Annie Jacobsen: Nuclear War, CIA, KGB, Aliens, Area 51, Roswell & Secrecy | Lex Fridman Podcast #420

1,770 nuclear weapons deployed meaning 1,770 nuclear weapons deployed meaning those weapons could launch in as little those weapons could launch in as little those weapons could launch in as little as 60 seconds and up to a couple minutes as 60 seconds and up to a couple minutes as 60 seconds and up to a couple minutes some of them on the bombers might take some of them on the bombers might take some of them on the bombers might take an hour or so Russia has an hour or so Russia has an hour or so Russia has 1,674 deployed nuclear weapons same 1,674 deployed nuclear weapons same 1,674 deployed nuclear weapons same scenario their weapon systems are on par scenario their weapon systems are on par scenario their weapon systems are on par with with with ours that's not to mention the 12,500 ours that's not to mention the 12,500 ours that's not to mention the 12,500 nuclear weapons amongst the nine nuclear nuclear weapons amongst the nine nuclear nuclear weapons amongst the nine nuclear armed Nations the sucking up into the armed Nations the sucking up into the armed Nations the sucking up into the nuclear stem 300 mph winds you're nuclear stem 300 mph winds you're nuclear stem 300 mph winds you're talking about people miles out getting talking about people miles out getting talking about people miles out getting sucked up into that stem when you see sucked up into that stem when you see sucked up into that stem when you see the mushroom cloud Lex that would be the mushroom cloud Lex that would be the mushroom cloud Lex that would be people 30 40 mile wide mushroom cloud people 30 40 mile wide mushroom cloud people 30 40 mile wide mushroom cloud blocking out the Sun and that speaks blocking out the Sun and that speaks blocking out the Sun and that speaks nothing of the radiation poisoning that nothing of the radiation poisoning that nothing of the radiation poisoning that follows in addition to the launch on follows in addition to the launch on follows in addition to the launch on warning concept there's this other warning concept there's this other warning concept there's this other insane concept called sole presidential insane concept called sole presidential insane concept called sole presidential Authority and you might think in a Authority and you might think in a Authority and you might think in a democracy that's impossible right you democracy that's impossible right you democracy that's impossible right you can't just start a war well you can just can't just start a war well you can just can't just start a war well you can just start a nuclear war if you're the start a nuclear war if you're the start a nuclear war if you're the commanderin-chief the president of the commanderin-chief the president of the commanderin-chief the president of the United States in fact you're the only United States in fact you're the only United States in fact you're the only one who can do that we are one one who can do that we are one one who can do that we are one misunderstanding one miscalculation away misunderstanding one miscalculation away misunderstanding one miscalculation away from nuclear Armageddon no matter how from nuclear Armageddon no matter how from nuclear Armageddon no matter how nuclear war starts it ends with everyone nuclear war starts it ends with everyone nuclear war starts it ends with everyone dead the following is a conversation dead the following is a conversation dead the following is a conversation with Annie Jacobson an investigative

with Annie Jacobson an investigative with Annie Jacobson an investigative journalist polit surprise finalist and journalist polit surprise finalist and journalist polit surprise finalist and author of several amazing books on war author of several amazing books on war author of several amazing books on war weapons government secrecy and National weapons government secrecy and National weapons government secrecy and National Security including the books titled Area Security including the books titled Area Security including the books titled Area 51 Operation Paperclip the pentagon's 51 Operation Paperclip the pentagon's 51 Operation Paperclip the pentagon's brain phenomena surprise kill vanish and brain phenomena surprise kill vanish and brain phenomena surprise kill vanish and her new book nuclear her new book nuclear her new book nuclear war this is Alex Freedman podcast to war this is Alex Freedman podcast to war this is Alex Freedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's Annie here's Annie here's Annie Jacobson let's start with a an immensely Jacobson let's start with a an immensely Jacobson let's start with a an immensely dark topic nuclear war how many people dark topic nuclear war how many people dark topic nuclear war how many people would a nuclear war between the United would a nuclear war between the United would a nuclear war between the United States and Russia kill so I'm coming States and Russia kill so I'm coming States and Russia kill so I'm coming back at you with a very dark answer and back at you with a very dark answer and back at you with a very dark answer and a very big a very big a very big number and that number is 5 billion number and that number is 5 billion number and that number is 5 billion people you go second by second minute by people you go second by second minute by people you go second by second minute by minute hour by hour what would minute hour by hour what would minute hour by hour what would happen if the nuclear war happen if the nuclear war happen if the nuclear war started so uh there's a lot of angles started so uh there's a lot of angles started so uh there's a lot of angles from which I would love to talk to you from which I would love to talk to you from which I would love to talk to you about this at first how would the deaths about this at first how would the deaths about this at first how would the deaths happen in the short term and the long happen in the short term and the long happen in the short term and the long term so to start off the reason I wrote term so to start off the reason I wrote term so to start off the reason I wrote the book is so that readers like you the book is so that readers like you the book is so that readers like you could see in appalling detail just how

could see in appalling detail just how could see in appalling detail just how horrific nuclear war would be and as you horrific nuclear war would be and as you horrific nuclear war would be and as you said second by second minute by wi said second by second minute by wi said second by second minute by wi minute the book covers nuclear launch to minute the book covers nuclear launch to minute the book covers nuclear launch to nuclear winter I purposely don't get nuclear winter I purposely don't get nuclear winter I purposely don't get into the politics that lead up to that into the politics that lead up to that into the politics that lead up to that or the National Security Maneuvers or or the National Security Maneuvers or or the National Security Maneuvers or the posturing or of that I just want the posturing or of that I just want the posturing or of that I just want people to know nuclear war is insane and people to know nuclear war is insane and people to know nuclear war is insane and every Source I interviewed for this book every Source I interviewed for this book every Source I interviewed for this book from Secretary of Defense you know all from Secretary of Defense you know all from Secretary of Defense you know all retired nuclear subforce commander retired nuclear subforce commander retired nuclear subforce commander stratcom commander FEMA director except stratcom commander FEMA director except stratcom commander FEMA director except on and on and on nuclear weapons on and on and on nuclear weapons on and on and on nuclear weapons Engineers they all shared with me the Engineers they all shared with me the Engineers they all shared with me the common denominator that nuclear war is common denominator that nuclear war is common denominator that nuclear war is insane you know first million then tens insane you know first million then tens insane you know first million then tens of millions then hundreds of millions of of millions then hundreds of millions of of millions then hundreds of millions of people will die in the first 72 minutes people will die in the first 72 minutes people will die in the first 72 minutes of a nuclear war and then comes nuclear of a nuclear war and then comes nuclear of a nuclear war and then comes nuclear wi winter where the billions happen from wi winter where the billions happen from wi winter where the billions happen from starvation and so the shock power of all starvation and so the shock power of all starvation and so the shock power of all of this is of this is of this is meant for each and every one of us to meant for each and every one of us to meant for each and every one of us to say wait what this actually exists say wait what this actually exists say wait what this actually exists behind the veil of National Security and behind the veil of National Security and behind the veil of National Security and I don't know you know most people do not I don't know you know most people do not I don't know you know most people do not think about nuclear war on a daily basis think about nuclear war on a daily basis think about nuclear war on a daily basis and yet hundreds of thousands of people and yet hundreds of thousands of people and yet hundreds of thousands of people in the nuclear command and control are in the nuclear command and control are in the nuclear command and control are at the ready in the event it happens but

at the ready in the event it happens but at the ready in the event it happens but it doesn't take too many people to start it doesn't take too many people to start it doesn't take too many people to start one in the words of Richard Garwin who one in the words of Richard Garwin who one in the words of Richard Garwin who was the nuclear weapons engineer who was the nuclear weapons engineer who was the nuclear weapons engineer who drew the plans for the ivy Mike drew the plans for the ivy Mike drew the plans for the ivy Mike thermonuclear bomb the first thermonuclear bomb the first thermonuclear bomb the first thermonuclear bomb ever exploded thermonuclear bomb ever exploded thermonuclear bomb ever exploded 1952 Garwin shared with me his opinion 1952 Garwin shared with me his opinion 1952 Garwin shared with me his opinion that all it takes is one nistic madman that all it takes is one nistic madman that all it takes is one nistic madman with a nuclear Arsenal to start a with a nuclear Arsenal to start a with a nuclear Arsenal to start a nuclear war and that's how I begin the nuclear war and that's how I begin the nuclear war and that's how I begin the scenario what are the different ways it scenario what are the different ways it scenario what are the different ways it could start like literally who presses a could start like literally who presses a could start like literally who presses a button and what does it take to press a button and what does it take to press a button and what does it take to press a button so the way it starts is in space button so the way it starts is in space button so the way it starts is in space meaning the US defense department has a meaning the US defense department has a meaning the US defense department has a early warning early warning early warning system and the system in space is called system and the system in space is called system and the system in space is called cbers a constellation of satellites that cbers a constellation of satellites that cbers a constellation of satellites that is keeping an eye on all of America's is keeping an eye on all of America's is keeping an eye on all of America's enemies so that the moment an ICBM enemies so that the moment an ICBM enemies so that the moment an ICBM launches the satellite in space and I'm launches the satellite in space and I'm launches the satellite in space and I'm talking about on10th of the way to the talking about on10th of the way to the talking about on10th of the way to the Moon that's how powerful these Moon that's how powerful these Moon that's how powerful these satellites are in satellites are in satellites are in geosync they see the hot rod rocket geosync they see the hot rod rocket geosync they see the hot rod rocket exhaust on the exhaust on the exhaust on the ICBM in a fraction of a second after it ICBM in a fraction of a second after it ICBM in a fraction of a second after it launches a fraction of a launches a fraction of a launches a fraction of a second and so there begins this second and so there begins this second and so there begins this horrifying horrifying horrifying policy called launch on warning right

policy called launch on warning right policy called launch on warning right and that's the US Counterattack and that's the US Counterattack and that's the US Counterattack meaning the reason that the United meaning the reason that the United meaning the reason that the United States is so ferociously watching for a States is so ferociously watching for a States is so ferociously watching for a nuclear launch somewhere around the nuclear launch somewhere around the nuclear launch somewhere around the globe is so that globe is so that globe is so that the nuclear command and control system the nuclear command and control system the nuclear command and control system in the US can move into action to in the US can move into action to in the US can move into action to immediately make a Counter Strike immediately make a Counter Strike immediately make a Counter Strike because we have that policy launch on because we have that policy launch on because we have that policy launch on warning which is exactly like it says it warning which is exactly like it says it warning which is exactly like it says it means the United States will not wait to means the United States will not wait to means the United States will not wait to absorb a nuclear attack it will launch absorb a nuclear attack it will launch absorb a nuclear attack it will launch nuclear weapons in response nuclear weapons in response nuclear weapons in response before the bomb actually hits so the before the bomb actually hits so the before the bomb actually hits so the president as part of the launch on president as part of the launch on president as part of the launch on warning policy has 6 warning policy has 6 warning policy has 6 minutes I guess can't launch for 6 minutes I guess can't launch for 6 minutes I guess can't launch for 6 minutes but at 6 Minute mark from that minutes but at 6 Minute mark from that minutes but at 6 Minute mark from that first first first warning the president warning the president warning the president can launch and that was one of the most can launch and that was one of the most can launch and that was one of the most remarkable details to really nail down remarkable details to really nail down remarkable details to really nail down for this book when I was reporting this for this book when I was reporting this for this book when I was reporting this book and talking to Secretary of book and talking to Secretary of book and talking to Secretary of defenses for example who are the people defenses for example who are the people defenses for example who are the people who advise the president on this matter who advise the president on this matter who advise the president on this matter right you say to yourself wait a minute right you say to yourself wait a minute right you say to yourself wait a minute how could that possibly be and so let's how could that possibly be and so let's how could that possibly be and so let's unpack that right so in addition to the unpack that right so in addition to the unpack that right so in addition to the launch on warning concept there's this launch on warning concept there's this launch on warning concept there's this other insane concept called sole other insane concept called sole other insane concept called sole presidential Authority and you might presidential Authority and you might presidential Authority and you might think in a democracy that's impossible

think in a democracy that's impossible think in a democracy that's impossible right you can't just start a war well right you can't just start a war well right you can't just start a war well you can just start a nuclear war if you can just start a nuclear war if you can just start a nuclear war if you're the commander-in-chief the you're the commander-in-chief the you're the commander-in-chief the president of the United States in fact president of the United States in fact president of the United States in fact you're the only one who can do that and you're the only one who can do that and you're the only one who can do that and we can get into later why that exists I we can get into later why that exists I we can get into later why that exists I was able to get the origin story of that was able to get the origin story of that was able to get the origin story of that concept from Los Alamos they concept from Los Alamos they concept from Los Alamos they Declassified it for the book um but the Declassified it for the book um but the Declassified it for the book um but the idea behind that is that nuclear war idea behind that is that nuclear war idea behind that is that nuclear war will unfold so fast only one person can will unfold so fast only one person can will unfold so fast only one person can be in charge the president he asks be in charge the president he asks be in charge the president he asks permission of no one not the Secretary permission of no one not the Secretary permission of no one not the Secretary of Defense not the chairman of the Joint of Defense not the chairman of the Joint of Defense not the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff not the US Congress so Chiefs of Staff not the US Congress so Chiefs of Staff not the US Congress so built into that is this extraordinary built into that is this extraordinary built into that is this extraordinary speed you talk about the six-minute speed you talk about the six-minute speed you talk about the six-minute window and some people say oh that's window and some people say oh that's window and some people say oh that's ridiculous how do we know that ridiculous how do we know that ridiculous how do we know that six-minute window well here's the best six-minute window well here's the best six-minute window well here's the best sort of you know hitting the nail on the sort of you know hitting the nail on the sort of you know hitting the nail on the head statement I can give you which is head statement I can give you which is head statement I can give you which is in President Reagan's Memoirs he refers in President Reagan's Memoirs he refers in President Reagan's Memoirs he refers to this six-minute window and he says he to this six-minute window and he says he to this six-minute window and he says he he calls it irrational which it is he he calls it irrational which it is he he calls it irrational which it is he says how can anyone make a decision to says how can anyone make a decision to says how can anyone make a decision to launch nuclear weapons based on a blip launch nuclear weapons based on a blip launch nuclear weapons based on a blip on a radar scope his on a radar scope his on a radar scope his words to unleash Armageddon and yet that words to unleash Armageddon and yet that words to unleash Armageddon and yet that is the reality behind nuclear war just is the reality behind nuclear war just is the reality behind nuclear war just imagine sitting there one imagine sitting there one imagine sitting there one person because a president is a human person because a president is a human person because a president is a human being sitting there just got the warning

being sitting there just got the warning being sitting there just got the warning that Russia that Russia that Russia launched you have six launched you have six launched you have six minutes you know I I meditate on my minutes you know I I meditate on my minutes you know I I meditate on my immortality every day and here you would immortality every day and here you would immortality every day and here you would be sitting and meditating contemplating be sitting and meditating contemplating be sitting and meditating contemplating not just your own mortality but the not just your own mortality but the not just your own mortality but the mortality of all the people you know mortality of all the people you know mortality of all the people you know loved ones just imagining like what what loved ones just imagining like what what loved ones just imagining like what what would be going through my head is all would be going through my head is all would be going through my head is all the people I know in the people I know in the people I know in love like personally and knowing that love like personally and knowing that love like personally and knowing that there'll be no more most likely and if there'll be no more most likely and if there'll be no more most likely and if they somehow they somehow they somehow survive they will be suffering and will survive they will be suffering and will survive they will be suffering and will eventually eventually eventually die I guess the question that kept die I guess the question that kept die I guess the question that kept coming up is how do we stop this is it coming up is how do we stop this is it coming up is how do we stop this is it inevitable that it's going to be inevitable that it's going to be inevitable that it's going to be escalated to a full-on nuclear war that escalated to a full-on nuclear war that escalated to a full-on nuclear war that destroys everything and it seems like it destroys everything and it seems like it destroys everything and it seems like it it will be it's inevitable in the it will be it's inevitable in the it will be it's inevitable in the position of the president it's almost position of the president it's almost position of the president it's almost inevitable that they have to respond I inevitable that they have to respond I inevitable that they have to respond I mean one of the things I found shocking mean one of the things I found shocking mean one of the things I found shocking was how little apparently most was how little apparently most was how little apparently most presidents know about the responsibility presidents know about the responsibility presidents know about the responsibility that literally lays at their feet right that literally lays at their feet right that literally lays at their feet right so you may think through this six-minute so you may think through this six-minute so you may think through this six-minute window I may think through this window I may think through this window I may think through this six-minute window but what I learned six-minute window but what I learned six-minute window but what I learned like for example former Secretary of like for example former Secretary of like for example former Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta was really helpful Defense Leon Panetta was really helpful Defense Leon Panetta was really helpful in explaining this to me because before in explaining this to me because before in explaining this to me because before he was SEF he served as the um director he was SEF he served as the um director he was SEF he served as the um director of the of the of the CIA and before that he was the white

CIA and before that he was the white CIA and before that he was the white house chief of staff and so he has seen house chief of staff and so he has seen house chief of staff and so he has seen these different roles that have been so these different roles that have been so these different roles that have been so close to the president but he explained close to the president but he explained close to the president but he explained to me that when he was the white house to me that when he was the white house to me that when he was the white house chief of staff for President chief of staff for President chief of staff for President Clinton he noticed how President Clinton Clinton he noticed how President Clinton Clinton he noticed how President Clinton didn't want to ever really deal with the didn't want to ever really deal with the didn't want to ever really deal with the nuclear issue because he had so many nuclear issue because he had so many nuclear issue because he had so many other issues to deal with um and that other issues to deal with um and that other issues to deal with um and that only when Panetta became Secretary of only when Panetta became Secretary of only when Panetta became Secretary of Defense he told me did he really realize Defense he told me did he really realize Defense he told me did he really realize the weight of all of this because he the weight of all of this because he the weight of all of this because he knew he would be the person that the knew he would be the person that the knew he would be the person that the president president would turn president president would turn president president would turn to were he to be notified of a nuclear to were he to be notified of a nuclear to were he to be notified of a nuclear attack and by the way it's the launch on attack and by the way it's the launch on attack and by the way it's the launch on warning it's that it's the the ballistic warning it's that it's the the ballistic warning it's that it's the the ballistic missile seen from Outer Space by the missile seen from Outer Space by the missile seen from Outer Space by the satellite and then there also must be a satellite and then there also must be a satellite and then there also must be a second confirmation from a ground radar second confirmation from a ground radar second confirmation from a ground radar system but in that process which is just system but in that process which is just system but in that process which is just a couple minutes everyone is getting a couple minutes everyone is getting a couple minutes everyone is getting ready to notify the president and one of ready to notify the president and one of ready to notify the president and one of the first people that gets notified by the first people that gets notified by the first people that gets notified by noad or by stratcom or by nro these noad or by stratcom or by nro these noad or by stratcom or by nro these different parties that all see the early different parties that all see the early different parties that all see the early warning data one of the first peoples warning data one of the first peoples warning data one of the first peoples that's notified is the Secretary of that's notified is the Secretary of that's notified is the Secretary of Defense as well as the chairman of the Defense as well as the chairman of the Defense as well as the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff because those two Joint Chiefs of Staff because those two Joint Chiefs of Staff because those two together are going to brief the together are going to brief the together are going to brief the president about you know sir you have

president about you know sir you have president about you know sir you have six minutes to six minutes to six minutes to decide and that's where you realize the decide and that's where you realize the decide and that's where you realize the immediacy of all of this is so counter immediacy of all of this is so counter immediacy of all of this is so counter to Imagining the to Imagining the to Imagining the scenario and again all the presidents scenario and again all the presidents scenario and again all the presidents come into office I have learned come into office I have learned come into office I have learned understanding the idea that of understanding the idea that of understanding the idea that of deterrence this idea that we have these deterrence this idea that we have these deterrence this idea that we have these massive arsenals of nuclear weapons massive arsenals of nuclear weapons massive arsenals of nuclear weapons pointed at one another ready to launch pointed at one another ready to launch pointed at one another ready to launch so that we never have nuclear war but so that we never have nuclear war but so that we never have nuclear war but what we're talking about now is what if what we're talking about now is what if what we're talking about now is what if we did what if we did and what you've we did what if we did and what you've we did what if we did and what you've raised is like raised is like raised is like this really spooky eerie subtext of the this really spooky eerie subtext of the this really spooky eerie subtext of the world right now world right now world right now because many of the nuclear armed because many of the nuclear armed because many of the nuclear armed nations are in direct conflict with nations are in direct conflict with nations are in direct conflict with other nations and for the first time in other nations and for the first time in other nations and for the first time in decades nuclear threats are actually decades nuclear threats are actually decades nuclear threats are actually coming out of the coming out of the coming out of the mouths of leaders this is mouths of leaders this is mouths of leaders this is shocking so deterrence the polite shocking so deterrence the polite shocking so deterrence the polite implied assumption is that nobody will implied assumption is that nobody will implied assumption is that nobody will launch and if they did we would launch launch and if they did we would launch launch and if they did we would launch back and everybody would be dead but back and everybody would be dead but back and everybody would be dead but that assumption falls apart completely that assumption falls apart completely that assumption falls apart completely the whole philosophy of it falls apart the whole philosophy of it falls apart the whole philosophy of it falls apart once the first launch happens absolutely once the first launch happens absolutely once the first launch happens absolutely then you have six minutes to decide wait then you have six minutes to decide wait then you have six minutes to decide wait a minute are we going to hit back and a minute are we going to hit back and a minute are we going to hit back and kill everybody on Earth or do we turn

kill everybody on Earth or do we turn kill everybody on Earth or do we turn the other cheek in the most horrific way the other cheek in the most horrific way the other cheek in the most horrific way possible well when when nuclear war possible well when when nuclear war possible well when when nuclear war started there's no like battle for New started there's no like battle for New started there's no like battle for New York or battle for Moscow it's just York or battle for Moscow it's just York or battle for Moscow it's just literally it you know it was called in literally it you know it was called in literally it you know it was called in the Cold War push button War fair but in the Cold War push button War fair but in the Cold War push button War fair but in essence that is that is what it is let's essence that is that is what it is let's essence that is that is what it is let's get some numbers on the table if you get some numbers on the table if you get some numbers on the table if you don't mind right because when you're don't mind right because when you're don't mind right because when you're saying like wait a minute we're just saying like wait a minute we're just saying like wait a minute we're just hoping that it holds right let's just hoping that it holds right let's just hoping that it holds right let's just talk about Russia and the US the talk about Russia and the US the talk about Russia and the US the arsenals that are literally pointed at arsenals that are literally pointed at arsenals that are literally pointed at one another right now right so the one another right now right so the one another right now right so the United States has one 1,770 nuclear weapons deployed meaning 1,770 nuclear weapons deployed meaning those weapons could launch in as little those weapons could launch in as little those weapons could launch in as little as 60 seconds and up to a couple minutes as 60 seconds and up to a couple minutes as 60 seconds and up to a couple minutes some of them on the bombers might take some of them on the bombers might take some of them on the bombers might take an hour or so Russia has an hour or so Russia has an hour or so Russia has 1,674 deployed nuclear weapons same 1,674 deployed nuclear weapons same 1,674 deployed nuclear weapons same scenario their weapon systems are on par scenario their weapon systems are on par scenario their weapon systems are on par with with with ours that's not to mention the 12,5 00 ours that's not to mention the 12,5 00 ours that's not to mention the 12,5 00 nuclear weapons amongst the nine nuclear nuclear weapons amongst the nine nuclear nuclear weapons amongst the nine nuclear armed Nations but when you think about armed Nations but when you think about armed Nations but when you think about those kind of arsenals of just between those kind of arsenals of just between those kind of arsenals of just between the United States and Russia you real the United States and Russia you real the United States and Russia you real and you realize everything can be and you realize everything can be and you realize everything can be launched in seconds and minutes then you launched in seconds and minutes then you launched in seconds and minutes then you realize the madness of Matt that this realize the madness of Matt that this realize the madness of Matt that this idea that no one would launch because it idea that no one would launch because it idea that no one would launch because it would assure everyone's destruction yes

would assure everyone's destruction yes would assure everyone's destruction yes but what if someone did and in my but what if someone did and in my but what if someone did and in my interviews with scores of top tier interviews with scores of top tier interviews with scores of top tier National Security advisers people who National Security advisers people who National Security advisers people who advise the president people who are advise the president people who are advise the president people who are responsible for these decisions if they responsible for these decisions if they responsible for these decisions if they had to be made every single one of them had to be made every single one of them had to be made every single one of them said it could happen they didn't say said it could happen they didn't say said it could happen they didn't say this would never this would never this would never happen and so the happen and so the happen and so the idea is worth thinking about idea is worth thinking about idea is worth thinking about because I believe that it pulls back the because I believe that it pulls back the because I believe that it pulls back the veil on veil on veil on on a fundamental security that if on a fundamental security that if on a fundamental security that if someone were to use a tactical nuclear someone were to use a tactical nuclear someone were to use a tactical nuclear weapon oh well it's just an weapon oh well it's just an weapon oh well it's just an escalation it's far more than escalation it's far more than escalation it's far more than that so to you the use of a tactical that so to you the use of a tactical that so to you the use of a tactical nuclear weapon maybe you can draw the nuclear weapon maybe you can draw the nuclear weapon maybe you can draw the line between a tactical and a strategic line between a tactical and a strategic line between a tactical and a strategic nuclear weapon that could be a catalyst nuclear weapon that could be a catalyst nuclear weapon that could be a catalyst like that's a very difficult thing to like that's a very difficult thing to like that's a very difficult thing to walk back from oh my God almost walk back from oh my God almost walk back from oh my God almost certainly and again any every person in certainly and again any every person in certainly and again any every person in the National Security environment tells the National Security environment tells the National Security environment tells we we'll agree with that right certainly we we'll agree with that right certainly we we'll agree with that right certainly on the American side um strategic on the American side um strategic on the American side um strategic weapons those are like big Weapons weapons those are like big Weapons weapons those are like big Weapons Systems the America has a nuclear Triad Systems the America has a nuclear Triad Systems the America has a nuclear Triad we have our icbms which are The Silo we have our icbms which are The Silo we have our icbms which are The Silo based missiles that have a nuclear based missiles that have a nuclear based missiles that have a nuclear warhead in the nose cone and they can warhead in the nose cone and they can warhead in the nose cone and they can get from one continent to the other in get from one continent to the other in get from one continent to the other in roughly 30 minutes then we have our roughly 30 minutes then we have our roughly 30 minutes then we have our bombers b52s and b2s that are nuclear

bombers b52s and b2s that are nuclear bombers b52s and b2s that are nuclear capable um those take travel time to get capable um those take travel time to get capable um those take travel time to get to another continent those can also be to another continent those can also be to another continent those can also be recalled the icbms cannot be recalled or recalled the icbms cannot be recalled or recalled the icbms cannot be recalled or redirected once launched that one is a redirected once launched that one is a redirected once launched that one is a particularly terrifying one so land particularly terrifying one so land particularly terrifying one so land launched missiles Rockets with a warhead launched missiles Rockets with a warhead launched missiles Rockets with a warhead can't be recalled cannot be recalled or can't be recalled cannot be recalled or can't be recalled cannot be recalled or redirected and speaking of how little redirected and speaking of how little redirected and speaking of how little the presidents generally know as we were the presidents generally know as we were the presidents generally know as we were talking a moment ago President Reagan in talking a moment ago President Reagan in talking a moment ago President Reagan in 198 3 gave a press conference where he 198 3 gave a press conference where he 198 3 gave a press conference where he misstated that submarine launched misstated that submarine launched misstated that submarine launched ballistic missiles could be recalled ballistic missiles could be recalled ballistic missiles could be recalled they cannot be recalled so that gives they cannot be recalled so that gives they cannot be recalled so that gives you here's the guy in charge of the you here's the guy in charge of the you here's the guy in charge of the Arsenal if it has to get let loose and Arsenal if it has to get let loose and Arsenal if it has to get let loose and he doesn't even know that they cannot be he doesn't even know that they cannot be he doesn't even know that they cannot be recalled so this is the kind of recalled so this is the kind of recalled so this is the kind of misinformation and disinformation and misinformation and disinformation and misinformation and disinformation and and you know un Secretary General and you know un Secretary General and you know un Secretary General Antonio gutterz recently said when he Antonio gutterz recently said when he Antonio gutterz recently said when he was talking about the conflicts Rising was talking about the conflicts Rising was talking about the conflicts Rising around the world he said We Are One around the world he said We Are One around the world he said We Are One misunderstanding one miscalculation away misunderstanding one miscalculation away misunderstanding one miscalculation away from nuclear from nuclear from nuclear Armageddon so just to sort of Linger on Armageddon so just to sort of Linger on Armageddon so just to sort of Linger on the previous point of tactical nukes so the previous point of tactical nukes so the previous point of tactical nukes so you're describing strategic nukes land you're describing strategic nukes land you're describing strategic nukes land launched bombers submarine launched what launched bombers submarine launched what launched bombers submarine launched what are tactical nukes so that's the Triad are tactical nukes so that's the Triad are tactical nukes so that's the Triad right and we have the Triad and Russia right and we have the Triad and Russia right and we have the Triad and Russia has the Triad has the Triad has the Triad tactical nuclear weapons are smaller

tactical nuclear weapons are smaller tactical nuclear weapons are smaller Warheads that were designed to be used Warheads that were designed to be used Warheads that were designed to be used in battle and that is what Russia is in battle and that is what Russia is in battle and that is what Russia is sort of threatening to use right now sort of threatening to use right now sort of threatening to use right now that is this idea that you would you that is this idea that you would you that is this idea that you would you know make a decision on the battlefield know make a decision on the battlefield know make a decision on the battlefield in an operational environment to use a in an operational environment to use a in an operational environment to use a tactical nuclear weapon you're just sort tactical nuclear weapon you're just sort tactical nuclear weapon you're just sort of upping the ante but the problem is of upping the ante but the problem is of upping the ante but the problem is that all treaties are based on this idea that all treaties are based on this idea that all treaties are based on this idea of no nuclear use right you cannot cross of no nuclear use right you cannot cross of no nuclear use right you cannot cross that line and so the what would happen that line and so the what would happen that line and so the what would happen if the line is crossed is so devastating if the line is crossed is so devastating if the line is crossed is so devastating to even to even to even consider I think that the conversation consider I think that the conversation consider I think that the conversation is well worth having among everyone you is well worth having among everyone you is well worth having among everyone you know that is in a power of know that is in a power of know that is in a power of position how as you know the UN position how as you know the UN position how as you know the UN Secretary General said this is madness Secretary General said this is madness Secretary General said this is madness right this is madness we must come back right this is madness we must come back right this is madness we must come back from the brink we are at the brink uh can we talk about some other brink uh can we talk about some other numbers so you mentioned the number of numbers so you mentioned the number of numbers so you mentioned the number of Warhead so land launched how long does Warhead so land launched how long does Warhead so land launched how long does it take to it take to it take to travel across the travel across the travel across the ocean from the United States to to ocean from the United States to to ocean from the United States to to Russia from Russia to the United States Russia from Russia to the United States Russia from Russia to the United States from China to the United States uh how from China to the United States uh how from China to the United States uh how approximately how long when I was approximately how long when I was approximately how long when I was writing an earlier book on DARPA the the writing an earlier book on DARPA the the writing an earlier book on DARPA the the Pentagon science agency Pentagon science agency Pentagon science agency um I went to a

um I went to a um I went to a library down in San Diego called the gel library down in San Diego called the gel library down in San Diego called the gel library to look at herb York's papers library to look at herb York's papers library to look at herb York's papers herb York was the first Chief scientist herb York was the first Chief scientist herb York was the first Chief scientist for the Pentagon for DARPA then called for the Pentagon for DARPA then called for the Pentagon for DARPA then called arpa and I had been trying to get the arpa and I had been trying to get the arpa and I had been trying to get the number from the various agencies that be number from the various agencies that be number from the various agencies that be to answer your like what is the exact to answer your like what is the exact to answer your like what is the exact number and how do we know it and like number and how do we know it and like number and how do we know it and like does it change and you know as does it change and you know as does it change and you know as technology advances does that number technology advances does that number technology advances does that number reduce all these kinds of questions and reduce all these kinds of questions and reduce all these kinds of questions and no one will answer that question on an no one will answer that question on an no one will answer that question on an official level and so much to my official level and so much to my official level and so much to my surprise I found the answer in herb surprise I found the answer in herb surprise I found the answer in herb York's like Dusty Archive of papers and York's like Dusty Archive of papers and York's like Dusty Archive of papers and this is information that was jealously this is information that was jealously this is information that was jealously guarded I mean it didn't it was not it's guarded I mean it didn't it was not it's guarded I mean it didn't it was not it's not necessarily classified but it not necessarily classified but it not necessarily classified but it certainly wasn't out there and I felt certainly wasn't out there and I felt certainly wasn't out there and I felt like wow herb York left these behind for like wow herb York left these behind for like wow herb York left these behind for someone like me to find right and what someone like me to find right and what someone like me to find right and what the process of he wanted to know the the process of he wanted to know the the process of he wanted to know the answer to your question and as the guy answer to your question and as the guy answer to your question and as the guy in charge of it all so he hired this in charge of it all so he hired this in charge of it all so he hired this group of scientists who then and still group of scientists who then and still group of scientists who then and still are in many ways like the Pent the are in many ways like the Pent the are in many ways like the Pent the Supermen scientists of the Pentagon and Supermen scientists of the Pentagon and Supermen scientists of the Pentagon and they're called the Jason scientists many they're called the Jason scientists many they're called the Jason scientists many conspiracies about them abound I conspiracies about them abound I conspiracies about them abound I interviewed their founder and have interviewed their founder and have interviewed their founder and have interviewed many of them but they interviewed many of them but they interviewed many of them but they whittled the number down to seconds whittled the number down to seconds whittled the number down to seconds okay specifically for her York and it okay specifically for her York and it okay specifically for her York and it goes like this cuz this is where my jaw goes like this cuz this is where my jaw goes like this cuz this is where my jaw dropped and I went wow okay so 26

dropped and I went wow okay so 26 dropped and I went wow okay so 26 minutes and 40 seconds from a Launchpad minutes and 40 seconds from a Launchpad minutes and 40 seconds from a Launchpad in the Soviet Union to the east coast in the Soviet Union to the east coast in the Soviet Union to the east coast and it happens in three phases very and it happens in three phases very and it happens in three phases very simple and interesting to remember simple and interesting to remember simple and interesting to remember because then suddenly all of this makes because then suddenly all of this makes because then suddenly all of this makes more sense boost phase midcourse phase more sense boost phase midcourse phase more sense boost phase midcourse phase and then terminal phase okay boost Phase and then terminal phase okay boost Phase and then terminal phase okay boost Phase 5 minutes that's when the rocket 5 minutes that's when the rocket 5 minutes that's when the rocket launches so you just imagine a rocket launches so you just imagine a rocket launches so you just imagine a rocket going off the Launchpad and the fire going off the Launchpad and the fire going off the Launchpad and the fire beneath it again that's why the beneath it again that's why the beneath it again that's why the satellites can see it okay now it's satellites can see it okay now it's satellites can see it okay now it's becoming visual now it makes sense to me becoming visual now it makes sense to me becoming visual now it makes sense to me right five minutes and that's where the right five minutes and that's where the right five minutes and that's where the rocket can be tracked and then Imagine rocket can be tracked and then Imagine rocket can be tracked and then Imagine Learning wait a minute after 5 minutes Learning wait a minute after 5 minutes Learning wait a minute after 5 minutes the rocket can no longer be seen from the rocket can no longer be seen from the rocket can no longer be seen from space the satellite can only see the hot space the satellite can only see the hot space the satellite can only see the hot rocket exhaust then the missile enters rocket exhaust then the missile enters rocket exhaust then the missile enters its midc phase 20 20 minutes and that's its midc phase 20 20 minutes and that's its midc phase 20 20 minutes and that's the ballistic part of it where it's kind the ballistic part of it where it's kind the ballistic part of it where it's kind of flying up at between 500 and 700 of flying up at between 500 and 700 of flying up at between 500 and 700 miles above the Earth and moving very miles above the Earth and moving very miles above the Earth and moving very fast and with the Earth until it gets fast and with the Earth until it gets fast and with the Earth until it gets very close to its Target and the last very close to its Target and the last very close to its Target and the last 100 seconds are terminal phase it's 100 seconds are terminal phase it's 100 seconds are terminal phase it's where the Warhead reenters the where the Warhead reenters the where the Warhead reenters the atmosphere and atmosphere and atmosphere and detonates 26 minutes and 40 seconds now detonates 26 minutes and 40 seconds now detonates 26 minutes and 40 seconds now in my scenario I open with North Korea in my scenario I open with North Korea in my scenario I open with North Korea launching a one Megaton nuclear warhead

launching a one Megaton nuclear warhead launching a one Megaton nuclear warhead at Washington DC that's the nealis at Washington DC that's the nealis at Washington DC that's the nealis madman maneuver that's the bolt out of madman maneuver that's the bolt out of madman maneuver that's the bolt out of the blue attack that everyone in the blue attack that everyone in the blue attack that everyone in Washington will tell you they're afraid Washington will tell you they're afraid Washington will tell you they're afraid of and North of and North of and North Korea is a little has a little bit Korea is a little has a little bit Korea is a little has a little bit different geography and so I had MIT different geography and so I had MIT different geography and so I had MIT Professor ameritus Ted postal do the Professor ameritus Ted postal do the Professor ameritus Ted postal do the math 33 3 minutes from a Launchpad in math 33 3 minutes from a Launchpad in math 33 3 minutes from a Launchpad in Pyongyang to the east coast of the Pyongyang to the east coast of the Pyongyang to the east coast of the United States you get the idea it's United States you get the idea it's United States you get the idea it's about 30 minutes but hopefully now that about 30 minutes but hopefully now that about 30 minutes but hopefully now that allows readers to suddenly see all this allows readers to suddenly see all this allows readers to suddenly see all this as a real you you almost see it as you as a real you you almost see it as you as a real you you almost see it as you know as poetry as terrible as that may know as poetry as terrible as that may know as poetry as terrible as that may sound you can visualize it and suddenly sound you can visualize it and suddenly sound you can visualize it and suddenly it makes sense and I think the sense it makes sense and I think the sense it makes sense and I think the sense making part of it is really what I'm making part of it is really what I'm making part of it is really what I'm after in this book because a want people after in this book because a want people after in this book because a want people to understand on the the one hand it's to understand on the the one hand it's to understand on the the one hand it's incredibly simple it's just the people incredibly simple it's just the people incredibly simple it's just the people that have made it so complicated but that have made it so complicated but that have made it so complicated but it's one of those things that can change it's one of those things that can change it's one of those things that can change all of world history in a matter of all of world history in a matter of all of world history in a matter of minutes we just don't as a human minutes we just don't as a human minutes we just don't as a human civilization have experience with civilization have experience with civilization have experience with that that that but it doesn't mean it'll never happen but it doesn't mean it'll never happen but it doesn't mean it'll never happen it can happen just like that I mean I it can happen just like that I mean I it can happen just like that I mean I think what you're after and I couldn't think what you're after and I couldn't think what you're after and I couldn't agree more with is agree more with is agree more with is like why is why is like why is why is like why is why is this fundamentally this fundamentally this fundamentally annihilating system a system of mass

annihilating system a system of mass annihilating system a system of mass genocide as John rubel you know in the genocide as John rubel you know in the genocide as John rubel you know in the book refers to it why is it still book refers to it why is it still book refers to it why is it still exist you know we've had 75 years since exist you know we've had 75 years since exist you know we've had 75 years since there have been two superpowers with the there have been two superpowers with the there have been two superpowers with the nuclear bomb um so that threat has been nuclear bomb um so that threat has been nuclear bomb um so that threat has been there for 75 years and we have managed there for 75 years and we have managed there for 75 years and we have managed to stay alive one of the reasons why so to stay alive one of the reasons why so to stay alive one of the reasons why so many of the sources in the book agreed many of the sources in the book agreed many of the sources in the book agreed to talk to me people who had not to talk to me people who had not to talk to me people who had not previously gone on the record about all previously gone on the record about all previously gone on the record about all of this was because they are now of this was because they are now of this was because they are now approaching the end of their lives they approaching the end of their lives they approaching the end of their lives they spent their lives dedicated to spent their lives dedicated to spent their lives dedicated to preventing nuclear World War II MH and preventing nuclear World War II MH and preventing nuclear World War II MH and they'll be the first people to tell you they'll be the first people to tell you they'll be the first people to tell you we're closer to this as a reality than we're closer to this as a reality than we're closer to this as a reality than ever before and so on the bright the ever before and so on the bright the ever before and so on the bright the only bright side of any of this is that only bright side of any of this is that only bright side of any of this is that like the answer lies most definitely in like the answer lies most definitely in like the answer lies most definitely in communication so there's a million other communication so there's a million other communication so there's a million other questions here uh I think the details questions here uh I think the details questions here uh I think the details are fascinating and important to are fascinating and important to are fascinating and important to understand so one you also say uh understand so one you also say uh understand so one you also say uh nuclear submarines you mentioned about nuclear submarines you mentioned about nuclear submarines you mentioned about 30 minutes 20 26 33 minutes but with uh 30 minutes 20 26 33 minutes but with uh 30 minutes 20 26 33 minutes but with uh nuclear submarines that number can be nuclear submarines that number can be nuclear submarines that number can be much much lower so how long does it take much much lower so how long does it take much much lower so how long does it take for a warhead to missile to reach the for a warhead to missile to reach the for a warhead to missile to reach the east coast of the United States from a east coast of the United States from a east coast of the United States from a submarine just when you thought it was submarine just when you thought it was submarine just when you thought it was really bad yeah and then you kind of really bad yeah and then you kind of really bad yeah and then you kind of realize about the submarines I mean the

realize about the submarines I mean the realize about the submarines I mean the submarines are what are called second submarines are what are called second submarines are what are called second strike capacity right and you know it strike capacity right and you know it strike capacity right and you know it was descri submarines were described to was descri submarines were described to was descri submarines were described to me this way they are as dangerous to me this way they are as dangerous to me this way they are as dangerous to civilization and let me say a nuclear civilization and let me say a nuclear civilization and let me say a nuclear armed nuclear powered submarine is as armed nuclear powered submarine is as armed nuclear powered submarine is as dangerous to civilization as an asteroid dangerous to civilization as an asteroid dangerous to civilization as an asteroid okay they are un stoppable they are okay they are un stoppable they are okay they are un stoppable they are unlocatable the former Chief of the unlocatable the former Chief of the unlocatable the former Chief of the nuclear submarine forces Admiral Michael nuclear submarine forces Admiral Michael nuclear submarine forces Admiral Michael Connor told me it's easier to find a Connor told me it's easier to find a Connor told me it's easier to find a grapefruit sized object in space than a grapefruit sized object in space than a grapefruit sized object in space than a submarine Under the Sea okay so these submarine Under the Sea okay so these submarine Under the Sea okay so these things are like hell things are like hell things are like hell machines and they're moving around machines and they're moving around machines and they're moving around throughout the oceans ours Russia's throughout the oceans ours Russia's throughout the oceans ours Russia's China's maybe North Korea constantly and China's maybe North Korea constantly and China's maybe North Korea constantly and we now know they're sneaking up to the we now know they're sneaking up to the we now know they're sneaking up to the east and west coast of the United States east and west coast of the United States east and west coast of the United States within a couple hundred miles how do we within a couple hundred miles how do we within a couple hundred miles how do we know that why do we know that well I know that why do we know that well I know that why do we know that well I found a document inside of a budget um found a document inside of a budget um found a document inside of a budget um that the defense department was going to that the defense department was going to that the defense department was going to Congress for more money recently and Congress for more money recently and Congress for more money recently and showed maps of precisely where these showed maps of precisely where these showed maps of precisely where these submarines how close they were getting submarines how close they were getting submarines how close they were getting to the Eastern Seaboard so wait wait to the Eastern Seaboard so wait wait to the Eastern Seaboard so wait wait wait so nuclear subs are getting within wait so nuclear subs are getting within wait so nuclear subs are getting within 200 miles couple hundred miles yes they 200 miles couple hundred miles yes they 200 miles couple hundred miles yes they weren't precise on the number but when weren't precise on the number but when weren't precise on the number but when you look at the map yep and that's when you look at the map yep and that's when you look at the map yep and that's when you're talking about under 10 minutes you're talking about under 10 minutes you're talking about under 10 minutes from launch to to strike undetectable from launch to to strike undetectable from launch to to strike undetectable and they're undetectable the the map

and they're undetectable the the map and they're undetectable the the map making is done after the fact because of making is done after the fact because of making is done after the fact because of a lot of underwater surveillance systems a lot of underwater surveillance systems a lot of underwater surveillance systems that we have you know but in real time that we have you know but in real time that we have you know but in real time you cannot find a a nuclear submarine you cannot find a a nuclear submarine you cannot find a a nuclear submarine and you know just the way a submarine and you know just the way a submarine and you know just the way a submarine launches goes 150 ft below the surface launches goes 150 ft below the surface launches goes 150 ft below the surface to launch its ballistic missile I mean to launch its ballistic missile I mean to launch its ballistic missile I mean it comes out of the missile tube and it comes out of the missile tube and it comes out of the missile tube and with enough thrust that the the with enough thrust that the the with enough thrust that the the thrusters the boo they ignite outside thrusters the boo they ignite outside thrusters the boo they ignite outside the water and then they move into boost the water and then they move into boost the water and then they move into boost and so the technology involved is just and so the technology involved is just and so the technology involved is just stunning and shocking and again stunning and shocking and again stunning and shocking and again trillions of dollars spent so that we trillions of dollars spent so that we trillions of dollars spent so that we never have a nuclear war but my God what never have a nuclear war but my God what never have a nuclear war but my God what if we did as you right they're called the did as you right they're called the handmade of the handmade of the handmade of the Apocalypse what a terrifying label I Apocalypse what a terrifying label I Apocalypse what a terrifying label I mean mean mean uh you want one of the things you also uh you want one of the things you also uh you want one of the things you also write about so for the land launched write about so for the land launched write about so for the land launched ones they're presumably ones they're presumably ones they're presumably underground so the silos how long does underground so the silos how long does underground so the silos how long does it take to go from like pressing the it take to go from like pressing the it take to go from like pressing the button to them emerging from underground button to them emerging from underground button to them emerging from underground for launch and is is that part for launch and is is that part for launch and is is that part detectable or it's only the the heat so detectable or it's only the the heat so detectable or it's only the the heat so what's interesting about the silos what's interesting about the silos what's interesting about the silos America has 4 00 silos right we've had America has 4 00 silos right we've had America has 4 00 silos right we've had more um but we have 400 and they're more um but we have 400 and they're more um but we have 400 and they're underground and they're called Minutemen underground and they're called Minutemen underground and they're called Minutemen right after the Revolutionary War Heroes right after the Revolutionary War Heroes right after the Revolutionary War Heroes but the sort of joke in Washington is

but the sort of joke in Washington is but the sort of joke in Washington is they're not called Minutemen for nothing they're not called Minutemen for nothing they're not called Minutemen for nothing because they can launch in one minute because they can launch in one minute because they can launch in one minute yeah right so the president orders the yeah right so the president orders the yeah right so the president orders the launch of the icbms ICBM stands for launch of the icbms ICBM stands for launch of the icbms ICBM stands for intercontinental ballistic missile he intercontinental ballistic missile he intercontinental ballistic missile he orders the launch and they launch 60 orders the launch and they launch 60 orders the launch and they launch 60 seconds later and then they take 30 some seconds later and then they take 30 some seconds later and then they take 30 some odd minutes to get to where they're odd minutes to get to where they're odd minutes to get to where they're going the submarines take about 14 or 15 going the submarines take about 14 or 15 going the submarines take about 14 or 15 minutes from the presidential from the minutes from the presidential from the minutes from the presidential from the launch command to actually launching and launch command to actually launching and launch command to actually launching and that has to do I surmise with the that has to do I surmise with the that has to do I surmise with the location of the submarine its depth some location of the submarine its depth some location of the submarine its depth some of these things are so highly classified of these things are so highly classified of these things are so highly classified and others other details are shockingly and others other details are shockingly and others other details are shockingly available if you look deep enough or if available if you look deep enough or if available if you look deep enough or if you ask enough question questions and you ask enough question questions and you ask enough question questions and you can go from one document to the next you can go from one document to the next you can go from one document to the next to the next and really find these to the next and really find these to the next and really find these answers not to ask top secret questions answers not to ask top secret questions answers not to ask top secret questions but uh to what degree do you think the but uh to what degree do you think the but uh to what degree do you think the Russians know the locations of the silos Russians know the locations of the silos Russians know the locations of the silos in the US and vice versa Lex you can you in the US and vice versa Lex you can you in the US and vice versa Lex you can you and I can find the location of every and I can find the location of every and I can find the location of every Silo right now they're all there and Silo right now they're all there and Silo right now they're all there and before they were there on on you know before they were there on on you know before they were there on on you know Google they were there in maps because Google they were there in maps because Google they were there in maps because we're a democracy and we make these we're a democracy and we make these we're a democracy and we make these things known Okay now what's tricky is things known Okay now what's tricky is things known Okay now what's tricky is that Russia and North Korea rely upon that Russia and North Korea rely upon that Russia and North Korea rely upon what are called Road Mobile launchers what are called Road Mobile launchers what are called Road Mobile launchers right so Russia has a lot of underground right so Russia has a lot of underground right so Russia has a lot of underground silos you know all of the scenario takes silos you know all of the scenario takes silos you know all of the scenario takes you through these different facilities you through these different facilities you through these different facilities that really do exist and they're all that really do exist and they're all that really do exist and they're all sourced with how many weapons they have

sourced with how many weapons they have sourced with how many weapons they have and their launch procedures and whatnot and their launch procedures and whatnot and their launch procedures and whatnot but in addition to having um underground but in addition to having um underground but in addition to having um underground silos they have Road Mobile launchers silos they have Road Mobile launchers silos they have Road Mobile launchers and that means you just have one of and that means you just have one of and that means you just have one of these giant icbms on a 22 these giant icbms on a 22 these giant icbms on a 22 axle truck that can move stealthily axle truck that can move stealthily axle truck that can move stealthily around the country so that it can't be around the country so that it can't be around the country so that it can't be targeted by the US defense department we targeted by the US defense department we targeted by the US defense department we don't have those in America because don't have those in America because don't have those in America because presumably the average you know American presumably the average you know American presumably the average you know American isn't going to go for like the ICBM Road isn't going to go for like the ICBM Road isn't going to go for like the ICBM Road Mobile Launcher driving down the street Mobile Launcher driving down the street Mobile Launcher driving down the street in your town or city um which is why the in your town or city um which is why the in your town or city um which is why the defense department will justify we need defense department will justify we need defense department will justify we need the second strike capacity capability the second strike capacity capability the second strike capacity capability the uh submarines right because you know the uh submarines right because you know the uh submarines right because you know the I mean the wonky stuff that is worth the I mean the wonky stuff that is worth the I mean the wonky stuff that is worth looking into as a if you really dig the looking into as a if you really dig the looking into as a if you really dig the book and are like wait a minute it's all book and are like wait a minute it's all book and are like wait a minute it's all footnoted where you can learn more about footnoted where you can learn more about footnoted where you can learn more about how these systems have changed over time how these systems have changed over time how these systems have changed over time um and why more than anything it's very um and why more than anything it's very um and why more than anything it's very difficult to get out of this catch22 difficult to get out of this catch22 difficult to get out of this catch22 conundrum that you know we need nuclear conundrum that you know we need nuclear conundrum that you know we need nuclear weapons to keep us safe that is the real weapons to keep us safe that is the real weapons to keep us safe that is the real Enigma Enigma Enigma because the other guys have them right because the other guys have them right because the other guys have them right and the other guys have sort of more and the other guys have sort of more and the other guys have sort of more Sinister ways of of using them or at Sinister ways of of using them or at Sinister ways of of using them or at least that's what the nomenclature out least that's what the nomenclature out least that's what the nomenclature out of the Pentagon will always be when of the Pentagon will always be when of the Pentagon will always be when anyone tries to say we just need to anyone tries to say we just need to anyone tries to say we just need to really think about full disarmament

really think about full disarmament really think about full disarmament you've written about intelligence you've written about intelligence you've written about intelligence agencies how good are the intelligence agencies how good are the intelligence agencies how good are the intelligence agencies on this how much does CIA know agencies on this how much does CIA know agencies on this how much does CIA know about the the Russian uh the Russian about the the Russian uh the Russian about the the Russian uh the Russian launch sites and capability launch sites and capability launch sites and capability and command and control procedures and and command and control procedures and and command and control procedures and all this and vice versa I mean all of all this and vice versa I mean all of all this and vice versa I mean all of this because it's decades old is really this because it's decades old is really this because it's decades old is really well known if you go to the Federation well known if you go to the Federation well known if you go to the Federation of American scientists they have a team of American scientists they have a team of American scientists they have a team led by a guy called Hans Christensen who led by a guy called Hans Christensen who led by a guy called Hans Christensen who runs What's called the nuclear notebook runs What's called the nuclear notebook runs What's called the nuclear notebook and he and his team every year are and he and his team every year are and he and his team every year are keeping track of this number of warheads keeping track of this number of warheads keeping track of this number of warheads on these number of weapon systems and on these number of weapon systems and on these number of weapon systems and because of the treaties the different because of the treaties the different because of the treaties the different signatories to the treat all report signatories to the treat all report signatories to the treat all report these numbers and of course the these numbers and of course the these numbers and of course the different intelligence Community people different intelligence Community people different intelligence Community people are keeping track of what's being you are keeping track of what's being you are keeping track of what's being you know revealed honestly and and reported know revealed honestly and and reported know revealed honestly and and reported with transparency and what is being with transparency and what is being with transparency and what is being hidden the real issue is the new systems hidden the real issue is the new systems hidden the real issue is the new systems that Russia is working on right now um that Russia is working on right now um that Russia is working on right now um and that will lead us you know we are and that will lead us you know we are and that will lead us you know we are kind of moving into an era whereby the kind of moving into an era whereby the kind of moving into an era whereby the the threat of actually having new weapon the threat of actually having new weapon the threat of actually having new weapon systems that are nuclear capable is very systems that are nuclear capable is very systems that are nuclear capable is very real because of the escalating tensions real because of the escalating tensions real because of the escalating tensions around the world and that's where the around the world and that's where the around the world and that's where the CIA would guess is doing most of its CIA would guess is doing most of its CIA would guess is doing most of its work right now so most of your research work right now so most of your research work right now so most of your research is kind of looking at the the older is kind of looking at the the older is kind of looking at the the older versions of the system and presumably versions of the system and presumably versions of the system and presumably there's potentially secret development

there's potentially secret development there's potentially secret development of new ones hopefully which violates of new ones hopefully which violates of new ones hopefully which violates treaties so yes that is where the treaties so yes that is where the treaties so yes that is where the intelligence agencies but you know at a intelligence agencies but you know at a intelligence agencies but you know at a point it's Overkill literally and point it's Overkill literally and point it's Overkill literally and figuratively right people are up in arms figuratively right people are up in arms figuratively right people are up in arms about these Hypersonic weapons well we about these Hypersonic weapons well we about these Hypersonic weapons well we have a Hypersonic weapons program you have a Hypersonic weapons program you have a Hypersonic weapons program you know Falcon Google blackswift right this know Falcon Google blackswift right this know Falcon Google blackswift right this is loeds doing um you know we're is loeds doing um you know we're is loeds doing um you know we're DARPA exists to create the vast weapon DARPA exists to create the vast weapon DARPA exists to create the vast weapon systems of the future that is its job it systems of the future that is its job it systems of the future that is its job it has been doing that since its Creation has been doing that since its Creation has been doing that since its Creation in in in 1957 I would never believe that we 1957 I would never believe that we 1957 I would never believe that we aren't ahead of everyone aren't ahead of everyone aren't ahead of everyone call me you know over informed or naive call me you know over informed or naive call me you know over informed or naive one or the other uh that would be my one or the other uh that would be my one or the other uh that would be my position because DARPA works from the position because DARPA works from the position because DARPA works from the chicken or the egg scenario you know chicken or the egg scenario you know chicken or the egg scenario you know that like once once you learn about that like once once you learn about that like once once you learn about something once you learn Russia's something once you learn Russia's something once you learn Russia's created this you know Typhoon Submarine created this you know Typhoon Submarine created this you know Typhoon Submarine which may or may not you know be viable which may or may not you know be viable which may or may not you know be viable it's too late if you don't already have it's too late if you don't already have it's too late if you don't already have one we probably talk about Dara a little one we probably talk about Dara a little one we probably talk about Dara a little bit uh one of the things that makes me bit uh one of the things that makes me bit uh one of the things that makes me sad about locki many things makes me sad sad about locki many things makes me sad sad about locki many things makes me sad about locked um but one of the things is about locked um but one of the things is about locked um but one of the things is because it's very top secret you can't because it's very top secret you can't because it's very top secret you can't show off all the incredible engineering show off all the incredible engineering show off all the incredible engineering going going on there the other thing going going on there the other thing going going on there the other thing that's more philosophical DARPA also is that's more philosophical DARPA also is that's more philosophical DARPA also is that war seems to stimulate most of our that war seems to stimulate most of our that war seems to stimulate most of our not most but a large percent of our not most but a large percent of our not most but a large percent of our exciting Innovation and engineering and

exciting Innovation and engineering and exciting Innovation and engineering and so but that's also the pragmatic fact of so but that's also the pragmatic fact of so but that's also the pragmatic fact of life on Earth is that uh the risk of life on Earth is that uh the risk of life on Earth is that uh the risk of Annihilation is is a great motivator for Annihilation is is a great motivator for Annihilation is is a great motivator for for for Innovation for engineering and for for Innovation for engineering and for for Innovation for engineering and so on but yes I would not discount uh so on but yes I would not discount uh so on but yes I would not discount uh the United States in its ability to the United States in its ability to the United States in its ability to build the weapons of the future nuclear build the weapons of the future nuclear build the weapons of the future nuclear included again included again included again terrifying can you tell me about the terrifying can you tell me about the terrifying can you tell me about the nuclear football as it's called I think nuclear football as it's called I think nuclear football as it's called I think Americans are familiar with the football Americans are familiar with the football Americans are familiar with the football at least anyone who sort of you know at least anyone who sort of you know at least anyone who sort of you know follows National Security Concepts follows National Security Concepts follows National Security Concepts because it's a Satchel it's a leather because it's a Satchel it's a leather because it's a Satchel it's a leather satchel that is always with a military satchel that is always with a military satchel that is always with a military aid in Secret Service nomenclature aid in Secret Service nomenclature aid in Secret Service nomenclature that's the mill Aid and he's trailing that's the mill Aid and he's trailing that's the mill Aid and he's trailing around the president 247 365 days a year around the president 247 365 days a year around the president 247 365 days a year and also the vice president by the way and also the vice president by the way and also the vice president by the way with the ability to launch nuclear war with the ability to launch nuclear war with the ability to launch nuclear war in that six-minute window all the time in that six-minute window all the time in that six-minute window all the time okay um that is also called the football okay um that is also called the football okay um that is also called the football and it's always with the president to and it's always with the president to and it's always with the president to report this part of the book I report this part of the book I report this part of the book I interviewed a lot of people in the interviewed a lot of people in the interviewed a lot of people in the Secret Service that are with the Secret Service that are with the Secret Service that are with the president and talk about this and the president and talk about this and the president and talk about this and the director of The Secret Service a guy director of The Secret Service a guy director of The Secret Service a guy called Lou merletti told me a story that called Lou merletti told me a story that called Lou merletti told me a story that I just really found fascinating um he I just really found fascinating um he I just really found fascinating um he was also in charge of the president's was also in charge of the president's was also in charge of the president's detail President Clinton This was um detail President Clinton This was um detail President Clinton This was um before he was director of The Secret

before he was director of The Secret before he was director of The Secret Service and he told me the story about Service and he told me the story about Service and he told me the story about how he said the football is with the how he said the football is with the how he said the football is with the president at all times S period okay president at all times S period okay president at all times S period okay they were traveling to Syria and Clinton they were traveling to Syria and Clinton they were traveling to Syria and Clinton was meeting with President Assad and was meeting with President Assad and was meeting with President Assad and they got into an they got into an they got into an elevator uh Clinton and the Secret elevator uh Clinton and the Secret elevator uh Clinton and the Secret Service team and one of Assad's guys was Service team and one of Assad's guys was Service team and one of Assad's guys was like no you know like about the mill Aid like no you know like about the mill Aid like no you know like about the mill Aid and Lou said it was like a standoff and Lou said it was like a standoff and Lou said it was like a standoff because there was no way they were not because there was no way they were not because there was no way they were not going to have the president with his going to have the president with his going to have the president with his football in an football in an football in an elevator and it kind of sums up for me elevator and it kind of sums up for me elevator and it kind of sums up for me anyways you you realize what goes into anyways you you realize what goes into anyways you you realize what goes into every single one of these decisions you every single one of these decisions you every single one of these decisions you realize the massive system of systems realize the massive system of systems realize the massive system of systems behind every item you might just see in behind every item you might just see in behind every item you might just see in in passing and glancing on the news as in passing and glancing on the news as in passing and glancing on the news as you see the M Aid carrying that Satchel you see the M Aid carrying that Satchel you see the M Aid carrying that Satchel well what's in that Satchel I really dug well what's in that Satchel I really dug well what's in that Satchel I really dug into that to report this book what is in into that to report this book what is in into that to report this book what is in that s okay so well okay first of all that s okay so well okay first of all that s okay so well okay first of all that is you know people are say it's that is you know people are say it's that is you know people are say it's incredibly classified I mean people talk incredibly classified I mean people talk incredibly classified I mean people talk about UFOs it's incredibly I mean come about UFOs it's incredibly I mean come about UFOs it's incredibly I mean come on guys that is nothing burger right you on guys that is nothing burger right you on guys that is nothing burger right you want to know what's really classified want to know what's really classified want to know what's really classified what's in that football right what's in what's in that football right what's in what's in that football right what's in that Satchel but the peed presidential that Satchel but the peed presidential that Satchel but the peed presidential emergency action directives right those emergency action directives right those emergency action directives right those have never been leaked no one knows what have never been leaked no one knows what have never been leaked no one knows what they are what we do know from one of the

they are what we do know from one of the they are what we do know from one of the mill AIDS who spoke on the record a guy mill AIDS who spoke on the record a guy mill AIDS who spoke on the record a guy called Buzz Patterson he just describes called Buzz Patterson he just describes called Buzz Patterson he just describes the president's orders right so if a the president's orders right so if a the president's orders right so if a nuclear war has begun if the president nuclear war has begun if the president nuclear war has begun if the president has been told there are nuclear missiles has been told there are nuclear missiles has been told there are nuclear missiles one or more coming at the United States one or more coming at the United States one or more coming at the United States you have to launch in a Counterattack you have to launch in a Counterattack you have to launch in a Counterattack right the red clock is ticking you have right the red clock is ticking you have right the red clock is ticking you have to get the blue in Impact clock ticking to get the blue in Impact clock ticking to get the blue in Impact clock ticking um he needs to look at this list to um he needs to look at this list to um he needs to look at this list to decide what targets to strike and what decide what targets to strike and what decide what targets to strike and what weapon systems to use and that is what weapon systems to use and that is what weapon systems to use and that is what is on according to Buzz Patterson a is on according to Buzz Patterson a is on according to Buzz Patterson a piece of like sort of laminated plastic piece of like sort of laminated plastic piece of like sort of laminated plastic he described it like a Denny's menu mhm he described it like a Denny's menu mhm he described it like a Denny's menu mhm and from that and from that and from that menu the president chooses targets and menu the president chooses targets and menu the president chooses targets and chooses weapon chooses weapon chooses weapon systems and it's probably super old systems and it's probably super old systems and it's probably super old school like all uh top secret systems school like all uh top secret systems school like all uh top secret systems are because they have to be tested over are because they have to be tested over are because they have to be tested over and over and over and over and over yes and over and over and over and over yes and over and over and over and over yes and it's non-digital non-digital it and it's non-digital non-digital it and it's non-digital non-digital it might literally be a menu from hell might literally be a menu from hell might literally be a menu from hell right and there's a meanwhile I learned right and there's a meanwhile I learned right and there's a meanwhile I learned this only in reporting the book um there this only in reporting the book um there this only in reporting the book um there is a identical black book inside the is a identical black book inside the is a identical black book inside the stratcom bunker in Nebraska okay so let stratcom bunker in Nebraska okay so let stratcom bunker in Nebraska okay so let me three command bunkers are involved me three command bunkers are involved me three command bunkers are involved when when nuclear war begins right when when nuclear war begins right when when nuclear war begins right there's the bunker beneath the Pentagon there's the bunker beneath the Pentagon there's the bunker beneath the Pentagon which is called the National military which is called the National military which is called the National military command center okay mhm then there is

command center okay mhm then there is command center okay mhm then there is the bunker beneath Cheyenne Mountain the bunker beneath Cheyenne Mountain the bunker beneath Cheyenne Mountain which everyone has you know or many which everyone has you know or many which everyone has you know or many people have heard of because it's been people have heard of because it's been people have heard of because it's been made famous in movies right that is a made famous in movies right that is a made famous in movies right that is a very real bunker and then there is a very real bunker and then there is a very real bunker and then there is a third bunker which people are not so third bunker which people are not so third bunker which people are not so familiar with which is the bunker familiar with which is the bunker familiar with which is the bunker beneath strategic command in beneath strategic command in beneath strategic command in Nebraska and so it's described to me Nebraska and so it's described to me Nebraska and so it's described to me this way the Pentagon bunker is the this way the Pentagon bunker is the this way the Pentagon bunker is the Beating Heart the Cheyenne Mountain Beating Heart the Cheyenne Mountain Beating Heart the Cheyenne Mountain bunker is the bunker is the bunker is the brains and the stratcom bunker is the brains and the stratcom bunker is the brains and the stratcom bunker is the muscle muscle muscle the stratcom commander will receive word the stratcom commander will receive word the stratcom commander will receive word from the president launch orders and from the president launch orders and from the president launch orders and then directs the then directs the then directs the 150,000 people beneath him what to do 150,000 people beneath him what to do 150,000 people beneath him what to do okay from the bunker in Strat beneath okay from the bunker in Strat beneath okay from the bunker in Strat beneath stratcom that's before he run you know stratcom that's before he run you know stratcom that's before he run you know he gets the orders then he has to run he gets the orders then he has to run he gets the orders then he has to run out of the building and jump onto a out of the building and jump onto a out of the building and jump onto a What's called the Doomsday plane we'll What's called the Doomsday plane we'll What's called the Doomsday plane we'll get into that in a minute let me just get into that in a minute let me just get into that in a minute let me just finish the I mean but again this is finish the I mean but again this is finish the I mean but again this is right these are the details this is like right these are the details this is like right these are the details this is like these are the systematic sequential these are the systematic sequential these are the systematic sequential details that happen in seconds and details that happen in seconds and details that happen in seconds and minutes and Reporting them I never minutes and Reporting them I never minutes and Reporting them I never ceased to be amazed by what a system it ceased to be amazed by what a system it ceased to be amazed by what a system it is you know a a follows B you know just is you know a a follows B you know just is you know a a follows B you know just it's just numerical right yeah but as we it's just numerical right yeah but as we it's just numerical right yeah but as we discussed this procedure each individual discussed this procedure each individual discussed this procedure each individual person that follows that procedure might

person that follows that procedure might person that follows that procedure might lose the big picture of the whole thing I mean especially when you I mean especially when you realize what what is happening y that realize what what is happening y that realize what what is happening y that almost out of fear you just follow the almost out of fear you just follow the almost out of fear you just follow the steps y or okay so imagine this imagine steps y or okay so imagine this imagine steps y or okay so imagine this imagine being the president you got that six being the president you got that six being the president you got that six minute wi you have to you're looking at minute wi you have to you're looking at minute wi you have to you're looking at your list of strike options you're being your list of strike options you're being your list of strike options you're being briefed by your chairman of the Joint briefed by your chairman of the Joint briefed by your chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and your SAA and this Chiefs of Staff and your SAA and this Chiefs of Staff and your SAA and this other really spooky detail in the other really spooky detail in the other really spooky detail in the stratcom stratcom stratcom bunker in addition to the Nuclear Strike bunker in addition to the Nuclear Strike bunker in addition to the Nuclear Strike advisor who can answer very specific advisor who can answer very specific advisor who can answer very specific questions if the president's like wait a questions if the president's like wait a questions if the president's like wait a minute why are we striking that not that minute why are we striking that not that minute why are we striking that not that there's also a weather officer and this there's also a weather officer and this there's also a weather officer and this is the kind of human detail that kept me is the kind of human detail that kept me is the kind of human detail that kept me up at night because that weather officer up at night because that weather officer up at night because that weather officer is in charge of explaining to the is in charge of explaining to the is in charge of explaining to the president really fast how many people president really fast how many people president really fast how many people are going to die and how many people are going to die and how many people are going to die and how many people are going to die in minutes weeks months are going to die in minutes weeks months are going to die in minutes weeks months and years from radiation and years from radiation and years from radiation Fallout because a lot of that has to do Fallout because a lot of that has to do Fallout because a lot of that has to do with the weather system with the weather system with the weather system yes yes and so these kinds of the yes yes and so these kinds of the yes yes and so these kinds of the humanness you know balanced out with the humanness you know balanced out with the humanness you know balanced out with the mechanization of it all MH mechanization of it all MH mechanization of it all MH is it's just really grotesque

is it's just really grotesque is it's just really grotesque so the uh doomsday plane from stratcom so the uh doomsday plane from stratcom so the uh doomsday plane from stratcom what's that where's it going it's on what's that where's it going it's on what's that where's it going it's on it okay ready it's going to fly in it okay ready it's going to fly in it okay ready it's going to fly in circles that's where it's going it's circles that's where it's going it's circles that's where it's going it's flying in circles around the United flying in circles around the United flying in circles around the United States of States of States of America so that nuclear weapons can be America so that nuclear weapons can be America so that nuclear weapons can be launched from the launched from the launched from the air after the ground systems are taken air after the ground systems are taken air after the ground systems are taken out by the incoming icbms or the out by the incoming icbms or the out by the incoming icbms or the incoming incoming incoming submarine launch ballistic missiles this submarine launch ballistic missiles this submarine launch ballistic missiles this has been in play since the has been in play since the has been in play since the 50s this is these These are the 50s this is these These are the 50s this is these These are the contingency plans for when nuclear war contingency plans for when nuclear war contingency plans for when nuclear war happens so again going back to this happens so again going back to this happens so again going back to this absurd Paradox nuclear war will never absurd Paradox nuclear war will never absurd Paradox nuclear war will never happen you know Mutual assured happen you know Mutual assured happen you know Mutual assured destruction that is why deterrence will destruction that is why deterrence will destruction that is why deterrence will hold well I found a talk that the deputy hold well I found a talk that the deputy hold well I found a talk that the deputy director of stratcom gave to a very director of stratcom gave to a very director of stratcom gave to a very close nit group where he said yes close nit group where he said yes close nit group where he said yes deterrence will hold but if it fails deterrence will hold but if it fails deterrence will hold but if it fails everything everything everything unravels and think about that word unravels and think about that word unravels and think about that word unravels right and the unraveling is you unravels right and the unraveling is you unravels right and the unraveling is you know the Doomsday plane launches the know the Doomsday plane launches the know the Doomsday plane launches the stratcom commander jumps in he's in that stratcom commander jumps in he's in that stratcom commander jumps in he's in that plane he's flying around the United plane he's flying around the United plane he's flying around the United States and uh he's making decisions States and uh he's making decisions States and uh he's making decisions because the pentagon's been taken because the pentagon's been taken because the pentagon's been taken out at 911 by the way Bush was in the out at 911 by the way Bush was in the out at 911 by the way Bush was in the Doomsday plane and uh bush had to make Doomsday plane and uh bush had to make Doomsday plane and uh bush had to make decisions quickly but not so quickly not

decisions quickly but not so quickly not decisions quickly but not so quickly not as quickly as he would have need to have as quickly as he would have need to have as quickly as he would have need to have done if there's a nuclear launch I mean done if there's a nuclear launch I mean done if there's a nuclear launch I mean six six six minutes it's basically happens in three minutes it's basically happens in three minutes it's basically happens in three acts there's the first 24 minutes the acts there's the first 24 minutes the acts there's the first 24 minutes the next 24 minutes and the last 24 minutes next 24 minutes and the last 24 minutes next 24 minutes and the last 24 minutes and that is the reality of nuclear weapons what is the Interceptor weapons what is the Interceptor capabilities of the United States how capabilities of the United States how capabilities of the United States how many nuclear missiles can be many nuclear missiles can be many nuclear missiles can be stopped I was at a dinner party with a stopped I was at a dinner party with a stopped I was at a dinner party with a very informed person right like somebody very informed person right like somebody very informed person right like somebody who really you know should have known who really you know should have known who really you know should have known this and I this is when I was this and I this is when I was this and I this is when I was considering writing and Reporting this considering writing and Reporting this considering writing and Reporting this book and he said to me oh Annie that book and he said to me oh Annie that book and he said to me oh Annie that would never happen because of our would never happen because of our would never happen because of our powerful Interceptor system okay well powerful Interceptor system okay well powerful Interceptor system okay well he's wrong let me tell you about our he's wrong let me tell you about our he's wrong let me tell you about our powerful Interceptor system first of all powerful Interceptor system first of all powerful Interceptor system first of all we have 44 Interceptor missiles total we have 44 Interceptor missiles total we have 44 Interceptor missiles total period full stop let me repeat period full stop let me repeat period full stop let me repeat 44 okay earlier we were talking about 44 okay earlier we were talking about 44 okay earlier we were talking about Russia's 1,670 deployed nuclear weapons how are 1,670 deployed nuclear weapons how are they how are those 44 Interceptor they how are those 44 Interceptor they how are those 44 Interceptor missiles going to work right um and they missiles going to work right um and they missiles going to work right um and they also have a success rate of around 50% also have a success rate of around 50% also have a success rate of around 50% so they work 50% of the time there are so they work 50% of the time there are so they work 50% of the time there are 40 of them in Alaska and there four of

40 of them in Alaska and there four of 40 of them in Alaska and there four of them at Vandenberg Air Force Base in them at Vandenberg Air Force Base in them at Vandenberg Air Force Base in Santa Barbara okay and they are Santa Barbara okay and they are Santa Barbara okay and they are responsible at about 9 minutes into the responsible at about 9 minutes into the responsible at about 9 minutes into the scenario right after the ICBM has scenario right after the ICBM has scenario right after the ICBM has finished that five- minute boost phase finished that five- minute boost phase finished that five- minute boost phase we talked about now it's in midcourse we talked about now it's in midcourse we talked about now it's in midcourse phase and the ground radar systems have phase and the ground radar systems have phase and the ground radar systems have identified yes this is an incoming ICBM identified yes this is an incoming ICBM identified yes this is an incoming ICBM MH and now the Interceptor missiles have MH and now the Interceptor missiles have MH and now the Interceptor missiles have to launch right it's essentially to launch right it's essentially to launch right it's essentially shooting a missile with a missile inside shooting a missile with a missile inside shooting a missile with a missile inside the Interceptor which is just a big the Interceptor which is just a big the Interceptor which is just a big giant rocket in its nose cone it has giant rocket in its nose cone it has giant rocket in its nose cone it has what's called a the apply named EXO what's called a the apply named EXO what's called a the apply named EXO atmospheric kill vehicle okay there's no atmospheric kill vehicle okay there's no atmospheric kill vehicle okay there's no explosives in that thing it's literally explosives in that thing it's literally explosives in that thing it's literally just going to take out the Warhead just going to take out the Warhead just going to take out the Warhead ideally with Force ideally with Force ideally with Force so one of them is going like you know so one of them is going like you know so one of them is going like you know March 20 and the I mean the the speeds March 20 and the I mean the the speeds March 20 and the I mean the the speeds at which these two moving objects at which these two moving objects at which these two moving objects hurdling through space are going is hurdling through space are going is hurdling through space are going is astonishing and the fact that that astonishing and the fact that that astonishing and the fact that that interception is even possible is really interception is even possible is really interception is even possible is really remarkable but it's only possible 50% of remarkable but it's only possible 50% of remarkable but it's only possible 50% of the time is it possible that we only the time is it possible that we only the time is it possible that we only know about 44 but there could be a lot know about 44 but there could be a lot know about 44 but there could be a lot more no impossible that I would be more no impossible that I would be more no impossible that I would be willing to bet and how well tested are willing to bet and how well tested are willing to bet and how well tested are these interceptors well that's where we these interceptors well that's where we these interceptors well that's where we get the success rate that's around 50% get the success rate that's around 50% get the success rate that's around 50% because of the test right and actually

because of the test right and actually because of the test right and actually the Interceptor program is are you ready the Interceptor program is are you ready the Interceptor program is are you ready for this it's on strategic pause right for this it's on strategic pause right for this it's on strategic pause right right now meaning the Interceptor right now meaning the Interceptor right now meaning the Interceptor missiles are there but developing them missiles are there but developing them missiles are there but developing them and making them more effective is on and making them more effective is on and making them more effective is on strategic pause because they can't be strategic pause because they can't be strategic pause because they can't be made more effective right people have made more effective right people have made more effective right people have these fantasies that uh we have a system these fantasies that uh we have a system these fantasies that uh we have a system like the Iron Dome and they see this in like the Iron Dome and they see this in like the Iron Dome and they see this in current events and they're like oh our current events and they're like oh our current events and they're like oh our interceptors would do that it's just interceptors would do that it's just interceptors would do that it's just simply not true why why can't an Iron simply not true why why can't an Iron simply not true why why can't an Iron Dome like system be constructed for Dome like system be constructed for Dome like system be constructed for nuclear warheads we have systems I write nuclear warheads we have systems I write nuclear warheads we have systems I write about called the Thad system which is about called the Thad system which is about called the Thad system which is groundbased and then the Eis system groundbased and then the Eis system groundbased and then the Eis system which is on you know vessels and these which is on you know vessels and these which is on you know vessels and these are great at shooting down some in you are great at shooting down some in you are great at shooting down some in you know some Rockets but they they they can know some Rockets but they they they can know some Rockets but they they they can only shoot them sort of one at a time only shoot them sort of one at a time only shoot them sort of one at a time you cannot shoot the motherload as it's you cannot shoot the motherload as it's you cannot shoot the motherload as it's coming in those are the smaller systems coming in those are the smaller systems coming in those are the smaller systems right the tactical nuclear weapons and right the tactical nuclear weapons and right the tactical nuclear weapons and by the way our systems are all deployed by the way our systems are all deployed by the way our systems are all deployed overseas and our egis systems are all overseas and our egis systems are all overseas and our egis systems are all out at Sea and again reporting that I out at Sea and again reporting that I out at Sea and again reporting that I was like wait what you know you have to was like wait what you know you have to was like wait what you know you have to really hunker down are we sure about really hunker down are we sure about really hunker down are we sure about this people really don't want to believe this people really don't want to believe this people really don't want to believe this it's an actual fact after 911 this it's an actual fact after 911 this it's an actual fact after 911 Congress considered putting and you know Congress considered putting and you know Congress considered putting and you know egis missiles and maybe even Thad egis missiles and maybe even Thad egis missiles and maybe even Thad systems along the west coast of the systems along the west coast of the systems along the west coast of the United States to specifically deal with United States to specifically deal with United States to specifically deal with the threats against nuclear armed North the threats against nuclear armed North the threats against nuclear armed North Korea but it hasn't done so yet and Korea but it hasn't done so yet and Korea but it hasn't done so yet and again you have to ask yourself wait a again you have to ask yourself wait a again you have to ask yourself wait a minute this is insanity you know one minute this is insanity you know one minute this is insanity you know one nuclear weapon Gets By any of these nuclear weapon Gets By any of these nuclear weapon Gets By any of these systems and it's full out nuclear

systems and it's full out nuclear systems and it's full out nuclear warfare warfare warfare so that's not the solution more nuclear so that's not the solution more nuclear so that's not the solution more nuclear weapons is not the weapons is not the weapons is not the solution I'm looking for a hopeful thing solution I'm looking for a hopeful thing solution I'm looking for a hopeful thing here about North Korea uh how many here about North Korea uh how many here about North Korea uh how many deployed nuclear warheads does North deployed nuclear warheads does North deployed nuclear warheads does North Korea have so does the current system Korea have so does the current system Korea have so does the current system with as we described it uh the with as we described it uh the with as we described it uh the interceptors and so on have a hope interceptors and so on have a hope interceptors and so on have a hope against the North Korean attack the one against the North Korean attack the one against the North Korean attack the one that you mentioned people are worried that you mentioned people are worried that you mentioned people are worried about so they North Korea has 50 let's about so they North Korea has 50 let's about so they North Korea has 50 let's say 50 nuclear weapons right now some say 50 nuclear weapons right now some say 50 nuclear weapons right now some NOS put it at more than a 100 it's it's NOS put it at more than a 100 it's it's NOS put it at more than a 100 it's it's impossible to know because North Korea's impossible to know because North Korea's impossible to know because North Korea's nuclear weapons program has no nuclear weapons program has no nuclear weapons program has no transparency they're the only nuclear transparency they're the only nuclear transparency they're the only nuclear armed nation that doesn't announce when armed nation that doesn't announce when armed nation that doesn't announce when they do a ballistic missile test they do a ballistic missile test they do a ballistic missile test everyone else does no one wants to start everyone else does no one wants to start everyone else does no one wants to start a nuclear war by accident right so if a nuclear war by accident right so if a nuclear war by accident right so if Russia's going to launch an ICBM they Russia's going to launch an ICBM they Russia's going to launch an ICBM they tell us if we're going to launch one and tell us if we're going to launch one and tell us if we're going to launch one and I'm I'm talking test runs here you know I'm I'm talking test runs here you know I'm I'm talking test runs here you know with the dummy Warhead we we tell them with the dummy Warhead we we tell them with the dummy Warhead we we tell them not North Korea that's a fact okay so not North Korea that's a fact okay so not North Korea that's a fact okay so we're constantly up against the fear of we're constantly up against the fear of we're constantly up against the fear of North Korea in the scenario I have the North Korea in the scenario I have the North Korea in the scenario I have the incoming North Korean one Megaton you incoming North Korean one Megaton you incoming North Korean one Megaton you know weapon coming in and the know weapon coming in and the know weapon coming in and the Interceptor system tries to shoot it Interceptor system tries to shoot it Interceptor system tries to shoot it down so there there's not enough time down so there there's not enough time down so there there's not enough time and this by the way I ran through by all and this by the way I ran through by all and this by the way I ran through by all you know generals from the Pentagon who

you know generals from the Pentagon who you know generals from the Pentagon who run these scenarios for no red right and run these scenarios for no red right and run these scenarios for no red right and confirmed all of this as fact this is confirmed all of this as fact this is confirmed all of this as fact this is not this is this is this is the not this is this is this is the not this is this is this is the situation right so in the scenario I situation right so in the scenario I situation right so in the scenario I have the nuclear ICBM coming in the have the nuclear ICBM coming in the have the nuclear ICBM coming in the Interceptor missiles try to shoot down Interceptor missiles try to shoot down Interceptor missiles try to shoot down the Warhead the capability is is not the Warhead the capability is is not the Warhead the capability is is not like what's called Shoot you know and like what's called Shoot you know and like what's called Shoot you know and look they can't there's not enough time look they can't there's not enough time look they can't there's not enough time to go like and we're going to try to get to go like and we're going to try to get to go like and we're going to try to get it we missed it okay let's go for it we missed it okay let's go for it we missed it okay let's go for another one so you have to another one so you have to another one so you have to go right so in my scenario we fire off go right so in my scenario we fire off go right so in my scenario we fire off four which is about what I was told with four which is about what I was told with four which is about what I was told with one to four because you're worried about one to four because you're worried about one to four because you're worried about the next one that's going to come in the next one that's going to come in the next one that's going to come in you're going to use up 10% of your you're going to use up 10% of your you're going to use up 10% of your missile force of your Interceptor force missile force of your Interceptor force missile force of your Interceptor force on one and all four Miss and that's on one and all four Miss and that's on one and all four Miss and that's totally totally totally plausible plausible plausible right uh How likely are mistakes right uh How likely are mistakes right uh How likely are mistakes accidents false alarms taken as real all accidents false alarms taken as real all accidents false alarms taken as real all this kind of stuff in this picture so this kind of stuff in this picture so this kind of stuff in this picture so like you've we've kind of assumed the like you've we've kind of assumed the like you've we've kind of assumed the detection works detection works detection works correctly How likely is it possible like correctly How likely is it possible like correctly How likely is it possible like anywhere you you described this long anywhere you you described this long anywhere you you described this long chain of events that can happen how chain of events that can happen how chain of events that can happen how possible is it just to make a mistake a possible is it just to make a mistake a possible is it just to make a mistake a stupid human mistake along the way there stupid human mistake along the way there stupid human mistake along the way there have been at least six known like have been at least six known like have been at least six known like absolute like like oh my God close calls absolute like like oh my God close calls absolute like like oh my God close calls how how thank God this happened type how how thank God this happened type how how thank God this happened type scenarios one was described to me with scenarios one was described to me with scenarios one was described to me with an actual personal participant secretary an actual personal participant secretary an actual personal participant secretary former Secretary of Defense Bill Perry

former Secretary of Defense Bill Perry former Secretary of Defense Bill Perry right and he described what happened to right and he described what happened to right and he described what happened to him in him in him in 1979 he was not yet Secretary of Defense 1979 he was not yet Secretary of Defense 1979 he was not yet Secretary of Defense he was the deputy director of research he was the deputy director of research he was the deputy director of research and Engineering which is like a big job and Engineering which is like a big job and Engineering which is like a big job at the Pentagon and it was the the the at the Pentagon and it was the the the at the Pentagon and it was the the the night watch fell on him essentially night watch fell on him essentially night watch fell on him essentially right and he gets this call in the right and he gets this call in the right and he gets this call in the middle of the night he's told that middle of the night he's told that middle of the night he's told that Russia has Russia has Russia has launched not just icbms but submarine launched not just icbms but submarine launched not just icbms but submarine launch ballistic missiles are coming at launch ballistic missiles are coming at launch ballistic missiles are coming at the United States and he is about to the United States and he is about to the United States and he is about to notify the president that the six-minute notify the president that the six-minute notify the president that the six-minute window has to begin when he learns it window has to begin when he learns it window has to begin when he learns it was a mistake the mistake was that there was a mistake the mistake was that there was a mistake the mistake was that there was a training tape with a nuclear war was a training tape with a nuclear war was a training tape with a nuclear war scenario right we haven't even begun to scenario right we haven't even begun to scenario right we haven't even begun to talk about the nuclear war scenarios at talk about the nuclear war scenarios at talk about the nuclear war scenarios at the Pentagon runs an actual VHS training the Pentagon runs an actual VHS training the Pentagon runs an actual VHS training tape had been incorrectly insert it into tape had been incorrectly insert it into tape had been incorrectly insert it into a system at the Pentagon and so this a system at the Pentagon and so this a system at the Pentagon and so this nuclear launch showed up at that bunker nuclear launch showed up at that bunker nuclear launch showed up at that bunker beneath the Pentagon and at the bunker beneath the Pentagon and at the bunker beneath the Pentagon and at the bunker beneath stratcom because they're beneath stratcom because they're beneath stratcom because they're connected as being real and then it was connected as being real and then it was connected as being real and then it was like oh whoops it's actually a like oh whoops it's actually a like oh whoops it's actually a simulation test tape and Perry described simulation test tape and Perry described simulation test tape and Perry described to me what that was like the Paw in his to me what that was like the Paw in his to me what that was like the Paw in his spirit and his mind and his heart when spirit and his mind and his heart when spirit and his mind and his heart when he realized I'm about to have to tell he realized I'm about to have to tell he realized I'm about to have to tell the president that he needs to launch the president that he needs to launch the president that he needs to launch nuclear weapons and he learned just in nuclear weapons and he learned just in nuclear weapons and he learned just in the neck of time that it was it was an the neck of time that it was it was an the neck of time that it was it was an error and that's one of five examples

error and that's one of five examples error and that's one of five examples can you speak to maybe um is there any can you speak to maybe um is there any can you speak to maybe um is there any more color to the feelings he was more color to the feelings he was more color to the feelings he was feeling like what's your sense and given feeling like what's your sense and given feeling like what's your sense and given all the experts you've talked to all the experts you've talked to all the experts you've talked to what what can be said about the seconds what what can be said about the seconds what what can be said about the seconds that one feels uh once finding out that that one feels uh once finding out that that one feels uh once finding out that a launch has happened even if that a launch has happened even if that a launch has happened even if that information is a is false information information is a is false information information is a is false information for me personally that's the only for me personally that's the only for me personally that's the only firsthand story that I ever heard firsthand story that I ever heard firsthand story that I ever heard because it's so rare and it's so unique because it's so rare and it's so unique because it's so rare and it's so unique and most people in the National Security and most people in the National Security and most people in the National Security system at least in the past have been system at least in the past have been system at least in the past have been loathed to talk about any of this right loathed to talk about any of this right loathed to talk about any of this right it's like the sacred oath it's Taboo it's like the sacred oath it's Taboo it's like the sacred oath it's Taboo it's taboo to go against um the system it's taboo to go against um the system it's taboo to go against um the system of systems that is you know making sure of systems that is you know making sure of systems that is you know making sure nuclear war never happens Bill Perry was nuclear war never happens Bill Perry was nuclear war never happens Bill Perry was one of the first people who did this and one of the first people who did this and one of the first people who did this and a lot of it I believe at least in my a lot of it I believe at least in my a lot of it I believe at least in my lengthy conversations with him over we lengthy conversations with him over we lengthy conversations with him over we had a lot of Zoom calls over covid when had a lot of Zoom calls over covid when had a lot of Zoom calls over covid when I began reporting this and he had a lot I began reporting this and he had a lot I began reporting this and he had a lot to do with me feeling like I could write to do with me feeling like I could write to do with me feeling like I could write this book from a this book from a this book from a human point of view and not just from human point of view and not just from human point of view and not just from the mechanized systems because and I the mechanized systems because and I the mechanized systems because and I only lightly touch upon this because only lightly touch upon this because only lightly touch upon this because it's such a fast sweeping scenario but it's such a fast sweeping scenario but it's such a fast sweeping scenario but Perry for example spent his whole life Perry for example spent his whole life Perry for example spent his whole life dedicated to building weapons of war dedicated to building weapons of war dedicated to building weapons of war only later in life to realize this is

only later in life to realize this is only later in life to realize this is madness and he shared with me that it madness and he shared with me that it madness and he shared with me that it was that idea about one's grandchildren was that idea about one's grandchildren was that idea about one's grandchildren inheriting these nuclear arsenals and inheriting these nuclear arsenals and inheriting these nuclear arsenals and the lack of you know the lack of you know the lack of you know wisdom that comes with their or origin wisdom that comes with their or origin wisdom that comes with their or origin stories right when you're involved in it stories right when you're involved in it stories right when you're involved in it in the ground up in the ground up in the ground up apparently it apparently it apparently it has perhaps you're a different kind of has perhaps you're a different kind of has perhaps you're a different kind of Steward of these systems than if you Steward of these systems than if you Steward of these systems than if you just inherit them and they are you know just inherit them and they are you know just inherit them and they are you know pages in a manual mhm people forget you pages in a manual mhm people forget you pages in a manual mhm people forget you mentioned the kind of nuclear war mentioned the kind of nuclear war mentioned the kind of nuclear war scenarios that the Pentagon runs I'd scenarios that the Pentagon runs I'd scenarios that the Pentagon runs I'd love to what do you know about those I love to what do you know about those I love to what do you know about those I mean again they are very classified mean again they are very classified mean again they are very classified right I mean it was interesting coming right I mean it was interesting coming right I mean it was interesting coming across information levels of across information levels of across information levels of classification I didn't even know classification I didn't even know classification I didn't even know existed like ECI for example is existed like ECI for example is existed like ECI for example is exceptionally controlled information exceptionally controlled information exceptionally controlled information right um but the Pentagon War nuclear right um but the Pentagon War nuclear right um but the Pentagon War nuclear war gaming scenarios they're almost all war gaming scenarios they're almost all war gaming scenarios they're almost all still classified one of them was still classified one of them was still classified one of them was Declassified recently if you can call it Declassified recently if you can call it Declassified recently if you can call it that I show an image of it in the book that I show an image of it in the book that I show an image of it in the book and it's just basically and it's just basically and it's just basically like almost all almost entirely redact like almost all almost entirely redact like almost all almost entirely redact and then like there'll be a date you and then like there'll be a date you and then like there'll be a date you know or it'll say like phase one um and know or it'll say like phase one um and know or it'll say like phase one um and that one was called proud profit but that one was called proud profit but that one was called proud profit but what was incredible about the what was incredible about the what was incredible about the declassification process of that is it

declassification process of that is it declassification process of that is it allowed allowed a couple of people who allowed allowed a couple of people who allowed allowed a couple of people who were there to talk about it okay and were there to talk about it okay and were there to talk about it okay and that's why we have that information and that's why we have that information and that's why we have that information and I write about proud profit in the book I write about proud profit in the book I write about proud profit in the book because it was super significant in many because it was super significant in many because it was super significant in many ways one it was happening right in 1983 ways one it was happening right in 1983 ways one it was happening right in 1983 there was an it was an insane moment in there was an it was an insane moment in there was an it was an insane moment in nuclear Arsenal there were nuclear Arsenal there were nuclear Arsenal there were 60,000 nuclear weapons right now there's 60,000 nuclear weapons right now there's 60,000 nuclear weapons right now there's 12,500 so we've come a long way baby 12,500 so we've come a long way baby 12,500 so we've come a long way baby right in terms of disarmament but there right in terms of disarmament but there right in terms of disarmament but there were 60,000 and by the way that was not were 60,000 and by the way that was not were 60,000 and by the way that was not the ultimate High the ultimate high was the ultimate High the ultimate high was the ultimate High the ultimate high was 70,000 okay this is insane and Ronald 70,000 okay this is insane and Ronald 70,000 okay this is insane and Ronald Reagan was President and he orders this Reagan was President and he orders this Reagan was President and he orders this war game called proud profit and um you war game called proud profit and um you war game called proud profit and um you know this everyone everyone that know this everyone everyone that know this everyone everyone that mattered was involved they were running mattered was involved they were running mattered was involved they were running the war game scenarios and what we the war game scenarios and what we the war game scenarios and what we learned learn from his learned learn from his learned learn from his declassification is that no matter how declassification is that no matter how declassification is that no matter how nuclear war starts there was a bunch of nuclear war starts there was a bunch of nuclear war starts there was a bunch of different scenarios with you know NATO different scenarios with you know NATO different scenarios with you know NATO involved without NATO with the all involved without NATO with the all involved without NATO with the all different scenarios no matter how different scenarios no matter how different scenarios no matter how nuclear war starts it ends in nuclear war starts it ends in nuclear war starts it ends in Armageddon it ends with everyone Armageddon it ends with everyone Armageddon it ends with everyone Deb I mean this is shocking when you Deb I mean this is shocking when you Deb I mean this is shocking when you think think think about that coupled with the idea that about that coupled with the idea that about that coupled with the idea that all that has been done in the 40 mod all that has been done in the 40 mod all that has been done in the 40 mod years s is okay this let's just really years s is okay this let's just really years s is okay this let's just really lean in even harder to lean in even harder to lean in even harder to this theoretical phenomena of deterrence this theoretical phenomena of deterrence this theoretical phenomena of deterrence because that's all it is it's just a

because that's all it is it's just a because that's all it is it's just a statement Lex like deterrence will statement Lex like deterrence will statement Lex like deterrence will hold okay well what if it hold okay well what if it hold okay well what if it doesn't well we know from proud profit doesn't well we know from proud profit doesn't well we know from proud profit what happens if it what happens if it what happens if it doesn't so almost always so there's no doesn't so almost always so there's no doesn't so almost always so there's no mechanisms in the human mind and the mechanisms in the human mind and the mechanisms in the human mind and the human soul that stops IT in the in the human soul that stops IT in the in the human soul that stops IT in the in the governments they've created it just keep governments they've created it just keep governments they've created it just keep the procedure escalates always I mean the procedure escalates always I mean the procedure escalates always I mean here's a crazy nomenclature jargon thing here's a crazy nomenclature jargon thing here's a crazy nomenclature jargon thing for you ready escalate to deescalate for you ready escalate to deescalate for you ready escalate to deescalate that's what comes out of it think about that's what comes out of it think about that's what comes out of it think about what what I just said escalate to what what I just said escalate to what what I just said escalate to deescalate okay so someone strikes you deescalate okay so someone strikes you deescalate okay so someone strikes you with a nuclear weapon you're going to with a nuclear weapon you're going to with a nuclear weapon you're going to escalate it right General heighton escalate it right General heighton escalate it right General heighton recently said he was stratcom commander recently said he was stratcom commander recently said he was stratcom commander you know if he was sort of saber you know if he was sort of saber you know if he was sort of saber rattling with North Korea during Co and rattling with North Korea during Co and rattling with North Korea during Co and he said they need to know if if they he said they need to know if if they he said they need to know if if they launch one nuclear weapon we launch one launch one nuclear weapon we launch one launch one nuclear weapon we launch one if they launch two we launch two but if they launch two we launch two but if they launch two we launch two but it's actually more than that they launch it's actually more than that they launch it's actually more than that they launch one we launch 80 yeah okay that's called one we launch 80 yeah okay that's called one we launch 80 yeah okay that's called escalate to deescalate like pound the escalate to deescalate like pound the escalate to deescalate like pound the you know what out of them to get them to you know what out of them to get them to you know what out of them to get them to stop but I mean there stop but I mean there stop but I mean there is to make a case for that there is a is to make a case for that there is a is to make a case for that there is a reason to the reason to the reason to the madness because you want to threaten madness because you want to threaten madness because you want to threaten this gigantic response but when it comes this gigantic response but when it comes this gigantic response but when it comes to it the seconds before there is still to it the seconds before there is still to it the seconds before there is still a probability that you'll pull back a probability that you'll pull back a probability that you'll pull back which brings us to the most

which brings us to the most which brings us to the most terrifying facts that I learned in all terrifying facts that I learned in all terrifying facts that I learned in all of that and that has to do of that and that has to do of that and that has to do with errors right not just not errors of with errors right not just not errors of with errors right not just not errors of like we spoke about a minute ago with an like we spoke about a minute ago with an like we spoke about a minute ago with an you know simulation test tape I'm you know simulation test tape I'm you know simulation test tape I'm talking about if one new one madman one talking about if one new one madman one talking about if one new one madman one nealis Mad Men were to launch a nuclear nealis Mad Men were to launch a nuclear nealis Mad Men were to launch a nuclear weapon as I as I write in the scenario weapon as I as I write in the scenario weapon as I as I write in the scenario um and we needed to escalate to um and we needed to escalate to um and we needed to escalate to deescalate we needed to send nuclear deescalate we needed to send nuclear deescalate we needed to send nuclear weapons at let's say North Korea as I do weapons at let's say North Korea as I do weapons at let's say North Korea as I do in my scenario well what is completely in my scenario well what is completely in my scenario well what is completely unknown to 98% of the planet is unknown to 98% of the planet is unknown to 98% of the planet is that not only do the Russians have a that not only do the Russians have a that not only do the Russians have a very flawed satellite system so that very flawed satellite system so that very flawed satellite system so that they cannot interpret what is happening they cannot interpret what is happening they cannot interpret what is happening properly but there is a Absol absolutely properly but there is a Absol absolutely properly but there is a Absol absolutely existential flaw on the system which existential flaw on the system which existential flaw on the system which Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta confirmed with me which is that our confirmed with me which is that our confirmed with me which is that our icbms do not have enough icbms do not have enough icbms do not have enough range if they're if we launch a range if they're if we launch a range if they're if we launch a Counterattack against say North Korea Counterattack against say North Korea Counterattack against say North Korea our icbms must fly over our icbms must fly over our icbms must fly over Russia they must fly over Russia so Russia they must fly over Russia so Russia they must fly over Russia so imagine saying oh no no these 82 you imagine saying oh no no these 82 you imagine saying oh no no these 82 you know Warheads that are going to actually know Warheads that are going to actually know Warheads that are going to actually hit the strike the northern Korean hit the strike the northern Korean hit the strike the northern Korean Peninsula are not coming for you Russia Peninsula are not coming for you Russia Peninsula are not coming for you Russia our adversary right now that we're sort our adversary right now that we're sort our adversary right now that we're sort of saber rattling with just trust

of saber rattling with just trust of saber rattling with just trust us and that is where nuclear war unfolds us and that is where nuclear war unfolds us and that is where nuclear war unfolds into Armageddon and that hole in into Armageddon and that hole in into Armageddon and that hole in National Security is shocking and as National Security is shocking and as National Security is shocking and as Panetta told me no one wants to discuss Panetta told me no one wants to discuss Panetta told me no one wants to discuss it and if one nuclear it and if one nuclear it and if one nuclear weapon uh does does reach its Target I weapon uh does does reach its Target I weapon uh does does reach its Target I presume communication breaks down presume communication breaks down presume communication breaks down completely or like there's a high risk completely or like there's a high risk completely or like there's a high risk of breakdown of communication well let's of breakdown of communication well let's of breakdown of communication well let's back up we are both presumptuous to back up we are both presumptuous to back up we are both presumptuous to assume that communication could even assume that communication could even assume that communication could even happen prior to and let me give you a happen prior to and let me give you a happen prior to and let me give you a very specific example during the Ukraine very specific example during the Ukraine very specific example during the Ukraine war war war okay if perhaps you remember I think it okay if perhaps you remember I think it okay if perhaps you remember I think it was in November of was in November of was in November of 2022 news reports erroneous ly stated 2022 news reports erroneous ly stated 2022 news reports erroneous ly stated that a Russian rocket a Russian missile that a Russian rocket a Russian missile that a Russian rocket a Russian missile had hit Poland a NATO country right it had hit Poland a NATO country right it had hit Poland a NATO country right it turned out to be a mistake but for turned out to be a mistake but for turned out to be a mistake but for several hours this was actually the several hours this was actually the several hours this was actually the information that was all over the news information that was all over the news information that was all over the news breaking news breaking news breaking news Okay 36 hours later the chairman of the Okay 36 hours later the chairman of the Okay 36 hours later the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Millie gave a press conference and Millie gave a press conference and Millie gave a press conference and talked about this and admitted that he talked about this and admitted that he talked about this and admitted that he could not reach his Russian counterpart could not reach his Russian counterpart could not reach his Russian counterpart during those 36 hours he could not reach during those 36 hours he could not reach during those 36 hours he could not reach him how are you going to not have an him how are you going to not have an him how are you going to not have an absolute Armageddon like absolute Armageddon like absolute Armageddon like furer with nuclear weapons in the air if

furer with nuclear weapons in the air if furer with nuclear weapons in the air if people can't get on the people can't get on the people can't get on the phone during a ground phone during a ground phone during a ground war I I'd like to believe that there's war I I'd like to believe that there's war I I'd like to believe that there's people in major people in major people in major Nations that don't give a damn about the Nations that don't give a damn about the Nations that don't give a damn about the of politics and can always just of politics and can always just of politics and can always just pick up the phone sort of very close to pick up the phone sort of very close to pick up the phone sort of very close to the top but not at the very top and just the top but not at the very top and just the top but not at the very top and just cut through the of it in cut through the of it in cut through the of it in situations like this I hope that's true situations like this I hope that's true situations like this I hope that's true I doubt it is and let me tell you why I doubt it is and let me tell you why I doubt it is and let me tell you why most and you neither you nor I are most and you neither you nor I are most and you neither you nor I are political from what I gather right so I political from what I gather right so I political from what I gather right so I just write about podus President of the just write about podus President of the just write about podus President of the United States I don't you have no idea United States I don't you have no idea United States I don't you have no idea what my politics are because they what my politics are because they what my politics are because they shouldn't matter no one should be for shouldn't matter no one should be for shouldn't matter no one should be for nuclear war or no one should be for nuclear war or no one should be for nuclear war or no one should be for nuclear you know National insecurity yes nuclear you know National insecurity yes nuclear you know National insecurity yes you want to have a strong Nation but you want to have a strong Nation but you want to have a strong Nation but once you get into politics then you're once you get into politics then you're once you get into politics then you're talking about Copans and the more a talking about Copans and the more a talking about Copans and the more a political leader political leader political leader becomes divisive becomes pmic it the becomes divisive becomes pmic it the becomes divisive becomes pmic it the more his platform is predicated on more his platform is predicated on more his platform is predicated on hating the other side either within his hating the other side either within his hating the other side either within his own country or with enemy alleged enemy own country or with enemy alleged enemy own country or with enemy alleged enemy Nations the more you surround yourself Nations the more you surround yourself Nations the more you surround yourself as we see in the current day with sick as we see in the current day with sick as we see in the current day with sick ofans with people who will tell you not ofans with people who will tell you not ofans with people who will tell you not only what they think you want to hear only what they think you want to hear only what they think you want to hear but what will help them to hold on to but what will help them to hold on to but what will help them to hold on to power so you don't have wise decision power so you don't have wise decision power so you don't have wise decision makers long gone are the days where we

makers long gone are the days where we makers long gone are the days where we had presidents who had advisors on both had presidents who had advisors on both had presidents who had advisors on both sides of the aisle that's really sides of the aisle that's really sides of the aisle that's really important because you want to you want important because you want to you want important because you want to you want to have differing opinions but as Things to have differing opinions but as Things to have differing opinions but as Things become more vious both here in the become more vious both here in the become more vious both here in the United States and in nuclear armed United States and in nuclear armed United States and in nuclear armed Nations all bets are off at whether your Nations all bets are off at whether your Nations all bets are off at whether your advisers are going to give you good advisers are going to give you good advisers are going to give you good advice who are the people around the advice who are the people around the advice who are the people around the president of the United States that give president of the United States that give president of the United States that give advice in this six-minute window how advice in this six-minute window how advice in this six-minute window how many of them just to maybe you could many of them just to maybe you could many of them just to maybe you could speak to the detail of that but also to speak to the detail of that but also to speak to the detail of that but also to the spirit of the way they see the world the spirit of the way they see the world the spirit of the way they see the world how many of them are warmongers how many how many of them are warmongers how many how many of them are warmongers how many of them are kind of big picture peace of them are kind of big picture peace of them are kind of big picture peace Humanity type of thinkers well again Humanity type of thinkers well again Humanity type of thinkers well again we're talking about that six-minute we're talking about that six-minute we're talking about that six-minute window so it's not exactly like you can window so it's not exactly like you can window so it's not exactly like you can let me put a pot of coffee on and really let me put a pot of coffee on and really let me put a pot of coffee on and really tell me what you think and we can tell me what you think and we can tell me what you think and we can strategize here right you have your SEF strategize here right you have your SEF strategize here right you have your SEF and your chairman maybe the vice and your chairman maybe the vice and your chairman maybe the vice chairman and okay we haven't even begun chairman and okay we haven't even begun chairman and okay we haven't even begun to talk about the fact that at the same to talk about the fact that at the same to talk about the fact that at the same time these advisers also have an Inc a time these advisers also have an Inc a time these advisers also have an Inc a parallel concern and that's called parallel concern and that's called parallel concern and that's called continuity of government okay so while continuity of government okay so while continuity of government okay so while they're trying to advise on the nucle they're trying to advise on the nucle they're trying to advise on the nucle Counter Strike in response to the Counter Strike in response to the Counter Strike in response to the incoming nuclear missile they have to be incoming nuclear missile they have to be incoming nuclear missile they have to be thinking how are we going to keep the thinking how are we going to keep the thinking how are we going to keep the government functioning when the missiles government functioning when the missiles government functioning when the missiles start hitting when the bombs start going start hitting when the bombs start going start hitting when the bombs start going off and that is about getting yourself

off and that is about getting yourself off and that is about getting yourself out of the Pentagon let's say getting out of the Pentagon let's say getting out of the Pentagon let's say getting yourself to one of these nuclear bunkers yourself to one of these nuclear bunkers yourself to one of these nuclear bunkers that I write about at length in the book that I write about at length in the book that I write about at length in the book so how much can you ask of a human right so how much can you ask of a human right so how much can you ask of a human right because it comes down to a human the because it comes down to a human the because it comes down to a human the Secretary of Defense is a Secretary of Defense is a Secretary of Defense is a human um and and imagine that job while human um and and imagine that job while human um and and imagine that job while trying to advise the president and then trying to advise the president and then trying to advise the president and then there's also a really interesting term there's also a really interesting term there's also a really interesting term which I learned about called jamming the which I learned about called jamming the which I learned about called jamming the president which is often understood in president which is often understood in president which is often understood in Washington that the military advisers Washington that the military advisers Washington that the military advisers would we don't know if this is legit would we don't know if this is legit would we don't know if this is legit we've never seen it put to the test but we've never seen it put to the test but we've never seen it put to the test but jamming the president means the military jamming the president means the military jamming the president means the military advisers are going to push for a really advisers are going to push for a really advisers are going to push for a really aggressive Counterattack immediately MH aggressive Counterattack immediately MH aggressive Counterattack immediately MH and again you're the president who's not and again you're the president who's not and again you're the president who's not really been paying attention to this really been paying attention to this really been paying attention to this because he has many other things to deal because he has many other things to deal because he has many other things to deal with speed is not conducive to wisdom with speed is not conducive to wisdom with speed is not conducive to wisdom can you speak to the jamming the can you speak to the jamming the can you speak to the jamming the president so your senses the advisers president so your senses the advisers president so your senses the advisers would by default be pushing for would by default be pushing for would by default be pushing for aggressive Counterattack that is a term aggressive Counterattack that is a term aggressive Counterattack that is a term in sort of the National Security nuclear in sort of the National Security nuclear in sort of the National Security nuclear command and control historical command and control historical command and control historical documentation that many of the people documentation that many of the people documentation that many of the people that you might call the more doish type that you might call the more doish type that you might call the more doish type people are you know worried about that people are you know worried about that people are you know worried about that the more hawkish people are going to the the more hawkish people are going to the the more hawkish people are going to the military advisers right are going to are military advisers right are going to are military advisers right are going to are going to be jamming the president to going to be jamming the president to going to be jamming the president to make these decisions about which targets

make these decisions about which targets make these decisions about which targets not if which targets the argument would not if which targets the argument would not if which targets the argument would be about which targets not about if yes be about which targets not about if yes be about which targets not about if yes I I hope that even the I I hope that even the I I hope that even the warmongers would uh at this moment warmongers would uh at this moment warmongers would uh at this moment because what underlies the idea of you because what underlies the idea of you because what underlies the idea of you wanting to go to war it's it's power wanting to go to war it's it's power wanting to go to war it's it's power it's like wanting to destroy the enemy it's like wanting to destroy the enemy it's like wanting to destroy the enemy and be the the big kid on the Block but and be the the big kid on the Block but and be the the big kid on the Block but with nuclear war it just feels like that with nuclear war it just feels like that with nuclear war it just feels like that falls falls falls apart do do you think warmongers apart do do you think warmongers apart do do you think warmongers actually believe they can win a nuclear actually believe they can win a nuclear actually believe they can win a nuclear war well you've raised a really war well you've raised a really war well you've raised a really important question that we look to the important question that we look to the important question that we look to the historical record for that answer right historical record for that answer right historical record for that answer right because astonishingly all of this began because astonishingly all of this began because astonishingly all of this began like when when Russia first got the bomb like when when Russia first got the bomb like when when Russia first got the bomb in in in 1949 the powers that be and I write 1949 the powers that be and I write 1949 the powers that be and I write about them in the book is in a setup to about them in the book is in a setup to about them in the book is in a setup to the first you know for the for the the first you know for the for the the first you know for the for the moment of launch right like it's called moment of launch right like it's called moment of launch right like it's called how we got here right and you see and I how we got here right and you see and I how we got here right and you see and I cite you know Declassified documents cite you know Declassified documents cite you know Declassified documents from some of these from some of these from some of these early um meetings where nuclear war early um meetings where nuclear war early um meetings where nuclear war plans were being laid out and absolutely plans were being laid out and absolutely plans were being laid out and absolutely back in the 1950s the the generals and back in the 1950s the the generals and back in the 1950s the the generals and the Admirals that were running the the Admirals that were running the the Admirals that were running the nuclear command and control system nuclear command and control system nuclear command and control system believed that we could fight and win a believed that we could fight and win a believed that we could fight and win a nuclear war despite hundreds of millions nuclear war despite hundreds of millions nuclear war despite hundreds of millions of people dying this was the prevailing of people dying this was the prevailing of people dying this was the prevailing thought and only over time did did the

thought and only over time did did the thought and only over time did did the did the kind of concept come into play did the kind of concept come into play did the kind of concept come into play that no we can we can never have a that no we can we can never have a that no we can we can never have a nuclear war it's the famous gorbachov nuclear war it's the famous gorbachov nuclear war it's the famous gorbachov and Reagan joint statement a nuclear war and Reagan joint statement a nuclear war and Reagan joint statement a nuclear war cannot be won and must never be fought cannot be won and must never be fought cannot be won and must never be fought but before that many but before that many but before that many people believed that it could be won and people believed that it could be won and people believed that it could be won and they were preparing for that not to be they were preparing for that not to be they were preparing for that not to be political and not to be political and not to be political and not to be aist but do uh cognitive abilities and aist but do uh cognitive abilities and aist but do uh cognitive abilities and all that kind of stuff come into play all that kind of stuff come into play all that kind of stuff come into play here so if so much is riding on the here so if so much is riding on the here so if so much is riding on the president is there president is there president is there tests that are conducted is there tests that are conducted is there tests that are conducted is there regular training procedures on the regular training procedures on the regular training procedures on the president that you're aware of do you president that you're aware of do you president that you're aware of do you know I don't think that has anything to know I don't think that has anything to know I don't think that has anything to do with agism I think it has to do with do with agism I think it has to do with do with agism I think it has to do with I think it's an Earnest question a I think it's an Earnest question a I think it's an Earnest question a really powerful one and if people were really powerful one and if people were really powerful one and if people were to ask that question of themselves or to ask that question of themselves or to ask that question of themselves or their sort of you know dinner party their sort of you know dinner party their sort of you know dinner party guest or their family around the dinner guest or their family around the dinner guest or their family around the dinner table guest you might come to a real table guest you might come to a real table guest you might come to a real good conclusion about how bad our good conclusion about how bad our good conclusion about how bad our political system is and how bad our political system is and how bad our political system is and how bad our presidential candidates are because why presidential candidates are because why presidential candidates are because why on Earth there be two candidates one of on Earth there be two candidates one of on Earth there be two candidates one of whom has cognitive problems and the whom has cognitive problems and the whom has cognitive problems and the other of whom has judgment problems um other of whom has judgment problems um other of whom has judgment problems um these are the two biggest issues with a these are the two biggest issues with a these are the two biggest issues with a nuclear launch judgment and cognition nuclear launch judgment and cognition nuclear launch judgment and cognition and so where's the you know and so where's the you know and so where's the you know youngish um youngish um youngish um thoughtful forward-looking

wise wise dedicated civil servant running for dedicated civil servant running for dedicated civil servant running for president I know know that sounds you president I know know that sounds you president I know know that sounds you know Fantastical but I wish it weren't know Fantastical but I wish it weren't know Fantastical but I wish it weren't so that's one of the things you should so that's one of the things you should so that's one of the things you should really think about when voting for really think about when voting for really think about when voting for president is uh this scenario that we've president is uh this scenario that we've president is uh this scenario that we've been describing these six minutes been describing these six minutes been describing these six minutes imagine the man or woman sitting there 6 imagine the man or woman sitting there 6 imagine the man or woman sitting there 6 minutes waiting for the pot of minutes waiting for the pot of minutes waiting for the pot of coffee but I think about that issue coffee but I think about that issue coffee but I think about that issue with with any with any War right I mean with with any with any War right I mean with with any with any War right I mean prior to writing nuclear war a prior to writing nuclear war a prior to writing nuclear war a scenario I previously wrote six books scenario I previously wrote six books scenario I previously wrote six books on Military and intelligence programs on Military and intelligence programs on Military and intelligence programs designed to prevent nuclear war and I designed to prevent nuclear war and I designed to prevent nuclear war and I believe the president as believe the president as believe the president as commanderin-chief commanderin-chief commanderin-chief should be of the highest character should be of the highest character should be of the highest character possible because the the programs the possible because the the programs the possible because the the programs the wars that's that we have fought since wars that's that we have fought since wars that's that we have fought since World War II have all been you know how World War II have all been you know how World War II have all been you know how many octogenarian sources have I many octogenarian sources have I many octogenarian sources have I interviewed I'm talking about Nobel interviewed I'm talking about Nobel interviewed I'm talking about Nobel laurates and weapons designer and spy laurates and weapons designer and spy laurates and weapons designer and spy pilots and engineers in general they've pilots and engineers in general they've pilots and engineers in general they've all said to me with great pride you know all said to me with great pride you know all said to me with great pride you know we prevented World War II nuclear World we prevented World War II nuclear World we prevented World War II nuclear World War II right and that but that idea that War II right and that but that idea that War II right and that but that idea that the commanderin-chief and everyone in the commanderin-chief and everyone in the commanderin-chief and everyone in the in within the National Security the in within the National Security the in within the National Security apparatus should be making really good

apparatus should be making really good apparatus should be making really good decisions about about war it's the decisions about about war it's the decisions about about war it's the oldest cliche in the world that you know oldest cliche in the world that you know oldest cliche in the world that you know the the wars are fought by the young the the wars are fought by the young the the wars are fought by the young kids and that is it's not a cliche it's kids and that is it's not a cliche it's kids and that is it's not a cliche it's true and so the character part about the true and so the character part about the true and so the character part about the President should be in play whether President should be in play whether President should be in play whether we're thinking about nuclear war or any we're thinking about nuclear war or any we're thinking about nuclear war or any war in my war in my war in my opinion well uh I agree with you first opinion well uh I agree with you first opinion well uh I agree with you first of all but it feels like when nuclear of all but it feels like when nuclear of all but it feels like when nuclear war one person becomes like war one person becomes like war one person becomes like exponentially more important with uh exponentially more important with uh exponentially more important with uh regular War the decision to go to war or regular War the decision to go to war or regular War the decision to go to war or not not not advisers start mattering more there's advisers start mattering more there's advisers start mattering more there's judgment issues you could start to make judgment issues you could start to make judgment issues you could start to make Arguments Arguments Arguments for um sort of more leeway in terms of for um sort of more leeway in terms of for um sort of more leeway in terms of what kind of people we elect it seems what kind of people we elect it seems what kind of people we elect it seems like with nuclear war there's no leeway like with nuclear war there's no leeway like with nuclear war there's no leeway it's like one person can uh resist this it's like one person can uh resist this it's like one person can uh resist this uh uh the jamming the president Force uh uh the jamming the president Force uh uh the jamming the president Force the the war mongers the use like uh all the the war mongers the use like uh all the the war mongers the use like uh all the calculation involved considering the calculation involved considering the calculation involved considering what are the errors the mistakes the what are the errors the mistakes the what are the errors the mistakes the missiles flying over Russia the full missiles flying over Russia the full missiles flying over Russia the full dynamics of the geopolitics going on in dynamics of the geopolitics going on in dynamics of the geopolitics going on in the world consider all of humanity the the world consider all of humanity the the world consider all of humanity the history of humanity the future of history of humanity the future of history of humanity the future of humanity the your loved all all of it humanity the your loved all all of it humanity the your loved all all of it just loaded in to make decision then it just loaded in to make decision then it just loaded in to make decision then it becomes much more important that your becomes much more important that your becomes much more important that your cognitive abilities are strong and your cognitive abilities are strong and your cognitive abilities are strong and your judgment judgment judgment abilities

abilities abilities against against powerful wise people against against powerful wise people against against powerful wise people just as a human being are strong so I just as a human being are strong so I just as a human being are strong so I think that's something to really really think that's something to really really think that's something to really really consider when you vote for president but consider when you vote for president but consider when you vote for president but to which degree is it really on the to which degree is it really on the to which degree is it really on the president versus to the people advising president versus to the people advising president versus to the people advising oh no it's on the president the oh no it's on the president the oh no it's on the president the president has to make the call and that president has to make the call and that president has to make the call and that six-minute window happens so fast I mean six-minute window happens so fast I mean six-minute window happens so fast I mean the president is going to be being moved the president is going to be being moved the president is going to be being moved for part of that time the secret service for part of that time the secret service for part of that time the secret service is going to be you know up against up is going to be you know up against up is going to be you know up against up against stratcom stratcom saying we need against stratcom stratcom saying we need against stratcom stratcom saying we need launch you know we need the launch launch you know we need the launch launch you know we need the launch orders in the secret service is going to orders in the secret service is going to orders in the secret service is going to be saying we need to move the president be saying we need to move the president be saying we need to move the president so it's not as much that he's delegating so it's not as much that he's delegating so it's not as much that he's delegating the issues it's more like the issue is the issues it's more like the issue is the issues it's more like the issue is being postpone because there is only one being postpone because there is only one being postpone because there is only one issue for the president to say these issue for the president to say these issue for the president to say these targets you know for him to choose from targets you know for him to choose from targets you know for him to choose from the Denny's like menu okay this is what the Denny's like menu okay this is what the Denny's like menu okay this is what we're going to go with and then this we're going to go with and then this we're going to go with and then this astonishing thing happens the president astonishing thing happens the president astonishing thing happens the president pulls you know takes out his wallet he pulls you know takes out his wallet he pulls you know takes out his wallet he has a card in it that's colloquially has a card in it that's colloquially has a card in it that's colloquially called the biscuit and that card with called the biscuit and that card with called the biscuit and that card with the codes matches up an item in the the the codes matches up an item in the the the codes matches up an item in the the briefcase in the in the briefcase in the in the briefcase in the in the football that then is received by an football that then is received by an football that then is received by an officer underneath the bunk underneath officer underneath the bunk underneath officer underneath the bunk underneath the Pentagon in that bunker it's a call the Pentagon in that bunker it's a call the Pentagon in that bunker it's a call and response Lex it's like you know and response Lex it's like you know and response Lex it's like you know Alpha Zeta and right that's it and that Alpha Zeta and right that's it and that Alpha Zeta and right that's it and that then back so that the individual in the then back so that the individual in the then back so that the individual in the bunker realizes they are getting the bunker realizes they are getting the bunker realizes they are getting the command from the president and then that

command from the president and then that command from the president and then that order is passed to order is passed to order is passed to stratcom and stratcom the commander of stratcom and stratcom the commander of stratcom and stratcom the commander of stratcom and I interviewed a former stratcom and I interviewed a former stratcom and I interviewed a former commander of stratcom commander of commander of stratcom commander of commander of stratcom commander of stratcom then follows orders which is he stratcom then follows orders which is he stratcom then follows orders which is he delivers the launch orders to the delivers the launch orders to the delivers the launch orders to the nuclear nuclear nuclear Triad and what's done is Triad and what's done is Triad and what's done is done what would you do if you were the done what would you do if you were the done what would you do if you were the commander of stratcom in that situation commander of stratcom in that situation commander of stratcom in that situation what would you do cuz I I like my gut what would you do cuz I I like my gut what would you do cuz I I like my gut react right now if you just thrw me in react right now if you just thrw me in react right now if you just thrw me in there I would refuse orders okay so good there I would refuse orders okay so good there I would refuse orders okay so good question I asked that exact question to question I asked that exact question to question I asked that exact question to one of my very helpful sources on the one of my very helpful sources on the one of my very helpful sources on the book Dr Glenn mcdu who is at Los Alamos book Dr Glenn mcdu who is at Los Alamos book Dr Glenn mcdu who is at Los Alamos and who for a while was the classified M and who for a while was the classified M and who for a while was the classified M they have a a museum that's classified they have a a museum that's classified they have a a museum that's classified within the lab and he was the historian within the lab and he was the historian within the lab and he was the historian in charge of it right so he's a nuclear in charge of it right so he's a nuclear in charge of it right so he's a nuclear weapons engineer he worked on Star Wars weapons engineer he worked on Star Wars weapons engineer he worked on Star Wars during the Reagan Era and and he does a during the Reagan Era and and he does a during the Reagan Era and and he does a lot having to do with the history of Los lot having to do with the history of Los lot having to do with the history of Los Alamos and the by the way the Alamos and the by the way the Alamos and the by the way the Oppenheimer movie really cuz I've Oppenheimer movie really cuz I've Oppenheimer movie really cuz I've reported on nuclear weapons for you know reported on nuclear weapons for you know reported on nuclear weapons for you know 12 years now and Oppenheimer movie had a 12 years now and Oppenheimer movie had a 12 years now and Oppenheimer movie had a very to me positive impact on Los Al's very to me positive impact on Los Al's very to me positive impact on Los Al's transparency with people like me they transparency with people like me they transparency with people like me they had a real willingness to share had a real willingness to share had a real willingness to share information I think before perhaps they information I think before perhaps they information I think before perhaps they were on their heels feeling they needed were on their heels feeling they needed were on their heels feeling they needed to be on the defensive but now they're

to be on the defensive but now they're to be on the defensive but now they're much more forthcoming they were super much more forthcoming they were super much more forthcoming they were super helpful I can tell you the origin story helpful I can tell you the origin story helpful I can tell you the origin story of the football which they Declassified of the football which they Declassified of the football which they Declassified for the book but uh I asked this for the book but uh I asked this for the book but uh I asked this question to Dr Glenn McDuff right like question to Dr Glenn McDuff right like question to Dr Glenn McDuff right like in a different manner I said is there a in a different manner I said is there a in a different manner I said is there a chance that the stratcom commander would chance that the stratcom commander would chance that the stratcom commander would defy orders and he defy orders and he defy orders and he said Annie you have a better chance said Annie you have a better chance said Annie you have a better chance winning winning winning Powerball why do you think what's his Powerball why do you think what's his Powerball why do you think what's his intuition behind that you don't wind up intuition behind that you don't wind up intuition behind that you don't wind up as stratcom Commander unless you are as stratcom Commander unless you are as stratcom Commander unless you are someone who follows someone who follows someone who follows orders you follow orders you don't think orders you follow orders you don't think orders you follow orders you don't think there's a deep Humanity there that there's a deep Humanity there that there's a deep Humanity there that because his his intuition is about because his his intuition is about because his his intuition is about everything we know so far but this everything we know so far but this everything we know so far but this situation has never happened in the situation has never happened in the situation has never happened in the history of Earth well this is Trick and history of Earth well this is Trick and history of Earth well this is Trick and all right so you're raising a really all right so you're raising a really all right so you're raising a really tricky interesting conundrum here tricky interesting conundrum here tricky interesting conundrum here because during Co because during Co because during Co when President Trump and the leader of when President Trump and the leader of when President Trump and the leader of North Korea were kind of locked North Korea were kind of locked North Korea were kind of locked in various relationships with one in various relationships with one in various relationships with one another good bad threatening another good bad threatening another good bad threatening non-threatening friendly just bananas non-threatening friendly just bananas non-threatening friendly just bananas you might say like not presidential you might say like not presidential you might say like not presidential Behavior if you were someone watching Behavior if you were someone watching Behavior if you were someone watching C-SPAN like I do nerding out on what C-SPAN like I do nerding out on what C-SPAN like I do nerding out on what stratcom was actually saying about all stratcom was actually saying about all stratcom was actually saying about all this you noticed that com commanders this you noticed that com commanders this you noticed that com commanders were speaking out publicly to

were speaking out publicly to were speaking out publicly to Congress more so than ever I had ever Congress more so than ever I had ever Congress more so than ever I had ever seen before and this issue came up would seen before and this issue came up would seen before and this issue came up would you defy presidential orders so the you defy presidential orders so the you defy presidential orders so the caveat I would say to mcduff's answer of caveat I would say to mcduff's answer of caveat I would say to mcduff's answer of easier to win win the power ball right easier to win win the power ball right easier to win win the power ball right um is um is um is that if the commander of stratcom that if the commander of stratcom that if the commander of stratcom interpreted the president's Behavior to interpreted the president's Behavior to interpreted the president's Behavior to to to to be unreliable to be unreliable to be unreliable to be non-presidential be non-presidential be non-presidential then dot dot dot but now you're into then dot dot dot but now you're into then dot dot dot but now you're into some really radical some really radical some really radical territory well I territory well I territory well I mean mean mean fundamentally it feels like just looking fundamentally it feels like just looking fundamentally it feels like just looking at all the presidents of the United at all the presidents of the United at all the presidents of the United States in my lifetime it feels like none States in my lifetime it feels like none States in my lifetime it feels like none of them are qualified for this 6 minutes of them are qualified for this 6 minutes of them are qualified for this 6 minutes so like I could so like I could so like I could see uh you know I I could I could see as see uh you know I I could I could see as see uh you know I I could I could see as being the commander of a track being being the commander of a track being being the commander of a track being like this guy like basically respecting like this guy like basically respecting like this guy like basically respecting no president I I know you're supposed to no president I I know you're supposed to no president I I know you're supposed to commander-in-chief but in this commander-in-chief but in this commander-in-chief but in this situation saying like I mean everybody situation saying like I mean everybody situation saying like I mean everybody Bush Obama Trump Biden if I was a Bush Obama Trump Biden if I was a Bush Obama Trump Biden if I was a commander of St would be like this what commander of St would be like this what commander of St would be like this what does this guy know about any of this um does this guy know about any of this um does this guy know about any of this um it I would defy orders I mean in this it I would defy orders I mean in this it I would defy orders I mean in this situation when the the the the the situation when the the the the the situation when the the the the the future of human civilization hangs in

future of human civilization hangs in future of human civilization hangs in the balance I mean the balance I mean the balance I mean it to be the person that says yes launch it to be the person that says yes launch it to be the person that says yes launch it's no matter what I just can't see a it's no matter what I just can't see a it's no matter what I just can't see a human being on Earth being able to do human being on Earth being able to do human being on Earth being able to do that in the United States of America that in the United States of America that in the United States of America that's a hell of a decision like this is that's a hell of a decision like this is that's a hell of a decision like this is it it well but now you've raised a great it it well but now you've raised a great it it well but now you've raised a great important you know present essentially important you know present essentially important you know present essentially because what you're saying is people be because what you're saying is people be because what you're saying is people be aware right be aware of like why you're aware right be aware of like why you're aware right be aware of like why you're voting or why certain individuals are voting or why certain individuals are voting or why certain individuals are being escalated to even being able to being escalated to even being able to being escalated to even being able to run for president what does that mean run for president what does that mean run for president what does that mean why are people in America not more why are people in America not more why are people in America not more involved as Citizens do we have a involved as Citizens do we have a involved as Citizens do we have a responsibility for that because you've responsibility for that because you've responsibility for that because you've opened up the door for people to opened up the door for people to opened up the door for people to understand okay the ultimate thing is understand okay the ultimate thing is understand okay the ultimate thing is the is the nuclear launch decision so if the is the nuclear launch decision so if the is the nuclear launch decision so if a person can't be trusted with that you a person can't be trusted with that you a person can't be trusted with that you know everything spiral everything unre know everything spiral everything unre know everything spiral everything unre Noels from there also I want to look up Noels from there also I want to look up Noels from there also I want to look up who's the commander of stratom who's the commander of stratom who's the commander of stratom now um speaking of which you've now um speaking of which you've now um speaking of which you've interviewed a lot of experts for this interviewed a lot of experts for this interviewed a lot of experts for this book is there uh some commonalities book is there uh some commonalities book is there uh some commonalities about the way you've talked about this a about the way you've talked about this a about the way you've talked about this a little bit but in in the way they see little bit but in in the way they see little bit but in in the way they see this whole situation what what like this whole situation what what like this whole situation what what like scares them the most scares them the most scares them the most about uh this whole system and uh the about uh this whole system and uh the about uh this whole system and uh the whole possibility of nuclear war I first whole possibility of nuclear war I first whole possibility of nuclear war I first first learned about nuclear weapons from first learned about nuclear weapons from first learned about nuclear weapons from a guy called Al odonnell who appears in a guy called Al odonnell who appears in a guy called Al odonnell who appears in my earlier books because I interviewed

my earlier books because I interviewed my earlier books because I interviewed him for over a period of four and a half him for over a period of four and a half him for over a period of four and a half years because he was an engineer who years because he was an engineer who years because he was an engineer who actually wired nuclear bombs in the actually wired nuclear bombs in the actually wired nuclear bombs in the 1950s he was a member of the Manhattan 1950s he was a member of the Manhattan 1950s he was a member of the Manhattan Project in 1946 worked on operation Project in 1946 worked on operation Project in 1946 worked on operation Crossroads the first explosions of Crossroads the first explosions of Crossroads the first explosions of nuclear bombs after the war ended after nuclear bombs after the war ended after nuclear bombs after the war ended after World War War I ended and went on to arm World War War I ended and went on to arm World War War I ended and went on to arm wire and fire 186 out of the 200 some wire and fire 186 out of the 200 some wire and fire 186 out of the 200 some odd atmospheric nuclear tests that the odd atmospheric nuclear tests that the odd atmospheric nuclear tests that the United States did before this was banned United States did before this was banned United States did before this was banned and so I learned from him the power of and so I learned from him the power of and so I learned from him the power of these weapons right and I learned from these weapons right and I learned from these weapons right and I learned from him this very almost nationalistic idea him this very almost nationalistic idea him this very almost nationalistic idea about how important it was to have about how important it was to have about how important it was to have nuclear weapons and while I learned a nuclear weapons and while I learned a nuclear weapons and while I learned a lot about his human side I also saw saw lot about his human side I also saw saw lot about his human side I also saw saw the side of him that was very cold war the side of him that was very cold war the side of him that was very cold war Warrior right and then so he was kind of Warrior right and then so he was kind of Warrior right and then so he was kind of the first and then I don't know there the first and then I don't know there the first and then I don't know there have been a hundred people that have have been a hundred people that have have been a hundred people that have been directly involved in nuclear been directly involved in nuclear been directly involved in nuclear weapons along the way Billy wall who was weapons along the way Billy wall who was weapons along the way Billy wall who was my subject of my main my main sort of my subject of my main my main sort of my subject of my main my main sort of central figure in a book I wrote about central figure in a book I wrote about central figure in a book I wrote about the cia's paramilitary called surprise the cia's paramilitary called surprise the cia's paramilitary called surprise kill vanish and W Halo jumped um a kill vanish and W Halo jumped um a kill vanish and W Halo jumped um a tactical nuclear weapon into the Nevada tactical nuclear weapon into the Nevada tactical nuclear weapon into the Nevada test site with a small team almost test site with a small team almost test site with a small team almost unknown to anyone right only recently unknown to anyone right only recently unknown to anyone right only recently Declassified and so his position was

Declassified and so his position was Declassified and so his position was like tactical nuclear weapons may end up like tactical nuclear weapons may end up like tactical nuclear weapons may end up being used so I'm trying to speak here being used so I'm trying to speak here being used so I'm trying to speak here to the scope of different people I have to the scope of different people I have to the scope of different people I have interviewed over over the years right interviewed over over the years right interviewed over over the years right and what has happened is as as we're as and what has happened is as as we're as and what has happened is as as we're as I've gotten closer to the present day I've gotten closer to the present day I've gotten closer to the present day you know in you know in you know in there seems to be a growing movement there seems to be a growing movement there seems to be a growing movement from some of these cold Warriors off the from some of these cold Warriors off the from some of these cold Warriors off the position of nuclear weapons make us position of nuclear weapons make us position of nuclear weapons make us great and strong great and strong great and strong toward something must be done to reduce toward something must be done to reduce toward something must be done to reduce this this this threat how much do you threat how much do you threat how much do you know uh in the same way that you know know uh in the same way that you know know uh in the same way that you know about the United States how much do you about the United States how much do you about the United States how much do you know about the Russian side maybe the know about the Russian side maybe the know about the Russian side maybe the Chinese side uh India and Pakistan that Chinese side uh India and Pakistan that Chinese side uh India and Pakistan that all of this like what how their thinking all of this like what how their thinking all of this like what how their thinking differs perhaps yes well for that you differs perhaps yes well for that you differs perhaps yes well for that you you want to go to The Experts right so you want to go to The Experts right so you want to go to The Experts right so in for Russia for in for Russia for in for Russia for example um there's a guy called pavle example um there's a guy called pavle example um there's a guy called pavle podvig who is probably the West's top podvig who is probably the West's top podvig who is probably the West's top expert on Russian nuclear expert on Russian nuclear expert on Russian nuclear forces he works in parallel with the UN forces he works in parallel with the UN forces he works in parallel with the UN he also studied in Moscow and he he also studied in Moscow and he he also studied in Moscow and he interviewed so my information comes from interviewed so my information comes from interviewed so my information comes from him right like you do all the footwork him right like you do all the footwork him right like you do all the footwork to know what questions to ask and then to know what questions to ask and then to know what questions to ask and then you take the very specific questions to

you take the very specific questions to you take the very specific questions to him and I learned from him about how the him and I learned from him about how the him and I learned from him about how the Russian command and control goes down Russian command and control goes down Russian command and control goes down and it's very similar to ours because and it's very similar to ours because and it's very similar to ours because America and Russia have been at sort of America and Russia have been at sort of America and Russia have been at sort of nuclear dueling with one another um for nuclear dueling with one another um for nuclear dueling with one another um for 75 years now and so everything we have 75 years now and so everything we have 75 years now and so everything we have they have right with the exception of we they have right with the exception of we they have right with the exception of we have a great satellite system and they have a great satellite system and they have a great satellite system and they have a super flawed one there's just have a super flawed one there's just have a super flawed one there's just called Tundra and even um pav podvig called Tundra and even um pav podvig called Tundra and even um pav podvig admitted that there are serious flaws in admitted that there are serious flaws in admitted that there are serious flaws in tundra uh the Russian satellite system tundra uh the Russian satellite system tundra uh the Russian satellite system for example can mistake sunlight for for example can mistake sunlight for for example can mistake sunlight for Flames can mistake clouds for a nuclear Flames can mistake clouds for a nuclear Flames can mistake clouds for a nuclear launch this is a fact okay and um you launch this is a fact okay and um you launch this is a fact okay and um you know what was interesting in know what was interesting in know what was interesting in interviewing him was also this recent interviewing him was also this recent interviewing him was also this recent very very dangerous shift in nuclear very very dangerous shift in nuclear very very dangerous shift in nuclear Russian nuclear policy which is this Russian nuclear policy which is this Russian nuclear policy which is this many Russian experts will tell you that many Russian experts will tell you that many Russian experts will tell you that Russia has always maintained that it Russia has always maintained that it Russia has always maintained that it never had a launch on warning policy now never had a launch on warning policy now never had a launch on warning policy now I don't know if I believe that's true I don't know if I believe that's true I don't know if I believe that's true but I'm just telling you what they say but I'm just telling you what they say but I'm just telling you what they say and this is coming from the generals the and this is coming from the generals the and this is coming from the generals the Cold War generals in Soviet Russia Cold War generals in Soviet Russia Cold War generals in Soviet Russia saying oh no no no we would wait they saying oh no no no we would wait they saying oh no no no we would wait they were kind of playing the noble Warrior were kind of playing the noble Warrior were kind of playing the noble Warrior we would wait to absorb a nuclear attack we would wait to absorb a nuclear attack we would wait to absorb a nuclear attack until we launched okay so many Americans until we launched okay so many Americans until we launched okay so many Americans you know experts will tell you that you know experts will tell you that you know experts will tell you that that's just posturing in propaganda but that's just posturing in propaganda but that's just posturing in propaganda but that was their official position and that was their official position and that was their official position and that changed just two years ago when

that changed just two years ago when that changed just two years ago when Putin gave a speech and he said that Putin gave a speech and he said that Putin gave a speech and he said that their position had changed that they their position had changed that they their position had changed that they will no longer wait to absorb an attack will no longer wait to absorb an attack will no longer wait to absorb an attack that they once they that they once they that they once they learn of how did he phrase it he called learn of how did he phrase it he called learn of how did he phrase it he called it like the the the trajectory of the it like the the the trajectory of the it like the the the trajectory of the missiles right which is a way of of S missiles right which is a way of of S missiles right which is a way of of S talking about parody the same way we see talking about parody the same way we see talking about parody the same way we see the missile coming over in midc with the missile coming over in midc with the missile coming over in midc with Putin made that same statement and said Putin made that same statement and said Putin made that same statement and said we would launch what do you know of the we would launch what do you know of the we would launch what do you know of the way Putin thinks about nuclear weapons way Putin thinks about nuclear weapons way Putin thinks about nuclear weapons and nuclear war is it just something to and nuclear war is it just something to and nuclear war is it just something to allude to in a speech or do you think he allude to in a speech or do you think he allude to in a speech or do you think he contemplates the possibilities of contemplates the possibilities of contemplates the possibilities of nuclear nuclear nuclear war I don't know but if I had to guess war I don't know but if I had to guess war I don't know but if I had to guess it would go like this I would look at it would go like this I would look at it would go like this I would look at his background and he comes from the his background and he comes from the his background and he comes from the intelligence world right so my intelligence world right so my intelligence world right so my experience in experience in experience in interviewing oldtimers who spent decades interviewing oldtimers who spent decades interviewing oldtimers who spent decades working for the CIA or even nro or working for the CIA or even nro or working for the CIA or even nro or NSA I know the way they think from NSA I know the way they think from NSA I know the way they think from having spent hundreds of hours having spent hundreds of hours having spent hundreds of hours interviewing them right and then I know interviewing them right and then I know interviewing them right and then I know the way that you know military men think the way that you know military men think the way that you know military men think and it's very different right so Putin's and it's very different right so Putin's and it's very different right so Putin's not a military person per se he's an not a military person per se he's an not a military person per se he's an intelligence officer so what con would intelligence officer so what con would intelligence officer so what con would concern concern me there if I had to concern concern me there if I had to concern concern me there if I had to guess about his mindset has to do with guess about his mindset has to do with guess about his mindset has to do with paranoia right most Intelligence paranoia right most Intelligence paranoia right most Intelligence Officers must have a degree of healthy Officers must have a degree of healthy Officers must have a degree of healthy paranoia or they're going to wind up paranoia or they're going to wind up paranoia or they're going to wind up dead right and so that's not a great

dead right and so that's not a great dead right and so that's not a great quality to have you would be more quality to have you would be more quality to have you would be more trigger happy perhaps so you're more you trigger happy perhaps so you're more you trigger happy perhaps so you're more you would be more prone to respond to would be more prone to respond to would be more prone to respond to erroneous signals and and you'd be erroneous signals and and you'd be erroneous signals and and you'd be suspicious and you can see that now suspicious and you can see that now suspicious and you can see that now there's a such a you know there's a such a you know there's a such a you know incredible distrust and and and sort of incredible distrust and and and sort of incredible distrust and and and sort of real conflict real conflict real conflict between Russia between its leader and between Russia between its leader and between Russia between its leader and NATO between its leader and all of the NATO between its leader and all of the NATO between its leader and all of the West and then that is fueled by his West and then that is fueled by his West and then that is fueled by his closest closest closest advisers um kind of you know seem they advisers um kind of you know seem they advisers um kind of you know seem they seem to be from the statements they have seem to be from the statements they have seem to be from the statements they have made that I've read in Translation they made that I've read in Translation they made that I've read in Translation they seem to be fostering that same idea that seem to be fostering that same idea that seem to be fostering that same idea that you know NATO really has it in for you know NATO really has it in for you know NATO really has it in for Russia the America really has it in and Russia the America really has it in and Russia the America really has it in and that is so dangerous and disheartening that is so dangerous and disheartening that is so dangerous and disheartening and perhaps makes it less likely that and perhaps makes it less likely that and perhaps makes it less likely that the president would pick up the phone the president would pick up the phone the president would pick up the phone and talk to the other president and or and talk to the other president and or and talk to the other president and or that the close advisors near the that the close advisors near the that the close advisors near the president would make that happen you president would make that happen you president would make that happen you were talking about the procedure with were talking about the procedure with were talking about the procedure with the football is there any concern for the football is there any concern for the football is there any concern for cyber attacks for sort of security cyber attacks for sort of security cyber attacks for sort of security concerns of uh every level here false concerns of uh every level here false concerns of uh every level here false signals errors uh shutting down the the signals errors uh shutting down the the signals errors uh shutting down the the channels of communication through cyber channels of communication through cyber channels of communication through cyber attacks all that kind of stuff so to

attacks all that kind of stuff so to attacks all that kind of stuff so to answer those questions I interviewed a answer those questions I interviewed a answer those questions I interviewed a number of people but most specifically number of people but most specifically number of people but most specifically General tohill who was Obama's cyber General tohill who was Obama's cyber General tohill who was Obama's cyber Chief and he was actually America's Chief and he was actually America's Chief and he was actually America's first cyber first cyber first cyber Chief and the nuclear command and Chief and the nuclear command and Chief and the nuclear command and control system and really the control system and really the control system and really the Triad functions on a on analog systems Triad functions on a on analog systems Triad functions on a on analog systems they it functions on Old School Systems they it functions on Old School Systems they it functions on Old School Systems if there's not digital interface you if there's not digital interface you if there's not digital interface you can't hack into it right so most of the can't hack into it right so most of the can't hack into it right so most of the issues that I raise in the book have to issues that I raise in the book have to issues that I raise in the book have to do with what happens to cyber after a do with what happens to cyber after a do with what happens to cyber after a nuclear attack attack right what happens nuclear attack attack right what happens nuclear attack attack right what happens to cyber in the minutes after um a bomb to cyber in the minutes after um a bomb to cyber in the minutes after um a bomb a nuclear weapon strikes America and how a nuclear weapon strikes America and how a nuclear weapon strikes America and how that that that impacts the ability for people to impacts the ability for people to impacts the ability for people to communicate with one another and that's communicate with one another and that's communicate with one another and that's when when when chaos takes chaos takes chaos takes control well let let's talk about it uh control well let let's talk about it uh control well let let's talk about it uh so God so God so God forbid if a nuclear weapon reaches its forbid if a nuclear weapon reaches its forbid if a nuclear weapon reaches its Target what Target what Target what happens what uh perhaps you could say happens what uh perhaps you could say happens what uh perhaps you could say what you think would be the first Target what you think would be the first Target what you think would be the first Target hit would it be the hit would it be the hit would it be the Pentagon I was told by many people I Pentagon I was told by many people I Pentagon I was told by many people I interviewed that the biggest fear in interviewed that the biggest fear in interviewed that the biggest fear in Washington DC is what's called a bolt Washington DC is what's called a bolt Washington DC is what's called a bolt outof the blue attack that's an unwarned

outof the blue attack that's an unwarned outof the blue attack that's an unwarned nuclear attack against Washington DC the nuclear attack against Washington DC the nuclear attack against Washington DC the target would be the Pentagon and that's target would be the Pentagon and that's target would be the Pentagon and that's what I begin the scenario with you know what I begin the scenario with you know what I begin the scenario with you know and I reported in graphic horrifying and I reported in graphic horrifying and I reported in graphic horrifying detail what happens because I don't know detail what happens because I don't know detail what happens because I don't know what's worse me writing that all out or what's worse me writing that all out or what's worse me writing that all out or the fact that it's all the fact that it's all the fact that it's all documented by the defense department I documented by the defense department I documented by the defense department I mean they have been documenting the mean they have been documenting the mean they have been documenting the effect of nuclear weapons on people and effect of nuclear weapons on people and effect of nuclear weapons on people and animals and things since the earliest animals and things since the earliest animals and things since the earliest days of the Cold War and all of the days of the Cold War and all of the days of the Cold War and all of the details I pull are from these documents details I pull are from these documents details I pull are from these documents like the effects of nuclear weapons like the effects of nuclear weapons like the effects of nuclear weapons um and again this document was the um and again this document was the um and again this document was the original information the original data original information the original data original information the original data in this document come from hoshima in this document come from hoshima in this document come from hoshima Nagasaki right it was all classified and Nagasaki right it was all classified and Nagasaki right it was all classified and then it was built upon by those 200 some then it was built upon by those 200 some then it was built upon by those 200 some OD atmospheric nuclear weapons test we OD atmospheric nuclear weapons test we OD atmospheric nuclear weapons test we did um and you know we're talking about did um and you know we're talking about did um and you know we're talking about like millimeters and inches we're like millimeters and inches we're like millimeters and inches we're talking about the defense department talking about the defense department talking about the defense department knowing that oh 7 and2 miles out the knowing that oh 7 and2 miles out the knowing that oh 7 and2 miles out the upholstery on cars will spontaneously upholstery on cars will spontaneously upholstery on cars will spontaneously combust the pine needles will catch on combust the pine needles will catch on combust the pine needles will catch on fire they will start more fires you know fire they will start more fires you know fire they will start more fires you know you have all kinds of mayam and Cha you have all kinds of mayam and Cha you have all kinds of mayam and Cha chaos happening um based on reported chaos happening um based on reported chaos happening um based on reported facts from facts from facts from observations and this is really shocking

observations and this is really shocking observations and this is really shocking and grotesque at the same time so one and grotesque at the same time so one and grotesque at the same time so one Warhead reaches the Pentagon everybody Warhead reaches the Pentagon everybody Warhead reaches the Pentagon everybody in the Pentagon in the Pentagon in the Pentagon perishes perishes perishes 180 million degrees the fireball on a 180 million degrees the fireball on a 180 million degrees the fireball on a one Megaton nuclear weapon is 19 one Megaton nuclear weapon is 19 one Megaton nuclear weapon is 19 football fields of fire think about that football fields of fire think about that football fields of fire think about that nothing nothing nothing remains nothing remains and there's then remains nothing remains and there's then remains nothing remains and there's then a radius a radius a radius where people die immediately and then where people die immediately and then where people die immediately and then there's people that are dead when found there's people that are dead when found there's people that are dead when found and then there's uh people that will die and then there's uh people that will die and then there's uh people that will die slowly yes the Centric rings and again slowly yes the Centric rings and again slowly yes the Centric rings and again Rings defined by defense scientists but Rings defined by defense scientists but Rings defined by defense scientists but before that you know the bomb goes off before that you know the bomb goes off before that you know the bomb goes off then there's this blast wave that's like then there's this blast wave that's like then there's this blast wave that's like several hundred miles an hour pushing several hundred miles an hour pushing several hundred miles an hour pushing out like a bulldozer knocking everything out like a bulldozer knocking everything out like a bulldozer knocking everything down Bridges buildings I mean you can down Bridges buildings I mean you can down Bridges buildings I mean you can read FEMA uh manuals about what the read FEMA uh manuals about what the read FEMA uh manuals about what the rubble will be like you're talking about rubble will be like you're talking about rubble will be like you're talking about 30 ft deep Rubble as the buildings go 30 ft deep Rubble as the buildings go 30 ft deep Rubble as the buildings go over six 7 8 10 miles over six 7 8 10 miles over six 7 8 10 miles out that speaks nothing of the mega out that speaks nothing of the mega out that speaks nothing of the mega fires that will then ensue so once all fires that will then ensue so once all fires that will then ensue so once all these people die and third degree these people die and third degree these people die and third degree radiation Burns Burns did you even know radiation Burns Burns did you even know radiation Burns Burns did you even know there was such a thing as fourth degree there was such a thing as fourth degree there was such a thing as fourth degree radiation Burns right we're talking

radiation Burns right we're talking radiation Burns right we're talking about the wind ripping the skin off about the wind ripping the skin off about the wind ripping the skin off people's faces many miles out um and people's faces many miles out um and people's faces many miles out um and then you have a me a sucking action then you have a me a sucking action then you have a me a sucking action right everyone is or many people are right everyone is or many people are right everyone is or many people are familiar with what the nuclear mushroom familiar with what the nuclear mushroom familiar with what the nuclear mushroom cloud looks like and its cloud looks like and its cloud looks like and its stem is actually creates and again this stem is actually creates and again this stem is actually creates and again this is from you know physicists who advis is from you know physicists who advis is from you know physicists who advis the defense department on this the the defense department on this the the defense department on this the sucking up into the nuclear stem 300 M sucking up into the nuclear stem 300 M sucking up into the nuclear stem 300 M hour winds you're talking about people hour winds you're talking about people hour winds you're talking about people miles out getting sucked up into that miles out getting sucked up into that miles out getting sucked up into that stem when you see the mushroom cloud Lex stem when you see the mushroom cloud Lex stem when you see the mushroom cloud Lex that is in a nuclear war that would be that is in a nuclear war that would be that is in a nuclear war that would be people those are like the remnants of people those are like the remnants of people those are like the remnants of people and of things in the cloud 30 40 people and of things in the cloud 30 40 people and of things in the cloud 30 40 mile wide mushroom mile wide mushroom mile wide mushroom cloud blocking out the Sun and that cloud blocking out the Sun and that cloud blocking out the Sun and that speaks nothing of the radiation speaks nothing of the radiation speaks nothing of the radiation poisoning that follows and then the poisoning that follows and then the poisoning that follows and then the power grid goes power grid goes power grid goes out basically everything we rely on in out basically everything we rely on in out basically everything we rely on in terms of uh systems in our way of life terms of uh systems in our way of life terms of uh systems in our way of life goes up out you write quote those who goes up out you write quote those who goes up out you write quote those who somehow managed to escape death by the somehow managed to escape death by the somehow managed to escape death by the initial blast shock wave and Firestorm initial blast shock wave and Firestorm initial blast shock wave and Firestorm suddenly realize an Insidious truth suddenly realize an Insidious truth suddenly realize an Insidious truth about nuclear war that they're entirely about nuclear war that they're entirely about nuclear war that they're entirely on their own here begins a quote fight on their own here begins a quote fight on their own here begins a quote fight for food and for food and for food and water I mean that is um a wakeup call on top of a wakeup call

um a wakeup call on top of a wakeup call that we go back to a kind of primitive that we go back to a kind of primitive that we go back to a kind of primitive fight for survival each on their fight for survival each on their fight for survival each on their own and by the way those details were own and by the way those details were own and by the way those details were given to me by Obama's FEMA director given to me by Obama's FEMA director given to me by Obama's FEMA director Craig Fugate who was in charge of um so Craig Fugate who was in charge of um so Craig Fugate who was in charge of um so FEMA is the agency in America that plans FEMA is the agency in America that plans FEMA is the agency in America that plans for nuclear war okay and what fug Fugate for nuclear war okay and what fug Fugate for nuclear war okay and what fug Fugate said to me was you know Annie we plan said to me was you know Annie we plan said to me was you know Annie we plan for asteroid strikes these are called for asteroid strikes these are called for asteroid strikes these are called Low probability but High consequence Low probability but High consequence Low probability but High consequence events and FEMA is the organization that events and FEMA is the organization that events and FEMA is the organization that you know when there's a hurricane or an you know when there's a hurricane or an you know when there's a hurricane or an earthquake or a flood FEMA steps in and earthquake or a flood FEMA steps in and earthquake or a flood FEMA steps in and they do what's called population they do what's called population they do what's called population protection planning right they take care protection planning right they take care protection planning right they take care of people and what Fugate told me is of people and what Fugate told me is of people and what Fugate told me is after a nuclear strike after a bolt out after a nuclear strike after a bolt out after a nuclear strike after a bolt out of the blue attack he used those terms of the blue attack he used those terms of the blue attack he used those terms there is no population protection there is no population protection there is no population protection everyone's dead right and he means that everyone's dead right and he means that everyone's dead right and he means that metaphorically but also kind of more metaphorically but also kind of more metaphorically but also kind of more literally because he just said at that literally because he just said at that literally because he just said at that point you you just hope that you stalked point you you just hope that you stalked point you you just hope that you stalked Pedialite what do you think happens to Pedialite what do you think happens to Pedialite what do you think happens to humans like how does uh human nature humans like how does uh human nature humans like how does uh human nature manifest itself in such conditions do manifest itself in such conditions do manifest itself in such conditions do you think like brutality will come out you think like brutality will come out you think like brutality will come out like people like people like people will just for survival will steal will will just for survival will steal will will just for survival will steal will murder murder murder will I can't imagine that not happening will I can't imagine that not happening will I can't imagine that not happening I think that's why people love I think that's why people love I think that's why people love post-apocalyptic television shows and post-apocalyptic television shows and post-apocalyptic television shows and films because they see that and then of

films because they see that and then of films because they see that and then of course there's always one great course there's always one great course there's always one great charismatic person who's trying to charismatic person who's trying to charismatic person who's trying to restore morality and these are great restore morality and these are great restore morality and these are great narratives that people like to tell narratives that people like to tell narratives that people like to tell themselves in the world of science themselves in the world of science themselves in the world of science fiction but what we're dealing with is fiction but what we're dealing with is fiction but what we're dealing with is science fact in this scenario and it is science fact in this scenario and it is science fact in this scenario and it is meant to terrify people into realizing meant to terrify people into realizing meant to terrify people into realizing wait a minute this is a conversation wait a minute this is a conversation wait a minute this is a conversation that absolutely should be have had while that absolutely should be have had while that absolutely should be have had while it can still be had because the it can still be had because the it can still be had because the realities when you have the direct a realities when you have the direct a realities when you have the direct a FEMA telling you this it's a real wakeup FEMA telling you this it's a real wakeup FEMA telling you this it's a real wakeup call and by the way Craig Fugate was call and by the way Craig Fugate was call and by the way Craig Fugate was so transparently human with me and I so transparently human with me and I so transparently human with me and I quote him directly in the book but he quote him directly in the book but he quote him directly in the book but he spoke about you asked me earlier about spoke about you asked me earlier about spoke about you asked me earlier about like what would be going through the like what would be going through the like what would be going through the president's mind and we don't know I president's mind and we don't know I president's mind and we don't know I don't know but Craig Fugate told me what don't know but Craig Fugate told me what don't know but Craig Fugate told me what would be going through his mind and he would be going through his mind and he would be going through his mind and he said along the lines I'm paraphrasing said along the lines I'm paraphrasing said along the lines I'm paraphrasing like it's almost something you couldn't like it's almost something you couldn't like it's almost something you couldn't even comprehend you would just it would even comprehend you would just it would even comprehend you would just it would just like ruin you you know his words just like ruin you you know his words just like ruin you you know his words are really powerful and of course the are really powerful and of course the are really powerful and of course the FEMA director in the scenario is FEMA director in the scenario is FEMA director in the scenario is notified in that first window while the notified in that first window while the notified in that first window while the launch you know while the ballistic launch you know while the ballistic launch you know while the ballistic missile is on its way and no one in missile is on its way and no one in missile is on its way and no one in America yet knows and I have the FEMA America yet knows and I have the FEMA America yet knows and I have the FEMA director pull over to the side of the director pull over to the side of the director pull over to the side of the road and jump in a helicopter that's road and jump in a helicopter that's road and jump in a helicopter that's sent for him to take him to the bunker sent for him to take him to the bunker sent for him to take him to the bunker that FEMA goes to which is called Mount that FEMA goes to which is called Mount that FEMA goes to which is called Mount weather and so he's aware that Fugate

weather and so he's aware that Fugate weather and so he's aware that Fugate was aware that as FEMA director you was aware that as FEMA director you was aware that as FEMA director you would likely be taken to a safe place would likely be taken to a safe place would likely be taken to a safe place however many hours you're going to be however many hours you're going to be however many hours you're going to be safe um or days or maybe weeks or maybe safe um or days or maybe weeks or maybe safe um or days or maybe weeks or maybe months but as I also learned from the months but as I also learned from the months but as I also learned from the Cyber people I interviewed that you know Cyber people I interviewed that you know Cyber people I interviewed that you know there's a complete fallacy that these there's a complete fallacy that these there's a complete fallacy that these military bases can continue functioning military bases can continue functioning military bases can continue functioning they run on diesel fuel and when the they run on diesel fuel and when the they run on diesel fuel and when the fuel stops pumping there's no more fuel stops pumping there's no more fuel stops pumping there's no more generators electricity's generators electricity's generators electricity's gone uh uh gone uh uh gone uh uh communication lines are all communication lines are all communication lines are all gone the food gone the food gone the food supply all of it the all the supply supply all of it the all the supply supply all of it the all the supply chains is chains is chains is gone um it's terrifying and that's just gone um it's terrifying and that's just gone um it's terrifying and that's just in the first few days first few in the first few days first few in the first few days first few hours uh in part five you describe the hours uh in part five you describe the hours uh in part five you describe the 24 months and Beyond after this first 24 months and Beyond after this first 24 months and Beyond after this first hour we've been talking about so what hour we've been talking about so what hour we've been talking about so what happens to Earth what happens to humans happens to Earth what happens to humans happens to Earth what happens to humans MH if a full-on nuclear war happens MH if a full-on nuclear war happens MH if a full-on nuclear war happens MH so for MH so for MH so for that I was super privileged to talk to that I was super privileged to talk to that I was super privileged to talk to Professor Brian tun who is one of the Professor Brian tun who is one of the Professor Brian tun who is one of the original five authors of the nuclear original five authors of the nuclear original five authors of the nuclear winter winter winter Theory and the that theory was developed Theory and the that theory was developed Theory and the that theory was developed in was published in 19 in the early in was published in 19 in the early in was published in 19 in the early 1980s one of Professor tun's professors 1980s one of Professor tun's professors 1980s one of Professor tun's professors was Carl Sean who was of the most famous

was Carl Sean who was of the most famous was Carl Sean who was of the most famous author of the nuclear winter Theory and author of the nuclear winter Theory and author of the nuclear winter Theory and you know there were all kinds of you know there were all kinds of you know there were all kinds of controversies about it when it came out controversies about it when it came out controversies about it when it came out including the defense department saying including the defense department saying including the defense department saying it was Soviet propaganda which it wasn't it was Soviet propaganda which it wasn't it was Soviet propaganda which it wasn't and what the nuclear winter author and what the nuclear winter author and what the nuclear winter author authors conceded back in the 80s was authors conceded back in the 80s was authors conceded back in the 80s was that their modeling was just the best it that their modeling was just the best it that their modeling was just the best it could be based on what they had at the could be based on what they had at the could be based on what they had at the time and so now Flash Forward to where time and so now Flash Forward to where time and so now Flash Forward to where we are in 20 24 and talking to Professor we are in 20 24 and talking to Professor we are in 20 24 and talking to Professor ton who's been working on this issue for ton who's been working on this issue for ton who's been working on this issue for all these decades since he shared with all these decades since he shared with all these decades since he shared with me how the climate models today with the me how the climate models today with the me how the climate models today with the systems we have the computer systems systems we have the computer systems systems we have the computer systems reveal that actually nuclear winter is reveal that actually nuclear winter is reveal that actually nuclear winter is worse right so to answer your worse right so to answer your worse right so to answer your questions the bombs stopped falling in questions the bombs stopped falling in questions the bombs stopped falling in my scenario 72 minutes after they first my scenario 72 minutes after they first my scenario 72 minutes after they first launch the bomb stopped falling and then launch the bomb stopped falling and then launch the bomb stopped falling and then then the mega fires begin each nuclear then the mega fires begin each nuclear then the mega fires begin each nuclear weapon will have according to the weapon will have according to the weapon will have according to the defense department a mega fire that will defense department a mega fire that will defense department a mega fire that will burn between 300 square miles so a th000 burn between 300 square miles so a th000 burn between 300 square miles so a th000 weapons 1500 weapons think about those weapons 1500 weapons think about those weapons 1500 weapons think about those mega fires everything is burning Forest mega fires everything is burning Forest mega fires everything is burning Forest cities pyro think about the pyrro toxins cities pyro think about the pyrro toxins cities pyro think about the pyrro toxins in all the cities you know highrise is in all the cities you know highrise is in all the cities you know highrise is burning and all of this soot gets lofted burning and all of this soot gets lofted burning and all of this soot gets lofted into the air according to tune into the air according to tune into the air according to tune some

some some 300 billion pounds of soot and what 300 billion pounds of soot and what 300 billion pounds of soot and what happens it blocks out the Sun and happens it blocks out the Sun and happens it blocks out the Sun and without Sun we have nuclear winter we without Sun we have nuclear winter we without Sun we have nuclear winter we have a situation whereby ice sheets have a situation whereby ice sheets have a situation whereby ice sheets form you're talking about bodies of form you're talking about bodies of form you're talking about bodies of water in places like Iowa being frozen water in places like Iowa being frozen water in places like Iowa being frozen for 10 years the temperature drops for 10 years the temperature drops for 10 years the temperature drops temperature temperature temperature plummets right right and there are all plummets right right and there are all plummets right right and there are all kinds of papers that have been written kinds of papers that have been written kinds of papers that have been written about this using modern calcul you know about this using modern calcul you know about this using modern calcul you know systems and the numbers vary but the systems and the numbers vary but the systems and the numbers vary but the bottom line is agriculture fails mhm bottom line is agriculture fails mhm bottom line is agriculture fails mhm Foods obviously uh Foods obviously uh Foods obviously uh dies uh so the agriculture system dies uh so the agriculture system dies uh so the agriculture system completely shuts down so the food completely shuts down so the food completely shuts down so the food sources shut down so there's no food sources shut down so there's no food sources shut down so there's no food there's no sun temperature drops there's no sun temperature drops there's no sun temperature drops completely no completely no completely no electricity and we haven't even even electricity and we haven't even even electricity and we haven't even even spoken of radiation poisoning because spoken of radiation poisoning because spoken of radiation poisoning because you know the radiation poisoning kills you know the radiation poisoning kills you know the radiation poisoning kills many people in the aftermath of the many people in the aftermath of the many people in the aftermath of the nuclear the nuclear exchange but after nuclear the nuclear exchange but after nuclear the nuclear exchange but after the nuclear freeze ends after nuclear the nuclear freeze ends after nuclear the nuclear freeze ends after nuclear winter you know after the Sun starts to winter you know after the Sun starts to winter you know after the Sun starts to come back let's say 8 nine 10 years um come back let's say 8 nine 10 years um come back let's say 8 nine 10 years um now you have no ozone layer or you have now you have no ozone layer or you have now you have no ozone layer or you have a severely depleted ozone layer and so a severely depleted ozone layer and so a severely depleted ozone layer and so the sun's rays are now poisonous so you the sun's rays are now poisonous so you the sun's rays are now poisonous so you have people living underground and you have people living underground and you have people living underground and you have this great thawing and with that have this great thawing and with that have this great thawing and with that great thawing comes pathogens and plague

great thawing comes pathogens and plague great thawing comes pathogens and plague and you have this you know system where and you have this you know system where and you have this you know system where the small-bodied animals the insects and the small-bodied animals the insects and the small-bodied animals the insects and whatnot begin reproducing really fast whatnot begin reproducing really fast whatnot begin reproducing really fast and the larger body animals like you and and the larger body animals like you and and the larger body animals like you and me begin to go extinct Professor ton me begin to go extinct Professor ton me begin to go extinct Professor ton said it to me this way you know he said said it to me this way you know he said said it to me this way you know he said 66 million years ago an asteroid hit 66 million years ago an asteroid hit 66 million years ago an asteroid hit Earth killed all the dinosaurs and wiped Earth killed all the dinosaurs and wiped Earth killed all the dinosaurs and wiped out out out 70% of the species and nuclear war would 70% of the species and nuclear war would 70% of the species and nuclear war would likely do the same and so here we are likely do the same and so here we are likely do the same and so here we are talking about this because there is a talking about this because there is a talking about this because there is a difference there's nothing you can do difference there's nothing you can do difference there's nothing you can do about an asteroid but there is something about an asteroid but there is something about an asteroid but there is something you can do about a nuclear you can do about a nuclear you can do about a nuclear war do you think it's possible that some war do you think it's possible that some war do you think it's possible that some humans will survive all of this so if we humans will survive all of this so if we humans will survive all of this so if we look I mean how long would it look I mean how long would it look I mean how long would it be uh would it be decades would it be be uh would it be decades would it be be uh would it be decades would it be centuries centuries centuries before the you start to before the you start to before the you start to have Earth starts to have the capacity have Earth starts to have the capacity have Earth starts to have the capacity to grow food to grow food to grow food again Carl Sean talked about that in his again Carl Sean talked about that in his again Carl Sean talked about that in his this amazing book that he wrote with two this amazing book that he wrote with two this amazing book that he wrote with two scientist colleagues called the cold in scientist colleagues called the cold in scientist colleagues called the cold in the dark and they and they have there's the dark and they and they have there's the dark and they and they have there's a bunch of essays about exactly this a bunch of essays about exactly this a bunch of essays about exactly this right like how what would happen and how right like how what would happen and how right like how what would happen and how how long would it take it's really how long would it take it's really how long would it take it's really interesting it's dated you know it's interesting it's dated you know it's interesting it's dated you know it's from the 80s but man is it shocking and from the 80s but man is it shocking and from the 80s but man is it shocking and you think about that where okay so Men you think about that where okay so Men you think about that where okay so Men return to sort of the worst most base return to sort of the worst most base return to sort of the worst most base versions of themselves civilization is versions of themselves civilization is versions of themselves civilization is on right meaning you know Civil Society

on right meaning you know Civil Society on right meaning you know Civil Society there's no rule of law it's just fend there's no rule of law it's just fend there's no rule of law it's just fend for yourself there's you know people for yourself there's you know people for yourself there's you know people fighting over what little resources fighting over what little resources fighting over what little resources there are man returns to a hunter there are man returns to a hunter there are man returns to a hunter gatherer State and to really think about gatherer State and to really think about gatherer State and to really think about this idea I looked at uh the oldest this idea I looked at uh the oldest this idea I looked at uh the oldest known archaeological site in the world known archaeological site in the world known archaeological site in the world in Turkey which is called gockley tapy in Turkey which is called gockley tapy in Turkey which is called gockley tapy and it's really fascinating to me and it's really fascinating to me and it's really fascinating to me because I interviewed one of the two because I interviewed one of the two because I interviewed one of the two archaeologists who first found this site archaeologists who first found this site archaeologists who first found this site in the early in the early in the early 90s and the lead archaeologist was a a 90s and the lead archaeologist was a a 90s and the lead archaeologist was a a guy named clous Schmidt and Michael guy named clous Schmidt and Michael guy named clous Schmidt and Michael morch was the young graduate student who morch was the young graduate student who morch was the young graduate student who was with him and Mora's description of was with him and Mora's description of was with him and Mora's description of like coming AC upon this like rumored to like coming AC upon this like rumored to like coming AC upon this like rumored to be site there was something called a be site there was something called a be site there was something called a wishing tree on the site which I just wishing tree on the site which I just wishing tree on the site which I just found so human and perfect that it was found so human and perfect that it was found so human and perfect that it was this magical place and it was locatable this magical place and it was locatable this magical place and it was locatable because there was a wishing tree on a because there was a wishing tree on a because there was a wishing tree on a hill and it's where people went to wish hill and it's where people went to wish hill and it's where people went to wish and to Hope that their wishes came true and to Hope that their wishes came true and to Hope that their wishes came true I mean how human is that right and that I mean how human is that right and that I mean how human is that right and that is where beneath the wishing tree kind is where beneath the wishing tree kind is where beneath the wishing tree kind of like in the shadow of the wishing of like in the shadow of the wishing of like in the shadow of the wishing tree there was a t which is a hill um tree there was a t which is a hill um tree there was a t which is a hill um and beneath that there is the oldest and beneath that there is the oldest and beneath that there is the oldest known civilization in the world 12,000 known civilization in the world 12,000 known civilization in the world 12,000 years ago a group of hunter gatherers years ago a group of hunter gatherers years ago a group of hunter gatherers built this site why we don't know but I built this site why we don't know but I built this site why we don't know but I imagined when through Mora's imagined when through Mora's imagined when through Mora's descriptions of coming upon like you descriptions of coming upon like you descriptions of coming upon like you know he tripped on a rock he told me know he tripped on a rock he told me know he tripped on a rock he told me right he tripped over a stone that right he tripped over a stone that right he tripped over a stone that turned out to be the the top part of a

turned out to be the the top part of a turned out to be the the top part of a 12,000 yearold sculpted man giant pillar 12,000 yearold sculpted man giant pillar 12,000 yearold sculpted man giant pillar right and he talked about coming upon right and he talked about coming upon right and he talked about coming upon that and then no one knows really what that and then no one knows really what that and then no one knows really what gobec Lee was for and that makes my mind gobec Lee was for and that makes my mind gobec Lee was for and that makes my mind try and answer your o the question you try and answer your o the question you try and answer your o the question you asked me internally right just as like a asked me internally right just as like a asked me internally right just as like a human who's here on Earth for the amount human who's here on Earth for the amount human who's here on Earth for the amount of time I'm here like if if there were a of time I'm here like if if there were a of time I'm here like if if there were a nuclear war what would it be like what nuclear war what would it be like what nuclear war what would it be like what what would it be like when someone in what would it be like when someone in what would it be like when someone in the future some would we become the future some would we become the future some would we become archaeologist one day would civilization archaeologist one day would civilization archaeologist one day would civilization rebuild would we develop computers who rebuild would we develop computers who rebuild would we develop computers who knows it's interesting to think about I knows it's interesting to think about I knows it's interesting to think about I hope we never have to what would we hope we never have to what would we hope we never have to what would we remember about this time right it is remember about this time right it is remember about this time right it is terrifying to think that most of it will terrifying to think that most of it will terrifying to think that most of it will be be be forgotten everything we kind of assume forgotten everything we kind of assume forgotten everything we kind of assume will not be forgotten we think maybe will not be forgotten we think maybe will not be forgotten we think maybe some of the technological developments some of the technological developments some of the technological developments will be forgotten but we assume like will be forgotten but we assume like will be forgotten but we assume like some of History won't be forgotten but some of History won't be forgotten but some of History won't be forgotten but realistically especially the US realistically especially the US realistically especially the US descending into primitive descending into primitive descending into primitive survival probably everything since the survival probably everything since the survival probably everything since the Industrial Age will be forgotten like Industrial Age will be forgotten like Industrial Age will be forgotten like everything maybe some religious ideas everything maybe some religious ideas everything maybe some religious ideas will persist some stories and myths will will persist some stories and myths will will persist some stories and myths will persist but like all the wisdom we've persist but like all the wisdom we've persist but like all the wisdom we've gathered higher level sort of gathered higher level sort of gathered higher level sort of technological wisdom would be gone technological wisdom would be gone technological wisdom would be gone like that's terrifying to think about like that's terrifying to think about like that's terrifying to think about and like maybe even as you touch on the

and like maybe even as you touch on the and like maybe even as you touch on the very facts of nuclear war might be very facts of nuclear war might be very facts of nuclear war might be forgotten like the lessons of nuclear forgotten like the lessons of nuclear forgotten like the lessons of nuclear war might be forgotten that there are war might be forgotten that there are war might be forgotten that there are these weapons sort of the obvious these weapons sort of the obvious these weapons sort of the obvious elephant in the room would be one of the elephant in the room would be one of the elephant in the room would be one of the things that's completely forgotten or things that's completely forgotten or things that's completely forgotten or become so vague in the recollection of become so vague in the recollection of become so vague in the recollection of humans that humans that humans that our understanding will uh change it's our understanding will uh change it's our understanding will uh change it's almost as if a god descended on Earth almost as if a god descended on Earth almost as if a god descended on Earth and destroyed everything maybe that's and destroyed everything maybe that's and destroyed everything maybe that's how it will persist sort of like how it will persist sort of like how it will persist sort of like mythological interpretation of what mythological interpretation of what mythological interpretation of what nuclear weapons are that's terrifying nuclear weapons are that's terrifying nuclear weapons are that's terrifying because then it it could repeat again because then it it could repeat again because then it it could repeat again mhm but I think for me the idea of mhm but I think for me the idea of mhm but I think for me the idea of the what is buried becomes very the what is buried becomes very the what is buried becomes very interesting and very human and the and interesting and very human and the and interesting and very human and the and in a strange way way optimistic and in a strange way way optimistic and in a strange way way optimistic and positive because if you can visualize positive because if you can visualize positive because if you can visualize that wishing tree and I have a picture that wishing tree and I have a picture that wishing tree and I have a picture of it in the book from one of the of it in the book from one of the of it in the book from one of the archaeologists who work on that right archaeologists who work on that right archaeologists who work on that right you you think what were they wishing you you think what were they wishing you you think what were they wishing what were they wishing for right and what were they wishing for right and what were they wishing for right and then you think of your own self what do then you think of your own self what do then you think of your own self what do I wish for in this world right because I wish for in this world right because I wish for in this world right because you know I do think all you know I do think all you know I do think all things come from what happens you know things come from what happens you know things come from what happens you know metaphorically around the dinner table metaphorically around the dinner table metaphorically around the dinner table right like what people put there eyes on right like what people put there eyes on right like what people put there eyes on becomes interesting and expanse what becomes interesting and expanse what becomes interesting and expanse what people talk about um and ultimately when people talk about um and ultimately when people talk about um and ultimately when you think about the long Arc of time and

you think about the long Arc of time and you think about the long Arc of time and human civilization it does kind of make human civilization it does kind of make human civilization it does kind of make you want to communicate more with your you want to communicate more with your you want to communicate more with your enemies with your enemies with your enemies with your adversaries and you know I think about adversaries and you know I think about adversaries and you know I think about the quote what Einstein is said to have the quote what Einstein is said to have the quote what Einstein is said to have said which is that he was said which is that he was said which is that he was asked what weapons World War three would asked what weapons World War three would asked what weapons World War three would be fought with and he be fought with and he be fought with and he said I don't know but I know that World said I don't know but I know that World said I don't know but I know that World War 4 will be fought with sticks and War 4 will be fought with sticks and War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones let me ask you about the great stones let me ask you about the great stones let me ask you about the great filter when you look filter when you look filter when you look up into our galaxy into our up into our galaxy into our up into our galaxy into our universe look up at the universe look up at the universe look up at the sky do you think uh there's other alien sky do you think uh there's other alien sky do you think uh there's other alien civilizations that are contending with civilizations that are contending with civilizations that are contending with some similar question questions and some similar question questions and some similar question questions and perhaps the reason we have not perhaps the reason we have not perhaps the reason we have not definitively seen alien civilizations is definitively seen alien civilizations is definitively seen alien civilizations is because the others have failed to find a because the others have failed to find a because the others have failed to find a solution to this great filter something solution to this great filter something solution to this great filter something like nuclear weapons I'm not sure I'm going have to weapons I'm not sure I'm going have to think about that question but what I what does come to question but what I what does come to mind is an answer that was given to me mind is an answer that was given to me mind is an answer that was given to me similarly right but similarly right but similarly right but by a man by Ed Mitchell who went to the by a man by Ed Mitchell who went to the by a man by Ed Mitchell who went to the moon right um and he was the sixth man moon right um and he was the sixth man moon right um and he was the sixth man to walk on the to walk on the to walk on the moon and so his opinion I think might

moon and so his opinion I think might moon and so his opinion I think might count a little more than mine on that count a little more than mine on that count a little more than mine on that subject because his lens is so much subject because his lens is so much subject because his lens is so much greater right and Mitchell greater right and Mitchell greater right and Mitchell was vilified when he got back from the was vilified when he got back from the was vilified when he got back from the Moon because it became known that he Moon because it became known that he Moon because it became known that he believed in believed in believed in things like extrasensory things like extrasensory things like extrasensory perception and this kind of perception and this kind of perception and this kind of mystical metaphysical way of looking at mystical metaphysical way of looking at mystical metaphysical way of looking at the world and he he really suffered from the world and he he really suffered from the world and he he really suffered from that I mean he was ridiculed and he lost that I mean he was ridiculed and he lost that I mean he was ridiculed and he lost a lot of his career and his friends but a lot of his career and his friends but a lot of his career and his friends but what he said to me in our what he said to me in our what he said to me in our interview about his trip interview about his trip interview about his trip home from the home from the home from the Moon answers that great filter question Moon answers that great filter question Moon answers that great filter question I think in an in a way I might want to I think in an in a way I might want to I think in an in a way I might want to adopt right which is which is this that adopt right which is which is this that adopt right which is which is this that he said he said he said that as they were returning from the that as they were returning from the that as they were returning from the Moon to Moon to Moon to Earth he looked down at the Earth and Earth he looked down at the Earth and Earth he looked down at the Earth and and I'm paraphrasing him I write all and I'm paraphrasing him I write all and I'm paraphrasing him I write all this in in phenomena an earlier book but this in in phenomena an earlier book but this in in phenomena an earlier book but he the paraphrasing is that he looked he the paraphrasing is that he looked he the paraphrasing is that he looked down from the earth and he and it was down from the earth and he and it was down from the earth and he and it was 1971 and he thought about all the 1971 and he thought about all the 1971 and he thought about all the conflict going on down below conflict going on down below conflict going on down below particularly the Vietnam War where many particularly the Vietnam War where many particularly the Vietnam War where many of his friends were and then he looked of his friends were and then he looked of his friends were and then he looked behind him into the great vast behind him into the great vast behind him into the great vast Galaxy and he had a moment he says that Galaxy and he had a moment he says that Galaxy and he had a moment he says that was like an epiphany like not a

was like an epiphany like not a was like an epiphany like not a near-death experience but a sort of near near-death experience but a sort of near near-death experience but a sort of near life experience right where he believed life experience right where he believed life experience right where he believed that the human consciousness which is that the human consciousness which is that the human consciousness which is where so much of this thoughtfulness where so much of this thoughtfulness where so much of this thoughtfulness about metaphysics about metaphysics about metaphysics and uh ESP perhaps come from Mitchell's and uh ESP perhaps come from Mitchell's and uh ESP perhaps come from Mitchell's theory was that human consciousness the theory was that human consciousness the theory was that human consciousness the the way to understand it was had the way to understand it was had the way to understand it was had something to do with realizing that something to do with realizing that something to do with realizing that man's inner life and man's outer life man's inner life and man's outer life man's inner life and man's outer life are deeply connected in the same way are deeply connected in the same way are deeply connected in the same way that man is connected to the that man is connected to the that man is connected to the Galaxy and he said it much more Galaxy and he said it much more Galaxy and he said it much more eloquently but you kind of get the idea eloquently but you kind of get the idea eloquently but you kind of get the idea that and I think it's why humans have that and I think it's why humans have that and I think it's why humans have always always love to look up right um always always love to look up right um always always love to look up right um that that there's more there and it's a that that there's more there and it's a that that there's more there and it's a bit like the wish it's like it's like bit like the wish it's like it's like bit like the wish it's like it's like the big version of the wishing tree you the big version of the wishing tree you the big version of the wishing tree you know what do I wish for for myself and know what do I wish for for myself and know what do I wish for for myself and what is maybe perhaps the the what is maybe perhaps the the what is maybe perhaps the the realignment of thinking for those of us realignment of thinking for those of us realignment of thinking for those of us in search of Happiness right and rather in search of Happiness right and rather in search of Happiness right and rather instead of war instead of war instead of war is is is um you know what does it mean to have a um you know what does it mean to have a um you know what does it mean to have a conscience to have conscience to have conscience to have Consciousness what does it mean to be a Consciousness what does it mean to be a Consciousness what does it mean to be a thinking person what does it mean to be thinking person what does it mean to be thinking person what does it mean to be on this Earth to Born to be born to live on this Earth to Born to be born to live on this Earth to Born to be born to live to die and then there is legacy and so to die and then there is legacy and so to die and then there is legacy and so all of those all of those all of those ideas

ideas ideas are I think Foster the kind of are I think Foster the kind of are I think Foster the kind of conversation that would that deescalate conversation that would that deescalate conversation that would that deescalate conflict yeah so in some deep way so the conflict yeah so in some deep way so the conflict yeah so in some deep way so the mysteries of what's out there when we mysteries of what's out there when we mysteries of what's out there when we look out to the look out to the look out to the Stars uh are the same Stars uh are the same Stars uh are the same Mysteries that uh we find in when trying Mysteries that uh we find in when trying Mysteries that uh we find in when trying to understand the human to understand the human to understand the human mind and they're they're coupled in some mind and they're they're coupled in some mind and they're they're coupled in some way for me thinking about alien way for me thinking about alien way for me thinking about alien civilizations out there is really the civilizations out there is really the civilizations out there is really the same kind of same kind of same kind of question which is what what are we what question which is what what are we what question which is what what are we what is this what what are we doing here how is this what what are we doing here how is this what what are we doing here how do we come do we come do we come here why does it seem to be so magical here why does it seem to be so magical here why does it seem to be so magical and beautiful and Powerful now where is and beautiful and Powerful now where is and beautiful and Powerful now where is it it it going because it feels like we're going because it feels like we're going because it feels like we're really perhaps for the first time in really perhaps for the first time in really perhaps for the first time in history are in a moment where we can history are in a moment where we can history are in a moment where we can destroy ourselves and so naturally you destroy ourselves and so naturally you destroy ourselves and so naturally you ask well where's others like ask well where's others like ask well where's others like us is is it perhaps are we us is is it perhaps are we us is is it perhaps are we inevitably going to a place where we'll inevitably going to a place where we'll inevitably going to a place where we'll destroy ourselves is it basically destroy ourselves is it basically destroy ourselves is it basically inevitable that we destroy ourselves we inevitable that we destroy ourselves we inevitable that we destroy ourselves we become too become too become too powerful and not insufficiently wise to powerful and not insufficiently wise to powerful and not insufficiently wise to know what to do with that power but like you said probably the power but like you said probably the answers to that are in here we don't

answers to that are in here we don't answers to that are in here we don't need to look out need to look out need to look out there I'd love to ask you about the there I'd love to ask you about the there I'd love to ask you about the extra sensory uh perception you've extra sensory uh perception you've extra sensory uh perception you've written like you said the book phenomena written like you said the book phenomena written like you said the book phenomena on the secret history of the US on the secret history of the US on the secret history of the US government's investigations into government's investigations into government's investigations into extrasensory perception and extrasensory perception and extrasensory perception and psychokinesis uh what are some of the psychokinesis uh what are some of the psychokinesis uh what are some of the more interesting extrasensory abilities more interesting extrasensory abilities more interesting extrasensory abilities that were explored by the government and that were explored by the government and that were explored by the government and maybe just in general espb what is it maybe just in general espb what is it maybe just in general espb what is it what what do you know of it the book was what what do you know of it the book was what what do you know of it the book was so interesting to report because I spend so interesting to report because I spend so interesting to report because I spend so much time dealing with like so much time dealing with like so much time dealing with like mechanized systems machines war machines mechanized systems machines war machines mechanized systems machines war machines and yet the military and intelligence and yet the military and intelligence and yet the military and intelligence were and continue to be incredibly were and continue to be incredibly were and continue to be incredibly interesting Ed in the human mind in interesting Ed in the human mind in interesting Ed in the human mind in Consciousness and so you know if one is Consciousness and so you know if one is Consciousness and so you know if one is called hard science this what we're called hard science this what we're called hard science this what we're talking about now is called squishy talking about now is called squishy talking about now is called squishy science right and it was really science right and it was really science right and it was really interesting to delve into that world it interesting to delve into that world it interesting to delve into that world it just couldn't be farther from from just couldn't be farther from from just couldn't be farther from from weapons and war or could it right and weapons and war or could it right and weapons and war or could it right and then I really began thinking well before then I really began thinking well before then I really began thinking well before Science and Technology sort of the Science and Technology sort of the Science and Technology sort of the supernatural supernatural supernatural ruled the world you know the Oracle of ruled the world you know the Oracle of ruled the world you know the Oracle of Deli in Greece exists for the you know Deli in Greece exists for the you know Deli in Greece exists for the you know pre before the common error rulers to go pre before the common error rulers to go pre before the common error rulers to go and beg to learn from the powers that be and beg to learn from the powers that be and beg to learn from the powers that be what was going to happen right so what was going to happen right so what was going to happen right so all ESP programs I think pull from that

all ESP programs I think pull from that all ESP programs I think pull from that origin story right the the leaders origin story right the the leaders origin story right the the leaders desire to know um and so I really found desire to know um and so I really found desire to know um and so I really found it amazing that many people think these it amazing that many people think these it amazing that many people think these systems or rather these programs started systems or rather these programs started systems or rather these programs started in the 70s I learned they actually began in the 70s I learned they actually began in the 70s I learned they actually began right after World War I and that was right after World War I and that was right after World War I and that was because and here you know in my because and here you know in my because and here you know in my reporting I find all things sort of reporting I find all things sort of reporting I find all things sort of always Circle back to the Third Reich to always Circle back to the Third Reich to always Circle back to the Third Reich to the Nazis the Nazis had a massive uh the Nazis the Nazis had a massive uh the Nazis the Nazis had a massive uh occult program an ESP program uh occult program an ESP program uh occult program an ESP program uh psychokinesis program astrology both psychokinesis program astrology both psychokinesis program astrology both Hitler and himler were deeply interested Hitler and himler were deeply interested Hitler and himler were deeply interested in these occult Concepts and after I in these occult Concepts and after I in these occult Concepts and after I learned from records at the National learned from records at the National learned from records at the National Archives that after the war um you know Archives that after the war um you know Archives that after the war um you know the S half of everything went to the the S half of everything went to the the S half of everything went to the Soviet Union and I'm talking about the Soviet Union and I'm talking about the Soviet Union and I'm talking about the Trove of Nazi documents from which the Trove of Nazi documents from which the Trove of Nazi documents from which the superpowers were then going to learn to superpowers were then going to learn to superpowers were then going to learn to fight future Wars and half of them went fight future Wars and half of them went fight future Wars and half of them went to the United States and so we got this to the United States and so we got this to the United States and so we got this uh Trove of documents about all of this uh Trove of documents about all of this uh Trove of documents about all of this and the Soviets got the other and so it and the Soviets got the other and so it and the Soviets got the other and so it off a kind of psychic arms race which in off a kind of psychic arms race which in off a kind of psychic arms race which in a weird way paralleled the nuclear arms a weird way paralleled the nuclear arms a weird way paralleled the nuclear arms race which we've been talking about in race which we've been talking about in race which we've been talking about in as much that it led one side to as much that it led one side to as much that it led one side to constantly wonder what the other side constantly wonder what the other side constantly wonder what the other side had have they been able to find anything had have they been able to find anything had have they been able to find anything interesting in this uh squishy science

interesting in this uh squishy science interesting in this uh squishy science analysis of trying to uh see how the analysis of trying to uh see how the analysis of trying to uh see how the human mind could be used as a human mind could be used as a human mind could be used as a weapon the CIA most definitely weapon the CIA most definitely weapon the CIA most definitely believed from from my reading of the believed from from my reading of the believed from from my reading of the documents that there was something very documents that there was something very documents that there was something very legit shall we say about ESP it couldn't legit shall we say about ESP it couldn't legit shall we say about ESP it couldn't it was uncontrollable it was unreliable it was uncontrollable it was unreliable it was uncontrollable it was unreliable but nonetheless it existed and the and but nonetheless it existed and the and but nonetheless it existed and the and being the intelligence agency that they being the intelligence agency that they being the intelligence agency that they are they cared less about why it worked are they cared less about why it worked are they cared less about why it worked they just wanted to know how they could they just wanted to know how they could they just wanted to know how they could use it um and then it got into all kinds use it um and then it got into all kinds use it um and then it got into all kinds of elements of placebo effect and this of elements of placebo effect and this of elements of placebo effect and this you know and you know when the military you know and you know when the military you know and you know when the military stepped in and got involved in the stepped in and got involved in the stepped in and got involved in the programs that was a complete disaster in programs that was a complete disaster in programs that was a complete disaster in my opinion because the military needs to my opinion because the military needs to my opinion because the military needs to control everything in a mechanized control everything in a mechanized control everything in a mechanized systematic way and so they started for systematic way and so they started for systematic way and so they started for example teaching people to be psychic example teaching people to be psychic example teaching people to be psychic which is a really really really bad idea which is a really really really bad idea which is a really really really bad idea I mean um and you know Flash Forward to I mean um and you know Flash Forward to I mean um and you know Flash Forward to where we are today these programs still where we are today these programs still where we are today these programs still exists there's a Navy program which is exists there's a Navy program which is exists there's a Navy program which is working on based on a lot of data that working on based on a lot of data that working on based on a lot of data that came back from uh the war on terror with came back from uh the war on terror with came back from uh the war on terror with certain soldiers knowing you know wait certain soldiers knowing you know wait certain soldiers knowing you know wait don't walk down that path there is an don't walk down that path there is an don't walk down that path there is an IED there and they call this the spidey IED there and they call this the spidey IED there and they call this the spidey sense and they actually have a program sense and they actually have a program sense and they actually have a program that that works from this so these that that works from this so these that that works from this so these things never go away they kind of circle things never go away they kind of circle things never go away they kind of circle around in terms of you know being made around in terms of you know being made around in terms of you know being made fun of and then taken seriously and a fun of and then taken seriously and a fun of and then taken seriously and a little of this and of that um my biggest

little of this and of that um my biggest little of this and of that um my biggest takeaway from writing that book was a a takeaway from writing that book was a a takeaway from writing that book was a a quote that I that I referenced in the quote that I that I referenced in the quote that I that I referenced in the beginning which is the the Thomas beginning which is the the Thomas beginning which is the the Thomas theorem and it says if men Define theorem and it says if men Define theorem and it says if men Define situations as real they are real in situations as real they are real in situations as real they are real in their their their consequences yeah I mean Placebo as consequences yeah I mean Placebo as consequences yeah I mean Placebo as you've mentioned is a fascinating you've mentioned is a fascinating you've mentioned is a fascinating concept uh by the way a short plug I concept uh by the way a short plug I concept uh by the way a short plug I started listening to it Andrew huberman started listening to it Andrew huberman started listening to it Andrew huberman just released a uh podcast on Placebo just released a uh podcast on Placebo just released a uh podcast on Placebo the placebo effect does he know the the placebo effect does he know the the placebo effect does he know the origin story of placebo well we have to origin story of placebo well we have to origin story of placebo well we have to ask him are you ready for this ask him are you ready for this ask him are you ready for this CIA okay and not only that I can tell CIA okay and not only that I can tell CIA okay and not only that I can tell you that Doctor Henry beer M Harvard I you that Doctor Henry beer M Harvard I you that Doctor Henry beer M Harvard I think he was also at MIT for a bit um he think he was also at MIT for a bit um he think he was also at MIT for a bit um he came up with that term and you might came up with that term and you might came up with that term and you might even say for the even say for the even say for the CIA does that trouble you that so much CIA does that trouble you that so much CIA does that trouble you that so much of this is coming from the CIA first you of this is coming from the CIA first you of this is coming from the CIA first you mean the placebo concept or the placebo mean the placebo concept or the placebo mean the placebo concept or the placebo concept but a lot of the sort of concept but a lot of the sort of concept but a lot of the sort of uh scientific uh scientific uh scientific investigations listen I have such mixed investigations listen I have such mixed investigations listen I have such mixed feelings about the CIA as one should I feelings about the CIA as one should I feelings about the CIA as one should I think you should have mixed feelings think you should have mixed feelings think you should have mixed feelings about anything that you cover as a about anything that you cover as a about anything that you cover as a reporter or as a human because and maybe reporter or as a human because and maybe reporter or as a human because and maybe change that from mixed to you know change that from mixed to you know change that from mixed to you know conflicting right because there are conflicting right because there are conflicting right because there are there are really positive elements of there are really positive elements of there are really positive elements of every organization within the federal every organization within the federal every organization within the federal government I mean my first learning

government I mean my first learning government I mean my first learning about the CIA came from the work I did about the CIA came from the work I did about the CIA came from the work I did on the Area 51 book about their aerial on the Area 51 book about their aerial on the Area 51 book about their aerial reconnaissance programs which were set reconnaissance programs which were set reconnaissance programs which were set up again to prevent World War III right up again to prevent World War III right up again to prevent World War III right nuclear World War I it was this idea nuclear World War I it was this idea nuclear World War I it was this idea that information was King the U2 spy that information was King the U2 spy that information was King the U2 spy pain was developed out at are at Area 51 pain was developed out at are at Area 51 pain was developed out at are at Area 51 and I interviewed hervey Stockman the and I interviewed hervey Stockman the and I interviewed hervey Stockman the first man to fly over the Soviet Union first man to fly over the Soviet Union first man to fly over the Soviet Union in a U2 gathered all this intelligence in a U2 gathered all this intelligence in a U2 gathered all this intelligence prevented Wars later I wrote a book prevented Wars later I wrote a book prevented Wars later I wrote a book about the cia's paramilitary mhm about the cia's paramilitary mhm about the cia's paramilitary mhm surprise kill vanish so like just when I surprise kill vanish so like just when I surprise kill vanish so like just when I was thinking wow the CIA is doing all was thinking wow the CIA is doing all was thinking wow the CIA is doing all this amazing you know non-kinetic this amazing you know non-kinetic this amazing you know non-kinetic activity with aerial reconnaissance then activity with aerial reconnaissance then activity with aerial reconnaissance then you learn about their kill programs and you learn about their kill programs and you learn about their kill programs and that's a whole different set of issues that's a whole different set of issues that's a whole different set of issues it turns out as you write in that book it turns out as you write in that book it turns out as you write in that book that the CIA assassinates people that the CIA assassinates people that the CIA assassinates people sometimes and we'll talk about it uh but sometimes and we'll talk about it uh but sometimes and we'll talk about it uh but anyway like you said conflicting anyway like you said conflicting anyway like you said conflicting feelings mhm I mean I work with sources feelings mhm I mean I work with sources feelings mhm I mean I work with sources to report my books and to report my books and to report my books and so put yourself in my shoes right I so put yourself in my shoes right I so put yourself in my shoes right I interview for dozens or hundreds of interview for dozens or hundreds of interview for dozens or hundreds of hours my primary hours my primary hours my primary sources in the case of of the surprise K sources in the case of of the surprise K sources in the case of of the surprise K vanish book I traveled with Billy wall vanish book I traveled with Billy wall vanish book I traveled with Billy wall the longest serving CIA operator back to the longest serving CIA operator back to the longest serving CIA operator back to the scene of the crime you know back to the scene of the crime you know back to the scene of the crime you know back to the battle we went to Hanoi we went to the battle we went to Hanoi we went to the battle we went to Hanoi we went to Havana um and you really get to know

Havana um and you really get to know Havana um and you really get to know someone and that's when I say someone and that's when I say someone and that's when I say conflicting you know I work with sources conflicting you know I work with sources conflicting you know I work with sources on uh a real trust basis right and on uh a real trust basis right and on uh a real trust basis right and sometimes people will tell me things sometimes people will tell me things sometimes people will tell me things they'll say Annie this is this is off they'll say Annie this is this is off they'll say Annie this is this is off the record this is for you to know about the record this is for you to know about the record this is for you to know about me on deep background because I want you me on deep background because I want you me on deep background because I want you to know who I am and that's powerful and to know who I am and that's powerful and to know who I am and that's powerful and they a lot of times it's personal right they a lot of times it's personal right they a lot of times it's personal right it's personal it's about their personal it's personal it's about their personal it's personal it's about their personal life and they don't want that and and it life and they don't want that and and it life and they don't want that and and it it isn't appropo to what I'm writing it isn't appropo to what I'm writing it isn't appropo to what I'm writing about but but I need to know that and about but but I need to know that and about but but I need to know that and that's where it gets conflicted because that's where it gets conflicted because that's where it gets conflicted because you in a good way because you realize you in a good way because you realize you in a good way because you realize where we're all such creatures of our where we're all such creatures of our where we're all such creatures of our personal lives right so you have a personal lives right so you have a personal lives right so you have a professional life where your National professional life where your National professional life where your National Security are in your hands I don't know Security are in your hands I don't know Security are in your hands I don't know what that is like I wonder if you could what that is like I wonder if you could what that is like I wonder if you could just speak to that you've interviewed so just speak to that you've interviewed so just speak to that you've interviewed so many powerful people so many Fascinating many powerful people so many Fascinating many powerful people so many Fascinating People and as you've spoken about trust People and as you've spoken about trust People and as you've spoken about trust is fundamental to that so they open up is fundamental to that so they open up is fundamental to that so they open up and really show you into their and really show you into their and really show you into their world what does it take to do world what does it take to do world what does it take to do that I that I that I think think think willingness we were talking about trust willingness we were talking about trust willingness we were talking about trust earlier like you have to trust that earlier like you have to trust that earlier like you have to trust that there's I have to trust that there's a there's I have to trust that there's a there's I have to trust that there's a reason I find myself in a certain reason I find myself in a certain reason I find myself in a certain situation right otherwise it would just situation right otherwise it would just situation right otherwise it would just be a constant you know doubt Paradox be a constant you know doubt Paradox be a constant you know doubt Paradox right why am am I here what am I doing

right why am am I here what am I doing right why am am I here what am I doing um and so I trust that I'm going to um and so I trust that I'm going to um and so I trust that I'm going to learn something of value and so I'm learn something of value and so I'm learn something of value and so I'm willing to listen I really am willing to willing to listen I really am willing to willing to listen I really am willing to listen right um because and so far it's listen right um because and so far it's listen right um because and so far it's always always always proven you know my the expectations I proven you know my the expectations I proven you know my the expectations I might have going into something are might have going into something are might have going into something are dwarfed by the outcome because people dwarfed by the outcome because people dwarfed by the outcome because people are so interesting and because because are so interesting and because because are so interesting and because because the people that I interview because I the people that I interview because I the people that I interview because I write about war and weapons and National write about war and weapons and National write about war and weapons and National Security and government secrets and the Security and government secrets and the Security and government secrets and the people I interview are at the heart of people I interview are at the heart of people I interview are at the heart of all of this I mean they are really all of this I mean they are really all of this I mean they are really capable people capable people capable people intellectually brilliant physically intellectually brilliant physically intellectually brilliant physically capable they go so far out on the limb capable they go so far out on the limb capable they go so far out on the limb to do their jobs and by the way the to do their jobs and by the way the to do their jobs and by the way the reason they're talking to me is because reason they're talking to me is because reason they're talking to me is because they're still alive and so many of their they're still alive and so many of their they're still alive and so many of their colleagues are dead so it gives them colleagues are dead so it gives them colleagues are dead so it gives them also a wisdom about also a wisdom about also a wisdom about you know life about sacrifice not in you know life about sacrifice not in you know life about sacrifice not in cliche sort of nationalistic jingoistic cliche sort of nationalistic jingoistic cliche sort of nationalistic jingoistic terms whatsoever I'm talking like terms whatsoever I'm talking like terms whatsoever I'm talking like real real what is their real truth you real real what is their real truth you real real what is their real truth you know when I went to Vietnam with Billy know when I went to Vietnam with Billy know when I went to Vietnam with Billy w i mean so much of it was the details w i mean so much of it was the details w i mean so much of it was the details are just you know every detail right I are just you know every detail right I are just you know every detail right I mean starting with the fact that he he mean starting with the fact that he he mean starting with the fact that he he showed up at my house with a giant showed up at my house with a giant showed up at my house with a giant suitcase and a bunch of

suitcase and a bunch of suitcase and a bunch of clothes you know dry cleaning pressed clothes you know dry cleaning pressed clothes you know dry cleaning pressed clothes in plastic hangers carrying them clothes in plastic hangers carrying them clothes in plastic hangers carrying them I'm like Billy we're going to Vietnam I'm like Billy we're going to Vietnam I'm like Billy we're going to Vietnam and we're going back into the jungle to and we're going back into the jungle to and we're going back into the jungle to find the Oscar rate battle site like find the Oscar rate battle site like find the Oscar rate battle site like what are you what are you carrying right what are you what are you carrying right what are you what are you carrying right and he got really mad at me did not like and he got really mad at me did not like and he got really mad at me did not like anyone correcting him and I got my anyone correcting him and I got my anyone correcting him and I got my husband on the job like Kevin you got to husband on the job like Kevin you got to husband on the job like Kevin you got to sort this out right and what transpired sort this out right and what transpired sort this out right and what transpired was that Billy W had never never taken a was that Billy W had never never taken a was that Billy W had never never taken a trip for personal reasons he operated I trip for personal reasons he operated I trip for personal reasons he operated I think in 62 countries every single time think in 62 countries every single time think in 62 countries every single time for the CIA and it would go like this for the CIA and it would go like this for the CIA and it would go like this Billy go to there and get to there right Billy go to there and get to there right Billy go to there and get to there right and that's what he would do and when he and that's what he would do and when he and that's what he would do and when he arrived they whatever he needed he would arrived they whatever he needed he would arrived they whatever he needed he would just get you know it's not a fashion just get you know it's not a fashion just get you know it's not a fashion trip right so he had no idea how to pack trip right so he had no idea how to pack trip right so he had no idea how to pack for an overseas trip this was like oh my for an overseas trip this was like oh my for an overseas trip this was like oh my God how can you not have the hugest God how can you not have the hugest God how can you not have the hugest smile on your face going into this I smile on your face going into this I smile on your face going into this I with a guy who's 89 years old he's got with a guy who's 89 years old he's got with a guy who's 89 years old he's got eight bullet you know he's got he's had eight bullet you know he's got he's had eight bullet you know he's got he's had eight Purple Hearts from Vietnam right I eight Purple Hearts from Vietnam right I eight Purple Hearts from Vietnam right I mean he operated against Osama Bin Laden mean he operated against Osama Bin Laden mean he operated against Osama Bin Laden 10 years before 911 he went after Bin 10 years before 911 he went after Bin 10 years before 911 he went after Bin Laden in Afghanistan when he was 72 and Laden in Afghanistan when he was 72 and Laden in Afghanistan when he was 72 and he went after Gaddafi during the Arab he went after Gaddafi during the Arab he went after Gaddafi during the Arab Spring when he was 82 and now here he is Spring when he was 82 and now here he is Spring when he was 82 and now here he is with me going to Hanoi you know um the with me going to Hanoi you know um the with me going to Hanoi you know um the details those human details but the the details those human details but the the details those human details but the the my husband repacked his bag and uh with my husband repacked his bag and uh with my husband repacked his bag and uh with you know like got him a proper suitcase you know like got him a proper suitcase you know like got him a proper suitcase that was carryable and small and didn't that was carryable and small and didn't that was carryable and small and didn't have the hangers you know he wasn't have the hangers you know he wasn't have the hangers you know he wasn't trailing the hangers but it was the it

trailing the hangers but it was the it trailing the hangers but it was the it was the trip home in the taxi that I got was the trip home in the taxi that I got was the trip home in the taxi that I got this really big reveal this really big reveal this really big reveal um Billy reached into that small um Billy reached into that small um Billy reached into that small suitcase my husband had given him and suitcase my husband had given him and suitcase my husband had given him and pulled out a rolled up American pulled out a rolled up American pulled out a rolled up American flag and he had taken this flag cuz I flag and he had taken this flag cuz I flag and he had taken this flag cuz I had tried to help him pack and he had tried to help him pack and he had tried to help him pack and he wouldn't let me and I just thought it wouldn't let me and I just thought it wouldn't let me and I just thought it was like an old guy being starborn but was like an old guy being starborn but was like an old guy being starborn but he didn't want me to see that he was he didn't want me to see that he was he didn't want me to see that he was bringing an American flag to Vietnam bringing an American flag to Vietnam bringing an American flag to Vietnam which is not legal MH and he wanted to which is not legal MH and he wanted to which is not legal MH and he wanted to bring that flag and take it around bring that flag and take it around bring that flag and take it around everywhere with him as he explained to everywhere with him as he explained to everywhere with him as he explained to me later to honor all of his friends who me later to honor all of his friends who me later to honor all of his friends who died there 50 years ago and then when died there 50 years ago and then when died there 50 years ago and then when the trip was finished he gave me that the trip was finished he gave me that the trip was finished he gave me that flag and it's in my office and that's flag and it's in my office and that's flag and it's in my office and that's the kind of relationship that you can the kind of relationship that you can the kind of relationship that you can develop with people as a reporter if develop with people as a reporter if develop with people as a reporter if you're willing to go the extra mile with you're willing to go the extra mile with you're willing to go the extra mile with them to trust them that they'll tell you them to trust them that they'll tell you them to trust them that they'll tell you things of value and to me something like things of value and to me something like things of value and to me something like that is as of value as as any you know that is as of value as as any you know that is as of value as as any you know secret mission I'm able to get secret mission I'm able to get secret mission I'm able to get Declassified because we are a nation of Declassified because we are a nation of Declassified because we are a nation of people and probably there's a bunch of people and probably there's a bunch of people and probably there's a bunch of human details that you can't possibly human details that you can't possibly human details that you can't possibly Express in words things left unspoken Express in words things left unspoken Express in words things left unspoken but you saw in the silence exchange but you saw in the silence exchange but you saw in the silence exchange between the two of you the sadness the between the two of you the sadness the between the two of you the sadness the the maybe you could see in his face the maybe you could see in his face the maybe you could see in his face looking back at memories of uh the looking back at memories of uh the looking back at memories of uh the people he's lost all that kind of stuff people he's lost all that kind of stuff people he's lost all that kind of stuff all that kind of all that kind of all that kind of stuff uh you mentioned you wrote a book stuff uh you mentioned you wrote a book stuff uh you mentioned you wrote a book on Area

51 for people who don't know you've 51 for people who don't know you've written a lot about security the written a lot about security the written a lot about security the military Secrets all this kind of stuff military Secrets all this kind of stuff military Secrets all this kind of stuff so Area 51 is one of the so Area 51 is one of the so Area 51 is one of the legendary centers of all of these kinds legendary centers of all of these kinds legendary centers of all of these kinds of topics so high level first versus of topics so high level first versus of topics so high level first versus what is Area what is Area what is Area 51 as you understand it as you've 51 as you understand it as you've 51 as you understand it as you've written written written about the lore and the about the lore and the about the lore and the reality I think everybody wants to know reality I think everybody wants to know reality I think everybody wants to know about Area 51 because it kind of it's about Area 51 because it kind of it's about Area 51 because it kind of it's like this American Enigma you know it's like this American Enigma you know it's like this American Enigma you know it's like to some people it's the shangra LA like to some people it's the shangra LA like to some people it's the shangra LA of uh you know tested Aerospace programs of uh you know tested Aerospace programs of uh you know tested Aerospace programs right and to others it's the place of right and to others it's the place of right and to others it's the place of captured aliens right and everything in captured aliens right and everything in captured aliens right and everything in between I had the great Fortune of between I had the great Fortune of between I had the great Fortune of interview in interview in interview in 75 people who lived and worked at that 75 people who lived and worked at that 75 people who lived and worked at that base for extended periods of time uh base for extended periods of time uh base for extended periods of time uh mostly leading up to the 9s because mostly leading up to the 9s because mostly leading up to the 9s because everything since then is classified everything since then is classified everything since then is classified right so things get Declassified after right so things get Declassified after right so things get Declassified after decades not everything but some and that decades not everything but some and that decades not everything but some and that allows you to piece together stories so allows you to piece together stories so allows you to piece together stories so you talked to a lot of people that work you talked to a lot of people that work you talked to a lot of people that work there um what can you describe as the there um what can you describe as the there um what can you describe as the sort of the history of technological sort of the history of technological sort of the history of technological development that went on there I mean development that went on there I mean development that went on there I mean Area 51 is huge by the way and it's you Area 51 is huge by the way and it's you Area 51 is huge by the way and it's you know it's a secret it's a top secret know it's a secret it's a top secret know it's a secret it's a top secret military facility inside a top secret military facility inside a top secret military facility inside a top secret military facility inside the Nevada test military facility inside the Nevada test military facility inside the Nevada test and training range which is this massive and training range which is this massive and training range which is this massive not secret facility right so you're just

not secret facility right so you're just not secret facility right so you're just talking about layers talk about peeling talking about layers talk about peeling talking about layers talk about peeling the onion in reverse and it began as a the onion in reverse and it began as a the onion in reverse and it began as a place to test the U2 spy plane um and place to test the U2 spy plane um and place to test the U2 spy plane um and literally the CIA set up shop there to literally the CIA set up shop there to literally the CIA set up shop there to build this plane away away from the build this plane away away from the build this plane away away from the public eye and then that led to another public eye and then that led to another public eye and then that led to another um Espionage platform called the a12 um Espionage platform called the a12 um Espionage platform called the a12 oxcart which is you know anyone who's oxcart which is you know anyone who's oxcart which is you know anyone who's seen the X-Men movies knows about the seen the X-Men movies knows about the seen the X-Men movies knows about the SR71 but be and that's a two-seater SR71 but be and that's a two-seater SR71 but be and that's a two-seater right and before that that there was the right and before that that there was the right and before that that there was the a12 oxcart and that was the cia's a12 oxcart and that was the cia's a12 oxcart and that was the cia's stealth Mach 3 spy plane you know think stealth Mach 3 spy plane you know think stealth Mach 3 spy plane you know think about that in the early 1960s it's about that in the early 1960s it's about that in the early 1960s it's astonishing uh and I interviewed the astonishing uh and I interviewed the astonishing uh and I interviewed the pilots who flew it um what did they say pilots who flew it um what did they say pilots who flew it um what did they say about it my God I mean you know look I I about it my God I mean you know look I I about it my God I mean you know look I I describe in detail in Area 51 but also describe in detail in Area 51 but also describe in detail in Area 51 but also the the amazing thing Lex about that was the the amazing thing Lex about that was the the amazing thing Lex about that was that and you know I just look back on that and you know I just look back on that and you know I just look back on that with such fondness this is like in that with such fondness this is like in that with such fondness this is like in 2009 when I was reporting that and all 2009 when I was reporting that and all 2009 when I was reporting that and all many of the guys who were in their 80s many of the guys who were in their 80s many of the guys who were in their 80s and 90s were World War II Heroes like and 90s were World War II Heroes like and 90s were World War II Heroes like serious World War II Heroes like Colonel serious World War II Heroes like Colonel serious World War II Heroes like Colonel Slater who was the commander of Area 51 Slater who was the commander of Area 51 Slater who was the commander of Area 51 he flew the U2 on the what the missions he flew the U2 on the what the missions he flew the U2 on the what the missions called the black cat missions over China called the black cat missions over China called the black cat missions over China in the early in the early in the early 1960s to see about their lnor nuclear 1960s to see about their lnor nuclear 1960s to see about their lnor nuclear facility right so all of these things facility right so all of these things facility right so all of these things tie in when you're reporting on Military tie in when you're reporting on Military tie in when you're reporting on Military um and intelligence programs but that

um and intelligence programs but that um and intelligence programs but that these guys had been World War II Heroes these guys had been World War II Heroes these guys had been World War II Heroes and then were given this cushy job out and then were given this cushy job out and then were given this cushy job out at Area 51 you know and it just came at Area 51 you know and it just came at Area 51 you know and it just came with all these perks Colonel Slater told with all these perks Colonel Slater told with all these perks Colonel Slater told me this one perk I just love so much me this one perk I just love so much me this one perk I just love so much they all had a hankering for lobster one they all had a hankering for lobster one they all had a hankering for lobster one day right and here they are in the day right and here they are in the day right and here they are in the middle of the desert Nevada and they middle of the desert Nevada and they middle of the desert Nevada and they have these really fast planes you know have these really fast planes you know have these really fast planes you know and they literally called like they and they literally called like they and they literally called like they arranged they didn't take the the ox arranged they didn't take the the ox arranged they didn't take the the ox card out for that one but they they they card out for that one but they they they card out for that one but they they they would they got some lobsters from would they got some lobsters from would they got some lobsters from Massachusetts like delivered to them in Massachusetts like delivered to them in Massachusetts like delivered to them in like record time they didn't even need like record time they didn't even need like record time they didn't even need to put them on Ice you know and again to put them on Ice you know and again to put them on Ice you know and again those are the these details where you're those are the these details where you're those are the these details where you're like thank God at least for me thank God like thank God at least for me thank God like thank God at least for me thank God I got these details these guys are all I got these details these guys are all I got these details these guys are all passed now yeah so there's there's a lot passed now yeah so there's there's a lot passed now yeah so there's there's a lot of incredible technological work going of incredible technological work going of incredible technological work going on there so the legend the lore like you on there so the legend the lore like you on there so the legend the lore like you said aliens mhm were there ever aliens said aliens mhm were there ever aliens said aliens mhm were there ever aliens in Area 51 as you understand it so I've in Area 51 as you understand it so I've in Area 51 as you understand it so I've interviewed hundreds of people that interviewed hundreds of people that interviewed hundreds of people that worked there in the well not just at worked there in the well not just at worked there in the well not just at Area 51 but in all the different Area 51 but in all the different Area 51 but in all the different National Security and Military National Security and Military National Security and Military Intelligence and intelligence programs Intelligence and intelligence programs Intelligence and intelligence programs and I have I personally have no reason and I have I personally have no reason and I have I personally have no reason to believe that aliens have ever visited to believe that aliens have ever visited to believe that aliens have ever visited Earth that's just me personally visited Earth that's just me personally visited Earth that's just me personally visited Earth period I I I have no information Earth period I I I have no information Earth period I I I have no information to that that causes me to conclude to that that causes me to conclude to that that causes me to conclude that's the case now with that said many that's the case now with that said many that's the case now with that said many of the primary players in this present of the primary players in this present of the primary players in this present day you know there are aliens Among Us

day you know there are aliens Among Us day you know there are aliens Among Us narrative are in my phenomena book I narrative are in my phenomena book I narrative are in my phenomena book I continue to communicate with a lot of continue to communicate with a lot of continue to communicate with a lot of these people I'm talking about these people I'm talking about these people I'm talking about astrophysicists um who fundamentally astrophysicists um who fundamentally astrophysicists um who fundamentally believe that there are aliens Among Us believe that there are aliens Among Us believe that there are aliens Among Us right um so we beg to differ on that right um so we beg to differ on that right um so we beg to differ on that issue but for you in terms of doing issue but for you in terms of doing issue but for you in terms of doing research on uh government agencies that research on uh government agencies that research on uh government agencies that do top secret military work I mean they do top secret military work I mean they do top secret military work I mean they would would would know right so you have interviewed a lot know right so you have interviewed a lot know right so you have interviewed a lot of people that have at every layer of of people that have at every layer of of people that have at every layer of the the the onion you don't have a you don't you onion you don't have a you don't you onion you don't have a you don't you don't see evidence or um a reason to don't see evidence or um a reason to don't see evidence or um a reason to believe that there was ever aliens or believe that there was ever aliens or believe that there was ever aliens or UFOs captured from out of this world UFOs captured from out of this world UFOs captured from out of this world that is correct and and even perhaps that is correct and and even perhaps that is correct and and even perhaps more important and perhaps this colors more important and perhaps this colors more important and perhaps this colors my thinking but I am uniquely familiar my thinking but I am uniquely familiar my thinking but I am uniquely familiar with disinformation programs put forth with disinformation programs put forth with disinformation programs put forth by the CIA or the agency as it's called by the CIA or the agency as it's called by the CIA or the agency as it's called by insiders right and I've known and by insiders right and I've known and by insiders right and I've known and I've learned firsthand about these I've learned firsthand about these I've learned firsthand about these program or rather learned from firsthand program or rather learned from firsthand program or rather learned from firsthand participants in strategic deception participants in strategic deception participants in strategic deception campaigns that the CIA has engaged in campaigns that the CIA has engaged in campaigns that the CIA has engaged in beginning with Area 51 you know the idea beginning with Area 51 you know the idea beginning with Area 51 you know the idea that all these that all these that all these reports of this U2 spy plane this giant reports of this U2 spy plane this giant reports of this U2 spy plane this giant long wind long winged aircraft flying

long wind long winged aircraft flying long wind long winged aircraft flying 70,000 feet up people didn't think 70,000 feet up people didn't think 70,000 feet up people didn't think airplanes could fly that high and it's airplanes could fly that high and it's airplanes could fly that high and it's you know the sun shining off of it it you know the sun shining off of it it you know the sun shining off of it it looked like a UFO and all the reports looked like a UFO and all the reports looked like a UFO and all the reports coming in and the CIA opened up a a UFO coming in and the CIA opened up a a UFO coming in and the CIA opened up a a UFO disinformation campaign office headed by disinformation campaign office headed by disinformation campaign office headed by again guy named Toto ureno you know again guy named Toto ureno you know again guy named Toto ureno you know specifically for this reason now does specifically for this reason now does specifically for this reason now does that mean that every UFO sighting in the that mean that every UFO sighting in the that mean that every UFO sighting in the world is has been a U2 no but I come world is has been a U2 no but I come world is has been a U2 no but I come from it from that lane of thinking and from it from that lane of thinking and from it from that lane of thinking and there are so many strategic deception there are so many strategic deception there are so many strategic deception campaigns and as I look over the Decades campaigns and as I look over the Decades campaigns and as I look over the Decades of how these same UFO stor of how these same UFO stor of how these same UFO stor and again this is just my opinion based and again this is just my opinion based and again this is just my opinion based on my reporting this narrative that on my reporting this narrative that on my reporting this narrative that keeps reoccurring it seems to me like a keeps reoccurring it seems to me like a keeps reoccurring it seems to me like a very large catchall to keep the Public's very large catchall to keep the Public's very large catchall to keep the Public's attention on that not on that so so to attention on that not on that so so to attention on that not on that so so to you like sexy stories like you like sexy stories like you like sexy stories like UFOs are going to be leveraged by the UFOs are going to be leveraged by the UFOs are going to be leveraged by the CIA for strategic deception 100% I mean CIA for strategic deception 100% I mean CIA for strategic deception 100% I mean Google Paul benowitz I'm always amazed Google Paul benowitz I'm always amazed Google Paul benowitz I'm always amazed that Paul benoit's story is not more that Paul benoit's story is not more that Paul benoit's story is not more widely spoken of um and I think that's widely spoken of um and I think that's widely spoken of um and I think that's because people there's like the sort of because people there's like the sort of because people there's like the sort of ethologists or the people who are like ethologists or the people who are like ethologists or the people who are like absolutely convinced that that aliens absolutely convinced that that aliens absolutely convinced that that aliens are among us um and I use that term are among us um and I use that term are among us um and I use that term loosely but you know what I mean and loosely but you know what I mean and loosely but you know what I mean and then there's the quote unquote Skeptics then there's the quote unquote Skeptics then there's the quote unquote Skeptics and the Skeptics tend to be sort of like and the Skeptics tend to be sort of like and the Skeptics tend to be sort of like self-righteous and I would never want to

self-righteous and I would never want to self-righteous and I would never want to be self-righteous so I'm not a skeptic be self-righteous so I'm not a skeptic be self-righteous so I'm not a skeptic I'm just you know agnostic I suppose but I'm just you know agnostic I suppose but I'm just you know agnostic I suppose but Google Paul benitz and you can learn the Google Paul benitz and you can learn the Google Paul benitz and you can learn the story of that man who thought he saw a story of that man who thought he saw a story of that man who thought he saw a UFO in the 70s early 80s and the Air UFO in the 70s early 80s and the Air UFO in the 70s early 80s and the Air Force because the Air Force intelligence Force because the Air Force intelligence Force because the Air Force intelligence Community Works hand in glove with CIA a Community Works hand in glove with CIA a Community Works hand in glove with CIA a lot and some of the other intelligence lot and some of the other intelligence lot and some of the other intelligence agencies of course they're 17 not just agencies of course they're 17 not just agencies of course they're 17 not just the CIA and um they destroyed Paul the CIA and um they destroyed Paul the CIA and um they destroyed Paul benoits they sent him to a mental benoits they sent him to a mental benoits they sent him to a mental institution by pulling a massive institution by pulling a massive institution by pulling a massive strategic deception campaign against him strategic deception campaign against him strategic deception campaign against him because they didn't want him to know because they didn't want him to know because they didn't want him to know about the technology that he was seeing about the technology that he was seeing about the technology that he was seeing at Kirkland Air Force Bas so look that at Kirkland Air Force Bas so look that at Kirkland Air Force Bas so look that up and then you go oh my God and you up and then you go oh my God and you up and then you go oh my God and you know to my eye you can apply any of know to my eye you can apply any of know to my eye you can apply any of these other names substitute in Paul these other names substitute in Paul these other names substitute in Paul benoits or any of the current benoits or any of the current benoits or any of the current individuals you know who really become individuals you know who really become individuals you know who really become convinced of X Y or Z when in fact there convinced of X Y or Z when in fact there convinced of X Y or Z when in fact there is a strategic deception campaign going is a strategic deception campaign going is a strategic deception campaign going on yeah there's uh a lot of incentive on yeah there's uh a lot of incentive on yeah there's uh a lot of incentive for the CIA and other intelligence for the CIA and other intelligence for the CIA and other intelligence agencies agencies agencies to get you to look the other way on to get you to look the other way on to get you to look the other way on whatever whatever is whatever whatever is whatever whatever is happening plus from a uh enemy happening plus from a uh enemy happening plus from a uh enemy perspective Whenever two nations are at perspective Whenever two nations are at perspective Whenever two nations are at War to try to create hysteria in the War to try to create hysteria in the War to try to create hysteria in the other but then you have the Thomas other but then you have the Thomas other but then you have the Thomas theorem that becomes applicable there theorem that becomes applicable there theorem that becomes applicable there too if men Define situations as real too if men Define situations as real too if men Define situations as real they are real in their consequences

they are real in their consequences they are real in their consequences right so this idea of like UFOs and right so this idea of like UFOs and right so this idea of like UFOs and we're being lied to we're being lied to we're being lied to it becomes real to many people and then it becomes real to many people and then it becomes real to many people and then that creates a whole subset of problems that creates a whole subset of problems that creates a whole subset of problems to the point where things are spiraling to the point where things are spiraling to the point where things are spiraling out of control and there is no there is out of control and there is no there is out of control and there is no there is no Center anymore right so a lot of no Center anymore right so a lot of no Center anymore right so a lot of people that are briefed on programs people that are briefed on programs people that are briefed on programs maybe don't even aren't even aware of maybe don't even aren't even aware of maybe don't even aren't even aware of their position within a greater campaign or I'm wrong and there are campaign or I'm wrong and there are aliens Among Us aliens Among Us aliens Among Us right so you know you I appreciate you right so you know you I appreciate you right so you know you I appreciate you the possibility of uh acknowledging that the possibility of uh acknowledging that the possibility of uh acknowledging that you might be wrong uh from everything you might be wrong uh from everything you might be wrong uh from everything you know about the US government if you know about the US government if you know about the US government if there was an alien spacecraft like what there was an alien spacecraft like what there was an alien spacecraft like what do you think would happen would they be do you think would happen would they be do you think would happen would they be able to hold on to those secrets for you able to hold on to those secrets for you able to hold on to those secrets for you know know know decades uh like would they want to hold decades uh like would they want to hold decades uh like would they want to hold on to those on to those on to those Secrets like what would they do what's Secrets like what would they do what's Secrets like what would they do what's your your your sense I I can't sense I I can't sense I I can't imagine imagine imagine that kind of exciting situation not that kind of exciting situation not that kind of exciting situation not becoming public information right and becoming public information right and becoming public information right and the counter to that is this right which the counter to that is this right which the counter to that is this right which is this is a very strong argument for is this is a very strong argument for is this is a very strong argument for why this is a big strategic deception why this is a big strategic deception why this is a big strategic deception campaign right think about campaign right think about campaign right think about the defense department and the air think the defense department and the air think the defense department and the air think about how jealously they guard its

about how jealously they guard its about how jealously they guard its airspace airspace airspace right I mean you had a Chinese balloon right I mean you had a Chinese balloon right I mean you had a Chinese balloon flying over in the whole World Went flying over in the whole World Went flying over in the whole World Went Crazy right it was front page news so Crazy right it was front page news so Crazy right it was front page news so the fact that the one element or a the fact that the one element or a the fact that the one element or a couple people in the defense department couple people in the defense department couple people in the defense department have made this statement we've lost have made this statement we've lost have made this statement we've lost control of our control of our control of our airspace over this this UFO alleged UFO airspace over this this UFO alleged UFO airspace over this this UFO alleged UFO craft that they can't explain I don't craft that they can't explain I don't craft that they can't explain I don't buy that at all zero of course it's buy that at all zero of course it's buy that at all zero of course it's possible that you know it is alien possible that you know it is alien possible that you know it is alien spacecraft if it is that and they spacecraft if it is that and they spacecraft if it is that and they operate under operate under operate under a very different set of technological a very different set of technological a very different set of technological capabilities in theory in my interviews capabilities in theory in my interviews capabilities in theory in my interviews with jacqu valet who is the kind of with jacqu valet who is the kind of with jacqu valet who is the kind of Grandfather of all euphology and he's Grandfather of all euphology and he's Grandfather of all euphology and he's such an interesting person and has such such an interesting person and has such such an interesting person and has such a really unique origin story about how a really unique origin story about how a really unique origin story about how he came into all of this and he's such a he came into all of this and he's such a he came into all of this and he's such a scientist right and he is profoundly scientist right and he is profoundly scientist right and he is profoundly dedicated to this issue and stands dedicated to this issue and stands dedicated to this issue and stands completely on the opposite end of the completely on the opposite end of the completely on the opposite end of the spectrum from me and knows a lot more spectrum from me and knows a lot more spectrum from me and knows a lot more and has studied this for decades more and has studied this for decades more and has studied this for decades more but what he said to me is the most but what he said to me is the most but what he said to me is the most interesting thing which is that it's not interesting thing which is that it's not interesting thing which is that it's not a military problem it's an intelligence a military problem it's an intelligence a military problem it's an intelligence problem because jacqu believes that this problem because jacqu believes that this problem because jacqu believes that this is some kind of intelligence right which is some kind of intelligence right which is some kind of intelligence right which really the closest I can do to wrapping really the closest I can do to wrapping really the closest I can do to wrapping my head around that takes me to my head around that takes me to my head around that takes me to Consciousness right the idea of what is Consciousness right the idea of what is Consciousness right the idea of what is consciousness and I think that's where consciousness and I think that's where consciousness and I think that's where it becomes very interesting I think the it becomes very interesting I think the it becomes very interesting I think the government is hiding bodies and crafts

government is hiding bodies and crafts government is hiding bodies and crafts is is very Paul benoits read it Google is is very Paul benoits read it Google is is very Paul benoits read it Google it into it right yeah it into it right yeah it into it right yeah uh yeah I I think this kind of flying uh yeah I I think this kind of flying uh yeah I I think this kind of flying saucer thing is a is a a trivialization saucer thing is a is a a trivialization saucer thing is a is a a trivialization of what kind of if there's alien of what kind of if there's alien of what kind of if there's alien civilizations out there trivialization civilizations out there trivialization civilizations out there trivialization that's a great word trivialization that's a great word trivialization that's a great word trivialization that's I agree with you I tend to that's I agree with you I tend to that's I agree with you I tend to believe that there is like a very large believe that there is like a very large believe that there is like a very large number of alien civilizations out there number of alien civilizations out there number of alien civilizations out there and I I believe we we would have trouble and I I believe we we would have trouble and I I believe we we would have trouble comprehending what that even looks like comprehending what that even looks like comprehending what that even looks like or they to visit I I tend to believe or they to visit I I tend to believe or they to visit I I tend to believe they are already here or have visited they are already here or have visited they are already here or have visited and we're too dumb to understand what and we're too dumb to understand what and we're too dumb to understand what that even means and they certainly would that even means and they certainly would that even means and they certainly would not appear as not appear as not appear as um as uh flying objects that defy um as uh flying objects that defy um as uh flying objects that defy gravity for brief moments of time on low gravity for brief moments of time on low gravity for brief moments of time on low resolution video um I tend to have resolution video um I tend to have resolution video um I tend to have humility about all this kind of stuff humility about all this kind of stuff humility about all this kind of stuff but I think radical humility is required but I think radical humility is required but I think radical humility is required to even like open your eyes to what an to even like open your eyes to what an to even like open your eyes to what an alien intelligence would actually look alien intelligence would actually look alien intelligence would actually look like and it I to me it's beyond military like and it I to me it's beyond military like and it I to me it's beyond military lications it's like the basic human lications it's like the basic human lications it's like the basic human question of like what is even this thing question of like what is even this thing question of like what is even this thing like you mentioned Consciousness that's like you mentioned Consciousness that's like you mentioned Consciousness that's going on like where does this come from going on like where does this come from going on like where does this come from why is it so powerful is it unique in why is it so powerful is it unique in why is it so powerful is it unique in the universe I tend to believe not uh of the universe I tend to believe not uh of the universe I tend to believe not uh of course I hang out a bunch with with course I hang out a bunch with with course I hang out a bunch with with other folks like Elon who believe we are other folks like Elon who believe we are other folks like Elon who believe we are alone but I think that alone but I think that alone but I think that belief just like you belief just like you belief just like you said has power because it actually

said has power because it actually said has power because it actually manifests itself itself in uh in reality manifests itself itself in uh in reality manifests itself itself in uh in reality so if you believe that we're alone in so if you believe that we're alone in so if you believe that we're alone in this universe that's a great motivator this universe that's a great motivator this universe that's a great motivator to build rockets and become to build rockets and become to build rockets and become multiplanetary and save ourselves multiplanetary and save ourselves multiplanetary and save ourselves especially in the case of nuclear war uh especially in the case of nuclear war uh especially in the case of nuclear war uh because otherwise whatever this Special because otherwise whatever this Special because otherwise whatever this Special Sauce this this flame of Consciousness Sauce this this flame of Consciousness Sauce this this flame of Consciousness will go out if we destroy ourselves on will go out if we destroy ourselves on will go out if we destroy ourselves on this Earth and uh for people like Elon this Earth and uh for people like Elon this Earth and uh for people like Elon it's too high of a probability that we it's too high of a probability that we it's too high of a probability that we destroy ourselves on Earth not to try to destroy ourselves on Earth not to try to destroy ourselves on Earth not to try to become multiplanetary in your book on become multiplanetary in your book on become multiplanetary in your book on Area 51 you propose an explanation that Area 51 you propose an explanation that Area 51 you propose an explanation that I think some people have criticized at I think some people have criticized at I think some people have criticized at the very the very the very end uh that this might have been a end uh that this might have been a end uh that this might have been a disinformation campaign from I guess disinformation campaign from I guess disinformation campaign from I guess Stalin that the Roswell incident was a Stalin that the Roswell incident was a Stalin that the Roswell incident was a remotely piloted plane with a quote remotely piloted plane with a quote remotely piloted plane with a quote grotesque child siiz Aviator just grotesque child siiz Aviator just grotesque child siiz Aviator just looking back at all that now years later looking back at all that now years later looking back at all that now years later um what's the probability that it's true um what's the probability that it's true um what's the probability that it's true what's the probability it's what's the probability it's what's the probability it's not so you know I've never I've never not so you know I've never I've never not so you know I've never I've never revealed who that source is yes did you revealed who that source is yes did you revealed who that source is yes did you know that want me to tell you with the know that want me to tell you with the know that want me to tell you with the source yeah okay who's the source yeah okay who's the source yeah okay who's the source so before I say anything on that source so before I say anything on that source so before I say anything on that let me let me let me speak to the the let me let me let me speak to the the let me let me let me speak to the the question that you asked right question that you asked right question that you asked right so you asked me what's the probability so you asked me what's the probability so you asked me what's the probability that that is still standing as an that that is still standing as an that that is still standing as an idea 14 12 13 14 years later right so I

idea 14 12 13 14 years later right so I idea 14 12 13 14 years later right so I continued to work with that source for continued to work with that source for continued to work with that source for years afterwards we talked about this years afterwards we talked about this years afterwards we talked about this look I mean his whole look I mean his whole look I mean his whole family knew it was him and I knew his family knew it was him and I knew his family knew it was him and I knew his family because I was an integral part of family because I was an integral part of family because I was an integral part of you know I was at his house met all his you know I was at his house met all his you know I was at his house met all his kids kids kids grandkids and and we should say the grandkids and and we should say the grandkids and and we should say the source is the main expert advisor behind source is the main expert advisor behind source is the main expert advisor behind the story that it was maybe you can the story that it was maybe you can the story that it was maybe you can explain what the story is that you're explain what the story is that you're explain what the story is that you're report in the book that it was uh report in the book that it was uh report in the book that it was uh disinformation okay campaign created by disinformation okay campaign created by disinformation okay campaign created by Stalin to cause Mass hysteria in the Stalin to cause Mass hysteria in the Stalin to cause Mass hysteria in the United States the very kind that we've United States the very kind that we've United States the very kind that we've been speaking about with the CIA and so been speaking about with the CIA and so been speaking about with the CIA and so on yes predicated on the on The on yes predicated on the on The on yes predicated on the on The Narrative of the War of the Worlds right Narrative of the War of the Worlds right Narrative of the War of the Worlds right and the War of the Worlds when it was a and the War of the Worlds when it was a and the War of the Worlds when it was a radio program in the United States made radio program in the United States made radio program in the United States made people go crazy oh my God we're being people go crazy oh my God we're being people go crazy oh my God we're being invaded by aliens well the government invaded by aliens well the government invaded by aliens well the government was always interested in this story and was always interested in this story and was always interested in this story and Joseph Stalin was too we know that from Joseph Stalin was too we know that from Joseph Stalin was too we know that from Declassified documents right and so the Declassified documents right and so the Declassified documents right and so the source told me that the the the reason source told me that the the the reason source told me that the the the reason for this program and that the real for this program and that the real for this program and that the real Roswell crash remains where in fact it Roswell crash remains where in fact it Roswell crash remains where in fact it was a a black propaganda hoax was a a black propaganda hoax was a a black propaganda hoax infiltrated you know or rather infiltrated you know or rather infiltrated you know or rather predicated at this idea that you were predicated at this idea that you were predicated at this idea that you were going to overwhelm America's early going to overwhelm America's early going to overwhelm America's early warning air defense system caus Mayhem warning air defense system caus Mayhem warning air defense system caus Mayhem and maybe be able to attack the United and maybe be able to attack the United and maybe be able to attack the United States that was the plan and Stalin was States that was the plan and Stalin was States that was the plan and Stalin was also messing with the United States also messing with the United States also messing with the United States messing with Truman who sort of you know messing with Truman who sort of you know messing with Truman who sort of you know turned his back on him right at Potsdam turned his back on him right at Potsdam turned his back on him right at Potsdam and so um this idea idea was and the

and so um this idea idea was and the and so um this idea idea was and the reason that the source was important and reason that the source was important and reason that the source was important and unlike you know a lot of people I saw I unlike you know a lot of people I saw I unlike you know a lot of people I saw I I saw this I saw that I learned that was I saw this I saw that I learned that was I saw this I saw that I learned that was according to the according to the according to the source once it was once it was source once it was once it was source once it was once it was determined that this was a hoax and that determined that this was a hoax and that determined that this was a hoax and that Stalin was able to get a craft over the Stalin was able to get a craft over the Stalin was able to get a craft over the United States and it crashed and it had United States and it crashed and it had United States and it crashed and it had you know people inside of it they were you know people inside of it they were you know people inside of it they were people that people that people that were sort of deformed and meant were sort of deformed and meant were sort of deformed and meant surgically altered to look like surgically altered to look like surgically altered to look like aliens the United States government aliens the United States government aliens the United States government decided that it needed to know what on decided that it needed to know what on decided that it needed to know what on Earth that was all about and if it was Earth that was all about and if it was Earth that was all about and if it was possible for us to have the same program possible for us to have the same program possible for us to have the same program this according to the source right and this according to the source right and this according to the source right and so it sounds Preposterous and if it was so it sounds Preposterous and if it was so it sounds Preposterous and if it was just someone saying I you might say well just someone saying I you might say well just someone saying I you might say well it's ridiculous tell me and get them it's ridiculous tell me and get them it's ridiculous tell me and get them onto another subject but the difference onto another subject but the difference onto another subject but the difference was is this Source who is very was is this Source who is very was is this Source who is very well-placed and friends with all of the well-placed and friends with all of the well-placed and friends with all of the other 75 other 75 other 75 people you know told me this as a people you know told me this as a people you know told me this as a confession right a real tearful confession right a real tearful confession right a real tearful confession because what he said is he confession because what he said is he confession because what he said is he was involved in the American program to was involved in the American program to was involved in the American program to do the same thing and people died do the same thing and people died do the same thing and people died because there were human experiments because there were human experiments because there were human experiments that went on and I I write about this in that went on and I I write about this in that went on and I I write about this in the last 12 pages of Area 51 it was the last 12 pages of Area 51 it was the last 12 pages of Area 51 it was explosive you know Revelation and I felt explosive you know Revelation and I felt explosive you know Revelation and I felt very confident in writing this because very confident in writing this because very confident in writing this because the source wanted it written why because the source wanted it written why because the source wanted it written why because he said I'm dedicated to my country I he said I'm dedicated to my country I he said I'm dedicated to my country I know about being committed to National know about being committed to National know about being committed to National Security and this kind of thing must

Security and this kind of thing must Security and this kind of thing must never happen and if you give people too never happen and if you give people too never happen and if you give people too much power they will take advantage of much power they will take advantage of much power they will take advantage of it and he wanted it on the record and it and he wanted it on the record and it and he wanted it on the record and his wife of 60 years did not know until his wife of 60 years did not know until his wife of 60 years did not know until after the book published nor did his after the book published nor did his after the book published nor did his children okay so after the book children okay so after the book children okay so after the book published I was called to his house and published I was called to his house and published I was called to his house and sat there with his family and they said sat there with his family and they said sat there with his family and they said tell us this isn't true and he said it tell us this isn't true and he said it tell us this isn't true and he said it is true is true is true right now that source is Al odonnell who right now that source is Al odonnell who right now that source is Al odonnell who is the nuclear weapons engineer who is the nuclear weapons engineer who is the nuclear weapons engineer who armed wired and fired armed wired and fired armed wired and fired 186 nuclear 186 nuclear 186 nuclear weapons okay so if you want to talk weapons okay so if you want to talk weapons okay so if you want to talk about someone you're the first person about someone you're the first person about someone you're the first person I've told that on on the record but it's I've told that on on the record but it's I've told that on on the record but it's kind of about kind of about kind of about time time time wow well I uh you received a lot of wow well I uh you received a lot of wow well I uh you received a lot of criticism over this story and it criticism over this story and it criticism over this story and it confused me why because confused me why because confused me why because it's give in the context of everything it's give in the context of everything it's give in the context of everything you've described with the CIA and other you've described with the CIA and other you've described with the CIA and other intelligence intelligence intelligence agencies it is reasonable that such a agencies it is reasonable that such a agencies it is reasonable that such a action would be taken and the source is extraordinarily taken and the source is extraordinarily credible right if you all if you wanted credible right if you all if you wanted credible right if you all if you wanted to take the position well that person to take the position well that person to take the position well that person isn't very reliable then you have to ask isn't very reliable then you have to ask isn't very reliable then you have to ask yourself why did they have top secret yourself why did they have top secret yourself why did they have top secret clearances that are higher than any in clearances that are higher than any in clearances that are higher than any in the the United States whatsoever because the the United States whatsoever because the the United States whatsoever because he was responsible for arming nuclear he was responsible for arming nuclear he was responsible for arming nuclear bombs he was called the trigger man and

bombs he was called the trigger man and bombs he was called the trigger man and by the way he told me that I could tell by the way he told me that I could tell by the way he told me that I could tell the world who he was there's a lot of the world who he was there's a lot of the world who he was there's a lot of details that are really dark uh details that are really dark uh details that are really dark uh involving that program and when is it involving that program and when is it involving that program and when is it appropriate right well it feels appropriate right well it feels appropriate right well it feels appropriate now first of all because you appropriate now first of all because you appropriate now first of all because you and I have been talking for several and I have been talking for several and I have been talking for several hours so this is what is a truly a long hours so this is what is a truly a long hours so this is what is a truly a long form conversation and it's the outcome form conversation and it's the outcome form conversation and it's the outcome of you know a very long time of my of you know a very long time of my of you know a very long time of my reporting and also being judicious reporting and also being judicious reporting and also being judicious about what you know closing the loop on about what you know closing the loop on about what you know closing the loop on that right because I do think it's that right because I do think it's that right because I do think it's important for people to know that important for people to know that important for people to know that sources sources sources um have um have um have Revelations and like you said the Revelations and like you said the Revelations and like you said the programs both on the Soviet side and the programs both on the Soviet side and the programs both on the Soviet side and the American side uh conflicting I think is American side uh conflicting I think is American side uh conflicting I think is the the term we used the the term we used the the term we used previously U ethically morally previously U ethically morally previously U ethically morally on all fronts on all fronts on all fronts uh um people have done some horrible uh um people have done some horrible uh um people have done some horrible things in the name of security in your book surprise kill security in your book surprise kill vanish you write about the vanish you write about the vanish you write about the CIA and the uh so-called president's CIA and the uh so-called president's CIA and the uh so-called president's third third third option it turns out so first of all option it turns out so first of all option it turns out so first of all First Option being First Option being First Option being diplomacy and uh second option being War diplomacy and uh second option being War diplomacy and uh second option being War so when diplomacy is inadequate and war so when diplomacy is inadequate and war so when diplomacy is inadequate and war is a terrible idea would go to the third is a terrible idea would go to the third is a terrible idea would go to the third option and uh this third option is about

option and uh this third option is about option and uh this third option is about covert action and and it's about covert action and and it's about covert action and and it's about assassination so how much of that does assassination so how much of that does assassination so how much of that does the CIA the CIA the CIA do that is open to debate we know from do that is open to debate we know from do that is open to debate we know from the historical record that the CIA was the historical record that the CIA was the historical record that the CIA was heavily involved in assassination during heavily involved in assassination during heavily involved in assassination during the Cold War that's non-negotiable you the Cold War that's non-negotiable you the Cold War that's non-negotiable you know even the names of the programs that know even the names of the programs that know even the names of the programs that were assigned to perform assassinations were assigned to perform assassinations were assigned to perform assassinations are fascinating and now Declassified are fascinating and now Declassified are fascinating and now Declassified like Eisenhower's for example was the like Eisenhower's for example was the like Eisenhower's for example was the health alteration health alteration health alteration committee well at least they have a committee well at least they have a committee well at least they have a sense of humor to this dark topic you sense of humor to this dark topic you sense of humor to this dark topic you know then the more modern names are know then the more modern names are know then the more modern names are targeted killing right executive action targeted killing right executive action targeted killing right executive action targeted killing right I mean drone targeted killing right I mean drone targeted killing right I mean drone striking is essentially striking is essentially striking is essentially assassination and you know people jump assassination and you know people jump assassination and you know people jump up and down and say that's not true well up and down and say that's not true well up and down and say that's not true well spent quite a long time interviewing the spent quite a long time interviewing the spent quite a long time interviewing the cia's lead Council John Rizzo he died cia's lead Council John Rizzo he died cia's lead Council John Rizzo he died recently but Rizzo was very forthcoming recently but Rizzo was very forthcoming recently but Rizzo was very forthcoming with me of course never sharing with me of course never sharing with me of course never sharing classified information but going up to classified information but going up to classified information but going up to the edge of what can legally be known the edge of what can legally be known the edge of what can legally be known Rizzo was thrown under the bus by sort Rizzo was thrown under the bus by sort Rizzo was thrown under the bus by sort of the general public for he was the of the general public for he was the of the general public for he was the Fall Guy for the torture campaign the Fall Guy for the torture campaign the Fall Guy for the torture campaign the CIA calls it enhanced CIA calls it enhanced CIA calls it enhanced interrogation and so Rizzo had this long interrogation and so Rizzo had this long interrogation and so Rizzo had this long career you know he began working under career you know he began working under career you know he began working under the Carter Administration right and was

the Carter Administration right and was the Carter Administration right and was responsible for the torture memos was responsible for the torture memos was responsible for the torture memos was responsible for legally making sure the responsible for legally making sure the responsible for legally making sure the president's ass was covered um and then president's ass was covered um and then president's ass was covered um and then got thrown under the bus and so he was got thrown under the bus and so he was got thrown under the bus and so he was very forthcoming not in a bitter way but very forthcoming not in a bitter way but very forthcoming not in a bitter way but in a very Earnest way about a lot of how in a very Earnest way about a lot of how in a very Earnest way about a lot of how these programs are made to be legal these programs are made to be legal these programs are made to be legal because if the president of the United because if the president of the United because if the president of the United States says they're legal they're legal States says they're legal they're legal States says they're legal they're legal executive order 1233 3 you know it says executive order 1233 3 you know it says executive order 1233 3 you know it says we don't assassinate but it can be we don't assassinate but it can be we don't assassinate but it can be overwritten by another order that's overwritten by another order that's overwritten by another order that's straight out of Rizzo's mouth right um straight out of Rizzo's mouth right um straight out of Rizzo's mouth right um also really important to keep in mind is also really important to keep in mind is also really important to keep in mind is that the military operates under what's that the military operates under what's that the military operates under what's called title 50 it's part of the called title 50 it's part of the called title 50 it's part of the national security code that gives like national security code that gives like national security code that gives like sort of you know rules and Etc how you sort of you know rules and Etc how you sort of you know rules and Etc how you must behave in a war theater well the must behave in a war theater well the must behave in a war theater well the CIA is under no such rules it operates CIA is under no such rules it operates CIA is under no such rules it operates under what's called title 50 and you under what's called title 50 and you under what's called title 50 and you know it's interesting to me as a know it's interesting to me as a know it's interesting to me as a reporter cuz before I wrote the book and reporter cuz before I wrote the book and reporter cuz before I wrote the book and reported openly about title 50 it was reported openly about title 50 it was reported openly about title 50 it was not really discussed and now you even not really discussed and now you even not really discussed and now you even see operators themselves on podcast see operators themselves on podcast see operators themselves on podcast talking about title 50 which is kind of talking about title 50 which is kind of talking about title 50 which is kind of great because it's like the cat's out of great because it's like the cat's out of great because it's like the cat's out of the bag guys that's what it's called and the bag guys that's what it's called and the bag guys that's what it's called and that's how it works it means what we say that's how it works it means what we say that's how it works it means what we say goes can you elaborate on what title 50 goes can you elaborate on what title 50 goes can you elaborate on what title 50 so it basically says assassination is so it basically says assassination is so it basically says assassination is allowed it says what the president wants allowed it says what the president wants allowed it says what the president wants the president gets right and so I mean the president gets right and so I mean the president gets right and so I mean the best example ex Le is the killing of the best example ex Le is the killing of the best example ex Le is the killing of Bin Laden right we were not at war with Bin Laden right we were not at war with Bin Laden right we were not at war with Pakistan so title 50 doesn't apply you Pakistan so title 50 doesn't apply you Pakistan so title 50 doesn't apply you can't have a military operation in a

can't have a military operation in a can't have a military operation in a country you're not at war with I mean country you're not at war with I mean country you're not at war with I mean the lines my God now they've really the lines my God now they've really the lines my God now they've really blurred but even then they were a little blurred but even then they were a little blurred but even then they were a little more honored right and so what do you do more honored right and so what do you do more honored right and so what do you do well Leon Panetta was the CIA director well Leon Panetta was the CIA director well Leon Panetta was the CIA director um and you work out a scenario whereby um and you work out a scenario whereby um and you work out a scenario whereby the seals and by the way it wasn't the the seals and by the way it wasn't the the seals and by the way it wasn't the seal it was there was rotational on that seal it was there was rotational on that seal it was there was rotational on that um killer capture Mission which was um killer capture Mission which was um killer capture Mission which was really just a kill Mission seals were really just a kill Mission seals were really just a kill Mission seals were practicing Delta was practicing and practicing Delta was practicing and practicing Delta was practicing and special activities division was special activities division was special activities division was practicing they were all practicing at a practicing they were all practicing at a practicing they were all practicing at a secret facility in North Carolina right secret facility in North Carolina right secret facility in North Carolina right and it was just like you know they're and it was just like you know they're and it was just like you know they're ready to till they get the go order and ready to till they get the go order and ready to till they get the go order and it just happened to be the seals okay so it just happened to be the seals okay so it just happened to be the seals okay so the seals operate under title 10 so they the seals operate under title 10 so they the seals operate under title 10 so they had to get what I call sheep dip because had to get what I call sheep dip because had to get what I call sheep dip because that's what the Insiders call it right that's what the Insiders call it right that's what the Insiders call it right and that is a term that comes from and that is a term that comes from and that is a term that comes from interestingly Area 51 the U2 Pilots were interestingly Area 51 the U2 Pilots were interestingly Area 51 the U2 Pilots were Air Force pilots they needed to be sheep Air Force pilots they needed to be sheep Air Force pilots they needed to be sheep dipped over to the CIA so they could do dipped over to the CIA so they could do dipped over to the CIA so they could do things that defied the law okay so you things that defied the law okay so you things that defied the law okay so you can see how these all entwine and you can see how these all entwine and you can see how these all entwine and you become more and more informed and you go become more and more informed and you go become more and more informed and you go aha right so that's how title 50 worked aha right so that's how title 50 worked aha right so that's how title 50 worked so the night of that mission it was a so the night of that mission it was a so the night of that mission it was a CIA Mission because the CIA is allowed CIA Mission because the CIA is allowed CIA Mission because the CIA is allowed to go into Pakistan and kill someone and to go into Pakistan and kill someone and to go into Pakistan and kill someone and the military can't that's fascinating so the military can't that's fascinating so the military can't that's fascinating so people talk about the Navy Seals doing people talk about the Navy Seals doing people talk about the Navy Seals doing it but it's really legally speaking to it but it's really legally speaking to it but it's really legally speaking to get the permission to do it within the get the permission to do it within the get the permission to do it within the whole legal framework of the United whole legal framework of the United whole legal framework of the United States it was the CIA and if you look at States it was the CIA and if you look at States it was the CIA and if you look at their uniforms that they were wearing

their uniforms that they were wearing their uniforms that they were wearing and now that you know this you'll see and now that you know this you'll see and now that you know this you'll see there's no nomenclature on them there's there's no nomenclature on them there's there's no nomenclature on them there's no right so those are they're just meant no right so those are they're just meant no right so those are they're just meant to be completely untraceable were that to be completely untraceable were that to be completely untraceable were that were they to be shot down and captured were they to be shot down and captured were they to be shot down and captured it's like wait who are these guys oh a it's like wait who are these guys oh a it's like wait who are these guys oh a bunch of Rogue guys okay and this goes bunch of Rogue guys okay and this goes bunch of Rogue guys okay and this goes back the origin story of all that is in back the origin story of all that is in back the origin story of all that is in Vietnam with Mac V so and these Vietnam with Mac V so and these Vietnam with Mac V so and these crossborder operations that I Chronicle crossborder operations that I Chronicle crossborder operations that I Chronicle in Surprise kill vanish which still in Surprise kill vanish which still in Surprise kill vanish which still amaze me to this day right I mean SOG amaze me to this day right I mean SOG amaze me to this day right I mean SOG missions they called it suicide on the missions they called it suicide on the missions they called it suicide on the ground because that's what it was and ground because that's what it was and ground because that's what it was and these guys had no these guys had no these guys had no identifiable nothing I mean they they identifiable nothing I mean they they identifiable nothing I mean they they were essentially in pajamas right even were essentially in pajamas right even were essentially in pajamas right even their weapons were specially designed by their weapons were specially designed by their weapons were specially designed by the CIA to have no serial numbers no the CIA to have no serial numbers no the CIA to have no serial numbers no nothing so if they were captured and nothing so if they were captured and nothing so if they were captured and they became p ps I don't know who these they became p ps I don't know who these they became p ps I don't know who these guys guys guys are what do you think and how much do are what do you think and how much do are what do you think and how much do they think uh at the highest levels of they think uh at the highest levels of they think uh at the highest levels of power about the ethics of power about the ethics of power about the ethics of assassination and and about assassination and and about assassination and and about the role of that in geopolitics and the role of that in geopolitics and the role of that in geopolitics and military operations military operations military operations like to you maybe also does like to you maybe also does like to you maybe also does assassination makes sense as a as a good assassination makes sense as a as a good assassination makes sense as a as a good as a good methodology of War I mean as a good methodology of War I mean as a good methodology of War I mean again I try to remain agnostic on the again I try to remain agnostic on the again I try to remain agnostic on the policy part of it and just report the policy part of it and just report the policy part of it and just report the operators's perspective right because operators's perspective right because operators's perspective right because this is what people do and this is what this is what people do and this is what this is what people do and this is what people are asked to do um and it and it

people are asked to do um and it and it people are asked to do um and it and it it depends on the individual I mean it depends on the individual I mean it depends on the individual I mean Billy W went on a lot of those missions Billy W went on a lot of those missions Billy W went on a lot of those missions I mean the the saying is like Oh Billy W I mean the the saying is like Oh Billy W I mean the the saying is like Oh Billy W he killed more people than cancer right he killed more people than cancer right he killed more people than cancer right uh did Billy W ever tell me about direct uh did Billy W ever tell me about direct uh did Billy W ever tell me about direct assassinations no because they're all assassinations no because they're all assassinations no because they're all classified right did he tell me about classified right did he tell me about classified right did he tell me about some failed ones yes I'll give you an some failed ones yes I'll give you an some failed ones yes I'll give you an example was really interesting um he example was really interesting um he example was really interesting um he would he would show me these power would he would show me these power would he would show me these power points that were just fantastic you know points that were just fantastic you know points that were just fantastic you know late in his life he was constantly being late in his life he was constantly being late in his life he was constantly being asked to go up to Fort Bragg and lecture asked to go up to Fort Bragg and lecture asked to go up to Fort Bragg and lecture to the young soldiers and everybody to the young soldiers and everybody to the young soldiers and everybody loved him you know and he would um he loved him you know and he would um he loved him you know and he would um he would drive all night to get there and would drive all night to get there and would drive all night to get there and he would create these Powerpoints and he would create these Powerpoints and he would create these Powerpoints and then he would show me the Powerpoints then he would show me the Powerpoints then he would show me the Powerpoints and he would um all unclassified but at and he would um all unclassified but at and he would um all unclassified but at one point when Hugo Chavez was in power one point when Hugo Chavez was in power one point when Hugo Chavez was in power Billy W was kind of asked that's how it Billy W was kind of asked that's how it Billy W was kind of asked that's how it works of like if you had to think about works of like if you had to think about works of like if you had to think about doing something what would it look like doing something what would it look like doing something what would it look like let's just say hypothetically so he took let's just say hypothetically so he took let's just say hypothetically so he took me through this PowerPoint that never me through this PowerPoint that never me through this PowerPoint that never happened whereby he and a group of happened whereby he and a group of happened whereby he and a group of operators agency operators were going to operators agency operators were going to operators agency operators were going to Halo jump in to the palace and grab Halo jump in to the palace and grab Halo jump in to the palace and grab Chavez and probably kill him because he Chavez and probably kill him because he Chavez and probably kill him because he wouldn't allow himself to be captured wouldn't allow himself to be captured wouldn't allow himself to be captured and uh you know what Billy and by the and uh you know what Billy and by the and uh you know what Billy and by the way Halo jumping for those of listeners way Halo jumping for those of listeners way Halo jumping for those of listeners who don't know high altitude low opening who don't know high altitude low opening who don't know high altitude low opening right so you jump out of an aircraft and right so you jump out of an aircraft and right so you jump out of an aircraft and you go down like a pencil until you're you go down like a pencil until you're you go down like a pencil until you're really low to the deck like 1,000 fet really low to the deck like 1,000 fet really low to the deck like 1,000 fet you pull your parachute cord and that you pull your parachute cord and that you pull your parachute cord and that way you're not picked up on radar and way you're not picked up on radar and way you're not picked up on radar and you're also not traceable when you get

you're also not traceable when you get you're also not traceable when you get to the ground because it's so fast Billy to the ground because it's so fast Billy to the ground because it's so fast Billy W took the second HALO jump in history W took the second HALO jump in history W took the second HALO jump in history into a war theater in La during the into a war theater in La during the into a war theater in La during the Vietnam war right so he's like this Vietnam war right so he's like this Vietnam war right so he's like this famous Halo jumper right so he he and famous Halo jumper right so he he and famous Halo jumper right so he he and the team were going to go in grab shavez the team were going to go in grab shavez the team were going to go in grab shavez and and he said to me a very interesting and and he said to me a very interesting and and he said to me a very interesting thing that was kind of a one moment in thing that was kind of a one moment in thing that was kind of a one moment in time where I saw a different side of time where I saw a different side of time where I saw a different side of Billy W where he Billy W where he Billy W where he said I'm so glad we didn't do that even said I'm so glad we didn't do that even said I'm so glad we didn't do that even though I really wanted to at the time though I really wanted to at the time though I really wanted to at the time because can you know can you imagine because can you know can you imagine because can you know can you imagine that country's problems where it is now that country's problems where it is now that country's problems where it is now can you imagine how we would have been can you imagine how we would have been can you imagine how we would have been blamed and it was like an interesting blamed and it was like an interesting blamed and it was like an interesting rare moment for Billy W to comment on rare moment for Billy W to comment on rare moment for Billy W to comment on the bigger picture that you're asking me the bigger picture that you're asking me the bigger picture that you're asking me about right yeah I think pretty much The about right yeah I think pretty much The about right yeah I think pretty much The Operators I know they just stick to the Operators I know they just stick to the Operators I know they just stick to the mission so on the technical difficulty mission so on the technical difficulty mission so on the technical difficulty of those missions just your big sense of those missions just your big sense of those missions just your big sense how hard is it to do to how hard is it to do to how hard is it to do to assassinate uh to assassinate a Target assassinate uh to assassinate a Target assassinate uh to assassinate a Target on the soil of that on the soil of that on the soil of that Nation I suppose that just depends right Nation I suppose that just depends right Nation I suppose that just depends right I here's another insightful Bill thing I here's another insightful Bill thing I here's another insightful Bill thing Billy wall said to me and I'm answering Billy wall said to me and I'm answering Billy wall said to me and I'm answering the question around because I don't know the question around because I don't know the question around because I don't know because again you know I never had because again you know I never had because again you know I never had anyone say to me here's how it went down anyone say to me here's how it went down anyone say to me here's how it went down right because you can't that would be right because you can't that would be right because you can't that would be first of all those are classified so I'm first of all those are classified so I'm first of all those are classified so I'm never going to receive classified never going to receive classified never going to receive classified information I did hear a lot about information I did hear a lot about information I did hear a lot about reconnaissance missions when people reconnaissance missions when people reconnaissance missions when people would be in charge of you have to be

would be in charge of you have to be would be in charge of you have to be able to what's called make book on the able to what's called make book on the able to what's called make book on the target before right and making book on target before right and making book on target before right and making book on the target means um photographing them the target means um photographing them the target means um photographing them to really then that gets run up the to really then that gets run up the to really then that gets run up the chain of command to make sure this is chain of command to make sure this is chain of command to make sure this is really EOD mugia we're about to kill really EOD mugia we're about to kill really EOD mugia we're about to kill right um but I once asked Billy when I right um but I once asked Billy when I right um but I once asked Billy when I was trying to get the question you know was trying to get the question you know was trying to get the question you know and he wouldn't answer it and I said so and he wouldn't answer it and I said so and he wouldn't answer it and I said so there's another person in my book named there's another person in my book named there's another person in my book named Rick pra who's also like a legendary Rick pra who's also like a legendary Rick pra who's also like a legendary agency Guy and um and so you know he's agency Guy and um and so you know he's agency Guy and um and so you know he's like 20 years younger than Billy and I like 20 years younger than Billy and I like 20 years younger than Billy and I said um Billy if you and Rick had to said um Billy if you and Rick had to said um Billy if you and Rick had to kill each other like who would win right kill each other like who would win right kill each other like who would win right I was trying to imagine this like I was trying to imagine this like I was trying to imagine this like hypothetical like how would that work hypothetical like how would that work hypothetical like how would that work who would win right and I I posed the who would win right and I I posed the who would win right and I I posed the question to each of them yeah right and question to each of them yeah right and question to each of them yeah right and and of course and of course and of course each of them said me right but Billy each of them said me right but Billy each of them said me right but Billy then I went back to them and they and I then I went back to them and they and I then I went back to them and they and I Billy said let me tell you how I would Billy said let me tell you how I would Billy said let me tell you how I would win okay right and he said I'd cheat mhm win okay right and he said I'd cheat mhm win okay right and he said I'd cheat mhm I'd show up before the duel and I'd kill I'd show up before the duel and I'd kill I'd show up before the duel and I'd kill him yeah there such such a uh like uh him yeah there such such a uh like uh him yeah there such such a uh like uh you know I have a lot of friends who in you know I have a lot of friends who in you know I have a lot of friends who in Navy Seals it's such a guy conversation Navy Seals it's such a guy conversation Navy Seals it's such a guy conversation uh well you would be amazed at what the uh well you would be amazed at what the uh well you would be amazed at what the women do let me just tell you that women women do let me just tell you that women women do let me just tell you that women are part of the special activities are part of the special activities are part of the special activities division division division Vision a big part of it can you comment Vision a big part of it can you comment Vision a big part of it can you comment on that I can women can get a hell of a on that I can women can get a hell of a on that I can women can get a hell of a lot closer to a lot closer to a lot closer to a Target and I mean that literally the

Target and I mean that literally the Target and I mean that literally the Special Operations do you mean is this Special Operations do you mean is this Special Operations do you mean is this part of the CIA the special activities part of the CIA the special activities part of the CIA the special activities division now it's called the special division now it's called the special division now it's called the special Activity Center um but originally that's Activity Center um but originally that's Activity Center um but originally that's the that's the umbrella agency that has the that's the umbrella agency that has the that's the umbrella agency that has the different paramilitary organizations the different paramilitary organizations the different paramilitary organizations under it right so the most lethal one is under it right so the most lethal one is under it right so the most lethal one is Brown Branch um and that's what I Brown Branch um and that's what I Brown Branch um and that's what I reported on in Surprise kill vanish and reported on in Surprise kill vanish and reported on in Surprise kill vanish and its Origins go way back to the Guerilla its Origins go way back to the Guerilla its Origins go way back to the Guerilla Warfare core that was started uh in 1947 Warfare core that was started uh in 1947 Warfare core that was started uh in 1947 for the president so women are for the president so women are for the president so women are also uh a part of the alleged also uh a part of the alleged also uh a part of the alleged assassination assassination assassination absolutely and you're saying they can at absolutely and you're saying they can at absolutely and you're saying they can at times be more effective let me just going to leave effective let me just going to leave that pause there the reason I ask of how that pause there the reason I ask of how that pause there the reason I ask of how difficult the assassinations are you difficult the assassinations are you difficult the assassinations are you know with Bin Laden it took a long time know with Bin Laden it took a long time know with Bin Laden it took a long time so I guess the so I guess the so I guess the reconnaissance the intelligence for reconnaissance the intelligence for reconnaissance the intelligence for finding the finding the finding the target I imagine with mad maybe this C target I imagine with mad maybe this C target I imagine with mad maybe this C now the leadership of Hamas the military now the leadership of Hamas the military now the leadership of Hamas the military branch of branch of branch of Hamas is much wanted from an Hamas is much wanted from an Hamas is much wanted from an assassination perspective so to me as an assassination perspective so to me as an assassination perspective so to me as an outside Observer it's seems like it's outside Observer it's seems like it's outside Observer it's seems like it's more difficult than you would imagine more difficult than you would imagine more difficult than you would imagine mhm mhm but perhaps that's the mhm mhm but perhaps that's the mhm mhm but perhaps that's the intelligence aspect of it not the actual intelligence aspect of it not the actual intelligence aspect of it not the actual assassination of locating the person assassination of locating the person assassination of locating the person well I think most it's because mostly

well I think most it's because mostly well I think most it's because mostly from what I understand it's a really from what I understand it's a really from what I understand it's a really it's a really dirty game and people are it's a really dirty game and people are it's a really dirty game and people are covering for people right and I'll give covering for people right and I'll give covering for people right and I'll give I'll give you the example of Billy wall I'll give you the example of Billy wall I'll give you the example of Billy wall and imod mugia if I may right so imod and imod mugia if I may right so imod and imod mugia if I may right so imod mugia was the most Wanted terrorist in mugia was the most Wanted terrorist in mugia was the most Wanted terrorist in the world before Bin Laden you know the world before Bin Laden you know the world before Bin Laden you know hezbollah's chief of hezbollah's chief of hezbollah's chief of operations and he was wanted by every operations and he was wanted by every operations and he was wanted by every and you know mad John down but no one and you know mad John down but no one and you know mad John down but no one could find him he was missing for 20 could find him he was missing for 20 could find him he was missing for 20 years there wasn't even a photograph of years there wasn't even a photograph of years there wasn't even a photograph of him and then he resurfaced and of all him and then he resurfaced and of all him and then he resurfaced and of all places he resurfaced in Saudi Arabia places he resurfaced in Saudi Arabia places he resurfaced in Saudi Arabia okay so what that's when I say it's a okay so what that's when I say it's a okay so what that's when I say it's a dirty game right Hezbollah Iran dirty game right Hezbollah Iran dirty game right Hezbollah Iran Hezbollah Iran enemies with Saudi Hezbollah Iran enemies with Saudi Hezbollah Iran enemies with Saudi Arabia why on Earth was mod mugia in Arabia why on Earth was mod mugia in Arabia why on Earth was mod mugia in Saudi Arabia well that's where he was Saudi Arabia well that's where he was Saudi Arabia well that's where he was there was a Navy SEAL who was doing there was a Navy SEAL who was doing there was a Navy SEAL who was doing reconnaissance on him this is according reconnaissance on him this is according reconnaissance on him this is according to Billy W and this is around 2005 so to Billy W and this is around 2005 so to Billy W and this is around 2005 so Billy's in his 80s at this point right Billy's in his 80s at this point right Billy's in his 80s at this point right late 70s 80s late 70s 80s late 70s 80s and he gets word that the seal who's and he gets word that the seal who's and he gets word that the seal who's been tracking mugia to get photographs been tracking mugia to get photographs been tracking mugia to get photographs of him to give the photographs to mad of him to give the photographs to mad of him to give the photographs to mad and CIA so they can do a joint operation and CIA so they can do a joint operation and CIA so they can do a joint operation to kill him which they did with a car to kill him which they did with a car to kill him which they did with a car bomb in Damascus that's the the end of bomb in Damascus that's the the end of bomb in Damascus that's the the end of the story right but how we got there was the story right but how we got there was the story right but how we got there was we needed you know the CIA needed we needed you know the CIA needed we needed you know the CIA needed confirmation you can't kill the wrong confirmation you can't kill the wrong confirmation you can't kill the wrong person so the seal panicked according to person so the seal panicked according to person so the seal panicked according to Billy W and was just like I'm out of Billy W and was just like I'm out of Billy W and was just like I'm out of here this is too dangerous and I do not here this is too dangerous and I do not here this is too dangerous and I do not want to wind up in a Saudi prison so who

want to wind up in a Saudi prison so who want to wind up in a Saudi prison so who do you send in Billy wall right he shows do you send in Billy wall right he shows do you send in Billy wall right he shows up he's there for 24 hours he finds he up he's there for 24 hours he finds he up he's there for 24 hours he finds he knows where mugia lives from the seal he knows where mugia lives from the seal he knows where mugia lives from the seal he positions himself in a cafe across the positions himself in a cafe across the positions himself in a cafe across the street which is run by sudin men and of street which is run by sudin men and of street which is run by sudin men and of course W speaks some sudin because he course W speaks some sudin because he course W speaks some sudin because he operated in Sudan right and he's operated in Sudan right and he's operated in Sudan right and he's shooting the with him by his own shooting the with him by his own shooting the with him by his own words he had the most foul mouth it was words he had the most foul mouth it was words he had the most foul mouth it was just absolutely delightful to listen to just absolutely delightful to listen to just absolutely delightful to listen to and then in between him and Mia's house and then in between him and Mia's house and then in between him and Mia's house is a dumpster and Billy W being Billy W is a dumpster and Billy W being Billy W is a dumpster and Billy W being Billy W who will go to any length to do the job who will go to any length to do the job who will go to any length to do the job decides to conduct reconnaissance from decides to conduct reconnaissance from decides to conduct reconnaissance from inside the dumpster M and that is where inside the dumpster M and that is where inside the dumpster M and that is where he is when he takes the picture he is when he takes the picture he is when he takes the picture of EOD mugia living so comfortably in of EOD mugia living so comfortably in of EOD mugia living so comfortably in Saudi that mugia according to Billy came Saudi that mugia according to Billy came Saudi that mugia according to Billy came out of his apartment building with dry out of his apartment building with dry out of his apartment building with dry cleaner plastic bag hangers over his cleaner plastic bag hangers over his cleaner plastic bag hangers over his shoulder that's how comfortable he lived shoulder that's how comfortable he lived shoulder that's how comfortable he lived there it was his there it was his there it was his neighborhood click click click Billy W neighborhood click click click Billy W neighborhood click click click Billy W takes the photographs runs them to the takes the photographs runs them to the takes the photographs runs them to the CIA headquarters in Saudi at the embassy CIA headquarters in Saudi at the embassy CIA headquarters in Saudi at the embassy oh my God it's mugia get get the hell oh my God it's mugia get get the hell oh my God it's mugia get get the hell out of here he gets to the airport he out of here he gets to the airport he out of here he gets to the airport he leaves those photographs get sent to the leaves those photographs get sent to the leaves those photographs get sent to the agency and then they do the operation agency and then they do the operation agency and then they do the operation with mad and M is dead now that the with mad and M is dead now that the with mad and M is dead now that the truth about that being a co- CIA mission truth about that being a co- CIA mission truth about that being a co- CIA mission was not reported for many years after

was not reported for many years after was not reported for many years after the fact it was originally mad took the fact it was originally mad took the fact it was originally mad took credit as the CIA often likes to just credit as the CIA often likes to just credit as the CIA often likes to just give other people credit they just want give other people credit they just want give other people credit they just want the job the job the job done well speaking of mad what in your done well speaking of mad what in your done well speaking of mad what in your understanding of all the intelligence understanding of all the intelligence understanding of all the intelligence agencies what are the strengths and agencies what are the strengths and agencies what are the strengths and weaknesses of of the different weaknesses of of the different weaknesses of of the different intelligence agencies out there CIA intelligence agencies out there CIA intelligence agencies out there CIA mad mad mad MI6 um svr and FSB and the Chinese MI6 um svr and FSB and the Chinese MI6 um svr and FSB and the Chinese intelligence all this kind of stuff is intelligence all this kind of stuff is intelligence all this kind of stuff is there some interesting differences there some interesting differences there some interesting differences insights that you have from all your insights that you have from all your insights that you have from all your studying of CIA that's a really studying of CIA that's a really studying of CIA that's a really interesting question interesting question interesting question I I don't know and here's why is because I I don't know and here's why is because I I don't know and here's why is because I've never interviewed any intelligence I've never interviewed any intelligence I've never interviewed any intelligence off officer with those other agencies off officer with those other agencies off officer with those other agencies right I've interviewed a couple people right I've interviewed a couple people right I've interviewed a couple people with Shin bat in in Israel but um until with Shin bat in in Israel but um until with Shin bat in in Israel but um until you until I speak to an actual Source you until I speak to an actual Source you until I speak to an actual Source whose job it was I don't know and so the whose job it was I don't know and so the whose job it was I don't know and so the information that I'm getting is based on information that I'm getting is based on information that I'm getting is based on perception of others which one would perception of others which one would perception of others which one would think would be deeply clouded by the think would be deeply clouded by the think would be deeply clouded by the idea that America's the greatest right idea that America's the greatest right idea that America's the greatest right right right right right right we're better than them you right right we're better than them you right right we're better than them you know yes uh well actually the know yes uh well actually the know yes uh well actually the fascinating thing is because you've fascinating thing is because you've fascinating thing is because you've spoken to a lot of people about they say spoken to a lot of people about they say spoken to a lot of people about they say how do you know they're telling the how do you know they're telling the how do you know they're telling the truth like how do you and this actually truth like how do you and this actually truth like how do you and this actually probably applies generally to your uh

probably applies generally to your uh probably applies generally to your uh interviews with very secretive people interviews with very secretive people interviews with very secretive people how do you get past the like how do you get past the like how do you get past the like well that's just like multiple sourcing well that's just like multiple sourcing well that's just like multiple sourcing right so so you find the story out and right so so you find the story out and right so so you find the story out and then you have to you go to the National then you have to you go to the National then you have to you go to the National Archives and you find the operation and Archives and you find the operation and Archives and you find the operation and then you learn all about this and then then you learn all about this and then then you learn all about this and then you interview other people who were you interview other people who were you interview other people who were there and you put the story together to there and you put the story together to there and you put the story together to the best of your ability and you make the best of your ability and you make the best of your ability and you make very specific choices with you know very specific choices with you know very specific choices with you know quote so and so said end quote said so quote so and so said end quote said so quote so and so said end quote said so and so right and all very rarely do I and so right and all very rarely do I and so right and all very rarely do I report on a single source as I did in report on a single source as I did in report on a single source as I did in the end of Area 51 and then it says the end of Area 51 and then it says the end of Area 51 and then it says essentially look th look dear reader essentially look th look dear reader essentially look th look dear reader this is what the source told me I have this is what the source told me I have this is what the source told me I have no way of corroborating it this is legit no way of corroborating it this is legit no way of corroborating it this is legit and here it is so that's a an area to and here it is so that's a an area to and here it is so that's a an area to make your reader comfortable with the make your reader comfortable with the make your reader comfortable with the information that they're being given and information that they're being given and information that they're being given and then in all of my books whether there then in all of my books whether there then in all of my books whether there are three or 400 Pages there's always a are three or 400 Pages there's always a are three or 400 Pages there's always a 100 pages of notes at the end so you can 100 pages of notes at the end so you can 100 pages of notes at the end so you can see all the sourcing and you can begin see all the sourcing and you can begin see all the sourcing and you can begin to get an understanding of how to get an understanding of how to get an understanding of how journalism in the National Security journalism in the National Security journalism in the National Security World works works and also great World works works and also great World works works and also great opportunity for me to say I'm often opportunity for me to say I'm often opportunity for me to say I'm often standing on the shoulders of journalists standing on the shoulders of journalists standing on the shoulders of journalists before me who did an incredible job before me who did an incredible job before me who did an incredible job digging into something and being able to digging into something and being able to digging into something and being able to report what they knew often the books report what they knew often the books report what they knew often the books are 10 20 30 years old and so much more are 10 20 30 years old and so much more are 10 20 30 years old and so much more has come to light since and I also would

has come to light since and I also would has come to light since and I also would just like to say that I I appreciate just like to say that I I appreciate just like to say that I I appreciate that you said great question I don't that you said great question I don't that you said great question I don't know uh not enough people say I don't know uh not enough people say I don't know uh not enough people say I don't know and that's a sign of a great know and that's a sign of a great know and that's a sign of a great journalist uh but speaking about things journalist uh but speaking about things journalist uh but speaking about things you might not know you might not know you might not know about uh let me ask you about something about uh let me ask you about something about uh let me ask you about something going going going on on on currently uh so recently Alexi naly uh currently uh so recently Alexi naly uh currently uh so recently Alexi naly uh died in prison perhaps was killed in died in prison perhaps was killed in died in prison perhaps was killed in prison uh what's your sense from looking prison uh what's your sense from looking prison uh what's your sense from looking at it do you think he died of natural at it do you think he died of natural at it do you think he died of natural causes in prison uh do you think it's causes in prison uh do you think it's causes in prison uh do you think it's possible he was possible he was possible he was assassinated uh Russia assassinated uh Russia assassinated uh Russia Ukraine mad Ukraine mad Ukraine mad CIA um Whoever has interest in this CIA um Whoever has interest in this CIA um Whoever has interest in this particular warh for that I look directly particular warh for that I look directly particular warh for that I look directly to the historical record right having to the historical record right having to the historical record right having written about Russian assassination written about Russian assassination written about Russian assassination campaigns and programs since the campaigns and programs since the campaigns and programs since the earliest days of the Cold War right and earliest days of the Cold War right and earliest days of the Cold War right and Russia has a long history of Russia has a long history of Russia has a long history of assassinating murdering assassinating murdering assassinating murdering dissidents and in Surprise Kil vanish I dissidents and in Surprise Kil vanish I dissidents and in Surprise Kil vanish I tell the story of an actual KGB assassin tell the story of an actual KGB assassin tell the story of an actual KGB assassin named kov who knocked on the named kov who knocked on the named kov who knocked on the door of his of the man he was assigned door of his of the man he was assigned door of his of the man he was assigned to kill and and by the way this all to kill and and by the way this all to kill and and by the way this all comes from a book that kov wrote later comes from a book that kov wrote later comes from a book that kov wrote later right because he defected to the United

right because he defected to the United right because he defected to the United States he knocks on the door and the guy States he knocks on the door and the guy States he knocks on the door and the guy answers the door and instead of killing answers the door and instead of killing answers the door and instead of killing him he has like this moment of conscious him he has like this moment of conscious him he has like this moment of conscious of Crisis or crisis of conscience and of Crisis or crisis of conscience and of Crisis or crisis of conscience and says like I can't kill you even though says like I can't kill you even though says like I can't kill you even though that's what I'm supposed to do and then that's what I'm supposed to do and then that's what I'm supposed to do and then sits down with the guy and together sits down with the guy and together sits down with the guy and together decides okay we're going to defect you decides okay we're going to defect you decides okay we're going to defect you know we're going to we're going to let know we're going to we're going to let know we're going to we're going to let the Western intelligence agencies know the Western intelligence agencies know the Western intelligence agencies know what we're doing here and the CIA got what we're doing here and the CIA got what we're doing here and the CIA got involved but Russian Assassins were able involved but Russian Assassins were able involved but Russian Assassins were able to poison kov with ponum um what happens to poison kov with ponum um what happens to poison kov with ponum um what happens to him is insane and it's a miracle he to him is insane and it's a miracle he to him is insane and it's a miracle he didn't die but he doesn't and then he didn't die but he doesn't and then he didn't die but he doesn't and then he defects to the west and he writes these defects to the west and he writes these defects to the west and he writes these books and he tells lots of incredible books and he tells lots of incredible books and he tells lots of incredible secrets about the Russian assassination secrets about the Russian assassination secrets about the Russian assassination programs and their poison labs and programs and their poison labs and programs and their poison labs and they're really really really interesting they're really really really interesting they're really really really interesting and so to answer that question I mean to and so to answer that question I mean to and so to answer that question I mean to my eye of course I don't know but it my eye of course I don't know but it my eye of course I don't know but it certainly looks like Russia is acting in certainly looks like Russia is acting in certainly looks like Russia is acting in the same vein that it has always acted the same vein that it has always acted the same vein that it has always acted taking care of dissidents that go taking care of dissidents that go taking care of dissidents that go against Mother Russia so in the in the against Mother Russia so in the in the against Mother Russia so in the in the style of KGB assassinations assassinations uh is there something you can comment uh is there something you can comment uh is there something you can comment on about the ways that KGB operates on about the ways that KGB operates on about the ways that KGB operates versus the CIA when we look at the versus the CIA when we look at the versus the CIA when we look at the history of the two organizations the history of the two organizations the history of the two organizations the cold cold cold war after World War II and leading up to war after World War II and leading up to war after World War II and leading up to today m i mean my feeling on that is today m i mean my feeling on that is today m i mean my feeling on that is always

always always that there's a thread that there's a thread that there's a thread somewhere in every in in Declassified somewhere in every in in Declassified somewhere in every in in Declassified documentation about these programs of documentation about these programs of documentation about these programs of America working to maintain a working to maintain a semblance of democratic ideals however semblance of democratic ideals however semblance of democratic ideals however surprising that may be right in other surprising that may be right in other surprising that may be right in other words always trying words always trying words always trying to I don't want to say fight fair to I don't want to say fight fair to I don't want to say fight fair because you know killing people isn't because you know killing people isn't because you know killing people isn't fair but um versus a certain fair but um versus a certain fair but um versus a certain ruthlessness a real ruthlessness a real ruthlessness a real Sinister totalitarian type ruthlessness Sinister totalitarian type ruthlessness Sinister totalitarian type ruthlessness certainly from Soviet certainly from Soviet certainly from Soviet Russia I'm far less familiar with Russia I'm far less familiar with Russia I'm far less familiar with modern-day Russian assassination modern-day Russian assassination modern-day Russian assassination activities although we certainly know on activities although we certainly know on activities although we certainly know on the record you know that they exist some the record you know that they exist some the record you know that they exist some people have done great reporting on that people have done great reporting on that people have done great reporting on that um but there seems to be a kind um but there seems to be a kind um but there seems to be a kind of almost a sadism about the Russian of almost a sadism about the Russian of almost a sadism about the Russian program prams that I personally have not program prams that I personally have not program prams that I personally have not seen in the American programs what about seen in the American programs what about seen in the American programs what about on the surveillance side it seems like on the surveillance side it seems like on the surveillance side it seems like America is pretty good at surveill Mass America is pretty good at surveill Mass America is pretty good at surveill Mass surveillance or at least has been surveillance or at least has been surveillance or at least has been revealed through NSA and all this kind revealed through NSA and all this kind revealed through NSA and all this kind of uh reporting and leaks and of uh reporting and leaks and of uh reporting and leaks and whistleblowers um can you comment to the

whistleblowers um can you comment to the whistleblowers um can you comment to the degree to how much surveillance is done degree to how much surveillance is done degree to how much surveillance is done by the US government internally and by the US government internally and by the US government internally and externally externally externally if you'd ask me five years ago I would if you'd ask me five years ago I would if you'd ask me five years ago I would had a very different answer right had a very different answer right had a very different answer right because all right first of all you can't because all right first of all you can't because all right first of all you can't they're looking for a needle in the hay they're looking for a needle in the hay they're looking for a needle in the hay stack they're looking for the bin Laden stack they're looking for the bin Laden stack they're looking for the bin Laden and they can't find the needle in the and they can't find the needle in the and they can't find the needle in the hay stack but they continue to create hay stack but they continue to create hay stack but they continue to create the hay stack and and Survey the hay the hay stack and and Survey the hay the hay stack and and Survey the hay stack so right okay so but the real stack so right okay so but the real stack so right okay so but the real problem what has happened and I write problem what has happened and I write problem what has happened and I write about this in my book first platoon about this in my book first platoon about this in my book first platoon which is about a group of young soldiers which is about a group of young soldiers which is about a group of young soldiers who goes to Afghanistan and unwittingly who goes to Afghanistan and unwittingly who goes to Afghanistan and unwittingly becomes part of the defense becomes part of the defense becomes part of the defense Department's biome efforts to capture Department's biome efforts to capture Department's biome efforts to capture Biometrics on 85% of the population of Biometrics on 85% of the population of Biometrics on 85% of the population of Afghanistan okay which by the way China Afghanistan okay which by the way China Afghanistan okay which by the way China then emulated in their own biometric then emulated in their own biometric then emulated in their own biometric surveillance program right and I think surveillance program right and I think surveillance program right and I think this is a a terrible idea but what is this is a a terrible idea but what is this is a a terrible idea but what is happened these biometric systems that happened these biometric systems that happened these biometric systems that have been created and Biometrics are of have been created and Biometrics are of have been created and Biometrics are of course fingerprints course fingerprints course fingerprints facial images DNA and Iris scans that facial images DNA and Iris scans that facial images DNA and Iris scans that allow you to tag TR track and locate allow you to tag TR track and locate allow you to tag TR track and locate people okay and what has happened in the people okay and what has happened in the people okay and what has happened in the 5 years since this question was first 5 years since this question was first 5 years since this question was first you know on everybody's Minds about NSA you know on everybody's Minds about NSA you know on everybody's Minds about NSA surveillance is that the civilian sector surveillance is that the civilian sector surveillance is that the civilian sector companies have essentially done all the companies have essentially done all the companies have essentially done all the defense Department's biometric defense Department's biometric defense Department's biometric surveillance job for them by all of us surveillance job for them by all of us surveillance job for them by all of us sharing our facially recognizable images

sharing our facially recognizable images sharing our facially recognizable images on Instagram and Facebook and everywhere on Instagram and Facebook and everywhere on Instagram and Facebook and everywhere else X um by sharing information by else X um by sharing information by else X um by sharing information by writing up narratives about ourselves um writing up narratives about ourselves um writing up narratives about ourselves um this information has become part of the this information has become part of the this information has become part of the database five years ago when I was database five years ago when I was database five years ago when I was reporting first platoon I was reporting first platoon I was reporting first platoon I was interviewing the police chief of El interviewing the police chief of El interviewing the police chief of El Segundo which is kind of like on the Segundo which is kind of like on the Segundo which is kind of like on the outskirts of La it's right near the outskirts of La it's right near the outskirts of La it's right near the airport and why it's important is airport and why it's important is airport and why it's important is because it's like defense contractor because it's like defense contractor because it's like defense contractor Haven okay so they have like you know Haven okay so they have like you know Haven okay so they have like you know massive surveillance and chief whan when massive surveillance and chief whan when massive surveillance and chief whan when I posed this question to him he said to I posed this question to him he said to I posed this question to him he said to me Annie let me show you something and me Annie let me show you something and me Annie let me show you something and he had Clearwater AI the the rec the he had Clearwater AI the the rec the he had Clearwater AI the the rec the recognition software on his phone and recognition software on his phone and recognition software on his phone and this was still when it was like quasi this was still when it was like quasi this was still when it was like quasi not supposed to have to have that for not supposed to have to have that for not supposed to have to have that for law enforcement and he said I want you law enforcement and he said I want you law enforcement and he said I want you to go down the block and I want you to to go down the block and I want you to to go down the block and I want you to just turn the corner and come back just turn the corner and come back just turn the corner and come back toward me right which I did and he just toward me right which I did and he just toward me right which I did and he just didn't even hold up his phone he just didn't even hold up his phone he just didn't even hold up his phone he just kind of his looked like his hand was and kind of his looked like his hand was and kind of his looked like his hand was and his phone was on me and he went back his phone was on me and he went back his phone was on me and he went back down it was like tiniest movement mhm down it was like tiniest movement mhm down it was like tiniest movement mhm and when I came back to him he went like and when I came back to him he went like and when I came back to him he went like this and he showed me there I was this and he showed me there I was this and he showed me there I was everything about me everything about me everything about me everything about me everything about me everything about me facts and figures and all images and he facts and figures and all images and he facts and figures and all images and he knew who I was before I even got to knew who I was before I even got to knew who I was before I even got to him so is that a good thing or a bad him so is that a good thing or a bad him so is that a good thing or a bad thing I mean we could have another thing I mean we could have another thing I mean we could have another three-hour conversation about that alone three-hour conversation about that alone three-hour conversation about that alone so you're saying more and more you don't so you're saying more and more you don't so you're saying more and more you don't need an

need an need an Ansa where we're giving over the data Ansa where we're giving over the data Ansa where we're giving over the data ourselves yeah ourselves yeah ourselves yeah uh publicly or semi- publicly yeah uh publicly or semi- publicly yeah uh publicly or semi- publicly yeah during the war on terror people were during the war on terror people were during the war on terror people were just like insense to learn that there is just like insense to learn that there is just like insense to learn that there is a drone that's flying at something like a drone that's flying at something like a drone that's flying at something like 20,000 ft it's called Argus is right and 20,000 ft it's called Argus is right and 20,000 ft it's called Argus is right and it could it can it could it can it could it can capture the it's not a license plate capture the it's not a license plate capture the it's not a license plate it's like it can basically capture like it's like it can basically capture like it's like it can basically capture like what's written on a golf ball from what's written on a golf ball from what's written on a golf ball from 177,000 Ft 20,000 ft up okay and people 177,000 Ft 20,000 ft up okay and people 177,000 Ft 20,000 ft up okay and people went crazy over this went crazy over this went crazy over this like oh my God it's big brother well like oh my God it's big brother well like oh my God it's big brother well one of the lead Engineers on that Pat one of the lead Engineers on that Pat one of the lead Engineers on that Pat bilin is someone I talk to regularly bilin is someone I talk to regularly bilin is someone I talk to regularly because we talk about surveillance a lot because we talk about surveillance a lot because we talk about surveillance a lot because he thinks about it a lot because because he thinks about it a lot because because he thinks about it a lot because he has kids now and he is has given so he has kids now and he is has given so he has kids now and he is has given so much thoughtful you know really thinks much thoughtful you know really thinks much thoughtful you know really thinks about this issue because he believes about this issue because he believes about this issue because he believes just like you stated that what we are just like you stated that what we are just like you stated that what we are turning over about ourselves actually turning over about ourselves actually turning over about ourselves actually exceeds anything that Argus is could do exceeds anything that Argus is could do exceeds anything that Argus is could do from above because we're doing it from above because we're doing it from above because we're doing it willfully and so what it's doing is it's willfully and so what it's doing is it's willfully and so what it's doing is it's creating an ability for if someone wants creating an ability for if someone wants creating an ability for if someone wants to know about you if someone let's say to know about you if someone let's say to know about you if someone let's say in government wants to know about Lex in government wants to know about Lex in government wants to know about Lex Reedman they can find out everything Reedman they can find out everything Reedman they can find out everything about you and then that gets used for about you and then that gets used for about you and then that gets used for tagging tagging tagging tracking and ultimately you know in the tracking and ultimately you know in the tracking and ultimately you know in the in the war theater it was called Fine in the war theater it was called Fine in the war theater it was called Fine fix finish what do you think the Finish fix finish what do you think the Finish fix finish what do you think the Finish is in that is in that is in that statement it's not pleasant it's called statement it's not pleasant it's called statement it's not pleasant it's called a drone strike yeah find find them with a drone strike yeah find find them with a drone strike yeah find find them with the biometric fix him meaning fix his

the biometric fix him meaning fix his the biometric fix him meaning fix his position we know he's moving in a car position we know he's moving in a car position we know he's moving in a car that's him that's him finish him call it that's him that's him finish him call it that's him that's him finish him call it in drone strike boom if we could uh in drone strike boom if we could uh in drone strike boom if we could uh return to nuclear return to nuclear return to nuclear war you've briefly mentioned that a lot war you've briefly mentioned that a lot war you've briefly mentioned that a lot of things go back to the third of things go back to the third of things go back to the third Rank and Rank and Rank and Hitler if we go back to World War II we Hitler if we go back to World War II we Hitler if we go back to World War II we look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki the look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki the look at Hiroshima and Nagasaki the dropping of the two dropping of the two dropping of the two bombs I would love to get your opinion bombs I would love to get your opinion bombs I would love to get your opinion on whether we should or should have done on whether we should or should have done on whether we should or should have done that and also to get your opinion on that and also to get your opinion on that and also to get your opinion on what would have happened if Hitler and what would have happened if Hitler and what would have happened if Hitler and Germany built the bomb first do you Germany built the bomb first do you Germany built the bomb first do you think it was possible he could have think it was possible he could have think it was possible he could have built the bomb built the bomb built the bomb first in my first in my first in my researching Third Reich weapons for researching Third Reich weapons for researching Third Reich weapons for Operation Paperclip because of course we Operation Paperclip because of course we Operation Paperclip because of course we got a lot of those scientists after is got a lot of those scientists after is got a lot of those scientists after is another great book in a terrifyingly another great book in a terrifyingly another great book in a terrifyingly complicated operation yes uh um when you complicated operation yes uh um when you complicated operation yes uh um when you know at what point do the ends justify know at what point do the ends justify know at what point do the ends justify the means right um but in looking at the means right um but in looking at the means right um but in looking at those programs and we acquired Hitler's those programs and we acquired Hitler's those programs and we acquired Hitler's favorite weapons designers um and I'm favorite weapons designers um and I'm favorite weapons designers um and I'm talking about weapons of mass talking about weapons of mass talking about weapons of mass destruction like chemical weapons and destruction like chemical weapons and destruction like chemical weapons and biological weapons but of course America biological weapons but of course America biological weapons but of course America was ahead in the nuclear program and an was ahead in the nuclear program and an was ahead in the nuclear program and an interesting detail reading Albert interesting detail reading Albert interesting detail reading Albert Spear's Memoirs was um spear referring

Spear's Memoirs was um spear referring Spear's Memoirs was um spear referring to a conversation he had with Hitler to a conversation he had with Hitler to a conversation he had with Hitler where Hitler said said no I don't want where Hitler said said no I don't want where Hitler said said no I don't want to do that that's Jewish to do that that's Jewish to do that that's Jewish science and so because of Hitler's own science and so because of Hitler's own science and so because of Hitler's own racial ethnic pre prejudices they didn't racial ethnic pre prejudices they didn't racial ethnic pre prejudices they didn't develop the bomb right as far as should develop the bomb right as far as should develop the bomb right as far as should we have dropped the bombs on we have dropped the bombs on we have dropped the bombs on Hiroshima you know I've interviewed all Hiroshima you know I've interviewed all Hiroshima you know I've interviewed all kinds of people with different opinions kinds of people with different opinions kinds of people with different opinions most of them that it ended the war um most of them that it ended the war um most of them that it ended the war um the best interview and most meaningful the best interview and most meaningful the best interview and most meaningful perhaps that I ever did was with Alo perhaps that I ever did was with Alo perhaps that I ever did was with Alo Donnell who was a participant in the Donnell who was a participant in the Donnell who was a participant in the Battle of okanawa which was like this Battle of okanawa which was like this Battle of okanawa which was like this insane just to read stories about insane just to read stories about insane just to read stories about okanawa it makes your hair stand on end okanawa it makes your hair stand on end okanawa it makes your hair stand on end and odonnell like so many others was and odonnell like so many others was and odonnell like so many others was slated slated slated to invade Mainland to invade Mainland to invade Mainland Japan to his almost certain death right Japan to his almost certain death right Japan to his almost certain death right so somebody like that it makes sense so somebody like that it makes sense so somebody like that it makes sense right from the get-go why he would be right from the get-go why he would be right from the get-go why he would be pro- nuclear weapons it saved his own pro- nuclear weapons it saved his own pro- nuclear weapons it saved his own personal life and it saved everyone that personal life and it saved everyone that personal life and it saved everyone that he knew that he was fighting with and it he knew that he was fighting with and it he knew that he was fighting with and it ended the war do you think it sent a ended the war do you think it sent a ended the war do you think it sent a signal like without that we wouldn't signal like without that we wouldn't signal like without that we wouldn't have known perhaps about the power of have known perhaps about the power of have known perhaps about the power of the weapons the weapons the weapons so in the long Arc of that history 70 so in the long Arc of that history 70 so in the long Arc of that history 70 years years years plus it it is it is the reason why plus it it is it is the reason why plus it it is it is the reason why deterrence has worked so far

deterrence has worked so far deterrence has worked so far yes that's an interesting thought my yes that's an interesting thought my yes that's an interesting thought my thought goes to this idea that like of thought goes to this idea that like of thought goes to this idea that like of more right that everybody always wants more right that everybody always wants more right that everybody always wants more it's a very dangerous it's like more it's a very dangerous it's like more it's a very dangerous it's like more power literally not just figure more power literally not just figure more power literally not just figure more power right and what what is more more power right and what what is more more power right and what what is more confounding to me confounding to me confounding to me beyond the fact that we dropped to beyond the fact that we dropped to beyond the fact that we dropped to atomic bombs on Hiroshima Nagasaki and atomic bombs on Hiroshima Nagasaki and atomic bombs on Hiroshima Nagasaki and the war ended is that this decision was the war ended is that this decision was the war ended is that this decision was then made to develop the thermonuclear then made to develop the thermonuclear then made to develop the thermonuclear bomb a force that is such it's the bomb a force that is such it's the bomb a force that is such it's the degree of magnitude of that power is degree of magnitude of that power is degree of magnitude of that power is mindboggling I mean even projects within mindboggling I mean even projects within mindboggling I mean even projects within the Manhattan Project defined the Manhattan Project defined the Manhattan Project defined thermonuclear weapon the thermonuclear thermonuclear weapon the thermonuclear thermonuclear weapon the thermonuclear weapon as the evil thing like it was weapon as the evil thing like it was weapon as the evil thing like it was evil it's a it's a weapon of genocide evil it's a it's a weapon of genocide evil it's a it's a weapon of genocide Atomic weapons d destroy cities um cities um thermonuclear weapons destroy thermonuclear weapons destroy thermonuclear weapons destroy civilizations you open the book with a civilizations you open the book with a civilizations you open the book with a Churchill quote the story of the human Churchill quote the story of the human Churchill quote the story of the human race is war except for brief and race is war except for brief and race is war except for brief and precarious interludes there has never precarious interludes there has never precarious interludes there has never been peace in the world and before been peace in the world and before been peace in the world and before history began murderous Strife was history began murderous Strife was history began murderous Strife was Universal and Universal and Universal and unending do you think there will always

unending do you think there will always unending do you think there will always be be be War do you think that there's some deep War do you think that there's some deep War do you think that there's some deep human way in which we're tending to this human way in which we're tending to this human way in which we're tending to this kind of global war kind of global war kind of global war eternally well the optimistic answer of eternally well the optimistic answer of eternally well the optimistic answer of that would be that we could evolve that would be that we could evolve that would be that we could evolve beyond that right because certainly if beyond that right because certainly if beyond that right because certainly if we look at our and we look at our and we look at our and ancestors um they had not developed ancestors um they had not developed ancestors um they had not developed their their their Consciousness as Consciousness as Consciousness as far as we have to be able to build the far as we have to be able to build the far as we have to be able to build the tools that we have and so the hopeful tools that we have and so the hopeful tools that we have and so the hopeful answer is we will evolve Beyond this answer is we will evolve Beyond this answer is we will evolve Beyond this kind of Brute Force kill the other guy kind of Brute Force kill the other guy kind of Brute Force kill the other guy attitude certainly you know these are attitude certainly you know these are attitude certainly you know these are questions that will become more obvious questions that will become more obvious questions that will become more obvious over time I just want to play my little over time I just want to play my little over time I just want to play my little part in this world that I live in as the part in this world that I live in as the part in this world that I live in as the Storyteller who brings information to Storyteller who brings information to Storyteller who brings information to people so that they people so that they people so that they can have these kind of can have these kind of can have these kind of questions with themselves with their questions with themselves with their questions with themselves with their friends with their families and I think friends with their families and I think friends with their families and I think in asking that very question you're what in asking that very question you're what in asking that very question you're what you're really saying is why don't you're really saying is why don't you're really saying is why don't we evolve Beyond War fighting it is very possible and you fighting it is very possible and you your book is such a stark and Powerful

your book is such a stark and Powerful your book is such a stark and Powerful reminder that human civilization as we reminder that human civilization as we reminder that human civilization as we know it ends in this know it ends in this know it ends in this Century it's a Century it's a Century it's a um it's a good motivator to get our together but aren't you really saying together but aren't you really saying human civilization could end not it human civilization could end not it human civilization could end not it ends could end could ends could end could ends could end could end but the power of our weapons is end but the power of our weapons is end but the power of our weapons is growing growing growing rapidly so as they say it's time to come rapidly so as they say it's time to come rapidly so as they say it's time to come back from the brink right and it's time back from the brink right and it's time back from the brink right and it's time to have that discussion while we're to have that discussion while we're to have that discussion while we're still talking and uh you know there's still talking and uh you know there's still talking and uh you know there's another complexity sneaking up into the another complexity sneaking up into the another complexity sneaking up into the picture in the form of artificial picture in the form of artificial picture in the form of artificial intelligence and in the in cyber War but intelligence and in the in cyber War but intelligence and in the in cyber War but also in Hot War the use of autonomous also in Hot War the use of autonomous also in Hot War the use of autonomous weapons all of it starts becoming super weapons all of it starts becoming super weapons all of it starts becoming super complicated complicated complicated as we delegate some of these uh as we delegate some of these uh as we delegate some of these uh decisions about war including nuclear decisions about war including nuclear decisions about war including nuclear war to more and more autonomy and war to more and more autonomy and war to more and more autonomy and artificial intelligence systems it's artificial intelligence systems it's artificial intelligence systems it's going to be a very interesting Century going to be a very interesting Century going to be a very interesting Century do you just to zoom out a little bit do you just to zoom out a little bit do you just to zoom out a little bit hope that we become a multiplanetary hope that we become a multiplanetary hope that we become a multiplanetary species I'm all for species I'm all for species I'm all for adventure uh and I too while am for adventure uh and I too while am for adventure uh and I too while am for adventure I'm all for adventure I'm all for adventure I'm all for backups in all forms so I I hope that backups in all forms so I I hope that backups in all forms so I I hope that humans start a civilization on Mars and

humans start a civilization on Mars and humans start a civilization on Mars and Beyond out in space and if you zoom out Beyond out in space and if you zoom out Beyond out in space and if you zoom out on across all of it what gives you on across all of it what gives you on across all of it what gives you hope about human civilization about this hope about human civilization about this hope about human civilization about this whole thing we have going on here I mean whole thing we have going on here I mean whole thing we have going on here I mean I am a fundamentally optimistic person I I am a fundamentally optimistic person I I am a fundamentally optimistic person I must have come out of the shoot that way must have come out of the shoot that way must have come out of the shoot that way because I just am right even though I because I just am right even though I because I just am right even though I write about really Grim things I I get write about really Grim things I I get write about really Grim things I I get inspired by them because I do always inspired by them because I do always inspired by them because I do always believe in evolution right I also have believe in evolution right I also have believe in evolution right I also have like the greatest family ever two kids like the greatest family ever two kids like the greatest family ever two kids Jet and Finley shout out to them they're Jet and Finley shout out to them they're Jet and Finley shout out to them they're Lex Freedman fans you know um and uh and Lex Freedman fans you know um and uh and Lex Freedman fans you know um and uh and my husband and you know so what inspires my husband and you know so what inspires my husband and you know so what inspires me is like this idea of Legacy I think me is like this idea of Legacy I think me is like this idea of Legacy I think that you always want to have your eye on that you always want to have your eye on that you always want to have your eye on being a good example to the best that being a good example to the best that being a good example to the best that you can and so and passing on what you you can and so and passing on what you you can and so and passing on what you know and believing kind of in the Next know and believing kind of in the Next know and believing kind of in the Next Generation and again again that's a Generation and again again that's a Generation and again again that's a sentiment echoed by all these cold sentiment echoed by all these cold sentiment echoed by all these cold Warriors I've been talking to because Warriors I've been talking to because Warriors I've been talking to because they also share that um that idea that they also share that um that idea that they also share that um that idea that wow look at what we have done as a wow look at what we have done as a wow look at what we have done as a civilization and look where we're going civilization and look where we're going civilization and look where we're going whether it's interplanet exoplanetary whether it's interplanet exoplanetary whether it's interplanet exoplanetary travel or travel or travel or AI um it's just that the the human AI um it's just that the the human AI um it's just that the the human factor of like the desire to fight the factor of like the desire to fight the factor of like the desire to fight the desire to have desire to have desire to have conflict needs to be Recon figured conflict needs to be Recon figured conflict needs to be Recon figured because with all these new technologies because with all these new technologies because with all these new technologies that we have the Peril is growing at an

that we have the Peril is growing at an that we have the Peril is growing at an accelerating Pace perhaps faster than accelerating Pace perhaps faster than accelerating Pace perhaps faster than the average human can keep up with well the average human can keep up with well the average human can keep up with well Annie thank you for being a wonderful Annie thank you for being a wonderful Annie thank you for being a wonderful example of a great journalist a great example of a great journalist a great example of a great journalist a great writer a great human being and I'm a big writer a great human being and I'm a big writer a great human being and I'm a big fan of yours it's a huge honor to meet fan of yours it's a huge honor to meet fan of yours it's a huge honor to meet you to talk with you today so thank you you to talk with you today so thank you you to talk with you today so thank you so much for talking today thank you for so much for talking today thank you for so much for talking today thank you for having me thank you for listening to having me thank you for listening to having me thank you for listening to this conversation with Annie Jacobson to this conversation with Annie Jacobson to this conversation with Annie Jacobson to support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you some words from John F let me leave you some words from John F let me leave you some words from John F Kennedy the very word secrecy is Kennedy the very word secrecy is Kennedy the very word secrecy is repugnant in a free and open society and repugnant in a free and open society and repugnant in a free and open society and we are as a people inherently and we are as a people inherently and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies historically opposed to secret societies historically opposed to secret societies the secret Oaths and to secret the secret Oaths and to secret the secret Oaths and to secret proceedings thank you for listening and proceedings thank you for listening and proceedings thank you for listening and hope to see you next next