Magnus Carlsen: Greatest Chess Player of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #315

- The following is a conversation with Magnus Carlsen, the number one ranked chess player in the world, and widely considered to be one of, if not the greatest chess player of all time. The camera on Magnus died 20 minutes into the conversation. Most folks still just listen to the audio through a podcast player anyway, but if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, we did our best to still make it interesting by adding relevant image overlays. I mess things up sometimes like in this case, but I'm always working hard to improve. I hope you understand. Thank you for your patience and support along the way. I love you all. This is a "Lex Fridman Podcast," to support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now dear friends, here's Magnus Carlsen. You're considered by many to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest chess players of all time, but you're also one of the best fantasy football, AKA soccer competitors in the world, plus recently picking up poker and competing at a world class level.

So before chess, let's talk football and greatness. You're a Real Madrid fan, so let me ask you the ridiculous big question. Who do you think is the greatest football, AKA soccer player of all time? Can you make the case for Messi? Can you make the case for Christian Ronaldo, Pele, Maridona, does anybody jump to mind? - No, I think it's pretty hard to make a case for anybody else other than Messi for his all around game. And frankly like my Real Madrid fandom sort of predates the Ronaldo era, the second Ronaldo, not the first one. So I always liked Ronaldo, but I always kind of thought that Messi was better. And I went to quite a number of Madrid games and I've always been super helpful to me down there. The only thing is that, like they asked me, they were gonna do an interview and they were gonna ask me who my favorite player was.

And I said somebody else, I think I said Isco at that point. And I was like, okay, take two, now you say Ronald. So for them, it was very important, but it wasn't that huge to me. - [Lex] So Messi over Maridona? - Yeah, but I think it just like with chess, it's hard to compare eras. Obviously the improvements in football have been like in technique and such have been even greater than they have been in chess. But it's always a weird discussion to have. - But just as a fan, what do you think is beautiful about the game? What defines greatness, is it with Messi, one, he's really good at finishing, two, very good at assists, like three, there's just magic, it's just beautiful to see the play. So it's not just about the finishing, there's some, it's like Marindona's hand of God. There's some creativity on the pitch, is that important or is it very important to get the World Cups and the big championships and that kind of stuff?

- I think the World Cup is pretty overrated seeing as it's such a small sample size. So it sort of annoys me always when titles are always appreciated so much, even though that particular title can be a lot of luck or at least some luck. So I do appreciate the statistics a bit, and all the statistics say that Messi is the best finisher of all time, which I think helps a lot. And then there's the intangibles as well. - The flip side of that is the small sample size is what really creates the magic, it's just like the Olympics. You basically train your whole life for this, you live your whole life for this, and it's a rare moment, one mistake and it's all over, for some reason, a lot of people either break under that pressure or rise up under that pressure.

You don't admire the magic of that? - No, I do, I just think that like rising through pressure and breaking under the pressure is often are really oversimplified take on what's happening. - [Lex] We do romanticize the game. - Yeah. - Well, let me ask you another ridiculous question, you're also a fan of basketball. - Yes. - Let me ask the GOAT question. I'm biased because I went to high school in Chicago, Chicago Bulls during the Michael Jordan era. Let me ask the Jordan versus LeBron James question. Let's continue on this thread of greatness, which one do you pick? Or somebody else? Magic Johnson. - So I'll give you a completely different answer. - Uh-oh. - Depending on my mood and depending on who I talk to, I pick one of the two and then I try to argue for that. - It's the quantum mechanical thing. Again, what would, if you were to argue for either one, statistically, I think LeBron James is going to surpass Jordan.

- Yeah, no doubt. - And so again, there's debate between. - Unquantifiable greatness, that's the whole debate. - Yes, well, it's quantifiable versus unquantifiable. What's more important? And you're depending on mood, all over the place. But what do you lean in general with these folks, with soccer, with anything in life, towards the unquantifiable more? - No, definitely towards the quantifiable. - So when you're unsure, lean towards the numbers. But see like it's later generations, there's something, that's what people say about Maridona, is he took a arguably somewhat mediocre team to a world cup. So there's that also uplifting nature of the player, to be able to rise up the whole, it is a team sport. - So are you gonna punish Messi for taking a mediocre Argentine squad to the final in 2014 and punish him because they lost to a great team, very narrowly after they missed, he set up like a great chance for Higuain in the first half, which he fluffed and then, eventually they lost the game.

- Yeah, they do criticize Christiano Ronald, Messi, for being on really strong squads in terms of the club teams and saying, yeah, it's easy when you have like Ronaldinho or whoever on your team. - It would be very interesting, just if the league could make a decision. - Yeah, just random, random allocation. (Lex laughing) And just every single game, just keep relocating or maybe once a season, or every season you get random- - But let's say, every player, let's say they've signed a five year contract for a team, like one of them you're gonna get randomly allocated to, to let's say a bottom half team. - I bet you there's gonna be so much corruption around that. - Obviously, it wouldn't never happen or work. But it's interesting to think about. - So on chess, let's zoom out.

If you break down your approach to chess, when you're at your best, what do you think contributes to that approach? Is it memory recall, specific lines and positions? Is it intuition? How much of it is intuition? How much of it is pure calculation? How much of it is messing with the strategy of the opponent, so the game theory aspect, in terms of what contributes to the highest level of play that you do? - I think the answer differs a little bit now from what it did eight years ago. For instance, like I feel like I've had like two peaks in my career in 2014, well, 2013, 2014, and also in 2019. And in those years, I was very different in terms of my strengths, specifically in 2019, I benefited a lot from opening preparation.

While in 2013, 2014, I mostly tried to avoid my opponent's preparation rather than that being a strength. So I'm mentioning that also because it's something you didn't mention. I think like my intuitive understanding of chess has over those years always been a little bit better than the others, even though it has evolved as well. Certainly there are things that I understand now that I didn't understand back then, but that's not only for me, that's for others as well. I was younger back then. So I played with more energy, which meant that I could play better in long, drawn out games, which was also a necessity for me, 'cause I couldn't beat people in the openings.

But in terms of calculation, that's always been a weird issue for me. Like I've always been really, really bad at solving exercises in chess. Like that's been like a blind spot for me. First of all, I've found it hard to concentrate on them and to look deep enough. - So this is like a puzzle, a position. Mate in-X. - I mean, one thing is made, but find the best move. That's generally the exercise, like find the best move, find the best line. - You just don't connect with it. - Usually like you have to look deep. And then when I get these lines during the game, I very often find the right solution even though it's not still the best part of my game to calculate very, very deeply.

- Wait, it doesn't feel like calculation, you're saying, in terms of- - No, it does sometimes, but for me it's more like I'm at the board trying to find the solution. And I understand like the training at home is like trying a little bit to replicate that, like you give somebody half an hour in a position, like in this instance you might have thought for half an hour if you played a game, but I just cannot do it. One thing I know that I am good at though, is calculating short lines 'cause I calculate them well, I'm good at seeing little details, and I'm also much better than most at evaluating, which I think is something that sets me apart from others. - So evaluating specific position, if I make this move and the position changes in this way, is this a right step in the right direction, like in a big picture way?

- Yeah, like you calculate a few moves ahead and then you evaluate, because a lot of the times you cannot, the branch has become so big that you cannot calculate everything. So you have to- - [Lex] It's like a fog. - Yeah, so you have to make valuations based mostly on knowledge and intuition. And somehow I seem to do that pretty well. - When you say you're good at short line, what's that? What's short? - That's usually like lines of two to four moves each. - Okay, so that's directly applicable to even faster games like blitz chess and so on? - Yeah, blitz is a lot about calculating forced lines. You can see pretty clearly that the players who struggle at blitz or are great at classical are those who rely on deep calculating ability, 'cause it simply don't have time for that in blitz.

You have to calculate quickly and rely a lot on intuition. - Can you try to, I know it's really difficult, can you try to talk through what's actually being visualized in your head? Is there a visual component? - Yeah, no, I just visualize the board. I mean the board is in my head. - Two dimensional? - My interpretation is that it's two dimensional. - Like what color is it brown, tinted? Is it black? Like, what's the theme? Is it a big board, small board? What do the pawns look like? (Lex laughing) Or is it more in the space of concepts? - Yeah, there aren't a lot of colors, it's mostly... - So what is it, "Queen's Gambit," ceiling, whatever? - I'm trying now to imagine it. - What about when you do the branching, when you have multiple boards and so on, how does that look? - But it's only one at a time. - [Lex] One position at a time. - One position at a time.

So then I go back and that's what... When people play or at least that's what I do, when I play blindfold chess against several people, then it's just always one board at a time and the rest are stored away somewhere. - But how do you store them away? So like you went down one branch and you're like, all right, that's I got that. I understand that there's some good there, there's some bad there, now let me go down another branch. Like how do do you store away the information, you just put on a shelf kind of? - I try and store it away. Sometimes I have to sort of repeat it because I forget. And it does happen frequently in games that you're thinking for, especially if you're thinking for long, let's say half an hour or even more than that, that you play a move and then your opponent plays a move. Then you play a move and they play a move again. And you realize, oh, I actually calculated that. I just forgot about it. So that's obviously what happens when you store the information and you cannot retrieve it.

- When you think about a move for 20, 30 minutes, like how do you break that down? Can you describe what... Like what's the algorithm here that takes 30 minutes to run? - 30 Minutes is at least for me, it's usually a waste. 30 minutes usually means that I don't know what to do. And I'm trying- - You're just running into the wall over and over. - Oh yeah, I'm trying to find something that isn't there. I think 10 to 15 minutes thinks and complicated positions can be really, really helpful, then you can spend your time pretty efficiently. Just means that the branches are getting wider, so there's a lot to run through, both in terms of calculation and lots, you have to evaluate as well. And then based on that 10 to 15 minute, think you have a pretty good idea what to do.

I mean, it's very rare that I would think for half an hour and I would have a eureka moment during the game. Like if I haven't seen it in 10 minutes, I'm probably not gonna see it at all. - You're going to different branches. - [Magnus] Yeah. - And like after 15 minutes, it's like- - But it may lead to the middle game, because when you get to the end game, it's usually brute force calculation that makes you spend so much time. So middle game it's a complicated mix of brute force calculation and, like creativity and evaluation. So end game it's easier in that sense. - Well, you're good at every aspect of chess, but you're also your end game is legendary. It baffles experts. So can you linger on that then try to explain what the heck is going on there. Like if you look at game six of the previous world championship, the longest game ever played in chess, it was, I think his queen versus your rookie knight in two pawns.

- Yeah. - There's so many options there. It's such an interesting little dance and it's kind of not obvious that it wouldn't be a draw. So how do you escape it not being a draw and you wouldn't that match? - No, I knew that for most of the time it was a theoretical draw, since chess with seven or less pieces on the board is solved. Like people who watching online, they can just check it, they can check a so-called table base and it just gonna spit out, win for white, win for black or a draw. So, and also I didn't know that position specifically, but I knew that it had to be a draw. So for me it was about staying alert, first of all, trying to look for the best way to put my pieces. But yeah, those end games they're a bit unusual.

They don't happen too often. So what I'm usually good at is I'm using my strengths that I also use in middle games is that, I evaluate well and I calculate short variations quite- - [Lex] Even for the end game, short variations matter? - [Magnus] Yes, it does matter in some simpler end games. But also like there are these theoretical end games with very few pieces, like rookie knights and two pawns versus queens, but a lot of end games are simply defined by the queens being exchanged. And there are a lot of other pieces left. And then it's usually not brute force. It's usually more of understanding and evaluation, and then I can use my strengths very well. - [Lex] Why are you so good at the end game? Isn't there a lot of moves from when the end game starts to when the end game finishes and you have a few pieces and you have to figure out, it's like a sequence of little games that happens, right?

Like little pattern, like how does it being able to evaluate a single position lead you to evaluate a long sequence of position that eventually lead to a check me? - [Magnus] Well, I think if you evaluate well at the start, you know what plans to go for, and then usually the play from there is often pretty simple. Let's say you understand how to arrange your pieces and often also how to arrange your pawns early in the end game, then that makes all the difference. And after that is like what we call technique of very often that it's technique basically just means that, the moves are simple. And these are moves that, you know, a lot of players could make, not only the very strongest ones, these are moves that are kind of understood and known.

- [Lex] So with the evaluation, you're just constantly improving a little bit and that just leads to suffocating the position and then eventually to the win, as long as you're doing the evaluation well, one step at a time. - [Magnus] To some extent also. As I said, like if you evaluate it better and thus accumulated some small advantages, then you can often make your life pretty easy towards the end of the end game. - [Lex] So you said in 2019, sort of the second phase of why you're so damn good, you did a lot of opening preparation. What's the goal for you of the opening game of chess, is it to throw the opponent off from any prepared lines? Is there something you could put into words about why you're so damn good at the openings? - [Magnus] Again, these things have changed a lot over time. Back in Kasparov days, for instance, very often got huge advantages from the opening as whites.

- [Lex] Can you explain why? - [Magnus] There were several reasons for that. First of all, he worked harder. He was more creative in finding ideas. He was able to look places others didn't, also he had a very strong team of people who had specific strengths in openings that he could use. - [Lex] So they would come up with ideas and he would integrate those ideas into- - [Magnus] Yeah, and he would also very often come up with them himself. Also at the start, he had some of the first computer engines to work for him, to finance ideas, to look deeper, to verify ideas. He was better at using them than a lot of others. Now, I feel like the playing field is a lot more level. There are both computer engines, neural networks, and hybrid engines available to practically anybody.

So it's much harder to find ideas now that actually like give you an advantage with the white pieces. I mean, people don't expect to find those ideas anymore. Now it's all about finding ideas that are missed by the engines, either they're missed entirely, or they're missed at low depth. And using them to gain some advantage in the sense that you have more knowledge. It's also good to know that usually these are not complete bluffs, these are like semi bluffs. So that you know even if your opponent makes all the right moves, you can still make a draw. And also at the start of 2019, neural networks had just started to be a thing in chess. And I'm not entirely sure, but there were at least some players even in the top events, who you could see did not use them or did not use them in the right way.

And then you could gain a huge advantage because a lot of positions they were being evaluated differently by the neural networks than traditional chess engines, because they simply think about chess in a very, very different way. So short answer is these days, it's all about surprising your opponent and taking it into position where you have more knowledge. - [Lex] So is there some sense in which it's okay to make suboptimal quote unquote moves to- - [Magnus] No, but you have to, I mean, you have to, because the best moves have been analyzed to depth mostly. - So that's a kind of, when you say semi bluff, that's a kind of sacrifice, you're sacrificing the optimal move, the optimal position so that you can take the opponent. I mean, that's a game theoretical sense. You take the opponent to something they didn't prepare well. - [Magnus] Yeah. But you could also look at it another way, like, if you turn on whatever engine you turn on, like if you try to analyze either from the starting position or the starting position of some popular opening, like if you analyze long enough, it's always gonna end up in a draw.

So in that sense, you may not be going for like the objective, the tries that are objectively the most difficult to draw against. But you are trying to look at the less obvious pass. - [Lex] How much do you use engines? Do you use Leela, Stockfish in your preparations? - [Magnus] My team does. Personally, I try not to use them too much on my own, because I know that when I play, you can obviously cannot have help from engines. I feel like often having imperfect or knowledge about a position or some engine knowledge can be a lot worse than having no knowledge. So I try to look at engines as little as possible. - [Lex] So your team uses them for research, for generation of ideas. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] But you are relying primarily in your human resources.

- [Magnus] Yeah, for sure. - [Lex] You can evaluate, well, you don't lean- - [Magnus] Yeah, no, I can evaluate as a human. I can know what they find unpleasant and so on. And it's very often the case, for me to some extent, but a lot for others that you arrive in a position and your opponent plays a move that you didn't expect. And, you know, if you didn't expect it, you know, that it's probably not a great move since it hasn't been expected by the engine. But if it's not obvious why it's not a good move, it's usually very, very hard to figure it out. And so then, looking at the engines doesn't necessarily help because at that point, like you're facing a human, you have to sort of think as a human. - [Lex] I was chatting with the Demis Hassabis, CEO of Deep Mind a couple days ago. And you asked me to ask you about what you first felt when you saw the play of Alphazero, like interesting ideas, any creativity.

Did you feel fear that the machine is taking over? Were you inspired, and what was going on in your mind at heart? - [Magnus] Funny thing about Demis is, he doesn't play a chess at all, like an AI. He plays in a very, very human way. No, I was hugely inspired when I saw the games at first. And in terms of man versus machine, I mean, that battle was kind of lost for humans even before I entered top level chess. So that's never been an issue for me. I never liked playing against computers much anyway, so. So that's completely fine. But it was amazing to see how they quote unquote thought about chess and in such a different way. And in a way that you could mistake for creativity. - [Lex] Mistake for creativity, strong words.

Is it wild to you, how many sacrifices it's willing to make that like sacrifice pieces and then wait for prolonged periods of time before doing anything with that? Is that weird to you that that's part of chess? - [Magnus] No, it's one of the things that's hardest to replicate as a human as well, or at least for my playing style. That usually when I sacrifice, I feel like I'm, you know, I don't do it unless I feel like I'm getting something like tangible in return, and- - [Lex] Like a few moves down the line. - [Magnus] Few moves down the line you can see that you can either retrieve the material or you can put your opponents king under pressure, or have some very concrete positional advantage that sort of compensates for it. For instance, in chess, so bishops and knights are fairly equivalent. We both give them three points, but bishops are a little bit better. And especially a Bishop pair is a lot better than a bishop and a knight.

Or especially two knights. Depends on the position, but like on average they are. So like sacrificing a pawn in order to get a bishop pair. That's one of the most common sacrifices in general. - [Lex] Oh, you're okay making that sacrifice. - [Magnus] Yeah, I mean, it depends on the situation, but generally that's fine. And there are a lot of openings that are based on that, that you sacrifice upon for the bishop pair. And then eventually it's some sort of positional equality, so that's fine. But the way Alphazero would sacrifice a knight or sometimes two pawns, three pawns and you could see that it's looking for some sort of positional domination, but it's hard to understand. And it was really fascinating to see. Yeah, in 2019, I was sacrificing a lot of pawns especially, and it was a great joy, unfortunately it's not so easy to continue to do that.

People have found more solid opening lines since that don't allow me to do that as often, I'm still trying both to get those positions and still trying to learn the art of sacrificing pieces. - [Lex] So Demis also made a comment that was interesting to my new chess brain, which is one of the reasons that chess is fun is because of the quote creative tension between the bishop and the knight. So you're talking about this interesting difference between the two pieces that there's some kinda, how would you convert that? I mean, that's like a poetic statement about chess. I think he said that wise chessman play for such a long time. Why is it so fun to play at every level that if you can reduce it to one thing, is it's the bishop and the night, some kind of weird dynamics that they create in chess. Is there any truth to that? - [Magnus] It sounds very good. I haven't tried a lot of other games, but I tried to play a little bit of Shogi.

And for my new Shogi brain, comparing it to chess, what annoyed me about that game is how much the pieces suck. Basically you have one rook and you have one bishop that move like in chess. - [Lex] Yeah. - [Magnus] And the rest of the pieces are really not very powerful. So I think that's one of the attractions of chess, like how powerful, especially the queen is, which- - [Lex] Interesting. - [Magnus] I kind of think makes it makes a lot of fun. - [Lex] You think power is more fun than like variety? - [Magnus] No, there is variety in chess as well though. - [Lex] But not much more so than like, like- - [Magnus] No, no, no. - [Lex] I mean they all move in different ways. They're all like weird. There's just all these weird patterns and positions that can emerge. The difference in the pieces create all kinds of interesting dynamics, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. - [Magnus] Yeah. And I guess it is quite fascinating that all those years ago they created the knight and the bishop without probably realizing that they would be almost equally strong with such different qualities.

- [Lex] Yeah, it's crazy that this, like when you design computer games, it is like an art form, it's science and an art to balance it. You talk about StarCraft and all those games, like so that you can have competitive play at the highest level with all those different units and in a case of chess, it's different pieces. And they somehow designed a game that was super competitive, but there's probably some kind of natural selection that the chess just wouldn't last if it was designed poorly. - [Magnus] Yeah, and I think the rules have changed over time a little bit. I mean, speaking of games and all that, I'm also interested to play other other games like Chess960 or Fischer Random as they call it, like that you have 960 maps instead of one. - [Lex] Yeah, so for people who don't know, Fischer Random chess, Chess960. - [Magnus] Yeah. That basically just means that the pawns are in the same way and the major pieces are distributed randomly on the last rank.

Only that there have to be obviously bishops of opposite color, and the king has to be in between the rooks so that you can castle both ways. - [Lex] Oh, you can still castle in- - You can castle, but it makes it interesting. It's still castles in the same way. So let's say the king is like- - Yeah, well, what happens in that case? - Yeah, let's say the king is in the corner. So to castle this side, you have to clear a whole lot of pieces. - Well, what would castling look like though? - No, the king would go here and the rook would go there. - Oh, okay. - And that's happened in my games as well. Like I forgot about castling and I've been like attacking a king over here. And then all of a sudden it escapes to the other side. I think Fischer chess is good that it, the maps will generally be worse than regular chess. Like I think the starting position is as close to ideal for creating a competitive game as possible, but they will still be like interesting and diverse enough that you can play very, very interesting games.

- [Lex] So when you say maps, is 960 different options. And like what fraction of that creates interesting games at the highest level? This is something that a lot of people are curious about because when you challenge a great chess player like yourself to look at a random starting position, that feels like it pushes you to play pure chess versus memorizing live. - [Magnus] Oh yeah, for sure. For sure. But that's the whole idea. That's what you want. - [Lex] How hard is it to play? I mean, can you talk about what it feels like to you to play with a random starting position? Is there some like intuition you've been building up. - [Magnus] It's very, very different, and I mean understandably engines have an even greater advantage in 960 than they have in classical chess. Now it's super interesting. And that's why I also, I really wish that we played more classical chess, like long games, four to seven hours.

And in Fischer Random chess, Chess960 because then you really need that time. Even on the first moves. What usually happens is that you get 15 minutes before the game, you're getting told the position 15 minutes before the game. And then you can think about it li a little bit, even check the computer, but that's all the time you have, but then you really need to figure it out. And like some of the positions obviously are a lot more interesting than the others. In some of them, it appears that like, if you don't play symmetrically at the start, then you're probably gonna be in a pretty bad position. - [Lex] What do you mean, with the pawns or- - [Magnus] With the pawns, yeah. So that's the thing about chess though. So let's say why it's opens with e4, which has always been the most played move. There are many ways to meet that, but the most solid ways of playing has always been the symmetrical response.

With e5, and then there's the Ruy Lopez, there's the Petrov opening and so on. And if you just band symmetry on the first move in chess, you would get more interesting games. - [Lex] Oh, interesting. - [Magnus] Or you you'd get more decisive games. So that's the good thing about chess is that we've played it so long that we've actually devised non-symmetrical openings that are also fairly equal. And- - [Lex] But symmetry is a good default. - [Magnus] But yeah, symmetry is a good default. And it's a problem that by playing symmetrical, armed with good preparation in regular chess, it's just a little bit too easy to, it's a little bit too drawish. And I guess if you analyzed a lot in Chess960 then a lot of the position would end up being pretty drawish as well.

- [Lex] 'Cause the random starting point is so shitty, you're forced to- - [Magnus] You're actually forced to play symmetrically. Like you cannot actually try and play in a more sort of interesting manner. - [Lex] Is there any other kind of variations that are interesting to you? - [Magnus] Oh yeah, there are several. So no castling chess has been promoted by former world champion Vladimir Kramnik, there have been a few tournaments with that not any that I've participated in though, I kinda like it. Also, my coach uses like non castling engines, quite a bit to analyze regular positions to just to get a different perspective. - [Lex] So castling is like a defensive thing. So if you remove castling, it forces you to be more offensive, is that why? - [Magnus] Yeah, for sure. - [Lex] It seems like a kind difference, I think- - [Magnus] No castling probably forces you to be a little bit more defensive at the start, or I would guess so.

Because you cannot suddenly escape with the kings. It's gonna make the game a bit slower at the start, but I feel like eventually it's gonna make more games more well less drawish for sure. Then you have some weirder variants, like where the pawns can move both diagonally and forward. And also you have self capture chess, which is quite interesting. So that the pawns can, or excuse- - [Lex] You could commit suicide or? - [Magnus] Yeah, people can- - [Lex] Why would that be a use a good move? - No, sometimes one of your pieces occupy a square. I mean, let me just set up a position. Let's put it like this. For instance, like here, I mean, there are a lot of ways to check mate for white, like this, for instance, or there are several ways. But like this would be check mate.

(Lex laughing) - Oh, cool. For people who are just listening. Yeah, basically you're bring in a knight close to the king and the queen and so on. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] And you replace the knight with a queen. Yeah. That's interesting. So you have like a front of pieces and then you just replace them with the second piece. - [Magnus] Yeah, I mean that could be interesting. I think also, maybe sometimes it's just clearance, basically it adds an extra element of clearance. So I think there are many different variants. I don't think any of them are better than the one that has been played for at least a thousand years. But it's certainly interesting to see. - [Lex] So one of your goals is to reach the FIDE Elo chess rating of 2,900. Maybe you can comment on how this rating calculated and what does it take to get there? Is it possible for a human being to get there?

- [Magnus] Basically you play with a factor of 10, which means that if I were to play against an opponent, who's rated the same as me, I would be expected to score 50% obviously. And that means that I would win five points with a win, lose five points with a draw and then equal if I draw. If your opponent is 200 points, lower rated, you're expected to score 75% and so on. - [Lex] And you establish that rating by playing a lot of people. And then it slowly converges towards an estimate of how likely you are to win or lose against different. - [Magnus] Yeah. And my rating is obviously carried through thousands of games. Right now my rating is 2861, which is decent. Like I think that pretty much corresponds to the level I have at the moment, which means in order to reach 2,900, I would have to either get better at chess, which I think is fairly hard to do at least considerably better.

So what I would need to do is try and optimize even more in terms of- - [Lex] The matchups, the games- - [Magnus] Preparations, everything. But not necessarily like selecting tournaments and so on, but like just optimizing in terms of preparation, like making sure I never have any bad days. - [Lex] So you basically can't lose. - [Magnus] Yeah, I basically can't fuck up ever, if I wanna reach that goal. And so I think reaching 2,900 is pretty unlikely. The reason I've set the goal is to have something to play for it. To have a motivation, to actually try and be at my best when I play. Because otherwise I'm playing to some extent, mostly for fun these days in that I love to play. I love to try and win, but I don't have a lot to prove or anything, but that gives me at least the motivation to try and be at my best all the time, which I think is something to aim for.

So at the moment, I'm quite enjoying that process of trying to optimize. - [Lex] What would you say motivates you in this now and in the years leading up to now the love of winning or the fear of losing? - [Magnus] So for the world championship, it's been fear of losing for sure. Other tournaments, love of winning is a great, great factor. And that's why I also get more joy from winning most tournaments than I do for winning the world championship, because then it's mostly been a relief. I also think I enjoy winning more now than I did before, because I feel like I'm a little bit more relaxed now. And I also know that it's not gonna last forever. So every little win I appreciate a lot more now. And in terms of fear of losing, like that's a huge reason why I'm not gonna play the world championship because, it really didn't gimme me a lot of joy.

It really was all about avoiding losing. - [Lex] Why is it that the world championship really makes you feel this way? The anxiety. And when you say losing, do you mean not just a match, but like every single position? Like, it's just the fear of a blunder. - [Magnus] No, I mean, the blunder is okay. Like when I sit down at the board, then it's mostly been fine, because then I'm focused on- - [Lex] Got it. - [Magnus] Then I'm focused on the game. And then I know that I can play the game. It's a time like in between, like knowing that, you know, I feel like losing is not an option because it's the world championship. And because in a world championship, there are two players, there's a winner and a loser. If I don't win a random tournament that I play, then, it depends on a tournament, I might be disappointed for sure. Might even be pretty pissed. But ultimately, you know, you go onto the next one. With the world championship you don't go onto the next one.

It's years. And it also has been like, it's been a core part of my identity for a while now that I am world champion. And so there's not an option of losing that. - [Lex] Yeah, you're gonna have to at least for a couple of years carry the weight of having lost. You're the former world champion now, if you lose versus the current world champion, there are certain sports that create that anxiety and others that don't, for example, I think UFC like mixed martial arts are a little better with losing. It's understood, like everybody loses. But there's- - [Magnus] Not everybody though. - [Lex] Not everybody, not everybody, not everybody. (Lex laughing) Yes. Khabib entered the chat. But in boxing there is like that extra pressure of like maintaining the championship. I mean, maybe you could say the same thing about the UFC as well.

So for you personally, for a person who loves chess, the first time you won the world championship, that was the thing that was fun. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] And then everything after is like stressful. - [Magnus] Yeah. Essentially. There was certainly stress involved the first time as well, but it was nothing compared to the others. So the only world championship after that I really enjoyed was the one in 2018 against the American Fabian Caruana. And what that made that different is that, I'd been kind of slumping for a bit and he'd been on the rise. So our ratings were very, very similar. They were so close that if at any point during the match, I'd lost the game, he would've been ranked as number one in world. Like our ratings were so close that for each draw, they didn't move. - [Lex] And the game itself was close.

- [Magnus] Yeah, the game themselves were very close. I had a winning position in the first game that I couldn't really get anywhere for a lot of games. Then he had a couple of games where he could potentially have won. Then in the last game, I was a little bit better. And eventually they were all drawn. But I felt like all the way that this is an interesting match against an opponent who is at this position, at this point equal to me. And so losing that would not have been the disaster because in all the other matches, I would know that I've lost against somebody who I know I'm much better than, and that would be a lot harder for me to take. - [Lex] Well, that's fascinating and beautiful that the stress isn't from losing, because you have fun, you enjoy playing against somebody who's as good as you, maybe better than you.

That's exciting to you. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] It's losing at this high stakes thing that only happens rarely to a person who's not as good as you. - [Magnus] Yeah, and that's why it also been incredibly frustrating in other matches. Like when we play draw after draw, and I know that I'm better. I can sense during the game that I understand it better than them, but I cannot get over the hump. - [Lex] So you are the best chess player in the world and you not playing the world championship really makes the world championship not seem important, or, I mean, there's an argument to be made for that. Is there anything you would like to see for change about the world championship that will make it more fun for you and better for the game of chess period for everybody involved? - [Magnus] So I think 12 games or now 14 games, that there is for the world championship is a fairly low sample size.

If you want to determine who the best player is, or at least the best player in that particular matchup, you need more games. And I think to some extent, if you're gonna have a world champion and call 'em the best players, you gotta make sure that the format increases the chance of finding the best players. So I think having more games, and if you're gonna have a lot more games that you need to, then you need to decrease the time control a bit. Which in turn, I think is also a good thing because in very long time controls with deep preparation, you can sort of mask a lot of your deficiencies as a chess player because you have a lot of time to think and to defend. And also, yeah, you have deep preparation. So I think those would be for me to play, those would be the main things, more games and less time.

- [Lex] So you wanna see more games and rules that emphasize pure chess. - [Magnus] Yeah, but already less time emphasizes pure chess because defensive techniques are much harder to execute with little time. - [Lex] What do you think, is there a sweet spot in terms of, are we talking about blitz? How many minutes- - [Magnus] I think blitz is a bit too fast. To their credit this was suggested by feeds as well, for a start to have two games per day. And let's say you have 45 minutes a game, plus 15 or 30 seconds per move. That means that each sessions will probably be about, or a little less than two hours. - [Lex] Yeah. - [Magnus] That would be a start. Also what we're playing in the tournament that I'm playing here in Miami, which is four games a day, with 15 minutes plus 10 seconds per move. Those would be more interesting than the one there is now.

And I understand that there are a lot of traditions. People don't wanna change the world championship. That's all fine. I just think that the world championship should do a better job of trying to reflect who's the best overall chess player. - [Lex] So would you say like, if it's faster games, you'd probably be able to get a sample size of like over 20 games, 20, 30, 40. Do you think there's a number that's good over a long period of time? - [Magnus] Well, I would prefer as many as possible, - [Lex] Like a hundred? - [Magnus] Yeah, but let's say you play 12 days, two games a day, you know, that's 24. Yeah, I feel like that's already quite a bit better. You play like one black game, one white game each day. - [Lex] Endurance wise, that's okay? - [Magnus] Yeah. I think that's fine. Like you will have free days as well. So I don't think that will be a problem. And also you have to prepare two sets of openings for each day, which makes it more difficult for the teams preparing.

Which I think is also good. - [Lex] Let me ask you a fun question. If Hikaru Nakamura was one of the two people, I guess I apologize for- - [Magnus] Yeah. He could have finished second. So he lost the last round of the Candidates. - [Lex] Yeah, and maybe you can explain to me internet speak Copium is something you tweeted. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] But if he got second, would you just, despite him still still play the world championship, that's internet question, and when the internet asks, I must abide. - [Magnus] Yeah. Sure, thank you internet. So after the last match, I did an interview right after where I'd talked about the fact that I was unlikely to play the next one. I'd spoken privately to both family, friends, and of course also my chess team that this was likely going to be the last match.

What happened was that, right before the world championship match, there was this young player Alireza Firouzja. He had a dramatic rise. He rose to second in the world rankings. He was 18 then, he's 19 now. He qualified for the Candidates. And it felt like there was like at least a half realistic possibility that he could be the challenger for the next world championship. And that sort of lit a fire under me. - [Lex] So you liked that idea? - [Magnus] Yeah, I like that a lot. I love the idea of playing him in the next world championship. And originally I was sure that I wanted to announce right after the tournament, the match that this was it, I'm done, I'm not playing the next one. But this lit a fire under me. So that made me think, you know, this actually motivates me, and I just wanted to get it out there for several reasons, to create more hype about the Candidates, to like sort of motivate myself a little bit, maybe motivate him.

Also obviously I wanted to give people and people a heads up for the Candidates that you might be playing more than first place. Like normally the Candidates is first place or best. It's like the world championship. - [Lex] Yeah. - [Magnus] So Nakamura was one of many people who just didn't believe me. Which is fair. 'Cause I've talked before about not necessarily wanting to defend again. But I never like talked as concretely or was as serious as this time. So he simply didn't believe me. And he was very vocal about that. And he said nobody believed me. None other players, which may or may have not have been true. And then yeah, he lost the last game and he didn't qualify. But to answer the question, no, I already, at that point decided that I wouldn't wouldn't play. I would've liked it less if he had not lost the last round.

- [Lex] But the decision was made. - [Magnus] but the decision was already made. - [Lex] Does it break your heart a little bit, that you are walking away from it, in all the ways that you mentioned that it's just not fun. There's a bunch of ways that doesn't seem to bring out the best kind of chess. It doesn't bring out the best out of you and the particular opponents involved. Does it just break your heart a little bit? Like you're walking away from something or maybe the entire chess community is walking away from a kind of a historic event that was so important in the 20th century, at least. - [Magnus] So I won their championship in 2013. I said no to the Candidates in 2011. I didn't particularly like the format. I was just not in a mood. I didn't want the pressure that was connected with the world championship. And I was perfectly content at the time to play the tournaments that I did play.

Also to be ranked number one in the world. I was comfortable with the fact that I knew that I was the best, and I didn't need a title to show others. And what happened later is I suddenly decided to play in 2013, they changed the format. I liked it better. I just decided, you know, it could be interesting. Let's try and get this. There really wasn't more than more than that to it. It wasn't like fulfilling life long dream or anything, I just thought, you know, let's play. - [Lex] So it's just a cool tournament. A good challenge. - [Magnus] Yeah, it's a cool tournament, is a good challenge. You know, why not? It's something that's could be a motivation. It motivated me to get in the best shape of my life that had been till then. So it was a good thing. And 2013 match brought me a lot of joy as well.

So I'm very, very happy that I did that. But I never had any thoughts that I'm gonna like keep the title for a long time. Immediately after the match in 2013, I mean also before the match, I'd spoken against the fact that champion is seeded into the final, which I thought was unfair. After the match, I made a proposal that we have a different system where the champion doesn't have these privileges and people's reaction, both players and chess community was generally like, okay, we're good. We don't want that. You keep your privilege. And I was like, okay, whatever. - [Lex] So you wanna fight for it every time? - [Magnus] Yeah. I want that. - [Lex] Have to ask, just in case you have an opinion, if you can, maybe from a fantasy chess perspective, analyze Ding versus Nepo, who wins? The two people that would play, if you're not playing.

- [Magnus] Generally, I would consider that Ding has slightly better overall chess strength. - [Lex] What are the strength and weaknesses of each, if you can kinda summarize it? - [Magnus] So Nepo, he is even better at calculating short lines than I am, but he can sometimes lack a little bit of depth. Like in short lines is an absolute calculation monster. He's extremely quick, but he can sometimes lack a bit of depth. Also recently he's improved his openings quite a bit. So now he has a lot of good ideas and he's very, very solid. Ding is not quite as well prepared, but he has an excellent understanding of dynamics and imbalances in chess. I would say. - [Lex] What do you mean by imbalances?

- [Magnus] Imbalances like bishops against knights, and material imbalances? - [Lex] You can take advantage of those. - [Magnus] Yes, I would say he's very, very good at that, and understanding the dynamic factors as we call them like material versus time, especially. - [Lex] I think Nepal got the better of him in the Candidates. So what's your sense why ding has an edge in the championship? - [Magnus] I feel like individual past results hasn't necessarily been great indicator of world championship results. I feel like overall stress strength is more important. I mean, to be fair, I only think like Ding has a very small edge, like difference is not big at all. But our individual head to head record was probably the main reason that a lot of people thought Nepo had a good chance against me as well. It was like four to one in his favor before the match. But that was just another example of why that may not necessarily mean anything.

Also in our case, it was a very, very low sample size. I think about the size of the match in total 14 games. And that generally doesn't mean much. - [Lex] How close were those games would you say in your mind for the previous championship? So that game six where it was a turning point where you won, was there any doubt in your mind that, you know, like if you do a much larger sample size that you'll get the better of Nepo? - [Magnus] No, no, larger sample size is always good for me. So world championship is a great parallel to football because it's a low scoring game. And if the better player or the better team scores, they win most of the time. - [Lex] Oh, that's generally for championships or in general? - [Magnus] Yeah, for championships. Like they generally win because the other slightly weaker team they're good enough to defend, to make it very, very difficult for the others.

But when they actually have to create the chances, then they have no chance. And then it very often ends with a blowout as it did in our match. If I hadn't won game six, it probably would've been very, very close. He might have edged it. There's obviously bigger chance that I would've edged it, but this is just what happens a lot in chess, but also in football that matches are close. And then they- - [Lex] Somebody scores. - [Magnus] Somebody scores and then things change. And this gives people the illusion that the matchup was very close. - [Lex] Yeah. - [Magnus] Which while actually it just means that the nature of the game makes the matches close very often, but it's always much more likely that one of the teams is gonna, or one of the players is gonna break away than the others. And in other matches as well, even though a lot of people before the match in 2016 against Karjakin.

There were people who thought before the match that I was massively overrated as a favorite. And that essentially the match was pretty close, like whatever 60, 40, or some people even say like 55, 45. And what I felt was that to match went very, very wrong for me. And I still won. And some people saw that as an indication that the pre-match probabilities were probably a bit closer than people thought, well, I would look at it in the way that everything went wrong. And I still won which politely means that I was pretty big favor to begin with. - [Lex] I do have a question too about that match, but first, so Sergey Karjakin was originally a qualifier for the candidate tournament, but was disqualified for breaching the FIDE Code of Ethics after publicly expressing approval for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. When you look at the Cold War and some of the US versus Russian games of the past, does some of this geopolitics politics ever creep its way into the game?

Do you feel the pressure, the immensity of that, as it does sometimes for the Olympics, you know, these big nations playing each other, competing against each other, almost like fighting out in a friendly way, the battles, the tensions that they have, in the space of geopolitics? - [Magnus] Yeah. I think it still does. So the president of the World Chess Federation, who was just reelected is a Russian, I like him personally for sure, but he is quite connected to the Kremlin. And it's quite clear that the Kremlin considers it at least a semi-important goal to bring the chess crown home to Russia. So it's still definitely a factor. And I mean, I can answer for in the Karjakin case, like, I don't have a strong opinion on whether he should have been banned or not. Obviously I don't agree with anything that he says. But in principle, I think that you should ban either no Russians or all Russians.

I'm generally not particularly against either, but I don't love banning wrong opinions, even if they are as reprehensible as his have been. - [Lex] Yeah. There's something about the world chess championships or the Olympics where it feels like, banning is counterproductive to the alleviating some of the conflicts. - [Magnus] We don't know, this is the thing though. - [Lex] Yeah. - [Magnus] We really don't know about the long term conflicts. And a lot of people try to do the right thing in this sense, which I don't really blame at all. It's just that we don't know. And I guess sometimes there are other ways you wanna try and try and help as well. - [Lex] See like within the competition, within some of those battles of US versus Russia or so on of the past, there's also between the individuals, maybe you'll disagree with this, but from a spectator perspective, there's still a comradery.

Like at the end of the day, there's a thing that unites you, which is this like appreciation of the fight over the chessboard. Even if you hate each other in a moment. - [Magnus] Yeah, for sure. I think for every match that's been, you would briefly discuss the game with your opponent after the game, no matter how much you hate each other. And I think that's lovely. And Kasparov, he was quoted, like one somebody in his team asked him, like, why are you talking to Karpov after the game? Like, you hate that guy. And he's like, yeah, sure. But he's the only one who understands me. - [Lex] Yeah, the only one who understands. - [Magnus] So I think that's really lovely. And I would love to see that in other areas as well, that you can, regardless of what happens, you can have a good chat about the game. You can just talk about the ideas is with people who understand what you understand.

- [Lex] So if you're not playing the world championships, there's a lot of people who are saying that perhaps the world championships don't matter anymore. Do you think there's some truth to that? - [Magnus] I said that back a long time ago as well. That for me, I don't know if it never happened, so I don't know what would've happened, but I was thinking like the moment that I realized that I'm not the best player in the world, like, I felt like morally, I have to renounce the world's championship title, you know? Because it doesn't mean anything. As long as you're not the best player. - [Lex] So the ratings really tell a clear story. - [Magnus] I think so at least just at least over time, like I'm a lot more proud of my streak of being rated number one in the world, which is now since I think the summer of 2011, I'm a lot more proud of that than the world championships. - [Lex] How much anxiety or even fear do you have before making a difficult decision on the chess board?

So when it's a high stakes game, how nervous do you get? How much anxiety do you have in all that calculations? You're sitting there for 10, 15 minutes. 'Cause you're in a fog, there's always a possibility of a blunder, of a mistake. Are you anxious about it? Are you afraid of it? - [Magnus] Really depends. I have been at times. I think the most nervous I've ever been was game 10 of the world championship is in 2018. That was just a thrilling game. I was black. I basically abandoned the queen side at some point to attack him on the king side. And I knew that my attack, if it doesn't work I'm gonna lose. But I had so much adrenaline. So that was fine. I thought I was gonna win. Then at some point I realized that it's not so clear. And then my time was ticking and I was just getting so nervous. I still remember what happened.

Like we played this time, trouble face, where he had fair little time, but I had even less. And I kind of remember much of it, just that when it was over, I was just so relieved, because then it was clear that position was probably gonna figure out in a draw. Otherwise I'm often nervous before games, but when I get there, it's all business. And especially when I'm playing well, I'm never afraid of losing when I play, because I trust my instincts, I trust my skills. - [Lex] How much psychological intimidation is there from you to the other person, from the other person to you? - [Magnus] I think people would play a lot better if they played against an anonymous me, I would love to- - [Lex] Or people are scared of you in general. - [Magnus] I would love to have a tournament online where let's say you play 10 of the best players in the world and for each round, you don't know who you're playing.

- [Lex] That's an interesting question. You know, like there's these like videos where people eat McDonald's or Burger King or diet Coke versus diet Pepsi. Would people be able to tell they're playing you like from the style of play, do you think, or from the strength of play? - [Magnus] If there was a decent sample size, sure. - [Lex] And what about you? Would you be able to tell others. - [Magnus] In just one game, very unlikely. - [Lex] What sample size would you need to tell accurately? I feel like it's a science. - [Magnus] Yeah, I think 20 games would help a lot. - [Lex] Per person? - [Magnus] Yeah. But I know that they've already developed AI bots that are pretty good at recognizing somebody's style. - [Lex] Okay. - [Magnus] Which is quite fascinating. - [Lex] And it'd be fascinating if those bots were able to summarize the style somehow, maybe great attacking chess, like some of the same characteristics you've been describing, like great at short, line calculations, all that kind of stuff.

- [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] Or just talk- - [Magnus] I mean really, no, but really all the best chess players, there are basically just two camps. People who are good at longer lines or shorter lines. It's the hare on the tortoise basically. And sometimes, you know, I feel like I'm the closest, you can get to a hybrid of those. - [Lex] 'Cause you're good in every position. So the middle game and the end game. - [Magnus] Yeah. And I can think to some extent, both rapidly and deeply, which a lot of people they can't do both. But I mean to answer your question from before, I think, yeah. I sometimes can get a little bit intimidated by my opponent, but it's mostly, if there's something unknown. It's mostly if it's something that I don't understand fully. And I do think, especially when I'm playing well, they just play more timidly against me than they do against each other, sometimes without even realizing it.

And I certainly use that to my advantage. If I sense that my opponent is apprehensive. If I sense that they're not gonna necessarily take all their chances, it just means that I can take more risk. And I always try and find that balance. - [Lex] To shake 'em up a little bit. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] What's been the toughest loss of your career that you remember? Would that be the world championship match? - [Magnus] Oh yeah. Game eight, in 2016. - [Lex] And who was it against? - [Magnus] Against Karjakin in New York? - [Lex] Can you take it through the story of that game? Where were you before that game, in terms of game one through seven? - [Magnus] Yeah, so game one and two, not much happened. Game three and four, I was winning in both of them. And normally I should definitely converted both. I couldn't, partly due to good defense on his part, but mostly because I messed up.

And then after that games, five, six, and seven, not much happened. I was getting impatient that at that point, so for game eight, I was probably ready to take a little bit more risks than I had before, which I guess was insane because I knew that he couldn't beat me unless I beat myself. Like he wasn't strong enough to outplay me. - [Lex] And that was leading to impatience somehow and impatience- - [Magnus] No, because I knew that I was better. I knew that I was better. I knew that I just needed to win one game and then the matches over. - [Lex] Yeah. - [Magnus] That's what happened in 2021 as well. Like when I won the first game against Nepo, knew that the match was over, unless I like fuck up royally, then he's not gonna be able to beat me. So what happened was that I played a kind of, an innocuous opening as white, just trying to get a game, trying to game him out of book as soon as possible.

Then- - [Lex] Okay, can you elaborate innocuous? Get him out of the book. - [Magnus] No, basically I set up pretty defensively as wide. I wasn't really crossing into his half at the start at all. I played more like a system, more than like a concrete openings. It was like, I'm gonna set up my pieces this way. You can set 'em up, however you want. And then later where sort of the armies are gonna meet. I'm not gonna try and bother you at the start. - [Lex] And that means you can have with as many pieces as possible kind of pure chess in the middle game, without any of the lines, the extended lines in the opening. - [Magnus] Exactly. And so there was at some point, a couple of exchanges, then some maneuvering, little bit better, then he was sort of equalizing. And then I started to take too many risks. And I was still sort of fine. But then at some point I realized that I'd gone a bit too far and I had to be really careful.

Then I just froze. I just completely froze. - [Lex] Mentally, like what? - [Magnus] Yeah, mentally. - [Lex] What happened, do you came- - [Magnus] I realized that, I mean, all the thoughts of, I might lose this, what have I done? Why did I take so many risks? I knew that I could have drawn at any moment. Just be patient. Don't give him these opportunities. - [Lex] What triggered that like face transition in your mind? The one thing or many risks- - [Magnus] It was just a position on the board. Like there was one particular move he played that I missed. And then like, then I realized that this could potentially not go my way. So then I made another couple of mistakes and to his credit, like once he realized he had the chance, he knew that this was his one chance he had to take it. And so he did and yeah, that's the worst I've ever felt after a chess game.

I realized that I'm probably gonna lose my title against somebody who's not even close to my level and I've done it because of my own stupidity, most of all. And that was really, really at the time, like I was all in my own head, that was hard to deal with. And I felt like I didn't really recover too much for the next game. So what I did there was a free day after the eighth game. So I did something that I never did at any other world championship. Like after game eight, I got drunk with my team, and- - [Lex] That not a standard procedure? - [Magnus] No, that's the only time that's happening in the world championship during the match. So, yeah, I just tried to forget, but still before game nine, game nine, I was a little bit more relaxed, but I was still a bit nervous.

Then game nine, I was almost lost as well. Then only game 10, I wasn't in a great mood. I was really, really tense. The opening was good. I had some advantage. I was getting optimistic. Then I made one mistake. He could have forced to draw. And then all the negativity came back. Like I was thinking during game, like how I'm gonna play for a win with black in the next game? Like what am I doing? And then, you know, eventually it ended well he didn't find the right line. I ground him down. Actually, I played at some point pretty well in the end game. And after that game, like there was such a weight lifted. No, after that, there was like no thought of losing the match whatsoever. I knew that, okay, I'd basically gotten away with, not with murder, but gotten away with something.

- [Lex] What can you say about the after game eight? Where are the places you've gone in your mind? Do you go to some dark places, we're talking about like depression? Do you think about quitting at that point? - [Magnus] No, I mean, I think about quitting every time I lose the classical game. Or at least I used to. Like, especially if it's in a stupid way, I'm thinking like, okay, if I'm gonna gonna play like this, if I'm gonna do things that I know are wrong, then you know, I might as well quit. No that's happened a bunch of bunch of times. And I've definitely gotten a bit more carefree about losing these days, which it's not necessarily a good thing. Like my hatred of losing led to me not losing a lot. And it also lit to fire under me that I think my performance after losses in classical chess over the last 10 years is like over 2,900. Like I really play well after a loss, even though it's really, really unpleasant.

So apparently like, I don't think the way that I dealt with them is particularly healthy, but it's worked. - [Lex] It's worked so far, but then you've discovered now love for winning to where ultimately longevity wise creates more fun. - [Magnus] Yeah, for sure. - [Lex] Yeah. What's the perfect day in the life of Magnus Carlsen, on a day of a big chess match. It doesn't have to be world championship, but if it's a chess match, you care about, what time do you wake up? What do you eat? - [Magnus] Oh, it depends on when the game is, but let's say the game is at three. I'll probably wake up pretty late at about 11. Then I'll go for a walk. Might listen to some podcasts. Maybe I'll spend a little bit of time looking at some, some NBA game from last night or whatever. - [Lex] To not chess related stuff.

- [Magnus] No, no, no, no. Then I'll get back. I'll have big lunch, like usually like a big omelet, with a bunch of salad and stuff, then go to the game, win like a very nice clean game. - [Lex] Perfect day. - [Lex] Just go back after relax. Like the things that make me the happiest at tournaments is just having a good routine and feeling well. I don't like it when too much is happening around me. So the tournament that I came from now was the Chess Olympia, which is the team then. So we were a team Norway. We did horribly. I did okay, but the team in general did horribly. - [Lex] Who won that, Italy? - [Magnus] No, Italy beat us, but Uzbekistan won in the end. They were this amazing team of young players. It was really impressive. But the thing is like we had a good camaraderie in the team. We had our meals together.

We played a bit of football, went swimming, and I couldn't understand why things went wrong and I still don't understand. But the thing is, for me, it was all very nice. But now I'm so happy to be on my own at a tournament just to have my own routines, not see too many people. - [Lex] Yeah. - [Magnus] Otherwise just have like a very small team of people that I see. - [Lex] You are a kind of celebrity now. So you know, people within the chess tournament and outside recognize you, want to socialize, want to tell you about how much you mean to them, how much you inspire them, all that kind of stuff. Does that get in the way for you when you're like trying to really focus on the match? Are you able to block that? Like are you able to enjoy that those little interactions and still keep your focus? - [Magnus] Yeah, most of the time that's fine, as long as it's not too much. But I have to admit when I'm at home in Norway, like I rarely go out without big headphones on something. - [Lex] Oh, like a disguise.

- [Magnus] Not a disguise, just to block out the world, Otherwise- - [Lex] Don't make eye contact. - [Magnus] Yeah. Also the thing is, people in general are nice. I mean, people, they wish me well, and they don't like bother me also when I have the headphones on, I don't notice as much people like turning around and all of that. So I can be more of in my own world. So I like that. - [Lex] Yeah. What about after, in this perfect day after the game, do you try to analyze what happened? Do you try to think through systematically or do you just kind of loosely think about like what- - [Magnus] No, I just loosely think about it. I've never been very structured in that sense. I know that it was always recommended that you analyze your own games. But I generally felt that I mostly had a good idea about that. Like nowadays I will like loosely see what the engine says at a certain point.

If I'm curious about that, otherwise I usually move on to the next. - [Lex] What about diet? You said omelet and salad, and so on. I heard in your conversation with the other Magnus, Magnus, number two, you had like this bet about meat. One of you gonna go vegan if you lose, I forget which bet. - [Magnus] Vegetarian though. - [Lex] Vegetarians. Yeah, and you both have an admiration for meat. Is there some aspect about optimal performance that you look for in food? Like maybe eating only like once or twice a day or a particular kind of food, like meat, heavy diet. Is there anything lik that, or you just try to have fun with the food? - [Magnus] No, I think whenever I'm at tournaments, like it's very natural to eat, at least for me to eat only twice a day. So usually I do that when I'm at home as well. - [Lex] So you do eat before the tournament though, you don't play fasting? - [Magnus] No, no, no, no. But I try not to eat too heavy before the game or in general to avoid sugary stuff, to have a pretty stable blood sugar level.

'Cause that's the easiest way to make mistake, that your energy levels just suddenly drop. And they don't necessarily mean need to be too high as long as they're pretty stable, yeah. - [Lex] Have you ever tried playing fasting? Like intermittent fasting, playing without having eaten. I mean, the reason I ask, especially when you do a low carb diet, when I have done, a person in low carb diet, I'm able to fast for a long time, like eat once a day, maybe twice a day. But the mind is most focused on like really difficult thinking tasks when it's fasted. It's an interesting, and a lot of people kind of talk about that. And you're able to kind of like zoom in and if you're doing a low carb diet, the energy stable. - [Magnus] No. That is true. Maybe that will be interesting to try. So what's happened for me, I played a few tournaments where I've had food poisoning and then that generally means that you're both, sleep deprived and you have no energy.

And what I've found is that it makes me very calm of course, because I don't have the energy and it makes me super creative. - [Lex] Interesting. - [Magnus] Being sleep deprived, I think in general makes you creative. Just the first thing that goes away is the ability to do the simple things. That's what if it affects you the most. Like you cannot be precise. So that's the only thing I'm worried about. Like if I'm fasting that I won't be precise when I play. - [Lex] But you might be more creative? It's an interesting- - [Magnus] Fasted, yeah, potentially. - [Lex] You have been known to on a rare occasion play drunk. Is there mathematical formula for sort of on the X axis? How many drinks you had, and on the Y axis your performance slash creativity, is there like an optimal for, like would you suggest for the FIDE world championship that people would be required to drink?

Would that change things in interesting ways? - [Magnus] Yeah, not at all. Maybe for rapid, but for blitz. I think if you're playing blitz, you're mostly playing on short calculation and intuition. And I think those are probably enhanced if you've had a little bit to drink. - [Lex] Can you explain the physiology why it's enhanced, or the- - [Magnus] You're thinking less, you're more confident. - [Lex] Oh yeah. It's confident. - [Magnus] I think it's just confidence. I think also like a lot of people feel like they're better at speaking languages for instance, if they've drunk a little bit, it's just like removing these barriers. I think that it's a little bit of the same in chess. In 2012, I played the world Blitz championship and then I was doing horribly for a long time. I also had food poisoning there.

I couldn't play at all for three days. So before the last break I was like in the middle of the pack, like in, I don't know, 20th place or something. And so I decided like as the last gasp, I'm gonna go to the mini bar and just have a few drinks. And what happened is that I came back and I was suddenly relaxed, and I was playing fast, and I was playing confident, and I thought I was playing so well. I wasn't playing nearly as well as I thought, but it still helped me. Like I won my remaining eight games. And if there had been one more round, I probably would've won the whole thing. But finally I was second. So generally I wouldn't recommend that. But maybe that was the last resort sometimes. Like if you feel that you have the ability, like obviously none of this is remotely relevant, if you don't feel like you have the ability to begin with. But if you feel like you have the ability, there are just factors that make it impossible for you to show it like numbing your mind a bit can probably be a good thing.

- [Lex] Yeah, was it's interesting, especially during training, you have all kinds of sports that have interacted with a lot of athletes, in grappling sports. It's different when you train under extreme exhaustion, for example, you start to discover interesting things. You start being more creative. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] A lot of people in, at least in Brazilian jujitsu, they'll smoke weed. It creates this kind of anxiety and relaxation that kinda enables that creative aspect, it's interesting for training, of course you can't rely in any one of those things too much, but it's cool to throw in like a few drinks every once in a while to yeah. One first of all, to relax and have fun, and two to kind of try things differently, to unlock a different part of your brain. - [Magnus] Yeah. For sure. - [Lex] What about supplements? You're a coffee guy? - [Magnus] Oh no. I quite like the taste of coffee, The thing is I've never had a job, so I've never needed to wake up early.

So my thought is basically that if I'm tired, I'm tired. That's fine. Yeah, then I'll work it out. So I don't wanna ever make my brain get used to coffee. Like if you see me drinking coffee, that probably means that I'm massively hungover. And I just want try anything to make my brain work. - [Lex] Yeah. That's interesting. But for a lot of people, like you said, taste of coffee, for a lot of people coffee is part of a certain kind of ritual. - [Magnus] Yeah, for sure. - [Lex] To enjoy, you know, so. - [Magnus] I know that I would enjoy it a lot. - [Lex] So you don't wanna rely on, yeah. - [Magnus] I also like the taste, so there's no problem there. - [Lex] What about exercise? A lot of people talk about the extreme stress that chess puts in your body physically and mentally, how do you prepare for that to be physically, mentally?

Is it just through playing chess or do you do cardio, any of that kind of stuff? - [Magnus] This is gonna bit up and down. Like, as I said in 2013, I was in great shape. Like, I mean, generally I was exercising, doing sports every day, either playing football, or tennis or even other sports. Otherwise if I couldn't do that, I would try and take my bike for a ride. I had a few training camps and I played tennis against one of my seconds. Like he's not a super fit guy, but he's always been very good at tennis. And I never like played in any organized way. And that was the perfect exercise. Because I was running around enough to make the games pretty competitive. And it means meant that he had to run a bit less as well. But he was shocked that if we played like for two hours, I wouldn't flinch at all.

- [Lex] Interesting. So like a combination of fun and the differential between skill, result in good cardio. - [Magnus] Yeah, but it is just that... So in those days I was pretty fit in that sense. I've always liked doing sports, but at times, you know, I think in winter, especially like I never had like a schedule. So at times I let myself go a little bit and I've always kind of done it more for fun than like for a concrete benefit. But now I'm at least after the pandemic, I was not in great shapes. And now I'm trying to get back, get better habits and so on. But I feel like I've always been the poster boy for making being fit a big thing in chess. And I always felt that it was not really a deserve because I never liked doing weights much at all.

I run a bit at times, but I never liked it too much. - [Lex] You just love playing sports. - [Magnus] I just love playing sports, so that I think people confuse, that because I'm not like massively athletic, but I am decent at sports and that's sort of helped build that perception, even though others, who are top level chess players, they're more fit, like Caruana for instance, his body is really, really strong. It's just that he doesn't,- - [Lex] Either goes to the gym and, and he like- - [Magnus] He doesn't play sports. That's the difference. - [Lex] And the thing about sports is also is just, it's an escape. It ma it helps you forget for a brief moment about like the obsessions, the pursuits of the main thing, which is chess. - [Magnus] Yeah, for sure. And I think it also helps your main pursuit to feel that your, even if not mastering, but like doing well in something else.

Like I found that, if I just juggle a ball that makes me feel better before a game. - [Lex] So like a skilled activity- - [Magnus] Juggle a football, yeah. - [Lex] Yeah, skill skilled activity that you can improve on over time. It like flexes the same kind of muscle, but on the thing that you're much worse at. It focuses you, relaxes you. That's really interesting. What's the perfect day in the life of Magnus Carlsen training. So like what's a good training regimen in terms of, you know, daily kind of training that you have to put in across many days, months, and years, to just keep yourself sharp in terms of chess. - [Magnus] I would say when I'm at home, I do very little deliberate practice. I've never been that guy at all. Like I could never force myself to just sit down and work. - [Lex] So deliberate practice, just so maybe you can educate me, for some grand masters what would that look like?

Just doing puzzles kind of thing, or like- - [Magnus] Yeah, doing puzzles and opening analysis. That would be the main things. - [Lex] Studying games? - [Magnus] Studying games. Yeah. A little bit. But I feel like that's something that I do, but it's not deliberate. It's like reading an article or reading a book. - [Lex] Got it. - [Magnus] Like, I love chess books. I'll read just anything and I'll find something interesting. - [Lex] So chess books that are like on openings and stuff like that, or chess books that go over different games. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] Both. - [Lex] Books on, so there are three main categories. There are books on openings and there are books on strategy and there are books on chess history. And I find all of them very, very interesting. - [Lex] Like what fraction of the day would you say you have a chessboard floating somewhere in your head? Meaning like you're thinking about it. - [Magnus] Probably be a better question to ask how many hours a day, I don't have a chessboard board floating in my- (Lex laughing) - [Lex] I mean, it could be just floating there and nothing is happening, but like.

- [Magnus] I often do it parallel to some other activity though. - [Lex] And what does that look like? Like are you daydreaming like different? Is it actual positions you're just fucking around with, like fumbling with different pieces in your head? - [Magnus] Often I've looked at the random game on my phone, for instance, in a book. And then my brain just keeps going out the same position, analyzing it. And often it goes all the way, you know, to the end game. - [Lex] And those are actual games or you conjure up like fake games? - [Magnus] No, they were often based on real games. And then I'm thinking like, oh, but it wouldn't be more interesting if the pieces were a little bit different and then often I play it out from there. - [Lex] Like you don't sit behind a computer or a chessboard and you lay out the pieces, and you're- - [Magnus] No, I'm not at all a poster board for deliberate practice. I could never work that way. My first coach, he gave me some exercises did at home sometimes.

But he realized at some point that wasn't gonna work. Because I wouldn't do it really or enjoy it. So what he would do instead is that at the school where I had the trainings with him, there was this massive chess library. So he was just like, yeah, pick up books. You can have anything you want, just pick up books you like, and then you give back the next time. So that's I did instead. Yeah, I just absolutely rated the... Then my next tournament, I will try out one of the openings from that book, if it was an opening book and so on, so. - [Lex] Does it feel like challenging, like to be thinking of those positions or is it fun and relaxing? - [Magnus] No, it's completely fine. I don't. - [Lex] Like if it's a difficult position to figure out, you know, like to calculate, but. - [Magnus] Then I go on to something else. - [Lex] Okay. - [Magnus] Like if I can't figure it out, then you know how I go on. (Lex laughing) - [Lex] Change it so that it's easier to figure out.

There was a point in your life where Kasparov was interested in being your coach, or training with you. Why did you choose not to go with him? That's a pretty bold move. Was there a good reason for this? - [Magnus] No. The first like homework exercise he gave me was to analyze, like he picked out I think three or four of my worst losses and he wanted me to analyze them and give him my thoughts. And it wasn't that there were painful losses or anything. That was a problem, I just didn't really enjoy that. Also, I felt that this whole structured approach and everything. I just felt like from the side, there was a hassle. So I loved the idea of being able to pick his brain, but everything else, I just couldn't see myself enjoying. And at the end of the day I did then and always have played for fun, that's always been like the reason, so.

- [Lex] It's great that you had the confidence to sort of basically turn down the approach of one of the greatest chess players of all time, at that time, probably the greatest chess player of all time. - [Magnus] I don't think I thought of it that way. I just thought this is not for me. I wouldn't try another way. I don't think I was particularly thinking that this is my one opportunity or anything. It was just, yeah, I don't enjoy this. Let's try something else. - [Lex] When you were 13, you faced Kasparov, and he wasn't able to beat you. Can you go through that match? What did that feel like? How important was that? How epic was that? - [Magnus] We played three games. I lost two and I drew one. - [Lex] Right. But one draw- - [Magnus] No, the one draw. - [Lex] But didn't you say that you kind of had a better position in that? - [Magnus] Yeah, I remember that day very well. There was a Blitz game. This was a rapid tournament. And there was a Blitz tournament the day before, which determined the pairings for the Rapids.

- [Lex] And for people who don't know, super short games are called bullet, kind of short games are called blitz. Semi short games are called rapid. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] And classic chess, I guess is like very super long. - [Magnus] Yeah, basically bullet just never played over the board. So in terms over the board chess, blitz is the shortest. Rapid is like a hybrid between classical and blitz. You need to have the skills for both. And then classical is long. The blitz tournament, which didn't go so well. Like I got a couple of wins, but I was beaten badly in a lot of games, including by Garry. And so there was the pairing that I had to play him, which is pretty exciting. So I remember I was so tired after the blitz tournament, like I slept for 12 hours or something. Then I woke up like, okay, I'll turn on my computer. I'll search chess space for Kasparov and we'll go from there. (Lex laughing) So before that, I hadn't spent like a lot of time specifically studying his games and it was super intimidating because a lot of these openings I knew, I was like, oh, he was the first one to play that.

Oh, that was his idea. I actually didn't know that. So I was a bit intimidated before we played. Then of course the first game he arrived a bit late because they changed the time from the first day to the other, which is a bit strange. But everybody else had noticed it, but him, then he tried to surprise me in the opening. I think like psychologically the situation was not so easy for him. Like clearly it would be embarrassing for him if he didn't win both games against me. Then like I was spending way too much time on my moves because I was playing Kasparov. I was double checking everything too much. Like normally I would be playing pretty fast in those days. And then at some point I calculated better than him. He missed a crucial detail and I had a much better position. I couldn't convert it though. I knew what line I had to go for, in order to have a chance to win. But I thought like, I'll play a bit more carefully. Maybe I can win still, I couldn't.

And then I lost the second game pretty badly, which it wasn't majorly upsetting, but I felt that I had two black games against Kasparov both in the blitz and the rapid. And I lost both of them without any fight whatsoever. I wasn't happy about that at all. That was like less than I thought I could be able to do. So to me, yeah, I was proud of that, but it was a gimmick. I was like a very strong I am, but had GM's strength. I was like, it can happen that a player of that strength makes it a draw against Garry once in a while. - [Lex] Yeah. - [Magnus] But I mean, I understand that I'm 13, but like still I felt a bit more gimmicky than anything. I mean, I guess it is a good thing that made me notice. But apart from that, wasn't yeah. - [Lex] And for people who don't know, I am as international master and GM was grandmaster and you were, I guess on the verge of becoming a young youngest grandmaster ever.

- [Magnus] I was the second youngest ever. I think I'm like the seventh youngest now. I mean these kids these days. - [Lex] Kids these days. - [Magnus] Yeah. But I was the youngest grandmaster at the time in the world. - [Lex] Yeah, so you say it's gimmicky, but there's a romantic notion. Especially as things have turned out, right, like- - [Magnus] No, for sure. - [Lex] And have you talked to Garry since then about that? - [Magnus] No, not really. I think he's embarrassed about. - [Lex] He's still bitter you think? - [Magnus] No, I don't think he is bitter, but I think the game in itself was a bit embarrassing for him, so. - [Lex] Even he can't see past like is- - [Magnus] No, no, no, no. I think he's completely fine with that. I think like in retrospect it's a good story. He appreciates that. I don't think that's the problem, but it never made sense for me to broach the subject with him. - [Lex] Yeah, it's funny, just having interacted with Garry, now having talked to you, there is a little thing, you still hate losing.

No matter how beautiful like that moment is, 'cause in a way it's a passing of the Baton from like one great champion to another. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] Right? But you still just don't like the fact that you didn't play a good game from a Garry's perspective. Like he still is just annoyed probably that he could have played better. - [Magnus] So we did work together in 2009, quite a lot. And that corporation ended early 2010, but we did play a lot of training games in 2009, which was interesting because he was still a very, very strong. And at that time it was fairly equal. Like he was playing me quite a bit, but I was fighting well. So it was pretty pretty even then. So I mean, I appreciate those games a lot more than some random game from when I was 13. And I maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about, but I always found it, at least based on that game, you couldn't tell that I was gonna take his spot.

Like I made a horrible blunder and lost to an Uzbek kid in the world rapid championship in 2018. And I mean, granted, he was part of the team that now won gold in the chess Olympia, but he wasn't a crucial partly, he barely played any games. Like it wasn't like I would think that he would become world champion because he beat me. I'm always skeptical of those who said that they knew that I was gonna be world champion after that game or at all at that time. I mean, it was easy to see that I would become a very, very strong player. Everybody could see that, but to be the best in the world, or one of the best ever. - [Lex] It's true, it is hard to say. But I do remember seeing Messi when he was 16 and 17. - [Magnus] But hasn't that happened with other players though? - [Lex] Yeah, but I just had a personal experience. He did look different than, there's like magic there. Maybe you can't tell he would be one of the greatest ever, but there's still magic.

But you're right, most of the time, we try to project, we see a young kid being an older person and you start to think, okay, this could be the next great person. Then we forget when they don't become that. - [Magnus] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's I think what happens. - [Lex] But when it does become- - [Magnus] Or maybe some people are just so good at seeing this patterns that they can actually see. - [Lex] Aren't you supposed to do that kind of thing with fantasy football, like see the long shot, and bet on them and then they turn out to be good. - [Magnus] That's you make a lot of long shot bets and then some of them come good. - [Lex] And then people call you a genius for making the bat. Well, let me ask you the GOAT question, again from fantasy perspective, can you make the case for the greatest chess player of all time for each, yourself Maggie Carlson for Garrett Kasparov, I don't know who else. Bobby Fischer, Mikhail Tal, anyone else, for Hikaru Nakamura, just kidding. - [Magnus] Yeah. I think I can make a case for myself, for Garry, and for Fischer.

So I'll start with Fischer, for him, it's very, very simple. He was ahead of his time, but that's like intangible. You can say it out about a lot of people. But he had a peak from 1970 to 72 when he was so much better than the others. He won 20 games in a row. Also the way that he played was so powerful and with so few mistakes, that he just had no opposition there. So he had just a peak that's been better than anybody like. - [Lex] The gap between first- - [Magnus] The gap between him and others was greater than it's ever been in history at any other time. And that would be the argument for him. For Garry, he's played in a very competitive era and he's beaten several generations. He was the best. Well, he was the consensus best player, I would say for almost 20 years, which nobody else has done in at least in recent time, and- - [Lex] So the longevity.

- [Magnus] That the longevity, for sure, also at his peak, he was not quite a level of Fischer in terms of the gap, but it was similar or I think even a little bit better than mine. As for me, I'm of course, unbeaten as a world champion in five tries, I've been world number one for 11 years straight, in an even more competitive era than Garry. I have the highest chess rating of all time. I have the longest streak ever without losing a game. I think for me, the main argument would be about the era where the engines have leveled the playing field so much that it's harder to dominate. And still, I haven't always been a clear number one, but I've been number one for 11 years. And for a lot of the time, the gap has been pretty big.

So I think there are decent arguments for all of them. I've said before, and I haven't changed my mind that Gary generally edges it because of the longevity in the competitive era. But there are arguments. - [Lex] But people also talk about you in terms of the style of play. So it's not just about dominance or the hype, it's like just the, the creative genius of it. - [Magnus] Yeah, but I'm not interested in that. In terms of greatest of all time, I'm not interested in questions of style. - [Lex] So for Messi, you don't give credit for the stylistic genius. - [Magnus] No, I like watching it. - [Lex] But you're not gonna give points for the, so Messi, because of the finishing. - [Magnus] It's not because of the finishing it's because of his overall impact on the game. It's higher than anybody else's.

- [Lex] Okay. - [Magnus] He can just contribute more to winning than anybody else does. - [Lex] So you're somebody who is advocated for, and has done quite a bit of study of classic games. What would you say is, I mean, maybe the number one or maybe top three games of chess ever played. - [Magnus] That doesn't interest me at all. - [Lex] You don't think of the- - [Magnus] No, I don't think of it, I mean, I find the games interesting. I try to learn from them, but like trying to rank them has never interested. - [Lex] What games pop out to you is like super interesting then? Is there things like old school games where there's like interesting ideas that you go back, or like you find surprising and pretty cool that those ideas were developed like that? Is there something that jumps to mind? - [Magnus] Yeah, there are several games of young Kasparov of like before he became world champion.

If you're gonna ask for like my favorite player or favorite style, that's probably- - [Lex] Youngest Kasparov. - [Magnus] Youngest Kasparov. - [Lex] Can you describe stylistically or in any other way? What youngest Youngest Kasparov was like that you like. - [Magnus] It was just an overflow energy in his play. - [Lex] So aggressive, attacking chess- - [Magnus] Extremely aggressive dynamic chess. It probably appeals to me a lot because these are the things that I cannot do as well. That it just feels very special to me. But yeah, in terms of games, never thought about that too much. - [Lex] Is there memories big or small, weird, surprising, just any kind of beautiful anecdote from your chess career, like stuff that pops out that people might not know about. Just stuff when you look back, it just makes you smile. - [Magnus] No, so I'll tell you about the most satisfying tournament victory of my career.

So that was the Norwegian championship under 11 in 2000 before that tournament, I was super anxious, because I started like kind of late at chess. I played my first tournament when I was eight and a half. And a lot of my competitors had already played for a couple of years or even three, four years at that point. And the first time, so I played under 11 championship in 99. That was like a little over the middle of the pack. I'd never played against any of them before, so I didn't know what to expect at all. And then over the next year, I was just like edging a little bit closer, in each tournament I felt like I was getting a little bit better. And when we had the championship, I knew that I was ready, that I was now at the same level of the best players. I was so anxious to show it. I remember, the feeling of excitement and nervousness before the tournament was incredible. The tournament was weird because I started out, I gave away a draw to a weaker player whom I shouldn't have drawn to.

And then I drew against the other guy who was clearly like the best or second best. And at that point I thought it was over. 'Cause I thought he wouldn't give away points to others. And then the very next day he lost to somebody. So the rest of the tournament, it was just like, I was always like playing my game and watching his, and we both won the rest of our games, but it meant that I was half a point. I had like the feeling when I realized that I was gonna win, that was just so amazing. It was like the first time that I was the best at my age. And at that point. - [Lex] You were hooked. - [Magnus] Yeah, at that point I realized, you know, I could actually be very good at this. - [Lex] So you kind of saw, where did you think your ceiling would be? Did you see that one day you could be the number one- - [Magnus] No, I didn't think that was possible at all.

But I thought that could be the best in Norway. - [Lex] The best in Norway. - [Magnus] At that point. - [Lex] When did you first- - [Magnus] But because like I started relatively late. And also, like I knew that I studied a lot more than the others. I knew that I had a passion that they didn't have. They saw chess as something like it was, you know, it was a hobby, it was like an activity, it was like going to football practice or any other sports. Like, you practice like once or twice a week, and then you play a tournament at the weekend. That's what they did, for me it wasn't like that. Like, I would go with my books and my board every day after school. And I would just constantly be trying to learn new things. I had like two hours of internet time on the computer each week. And I would always spend them on chess.

I think before I was 13 or 14, I'd never opened a browser for any other reason than to play chess. - [Lex] Would you describe that as love, or as obsession, or something in between, it's everything? - [Magnus] Yeah. Everything. I mean, it wasn't hard for me to tell at that point that I had something that the other kids didn't. Because I was never the one to grasp something very, very quickly. But once I started, I always got hooked and then I never stopped learning. - [Lex] You've talked about the middle game as a place where you can play pure chess. What do you think is beautiful to you about chess? Like the thing when you were 11. - [Magnus] What is beautiful to me, is when your opponent can predict every single one of your moves and they still lose. - [Lex] How does that happen?

- [Magnus] No, like it means that at some point early, your planning, your evaluation has been better, so that you play just very simply, very clearly, it looks like you did nothing special and your opponent lost without a chance. - [Lex] How do you think about that by the way, are you basically narrowing down this gigantic tree of options to where your opponent has less and less and less options to win, to escape and then they're trapped? Yeah, that's it. - [Magnus] Essentially. - [Lex] Is there some aspect to the patterns themselves, to the positions, to the elegance of like, the dynamics of the game that you just find beautiful, where you forget about the opponent. - [Magnus] General I try and create harmony on the board. Like what I would usually find harmonious is that the pieces work together, that they protect each other and that there are no pieces that are suboptimally placed, or if they are suboptimally placed, they can be improved pretty easily.

Like I hate when I have one piece that I know is badly placed, and I can't improve it. - [Lex] When you're thinking about the harmony of the pieces, when you're looking at the position, you're evaluating it, are you looking at the whole board, or is it like a bunch of groupings of pieces overlapping? And like dancing together kind of thing. - [Magnus] I would say it's more of the latter. That would be more precise that you look, I mean, I look mostly closer to the middle, but then I would focus on one. Like, there are usually like one grouping of pieces on one side and then some more closer to the other side. So I would think of it a little bit that way. - [Lex] So, and everything's kind of gravitating to the middle. - [Magnus] If it's going well then yes. - [Lex] And in harmony. - [Magnus] Yeah, in harmony. Like if you can control the middle, you can more easily attack on both sides.

That applies to pretty much any game, it's as simple as that. And like attacking on one side without control of the middle would feel very non-harmonious for me. I talked about the 10th game in the world championship. Like that's the time I was the most nervous. Because it was a kind of attack that I hate where you abandon one side and they attack has to work. There was one side and part of the middle as well, which I didn't control at all. And that's like the opposite of harmony for me. - [Lex] What advice would you give to chess players of different levels, how to improve in chess? Very beginner, complete beginner. I mean, at every level, is there something you can- - [Magnus] It's very, very hard for me to say, because, I mean, the easiest way is like, love chess, be obsessed.

- [Lex] Well, that's a really important statement. - [Magnus] But that doesn't work for everybody. - [Lex] I feel like it can feel like a grind. So you're saying, less it can feel like a grind the better. - [Magnus] Yeah for sure. - [Lex] At least for you. - [Magnus] That's for sure. But I'm also very, very skeptical about giving advice, because I think, again, my way only works, if you have some combination of talented and obsession, so I'm not sure that I generally recommended. Like what I've done, doesn't go with what most coaches suggest for their kids. I've been lucky that I've had coaches from early on that I've been very, very hands off and just allowed me to do my thing basically. - [Lex] Well, there's a lot to be said about cultivating the obsession, like really, really letting that flourish to where you spend a lot of hours, like with the chess board in your head and it doesn't feel like a struggle.

- [Magnus] No, so like just letting me do my thing. Like if you gave me a bunch of work, it will probably feel like a chore. And if you don't give me, I will spend all of that time on my own without thinking that it's work or without thought that I'm doing this to improve my chess. - [Lex] Well, in terms of learning stuff like books, there's one thing that's relatively novel from your perspective. People are studying novels, there's YouTube. There's a lot of good YouTubers. You're part-time YouTuber. You have stuff on YouTube, I guess. - [Magnus] But if you've seen my YouTube, it's mostly like. - [Lex] It's carefree. - [Magnus] Definitely not higher for content. - [Lex] Yeah. But do you like any particular YouTubers? I could just recommend like stuff I've seen. So Agadmator's, the Gotham Chess, BotezLive. I really like St. Louis Chess Club. Daniel Naroditsky and John Bartholomew.

Those are good channels, but is there something you can recommend? - [Magnus] No, all of of them are, you know, the best recommendation I could give is a Agadmator's, purely- - [Lex] How much did he pay you to say that? - [Magnus] No, so the thing about that is that, so I can tell you, I've never watched any of his videos from start to finish. I'm not the target audience, obviously. But I think the only chess, YouTube video that my dad has ever watched from start to finish is Agadmator. And he said, like, I watched one of his videos. I wanted to know what it was all about, because I think Agadmator is like the same strengths as my father, or maybe just a little bit weaker, like 1900 or something. My father is probably about 2000. And my father has played chess his whole life. He absolutely loves the game. It was like, that's the only time he is actually sat through one of those videos.

And he said like, yeah, I get it, I enjoy it. So that's the best recommendation I could give, that's the only channel that my father actually enjoys. - [Lex] This is hilarious. I talked to him before this to ask him if he has any questions for you. And he said, no, just do your thing. - [Magnus] No, he's so careful. He wouldn't do that. - [Lex] He did mention jokingly about Evan's Gambit, I think. Is that a thing Evan's Gambit? Is some weird thing he made up, it might be an inside joke. I don't know, but he asked me to, well, anyway. It's something he made up. - [Magnus] Didn't even realize that he placed the Evans Gambit. Like he plays a lot of gambits that are- - [Lex] Wait, Evans Gambit is a thing? - [Magnus] Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. Like that's an old opening from the 1800s Captain Evans apparently invented it. - [Lex] Why would he mention that particular one? So something hilarious about that one? - [Magnus] I don't know. Cause I don't think I've ever faced the Evans Gambit in a game.

- [Lex] I feel like both of you are trolling me right now. - I mean he's so he's played a lot of other gambits. Maybe this is the one he wanted to mention. Maybe this is called the Evans Gambit as well, but I just know it as like the 2G4 gambits. Maybe this is the one. Like this one he has played a bunch and he is been telling me a lot about his games in this line. It's like, oh, it's not so bad. And I'm like, yeah, your pawn down. But I can sort of see it. I can sort of understand it. And he's proud of the fact that nobody like told him to play this line or anything. He came up with it himself. And there's this, I'll tell you another story about my father. So there there's this line that I called the Henry Carlsen line. (both chuckling) - What's the line? - So at some point, you know, he never knew a lot of openings in chess, but I taught him a couple of openings as black.

It's the Scheveningen of Sicilian that I've played a lot myself also during the world championship in 2018, I won a bunch of games in 2019 as well, so that's one opening. And also taught him as black to play the Ragozin defense. So the Ragozin defense goes like this. It's characterized by those bishop move. And so he would play those openings pretty exclusively and as black and the tournaments that it did play. And also the Scheveningen of Sicilian is like, that's the only two of my sisters have played a bunch of chess tournaments as well. And that's the only opening they know as well. So my family's opening is very narrow. So this is the system, black goes here, and then very often white takes the pawn, and black takes pawn. So at some point I was watching one of my father's online blitz game.

And as white, he played this, this, so this is called the Caro-Kann defense. He took the pawn. It was taken back. Then he went with the knight. His opponent went here and then he played a bishop here. So I'd never seen this opening before, and I was like, wow, how on earth did he come up with that? And he said, no, I just played the Ragozin with the different colors. Because if the knight was here, it would be the same position. I was like, how am I like one of the best 20 players in the world and I've never thought about that. So I actually started playing this line as white with pretty decent results and it actually became kind of popular. And everybody who asked about the line was like, I would always tell 'em yeah, that's the Henry Carlsen. I wouldn't necessarily explain why it was called that, I would just always call it that.

So I really hope at some point, this line will find its rightful name. - It finds its ways into the history books. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] What'd you learn about life from your dad? What role has your dad played in your life? - [Magnus] He's taught me a lot of things, but most of all, as long as you win a chess, then everything else is fine. (Lex laughing) I think especially my father, but my parents in general, they always wanted me to get a good education and find a job, ad so on, even though my father loves chess and he wanted me to play chess, I don't think he had any plans for me to be professional. I think things changed at some point, like I was less and less interested in school and for a long time, or kind of going back and forth, fighting about that, especially my father, but also my mother a little bit.

It was at times a little bit difficult. - [Lex] They wanted you to go to school. - [Magnus] They sort of wanted me to do more school to have more options. And then I think at some point they just gave up, but I think that sort of coincided when I was actually starting to make real money off tournaments. And after that, you know, everything's been sort of easy and like terms of the family, like they've never put any pressure on me or they've never put any demands on me. There's just, yeah. Magnus has to focus on just that's that that's it. I think they taught me in general to be curious about the world and to get a decent general education, not necessarily from school, but like just knowing about the world around you and knowing history and being, you know, just being interested in society.

I think in that sense they've done well. - [Lex] And he's been with you throughout your chess career. I mean, there's something to be said about just family support and love that you have, that, this world is a lonely place. It's good to have people around you there, like. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] That got your back kind of, you know. - [Magnus] Yeah. It's a cliche, but I think to some extent, all the people you surround yourself with, they can help you a lot. It's only family that only has their own interests at heart. And so for that reason, like my father's like the only one that's been like constantly in the team and that he's always been around. And it's for that reason that I know he has my back, no matter what. - [Lex] Now there's a cliche question here, let's try to actually get to some deep truth perhaps, but people who don't know much about chess seem to like to use chess as a metaphor for everything in life.

But there is some aspect to the decision making, to the kind of reasoning and involved in chess, that's transferable to other things. Can you speak to that in your own life and in general, the kind of reasoning involved with chess, how much is that does transfer to life out there? - [Magnus] It just helps you makes decisions. - [Lex] Of all kinds. - [Magnus] Yeah. That would be my main takeaway, that you learn to make informed guesses in a limited amount of time. - [Lex] I mean, does it frustrate you when, you have geopolitical thinkers and leaders, Henry Kissinger will often talk about geopolitics as a game of chess or 3D chess. Is that a tool oversimplified of a projection or do you think that the kind of deliberations you have on the world stage is similar to the kind of decision making you have, on the chess board? - [Magnus] Well, I'm never trying to get reelected when I play a game of chess.

- [Lex] There's no special interest you have to get happy. - [Magnus] Yeah, that kind of helps. No, I can understand, that obviously for every action there's a reaction and you have to calculate far ahead, it probably would a good thing if more big players on the international scene thought a little bit more like a chess player in that sense, like trying to make good decision based on limited amount of data, rather than thinking about other factors. But it's so tough, but it does annoy me when people make moves that they know are wrong for different reasons. - [Lex] And they should know, if they did some calculation, they should know they're wrong. - [Magnus] Yeah, exactly. That they should know that are wrong. And so much politics is like, you're often asked to do something when it would be much better to do nothing.

(Lex laughing) But that happens in chess all the time. Like you have a choice. Like I often tell people that in certain situations you should not try and win. You should just let your opponent loose. And that happens in politics all the time. Just let your opponents continue, whatever they're doing. And then you'll win. Don't try to do something just to do something. Often they say in chess that having a bad plan is better than having no plan's, absolute nonsense. - [Lex] I forget what general said, but it was like, don't interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake. Yeah. I think. - [Magnus] Also Petrosian, the former world champion said, "When your opponent wants to play Dutch defense, don't stop them." I mean, chess players will know that it's the same thing. - [Lex] Actually, this reminds me, is there something you found really impressive about "Queens Gambit," the TV show?

You know, that's one of the things that really captivated the public imagination about chess, people who don't play chess or became very curious about the game, about the beauty of the game, the drama of the game, all that kind of stuff. Is there in terms of accuracy, in terms of the actual games played that you found impressive? - [Magnus] First of all, they did the chess well, they did it accurately. And also they found actual games and positions that I never never seen before, which really captivated me. Like I would not follow the story at times. I was just trying to- - [Lex] Wow. - [Magnus] Where the hell did I find that game, was trying to solve the positions? - [Lex] So Beth Harmon, the main character you impressed by the place she was doing in the... Like was there a particular style that they developed consistently? - [Magnus] At the end, she was just totally universal. Like at the start, she was probably a bit too aggressive, but no, she was absolutely universal.

- [Lex] Wait, what adjective are you using? - [Magnus] Universal, in the sense that she could play in any style. - [Lex] Oh, interesting. And was dominant in that way. Wow, they say there was a development in the style too throughout the show. - [Magnus] Yeah, for sure. - [Lex] It's really interesting they did that. - [Magnus] Yeah, and it actually happened with me a bit as well. Like I started out really aggressive. Then I became probably too technical at some point, taking a little bit too fewer risks and not playing dynamic enough. And then I started to get little bit better at dynamics. So that now I'm, I would say definitely the most universal player, in terms of style. - [Lex] Are there any skills in chess that are transferable to poker? So as you're playing around with poker a little bit now, how fundamentally different of a game is it? - [Magnus] What I find the most transferable probably is not like letting past decisions dictates future thinking.

- [Lex] Yeah. But in terms of the patterns in the betting strategies and all that kind of stuff. What about bluffing, 'cause you- - [Magnus] I bluff way too much. - [Lex] It does seem you enjoy bluffing. And Daniel Negreanu was saying, you're quite good at it. - [Magnus] Yeah, it has very little material to go by. - [Lex] Sample size is small. - [Magnus] No, I mean, I enjoy bluffing for the more the gambling aspects, the real love. - [Lex] So not the technical aspect of the bluffing, like you would on the chessboard. - Not bluffing in the same sense, but there is some element, but I do enjoy it on the chessboard. Like if I know that like, oh, I successfully scared away my opponent for making the best move, that's of course satisfying. - [Lex] In that same way, it might be satisfying in poker, right? That you represent something, you scare away your opponent, in the same kind of way. - [Magnus] And also like you tell a story. You try and tell a story and then they blew it. - [Lex] Yeah, tell a story with your betting, with all the different other cues.

Do you like the money aspect? The betting strategies. So it's almost like another layer on top of it, right? Like it's the uncertainty in the cards, but there's so much freedom to the betting. - [Magnus] I'm not very good at that. So I cannot say that I understand it completely. When it comes to different sizing and a lot, I just haven't studied it enough. - [Lex] How much of luck is part of poker? Would you say from what you've seen versus skill? - [Magnus] I mean, it's so different in the sense that you can be one of the best players in the world and lose two or three years in a row without that being, like a massive outlier. - [Lex] Okay, the thing that more than one person told me that you're very good at is trash talking. - [Magnus] I don't think I am. A lot of people who make those observations about me.

I think they just expect very, very little. From the best chess player in the world, anything that's non robotic is interesting. Also when it comes to trash talking, like I have the biggest advantage in the world that I'm the best at what I'm doing. So trash talking becomes very, very, very easy because I can back it up. - [Lex] Yeah, but a lot of people that are extremely good at stuff don't trash talk and they're not good at it. - [Magnus] I don't think I'm very good at it. It is just that I can back it up, which makes it seem that I'm better. - [Lex] And also you're even doing it now. - [Magnus] Also being non-robotic or not completely robotic helps. - [Lex] Yeah, you're not trash talking, you're just stating facts, that's right. Have you ever considered that there would be trash talking over the chessboard and some of the big tournaments. Like adding that kind of component or even talking, you know? - [Magnus] Mm. - [Lex] Would that completely distract from the game of chess?

- [Lex] No, I think it could be funny. And when people play, I found games when they play blitz games, like people trash talk all the time. It's a normal part of the game. - [Lex] So you, you emphasize fun a lot. Do you think we're living inside of a simulation that is trying to maximize fun. - [Magnus] But that's only happened for the last, you know, a hundred years or so? - [Lex] The fun has always been increasing, I think. - [Magnus] Yeah. Okay. It's always been increasing, but I feel like it's been increasing exponentially. I mean, at least the importance of fun, but I guess it depends on the society as well. Like in the west, we've had such Christian influence and I mean, Christianity, hasn't exactly embraced the concept of fun over time. - [Lex] Well actually to push back, I think forbidding certain things kind of makes them more fun.

So sometimes I think you need to say, you're not allowed to do this. And then a lot of people start doing it and then they have fun doing that. 'Cause it it's doing a thing in the face of the resistance of the thing. So whenever there's resistance that does somehow make it more fun. - [Magnus] Oppressive regimes has always kind of good for comedy, huh? (Lex laughing) - [Lex] Yes. - [Magnus] Supposedly like in the Soviet Union, I don't know about fun, but supposedly comedy, like at least underground, it thrived. - [Lex] Yeah, it permeates the entire culture. There's a dark humor. That sort of the cruelty, the absurdity of life really, really brings out the humor amongst the populace, plus vodka on top of that. But this idea that this, for example, Elon Musk has that, the most entertaining outcome was the most likely. That it seems like the most absurd, silly, funny thing seems to be the thing. - [Magnus] So it happens more often than it should.

- [Lex] And it becomes viral in our modern connected world. And so the fun stuff, the memes spread, and then we start to optimize for the fun meme. That seems to be a fundamental properly of the reality we live in. And so emerges the fun maximizer in all walks of life, like in chess, in, in poker and everything. - [Magnus] I think- - [Lex] You're skeptical. - [Magnus] No, I'm not skeptical. I'm just taking it all in. But I find it interesting and not at all impossible. - [Lex] Do you ever get lonely? - [Magnus] Oh yeah, for sure. Like a chess player's life is by definition pretty lonely because you have nobody else to blame, but yourself, when you lose or you don't achieve the results that you wanna achieve. - [Lex] It's difficult for you to find comfort elsewhere. It's in your own mind.

- [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] It's you versus yourself, really? - [Magnus] Yeah, really. But it's part of the profession, but I think any like sport or activity where it's just you and your own mind is just by definition lonely. - [Lex] Are you worried that it destroys you? - [Magnus] Oh, not at all. As long as I'm aware of it, then it's fine. And I don't think the inherent loneliness of my profession really affects the rest of my life in a major way. - [Lex] What role does love play in the human condition, and in your lonely life of calculation. - [Magnus] You know, I'm like everybody else- - [Lex] Trying to find love. - [Magnus] No, not necessarily like trying to find love. Sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not, I'm just trying to find my way.

- [Lex] Yeah. - [Magnus] And my love for the game, obviously it comes and goes a little bit, but there's always at least some level of love so that doesn't doesn't go away. But I think in other parts of life, I think it's just about doing things that make you happy, that give you joy. That that also makes you more receptive to love in general. So that has been my approach to love now for quite a while, that I'm just trying to live my best life and then the level will come when it comes. And in terms of romantic love, it has come and gone in my life. It's not there now, but I'm not worried about that. I'm more worried about, you know, not worried, but more like trying to just be a good version of myself.

I cannot always be the best version of myself, but at least try to be good. - [Lex] Yeah, and keep your heart open. What is this? Daniel Johnston song, "True Love Will Find You in the End." - [Magnus] No, it may or may not. - [Lex] But it will only find you if, oh fuck. How does it go? If you're looking so like you have to be open to it. - [Magnus] Yeah. - [Lex] It may or may not. Yeah, yeah. And no matter what, you're gonna lose it in the end, 'cause it all ends. The whole thing ends. - [Magnus] Yeah. Yeah. So I don't think stressing over that. Like obviously it's so human that you can't help it to some degree, but I feel like stressing over love. That's the blueprint for, whether you're looking, or you're not looking, or you're in a relationship or married, or anything like stressing over it is like the blueprint for being unhappy. - [Lex] Just to clarify a confusion I have, just a quick question. How does the knight move?

- [Magnus] So the knight moves in an L, and unlike in Shogi can move both forwards then backwards. It is quite a nimble piece. It can jump over everything, but it's less happy and open position where it has to move from side to side quickly. I am generally more of a bishop's guy myself, for the old debate. I just prefer quality over the intangibles, but I can appreciate a good knight once in a while. - [Lex] Last simple question. What's the meaning of life, Magnus Carlsen? - [Magnus] There is obviously no meaning to life. - [Lex] Is that obvious? - [Magnus] I think we're here by accident. There's no meaning, it ends at some point. - [Lex] Yeah. - [Magnus] But it's still a great thing, so. - [Lex] You can still have fun even if there's no meaning. - [Magnus] Yeah, you can still have fun. You can try and pursue your goals, whatever they may be, but I'm pretty sure there's no special meaning in trying to find it, also doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

For me, like life is both meaningless and meaningful for just being here, trying to make not necessarily the most of it, but the things that make you make you happy, both short term and also long term. - [Lex] Yeah, it seems to be full of cool stuff to enjoy. - [Magnus] It certainly does. - [Lex] And one of those is having a conversation with you Magnus. This is a huge honor to talk to you. Thank you so much for spending this time with me. I can't wait to see what you do in this world and thank you for creating so much elegance and beauty on the chessboard and beyond. So thanks for talking today, brother. - [Magnus] Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. And I wanted to say this at the start, but I never get really got the chance. I was always a bit apprehensive about doing this podcast because you are a very smart guy and your audience is very smart. And I always had a bit of imposter syndrome. So I'll tell you this now after the podcast, so please do judge me, but I hope you have enjoyed it.

- [Lex] I loved it. You're a brilliant man. And I love the fact they have imposter syndrome because a lot of us do. And so that's beautiful to see even at the very top, but you still feel like an imposter. (Lex laughing) Thank you brother. Thanks for talking today. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Magnus Carlsen. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with some words from Bobby Fischer. "Chess is a war over the board. The object is to crush the opponent's mind." Thank you for listening and hold to see you next time.