you would put the blame

would say you would put the blame would say you would put the blame or the responsibility or the responsibility or the responsibility of starting world war one into the hands of starting world war one into the hands of starting world war one into the hands of the german empire and kaiser wilhelm of the german empire and kaiser wilhelm of the german empire and kaiser wilhelm ii ii ii you know you know you know that's a really uh tough call to make um that's a really uh tough call to make um that's a really uh tough call to make um and you know that deciding that is going and you know that deciding that is going and you know that deciding that is going to keep historians in business for the to keep historians in business for the to keep historians in business for the next 200 years and next 200 years and next 200 years and i think i think i think there there there are people who would lay all of the are people who would lay all of the are people who would lay all of the blame um on the germans right and you blame um on the germans right and you blame um on the germans right and you know who would point toward a generation know who would point toward a generation know who would point toward a generation of arms buildup you know alliances that of arms buildup you know alliances that of arms buildup you know alliances that that germany made and promises that they that germany made and promises that they that germany made and promises that they made to uh to their allies in the made to uh to their allies in the made to uh to their allies in the balkans um to the austro-hungarians balkans um to the austro-hungarians balkans um to the austro-hungarians um and so yes there's an awful lot of um and so yes there's an awful lot of um and so yes there's an awful lot of responsibility there um responsibility there um responsibility there um there has been a trend lately to say um there has been a trend lately to say um there has been a trend lately to say um no it's no one's fault right that uh you no it's no one's fault right that uh you no it's no one's fault right that uh you know that all of the various powers know that all of the various powers know that all of the various powers literally were sleepwalking into the war literally were sleepwalking into the war literally were sleepwalking into the war right they backed into it inadvertently right they backed into it inadvertently right they backed into it inadvertently i think that lets everyone a little too i think that lets everyone a little too i think that lets everyone a little too much off the hook right and so i think much off the hook right and so i think much off the hook right and so i think in between in between in between is uh you know i would put the blame on is uh you know i would put the blame on is uh you know i would put the blame on the system of empires itself on the the system of empires itself on the the system of empires itself on the system system system but in that system the actor that sort but in that system the actor that sort but in that system the actor that sort of carries the most responsibility is of carries the most responsibility is of carries the most responsibility is definitely imperial germany so definitely imperial germany so definitely imperial germany so the the the leader of ultra hungarian empire france leader of ultra hungarian empire france leader of ultra hungarian empire france joseph the first joseph the first joseph the first his nephews archduke franz ferdinand he his nephews archduke franz ferdinand he his nephews archduke franz ferdinand he was assassinated and so that and so that didn't have to lead to a war

didn't have to lead to a war didn't have to lead to a war and then and then and then the the leader of the german empire the the leader of the german empire the the leader of the german empire geyser wilhelm ii geyser wilhelm ii geyser wilhelm ii pressured sort of pressured sort of pressured sort of uh uh uh started talking trash started talking trash started talking trash um and um and um and boiling the water that ultimately boiling the water that ultimately boiling the water that ultimately resulted in the explosion resulted in the explosion resulted in the explosion um plus all the other players so what um plus all the other players so what um plus all the other players so what can you describe the dynamics of how can you describe the dynamics of how can you describe the dynamics of how that unrolled what us what's the role of that unrolled what us what's the role of that unrolled what us what's the role of the us what's the role of france what's the us what's the role of france what's the us what's the role of france what's the role of great britain germany and the role of great britain germany and the role of great britain germany and also hungarian empire also hungarian empire also hungarian empire yeah over the course of about uh four yeah over the course of about uh four yeah over the course of about uh four weeks right following the assassination weeks right following the assassination weeks right following the assassination of uh of the archduke um in sarajevo of uh of the archduke um in sarajevo of uh of the archduke um in sarajevo um it sort of triggers a series of um it sort of triggers a series of um it sort of triggers a series of political conflicts and ultimately political conflicts and ultimately political conflicts and ultimately ultimatums ultimatums ultimatums sort of demanding sort of demanding sort of demanding sort of that that one or other power sort of that that one or other power sort of that that one or other power sort of stand down in response to to the sort of stand down in response to to the sort of stand down in response to to the demands of either demands of either demands of either you know britain france or or in turn you know britain france or or in turn you know britain france or or in turn germany or russia at the same time that germany or russia at the same time that germany or russia at the same time that those alliances kind of trigger those alliances kind of trigger those alliances kind of trigger automatic responses from the other side automatic responses from the other side automatic responses from the other side and so it escalates um and once that and so it escalates um and once that and so it escalates um and once that escalation is combined with the call up escalation is combined with the call up escalation is combined with the call up of military troops of military troops of military troops then none of those powers wants to be then none of those powers wants to be then none of those powers wants to be sort of the last one to kind of get sort of the last one to kind of get sort of the last one to kind of get ready for conflict so even throughout it ready for conflict so even throughout it ready for conflict so even throughout it they are they think they are getting they are they think they are getting they are they think they are getting ready in a defensive ready in a defensive ready in a defensive maneuver maneuver maneuver and they if they think if there is and they if they think if there is and they if they think if there is conflict well it might be a skirmish it conflict well it might be a skirmish it conflict well it might be a skirmish it might be you know sort of a standoff

might be you know sort of a standoff might be you know sort of a standoff uh it could be solved with diplomacy uh it could be solved with diplomacy uh it could be solved with diplomacy later because diplomacy's failing now um later because diplomacy's failing now um later because diplomacy's failing now um that turns out not to be the case that turns out not to be the case that turns out not to be the case diplomacy fails it's not a skirmish it diplomacy fails it's not a skirmish it diplomacy fails it's not a skirmish it becomes a massive war and the americans becomes a massive war and the americans becomes a massive war and the americans are watching all of this from the are watching all of this from the are watching all of this from the sidelines they have very little sidelines they have very little sidelines they have very little influence over what happens that summer influence over what happens that summer influence over what happens that summer how does it go from a skirmish between a how does it go from a skirmish between a how does it go from a skirmish between a few nations few nations few nations to a global war to a global war to a global war is there a place where there's a phase is there a place where there's a phase is there a place where there's a phase transition transition transition yeah i think the phase transition is in yeah i think the phase transition is in yeah i think the phase transition is in over the course of the fall of 1914 over the course of the fall of 1914 over the course of the fall of 1914 um when the germans make an initial sort um when the germans make an initial sort um when the germans make an initial sort of bold move into france of bold move into france of bold move into france in many ways they're fighting the last in many ways they're fighting the last in many ways they're fighting the last war the franco-prussian war um of 18 of war the franco-prussian war um of 18 of war the franco-prussian war um of 18 of 1870 1870 1870 and they really do sort of you know kind and they really do sort of you know kind and they really do sort of you know kind of want to of want to of want to have a quick sort of have a quick sort of have a quick sort of lightning strike in some ways against lightning strike in some ways against lightning strike in some ways against france um to kind of bring the war to a france um to kind of bring the war to a france um to kind of bring the war to a speedy conclusion speedy conclusion speedy conclusion uh france turns out to be able to fight uh france turns out to be able to fight uh france turns out to be able to fight back more effectively than the germans back more effectively than the germans back more effectively than the germans expected expected expected um and then uh the battle lines sort of um and then uh the battle lines sort of um and then uh the battle lines sort of harden harden harden and then behind that uh the the the and then behind that uh the the the and then behind that uh the the the french and the germans as well as the french and the germans as well as the french and the germans as well as the british on british on british on the side of the french the side of the french the side of the french start digging in literally right and start digging in literally right and start digging in literally right and digging trenches trenches that at first digging trenches trenches that at first digging trenches trenches that at first are you know are you know are you know three feet deep to you know to avoid three feet deep to you know to avoid three feet deep to you know to avoid shelling from artillery then become six shelling from artillery then become six shelling from artillery then become six feet ten feet deep you know two miles feet ten feet deep you know two miles feet ten feet deep you know two miles wide um that include telegraph wires

wide um that include telegraph wires wide um that include telegraph wires that include whole hospitals in the back that include whole hospitals in the back that include whole hospitals in the back and then at that point um you know the and then at that point um you know the and then at that point um you know the the front is is locked in place and the the front is is locked in place and the the front is is locked in place and the only way to break that is sort of only way to break that is sort of only way to break that is sort of basically dialing the war up to 11. basically dialing the war up to 11. basically dialing the war up to 11. right sort of massive numbers of troops right sort of massive numbers of troops right sort of massive numbers of troops massive efforts um massive efforts um massive efforts um none of which work right and so the war none of which work right and so the war none of which work right and so the war is stuck in this but that's the is stuck in this but that's the is stuck in this but that's the that's the phase transition right there that's the phase transition right there that's the phase transition right there what were the machines of war what were the machines of war what were the machines of war in that case you mentioned trenches in that case you mentioned trenches in that case you mentioned trenches what were the guns used what were the guns used what were the guns used what was the size of guns what are we what was the size of guns what are we what was the size of guns what are we talking about what what did germany talking about what what did germany talking about what what did germany start start start accumulating that led up to this war accumulating that led up to this war accumulating that led up to this war one of the things that we see one of the things that we see one of the things that we see immediately immediately immediately is the industrial revolution of the is the industrial revolution of the is the industrial revolution of the previous 30 or 40 years previous 30 or 40 years previous 30 or 40 years brought to bear on warfare brought to bear on warfare brought to bear on warfare right and so you see sort of machine right and so you see sort of machine right and so you see sort of machine guns you see artillery uh you know these guns you see artillery uh you know these guns you see artillery uh you know these are the kind of the the key weapons of are the kind of the the key weapons of are the kind of the the key weapons of war on both sides right the vast war on both sides right the vast war on both sides right the vast majority of battlefield casualties are majority of battlefield casualties are majority of battlefield casualties are from artillery shelling from one side to from artillery shelling from one side to from artillery shelling from one side to another um not you know sort of rifle or another um not you know sort of rifle or another um not you know sort of rifle or or even sort of you know machine gun or even sort of you know machine gun or even sort of you know machine gun kind of uh attacks kind of uh attacks kind of uh attacks in some ways the weapons of war are in some ways the weapons of war are in some ways the weapons of war are are human beings right um you know tens are human beings right um you know tens are human beings right um you know tens of thousands of them poured over the top of thousands of them poured over the top of thousands of them poured over the top in these sort of waves to kind of try to in these sort of waves to kind of try to in these sort of waves to kind of try to break through the enemy lines and it break through the enemy lines and it break through the enemy lines and it would work for a little while um you would work for a little while um you would work for a little while um you know but but holding the territory that know but but holding the territory that know but but holding the territory that had been gained often proved to be even

had been gained often proved to be even had been gained often proved to be even more demanding than gaining it and so more demanding than gaining it and so more demanding than gaining it and so often um you know each side would often um you know each side would often um you know each side would retreat back into the trenches and wait retreat back into the trenches and wait retreat back into the trenches and wait for another day for another day for another day and how did and how did and how did russia russia russia how did britain how did britain how did britain how did how did how did france get pulled into the war i suppose france get pulled into the war i suppose france get pulled into the war i suppose the france one is the easy one but what the france one is the easy one but what the france one is the easy one but what what is the order of events here right what is the order of events here right what is the order of events here right it becomes a global war yeah so britain it becomes a global war yeah so britain it becomes a global war yeah so britain france and and russia uh are at this france and and russia uh are at this france and and russia uh are at this time and in there an alliance um and so time and in there an alliance um and so time and in there an alliance um and so the the conflicts you know in the summer the the conflicts you know in the summer the the conflicts you know in the summer of 1914 that lead uh sort of to the of 1914 that lead uh sort of to the of 1914 that lead uh sort of to the declarations of war happened sort of one declarations of war happened sort of one declarations of war happened sort of one after another right um at the in august after another right um at the in august after another right um at the in august of in late august of of in late august of of in late august of and all three powers essentially come in and all three powers essentially come in and all three powers essentially come in at the same time at the same time at the same time because they have promised to do so because they have promised to do so because they have promised to do so through a series of alliances through a series of alliances through a series of alliances conducted secretly in the years before conducted secretly in the years before conducted secretly in the years before 1914 that committed them to defend one 1914 that committed them to defend one 1914 that committed them to defend one another uh germany austria hungary and another uh germany austria hungary and another uh germany austria hungary and the ottoman empire have their own sort the ottoman empire have their own sort the ottoman empire have their own sort of set of secret of set of secret of set of secret agreements that also commit them to agreements that also commit them to agreements that also commit them to defend one another defend one another defend one another and what this does is it sort of brings and what this does is it sort of brings and what this does is it sort of brings them all into into conflict at the exact them all into into conflict at the exact them all into into conflict at the exact same moment same moment same moment they're also for many of these countries they're also for many of these countries they're also for many of these countries bringing not just their their national bringing not just their their national bringing not just their their national armies uh but also their empires into armies uh but also their empires into armies uh but also their empires into the conflict right so britain and france the conflict right so britain and france the conflict right so britain and france of course have you know enormous uh sort of course have you know enormous uh sort of course have you know enormous uh sort of global empires they begin mobilizing of global empires they begin mobilizing of global empires they begin mobilizing soldiers as well as raw materials soldiers as well as raw materials soldiers as well as raw materials germany uh has you know less of an

germany uh has you know less of an germany uh has you know less of an overseas empire russia and the ottoman overseas empire russia and the ottoman overseas empire russia and the ottoman empire of course have their own sort of empire of course have their own sort of empire of course have their own sort of hinterland um you know within the empire hinterland um you know within the empire hinterland um you know within the empire and very soon you know sort of all of and very soon you know sort of all of and very soon you know sort of all of the warring powers are are bringing the the warring powers are are bringing the the warring powers are are bringing the entire world into into the conflict did entire world into into the conflict did entire world into into the conflict did they have a sense of how deadly the war they have a sense of how deadly the war they have a sense of how deadly the war is i mean this is another is i mean this is another is i mean this is another scale of death and destruction scale of death and destruction scale of death and destruction at the beginning no but very quickly um at the beginning no but very quickly um at the beginning no but very quickly um the scale of the devastation of these the scale of the devastation of these the scale of the devastation of these sort of massive over-the-top uh attacks sort of massive over-the-top uh attacks sort of massive over-the-top uh attacks on the trenches is apparent to the on the trenches is apparent to the on the trenches is apparent to the military officers and it very quickly military officers and it very quickly military officers and it very quickly becomes apparent even at home becomes apparent even at home becomes apparent even at home you know there is of course censorship you know there is of course censorship you know there is of course censorship of the battlefield and and you know of the battlefield and and you know of the battlefield and and you know specific details don't reach people specific details don't reach people specific details don't reach people but you know for civilians in in any of but you know for civilians in in any of but you know for civilians in in any of the the warring powers they know fairly the the warring powers they know fairly the the warring powers they know fairly soon soon soon how destructive the war is how destructive the war is how destructive the war is and to me that's always been a real sort and to me that's always been a real sort and to me that's always been a real sort of um of um of um puzzle puzzle puzzle right so that by the time the united right so that by the time the united right so that by the time the united states comes to decide whether to join states comes to decide whether to join states comes to decide whether to join the war in 1917 they know what exactly the war in 1917 they know what exactly the war in 1917 they know what exactly what they're getting into right they're what they're getting into right they're what they're getting into right they're not backing into the war in the ways not backing into the war in the ways not backing into the war in the ways that the european powers did that the european powers did that the european powers did you know they've seen the devastation you know they've seen the devastation you know they've seen the devastation they've seen photographs they've seen photographs they've seen photographs they've seen injured soldiers um and they've seen injured soldiers um and they've seen injured soldiers um and they make that choice anyway when you they make that choice anyway when you they make that choice anyway when you say they do you mean the leaders of the say they do you mean the leaders of the say they do you mean the leaders of the people did uh the the the death and destruction reach the death and destruction reach the death and destruction reach the minds of the american people by that the minds of the american people by that the minds of the american people by that time uh yes absolutely you know the the time uh yes absolutely you know the the time uh yes absolutely you know the the we don't in 1917 have the mass media

we don't in 1917 have the mass media we don't in 1917 have the mass media that we have now but um but you know that we have now but um but you know that we have now but um but you know there are images in newspapers there are there are images in newspapers there are there are images in newspapers there are newsreels that play at the movie newsreels that play at the movie newsreels that play at the movie theaters um and of course some of it is theaters um and of course some of it is theaters um and of course some of it is sanitized but sanitized but sanitized but but that combined with but that combined with but that combined with press accounts often really quite press accounts often really quite press accounts often really quite descriptive press accounts gory accounts descriptive press accounts gory accounts descriptive press accounts gory accounts reached you know anyone who cared to reached you know anyone who cared to reached you know anyone who cared to read them you know certainly plenty of read them you know certainly plenty of read them you know certainly plenty of people didn't follow the news felt it people didn't follow the news felt it people didn't follow the news felt it was far away was far away was far away but but most americans who cared about but but most americans who cared about but but most americans who cared about the news knew how devastating this war the news knew how devastating this war the news knew how devastating this war was was was yeah there's something that happens yeah there's something that happens yeah there's something that happens that i recently visited ukraine for a that i recently visited ukraine for a that i recently visited ukraine for a few weeks few weeks few weeks there's something that happens there's something that happens there's something that happens with the human mind as you get with the human mind as you get with the human mind as you get away from the actual front where the away from the actual front where the away from the actual front where the bullets are flying bullets are flying bullets are flying like literally one kilometer away you like literally one kilometer away you like literally one kilometer away you start to not feel the war there you'll start to not feel the war there you'll start to not feel the war there you'll hear an explosion you'll see an hear an explosion you'll see an hear an explosion you'll see an explosion you start to like get it explosion you start to like get it explosion you start to like get it assimilated to it or you start to get assimilated to it or you start to get assimilated to it or you start to get used to it and then when you get as far used to it and then when you get as far used to it and then when you get as far away from like currently what is kiev away from like currently what is kiev away from like currently what is kiev you start to you know the war is going you start to you know the war is going you start to you know the war is going on everybody around you is fighting in on everybody around you is fighting in on everybody around you is fighting in that war that war that war but it's still somehow distant and i but it's still somehow distant and i but it's still somehow distant and i think with the united states think with the united states think with the united states with the ocean between with the ocean between with the ocean between even if you have the stories everywhere even if you have the stories everywhere even if you have the stories everywhere it still is somehow distant like the way it still is somehow distant like the way it still is somehow distant like the way a movie is maybe a movie is maybe a movie is maybe yeah like a movie or a video game it's yeah like a movie or a video game it's yeah like a movie or a video game it's somewhere else even if your loved ones somewhere else even if your loved ones somewhere else even if your loved ones are going or you are going to fight

are going or you are going to fight are going or you are going to fight yeah that is absolutely the case and in yeah that is absolutely the case and in yeah that is absolutely the case and in some ways that's true even for the home some ways that's true even for the home some ways that's true even for the home fronts in in europe you know except for fronts in in europe you know except for fronts in in europe you know except for the areas where the areas where the areas where you know in belgium and france where the you know in belgium and france where the you know in belgium and france where the the war is you know right there in your the war is you know right there in your the war is you know right there in your backyard backyard backyard for other people yeah there's a there's for other people yeah there's a there's for other people yeah there's a there's a distance and a distance and a distance and soldiers of course feel this very soldiers of course feel this very soldiers of course feel this very strongly when they uh european soldiers strongly when they uh european soldiers strongly when they uh european soldiers when they're able to go home on leave when they're able to go home on leave when they're able to go home on leave often you know deeply resent the you often you know deeply resent the you often you know deeply resent the you know the know the know the what they see as the luxury that that what they see as the luxury that that what they see as the luxury that that civilians are living in during the war civilians are living in during the war civilians are living in during the war so how did us enter the war so how did us enter the war so how did us enter the war who was the president who was the president who was the president what was the dynamics involved what was the dynamics involved what was the dynamics involved and um and um and um could it have stayed out could it have stayed out could it have stayed out to answer your last question first yes to answer your last question first yes to answer your last question first yes right um that the united states could right um that the united states could right um that the united states could have uh could have stayed out of the have uh could have stayed out of the have uh could have stayed out of the first world war first world war first world war as a military power as a military power as a military power the united states could not have ignored the united states could not have ignored the united states could not have ignored the war completely right it shaped the war completely right it shaped the war completely right it shaped everything right it shaped everything right it shaped everything right it shaped it shaped trade it shaped goods and it shaped trade it shaped goods and it shaped trade it shaped goods and services agriculture you know whether services agriculture you know whether services agriculture you know whether you know there was a crop coming whether you know there was a crop coming whether you know there was a crop coming whether there were immigrants coming across the there were immigrants coming across the there were immigrants coming across the atlantic to work in american factories atlantic to work in american factories atlantic to work in american factories right so the u.s can't ignore the war right so the u.s can't ignore the war right so the u.s can't ignore the war but the u.s makes a choice in 1917 to but the u.s makes a choice in 1917 to but the u.s makes a choice in 1917 to enter the war enter the war enter the war by declaring war right on on germany and by declaring war right on on germany and by declaring war right on on germany and austria austria austria uh and in that sense um uh and in that sense um uh and in that sense um this is a war of choice um but it's it's this is a war of choice um but it's it's this is a war of choice um but it's it's kicked off by a series of events kicked off by a series of events kicked off by a series of events right so uh president woodrow wilson um

right so uh president woodrow wilson um right so uh president woodrow wilson um has been president through the this has been president through the this has been president through the this entire period of time entire period of time entire period of time uh he has just run uh in the 1916 uh he has just run uh in the 1916 uh he has just run uh in the 1916 presidential election on a campaign to presidential election on a campaign to presidential election on a campaign to keep the united states out of war keep the united states out of war keep the united states out of war um but then in early 1917 the germans in um but then in early 1917 the germans in um but then in early 1917 the germans in some ways um sort of twist the americans some ways um sort of twist the americans some ways um sort of twist the americans arms arms arms right the the germans uh sort of high right the the germans uh sort of high right the the germans uh sort of high command comes to understand that you command comes to understand that you command comes to understand that you know that they're stuck know that they're stuck know that they're stuck right uh that they you know they're right uh that they you know they're right uh that they you know they're stuck in this trench warfare they need a stuck in this trench warfare they need a stuck in this trench warfare they need a big breakthrough their one big chance is big breakthrough their one big chance is big breakthrough their one big chance is to kind of as to sort of break the to kind of as to sort of break the to kind of as to sort of break the blockade and to push through uh that blockade and to push through uh that blockade and to push through uh that that the british have imposed on them to that the british have imposed on them to that the british have imposed on them to break the uh breakthrough against um break the uh breakthrough against um break the uh breakthrough against um against france and so they they do against france and so they they do against france and so they they do and along with this they start sinking and along with this they start sinking and along with this they start sinking ships on the atlantic including american ships on the atlantic including american ships on the atlantic including american ships the germans know full well this ships the germans know full well this ships the germans know full well this will draw the united states into war will draw the united states into war will draw the united states into war but the germans look at the united but the germans look at the united but the germans look at the united states at this moment a relatively small states at this moment a relatively small states at this moment a relatively small army a relatively small navy a country army a relatively small navy a country army a relatively small navy a country that at least on paper is deeply divided that at least on paper is deeply divided that at least on paper is deeply divided about whether to join the war about whether to join the war about whether to join the war and so they say and so they say and so they say let's do it right they're not going to let's do it right they're not going to let's do it right they're not going to get any american soldiers there in time get any american soldiers there in time get any american soldiers there in time right uh you know it was a gamble right uh you know it was a gamble right uh you know it was a gamble but but but i think uh probably the their best i think uh probably the their best i think uh probably the their best chance chance chance they took that gamble they they lost they took that gamble they they lost they took that gamble they they lost right in part because french resistance right in part because french resistance right in part because french resistance was strong in part because americans was strong in part because americans was strong in part because americans mobilized much faster and in much mobilized much faster and in much mobilized much faster and in much greater numbers than the germans thought greater numbers than the germans thought greater numbers than the germans thought they would so the american people were

they would so the american people were they would so the american people were divided the american people were divided the american people were divided the american people were absolutely divided about whether to absolutely divided about whether to absolutely divided about whether to enter this war right from 1914 to 1917 enter this war right from 1914 to 1917 enter this war right from 1914 to 1917 there is a searing debate there is a searing debate there is a searing debate across the political spectrum it doesn't across the political spectrum it doesn't across the political spectrum it doesn't break down easily on party lines break down easily on party lines break down easily on party lines about whether it was in the us interest about whether it was in the us interest about whether it was in the us interest to do this whether american troops to do this whether american troops to do this whether american troops should be sent abroad should be sent abroad should be sent abroad whether you know whether you know whether you know americans would end up just being cannon americans would end up just being cannon americans would end up just being cannon fodder for the european empires um fodder for the european empires um fodder for the european empires um eventually eventually eventually as americans ships are sunk um first in as americans ships are sunk um first in as americans ships are sunk um first in the lusitania in 1915 then in much the lusitania in 1915 then in much the lusitania in 1915 then in much greater numbers in 1917 um you know that greater numbers in 1917 um you know that greater numbers in 1917 um you know that the tide starts to turn and americans the tide starts to turn and americans the tide starts to turn and americans feel that you know our response is feel that you know our response is feel that you know our response is necessary and the actual declaration of necessary and the actual declaration of necessary and the actual declaration of war in congress is pretty lopsided but war in congress is pretty lopsided but war in congress is pretty lopsided but it's not unanimous by any means it's not unanimous by any means it's not unanimous by any means lopsided towards so i was entering the lopsided towards so i was entering the lopsided towards so i was entering the war yeah yeah war yeah yeah war yeah yeah well that's really interesting well that's really interesting well that's really interesting because uh because uh because uh there's echoes of that in in later wars there's echoes of that in in later wars there's echoes of that in in later wars where congress seems to where congress seems to where congress seems to nobody wants to be the guy that says no nobody wants to be the guy that says no nobody wants to be the guy that says no to war to war to war for some reason once you sense that for some reason once you sense that for some reason once you sense that in terms of sorry in terms of the in terms of sorry in terms of the in terms of sorry in terms of the politicians politicians politicians because then you appear weak but i will because then you appear weak but i will because then you appear weak but i will i wonder if that was always the case i wonder if that was always the case i wonder if that was always the case so you make the case that world war one so you make the case that world war one so you make the case that world war one is largely responsible for is largely responsible for is largely responsible for defining what it means to be an american defining what it means to be an american defining what it means to be an american citizen citizen citizen so in which way so in which way so in which way does it define the american citizen

does it define the american citizen does it define the american citizen when you think about citizenship what it when you think about citizenship what it when you think about citizenship what it means is two things first of all what means is two things first of all what means is two things first of all what are your rights and obligations what is are your rights and obligations what is are your rights and obligations what is sort of the legal citizenship that you sort of the legal citizenship that you sort of the legal citizenship that you have as a citizen of the united states have as a citizen of the united states have as a citizen of the united states or any other state or any other state or any other state and the second is a more amorphous and the second is a more amorphous and the second is a more amorphous definition of like what does it mean to definition of like what does it mean to definition of like what does it mean to belong right to be part of america right belong right to be part of america right belong right to be part of america right to feel american to uh you know to love to feel american to uh you know to love to feel american to uh you know to love it or hate it or be willing to die for it or hate it or be willing to die for it or hate it or be willing to die for it right it right it right and both of those things really are and both of those things really are and both of those things really are crystal clear crystal clear crystal clear in terms of their importance during the in terms of their importance during the in terms of their importance during the war war war right so both of those things are on the right so both of those things are on the right so both of those things are on the table table table being a citizen who is a citizen who being a citizen who is a citizen who being a citizen who is a citizen who isn't isn't isn't matters so people who had never carried matters so people who had never carried matters so people who had never carried passports or or you know any anything passports or or you know any anything passports or or you know any anything before suddenly have to before suddenly have to before suddenly have to but also what it means to be an american but also what it means to be an american but also what it means to be an american right uh to feel like it to be part of right uh to feel like it to be part of right uh to feel like it to be part of this project is also kind of being this project is also kind of being this project is also kind of being defined and enforced during world war defined and enforced during world war defined and enforced during world war one so project you know is a funny way one so project you know is a funny way one so project you know is a funny way to put a global war right to put a global war right to put a global war right so uh can you tell the story perhaps so uh can you tell the story perhaps so uh can you tell the story perhaps that's a good example of it of the that's a good example of it of the that's a good example of it of the james montgomery flags 1916 poster james montgomery flags 1916 poster james montgomery flags 1916 poster that reads i want you right a lot of that reads i want you right a lot of that reads i want you right a lot of people know this poster people know this poster people know this poster i think i think i think in its original form it's mimified form in its original form it's mimified form in its original form it's mimified form i don't know but we know this poster and i don't know but we know this poster and i don't know but we know this poster and we don't know where it came from or most we don't know where it came from or most we don't know where it came from or most americans i think americans i think americans i think me included didn't know where it came me included didn't know where it came me included didn't know where it came from and it actually comes from 1916.

from and it actually comes from 1916. from and it actually comes from 1916. does this post represent does this post represent does this post represent the birth of something the birth of something the birth of something new in america new in america new in america which is a uh commodification or uh commodification or i don't know that propaganda machine i don't know that propaganda machine i don't know that propaganda machine that says what it means to be an that says what it means to be an that says what it means to be an american american american is somebody that fights for their is somebody that fights for their is somebody that fights for their country country country yeah so the image yeah so the image yeah so the image it's in fact i think one of the most it's in fact i think one of the most it's in fact i think one of the most recognizable images not only in the recognizable images not only in the recognizable images not only in the united states but in the entire world united states but in the entire world united states but in the entire world right um and you could you can bring it right um and you could you can bring it right um and you could you can bring it almost anywhere on earth in 2022 almost anywhere on earth in 2022 almost anywhere on earth in 2022 and people will know what it refers to and people will know what it refers to and people will know what it refers to right and so this is a an image that right and so this is a an image that right and so this is a an image that circulated first as a magazine cover circulated first as a magazine cover circulated first as a magazine cover later as a recruitment poster um where later as a recruitment poster um where later as a recruitment poster um where the figure is uncle sam sort of pointing the figure is uncle sam sort of pointing the figure is uncle sam sort of pointing at the viewer at the viewer at the viewer with his finger sort of pointing and with his finger sort of pointing and with his finger sort of pointing and saying i want you saying i want you saying i want you right and the i want you is a right and the i want you is a right and the i want you is a recruitment uh tool to to join the us recruitment uh tool to to join the us recruitment uh tool to to join the us army army army and this image you know really kind of and this image you know really kind of and this image you know really kind of starts as a kind of starts as a kind of starts as a kind of like i said a magazine cover in 1916 by like i said a magazine cover in 1916 by like i said a magazine cover in 1916 by the artist james montgomery flag it the artist james montgomery flag it the artist james montgomery flag it initially appears under the heading what initially appears under the heading what initially appears under the heading what are you doing for preparedness meaning are you doing for preparedness meaning are you doing for preparedness meaning to prepare in case war comes to the to prepare in case war comes to the to prepare in case war comes to the united states right at that point in united states right at that point in united states right at that point in 1916 we're still neutral 1916 we're still neutral 1916 we're still neutral in 1917 in 1917 in 1917 it's turned into a us army recruiting it's turned into a us army recruiting it's turned into a us army recruiting poster poster poster um and then it reappears in world war ii um and then it reappears in world war ii um and then it reappears in world war ii reappears generations after you know reappears generations after you know reappears generations after you know like you said it's now uh gets remixed like you said it's now uh gets remixed like you said it's now uh gets remixed memified um it's uh it's all over the

memified um it's uh it's all over the memified um it's uh it's all over the place i think place i think place i think for me it's a it's a turning point it's for me it's a it's a turning point it's for me it's a it's a turning point it's a sort of window into american culture a sort of window into american culture a sort of window into american culture at a crucial moment in our history at a crucial moment in our history at a crucial moment in our history where the federal government is now where the federal government is now where the federal government is now embarking on a war overseas that's going embarking on a war overseas that's going embarking on a war overseas that's going to make enormous demands on its citizens to make enormous demands on its citizens to make enormous demands on its citizens and at the same time and at the same time and at the same time where sort of technologies of mass where sort of technologies of mass where sort of technologies of mass production and mass media production and mass media production and mass media and what we would probably call and what we would probably call and what we would probably call propaganda propaganda propaganda are being sort of mobilized for the for are being sort of mobilized for the for are being sort of mobilized for the for the first time in in this new kind of the first time in in this new kind of the first time in in this new kind of way well in some sense way well in some sense way well in some sense is it fair to say that this the empire is it fair to say that this the empire is it fair to say that this the empire is born is born is born the expanding empire is born from the the expanding empire is born from the the expanding empire is born from the gnome chomsky perspective kind of empire gnome chomsky perspective kind of empire gnome chomsky perspective kind of empire that seeks to that seeks to that seeks to have military influence elsewhere in the have military influence elsewhere in the have military influence elsewhere in the world world world yes but i think as historians we need to yes but i think as historians we need to yes but i think as historians we need to be at least as interested in what be at least as interested in what be at least as interested in what happens to the people who are getting happens to the people who are getting happens to the people who are getting pointed to by uncle sam pointed to by uncle sam pointed to by uncle sam right rather than just the one you know right rather than just the one you know right rather than just the one you know whether he's pointing at us um and you whether he's pointing at us um and you whether he's pointing at us um and you know so so yes he's asking us to do that know so so yes he's asking us to do that know so so yes he's asking us to do that but but how do we respond but but how do we respond but but how do we respond and the people responded so the people and the people responded so the people and the people responded so the people are ultimately the the machines of are ultimately the the machines of are ultimately the the machines of history history history the mechanisms of history it's not the the mechanisms of history it's not the the mechanisms of history it's not the uncle sam uncle sam uncle sam sam can only do so much if the people sam can only do so much if the people sam can only do so much if the people aren't willing to step up absolutely aren't willing to step up absolutely aren't willing to step up absolutely they and you know the american people they and you know the american people they and you know the american people responded for sure but they didn't build responded for sure but they didn't build responded for sure but they didn't build what uncle sam asked them to do um in what uncle sam asked them to do um in what uncle sam asked them to do um in that poster right um and i think that's that poster right um and i think that's that poster right um and i think that's a you know kind of a crucial aspect that

a you know kind of a crucial aspect that a you know kind of a crucial aspect that uh you know there never would have been uh you know there never would have been uh you know there never would have been sort of global us power without the sort of global us power without the sort of global us power without the response that begins in world war one response that begins in world war one response that begins in world war one what was the selective service act of what was the selective service act of what was the selective service act of 1917 1917 1917 so one of the very first things that so one of the very first things that so one of the very first things that uncle sam wants you to do right is to uncle sam wants you to do right is to uncle sam wants you to do right is to register for selective service for the register for selective service for the register for selective service for the draft right um and the the law is passed draft right um and the the law is passed draft right um and the the law is passed very soon after the us enters the war um very soon after the us enters the war um very soon after the us enters the war um it's sort of you know it's sort of you know it's sort of you know demanding that all men first between 21 demanding that all men first between 21 demanding that all men first between 21 and 30 then between 18 and 45 and 30 then between 18 and 45 and 30 then between 18 and 45 register for the draft and they'll be register for the draft and they'll be register for the draft and they'll be selected by a government agency by a selected by a government agency by a selected by a government agency by a volunteer organization that's the volunteer organization that's the volunteer organization that's the requirement to say no it is a legal requirement to say no it is a legal requirement to say no it is a legal requirement to register um not of course requirement to register um not of course requirement to register um not of course not everyone who registers is selected not everyone who registers is selected not everyone who registers is selected but over the course of the war 24 but over the course of the war 24 but over the course of the war 24 million men register almost 4 million million men register almost 4 million million men register almost 4 million serve in some fashion what was the serve in some fashion what was the serve in some fashion what was the response what was the feeling amongst response what was the feeling amongst response what was the feeling amongst the american people to have to sign up the american people to have to sign up the american people to have to sign up to the selective service act to the selective service act to the selective service act well have to register yeah this is uh well have to register yeah this is uh well have to register yeah this is uh this is a bigger turning point than than this is a bigger turning point than than this is a bigger turning point than than we might think right in some ways this we might think right in some ways this we might think right in some ways this is a tougher uh demand of the american is a tougher uh demand of the american is a tougher uh demand of the american public than entering the war it's one public than entering the war it's one public than entering the war it's one thing to declare war on germany right thing to declare war on germany right thing to declare war on germany right it's another thing to go down to your it's another thing to go down to your it's another thing to go down to your local post office local post office local post office and fill out the forums that that allow and fill out the forums that that allow and fill out the forums that that allow your own government to send you there to your own government to send you there to your own government to send you there to fight fight fight and this is especially important at a and this is especially important at a and this is especially important at a time when the federal government doesn't time when the federal government doesn't time when the federal government doesn't really have any other way to find you really have any other way to find you really have any other way to find you unless you actually go and register unless you actually go and register unless you actually go and register yourself right and so you know ordinary

yourself right and so you know ordinary yourself right and so you know ordinary people are participating um in the people are participating um in the people are participating um in the building of this war machine building of this war machine building of this war machine but at least a half a million of them but at least a half a million of them but at least a half a million of them don't right and simply never fill out don't right and simply never fill out don't right and simply never fill out the forms the forms the forms move from one town to another but you move from one town to another but you move from one town to another but you said 20 million did 20 something yeah said 20 million did 20 something yeah said 20 million did 20 something yeah about 24 million uh register at least about 24 million uh register at least about 24 million uh register at least 500 000 is it surprising to you that 500 000 is it surprising to you that 500 000 is it surprising to you that that many registered that many registered that many registered since the country was divided since the country was divided since the country was divided it it is and that's what i i've you know it it is and that's what i i've you know it it is and that's what i i've you know sort of tried to dig in to figure out sort of tried to dig in to figure out sort of tried to dig in to figure out how did how did you get 24 million how did how did you get 24 million how did how did you get 24 million people to to register for the draft and people to to register for the draft and people to to register for the draft and uh it's certainly not coming from the uh it's certainly not coming from the uh it's certainly not coming from the top down right um you know there are top down right um you know there are top down right um you know there are maybe a hundred uh maybe a hundred uh maybe a hundred uh sort of agents in what's now called the sort of agents in what's now called the sort of agents in what's now called the fbi fbi fbi um you know it's certainly not being um you know it's certainly not being um you know it's certainly not being enforced from washington it's being enforced from washington it's being enforced from washington it's being enforced in you know through the the enforced in you know through the the enforced in you know through the the eyes of everyday neighbors um you know eyes of everyday neighbors um you know eyes of everyday neighbors um you know through community uh surveillance all through community uh surveillance all through community uh surveillance all kinds of ways kinds of ways kinds of ways oh so there was like a pressure oh so there was like a pressure oh so there was like a pressure there's a lot of pressure interesting there's a lot of pressure interesting there's a lot of pressure interesting so there's not a significant like uh so there's not a significant like uh so there's not a significant like uh anti-war anti-war anti-war movement as you would see maybe movement as you would see maybe movement as you would see maybe later with vietnam and things like this later with vietnam and things like this later with vietnam and things like this there was a significant movement before there was a significant movement before there was a significant movement before 1917 but but it becomes very hard to 1917 but but it becomes very hard to 1917 but but it becomes very hard to keep up an organized anti-war movement keep up an organized anti-war movement keep up an organized anti-war movement after that particularly when the after that particularly when the after that particularly when the government starts shutting down protests government starts shutting down protests government starts shutting down protests so as the selective service act of 1917 so as the selective service act of 1917 so as the selective service act of 1917 runs up against runs up against runs up against some of the freedoms some of the rights some of the freedoms some of the rights some of the freedoms some of the rights that are that are that are uh defined in our founding documents

uh defined in our founding documents uh defined in our founding documents what was that clash like what was what was that clash like what was what was that clash like what was sacrificed sacrificed sacrificed what freedoms and rights were sacrificed what freedoms and rights were sacrificed what freedoms and rights were sacrificed in this process in this process in this process i mean i think on some level the i mean i think on some level the i mean i think on some level the fundamental right right fundamental right right fundamental right right is liberty right um that conscription is liberty right um that conscription is liberty right um that conscription sort of demands um you know uh sort of demands um you know uh sort of demands um you know uh sacrifice um on the behalf of some for sacrifice um on the behalf of some for sacrifice um on the behalf of some for the for notionally for the protection of the for notionally for the protection of the for notionally for the protection of all so even if you're against the war all so even if you're against the war all so even if you're against the war you're forced to fight yes um you know you're forced to fight yes um you know you're forced to fight yes um you know and there were small uh provisions for and there were small uh provisions for and there were small uh provisions for conscientious objectors um solely those conscientious objectors um solely those conscientious objectors um solely those who had religious objections to all war who had religious objections to all war who had religious objections to all war right not political objections to this right not political objections to this right not political objections to this war war war and so you know several thousand were and so you know several thousand were and so you know several thousand were able to take those provisions but even able to take those provisions but even able to take those provisions but even then then then um they faced uh social sanction they um they faced uh social sanction they um they faced uh social sanction they faced ridicule some of them faced uh faced ridicule some of them faced uh faced ridicule some of them faced uh intimidation intimidation intimidation you know so those liberty interests um you know so those liberty interests um you know so those liberty interests um both individual freedom religious both individual freedom religious both individual freedom religious freedom you know those are some of the freedom you know those are some of the freedom you know those are some of the first things to go first things to go first things to go so so so what about freedom of speech what about freedom of speech what about freedom of speech silencing of the press of the voices of silencing of the press of the voices of silencing of the press of the voices of the different people that will object uh the different people that will object uh the different people that will object uh yes absolutely right and so very soon yes absolutely right and so very soon yes absolutely right and so very soon after the selective service act is after the selective service act is after the selective service act is passed then you get the espionage act passed then you get the espionage act passed then you get the espionage act which of course is back in the news in which of course is back in the news in which of course is back in the news in 2022 what's the espionage act the 2022 what's the espionage act the 2022 what's the espionage act the espionage act is a sort of omnibus bill espionage act is a sort of omnibus bill espionage act is a sort of omnibus bill it contains about 10 or different it contains about 10 or different it contains about 10 or different provisions very few of which have to do provisions very few of which have to do provisions very few of which have to do with espionage but one key provision with espionage but one key provision with espionage but one key provision basically makes it illegal to say or do basically makes it illegal to say or do basically makes it illegal to say or do anything that would interfere with

anything that would interfere with anything that would interfere with military recruitment military recruitment military recruitment right right right and that that provision is used to shut and that that provision is used to shut and that that provision is used to shut down down down uh radical publications to shut down uh radical publications to shut down uh radical publications to shut down german language publications um and you german language publications um and you german language publications um and you know this is really has a chilling know this is really has a chilling know this is really has a chilling impact on speech during the war impact on speech during the war impact on speech during the war could you put into words what it means could you put into words what it means could you put into words what it means to be an american citizen to be an american citizen to be an american citizen that is in part sparked by world war one that is in part sparked by world war one that is in part sparked by world war one so what is what is that so what is what is that so what is what is that what does that mean somebody that's what does that mean somebody that's what does that mean somebody that's should be willing to sacrifice should be willing to sacrifice should be willing to sacrifice certain freedoms to fight for their certain freedoms to fight for their certain freedoms to fight for their country country country um um um somebody that's somebody that's somebody that's willing to fight willing to fight willing to fight to spread freedom elsewhere in the world to spread freedom elsewhere in the world to spread freedom elsewhere in the world spread the american ideals like what spread the american ideals like what spread the american ideals like what what what what um does that begin to tell the story um does that begin to tell the story um does that begin to tell the story what it means to be an american what it means to be an american what it means to be an american uh i think what we see is a change right uh i think what we see is a change right uh i think what we see is a change right so citizenship during world war one now so citizenship during world war one now so citizenship during world war one now includes um uh the obligation to defend includes um uh the obligation to defend includes um uh the obligation to defend the country right to serve right and to the country right to serve right and to the country right to serve right and to if asked to die for it right if asked to die for it right if asked to die for it right and we certainly see that and i think we and we certainly see that and i think we and we certainly see that and i think we see see see the the close linkage of military the the close linkage of military the the close linkage of military service and u.s citizenship coming out service and u.s citizenship coming out service and u.s citizenship coming out of this time period of this time period of this time period but um you know when you start making but um you know when you start making but um you know when you start making lots of demands on people to fulfill lots of demands on people to fulfill lots of demands on people to fulfill obligations in turn they're going to obligations in turn they're going to obligations in turn they're going to start demanding rights start demanding rights start demanding rights and we start to see not necessarily and we start to see not necessarily and we start to see not necessarily during the war but after during the war but after during the war but after more demands for free speech protections

more demands for free speech protections more demands for free speech protections more demands for for equality for more demands for for equality for more demands for for equality for marginalized groups marginalized groups marginalized groups and so you know obligations and rights and so you know obligations and rights and so you know obligations and rights are sort of developing in a dynamic are sort of developing in a dynamic are sort of developing in a dynamic relationship oh it's almost like relationship oh it's almost like relationship oh it's almost like an overreach of power sparked an overreach of power sparked an overreach of power sparked a sense like oh crap we can't trust a sense like oh crap we can't trust a sense like oh crap we can't trust centralized power centralized power centralized power to abuse like to drag us into a war we to abuse like to drag us into a war we to abuse like to drag us into a war we need we need to be able to so there's a need we need to be able to so there's a need we need to be able to so there's a the birth of that tension between the the birth of that tension between the the birth of that tension between the government and the people government and the people government and the people it's a a rebirth of it you know of it's a a rebirth of it you know of it's a a rebirth of it you know of course that you know that tension is course that you know that tension is course that you know that tension is always there but but uh in its modern always there but but uh in its modern always there but but uh in its modern form i think it comes from this form i think it comes from this form i think it comes from this re-intensification of it yeah so what re-intensification of it yeah so what re-intensification of it yeah so what about you said that world war one gave about you said that world war one gave about you said that world war one gave birth to the surveillance state in the birth to the surveillance state in the birth to the surveillance state in the u.s u.s u.s can you explain can you explain can you explain yeah so the espionage act um you know yeah so the espionage act um you know yeah so the espionage act um you know sort of empowers sort of empowers sort of empowers federal organizations to watch other federal organizations to watch other federal organizations to watch other americans they are particularly americans they are particularly americans they are particularly interested in anyone who is obstructing interested in anyone who is obstructing interested in anyone who is obstructing the draft the draft the draft anyone who is trying to kind of anyone who is trying to kind of anyone who is trying to kind of organize labor or strikes or radical organize labor or strikes or radical organize labor or strikes or radical movements movements movements and anyone who might have sympathy for and anyone who might have sympathy for and anyone who might have sympathy for for germany which basically means you for germany which basically means you for germany which basically means you know all german americans come under know all german americans come under know all german americans come under surveillance surveillance surveillance initially um you know this is a very initially um you know this is a very initially um you know this is a very small scale small scale small scale but but but but soon every government agency gets but soon every government agency gets but soon every government agency gets involved from the treasury department involved from the treasury department involved from the treasury department secret service to the post office which secret service to the post office which secret service to the post office which is uh sort of reading mail to the is uh sort of reading mail to the is uh sort of reading mail to the justice department which mobilizes 200 justice department which mobilizes 200 justice department which mobilizes 200 000 volunteers yeah and you know it's 000 volunteers yeah and you know it's 000 volunteers yeah and you know it's it's a really significant enterprise it's a really significant enterprise it's a really significant enterprise much of it goes away after the war

much of it goes away after the war much of it goes away after the war but of all the things that go away this but of all the things that go away this but of all the things that go away this core of the surveillance state is the core of the surveillance state is the core of the surveillance state is the thing that persists um most most fully thing that persists um most most fully thing that persists um most most fully is this also is this also is this also a place where government the size of a place where government the size of a place where government the size of government starts to grow in these government starts to grow in these government starts to grow in these different organizations or maybe create different organizations or maybe create different organizations or maybe create some momentum for growth of government some momentum for growth of government some momentum for growth of government oh it's uh it's it's exponential growth oh it's uh it's it's exponential growth oh it's uh it's it's exponential growth right that um you know that over the right that um you know that over the right that um you know that over the course of the war course of the war course of the war by almost any metric you use right the by almost any metric you use right the by almost any metric you use right the the size of the federal budget the the size of the federal budget the the size of the federal budget the number of federal employees the number number of federal employees the number number of federal employees the number of soldiers in the standing army all of of soldiers in the standing army all of of soldiers in the standing army all of those things skyrocket during the war those things skyrocket during the war those things skyrocket during the war they go down after the war but they they go down after the war but they they go down after the war but they never go down to what they were before never go down to what they were before never go down to what they were before and probably gave a momentum for growth and probably gave a momentum for growth and probably gave a momentum for growth over time yes absolutely over time yes absolutely over time yes absolutely did world war one give birth to the did world war one give birth to the did world war one give birth to the military industrial complex in the military industrial complex in the military industrial complex in the united states so war profiteering war profiteering expanding of the war machine in order to expanding of the war machine in order to expanding of the war machine in order to financially benefit a lot of parties financially benefit a lot of parties financially benefit a lot of parties involved involved involved so so so i guess i i would maybe break that into i guess i i would maybe break that into i guess i i would maybe break that into two parts right that um two parts right that um two parts right that um uh on the one hand yes uh on the one hand yes uh on the one hand yes the there is war profiteering um there the there is war profiteering um there the there is war profiteering um there are investigations of it are investigations of it are investigations of it um in the years after the war there's a um in the years after the war there's a um in the years after the war there's a widespread concern that the profit widespread concern that the profit widespread concern that the profit motive had played motive had played motive had played you know too much of a part you know too much of a part you know too much of a part in the war and that's definitely the in the war and that's definitely the in the war and that's definitely the case

case case but i think when you try to think of but i think when you try to think of but i think when you try to think of this term military industrial complex this term military industrial complex this term military industrial complex it's best you know it's best you know it's best you know to think of it as you know at what point to think of it as you know at what point to think of it as you know at what point does the one side lock in the other does the one side lock in the other does the one side lock in the other right that military choices are shaped right that military choices are shaped right that military choices are shaped by industry uh stan you know by industry uh stan you know by industry uh stan you know objectives and and vice versa objectives and and vice versa objectives and and vice versa and i don't think that that was fully and i don't think that that was fully and i don't think that that was fully locked into place during world war one i locked into place during world war one i locked into place during world war one i think that's really a cold war think that's really a cold war think that's really a cold war phenomenon when the united states is on phenomenon when the united states is on phenomenon when the united states is on this intense kind of footing for for two this intense kind of footing for for two this intense kind of footing for for two generations in a row so industrial is generations in a row so industrial is generations in a row so industrial is really important there there is really important there there is really important there there is companies companies companies so before then so before then so before then weapons of war were created were uh weapons of war were created were uh weapons of war were created were uh funded directly by the government were funded directly by the government were funded directly by the government were like like like like who was manufacturing the weapons like who was manufacturing the weapons like who was manufacturing the weapons of war of war of war they were generally manufactured by they were generally manufactured by they were generally manufactured by private industry um uh there were of private industry um uh there were of private industry um uh there were of course art well arsenal sort of 19th course art well arsenal sort of 19th course art well arsenal sort of 19th century iterations where the government century iterations where the government century iterations where the government would produce its own weapons um partly would produce its own weapons um partly would produce its own weapons um partly to make sure that they got what they to make sure that they got what they to make sure that they got what they wanted um but but most of the weapons of wanted um but but most of the weapons of wanted um but but most of the weapons of war for all of the european powers and war for all of the european powers and war for all of the european powers and the united states are produced by the united states are produced by the united states are produced by private industry so why do you say that private industry so why do you say that private industry so why do you say that the military-industrial complex didn't the military-industrial complex didn't the military-industrial complex didn't start then what was the what was the start then what was the what was the start then what was the what was the important thing that happened in the important thing that happened in the important thing that happened in the cold war cold war cold war i think i think i think one way to think about it is it it's one way to think about it is it it's one way to think about it is it it's the cold war is a point at which it uh the cold war is a point at which it uh the cold war is a point at which it uh switches from being a dial to a ratchet switches from being a dial to a ratchet switches from being a dial to a ratchet right so during world war one uh you right so during world war one uh you right so during world war one uh you know the relationship between the know the relationship between the know the relationship between the military and industry dials up military and industry dials up military and industry dials up you know fast and high and stays you

you know fast and high and stays you you know fast and high and stays you know stays that way and it dials back know stays that way and it dials back know stays that way and it dials back down down down whereas during um the cold war um sort whereas during um the cold war um sort whereas during um the cold war um sort of the relationship between the two of the relationship between the two of the relationship between the two often looks more like a ratchet yeah often looks more like a ratchet yeah often looks more like a ratchet yeah because it becomes unstoppable it goes because it becomes unstoppable it goes because it becomes unstoppable it goes up again up again up again and in the way that you start i think and in the way that you start i think and in the way that you start i think the way the military-industrial complex the way the military-industrial complex the way the military-industrial complex is often involved is often involved is often involved um disgust is um disgust is um disgust is as a system that as a system that as a system that is unstoppable is unstoppable is unstoppable right like it expands right like it expands right like it expands it almost i mean if you take a very it almost i mean if you take a very it almost i mean if you take a very cynical view cynical view cynical view it it it creates war creates war creates war so that it can make money so that it can make money so that it can make money it doesn't just it doesn't just it doesn't just find places where it can help through find places where it can help through find places where it can help through military conflict military conflict military conflict it creates tensions that directly or it creates tensions that directly or it creates tensions that directly or indirectly lead to military conflict indirectly lead to military conflict indirectly lead to military conflict that can then that can then that can then fuel and make money from fuel and make money from fuel and make money from that is certainly one of the concerns um that is certainly one of the concerns um that is certainly one of the concerns um of both people of both people of both people um you know who are critical of the um you know who are critical of the um you know who are critical of the first world war and then also of dwight first world war and then also of dwight first world war and then also of dwight eisenhower right when he's uh president eisenhower right when he's uh president eisenhower right when he's uh president and and sort of in his uh farewell and and sort of in his uh farewell and and sort of in his uh farewell address where he sort of introduces the address where he sort of introduces the address where he sort of introduces the term military-industrial complex and term military-industrial complex and term military-industrial complex and some of it is about the profit motive some of it is about the profit motive some of it is about the profit motive but some of it is a a fear that that but some of it is a a fear that that but some of it is a a fear that that eisenhower had eisenhower had eisenhower had that no one had an interest in stopping that no one had an interest in stopping that no one had an interest in stopping this this this right and that no one had a voice in right and that no one had a voice in right and that no one had a voice in stopping it and that the ordinary stopping it and that the ordinary stopping it and that the ordinary american could could really do nothing american could could really do nothing american could could really do nothing um to sort of uh you know to kind of to um to sort of uh you know to kind of to um to sort of uh you know to kind of to dial it to dial things down is it

dial it to dial things down is it dial it to dial things down is it strange to you that we don't often hear strange to you that we don't often hear strange to you that we don't often hear that kind of speech today with like that kind of speech today with like that kind of speech today with like eisenhower speaking about the eisenhower speaking about the eisenhower speaking about the military-industrial military-industrial military-industrial complex so for example we'll have people complex so for example we'll have people complex so for example we'll have people criticizing the spending on the on war criticizing the spending on the on war criticizing the spending on the on war efforts efforts efforts but they're not but they're not but they're not discussing the discussing the discussing the yeah the machinery of the yeah the machinery of the yeah the machinery of the military-industrial complex like the military-industrial complex like the military-industrial complex like the the basic the basic the basic way that human nature works that we get way that human nature works that we get way that human nature works that we get ourselves trapped in this thing they're ourselves trapped in this thing they're ourselves trapped in this thing they're saying like there's better things to saying like there's better things to saying like there's better things to spend money on spend money on spend money on versus describing a very versus describing a very versus describing a very seemingly natural process seemingly natural process seemingly natural process of when you build weapons of war that's of when you build weapons of war that's of when you build weapons of war that's gonna lead to more war gonna lead to more war gonna lead to more war like it pulls you in like it pulls you in like it pulls you in somehow somehow somehow yeah i would say yeah i would say yeah i would say throughout the cold war um and even throughout the cold war um and even throughout the cold war um and even after the end of it uh there has not after the end of it uh there has not after the end of it uh there has not been a sustained conversation um in the been a sustained conversation um in the been a sustained conversation um in the united states um about uh about our united states um about uh about our united states um about uh about our defense establishment right what we you defense establishment right what we you defense establishment right what we you know what we really need know what we really need know what we really need um and uh you know what what serves our um and uh you know what what serves our um and uh you know what what serves our interest um and interest um and interest um and uh and to what extent um sort of other uh and to what extent um sort of other uh and to what extent um sort of other things like things like things like market forces profit motives um you know market forces profit motives um you know market forces profit motives um you know belong in that in that conversation belong in that in that conversation belong in that in that conversation uh what's interesting is that in the uh what's interesting is that in the uh what's interesting is that in the generation after the first world war generation after the first world war generation after the first world war that was that conversation was on the that was that conversation was on the that was that conversation was on the table right um through a series of table right um through a series of table right um through a series of investigations in the u.s the nye investigations in the u.s the nye investigations in the u.s the nye committee um in britain a royal

committee um in britain a royal committee um in britain a royal commission journalistic expose you know commission journalistic expose you know commission journalistic expose you know this would have been just this would have been just this would have been just talked about constantly in the years talked about constantly in the years talked about constantly in the years between about 1930 and 1936 between about 1930 and 1936 between about 1930 and 1936 as people were starting to worry right as people were starting to worry right as people were starting to worry right that storm clouds were gathering in that storm clouds were gathering in that storm clouds were gathering in europe again europe again europe again yeah but it almost seems like those yeah but it almost seems like those yeah but it almost seems like those folks get folks get folks get pushed to the fringes pushed to the fringes pushed to the fringes you're made an activist you're made an activist you're made an activist for versus uh intel like a versus a for versus uh intel like a versus a for versus uh intel like a versus a thinking leader thinking leader thinking leader those discussions are often marginalized those discussions are often marginalized those discussions are often marginalized um framed as conspiracy theory um etc um um framed as conspiracy theory um etc um um framed as conspiracy theory um etc um and um you know i think it's it's and um you know i think it's it's and um you know i think it's it's important to realize that you know uh in important to realize that you know uh in important to realize that you know uh in the generation after world war one this the generation after world war one this the generation after world war one this was a serious civic conversation it led was a serious civic conversation it led was a serious civic conversation it led to you know sort of investigations of to you know sort of investigations of to you know sort of investigations of defense defense defense sort of finance it led to experiments sort of finance it led to experiments sort of finance it led to experiments in britain and france and public finance in britain and france and public finance in britain and france and public finance of war material of war material of war material and i think those conversations need to and i think those conversations need to and i think those conversations need to be reconvened be reconvened be reconvened now in the 21st century is there any now in the 21st century is there any now in the 21st century is there any parallels between parallels between parallels between world war one and the war in ukraine world war one and the war in ukraine world war one and the war in ukraine the reason i bring it up is because the reason i bring it up is because the reason i bring it up is because you mentioned sort of there was a hunger for war there was a hunger for war a capacity for war that was already a capacity for war that was already a capacity for war that was already established established established and the different parties were just and the different parties were just and the different parties were just boiling the uh boiling the uh boiling the uh the tensions the tensions the tensions so there's a case made that america had so there's a case made that america had so there's a case made that america had a

a a role to play nato had a role to play in role to play nato had a role to play in role to play nato had a role to play in the current war in ukraine the current war in ukraine the current war in ukraine is there some truth to that is there some truth to that is there some truth to that uh when you think about it in the uh when you think about it in the uh when you think about it in the context of world war one context of world war one context of world war one or is it purely about the specific or is it purely about the specific or is it purely about the specific parties involved which is russia and parties involved which is russia and parties involved which is russia and ukraine ukraine ukraine i think it's very easy to i think it's very easy to i think it's very easy to draw parallels between world war one uh draw parallels between world war one uh draw parallels between world war one uh and the war in ukraine um and the war in ukraine um and the war in ukraine um but i don't think they really work um but i don't think they really work um but i don't think they really work um that you know the first world war that you know the first world war that you know the first world war in some ways is generated by in some ways is generated by in some ways is generated by a a a you know fundamental conflict uh in the you know fundamental conflict uh in the you know fundamental conflict uh in the euro european system of empires right in euro european system of empires right in euro european system of empires right in the global system of empires the global system of empires the global system of empires so in many ways if there's a parallel so in many ways if there's a parallel so in many ways if there's a parallel the war in ukraine is the parallel to the war in ukraine is the parallel to the war in ukraine is the parallel to some of the conflicts in some of the conflicts in some of the conflicts in um you know in um you know in um you know in the mediterranean and the balkans in the mediterranean and the balkans in the mediterranean and the balkans in 1911 to 1913 1911 to 1913 1911 to 1913 um that um that um that um you know um you know um you know that then later there was a much greater that then later there was a much greater that then later there was a much greater conflict right and so conflict right and so conflict right and so i think if there's any lessons to be i think if there's any lessons to be i think if there's any lessons to be learned um for how not to you know let learned um for how not to you know let learned um for how not to you know let uh world war iii look like world war one uh world war iii look like world war one uh world war iii look like world war one um it would be to make sure that um you um it would be to make sure that um you um it would be to make sure that um you know that systems aren't locked into know that systems aren't locked into know that systems aren't locked into place um that escalate wars out of out place um that escalate wars out of out place um that escalate wars out of out of people's expectations well that's of people's expectations well that's of people's expectations well that's i suppose what i was uh implying i suppose what i was uh implying i suppose what i was uh implying that this is the early stages of world

that this is the early stages of world that this is the early stages of world war iii war iii war iii that in the same way that several wolves are licking their several wolves are licking their chops or whatever the expression is chops or whatever the expression is chops or whatever the expression is they're they're creating tension they're they're they're creating tension they're they're they're creating tension they're creating military creating military creating military conflict with a kind of unstoppable conflict with a kind of unstoppable conflict with a kind of unstoppable imperative for a global war imperative for a global war imperative for a global war that's i mean that's i mean that's i mean many kind of many kind of many kind of people that are looking at this are people that are looking at this are people that are looking at this are really worried about that now really worried about that now really worried about that now the the stopping the forcing function to the the stopping the forcing function to the the stopping the forcing function to stop this war is that there's stop this war is that there's stop this war is that there's several nuclear powers involved several nuclear powers involved several nuclear powers involved which has at least for now worked to which has at least for now worked to which has at least for now worked to stop stop stop full-on full-on full-on global war global war global war but i'm not sure that's going to be the but i'm not sure that's going to be the but i'm not sure that's going to be the case in fact what's one of the case in fact what's one of the case in fact what's one of the surprising things to me surprising things to me surprising things to me in ukraine is that still in the 21st in ukraine is that still in the 21st in ukraine is that still in the 21st century century century we can go to something that involves we can go to something that involves we can go to something that involves nuclear powers not directly yet but nuclear powers not directly yet but nuclear powers not directly yet but awfully close to directly awfully close to directly awfully close to directly go to a hot war go to a hot war go to a hot war and so do you worry about that that and so do you worry about that that and so do you worry about that that there's a kind of there's a kind of there's a kind of descent into a world war one type of descent into a world war one type of descent into a world war one type of scenario scenario scenario yes i mean that that keeps me up at yes i mean that that keeps me up at yes i mean that that keeps me up at night and i think it should keep uh you night and i think it should keep uh you night and i think it should keep uh you know the citizens of both the united know the citizens of both the united know the citizens of both the united states and russia states and russia states and russia up at night up at night up at night um um um and i think and i think and i think again it gets back to what i was saying again it gets back to what i was saying again it gets back to what i was saying in that in the summer of 1914 in that in the summer of 1914 in that in the summer of 1914 um even then um things that looked

um even then um things that looked um even then um things that looked um um um like a march toward war like a march toward war like a march toward war could have been different right and so i could have been different right and so i could have been different right and so i think it's important for leaders think it's important for leaders think it's important for leaders to to to um of both countries and of all of the um of both countries and of all of the um of both countries and of all of the sort of related countries you know of sort of related countries you know of sort of related countries you know of ukraine of the various nato powers and ukraine of the various nato powers and ukraine of the various nato powers and to really to really to really sort of imagine sort of imagine sort of imagine off-ramps and to imagine alternatives off-ramps and to imagine alternatives off-ramps and to imagine alternatives and to make them possible and to make them possible and to make them possible you know whether it's through diplomacy you know whether it's through diplomacy you know whether it's through diplomacy whether it's through other formats whether it's through other formats whether it's through other formats um you know i think that um you know i think that um you know i think that you know that that's the only way to you know that that's the only way to you know that that's the only way to prevent sort of greater escalation prevent sort of greater escalation prevent sort of greater escalation what's the difference between world war what's the difference between world war what's the difference between world war one and the civil war in terms of how one and the civil war in terms of how one and the civil war in terms of how they defined what it means to be an they defined what it means to be an they defined what it means to be an american but also american but also american but also uh the american uh the american uh the american citizens relationship with the war citizens relationship with the war citizens relationship with the war um what what the leaders were doing is um what what the leaders were doing is um what what the leaders were doing is there interesting differences in there interesting differences in there interesting differences in similarities besides the fact that everybody seems to besides the fact that everybody seems to have forgot about world war one in the have forgot about world war one in the have forgot about world war one in the united states and everyone still united states and everyone still united states and everyone still remembers civil war remembers civil war remembers civil war i mean it's true um and uh you know i mean it's true um and uh you know i mean it's true um and uh you know the the the the american civil war defines american the american civil war defines american the american civil war defines american identity um uh in some ways along with identity um uh in some ways along with identity um uh in some ways along with the revolution and the second world war the revolution and the second world war the revolution and the second world war more so than any other conflict more so than any other conflict more so than any other conflict and you know it's it's a fundamentally and you know it's it's a fundamentally and you know it's it's a fundamentally different war different war different war right it's one uh because it is a civil right it's one uh because it is a civil right it's one uh because it is a civil war right because um war right because um war right because um you know because of secession because of you know because of secession because of you know because of secession because of the confederacy and you know this is a a

the confederacy and you know this is a a the confederacy and you know this is a a conflict happening on the territory of conflict happening on the territory of conflict happening on the territory of the united states between americans and the united states between americans and the united states between americans and so the dynamics are are are really quite so the dynamics are are are really quite so the dynamics are are are really quite different right so you know the the different right so you know the the different right so you know the the leaders particularly lincoln have a leaders particularly lincoln have a leaders particularly lincoln have a different relationship to the home front different relationship to the home front different relationship to the home front to civilians to civilians to civilians than they than say wilson or roosevelt than they than say wilson or roosevelt than they than say wilson or roosevelt have in the in world war one and two have in the in world war one and two have in the in world war one and two also the way you would tell the story of also the way you would tell the story of also the way you would tell the story of the civil war the civil war the civil war perhaps similar to the way we tell the perhaps similar to the way we tell the perhaps similar to the way we tell the story of world war ii story of world war ii story of world war ii there's like a reason to actually fight there's like a reason to actually fight there's like a reason to actually fight the war the way we tell the stories the war the way we tell the stories the war the way we tell the stories we're fighting for this idea that all we're fighting for this idea that all we're fighting for this idea that all men are created equal men are created equal men are created equal that the the the war is over slavery that the the the war is over slavery that the the the war is over slavery in part perhaps that's a in part perhaps that's a in part perhaps that's a radic radic radic drastic oversimplification of what the drastic oversimplification of what the drastic oversimplification of what the war was actually about in the moment war was actually about in the moment war was actually about in the moment like how do you get pulled into an like how do you get pulled into an like how do you get pulled into an actual war versus actual war versus actual war versus a uh hot a uh hot a uh hot discussion and the same with world war discussion and the same with world war discussion and the same with world war ii people ii people ii people kind of framed the narrative that it was kind of framed the narrative that it was kind of framed the narrative that it was against evil against evil against evil hitler being evil hitler being evil hitler being evil i think the key part of that is probably i think the key part of that is probably i think the key part of that is probably the holocaust that's how you can the holocaust that's how you can the holocaust that's how you can formulate hitler's being evil if there's formulate hitler's being evil if there's formulate hitler's being evil if there's no holocaust perhaps there's a case to no holocaust perhaps there's a case to no holocaust perhaps there's a case to be made that we wouldn't be made that we wouldn't be made that we wouldn't see world war ii as such see world war ii as such see world war ii as such uh quote-unquote good war uh quote-unquote good war uh quote-unquote good war uh that there's an atrocity that had to uh that there's an atrocity that had to uh that there's an atrocity that had to happen to make it really happen to make it really happen to make it really uh to be able to tell a clear narrative uh to be able to tell a clear narrative uh to be able to tell a clear narrative of why we get into this war perhaps such

of why we get into this war perhaps such of why we get into this war perhaps such a narrative doesn't exist for world war a narrative doesn't exist for world war a narrative doesn't exist for world war one one one and so that doesn't stay in the american and so that doesn't stay in the american and so that doesn't stay in the american mind we try to uh sweep it under the rug mind we try to uh sweep it under the rug mind we try to uh sweep it under the rug even though even though even though overall 16 million people died overall 16 million people died overall 16 million people died so so so so to you the difference is in the fact so to you the difference is in the fact so to you the difference is in the fact that you're fighting for us for ideas that you're fighting for us for ideas that you're fighting for us for ideas and fighting and fighting and fighting on on on the homeland but in terms of on on on the homeland but in terms of on on on the homeland but in terms of people's participation people's participation people's participation you know um you know um you know um fighting for your country fighting for your country fighting for your country was there similarities there was there similarities there was there similarities there yeah i mean i think uh yeah i mean i think uh yeah i mean i think uh i mean the civil war in in both the i mean the civil war in in both the i mean the civil war in in both the north and the south uh troops are raised north and the south uh troops are raised north and the south uh troops are raised overwhelmingly um through volunteer overwhelmingly um through volunteer overwhelmingly um through volunteer recruitment uh there is a draft in in recruitment uh there is a draft in in recruitment uh there is a draft in in both the north and the south but um both the north and the south but um both the north and the south but um uh you know it's it's not significant um uh you know it's it's not significant um uh you know it's it's not significant um only eight percent of of uh only eight percent of of uh only eight percent of of uh of confederate soldiers came in through of confederate soldiers came in through of confederate soldiers came in through conscription conscription conscription um and so in fact you know the um and so in fact you know the um and so in fact you know the the mobilization for the mobilization for the mobilization for volunteers often organized locally volunteers often organized locally volunteers often organized locally around individual communities or states around individual communities or states around individual communities or states um create sort of multiple identities um create sort of multiple identities um create sort of multiple identities and levels of loyalty and levels of loyalty and levels of loyalty where people both in the north and the where people both in the north and the where people both in the north and the south have loyalty both to their state south have loyalty both to their state south have loyalty both to their state regiments regiments regiments to their sort of community militias and to their sort of community militias and to their sort of community militias and as well to to the country they are as well to to the country they are as well to to the country they are fighting over the country right over the fighting over the country right over the fighting over the country right over the united states united states united states and so at the end the union and the and so at the end the union and the and so at the end the union and the confederacy have conflicting and confederacy have conflicting and confederacy have conflicting and ultimately irreconcilable visions of ultimately irreconcilable visions of ultimately irreconcilable visions of that

that that but but you know that sort of but but you know that sort of but but you know that sort of nationalism that comes out of uh nationalism that comes out of uh nationalism that comes out of uh out of the union um after the victory in out of the union um after the victory in out of the union um after the victory in the war is a kind of crucial force the war is a kind of crucial force the war is a kind of crucial force shaping america uh ever since so what shaping america uh ever since so what shaping america uh ever since so what was the neutrality period why did u.s was the neutrality period why did u.s was the neutrality period why did u.s stay out of the war for so long like stay out of the war for so long like stay out of the war for so long like what was going on in that what was going on in that what was going on in that interesting interesting interesting like like like what made woodrow wilson change his mind what made woodrow wilson change his mind what made woodrow wilson change his mind what what what what uh what was the interesting dynamic what uh what was the interesting dynamic what uh what was the interesting dynamic there i always say that the united there i always say that the united there i always say that the united states states states entered the war in april of 1917 but entered the war in april of 1917 but entered the war in april of 1917 but americans entered it right away right americans entered it right away right americans entered it right away right they entered it um you know some of them they entered it um you know some of them they entered it um you know some of them actually went and volunteered and fought actually went and volunteered and fought actually went and volunteered and fought almost exclusively on the side of almost exclusively on the side of almost exclusively on the side of britain and france at least fifty thousand joined the at least fifty thousand joined the canadian army or the british army and canadian army or the british army and canadian army or the british army and serve serve serve millions volunteer they sent millions volunteer they sent millions volunteer they sent humanitarian aid i think in many ways humanitarian aid i think in many ways humanitarian aid i think in many ways modern war creates modern modern war creates modern modern war creates modern humanitarianism and we can see that in humanitarianism and we can see that in humanitarianism and we can see that in the neutrality period the neutrality period the neutrality period and even if they wanted the united and even if they wanted the united and even if they wanted the united states to stay out of the war a lot of states to stay out of the war a lot of states to stay out of the war a lot of americans get involved in it by thinking americans get involved in it by thinking americans get involved in it by thinking about it caring about it you know about it caring about it you know about it caring about it you know arguing about it arguing about it arguing about it and and and and you know at the same time they're and you know at the same time they're and you know at the same time they're worried that british propaganda is worried that british propaganda is worried that british propaganda is shaping their news system shaping their news system shaping their news system they are worried they are worried they are worried that german espionage is undermining that german espionage is undermining that german espionage is undermining them them them um they're worried that both britain and um they're worried that both britain and um they're worried that both britain and germany are trying to interfere in germany are trying to interfere in germany are trying to interfere in american elections and american news

american elections and american news american elections and american news cycles uh you know there and at the same cycles uh you know there and at the same cycles uh you know there and at the same time uh a revolution is breaking out in time uh a revolution is breaking out in time uh a revolution is breaking out in mexico right so there are sort of you mexico right so there are sort of you mexico right so there are sort of you know concerns about uh what's happening know concerns about uh what's happening know concerns about uh what's happening in the western hemisphere as well as in the western hemisphere as well as in the western hemisphere as well as what's happening in europe what's happening in europe what's happening in europe so world war one was supposed to be the so world war one was supposed to be the so world war one was supposed to be the war to end all wars war to end all wars war to end all wars and it didn't and it didn't and it didn't how did how did world war one how did how did world war one how did how did world war one pave the way to world war ii pave the way to world war ii pave the way to world war ii every nation probably has their own every nation probably has their own every nation probably has their own story in this trajectory towards world story in this trajectory towards world story in this trajectory towards world war ii war ii war ii how did europe how did europe how did europe allow world war ii to happen how did the allow world war ii to happen how did the allow world war ii to happen how did the soviet union russia soviet union russia soviet union russia allow this to happen and how did america allow this to happen and how did america allow this to happen and how did america allow world war ii to happen allow world war ii to happen allow world war ii to happen in japan in japan in japan yeah you're right the answer is yeah you're right the answer is yeah you're right the answer is different for each country right different for each country right different for each country right that in some ways in germany and the that in some ways in germany and the that in some ways in germany and the culture of defeat culture of defeat culture of defeat and the experience of defeat at the end and the experience of defeat at the end and the experience of defeat at the end of world war one leads to a culture of of world war one leads to a culture of of world war one leads to a culture of resentment recrimination resentment recrimination resentment recrimination finger-pointing blame finger-pointing blame finger-pointing blame that um makes german politics very ugly that um makes german politics very ugly that um makes german politics very ugly um as one person puts it brutalizes uh um as one person puts it brutalizes uh um as one person puts it brutalizes uh german politics german politics german politics um pleases resentment at the core of the um pleases resentment at the core of the um pleases resentment at the core of the populace and its politics yeah and you populace and its politics yeah and you populace and its politics yeah and you know so in some ways that lays the know so in some ways that lays the know so in some ways that lays the groundwork for the kind of politics of groundwork for the kind of politics of groundwork for the kind of politics of of resentment and hate that that comes of resentment and hate that that comes of resentment and hate that that comes from the from the nazis from the from the nazis from the from the nazis um you know for the united states in um you know for the united states in um you know for the united states in some ways the failure to win the peace some ways the failure to win the peace some ways the failure to win the peace um uh you know uh sets up the

um uh you know uh sets up the um uh you know uh sets up the possibility for for the next war possibility for for the next war possibility for for the next war right that um that the united states right that um that the united states right that um that the united states uh you know through wilson is sort of uh you know through wilson is sort of uh you know through wilson is sort of crafting a new international order crafting a new international order crafting a new international order in order that this will be the war to in order that this will be the war to in order that this will be the war to end all wars but because the united end all wars but because the united end all wars but because the united states failed to join the league of states failed to join the league of states failed to join the league of nations um you see that the united nations um you see that the united nations um you see that the united states really sort of on the hook for states really sort of on the hook for states really sort of on the hook for another generation another generation another generation uh in asia the story is more complicated uh in asia the story is more complicated uh in asia the story is more complicated right and i think it's worth bearing right and i think it's worth bearing right and i think it's worth bearing that in mind that that world war ii is a that in mind that that world war ii is a that in mind that that world war ii is a two-front war um it's it starts in asia two-front war um it's it starts in asia two-front war um it's it starts in asia for its own reasons um world war one is for its own reasons um world war one is for its own reasons um world war one is transformative for japan right um it is transformative for japan right um it is transformative for japan right um it is a time of massive economic expansion and a time of massive economic expansion and a time of massive economic expansion and a lot of that uh sort of economic wealth a lot of that uh sort of economic wealth a lot of that uh sort of economic wealth is poured into sort of greater is poured into sort of greater is poured into sort of greater industrialization and militarization and industrialization and militarization and industrialization and militarization and so when the military wing so when the military wing so when the military wing in japanese politics takes over in the in japanese politics takes over in the in japanese politics takes over in the 1930s they're in some ways flexing 1930s they're in some ways flexing 1930s they're in some ways flexing muscles that come out of the first world muscles that come out of the first world muscles that come out of the first world war war war can you talk about the end of world war can you talk about the end of world war can you talk about the end of world war one the treaty of versailles one the treaty of versailles one the treaty of versailles um um um what's interesting about that dynamics what's interesting about that dynamics what's interesting about that dynamics there there there of the parties involved of the parties involved of the parties involved of uh of uh of uh how it could have been done differently how it could have been done differently how it could have been done differently to avoid the resentment is there to avoid the resentment is there to avoid the resentment is there or again is it inevitable or again is it inevitable or again is it inevitable so the war ends and very soon even so the war ends and very soon even so the war ends and very soon even before the war is over um the before the war is over um the before the war is over um the the united states in particular is the united states in particular is the united states in particular is trying to shape the peace right and the trying to shape the peace right and the trying to shape the peace right and the united states is the central actor um at

united states is the central actor um at united states is the central actor um at the paris peace conference in 1919 the paris peace conference in 1919 the paris peace conference in 1919 woodrow wilson is there woodrow wilson is there woodrow wilson is there he's presiding um and he knows that he he's presiding um and he knows that he he's presiding um and he knows that he calls the shots calls the shots calls the shots so he was respected he was respected but so he was respected he was respected but so he was respected he was respected but uh uh uh but resentfully in some ways by by the but resentfully in some ways by by the but resentfully in some ways by by the the european powers britain and france the european powers britain and france the european powers britain and france and italy to a lesser extent who you and italy to a lesser extent who you and italy to a lesser extent who you know felt that they had sacrificed more know felt that they had sacrificed more know felt that they had sacrificed more um they had two goals right they wanted um they had two goals right they wanted um they had two goals right they wanted to shape to shape to shape the the imperial system in order to make the the imperial system in order to make the the imperial system in order to make sure that their sure that their sure that their you know kind of fundamental economic you know kind of fundamental economic you know kind of fundamental economic structures wouldn't change and they also structures wouldn't change and they also structures wouldn't change and they also wanted to wanted to wanted to sort of weaken germany as much as sort of weaken germany as much as sort of weaken germany as much as possible right so that germany couldn't possible right so that germany couldn't possible right so that germany couldn't rise again rise again rise again what this leads to is a peace treaty what this leads to is a peace treaty what this leads to is a peace treaty that that that you know you know you know maintains some of the fundamental maintains some of the fundamental maintains some of the fundamental conflicts of the imperial system conflicts of the imperial system conflicts of the imperial system and and and makes makes makes bankrupts germany bankrupts germany bankrupts germany starves germany and kind of feeds this starves germany and kind of feeds this starves germany and kind of feeds this politics of resentment that make it politics of resentment that make it politics of resentment that make it impossible for germany to kind of impossible for germany to kind of impossible for germany to kind of participate in a european order so participate in a european order so participate in a european order so people like historian neil ferguson for people like historian neil ferguson for people like historian neil ferguson for example make the case that example make the case that example make the case that if britain stayed out of world war one if britain stayed out of world war one if britain stayed out of world war one we would have avoided this whole mess we would have avoided this whole mess we would have avoided this whole mess and we would potentially even avoid and we would potentially even avoid and we would potentially even avoid world war ii world war ii world war ii there's kind of counterfactual history there's kind of counterfactual history there's kind of counterfactual history do you think it's possible to make the do you think it's possible to make the do you think it's possible to make the case for that that there was case for that that there was case for that that there was a moment especially in that case thing a moment especially in that case thing a moment especially in that case thing out of the war for britain that the

out of the war for britain that the out of the war for britain that the escalation to a global war could have escalation to a global war could have escalation to a global war could have been avoided and one that ultimately been avoided and one that ultimately been avoided and one that ultimately ends ends ends in a deep global resentment so where in a deep global resentment so where in a deep global resentment so where germany is resentful not just of france germany is resentful not just of france germany is resentful not just of france or particular nations or particular nations or particular nations but is resentful of the entire but is resentful of the entire but is resentful of the entire i don't know how you define it the west i don't know how you define it the west i don't know how you define it the west or something like this in the entire or something like this in the entire or something like this in the entire global world i wish it were that easy i wish it were that easy and and and you know i think um it's useful to think and counter it's useful to think and counter factuals um you know what if um and factuals um you know what if um and factuals um you know what if um and if you believe if you believe if you believe as historians do in causation as historians do in causation as historians do in causation then if that one thing causes another then if that one thing causes another then if that one thing causes another then you also have to believe in counter then you also have to believe in counter then you also have to believe in counter factuals right that if something hadn't factuals right that if something hadn't factuals right that if something hadn't happened then maybe that wouldn't you happened then maybe that wouldn't you happened then maybe that wouldn't you know that would have worked differently know that would have worked differently know that would have worked differently um but uh i think all the things that um but uh i think all the things that um but uh i think all the things that led to world war one um are led to world war one um are led to world war one um are multi-causal and nuanced and this is multi-causal and nuanced and this is multi-causal and nuanced and this is what historians do we make things more what historians do we make things more what historians do we make things more complicated um and so complicated um and so complicated um and so you know there was no one thing that you know there was no one thing that you know there was no one thing that could have you know uh could have you know uh could have you know uh like that could have turned the the tide like that could have turned the the tide like that could have turned the the tide of history um you know of history um you know of history um you know and you know oh if only and you know oh if only and you know oh if only hitler had gotten into art school or if hitler had gotten into art school or if hitler had gotten into art school or if only fidel castro had gotten into the only fidel castro had gotten into the only fidel castro had gotten into the major leagues you know uh major leagues you know uh major leagues you know uh uh those are interesting thought uh those are interesting thought uh those are interesting thought experiments but few few events in experiments but few few events in experiments but few few events in history i think are that contingent well history i think are that contingent well history i think are that contingent well hitler is an example somebody who's a hitler is an example somebody who's a hitler is an example somebody who's a charismatic leader charismatic leader charismatic leader that seems to have a really

disproportionate amount of influence disproportionate amount of influence on the tide of history on the tide of history on the tide of history so so so you know if you look at stalin you can you know if you look at stalin you can you know if you look at stalin you can imagine that many other people could imagine that many other people could imagine that many other people could have stepped into that role have stepped into that role have stepped into that role and the same goes for many other the and the same goes for many other the and the same goes for many other the other presidents through or even mao other presidents through or even mao other presidents through or even mao it seems that there's a singular nature it seems that there's a singular nature it seems that there's a singular nature to hitler that you could play the to hitler that you could play the to hitler that you could play the counterfactual counterfactual counterfactual that if there was no hitler you may have that if there was no hitler you may have that if there was no hitler you may have not had world war ii he not had world war ii he not had world war ii he better than many better than many better than many um leaders in history was able to um leaders in history was able to um leaders in history was able to channel the resentment of the populace channel the resentment of the populace channel the resentment of the populace into a very aggressive expansion of the into a very aggressive expansion of the into a very aggressive expansion of the military and military and military and i would say i would say i would say skillful deceit of the entire world skillful deceit of the entire world skillful deceit of the entire world in terms of his plans and was able to in terms of his plans and was able to in terms of his plans and was able to effectively start the war effectively start the war effectively start the war so so so is it is it possible that is it is it possible that is it is it possible that i mean could hitler have been stopped i mean could hitler have been stopped i mean could hitler have been stopped could we have avoided could we have avoided could we have avoided if he just got into art school right if he just got into art school right if he just got into art school right uh or again do you feel like there's a uh or again do you feel like there's a uh or again do you feel like there's a current of events that was unstoppable i current of events that was unstoppable i current of events that was unstoppable i mean part of what you're talking about mean part of what you're talking about mean part of what you're talking about is uh is hitler the individual as a sort is uh is hitler the individual as a sort is uh is hitler the individual as a sort of charismatic leader who's able to of charismatic leader who's able to of charismatic leader who's able to mobilize you know the the nation um and mobilize you know the the nation um and mobilize you know the the nation um and part of it is hitlerism right his own part of it is hitlerism right his own part of it is hitlerism right his own sort of individual sort of individual sort of individual ability to play for example play off his ability to play for example play off his ability to play for example play off his subordinates against one another to set subordinates against one another to set subordinates against one another to set up a system and you know of that of that up a system and you know of that of that up a system and you know of that of that nature that that in some ways escalates nature that that in some ways escalates nature that that in some ways escalates violence including um you know the

violence including um you know the violence including um you know the violence that leads to the holocaust violence that leads to the holocaust violence that leads to the holocaust um and some of it is also hitlerism um um and some of it is also hitlerism um um and some of it is also hitlerism um as a as a leader cult and we see this in as a as a leader cult and we see this in as a as a leader cult and we see this in many other sort of many other sort of many other sort of you know things where where a political you know things where where a political you know things where where a political movement surrounds one particular movement surrounds one particular movement surrounds one particular individual who may or may not be individual who may or may not be individual who may or may not be replaceable replaceable replaceable um so so yes the world war ii we got um um so so yes the world war ii we got um um so so yes the world war ii we got um would have been completely different would have been completely different would have been completely different um if a different um sort of uh faction um if a different um sort of uh faction um if a different um sort of uh faction had risen to power in germany had risen to power in germany had risen to power in germany um but uh but europe you know depression um but uh but europe you know depression um but uh but europe you know depression era europe was so unstable era europe was so unstable era europe was so unstable and democracies collapsed throughout and democracies collapsed throughout and democracies collapsed throughout western europe over the course of the western europe over the course of the western europe over the course of the 1930s 1930s 1930s you know whether they had charismatic uh you know whether they had charismatic uh you know whether they had charismatic uh totalitarian leaders or not totalitarian leaders or not totalitarian leaders or not have you actually read have you actually read have you actually read one book i just recently one book i just recently one book i just recently finished i'd love to get your opinion finished i'd love to get your opinion finished i'd love to get your opinion from a historian perspective there's a from a historian perspective there's a from a historian perspective there's a book called blitzed drugs in the third book called blitzed drugs in the third book called blitzed drugs in the third reich by norman ohler reich by norman ohler reich by norman ohler it makes the case it makes the case it makes the case that drugs played a very large that drugs played a very large that drugs played a very large meth essentially played a very large meth essentially played a very large meth essentially played a very large role role role in world war ii in world war ii in world war ii there's a lot of criticism of this book there's a lot of criticism of this book there's a lot of criticism of this book saying that it's it's uh kind of to what saying that it's it's uh kind of to what saying that it's it's uh kind of to what you're saying you're saying you're saying it takes this one little variable and it takes this one little variable and it takes this one little variable and makes it like this explains everything makes it like this explains everything makes it like this explains everything so everything about hitler everything so everything about hitler everything so everything about hitler everything about the about the about the blitzkrieg everything about the military blitzkrieg everything about the military blitzkrieg everything about the military the the way the strategy the decisions the the way the strategy the decisions the the way the strategy the decisions could be explained through drugs or at could be explained through drugs or at could be explained through drugs or at least implies that kind of thing

least implies that kind of thing least implies that kind of thing um and the interesting thing about this um and the interesting thing about this um and the interesting thing about this book because hitler and nazi germany is book because hitler and nazi germany is book because hitler and nazi germany is one of the most sort of written about one of the most sort of written about one of the most sort of written about periods of human history periods of human history periods of human history and this was not drugs were almost and this was not drugs were almost and this was not drugs were almost entirely not written about entirely not written about entirely not written about in in this context so here come along in in this context so here come along in in this context so here come along this this this semi-historian because i don't think semi-historian because i don't think semi-historian because i don't think he's even a historian he's a um a lot of he's even a historian he's a um a lot of he's even a historian he's a um a lot of his work is fiction his work is fiction his work is fiction um hopefully i'm saying that correctly um hopefully i'm saying that correctly um hopefully i'm saying that correctly so he tells a really so he tells a really so he tells a really that's one of the criticisms he tells a that's one of the criticisms he tells a that's one of the criticisms he tells a very compelling story that drugs were at very compelling story that drugs were at very compelling story that drugs were at the center the center the center of um of um of um of this period and also of the man of of this period and also of the man of of this period and also of the man of hitler hitler hitler what are your what are your what are your sort of feelings and thoughts about sort of feelings and thoughts about sort of feelings and thoughts about um um um if you've gotten a chance to read this if you've gotten a chance to read this if you've gotten a chance to read this book but i'm sure there's books like it book but i'm sure there's books like it book but i'm sure there's books like it that tell an interesting perspective that tell an interesting perspective that tell an interesting perspective singular perspective on a war singular perspective on a war singular perspective on a war yeah i mean i i have read it and i i yeah i mean i i have read it and i i yeah i mean i i have read it and i i also had this sort of eye-opening also had this sort of eye-opening also had this sort of eye-opening experience that a lot of uh historians experience that a lot of uh historians experience that a lot of uh historians did and they're like why didn't why did and they're like why didn't why did and they're like why didn't why didn't we think about this right um and didn't we think about this right um and didn't we think about this right um and you know i think uh whether you know i think uh whether you know i think uh whether he's you know the the the author older he's you know the the the author older he's you know the the the author older is um you know sort of not a trained is um you know sort of not a trained is um you know sort of not a trained academic historian but the joy of academic historian but the joy of academic historian but the joy of history is like you don't have to be one history is like you don't have to be one history is like you don't have to be one to write good history um and i don't to write good history um and i don't to write good history um and i don't think anyone think anyone think anyone uh you know sort of criticizes him for uh you know sort of criticizes him for uh you know sort of criticizes him for for that for that for that um i like um i like um i like the book as a as a window into the third the book as a as a window into the third the book as a as a window into the third reich you know of course drugs don't reich you know of course drugs don't reich you know of course drugs don't explain all of it but it helps us see explain all of it but it helps us see explain all of it but it helps us see um you know uh it see helps us see the

um you know uh it see helps us see the um you know uh it see helps us see the people who supported hitler people who supported hitler people who supported hitler the ways in which the ways in which the ways in which um you know um you know um you know it was that it was that it was that mind altering and performance altering mind altering and performance altering mind altering and performance altering drugs were used to kind of keep soldiers drugs were used to kind of keep soldiers drugs were used to kind of keep soldiers on the battlefield and the ways in which on the battlefield and the ways in which on the battlefield and the ways in which um um um you know i think that you know i think that you know i think that we take we don't fully understand the we take we don't fully understand the we take we don't fully understand the extent to which the third reich is held extent to which the third reich is held extent to which the third reich is held together with like duct tape from um you together with like duct tape from um you together with like duct tape from um you know from a pretty early know from a pretty early know from a pretty early phase by like 1940 or 41 even you know phase by like 1940 or 41 even you know phase by like 1940 or 41 even you know it's all smoke and mirrors and it's all smoke and mirrors and it's all smoke and mirrors and i think that wartime propaganda both i think that wartime propaganda both i think that wartime propaganda both germans trying to say you know we're germans trying to say you know we're germans trying to say you know we're winning everything and america trying to winning everything and america trying to winning everything and america trying to mobilize uh and the other allies you mobilize uh and the other allies you mobilize uh and the other allies you know to mobilize against germany uh know to mobilize against germany uh know to mobilize against germany uh described a more formidable enemy than described a more formidable enemy than described a more formidable enemy than it really was by 1941 and 42. it really was by 1941 and 42. it really was by 1941 and 42. yeah i mean i could see both cases uh yeah i mean i could see both cases uh yeah i mean i could see both cases uh one is that duct tape doesn't make the one is that duct tape doesn't make the one is that duct tape doesn't make the man man man but also as an engineer i'm a huge fan but also as an engineer i'm a huge fan but also as an engineer i'm a huge fan of duct tape of duct tape of duct tape yeah because it does seem to solve a lot yeah because it does seem to solve a lot yeah because it does seem to solve a lot of problems and of problems and of problems and i do worry that i do worry that i do worry that this perspective this perspective this perspective that the book presents about drugs is that the book presents about drugs is that the book presents about drugs is somehow to the mind really compelling somehow to the mind really compelling somehow to the mind really compelling because it's almost like the mind or at because it's almost like the mind or at because it's almost like the mind or at least my mind searches for an answer how least my mind searches for an answer how least my mind searches for an answer how could this have happened could this have happened could this have happened and it's nice to have a clean and it's nice to have a clean and it's nice to have a clean explanation and drugs is one popular one explanation and drugs is one popular one explanation and drugs is one popular one when people talk about steroids and when people talk about steroids and when people talk about steroids and sports sports sports the moment you introduce the topic of the moment you introduce the topic of the moment you introduce the topic of steroids steroids steroids somehow the mind wants to explain all

somehow the mind wants to explain all somehow the mind wants to explain all success in the context was because this success in the context was because this success in the context was because this person was on steroids lance armstrong person was on steroids lance armstrong person was on steroids lance armstrong well well well it's it like it's a very sticky idea it's it like it's a very sticky idea it's it like it's a very sticky idea certain ideas certain explanations are certain ideas certain explanations are certain ideas certain explanations are very sticky and i think that's really very sticky and i think that's really very sticky and i think that's really dangerous because then you lose the full dangerous because then you lose the full dangerous because then you lose the full context and also in the case of drugs context and also in the case of drugs context and also in the case of drugs it removes the responsibility from the it removes the responsibility from the it removes the responsibility from the person person person both for the military genius both for the military genius both for the military genius and the evil and the evil and the evil and i think and i think and i think it's a very dangerous thing to do it's a very dangerous thing to do it's a very dangerous thing to do because something about the mind maybe because something about the mind maybe because something about the mind maybe it's just mine it's sticky to this well it's just mine it's sticky to this well it's just mine it's sticky to this well drugs explain it if the drugs didn't drugs explain it if the drugs didn't drugs explain it if the drugs didn't happen happen happen uh then it would be very different yeah uh then it would be very different yeah uh then it would be very different yeah it worries me it worries me it worries me how compelling it is of an explanation how compelling it is of an explanation how compelling it is of an explanation you know yeah so that's why it's maybe you know yeah so that's why it's maybe you know yeah so that's why it's maybe better to think of it as a window into better to think of it as a window into better to think of it as a window into the third round yes than an explanation the third round yes than an explanation the third round yes than an explanation of it but it's also a nice exploration of it but it's also a nice exploration of it but it's also a nice exploration of hitler the man of hitler the man of hitler the man for some reason discussing his habits for some reason discussing his habits for some reason discussing his habits especially later in the war especially later in the war especially later in the war um his practices with drugs um his practices with drugs um his practices with drugs gives you a window into the person it gives you a window into the person it gives you a window into the person it reminds you that reminds you that reminds you that as a human this is a human being as a human this is a human being as a human this is a human being like a human being get that gets like a human being get that gets like a human being get that gets emotional in the morning gets emotional in the morning gets emotional in the morning gets thoughtful in the morning hopeful thoughtful in the morning hopeful thoughtful in the morning hopeful sad sad sad depressed angry depressed angry depressed angry like a story of emotions of the human like a story of emotions of the human like a story of emotions of the human being is that somehow we construct um being is that somehow we construct um being is that somehow we construct um which is a pretty dangerous thing to do which is a pretty dangerous thing to do which is a pretty dangerous thing to do construct an evil monster out of hitler construct an evil monster out of hitler construct an evil monster out of hitler when in reality he's a human being like

when in reality he's a human being like when in reality he's a human being like all of us i think the lesson there is a all of us i think the lesson there is a all of us i think the lesson there is a soldier instant lesson which is soldier instant lesson which is soldier instant lesson which is all of us all of us all of us to some degree are capable of evil to some degree are capable of evil to some degree are capable of evil or maybe if you want to or maybe if you want to or maybe if you want to make it less powerful a statement make it less powerful a statement make it less powerful a statement many of our leaders are capable of evil many of our leaders are capable of evil many of our leaders are capable of evil that this hitler is not truly singular that this hitler is not truly singular that this hitler is not truly singular in history in history in history that uh yeah when the the resentment of that uh yeah when the the resentment of that uh yeah when the the resentment of the populace matches the right the populace matches the right the populace matches the right charismatic leader charismatic leader charismatic leader it's it's easy to make the kind of not it's it's easy to make the kind of not it's it's easy to make the kind of not easy but it it's possible to frequently easy but it it's possible to frequently easy but it it's possible to frequently make the kind of uh make the kind of uh make the kind of uh initiation of military conflict that initiation of military conflict that initiation of military conflict that happened in world war happened in world war happened in world war world war ii world war ii world war ii by the way because you said not a by the way because you said not a by the way because you said not a trained historian trained historian trained historian one of the one of the most compelling and i don't one of the most compelling and i don't know entertaining and fascinating know entertaining and fascinating know entertaining and fascinating exploration world war one comes from dan exploration world war one comes from dan exploration world war one comes from dan carlin i don't know if you've gotten a carlin i don't know if you've gotten a carlin i don't know if you've gotten a chance to chance to chance to listen to his sort of listen to his sort of listen to his sort of podcast form telling of the blueprint podcast form telling of the blueprint podcast form telling of the blueprint for ar armageddon which is the telling for ar armageddon which is the telling for ar armageddon which is the telling of world war one what do you think about of world war one what do you think about of world war one what do you think about dan carlin are you yourself as a dan carlin are you yourself as a dan carlin are you yourself as a historian who has studied who's written historian who has studied who's written historian who has studied who's written about world war one do you about world war one do you about world war one do you do you enjoy that kind of telling of do you enjoy that kind of telling of do you enjoy that kind of telling of history history history absolutely and i think absolutely and i think absolutely and i think again you know again you know again you know uh you don't need a phd in history to to uh you don't need a phd in history to to uh you don't need a phd in history to to be a historian right um does every be a historian right um does every be a historian right um does every historian agree with that uh he gets historian agree with that uh he gets historian agree with that uh he gets quite a bit of criticism from historians quite a bit of criticism from historians quite a bit of criticism from historians uh you know i mean uh you know i mean uh you know i mean we you know we like to argue with each we you know we like to argue with each we you know we like to argue with each other and pick with each other but um

other and pick with each other but um other and pick with each other but um but the one thing i have no patience for but the one thing i have no patience for but the one thing i have no patience for is when we like pull rank on each other is when we like pull rank on each other is when we like pull rank on each other you know i think you know i think you know i think um we depend on uh um we depend on uh um we depend on uh you know if you're you know a historian you know if you're you know a historian you know if you're you know a historian in a university with degrees and in a university with degrees and in a university with degrees and research materials you know you depend research materials you know you depend research materials you know you depend on the work of people in some local on the work of people in some local on the work of people in some local community like recording oral histories community like recording oral histories community like recording oral histories saving documents saving documents saving documents and and and history is a it's a social science but history is a it's a social science but history is a it's a social science but it's also a storytelling art it's also a storytelling art it's also a storytelling art and and and you know you know you know history books are the ones you find on history books are the ones you find on history books are the ones you find on the shelves and bookstores that people the shelves and bookstores that people the shelves and bookstores that people read for for fun and then and you can read for for fun and then and you can read for for fun and then and you can appreciate both the the knowledge appreciate both the the knowledge appreciate both the the knowledge production um as well as the production um as well as the production um as well as the storytelling um and when you get a good storytelling um and when you get a good storytelling um and when you get a good oral storyteller like dan carlin and oral storyteller like dan carlin and oral storyteller like dan carlin and there's a reason that there's a reason that there's a reason that thousands and hundreds of thousands of thousands and hundreds of thousands of thousands and hundreds of thousands of people tune in people tune in people tune in yeah but he definitely suffers from yeah but he definitely suffers from yeah but he definitely suffers from anxiety about getting things corrected anxiety about getting things corrected anxiety about getting things corrected it's very it's very difficult it's very it's very difficult it's very it's very difficult well our first job is to get the facts well our first job is to get the facts well our first job is to get the facts the facts correct and then and then to the facts correct and then and then to the facts correct and then and then to tell the story off of those tell the story off of those tell the story off of those because the the facts are so fuzzy so because the the facts are so fuzzy so because the the facts are so fuzzy so it's uh it's uh it's uh i mean you have the i mean you have the i mean you have the probably my favorite telling of world probably my favorite telling of world probably my favorite telling of world war ii war ii war ii is is is william shires rise and fall the third william shires rise and fall the third william shires rise and fall the third reich reich reich and uh or at least not telling of nazi and uh or at least not telling of nazi and uh or at least not telling of nazi germany and that germany and that germany and that goes to primary sources a lot goes to primary sources a lot goes to primary sources a lot which is which is which is like like like i suppose that's the honest way to do it i suppose that's the honest way to do it i suppose that's the honest way to do it but it's tough it's really tough to but it's tough it's really tough to but it's tough it's really tough to write that way to really go to primary write that way to really go to primary write that way to really go to primary sources

sources sources always and i think the one of the things always and i think the one of the things always and i think the one of the things that dan tries to do that dan tries to do that dan tries to do which is also really tough to do perhaps which is also really tough to do perhaps which is also really tough to do perhaps easier in oral history is uh easier in oral history is uh easier in oral history is uh try to make you feel what it was like to try to make you feel what it was like to try to make you feel what it was like to be there which i i think he does by trying to which i i think he does by trying to tell the story of like individual tell the story of like individual tell the story of like individual soldiers and soldiers and soldiers and [Music] [Music] [Music] do you find that telling do you find that telling do you find that telling like individual citizens do you find like individual citizens do you find like individual citizens do you find that kind of telling of history that kind of telling of history that kind of telling of history compelling compelling compelling yeah i mean i think we need a yeah i mean i think we need a yeah i mean i think we need a historical imagination historical imagination historical imagination and i think and i think and i think historical imagination teaches something historical imagination teaches something historical imagination teaches something very valuable which is humility very valuable which is humility very valuable which is humility to realize that to realize that to realize that there are there are there are other people other people other people who've lived on this planet and they who've lived on this planet and they who've lived on this planet and they organized their lives differently and organized their lives differently and organized their lives differently and you know they made it through just fine you know they made it through just fine you know they made it through just fine too um and too um and too um and um um um you know i think that that uh that kind you know i think that that uh that kind you know i think that that uh that kind of of of of of of of of of meeting other people from the past can meeting other people from the past can meeting other people from the past can be actually a very useful skill for be actually a very useful skill for be actually a very useful skill for meeting people unlike you in the present meeting people unlike you in the present meeting people unlike you in the present unlike you but also like you i think unlike you but also like you i think unlike you but also like you i think both are both are both are uh both are humbling one realizing that uh both are humbling one realizing that uh both are humbling one realizing that they lived in a different space and time they lived in a different space and time they lived in a different space and time but to realizing that if you if you were but to realizing that if you if you were but to realizing that if you if you were placed in that space and time you might placed in that space and time you might placed in that space and time you might have done have done have done all the same things whether it's the all the same things whether it's the all the same things whether it's the brave good thing or the evil thing brave good thing or the evil thing brave good thing or the evil thing yeah absolutely

yeah absolutely yeah absolutely and you get a also a sense of um and you get a also a sense of um and you get a also a sense of um of possibility you know there's this of possibility you know there's this of possibility you know there's this famous line right that um you know those famous line right that um you know those famous line right that um you know those who do not learn history are condemned who do not learn history are condemned who do not learn history are condemned to repeat it to repeat it to repeat it but i think the other half is true as but i think the other half is true as but i think the other half is true as well which is those who do not learn well which is those who do not learn well which is those who do not learn history history history don't get the chance to repeat it don't get the chance to repeat it don't get the chance to repeat it right you know that we're not the first right you know that we're not the first right you know that we're not the first people on this planet to face you know people on this planet to face you know people on this planet to face you know any certain kinds of problems um you any certain kinds of problems um you any certain kinds of problems um you know other people have have lived know other people have have lived know other people have have lived through worlds like this one before through worlds like this one before through worlds like this one before it's like when you fall in love as a it's like when you fall in love as a it's like when you fall in love as a teenager for the first time there's and teenager for the first time there's and teenager for the first time there's and then there's a breakup then there's a breakup then there's a breakup you think it it's the greatest strategy you think it it's the greatest strategy you think it it's the greatest strategy tragedy that has ever happened in the tragedy that has ever happened in the tragedy that has ever happened in the world you're the first person world you're the first person world you're the first person even though like even though like even though like romeo and juliet and so on had had this romeo and juliet and so on had had this romeo and juliet and so on had had this issue you're the first person that truly issue you're the first person that truly issue you're the first person that truly feels the catastrophic feels the catastrophic feels the catastrophic heartbreak of that experience heartbreak of that experience heartbreak of that experience it's good to be reminded that no it's good to be reminded that no it's good to be reminded that no the human condition is what it is we the human condition is what it is we the human condition is what it is we have lived through it at the individual have lived through it at the individual have lived through it at the individual in the societal scale let me ask about nationalism which i let me ask about nationalism which i think is at the core of i want you think is at the core of i want you think is at the core of i want you poster poster poster is nationalism destructive or empowering is nationalism destructive or empowering is nationalism destructive or empowering to a nation to a nation to a nation and we can use different words like and we can use different words like and we can use different words like patriotism which is in many ways patriotism which is in many ways patriotism which is in many ways synonymous to nationalism but synonymous to nationalism but synonymous to nationalism but in recent history perhaps because of the in recent history perhaps because of the in recent history perhaps because of the nazis nazis nazis has has has has has has slowly parted ways that somehow slowly parted ways that somehow slowly parted ways that somehow nationalism is when patriots and nationalism is when patriots and nationalism is when patriots and pictures haven't gone bad or something

pictures haven't gone bad or something pictures haven't gone bad or something like this yeah they're they're different like this yeah they're they're different like this yeah they're they're different right um patriotism um right um patriotism um right um patriotism um you know patriotism is in some ways best you know patriotism is in some ways best you know patriotism is in some ways best thought of as an emotion right and a thought of as an emotion right and a thought of as an emotion right and a feeling of of love of country right um feeling of of love of country right um feeling of of love of country right um you know literally um you know literally um you know literally um and in some ways that's a necessary and in some ways that's a necessary and in some ways that's a necessary condition to participate in nationalism condition to participate in nationalism condition to participate in nationalism you know whether you know whether you know whether to me i think nationalism is to me i think nationalism is to me i think nationalism is crucial crucial crucial in a world organized around nation in a world organized around nation in a world organized around nation states and you have to sort of states and you have to sort of states and you have to sort of believe believe believe that you are engaged in a common project that you are engaged in a common project that you are engaged in a common project together right um and so you know in the together right um and so you know in the together right um and so you know in the contemporary united states contemporary united states contemporary united states uh you know uh uh you know uh uh you know uh in some ways that that question is in some ways that that question is in some ways that that question is actually on the table in ways that it actually on the table in ways that it actually on the table in ways that it hasn't been in the past hasn't been in the past hasn't been in the past but you know you have to believe that but you know you have to believe that but you know you have to believe that you're engaged in a common project that you're engaged in a common project that you're engaged in a common project that you have something in common you have something in common you have something in common with the person with whom you share this with the person with whom you share this with the person with whom you share this nation um and um and that you would nation um and um and that you would nation um and um and that you would sacrifice for them whether it's by sacrifice for them whether it's by sacrifice for them whether it's by paying taxes for them or um you know or paying taxes for them or um you know or paying taxes for them or um you know or going to war to defend them um that's a going to war to defend them um that's a going to war to defend them um that's a vision of you know what we might call vision of you know what we might call vision of you know what we might call civic nationalism um civic nationalism um civic nationalism um that's that's the good version that's that's the good version that's that's the good version the question is whether you could have the question is whether you could have the question is whether you could have that that that without having without having without having um um um exclusionary nationalism you know hating exclusionary nationalism you know hating exclusionary nationalism you know hating the other right fearing the other saying the other right fearing the other saying the other right fearing the other saying uh yeah you're part of this nation uh uh yeah you're part of this nation uh uh yeah you're part of this nation uh against all others um and against all others um and against all others um and i think there's a long tradition in

i think there's a long tradition in i think there's a long tradition in america of a very inclusive america of a very inclusive america of a very inclusive nationalism um that is open nationalism um that is open nationalism um that is open inclusive welcoming inclusive welcoming inclusive welcoming um um um and you know new people to this shared and you know new people to this shared and you know new people to this shared project project project that's something to be defended that's something to be defended that's something to be defended exclusionary nationalism is based on you exclusionary nationalism is based on you exclusionary nationalism is based on you know know know uh uh uh ethnic hatreds and and others that we ethnic hatreds and and others that we ethnic hatreds and and others that we see throughout the world and those are see throughout the world and those are see throughout the world and those are things to be afraid of things to be afraid of things to be afraid of but there is a kind of narrative in the but there is a kind of narrative in the but there is a kind of narrative in the united states that united states that united states that a nationalism that includes the big a nationalism that includes the big a nationalism that includes the big umbrella of democratic nations umbrella of democratic nations umbrella of democratic nations nations that strive for freedom nations that strive for freedom nations that strive for freedom and everybody else is against and everybody else is against and everybody else is against is against freedom and against human is against freedom and against human is against freedom and against human nature and it just so happens that it's nature and it just so happens that it's nature and it just so happens that it's a half and half split across the world a half and half split across the world a half and half split across the world so that's imperialism so that's imperialism so that's imperialism that feels like it beats the drum of war that feels like it beats the drum of war that feels like it beats the drum of war yeah and i i mean i don't want to paint yeah and i i mean i don't want to paint yeah and i i mean i don't want to paint too rosy a picture and certainly you too rosy a picture and certainly you too rosy a picture and certainly you know the united states um as a nation know the united states um as a nation know the united states um as a nation has often found it easier to define has often found it easier to define has often found it easier to define ourselves against something um than to ourselves against something um than to ourselves against something um than to clarify exactly what we're for clarify exactly what we're for clarify exactly what we're for yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah the cold war the cold war the cold war china today china today china today not that's not only united states i not that's not only united states i not that's not only united states i suppose that's us human nature suppose that's us human nature suppose that's us human nature it's we need a competitor it's almost it's we need a competitor it's almost it's we need a competitor it's almost like like like maybe the success of human civilization maybe the success of human civilization maybe the success of human civilization requires requires requires figuring out how to construct figuring out how to construct figuring out how to construct competitors

competitors competitors that don't result in global war that don't result in global war that don't result in global war yes or figuring out yes or figuring out yes or figuring out how to turn enemies into rivals and how to turn enemies into rivals and how to turn enemies into rivals and competitors there's a real difference competitors there's a real difference competitors there's a real difference you know you can you you know you you know you can you you know you you know you can you you know you compete with competitors you you fight compete with competitors you you fight compete with competitors you you fight with enemies with enemies with enemies yeah with competitors is a respect maybe yeah with competitors is a respect maybe yeah with competitors is a respect maybe even a love even a love even a love underlying the competition what lessons what are the biggest what lessons what are the biggest lessons you take away from world war one lessons you take away from world war one lessons you take away from world war one maybe we talked about several but you maybe we talked about several but you maybe we talked about several but you know you look back at the 20th century know you look back at the 20th century know you look back at the 20th century what as a historian as a historian what do you learn about human nature what do you learn about human nature what do you learn about human nature about human civilization about human civilization about human civilization about history about history about history from looking at this war from looking at this war from looking at this war i think they the lesson i the lesson i would want everyone to take from the would want everyone to take from the would want everyone to take from the story of the first world war story of the first world war story of the first world war is is is that that that human life is not cheap human life is not cheap human life is not cheap um um um that all of the warring powers that all of the warring powers that all of the warring powers thought that just by throwing thought that just by throwing thought that just by throwing more men and more material at the front more men and more material at the front more men and more material at the front they would solve their political they would solve their political they would solve their political problems with military force problems with military force problems with military force and and and at the end of the day in 1918 one side at the end of the day in 1918 one side at the end of the day in 1918 one side did win that did win that did win that but it didn't actually solve any of but it didn't actually solve any of but it didn't actually solve any of those political problems and in the end

those political problems and in the end those political problems and in the end the regular the regular the regular people paid the price of their lives people paid the price of their lives people paid the price of their lives they did and people who they did and people who they did and people who people who had been told that their people who had been told that their people who had been told that their lives were cheap lives were cheap lives were cheap uh remembered that uh remembered that uh remembered that right right right and it sort of you know reshapes mass and it sort of you know reshapes mass and it sort of you know reshapes mass politics for the rest of the 20th politics for the rest of the 20th politics for the rest of the 20th century both in europe and around the century both in europe and around the century both in europe and around the world world world yeah the yeah the yeah the yeah the cost of a death of a single yeah the cost of a death of a single yeah the cost of a death of a single soldier is not just soldier is not just soldier is not just or a single civilian or a single civilian or a single civilian is not just the cost of that single life is not just the cost of that single life is not just the cost of that single life it's the resentment it's the resentment it's the resentment that the anger the hate that that the anger the hate that that the anger the hate that reverberates throughout one of the reverberates throughout one of the reverberates throughout one of the things i i saw in ukraine things i i saw in ukraine things i i saw in ukraine is the birth of is the birth of is the birth of at scale of generational hate at scale of generational hate at scale of generational hate not towards administrations or leaders not towards administrations or leaders not towards administrations or leaders but towards entire peoples but towards entire peoples but towards entire peoples and that hey and that hey and that hey i mean overnight that hate is created i mean overnight that hate is created i mean overnight that hate is created and it takes perhaps decades for that and it takes perhaps decades for that and it takes perhaps decades for that hate to dissipate hate to dissipate hate to dissipate it takes decades and it takes uh it takes decades and it takes uh it takes decades and it takes uh it takes collective effort to build it takes collective effort to build it takes collective effort to build institutions that divert that that hate institutions that divert that that hate institutions that divert that that hate into into into into other places into other places into other places one of the biggest one of the biggest one of the biggest things i thought was not part of the things i thought was not part of the things i thought was not part of the calculus calculus calculus in when the united states invaded in when the united states invaded in when the united states invaded afghanistan and iraq afghanistan and iraq afghanistan and iraq is is is the creation of hate the creation of hate the creation of hate when you when you drop a bomb even if it hits military targets even if even if it hits military targets even if it kills it kills it kills soldiers which in that case

soldiers which in that case soldiers which in that case it didn't there's a very large amount of it didn't there's a very large amount of it didn't there's a very large amount of civilians civilians civilians what does that do to the what does that do to the what does that do to the yeah like what yeah like what yeah like what um how um how um how many many many years years years minutes hours months and years of hate minutes hours months and years of hate minutes hours months and years of hate do you create with a single bomb you you do you create with a single bomb you you do you create with a single bomb you you drop and like calculate that like drop and like calculate that like drop and like calculate that like literally literally literally in the pentagon have a chart in the pentagon have a chart in the pentagon have a chart how many people will hate us how many people will hate us how many people will hate us uh how many people does it take do some uh how many people does it take do some uh how many people does it take do some science here how many people does it science here how many people does it science here how many people does it take take take uh when you have a million people that uh when you have a million people that uh when you have a million people that hate you how many of them will become hate you how many of them will become hate you how many of them will become terrorists terrorists terrorists uh how many of them uh how many of them uh how many of them uh will do something to uh will do something to uh will do something to the nation you love and care about which the nation you love and care about which the nation you love and care about which is the united states will do something is the united states will do something is the united states will do something that will be very costly that will be very costly that will be very costly i feel like there was not a plot in a i feel like there was not a plot in a i feel like there was not a plot in a chart chart chart it was more about short-term effects it was more about short-term effects it was more about short-term effects uh yes it's again it's the idea of using uh yes it's again it's the idea of using uh yes it's again it's the idea of using uh military force to solve political uh military force to solve political uh military force to solve political problems um and i think there's a problems um and i think there's a problems um and i think there's a squandering of of goodwill that people squandering of of goodwill that people squandering of of goodwill that people have around the world toward the united have around the world toward the united have around the world toward the united states um you know that's a states um you know that's a states um you know that's a respect for uh you know for its economy respect for uh you know for its economy respect for uh you know for its economy for its consumer products and so forth for its consumer products and so forth for its consumer products and so forth and i think that's um uh that's been and i think that's um uh that's been and i think that's um uh that's been lost a lot of that do you think leaders lost a lot of that do you think leaders lost a lot of that do you think leaders can stop war can stop war can stop war i have perhaps a romantic notion perhaps i have perhaps a romantic notion perhaps i have perhaps a romantic notion perhaps because i do these podcasts in person so because i do these podcasts in person so because i do these podcasts in person so on that leaders that get in a room on that leaders that get in a room on that leaders that get in a room together and can talk together and can talk together and can talk they can stop war they can stop war they can stop war i mean that's the power of a leader i mean that's the power of a leader i mean that's the power of a leader especially especially especially one with a in an authoritarian regime

one with a in an authoritarian regime one with a in an authoritarian regime that they can that they can that they can through camaraderie through camaraderie through camaraderie alleviate some of the emotions alleviate some of the emotions alleviate some of the emotions associated with the ego yes leaders can stop war if they get yes leaders can stop war if they get into the room into the room into the room when they understand um from when they understand um from when they understand um from the masses in their countries that were the masses in their countries that were the masses in their countries that were something that they want stopped something that they want stopped something that they want stopped so the people ultimately have a really so the people ultimately have a really so the people ultimately have a really big say they do you know that it was the big say they do you know that it was the big say they do you know that it was the it was mass movements by it was mass movements by it was mass movements by people in the united states for the people in the united states for the people in the united states for the nuclear freeze um in russia pushing for nuclear freeze um in russia pushing for nuclear freeze um in russia pushing for for openness that brought for example um for openness that brought for example um for openness that brought for example um ronald reagan and mikhail gorbachev to ronald reagan and mikhail gorbachev to ronald reagan and mikhail gorbachev to reykjavik to sort of debate reykjavik to sort of debate reykjavik to sort of debate um you know and eventually sort of put um you know and eventually sort of put um you know and eventually sort of put caps on on nuclear weapons caps on on nuclear weapons caps on on nuclear weapons you know those two people did you know you know those two people did you know you know those two people did you know made choices in the room that made that made choices in the room that made that made choices in the room that made that possible possible possible but they were both being pushed but they were both being pushed but they were both being pushed and knew they were being pushed by by and knew they were being pushed by by and knew they were being pushed by by their people their people their people boy boy boy that's a tough one it puts a lot of that's a tough one it puts a lot of that's a tough one it puts a lot of responsibility on the german people for responsibility on the german people for responsibility on the german people for example example example in both wars in both wars in both wars we fans of history tend to conceive of we fans of history tend to conceive of we fans of history tend to conceive of history as a meeting of leaders we think history as a meeting of leaders we think history as a meeting of leaders we think of chamberlain we think of churchill of chamberlain we think of churchill of chamberlain we think of churchill and the importance of them in the second and the importance of them in the second and the importance of them in the second world war i think about hitler and world war i think about hitler and world war i think about hitler and stalin and think that if certain stalin and think that if certain stalin and think that if certain conversations happen they could have the conversations happen they could have the conversations happen they could have the war could have been avoided war could have been avoided war could have been avoided you tell the story of how many times

you tell the story of how many times you tell the story of how many times hitler hitler hitler and nazi germany's military might and nazi germany's military might and nazi germany's military might was not sufficient they could have been was not sufficient they could have been was not sufficient they could have been easily stopped easily stopped easily stopped and the pacifists and the pacifists and the pacifists the people who the people who the people who believed hitler were foolish enough to believed hitler were foolish enough to believed hitler were foolish enough to believe hitler believe hitler believe hitler didn't act properly and if the leaders didn't act properly and if the leaders didn't act properly and if the leaders just woke up to that idea just woke up to that idea just woke up to that idea in fact in fact in fact um um um churchill is a kind of representation of churchill is a kind of representation of churchill is a kind of representation of that but in your conception here it's that but in your conception here it's that but in your conception here it's possible that churchill was also a possible that churchill was also a possible that churchill was also a representation of the british people representation of the british people representation of the british people even though seemingly unpopular even though seemingly unpopular even though seemingly unpopular he he he that force was that force was that force was um um um they gave birth to somebody like they gave birth to somebody like they gave birth to somebody like churchill churchill churchill who said we'll never surrender right who said we'll never surrender right who said we'll never surrender right yes she'll fight in the beaches yeah yes she'll fight in the beaches yeah yes she'll fight in the beaches yeah and it you know it's a i think uh world and it you know it's a i think uh world and it you know it's a i think uh world war ii britain is a good example of that war ii britain is a good example of that war ii britain is a good example of that you know it's uh it is clearly a you you know it's uh it is clearly a you you know it's uh it is clearly a you know a dynamic leader who has his pulse know a dynamic leader who has his pulse know a dynamic leader who has his pulse on what the people on what the people on what the people are want and demand and are willing to are want and demand and are willing to are want and demand and are willing to do um and you know it's a dynamic art of do um and you know it's a dynamic art of do um and you know it's a dynamic art of of leading that of leading that of leading that uh and shaping those wants at the same uh and shaping those wants at the same uh and shaping those wants at the same time as as knowing that you're you're time as as knowing that you're you're time as as knowing that you're you're bound by them bound by them bound by them well then if we conceive of history in well then if we conceive of history in well then if we conceive of history in this way let me ask you this way let me ask you this way let me ask you about our presidents about our presidents about our presidents you are taking on the uh impossibly you are taking on the uh impossibly you are taking on the uh impossibly difficult task of teaching a course difficult task of teaching a course difficult task of teaching a course in uh in a couple of years here or in in uh in a couple of years here or in in uh in a couple of years here or in one year one year one year called the history of american called the history of american called the history of american presidential elections

so if the people are in part responsible so if the people are in part responsible for leaders how can we explain how can we explain um um um what is going on in america that we have what is going on in america that we have what is going on in america that we have the leaders that we do today the leaders that we do today the leaders that we do today so the if we think about the so the if we think about the so the if we think about the elections of the past several cycles i guess let me ask are we a divided i guess let me ask are we a divided nation are we more of a divided nation nation are we more of a divided nation nation are we more of a divided nation than were in the past than were in the past than were in the past what what what do you understand about the american do you understand about the american do you understand about the american citizen at the beginning of this century citizen at the beginning of this century citizen at the beginning of this century uh from the leaders we have elected uh from the leaders we have elected uh from the leaders we have elected yes obviously we are a divided country yes obviously we are a divided country yes obviously we are a divided country in our rhetoric in our rhetoric in our rhetoric in in in our day-to-day politics um uh our day-to-day politics um uh our day-to-day politics um uh but but but we are nowhere near as divided as we we are nowhere near as divided as we we are nowhere near as divided as we have been in other periods in our have been in other periods in our have been in other periods in our history right the most obvious of course history right the most obvious of course history right the most obvious of course being in the american civil war right being in the american civil war right being in the american civil war right 150 years ago 150 years ago 150 years ago and and and the distinction is not just that you the distinction is not just that you the distinction is not just that you know we haven't come to blows know we haven't come to blows know we haven't come to blows but but but that we that we that we are fundamentally one society one are fundamentally one society one are fundamentally one society one economy economy economy and sort of you know deeply integrated and sort of you know deeply integrated and sort of you know deeply integrated as a nation as a nation as a nation both both both domestically and on the world stage in domestically and on the world stage in domestically and on the world stage in ways that you know look nothing like the ways that you know look nothing like the ways that you know look nothing like the united states in 1861.

united states in 1861. united states in 1861. um you know will there be you know will um you know will there be you know will um you know will there be you know will political rhetoric um continue to be political rhetoric um continue to be political rhetoric um continue to be extreme of course um extreme of course um extreme of course um but uh but but we're we're not as but uh but but we're we're not as but uh but but we're we're not as divided as people think we are well well um um um then then then if you actually look throughout human if you actually look throughout human if you actually look throughout human history does it always get so outside history does it always get so outside history does it always get so outside the people do the elections get the people do the elections get the people do the elections get as contentious as they've recently been as contentious as they've recently been as contentious as they've recently been so there's a kind of perception has been so there's a kind of perception has been so there's a kind of perception has been very close and there's very close and there's very close and there's a lot of accusations a lot of tensions a lot of accusations a lot of tensions a lot of accusations a lot of tensions it's very heated it's almost fueling the it's very heated it's almost fueling the it's very heated it's almost fueling the machine of division machine of division machine of division has that often been the case it has we has that often been the case it has we has that often been the case it has we are um are um are um it hasn't it hasn't i mean i do think it hasn't it hasn't i mean i do think it hasn't it hasn't i mean i do think right now is is different um and there right now is is different um and there right now is is different um and there it's worth distinguishing it's worth distinguishing it's worth distinguishing you know are there deep social or you know are there deep social or you know are there deep social or economic divisions which i don't economic divisions which i don't economic divisions which i don't actually think that there are versus actually think that there are versus actually think that there are versus partisanship in particular sort of the partisanship in particular sort of the partisanship in particular sort of the rivalry between the two parties and it's rivalry between the two parties and it's rivalry between the two parties and it's very clear that we are in an era of what very clear that we are in an era of what very clear that we are in an era of what we what political scientists call we what political scientists call we what political scientists call hyperpartisanship hyperpartisanship hyperpartisanship right and that the two parties have right and that the two parties have right and that the two parties have taken sort of taken sort of taken sort of fundamentally different positions and fundamentally different positions and fundamentally different positions and moved further moved further moved further you know apart from one another you know apart from one another you know apart from one another and um you know and that is and um you know and that is and um you know and that is what i think people talk about when they what i think people talk about when they what i think people talk about when they say our country is divided so the say our country is divided so the say our country is divided so the country may not be divided even if our country may not be divided even if our country may not be divided even if our politics are highly partisan politics are highly partisan politics are highly partisan that is uh you know a divergence from that is uh you know a divergence from that is uh you know a divergence from from other time periods in our history

from other time periods in our history from other time periods in our history so i wonder if this kind of political so i wonder if this kind of political so i wonder if this kind of political partisanship partisanship partisanship is actually is actually is actually an illusion of division an illusion of division an illusion of division i sometimes feel like i sometimes feel like i sometimes feel like we mostly all agree we mostly all agree we mostly all agree on some basic fundamentals on some basic fundamentals on some basic fundamentals and and the things that people allegedly and and the things that people allegedly and and the things that people allegedly disagree on are really blown out of disagree on are really blown out of disagree on are really blown out of proportion and there's like a media proportion and there's like a media proportion and there's like a media machine and the politicians really want machine and the politicians really want machine and the politicians really want you to pick a a blue side and a red side you to pick a a blue side and a red side you to pick a a blue side and a red side and because of that and because of that and because of that somehow i mean families break up over somehow i mean families break up over somehow i mean families break up over thanksgiving dinner about who they voted thanksgiving dinner about who they voted thanksgiving dinner about who they voted for there's a really strong pressure to for there's a really strong pressure to for there's a really strong pressure to be the red or blue be the red or blue be the red or blue and and and i wonder if that's a feature or a bug i wonder if that's a feature or a bug i wonder if that's a feature or a bug whether this is just part of the whether this is just part of the whether this is just part of the mechanism of democracy that we want to mechanism of democracy that we want to mechanism of democracy that we want to even if there's not a real thing to be even if there's not a real thing to be even if there's not a real thing to be divided over we need to construct it divided over we need to construct it divided over we need to construct it such that you can always have a tension such that you can always have a tension such that you can always have a tension of id attention of ideas of id attention of ideas of id attention of ideas in order to in order to in order to make progress to figure out how to make progress to figure out how to make progress to figure out how to progress as a nation progress as a nation progress as a nation i think we're figuring that out in real i think we're figuring that out in real i think we're figuring that out in real time right on the one hand it's uh it's time right on the one hand it's uh it's time right on the one hand it's uh it's easy to say that it's a feature of uh of easy to say that it's a feature of uh of easy to say that it's a feature of uh of a political system a political system a political system that has two parties right and the that has two parties right and the that has two parties right and the united states is in some ways unique united states is in some ways unique united states is in some ways unique right in right in right in in not being a parliamentary democracy in not being a parliamentary democracy in not being a parliamentary democracy and so in some ways it you would think and so in some ways it you would think and so in some ways it you would think that would be the feature that is that would be the feature that is that would be the feature that is causing causing causing uh partisanship and to reach these uh partisanship and to reach these uh partisanship and to reach these heights heights heights that said

that said that said um you know we can even see in um you know we can even see in um you know we can even see in parliamentary systems and you know all parliamentary systems and you know all parliamentary systems and you know all around the world that the same kinds of around the world that the same kinds of around the world that the same kinds of rhetorics of of irreconcilable division rhetorics of of irreconcilable division rhetorics of of irreconcilable division a kind of politics of emotion a kind of politics of emotion a kind of politics of emotion are proliferating around the world are proliferating around the world are proliferating around the world some of that some of that some of that as you say i think is is as you say i think is is as you say i think is is not as real as as it appears on on not as real as as it appears on on not as real as as it appears on on television on social media and other television on social media and other television on social media and other formats formats formats so you know i don't i don't know that so you know i don't i don't know that so you know i don't i don't know that other countries are um that are other countries are um that are other countries are um that are experiencing sort of political conflict experiencing sort of political conflict experiencing sort of political conflict i'm not sure that they're deeply divided i'm not sure that they're deeply divided i'm not sure that they're deeply divided either either either so so so i've uh had the fortune i've uh had the fortune i've uh had the fortune of being intellectually active through of being intellectually active through of being intellectually active through the george bush versus al gore election the george bush versus al gore election the george bush versus al gore election then the obama and just every election then the obama and just every election then the obama and just every election since right since right since right and it seems like a large percentage of and it seems like a large percentage of and it seems like a large percentage of those elections those elections those elections there's been a claim that the elections there's been a claim that the elections there's been a claim that the elections were rigged were rigged were rigged that there is some that there is some that there is some conspiracy corruption malevolence on the conspiracy corruption malevolence on the conspiracy corruption malevolence on the on the other side i distinctly remember on the other side i distinctly remember on the other side i distinctly remember when donald trump won in 2016 when donald trump won in 2016 when donald trump won in 2016 a lot of a lot of a lot of people i know said that election was people i know said that election was people i know said that election was rigged and there's different rigged and there's different rigged and there's different explanations including russian explanations including russian explanations including russian influence influence influence and then in 2020 i was just running in and then in 2020 i was just running in and then in 2020 i was just running in in austin in austin in austin along the river along the river along the river and somebody said like oh a huge fan and somebody said like oh a huge fan and somebody said like oh a huge fan of the podcast and they said like what

of the podcast and they said like what of the podcast and they said like what do you think about this is just not do you think about this is just not do you think about this is just not right what's happening in this country right what's happening in this country right what's happening in this country that um the 2020 election was obviously that um the 2020 election was obviously that um the 2020 election was obviously rigged rigged rigged uh from their perspective uh from their perspective uh from their perspective uh in electing joe biden versus donald trump electing joe biden versus donald trump do you think there's a case to be made do you think there's a case to be made do you think there's a case to be made for and against each claim for and against each claim for and against each claim in the full context of history in the full context of history in the full context of history of of of our elections being rigged our elections being rigged our elections being rigged i think i think i think the american election system is the american election system is the american election system is fundamentally sound fundamentally sound fundamentally sound and reliable and i think that the and i think that the evidence evidence evidence you know is is clear for that um you you know is is clear for that um you you know is is clear for that um you know regardless of which uh election know regardless of which uh election know regardless of which uh election you're looking at in some ways whether you're looking at in some ways whether you're looking at in some ways whether even you know you look at a presidential even you know you look at a presidential even you know you look at a presidential election or even a local you know county election or even a local you know county election or even a local you know county election for dog catcher or something election for dog catcher or something election for dog catcher or something right right right that the that the that the um you know the amount of sort of time um you know the amount of sort of time um you know the amount of sort of time and resources and precision that go into and resources and precision that go into and resources and precision that go into uh voter registration vote counting um uh voter registration vote counting um uh voter registration vote counting um certification processes certification processes certification processes are are are crucial to crucial to crucial to democratic institutions democratic institutions democratic institutions i think when someone says i think when someone says i think when someone says rigged rigged rigged regardless of which side of the regardless of which side of the regardless of which side of the political spectrum they're coming from political spectrum they're coming from political spectrum they're coming from um um um they're looking they're looking they're looking for an answer for an answer for an answer that that that you know they're looking for that one

you know they're looking for that one you know they're looking for that one answer answer answer for what is in fact a complex system for what is in fact a complex system for what is in fact a complex system right so you know on the left when they right so you know on the left when they right so you know on the left when they say rigged say rigged say rigged they may be pointing to a wide range of they may be pointing to a wide range of they may be pointing to a wide range of of ways in which they think that the of ways in which they think that the of ways in which they think that the system system system um is is tilted um through you know um is is tilted um through you know um is is tilted um through you know gerrymandering gerrymandering gerrymandering you know sort of misrepresentation you know sort of misrepresentation you know sort of misrepresentation through the electoral college um on the through the electoral college um on the through the electoral college um on the right when people say rigged they may be right when people say rigged they may be right when people say rigged they may be concerned uh you know about concerned uh you know about concerned uh you know about about about about you know sort of voter security about you know sort of voter security about you know sort of voter security about ways in which the media pre may you know ways in which the media pre may you know ways in which the media pre may you know mainstream media may control mainstream media may control mainstream media may control messages messages messages and in which you know in both cases and in which you know in both cases and in which you know in both cases the feeling is the feeling is the feeling is my my my it's articulated as my vote didn't get it's articulated as my vote didn't get it's articulated as my vote didn't get counted right counted right counted right but the deeper concern is but the deeper concern is but the deeper concern is my my vote doesn't count you know my my my vote doesn't count you know my my my vote doesn't count you know my voice voice voice isn't being heard isn't being heard isn't being heard um so um so um so so no i don't think i don't think the so no i don't think i don't think the so no i don't think i don't think the elections are rigged so let me sort of elections are rigged so let me sort of elections are rigged so let me sort of push back right push back right push back right there's a comfort to the story that there's a comfort to the story that there's a comfort to the story that they're not rigged they're not rigged they're not rigged and a lot of us like to live in comfort and a lot of us like to live in comfort and a lot of us like to live in comfort so people who articulate conspiracy so people who articulate conspiracy so people who articulate conspiracy theories say sure it's nice to be theories say sure it's nice to be theories say sure it's nice to be comfortable but here's the reality and comfortable but here's the reality and comfortable but here's the reality and the thing they articulate is there's the thing they articulate is there's the thing they articulate is there's incentives in close elections which we incentives in close elections which we incentives in close elections which we seem to have non-stop close elections seem to have non-stop close elections seem to have non-stop close elections there's so many financial interests

there's so many financial interests there's so many financial interests there's so many powerful people there's so many powerful people there's so many powerful people surely you can construct not just with surely you can construct not just with surely you can construct not just with the media the media the media and all the ways you describe both on and all the ways you describe both on and all the ways you describe both on the left and the right the elections the left and the right the elections the left and the right the elections could be rigged but literally could be rigged but literally could be rigged but literally actually actually actually in a in a in a fully illegal way fully illegal way fully illegal way manipulate the results of manipulate the results of manipulate the results of votes votes votes surely there's incentive to do that surely there's incentive to do that surely there's incentive to do that and and and i don't think that's i don't think that's i don't think that's uh that's a totally ridiculous argument uh that's a totally ridiculous argument uh that's a totally ridiculous argument because it's like all right well because it's like all right well because it's like all right well um i mean it actually lands um i mean it actually lands um i mean it actually lands to the question to the question to the question uh which is a hard question for me to uh which is a hard question for me to uh which is a hard question for me to ask us ultimately as an optimist ask us ultimately as an optimist ask us ultimately as an optimist of of of how many malevolent people out there and how many malevolent people out there and how many malevolent people out there and how many malevolent people are required how many malevolent people are required how many malevolent people are required to rig an election to rig an election to rig an election so how many what is the face transition so how many what is the face transition so how many what is the face transition for a system to become from like uh for a system to become from like uh for a system to become from like uh corruption light to corruption corruption light to corruption corruption light to corruption uh to high level of corruption such that uh to high level of corruption such that uh to high level of corruption such that you could do things like regulations you could do things like regulations you could do things like regulations which is what happens which is what happens which is what happens quite a lot in many nations in um in the quite a lot in many nations in um in the quite a lot in many nations in um in the world even today world even today world even today so yes there is interference in so yes there is interference in so yes there is interference in elections and there has been in american elections and there has been in american elections and there has been in american history right and we can go all the way history right and we can go all the way history right and we can go all the way back into the the you know into the 18th back into the the you know into the 18th back into the the you know into the 18th century um you don't have to go back to century um you don't have to go back to century um you don't have to go back to you know texas in the 1960s uh at lbj to you know texas in the 1960s uh at lbj to you know texas in the 1960s uh at lbj to to find examples of of direct to find examples of of direct to find examples of of direct interference in the outcome of elections

interference in the outcome of elections interference in the outcome of elections and there are incentives to do that and there are incentives to do that and there are incentives to do that those incentives will only feel more those incentives will only feel more those incentives will only feel more existential existential existential as hyperpartisanship as hyperpartisanship as hyperpartisanship makes people think that the outcome of makes people think that the outcome of makes people think that the outcome of the elections are um you know are aren't the elections are um you know are aren't the elections are um you know are aren't are a matter of you know black and white are a matter of you know black and white are a matter of you know black and white or life and death or life and death or life and death um um um and um you will see people sort of and um you will see people sort of and um you will see people sort of organizing sort of um uh every way they organizing sort of um uh every way they organizing sort of um uh every way they can to shape elections right we saw this can to shape elections right we saw this can to shape elections right we saw this in the 1850s right when settlers you in the 1850s right when settlers you in the 1850s right when settlers you know pro and anti-slavery sort of know pro and anti-slavery sort of know pro and anti-slavery sort of flooded into kansas um to try to sort of flooded into kansas um to try to sort of flooded into kansas um to try to sort of uh you know uh determine the outcome of uh you know uh determine the outcome of uh you know uh determine the outcome of an election and we see this in the an election and we see this in the an election and we see this in the reconstruction period right when the ku reconstruction period right when the ku reconstruction period right when the ku klux klan shows up to kind of you know klux klan shows up to kind of you know klux klan shows up to kind of you know to block the doors for for black voters to block the doors for for black voters to block the doors for for black voters in the south um you know that the with in the south um you know that the with in the south um you know that the with that this history is not new it's it's that this history is not new it's it's that this history is not new it's it's there i think what um there i think what um there i think what um what the reason why i think that the what the reason why i think that the what the reason why i think that the system is sound is um is not or the system is sound is um is not or the system is sound is um is not or the reason when i say i believe that the reason when i say i believe that the reason when i say i believe that the election system is fundamentally sound election system is fundamentally sound election system is fundamentally sound um it's not um i'm not trying to be um it's not um i'm not trying to be um it's not um i'm not trying to be reassuring um or encourage complacency reassuring um or encourage complacency reassuring um or encourage complacency right i'm saying like you know this is right i'm saying like you know this is right i'm saying like you know this is something that we need to to do and to something that we need to to do and to something that we need to to do and to work on work on work on so the current electoral mechanisms so the current electoral mechanisms so the current electoral mechanisms are are are are are are sufficiently robust sufficiently robust sufficiently robust even if there is corruption even if even if there is corruption even if even if there is corruption even if there is rigging they're robot like uh there is rigging they're robot like uh there is rigging they're robot like uh the force that corrects it self corrects

the force that corrects it self corrects the force that corrects it self corrects and ensures that nobody gets out of line and ensures that nobody gets out of line and ensures that nobody gets out of line is much stronger than the other is much stronger than the other is much stronger than the other incentives which are like the corrupting incentives which are like the corrupting incentives which are like the corrupting incentives and that's the thing i incentives and that's the thing i incentives and that's the thing i um talked about corrupt you know um talked about corrupt you know um talked about corrupt you know visiting ukraine talking about visiting ukraine talking about visiting ukraine talking about corruption corruption corruption what a lot of people talk about what a lot of people talk about what a lot of people talk about corruption as being a symptom not if the corruption as being a symptom not if the corruption as being a symptom not if the system allows system allows system allows creates the incentives creates the incentives creates the incentives for there to be corruption humans will for there to be corruption humans will for there to be corruption humans will always go for corruption that's just you always go for corruption that's just you always go for corruption that's just you have to assume that the power of the have to assume that the power of the have to assume that the power of the united states is that it constructs united states is that it constructs united states is that it constructs systems that systems that systems that prevent you from being corrupt at scale prevent you from being corrupt at scale prevent you from being corrupt at scale at least i mean depends what you believe at least i mean depends what you believe at least i mean depends what you believe but most of us but most of us but most of us if you believe in this country you have if you believe in this country you have if you believe in this country you have to to to you believe in the in the you believe in the in the you believe in the in the self-correcting mechanisms of corruption self-correcting mechanisms of corruption self-correcting mechanisms of corruption that uh even if that desire is in the that uh even if that desire is in the that uh even if that desire is in the human heart human heart human heart the system resists it prevents it the system resists it prevents it the system resists it prevents it that's that's your that's that's your that's that's your that's your current belief uh that's your current belief uh that's your current belief uh yes as of today yes as of today yes as of today but i do you know i do think that those but i do you know i do think that those but i do you know i do think that those um you know the that will require um um you know the that will require um um you know the that will require um oversight by institutions ideally oversight by institutions ideally oversight by institutions ideally ones that are insulated as much as ones that are insulated as much as ones that are insulated as much as possible from partisan politics which is possible from partisan politics which is possible from partisan politics which is very difficult right now very difficult right now very difficult right now um and it will require uh um and it will require uh um and it will require uh the demands of of the american people the demands of of the american people the demands of of the american people and that they you know that they want um and that they you know that they want um and that they you know that they want um these elections to be these elections to be these elections to be to be fair and secure to be fair and secure to be fair and secure and that means you know that means and that means you know that means and that means you know that means being willing to lose them you know being willing to lose them you know being willing to lose them you know regardless of which which party you're

regardless of which which party you're regardless of which which party you're you're in favor of so what do you think you're in favor of so what do you think you're in favor of so what do you think about the power of the media to create about the power of the media to create about the power of the media to create partisanship i'm really worried that partisanship i'm really worried that partisanship i'm really worried that there's a huge incentive speaking of there's a huge incentive speaking of there's a huge incentive speaking of incentives to divide the country in the incentives to divide the country in the incentives to divide the country in the in the media and the politicians i'm not in the media and the politicians i'm not in the media and the politicians i'm not sure where it originates but it feels sure where it originates but it feels sure where it originates but it feels like it's the media maybe it's a very like it's the media maybe it's a very like it's the media maybe it's a very cynical perspective on journalism but cynical perspective on journalism but cynical perspective on journalism but it seems like if we're angry and divided it seems like if we're angry and divided it seems like if we're angry and divided as evenly as possible you're going to as evenly as possible you're going to as evenly as possible you're going to maximize the number of clicks maximize the number of clicks maximize the number of clicks so it's almost like the media wants to so it's almost like the media wants to so it's almost like the media wants to elect people that are going to be the elect people that are going to be the elect people that are going to be the most uh most uh most uh divisive maximizing divisive maximizing divisive maximizing and and and the worry i have the worry i have the worry i have is they is they is they are not beyond are not beyond are not beyond either feeding or if you want to be very either feeding or if you want to be very either feeding or if you want to be very cynical manufacturing narratives cynical manufacturing narratives cynical manufacturing narratives that lead that division like the that lead that division like the that lead that division like the narrative of an election being rigged narrative of an election being rigged narrative of an election being rigged because if you convinced half the because if you convinced half the because if you convinced half the populace that the election was populace that the election was populace that the election was completely rigged completely rigged completely rigged that's a really good way that's a really good way that's a really good way to get a lot of clicks to get a lot of clicks to get a lot of clicks and and like and and like and and like the very cynical view the very cynical view the very cynical view is i don't know if the media machine will stop the destruction of our will stop the destruction of our democracy democracy democracy uh in service of getting more clicks uh in service of getting more clicks uh in service of getting more clicks it may destroy our entire democracy just it may destroy our entire democracy just it may destroy our entire democracy just to get more clicks just uh because the to get more clicks just uh because the to get more clicks just uh because the fire as the thing burns down fire as the thing burns down fire as the thing burns down uh will get clicks uh will get clicks uh will get clicks is am i putting too much blame on the is am i putting too much blame on the is am i putting too much blame on the media here media here media here um the machine of it you're diagnosing

um the machine of it you're diagnosing um the machine of it you're diagnosing the incentive structure um you know the incentive structure um you know the incentive structure um you know you're depicting that with 100 accuracy you're depicting that with 100 accuracy you're depicting that with 100 accuracy but uh i think history teaches that you but uh i think history teaches that you but uh i think history teaches that you might be giving the media too much might be giving the media too much might be giving the media too much sort of causal power sort of causal power sort of causal power that uh you know that the american that uh you know that the american that uh you know that the american people are smarter than the media that people are smarter than the media that people are smarter than the media that they consume right and um you know and they consume right and um you know and they consume right and um you know and even even today we we know that right even even today we we know that right even even today we we know that right people who consume people who consume people who consume you know even people who consume just you know even people who consume just you know even people who consume just fox or just msnbc fox or just msnbc fox or just msnbc know what they're consuming right know what they're consuming right know what they're consuming right and you know so i don't think that media and you know so i don't think that media and you know so i don't think that media will be will be will be the solution the solution the solution and i certainly don't think that and i certainly don't think that and i certainly don't think that returning to returning to returning to a media structure of the mid 20th a media structure of the mid 20th a media structure of the mid 20th century with you know three century with you know three century with you know three news channels that all tell us one story news channels that all tell us one story news channels that all tell us one story is that's no golden age that we're is that's no golden age that we're is that's no golden age that we're trying to get back to trying to get back to trying to get back to uh uh uh for sure well there's a there is a novel for sure well there's a there is a novel for sure well there's a there is a novel thing in human history which is twitter thing in human history which is twitter thing in human history which is twitter and social media and so on and social media and so on and social media and so on so we're trying to find our footing as a so we're trying to find our footing as a so we're trying to find our footing as a nation to figure out how to think about nation to figure out how to think about nation to figure out how to think about politics how to um yeah how to politics how to um yeah how to politics how to um yeah how to maintain maintain maintain our basic freedoms our sense of uh our basic freedoms our sense of uh our basic freedoms our sense of uh [Music] [Music] [Music] democracy of our interaction with democracy of our interaction with democracy of our interaction with government and so on on this new media government and so on on this new media government and so on on this new media where where where medium of social media medium of social media medium of social media uh uh uh do you think twitter how do you think do you think twitter how do you think do you think twitter how do you think twitter changed things twitter changed things twitter changed things do you think twitter is good for

do you think twitter is good for do you think twitter is good for democracy democracy democracy and do you think it has changed what it and do you think it has changed what it and do you think it has changed what it means to be an american citizen means to be an american citizen means to be an american citizen uh or is it just the same old media uh or is it just the same old media uh or is it just the same old media mechanism it has not changed what it mechanism it has not changed what it mechanism it has not changed what it means to be an american citizen um it means to be an american citizen um it means to be an american citizen um it has uh it may have changed the um has uh it may have changed the um has uh it may have changed the um the the day-to-day the the day-to-day the the day-to-day sound of of being and you know the the sound of of being and you know the the sound of of being and you know the the experience of it it got noisier it got experience of it it got noisier it got experience of it it got noisier it got louder louder louder um and it got more um and it got more um and it got more decentered decentered decentered i think i think i think twitter is a twitter is a twitter is a it's paradoxical on the one hand it is a it's paradoxical on the one hand it is a it's paradoxical on the one hand it is a fundamentally democratic uh platform fundamentally democratic uh platform fundamentally democratic uh platform right you know any and in some ways it right you know any and in some ways it right you know any and in some ways it democratizes institutions that um you democratizes institutions that um you democratizes institutions that um you know that had know that had know that had had gatekeepers and and you know had gatekeepers and and you know had gatekeepers and and you know authority figures for a very long time authority figures for a very long time authority figures for a very long time but on the other hand it's it's not a but on the other hand it's it's not a but on the other hand it's it's not a democratic institution at all it's a democratic institution at all it's a democratic institution at all it's a for-profit corporation um and you know for-profit corporation um and you know for-profit corporation um and you know it operates under under those principles it operates under under those principles it operates under under those principles um and so you know that said it's a you um and so you know that said it's a you um and so you know that said it's a you know is an institution of american and know is an institution of american and know is an institution of american and global life global life global life and that the people and that the people and that the people of of the united states have uh have the of of the united states have uh have the of of the united states have uh have the authority to to authority to to authority to to regulate or reshape as as they see fit regulate or reshape as as they see fit regulate or reshape as as they see fit both that and and other major media both that and and other major media both that and and other major media players so one of the most dramatic players so one of the most dramatic players so one of the most dramatic decisions that illustrate both sides of decisions that illustrate both sides of decisions that illustrate both sides of what you're saying is when twitter what you're saying is when twitter what you're saying is when twitter decided to ban i think permanently decided to ban i think permanently decided to ban i think permanently the president of united states donald the president of united states donald the president of united states donald trump off of twitter

trump off of twitter trump off of twitter can you can you can you make the case that that was a good idea make the case that that was a good idea make the case that that was a good idea and make the case that that was a bad and make the case that that was a bad and make the case that that was a bad idea can you see both perspective on idea can you see both perspective on idea can you see both perspective on this this this yes i think um yes i think um yes i think um i mean the simple fact of the matter is i mean the simple fact of the matter is i mean the simple fact of the matter is um um um you know twitter is a platform it has uh you know twitter is a platform it has uh you know twitter is a platform it has uh rules of service twitter concluded rules of service twitter concluded rules of service twitter concluded that president trump had violated the that president trump had violated the that president trump had violated the terms of service and then blocked them terms of service and then blocked them terms of service and then blocked them right and if you have roles you have to right and if you have roles you have to right and if you have roles you have to enforce them enforce them enforce them um um um did it have um you know did it have did it have um you know did it have did it have um you know did it have consequences um consequences um consequences um it had it had it had direct and predictable consequences um direct and predictable consequences um direct and predictable consequences um you know that you know that you know that of of of creating a sense among millions of americans that a sense among millions of americans that twitter twitter twitter had taken aside in politics had taken aside in politics had taken aside in politics um um um or confirming their their belief that it or confirming their their belief that it or confirming their their belief that it had done so had done so had done so um will it have unintended consequences um will it have unintended consequences um will it have unintended consequences um you know this is where the historian um you know this is where the historian um you know this is where the historian can come in and say yes can come in and say yes can come in and say yes there's always unintended consequences there's always unintended consequences there's always unintended consequences and we don't know you know sort of what and we don't know you know sort of what and we don't know you know sort of what um what it would mean um what it would mean um what it would mean for political figures to be excluded for political figures to be excluded for political figures to be excluded from from from from from from various media platforms various media platforms various media platforms um under sort of under under these um under sort of under under these um under sort of under under these notions right of um that they had notions right of um that they had notions right of um that they had violated terms of service etc so you violated terms of service etc so you violated terms of service etc so you know know know so so so i guess we'll see as i guess well to me i guess we'll see as i guess well to me i guess we'll see as i guess well to me so i'm generally against censorship so i'm generally against censorship so i'm generally against censorship but to take twitter's perspective it's

but to take twitter's perspective it's but to take twitter's perspective it's unclear to me unclear to me unclear to me in terms of unintended consequences in terms of unintended consequences in terms of unintended consequences whether censoring a human being whether censoring a human being whether censoring a human being from being part of your platform from being part of your platform from being part of your platform is going to is going to is going to decrease or increase the amount of hate decrease or increase the amount of hate decrease or increase the amount of hate in the world in the world in the world so so so there's a strong case to be made that there's a strong case to be made that there's a strong case to be made that banning somebody like donald trump banning somebody like donald trump banning somebody like donald trump increases the amount of resentment increases the amount of resentment increases the amount of resentment um among people um among people um among people and that's a very large number of people and that's a very large number of people and that's a very large number of people that support him or even love him or that support him or even love him or that support him or even love him or even see him as a great president one of even see him as a great president one of even see him as a great president one of the greatest this country has had the greatest this country has had the greatest this country has had and so if you completely suppress this and so if you completely suppress this and so if you completely suppress this voice voice voice you're going to intensify the you're going to intensify the you're going to intensify the support that he has support that he has support that he has from just the regular support for from just the regular support for from just the regular support for another human being who ran for another human being who ran for another human being who ran for president president president to to to somebody that becomes an almost heroic somebody that becomes an almost heroic somebody that becomes an almost heroic figure for that figure for that figure for that set of people set of people set of people now the flip side is now the flip side is now the flip side is removing removing removing a person from a platform like donald a person from a platform like donald a person from a platform like donald trump trump trump might lessen the megaphone of that might lessen the megaphone of that might lessen the megaphone of that particular person might actually particular person might actually particular person might actually level level level the the the the democratic notion that everybody has the democratic notion that everybody has the democratic notion that everybody has a voice so basically removing the loud a voice so basically removing the loud a voice so basically removing the loud extremes extremes extremes is helpful for giving is helpful for giving is helpful for giving the center the center the center the calm the calm the calm the thoughtful voices more power and so the thoughtful voices more power and so the thoughtful voices more power and so in that sense that teaches a lesson that in that sense that teaches a lesson that in that sense that teaches a lesson that don't be crazy in any one direction don't be crazy in any one direction don't be crazy in any one direction don't go

don't go don't go full don't go lenin don't go full don't go lenin don't go full don't go lenin don't go uh hitler don't don't uh hitler don't don't uh hitler don't don't like you have to stay in the middle like you have to stay in the middle like you have to stay in the middle there's divisions in the middle there's there's divisions in the middle there's there's divisions in the middle there's discussions in the middle but stay in discussions in the middle but stay in discussions in the middle but stay in the middle the middle the middle that's sort of the steel man the case that's sort of the steel man the case that's sort of the steel man the case for uh for censoring for uh for censoring for uh for censoring but i but i but i boy is censorship a slippery slope boy is censorship a slippery slope boy is censorship a slippery slope and also boys twitter becoming and also boys twitter becoming and also boys twitter becoming a thing that's more than just a company a thing that's more than just a company a thing that's more than just a company it seems like it's a medium of it seems like it's a medium of it seems like it's a medium of communication that we use communication that we use communication that we use for um for um for um for information for for information for for information for for knowledge for wisdom even for knowledge for wisdom even for knowledge for wisdom even you know during the period of kovid you know during the period of kovid you know during the period of kovid we used it to gain an understanding of we used it to gain an understanding of we used it to gain an understanding of what the hell is going on what should we what the hell is going on what should we what the hell is going on what should we do what's the state of the art science do what's the state of the art science do what's the state of the art science science fundamentally transformed during science fundamentally transformed during science fundamentally transformed during the time of code because you have no the time of code because you have no the time of code because you have no time for the full review cycle that time for the full review cycle that time for the full review cycle that science usually goes through and some of science usually goes through and some of science usually goes through and some of the best sources of information for me the best sources of information for me the best sources of information for me from the conspiracy theory to the the from the conspiracy theory to the the from the conspiracy theory to the the best doctors with twitter best doctors with twitter best doctors with twitter uh the data the stats all that kind of uh the data the stats all that kind of uh the data the stats all that kind of stuff and stuff and stuff and that feels like like more than a com that feels like like more than a com that feels like like more than a com more than a company and then twitter and more than a company and then twitter and more than a company and then twitter and youtube and different places took a youtube and different places took a youtube and different places took a really strong stance on kovid really strong stance on kovid really strong stance on kovid which which which is the lazy stance in my opinion which is the lazy stance in my opinion which is the lazy stance in my opinion which is we're going to listen to whatever is we're going to listen to whatever is we're going to listen to whatever cdc or the institutions have said cdc or the institutions have said cdc or the institutions have said but the reality is but the reality is but the reality is you're an institution of your own now you're an institution of your own now you're an institution of your own now you're kind of the press you're kind of the press you're kind of the press you're like there's a there's a

you're like there's a there's a you're like there's a there's a um um um yes it's a really difficult position yes it's a really difficult position yes it's a really difficult position it's a really really difficult position it's a really really difficult position it's a really really difficult position to take uh but i i wish they have to take uh but i i wish they have to take uh but i i wish they have stepped up and take on the full stepped up and take on the full stepped up and take on the full responsibility and the pain responsibility and the pain responsibility and the pain of fighting for the freedom of speech yes they need yes they need they need to do that they need to do that they need to do that but but but you know i'm struck by some of the you know i'm struck by some of the you know i'm struck by some of the things that you said ways in which um things that you said ways in which um things that you said ways in which um you know uh twitter you know uh twitter you know uh twitter has the power to shape the conversation has the power to shape the conversation has the power to shape the conversation um um um and i don't think in a democratic and i don't think in a democratic and i don't think in a democratic society uh society uh society uh democratic polities should cede that democratic polities should cede that democratic polities should cede that power power power um to to for-profit uh companies do you um to to for-profit uh companies do you um to to for-profit uh companies do you agree that it's possible that agree that it's possible that agree that it's possible that twitter twitter twitter has that power currently do you sense has that power currently do you sense has that power currently do you sense that it has the power is that my sense that it has the power is that my sense that it has the power is that my sense is twitter as the power star wars is twitter as the power star wars is twitter as the power star wars like tweets have the power to start wars like tweets have the power to start wars like tweets have the power to start wars to to to to to to yeah to to change the direction of yeah to to change the direction of yeah to to change the direction of elections elections elections maybe in the sense in the ways in which maybe in the sense in the ways in which maybe in the sense in the ways in which uh you know a wave has the power to wash uh you know a wave has the power to wash uh you know a wave has the power to wash away sand right um you know it's it's away sand right um you know it's it's away sand right um you know it's it's the meat it's still the medium right the meat it's still the medium right the meat it's still the medium right it's not um it's not um it's not um it's not in itself an actor it's how it's not in itself an actor it's how it's not in itself an actor it's how actors use the platform actors use the platform actors use the platform which requires us to scrutinize the which requires us to scrutinize the which requires us to scrutinize the structure of the platform and access to structure of the platform and access to structure of the platform and access to it unfortunately it's not maybe as it unfortunately it's not maybe as it unfortunately it's not maybe as similar to the wave it's not just a similar to the wave it's not just a similar to the wave it's not just a medium medium medium it's a it's a it's a it's a medium plus it's a medium plus it's a medium plus it's a medium that enables virality

it's a medium that enables virality it's a medium that enables virality that benefits from virality of that benefits from virality of that benefits from virality of engagement and that means engagement and that means engagement and that means singular voices singular voices singular voices uh can uh can uh can can have a disproportionate impact can have a disproportionate impact can have a disproportionate impact like uh not even voices singular ideas like uh not even voices singular ideas like uh not even voices singular ideas dramatic ideas can have a dramatic ideas can have a dramatic ideas can have a disproportionate impact and so disproportionate impact and so disproportionate impact and so that actually threatens that actually threatens that actually threatens it's almost like i don't know what the it's almost like i don't know what the it's almost like i don't know what the equivalent is in nature but it's a it's equivalent is in nature but it's a it's equivalent is in nature but it's a it's a wave that can grow exponentially a wave that can grow exponentially a wave that can grow exponentially because of the intensity of the because of the intensity of the because of the intensity of the the initial the initial the initial intensity of the wave intensity of the wave intensity of the wave i don't know how to describe this as a i don't know how to describe this as a i don't know how to describe this as a dynamical system but it feels like it feels like there is a responsibility it feels like there is a responsibility there not to excel not to accelerate there not to excel not to accelerate there not to excel not to accelerate voices just because they get a lot of voices just because they get a lot of voices just because they get a lot of engagement you have to have a engagement you have to have a engagement you have to have a proportional representation of that proportional representation of that proportional representation of that voice voice voice um but you're saying that um but you're saying that um but you're saying that a strong democracy should be robust to a strong democracy should be robust to a strong democracy should be robust to that that that uh a strong democracy uh can and should uh a strong democracy uh can and should uh a strong democracy uh can and should and and will be i mean i think the other and and will be i mean i think the other and and will be i mean i think the other thing a historian will tell you about thing a historian will tell you about thing a historian will tell you about twitter is that this too shall pass twitter is that this too shall pass twitter is that this too shall pass right right right yeah yeah yeah but um but i do think you know the but um but i do think you know the but um but i do think you know the structures of of the of the platform of structures of of the of the platform of structures of of the of the platform of the algorithm of of this and other major the algorithm of of this and other major the algorithm of of this and other major players players players are are are are are are eligible for scrutiny by by democratic eligible for scrutiny by by democratic eligible for scrutiny by by democratic institutions institutions institutions so so so in preparing to teach the course the in preparing to teach the course the in preparing to teach the course the history of american presidential history of american presidential history of american presidential elections leading up to the 2024 elections leading up to the 2024 elections leading up to the 2024 elections

elections elections so one of the lessons of history is this so one of the lessons of history is this so one of the lessons of history is this too shall pass so don't make everything too shall pass so don't make everything too shall pass so don't make everything about about about this is this is going to either save or this is this is going to either save or this is this is going to either save or destroy our nation that seems to be like destroy our nation that seems to be like destroy our nation that seems to be like the message of every single election um the message of every single election um the message of every single election um as i'm doing trump hands um as i'm doing trump hands um as i'm doing trump hands um do you think donald trump what do you do you think donald trump what do you do you think donald trump what do you think about the 2024 election do you think about the 2024 election do you think about the 2024 election do you think donald trump runs think donald trump runs think donald trump runs do you think the the tension do you think the the tension do you think the the tension [Music] [Music] [Music] will grow will grow will grow um or was that a singular moment um or was that a singular moment um or was that a singular moment um um um do you think you'll be like aoc versus do you think you'll be like aoc versus do you think you'll be like aoc versus trump or whoever whatever the most maxim trump or whoever whatever the most maxim trump or whoever whatever the most maxim drama maximizing thing or will things drama maximizing thing or will things drama maximizing thing or will things stabilize uh stabilize uh stabilize uh i think i can i can you know historians i think i can i can you know historians i think i can i can you know historians don't like to predict the future but i don't like to predict the future but i don't like to predict the future but i can predict this one that it will not be can predict this one that it will not be can predict this one that it will not be a calm and and stabilized election a calm and and stabilized election a calm and and stabilized election um i think as of you know the time that um i think as of you know the time that um i think as of you know the time that we're talking in 2022 we don't there are we're talking in 2022 we don't there are we're talking in 2022 we don't there are too many um you know sort of open too many um you know sort of open too many um you know sort of open questions particularly about whether joe questions particularly about whether joe questions particularly about whether joe biden will run for re-election he says biden will run for re-election he says biden will run for re-election he says he will but he will but he will but you know but uh the jury i think is out you know but uh the jury i think is out you know but uh the jury i think is out on that you know i i can't predict whether you know i i can't predict whether donald trump will run for for election donald trump will run for for election donald trump will run for for election uh or not i think um uh or not i think um uh or not i think um uh uh uh you know we do know that that that you know we do know that that that you know we do know that that that uh president trump doesn't like to uh president trump doesn't like to uh president trump doesn't like to to start things he can't win to start things he can't win to start things he can't win and if the polling data suggests that and if the polling data suggests that and if the polling data suggests that he's not a credible candidate he might he's not a credible candidate he might he's not a credible candidate he might be reluctant to to enter the race and

be reluctant to to enter the race and be reluctant to to enter the race and might might might might find more appealing a kind of the might find more appealing a kind of the might find more appealing a kind of the kind of sideline uh kind of king maker kind of sideline uh kind of king maker kind of sideline uh kind of king maker role that he's been crafting since he he role that he's been crafting since he he role that he's been crafting since he he left the white house left the white house left the white house um um um you know i think there are plenty of you know i think there are plenty of you know i think there are plenty of people who are people who are people who are uh uh uh you know dreaming that there's some sort you know dreaming that there's some sort you know dreaming that there's some sort of centrist candidate um you know uh you of centrist candidate um you know uh you of centrist candidate um you know uh you know know know whether it's a conservative democrat or whether it's a conservative democrat or whether it's a conservative democrat or a liberal republican who will you know a liberal republican who will you know a liberal republican who will you know save us from from uh from all of this save us from from uh from all of this save us from from uh from all of this um either within the party or in a third um either within the party or in a third um either within the party or in a third party run i don't think that's likely party run i don't think that's likely party run i don't think that's likely why are we getting them why don't you why are we getting them why don't you why are we getting them why don't you think it's likely what's the explanation think it's likely what's the explanation think it's likely what's the explanation this seems to be a general hunger for a this seems to be a general hunger for a this seems to be a general hunger for a person like this you would but the person like this you would but the person like this you would but the system sorts it out right you know that system sorts it out right you know that system sorts it out right you know that the the the primary systems and the the the the primary systems and the the the the primary systems and the party uh you know party candidate party uh you know party candidate party uh you know party candidate selection systems you know will favor selection systems you know will favor selection systems you know will favor sort of more you know more partisan sort of more you know more partisan sort of more you know more partisan views right more conservative views right more conservative views right more conservative republicans more liberal democrats republicans more liberal democrats republicans more liberal democrats um as the kind of central candidates um as the kind of central candidates um as the kind of central candidates it seems like the system prefers it seems like the system prefers it seems like the system prefers mediocre mediocre mediocre executive mediocre leaders executive mediocre leaders executive mediocre leaders mediocre partisan leaders mediocre partisan leaders mediocre partisan leaders if i to take a cynical look but maybe if i to take a cynical look but maybe if i to take a cynical look but maybe i'm romanticizing the leaders of the i'm romanticizing the leaders of the i'm romanticizing the leaders of the past past past and maybe i'm just remembering the great and maybe i'm just remembering the great and maybe i'm just remembering the great leaders of the past leaders of the past leaders of the past and uh yeah i can assure you there's and uh yeah i can assure you there's and uh yeah i can assure you there's plenty of mediocre partisans in the 19th plenty of mediocre partisans in the 19th plenty of mediocre partisans in the 19th century okay century okay century okay and the 20th and the 20th and the 20th um um um well let me ask you about platforming well let me ask you about platforming well let me ask you about platforming um um um do you think do you think do you think donald it's the twitter question but i i

donald it's the twitter question but i i donald it's the twitter question but i i was torn about whether to talk to donald was torn about whether to talk to donald was torn about whether to talk to donald trump on this podcast trump on this podcast trump on this podcast as a historian what would you advise i think uh i mean you know this is uh i think uh i mean you know this is uh this is a difficult question right um this is a difficult question right um this is a difficult question right um for for historians who want um you know for for historians who want um you know for for historians who want um you know sort of want sort of want sort of want uh to make sure that they know sort of uh to make sure that they know sort of uh to make sure that they know sort of what americans are thinking and talking what americans are thinking and talking what americans are thinking and talking about um you know uh four centuries about um you know uh four centuries about um you know uh four centuries later so one of the the things that you later so one of the the things that you later so one of the the things that you know at least my understanding is that know at least my understanding is that know at least my understanding is that when uh president trump was banned from when uh president trump was banned from when uh president trump was banned from twitter his account was also deleted twitter his account was also deleted twitter his account was also deleted um and that um and that um and that is one of the most valuable sources that is one of the most valuable sources that is one of the most valuable sources that historians will use um to understand historians will use um to understand historians will use um to understand that the era and parts of it were sort that the era and parts of it were sort that the era and parts of it were sort of you know uh archived and of you know uh archived and of you know uh archived and reconstructed but uh you know but in reconstructed but uh you know but in reconstructed but uh you know but in that sense i think that that is also a that sense i think that that is also a that sense i think that that is also a real real real loss to the historical record loss to the historical record loss to the historical record and and and i mean i think that uh your podcast i mean i think that uh your podcast i mean i think that uh your podcast shows you'll you'll talk to you'll talk shows you'll you'll talk to you'll talk shows you'll you'll talk to you'll talk to anyone and so to anyone and so to anyone and so i'm here right right right um so you i'm here right right right um so you i'm here right right right um so you know i'm not in the business of saying know i'm not in the business of saying know i'm not in the business of saying you know don't don't don't talk don't you know don't don't don't talk don't you know don't don't don't talk don't talk that's one of the difficult things talk that's one of the difficult things talk that's one of the difficult things when i think about hitler i think um when i think about hitler i think um when i think about hitler i think um hitler stalin i don't know if world war hitler stalin i don't know if world war hitler stalin i don't know if world war one quite has the same intensity one quite has the same intensity one quite has the same intensity of controversial leaders controversial leaders but one of the sad things from a but one of the sad things from a but one of the sad things from a historian perspective is how few historian perspective is how few historian perspective is how few interviews hitler has given or stalin interviews hitler has given or stalin interviews hitler has given or stalin has given has given has given and

and and that's such a difficult thing because that's such a difficult thing because that's such a difficult thing because it's obvious that talking to donald it's obvious that talking to donald it's obvious that talking to donald trump trump trump that talking to xi jinping that talking to xi jinping that talking to xi jinping talking to putin talking to putin talking to putin is really valuable from a historical is really valuable from a historical is really valuable from a historical perspective to understand perspective to understand perspective to understand but then but then but then you think about the momentary impact of you think about the momentary impact of you think about the momentary impact of such a conversation and you think such a conversation and you think such a conversation and you think well depending on how the conversation well depending on how the conversation well depending on how the conversation goes you can steer goes you can steer goes you can steer or or or flame flame flame what does it feed the flame what does it feed the flame what does it feed the flame of war or conflict or um of war or conflict or um of war or conflict or um abuses of power and things like this abuses of power and things like this abuses of power and things like this and that's i think the tension between and that's i think the tension between and that's i think the tension between the journalists and the historian because when journalists interview because when journalists interview dictators for example dictators for example dictators for example one of the things that strikes me one of the things that strikes me one of the things that strikes me is they're often very critical of the dictator very critical of the dictator they're they're like they're they're like they're they're like they're basically attacking them in they're basically attacking them in they're basically attacking them in front of their face front of their face front of their face as opposed to trying to understand as opposed to trying to understand as opposed to trying to understand because what i perceive they're doing is because what i perceive they're doing is because what i perceive they're doing is they're signaling to they're signaling to they're signaling to uh the other journalists that they're on uh the other journalists that they're on uh the other journalists that they're on the right side of history kind of thing the right side of history kind of thing the right side of history kind of thing but that's not very productive and it's but that's not very productive and it's but that's not very productive and it's also why also why also why the dictators and leaders often don't do the dictators and leaders often don't do the dictators and leaders often don't do those interviews those interviews those interviews it's not productive to understanding who it's not productive to understanding who it's not productive to understanding who the human being is to understand you the human being is to understand you the human being is to understand you have to empathize have to empathize have to empathize um because um because um because few people i think few leaders do few people i think few leaders do few people i think few leaders do something something something from a place of malevolence i think they from a place of malevolence i think they from a place of malevolence i think they really do think they're doing good

really do think they're doing good really do think they're doing good and not even for themselves not even for and not even for themselves not even for and not even for themselves not even for selfish reasons i think they're doing selfish reasons i think they're doing selfish reasons i think they're doing great for the great for the great for the they're doing the right thing they're doing the right thing they're doing the right thing for their country for their country for their country or for whoever the group they're leading or for whoever the group they're leading or for whoever the group they're leading and to understand that you have to and to understand that you have to and to understand that you have to and and by the way a large percent of and and by the way a large percent of and and by the way a large percent of the country often supports them the country often supports them the country often supports them i bet if you pull i bet if you pull i bet if you pull legitimately poor people in north korea legitimately poor people in north korea legitimately poor people in north korea they will believe that their leader is they will believe that their leader is they will believe that their leader is doing the right thing for their country doing the right thing for their country doing the right thing for their country and so to understand that and so to understand that and so to understand that you have to empathize so that's the you have to empathize so that's the you have to empathize so that's the tension of the journalist i think and tension of the journalist i think and tension of the journalist i think and the historian because obviously the the historian because obviously the the historian because obviously the historian doesn't doesn't care they historian doesn't doesn't care they historian doesn't doesn't care they really want to but they care obviously really want to but they care obviously really want to but they care obviously deeply but they they know that history deeply but they they know that history deeply but they they know that history requires deep understanding of the human requires deep understanding of the human requires deep understanding of the human being in the full context being in the full context being in the full context yeah it's a tough decision to make yeah yeah it's a tough decision to make yeah yeah it's a tough decision to make yeah well i think it's uh both for well i think it's uh both for well i think it's uh both for journalists and historians um the journalists and historians um the journalists and historians um the challenge is not to be too close to your challenge is not to be too close to your challenge is not to be too close to your subject right um and you know not to be subject right um and you know not to be subject right um and you know not to be um overly influenced and used by them um overly influenced and used by them um overly influenced and used by them right you know when you're talking to a right you know when you're talking to a right you know when you're talking to a living subject which historians do you living subject which historians do you living subject which historians do you know um too know um too know um too um you know it's it's a matter of making um you know it's it's a matter of making um you know it's it's a matter of making sure that you triangulate their story sure that you triangulate their story sure that you triangulate their story with with the the rest of the record with with the the rest of the record with with the the rest of the record right um right um right um and that may paint a different picture and that may paint a different picture and that may paint a different picture of of the person than um and will of of the person than um and will of of the person than um and will prevent you as a journalist or a prevent you as a journalist or a prevent you as a journalist or a historian from kind of you know just historian from kind of you know just historian from kind of you know just telling someone else's story

telling someone else's story telling someone else's story and so and historians also have the and so and historians also have the and so and historians also have the benefit of going back you know 30 40 benefit of going back you know 30 40 benefit of going back you know 30 40 years and finding all the other stories years and finding all the other stories years and finding all the other stories and figuring out you know uh and figuring out you know uh and figuring out you know uh playing two truths and a lie you know playing two truths and a lie you know playing two truths and a lie you know which parts are you know which parts are which parts are you know which parts are which parts are you know which parts are accurate which are which are not and accurate which are which are not and accurate which are which are not and journalists do that work in a day-to-day journalists do that work in a day-to-day journalists do that work in a day-to-day basis but historians um you know we get basis but historians um you know we get basis but historians um you know we get a little more time to think about what a little more time to think about what a little more time to think about what we're doing we're doing we're doing well i i personally also think it's well i i personally also think it's well i i personally also think it's deeply disrespectful to the populace deeply disrespectful to the populace deeply disrespectful to the populace to people to people to people to to to um censor and ignore a person that's um censor and ignore a person that's um censor and ignore a person that's supported by a very large number of supported by a very large number of supported by a very large number of people people people like that like that like that you oh you oh you oh i personally feel i personally feel i personally feel like like like you owe the citizens of this country you owe the citizens of this country you owe the citizens of this country a deep a deep a deep uh empathy and understanding of the uh empathy and understanding of the uh empathy and understanding of the leaders they support leaders they support leaders they support even if you disagree with what they say even if you disagree with what they say even if you disagree with what they say i mean that's the the i mean that's the the i mean that's the the to me i'm much more worried about the to me i'm much more worried about the to me i'm much more worried about the resentment of the censorship um resentment of the censorship um resentment of the censorship um that it's that it's that it's to having a good conversation with to having a good conversation with to having a good conversation with donald trump is ultimately valuable donald trump is ultimately valuable donald trump is ultimately valuable because he i think because he i think because he i think especially in this case i agree with you especially in this case i agree with you especially in this case i agree with you that donald trump is not a singular that donald trump is not a singular that donald trump is not a singular person person person he is a he represents a set of feelings he is a he represents a set of feelings he is a he represents a set of feelings that a large number of people have and that a large number of people have and that a large number of people have and whatever those feelings are whatever those feelings are whatever those feelings are you can try to figure out by talking to you can try to figure out by talking to you can try to figure out by talking to people but also talking to the the people but also talking to the the people but also talking to the the the man the man the man and then seeing the interplay there what and then seeing the interplay there what and then seeing the interplay there what does this really represent

does this really represent does this really represent in this period in history in this in this period in history in this in this period in history in this slice of the world um yeah ultimately slice of the world um yeah ultimately slice of the world um yeah ultimately understanding i think leads to understanding i think leads to understanding i think leads to compassion and love and unity which is compassion and love and unity which is compassion and love and unity which is how this whole thing progresses the how this whole thing progresses the how this whole thing progresses the tension between the different sides tension between the different sides tension between the different sides is useful to um is useful to um is useful to um have a good conversation but ultimately have a good conversation but ultimately have a good conversation but ultimately coming up with the right answer and coming up with the right answer and coming up with the right answer and progressing towards that answer is how progressing towards that answer is how progressing towards that answer is how you make progress you make progress you make progress do you think a pure democracy can work do you think a pure democracy can work do you think a pure democracy can work so we have this representative democracy so we have this representative democracy so we have this representative democracy with these contentious elections and so with these contentious elections and so with these contentious elections and so on on on when we start a civilization on mars when we start a civilization on mars when we start a civilization on mars which becomes more and more realistic which becomes more and more realistic which becomes more and more realistic technologically we can have a more technologically we can have a more technologically we can have a more direct access to be able to vote on direct access to be able to vote on direct access to be able to vote on issues and issues and issues and vote for ideas do you think it can work vote for ideas do you think it can work vote for ideas do you think it can work i don't think we have to go to mars uh i don't think we have to go to mars uh i don't think we have to go to mars uh to do it right um to do it right um to do it right um uh i think um the answer is not you know to flip a the answer is not you know to flip a switch and uh turn on something called switch and uh turn on something called switch and uh turn on something called pure democracy um uh when people are not pure democracy um uh when people are not pure democracy um uh when people are not ready for it when their uh incentive ready for it when their uh incentive ready for it when their uh incentive structures are not um sort of uh structures are not um sort of uh structures are not um sort of uh structured for it structured for it structured for it but you can um you know experiment with but you can um you know experiment with but you can um you know experiment with more democratic forms of governance one more democratic forms of governance one more democratic forms of governance one after another right whether it's after another right whether it's after another right whether it's uh you know sort of experimenting with uh you know sort of experimenting with uh you know sort of experimenting with um technology to find new ways of sort um technology to find new ways of sort um technology to find new ways of sort of of getting uh greater of of getting uh greater of of getting uh greater rates of participation in democracy rates of participation in democracy rates of participation in democracy um i think that we see some experiments

um i think that we see some experiments um i think that we see some experiments and sort of more complicated systems of and sort of more complicated systems of and sort of more complicated systems of voting um that in fact might actually be voting um that in fact might actually be voting um that in fact might actually be more reflective of people's choices than more reflective of people's choices than more reflective of people's choices than simply picking one candidate right sort simply picking one candidate right sort simply picking one candidate right sort of ranked choice voting or of ranked choice voting or of ranked choice voting or runoffs other kinds of things runoffs other kinds of things runoffs other kinds of things and you know i think that we can think and you know i think that we can think and you know i think that we can think more more more creatively about something like creatively about something like creatively about something like participatory budgeting right in which participatory budgeting right in which participatory budgeting right in which um you know um you know um you know we put all this money into the we put all this money into the we put all this money into the government um and then um you know we we government um and then um you know we we government um and then um you know we we um you know should as a as a people um you know should as a as a people um you know should as a as a people there are more democratic ways of sort there are more democratic ways of sort there are more democratic ways of sort of of how we spend it and i think the of of how we spend it and i think the of of how we spend it and i think the most urgent in some level is a more uh most urgent in some level is a more uh most urgent in some level is a more uh democratic form of foreign policymaking democratic form of foreign policymaking democratic form of foreign policymaking right the foreign policy making right the foreign policy making right the foreign policy making decision-making um about the military decision-making um about the military decision-making um about the military about foreign policy about foreign policy about foreign policy is is very ways insulated from from is is very ways insulated from from is is very ways insulated from from popular participation um in in modern popular participation um in in modern popular participation um in in modern american history american history american history and i think and i think and i think you know they're you know they're you know they're technology is not the the technology is not the the technology is not the the going to solve this you know it's a going to solve this you know it's a going to solve this you know it's a combination of technology and and human combination of technology and and human combination of technology and and human creativity but i think um creativity but i think um creativity but i think um you know i think we can start heading you know i think we can start heading you know i think we can start heading that direction that direction that direction whether we get there before we get to whether we get there before we get to whether we get there before we get to mars i don't i don't know mars i don't i don't know mars i don't i don't know what interesting lessons and thoughts if what interesting lessons and thoughts if what interesting lessons and thoughts if you look at the fundamentals you look at the fundamentals you look at the fundamentals of the history of american elections of the history of american elections of the history of american elections do you hope to reveal when you try to do you hope to reveal when you try to do you hope to reveal when you try to teach the class teach the class teach the class and and and how will those fundamentals be met how will those fundamentals be met how will those fundamentals be met by the by the students that received by the by the students that received by the by the students that received that wisdom

that wisdom that wisdom so so so what do you think about this dance what do you think about this dance what do you think about this dance especially such an interesting idea and especially such an interesting idea and especially such an interesting idea and now i hope you do go through with this now i hope you do go through with this now i hope you do go through with this kind of idea is look at the history kind of idea is look at the history kind of idea is look at the history while the next one is happening while the next one is happening while the next one is happening yes yes yes i think you know it's worth remembering right you know it's worth remembering right that the students that the students that the students who are who are who are typical american student who's in typical american student who's in typical american student who's in college right now college right now college right now right has lived their entire life right has lived their entire life right has lived their entire life after after after uh the election of 2000 and bush v gore uh the election of 2000 and bush v gore uh the election of 2000 and bush v gore right um and after 9 11 probably and right um and after 9 11 probably and right um and after 9 11 probably and yeah absolutely yes after all of after yeah absolutely yes after all of after yeah absolutely yes after all of after all of these things right and and all of these things right and and all of these things right and and um um um so on the one hand they take um so on the one hand they take um so on the one hand they take um partisanship and contentious elections partisanship and contentious elections partisanship and contentious elections for granted for granted for granted um um um they don't i think share um you know they don't i think share um you know they don't i think share um you know sort of some sort of some sort of some vision that things were you know things vision that things were you know things vision that things were you know things used to be different right they don't used to be different right they don't used to be different right they don't remember remember remember a world that had like lots of moderate a world that had like lots of moderate a world that had like lots of moderate democrats and liberal republicans and uh democrats and liberal republicans and uh democrats and liberal republicans and uh you know sort of running around in it you know sort of running around in it you know sort of running around in it um but um um but um um but um you know so in some ways it's a way of you know so in some ways it's a way of you know so in some ways it's a way of of looking back into the past to find of looking back into the past to find of looking back into the past to find other ways of of of organizing our other ways of of of organizing our other ways of of of organizing our politics politics politics uh it's also a way of of uh it's also a way of of uh it's also a way of of reassuring students that we have been reassuring students that we have been reassuring students that we have been through contentious and even um sort of through contentious and even um sort of through contentious and even um sort of violent elections before in our history violent elections before in our history violent elections before in our history and you know that people have and you know that people have and you know that people have defended the right to vote right people defended the right to vote right people defended the right to vote right people have risked their lives to vote

have risked their lives to vote have risked their lives to vote you know i think they will they will you know i think they will they will you know i think they will they will understand that that as well understand that that as well understand that that as well and maybe knowledge of history here can help knowledge of history here can help de-escalate the emotions you might feel de-escalate the emotions you might feel de-escalate the emotions you might feel about one candidate or another about one candidate or another about one candidate or another and and and uh from a place of calmness uh from a place of calmness uh from a place of calmness you can more easily arrive at wisdom you can more easily arrive at wisdom you can more easily arrive at wisdom uh that that's my hope um yeah uh that that's my hope um yeah uh that that's my hope um yeah uh just as a brief aside you uh just as a brief aside you uh just as a brief aside you breathe aside but nevertheless you wrote breathe aside but nevertheless you wrote breathe aside but nevertheless you wrote the book bound by war the book bound by war the book bound by war that describes a century of war in the that describes a century of war in the that describes a century of war in the pacific pacific pacific so looking at this so looking at this so looking at this slice of geography slice of geography slice of geography and power and power and power so most crucially through the so most crucially through the so most crucially through the partnership between the united states partnership between the united states partnership between the united states and the philippines and the philippines and the philippines can you tell us some aspects of the can you tell us some aspects of the can you tell us some aspects of the story story story that is often perhaps not considered that is often perhaps not considered that is often perhaps not considered when you start to look more at the when you start to look more at the when you start to look more at the geopolitics of europe and soviet union geopolitics of europe and soviet union geopolitics of europe and soviet union and the united states what how did the and the united states what how did the and the united states what how did the the war the war the war in in the pacific define the 20th in in the pacific define the 20th in in the pacific define the 20th century century century yeah i yeah i yeah i came to this book bound by war um from a came to this book bound by war um from a came to this book bound by war um from a sense that um that our stories were too sense that um that our stories were too sense that um that our stories were too lopsided toward toward europe right that lopsided toward toward europe right that lopsided toward toward europe right that american history when viewed from the american history when viewed from the american history when viewed from the pacific pacific pacific specifically in the 20th century specifically in the 20th century specifically in the 20th century helps us understand american power helps us understand american power helps us understand american power in some new ways right uh not only in some new ways right uh not only in some new ways right uh not only american uh projection of power into

american uh projection of power into american uh projection of power into asia right but also the ways in which asia right but also the ways in which asia right but also the ways in which american power affected uh people in american power affected uh people in american power affected uh people in asia right um either asia right um either asia right um either as you know in places like the as you know in places like the as you know in places like the philippines where the united states had philippines where the united states had philippines where the united states had a colony for almost 50 years or asian a colony for almost 50 years or asian a colony for almost 50 years or asian americans people who had migrated over americans people who had migrated over americans people who had migrated over their descendants in the united states their descendants in the united states their descendants in the united states and those linkages between the united and those linkages between the united and those linkages between the united states and asia states and asia states and asia particularly particularly particularly the u.s philippine connection i think the u.s philippine connection i think the u.s philippine connection i think were something that needed to be traced were something that needed to be traced were something that needed to be traced across the 20th century because it's a across the 20th century because it's a across the 20th century because it's a way way way kind of a new way of seeing american kind of a new way of seeing american kind of a new way of seeing american power you know from from a different power you know from from a different power you know from from a different angle angle angle you see it in in that way you see it in in that way you see it in in that way what are some aspects that define what are some aspects that define what are some aspects that define america from from america from from america from from when you take the perspective of the when you take the perspective of the when you take the perspective of the pacific pacific pacific what military conflict what military conflict what military conflict and and the asymmetry of power there and and the asymmetry of power there and and the asymmetry of power there right so i start in uh in 1898 um you right so i start in uh in 1898 um you right so i start in uh in 1898 um you know with the us invasion of the know with the us invasion of the know with the us invasion of the philippines um uh its conquest and philippines um uh its conquest and philippines um uh its conquest and annexation annexation annexation uh and i think in many ways this is a uh and i think in many ways this is a uh and i think in many ways this is a defining conflict of the 20th century defining conflict of the 20th century defining conflict of the 20th century that's often completely overlooked we're that's often completely overlooked we're that's often completely overlooked we're described described described i think incorrectly as merely a war with i think incorrectly as merely a war with i think incorrectly as merely a war with spain right that the war in the spain right that the war in the spain right that the war in the philippines um is our uh our first philippines um is our uh our first philippines um is our uh our first extended overseas conflict our first extended overseas conflict our first extended overseas conflict our first conflict um in what would come to be conflict um in what would come to be conflict um in what would come to be called the developing world or third called the developing world or third called the developing world or third world it's a form of counter insurgency world it's a form of counter insurgency world it's a form of counter insurgency um you know this is the us army sort of um you know this is the us army sort of um you know this is the us army sort of learning lessons that are then repeated learning lessons that are then repeated learning lessons that are then repeated again in the second world war in korea again in the second world war in korea again in the second world war in korea vietnam and and even after 9 11. as the

vietnam and and even after 9 11. as the vietnam and and even after 9 11. as the philippines our friends or enemies in philippines our friends or enemies in philippines our friends or enemies in this history this history this history well that's the interesting part right well that's the interesting part right well that's the interesting part right is that uh the book focuses in is that uh the book focuses in is that uh the book focuses in particular on filipinos uh who fight particular on filipinos uh who fight particular on filipinos uh who fight with the americans who fought you know with the americans who fought you know with the americans who fought you know sort of in the us army and navy sort of in the us army and navy sort of in the us army and navy over the course of the 20th century and over the course of the 20th century and over the course of the 20th century and they are in a fundamentally ironic they are in a fundamentally ironic they are in a fundamentally ironic position right they are they are from position right they are they are from position right they are they are from the philippines and they're fighting for the philippines and they're fighting for the philippines and they're fighting for the united states um which is the the united states um which is the the united states um which is the colonial power uh occupying their colonial power uh occupying their colonial power uh occupying their country country country um and i think that that irony persists um and i think that that irony persists um and i think that that irony persists right um so if you look at sort of right um so if you look at sort of right um so if you look at sort of polling data where they ask people all polling data where they ask people all polling data where they ask people all around the world you know you know do around the world you know you know do around the world you know you know do you think positively or negatively about you think positively or negatively about you think positively or negatively about the united states um that the highest the united states um that the highest the united states um that the highest responses are from the philippines right responses are from the philippines right responses are from the philippines right filipinos view the united states filipinos view the united states filipinos view the united states more favorably than people from any more favorably than people from any more favorably than people from any other country in the world including other country in the world including other country in the world including america america america right that they're more think more right that they're more think more right that they're more think more favorably of americans than americans do favorably of americans than americans do favorably of americans than americans do and so you know sort of unpacking that and so you know sort of unpacking that and so you know sort of unpacking that irony is is part of what i'm trying to irony is is part of what i'm trying to irony is is part of what i'm trying to get at in the book what was the people get at in the book what was the people get at in the book what was the people power revolution and what lessons can we power revolution and what lessons can we power revolution and what lessons can we learn from it you kind of assign learn from it you kind of assign learn from it you kind of assign an important an important an important uh a large value to it in terms of what uh a large value to it in terms of what uh a large value to it in terms of what we can learn we can learn we can learn for the uh the american project for the uh the american project for the uh the american project yeah so in 1986 um the the president of yeah so in 1986 um the the president of yeah so in 1986 um the the president of the philippines ferdinand marcos is the philippines ferdinand marcos is the philippines ferdinand marcos is overthrown by a popular revolution known overthrown by a popular revolution known overthrown by a popular revolution known as people power um as people power um as people power um in the wake of a contested and probably in the wake of a contested and probably in the wake of a contested and probably almost certainly rigged election almost certainly rigged election almost certainly rigged election um that that sort of uh you know kind of

um that that sort of uh you know kind of um that that sort of uh you know kind of confirms his his his rule confirms his his his rule confirms his his his rule um when that is over overturned through um when that is over overturned through um when that is over overturned through sort of mass movements in the sort of mass movements in the sort of mass movements in the philippines it's also philippines it's also philippines it's also sort of confirmed in many ways by the sort of confirmed in many ways by the sort of confirmed in many ways by the the reluctance of the united states to the reluctance of the united states to the reluctance of the united states to intervene to prop up a cold war ally intervene to prop up a cold war ally intervene to prop up a cold war ally ferdinand marcos had supported american ferdinand marcos had supported american ferdinand marcos had supported american policy throughout his administration policy throughout his administration policy throughout his administration um the reagan administration ronald um the reagan administration ronald um the reagan administration ronald reagan's president at the time basically reagan's president at the time basically reagan's president at the time basically chooses not to support him that's a chooses not to support him that's a chooses not to support him that's a personally wrenching decision for for personally wrenching decision for for personally wrenching decision for for reagan himself um but it it he's being reagan himself um but it it he's being reagan himself um but it it he's being shaped in many ways by the emerging shaped in many ways by the emerging shaped in many ways by the emerging voices of neoconservative political voices of neoconservative political voices of neoconservative political foreign policy voices in particular uh foreign policy voices in particular uh foreign policy voices in particular uh paul wolfowitz and the state department paul wolfowitz and the state department paul wolfowitz and the state department and others who see and others who see and others who see sort of movements for democracy and sort of movements for democracy and sort of movements for democracy and democratization that then kind of take democratization that then kind of take democratization that then kind of take fire in the late 20th century in latin fire in the late 20th century in latin fire in the late 20th century in latin america um in south korea in eastern america um in south korea in eastern america um in south korea in eastern europe um and you know all around the europe um and you know all around the europe um and you know all around the world until it hits the wall in world until it hits the wall in world until it hits the wall in tiananmen square in june 1989.

well what's that wall well what's that wall yeah what's what's the what's the what yeah what's what's the what's the what yeah what's what's the what's the what do you mean by it hits the wall so there do you mean by it hits the wall so there do you mean by it hits the wall so there are you know there are global movements are you know there are global movements are you know there are global movements for pot for democratization uh for for for pot for democratization uh for for for pot for democratization uh for for uh opening up you know throughout the uh opening up you know throughout the uh opening up you know throughout the world um starting in the 1980s world um starting in the 1980s world um starting in the 1980s and you know obviously they continue um and you know obviously they continue um and you know obviously they continue um in eastern europe with the fall of the in eastern europe with the fall of the in eastern europe with the fall of the berlin wall in 1989. um you know i say berlin wall in 1989. um you know i say berlin wall in 1989. um you know i say it hits the wall in in in china um in it hits the wall in in in china um in it hits the wall in in in china um in with the protests in tiananmen square with the protests in tiananmen square with the protests in tiananmen square and that are that are blocked and that and that are that are blocked and that and that are that are blocked and that are crushed and i think represent are crushed and i think represent are crushed and i think represent uh a real sort of turning point in the uh a real sort of turning point in the uh a real sort of turning point in the history of of democratic institutions history of of democratic institutions history of of democratic institutions on a global scale in the late 20th on a global scale in the late 20th on a global scale in the late 20th century century century so there's some places where the fight so there's some places where the fight so there's some places where the fight for freedom for freedom for freedom will work in some places not will work in some places not will work in some places not and that's the kind of and that's the kind of and that's the kind of lesson from the 20th lesson from the 20th lesson from the 20th to take forward to the 21st century to take forward to the 21st century to take forward to the 21st century uh no i think the lesson is is maybe one uh no i think the lesson is is maybe one uh no i think the lesson is is maybe one that that you know we talked about that that you know we talked about that that you know we talked about earlier that there's this dynamic dance earlier that there's this dynamic dance earlier that there's this dynamic dance between um between leaders whether uh between um between leaders whether uh between um between leaders whether uh totalitarian leaders or leaders of totalitarian leaders or leaders of totalitarian leaders or leaders of democratic movements and the people that democratic movements and the people that democratic movements and the people that they're leading they're leading they're leading and some you know sometimes it works and and some you know sometimes it works and and some you know sometimes it works and sometimes sometimes it doesn't let me sometimes sometimes it doesn't let me sometimes sometimes it doesn't let me ask a big ridiculous question because we ask a big ridiculous question because we ask a big ridiculous question because we talked about uh sort of presidential talked about uh sort of presidential talked about uh sort of presidential elections elections elections um now this is objectively definitively um now this is objectively definitively um now this is objectively definitively you have to answer one person who's the you have to answer one person who's the you have to answer one person who's the greatest president in american history greatest president in american history greatest president in american history oh that's easy yeah abraham lincoln

is that easy not george washington um is that easy not george washington um you know washington had his uh had the you know washington had his uh had the you know washington had his uh had the statesman qualities he understood his statesman qualities he understood his statesman qualities he understood his power as as uh as the first president power as as uh as the first president power as as uh as the first president also relinquished power he was willing also relinquished power he was willing also relinquished power he was willing to relinquish power um he you know uh to relinquish power um he you know uh to relinquish power um he you know uh but but but but lincoln has the combination but lincoln has the combination but lincoln has the combination of personal leadership of personal leadership of personal leadership um a fundamental moral character um a fundamental moral character um a fundamental moral character and um and just the ability to kind of and um and just the ability to kind of and um and just the ability to kind of uh to fight the the fight of politics to uh to fight the the fight of politics to uh to fight the the fight of politics to play the game of it and to get where play the game of it and to get where play the game of it and to get where he's going to play the short game and he's going to play the short game and he's going to play the short game and the long game the long game the long game um to kind of you know make to um to kind of you know make to um to kind of you know make to uh you know to work with his enemies to uh you know to work with his enemies to uh you know to work with his enemies to to block them when he had to to block them when he had to to block them when he had to um and you know i mean he um and you know i mean he um and you know i mean he gets the united states through the civil gets the united states through the civil gets the united states through the civil war so you gotta give him some credit war so you gotta give him some credit war so you gotta give him some credit for that and he's pretty good at making for that and he's pretty good at making for that and he's pretty good at making speeches speeches speeches uh it you know obviously it helps that uh it you know obviously it helps that uh it you know obviously it helps that he's uh he's uh he's uh a remarkable speaker um and able to a remarkable speaker um and able to a remarkable speaker um and able to convey those kinds of visions um but um convey those kinds of visions um but um convey those kinds of visions um but um you know buddy but he is first and you know buddy but he is first and you know buddy but he is first and foremost a politician um and probably foremost a politician um and probably foremost a politician um and probably the best one we have the best one we have the best one we have both getting elected and ruling both getting elected and ruling both getting elected and ruling in some ways better better at the doing in some ways better better at the doing in some ways better better at the doing than at the getting elected right um you than at the getting elected right um you than at the getting elected right um you know that he uh know that he uh know that he uh you know the election of 1860 is a you know the election of 1860 is a you know the election of 1860 is a it's just a hot mess um you know that it's just a hot mess um you know that it's just a hot mess um you know that that could have worked out um many that could have worked out um many that could have worked out um many different ways different ways different ways and even the election of 1864 and even the election of 1864 and even the election of 1864 you know when we have a presidential you know when we have a presidential you know when we have a presidential election in the middle of a civil war election in the middle of a civil war election in the middle of a civil war um it was not a foregone conclusion that

um it was not a foregone conclusion that um it was not a foregone conclusion that lincoln would be re-elected um so you lincoln would be re-elected um so you lincoln would be re-elected um so you know both times he sort of um know both times he sort of um know both times he sort of um you know he's not a a master campaigner you know he's not a a master campaigner you know he's not a a master campaigner by by any means but he he was a master by by any means but he he was a master by by any means but he he was a master politician as a as a governor politician as a as a governor politician as a as a governor do we have leaders like that today do we have leaders like that today do we have leaders like that today is is that so one perspective is like is is that so one perspective is like is is that so one perspective is like leaders aren't leaders aren't leaders aren't ain't what they used to be ain't what they used to be ain't what they used to be and another perspective is well we and another perspective is well we and another perspective is well we always romanticize stuff that happens in always romanticize stuff that happens in always romanticize stuff that happens in the past the past the past we forget the flaws and remember the we forget the flaws and remember the we forget the flaws and remember the great moments great moments great moments yeah uh both of those things are true yeah uh both of those things are true yeah uh both of those things are true right um on the one hand um right um on the one hand um right um on the one hand um you know we we don't uh we are not you know we we don't uh we are not you know we we don't uh we are not surrounded by people of of lincoln's surrounded by people of of lincoln's surrounded by people of of lincoln's caliber caliber caliber right now right now right now that feels like the case um and i think that feels like the case um and i think that feels like the case um and i think that i think we can say that with some that i think we can say that with some that i think we can say that with some certainty certainty certainty but um but um but um you know i i always like to point to you know i i always like to point to you know i i always like to point to president harry truman president harry truman president harry truman who who who left office with you know some truly left office with you know some truly left office with you know some truly abysmal uh abysmal uh abysmal uh presidential ratings um was dismissed as presidential ratings um was dismissed as presidential ratings um was dismissed as a throughout his presidency as a you a throughout his presidency as a you a throughout his presidency as a you know as a know as a know as a as unqualified as not knowing what he as unqualified as not knowing what he as unqualified as not knowing what he was doing etc and then you know turns was doing etc and then you know turns was doing etc and then you know turns out um uh with hindsight we know that he out um uh with hindsight we know that he out um uh with hindsight we know that he was better at the job than anyone was better at the job than anyone was better at the job than anyone understood better at getting elected understood better at getting elected understood better at getting elected right you remember that sign dewey right you remember that sign dewey right you remember that sign dewey defeats truman right he showed them defeats truman right he showed them defeats truman right he showed them right and better better at holding power right and better better at holding power right and better better at holding power and better at sort of and better at sort of and better at sort of you know kind of building the kind of you know kind of building the kind of you know kind of building the kind of institutions that long after he was gone

institutions that long after he was gone institutions that long after he was gone um demonstrated that he he um demonstrated that he he um demonstrated that he he he won the long game he won the long game he won the long game and some of that is the victor's do and some of that is the victor's do and some of that is the victor's do write write write the story and um the story and um the story and um i ask myself very much how will history i ask myself very much how will history i ask myself very much how will history remember vladimir zelinski remember vladimir zelinski remember vladimir zelinski it's not obvious and how will history it's not obvious and how will history it's not obvious and how will history remember putin remember putin remember putin that too that too that too is not obvious is not obvious is not obvious um um um because it depends on how because it depends on how because it depends on how the role the geopolitics the role the geopolitics the role the geopolitics the how the nations how the history of the how the nations how the history of the how the nations how the history of these nations unravel unfold rather these nations unravel unfold rather these nations unravel unfold rather so so so it's very interesting to think about and it's very interesting to think about and it's very interesting to think about and the same is true for the same is true for the same is true for donald trump joe biden donald trump joe biden donald trump joe biden obama obama obama george bush george bush george bush bill clinton bill clinton bill clinton and so on and so on and so on i think it's a probably unanswerable i think it's a probably unanswerable i think it's a probably unanswerable question of which of the presidents will question of which of the presidents will question of which of the presidents will be remembered as a great president from be remembered as a great president from be remembered as a great president from this time you can make all kinds of this time you can make all kinds of this time you can make all kinds of cases for all kinds of people and they cases for all kinds of people and they cases for all kinds of people and they do but it's unclear it's fascinating to do but it's unclear it's fascinating to do but it's unclear it's fascinating to think about think about think about when the robots finally take over uh when the robots finally take over uh when the robots finally take over uh what which of the humans they will what which of the humans they will what which of the humans they will appreciate the most appreciate the most appreciate the most uh let me ask for advice do you have um uh let me ask for advice do you have um uh let me ask for advice do you have um advice for for young folks advice for for young folks advice for for young folks as they uh as they uh as they uh uh because you mentioned the the folks uh because you mentioned the the folks uh because you mentioned the the folks you're teaching they don't even they you're teaching they don't even they you're teaching they don't even they don't know what it's like to have waited don't know what it's like to have waited don't know what it's like to have waited on the internet for the for the thing to on the internet for the for the thing to on the internet for the for the thing to load up

load up load up for every single web page is that for every single web page is that for every single web page is that suffering they don't know what it's like suffering they don't know what it's like suffering they don't know what it's like to not have the internet and have a dial to not have the internet and have a dial to not have the internet and have a dial phone that goes phone that goes phone that goes and then the joy of getting angry at and then the joy of getting angry at and then the joy of getting angry at somebody and hanging up with a physical somebody and hanging up with a physical somebody and hanging up with a physical phone they don't know any of that phone they don't know any of that phone they don't know any of that uh so for those young folks that look at uh so for those young folks that look at uh so for those young folks that look at the contention election contentious the contention election contentious the contention election contentious elections they look at our contentious elections they look at our contentious elections they look at our contentious world world world our divided world what advice would you our divided world what advice would you our divided world what advice would you give them give them give them of how to have a career they can be of how to have a career they can be of how to have a career they can be proud of let's say they're in college or proud of let's say they're in college or proud of let's say they're in college or in high school in high school in high school and how to have a life they can be proud and how to have a life they can be proud and how to have a life they can be proud of oh man that's a big question um oh man that's a big question um yeah i've never given a graduation yeah i've never given a graduation yeah i've never given a graduation speech speech speech this is like warm up let's look for like this is like warm up let's look for like this is like warm up let's look for like raw materials before you write it uh if raw materials before you write it uh if raw materials before you write it uh if i did um i did um i did um i think um i think um i think um i think i would i think i would i think i would advise students that history teaches advise students that history teaches advise students that history teaches that you should be that you should be that you should be more optimistic than um more optimistic than um more optimistic than um than your current surroundings suggest than your current surroundings suggest than your current surroundings suggest right and i think right and i think right and i think it would be very easy as a young person it would be very easy as a young person it would be very easy as a young person today to think um there's there's today to think um there's there's today to think um there's there's nothing i can do about this politics nothing i can do about this politics nothing i can do about this politics there's nothing i can say there's nothing i can say there's nothing i can say to this person on the other side of the to this person on the other side of the to this person on the other side of the aisle there's nothing i can do about you aisle there's nothing i can do about you aisle there's nothing i can do about you know the planet um know the planet um know the planet um etc and just sort of give up etc and just sort of give up etc and just sort of give up um and i think history uh um and i think history uh um and i think history uh teaches that um you know uh teaches that um you know uh teaches that um you know uh you know we don't know who the winners you know we don't know who the winners you know we don't know who the winners and losers are in the long run but um and losers are in the long run but um and losers are in the long run but um but we know that the people who give up

but we know that the people who give up but we know that the people who give up are always the losers right um so don't are always the losers right um so don't are always the losers right um so don't give in to cynicism or apathy yeah give in to cynicism or apathy yeah give in to cynicism or apathy yeah optimism paves the way uh yeah because optimism paves the way uh yeah because optimism paves the way uh yeah because human beings are deeply uh resilient and human beings are deeply uh resilient and human beings are deeply uh resilient and creative even under um far more creative even under um far more creative even under um far more difficult circumstances than difficult circumstances than difficult circumstances than you know than we face right now well let you know than we face right now well let you know than we face right now well let me ask a question that you don't even me ask a question that you don't even me ask a question that you don't even need to that you wouldn't even dare need to that you wouldn't even dare need to that you wouldn't even dare cover in your graduation uh cover in your graduation uh cover in your graduation uh commencement speech commencement speech commencement speech uh what's the meaning of life uh what's the meaning of life uh what's the meaning of life why are we here why are we here why are we here this whole project that history studies this whole project that history studies this whole project that history studies and analyzes as if as if there's a point and analyzes as if as if there's a point and analyzes as if as if there's a point of the whole thing of the whole thing of the whole thing what is the point what is the point what is the point all the wars all the wars all the wars all the presidents all the presidents all the presidents all the struggles to discover what it all the struggles to discover what it all the struggles to discover what it means to be human of or reach for a means to be human of or reach for a means to be human of or reach for a higher ideal why higher ideal why higher ideal why why do you think we're here i think this is where i think this is where there there there is often a handoff from the historian um is often a handoff from the historian um is often a handoff from the historian um to to to the clergy the clergy the clergy right right right um you know who um you know who um you know who but in the end um but in the end um but in the end um uh uh uh it's less of there's less distance it's less of there's less distance it's less of there's less distance between the two than you think between the two than you think between the two than you think right that right that right that you know if you think about some of the you know if you think about some of the you know if you think about some of the kind of kind of kind of answers to that question what is the answers to that question what is the answers to that question what is the meaning of life that are given from meaning of life that are given from meaning of life that are given from religious traditions religious traditions religious traditions often they have often they have often they have a fundamentally historical core right

a fundamentally historical core right a fundamentally historical core right it's about it's about it's about you know unifying the past and the you know unifying the past and the you know unifying the past and the present present present in some other in some other in some other you know non-earthly um sort of you know non-earthly um sort of you know non-earthly um sort of dimension and you know so i think there is that i and you know so i think there is that i think even for people who who don't have think even for people who who don't have think even for people who who don't have uh religious belief um uh religious belief um uh religious belief um there's a way in which history there's a way in which history there's a way in which history um is about the shared the shared human um is about the shared the shared human um is about the shared the shared human condition um and condition um and condition um and i think historians aspire to telling all i think historians aspire to telling all i think historians aspire to telling all of that story right um you know we of that story right um you know we of that story right um you know we we drill down on the on the miseries of we drill down on the on the miseries of we drill down on the on the miseries of of war and depressions and of war and depressions and of war and depressions and and so forth but um but you know the and so forth but um but you know the and so forth but um but you know the story is not complete without story is not complete without story is not complete without you know blueberries and butterflies and you know blueberries and butterflies and you know blueberries and butterflies and and and all the rest uh that that go and and all the rest uh that that go and and all the rest uh that that go with it with it with it so both the humbling and the inspiring both the humbling and the inspiring aspect that you get by looking back at aspect that you get by looking back at aspect that you get by looking back at human history that uh we're human history that uh we're human history that uh we're in this together christopher this is a huge honor this is christopher this is a huge honor this is amazing conversation thank you for amazing conversation thank you for amazing conversation thank you for taking us back to a war that uh not taking us back to a war that uh not taking us back to a war that uh not often discussed but in many ways defined often discussed but in many ways defined often discussed but in many ways defined the 20 the 20 the 20 the 20th century and then the century we the 20th century and then the century we the 20th century and then the century we are in today which is the first world are in today which is the first world are in today which is the first world war war war the war that was supposed to end all the war that was supposed to end all the war that was supposed to end all wars but instead defined the future wars wars but instead defined the future wars wars but instead defined the future wars and defines our struggle to to try to and defines our struggle to to try to and defines our struggle to to try to avoid world war three avoid world war three avoid world war three so it's a huge honor you talk with me so it's a huge honor you talk with me so it's a huge honor you talk with me today this is amazing thank you so much

today this is amazing thank you so much today this is amazing thank you so much thank you thank you thank you thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with christopher capazzola conversation with christopher capazzola conversation with christopher capazzola to support this podcast please check out to support this podcast please check out to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description our sponsors in the description our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words and now let me leave you with some words and now let me leave you with some words from woodrow wilson in 1917 from woodrow wilson in 1917 from woodrow wilson in 1917 about world war one about world war one about world war one that haunted the rest of the 20th that haunted the rest of the 20th that haunted the rest of the 20th century century century this is a war to end all wars this is a war to end all wars this is a war to end all wars george santana a spanish-american george santana a spanish-american george santana a spanish-american philosopher responded to this quote in philosopher responded to this quote in philosopher responded to this quote in 1922 by saying 1922 by saying 1922 by saying only the dead have seen the end of war thank you for listening i hope to see thank you for listening i hope to see you next time