Israel-Palestine Debate: Finkelstein, Destiny, M. Rabbani & Benny Morris | Lex Fridman Podcast #418

that's a good point no no it's a good that's a good point no no it's a good point now some people accuse me of point now some people accuse me of point now some people accuse me of speaking very slowly and they're advised speaking very slowly and they're advised speaking very slowly and they're advised on YouTube to turn up the speed twice to on YouTube to turn up the speed twice to on YouTube to turn up the speed twice to three times whenever I'm on one of the three times whenever I'm on one of the three times whenever I'm on one of the reasons I speak slowly is because I reasons I speak slowly is because I reasons I speak slowly is because I attach value to every word I say normal attach value to every word I say normal attach value to every word I say normal say this all over and over and over say this all over and over and over say this all over and over and over again I only deal in facts I don't deal again I only deal in facts I don't deal again I only deal in facts I don't deal in hypotheticals I only deal in facts I in hypotheticals I only deal in facts I in hypotheticals I only deal in facts I only deal in facts and that seems to be only deal in facts and that seems to be only deal in facts and that seems to be the case except for when the facts are the case except for when the facts are the case except for when the facts are completely and totally to the particular completely and totally to the particular completely and totally to the particular Point you're trying to push the idea Point you're trying to push the idea Point you're trying to push the idea that Jews would have out of hand that Jews would have out of hand that Jews would have out of hand rejected any state that had Arabs on it rejected any state that had Arabs on it rejected any state that had Arabs on it or always had a plan of expulsion is or always had a plan of expulsion is or always had a plan of expulsion is just betrayed by the acceptance of the just betrayed by the acceptance of the just betrayed by the acceptance of the 47 partition I don't think you 47 partition I don't think you 47 partition I don't think you understand politics they forced the understand politics they forced the understand politics they forced the British to prevent immigration of Jews British to prevent immigration of Jews British to prevent immigration of Jews from Europe and reaching safe Shores in from Europe and reaching safe Shores in from Europe and reaching safe Shores in Palestine that's what they did and they Palestine that's what they did and they Palestine that's what they did and they knew that the Jew were being persecuted knew that the Jew were being persecuted knew that the Jew were being persecuted in Europe Palestine the only spot of in Europe Palestine the only spot of in Europe Palestine the only spot of land on Earth yes basically that was the land on Earth yes basically that was the land on Earth yes basically that was the problem the Jews couldn't immigrate problem the Jews couldn't immigrate problem the Jews couldn't immigrate about your great friends in Britain The about your great friends in Britain The about your great friends in Britain The Architects of of the Bal for declar by Architects of of the Bal for declar by Architects of of the Bal for declar by the late 1930 about the United States W the late 1930 about the United States W the late 1930 about the United States W happy to take in Jews and the Americans happy to take in Jews and the Americans happy to take in Jews and the Americans W happy why and why are Palestinians who W happy why and why are Palestinians who W happy why and why are Palestinians who were not Europeans who had zero role in were not Europeans who had zero role in were not Europeans who had zero role in the rise of Nazism who had no relation the rise of Nazism who had no relation the rise of Nazism who had no relation to any of this why are they somehow to any of this why are they somehow to any of this why are they somehow uniquely responsible for what happened uniquely responsible for what happened uniquely responsible for what happened in Europe and un only safe haven for in Europe and un only safe haven for in Europe and un only safe haven for Jews Professor Jews Professor Jews Professor Morris because of your logic and I'm not Morris because of your logic and I'm not Morris because of your logic and I'm not disputing it that's why October 7th

disputing it that's why October 7th disputing it that's why October 7th happened oh my God because there was no happened oh my God because there was no happened oh my God because there was no options left for those people the Kamas options left for those people the Kamas options left for those people the Kamas guys who attacked the Kim they apart guys who attacked the Kim they apart guys who attacked the Kim they apart from the attacks on the military sites from the attacks on the military sites from the attacks on the military sites when they attacked the kibuts were out when they attacked the kibuts were out when they attacked the kibuts were out to kill civilians and they killed family to kill civilians and they killed family to kill civilians and they killed family after family house after house talk fast after family house after house talk fast after family house after house talk fast so people think that you're coherent I'm so people think that you're coherent I'm so people think that you're coherent I'm just reading from the UN I know you like just reading from the UN I know you like just reading from the UN I know you like them sometimes only when they agree with them sometimes only when they agree with them sometimes only when they agree with you though you've lied about this you though you've lied about this you though you've lied about this particular instance in the past those particular instance in the past those particular instance in the past those kids weren't just on the beach as as kids weren't just on the beach as as kids weren't just on the beach as as often stated articles those kids were often stated articles those kids were often stated articles those kids were literally coming out of a previously literally coming out of a previously literally coming out of a previously identified Hamas compound that they had identified Hamas compound that they had identified Hamas compound that they had operated from they liter operated from they liter operated from they liter belli with all due respect with all due belli with all due respect with all due belli with all due respect with all due respect you're such a fantastic respect you're such a fantastic respect you're such a fantastic it's terrifying the following is a debate on terrifying the following is a debate on the topic of Israel and Palestine with the topic of Israel and Palestine with the topic of Israel and Palestine with Norman fenin Benny Morris mu Rabani and Norman fenin Benny Morris mu Rabani and Norman fenin Benny Morris mu Rabani and Steven benell also known online as Steven benell also known online as Steven benell also known online as Destiny Norman many are historians muen Destiny Norman many are historians muen Destiny Norman many are historians muen is a Middle East analyst and Steven is a is a Middle East analyst and Steven is a is a Middle East analyst and Steven is a political commentator and streamer all political commentator and streamer all political commentator and streamer all four have spoken and debated extensively four have spoken and debated extensively four have spoken and debated extensively on this topic the goal for this debate on this topic the goal for this debate on this topic the goal for this debate was not for anyone to win or to score was not for anyone to win or to score was not for anyone to win or to score points it wasn't to get views or likes I points it wasn't to get views or likes I points it wasn't to get views or likes I never care about those and I think there never care about those and I think there never care about those and I think there are probably much easier ways to get are probably much easier ways to get are probably much easier ways to get those things if I did care the goal was those things if I did care the goal was those things if I did care the goal was to explore together the history present to explore together the history present to explore together the history present and future of Israel and Palestine in a and future of Israel and Palestine in a and future of Israel and Palestine in a free flowing conversation no time limits

free flowing conversation no time limits free flowing conversation no time limits no no no rules there was a lot of tension in the rules there was a lot of tension in the rules there was a lot of tension in the room from the very beginning and it only room from the very beginning and it only room from the very beginning and it only got more intense as we went along and I got more intense as we went along and I got more intense as we went along and I quickly realized that this very quickly realized that this very quickly realized that this very conversation in a very real human way conversation in a very real human way conversation in a very real human way was a microcosm of the tensions and was a microcosm of the tensions and was a microcosm of the tensions and distance and perspectives on the topic distance and perspectives on the topic distance and perspectives on the topic of Israel and of Israel and of Israel and Palestine for some debates I will St Palestine for some debates I will St Palestine for some debates I will St step in and moderate strictly to prevent step in and moderate strictly to prevent step in and moderate strictly to prevent emotion from boiling for this I saw the emotion from boiling for this I saw the emotion from boiling for this I saw the value in not interfering with the value in not interfering with the value in not interfering with the passion of the exchanges because that passion of the exchanges because that passion of the exchanges because that emotion in itself spoke emotion in itself spoke emotion in itself spoke volumes we did talk about the history volumes we did talk about the history volumes we did talk about the history and the future but the anger the and the future but the anger the and the future but the anger the frustration the biting wit and at times frustration the biting wit and at times frustration the biting wit and at times respect and camaraderie were all there respect and camaraderie were all there respect and camaraderie were all there like I said we did it in an perhaps all like I said we did it in an perhaps all like I said we did it in an perhaps all to human way I will do more debates and to human way I will do more debates and to human way I will do more debates and conversations on these difficult topics conversations on these difficult topics conversations on these difficult topics and I will continue to search for Hope and I will continue to search for Hope and I will continue to search for Hope in the midst of death and destruction to in the midst of death and destruction to in the midst of death and destruction to search for our our common Humanity in search for our our common Humanity in search for our our common Humanity in the midst of division and hate this the midst of division and hate this the midst of division and hate this thing we have going on human thing we have going on human thing we have going on human civilization the whole of it is civilization the whole of it is civilization the whole of it is beautiful and it's worth figuring out beautiful and it's worth figuring out beautiful and it's worth figuring out how we can help it flourish together I how we can help it flourish together I how we can help it flourish together I love you love you love you all this is Alex Freedman podcast to all this is Alex Freedman podcast to all this is Alex Freedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's Norman felstein Benny Morris muan

here's Norman felstein Benny Morris muan here's Norman felstein Benny Morris muan Rabani and Steven benell first question Rabani and Steven benell first question Rabani and Steven benell first question is about is about is about 1948 for Israelis 1948 is the 1948 for Israelis 1948 is the 1948 for Israelis 1948 is the establishment of the state of Israel and establishment of the state of Israel and establishment of the state of Israel and the war of independence for Palestinians the war of independence for Palestinians the war of independence for Palestinians 1948 is the nakba which means 1948 is the nakba which means 1948 is the nakba which means catastrophe or the displacement of catastrophe or the displacement of catastrophe or the displacement of 700,000 Palestinians from their home hes 700,000 Palestinians from their home hes 700,000 Palestinians from their home hes as a consequence of the war what to you as a consequence of the war what to you as a consequence of the war what to you is important to understand about the is important to understand about the is important to understand about the events of 1948 and the period around events of 1948 and the period around events of 1948 and the period around there 47 49 that helps us understand there 47 49 that helps us understand there 47 49 that helps us understand what's going on today and uh maybe helps what's going on today and uh maybe helps what's going on today and uh maybe helps us understand the roots of all this that us understand the roots of all this that us understand the roots of all this that started even before started even before started even before 1948 I was hoping that Norm can speak 1948 I was hoping that Norm can speak 1948 I was hoping that Norm can speak first and Benny then M and then first and Benny then M and then first and Benny then M and then Norm after World War Norm after World War Norm after World War II the II the II the British decid that they didn't want to British decid that they didn't want to British decid that they didn't want to deal with the Palestine question anymore deal with the Palestine question anymore deal with the Palestine question anymore and the ball was thrown into the court and the ball was thrown into the court and the ball was thrown into the court of the United of the United of the United Nations now as I read the record the UN Nations now as I read the record the UN Nations now as I read the record the UN was not attempting to arbitrate or was not attempting to arbitrate or was not attempting to arbitrate or adjudicate Rights and adjudicate Rights and adjudicate Rights and Wrongs it was confronting a very Wrongs it was confronting a very Wrongs it was confronting a very practical practical practical problem there were two national problem there were two national problem there were two national communities in Palestine communities in Palestine communities in Palestine and there were irreconcilable and there were irreconcilable and there were irreconcilable differences on fundamental questions differences on fundamental questions differences on fundamental questions most importantly looking at the historic most importantly looking at the historic most importantly looking at the historic record on the question of

record on the question of record on the question of immigration and associate with the immigration and associate with the immigration and associate with the question of immigration the question of question of immigration the question of question of immigration the question of lend the UN special committee on lend the UN special committee on lend the UN special committee on Palestine which came into being before Palestine which came into being before Palestine which came into being before the UN 181 partition resolution the UN the UN 181 partition resolution the UN the UN 181 partition resolution the UN special committee it recommended two special committee it recommended two special committee it recommended two states in states in states in Palestine there was a minority position Palestine there was a minority position Palestine there was a minority position represented by uh Iran India represented by uh Iran India represented by uh Iran India Yugoslavia they supported one Yugoslavia they supported one Yugoslavia they supported one state but uh they state but uh they state but uh they believed that if forced to the two believed that if forced to the two believed that if forced to the two communities would figure out some sort communities would figure out some sort communities would figure out some sort of modus sendi of modus sendi of modus sendi and live and live and live together the United Nations General together the United Nations General together the United Nations General Assembly supported partition between Assembly supported partition between Assembly supported partition between what it called a Jewish State and an what it called a Jewish State and an what it called a Jewish State and an Arab Arab Arab State now in my reading of the record State now in my reading of the record State now in my reading of the record and they understand there's new and they understand there's new and they understand there's new scholarship in the subject which I've scholarship in the subject which I've scholarship in the subject which I've not read but so far as I've read the not read but so far as I've read the not read but so far as I've read the record there's no Clarity on what the record there's no Clarity on what the record there's no Clarity on what the United United United Nations General said assembly meant by a Nations General said assembly meant by a Nations General said assembly meant by a Jewish State and an Arab State except Jewish State and an Arab State except Jewish State and an Arab State except for the fact that the Jewish state would for the fact that the Jewish state would for the fact that the Jewish state would be be be demographically the majority would be

demographically the majority would be demographically the majority would be Jewish and the Arab state Jewish and the Arab state Jewish and the Arab state demographically would be demographically would be demographically would be Arab the unscop the UN special committee Arab the unscop the UN special committee Arab the unscop the UN special committee on on on Palestine it was very clear and it was Palestine it was very clear and it was Palestine it was very clear and it was re reiterated many times re reiterated many times re reiterated many times that in recommending two that in recommending two that in recommending two states each state the Arab State and the states each state the Arab State and the states each state the Arab State and the Jewish state would have to guarantee Jewish state would have to guarantee Jewish state would have to guarantee full equality of all full equality of all full equality of all citizens with regard to political civil citizens with regard to political civil citizens with regard to political civil and religious and religious and religious matters now that does raise the question matters now that does raise the question matters now that does raise the question if there is if there is if there is absolute full equality of all citizens absolute full equality of all citizens absolute full equality of all citizens both in the Jewish state and the Arab both in the Jewish state and the Arab both in the Jewish state and the Arab state with regard to political rights state with regard to political rights state with regard to political rights civil rights and religious rights apart civil rights and religious rights apart civil rights and religious rights apart from the demographic from the demographic from the demographic majority it's very unclear what it meant majority it's very unclear what it meant majority it's very unclear what it meant to call a state Jewish or call the state to call a state Jewish or call the state to call a state Jewish or call the state Arab in my view the partition Arab in my view the partition Arab in my view the partition resolution was the correct resolution was the correct resolution was the correct decision I do not believe that the Arab decision I do not believe that the Arab decision I do not believe that the Arab and Jewish communities could at that and Jewish communities could at that and Jewish communities could at that point be made to live together I point be made to live together I point be made to live together I disagree with the minority position of disagree with the minority position of disagree with the minority position of India Iran and India Iran and India Iran and Yugoslavia and that not being a

Yugoslavia and that not being a Yugoslavia and that not being a practical option two states was the only practical option two states was the only practical option two states was the only other other other option in this regard I would want to option in this regard I would want to option in this regard I would want to pay tribute to what was probably the pay tribute to what was probably the pay tribute to what was probably the most moving speech at the UN General most moving speech at the UN General most moving speech at the UN General Assembly Assembly Assembly proceedings by the Soviet foreign proceedings by the Soviet foreign proceedings by the Soviet foreign minister minister minister gromo I was very gromo I was very gromo I was very tempted to quote it at length but I tempted to quote it at length but I tempted to quote it at length but I recognized that would be uh taking too recognized that would be uh taking too recognized that would be uh taking too much much much time uh so I asked a young friend Jamie time uh so I asked a young friend Jamie time uh so I asked a young friend Jamie Stern Wier to edit it and just get the Stern Wier to edit it and just get the Stern Wier to edit it and just get the essence of what foreign minister gromo essence of what foreign minister gromo essence of what foreign minister gromo had to say had to say had to say during the last war gromo said the during the last war gromo said the during the last war gromo said the Jewish people Jewish people Jewish people underwent exceptional sorrow and underwent exceptional sorrow and underwent exceptional sorrow and suffering without any suffering without any suffering without any exaggeration this sorrow and suffering exaggeration this sorrow and suffering exaggeration this sorrow and suffering are are are Indescribable hundreds of thousands of Indescribable hundreds of thousands of Indescribable hundreds of thousands of Jews are wandering about in various Jews are wandering about in various Jews are wandering about in various countries of Europe in search of means countries of Europe in search of means countries of Europe in search of means of existence and in search of of existence and in search of of existence and in search of shelter the United Nations cannot and shelter the United Nations cannot and shelter the United Nations cannot and must not regard this situation with must not regard this situation with must not regard this situation with indifference past indifference past indifference past experience particularly during the

experience particularly during the experience particularly during the second world war shows that no Western second world war shows that no Western second world war shows that no Western European state was able to provide European state was able to provide European state was able to provide adequate assistance for the Jewish adequate assistance for the Jewish adequate assistance for the Jewish people in defending its rights and its people in defending its rights and its people in defending its rights and its very existence from the violence of the very existence from the violence of the very existence from the violence of the Hitler ites and their Hitler ites and their Hitler ites and their allies this is an unpleasant fact but allies this is an unpleasant fact but allies this is an unpleasant fact but unfortunately like all other facts it unfortunately like all other facts it unfortunately like all other facts it must be must be must be admitted gromo went on to say in admitted gromo went on to say in admitted gromo went on to say in principle he supports one state or the principle he supports one state or the principle he supports one state or the Soviet Union supports one state but he Soviet Union supports one state but he Soviet Union supports one state but he said if relations between the Jewish and said if relations between the Jewish and said if relations between the Jewish and Arab populations of Arab populations of Arab populations of Palestine proved to be so bad that would Palestine proved to be so bad that would Palestine proved to be so bad that would be impossible to reconcile them and to be impossible to reconcile them and to be impossible to reconcile them and to ensure the peaceful coexistence of the ensure the peaceful coexistence of the ensure the peaceful coexistence of the Arabs and the Jews the Soviet Union Arabs and the Jews the Soviet Union Arabs and the Jews the Soviet Union would would would support two support two support two states I states I states I personally am not personally am not personally am not convinced that the two states would have convinced that the two states would have convinced that the two states would have been unsustainable in the long been unsustainable in the long been unsustainable in the long term if and this is a big if the Zionist term if and this is a big if the Zionist term if and this is a big if the Zionist movement had been faithful to the movement had been faithful to the movement had been faithful to the position it proclaimed during the unscop position it proclaimed during the unscop position it proclaimed during the unscop public public public hearings at the time benorian

hearings at the time benorian hearings at the time benorian testified quote I want to express what testified quote I want to express what testified quote I want to express what we mean by a Jewish state we mean by a we mean by a Jewish state we mean by a we mean by a Jewish state we mean by a Jewish State simply a state where the Jewish State simply a state where the Jewish State simply a state where the majority of the people are majority of the people are majority of the people are Jews not a state where a Jew has in any Jews not a state where a Jew has in any Jews not a state where a Jew has in any way any privilege more than anyone way any privilege more than anyone way any privilege more than anyone else a Jewish State means a state based else a Jewish State means a state based else a Jewish State means a state based on absolute equality of all her citizens on absolute equality of all her citizens on absolute equality of all her citizens and on and on and on Democracy alas the this was not to Democracy alas the this was not to Democracy alas the this was not to be as Professor Mars has be as Professor Mars has be as Professor Mars has written quote Zionist ideology and written quote Zionist ideology and written quote Zionist ideology and practice were practice were practice were necessarily and necessarily and necessarily and elementally elementally elementally expansionist and then he wrote in expansionist and then he wrote in expansionist and then he wrote in another another another book book book transfer the euphemism for transfer the euphemism for transfer the euphemism for exposion transfer was exposion transfer was exposion transfer was inevitable and inbuilt inevitable and inbuilt inevitable and inbuilt into into into Zionism because it sought to transform a Zionism because it sought to transform a Zionism because it sought to transform a land which was Arab into a Jewish State land which was Arab into a Jewish State land which was Arab into a Jewish State and a Jewish State could not have Arisen and a Jewish State could not have Arisen and a Jewish State could not have Arisen without a major displacement of Arab without a major displacement of Arab without a major displacement of Arab population and because this aim

population and because this aim population and because this aim automatically produced resistance among automatically produced resistance among automatically produced resistance among the the the Arabs which in turn persuade the Arabs which in turn persuade the Arabs which in turn persuade the yeshua's leaders the yeshu being the yeshua's leaders the yeshu being the yeshua's leaders the yeshu being the Jewish Community the yeshua's leaders Jewish Community the yeshua's leaders Jewish Community the yeshua's leaders that a hostile Arab majority or large that a hostile Arab majority or large that a hostile Arab majority or large minority could not remain in place if a minority could not remain in place if a minority could not remain in place if a Jewish state was to arise or safely Jewish state was to arise or safely Jewish state was to arise or safely endure or as Professor Mars endure or as Professor Mars endure or as Professor Mars retrospectively Put it retrospectively Put it retrospectively Put it quote a removing of a quote a removing of a quote a removing of a population was population was population was needed without a population needed without a population needed without a population exposion a Jewish state would not have exposion a Jewish state would not have exposion a Jewish state would not have been been been established established established unquote the Arab site rejected outright unquote the Arab site rejected outright unquote the Arab site rejected outright the partition resolution I won't play the partition resolution I won't play the partition resolution I won't play games with that I know a lot of people games with that I know a lot of people games with that I know a lot of people try to prove it's not true it clearly in try to prove it's not true it clearly in try to prove it's not true it clearly in my view is true the Arab side rejected my view is true the Arab side rejected my view is true the Arab side rejected outright the partition outright the partition outright the partition resolution while Israel early resolution while Israel early resolution while Israel early leaders acting under leaders acting under leaders acting under compulsions compulsions compulsions inevitable and inevitable and inevitable and inbuilt into inbuilt into inbuilt into Zionism found the pretext in the course Zionism found the pretext in the course Zionism found the pretext in the course of the first Arab Israeli War to expel of the first Arab Israeli War to expel of the first Arab Israeli War to expel the indigenous the indigenous the indigenous population and expand its

population and expand its population and expand its borders I therefore borders I therefore borders I therefore conclude that neither side was committed conclude that neither side was committed conclude that neither side was committed to the letter of the partition to the letter of the partition to the letter of the partition resolution and both sides aborted it resolution and both sides aborted it resolution and both sides aborted it thank you Norm nor asked that you make a thank you Norm nor asked that you make a thank you Norm nor asked that you make a lengthy statement in the beginning uh lengthy statement in the beginning uh lengthy statement in the beginning uh Benny I hope it's okay to call Everybody Benny I hope it's okay to call Everybody Benny I hope it's okay to call Everybody by their first name in the name of by their first name in the name of by their first name in the name of camaraderie Norm has quoted several camaraderie Norm has quoted several camaraderie Norm has quoted several things you said uh perhaps you can things you said uh perhaps you can things you said uh perhaps you can comment broadly on the question of 1948 comment broadly on the question of 1948 comment broadly on the question of 1948 and maybe respond to the things that and maybe respond to the things that and maybe respond to the things that Norm said yeah unscop the United Nations Norm said yeah unscop the United Nations Norm said yeah unscop the United Nations special committee on Palestine um special committee on Palestine um special committee on Palestine um recommended partition the majority of recommended partition the majority of recommended partition the majority of uncope recommended partition which was uncope recommended partition which was uncope recommended partition which was accepted by the UN General Assembly in accepted by the UN General Assembly in accepted by the UN General Assembly in November November November 1947 essentially looking back to the 1947 essentially looking back to the 1947 essentially looking back to the peel Commission in 1937 10 years earlier peel Commission in 1937 10 years earlier peel Commission in 1937 10 years earlier a British commission had looked at the a British commission had looked at the a British commission had looked at the problem of Palestine the two Waring problem of Palestine the two Waring problem of Palestine the two Waring National groups who refus to live National groups who refus to live National groups who refus to live together if you like or together if you like or together if you like or um consolidate a a unitary state state um consolidate a a unitary state state um consolidate a a unitary state state between them and and Peele said there between them and and Peele said there between them and and Peele said there should be two states that's the should be two states that's the should be two states that's the principle The Country Must Be principle The Country Must Be principle The Country Must Be partitioned into two states this would partitioned into two states this would partitioned into two states this would give a modicum of Justice to both sides give a modicum of Justice to both sides give a modicum of Justice to both sides if not all their demands of course um if not all their demands of course um if not all their demands of course um and the United Nations followed suit the and the United Nations followed suit the and the United Nations followed suit the United Nations unop and then the UN United Nations unop and then the UN United Nations unop and then the UN General Assembly representing the will General Assembly representing the will General Assembly representing the will of the International Community um said of the International Community um said of the International Community um said two states is the just solution in this

two states is the just solution in this two states is the just solution in this complex situation the problem was that complex situation the problem was that complex situation the problem was that immediately with the passage of the immediately with the passage of the immediately with the passage of the resolution the Arabs the Arab states and resolution the Arabs the Arab states and resolution the Arabs the Arab states and the Arabs of Palestine said no as Norman the Arabs of Palestine said no as Norman the Arabs of Palestine said no as Norman frl Stein said they said no they frl Stein said they said no they frl Stein said they said no they rejected the partition idea the rejected the partition idea the rejected the partition idea the principle of partition not just the idea principle of partition not just the idea principle of partition not just the idea of what percentage which side should get of what percentage which side should get of what percentage which side should get but the principle of partition they said but the principle of partition they said but the principle of partition they said no to the Jews should not have any part no to the Jews should not have any part no to the Jews should not have any part of Palestine for their Sovereign of Palestine for their Sovereign of Palestine for their Sovereign territory maybe Jews could live as a territory maybe Jews could live as a territory maybe Jews could live as a minority in Palestine that also was minority in Palestine that also was minority in Palestine that also was problematic in the eyes of the the problematic in the eyes of the the problematic in the eyes of the the Palestinian Arab leadership husseini had Palestinian Arab leadership husseini had Palestinian Arab leadership husseini had said only Jews who were there before said only Jews who were there before said only Jews who were there before 1917 could actually get citizenship and 1917 could actually get citizenship and 1917 could actually get citizenship and continue to live there but the Arabs continue to live there but the Arabs continue to live there but the Arabs rejected partition and the Arabs of rejected partition and the Arabs of rejected partition and the Arabs of Palestine launched in very disorganized Palestine launched in very disorganized Palestine launched in very disorganized fashion war against the resolution fashion war against the resolution fashion war against the resolution against the implementation of the against the implementation of the against the implementation of the resolution against the Jewish community resolution against the Jewish community resolution against the Jewish community in Palestine um and this was their in Palestine um and this was their in Palestine um and this was their defeat in that civil war between the two defeat in that civil war between the two defeat in that civil war between the two communities while the British were communities while the British were communities while the British were withdrawing from Palestine um withdrawing from Palestine um withdrawing from Palestine um led to the Arab Invasion the The led to the Arab Invasion the The led to the Arab Invasion the The Invasion by the Arab states in May Invasion by the Arab states in May Invasion by the Arab states in May 1948 of of the country again basically 1948 of of the country again basically 1948 of of the country again basically with the idea of eradicating or with the idea of eradicating or with the idea of eradicating or preventing the emergence of a Jewish preventing the emergence of a Jewish preventing the emergence of a Jewish state in line with the United Nations um state in line with the United Nations um state in line with the United Nations um decision and the will of the decision and the will of the decision and the will of the International International International Community Norman said that the Zionist Community Norman said that the Zionist Community Norman said that the Zionist Enterprise and he quoted me meant from Enterprise and he quoted me meant from Enterprise and he quoted me meant from the beginning um to transfer or expel

the beginning um to transfer or expel the beginning um to transfer or expel the Arabs of Palestine or some of the the Arabs of Palestine or some of the the Arabs of Palestine or some of the Arabs of Palestine um and I think he's Arabs of Palestine um and I think he's Arabs of Palestine um and I think he's sort of um quoting out of context the sort of um quoting out of context the sort of um quoting out of context the context in which the statements were context in which the statements were context in which the statements were made that that um the Jewish State could made that that um the Jewish State could made that that um the Jewish State could only emerge um if there was a transfer only emerge um if there was a transfer only emerge um if there was a transfer of Arab population was preceded in the of Arab population was preceded in the of Arab population was preceded in the way I wrote it and the way it actually way I wrote it and the way it actually way I wrote it and the way it actually happened by Arab resistance and happened by Arab resistance and happened by Arab resistance and hostilities towards the Jewish Community hostilities towards the Jewish Community hostilities towards the Jewish Community had the Arabs accepted partition there had the Arabs accepted partition there had the Arabs accepted partition there would have been a large Arab minority in would have been a large Arab minority in would have been a large Arab minority in the Jewish state which emerged in the Jewish state which emerged in the Jewish state which emerged in 447 and in fact Jewish um economists and 447 and in fact Jewish um economists and 447 and in fact Jewish um economists and state Builders took into account that state Builders took into account that state Builders took into account that there would be a large Arab minority and there would be a large Arab minority and there would be a large Arab minority and its needs would be cared for ETC um but its needs would be cared for ETC um but its needs would be cared for ETC um but this was not to be because the Arabs this was not to be because the Arabs this was not to be because the Arabs attacked and had they not attacked um attacked and had they not attacked um attacked and had they not attacked um perhaps a a a Jewish state with a large perhaps a a a Jewish state with a large perhaps a a a Jewish state with a large Arab minority could have emerged but Arab minority could have emerged but Arab minority could have emerged but this didn't happen they went to war the this didn't happen they went to war the this didn't happen they went to war the Jews resisted and in the course of that Jews resisted and in the course of that Jews resisted and in the course of that war um Arab populations were driven out war um Arab populations were driven out war um Arab populations were driven out some were expelled some left because some were expelled some left because some were expelled some left because Arab leaders advised them to leave or Arab leaders advised them to leave or Arab leaders advised them to leave or ordered them to leave and at the end of ordered them to leave and at the end of ordered them to leave and at the end of the war Israel said they can't return the war Israel said they can't return the war Israel said they can't return because they just tried to destroy the because they just tried to destroy the because they just tried to destroy the Jewish State um and and that's the basic Jewish State um and and that's the basic Jewish State um and and that's the basic reality of what happened in 48 the Jews reality of what happened in 48 the Jews reality of what happened in 48 the Jews created a state the Palestinian Arabs created a state the Palestinian Arabs created a state the Palestinian Arabs never bothered to even try to create a never bothered to even try to create a never bothered to even try to create a state a before 48 and in the course of state a before 48 and in the course of state a before 48 and in the course of the 1948 war and for that reason they

the 1948 war and for that reason they the 1948 war and for that reason they have no state to this day the Jews do have no state to this day the Jews do have no state to this day the Jews do have a state because they prepared to have a state because they prepared to have a state because they prepared to establish a state fought for it and um establish a state fought for it and um establish a state fought for it and um established it um hopefully lastingly established it um hopefully lastingly established it um hopefully lastingly when you said hostility in case people when you said hostility in case people when you said hostility in case people are not familiar there was a fullon war are not familiar there was a fullon war are not familiar there was a fullon war where Arab States where Arab States where Arab States invaded and Israel won that war let me invaded and Israel won that war let me invaded and Israel won that war let me just add to clarify the the war had two just add to clarify the the war had two just add to clarify the the war had two parts to it the first part was the Arab parts to it the first part was the Arab parts to it the first part was the Arab community in Palestine its militia men community in Palestine its militia men community in Palestine its militia men attacked the Jews um a from November attacked the Jews um a from November attacked the Jews um a from November 1947 in other words from the day after 1947 in other words from the day after 1947 in other words from the day after the UN partition resolution it was the UN partition resolution it was the UN partition resolution it was passed Arab gunmen were busy shooting up passed Arab gunmen were busy shooting up passed Arab gunmen were busy shooting up Jews and that snowballed into a Jews and that snowballed into a Jews and that snowballed into a fullscale civil war between the two fullscale civil war between the two fullscale civil war between the two communities in Palestine in May 1948 a communities in Palestine in May 1948 a communities in Palestine in May 1948 a second stage began in the war in which second stage began in the war in which second stage began in the war in which the Arab States invaded the new state the Arab States invaded the new state the Arab States invaded the new state attacked the new state um and and they attacked the new state um and and they attacked the new state um and and they too were defeated and thus in the state too were defeated and thus in the state too were defeated and thus in the state of Israel emerged in the course of this of Israel emerged in the course of this of Israel emerged in the course of this two-stage War a a vast Palestinian two-stage War a a vast Palestinian two-stage War a a vast Palestinian refugee problem um um occurred and so refugee problem um um occurred and so refugee problem um um occurred and so after that the transfer the expulsion after that the transfer the expulsion after that the transfer the expulsion the the thing that people call the the the thing that people call the the the thing that people call the nakba uh happened um will could you nakba uh happened um will could you nakba uh happened um will could you speak to 1948 and the historical speak to 1948 and the historical speak to 1948 and the historical significance of it sure um there's significance of it sure um there's significance of it sure um there's there's a lot to unpack here I'll try to there's a lot to unpack here I'll try to there's a lot to unpack here I'll try to limit myself to just a few points

limit myself to just a few points limit myself to just a few points regarding Zionism and transfer I think regarding Zionism and transfer I think regarding Zionism and transfer I think himim whitesman uh the head of the world himim whitesman uh the head of the world himim whitesman uh the head of the world Zionist organization had it exactly Zionist organization had it exactly Zionist organization had it exactly right when he said that the objective of right when he said that the objective of right when he said that the objective of Zionism is to make Palestine as Jewish Zionism is to make Palestine as Jewish Zionism is to make Palestine as Jewish as England is English or France is as England is English or France is as England is English or France is French um in other words um as as Norman French um in other words um as as Norman French um in other words um as as Norman explains explains explains um a Jewish um a Jewish um a Jewish State requires State requires State requires Jewish political demographic and Jewish political demographic and Jewish political demographic and territorial Supremacy without those territorial Supremacy without those territorial Supremacy without those three elements um the state would be three elements um the state would be three elements um the state would be Jewish in name only and I think what Jewish in name only and I think what Jewish in name only and I think what distinguishes Zionism is its distinguishes Zionism is its distinguishes Zionism is its insistence Supremacy and insistence Supremacy and insistence Supremacy and exclusivity that would be my first point exclusivity that would be my first point exclusivity that would be my first point second point is um I think what the second point is um I think what the second point is um I think what the Soviet foreign minister at the time Soviet foreign minister at the time Soviet foreign minister at the time Andre gromo said is exactly right with Andre gromo said is exactly right with Andre gromo said is exactly right with one one one reservation um gomo was describing a reservation um gomo was describing a reservation um gomo was describing a European savagery Unleashed against European savagery Unleashed against European savagery Unleashed against Europe's Jews at the time you know it Europe's Jews at the time you know it Europe's Jews at the time you know it wasn't Palestinians or Arabs uh the wasn't Palestinians or Arabs uh the wasn't Palestinians or Arabs uh the Savages and The Barbarians were European Savages and The Barbarians were European Savages and The Barbarians were European to the to the to the core um it had nothing to do with core um it had nothing to do with core um it had nothing to do with development development development in Palestine um uh or the Middle

in Palestine um uh or the Middle in Palestine um uh or the Middle East secondly at the time that groma was East secondly at the time that groma was East secondly at the time that groma was speaking um those Jewish uh survivors of speaking um those Jewish uh survivors of speaking um those Jewish uh survivors of the Holocaust and and others who were in the Holocaust and and others who were in the Holocaust and and others who were in need of Safe Haven were still need of Safe Haven were still need of Safe Haven were still overwhelmingly on the European continent overwhelmingly on the European continent overwhelmingly on the European continent and not on Palestine not in Palestine and not on Palestine not in Palestine and not on Palestine not in Palestine and I think and I think and I think um given um the scale of the savagery I um given um the scale of the savagery I um given um the scale of the savagery I don't think that any one state or don't think that any one state or don't think that any one state or country um should have borne the country um should have borne the country um should have borne the responsibility uh for addressing this responsibility uh for addressing this responsibility uh for addressing this crisis I think it should have been an crisis I think it should have been an crisis I think it should have been an international uh international uh international uh responsibility um the Soviet Union could responsibility um the Soviet Union could responsibility um the Soviet Union could have contributed Germany certainly could have contributed Germany certainly could have contributed Germany certainly could and should have uh contributed um the and should have uh contributed um the and should have uh contributed um the United Kingdom and the United States uh United Kingdom and the United States uh United Kingdom and the United States uh which slammed their doors shut to um uh which slammed their doors shut to um uh which slammed their doors shut to um uh the persecuted Jews of Europe as the the persecuted Jews of Europe as the the persecuted Jews of Europe as the Nazis were rising to power they Nazis were rising to power they Nazis were rising to power they certainly should have uh played a role certainly should have uh played a role certainly should have uh played a role but instead what passed for the but instead what passed for the but instead what passed for the International Community at the time International Community at the time International Community at the time decided to partition Palestine and here decided to partition Palestine and here decided to partition Palestine and here I think we need to um uh judge the I think we need to um uh judge the I think we need to um uh judge the partition resolution against the partition resolution against the partition resolution against the realities that obtained at the realities that obtained at the realities that obtained at the time um two 2third of the population of time um two 2third of the population of time um two 2third of the population of Palestine was Palestine was Palestine was Arab uh the yeshu the Jewish community Arab uh the yeshu the Jewish community Arab uh the yeshu the Jewish community in Palestine constituted about onethird

in Palestine constituted about onethird in Palestine constituted about onethird of the total population and controlled of the total population and controlled of the total population and controlled even less of um of of the land uh within even less of um of of the land uh within even less of um of of the land uh within Palestine as as a preeminent Palestinian Palestine as as a preeminent Palestinian Palestine as as a preeminent Palestinian historian uh W Al khi has pointed out historian uh W Al khi has pointed out historian uh W Al khi has pointed out the partition resolution in giving the partition resolution in giving the partition resolution in giving roughly roughly roughly 55% of Palestine to the Jewish 55% of Palestine to the Jewish 55% of Palestine to the Jewish Community um and I I think 41 Community um and I I think 41 Community um and I I think 41 42% uh to the Arab Community to the 42% uh to the Arab Community to the 42% uh to the Arab Community to the Palestinians did not preserve the Palestinians did not preserve the Palestinians did not preserve the position of each Community or even um uh position of each Community or even um uh position of each Community or even um uh favor one community at the expense of favor one community at the expense of favor one community at the expense of the others rather it thoroughly inverted the others rather it thoroughly inverted the others rather it thoroughly inverted and and and revolutionized uh the relationship uh revolutionized uh the relationship uh revolutionized uh the relationship uh between between the two communities and between between the two communities and between between the two communities and as many have written the the neba was as many have written the the neba was as many have written the the neba was the the the inevitable consequence of partition inevitable consequence of partition inevitable consequence of partition given the nature of Zionism um given the given the nature of Zionism um given the given the nature of Zionism um given the territorial disposition given the territorial disposition given the territorial disposition given the weakness of the Palestinian Community weakness of the Palestinian Community weakness of the Palestinian Community whose leadership had been largely de uh whose leadership had been largely de uh whose leadership had been largely de uh decimated during a major Revolt at the decimated during a major Revolt at the decimated during a major Revolt at the end of the end of the end of the 1930s um given that the Arab states uh 1930s um given that the Arab states uh 1930s um given that the Arab states uh were still very much under French and were still very much under French and were still very much under French and British British British influence um uh the neba was was um influence um uh the neba was was um influence um uh the neba was was um inevitable the inevitable product of the inevitable the inevitable product of the inevitable the inevitable product of the um partition uh resolution and and one

um partition uh resolution and and one um partition uh resolution and and one last point also about um the the un's last point also about um the the un's last point also about um the the un's partition resolution is yes um formally partition resolution is yes um formally partition resolution is yes um formally that is what the International Community that is what the International Community that is what the International Community decided in on the 29th of November decided in on the 29th of November decided in on the 29th of November 1947 it's not a resolution that could 1947 it's not a resolution that could 1947 it's not a resolution that could ever have gotten through the UN General ever have gotten through the UN General ever have gotten through the UN General Assembly today for a very simple reason Assembly today for a very simple reason Assembly today for a very simple reason it was a very different General Assembly it was a very different General Assembly it was a very different General Assembly most African most Asian States um were most African most Asian States um were most African most Asian States um were not yet not yet not yet independent um were the resolution to be independent um were the resolution to be independent um were the resolution to be placed before the International placed before the International placed before the International Community today and I find it telling Community today and I find it telling Community today and I find it telling that um uh the minority opinion was led that um uh the minority opinion was led that um uh the minority opinion was led by India Iran and Yugoslavia I think by India Iran and Yugoslavia I think by India Iran and Yugoslavia I think they would have represented the clear um they would have represented the clear um they would have represented the clear um uh majority so uh majority so uh majority so partition given what we know about partition given what we know about partition given what we know about Zionism given that it was was entirely Zionism given that it was was entirely Zionism given that it was was entirely predictable what would happen given um predictable what would happen given um predictable what would happen given um uh the realities on the ground in uh the realities on the ground in uh the realities on the ground in Palestine um was deeply unjust and the Palestine um was deeply unjust and the Palestine um was deeply unjust and the idea that either the Palestinians or the idea that either the Palestinians or the idea that either the Palestinians or the Arab states could have accepted um such Arab states could have accepted um such Arab states could have accepted um such a resolution is is I think um uh an a resolution is is I think um uh an a resolution is is I think um uh an illusion that was in illusion that was in illusion that was in 1947 we saw what happened in 48 and 1947 we saw what happened in 48 and 1947 we saw what happened in 48 and 49 Palestinian Society was essentially 49 Palestinian Society was essentially 49 Palestinian Society was essentially um uh destroyed over 80% I believe of um uh destroyed over 80% I believe of um uh destroyed over 80% I believe of Palestinians resident in the territory Palestinians resident in the territory Palestinians resident in the territory that became the state of Israel were

that became the state of Israel were that became the state of Israel were either expelled or fled uh and either expelled or fled uh and either expelled or fled uh and ultimately were ethnically cleansed ultimately were ethnically cleansed ultimately were ethnically cleansed because ethnic cleansing consists of two because ethnic cleansing consists of two because ethnic cleansing consists of two components it's not just forcing people components it's not just forcing people components it's not just forcing people into Refuge or expelling them it's just into Refuge or expelling them it's just into Refuge or expelling them it's just as importantly preventing their return as importantly preventing their return as importantly preventing their return and here and and and beny Morris has and here and and and beny Morris has and here and and and beny Morris has written I think an article about ysph written I think an article about ysph written I think an article about ysph vites and the transfer committees um vites and the transfer committees um vites and the transfer committees um there was a very detailed initiative to there was a very detailed initiative to there was a very detailed initiative to prevent their return and it consisted of prevent their return and it consisted of prevent their return and it consisted of raising hundreds of Palestinian villages raising hundreds of Palestinian villages raising hundreds of Palestinian villages to the ground which was systematically to the ground which was systematically to the ground which was systematically implemented and so on and so implemented and so on and so implemented and so on and so Palestinians became a stateless people Palestinians became a stateless people Palestinians became a stateless people now um what is the most important reason now um what is the most important reason now um what is the most important reason that no Arab state was established um in that no Arab state was established um in that no Arab state was established um in Palestine well since the Palestine well since the Palestine well since the 1930s um the Zionist 1930s um the Zionist 1930s um the Zionist leadership and um the hashm might um uh leadership and um the hashm might um uh leadership and um the hashm might um uh leadership of uh Jordan as has been uh leadership of uh Jordan as has been uh leadership of uh Jordan as has been uh thoroughly researched and written about thoroughly researched and written about thoroughly researched and written about by the Israeli British historian aiim by the Israeli British historian aiim by the Israeli British historian aiim essentially essentially essentially colluded um to prevent the establishment colluded um to prevent the establishment colluded um to prevent the establishment of an independent Arab State um in of an independent Arab State um in of an independent Arab State um in Palestine uh in the late Palestine uh in the late Palestine uh in the late 1940s um there's there's much more here 1940s um there's there's much more here 1940s um there's there's much more here but I think um those those are the key but I think um those those are the key but I think um those those are the key points I I would make about uh points I I would make about uh points I I would make about uh 1948 we may talk about Zionism Britain y 1948 we may talk about Zionism Britain y 1948 we may talk about Zionism Britain y assemblies and all all the things you assemblies and all all the things you assemblies and all all the things you mentioned there's a lot to dig into so mentioned there's a lot to dig into so mentioned there's a lot to dig into so again if you can keep it to just one

again if you can keep it to just one again if you can keep it to just one statement moving forward after Sten if statement moving forward after Sten if statement moving forward after Sten if you want to go a little longer uh also you want to go a little longer uh also you want to go a little longer uh also we should acknowledge the fact that the we should acknowledge the fact that the we should acknowledge the fact that the speaking speeds of of people here are speaking speeds of of people here are speaking speeds of of people here are different Stephen speaks about 10 times different Stephen speaks about 10 times different Stephen speaks about 10 times faster uh than me uh Stephen do you want faster uh than me uh Stephen do you want faster uh than me uh Stephen do you want to comment on 1948 yeah I think it's to comment on 1948 yeah I think it's to comment on 1948 yeah I think it's interesting where people choose to start interesting where people choose to start interesting where people choose to start the history um I noticed a lot of people the history um I noticed a lot of people the history um I noticed a lot of people like to start at either 47 or 48 because like to start at either 47 or 48 because like to start at either 47 or 48 because it's the first time where they can it's the first time where they can it's the first time where they can clearly point to a catastrophe that clearly point to a catastrophe that clearly point to a catastrophe that occurs on the Arab side that they want occurs on the Arab side that they want occurs on the Arab side that they want to ascribe 100% of the blame to the to ascribe 100% of the blame to the to ascribe 100% of the blame to the newly emergent Israeli state to uh but I newly emergent Israeli state to uh but I newly emergent Israeli state to uh but I feel like when you have this type of feel like when you have this type of feel like when you have this type of reading of History it feels like the reading of History it feels like the reading of History it feels like the goal is to moralize everything first and goal is to moralize everything first and goal is to moralize everything first and then to pick and choose facts that kind then to pick and choose facts that kind then to pick and choose facts that kind of support the statements of your of support the statements of your of support the statements of your initial moral statement afterwards um initial moral statement afterwards um initial moral statement afterwards um whenever people are talking about 48 or whenever people are talking about 48 or whenever people are talking about 48 or the establishment of the Arab State uh I the establishment of the Arab State uh I the establishment of the Arab State uh I never hear about uh the fact that a never hear about uh the fact that a never hear about uh the fact that a Civil War started in 47 uh that was Civil War started in 47 uh that was Civil War started in 47 uh that was largely instigated because of the Arab largely instigated because of the Arab largely instigated because of the Arab rejectionism of the 47 partition plan uh rejectionism of the 47 partition plan uh rejectionism of the 47 partition plan uh I never hear about the fact that the I never hear about the fact that the I never hear about the fact that the majority of the land that was acquired majority of the land that was acquired majority of the land that was acquired happened by purchases from Jewish happened by purchases from Jewish happened by purchases from Jewish organizations of uh Palestinian Arabs of organizations of uh Palestinian Arabs of organizations of uh Palestinian Arabs of the Ottoman Empire before the mandatory the Ottoman Empire before the mandatory the Ottoman Empire before the mandatory period in 1920 even started um funnily period in 1920 even started um funnily period in 1920 even started um funnily enough King Abdullah of Jordan uh was enough King Abdullah of Jordan uh was enough King Abdullah of Jordan uh was quoted as saying the Arabs are as quoted as saying the Arabs are as quoted as saying the Arabs are as prodical in selling their land as they prodical in selling their land as they prodical in selling their land as they are in Weeping about it uh I never hear are in Weeping about it uh I never hear are in Weeping about it uh I never hear about the multiple times that Arabs about the multiple times that Arabs about the multiple times that Arabs rejected partition uh rejected living rejected partition uh rejected living rejected partition uh rejected living with Jews um rejected any sort of state

with Jews um rejected any sort of state with Jews um rejected any sort of state that would have even uh had any sort of that would have even uh had any sort of that would have even uh had any sort of Jewish exclusivity it's funny because it Jewish exclusivity it's funny because it Jewish exclusivity it's funny because it was brought up before that the partition was brought up before that the partition was brought up before that the partition plan was unfair and that's why the Arabs plan was unfair and that's why the Arabs plan was unfair and that's why the Arabs rejected it as though they rejected it rejected it as though they rejected it rejected it as though they rejected it because it was unfair because of the because it was unfair because of the because it was unfair because of the amount of land that Jews were given and amount of land that Jews were given and amount of land that Jews were given and not just due to the fact that Jews were not just due to the fact that Jews were not just due to the fact that Jews were given land at all as though a 30% given land at all as though a 30% given land at all as though a 30% partition or 25% partition would have partition or 25% partition would have partition or 25% partition would have been accepted when I don't think that been accepted when I don't think that been accepted when I don't think that was the reality of the circumstances I was the reality of the circumstances I was the reality of the circumstances I feel like most of the other stuff has feel like most of the other stuff has feel like most of the other stuff has been said but I I I noticed that um been said but I I I noticed that um been said but I I I noticed that um whenever people talk about 48 or the whenever people talk about 48 or the whenever people talk about 48 or the years preceding 48 um I think the worst years preceding 48 um I think the worst years preceding 48 um I think the worst thing that happens is there's a there's thing that happens is there's a there's thing that happens is there's a there's a cherry picking of the facts where a cherry picking of the facts where a cherry picking of the facts where basically all of the blame is ascribed basically all of the blame is ascribed basically all of the blame is ascribed to this uh this built-in idea of Zionism to this uh this built-in idea of Zionism to this uh this built-in idea of Zionism that because of a handful of quotes or that because of a handful of quotes or that because of a handful of quotes or because of an ideology we can say that because of an ideology we can say that because of an ideology we can say that transfer or population exposion or the transfer or population exposion or the transfer or population exposion or the the basically the Mandate of all of the basically the Mandate of all of the basically the Mandate of all of these Arabs being kicked off the land these Arabs being kicked off the land these Arabs being kicked off the land was always going to happen when I think was always going to happen when I think was always going to happen when I think there's a refusal sometimes as well to there's a refusal sometimes as well to there's a refusal sometimes as well to acknowledge that regardless of the ideas acknowledge that regardless of the ideas acknowledge that regardless of the ideas of some of the Zionist leaders there is of some of the Zionist leaders there is of some of the Zionist leaders there is a political social and Military reality a political social and Military reality a political social and Military reality on the ground that they're forced to on the ground that they're forced to on the ground that they're forced to contend with and unfortunately the Arabs contend with and unfortunately the Arabs contend with and unfortunately the Arabs because of their inability to engage in because of their inability to engage in because of their inability to engage in diplomacy and only to use tools of War diplomacy and only to use tools of War diplomacy and only to use tools of War to try to negotiate everything going on to try to negotiate everything going on to try to negotiate everything going on in mandatory Palestine basically always in mandatory Palestine basically always in mandatory Palestine basically always gave the Jews a reason or an excuse to gave the Jews a reason or an excuse to gave the Jews a reason or an excuse to fight and acquire land through that way fight and acquire land through that way fight and acquire land through that way uh because of their refusal to negotiate uh because of their refusal to negotiate uh because of their refusal to negotiate on anything else whether it was the on anything else whether it was the on anything else whether it was the partition plan in 47 whether it was the partition plan in 47 whether it was the partition plan in 47 whether it was the uh the Lucan peace conference afterwards uh the Lucan peace conference afterwards uh the Lucan peace conference afterwards where Israel even offered to Annex Gaza where Israel even offered to Annex Gaza where Israel even offered to Annex Gaza in 51 where they offered to take in in 51 where they offered to take in in 51 where they offered to take in 100,000 refugees every single deal is 100,000 refugees every single deal is 100,000 refugees every single deal is just rejected out of hand because the just rejected out of hand because the just rejected out of hand because the Arabs don't want a Jewish State anywhere Arabs don't want a Jewish State anywhere Arabs don't want a Jewish State anywhere in this region of the world I would like

in this region of the world I would like in this region of the world I would like to engage Professor Morris if you don't to engage Professor Morris if you don't to engage Professor Morris if you don't mind I'm not with the first name it's mind I'm not with the first name it's mind I'm not with the first name it's just not my way of relating you can just just not my way of relating you can just just not my way of relating you can just call me Morris you don't need the call me Morris you don't need the call me Morris you don't need the professor professor professor okay there's a real problem here and okay there's a real problem here and okay there's a real problem here and it's been the problem I've had over many it's been the problem I've had over many it's been the problem I've had over many years of reading your work apart perhaps years of reading your work apart perhaps years of reading your work apart perhaps from as grandchild I suspect nobody from as grandchild I suspect nobody from as grandchild I suspect nobody knows your work better than I do I've knows your work better than I do I've knows your work better than I do I've read it many times not once not twice at read it many times not once not twice at read it many times not once not twice at least three times everything you've least three times everything you've least three times everything you've written and the problem is it's a kind written and the problem is it's a kind written and the problem is it's a kind of of of quicksilver you very hard to quicksilver you very hard to quicksilver you very hard to grasp a point and hold you to it so grasp a point and hold you to it so grasp a point and hold you to it so we're going to try here to to see we're going to try here to to see we're going to try here to to see whether we can hold you to a point and whether we can hold you to a point and whether we can hold you to a point and then you argue with me the point I have then you argue with me the point I have then you argue with me the point I have no problem with no problem with no problem with that that that uh your name please Sten banel okay Mr uh your name please Sten banel okay Mr uh your name please Sten banel okay Mr banel referred to banel referred to banel referred to cherry-picking and handful of cherry-picking and handful of cherry-picking and handful of quotes quotes quotes now it's true that when you wrote your now it's true that when you wrote your now it's true that when you wrote your first book on the Palestinian refugee first book on the Palestinian refugee first book on the Palestinian refugee question you only had a few lines on question you only had a few lines on question you only had a few lines on this issue of transfer four pages yeah this issue of transfer four pages yeah this issue of transfer four pages yeah in the first book in the first book four in the first book in the first book four in the first book in the first book four pages maybe before you know I'm not pages maybe before you know I'm not pages maybe before you know I'm not going to quarrel my memory is not clear going to quarrel my memory is not clear going to quarrel my memory is not clear we're talking about 40 years ago I read we're talking about 40 years ago I read we're talking about 40 years ago I read it I read it but then I read other it I read it but then I read other it I read it but then I read other things by you okay and you were taken to things by you okay and you were taken to things by you okay and you were taken to task of my memories correct that you

task of my memories correct that you task of my memories correct that you hadn't adequately documented the claims hadn't adequately documented the claims hadn't adequately documented the claims of transfer let me allow me to finish of transfer let me allow me to finish of transfer let me allow me to finish and I thought that was a reasonable and I thought that was a reasonable and I thought that was a reasonable challenge because it was an unusual challenge because it was an unusual challenge because it was an unusual usual claim for a mainstream Israeli usual claim for a mainstream Israeli usual claim for a mainstream Israeli historian to say as you did in that historian to say as you did in that historian to say as you did in that first book that from the very beginning first book that from the very beginning first book that from the very beginning transfer figured prominently in Zionist transfer figured prominently in Zionist transfer figured prominently in Zionist thinking that wasn't unusual if you read thinking that wasn't unusual if you read thinking that wasn't unusual if you read Anita shapira shapira you read chapai Anita shapira shapira you read chapai Anita shapira shapira you read chapai heit that was an unusual acknowledgement heit that was an unusual acknowledgement heit that was an unusual acknowledgement by you and then I found it very by you and then I found it very by you and then I found it very impressive that in that revised version impressive that in that revised version impressive that in that revised version of your first book you devoted 25 of your first book you devoted 25 of your first book you devoted 25 pages to pages to pages to copiously copiously copiously documenting the documenting the documenting the salience of salience of salience of transfer in Zionist thinking and in fact transfer in Zionist thinking and in fact transfer in Zionist thinking and in fact you used a very you used a very you used a very provocative and resonant provocative and resonant provocative and resonant phrase you said that transfer was phrase you said that transfer was phrase you said that transfer was inevitable and inevitable and inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism we're not talking inbuilt into Zionism we're not talking inbuilt into Zionism we're not talking about circumstantial factors a war Arab about circumstantial factors a war Arab about circumstantial factors a war Arab hostility you said it's

hostility you said it's hostility you said it's inevitable and inbuilt into inevitable and inbuilt into inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism now as I said so we won't be Zionism now as I said so we won't be Zionism now as I said so we won't be accused of accused of accused of cherry-picking those were cherry-picking those were cherry-picking those were 25 very densely argued 25 very densely argued 25 very densely argued pages and then in an interview and I pages and then in an interview and I pages and then in an interview and I could cite several quotes but I'll could cite several quotes but I'll could cite several quotes but I'll choose one you said removing a choose one you said removing a choose one you said removing a population was population was population was needed let's look at the words without a needed let's look at the words without a needed let's look at the words without a population population population exposion a Jewish state exposion a Jewish state exposion a Jewish state would not have been would not have been would not have been established now you were the one again I established now you were the one again I established now you were the one again I was very surprised when I read your book was very surprised when I read your book was very surprised when I read your book here I'm referring to righteous victims here I'm referring to righteous victims here I'm referring to righteous victims I was very surprised when I came to that I was very surprised when I came to that I was very surprised when I came to that page page page 37 where you wrote that territorial 37 where you wrote that territorial 37 where you wrote that territorial displacement and displacement and displacement and dispossession was the CH Chief motor dispossession was the CH Chief motor dispossession was the CH Chief motor of Arab resistance to of Arab resistance to of Arab resistance to Zionism territorial displacement and Zionism territorial displacement and Zionism territorial displacement and dispossession were the chief motor of dispossession were the chief motor of dispossession were the chief motor of Arab resistance Des Arab resistance Des Arab resistance Des Zionism so you then went on to say Zionism so you then went on to say Zionism so you then went on to say because the Arab because the Arab because the Arab population rationally

population rationally population rationally feared territorial displacement and feared territorial displacement and feared territorial displacement and dispossession it of course opposed dispossession it of course opposed dispossession it of course opposed Zionism that say normal as Native Zionism that say normal as Native Zionism that say normal as Native Americans opposing the Americans opposing the Americans opposing the euroamerican Manifest Destiny in the euroamerican Manifest Destiny in the euroamerican Manifest Destiny in the history of our own country because they history of our own country because they history of our own country because they understood it would be at their understood it would be at their understood it would be at their expense it was inbuilt and expense it was inbuilt and expense it was inbuilt and inevitable and so now for you to come inevitable and so now for you to come inevitable and so now for you to come along and say that it all happened just along and say that it all happened just along and say that it all happened just because of the because of the because of the war that otherwise the zionists made all war that otherwise the zionists made all war that otherwise the zionists made all these plans for a happy minority to live these plans for a happy minority to live these plans for a happy minority to live there that simply does not gel it does there that simply does not gel it does there that simply does not gel it does not cohere it is not not cohere it is not not cohere it is not reconcilable with what you yourself have reconcilable with what you yourself have reconcilable with what you yourself have written it was inevitable and inbuilt written it was inevitable and inbuilt written it was inevitable and inbuilt now in other situations you've now in other situations you've now in other situations you've said that's true but I think it was a said that's true but I think it was a said that's true but I think it was a greater good to establish a Jewish State greater good to establish a Jewish State greater good to establish a Jewish State at the expense of the uh indigenous at the expense of the uh indigenous at the expense of the uh indigenous population that's another kind of population that's another kind of population that's another kind of argument that was Theodore Roosevelt's argument that was Theodore Roosevelt's argument that was Theodore Roosevelt's argument in our own country he said we argument in our own country he said we argument in our own country he said we don't want the whole of North America to don't want the whole of North America to don't want the whole of North America to remain a remain a remain a squalid refuge for these wigwams and squalid refuge for these wigwams and squalid refuge for these wigwams and teps we have to get rid of them and make teps we have to get rid of them and make teps we have to get rid of them and make this a great this a great this a great country but he didn't

country but he didn't country but he didn't deny that it was inbuilt and inevitable deny that it was inbuilt and inevitable deny that it was inbuilt and inevitable I think you've made your point first I think you've made your point first I think you've made your point first I'll take up something that mu said he I'll take up something that mu said he I'll take up something that mu said he said that the nakba was said that the nakba was said that the nakba was inevitable as have you and predictable inevitable as have you and predictable inevitable as have you and predictable no no no I I've never said that it was no no no I I've never said that it was no no no I I've never said that it was inevitable and predictable only because inevitable and predictable only because inevitable and predictable only because the Arabs assaulted the Jewish community the Arabs assaulted the Jewish community the Arabs assaulted the Jewish community and state in 1947 48 had there been no and state in 1947 48 had there been no and state in 1947 48 had there been no assault there probably wouldn't have assault there probably wouldn't have assault there probably wouldn't have been a refugee problem there's no reason been a refugee problem there's no reason been a refugee problem there's no reason for a refugee problem to have occurred for a refugee problem to have occurred for a refugee problem to have occurred expulsions to have occurred a expulsions to have occurred a expulsions to have occurred a dispossession massive dispossession to dispossession massive dispossession to dispossession massive dispossession to occur these occurred as a result of War occur these occurred as a result of War occur these occurred as a result of War now Norman said that I said that now Norman said that I said that now Norman said that I said that transfer was inbuilt into Zionism in one transfer was inbuilt into Zionism in one transfer was inbuilt into Zionism in one way or another and this is certainly way or another and this is certainly way or another and this is certainly true in order to buy land they had the true in order to buy land they had the true in order to buy land they had the Jews bought tracts of land on which some Jews bought tracts of land on which some Jews bought tracts of land on which some Arabs sometimes lived sometimes they Arabs sometimes lived sometimes they Arabs sometimes lived sometimes they bought tracts of land on which they bought tracts of land on which they bought tracts of land on which they weren't Arab Villages but sometimes they weren't Arab Villages but sometimes they weren't Arab Villages but sometimes they bought land on which they were Arabs and bought land on which they were Arabs and bought land on which they were Arabs and according to ottoman law and the British according to ottoman law and the British according to ottoman law and the British at least in the initial a year years of at least in the initial a year years of at least in the initial a year years of the the British mandate the law said the the British mandate the law said the the British mandate the law said that the people who bought the land that the people who bought the land that the people who bought the land could do what they liked with the people could do what they liked with the people could do what they liked with the people who didn't own the land who were who didn't own the land who were who didn't own the land who were basically squatting on the land which is basically squatting on the land which is basically squatting on the land which is the Arab tenant Farmers which is we're the Arab tenant Farmers which is we're the Arab tenant Farmers which is we're talking about a very small number talking about a very small number talking about a very small number actually of Arabs who were displaced as actually of Arabs who were displaced as actually of Arabs who were displaced as a result of land purchases in the a result of land purchases in the a result of land purchases in the automon period or the Mandate period but automon period or the Mandate period but automon period or the Mandate period but there was dispossession in one way they there was dispossession in one way they there was dispossession in one way they didn't possess the land they didn't own

didn't possess the land they didn't own didn't possess the land they didn't own it but they were removed from the land it but they were removed from the land it but they were removed from the land and this did happen in Zionism and and this did happen in Zionism and and this did happen in Zionism and there's there's there's if you like an inevitability in Zionist if you like an inevitability in Zionist if you like an inevitability in Zionist ideology of buying tracts of land and ideology of buying tracts of land and ideology of buying tracts of land and starting to work at yourself and settle starting to work at yourself and settle starting to work at yourself and settle it with your own people and so on that it with your own people and so on that it with your own people and so on that made sense but what we're really talking made sense but what we're really talking made sense but what we're really talking about is what happened in 47 48 and in about is what happened in 47 48 and in about is what happened in 47 48 and in 4748 the Arabs started a war and 4748 the Arabs started a war and 4748 the Arabs started a war and actually people pay for their mistakes actually people pay for their mistakes actually people pay for their mistakes and the Palestinians have never actually and the Palestinians have never actually and the Palestinians have never actually agreed to pay for their mistakes they agreed to pay for their mistakes they agreed to pay for their mistakes they make mistakes they attack they suffer as make mistakes they attack they suffer as make mistakes they attack they suffer as a a result and we see something similar a a result and we see something similar a a result and we see something similar going on today in GA in the Gaza Strip going on today in GA in the Gaza Strip going on today in GA in the Gaza Strip they do something terrible they kill they do something terrible they kill they do something terrible they kill 1200 Jews they abduct 250 women and 1200 Jews they abduct 250 women and 1200 Jews they abduct 250 women and children and babies and um old people children and babies and um old people children and babies and um old people and whatever and then they start and whatever and then they start and whatever and then they start screaming please save us from what we screaming please save us from what we screaming please save us from what we did because the Jews are did because the Jews are did because the Jews are counterattacking and this is what counterattacking and this is what counterattacking and this is what happened then and this is what's happened then and this is what's happened then and this is what's happening now there's something fairly happening now there's something fairly happening now there's something fairly similar in the situation here expulsion similar in the situation here expulsion similar in the situation here expulsion and this is important Norman you should and this is important Norman you should and this is important Norman you should pay attention to this you did raise that pay attention to this you did raise that pay attention to this you did raise that expulsion transfer were never policy of expulsion transfer were never policy of expulsion transfer were never policy of the Zionist movement before 47 it the Zionist movement before 47 it the Zionist movement before 47 it doesn't exist in a Zionist platforms of doesn't exist in a Zionist platforms of doesn't exist in a Zionist platforms of the various political parties of the the various political parties of the the various political parties of the Zionist organization of the Israeli Zionist organization of the Israeli Zionist organization of the Israeli state of the Jewish agency nobody would state of the Jewish agency nobody would state of the Jewish agency nobody would have actually made it into policy have actually made it into policy have actually made it into policy because it was always a large minority because it was always a large minority because it was always a large minority if there were people who wanted it if there were people who wanted it if there were people who wanted it always a large minority of Jewish always a large minority of Jewish always a large minority of Jewish politicians and leaders would have said

politicians and leaders would have said politicians and leaders would have said no this is immoral we cannot start a no this is immoral we cannot start a no this is immoral we cannot start a state on the basis of an expulsion so it state on the basis of an expulsion so it state on the basis of an expulsion so it was never adopted and actually was never was never adopted and actually was never was never adopted and actually was never adopted as policy even in 48 even though adopted as policy even in 48 even though adopted as policy even in 48 even though Boran wanted as few Arabs in the course Boran wanted as few Arabs in the course Boran wanted as few Arabs in the course of the war staying in the Jewish state of the war staying in the Jewish state of the war staying in the Jewish state after they attacked it he didn't want after they attacked it he didn't want after they attacked it he didn't want this loyal citizen staying there because this loyal citizen staying there because this loyal citizen staying there because they wouldn't have been loyal citizens they wouldn't have been loyal citizens they wouldn't have been loyal citizens but this made sense in the war itself but this made sense in the war itself but this made sense in the war itself but the movement itself and its but the movement itself and its but the movement itself and its political parties never accepted it it's political parties never accepted it it's political parties never accepted it it's true that in 1937 when the British as true that in 1937 when the British as true that in 1937 when the British as part of the proposal by the peel part of the proposal by the peel part of the proposal by the peel commission um to divide the country into commission um to divide the country into commission um to divide the country into two states one Arab one Jewish which the two states one Arab one Jewish which the two states one Arab one Jewish which the Arabs of course rejected a appeal also Arabs of course rejected a appeal also Arabs of course rejected a appeal also recommended that the Arabs most of the recommended that the Arabs most of the recommended that the Arabs most of the Arabs in the Jewish state to be should Arabs in the Jewish state to be should Arabs in the Jewish state to be should be transferred because otherwise if they be transferred because otherwise if they be transferred because otherwise if they stayed and were disloyal to the emerging stayed and were disloyal to the emerging stayed and were disloyal to the emerging Jewish State this would cause endless Jewish State this would cause endless Jewish State this would cause endless disturbances Warfare killing and so on a disturbances Warfare killing and so on a disturbances Warfare killing and so on a so Boran and whitesman latched onto this so Boran and whitesman latched onto this so Boran and whitesman latched onto this proposal by the F most famous America proposal by the F most famous America proposal by the F most famous America democracy in the world the British democracy in the world the British democracy in the world the British democracy when they proposed the idea of democracy when they proposed the idea of democracy when they proposed the idea of transfer side by side with the idea of transfer side by side with the idea of transfer side by side with the idea of partition because it made sense um and partition because it made sense um and partition because it made sense um and they said well if the British say so we they said well if the British say so we they said well if the British say so we should also advocated but they never should also advocated but they never should also advocated but they never actually tried to pass it as Zionist actually tried to pass it as Zionist actually tried to pass it as Zionist policy and they fairly quickly stopped policy and they fairly quickly stopped policy and they fairly quickly stopped even talking about transfer after 1938 even talking about transfer after 1938 even talking about transfer after 1938 so just to clarify what you're saying is

so just to clarify what you're saying is so just to clarify what you're saying is that uh 40 7 was an offensive War not a that uh 40 7 was an offensive War not a that uh 40 7 was an offensive War not a defensive War by the Arabs yes by the defensive War by the Arabs yes by the defensive War by the Arabs yes by the Arabs yeah and you're also saying that Arabs yeah and you're also saying that Arabs yeah and you're also saying that there was never a top down policy of there was never a top down policy of there was never a top down policy of expulsion yes just to clarify the point expulsion yes just to clarify the point expulsion yes just to clarify the point if I understood you if I understood you if I understood you correctly um you're making you're making correctly um you're making you're making correctly um you're making you're making the claim that transfer expulsion and so the claim that transfer expulsion and so the claim that transfer expulsion and so on was was in fact a very on was was in fact a very on was was in fact a very localized phenomenon result resulting localized phenomenon result resulting localized phenomenon result resulting from individual land from individual land from individual land purchases um and that if I understand purchases um and that if I understand purchases um and that if I understand you correctly you're also making the you correctly you're also making the you correctly you're also making the claim um that the idea that a Jewish claim um that the idea that a Jewish claim um that the idea that a Jewish State requires a um removal or State requires a um removal or State requires a um removal or overwhelming reduction of the non-jewish overwhelming reduction of the non-jewish overwhelming reduction of the non-jewish population was if the Arabs are population was if the Arabs are population was if the Arabs are attacking you yes but but that let's say attacking you yes but but that let's say attacking you yes but but that let's say prior to prior to prior to 1947 it would be your claim um 1947 it would be your claim um 1947 it would be your claim um that the idea that a significant that the idea that a significant that the idea that a significant reduction or wholesale removal of the a reduction or wholesale removal of the a reduction or wholesale removal of the a population was not part of of Zionist population was not part of of Zionist population was not part of of Zionist thinking well I I think there's two thinking well I I think there's two thinking well I I think there's two problems with that um I think what problems with that um I think what problems with that um I think what you're saying about localized uh you're saying about localized uh you're saying about localized uh disputes is correct but I also think disputes is correct but I also think disputes is correct but I also think that um uh there is a whole that um uh there is a whole that um uh there is a whole literature that demonstrates um that

literature that demonstrates um that literature that demonstrates um that transfer was envisioned by Zionist transfer was envisioned by Zionist transfer was envisioned by Zionist leaders on a much broader scale than leaders on a much broader scale than leaders on a much broader scale than simply individual land purchases in simply individual land purchases in simply individual land purchases in other words it's it it went Way Beyond other words it's it it went Way Beyond other words it's it it went Way Beyond we need to remove these tenants so that we need to remove these tenants so that we need to remove these tenants so that we can form this land the idea was we we can form this land the idea was we we can form this land the idea was we can't have a state where all these Arabs can't have a state where all these Arabs can't have a state where all these Arabs remain and we have to get rid of them remain and we have to get rid of them remain and we have to get rid of them and the second I think impediment to to and the second I think impediment to to and the second I think impediment to to that view is that long before the UN that view is that long before the UN that view is that long before the UN General Assembly convened um to address General Assembly convened um to address General Assembly convened um to address the question of Palestine Palestinian the question of Palestine Palestinian the question of Palestine Palestinian and Arab and other leaders as well had and Arab and other leaders as well had and Arab and other leaders as well had been warning at infinitum that the been warning at infinitum that the been warning at infinitum that the purpose of the Zionist movement is not purpose of the Zionist movement is not purpose of the Zionist movement is not just to establish a Jewish state but to just to establish a Jewish state but to just to establish a Jewish state but to establish an establish an establish an exclusivist uh Jewish State and that exclusivist uh Jewish State and that exclusivist uh Jewish State and that transfer Force transfer Force transfer Force displacement um uh was fundamental um uh displacement um uh was fundamental um uh displacement um uh was fundamental um uh to that uh project and just respond to to that uh project and just respond to to that uh project and just respond to um uh sorry was it bonell or with a B um uh sorry was it bonell or with a B um uh sorry was it bonell or with a B yeah yeah um you made the point that um yeah yeah um you made the point that um yeah yeah um you made the point that um uh the the problem here is that people uh the the problem here is that people uh the the problem here is that people don't recognize is that the first and don't recognize is that the first and don't recognize is that the first and last result for the Arabs is always War last result for the Arabs is always War last result for the Arabs is always War I think there's a problem with that I I think there's a problem with that I I think there's a problem with that I think um you might do well to recall um think um you might do well to recall um think um you might do well to recall um the 1936 general strike conducted by

the 1936 general strike conducted by the 1936 general strike conducted by pales Ians um at the beginning of the pales Ians um at the beginning of the pales Ians um at the beginning of the Revolt which at the time was the longest Revolt which at the time was the longest Revolt which at the time was the longest recorded uh general strike in history um recorded uh general strike in history um recorded uh general strike in history um you may want to consult um the book uh you may want to consult um the book uh you may want to consult um the book uh published last year by Lori Allen a published last year by Lori Allen a published last year by Lori Allen a history of false hope which discusses in history of false hope which discusses in history of false hope which discusses in great detail the consistent engagement great detail the consistent engagement great detail the consistent engagement by Palestinians their leaders their by Palestinians their leaders their by Palestinians their leaders their Elites their diplomats and so on with Elites their diplomats and so on with Elites their diplomats and so on with all these International committees if we all these International committees if we all these International committees if we look at today the Palestinians are once look at today the Palestinians are once look at today the Palestinians are once again going to the international court again going to the international court again going to the international court of justice um they're of justice um they're of justice um they're consistently trying to persuade uh the consistently trying to persuade uh the consistently trying to persuade uh the chief prosecutor of the international chief prosecutor of the international chief prosecutor of the international criminal court to um do his job um they criminal court to um do his job um they criminal court to um do his job um they have launched widespread uh boycott have launched widespread uh boycott have launched widespread uh boycott campaigns so of course the Palestinians campaigns so of course the Palestinians campaigns so of course the Palestinians have engaged in um uh military have engaged in um uh military have engaged in um uh military resistance but I think the suggestion resistance but I think the suggestion resistance but I think the suggestion that this has always been their first that this has always been their first that this has always been their first and Last Resort and that they have and Last Resort and that they have and Last Resort and that they have somehow spurned Civic action spurned somehow spurned Civic action spurned somehow spurned Civic action spurned diplomacy I I think really has no basis diplomacy I I think really has no basis diplomacy I I think really has no basis uh in reality I'll respond to that and uh in reality I'll respond to that and uh in reality I'll respond to that and then a question for Norm to take into then a question for Norm to take into then a question for Norm to take into account I think when he answers Benny account I think when he answers Benny account I think when he answers Benny because I am curious obviously uh I have because I am curious obviously uh I have because I am curious obviously uh I have fresher eyes on this and I'm a newcomer fresher eyes on this and I'm a newcomer fresher eyes on this and I'm a newcomer to this Arena versus the three of you to this Arena versus the three of you to this Arena versus the three of you guys for sure um a claim that gets guys for sure um a claim that gets guys for sure um a claim that gets brought up a lot has to do with the brought up a lot has to do with the brought up a lot has to do with the inevitability of transfer in Zionism or inevitability of transfer in Zionism or inevitability of transfer in Zionism or the idea that as soon as the Jews the idea that as soon as the Jews the idea that as soon as the Jews envisioned a state and Palestine they

envisioned a state and Palestine they envisioned a state and Palestine they knew that it would involve some Mass knew that it would involve some Mass knew that it would involve some Mass transfer of population perhaps a mass transfer of population perhaps a mass transfer of population perhaps a mass expulsion um I'm sure we'll talk about expulsion um I'm sure we'll talk about expulsion um I'm sure we'll talk about plan Dall or Plan D at some point the plan Dall or Plan D at some point the plan Dall or Plan D at some point the issue that I run into is while you can issue that I run into is while you can issue that I run into is while you can find quotes from leaders while you can find quotes from leaders while you can find quotes from leaders while you can find maybe desires expressed in Diaries find maybe desires expressed in Diaries find maybe desires expressed in Diaries I feel like it's hard to truly ever know I feel like it's hard to truly ever know I feel like it's hard to truly ever know if there would have been Mass transfer if there would have been Mass transfer if there would have been Mass transfer in the face of Arab peace because I feel in the face of Arab peace because I feel in the face of Arab peace because I feel like every time there was a huge deal on like every time there was a huge deal on like every time there was a huge deal on the table that would have had a sizable the table that would have had a sizable the table that would have had a sizable Jewish and Arab population living Jewish and Arab population living Jewish and Arab population living together the Arabs would reject it out together the Arabs would reject it out together the Arabs would reject it out of hand so for instance when we say that of hand so for instance when we say that of hand so for instance when we say that transfer was inevitable when we say that transfer was inevitable when we say that transfer was inevitable when we say that zionists would have never accepted you zionists would have never accepted you zionists would have never accepted you know a sizable Arab population how do know a sizable Arab population how do know a sizable Arab population how do you explain the acceptance of the 47 you explain the acceptance of the 47 you explain the acceptance of the 47 partition plan that would have had a partition plan that would have had a partition plan that would have had a huge Arab population living in the huge Arab population living in the huge Arab population living in the Jewish state is your contention that Jewish state is your contention that Jewish state is your contention that after the acceptance of that after the after the acceptance of that after the after the acceptance of that after the establishment of that state that Jews establishment of that state that Jews establishment of that state that Jews would have slowly started to expel all would have slowly started to expel all would have slowly started to expel all of these Arab citizens from their of these Arab citizens from their of these Arab citizens from their country or how do you explained that in country or how do you explained that in country or how do you explained that in lcan couple years later that Israel was lcan couple years later that Israel was lcan couple years later that Israel was willing to formally Annex the Gaza Strip willing to formally Annex the Gaza Strip willing to formally Annex the Gaza Strip and make 200,000 or so people those and make 200,000 or so people those and make 200,000 or so people those citizens but but I'm I'm just curious citizens but but I'm I'm just curious citizens but but I'm I'm just curious how how do we get this idea of Zionism how how do we get this idea of Zionism how how do we get this idea of Zionism always means Mass transfer when there always means Mass transfer when there always means Mass transfer when there were times at least early on in the were times at least early on in the were times at least early on in the history of Israel and and a little bit history of Israel and and a little bit history of Israel and and a little bit before it where Israel would have before it where Israel would have before it where Israel would have accepted a state that would have had a accepted a state that would have had a accepted a state that would have had a massive Arab population in it is your massive Arab population in it is your massive Arab population in it is your yeah is your idea that they would have yeah is your idea that they would have yeah is your idea that they would have just slowly expelled them afterwards or just slowly expelled them afterwards or just slowly expelled them afterwards or is that question to me or Norm either is that question to me or Norm either is that question to me or Norm either one I'm just curious with the one I'm just curious with the one I'm just curious with the incorporation of the answer yeah um incorporation of the answer yeah um incorporation of the answer yeah um there is some misunderstandings here so there is some misunderstandings here so there is some misunderstandings here so let's try to clarify that number

let's try to clarify that number let's try to clarify that number one it was the old historians who would one it was the old historians who would one it was the old historians who would point to the fact in Professor Morris's point to the fact in Professor Morris's point to the fact in Professor Morris's terminology the old historians what he terminology the old historians what he terminology the old historians what he called not real historians he called called not real historians he called called not real historians he called them chroniclers not real historians it them chroniclers not real historians it them chroniclers not real historians it was the old Israeli historians who was the old Israeli historians who was the old Israeli historians who denied the centrality of transfer in denied the centrality of transfer in denied the centrality of transfer in Zionist Zionist Zionist thinking it was then Professor thinking it was then Professor thinking it was then Professor moris who contrary to Israel's historic moris who contrary to Israel's historic moris who contrary to Israel's historic historian historian historian establishment who said now you remind me establishment who said now you remind me establishment who said now you remind me it's four pages but it came at the end it's four pages but it came at the end it's four pages but it came at the end of the book it was no no it's at the of the book it was no no it's at the of the book it was no no it's at the beginning of the book transfer yes beginning of the book transfer yes beginning of the book transfer yes transfer is dealt with in four pages at transfer is dealt with in four pages at transfer is dealt with in four pages at the beginning of my first book on the the beginning of my first book on the the beginning of my first book on the palan refugee problem it's a fault of my palan refugee problem it's a fault of my palan refugee problem it's a fault of my memory but the point still stands it was memory but the point still stands it was memory but the point still stands it was Professor Maris who introduced this idea Professor Maris who introduced this idea Professor Maris who introduced this idea in what you might call A way yeah but I in what you might call A way yeah but I in what you might call A way yeah but I didn't say every the central to Des Des didn't say every the central to Des Des didn't say every the central to Des Des experiment or experience you're saying experiment or experience you're saying experiment or experience you're saying centrality I never said it was Central I centrality I never said it was Central I centrality I never said it was Central I said it was there the idea it's by the said it was there the idea it's by the said it was there the idea it's by the way it's okay to respond back and forth way it's okay to respond back and forth way it's okay to respond back and forth this is great and also just a quick this is great and also just a quick this is great and also just a quick question if I may you're using quotes question if I may you're using quotes question if I may you're using quotes from from Benny from Professor Morris uh from from Benny from Professor Morris uh from from Benny from Professor Morris uh it's also okay to say those quotes do it's also okay to say those quotes do it's also okay to say those quotes do not reflect the cont of so like if we go not reflect the cont of so like if we go not reflect the cont of so like if we go back if you know to quotes we've said in back if you know to quotes we've said in back if you know to quotes we've said in the past and both here have written the the past and both here have written the the past and both here have written the three of you have written on this topic

three of you have written on this topic three of you have written on this topic a lot is we should be careful and just a lot is we should be careful and just a lot is we should be careful and just admit like well yeah well just well real admit like well yeah well just well real admit like well yeah well just well real quick just to be clear that the quick just to be clear that the quick just to be clear that the contention is that Norm is quoting a contention is that Norm is quoting a contention is that Norm is quoting a part and saying that this was the entire part and saying that this was the entire part and saying that this was the entire reason for this whereas Benny saying reason for this whereas Benny saying reason for this whereas Benny saying it's a part of I'm not quoting a it's a part of I'm not quoting a it's a part of I'm not quoting a part I'm quoting 25 Pages where part I'm quoting 25 Pages where part I'm quoting 25 Pages where Professor moris was at Great Professor moris was at Great Professor moris was at Great pains to document the claim that pains to document the claim that pains to document the claim that appeared in those early four pages of appeared in those early four pages of appeared in those early four pages of his his his book now you say it never became part of book now you say it never became part of book now you say it never became part of the official Zionist platform never the official Zionist platform never the official Zionist platform never became part of policy became part of policy became part of policy F we're also asked well this is true why F we're also asked well this is true why F we're also asked well this is true why did that happen why did that happen it's did that happen why did that happen it's did that happen why did that happen it's because it's a very simple fact which because it's a very simple fact which because it's a very simple fact which everybody understands ideology doesn't everybody understands ideology doesn't everybody understands ideology doesn't operate in vacuum there are real world operate in vacuum there are real world operate in vacuum there are real world practical problems you can't just take practical problems you can't just take practical problems you can't just take an an an ideology and superimpose it on a ideology and superimpose it on a ideology and superimpose it on a political reality and turn it into a political reality and turn it into a political reality and turn it into a fact it was the British fact it was the British fact it was the British mandate there was significant Arab mandate there was significant Arab mandate there was significant Arab resistance to resistance to resistance to Zionism and that resistance was based on Zionism and that resistance was based on Zionism and that resistance was based on the fact as you said the Fe Fe of the fact as you said the Fe Fe of the fact as you said the Fe Fe of territorial displacement and territorial displacement and territorial displacement and dispossession so you couldn't very well

dispossession so you couldn't very well dispossession so you couldn't very well expect the Zionist movement to come out expect the Zionist movement to come out expect the Zionist movement to come out in neon lights and announce hey we're in neon lights and announce hey we're in neon lights and announce hey we're going to be expelling you the first going to be expelling you the first going to be expelling you the first chance we get can that's not realistic chance we get can that's not realistic chance we get can that's not realistic okay let me respond look you said you've okay let me respond look you said you've okay let me respond look you said you've said it a number of times that um um the said it a number of times that um um the said it a number of times that um um the Arabs from fairly early on in the be in Arabs from fairly early on in the be in Arabs from fairly early on in the be in the conflict from the 1890s or the early the conflict from the 1890s or the early the conflict from the 1890s or the early 1900s said the Jews intend to expel us 1900s said the Jews intend to expel us 1900s said the Jews intend to expel us this doesn't mean that it's true it this doesn't mean that it's true it this doesn't mean that it's true it means that some Arabs said this maybe means that some Arabs said this maybe means that some Arabs said this maybe believing it was true maybe using it as believing it was true maybe using it as believing it was true maybe using it as a political instrument to gain support a political instrument to gain support a political instrument to gain support to mobilize Arabs against the Zionist to mobilize Arabs against the Zionist to mobilize Arabs against the Zionist experiment but the fact is transfer did experiment but the fact is transfer did experiment but the fact is transfer did not occur before not occur before not occur before 1947 um and Arabs later said and then 1947 um and Arabs later said and then 1947 um and Arabs later said and then and since then have said that the Jews and since then have said that the Jews and since then have said that the Jews want to build a third temple on the want to build a third temple on the want to build a third temple on the Temple mount um as if that's what really Temple mount um as if that's what really Temple mount um as if that's what really the the mainstream of Zionism has always the the mainstream of Zionism has always the the mainstream of Zionism has always wanted and always strived for but this wanted and always strived for but this wanted and always strived for but this is nonsense it's something that kusini is nonsense it's something that kusini is nonsense it's something that kusini used to use as a way to mobilize used to use as a way to mobilize used to use as a way to mobilize masses for the cause using religion as masses for the cause using religion as masses for the cause using religion as as the way to get them to to join join as the way to get them to to join join as the way to get them to to join join him um the fact that Arabs said that him um the fact that Arabs said that him um the fact that Arabs said that they the Zionist want to dispossess us they the Zionist want to dispossess us they the Zionist want to dispossess us doesn't mean it's true it just means doesn't mean it's true it just means doesn't mean it's true it just means that there some Arabs thought that maybe that there some Arabs thought that maybe that there some Arabs thought that maybe and maybe said it since and maybe and maybe said it since and maybe and maybe said it since and maybe insincerely Professor Morris later it insincerely Professor Morris later it insincerely Professor Morris later it became a self-fulfilling prophecy this became a self-fulfilling prophecy this became a self-fulfilling prophecy this is true Arabs attacked the Jews

is true Arabs attacked the Jews is true Arabs attacked the Jews Professor Maris I read through your Professor Maris I read through your Professor Maris I read through your stuff even yesterday I was looking stuff even yesterday I was looking stuff even yesterday I was looking through righteous victim you should read through righteous victim you should read through righteous victim you should read other things you're wasting your time no other things you're wasting your time no other things you're wasting your time no no actually no I do read other things no actually no I do read other things no actually no I do read other things but I don't consider it a waste of time but I don't consider it a waste of time but I don't consider it a waste of time to read you not at to read you not at to read you not at all um you say that this wasn't inherent in Zionism now that this wasn't inherent in Zionism now would you all agree that Ben David would you all agree that Ben David would you all agree that Ben David benorian was a benorian was a benorian was a Zionist a z major Zionist right would Zionist a z major Zionist right would Zionist a z major Zionist right would you agree Ken vitman was a Zionist yeah you agree Ken vitman was a Zionist yeah you agree Ken vitman was a Zionist yeah okay I believe they were I believe they okay I believe they were I believe they okay I believe they were I believe they took their ideology seriously it was the took their ideology seriously it was the took their ideology seriously it was the first first first generation just like with the Bolsheviks generation just like with the Bolsheviks generation just like with the Bolsheviks the first generation was committed to an the first generation was committed to an the first generation was committed to an idea by the 1930s it was just pure raop idea by the 1930s it was just pure raop idea by the 1930s it was just pure raop politic the IDE went out the window the politic the IDE went out the window the politic the IDE went out the window the first generation I have no doubt about first generation I have no doubt about first generation I have no doubt about their convictions okay they were their convictions okay they were their convictions okay they were zionists transfer was inevitable and zionists transfer was inevitable and zionists transfer was inevitable and inbu in Zionism you keep repeating the inbu in Zionism you keep repeating the inbu in Zionism you keep repeating the same because I have as I said Benny Mr same because I have as I said Benny Mr same because I have as I said Benny Mr moris I have a problem reconciling what moris I have a problem reconciling what moris I have a problem reconciling what you're saying it either was you're saying it either was you're saying it either was incidental or it was deeply incidental or it was deeply incidental or it was deeply entrenched here I read it's deeply entrenched here I read it's deeply entrenched here I read it's deeply entrenched two very resonant words entrenched two very resonant words entrenched two very resonant words inevitable and inbuilt deeply entrenched

inevitable and inbuilt deeply entrenched inevitable and inbuilt deeply entrenched I never wrote I'm not sure it's I never wrote I'm not sure it's I never wrote I'm not sure it's something you just invented but but in something you just invented but but in something you just invented but but in inable and the idea let me concede let inable and the idea let me concede let inable and the idea let me concede let me concede something the idea of me concede something the idea of me concede something the idea of transfer was there Israel zangvil a transfer was there Israel zangvil a transfer was there Israel zangvil a British Zionist talked about it early on British Zionist talked about it early on British Zionist talked about it early on in the century even Herzel in some way in the century even Herzel in some way in the century even Herzel in some way talked about transferring talked about transferring talked about transferring according to your 25 Pages everybody according to your 25 Pages everybody according to your 25 Pages everybody talked about on we keep bringing up this talked about on we keep bringing up this talked about on we keep bringing up this line from the 25 pages and the four line from the 25 pages and the four line from the 25 pages and the four pages uh you know we're lucky to have pages uh you know we're lucky to have pages uh you know we're lucky to have Benny in front of us right now we don't Benny in front of us right now we don't Benny in front of us right now we don't need to go to the quotes at like we can need to go to the quotes at like we can need to go to the quotes at like we can legitimately ask how Central is legitimately ask how Central is legitimately ask how Central is expulsion to expulsion to expulsion to Zionism uh in its early version of Zionism uh in its early version of Zionism uh in its early version of Zionism and what whatever Zionism is Zionism and what whatever Zionism is Zionism and what whatever Zionism is today and how much power uh influence today and how much power uh influence today and how much power uh influence the Zionism and ideology have in Israel the Zionism and ideology have in Israel the Zionism and ideology have in Israel and like influence the Phil the and like influence the Phil the and like influence the Phil the philosophy the ideology of Zionism have philosophy the ideology of Zionism have philosophy the ideology of Zionism have on Israel today the Zionist movement up on Israel today the Zionist movement up on Israel today the Zionist movement up to to to 1948 Zionist ideology was Central to the 1948 Zionist ideology was Central to the 1948 Zionist ideology was Central to the the whole Zionist experience the whole the whole Zionist experience the whole the whole Zionist experience the whole Enterprise up to 1948 and I think Enterprise up to 1948 and I think Enterprise up to 1948 and I think Zionist ideology was also important um Zionist ideology was also important um Zionist ideology was also important um in the first Decades of Israel's in the first Decades of Israel's in the first Decades of Israel's existence um slowly the the the um hold existence um slowly the the the um hold existence um slowly the the the um hold of Zionism like if you like like like of Zionism like if you like like like of Zionism like if you like like like bolshevism held the Soviet Union bolshevism held the Soviet Union bolshevism held the Soviet Union gradually faded and a lot of Israelis

gradually faded and a lot of Israelis gradually faded and a lot of Israelis today think in terms of individual today think in terms of individual today think in terms of individual success and then the capitalism and all success and then the capitalism and all success and then the capitalism and all all sorts of things which nothing to do all sorts of things which nothing to do all sorts of things which nothing to do with Zionism but Zionism was very with Zionism but Zionism was very with Zionism but Zionism was very important but what I'm saying is that important but what I'm saying is that important but what I'm saying is that the idea of transfer wasn't the core of the idea of transfer wasn't the core of the idea of transfer wasn't the core of Zionism the idea of Zionism was to save Zionism the idea of Zionism was to save Zionism the idea of Zionism was to save the Jews who had been vastly persecuted the Jews who had been vastly persecuted the Jews who had been vastly persecuted a in in Eastern Europe and incidentally a in in Eastern Europe and incidentally a in in Eastern Europe and incidentally in the Arab world the Muslim world for in the Arab world the Muslim world for in the Arab world the Muslim world for centuries um and eventually ending up centuries um and eventually ending up centuries um and eventually ending up with the Holocaust the idea of Zionism with the Holocaust the idea of Zionism with the Holocaust the idea of Zionism was to save the Jewish people by was to save the Jewish people by was to save the Jewish people by establishing a state or reestablishing a establishing a state or reestablishing a establishing a state or reestablishing a Jewish State on the ancient Jewish Jewish State on the ancient Jewish Jewish State on the ancient Jewish homeland which is something the Arabs homeland which is something the Arabs homeland which is something the Arabs today even deny that there were Jews in today even deny that there were Jews in today even deny that there were Jews in Palestine or the land of Israel a 2,000 Palestine or the land of Israel a 2,000 Palestine or the land of Israel a 2,000 years ago Arafat famously said what years ago Arafat famously said what years ago Arafat famously said what Temple was there on Temple Mount maybe Temple was there on Temple Mount maybe Temple was there on Temple Mount maybe it was in Nablus which of course is it was in Nablus which of course is it was in Nablus which of course is nonsense but but um they had a nonsense but but um they had a nonsense but but um they had a connection strong connection for connection strong connection for connection strong connection for thousands of years to the land to which thousands of years to the land to which thousands of years to the land to which they wanted to return and returned there they wanted to return and returned there they wanted to return and returned there they found that on the land lived they found that on the land lived they found that on the land lived hundreds of thousands of Arabs and the hundreds of thousands of Arabs and the hundreds of thousands of Arabs and the question was how to accommodate the question was how to accommodate the question was how to accommodate the vision of a Jewish state in Palestine vision of a Jewish state in Palestine vision of a Jewish state in Palestine alongside the existence of these um um alongside the existence of these um um alongside the existence of these um um Arab masses living on who were Arab masses living on who were Arab masses living on who were indigenous in fact to The Land by that indigenous in fact to The Land by that indigenous in fact to The Land by that stage um and the idea of partition stage um and the idea of partition stage um and the idea of partition because they couldn't live together because they couldn't live together because they couldn't live together because the Arabs didn't want to live because the Arabs didn't want to live because the Arabs didn't want to live together with the Jews and I think the together with the Jews and I think the together with the Jews and I think the Jews also didn't want to live together Jews also didn't want to live together Jews also didn't want to live together in one state with Arabs in general the in one state with Arabs in general the in one state with Arabs in general the idea of partition was the thing which um

idea of partition was the thing which um idea of partition was the thing which um the zionists accepted okay we can we can the zionists accepted okay we can we can the zionists accepted okay we can we can only get a small part of Palestine the only get a small part of Palestine the only get a small part of Palestine the Arabs will get in 37 most of Palestine Arabs will get in 37 most of Palestine Arabs will get in 37 most of Palestine in 1947 the the ratios were changed but in 1947 the the ratios were changed but in 1947 the the ratios were changed but we can we can live side by side with we can we can live side by side with we can we can live side by side with each other in a partitioned Palestine each other in a partitioned Palestine each other in a partitioned Palestine and this was the essence of it and this was the essence of it and this was the essence of it the idea of the idea of the idea of transfer was there but it was never transfer was there but it was never transfer was there but it was never adopted by as policy but in adopted by as policy but in adopted by as policy but in 1947-48 the Arabs attacked trying to 1947-48 the Arabs attacked trying to 1947-48 the Arabs attacked trying to destroy essentially the Jewish the destroy essentially the Jewish the destroy essentially the Jewish the Zionist Enterprise and the emerging Zionist Enterprise and the emerging Zionist Enterprise and the emerging Jewish State and a um the reaction was a Jewish State and a um the reaction was a Jewish State and a um the reaction was a transfer in some way a not as policy but transfer in some way a not as policy but transfer in some way a not as policy but this is what happened on the battlefield this is what happened on the battlefield this is what happened on the battlefield and this is also what Boran at some and this is also what Boran at some and this is also what Boran at some point began to want as well right well point began to want as well right well point began to want as well right well you know one of the first um books on you know one of the first um books on you know one of the first um books on this issue uh I read uh when I was still this issue uh I read uh when I was still this issue uh I read uh when I was still in high school because my my late father in high school because my my late father in high school because my my late father had it was a Diaries of Theodore had it was a Diaries of Theodore had it was a Diaries of Theodore Herzel and I think you know Theodore Herzel and I think you know Theodore Herzel and I think you know Theodore Herzel of course was was the founder of Herzel of course was was the founder of Herzel of course was was the founder of of the Contemporary Zionist movement and of the Contemporary Zionist movement and of the Contemporary Zionist movement and I think if you read that it's very clear I think if you read that it's very clear I think if you read that it's very clear for Herzel the model upon which the for Herzel the model upon which the for Herzel the model upon which the Zionist movement would uh would proceed Zionist movement would uh would proceed Zionist movement would uh would proceed his model was Cil Ro roads has um I his model was Cil Ro roads has um I his model was Cil Ro roads has um I think you know roads from what I recall think you know roads from what I recall think you know roads from what I recall correct me if I'm wrong has quite a correct me if I'm wrong has quite a correct me if I'm wrong has quite a prominent place in uh herzl's Diaries I prominent place in uh herzl's Diaries I prominent place in uh herzl's Diaries I think Herzel was also corresponding uh

think Herzel was also corresponding uh think Herzel was also corresponding uh with him and seeking his support cesil with him and seeking his support cesil with him and seeking his support cesil rhods of course was um uh was the uh rhods of course was um uh was the uh rhods of course was um uh was the uh British um colonialist after whom the British um colonialist after whom the British um colonialist after whom the former white minori regime in uh in former white minori regime in uh in former white minori regime in uh in rudia uh was named and Herzel also says rudia uh was named and Herzel also says rudia uh was named and Herzel also says explicitly in his diaries that it is explicitly in his diaries that it is explicitly in his diaries that it is essential um to remove uh the existing essential um to remove uh the existing essential um to remove uh the existing population from Palestine can I respond population from Palestine can I respond population from Palestine can I respond to this in a moment please he says we to this in a moment please he says we to this in a moment please he says we shall have to spear the penniless shall have to spear the penniless shall have to spear the penniless population across the borders and population across the borders and population across the borders and procure employment for them elsewhere or procure employment for them elsewhere or procure employment for them elsewhere or something and Israel zil who you something and Israel zil who you something and Israel zil who you mentioned a land without a people for a mentioned a land without a people for a mentioned a land without a people for a people without a land they knew damn people without a land they knew damn people without a land they knew damn well it wasn't a people a land without a well it wasn't a people a land without a well it wasn't a people a land without a people um I'll continue but but please people um I'll continue but but please people um I'll continue but but please go just to this there is one small diary go just to this there is one small diary go just to this there is one small diary entry in herz's vast volumes yeah five entry in herz's vast volumes yeah five entry in herz's vast volumes yeah five volumes there's one paragraph which volumes there's one paragraph which volumes there's one paragraph which actually mentions the idea of transfer actually mentions the idea of transfer actually mentions the idea of transfer there are people who I think that Herzel there are people who I think that Herzel there are people who I think that Herzel was actually pointing to South America was actually pointing to South America was actually pointing to South America when he was talking about that the Jews when he was talking about that the Jews when he was talking about that the Jews were going to move to Argentina and then were going to move to Argentina and then were going to move to Argentina and then they would try and a buy out or buy off they would try and a buy out or buy off they would try and a buy out or buy off or Spirit the the penniless natives um or Spirit the the penniless natives um or Spirit the the penniless natives um to make way for Jewish settlement maybe to make way for Jewish settlement maybe to make way for Jewish settlement maybe he wasn't even talking about the Arabs he wasn't even talking about the Arabs he wasn't even talking about the Arabs in that particular passage that's the in that particular passage that's the in that particular passage that's the argument of some people maybe he was but argument of some people maybe he was but argument of some people maybe he was but the point is it it has only a one 100th the point is it it has only a one 100th the point is it it has only a one 100th of a 1% of the Diary which is devoted to

of a 1% of the Diary which is devoted to of a 1% of the Diary which is devoted to the subject it's not a central idea in the subject it's not a central idea in the subject it's not a central idea in Herzel in herz's thinking the what Herzel in herz's thinking the what Herzel in herz's thinking the what Herzel wanted and this is what's Herzel wanted and this is what's Herzel wanted and this is what's important not RADS I don't think he was important not RADS I don't think he was important not RADS I don't think he was the model Herzel wanted to create a the model Herzel wanted to create a the model Herzel wanted to create a liberal Democratic Western State liberal Democratic Western State liberal Democratic Western State in Palestine for the Jews that's that in Palestine for the Jews that's that in Palestine for the Jews that's that was the idea not some Imperial was the idea not some Imperial was the idea not some Imperial Enterprise serving some Imperial Master Enterprise serving some Imperial Master Enterprise serving some Imperial Master which is what rhs was about but to have which is what rhs was about but to have which is what rhs was about but to have a Jewish state which was modeled on the a Jewish state which was modeled on the a Jewish state which was modeled on the western democracies in in Palestine and western democracies in in Palestine and western democracies in in Palestine and this incidentally was more or less what this incidentally was more or less what this incidentally was more or less what whitesman and Boran Boran wanted they whitesman and Boran Boran wanted they whitesman and Boran Boran wanted they Boran was more of a socialist whitesman Boran was more of a socialist whitesman Boran was more of a socialist whitesman was more of a liberal a um Westerner but was more of a liberal a um Westerner but was more of a liberal a um Westerner but they wanted to establish a Social they wanted to establish a Social they wanted to establish a Social Democratic or liberal state in Palestine Democratic or liberal state in Palestine Democratic or liberal state in Palestine and they both envisioned through most of and they both envisioned through most of and they both envisioned through most of the years of their activity that there the years of their activity that there the years of their activity that there would be an Arab minority in that Jewish would be an Arab minority in that Jewish would be an Arab minority in that Jewish State it's true that benguan strive to State it's true that benguan strive to State it's true that benguan strive to have as small as possible an Arab have as small as possible an Arab have as small as possible an Arab minority in the Jewish State because he minority in the Jewish State because he minority in the Jewish State because he knew that if you want a Jewish majority knew that if you want a Jewish majority knew that if you want a Jewish majority state that that would be necessary but state that that would be necessary but state that that would be necessary but it's not something which they were it's not something which they were it's not something which they were willing to translate into actual policy willing to translate into actual policy willing to translate into actual policy uh just a quick pause to mention that uh just a quick pause to mention that uh just a quick pause to mention that for people who are not familiar The for people who are not familiar The for people who are not familiar The Herzel we're talking about a century ago Herzel we're talking about a century ago Herzel we're talking about a century ago and everything we've been talking about and everything we've been talking about and everything we've been talking about has been mostly 1948 and before yes just has been mostly 1948 and before yes just has been mostly 1948 and before yes just one clarification on herzl's Diaries I one clarification on herzl's Diaries I one clarification on herzl's Diaries I mean the other thing that I recall from mean the other thing that I recall from mean the other thing that I recall from those Diaries is he was um he was very those Diaries is he was um he was very those Diaries is he was um he was very preoccupied with in fact getting great

preoccupied with in fact getting great preoccupied with in fact getting great power patronage seeing Palestine um the power patronage seeing Palestine um the power patronage seeing Palestine um the Jewish state in Palestine I think his Jewish state in Palestine I think his Jewish state in Palestine I think his words an outpost of civilization against words an outpost of civilization against words an outpost of civilization against barbarism yes in other words very much barbarism yes in other words very much barbarism yes in other words very much um seeing his project as a prox as a um seeing his project as a prox as a um seeing his project as a prox as a proxy for Western imperialism in the proxy for Western imperialism in the proxy for Western imperialism in the Middle East right word not proxy he Middle East right word not proxy he Middle East right word not proxy he wanted to establish a Jewish state which wanted to establish a Jewish state which wanted to establish a Jewish state which would be independent to get that he would be independent to get that he would be independent to get that he hoped that he would be able to Garner hoped that he would be able to Garner hoped that he would be able to Garner support from major Imperial Powers support from major Imperial Powers support from major Imperial Powers including including the ottoman Sultan including including the ottoman Sultan including including the ottoman Sultan he tried to cultivate I just want to he tried to cultivate I just want to he tried to cultivate I just want to respond to a point you made earlier respond to a point you made earlier respond to a point you made earlier which was that people expressed their which was that people expressed their which was that people expressed their rejection of the partition rejection of the partition rejection of the partition resolution um on the grounds that it resolution um on the grounds that it resolution um on the grounds that it gave the majority of the of Palestine to gave the majority of the of Palestine to gave the majority of the of Palestine to the Jewish Community which formed only a the Jewish Community which formed only a the Jewish Community which formed only a third um whereas in fact uh if I third um whereas in fact uh if I third um whereas in fact uh if I understood you correctly you're saying understood you correctly you're saying understood you correctly you're saying the Palestinians and the Arabs would the Palestinians and the Arabs would the Palestinians and the Arabs would have rejected any partition resolution have rejected any partition resolution have rejected any partition resolution yeah I think a couple things that one yeah I think a couple things that one yeah I think a couple things that one they would have rejected any two a lot they would have rejected any two a lot they would have rejected any two a lot of that land given was in the nigab it of that land given was in the nigab it of that land given was in the nigab it was pretty terrible land at the time and was pretty terrible land at the time and was pretty terrible land at the time and three the land that would have been three the land that would have been three the land that would have been partitioned to Jews I think would have partitioned to Jews I think would have partitioned to Jews I think would have been um I think I saw it was like been um I think I saw it was like been um I think I saw it was like 500,000 ER would have been 500,000 Jews 500,000 ER would have been 500,000 Jews 500,000 ER would have been 500,000 Jews 400,000 Arabs and I think like 80,000 400,000 Arabs and I think like 80,000 400,000 Arabs and I think like 80,000 bedwin would have been there so the the bedwin would have been there so the the bedwin would have been there so the the state would have been I think you raised state would have been I think you raised state would have been I think you raised a valid point um because I think the a valid point um because I think the a valid point um because I think the Palestinians did reject the partition of Palestinians did reject the partition of Palestinians did reject the partition of their Homeland in principle and I think their Homeland in principle and I think their Homeland in principle and I think the fact that um the United Nations

the fact that um the United Nations the fact that um the United Nations General Assembly then awarded the General Assembly then awarded the General Assembly then awarded the majority of their Homeland um uh to the majority of their Homeland um uh to the majority of their Homeland um uh to the Zionist movement only added insult to Zionist movement only added insult to Zionist movement only added insult to injury I mean uh um uh one doesn't have injury I mean uh um uh one doesn't have injury I mean uh um uh one doesn't have to sympathize with the to sympathize with the to sympathize with the Palestinians um to recognize that they Palestinians um to recognize that they Palestinians um to recognize that they have now been a stateless people for 75 have now been a stateless people for 75 have now been a stateless people for 75 years can you name any country yours for years can you name any country yours for years can you name any country yours for example or yours that would be prepared example or yours that would be prepared example or yours that would be prepared to give 55% to give 55% to give 55% 25% 10% of your country to the 25% 10% of your country to the 25% 10% of your country to the Palestinians of course not and so um the Palestinians of course not and so um the Palestinians of course not and so um the issue was not the existence of Jews in issue was not the existence of Jews in issue was not the existence of Jews in Palestine um they had been there for Palestine um they had been there for Palestine um they had been there for centuries and of course they had ties to centuries and of course they had ties to centuries and of course they had ties to Palestine and particularly to Jerusalem Palestine and particularly to Jerusalem Palestine and particularly to Jerusalem and and other places going back and and other places going back and and other places going back centuries if not Millennia um but the centuries if not Millennia um but the centuries if not Millennia um but the idea of establishing an idea of establishing an idea of establishing an exclusively Jewish State at the expense exclusively Jewish State at the expense exclusively Jewish State at the expense of those who are already living there I of those who are already living there I of those who are already living there I think it was right to reject that and I think it was right to reject that and I think it was right to reject that and I don't think we can look back now 75 don't think we can look back now 75 don't think we can look back now 75 years later and say well you should have years later and say well you should have years later and say well you should have accepted losing 55% of your Homeland accepted losing 55% of your Homeland accepted losing 55% of your Homeland because you ended up losing 78% of it because you ended up losing 78% of it because you ended up losing 78% of it the addition and the remaining 22% was the addition and the remaining 22% was the addition and the remaining 22% was occupied in occupied in occupied in 1967 that's that's not how things work 1967 that's that's not how things work 1967 that's that's not how things work yeah um and I can I can imagine I can yeah um and I can I can imagine I can yeah um and I can I can imagine I can imagine an American rejecting giving 10%

imagine an American rejecting giving 10% imagine an American rejecting giving 10% of the United States to the Palestinians of the United States to the Palestinians of the United States to the Palestinians and if that rejection leads to war and and if that rejection leads to war and and if that rejection leads to war and you lose half your country you lose half your country you lose half your country I doubt that 50 years from now you're I doubt that 50 years from now you're I doubt that 50 years from now you're going to say well maybe I should have going to say well maybe I should have going to say well maybe I should have accepted that sure so I like this answer accepted that sure so I like this answer accepted that sure so I like this answer more than what I usually feel like I'm more than what I usually feel like I'm more than what I usually feel like I'm hearing when it comes to the Palestinian hearing when it comes to the Palestinian hearing when it comes to the Palestinian rejection of the 47 partition plan rejection of the 47 partition plan rejection of the 47 partition plan because sometimes I feel like a weird because sometimes I feel like a weird because sometimes I feel like a weird switch happens to where the Arabs in the switch happens to where the Arabs in the switch happens to where the Arabs in the area are actually presented as entirely area are actually presented as entirely area are actually presented as entirely pragmatic people who are simply doing a pragmatic people who are simply doing a pragmatic people who are simply doing a calculation and saying like well we're calculation and saying like well we're calculation and saying like well we're losing 55% of our land Jews are only losing 55% of our land Jews are only losing 55% of our land Jews are only maybe onethird of the people here and maybe onethird of the people here and maybe onethird of the people here and we've got 45 and N the math doesn't work we've got 45 and N the math doesn't work we've got 45 and N the math doesn't work basically basically basically but it wasn't a math problem I think but it wasn't a math problem I think but it wasn't a math problem I think like you said it was a matter of like you said it was a matter of like you said it was a matter of principle it was an ideology problem no principle it was an ideology problem no principle it was an ideology problem no it was a matter of principle yeah it was a matter of principle yeah it was a matter of principle yeah ideologically driven that that they as a ideologically driven that that they as a ideologically driven that that they as a as a people have a right to or entitled as a people have a right to or entitled as a people have a right to or entitled to this land that they've never actually to this land that they've never actually to this land that they've never actually had an independent state on that they've had an independent state on that they've had an independent state on that they've never had even a guarantee of an never had even a guarantee of an never had even a guarantee of an independent state on that they've never independent state on that they've never independent state on that they've never actually ruled a govern that last point actually ruled a govern that last point actually ruled a govern that last point is actually not correct because for all is actually not correct because for all is actually not correct because for all its its its Injustice um the mandate system Injustice um the mandate system Injustice um the mandate system recognized Palestine as a class a recognized Palestine as a class a recognized Palestine as a class a mandate which provisionally recognized mandate which provisionally recognized mandate which provisionally recognized the the the independence of of that territory of independence of of that territory of independence of of that territory of what would emerge from that territory what would emerge from that territory what would emerge from that territory but not thees it was provisionally but not thees it was provisionally but not thees it was provisionally recognized but not but the the territory recognized but not but the the territory recognized but not but the the territory itself was but not of the Palestinian itself was but not of the Palestinian itself was but not of the Palestinian people to have a right or a guaranteed people to have a right or a guaranteed people to have a right or a guaranteed to a government that was a British to a government that was a British to a government that was a British Mandate of Palestine not the British Mandate of Palestine not the British Mandate of Palestine not the British Mandate of Israel the word exclusive Mandate of Israel the word exclusive Mandate of Israel the word exclusive which you keep using is nonsense the which you keep using is nonsense the which you keep using is nonsense the state which benan envisioned would be a

state which benan envisioned would be a state which benan envisioned would be a Jewish majority State as they accepted Jewish majority State as they accepted Jewish majority State as they accepted the 1947 partition the 1947 partition the 1947 partition resolution as Steven said that included resolution as Steven said that included resolution as Steven said that included 400,000 plus Arabs in a state which 400,000 plus Arabs in a state which 400,000 plus Arabs in a state which would have 500,000 Jews so the idea of would have 500,000 Jews so the idea of would have 500,000 Jews so the idea of exclusivity wasn't anywhere in the air exclusivity wasn't anywhere in the air exclusivity wasn't anywhere in the air at all among the Zionist leaders in 4748 at all among the Zionist leaders in 4748 at all among the Zionist leaders in 4748 they wanted a Jewish majority state but they wanted a Jewish majority state but they wanted a Jewish majority state but were willing to accept a state which had were willing to accept a state which had were willing to accept a state which had 40% Arabs that's one point the second 40% Arabs that's one point the second 40% Arabs that's one point the second thing is the Palestinians may have thing is the Palestinians may have thing is the Palestinians may have regarded the land of Palestine as their regarded the land of Palestine as their regarded the land of Palestine as their Homeland but so did the Jews it was the Homeland but so did the Jews it was the Homeland but so did the Jews it was the homeland of the Jews as well the problem homeland of the Jews as well the problem homeland of the Jews as well the problem was the Arabs were unable and remain to was the Arabs were unable and remain to was the Arabs were unable and remain to this day unable to recognize that for this day unable to recognize that for this day unable to recognize that for the Jews that is their Homeland as well the Jews that is their Homeland as well the Jews that is their Homeland as well and the problem then is how do you share and the problem then is how do you share and the problem then is how do you share this Homeland either with one bational this Homeland either with one bational this Homeland either with one bational state or separate this partitioned into state or separate this partitioned into state or separate this partitioned into two states the problem is that the Arabs two states the problem is that the Arabs two states the problem is that the Arabs have always rejected both of these ideas have always rejected both of these ideas have always rejected both of these ideas the Homeland belongs to the Jews as Jews the Homeland belongs to the Jews as Jews the Homeland belongs to the Jews as Jews feel as much as it does not more than feel as much as it does not more than feel as much as it does not more than for the Arabs I would say for the Jews for the Arabs I would say for the Jews for the Arabs I would say for the Jews it's the Jewish I would also real quick it's the Jewish I would also real quick it's the Jewish I would also real quick I just want for both of you guys because I just want for both of you guys because I just want for both of you guys because I haven't heard these questions answered I haven't heard these questions answered I haven't heard these questions answered I really want these questions to be I'm I really want these questions to be I'm I really want these questions to be I'm just so curious how to make sense of just so curious how to make sense of just so curious how to make sense of them um it was correctly brought up that them um it was correctly brought up that them um it was correctly brought up that I believe that benan had um I think I believe that benan had um I think I believe that benan had um I think Schmo benam describes it as an obsession Schmo benam describes it as an obsession Schmo benam describes it as an obsession with getting validation or support from with getting validation or support from with getting validation or support from Western States um Great Britain and then Western States um Great Britain and then Western States um Great Britain and then a couple decades later explains the su's a couple decades later explains the su's a couple decades later explains the su's war the's crisis exactly correct that war the's crisis exactly correct that war the's crisis exactly correct that was one of the major motivators the idea was one of the major motivators the idea was one of the major motivators the idea to work with Britain and France on a

to work with Britain and France on a to work with Britain and France on a military military military operation but then the question again I operation but then the question again I operation but then the question again I go back to if that is true if beneran if go back to if that is true if beneran if go back to if that is true if beneran if the early uh Israel saw themselves as a the early uh Israel saw themselves as a the early uh Israel saw themselves as a western Fashion Nation how could we western Fashion Nation how could we western Fashion Nation how could we possibly imagine that they would have possibly imagine that they would have possibly imagine that they would have engaged in the transfer of some 400,000 engaged in the transfer of some 400,000 engaged in the transfer of some 400,000 Arabs after accepting the partition plan Arabs after accepting the partition plan Arabs after accepting the partition plan would that not have completely and would that not have completely and would that not have completely and totally destroyed their legitimacy in totally destroyed their legitimacy in totally destroyed their legitimacy in the eyes of the entire Western world the eyes of the entire Western world the eyes of the entire Western world would not have been how not well first would not have been how not well first would not have been how not well first of all I think that that the Zionist of all I think that that the Zionist of all I think that that the Zionist leadership's leadership's leadership's acceptance of um the partition acceptance of um the partition acceptance of um the partition resolution um and and I think you may resolution um and and I think you may resolution um and and I think you may written about this that they accepted it written about this that they accepted it written about this that they accepted it because it provided International because it provided International because it provided International endorsement of the the legitimacy of the endorsement of the the legitimacy of the endorsement of the the legitimacy of the principle of Jewish statehood and they principle of Jewish statehood and they principle of Jewish statehood and they didn't accept the borders um and in fact didn't accept the borders um and in fact didn't accept the borders um and in fact uh later expanded the borders second of uh later expanded the borders second of uh later expanded the borders second of all the borders the borders they all the borders the borders they all the borders the borders they accepted the UN partition resolution accepted the UN partition resolution accepted the UN partition resolution borders and all they you can say that borders and all they you can say that borders and all they you can say that some of the zionists deep in their some of the zionists deep in their some of the zionists deep in their hearts had the the idea that maybe incl hearts had the the idea that maybe incl hearts had the the idea that maybe incl to including their most senior leaders to including their most senior leaders to including their most senior leaders who said so and I think you've quoted who said so and I think you've quoted who said so and I think you've quoted them they grudgingly accepted what the them they grudgingly accepted what the them they grudgingly accepted what the United Nation the world Community had United Nation the world Community had United Nation the world Community had said this is what you're going to get said this is what you're going to get said this is what you're going to get and and second of all I mean removing and and second of all I mean removing and and second of all I mean removing dark people darker people it's dark it's dark people darker people it's dark it's dark people darker people it's dark it's inic are as dark as Arabs it's intrinsic inic are as dark as Arabs it's intrinsic inic are as dark as Arabs it's intrinsic to Western history so the idea that to Western history so the idea that to Western history so the idea that Americans or Brits or the French would

Americans or Brits or the French would Americans or Brits or the French would have an issue with I mean French had have an issue with I mean French had have an issue with I mean French had been doing it in Algeria for decades the been doing it in Algeria for decades the been doing it in Algeria for decades the Americans have been doing it in North Americans have been doing it in North Americans have been doing it in North America for centuries so how would America for centuries so how would America for centuries so how would Israel forcibly displacing um Israel forcibly displacing um Israel forcibly displacing um Palestinians somehow besmer um uh Israel Palestinians somehow besmer um uh Israel Palestinians somehow besmer um uh Israel in the eyes of the West even in the in the eyes of the West even in the in the eyes of the West even in the 1944 resolution of the labor party and 1944 resolution of the labor party and 1944 resolution of the labor party and at the time even Bertrand Russell was a at the time even Bertrand Russell was a at the time even Bertrand Russell was a member of the labor party it endorsed member of the labor party it endorsed member of the labor party it endorsed transfer of Arabs out of Palestine as m transfer of Arabs out of Palestine as m transfer of Arabs out of Palestine as m pointed out that was a deeply entrenched pointed out that was a deeply entrenched pointed out that was a deeply entrenched idea in Western thinking that there was idea in Western thinking that there was idea in Western thinking that there was nothing uh it doesn't in any way nothing uh it doesn't in any way nothing uh it doesn't in any way contradict or violate or breach any contradict or violate or breach any contradict or violate or breach any moral values to displace uh the moral values to displace uh the moral values to displace uh the Palestinian population now I do believe Palestinian population now I do believe Palestinian population now I do believe there's a legitimate there's a legitimate there's a legitimate question had it been the case as you question had it been the case as you question had it been the case as you said Professor Mars that the zionists said Professor Mars that the zionists said Professor Mars that the zionists wanted to create a happy state with a wanted to create a happy state with a wanted to create a happy state with a Jewish majority but a large Jewish Jewish majority but a large Jewish Jewish majority but a large Jewish minority and if by virtue of immigration minority and if by virtue of immigration minority and if by virtue of immigration like in our own country in our own like in our own country in our own like in our own country in our own country given the current trajectories country given the current trajectories country given the current trajectories nonwhites will become the majority nonwhites will become the majority nonwhites will become the majority population in our United States quite population in our United States quite population in our United States quite soon and according to democratic soon and according to democratic soon and according to democratic principles we have to accept that so if principles we have to accept that so if principles we have to accept that so if that were the that were the that were the case I would say maybe there's an case I would say maybe there's an case I would say maybe there's an argument that had there been Mass Jew

argument that had there been Mass Jew argument that had there been Mass Jew Jewish immigration changed the Jewish immigration changed the Jewish immigration changed the demographic balance in Palestine and demographic balance in Palestine and demographic balance in Palestine and therefore uh Jews became the majority therefore uh Jews became the majority therefore uh Jews became the majority you can make an argument in the abstract you can make an argument in the abstract you can make an argument in the abstract that the indigenous Arab population that the indigenous Arab population that the indigenous Arab population should have been accepting of that just should have been accepting of that just should have been accepting of that just as whites in the United States quote as whites in the United States quote as whites in the United States quote unquote whites have to be accepting of unquote whites have to be accepting of unquote whites have to be accepting of the fact that the demographic majority the fact that the demographic majority the fact that the demographic majority is Shifting to non-whites in our own is Shifting to non-whites in our own is Shifting to non-whites in our own country but that's not what Zionism was country but that's not what Zionism was country but that's not what Zionism was about I did write my doctrinal about I did write my doctrinal about I did write my doctrinal dissertation on Zionism and I don't want dissertation on Zionism and I don't want dissertation on Zionism and I don't want to get now bogged down in abstract ideas to get now bogged down in abstract ideas to get now bogged down in abstract ideas but as I suspect you know most theorists but as I suspect you know most theorists but as I suspect you know most theorists of nationalism say there are two kinds of nationalism say there are two kinds of nationalism say there are two kinds of nationalism one is a nationalism of nationalism one is a nationalism of nationalism one is a nationalism based on citizenship you become a based on citizenship you become a based on citizenship you become a citizen you're integral to the country citizen you're integral to the country citizen you're integral to the country that's sometimes called political that's sometimes called political that's sometimes called political nationalism and then there's another nationalism and then there's another nationalism and then there's another kind of nationalism and that says the kind of nationalism and that says the kind of nationalism and that says the state should not belong to its state should not belong to its state should not belong to its citizens it should belong to an ethnic citizens it should belong to an ethnic citizens it should belong to an ethnic group each ethnic group should have its group each ethnic group should have its group each ethnic group should have its own State it's usually called the German own State it's usually called the German own State it's usually called the German romantic idea of romantic idea of romantic idea of nationalism nationalism nationalism Zionism is Zionism is Zionism is squarely in the Jew German romantic idea squarely in the Jew German romantic idea squarely in the Jew German romantic idea that was the whole point of Zionism we that was the whole point of Zionism we that was the whole point of Zionism we don't want to be bundists and be one

don't want to be bundists and be one don't want to be bundists and be one more ethnic minority in more ethnic minority in more ethnic minority in Russia we don't want to become citizens Russia we don't want to become citizens Russia we don't want to become citizens and just become a Jewish people in and just become a Jewish people in and just become a Jewish people in England or friends we want our own State England or friends we want our own State England or friends we want our own State like like the arab3 states no wait let's like like the arab3 states no wait let's like like the arab3 states no wait let's before we get to the Arabs let's get before we get to the Arabs let's get before we get to the Arabs let's get let's stick to the Jews for a moment or let's stick to the Jews for a moment or let's stick to the Jews for a moment or the zionists we want our own State and the zionists we want our own State and the zionists we want our own State and in that in that in that concept of wanting your own State the concept of wanting your own State the concept of wanting your own State the minority at best lives on minority at best lives on minority at best lives on sufferance and at worst gets expelled sufferance and at worst gets expelled sufferance and at worst gets expelled that's the logic of the German romantic that's the logic of the German romantic that's the logic of the German romantic Zionist idea of a state that's why Zionist idea of a state that's why Zionist idea of a state that's why they're they're they're zionists zionists zionists now I personally have shied away from now I personally have shied away from now I personally have shied away from using the word Zionism ever since I using the word Zionism ever since I using the word Zionism ever since I finished my doctoral dissertation finished my doctoral dissertation finished my doctoral dissertation because because because painful because as I said I don't painful because as I said I don't painful because as I said I don't believe it's the operative ideology believe it's the operative ideology believe it's the operative ideology today it's like talking about bism and today it's like talking about bism and today it's like talking about bism and referring to Kush I doubt Kush could referring to Kush I doubt Kush could referring to Kush I doubt Kush could have spelled have spelled have spelled bik but for the period we're talking bik but for the period we're talking bik but for the period we're talking about they were

about they were about they were zionists they were committed to their zionists they were committed to their zionists they were committed to their exclusive state with with a minority exclusive state with with a minority exclusive state with with a minority living on sufferance or at worst living on sufferance or at worst living on sufferance or at worst expelled that was their ideology and I expelled that was their ideology and I expelled that was their ideology and I really feel there's a problem with your really feel there's a problem with your really feel there's a problem with your happy vision of these Western Democrats happy vision of these Western Democrats happy vision of these Western Democrats like vitman and they wanted to live like vitman and they wanted to live like vitman and they wanted to live peacefully with the Arabs vitman peacefully with the Arabs vitman peacefully with the Arabs vitman described the exposion in 1948 as quote described the exposion in 1948 as quote described the exposion in 1948 as quote the miraculous clearing of the land that the miraculous clearing of the land that the miraculous clearing of the land that doesn't sound like somebody shedding Too doesn't sound like somebody shedding Too doesn't sound like somebody shedding Too Many Tears at the loss of the indigenous Many Tears at the loss of the indigenous Many Tears at the loss of the indigenous population let me just respond to the population let me just respond to the population let me just respond to the word unsuffer the unsuffer I don't agree word unsuffer the unsuffer I don't agree word unsuffer the unsuffer I don't agree with I think that's wrong the Jewish with I think that's wrong the Jewish with I think that's wrong the Jewish State came into being in 1948 it had a State came into being in 1948 it had a State came into being in 1948 it had a population which was 20% Arab when it population which was 20% Arab when it population which was 20% Arab when it came into being after Arab refugees many came into being after Arab refugees many came into being after Arab refugees many of them had become refugees but 20% of them had become refugees but 20% of them had become refugees but 20% remained in the country 20% of Israel's remained in the country 20% of Israel's remained in the country 20% of Israel's population at Inception in 1949 was Arab population at Inception in 1949 was Arab population at Inception in 1949 was Arab 80% went missing no no no no I we 80% went missing no no no no I we 80% went missing no no no no I we talking about what remained in Palestine talking about what remained in Palestine talking about what remained in Palestine Israel after it was created um the 20% Israel after it was created um the 20% Israel after it was created um the 20% who lived in Israel received citizenship who lived in Israel received citizenship who lived in Israel received citizenship and all the rights of Israelis except of and all the rights of Israelis except of and all the rights of Israelis except of course the right to serve in the Army course the right to serve in the Army course the right to serve in the Army which they didn't want to um and they which they didn't want to um and they which they didn't want to um and they have Supreme Court justices they have have Supreme Court justices they have have Supreme Court justices they have knesset members they enjoy basically

knesset members they enjoy basically knesset members they enjoy basically under laws until 1966 for period sure under laws until 1966 for period sure under laws until 1966 for period sure they lived under they didn't they lived under they didn't they lived under they didn't immed no no wait a second at the immed no no wait a second at the immed no no wait a second at the beginning at the beginning it's not beginning at the beginning it's not beginning at the beginning it's not fantasy at the beginning they received fantasy at the beginning they received fantasy at the beginning they received citizenship could vote in elections for citizenship could vote in elections for citizenship could vote in elections for their own people and they were put into their own people and they were put into their own people and they were put into Parliament um but in the first years the Parliament um but in the first years the Parliament um but in the first years the Israeli the Jewish majority suspected Israeli the Jewish majority suspected Israeli the Jewish majority suspected that maybe the Arabs would be disloyal that maybe the Arabs would be disloyal that maybe the Arabs would be disloyal because they had just tried to destroy because they had just tried to destroy because they had just tried to destroy the Jewish State then they dropped the the Jewish State then they dropped the the Jewish State then they dropped the military government and they became military government and they became military government and they became fully equal citizens um so if the whole fully equal citizens um so if the whole fully equal citizens um so if the whole idea was they must have a state without idea was they must have a state without idea was they must have a state without Arabs this didn't happen in 49 and it Arabs this didn't happen in 49 and it Arabs this didn't happen in 49 and it didn't happen in didn't happen in didn't happen in the you say Professor Morris then why the you say Professor Morris then why the you say Professor Morris then why did you say without a population did you say without a population did you say without a population exposion a Jewish state would not have exposion a Jewish state would not have exposion a Jewish state would not have been established because the you're been established because the you're been established because the you're missing the first section of that missing the first section of that missing the first section of that paragraph was they were being assaulted paragraph was they were being assaulted paragraph was they were being assaulted by the Arabs and as a result a Jewish by the Arabs and as a result a Jewish by the Arabs and as a result a Jewish State could not have come into being State could not have come into being State could not have come into being unless there had also been an expulsion unless there had also been an expulsion unless there had also been an expulsion of the population which was trying to of the population which was trying to of the population which was trying to kill nor I'm officially forbidding you kill nor I'm officially forbidding you kill nor I'm officially forbidding you referencing that referencing that referencing that again hold on a second wait uh we again hold on a second wait uh we again hold on a second wait uh we responded to it so the the main point responded to it so the the main point responded to it so the the main point you're making we have to take B's word you're making we have to take B's word you're making we have to take B's word is like there was uh a war and that's is like there was uh a war and that's is like there was uh a war and that's the reason why he made that statement I the reason why he made that statement I the reason why he made that statement I think just one last point on this I I think just one last point on this I I think just one last point on this I I remember reading your book when it first remember reading your book when it first remember reading your book when it first came out and and and reading you know

came out and and and reading you know came out and and and reading you know one incident after the other and and one one incident after the other and and one one incident after the other and and one example after the other and then getting example after the other and then getting example after the other and then getting to the conclusion where you said um uh to the conclusion where you said um uh to the conclusion where you said um uh the nakba was a product of War not the nakba was a product of War not the nakba was a product of War not design I think re ex and I remember design I think re ex and I remember design I think re ex and I remember reacting almost in in in in shock to reacting almost in in in in shock to reacting almost in in in in shock to that that I felt you had mobilized that that I felt you had mobilized that that I felt you had mobilized overwhelming evidence that it was a overwhelming evidence that it was a overwhelming evidence that it was a product of design not war and I think product of design not war and I think product of design not war and I think our discussion today very much uh our discussion today very much uh our discussion today very much uh reflects let's say the dissonance uh reflects let's say the dissonance uh reflects let's say the dissonance uh between the evidence and the conclusion between the evidence and the conclusion between the evidence and the conclusion you don't feel that that the um uh the you don't feel that that the um uh the you don't feel that that the um uh the research that you have conducted and research that you have conducted and research that you have conducted and published demonstrates that it was in published demonstrates that it was in published demonstrates that it was in fact um inherent and inbuilt and fact um inherent and inbuilt and fact um inherent and inbuilt and inevitable um and I think the point that inevitable um and I think the point that inevitable um and I think the point that Norman I are making is is that you're Norman I are making is is that you're Norman I are making is is that you're own historical research together with own historical research together with own historical research together with that of others indisputably demonstrates that of others indisputably demonstrates that of others indisputably demonstrates that it does I think that's a that it does I think that's a that it does I think that's a fundamental disagreement we're having fundamental disagreement we're having fundamental disagreement we're having here can I wait yeah can I actually here can I wait yeah can I actually here can I wait yeah can I actually respond to that because this is actually respond to that because this is actually respond to that because this is actually uh I think this is emblematic of the uh I think this is emblematic of the uh I think this is emblematic of the entire conversation um I watched a lot entire conversation um I watched a lot entire conversation um I watched a lot of norms interviews uh and conversations of norms interviews uh and conversations of norms interviews uh and conversations in preparation for this and I hear in preparation for this and I hear in preparation for this and I hear normal say this all over and over and normal say this all over and over and normal say this all over and over and over again I only deal in facts I don't over again I only deal in facts I don't over again I only deal in facts I don't deal in hypotheticals I only deal in deal in hypotheticals I only deal in deal in hypotheticals I only deal in facts I only deal in facts and that facts I only deal in facts and that facts I only deal in facts and that seems to be the case except for when the seems to be the case except for when the seems to be the case except for when the facts are completely and totally facts are completely and totally facts are completely and totally contrary to the particular point Point contrary to the particular point Point contrary to the particular point Point you're trying to push the idea that Jews you're trying to push the idea that Jews you're trying to push the idea that Jews would have out of hand rejected any would have out of hand rejected any would have out of hand rejected any state that had Arabs on it or always had state that had Arabs on it or always had state that had Arabs on it or always had a plan of exposion is just betrayed by

a plan of exposion is just betrayed by a plan of exposion is just betrayed by the acceptance of the 47 partition I the acceptance of the 47 partition I the acceptance of the 47 partition I don't think you understand politics did don't think you understand politics did don't think you understand politics did I just say that there is a Chasm that I just say that there is a Chasm that I just say that there is a Chasm that separates your ideology from the limits separates your ideology from the limits separates your ideology from the limits and constraints imposed by politics and and constraints imposed by politics and and constraints imposed by politics and reality now Professor Mars I suspect reality now Professor Mars I suspect reality now Professor Mars I suspect would agree that the Zionist movement would agree that the Zionist movement would agree that the Zionist movement from fairly early on was committed to from fairly early on was committed to from fairly early on was committed to the idea of a Jewish State I am aware of the idea of a Jewish State I am aware of the idea of a Jewish State I am aware of only one major study probably written 40 only one major study probably written 40 only one major study probably written 40 years ago the the bational idea in years ago the the bational idea in years ago the the bational idea in mandatory Palestine by a woman I forgot mandatory Palestine by a woman I forgot mandatory Palestine by a woman I forgot her name now you'll remember her I'm her name now you'll remember her I'm her name now you'll remember her I'm trying to yeah okay but you know the trying to yeah okay but you know the trying to yeah okay but you know the book I think so yeah she is the only one book I think so yeah she is the only one book I think so yeah she is the only one who tried to persuasively argue that the who tried to persuasively argue that the who tried to persuasively argue that the Zionist movement was actually not Zionist movement was actually not Zionist movement was actually not formally actually committed to the formally actually committed to the formally actually committed to the bational idea but most historians of the bational idea but most historians of the bational idea but most historians of the subject agree the Zionist movement was subject agree the Zionist movement was subject agree the Zionist movement was committed to the idea of a Jewish State committed to the idea of a Jewish State committed to the idea of a Jewish State having written by doctoral dissertation having written by doctoral dissertation having written by doctoral dissertation on the topic I was confirmed in that on the topic I was confirmed in that on the topic I was confirmed in that idea because Professor chsky who was my idea because Professor chsky who was my idea because Professor chsky who was my closest friend for about 40 years was closest friend for about 40 years was closest friend for about 40 years was very committed to the idea that b very committed to the idea that b very committed to the idea that b nationalism was the dominant Trend in

nationalism was the dominant Trend in nationalism was the dominant Trend in Zionism I could not agree with I Zionism I could not agree with I Zionism I could not agree with I couldn't go with him there but Professor couldn't go with him there but Professor couldn't go with him there but Professor moris you are aware that until the moris you are aware that until the moris you are aware that until the builtmore resolution in builtmore resolution in builtmore resolution in 1942 the Zionist movement never declared 1942 the Zionist movement never declared 1942 the Zionist movement never declared it was for a Jewish State why because it it was for a Jewish State why because it it was for a Jewish State why because it was politically impossible at the moment was politically impossible at the moment was politically impossible at the moment until until until 1942 there is your ideology there are 1942 there is your ideology there are 1942 there is your ideology there are your convictions there are your your convictions there are your your convictions there are your operative plans and there's also operative plans and there's also operative plans and there's also separately what you say in public the separately what you say in public the separately what you say in public the Zionist movement couldn't say in public Zionist movement couldn't say in public Zionist movement couldn't say in public we're expelling all the Arabs they can't we're expelling all the Arabs they can't we're expelling all the Arabs they can't say that and they couldn't even say we say that and they couldn't even say we say that and they couldn't even say we support a Jewish State until support a Jewish State until support a Jewish State until 1942 you're conflating two things that 1942 you're conflating two things that 1942 you're conflating two things that the The zionists Wanted a Jewish State the The zionists Wanted a Jewish State the The zionists Wanted a Jewish State correct that didn't mean expulsion of correct that didn't mean expulsion of correct that didn't mean expulsion of the Arabs it's not the same thing they the Arabs it's not the same thing they the Arabs it's not the same thing they wanted a Jewish state with a Jewish wanted a Jewish state with a Jewish wanted a Jewish state with a Jewish majority but they were willing as it majority but they were willing as it majority but they were willing as it turned out both in 37 and in 40 47 and turned out both in 37 and in 40 47 and turned out both in 37 and in 40 47 and subsequently to have an Arab subsequently to have an Arab subsequently to have an Arab minority transfer a large Arab minor minority transfer a large Arab minor minority transfer a large Arab minor there was a trans they were willing to there was a trans they were willing to there was a trans they were willing to have a large Arab minority in the have a large Arab minority in the have a large Arab minority in the country and they ended up with a large country and they ended up with a large country and they ended up with a large Arab minority in the country 20% of the Arab minority in the country 20% of the Arab minority in the country 20% of the population in 49 was Arab and they ended population in 49 was Arab and they ended population in 49 was Arab and they ended up for about 5 minutes before they were up for about 5 minutes before they were up for about 5 minutes before they were expelled they agreed to end up till 47 expelled they agreed to end up till 47 expelled they agreed to end up till 47 and then they were gone by March 1949

and then they were gone by March 1949 and then they were gone by March 1949 what happened in between the rejection what happened in between the rejection what happened in between the rejection of the partition plan and the expulsion of the partition plan and the expulsion of the partition plan and the expulsion of the Arabs the Arabs launched the war of the Arabs the Arabs launched the war of the Arabs the Arabs launched the war well yeah I mean like it's not it wasn't well yeah I mean like it's not it wasn't well yeah I mean like it's not it wasn't random like there's a potential that random like there's a potential that random like there's a potential that agree it wasn't random I totally agree agree it wasn't random I totally agree agree it wasn't random I totally agree with that it was by Design youand you with that it was by Design youand you with that it was by Design youand you can say that but in this case the facts can say that but in this case the facts can say that but in this case the facts betray you there was no Arab acceptance betray you there was no Arab acceptance betray you there was no Arab acceptance of anything that would have allowed for of anything that would have allowed for of anything that would have allowed for a Jewish state to exist number one and a Jewish state to exist number one and a Jewish state to exist number one and number two I think that it's entirely number two I think that it's entirely number two I think that it's entirely possible given how things happen after possible given how things happen after possible given how things happen after war that this exact same conflict could war that this exact same conflict could war that this exact same conflict could have played out and an explosion would have played out and an explosion would have played out and an explosion would have happened without any ideology at have happened without any ideology at have happened without any ideology at play that there was a people that play that there was a people that play that there was a people that disagreed on who had territorial rights disagreed on who had territorial rights disagreed on who had territorial rights to a land there was a massive war to a land there was a massive war to a land there was a massive war afterwards and then a bunch of their afterwards and then a bunch of their afterwards and then a bunch of their friends invaded after to reinforce the friends invaded after to reinforce the friends invaded after to reinforce the idea that the Jewish people in this case idea that the Jewish people in this case idea that the Jewish people in this case couldn't have a state there could have couldn't have a state there could have couldn't have a state there could have been a transfer regardless anything been a transfer regardless anything been a transfer regardless anything could have been that's not what history could have been that's not what history could have been that's not what history is about history is about Palestinian is about history is about Palestinian is about history is about Palestinian rection is to any peace deal over over I rection is to any peace deal over over I rection is to any peace deal over over I said when the ball was thrown into the said when the ball was thrown into the said when the ball was thrown into the court of the United Nations they were court of the United Nations they were court of the United Nations they were faced with a practical problem and I for faced with a practical problem and I for faced with a practical problem and I for one am not going to try to one am not going to try to one am not going to try to adjudicate the Rights and Wrongs from adjudicate the Rights and Wrongs from adjudicate the Rights and Wrongs from the beginning I do not the beginning I do not the beginning I do not believe that if territorial displacement believe that if territorial displacement believe that if territorial displacement and dispossession was inherent in the and dispossession was inherent in the and dispossession was inherent in the Zionist project I do not believe it can Zionist project I do not believe it can Zionist project I do not believe it can be a legitimate political Enterprise now be a legitimate political Enterprise now be a legitimate political Enterprise now you might say that's speaking from

you might say that's speaking from you might say that's speaking from 2022 or 2022 or 2022 or 202 now okay but we have to 202 now okay but we have to 202 now okay but we have to recognize that from nearly the beginning recognize that from nearly the beginning recognize that from nearly the beginning for perfectly obvious reasons having for perfectly obvious reasons having for perfectly obvious reasons having nothing to do with nothing to do with nothing to do with anti-semitism anti- westernism anti-semitism anti- westernism anti-semitism anti- westernism anti-europeanism but because no people anti-europeanism but because no people anti-europeanism but because no people that I am aware of would that I am aware of would that I am aware of would voluntarily seed its country all that voluntarily seed its country all that voluntarily seed its country all that sold voluntarily you can perfectly sold voluntarily you can perfectly sold voluntarily you can perfectly understand native American resistance to understand native American resistance to understand native American resistance to Euro colonialism you can perfectly well Euro colonialism you can perfectly well Euro colonialism you can perfectly well understanded without any understanded without any understanded without any anti-europeanism anti-h ism anti- anti-europeanism anti-h ism anti- anti-europeanism anti-h ism anti- christianism they didn't want to seed christianism they didn't want to seed christianism they didn't want to seed their country to Invaders that's their country to Invaders that's their country to Invaders that's completely understandable you're completely understandable you're completely understandable you're minimizing the anti-semitic element you minimizing the anti-semitic element you minimizing the anti-semitic element you minim in Arab Nation all your books you minim in Arab Nation all your books you minim in Arab Nation all your books you minimized no no no the husseini was an minimized no no no the husseini was an minimized no no no the husseini was an anti-site the leader of the Palestinian anti-site the leader of the Palestinian anti-site the leader of the Palestinian national movement in the 30s and 40s was national movement in the 30s and 40s was national movement in the 30s and 40s was an anti-site this was one of the things an anti-site this was one of the things an anti-site this was one of the things which drove him and also drove him in which drove him and also drove him in which drove him and also drove him in the end to work in Berlin for Hitler for the end to work in Berlin for Hitler for the end to work in Berlin for Hitler for four years with Nazi giving Nazi four years with Nazi giving Nazi four years with Nazi giving Nazi propaganda to the Arab world calling on propaganda to the Arab world calling on propaganda to the Arab world calling on the Arabs to murder the Jews that's what the Arabs to murder the Jews that's what the Arabs to murder the Jews that's what he did in World War II that's the leader he did in World War II that's the leader he did in World War II that's the leader of the Palestinian Arab national of the Palestinian Arab national of the Palestinian Arab national movement and he wasn't alone he wasn't

movement and he wasn't alone he wasn't movement and he wasn't alone he wasn't alone why is it have you read your book alone why is it have you read your book alone why is it have you read your book righteous victims you can read it and righteous victims you can read it and righteous victims you can read it and read it and read it and read it as I read it and read it and read it as I read it and read it and read it as I have you will find barely a word about have you will find barely a word about have you will find barely a word about the Arabs being motivated by the Arabs being motivated by the Arabs being motivated by anti-Semitism it exists though I didn't anti-Semitism it exists though I didn't anti-Semitism it exists though I didn't say it doesn't exist you agree that it say it doesn't exist you agree that it say it doesn't exist you agree that it exists hey I don't know a single non-jew exists hey I don't know a single non-jew exists hey I don't know a single non-jew who doesn't Harbor anti-semitic talking who doesn't Harbor anti-semitic talking who doesn't Harbor anti-semitic talking about Arabs now yeah but I don't know about Arabs now yeah but I don't know about Arabs now yeah but I don't know anybody that's just part of the human anybody that's just part of the human anybody that's just part of the human condition condition condition anti-Semitism among the Arabs so anti-Semitism among the Arabs so anti-Semitism among the Arabs so Professor Mars here's my Professor Mars here's my Professor Mars here's my problem I didn't see that in your problem I didn't see that in your problem I didn't see that in your righteous victims even when you talked righteous victims even when you talked righteous victims even when you talked about the first in father and you talked about the first in father and you talked about the first in father and you talked about the second into F and you talked about the second into F and you talked about the second into F and you talked about how there was a lot of influence about how there was a lot of influence about how there was a lot of influence by Hamas the Islamic movement you even by Hamas the Islamic movement you even by Hamas the Islamic movement you even stated that there was a lot of stated that there was a lot of stated that there was a lot of anti-Semitism in those movements but anti-Semitism in those movements but anti-Semitism in those movements but then you went on to say but of course at then you went on to say but of course at then you went on to say but of course at bottom it was about the occupation it bottom it was about the occupation it bottom it was about the occupation it wasn't about and I've read it yeah yeah wasn't about and I've read it yeah yeah wasn't about and I've read it yeah yeah but you're moving from different I'm but you're moving from different I'm but you're moving from different I'm notes across the ages talk about your notes across the ages talk about your notes across the ages talk about your whole book The began the one talking whole book The began the one talking whole book The began the one talking about I looked and looked and looked for about I looked and looked and looked for about I looked and looked and looked for evidence of this anti-Semitism as being evidence of this anti-Semitism as being evidence of this anti-Semitism as being a chief motor of Arab resistance to P a chief motor of Arab resistance to P a chief motor of Arab resistance to P Zionism I didn't see it you like did he

Zionism I didn't see it you like did he Zionism I didn't see it you like did he make that claim I don't remember the make that claim I don't remember the make that claim I don't remember the word Chief it's it's one of the element word Chief it's it's one of the element word Chief it's it's one of the element very very very binary yes binary please don't give me binary yes binary please don't give me binary yes binary please don't give me this postmodernism binary you're the one this postmodernism binary you're the one this postmodernism binary you're the one you are thinking in terms of you're the you are thinking in terms of you're the you are thinking in terms of you're the one that said one that said one that said the do you have your book here talk the do you have your book here talk the do you have your book here talk about 137 talk in black and white you're about 137 talk in black and white you're about 137 talk in black and white you're talking in black and white Concepts when talking in black and white Concepts when talking in black and white Concepts when history is much grayer lots of things history is much grayer lots of things history is much grayer lots of things happen because of lots of reasons not happen because of lots of reasons not happen because of lots of reasons not one or the other and and you don't you one or the other and and you don't you one or the other and and you don't you don't seem to see that can I ask to don't seem to see that can I ask to don't seem to see that can I ask to because it's for them to talk to to very because it's for them to talk to to very because it's for them to talk to to very quick question what was what do you quick question what was what do you quick question what was what do you think the ideal solution was on the Arab think the ideal solution was on the Arab think the ideal solution was on the Arab side from 47 what would they have side from 47 what would they have side from 47 what would they have preferred and what would happened and preferred and what would happened and preferred and what would happened and then then the second one what would have then then the second one what would have then then the second one what would have happened if Jews would have lost the war happened if Jews would have lost the war happened if Jews would have lost the war in 48 what do you think would have in 48 what do you think would have in 48 what do you think would have happened to the Israeli population happened to the Israeli population happened to the Israeli population Jewish population I think the the Jewish population I think the the Jewish population I think the the Palestinians and the Arabs uh were Palestinians and the Arabs uh were Palestinians and the Arabs uh were explicit that they wanted a unitary I explicit that they wanted a unitary I explicit that they wanted a unitary I think Federal uh State and and they made think Federal uh State and and they made think Federal uh State and and they made their submissions to uh their submissions to uh their submissions to uh unscop uh they made their um uh appeals unscop uh they made their um uh appeals unscop uh they made their um uh appeals at the UN General Assembly what do you at the UN General Assembly what do you at the UN General Assembly what do you mean by Unitarian Federal I don't get mean by Unitarian Federal I don't get mean by Unitarian Federal I don't get that they wanted an Arab State they that they wanted an Arab State they that they wanted an Arab State they wanted Palestine to be an Arab State wanted Palestine to be an Arab State wanted Palestine to be an Arab State simply the word unitary federal they simply the word unitary federal they simply the word unitary federal they wanted Palestine Arab an exclusively wanted Palestine Arab an exclusively wanted Palestine Arab an exclusively Arab State no wasn't an no wasn't an Arab State no wasn't an no wasn't an Arab State no wasn't an no wasn't an exclusively Arab State I think we have exclusively Arab State I think we have exclusively Arab State I think we have to distinguish between Palestinian and to distinguish between Palestinian and to distinguish between Palestinian and Arab opposition to a Jewish state in Arab opposition to a Jewish state in Arab opposition to a Jewish state in Palestine on the one hand and um

Palestine on the one hand and um Palestine on the one hand and um Palestinian and Arab attitudes to um Palestinian and Arab attitudes to um Palestinian and Arab attitudes to um Jewish existence in Palestine there's a Jewish existence in Palestine there's a Jewish existence in Palestine there's a fundamental difference the leader of the fundamental difference the leader of the fundamental difference the leader of the movement said that all the Jews who had movement said that all the Jews who had movement said that all the Jews who had come since 1917 and that's the majority come since 1917 and that's the majority come since 1917 and that's the majority of the Jews in Palestine of the Jews in Palestine of the Jews in Palestine 1947 shouldn't be there they shouldn't 1947 shouldn't be there they shouldn't 1947 shouldn't be there they shouldn't be citizens and they shouldn't be be citizens and they shouldn't be be citizens and they shouldn't be there4 I'm not also it's true I can there4 I'm not also it's true I can there4 I'm not also it's true I can understand the sentiment but I think understand the sentiment but I think understand the sentiment but I think it's wrong but also you you we agree on it's wrong but also you you we agree on it's wrong but also you you we agree on I also you guys you used the words I also you guys you used the words I also you guys you used the words earlier that it was Supremacy and earlier that it was Supremacy and earlier that it was Supremacy and exclusivity that the Zion I want to exclusivity that the Zion I want to exclusivity that the Zion I want to answer your question um as you husseini answer your question um as you husseini answer your question um as you husseini did say that and I'm sure there was a did say that and I'm sure there was a did say that and I'm sure there was a very substantial uh body of Palestinian very substantial uh body of Palestinian very substantial uh body of Palestinian Arab public opinion that endorsed that Arab public opinion that endorsed that Arab public opinion that endorsed that um but by the same token I think um uh um but by the same token I think um uh um but by the same token I think um uh unitary Arab State as you call it or a unitary Arab State as you call it or a unitary Arab State as you call it or a Palestinian State could have been Palestinian State could have been Palestinian State could have been established with arrangements with established with arrangements with established with arrangements with guarantees um to ensure the security and guarantees um to ensure the security and guarantees um to ensure the security and rights of of both communities how that rights of of both communities how that rights of of both communities how that would work in detail had had been um uh would work in detail had had been um uh would work in detail had had been um uh discussed and proposed but never uh discussed and proposed but never uh discussed and proposed but never uh resolved resolved resolved and again I think you know Jewish fears and again I think you know Jewish fears and again I think you know Jewish fears about what would have second Holocaust about what would have second Holocaust about what would have second Holocaust that's what we no I I think that was the that's what we no I I think that was the that's what we no I I think that was the Jewish fear a second Holocaust that that Jewish fear a second Holocaust that that Jewish fear a second Holocaust that that may well have been the Jewish fear it may well have been the Jewish fear it may well have been the Jewish fear it was an unfounded uh Jewish fear it was

was an unfounded uh Jewish fear it was was an unfounded uh Jewish fear it was unfounded of course it was unfounded unfounded of course it was unfounded unfounded of course it was unfounded what about like in 48 and you really what about like in 48 and you really what about like in 48 and you really think you really think that the think you really think that the think you really think that the Palestinians had they won the war were Palestinians had they won the war were Palestinians had they won the war were going to import ovens and crematoria going to import ovens and crematoria going to import ovens and crematoria from Germany but there were programs from Germany but there were programs from Germany but there were programs across in almost every single Arab state across in almost every single Arab state across in almost every single Arab state where there were Jews living after after where there were Jews living after after where there were Jews living after after 48 after 56 after 67 there were always 48 after 56 after 67 there were always 48 after 56 after 67 there were always progrms there were always flights from progrms there were always flights from progrms there were always flights from Jews from those countries to Israel Jews from those countries to Israel Jews from those countries to Israel afterward I think I wouldn't I wouldn't afterward I think I wouldn't I wouldn't afterward I think I wouldn't I wouldn't say there were always pograms in every say there were always pograms in every say there were always pograms in every Arab State I think there was flight of Arab State I think there was flight of Arab State I think there was flight of of um uh Arab Jews for multiple reasons of um uh Arab Jews for multiple reasons of um uh Arab Jews for multiple reasons in some cases for precisely the reasons in some cases for precisely the reasons in some cases for precisely the reasons you say if you look at the Jewish you say if you look at the Jewish you say if you look at the Jewish community in Algeria for example their community in Algeria for example their community in Algeria for example their flight had virtually nothing to do with flight had virtually nothing to do with flight had virtually nothing to do with um uh the Arab Israel conflict the issue um uh the Arab Israel conflict the issue um uh the Arab Israel conflict the issue of of Algerian Jews was that the French of of Algerian Jews was that the French of of Algerian Jews was that the French gave them citizenship during their gave them citizenship during their gave them citizenship during their colonial rule of Algeria and they colonial rule of Algeria and they colonial rule of Algeria and they increasingly became identified uh with increasingly became identified uh with increasingly became identified uh with French rule and when Algeria became French rule and when Algeria became French rule and when Algeria became independent and um all the French um independent and um all the French um independent and um all the French um ended up uh uh leaving out of fear or ended up uh uh leaving out of fear or ended up uh uh leaving out of fear or out of disappointment or out of whatever out of disappointment or out of whatever out of disappointment or out of whatever um the Jews were identified as French um the Jews were identified as French um the Jews were identified as French rather than Algerian this is a bit of a rather than Algerian this is a bit of a rather than Algerian this is a bit of a red hairing there were programs in the red hairing there were programs in the red hairing there were programs in the Arab countries in bahin even where Arab countries in bahin even where Arab countries in bahin even where there's almost no Jews there was a prog there's almost no Jews there was a prog there's almost no Jews there was a prog in 1947 there was a pram Aleppo in 1947 in 1947 there was a pram Aleppo in 1947 in 1947 there was a pram Aleppo in 1947 I'm not denying any of that history I'm not denying any of that history I'm not denying any of that history killings of Jews in Iraq and Egypt in killings of Jews in Iraq and Egypt in killings of Jews in Iraq and Egypt in 1948

1948 1948 49 so but the Arabs the Jews basically 49 so but the Arabs the Jews basically 49 so but the Arabs the Jews basically fled the Arab states not for multiple fled the Arab states not for multiple fled the Arab states not for multiple reasons they fled because they felt that reasons they fled because they felt that reasons they fled because they felt that the governments there and the societies the governments there and the societies the governments there and the societies am Amid Amid which they had lived for am Amid Amid which they had lived for am Amid Amid which they had lived for hundreds of years no longer want look hundreds of years no longer want look hundreds of years no longer want look without without getting into the details without without getting into the details without without getting into the details I think we can both agree that I think we can both agree that I think we can both agree that ultimately a clear majority of Arab Jews ultimately a clear majority of Arab Jews ultimately a clear majority of Arab Jews who believed that after having lived in who believed that after having lived in who believed that after having lived in these countries for for centuries for these countries for for centuries for these countries for for centuries for centuries for centuries for centuries centuries for centuries for centuries centuries for centuries for centuries for centuries if not Millennia um came for centuries if not Millennia um came for centuries if not Millennia um came to the unfortunate conclusion that their to the unfortunate conclusion that their to the unfortunate conclusion that their situation had become untenable yes um I situation had become untenable yes um I situation had become untenable yes um I also think um that we can both agree also think um that we can both agree also think um that we can both agree that this had never been an issue prior that this had never been an issue prior that this had never been an issue prior to Zionism and the emergence of the to Zionism and the emergence of the to Zionism and the emergence of the state of isra prior to Zionism GRS state of isra prior to Zionism GRS state of isra prior to Zionism GRS didn't begin with Zionism in the Arab didn't begin with Zionism in the Arab didn't begin with Zionism in the Arab world the issue is is is is the point I world the issue is is is is the point I world the issue is is is is the point I raised which is whether these raised which is whether these raised which is whether these communities had ever come to a communities had ever come to a communities had ever come to a collective conclusion that their collective conclusion that their collective conclusion that their position had become untenable in this position had become untenable in this position had become untenable in this part of the world no they were Arab Jews part of the world no they were Arab Jews part of the world no they were Arab Jews well because untable meant there was no well because untable meant there was no well because untable meant there was no alternative but with the creation of alternative but with the creation of alternative but with the creation of Israel there was an alternative right a Israel there was an alternative right a Israel there was an alternative right a place where they could go and not be place where they could go and not be place where they could go and not be discriminated against or live as second discriminated against or live as second discriminated against or live as second class citizens or be subject to Arab class citizens or be subject to Arab class citizens or be subject to Arab majority States I I also think it's majority States I I also think it's majority States I I also think it's interesting that like when you analyze interesting that like when you analyze interesting that like when you analyze the um the flight of Jewish people and the um the flight of Jewish people and the um the flight of Jewish people and I've seen this that there it's not it I've seen this that there it's not it I've seen this that there it's not it wasn't just I agree with you it wasn't wasn't just I agree with you it wasn't wasn't just I agree with you it wasn't just a mass exposion from all the Arab just a mass exposion from all the Arab just a mass exposion from all the Arab states there were definitely push states there were definitely push states there were definitely push factors there were also pull factors now

factors there were also pull factors now factors there were also pull factors now I don't know how you guys feel about the I don't know how you guys feel about the I don't know how you guys feel about the knba but when the analysis the nakba knba but when the analysis the nakba knba but when the analysis the nakba comes in again it's back to that well comes in again it's back to that well comes in again it's back to that well that was actually just a top- down that was actually just a top- down that was actually just a top- down exposion um you know the retreat of exposion um you know the retreat of exposion um you know the retreat of wealthy Arab people in the 30s didn't wealthy Arab people in the 30s didn't wealthy Arab people in the 30s didn't matter uh any of the messaging from the matter uh any of the messaging from the matter uh any of the messaging from the surrounding Arab states didn't matter it surrounding Arab states didn't matter it surrounding Arab states didn't matter it was just an expulsion from Jewish people was just an expulsion from Jewish people was just an expulsion from Jewish people or people running from their lives from or people running from their lives from or people running from their lives from Jewish massacres um again it's like that Jewish massacres um again it's like that Jewish massacres um again it's like that I feel like it's a SEL a stive critical I feel like it's a SEL a stive critical I feel like it's a SEL a stive critical analis the term Jewish here because it analis the term Jewish here because it analis the term Jewish here because it wasn't the you know the Jews of England wasn't the you know the Jews of England wasn't the you know the Jews of England or the Soviet say jewi because prior to or the Soviet say jewi because prior to or the Soviet say jewi because prior to 48 say Israeli you I think we should I 48 say Israeli you I think we should I 48 say Israeli you I think we should I think it's useful to to say um referred think it's useful to to say um referred think it's useful to to say um referred to zionists before 1948 and Israelis to zionists before 1948 and Israelis to zionists before 1948 and Israelis after 48 we don't need to implicate um after 48 we don't need to implicate um after 48 we don't need to implicate um well sure but well sure but well sure but but the Jewish people that were being but the Jewish people that were being but the Jewish people that were being attacked in Arab states weren't zionists attacked in Arab states weren't zionists attacked in Arab states weren't zionists they were just Jews living there just they were just Jews living there just they were just Jews living there just comment on that I was rereading uh comment on that I was rereading uh comment on that I was rereading uh schlomo bami's last book and he does at schlomo bami's last book and he does at schlomo bami's last book and he does at the end discuss at some length the whole the end discuss at some length the whole the end discuss at some length the whole issue of the refugee question bearing on issue of the refugee question bearing on issue of the refugee question bearing on the so-called peace process and on the the so-called peace process and on the the so-called peace process and on the question of 48 and the Arab immigration question of 48 and the Arab immigration question of 48 and the Arab immigration if you allow me let me just quote him if you allow me let me just quote him if you allow me let me just quote him Israel is particularly fond of the Israel is particularly fond of the Israel is particularly fond of the awkwardly full FSE symmetry she makes awkwardly full FSE symmetry she makes awkwardly full FSE symmetry she makes between the Palestinian refugee crisis between the Palestinian refugee crisis between the Palestinian refugee crisis and the forced immigration of 600,000 and the forced immigration of 600,000 and the forced immigration of 600,000 Jews from Arab countries following the Jews from Arab countries following the Jews from Arab countries following the creation of the state of Israel as if it creation of the state of Israel as if it creation of the state of Israel as if it were quote an unplanned exchange of UNP

were quote an unplanned exchange of UNP were quote an unplanned exchange of UNP populations unquote and then Mr benami populations unquote and then Mr benami populations unquote and then Mr benami for those of you who are listening he for those of you who are listening he for those of you who are listening he was Israel's former foreign minister and was Israel's former foreign minister and was Israel's former foreign minister and he's an influential historian in his own he's an influential historian in his own he's an influential historian in his own right he says in fact right he says in fact right he says in fact envoys from the mosad and the Jewish envoys from the mosad and the Jewish envoys from the mosad and the Jewish agency worked underground in Arab agency worked underground in Arab agency worked underground in Arab countries and Iran to encourage Jews to countries and Iran to encourage Jews to countries and Iran to encourage Jews to go to Israel more importantly for many go to Israel more importantly for many go to Israel more importantly for many Jews in Arab states the very possibility Jews in Arab states the very possibility Jews in Arab states the very possibility of immigrating to Israel was the of immigrating to Israel was the of immigrating to Israel was the culmination of millennial aspirations it culmination of millennial aspirations it culmination of millennial aspirations it represented the consummation represented the consummation represented the consummation of a dream to take part in Israel's of a dream to take part in Israel's of a dream to take part in Israel's Resurgence as a nation so this idea that Resurgence as a nation so this idea that Resurgence as a nation so this idea that they were all expelled after they were all expelled after they were all expelled after 1948 it's that's one area Professor 1948 it's that's one area Professor 1948 it's that's one area Professor Maris I defer to expertise that's one of Maris I defer to expertise that's one of Maris I defer to expertise that's one of my credos in life I don't know the my credos in life I don't know the my credos in life I don't know the Israeli literature but as it's been Israeli literature but as it's been Israeli literature but as it's been translated in translated in translated in English there is very little solid English there is very little solid English there is very little solid scholarship on what happened in 194 48 scholarship on what happened in 194 48 scholarship on what happened in 194 48 in the Arab countries and which caused in the Arab countries and which caused in the Arab countries and which caused the Jews to leave Arab Jews the Arab the Jews to leave Arab Jews the Arab the Jews to leave Arab Jews the Arab Jews right uh Jews right uh Jews right uh but uh shomo benami knows the literature but uh shomo benami knows the literature but uh shomo benami knows the literature he knows the scholarship he's a his yeah he knows the scholarship he's a his yeah he knows the scholarship he's a his yeah from morocc right so he knows from Iraq from morocc right so he knows from Iraq from morocc right so he knows from Iraq was written on this issue and they wrote

was written on this issue and they wrote was written on this issue and they wrote that the Jews and the Arab lands were that the Jews and the Arab lands were that the Jews and the Arab lands were not pro zionists they weren't zionists not pro zionists they weren't zionists not pro zionists they weren't zionists at all certainly ai's family was anti at all certainly ai's family was anti at all certainly ai's family was anti and AI schlim when he was interviewed by and AI schlim when he was interviewed by and AI schlim when he was interviewed by Marin Rapaport on this question he said Marin Rapaport on this question he said Marin Rapaport on this question he said you simply cannot say that the Iraqi you simply cannot say that the Iraqi you simply cannot say that the Iraqi Jews were expelled it's just not true Jews were expelled it's just not true Jews were expelled it's just not true and he was speaking as an Iraqi Jew who and he was speaking as an Iraqi Jew who and he was speaking as an Iraqi Jew who left with his father family in 1948 they left with his father family in 1948 they left with his father family in 1948 they were pushed out they weren't expelled were pushed out they weren't expelled were pushed out they weren't expelled well that that's probably the right well that that's probably the right well that that's probably the right phrase they were pushed I think it's phrase they were pushed I think it's phrase they were pushed I think it's more complex than than that I think it more complex than than that I think it more complex than than that I think it was sorry I interrupted you no you're was sorry I interrupted you no you're was sorry I interrupted you no you're not interrupting me because I don't I I not interrupting me because I don't I I not interrupting me because I don't I I only know what's been translated into only know what's been translated into only know what's been translated into English and the English literature on English and the English literature on English and the English literature on the subject is very small and not the subject is very small and not the subject is very small and not scholarly now there may be an uh Hebrew scholarly now there may be an uh Hebrew scholarly now there may be an uh Hebrew literature I don't know but I was literature I don't know but I was literature I don't know but I was surprised that even schomo benami a surprised that even schomo benami a surprised that even schomo benami a stward of his state fair enough on this stward of his state fair enough on this stward of his state fair enough on this particular point he called it false particular point he called it false particular point he called it false symmetry no no step is right there was a symmetry no no step is right there was a symmetry no no step is right there was a pull and push mechanism in the departure pull and push mechanism in the departure pull and push mechanism in the departure of the Jews from the Arab lands post 48 of the Jews from the Arab lands post 48 of the Jews from the Arab lands post 48 but there was also a lot of push a lot but there was also a lot of push a lot but there was also a lot of push a lot of push that's that's indisputable there of push that's that's indisputable there of push that's that's indisputable there was p and on the point of agreement let was p and on the point of agreement let was p and on the point of agreement let on this one brief light of agreement let on this one brief light of agreement let on this one brief light of agreement let us wrap up with this uh topic of history us wrap up with this uh topic of history us wrap up with this uh topic of history and move on to modern day but before and move on to modern day but before and move on to modern day but before that I'm wondering if uh we can just say that I'm wondering if uh we can just say that I'm wondering if uh we can just say a couple of last words on this topic a couple of last words on this topic a couple of last words on this topic Stephen yeah I think that when you look

Stephen yeah I think that when you look Stephen yeah I think that when you look at the behaviors of both parties uh in at the behaviors of both parties uh in at the behaviors of both parties uh in in the time period around 48 or in the time period around 48 or in the time period around 48 or especially 48 and earlier um there's especially 48 and earlier um there's especially 48 and earlier um there's this assumption that there was this huge this assumption that there was this huge this assumption that there was this huge built-in mechanism of Zionism and that built-in mechanism of Zionism and that built-in mechanism of Zionism and that it was going to be inevitable from the it was going to be inevitable from the it was going to be inevitable from the Inception of the first Zionist thought I Inception of the first Zionist thought I Inception of the first Zionist thought I I guess that appeared in herz's mind I guess that appeared in herz's mind I guess that appeared in herz's mind that there would be a mass violent that there would be a mass violent that there would be a mass violent population transfer of Arab Palestinians population transfer of Arab Palestinians population transfer of Arab Palestinians out of what would become the Israeli out of what would become the Israeli out of what would become the Israeli State uh I understand that there are State uh I understand that there are State uh I understand that there are some quotes that we can find that maybe some quotes that we can find that maybe some quotes that we can find that maybe seem to possibly support an idea that seem to possibly support an idea that seem to possibly support an idea that looks close to that but I think when you looks close to that but I think when you looks close to that but I think when you actually consult the record of what actually consult the record of what actually consult the record of what happened when you look at the happened when you look at the happened when you look at the populations the massive populations that populations the massive populations that populations the massive populations that Israel was willing to accept uh within Israel was willing to accept uh within Israel was willing to accept uh within what would be become their state borders what would be become their state borders what would be become their state borders their nation borders uh I just don't their nation borders uh I just don't their nation borders uh I just don't think that the historical record agrees think that the historical record agrees think that the historical record agrees with the idea that Zionist would have with the idea that Zionist would have with the idea that Zionist would have just never been okay living alongside just never been okay living alongside just never been okay living alongside Arab Palestinians uh but when you look Arab Palestinians uh but when you look Arab Palestinians uh but when you look at the other side Arabs would out of at the other side Arabs would out of at the other side Arabs would out of hand reject literally any deal that hand reject literally any deal that hand reject literally any deal that apportioned any amount of that land for apportioned any amount of that land for apportioned any amount of that land for any state relating to Jewish people or any state relating to Jewish people or any state relating to Jewish people or the Israeli people I think it was said the Israeli people I think it was said the Israeli people I think it was said even on the other end of the table that even on the other end of the table that even on the other end of the table that uh Arab Palestinians would have never uh Arab Palestinians would have never uh Arab Palestinians would have never accepted the Arabs would have never accepted the Arabs would have never accepted the Arabs would have never accepted any Jewish State whatsoever so accepted any Jewish State whatsoever so accepted any Jewish State whatsoever so it's interesting that on the ideology it's interesting that on the ideology it's interesting that on the ideology part where it's claimed that zionists part where it's claimed that zionists part where it's claimed that zionists are people of exclusion and Supremacy are people of exclusion and Supremacy are people of exclusion and Supremacy and expulsion uh we can find that in and expulsion uh we can find that in and expulsion uh we can find that in Diary entries but we can find that Diary entries but we can find that Diary entries but we can find that expressed in very real terms on the Arab expressed in very real terms on the Arab expressed in very real terms on the Arab side I think in all of their behavior side I think in all of their behavior side I think in all of their behavior around 48 and earlier where the goal was around 48 and earlier where the goal was around 48 and earlier where the goal was the destruction of the Israeli State um the destruction of the Israeli State um the destruction of the Israeli State um it would have been the dispossession of it would have been the dispossession of it would have been the dispossession of many Jewish people it probably would

many Jewish people it probably would many Jewish people it probably would have been the exposion of a lot of them have been the exposion of a lot of them have been the exposion of a lot of them back to Europe and I think that very back to Europe and I think that very back to Europe and I think that very clearly plays out in the difference clearly plays out in the difference clearly plays out in the difference between the actions of the Arabs versus between the actions of the Arabs versus between the actions of the Arabs versus some diary entries of some Jewish some diary entries of some Jewish some diary entries of some Jewish leaders Benny well one thing which stood leaders Benny well one thing which stood leaders Benny well one thing which stood out and um I think mu made this point is out and um I think mu made this point is out and um I think mu made this point is that the Arabs had nothing to do with that the Arabs had nothing to do with that the Arabs had nothing to do with the Holocaust but then the world the Holocaust but then the world the Holocaust but then the world Community forced the Arabs to pay the Community forced the Arabs to pay the Community forced the Arabs to pay the price for the Holocaust that's the price for the Holocaust that's the price for the Holocaust that's the traditional Arab argument um this is traditional Arab argument um this is traditional Arab argument um this is slightly distorting the reality the slightly distorting the reality the slightly distorting the reality the Arabs in the Arabs in the Arabs in the 1930s did their utmost to prevent Jewish 1930s did their utmost to prevent Jewish 1930s did their utmost to prevent Jewish IM immigration from Europe and reaching IM immigration from Europe and reaching IM immigration from Europe and reaching Palestine which was the only Safe Haven Palestine which was the only Safe Haven Palestine which was the only Safe Haven available because America Britain France available because America Britain France available because America Britain France nobody wanted Jews anywhere and they nobody wanted Jews anywhere and they nobody wanted Jews anywhere and they were being persecuted in Central Europe were being persecuted in Central Europe were being persecuted in Central Europe and eventually would be massacred in and eventually would be massacred in and eventually would be massacred in large numbers so the Arab effort to large numbers so the Arab effort to large numbers so the Arab effort to pressure the British to prevent Jews pressure the British to prevent Jews pressure the British to prevent Jews reaching palestine's safe Shores reaching palestine's safe Shores reaching palestine's safe Shores contributed indirectly to the slaughter contributed indirectly to the slaughter contributed indirectly to the slaughter of many Jews in Europe because they of many Jews in Europe because they of many Jews in Europe because they couldn't get to anywhere and they couldn't get to anywhere and they couldn't get to anywhere and they couldn't get to Palestine because the couldn't get to Palestine because the couldn't get to Palestine because the Arabs were busy attacking Jews in Arabs were busy attacking Jews in Arabs were busy attacking Jews in Palestine and attacking the British to Palestine and attacking the British to Palestine and attacking the British to make sure they didn't allow Jews to make sure they didn't allow Jews to make sure they didn't allow Jews to reach this Safe Haven that's important reach this Safe Haven that's important reach this Safe Haven that's important the second thing is of course there's no the second thing is of course there's no the second thing is of course there's no point in belittling the fact that the point in belittling the fact that the point in belittling the fact that the Arab Palestinian Arab National movements Arab Palestinian Arab National movements Arab Palestinian Arab National movements leader husseini um worked for the Nazis leader husseini um worked for the Nazis leader husseini um worked for the Nazis in the 1940s he got a salary from the in the 1940s he got a salary from the in the 1940s he got a salary from the German foreign Ministry he raised troops German foreign Ministry he raised troops German foreign Ministry he raised troops among Muslims in Bosnia for the SS and

among Muslims in Bosnia for the SS and among Muslims in Bosnia for the SS and he broadcast to the Arab world calling he broadcast to the Arab world calling he broadcast to the Arab world calling for the murder of the Jews in the Middle for the murder of the Jews in the Middle for the murder of the Jews in the Middle East this is what he did and the Arabs East this is what he did and the Arabs East this is what he did and the Arabs since then have been trying to whitewash since then have been trying to whitewash since then have been trying to whitewash Hussein's role um and not saying he was Hussein's role um and not saying he was Hussein's role um and not saying he was the instigator of the Holocaust but he the instigator of the Holocaust but he the instigator of the Holocaust but he did he helped helped the Arab the did he helped helped the Arab the did he helped helped the Arab the Germans along in in doing what they were Germans along in in doing what they were Germans along in in doing what they were doing and and supported them in doing doing and and supported them in doing doing and and supported them in doing that so there this can't be removed from that so there this can't be removed from that so there this can't be removed from the fact that the Arabs um as you say the fact that the Arabs um as you say the fact that the Arabs um as you say paid a price for the Holocaust but they paid a price for the Holocaust but they paid a price for the Holocaust but they also participated in various ways in also participated in various ways in also participated in various ways in helping it helping it helping it happen right I'll make two points um the happen right I'll make two points um the happen right I'll make two points um the first is um you mentioned ha husseini first is um you mentioned ha husseini first is um you mentioned ha husseini and his uh collaboration with the and his uh collaboration with the and his uh collaboration with the Nazis entirely legitimate point to raise Nazis entirely legitimate point to raise Nazis entirely legitimate point to raise but I think one can also say but I think one can also say but I think one can also say definitively had Haj am Al husseini definitively had Haj am Al husseini definitively had Haj am Al husseini never existed the Holocaust would have never existed the Holocaust would have never existed the Holocaust would have played out precisely certainly um as it played out precisely certainly um as it played out precisely certainly um as it did certainly as far as um Palestinian did certainly as far as um Palestinian did certainly as far as um Palestinian opposition to Jewish immigration to opposition to Jewish immigration to opposition to Jewish immigration to Palestine um during the 1930s is Palestine um during the 1930s is Palestine um during the 1930s is concerned it was of a different concerned it was of a different concerned it was of a different character than for example British and character than for example British and character than for example British and American um rejection of uh Jewish American um rejection of uh Jewish American um rejection of uh Jewish immigration they just didn't want Jews immigration they just didn't want Jews immigration they just didn't want Jews on their soil objectively it helped the on their soil objectively it helped the on their soil objectively it helped the Germans kill the Jews and the Germans kill the Jews and the Germans kill the Jews and the Palestinian case their opposition to Palestinian case their opposition to Palestinian case their opposition to Jewish immigration was to prevent the

Jewish immigration was to prevent the Jewish immigration was to prevent the transformation of their Homeland into a transformation of their Homeland into a transformation of their Homeland into a Jewish state that would dispossess them Jewish state that would dispossess them Jewish state that would dispossess them and I think that's an important and I think that's an important and I think that's an important distinction to make um the other point I distinction to make um the other point I distinction to make um the other point I wanted to make is we've we've spent the wanted to make is we've we've spent the wanted to make is we've we've spent the past several hours talking about uh uh past several hours talking about uh uh past several hours talking about uh uh Zionism transfer and so on but I think Zionism transfer and so on but I think Zionism transfer and so on but I think there's a more fundamental aspect to there's a more fundamental aspect to there's a more fundamental aspect to this which is that um Zionism I think this which is that um Zionism I think this which is that um Zionism I think would have emerged and disappeared as would have emerged and disappeared as would have emerged and disappeared as yet one more utopian political project yet one more utopian political project yet one more utopian political project had it not been for the British um what had it not been for the British um what had it not been for the British um what the preeminent Palestinian historian wi the preeminent Palestinian historian wi the preeminent Palestinian historian wi khedi um has turned the British Shield khedi um has turned the British Shield khedi um has turned the British Shield because I think without the British because I think without the British because I think without the British sponsorship we wouldn't be having this sponsorship we wouldn't be having this sponsorship we wouldn't be having this discussion today um the British um uh discussion today um the British um uh discussion today um the British um uh sponsored Zionism for a very simple sponsored Zionism for a very simple sponsored Zionism for a very simple reason which is that during World War I reason which is that during World War I reason which is that during World War I uh the ottoman armies attempted to march uh the ottoman armies attempted to march uh the ottoman armies attempted to march on the Suz uh Canal Suz Canal was the on the Suz uh Canal Suz Canal was the on the Suz uh Canal Suz Canal was the jugular vein of uh the British Empire um jugular vein of uh the British Empire um jugular vein of uh the British Empire um you know between uh Europe and India you know between uh Europe and India you know between uh Europe and India and the British came to the conclusion and the British came to the conclusion and the British came to the conclusion that they needed to secure the suas that they needed to secure the suas that they needed to secure the suas canal from any threat and as the British canal from any threat and as the British canal from any threat and as the British have done so often in so many places how have done so often in so many places how have done so often in so many places how do you deal with this well you know you do you deal with this well you know you do you deal with this well you know you you bring in a uh foreign minority you bring in a uh foreign minority you bring in a uh foreign minority implant them amongst a hostile uh

implant them amongst a hostile uh implant them amongst a hostile uh population and establish a protectorate population and establish a protectorate population and establish a protectorate over them I don't think um a Jewish over them I don't think um a Jewish over them I don't think um a Jewish state in Palestine had been part of br state in Palestine had been part of br state in Palestine had been part of br intentions and the bfor Declaration very intentions and the bfor Declaration very intentions and the bfor Declaration very specifically speaks about a Jewish specifically speaks about a Jewish specifically speaks about a Jewish National home in Palestine in other National home in Palestine in other National home in Palestine in other words a British protectorate um things words a British protectorate um things words a British protectorate um things ended up taking a different ended up taking a different ended up taking a different course um and I think the the the most course um and I think the the the most course um and I think the the the most important development was uh World War important development was uh World War important development was uh World War II and I think this had maybe less to do II and I think this had maybe less to do II and I think this had maybe less to do with the Holocaust and more to do with with the Holocaust and more to do with with the Holocaust and more to do with the effective bankruptcy of the United the effective bankruptcy of the United the effective bankruptcy of the United Kingdom uh during that war and its Kingdom uh during that war and its Kingdom uh during that war and its inability to sustain um its Global uh inability to sustain um its Global uh inability to sustain um its Global uh Empire it ended up giving up India ended Empire it ended up giving up India ended Empire it ended up giving up India ended up giving up uh Palestine and it's in up giving up uh Palestine and it's in up giving up uh Palestine and it's in that context I think that we need to see that context I think that we need to see that context I think that we need to see um uh the emergence of a uh of a Jewish um uh the emergence of a uh of a Jewish um uh the emergence of a uh of a Jewish state in Palestine and again a Jewish state in Palestine and again a Jewish state in Palestine and again a Jewish State means a state in which the Jewish State means a state in which the Jewish State means a state in which the Jewish Community enjoys um not only a Community enjoys um not only a Community enjoys um not only a demographic majority but an uncontested demographic majority but an uncontested demographic majority but an uncontested able demographic majority an able demographic majority an able demographic majority an uncontestable territorial uh hemony and uncontestable territorial uh hemony and uncontestable territorial uh hemony and an an an uncontestable political Supremacy and uncontestable political Supremacy and uncontestable political Supremacy and that is also why after 1948 the nent that is also why after 1948 the nent that is also why after 1948 the nent Israeli States confiscated I believe up Israeli States confiscated I believe up Israeli States confiscated I believe up to to to 90% of uh lands that had been previously

90% of uh lands that had been previously 90% of uh lands that had been previously owned um by Palestinians who became owned um by Palestinians who became owned um by Palestinians who became citizens of Israel it is why the new citizens of Israel it is why the new citizens of Israel it is why the new Israeli state imposed a military Israeli state imposed a military Israeli state imposed a military government on its population of government on its population of government on its population of Palestinian citizens between Palestinian citizens between Palestinian citizens between 1948 and 1948 and 1948 and 1966 um it is why the Israeli State 1966 um it is why the Israeli State 1966 um it is why the Israeli State effectively um reduced uh the effectively um reduced uh the effectively um reduced uh the Palestinians living within the Israeli Palestinians living within the Israeli Palestinians living within the Israeli State as citizens of the Israeli state State as citizens of the Israeli state State as citizens of the Israeli state to second class citizens on the one hand to second class citizens on the one hand to second class citizens on the one hand promoting Jewish nationalism and Jewish promoting Jewish nationalism and Jewish promoting Jewish nationalism and Jewish nationalist parties on the other hand nationalist parties on the other hand nationalist parties on the other hand doing everything within its power to doing everything within its power to doing everything within its power to suppress and eliminate Palestinian or suppress and eliminate Palestinian or suppress and eliminate Palestinian or Arab um uh nationalist movements and Arab um uh nationalist movements and Arab um uh nationalist movements and that's why today there's a consensus that's why today there's a consensus that's why today there's a consensus among all major human rights among all major human rights among all major human rights organizations that Israel is an organizations that Israel is an organizations that Israel is an apartheid state what the Israeli human apartheid state what the Israeli human apartheid state what the Israeli human rights organization bet selum describes rights organization bet selum describes rights organization bet selum describes a regime of Jewish Supremacy between the a regime of Jewish Supremacy between the a regime of Jewish Supremacy between the river and the Sea you're you're really river and the Sea you're you're really river and the Sea you're you're really tempting a response from the other side tempting a response from the other side tempting a response from the other side on on the last few on on the last few on on the last few sentences okay we'll talk about the sentences okay we'll talk about the sentences okay we'll talk about the claims of of apartheid and so on it's a claims of of apartheid and so on it's a claims of of apartheid and so on it's a fascinating discussion we need to have fascinating discussion we need to have fascinating discussion we need to have it uh nor on the question of the it uh nor on the question of the it uh nor on the question of the responsibility of the Palestinian Arabs responsibility of the Palestinian Arabs responsibility of the Palestinian Arabs for the Nazi holus direct or indirect I for the Nazi holus direct or indirect I for the Nazi holus direct or indirect I consider that an absurd consider that an absurd consider that an absurd claim uh as Gro said and I quoted him

claim uh as Gro said and I quoted him claim uh as Gro said and I quoted him the entire Western World turned its back the entire Western World turned its back the entire Western World turned its back on the Jews on the Jews on the Jews to to to somehow focus on the Palestinians somehow focus on the Palestinians somehow focus on the Palestinians strikes me as completely strikes me as completely strikes me as completely ridiculous number two as M ridiculous number two as M ridiculous number two as M said there's a perfectly understandable said there's a perfectly understandable said there's a perfectly understandable reason why Palestinian Arabs wouldn't reason why Palestinian Arabs wouldn't reason why Palestinian Arabs wouldn't want Jews because in their minds and not want Jews because in their minds and not want Jews because in their minds and not irrationally these Jews intended to irrationally these Jews intended to irrationally these Jews intended to create a Jewish state which would quite create a Jewish state which would quite create a Jewish state which would quite likely have resulted in their exposion likely have resulted in their exposion likely have resulted in their exposion I'm a very generous person I'm a very generous person I'm a very generous person I've actually taken in a homeless person I've actually taken in a homeless person I've actually taken in a homeless person for two and a half years but if I knew for two and a half years but if I knew for two and a half years but if I knew in advance that that homeless person was in advance that that homeless person was in advance that that homeless person was going to try to turn me out of my going to try to turn me out of my going to try to turn me out of my apartment I would think 10,000 times apartment I would think 10,000 times apartment I would think 10,000 times before I took him before I took him before I took him in okay as far as the actual uh in okay as far as the actual uh in okay as far as the actual uh complicity of the Palestinian Arabs if complicity of the Palestinian Arabs if complicity of the Palestinian Arabs if you look at uh rul hilberg's three volum you look at uh rul hilberg's three volum you look at uh rul hilberg's three volum volume classic work the destruction of volume classic work the destruction of volume classic work the destruction of the European jury he has in those the European jury he has in those the European jury he has in those thousand plus pages one sentence one thousand plus pages one sentence one thousand plus pages one sentence one sentence on the role of the Muti of sentence on the role of the Muti of sentence on the role of the Muti of Jerusalem and that I think is probably Jerusalem and that I think is probably Jerusalem and that I think is probably an overstatement but we'll leave it an overstatement but we'll leave it an overstatement but we'll leave it aside the only two points I would make aside the only two points I would make aside the only two points I would make aside from the Holocaust point is number aside from the Holocaust point is number aside from the Holocaust point is number one I do think the transfer discussion

one I do think the transfer discussion one I do think the transfer discussion is useful because it indicates that is useful because it indicates that is useful because it indicates that there was a rational reason behind the there was a rational reason behind the there was a rational reason behind the Arab resistance to Jewish or Zionist Arab resistance to Jewish or Zionist Arab resistance to Jewish or Zionist immigration to Palestine the fear of immigration to Palestine the fear of immigration to Palestine the fear of territorial displacement and territorial displacement and territorial displacement and dispossession and number two there are dispossession and number two there are dispossession and number two there are two issues one is the history and the two issues one is the history and the two issues one is the history and the second is being second is being second is being responsible for your words now some responsible for your words now some responsible for your words now some people accuse me of speaking very slowly people accuse me of speaking very slowly people accuse me of speaking very slowly and they're advised YouTube to turn up and they're advised YouTube to turn up and they're advised YouTube to turn up the speed twice to three times whenever the speed twice to three times whenever the speed twice to three times whenever I'm on one of the reasons I speak slowly I'm on one of the reasons I speak slowly I'm on one of the reasons I speak slowly is because I attach value to every word is because I attach value to every word is because I attach value to every word I say and it is discomforting I say and it is discomforting I say and it is discomforting disorienting where you have a person disorienting where you have a person disorienting where you have a person who's produced a voluminous who's produced a voluminous who's produced a voluminous Corpus rich in insight and rich in our Corpus rich in insight and rich in our Corpus rich in insight and rich in our kival kival kival sources who sources who sources who seems to disown each and every word that seems to disown each and every word that seems to disown each and every word that you pluck from that Corpus by claiming you pluck from that Corpus by claiming you pluck from that Corpus by claiming that it's either out of context or it's that it's either out of context or it's that it's either out of context or it's cherry picking words cherry picking words cherry picking words count and I agree with count and I agree with count and I agree with Lex everybody has the right to resend Lex everybody has the right to resend Lex everybody has the right to resend what they' have said in the past but

what they' have said in the past but what they' have said in the past but what you cannot claim what you cannot claim what you cannot claim is that you didn't say what you said is that you didn't say what you said is that you didn't say what you said I'll stick to the history not the I'll stick to the history not the I'll stick to the history not the current propaganda current propaganda current propaganda 1917 the British the the Zionist 1917 the British the the Zionist 1917 the British the the Zionist movement began way before the British movement began way before the British movement began way before the British supported the Zionist movement for supported the Zionist movement for supported the Zionist movement for decades in 1917 the British jumped in decades in 1917 the British jumped in decades in 1917 the British jumped in and issued the balur Declaration and issued the balur Declaration and issued the balur Declaration supporting the emergence of a Jewish supporting the emergence of a Jewish supporting the emergence of a Jewish National home in Palestine which most National home in Palestine which most National home in Palestine which most people understood to mean eventual people understood to mean eventual people understood to mean eventual Jewish statehood in Palestine most Jewish statehood in Palestine most Jewish statehood in Palestine most people understood that in Britain and in people understood that in Britain and in people understood that in Britain and in is among the zionists and among the is among the zionists and among the is among the zionists and among the Arabs um but the British declared the Arabs um but the British declared the Arabs um but the British declared the balur Declaration or issued the balur balur Declaration or issued the balur balur Declaration or issued the balur Declaration not only because of Imperial Declaration not only because of Imperial Declaration not only because of Imperial self-interest and this is a what you're self-interest and this is a what you're self-interest and this is a what you're basically saying they had Imperial basically saying they had Imperial basically saying they had Imperial interests above for state which would interests above for state which would interests above for state which would protect the SE Canal from the East the protect the SE Canal from the East the protect the SE Canal from the East the British also were motivated by idealism British also were motivated by idealism British also were motivated by idealism and this incidentally is how balur and this incidentally is how balur and this incidentally is how balur described the reasoning behind issuing described the reasoning behind issuing described the reasoning behind issuing the Declaration and he said the West the Declaration and he said the West the Declaration and he said the West Western World Western Christendom owes Western World Western Christendom owes Western World Western Christendom owes the Jews a great debt both for giving a the Jews a great debt both for giving a the Jews a great debt both for giving a the the world and the West if you like a the the world and the West if you like a the the world and the West if you like a values social values as as embodied in values social values as as embodied in values social values as as embodied in the the Bible um social justice and all the the Bible um social justice and all the the Bible um social justice and all sorts of other things and the Christian sorts of other things and the Christian sorts of other things and the Christian world owes the Jews because it world owes the Jews because it world owes the Jews because it persecuted them for 2,000 years this persecuted them for 2,000 years this persecuted them for 2,000 years this debt we're now beginning to repay with debt we're now beginning to repay with debt we're now beginning to repay with the 1917 declaration favoring Zionism

the 1917 declaration favoring Zionism the 1917 declaration favoring Zionism but it's also remembering that the Jews but it's also remembering that the Jews but it's also remembering that the Jews um weren't proxies or attached to the um weren't proxies or attached to the um weren't proxies or attached to the British um Imperial Endeavor they were British um Imperial Endeavor they were British um Imperial Endeavor they were happy to receive British support in 1917 happy to receive British support in 1917 happy to receive British support in 1917 and then subsequently when the British and then subsequently when the British and then subsequently when the British ruled Palestine for 20 30 years um but ruled Palestine for 20 30 years um but ruled Palestine for 20 30 years um but they weren't part of the British they weren't part of the British they weren't part of the British Imperial design or Mission they wanted a Imperial design or Mission they wanted a Imperial design or Mission they wanted a state for themselves the Jews happy to state for themselves the Jews happy to state for themselves the Jews happy to have the British support them happy have the British support them happy have the British support them happy today to have the Americans support his today to have the Americans support his today to have the Americans support his Isel but it's not because we're stoes or Isel but it's not because we're stoes or Isel but it's not because we're stoes or extensions of American Imperial extensions of American Imperial extensions of American Imperial interests um the British incidentally interests um the British incidentally interests um the British incidentally always described in Arab narratives of always described in Arab narratives of always described in Arab narratives of propaganda as consistent supporters of propaganda as consistent supporters of propaganda as consistent supporters of Zionism they weren't the first British Zionism they weren't the first British Zionism they weren't the first British rulers in Palestine 1917 1920 Herbert rulers in Palestine 1917 1920 Herbert rulers in Palestine 1917 1920 Herbert Samuel no before Herbert Samuel Samuel Samuel no before Herbert Samuel Samuel Samuel no before Herbert Samuel Samuel came in 1920 the British ruled there for came in 1920 the British ruled there for came in 1920 the British ruled there for three years previously and most of the three years previously and most of the three years previously and most of the leaders the British generals and so on leaders the British generals and so on leaders the British generals and so on who were in Palestine were anti-zionist who were in Palestine were anti-zionist who were in Palestine were anti-zionist and subsequently in the 20s and 30s the and subsequently in the 20s and 30s the and subsequently in the 20s and 30s the British occasionally um curbed Zionist British occasionally um curbed Zionist British occasionally um curbed Zionist immigration to Palestine and in 1939 immigration to Palestine and in 1939 immigration to Palestine and in 1939 switched horses and supported the Arab switched horses and supported the Arab switched horses and supported the Arab national movement and not Zionism they national movement and not Zionism they national movement and not Zionism they turned anti-zionist and basically said turned anti-zionist and basically said turned anti-zionist and basically said you Arabs will rule Palestine within the you Arabs will rule Palestine within the you Arabs will rule Palestine within the next 10 years this is what we're giving next 10 years this is what we're giving next 10 years this is what we're giving you by limiting Jewish immigration to you by limiting Jewish immigration to you by limiting Jewish immigration to Palestine a but the Arabs didn't Palestine a but the Arabs didn't Palestine a but the Arabs didn't actually understand what they were being actually understand what they were being actually understand what they were being given on a silver platter husseini again

given on a silver platter husseini again given on a silver platter husseini again and he said no no we can't accept the and he said no no we can't accept the and he said no no we can't accept the British white paper of May 1939 which British white paper of May 1939 which British white paper of May 1939 which had given the Arabs everything they had given the Arabs everything they had given the Arabs everything they wanted basically self-determination in wanted basically self-determination in wanted basically self-determination in an Arab majority state so what I'm an Arab majority state so what I'm an Arab majority state so what I'm saying is the British a at some point saying is the British a at some point saying is the British a at some point did support the Zionist Enterprise but did support the Zionist Enterprise but did support the Zionist Enterprise but that other points were less consistent that other points were less consistent that other points were less consistent in the support and in 1939 until 1948 in the support and in 1939 until 1948 in the support and in 1939 until 1948 when they didn't vote even for partition when they didn't vote even for partition when they didn't vote even for partition for Jewish statehood in Palestine in the for Jewish statehood in Palestine in the for Jewish statehood in Palestine in the UN resolution they didn't support Zion UN resolution they didn't support Zion UN resolution they didn't support Zion during the last decade of the Mandate during the last decade of the Mandate during the last decade of the Mandate it's worth remembering that I I'd like it's worth remembering that I I'd like it's worth remembering that I I'd like to respond to that I mean speaking of to respond to that I mean speaking of to respond to that I mean speaking of propaganda um I find it simply propaganda um I find it simply propaganda um I find it simply impossible to accept um that balfor who impossible to accept um that balfor who impossible to accept um that balfor who as British prime minister in 1905 was a as British prime minister in 1905 was a as British prime minister in 1905 was a chief sponsor of the aliens act which chief sponsor of the aliens act which chief sponsor of the aliens act which was specifically he changed his mind was specifically he changed his mind was specifically he changed his mind which was specifically designed keep which was specifically designed keep which was specifically designed keep persecuted Eastern European Jews out of persecuted Eastern European Jews out of persecuted Eastern European Jews out of the streets of of the UK and who was the streets of of the UK and who was the streets of of the UK and who was denounced as an anti-semite by the denounced as an anti-semite by the denounced as an anti-semite by the entire British Jewish entire British Jewish entire British Jewish establishment a decade later all of a establishment a decade later all of a establishment a decade later all of a sudden changed his mind this people sudden changed his mind this people sudden changed his mind this people Chang their minds but when the when when Chang their minds but when the when when Chang their minds but when the when when when the changing of the mind just when the changing of the mind just when the changing of the mind just coincidentally happens to coincidentally happens to coincidentally happens to coincide um with the British Imperial coincide um with the British Imperial coincide um with the British Imperial interest I think perhaps the interest I think perhaps the interest I think perhaps the transformation is is is a little more

transformation is is is a little more transformation is is is a little more superficial than he's being given credit superficial than he's being given credit superficial than he's being given credit for it it was clearly a British Imperial for it it was clearly a British Imperial for it it was clearly a British Imperial Venture and if there had been no threat Venture and if there had been no threat Venture and if there had been no threat to the Su Canal during World War to the Su Canal during World War to the Su Canal during World War I regardless of what balur would have I regardless of what balur would have I regardless of what balur would have thought about the Jews and their thought about the Jews and their thought about the Jews and their contribution to um history and their and contribution to um history and their and contribution to um history and their and their persecution and so on there would their persecution and so on there would their persecution and so on there would have been no B for declaration ask real have been no B for declaration ask real have been no B for declaration ask real quick as a question on that why did the quick as a question on that why did the quick as a question on that why did the British ever cap immigration then from British ever cap immigration then from British ever cap immigration then from Jews to that area at all well we're Jews to that area at all well we're Jews to that area at all well we're talking now talking now talking now about sure but I'm saying that if it was about sure but I'm saying that if it was about sure but I'm saying that if it was if the whole goal was just to be an if the whole goal was just to be an if the whole goal was just to be an imperialist project like there were imperialist project like there were imperialist project like there were terrorist attacks from Jewish uh yes but terrorist attacks from Jewish uh yes but terrorist attacks from Jewish uh yes but you're you're I'll answer you0 yeah and you're you're I'll answer you0 yeah and you're you're I'll answer you0 yeah and we're talking now about 1917 and and as we're talking now about 1917 and and as we're talking now about 1917 and and as I mentioned earlier I don't think the I mentioned earlier I don't think the I mentioned earlier I don't think the British had a Jewish state in mind British had a Jewish state in mind British had a Jewish state in mind that's why they used the term Jewish that's why they used the term Jewish that's why they used the term Jewish National home I think what they wanted National home I think what they wanted National home I think what they wanted was a British protectorate loyal to and was a British protectorate loyal to and was a British protectorate loyal to and dependent upon uh the British I think an dependent upon uh the British I think an dependent upon uh the British I think an outstanding um review of British policy outstanding um review of British policy outstanding um review of British policy towards these issues during the Mandate towards these issues during the Mandate towards these issues during the Mandate has been done by Martin Bunton of the has been done by Martin Bunton of the has been done by Martin Bunton of the University of Victoria and and he University of Victoria and and he University of Victoria and and he basically makes the argument um that basically makes the argument um that basically makes the argument um that once the British realized the mess they once the British realized the mess they once the British realized the mess they were in certainly by the late 20s early were in certainly by the late 20s early were in certainly by the late 20s early 30s they they recognized 30s they they recognized 30s they they recognized these the mess they were in the IR these the mess they were in the IR these the mess they were in the IR ilable differences and basically pursued

ilable differences and basically pursued ilable differences and basically pursued a policy of just muddling on um and and a policy of just muddling on um and and a policy of just muddling on um and and um and muddling on in the context of um and muddling on in the context of um and muddling on in the context of British rule in British rule in British rule in Palestine um whose overall purpose was Palestine um whose overall purpose was Palestine um whose overall purpose was to serve um for the development of of to serve um for the development of of to serve um for the development of of Zionist institutions yeshua's economy Zionist institutions yeshua's economy Zionist institutions yeshua's economy and so on meant even if the British uh and so on meant even if the British uh and so on meant even if the British uh were not self-consciously doing this um were not self-consciously doing this um were not self-consciously doing this um preparing the ground work for the preparing the ground work for the preparing the ground work for the eventual establishment of a Jewish State eventual establishment of a Jewish State eventual establishment of a Jewish State I don't know if that answers your I don't know if that answers your I don't know if that answers your question except they did turn anti question except they did turn anti question except they did turn anti Zionist in 1939 yes of course Zionist in 1939 yes of course Zionist in 1939 yes of course Main and maintain that Zionist no no Main and maintain that Zionist no no Main and maintain that Zionist no no before they were being shot off but before they were being shot off but before they were being shot off but maintain that anti-zionist posture until maintain that anti-zionist posture until maintain that anti-zionist posture until 1948 okay and and if I may just also one 1948 okay and and if I may just also one 1948 okay and and if I may just also one point um you mention ha hus during were point um you mention ha hus during were point um you mention ha hus during were entirely legitimate um but what I but entirely legitimate um but what I but entirely legitimate um but what I but what I would also point point out is what I would also point point out is what I would also point point out is that you had a Zionist organization um that you had a Zionist organization um that you had a Zionist organization um the Ley 300 people more 300 people one the Ley 300 people more 300 people one the Ley 300 people more 300 people one of whom happened to become an Israeli of whom happened to become an Israeli of whom happened to become an Israeli Prime Minister and Israeli foreign Prime Minister and Israeli foreign Prime Minister and Israeli foreign minister speaker of Israeli Parliament minister speaker of Israeli Parliament minister speaker of Israeli Parliament um maybe you should give his name Yak um maybe you should give his name Yak um maybe you should give his name Yak Shamir uh proposing an alliance with Shamir uh proposing an alliance with Shamir uh proposing an alliance with Nazi Germany in 1941 Shamir propos well Nazi Germany in 1941 Shamir propos well Nazi Germany in 1941 Shamir propos well no the Ley proposed some people in the no the Ley proposed some people in the no the Ley proposed some people in the Lei proposed of which hamir was a Lei proposed of which hamir was a Lei proposed of which hamir was a prominent ring no no okay well if he's a prominent ring no no okay well if he's a prominent ring no no okay well if he's a red

uh was an unimportant organization in uh was an unimportant organization in the yesu 300 people versus 30,000 belong the yesu 300 people versus 30,000 belong the yesu 300 people versus 30,000 belong to the hag so it was not a very to the hag so it was not a very to the hag so it was not a very important organization it's true before important organization it's true before important organization it's true before the Holocaust actually began they wanted the Holocaust actually began they wanted the Holocaust actually began they wanted allies against the British where they allies against the British where they allies against the British where they could find Talking could find Talking could find Talking 1941 1944 41 from what I recall 1940 1941 1944 41 from what I recall 1940 1941 1944 41 from what I recall 1940 they were they approached the the German they were they approached the the German they were they approached the the German Emissary in or some and and and if I may Emissary in or some and and and if I may Emissary in or some and and and if I may proposed an alliance with Nazi Germany proposed an alliance with Nazi Germany proposed an alliance with Nazi Germany on what the Le he described as on the on what the Le he described as on the on what the Le he described as on the basis of shared ideolog shared basis of shared ideolog shared basis of shared ideolog shared ideological princip sh ideolog well they ideological princip sh ideolog well they ideological princip sh ideolog well they said they did they they they reved why said they did they they they reved why said they did they they they reved why are you doing these things of are you doing these things of are you doing these things of course state but you know you know what course state but you know you know what course state but you know you know what the statement said on the basis of a the statement said on the basis of a the statement said on the basis of a shared ideology why do you say no do you shared ideology why do you say no do you shared ideology why do you say no do you think that the wait the people were think that the wait the people were think that the wait the people were Nazis is that what you're saying I said Nazis is that what you're saying I said Nazis is that what you're saying I said no are you saying that forget statements no are you saying that forget statements no are you saying that forget statements you like to quote things but were they you like to quote things but were they you like to quote things but were they were they Naz were the were the Lei were they Naz were the were the Lei were they Naz were the were the Lei Nazis that's what I'm asking what did he Nazis that's what I'm asking what did he Nazis that's what I'm asking what did he some did he say that the basis of the some did he say that the basis of the some did he say that the basis of the PCT was their agreement on ideology PCT was their agreement on ideology PCT was their agreement on ideology there wasn't any pack they suggested there wasn't any pack they suggested there wasn't any pack they suggested they proposed an agreement right and they proposed an agreement right and they proposed an agreement right and what did the agreement say they wanted what did the agreement say they wanted what did the agreement say they wanted arms against the British that's what arms against the British that's what arms against the British that's what they wanted well that's what wanted also they wanted well that's what wanted also they wanted well that's what wanted also that's that's that's what people didn't work in in helping what people didn't work in in helping what people didn't work in in helping the Nazi regime I me what the IRA wanted the Nazi regime I me what the IRA wanted the Nazi regime I me what the IRA wanted also no but this is what husseini did also no but this is what husseini did also no but this is what husseini did you know that he was an anti-site you've

you know that he was an anti-site you've you know that he was an anti-site you've probably read some of his Works he probably read some of his Works he probably read some of his Works he wasn't just anti-british he was also wasn't just anti-british he was also wasn't just anti-british he was also anti-semitic and he had a common ground anti-semitic and he had a common ground anti-semitic and he had a common ground with Hitler simp I think we can agree with Hitler simp I think we can agree with Hitler simp I think we can agree not every anti-semite is a hitlerite I not every anti-semite is a hitlerite I not every anti-semite is a hitlerite I think we that part he literally worked think we that part he literally worked think we that part he literally worked with the Nazis to recruit people he with the Nazis to recruit people he with the Nazis to recruit people he wasn't just a guy he was an absolutely wasn't just a guy he was an absolutely wasn't just a guy he was an absolutely revolting disgusting human revolting disgusting human revolting disgusting human being but the problem is you're saying being but the problem is you're saying being but the problem is you're saying was influent you're saying the I I don't was influent you're saying the I I don't was influent you're saying the I I don't even understand of all the crimes you even understand of all the crimes you even understand of all the crimes you want to ascribe to the Palestinian want to ascribe to the Palestinian want to ascribe to the Palestinian people trying to blame them directly people trying to blame them directly people trying to blame them directly indirectly indirectly or indirectly indirectly indirectly or indirectly indirectly indirectly or indirectly three times a moved for the Nazi three times a moved for the Nazi three times a moved for the Nazi Holocaust is completely lunatic on the Holocaust is completely lunatic on the Holocaust is completely lunatic on the wait there's not a he's not blaming them wait there's not a he's not blaming them wait there's not a he's not blaming them for the Holocaust he's saying that from for the Holocaust he's saying that from for the Holocaust he's saying that from the perspective wait no he's saying that the perspective wait no he's saying that the perspective wait no he's saying that from the perspective of Jews in the from the perspective of Jews in the from the perspective of Jews in the region Palestinians would have been part region Palestinians would have been part region Palestinians would have been part of the region that is exactly he I've of the region that is exactly he I've of the region that is exactly he I've him understand him here believe me I'm a him understand him here believe me I'm a him understand him here believe me I'm a lot more literate than you Mr Bell I'm lot more literate than you Mr Bell I'm lot more literate than you Mr Bell I'm going believe the guy that wrote you going believe the guy that wrote you going believe the guy that wrote you read the Wikipedia say I read Hebrew and read the Wikipedia say I read Hebrew and read the Wikipedia say I read Hebrew and you call yourself an Israeli historian you call yourself an Israeli historian you call yourself an Israeli historian all on different grounds okay if I can all on different grounds okay if I can all on different grounds okay if I can just respond no no I'm just saying that just respond no no I'm just saying that just respond no no I'm just saying that the there were two there were two tricks the there were two there were two tricks the there were two there were two tricks there were that's fine there were two there were that's fine there were two there were that's fine there were two tricks that are being played here that I tricks that are being played here that I tricks that are being played here that I think is interesting one is you guys think is interesting one is you guys think is interesting one is you guys claim that the Ley was trying to forge claim that the Ley was trying to forge claim that the Ley was trying to forge an alliance with Nazi Germany because of an alliance with Nazi Germany because of an alliance with Nazi Germany because of a shared ideology that's what they said a shared ideology that's what they said a shared ideology that's what they said yeah but hold on no no no no wait wait yeah but hold on no no no no wait wait yeah but hold on no no no no wait wait no no it's about what you said you no no it's about what you said you no no it's about what you said you brought that up to imply that Zionism

brought that up to imply that Zionism brought that up to imply that Zionism must be inexorably linked I'm sorry no must be inexorably linked I'm sorry no must be inexorably linked I'm sorry no you're putting words in my mouth okay you're putting words in my mouth okay you're putting words in my mouth okay wait well then what was the purpose of wait well then what was the purpose of wait well then what was the purpose of of saying that the Lei claimed that they of saying that the Lei claimed that they of saying that the Lei claimed that they the Lei who were small group of people the Lei who were small group of people the Lei who were small group of people that were reviled by many in Israel not that were reviled by many in Israel not that were reviled by many in Israel not many by everybody practically they were many by everybody practically they were many by everybody practically they were called terrorist theist movement called called terrorist theist movement called called terrorist theist movement called them them them terrorists and hunted them and terrorists and hunted them and terrorists and hunted them and called himself a terrorist they were so called himself a terrorist they were so called himself a terrorist they were so irrelevant that their leader ended up irrelevant that their leader ended up irrelevant that their leader ended up being kicked upstairs to the leader of being kicked upstairs to the leader of being kicked upstairs to the leader of theel Parliament that's Israeli years to theel Parliament that's Israeli years to theel Parliament that's Israeli years to Israeli foreign minister and bean was Israeli foreign minister and bean was Israeli foreign minister and bean was also yes you want you want to also yes you want you want to also yes you want you want to characterize him as irrelevant as well characterize him as irrelevant as well characterize him as irrelevant as well go ahead no characteriz him as go ahead no characteriz him as go ahead no characteriz him as irrelevant or irrelevant based on what irrelevant or irrelevant based on what irrelevant or irrelevant based on what happens decades later the timeline happens decades later the timeline happens decades later the timeline matters well the question is what is the matters well the question is what is the matters well the question is what is the point of saying that the Le he tried to point of saying that the Le he tried to point of saying that the Le he tried to forge an relevant it's bringing up the muy of an relevant it's bringing up the muy of Jerusalem and trying to blame the Jerusalem and trying to blame the Jerusalem and trying to blame the Holocaust indect hoca the MU was the Holocaust indect hoca the MU was the Holocaust indect hoca the MU was the leader of the Palestine Arab national leader of the Palestine Arab national leader of the Palestine Arab national movement was 300 and he had as much to movement was 300 and he had as much to movement was 300 and he had as much to do with the Nazi Holocaust as I did no do with the Nazi Holocaust as I did no do with the Nazi Holocaust as I did no he recruited people for the SS how can he recruited people for the SS how can he recruited people for the SS how can you get away from that no he you get away from that no he you get away from that no he recruited he recruited soldiers in the recruited he recruited soldiers in the recruited he recruited soldiers in the balans mostly kavars which was balans mostly kavars which was balans mostly kavars which was disgusting I have no doubt about that disgusting I have no doubt about that disgusting I have no doubt about that but he had one wrote foreign minister but he had one wrote foreign minister but he had one wrote foreign minister don't let the Jews out don't let the Jews out don't let the Jews out I for minali forign Minister received I for minali forign Minister received I for minali forign Minister received letters fromus during during the letters fromus during during the letters fromus during during the Holocaust during the Holocaust don't let

Holocaust during the Holocaust don't let Holocaust during the Holocaust don't let the Jews out don't let the Jews out I'm the Jews out don't let the Jews out I'm the Jews out don't let the Jews out I'm not saying he was a major architect not saying he was a major architect not saying he was a major architect minor but if we're agreed if we're minor but if we're agreed if we're minor but if we're agreed if we're agreed that Haj am Al husseini the Muti agreed that Haj am Al husseini the Muti agreed that Haj am Al husseini the Muti of of of Jerusalem collaborated with the Nazis Jerusalem collaborated with the Nazis Jerusalem collaborated with the Nazis during World War II and actively sought during World War II and actively sought during World War II and actively sought their sponsorship their sponsorship their sponsorship why is it irrelevant and probably wanted why is it irrelevant and probably wanted why is it irrelevant and probably wanted the destruction of European jury he the destruction of European jury he the destruction of European jury he probably wanted a lot of things okay probably wanted a lot of things okay probably wanted a lot of things okay okay if that's relevant why is it okay if that's relevant why is it okay if that's relevant why is it irrelevant that a prime minister of irrelevant that a prime minister of irrelevant that a prime minister of Israel not prime minister in 1940 41 he Israel not prime minister in 1940 41 he Israel not prime minister in 1940 41 he wasn't prime minister of Israel he was a wasn't prime minister of Israel he was a wasn't prime minister of Israel he was a leader of a very small terrorist group leader of a very small terrorist group leader of a very small terrorist group denounced as terrorist by the main of denounced as terrorist by the main of denounced as terrorist by the main of Zion do you consider it irrelevant that Zion do you consider it irrelevant that Zion do you consider it irrelevant that many years ago Mahmud Abbas wrote a many years ago Mahmud Abbas wrote a many years ago Mahmud Abbas wrote a doctoral thesis which is basically about doctoral thesis which is basically about doctoral thesis which is basically about mmas but I don't didn't bring it up mmas but I don't didn't bring it up mmas but I don't didn't bring it up you're the one who's bringing it you're the one who's bringing it you're the one who's bringing it up beling the Holocaust that's what up beling the Holocaust that's what up beling the Holocaust that's what you're saying the president president of you're saying the president president of you're saying the president president of the Palestinian National Authority the Palestinian National Authority the Palestinian National Authority belittle the Holocaust said it didn't belittle the Holocaust said it didn't belittle the Holocaust said it didn't happen or only a few Jews died that's a happen or only a few Jews died that's a happen or only a few Jews died that's a fair characterization of but I didn't fair characterization of but I didn't fair characterization of but I didn't bring it up I brought it up yeah okay bring it up I brought it up yeah okay bring it up I brought it up yeah okay because my question is then why is because my question is then why is because my question is then why is shamir's antecedence irrelevant he he shamir's antecedence irrelevant he he shamir's antecedence irrelevant he he was a terrorist leader of a very small was a terrorist leader of a very small was a terrorist leader of a very small marginal marginal marginal group was the head of the movement at group was the head of the movement at group was the head of the movement at the time also the the point of the time also the the point of the time also the the point of bring the point of bring up husseini bring the point of bring up husseini bring the point of bring up husseini stuff wasn't to say that he was a great stuff wasn't to say that he was a great stuff wasn't to say that he was a great further of the Holocaust it's that he further of the Holocaust it's that he further of the Holocaust it's that he might have been a great further in the

might have been a great further in the might have been a great further in the prevention of Jews fleeing to go to prevention of Jews fleeing to go to prevention of Jews fleeing to go to Palestine to escape the Holocaust that Palestine to escape the Holocaust that Palestine to escape the Holocaust that that was the plan that and I explained that was the plan that and I explained that was the plan that and I explained why I think um that's that's not an why I think um that's that's not an why I think um that's that's not an entirely um accurate characterization entirely um accurate characterization entirely um accurate characterization but and then I wanted to make another but and then I wanted to make another but and then I wanted to make another point if it's legitimate to bring up his point if it's legitimate to bring up his point if it's legitimate to bring up his during World War II why is it during World War II why is it during World War II why is it illegitimate to bring up a man who would illegitimate to bring up a man who would illegitimate to bring up a man who would become Israel's speaker of parliament become Israel's speaker of parliament become Israel's speaker of parliament foreign minister 4 years why is it and foreign minister 4 years why is it and foreign minister 4 years why is it and and also he was young terrorist and was and also he was young terrorist and was and also he was young terrorist and was also responsible for the murder of of also responsible for the murder of of also responsible for the murder of of the United nations's First International the United nations's First International the United nations's First International Envoy bernotti foli bernotti why is all Envoy bernotti foli bernotti why is all Envoy bernotti foli bernotti why is all that irrelevant I any understand I think that irrelevant I any understand I think that irrelevant I any understand I think that the reason why he was brought up that the reason why he was brought up that the reason why he was brought up was because Jewish people at the in this was because Jewish people at the in this was because Jewish people at the in this time period would have viewed it as um time period would have viewed it as um time period would have viewed it as um there's a prevention of Jews leaving there's a prevention of Jews leaving there's a prevention of Jews leaving Europe because of the Palestinians Europe because of the Palestinians Europe because of the Palestinians pressuring the British to put a curb pressuring the British to put a curb pressuring the British to put a curb that 75,000 immigration limit yes but that 75,000 immigration limit yes but that 75,000 immigration limit yes but it's not about like it's not about them it's not about like it's not about them it's not about like it's not about them furthering the Holocaust or being an furthering the Holocaust or being an furthering the Holocaust or being an architect major minor play in the architect major minor play in the architect major minor play in the Holocaust was a major player in that Holocaust was a major player in that Holocaust was a major player in that region so Morris was spe made the region so Morris was spe made the region so Morris was spe made the specific claim that the Palestinians specific claim that the Palestinians specific claim that the Palestinians played an indirect role in the Holocaust played an indirect role in the Holocaust played an indirect role in the Holocaust the indirect role would have been the the indirect role would have been the the indirect role would have been the prevention of people escaping from yes prevention of people escaping from yes prevention of people escaping from yes Europe to response to that is um uh Europe to response to that is um uh Europe to response to that is um uh first of all I I disagree with that first of all I I disagree with that first of all I I disagree with that characterization but second of all how characterization but second of all how characterization but second of all how can you disagree with that they can you disagree with that they can you disagree with that they prevented they forced the British to prevented they forced the British to prevented they forced the British to prevent immigration of Jews from Europe

prevent immigration of Jews from Europe prevent immigration of Jews from Europe and reaching safe Shores in Palestine and reaching safe Shores in Palestine and reaching safe Shores in Palestine that's what they did and they knew that that's what they did and they knew that that's what they did and they knew that the Jew were being persecuted in Europe the Jew were being persecuted in Europe the Jew were being persecuted in Europe was Palestine the only spot of land on was Palestine the only spot of land on was Palestine the only spot of land on Earth yes basically that was the problem Earth yes basically that was the problem Earth yes basically that was the problem the Jews couldn't immigrate about what the Jews couldn't immigrate about what the Jews couldn't immigrate about what about your great friends in Britain The about your great friends in Britain The about your great friends in Britain The Architects of of the Bal for DEC the Architects of of the Bal for DEC the Architects of of the Bal for DEC the late late late 1930 wer happy to take in Jews and the 1930 wer happy to take in Jews and the 1930 wer happy to take in Jews and the Americans weren't happy to take Jews why Americans weren't happy to take Jews why Americans weren't happy to take Jews why and why are Palestinians who were not and why are Palestinians who were not and why are Palestinians who were not Europeans who had zero role in the rise Europeans who had zero role in the rise Europeans who had zero role in the rise of Nazism who had no relation to any of of Nazism who had no relation to any of of Nazism who had no relation to any of this why are they somehow uniquely this why are they somehow uniquely this why are they somehow uniquely responsible for what happened in Europe responsible for what happened in Europe responsible for what happened in Europe to close the only safe haven for Jews to close the only safe haven for Jews to close the only safe haven for Jews that's oh really the United States that's oh really the United States that's oh really the United States wasn't a say a potential St Safe Haven wasn't a say a potential St Safe Haven wasn't a say a potential St Safe Haven the only one was Palestine at the the the only one was Palestine at the the the only one was Palestine at the the United States had no r United States had no r United States had no r room to Pacific for Jews it did have room to Pacific for Jews it did have room to Pacific for Jews it did have room but it didn't want that wasn't the room but it didn't want that wasn't the room but it didn't want that wasn't the only Safe Haven this should you be only Safe Haven this should you be only Safe Haven this should you be focusing your America should be blamed focusing your America should be blamed focusing your America should be blamed for not letting Jews in during the 30s for not letting Jews in during the 30s for not letting Jews in during the 30s are blam but nobody blames them for the are blam but nobody blames them for the are blam but nobody blames them for the Holocaust well indirect indirectly I've Holocaust well indirect indirectly I've Holocaust well indirect indirectly I've never heard it said that Franklin never heard it said that Franklin never heard it said that Franklin delanor Roosevelt was indirectly delanor Roosevelt was indirectly delanor Roosevelt was indirectly responsible for the Holocaust I never responsible for the Holocaust I never responsible for the Holocaust I never heard that now maybe it's in Israeli heard that now maybe it's in Israeli heard that now maybe it's in Israeli literature because the Israelis have literature because the Israelis have literature because the Israelis have gone mad you're yes your prime minister gone mad you're yes your prime minister gone mad you're yes your prime minister said the whole idea of the gas Chambers said the whole idea of the gas Chambers said the whole idea of the gas Chambers came from the Muti of Jerusalem that's came from the Muti of Jerusalem that's came from the Muti of Jerusalem that's nonsense we all know non but we also nonsense we all know non but we also nonsense we all know non but we also know that nety nany say Netanyahu says

know that nety nany say Netanyahu says know that nety nany say Netanyahu says so many things which are AB happens to so many things which are AB happens to so many things which are AB happens to be the long serving prime minister of be the long serving prime minister of be the long serving prime minister of isra respons you're not responsible for isra respons you're not responsible for isra respons you're not responsible for them but it is relevant that he is a them but it is relevant that he is a them but it is relevant that he is a longest serving prime minister of Israel longest serving prime minister of Israel longest serving prime minister of Israel unfortunately it says something about unfortunately it says something about unfortunately it says something about the Israeli public I and he gets and he the Israeli public I and he gets and he the Israeli public I and he gets and he gets elected not despite such things but gets elected not despite such things but gets elected not despite such things but because he say his voters don't care because he say his voters don't care because he say his voters don't care aboutus or Hitler they know nothing aboutus or Hitler they know nothing aboutus or Hitler they know nothing about his voters right his Bas know about his voters right his Bas know about his voters right his Bas know nothing about know nothing about nothing about know nothing about nothing about know nothing about anything and he can say what he likes anything and he can say what he likes anything and he can say what he likes and they'll say yes so they don't care and they'll say yes so they don't care and they'll say yes so they don't care if he says these things you may well be if he says these things you may well be if he says these things you may well be right but but but anyway not to beat a right but but but anyway not to beat a right but but but anyway not to beat a dead horse but I don't I I still don't dead horse but I don't I I still don't dead horse but I don't I I still don't understand dead horse right I I'll just understand dead horse right I I'll just understand dead horse right I I'll just conclude by saying I don't understand conclude by saying I don't understand conclude by saying I don't understand why the Muti of Jerusalem is relevant he why the Muti of Jerusalem is relevant he why the Muti of Jerusalem is relevant he is relevant he is relevant but the head is relevant he is relevant but the head is relevant he is relevant but the head Palestinian Shamir wasn't the head of Palestinian Shamir wasn't the head of Palestinian Shamir wasn't the head of the national movement he represented 100 the national movement he represented 100 the national movement he represented 100 or 200 or 300 gunmen who are considered or 200 or 300 gunmen who are considered or 200 or 300 gunmen who are considered terrorists by the Zionist movement at terrorists by the Zionist movement at terrorists by the Zionist movement at the time the fact that 30 years later he the time the fact that 30 years later he the time the fact that 30 years later he becomes prime minister that's the cirks becomes prime minister that's the cirks becomes prime minister that's the cirks of of history and of of history and of of history and hisus he was the head of the Palestine hisus he was the head of the Palestine hisus he was the head of the Palestine Arab national movement at the time Arab national movement at the time Arab national movement at the time anyway what can you do I think we're anyway what can you do I think we're anyway what can you do I think we're speaking past each other not I'm talking speaking past each other not I'm talking speaking past each other not I'm talking facts let's move to the modern day and facts let's move to the modern day and facts let's move to the modern day and we'll return to History Maybe 67 and we'll return to History Maybe 67 and we'll return to History Maybe 67 and other important moments but let's look other important moments but let's look other important moments but let's look to today in the recent months uh October to today in the recent months uh October to today in the recent months uh October 7th let me ask sort of a pointed 7th let me ask sort of a pointed 7th let me ask sort of a pointed question was October 7th attacks by question was October 7th attacks by question was October 7th attacks by Hamas on Israel Hamas on Israel Hamas on Israel genocidal was it wasn't an act of ethnic

genocidal was it wasn't an act of ethnic genocidal was it wasn't an act of ethnic cleansing just so we lay out the moral cleansing just so we lay out the moral cleansing just so we lay out the moral calculus that we are engaged in I don't calculus that we are engaged in I don't calculus that we are engaged in I don't maybe was the the problem the problem maybe was the the problem the problem maybe was the the problem the problem with October 7th is this the with October 7th is this the with October 7th is this the Hamas Hamas Hamas fighters who who um invaded Southern fighters who who um invaded Southern fighters who who um invaded Southern Israel um were sent ordered to murder Israel um were sent ordered to murder Israel um were sent ordered to murder rape and do all the nasty things that rape and do all the nasty things that rape and do all the nasty things that they did and they killed some 1200 they did and they killed some 1200 they did and they killed some 1200 Israelis that day and abducted um as we Israelis that day and abducted um as we Israelis that day and abducted um as we know something like 250 um civilian know something like 250 um civilian know something like 250 um civilian mostly civilians also some soldiers um mostly civilians also some soldiers um mostly civilians also some soldiers um took them back to Gaza dungeons in Gaza took them back to Gaza dungeons in Gaza took them back to Gaza dungeons in Gaza um but they were motivated not just by um but they were motivated not just by um but they were motivated not just by the words of their current leader in the the words of their current leader in the the words of their current leader in the Gaza Strip but by their ideology which Gaza Strip but by their ideology which Gaza Strip but by their ideology which is embedded in their Charter from 8 1988 is embedded in their Charter from 8 1988 is embedded in their Charter from 8 1988 if I remember correctly and that Charter if I remember correctly and that Charter if I remember correctly and that Charter is genocidal it says that the Jews must is genocidal it says that the Jews must is genocidal it says that the Jews must be eradicated basically from a the land be eradicated basically from a the land be eradicated basically from a the land of Israel from Palestine the Jews are of Israel from Palestine the Jews are of Israel from Palestine the Jews are described there as sons of apes and pigs described there as sons of apes and pigs described there as sons of apes and pigs H the Jews are a base people killers of H the Jews are a base people killers of H the Jews are a base people killers of prophets and they should not exist in prophets and they should not exist in prophets and they should not exist in Palestine it doesn't say that they NE Palestine it doesn't say that they NE Palestine it doesn't say that they NE neily should be murdered all around the neily should be murdered all around the neily should be murdered all around the world the Hamas Charter but certainly world the Hamas Charter but certainly world the Hamas Charter but certainly the Jews should be eliminated from the Jews should be eliminated from the Jews should be eliminated from Palestine and this is the driving Palestine and this is the driving Palestine and this is the driving ideology um behind the massacre of the ideology um behind the massacre of the ideology um behind the massacre of the Jews on October 7th which brought down Jews on October 7th which brought down Jews on October 7th which brought down on the Gaza Strip and I think with the

on the Gaza Strip and I think with the on the Gaza Strip and I think with the intention by the Kamas of the Israeli intention by the Kamas of the Israeli intention by the Kamas of the Israeli counter offensive because they knew that counter offensive because they knew that counter offensive because they knew that that counter offensive would result in that counter offensive would result in that counter offensive would result in many Palestinian dead because the the many Palestinian dead because the the many Palestinian dead because the the Hamas Fighters and their weaponry and so Hamas Fighters and their weaponry and so Hamas Fighters and their weaponry and so on were embedded in the population in on were embedded in the population in on were embedded in the population in Gaza and they hoped to benefit from this Gaza and they hoped to benefit from this Gaza and they hoped to benefit from this in the eyes of world public opinion as in the eyes of world public opinion as in the eyes of world public opinion as Israel chased these Hamas people and Israel chased these Hamas people and Israel chased these Hamas people and their ammunition dumps and so on and their ammunition dumps and so on and their ammunition dumps and so on and killed lots of Palestinian civilians in killed lots of Palestinian civilians in killed lots of Palestinian civilians in the process all of this was understood the process all of this was understood the process all of this was understood by sinir by the head of the Kamas and he by sinir by the head of the Kamas and he by sinir by the head of the Kamas and he strived for that but initially he wanted strived for that but initially he wanted strived for that but initially he wanted to kill as many Jews as he could a A in to kill as many Jews as he could a A in to kill as many Jews as he could a A in the Border areas around the Gaza Strip the Border areas around the Gaza Strip the Border areas around the Gaza Strip I'll respond directly to the points you I'll respond directly to the points you I'll respond directly to the points you made and then um I'll leave it to Norm made and then um I'll leave it to Norm made and then um I'll leave it to Norm to bring in the historical context that to bring in the historical context that to bring in the historical context that um Hamas Charter is from the '90s I um Hamas Charter is from the '90s I um Hamas Charter is from the '90s I think 1988 1988 so it's from the think 1988 1988 so it's from the think 1988 1988 so it's from the 80s um I think your characterization of 80s um I think your characterization of 80s um I think your characterization of that Charter as um anti-semitic is that Charter as um anti-semitic is that Charter as um anti-semitic is indisputable okay I think your um indisputable okay I think your um indisputable okay I think your um characterization of that Charter is characterization of that Charter is characterization of that Charter is genocidal is Off the Mark it's simplicit genocidal is Off the Mark it's simplicit genocidal is Off the Mark it's simplicit and more importantly that Charter has and more importantly that Charter has and more importantly that Charter has been superseded by a new Charter in fact been superseded by a new Charter in fact been superseded by a new Charter in fact has been well there is there is a there has been well there is there is a there has been well there is there is a there is no new Charter there is a explanation is no new Charter there is a explanation is no new Charter there is a explanation a a a statement 200 something 2018 supposedly

statement 200 something 2018 supposedly statement 200 something 2018 supposedly clarifying things which are in the clarifying things which are in the clarifying things which are in the charter but it doesn't actually step charter but it doesn't actually step charter but it doesn't actually step back from what the charter says back from what the charter says back from what the charter says eliminate Israel eliminate the Jews from eliminate Israel eliminate the Jews from eliminate Israel eliminate the Jews from the land of Israel in in 2018 the Hamas the land of Israel in in 2018 the Hamas the land of Israel in in 2018 the Hamas char if we look at the current version char if we look at the current version char if we look at the current version of the charter it's not a called the of the charter it's not a called the of the charter it's not a called the Char you're calling it a charter it Char you're calling it a charter it Char you're calling it a charter it wasn't the only thing called the charter wasn't the only thing called the charter wasn't the only thing called the charter is what was issued in 1988 by y himself is what was issued in 1988 by y himself is what was issued in 1988 by y himself anyway it makes it makes a clear anyway it makes it makes a clear anyway it makes it makes a clear distinction um between um Jews and distinction um between um Jews and distinction um between um Jews and zionists in 2018 now you can choose to zionists in 2018 now you can choose to zionists in 2018 now you can choose to dismiss it believe it it's sincere it's dismiss it believe it it's sincere it's dismiss it believe it it's sincere it's insincere uh whatever ins sincere is the insincere uh whatever ins sincere is the insincere uh whatever ins sincere is the probably the right word secondly I'm probably the right word secondly I'm probably the right word secondly I'm really unfamiliar um with fighters who really unfamiliar um with fighters who really unfamiliar um with fighters who consult the these kinds of documents uh consult the these kinds of documents uh consult the these kinds of documents uh they go ucation system in the they go ucation system in the they go ucation system in the kindergarten they're told kill the Jews kindergarten they're told kill the Jews kindergarten they're told kill the Jews they they practice with make believe they they practice with make believe they they practice with make believe guns and uniforms when they're 5 years guns and uniforms when they're 5 years guns and uniforms when they're 5 years old in the kindergartens of theas at the old in the kindergartens of theas at the old in the kindergartens of theas at the instruction of the commissioner general instruction of the commissioner general instruction of the commissioner general of unra right I didn't say that I said of unra right I didn't say that I said of unra right I didn't say that I said the Kamas has kindergartens and summer the Kamas has kindergartens and summer the Kamas has kindergartens and summer camps in which they train to kill Jews camps in which they train to kill Jews camps in which they train to kill Jews children five and six secondly you keep children five and six secondly you keep children five and six secondly you keep you keep saying Jews um to which I would you keep saying Jews um to which I would you keep saying Jews um to which I would respond the word Jews to which I would respond the word Jews to which I would respond the word Jews to which I would respond that Hamas does not have a respond that Hamas does not have a respond that Hamas does not have a record of deliberately targeting Jews record of deliberately targeting Jews record of deliberately targeting Jews who are not Israelis and in fact it also who are not Israelis and in fact it also who are not Israelis and in fact it also doesn't have a record of deliberately doesn't have a record of deliberately doesn't have a record of deliberately targeting either Jews or Israelis targeting either Jews or Israelis targeting either Jews or Israelis outside Israel and Palestine so you know outside Israel and Palestine so you know outside Israel and Palestine so you know all this talk of um unlike theah which

all this talk of um unlike theah which all this talk of um unlike theah which has t Ted Jews outside we're talking has t Ted Jews outside we're talking has t Ted Jews outside we're talking we're talking about October 7th in Hamas we're talking about October 7th in Hamas we're talking about October 7th in Hamas if you'd also like to speak about hasb if you'd also like to speak about hasb if you'd also like to speak about hasb let's let's get to that separately if let's let's get to that separately if let's let's get to that separately if you if you don't mind um so again um you if you don't mind um so again um you if you don't mind um so again um genocidal genocidal genocidal well if if that term is going to be well if if that term is going to be well if if that term is going to be discussed my first response would be discussed my first response would be discussed my first response would be let's talk about potentially genocidal let's talk about potentially genocidal let's talk about potentially genocidal actions against Israelis rather than actions against Israelis rather than actions against Israelis rather than against Jews for the reasons that I just against Jews for the reasons that I just against Jews for the reasons that I just mentioned and again I find this constant mentioned and again I find this constant mentioned and again I find this constant conflation of of of of Jews Israel conflation of of of of Jews Israel conflation of of of of Jews Israel Zionism to be a bit disturbing secondly Zionism to be a bit disturbing secondly Zionism to be a bit disturbing secondly I think um there are uh quite a few I think um there are uh quite a few I think um there are uh quite a few indications in the factual record that indications in the factual record that indications in the factual record that raise serious raise serious raise serious questions about um the accusations of questions about um the accusations of questions about um the accusations of the genocidal intent and and genocidal the genocidal intent and and genocidal the genocidal intent and and genocidal practice of what happened on October 7th practice of what happened on October 7th practice of what happened on October 7th and my final point would be I don't I and my final point would be I don't I and my final point would be I don't I don't think I should take your your word don't think I should take your your word don't think I should take your your word for it I don't think you should take my for it I don't think you should take my for it I don't think you should take my word for it I think what we need here is word for it I think what we need here is word for it I think what we need here is a proper independent International a proper independent International a proper independent International investigation and the reason we need investigation and the reason we need investigation and the reason we need that of genocide during this conflict that of genocide during this conflict that of genocide during this conflict whether by uh Palestinians on October whether by uh Palestinians on October whether by uh Palestinians on October 7th or Israel thereafter and the reason 7th or Israel thereafter and the reason 7th or Israel thereafter and the reason that we need such an investigation is that we need such an investigation is that we need such an investigation is because Hamas is there won't be any because Hamas is there won't be any because Hamas is there won't be any hearings on what Hamas did on October

hearings on what Hamas did on October hearings on what Hamas did on October 7th at the international court of 7th at the international court of 7th at the international court of justice um because the International justice um because the International justice um because the International Convention the prevention and Punishment Convention the prevention and Punishment Convention the prevention and Punishment of the crime of genocide Deals Only with of the crime of genocide Deals Only with of the crime of genocide Deals Only with with States and not with movements I with States and not with movements I with States and not with movements I think the international criminal court think the international criminal court think the international criminal court and specifically its current prosecutor and specifically its current prosecutor and specifically its current prosecutor Kim Khan lacks any and all credibility Kim Khan lacks any and all credibility Kim Khan lacks any and all credibility he's and been an absolute failure at his he's and been an absolute failure at his he's and been an absolute failure at his job he's just been sitting on his job he's just been sitting on his job he's just been sitting on his backside for years on this file and I backside for years on this file and I backside for years on this file and I think um uh I would point out that Hamas think um uh I would point out that Hamas think um uh I would point out that Hamas has called for independent has called for independent has called for independent investigations of all these allegations investigations of all these allegations investigations of all these allegations Israel has categorically rejected any Israel has categorically rejected any Israel has categorically rejected any International investigation of course International investigation of course International investigation of course fully supported by the United States um fully supported by the United States um fully supported by the United States um and I and I think what is required is to and I and I think what is required is to and I and I think what is required is to have credible investigations of these have credible investigations of these have credible investigations of these things because I don't think you're things because I don't think you're things because I don't think you're going to convince me I don't think I'm going to convince me I don't think I'm going to convince me I don't think I'm going to convince you and this is two going to convince you and this is two going to convince you and this is two people sitting across the table from people sitting across the table from people sitting across the table from each other no there certain things you each other no there certain things you each other no there certain things you don't even have to investigate you know don't even have to investigate you know don't even have to investigate you know how many citizens civilians died in the how many citizens civilians died in the how many citizens civilians died in the October 7th October 7th October 7th you know that there are LS of you know that there are LS of you know that there are LS of allegations of rape I don't know how allegations of rape I don't know how allegations of rape I don't know how persuaded you are of those they did find persuaded you are of those they did find persuaded you are of those they did find bodies without heads which is there were bodies without heads which is there were bodies without heads which is there were no there were there were some beheadings no there were there were some beheadings no there were there were some beheadings apparently the Israelis didn't even apparently the Israelis didn't even apparently the Israelis didn't even claim that in the document they claim that in the document they claim that in the document they submitted before the icj go read what submitted before the icj go read what submitted before the icj go read what your government submitted it never your government submitted it never your government submitted it never mentioned mentioned mentioned beheadings well as far as I know people beheadings well as far as I know people beheadings well as far as I know people who were beheaded but we could bring it

who were beheaded but we could bring it who were beheaded but we could bring it up right now you also deny that there up right now you also deny that there up right now you also deny that there were rapes there I didn't deny I said were rapes there I didn't deny I said were rapes there I didn't deny I said not seen convincing evidence that not seen convincing evidence that not seen convincing evidence that confirms it I've said that from day one confirms it I've said that from day one confirms it I've said that from day one and I'll say it today 4 and a half and I'll say it today 4 and a half and I'll say it today 4 and a half months later do you know that they months later do you know that they months later do you know that they killed eight or 900 civilians in their killed eight or 900 civilians in their killed eight or 900 civilians in their absolutely that seems to me indisputable absolutely that seems to me indisputable absolutely that seems to me indisputable oh okay well I'm glad that you're I've oh okay well I'm glad that you're I've oh okay well I'm glad that you're I've said that from day one well to be clear said that from day one well to be clear said that from day one well to be clear you haven't you did a debate um I don't you haven't you did a debate um I don't you haven't you did a debate um I don't remember the talk show but you seem to remember the talk show but you seem to remember the talk show but you seem to imply that there was a lot of Crossfire imply that there was a lot of Crossfire imply that there was a lot of Crossfire and that it might have been the IDF I and that it might have been the IDF I and that it might have been the IDF I said I said that there is no question said I said that there is no question said I said that there is no question because the names were published in har because the names were published in har because the names were published in har there's no question that roughly of the there's no question that roughly of the there's no question that roughly of the 12200 people killed 800 of them were 12200 people killed 800 of them were 12200 people killed 800 of them were civilians I see 850 fine so I never said civilians I see 850 fine so I never said civilians I see 850 fine so I never said that but then I said no we don't know that but then I said no we don't know that but then I said no we don't know exactly how they were killed but 800 exactly how they were killed but 800 exactly how they were killed but 800 civilians killed no 850 no question civilians killed no 850 no question civilians killed no 850 no question there and I also said on repeated there and I also said on repeated there and I also said on repeated occasions there cannot be any doubt in occasions there cannot be any doubt in occasions there cannot be any doubt in my opinion as of now with the available my opinion as of now with the available my opinion as of now with the available evidence that Hamas was responsible for evidence that Hamas was responsible for evidence that Hamas was responsible for significant atrocities and I made sure significant atrocities and I made sure significant atrocities and I made sure to include the plural there's a lot of to include the plural there's a lot of to include the plural there's a lot of tricky language being employed here do tricky language being employed here do tricky language being employed here do you think of the tricky it's called you think of the tricky it's called you think of the tricky it's called attaching value to words and not talking attaching value to words and not talking attaching value to words and not talking like a motor mouth I am very careful like a motor mouth I am very careful like a motor mouth I am very careful about qualifying because that's what about qualifying because that's what about qualifying because that's what language is about that's great then let language is about that's great then let language is about that's great then let me just ask a clarifying question do you me just ask a clarifying question do you me just ask a clarifying question do you firmly believe that the majority of the firmly believe that the majority of the firmly believe that the majority of the 850 civilians were killed by Hamas my 850 civilians were killed by Hamas my 850 civilians were killed by Hamas my view is even if it were half 400 is a

view is even if it were half 400 is a view is even if it were half 400 is a huge number by any Reckoning it's okay huge number by any Reckoning it's okay huge number by any Reckoning it's okay wait you didn't I wait you didn't I wait you didn't I even because Ben question because even because Ben question because even because Ben question because Professor Professor Professor moris I don't know I agree with mu raban moris I don't know I agree with mu raban moris I don't know I agree with mu raban I'm not sure if he concedes the 400 I'll I'm not sure if he concedes the 400 I'll I'm not sure if he concedes the 400 I'll say why 400 who thought up the 40000 of say why 400 who thought up the 40000 of say why 400 who thought up the 40000 of the 850 slaughtered byas maybe a couple the 850 slaughtered byas maybe a couple the 850 slaughtered byas maybe a couple of individuals were killed in this I of individuals were killed in this I of individuals were killed in this I don't I don't know you're saying you don't I don't know you're saying you don't I don't know you're saying you believe this particular thing you believe this particular thing you believe this particular thing you clearly don't you clearly don't believe clearly don't you clearly don't believe clearly don't you clearly don't believe this thing one I you said people died this thing one I you said people died this thing one I you said people died that's not controversial wait hold on that's not controversial wait hold on that's not controversial wait hold on hold on that's not controversial Mr hold on that's not controversial Mr hold on that's not controversial Mr banel Mr banel I attach value to words banel Mr banel I attach value to words banel Mr banel I attach value to words yes you said that you value them so much yes you said that you value them so much yes you said that you value them so much Mr Bell please slow down the speech and Mr Bell please slow down the speech and Mr Bell please slow down the speech and attempt to listen when I was explicitly attempt to listen when I was explicitly attempt to listen when I was explicitly asked by Pierce Mor asked by Pierce Mor asked by Pierce Mor I said there can be no question that I said there can be no question that I said there can be no question that Hamas committed atrocities on October s Hamas committed atrocities on October s Hamas committed atrocities on October s if you want me to pin down a number I if you want me to pin down a number I if you want me to pin down a number I can't do that I'm ask you to pin down a can't do that I'm ask you to pin down a can't do that I'm ask you to pin down a number you can listen to what I'm saying number you can listen to what I'm saying number you can listen to what I'm saying no my question is I'll ask I'll ask a no my question is I'll ask I'll ask a no my question is I'll ask I'll ask a very precise you because not it's a very very precise you because not it's a very very precise you because not it's a very it's a very easy question I understood it's a very easy question I understood it's a very easy question I understood your question correctly my question is your question correctly my question is your question correctly my question is do you think the majority of the people do you think the majority of the people do you think the majority of the people that were killed on October 7 civilians that were killed on October 7 civilians that were killed on October 7 civilians were killed by Hamas or are we were killed by Hamas or are we were killed by Hamas or are we subscribing to the idea that the IDF subscribing to the idea that the IDF subscribing to the idea that the IDF killed hundreds 500 let me explain why

killed hundreds 500 let me explain why killed hundreds 500 let me explain why that's a difficult question to answer that's a difficult question to answer that's a difficult question to answer the total number of civilians killed was the total number of civilians killed was the total number of civilians killed was 8850 MH we know that Hamas is 8850 MH we know that Hamas is 8850 MH we know that Hamas is responsible um probably for the majority responsible um probably for the majority responsible um probably for the majority of those killings we also know that of those killings we also know that of those killings we also know that there were killings by Islamic Jihad we there were killings by Islamic Jihad we there were killings by Islamic Jihad we also know we we bunching together the also know we we bunching together the also know we we bunching together the Islamic Jihad and theas that's Islamic Jihad and theas that's Islamic Jihad and theas that's splitting but he means he means the splitting but he means he means the splitting but he means he means the Raiders he means the Raiders I'm Raiders he means the Raiders I'm Raiders he means the Raiders I'm speaking in opposition to the conspiracy speaking in opposition to the conspiracy speaking in opposition to the conspiracy theory that um people like do you prefer theory that um people like do you prefer theory that um people like do you prefer Norm or Professor Franklin or what do Norm or Professor Franklin or what do Norm or Professor Franklin or what do you I don't know what you're how do you you I don't know what you're how do you you I don't know what you're how do you PR it's not a conspiracy the the PR it's not a conspiracy the the PR it's not a conspiracy the the conspiracy theory is the idea that the conspiracy theory is the idea that the conspiracy theory is the idea that the IDF killed the majority of them it's not IDF killed the majority of them it's not IDF killed the majority of them it's not a conspiracy the there's there's also a a conspiracy the there's there's also a a conspiracy the there's there's also a theory that um as Norm pointed out on theory that um as Norm pointed out on theory that um as Norm pointed out on the show that he was on that he thought the show that he was on that he thought the show that he was on that he thought that it was very strange that given how that it was very strange that given how that it was very strange that given how reputable uh Israeli services are when reputable uh Israeli services are when reputable uh Israeli services are when it comes to sending ambulances it comes to sending ambulances it comes to sending ambulances retrieving bodies he thought it was very retrieving bodies he thought it was very retrieving bodies he thought it was very strange that that number was continually strange that that number was continually strange that that number was continually being adjusted do you know why say that being adjusted do you know why say that being adjusted do you know why say that in combination with well I'm not sure in combination with well I'm not sure in combination with well I'm not sure how many were killed you know why the how many were killed you know why the how many were killed you know why the number do you know why the number went number do you know why the number went number do you know why the number went down the number went down because the down the number went down because the down the number went down because the Israeli authorities were in were in Israeli authorities were in were in Israeli authorities were in were in possession of 200 corpses that were possession of 200 corpses that were possession of 200 corpses that were burned to a crisp that they assumed were burned to a crisp that they assumed were burned to a crisp that they assumed were Israeli um PE Israelis who had been Israeli um PE Israelis who had been Israeli um PE Israelis who had been killed on October 7th they later killed on October 7th they later killed on October 7th they later determined that these were in fact determined that these were in fact determined that these were in fact Palestinian Fighters now how does a Palestinian Fighters now how does a Palestinian Fighters now how does a Palestinian fighter get burnt to a crib Palestinian fighter get burnt to a crib Palestinian fighter get burnt to a crib no you're mixing two things some of the

no you're mixing two things some of the no you're mixing two things some of the bodies they didn't weren't able to bodies they didn't weren't able to bodies they didn't weren't able to identify and eventually they ruled that identify and eventually they ruled that identify and eventually they ruled that some of them were actually Arab some of them were actually Arab some of them were actually Arab Marauders rather than Israeli victims Marauders rather than Israeli victims Marauders rather than Israeli victims some a few of them also of the Jews were some a few of them also of the Jews were some a few of them also of the Jews were burnt to a crisp and it took them time burnt to a crisp and it took them time burnt to a crisp and it took them time to work this out and they came out to work this out and they came out to work this out and they came out initially with a slightly higher figure initially with a slightly higher figure initially with a slightly higher figure 1400 dead and eventually reduced it to 1400 dead and eventually reduced it to 1400 dead and eventually reduced it to 1200 and Reon Isis and the reason is 1200 and Reon Isis and the reason is 1200 and Reon Isis and the reason is that a proportion of Israeli civilians that a proportion of Israeli civilians that a proportion of Israeli civilians killed on October 7th I don't believe it killed on October 7th I don't believe it killed on October 7th I don't believe it was a majority we don't know how many um was a majority we don't know how many um was a majority we don't know how many um some were killed in crossfire some were some were killed in crossfire some were some were killed in crossfire some were killed by um uh Israeli shell fire killed by um uh Israeli shell fire killed by um uh Israeli shell fire helicopter fire and so on and um uh the helicopter fire and so on and um uh the helicopter fire and so on and um uh the majority were killed by Palestinians and majority were killed by Palestinians and majority were killed by Palestinians and of that majority um we don't know I mean of that majority um we don't know I mean of that majority um we don't know I mean again I I understood your question is again I I understood your question is again I I understood your question is referring specifically to Hamas which is referring specifically to Hamas which is referring specifically to Hamas which is why I tried to answer it that way but if why I tried to answer it that way but if why I tried to answer it that way but if you meant generically Palestinians yes you meant generically Palestinians yes you meant generically Palestinians yes if you mean specifically Hamas we don't if you mean specifically Hamas we don't if you mean specifically Hamas we don't have a clear breakdown of how I don't have a clear breakdown of how I don't have a clear breakdown of how I don't mean specifically Hamas but I just think mean specifically Hamas but I just think mean specifically Hamas but I just think when you use the word some that's doing when you use the word some that's doing when you use the word some that's doing a lot of heavy li who use some that's a lot of heavy li who use some that's a lot of heavy li who use some that's fine but some can mean anywhere from 1% fine but some can mean anywhere from 1% fine but some can mean anywhere from 1% to 49% but we don't know so the numbers to 49% but we don't know so the numbers to 49% but we don't know so the numbers here and the details are uh interesting here and the details are uh interesting here and the details are uh interesting and important almost from a legal and important almost from a legal and important almost from a legal perspective but if we zoom out the moral perspective but if we zoom out the moral perspective but if we zoom out the moral perspective are Palestinians from Gaza perspective are Palestinians from Gaza perspective are Palestinians from Gaza justified in violent resistance well justified in violent resistance well justified in violent resistance well Palestinians have the right to Palestinians have the right to Palestinians have the right to resistance Palestinian that right resistance Palestinian that right resistance Palestinian that right includes the right to Armed resistance

includes the right to Armed resistance includes the right to Armed resistance at the same time armed resistance um is at the same time armed resistance um is at the same time armed resistance um is subject to the laws of war and there are subject to the laws of war and there are subject to the laws of war and there are very clear very clear very clear regulations um that separate legitimate regulations um that separate legitimate regulations um that separate legitimate acts of armed resistance from acts of acts of armed resistance from acts of acts of armed resistance from acts of armed resistance um that are not armed resistance um that are not armed resistance um that are not legitimate and the attacks of October legitimate and the attacks of October legitimate and the attacks of October 7th where did they land for you there's 7th where did they land for you there's 7th where did they land for you there's been um almost exclusive focus on the been um almost exclusive focus on the been um almost exclusive focus on the attacks on civilian population centers attacks on civilian population centers attacks on civilian population centers and and the killings of um civilians on and and the killings of um civilians on and and the killings of um civilians on October 7th um what is much much less October 7th um what is much much less October 7th um what is much much less discussed to the point of um Amnesia is discussed to the point of um Amnesia is discussed to the point of um Amnesia is that there were very extensive attacks that there were very extensive attacks that there were very extensive attacks on Israeli military and intelligence on Israeli military and intelligence on Israeli military and intelligence facilities on October 7th I would make a facilities on October 7th I would make a facilities on October 7th I would make a very clear distinction between those two very clear distinction between those two very clear distinction between those two and um secondly and um secondly and um secondly um I'm not sure that I would um I'm not sure that I would um I'm not sure that I would characterize the efforts by um characterize the efforts by um characterize the efforts by um Palestinians on October 7th to seize Palestinians on October 7th to seize Palestinians on October 7th to seize Israeli territory and Israeli population Israeli territory and Israeli population Israeli territory and Israeli population centers as in and of themselves centers as in and of themselves centers as in and of themselves illegitimate you mean attacking Israeli illegitimate you mean attacking Israeli illegitimate you mean attacking Israeli civilians is legitimate no no that's not civilians is legitimate no no that's not civilians is legitimate no no that's not what I I didn't understand what you said what I I didn't understand what you said what I I didn't understand what you said I think what you had on October 7th was I think what you had on October 7th was I think what you had on October 7th was an effort by Hamas to seize Israeli an effort by Hamas to seize Israeli an effort by Hamas to seize Israeli territory and population and kill territory and population and kill territory and population and kill civilians that's not what I said what I

civilians that's not what I said what I civilians that's not what I said what I said is I think I I'm I'm I would not said is I think I I'm I'm I would not said is I think I I'm I'm I would not describe the effort to seize Israeli describe the effort to seize Israeli describe the effort to seize Israeli territory as in and of itself territory as in and of itself territory as in and of itself illegitimate as a separate issue from illegitimate as a separate issue from illegitimate as a separate issue from the killing of Israeli civilians where the killing of Israeli civilians where the killing of Israeli civilians where um in those cases where they had been um in those cases where they had been um in those cases where they had been deliberately targeted that's very deliberately targeted that's very deliberately targeted that's very clearly illegitimate whole families were clearly illegitimate whole families were clearly illegitimate whole families were slaughtered in kib but I'm making many slaughtered in kib but I'm making many slaughtered in kib but I'm making many of them swingers incidentally who helped of them swingers incidentally who helped of them swingers incidentally who helped Palestinians go to hospitals in Israel Palestinians go to hospitals in Israel Palestinians go to hospitals in Israel and so on even drove Palestinian cancer and so on even drove Palestinian cancer and so on even drove Palestinian cancer patients to hospitals I'm making a patients to hospitals I'm making a patients to hospitals I'm making a distin you don't seem to be very distin you don't seem to be very distin you don't seem to be very condemnatory of what the Hamas did well condemnatory of what the Hamas did well condemnatory of what the Hamas did well I I don't do selective condemnation I'm I I don't do selective condemnation I'm I I don't do selective condemnation I'm not talking about selective specific not talking about selective specific not talking about selective specific condemnation of this specific condemnation of this specific condemnation of this specific on I would I would for example condemn on I would I would for example condemn on I would I would for example condemn Israeli assaults on civilians deliberate Israeli assaults on civilians deliberate Israeli assaults on civilians deliberate assaults on civilians I would condemn assaults on civilians I would condemn assaults on civilians I would condemn them you're not doing that theas you you them you're not doing that theas you you them you're not doing that theas you you know what the issue is um I've been know what the issue is um I've been know what the issue is um I've been speaking in public now I would say since speaking in public now I would say since speaking in public now I would say since the late 1980s and interviewed and so on the late 1980s and interviewed and so on the late 1980s and interviewed and so on I have never on one occasion ever been I have never on one occasion ever been I have never on one occasion ever been asked to condemn any Israeli act when asked to condemn any Israeli act when asked to condemn any Israeli act when I've been in group discussions those I've been in group discussions those I've been in group discussions those supporting the Israeli action or supporting the Israeli action or supporting the Israeli action or perspective I have never encountered an perspective I have never encountered an perspective I have never encountered an example where these individuals are example where these individuals are example where these individuals are asked to condemn what Israel is doing asked to condemn what Israel is doing asked to condemn what Israel is doing the um the the demand and obligation of the um the the demand and obligation of the um the the demand and obligation of condemnation is exclusively

condemnation is exclusively condemnation is exclusively applied in my personal experience over applied in my personal experience over applied in my personal experience over decades is exclusively applied to decades is exclusively applied to decades is exclusively applied to Palestinians Israel is condemned day and Palestinians Israel is condemned day and Palestinians Israel is condemned day and night on every television channel on night on every television channel on night on every television channel on every and has been for the last tell you every and has been for the last tell you every and has been for the last tell you about a personal experience lasting about a personal experience lasting about a personal experience lasting decades you said decades you said decades you said quote Oh No I'm trying to quote what you quote Oh No I'm trying to quote what you quote Oh No I'm trying to quote what you just said I shouldn't have said anything just said I shouldn't have said anything just said I shouldn't have said anything at any at any at any you should say Professor Morris yes you you should say Professor Morris yes you you should say Professor Morris yes you just said I would condemn any time just said I would condemn any time just said I would condemn any time Israel deliberately attacks civilians Israel deliberately attacks civilians Israel deliberately attacks civilians okay the problem Professor Mars is over okay the problem Professor Mars is over okay the problem Professor Mars is over and over again you claim in the face of and over again you claim in the face of and over again you claim in the face of overwhelming overwhelming overwhelming evidence that they didn't attack evidence that they didn't attack evidence that they didn't attack civilians that's not true I've said has civilians that's not true I've said has civilians that's not true I've said has attacked is extensively in they K and let's let's is extensively in they K and let's let's so you're just eliminating selecting as so you're just eliminating selecting as so you're just eliminating selecting as as Ste say you cherry pick were cherry as Ste say you cherry pick were cherry as Ste say you cherry pick were cherry pick Let's fast forward when you were an pick Let's fast forward when you were an pick Let's fast forward when you were an adult what did you say about the 1982 adult what did you say about the 1982 adult what did you say about the 1982 Lebanon Lebanon Lebanon war what did I say you don't remember war what did I say you don't remember war what did I say you don't remember okay allow me uh oh okay allow me uh oh okay allow me uh oh okay so it happens that I was not at all okay so it happens that I was not at all okay so it happens that I was not at all by any I had no interest in the Israel

by any I had no interest in the Israel by any I had no interest in the Israel Palestine conflict as young men until Palestine conflict as young men until Palestine conflict as young men until the 19 true until the 1982 Lebanon war the 19 true until the 1982 Lebanon war the 19 true until the 1982 Lebanon war yeah uh lost the passage I'll find it yeah uh lost the passage I'll find it yeah uh lost the passage I'll find it okay real quick while he's searching for okay real quick while he's searching for okay real quick while he's searching for that you bring up something that's that you bring up something that's that you bring up something that's really important that a lot of people really important that a lot of people really important that a lot of people don't draw distinction between in that don't draw distinction between in that don't draw distinction between in that there is just causes for war and there there is just causes for war and there there is just causes for war and there is just ways to act within a war and is just ways to act within a war and is just ways to act within a war and these two things principally do have a these two things principally do have a these two things principally do have a distinction from one another correct distinction from one another correct distinction from one another correct however um while I appreciate the however um while I appreciate the however um while I appreciate the recognition of the distinction the idea recognition of the distinction the idea recognition of the distinction the idea that the the cause for war that Hamas that the the cause for war that Hamas that the the cause for war that Hamas was engaged in I don't believe if we was engaged in I don't believe if we was engaged in I don't believe if we look at their actions in war or the look at their actions in war or the look at their actions in war or the statements they've made it doesn't seem statements they've made it doesn't seem statements they've made it doesn't seem like it had to do with territorial like it had to do with territorial like it had to do with territorial acquisition no no no no I the the point acquisition no no no no I the the point acquisition no no no no I the the point no the point I was making was um what no the point I was making was um what no the point I was making was um what was Hamas trying to achieve was Hamas trying to achieve was Hamas trying to achieve militarily on October 7th and I was militarily on October 7th and I was militarily on October 7th and I was pointing out that the focus has been pointing out that the focus has been pointing out that the focus has been very much much on um Hamas attacks on very much much on um Hamas attacks on very much much on um Hamas attacks on civilians and atrocities and so on and civilians and atrocities and so on and civilians and atrocities and so on and I'm not saying those things should be I'm not saying those things should be I'm not saying those things should be ignored what I'm saying is that what's ignored what I'm saying is that what's ignored what I'm saying is that what's getting lost in the shuffle is that getting lost in the shuffle is that getting lost in the shuffle is that there were extensive attacks on Military there were extensive attacks on Military there were extensive attacks on Military and intelligence facilities and as far and intelligence facilities and as far and intelligence facilities and as far as the let's say the other aspects are as the let's say the other aspects are as the let's say the other aspects are concerned um because I think either you concerned um because I think either you concerned um because I think either you or Lex asked me about the legitimacy of or Lex asked me about the legitimacy of or Lex asked me about the legitimacy of these attacks I said these attacks I said these attacks I said I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm unclear whether efforts by Hamas to unclear whether efforts by Hamas to unclear whether efforts by Hamas to seize Israeli population centers in and

seize Israeli population centers in and seize Israeli population centers in and of themselves are illegitimate as of themselves are illegitimate as of themselves are illegitimate as opposed to actions that either opposed to actions that either opposed to actions that either deliberately targeted Israeli civilians deliberately targeted Israeli civilians deliberately targeted Israeli civilians um or actions that um should reasonably um or actions that um should reasonably um or actions that um should reasonably have been expected to result in the have been expected to result in the have been expected to result in the killings of Israeli civilians those killings of Israeli civilians those killings of Israeli civilians those strike me as by definition illegit strike me as by definition illegit strike me as by definition illegit legitimate um and I want to be very legitimate um and I want to be very legitimate um and I want to be very clear about that I have where clear about that I have where clear about that I have where illegitimate means you condemn them illegitimate means you condemn them illegitimate means you condemn them illegitimate means they are not illegitimate means they are not illegitimate means they are not legitimate I I have a problem condemning legitimate I I have a problem condemning legitimate I I have a problem condemning your side yes no not condemning my side your side yes no not condemning my side your side yes no not condemning my side I have a problem with Selective outrage I have a problem with Selective outrage I have a problem with Selective outrage and I have a problem with Selective and I have a problem with Selective and I have a problem with Selective condemnation and as I I explained to you condemnation and as I I explained to you condemnation and as I I explained to you a few minutes ago in in my Decades of of a few minutes ago in in my Decades of of a few minutes ago in in my Decades of of appearing in public and being appearing in public and being appearing in public and being interviewed I have never seen um uh I interviewed I have never seen um uh I interviewed I have never seen um uh I have never been asked to condemn an have never been asked to condemn an have never been asked to condemn an Israeli action I've never been asked for Israeli action I've never been asked for Israeli action I've never been asked for a moral judgment on an Israeli action a moral judgment on an Israeli action a moral judgment on an Israeli action I'm um exclusive request for I'm um exclusive request for I'm um exclusive request for condemnation has to do with what condemnation has to do with what condemnation has to do with what Palestinians do more and just as Palestinians do more and just as Palestinians do more and just as importantly um I'm sure if you watch BBC importantly um I'm sure if you watch BBC importantly um I'm sure if you watch BBC or CNN when is the last time an Israeli or CNN when is the last time an Israeli or CNN when is the last time an Israeli spokesperson has been asked to condemn spokesperson has been asked to condemn spokesperson has been asked to condemn an Israeli act i' I've never seen it I an Israeli act i' I've never seen it I an Israeli act i' I've never seen it I don't think we condemn the Arab side don't think we condemn the Arab side don't think we condemn the Arab side either though right I don't think there either though right I don't think there either though right I don't think there was any condemnation no but now that was any condemnation no but now that was any condemnation no but now that we're talking about Israeli victims all we're talking about Israeli victims all we're talking about Israeli victims all of a sudden morality is I think the of a sudden morality is I think the of a sudden morality is I think the reason why it comes up is because reason why it comes up is because reason why it comes up is because there's no shortage of international there's no shortage of international there's no shortage of international condemnation for Israel as Norm will condemnation for Israel as Norm will condemnation for Israel as Norm will point out a million times that there are point out a million times that there are point out a million times that there are 50 billion un resolutions you've got

50 billion un resolutions you've got 50 billion un resolutions you've got Amnesty International you've got Amnesty International you've got Amnesty International you've got multiple bodies of the UN you've got now multiple bodies of the UN you've got now multiple bodies of the UN you've got now this case for the icj so there's no this case for the icj so there's no this case for the icj so there's no question of if there's condemnation question of if there's condemnation question of if there's condemnation sorry if I can interrupt you in 1948 the sorry if I can interrupt you in 1948 the sorry if I can interrupt you in 1948 the entire world stood entire world stood entire world stood behind the establishment of a Jewish behind the establishment of a Jewish behind the establishment of a Jewish state in the entire world except the state in the entire world except the state in the entire world except the Arab states and the Muslim states well Arab states and the Muslim states well Arab states and the Muslim states well not the entire world okay but I think not the entire world okay but I think not the entire world okay but I think you know what I mean by that the Western you know what I mean by that the Western you know what I mean by that the Western de democracies that's what you're say w de democracies that's what you're say w de democracies that's what you're say w democracies supported the establishment democracies supported the establishment democracies supported the establishment of Israel my quick question was you said of Israel my quick question was you said of Israel my quick question was you said that you believe that this is a very that you believe that this is a very that you believe that this is a very short one you don't have to it's just short one you don't have to it's just short one you don't have to it's just you think that um you think that there's you think that um you think that there's you think that um you think that there's an argument to be made that the people an argument to be made that the people an argument to be made that the people in Gaza that Hamas and Islamic J whoever in Gaza that Hamas and Islamic J whoever in Gaza that Hamas and Islamic J whoever participated had a just cause for war participated had a just cause for war participated had a just cause for war maybe they didn't do it in the correct maybe they didn't do it in the correct maybe they didn't do it in the correct way but they maybe had a just cause for way but they maybe had a just cause for way but they maybe had a just cause for War I don't think there's a maybe there War I don't think there's a maybe there War I don't think there's a maybe there the palestin think they absolutely had a the palestin think they absolutely had a the palestin think they absolutely had a just cause for do you think that Israel just cause for do you think that Israel just cause for do you think that Israel has a just cause for operation swords of has a just cause for operation swords of has a just cause for operation swords of iron no of course not okay all right you iron no of course not okay all right you iron no of course not okay all right you can say your quote can say your quote can say your quote okay uh first of all on this issue of okay uh first of all on this issue of okay uh first of all on this issue of double standards which is the one that double standards which is the one that double standards which is the one that uh irks or irritates uh irks or irritates uh irks or irritates M you said that you are not a person of M you said that you are not a person of M you said that you are not a person of double standards unlike people like muen double standards unlike people like muen double standards unlike people like muen you hold High A single standard and you you hold High A single standard and you you hold High A single standard and you condemn the liberate Israeli attacks on condemn the liberate Israeli attacks on condemn the liberate Israeli attacks on um civilians when um civilians when um civilians when they and I would say they and I would say they and I would say that's true for the period up till that's true for the period up till that's true for the period up till 1967 and I think it's accurate you uh 1967 and I think it's accurate you uh 1967 and I think it's accurate you uh your account of the first inap there it

your account of the first inap there it your account of the first inap there it seems to me you were in Conformity with seems to me you were in Conformity with seems to me you were in Conformity with most mainstream accounts and the case of most mainstream accounts and the case of most mainstream accounts and the case of the first inada you also used the first inada you also used the first inada you also used surprisingly he used Arab human rights surprisingly he used Arab human rights surprisingly he used Arab human rights sources like alhak which I think M sources like alhak which I think M sources like alhak which I think M worked for during the first into further worked for during the first into further worked for during the first into further that's that's that's true but then something very strange true but then something very strange true but then something very strange happens so let's illustrate it wait happens so let's illustrate it wait happens so let's illustrate it wait there something strange which happened there something strange which happened there something strange which happened is the Arabs rejected peace offers is the Arabs rejected peace offers is the Arabs rejected peace offers that's what happen by accepting the Oslo that's what happen by accepting the Oslo that's what happen by accepting the Oslo agreement yeah if we have yeah if we have time I know the record very well I'd be time I know the record very well I'd be time I know the record very well I'd be very happy to go through it with you but very happy to go through it with you but very happy to go through it with you but let's get to those double standards so let's get to those double standards so let's get to those double standards so this is what you have have to say about this is what you have have to say about this is what you have have to say about Israel's invasion of Lebanon in Israel's invasion of Lebanon in Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982 you said Israel was reluctant to 1982 you said Israel was reluctant to 1982 you said Israel was reluctant to harm harm harm civilians sought to avoid casualties on civilians sought to avoid casualties on civilians sought to avoid casualties on both both both sides and took care not to harm Lebanese sides and took care not to harm Lebanese sides and took care not to harm Lebanese and Palestinian and Palestinian and Palestinian civilians you then went on to civilians you then went on to civilians you then went on to acknowledge the massive use of IDF acknowledge the massive use of IDF acknowledge the massive use of IDF Firepower against civilians during the Firepower against civilians during the Firepower against civilians during the siege of Beirut which traumatized siege of Beirut which traumatized siege of Beirut which traumatized Israeli Society marks Mars quickly Israeli Society marks Mars quickly Israeli Society marks Mars quickly anwers the caveat the Israel quote tried anwers the caveat the Israel quote tried anwers the caveat the Israel quote tried to pinpoint military targets but

to pinpoint military targets but to pinpoint military targets but inevitably many civilians were hit inevitably many civilians were hit inevitably many civilians were hit that's your description of the Lebanon that's your description of the Lebanon that's your description of the Lebanon war as I say that's when I first got war as I say that's when I first got war as I say that's when I first got involved in the conflict I am a involved in the conflict I am a involved in the conflict I am a voracious reader I read everything on voracious reader I read everything on voracious reader I read everything on the Lebanon war I would say there's not the Lebanon war I would say there's not the Lebanon war I would say there's not a single account of the Lebanon war in a single account of the Lebanon war in a single account of the Lebanon war in which the estimates are between 15 and which the estimates are between 15 and which the estimates are between 15 and 20,000 Palestinian Lebanese were killed 20,000 Palestinian Lebanese were killed 20,000 Palestinian Lebanese were killed overwhelmingly civilians the biggest overwhelmingly civilians the biggest overwhelmingly civilians the biggest blood leing until the current Gaza uh blood leing until the current Gaza uh blood leing until the current Gaza uh genocide uh biggest blood leing I would genocide uh biggest blood leing I would genocide uh biggest blood leing I would say I can't think of a single mainstream say I can't think of a single mainstream say I can't think of a single mainstream account that remotely approx account that remotely approx account that remotely approx approximates what you just said so approximates what you just said so approximates what you just said so leaving aside I can name the books leaving aside I can name the books leaving aside I can name the books voluminous huge volumes I'll just take voluminous huge volumes I'll just take voluminous huge volumes I'll just take one example now you will remember one example now you will remember one example now you will remember because I think you served in Lebanon in because I think you served in Lebanon in because I think you served in Lebanon in 82 am I correct on that yeah yeah yeah 82 am I correct on that yeah yeah yeah 82 am I correct on that yeah yeah yeah so you'll remember that Dove yaria C the so you'll remember that Dove yaria C the so you'll remember that Dove yaria C the war diary so with your permission allow war diary so with your permission allow war diary so with your permission allow me to s describe what he wrote during me to s describe what he wrote during me to s describe what he wrote during his his his diary so he writes the war machine of diary so he writes the war machine of diary so he writes the war machine of the IDF is Galloping and trampling over the IDF is Galloping and trampling over the IDF is Galloping and trampling over the coner conquered territory the coner conquered territory the coner conquered territory demonstrating a total insensivity incent demonstrating a total insensivity incent demonstrating a total insensivity incent insensitivity to the fate of the Arabs

insensitivity to the fate of the Arabs insensitivity to the fate of the Arabs who are found in its path a PL run who are found in its path a PL run who are found in its path a PL run Hospital suffered a direct hit thousands Hospital suffered a direct hit thousands Hospital suffered a direct hit thousands of refugees are returning to the city of refugees are returning to the city of refugees are returning to the city when they arrive at their homes many of when they arrive at their homes many of when they arrive at their homes many of which have been destroyed or damaged you which have been destroyed or damaged you which have been destroyed or damaged you hear their cries of pain and their howls hear their cries of pain and their howls hear their cries of pain and their howls over the deaths of their loved ones the over the deaths of their loved ones the over the deaths of their loved ones the air is permeated with the smell of hes air is permeated with the smell of hes air is permeated with the smell of hes destruction and death are destruction and death are destruction and death are continue does Point you're making continue does Point you're making continue does Point you're making actually does that sound like your actually does that sound like your actually does that sound like your description of the Lebanon war forget my description of the Lebanon war forget my description of the Lebanon war forget my descriptions the point you're making are descriptions the point you're making are descriptions the point you're making are in print we let me let me just finish my in print we let me let me just finish my in print we let me let me just finish my sentence the point you're making M which sentence the point you're making M which sentence the point you're making M which you somehow forget is that there are you somehow forget is that there are you somehow forget is that there are Israelis who strongly criticize their Israelis who strongly criticize their Israelis who strongly criticize their own side and describe how Israelis are own side and describe how Israelis are own side and describe how Israelis are doing things which they regard as doing things which they regard as doing things which they regard as immoral you don't find that on the Arab immoral you don't find that on the Arab immoral you don't find that on the Arab side I'm talking side I'm talking side I'm talking about Mr Mars I'm not talking about Mr Mars I'm not talking about Mr Mars I'm not talking about I'm talking about you the about I'm talking about you the about I'm talking about you the historian how did you depict the Lebanon historian how did you depict the Lebanon historian how did you depict the Lebanon I believe I believe that the Israeli I believe I believe that the Israeli I believe I believe that the Israeli military tried to avoid committing a military tried to avoid committing a military tried to avoid committing a civilian civilian civilian C C C I think they all the all accounts by I think they all the all accounts by I think they all the all accounts by Robert Fisk and pity the nation F isti Robert Fisk and pity the nation F isti Robert Fisk and pity the nation F isti anist journalist I know has always been anist journalist I know has always been anist journalist I know has always been right so that's why that's why you can right so that's why that's why you can right so that's why that's why you can say with such confidence that you don't say with such confidence that you don't say with such confidence that you don't commit you don't condemn deliberate commit you don't condemn deliberate commit you don't condemn deliberate Israeli attacks and because there

Israeli attacks and because there Israeli attacks and because there weren't any no I didn't say there weren't any no I didn't say there weren't any no I didn't say there weren't any you you agreed I have weren't any you you agreed I have weren't any you you agreed I have condemned Israeli attacks on civilians I condemned Israeli attacks on civilians I condemned Israeli attacks on civilians I never quarrel with facts your your never quarrel with facts your your never quarrel with facts your your description of the description of the description of the 1982 war is so shocking it makes my 1982 war is so shocking it makes my 1982 war is so shocking it makes my inner RVE and then your description of inner RVE and then your description of inner RVE and then your description of the second the second the second inada your description of defensive inada your description of defensive inada your description of defensive Shield when they the Arabs Bing Arab Shield when they the Arabs Bing Arab Shield when they the Arabs Bing Arab suicide bombers Arab suici bombers suicide bombers Arab suici bombers suicide bombers Arab suici bombers destroy fific Jews and masses and buses destroy fific Jews and masses and buses destroy fific Jews and masses and buses and in restaurants that's the second in and in restaurants that's the second in and in restaurants that's the second in Father do you remember that you can try Father do you remember that you can try Father do you remember that you can try suicide bombers in Jerusalem's buses and suicide bombers in Jerusalem's buses and suicide bombers in Jerusalem's buses and restaurants am completely aware of that restaurants am completely aware of that restaurants am completely aware of that but you but if you forgot the numbers I but you but if you forgot the numbers I but you but if you forgot the numbers I don't forget it was 3 to one the number don't forget it was 3 to one the number don't forget it was 3 to one the number they killed mostly armed Palestinian they killed mostly armed Palestinian they killed mostly armed Palestinian government that's what you say in your government that's what you say in your government that's what you say in your book that's but that's not what Amnesty book that's but that's not what Amnesty book that's but that's not what Amnesty International said that's not what human International said that's not what human International said that's not what human rights wife said don't remember they rights wife said don't remember they rights wife said don't remember they that's not I do that's not what don't that's not I do that's not what don't that's not I do that's not what don't whether their figures are right my whether their figures are right my whether their figures are right my figures are right listen listen in the figures are right listen listen in the figures are right listen listen in the second some second some second some Palestinians most of them armed people Palestinians most of them armed people Palestinians most of them armed people and Israelis thousand Israelis were and Israelis thousand Israelis were and Israelis thousand Israelis were killed almost all of them Professor Mars killed almost all of them Professor Mars killed almost all of them Professor Mars fantasy but I'm not going to argue with fantasy but I'm not going to argue with fantasy but I'm not going to argue with here here's a simple challenge you said here here's a simple challenge you said here here's a simple challenge you said not to look at the camera scares the not to look at the camera scares the not to look at the camera scares the people I'll make the open challenge you people I'll make the open challenge you people I'll make the open challenge you are going to scare them no Professor

are going to scare them no Professor are going to scare them no Professor Mars open challenge words are in print I Mars open challenge words are in print I Mars open challenge words are in print I wrote 50 pages analyzing all of your wrote 50 pages analyzing all of your wrote 50 pages analyzing all of your work I quote some will say cherry pick work I quote some will say cherry pick work I quote some will say cherry pick but I think accurately uh quote you but I think accurately uh quote you but I think accurately uh quote you here's a simple here's a simple here's a simple challenge answer me in print answer what challenge answer me in print answer what challenge answer me in print answer what I wrote and show where I'm making things I wrote and show where I'm making things I wrote and show where I'm making things up answer me I'm not familiar I'm sorry up answer me I'm not familiar I'm sorry up answer me I'm not familiar I'm sorry I'm not familiar that's no problem I'm not familiar that's no problem I'm not familiar that's no problem you're a busy man you're an important you're a busy man you're an important you're a busy man you're an important historian you don't have to know historian you don't have to know historian you don't have to know everything that's in print especially by everything that's in print especially by everything that's in print especially by Publishers but now you know and so Publishers but now you know and so Publishers but now you know and so here's the public challenge you answer here's the public challenge you answer here's the public challenge you answer and show where I and show where I and show where I cherry-picked where I misrepresented cherry-picked where I misrepresented cherry-picked where I misrepresented send me the and and then we can have a send me the and and then we can have a send me the and and then we can have a civil scholarly discussion I'm not sure civil scholarly discussion I'm not sure civil scholarly discussion I'm not sure we will agree even if I we don't have to we will agree even if I we don't have to we will agree even if I we don't have to agree it's for the reader to decide agree it's for the reader to decide agree it's for the reader to decide looking at both sides where does truth looking at both sides where does truth looking at both sides where does truth stands no and if I may ask uh it's good stands no and if I may ask uh it's good stands no and if I may ask uh it's good to discuss ideas that are in the era now to discuss ideas that are in the era now to discuss ideas that are in the era now as opposed to citing literature that was as opposed to citing literature that was as opposed to citing literature that was written in the past as much as possible written in the past as much as possible written in the past as much as possible because listeners were not familiar with because listeners were not familiar with because listeners were not familiar with the literature so like whatever was the literature so like whatever was the literature so like whatever was written just express it uh condense the written just express it uh condense the written just express it uh condense the the key idea and then we can debate the the key idea and then we can debate the the key idea and then we can debate the ideas of this no there are two aspects ideas of this no there are two aspects ideas of this no there are two aspects there's a public debate but there's also there's a public debate but there's also there's a public debate but there's also written words yes I'm just telling you

written words yes I'm just telling you written words yes I'm just telling you that you as a as a academic historian that you as a as a academic historian that you as a as a academic historian put a lot of value in the written word put a lot of value in the written word put a lot of value in the written word and I think it is valuable and I think it is valuable and I think it is valuable but in this inally not the only but in this inally not the only but in this inally not the only historian who puts value to words I also historian who puts value to words I also historian who puts value to words I also do actually so more than just one or two do actually so more than just one or two do actually so more than just one or two sentences at a time but this this in sentences at a time but this this in sentences at a time but this this in this context just for the educational this context just for the educational this context just for the educational purpose of teaching ucational purpose is purpose of teaching ucational purpose is purpose of teaching ucational purpose is why would people commit what I have to why would people commit what I have to why would people commit what I have to acknowledge because I am faithful to the acknowledge because I am faithful to the acknowledge because I am faithful to the facts massive atrocities on October 7th facts massive atrocities on October 7th facts massive atrocities on October 7th why did that happen and I think that's why did that happen and I think that's why did that happen and I think that's the problem the past is erased and we the problem the past is erased and we the problem the past is erased and we suddenly went from suddenly went from suddenly went from 1948 to October 7th 1948 to October 7th 1948 to October 7th 2023 and there is a problem there so 2023 and there is a problem there so 2023 and there is a problem there so first of all you have complete freedom first of all you have complete freedom first of all you have complete freedom to backtrack and we'll go there with you to backtrack and we'll go there with you to backtrack and we'll go there with you uh obviously we can't cover every single uh obviously we can't cover every single uh obviously we can't cover every single year every single event but there's year every single event but there's year every single event but there's probably critical moments in time can I probably critical moments in time can I probably critical moments in time can I respond to something relating to that respond to something relating to that respond to something relating to that the libanon War I looked at the book the libanon War I looked at the book the libanon War I looked at the book that he got this from with the quote was that he got this from with the quote was that he got this from with the quote was from um it sounds cold to say it but war from um it sounds cold to say it but war from um it sounds cold to say it but war is tragic and civilians die there is no is tragic and civilians die there is no is tragic and civilians die there is no war that this has not happened in in the war that this has not happened in in the war that this has not happened in in the history of all of humankind the history of all of humankind the history of all of humankind the statement that Israel might take care statement that Israel might take care statement that Israel might take care not to Target civilians is not not to Target civilians is not not to Target civilians is not incompatible with a diary entry from incompatible with a diary entry from incompatible with a diary entry from someone who said they saw civilians someone who said they saw civilians someone who said they saw civilians getting killed I think that sometimes we getting killed I think that sometimes we getting killed I think that sometimes we do a lot of weird games when we talk do a lot of weird games when we talk do a lot of weird games when we talk about International humanitarian law or about International humanitarian law or about International humanitarian law or laws that govern conflict where we say laws that govern conflict where we say laws that govern conflict where we say things like civilians dying is a war things like civilians dying is a war things like civilians dying is a war crime or civilian homes or hospitals crime or civilian homes or hospitals crime or civilian homes or hospitals getting destroyed as necessarily a war

getting destroyed as necessarily a war getting destroyed as necessarily a war crime or is necessarily somebody crime or is necessarily somebody crime or is necessarily somebody intentionally targeting civilians intentionally targeting civilians intentionally targeting civilians without making distinctions between without making distinctions between without making distinctions between military targets or civilian ones I military targets or civilian ones I military targets or civilian ones I think that when we analyze different think that when we analyze different think that when we analyze different attacks or when we talk about the attacks or when we talk about the attacks or when we talk about the conduct of a military I think it's conduct of a military I think it's conduct of a military I think it's important to understand uh like important to understand uh like important to understand uh like perspectively from the unit uh of perspectively from the unit uh of perspectively from the unit uh of analysis of the actual military analysis of the actual military analysis of the actual military committing the acts what's happening and committing the acts what's happening and committing the acts what's happening and what are the decisions being made rather what are the decisions being made rather what are the decisions being made rather than just saying retrospectively oh well than just saying retrospectively oh well than just saying retrospectively oh well a lot of civilians died not very many a lot of civilians died not very many a lot of civilians died not very many you know military people died you know military people died you know military people died comparatively speaking so uh it must comparatively speaking so uh it must comparatively speaking so uh it must have been war crimes especially when have been war crimes especially when have been war crimes especially when you've got another side um fast forward you've got another side um fast forward you've got another side um fast forward to Hamas that intentionally attempts to to Hamas that intentionally attempts to to Hamas that intentionally attempts to induce those same civilian numbers induce those same civilian numbers induce those same civilian numbers because Hamas is guilty of any War crime because Hamas is guilty of any War crime because Hamas is guilty of any War crime that you would potentially accuse and that you would potentially accuse and that you would potentially accuse and this is according to the Amnesty this is according to the Amnesty this is according to the Amnesty International people that Norm loves to International people that Norm loves to International people that Norm loves to site Hamas is guilty of all of these site Hamas is guilty of all of these site Hamas is guilty of all of these same war crimes of them failing to take same war crimes of them failing to take same war crimes of them failing to take care of the civilian population of them care of the civilian population of them care of the civilian population of them essentially utilizing human Shields to essentially utilizing human Shields to essentially utilizing human Shields to try to fire Rockets free from try to fire Rockets free from try to fire Rockets free from Attack essentially yes as I'm just Attack essentially yes as I'm just Attack essentially yes as I'm just saying that essentially yes in terms of saying that essentially yes in terms of saying that essentially yes in terms of how international law defines and not how international law defines and not how international law defines and not how Amnesty International defin but how Amnesty International defin but how Amnesty International defin but amesty International describes times of amesty International describes times of amesty International describes times of human shielding but they don't actually human shielding but they don't actually human shielding but they don't actually apply the correct International legal apply the correct International legal apply the correct International legal standard know what's the correct standard know what's the correct standard know what's the correct absolutely I absolutely absolutely I absolutely absolutely I absolutely abely I'm just saying I'm just saying abely I'm just saying I'm just saying abely I'm just saying I'm just saying leave it or not normal the entire Geneva leave it or not normal the entire Geneva leave it or not normal the entire Geneva conventions is all on Wikipedia it's a conventions is all on Wikipedia it's a conventions is all on Wikipedia it's a wonderful website but I'm just saying wonderful website but I'm just saying wonderful website but I'm just saying I'm just saying that on the Hamas side I'm just saying that on the Hamas side I'm just saying that on the Hamas side if there's an attempt to induce this if there's an attempt to induce this if there's an attempt to induce this type of military activity attempt to type of military activity attempt to type of military activity attempt to induce civilian harm that it's not just induce civilian harm that it's not just induce civilian harm that it's not just enough to say like well here's a diary enough to say like well here's a diary enough to say like well here's a diary entry where a guy talks about how tragic entry where a guy talks about how tragic entry where a guy talks about how tragic I think the problem I think the problem I think the problem I think the problem I think the problem I think the problem with with with your statement is that if

with with with your statement is that if with with with your statement is that if you go back and listen to it the first you go back and listen to it the first you go back and listen to it the first part of it is War as hell civilians die part of it is War as hell civilians die part of it is War as hell civilians die it's it's a fact of life and and and you it's it's a fact of life and and and you it's it's a fact of life and and and you state that in a very factual matter then state that in a very factual matter then state that in a very factual matter then when you start talking about when you start talking about when you start talking about Hamas all of a sudden you've discovered Hamas all of a sudden you've discovered Hamas all of a sudden you've discovered morality and you've discovered morality and you've discovered morality and you've discovered condemnation and you've discovered condemnation and you've discovered condemnation and you've discovered intent and and and you are unfortunately intent and and and you are unfortunately intent and and and you are unfortunately far from alone in this I'll give you far from alone in this I'll give you far from alone in this I'll give you I'll give you you know who for me is a I'll give you you know who for me is a I'll give you you know who for me is a perfect example wait hold on just resp perfect example wait hold on just resp perfect example wait hold on just resp we don't need we don't need we don't need examples the false equivalency of the examples the false equivalency of the examples the false equivalency of the two sides is astounding when Hamas kills two sides is astounding when Hamas kills two sides is astounding when Hamas kills civilians in a surprise attack on civilians in a surprise attack on civilians in a surprise attack on October 7th this isn't because they are October 7th this isn't because they are October 7th this isn't because they are attempting to Target military targets attempting to Target military targets attempting to Target military targets and they happen to stumble into a giant and they happen to stumble into a giant and they happen to stumble into a giant Festival of people that well they did Festival of people that well they did Festival of people that well they did happen to stumble into it they did but happen to stumble into it they did but happen to stumble into it they did but k00 but they but when they stumbled into k00 but they but when they stumbled into k00 but they but when they stumbled into it it wasn't an issue of trying to it it wasn't an issue of trying to it it wasn't an issue of trying to figure out a military Target or not they figure out a military Target or not they figure out a military Target or not they weren't failing a distinction there weren't failing a distinction there weren't failing a distinction there wasn't a proportionality assessment done wasn't a proportionality assessment done wasn't a proportionality assessment done it was just to kill civilians even the it was just to kill civilians even the it was just to kill civilians even the Amnesty International in 2008 and in Amnesty International in 2008 and in Amnesty International in 2008 and in 2014 and even today we'll say'll find 2014 and even today we'll say'll find 2014 and even today we'll say'll find anyone who will deny that Hamas has anyone who will deny that Hamas has anyone who will deny that Hamas has targeted civilians you gave the example targeted civilians you gave the example targeted civilians you gave the example there's a difference of suicide bombings there's a difference of suicide bombings there's a difference of suicide bombings uh during the second interal I mean uh during the second interal I mean uh during the second interal I mean facts are facts sure but I'm saying that facts are facts sure but I'm saying that facts are facts sure but I'm saying that the Hamas targeting of in civilians is the Hamas targeting of in civilians is the Hamas targeting of in civilians is different than the incidental loss of different than the incidental loss of different than the incidental loss of life that occurs when Israel does you life that occurs when Israel does you life that occurs when Israel does you know genocide is the intentional mass know genocide is the intentional mass know genocide is the intentional mass murder genocide is a entirely separate murder genocide is a entirely separate murder genocide is a entirely separate claim yeah but the idea that Israel is claim yeah but the idea that Israel is claim yeah but the idea that Israel is not in the business of intentionally not in the business of intentionally not in the business of intentionally targeting civilians um I know that's

targeting civilians um I know that's targeting civilians um I know that's what we're supposed to believe what we're supposed to believe what we're supposed to believe um but but the historical record um but but the historical record um but but the historical record stands very clearly I it does you've stands very clearly I it does you've stands very clearly I it does you've written about when you say historical do written about when you say historical do written about when you say historical do you mean like in the 40s to the 60s or you mean like in the 40s to the 60s or you mean like in the 40s to the 60s or do you mean like over the from the 30s do you mean like over the from the 30s do you mean like over the from the 30s of the last century to the 20s of this of the last century to the 20s of this of the last century to the 20s of this Century I I just like to make you know Century I I just like to make you know Century I I just like to make you know you the way the way you um characterized you the way the way you um characterized you the way the way you um characterized it I think the best example of that of it I think the best example of that of it I think the best example of that of come across during this specific come across during this specific come across during this specific conflict is is John Kirby the White conflict is is John Kirby the White conflict is is John Kirby the White House spokesman I've I've named HIM House spokesman I've I've named HIM House spokesman I've I've named HIM Tears tosterone for a very good reason Tears tosterone for a very good reason Tears tosterone for a very good reason um when he's talking about Palestinian um when he's talking about Palestinian um when he's talking about Palestinian civilian deaths War as hell you know civilian deaths War as hell you know civilian deaths War as hell you know it's a fact of life get used to it when it's a fact of life get used to it when it's a fact of life get used to it when he was confronted with Israeli civilian he was confronted with Israeli civilian he was confronted with Israeli civilian deaths on October 7th he literally broke deaths on October 7th he literally broke deaths on October 7th he literally broke down he understood that one is down he understood that one is down he understood that one is deliberate and one isn't he understood deliberate and one isn't he understood deliberate and one isn't he understood that no that's what he tried to make us that no that's what he tried to make us that no that's what he tried to make us understand no he he's he was speaking understand no he he's he was speaking understand no he he's he was speaking facts the Kamas guys who attacked the facts the Kamas guys who attacked the facts the Kamas guys who attacked the Kim they apart from the attacks on the Kim they apart from the attacks on the Kim they apart from the attacks on the military sites when they attacked the military sites when they attacked the military sites when they attacked the kibuts were out to kill civilians and kibuts were out to kill civilians and kibuts were out to kill civilians and they killed family after family house they killed family after family house they killed family after family house after house the Israeli attacks on Hamas after house the Israeli attacks on Hamas after house the Israeli attacks on Hamas installations and know better no you installations and know better no you installations and know better no you don't know Israeli Pilots That's thank don't know Israeli Pilots That's thank don't know Israeli Pilots That's thank God you know no you don't know pilot God you know no you don't know pilot God you know no you don't know pilot they believe that they are killing Hamas they believe that they are killing Hamas they believe that they are killing Hamas Niks they're giv Niks they're giv Niks they're giv they and if theas is hiding behind

they and if theas is hiding behind they and if theas is hiding behind civilians they target every time they civilians they target every time they civilians they target every time they target a kid I'm sure they believe it's target a kid I'm sure they believe it's target a kid I'm sure they believe it's Hamas when they kid yeah when they yeah Hamas when they kid yeah when they yeah Hamas when they kid yeah when they yeah when they killed the four kids in the on when they killed the four kids in the on when they killed the four kids in the on the they believe they I know they the they believe they I know they the they believe they I know they believe even though they were dtive side believe even though they were dtive side believe even though they were dtive side even though they were angle you don't even though they were angle you don't even though they were angle you don't see the no they saw let's see the oh I see the no they saw let's see the oh I see the no they saw let's see the oh I know what he's quoting correctly you've know what he's quoting correctly you've know what he's quoting correctly you've lied about this particular instance in lied about this particular instance in lied about this particular instance in the past those kids weren't just on the the past those kids weren't just on the the past those kids weren't just on the beach as as often stated in articles beach as as often stated in articles beach as as often stated in articles those kids were literally coming out of those kids were literally coming out of those kids were literally coming out of a previously identified Hamas compound a previously identified Hamas compound a previously identified Hamas compound that they had operated from they that they had operated from they that they had operated from they literally literally literally with all due respect with all due with all due respect with all due with all due respect with all due respect you're such a fantastic respect you're such a fantastic respect you're such a fantastic it's terrifying that that Warf was it's terrifying that that Warf was it's terrifying that that Warf was filled with journalists there were tens filled with journalists there were tens filled with journalists there were tens scores of journalist that was an Old scores of journalist that was an Old scores of journalist that was an Old Fisherman's Shack what are you talking Fisherman's Shack what are you talking Fisherman's Shack what are you talking about it's so painful it's so painful to about it's so painful it's so painful to about it's so painful it's so painful to listen to this idiocy and C on the other listen to this idiocy and C on the other listen to this idiocy and C on the other side you're implying strike was okay on side you're implying strike was okay on side you're implying strike was okay on the Israeli side where they said we're the Israeli side where they said we're the Israeli side where they said we're just going to kill four Palestinian just going to kill four Palestinian just going to kill four Palestinian children today for no reason you believe children today for no reason you believe children today for no reason you believe that do you believe that do you believe that do you believe that do you believe that do you believe that do you believe that right said right journalist do you that right said right journalist do you that right said right journalist do you think that they children question he think that they children question he think that they children question he will never answer that question I will will never answer that question I will will never answer that question I will answer the question were answer the question were answer the question were out and it was because that was a strike out and it was because that was a strike out and it was because that was a strike that was a drone strike so it was a that was a drone strike so it was a that was a drone strike so it was a proof all the way up chain that we're proof all the way up chain that we're proof all the way up chain that we're going to kill children today kill pales going to kill children today kill pales going to kill children today kill pales you want me to answer or do you want you want me to answer or do you want you want me to answer or do you want your motor mouth to your motor mouth to your motor mouth to go okay answer in

go okay answer in go okay answer in 2018 there was the great March of return 2018 there was the great March of return 2018 there was the great March of return in in in Gaza by all reckonings of Human Rights Gaza by all reckonings of Human Rights Gaza by all reckonings of Human Rights organizations and journalists who were organizations and journalists who were organizations and journalists who were there it was there it was there it was overwhelmingly nonviolent it organized overwhelmingly nonviolent it organized overwhelmingly nonviolent it organized by theas what whoever organized by theas what whoever organized by theas what whoever organized organized by Satan let's organized by Satan let's organized by Satan let's startas Satan I I agree let's let's go startas Satan I I agree let's let's go startas Satan I I agree let's let's go for the big one the big mcgilla it's for the big one the big mcgilla it's for the big one the big mcgilla it's Satan okay oh overwhelmingly organiz Satan okay oh overwhelmingly organiz Satan okay oh overwhelmingly organiz overwhelmingly nonviolent resembled at overwhelmingly nonviolent resembled at overwhelmingly nonviolent resembled at the beginning the first the first in the beginning the first the first in the beginning the first the first in represent the yeah yeah okay not bombs represent the yeah yeah okay not bombs represent the yeah yeah okay not bombs but they tried to make holes in the but they tried to make holes in the but they tried to make holes in the Spence obviously let's continue yeah so Spence obviously let's continue yeah so Spence obviously let's continue yeah so but I'm not sure Israel behaved morally but I'm not sure Israel behaved morally but I'm not sure Israel behaved morally in that okay no no no I wait wait wait in that okay no no no I wait wait wait in that okay no no no I wait wait wait I'm willing to Grant you please please I'm willing to Grant you please please I'm willing to Grant you please please I'm willing to allow me to you don't I'm willing to allow me to you don't I'm willing to allow me to you don't have to have to have to pursue allow me allow me to finish I pursue allow me allow me to finish I pursue allow me allow me to finish I don't know anything about this I'd like don't know anything about this I'd like don't know anything about this I'd like to Okay so to Okay so to Okay so as you know along the Gaza perimeter as you know along the Gaza perimeter as you know along the Gaza perimeter there was Israel's best trained snipers there was Israel's best trained snipers there was Israel's best trained snipers correct I don't know best train they correct I don't know best train they correct I don't know best train they were snipers fine snipers okay all were snipers fine snipers okay all were snipers fine snipers okay all right hey laugh it's hilarious the story right hey laugh it's hilarious the story right hey laugh it's hilarious the story is so funny you're lying about return is so funny you're lying about return is so funny you're lying about return had aspects of violence to it ACC even had aspects of violence to it ACC even had aspects of violence to it ACC even the UN says it themselves okay but you the UN says it themselves okay but you the UN says it themselves okay but you only collect what the UN says that you only collect what the UN says that you only collect what the UN says that you like see the problem Mr Morelli is you like see the problem Mr Morelli is you like see the problem Mr Morelli is you don't know the L English language you don't know the L English language you don't know the L English language you don't I can read from the UN website

don't I can read from the UN website don't I can read from the UN website itself in regards to the great March of itself in regards to the great March of itself in regards to the great March of return they said while the vast majority return they said while the vast majority return they said while the vast majority of protesters acted in a peaceful manner of protesters acted in a peaceful manner of protesters acted in a peaceful manner during most protests dozens have during most protests dozens have during most protests dozens have approached the fence attempting to approached the fence attempting to approached the fence attempting to damage it burning fires throwing stones damage it burning fires throwing stones damage it burning fires throwing stones and moloto Cocktails towards Israeli and moloto Cocktails towards Israeli and moloto Cocktails towards Israeli forces and flying incendiary Kites and forces and flying incendiary Kites and forces and flying incendiary Kites and balloons into Israeli territory the balloons into Israeli territory the balloons into Israeli territory the latter results in extensive damage to latter results in extensive damage to latter results in extensive damage to agricultural land and nature reserves agricultural land and nature reserves agricultural land and nature reserves inside Israel and risk the lives of inside Israel and risk the lives of inside Israel and risk the lives of Israeli civilians some in of shooting Israeli civilians some in of shooting Israeli civilians some in of shooting throwing explosives also talk fast throwing explosives also talk fast throwing explosives also talk fast people think that you're coherent I'm people think that you're coherent I'm people think that you're coherent I'm just reading from the UN yeah but you just reading from the UN yeah but you just reading from the UN yeah but you see I you like them only when they age see I you like them only when they age see I you like them only when they age with you you got the months wrong you with you you got the months wrong you with you you got the months wrong you got the months wrong we're talking about got the months wrong we're talking about got the months wrong we're talking about the beginning in March 30th 2018 you the beginning in March 30th 2018 you the beginning in March 30th 2018 you just describe that March as mostly just describe that March as mostly just describe that March as mostly peaceful allow me to finish so there peaceful allow me to finish so there peaceful allow me to finish so there were the snipers okay now you find it so were the snipers okay now you find it so were the snipers okay now you find it so far-fetched far-fetched far-fetched Israelis purposely deliberately Israelis purposely deliberately Israelis purposely deliberately targeting civilians that's such a targeting civilians that's such a targeting civilians that's such a far-fetched idea an overwhelmingly far-fetched idea an overwhelmingly far-fetched idea an overwhelmingly nonviolent March what did the nonviolent March what did the nonviolent March what did the international inves it was a campaign international inves it was a campaign international inves it was a campaign whatever you want to call for months whatever you want to call for months whatever you want to call for months whatever you want to call months yeah whatever you want to call months yeah whatever you want to call months yeah what did the UN investigation find well what did the UN investigation find well what did the UN investigation find well he just he just he just read I read the report I don't read read I read the report I don't read read I read the report I don't read things off of those machines I read the things off of those machines I read the things off of those machines I read the report what did it find brace yourself report what did it find brace yourself report what did it find brace yourself you thought it was so funny the idea of you thought it was so funny the idea of you thought it was so funny the idea of IDF uh targeting IDF uh targeting IDF uh targeting civilians it found go look this up in

civilians it found go look this up in civilians it found go look this up in your machine I already know what you're your machine I already know what you're your machine I already know what you're gonna say you're gonna say found only gonna say you're gonna say found only gonna say you're gonna say found only one or two of them were one or two of them were one or two of them were Justified targeted Justified targeted Justified targeted journalists targeted Medics and here's journalists targeted Medics and here's journalists targeted Medics and here's the funniest one of all it's so the funniest one of all it's so the funniest one of all it's so hilarious they targeted disabled people hilarious they targeted disabled people hilarious they targeted disabled people who were who were who were 300 M away from the fence and just 300 M away from the fence and just 300 M away from the fence and just standing by standing by standing by this is true if what you're this is true if what you're this is true if what you're say just quick pause uh I think say just quick pause uh I think say just quick pause uh I think everything was fascinating to listen to everything was fascinating to listen to everything was fascinating to listen to except the mention of hilarious nobody except the mention of hilarious nobody except the mention of hilarious nobody finds any of this hilarious and if any finds any of this hilarious and if any finds any of this hilarious and if any of us are laughing it's not at the of us are laughing it's not at the of us are laughing it's not at the suffering of civilians or suffering of suffering of civilians or suffering of suffering of civilians or suffering of anyone it's at the uh the obvious joyful anyone it's at the uh the obvious joyful anyone it's at the uh the obvious joyful camaraderie in the room so I'm I'm camaraderie in the room so I'm I'm camaraderie in the room so I'm I'm enjoying it and also the joy of learning enjoying it and also the joy of learning enjoying it and also the joy of learning so thank you can we talk about the so thank you can we talk about the so thank you can we talk about the targeting civilian thing a little bit I targeting civilian thing a little bit I targeting civilian thing a little bit I think there's like an important think there's like an important think there's like an important underlying not necessarily that I just I underlying not necessarily that I just I underlying not necessarily that I just I think it's important to understand yeah think it's important to understand yeah think it's important to understand yeah I think it's important to understand I think it's important to understand I think it's important to understand there's like three different things here there's like three different things here there's like three different things here that we need to think about so one is a that we need to think about so one is a that we need to think about so one is a policy of killing civilians do we so I policy of killing civilians do we so I policy of killing civilians do we so I would ask the other side I'm going to would ask the other side I'm going to would ask the other side I'm going to ask all three because I know there won't ask all three because I know there won't ask all three because I know there won't be a short answer do you think there is be a short answer do you think there is be a short answer do you think there is a policy topped down from the IDF to a policy topped down from the IDF to a policy topped down from the IDF to Target surance that's one thing a second Target surance that's one thing a second Target surance that's one thing a second thing is when I yeah that's okay but thing is when I yeah that's okay but thing is when I yeah that's okay but then then the second thing is or there's then then the second thing is or there's then then the second thing is or there's there's two distin I want to draw there's two distin I want to draw there's two distin I want to draw between I think Benny would say this I between I think Benny would say this I between I think Benny would say this I would say this um I'm sure undoubtedly would say this um I'm sure undoubtedly would say this um I'm sure undoubtedly there have been cases where IDF soldiers there have been cases where IDF soldiers there have been cases where IDF soldiers For No Good Reason have targeted and For No Good Reason have targeted and For No Good Reason have targeted and killed Palestinians that they should not killed Palestinians that they should not killed Palestinians that they should not have done that would be prosecutable as

have done that would be prosecutable as have done that would be prosecutable as war crimes as defined by the r stat some war crimes as defined by the r stat some war crimes as defined by the r stat some have been prosecuted have been prosecuted have been prosecuted absolutely practically n I'm sure I'm absolutely practically n I'm sure I'm absolutely practically n I'm sure I'm sure I'm you and your I'm sure that we sure I'm you and your I'm sure that we sure I'm you and your I'm sure that we would all agree for soldiers that that would all agree for soldiers that that would all agree for soldiers that that happens but I think that it's important happens but I think that it's important happens but I think that it's important I think that it's important that when we I think that it's important that when we I think that it's important that when we talk about military strikes or we talk talk about military strikes or we talk talk about military strikes or we talk about things especially involving about things especially involving about things especially involving bombings or drone attacks these are bombings or drone attacks these are bombings or drone attacks these are things that are signed off by multiple things that are signed off by multiple things that are signed off by multiple different layers of command by multiple different layers of command by multiple different layers of command by multiple people involved in an operation people involved in an operation people involved in an operation including intelligence gathering including intelligence gathering including intelligence gathering including weering and also have including weering and also have including weering and also have typically lawyers involved when you make typically lawyers involved when you make typically lawyers involved when you make the claim that an IDE of solders shot uh the claim that an IDE of solders shot uh the claim that an IDE of solders shot uh a Palestinian those three people the a Palestinian those three people the a Palestinian those three people the three hostages that came up with white three hostages that came up with white three hostages that came up with white flags and something horrible happened I flags and something horrible happened I flags and something horrible happened I think that's a fair statement to make think that's a fair statement to make think that's a fair statement to make and I think a lot of criticism is and I think a lot of criticism is and I think a lot of criticism is deserved but when you make the statement deserved but when you make the statement deserved but when you make the statement that four children were killed by a that four children were killed by a that four children were killed by a strike the claim that you're making yeah strike the claim that you're making yeah strike the claim that you're making yeah the claim that you're making the claim the claim that you're making the claim the claim that you're making the claim that you're making is that multiple that you're making is that multiple that you're making is that multiple levels of the IDF signed off on just levels of the IDF signed off on just levels of the IDF signed off on just killing I have no idea what you don't killing I have no idea what you don't killing I have no idea what you don't understand the process let me educate understand the process let me educate understand the process let me educate you I can tell you I do understand the you I can tell you I do understand the you I can tell you I do understand the process I'm telling you I'm trying to process I'm telling you I'm trying to process I'm telling you I'm trying to explain you right now yes no it's basic explain you right now yes no it's basic explain you right now yes no it's basic ask anybody to about Wikipedia can you ask anybody to about Wikipedia can you ask anybody to about Wikipedia can you tell me your know to people who work in tell me your know to people who work in tell me your know to people who work in the military what's your knowledge of the military what's your knowledge of the military what's your knowledge of the idea audience can look this up do the idea audience can look this up do the idea audience can look this up do you think that do you think that do you you think that do you think that do you you think that do you think that do you think that bombing and Strikes are think that bombing and Strikes are think that bombing and Strikes are decided by one person in the field do decided by one person in the field do decided by one person in the field do you think one you think one you think one person a pilot doesn't do it on own person a pilot doesn't do it on own person a pilot doesn't do it on own entire apparates that are designed to entire apparates that are designed to entire apparates that are designed to figure out how to strike and who to figure out how to strike and who to figure out how to strike and who to strike So when you say that four strike So when you say that four strike So when you say that four children are targeted you're saying that children are targeted you're saying that children are targeted you're saying that a whole apparatus is trying to murder a whole apparatus is trying to murder a whole apparatus is trying to murder Palestinian children my argument than

Palestinian children my argument than Palestinian children my argument than ridiculous argument because oh really ridiculous argument because oh really ridiculous argument because oh really that it's impossible at the command that it's impossible at the command that it's impossible at the command level it's impossible at that command level it's impossible at that command level it's impossible at that command level but you said that they couldn't level but you said that they couldn't level but you said that they couldn't have done it at the bottom if it weren't have done it at the bottom if it weren't have done it at the bottom if it weren't also you need you don't understand the also you need you don't understand the also you need you don't understand the strength of the claim that you're making strength of the claim that you're making strength of the claim that you're making you're saying that from a top down level you're saying that from a top down level you're saying that from a top down level that lawyers multiple commanders sign that lawyers multiple commanders sign that lawyers multiple commanders sign not tell me what I don't understand or not tell me what I don't understand or not tell me what I don't understand or Palestinians it's true it's true I don't Palestinians it's true it's true I don't Palestinians it's true it's true I don't spend my nights on Wikipedia I read spend my nights on Wikipedia I read spend my nights on Wikipedia I read books I admit that as a a signal as I books I admit that as a a signal as I books I admit that as a a signal as I know books are a waste of time with all know books are a waste of time with all know books are a waste of time with all due regard there are the only you take due regard there are the only you take due regard there are the only you take from them are two or three quotes you from them are two or three quotes you from them are two or three quotes you completely respect I completely respect completely respect I completely respect completely respect I completely respect the fact and I'll say it on the air as the fact and I'll say it on the air as the fact and I'll say it on the air as much as I find totally disgusting what's much as I find totally disgusting what's much as I find totally disgusting what's come of your politics a lot of the books come of your politics a lot of the books come of your politics a lot of the books are excellent and I'll even tell you are excellent and I'll even tell you are excellent and I'll even tell you because I'm not a afraid of saying it because I'm not a afraid of saying it because I'm not a afraid of saying it whenever I have to check on a basic fact whenever I have to check on a basic fact whenever I have to check on a basic fact the equivalent of going to the the equivalent of going to the the equivalent of going to the britanica I go to your books I know you britanica I go to your books I know you britanica I go to your books I know you got a lot of the facts right Benny got a lot of the facts right Benny got a lot of the facts right Benny Moore's book I would never say books are Moore's book I would never say books are Moore's book I would never say books are a waste of time and it's regrettable to a waste of time and it's regrettable to a waste of time and it's regrettable to you that you got strapped with a partner you that you got strapped with a partner you that you got strapped with a partner who thinks that all the wisdom all the who thinks that all the wisdom all the who thinks that all the wisdom all the wisdom he didn't say that a waste of wisdom he didn't say that a waste of wisdom he didn't say that a waste of time I I'd like to respond to what you time I I'd like to respond to what you time I I'd like to respond to what you were saying um were saying um were saying um the the I think the question that that the the I think the question that that the the I think the question that that we're trying to answer I think I think we're trying to answer I think I think we're trying to answer I think I think you don't understand Israel you know

you don't understand Israel you know you don't understand Israel you know nether let me let me finish pleas nether let me let me finish pleas nether let me let me finish pleas understands I think we're I think we're understands I think we're I think we're understands I think we're I think we're all agreed that all agreed that all agreed that Palestinians have deliberately targeted Palestinians have deliberately targeted Palestinians have deliberately targeted civilians whether we're talking about civilians whether we're talking about civilians whether we're talking about Hamas and Islamic Jihad today or Hamas and Islamic Jihad today or Hamas and Islamic Jihad today or previously I prefer the word murdered previously I prefer the word murdered previously I prefer the word murdered and raped rather than targeted Target is and raped rather than targeted Target is and raped rather than targeted Target is too soft for what the Hamas did I'm okay too soft for what the Hamas did I'm okay too soft for what the Hamas did I'm okay I'm not I'm not talking about talking I'm not I'm not talking about talking I'm not I'm not talking about talking about this now yeah but I'm I'm trying about this now yeah but I'm I'm trying about this now yeah but I'm I'm trying to answer his question yeah yeah um to answer his question yeah yeah um to answer his question yeah yeah um historically there is um substantial historically there is um substantial historically there is um substantial evidence that Palestinians have targeted evidence that Palestinians have targeted evidence that Palestinians have targeted uh civilians whether whether it's been uh civilians whether whether it's been uh civilians whether whether it's been incidental or systematic is a different incidental or systematic is a different incidental or systematic is a different discussion I don't want to get into that discussion I don't want to get into that discussion I don't want to get into that now for some reason there seems to be a now for some reason there seems to be a now for some reason there seems to be a huge debate about whether any Israeli huge debate about whether any Israeli huge debate about whether any Israeli has ever sunk so low as as to Target a has ever sunk so low as as to Target a has ever sunk so low as as to Target a civilian I don't no we've agreed both civilian I don't no we've agreed both civilian I don't no we've agreed both said this has happened here and there said this has happened here and there said this has happened here and there and I think we've agreed on that okay I and I think we've agreed on that okay I and I think we've agreed on that okay I think um what we're saying is it's not think um what we're saying is it's not think um what we're saying is it's not policy which is what you guys are policy which is what you guys are policy which is what you guys are implying that they kill civilians implying that they kill civilians implying that they kill civilians deliberately if I understand you deliberately if I understand you deliberately if I understand you correctly you're basically making the correctly you're basically making the correctly you're basically making the claim that none of these attacks could claim that none of these attacks could claim that none of these attacks could have happened without going through an have happened without going through an have happened without going through an entire chain of commands strike cells entire chain of commands strike cells entire chain of commands strike cells that are involved in like drone attacks that are involved in like drone attacks that are involved in like drone attacks or plane attacks yes my understanding of or plane attacks yes my understanding of or plane attacks yes my understanding of the Israeli military and you could the Israeli military and you could the Israeli military and you could perhaps um you've served in it you would perhaps um you've served in it you would perhaps um you've served in it you would know better it's actually a fairly know better it's actually a fairly know better it's actually a fairly chaotic Organization no no that's not chaotic Organization no no that's not chaotic Organization no no that's not true especially not the Air Force true especially not the Air Force true especially not the Air Force extremely extremely organized the Air

extremely extremely organized the Air extremely extremely organized the Air Force Works in a very organized fashion Force Works in a very organized fashion Force Works in a very organized fashion as he says with lawyers chain of command as he says with lawyers chain of command as he says with lawyers chain of command and ultimately the pilot drops the bomb and ultimately the pilot drops the bomb and ultimately the pilot drops the bomb where he's told to drop it protective where he's told to drop it protective where he's told to drop it protective Edge was that 200 200 strikes in like 60 Edge was that 200 200 strikes in like 60 Edge was that 200 200 strikes in like 60 seconds I think I think at the opening seconds I think I think at the opening seconds I think I think at the opening of protective Edge like the yeah the of protective Edge like the yeah the of protective Edge like the yeah the coordination between talking about 2008 coordination between talking about 2008 coordination between talking about 2008 uh for I think was 2014 but I'm just uh for I think was 2014 but I'm just uh for I think was 2014 but I'm just saying that the coordination in the saying that the coordination in the saying that the coordination in the military is pretty well my my military is pretty well my my military is pretty well my my understanding of the Israeli military understanding of the Israeli military understanding of the Israeli military especially is that it's quite chaotic especially is that it's quite chaotic especially is that it's quite chaotic and there's also a lot of testimonies and there's also a lot of testimonies and there's also a lot of testimonies from Israel but be that as it may okay from Israel but be that as it may okay from Israel but be that as it may okay I'm I'm prepared to accept um both of I'm I'm prepared to accept um both of I'm I'm prepared to accept um both of your contentions that it's a a highly your contentions that it's a a highly your contentions that it's a a highly organized and disciplined Force Air organized and disciplined Force Air organized and disciplined Force Air Force under any scenario is going to be Force under any scenario is going to be Force under any scenario is going to be more organized than the other branches more organized than the other branches more organized than the other branches and and you're saying such a strike and and you're saying such a strike and and you're saying such a strike would have been inconceivable I'm well would have been inconceivable I'm well would have been inconceivable I'm well I'm not necessarily saying incon that I'm not necessarily saying incon that I'm not necessarily saying incon that like that would have required Mur intent like that would have required Mur intent like that would have required Mur intent so many I don't think good evidence been so many I don't think good evidence been so many I don't think good evidence been presented to say that that's your basic presented to say that that's your basic presented to say that that's your basic claim is that we we we it would be fair claim is that we we we it would be fair claim is that we we we it would be fair to assume that such a strike could have to assume that such a strike could have to assume that such a strike could have only been carried out with multiple um only been carried out with multiple um only been carried out with multiple um uh levels of authorization and and and uh levels of authorization and and and uh levels of authorization and and and signing off okay let's accept that for signing off okay let's accept that for signing off okay let's accept that for the sake of argument um we have now the sake of argument um we have now the sake of argument um we have now seen incident after incident after seen incident after incident after seen incident after incident after incident after incident where entire incident after incident where entire incident after incident where entire families are families are families are vaporized and and single strikes who is vaporized and and single strikes who is vaporized and and single strikes who is in the families who lives in the house in the families who lives in the house in the families who lives in the house family MERS no next to the house these

family MERS no next to the house these family MERS no next to the house these families we have seen incident do you families we have seen incident do you families we have seen incident do you know that kamnik weren't in that house know that kamnik weren't in that house know that kamnik weren't in that house do you know that they ammunition dumps do you know that they ammunition dumps do you know that they ammunition dumps weren why I have to prove a negative weren why I have to prove a negative weren why I have to prove a negative you're saying that they deliberately you're saying that they deliberately you're saying that they deliberately targeted families if Israel wanted to targeted families if Israel wanted to targeted families if Israel wanted to kill civilians in in in Gaza they could kill civilians in in in Gaza they could kill civilians in in in Gaza they could have killed 500,000 by now with the have killed 500,000 by now with the have killed 500,000 by now with the number of strikes and the fact that they number of strikes and the fact that they number of strikes and the fact that they only killed a certain small number, is a only killed a certain small number, is a only killed a certain small number, is a small number small number in 30,000 small number small number in 30,000 small number small number in 30,000 number proportion over four months number proportion over four months number proportion over four months probably is an indication 12000 targeted probably is an indication 12000 targeted probably is an indication 12000 targeted and that there are Hamas Targets in and that there are Hamas Targets in and that there are Hamas Targets in these places so I've I've get 12,000 these places so I've I've get 12,000 these places so I've I've get 12,000 children is only and if that's the case children is only and if that's the case children is only and if that's the case why is it yeah you said only only though why is it yeah you said only only though why is it yeah you said only only though Professor Mars here's a question for you Professor Mars here's a question for you Professor Mars here's a question for you if we take every combat zone in the if we take every combat zone in the if we take every combat zone in the world for the past three years every world for the past three years every world for the past three years every combat zone in the world in Vietnam the combat zone in the world in Vietnam the combat zone in the world in Vietnam the Americans killed talking Americans killed talking Americans killed talking about I was in yeah I was in the about I was in yeah I was in the about I was in yeah I was in the anti-war movement so don't k a million anti-war movement so don't k a million anti-war movement so don't k a million people inet fine fine and and uh 30 people inet fine fine and and uh 30 people inet fine fine and and uh 30 million Russians were killed so in million Russians were killed so in million Russians were killed so in during World War II so everything else during World War II so everything else during World War II so everything else is irrelevant okay here's a is irrelevant okay here's a is irrelevant okay here's a question professor professor Mars here's question professor professor Mars here's question professor professor Mars here's a question it's very perplexing a question it's very perplexing a question it's very perplexing if you take every combat zone in the if you take every combat zone in the if you take every combat zone in the world for the past three world for the past three world for the past three years and you multiply the number of years and you multiply the number of years and you multiply the number of children children children killed by

killed by killed by four every combat zone in the world you four every combat zone in the world you four every combat zone in the world you get gossip okay so when you supposed to get gossip okay so when you supposed to get gossip okay so when you supposed to prove okay I'm going to I'm going to prove okay I'm going to I'm going to prove okay I'm going to I'm going to tell shut up you're relying numbers no tell shut up you're relying numbers no tell shut up you're relying numbers no I'm not I'm rying on the numbers that I'm not I'm rying on the numbers that I'm not I'm rying on the numbers that everybody else I'm rying on the numbers everybody else I'm rying on the numbers everybody else I'm rying on the numbers what that those numbers okay which may what that those numbers okay which may what that those numbers okay which may not be true they could invent any not be true they could invent any not be true they could invent any anything because you know that they are anything because you know that they are anything because you know that they are aous organ I know mendacious believe me aous organ I know mendacious believe me aous organ I know mendacious believe me mous as in the Israeli Ministry of mous as in the Israeli Ministry of mous as in the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs okay so here's the thing Foreign Affairs okay so here's the thing Foreign Affairs okay so here's the thing you say they could have killed 500,000 you say they could have killed 500,000 you say they could have killed 500,000 but they only killed only that's your but they only killed only that's your but they only killed only that's your word only killed 30,000 you believe that word only killed 30,000 you believe that word only killed 30,000 you believe that they deliberately Target civilians they they deliberately Target civilians they they deliberately Target civilians they could would have killed could would have killed could would have killed the fact the fact the fact is tar cilian Professor Maris for you is tar cilian Professor Maris for you is tar cilian Professor Maris for you don't understand for hisian I don't want don't understand for hisian I don't want don't understand for hisian I don't want to understand Israeli Society you want to understand Israeli Society you want to understand Israeli Society you want to know the truth I don't want to I to know the truth I don't want to I to know the truth I don't want to I don't want to gide their heads that's don't want to gide their heads that's don't want to gide their heads that's the problem 90% the problem 90% the problem 90% of a good historian good historian tries of a good historian good historian tries of a good historian good historian tries to get into the heads of's a liit theist to get into the heads of's a liit theist to get into the heads of's a liit theist there's a limit when 90% when 90% of there's a limit when 90% when 90% of there's a limit when 90% when 90% of Israelis think that Israel is using Israelis think that Israel is using Israelis think that Israel is using enough or too little force in Gaza I enough or too little force in Gaza I enough or too little force in Gaza I don't want to get inside that head 40% don't want to get inside that head 40% don't want to get inside that head 40% think that Israel is using insufficient think that Israel is using insufficient think that Israel is using insufficient force in Gaza I don't want to gide that force in Gaza I don't want to gide that force in Gaza I don't want to gide that head I don't want to gide the head of

head I don't want to gide the head of head I don't want to gide the head of people who think they're using people who think they're using people who think they're using insufficient Force against the insufficient Force against the insufficient Force against the population against the population half population against the population half population against the population half of which is children I don't want to get of which is children I don't want to get of which is children I don't want to get inside that head but here's the point inside that head but here's the point inside that head but here's the point because your partner wants to know the because your partner wants to know the because your partner wants to know the point you don't understand political point you don't understand political point you don't understand political constraints one of your ministers said constraints one of your ministers said constraints one of your ministers said let's drop an atomic bomb on you think let's drop an atomic bomb on you think let's drop an atomic bomb on you think he really meant that he said it no no no he really meant that he said it no no no he really meant that he said it no no no it was said in a sort of a questionable it was said in a sort of a questionable it was said in a sort of a questionable way he didn't say they way he didn't say they way he didn't say they should I'm not supporting ID this should I'm not supporting ID this should I'm not supporting ID this Minister this minister is Minister this minister is Minister this minister is aiic idiot he didn't say dropping up aiic idiot he didn't say dropping up aiic idiot he didn't say dropping up none other none other than Israel's none other none other than Israel's none other none other than Israel's Chief historian the famed justifiably Chief historian the famed justifiably Chief historian the famed justifiably famed Benny Maris thinks we should be famed Benny Maris thinks we should be famed Benny Maris thinks we should be dropping nuclear weapons on Iran Iran dropping nuclear weapons on Iran Iran dropping nuclear weapons on Iran Iran has for years its leaders for years have has for years its leaders for years have has for years its leaders for years have said we should destroy Israel you agree said we should destroy Israel you agree said we should destroy Israel you agree with that they've said we should destroy with that they've said we should destroy with that they've said we should destroy Israel Israel must be destroyed have you Israel Israel must be destroyed have you Israel Israel must be destroyed have you is that correct this is what the Iranian is that correct this is what the Iranian is that correct this is what the Iranian leaders have been saying since I would leaders have been saying since I would leaders have been saying since I would say Iranian leaders have sent mixed say Iranian leaders have sent mixed say Iranian leaders have sent mixed messages okay okay but some of them have messages okay okay but some of them have messages okay okay but some of them have said said said including if you don't including if you don't including if you don't knowm it's very funny that supports and knowm it's very funny that supports and knowm it's very funny that supports and the H and Hamas they yourself wait wait the H and Hamas they yourself wait wait the H and Hamas they yourself wait wait wait to the extent the hou are to the wait to the extent the hou are to the wait to the extent the hou are to the extent that the houthis are trying to

extent that the houthis are trying to extent that the houthis are trying to stop the genocide in go there is no have stop the genocide in go there is no have stop the genocide in go there is no have right right right to selectively support international law to selectively support international law to selectively support international law when it agrees with you and then when it when it agrees with you and then when it when it agrees with you and then when it doesn't you decide to throw doesn't you decide to throw doesn't you decide to throw International International International laaz if you laaz if you laaz if you like let me read what you said Norm stop like let me read what you said Norm stop like let me read what you said Norm stop please Norm just for me please just give please Norm just for me please just give please Norm just for me please just give me a second you said that there's no me a second you said that there's no me a second you said that there's no genocide going on in Gaza let me ask genocide going on in Gaza let me ask genocide going on in Gaza let me ask that clear question yes the same that clear question yes the same that clear question yes the same question I asked on Hamas attacks is question I asked on Hamas attacks is question I asked on Hamas attacks is there from a legal philosophical moral there from a legal philosophical moral there from a legal philosophical moral perspective is there genocide going on perspective is there genocide going on perspective is there genocide going on in Gaza today is there a genocide going in Gaza today is there a genocide going in Gaza today is there a genocide going on in Gaza well in several years we will on in Gaza well in several years we will on in Gaza well in several years we will have a definitive response to to that have a definitive response to to that have a definitive response to to that question what has happened thus far is question what has happened thus far is question what has happened thus far is that on the 29th of December that on the 29th of December that on the 29th of December the Republic of South Africa instituted the Republic of South Africa instituted the Republic of South Africa instituted um proceedings against Israel pursuant um proceedings against Israel pursuant um proceedings against Israel pursuant to the 1948 convention on the prevention to the 1948 convention on the prevention to the 1948 convention on the prevention and Punishment of the crime of and Punishment of the crime of and Punishment of the crime of genocide um South Africa basically genocide um South Africa basically genocide um South Africa basically accused Israel of perpetrating um accused Israel of perpetrating um accused Israel of perpetrating um genocide in the Gaza Strip on the 26th genocide in the Gaza Strip on the 26th genocide in the Gaza Strip on the 26th of January the um uh the court issued of January the um uh the court issued of January the um uh the court issued its initial ruling the court at this its initial ruling the court at this its initial ruling the court at this stage um is not making a determination stage um is not making a determination stage um is not making a determination on whether Israel has or has not um on whether Israel has or has not um on whether Israel has or has not um committed genocide so just as it has not

committed genocide so just as it has not committed genocide so just as it has not found Israel guilty it certainly also found Israel guilty it certainly also found Israel guilty it certainly also hasn't found Israel innocent what the hasn't found Israel innocent what the hasn't found Israel innocent what the court had to do at this stage was take court had to do at this stage was take court had to do at this stage was take one of two decisions either South one of two decisions either South one of two decisions either South Africa's case was um the the equivalent Africa's case was um the the equivalent Africa's case was um the the equivalent of a frivolous lawsuit and dismiss it of a frivolous lawsuit and dismiss it of a frivolous lawsuit and dismiss it and close the proceedings or it had to and close the proceedings or it had to and close the proceedings or it had to determine that um South Africa presented determine that um South Africa presented determine that um South Africa presented a plausible case that Israel was a plausible case that Israel was a plausible case that Israel was violating its obligations um under the violating its obligations um under the violating its obligations um under the genocide convention and that it would on genocide convention and that it would on genocide convention and that it would on that basis hold um a full hearing now a that basis hold um a full hearing now a that basis hold um a full hearing now a lot of people have um looked at the lot of people have um looked at the lot of people have um looked at the Court's ruling of the 26th of January Court's ruling of the 26th of January Court's ruling of the 26th of January and focused on the fact that the court and focused on the fact that the court and focused on the fact that the court did not order a ceasefire I actually did not order a ceasefire I actually did not order a ceasefire I actually wasn't expecting it to order a ceasefire wasn't expecting it to order a ceasefire wasn't expecting it to order a ceasefire and I wasn't surprised that it didn't and I wasn't surprised that it didn't and I wasn't surprised that it didn't because in the other cases that that the because in the other cases that that the because in the other cases that that the court has considered most prominently um court has considered most prominently um court has considered most prominently um Bosnia and Myanmar it also didn't order Bosnia and Myanmar it also didn't order Bosnia and Myanmar it also didn't order a a a ceasefire um and South Africa in ceasefire um and South Africa in ceasefire um and South Africa in requesting a ceasefire also didn't ask requesting a ceasefire also didn't ask requesting a ceasefire also didn't ask the court to render an opinion on the the court to render an opinion on the the court to render an opinion on the legitimacy or lack thereof of Israel's legitimacy or lack thereof of Israel's legitimacy or lack thereof of Israel's um of Israel's military operation from um of Israel's military operation from um of Israel's military operation from my perspective um the key issue on the my perspective um the key issue on the my perspective um the key issue on the 26th of January was whether the court 26th of January was whether the court 26th of January was whether the court would simply dismiss the case or decide would simply dismiss the case or decide would simply dismiss the case or decide to proceed with it and it decided to

to proceed with it and it decided to to proceed with it and it decided to proceed it decided to and I think that's proceed it decided to and I think that's proceed it decided to and I think that's enormously that enormously you said they enormously that enormously you said they enormously that enormously you said they committ genocide you already said they committ genocide you already said they committ genocide you already said they committed genocide is committing committed genocide is committing committed genocide is committing genocide allow allow me allow me genocide allow allow me allow me genocide allow allow me allow me that's correct now I don't run away so that's correct now I don't run away so that's correct now I don't run away so Norman you did say isra can you let Norman you did say isra can you let Norman you did say isra can you let Finish Well the end of the story is you Finish Well the end of the story is you Finish Well the end of the story is you specifically asked whether I think specifically asked whether I think specifically asked whether I think Israel is committing genocide I Israel is committing genocide I Israel is committing genocide I explained formally there is no finding explained formally there is no finding explained formally there is no finding and as you said we won't know for a and as you said we won't know for a and as you said we won't know for a number of years and I think there's number of years and I think there's number of years and I think there's legitimate questions to be raised I mean legitimate questions to be raised I mean legitimate questions to be raised I mean in the Bosnia case which I think all in the Bosnia case which I think all in the Bosnia case which I think all four of us would agree was clearly a four of us would agree was clearly a four of us would agree was clearly a case of genocide the court determined case of genocide the court determined case of genocide the court determined mean by the serbs yes and in the bosia mean by the serbs yes and in the bosia mean by the serbs yes and in the bosia case the court determined that of all case the court determined that of all case the court determined that of all the evidence placed before them only the evidence placed before them only the evidence placed before them only Sanita qualified as genocide and all the Sanita qualified as genocide and all the Sanita qualified as genocide and all the other atrocities committed did not other atrocities committed did not other atrocities committed did not qualify as genocide you know qualify as genocide you know qualify as genocide you know international law is a developing uh international law is a developing uh international law is a developing uh organism I don't know how the court is organism I don't know how the court is organism I don't know how the court is going to respond um in this case so I going to respond um in this case so I going to respond um in this case so I wouldn't take it as a foregone wouldn't take it as a foregone wouldn't take it as a foregone conclusion um how the court is going to conclusion um how the court is going to conclusion um how the court is going to respond but Norman has determined respond but Norman has determined respond but Norman has determined already I have too because you ask my already I have too because you ask my already I have too because you ask my personal op personal opinion is also so personal op personal opinion is also so personal op personal opinion is also so as As a matter of law I want to State as As a matter of law I want to State as As a matter of law I want to State very clearly has not been determined and very clearly has not been determined and very clearly has not been determined and won't be determined for several years won't be determined for several years won't be determined for several years based on my um uh observations and and based on my um uh observations and and based on my um uh observations and and the evidence before me I would say it's

the evidence before me I would say it's the evidence before me I would say it's indisputable that Israel is engaged in a indisputable that Israel is engaged in a indisputable that Israel is engaged in a genocidal assault against the genocidal assault against the genocidal assault against the Palestinian people in the Gaza P line Palestinian people in the Gaza P line Palestinian people in the Gaza P line yeah with the program the PLO is long yeah with the program the PLO is long yeah with the program the PLO is long past what okay the authority as as as past what okay the authority as as as past what okay the authority as as as you were saying um genocide is is is not you were saying um genocide is is is not you were saying um genocide is is is not a body count um genocide consists of two a body count um genocide consists of two a body count um genocide consists of two elements um the destruction of a people elements um the destruction of a people elements um the destruction of a people and whole or in part so in other words and whole or in part so in other words and whole or in part so in other words you can commit genocide by killing you can commit genocide by killing you can commit genocide by killing 30,000 people it doesn't have well five 30,000 people it doesn't have well five 30,000 people it doesn't have well five probably is below the thresold number probably is below the thresold number probably is below the thresold number yes but I think 30,000 crosses the yes but I think 30,000 crosses the yes but I think 30,000 crosses the threshold and not reaching 500 ,000 is threshold and not reaching 500 ,000 is threshold and not reaching 500 ,000 is probably relevant and the second element probably relevant and the second element probably relevant and the second element is there has to be an intent in other is there has to be an intent in other is there has to be an intent in other words and you believe there's an intent words and you believe there's an intent words and you believe there's an intent yes I think if if there is any other yes I think if if there is any other yes I think if if there is any other plausible reason for why all these plausible reason for why all these plausible reason for why all these people are being murdered it's not people are being murdered it's not people are being murdered it's not genocide and as far as intent what about genocide and as far as intent what about genocide and as far as intent what about hiding behind a human shield you don't hiding behind a human shield you don't hiding behind a human shield you don't think that's the reason for them being think that's the reason for them being think that's the reason for them being killed well let's get the intent part killed well let's get the intent part killed well let's get the intent part out of the way first um South Africa's U out of the way first um South Africa's U out of the way first um South Africa's U forget South Africa they're part I'd forget South Africa they're part I'd forget South Africa they're part I'd like to finish like to finish like to finish government that's that's got nothing to government that's that's got nothing to government that's that's got nothing to do with I think they're Pro Satan as do with I think they're Pro Satan as do with I think they're Pro Satan as well last time no they're proas um you well last time no they're proas um you well last time no they're proas um you know for some reason you don't have a know for some reason you don't have a know for some reason you don't have a problem with people being pro-israeli at problem with people being pro-israeli at problem with people being pro-israeli at the time of of of of this but if they the time of of of of this but if they the time of of of of this but if they support support support Palestinians right to life or Palestinians right to life or Palestinians right to life or self-determination they get demonized

self-determination they get demonized self-determination they get demonized and delegitimized as Pro they supported and delegitimized as Pro they supported and delegitimized as Pro they supported an organization which murdered 1200 an organization which murdered 1200 an organization which murdered 1200 people deliberately that's my problem people deliberately that's my problem people deliberately that's my problem but supporting a state that has murdered but supporting a state that has murdered but supporting a state that has murdered 30,000 but they haven't because these 30,000 but they haven't because these 30,000 but they haven't because these are 30,000 basically human Shi used by are 30,000 basically human Shi used by are 30,000 basically human Shi used by theas which theas wanted wanted killed theas which theas wanted wanted killed theas which theas wanted wanted killed they wanted them killed Hamas wanted they wanted them killed Hamas wanted they wanted them killed Hamas wanted these people killed if I could just get these people killed if I could just get these people killed if I could just get you don't think they wanted them killed you don't think they wanted them killed you don't think they wanted them killed they didn't provide them with shelters they didn't provide them with shelters they didn't provide them with shelters they build tunnels for their Fighters they build tunnels for their Fighters they build tunnels for their Fighters but not one shelter for their own but not one shelter for their own but not one shelter for their own civilian you asked me about int course civilian you asked me about int course civilian you asked me about int course they want them killed okay you asked me they want them killed okay you asked me they want them killed okay you asked me about intent and the reason that I about intent and the reason that I about intent and the reason that I bought in um the South African bought in um the South African bought in um the South African application is because it is actually application is because it is actually application is because it is actually exceptionally detailed on tent by exceptionally detailed on tent by exceptionally detailed on tent by quoting numerous all sorts of idiotic quoting numerous all sorts of idiotic quoting numerous all sorts of idiotic ministers in Israel well yeah including ministers in Israel well yeah including ministers in Israel well yeah including the Prime Minister the defense minister the Prime Minister the defense minister the Prime Minister the defense minister the chief of say genocide he the chief of say genocide he the chief of say genocide he said the said the said the word are a word are a word are a really according to ASA kaser the really according to ASA kaser the really according to ASA kaser the philosopher of the IDF yeah he said that philosopher of the IDF yeah he said that philosopher of the IDF yeah he said that Netanyahu was avowing genocide now he's Netanyahu was avowing genocide now he's Netanyahu was avowing genocide now he's an idiot so didn't say he's an idiot an idiot so didn't say he's an idiot an idiot so didn't say he's an idiot pass it so the reason I raised the South pass it so the reason I raised the South pass it so the reason I raised the South African application is twofold Hamas or African application is twofold Hamas or African application is twofold Hamas or no Hamas it's exceptionally detailed on no Hamas it's exceptionally detailed on no Hamas it's exceptionally detailed on the question of on the question of the question of on the question of the question of on the question of intent and secondly when when the intent and secondly when when the intent and secondly when when the international court of justice issues a international court of justice issues a international court of justice issues a ruling individual justices um have have

ruling individual justices um have have ruling individual justices um have have the right can give their own opinion and the right can give their own opinion and the right can give their own opinion and I found the German one to be the most I found the German one to be the most I found the German one to be the most interesting on on this specific question interesting on on this specific question interesting on on this specific question because he was basically saying that he because he was basically saying that he because he was basically saying that he didn't think South Africa presented a didn't think South Africa presented a didn't think South Africa presented a persuasive case but he said there um persuasive case but he said there um persuasive case but he said there um their section on intent was so their section on intent was so their section on intent was so overpowering that he felt he was left overpowering that he felt he was left overpowering that he felt he was left with no choice but to vote with with the with no choice but to vote with with the with no choice but to vote with with the majority so I think that answers um the majority so I think that answers um the majority so I think that answers um the intent part of your question so for the intent part of your question so for the intent part of your question so for the icj case that South Africa's brought I icj case that South Africa's brought I icj case that South Africa's brought I think there's a couple things that need think there's a couple things that need think there's a couple things that need to be mentioned one is and I saw you two to be mentioned one is and I saw you two to be mentioned one is and I saw you two talk at length about this the talk at length about this the talk at length about this the plausibility standard is incredibly low plausibility standard is incredibly low plausibility standard is incredibly low the only thing we're looking for is a the only thing we're looking for is a the only thing we're looking for is a basic presentation of facts that make it basic presentation of facts that make it basic presentation of facts that make it conceivable possible that PL plausible conceivable possible that PL plausible conceivable possible that PL plausible which legally this is obviously below which legally this is obviously below which legally this is obviously below criminal conviction below um yeah below criminal conviction below um yeah below criminal conviction below um yeah below think of it as an indictment sure think of it as an indictment sure think of it as an indictment sure possibly maybe even a a lower level than possibly maybe even a a lower level than possibly maybe even a a lower level than even an indictment so plausibility is an even an indictment so plausibility is an even an indictment so plausibility is an incredibly low standard number one um incredibly low standard number one um incredibly low standard number one um number two uh if you actually go through number two uh if you actually go through number two uh if you actually go through and you read the complaint that South and you read the complaint that South and you read the complaint that South Africa filed um I would say uh that if Africa filed um I would say uh that if Africa filed um I would say uh that if you go through the quotes and you even you go through the quotes and you even you go through the quotes and you even follow through to the source of the follow through to the source of the follow through to the source of the quotes the misrepresentation that South quotes the misrepresentation that South quotes the misrepresentation that South Africa does and their case about all of Africa does and their case about all of Africa does and their case about all of these horrendous quotes in my opinion these horrendous quotes in my opinion these horrendous quotes in my opinion borders on criminal well 16 icj judges borders on criminal well 16 icj judges borders on criminal well 16 icj judges disagree with that's fine if 16 IG CJ disagree with that's fine if 16 IG CJ disagree with that's fine if 16 IG CJ judges disagree must be competent you judges disagree must be competent you judges disagree must be competent you know they could be but he must be all

know they could be but he must be all know they could be but he must be all even the American judge she must have even the American judge she must have even the American judge she must have been awful incompetent if she was unable been awful incompetent if she was unable been awful incompetent if she was unable to see the misrepresentations that Mr to see the misrepresentations that Mr to see the misrepresentations that Mr benell based on his Wikipedia entry was benell based on his Wikipedia entry was benell based on his Wikipedia entry was able to find so this is based on the able to find so this is based on the able to find so this is based on the official icj report that was released official icj report that was released official icj report that was released I'm not sure if you read the entire I'm not sure if you read the entire I'm not sure if you read the entire thing or that's great did you go through thing or that's great did you go through thing or that's great did you go through and actually identify any of the sources and actually identify any of the sources and actually identify any of the sources for the underlying quot actually brace for the underlying quot actually brace for the underlying quot actually brace yourself for this and M could confirm it yourself for this and M could confirm it yourself for this and M could confirm it Yaniv kogan an Israeli and Jamie Stern Yaniv kogan an Israeli and Jamie Stern Yaniv kogan an Israeli and Jamie Stern reer half Israeli they checked every reer half Israeli they checked every reer half Israeli they checked every single quote in the Hebrew original and single quote in the Hebrew original and single quote in the Hebrew original and Yaniv kogan love the guy he has Yaniv kogan love the guy he has Yaniv kogan love the guy he has terrifying powers of concentration he terrifying powers of concentration he terrifying powers of concentration he checked every single quote is that checked every single quote is that checked every single quote is that correct mine and Jaimie checked every correct mine and Jaimie checked every correct mine and Jaimie checked every single quote in the English in the single quote in the English in the single quote in the English in the context and where there were any context and where there were any context and where there were any contextual questions they told us I contextual questions they told us I contextual questions they told us I think they found one yeah I think they think they found one yeah I think they think they found one yeah I think they found one so I do not believe that found one so I do not believe that found one so I do not believe that those 16 15 judges was 15 to2 16-2 I those 16 15 judges was 15 to2 16-2 I those 16 15 judges was 15 to2 16-2 I think they're 15 in the court plus two think they're 15 in the court plus two think they're 15 in the court plus two so it's 17 So it's 15 to two uh I don't so it's 17 So it's 15 to two uh I don't so it's 17 So it's 15 to two uh I don't think those 15 judges were think those 15 judges were think those 15 judges were incompetent and I certainly don't incompetent and I certainly don't incompetent and I certainly don't believe the president of the Court an

believe the president of the Court an believe the president of the Court an American would allow herself to be duped American would allow herself to be duped American would allow herself to be duped okay let me me let read one sure so this was uh taken let read one sure so this was uh taken let read one sure so this was uh taken from the uh from the South African from the uh from the South African from the uh from the South African complaint there's tons of these but so complaint there's tons of these but so complaint there's tons of these but so here's one uh in the in the complaint here's one uh in the in the complaint here's one uh in the in the complaint for the icj they said that on the 12th for the icj they said that on the 12th for the icj they said that on the 12th of October 2023 president Isaac her of October 2023 president Isaac her of October 2023 president Isaac her Herzog made clear that Israel was not Herzog made clear that Israel was not Herzog made clear that Israel was not distinguishing between militants and distinguishing between militants and distinguishing between militants and civilians in Gaza stating in a press civilians in Gaza stating in a press civilians in Gaza stating in a press conference to foreign media in relation conference to foreign media in relation conference to foreign media in relation to Palestinians in Gaza over 1 million to Palestinians in Gaza over 1 million to Palestinians in Gaza over 1 million of whom are children quote quote it's an of whom are children quote quote it's an of whom are children quote quote it's an entire nation out there that is entire nation out there that is entire nation out there that is responsible it is not true this rhetoric responsible it is not true this rhetoric responsible it is not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware not involved about civilians not aware not involved about civilians not aware not involved it's absolutely not true and we will it's absolutely not true and we will it's absolutely not true and we will fight until we break their backbone end fight until we break their backbone end fight until we break their backbone end quote if you actually go to the news quote if you actually go to the news quote if you actually go to the news article that they even State they even article that they even State they even article that they even State they even link it in their complaint the full link it in their complaint the full link it in their complaint the full context for the quote was quote it is an context for the quote was quote it is an context for the quote was quote it is an entire nation out there that is entire nation out there that is entire nation out there that is responsible it's not true this rhetoric responsible it's not true this rhetoric responsible it's not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware not about civilians not being aware not about civilians not being aware not involved it's absolutely not true they involved it's absolutely not true they involved it's absolutely not true they could have risen up they could have could have risen up they could have could have risen up they could have fought against that evil regime which fought against that evil regime which fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in audet but we are at took over Gaza in audet but we are at took over Gaza in audet but we are at War we are defending our homes we are War we are defending our homes we are War we are defending our homes we are protecting our homes that's the truth protecting our homes that's the truth protecting our homes that's the truth and when a nation protects its home it and when a nation protects its home it and when a nation protects its home it fights and we will fight until we break fights and we will fight until we break fights and we will fight until we break their backbone he acknowledged that many their backbone he acknowledged that many their backbone he acknowledged that many Goins had nothing to do with Hamas but Goins had nothing to do with Hamas but Goins had nothing to do with Hamas but was adamant that others did quote I was adamant that others did quote I was adamant that others did quote I agree there are many innocent agree there are many innocent agree there are many innocent Palestinians who don't agree with this Palestinians who don't agree with this Palestinians who don't agree with this but if you have a missile in your but if you have a missile in your but if you have a missile in your goddamn kitchen and you want to shoot it

goddamn kitchen and you want to shoot it goddamn kitchen and you want to shoot it at me am I allowed to defend myself we at me am I allowed to defend myself we at me am I allowed to defend myself we have to defend ourselves we have the have to defend ourselves we have the have to defend ourselves we have the right to do so this is not the same as right to do so this is not the same as right to do so this is not the same as saying there's no distinction between saying there's no distinction between saying there's no distinction between militants and civilians in Gaza his militants and civilians in Gaza his militants and civilians in Gaza his statement here is actually fully statement here is actually fully statement here is actually fully compliant with international law to the compliant with international law to the compliant with international law to the letter because if you are storing mil uh letter because if you are storing mil uh letter because if you are storing mil uh military supplies in civilian areas military supplies in civilian areas military supplies in civilian areas these things become military targets and these things become military targets and these things become military targets and you're allowed to do proportionality you're allowed to do proportionality you're allowed to do proportionality assessments afterwards so if this is assessments afterwards so if this is assessments afterwards so if this is supposed to be one of many quotes that supposed to be one of many quotes that supposed to be one of many quotes that they've shown that is supposed to they've shown that is supposed to they've shown that is supposed to demonstrate uh genocidal intent but it demonstrate uh genocidal intent but it demonstrate uh genocidal intent but it is very easily explained by military is very easily explained by military is very easily explained by military intent or by a conflict between two intent or by a conflict between two intent or by a conflict between two parties I saw that press conference wait parties I saw that press conference wait parties I saw that press conference wait let me just say something all of this let me just say something all of this let me just say something all of this talk is a bit irrelevant because it talk is a bit irrelevant because it talk is a bit irrelevant because it sounds it may sound to the listeners sounds it may sound to the listeners sounds it may sound to the listeners that the the court in the hog has ruled that the the court in the hog has ruled that the the court in the hog has ruled that Israel is committing genocide but that Israel is committing genocide but that Israel is committing genocide but it hasn't has it's just is going in the it hasn't has it's just is going in the it hasn't has it's just is going in the next few years to look at the whole next few years to look at the whole next few years to look at the whole there has been no no determination at there has been no no determination at there has been no no determination at all and as as Steven says some of the all and as as Steven says some of the all and as as Steven says some of the quotes are not exactly accurate quotes quotes are not exactly accurate quotes quotes are not exactly accurate quotes or taken out or taken out or taken out characterization okay it this correct as characterization okay it this correct as characterization okay it this correct as muen put it that it'll be seven several muen put it that it'll be seven several muen put it that it'll be seven several years before the court makes a years before the court makes a years before the court makes a determination and my guess is that we'll determination and my guess is that we'll determination and my guess is that we'll determine there was no genocide that's determine there was no genocide that's determine there was no genocide that's my guess yes I'm just giving you my my guess yes I'm just giving you my my guess yes I'm just giving you my guess uh I can't predict I got it all guess uh I can't predict I got it all guess uh I can't predict I got it all wrong actually as Molen will attest I wrong actually as Molen will attest I wrong actually as Molen will attest I got it all wrong the first time I never got it all wrong the first time I never got it all wrong the first time I never thought the American judge would vote thought the American judge would vote thought the American judge would vote again would vote in favor of again would vote in favor of again would vote in favor of plausibility so you admit that you were plausibility so you admit that you were plausibility so you admit that you were wrong yeah of course I think I tell M

wrong yeah of course I think I tell M wrong yeah of course I think I tell M twice a day I was wrong about this and I twice a day I was wrong about this and I twice a day I was wrong about this and I was wrong about that I'm not wrong about was wrong about that I'm not wrong about was wrong about that I'm not wrong about the facts I try not to be but my the facts I try not to be but my the facts I try not to be but my speculations they can be wrong okay speculations they can be wrong okay speculations they can be wrong okay leaving that aside first of all as M leaving that aside first of all as M leaving that aside first of all as M pointed out there's a difference between pointed out there's a difference between pointed out there's a difference between the legal decision by the ruling and an the legal decision by the ruling and an the legal decision by the ruling and an independent judgment now South Africa independent judgment now South Africa independent judgment now South Africa was not filing a frivolous case that was was not filing a frivolous case that was was not filing a frivolous case that was 84 Pages it was single even 84 Pages be 84 Pages it was single even 84 Pages be 84 Pages it was single even 84 Pages be prous an hour and a half to read it was prous an hour and a half to read it was prous an hour and a half to read it was not a massive Cas it was single spaced not a massive Cas it was single spaced not a massive Cas it was single spaced and had literally hundreds of and had literally hundreds of and had literally hundreds of footnotes with it's possible of course footnotes with it's possible of course footnotes with it's possible of course one wasn't yeah I read the report to one wasn't yeah I read the report to one wasn't yeah I read the report to tell you the truth I followed very tell you the truth I followed very tell you the truth I followed very closely everything that's been happening closely everything that's been happening closely everything that's been happening to October 7th I was mesmerized I to October 7th I was mesmerized I to October 7th I was mesmerized I couldn't believe the comprehensiveness couldn't believe the comprehensiveness couldn't believe the comprehensiveness of that particular report number two of that particular report number two of that particular report number two there are two quite respected judges there are two quite respected judges there are two quite respected judges excuse me there were two quite respect excuse me there were two quite respect excuse me there were two quite respect Ed uh Experts of international law Ed uh Experts of international law Ed uh Experts of international law sitting on the South African panel John sitting on the South African panel John sitting on the South African panel John Dugard and vau low v l as you might know Dugard and vau low v l as you might know Dugard and vau low v l as you might know he argued the war case in 2004 before he argued the war case in 2004 before he argued the war case in 2004 before the international court of justice now the international court of justice now the international court of justice now they were not uh they were alleging they were not uh they were alleging they were not uh they were alleging genocide which in their view means the genocide which in their view means the genocide which in their view means the evidence in their minds we not yet at evidence in their minds we not yet at evidence in their minds we not yet at the court the evidence in their minds the court the evidence in their minds the court the evidence in their minds compels the conclusion that genocide is

compels the conclusion that genocide is compels the conclusion that genocide is being committed I am willing because I being committed I am willing because I being committed I am willing because I happen to know Mr Dugard personally and happen to know Mr Dugard personally and happen to know Mr Dugard personally and I've correspond with vau low I've heard I've correspond with vau low I've heard I've correspond with vau low I've heard their claim I read the report uh I would their claim I read the report uh I would their claim I read the report uh I would say they make a very strong case but say they make a very strong case but say they make a very strong case but let's agree plausible now here's a let's agree plausible now here's a let's agree plausible now here's a question if question if question if somebody somebody somebody qualifies for an Olympic team let's say qualifies for an Olympic team let's say qualifies for an Olympic team let's say a regional person qualifies a regional person qualifies a regional person qualifies for Olympic team it doesn't mean they're for Olympic team it doesn't mean they're for Olympic team it doesn't mean they're going to be on the Olympic team it going to be on the Olympic team it going to be on the Olympic team it doesn't mean they're going to win a gold doesn't mean they're going to win a gold doesn't mean they're going to win a gold medal a a silver medal or brown bronze medal a a silver medal or brown bronze medal a a silver medal or brown bronze metal they can swim that's what you're metal they can swim that's what you're metal they can swim that's what you're saying no I would say that's a very high saying no I would say that's a very high saying no I would say that's a very high bar saying they can swim to even qualify bar saying they can swim to even qualify bar saying they can swim to even qualify swim well enough to have a realistic swim well enough to have a realistic swim well enough to have a realistic Prospect so to even make it to plausible Prospect so to even make it to plausible Prospect so to even make it to plausible that is not true that is not what plaus that is not true that is not what plaus that is not true that is not what plaus means it is absolutely not you're dead means it is absolutely not you're dead means it is absolutely not you're dead wrong Mr berelli please don't teach me wrong Mr berelli please don't teach me wrong Mr berelli please don't teach me about the English language so the about the English language so the about the English language so the Declaration judge I saidil qualifying the court is not asked saidil qualifying the court is not asked at this present phase of the proceedings at this present phase of the proceedings at this present phase of the proceedings to determine whether South Africa's to determine whether South Africa's to determine whether South Africa's allegations of genocide are well founded allegations of genocide are well founded allegations of genocide are well founded they're not well founded they're not they're not well founded they're not they're not well founded they're not even well founded the you said that even well founded the you said that even well founded the you said that plausible is a high standard is plausible is a high standard is plausible is a high standard is absolutely not it is a misrepresentation absolutely not it is a misrepresentation absolutely not it is a misrepresentation of the strength of the case against of the strength of the case against of the strength of the case against Israel just like the majority of the

Israel just like the majority of the Israel just like the majority of the said itations pulled from the report that try itations pulled from the report that try to uh that actually deal with the intent to uh that actually deal with the intent to uh that actually deal with the intent part which is by the way I think you part which is by the way I think you part which is by the way I think you guys I don't know if you use the phrase guys I don't know if you use the phrase guys I don't know if you use the phrase the doo specialis that the intentional the doo specialis that the intentional the doo specialis that the intentional part of part of part of genocide the the I think it's I think genocide the the I think it's I think genocide the the I think it's I think it's called Doo specialis it is the most it's called Doo specialis it is the most it's called Doo specialis it is the most important part of genocide which is important part of genocide which is important part of genocide which is proving the special is a highly special proving the special is a highly special proving the special is a highly special intent to commit genocide it's possible intent to commit genocide it's possible intent to commit genocide it's possible Israel that's men's no Pro the men's yes Israel that's men's no Pro the men's yes Israel that's men's no Pro the men's yes I understand the state of mind but in I understand the state of mind but in I understand the state of mind but in for genocide there is it's called do for genocide there is it's called do for genocide there is it's called do specialis it's a highly special intent specialis it's a highly special intent specialis it's a highly special intent did you read the case yeah it is high did you read the case yeah it is high did you read the case yeah it is high special special special intent yes please stop displaying your intent yes please stop displaying your intent yes please stop displaying your imbecility okay I'm sorry if you think imbecility okay I'm sorry if you think imbecility okay I'm sorry if you think the Declaration of the don't put on the Declaration of the don't put on the Declaration of the don't put on public display that you're a at public display that you're a at public display that you're a at least have the self-possession to shut least have the self-possession to shut least have the self-possession to shut up did I readable putting my display on up did I readable putting my display on up did I readable putting my display on camera you're putting yours in camera you're putting yours in camera you're putting yours in books read case around four times I read books read case around four times I read books read case around four times I read all of the the uh the majority opinion all of the the uh the majority opinion all of the the uh the majority opinion the Declarations I read Aron barack's the Declarations I read Aron barack's the Declarations I read Aron barack's declaration then why are you lying and declaration then why are you lying and declaration then why are you lying and saying plaus are high saying plaus are high saying plaus are high standard because I standard because I standard because I said even reaching the Benchmark of said even reaching the Benchmark of said even reaching the Benchmark of plausibility is a very high standard in plausibility is a very high standard in plausibility is a very high standard in the world it's the equivalent of a the world it's the equivalent of a the world it's the equivalent of a regional player qualifying for Olympics regional player qualifying for Olympics regional player qualifying for Olympics it's still two steps removed you may not

it's still two steps removed you may not it's still two steps removed you may not be on the team and you may not get a be on the team and you may not get a be on the team and you may not get a medal but to get medal but to get medal but to get qualified which in this context is the qualified which in this context is the qualified which in this context is the equivalent of plausible you must be equivalent of plausible you must be equivalent of plausible you must be doing something pretty doing something pretty doing something pretty horrible as it happens as it horrible as it happens as it horrible as it happens as it happens there was no that's what the happens there was no that's what the happens there was no that's what the court R rule remember what I just told court R rule remember what I just told court R rule remember what I just told you the court I don't expect to be even you the court I don't expect to be even you the court I don't expect to be even around when the court reaches his final around when the court reaches his final around when the court reaches his final deis why why it'll take a long long time deis why why it'll take a long long time deis why why it'll take a long long time two years three years no I don't think two years three years no I don't think two years three years no I don't think it'll take two or three years Bosnia it'll take two or three years Bosnia it'll take two or three years Bosnia which was admittedly a special type of which was admittedly a special type of which was admittedly a special type of case because they were accusing Serbia case because they were accusing Serbia case because they were accusing Serbia of sponsoring the Bosnian serbs that of sponsoring the Bosnian serbs that of sponsoring the Bosnian serbs that took I think 17 years from 90 I assume took I think 17 years from 90 I assume took I think 17 years from 90 I assume they'll take two or three years but the they'll take two or three years but the they'll take two or three years but the point you're making so this is a legal point you're making so this is a legal point you're making so this is a legal something horrible must be happening to something horrible must be happening to something horrible must be happening to even achieve it's horrible it's a war even achieve it's horrible it's a war even achieve it's horrible it's a war yeah it's true yeah it's true yeah it's true they weren't they weren't rendering a they weren't they weren't rendering a they weren't they weren't rendering a ruling on a war they were rendering a ruling on a war they were rendering a ruling on a war they were rendering a ruling on a genocide and I think I think ruling on a genocide and I think I think ruling on a genocide and I think I think the suggest they said it was plausible the suggest they said it was plausible the suggest they said it was plausible they also said it was plausible that they also said it was plausible that they also said it was plausible that Israel is committing a military Israel is committing a military Israel is committing a military operation as well yeah but I think the operation as well yeah but I think the operation as well yeah but I think the problem with with your characterization problem with with your characterization problem with with your characterization is you're saying in so many words the is you're saying in so many words the is you're saying in so many words the South Africans basically only have to South Africans basically only have to South Africans basically only have to show up in court with a coherent show up in court with a coherent show up in court with a coherent statement that is correct in today's statement that is correct in today's statement that is correct in today's atmosphere that's probably correct they atmosphere that's probably correct they atmosphere that's probably correct they needed to do a lot more they they needed needed to do a lot more they they needed needed to do a lot more they they needed they needed americ Jud atmosphere americ they needed americ Jud atmosphere americ they needed americ Jud atmosphere americ judge judge judge to judges go according to what the to judges go according to what the to judges go according to what the majority want want to hear president

majority want want to hear president majority want want to hear president they needed to persuade the court that they needed to persuade the court that they needed to persuade the court that it was worth investing several years of it was worth investing several years of it was worth investing several years of their time in their time in their time in hearing they're well paid whether they hearing they're well paid whether they hearing they're well paid whether they take this case or not I mean you know take this case or not I mean you know take this case or not I mean you know they have a they have a full docket um they have a they have a full docket um they have a they have a full docket um whether they accept or reject this case whether they accept or reject this case whether they accept or reject this case and I I think I don't think we should and I I think I don't think we should and I I think I don't think we should remember what I just said they won't remember what I just said they won't remember what I just said they won't rule there was genocide remember what I rule there was genocide remember what I rule there was genocide remember what I said also I recommend people actually said also I recommend people actually said also I recommend people actually the case and follow through a lot of the the case and follow through a lot of the the case and follow through a lot of the quotes that they just don't show quotes that they just don't show quotes that they just don't show genocidal the Israeli Minister of genocidal the Israeli Minister of genocidal the Israeli Minister of Finance on the 8th of October 2023 this Finance on the 8th of October 2023 this Finance on the 8th of October 2023 this is taken from the icj this is from South is taken from the icj this is from South is taken from the icj this is from South Africa submission uh bizal smotri I Africa submission uh bizal smotri I Africa submission uh bizal smotri I can't read this stated there you go okay can't read this stated there you go okay can't read this stated there you go okay at a meeting of the Israeli cabinet that at a meeting of the Israeli cabinet that at a meeting of the Israeli cabinet that quote we need to deal a blow that hasn't quote we need to deal a blow that hasn't quote we need to deal a blow that hasn't been seen in 50 years and take down Gaza been seen in 50 years and take down Gaza been seen in 50 years and take down Gaza end quote but again if you click through end quote but again if you click through end quote but again if you click through and you read The Source their own linked and you read The Source their own linked and you read The Source their own linked Source it says as per this own source Source it says as per this own source Source it says as per this own source quote the powerful Finance Minister quote the powerful Finance Minister quote the powerful Finance Minister settler leader Bez Tri I can't pronounce settler leader Bez Tri I can't pronounce settler leader Bez Tri I can't pronounce this demanded at the cabinet meeting this demanded at the cabinet meeting this demanded at the cabinet meeting late Saturday that the Army quote hit late Saturday that the Army quote hit late Saturday that the Army quote hit Hamas brutally and not take the matter Hamas brutally and not take the matter Hamas brutally and not take the matter of the captives into significant of the captives into significant of the captives into significant consideration end quot in war as in war consideration end quot in war as in war consideration end quot in war as in war you have to be brutal end quot he was you have to be brutal end quot he was you have to be brutal end quot he was quoted as saying we need to deal a blow quoted as saying we need to deal a blow quoted as saying we need to deal a blow that hasn't been seen in 50 years and that hasn't been seen in 50 years and that hasn't been seen in 50 years and take down Gaza end quote you can't strip take down Gaza end quote you can't strip take down Gaza end quote you can't strip the quotation of Hamas a entity have war the quotation of Hamas a entity have war the quotation of Hamas a entity have war with and then Pretend There's genocidal with and then Pretend There's genocidal with and then Pretend There's genocidal intent genocide so when the ukrainians intent genocide so when the ukrainians intent genocide so when the ukrainians when the ukrainians say we need to when the ukrainians say we need to when the ukrainians say we need to Russia that's not genocide when Ukraine Russia that's not genocide when Ukraine Russia that's not genocide when Ukraine says we need to defeat Russia is that says we need to defeat Russia is that says we need to defeat Russia is that genocidal mean killing all Russian C genocidal mean killing all Russian C genocidal mean killing all Russian C Professor Mars here's another one when

Professor Mars here's another one when Professor Mars here's another one when the defense yeah ridiculous yes the defense yeah ridiculous yes the defense yeah ridiculous yes ridiculous uh the American judge he also ridiculous uh the American judge he also ridiculous uh the American judge he also doesn't determine policy the American doesn't determine policy the American doesn't determine policy the American judge the American judge read you are judge the American judge read you are judge the American judge read you are holding the American judge to you know holding the American judge to you know holding the American judge to you know well he was the president he'll well he was the president he'll well he was the president he'll Authority when it agrees with him and we Authority when it agrees with him and we Authority when it agrees with him and we won't deal with the actual facts of the won't deal with the actual facts of the won't deal with the actual facts of the matter ever okay the American judge read matter ever okay the American judge read matter ever okay the American judge read several of the quotes look at the several of the quotes look at the several of the quotes look at the American supreme court today they may American supreme court today they may American supreme court today they may support Trump shows you how Jud support Trump shows you how Jud support Trump shows you how Jud Professor Mars without going too far a Professor Mars without going too far a Professor Mars without going too far a field if you heard a field if you heard a field if you heard a statement by the defense statement by the defense statement by the defense minister the defense minister said we minister the defense minister said we minister the defense minister said we are going to prevent any food water fuel are going to prevent any food water fuel are going to prevent any food water fuel or electricity from entering Gaza do or electricity from entering Gaza do or electricity from entering Gaza do that he did Israel do that okay no I'm that he did Israel do that okay no I'm that he did Israel do that okay no I'm I'm I'm wondering what he said I'm I'm I'm wondering what he said I'm I'm I'm wondering what he said I'm asking you isn't Israeli government asking you isn't Israeli government asking you isn't Israeli government poliy talking about statements Now poliy talking about statements Now poliy talking about statements Now intent how would you interpret that intent how would you interpret that intent how would you interpret that after 1,00 of your citizens are murdered after 1,00 of your citizens are murdered after 1,00 of your citizens are murdered the way they were I would expect extreme the way they were I would expect extreme the way they were I would expect extreme statements by lots of politicians but statements by lots of politicians but statements by lots of politicians but but you're by lots of politici but you but you're by lots of politici but you but you're by lots of politici but you don't accept extreme polic but you don't don't accept extreme polic but you don't don't accept extreme polic but you don't accept he said is an Israeli policy they accept he said is an Israeli policy they accept he said is an Israeli policy they let in water they let in gas you don't let in water they let in gas you don't let in water they let in gas you don't accept but you don't accept extreme accept but you don't accept extreme accept but you don't accept extreme Palestinian statements after they lost Palestinian statements after they lost Palestinian statements after they lost their entire country not just 12200 their entire country not just 12200 their entire country not just 12200 people that's a good point no no it's a people that's a good point no no it's a people that's a good point no no it's a good point and on that uh on on that moment brief moment of uh on on that moment brief moment of agreement let's just take a quick pause agreement let's just take a quick pause agreement let's just take a quick pause we need a smoke break need a water break

we need a smoke break need a water break we need a smoke break need a water break bath break take down Gaza is not a bath break take down Gaza is not a bath break take down Gaza is not a genoci defeat Russia is a genocidal stat genoci defeat Russia is a genocidal stat genoci defeat Russia is a genocidal stat we went to war with Iraq and we wanted we went to war with Iraq and we wanted we went to war with Iraq and we wanted to destroy Iraq that was a genocidal to destroy Iraq that was a genocidal to destroy Iraq that was a genocidal statement there's a reason why genocide statement there's a reason why genocide statement there's a reason why genocide is so is such an importantly guarded is so is such an importantly guarded is so is such an importantly guarded concept and it's not to to condemn every concept and it's not to to condemn every concept and it's not to to condemn every nation that goes to nation that goes to nation that goes to war wait you do know how to pronounce my war wait you do know how to pronounce my war wait you do know how to pronounce my name are you mispronouncing it he made name are you mispronouncing it he made name are you mispronouncing it he made you into an Italian all the time by your you into an Italian all the time by your you into an Italian all the time by your solicitude for international law you solicitude for international law you solicitude for international law you should try learning it sometime it would should try learning it sometime it would should try learning it sometime it would help you sort out a lot of the civilian help you sort out a lot of the civilian help you sort out a lot of the civilian deaths unfortunately 15 judges disagree deaths unfortunately 15 judges disagree deaths unfortunately 15 judges disagree you could keep citing the judges you you could keep citing the judges you you could keep citing the judges you should actually try reading the actual should actually try reading the actual should actually try reading the actual statements this is tiring how you you've statements this is tiring how you you've statements this is tiring how you you've invited us to a tiring session yeah invited us to a tiring session yeah invited us to a tiring session yeah there you go how you guys doing okay there you go how you guys doing okay there you go how you guys doing okay okay there there are major things to okay there there are major things to okay there there are major things to discuss here not just what what some discuss here not just what what some discuss here not just what what some court is doing and going to judge in two court is doing and going to judge in two court is doing and going to judge in two years time yes okay so what you just years time yes okay so what you just years time yes okay so what you just said is my whole one of the reasons why said is my whole one of the reasons why said is my whole one of the reasons why I feel so strongly about this particular I feel so strongly about this particular I feel so strongly about this particular conflict is because there are really conflict is because there are really conflict is because there are really important things to discuss but they important things to discuss but they important things to discuss but they will never be discussed they're not will never be discussed they're not will never be discussed they're not we're not going to talk about like uh we're not going to talk about like uh we're not going to talk about like uh like uh area A and C or what a like uh area A and C or what a like uh area A and C or what a transference of ter instead we're going transference of ter instead we're going transference of ter instead we're going to talk about aparti we're not going to to talk about aparti we're not going to to talk about aparti we're not going to talk about um you know the differences talk about um you know the differences talk about um you know the differences in how do you conduct war in an urban in how do you conduct war in an urban in how do you conduct war in an urban environment where people we're just environment where people we're just environment where people we're just going to talk about genocide we're not going to talk about genocide we're not going to talk about genocide we're not going to talk about what's a good going to talk about what's a good going to talk about what's a good solution for the palan we're just going solution for the palan we're just going solution for the palan we're just going to say ethnic possible to talk be to say ethnic possible to talk be to say ethnic possible to talk be productive over the next two hours and productive over the next two hours and productive over the next two hours and talk about Solutions about Solutions I talk about Solutions about Solutions I talk about Solutions about Solutions I have no idea what to say I mean there have no idea what to say I mean there have no idea what to say I mean there there I don't see any solutions on you there I don't see any solutions on you there I don't see any solutions on you know if you wanted a positive end to know if you wanted a positive end to know if you wanted a positive end to this discussion which is what you said this discussion which is what you said this discussion which is what you said at the beginning I can't contribute to

at the beginning I can't contribute to at the beginning I can't contribute to that because I I'm pessimistic I don't that because I I'm pessimistic I don't that because I I'm pessimistic I don't see anywhere any way forward here but see anywhere any way forward here but see anywhere any way forward here but the lack of the solution is is easy the the lack of the solution is is easy the the lack of the solution is is easy the reason why the solution is hard is reason why the solution is hard is reason why the solution is hard is because the histories in the myths are because the histories in the myths are because the histories in the myths are completely there's a different factual completely there's a different factual completely there's a different factual record one of the things it' be good to record one of the things it' be good to record one of the things it' be good to talk about Solutions with the future is talk about Solutions with the future is talk about Solutions with the future is going back in all the times that has going back in all the times that has going back in all the times that has failed so every time but even at that failed so every time but even at that failed so every time but even at that we're probably not going to agree he's we're probably not going to agree he's we're probably not going to agree he's going to say you can write that I can going to say you can write that I can going to say you can write that I can predict the whole line he's going to say predict the whole line he's going to say predict the whole line he's going to say from 93 to 99 he's going to say Israel from 93 to 99 he's going to say Israel from 93 to 99 he's going to say Israel didn't adhere to the oso courts ever didn't adhere to the oso courts ever didn't adhere to the oso courts ever settlement expansion continued uh raids settlement expansion continued uh raids settlement expansion continued uh raids happened into the uh West Bank that happened into the uh West Bank that happened into the uh West Bank that there was never a legitimate that there was never a legitimate that there was never a legitimate that Netanyahu came in and violated the um Netanyahu came in and violated the um Netanyahu came in and violated the um the Y memorandum the transference he's the Y memorandum the transference he's the Y memorandum the transference he's goingon to say all of this and he's not goingon to say all of this and he's not goingon to say all of this and he's not going to bring up anything pales side going to bring up anything pales side going to bring up anything pales side and then for Camp David he's going to and then for Camp David he's going to and then for Camp David he's going to say that uh yeah that Arafat was trying say that uh yeah that Arafat was trying say that uh yeah that Arafat was trying that the maps in the territorial that the maps in the territorial that the maps in the territorial exchange wasn't good enough that they exchange wasn't good enough that they exchange wasn't good enough that they were asking Palestinians to make all the were asking Palestinians to make all the were asking Palestinians to make all the concessions that Israel would have like concessions that Israel would have like concessions that Israel would have like it's yeah well well lay it all up Lay It it's yeah well well lay it all up Lay It it's yeah well well lay it all up Lay It Up you do talk quickly you know yeah I Up you do talk quickly you know yeah I Up you do talk quickly you know yeah I know yeah any my future book should interest yeah any my future book should interest you guys oh what are you working on it you guys oh what are you working on it you guys oh what are you working on it no it's not working on it's actually no it's not working on it's actually no it's not working on it's actually going to come out ah um it deals with going to come out ah um it deals with going to come out ah um it deals with Israeli and Arab atrocities war crimes I Israeli and Arab atrocities war crimes I Israeli and Arab atrocities war crimes I call them in the 48 War that's book yeah call them in the 48 War that's book yeah call them in the 48 War that's book yeah just deals with that subject is this um just deals with that subject is this um just deals with that subject is this um cuz I know you've also uh talked about cuz I know you've also uh talked about cuz I know you've also uh talked about the closure of the archives and stuff the closure of the archives and stuff the closure of the archives and stuff well it's it's marginal they do it deals well it's it's marginal they do it deals well it's it's marginal they do it deals with that as well but they have tried to with that as well but they have tried to with that as well but they have tried to seal off documents which has already seal off documents which has already seal off documents which has already used and seen now they don't let people

used and seen now they don't let people used and seen now they don't let people see them that's happened but it's it's see them that's happened but it's it's see them that's happened but it's it's it's marginal in terms of its effect on it's marginal in terms of its effect on it's marginal in terms of its effect on on on were the British archives useful on on were the British archives useful on on were the British archives useful for you for this new book well for this for you for this new book well for this for you for this new book well for this list it's mostly Israeli archives the list it's mostly Israeli archives the list it's mostly Israeli archives the British and the Americans and the UN did British and the Americans and the UN did British and the Americans and the UN did deal with these subjects but not not as deal with these subjects but not not as deal with these subjects but not not as well as Israeli documents what's your uh well as Israeli documents what's your uh well as Israeli documents what's your uh casual count for dar it's about 100 I casual count for dar it's about 100 I casual count for dar it's about 100 I think there's agreement on that by think there's agreement on that by think there's agreement on that by Israelis and Arabs 100 105 cuz before Israelis and Arabs 100 105 cuz before Israelis and Arabs 100 105 cuz before they were they used to say 245 or 254 they were they used to say 245 or 254 they were they used to say 245 or 254 those were the figures the British and those were the figures the British and those were the figures the British and the Arabs and the hag agreed on at at the Arabs and the hag agreed on at at the Arabs and the hag agreed on at at the beginning because the Red Cross I the beginning because the Red Cross I the beginning because the Red Cross I think was the one that first put out think was the one that first put out think was the one that first put out that number I don't remember maybe it that number I don't remember maybe it that number I don't remember maybe it was what's his name Jac de reer maybe was what's his name Jac de reer maybe was what's his name Jac de reer maybe yeah maybe he he came up with that yeah maybe he he came up with that yeah maybe he he came up with that number but it was just he didn't count number but it was just he didn't count number but it was just he didn't count they didn't count bodies they just threw they didn't count bodies they just threw they didn't count bodies they just threw the number out and everybody was happy the number out and everybody was happy the number out and everybody was happy to blame the and the for you know to blame the and the for you know to blame the and the for you know killing more Arabs than actually well killing more Arabs than actually well killing more Arabs than actually well and and they put it to good use as well and and they put it to good use as well and and they put it to good use as well well they said that it helped to well they said that it helped to well they said that it helped to precipitate more evacuation so they were precipitate more evacuation so they were precipitate more evacuation so they were and as they also use that number yeah so and as they also use that number yeah so and as they also use that number yeah so first of all thank you for that heated first of all thank you for that heated first of all thank you for that heated discussion about the discussion about the discussion about the present I would love to go present I would love to go present I would love to go back into history in a way that informs back into history in a way that informs back into history in a way that informs what we can look for in a uh as a by way what we can look for in a uh as a by way what we can look for in a uh as a by way of Hope for the future so when has in of Hope for the future so when has in of Hope for the future so when has in Israel and Palestine have we been Israel and Palestine have we been Israel and Palestine have we been closest to something like a peace

closest to something like a peace closest to something like a peace settlement to something that like where settlement to something that like where settlement to something that like where both sides would be happy and enable the both sides would be happy and enable the both sides would be happy and enable the flourishing of both flourishing of both flourishing of both peoples well my my from my knowledge of peoples well my my from my knowledge of peoples well my my from my knowledge of the 120 years or so of conflict the the 120 years or so of conflict the the 120 years or so of conflict the closest I think the two sides have been closest I think the two sides have been closest I think the two sides have been to reach in some sort of to reach in some sort of to reach in some sort of settlement appears to have been in the settlement appears to have been in the settlement appears to have been in the year 2000 when Barack and then year 2000 when Barack and then year 2000 when Barack and then subsequently Clinton ER offered a subsequently Clinton ER offered a subsequently Clinton ER offered a two-state um two-state um two-state um settlement ER to PLO Palestinian settlement ER to PLO Palestinian settlement ER to PLO Palestinian Authority chairman yaser Arafat and Authority chairman yaser Arafat and Authority chairman yaser Arafat and Arafat seemed to waver he didn't Arafat seemed to waver he didn't Arafat seemed to waver he didn't immediately immediately immediately in reject what was being offered But in reject what was being offered But in reject what was being offered But ultimately came down at the end of Camp ultimately came down at the end of Camp ultimately came down at the end of Camp David in July 2000 he came came down David in July 2000 he came came down David in July 2000 he came came down against the proposals and the Clinton against the proposals and the Clinton against the proposals and the Clinton who said he wouldn't blame him later who said he wouldn't blame him later who said he wouldn't blame him later blamed Arafat for bringing down the blamed Arafat for bringing down the blamed Arafat for bringing down the summit and um not reaching a solution summit and um not reaching a solution summit and um not reaching a solution there um but I I think there on the there um but I I think there on the there um but I I think there on the table H certainly in the Clinton table H certainly in the Clinton table H certainly in the Clinton parameters of December 2000 which parameters of December 2000 which parameters of December 2000 which followed ER the proposals by Barack in followed ER the proposals by Barack in followed ER the proposals by Barack in July um the Palestinians were offered July um the Palestinians were offered July um the Palestinians were offered the best deal they're ever going to get the best deal they're ever going to get the best deal they're ever going to get from Israel unless Israel is destroyed from Israel unless Israel is destroyed from Israel unless Israel is destroyed and then they'll just be a Palestinian and then they'll just be a Palestinian and then they'll just be a Palestinian Arab state but um the best deal that Arab state but um the best deal that Arab state but um the best deal that Israel could ever offer them they were Israel could ever offer them they were Israel could ever offer them they were offered which essentially was 95% of the offered which essentially was 95% of the offered which essentially was 95% of the West Bank East Jerusalem half of the old

West Bank East Jerusalem half of the old West Bank East Jerusalem half of the old city of Jerusalem some sort of joint city of Jerusalem some sort of joint city of Jerusalem some sort of joint control of the Temple Mount and the Gaza control of the Temple Mount and the Gaza control of the Temple Mount and the Gaza Strip of course in full and the Strip of course in full and the Strip of course in full and the Palestinians said no to this deal and Palestinians said no to this deal and Palestinians said no to this deal and nobody really knows why Arafat said no nobody really knows why Arafat said no nobody really knows why Arafat said no that is some people think he was trying that is some people think he was trying that is some people think he was trying to hold out for slightly better term to hold out for slightly better term to hold out for slightly better term um but my my reading is that he um but my my reading is that he um but my my reading is that he was constitutionally psychologically was constitutionally psychologically was constitutionally psychologically incapable of signing off in a two-state incapable of signing off in a two-state incapable of signing off in a two-state deal meaning acceptance of the existence deal meaning acceptance of the existence deal meaning acceptance of the existence of a Jewish State this was really the of a Jewish State this was really the of a Jewish State this was really the problem and of Israel or of a Jewish problem and of Israel or of a Jewish problem and of Israel or of a Jewish state of a Jewish State the Jewish state state of a Jewish State the Jewish state state of a Jewish State the Jewish state of Israel he wasn't willing to share of Israel he wasn't willing to share of Israel he wasn't willing to share Palestine with the Jews and put his name Palestine with the Jews and put his name Palestine with the Jews and put his name to that I I think he just couldn't do it to that I I think he just couldn't do it to that I I think he just couldn't do it that's my reading but some people say it that's my reading but some people say it that's my reading but some people say it was because the terms were insufficient was because the terms were insufficient was because the terms were insufficient and he was willing but was waiting for and he was willing but was waiting for and he was willing but was waiting for slightly better terms I don't I don't I slightly better terms I don't I don't I slightly better terms I don't I don't I don't buy that I don't think so but don't buy that I don't think so but don't buy that I don't think so but other people disagree with me on this other people disagree with me on this other people disagree with me on this what what do you think well just briefly what what do you think well just briefly what what do you think well just briefly in response in response in response um Arafat formerly recognized Israel in um Arafat formerly recognized Israel in um Arafat formerly recognized Israel in in 1993 yeah earlier um I don't I don't in 1993 yeah earlier um I don't I don't in 1993 yeah earlier um I don't I don't think actually that in think actually that in think actually that in 201201 uh a genuine um resolution was on 201201 uh a genuine um resolution was on 201201 uh a genuine um resolution was on offer because I think the maximum Israel offer because I think the maximum Israel offer because I think the maximum Israel was prepared to offer admittedly more was prepared to offer admittedly more was prepared to offer admittedly more than it had been prepared to offer in than it had been prepared to offer in than it had been prepared to offer in the past fell short of the minimum that the past fell short of the minimum that the past fell short of the minimum that the Palestinians consider to be the Palestinians consider to be the Palestinians consider to be reasonable two-state settlement bearing

reasonable two-state settlement bearing reasonable two-state settlement bearing in mind um that as of in mind um that as of in mind um that as of 1949 uh Israel controlled 78% of the 1949 uh Israel controlled 78% of the 1949 uh Israel controlled 78% of the British Mandate of Palestine um the British Mandate of Palestine um the British Mandate of Palestine um the Palestinians were seeking a state on the Palestinians were seeking a state on the Palestinians were seeking a state on the remaining 22% and this was apparently remaining 22% and this was apparently remaining 22% and this was apparently too much for Israel my my response to too much for Israel my my response to too much for Israel my my response to your question would be wait wait they your question would be wait wait they your question would be wait wait they were being offered something like 22 or were being offered something like 22 or were being offered something like 22 or 21% they were being offered I think um 21% they were being offered I think um 21% they were being offered I think um less than a withdrawal to the 1967 less than a withdrawal to the 1967 less than a withdrawal to the 1967 borders with mutual and minor and borders with mutual and minor and borders with mutual and minor and reciprocal land swaps and the just reciprocal land swaps and the just reciprocal land swaps and the just resolution of uh the refugee problem was resolution of uh the refugee problem was resolution of uh the refugee problem was one of the question yes um you know I I one of the question yes um you know I I one of the question yes um you know I I worked for a number of years um with um worked for a number of years um with um worked for a number of years um with um uh International CR crisis group and my uh International CR crisis group and my uh International CR crisis group and my boss at the time was Rob Mali who was boss at the time was Rob Mali who was boss at the time was Rob Mali who was one of the American officials pres one of the American officials pres one of the American officials pres thrown out of the state department thrown out of the state department thrown out of the state department whatever the point I'm the point I want whatever the point I'm the point I want whatever the point I'm the point I want to make about um uh Rob was he wrote I to make about um uh Rob was he wrote I to make about um uh Rob was he wrote I think a very perceptive article in 2001 think a very perceptive article in 2001 think a very perceptive article in 2001 in the New York Review books I know that in the New York Review books I know that in the New York Review books I know that you and ahud Barack have had a debate you and ahud Barack have had a debate you and ahud Barack have had a debate with them but I think he gives a very with them but I think he gives a very with them but I think he gives a very compelling reason of why and how um uh compelling reason of why and how um uh compelling reason of why and how um uh Camp uh Camp David failed but rather Camp uh Camp David failed but rather Camp uh Camp David failed but rather than going into that I'll he wrote that than going into that I'll he wrote that than going into that I'll he wrote that together with Hussein ARA husin ARA yes together with Hussein ARA husin ARA yes together with Hussein ARA husin ARA yes who was not at Camp David um but in who was not at Camp David um but in who was not at Camp David um but in response to your question um I think response to your question um I think response to your question um I think there could have been a real possibility

there could have been a real possibility there could have been a real possibility of Israeli Palestinian and Arab Israeli of Israeli Palestinian and Arab Israeli of Israeli Palestinian and Arab Israeli peace in the mid1 peace in the mid1 peace in the mid1 1970s in the wake of the 1973 October 1970s in the wake of the 1973 October 1970s in the wake of the 1973 October War um uh I'll I'll recall that in War um uh I'll I'll recall that in War um uh I'll I'll recall that in 1971 mosid Dean Israel's uh defense 1971 mosid Dean Israel's uh defense 1971 mosid Dean Israel's uh defense minister at the time uh full of minister at the time uh full of minister at the time uh full of triumphalism about Israel's uh victory triumphalism about Israel's uh victory triumphalism about Israel's uh victory in in in 1967 speaking to a group of Israeli 1967 speaking to a group of Israeli 1967 speaking to a group of Israeli military veterans stated you know if I military veterans stated you know if I military veterans stated you know if I had to choose between um sh without had to choose between um sh without had to choose between um sh without peace or peace without sh this is peace or peace without sh this is peace or peace without sh this is referring to the um Resort and an an referring to the um Resort and an an referring to the um Resort and an an Egyptian s which was then under Israeli Egyptian s which was then under Israeli Egyptian s which was then under Israeli occupation Dean said I will choose for occupation Dean said I will choose for occupation Dean said I will choose for sh without peace um then the 1973 war sh without peace um then the 1973 war sh without peace um then the 1973 war came along and um uh I think Israeli came along and um uh I think Israeli came along and um uh I think Israeli calculations began to change very calculations began to change very calculations began to change very significantly and I think it was in that significantly and I think it was in that significantly and I think it was in that context that had there been a context that had there been a context that had there been a joint us Soviet um push for um uh an joint us Soviet um push for um uh an joint us Soviet um push for um uh an Arab Israeli and Israeli Palestinian Arab Israeli and Israeli Palestinian Arab Israeli and Israeli Palestinian resolution that incorporated both an resolution that incorporated both an resolution that incorporated both an Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 lines and Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 lines and Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 lines and the establishment of a Palestinian State the establishment of a Palestinian State the establishment of a Palestinian State um in in the occupied territories I

um in in the occupied territories I um in in the occupied territories I think it there was a very reasonable think it there was a very reasonable think it there was a very reasonable Prospect for that being achieved it Prospect for that being achieved it Prospect for that being achieved it ended up being aborted I think um uh for ended up being aborted I think um uh for ended up being aborted I think um uh for several reasons and ultimately um the several reasons and ultimately um the several reasons and ultimately um the Egyptian uh president Anar Sadat um Egyptian uh president Anar Sadat um Egyptian uh president Anar Sadat um decided uh for reasons we can discuss decided uh for reasons we can discuss decided uh for reasons we can discuss later to launch a separate unilateral later to launch a separate unilateral later to launch a separate unilateral Initiative for um Israeli Egyptian Initiative for um Israeli Egyptian Initiative for um Israeli Egyptian rather than Arab Israeli peace and I rather than Arab Israeli peace and I rather than Arab Israeli peace and I think once that set in motion um the think once that set in motion um the think once that set in motion um the prospects uh disappeared because Israel prospects uh disappeared because Israel prospects uh disappeared because Israel essentially saw its most powerful essentially saw its most powerful essentially saw its most powerful adversary removed from the equation and adversary removed from the equation and adversary removed from the equation and felt that this would give it a free hand felt that this would give it a free hand felt that this would give it a free hand in the occupied territories also in in the occupied territories also in in the occupied territories also in Lebanon to get rid of the PLO and so on Lebanon to get rid of the PLO and so on Lebanon to get rid of the PLO and so on so um you know and you ask when were we so um you know and you ask when were we so um you know and you ask when were we closest and I can't give you an answer closest and I can't give you an answer closest and I can't give you an answer of when we were closest I can only tell of when we were closest I can only tell of when we were closest I can only tell you when I think we we could have been you when I think we we could have been you when I think we we could have been uh close and that was a that was a lost uh close and that was a that was a lost uh close and that was a that was a lost opportunity um if we look at the opportunity um if we look at the opportunity um if we look at the situation today you know there's been a situation today you know there's been a situation today you know there's been a lot of lot of lot of discussion about a two-state settlement discussion about a two-state settlement discussion about a two-state settlement my own View and I've I've written about my own View and I've I've written about my own View and I've I've written about this uh I don't I don't bu the arguments this uh I don't I don't bu the arguments this uh I don't I don't bu the arguments of the naysayers that we have passed uh of the naysayers that we have passed uh of the naysayers that we have passed uh the so-called point of no return with the so-called point of no return with the so-called point of no return with respect to a two-state settlement respect to a two-state settlement respect to a two-state settlement certainly if you look at the Israeli

certainly if you look at the Israeli certainly if you look at the Israeli position in the occupied territories I position in the occupied territories I position in the occupied territories I would argue it's more tenuous than was would argue it's more tenuous than was would argue it's more tenuous than was the French position in Algeria in the French position in Algeria in the French position in Algeria in 1954 then was a British position in 1954 then was a British position in 1954 then was a British position in Ireland in Ireland in Ireland in 1916 then was the Ethiopian position in 1916 then was the Ethiopian position in 1916 then was the Ethiopian position in uh itria in 1990 and so as a matter of uh itria in 1990 and so as a matter of uh itria in 1990 and so as a matter of practicality as a matter of principle I practicality as a matter of principle I practicality as a matter of principle I do think um the establishment of a do think um the establishment of a do think um the establishment of a Palestinian State uh in in the occupied Palestinian State uh in in the occupied Palestinian State uh in in the occupied territories remains realistic I think territories remains realistic I think territories remains realistic I think the question that we now need to ask the question that we now need to ask the question that we now need to ask ourselves it's one I'm certainly asking ourselves it's one I'm certainly asking ourselves it's one I'm certainly asking myself um since October 7th and looking myself um since October 7th and looking myself um since October 7th and looking at Israel's genocidal campaign but also at Israel's genocidal campaign but also at Israel's genocidal campaign but also looking at larger questions is it looking at larger questions is it looking at larger questions is it desirable can you have peace with what desirable can you have peace with what desirable can you have peace with what increasingly appears to be an increasingly appears to be an increasingly appears to be an irrational genocidal state that seeks to irrational genocidal state that seeks to irrational genocidal state that seeks to confront and resolve each and every confront and resolve each and every confront and resolve each and every political challenge with political challenge with political challenge with violence and that reacts to its failure violence and that reacts to its failure violence and that reacts to its failure to to to achieve solutions to political um achieve solutions to political um achieve solutions to political um challenges with violence by applying challenges with violence by applying challenges with violence by applying even more violence that has an even more violence that has an even more violence that has an insatiable Lust For Palestinian insatiable Lust For Palestinian insatiable Lust For Palestinian territory um that you know a genocidal territory um that you know a genocidal territory um that you know a genocidal apartheid state that seems increasingly

apartheid state that seems increasingly apartheid state that seems increasingly incapable of even conceiving of peaceful incapable of even conceiving of peaceful incapable of even conceiving of peaceful coexistence um uh with with the other coexistence um uh with with the other coexistence um uh with with the other people on that land um so I'm very people on that land um so I'm very people on that land um so I'm very pessimistic that a a solution is pessimistic that a a solution is pessimistic that a a solution is possible I look at um I grew up um in possible I look at um I grew up um in possible I look at um I grew up um in Western Europe in the long shadow of the Western Europe in the long shadow of the Western Europe in the long shadow of the second world war um I think we can all second world war um I think we can all second world war um I think we can all agree that there could have been no agree that there could have been no agree that there could have been no peace in Europe um had certain regimes peace in Europe um had certain regimes peace in Europe um had certain regimes on that continent not been removed from on that continent not been removed from on that continent not been removed from Power um I look at um uh southeast Asia Power um I look at um uh southeast Asia Power um I look at um uh southeast Asia and the late and the late and the late 1970s and I think we're all agreed that 1970s and I think we're all agreed that 1970s and I think we're all agreed that there could not have been peace in that there could not have been peace in that there could not have been peace in that region had the K Rouge uh not been region had the K Rouge uh not been region had the K Rouge uh not been ousted I look at Southern Africa during ousted I look at Southern Africa during ousted I look at Southern Africa during the the the 1990s and I think we can all be agreed 1990s and I think we can all be agreed 1990s and I think we can all be agreed that had the white minority regimes of that had the white minority regimes of that had the white minority regimes of um that ruled Zimbabwe and South Africa um that ruled Zimbabwe and South Africa um that ruled Zimbabwe and South Africa not been dismantled there could not have not been dismantled there could not have not been dismantled there could not have been peace in that region and although I been peace in that region and although I been peace in that region and although I think it's worth having a think it's worth having a think it's worth having a discussion um I do think it's now a discussion um I do think it's now a discussion um I do think it's now a legitimate question to ask can there be legitimate question to ask can there be legitimate question to ask can there be peace um peace um peace um without dismantling uh the Zionist uh without dismantling uh the Zionist uh without dismantling uh the Zionist uh regime and I make a very clear regime and I make a very clear regime and I make a very clear distinction between the Israeli state distinction between the Israeli state distinction between the Israeli state and its institutions on the one hand um and its institutions on the one hand um and its institutions on the one hand um and the Israeli people who I think and the Israeli people who I think and the Israeli people who I think regardless of our discussion uh about

regardless of our discussion uh about regardless of our discussion uh about the history I think you can now talk the history I think you can now talk the history I think you can now talk about an Israeli people and a people um about an Israeli people and a people um about an Israeli people and a people um that have developed uh rights over time that have developed uh rights over time that have developed uh rights over time and um a formula for peaceful and um a formula for peaceful and um a formula for peaceful coexistence with them uh will need to be coexistence with them uh will need to be coexistence with them uh will need to be found which is a separate matter from uh found which is a separate matter from uh found which is a separate matter from uh dismantling um the Israeli state and its dismantling um the Israeli state and its dismantling um the Israeli state and its institutions and again I haven't reached institutions and again I haven't reached institutions and again I haven't reached clear conclusions about this except to clear conclusions about this except to clear conclusions about this except to say as a practical matter I think a say as a practical matter I think a say as a practical matter I think a two-state uh settlement remains uh uh two-state uh settlement remains uh uh two-state uh settlement remains uh uh feasible but I think there are very feasible but I think there are very feasible but I think there are very legitimate questions about its legitimate questions about its legitimate questions about its desirability um and about whether peace desirability um and about whether peace desirability um and about whether peace can be achieved in the Middle East um can be achieved in the Middle East um can be achieved in the Middle East um with the Persistence of an irrational with the Persistence of an irrational with the Persistence of an irrational genocidal aparti uh regime particularly genocidal aparti uh regime particularly genocidal aparti uh regime particularly because Israeli Society is um uh because Israeli Society is um uh because Israeli Society is um uh beginning to develop um many extremely beginning to develop um many extremely beginning to develop um many extremely extremely uh tasteful supremacist uh extremely uh tasteful supremacist uh extremely uh tasteful supremacist uh dehumanizing uh aspects that I think dehumanizing uh aspects that I think dehumanizing uh aspects that I think also stand in the way of uh coexistence also stand in the way of uh coexistence also stand in the way of uh coexistence that are being fed by this uh that are being fed by this uh that are being fed by this uh regime so if you look back into history regime so if you look back into history regime so if you look back into history when we're closest to peace and do you when we're closest to peace and do you when we're closest to peace and do you draw any hope from any of them um I feel draw any hope from any of them um I feel draw any hope from any of them um I feel like in 2000 I feel like the deal that like in 2000 I feel like the deal that like in 2000 I feel like the deal that was present uh at least at the end of

was present uh at least at the end of was present uh at least at the end of the taba Summit I think in terms of what the taba Summit I think in terms of what the taba Summit I think in terms of what Israel I think had the to give and what Israel I think had the to give and what Israel I think had the to give and what the Palestinians would have gotten would the Palestinians would have gotten would the Palestinians would have gotten would have definitely been the most agreeable have definitely been the most agreeable have definitely been the most agreeable between the two parties um I don't know between the two parties um I don't know between the two parties um I don't know if in 73 I'm not sure if the appetite if in 73 I'm not sure if the appetite if in 73 I'm not sure if the appetite would have ever been there for the Arab would have ever been there for the Arab would have ever been there for the Arab states to negotiate alongside the states to negotiate alongside the states to negotiate alongside the Palestinians I know that um in Jordan Palestinians I know that um in Jordan Palestinians I know that um in Jordan there was no love for the Palestinians there was no love for the Palestinians there was no love for the Palestinians after you know 1970 after Black after you know 1970 after Black after you know 1970 after Black September um I know that sedat had no September um I know that sedat had no September um I know that sedat had no love for the Palestinians um due to love for the Palestinians um due to love for the Palestinians um due to their associ association with the Muslim their associ association with the Muslim their associ association with the Muslim brotherhoods attempted assassinations in brotherhoods attempted assassinations in brotherhoods attempted assassinations in Egypt um sorry which PLO in the Muslim Egypt um sorry which PLO in the Muslim Egypt um sorry which PLO in the Muslim Brotherhood Sadat was upset because Brotherhood Sadat was upset because Brotherhood Sadat was upset because there were attempted assassinations by there were attempted assassinations by there were attempted assassinations by people in oh no an assassination um it people in oh no an assassination um it people in oh no an assassination um it was a personal friend of his Yu alai I was a personal friend of his Yu alai I was a personal friend of his Yu alai I can't pronounce that was assassinated can't pronounce that was assassinated can't pronounce that was assassinated cyress by AED by the ab cyress by AED by the ab cyress by AED by the ab organization aded he says much belongs organization aded he says much belongs organization aded he says much belongs to group not directly but I think that to group not directly but I think that to group not directly but I think that um there was a history of um the um there was a history of um the um there was a history of um the Palestinians sometimes uh fighting with Palestinians sometimes uh fighting with Palestinians sometimes uh fighting with their neighboring states that were their neighboring states that were their neighboring states that were hosting them if they weren't getting the hosting them if they weren't getting the hosting them if they weren't getting the political concessions they wanted um the political concessions they wanted um the political concessions they wanted um the assassination of the Jordanian King in assassination of the Jordanian King in assassination of the Jordanian King in 51 might be another example of that in 51 might be another example of that in 51 might be another example of that in Jordan um it it feels like over a long Jordan um it it feels like over a long Jordan um it it feels like over a long period of time it feels like the period of time it feels like the period of time it feels like the Palestinians have been kind of told from Palestinians have been kind of told from Palestinians have been kind of told from the neighboring Arab states that if they the neighboring Arab states that if they the neighboring Arab states that if they just continue to enact violence whether just continue to enact violence whether just continue to enact violence whether in Israel or abroad that eventually a in Israel or abroad that eventually a in Israel or abroad that eventually a state will materialize somehow uh I state will materialize somehow uh I state will materialize somehow uh I don't think it's gotten them any closer don't think it's gotten them any closer don't think it's gotten them any closer to a state if anything I think it's to a state if anything I think it's to a state if anything I think it's taken them farther and farther and taken them farther and farther and taken them farther and farther and farther away from one and I think as

farther away from one and I think as farther away from one and I think as long as the hyperbolic language is long as the hyperbolic language is long as the hyperbolic language is continually employed internationally continually employed internationally continually employed internationally the idea that Israel is committing a the idea that Israel is committing a the idea that Israel is committing a genocide the idea that there is an genocide the idea that there is an genocide the idea that there is an apartheid the idea that they live in a apartheid the idea that they live in a apartheid the idea that they live in a concentration camp all of these words I concentration camp all of these words I concentration camp all of these words I think further The Narrative for the think further The Narrative for the think further The Narrative for the Palestinians that Israel is an evil Palestinians that Israel is an evil Palestinians that Israel is an evil state that needs to be dismantled um I state that needs to be dismantled um I state that needs to be dismantled um I mean you said as much about the mean you said as much about the mean you said as much about the institution at least of the Zionist institution at least of the Zionist institution at least of the Zionist government uh Israel's government is government uh Israel's government is government uh Israel's government is probably not going anywhere all of the probably not going anywhere all of the probably not going anywhere all of the other surrounding Arab states have other surrounding Arab states have other surrounding Arab states have accepted that or at least most of them accepted that or at least most of them accepted that or at least most of them down in the Gulf Egypt and Jordan have down in the Gulf Egypt and Jordan have down in the Gulf Egypt and Jordan have accepted that uh the Palestinians need accepted that uh the Palestinians need accepted that uh the Palestinians need to accept it too the the Israeli State to accept it too the the Israeli State to accept it too the the Israeli State or the state apparatus is not going or the state apparatus is not going or the state apparatus is not going anywhere and at some point they need to anywhere and at some point they need to anywhere and at some point they need to realize like like hey we need a leader realize like like hey we need a leader realize like like hey we need a leader that's going to come out and represent that's going to come out and represent that's going to come out and represent us represent all of us is willing to us represent all of us is willing to us represent all of us is willing to take political risks is willing to take political risks is willing to take political risks is willing to negotiate some lasting peace for us and negotiate some lasting peace for us and negotiate some lasting peace for us and it's not going to be the International it's not going to be the International it's not going to be the International Community or some invocation of Community or some invocation of Community or some invocation of international law or some invocation of international law or some invocation of international law or some invocation of morality or Justice that's going to morality or Justice that's going to morality or Justice that's going to extricate us from this conflict it's extricate us from this conflict it's extricate us from this conflict it's going to take some actual difficult going to take some actual difficult going to take some actual difficult political maneuvering on the ground of political maneuvering on the ground of political maneuvering on the ground of accepting Israel of accepting Israel accepting Israel of accepting Israel accepting Israel of accepting Israel which they formally did in 1993 which which they formally did in 1993 which which they formally did in 1993 which they formally did in 1993 yeah but then they formally did in 1993 yeah but then they formally did in 1993 yeah but then no no lasting came after that in 2000 no no no lasting came after that in 2000 no no no lasting came after that in 2000 no because uh 1993 was not a peace because uh 1993 was not a peace because uh 1993 was not a peace agreement sure the oso courts wer final agreement sure the oso courts wer final agreement sure the oso courts wer final solution or an interim an interim solution or an interim an interim solution or an interim an interim agreement and um Palestinians actually agreement and um Palestinians actually agreement and um Palestinians actually began clamoring for commencing the the began clamoring for commencing the the began clamoring for commencing the the permanent status uh resolutions on permanent status uh resolutions on permanent status uh resolutions on schedule and the Israelis kept delaying schedule and the Israelis kept delaying schedule and the Israelis kept delaying them in fact they only began I believe them in fact they only began I believe them in fact they only began I believe in in in 99 under American pressure on on the

99 under American pressure on on the 99 under American pressure on on the Israelis I think you're being a bit Israelis I think you're being a bit Israelis I think you're being a bit one-sided both sides didn't one-sided both sides didn't one-sided both sides didn't fulfill the promise of Oso and the steps fulfill the promise of Oso and the steps fulfill the promise of Oso and the steps needed for Oso there was Palestinian needed for Oso there was Palestinian needed for Oso there was Palestinian terrorism which accompanied Israel's terrorism which accompanied Israel's terrorism which accompanied Israel's expansion of settlements and other expansion of settlements and other expansion of settlements and other things the two things fed each other and things the two things fed each other and things the two things fed each other and led to what happened in 2000 which was a led to what happened in 2000 which was a led to what happened in 2000 which was a breakdown of the talks altoe when the breakdown of the talks altoe when the breakdown of the talks altoe when the Palestinians said no but I I think Palestinians said no but I I think Palestinians said no but I I think there's a I I don't I don't agree there's a I I don't I don't agree there's a I I don't I don't agree incidentally with this definition of incidentally with this definition of incidentally with this definition of Israel or the Israeli State as a Israel or the Israeli State as a Israel or the Israeli State as a apartheid it's not there is a some sort apartheid it's not there is a some sort apartheid it's not there is a some sort of apartheid going on in the West Bank of apartheid going on in the West Bank of apartheid going on in the West Bank the Israeli regime itself is not an the Israeli regime itself is not an the Israeli regime itself is not an apartheid regime that is nonsense by any apartheid regime that is nonsense by any apartheid regime that is nonsense by any definition of aparti which well by by definition of aparti which well by by definition of aparti which well by by the formal definition I think it the formal definition I think it the formal definition I think it qualifies no it doesn't qualify a aparti qualifies no it doesn't qualify a aparti qualifies no it doesn't qualify a aparti is a race race-based distinction between is a race race-based distinction between is a race race-based distinction between different segments of the population and different segments of the population and different segments of the population and some of them don't have any some of them don't have any some of them don't have any representation at all like the blacks in representation at all like the blacks in representation at all like the blacks in South Africa no rights at all in Israel South Africa no rights at all in Israel South Africa no rights at all in Israel in Israel itself the in Israel itself the in Israel itself the the minority the Arabs do have the minority the Arabs do have the minority the Arabs do have representation do have rights and so on representation do have rights and so on representation do have rights and so on I don't think Israel is also genocidal I I don't think Israel is also genocidal I I don't think Israel is also genocidal I don't think it's been genocidal it don't think it's been genocidal it don't think it's been genocidal it wasn't so in 48 it wasn't so in ' 67 and wasn't so in 48 it wasn't so in ' 67 and wasn't so in 48 it wasn't so in ' 67 and it hasn't been recently in my view um it hasn't been recently in my view um it hasn't been recently in my view um and talk about dismantling Israel and and talk about dismantling Israel and and talk about dismantling Israel and that's what you're talking about um that's what you're talking about um that's what you're talking about um is I think Stephen said it correctly is is I think Stephen said it correctly is is I think Stephen said it correctly is counterproductive it just pushes counterproductive it just pushes counterproductive it just pushes Israelis further away from willing to Israelis further away from willing to Israelis further away from willing to give Palestinians anything please nor

give Palestinians anything please nor give Palestinians anything please nor tell me you have something optimistic to tell me you have something optimistic to tell me you have something optimistic to say optimistic to say no I uh even say optimistic to say no I uh even say optimistic to say no I uh even though I agree I've thought about it a though I agree I've thought about it a though I agree I've thought about it a lot and I agree with M's uh lot and I agree with M's uh lot and I agree with M's uh analysis um I'm not really in the analysis um I'm not really in the analysis um I'm not really in the business of punditry I rather look at business of punditry I rather look at business of punditry I rather look at the historical record where I feel more the historical record where I feel more the historical record where I feel more comfortable and I feel on Terra Firma so comfortable and I feel on Terra Firma so comfortable and I feel on Terra Firma so I'd like to just go through that uh I I'd like to just go through that uh I I'd like to just go through that uh I don't quite I agree and I disagree with don't quite I agree and I disagree with don't quite I agree and I disagree with Moen on the 73 issue after the 1973 War Moen on the 73 issue after the 1973 War Moen on the 73 issue after the 1973 War uh it was clear that Israel was uh it was clear that Israel was uh it was clear that Israel was surprised by what happened during the surprised by what happened during the surprised by what happened during the war and war and war and um uh it took a big hit the estimates um uh it took a big hit the estimates um uh it took a big hit the estimates are I don't know what numbers you used are I don't know what numbers you used are I don't know what numbers you used but I hear between two and 3,000 Israeli but I hear between two and 3,000 Israeli but I hear between two and 3,000 Israeli soldiers were killed uh during the 19 soldiers were killed uh during the 19 soldiers were killed uh during the 19 2500 yeah 2700 okay so I got it right I 2500 yeah 2700 okay so I got it right I 2500 yeah 2700 okay so I got it right I read different numbers that's you know read different numbers that's you know read different numbers that's you know it's a very large number uh of Israelis it's a very large number uh of Israelis it's a very large number uh of Israelis who were killed there were moments at who were killed there were moments at who were killed there were moments at the beginning of the war where there was the beginning of the war where there was the beginning of the war where there was a fear that this might be it uh in there a fear that this might be it uh in there a fear that this might be it uh in there wasn't wasn't this is non everybody wasn't wasn't this is non everybody wasn't wasn't this is non everybody forgets isra Israel's Atomic Weaponry I forgets isra Israel's Atomic Weaponry I forgets isra Israel's Atomic Weaponry I know but so how could they have been know but so how could they have been know but so how could they have been defeated talk about the collapse of the defeated talk about the collapse of the defeated talk about the collapse of the third temp he did but that but it was third temp he did but that but it was third temp he did but that but it was hysterical and silly because isra hadic hysterical and silly because isra hadic hysterical and silly because isra hadic weapons they wanted to stop syrians or weapons they wanted to stop syrians or weapons they wanted to stop syrians or thep we're talking about perceptions thep we're talking about perceptions thep we're talking about perceptions yeah I'm not I'm not I can't tell you if yeah I'm not I'm not I can't tell you if yeah I'm not I'm not I can't tell you if he was historical or not no he was the

he was historical or not no he was the he was historical or not no he was the same room with him I'm just saying let's same room with him I'm just saying let's same room with him I'm just saying let's not bog down on that uh the war is over not bog down on that uh the war is over not bog down on that uh the war is over and when President Carter comes into and when President Carter comes into and when President Carter comes into Power Carter was an extremely smart guy Power Carter was an extremely smart guy Power Carter was an extremely smart guy Jimmy Carter extremely smart guy and he Jimmy Carter extremely smart guy and he Jimmy Carter extremely smart guy and he was very fixed on details extreme he was was very fixed on details extreme he was was very fixed on details extreme he was probably the most impressive of modern probably the most impressive of modern probably the most impressive of modern American presidents in my opinion by a American presidents in my opinion by a American presidents in my opinion by a wide margin and he was determined to wide margin and he was determined to wide margin and he was determined to resolve the conflict uh on a on a big resolve the conflict uh on a on a big resolve the conflict uh on a on a big scale on the Arab Israeli scale on the scale on the Arab Israeli scale on the scale on the Arab Israeli scale on the palestin palestin palestin inian issue he wouldn't go past what he inian issue he wouldn't go past what he inian issue he wouldn't go past what he called a Palestinian Homeland he would called a Palestinian Homeland he would called a Palestinian Homeland he would Palestinian national home the Palestinian national home the Palestinian national home the Palestinian national home he wouldn't go Palestinian national home he wouldn't go Palestinian national home he wouldn't go as far as a Palestinian State uh I'm not as far as a Palestinian State uh I'm not as far as a Palestinian State uh I'm not going to go into the details of that I I going to go into the details of that I I going to go into the details of that I I don't think realistically given the don't think realistically given the don't think realistically given the political balance of forces that was political balance of forces that was political balance of forces that was going to happen but that's a separate going to happen but that's a separate going to happen but that's a separate issue let's get to the issue ah hand issue let's get to the issue ah hand issue let's get to the issue ah hand namely what is the obstacle or what has namely what is the obstacle or what has namely what is the obstacle or what has been the obstacle since the early 1970s been the obstacle since the early 1970s been the obstacle since the early 1970s since rough since rough since rough 1974 the Palestinians have accepted the 1974 the Palestinians have accepted the 1974 the Palestinians have accepted the two-state settlement in the June 1967 two-state settlement in the June 1967 two-state settlement in the June 1967 border now as it got as more pressure border now as it got as more pressure border now as it got as more pressure was exerted on Israel because the was exerted on Israel because the was exerted on Israel because the Palestinians seemed reasonable the Palestinians seemed reasonable the Palestinians seemed reasonable the Israelis to quote the Israeli political Israelis to quote the Israeli political Israelis to quote the Israeli political scientist avner Yan he since passed from scientist avner Yan he since passed from scientist avner Yan he since passed from the scene he said Yaniv in his book the scene he said Yaniv in his book the scene he said Yaniv in his book dilemas of security he said that the big dilemas of security he said that the big dilemas of security he said that the big palestin big Israeli fear was what he palestin big Israeli fear was what he palestin big Israeli fear was what he called the Palestinian peace offensive

called the Palestinian peace offensive called the Palestinian peace offensive that was their worry that the that was their worry that the that was their worry that the Palestinians were becoming too moderate Palestinians were becoming too moderate Palestinians were becoming too moderate and unless you understand that you can't and unless you understand that you can't and unless you understand that you can't understand the June 1982 Lebanon war the understand the June 1982 Lebanon war the understand the June 1982 Lebanon war the purpose of the June 1982 Lebanon war was purpose of the June 1982 Lebanon war was purpose of the June 1982 Lebanon war was to liquidate the PLO in southern Lebanon to liquidate the PLO in southern Lebanon to liquidate the PLO in southern Lebanon because they were too moderate the because they were too moderate the because they were too moderate the Palestinian peace offensive I'm going to Palestinian peace offensive I'm going to Palestinian peace offensive I'm going to have to fast forward there are many have to fast forward there are many have to fast forward there are many events there's the first in then there's events there's the first in then there's events there's the first in then there's the oo court and let's now go to uh the the oo court and let's now go to uh the the oo court and let's now go to uh the the the heart of the issue namely the uh the the heart of the issue namely the uh the the heart of the issue namely the uh the the the 2201 2201 2201 negotiations well negotiations well negotiations well um the negotiations are divided into um the negotiations are divided into um the negotiations are divided into three parts for the sake of listeners three parts for the sake of listeners three parts for the sake of listeners there's Camp David in July 2000 there there's Camp David in July 2000 there there's Camp David in July 2000 there are the Clinton parameters in December are the Clinton parameters in December are the Clinton parameters in December 2000 2000 2000 and then there are negotiations in and then there are negotiations in and then there are negotiations in taba in Egypt taba in Egypt in 2001 taba in Egypt taba in Egypt in 2001 taba in Egypt taba in Egypt in 2001 those are the three phases now I have those are the three phases now I have those are the three phases now I have studied the record probably to the point studied the record probably to the point studied the record probably to the point of insanity because there are so many of insanity because there are so many of insanity because there are so many details you have to master I'll I'll details you have to master I'll I'll details you have to master I'll I'll vouch for that the insanity I I actually vouch for that the insanity I I actually vouch for that the insanity I I actually I will vouch for it I will personally I will vouch for it I will personally I will vouch for it I will personally vouch for it um there is one extensive vouch for it um there is one extensive vouch for it um there is one extensive record from that whole period from 2000

record from that whole period from 2000 record from that whole period from 2000 to you could say to you could say to you could say 2007 and that is what came to be called 2007 and that is what came to be called 2007 and that is what came to be called the Palestine papers which were about the Palestine papers which were about the Palestine papers which were about 15,000 pages of all the records of the 15,000 pages of all the records of the 15,000 pages of all the records of the negotiations I have read through all of negotiations I have read through all of negotiations I have read through all of them every single page and this is what them every single page and this is what them every single page and this is what I find if you look at shomo Ben Ami's I find if you look at shomo Ben Ami's I find if you look at shomo Ben Ami's book which I have with me prophets book which I have with me prophets book which I have with me prophets without honor it's his last book he says without honor it's his last book he says without honor it's his last book he says going into Camp David that means July going into Camp David that means July going into Camp David that means July going into Camp David July 2000 he said going into Camp David July 2000 he said going into Camp David July 2000 he said the Israelis were willing to return the Israelis were willing to return the Israelis were willing to return about not return but will withdraw from about not return but will withdraw from about not return but will withdraw from 90 relinquish uh 92% of the West Bank 90 relinquish uh 92% of the West Bank 90 relinquish uh 92% of the West Bank benam me was at Camp DAV yeah Ben he was benam me was at Camp DAV yeah Ben he was benam me was at Camp DAV yeah Ben he was at taba oh yeah he was also Camp DAV uh at taba oh yeah he was also Camp DAV uh at taba oh yeah he was also Camp DAV uh they wanted Israel wanted to keep all they wanted Israel wanted to keep all they wanted Israel wanted to keep all the major settlement the major settlement the major settlement blocks it wanted to keep roughly blocks it wanted to keep roughly blocks it wanted to keep roughly 8% of the West Bank they were allowing 8% of the West Bank they were allowing 8% of the West Bank they were allowing for you put it at 84 to for you put it at 84 to for you put it at 84 to 90% uh in your books uh they put it at 90% uh in your books uh they put it at 90% uh in your books uh they put it at roughly roughly roughly 92% uh Israel was willing to give how 92% uh Israel was willing to give how 92% uh Israel was willing to give how you calculate depends what stage Camp you calculate depends what stage Camp you calculate depends what stage Camp David because there were two weeks I'll David because there were two weeks I'll David because there were two weeks I'll get to that proposals changed during so get to that proposals changed during so get to that proposals changed during so Israel wants to keep all the major Israel wants to keep all the major Israel wants to keep all the major settlement blocks means the Border area

settlement blocks means the Border area settlement blocks means the Border area of the West well not the Border we have of the West well not the Border we have of the West well not the Border we have Ariel we have Mal adumim we have Ariel we have Mal adumim we have Ariel we have Mal adumim we have asit as Condit rice called arel she said asit as Condit rice called arel she said asit as Condit rice called arel she said it was a dagger Into the Heart of the it was a dagger Into the Heart of the it was a dagger Into the Heart of the West Bank so they want to keep 8% of the West Bank so they want to keep 8% of the West Bank so they want to keep 8% of the land they want to keep the settlement land they want to keep the settlement land they want to keep the settlement blocks they want to keep 80 % of the blocks they want to keep 80 % of the blocks they want to keep 80 % of the settlers they will not budge an inch on settlers they will not budge an inch on settlers they will not budge an inch on the question of refugees to quote uh the question of refugees to quote uh the question of refugees to quote uh Ehud Barack in the article he Ehud Barack in the article he Ehud Barack in the article he co-authored with you in the New York co-authored with you in the New York co-authored with you in the New York Review of Books we will accept and I Review of Books we will accept and I Review of Books we will accept and I think the quotes accurate no moral legal think the quotes accurate no moral legal think the quotes accurate no moral legal or historical responsibility for what or historical responsibility for what or historical responsibility for what happened to the refugees so forget about happened to the refugees so forget about happened to the refugees so forget about even allowing refugees to return we even allowing refugees to return we even allowing refugees to return we accept no moral legal or historical accept no moral legal or historical accept no moral legal or historical responsibility for the refugees and on responsibility for the refugees and on responsibility for the refugees and on Jerusalem they wanted to keep large Jerusalem they wanted to keep large Jerusalem they wanted to keep large parts of parts of parts of Jerusalem Jerusalem Jerusalem now how do we judge who is reasonable now how do we judge who is reasonable now how do we judge who is reasonable and who is not benami says I think the and who is not benami says I think the and who is not benami says I think the Israeli offer was reasonable that's how Israeli offer was reasonable that's how Israeli offer was reasonable that's how he sees it but what is the standard of he sees it but what is the standard of he sees it but what is the standard of reasonable my standard is what do reasonable my standard is what do reasonable my standard is what do international law say international law international law say international law international law say international law says the settlements are illegal says the settlements are illegal says the settlements are illegal Israel wants to keep all the settlement Israel wants to keep all the settlement Israel wants to keep all the settlement blocks 15 judges all 15 in the wall

blocks 15 judges all 15 in the wall blocks 15 judges all 15 in the wall decision in 2004 in July 2004 all 15 decision in 2004 in July 2004 all 15 decision in 2004 in July 2004 all 15 judges including the American judge judges including the American judge judges including the American judge bergenthal bergenthal bergenthal ruled the settlements are illegal under ruled the settlements are illegal under ruled the settlements are illegal under international international international law they want to keep 80% of the law they want to keep 80% of the law they want to keep 80% of the settlers under international law all the settlers under international law all the settlers under international law all the settlers are illegal settlers are illegal settlers are illegal in the West Bank they want to keep large in the West Bank they want to keep large in the West Bank they want to keep large parts of East parts of East parts of East Jerusalem but under international law Jerusalem but under international law Jerusalem but under international law East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory that's what the international territory that's what the international territory that's what the international not Palestinian because there was no not Palestinian because there was no not Palestinian because there was no palestin there's never been a palestin there's never been a palestin there's never been a Palestinian State how could it be Palestinian State how could it be Palestinian State how could it be Palestinian I listen patiently to you Palestinian I listen patiently to you Palestinian I listen patiently to you sorry under international law if you sorry under international law if you sorry under international law if you read the decision read the decision read the decision all all all territory not 2004 World decision all territory not 2004 World decision all territory not 2004 World decision all territory beyond the green line which territory beyond the green line which territory beyond the green line which includes East Jerusalem is occupied includes East Jerusalem is occupied includes East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory the exception of Palestinian territory the exception of Palestinian territory the exception of the Goan Heights the designated unit the Goan Heights the designated unit the Goan Heights the designated unit according to the international court of according to the international court of according to the international court of justice the designated unit for justice the designated unit for justice the designated unit for Palestinian Palestinian Palestinian self-determination and self-determination and self-determination and they they deny any right whatsoever on they they deny any right whatsoever on they they deny any right whatsoever on the right of return the maximum I don't the right of return the maximum I don't the right of return the maximum I don't want to go into the details now the

want to go into the details now the want to go into the details now the maximum formal offer was by AUD Omar in maximum formal offer was by AUD Omar in maximum formal offer was by AUD Omar in 2008 he offered 5,000 refugees could 2008 he offered 5,000 refugees could 2008 he offered 5,000 refugees could return under what was called family return under what was called family return under what was called family reunification reunification reunification 5,000 in the course of five years and no 5,000 in the course of five years and no 5,000 in the course of five years and no recognition of any Israeli recognition of any Israeli recognition of any Israeli responsibility so if you use as the responsibility so if you use as the responsibility so if you use as the Baseline what the UN General Assembly Baseline what the UN General Assembly Baseline what the UN General Assembly has said and what the international has said and what the international has said and what the international court of justice has said if you use court of justice has said if you use court of justice has said if you use that Baseline international law by that that Baseline international law by that that Baseline international law by that Baseline all the Baseline all the Baseline all the concessions came from the Palestinian concessions came from the Palestinian concessions came from the Palestinian side every single concession came from side every single concession came from side every single concession came from the Palestinian side none came from the the Palestinian side none came from the the Palestinian side none came from the Israeli side they may have accepted less Israeli side they may have accepted less Israeli side they may have accepted less than they with than what they than they with than what they than they with than what they wanted but it was wanted but it was wanted but it was still beyond what international law still beyond what international law still beyond what international law allocated to them now you say allocated allocated to them now you say allocated allocated to them now you say allocated to the Palestinians allocated to the to the Palestinians allocated to the to the Palestinians allocated to the Palestinians yes thank you for the Palestinians yes thank you for the Palestinians yes thank you for the clarification now about clarification now about clarification now about Arafat like the Muti never liked the guy Arafat like the Muti never liked the guy Arafat like the Muti never liked the guy I think that was one of the only I think that was one of the only I think that was one of the only disagreements uh maren and I had when disagreements uh maren and I had when disagreements uh maren and I had when Arafat passed you were a little Arafat passed you were a little Arafat passed you were a little sentimental I was not never like the guy

sentimental I was not never like the guy sentimental I was not never like the guy but politics you don't have to like the but politics you don't have to like the but politics you don't have to like the guy there was no question nobody argues guy there was no question nobody argues guy there was no question nobody argues it that whenever the negotiation started it that whenever the negotiation started it that whenever the negotiation started up the Palestinians just kept saying the up the Palestinians just kept saying the up the Palestinians just kept saying the same things no and no they kept saying same things no and no they kept saying same things no and no they kept saying no no Professor Mars with due respect no no Professor Mars with due respect no no Professor Mars with due respect respect incorrect they kept saying respect incorrect they kept saying respect incorrect they kept saying International legitimacy international International legitimacy international International legitimacy international law un law un law un resolutions they said we already gave resolutions they said we already gave resolutions they said we already gave you what you what the Lord required we you what you what the Lord required we you what you what the Lord required we gave that in 1988 November 1988 and then gave that in 1988 November 1988 and then gave that in 1988 November 1988 and then ratified again at Oslo in ratified again at Oslo in ratified again at Oslo in 1993 and they said now we 1993 and they said now we 1993 and they said now we want what was promised us under want what was promised us under want what was promised us under International law and that was the one International law and that was the one International law and that was the one point where everybody on the other side point where everybody on the other side point where everybody on the other side agreed Clinton don't talk to me about agreed Clinton don't talk to me about agreed Clinton don't talk to me about international law Livy during the Omar international law Livy during the Omar international law Livy during the Omar Administration she said I studied Administration she said I studied Administration she said I studied international law I don't believe in international law I don't believe in international law I don't believe in international law every single member on international law every single member on international law every single member on the other side they didn't want to hear the other side they didn't want to hear the other side they didn't want to hear from international law and to my from international law and to my from international law and to my thinking that that is the only thinking that that is the only thinking that that is the only reasonable reasonable reasonable Baseline for trying to resolve the Baseline for trying to resolve the Baseline for trying to resolve the conflict and Israel has along with when conflict and Israel has along with when conflict and Israel has along with when has when has International has when has International has when has International La been relevant to any conflict

La been relevant to any conflict La been relevant to any conflict basically in the world hey that's why basically in the world hey that's why basically in the world hey that's why over the last that's why the over the last that's why the over the last that's why the Palestinians have to recognize Israel Palestinians have to recognize Israel Palestinians have to recognize Israel because that's international because that's international because that's international law that was UN resolution Sol by law that was UN resolution Sol by law that was UN resolution Sol by international law or in accordance with international law or in accordance with international law or in accordance with international law but then Professor international law but then Professor international law but then Professor Maris for argument's sake Maris for argument's sake Maris for argument's sake let's agree on that strictly for let's agree on that strictly for let's agree on that strictly for argument sake what's the argument sake what's the argument sake what's the alternative Dennis Ru said we're going alternative Dennis Ru said we're going alternative Dennis Ru said we're going to decide who gets what on the basis of to decide who gets what on the basis of to decide who gets what on the basis of needs so he says Israel needs this needs so he says Israel needs this needs so he says Israel needs this Israel needs that Israel needs that Israel needs that Israel needs that Israel needs that Israel needs that Dennis Ross decide to be the philosopher Dennis Ross decide to be the philosopher Dennis Ross decide to be the philosopher king he's going to decide on the basis king he's going to decide on the basis king he's going to decide on the basis of needs well if you asked me since Gaza of needs well if you asked me since Gaza of needs well if you asked me since Gaza is one of the densest places on Earth it is one of the densest places on Earth it is one of the densest places on Earth it needs a good it needs it needs part of needs a good it needs it needs part of needs a good it needs it needs part of it needs a nice big chunk of well not it needs a nice big chunk of well not it needs a nice big chunk of well not that's what it actually needs okay I I that's what it actually needs okay I I that's what it actually needs okay I I don't even want to go there uh it needs don't even want to go there uh it needs don't even want to go there uh it needs a nice big chunk but I have to accept a nice big chunk but I have to accept a nice big chunk but I have to accept international law says no okay international law says no okay international law says no okay international law is irrelevant now Ben international law is irrelevant now Ben international law is irrelevant now Ben says I think the Israeli offer was says I think the Israeli offer was says I think the Israeli offer was reasonable reasonable reasonable okay that's he reasonable that's he okay that's he reasonable that's he okay that's he reasonable that's he seems even though okay I don't want to seems even though okay I don't want to seems even though okay I don't want to go there I've debated him and partly go there I've debated him and partly go there I've debated him and partly agree with you um but who decides what's

agree with you um but who decides what's agree with you um but who decides what's reasonable I think the International reasonable I think the International reasonable I think the International Community in its Community in its Community in its political uh Incarnation the general political uh Incarnation the general political uh Incarnation the general assembly the security Council all those assembly the security Council all those assembly the security Council all those un Security Council resolution saying un Security Council resolution saying un Security Council resolution saying the settlements are illegal annexation the settlements are illegal annexation the settlements are illegal annexation of East Jerusalem is null and void and of East Jerusalem is null and void and of East Jerusalem is null and void and the international court of justice that the international court of justice that the international court of justice that to me is a reasonable standard and by to me is a reasonable standard and by to me is a reasonable standard and by that standard the Palestinians were that standard the Palestinians were that standard the Palestinians were asked to make concessions which I asked to make concessions which I asked to make concessions which I consider unreasonable or the consider unreasonable or the consider unreasonable or the International Community considers International Community considers International Community considers unreasonable I think that the issue is unreasonable I think that the issue is unreasonable I think that the issue is when you apply international law or when you apply international law or when you apply international law or International standards I I wouldn't say International standards I I wouldn't say International standards I I wouldn't say what Benmore says that they're what Benmore says that they're what Benmore says that they're irrelevant but I think that these have irrelevant but I think that these have irrelevant but I think that these have to be seen as informing the conversation to be seen as informing the conversation to be seen as informing the conversation I don't think these are the final of the I don't think these are the final of the I don't think these are the final of the conversation I don't think historically conversation I don't think historically conversation I don't think historically Israel has ever negotiated within the Israel has ever negotiated within the Israel has ever negotiated within the strict bounds of whether we're talking strict bounds of whether we're talking strict bounds of whether we're talking resolution 242 whether we're talking resolution 242 whether we're talking resolution 242 whether we're talking about any G General Assembly resolutions about any G General Assembly resolutions about any G General Assembly resolutions that's just not how these negotiations that's just not how these negotiations that's just not how these negotiations tend to go you might consider tend to go you might consider tend to go you might consider International opinion on things but at International opinion on things but at International opinion on things but at the end of the day it's the bilateral the end of the day it's the bilateral the end of the day it's the bilateral negotiations often times historically negotiations often times historically negotiations often times historically started in secret independent of the started in secret independent of the started in secret independent of the International Community um that end up International Community um that end up International Community um that end up shaping what the final agreements look shaping what the final agreements look shaping what the final agreements look like I think the issue with this broad like I think the issue with this broad like I think the issue with this broad appeal to international law is again appeal to international law is again appeal to international law is again going back to my earlier point about all going back to my earlier point about all going back to my earlier point about all of the euphemistic words all it simply of the euphemistic words all it simply of the euphemistic words all it simply does is Drive Palestinian expectations does is Drive Palestinian expectations does is Drive Palestinian expectations up to a level that is never going to be up to a level that is never going to be up to a level that is never going to be satisfied uh for instance you can throw satisfied uh for instance you can throw satisfied uh for instance you can throw that icj opinion all you want it was an that icj opinion all you want it was an that icj opinion all you want it was an advisory opinion that came in 2004 have

advisory opinion that came in 2004 have advisory opinion that came in 2004 have Palestinians gained more or less land Palestinians gained more or less land Palestinians gained more or less land since that 2004 advisory opinion was since that 2004 advisory opinion was since that 2004 advisory opinion was issued what would your standard be then issued what would your standard be then issued what would your standard be then both sides have to have a delegation both sides have to have a delegation both sides have to have a delegation that confronts each other and they that confronts each other and they that confronts each other and they assess the realistic conditions on the assess the realistic conditions on the assess the realistic conditions on the ground and they try to figure out within ground and they try to figure out within ground and they try to figure out within the confines of international law both the confines of international law both the confines of international law both sides are reasonable but like forance sides are reasonable but like forance sides are reasonable but like forance this statement of like full with Retreat this statement of like full with Retreat this statement of like full with Retreat from the West what is it 400,000 sett from the West what is it 400,000 sett from the West what is it 400,000 sett how many settlers live in the west now how many settlers live in the west now how many settlers live in the west now probably half a million depends if you probably half a million depends if you probably half a million depends if you include the Jerusalem suburbs four or include the Jerusalem suburbs four or include the Jerusalem suburbs four or 500,000 people are never with the 500,000 people are never with the 500,000 people are never with the Jerusalem suburbs Jerusalem suburbs Jerusalem suburbs perhaps half a million people not perhaps half a million people not perhaps half a million people not settlements I know that but that's not settlements I know that but that's not settlements I know that but that's not what the law the law calls it null and what the law the law calls it null and what the law the law calls it null and void we can say we can say whatever we void we can say we can say whatever we void we can say we can say whatever we want until we're blue in the face but want until we're blue in the face but want until we're blue in the face but like there's half a million Israeli like there's half a million Israeli like there's half a million Israeli people are not being expelled resp people are not being expelled resp people are not being expelled resp you're basically saying if I understand you're basically saying if I understand you're basically saying if I understand correctly there's only one way to correctly there's only one way to correctly there's only one way to resolve this and that is through direct resolve this and that is through direct resolve this and that is through direct bilateral negotiations probably yeah bilateral negotiations probably yeah bilateral negotiations probably yeah okay so or ideally but I've taken over okay so or ideally but I've taken over okay so or ideally but I've taken over your house okay you're not going to go your house okay you're not going to go your house okay you're not going to go to the police because you know the law to the police because you know the law to the police because you know the law is of only of limited value so you come is of only of limited value so you come is of only of limited value so you come over and sit in what is now my living over and sit in what is now my living over and sit in what is now my living room that used to be your living room room that used to be your living room room that used to be your living room and we negotiate the problem there is and we negotiate the problem there is and we negotiate the problem there is that you're not going to get anything that you're not going to get anything that you're not going to get anything unless I agree to it and standard and unless I agree to it and standard and unless I agree to it and standard and and norms and and law and all the rest and norms and and law and all the rest and norms and and law and all the rest of it be damned so um you need to take of it be damned so um you need to take of it be damned so um you need to take into account that when you're advocating into account that when you're advocating into account that when you're advocating bilateral bilateral bilateral negotiations that effectively that gives negotiations that effectively that gives negotiations that effectively that gives each of the parties veto power and in

each of the parties veto power and in each of the parties veto power and in the current circumstances the the current circumstances the the current circumstances the Palestinians have already recognized Palestinians have already recognized Palestinians have already recognized Israel um they have they have why you Israel um they have they have why you Israel um they have they have why you keep bringing that up like it's a keep bringing that up like it's a keep bringing that up like it's a significant concession even it's not significant concession even it's not significant concession even it's not even true it does the recognition from even true it does the recognition from even true it does the recognition from Palestine isn't doing anything for Hamas Palestine isn't doing anything for Hamas Palestine isn't doing anything for Hamas totally reject Hamas Hamas is a majority totally reject Hamas Hamas is a majority totally reject Hamas Hamas is a majority in the among the Palestinian people they in the among the Palestinian people they in the among the Palestinian people they won the elections in 2006 every they won won the elections in 2006 every they won won the elections in 2006 every they won a majority of the seats didn't win a majority of the seats didn't win a majority of the seats didn't win majority opinion poll today says the majority opinion poll today says the majority opinion poll today says the majority of Palestinians support the majority of Palestinians support the majority of Palestinians support the Hamas Hamas absolutely rejects hisra so Hamas Hamas absolutely rejects hisra so Hamas Hamas absolutely rejects hisra so if arat 2003 uh 1993 or whatever issued if arat 2003 uh 1993 or whatever issued if arat 2003 uh 1993 or whatever issued a sort of recognition was a sort of a sort of recognition was a sort of a sort of recognition was a sort of recogn recognition of Israel it does recogn recognition of Israel it does recogn recognition of Israel it does it's meaningless it's meaningless any it's meaningless it's meaningless any it's meaningless it's meaningless any any I don't believe that Arafat was any I don't believe that Arafat was any I don't believe that Arafat was sincere about it does it matter what you sincere about it does it matter what you sincere about it does it matter what you I think well most Israelis do and that I think well most Israelis do and that I think well most Israelis do and that does matter okay so that does matter but does matter okay so that does matter but does matter okay so that does matter but Hamas says no and Hamas is the majority Hamas says no and Hamas is the majority Hamas says no and Hamas is the majority to so for years so so for years the to so for years so so for years the to so for years so so for years the Israeli and US demand was that the Israeli and US demand was that the Israeli and US demand was that the Palestinians recognize uh 242 338 they Palestinians recognize uh 242 338 they Palestinians recognize uh 242 338 they did but you're saying okay we demanded did but you're saying okay we demanded did but you're saying okay we demanded that they do this but it was meaningless that they do this but it was meaningless that they do this but it was meaningless when they did it then the then the when they did it then the then the when they did it then the then the demand was that a tactical thing yes demand was that a tactical thing yes demand was that a tactical thing yes then the demand was that is uh the PLO then the demand was that is uh the PLO then the demand was that is uh the PLO recognize Israel tactical okay we recognize Israel tactical okay we recognize Israel tactical okay we demanded that they did this and they did demanded that they did this and they did demanded that they did this and they did it but it's meaningless and they never it but it's meaningless and they never it but it's meaningless and they never changed their chart of the PLO you may changed their chart of the PLO you may changed their chart of the PLO you may remember that in fact in 19 they remember that in fact in 19 they remember that in fact in 19 they supposedly abrogated the Old Charter but

supposedly abrogated the Old Charter but supposedly abrogated the Old Charter but never came up with a new one so no never came up with a new one so no never came up with a new one so no there's no new CH but in 1996 and Faruk there's no new CH but in 1996 and Faruk there's no new CH but in 1996 and Faruk Kumi said of course the Old Charter is Kumi said of course the Old Charter is Kumi said of course the Old Charter is still in yes but the point is you know still in yes but the point is you know still in yes but the point is you know the the the Palestinians demands are constantly made Palestinians demands are constantly made Palestinians demands are constantly made of them and when they and when they of them and when they and when they of them and when they and when they acceed to those demands they're then acceed to those demands they're then acceed to those demands they're then told actually what you did is told actually what you did is told actually what you did is meaningless so here's a new set of meaningless so here's a new set of meaningless so here's a new set of Demands I mean you know it's like a Demands I mean you know it's like a Demands I mean you know it's like a hamster ofand it's like a hamster it's hamster ofand it's like a hamster it's hamster ofand it's like a hamster it's like a hamster Stu in whe let me tell like a hamster Stu in whe let me tell like a hamster Stu in whe let me tell you what told if you run fast enough you what told if you run fast enough you what told if you run fast enough you'll get out of the cave no no the you'll get out of the cave no no the you'll get out of the cave no no the bottom line is that Israel would like a bottom line is that Israel would like a bottom line is that Israel would like a Palestinian Sadat it wants the Palestinian Sadat it wants the Palestinian Sadat it wants the Palestinians listen listen this really a Palestinians listen listen this really a Palestinians listen listen this really a worst case scenario okay let me just worst case scenario okay let me just worst case scenario okay let me just they sh s but anyhow the the the they sh s but anyhow the the the they sh s but anyhow the the the Israelis want want the Palestinians Israelis want want the Palestinians Israelis want want the Palestinians Israelis want the Palestinians to Israelis want the Palestinians to Israelis want the Palestinians to actually accept the legitimacy of the actually accept the legitimacy of the actually accept the legitimacy of the state of Israel and the Zionist project state of Israel and the Zionist project state of Israel and the Zionist project and then live side by side with them in and then live side by side with them in and then live side by side with them in two states that's what the Israelis I two states that's what the Israelis I two states that's what the Israelis I don't even know don't that's true today don't even know don't that's true today don't even know don't that's true today and what is the formal position of of of and what is the formal position of of of and what is the formal position of of of this Israeli government no no I'm saying this Israeli government no no I'm saying this Israeli government no no I'm saying I don't know if it exist it's it's I don't know if it exist it's it's I don't know if it exist it's it's predecessor and it's predecessor and predecessor and it's predecessor and predecessor and it's predecessor and it's it's it's come on that's what Israelis want they come on that's what Israelis want they come on that's what Israelis want they want a change of of psyche among the want a change of of psyche among the want a change of of psyche among the Palestinians if that doesn't happen Palestinians if that doesn't happen Palestinians if that doesn't happen there won't be a palestin there won't be a palestin there won't be a palestin m mine has an interesting point because m mine has an interesting point because m mine has an interesting point because interal because I found I found I know interal because I found I found I know interal because I found I found I know you would want to I know you want to you would want to I know you want to you would want to I know you want to forget it just like you want to forget

forget it just like you want to forget forget it just like you want to forget the genocide charge but I know you want the genocide charge but I know you want the genocide charge but I know you want to forget that well the Palestinians to forget that well the Palestinians to forget that well the Palestinians want to forget it too and it doesn't want to forget it too and it doesn't want to forget it too and it doesn't suit them as well right but here's the suit them as well right but here's the suit them as well right but here's the problem and it's exactly the problem problem and it's exactly the problem problem and it's exactly the problem that M just brought up now I read that M just brought up now I read that M just brought up now I read carefully your book one state two states carefully your book one state two states carefully your book one state two states with all due respect absolutely a with all due respect absolutely a with all due respect absolutely a disgrace coming coming from you coming disgrace coming coming from you coming disgrace coming coming from you coming from you most reviewers didn't agree from you most reviewers didn't agree from you most reviewers didn't agree with you yeah coming from you was like with you yeah coming from you was like with you yeah coming from you was like you wrote it in your sleep it's nothing you wrote it in your sleep it's nothing you wrote it in your sleep it's nothing compared to what you wrote before I compared to what you wrote before I compared to what you wrote before I don't know why you did it in my opinion don't know why you did it in my opinion don't know why you did it in my opinion you ruined your reputation not totally you ruined your reputation not totally you ruined your reputation not totally but you undermined it with that book but but you undermined it with that book but but you undermined it with that book but let's get to the issue that M let's get to the issue that M let's get to the issue that M wrote here's what you said you said wrote here's what you said you said wrote here's what you said you said formerly you said yes it's true the formerly you said yes it's true the formerly you said yes it's true the Palestinians recognize Israel but then Palestinians recognize Israel but then Palestinians recognize Israel but then you said viscerally in their hearts they you said viscerally in their hearts they you said viscerally in their hearts they they didn't really recognize they didn't really recognize they didn't really recognize Israel so I thought to myself how does Israel so I thought to myself how does Israel so I thought to myself how does uh Professor Mar no what's in the hearts uh Professor Mar no what's in the hearts uh Professor Mar no what's in the hearts of Palestinians I don't know I was I was of Palestinians I don't know I was I was of Palestinians I don't know I was I was I was explained I was I was surprised as I was explained I was I was surprised as I was explained I was I was surprised as a historian you would be talking about a historian you would be talking about a historian you would be talking about what's lurking in the hearts of what's lurking in the hearts of what's lurking in the hearts of Palestinians but then you said something Palestinians but then you said something Palestinians but then you said something which was really interesting in you said which was really interesting in you said which was really interesting in you said even if in their hearts they accepted even if in their hearts they accepted even if in their hearts they accepted Israel you said quote rationally they Israel you said quote rationally they Israel you said quote rationally they could never accept Israel because they could never accept Israel because they could never accept Israel because they got nothing they had this beautiful got nothing they had this beautiful got nothing they had this beautiful Palestine and now they're reduced to Palestine and now they're reduced to Palestine and now they're reduced to just a few pieces a few Parcels of land

just a few pieces a few Parcels of land just a few pieces a few Parcels of land they will never accept it so yes so you they will never accept it so yes so you they will never accept it so yes so you said there's no way they can accept no I said there's no way they can accept no I said there's no way they can accept no I I would say that as well the two State I would say that as well the two State I would say that as well the two State solution as proposed solution as proposed solution as proposed exactly as Moen said you keep moving the exactly as Moen said you keep moving the exactly as Moen said you keep moving the gold post no no no until we reach the gold post no no no until we reach the gold post no no no until we reach the point where we realize according to point where we realize according to point where we realize according to Benny Maris there can't be a Benny Maris there can't be a Benny Maris there can't be a solution so why don't you just say that solution so why don't you just say that solution so why don't you just say that outright why don't you say it outright outright why don't you say it outright outright why don't you say it outright that according to you the Palestinians that according to you the Palestinians that according to you the Palestinians can never be reasonable because can never be reasonable because can never be reasonable because according to you they want all according to you they want all according to you they want all according to you they couldn't possibly according to you they couldn't possibly according to you they couldn't possibly they couldn't possibly agree to a they couldn't possibly agree to a they couldn't possibly agree to a two-state summon because it's such a two-state summon because it's such a two-state summon because it's such a lousy lousy lousy settlement Palestine because you but you settlement Palestine because you but you settlement Palestine because you but you said rationally they couldn't accept it said rationally they couldn't accept it said rationally they couldn't accept it not their feelings you said rational you not their feelings you said rational you not their feelings you said rational you went from formally viscerally rationally went from formally viscerally rationally went from formally viscerally rationally so now we're reaching the point where so now we're reaching the point where so now we're reaching the point where according to Benny moris the according to Benny moris the according to Benny moris the Palestinians can't be Palestinians can't be Palestinians can't be reasonable because reasonably they have reasonable because reasonably they have reasonable because reasonably they have to reject two states they want all of to reject two states they want all of to reject two states they want all of pal absolutely correct there's no way to pal absolutely correct there's no way to pal absolutely correct there's no way to resolve the problem according to your he resolve the problem according to your he resolve the problem according to your he said that himself he said they should said that himself he said they should said that himself he said they should dismantle Israel that's what he say what dismantle Israel that's what he say what dismantle Israel that's what he say what I I I said what I said and and I've and I've

said what I said and and I've and I've said what I said and and I've and I've written I'm glad you didn't deny it I've written I'm glad you didn't deny it I've written I'm glad you didn't deny it I've I've written extensively on this issue I've written extensively on this issue I've written extensively on this issue on on why a two-state settlement is um on on why a two-state settlement is um on on why a two-state settlement is um still feasible and I came out in support still feasible and I came out in support still feasible and I came out in support of that proposition perhaps in my heart of that proposition perhaps in my heart of that proposition perhaps in my heart you know you can see that I was just you know you can see that I was just you know you can see that I was just bullshitting but that's what I actually bullshitting but that's what I actually bullshitting but that's what I actually wrote that was a number of years ago and wrote that was a number of years ago and wrote that was a number of years ago and and just as a matter of historical and just as a matter of historical and just as a matter of historical record um beginning in the early record um beginning in the early record um beginning in the early 1970s um there was fierce debate within 1970s um there was fierce debate within 1970s um there was fierce debate within the Palestinian national movement about the Palestinian national movement about the Palestinian national movement about whether to accept or reject and and whether to accept or reject and and whether to accept or reject and and there were three schools of thought there were three schools of thought there were three schools of thought there was one that would accept nothing there was one that would accept nothing there was one that would accept nothing less than the total liberation of less than the total liberation of less than the total liberation of Palestine there was a second that Palestine there was a second that Palestine there was a second that accepted what was called the accepted what was called the accepted what was called the establishment of a fighting National establishment of a fighting National establishment of a fighting National Authority on Palestinian soil which they Authority on Palestinian soil which they Authority on Palestinian soil which they saw as the begin as a springboard for saw as the begin as a springboard for saw as the begin as a springboard for the total liberation of Palestine and the total liberation of Palestine and the total liberation of Palestine and there was a third school that believed there was a third school that believed there was a third school that believed that under current Dynamics and so on that under current Dynamics and so on that under current Dynamics and so on that that um they should go for a that that um they should go for a that that um they should go for a two-state settlement and and our friend two-state settlement and and our friend two-state settlement and and our friend and correspondent cter lers has written and correspondent cter lers has written and correspondent cter lers has written a very perceptive article on um when the a very perceptive article on um when the a very perceptive article on um when the P already in P already in P already in 1976 came out an open support of a um 1976 came out an open support of a um 1976 came out an open support of a um two-state uh resolution at the security two-state uh resolution at the security two-state uh resolution at the security Council poo accepted it Israel of course Council poo accepted it Israel of course Council poo accepted it Israel of course rejected it but the resolution didn't rejected it but the resolution didn't rejected it but the resolution didn't pass because the US and the UK vetoed it pass because the US and the UK vetoed it pass because the US and the UK vetoed it it was both of them I think it was N9

it was both of them I think it was N9 it was both of them I think it was N9 to5 yeah but but fact of the matter is to5 yeah but but fact of the matter is to5 yeah but but fact of the matter is that the PLO came to accept um a that the PLO came to accept um a that the PLO came to accept um a two-state settlement why they did it I two-state settlement why they did it I two-state settlement why they did it I think is think is think is irrelevant um and subsequently the PLO irrelevant um and subsequently the PLO irrelevant um and subsequently the PLO acted on the basis of seeking to achieve acted on the basis of seeking to achieve acted on the basis of seeking to achieve a two-state sett the reason I think and a two-state sett the reason I think and a two-state sett the reason I think and I think Norm you've written about this I think Norm you've written about this I think Norm you've written about this the reason that Arafat was so the reason that Arafat was so the reason that Arafat was so insistent on getting um uh the minimally insistent on getting um uh the minimally insistent on getting um uh the minimally acceptable terms for a two-state acceptable terms for a two-state acceptable terms for a two-state settlement at Camp David and afterwards settlement at Camp David and afterwards settlement at Camp David and afterwards was precisely because he knew that once was precisely because he knew that once was precisely because he knew that once he signed that was all the Palestinians he signed that was all the Palestinians he signed that was all the Palestinians were going to get if his intention had were going to get if his intention had were going to get if his intention had been you know I'm not accepting Israel I been you know I'm not accepting Israel I been you know I'm not accepting Israel I simply want to springboard he would have simply want to springboard he would have simply want to springboard he would have accepted a Palestinian state in Jericho accepted a Palestinian state in Jericho accepted a Palestinian state in Jericho but he didn't he ins that's something but he didn't he ins that's something but he didn't he ins that's something I've never understood he should have I've never understood he should have I've never understood he should have logically accepted the springboard and logically accepted the springboard and logically accepted the springboard and then from there launched his next stage then from there launched his next stage then from there launched his next stage don't understand he international law don't understand he international law don't understand he international law would put a real constraint on would put a real constraint on would put a real constraint on no but also he accepted it was over no but also he accepted it was over no but also he accepted it was over constitutionally he was incapable of constitutionally he was incapable of constitutionally he was incapable of signing know you're right that he he signing know you're right that he he signing know you're right that he he should have accepted it but if you're should have accepted it but if you're should have accepted it but if you're correct okay that that he was really out correct okay that that he was really out correct okay that that he was really out to eliminate Israel then then he to eliminate Israel then then he to eliminate Israel then then he wouldn't have cared about the borders he wouldn't have cared about the borders he wouldn't have cared about the borders he wouldn't have cared about what the thing wouldn't have cared about what the thing wouldn't have cared about what the thing said about refugees he would have gotten said about refugees he would have gotten said about refugees he would have gotten a sovereign state and used that to a sovereign state and used that to a sovereign state and used that to achieve that purpose but but I think it

achieve that purpose but but I think it achieve that purpose but but I think it was precisely because he recognized that was precisely because he recognized that was precisely because he recognized that he was not negotiating for a springboard he was not negotiating for a springboard he was not negotiating for a springboard he was negotiating permanent status that he was negotiating permanent status that he was negotiating permanent status that he was such a stickler about the details he was such a stickler about the details he was such a stickler about the details the second just as a factual matter he the second just as a factual matter he the second just as a factual matter he wasn't such a stickler when they asked wasn't such a stickler when they asked wasn't such a stickler when they asked him how many refugees the numbers it was him how many refugees the numbers it was him how many refugees the numbers it was a principal rather than the num a principal rather than the num a principal rather than the num principal he said I would be pragmatic principal he said I would be pragmatic principal he said I would be pragmatic about it and the numbers that were used about it and the numbers that were used about it and the numbers that were used at um at um at um Annapolis were between and 250,000 Annapolis were between and 250,000 Annapolis were between and 250,000 refugees over 10 years that was the refugees over 10 years that was the refugees over 10 years that was the number Arafat when he was asked at Camp number Arafat when he was asked at Camp number Arafat when he was asked at Camp David he kept saying I care about the David he kept saying I care about the David he kept saying I care about the Lebanese uh the Palestinian refugees in Lebanese uh the Palestinian refugees in Lebanese uh the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon which came to about 300,000 Lebanon which came to about 300,000 Lebanon which came to about 300,000 prior which was a large concession from prior which was a large concession from prior which was a large concession from the whether you accept the number or not the whether you accept the number or not the whether you accept the number or not that he wasn't talking about 6 million that he wasn't talking about 6 million that he wasn't talking about 6 million he was talking about between 100 and he was talking about between 100 and he was talking about between 100 and 250,000 over 10 years now the best offer 250,000 over 10 years now the best offer 250,000 over 10 years now the best offer that came from the Palestinians excuse that came from the Palestinians excuse that came from the Palestinians excuse me the best offer that came from Israel me the best offer that came from Israel me the best offer that came from Israel was the allart offer can we just pretend was the allart offer can we just pretend was the allart offer can we just pretend like we didn't all lay out the like we didn't all lay out the like we didn't all lay out the exceptionally pessimistic uh view of a exceptionally pessimistic uh view of a exceptionally pessimistic uh view of a two-state hold on a second two-state two-state hold on a second two-state two-state hold on a second two-state solution let's pretend that in 5 years solution let's pretend that in 5 years solution let's pretend that in 5 years and 10 years a a two-state peace and 10 years a a two-state peace and 10 years a a two-state peace settlement is settlement is settlement is reached and and as historians you will reached and and as historians you will reached and and as historians you will still be here and writing about it 20 still be here and writing about it 20 still be here and writing about it 20 years from now how would it have

years from now how would it have years from now how would it have happened I think that historically I happened I think that historically I happened I think that historically I think that the big issue is I think that think that the big issue is I think that think that the big issue is I think that both sides have had their own internal both sides have had their own internal both sides have had their own internal motivations to fight because they feel motivations to fight because they feel motivations to fight because they feel like they have something to gain from it like they have something to gain from it like they have something to gain from it but I think as time has gone on but I think as time has gone on but I think as time has gone on unfortunately the record proves that the unfortunately the record proves that the unfortunately the record proves that the Palestinian side is delusional the Palestinian side is delusional the Palestinian side is delusional the longer that the conflict endures the longer that the conflict endures the longer that the conflict endures the worse position they'll be in but for worse position they'll be in but for worse position they'll be in but for some reason they've never had a leader some reason they've never had a leader some reason they've never had a leader that convinced them of that as much that that convinced them of that as much that that convinced them of that as much that Arafat thought that if he held on there Arafat thought that if he held on there Arafat thought that if he held on there was always a better deal around the was always a better deal around the was always a better deal around the corner um abas is more concerned with corner um abas is more concerned with corner um abas is more concerned with trying to maintain any legitimacy trying to maintain any legitimacy trying to maintain any legitimacy amongst Palestinians than actually amongst Palestinians than actually amongst Palestinians than actually trying to uh negotiate anything trying to uh negotiate anything trying to uh negotiate anything realistic with Israel that Palestinians realistic with Israel that Palestinians realistic with Israel that Palestinians are always incen to feel like as long as are always incen to feel like as long as are always incen to feel like as long as they keep fighting either the they keep fighting either the they keep fighting either the International Community is going to save International Community is going to save International Community is going to save them with the 5 millionth UN resolution them with the 5 millionth UN resolution them with the 5 millionth UN resolution condemning whatever that another icj condemning whatever that another icj condemning whatever that another icj advisory opinion is finally going to advisory opinion is finally going to advisory opinion is finally going to lead to the expulsion of half a million lead to the expulsion of half a million lead to the expulsion of half a million Jews from the West Bank or that some Jews from the West Bank or that some Jews from the West Bank or that some other International body uh the icj and other International body uh the icj and other International body uh the icj and the genocide Char is going to come and the genocide Char is going to come and the genocide Char is going to come and save the Palestinians as long as they in save the Palestinians as long as they in save the Palestinians as long as they in their mind feel like somebody is coming their mind feel like somebody is coming their mind feel like somebody is coming to save them then they feel like they're to save them then they feel like they're to save them then they feel like they're going to have the ability to get going to have the ability to get going to have the ability to get something better in the future but the something better in the future but the something better in the future but the reality is is all of the good partners reality is is all of the good partners reality is is all of the good partners for peace that the Palestinians had have for peace that the Palestinians had have for peace that the Palestinians had have completely and utterly abandoned them completely and utterly abandoned them completely and utterly abandoned them uh Egypt uh Jordan uh the Gulf States uh uh Egypt uh Jordan uh the Gulf States uh uh Egypt uh Jordan uh the Gulf States uh whether you're talking bilateral peace whether you're talking bilateral peace whether you're talking bilateral peace or the Abraham Accords most of the Arab or the Abraham Accords most of the Arab or the Abraham Accords most of the Arab leaders in negotiating peace with Israel leaders in negotiating peace with Israel leaders in negotiating peace with Israel have just not had as much of an interest have just not had as much of an interest have just not had as much of an interest in maintaining the uh maintaining the in maintaining the uh maintaining the in maintaining the uh maintaining the rights and the representations of what rights and the representations of what rights and the representations of what the Palestinian people want and the only the Palestinian people want and the only the Palestinian people want and the only people they have today to to draw people they have today to to draw people they have today to to draw legitimacy from or to have on their side legitimacy from or to have on their side legitimacy from or to have on their side to argue with them are people that I to argue with them are people that I to argue with them are people that I guess write books or tweet or people in

guess write books or tweet or people in guess write books or tweet or people in the International Community that do the International Community that do the International Community that do resolutions or Amnesty International resolutions or Amnesty International resolutions or Amnesty International reports and the reality is we can scream reports and the reality is we can scream reports and the reality is we can scream until we're blew in the face on these until we're blew in the face on these until we're blew in the face on these things none of it has gotten any closer things none of it has gotten any closer things none of it has gotten any closer to helping the Palestinians in any sense to helping the Palestinians in any sense to helping the Palestinians in any sense of the word the condition has only of the word the condition has only of the word the condition has only gotten worse the settlements only gotten worse the settlements only gotten worse the settlements only continue to expand the military continue to expand the military continue to expand the military operations are only going to get more operations are only going to get more operations are only going to get more brutal uh the the blockade is going to brutal uh the the blockade is going to brutal uh the the blockade is going to continue to have worse effects as long continue to have worse effects as long continue to have worse effects as long as we use international law as the basis as we use international law as the basis as we use international law as the basis and there isn't a strong a Sadat likee and there isn't a strong a Sadat likee and there isn't a strong a Sadat likee Palestinian leader that's willing to Palestinian leader that's willing to Palestinian leader that's willing to come up and confront Israel with the come up and confront Israel with the come up and confront Israel with the with the brave peaceful negotiations to with the brave peaceful negotiations to with the brave peaceful negotiations to force them to to acqu nothing is going force them to to acqu nothing is going force them to to acqu nothing is going to happen and I think that the issue you to happen and I think that the issue you to happen and I think that the issue you come up with is you know whether it's come up with is you know whether it's come up with is you know whether it's people like Norm that talk about how people like Norm that talk about how people like Norm that talk about how Brave the October 7th attacks were or Brave the October 7th attacks were or Brave the October 7th attacks were or how much respect they have for those how much respect they have for those how much respect they have for those Fighters the the Israel in a way and I Fighters the the Israel in a way and I Fighters the the Israel in a way and I think people have said as much about think people have said as much about think people have said as much about Netanyahu um the right wants violence Netanyahu um the right wants violence Netanyahu um the right wants violence from the Palestinians because it always from the Palestinians because it always from the Palestinians because it always gives them a Perpetual excuse to further gives them a Perpetual excuse to further gives them a Perpetual excuse to further the conflict well we have to go in uh in the conflict well we have to go in uh in the conflict well we have to go in uh in October 7 we've got to remove Hamas well October 7 we've got to remove Hamas well October 7 we've got to remove Hamas well we can't trust these people in the west we can't trust these people in the west we can't trust these people in the west we have to do the night raids um because we have to do the night raids um because we have to do the night raids um because you know the second inata uh you know you know the second inata uh you know you know the second inata uh you know made us feel like the Palestinian people made us feel like the Palestinian people made us feel like the Palestinian people didn't want trust with us I feel like didn't want trust with us I feel like didn't want trust with us I feel like the the the biggest thing that would the the the biggest thing that would the the the biggest thing that would force Israel to change its path would be force Israel to change its path would be force Israel to change its path would be an actual a real not for like two weeks an actual a real not for like two weeks an actual a real not for like two weeks but an actual peaceful Palestinian but an actual peaceful Palestinian but an actual peaceful Palestinian leader somebody committed to peace that leader somebody committed to peace that leader somebody committed to peace that is able to apply those standards and is able to apply those standards and is able to apply those standards and hold the entire region of Palestine to hold the entire region of Palestine to hold the entire region of Palestine to those standards because I think over those standards because I think over those standards because I think over time the mounting pressure from without time the mounting pressure from without time the mounting pressure from without the the the International Community and the the the International Community and the the the International Community and the mounting pressure from within the mounting pressure from within the mounting pressure from within because Israel hosts a lot of its own because Israel hosts a lot of its own because Israel hosts a lot of its own criticism if we talk about bet Salem we criticism if we talk about bet Salem we criticism if we talk about bet Salem we talk her like Israel will host a lot of talk her like Israel will host a lot of talk her like Israel will host a lot of its own criticism I think that that its own criticism I think that that its own criticism I think that that pressure would force Israel towards an pressure would force Israel towards an pressure would force Israel towards an actual peace agreement but it's never

actual peace agreement but it's never actual peace agreement but it's never going to come through violence going to come through violence going to come through violence historically it hasn't um and in the historically it hasn't um and in the historically it hasn't um and in the modern day violence has just hurt the modern day violence has just hurt the modern day violence has just hurt the Palestinians more and more if you paint Palestinians more and more if you paint Palestinians more and more if you paint a picture of the future now is a good a picture of the future now is a good a picture of the future now is a good moment for both Palestine and Israel to moment for both Palestine and Israel to moment for both Palestine and Israel to get new leadership Netanyahu is on the get new leadership Netanyahu is on the get new leadership Netanyahu is on the way out Hamas possibly is on the way out way out Hamas possibly is on the way out way out Hamas possibly is on the way out who should rise to the top such that a who should rise to the top such that a who should rise to the top such that a peaceful settlement can be reached the peaceful settlement can be reached the peaceful settlement can be reached the the problem is like said yeah it's the problem is like said yeah it's the problem is like said yeah it's difficult because Hamas enjoys so much difficult because Hamas enjoys so much difficult because Hamas enjoys so much widespread support um amongst the widespread support um amongst the widespread support um amongst the Palestinian people I think that the well Palestinian people I think that the well Palestinian people I think that the well I don't know there's opinions on whether I don't know there's opinions on whether I don't know there's opinions on whether democracy or pushing them towards democracy or pushing them towards democracy or pushing them towards elections was the right or wrong idea elections was the right or wrong idea elections was the right or wrong idea but with like an Islamic fundamentalist but with like an Islamic fundamentalist but with like an Islamic fundamentalist government for for Hamas I don't know if government for for Hamas I don't know if government for for Hamas I don't know if a negotiation with Israel ever happens a negotiation with Israel ever happens a negotiation with Israel ever happens there and then when the when the there and then when the when the there and then when the when the international pressure is always you international pressure is always you international pressure is always you know 67 borders infinite right of return know 67 borders infinite right of return know 67 borders infinite right of return for refugees and a total withdrawal of for refugees and a total withdrawal of for refugees and a total withdrawal of Israel from all these lands to even Israel from all these lands to even Israel from all these lands to even start negotiations um I just don't see start negotiations um I just don't see start negotiations um I just don't see realistically that on the Palestinian realistically that on the Palestinian realistically that on the Palestinian side no negotiations are ever going to side no negotiations are ever going to side no negotiations are ever going to start in in a place that Israel is start in in a place that Israel is start in in a place that Israel is willing to willing to willing to accept if you want to um dismiss accept if you want to um dismiss accept if you want to um dismiss international law that's fine but then international law that's fine but then international law that's fine but then you have to do it you have to do it you have to do it consistently you can't um set standards consistently you can't um set standards consistently you can't um set standards for the for the for the Palestinians um but reject uh applying Palestinians um but reject uh applying Palestinians um but reject uh applying those standards to Israel um if we're those standards to Israel um if we're those standards to Israel um if we're going to have the law of the Jungle then going to have the law of the Jungle then going to have the law of the Jungle then we can all be beasts and not only some we can all be beasts and not only some we can all be beasts and not only some of us and I think so it's either that or of us and I think so it's either that or of us and I think so it's either that or you have certain agreed uh standards

you have certain agreed uh standards you have certain agreed uh standards that that are intended to regulate our that that are intended to regulate our that that are intended to regulate our conduct all of our conduct not just some conduct all of our conduct not just some conduct all of our conduct not just some of of of us I'm saying to abandon well you're us I'm saying to abandon well you're us I'm saying to abandon well you're saying you know international law and saying you know international law and saying you know international law and the millionth UN resolution you're being the millionth UN resolution you're being the millionth UN resolution you're being very dismissive about all the things and very dismissive about all the things and very dismissive about all the things and that's fine but then you have to be that's fine but then you have to be that's fine but then you have to be dismissive say like forance AC that was dismissive say like forance AC that was dismissive say like forance AC that was a chapter 6 resolution that's a chapter 6 resolution that's a chapter 6 resolution that's non-binding but 242 is non-binding but 242 is non-binding but 242 is binding what is what is binding do you binding what is what is binding do you binding what is what is binding do you know anything about how the UN system if know anything about how the UN system if know anything about how the UN system if you read the language of the resolution you read the language of the resolution you read the language of the resolution binding is typically if it commits you binding is typically if it commits you binding is typically if it commits you to upholding a particular international to upholding a particular international to upholding a particular international law or if it establish law or if it establish law or if it establish you just throw out words you hear you just throw out words you hear you just throw out words you hear binding even does 22 mention a binding even does 22 mention a binding even does 22 mention a Palestinian state of course part of the Palestinian state of course part of the Palestinian state of course part of the problem that was the reason why the problem that was the reason why the problem that was the reason why the Palestinians didn't want to recognize Palestinians didn't want to recognize Palestinians didn't want to recognize 242 because it only referred at the very 242 because it only referred at the very 242 because it only referred at the very end recognized 181 and 22 hold on hold end recognized 181 and 22 hold on hold end recognized 181 and 22 hold on hold on every United Nations security Council on every United Nations security Council on every United Nations security Council resolution irrespective of under which resolution irrespective of under which resolution irrespective of under which chapter it was adopted is by definition chapter it was adopted is by definition chapter it was adopted is by definition binding binding not only on the members binding binding not only on the members binding binding not only on the members of the security Council but on every of the security Council but on every of the security Council but on every member state of the UN that's read the member state of the UN that's read the member state of the UN that's read the UN Charter it's it's black and what sure UN Charter it's it's black and what sure UN Charter it's it's black and what sure people look the language even of 242 is people look the language even of 242 is people look the language even of 242 is kept intentionally vague such that it kept intentionally vague such that it kept intentionally vague such that it doesn't actually provide again the final doesn't actually provide again the final doesn't actually provide again the final not that vague because the term the term not that vague because the term the term not that vague because the term the term land for peace originates in 242 the land for peace originates in 242 the land for peace originates in 242 the idea territorial acquisition and idea territorial acquisition and idea territorial acquisition and Israel's need to give it up was kept Israel's need to give it up was kept Israel's need to give it up was kept vague that's why in that's why 79 is

vague that's why in that's why 79 is vague that's why in that's why 79 is thought that they their thought that they their thought that they their point of information allow me points of point of information allow me points of point of information allow me points of information the first principle in UN information the first principle in UN information the first principle in UN resolution 242 is the inadmissibility of resolution 242 is the inadmissibility of resolution 242 is the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force the acquisition of territory by force the acquisition of territory by force which is meaning it may be meaningless which is meaning it may be meaningless which is meaning it may be meaningless to you Mr B M Mr benell that principle to you Mr B M Mr benell that principle to you Mr B M Mr benell that principle was adopted by the friendly Nations was adopted by the friendly Nations was adopted by the friendly Nations resolution the UN General Assembly in resolution the UN General Assembly in resolution the UN General Assembly in 1970 that resolution was then reiterated 1970 that resolution was then reiterated 1970 that resolution was then reiterated in the international court of in the international court of in the international court of justice ruling advisory opinion in justice ruling advisory opinion in justice ruling advisory opinion in 2004 that was the basis of the Coalition 2004 that was the basis of the Coalition 2004 that was the basis of the Coalition against Iraq when it acquired Kuwait and against Iraq when it acquired Kuwait and against Iraq when it acquired Kuwait and then declared it a province of Kuwait then declared it a province of Kuwait then declared it a province of Kuwait which supported that's what's called which supported that's what's called which supported that's what's called that's what's called not accurate I'm not going to go called not accurate I'm not going to go there I'm not there I'm not there I'm not it's not accurate that ended okay I'm it's not accurate that ended okay I'm it's not accurate that ended okay I'm not going to go there uh under not going to go there uh under not going to go there uh under international law use kogan or international law use kogan or international law use kogan or peremptory Norms of international law peremptory Norms of international law peremptory Norms of international law the inadmissibility of the acquisition the inadmissibility of the acquisition the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war that is not of territory by war that is not of territory by war that is not controversial it's not vague you controversial it's not vague you controversial it's not vague you couldn't put it more succinctly you couldn't put it more succinctly you couldn't put it more succinctly you cannot acquire territory by force under cannot acquire territory by force under cannot acquire territory by force under international law on the west before 67 international law on the west before 67 international law on the west before 67 who on the STP before 6

who on the STP before 6 who on the STP before 6 M Mr benel don't change the subject if M Mr benel don't change the subject if M Mr benel don't change the subject if you don't know what you're talking about you don't know what you're talking about you don't know what you're talking about at least have the at least humil close has2 gotten to the from humil close has2 gotten to the from tweet five you have no idea what you're tweet five you have no idea what you're tweet five you have no idea what you're talking about it's just so embarrassing talking about it's just so embarrassing talking about it's just so embarrassing at least have some humility between us at least have some humility between us at least have some humility between us we have read maybe 10,000 books on the we have read maybe 10,000 books on the we have read maybe 10,000 books on the topic and you've read two wik media topic and you've read two wik media topic and you've read two wik media entries and you start talking about entries and you start talking about entries and you start talking about chapter 6 do you know what chapter seven chapter 6 do you know what chapter seven chapter 6 do you know what chapter seven is answer me chapter answer me a is answer me chapter answer me a is answer me chapter answer me a question how close is 242 gotten the question how close is 242 gotten the question how close is 242 gotten the Palestinians to a state how close is the Palestinians to a state how close is the Palestinians to a state how close is the 2004 advisory opinion gotten the the 2004 advisory opinion gotten the the 2004 advisory opinion gotten the the West Bank settlement what's your West Bank settlement what's your West Bank settlement what's your alternative the alternative is you it's alternative the alternative is you it's alternative the alternative is you it's not this whatever this making money off not this whatever this making money off not this whatever this making money off the conflict is the the actual the conflict is the the actual the conflict is the the actual alternative the actual alternative alternative the actual alternative alternative the actual alternative should talk about making money you're should talk about making money you're should talk about making money you're media will you go and talk to 50 million media will you go and talk to 50 million media will you go and talk to 50 million different people about your different people about your different people about your awes the issue is you these resolutions awes the issue is you these resolutions awes the issue is you these resolutions have gotten the Palestinians no closer have gotten the Palestinians no closer have gotten the Palestinians no closer because they haven't enforced because of because they haven't enforced because of because they haven't enforced because of the US V they're not going to be enforc the US V they're not going to be enforc the US V they're not going to be enforc wait wait wait if I may if I wait wait wait if I may if I wait wait wait if I may if I may Professor talk about the case for may Professor talk about the case for may Professor talk about the case for genocide Professor genocide Professor genocide Professor Maris because of your logic and I'm not Maris because of your logic and I'm not Maris because of your logic and I'm not disputing it that's why October 7th disputing it that's why October 7th disputing it that's why October 7th happened oh my God because there was no happened oh my God because there was no happened oh my God because there was no options left for those people exactly options left for those people exactly options left for those people exactly and now what options are left after

October only October only optionen only is now an expert on optionen only is now an expert on optionen only is now an expert on Palestinian mentality you're Palestinian mentality you're Palestinian mentality you're contradicting contradicting contradicting mentality Egypt didn't find it necessary mentality Egypt didn't find it necessary mentality Egypt didn't find it necessary Egypt didn't find it necessary to Egypt didn't find it necessary to Egypt didn't find it necessary to negotiate peace with pales Jordan didn't negotiate peace with pales Jordan didn't negotiate peace with pales Jordan didn't find it necessary to negotiate peace find it necessary to negotiate peace find it necessary to negotiate peace with the Palestinian cours didn't didn't with the Palestinian cours didn't didn't with the Palestinian cours didn't didn't the the the palan all of the international palan all of the international palan all of the international law you're contradicting yourself on the law you're contradicting yourself on the law you're contradicting yourself on the one hand you're saying all the one hand you're saying all the one hand you're saying all the Palestinians do was fight and violence Palestinians do was fight and violence Palestinians do was fight and violence and terrorism and all the rest of it but and terrorism and all the rest of it but and terrorism and all the rest of it but on the other hand you're saying they're on the other hand you're saying they're on the other hand you're saying they're expecting salvation from uh uh from un expecting salvation from uh uh from un expecting salvation from uh uh from un resolutions and international cour those resolutions and international cour those resolutions and international cour those aren't violent they're no but it's part aren't violent they're no but it's part aren't violent they're no but it's part of maintaining it's the it's the of maintaining it's the it's the of maintaining it's the it's the continual putting off of negotiating any continual putting off of negotiating any continual putting off of negotiating any solution they' negoti as when arat Tak solution they' negoti as when arat Tak solution they' negoti as when arat Tak 10 days to respond when arat takes 10 10 days to respond when arat takes 10 10 days to respond when arat takes 10 days to respond all over the world days to respond all over the world days to respond all over the world yes put they AC the two states in yes put they AC the two states in yes put they AC the two states in 1975 brace yourself 1975 brace yourself 1975 brace yourself they years ago half century ago they they years ago half century ago they they years ago half century ago they didn't accept the two State solution didn't accept the two State solution didn't accept the two State solution very good article you can quote Arafat very good article you can quote Arafat very good article you can quote Arafat talking about how he's lying and he's talking about how he's lying and he's talking about how he's lying and he's just going to use a 94 and a 95 when just going to use a 94 and a 95 when just going to use a 94 and a 95 when he's making trips around the world how he's making trips around the world how he's making trips around the world how he just want the starting ground I I'm he just want the starting ground I I'm he just want the starting ground I I'm sorry I can talk slow you can watch sorry I can talk slow you can watch sorry I can talk slow you can watch YouTu Slow Down to5 Speed if you don't YouTu Slow Down to5 Speed if you don't YouTu Slow Down to5 Speed if you don't understand what I'm saying let me understand what I'm saying let me understand what I'm saying let me there's a very there's a very lengthy there's a very there's a very lengthy there's a very there's a very lengthy history of Israeli Palestinian history of Israeli Palestinian history of Israeli Palestinian negotiations you want to deny that those negotiations you want to deny that those negotiations you want to deny that those NE negotiations took place where it

NE negotiations took place where it NE negotiations took place where it feels like there was a a good faith feels like there was a a good faith feels like there was a a good faith effort where where there was a good effort where where there was a good effort where where there was a good faith effort where it was a good faith faith effort where it was a good faith faith effort where it was a good faith effort record all due respect we have a effort record all due respect we have a effort record all due respect we have a written Mr Pop you can't even read the written Mr Pop you can't even read the written Mr Pop you can't even read the written records I don't know why you're written records I don't know why you're written records I don't know why you're referring to excuse me I just said there referring to excuse me I just said there referring to excuse me I just said there are 15,000 pages on Annapolis and I'm are 15,000 pages on Annapolis and I'm are 15,000 pages on Annapolis and I'm sure you Cherry quied your favorite sure you Cherry quied your favorite sure you Cherry quied your favorite quotes from all of them okay that's quotes from all of them okay that's quotes from all of them okay that's great great at least I a quote to great great at least I a quote to great great at least I a quote to charity charity charity great want I gave you quotes I give you great want I gave you quotes I give you great want I gave you quotes I give you you want quotes find me the information you want quotes find me the information you want quotes find me the information the Palestinian cause has been furthered the Palestinian cause has been furthered the Palestinian cause has been furthered by any international law you can't do it by any international law you can't do it by any international law you can't do it I think the problem is is is different I think the problem is is is different I think the problem is is is different okay you you want to um say the okay you you want to um say the okay you you want to um say the Palestinians were only fighting and then Palestinians were only fighting and then Palestinians were only fighting and then when I point out they've also gone to when I point out they've also gone to when I point out they've also gone to the court and the UN say well all they the court and the UN say well all they the court and the UN say well all they do then as these things and you said do then as these things and you said do then as these things and you said they should be negotiating and I they should be negotiating and I they should be negotiating and I demonstrate that there was a lengthy um demonstrate that there was a lengthy um demonstrate that there was a lengthy um uh record of negotiations said yeah but uh record of negotiations said yeah but uh record of negotiations said yeah but they didn't go in good faith again they didn't go in good faith again they didn't go in good faith again you're placing the hamster in the wheel you're placing the hamster in the wheel you're placing the hamster in the wheel and telling him if he runs fast enough and telling him if he runs fast enough and telling him if he runs fast enough maybe one day he'll get out of the cage maybe one day he'll get out of the cage maybe one day he'll get out of the cage what was the best negation if I could what was the best negation if I could what was the best negation if I could just finish I I think the fundamental just finish I I think the fundamental just finish I I think the fundamental problem here is not what the problem here is not what the problem here is not what the Palestinians have and haven't done and Palestinians have and haven't done and Palestinians have and haven't done and it's perfectly legitimate to have a it's perfectly legitimate to have a it's perfectly legitimate to have a discussion about whether they could have discussion about whether they could have discussion about whether they could have been more effective of course they could been more effective of course they could been more effective of course they could have been more effective everyone could have been more effective everyone could have been more effective everyone could have always been more effective the have always been more effective the have always been more effective the fundamental issue here is that Israel fundamental issue here is that Israel fundamental issue here is that Israel has never been prepared to concede the

has never been prepared to concede the has never been prepared to concede the legitimacy of Palestinian national legitimacy of Palestinian national legitimacy of Palestinian national rights in the land of the former British rights in the land of the former British rights in the land of the former British Mandate of palestin how do you explain Mandate of palestin how do you explain Mandate of palestin how do you explain taba Summit how do you explain taba Summit how do you explain taba Summit how do you explain the did how do the did how do the did how do youy of Palestinian demands this is but youy of Palestinian demands this is but youy of Palestinian demands this is but they just didn't want to give the they just didn't want to give the they just didn't want to give the Palestinians all of Palestine that's all Palestinians all of Palestine that's all Palestinians all of Palestine that's all no all of Palestine of pal you mean all no all of Palestine of pal you mean all no all of Palestine of pal you mean all of the occupied territories you're of the occupied territories you're of the occupied territories you're talking about all of Palestine what the talking about all of Palestine what the talking about all of Palestine what the occup what is the occupied territories occup what is the occupied territories occup what is the occupied territories the occupied territor all Israel the the occupied territor all Israel the the occupied territor all Israel the occupied territories are those occupied territories are those occupied territories are those territories that Israel occupied in June territories that Israel occupied in June territories that Israel occupied in June of 1967 pans often use that term to of 1967 pans often use that term to of 1967 pans often use that term to define the whole of pal not just the define the whole of pal not just the define the whole of pal not just the West Bank could you show me Professor West Bank could you show me Professor West Bank could you show me Professor Morris in all the Morris in all the Morris in all the negotiations all the negotiations and negotiations all the negotiations and negotiations all the negotiations and all the accounts that have written can all the accounts that have written can all the accounts that have written can you show me you show me you show me one where the Palestinians in the one where the Palestinians in the one where the Palestinians in the negotiations cuz that's what we were negotiations cuz that's what we were negotiations cuz that's what we were talking about wanted all of Israel the talking about wanted all of Israel the talking about wanted all of Israel the maximum I they can't say that because maximum I they can't say that because maximum I they can't say that because International Community won't accept it International Community won't accept it International Community won't accept it they didn't say it they didn't ask for they didn't say it they didn't ask for they didn't say it they didn't ask for it Hamas did Hamas always said Hamas it Hamas did Hamas always said Hamas it Hamas did Hamas always said Hamas only negotiated with Israel about only negotiated with Israel about only negotiated with Israel about prisoner exchanges in so we were talking prisoner exchanges in so we were talking prisoner exchanges in so we were talking a lot of the palan people will agre the a lot of the palan people will agre the a lot of the palan people will agre the only place I saw pieces of Israel were only place I saw pieces of Israel were only place I saw pieces of Israel were the land swaps and the land swaps the land swaps and the land swaps the land swaps and the land swaps accounted for about 2 to 5% of Israel accounted for about 2 to 5% of Israel accounted for about 2 to 5% of Israel nobody asked for all of Israel why what

nobody asked for all of Israel why what nobody asked for all of Israel why what do you mean they asked for all of Israel do you mean they asked for all of Israel do you mean they asked for all of Israel in 48 they asked for all of Israel in 67 in 48 they asked for all of Israel in 67 in 48 they asked for all of Israel in 67 what do you think those were about what do you think those were about what do you think those were about you're not going to respond to anything you're not going to respond to anything you're not going to respond to anything I'm saying you have no answer respond to I'm saying you have no answer respond to I'm saying you have no answer respond to you that's correct okay Mr benel we were you that's correct okay Mr benel we were you that's correct okay Mr benel we were talking about the Diplomatic talking about the Diplomatic talking about the Diplomatic negotiations beginning with 20 negotiations beginning with 20 negotiations beginning with 20 200021 can't pretend that the for isra 200021 can't pretend that the for isra 200021 can't pretend that the for isra was in diplomacy it was through War you was in diplomacy it was through War you was in diplomacy it was through War you don't know what you're talking about is don't know what you're talking about is don't know what you're talking about is the international law argument ever the international law argument ever the international law argument ever going to get the Palestinians closer to going to get the Palestinians closer to going to get the Palestinians closer to St is the Israeli State ever going to be St is the Israeli State ever going to be St is the Israeli State ever going to be dismantled do you think that's like dismantled do you think that's like dismantled do you think that's like realistic coming up ever in the next 20 realistic coming up ever in the next 20 realistic coming up ever in the next 20 years again I'm I'm posing a years again I'm I'm posing a years again I'm I'm posing a question um and the question is question um and the question is question um and the question is regardless of of of what's feasible or regardless of of of what's feasible or regardless of of of what's feasible or realistic today um the question I'm realistic today um the question I'm realistic today um the question I'm posing is can you have peace in the posing is can you have peace in the posing is can you have peace in the Middle East with this militant Middle East with this militant Middle East with this militant irrational genocidal irrational genocidal irrational genocidal aparti State and power L I don't think aparti State and power L I don't think aparti State and power L I don't think so now okay and the question I'm asking so now okay and the question I'm asking so now okay and the question I'm asking is can you have peace with this regime is can you have peace with this regime is can you have peace with this regime or does this regime and its or does this regime and its or does this regime and its institutions need to be dismantled institutions need to be dismantled institutions need to be dismantled similar to what the examples I gave of similar to what the examples I gave of similar to what the examples I gave of of of Europe and southern Africa how do of of Europe and southern Africa how do of of Europe and southern Africa how do you contend with the fact that most of you contend with the fact that most of you contend with the fact that most of the surrounding Arab states seem to the surrounding Arab states seem to the surrounding Arab states seem to agree that you can yeah you're correct agree that you can yeah you're correct agree that you can yeah you're correct um several of them most importantly um several of them most importantly um several of them most importantly Egypt uh Jordan have made their peace um Egypt uh Jordan have made their peace um Egypt uh Jordan have made their peace um uh with Israel I should add that uh with Israel I should add that uh with Israel I should add that Israel's conduct since then has placed

Israel's conduct since then has placed Israel's conduct since then has placed these uh relations under strain I I had these uh relations under strain I I had these uh relations under strain I I had very little um uh I didn't take uh the very little um uh I didn't take uh the very little um uh I didn't take uh the reports of a Saudi Israeli rushma reports of a Saudi Israeli rushma reports of a Saudi Israeli rushma particularly seriously before October particularly seriously before October particularly seriously before October 7th the reason being that it was really 7th the reason being that it was really 7th the reason being that it was really a Saudi Israeli us deal which committed a Saudi Israeli us deal which committed a Saudi Israeli us deal which committed the US um to make certain commitments to the US um to make certain commitments to the US um to make certain commitments to Saudi Arabia that would probably never Saudi Arabia that would probably never Saudi Arabia that would probably never get through um Congress you not consider get through um Congress you not consider get through um Congress you not consider the Egypt Israeli peace deal legitimate the Egypt Israeli peace deal legitimate the Egypt Israeli peace deal legitimate then since is since the United States then since is since the United States then since is since the United States made a great financial contribution to made a great financial contribution to made a great financial contribution to Egypt I don't think the question is Egypt I don't think the question is Egypt I don't think the question is whether that deal is um uh legitimate or whether that deal is um uh legitimate or whether that deal is um uh legitimate or not I think I think that deal um uh not I think I think that deal um uh not I think I think that deal um uh exists but the point is um whether you exists but the point is um whether you exists but the point is um whether you know the the the core of this conflict know the the the core of this conflict know the the the core of this conflict is not between Israel and Egypt is not between Israel and Egypt is not between Israel and Egypt the core of this conflict is between the core of this conflict is between the core of this conflict is between Israel and the Palestinian people and Israel and the Palestinian people and Israel and the Palestinian people and the reason that Israel agreed to the reason that Israel agreed to the reason that Israel agreed to relinquish um the occupied Egyptian sin relinquish um the occupied Egyptian sin relinquish um the occupied Egyptian sin and the reason that Egyption Israeli and the reason that Egyption Israeli and the reason that Egyption Israeli peace treaty was signed in 1979 is peace treaty was signed in 1979 is peace treaty was signed in 1979 is because Israel in because Israel in because Israel in 1973 recognized that its military super 1973 recognized that its military super 1973 recognized that its military super superiority was ultimately no match for superiority was ultimately no match for superiority was ultimately no match for Egypt's determination to recover its Egypt's determination to recover its Egypt's determination to recover its occupied territories and that there occupied territories and that there occupied territories and that there would come a point when Egypt would find would come a point when Egypt would find would come a point when Egypt would find a way to extract an unbearable price a way to extract an unbearable price a way to extract an unbearable price maybe just the Israelis wanted peace maybe just the Israelis wanted peace maybe just the Israelis wanted peace well the Israelis not just because they well the Israelis not just because they well the Israelis not just because they were afraid of what Egypt might do if

were afraid of what Egypt might do if were afraid of what Egypt might do if you're talking about the average Israeli you're talking about the average Israeli you're talking about the average Israeli citizen I I think that's a fair citizen I I think that's a fair citizen I I think that's a fair characterization if you're talking about characterization if you're talking about characterization if you're talking about the Israeli leadership I think they the Israeli leadership I think they the Israeli leadership I think they looked at it in more strategic terms how looked at it in more strategic terms how looked at it in more strategic terms how do you remove the most powerful two do you remove the most powerful two do you remove the most powerful two point two point simple points what was point two point simple points what was point two point simple points what was the terms of that Egypt Israel the terms of that Egypt Israel the terms of that Egypt Israel peace peace peace treaty international law Egypt demanded treaty international law Egypt demanded treaty international law Egypt demanded every nobody cared about interal allow every nobody cared about interal allow every nobody cared about interal allow me to finish every single inch no about me to finish every single inch no about me to finish every single inch no about international law international law international law uhur and sad talked about the uhur and sad talked about the uhur and sad talked about the reality territory Professor Maris reality territory Professor Maris reality territory Professor Maris Professor Professor Professor Maris I know the Maris I know the Maris I know the record they demanded as you know cuz record they demanded as you know cuz record they demanded as you know cuz you've written about you've written about you've written about they demanded every square inch as you they demanded every square inch as you they demanded every square inch as you know they demanded the oil fields be know they demanded the oil fields be know they demanded the oil fields be dismantled the Airfield no not dismantled the Airfield no not dismantled the Airfield no not dismantled they wanted the oil field dismantled they wanted the oil field dismantled they wanted the oil field they wanted the settlements dismantled they wanted the settlements dismantled they wanted the settlements dismantled settlements dismantled the settlements settlements dismantled the settlements settlements dismantled the settlements the oil fields and the Airfield they the oil fields and the Airfield they the oil fields and the Airfield they demanded all three back you can't have demanded all three back you can't have demanded all three back you can't have what do you mean back the airfields what do you mean back the airfields what do you mean back the airfields weren't there when the EG were there weren't there when the EG were there weren't there when the EG were there okay that's incorrect what's you're okay that's incorrect what's you're okay that's incorrect what's you're incorrect they built an Airfield the incorrect they built an Airfield the incorrect they built an Airfield the Israelis built an Airfield in the Israelis built an Airfield in the Israelis built an Airfield in the occupied occupied occupied and they wanted it back they didn't want and they wanted it back they didn't want and they wanted it back they didn't want it back wasn't their okay they wanted it back wasn't their okay they wanted it back wasn't their okay they wanted the territory in which they is built the territory in which they is built the territory in which they is built back oil fields the airfields the back oil fields the airfields the back oil fields the airfields the settlements have to be dismantled yes settlements have to be dismantled yes settlements have to be dismantled yes ban said I don't want to be the first

ban said I don't want to be the first ban said I don't want to be the first prime minister to dismantle settlement prime minister to dismantle settlement prime minister to dismantle settlement but he did why because of the law but he did why because of the law but he did why because of the law because of ital the law law had nothing because of ital the law law had nothing because of ital the law law had nothing to do anything it was a negotiation to do anything it was a negotiation to do anything it was a negotiation between two states Each of which wanted between two states Each of which wanted between two states Each of which wanted certain certain certain the law had nothing to do said the law had nothing to do said the law had nothing to do said repeatedly in the negotiations you're repeatedly in the negotiations you're repeatedly in the negotiations you're not listening you're missing the point not listening you're missing the point not listening you're missing the point read the negotiations nothing to do two read the negotiations nothing to do two read the negotiations nothing to do two foreign relations of us volumes on it foreign relations of us volumes on it foreign relations of us volumes on it nobody cares about the law the nobody cares about the law the nobody cares about the law the Palestinians kept saying we want ex the Palestinians kept saying we want ex the Palestinians kept saying we want ex the palan they weren't there allow me to palan they weren't there allow me to palan they weren't there allow me to finish the Palestinians kept saying we finish the Palestinians kept saying we finish the Palestinians kept saying we want what Egypt got we want what Egypt want what Egypt got we want what Egypt want what Egypt got we want what Egypt got Egypt got everything back nothing to got Egypt got everything back nothing to got Egypt got everything back nothing to do with the law okay nothing to do with do with the law okay nothing to do with do with the law okay nothing to do with and number two I'm not saying it's the and number two I'm not saying it's the and number two I'm not saying it's the whole picture but as foreign minister whole picture but as foreign minister whole picture but as foreign minister MOA Dean said at the time he said if a MOA Dean said at the time he said if a MOA Dean said at the time he said if a car has four car has four car has four wheels and you remove one wheel the car wheels and you remove one wheel the car wheels and you remove one wheel the car can't move and for them removing Egypt can't move and for them removing Egypt can't move and for them removing Egypt from the Arab front would then remove from the Arab front would then remove from the Arab front would then remove any Arab military threat to Israel m m any Arab military threat to Israel m m any Arab military threat to Israel m m was no the first part did and that's was no the first part did and that's was no the first part did and that's what the Palestinians kept what the Palestinians kept what the Palestinians kept saying what Egypt got from that's true saying what Egypt got from that's true saying what Egypt got from that's true but forget into National Law and by the but forget into National Law and by the but forget into National Law and by the way to do one last thing one last on a way to do one last thing one last on a way to do one last thing one last on a personal note the quote about charm personal note the quote about charm personal note the quote about charm Shake without peace okay that's the only

Shake without peace okay that's the only Shake without peace okay that's the only thing you ever cited from a book of mine thing you ever cited from a book of mine thing you ever cited from a book of mine you I cited from your book yes I was you I cited from your book yes I was you I cited from your book yes I was absolutely shocked at your betrayal of absolutely shocked at your betrayal of absolutely shocked at your betrayal of your people that was your your people that was your your people that was your treason it was I apologize for that I treason it was I apologize for that I treason it was I apologize for that I apologize I apologize I accept all right apologize I apologize I accept all right apologize I apologize I accept all right well let me try once again uh for the well let me try once again uh for the well let me try once again uh for the region and for just entirety of humanity region and for just entirety of humanity region and for just entirety of humanity what gives you hope we just heard a lot what gives you hope we just heard a lot what gives you hope we just heard a lot of pessimistic cynical takes what gives of pessimistic cynical takes what gives of pessimistic cynical takes what gives you hope don't like War that's that's a you hope don't like War that's that's a you hope don't like War that's that's a good reason that's hope in other words good reason that's hope in other words good reason that's hope in other words the fear of war the dis disaster of War the fear of war the dis disaster of War the fear of war the dis disaster of War should give people an a impetus to try should give people an a impetus to try should give people an a impetus to try and seek peace when you look the people and seek peace when you look the people and seek peace when you look the people in Gaza and people in the West Bank in Gaza and people in the West Bank in Gaza and people in the West Bank people in Israel fundamentally no but people in Israel fundamentally no but people in Israel fundamentally no but fundamentally they hate War yes I think fundamentally they hate War yes I think fundamentally they hate War yes I think so what what gives you hope there is no so what what gives you hope there is no so what what gives you hope there is no hope no it's an extreme no I'm hey I'm hope no it's an extreme no I'm hey I'm hope no it's an extreme no I'm hey I'm not happy to say that of course you are not happy to say that of course you are not happy to say that of course you are it's a it's a very Bleak moment right now a it's a very Bleak moment right now because that I agree with I agree with because that I agree with I agree with because that I agree with I agree with that Israel believes it has to restore that Israel believes it has to restore that Israel believes it has to restore what it calls its what it calls its what it calls its uh deterrence uh deterrence uh deterrence capability I think you've written about capability I think you've written about capability I think you've written about it actually I just realized Israel has it actually I just realized Israel has it actually I just realized Israel has to restore its deterrence cap capability to restore its deterrence cap capability to restore its deterrence cap capability and after the catastrophe of October 7th and after the catastrophe of October 7th and after the catastrophe of October 7th restoring its deterrence capacity means restoring its deterrence capacity means restoring its deterrence capacity means this part you didn't write about the this part you didn't write about the this part you didn't write about the annihilation of Gaza and then moving on

annihilation of Gaza and then moving on annihilation of Gaza and then moving on to the Hezbollah no so so the Israelis to the Hezbollah no so so the Israelis to the Hezbollah no so so the Israelis are dead set on restoring that are dead set on restoring that are dead set on restoring that deterrence capability deterrence capability deterrence capability on the Arab side and I Know M and I have on the Arab side and I Know M and I have on the Arab side and I Know M and I have disagreed on it and we're allowed to disagreed on it and we're allowed to disagreed on it and we're allowed to disagree um I think the Arab side the disagree um I think the Arab side the disagree um I think the Arab side the lesson they learned from October 7th is lesson they learned from October 7th is lesson they learned from October 7th is Israelis aren't as strong as we thought Israelis aren't as strong as we thought Israelis aren't as strong as we thought they they they were and that will be an unfortunate were and that will be an unfortunate were and that will be an unfortunate unfortunate message that's really what unfortunate message that's really what unfortunate message that's really what the come to think and they think that the come to think and they think that the come to think and they think that there is a military option now and I there is a military option now and I there is a military option now and I think that that's it's a zero sum game think that that's it's a zero sum game think that that's it's a zero sum game at this point and it's very very B at this point and it's very very B at this point and it's very very B and I'm not going to lie about that now and I'm not going to lie about that now and I'm not going to lie about that now I will admit my I will admit my I will admit my predictive capacities are perfect are predictive capacities are perfect are predictive capacities are perfect are limited but for the moment it's a very limited but for the moment it's a very limited but for the moment it's a very Bleak situation that I agree with and I Bleak situation that I agree with and I Bleak situation that I agree with and I don't see right now a way out however at don't see right now a way out however at don't see right now a way out however at the very the very the very minimum permanent ceasefire ended inh minimum permanent ceasefire ended inh minimum permanent ceasefire ended inh human and illegal blockade of Gaza and human and illegal blockade of Gaza and human and illegal blockade of Gaza and uh why is it illegal they were shooting uh why is it illegal they were shooting uh why is it illegal they were shooting rockets at Israel for for 20 years why rockets at Israel for for 20 years why rockets at Israel for for 20 years why is that illegal to blockade Gaza he is that illegal to blockade Gaza he is that illegal to blockade Gaza he thinks bottle thinks bottle thinks bottle Ro why is it illegal I'll tell you why Ro why is it illegal I'll tell you why Ro why is it illegal I'll tell you why you don't rocket your neighbor you you don't rocket your neighbor you you don't rocket your neighbor you rocket your neighbor expect consequences rocket your neighbor expect consequences rocket your neighbor expect consequences I'll tell expect consequences but that I'll tell expect consequences but that I'll tell expect consequences but that works both way I know professor works both way I know professor works both way I know professor professor both I'll tell you why because

professor both I'll tell you why because professor both I'll tell you why because every human rights humanitarian and un every human rights humanitarian and un every human rights humanitarian and un organization in the world has said organization in the world has said organization in the world has said said nobody cares said nobody cares said nobody cares it's a form of collective punishment it's a form of collective punishment it's a form of collective punishment illegal under International La you think illegal under International La you think illegal under International La you think you think a blockade you don't you think a blockade you don't you think a blockade you don't understand the way the world works these understand the way the world works these understand the way the world works these things are irrelevant and you think things are irrelevant and you think things are irrelevant and you think confining because that's the blockade confining because that's the blockade confining because that's the blockade yes you don't confing confining a yes you don't confing confining a yes you don't confing confining a million children confining that's the million children confining that's the million children confining that's the choice comining million children in what choice comining million children in what choice comining million children in what the economist called a human rubbish the economist called a human rubbish the economist called a human rubbish sheep The Economist supported Israel in sheep The Economist supported Israel in sheep The Economist supported Israel in this war and continued to support Israel this war and continued to support Israel this war and continued to support Israel what um International Committee of Red what um International Committee of Red what um International Committee of Red Cross called a sinking ship with the UN Cross called a sinking ship with the UN Cross called a sinking ship with the UN High Commissioner for human rights High Commissioner for human rights High Commissioner for human rights called a toxic slum you think it is a called a toxic slum you think it is a called a toxic slum you think it is a slum of course SL you think but it's slum of course SL you think but it's slum of course SL you think but it's caused under international law you think caused under international law you think caused under international law you think it's it's it's legitimate hey I know you want to forget legitimate hey I know you want to forget legitimate hey I know you want to forget the law one thing that every what every the law one thing that every what every the law one thing that every what every Israeli fears the most the LA Israeli fears the most the LA Israeli fears the most the LA as Cy ly said I studied international as Cy ly said I studied international as Cy ly said I studied international law I oppose international law of course law I oppose international law of course law I oppose international law of course you don't want to hear about the law you don't want to hear about the law you don't want to hear about the law it's got nothing to do anything okay so it's got nothing to do anything okay so it's got nothing to do anything okay so here's the thing yeah then don't here's the thing yeah then don't here's the thing yeah then don't complain about October 7th if you don't complain about October 7th if you don't complain about October 7th if you don't want if you want to say forget about the want if you want to say forget about the want if you want to say forget about the law all I said was like Barb there is no

law all I said was like Barb there is no law all I said was like Barb there is no International humanitarian law There's International humanitarian law There's International humanitarian law There's no distinction between civilians and no distinction between civilians and no distinction between civilians and combatants be and combatants be and combatants be and so now you're doing what Meen said so now you're doing what Meen said so now you're doing what Meen said you're becoming very selective about the you're becoming very selective about the you're becoming very selective about the law if you want to forget about the law law if you want to forget about the law law if you want to forget about the law Hamas had every right to do what it did Hamas had every right to do what it did Hamas had every right to do what it did it had every right to do what it did it had every right to do what it did it had every right to do what it did according to you not to me cuz you want according to you not to me cuz you want according to you not to me cuz you want to forget the law do you still support to forget the law do you still support to forget the law do you still support the houthis shooting random ships the houthis shooting random ships the houthis shooting random ships absolutely okay that's a violation of absolutely okay that's a violation of absolutely okay that's a violation of international law you play the same game international law you play the same game international law you play the same game absolutely and were there a power during absolutely and were there a power during absolutely and were there a power during World War II who had the courage of the World War II who had the courage of the World War II who had the courage of the houthis where there a power that had houthis where there a power that had houthis where there a power that had that kind of cage to be bombing Merchant that kind of cage to be bombing Merchant that kind of cage to be bombing Merchant ships while tens of thousands of people ships while tens of thousands of people ships while tens of thousands of people die of actual starvation not the die of actual starvation not the die of actual starvation not the starvation that exists in the Gaza Strip starvation that exists in the Gaza Strip starvation that exists in the Gaza Strip where people before October don't die of where people before October don't die of where people before October don't die of starvation not that not the starvation not that not the starvation not that not the concentration C the what about concentration C the what about concentration C the what about starvation in Yen don't they have starvation in Yen don't they have starvation in Yen don't they have something better to do was the hoies yes something better to do was the hoies yes something better to do was the hoies yes I know don't don't they have anything in I know don't don't they have anything in I know don't don't they have anything in three years 180,000 should they be three years 180,000 should they be three years 180,000 should they be feeding feeding feeding 60,000 why fight starvation why fight 60,000 why fight starvation why fight 60,000 why fight starvation why fight the Western powers in Israel when you the Western powers in Israel when you the Western powers in Israel when you should be taking care of your problems should be taking care of your problems should be taking care of your problems at home the htis often the only allies at home the htis often the only allies at home the htis often the only allies of the dispossessed are those who of the dispossessed are those who of the dispossessed are those who experience similar circumstances don't experience similar circumstances don't experience similar circumstances don't you think that they should take take you think that they should take take you think that they should take take care of the Yemen yemeni problems I'm care of the Yemen yemeni problems I'm care of the Yemen yemeni problems I'm very happy I'm very happy they're very happy I'm very happy they're very happy I'm very happy they're helping out the Palestinians anyone who helping out the Palestinians anyone who helping out the Palestinians anyone who helps expense of anybody for anybody who

helps expense of anybody for anybody who helps expense of anybody for anybody who comes to the aid of those suffering a comes to the aid of those suffering a comes to the aid of those suffering a genocide half of half of whom are genocide half of half of whom are genocide half of half of whom are children yeah according to the most children yeah according to the most children yeah according to the most current un reports as of today one current un reports as of today one current un reports as of today one quarter of the population of Gaza is quarter of the population of Gaza is quarter of the population of Gaza is starving that means 500,000 children are starving that means 500,000 children are starving that means 500,000 children are starving are on the verge of famine they starving are on the verge of famine they starving are on the verge of famine they keep saying on the verge of on thege not keep saying on the verge of on thege not keep saying on the verge of on thege not seen I have not seen one Palestinian die seen I have not seen one Palestinian die seen I have not seen one Palestinian die of starvation in these last four months of starvation in these last four months of starvation in these last four months not one on the verge on the verge they not one on the verge on the verge they not one on the verge on the verge they have been documented cases I haven't have been documented cases I haven't have been documented cases I haven't seen yesterday aler said six and the day seen yesterday aler said six and the day seen yesterday aler said six and the day before that they said two so those are before that they said two so those are before that they said two so those are the the two the that number probably the the two the that number probably the the two the that number probably dies in Israel of starvation also I dies in Israel of starvation also I dies in Israel of starvation also I don't think there's famine in Israel don't think there's famine in Israel don't think there's famine in Israel there isn't there isn't in the Gaza there isn't there isn't in the Gaza there isn't there isn't in the Gaza Strip either it's something which is Strip either it's something which is Strip either it's something which is produced for the Western there are produced for the Western there are produced for the Western there are infants dying due to a engineered lack infants dying due to a engineered lack infants dying due to a engineered lack of access to food and nutrition I don't of access to food and nutrition I don't of access to food and nutrition I don't think it's engineered I think if the think it's engineered I think if the think it's engineered I think if the Kamas stopped shooting perhaps Kamas stopped shooting perhaps Kamas stopped shooting perhaps unfortunately as you said engineered I unfortunately as you said engineered I unfortunately as you said engineered I think um amnesty and excuse me human think um amnesty and excuse me human think um amnesty and excuse me human Rights Watch called it using starvation Rights Watch called it using starvation Rights Watch called it using starvation as a weapon that's called engineering as a weapon that's called engineering as a weapon that's called engineering okay that's what they did but you were okay that's what they did but you were okay that's what they did but you were pushed on this by Coleman Hughes to pushed on this by Coleman Hughes to pushed on this by Coleman Hughes to bring up like an example of why is the bring up like an example of why is the bring up like an example of why is the Gaza Strip like what by what metric are Gaza Strip like what by what metric are Gaza Strip like what by what metric are they starving by what metric is it so they starving by what metric is it so they starving by what metric is it so behind the rest of the world you know if behind the rest of the world you know if behind the rest of the world you know if we're going to bring up um I want to we're going to bring up um I want to we're going to bring up um I want to hear and answer that CU he didn't answer hear and answer that CU he didn't answer hear and answer that CU he didn't answer I'm happy to answer it yeah I just I'm happy to answer it yeah I just I'm happy to answer it yeah I just quoted you from the humanitarian quoted you from the humanitarian quoted you from the humanitarian organizations they said one quarter of organizations they said one quarter of organizations they said one quarter of the population of Gaza is now verging on

the population of Gaza is now verging on the population of Gaza is now verging on famine before October 7 before October famine before October 7 before October famine before October 7 before October going before October you use that as going before October you use that as going before October you use that as justification Hamas fighting you say the justification Hamas fighting you say the justification Hamas fighting you say the conditions were unlivable they had to conditions were unlivable they had to conditions were unlivable they had to fight I said to him so my question is fight I said to him so my question is fight I said to him so my question is what made it unlivable prior to October what made it unlivable prior to October what made it unlivable prior to October 7th what are the what are the metrics 7th what are the what are the metrics 7th what are the what are the metrics that you're using there were about five that you're using there were about five that you're using there were about five six or seven reports issued by unad six or seven reports issued by unad six or seven reports issued by unad issued by the World Bank issued by the issued by the World Bank issued by the issued by the World Bank issued by the international monetary fund and they all international monetary fund and they all international monetary fund and they all said that's why that's why why did they said that's why that's why why did they said that's why that's why why did they say why why did they say that's why the say why why did they say that's why the say why why did they say that's why the economist not a radical periodical economist not a radical periodical economist not a radical periodical described Gaza as a human rubbish so described Gaza as a human rubbish so described Gaza as a human rubbish so tell me by what tell me by what tell me by what metrics if you're if you're a historian metrics if you're if you're a historian metrics if you're if you're a historian if you do all this work to do things if you do all this work to do things if you do all this work to do things tell me what they tell me what they tell me what they said tell me by what he's not going to said tell me by what he's not going to said tell me by what he's not going to answer again I I don't think I've answer again I I don't think I've answer again I I don't think I've avoided any of your questions except avoided any of your questions except avoided any of your questions except except when they breach when they breach except when they breach when they breach except when they breach when they breach the threshold of complete imbecility to the threshold of complete imbecility to the threshold of complete imbecility to tell me by what metric the Gaza Strip is tell me by what metric the Gaza Strip is tell me by what metric the Gaza Strip is a human crisis you remember what I said a human crisis you remember what I said a human crisis you remember what I said a moment ago I said to Professor Mars I a moment ago I said to Professor Mars I a moment ago I said to Professor Mars I defer to defer to defer to expertise I I look at what the expertise I I look at what the expertise I I look at what the organizations say I look at what the organizations say I look at what the organizations say I look at what the United Nations High Commissioner for United Nations High Commissioner for United Nations High Commissioner for human rights that you don't know you human rights that you don't know you human rights that you don't know you don't know you don't care I don't know don't know you don't care I don't know don't know you don't care I don't know you know how complicated have you ever you know how complicated have you ever you know how complicated have you ever investigated how complicated is the investigated how complicated is the investigated how complicated is the metric for Hunger starvation and famine metric for Hunger starvation and famine metric for Hunger starvation and famine it is such a complicated metric they it is such a complicated metric they it is such a complicated metric they figured out if you asked me to repeat it figured out if you asked me to repeat it figured out if you asked me to repeat it now I couldn't do it and yet we have a now I couldn't do it and yet we have a now I couldn't do it and yet we have a human development index where we rank

human development index where we rank human development index where we rank countries yet we can still measure countries yet we can still measure countries yet we can still measure infant mortality life expect infant mortality life expect infant mortality life expect yeah we can measure all of these yeah we can measure all of these yeah we can measure all of these things I'm holding out for you here you things I'm holding out for you here you things I'm holding out for you here you still didn't answer the Hope question still didn't answer the Hope question still didn't answer the Hope question what gives you a source of Hope about what gives you a source of Hope about what gives you a source of Hope about the region well first of all I would the region well first of all I would the region well first of all I would agree with beny Morris and and Norman agree with beny Morris and and Norman agree with beny Morris and and Norman finklestein um that the current finklestein um that the current finklestein um that the current situation is Bleak and I think it would situation is Bleak and I think it would situation is Bleak and I think it would be um unreasonable to expect it to not be um unreasonable to expect it to not be um unreasonable to expect it to not get even get even get even Bleaker uh in the coming week and months Bleaker uh in the coming week and months Bleaker uh in the coming week and months and we now this and we now this and we now this conflict really it originated in the conflict really it originated in the conflict really it originated in the late 19th century it's late 19th century it's late 19th century it's been um been a more or less active been um been a more or less active been um been a more or less active conflict since the 1920s conflict since the 1920s conflict since the 1920s 1930s um and has produced a tremendous 1930s um and has produced a tremendous 1930s um and has produced a tremendous amount of of of suffering and and amount of of of suffering and and amount of of of suffering and and regional conflict and regional conflict and regional conflict and geopolitical complications and all of geopolitical complications and all of geopolitical complications and all of that uh but what gives me hope is is that uh but what gives me hope is is that uh but what gives me hope is is that throughout their entire that throughout their entire that throughout their entire ordeal um the paltin people have never ordeal um the paltin people have never ordeal um the paltin people have never surrendered um and I believe they never surrendered um and I believe they never surrendered um and I believe they never will surrender to overwhelming force and will surrender to overwhelming force and will surrender to overwhelming force and violence they have taken everything that violence they have taken everything that violence they have taken everything that Israel has thrown at them they have Israel has thrown at them they have Israel has thrown at them they have taken everything that the West has taken everything that the West has taken everything that the West has thrown at them they have taken thrown at them they have taken thrown at them they have taken everything that those who are supposed everything that those who are supposed everything that those who are supposed to be their natural allies have um uh on

to be their natural allies have um uh on to be their natural allies have um uh on occasion uh thrown at them but um this occasion uh thrown at them but um this occasion uh thrown at them but um this is the people that never has and I is the people that never has and I is the people that never has and I believe never will believe never will believe never will surrender and um at a certain point I surrender and um at a certain point I surrender and um at a certain point I think um think um think um Israel uh and its leaders um will have Israel uh and its leaders um will have Israel uh and its leaders um will have to come to the realization that by hook to come to the realization that by hook to come to the realization that by hook or by crook or by crook or by crook um these people are going to achieve um these people are going to achieve um these people are going to achieve their their their inalienable and legitimate um uh inalienable and legitimate um uh inalienable and legitimate um uh National rights and and that that is National rights and and that that is National rights and and that that is going to be a reality I I um as I what going to be a reality I I um as I what going to be a reality I I um as I what do you mean by that you mean all of do you mean by that you mean all of do you mean by that you mean all of Palestine is that what you mean no and Palestine is that what you mean no and Palestine is that what you mean no and and from The River To The Sea well and from The River To The Sea well and from The River To The Sea well ideally of course yes um and and what I ideally of course yes um and and what I ideally of course yes um and and what I was those the inalienable rights no what was those the inalienable rights no what was those the inalienable rights no what I was saying earlier and then the I was saying earlier and then the I was saying earlier and then the discussion got sidetracked is um that I discussion got sidetracked is um that I discussion got sidetracked is um that I did believe that a two-state did believe that a two-state did believe that a two-state settlement um a partition of settlement um a partition of settlement um a partition of Palestine um along the 1967 uh Palestine um along the 1967 uh Palestine um along the 1967 uh boundaries um would have been a boundaries um would have been a boundaries um would have been a reasonable um solution because I think reasonable um solution because I think reasonable um solution because I think it also would have opened Pathways to um it also would have opened Pathways to um it also would have opened Pathways to um further but now you believe what further further but now you believe what further further but now you believe what further nonviolent engagement between Israel and nonviolent engagement between Israel and nonviolent engagement between Israel and the Palestinians that could create um the Palestinians that could create um the Palestinians that could create um other forms of coexistence in a in a other forms of coexistence in a in a other forms of coexistence in a in a federal or bational or or what do you federal or bational or or what do you federal or bational or or what do you think about refugees in regards to that

think about refugees in regards to that think about refugees in regards to that do you think there has to be a do you think there has to be a do you think there has to be a resettlement of the five or six million resettlement of the five or six million resettlement of the five or six million whoever wants to lay claim to be I think whoever wants to lay claim to be I think whoever wants to lay claim to be I think I think there has to be an explicit I think there has to be an explicit I think there has to be an explicit acknowledgment um of uh respons of of a acknowledgment um of uh respons of of a acknowledgment um of uh respons of of a responsibility and and the return and of responsibility and and the return and of responsibility and and the return and of their rights I think that in the their rights I think that in the their rights I think that in the framework of a two-state settlement I framework of a two-state settlement I framework of a two-state settlement I think a formula would need to be found think a formula would need to be found think a formula would need to be found that does not undermine um uh the that does not undermine um uh the that does not undermine um uh the foundations um uh of a two-state foundations um uh of a two-state foundations um uh of a two-state settlement and I don't think settlement and I don't think settlement and I don't think it would be that difficult because I it would be that difficult because I it would be that difficult because I suspect that there are probably large suspect that there are probably large suspect that there are probably large numbers of um Palestinian refugees who numbers of um Palestinian refugees who numbers of um Palestinian refugees who once their rights are acknowledged will once their rights are acknowledged will once their rights are acknowledged will find it um exceptionally distasteful find it um exceptionally distasteful find it um exceptionally distasteful Canada exceptionally distasteful um to Canada exceptionally distasteful um to Canada exceptionally distasteful um to have to live among the kind of have to live among the kind of have to live among the kind of sentiments that we've heard around this sentiments that we've heard around this sentiments that we've heard around this table um today to be quite Frank I mean table um today to be quite Frank I mean table um today to be quite Frank I mean I heard I you know I'm I was previously I heard I you know I'm I was previously I heard I you know I'm I was previously unfamiliar with you um and and I watched unfamiliar with you um and and I watched unfamiliar with you um and and I watched one of your preparation videos uh very one of your preparation videos uh very one of your preparation videos uh very disconcerting stuff I have to say you disconcerting stuff I have to say you disconcerting stuff I have to say you were explaining two days ago in the were explaining two days ago in the were explaining two days ago in the discussion about apartheid and how discussion about apartheid and how discussion about apartheid and how absurd it was that in your view Jim Crow absurd it was that in your view Jim Crow absurd it was that in your view Jim Crow was not was not was not apartheid Jim Crow was not apartheid but apartheid Jim Crow was not apartheid but apartheid Jim Crow was not apartheid but Arab states not giving citizenship to Arab states not giving citizenship to Arab states not giving citizenship to Palestinian refugees is apartheid that's Palestinian refugees is apartheid that's Palestinian refugees is apartheid that's what I meant with my earlier comments what I meant with my earlier comments what I meant with my earlier comments about white supremacy so my issue that's about white supremacy so my issue that's about white supremacy so my issue that's great the white supremacy comment well

great the white supremacy comment well great the white supremacy comment well hold on let me let me respond my issue hold on let me let me respond my issue hold on let me let me respond my issue is that I feel like we have jumped on is that I feel like we have jumped on is that I feel like we have jumped on this euphemistic treadmill and I think this euphemistic treadmill and I think this euphemistic treadmill and I think that's part of the reason why this that's part of the reason why this that's part of the reason why this conflict will never get solved is conflict will never get solved is conflict will never get solved is because on one end you've got a people because on one end you've got a people because on one end you've got a people who are now convinced internationally who are now convinced internationally who are now convinced internationally that they're victims of apartheid that they're victims of apartheid that they're victims of apartheid genocide concentration camp conditions genocide concentration camp conditions genocide concentration camp conditions uh ethnic cleansing uh they're forced to uh ethnic cleansing uh they're forced to uh ethnic cleansing uh they're forced to live in an open air prison um with all live in an open air prison um with all live in an open air prison um with all of these things that are stacked against of these things that are stacked against of these things that are stacked against them all of these terms that are highly them all of these terms that are highly them all of these terms that are highly specific that refer to to very precise specific that refer to to very precise specific that refer to to very precise things uh and then when people like things uh and then when people like things uh and then when people like nothing less from someone who doesn't nothing less from someone who doesn't nothing less from someone who doesn't think Crow is a part I don't know who think Crow is a part I don't know who think Crow is a part I don't know who does stat the problem is you're morally does stat the problem is you're morally does stat the problem is you're morally loading for you a part is when racists loading for you a part is when racists loading for you a part is when racists do bad things no there's there's a do bad things no there's there's a do bad things no there's there's a definition of a part that's definition of a part that's definition of a part that's great top down racial domination enacted great top down racial domination enacted great top down racial domination enacted through top down like federal through top down like federal through top down like federal legislative policies or whatever means legislative policies or whatever means legislative policies or whatever means that I don't know if um I don't know if that I don't know if um I don't know if that I don't know if um I don't know if Jim Crow would have qualified for part Jim Crow would have qualified for part Jim Crow would have qualified for part that doesn't make it any less excus mein that doesn't make it any less excus mein that doesn't make it any less excus mein I'm talking right now excuse me excuse I'm talking right now excuse me excuse I'm talking right now excuse me excuse me twinklin I'm talking to your friend me twinklin I'm talking to your friend me twinklin I'm talking to your friend over here um I don't know would have over here um I don't know would have over here um I don't know would have qualified as the crime of aarth just qualified as the crime of aarth just qualified as the crime of aarth just like if Israel were to literally nuke like if Israel were to literally nuke like if Israel were to literally nuke the Gaza St and kill 2 million people I the Gaza St and kill 2 million people I the Gaza St and kill 2 million people I don't know if that would qualify for the don't know if that would qualify for the don't know if that would qualify for the crime of In Your Eyes probably not I crime of In Your Eyes probably not I crime of In Your Eyes probably not I don't well yeah but because genocide don't well yeah but because genocide don't well yeah but because genocide requires a special intent I think the requires a special intent I think the requires a special intent I think the issue is instead instead of and I think issue is instead instead of and I think issue is instead instead of and I think this conversation is actually is this conversation is actually is this conversation is actually is emblematic of the entire conversation I emblematic of the entire conversation I emblematic of the entire conversation I don't think anything let me finish don't think anything let me finish don't think anything let me finish answering accus me of supporting racism answering accus me of supporting racism answering accus me of supporting racism so yeah I so yeah I so yeah I think I did it do you think I support think I did it do you think I support think I did it do you think I support Jim Jim Jim croww look when the fact that you can't croww look when the fact that you can't croww look when the fact that you can't even answer that honestly say that 800

even answer that honestly say that 800 even answer that honestly say that 800 civilian killed by by Hamas you said civilian killed by by Hamas you said civilian killed by by Hamas you said well maybe 400 were killed by Israel I well maybe 400 were killed by Israel I well maybe 400 were killed by Israel I don't know the number maybe you said 400 don't know the number maybe you said 400 don't know the number maybe you said 400 you co-signed the opinion no I didn't no you co-signed the opinion no I didn't no you co-signed the opinion no I didn't no I didn't well wait how many I think the I didn't well wait how many I think the I didn't well wait how many I think the word was some that's what I heard well word was some that's what I heard well word was some that's what I heard well you weren't listening how many people do you weren't listening how many people do you weren't listening how many people do you think approximately if you had to you think approximately if you had to you think approximately if you had to ball if you had to Ballpark it how many ball if you had to Ballpark it how many ball if you had to Ballpark it how many do you think were killed by Hamas on do you think were killed by Hamas on do you think were killed by Hamas on October 7th I think it's pretty clear October 7th I think it's pretty clear October 7th I think it's pretty clear that the majority of civilians that were that the majority of civilians that were that the majority of civilians that were killed 51% or 90% don't ask me to put a killed 51% or 90% don't ask me to put a killed 51% or 90% don't ask me to put a number those are two very different number those are two very different number those are two very different inition first of all are you when you inition first of all are you when you inition first of all are you when you say Hamas do you mean Palestinians or do say Hamas do you mean Palestinians or do say Hamas do you mean Palestinians or do you mean Hamas specif Palestinian Force you mean Hamas specif Palestinian Force you mean Hamas specif Palestinian Force I don't like to say Palestinians because I don't like to say Palestinians because I don't like to say Palestinians because I don't think all Palestinian civilians I don't think all Palestinian civilians I don't think all Palestinian civilians were inv ATT I'll say Hamas Islamic were inv ATT I'll say Hamas Islamic were inv ATT I'll say Hamas Islamic whatever Al that's how this discussion whatever Al that's how this discussion whatever Al that's how this discussion started you said Hamas and I began to started you said Hamas and I began to started you said Hamas and I began to answer that and then Benny moris said answer that and then Benny moris said answer that and then Benny moris said actually he means Hamas in addition to actually he means Hamas in addition to actually he means Hamas in addition to Jihad and the others so so of the Jihad and the others so so of the Jihad and the others so so of the invading Palestinian Force how many do invading Palestinian Force how many do invading Palestinian Force how many do you think killed civilians versus the you think killed civilians versus the you think killed civilians versus the IDF what do you think the ballpark the IDF what do you think the ballpark the IDF what do you think the ballpark the percentage well the figures we have are percentage well the figures we have are percentage well the figures we have are that about a third of the casualties on that about a third of the casualties on that about a third of the casualties on October 7th were military about two3 October 7th were military about two3 October 7th were military about two3 were what's your question how many what were what's your question how many what were what's your question how many what percentage of civilians think were percentage of civilians think were percentage of civilians think were killed by the invading Force I think I killed by the invading Force I think I killed by the invading Force I think I think a clear majority but I can't give think a clear majority but I can't give think a clear majority but I can't give you a specific figure if you thought it you a specific figure if you thought it you a specific figure if you thought it was close to 51% or 99% we killed by why was close to 51% or 99% we killed by why was close to 51% or 99% we killed by why would he know that how would he know would he know that how would he know would he know that how would he know because it's interesting to actually because it's interesting to actually because it's interesting to actually stake out a position it's you want to be stake out a position it's you want to be stake out a position it's you want to be completely agnostic on it they stop completely agnostic on it they stop completely agnostic on it they stop complete ignorance because we don't know complete ignorance because we don't know complete ignorance because we don't know professor moris doesn't know

professor moris doesn't know professor moris doesn't know you can speak with absolute certainty you can speak with absolute certainty you can speak with absolute certainty that the IDF is targeting and murdering that the IDF is targeting and murdering that the IDF is targeting and murdering Palestinian children intentionally you Palestinian children intentionally you Palestinian children intentionally you see the double standard no I don't you see the double standard no I don't you see the double standard no I don't you see I know you don't it was aoral see I know you don't it was aoral see I know you don't it was aoral question obviously don't why because question obviously don't why because question obviously don't why because because the matter I looked at the UN because the matter I looked at the UN because the matter I looked at the UN report I looked at the report no the UN report I looked at the report no the UN report I looked at the report no the UN report on the great March of return in report on the great March of return in report on the great March of return in 2018 and they said that the snipers were 2018 and they said that the snipers were 2018 and they said that the snipers were targeting children Medics journalists targeting children Medics journalists targeting children Medics journalists and this AED people just as they are now and this AED people just as they are now and this AED people just as they are now in this confence exactly no more in this confence exactly no more in this confence exactly no more journalists have been killed in the last journalists have been killed in the last journalists have been killed in the last several months in Gaza than in any other conf world war Hamas is not killing conf world war Hamas is not killing journalists you agree that they operate journalists you agree that they operate journalists you agree that they operate in civilian uniforms that their goal is in civilian uniforms that their goal is in civilian uniforms that their goal is to induce that confusion that that's the to induce that confusion that that's the to induce that confusion that that's the the way that they conduct themselves the way that they conduct themselves the way that they conduct themselves militarily let me finish my point more militarily let me finish my point more militarily let me finish my point more journalists have been more children he journalists have been more children he journalists have been more children he doesn't want to hear it's soor you're doesn't want to hear it's soor you're doesn't want to hear it's soor you're not having a material it is virt yes not having a material it is virt yes not having a material it is virt yes like when you see children over and over like when you see children over and over like when you see children over and over again that's again that's again that's virt talking how many Israelis were virt talking how many Israelis were virt talking how many Israelis were killed that's not virtue signaling cuz killed that's not virtue signaling cuz killed that's not virtue signaling cuz that's human life I don't care about I that's human life I don't care about I that's human life I don't care about I don't care if 100 or don't care if 100 or don't care if 100 or thousand to1 curious ass the question thousand to1 curious ass the question thousand to1 curious ass the question yes that's not the number that's the yes that's not the number that's the yes that's not the number that's the response and then m m mentions that more response and then m m mentions that more response and then m m mentions that more journalists were killed in Gaza than in journalists were killed in Gaza than in journalists were killed in Gaza than in all of World War II it doesn't get that

all of World War II it doesn't get that all of World War II it doesn't get that doesn't any part of Medics were killed doesn't any part of Medics were killed doesn't any part of Medics were killed that's that's silly journalist says it's that's that's silly journalist says it's that's that's silly journalist says it's virtu but when Israelis get killed virtu but when Israelis get killed virtu but when Israelis get killed that's serious I never said it's serious that's serious I never said it's serious that's serious I never said it's serious on both sides I'm not virt I'm asking a sides I'm not virt I'm asking a substantive question of who do you substantive question of who do you substantive question of who do you assign blame to or do you planed Norm assign blame to or do you planed Norm assign blame to or do you planed Norm finklestein's conspiracies that the finklestein's conspiracies that the finklestein's conspiracies that the ambulances should have known immediately ambulances should have known immediately ambulances should have known immediately who was dead that the numbers were who was dead that the numbers were who was dead that the numbers were changed cuz they were fake or that maybe changed cuz they were fake or that maybe changed cuz they were fake or that maybe 51% of the people were killed by uh by 51% of the people were killed by uh by 51% of the people were killed by uh by Hamas and and Islamic but 49% were Hamas and and Islamic but 49% were Hamas and and Islamic but 49% were killed by I helicopters as me direct killed by I helicopters as me direct killed by I helicopters as me direct question and you got a direct answer I question and you got a direct answer I question and you got a direct answer I didn't I got majority which could didn't I got majority which could didn't I got majority which could be9 a clear majority what percent is a be9 a clear majority what percent is a be9 a clear majority what percent is a clear majority as opposed to they live clear majority as opposed to they live clear majority as opposed to they live clear majority in my view is well over clear majority in my view is well over clear majority in my view is well over 50% please don't ask me to be more 50% please don't ask me to be more 50% please don't ask me to be more precise because I you could say 80 90 95 precise because I you could say 80 90 95 precise because I you could say 80 90 95 if I knew that I would say it I think if I knew that I would say it I think if I knew that I would say it I think it's a reasonable it's a reasonable it's a reasonable it's a reasonable it's a reasonable it's a reasonable you're not the best person to be asking you're not the best person to be asking you're not the best person to be asking that question you know I read when you that question you know I read when you that question you know I read when you wrote op described operation defensive wrote op described operation defensive wrote op described operation defensive shield and you said a few dozen homes shield and you said a few dozen homes shield and you said a few dozen homes were destroyed you're talking about what were destroyed you're talking about what were destroyed you're talking about what happened in J refugee camp and you said happened in J refugee camp and you said happened in J refugee camp and you said no the Arab said 500 you guys said 500 no the Arab said 500 you guys said 500 no the Arab said 500 you guys said 500 Palestinians were killed in and then no Palestinians were killed in and then no Palestinians were killed in and then no but that was the statement of the but that was the statement of the but that was the statement of the pan Authority you said a few dozen and pan Authority you said a few dozen and pan Authority you said a few dozen and there were massacres there a few dozen a there were massacres there a few dozen a there were massacres there a few dozen a few dozen homes well it turned out 140 few dozen homes well it turned out 140 few dozen homes well it turned out 140 building buildings were destroyed 5

building buildings were destroyed 5 building buildings were destroyed 5 5,000 people 5,000 people were left 5,000 people 5,000 people were left 5,000 people 5,000 people were left homeless how many you 5,000 many you homeless how many you 5,000 many you homeless how many you 5,000 many you described it no I'm talking about homes described it no I'm talking about homes described it no I'm talking about homes destroyed so you're not the best person destroyed so you're not the best person destroyed so you're not the best person to be criticizing what Moen says when he to be criticizing what Moen says when he to be criticizing what Moen says when he says clear majority but he can't say says clear majority but he can't say says clear majority but he can't say more you know why he can't say more more you know why he can't say more more you know why he can't say more doesn't I he doesn't know yeah yeah I doesn't I he doesn't know yeah yeah I doesn't I he doesn't know yeah yeah I understand that that's a historic if if understand that that's a historic if if understand that that's a historic if if I was trying to belittle I would give I was trying to belittle I would give I was trying to belittle I would give you a very different answer I would just you a very different answer I would just you a very different answer I would just say I don't know I do know you what the say I don't know I do know you what the say I don't know I do know you what the right phrase there would be the right phrase there would be the right phrase there would be the overwhelming majority were killed by overwhelming majority were killed by overwhelming majority were killed by Arab gunmen and very small number were Arab gunmen and very small number were Arab gunmen and very small number were killed by Israelis by accident or killed by Israelis by accident or killed by Israelis by accident or whatever probably historian that's whatever probably historian that's whatever probably historian that's probably that may be I I can I can state probably that may be I I can I can state probably that may be I I can I can state with confidence a clear majority with confidence a clear majority with confidence a clear majority overwhelming majority you may be correct overwhelming majority you may be correct overwhelming majority you may be correct but I can't state that with certainty I but I can't state that with certainty I but I can't state that with certainty I think there's a very easy way to find think there's a very easy way to find think there's a very easy way to find out is to have a independent forgetting out is to have a independent forgetting out is to have a independent forgetting of course you forget forget that doesn't of course you forget forget that doesn't of course you forget forget that doesn't mean anything the law Independent high mean anything the law Independent high mean anything the law Independent high commission human necessar just repeat commission human necessar just repeat commission human necessar just repeat all barbaric countries Assyrian was the all barbaric countries Assyrian was the all barbaric countries Assyrian was the head of the UN commission for human head of the UN commission for human head of the UN commission for human rights if it wasn't Israeli it would rights if it wasn't Israeli it would rights if it wasn't Israeli it would have been okay he certainly would have have been okay he certainly would have have been okay he certainly would have been more honest than a Oh Yeah from been more honest than a Oh Yeah from been more honest than a Oh Yeah from your perspective well to disagree with your perspective well to disagree with your perspective well to disagree with Stephen I thought this was extremely Stephen I thought this was extremely Stephen I thought this was extremely valuable uh and at times really like the valuable uh and at times really like the valuable uh and at times really like the the the view of History the the the the view of History the the the the view of History the the passion passion passion um I'm really grateful that uh you would

um I'm really grateful that uh you would um I'm really grateful that uh you would spend your really valuable time and just spend your really valuable time and just spend your really valuable time and just one more question since we one more question since we one more question since we have uh two historians here well just have uh two historians here well just have uh two historians here well just briefly uh from a history briefly uh from a history briefly uh from a history perspective what do you hope your legacy perspective what do you hope your legacy perspective what do you hope your legacy as historians Benny and Norm will be of as historians Benny and Norm will be of as historians Benny and Norm will be of the work that you've put out there maybe the work that you've put out there maybe the work that you've put out there maybe Norm you can go first and try to just Norm you can go first and try to just Norm you can go first and try to just say brief say brief say brief I think there's a a value to preserving I think there's a a value to preserving I think there's a a value to preserving the record I'm not optimistic about the record I'm not optimistic about the record I'm not optimistic about where things are going to end up there where things are going to end up there where things are going to end up there was a very nice book written by a woman was a very nice book written by a woman was a very nice book written by a woman named Helen Hunt named Helen Hunt named Helen Hunt Jackson uh at the end of the 19th Jackson uh at the end of the 19th Jackson uh at the end of the 19th century describing what was done to the century describing what was done to the century describing what was done to the Native Americans she called it A Century Native Americans she called it A Century Native Americans she called it A Century of Dishonor and she described in Vivid of Dishonor and she described in Vivid of Dishonor and she described in Vivid uh poignant detail what was done to the uh poignant detail what was done to the uh poignant detail what was done to the Native Americans did it save them Native Americans did it save them Native Americans did it save them no did it help them probably not did it no did it help them probably not did it no did it help them probably not did it preserve their memory yes and I think preserve their memory yes and I think preserve their memory yes and I think there's a value to that you know there there's a value to that you know there there's a value to that you know there was a famous film by eisenstein Sergey was a famous film by eisenstein Sergey was a famous film by eisenstein Sergey eisenstein it was either Battleship with eisenstein it was either Battleship with eisenstein it was either Battleship with hkin or mother I can't remember which hkin or mother I can't remember which hkin or mother I can't remember which one the last scene was the Zar troops one the last scene was the Zar troops one the last scene was the Zar troops mowing down all the Russian people and mowing down all the Russian people and mowing down all the Russian people and he pans the scene not all the Russian he pans the scene not all the Russian he pans the scene not all the Russian people few well he pans the massacre he people few well he pans the massacre he people few well he pans the massacre he pans the massacre but he could have pans the massacre but he could have pans the massacre but he could have killed a lot

killed a lot killed a lot more and the last words of the movie more and the last words of the movie more and the last words of the movie were were were proletarians exclamation point remember proletarians exclamation point remember proletarians exclamation point remember exclamation point and I've seen it as my exclamation point and I've seen it as my exclamation point and I've seen it as my life's work to preserve the memory and life's work to preserve the memory and life's work to preserve the memory and to remember I didn't expect that anyone to remember I didn't expect that anyone to remember I didn't expect that anyone would read my book on Gaza it's very would read my book on Gaza it's very would read my book on Gaza it's very dense it gives me even a a bit of a dense it gives me even a a bit of a dense it gives me even a a bit of a headache to read at least one of the headache to read at least one of the headache to read at least one of the chapters you wrote a book on chapters you wrote a book on chapters you wrote a book on Gaza and uh but I thought that the Gaza and uh but I thought that the Gaza and uh but I thought that the memory deserves to be preserved amen memory deserves to be preserved amen memory deserves to be preserved amen well I would just say very briefly well I would just say very briefly well I would just say very briefly unlike my colleague I think writing the unlike my colleague I think writing the unlike my colleague I think writing the truth about what happened in history in truth about what happened in history in truth about what happened in history in various periods of History if I've done various periods of History if I've done various periods of History if I've done a little bit of that I'm happy thank you a little bit of that I'm happy thank you a little bit of that I'm happy thank you nor thank you Benny thank you Stephen nor thank you Benny thank you Stephen nor thank you Benny thank you Stephen thank you m thank you m thank you m thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with Norman fonstein Benny conversation with Norman fonstein Benny conversation with Norman fonstein Benny Morris Mo Rani and stevenh benell to Morris Mo Rani and stevenh benell to Morris Mo Rani and stevenh benell to support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from let me leave you with some words from let me leave you with some words from Lyndon B Johnson peace is a journey of a Lyndon B Johnson peace is a journey of a Lyndon B Johnson peace is a journey of a thousand miles and it must be taken one thousand miles and it must be taken one thousand miles and it must be taken one step at a step at a step at a time thank you for listening and hope to time thank you for listening and hope to time thank you for listening and hope to see you next