Anna Frebel: Origin and Evolution of the Universe, Galaxies, and Stars | Lex Fridman Podcast #378

I would run outside and just lay on the I would run outside and just lay on the ground under the southern Milky Way ground under the southern Milky Way ground under the southern Milky Way beautiful right up there and I would beautiful right up there and I would beautiful right up there and I would just lay there like the snow angel and just lay there like the snow angel and just lay there like the snow angel and just kind of let my thoughts sort of just kind of let my thoughts sort of just kind of let my thoughts sort of pass through my brain and this is when I pass through my brain and this is when I pass through my brain and this is when I personally have the feeling that I'm a personally have the feeling that I'm a personally have the feeling that I'm a part of it I I belong here rather than part of it I I belong here rather than part of it I I belong here rather than feeling kind of small yes I'm small but feeling kind of small yes I'm small but feeling kind of small yes I'm small but there are many other small things and there are many other small things and there are many other small things and lots of small things make one big hole the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with Anna for about an astrophysicist at MIT Anna for about an astrophysicist at MIT Anna for about an astrophysicist at MIT studying the oldest stars in the Milky studying the oldest stars in the Milky studying the oldest stars in the Milky Way galaxy in order to understand the Way galaxy in order to understand the Way galaxy in order to understand the chemical and physical conditions of the chemical and physical conditions of the chemical and physical conditions of the early universe and how from that our early universe and how from that our early universe and how from that our galaxy formed and evolved to what it is galaxy formed and evolved to what it is galaxy formed and evolved to what it is today the place we humans call home today the place we humans call home today the place we humans call home this is the Lex Friedman podcast to this is the Lex Friedman podcast to this is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's Anna for Belle here's Anna for Belle here's Anna for Belle let's go back to the early days what did let's go back to the early days what did let's go back to the early days what did the formation of the Milky Way galaxy the formation of the Milky Way galaxy the formation of the Milky Way galaxy look like or maybe we want to start even look like or maybe we want to start even look like or maybe we want to start even before that what did the formation of before that what did the formation of before that what did the formation of the universe look like the universe look like the universe look like well we scientists believe there was the well we scientists believe there was the well we scientists believe there was the Big Bang some big beginning Big Bang some big beginning Big Bang some big beginning but what is important for my work and I but what is important for my work and I but what is important for my work and I think that's what we're going to talk think that's what we're going to talk think that's what we're going to talk about is what kind of elements were about is what kind of elements were about is what kind of elements were present at that time present at that time present at that time so the Big Bang left a universe behind so the Big Bang left a universe behind so the Big Bang left a universe behind that was made of just hydrogen and that was made of just hydrogen and that was made of just hydrogen and helium and tiny little sprinkles of

helium and tiny little sprinkles of helium and tiny little sprinkles of lithium lithium lithium and that was pretty much it and that was pretty much it and that was pretty much it and as it turns out it's actually quite and as it turns out it's actually quite and as it turns out it's actually quite hard to make stars or any structure from hard to make stars or any structure from hard to make stars or any structure from that that's fairly hot gas that that's fairly hot gas that that's fairly hot gas and so the very first stars that formed and so the very first stars that formed and so the very first stars that formed prior to to any galaxies were very prior to to any galaxies were very prior to to any galaxies were very massive stars big stars 100 times the massive stars big stars 100 times the massive stars big stars 100 times the mass of the Sun and they were made from mass of the Sun and they were made from mass of the Sun and they were made from just hydrogen and helium so big stars just hydrogen and helium so big stars just hydrogen and helium so big stars explode pretty fast after a few million explode pretty fast after a few million explode pretty fast after a few million years only that's very short on Cosmic years only that's very short on Cosmic years only that's very short on Cosmic time scales time scales time scales and in their explosions they provided and in their explosions they provided and in their explosions they provided the first heavier elements to the the first heavier elements to the the first heavier elements to the universe because in that course All universe because in that course All universe because in that course All Stars fuse lighter elements like Stars fuse lighter elements like Stars fuse lighter elements like hydrogen helium into heavier ones hydrogen helium into heavier ones hydrogen helium into heavier ones and then that goes all the way up to and then that goes all the way up to and then that goes all the way up to iron and then all that material gets iron and then all that material gets iron and then all that material gets ejected in these massive Supernova ejected in these massive Supernova ejected in these massive Supernova explosions and that marked a really explosions and that marked a really explosions and that marked a really really important really important really important transition in the universe because after transition in the universe because after transition in the universe because after that first explosion that first explosion that first explosion it was no longer chemically pristine it was no longer chemically pristine it was no longer chemically pristine and that's at the stage for everything and that's at the stage for everything and that's at the stage for everything else to happen including us here talking else to happen including us here talking else to happen including us here talking today so what do you mean by pristine so today so what do you mean by pristine so today so what do you mean by pristine so there's a whole there's a whole there's a whole uh complex soup of elements now as uh complex soup of elements now as uh complex soup of elements now as opposed to just hydrogen helium and a opposed to just hydrogen helium and a opposed to just hydrogen helium and a little bit of lithium yeah so after the little bit of lithium yeah so after the little bit of lithium yeah so after the big bang just hydrogen and helium we big bang just hydrogen and helium we big bang just hydrogen and helium we don't really need to talk too much about don't really need to talk too much about don't really need to talk too much about lithium because the amount was so small

lithium because the amount was so small lithium because the amount was so small um and after these very first stars um and after these very first stars um and after these very first stars formed and exploded they and the heavier formed and exploded they and the heavier formed and exploded they and the heavier elements like carbon oxygen magnesium elements like carbon oxygen magnesium elements like carbon oxygen magnesium iron all of that stuff was was suddenly iron all of that stuff was was suddenly iron all of that stuff was was suddenly present in the gas clouds present in the gas clouds present in the gas clouds tiny amounts only very tiny amounts but tiny amounts only very tiny amounts but tiny amounts only very tiny amounts but and that actually helped especially the and that actually helped especially the and that actually helped especially the carbon and the oxygen to to make the gas carbon and the oxygen to to make the gas carbon and the oxygen to to make the gas cool these atoms are more complicated cool these atoms are more complicated cool these atoms are more complicated than hydrogen that's just a proton and than hydrogen that's just a proton and than hydrogen that's just a proton and so it has cooling properties can send so it has cooling properties can send so it has cooling properties can send out photons outside of the gas cloud so out photons outside of the gas cloud so out photons outside of the gas cloud so the gas can cool and when you have gas the gas can cool and when you have gas the gas can cool and when you have gas that that gets colder and colder you can that that gets colder and colder you can that that gets colder and colder you can make smaller and smaller Stars so you make smaller and smaller Stars so you make smaller and smaller Stars so you can fragment it and Clump it and turn it can fragment it and Clump it and turn it can fragment it and Clump it and turn it into stars like like the sun and the into stars like like the sun and the into stars like like the sun and the cool thing about that is that cool thing about that is that cool thing about that is that when you have small stars like the sun when you have small stars like the sun when you have small stars like the sun they have a really long lifetime so they have a really long lifetime so they have a really long lifetime so those first low masters that formed back those first low masters that formed back those first low masters that formed back then are still observable today then are still observable today then are still observable today that is actually what I do I try to find that is actually what I do I try to find that is actually what I do I try to find these early survivors these early survivors these early survivors because they tell us because they tell us because they tell us what the gas looked like back then they what the gas looked like back then they what the gas looked like back then they have preserved that composition of these have preserved that composition of these have preserved that composition of these early gas cloud the chemical early gas cloud the chemical early gas cloud the chemical compositions until today so I don't need compositions until today so I don't need compositions until today so I don't need to look very far into the universe to to look very far into the universe to to look very far into the universe to study all the beginnings I can just study all the beginnings I can just study all the beginnings I can just chemically analyze the older stars and chemically analyze the older stars and chemically analyze the older stars and it's like unpacking everything that that it's like unpacking everything that that it's like unpacking everything that that happened back then it's very exciting so happened back then it's very exciting so happened back then it's very exciting so to just reiterate so in the very early

to just reiterate so in the very early to just reiterate so in the very early days in the first few million years days in the first few million years days in the first few million years there's giant Stars that's mostly there's giant Stars that's mostly there's giant Stars that's mostly hydrogen helium then they exploded in hydrogen helium then they exploded in hydrogen helium then they exploded in these Supernova explosions and then they these Supernova explosions and then they these Supernova explosions and then they made these clumps made these clumps made these clumps yeah so the first one is pristine yeah so the first one is pristine yeah so the first one is pristine non-pristine clumps yeah pretty much fun non-pristine clumps yeah pretty much fun non-pristine clumps yeah pretty much fun so it took a few hundred million years so it took a few hundred million years so it took a few hundred million years for the first stars to emerge and then for the first stars to emerge and then for the first stars to emerge and then they exploded after a few million years they exploded after a few million years they exploded after a few million years Kaboom and then it's like I always Kaboom and then it's like I always Kaboom and then it's like I always consider the universe like a you know a consider the universe like a you know a consider the universe like a you know a nice soup and then these first Supernova nice soup and then these first Supernova nice soup and then these first Supernova explosions kind of provided the salt you explosions kind of provided the salt you explosions kind of provided the salt you know just a little sprinkle of heavier know just a little sprinkle of heavier know just a little sprinkle of heavier elements and that made it really tasty elements and that made it really tasty elements and that made it really tasty it's just changed it completely right it's just changed it completely right it's just changed it completely right and that changed the physics of the gas and that changed the physics of the gas and that changed the physics of the gas so that meant that these these gas so that meant that these these gas so that meant that these these gas clouds that were you know surrounding clouds that were you know surrounding clouds that were you know surrounding the the Forma first Stars they could now the the Forma first Stars they could now the the Forma first Stars they could now cool down and Clump and form the next cool down and Clump and form the next cool down and Clump and form the next generation of stars that now included generation of stars that now included generation of stars that now included also little stars also little stars also little stars and as I just mentioned the small stars and as I just mentioned the small stars and as I just mentioned the small stars have these really long lifetimes the sun have these really long lifetimes the sun have these really long lifetimes the sun has a lifetime of 10 billion years has a lifetime of 10 billion years has a lifetime of 10 billion years any star that is even less massive will any star that is even less massive will any star that is even less massive will have an even longer lifetime have an even longer lifetime have an even longer lifetime so that gives us a chance to to still so that gives us a chance to to still so that gives us a chance to to still observe some of the stats that form back observe some of the stats that form back observe some of the stats that form back then so we are testing the the then so we are testing the the then so we are testing the the conditions of chemical and physical conditions of chemical and physical conditions of chemical and physical conditions of the early Universe even conditions of the early Universe even conditions of the early Universe even before the Galaxy formed so what's the before the Galaxy formed so what's the before the Galaxy formed so what's the timeline that we're talking about what timeline that we're talking about what timeline that we're talking about what is the age of the universe and what is is the age of the universe and what is is the age of the universe and what is the earliest time we got those salty

the earliest time we got those salty the earliest time we got those salty delicious soup Clump soups with heavier delicious soup Clump soups with heavier delicious soup Clump soups with heavier elements elements elements well the universe is 13.8 billion years well the universe is 13.8 billion years well the universe is 13.8 billion years old well legitly yeah when I was in high school the universe when I was in high school the universe was 20 billion years old yeah so the was 20 billion years old yeah so the was 20 billion years old yeah so the estimate did you change do you think estimate did you change do you think estimate did you change do you think that estimate will evolve in interesting that estimate will evolve in interesting that estimate will evolve in interesting ways or no is that is it I think it's ways or no is that is it I think it's ways or no is that is it I think it's mostly converged yes because the mostly converged yes because the mostly converged yes because the techniques are very different now much techniques are very different now much techniques are very different now much more precise the whole business of more precise the whole business of more precise the whole business of precision cosmology by mapping out the precision cosmology by mapping out the precision cosmology by mapping out the cosmic microf background you know that cosmic microf background you know that cosmic microf background you know that that's a marvelous feat that's a marvelous feat that's a marvelous feat um maybe you know the digits will still um maybe you know the digits will still um maybe you know the digits will still move around a little bit but that's all move around a little bit but that's all move around a little bit but that's all right plus the gravitational waves and right plus the gravitational waves and right plus the gravitational waves and all that all the different sources of all that all the different sources of all that all the different sources of data yeah kind of mapping out this data yeah kind of mapping out this data yeah kind of mapping out this detailed picture of the early Universe detailed picture of the early Universe detailed picture of the early Universe yeah totally and so we think the yeah totally and so we think the yeah totally and so we think the earliest little stars formed I don't earliest little stars formed I don't earliest little stars formed I don't know maybe half a billion years after know maybe half a billion years after know maybe half a billion years after the big bang right again a few hundred the big bang right again a few hundred the big bang right again a few hundred million years for the first stars to million years for the first stars to million years for the first stars to emerge and then you know took some time emerge and then you know took some time emerge and then you know took some time so give or take half a billion years and so give or take half a billion years and so give or take half a billion years and um that was the time when sort of the um that was the time when sort of the um that was the time when sort of the very first pro photo galaxies formed very first pro photo galaxies formed very first pro photo galaxies formed early Stella structures Stella systems early Stella structures Stella systems early Stella structures Stella systems from which the Milky Way eventually from which the Milky Way eventually from which the Milky Way eventually formed right so it was the Mickey was formed right so it was the Mickey was formed right so it was the Mickey was probably a bigger slightly bigger one probably a bigger slightly bigger one probably a bigger slightly bigger one and we know today that galaxies grow and we know today that galaxies grow and we know today that galaxies grow hierarchically which means they eat hierarchically which means they eat hierarchically which means they eat their smaller neighbors so if you're the their smaller neighbors so if you're the their smaller neighbors so if you're the bigger one and have a few a few friends

bigger one and have a few a few friends bigger one and have a few a few friends around you're just gonna around you're just gonna around you're just gonna um eat them absorb them and then you um eat them absorb them and then you um eat them absorb them and then you grow bigger and grow bigger and grow bigger and um so all these these little early Stars um so all these these little early Stars um so all these these little early Stars you know kind of came into the Mickey you know kind of came into the Mickey you know kind of came into the Mickey way through that kind of process way through that kind of process way through that kind of process and that's why we find them in the outer and that's why we find them in the outer and that's why we find them in the outer parts of the Galaxy today because parts of the Galaxy today because parts of the Galaxy today because they're just kind of deaf and just left they're just kind of deaf and just left they're just kind of deaf and just left there since so the old stuff is on the there since so the old stuff is on the there since so the old stuff is on the outskirts of the Galaxy and the new outskirts of the Galaxy and the new outskirts of the Galaxy and the new stuff is in closer to the middle is stuff is in closer to the middle is stuff is in closer to the middle is there broadly speaking okay yes because there broadly speaking okay yes because there broadly speaking okay yes because that's where you would look for it so that's where you would look for it so that's where you would look for it so maybe it's just a step back like what is maybe it's just a step back like what is maybe it's just a step back like what is a Galaxy what is the part of the Galaxy a Galaxy what is the part of the Galaxy a Galaxy what is the part of the Galaxy I love that question so the Galaxy is I love that question so the Galaxy is I love that question so the Galaxy is um assembly of assembly of Stars the Milky Way contains something Stars the Milky Way contains something Stars the Milky Way contains something like 200 to 400 billion stars and most like 200 to 400 billion stars and most like 200 to 400 billion stars and most of the material and the stars are in the of the material and the stars are in the of the material and the stars are in the disk and when we look at the night sky disk and when we look at the night sky disk and when we look at the night sky what we see as The Milky Way band on the what we see as The Milky Way band on the what we see as The Milky Way band on the sky that is actually the it more the sky that is actually the it more the sky that is actually the it more the inner the next inner spiral arm because inner the next inner spiral arm because inner the next inner spiral arm because we actually live in a spiral this we actually live in a spiral this we actually live in a spiral this galaxies are the Mickey who has a spiral galaxies are the Mickey who has a spiral galaxies are the Mickey who has a spiral disc Galaxy disc Galaxy disc Galaxy um and we're looking um and we're looking um and we're looking um actually depends a little bit in the um actually depends a little bit in the um actually depends a little bit in the northern hemisphere we're looking out of northern hemisphere we're looking out of northern hemisphere we're looking out of the Galaxy so we're seeing the next the Galaxy so we're seeing the next the Galaxy so we're seeing the next outer spiral arm outer spiral arm outer spiral arm and as you can imagine there's only dark and as you can imagine there's only dark and as you can imagine there's only dark space behind that so we don't see it all space behind that so we don't see it all space behind that so we don't see it all that nice on the sky but if you travel

that nice on the sky but if you travel that nice on the sky but if you travel to South uh to the southern hemisphere to South uh to the southern hemisphere to South uh to the southern hemisphere let's say South America you see the make let's say South America you see the make let's say South America you see the make you and it looks so different on the sky you and it looks so different on the sky you and it looks so different on the sky because that's the next inner spiral arm because that's the next inner spiral arm because that's the next inner spiral arm and that's backlit by the galactic and that's backlit by the galactic and that's backlit by the galactic center center center the galactic center is is a very big the galactic center is is a very big the galactic center is is a very big puffy puffy puffy you know region of gas there's a lot of you know region of gas there's a lot of you know region of gas there's a lot of star formation that the galactic party star formation that the galactic party star formation that the galactic party is happening there so it's very bright is happening there so it's very bright is happening there so it's very bright and it it makes for this very beautiful and it it makes for this very beautiful and it it makes for this very beautiful Milky Way on the night sky that we see Milky Way on the night sky that we see Milky Way on the night sky that we see so actually if you if you ever get the so actually if you if you ever get the so actually if you if you ever get the chance to experience that I encourage chance to experience that I encourage chance to experience that I encourage you to almost like close your eyes while you to almost like close your eyes while you to almost like close your eyes while seeing this and imagining that you're seeing this and imagining that you're seeing this and imagining that you're sitting in this kind of disc in this sitting in this kind of disc in this sitting in this kind of disc in this pancake and you're just kind of looking pancake and you're just kind of looking pancake and you're just kind of looking right into it and you can you can really right into it and you can you can really right into it and you can you can really feel that we're in this 2D disc feel that we're in this 2D disc feel that we're in this 2D disc and then you can imagine that there's a and then you can imagine that there's a and then you can imagine that there's a top and the bottom and that that we top and the bottom and that that we top and the bottom and that that we really part of the Galaxy you can really really part of the Galaxy you can really really part of the Galaxy you can really experience that we're just not not just experience that we're just not not just experience that we're just not not just lost in space somewhere but we're really lost in space somewhere but we're really lost in space somewhere but we're really a part of it and you know knowing a a part of it and you know knowing a a part of it and you know knowing a little bit about the structure of the little bit about the structure of the little bit about the structure of the Mickey wear really helps do you feel Mickey wear really helps do you feel Mickey wear really helps do you feel small when you think about that when you small when you think about that when you small when you think about that when you look on that spiral on the inside of the look on that spiral on the inside of the look on that spiral on the inside of the Milky Way and then you look out to the Milky Way and then you look out to the Milky Way and then you look out to the outside like how are we supposed to feel outside like how are we supposed to feel outside like how are we supposed to feel I I don't know I I don't feel small I I don't know I I don't feel small I I don't know I I don't feel small necessarily I feel in awe and I feel I'm necessarily I feel in awe and I feel I'm necessarily I feel in awe and I feel I'm a part of it because I can really feel a part of it because I can really feel a part of it because I can really feel that I'm a part of it that I'm a part of it that I'm a part of it um I think for many people they think um I think for many people they think um I think for many people they think like oh that's just the planet and then like oh that's just the planet and then like oh that's just the planet and then there's nothing and

there's nothing and there's nothing and that's almost a little bit sad but that's almost a little bit sad but that's almost a little bit sad but that's really not the case right because that's really not the case right because that's really not the case right because there's there's so much more and I there's there's so much more and I there's there's so much more and I really like to imagine wow I'm I'm really like to imagine wow I'm I'm really like to imagine wow I'm I'm sitting in this big Galactic sitting in this big Galactic sitting in this big Galactic Merry-Go-Round and we're going around Merry-Go-Round and we're going around Merry-Go-Round and we're going around the center and I can see the center the center and I can see the center the center and I can see the center above me right and I can almost feel above me right and I can almost feel above me right and I can almost feel like we're going going there like we're going going there like we're going going there um of course we can't really feel that um of course we can't really feel that um of course we can't really feel that but the sun does Circle the galactic but the sun does Circle the galactic but the sun does Circle the galactic center but there's a kind of sadness to center but there's a kind of sadness to center but there's a kind of sadness to like looking pictures of a nice vacation like looking pictures of a nice vacation like looking pictures of a nice vacation place place place all we get is that light and old light all we get is that light and old light all we get is that light and old light is do you feel like sad that we don't is do you feel like sad that we don't is do you feel like sad that we don't get to travel or you and I will not get get to travel or you and I will not get get to travel or you and I will not get to travel there and maybe humans will to travel there and maybe humans will to travel there and maybe humans will never get to travel there yeah I always never get to travel there yeah I always never get to travel there yeah I always wanted to travel to space and see the wanted to travel to space and see the wanted to travel to space and see the Earth and other things from from up Earth and other things from from up Earth and other things from from up there there's there's certainly that but there there's there's certainly that but there there's there's certainly that but I don't know it's it's also okay it I don't know it's it's also okay it I don't know it's it's also okay it would just be at our vantage point and would just be at our vantage point and would just be at our vantage point and and see it from from here with the and see it from from here with the and see it from from here with the sensors with the telescopes that we have sensors with the telescopes that we have sensors with the telescopes that we have and explore the possibilities yeah I and explore the possibilities yeah I and explore the possibilities yeah I mean there is a kind of wander to the mean there is a kind of wander to the mean there is a kind of wander to the mystery of it all what what's out there mystery of it all what what's out there mystery of it all what what's out there what interesting things that we can't what interesting things that we can't what interesting things that we can't possibly imagine you know there could be possibly imagine you know there could be possibly imagine you know there could be all kinds of life forms bacteria all all kinds of life forms bacteria all all kinds of life forms bacteria all this kind of stuff I tend to believe this kind of stuff I tend to believe this kind of stuff I tend to believe that that that um um um you know it depends on the day I tend to you know it depends on the day I tend to you know it depends on the day I tend to believe there's just a lot of very believe there's just a lot of very believe there's just a lot of very primitive organisms just spread out primitive organisms just spread out primitive organisms just spread out throughout and they build their little throughout and they build their little throughout and they build their little things like bacteria type organisms things like bacteria type organisms things like bacteria type organisms um um um I used to think what kind of Worlds

I used to think what kind of Worlds I used to think what kind of Worlds there are because they're probably there are because they're probably there are because they're probably really creative living organisms really creative living organisms really creative living organisms because the conditions I guess the because the conditions I guess the because the conditions I guess the question I'm question I'm question I'm wondering to myself when I look out wondering to myself when I look out wondering to myself when I look out there to the Stars how different are the there to the Stars how different are the there to the Stars how different are the conditions on the different planets that conditions on the different planets that conditions on the different planets that orbit those Stars it will definitely be orbit those Stars it will definitely be orbit those Stars it will definitely be very different I mean the variety out very different I mean the variety out very different I mean the variety out there is is huge we know now that I there is is huge we know now that I there is is huge we know now that I think it's about every other star has at think it's about every other star has at think it's about every other star has at least one planet least one planet least one planet I I already mentioned the number of I I already mentioned the number of I I already mentioned the number of stars in the galaxy I mean you know stars in the galaxy I mean you know stars in the galaxy I mean you know that's it's a huge number of planets out that's it's a huge number of planets out that's it's a huge number of planets out there so who knows what that looks like there so who knows what that looks like there so who knows what that looks like all we know is that there's all we know is that there's all we know is that there's there is a lot of variety we don't quite there is a lot of variety we don't quite there is a lot of variety we don't quite yet understand yet understand yet understand what drives that what governs that why what drives that what governs that why what drives that what governs that why that is the case why is it not all one that is the case why is it not all one that is the case why is it not all one size fits all right maybe the Dynamics size fits all right maybe the Dynamics size fits all right maybe the Dynamics of Planet formation like exoplanet of Planet formation like exoplanet of Planet formation like exoplanet formation or Star formation the whole formation or Star formation the whole formation or Star formation the whole all of it all of it all of it all of it all of it all of it our formation is remains a much research our formation is remains a much research our formation is remains a much research topic topic topic it kind of we definitely know that it it kind of we definitely know that it it kind of we definitely know that it works because all the stars are there works because all the stars are there works because all the stars are there same for the planets but the details are same for the planets but the details are same for the planets but the details are so varied per gas cloud right so varied per gas cloud right so varied per gas cloud right um it's very hard to to come up with um it's very hard to to come up with um it's very hard to to come up with very detailed prescriptions broadly we very detailed prescriptions broadly we very detailed prescriptions broadly we have figured it out you need a gas cloud have figured it out you need a gas cloud have figured it out you need a gas cloud you need to cool it you need to cool it you need to cool it something clumps and fragments and something clumps and fragments and something clumps and fragments and somehow it makes a star with planets or somehow it makes a star with planets or somehow it makes a star with planets or without but the Dynamics of the clumping

without but the Dynamics of the clumping without but the Dynamics of the clumping process is not fully understood no no process is not fully understood no no process is not fully understood no no and and the local conditions are so and and the local conditions are so and and the local conditions are so varied right I mean it's the same with varied right I mean it's the same with varied right I mean it's the same with you know all people look like people but you know all people look like people but you know all people look like people but individually we look very different so individually we look very different so individually we look very different so even the subtle diversity of the even the subtle diversity of the even the subtle diversity of the formation process creates all kinds of formation process creates all kinds of formation process creates all kinds of fun yes so you we just don't know how fun yes so you we just don't know how fun yes so you we just don't know how this turned out in an individual case this turned out in an individual case this turned out in an individual case and it's kind of hard to and it's kind of hard to and it's kind of hard to to figure it all out and and to take a to figure it all out and and to take a to figure it all out and and to take a look certainly with planets right the look certainly with planets right the look certainly with planets right the chance forever to ever actually take a chance forever to ever actually take a chance forever to ever actually take a picture of a planet is minuscule because picture of a planet is minuscule because picture of a planet is minuscule because they don't shine so they're really dark they don't shine so they're really dark they don't shine so they're really dark yeah so I'd say there's there's a lot of yeah so I'd say there's there's a lot of yeah so I'd say there's there's a lot of possibility out there possibility out there possibility out there but we have to be a little bit more but we have to be a little bit more but we have to be a little bit more patient before we come up with patient before we come up with patient before we come up with Technologies where patience becomes less Technologies where patience becomes less Technologies where patience becomes less necessary by extending our lifetimes or necessary by extending our lifetimes or necessary by extending our lifetimes or or increasing the speed of space travel or increasing the speed of space travel or increasing the speed of space travel all the kind of stuff he was a pretty all the kind of stuff he was a pretty all the kind of stuff he was a pretty pretty intelligent they're pretty uh pretty intelligent they're pretty uh pretty intelligent they're pretty uh sometimes yeah for the most part I hope sometimes yeah for the most part I hope sometimes yeah for the most part I hope and now when I'm on the optimistic days and now when I'm on the optimistic days and now when I'm on the optimistic days well maybe just to linger on the on the well maybe just to linger on the on the well maybe just to linger on the on the what a galaxy is what a galaxy is what a galaxy is um what should we know about our um what should we know about our um what should we know about our understanding of black holes in the understanding of black holes in the understanding of black holes in the formation is that an important thing to formation is that an important thing to formation is that an important thing to understand in the formation of a galaxy understand in the formation of a galaxy understand in the formation of a galaxy like uh so all the orbiting all the like uh so all the orbiting all the like uh so all the orbiting all the Sparling that's going on how important Sparling that's going on how important Sparling that's going on how important is that to understand all of the above is that to understand all of the above is that to understand all of the above that's what makes astronomy really hard that's what makes astronomy really hard that's what makes astronomy really hard but also really interesting right no day

but also really interesting right no day but also really interesting right no day is like another because we always find is like another because we always find is like another because we always find something new I want to come back to the something new I want to come back to the something new I want to come back to the the idea of the Proto Galaxy because the idea of the Proto Galaxy because the idea of the Proto Galaxy because it's actually matches or you know it's actually matches or you know it's actually matches or you know relates to to the black hole formation relates to to the black hole formation relates to to the black hole formation so most large gal well pretty much all so most large gal well pretty much all so most large gal well pretty much all large Galaxies have a supermassive black large Galaxies have a supermassive black large Galaxies have a supermassive black hole in the center and we don't actually hole in the center and we don't actually hole in the center and we don't actually know don't we don't really know where know don't we don't really know where know don't we don't really know where they come from again we know that they they come from again we know that they they come from again we know that they are there but how how do we get there so are there but how how do we get there so are there but how how do we get there so if we go back to the to the early if we go back to the to the early if we go back to the to the early Universe right we had a a little Galaxy Universe right we had a a little Galaxy Universe right we had a a little Galaxy that just sort of you know I don't know that just sort of you know I don't know that just sort of you know I don't know had some small number of stars it was a had some small number of stars it was a had some small number of stars it was a first gravitationally bound structure first gravitationally bound structure first gravitationally bound structure that that was held together by dark that that was held together by dark that that was held together by dark matter because Dark Matter actually kind matter because Dark Matter actually kind matter because Dark Matter actually kind of structured up you know first before of structured up you know first before of structured up you know first before the Luminous matter could because that's the Luminous matter could because that's the Luminous matter could because that's what Dark Matter kind of does and it it what Dark Matter kind of does and it it what Dark Matter kind of does and it it started to hold started to hold started to hold um gas and then Stars sort of together um gas and then Stars sort of together um gas and then Stars sort of together in this first very shallow in this first very shallow in this first very shallow um what we call potential well so these um what we call potential well so these um what we call potential well so these gravitationally bound systems gravitationally bound systems gravitationally bound systems and then the Milky Way Grew From and then the Milky Way Grew From and then the Milky Way Grew From absorbing neighboring smaller even absorbing neighboring smaller even absorbing neighboring smaller even smaller systems and somewhere in that smaller systems and somewhere in that smaller systems and somewhere in that process there must have been a seed for one of there must have been a seed for one of these supermassive black holes and I'm these supermassive black holes and I'm these supermassive black holes and I'm I'm not actually sure that it's clear I'm not actually sure that it's clear I'm not actually sure that it's clear right now kind of what was there first right now kind of what was there first right now kind of what was there first the Supermassive Black Hole uh or the the Supermassive Black Hole uh or the the Supermassive Black Hole uh or the Galaxy so lots of people are trying to Galaxy so lots of people are trying to Galaxy so lots of people are trying to study that and of course the black hole

study that and of course the black hole study that and of course the black hole wasn't as massive back then as it is wasn't as massive back then as it is wasn't as massive back then as it is these days these days these days um but it's that's a it's a big area of um but it's that's a it's a big area of um but it's that's a it's a big area of research and the new um James Webb the research and the new um James Webb the research and the new um James Webb the jwc the telescope the infrared telescope jwc the telescope the infrared telescope jwc the telescope the infrared telescope in space is um is working on many people in space is um is working on many people in space is um is working on many people are working on that are working on that are working on that to to figure out exactly what what to to figure out exactly what what to to figure out exactly what what happened and there are some some happened and there are some some happened and there are some some surprising results surprising results surprising results um that we really don't understand right um that we really don't understand right um that we really don't understand right now so so to solve the uh the chicken or now so so to solve the uh the chicken or now so so to solve the uh the chicken or the egg problem of uh do you need a the egg problem of uh do you need a the egg problem of uh do you need a supermassive black hole to form a Galaxy supermassive black hole to form a Galaxy supermassive black hole to form a Galaxy or does the Galaxy naturally create the or does the Galaxy naturally create the or does the Galaxy naturally create the supermassive black girl yeah yeah I mean supermassive black girl yeah yeah I mean supermassive black girl yeah yeah I mean I I I we can't answer that because there are we can't answer that because there are we can't answer that because there are lots of little dwarf galaxies out there lots of little dwarf galaxies out there lots of little dwarf galaxies out there you know the Milky Way remains you know the Milky Way remains you know the Milky Way remains surrounded by many surrounded by many surrounded by many dozens of of small dwarf galaxies I have dozens of of small dwarf galaxies I have dozens of of small dwarf galaxies I have studied a bunch of them and to the studied a bunch of them and to the studied a bunch of them and to the extent that we can tell they do not extent that we can tell they do not extent that we can tell they do not contain black holes contain black holes contain black holes so they are certainly were so they are certainly were so they are certainly were gravitationally bound structures so gravitationally bound structures so gravitationally bound structures so either you can call them proto-galaxies either you can call them proto-galaxies either you can call them proto-galaxies or dwarf galaxies or first galaxies they or dwarf galaxies or first galaxies they or dwarf galaxies or first galaxies they were definitely there were definitely there were definitely there but there must have been bigger things but there must have been bigger things but there must have been bigger things like the Proto Mickey way where like the Proto Mickey way where like the Proto Mickey way where something was different right what made something was different right what made something was different right what made them more massive so that you know they them more massive so that you know they them more massive so that you know they would gravitationally attract these would gravitationally attract these would gravitationally attract these smaller systems to to integrate them smaller systems to to integrate them smaller systems to to integrate them so we'll have to see how do we look into so we'll have to see how do we look into so we'll have to see how do we look into that the into the the Dynamics of the that the into the the Dynamics of the that the into the the Dynamics of the formation the evolution of the portal formation the evolution of the portal formation the evolution of the portal galaxies is it possible that they shine

galaxies is it possible that they shine galaxies is it possible that they shine I mean what what are the I mean what what are the I mean what what are the set of data that we can possibly look at set of data that we can possibly look at set of data that we can possibly look at so we've got gravitational ways so we've got gravitational ways so we've got gravitational ways which is really insane that we could which is really insane that we could which is really insane that we could even detect this even detect this even detect this um there's the light um there's the light um there's the light what else can we uh so that that would what else can we uh so that that would what else can we uh so that that would fall into the category of observational fall into the category of observational fall into the category of observational cosmology and the the jwst is is the cosmology and the the jwst is is the cosmology and the the jwst is is the prime telescope right now to any prime telescope right now to any prime telescope right now to any promises big big steps forward this is promises big big steps forward this is promises big big steps forward this is in its early days because it's only been in its early days because it's only been in its early days because it's only been online like a year or so online like a year or so online like a year or so um but that collects the infrared light um but that collects the infrared light um but that collects the infrared light from the farthest from the farthest from the farthest like literally Proto Galaxy's earliest like literally Proto Galaxy's earliest like literally Proto Galaxy's earliest galaxies that light has traveled some 13 galaxies that light has traveled some 13 galaxies that light has traveled some 13 billion years to us and they are billion years to us and they are billion years to us and they are observing these faint little blobs um and folks are trying to you know um and folks are trying to you know again study the early the onset of these again study the early the onset of these again study the early the onset of these early supermassive black holes how they early supermassive black holes how they early supermassive black holes how they shape Galaxy so they're they're seeing shape Galaxy so they're they're seeing shape Galaxy so they're they're seeing that they are they were there you know that they are they were there you know that they are they were there you know surrounded by already bigger galaxies surrounded by already bigger galaxies surrounded by already bigger galaxies ideally I'd like for for my colleagues ideally I'd like for for my colleagues ideally I'd like for for my colleagues to push a little bit further hopefully to push a little bit further hopefully to push a little bit further hopefully that will eventually happen in terms of that will eventually happen in terms of that will eventually happen in terms of looking towards the older and older ones looking towards the older and older ones looking towards the older and older ones yeah yeah more and more sort of yeah yeah more and more sort of yeah yeah more and more sort of primitive in terms of the structure but primitive in terms of the structure but primitive in terms of the structure but of course as you can imagine if you make of course as you can imagine if you make of course as you can imagine if you make your system smaller and smaller it your system smaller and smaller it your system smaller and smaller it becomes dimmer and dimmer and it's becomes dimmer and dimmer and it's becomes dimmer and dimmer and it's further and further that way so we're further and further that way so we're further and further that way so we're reaching the end of the line from a reaching the end of the line from a reaching the end of the line from a technical perspective pretty quickly but

technical perspective pretty quickly but technical perspective pretty quickly but it's dimmer and dimmer means older and it's dimmer and dimmer means older and it's dimmer and dimmer means older and older older older um um um yes in a sense because it it all started yes in a sense because it it all started yes in a sense because it it all started really small really small really small or smaller yeah or smaller yeah or smaller yeah in that phase of the universe it would in that phase of the universe it would in that phase of the universe it would otherwise it it doesn't yeah uh just to otherwise it it doesn't yeah uh just to otherwise it it doesn't yeah uh just to take a small attention about black holes take a small attention about black holes take a small attention about black holes and and and you know because you do quite a bit of you know because you do quite a bit of you know because you do quite a bit of observational cosmology and maybe observational cosmology and maybe observational cosmology and maybe experimental experimental experimental um astrophysics um astrophysics um astrophysics um um um what's the difference to you between what's the difference to you between what's the difference to you between theoretical physics and experimental so theoretical physics and experimental so theoretical physics and experimental so there's a lot of really interesting there's a lot of really interesting there's a lot of really interesting Explorations about Explorations about Explorations about paradoxes around black holes and all paradoxes around black holes and all paradoxes around black holes and all this kind of stuff above black holes this kind of stuff above black holes this kind of stuff above black holes destroying information destroying information destroying information do those worlds intermixed to you when do those worlds intermixed to you when do those worlds intermixed to you when you especially when you step away from you especially when you step away from you especially when you step away from your work and kind of think about the your work and kind of think about the your work and kind of think about the mystery of it all mystery of it all mystery of it all um well at first um well at first um well at first adversely much crosstalk personally I mostly observe Stars so I personally I mostly observe Stars so I don't usually actually think too much of don't usually actually think too much of don't usually actually think too much of black holes about black holes and stars black holes about black holes and stars black holes about black holes and stars is a fundamental kind of chemical is a fundamental kind of chemical is a fundamental kind of chemical physical phenomena that doesn't that's physical phenomena that doesn't that's physical phenomena that doesn't that's right the physics is kind of different right the physics is kind of different right the physics is kind of different it's not extreme yeah um I mean you know it's not extreme yeah um I mean you know it's not extreme yeah um I mean you know you could consider a nuclear fusion sort you could consider a nuclear fusion sort you could consider a nuclear fusion sort of be perhaps extreme you need to tunnel of be perhaps extreme you need to tunnel of be perhaps extreme you need to tunnel there's some interesting physics there there's some interesting physics there there's some interesting physics there yeah but it's it's just a different yeah but it's it's just a different yeah but it's it's just a different flavor and I don't I don't do these flavor and I don't I don't do these flavor and I don't I don't do these kinds of calculations myself either kinds of calculations myself either kinds of calculations myself either um um um I I very much like to talk with my

I I very much like to talk with my I I very much like to talk with my theory colleagues about these things theory colleagues about these things theory colleagues about these things though because I find there's always an though because I find there's always an though because I find there's always an interesting intersection and interesting intersection and interesting intersection and often it's it's just I've written a often it's it's just I've written a often it's it's just I've written a number of um papers with colleagues who number of um papers with colleagues who number of um papers with colleagues who do like simulations about galaxies and do like simulations about galaxies and do like simulations about galaxies and so they're they're not quite as far so they're they're not quite as far so they're they're not quite as far removed as let's say the the black hole removed as let's say the the black hole removed as let's say the the black hole you know pen and paper folks but um even you know pen and paper folks but um even you know pen and paper folks but um even in those cases we had the same interests in those cases we had the same interests in those cases we had the same interests in the same topics but it was almost in the same topics but it was almost in the same topics but it was almost like we're speaking two different like we're speaking two different like we're speaking two different languages and we weren't even that far languages and we weren't even that far languages and we weren't even that far removed you know both astronomers and removed you know both astronomers and removed you know both astronomers and all all all um and it was really interesting just to um and it was really interesting just to um and it was really interesting just to take that time and really try to take that time and really try to take that time and really try to to talk to each other to talk to each other to talk to each other and it's it's amazing how and it's it's amazing how and it's it's amazing how how hard that is how hard that is how hard that is you know even amongst scientists we you know even amongst scientists we you know even amongst scientists we already have trouble talking to each already have trouble talking to each already have trouble talking to each other imagine how hard it is to talk to other imagine how hard it is to talk to other imagine how hard it is to talk to non-scientists and other people to try non-scientists and other people to try non-scientists and other people to try you know to you know to you know to we're all interested in the same things we're all interested in the same things we're all interested in the same things as humans at the end of the day right as humans at the end of the day right as humans at the end of the day right but everyone has sort of a different but everyone has sort of a different but everyone has sort of a different angle about it and different questions angle about it and different questions angle about it and different questions and way of formulating things and and way of formulating things and and way of formulating things and sometimes really takes a while to to sometimes really takes a while to to sometimes really takes a while to to converge and to to get you know to the converge and to to get you know to the converge and to to get you know to the common ground but if you take the time common ground but if you take the time common ground but if you take the time it's so interesting to participate in it's so interesting to participate in it's so interesting to participate in that process and it feels so good in the that process and it feels so good in the that process and it feels so good in the end to say like yes we tackled this end to say like yes we tackled this end to say like yes we tackled this together right we overcame our our together right we overcame our our together right we overcame our our differences not not so much in opinion differences not not so much in opinion differences not not so much in opinion but just in expressing ourselves about but just in expressing ourselves about but just in expressing ourselves about this and how we go about solving a this and how we go about solving a this and how we go about solving a problem and these were some of my most

problem and these were some of my most problem and these were some of my most successful papers and I certainly successful papers and I certainly successful papers and I certainly enjoyed them the most it could also lead enjoyed them the most it could also lead enjoyed them the most it could also lead to Big discoveries I mean there's a I to Big discoveries I mean there's a I to Big discoveries I mean there's a I think you put it really well in saying think you put it really well in saying think you put it really well in saying that we're all kind of studying the same that we're all kind of studying the same that we're all kind of studying the same kind of mysteries and problems I mean I kind of mysteries and problems I mean I kind of mysteries and problems I mean I see this in the space of artificial see this in the space of artificial see this in the space of artificial intelligence you have a community maybe intelligence you have a community maybe intelligence you have a community maybe it seems very far away artificial it seems very far away artificial it seems very far away artificial intelligence and Neuroscience intelligence and Neuroscience intelligence and Neuroscience you know you would think that they're you know you would think that they're you know you would think that they're studying very different things but one studying very different things but one studying very different things but one is trying to engineer intelligence is trying to engineer intelligence is trying to engineer intelligence and in so doing try to understand and in so doing try to understand and in so doing try to understand intelligence and the other is trying to intelligence and the other is trying to intelligence and the other is trying to understand intelligence and cognition in understand intelligence and cognition in understand intelligence and cognition in the human mind and they're just doing it the human mind and they're just doing it the human mind and they're just doing it from a different set of data a different from a different set of data a different from a different set of data a different set of backgrounds and the researchers set of backgrounds and the researchers set of backgrounds and the researchers that do that kind of work and probably that do that kind of work and probably that do that kind of work and probably the same is true in um the same is true in um the same is true in um observational cosmology and simulation observational cosmology and simulation observational cosmology and simulation so it's a it's a it's like a so it's a it's a it's like a so it's a it's a it's like a fundamentally different approach to fundamentally different approach to fundamentally different approach to understanding the universe understanding the universe understanding the universe let me use for simulation let me use let me use for simulation let me use let me use for simulation let me use the things I know to create a bunch of the things I know to create a bunch of the things I know to create a bunch of parameters and create some parameters and create some parameters and create some just play with it play with the universe just play with it play with the universe just play with it play with the universe play God create create a bunch of play God create create a bunch of play God create create a bunch of universes and see in a way that matches universes and see in a way that matches universes and see in a way that matches experimental data as a as a fun it's experimental data as a as a fun it's experimental data as a as a fun it's like playing Sims but at the cosmic like playing Sims but at the cosmic like playing Sims but at the cosmic level yeah so but and then probably the level yeah so but and then probably the level yeah so but and then probably the set of terminology used there is very set of terminology used there is very set of terminology used there is very different and uh maybe you're allowed to different and uh maybe you're allowed to different and uh maybe you're allowed to break the rules a little bit more let's break the rules a little bit more let's break the rules a little bit more let's have you know yeah take the Drake have you know yeah take the Drake have you know yeah take the Drake equation yeah you don't really know you equation yeah you don't really know you equation yeah you don't really know you kind of come up with a bunch of values kind of come up with a bunch of values kind of come up with a bunch of values here and there and and just see how it

here and there and and just see how it here and there and and just see how it evolves and from that kind of into it evolves and from that kind of into it evolves and from that kind of into it the different possibilities the Dynamics the different possibilities the Dynamics the different possibilities the Dynamics of the evolution of a galaxy for example of the evolution of a galaxy for example of the evolution of a galaxy for example yeah but it's cool to play between those yeah but it's cool to play between those yeah but it's cool to play between those two because we it seems like we two because we it seems like we two because we it seems like we understand so little about our Cosmos so understand so little about our Cosmos so understand so little about our Cosmos so it's good to play yes it's like a big it's good to play yes it's like a big it's good to play yes it's like a big sandbox right and everyone kind of has sandbox right and everyone kind of has sandbox right and everyone kind of has that little corner and they do things that little corner and they do things that little corner and they do things but we're all in the same sandbox but we're all in the same sandbox but we're all in the same sandbox together at the end of the day but in together at the end of the day but in together at the end of the day but in that sandbox does have super powerful that sandbox does have super powerful that sandbox does have super powerful and super expensive telescopes that and super expensive telescopes that and super expensive telescopes that everybody's also all the children are everybody's also all the children are everybody's also all the children are fighting for the resources to to make fighting for the resources to to make fighting for the resources to to make sure they guess get to ask the right sure they guess get to ask the right sure they guess get to ask the right questions using that uh big cool tool questions using that uh big cool tool questions using that uh big cool tool well can we actually step back on the well can we actually step back on the well can we actually step back on the the The Big Field of Stellar archeology the The Big Field of Stellar archeology the The Big Field of Stellar archeology uh what is this process can you just uh what is this process can you just uh what is this process can you just speak to it again you've been speaking speak to it again you've been speaking speak to it again you've been speaking to it but what what is this process of to it but what what is this process of to it but what what is this process of archeology in the cosmos yeah it's uh archeology in the cosmos yeah it's uh archeology in the cosmos yeah it's uh it's it's really fascinating so it's it's really fascinating so it's it's really fascinating so um I mentioned the the lesser the mass um I mentioned the the lesser the mass um I mentioned the the lesser the mass of the star the longer it lives yes of the star the longer it lives yes of the star the longer it lives yes yes and again for reference yes and again for reference yes and again for reference um for the next dinner party the son's um for the next dinner party the son's um for the next dinner party the son's lifetime is 10 billion years so if you lifetime is 10 billion years so if you lifetime is 10 billion years so if you have a star that's 0.6 or 0.8 solar have a star that's 0.6 or 0.8 solar have a star that's 0.6 or 0.8 solar masses then its lifetime is going to be masses then its lifetime is going to be masses then its lifetime is going to be 15 to 20 billion years 15 to 20 billion years 15 to 20 billion years and that's that's an important range for and that's that's an important range for and that's that's an important range for our conversation because even if you our conversation because even if you our conversation because even if you assume that such a small star formed assume that such a small star formed assume that such a small star formed soon after the big bang then it is still soon after the big bang then it is still soon after the big bang then it is still observable today you mentioned old light observable today you mentioned old light observable today you mentioned old light before yeah that light is like a few

before yeah that light is like a few before yeah that light is like a few thousand years old but compared to the thousand years old but compared to the thousand years old but compared to the age of these stars is nothing age of these stars is nothing age of these stars is nothing so to me that's Young so to me that's Young so to me that's Young oh it comes straight from from our oh it comes straight from from our oh it comes straight from from our galaxy or you know it's not far these galaxy or you know it's not far these galaxy or you know it's not far these stars are not far away they're in our stars are not far away they're in our stars are not far away they're in our galaxy galaxy galaxy in the outskirts they probably did not in the outskirts they probably did not in the outskirts they probably did not form in the galaxy form in the galaxy form in the galaxy because again hierarchical assembly of a because again hierarchical assembly of a because again hierarchical assembly of a Milky Way Bend exactly they're formed in Milky Way Bend exactly they're formed in Milky Way Bend exactly they're formed in a little other galaxy in the vicinity a little other galaxy in the vicinity a little other galaxy in the vicinity and at some point the Milky Way ate that and at some point the Milky Way ate that and at some point the Milky Way ate that which means it absorbed all the stars which means it absorbed all the stars which means it absorbed all the stars including you know these little old including you know these little old including you know these little old stars that are now on the outskirts of stars that are now on the outskirts of stars that are now on the outskirts of the Milky Way That I Used to point my the Milky Way That I Used to point my the Milky Way That I Used to point my telescope to telescope to telescope to so so so what can we learn from these Stars why what can we learn from these Stars why what can we learn from these Stars why should we study them now these little should we study them now these little should we study them now these little stars are really really efficient stars are really really efficient stars are really really efficient um with their energy consumption they um with their energy consumption they um with their energy consumption they are still burning for the experts just are still burning for the experts just are still burning for the experts just burning hydrogen to helium in their burning hydrogen to helium in their burning hydrogen to helium in their cores and they have done so for the past cores and they have done so for the past cores and they have done so for the past 12 13 billion years however all they are 12 13 billion years however all they are 12 13 billion years however all they are and they're going to keep doing that for and they're going to keep doing that for and they're going to keep doing that for another few billion years same as the another few billion years same as the another few billion years same as the sun the same Sun also just does hydrogen sun the same Sun also just does hydrogen sun the same Sun also just does hydrogen helium burning and we'll continue that helium burning and we'll continue that helium burning and we'll continue that for a while for a while for a while which means the outer parts of the star which means the outer parts of the star which means the outer parts of the star well pretty much actually most of the well pretty much actually most of the well pretty much actually most of the star that gas star that gas star that gas doesn't talk to the Core doesn't talk to the Core doesn't talk to the Core so so so whatever composition that that star has whatever composition that that star has whatever composition that that star has you know in in its outer layers you know in in its outer layers you know in in its outer layers is exactly the same as the gas

is exactly the same as the gas is exactly the same as the gas composition from which the star formed composition from which the star formed composition from which the star formed which means it has perfectly preserved which means it has perfectly preserved which means it has perfectly preserved that information from way back then all that information from way back then all that information from way back then all the way to the day and going forward the way to the day and going forward the way to the day and going forward so I'm a Stella archaeologist because I so I'm a Stella archaeologist because I so I'm a Stella archaeologist because I don't dig in the dirt to find remnants don't dig in the dirt to find remnants don't dig in the dirt to find remnants of past civilizations and and whatnot of past civilizations and and whatnot of past civilizations and and whatnot I dig for the staff or the old stars in I dig for the staff or the old stars in I dig for the staff or the old stars in the sky because they have preserved that the sky because they have preserved that the sky because they have preserved that information from this first billion year information from this first billion year information from this first billion year uh years uh years uh years um in their in their outer Stellar um in their in their outer Stellar um in their in their outer Stellar atmosphere which is what I'm observing atmosphere which is what I'm observing atmosphere which is what I'm observing with telescopes so I'm getting the best with telescopes so I'm getting the best with telescopes so I'm getting the best look at the chemical composition early look at the chemical composition early look at the chemical composition early on on on that you could possibly wish for what that you could possibly wish for what that you could possibly wish for what kind of age are we talking about here or kind of age are we talking about here or kind of age are we talking about here or talking about talking about talking about something that's close to that you know something that's close to that you know something that's close to that you know like a 13 billion 12 13 billion age like a 13 billion 12 13 billion age like a 13 billion 12 13 billion age range that's what we what we think now range that's what we what we think now range that's what we what we think now it has a small caveat here we can not it has a small caveat here we can not it has a small caveat here we can not accurately date these tasks but we use a accurately date these tasks but we use a accurately date these tasks but we use a trick to say oh these tests must have trick to say oh these tests must have trick to say oh these tests must have formed as some of the earliest formed as some of the earliest formed as some of the earliest generations of stars because we need to generations of stars because we need to generations of stars because we need to talk about the chemical evolution of the talk about the chemical evolution of the talk about the chemical evolution of the universe and the Milky Way for a second universe and the Milky Way for a second universe and the Milky Way for a second so already mentioned the so already mentioned the so already mentioned the uh the pristineness of of the universe uh the pristineness of of the universe uh the pristineness of of the universe after the big bang right just hydrogen after the big bang right just hydrogen after the big bang right just hydrogen and helium then the first stars formed and helium then the first stars formed and helium then the first stars formed they produced a Sprinkle of heavier they produced a Sprinkle of heavier they produced a Sprinkle of heavier elements up to iron than the next

elements up to iron than the next elements up to iron than the next generation of stars formed that included generation of stars formed that included generation of stars formed that included again massive stars that they would again massive stars that they would again massive stars that they would explode again but also the little ones explode again but also the little ones explode again but also the little ones that keep on living right so and then that keep on living right so and then that keep on living right so and then the massive ones again exploded the massive ones again exploded the massive ones again exploded Supernova so they provide again another Supernova so they provide again another Supernova so they provide again another sprinkle of heavier elements and so over sprinkle of heavier elements and so over sprinkle of heavier elements and so over time all the elements in the periodic time all the elements in the periodic time all the elements in the periodic table have been built up there have been table have been built up there have been table have been built up there have been other processes for example neutron star other processes for example neutron star other processes for example neutron star mergers and other exotic supernovae that mergers and other exotic supernovae that mergers and other exotic supernovae that have provided elements heavier than iron have provided elements heavier than iron have provided elements heavier than iron all the way up to uranium from Fair all the way up to uranium from Fair all the way up to uranium from Fair early on we're still trying to figure early on we're still trying to figure early on we're still trying to figure out those details but out those details but out those details but I always say pretty much all the I always say pretty much all the I always say pretty much all the elements were done from like day three elements were done from like day three elements were done from like day three so iron is where like once you get to so iron is where like once you get to so iron is where like once you get to iron you got all the fun you need iron you got all the fun you need iron you got all the fun you need most of the fun most of the fun most of the fun yes I know yes I know yes I know uh I I really like the heavier elements uh I I really like the heavier elements uh I I really like the heavier elements you know gold silver Platinum that kind you know gold silver Platinum that kind you know gold silver Platinum that kind of stuff of stuff of stuff for person reasons they're for Star for person reasons they're for Star for person reasons they're for Star formation well both okay formation well both okay formation well both okay I mean like what's the importance of I mean like what's the importance of I mean like what's the importance of these heavier Metals in uh in the these heavier Metals in uh in the these heavier Metals in uh in the evolution of the Stars every Supernova gives you elements up to every Supernova gives you elements up to iron that's cool but at some point it iron that's cool but at some point it iron that's cool but at some point it gets a little bit boring because that gets a little bit boring because that gets a little bit boring because that always works but that's the Baseline we always works but that's the Baseline we always works but that's the Baseline we need that need that need that um and that's certainly what came out of um and that's certainly what came out of um and that's certainly what came out of the first stars and then all the other the first stars and then all the other the first stars and then all the other Supernova explosions that you know

Supernova explosions that you know Supernova explosions that you know followed with every generation and it followed with every generation and it followed with every generation and it took about a thousand Generations give took about a thousand Generations give took about a thousand Generations give or take until the sun was made so the or take until the sun was made so the or take until the sun was made so the sun formed from a gas cloud that was sun formed from a gas cloud that was sun formed from a gas cloud that was enriched by roughly a thousand enriched by roughly a thousand enriched by roughly a thousand generations of supernova explosions generations of supernova explosions generations of supernova explosions and that's why the sun has its its and that's why the sun has its its and that's why the sun has its its chemical the chemical composition that chemical the chemical composition that chemical the chemical composition that it has including you know and somehow it has including you know and somehow it has including you know and somehow the planets were were made from that as the planets were were made from that as the planets were were made from that as well so the Supernova explosions the well so the Supernova explosions the well so the Supernova explosions the many generations are creating more and many generations are creating more and many generations are creating more and more complex more complex more complex elements no it just goes all the way up elements no it just goes all the way up elements no it just goes all the way up to iron yeah and then it's just it's a to iron yeah and then it's just it's a to iron yeah and then it's just it's a little bit more of of all of these little bit more of of all of these little bit more of of all of these elements just more yeah just yeah it's elements just more yeah just yeah it's elements just more yeah just yeah it's one sprinkle then another and it just one sprinkle then another and it just one sprinkle then another and it just kind of adds up right now the heavy kind of adds up right now the heavy kind of adds up right now the heavy elements form in very different ways elements form in very different ways elements form in very different ways they are not Fusion made they are made they are not Fusion made they are made they are not Fusion made they are made typically through Neutron capture typically through Neutron capture typically through Neutron capture processes but for that you need seed processes but for that you need seed processes but for that you need seed nuclei nuclei nuclei ideally you know iron or carbon or ideally you know iron or carbon or ideally you know iron or carbon or something so the Supernova made elements something so the Supernova made elements something so the Supernova made elements are a very good seed nuclear for other are a very good seed nuclear for other are a very good seed nuclear for other processes that then create heavy processes that then create heavy processes that then create heavy elements and because they cannot be made elements and because they cannot be made elements and because they cannot be made everywhere they when you when you know everywhere they when you when you know everywhere they when you when you know so I my sum of my stars have huge so I my sum of my stars have huge so I my sum of my stars have huge amounts of these heavy elements in them amounts of these heavy elements in them amounts of these heavy elements in them and they tell us and they tell us and they tell us in much more detail in much more detail in much more detail something really interesting happened something really interesting happened something really interesting happened somewhere well wait I thought I thought somewhere well wait I thought I thought somewhere well wait I thought I thought the really old ones we would not have so the really old ones we would not have so the really old ones we would not have so what does that mean if if the old yes what does that mean if if the old yes what does that mean if if the old yes important clarification important clarification important clarification um so um so um so the stars that we are observing today the stars that we are observing today the stars that we are observing today these old ones they formed from the gas

these old ones they formed from the gas these old ones they formed from the gas and the question is what enriched that and the question is what enriched that and the question is what enriched that gas ah so it could have been just a gas ah so it could have been just a gas ah so it could have been just a first star dumping their elements into first star dumping their elements into first star dumping their elements into that gas all the way up to iron and we have found some stars that we and we have found some stars that we think are second generation Stars so think are second generation Stars so think are second generation Stars so they form from gas enriched by just one they form from gas enriched by just one they form from gas enriched by just one first star that's super cool yeah first star that's super cool yeah first star that's super cool yeah then we find other old stars that have a then we find other old stars that have a then we find other old stars that have a much more complicated much more complicated much more complicated um heavy element signature and that um heavy element signature and that um heavy element signature and that means okay they are probably formed in a means okay they are probably formed in a means okay they are probably formed in a gas cloud gas cloud gas cloud that had a few things going on that had a few things going on that had a few things going on such as maybe a first star maybe another such as maybe a first star maybe another such as maybe a first star maybe another more normal Supernova and maybe more normal Supernova and maybe more normal Supernova and maybe some kind of special process like a some kind of special process like a some kind of special process like a neutron star merger that would make neutron star merger that would make neutron star merger that would make heavy elements heavy elements heavy elements and so they created a local chemical and so they created a local chemical and so they created a local chemical signature from which the Next Generation signature from which the Next Generation signature from which the Next Generation star then formed star then formed star then formed and that is what we're observing today and that is what we're observing today and that is what we're observing today so all these old Stars basically carry so all these old Stars basically carry so all these old Stars basically carry the signature from all their this these the signature from all their this these the signature from all their this these progenitor events progenitor events progenitor events and it's it's our job then to unravel and it's it's our job then to unravel and it's it's our job then to unravel okay which processes and which events okay which processes and which events okay which processes and which events and how many you know may have occurred and how many you know may have occurred and how many you know may have occurred in the early universe that led to in the early universe that led to in the early universe that led to exactly that signature that we observed exactly that signature that we observed exactly that signature that we observed 13 billion years later is it possible to 13 billion years later is it possible to 13 billion years later is it possible to figure out like the number of figure out like the number of figure out like the number of generations that resulted in this generations that resulted in this generations that resulted in this um in these Stars well we can we we

um in these Stars well we can we we um in these Stars well we can we we think we can sort of say okay this was think we can sort of say okay this was think we can sort of say okay this was like second generation or third because like second generation or third because like second generation or third because the amounts of heavy elements in in the the amounts of heavy elements in in the the amounts of heavy elements in in the cells that we observe cells that we observe cells that we observe um is so tiny one Super One normal um is so tiny one Super One normal um is so tiny one Super One normal Supernova explosion is actually already Supernova explosion is actually already Supernova explosion is actually already basically too much it would give us too basically too much it would give us too basically too much it would give us too much of it and the thing is you can much of it and the thing is you can much of it and the thing is you can never take away things in the universe never take away things in the universe never take away things in the universe you can only add there's no Cosmic you can only add there's no Cosmic you can only add there's no Cosmic vacuum cleaner going around sucking vacuum cleaner going around sucking vacuum cleaner going around sucking things away things away things away the black holes are probably the closest the black holes are probably the closest the black holes are probably the closest to that but they would have taken the to that but they would have taken the to that but they would have taken the whole stop yeah they'd take the whole whole stop yeah they'd take the whole whole stop yeah they'd take the whole thing not just they wouldn't take up thing not just they wouldn't take up thing not just they wouldn't take up stuff out of the gas you know stuff out of the gas you know stuff out of the gas you know um so we have a um so we have a um so we have a maybe 10 stars or so now where we where maybe 10 stars or so now where we where maybe 10 stars or so now where we where we are saying they're contained so we are saying they're contained so we are saying they're contained so little of these heavy elements that little of these heavy elements that little of these heavy elements that there must be second generation because there must be second generation because there must be second generation because how else would you have made them and how else would you have made them and how else would you have made them and again I wanna I wanna stress that the again I wanna I wanna stress that the again I wanna I wanna stress that the elements that we observe in these stars elements that we observe in these stars elements that we observe in these stars were not made by the Stars themselves were not made by the Stars themselves were not made by the Stars themselves that we observe they that's just a that we observe they that's just a that we observe they that's just a reflection of the gas cloud so we don't reflection of the gas cloud so we don't reflection of the gas cloud so we don't actually I had to say that because I actually I had to say that because I actually I had to say that because I love Stars we don't at the end of the love Stars we don't at the end of the love Stars we don't at the end of the day we don't really care for the stars day we don't really care for the stars day we don't really care for the stars that we're observing we care for the that we're observing we care for the that we're observing we care for the story that they're telling us about the story that they're telling us about the story that they're telling us about the early universe so yeah so the stars are early universe so yeah so the stars are early universe so yeah so the stars are kind of a small mirror yeah into the the kind of a small mirror yeah into the the kind of a small mirror yeah into the the the earlier yes yeah the earlier yes yeah the earlier yes yeah and so what are you detecting about and so what are you detecting about and so what are you detecting about those thoughts can you tell me about the those thoughts can you tell me about the those thoughts can you tell me about the process of archeology here like what process of archeology here like what process of archeology here like what kind of data can we possibly get to tell kind of data can we possibly get to tell kind of data can we possibly get to tell the story about

the story about the story about um these heavy elements on the Stars um these heavy elements on the Stars um these heavy elements on the Stars that depends really on that depends really on that depends really on um what store you find um what store you find um what store you find um there are many different chemical um there are many different chemical um there are many different chemical signatures signatures signatures um we actually pair up these days our um we actually pair up these days our um we actually pair up these days our our our our um our element signatures with also um our element signatures with also um our element signatures with also kinematic information how the star moves kinematic information how the star moves kinematic information how the star moves about the Galaxy that actually gives us about the Galaxy that actually gives us about the Galaxy that actually gives us Clues Clues Clues um as to where the star might have come um as to where the star might have come um as to where the star might have come from because again all these old stars from because again all these old stars from because again all these old stars in the galaxy but they are not off the in the galaxy but they are not off the in the galaxy but they are not off the Galaxy that's a small but important Galaxy that's a small but important Galaxy that's a small but important distinction so they all came from distinction so they all came from distinction so they all came from somewhere else so you can rewind back in somewhere else so you can rewind back in somewhere else so you can rewind back in time to kind of estimate where it came time to kind of estimate where it came time to kind of estimate where it came from yeah so we can't really say oh it from yeah so we can't really say oh it from yeah so we can't really say oh it came from that and that dwarf Galaxy but came from that and that dwarf Galaxy but came from that and that dwarf Galaxy but interestingly enough so I'm just I just interestingly enough so I'm just I just interestingly enough so I'm just I just a few days ago I submitted a paper with a few days ago I submitted a paper with a few days ago I submitted a paper with three women undergrads it was so good to three women undergrads it was so good to three women undergrads it was so good to work together and we found a sample of work together and we found a sample of work together and we found a sample of stars that have very very low abundances stars that have very very low abundances stars that have very very low abundances in strontium and barium so very heavy in strontium and barium so very heavy in strontium and barium so very heavy elements elements elements and I had a hunch for a while that these and I had a hunch for a while that these and I had a hunch for a while that these Stars would probably be some of the Stars would probably be some of the Stars would probably be some of the oldest because oldest because oldest because as I said heavy elements give you extra as I said heavy elements give you extra as I said heavy elements give you extra information about special events information about special events information about special events and again finding something that's and again finding something that's and again finding something that's really low really low really low means it must have for it that must have means it must have for it that must have means it must have for it that must have happened either really early on or in a happened either really early on or in a happened either really early on or in a very special environment right because very special environment right because very special environment right because we can only ever add so if you find we can only ever add so if you find we can only ever add so if you find something that's that's incredibly low

something that's that's incredibly low something that's that's incredibly low in terms of the abundance it in terms of the abundance it in terms of the abundance it maybe just one event contributed that maybe just one event contributed that maybe just one event contributed that Max Max Max so so so we looked at the kinematics how are we looked at the kinematics how are we looked at the kinematics how are these Stars moving and they're all going these Stars moving and they're all going these Stars moving and they're all going the wrong way in the galaxy how how is that possible well it is how how is that possible well it is possible because consider now we come possible because consider now we come possible because consider now we come back to the Proto Galaxy the Proto back to the Proto Galaxy the Proto back to the Proto Galaxy the Proto Galaxy was like a beehive it just didn't Galaxy was like a beehive it just didn't Galaxy was like a beehive it just didn't really know what it was or what it really know what it was or what it really know what it was or what it wanted to become when I grew up wanted to become when I grew up wanted to become when I grew up so and it was absorbing all these little so and it was absorbing all these little so and it was absorbing all these little galaxies to grow fast galaxies to grow fast galaxies to grow fast some galaxies some absorbed galaxies some galaxies some absorbed galaxies some galaxies some absorbed galaxies were thrown in going the main way and were thrown in going the main way and were thrown in going the main way and some came in the wrong way huh happens some came in the wrong way huh happens some came in the wrong way huh happens it happens but this could only happen it happens but this could only happen it happens but this could only happen early on when you know there wasn't left early on when you know there wasn't left early on when you know there wasn't left and right and up and down and right and up and down and right and up and down so stuff would come in from always so so stuff would come in from always so so stuff would come in from always so now now now 13 billion years later we're still doing 13 billion years later we're still doing 13 billion years later we're still doing it yeah the a they're still doing it and it yeah the a they're still doing it and it yeah the a they're still doing it and B we just looked for stars that have low B we just looked for stars that have low B we just looked for stars that have low straw human barium abundances and then straw human barium abundances and then straw human barium abundances and then we look at the kinematics and lo and we look at the kinematics and lo and we look at the kinematics and lo and behold they are at hundreds of behold they are at hundreds of behold they are at hundreds of kilometers per second going the wrong kilometers per second going the wrong kilometers per second going the wrong way it's like dude you must have come in way it's like dude you must have come in way it's like dude you must have come in really early on from somewhere else so really early on from somewhere else so really early on from somewhere else so we call this retrograde motion that's a we call this retrograde motion that's a we call this retrograde motion that's a clear sign of accretion so something clear sign of accretion so something clear sign of accretion so something that has come in to the Galaxy and that has come in to the Galaxy and that has come in to the Galaxy and because they are so fast because they are so fast because they are so fast um and it's really all of them that that um and it's really all of them that that um and it's really all of them that that must have happened early on right you

must have happened early on right you must have happened early on right you can't throw a Galaxy into the Mickey can't throw a Galaxy into the Mickey can't throw a Galaxy into the Mickey right now the wrong way it eventually right now the wrong way it eventually right now the wrong way it eventually will turn around can you actually just a will turn around can you actually just a will turn around can you actually just a small tangent speak to the the three small tangent speak to the the three small tangent speak to the the three women undergrads like this little it's women undergrads like this little it's women undergrads like this little it's pretty cool that you were able to pretty cool that you were able to pretty cool that you were able to um um um use a hunch to find this really cool use a hunch to find this really cool use a hunch to find this really cool little star little star little star um yeah what's the process of like um yeah what's the process of like um yeah what's the process of like especially with undergrads I think that especially with undergrads I think that especially with undergrads I think that would be very interesting and inspiring would be very interesting and inspiring would be very interesting and inspiring to people yes it was a wonderful little to people yes it was a wonderful little to people yes it was a wonderful little collaboration that actually emerged in collaboration that actually emerged in collaboration that actually emerged in the fall the fall the fall um I um I um I so I like I really like working with so I like I really like working with so I like I really like working with with undergrads and grad students with undergrads and grad students with undergrads and grad students postdocs postdocs postdocs um and I came up with a New Concept for um and I came up with a New Concept for um and I came up with a New Concept for a class at MIT where I wanted to a class at MIT where I wanted to a class at MIT where I wanted to integrate the research process into the integrate the research process into the integrate the research process into the classroom because sometimes classroom because sometimes classroom because sometimes um people find it really hard to called um people find it really hard to called um people find it really hard to called email a professor hey you know this is email a professor hey you know this is email a professor hey you know this is I'm this and that person and I'm I'm this and that person and I'm I'm this and that person and I'm interested in your research could I interested in your research could I interested in your research could I possibly you know come yes and um I possibly you know come yes and um I possibly you know come yes and um I wanted to to streamline that and give uh wanted to to streamline that and give uh wanted to to streamline that and give uh and you know just trial how it would and you know just trial how it would and you know just trial how it would work to provide a sort of a safe work to provide a sort of a safe work to provide a sort of a safe confines of a classroom where you just confines of a classroom where you just confines of a classroom where you just sign up and do research in a very sign up and do research in a very sign up and do research in a very structured way structured way structured way and uh I developed it was a lot of work and uh I developed it was a lot of work and uh I developed it was a lot of work a little bit more than I thought to map a little bit more than I thought to map a little bit more than I thought to map up an entire research project basically up an entire research project basically up an entire research project basically from scratch in 10 worksheets so that from scratch in 10 worksheets so that from scratch in 10 worksheets so that they could do it again in a very

they could do it again in a very they could do it again in a very structured and organized fashion created structured and organized fashion created structured and organized fashion created this whole framework for it for them to this whole framework for it for them to this whole framework for it for them to do the whole thing do the whole thing do the whole thing um but the promise was um but the promise was um but the promise was you come sign up for my class in teams you come sign up for my class in teams you come sign up for my class in teams of two you each get your own old star of two you each get your own old star of two you each get your own old star that has not been analyzed before I that has not been analyzed before I that has not been analyzed before I don't know what the solution is because don't know what the solution is because don't know what the solution is because in research we don't look up the in research we don't look up the in research we don't look up the solution at the end of the book we do solution at the end of the book we do solution at the end of the book we do not know what we're going to find our not know what we're going to find our not know what we're going to find our job is to do the work and then to job is to do the work and then to job is to do the work and then to interpret the numbers because our job as interpret the numbers because our job as interpret the numbers because our job as scientist is scientist is scientist is to find the story anyone can crunch to find the story anyone can crunch to find the story anyone can crunch numbers numbers numbers anyone anyone anyone it's it defines complicated sometimes it's it defines complicated sometimes it's it defines complicated sometimes but it's doable right yes but coming up but it's doable right yes but coming up but it's doable right yes but coming up with a story when you only have three with a story when you only have three with a story when you only have three puzzle pieces what does the puzzle look puzzle pieces what does the puzzle look puzzle pieces what does the puzzle look like like like that you have to be a little bit bold that you have to be a little bit bold that you have to be a little bit bold you need to have some experience you need to have some experience you need to have some experience and you need to you need to kind of see and you need to you need to kind of see and you need to you need to kind of see the universe in 3D you just need to kind the universe in 3D you just need to kind the universe in 3D you just need to kind of go for it and that's the beautiful of go for it and that's the beautiful of go for it and that's the beautiful thing I really love that and so this was thing I really love that and so this was thing I really love that and so this was a story of weird kinematics going the a story of weird kinematics going the a story of weird kinematics going the wrong way combined with this particular wrong way combined with this particular wrong way combined with this particular weird signature in terms of the elements weird signature in terms of the elements weird signature in terms of the elements exactly and you have to come up with a exactly and you have to come up with a exactly and you have to come up with a story yeah and so the story of that story yeah and so the story of that story yeah and so the story of that paper is now usually I don't say I find paper is now usually I don't say I find paper is now usually I don't say I find the older stars you know when I talk to the older stars you know when I talk to the older stars you know when I talk to my research colleagues I I talk to them my research colleagues I I talk to them my research colleagues I I talk to them about we find the chemically most about we find the chemically most about we find the chemically most pristine stars because that's actually pristine stars because that's actually pristine stars because that's actually what we measure the chemical abundance what we measure the chemical abundance what we measure the chemical abundance that tells us okay it must have been that tells us okay it must have been that tells us okay it must have been second or third or fifth generation of

second or third or fifth generation of second or third or fifth generation of stars right but these low strong theme stars right but these low strong theme stars right but these low strong theme stars that go in the wrong way like stars that go in the wrong way like stars that go in the wrong way like they're getting paid for it they must be they're getting paid for it they must be they're getting paid for it they must be the oldest stars that came into the the oldest stars that came into the the oldest stars that came into the Galaxy because they formed before the Galaxy because they formed before the Galaxy because they formed before the Galaxy Galaxy Galaxy was the Mickey way right and this is so was the Mickey way right and this is so was the Mickey way right and this is so cool and it was so wonderful so this cool and it was so wonderful so this cool and it was so wonderful so this class it it went so well in the fall I class it it went so well in the fall I class it it went so well in the fall I had nine people sign up that's not had nine people sign up that's not had nine people sign up that's not unusual for for classic specialty class unusual for for classic specialty class unusual for for classic specialty class at MIT so small number it was eight at MIT so small number it was eight at MIT so small number it was eight women and they were so into it that I women and they were so into it that I women and they were so into it that I said okay said okay said okay let's use this opportunity you're gonna let's use this opportunity you're gonna let's use this opportunity you're gonna do some extra work with me do some extra work with me do some extra work with me and we're going to publish this try to and we're going to publish this try to and we're going to publish this try to publish yes I also like that publish yes I also like that publish yes I also like that um you're using the terminology of um you're using the terminology of um you're using the terminology of chemically more pristine when I'm chemically more pristine when I'm chemically more pristine when I'm talking to younger people I'll just say talking to younger people I'll just say talking to younger people I'll just say that I'm more chemically pristine than that I'm more chemically pristine than that I'm more chemically pristine than them I like the description of age so them I like the description of age so them I like the description of age so there's this term of metal poor Stars so there's this term of metal poor Stars so there's this term of metal poor Stars so most of these old stars are going to be most of these old stars are going to be most of these old stars are going to be metal poor yes I I search for the most metal poor yes I I search for the most metal poor yes I I search for the most metal poor stars and what does that can metal poor stars and what does that can metal poor stars and what does that can we just Define yeah we just Define yeah we just Define yeah I don't know who came up with this I I don't know who came up with this I I don't know who came up with this I would I would love to know but um would I would love to know but um would I would love to know but um the universe is a complicated place so the universe is a complicated place so the universe is a complicated place so many decades ago someone clever came up many decades ago someone clever came up many decades ago someone clever came up with the idea to say with the idea to say with the idea to say let's simplify things a little bit let's let's simplify things a little bit let's let's simplify things a little bit let's call hydrogen X helium Y and all the call hydrogen X helium Y and all the call hydrogen X helium Y and all the other elements combine Metals Z other elements combine Metals Z other elements combine Metals Z [Laughter]

[Laughter] [Laughter] when I give public talks I always ask us when I give public talks I always ask us when I give public talks I always ask us is there a chemist in the audience is there a chemist in the audience is there a chemist in the audience let me just tell you neon is a wonderful let me just tell you neon is a wonderful let me just tell you neon is a wonderful metal and they're like oh my God what's metal and they're like oh my God what's metal and they're like oh my God what's he saying but I'm an astronomer I'm I'm he saying but I'm an astronomer I'm I'm he saying but I'm an astronomer I'm I'm not a chemistor I'll get away with it so not a chemistor I'll get away with it so not a chemistor I'll get away with it so if you just roll with it for a moment if you just roll with it for a moment if you just roll with it for a moment all the elements except hydrogen helium all the elements except hydrogen helium all the elements except hydrogen helium are called metals are called metals are called metals now if we look again at chemical or the now if we look again at chemical or the now if we look again at chemical or the concept of chemical Evolution it means concept of chemical Evolution it means concept of chemical Evolution it means more and more of all the elements more and more of all the elements more and more of all the elements everything heavier than hydrogen helium everything heavier than hydrogen helium everything heavier than hydrogen helium gets produced slowly but surely by gets produced slowly but surely by gets produced slowly but surely by different types of stores and events different types of stores and events different types of stores and events so that's a you know a monotonously so that's a you know a monotonously so that's a you know a monotonously increasing function increasing function increasing function um and so we look for the stars that um and so we look for the stars that um and so we look for the stars that have the least amounts of heavy elements have the least amounts of heavy elements have the least amounts of heavy elements in them in them in them because that means we are going further because that means we are going further because that means we are going further and further back in this process in that and further back in this process in that and further back in this process in that function function function almost all the way to the very beginning almost all the way to the very beginning almost all the way to the very beginning and that is the first Stars right they and that is the first Stars right they and that is the first Stars right they they started that that process that's they started that that process that's they started that that process that's why I said it was such an important why I said it was such an important why I said it was such an important transition phase because it things were transition phase because it things were transition phase because it things were we we call you know the the post big we we call you know the the post big we we call you know the the post big bang universe pristine just hydrant bang universe pristine just hydrant bang universe pristine just hydrant helium and after that the mess started helium and after that the mess started helium and after that the mess started if you soon as you add elements to it if you soon as you add elements to it if you soon as you add elements to it things kind of get a little out of hand things kind of get a little out of hand things kind of get a little out of hand that that's that ends in this beautiful that that's that ends in this beautiful that that's that ends in this beautiful variety that that we have everywhere variety that that we have everywhere variety that that we have everywhere these days yeah and you're looking at these days yeah and you're looking at these days yeah and you're looking at the very early days in the introduction the very early days in the introduction the very early days in the introduction of the variety yes exactly when it was

of the variety yes exactly when it was of the variety yes exactly when it was still a little bit more organizable still a little bit more organizable still a little bit more organizable um but the the variety of different um but the the variety of different um but the the variety of different types of metal poor stores we have a types of metal poor stores we have a types of metal poor stores we have a stark stark stark um many different types of stars many um many different types of stars many um many different types of stars many patterns we have sort of identified but patterns we have sort of identified but patterns we have sort of identified but they are so crazy ones out there that they are so crazy ones out there that they are so crazy ones out there that we're still trying to kind of fit in we're still trying to kind of fit in we're still trying to kind of fit in so what kind of stars have been so what kind of stars have been so what kind of stars have been discovered so you've uh already a while discovered so you've uh already a while discovered so you've uh already a while ago uh helped discover the star he ago uh helped discover the star he ago uh helped discover the star he 1 3 27 23 26 great name yes and I Chief 1 3 27 23 26 great name yes and I Chief 1 3 27 23 26 great name yes and I Chief 15230901 what can you say about these 15230901 what can you say about these 15230901 what can you say about these these stars and others that have been these stars and others that have been these stars and others that have been found I love them okay they're my baby found I love them okay they're my baby found I love them okay they're my baby Stars what do you call what do you call Stars what do you call what do you call Stars what do you call what do you call what do you call your your baby Stars what do you call your your baby Stars what do you call your your baby Stars well I'm probably the only one who can well I'm probably the only one who can well I'm probably the only one who can you know spit out these names without you know spit out these names without you know spit out these names without cheating there's nicknames are there cheating there's nicknames are there cheating there's nicknames are there well no that's that's that's not allowed well no that's that's that's not allowed well no that's that's that's not allowed okay uh well some colleagues at okay uh well some colleagues at okay uh well some colleagues at conferences have just called them anasta conferences have just called them anasta conferences have just called them anasta or Freebo staff because they they didn't or Freebo staff because they they didn't or Freebo staff because they they didn't want to learn the the phone number you want to learn the the phone number you want to learn the the phone number you know I I get it phone number yeah and know I I get it phone number yeah and know I I get it phone number yeah and these numbers are actually based on on these numbers are actually based on on these numbers are actually based on on older sets of coordinates for these older sets of coordinates for these older sets of coordinates for these Stars so they um yes the the minus in Stars so they um yes the the minus in Stars so they um yes the the minus in the middle means that they're in the the middle means that they're in the the middle means that they're in the southern hemisphere so negative is in southern hemisphere so negative is in southern hemisphere so negative is in the southern hemisphere positive the southern hemisphere positive the southern hemisphere positive and then uh 13 and 15 means that sort of and then uh 13 and 15 means that sort of and then uh 13 and 15 means that sort of observable in the middle of the Year observable in the middle of the Year observable in the middle of the Year okay so that's the deal with the okay so that's the deal with the okay so that's the deal with the observation and where it was observed observation and where it was observed observation and where it was observed yes yes but um have very different yes yes but um have very different yes yes but um have very different stores both absolutely significant

stores both absolutely significant stores both absolutely significant career defining actually for for me but career defining actually for for me but career defining actually for for me but really pushed pushed the envelope in in really pushed pushed the envelope in in really pushed pushed the envelope in in very different ways so 80 1327 of the very different ways so 80 1327 of the very different ways so 80 1327 of the first one that you mentioned that was first one that you mentioned that was first one that you mentioned that was the second second generation star that the second second generation star that the second second generation star that we found and you know usually people say we found and you know usually people say we found and you know usually people say like oh the first one is the big one and like oh the first one is the big one and like oh the first one is the big one and the rest is nobody cares but to us it the rest is nobody cares but to us it the rest is nobody cares but to us it proved that yes we can do it because one proved that yes we can do it because one proved that yes we can do it because one astronomers live in a sort of way of you astronomers live in a sort of way of you astronomers live in a sort of way of you know there are a lot of serendipitous know there are a lot of serendipitous know there are a lot of serendipitous discoveries and we discoveries and we discoveries and we that's really great but we need to show that's really great but we need to show that's really great but we need to show that we can do it again reliably because that we can do it again reliably because that we can do it again reliably because then then we're on to something it's not then then we're on to something it's not then then we're on to something it's not just some kind of weird Quirk and there just some kind of weird Quirk and there just some kind of weird Quirk and there are a lot of quirks in the universe but are a lot of quirks in the universe but are a lot of quirks in the universe but we want to know is is that a real thing we want to know is is that a real thing we want to know is is that a real thing does that happen regularly is there does that happen regularly is there does that happen regularly is there something that we can learn right is something that we can learn right is something that we can learn right is that a piece of the story that a piece of the story that a piece of the story and so finding the second one that was and so finding the second one that was and so finding the second one that was even a little bit more extreme than the even a little bit more extreme than the even a little bit more extreme than the first one really showed yes our search first one really showed yes our search first one really showed yes our search techniques work we can find these Stars techniques work we can find these Stars techniques work we can find these Stars they provide an important part to the they provide an important part to the they provide an important part to the story story story in the sense that in the sense that in the sense that if we had more than two stars and by now if we had more than two stars and by now if we had more than two stars and by now we have about 10-ish or so we have about 10-ish or so we have about 10-ish or so what do they tell us about the nature of what do they tell us about the nature of what do they tell us about the nature of the very first Stars the very first Stars the very first Stars and what we found and what we found and what we found um again working with a theorists of um again working with a theorists of um again working with a theorists of course who run these Supernova models course who run these Supernova models course who run these Supernova models is that so actually let me let me before

is that so actually let me let me before is that so actually let me let me before I get into this these two stars had huge I get into this these two stars had huge I get into this these two stars had huge amounts of carbon relative to iron so we amounts of carbon relative to iron so we amounts of carbon relative to iron so we usually use iron as a reference element usually use iron as a reference element usually use iron as a reference element for what we call the metallicity so the for what we call the metallicity so the for what we call the metallicity so the overall metal content the overall amount overall metal content the overall amount overall metal content the overall amount of heavy elements in it so that's why of heavy elements in it so that's why of heavy elements in it so that's why it's called iron deficiency that's right it's called iron deficiency that's right it's called iron deficiency that's right so this does an incredibly iron so this does an incredibly iron so this does an incredibly iron deficient which means there must be of deficient which means there must be of deficient which means there must be of the second generation because the second generation because the second generation because there was and interestingly enough there was and interestingly enough there was and interestingly enough there was this discrepancy there was this discrepancy there was this discrepancy a normal Supernova until then we thought a normal Supernova until then we thought a normal Supernova until then we thought would get us so much iron would get us so much iron would get us so much iron you know you would distribute that in you know you would distribute that in you know you would distribute that in the gas cloud and then you would form the gas cloud and then you would form the gas cloud and then you would form this little star that we're observing this little star that we're observing this little star that we're observing but the iron abundance that we measured but the iron abundance that we measured but the iron abundance that we measured was actually much lower than that and I was actually much lower than that and I was actually much lower than that and I already mentioned you can't take things already mentioned you can't take things already mentioned you can't take things away that must mean these early massive away that must mean these early massive away that must mean these early massive pop three we call them population three pop three we call them population three pop three we call them population three the first Stars the first Stars the first Stars they must have exploded in a different they must have exploded in a different they must have exploded in a different way than we previously thought they way than we previously thought they way than we previously thought they can't output as much iron because can't output as much iron because can't output as much iron because they just can't otherwise it wouldn't they just can't otherwise it wouldn't they just can't otherwise it wouldn't match our observations got it and so match our observations got it and so match our observations got it and so that's when we started to work with uh that's when we started to work with uh that's when we started to work with uh several Theory groups several Theory groups several Theory groups on on supernova yields so what comes out on on supernova yields so what comes out on on supernova yields so what comes out of from the explosion of the Supernova of from the explosion of the Supernova of from the explosion of the Supernova that's called Supernova yields and so that's called Supernova yields and so that's called Supernova yields and so this one was not yielding much iron well this one was not yielding much iron well this one was not yielding much iron well we needed to concoct a theoretical

we needed to concoct a theoretical we needed to concoct a theoretical Supernova that made less Supernova that made less Supernova that made less and it's actually surprisingly difficult and it's actually surprisingly difficult and it's actually surprisingly difficult because you can always add more in the because you can always add more in the because you can always add more in the universe right but you can't take stuff universe right but you can't take stuff universe right but you can't take stuff away so Japanese colleagues kind of came away so Japanese colleagues kind of came away so Japanese colleagues kind of came up with the idea of a fainter Supernova up with the idea of a fainter Supernova up with the idea of a fainter Supernova that just doesn't have a much is enough that just doesn't have a much is enough that just doesn't have a much is enough oomph you know when it explodes so oomph you know when it explodes so oomph you know when it explodes so somehow there's there's less iron coming somehow there's there's less iron coming somehow there's there's less iron coming out but at the same time then these out but at the same time then these out but at the same time then these Stars showed huge over bonuses of carbon Stars showed huge over bonuses of carbon Stars showed huge over bonuses of carbon you know a thousand times more carbon you know a thousand times more carbon you know a thousand times more carbon so how do you now get a thousand times so how do you now get a thousand times so how do you now get a thousand times more carbon out of these poor first more carbon out of these poor first more carbon out of these poor first supernovia that was the theoretical supernovia that was the theoretical supernovia that was the theoretical Challenge and because we didn't have Challenge and because we didn't have Challenge and because we didn't have just one star but two um that really spurred the field to um that really spurred the field to think about what was the nature of the think about what was the nature of the think about what was the nature of the first Stars how did they explode what first Stars how did they explode what first Stars how did they explode what what are the implications because if what are the implications because if what are the implications because if they are not as as luminous and bright they are not as as luminous and bright they are not as as luminous and bright and energetic that has consequences for and energetic that has consequences for and energetic that has consequences for for these early proto-galaxies in in for these early proto-galaxies in in for these early proto-galaxies in in which you know they must have been which you know they must have been which you know they must have been located in terms of you know blowing the located in terms of you know blowing the located in terms of you know blowing the gas out let's say and disrupting the gas out let's say and disrupting the gas out let's say and disrupting the system so much higher chance for the the system so much higher chance for the the system so much higher chance for the the earlier system to stay intact for longer earlier system to stay intact for longer earlier system to stay intact for longer right so there's a whole tale of right so there's a whole tale of right so there's a whole tale of consequences and this is what I mean consequences and this is what I mean consequences and this is what I mean with we need to find the story because with we need to find the story because with we need to find the story because you do you one thing and it's like The you do you one thing and it's like The you do you one thing and it's like The Dominoes the consequences everywhere and Dominoes the consequences everywhere and Dominoes the consequences everywhere and then you have a different Universe right then you have a different Universe right then you have a different Universe right so what could possibly be a good

so what could possibly be a good so what could possibly be a good explanation for something that that explanation for something that that explanation for something that that yields a lot of carbon and doesn't yield yields a lot of carbon and doesn't yield yields a lot of carbon and doesn't yield a lot of iron a lot of iron a lot of iron well it's not so much an explanation well it's not so much an explanation well it's not so much an explanation more like finding a mechanism for what more like finding a mechanism for what more like finding a mechanism for what happens in supernovae and the the happens in supernovae and the the happens in supernovae and the the official term what what was sort of as I official term what what was sort of as I official term what what was sort of as I said cooked up in order to to explain said cooked up in order to to explain said cooked up in order to to explain the observations and we have by the way the observations and we have by the way the observations and we have by the way found a whole bunch more of these tasks found a whole bunch more of these tasks found a whole bunch more of these tasks so that holds and it's called a fallback so that holds and it's called a fallback so that holds and it's called a fallback mechanism so actually in in the uh mechanism so actually in in the uh mechanism so actually in in the uh Supernova during the Supernova explosion Supernova during the Supernova explosion Supernova during the Supernova explosion a massive um black hole emerges and so a massive um black hole emerges and so a massive um black hole emerges and so some of the material falls back onto the some of the material falls back onto the some of the material falls back onto the black hole so here is a a vacuum cleaner black hole so here is a a vacuum cleaner black hole so here is a a vacuum cleaner now plopped into the middle right like a now plopped into the middle right like a now plopped into the middle right like a temporary one that just cleans up temporary one that just cleans up temporary one that just cleans up somewhere sort of right because if you somewhere sort of right because if you somewhere sort of right because if you think of the we haven't talked about think of the we haven't talked about think of the we haven't talked about this yet but um if you if you know what this yet but um if you if you know what this yet but um if you if you know what a star looks like a master star looks a star looks like a master star looks a star looks like a master star looks like on its on its in its interior like on its on its in its interior like on its on its in its interior before it explodes before it explodes before it explodes um you have hydrogen helium still on the um you have hydrogen helium still on the um you have hydrogen helium still on the outskirts and then you have your layers outskirts and then you have your layers outskirts and then you have your layers of heavier and heavy elements all the of heavier and heavy elements all the of heavier and heavy elements all the way up to iron so you have an iron core way up to iron so you have an iron core way up to iron so you have an iron core in the center in the center in the center um um um and because you can't get any energy out and because you can't get any energy out and because you can't get any energy out of iron when you want to fuse to iron of iron when you want to fuse to iron of iron when you want to fuse to iron atoms anymore right that's when the atoms anymore right that's when the atoms anymore right that's when the Supernova explodes what occurs really Supernova explodes what occurs really Supernova explodes what occurs really it's actually an implosion first and it's actually an implosion first and it's actually an implosion first and then you have a balance of of the the then you have a balance of of the the then you have a balance of of the the sort of neutron star phase that that sort of neutron star phase that that sort of neutron star phase that that that occurs in the process and then it's that occurs in the process and then it's that occurs in the process and then it's so awesome gets disrupted yeah it's like so awesome gets disrupted yeah it's like so awesome gets disrupted yeah it's like this giant you know basketball this giant you know basketball this giant you know basketball it all goes up explosion first explosion

it all goes up explosion first explosion it all goes up explosion first explosion yeah and so in the process right if you yeah and so in the process right if you yeah and so in the process right if you make your black hole basically big make your black hole basically big make your black hole basically big enough it will suck away some of the enough it will suck away some of the enough it will suck away some of the iron because that's the closest in the iron because that's the closest in the iron because that's the closest in the in terms of the layers you you you hold in terms of the layers you you you hold in terms of the layers you you you hold on to it you don't let it escape and on to it you don't let it escape and on to it you don't let it escape and carbon is much further out you let it carbon is much further out you let it carbon is much further out you let it all go all go all go and so so that explains why you can have and so so that explains why you can have and so so that explains why you can have a big oomph and not much iron yield yes a big oomph and not much iron yield yes a big oomph and not much iron yield yes yes so is this explain the he 1327 yes so is this explain the he 1327 yes so is this explain the he 1327 correct uh and others like it yes so correct uh and others like it yes so correct uh and others like it yes so there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a well well established now that the lower well well established now that the lower well well established now that the lower the iron abundance of the stars are the the iron abundance of the stars are the the iron abundance of the stars are the higher the carbon sort of gets and higher the carbon sort of gets and higher the carbon sort of gets and carbon is is such an interesting element carbon is is such an interesting element carbon is is such an interesting element in that regard in that regard in that regard if if we come back to the formation of if if we come back to the formation of if if we come back to the formation of the first Lomas does right so we had the the first Lomas does right so we had the the first Lomas does right so we had the the hotter gas just hydrogen helium that the hotter gas just hydrogen helium that the hotter gas just hydrogen helium that made the first stars there were 100 made the first stars there were 100 made the first stars there were 100 solar masses or so because it could the solar masses or so because it could the solar masses or so because it could the gas couldn't cool enough so they were gas couldn't cool enough so they were gas couldn't cool enough so they were big and puffy big and puffy big and puffy carbon then coming from the first Stars carbon then coming from the first Stars carbon then coming from the first Stars probably led to enough Cooling in these probably led to enough Cooling in these probably led to enough Cooling in these gas clouds that enabled the formation of gas clouds that enabled the formation of gas clouds that enabled the formation of the first lawmesters the first lawmesters the first lawmesters so think about what happened if there so think about what happened if there so think about what happened if there wouldn't have been any carbon or the wouldn't have been any carbon or the wouldn't have been any carbon or the properties of the carbon atom would be properties of the carbon atom would be properties of the carbon atom would be different it would not have cooled the different it would not have cooled the different it would not have cooled the gas in such significant ways perhaps gas in such significant ways perhaps gas in such significant ways perhaps there wouldn't be any lawmaster there wouldn't be any lawmaster there wouldn't be any lawmaster we wouldn't be here today right and

we wouldn't be here today right and we wouldn't be here today right and we're carbon based and so I think carbon we're carbon based and so I think carbon we're carbon based and so I think carbon is really the most important element in is really the most important element in is really the most important element in the universe for for a variety of the universe for for a variety of the universe for for a variety of reasons because it is just enabled this reasons because it is just enabled this reasons because it is just enabled this whole Evolution that that we're now whole Evolution that that we're now whole Evolution that that we're now observing and literally seeing in the observing and literally seeing in the observing and literally seeing in the sky sky sky and it's really fascinating so combined and it's really fascinating so combined and it's really fascinating so combined with the fact that you have the iron with the fact that you have the iron with the fact that you have the iron deficient so all of that is probably deficient so all of that is probably deficient so all of that is probably important to creating important to creating important to creating humans yeah yeah we need all the humans yeah yeah we need all the humans yeah yeah we need all the elements but if you don't have stars you elements but if you don't have stars you elements but if you don't have stars you know like the sun small stars that can know like the sun small stars that can know like the sun small stars that can actually host planets that have long actually host planets that have long actually host planets that have long lifetimes you need long long lifetimes lifetimes you need long long lifetimes lifetimes you need long long lifetimes if you want to have a stable planet if you want to have a stable planet if you want to have a stable planet and and develop humans and carbon is and and develop humans and carbon is and and develop humans and carbon is kind of important in many ways yes yes kind of important in many ways yes yes kind of important in many ways yes yes this is perhaps a this is perhaps a this is perhaps a interesting tangent if I could just interesting tangent if I could just interesting tangent if I could just mention that you interviewed a Mildred mention that you interviewed a Mildred mention that you interviewed a Mildred dresselhaus carbon Queen dresselhaus carbon Queen dresselhaus carbon Queen the remarkable life of the Nano size the remarkable life of the Nano size the remarkable life of the Nano size Pioneer Pioneer Pioneer um is there something you could say um is there something you could say um is there something you could say about the magic of carbon and the magic about the magic of carbon and the magic about the magic of carbon and the magic of Millie of Millie of Millie well Millie was certainly magic well Millie was certainly magic well Millie was certainly magic she was a professor at MIT for many she was a professor at MIT for many she was a professor at MIT for many decades I I met her a number of times decades I I met her a number of times decades I I met her a number of times her photograph actually a young and an her photograph actually a young and an her photograph actually a young and an older Millie is still on the wall every older Millie is still on the wall every older Millie is still on the wall every time I step out of the elevator in one time I step out of the elevator in one time I step out of the elevator in one of the buildings I see it of the buildings I see it of the buildings I see it um she pioneered all sorts of carbon um she pioneered all sorts of carbon um she pioneered all sorts of carbon um Nano work so she is a was a material um Nano work so she is a was a material um Nano work so she is a was a material scientist scientist scientist um very far removed from what I do on a

um very far removed from what I do on a um very far removed from what I do on a daily basis daily basis daily basis um but yes carbon has amazing properties um but yes carbon has amazing properties um but yes carbon has amazing properties when you study it and again that's when you study it and again that's when you study it and again that's indeed another aspect of why carbon is indeed another aspect of why carbon is indeed another aspect of why carbon is so fascinating so fascinating so fascinating um not just in in the cosmos but also um not just in in the cosmos but also um not just in in the cosmos but also for us you know making us creating us um for us you know making us creating us um for us you know making us creating us um in the way that we can use it in the way that we can use it in the way that we can use it um it's wonderful you sometimes think um it's wonderful you sometimes think um it's wonderful you sometimes think about this chemical evolution about this chemical evolution about this chemical evolution in this big philosophical way that we're in this big philosophical way that we're in this big philosophical way that we're we're the results of that chemical we're the results of that chemical we're the results of that chemical Evolution like we're made of this stuff Evolution like we're made of this stuff Evolution like we're made of this stuff like we're made of carbon yes we're made like we're made of carbon yes we're made like we're made of carbon yes we're made of sore stuff yeah and it can go right I of sore stuff yeah and it can go right I of sore stuff yeah and it can go right I mean it's almost like a cliche statement mean it's almost like a cliche statement mean it's almost like a cliche statement but it's uh it's also uh a materials a but it's uh it's also uh a materials a but it's uh it's also uh a materials a chemical a physics statement so it came chemical a physics statement so it came chemical a physics statement so it came from hydrogen and helium from hydrogen and helium from hydrogen and helium and somehow this formation has created and somehow this formation has created and somehow this formation has created these this interesting complexity of these this interesting complexity of these this interesting complexity of soup that made us soup that made us soup that made us what are we supposed to make of that what are we supposed to make of that what are we supposed to make of that like what did we just get really lucky like what did we just get really lucky like what did we just get really lucky why why do we get all this cool stuff why why do we get all this cool stuff why why do we get all this cool stuff yeah that's that's a good question I yeah that's that's a good question I yeah that's that's a good question I don't think it's a question as an answer don't think it's a question as an answer don't think it's a question as an answer I keep just asking why no but it's uh I keep just asking why no but it's uh I keep just asking why no but it's uh it's just this incredible mystery so it's just this incredible mystery so it's just this incredible mystery so much cool stuff had to happen much cool stuff had to happen much cool stuff had to happen so much sorry Hot Stuff had to happen so much sorry Hot Stuff had to happen so much sorry Hot Stuff had to happen right and and so much could have gone right and and so much could have gone right and and so much could have gone wrong and there would have been another wrong and there would have been another wrong and there would have been another outcome you know and it's actually outcome you know and it's actually outcome you know and it's actually amazing how how many things kind of fell amazing how how many things kind of fell amazing how how many things kind of fell in place I mean maybe that's all sort of

in place I mean maybe that's all sort of in place I mean maybe that's all sort of self-deterministic in some ways right we self-deterministic in some ways right we self-deterministic in some ways right we are who we are because that that was the are who we are because that that was the are who we are because that that was the path maybe we would have ended up being path maybe we would have ended up being path maybe we would have ended up being robots I don't know robots I don't know robots I don't know um but it's it's it's certainly um but it's it's it's certainly um but it's it's it's certainly wonderful to wonderful to wonderful to you know a scientists for us to to help you know a scientists for us to to help you know a scientists for us to to help contribute unraveling our our Cosmic contribute unraveling our our Cosmic contribute unraveling our our Cosmic history right I always say the history right I always say the history right I always say the biological evolution on Earth was biological evolution on Earth was biological evolution on Earth was you know absolutely facilitated by the you know absolutely facilitated by the you know absolutely facilitated by the chemical evolution of the universe right chemical evolution of the universe right chemical evolution of the universe right and one doesn't go without the other in and one doesn't go without the other in and one doesn't go without the other in that Evolution from a human perspective that Evolution from a human perspective that Evolution from a human perspective that Evolution seems to be creating more that Evolution seems to be creating more that Evolution seems to be creating more and more complexity the kind of and more complexity the kind of and more complexity the kind of interesting clumping of cool stuff interesting clumping of cool stuff interesting clumping of cool stuff seems to be accelerating and increasing seems to be accelerating and increasing seems to be accelerating and increasing it it's hard not to see as humans that it it's hard not to see as humans that it it's hard not to see as humans that there's some kind of purpose to it like there's some kind of purpose to it like there's some kind of purpose to it like a momentum towards complexity and Beauty a momentum towards complexity and Beauty a momentum towards complexity and Beauty you know you know you know well Beauty's in the eye of the beholder well Beauty's in the eye of the beholder well Beauty's in the eye of the beholder but yes everything gets more complicated but yes everything gets more complicated but yes everything gets more complicated but there's also a beauty to the the but there's also a beauty to the the but there's also a beauty to the the chemically pristine Universe in the chemically pristine Universe in the chemically pristine Universe in the early days early days early days yes yes I love the desert it's yes yes I love the desert it's yes yes I love the desert it's nothingness yeah that it has so much nothingness yeah that it has so much nothingness yeah that it has so much Aesthetics and appeal we came from Aesthetics and appeal we came from Aesthetics and appeal we came from nothing will return to nothing so what nothing will return to nothing so what nothing will return to nothing so what about he 1523 about he 1523 about he 1523 what's exciting a red a red giant star what's exciting a red a red giant star what's exciting a red a red giant star yes yes yes uh that's another one of your babies yes uh that's another one of your babies yes uh that's another one of your babies yes 13.2 billion years old 13.2 billion years old 13.2 billion years old um yeah um so that one isn't quite as

um yeah um so that one isn't quite as um yeah um so that one isn't quite as iron deficient as the other one so iron deficient as the other one so iron deficient as the other one so probably not a second generation star probably not a second generation star probably not a second generation star but easily second third sorry third but easily second third sorry third but easily second third sorry third fourth fifth or so we we can't really fourth fifth or so we we can't really fourth fifth or so we we can't really pin it down but that's also not super pin it down but that's also not super pin it down but that's also not super important for us what what is important important for us what what is important important for us what what is important is that that star has a very different is that that star has a very different is that that star has a very different chemical composition in a sense that yes chemical composition in a sense that yes chemical composition in a sense that yes we have all the elements up to iron we have all the elements up to iron we have all the elements up to iron there there there they have sort of normal they have sort of normal they have sort of normal ratios uh which means kind of the same ratios uh which means kind of the same ratios uh which means kind of the same as most other old stars and not too as most other old stars and not too as most other old stars and not too different from the Sun or at least you different from the Sun or at least you different from the Sun or at least you know different in quantifiable ways um but it has this huge overload of very um but it has this huge overload of very heavy elements heavy elements heavy elements and what was so nice about that stone and what was so nice about that stone and what was so nice about that stone particular was that I could measure the particular was that I could measure the particular was that I could measure the thorium and the uranium abundance thorium and the uranium abundance thorium and the uranium abundance and again that was the second of its and again that was the second of its and again that was the second of its kind kind kind um but the uranium abundance was could um but the uranium abundance was could um but the uranium abundance was could be more well determined so we had a be more well determined so we had a be more well determined so we had a better grasp on that now why arthurium better grasp on that now why arthurium better grasp on that now why arthurium and uranium interesting and uranium interesting and uranium interesting um they are radioactive elements they um they are radioactive elements they um they are radioactive elements they have they Decay thorium has a half-life have they Decay thorium has a half-life have they Decay thorium has a half-life of 14 billion years I believe and of 14 billion years I believe and of 14 billion years I believe and uranium of 4.7 uranium of 4.7 uranium of 4.7 which uh you know to focus on us on which uh you know to focus on us on which uh you know to focus on us on Earth is a really long time but those Earth is a really long time but those Earth is a really long time but those kind of timelines are really good when kind of timelines are really good when kind of timelines are really good when you want to explore the early universe

you want to explore the early universe you want to explore the early universe so so so there are two questions now that that there are two questions now that that there are two questions now that that kind of come to mind kind of come to mind kind of come to mind where do these elements come from and where do these elements come from and where do these elements come from and what what do they tell us right and um what what do they tell us right and um what what do they tell us right and um these as we know these as we know these as we know these heavy elements are made in a these heavy elements are made in a these heavy elements are made in a specific process it's a neutron capture specific process it's a neutron capture specific process it's a neutron capture process usually referred to as the r process usually referred to as the r process usually referred to as the r process for Rapid Neutron capture process for Rapid Neutron capture process for Rapid Neutron capture process we talked about seed nuclei process we talked about seed nuclei process we talked about seed nuclei before right so we still don't exactly before right so we still don't exactly before right so we still don't exactly know where this process can occur so you know where this process can occur so you know where this process can occur so you have let's say a lone iron atom have let's say a lone iron atom have let's say a lone iron atom somewhere and it it is in an environment somewhere and it it is in an environment somewhere and it it is in an environment where you have a strong Neutron flux where you have a strong Neutron flux where you have a strong Neutron flux which means there must be lots of which means there must be lots of which means there must be lots of neutrons around and again when we talk neutrons around and again when we talk neutrons around and again when we talk about the side we can summarize and about the side we can summarize and about the side we can summarize and Ponder where where that might be the Ponder where where that might be the Ponder where where that might be the case case case um but you have this iron atom and you um but you have this iron atom and you um but you have this iron atom and you bombard it with neutrons and you do it bombard it with neutrons and you do it bombard it with neutrons and you do it incredibly fast now what happens in the incredibly fast now what happens in the incredibly fast now what happens in the process that iron atom you know you process that iron atom you know you process that iron atom you know you collect lots of neutrons it becomes collect lots of neutrons it becomes collect lots of neutrons it becomes really big and unstable so it's a heavy really big and unstable so it's a heavy really big and unstable so it's a heavy Neutron Rich nucleus Neutron Rich nucleus Neutron Rich nucleus that wants to Decay that wants to Decay that wants to Decay because it's not stable it's way too big because it's not stable it's way too big because it's not stable it's way too big um and so let's say you add only one um and so let's say you add only one um and so let's say you add only one Neutron to it that would already make it Neutron to it that would already make it Neutron to it that would already make it unstable so it will then it has a unstable so it will then it has a unstable so it will then it has a characteristic Decay time that's called characteristic Decay time that's called characteristic Decay time that's called the beta Decay time scale so it will the beta Decay time scale so it will the beta Decay time scale so it will Decay to a stable nucleus so the neutron Decay to a stable nucleus so the neutron Decay to a stable nucleus so the neutron will convert to a proton and that makes will convert to a proton and that makes will convert to a proton and that makes it stable

it stable it stable if you know bombard lots and lots and if you know bombard lots and lots and if you know bombard lots and lots and lots of neutrons onto that seed nucleus lots of neutrons onto that seed nucleus lots of neutrons onto that seed nucleus within that time scale of the beta Decay within that time scale of the beta Decay within that time scale of the beta Decay that's how you get to this huge fat that's how you get to this huge fat that's how you get to this huge fat Neutron Rich nucleus that then wants to Neutron Rich nucleus that then wants to Neutron Rich nucleus that then wants to Decay right so the r the rapid process Decay right so the r the rapid process Decay right so the r the rapid process is you have your seed nuclear they get is you have your seed nuclear they get is you have your seed nuclear they get bombarded you create these these really bombarded you create these these really bombarded you create these these really heavy Neutron Rich nuclei heavy Neutron Rich nuclei heavy Neutron Rich nuclei they are heavier than uranium even they are heavier than uranium even they are heavier than uranium even the neutron flux stops and then all the neutron flux stops and then all the neutron flux stops and then all these heavy nuclei they Decay and they these heavy nuclei they Decay and they these heavy nuclei they Decay and they make all these stable isotopes that we make all these stable isotopes that we make all these stable isotopes that we know of all the way up to thorum and know of all the way up to thorum and know of all the way up to thorum and uranium uranium uranium so that rapid nuclei Decay is what so that rapid nuclei Decay is what so that rapid nuclei Decay is what creates all the functions correct and creates all the functions correct and creates all the functions correct and the whole thing is done within two the whole thing is done within two the whole thing is done within two seconds seconds seconds so just to add to the rapid here so just to add to the rapid here so just to add to the rapid here and literally the snapping on my hand and literally the snapping on my hand and literally the snapping on my hand it's it's all there in my talks I often it's it's all there in my talks I often it's it's all there in my talks I often I have this nice simulation that that I have this nice simulation that that I have this nice simulation that that illustrates illustrates illustrates um you know this this creation of these um you know this this creation of these um you know this this creation of these rap of these heavy neutral nuclei and I rap of these heavy neutral nuclei and I rap of these heavy neutral nuclei and I always say this is the only simulation always say this is the only simulation always say this is the only simulation you will ever see that's slower than you will ever see that's slower than you will ever see that's slower than real time real time real time because in astronomy you know we show oh because in astronomy you know we show oh because in astronomy you know we show oh this is how Galaxy forms 13 billion this is how Galaxy forms 13 billion this is how Galaxy forms 13 billion years in 30 seconds years in 30 seconds years in 30 seconds really short right this is the opposite really short right this is the opposite really short right this is the opposite me showing you this the element is me showing you this the element is me showing you this the element is already long long made so where and when already long long made so where and when already long long made so where and when does this happen does this process so does this happen does this process so does this happen does this process so you need the strong Neutron flux

you need the strong Neutron flux you need the strong Neutron flux the clumping of the the neutrons yes the clumping of the the neutrons yes the clumping of the the neutrons yes that's right and so there are not that that's right and so there are not that that's right and so there are not that many options right so where do you find many options right so where do you find many options right so where do you find lots of neutrons in the universe so it's lots of neutrons in the universe so it's lots of neutrons in the universe so it's neutron stars right neutron stars form neutron stars right neutron stars form neutron stars right neutron stars form in the making of supernovae of the in the making of supernovae of the in the making of supernovae of the explosions explosions explosions okay so maybe some of this heavy okay so maybe some of this heavy okay so maybe some of this heavy material gets sort of made in the making material gets sort of made in the making material gets sort of made in the making of the Supernova explosion and then gets of the Supernova explosion and then gets of the Supernova explosion and then gets expelled expelled expelled or you have neutron stars so the you or you have neutron stars so the you or you have neutron stars so the you know if the neutron star survive I mean know if the neutron star survive I mean know if the neutron star survive I mean usually that's the leftover of the usually that's the leftover of the usually that's the leftover of the Supernova if you have two from a binary Supernova if you have two from a binary Supernova if you have two from a binary pair so Stars usually actually show up pair so Stars usually actually show up pair so Stars usually actually show up in pairs and so it's not too unusual to in pairs and so it's not too unusual to in pairs and so it's not too unusual to um create a pair of of neutron stars um create a pair of of neutron stars um create a pair of of neutron stars that will still orbit each other after that will still orbit each other after that will still orbit each other after both of their progenitor Styles have both of their progenitor Styles have both of their progenitor Styles have exploded exploded exploded and those two Neutron cells will orbit and those two Neutron cells will orbit and those two Neutron cells will orbit each other diligently but as we know now each other diligently but as we know now each other diligently but as we know now thanks to ligo the gravitational wave thanks to ligo the gravitational wave thanks to ligo the gravitational wave Observatory Observatory Observatory ah I mean we know already that ah I mean we know already that ah I mean we know already that before but now it's been measured by before but now it's been measured by before but now it's been measured by ligo is that these two neutron stars ligo is that these two neutron stars ligo is that these two neutron stars they will orbit each other for like they will orbit each other for like they will orbit each other for like forever but in the process they will forever but in the process they will forever but in the process they will they will lose energy so that that orbit they will lose energy so that that orbit they will lose energy so that that orbit is what we call the orbit decays and is what we call the orbit decays and is what we call the orbit decays and eventually the two Neutron cells will eventually the two Neutron cells will eventually the two Neutron cells will merge and that results in a in an merge and that results in a in an merge and that results in a in an explosive event that has roughly the explosive event that has roughly the explosive event that has roughly the energy of a supernova but uh the process energy of a supernova but uh the process energy of a supernova but uh the process is completely different and the cool

is completely different and the cool is completely different and the cool thing is when these two neutron stars thing is when these two neutron stars thing is when these two neutron stars collide they produce a gravitational collide they produce a gravitational collide they produce a gravitational wave signature because neutron stars are wave signature because neutron stars are wave signature because neutron stars are super dense objects they are like giant super dense objects they are like giant super dense objects they are like giant atomic nucleuses so there's a lot of atomic nucleuses so there's a lot of atomic nucleuses so there's a lot of interesting physics happening already interesting physics happening already interesting physics happening already and so if you basically form a super and so if you basically form a super and so if you basically form a super neutron star by Smashing two into each neutron star by Smashing two into each neutron star by Smashing two into each other other other uh more interesting physics happens and uh more interesting physics happens and uh more interesting physics happens and that means that there's this Ripple sent that means that there's this Ripple sent that means that there's this Ripple sent out you know into the space uh the you out you know into the space uh the you out you know into the space uh the you know the space-time Continuum basically know the space-time Continuum basically know the space-time Continuum basically you know the what do people say the the you know the what do people say the the you know the what do people say the the ripples of space time you know it's like ripples of space time you know it's like ripples of space time you know it's like yes it's like you drop a rock into water yes it's like you drop a rock into water yes it's like you drop a rock into water right you see the waves coming so that's right you see the waves coming so that's right you see the waves coming so that's exactly what happens when two two exactly what happens when two two exactly what happens when two two neutron stars emerge and this is neutron stars emerge and this is neutron stars emerge and this is Neutron's Galore right it's really Neutron's Galore right it's really Neutron's Galore right it's really violent to smash two neutron stars you violent to smash two neutron stars you violent to smash two neutron stars you know so that are so dense already into know so that are so dense already into know so that are so dense already into each other each other each other and um they in in 2017 one of these and um they in in 2017 one of these and um they in in 2017 one of these events occurred and the ligo and Virgo events occurred and the ligo and Virgo events occurred and the ligo and Virgo gravitational wave observatories they gravitational wave observatories they gravitational wave observatories they detected that and then the astronomers detected that and then the astronomers detected that and then the astronomers pointed their telescopes in that pointed their telescopes in that pointed their telescopes in that direction and they indeed observed what direction and they indeed observed what direction and they indeed observed what we call the electromagnetic counterpart we call the electromagnetic counterpart we call the electromagnetic counterpart so there was something seen in the sky so there was something seen in the sky so there was something seen in the sky that faded over the course of two weeks that faded over the course of two weeks that faded over the course of two weeks and that's light curve that light was and that's light curve that light was and that's light curve that light was exactly exactly exactly what you get when you create all these what you get when you create all these what you get when you create all these heavy Neutron Rich nuclei in the r

heavy Neutron Rich nuclei in the r heavy Neutron Rich nuclei in the r process and then the neutron flux stops process and then the neutron flux stops process and then the neutron flux stops and then it takes about two or three and then it takes about two or three and then it takes about two or three weeks for most of them of these nuclear weeks for most of them of these nuclear weeks for most of them of these nuclear 2 DK2 stability 2 DK2 stability 2 DK2 stability so we saw the astronomer saw in this so we saw the astronomer saw in this so we saw the astronomer saw in this electromagnetic counterpart electromagnetic counterpart electromagnetic counterpart the nucleosynthesis of heavy elements the nucleosynthesis of heavy elements the nucleosynthesis of heavy elements occurring occurring occurring and that's that's just that's amazing and that's that's just that's amazing and that's that's just that's amazing awesome so that's so awesome that's awesome so that's so awesome that's awesome so that's so awesome that's electromagnetic counterpart to the electromagnetic counterpart to the electromagnetic counterpart to the gravitational waves that were detected gravitational waves that were detected gravitational waves that were detected with yes two neutron stars colliding with yes two neutron stars colliding with yes two neutron stars colliding aggressively violently to create a super aggressively violently to create a super aggressively violently to create a super neutron star and that's where you get neutron star and that's where you get neutron star and that's where you get all the neutrons and neutron flux all the neutrons and neutron flux all the neutrons and neutron flux somehow and then that the whole shebang somehow and then that the whole shebang somehow and then that the whole shebang that happens in two seconds so that that happens in two seconds so that that happens in two seconds so that confirmed that one of the sites for sure confirmed that one of the sites for sure confirmed that one of the sites for sure is is is for the r process to occur as neutron for the r process to occur as neutron for the r process to occur as neutron star mergers interestingly enough I have star mergers interestingly enough I have star mergers interestingly enough I have to mention this here A year prior in to mention this here A year prior in to mention this here A year prior in 2016 2016 2016 my former graduate student Alex G and I my former graduate student Alex G and I my former graduate student Alex G and I we discovered a small dwarf Galaxy we discovered a small dwarf Galaxy we discovered a small dwarf Galaxy that is currently orbiting the Milky Way that is currently orbiting the Milky Way that is currently orbiting the Milky Way it's called reticulum 2 that was full of it's called reticulum 2 that was full of it's called reticulum 2 that was full of ancient iron deficient stars that also ancient iron deficient stars that also ancient iron deficient stars that also had a strong signature of these heavy had a strong signature of these heavy had a strong signature of these heavy elements exactly like he1523 elements exactly like he1523 elements exactly like he1523 we weren't looking for that I actually we weren't looking for that I actually we weren't looking for that I actually wanted to prove that they had really low wanted to prove that they had really low wanted to prove that they had really low levels of heavy elements because that's levels of heavy elements because that's levels of heavy elements because that's what we had seen in all the other dwarf what we had seen in all the other dwarf what we had seen in all the other dwarf galaxies

galaxies galaxies and I was dead set on showing yet that and I was dead set on showing yet that and I was dead set on showing yet that that is yet the case again and that that that is yet the case again and that that that is yet the case again and that that is a typical signature of early star is a typical signature of early star is a typical signature of early star formation we already talked about low formation we already talked about low formation we already talked about low strontium and barium abundances and the strontium and barium abundances and the strontium and barium abundances and the oldest Stars right this is what we had oldest Stars right this is what we had oldest Stars right this is what we had seen anecdotally in in the ancient dwarf seen anecdotally in in the ancient dwarf seen anecdotally in in the ancient dwarf galaxies that are surrounding us so galaxies that are surrounding us so galaxies that are surrounding us so that's an ancient dwarf Galaxy the that's an ancient dwarf Galaxy the that's an ancient dwarf Galaxy the network galaxy has a bunch of ancient network galaxy has a bunch of ancient network galaxy has a bunch of ancient stars in it yes stars in it yes stars in it yes and so now we find reticulum 2 and it and so now we find reticulum 2 and it and so now we find reticulum 2 and it has these the Stars show the signature has these the Stars show the signature has these the Stars show the signature of the rapid Neutron capture process the of the rapid Neutron capture process the of the rapid Neutron capture process the r process and we elect r process and we elect r process and we elect okay these stars are located in a dwarf okay these stars are located in a dwarf okay these stars are located in a dwarf Galaxy right now we have environmental Galaxy right now we have environmental Galaxy right now we have environmental information they are not lost in the information they are not lost in the information they are not lost in the Galaxy where we don't know where they Galaxy where we don't know where they Galaxy where we don't know where they actually came from now we know these actually came from now we know these actually came from now we know these stars were formed in that Galaxy because stars were formed in that Galaxy because stars were formed in that Galaxy because they're still in it they're still in it they're still in it and that we already deduced from that and that we already deduced from that and that we already deduced from that that it must have been a neutron star that it must have been a neutron star that it must have been a neutron star merger that went off in reticulum 2 at merger that went off in reticulum 2 at merger that went off in reticulum 2 at Early times that polluted the gas from Early times that polluted the gas from Early times that polluted the gas from which all our little stars formed can which all our little stars formed can which all our little stars formed can you speak to what a dwarf Galaxy is can you speak to what a dwarf Galaxy is can you speak to what a dwarf Galaxy is can you speak to what this particular two you speak to what this particular two you speak to what this particular two dwarf Galaxy is that it's orbiting the dwarf Galaxy is that it's orbiting the dwarf Galaxy is that it's orbiting the Milky Way galaxy yeah it's going to be Milky Way galaxy yeah it's going to be Milky Way galaxy yeah it's going to be eaten by it presumably it totally is eaten by it presumably it totally is eaten by it presumably it totally is going to be eaten I can't tell you going to be eaten I can't tell you going to be eaten I can't tell you exactly when exactly when exactly when um yeah the Milky Way remains surrounded um yeah the Milky Way remains surrounded um yeah the Milky Way remains surrounded by dozens of small dwarf galaxies and by dozens of small dwarf galaxies and by dozens of small dwarf galaxies and they are collections of stars they are collections of stars they are collections of stars um some of them we call them Ultra faint um some of them we call them Ultra faint um some of them we call them Ultra faint dwarf galaxies because they now only dwarf galaxies because they now only dwarf galaxies because they now only contain I don't know a few thousand

contain I don't know a few thousand contain I don't know a few thousand stars stars stars um very very faint still detectable uh um very very faint still detectable uh um very very faint still detectable uh yes because they're fairly close and and yes because they're fairly close and and yes because they're fairly close and and we detect actual individual stars now so we detect actual individual stars now so we detect actual individual stars now so I've observed some of the the faintest I've observed some of the the faintest I've observed some of the the faintest Stars you know you possibly observed Stars you know you possibly observed Stars you know you possibly observed with current telescopes in in these with current telescopes in in these with current telescopes in in these dwarf galaxies because I was like I need dwarf galaxies because I was like I need dwarf galaxies because I was like I need to know what the chemical composition is to know what the chemical composition is to know what the chemical composition is because there are leftovers from the because there are leftovers from the because there are leftovers from the early Universe right they they did not early Universe right they they did not early Universe right they they did not get eaten so they're still in their get eaten so they're still in their get eaten so they're still in their native surroundings I I go it's like native surroundings I I go it's like native surroundings I I go it's like getting the lions in the wild right I getting the lions in the wild right I getting the lions in the wild right I gotta study those and compare to the gotta study those and compare to the gotta study those and compare to the counterparts that got eaten and are now counterparts that got eaten and are now counterparts that got eaten and are now in the Milky Way and so I so presumably in the Milky Way and so I so presumably in the Milky Way and so I so presumably most of those Stars it's not all those most of those Stars it's not all those most of those Stars it's not all those Stars Network Galaxy are really ancient Stars Network Galaxy are really ancient Stars Network Galaxy are really ancient they're all really ancient because they're all really ancient because they're all really ancient because actually as it turns out if you have a actually as it turns out if you have a actually as it turns out if you have a small Galaxy small Galaxy small Galaxy um um um there was a process early on in the there was a process early on in the there was a process early on in the universe called reionization that kind universe called reionization that kind universe called reionization that kind of heated up everything and together of heated up everything and together of heated up everything and together with some Supernova explosions in an with some Supernova explosions in an with some Supernova explosions in an early shallow you know bound system early shallow you know bound system early shallow you know bound system all these little systems lost the gas it all these little systems lost the gas it all these little systems lost the gas it was sort of blown out or it simply was sort of blown out or it simply was sort of blown out or it simply evaporated or both probably both evaporated or both probably both evaporated or both probably both um and so these systems have been unable um and so these systems have been unable um and so these systems have been unable to continue to form Stars since so it's to continue to form Stars since so it's to continue to form Stars since so it's it's it's the best it's it's the best it's it's the best for a Stella archaeologists that you for a Stella archaeologists that you for a Stella archaeologists that you could hope for because it's a whole could hope for because it's a whole could hope for because it's a whole bunch of stars still sitting there it's bunch of stars still sitting there it's bunch of stars still sitting there it's not just one there's a whole bunch of not just one there's a whole bunch of not just one there's a whole bunch of them still sitting there ever since and

them still sitting there ever since and them still sitting there ever since and nothing has literally nothing has nothing has literally nothing has nothing has literally nothing has happened to them they're just been happened to them they're just been happened to them they're just been waiting there for us so from the Stellar waiting there for us so from the Stellar waiting there for us so from the Stellar archeology perspective what is like archeology perspective what is like archeology perspective what is like juicier more interesting the uh juicier more interesting the uh juicier more interesting the uh the old stars and the outskirts that the old stars and the outskirts that the old stars and the outskirts that have been eaten or the outskirts of have been eaten or the outskirts of have been eaten or the outskirts of Milky Way or the the stars in the in the Milky Way or the the stars in the in the Milky Way or the the stars in the in the dwarf galaxies what's uh what's uh about dwarf galaxies what's uh what's uh about dwarf galaxies what's uh what's uh about the world you said you love Stars so uh the world you said you love Stars so uh the world you said you love Stars so uh which do you love more of you oh that's which do you love more of you oh that's which do you love more of you oh that's a hard one I mean I love them all of a hard one I mean I love them all of a hard one I mean I love them all of course course course um they serve different purposes the the um they serve different purposes the the um they serve different purposes the the SAS in the Milky Way um I can get much SAS in the Milky Way um I can get much SAS in the Milky Way um I can get much much better data for them because much better data for them because much better data for them because they're brighter they're closer so they're brighter they're closer so they're brighter they're closer so they're brighter and that uh that they're brighter and that uh that they're brighter and that uh that tickles my fancy and they have tickles my fancy and they have tickles my fancy and they have interesting kinematics presumably yes interesting kinematics presumably yes interesting kinematics presumably yes and we can get that and so he1523 for and we can get that and so he1523 for and we can get that and so he1523 for example you know that one is really example you know that one is really example you know that one is really bright only it's a red giant so it's bright only it's a red giant so it's bright only it's a red giant so it's intrinsically bright and it's fairly intrinsically bright and it's fairly intrinsically bright and it's fairly close close close and so the data I got for that was and so the data I got for that was and so the data I got for that was insanely good and that yielded this insanely good and that yielded this insanely good and that yielded this uranium detection and thorium detection uranium detection and thorium detection uranium detection and thorium detection um I can never get that kind of data for um I can never get that kind of data for um I can never get that kind of data for dwarf Galaxy Star so that's a big dwarf Galaxy Star so that's a big dwarf Galaxy Star so that's a big trade-off but the environmental trade-off but the environmental trade-off but the environmental information that would we get along with information that would we get along with information that would we get along with the basic information about these stars the basic information about these stars the basic information about these stars in each dwarf Galaxy is really really in each dwarf Galaxy is really really in each dwarf Galaxy is really really valuable in establishing you know these valuable in establishing you know these valuable in establishing you know these um for example these site information um for example these site information um for example these site information right sure because the the Galaxy is right sure because the the Galaxy is right sure because the the Galaxy is still there so nothing crazy could have still there so nothing crazy could have still there so nothing crazy could have happened so actually to close that Loop

happened so actually to close that Loop happened so actually to close that Loop probably some heavy elements come out of probably some heavy elements come out of probably some heavy elements come out of supernovae here and there but somehow my supernovae here and there but somehow my supernovae here and there but somehow my theory colleagues tell me that the theory colleagues tell me that the theory colleagues tell me that the normal Supernova just doesn't have normal Supernova just doesn't have normal Supernova just doesn't have enough oomph to really get an R process enough oomph to really get an R process enough oomph to really get an R process going and doing doing it all so any going and doing doing it all so any going and doing doing it all so any disorbiting super disorbiting super disorbiting super we need them the probably the neutron we need them the probably the neutron we need them the probably the neutron star mergers or we need a special kind star mergers or we need a special kind star mergers or we need a special kind of supernova that's maybe extremely of supernova that's maybe extremely of supernova that's maybe extremely massive or heavily rotating or does massive or heavily rotating or does massive or heavily rotating or does something else funny right to really something else funny right to really something else funny right to really kind of get that particular process kind of get that particular process kind of get that particular process going but uh the normal supernovae don't going but uh the normal supernovae don't going but uh the normal supernovae don't do it right so only a little bit comes do it right so only a little bit comes do it right so only a little bit comes up but you could come alongside Anna why up but you could come alongside Anna why up but you could come alongside Anna why don't you just take 100 supernovae don't you just take 100 supernovae don't you just take 100 supernovae together to build up the yield right but together to build up the yield right but together to build up the yield right but then I come along and say like Mike look then I come along and say like Mike look then I come along and say like Mike look this dwarf Galaxy is still intact today this dwarf Galaxy is still intact today this dwarf Galaxy is still intact today if you would have plugged in 100 if you would have plugged in 100 if you would have plugged in 100 supernovae into this little system early supernovae into this little system early supernovae into this little system early on it would have blown apart it would on it would have blown apart it would on it would have blown apart it would have blown apart past five supernovia or have blown apart past five supernovia or have blown apart past five supernovia or ten so that's a really important ten so that's a really important ten so that's a really important constraint that we have that these constraint that we have that these constraint that we have that these systems are still alive right so systems are still alive right so systems are still alive right so um it helps us to pin down where certain um it helps us to pin down where certain um it helps us to pin down where certain processes could have possibly happened processes could have possibly happened processes could have possibly happened and so that's it's just a it's just a and so that's it's just a it's just a and so that's it's just a it's just a different type of information that we different type of information that we different type of information that we get get get it'd be amazing if we could talk about it'd be amazing if we could talk about it'd be amazing if we could talk about the observational aspect of this the the observational aspect of this the the observational aspect of this the tools of observation so what telescopes tools of observation so what telescopes tools of observation so what telescopes have you used do you use and what does have you used do you use and what does have you used do you use and what does the data look like and I think I've read the data look like and I think I've read the data look like and I think I've read a few interesting stories about the a few interesting stories about the a few interesting stories about the actual process of day-to-day observation actual process of day-to-day observation actual process of day-to-day observation a bunch of uh probably late nights a bunch of uh probably late nights a bunch of uh probably late nights well yeah astronomers are doing it all

well yeah astronomers are doing it all well yeah astronomers are doing it all night long so oh yeah night long so oh yeah night long so oh yeah can you explain the all night long can you explain the all night long can you explain the all night long aspect of it aspect of it aspect of it um well let me start by saying uh I um well let me start by saying uh I um well let me start by saying uh I mostly these days use the Magellan mostly these days use the Magellan mostly these days use the Magellan telescopes in Chile they are 6.5 meter telescopes in Chile they are 6.5 meter telescopes in Chile they are 6.5 meter telescope which means the the mirror telescope which means the the mirror telescope which means the the mirror diameter is 6.5 meter diameter is 6.5 meter diameter is 6.5 meter um that's not the largest that there's um that's not the largest that there's um that's not the largest that there's out there but it's among the largest and out there but it's among the largest and out there but it's among the largest and um I use a spectrograph because I'm a um I use a spectrograph because I'm a um I use a spectrograph because I'm a spectroscopist I don't take pictures um and uh that particular spectrograph um and uh that particular spectrograph at that telescope is actually at that telescope is actually at that telescope is actually um unusually efficient so it kind of um unusually efficient so it kind of um unusually efficient so it kind of makes up for the fact that the mirror makes up for the fact that the mirror makes up for the fact that the mirror isn't as large and not let's say the isn't as large and not let's say the isn't as large and not let's say the eight meter telescopes from the eight meter telescopes from the eight meter telescopes from the Europeans or so so I'm very happy with Europeans or so so I'm very happy with Europeans or so so I'm very happy with that efficiency meaning how many photons that efficiency meaning how many photons that efficiency meaning how many photons get collected sort of per time unit get collected sort of per time unit get collected sort of per time unit because we that that's always the because we that that's always the because we that that's always the limiting factor limiting factor limiting factor um um um uh prior to the pandemic we would travel uh prior to the pandemic we would travel uh prior to the pandemic we would travel to Chile to do our observations to Chile to do our observations to Chile to do our observations um those telescopes are the that's the um those telescopes are the that's the um those telescopes are the that's the last Observatory where people were sort last Observatory where people were sort last Observatory where people were sort of supposed to travel there and take of supposed to travel there and take of supposed to travel there and take their own observations most other their own observations most other their own observations most other observatories observatories observatories basically have staff there by now who basically have staff there by now who basically have staff there by now who take the observations for you take the observations for you take the observations for you so there's the directly the scientists so there's the directly the scientists so there's the directly the scientists are are are specifying where to point the telescope specifying where to point the telescope specifying where to point the telescope and sitting there and collecting the and sitting there and collecting the and sitting there and collecting the data make sure the data is collected data make sure the data is collected data make sure the data is collected well the cleaning of the data the what well the cleaning of the data the what well the cleaning of the data the what offloading of the data all that kind of

offloading of the data all that kind of offloading of the data all that kind of stuff yeah so it's mostly done for them stuff yeah so it's mostly done for them stuff yeah so it's mostly done for them yeah yeah yeah um obviously that's super convenient but um obviously that's super convenient but um obviously that's super convenient but it also takes takes away a central part it also takes takes away a central part it also takes takes away a central part of what the work of an astronomer is of what the work of an astronomer is of what the work of an astronomer is which is data collection which is data collection which is data collection right we don't have an experiment in the right we don't have an experiment in the right we don't have an experiment in the basement where we can go day and night basement where we can go day and night basement where we can go day and night or whenever we please or whenever we please or whenever we please um and ask a certain question of the um and ask a certain question of the um and ask a certain question of the apparatus right let's apparatus right let's apparatus right let's turn this knob and see what happens turn this knob and see what happens turn this knob and see what happens let's turn that knob and see what let's turn that knob and see what let's turn that knob and see what happens no you know we we only have one happens no you know we we only have one happens no you know we we only have one experiment uh which is the universe and experiment uh which is the universe and experiment uh which is the universe and we what we see is what we get we what we see is what we get we what we see is what we get and I think it's it's so important to to and I think it's it's so important to to and I think it's it's so important to to take an active role in that so I really take an active role in that so I really take an active role in that so I really love going to the observatory I've taken love going to the observatory I've taken love going to the observatory I've taken many students there over the years many students there over the years many students there over the years to to teach them and to to to teach them and to to to teach them and to just show them what it means to to be in just show them what it means to to be in just show them what it means to to be in astronomer because you you go to the astronomer because you you go to the astronomer because you you go to the these remote mountain tops and it's such these remote mountain tops and it's such these remote mountain tops and it's such a magical environment and you wait there a magical environment and you wait there a magical environment and you wait there you know for the sun to go down and then you know for the sun to go down and then you know for the sun to go down and then you get ready and you look outside and you get ready and you look outside and you get ready and you look outside and it's it's such a Serene environment it's it's such a Serene environment it's it's such a Serene environment um it's it's a little bit out of this um it's it's a little bit out of this um it's it's a little bit out of this world you're sitting there so the sun world you're sitting there so the sun world you're sitting there so the sun goes down it's evening late evening goes down it's evening late evening goes down it's evening late evening and uh what does it look like what are and uh what does it look like what are and uh what does it look like what are some of the most magical experiences of some of the most magical experiences of some of the most magical experiences of that process well you know when you're that process well you know when you're that process well you know when you're on top of a mountain uh you know on top of a mountain uh you know on top of a mountain uh you know climbers I guess get to see that climbers I guess get to see that climbers I guess get to see that probably

probably probably um otherwise um um otherwise um um otherwise um it's it's very calm and the colors are it's it's very calm and the colors are it's it's very calm and the colors are so beautiful and so beautiful and so beautiful and I always become much calmer when I'm I always become much calmer when I'm I always become much calmer when I'm there I'm just a because I'm just there there I'm just a because I'm just there there I'm just a because I'm just there for one purpose only that's data for one purpose only that's data for one purpose only that's data collection collection collection I can say no to my emails I can say no I can say no to my emails I can say no I can say no to my emails I can say no to everything else because I'm observing to everything else because I'm observing to everything else because I'm observing so there's literally less less so there's literally less less so there's literally less less distractions because you know you're distractions because you know you're distractions because you know you're just there to do one thing and also the just there to do one thing and also the just there to do one thing and also the emails somehow seem less significant emails somehow seem less significant emails somehow seem less significant yeah yeah it's just you can't afford to yeah yeah it's just you can't afford to yeah yeah it's just you can't afford to focus on this one thing and you focus on this one thing and you focus on this one thing and you it just kind of does something to you it just kind of does something to you it just kind of does something to you it's it's a little hard to describe but it's it's a little hard to describe but it's it's a little hard to describe but um um um you know if you then fast forward maybe you know if you then fast forward maybe you know if you then fast forward maybe I can speak a little bit about that and I can speak a little bit about that and I can speak a little bit about that and I have done a lot of astrophotography I have done a lot of astrophotography I have done a lot of astrophotography there as well so and and I observing there as well so and and I observing there as well so and and I observing faint dwarf Galaxy Stars you know these faint dwarf Galaxy Stars you know these faint dwarf Galaxy Stars you know these are like 45 minutes 55 minute exposure are like 45 minutes 55 minute exposure are like 45 minutes 55 minute exposure so you actually have a lot of time so I so you actually have a lot of time so I so you actually have a lot of time so I would run outside would run outside would run outside and just lay on the ground under the and just lay on the ground under the and just lay on the ground under the southern Milky Way southern Milky Way southern Milky Way beautiful right up you know there and I beautiful right up you know there and I beautiful right up you know there and I would just lay there like the snow angel would just lay there like the snow angel would just lay there like the snow angel you know you know you know and it just stare up there and just kind and it just stare up there and just kind and it just stare up there and just kind of let my thoughts sort of pass through of let my thoughts sort of pass through of let my thoughts sort of pass through my brain and just like I'm I'm one of it my brain and just like I'm I'm one of it my brain and just like I'm I'm one of it right we talked about this in the right we talked about this in the right we talked about this in the beginning this is when I personally have beginning this is when I personally have beginning this is when I personally have the feeling that I'm a part of it I I

the feeling that I'm a part of it I I the feeling that I'm a part of it I I belong here rather than feeling kind of belong here rather than feeling kind of belong here rather than feeling kind of small yes I'm small but there are many small yes I'm small but there are many small yes I'm small but there are many other small things and lots of small other small things and lots of small other small things and lots of small things make one big hole yeah we're part things make one big hole yeah we're part things make one big hole yeah we're part of that big hole and um so that's of that big hole and um so that's of that big hole and um so that's looking at the inner spirals yes Milky looking at the inner spirals yes Milky looking at the inner spirals yes Milky Way galaxy and just you know this this Way galaxy and just you know this this Way galaxy and just you know this this dark sky with the with the bright stars dark sky with the with the bright stars dark sky with the with the bright stars and I have described this in my my book and I have described this in my my book and I have described this in my my book um years ago um years ago um years ago if the Milky Way Is All Bright above you if the Milky Way Is All Bright above you if the Milky Way Is All Bright above you you don't need a moon or anything you you don't need a moon or anything you you don't need a moon or anything you can walk in the Starlight and you will can walk in the Starlight and you will can walk in the Starlight and you will find your way there are no trees there find your way there are no trees there find your way there are no trees there for safety reasons but you wouldn't even for safety reasons but you wouldn't even for safety reasons but you wouldn't even run into a tree right I mean you can see run into a tree right I mean you can see run into a tree right I mean you can see you can almost see the shadow you know you can almost see the shadow you know you can almost see the shadow you know from from The Starlight because it's from from The Starlight because it's from from The Starlight because it's such a dark side and and the stars are such a dark side and and the stars are such a dark side and and the stars are so bright and these are kind of moments so bright and these are kind of moments so bright and these are kind of moments that that kind of change you a little that that kind of change you a little that that kind of change you a little bit bit bit and you see the unity of it all yeah and and you see the unity of it all yeah and and you see the unity of it all yeah and it's just you and nature and it's just you and nature and it's just you and nature and you know with modern civilization and you know with modern civilization and you know with modern civilization and all of that we I think we often try a all of that we I think we often try a all of that we I think we often try a little bit too hard to be removed from little bit too hard to be removed from little bit too hard to be removed from from nature you know to to be from nature you know to to be from nature you know to to be independent of it and figuring it all independent of it and figuring it all independent of it and figuring it all out but at the end of the day we're just out but at the end of the day we're just out but at the end of the day we're just a part of it and and that really helps a part of it and and that really helps a part of it and and that really helps me to remember that that you know me to remember that that you know me to remember that that you know well one and the same well that fills me well one and the same well that fills me well one and the same well that fills me with hope that because I I tend to think with hope that because I I tend to think with hope that because I I tend to think of us humans as in the very early days of us humans as in the very early days of us humans as in the very early days of whatever the heck we are so that of whatever the heck we are so that of whatever the heck we are so that makes me think uh thousands tens of

makes me think uh thousands tens of makes me think uh thousands tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of years thousands hundreds of thousands of years thousands hundreds of thousands of years from now there will be reached whatever from now there will be reached whatever from now there will be reached whatever we become will be traveling out there to we become will be traveling out there to we become will be traveling out there to explore more and more and more yeah so explore more and more and more yeah so explore more and more and more yeah so we're what you're doing is the early we're what you're doing is the early we're what you're doing is the early days of Exploration with the tools we days of Exploration with the tools we days of Exploration with the tools we have yes the early seafarers looking at have yes the early seafarers looking at have yes the early seafarers looking at the sky for navigation coming up with the sky for navigation coming up with the sky for navigation coming up with different theories of what uh what's on different theories of what uh what's on different theories of what uh what's on the other side that the Earth is the other side that the Earth is the other side that the Earth is starting to gain an intuition that the starting to gain an intuition that the starting to gain an intuition that the Earth may be round Earth may be round Earth may be round and then we might be able to navigate and then we might be able to navigate and then we might be able to navigate all the way around to get to all the way around to get to all the way around to get to um the financial benefits of getting um the financial benefits of getting um the financial benefits of getting spices from India whatever the reason spices from India whatever the reason spices from India whatever the reason whatever the grant funding process is whatever the grant funding process is whatever the grant funding process is all about but ultimately actually all about but ultimately actually all about but ultimately actually results in a deep understanding of the results in a deep understanding of the results in a deep understanding of the mystery that's uh all around us and I mystery that's uh all around us and I mystery that's uh all around us and I mean it's just to travel out there mean it's just to travel out there mean it's just to travel out there I mean to me I mean to me I mean to me the discovery of life in the solar the discovery of life in the solar the discovery of life in the solar system system system I really hope to see that in my lifetime I really hope to see that in my lifetime I really hope to see that in my lifetime some kind of some kind of Life bacteria some kind of some kind of Life bacteria some kind of some kind of Life bacteria something maybe dead because that means something maybe dead because that means something maybe dead because that means there's life everywhere there's life everywhere there's life everywhere and that that's just the kind of stuff and that that's just the kind of stuff and that that's just the kind of stuff that might be out there that might be out there that might be out there all the different all the different all the different um um um all the different environmental all the different environmental all the different environmental conditions chemically speaking that are conditions chemically speaking that are conditions chemically speaking that are out there and it just seems like when out there and it just seems like when out there and it just seems like when you look at Earth life finds a way you look at Earth life finds a way you look at Earth life finds a way to survive to thrive in whatever to survive to thrive in whatever to survive to thrive in whatever conditions and so uh conditions and so uh conditions and so uh maybe that process just kind of humbles maybe that process just kind of humbles maybe that process just kind of humbles you as a super exciting to know that you as a super exciting to know that you as a super exciting to know that there is life out there of different

there is life out there of different there is life out there of different forms and of course that raises the forms and of course that raises the forms and of course that raises the question of um question of um question of um what is life even we tend to have a very what is life even we tend to have a very what is life even we tend to have a very human-centric perspective human-centric perspective human-centric perspective of uh what is a living organism and what of uh what is a living organism and what of uh what is a living organism and what is intelligence and all this kind of is intelligence and all this kind of is intelligence and all this kind of stuff and all the work in artificial stuff and all the work in artificial stuff and all the work in artificial intelligence now is starting to intelligence now is starting to intelligence now is starting to challenge our ideas of what makes human challenge our ideas of what makes human challenge our ideas of what makes human beings special beings special beings special I think we're doing that through all I think we're doing that through all I think we're doing that through all kinds of ways and I think you're working kinds of ways and I think you're working kinds of ways and I think you're working some part doing that as well like the some part doing that as well like the some part doing that as well like the unity you feel is realizing where uh unity you feel is realizing where uh unity you feel is realizing where uh we're part of this big mechanism of we're part of this big mechanism of we're part of this big mechanism of nature whatever that is that's creating nature whatever that is that's creating nature whatever that is that's creating all kinds of cool stuff from The Humble all kinds of cool stuff from The Humble all kinds of cool stuff from The Humble pristine Origins to uh to today pristine Origins to uh to today pristine Origins to uh to today um um um so what is if you could just kind of so what is if you could just kind of so what is if you could just kind of Linger on the on the process of the data Linger on the on the process of the data Linger on the on the process of the data what does the data look like and how what does the data look like and how what does the data look like and how does the data the raw data lead to uh does the data the raw data lead to uh does the data the raw data lead to uh a discovery of an ancient star a discovery of an ancient star a discovery of an ancient star well as a spectroscopist we have to I well as a spectroscopist we have to I well as a spectroscopist we have to I guess talk for for a brief moment about guess talk for for a brief moment about guess talk for for a brief moment about what what a spectrum is yes what what a spectrum is yes what what a spectrum is yes um um um everyone I hope has seen a rainbow in everyone I hope has seen a rainbow in everyone I hope has seen a rainbow in the sky that is the sky that is the sky that is that is basically what we're doing uh we that is basically what we're doing uh we that is basically what we're doing uh we don't send the Starlight through a don't send the Starlight through a don't send the Starlight through a raindrop that then gets bounced around raindrop that then gets bounced around raindrop that then gets bounced around and splits up the light into the rainbow and splits up the light into the rainbow and splits up the light into the rainbow colors we colors we colors we um we do it with a spectrograph so um we do it with a spectrograph so um we do it with a spectrograph so basically a prism so we send a Starlight basically a prism so we send a Starlight basically a prism so we send a Starlight through a prism of sorts and that splits

through a prism of sorts and that splits through a prism of sorts and that splits it up and then we record exactly that so it up and then we record exactly that so it up and then we record exactly that so it's a little 2D picture actually of a it's a little 2D picture actually of a it's a little 2D picture actually of a spectrum spectrum spectrum now uh it's not gonna look colorful it's now uh it's not gonna look colorful it's now uh it's not gonna look colorful it's just black or black and white different just black or black and white different just black or black and white different and different colors have of course and different colors have of course and different colors have of course different energies that's what what we different energies that's what what we different energies that's what what we record record record um more specifically we we record it as um more specifically we we record it as um more specifically we we record it as as wavelengths so wavelengths and as wavelengths so wavelengths and as wavelengths so wavelengths and frequency and energies all all the same frequency and energies all all the same frequency and energies all all the same at the end of the day at the end of the day at the end of the day um we process that that little image in um we process that that little image in um we process that that little image in the sense that we do a cross cut the sense that we do a cross cut the sense that we do a cross cut and then sum up a few columns so that we and then sum up a few columns so that we and then sum up a few columns so that we get all the data that we recorded and get all the data that we recorded and get all the data that we recorded and what we see is a um it's a bit funny to what we see is a um it's a bit funny to what we see is a um it's a bit funny to describe just with words but a wiggly describe just with words but a wiggly describe just with words but a wiggly line with lots of dips so the 2D process line with lots of dips so the 2D process line with lots of dips so the 2D process Spectrum we call it Continuum so it's Spectrum we call it Continuum so it's Spectrum we call it Continuum so it's just a flat line basically and then they just a flat line basically and then they just a flat line basically and then they are dips so the interesting things are are dips so the interesting things are are dips so the interesting things are the dips if you think back of the the dips if you think back of the the dips if you think back of the rainbow what we actually see in Our rainbow what we actually see in Our rainbow what we actually see in Our Stars is not just a rainbow but it would Stars is not just a rainbow but it would Stars is not just a rainbow but it would be a rainbow with lots of black lines in be a rainbow with lots of black lines in be a rainbow with lots of black lines in it which means certain little pieces of it which means certain little pieces of it which means certain little pieces of color have been eaten Away by a certain color have been eaten Away by a certain color have been eaten Away by a certain amount and so we can no longer see it as amount and so we can no longer see it as amount and so we can no longer see it as well or not at all well or not at all well or not at all why is that happening so if we come back why is that happening so if we come back why is that happening so if we come back to our Stars what we're observing we're to our Stars what we're observing we're to our Stars what we're observing we're observing the Stella surface we can observing the Stella surface we can observing the Stella surface we can actually never peer without telescopes actually never peer without telescopes actually never peer without telescopes inside we only ever go can go after the

inside we only ever go can go after the inside we only ever go can go after the surface surface surface and the and the and the surface contains oh the surface layer surface contains oh the surface layer surface contains oh the surface layer contains different kinds of elements contains different kinds of elements contains different kinds of elements every one of those types of atoms so every one of those types of atoms so every one of those types of atoms so elements are just different types of elements are just different types of elements are just different types of atoms they absorb different photons that atoms they absorb different photons that atoms they absorb different photons that are coming from the hot core where the are coming from the hot core where the are coming from the hot core where the fusion is occurring and so that means fusion is occurring and so that means fusion is occurring and so that means that if you're the Observer you know that if you're the Observer you know that if you're the Observer you know with a spectrograph or without with a spectrograph or without with a spectrograph or without um you will see the Starlight but um you will see the Starlight but um you will see the Starlight but certain frequencies certain energies of certain frequencies certain energies of certain frequencies certain energies of that light will have been absorbed by that light will have been absorbed by that light will have been absorbed by all the different atoms in the gas all the different atoms in the gas all the different atoms in the gas so you see less of them and so those are so you see less of them and so those are so you see less of them and so those are the dips and the strength of the dips the dips and the strength of the dips the dips and the strength of the dips tell us you know which element was it tell us you know which element was it tell us you know which element was it and how much of that element was or is and how much of that element was or is and how much of that element was or is in in the star in in the star in in the star so we have many many dips the the solar so we have many many dips the the solar so we have many many dips the the solar Spectrum for reference you know all the Spectrum for reference you know all the Spectrum for reference you know all the dips are overlapping because the dips are overlapping because the dips are overlapping because the abundance of all the elements are so abundance of all the elements are so abundance of all the elements are so high it's actually very complicated high it's actually very complicated high it's actually very complicated Spectrum my Spectra really look like a Spectrum my Spectra really look like a Spectrum my Spectra really look like a straight line and then there's a dip straight line and then there's a dip straight line and then there's a dip here and then you have the straight line here and then you have the straight line here and then you have the straight line again there's a dip there the sun again there's a dip there the sun again there's a dip there the sun doesn't have straight lines I mean doesn't have straight lines I mean doesn't have straight lines I mean that's just all absorbed in some form or that's just all absorbed in some form or that's just all absorbed in some form or another um but the old stars have so little of um but the old stars have so little of all the elements that they're only all the elements that they're only all the elements that they're only occasionally these dips that then occasionally these dips that then occasionally these dips that then indicate okay that one at that indicate okay that one at that indicate okay that one at that wavelength was iron and here we have

wavelength was iron and here we have wavelength was iron and here we have carbon and there's magnesium and sodium carbon and there's magnesium and sodium carbon and there's magnesium and sodium and oh there's a little strontium line and oh there's a little strontium line and oh there's a little strontium line here so we have a much easier way to here so we have a much easier way to here so we have a much easier way to um map out this barcode that the um map out this barcode that the um map out this barcode that the Spectrum you know pretty much is in at Spectrum you know pretty much is in at Spectrum you know pretty much is in at the end of the day and to then measure the end of the day and to then measure the end of the day and to then measure the strength of these we call it the strength of these we call it the strength of these we call it absorption lines to then calculate with absorption lines to then calculate with absorption lines to then calculate with existing codes that mimic the physics of existing codes that mimic the physics of existing codes that mimic the physics of the Stellar hemispheres like how much the Stellar hemispheres like how much the Stellar hemispheres like how much was absorbed how many what what kind of was absorbed how many what what kind of was absorbed how many what what kind of elements were were present in in the elements were were present in in the elements were were present in in the cellar atmosphere cellar atmosphere cellar atmosphere and so this is how we get to our and so this is how we get to our and so this is how we get to our abundance measurements and then all abundance measurements and then all abundance measurements and then all together that gives us the the chemical together that gives us the the chemical together that gives us the the chemical composition and and that particular composition and and that particular composition and and that particular signature in that star signature in that star signature in that star if you uh do you ever look at like the if you uh do you ever look at like the if you uh do you ever look at like the raw spectrograph and the absorption line raw spectrograph and the absorption line raw spectrograph and the absorption line and they're able to see and they're able to see and they're able to see Intuit some interesting non-standard Intuit some interesting non-standard Intuit some interesting non-standard outlier kind of patterns outlier kind of patterns outlier kind of patterns or does this have to do heavy amount of or does this have to do heavy amount of or does this have to do heavy amount of processing processing processing um we actually process our it's fairly um we actually process our it's fairly um we actually process our it's fairly straightforward to to do our processing straightforward to to do our processing straightforward to to do our processing we do it at the telescope so I often we do it at the telescope so I often we do it at the telescope so I often take a shorter exposure first let's say take a shorter exposure first let's say take a shorter exposure first let's say 10 or 15 minutes uh so mostly when I do 10 or 15 minutes uh so mostly when I do 10 or 15 minutes uh so mostly when I do Discovery work we would just take a Discovery work we would just take a Discovery work we would just take a quick look Spectrum then we process it quick look Spectrum then we process it quick look Spectrum then we process it while we observe the next uh while we observe the next uh while we observe the next uh then we take a quick look we have what I then we take a quick look we have what I then we take a quick look we have what I call the summary plot it's it's a call the summary plot it's it's a call the summary plot it's it's a collection of little areas in the

collection of little areas in the collection of little areas in the spectrum that have the the key positions spectrum that have the the key positions spectrum that have the the key positions uh the positions of the key elements in uh the positions of the key elements in uh the positions of the key elements in it and it's kind of like reading the tea it and it's kind of like reading the tea it and it's kind of like reading the tea leaves I have stared at so many Spectra leaves I have stared at so many Spectra leaves I have stared at so many Spectra I just need to know I just need to see I just need to know I just need to see I just need to know I just need to see our summary plot and I can tell you our summary plot and I can tell you our summary plot and I can tell you exactly what the numbers are going to be exactly what the numbers are going to be exactly what the numbers are going to be awesome and also to tell if it's going awesome and also to tell if it's going awesome and also to tell if it's going to be promising to look at further to be promising to look at further to be promising to look at further exactly and so that's a thumbs up thumbs exactly and so that's a thumbs up thumbs exactly and so that's a thumbs up thumbs down down down uh you're worth my time uh you're worth my time uh you're worth my time or not in most cases it's not or it's or not in most cases it's not or it's or not in most cases it's not or it's good enough we can do a basic analysis good enough we can do a basic analysis good enough we can do a basic analysis maybe publish this as part of a larger maybe publish this as part of a larger maybe publish this as part of a larger sample just so you know we output that sample just so you know we output that sample just so you know we output that we have observed the star and and their we have observed the star and and their we have observed the star and and their basic nature that that's an important basic nature that that's an important basic nature that that's an important part to to publish as well part to to publish as well part to to publish as well um and uh yeah I had a I had a run so um and uh yeah I had a I had a run so um and uh yeah I had a I had a run so now we do remote observing I do all of now we do remote observing I do all of now we do remote observing I do all of this now from my home from my living this now from my home from my living this now from my home from my living room all night long um and um and um I often work with with colleagues so um I often work with with colleagues so um I often work with with colleagues so we we do it over zoom and we process the we we do it over zoom and we process the we we do it over zoom and we process the data we look at it same thing still and data we look at it same thing still and data we look at it same thing still and we we just found a star that we we just found a star that we we just found a star that um had a very low iron abundance and um had a very low iron abundance and um had a very low iron abundance and then we decided okay that looks then we decided okay that looks then we decided okay that looks interesting we're just gonna keep interesting we're just gonna keep interesting we're just gonna keep exposing so we'll talk more data on it exposing so we'll talk more data on it exposing so we'll talk more data on it on the spot and we're writing up the on the spot and we're writing up the on the spot and we're writing up the paper right now how do you know where to paper right now how do you know where to paper right now how do you know where to point the telescope it's not random point the telescope it's not random point the telescope it's not random there's a lot of work that goes into there's a lot of work that goes into there's a lot of work that goes into that that that um I began my career by um I began my career by um I began my career by answering trying to answer that question answering trying to answer that question answering trying to answer that question as in like doing the search process

as in like doing the search process as in like doing the search process that's why I called my my book that I've that's why I called my my book that I've that's why I called my my book that I've written some time ago searching for the written some time ago searching for the written some time ago searching for the oldest ass because oldest ass because oldest ass because searching is one thing it's very time searching is one thing it's very time searching is one thing it's very time consuming and then on top of that not consuming and then on top of that not consuming and then on top of that not everyone finds right and I often don't everyone finds right and I often don't everyone finds right and I often don't find but I keep searching because you find but I keep searching because you find but I keep searching because you know techniques have established that know techniques have established that know techniques have established that yes we can do it if we're just patient yes we can do it if we're just patient yes we can do it if we're just patient enough and keep going because it's a enough and keep going because it's a enough and keep going because it's a numbers game and that's often the case numbers game and that's often the case numbers game and that's often the case in science and that's something that not in science and that's something that not in science and that's something that not a not enough is talked about how tedious a not enough is talked about how tedious a not enough is talked about how tedious it is and how long it takes to get to it is and how long it takes to get to it is and how long it takes to get to that one that one that one a discovery right that that moves the a discovery right that that moves the a discovery right that that moves the field further and how difficult it is to field further and how difficult it is to field further and how difficult it is to believe that there is a thing to be believe that there is a thing to be believe that there is a thing to be discovered yes yes discovered yes yes discovered yes yes um if we have the saying I I learned um if we have the saying I I learned um if we have the saying I I learned this I think from my supervisor one star this I think from my supervisor one star this I think from my supervisor one star is a discovery is a discovery is a discovery two is a is a sample and three is a two is a is a sample and three is a two is a is a sample and three is a population so as soon as you found three population so as soon as you found three population so as soon as you found three of roughly the same kind you're done but of roughly the same kind you're done but of roughly the same kind you're done but you need to get there yeah probably at you need to get there yeah probably at you need to get there yeah probably at first is the hardest right yes but it first is the hardest right yes but it first is the hardest right yes but it kind of remains really hard and but the kind of remains really hard and but the kind of remains really hard and but the thing is that at past three many of us thing is that at past three many of us thing is that at past three many of us are okay we solved that problem are okay we solved that problem are okay we solved that problem we've done it three times so we can't do we've done it three times so we can't do we've done it three times so we can't do it that's a thing right that's a it that's a thing right that's a it that's a thing right that's a population three iron deficient Stars population three iron deficient Stars population three iron deficient Stars let's say right that's one puzzle piece let's say right that's one puzzle piece let's say right that's one puzzle piece now we can move on to the next thing

now we can move on to the next thing now we can move on to the next thing that's an indicator that there's many that's an indicator that there's many that's an indicator that there's many more of them yes potentially yes yes yes more of them yes potentially yes yes yes more of them yes potentially yes yes yes so to cut a long story short about the so to cut a long story short about the so to cut a long story short about the searching searching searching um we started early on with um we started early on with um we started early on with um what's called low resolution um what's called low resolution um what's called low resolution spectroscopy of many stars so for spectroscopy of many stars so for spectroscopy of many stars so for example my thesis work almost 20 years example my thesis work almost 20 years example my thesis work almost 20 years ago was piggybacking off ago was piggybacking off ago was piggybacking off um a quasa survey that had collected so um a quasa survey that had collected so um a quasa survey that had collected so quasars are basically giant supermassive quasars are basically giant supermassive quasars are basically giant supermassive black holes that are really far away so black holes that are really far away so black holes that are really far away so you only see a one big bright light you only see a one big bright light you only see a one big bright light point so it looks like a star but it's point so it looks like a star but it's point so it looks like a star but it's actually just a giant supermassive like actually just a giant supermassive like actually just a giant supermassive like all that outshines it's it's its own all that outshines it's it's its own all that outshines it's it's its own Galaxy Galaxy Galaxy and people had been trying to study and people had been trying to study and people had been trying to study those and they had taken little Spectra those and they had taken little Spectra those and they had taken little Spectra of of you know all things in the sky and of of you know all things in the sky and of of you know all things in the sky and it turns out oh you can fish out the it turns out oh you can fish out the it turns out oh you can fish out the actual stars from that and and look for actual stars from that and and look for actual stars from that and and look for certain signatures certain signatures certain signatures um that might indicate uh Low Middle um that might indicate uh Low Middle um that might indicate uh Low Middle City Star so it starts with low City Star so it starts with low City Star so it starts with low abundances abundances abundances um and so it was painstaking work to um and so it was painstaking work to um and so it was painstaking work to then take medium resolution spectroscopy then take medium resolution spectroscopy then take medium resolution spectroscopy to get a little bit more information and to get a little bit more information and to get a little bit more information and to use the approximations and to kind of to use the approximations and to kind of to use the approximations and to kind of get candidates that we can then get candidates that we can then get candidates that we can then eventually take to the big class like eventually take to the big class like eventually take to the big class like Magellan to get a high resolution Magellan to get a high resolution Magellan to get a high resolution Spectrum so we really see the dips of Spectrum so we really see the dips of Spectrum so we really see the dips of all the individual elements that then all the individual elements that then all the individual elements that then give us the final answer is it yay give us the final answer is it yay give us the final answer is it yay already already already um these days uh with another grad um these days uh with another grad um these days uh with another grad student I just I developed a new student I just I developed a new student I just I developed a new technique to use

technique to use technique to use um images actually of all the stars in um images actually of all the stars in um images actually of all the stars in the sky taken with very narrow filters the sky taken with very narrow filters the sky taken with very narrow filters so it's like you're wearing very so it's like you're wearing very so it's like you're wearing very specific glasses that only let so much specific glasses that only let so much specific glasses that only let so much light through and so we can do similar light through and so we can do similar light through and so we can do similar things things things through having several narrow band through having several narrow band through having several narrow band filters what we call it to fish out filters what we call it to fish out filters what we call it to fish out things that have you know no absorption things that have you know no absorption things that have you know no absorption over here so just the the straight line over here so just the the straight line over here so just the the straight line and then a little dip here so a little and then a little dip here so a little and then a little dip here so a little something there something there something there and that has proven fairly successful in and that has proven fairly successful in and that has proven fairly successful in recent years so looking at the entire recent years so looking at the entire recent years so looking at the entire looking at a broader regions of space looking at a broader regions of space looking at a broader regions of space that's right because these stars are a that's right because these stars are a that's right because these stars are a little bit like the needle in the little bit like the needle in the little bit like the needle in the haystack right there are not that many haystack right there are not that many haystack right there are not that many left over and the certainly the galaxy left over and the certainly the galaxy left over and the certainly the galaxy has made plenty of stars in between we has made plenty of stars in between we has made plenty of stars in between we need to comb through all of those need to comb through all of those need to comb through all of those um to to get to the goods yeah so we um to to get to the goods yeah so we um to to get to the goods yeah so we always start with millions and then work always start with millions and then work always start with millions and then work our way down and in the end we have like our way down and in the end we have like our way down and in the end we have like three good candidates I wonder how those three good candidates I wonder how those three good candidates I wonder how those ancient Stars feel that they were ancient Stars feel that they were ancient Stars feel that they were noticed they probably know that nobody noticed they probably know that nobody noticed they probably know that nobody pays attention pays attention pays attention no I'm just kidding we're all special no I'm just kidding we're all special no I'm just kidding we're all special right so understands it's good it's right so understands it's good it's right so understands it's good it's inspiring even if you're the outcast inspiring even if you're the outcast inspiring even if you're the outcast um in your pristine nature you still um in your pristine nature you still um in your pristine nature you still might nevertheless be noticed I'm hoping might nevertheless be noticed I'm hoping might nevertheless be noticed I'm hoping the same about humans if somebody's the same about humans if somebody's the same about humans if somebody's observing us observing us observing us um um um is there something else you could say is there something else you could say is there something else you could say that's that's that's about the challenges of this kind of about the challenges of this kind of about the challenges of this kind of high Precision measurement high Precision measurement high Precision measurement uh that you're doing uh that you're doing uh that you're doing so this kind of collection of data

so this kind of collection of data so this kind of collection of data looking looking looking trying to come trying to come trying to come pull out the signal from the noise out pull out the signal from the noise out pull out the signal from the noise out there there there well that's literally what we're doing well that's literally what we're doing well that's literally what we're doing in multiple ways actually so we find in multiple ways actually so we find in multiple ways actually so we find trying to find the needle in the trying to find the needle in the trying to find the needle in the haystack haystack haystack and then we find something and then it and then we find something and then it and then we find something and then it turns out turns out turns out it's just a little bit too faint to it's just a little bit too faint to it's just a little bit too faint to actually get the kind of data quality on actually get the kind of data quality on actually get the kind of data quality on it that we would like or that would it that we would like or that would it that we would like or that would would be warranted given the the would be warranted given the the would be warranted given the the potential of the Star right it's like so potential of the Star right it's like so potential of the Star right it's like so there's always noise there's always noise there's always noise there's always a little bit of noise and there's always a little bit of noise and there's always a little bit of noise and you have to try to say like what uh yeah you have to try to say like what uh yeah you have to try to say like what uh yeah how special is this when you're looking how special is this when you're looking how special is this when you're looking at the absorption line yeah how so the at the absorption line yeah how so the at the absorption line yeah how so the most iron Pro Stars their iron lines are most iron Pro Stars their iron lines are most iron Pro Stars their iron lines are so tiny that they're literally you know so tiny that they're literally you know so tiny that they're literally you know almost in the noise so you need an almost in the noise so you need an almost in the noise so you need an incredibly good data to make detections incredibly good data to make detections incredibly good data to make detections and and the funny thing is we're looking and and the funny thing is we're looking and and the funny thing is we're looking for the nothingness of let's say the for the nothingness of let's say the for the nothingness of let's say the iron lines but then we don't want iron lines but then we don't want iron lines but then we don't want nothing because if there's nothing in nothing because if there's nothing in nothing because if there's nothing in the Spectrum we can't measure anything the Spectrum we can't measure anything the Spectrum we can't measure anything we can only get an upper limit but we'd we can only get an upper limit but we'd we can only get an upper limit but we'd really like a measurement so we are really like a measurement so we are really like a measurement so we are looking for the the last little bit that looking for the the last little bit that looking for the the last little bit that you could possibly detect and that's the you could possibly detect and that's the you could possibly detect and that's the strong function of the brightness of the strong function of the brightness of the strong function of the brightness of the star because the telescopes have the star because the telescopes have the star because the telescopes have the size that they do that that's not going size that they do that that's not going size that they do that that's not going to change for a while hopefully to change for a while hopefully to change for a while hopefully eventually it will but it's going to be eventually it will but it's going to be eventually it will but it's going to be at least 10 years out at least 10 years out at least 10 years out um and so yes we'll often literally um and so yes we'll often literally um and so yes we'll often literally stuck in the noise because we can't make stuck in the noise because we can't make stuck in the noise because we can't make the measurement so actually the record the measurement so actually the record the measurement so actually the record holder for the most iron poster only has

holder for the most iron poster only has holder for the most iron poster only has an upper limit we can't get enough data an upper limit we can't get enough data an upper limit we can't get enough data on this to actually pinpoint a on this to actually pinpoint a on this to actually pinpoint a measurement to then take it to our measurement to then take it to our measurement to then take it to our Theory colleagues and say like give me Theory colleagues and say like give me Theory colleagues and say like give me this little iron out of your first star this little iron out of your first star this little iron out of your first star so it's a bit frustrating but also super so it's a bit frustrating but also super so it's a bit frustrating but also super exciting at the same time so let's go to exciting at the same time so let's go to exciting at the same time so let's go to both sides of that Spectrum what's uh both sides of that Spectrum what's uh both sides of that Spectrum what's uh what's like the most exciting Discovery what's like the most exciting Discovery what's like the most exciting Discovery to you personally where it's is there a to you personally where it's is there a to you personally where it's is there a moment you remember that you saw a piece moment you remember that you saw a piece moment you remember that you saw a piece of data and you kind of your heart of data and you kind of your heart of data and you kind of your heart skipped a bit skipped a bit skipped a bit um yeah yeah of course is it the is it um yeah yeah of course is it the is it um yeah yeah of course is it the is it uh he1327 that was that was definitely uh he1327 that was that was definitely uh he1327 that was that was definitely one of those moments I wasn't actually one of those moments I wasn't actually one of those moments I wasn't actually present at the telescope but we will present at the telescope but we will present at the telescope but we will send the data immediately for my send the data immediately for my send the data immediately for my colleague colleague colleague and we just looked at it and our eyes and we just looked at it and our eyes and we just looked at it and our eyes got really white and it's like oh my God got really white and it's like oh my God got really white and it's like oh my God this is this really what you think it is this is this really what you think it is this is this really what you think it is so we had to run some numbers and and it so we had to run some numbers and and it so we had to run some numbers and and it was and it these are magical little was and it these are magical little was and it these are magical little moments yeah the thing is moments yeah the thing is moments yeah the thing is you know often we we have false you know often we we have false you know often we we have false positives yeah and so there's always positives yeah and so there's always positives yeah and so there's always this this kind of period and often it's this this kind of period and often it's this this kind of period and often it's it's I don't know 10 15 minutes where it's I don't know 10 15 minutes where it's I don't know 10 15 minutes where you need to make some tests to kind of you need to make some tests to kind of you need to make some tests to kind of make the decision is this really make the decision is this really make the decision is this really something I should keep observing now is something I should keep observing now is something I should keep observing now is this really as good as I think or or am this really as good as I think or or am this really as good as I think or or am I being fooled by something right so I being fooled by something right so I being fooled by something right so actually if you take a spectrum of a actually if you take a spectrum of a actually if you take a spectrum of a white dwarf a white dwarf is the white dwarf a white dwarf is the white dwarf a white dwarf is the leftover core of a star like the sun leftover core of a star like the sun leftover core of a star like the sun that has gone extinct

that has gone extinct that has gone extinct and why dwarves have lost all their and why dwarves have lost all their and why dwarves have lost all their outer atmosphere so it's just the outer atmosphere so it's just the outer atmosphere so it's just the hydrogen helium core so they look like a hydrogen helium core so they look like a hydrogen helium core so they look like a metal poor star because that's only metal poor star because that's only metal poor star because that's only hydrogen helium left right but the hydrogen helium left right but the hydrogen helium left right but the hydrogen lines that you can see in the hydrogen lines that you can see in the hydrogen lines that you can see in the spectrum of our stars and of the white spectrum of our stars and of the white spectrum of our stars and of the white dwarfs a little bit wider than normal so dwarfs a little bit wider than normal so dwarfs a little bit wider than normal so you need to have a good eye just to you need to have a good eye just to you need to have a good eye just to check you know does this look a little check you know does this look a little check you know does this look a little bit wider than us is this a white dwarf bit wider than us is this a white dwarf bit wider than us is this a white dwarf who's fooling me here right and so it's who's fooling me here right and so it's who's fooling me here right and so it's like this moment it's like oh my God like this moment it's like oh my God like this moment it's like oh my God it's just minutes of nervousness yes yes it's just minutes of nervousness yes yes it's just minutes of nervousness yes yes and sometimes you know it's it's a dud and sometimes you know it's it's a dud and sometimes you know it's it's a dud and sometimes it's not what's been uh and sometimes it's not what's been uh and sometimes it's not what's been uh what's been a big that you remember what's been a big that you remember what's been a big that you remember heartbreak like a painful low point heartbreak like a painful low point heartbreak like a painful low point is it all leading up to the first is it is it all leading up to the first is it is it all leading up to the first is it all about HG 1327 again just the leading all about HG 1327 again just the leading all about HG 1327 again just the leading up to it or has there been like a up to it or has there been like a up to it or has there been like a uh yeah has there been like low points uh yeah has there been like low points uh yeah has there been like low points in this search in this search in this search um that's a good question um that's a good question um that's a good question I mean you know it starts with mundane I mean you know it starts with mundane I mean you know it starts with mundane things as in like you you want your things as in like you you want your things as in like you you want your telescope time you travel there telescope time you travel there telescope time you travel there and the weather is completely cloudy it and the weather is completely cloudy it and the weather is completely cloudy it rains and you you had three nights which rains and you you had three nights which rains and you you had three nights which is a lot and you go home empty-handed is a lot and you go home empty-handed is a lot and you go home empty-handed so that's definitely a low point so that's definitely a low point so that's definitely a low point [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] uh probably not what you were thinking uh probably not what you were thinking uh probably not what you were thinking of uh but there is a certain of uh but there is a certain of uh but there is a certain occupational hazard to it which requires occupational hazard to it which requires occupational hazard to it which requires a kind of a kind of a kind of resilience and a patience yeah and you resilience and a patience yeah and you resilience and a patience yeah and you just gotta learn to to live with it um just gotta learn to to live with it um just gotta learn to to live with it um coming back to reticulum too actually coming back to reticulum too actually coming back to reticulum too actually you know that little dwarf Galaxy that

you know that little dwarf Galaxy that you know that little dwarf Galaxy that was a run that we had and the weather was a run that we had and the weather was a run that we had and the weather was incredibly bad and I had sent my was incredibly bad and I had sent my was incredibly bad and I had sent my student there student there student there um um um and I was at home and he calls me at 2AM and I was at home and he calls me at 2AM and I was at home and he calls me at 2AM and he was like Anna I think I observed and he was like Anna I think I observed and he was like Anna I think I observed the wrong stuff I'm so sorry the wrong stuff I'm so sorry the wrong stuff I'm so sorry there's this line there this europium there's this line there this europium there's this line there this europium line and it looks like a metal Rich star line and it looks like a metal Rich star line and it looks like a metal Rich star and I was like it's cool we all make and I was like it's cool we all make and I was like it's cool we all make mistakes send me the data send me that mistakes send me the data send me that mistakes send me the data send me that summary plot summary plot summary plot and so I look at it you know I was like and so I look at it you know I was like and so I look at it you know I was like super tired and it's like super tired and it's like super tired and it's like I I can't really tell it doesn't look I I can't really tell it doesn't look I I can't really tell it doesn't look wrong but I can't tell you right now wrong but I can't tell you right now wrong but I can't tell you right now that it's right either so why don't you that it's right either so why don't you that it's right either so why don't you go to the next Target go to the next Target go to the next Target he calls me back an hour later you know he calls me back an hour later you know he calls me back an hour later you know it looks just the same it looks just the same it looks just the same what am I supposed to do what am I supposed to do what am I supposed to do and then I joked well maybe we found an and then I joked well maybe we found an and then I joked well maybe we found an R process Galaxy R process Galaxy R process Galaxy let's go to the next one and the weather let's go to the next one and the weather let's go to the next one and the weather was degrading was degrading was degrading um and so to cut a long story short um and so to cut a long story short um and so to cut a long story short we had to come so he was observing the we had to come so he was observing the we had to come so he was observing the right stores it was an r-process Galaxy right stores it was an r-process Galaxy right stores it was an r-process Galaxy the first one we had ever discovered the first one we had ever discovered the first one we had ever discovered totally totally totally and I mean unpredicted we had no idea and I mean unpredicted we had no idea and I mean unpredicted we had no idea that this was a thing I mean you know that this was a thing I mean you know that this was a thing I mean you know of course we we thought that you know of course we we thought that you know of course we we thought that you know such a thing might possibly exist such a thing might possibly exist such a thing might possibly exist because why not right Neutron summer because why not right Neutron summer because why not right Neutron summer just happened somewhere uh crazy

just happened somewhere uh crazy just happened somewhere uh crazy supernovae probably too but we were not supernovae probably too but we were not supernovae probably too but we were not prepared in that moment to to find this prepared in that moment to to find this prepared in that moment to to find this thing thing thing and and and in the end the weather was getting worse in the end the weather was getting worse in the end the weather was getting worse and worse and we wanted to see how many and worse and we wanted to see how many and worse and we wanted to see how many our processors are in this galaxy so we our processors are in this galaxy so we our processors are in this galaxy so we managed managed managed by a hairline to observe the nine by a hairline to observe the nine by a hairline to observe the nine brightest stars but the data quality was brightest stars but the data quality was brightest stars but the data quality was atrocious and weather affects the data atrocious and weather affects the data atrocious and weather affects the data quality yes absolutely because these quality yes absolutely because these quality yes absolutely because these were really faint Stars were really faint Stars were really faint Stars um so we we were really lucky by making um so we we were really lucky by making um so we we were really lucky by making a very tight strategy of getting the a very tight strategy of getting the a very tight strategy of getting the absolute bare minimum for all the stores absolute bare minimum for all the stores absolute bare minimum for all the stores so we could at least take a a very crude so we could at least take a a very crude so we could at least take a a very crude look is it a yay or is an a we couldn't look is it a yay or is an a we couldn't look is it a yay or is an a we couldn't even say yes or no just just to get an even say yes or no just just to get an even say yes or no just just to get an idea because we needed to know idea because we needed to know idea because we needed to know why was that important because why was that important because why was that important because we could only observe this system again we could only observe this system again we could only observe this system again nine months later so there's always a nine months later so there's always a nine months later so there's always a window of observation yes it was setting window of observation yes it was setting window of observation yes it was setting this was our chance and it was going this was our chance and it was going this was our chance and it was going away with the clouds you know away with the clouds you know away with the clouds you know that was super high stakes but we we we that was super high stakes but we we we that was super high stakes but we we we just made it like really it was just made it like really it was just made it like really it was almost impossible and it was just the almost impossible and it was just the almost impossible and it was just the the thing is this is such a the thing is this is such a the thing is this is such a serendipitous moment in a serendipitous serendipitous moment in a serendipitous serendipitous moment in a serendipitous moment the enhancement of these heavy moment the enhancement of these heavy moment the enhancement of these heavy elements was so strong that even in this elements was so strong that even in this elements was so strong that even in this really crappy data we could still see really crappy data we could still see really crappy data we could still see the enhancement

the enhancement the enhancement right the absorption was so strong right the absorption was so strong right the absorption was so strong they're stuck out of the noise if the they're stuck out of the noise if the they're stuck out of the noise if the enhancement wouldn't have been as strong enhancement wouldn't have been as strong enhancement wouldn't have been as strong we would not have been able to say we would not have been able to say we would not have been able to say anything because we wouldn't have been anything because we wouldn't have been anything because we wouldn't have been able to tell able to tell able to tell but because it was so extreme it lent us but because it was so extreme it lent us but because it was so extreme it lent us a hand despite the weather and all to a hand despite the weather and all to a hand despite the weather and all to say like yes this is it say like yes this is it say like yes this is it so that was quite the night so that was quite the night so that was quite the night look that means a lot of this is just look that means a lot of this is just look that means a lot of this is just luck luck luck so that was the first our process Galaxy so that was the first our process Galaxy so that was the first our process Galaxy discovered yes I didn't sleep all that discovered yes I didn't sleep all that discovered yes I didn't sleep all that much um do you have hope are you excited um do you have hope are you excited about uh James Webb's Space Telescope about uh James Webb's Space Telescope about uh James Webb's Space Telescope and other telescopes in the future that and other telescopes in the future that and other telescopes in the future that uh increase the resolution and the uh increase the resolution and the uh increase the resolution and the Precision of what can be detected out Precision of what can be detected out Precision of what can be detected out there absolutely there absolutely there absolutely um database is fantastic already I am um database is fantastic already I am um database is fantastic already I am not planning to use it personally not planning to use it personally not planning to use it personally although I think I'm on one or two although I think I'm on one or two although I think I'm on one or two observing proposals actually because observing proposals actually because observing proposals actually because similar to what we already spoke about similar to what we already spoke about similar to what we already spoke about we're interested in the same thing we're we're interested in the same thing we're we're interested in the same thing we're just kind of looking at the different just kind of looking at the different just kind of looking at the different sides of the fence right I have my my sides of the fence right I have my my sides of the fence right I have my my old surviving stars and I concoct these old surviving stars and I concoct these old surviving stars and I concoct these little stories about what the earliest little stories about what the earliest little stories about what the earliest galaxies may have looked like what what galaxies may have looked like what what galaxies may have looked like what what the objects were that contributed you the objects were that contributed you the objects were that contributed you know energy and and elements and all know energy and and elements and all know energy and and elements and all these things and uh my jwst colleagues these things and uh my jwst colleagues these things and uh my jwst colleagues they try to detect some of these they try to detect some of these they try to detect some of these earliest photons from these earliest earliest photons from these earliest earliest photons from these earliest systems to look at the energetics and systems to look at the energetics and systems to look at the energetics and and other things you know what was there and other things you know what was there and other things you know what was there how many these kind of things right so

how many these kind of things right so how many these kind of things right so together we're trying to to explore this together we're trying to to explore this together we're trying to to explore this first billion years first billion years first billion years but we do it in very complementary ways but we do it in very complementary ways but we do it in very complementary ways and so I'm I'm very excited to to see and so I'm I'm very excited to to see and so I'm I'm very excited to to see what what they can come up with and how what what they can come up with and how what what they can come up with and how that helps me to inform my stories that helps me to inform my stories that helps me to inform my stories better and more comprehensively better and more comprehensively better and more comprehensively uh what do you think is the future uh what do you think is the future uh what do you think is the future of the of the field of Stellar of the of the field of Stellar of the of the field of Stellar archeology how much can we archeology how much can we archeology how much can we maybe what are the limits of our our maybe what are the limits of our our maybe what are the limits of our our understanding of this first billion understanding of this first billion understanding of this first billion years of our uterus um well obviously lots of limitations in um well obviously lots of limitations in the sense that I always say I have a the sense that I always say I have a the sense that I always say I have a metal poor star for any of your metal poor star for any of your metal poor star for any of your questions questions questions because there are so many different because there are so many different because there are so many different kinds out there kinds out there kinds out there um and we still find new patterns um and we still find new patterns um and we still find new patterns sometimes right and there needs to be an sometimes right and there needs to be an sometimes right and there needs to be an explanation the question is is it explanation the question is is it explanation the question is is it ultimately just one quirky star or is it ultimately just one quirky star or is it ultimately just one quirky star or is it two or is it three right is it is it a two or is it three right is it is it a two or is it three right is it is it a sample is it a population so we haven't sample is it a population so we haven't sample is it a population so we haven't concluded that kind of work yet so every concluded that kind of work yet so every concluded that kind of work yet so every metal poor star metal poor star metal poor star is the kind of data point that you can is the kind of data point that you can is the kind of data point that you can use to improve the quality of your model use to improve the quality of your model use to improve the quality of your model of how the evolution of the early of how the evolution of the early of how the evolution of the early Universe yes yes and I would say we're Universe yes yes and I would say we're Universe yes yes and I would say we're we've made huge progress over the last we've made huge progress over the last we've made huge progress over the last 20 years when I joined that field it was 20 years when I joined that field it was 20 years when I joined that field it was in its infancy and there was this in its infancy and there was this in its infancy and there was this serendipitous discovery of that first serendipitous discovery of that first serendipitous discovery of that first second generation star second generation star second generation star and we have filled in the canvas a great and we have filled in the canvas a great and we have filled in the canvas a great deal since then and this is what I have deal since then and this is what I have deal since then and this is what I have greatly enjoyed about doing so because greatly enjoyed about doing so because greatly enjoyed about doing so because there was so much Discovery potential

there was so much Discovery potential there was so much Discovery potential and it's been it's been dying down a and it's been it's been dying down a and it's been it's been dying down a little bit because of all the progress little bit because of all the progress little bit because of all the progress um it's gonna it's gonna it's on on the um it's gonna it's gonna it's on on the um it's gonna it's gonna it's on on the up and coming again because there's so up and coming again because there's so up and coming again because there's so many large spectroscopic surveys in the many large spectroscopic surveys in the many large spectroscopic surveys in the works now that will just provide a works now that will just provide a works now that will just provide a different level of data that we haven't different level of data that we haven't different level of data that we haven't had before I'm sort of of these older had before I'm sort of of these older had before I'm sort of of these older generation I have only very few generation I have only very few generation I have only very few colleagues I work in small teams and I colleagues I work in small teams and I colleagues I work in small teams and I observe every single star myself observe every single star myself observe every single star myself that you know I whatever I can I do that you know I whatever I can I do that you know I whatever I can I do myself I don't generally take other myself I don't generally take other myself I don't generally take other people's data at least not certainly not people's data at least not certainly not people's data at least not certainly not in the end stage and and uh you know I'm in the end stage and and uh you know I'm in the end stage and and uh you know I'm not a big data kind of person although not a big data kind of person although not a big data kind of person although we're all headed that that way I I we're all headed that that way I I we're all headed that that way I I certainly use uh data from the Gaia certainly use uh data from the Gaia certainly use uh data from the Gaia astrometric satellite for the kinematics astrometric satellite for the kinematics astrometric satellite for the kinematics for example but that's personally a new for example but that's personally a new for example but that's personally a new thing for me to to use sort of Big Sky thing for me to to use sort of Big Sky thing for me to to use sort of Big Sky surveys surveys surveys um that are available um that are available um that are available um so it's still very sort of hand grown um so it's still very sort of hand grown um so it's still very sort of hand grown field you know where we do our field you know where we do our field you know where we do our individual observations individual observations individual observations um have enjoyed that a lot but that's um have enjoyed that a lot but that's um have enjoyed that a lot but that's about to change so one star at a time about to change so one star at a time about to change so one star at a time yes I mean there's power to that to yes I mean there's power to that to yes I mean there's power to that to build up intuition of the early Universe build up intuition of the early Universe build up intuition of the early Universe by looking one star at a time yeah and by looking one star at a time yeah and by looking one star at a time yeah and and this is how you can really drill and this is how you can really drill and this is how you can really drill down on the questions that you have down on the questions that you have down on the questions that you have right because you control what data you right because you control what data you right because you control what data you get get get um otherwise you have the data that you um otherwise you have the data that you um otherwise you have the data that you have right you get what you get and you have right you get what you get and you have right you get what you get and you don't get upset don't get upset don't get upset I don't like that I'm a little bit

I don't like that I'm a little bit I don't like that I'm a little bit snobby I I really like to formulate my snobby I I really like to formulate my snobby I I really like to formulate my questions go to the telescope and then questions go to the telescope and then questions go to the telescope and then come what may I will try to get it and I come what may I will try to get it and I come what may I will try to get it and I also develop the intuition of where the also develop the intuition of where the also develop the intuition of where the data can be relied upon and what it data can be relied upon and what it data can be relied upon and what it can't and all the different quirks of can't and all the different quirks of can't and all the different quirks of the data and all that kind of stuff yeah the data and all that kind of stuff yeah the data and all that kind of stuff yeah sometimes a lot is lost sometimes a lot is lost sometimes a lot is lost in the aggregation of the noisy data in the aggregation of the noisy data in the aggregation of the noisy data yeah yeah yeah and and that's always the yeah yeah yeah and and that's always the yeah yeah yeah and and that's always the danger if you have someone else's data danger if you have someone else's data danger if you have someone else's data that you just don't really understand that you just don't really understand that you just don't really understand the you know the limitations and the you know the limitations and the you know the limitations and completeness things how certain things completeness things how certain things completeness things how certain things were set up and you know you get out were set up and you know you get out were set up and you know you get out what you put in so I'm I'm really what you put in so I'm I'm really what you put in so I'm I'm really particular about that and it certainly particular about that and it certainly particular about that and it certainly paid off for me that's one of the main paid off for me that's one of the main paid off for me that's one of the main Notions that I try to teach in my Notions that I try to teach in my Notions that I try to teach in my classes and to my my students that classes and to my my students that classes and to my my students that you need to be able to formulate your you need to be able to formulate your you need to be able to formulate your quest question really well because quest question really well because quest question really well because otherwise you're going to get an answer otherwise you're going to get an answer otherwise you're going to get an answer to a different question but you won't to a different question but you won't to a different question but you won't notice that it had that the goal post notice that it had that the goal post notice that it had that the goal post has shifted in the meantime right so has shifted in the meantime right so has shifted in the meantime right so your interpretation can only be as good your interpretation can only be as good your interpretation can only be as good as the question if you need to change as the question if you need to change as the question if you need to change your question that's cool do it your question that's cool do it your question that's cool do it but then you know it needs to pair up but then you know it needs to pair up but then you know it needs to pair up with your interpretation again and so with your interpretation again and so with your interpretation again and so knowing really being in the know about knowing really being in the know about knowing really being in the know about every step of what happens that relates every step of what happens that relates every step of what happens that relates to Quality results I think that's why I to Quality results I think that's why I to Quality results I think that's why I have sometimes a little trouble with have sometimes a little trouble with have sometimes a little trouble with with sort of big data and statistical with sort of big data and statistical with sort of big data and statistical analysis yes on average that's true I'm analysis yes on average that's true I'm analysis yes on average that's true I'm not debating that but I I'm the kind of not debating that but I I'm the kind of not debating that but I I'm the kind of person I like to look at the outlier so person I like to look at the outlier so person I like to look at the outlier so not the bulk but you know the special

not the bulk but you know the special not the bulk but you know the special ones and they just need to be treated in ones and they just need to be treated in ones and they just need to be treated in a different way and there needs to be an a different way and there needs to be an a different way and there needs to be an acknowledgment of that different ways acknowledgment of that different ways acknowledgment of that different ways for different things so uh big data can for different things so uh big data can for different things so uh big data can look at uh divorce rates look at uh divorce rates look at uh divorce rates and uh perhaps you and I are more and uh perhaps you and I are more and uh perhaps you and I are more interested in the individual love interested in the individual love interested in the individual love stories yes um so um so I don't know if it's possible to say but I don't know if it's possible to say but I don't know if it's possible to say but what do you think is the big discoveries what do you think is the big discoveries what do you think is the big discoveries that are waiting that are waiting that are waiting uh is it on the different dynamics of uh is it on the different dynamics of uh is it on the different dynamics of the yield the yield the yield the common narrative the common story of the common narrative the common story of the common narrative the common story of how some of these metal poor stars are how some of these metal poor stars are how some of these metal poor stars are formed formed formed is it where are the discoveries in this is it where are the discoveries in this is it where are the discoveries in this field that you think will come field that you think will come field that you think will come I think the individual discoveries are I think the individual discoveries are I think the individual discoveries are actually actually actually we've made most of those certainly we've made most of those certainly we've made most of those certainly through individual Stars through individual Stars through individual Stars um finding yet another second generation um finding yet another second generation um finding yet another second generation size incredibly important for me but size incredibly important for me but size incredibly important for me but isn't isn't really going to move the isn't isn't really going to move the isn't isn't really going to move the needle needle needle finding 50 of them or 100 of them that finding 50 of them or 100 of them that finding 50 of them or 100 of them that would move the needle but that's in would move the needle but that's in would move the needle but that's in order or two magnitudes up order or two magnitudes up order or two magnitudes up and new search techniques and new uh and new search techniques and new uh and new search techniques and new uh surveys may enable that but would you surveys may enable that but would you surveys may enable that but would you still call that a discovery still call that a discovery still call that a discovery right so that's just a scale that's a right so that's just a scale that's a right so that's just a scale that's a scale yes so I think about it more like scale yes so I think about it more like scale yes so I think about it more like literally of the puzzle let's say you literally of the puzzle let's say you literally of the puzzle let's say you have a thousand piece puzzle and you have a thousand piece puzzle and you have a thousand piece puzzle and you know you have 900 pieces in there know you have 900 pieces in there know you have 900 pieces in there if you're a person like me I want to get

if you're a person like me I want to get if you're a person like me I want to get to the last ones I'm not gonna leave it to the last ones I'm not gonna leave it to the last ones I'm not gonna leave it it's like okay I see broadly what this it's like okay I see broadly what this it's like okay I see broadly what this is going to look like right I'm done now is going to look like right I'm done now is going to look like right I'm done now no I want to get to the last one no I want to get to the last one no I want to get to the last one so is the picture globally going to so is the picture globally going to so is the picture globally going to change no change no change no are we going to figure out all the are we going to figure out all the are we going to figure out all the details and how it really works yes details and how it really works yes details and how it really works yes right so really careful getting detail right so really careful getting detail right so really careful getting detail into it the the ancient uh the ancient into it the the ancient uh the ancient into it the the ancient uh the ancient stars of our universe yeah because I stars of our universe yeah because I stars of our universe yeah because I think that's what many of us scientists think that's what many of us scientists think that's what many of us scientists are a real little bit detailed obsessed are a real little bit detailed obsessed are a real little bit detailed obsessed but I think that's that's our job too but I think that's that's our job too but I think that's that's our job too right to really kind of make it airtight right to really kind of make it airtight right to really kind of make it airtight to really walk away saying I fully to really walk away saying I fully to really walk away saying I fully understand this not just broadly understand this not just broadly understand this not just broadly but you know I really know we really but you know I really know we really but you know I really know we really know now and so more and more of that is know now and so more and more of that is know now and so more and more of that is going to happen going to happen going to happen um and so I think this is probably true um and so I think this is probably true um and so I think this is probably true across astronomy these individual across astronomy these individual across astronomy these individual 10 Sigma discoveries become less and 10 Sigma discoveries become less and 10 Sigma discoveries become less and less less less if they were easy we would have made if they were easy we would have made if they were easy we would have made them already right which means we have them already right which means we have them already right which means we have made many of them but really filling in made many of them but really filling in made many of them but really filling in the details is is is is is the next sort the details is is is is is the next sort the details is is is is is the next sort of level of Discovery maybe we need to of level of Discovery maybe we need to of level of Discovery maybe we need to find a new word for that find a new word for that find a new word for that um um um the hopes and expectations that go along the hopes and expectations that go along the hopes and expectations that go along with the word Discovery are so enormous with the word Discovery are so enormous with the word Discovery are so enormous we we may not always be able to live up we we may not always be able to live up we we may not always be able to live up to that but it doesn't mean that we're to that but it doesn't mean that we're to that but it doesn't mean that we're not finding out new things it's just a

not finding out new things it's just a not finding out new things it's just a different kind of quality because the different kind of quality because the different kind of quality because the questions have shifted you close one questions have shifted you close one questions have shifted you close one door suddenly that 10 new open doors door suddenly that 10 new open doors door suddenly that 10 new open doors that that we want to explore and March that that we want to explore and March that that we want to explore and March through and that's the you know finding through and that's the you know finding through and that's the you know finding these last puzzle pieces here and there these last puzzle pieces here and there these last puzzle pieces here and there that Miri make it airtight so there's a that Miri make it airtight so there's a that Miri make it airtight so there's a lot of value a lot of power and Beauty lot of value a lot of power and Beauty lot of value a lot of power and Beauty to the discovery to the discovery to the discovery in the big picture of our universe and in the big picture of our universe and in the big picture of our universe and in the details yeah we need both in the details yeah we need both in the details yeah we need both absolutely absolutely absolutely uh perhaps drifting into the uh perhaps drifting into the uh perhaps drifting into the philosophical uh let me ask about the philosophical uh let me ask about the philosophical uh let me ask about the Big Bang as we kind of encroach onto it Big Bang as we kind of encroach onto it Big Bang as we kind of encroach onto it so your work is kind of taking steps so your work is kind of taking steps so your work is kind of taking steps back through time in a weird way back through time in a weird way back through time in a weird way do you think we'll get to deeper and do you think we'll get to deeper and do you think we'll get to deeper and deeper understand deeper understand deeper understand the really really early days of the Big the really really early days of the Big the really really early days of the Big Bang Bang Bang and um the philosophical question do you and um the philosophical question do you and um the philosophical question do you think we'll be able to understand what think we'll be able to understand what think we'll be able to understand what was before the Big Bang was before the Big Bang was before the Big Bang or why the Big Bang happened you think or why the Big Bang happened you think or why the Big Bang happened you think about that stuff about that stuff about that stuff um not with stars For Better or For um not with stars For Better or For um not with stars For Better or For Worse because you know Stars only probe Worse because you know Stars only probe Worse because you know Stars only probe the time when they were formed and the the time when they were formed and the the time when they were formed and the Big Bang is surely before then I mean I Big Bang is surely before then I mean I Big Bang is surely before then I mean I I often talk to my students about the I often talk to my students about the I often talk to my students about the difference between math and physics let difference between math and physics let difference between math and physics let me give you an example um we talked me give you an example um we talked me give you an example um we talked earlier about 80 1523 and you know I I earlier about 80 1523 and you know I I earlier about 80 1523 and you know I I was happy to to share with you that I was happy to to share with you that I was happy to to share with you that I measure thorium and uranium but I measure thorium and uranium but I measure thorium and uranium but I actually didn't quite close that Loop so actually didn't quite close that Loop so actually didn't quite close that Loop so we we did this to try to attempt to we we did this to try to attempt to we we did this to try to attempt to calculate an age for these Stars right

calculate an age for these Stars right calculate an age for these Stars right um but they rely on us knowing how the r um but they rely on us knowing how the r um but they rely on us knowing how the r process works how these elements are process works how these elements are process works how these elements are created where it happens and then how created where it happens and then how created where it happens and then how those elements get dispersed into the those elements get dispersed into the those elements get dispersed into the gas and end up in the next Generation gas and end up in the next Generation gas and end up in the next Generation store so quite a few question marks so store so quite a few question marks so store so quite a few question marks so that's how we got to the age of 13.2 that's how we got to the age of 13.2 that's how we got to the age of 13.2 billion years this is probably not billion years this is probably not billion years this is probably not accurate but this is the best accurate but this is the best accurate but this is the best calculation we could do calculation we could do calculation we could do um and uh the reason why I'm bringing um and uh the reason why I'm bringing um and uh the reason why I'm bringing this up is that that was actually the this up is that that was actually the this up is that that was actually the average of multiple average of multiple average of multiple um Elemental ratios that each gave a um Elemental ratios that each gave a um Elemental ratios that each gave a certain age and then we average that certain age and then we average that certain age and then we average that because For Better or For Worse this is because For Better or For Worse this is because For Better or For Worse this is the best we can do so some of these the best we can do so some of these the best we can do so some of these numbers said oh this star is 15 billion numbers said oh this star is 15 billion numbers said oh this star is 15 billion years old and then others said oh this years old and then others said oh this years old and then others said oh this is 10 billion years old and so I often is 10 billion years old and so I often is 10 billion years old and so I often use that in my class to say like what's the good news and what's the bad what's the good news and what's the bad news here some ratio said 15 something news here some ratio said 15 something news here some ratio said 15 something 10 right is 15 correct 10 right is 15 correct 10 right is 15 correct and then I asked to ask them and some and then I asked to ask them and some and then I asked to ask them and some people will say something people will say something people will say something and so the the thing here is that it's and so the the thing here is that it's and so the the thing here is that it's an absolutely correct calculation given an absolutely correct calculation given an absolutely correct calculation given the mathematical and physical model that the mathematical and physical model that the mathematical and physical model that we constructed but does it make sense no we constructed but does it make sense no we constructed but does it make sense no it doesn't if we believe the universe is it doesn't if we believe the universe is it doesn't if we believe the universe is 13.8 billion years old 13.8 billion years old 13.8 billion years old 15 is is ridiculous yet it is correct 15 is is ridiculous yet it is correct 15 is is ridiculous yet it is correct isn't that interesting correct from a isn't that interesting correct from a isn't that interesting correct from a mathematics perspective it is not mathematics perspective it is not mathematics perspective it is not incorrect because this is what I

incorrect because this is what I incorrect because this is what I calculated nobody made a mistake now we calculated nobody made a mistake now we calculated nobody made a mistake now we can question whether that's a good model can question whether that's a good model can question whether that's a good model but that's that's a separate issue so but that's that's a separate issue so but that's that's a separate issue so you're saying physicists are much closer you're saying physicists are much closer you're saying physicists are much closer to truth than mathematicians well it to truth than mathematicians well it to truth than mathematicians well it depends yeah sometimes yes and sometimes depends yeah sometimes yes and sometimes depends yeah sometimes yes and sometimes no right so yeah what our job as no right so yeah what our job as no right so yeah what our job as physicist is is to take the mathematical physicist is is to take the mathematical physicist is is to take the mathematical model calculate our numbers and then ask model calculate our numbers and then ask model calculate our numbers and then ask the question does this make sense right the question does this make sense right the question does this make sense right now now now in the case of 15 it doesn't but we took in the case of 15 it doesn't but we took in the case of 15 it doesn't but we took the average anyway because the average anyway because the average anyway because that was the the best we could do right that was the the best we could do right that was the the best we could do right so all right let's put that aside let's so all right let's put that aside let's so all right let's put that aside let's apply the same sort of thinking to the apply the same sort of thinking to the apply the same sort of thinking to the Big Bang right math can tell us things Big Bang right math can tell us things Big Bang right math can tell us things that we as physicists cannot grasp that we as physicists cannot grasp that we as physicists cannot grasp because it doesn't make sense to us now because it doesn't make sense to us now because it doesn't make sense to us now in the case of the big band that's big in the case of the big band that's big in the case of the big band that's big bang that's a special case because we bang that's a special case because we bang that's a special case because we don't actually know what's supposed to don't actually know what's supposed to don't actually know what's supposed to make sense yeah and this is where things make sense yeah and this is where things make sense yeah and this is where things get interesting but this is where math get interesting but this is where math get interesting but this is where math will ultimately be the winner because we will ultimately be the winner because we will ultimately be the winner because we can no longer say this makes sense or can no longer say this makes sense or can no longer say this makes sense or this doesn't make sense because the this doesn't make sense because the this doesn't make sense because the physics is broken down but math breaks physics is broken down but math breaks physics is broken down but math breaks down too in the singularity of things down too in the singularity of things down too in the singularity of things well or no depending on who you ask okay well or no depending on who you ask okay well or no depending on who you ask okay sure sure this is this is the current sure sure this is this is the current sure sure this is this is the current question right how far how much further question right how far how much further question right how far how much further can we push math let's say to the front can we push math let's say to the front can we push math let's say to the front of the Big Bang if there is such a thing of the Big Bang if there is such a thing of the Big Bang if there is such a thing um what's the front in the back what's um what's the front in the back what's um what's the front in the back what's the front before the Big Bang the front the front before the Big Bang the front the front before the Big Bang the front okay

so how far can we let the math go before so how far can we let the math go before that stops to make sense right and I that stops to make sense right and I that stops to make sense right and I don't know what the answer is to that don't know what the answer is to that don't know what the answer is to that but it's it's really cool that because but it's it's really cool that because but it's it's really cool that because math doesn't have is not limited by of math doesn't have is not limited by of math doesn't have is not limited by of our physical nature our physical nature our physical nature it can probably go a little bit further it can probably go a little bit further it can probably go a little bit further than the physics yeah right and math can than the physics yeah right and math can than the physics yeah right and math can go into uh go into uh go into uh more Dimensions than four dimensions more Dimensions than four dimensions more Dimensions than four dimensions comfortably and it's it's judgment free comfortably and it's it's judgment free comfortably and it's it's judgment free because it just calculates things on its because it just calculates things on its because it just calculates things on its own whereas as physicists we are so own whereas as physicists we are so own whereas as physicists we are so judgmental yeah this makes sense this judgmental yeah this makes sense this judgmental yeah this makes sense this doesn't make sense right it doesn't get doesn't make sense right it doesn't get doesn't make sense right it doesn't get any worse it's such a beautiful dance any worse it's such a beautiful dance any worse it's such a beautiful dance it's such a uh it's so amazing that it's such a uh it's so amazing that it's such a uh it's so amazing that through this dance you can explore the through this dance you can explore the through this dance you can explore the origins of the universe origins of the universe origins of the universe like like like doesn't the Big Bang just blow your mind doesn't the Big Bang just blow your mind doesn't the Big Bang just blow your mind that this thing has just started from a that this thing has just started from a that this thing has just started from a point point point yeah and now we're here yeah yeah yeah yeah and now we're here yeah yeah yeah yeah and now we're here yeah yeah yeah hydrogen and helium and then all the hydrogen and helium and then all the hydrogen and helium and then all the stuff you're studying stuff you're studying stuff you're studying I mean this this this evolution of I mean this this this evolution of I mean this this this evolution of chemistry created chemistry created chemistry created humans humans humans and we're here talking and we're here talking and we're here talking and there's a lot more to the story and there's a lot more to the story and there's a lot more to the story it's amazing yeah yeah yeah uh it's amazing yeah yeah yeah uh it's amazing yeah yeah yeah uh and this kind of March that you're doing and this kind of March that you're doing and this kind of March that you're doing is observing data is observing data is observing data and is there and is there and is there foreign foreign foreign you're looking at old light on old data you're looking at old light on old data you're looking at old light on old data but only a few thousand years right just but only a few thousand years right just but only a few thousand years right just a few thousand that's that's the a few thousand that's that's the a few thousand that's that's the difference between me and my jwst difference between me and my jwst difference between me and my jwst colleagues yes their objects that light

colleagues yes their objects that light colleagues yes their objects that light has traveled 13 billion years or has traveled 13 billion years or has traveled 13 billion years or whatever it was to us and they're whatever it was to us and they're whatever it was to us and they're observing that now my light has only observing that now my light has only observing that now my light has only traveled a few thousand years it's it's traveled a few thousand years it's it's traveled a few thousand years it's it's nothing so whatever You observe now is nothing so whatever You observe now is nothing so whatever You observe now is likely still going on yes these stars likely still going on yes these stars likely still going on yes these stars are alive and kicking and having a blast are alive and kicking and having a blast are alive and kicking and having a blast Thousand Years Thousand Years Thousand Years just a few thousand years that all it just a few thousand years that all it just a few thousand years that all it takes if we can travel close to the takes if we can travel close to the takes if we can travel close to the speed of light speed of light speed of light yeah maybe we can reach out there yeah maybe we can reach out there yeah maybe we can reach out there we wouldn't have any planets around we wouldn't have any planets around we wouldn't have any planets around those tasks though so that's is that a those tasks though so that's is that a those tasks though so that's is that a definitive intuition well what are definitive intuition well what are definitive intuition well what are planets made of elements right to take planets made of elements right to take planets made of elements right to take the Earth as all Heavy elements right the Earth as all Heavy elements right the Earth as all Heavy elements right the universe needed to reach a certain the universe needed to reach a certain the universe needed to reach a certain stage first to have produced enough of stage first to have produced enough of stage first to have produced enough of all these elements to actually make a all these elements to actually make a all these elements to actually make a planet so on average you've got so okay planet so on average you've got so okay planet so on average you've got so okay right so that took quite a few billion right so that took quite a few billion right so that took quite a few billion years so they're not going to have a years so they're not going to have a years so they're not going to have a mechanism for forming planets you could mechanism for forming planets you could mechanism for forming planets you could have visitors probably but the the the have visitors probably but the the the have visitors probably but the the the kinematics of that are weird are kinematics of that are weird are kinematics of that are weird are unlikely yeah I would say so so they're interesting in that they so they're interesting in that they reveal the early chemical evolution of reveal the early chemical evolution of reveal the early chemical evolution of the universe yes not that they're uh the universe yes not that they're uh the universe yes not that they're uh they could be good vacation spots but they could be good vacation spots but they could be good vacation spots but not well there's nothing like a warm not well there's nothing like a warm not well there's nothing like a warm it's just not no Planet Islands to to go it's just not no Planet Islands to to go it's just not no Planet Islands to to go to to chill to to chill to to chill in your book you highlight the major in your book you highlight the major in your book you highlight the major contributions in the field uh by many contributions in the field uh by many contributions in the field uh by many women some of these women were not as women some of these women were not as women some of these women were not as you describe

you describe you describe immediately credited for their immediately credited for their immediately credited for their discoveries so for me from from computer discoveries so for me from from computer discoveries so for me from from computer science perspective science perspective science perspective uh the story also tells Harvard uh the story also tells Harvard uh the story also tells Harvard computers uh who were these women and computers uh who were these women and computers uh who were these women and what can you just say about the nature what can you just say about the nature what can you just say about the nature of science and Humanity discovering of science and Humanity discovering of science and Humanity discovering things is is in is part of the human things is is in is part of the human things is is in is part of the human nature right and so it has happened for nature right and so it has happened for nature right and so it has happened for the longest time the longest time the longest time um not just by men but also by many um not just by men but also by many um not just by men but also by many women women women um the field of Stella astronomy which um the field of Stella astronomy which um the field of Stella astronomy which is is my field has particularly is is my field has particularly is is my field has particularly benefited from from many discoveries benefited from from many discoveries benefited from from many discoveries made by women you mentioned the Harvard made by women you mentioned the Harvard made by women you mentioned the Harvard computers that's uh a term used for uh computers that's uh a term used for uh computers that's uh a term used for uh women who worked about a hundred years women who worked about a hundred years women who worked about a hundred years ago at the Harvard College Observatory ago at the Harvard College Observatory ago at the Harvard College Observatory and they were hired for their low wages and they were hired for their low wages and they were hired for their low wages and willingness to do diligent and and willingness to do diligent and and willingness to do diligent and patient work to comb through patient work to comb through patient work to comb through the Big Data of the day so the the Big Data of the day so the the Big Data of the day so the observatory director they were carrying observatory director they were carrying observatory director they were carrying out large Sky surveys at the time and out large Sky surveys at the time and out large Sky surveys at the time and they needed uh they needed uh they needed uh that that data needed to be processed that that data needed to be processed that that data needed to be processed and looked at and analyzed and so many and looked at and analyzed and so many and looked at and analyzed and so many women or several dozens or one or two women or several dozens or one or two women or several dozens or one or two dozen women over over the years where dozen women over over the years where dozen women over over the years where um were hired to to do this work and in um were hired to to do this work and in um were hired to to do this work and in the process the process the process because they were looking at the actual because they were looking at the actual because they were looking at the actual data and they were smart even though

data and they were smart even though data and they were smart even though they had often no formal education they had often no formal education they had often no formal education they made a lot of discoveries simply by they made a lot of discoveries simply by they made a lot of discoveries simply by by being in tune with what they were by being in tune with what they were by being in tune with what they were doing so they weren't robots as you know doing so they weren't robots as you know doing so they weren't robots as you know the term computer would perhaps let on the term computer would perhaps let on the term computer would perhaps let on uh lead on um so any Jump Cannon uh lead on um so any Jump Cannon uh lead on um so any Jump Cannon classified classified classified thousands and thousands of Spectra and thousands and thousands of Spectra and thousands and thousands of Spectra and found out that uh you can you know found out that uh you can you know found out that uh you can you know stores have different temperatures and stores have different temperatures and stores have different temperatures and their Spectra look according we still their Spectra look according we still their Spectra look according we still use the classification sequence today um Cecilia Payne gaposhkin later on in I um Cecilia Payne gaposhkin later on in I think 1925 was one of the first women to think 1925 was one of the first women to think 1925 was one of the first women to obtain a PhD obtain a PhD obtain a PhD uh in in Stella astronomy and she uh in in Stella astronomy and she uh in in Stella astronomy and she figured out she calculated that the sun figured out she calculated that the sun figured out she calculated that the sun is mostly made of hydrogen and helium is mostly made of hydrogen and helium is mostly made of hydrogen and helium that seems normal to many of us these that seems normal to many of us these that seems normal to many of us these days but at the time it was thought that days but at the time it was thought that days but at the time it was thought that celestial objects are made of the same celestial objects are made of the same celestial objects are made of the same thing as the Earth it's a gutsy amazing Discovery yes it it's a gutsy amazing Discovery yes it was later termed the most important was later termed the most important was later termed the most important thesis of humankind or something like thesis of humankind or something like thesis of humankind or something like that that that what a revelation to realize that stars what a revelation to realize that stars what a revelation to realize that stars are made of hydrogen and helium right are made of hydrogen and helium right are made of hydrogen and helium right and this was exactly the time when and this was exactly the time when and this was exactly the time when people figured out why stars are shining

people figured out why stars are shining people figured out why stars are shining namely because of nuclear fusion and namely because of nuclear fusion and namely because of nuclear fusion and that its protons and you know the that its protons and you know the that its protons and you know the tunneling effect that leads to to the tunneling effect that leads to to the tunneling effect that leads to to the actual Fusion otherwise you know you the actual Fusion otherwise you know you the actual Fusion otherwise you know you the the protons repulse each other they the protons repulse each other they the protons repulse each other they don't come together don't come together don't come together and so what an incredible time it was and so what an incredible time it was and so what an incredible time it was back then and so stars and nuclear back then and so stars and nuclear back then and so stars and nuclear physics were very closely related and physics were very closely related and physics were very closely related and and it remains that now it's called and it remains that now it's called and it remains that now it's called nuclear astrophysics nuclear astrophysics nuclear astrophysics and so many women had many uh and so many women had many uh and so many women had many uh contributions to that of course prior to contributions to that of course prior to contributions to that of course prior to that Marie Curie uh discovered two new that Marie Curie uh discovered two new that Marie Curie uh discovered two new elements elements elements ah so awesome discovered nuclear fission that is the discovered nuclear fission that is the basis for understanding the our process basis for understanding the our process basis for understanding the our process this is exactly what happens this is exactly what happens this is exactly what happens uh in in the our process you know the uh in in the our process you know the uh in in the our process you know the heavy nuclei let's say uranium if you heavy nuclei let's say uranium if you heavy nuclei let's say uranium if you bombard it with a neutron bombard it with a neutron bombard it with a neutron we talked at length about it it will we talked at length about it it will we talked at length about it it will Decay it will well not Decay actually it Decay it will well not Decay actually it Decay it will well not Decay actually it will fission it will split into barium will fission it will split into barium will fission it will split into barium and Krypton let's say so two lighter and Krypton let's say so two lighter and Krypton let's say so two lighter elements that's exactly what we observe elements that's exactly what we observe elements that's exactly what we observe I have always a higher abundance of I have always a higher abundance of I have always a higher abundance of barium than the heavier elements because barium than the heavier elements because barium than the heavier elements because of this fission cycling that she of this fission cycling that she of this fission cycling that she calculated calculated calculated uh in 1938 uh in 1938 uh in 1938 1939 1939 1939 um so many many contributions and it's um so many many contributions and it's um so many many contributions and it's it's just so remarkable if you just take it's just so remarkable if you just take it's just so remarkable if you just take that body of work

that body of work that body of work that that changed how we that that changed how we that that changed how we how we do things how how we see the how we do things how how we see the how we do things how how we see the Universe Universe Universe um how we understand things um how we understand things um how we understand things has led to so many subsequent has led to so many subsequent has led to so many subsequent discoveries good ones and bad discoveries good ones and bad discoveries good ones and bad um well we did all of it is taken um well we did all of it is taken um well we did all of it is taken together that's progress right it's it's together that's progress right it's it's together that's progress right it's it's ultimate science is what it is we have ultimate science is what it is we have ultimate science is what it is we have to decide what we do with that knowledge to decide what we do with that knowledge to decide what we do with that knowledge right we can always use things for good right we can always use things for good right we can always use things for good or for bad or for bad or for bad um that's that's part of the human uh um that's that's part of the human uh um that's that's part of the human uh Endeavor as well and also part of the Endeavor as well and also part of the Endeavor as well and also part of the human endeavor and the human nature is human endeavor and the human nature is human endeavor and the human nature is the issues with corruption and credit the issues with corruption and credit the issues with corruption and credit assignment and all these kinds of things assignment and all these kinds of things assignment and all these kinds of things that make this whole ride so damn that make this whole ride so damn that make this whole ride so damn interesting about what's right and wrong interesting about what's right and wrong interesting about what's right and wrong and about the nature of Good and Evil and about the nature of Good and Evil and about the nature of Good and Evil yeah and that seems to surface itself in yeah and that seems to surface itself in yeah and that seems to surface itself in all kinds of places all the time yes yes all kinds of places all the time yes yes all kinds of places all the time yes yes Lisa Maynard was nominated for the Nobel Lisa Maynard was nominated for the Nobel Lisa Maynard was nominated for the Nobel Prize 40 times more than that even it's Prize 40 times more than that even it's Prize 40 times more than that even it's amazingly she holds the record for that amazingly she holds the record for that amazingly she holds the record for that she never received it uh so I guess in she never received it uh so I guess in she never received it uh so I guess in point um yeah and of course the Nobel Prize is um yeah and of course the Nobel Prize is its complexities one is the credit its complexities one is the credit its complexities one is the credit assignment but two even in astronomy assignment but two even in astronomy assignment but two even in astronomy sort of assigning credit to a handful of sort of assigning credit to a handful of sort of assigning credit to a handful of folks on so many more contributed as a folks on so many more contributed as a folks on so many more contributed as a complicated story also yeah it's very complicated story also yeah it's very complicated story also yeah it's very complex complex complex okay sorry for the Romantic question but okay sorry for the Romantic question but okay sorry for the Romantic question but what to use the most beautiful idea in what to use the most beautiful idea in what to use the most beautiful idea in astronomy in Stellar astronomy astronomy in Stellar astronomy astronomy in Stellar astronomy well

when I was in high school I I was when I was in high school I I was thinking like okay well what what what thinking like okay well what what what thinking like okay well what what what do I want to do when I'm growing when I do I want to do when I'm growing when I do I want to do when I'm growing when I grow up right I knew I wanted to do grow up right I knew I wanted to do grow up right I knew I wanted to do astronomy but I was a little bit torn astronomy but I was a little bit torn astronomy but I was a little bit torn because my interests were definitely because my interests were definitely because my interests were definitely Stars Stella astronomy but also Stars Stella astronomy but also Stars Stella astronomy but also chemistry I always had a Fascination chemistry I always had a Fascination chemistry I always had a Fascination about the elements so Marie Curie was about the elements so Marie Curie was about the elements so Marie Curie was was a a big role model was a a big role model was a a big role model um my friend actually made a beautiful um my friend actually made a beautiful um my friend actually made a beautiful produced a beautiful movie about the produced a beautiful movie about the produced a beautiful movie about the discovery of um of of the elements this discovery of um of of the elements this discovery of um of of the elements this is the theater play but digitized is the theater play but digitized is the theater play but digitized where when I thought I could actually where when I thought I could actually where when I thought I could actually kind of relive this sort of Discovery kind of relive this sort of Discovery kind of relive this sort of Discovery moment that that Marie Curie had it sent moment that that Marie Curie had it sent moment that that Marie Curie had it sent shivers down my spine it was fantastic I shivers down my spine it was fantastic I shivers down my spine it was fantastic I mean this is mean this is mean this is this is the kind of thing that that I this is the kind of thing that that I this is the kind of thing that that I wanted to experience wanted to experience wanted to experience um but yeah so nuclear physics and um but yeah so nuclear physics and um but yeah so nuclear physics and element creation information was really element creation information was really element creation information was really interesting to me chemistry the elements interesting to me chemistry the elements interesting to me chemistry the elements stars and all of that and I was like stars and all of that and I was like stars and all of that and I was like I don't know if I ever find something I don't know if I ever find something I don't know if I ever find something that combines all of these things that combines all of these things that combines all of these things and then I ended up in Australia and I I and then I ended up in Australia and I I and then I ended up in Australia and I I met this this person and he was working met this this person and he was working met this this person and he was working on Old stars and as I was sitting in his on Old stars and as I was sitting in his on Old stars and as I was sitting in his talk hearing about this for the first talk hearing about this for the first talk hearing about this for the first time time time it kind of it clicked all over my head it kind of it clicked all over my head it kind of it clicked all over my head and it's like oh my God it it all fell and it's like oh my God it it all fell and it's like oh my God it it all fell in place because we can use these old in place because we can use these old in place because we can use these old stars to study the elements to learn how stars to study the elements to learn how stars to study the elements to learn how they're formed we can get these clean they're formed we can get these clean they're formed we can get these clean signatures that help us inform the signatures that help us inform the signatures that help us inform the nuclear synthesis processes you know and

nuclear synthesis processes you know and nuclear synthesis processes you know and I know of course I need to know a lot I know of course I need to know a lot I know of course I need to know a lot about stars too so it's it's like all about stars too so it's it's like all about stars too so it's it's like all together and that that was sort of a together and that that was sort of a together and that that was sort of a moment of magic moment of magic moment of magic and then the fact that and then the fact that and then the fact that I have now done that for 20 years this I have now done that for 20 years this I have now done that for 20 years this is just like I won the lottery it all is just like I won the lottery it all is just like I won the lottery it all clicked into place so in some sense it's clicked into place so in some sense it's clicked into place so in some sense it's an it's an ongoing love story for me if an it's an ongoing love story for me if an it's an ongoing love story for me if I could say it like that where you know I could say it like that where you know I could say it like that where you know I found my stars my thing and I am I found my stars my thing and I am I found my stars my thing and I am fortunate enough to be able to keep fortunate enough to be able to keep fortunate enough to be able to keep doing that and I'm happy to doing that and I'm happy to doing that and I'm happy to see where where it will take me you know see where where it will take me you know see where where it will take me you know it's an evolution as with every it's an evolution as with every it's an evolution as with every relationship you have to if you don't relationship you have to if you don't relationship you have to if you don't March forward you move backwards I'm not March forward you move backwards I'm not March forward you move backwards I'm not interested in moving backwards so I'm interested in moving backwards so I'm interested in moving backwards so I'm I'm letting the field and the I'm letting the field and the I'm letting the field and the discoveries and the findings lead me to discoveries and the findings lead me to discoveries and the findings lead me to you know and I'm often you know and I'm often you know and I'm often um um um I'm I'm it's it's not hard for me to I'm I'm it's it's not hard for me to I'm I'm it's it's not hard for me to follow sort of my hunches and sometimes follow sort of my hunches and sometimes follow sort of my hunches and sometimes even at the telescope it's like even at the telescope it's like even at the telescope it's like let's take a look at this one I have a let's take a look at this one I have a let's take a look at this one I have a good feeling and then usually something good feeling and then usually something good feeling and then usually something good or you know not bad good or you know not bad good or you know not bad pop pops out at the end and I pop pops out at the end and I pop pops out at the end and I um I really like that hey that I have um I really like that hey that I have um I really like that hey that I have the freedom to to do that that I'm the freedom to to do that that I'm the freedom to to do that that I'm allowed to follow my hunches allowed to follow my hunches allowed to follow my hunches um too many people I think are sort of um too many people I think are sort of um too many people I think are sort of boxed in with their job or their life boxed in with their job or their life boxed in with their job or their life that they they don't have that kind of that they they don't have that kind of that they they don't have that kind of Freedom that that's really important to Freedom that that's really important to Freedom that that's really important to me and I certainly try to make use of me and I certainly try to make use of me and I certainly try to make use of that I also try to teach that to others

that I also try to teach that to others that I also try to teach that to others to trust them to learn you know you need to trust them to learn you know you need to trust them to learn you know you need to learn your things but then you need to learn your things but then you need to learn your things but then you need to also trust that knowledge and that to also trust that knowledge and that to also trust that knowledge and that you have a grasp on it right you get out you have a grasp on it right you get out you have a grasp on it right you get out what you put in what you put in what you put in and and and um being able to contribute in um being able to contribute in um being able to contribute in meaningful ways to our knowledge about meaningful ways to our knowledge about meaningful ways to our knowledge about our Cosmic ancestry our Cosmic history our Cosmic ancestry our Cosmic history our Cosmic ancestry our Cosmic history um um um that that's that's a wonderful thing and that that's that's a wonderful thing and that that's that's a wonderful thing and and in this way your personal love story and in this way your personal love story and in this way your personal love story with the Stars evolves with the Stars evolves with the Stars evolves what advice you've already spoken to it what advice you've already spoken to it what advice you've already spoken to it a little bit but what advice would you a little bit but what advice would you a little bit but what advice would you give to young people that are trying to give to young people that are trying to give to young people that are trying to find the same kind of love story in find the same kind of love story in find the same kind of love story in their career in their life their career in their life their career in their life increasingly hard for folks to to find increasingly hard for folks to to find increasingly hard for folks to to find that that that um sometimes I feel um sometimes I feel um sometimes I feel um that you know young people uh have um that you know young people uh have um that you know young people uh have all the opportunities these days and all the opportunities these days and all the opportunities these days and that's that's wonderful but it's almost that's that's wonderful but it's almost that's that's wonderful but it's almost like that leads to some like that leads to some like that leads to some what's the right word they're they're a what's the right word they're they're a what's the right word they're they're a little bit of tired of too too tired to little bit of tired of too too tired to little bit of tired of too too tired to make all the decisions because at some make all the decisions because at some make all the decisions because at some point you need to put your eggs in a point you need to put your eggs in a point you need to put your eggs in a basket and you need to be okay with that basket and you need to be okay with that basket and you need to be okay with that we can't do all the things even though we can't do all the things even though we can't do all the things even though we're often told you can be president we're often told you can be president we're often told you can be president too and I think that's really important too and I think that's really important too and I think that's really important to convey but at the end of the day we to convey but at the end of the day we to convey but at the end of the day we can only have sort of one job or one can only have sort of one job or one can only have sort of one job or one type of profession I'm not saying you type of profession I'm not saying you type of profession I'm not saying you know you need to be locked in but know you need to be locked in but know you need to be locked in but um it's hard to change 180 degrees

um it's hard to change 180 degrees um it's hard to change 180 degrees and and so lots of people I think are and and so lots of people I think are and and so lots of people I think are often afraid to often afraid to often afraid to to really dig in at least for some time to really dig in at least for some time to really dig in at least for some time and get the hands real dirty and get the hands real dirty and get the hands real dirty and really learn from the bottom up on and really learn from the bottom up on and really learn from the bottom up on one thing on one thing because they're one thing on one thing because they're one thing on one thing because they're afraid they're missing out on on 99 afraid they're missing out on on 99 afraid they're missing out on on 99 other things other things other things but life is a little bit missing out on but life is a little bit missing out on but life is a little bit missing out on 99 other things because we only have 24 99 other things because we only have 24 99 other things because we only have 24 hours in a day I hours in a day I hours in a day I I have that feeling very often there are I have that feeling very often there are I have that feeling very often there are so many things I would like to do many so many things I would like to do many so many things I would like to do many things I would like to try to be good at things I would like to try to be good at things I would like to try to be good at sometimes I wish I had a different job sometimes I wish I had a different job sometimes I wish I had a different job you know because I have other interests you know because I have other interests you know because I have other interests too but I realized okay I can only do too but I realized okay I can only do too but I realized okay I can only do one thing so I have no regrets but this one thing so I have no regrets but this one thing so I have no regrets but this is this is a general feeling that I is this is a general feeling that I is this is a general feeling that I think think think I would think most of us have but if it I would think most of us have but if it I would think most of us have but if it lets if it stops you from really digging lets if it stops you from really digging lets if it stops you from really digging drilling down on one thing to become an drilling down on one thing to become an drilling down on one thing to become an expert in one thing to become really expert in one thing to become really expert in one thing to become really good at one thing that you call your own good at one thing that you call your own good at one thing that you call your own then that it just makes it difficult then that it just makes it difficult then that it just makes it difficult and so a fulfilling life and so a fulfilling life and so a fulfilling life is in part likely to be discovered in a is in part likely to be discovered in a is in part likely to be discovered in a singular pursuit of a thing of one thing singular pursuit of a thing of one thing singular pursuit of a thing of one thing well yeah for at least for a time yeah well yeah for at least for a time yeah well yeah for at least for a time yeah for some time with your with your heart for some time with your with your heart for some time with your with your heart and your hands and your hands and your hands um because I think most people long to um because I think most people long to um because I think most people long to own something own something own something you know we all you know we all you know we all I think want to leave some Legacy of I think want to leave some Legacy of I think want to leave some Legacy of some sorts you know for our children for

some sorts you know for our children for some sorts you know for our children for Humanity for this planet Humanity for this planet Humanity for this planet and I think and I think and I think it's really important for young people it's really important for young people it's really important for young people to strive for that and not lose sight or to strive for that and not lose sight or to strive for that and not lose sight or trade that for all the opportunities trade that for all the opportunities trade that for all the opportunities because an opportunity is nothing if you because an opportunity is nothing if you because an opportunity is nothing if you don't do anything don't do anything don't do anything you need to you need to do something at you need to you need to do something at you need to you need to do something at the end of the day so I chat with lots the end of the day so I chat with lots the end of the day so I chat with lots of people about this and I often start of people about this and I often start of people about this and I often start by just saying hey tell me what you by just saying hey tell me what you by just saying hey tell me what you don't like don't like don't like because it's often much easier to to because it's often much easier to to because it's often much easier to to narrow down narrow down narrow down let narrow down narrow down narrow down let narrow down narrow down narrow down let out what what's not on your plate yeah out what what's not on your plate yeah out what what's not on your plate yeah and then this way we get a little bit and then this way we get a little bit and then this way we get a little bit closer and then it's like well why don't closer and then it's like well why don't closer and then it's like well why don't you take a risk yeah and just sign up you take a risk yeah and just sign up you take a risk yeah and just sign up for something for three months but for something for three months but for something for three months but that's what it feels like that that's that's what it feels like that that's that's what it feels like that that's what it feels like and it is that is a what it feels like and it is that is a what it feels like and it is that is a risk commitment is a risk yes because risk commitment is a risk yes because risk commitment is a risk yes because it's you're basically sacrificing all it's you're basically sacrificing all it's you're basically sacrificing all the other possible options but then I the other possible options but then I the other possible options but then I guess you have to trust the magic you guess you have to trust the magic you guess you have to trust the magic you you noticed in that thing yes if you you noticed in that thing yes if you you noticed in that thing yes if you notice one thing just stick with it and notice one thing just stick with it and notice one thing just stick with it and then and then maybe there's something then and then maybe there's something then and then maybe there's something there right right and and this moment of there right right and and this moment of there right right and and this moment of kind of feeling it in in your entire kind of feeling it in in your entire kind of feeling it in in your entire body and mind that this is the right body and mind that this is the right body and mind that this is the right thing you know getting there is is thing you know getting there is is thing you know getting there is is probably really hard but if you don't probably really hard but if you don't probably really hard but if you don't try you won't find out right the hard try you won't find out right the hard try you won't find out right the hard stuff is the fun stuff that's also stuff is the fun stuff that's also stuff is the fun stuff that's also another thing you find out and then another thing you find out and then another thing you find out and then there's that yes somehow it doesn't make there's that yes somehow it doesn't make there's that yes somehow it doesn't make sense uh you also mentioned that uh sense uh you also mentioned that uh sense uh you also mentioned that uh you've taken a little stroll into the you've taken a little stroll into the you've taken a little stroll into the artistic representation of yourself uh

artistic representation of yourself uh artistic representation of yourself uh can you can you speak to that for a can you can you speak to that for a can you can you speak to that for a little bit yes little bit yes little bit yes I already just mentioned I already just mentioned I already just mentioned I wish I I you know had more time to do I wish I I you know had more time to do I wish I I you know had more time to do other things other things other things I find little little I find little little I find little little um sideways I guess to to pursue things um sideways I guess to to pursue things um sideways I guess to to pursue things that that I like besides astronomy or at that that I like besides astronomy or at that that I like besides astronomy or at least I try to find connections and so least I try to find connections and so least I try to find connections and so um some years ago I um some years ago I um some years ago I um again with the help of of my friend um again with the help of of my friend um again with the help of of my friend who made this Marie Curie movie uh she who made this Marie Curie movie uh she who made this Marie Curie movie uh she and I wrote a one-woman play where I and I wrote a one-woman play where I and I wrote a one-woman play where I actually portray Lisa midna who was an actually portray Lisa midna who was an actually portray Lisa midna who was an Austrian German physicist nuclear Austrian German physicist nuclear Austrian German physicist nuclear physicist I'm from Germany so I have the physicist I'm from Germany so I have the physicist I'm from Germany so I have the right accent for that right accent for that right accent for that uh and we wrote this play about this uh and we wrote this play about this uh and we wrote this play about this moment of discovery of nuclear fission moment of discovery of nuclear fission moment of discovery of nuclear fission again this is an absolutely critical again this is an absolutely critical again this is an absolutely critical piece that explains my work today piece that explains my work today piece that explains my work today and we all stand on the shoulder of and we all stand on the shoulder of and we all stand on the shoulder of giants she was one of those Giants and giants she was one of those Giants and giants she was one of those Giants and in some ways it's it's of course a way in some ways it's it's of course a way in some ways it's it's of course a way for me to acknowledge other people's for me to acknowledge other people's for me to acknowledge other people's work that have come before me it's a work that have come before me it's a work that have come before me it's a wonderful way to highlight wonderful way to highlight wonderful way to highlight um the contribution by a prominent woman um the contribution by a prominent woman um the contribution by a prominent woman and the way I I do it is it's a 25 and the way I I do it is it's a 25 and the way I I do it is it's a 25 minute play in costume minute play in costume minute play in costume where I relive for people the moment of where I relive for people the moment of where I relive for people the moment of discovery

discovery discovery then I turn into myself then I turn into myself then I turn into myself and then I give a 30 minute presentation and then I give a 30 minute presentation and then I give a 30 minute presentation on the r process and the creation of on the r process and the creation of on the r process and the creation of heavy elements because the audience can heavy elements because the audience can heavy elements because the audience can now perfectly understand that the public now perfectly understand that the public now perfectly understand that the public audience given the historic backdrop of audience given the historic backdrop of audience given the historic backdrop of this discovery that they just lived this discovery that they just lived this discovery that they just lived through my presentation through my presentation through my presentation and it's it's a wonderful compliment and it's it's a wonderful compliment and it's it's a wonderful compliment that almost spends 100 years from one that almost spends 100 years from one that almost spends 100 years from one woman to the next passing on the torch woman to the next passing on the torch woman to the next passing on the torch and and and you know when we write up our results in you know when we write up our results in you know when we write up our results in let's say you know in magazines like let's say you know in magazines like let's say you know in magazines like Nature and Science it's always about the Nature and Science it's always about the Nature and Science it's always about the results on the gold platter perfectly results on the gold platter perfectly results on the gold platter perfectly prepared prepared prepared it's the discovery is never described it's the discovery is never described it's the discovery is never described only ever the results only ever the results only ever the results you asked me beforehand right what does you asked me beforehand right what does you asked me beforehand right what does it feel to be at the telescope in this it feel to be at the telescope in this it feel to be at the telescope in this moment right moment right moment right I'm happy to talk about this but it's no I'm happy to talk about this but it's no I'm happy to talk about this but it's no way of written ever nobody nobody really way of written ever nobody nobody really way of written ever nobody nobody really talks about it and so having a form of talks about it and so having a form of talks about it and so having a form of uh you know theater of the Arts to bring uh you know theater of the Arts to bring uh you know theater of the Arts to bring this this exciting moment that that is this this exciting moment that that is this this exciting moment that that is what we all want to experience as what we all want to experience as what we all want to experience as scientists to a wider audience is so scientists to a wider audience is so scientists to a wider audience is so profound and so rewarding and they all profound and so rewarding and they all profound and so rewarding and they all love it because everyone can understand love it because everyone can understand love it because everyone can understand a moment of Discovery I was looking for a moment of Discovery I was looking for a moment of Discovery I was looking for something and then I found it it's like something and then I found it it's like something and then I found it it's like you misplaced car keys right

you misplaced car keys right you misplaced car keys right or love it yes yes it everyone can what or love it yes yes it everyone can what or love it yes yes it everyone can what the Glorious experiences yes the the the Glorious experiences yes the the the Glorious experiences yes the the implications and the findings that is implications and the findings that is implications and the findings that is much harder to understand for the for much harder to understand for the for much harder to understand for the for anyone this is where the scientists work anyone this is where the scientists work anyone this is where the scientists work truly lies this is our job but the truly lies this is our job but the truly lies this is our job but the moment of Discovery is easy moment of Discovery is easy moment of Discovery is easy and it's beautiful and it needs to be and it's beautiful and it needs to be and it's beautiful and it needs to be said and so taking my audience on this said and so taking my audience on this said and so taking my audience on this journey what is the perils what are my journey what is the perils what are my journey what is the perils what are my worries and then ah here is the moment worries and then ah here is the moment worries and then ah here is the moment of Discovery let me tell you about it it of Discovery let me tell you about it it of Discovery let me tell you about it it profoundly transformed me and here profoundly transformed me and here profoundly transformed me and here here's how it went right it it it's so here's how it went right it it it's so here's how it went right it it it's so good and art is a way to reveal this good and art is a way to reveal this good and art is a way to reveal this fundamentally Human Side of science yes fundamentally Human Side of science yes fundamentally Human Side of science yes it's the problem with science is that's it's the problem with science is that's it's the problem with science is that's people doing it that's also what makes it beautiful that's also what makes it beautiful right yeah humans are fascinating and right yeah humans are fascinating and right yeah humans are fascinating and that we're able to come up with these that we're able to come up with these that we're able to come up with these ideas through all the struggle through ideas through all the struggle through ideas through all the struggle through all the hardship through all the Hope all the hardship through all the Hope all the hardship through all the Hope through all the search through all the search through all the search and so the art is a great way to to and so the art is a great way to to and so the art is a great way to to portray that and to broadcast that right portray that and to broadcast that right portray that and to broadcast that right I think this is how the audience really I think this is how the audience really I think this is how the audience really should be interacting with Scientists should be interacting with Scientists should be interacting with Scientists much less about the findings but really much less about the findings but really much less about the findings but really more about this Yearning For answers more about this Yearning For answers more about this Yearning For answers right I need to find these khakis I need right I need to find these khakis I need right I need to find these khakis I need I need it because I need to go right I need it because I need to go right I need it because I need to go right it's like now now and then oh God here it's like now now and then oh God here it's like now now and then oh God here it is now I can go my my Merry ways it's

it is now I can go my my Merry ways it's it is now I can go my my Merry ways it's it's so relatable yeah we just need to it's so relatable yeah we just need to it's so relatable yeah we just need to find more and better ways to to do that find more and better ways to to do that find more and better ways to to do that so I hope to turn this into also a so I hope to turn this into also a so I hope to turn this into also a digitized version at some point to again digitized version at some point to again digitized version at some point to again make it more accessible make it more accessible make it more accessible I hope so too so far I'm just doing it I hope so too so far I'm just doing it I hope so too so far I'm just doing it in person in person in person but it's I would love it I think a lot but it's I would love it I think a lot but it's I would love it I think a lot of people would love to see it so I hope of people would love to see it so I hope of people would love to see it so I hope you do just that let me ask you a big you do just that let me ask you a big you do just that let me ask you a big ridiculous question you look up at the ridiculous question you look up at the ridiculous question you look up at the stars you look up at the early stars you look up at the early stars you look up at the early early Stars early Stars early Stars so let me ask the big question that we so let me ask the big question that we so let me ask the big question that we humans often ask and struggle to answer humans often ask and struggle to answer humans often ask and struggle to answer what's the meaning of this whole thing what's the meaning of this whole thing what's the meaning of this whole thing why why are we here the biological evolution requires the the biological evolution requires the chemical Evolution for all of this to chemical Evolution for all of this to chemical Evolution for all of this to kind of play out kind of play out kind of play out and carbon played this important role and carbon played this important role and carbon played this important role and you know in some sense we're just a and you know in some sense we're just a and you know in some sense we're just a consequence of all of these things being consequence of all of these things being consequence of all of these things being the way they are right so the way they are right so the way they are right so maybe this is just where we are supposed maybe this is just where we are supposed maybe this is just where we are supposed to be because you know the laws of to be because you know the laws of to be because you know the laws of physics sort of work the way they do and physics sort of work the way they do and physics sort of work the way they do and um we talked much about the variety of um we talked much about the variety of um we talked much about the variety of of everything really in certainly you of everything really in certainly you of everything really in certainly you know from over here to over there and know from over here to over there and know from over here to over there and things in the vicinity of where the sun things in the vicinity of where the sun things in the vicinity of where the sun and the solar system formed they were and the solar system formed they were and the solar system formed they were the way they were and life maybe wasn't the way they were and life maybe wasn't the way they were and life maybe wasn't necessary consequence of that necessary consequence of that necessary consequence of that I in some sense I like to believe that I in some sense I like to believe that I in some sense I like to believe that because then it becomes reproducible and

because then it becomes reproducible and because then it becomes reproducible and we can apply that same argument we can apply that same argument we can apply that same argument elsewhere if it's total chance right elsewhere if it's total chance right elsewhere if it's total chance right that makes it harder and that's not not that makes it harder and that's not not that makes it harder and that's not not truly satisfying to to a scientist truly satisfying to to a scientist truly satisfying to to a scientist so it's uh as a consequence so it's uh as a consequence so it's uh as a consequence of psychological Evolution which is the of psychological Evolution which is the of psychological Evolution which is the consequence of biological evolution consequence of biological evolution consequence of biological evolution which is consequence of chemical which is consequence of chemical which is consequence of chemical Evolution consequence of physical Evolution consequence of physical Evolution consequence of physical Evolution whatever whatever disciplines Evolution whatever whatever disciplines Evolution whatever whatever disciplines it's uh turtles on top of turtles it's uh turtles on top of turtles it's uh turtles on top of turtles turtles all the way down yes turtles all the way down yes turtles all the way down yes yeah yeah yeah I studied some of the most ancient I studied some of the most ancient I studied some of the most ancient turtles yes at the very bottom of the turtles yes at the very bottom of the turtles yes at the very bottom of the thing thing thing that's right they live for quite a while that's right they live for quite a while that's right they live for quite a while yeah they do yeah they do yeah they do well uh thank you for your incredible well uh thank you for your incredible well uh thank you for your incredible work thank you for uh highlighting both work thank you for uh highlighting both work thank you for uh highlighting both The Human Side and and the Deep The Human Side and and the Deep The Human Side and and the Deep scientific side it's just I'm a huge fan scientific side it's just I'm a huge fan scientific side it's just I'm a huge fan of you working thank you for everything of you working thank you for everything of you working thank you for everything you do and thank you for talking today you do and thank you for talking today you do and thank you for talking today this is awesome of course it was this is awesome of course it was this is awesome of course it was wonderful thank you wonderful thank you wonderful thank you thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with Anna for Bell to conversation with Anna for Bell to conversation with Anna for Bell to support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from let me leave you with some words from let me leave you with some words from Douglas Adams in Hitchhiker's Guide to Douglas Adams in Hitchhiker's Guide to Douglas Adams in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy the Galaxy the Galaxy far out any Uncharted backwaters of the far out any Uncharted backwaters of the far out any Uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral unfashionable end of the western spiral unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small arm of the Galaxy lies a small arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun orbiting this at a unregarded yellow sun orbiting this at a unregarded yellow sun orbiting this at a distance of roughly 92 million miles is distance of roughly 92 million miles is distance of roughly 92 million miles is an utterly insignificant little an utterly insignificant little an utterly insignificant little blue-green Planet whose Aid descendant blue-green Planet whose Aid descendant blue-green Planet whose Aid descendant life forms has so amazingly primitive life forms has so amazingly primitive life forms has so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches

that they still think digital watches that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea are a pretty neat idea are a pretty neat idea thank you for listening I hope to see thank you for listening I hope to see thank you for listening I hope to see you next time