Gregory Aldrete: The Roman Empire - Rise and Fall of Ancient Rome | Lex Fridman Podcast #443

so Rome always wins because even if they so Rome always wins because even if they lose battles they go to the Italian lose battles they go to the Italian lose battles they go to the Italian allies and half citizens and raise new allies and half citizens and raise new allies and half citizens and raise new armies so how do you beat them he can armies so how do you beat them he can armies so how do you beat them he can never raise that many troops himself and never raise that many troops himself and never raise that many troops himself and Hannibal I think correctly figures out Hannibal I think correctly figures out Hannibal I think correctly figures out the one way to maybe defeat Rome is to the one way to maybe defeat Rome is to the one way to maybe defeat Rome is to cut them away from their allies well how cut them away from their allies well how cut them away from their allies well how do you do this Hannibal's plan is I'm do you do this Hannibal's plan is I'm do you do this Hannibal's plan is I'm not going to wait and fight the Romans not going to wait and fight the Romans not going to wait and fight the Romans and Spain or North Africa I'm going to and Spain or North Africa I'm going to and Spain or North Africa I'm going to invade Italy so I'm going to strike at invade Italy so I'm going to strike at invade Italy so I'm going to strike at the heart of this growing Roman Empire the heart of this growing Roman Empire the heart of this growing Roman Empire and my hope is that if I can win a and my hope is that if I can win a and my hope is that if I can win a couple big battles against Rome in Italy couple big battles against Rome in Italy couple big battles against Rome in Italy the Italians will want their freedom the Italians will want their freedom the Italians will want their freedom back and they'll Rebel from Rome and back and they'll Rebel from Rome and back and they'll Rebel from Rome and maybe even join me because most people maybe even join me because most people maybe even join me because most people who have been conquered want their who have been conquered want their who have been conquered want their freedom back so this is a reasonable freedom back so this is a reasonable freedom back so this is a reasonable plan so Hannibal famously crosses the plan so Hannibal famously crosses the plan so Hannibal famously crosses the Alps with elephants dramatic stuff Alps with elephants dramatic stuff Alps with elephants dramatic stuff nobody expects him to do this nobody nobody expects him to do this nobody nobody expects him to do this nobody thinks you can do this shows up in thinks you can do this shows up in thinks you can do this shows up in Northern Italy Romans send an Army Northern Italy Romans send an Army Northern Italy Romans send an Army Hannibal massacres them he is a military Hannibal massacres them he is a military Hannibal massacres them he is a military genius Rome takes a year raises a second genius Rome takes a year raises a second genius Rome takes a year raises a second Army we know this story sends against Army we know this story sends against Army we know this story sends against Hannibal Hannibal wipes him out Rome Hannibal Hannibal wipes him out Rome Hannibal Hannibal wipes him out Rome gets clever this time they say Okay gets clever this time they say Okay gets clever this time they say Okay Hannibal's different we're going to take Hannibal's different we're going to take Hannibal's different we're going to take two years raise two armies and send them two years raise two armies and send them two years raise two armies and send them both out at the same time against both out at the same time against both out at the same time against Hannibal so they do this and this is the Hannibal so they do this and this is the Hannibal so they do this and this is the Battle of Kay which is one of the most Battle of Kay which is one of the most Battle of Kay which is one of the most famous battles in history uh Hannibal is famous battles in history uh Hannibal is famous battles in history uh Hannibal is facing this Army of 80 ,000 Romans about facing this Army of 80 ,000 Romans about facing this Army of 80 ,000 Romans about um and he comes up with a strategy

um and he comes up with a strategy um and he comes up with a strategy called double envelopment I mean we can called double envelopment I mean we can called double envelopment I mean we can go into it later if you want but this go into it later if you want but this go into it later if you want but this famous strategy where he basically kind famous strategy where he basically kind famous strategy where he basically kind of sucks the Romans in surrounds them on of sucks the Romans in surrounds them on of sucks the Romans in surrounds them on all sides and in one afternoon at the all sides and in one afternoon at the all sides and in one afternoon at the Battle of Ka Hannibal kills about Battle of Ka Hannibal kills about Battle of Ka Hannibal kills about 60,000 60,000 60,000 Romans now just to put that in Romans now just to put that in Romans now just to put that in perspective that's more Romans hacked to perspective that's more Romans hacked to perspective that's more Romans hacked to death in one afternoon with swords then death in one afternoon with swords then death in one afternoon with swords then Americans died in years in Americans died in years in Americans died in years in Vietnam the following is a conversation Vietnam the following is a conversation Vietnam the following is a conversation with Gregory aldr a historian with Gregory aldr a historian with Gregory aldr a historian specializing in ancient Rome and specializing in ancient Rome and specializing in ancient Rome and military history this is Alex freedon military history this is Alex freedon military history this is Alex freedon podcast to supported please check out podcast to supported please check out podcast to supported please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now dear friends here's Gregory dear friends here's Gregory dear friends here's Gregory aldr what do you think is the big aldr what do you think is the big aldr what do you think is the big difference between the ancient world and difference between the ancient world and difference between the ancient world and the modern world well the easy answer the modern world well the easy answer the modern world well the easy answer the one you often get is technology and the one you often get is technology and the one you often get is technology and obviously there's huge differences in obviously there's huge differences in obviously there's huge differences in technology between the ancient world and technology between the ancient world and technology between the ancient world and today but I think some of the more today but I think some of the more today but I think some of the more interesting stuff is a little bit more interesting stuff is a little bit more interesting stuff is a little bit more morphous things uh more structural morphous things uh more structural morphous things uh more structural things so I would say first of all things so I would say first of all things so I would say first of all childhood childhood childhood mortality uh in the ancient world and mortality uh in the ancient world and mortality uh in the ancient world and this is true of Greeks Romans Egyptians this is true of Greeks Romans Egyptians this is true of Greeks Romans Egyptians really anybody up until about the really anybody up until about the really anybody up until about the Industrial Revolution about 30 to 40% of Industrial Revolution about 30 to 40% of Industrial Revolution about 30 to 40% of kids died before they hit puberty so I kids died before they hit puberty so I kids died before they hit puberty so I mean put yourself in the place of an mean put yourself in the place of an mean put yourself in the place of an average inhabited the ancient world uh average inhabited the ancient world uh average inhabited the ancient world uh if you were an ancient person three or

if you were an ancient person three or if you were an ancient person three or four of your kids probably would have four of your kids probably would have four of your kids probably would have died you would have buried your children died you would have buried your children died you would have buried your children and nowadays we think of that as an and nowadays we think of that as an and nowadays we think of that as an unusual thing and just psychologically unusual thing and just psychologically unusual thing and just psychologically that's a huge thing you would have seen that's a huge thing you would have seen that's a huge thing you would have seen multiple of your siblings die um if multiple of your siblings die um if multiple of your siblings die um if you're a woman for example if you were you're a woman for example if you were you're a woman for example if you were lucky enough to make it to let's say age lucky enough to make it to let's say age lucky enough to make it to let's say age 13 you probably would have to give birth 13 you probably would have to give birth 13 you probably would have to give birth four or five times in order just to keep four or five times in order just to keep four or five times in order just to keep the population from dying out so those the population from dying out so those the population from dying out so those kind of Grim uh mortality statistics I kind of Grim uh mortality statistics I kind of Grim uh mortality statistics I think are a huge difference think are a huge difference think are a huge difference psychologically between the ancient psychologically between the ancient psychologically between the ancient world and the modern but fundamentally world and the modern but fundamentally world and the modern but fundamentally do you think human nature changed much do you think human nature changed much do you think human nature changed much do you think this the same elements of do you think this the same elements of do you think this the same elements of what we see today fear greed love hope what we see today fear greed love hope what we see today fear greed love hope optimism and cynicism you know the the optimism and cynicism you know the the optimism and cynicism you know the the underlying forces that result in war all underlying forces that result in war all underlying forces that result in war all of that permeates human history crude of that permeates human history crude of that permeates human history crude answer yes I think human nature is is is answer yes I think human nature is is is answer yes I think human nature is is is roughly constant um and for me as as an roughly constant um and for me as as an roughly constant um and for me as as an ancient historian the kind of documents ancient historian the kind of documents ancient historian the kind of documents that I really like dealing with are not that I really like dealing with are not that I really like dealing with are not the traditional literary sources but the traditional literary sources but the traditional literary sources but they're the things that give us those they're the things that give us those they're the things that give us those little glimps into everyday life so little glimps into everyday life so little glimps into everyday life so stuff like tombstones or graffiti or stuff like tombstones or graffiti or stuff like tombstones or graffiti or just uh something that survives on a just uh something that survives on a just uh something that survives on a scrap of parchment that records a scrap of parchment that records a scrap of parchment that records a financial transaction and whenever I financial transaction and whenever I financial transaction and whenever I read some of those I'll have this moment read some of those I'll have this moment read some of those I'll have this moment of you know feeling oh I know exactly of you know feeling oh I know exactly of you know feeling oh I know exactly how that person felt here across 2,000 how that person felt here across 2,000 how that person felt here across 2,000 years of time completely different

years of time completely different years of time completely different cultures I have this this spark of cultures I have this this spark of cultures I have this this spark of sympathy with someone from Antiquity and sympathy with someone from Antiquity and sympathy with someone from Antiquity and I think as a historian the way you begin I think as a historian the way you begin I think as a historian the way you begin to understand an alien a foreign culture to understand an alien a foreign culture to understand an alien a foreign culture which is what these cultures are is to which is what these cultures are is to which is what these cultures are is to look for those little moments of look for those little moments of look for those little moments of sympathy but on the other hand there's sympathy but on the other hand there's sympathy but on the other hand there's ways in which ancient cultures are ways in which ancient cultures are ways in which ancient cultures are wildly different from us so you also wildly different from us so you also wildly different from us so you also look for those moments where you just look for those moments where you just look for those moments where you just think how the hell could these people think how the hell could these people think how the hell could these people have done that I I just don't understand have done that I I just don't understand have done that I I just don't understand how they could have thought or acted in how they could have thought or acted in how they could have thought or acted in this way and it's lining up those this way and it's lining up those this way and it's lining up those moments of sympathy and kind of moments of sympathy and kind of moments of sympathy and kind of disconnection that I think is when you disconnection that I think is when you disconnection that I think is when you begin to start to understand a foreign begin to start to understand a foreign begin to start to understand a foreign culture or an ancient culture I love the culture or an ancient culture I love the culture or an ancient culture I love the idea of assembling the big picture from idea of assembling the big picture from idea of assembling the big picture from the details from the little pieces the details from the little pieces the details from the little pieces because that is the thing that makes up because that is the thing that makes up because that is the thing that makes up life the big picture is nothing without life the big picture is nothing without life the big picture is nothing without the details yep yep and those details the details yep yep and those details the details yep yep and those details would bring it to life you know I mean would bring it to life you know I mean would bring it to life you know I mean it's it's not the grand sweep of things it's it's not the grand sweep of things it's it's not the grand sweep of things it's seeing those little hopes and fears it's seeing those little hopes and fears it's seeing those little hopes and fears another thing that I think is a huge another thing that I think is a huge another thing that I think is a huge difference between the modern world and difference between the modern world and difference between the modern world and the ancient is just basically the ancient is just basically the ancient is just basically everybody's a farmer everybody's a small everybody's a farmer everybody's a small everybody's a farmer everybody's a small family farmer and we forget this yeah um family farmer and we forget this yeah um family farmer and we forget this yeah um I I was just writing a lecture for for I I was just writing a lecture for for I I was just writing a lecture for for my next um great chorus's course and I my next um great chorus's course and I my next um great chorus's course and I was writing about farming in the ancient was writing about farming in the ancient was writing about farming in the ancient world and I was really thinking if we world and I was really thinking if we world and I was really thinking if we were to write a realistic textbook of were to write a realistic textbook of were to write a realistic textbook of let's say the Roman Empire n out of 10 let's say the Roman Empire n out of 10 let's say the Roman Empire n out of 10 chapters should be details of what it chapters should be details of what it chapters should be details of what it was like to be a small all time Family was like to be a small all time Family was like to be a small all time Family farmer because that's what 90% of the farmer because that's what 90% of the farmer because that's what 90% of the people in the ancient world did they

people in the ancient world did they people in the ancient world did they weren't soldiers they weren't priests weren't soldiers they weren't priests weren't soldiers they weren't priests they weren't Kings they weren't authors they weren't Kings they weren't authors they weren't Kings they weren't authors they weren't artists they were small they weren't artists they were small they weren't artists they were small town family farmers and they lived in a town family farmers and they lived in a town family farmers and they lived in a little village they never traveled 20 little village they never traveled 20 little village they never traveled 20 miles from that Village they were born miles from that Village they were born miles from that Village they were born there they married somebody from there there they married somebody from there there they married somebody from there they raised kids they mucked around in they raised kids they mucked around in they raised kids they mucked around in the dirt for couple decades and they the dirt for couple decades and they the dirt for couple decades and they died they never saw a battle they never died they never saw a battle they never died they never saw a battle they never saw a work of art they never saw a saw a work of art they never saw a saw a work of art they never saw a philosopher they never took part in any philosopher they never took part in any philosopher they never took part in any of the things we Define as being history of the things we Define as being history of the things we Define as being history um so that's what life should be and um so that's what life should be and um so that's what life should be and that's representative nevertheless it is that's representative nevertheless it is that's representative nevertheless it is the Emperors and the philosophers and the Emperors and the philosophers and the Emperors and the philosophers and the artists and and the Warriors who the artists and and the Warriors who the artists and and the Warriors who carve history and it is the important carve history and it is the important carve history and it is the important stuff so I mean you know that's true stuff so I mean you know that's true stuff so I mean you know that's true that there's there's a reason we focus that there's there's a reason we focus that there's there's a reason we focus on that that's a good reminder though if on that that's a good reminder though if on that that's a good reminder though if we want to truly empathize and we want to truly empathize and we want to truly empathize and understand what life was like we have to understand what life was like we have to understand what life was like we have to represent it fully and and I would say represent it fully and and I would say represent it fully and and I would say let's not forget them so let's not let's not forget them so let's not let's not forget them so let's not forget what life was like for 80 90% of forget what life was like for 80 90% of forget what life was like for 80 90% of the people in the ancient world the ones the people in the ancient world the ones the people in the ancient world the ones we don't talk about because that's we don't talk about because that's we don't talk about because that's important too so the Roman important too so the Roman important too so the Roman Empire is widely considered to be the Empire is widely considered to be the Empire is widely considered to be the most powerful influential and impactful most powerful influential and impactful most powerful influential and impactful uh Empire in human history uh what are uh Empire in human history uh what are uh Empire in human history uh what are some reasons for that yeah I mean Rome some reasons for that yeah I mean Rome some reasons for that yeah I mean Rome is has been hugely influential I think is has been hugely influential I think is has been hugely influential I think just because of the image I mean there's just because of the image I mean there's just because of the image I mean there's all these practical ways I mean the the all these practical ways I mean the the all these practical ways I mean the the words I'm using to speak with you today words I'm using to speak with you today words I'm using to speak with you today 30% are direct from Latin another 30% 30% are direct from Latin another 30% 30% are direct from Latin another 30% are from Latin descended languages um

are from Latin descended languages um are from Latin descended languages um our law codes I mean our habits our our law codes I mean our habits our our law codes I mean our habits our holidays everything comes fairly holidays everything comes fairly holidays everything comes fairly directly from the ancient world but the directly from the ancient world but the directly from the ancient world but the image of Rome at least again in western image of Rome at least again in western image of Rome at least again in western civilization has really been the civilization has really been the civilization has really been the dominant image of a successful Empire um dominant image of a successful Empire um dominant image of a successful Empire um and I think that's what gives it a lot and I think that's what gives it a lot and I think that's what gives it a lot of its Fascination um this idea that oh of its Fascination um this idea that oh of its Fascination um this idea that oh it was this great powerful culturally it was this great powerful culturally it was this great powerful culturally influential Empire and there's a lot of influential Empire and there's a lot of influential Empire and there's a lot of other Empires I mean we could talk about other Empires I mean we could talk about other Empires I mean we could talk about ancient China which arguably was just as ancient China which arguably was just as ancient China which arguably was just as big as Rome just as culturally big as Rome just as culturally big as Rome just as culturally sophisticated lasted about the same sophisticated lasted about the same sophisticated lasted about the same amount of time but at least in western amount of time but at least in western amount of time but at least in western civilization Rome is the Paradigm but civilization Rome is the Paradigm but civilization Rome is the Paradigm but Rome is a little schizophrenic in that Rome is a little schizophrenic in that Rome is a little schizophrenic in that it's both the Empire when it was ruled it's both the Empire when it was ruled it's both the Empire when it was ruled by Emperors which is one kind of model by Emperors which is one kind of model by Emperors which is one kind of model and it's the Roman Republic when it was and it's the Roman Republic when it was and it's the Roman Republic when it was a pseudo democracy which is a different a pseudo democracy which is a different a pseudo democracy which is a different model and it's interesting how some model and it's interesting how some model and it's interesting how some later civilizations tend to either focus later civilizations tend to either focus later civilizations tend to either focus on one or the other of those so you know on one or the other of those so you know on one or the other of those so you know the United States revolutionary France the United States revolutionary France the United States revolutionary France they were very obsessed with the Roman they were very obsessed with the Roman they were very obsessed with the Roman Republic as a model but other people Republic as a model but other people Republic as a model but other people musolini Hitler Napoleon they were very musolini Hitler Napoleon they were very musolini Hitler Napoleon they were very obsessed with the Empire Victorian obsessed with the Empire Victorian obsessed with the Empire Victorian Britain um as a model so Rome itself has Britain um as a model so Rome itself has Britain um as a model so Rome itself has has different aspects well what I think has different aspects well what I think has different aspects well what I think is actually another big difference is actually another big difference is actually another big difference between the modern world and the ancient between the modern world and the ancient between the modern world and the ancient is our relationship with the past MH so is our relationship with the past MH so is our relationship with the past MH so one of the the keys to understanding all one of the the keys to understanding all one of the the keys to understanding all of Roman history is to understand that of Roman history is to understand that of Roman history is to understand that this was a people who were obsessed with this was a people who were obsessed with this was a people who were obsessed with the past and For Whom the past had power

the past and For Whom the past had power the past and For Whom the past had power uh not just as something inspirational uh not just as something inspirational uh not just as something inspirational but it actually dictated what you would but it actually dictated what you would but it actually dictated what you would do in your daily life and today do in your daily life and today do in your daily life and today especially in the United States we don't especially in the United States we don't especially in the United States we don't have much of relationship with the past have much of relationship with the past have much of relationship with the past we see ourselves as free agents just we see ourselves as free agents just we see ourselves as free agents just floating along not Tethered to what came floating along not Tethered to what came floating along not Tethered to what came before and and the classical story that before and and the classical story that before and and the classical story that I I sometimes tell in my classes to I I sometimes tell in my classes to I I sometimes tell in my classes to illustrate this is um Rome started out illustrate this is um Rome started out illustrate this is um Rome started out as a monarchy they had Kings they were as a monarchy they had Kings they were as a monarchy they had Kings they were kind of unhappy with their kings around kind of unhappy with their kings around kind of unhappy with their kings around 500 BC they held a revolution and they 500 BC they held a revolution and they 500 BC they held a revolution and they kicked out the Kings and one of the guys kicked out the Kings and one of the guys kicked out the Kings and one of the guys who played a key role in this was a man who played a key role in this was a man who played a key role in this was a man named Lucius Junius Brutus named Lucius Junius Brutus named Lucius Junius Brutus okay 500 years later 500 years down the okay 500 years later 500 years down the okay 500 years later 500 years down the road a guy comes along Julius Caesar who road a guy comes along Julius Caesar who road a guy comes along Julius Caesar who starts to act like a king so if you have starts to act like a king so if you have starts to act like a king so if you have trouble with Kings in Roman society who trouble with Kings in Roman society who trouble with Kings in Roman society who you going to call somebody named Brutus you going to call somebody named Brutus you going to call somebody named Brutus now as it happens there is a guy named now as it happens there is a guy named now as it happens there is a guy named Brutus in Roman society at this time who Brutus in Roman society at this time who Brutus in Roman society at this time who is one of Julius Caesar's best friends is one of Julius Caesar's best friends is one of Julius Caesar's best friends Marcus Junius Brutus now before I go Marcus Junius Brutus now before I go Marcus Junius Brutus now before I go further with the story and I think you further with the story and I think you further with the story and I think you probably know where it ends um I just probably know where it ends um I just probably know where it ends um I just have to talk about how important your have to talk about how important your have to talk about how important your ancestors are in Roman culture I mean if ancestors are in Roman culture I mean if ancestors are in Roman culture I mean if you if you went to an aristocratic you if you went to an aristocratic you if you went to an aristocratic Roman's house and opened the front door Roman's house and opened the front door Roman's house and opened the front door and walked in the first thing you would and walked in the first thing you would and walked in the first thing you would see would be a big wooden cabinet and if see would be a big wooden cabinet and if see would be a big wooden cabinet and if you open that up what you would see you open that up what you would see you open that up what you would see would be row after row of wax Death would be row after row of wax Death would be row after row of wax Death Masks so when a Roman Aristocrat died Masks so when a Roman Aristocrat died Masks so when a Roman Aristocrat died they literally put hot wax on his face

they literally put hot wax on his face they literally put hot wax on his face and made an impression of his face at and made an impression of his face at and made an impression of his face at that moment and they hung these in a big that moment and they hung these in a big that moment and they hung these in a big cabinet right inside the front door so cabinet right inside the front door so cabinet right inside the front door so every time you entered your house you every time you entered your house you every time you entered your house you were literally staring at the faces of were literally staring at the faces of were literally staring at the faces of your ancestors and every uh child in your ancestors and every uh child in your ancestors and every uh child in that family would have obsessively that family would have obsessively that family would have obsessively memorized every accomplishment of every memorized every accomplishment of every memorized every accomplishment of every one of those ancestors he would have one of those ancestors he would have one of those ancestors he would have known their career what offices they known their career what offices they known their career what offices they held what battles they fought in what held what battles they fought in what held what battles they fought in what they did uh when somebody new in the they did uh when somebody new in the they did uh when somebody new in the family died there would be a big funeral family died there would be a big funeral family died there would be a big funeral and they would talk about all the things and they would talk about all the things and they would talk about all the things their ancestors had did the kids in the their ancestors had did the kids in the their ancestors had did the kids in the family would literally take out those family would literally take out those family would literally take out those masks tie them onto their own faces and masks tie them onto their own faces and masks tie them onto their own faces and wear them in the funeral procession so wear them in the funeral procession so wear them in the funeral procession so you were like wearing the the face of you were like wearing the the face of you were like wearing the the face of your ancestors so you as an individual your ancestors so you as an individual your ancestors so you as an individual weren't important you were just the weren't important you were just the weren't important you were just the latest iteration of that family and latest iteration of that family and latest iteration of that family and there was enormous weight huge weight to there was enormous weight huge weight to there was enormous weight huge weight to live up to the Deeds of your ancestors live up to the Deeds of your ancestors live up to the Deeds of your ancestors so the Romans were absolutely obsessed so the Romans were absolutely obsessed so the Romans were absolutely obsessed with the past especially with your own with the past especially with your own with the past especially with your own family uh every Roman kid who was let's family uh every Roman kid who was let's family uh every Roman kid who was let's say an AR ristra family could tell you say an AR ristra family could tell you say an AR ristra family could tell you every one of his ancestors back every one of his ancestors back every one of his ancestors back centuries um I can't go beyond my centuries um I can't go beyond my centuries um I can't go beyond my grandparents I don't even know but grandparents I don't even know but grandparents I don't even know but that's you know maybe 100 years so it's that's you know maybe 100 years so it's that's you know maybe 100 years so it's a completely different attitude towards a completely different attitude towards a completely different attitude towards the past and the level of Celebration the past and the level of Celebration the past and the level of Celebration that we have now of the ancestors even that we have now of the ancestors even that we have now of the ancestors even the ones we can name is not as intense the ones we can name is not as intense the ones we can name is not as intense as it was in the Roman times I mean it as it was in the Roman times I mean it as it was in the Roman times I mean it was obsessive and oppressive it was obsessive and oppressive it was obsessive and oppressive it determined what you did yes because determined what you did yes because determined what you did yes because there's that weight for you to act like there's that weight for you to act like there's that weight for you to act like your ancestors did do you think not not your ancestors did do you think not not your ancestors did do you think not not to speak sort of philosophically but do to speak sort of philosophically but do to speak sort of philosophically but do you think it was uh limiting to the way

you think it was uh limiting to the way you think it was uh limiting to the way the society develops to be deeply the society develops to be deeply the society develops to be deeply constrained by the limiting in a good constrained by the limiting in a good constrained by the limiting in a good way or a bad way you think well you know way or a bad way you think well you know way or a bad way you think well you know like everything it's a little of both like everything it's a little of both like everything it's a little of both but the bad so on the one hand it gives but the bad so on the one hand it gives but the bad so on the one hand it gives them enormous strength and it gives them them enormous strength and it gives them them enormous strength and it gives them this enormous connection it gives them this enormous connection it gives them this enormous connection it gives them guidance but the negative what's guidance but the negative what's guidance but the negative what's interesting is it makes the Romans interesting is it makes the Romans interesting is it makes the Romans extremely traditional minded and extremely traditional minded and extremely traditional minded and extremely conservative and I mean extremely conservative and I mean extremely conservative and I mean conservative in the sense of uh conservative in the sense of uh conservative in the sense of uh resistant to change so in the late resistant to change so in the late resistant to change so in the late Republic which we'll probably talk about Republic which we'll probably talk about Republic which we'll probably talk about later Rome desperately needed to change later Rome desperately needed to change later Rome desperately needed to change certain things but it was a society that certain things but it was a society that certain things but it was a society that did things the way the ancestors did it did things the way the ancestors did it did things the way the ancestors did it and they didn't make some obvious and they didn't make some obvious and they didn't make some obvious changes which might have saved their changes which might have saved their changes which might have saved their Republic so that's the downside is that Republic so that's the downside is that Republic so that's the downside is that it locks you into something and you it locks you into something and you it locks you into something and you can't change but to get us back to the can't change but to get us back to the can't change but to get us back to the brutus's so 500 years after that first brutus's so 500 years after that first brutus's so 500 years after that first Brutus got rid of Kings Julius Caesar Brutus got rid of Kings Julius Caesar Brutus got rid of Kings Julius Caesar starts act like a king one of his best starts act like a king one of his best starts act like a king one of his best friends is Marcus Junius Brutus and friends is Marcus Junius Brutus and friends is Marcus Junius Brutus and literally in the middle of the night literally in the middle of the night literally in the middle of the night people go to brutus's house and write people go to brutus's house and write people go to brutus's house and write graffiti on it that says remember your graffiti on it that says remember your graffiti on it that says remember your ancestor uh and another one is I think ancestor uh and another one is I think ancestor uh and another one is I think uh you're no real Brutus and at that uh you're no real Brutus and at that uh you're no real Brutus and at that point he really has no choice he forms a point he really has no choice he forms a point he really has no choice he forms a conspiracy and on the Ides of March 44 conspiracy and on the Ides of March 44 conspiracy and on the Ides of March 44 BC he in 2 other Senators take daggers BC he in 2 other Senators take daggers BC he in 2 other Senators take daggers stick them in Julius Caesar and kill stick them in Julius Caesar and kill stick them in Julius Caesar and kill them for acting like a king so the way I them for acting like a king so the way I them for acting like a king so the way I always pose this to my students is how always pose this to my students is how always pose this to my students is how many of you would stick a knife in your many of you would stick a knife in your many of you would stick a knife in your best friend because of what your great

best friend because of what your great best friend because of what your great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather did that's commitment that's grandfather did that's commitment that's grandfather did that's commitment that's the power of the past yeah that's a the power of the past yeah that's a the power of the past yeah that's a society where the past isn't just society where the past isn't just society where the past isn't just influential but it dictates what you do influential but it dictates what you do influential but it dictates what you do and that concept I think is very alien and that concept I think is very alien and that concept I think is very alien to us today we can't imagine murdering to us today we can't imagine murdering to us today we can't imagine murdering our best friend because of what some our best friend because of what some our best friend because of what some incredibly distant ancestor did 500 incredibly distant ancestor did 500 incredibly distant ancestor did 500 years ago but to Brutus there is no years ago but to Brutus there is no years ago but to Brutus there is no choice you have to do that and a lot of choice you have to do that and a lot of choice you have to do that and a lot of societies have this power of the past societies have this power of the past societies have this power of the past today not so much but some still do today not so much but some still do today not so much but some still do about a decade ago I was in uh Serbia about a decade ago I was in uh Serbia about a decade ago I was in uh Serbia and I was talking to some of the people and I was talking to some of the people and I was talking to some of the people there about the the breakup of there about the the breakup of there about the the breakup of Yugoslavia and some of the wars had Yugoslavia and some of the wars had Yugoslavia and some of the wars had taken place where people turned against taken place where people turned against taken place where people turned against their neighbors basically murdered their neighbors basically murdered their neighbors basically murdered people that lived next to for decades people that lived next to for decades people that lived next to for decades and when I was talking to them some of and when I was talking to them some of and when I was talking to them some of them actually brought up things like oh them actually brought up things like oh them actually brought up things like oh well it was justified because in this well it was justified because in this well it was justified because in this battle in 12 whatever they did this and battle in 12 whatever they did this and battle in 12 whatever they did this and I was thinking wow you're citing I was thinking wow you're citing I was thinking wow you're citing something from 800 years ago to justify something from 800 years ago to justify something from 800 years ago to justify your actions today that's a modern your actions today that's a modern your actions today that's a modern person who still understands the power person who still understands the power person who still understands the power of the past or maybe is you know uh of the past or maybe is you know uh of the past or maybe is you know uh crippled by it is another way to view it crippled by it is another way to view it crippled by it is another way to view it so this is an interesting point and an so this is an interesting point and an so this is an interesting point and an interesting perspective to remember interesting perspective to remember interesting perspective to remember remember about the way the Romans remember about the way the Romans remember about the way the Romans thought especially in the context of how thought especially in the context of how thought especially in the context of how power is transferred whether it's power is transferred whether it's power is transferred whether it's hereditary or not which changes hereditary or not which changes hereditary or not which changes throughout Roman history so it's throughout Roman history so it's throughout Roman history so it's interesting it's interesting to remember interesting it's interesting to remember interesting it's interesting to remember that the value of the ancestors yep and

that the value of the ancestors yep and that the value of the ancestors yep and and just the weight of tradition the of and just the weight of tradition the of and just the weight of tradition the of Trad the Romans the the most myor is Trad the Romans the the most myor is Trad the Romans the the most myor is this Latin term which means the way the this Latin term which means the way the this Latin term which means the way the ancestors did it and it's kind of their ancestors did it and it's kind of their ancestors did it and it's kind of their word for tradition so for them tradition word for tradition so for them tradition word for tradition so for them tradition is what your forefathers and mothers did is what your forefathers and mothers did is what your forefathers and mothers did and and you have to follow that example and and you have to follow that example and and you have to follow that example and you have to live up to that does and you have to live up to that does and you have to live up to that does that mean that class Mobility was that mean that class Mobility was that mean that class Mobility was difficult so if your ancestors were difficult so if your ancestors were difficult so if your ancestors were farmers there was a major constraint on farmers there was a major constraint on farmers there was a major constraint on remaining a farmer essentially I mean remaining a farmer essentially I mean remaining a farmer essentially I mean the Romans all like to think of the Romans all like to think of the Romans all like to think of themselves as Farmers even Filthy Rich themselves as Farmers even Filthy Rich themselves as Farmers even Filthy Rich Romans it was just their national Romans it was just their national Romans it was just their national identity is the Citizen Soldier farmer identity is the Citizen Soldier farmer identity is the Citizen Soldier farmer thing right but it it did among the thing right but it it did among the thing right but it it did among the aristocrats the people who kind of ran aristocrats the people who kind of ran aristocrats the people who kind of ran things um yeah it was hard to break into things um yeah it was hard to break into things um yeah it was hard to break into that if you didn't have famous ancestors that if you didn't have famous ancestors that if you didn't have famous ancestors and it was such a big deal that that and it was such a big deal that that and it was such a big deal that that there was a specific term called a novas there was a specific term called a novas there was a specific term called a novas homo a new man for someone who was the homo a new man for someone who was the homo a new man for someone who was the first person in their uh family to get first person in their uh family to get first person in their uh family to get elected to a major office in the Roman elected to a major office in the Roman elected to a major office in the Roman government because that was a weird and government because that was a weird and government because that was a weird and different and new thing so you actually different and new thing so you actually different and new thing so you actually designated them by this special term so designated them by this special term so designated them by this special term so yeah you're absolutely right so if we yeah you're absolutely right so if we yeah you're absolutely right so if we may let us zoom out it would help me may let us zoom out it would help me may let us zoom out it would help me maybe it'll help the audience to look at maybe it'll help the audience to look at maybe it'll help the audience to look at the different periods that we've been the different periods that we've been the different periods that we've been talking about uh so you mentioned the talking about uh so you mentioned the talking about uh so you mentioned the Republic you mentioned maybe maybe when Republic you mentioned maybe maybe when Republic you mentioned maybe maybe when it took a form of Empire and maybe there it took a form of Empire and maybe there it took a form of Empire and maybe there was the age of Kings what are the was the age of Kings what are the was the age of Kings what are the different periods of this uh Roman let's different periods of this uh Roman let's different periods of this uh Roman let's call it what the big Roman history Roman call it what the big Roman history Roman call it what the big Roman history Roman history Y and a lot of people just call history Y and a lot of people just call history Y and a lot of people just call that whole period Roman Empire Loosely that whole period Roman Empire Loosely that whole period Roman Empire Loosely right so maybe can you speak the

right so maybe can you speak the right so maybe can you speak the different periods absolutely so different periods absolutely so different periods absolutely so conventionally Roman history is divided conventionally Roman history is divided conventionally Roman history is divided into three chronological periods the into three chronological periods the into three chronological periods the first of those is from 773 BC to 509 BC first of those is from 773 BC to 509 BC first of those is from 773 BC to 509 BC which is called the monarchy so all the which is called the monarchy so all the which is called the monarchy so all the period get their names from the form of period get their names from the form of period get their names from the form of government M so this is the earliest government M so this is the earliest government M so this is the earliest phase of Roman history it's when Rome is phase of Roman history it's when Rome is phase of Roman history it's when Rome is mostly just a a fairly undistinguished mostly just a a fairly undistinguished mostly just a a fairly undistinguished little collection of mud Huts honestly little collection of mud Huts honestly little collection of mud Huts honestly just like dozens of other cities of just like dozens of other cities of just like dozens of other cities of little mud Huts in Italy so that early little mud Huts in Italy so that early little mud Huts in Italy so that early phase about 750 to around 500 BC um is phase about 750 to around 500 BC um is phase about 750 to around 500 BC um is the monarchy they're ruled by Kings then the monarchy they're ruled by Kings then the monarchy they're ruled by Kings then there's this revolution they kick out there's this revolution they kick out there's this revolution they kick out the Kings they become a republic that the Kings they become a republic that the Kings they become a republic that lasts from 500 BC roughly to lasts from 500 BC roughly to lasts from 500 BC roughly to about either 31 or 27 BC depending what about either 31 or 27 BC depending what about either 31 or 27 BC depending what date you pick is most important but date you pick is most important but date you pick is most important but about 500 years and the Republic is when about 500 years and the Republic is when about 500 years and the Republic is when they have a republican form of they have a republican form of they have a republican form of government uh some people idealize this government uh some people idealize this government uh some people idealize this as Rome's greatest period and the big as Rome's greatest period and the big as Rome's greatest period and the big thing in that period is Rome first thing in that period is Rome first thing in that period is Rome first expands to conquer all of Italy in the expands to conquer all of Italy in the expands to conquer all of Italy in the first 250 years of that 500e stretch and first 250 years of that 500e stretch and first 250 years of that 500e stretch and then the second 250 years they conquer then the second 250 years they conquer then the second 250 years they conquer all the Mediterranean Basin roughly so all the Mediterranean Basin roughly so all the Mediterranean Basin roughly so this is this time of enormous uh this is this time of enormous uh this is this time of enormous uh successful Roman conquest and expansion successful Roman conquest and expansion successful Roman conquest and expansion and then you have another switch up and and then you have another switch up and and then you have another switch up and they become ruled by Emperors so back to they become ruled by Emperors so back to they become ruled by Emperors so back to the idea of one guy in charge though the the idea of one guy in charge though the the idea of one guy in charge though the Romans try to pretend it's not like a Romans try to pretend it's not like a Romans try to pretend it's not like a king it's something else and anyway we king it's something else and anyway we king it's something else and anyway we can get into that but they're very can get into that but they're very can get into that but they're very touchy about Kings so they have Emperors

touchy about Kings so they have Emperors touchy about Kings so they have Emperors Roman Empire the first emperor is Roman Empire the first emperor is Roman Empire the first emperor is Augustus um starts off as Octavian s is Augustus um starts off as Octavian s is Augustus um starts off as Octavian s is the name to Augustus when he becomes the name to Augustus when he becomes the name to Augustus when he becomes Emperor um he kind of sets the model for Emperor um he kind of sets the model for Emperor um he kind of sets the model for what happens and then how long does the what happens and then how long does the what happens and then how long does the Roman Empire asked that's one of those Roman Empire asked that's one of those Roman Empire asked that's one of those great questions um the conventional great questions um the conventional great questions um the conventional answer is usually sometime in the fifth answer is usually sometime in the fifth answer is usually sometime in the fifth century so the 400s ad so about another century so the 400s ad so about another century so the 400s ad so about another 500 years let's say it's a nice kind of 500 years let's say it's a nice kind of 500 years let's say it's a nice kind of even division uh 500 years of Republic even division uh 500 years of Republic even division uh 500 years of Republic 500 years of Empire but you can make 500 years of Empire but you can make 500 years of Empire but you can make very good cases uh for lots of other very good cases uh for lots of other very good cases uh for lots of other dates for the end of the Roman Empire um dates for the end of the Roman Empire um dates for the end of the Roman Empire um I actually think it goes all the way I actually think it goes all the way I actually think it goes all the way through the end of the Byzantine Empire through the end of the Byzantine Empire through the end of the Byzantine Empire and 1453 so another 1500 years but and 1453 so another 1500 years but and 1453 so another 1500 years but that's a whole another discussion but so that's a whole another discussion but so that's a whole another discussion but so that's your three phases of Roman that's your three phases of Roman that's your three phases of Roman history and in some fundamental way it history and in some fundamental way it history and in some fundamental way it still persists today given how much of still persists today given how much of still persists today given how much of its ideas Define our Modern Life its ideas Define our Modern Life its ideas Define our Modern Life especially in the western world yeah can especially in the western world yeah can especially in the western world yeah can you um speak to the relationship between you um speak to the relationship between you um speak to the relationship between ancient Greece and Roman Empire both in ancient Greece and Roman Empire both in ancient Greece and Roman Empire both in the chronological sense and in the the chronological sense and in the the chronological sense and in the influence sense well I mean ancient influence sense well I mean ancient influence sense well I mean ancient Greece Greece Greece comes the classical era of Greek comes the classical era of Greek comes the classical era of Greek civilization is around the 500s BC um civilization is around the 500s BC um civilization is around the 500s BC um that's when you have the great that's when you have the great that's when you have the great achievements of Athens it becomes the achievements of Athens it becomes the achievements of Athens it becomes the first sort of true democracy they defeat first sort of true democracy they defeat first sort of true democracy they defeat the Persian invasions a lot of famous the Persian invasions a lot of famous the Persian invasions a lot of famous stuff happens around in the 400s um stuff happens around in the 400s um stuff happens around in the 400s um let's say um so that is contemporaneous let's say um so that is contemporaneous let's say um so that is contemporaneous with Rome but it the Greek civilization

with Rome but it the Greek civilization with Rome but it the Greek civilization sense is peing earlier um and one of the sense is peing earlier um and one of the sense is peing earlier um and one of the things that happens is that Greece ends things that happens is that Greece ends things that happens is that Greece ends up being conquered by Rome in that up being conquered by Rome in that up being conquered by Rome in that second half of the Roman Republic second half of the Roman Republic second half of the Roman Republic between 250 and about uh 30 BC uh and so between 250 and about uh 30 BC uh and so between 250 and about uh 30 BC uh and so Greece falls under the control of Rome Greece falls under the control of Rome Greece falls under the control of Rome and Rome is very heavily influenced by and Rome is very heavily influenced by and Rome is very heavily influenced by Greek culture uh they themselves see the Greek culture uh they themselves see the Greek culture uh they themselves see the Greeks as a superior civilization Greeks as a superior civilization Greeks as a superior civilization culturally more sophisticated great art culturally more sophisticated great art culturally more sophisticated great art great philosophy all this and another great philosophy all this and another great philosophy all this and another thing about the Romans is they they're thing about the Romans is they they're thing about the Romans is they they're super competitive so one of the things super competitive so one of the things super competitive so one of the things that one of the engines that drives uh that one of the engines that drives uh that one of the engines that drives uh Romans is this public competitiveness Romans is this public competitiveness Romans is this public competitiveness especially among the upper classes uh especially among the upper classes uh especially among the upper classes uh they care more about their status and they care more about their status and they care more about their status and standing among their peers than they do standing among their peers than they do standing among their peers than they do about money or even their own life so about money or even their own life so about money or even their own life so there's this intense competition and there's this intense competition and there's this intense competition and when they conquer Greece Greek culture when they conquer Greece Greek culture when they conquer Greece Greek culture just becomes one more Arena of just becomes one more Arena of just becomes one more Arena of competition so Romans will start to competition so Romans will start to competition so Romans will start to learn Greek they'll start to memorize learn Greek they'll start to memorize learn Greek they'll start to memorize Homer they'll start to see who can quote Homer they'll start to see who can quote Homer they'll start to see who can quote more passages of Homer in Greek in their more passages of Homer in Greek in their more passages of Homer in Greek in their letters to one another because that letters to one another because that letters to one another because that increases their status so Rome kind of increases their status so Rome kind of increases their status so Rome kind of absorbs Greek civilization and then the absorbs Greek civilization and then the absorbs Greek civilization and then the two get fused together um the other two get fused together um the other two get fused together um the other thing I should mention in terms of thing I should mention in terms of thing I should mention in terms of influences that's really huge on Rome is influences that's really huge on Rome is influences that's really huge on Rome is the atrans and this is one that comes the atrans and this is one that comes the atrans and this is one that comes along before the Greeks so the atrans along before the Greeks so the atrans along before the Greeks so the atrans were this yeah kind of mysterious were this yeah kind of mysterious were this yeah kind of mysterious culture that flourished in Northern culture that flourished in Northern culture that flourished in Northern Italy before the Romans so way back 800 Italy before the Romans so way back 800 Italy before the Romans so way back 800 BC they were much more powerful than the

BC they were much more powerful than the BC they were much more powerful than the Romans they were kind of a loose Romans they were kind of a loose Romans they were kind of a loose Confederation of states for while the Confederation of states for while the Confederation of states for while the Romans even seemed to have been under a Romans even seemed to have been under a Romans even seemed to have been under a truscan control the last of the Roman truscan control the last of the Roman truscan control the last of the Roman kings was really an at truscan guy kings was really an at truscan guy kings was really an at truscan guy pretty clearly um but the atrans end up pretty clearly um but the atrans end up pretty clearly um but the atrans end up uh giving to Rome or you could say Rome uh giving to Rome or you could say Rome uh giving to Rome or you could say Rome ends up stealing perhaps a lot of ends up stealing perhaps a lot of ends up stealing perhaps a lot of elements of at truscan culture and many elements of at truscan culture and many elements of at truscan culture and many of the things that we today think of as of the things that we today think of as of the things that we today think of as distinctively Roman that you know was distinctively Roman that you know was distinctively Roman that you know was our cliches of what a Roman is actually our cliches of what a Roman is actually our cliches of what a Roman is actually aren't truly Roman they're stuff they aren't truly Roman they're stuff they aren't truly Roman they're stuff they stole from the rusans so just a couple stole from the rusans so just a couple stole from the rusans so just a couple examples the toga what do you think of a examples the toga what do you think of a examples the toga what do you think of a Roman it's it's a guy wearing a toga and Roman it's it's a guy wearing a toga and Roman it's it's a guy wearing a toga and the toga is the mark of Roman citizen the toga is the mark of Roman citizen the toga is the mark of Roman citizen well that's what trus and Kings wore well that's what trus and Kings wore well that's what trus and Kings wore probably probably probably uh Gladiator games we associate those uh Gladiator games we associate those uh Gladiator games we associate those very intensely with the Romans well they very intensely with the Romans well they very intensely with the Romans well they probably stole that from the at truskin probably stole that from the at truskin probably stole that from the at truskin uh a lot of Roman religion uh Jupiter is uh a lot of Roman religion uh Jupiter is uh a lot of Roman religion uh Jupiter is a Thunder God uh all sorts of divination a Thunder God uh all sorts of divination a Thunder God uh all sorts of divination the Romans love to you know chop open the Romans love to you know chop open the Romans love to you know chop open animals and look at their livers and animals and look at their livers and animals and look at their livers and predict the future um that comes from predict the future um that comes from predict the future um that comes from the at truskin uh watching the flight of the at truskin uh watching the flight of the at truskin uh watching the flight of birds to predict the future that comes birds to predict the future that comes birds to predict the future that comes from the at truskin so there's a lot of from the at truskin so there's a lot of from the at truskin so there's a lot of central elements of what we think of as central elements of what we think of as central elements of what we think of as Roman civilization which actually are Roman civilization which actually are Roman civilization which actually are borrowings let's say from these older borrowings let's say from these older borrowings let's say from these older slightly mysterious at truskin I mean slightly mysterious at truskin I mean slightly mysterious at truskin I mean that's a really powerful thing that's a that's a really powerful thing that's a that's a really powerful thing that's a powerful aspect of a civilization to be powerful aspect of a civilization to be powerful aspect of a civilization to be able to we can call it stealing which is able to we can call it stealing which is able to we can call it stealing which is a negative connotation but you can also a negative connotation but you can also a negative connotation but you can also see it as integration basically uh yes see it as integration basically uh yes see it as integration basically uh yes steal the best stuff from the peoples steal the best stuff from the peoples steal the best stuff from the peoples you conquer or the people's uh uh that

you conquer or the people's uh uh that you conquer or the people's uh uh that you interact with that not every Empire you interact with that not every Empire you interact with that not every Empire does that there there's a lot of uh uh does that there there's a lot of uh uh does that there there's a lot of uh uh Nations and Empires that when they Nations and Empires that when they Nations and Empires that when they conquer they annihilate versus integrate conquer they annihilate versus integrate conquer they annihilate versus integrate and so it's an interesting thing to be and so it's an interesting thing to be and so it's an interesting thing to be able to culturally like the form that able to culturally like the form that able to culturally like the form that the competitiveness takes is that you the competitiveness takes is that you the competitiveness takes is that you want to compete in the realm of ideas want to compete in the realm of ideas want to compete in the realm of ideas and culture versus compete strictly in and culture versus compete strictly in and culture versus compete strictly in the realm of military conquest yeah and the realm of military conquest yeah and the realm of military conquest yeah and I think you've exactly put your finger I think you've exactly put your finger I think you've exactly put your finger on one of the uh let's say secrets of on one of the uh let's say secrets of on one of the uh let's say secrets of Rome's success which is that they're Rome's success which is that they're Rome's success which is that they're very good at integrating non-romans or very good at integrating non-romans or very good at integrating non-romans or non-roman ideas and kind of absorbing non-roman ideas and kind of absorbing non-roman ideas and kind of absorbing them so uh one of the things that that's them so uh one of the things that that's them so uh one of the things that that's absolutely crucial early in Roman absolutely crucial early in Roman absolutely crucial early in Roman history when they're when when they're history when they're when when they're history when they're when when they're just one of these tiny little mud hut just one of these tiny little mud hut just one of these tiny little mud hut Villages fighting dozens of other mud Villages fighting dozens of other mud Villages fighting dozens of other mud hut villages in Italy why does Rome hut villages in Italy why does Rome hut villages in Italy why does Rome emerge as the dominant one well one of emerge as the dominant one well one of emerge as the dominant one well one of the things they do is when they do the things they do is when they do the things they do is when they do finally succeed in conquering somebody finally succeed in conquering somebody finally succeed in conquering somebody else let's say another uh italianate else let's say another uh italianate else let's say another uh italianate people they do something very unusual people they do something very unusual people they do something very unusual because the normal procedure in the because the normal procedure in the because the normal procedure in the ancient world is you conquer some let's ancient world is you conquer some let's ancient world is you conquer some let's say you conquer another city you often say you conquer another city you often say you conquer another city you often kill both of the men enslave the women kill both of the men enslave the women kill both of the men enslave the women and children steal all the stuff right and children steal all the stuff right and children steal all the stuff right the Romans at least with the Italians the Romans at least with the Italians the Romans at least with the Italians conquer the other city and sometimes conquer the other city and sometimes conquer the other city and sometimes they'll do that but sometimes they'll they'll do that but sometimes they'll they'll do that but sometimes they'll also then say all right we're going to also then say all right we're going to also then say all right we're going to now leave you alone and we're going to now leave you alone and we're going to now leave you alone and we're going to share with you a degree of Roman share with you a degree of Roman share with you a degree of Roman citizenship sometimes they'd make them citizenship sometimes they'd make them citizenship sometimes they'd make them full citizens more often they'd make

full citizens more often they'd make full citizens more often they'd make them something we call half citizens them something we call half citizens them something we call half citizens which is kind of what sounds like you which is kind of what sounds like you which is kind of what sounds like you get some of the Privileges of get some of the Privileges of get some of the Privileges of citizenship but not all of them citizenship but not all of them citizenship but not all of them sometimes they would just make them sometimes they would just make them sometimes they would just make them allies but they would sort of allies but they would sort of allies but they would sort of incorporate them into the Roman project incorporate them into the Roman project incorporate them into the Roman project and they wouldn't necessarily ask for and they wouldn't necessarily ask for and they wouldn't necessarily ask for money or taxes which is weird too but money or taxes which is weird too but money or taxes which is weird too but instead the one thing they would always instead the one thing they would always instead the one thing they would always always demand from the conquered cities always demand from the conquered cities always demand from the conquered cities in Italy is that they provide troops to in Italy is that they provide troops to in Italy is that they provide troops to the Roman army so the Army becomes this the Roman army so the Army becomes this the Roman army so the Army becomes this mechanism of romanization where you you mechanism of romanization where you you mechanism of romanization where you you pull in foreigners you make them like pull in foreigners you make them like pull in foreigners you make them like you and then they end up fighting for you and then they end up fighting for you and then they end up fighting for you and early on the secret to Rome's you and early on the secret to Rome's you and early on the secret to Rome's military Success is Not that they have military Success is Not that they have military Success is Not that they have better generals it's not that they have better generals it's not that they have better generals it's not that they have better equipment it's not that they have better equipment it's not that they have better equipment it's not that they have better strategy or tactics it's that better strategy or tactics it's that better strategy or tactics it's that they have Limitless Manpower relatively they have Limitless Manpower relatively they have Limitless Manpower relatively speaking so they lose a war and they speaking so they lose a war and they speaking so they lose a war and they just come back and fight again and they just come back and fight again and they just come back and fight again and they lose again and they come back and they lose again and they come back and they lose again and they come back and they fight again and eventually they just fight again and eventually they just fight again and eventually they just wear down their enemies because their wear down their enemies because their wear down their enemies because their key thing of their policy is we key thing of their policy is we key thing of their policy is we incorporate the conquered people and and incorporate the conquered people and and incorporate the conquered people and and the great moment that just exemplifies the great moment that just exemplifies the great moment that just exemplifies this is is pretty late in this process this is is pretty late in this process this is is pretty late in this process so they've been doing this for 250 years so they've been doing this for 250 years so they've been doing this for 250 years just about and they've gotten down to just about and they've gotten down to just about and they've gotten down to the toe of Italy they're Conquering the the toe of Italy they're Conquering the the toe of Italy they're Conquering the very last cities down there and one of very last cities down there and one of very last cities down there and one of the last cities is actually a Greek city the last cities is actually a Greek city the last cities is actually a Greek city it's a Greek colony it's a wealthy City it's a Greek colony it's a wealthy City it's a Greek colony it's a wealthy City and so when the Romans show up on the and so when the Romans show up on the and so when the Romans show up on the doorstep and are about to attack them doorstep and are about to attack them doorstep and are about to attack them they do what any Rich uh Greek colony or they do what any Rich uh Greek colony or they do what any Rich uh Greek colony or city does they go out and hire the best city does they go out and hire the best city does they go out and hire the best mercenaries they can and they hire this mercenaries they can and they hire this mercenaries they can and they hire this guy who thinks of himself as uh the new

guy who thinks of himself as uh the new guy who thinks of himself as uh the new Alexander the Great a man named purus of Alexander the Great a man named purus of Alexander the Great a man named purus of aus so he's a mercenary he's actually aus so he's a mercenary he's actually aus so he's a mercenary he's actually related Alexander distantly um he has a related Alexander distantly um he has a related Alexander distantly um he has a terrific army top-notch army he's got terrific army top-notch army he's got terrific army top-notch army he's got elephants uh you know he's got all the elephants uh you know he's got all the elephants uh you know he's got all the latest military technology the Romans latest military technology the Romans latest military technology the Romans come and fight a battle against him and come and fight a battle against him and come and fight a battle against him and purus knows what he's doing he he wipes purus knows what he's doing he he wipes purus knows what he's doing he he wipes out the Romans he thinks okay now we'll out the Romans he thinks okay now we'll out the Romans he thinks okay now we'll have a peace treaty we'll negotiate have a peace treaty we'll negotiate have a peace treaty we'll negotiate something I can go home but the Romans something I can go home but the Romans something I can go home but the Romans won't even talk they go to their Italian won't even talk they go to their Italian won't even talk they go to their Italian allies and half citizens they raise a allies and half citizens they raise a allies and half citizens they raise a second army they send it against purus second army they send it against purus second army they send it against purus purus says okay these guys are slow purus says okay these guys are slow purus says okay these guys are slow Learners fine he fights them again wipes Learners fine he fights them again wipes Learners fine he fights them again wipes them out thinks now we'll have a peace them out thinks now we'll have a peace them out thinks now we'll have a peace treaty but the Romans go back to the treaty but the Romans go back to the treaty but the Romans go back to the Allies raise a third Army and send it Allies raise a third Army and send it Allies raise a third Army and send it after purus and when he sees that third after purus and when he sees that third after purus and when he sees that third Army coming he says I can't afford to Army coming he says I can't afford to Army coming he says I can't afford to win another battle I win these battles win another battle I win these battles win another battle I win these battles but each time I lose some of my troops but each time I lose some of my troops but each time I lose some of my troops and I can't replace them and the Romans and I can't replace them and the Romans and I can't replace them and the Romans just keep sprouting new armies so he just keep sprouting new armies so he just keep sprouting new armies so he gives up and goes home so Rome kind of gives up and goes home so Rome kind of gives up and goes home so Rome kind of loses every battle but wins the war and loses every battle but wins the war and loses every battle but wins the war and purus one of his actually his officers purus one of his actually his officers purus one of his actually his officers has a great line as they're kind of has a great line as they're kind of has a great line as they're kind of going back to Greece he says fighting going back to Greece he says fighting going back to Greece he says fighting the Romans is like fighting a Hydra and the Romans is like fighting a Hydra and the Romans is like fighting a Hydra and a Hydra is this mythological monster a Hydra is this mythological monster a Hydra is this mythological monster that when you cut off one head two more that when you cut off one head two more that when you cut off one head two more grow in its place so you can just never grow in its place so you can just never grow in its place so you can just never win that's fascinating so that's the win that's fascinating so that's the win that's fascinating so that's the secret to Rome's early success that's secret to Rome's early success that's secret to Rome's early success that's not the military strategy it's not some

not the military strategy it's not some not the military strategy it's not some technological asymmetry of power it's technological asymmetry of power it's technological asymmetry of power it's literally just Manpower mhm early on and literally just Manpower mhm early on and literally just Manpower mhm early on and and later uh the Romans get very good and later uh the Romans get very good and later uh the Romans get very good when we're into the Empire phase now so when we're into the Empire phase now so when we're into the Empire phase now so once they have Emperors into the ad era once they have Emperors into the ad era once they have Emperors into the ad era of um kind of doing the same thing by of um kind of doing the same thing by of um kind of doing the same thing by drawing in the best and the brightest drawing in the best and the brightest drawing in the best and the brightest and the most ambitious and the most and the most ambitious and the most and the most ambitious and the most talented local leaders that of the talented local leaders that of the talented local leaders that of the people they conquer so when they go people they conquer so when they go people they conquer so when they go someplace let say they conquer a tribe someplace let say they conquer a tribe someplace let say they conquer a tribe of what to them is barbarians they'll of what to them is barbarians they'll of what to them is barbarians they'll often take the sons of the Barbarian often take the sons of the Barbarian often take the sons of the Barbarian Chiefs bring them to Rome and raise them Chiefs bring them to Rome and raise them Chiefs bring them to Rome and raise them as Romans damn and so it's that whole as Romans damn and so it's that whole as Romans damn and so it's that whole way of kind of turning your enemies into way of kind of turning your enemies into way of kind of turning your enemies into your own strength and the Romans start your own strength and the Romans start your own strength and the Romans start uh giving citizenship to areas they uh giving citizenship to areas they uh giving citizenship to areas they conquer so once they move out of Italy conquer so once they move out of Italy conquer so once they move out of Italy they aren't as free with the citizenship they aren't as free with the citizenship they aren't as free with the citizenship but eventually they do so they make but eventually they do so they make but eventually they do so they make Spain uh lost cities in Spain they make Spain uh lost cities in Spain they make Spain uh lost cities in Spain they make all citizens and other places and soon all citizens and other places and soon all citizens and other places and soon enough the Roman emperors and the Roman enough the Roman emperors and the Roman enough the Roman emperors and the Roman senators are not Italians they're coming senators are not Italians they're coming senators are not Italians they're coming from Spain Spain or North Africa or from Spain Spain or North Africa or from Spain Spain or North Africa or Germany or wherever so you know as early Germany or wherever so you know as early Germany or wherever so you know as early as the 2 Century ad of the Roman Empire as the 2 Century ad of the Roman Empire as the 2 Century ad of the Roman Empire so the first set of Emperors the first so the first set of Emperors the first so the first set of Emperors the first hundred years were all Italians but hundred years were all Italians but hundred years were all Italians but right away at the beginning of the 2 right away at the beginning of the 2 right away at the beginning of the 2 Century ad you have Tran who's from Century ad you have Tran who's from Century ad you have Tran who's from Spain and the next guy Hadrian's from Spain and the next guy Hadrian's from Spain and the next guy Hadrian's from Spain and then a Central Area you have Spain and then a Central Area you have Spain and then a Central Area you have septimia Severus who's from North Africa septimia Severus who's from North Africa septimia Severus who's from North Africa uh you later get guys from Syria so I uh you later get guys from Syria so I uh you later get guys from Syria so I mean the actual leaders of the Roman mean the actual leaders of the Roman mean the actual leaders of the Roman Empire are coming from the provinces

Empire are coming from the provinces Empire are coming from the provinces that's it's that openness to that's it's that openness to that's it's that openness to incorporating foreigners making them incorporating foreigners making them incorporating foreigners making them work for you making them want to be part work for you making them want to be part work for you making them want to be part of your Empire that I think is one of of your Empire that I think is one of of your Empire that I think is one of this Rome strengths yeah taking the Suns this Rome strengths yeah taking the Suns this Rome strengths yeah taking the Suns is a brilliant idea and bringing them to is a brilliant idea and bringing them to is a brilliant idea and bringing them to Rome because it's a kind of generational Rome because it's a kind of generational Rome because it's a kind of generational integration and and the Roman military integration and and the Roman military integration and and the Roman military later in the Empire is this giant later in the Empire is this giant later in the Empire is this giant machine of half a million people that machine of half a million people that machine of half a million people that takes in foreigners and turns out Romans takes in foreigners and turns out Romans takes in foreigners and turns out Romans so the the Army is composed of two so the the Army is composed of two so the the Army is composed of two groups you have the Roman legionaries groups you have the Roman legionaries groups you have the Roman legionaries who are all citizens but then you have who are all citizens but then you have who are all citizens but then you have another group that's just as large about another group that's just as large about another group that's just as large about 250,000 of each 250,000 legionaries 250,000 of each 250,000 legionaries 250,000 of each 250,000 legionaries 250,000 of the second group called 250,000 of the second group called 250,000 of the second group called auxiliaries and auxiliaries tend to be auxiliaries and auxiliaries tend to be auxiliaries and auxiliaries tend to be newly conquered warlike people that the newly conquered warlike people that the newly conquered warlike people that the Romans enlist as auxiliaries to fight Romans enlist as auxiliaries to fight Romans enlist as auxiliaries to fight with them and they sered side by side with them and they sered side by side with them and they sered side by side with the Roman Legions for 25 years um with the Roman Legions for 25 years um with the Roman Legions for 25 years um and at the end of that time when they're and at the end of that time when they're and at the end of that time when they're discharged what do they get they get discharged what do they get they get discharged what do they get they get Roman citizenship and their kids then Roman citizenship and their kids then Roman citizenship and their kids then tend to become Roman legionaries so tend to become Roman legionaries so tend to become Roman legionaries so again you're taking the most warlike and again you're taking the most warlike and again you're taking the most warlike and potentially dangerous of your enemies potentially dangerous of your enemies potentially dangerous of your enemies kind of absorbing them putting through kind of absorbing them putting through kind of absorbing them putting through this thing for 25 years where they learn this thing for 25 years where they learn this thing for 25 years where they learn Latin they learn Roman Customs they Latin they learn Roman Customs they Latin they learn Roman Customs they maybe marry uh someone who's already a maybe marry uh someone who's already a maybe marry uh someone who's already a Roman or a Latin woman um they have kids Roman or a Latin woman um they have kids Roman or a Latin woman um they have kids within the system their kids become within the system their kids become within the system their kids become Roman legionaries and and you've Roman legionaries and and you've Roman legionaries and and you've thoroughly integrated what could have thoroughly integrated what could have thoroughly integrated what could have been your biggest enemies right your

been your biggest enemies right your been your biggest enemies right your greatest threat that's just brilliant greatest threat that's just brilliant greatest threat that's just brilliant brilliant process of integration is that brilliant process of integration is that brilliant process of integration is that what explains the rapid expansion during what explains the rapid expansion during what explains the rapid expansion during the uh late Republic no so there it's the uh late Republic no so there it's the uh late Republic no so there it's more the the indigenous uh Italians who more the the indigenous uh Italians who more the the indigenous uh Italians who are in the Army at that point they are in the Army at that point they are in the Army at that point they haven't really expanded the auxiliaries haven't really expanded the auxiliaries haven't really expanded the auxiliaries yet that's more something that happens yet that's more something that happens yet that's more something that happens in the Empire so yeah so back it up so in the Empire so yeah so back it up so in the Empire so yeah so back it up so we have that first 250 years of the uh we have that first 250 years of the uh we have that first 250 years of the uh Roman Republic so from about 500 to Roman Republic so from about 500 to Roman Republic so from about 500 to let's say 250 BC um and in that period let's say 250 BC um and in that period let's say 250 BC um and in that period they gradually expand throughout Italy they gradually expand throughout Italy they gradually expand throughout Italy conquer the other Italian cities who are conquer the other Italian cities who are conquer the other Italian cities who are pretty much like them so they're people pretty much like them so they're people pretty much like them so they're people who already speak similar languages or who already speak similar languages or who already speak similar languages or the same language have the same Gods the same language have the same Gods the same language have the same Gods it's easy to integrate them that's the it's easy to integrate them that's the it's easy to integrate them that's the ones they make the half citizens and ones they make the half citizens and ones they make the half citizens and allies then in the second half that allies then in the second half that allies then in the second half that period from about 250 to let's say 30 BC period from about 250 to let's say 30 BC period from about 250 to let's say 30 BC Rome goes outside of Italy and this is a Rome goes outside of Italy and this is a Rome goes outside of Italy and this is a new world because now they're new world because now they're new world because now they're encountering people who are really encountering people who are really encountering people who are really fundamentally different so true others fundamentally different so true others fundamentally different so true others they do not have the same gods they they do not have the same gods they they do not have the same gods they don't speak the same language they have don't speak the same language they have don't speak the same language they have fundamentally different systems of fundamentally different systems of fundamentally different systems of economy everything and Rome first economy everything and Rome first economy everything and Rome first expands in the Western expands in the Western expands in the Western Mediterranean and there their big rival Mediterranean and there their big rival Mediterranean and there their big rival is the city state of Carthage which is is the city state of Carthage which is is the city state of Carthage which is uh another city founded almost the same uh another city founded almost the same uh another city founded almost the same time as Rome that has also been a young time as Rome that has also been a young time as Rome that has also been a young vigorously expanding aggressive Empire vigorously expanding aggressive Empire vigorously expanding aggressive Empire so in the Western Empire at this time so in the Western Empire at this time so in the Western Empire at this time you have two sort of uh rivals groups

you have two sort of uh rivals groups you have two sort of uh rivals groups and they're very different because the and they're very different because the and they're very different because the Romans are these Citizen Soldier Farmers Romans are these Citizen Soldier Farmers Romans are these Citizen Soldier Farmers so the Romans are all these small so the Romans are all these small so the Romans are all these small farmers That's the basis of their farmers That's the basis of their farmers That's the basis of their economy and it's the Romans who serve in economy and it's the Romans who serve in economy and it's the Romans who serve in the Army so the person who is a citizen the Army so the person who is a citizen the Army so the person who is a citizen is also really by main profession a is also really by main profession a is also really by main profession a farmer and then in times of War he farmer and then in times of War he farmer and then in times of War he becomes a soldier Carthage is an becomes a soldier Carthage is an becomes a soldier Carthage is an oligarchy of merchants so it's a very oligarchy of merchants so it's a very oligarchy of merchants so it's a very small citizen body they make their money small citizen body they make their money small citizen body they make their money through Maritime trade so they have through Maritime trade so they have through Maritime trade so they have ships that go all over the Mediterranean ships that go all over the Mediterranean ships that go all over the Mediterranean they don't have a large army of they don't have a large army of they don't have a large army of carthaginians instead they hire carthaginians instead they hire carthaginians instead they hire mercenaries mostly to fight for them so mercenaries mostly to fight for them so mercenaries mostly to fight for them so it's almost these two rival uh systems it's almost these two rival uh systems it's almost these two rival uh systems you know it's different philosophies you know it's different philosophies you know it's different philosophies different economies everything um Rome different economies everything um Rome different economies everything um Rome is strong on land Carthage is strong at is strong on land Carthage is strong at is strong on land Carthage is strong at Sea so there's this this dichotomy but Sea so there's this this dichotomy but Sea so there's this this dichotomy but they're both looking to expand and they they're both looking to expand and they they're both looking to expand and they repeatedly come into conflict as they repeatedly come into conflict as they repeatedly come into conflict as they expand so Carthage is on the coast of expand so Carthage is on the coast of expand so Carthage is on the coast of North Africa romes in central Italy North Africa romes in central Italy North Africa romes in central Italy what's right between them the island of what's right between them the island of what's right between them the island of Sicily so the first big war is fought Sicily so the first big war is fought Sicily so the first big war is fought purely dictated by geography who gets purely dictated by geography who gets purely dictated by geography who gets Sicily Rome or Carthage um and Rome wins Sicily Rome or Carthage um and Rome wins Sicily Rome or Carthage um and Rome wins in the end they get it um but Carthage in the end they get it um but Carthage in the end they get it um but Carthage is still strong they're not weakened so is still strong they're not weakened so is still strong they're not weakened so Carthage is now looking to expand the Carthage is now looking to expand the Carthage is now looking to expand the next place to go is Spain so they go and next place to go is Spain so they go and next place to go is Spain so they go and take Spain Rome meanwhile is moving take Spain Rome meanwhile is moving take Spain Rome meanwhile is moving along the coast of what today's France along the coast of what today's France along the coast of what today's France where are they going to meet up on the where are they going to meet up on the where are they going to meet up on the border of Spain and France and there's a border of Spain and France and there's a border of Spain and France and there's a city at that point in at this point in city at that point in at this point in city at that point in at this point in time called saguntum the second big war

time called saguntum the second big war time called saguntum the second big war between Rome and Carthage is over who between Rome and Carthage is over who between Rome and Carthage is over who gets santum so I mean you can just look gets santum so I mean you can just look gets santum so I mean you can just look at a map and see this stuff coming uh at a map and see this stuff coming uh at a map and see this stuff coming uh sometimes geography is is inevitability sometimes geography is is inevitability sometimes geography is is inevitability and I think in in the course of the the and I think in in the course of the the and I think in in the course of the the wars between Rome and Carthage called wars between Rome and Carthage called wars between Rome and Carthage called the Punic Wars uh there's this the Punic Wars uh there's this the Punic Wars uh there's this Geographic inevitability to them can you Geographic inevitability to them can you Geographic inevitability to them can you speak to the Punic Wars what why was uh speak to the Punic Wars what why was uh speak to the Punic Wars what why was uh there's so many levels on which we can there's so many levels on which we can there's so many levels on which we can talk about this but why was Rome talk about this but why was Rome talk about this but why was Rome Victorious well the Punic War really Victorious well the Punic War really Victorious well the Punic War really almost always comes down to the Second almost always comes down to the Second almost always comes down to the Second Punic War there's three there's three Punic War there's three there's three Punic War there's three there's three Punic Wars the first is over Sicily Rome Punic Wars the first is over Sicily Rome Punic Wars the first is over Sicily Rome wins the second is the big one um and wins the second is the big one um and wins the second is the big one um and it's the big one because Carthage at it's the big one because Carthage at it's the big one because Carthage at this point in time just by sheer luck this point in time just by sheer luck this point in time just by sheer luck coughs up one of the greatest military coughs up one of the greatest military coughs up one of the greatest military Geniuses in all of history uh this guy Geniuses in all of history uh this guy Geniuses in all of history uh this guy Hannibal Barka um he was actually the Hannibal Barka um he was actually the Hannibal Barka um he was actually the son of the carthaginian uh General who son of the carthaginian uh General who son of the carthaginian uh General who fought Rome for Sicily Hamil car was his fought Rome for Sicily Hamil car was his fought Rome for Sicily Hamil car was his father but Hannibal uh is this just father but Hannibal uh is this just father but Hannibal uh is this just genius just absolute military genius um genius just absolute military genius um genius just absolute military genius um he goes to Spain he's the one who kind he goes to Spain he's the one who kind he goes to Spain he's the one who kind of organizes stuff there and now he of organizes stuff there and now he of organizes stuff there and now he knows the second war with Rome is knows the second war with Rome is knows the second war with Rome is inevitable and so the question is how do inevitable and so the question is how do inevitable and so the question is how do you take down Rome he's smart he's seen you take down Rome he's smart he's seen you take down Rome he's smart he's seen Rome's strength he knows it's the Rome's strength he knows it's the Rome's strength he knows it's the Italian allies so Rome always wins Italian allies so Rome always wins Italian allies so Rome always wins because even if they lose battles they because even if they lose battles they because even if they lose battles they go to the Italian allies and half go to the Italian allies and half go to the Italian allies and half citizens and raise new armies so how do citizens and raise new armies so how do citizens and raise new armies so how do you beat them he can never raise that you beat them he can never raise that you beat them he can never raise that many troops himself and Hannibal many troops himself and Hannibal many troops himself and Hannibal I think correctly figures out the one I think correctly figures out the one I think correctly figures out the one way to maybe defeat Rome is to cut them

way to maybe defeat Rome is to cut them way to maybe defeat Rome is to cut them away from their allies well how do you away from their allies well how do you away from their allies well how do you do this Hannibal's plan is I'm not going do this Hannibal's plan is I'm not going do this Hannibal's plan is I'm not going to wait and fight the Romans in Spain or to wait and fight the Romans in Spain or to wait and fight the Romans in Spain or North Africa I'm going to invade Italy North Africa I'm going to invade Italy North Africa I'm going to invade Italy so I'm going to strike at the heart of so I'm going to strike at the heart of so I'm going to strike at the heart of this growing Roman Empire and my hope is this growing Roman Empire and my hope is this growing Roman Empire and my hope is that if I can win a couple big battles that if I can win a couple big battles that if I can win a couple big battles against Rome in Italy the Italians will against Rome in Italy the Italians will against Rome in Italy the Italians will want their freedom back and they'll want their freedom back and they'll want their freedom back and they'll Rebel from Rome and maybe even join me Rebel from Rome and maybe even join me Rebel from Rome and maybe even join me because most people who have been because most people who have been because most people who have been conquered want their freedom back so conquered want their freedom back so conquered want their freedom back so this is a reasonable plan so Hannibal this is a reasonable plan so Hannibal this is a reasonable plan so Hannibal famously crosses the Alps with elephants famously crosses the Alps with elephants famously crosses the Alps with elephants dramatic stuff nobody expects him to do dramatic stuff nobody expects him to do dramatic stuff nobody expects him to do this nobody thinks you can do this shows this nobody thinks you can do this shows this nobody thinks you can do this shows up in Northern Italy Romans send an Army up in Northern Italy Romans send an Army up in Northern Italy Romans send an Army Hannibal massacres them he is a military Hannibal massacres them he is a military Hannibal massacres them he is a military genius Rome takes a year raises a second genius Rome takes a year raises a second genius Rome takes a year raises a second Army we know this story sends against Army we know this story sends against Army we know this story sends against Hannibal Hannibal wipes him out Rome Hannibal Hannibal wipes him out Rome Hannibal Hannibal wipes him out Rome gets clever this time they say Okay gets clever this time they say Okay gets clever this time they say Okay Hannibal's different we're going to take Hannibal's different we're going to take Hannibal's different we're going to take two years raise two armies and send them two years raise two armies and send them two years raise two armies and send them both out at the same time against both out at the same time against both out at the same time against Hannibal so they do this and this is the Hannibal so they do this and this is the Hannibal so they do this and this is the Battle of kaay which is one of the most Battle of kaay which is one of the most Battle of kaay which is one of the most famous battles in history uh Hannibal is famous battles in history uh Hannibal is famous battles in history uh Hannibal is facing this Army of 880,000 Romans about facing this Army of 880,000 Romans about facing this Army of 880,000 Romans about um and he comes up with a strategy um and he comes up with a strategy um and he comes up with a strategy called double envelopment I mean we can called double envelopment I mean we can called double envelopment I mean we can go into it later if you want but this go into it later if you want but this go into it later if you want but this famous strategy where he basically kind famous strategy where he basically kind famous strategy where he basically kind of sucks the Romans in surrounds them on of sucks the Romans in surrounds them on of sucks the Romans in surrounds them on all sides and in one one afternoon at all sides and in one one afternoon at all sides and in one one afternoon at the Battle of K Hannibal kills about

the Battle of K Hannibal kills about the Battle of K Hannibal kills about 60,000 60,000 60,000 Romans now just to put that in Romans now just to put that in Romans now just to put that in perspective that's more Romans hacked to perspective that's more Romans hacked to perspective that's more Romans hacked to death in one afternoon with swords than death in one afternoon with swords than death in one afternoon with swords than Americans died in 20 years in Vietnam I Americans died in 20 years in Vietnam I Americans died in 20 years in Vietnam I mean you know the Battle of Gettysburg mean you know the Battle of Gettysburg mean you know the Battle of Gettysburg which lasted three days and was one of which lasted three days and was one of which lasted three days and was one of the bloodiest battles of Civil War I the bloodiest battles of Civil War I the bloodiest battles of Civil War I think the actual deaths at that were think the actual deaths at that were think the actual deaths at that were maybe like maybe like maybe like 15,000 so this is uh 15,000 so this is uh 15,000 so this is uh Bloodshed of an almost unimaginable Bloodshed of an almost unimaginable Bloodshed of an almost unimaginable scale it's also brutal yes it's just scale it's also brutal yes it's just scale it's also brutal yes it's just mindboggling to think of of that so now mindboggling to think of of that so now mindboggling to think of of that so now this this is Rome's Darkest Hour this is this this is Rome's Darkest Hour this is this this is Rome's Darkest Hour this is why the Second Punic War is important why the Second Punic War is important why the Second Punic War is important because there's that you know nche because there's that you know nche because there's that you know nche phrase what doesn't kill you makes you phrase what doesn't kill you makes you phrase what doesn't kill you makes you stronger this is the closest Rome comes stronger this is the closest Rome comes stronger this is the closest Rome comes to death in the history of the Republic to death in the history of the Republic to death in the history of the Republic Hannibal almost kills Rome um but no Hannibal almost kills Rome um but no Hannibal almost kills Rome um but no it's not much of a a spoiler Rome's it's not much of a a spoiler Rome's it's not much of a a spoiler Rome's going to survive and from this point on going to survive and from this point on going to survive and from this point on they're going to be unbeatable but this they're going to be unbeatable but this they're going to be unbeatable but this this is the crisis this is The Crucible this is the crisis this is The Crucible this is the crisis this is The Crucible this is the furnace that Rome passes this is the furnace that Rome passes this is the furnace that Rome passes through that is the dividing point through that is the dividing point through that is the dividing point between when they're one more upand between when they're one more upand between when they're one more upand cominging Empire and when they're cominging Empire and when they're cominging Empire and when they're clearly the dominant power in the clearly the dominant power in the clearly the dominant power in the Mediterranean so what do they do about Mediterranean so what do they do about Mediterranean so what do they do about Hannibal well they're smart we're not Hannibal well they're smart we're not Hannibal well they're smart we're not going to fight Hannibal we're not going going to fight Hannibal we're not going going to fight Hannibal we're not going to give Hannibal the chance to kill more to give Hannibal the chance to kill more to give Hannibal the chance to kill more Romans so they adopt a strategy that Romans so they adopt a strategy that Romans so they adopt a strategy that they'll follow Hannibal or they ra a they'll follow Hannibal or they ra a they'll follow Hannibal or they ra a couple more armies follow Hannibal couple more armies follow Hannibal couple more armies follow Hannibal around but whenever Hannibal turns and around but whenever Hannibal turns and around but whenever Hannibal turns and tries to attack them the Romans just tries to attack them the Romans just tries to attack them the Romans just back off no thank you we're not going to

back off no thank you we're not going to back off no thank you we're not going to let you give you a chance meanwhile let you give you a chance meanwhile let you give you a chance meanwhile though they're not scared of other though they're not scared of other though they're not scared of other carthaginians so they raise a couple carthaginians so they raise a couple carthaginians so they raise a couple more armies and they send these to Spain more armies and they send these to Spain more armies and they send these to Spain for example and start attacking the for example and start attacking the for example and start attacking the carthaginian Holdings there and by luck carthaginian Holdings there and by luck carthaginian Holdings there and by luck or necessity Rome comes up with its own or necessity Rome comes up with its own or necessity Rome comes up with its own brilliant Commander at this point a guy brilliant Commander at this point a guy brilliant Commander at this point a guy named skipio uh and he wins victories in named skipio uh and he wins victories in named skipio uh and he wins victories in Spain conquers Spain then he crosses Spain conquers Spain then he crosses Spain conquers Spain then he crosses into North Africa and starts to conquer into North Africa and starts to conquer into North Africa and starts to conquer that and ends up threatening Carthage that and ends up threatening Carthage that and ends up threatening Carthage directly and poor Hannibal undefeated in directly and poor Hannibal undefeated in directly and poor Hannibal undefeated in Italy has now been walking up and down Italy has now been walking up and down Italy has now been walking up and down Italy or marching up and down Italy for Italy or marching up and down Italy for Italy or marching up and down Italy for 12 years looking for another fight and 12 years looking for another fight and 12 years looking for another fight and the Romans won't give it to him they've the Romans won't give it to him they've the Romans won't give it to him they've been attacking all these other areas and been attacking all these other areas and been attacking all these other areas and chipping away at carthaginian power so chipping away at carthaginian power so chipping away at carthaginian power so finally after more than a decade in finally after more than a decade in finally after more than a decade in Italy Hannibal is called back to defend Italy Hannibal is called back to defend Italy Hannibal is called back to defend the home land defend Carthage from the home land defend Carthage from the home land defend Carthage from skipio the two meet in a big battle this skipio the two meet in a big battle this skipio the two meet in a big battle this should be one of the great battles of should be one of the great battles of should be one of the great battles of all time it's the Battle of Z but you all time it's the Battle of Z but you all time it's the Battle of Z but you know Hannibal's guys are kind of old by know Hannibal's guys are kind of old by know Hannibal's guys are kind of old by this point uh skipio has all the this point uh skipio has all the this point uh skipio has all the advantages he wins Carthage is defeated advantages he wins Carthage is defeated advantages he wins Carthage is defeated so that's pretty much the end of so that's pretty much the end of so that's pretty much the end of Carthage the city survives and then 50 Carthage the city survives and then 50 Carthage the city survives and then 50 years later the Romans wipe it out but years later the Romans wipe it out but years later the Romans wipe it out but that's not much of a war but From This that's not much of a war but From This that's not much of a war but From This Moment On from the Second Punic War Moment On from the Second Punic War Moment On from the Second Punic War which ends in 2011 BC uh Rome is which ends in 2011 BC uh Rome is which ends in 2011 BC uh Rome is undisputably the most powerful force undisputably the most powerful force undisputably the most powerful force nation in the Mediterranean world and nation in the Mediterranean world and nation in the Mediterranean world and having conquered the West they're now having conquered the West they're now having conquered the West they're now going to turn to the east which is the

going to turn to the east which is the going to turn to the east which is the Greek world and the Greek world is older Greek world and the Greek world is older Greek world and the Greek world is older it's richer it's the rich part half of it's richer it's the rich part half of it's richer it's the rich part half of the Mediterranean it's culturally more the Mediterranean it's culturally more the Mediterranean it's culturally more sophisticated uh it's the world left by sophisticated uh it's the world left by sophisticated uh it's the world left by Alexander the Great that's ruled by the Alexander the Great that's ruled by the Alexander the Great that's ruled by the descendants of his generals and the descendants of his generals and the descendants of his generals and the Greeks kind of view themselves as Greeks kind of view themselves as Greeks kind of view themselves as superior to the Romans I mean to the superior to the Romans I mean to the superior to the Romans I mean to the Greeks uh the Romans are the UNC sort of Greeks uh the Romans are the UNC sort of Greeks uh the Romans are the UNC sort of savage barbarians but they're going to savage barbarians but they're going to savage barbarians but they're going to get a real shock because the Roman army get a real shock because the Roman army get a real shock because the Roman army now has gotten really good to beat now has gotten really good to beat now has gotten really good to beat Hannibal and when they go east they're Hannibal and when they go east they're Hannibal and when they go east they're going to just defeat the Greeks going to just defeat the Greeks going to just defeat the Greeks relatively easily one after the other relatively easily one after the other relatively easily one after the other and um there's a famous um historian and um there's a famous um historian and um there's a famous um historian named pus who is a Greek whose city was named pus who is a Greek whose city was named pus who is a Greek whose city was captured by the Romans he later up captured by the Romans he later up captured by the Romans he later up becomes a friend to the skipio family he becomes a friend to the skipio family he becomes a friend to the skipio family he actually teaches some of the skipio actually teaches some of the skipio actually teaches some of the skipio children about Greek culture and he children about Greek culture and he children about Greek culture and he writes a history uh of Rome and his writes a history uh of Rome and his writes a history uh of Rome and his motivation for writing this is he says motivation for writing this is he says motivation for writing this is he says at the beginning of this book he says at the beginning of this book he says at the beginning of this book he says surely there can be no one so surely there can be no one so surely there can be no one so incurious as to not want to understand incurious as to not want to understand incurious as to not want to understand how the Romans could have conquered the how the Romans could have conquered the how the Romans could have conquered the entire Greek World in 53 years because entire Greek World in 53 years because entire Greek World in 53 years because that seems unimaginable to him so he's that seems unimaginable to him so he's that seems unimaginable to him so he's writing this entire history as a way to writing this entire history as a way to writing this entire history as a way to try and understand how did the Romans do try and understand how did the Romans do try and understand how did the Romans do it we were these wonderful Superior it we were these wonderful Superior it we were these wonderful Superior people and they came around in 50 years people and they came around in 50 years people and they came around in 50 years bang that's the end of us so that's his bang that's the end of us so that's his bang that's the end of us so that's his motivation could you maybe speak uh to motivation could you maybe speak uh to motivation could you maybe speak uh to any interesting details of the military any interesting details of the military any interesting details of the military Genius of Hannibal or skipio at that

Genius of Hannibal or skipio at that Genius of Hannibal or skipio at that time what are some interesting aspects time what are some interesting aspects time what are some interesting aspects this uh double envelopment idea I mean this uh double envelopment idea I mean this uh double envelopment idea I mean Hannibal is good because he understood Hannibal is good because he understood Hannibal is good because he understood how to use different troop types and to how to use different troop types and to how to use different troop types and to play to their strengths and how to use play to their strengths and how to use play to their strengths and how to use terrain so I mean this is basic military terrain so I mean this is basic military terrain so I mean this is basic military stuff but he did it really well so one stuff but he did it really well so one stuff but he did it really well so one of his victories against the Romans for of his victories against the Romans for of his victories against the Romans for example is when the Romans are marching example is when the Romans are marching example is when the Romans are marching along the edge of a lake and their army along the edge of a lake and their army along the edge of a lake and their army is strung out in marching formations is strung out in marching formations is strung out in marching formations they're not kind of in combat formation they're not kind of in combat formation they're not kind of in combat formation but they're strung out along the edge of but they're strung out along the edge of but they're strung out along the edge of this Lake it's Misty there's not good this Lake it's Misty there's not good this Lake it's Misty there's not good visibility and he ambushes them along visibility and he ambushes them along visibility and he ambushes them along this Lake Side so Lake TR um and it's this Lake Side so Lake TR um and it's this Lake Side so Lake TR um and it's just using the terrain understanding just using the terrain understanding just using the terrain understanding this again Hannibal is very much this again Hannibal is very much this again Hannibal is very much outnumbered but he's able to use the outnumbered but he's able to use the outnumbered but he's able to use the terrain and to take the Enemy by terrain and to take the Enemy by terrain and to take the Enemy by surprise um at K he's working against surprise um at K he's working against surprise um at K he's working against the expectations so the traditional the expectations so the traditional the expectations so the traditional thing You' do in the ancient world is thing You' do in the ancient world is thing You' do in the ancient world is the two armies would line up on opposite the two armies would line up on opposite the two armies would line up on opposite sides of a field you'd put your best sides of a field you'd put your best sides of a field you'd put your best troops in the middle you'd put your troops in the middle you'd put your troops in the middle you'd put your Cavalry on the sides you put your Cavalry on the sides you put your Cavalry on the sides you put your lightly armed skirmishers Beyond those lightly armed skirmishers Beyond those lightly armed skirmishers Beyond those and then the two sides kind of smack and then the two sides kind of smack and then the two sides kind of smack together and the good troops fight the together and the good troops fight the together and the good troops fight the good troops and you see who wins now good troops and you see who wins now good troops and you see who wins now Hannibal is hugely outnumbered by this Hannibal is hugely outnumbered by this Hannibal is hugely outnumbered by this giant failan of heavy infantry which is giant failan of heavy infantry which is giant failan of heavy infantry which is what the Romans specialized in they're what the Romans specialized in they're what the Romans specialized in they're very good at sort of heavily armed foot very good at sort of heavily armed foot very good at sort of heavily armed foot soldiers so he knows I don't want to go soldiers so he knows I don't want to go soldiers so he knows I don't want to go up against that I don't have that many up against that I don't have that many up against that I don't have that many of that troop type my guys aren't as of that troop type my guys aren't as of that troop type my guys aren't as good as the Romans anyway so he lines up good as the Romans anyway so he lines up good as the Romans anyway so he lines up some of his less good troops in the

some of his less good troops in the some of his less good troops in the center against the big menacing Roman center against the big menacing Roman center against the big menacing Roman fail lanks and he tells them okay when fail lanks and he tells them okay when fail lanks and he tells them okay when the Romans come you're not really trying the Romans come you're not really trying the Romans come you're not really trying to win just hold them up just delay them to win just hold them up just delay them to win just hold them up just delay them and even tells them you can give ground and even tells them you can give ground and even tells them you can give ground so you can Retreat and sort of let the so you can Retreat and sort of let the so you can Retreat and sort of let the line form a big kind of sea shaped line form a big kind of sea shaped line form a big kind of sea shaped crescence let the Romans sort of Advance crescence let the Romans sort of Advance crescence let the Romans sort of Advance into you would just hold that line and into you would just hold that line and into you would just hold that line and meanwhile he puts his Cavalry and his meanwhile he puts his Cavalry and his meanwhile he puts his Cavalry and his good troops on the side and so on the good troops on the side and so on the good troops on the side and so on the sides those good troops defeat the sides those good troops defeat the sides those good troops defeat the Romans and then they kind of circle in Romans and then they kind of circle in Romans and then they kind of circle in behind the Romans and attack that big behind the Romans and attack that big behind the Romans and attack that big menacing Roman failan from the rear menacing Roman failan from the rear menacing Roman failan from the rear where it's very vulnerable and so where it's very vulnerable and so where it's very vulnerable and so Hannibal catches the Romans in this sort Hannibal catches the Romans in this sort Hannibal catches the Romans in this sort of giant cauldron just with people of giant cauldron just with people of giant cauldron just with people closing in from both sides um and they closing in from both sides um and they closing in from both sides um and they get pressed together they can't fight get pressed together they can't fight get pressed together they can't fight properly they Panic uh and they're all properly they Panic uh and they're all properly they Panic uh and they're all slaughtered and that strategy of double slaughtered and that strategy of double slaughtered and that strategy of double envelopment of sort of going around both envelopment of sort of going around both envelopment of sort of going around both sides becomes uh the model for all kinds sides becomes uh the model for all kinds sides becomes uh the model for all kinds of military strategies throughout the of military strategies throughout the of military strategies throughout the rest of history I mean the Germans used rest of history I mean the Germans used rest of history I mean the Germans used this and their Blitz Craig in World War this and their Blitz Craig in World War this and their Blitz Craig in World War II A lot of it was kind of that you know II A lot of it was kind of that you know II A lot of it was kind of that you know go around the sides and envelop the go around the sides and envelop the go around the sides and envelop the enemy on the Eastern Front they had a enemy on the Eastern Front they had a enemy on the Eastern Front they had a bunch of these uh sort of cauldron bunch of these uh sort of cauldron bunch of these uh sort of cauldron battles where they would go around and battles where they would go around and battles where they would go around and try to encircle huge chunks of the the try to encircle huge chunks of the the try to encircle huge chunks of the the Soviet the Russian army and do the same Soviet the Russian army and do the same Soviet the Russian army and do the same thing uh supposedly even in the Gulf War thing uh supposedly even in the Gulf War thing uh supposedly even in the Gulf War it was part of the us strategy for the it was part of the us strategy for the it was part of the us strategy for the invasion of Iraq to do this kind of invasion of Iraq to do this kind of invasion of Iraq to do this kind of double envelopment maneuver so it's double envelopment maneuver so it's double envelopment maneuver so it's something that for the rest of military something that for the rest of military something that for the rest of military history has been an inspiration to other history has been an inspiration to other history has been an inspiration to other armies can you speak to the maybe the

armies can you speak to the maybe the armies can you speak to the maybe the difference between heavy infantry and difference between heavy infantry and difference between heavy infantry and Cavalry the the usefulness of it in the Cavalry the the usefulness of it in the Cavalry the the usefulness of it in the ancient world the ancient world sort of ancient world the ancient world sort of ancient world the ancient world sort of from the Greeks through the Romans from the Greeks through the Romans from the Greeks through the Romans there's this um consistent line of there's this um consistent line of there's this um consistent line of focusing on heavy infantry so going back focusing on heavy infantry so going back focusing on heavy infantry so going back to Greece when they're fighting let's to Greece when they're fighting let's to Greece when they're fighting let's say Persia which at the time was the say Persia which at the time was the say Persia which at the time was the superpower of the ancient world and superpower of the ancient world and superpower of the ancient world and vastly richer vastly larger than ancient vastly richer vastly larger than ancient vastly richer vastly larger than ancient Greece you know tons more men but the Greece you know tons more men but the Greece you know tons more men but the Persians tended to be archers tended to Persians tended to be archers tended to Persians tended to be archers tended to be light Horsemen tended to be light be light Horsemen tended to be light be light Horsemen tended to be light infantry whereas the Greeks specialized infantry whereas the Greeks specialized infantry whereas the Greeks specialized in what are called hotlights which is a in what are called hotlights which is a in what are called hotlights which is a kind of infantry men with very heavy kind of infantry men with very heavy kind of infantry men with very heavy body armor uh a helmet a spear and a body armor uh a helmet a spear and a body armor uh a helmet a spear and a really big heavy shield and they would really big heavy shield and they would really big heavy shield and they would get in that formation where you kind of get in that formation where you kind of get in that formation where you kind of make the shields overlap and just form make the shields overlap and just form make the shields overlap and just form this solid Mass bristling with spear this solid Mass bristling with spear this solid Mass bristling with spear points and just slowly kind of March points and just slowly kind of March points and just slowly kind of March forward and grind up your enemy in front forward and grind up your enemy in front forward and grind up your enemy in front of you and so that's that sort of block of you and so that's that sort of block of you and so that's that sort of block of heavy infantry the advantage is head of heavy infantry the advantage is head of heavy infantry the advantage is head on against other things they tend to win on against other things they tend to win on against other things they tend to win the disadvantage is it's slow moving um the disadvantage is it's slow moving um the disadvantage is it's slow moving um it's vulnerable from the sides and the it's vulnerable from the sides and the it's vulnerable from the sides and the rear so you got to protect those um but rear so you got to protect those um but rear so you got to protect those um but if you can keep frontally faced it it's if you can keep frontally faced it it's if you can keep frontally faced it it's pretty much invincible and that's taken pretty much invincible and that's taken pretty much invincible and that's taken even further by Alexander the Great who even further by Alexander the Great who even further by Alexander the Great who comes up with the idea well what if we comes up with the idea well what if we comes up with the idea well what if we even give them a longer spear so Greek even give them a longer spear so Greek even give them a longer spear so Greek Spears were 68 feet long uh Alexander Spears were 68 feet long uh Alexander Spears were 68 feet long uh Alexander the Great arms his armies with the Sissa the Great arms his armies with the Sissa the Great arms his armies with the Sissa which is this 15 foot almost a pike this

which is this 15 foot almost a pike this which is this 15 foot almost a pike this extra long Spear and so when the spear extra long Spear and so when the spear extra long Spear and so when the spear is that long you don't even hardly need is that long you don't even hardly need is that long you don't even hardly need the shields anymore so it's just this the shields anymore so it's just this the shields anymore so it's just this incredibly powerful thing in frontal incredibly powerful thing in frontal incredibly powerful thing in frontal attack and that's what he uses to make attack and that's what he uses to make attack and that's what he uses to make himself ruler of the known world he goes himself ruler of the known world he goes himself ruler of the known world he goes and conquers the Persian Empire makes and conquers the Persian Empire makes and conquers the Persian Empire makes himself the Persian king of kings with himself the Persian king of kings with himself the Persian king of kings with this uh failan of troops armed with the this uh failan of troops armed with the this uh failan of troops armed with the Sissa so that's very powerful the Romans Sissa so that's very powerful the Romans Sissa so that's very powerful the Romans go a little bit different route they go a little bit different route they go a little bit different route they have heavy infantry but they focus more have heavy infantry but they focus more have heavy infantry but they focus more on fighting with short swords so it's on fighting with short swords so it's on fighting with short swords so it's get up close and kind of stab and the get up close and kind of stab and the get up close and kind of stab and the other thing the Romans do is they focus other thing the Romans do is they focus other thing the Romans do is they focus on um flexibility and subdividing their on um flexibility and subdividing their on um flexibility and subdividing their army so Alexander's faank was a mass of army so Alexander's faank was a mass of army so Alexander's faank was a mass of let's say 5,000 guys and it was one unit let's say 5,000 guys and it was one unit let's say 5,000 guys and it was one unit the Roman army is organized in an Ever the Roman army is organized in an Ever the Roman army is organized in an Ever decreasing number of subunits so you decreasing number of subunits so you decreasing number of subunits so you have a group of eight guys who are a con have a group of eight guys who are a con have a group of eight guys who are a con tuberia the men who share a tent you tuberia the men who share a tent you tuberia the men who share a tent you take 10 of those and they form a century take 10 of those and they form a century take 10 of those and they form a century of 80 men you take a bunch of those and of 80 men you take a bunch of those and of 80 men you take a bunch of those and you form a cohort you get a bunch of you form a cohort you get a bunch of you form a cohort you get a bunch of those you form a legion so the Romans those you form a legion so the Romans those you form a legion so the Romans are able to subdivide their army and the are able to subdivide their army and the are able to subdivide their army and the big sticking point comes at 197 BC at big sticking point comes at 197 BC at big sticking point comes at 197 BC at the Battle of kinos when the Roman the Battle of kinos when the Roman the Battle of kinos when the Roman legion goes up against um one of the legion goes up against um one of the legion goes up against um one of the descendants of Alexander the Great who's descendants of Alexander the Great who's descendants of Alexander the Great who's using his military system so this is the using his military system so this is the using his military system so this is the new Roman system with flexibility versus new Roman system with flexibility versus new Roman system with flexibility versus the old Invincible Alexander system with the old Invincible Alexander system with the old Invincible Alexander system with the heavily armed Sissa with those long the heavily armed Sissa with those long the heavily armed Sissa with those long 15ft poles and the key moment in the

15ft poles and the key moment in the 15ft poles and the key moment in the battle is where they lock together and battle is where they lock together and battle is where they lock together and in a head-on Clash the the macedonians in a head-on Clash the the macedonians in a head-on Clash the the macedonians are going to win but the Romans have the are going to win but the Romans have the are going to win but the Romans have the flexibility to break off a little flexibility to break off a little flexibility to break off a little section of their army run around to the section of their army run around to the section of their army run around to the side and attack that formation from the side and attack that formation from the side and attack that formation from the side and they win the battle so they side and they win the battle so they side and they win the battle so they prove tactically Superior because of prove tactically Superior because of prove tactically Superior because of their flexibility so it's always their flexibility so it's always their flexibility so it's always development and counterd development in development and counterd development in development and counterd development in in military history a fascinating brutal in military history a fascinating brutal in military history a fascinating brutal testing ground of tactics and Technology testing ground of tactics and Technology testing ground of tactics and Technology adaptation you have to keep adapting adaptation you have to keep adapting adaptation you have to keep adapting that's I think the key thing one of the that's I think the key thing one of the that's I think the key thing one of the fascinating things about your work uh fascinating things about your work uh fascinating things about your work uh you you you you you you study Roman life life in the ancient study Roman life life in the ancient study Roman life life in the ancient world but also the details like we world but also the details like we world but also the details like we mentioned you are an expert in mentioned you are an expert in mentioned you are an expert in armor so what kind of uh maybe you can armor so what kind of uh maybe you can armor so what kind of uh maybe you can speak to weapons and most importantly speak to weapons and most importantly speak to weapons and most importantly armor that were used by the Romans or by armor that were used by the Romans or by armor that were used by the Romans or by people in the ancient world I do people in the ancient world I do people in the ancient world I do military history so I mean the Romans military history so I mean the Romans military history so I mean the Romans specialized in I mean early on they they specialized in I mean early on they they specialized in I mean early on they they have pretty random armor and it's not have pretty random armor and it's not have pretty random armor and it's not standardized I mean remember there's no standardized I mean remember there's no standardized I mean remember there's no factories in the ancient world so factories in the ancient world so factories in the ancient world so nobody's cranking out 10,000 units of nobody's cranking out 10,000 units of nobody's cranking out 10,000 units of exactly the same armor each one is exactly the same armor each one is exactly the same armor each one is handmade now there could be a degree of handmade now there could be a degree of handmade now there could be a degree of standardization even as early as standardization even as early as standardization even as early as Alexander there was a certain amount of Alexander there was a certain amount of Alexander there was a certain amount of standardization but each one is still standardization but each one is still standardization but each one is still handmade and that's important to keep in handmade and that's important to keep in handmade and that's important to keep in mind each weapon each piece of armor um mind each weapon each piece of armor um mind each weapon each piece of armor um armor develops over time to fit the armor develops over time to fit the armor develops over time to fit the tactics so the Greek hopl lights are tactics so the Greek hopl lights are tactics so the Greek hopl lights are very heavy armor the Roman infantrymen

very heavy armor the Roman infantrymen very heavy armor the Roman infantrymen early in the Republic is lighter early in the Republic is lighter early in the Republic is lighter eventually they get this typical sort of eventually they get this typical sort of eventually they get this typical sort of you know chain mail shirt helmet Shield you know chain mail shirt helmet Shield you know chain mail shirt helmet Shield uh the classic sort of Roman legionary I uh the classic sort of Roman legionary I uh the classic sort of Roman legionary I would say is the one of the first and would say is the one of the first and would say is the one of the first and second centuries ad so the early Roman second centuries ad so the early Roman second centuries ad so the early Roman Empire and this is the guy who wore um Empire and this is the guy who wore um Empire and this is the guy who wore um bands of Steel arranged in in sort of bands of Steel arranged in in sort of bands of Steel arranged in in sort of bands around their body so it looks bands around their body so it looks bands around their body so it looks almost like a lobster shell right and almost like a lobster shell right and almost like a lobster shell right and this is a thing called the Lura this is a thing called the Lura this is a thing called the Lura segmentata so it's it's solid steel segmentata so it's it's solid steel segmentata so it's it's solid steel which is very good protection but it's which is very good protection but it's which is very good protection but it's flexible because it has these individual flexible because it has these individual flexible because it has these individual bands that provide a lot of movement and bands that provide a lot of movement and bands that provide a lot of movement and then you have a helmet you have a square then you have a helmet you have a square then you have a helmet you have a square Shield that's kind of curved and you Shield that's kind of curved and you Shield that's kind of curved and you have the short sword the Roman Gladius have the short sword the Roman Gladius have the short sword the Roman Gladius and that's kind of the classic Roman and that's kind of the classic Roman and that's kind of the classic Roman legionary um later more things develop legionary um later more things develop legionary um later more things develop um my personal uh sort of relationship um my personal uh sort of relationship um my personal uh sort of relationship with armor is I got really by accident with armor is I got really by accident with armor is I got really by accident involved in this project to try to involved in this project to try to involved in this project to try to reconstruct this mysterious type of reconstruct this mysterious type of reconstruct this mysterious type of armor that was used especially by the armor that was used especially by the armor that was used especially by the Greeks and Alexander the Great called Greeks and Alexander the Great called Greeks and Alexander the Great called the L of thorax which apparently was the L of thorax which apparently was the L of thorax which apparently was made only out of linen and glue so this made only out of linen and glue so this made only out of linen and glue so this seems a little odd that you know that's seems a little odd that you know that's seems a little odd that you know that's not the sort of material once you want not the sort of material once you want not the sort of material once you want metal or something um but we had clear metal or something um but we had clear metal or something um but we had clear literary references that people literary references that people literary references that people including Alexander and the most famous including Alexander and the most famous including Alexander and the most famous image of Alexander is this Alexander image of Alexander is this Alexander image of Alexander is this Alexander Mosaic uh found at Pompei that shows him Mosaic uh found at Pompei that shows him Mosaic uh found at Pompei that shows him wearing one of these uh funny types of wearing one of these uh funny types of wearing one of these uh funny types of armor the catch is none survived it's armor the catch is none survived it's armor the catch is none survived it's organic materials MH so we don't have

organic materials MH so we don't have organic materials MH so we don't have any of them and archaeologists like to any of them and archaeologists like to any of them and archaeologists like to study things that survive so we have study things that survive so we have study things that survive so we have nice typologies of Greek armor made of nice typologies of Greek armor made of nice typologies of Greek armor made of bronze roman armor made of steel or sort bronze roman armor made of steel or sort bronze roman armor made of steel or sort of Proto steel but this thing this line of Proto steel but this thing this line of Proto steel but this thing this line of thorax was a mystery and one of my uh of thorax was a mystery and one of my uh of thorax was a mystery and one of my uh undergraduate students a guy named Scott undergraduate students a guy named Scott undergraduate students a guy named Scott Bartell had a real um well an Alexander Bartell had a real um well an Alexander Bartell had a real um well an Alexander Obsession he really loved Alex as one Obsession he really loved Alex as one Obsession he really loved Alex as one should he had alexandros tattooed on his should he had alexandros tattooed on his should he had alexandros tattooed on his arm in Greek and he he was a smart arm in Greek and he he was a smart arm in Greek and he he was a smart student he was really smart um and so he student he was really smart um and so he student he was really smart um and so he W summer made himself an imitation of W summer made himself an imitation of W summer made himself an imitation of this thing of Alexander just for fun and this thing of Alexander just for fun and this thing of Alexander just for fun and he said you know can you give me some he said you know can you give me some he said you know can you give me some articles so I could do a better job so I articles so I could do a better job so I articles so I could do a better job so I some scolly articles about this armor some scolly articles about this armor some scolly articles about this armor and with typical sort of you know and with typical sort of you know and with typical sort of you know academic arrogance I said why Scott of academic arrogance I said why Scott of academic arrogance I said why Scott of of course I will I'll give you some of course I will I'll give you some of course I will I'll give you some references I went and looked and there references I went and looked and there references I went and looked and there weren't any so at that point I was like weren't any so at that point I was like weren't any so at that point I was like huh tell you what why don't you and I huh tell you what why don't you and I huh tell you what why don't you and I look into this and try to do a look into this and try to do a look into this and try to do a reconstruction using only the materials reconstruction using only the materials reconstruction using only the materials they would have had in the ancient world they would have had in the ancient world they would have had in the ancient world and little did I know at the time I and little did I know at the time I and little did I know at the time I thought maybe I'll get an article out of thought maybe I'll get an article out of thought maybe I'll get an article out of this I mean it ended up being a 10-year this I mean it ended up being a 10-year this I mean it ended up being a 10-year project involving you know 150 students project involving you know 150 students project involving you know 150 students a couple dozen other faculty members um a couple dozen other faculty members um a couple dozen other faculty members um you know end having three document made you know end having three document made you know end having three document made out of it and Scott and I ended up out of it and Scott and I ended up out of it and Scott and I ended up writing a scholarly book on this so this writing a scholarly book on this so this writing a scholarly book on this so this is how you know you never know where is how you know you never know where is how you know you never know where your next Project's going to come from your next Project's going to come from your next Project's going to come from so it started with this undergraduate so it started with this undergraduate so it started with this undergraduate turned into this huge thing but it's turned into this huge thing but it's turned into this huge thing but it's what we did we first said all right what what we did we first said all right what what we did we first said all right what are all the sources for this armor and

are all the sources for this armor and are all the sources for this armor and in the end we found um 65 accounts of it in the end we found um 65 accounts of it in the end we found um 65 accounts of it in ancient literature by 40 different in ancient literature by 40 different in ancient literature by 40 different authors so we have literary descriptions authors so we have literary descriptions authors so we have literary descriptions and then we looked at Ancient Art and we and then we looked at Ancient Art and we and then we looked at Ancient Art and we were able to identify about a thousand were able to identify about a thousand were able to identify about a thousand images in anent art in vase paintings uh images in anent art in vase paintings uh images in anent art in vase paintings uh Pottery bronze sculpture tomb paintings Pottery bronze sculpture tomb paintings Pottery bronze sculpture tomb paintings all these different things showing this all these different things showing this all these different things showing this armor and then using those two things we armor and then using those two things we armor and then using those two things we tried to backwards engineer a pattern to tried to backwards engineer a pattern to tried to backwards engineer a pattern to say well if this is what the end product say well if this is what the end product say well if this is what the end product looked like what does it have to look looked like what does it have to look looked like what does it have to look like when you make it and then we tried like when you make it and then we tried like when you make it and then we tried to reconstruct one of these things using to reconstruct one of these things using to reconstruct one of these things using only the glue and materials so we had to only the glue and materials so we had to only the glue and materials so we had to use you know animal glues rabbit glue we use you know animal glues rabbit glue we use you know animal glues rabbit glue we had to end up uh sort of making our own had to end up uh sort of making our own had to end up uh sort of making our own linen which comes from the flax plant so linen which comes from the flax plant so linen which comes from the flax plant so we had to grow flax Harvest it using we had to grow flax Harvest it using we had to grow flax Harvest it using only techniques in the ancient world so only techniques in the ancient world so only techniques in the ancient world so modern flax goes through chemical modern flax goes through chemical modern flax goes through chemical processes no we had to do this the old processes no we had to do this the old processes no we had to do this the old fashioned way spin it into thread so the fashioned way spin it into thread so the fashioned way spin it into thread so the thread into fabric glue it all together thread into fabric glue it all together thread into fabric glue it all together and then the fun part was once we made and then the fun part was once we made and then the fun part was once we made these things we subjected them to these things we subjected them to these things we subjected them to ballistics testing so we shot them with ballistics testing so we shot them with ballistics testing so we shot them with arrows which again were wooden arrows which again were wooden arrows which again were wooden reconstruction arrows using bronze arrow reconstruction arrows using bronze arrow reconstruction arrows using bronze arrow heads that were based on Arro heads heads that were based on Arro heads heads that were based on Arro heads found on Ancient battlefields uh to found on Ancient battlefields uh to found on Ancient battlefields uh to determine how good protection would this determine how good protection would this determine how good protection would this thing have been and of course the the thing have been and of course the the thing have been and of course the the kind of fun one that everyone always kind of fun one that everyone always kind of fun one that everyone always likes and that the documentaries always likes and that the documentaries always likes and that the documentaries always want is at one point they're like well want is at one point they're like well want is at one point they're like well can you put Scott in one of these and can you put Scott in one of these and can you put Scott in one of these and shoot him yeah and we're like okay I shoot him yeah and we're like okay I shoot him yeah and we're like okay I mean at that point we done about mean at that point we done about mean at that point we done about thousand test shots I grew up shooting

thousand test shots I grew up shooting thousand test shots I grew up shooting bows and arrows I knew exactly how far bows and arrows I knew exactly how far bows and arrows I knew exactly how far that was going to go so it's one of that was going to go so it's one of that was going to go so it's one of these don't do this at home kids so these don't do this at home kids so these don't do this at home kids so there's a million questions to ask here there's a million questions to ask here there's a million questions to ask here but you know in general how well in but you know in general how well in but you know in general how well in terms of ballistics does it work like terms of ballistics does it work like terms of ballistics does it work like can it withstand arrows or direct can it withstand arrows or direct can it withstand arrows or direct strikes from like swords and axes and strikes from like swords and axes and strikes from like swords and axes and stuff like that bottom line is a 1 cm stuff like that bottom line is a 1 cm stuff like that bottom line is a 1 cm thick line of thorax so laminated or thick line of thorax so laminated or thick line of thorax so laminated or even sewn it doesn't have to be even sewn it doesn't have to be even sewn it doesn't have to be laminated uh layer of of linen is about laminated uh layer of of linen is about laminated uh layer of of linen is about as good protection as 2 mm of bronze as good protection as 2 mm of bronze as good protection as 2 mm of bronze which was the thickest comparable body which was the thickest comparable body which was the thickest comparable body armor of bronze at the time and we're armor of bronze at the time and we're armor of bronze at the time and we're talking uh 4th Century fifth century BC talking uh 4th Century fifth century BC talking uh 4th Century fifth century BC here um so classical and helenistic here um so classical and helenistic here um so classical and helenistic Greece Greece Greece and that would have protected you from and that would have protected you from and that would have protected you from let's say random Arrow strikes on the let's say random Arrow strikes on the let's say random Arrow strikes on the battlefield so uh you could have gotten battlefield so uh you could have gotten battlefield so uh you could have gotten hit by arrows and they simply wouldn't hit by arrows and they simply wouldn't hit by arrows and they simply wouldn't have gone through what are the benefits have gone through what are the benefits have gone through what are the benefits so is there a major weight difference so is there a major weight difference so is there a major weight difference yes so the benefits of this are it's yes so the benefits of this are it's yes so the benefits of this are it's much lighter than metal armor so the much lighter than metal armor so the much lighter than metal armor so the line of thorax is about 11 lb um a line of thorax is about 11 lb um a line of thorax is about 11 lb um a bronze queer ass of comparable um bronze queer ass of comparable um bronze queer ass of comparable um protection would have been about 24 to 6 protection would have been about 24 to 6 protection would have been about 24 to 6 lb a chain mail shirt would be about 28 lb a chain mail shirt would be about 28 lb a chain mail shirt would be about 28 27 pounds um it's cooler I mean you know 27 pounds um it's cooler I mean you know 27 pounds um it's cooler I mean you know the mediterranean's a hot place with the the mediterranean's a hot place with the the mediterranean's a hot place with the hot sun uh even today you know a linen hot sun uh even today you know a linen hot sun uh even today you know a linen shirt is something you wear when you shirt is something you wear when you shirt is something you wear when you want to be cool so it's it's much want to be cool so it's it's much want to be cool so it's it's much lighter that gives your troops greater lighter that gives your troops greater lighter that gives your troops greater Endurance on the battlefield they can Endurance on the battlefield they can Endurance on the battlefield they can run farther fight longer um it's cheaper

run farther fight longer um it's cheaper run farther fight longer um it's cheaper you don't need a blacksmith who's a you don't need a blacksmith who's a you don't need a blacksmith who's a specialist to make it in fact probably specialist to make it in fact probably specialist to make it in fact probably this interesting any woman in the this interesting any woman in the this interesting any woman in the ancient world could have made one of ancient world could have made one of ancient world could have made one of these because they were the ones who these because they were the ones who these because they were the ones who spun thread uh and sewed it into fabric spun thread uh and sewed it into fabric spun thread uh and sewed it into fabric so I can easily see uh in a household a so I can easily see uh in a household a so I can easily see uh in a household a mother making this for her son a wife mother making this for her son a wife mother making this for her son a wife making it for her husband so it's a form making it for her husband so it's a form making it for her husband so it's a form of armor you could have made uh of armor you could have made uh of armor you could have made uh domestically um that would have been you domestically um that would have been you domestically um that would have been you know maybe not the greatest armor but know maybe not the greatest armor but know maybe not the greatest armor but pretty good pretty comparable to to pretty good pretty comparable to to pretty good pretty comparable to to bronze armor and it's amazing that you bronze armor and it's amazing that you bronze armor and it's amazing that you used all the materials it had at the used all the materials it had at the used all the materials it had at the time and none of the modern techniques time and none of the modern techniques time and none of the modern techniques but I should probably say maybe you can but I should probably say maybe you can but I should probably say maybe you can speak to that they were probably much speak to that they were probably much speak to that they were probably much better at doing that than you are right better at doing that than you are right better at doing that than you are right because like you know again generational because like you know again generational because like you know again generational it's a skill it's a skill that probably it's a skill it's a skill that probably it's a skill it's a skill that probably is practiced across decades across is practiced across decades across is practiced across decades across centuries I mean in terms of producing centuries I mean in terms of producing centuries I mean in terms of producing the fabric I'm sure they could do it 10 the fabric I'm sure they could do it 10 the fabric I'm sure they could do it 10 times faster than we could just that's a times faster than we could just that's a times faster than we could just that's a speed thing but it's still incredibly speed thing but it's still incredibly speed thing but it's still incredibly labor intensive where I think there's a labor intensive where I think there's a labor intensive where I think there's a big difference between our big difference between our big difference between our reconstruction and ancient ones is in reconstruction and ancient ones is in reconstruction and ancient ones is in the glue so we ended up using a kind of the glue so we ended up using a kind of the glue so we ended up using a kind of least common denominator glue we used least common denominator glue we used least common denominator glue we used rabbit glue because it would have been rabbit glue because it would have been rabbit glue because it would have been available anywhere and it's cheap um but available anywhere and it's cheap um but available anywhere and it's cheap um but in the ancient world they did have in the ancient world they did have in the ancient world they did have basically the equivalent of superglues I basically the equivalent of superglues I basically the equivalent of superglues I mean we found for example uh helmets mean we found for example uh helmets mean we found for example uh helmets that were fish out of a river in Germany that were fish out of a river in Germany that were fish out of a river in Germany that were uh had metal Parts glued that were uh had metal Parts glued that were uh had metal Parts glued together that after 2,000 years of together that after 2,000 years of together that after 2,000 years of immersion in water were still glued immersion in water were still glued immersion in water were still glued together so they had some great glues we together so they had some great glues we together so they had some great glues we just don't know what the recipes for

just don't know what the recipes for just don't know what the recipes for them were so we went the opposite attack them were so we went the opposite attack them were so we went the opposite attack and said well we're just going to make and said well we're just going to make and said well we're just going to make something that we know they could have something that we know they could have something that we know they could have made so it was at least this good you made so it was at least this good you made so it was at least this good you know what I'm saying but uh actually know what I'm saying but uh actually know what I'm saying but uh actually this is a materials thing but I think this is a materials thing but I think this is a materials thing but I think glue glue glue uh aside from helping glue things uh aside from helping glue things uh aside from helping glue things together uh it can also be a thing that together uh it can also be a thing that together uh it can also be a thing that serves as armor so like if you glue serves as armor so like if you glue serves as armor so like if you glue things correctly the way it permeates things correctly the way it permeates things correctly the way it permeates the material that it's gluing can the material that it's gluing can the material that it's gluing can strengthen the material the Integrity of strengthen the material the Integrity of strengthen the material the Integrity of the material that's an art and the the material that's an art and the the material that's an art and the science probably that they understood science probably that they understood science probably that they understood deeply the process of lamination did add deeply the process of lamination did add deeply the process of lamination did add something so there's actually a huge something so there's actually a huge something so there's actually a huge debate among Scholars and actually a debate among Scholars and actually a debate among Scholars and actually a sort of amateur archaeologist that was sort of amateur archaeologist that was sort of amateur archaeologist that was this line ofor thing glued together or this line ofor thing glued together or this line ofor thing glued together or was it simply sewn together was it was it simply sewn together was it was it simply sewn together was it composite partially linen partially composite partially linen partially composite partially linen partially leather or other materials and my honest leather or other materials and my honest leather or other materials and my honest answer is I think it's all of the above answer is I think it's all of the above answer is I think it's all of the above because again every piece of armor in because again every piece of armor in because again every piece of armor in the ancient world was an individual the ancient world was an individual the ancient world was an individual creation so I think if you had some creation so I think if you had some creation so I think if you had some spare leather you put that in if you spare leather you put that in if you spare leather you put that in if you wanted to make one that was just sewn wanted to make one that was just sewn wanted to make one that was just sewn together or even quilted stuffed with together or even quilted stuffed with together or even quilted stuffed with stuff you do that maybe you were good at stuff you do that maybe you were good at stuff you do that maybe you were good at gluing stuff you use that so I think gluing stuff you use that so I think gluing stuff you use that so I think there's no one answer we investigated there's no one answer we investigated there's no one answer we investigated one possibility because we just had one possibility because we just had one possibility because we just had limited time and money and resources but limited time and money and resources but limited time and money and resources but I think all these other things existed I think all these other things existed I think all these other things existed at the same time and were variants of it at the same time and were variants of it at the same time and were variants of it just as a smallest side I just think just as a smallest side I just think just as a smallest side I just think this is a fascinating Journey you went this is a fascinating Journey you went this is a fascinating Journey you went on I love it that uh sort of answering on I love it that uh sort of answering on I love it that uh sort of answering really important questions about in this

really important questions about in this really important questions about in this case um armor about military equipment case um armor about military equipment case um armor about military equipment and technology that archaeologists can't and technology that archaeologists can't and technology that archaeologists can't answer mhm by using all the literate so answer mhm by using all the literate so answer mhm by using all the literate so all the sources you can understand what all the sources you can understand what all the sources you can understand what it looked like what were the materials it looked like what were the materials it looked like what were the materials using the materials at the time and using the materials at the time and using the materials at the time and actually doing ballistic testing it's actually doing ballistic testing it's actually doing ballistic testing it's really cool it's it's really cool that really cool it's it's really cool that really cool it's it's really cool that it's you see that there's a hole in the it's you see that there's a hole in the it's you see that there's a hole in the literature nobody studied it and going literature nobody studied it and going literature nobody studied it and going going hard and doing it the right way to going hard and doing it the right way to going hard and doing it the right way to sort of uncover sort of uncover sort of uncover this I I don't know I think it's an this I I don't know I think it's an this I I don't know I think it's an amazing mystery about the ancient world amazing mystery about the ancient world amazing mystery about the ancient world I mean shifting from just sort of I mean shifting from just sort of I mean shifting from just sort of roboman history in general to my roboman history in general to my roboman history in general to my research that I've done as a scholar the research that I've done as a scholar the research that I've done as a scholar the theme that runs throughout my theme that runs throughout my theme that runs throughout my scholarship is is practic I stuff I'm scholarship is is practic I stuff I'm scholarship is is practic I stuff I'm interested how did this actually work in interested how did this actually work in interested how did this actually work in the ancient world so there's people who the ancient world so there's people who the ancient world so there's people who are much more theoretical who look at are much more theoretical who look at are much more theoretical who look at you know the symbolic meaning of you know the symbolic meaning of you know the symbolic meaning of something I I'm simpler I just want to something I I'm simpler I just want to something I I'm simpler I just want to know how did this work so almost all of know how did this work so almost all of know how did this work so almost all of my books that I've written have started my books that I've written have started my books that I've written have started with some just how did something work with some just how did something work with some just how did something work and I'm trying to just figure out that and I'm trying to just figure out that and I'm trying to just figure out that aspect of it and that's just maybe it's aspect of it and that's just maybe it's aspect of it and that's just maybe it's a personality thing um I also have kind a personality thing um I also have kind a personality thing um I also have kind of a sciency background so I think I've of a sciency background so I think I've of a sciency background so I think I've used a lot of that even though I'm a used a lot of that even though I'm a used a lot of that even though I'm a humanist and a historian I I use a lot humanist and a historian I I use a lot humanist and a historian I I use a lot of kind of hard science in in my work um of kind of hard science in in my work um of kind of hard science in in my work um I did a book on floods where I had to I did a book on floods where I had to I did a book on floods where I had to get really heavy into you know vectors get really heavy into you know vectors get really heavy into you know vectors of disease and you know Hydraulics and of disease and you know Hydraulics and of disease and you know Hydraulics and engineering and all that stuff and I engineering and all that stuff and I engineering and all that stuff and I think again having that sort of hard think again having that sort of hard think again having that sort of hard science combined with a humanist science combined with a humanist science combined with a humanist background helps with those sorts of background helps with those sorts of background helps with those sorts of projects well like you said I think the projects well like you said I think the projects well like you said I think the details help you understand deeply the

details help you understand deeply the details help you understand deeply the big picture of history and I mean big picture of history and I mean big picture of history and I mean Alexander the Great wore this thing so Alexander the Great wore this thing so Alexander the Great wore this thing so this is and I should say by the way um this is and I should say by the way um this is and I should say by the way um it does drop out of use around Roman it does drop out of use around Roman it does drop out of use around Roman times um and I think what's going on times um and I think what's going on times um and I think what's going on there is technology that uh with bronze there is technology that uh with bronze there is technology that uh with bronze it's hard to keep a sharp edge on things it's hard to keep a sharp edge on things it's hard to keep a sharp edge on things but once you get into Metals which but once you get into Metals which but once you get into Metals which approximate steel you can get sharper approximate steel you can get sharper approximate steel you can get sharper and a key factor to penetrating fabric and a key factor to penetrating fabric and a key factor to penetrating fabric is The Edge on the arrowead right so as is The Edge on the arrowead right so as is The Edge on the arrowead right so as soon as you start to get something more soon as you start to get something more soon as you start to get something more like a razor edge it's going to go like a razor edge it's going to go like a razor edge it's going to go through it more easily also there's through it more easily also there's through it more easily also there's changes in the bows that are being used changes in the bows that are being used changes in the bows that are being used you start to get sort of uh Eastern you start to get sort of uh Eastern you start to get sort of uh Eastern horse archers showing up with composite horse archers showing up with composite horse archers showing up with composite bows which are much more powerful and so bows which are much more powerful and so bows which are much more powerful and so it just becomes outdated as Frontline it just becomes outdated as Frontline it just becomes outdated as Frontline military equipment what's interesting is military equipment what's interesting is military equipment what's interesting is by the Roman period people are still by the Roman period people are still by the Roman period people are still wearing it but it's now things like when wearing it but it's now things like when wearing it but it's now things like when I go hunting if I'm hunting Lions I wear I go hunting if I'm hunting Lions I wear I go hunting if I'm hunting Lions I wear this there's an actual source that says this there's an actual source that says this there's an actual source that says it's really good for hunting dangerous it's really good for hunting dangerous it's really good for hunting dangerous big cats because it catches their teeth big cats because it catches their teeth big cats because it catches their teeth and stops them from penetrating um one and stops them from penetrating um one and stops them from penetrating um one Emperor wears one of these under his Emperor wears one of these under his Emperor wears one of these under his toas kind of like a a not bulletproof toas kind of like a a not bulletproof toas kind of like a a not bulletproof vest but stab proof vest so again it's vest but stab proof vest so again it's vest but stab proof vest so again it's not to fight in the front line of the not to fight in the front line of the not to fight in the front line of the legions but it'll protect him from legions but it'll protect him from legions but it'll protect him from somebody trying to assassinate him so it somebody trying to assassinate him so it somebody trying to assassinate him so it still has those uses where you're not up still has those uses where you're not up still has those uses where you're not up against Topline military equipment to against Topline military equipment to against Topline military equipment to honor the uh aforementioned honor the uh aforementioned honor the uh aforementioned undergraduate student who loves undergraduate student who loves undergraduate student who loves Alexander the Great we must absolutely Alexander the Great we must absolutely Alexander the Great we must absolutely talk about Alexander the Great for a talk about Alexander the Great for a talk about Alexander the Great for a little bit uh why was he successful do little bit uh why was he successful do little bit uh why was he successful do you think as a conqueror probably one of you think as a conqueror probably one of you think as a conqueror probably one of the greatest conquerors in the history

the greatest conquerors in the history the greatest conquerors in the history of of of of of of humanity yeah and I mean that is is then humanity yeah and I mean that is is then humanity yeah and I mean that is is then one of the greatest heroes or one of the one of the greatest heroes or one of the one of the greatest heroes or one of the greatest villains in humanity too um greatest villains in humanity too um greatest villains in humanity too um it's like Julius Caesar he's famous for it's like Julius Caesar he's famous for it's like Julius Caesar he's famous for conquering Gaul well about a million conquering Gaul well about a million conquering Gaul well about a million people were killed a million enslaved in people were killed a million enslaved in people were killed a million enslaved in that so is that does it make him a that so is that does it make him a that so is that does it make him a horrible person or one of our heroes but horrible person or one of our heroes but horrible person or one of our heroes but Alexander um is a combination of two Alexander um is a combination of two Alexander um is a combination of two things one is he really just was a things one is he really just was a things one is he really just was a skilled individual and he was one of skilled individual and he was one of skilled individual and he was one of those guys who had it all he was smart those guys who had it all he was smart those guys who had it all he was smart he was athletic and he was supremely he was athletic and he was supremely he was athletic and he was supremely charismatic I mean it's obviously one of charismatic I mean it's obviously one of charismatic I mean it's obviously one of these people that would walk into a room these people that would walk into a room these people that would walk into a room and everyone just kind of gravitates to and everyone just kind of gravitates to and everyone just kind of gravitates to him he had that magic uh that made him him he had that magic uh that made him him he had that magic uh that made him an effective leader um and secondly he an effective leader um and secondly he an effective leader um and secondly he was lucky because it wasn't all him he was lucky because it wasn't all him he was lucky because it wasn't all him he inherited a System created by his father inherited a System created by his father inherited a System created by his father Philip II so he was in the right time at Philip II so he was in the right time at Philip II so he was in the right time at the right place and had this instrument the right place and had this instrument the right place and had this instrument placed in his hands and then he had the placed in his hands and then he had the placed in his hands and then he had the intelligence and the Charisma to go use intelligence and the Charisma to go use intelligence and the Charisma to go use it so it's one of these coming together it so it's one of these coming together it so it's one of these coming together of different things but often his of different things but often his of different things but often his father's contribution I think is is not father's contribution I think is is not father's contribution I think is is not recognized as much as it is it's his recognized as much as it is it's his recognized as much as it is it's his father who reformed the Macedonian army father who reformed the Macedonian army father who reformed the Macedonian army who came up with that system of who came up with that system of who came up with that system of equipping them with the Sissa this extra equipping them with the Sissa this extra equipping them with the Sissa this extra long spear that made them really long spear that made them really long spear that made them really effective created the mixed Army so one effective created the mixed Army so one effective created the mixed Army so one of the keys to Alexander's success as on of the keys to Alexander's success as on of the keys to Alexander's success as on a tactical sense is that his army was a tactical sense is that his army was a tactical sense is that his army was composed of different elements heavy composed of different elements heavy composed of different elements heavy Cavalry light Cavalry heavy infantry Cavalry light Cavalry heavy infantry Cavalry light Cavalry heavy infantry light infantry missile troops and he light infantry missile troops and he light infantry missile troops and he understand that he can use these in

understand that he can use these in understand that he can use these in different and flexible ways on the different and flexible ways on the different and flexible ways on the battlefield whereas a lot of warfare battlefield whereas a lot of warfare battlefield whereas a lot of warfare before then had just been you line up before then had just been you line up before then had just been you line up two sides smashed together so he did two sides smashed together so he did two sides smashed together so he did clever things with this Army that was a clever things with this Army that was a clever things with this Army that was a better tool than others did and then he better tool than others did and then he better tool than others did and then he was just supremely ambitious I mean he was just supremely ambitious I mean he was just supremely ambitious I mean he cared about his Fame which I guess is cared about his Fame which I guess is cared about his Fame which I guess is ego but he clearly cared about that more ego but he clearly cared about that more ego but he clearly cared about that more than he did about things like money um than he did about things like money um than he did about things like money um he was indifferent to that um and he did he was indifferent to that um and he did he was indifferent to that um and he did have a Grand Vision so he did have this have a Grand Vision so he did have this have a Grand Vision so he did have this vision of trying to unite the world both vision of trying to unite the world both vision of trying to unite the world both politically under his control but also politically under his control but also politically under his control but also culturally and this is an interesting culturally and this is an interesting culturally and this is an interesting thing so he was very open in fact uh thing so he was very open in fact uh thing so he was very open in fact uh insistent of trying to meld together the insistent of trying to meld together the insistent of trying to meld together the best elements of all the different best elements of all the different best elements of all the different cultures so he himself was a cultures so he himself was a cultures so he himself was a Macedonian but he admired Greek culture Macedonian but he admired Greek culture Macedonian but he admired Greek culture so he pretty much adopted Greek culture so he pretty much adopted Greek culture so he pretty much adopted Greek culture as his own when he conquers Persia he as his own when he conquers Persia he as his own when he conquers Persia he starts adapting elements of Persian starts adapting elements of Persian starts adapting elements of Persian culture he dresses in Persian clothing culture he dresses in Persian clothing culture he dresses in Persian clothing he marries a Persian woman he uh sort of he marries a Persian woman he uh sort of he marries a Persian woman he uh sort of forces thousands of his troops to marry forces thousands of his troops to marry forces thousands of his troops to marry local women he appoints Persians to local women he appoints Persians to local women he appoints Persians to positions of power he integrates pers positions of power he integrates pers positions of power he integrates pers units into his military he really wanted units into his military he really wanted units into his military he really wanted to fuse all these things together um and to fuse all these things together um and to fuse all these things together um and some people see this as a very some people see this as a very some people see this as a very enlightened uh Vision that oh he's not enlightened uh Vision that oh he's not enlightened uh Vision that oh he's not just I want to conquer people and now just I want to conquer people and now just I want to conquer people and now they're my slaves that he was really they're my slaves that he was really they're my slaves that he was really trying to create this one culture that trying to create this one culture that trying to create this one culture that was sort of the best of everything was sort of the best of everything was sort of the best of everything others see it of course as a form of others see it of course as a form of others see it of course as a form of cultural imperialism you're destroying cultural imperialism you're destroying cultural imperialism you're destroying other cultures uh and trying to warp or

other cultures uh and trying to warp or other cultures uh and trying to warp or twist them into something but what I twist them into something but what I twist them into something but what I think is interesting is that this Vision think is interesting is that this Vision think is interesting is that this Vision he had of uniting culture creates very problematic tensions among creates very problematic tensions among his own followers because the his own followers because the his own followers because the macedonians his original troops did not macedonians his original troops did not macedonians his original troops did not like this on the whole they wanted the like this on the whole they wanted the like this on the whole they wanted the old model where we conquer you you're old model where we conquer you you're old model where we conquer you you're our slaves we don't want to share stuff our slaves we don't want to share stuff our slaves we don't want to share stuff with you we don't want you joining us in with you we don't want you joining us in with you we don't want you joining us in the Army we don't want you appointed to the Army we don't want you appointed to the Army we don't want you appointed to positions of power we are your positions of power we are your positions of power we are your conquerors and that's it and so conquerors and that's it and so conquerors and that's it and so Alexander had to deal with a lot of Alexander had to deal with a lot of Alexander had to deal with a lot of friction from his own oldest most loyal friction from his own oldest most loyal friction from his own oldest most loyal elements at the way he was being in elements at the way he was being in elements at the way he was being in their eyes too generous to the conquered their eyes too generous to the conquered their eyes too generous to the conquered um so Alexander is one of these um so Alexander is one of these um so Alexander is one of these interesting personalities because every interesting personalities because every interesting personalities because every generation sees him in a new light and generation sees him in a new light and generation sees him in a new light and focuses on different things so for some focuses on different things so for some focuses on different things so for some he's this Enlighten Visionary who was he's this Enlighten Visionary who was he's this Enlighten Visionary who was taught by Aristotle the Greek taught by Aristotle the Greek taught by Aristotle the Greek philosopher and they say well this philosopher and they say well this philosopher and they say well this influen him others see him as an influen him others see him as an influen him others see him as an egomaniacal War bonger just I'm out to egomaniacal War bonger just I'm out to egomaniacal War bonger just I'm out to kill and gain Glory uh there was a book kill and gain Glory uh there was a book kill and gain Glory uh there was a book a couple decades ago it says oh he's a couple decades ago it says oh he's a couple decades ago it says oh he's just an alcoholic uh what you probably just an alcoholic uh what you probably just an alcoholic uh what you probably was yeah um so you get all these was yeah um so you get all these was yeah um so you get all these competing images and the great thing is competing images and the great thing is competing images and the great thing is we don't really know what the true we don't really know what the true we don't really know what the true Alexander was or what his motivations Alexander was or what his motivations Alexander was or what his motivations were it's it's a mixed message why do were it's it's a mixed message why do were it's it's a mixed message why do you think uh the Roman Empire lasted you think uh the Roman Empire lasted you think uh the Roman Empire lasted while the Greek Empire as the Alexander while the Greek Empire as the Alexander while the Greek Empire as the Alexander expanded did not that's a clear answer

expanded did not that's a clear answer expanded did not that's a clear answer so Alexander's Empire fragmented the so Alexander's Empire fragmented the so Alexander's Empire fragmented the moment he died moment he died moment he died and so his Empire was all about personal and so his Empire was all about personal and so his Empire was all about personal loyalty it was his Charisma holding it loyalty it was his Charisma holding it loyalty it was his Charisma holding it together his personality and he together his personality and he together his personality and he completely failed to create a structure completely failed to create a structure completely failed to create a structure is so that it would continue after his is so that it would continue after his is so that it would continue after his death and of course he died young he death and of course he died young he death and of course he died young he didn't think he would die when he did didn't think he would die when he did didn't think he would die when he did but still you should put something in but still you should put something in but still you should put something in place so his was a flash in the pan it place so his was a flash in the pan it place so his was a flash in the pan it was he had this spectacular Conquest in was he had this spectacular Conquest in was he had this spectacular Conquest in 10 years he conquered what was then most 10 years he conquered what was then most 10 years he conquered what was then most of the known world but he had no of the known world but he had no of the known world but he had no permanent structure in place he didn't permanent structure in place he didn't permanent structure in place he didn't really deal with the issue of succession really deal with the issue of succession really deal with the issue of succession it fell apart instantly the Romans are it fell apart instantly the Romans are it fell apart instantly the Romans are much more about building a structure so much more about building a structure so much more about building a structure so I mean as we talked about a little they I mean as we talked about a little they I mean as we talked about a little they were very good about incorporating the were very good about incorporating the were very good about incorporating the people they conquered into the Roman people they conquered into the Roman people they conquered into the Roman project um I mean they're oppressive project um I mean they're oppressive project um I mean they're oppressive they're imperialistic as well let's not they're imperialistic as well let's not they're imperialistic as well let's not whitewash them I mean they had moments whitewash them I mean they had moments whitewash them I mean they had moments when they would just wipe out entire when they would just wipe out entire when they would just wipe out entire cities um but on the whole they were cities um but on the whole they were cities um but on the whole they were much more about trying to bring people much more about trying to bring people much more about trying to bring people into the Roman uh world and I think that into the Roman uh world and I think that into the Roman uh world and I think that was one the strengths is that they were was one the strengths is that they were was one the strengths is that they were open to uh integration and bringing in open to uh integration and bringing in open to uh integration and bringing in different people to keep rejuvenating different people to keep rejuvenating different people to keep rejuvenating themselves one of the most influential themselves one of the most influential themselves one of the most influential developments from the Roman Republic was developments from the Roman Republic was developments from the Roman Republic was their legal system and as you mentioned their legal system and as you mentioned their legal system and as you mentioned it's one of the things that's still it's one of the things that's still it's one of the things that's still lasted to this day in many of its lasted to this day in many of its lasted to this day in many of its elements uh so it started with the 12 elements uh so it started with the 12 elements uh so it started with the 12 tables in 451 BC can you just speak to tables in 451 BC can you just speak to tables in 451 BC can you just speak to this legal system in the 12 tables yeah

this legal system in the 12 tables yeah this legal system in the 12 tables yeah I mean Roman law is one of their most I mean Roman law is one of their most I mean Roman law is one of their most significant maybe the most sign ific significant maybe the most sign ific significant maybe the most sign ific Legacy they have on the modern world so Legacy they have on the modern world so Legacy they have on the modern world so I mean just to start at that end of it I mean just to start at that end of it I mean just to start at that end of it something like you know 90% of the world something like you know 90% of the world something like you know 90% of the world uses a legal system which is either uses a legal system which is either uses a legal system which is either directly or indirectly derived from the directly or indirectly derived from the directly or indirectly derived from the Roman one so even countries that you Roman one so even countries that you Roman one so even countries that you wouldn't think are really using Roman wouldn't think are really using Roman wouldn't think are really using Roman law kind of are because all the law kind of are because all the law kind of are because all the terminology all that comes from Roman terminology all that comes from Roman terminology all that comes from Roman law um and the Romans their first law law um and the Romans their first law law um and the Romans their first law code was this thing the 12 tables so code was this thing the 12 tables so code was this thing the 12 tables so this is way back in the middle Republic this is way back in the middle Republic this is way back in the middle Republic uh and it was a typical early law code uh and it was a typical early law code uh and it was a typical early law code so most of the stuff it concerns are uh so most of the stuff it concerns are uh so most of the stuff it concerns are uh agricultural concerns so if I have a agricultural concerns so if I have a agricultural concerns so if I have a tree and its fruit drops onto your tree and its fruit drops onto your tree and its fruit drops onto your property who owns the fruit if my cow property who owns the fruit if my cow property who owns the fruit if my cow wanders into your field and eats your wanders into your field and eats your wanders into your field and eats your grain am I responsible I mean I love grain am I responsible I mean I love grain am I responsible I mean I love these early law codes that are all about these early law codes that are all about these early law codes that are all about this like farmer problems you know um this like farmer problems you know um this like farmer problems you know um but law codes are hugely important but law codes are hugely important but law codes are hugely important because you need a law code to enable because you need a law code to enable because you need a law code to enable people to live in groups so they're the people to live in groups so they're the people to live in groups so they're the transitional thing that lets human transitional thing that lets human transitional thing that lets human beings live together without just beings live together without just beings live together without just resorting to Anarchy and most of the resorting to Anarchy and most of the resorting to Anarchy and most of the early law codes are agricultural like early law codes are agricultural like early law codes are agricultural like Hammer obi's code in Mesopotamia most of Hammer obi's code in Mesopotamia most of Hammer obi's code in Mesopotamia most of them are retaliatory meaning uh eye for them are retaliatory meaning uh eye for them are retaliatory meaning uh eye for an eye type justice so you do something an eye type justice so you do something an eye type justice so you do something to me it gets done to you but there are to me it gets done to you but there are to me it gets done to you but there are this necessary precondition for this necessary precondition for this necessary precondition for civilization I would say and the 12 civilization I would say and the 12 civilization I would say and the 12 tables is that it's a crude law code it tables is that it's a crude law code it tables is that it's a crude law code it has a lot of goofy stuff in it it has has a lot of goofy stuff in it it has has a lot of goofy stuff in it it has things about you know if you use magic

things about you know if you use magic things about you know if you use magic this is the punishment um but it's that this is the punishment um but it's that this is the punishment um but it's that basic agrarian society law code now basic agrarian society law code now basic agrarian society law code now that's typical of many societies where that's typical of many societies where that's typical of many societies where the Romans are different is they keep the Romans are different is they keep the Romans are different is they keep going they keep developing their law going they keep developing their law going they keep developing their law code and by the late Republic uh the code and by the late Republic uh the code and by the late Republic uh the Romans just get kind of really into Romans just get kind of really into Romans just get kind of really into legal stuff I don't know why but um and legal stuff I don't know why but um and legal stuff I don't know why but um and the Romans are very methodical organized the Romans are very methodical organized the Romans are very methodical organized people so maybe this has something to do people so maybe this has something to do people so maybe this has something to do with it um but their law code just get with it um but their law code just get with it um but their law code just get keeps getting more and more complicated keeps getting more and more complicated keeps getting more and more complicated uh and keeps expanding to different uh and keeps expanding to different uh and keeps expanding to different areas and they start to get jurists who areas and they start to get jurists who areas and they start to get jurists who write sort of the thetical things about write sort of the thetical things about write sort of the thetical things about Roman law um and eventually it becomes Roman law um and eventually it becomes Roman law um and eventually it becomes this huge body both of cases and this huge body both of cases and this huge body both of cases and comments on those cases and of actual comments on those cases and of actual comments on those cases and of actual laws and in the 6th Century a so the laws and in the 6th Century a so the laws and in the 6th Century a so the 500s um the Roman Emperor Justinian who 500s um the Roman Emperor Justinian who 500s um the Roman Emperor Justinian who is a u emperor of the Eastern Roman is a u emperor of the Eastern Roman is a u emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire by this point the Byzantine Empire by this point the Byzantine Empire by this point the Byzantine Empire compiles all this together into Empire compiles all this together into Empire compiles all this together into something that today we just kind of something that today we just kind of something that today we just kind of loosely call Justinian's code of Roman loosely call Justinian's code of Roman loosely call Justinian's code of Roman law and that survives and so that law and that survives and so that law and that survives and so that becomes the basis for almost all the becomes the basis for almost all the becomes the basis for almost all the legal systems around the world and it's legal systems around the world and it's legal systems around the world and it's very complicated and Roman law I think very complicated and Roman law I think very complicated and Roman law I think is really fun because on the oneand it's is really fun because on the oneand it's is really fun because on the oneand it's really dry but it also preserves these really dry but it also preserves these really dry but it also preserves these wonderful little uh vignettes of daily wonderful little uh vignettes of daily wonderful little uh vignettes of daily life so you get these great just kind of life so you get these great just kind of life so you get these great just kind of entertaining law cases uh one of my entertaining law cases uh one of my entertaining law cases uh one of my favorite and this may not even be a real favorite and this may not even be a real favorite and this may not even be a real case this might be a hypothetical that case this might be a hypothetical that case this might be a hypothetical that they would use like to train Roman sort they would use like to train Roman sort they would use like to train Roman sort of you know law students is like one day of you know law students is like one day of you know law students is like one day a man sends a slave to the barber to get a man sends a slave to the barber to get a man sends a slave to the barber to get a shave and the barber shop is adjacent

a shave and the barber shop is adjacent a shave and the barber shop is adjacent to an athletic field and two guys are on to an athletic field and two guys are on to an athletic field and two guys are on the athletic field throwing a ball back the athletic field throwing a ball back the athletic field throwing a ball back and forth and one of them throws the and forth and one of them throws the and forth and one of them throws the ball badly the other guy fails to catch ball badly the other guy fails to catch ball badly the other guy fails to catch it the ball flies into the barber shop it the ball flies into the barber shop it the ball flies into the barber shop hits the hand of the barber cuts the hits the hand of the barber cuts the hits the hand of the barber cuts the slave's throat he dies who's liable slave's throat he dies who's liable slave's throat he dies who's liable under Roman law is it the athlete one under Roman law is it the athlete one under Roman law is it the athlete one who threw the ball badly is it athlete who threw the ball badly is it athlete who threw the ball badly is it athlete two who failed to catch it is the barber two who failed to catch it is the barber two who failed to catch it is the barber who actually cut the slave's throat is who actually cut the slave's throat is who actually cut the slave's throat is it the owner of the slave for being it the owner of the slave for being it the owner of the slave for being stupid enough to send his his slave to stupid enough to send his his slave to stupid enough to send his his slave to get a a shave in a place adjacent to a get a a shave in a place adjacent to a get a a shave in a place adjacent to a playing field or is it the Roman State playing field or is it the Roman State playing field or is it the Roman State zoning a barber shop next to an athletic zoning a barber shop next to an athletic zoning a barber shop next to an athletic field what do you think well do they field what do you think well do they field what do you think well do they resolve the complexity of that with the resolve the complexity of that with the resolve the complexity of that with the right answer we don't have the answer we right answer we don't have the answer we right answer we don't have the answer we don't have the answer it's a case don't have the answer it's a case don't have the answer it's a case without uh the answer so we know we have without uh the answer so we know we have without uh the answer so we know we have various uh jurists commenting on this various uh jurists commenting on this various uh jurists commenting on this one but we don't have what was actually one but we don't have what was actually one but we don't have what was actually ruled but it's just a great little you ruled but it's just a great little you ruled but it's just a great little you know sort of vignette um and that's how know sort of vignette um and that's how know sort of vignette um and that's how complicated Roman law got that it was complicated Roman law got that it was complicated Roman law got that it was dealing with these weird esoteric dealing with these weird esoteric dealing with these weird esoteric questions um there's another one where questions um there's another one where questions um there's another one where you know a cow gets loose and runs into you know a cow gets loose and runs into you know a cow gets loose and runs into an apartment building goes up onto the an apartment building goes up onto the an apartment building goes up onto the roof and crashes down three stories into roof and crashes down three stories into roof and crashes down three stories into a bar on the ground floor and kicks open a bar on the ground floor and kicks open a bar on the ground floor and kicks open the Taps to the wine jug and all the the Taps to the wine jug and all the the Taps to the wine jug and all the wine flows out who's at fault I mean wine flows out who's at fault I mean wine flows out who's at fault I mean this seems to have happened as as crazy this seems to have happened as as crazy this seems to have happened as as crazy as it sounds um and and Roman as it sounds um and and Roman as it sounds um and and Roman testamentary law is great I mean testamentary law is great I mean testamentary law is great I mean something like 20% of Roman law has to something like 20% of Roman law has to something like 20% of Roman law has to do with wills and what you do with the do with wills and what you do with the do with wills and what you do with the will and what makes a will valid uh you

will and what makes a will valid uh you will and what makes a will valid uh you know you have to have seven Witnesses know you have to have seven Witnesses know you have to have seven Witnesses and you have to have a guy named a and you have to have a guy named a and you have to have a guy named a Lieber pren to witness it and the Lieber pren to witness it and the Lieber pren to witness it and the witnesses have to be adult men who can't witnesses have to be adult men who can't witnesses have to be adult men who can't be blind and all this other stuff um so be blind and all this other stuff um so be blind and all this other stuff um so it's just great I mean it's fun to mess it's just great I mean it's fun to mess it's just great I mean it's fun to mess around in this but it always contains around in this but it always contains around in this but it always contains these little nuggets about what happens these little nuggets about what happens these little nuggets about what happens um I mentioned I wrote a book on floods um I mentioned I wrote a book on floods um I mentioned I wrote a book on floods and there were all these law cases about and there were all these law cases about and there were all these law cases about if a flood strikes the city and picks up if a flood strikes the city and picks up if a flood strikes the city and picks up my piece of furniture in my apartment my piece of furniture in my apartment my piece of furniture in my apartment building and carries it out the door and building and carries it out the door and building and carries it out the door and deposits it in another apartment deposits it in another apartment deposits it in another apartment building does that guy now own my building does that guy now own my building does that guy now own my furniture because it's now legally furniture because it's now legally furniture because it's now legally within his apartment or can I go in within his apartment or can I go in within his apartment or can I go in there and repossess it because the flood there and repossess it because the flood there and repossess it because the flood took it out of my apartment you know took it out of my apartment you know took it out of my apartment you know this is the stuff laws handle and that's this is the stuff laws handle and that's this is the stuff laws handle and that's how sophisticated Roman law got did kind how sophisticated Roman law got did kind how sophisticated Roman law got did kind of corrupt unfair things seep into the of corrupt unfair things seep into the of corrupt unfair things seep into the law oh yeah I mean it it's biased in law oh yeah I mean it it's biased in law oh yeah I mean it it's biased in favor of the wealthy obviously and I favor of the wealthy obviously and I favor of the wealthy obviously and I mean um you know Roman um law cases are mean um you know Roman um law cases are mean um you know Roman um law cases are interesting because they became linked interesting because they became linked interesting because they became linked to politics so one of the way that to politics so one of the way that to politics so one of the way that politicians upand cominging politicians politicians upand cominging politicians politicians upand cominging politicians aspiring politicians could sort of make aspiring politicians could sort of make aspiring politicians could sort of make their name or become famous was by their name or become famous was by their name or become famous was by either Prosecuting or defending people either Prosecuting or defending people either Prosecuting or defending people in Roman Law Courts and especially in Roman Law Courts and especially in Roman Law Courts and especially during the late Roman during the late Roman during the late Roman Republic uh you get a lot of really Republic uh you get a lot of really Republic uh you get a lot of really Sensational what today we' call Sensational what today we' call Sensational what today we' call celebrity law cases so this is where celebrity law cases so this is where celebrity law cases so this is where some of the biggest politicians were some of the biggest politicians were some of the biggest politicians were accused of very melodramatic kinds of accused of very melodramatic kinds of accused of very melodramatic kinds of things um and I mean the most famous things um and I mean the most famous things um and I mean the most famous Roman order of all time Cicero is a guy Roman order of all time Cicero is a guy Roman order of all time Cicero is a guy who made his entire career in the Law

who made his entire career in the Law who made his entire career in the Law Courts and that's how he made his Courts and that's how he made his Courts and that's how he made his reputation was able to Parlay that into reputation was able to Parlay that into reputation was able to Parlay that into political power and eventually was political power and eventually was political power and eventually was elected to the highest office in the elected to the highest office in the elected to the highest office in the Roman government but it's purely because Roman government but it's purely because Roman government but it's purely because of his skill his facility at using words of his skill his facility at using words of his skill his facility at using words um at at giving speeches in public so um at at giving speeches in public so um at at giving speeches in public so they loved the puzzle and the game of they loved the puzzle and the game of they loved the puzzle and the game of law the the sort of uh untangling really law the the sort of uh untangling really law the the sort of uh untangling really complicated legal situations and coming complicated legal situations and coming complicated legal situations and coming up with new laws that help you tangle up with new laws that help you tangle up with new laws that help you tangle and untangle the the situation and law and untangle the the situation and law and untangle the the situation and law cases again especially in the late cases again especially in the late cases again especially in the late Republic also became a form of public Republic also became a form of public Republic also became a form of public spectacle right so Rome did not have uh spectacle right so Rome did not have uh spectacle right so Rome did not have uh Law Courts in a building locked away a Law Courts in a building locked away a Law Courts in a building locked away a lot of these cases were held in the lot of these cases were held in the lot of these cases were held in the Roman Forum in the open and audiences Roman Forum in the open and audiences Roman Forum in the open and audiences would just come to be entertained and would just come to be entertained and would just come to be entertained and the people presenting the speeches there the people presenting the speeches there the people presenting the speeches there were playing as much to this audience as were playing as much to this audience as were playing as much to this audience as they were to let's say the jury or a they were to let's say the jury or a they were to let's say the jury or a judge and that became a big part of the judge and that became a big part of the judge and that became a big part of the cases so that that's all tied up in cases so that that's all tied up in cases so that that's all tied up in Roman oror too we're talking a bit about Roman oror too we're talking a bit about Roman oror too we're talking a bit about the the the details uh of the laws is there some big details uh of the laws is there some big details uh of the laws is there some big picture laws there are new Innovations picture laws there are new Innovations picture laws there are new Innovations or like profound things like uh all or like profound things like uh all or like profound things like uh all Roman citizens are equal before the law Roman citizens are equal before the law Roman citizens are equal before the law kind of founding fathers type of in in kind of founding fathers type of in in kind of founding fathers type of in in the United States in the Western World the United States in the Western World the United States in the Western World these big legal ideas I think maybe one these big legal ideas I think maybe one these big legal ideas I think maybe one of the things that was really stressed of the things that was really stressed of the things that was really stressed in Roman law early on even as early as in Roman law early on even as early as in Roman law early on even as early as the 12 tables is the notion of Roman the 12 tables is the notion of Roman the 12 tables is the notion of Roman citizenship citizenship citizenship so if you were a Roman citizen it came so if you were a Roman citizen it came so if you were a Roman citizen it came with a set of um both Privileges and

with a set of um both Privileges and with a set of um both Privileges and obligations so the obligations were obligations so the obligations were obligations so the obligations were you're supposed to fight in the Army you you're supposed to fight in the Army you you're supposed to fight in the Army you were supposed to vote in elections the were supposed to vote in elections the were supposed to vote in elections the Privileges were you had the protection Privileges were you had the protection Privileges were you had the protection of Roman law and at least in theory if of Roman law and at least in theory if of Roman law and at least in theory if not in practice everybody was equal not in practice everybody was equal not in practice everybody was equal under that law now of course keep in under that law now of course keep in under that law now of course keep in mind we're talking about men here and mind we're talking about men here and mind we're talking about men here and even at the height of the Roman Empire even at the height of the Roman Empire even at the height of the Roman Empire so let's say 2 Century ad there were so let's say 2 Century ad there were so let's say 2 Century ad there were about 50 million human beings living about 50 million human beings living about 50 million human beings living within the boundaries of the Roman within the boundaries of the Roman within the boundaries of the Roman Empire Empire Empire maybe 6 million were actual citizens so maybe 6 million were actual citizens so maybe 6 million were actual citizens so you know this is we tend to go oh it's you know this is we tend to go oh it's you know this is we tend to go oh it's so great if you're a SZ and you have all so great if you're a SZ and you have all so great if you're a SZ and you have all these things well adult free men who are these things well adult free men who are these things well adult free men who are not slaves who are not resident not slaves who are not resident not slaves who are not resident foreigners they have this great stuff foreigners they have this great stuff foreigners they have this great stuff and that's always a tiny minority of all and that's always a tiny minority of all and that's always a tiny minority of all the human beings who existed in this the human beings who existed in this the human beings who existed in this Society but still the notion the notion Society but still the notion the notion Society but still the notion the notion of citizenship is huge and citizens for of citizenship is huge and citizens for of citizenship is huge and citizens for example early on you had to be tried at example early on you had to be tried at example early on you had to be tried at Rome if you were accused of something um Rome if you were accused of something um Rome if you were accused of something um and there's this very famous moment uh and there's this very famous moment uh and there's this very famous moment uh in Sicily where an abusive governor in Sicily where an abusive governor in Sicily where an abusive governor who's corrupt uh is is uh punishing a who's corrupt uh is is uh punishing a who's corrupt uh is is uh punishing a citizen citizen citizen arbitrarily and this person Cries Out KS arbitrarily and this person Cries Out KS arbitrarily and this person Cries Out KS romanum meaning I am a Roman citizen and romanum meaning I am a Roman citizen and romanum meaning I am a Roman citizen and it really was this hugely loaded it really was this hugely loaded it really was this hugely loaded statement that that gives me protections statement that that gives me protections statement that that gives me protections it is wrong WR for you to do this to me it is wrong WR for you to do this to me it is wrong WR for you to do this to me it's wrong for you to beat me because I it's wrong for you to beat me because I it's wrong for you to beat me because I am a citizen and that gives me certain am a citizen and that gives me certain am a citizen and that gives me certain protections so that notion of

protections so that notion of protections so that notion of citizenship is something that I think uh citizenship is something that I think uh citizenship is something that I think uh the Romans really emphasize and becomes the Romans really emphasize and becomes the Romans really emphasize and becomes a legacy to a lot of civilizations today a legacy to a lot of civilizations today a legacy to a lot of civilizations today where citizenship means something it's where citizenship means something it's where citizenship means something it's it's a special status so you mentioned it's a special status so you mentioned it's a special status so you mentioned slaves slavery that's something that is slaves slavery that's something that is slaves slavery that's something that is common throughout human history what do common throughout human history what do common throughout human history what do we know about their relationship with uh we know about their relationship with uh we know about their relationship with uh slavery well Roman slavery couple just slavery well Roman slavery couple just slavery well Roman slavery couple just reminders at the beginning first of all reminders at the beginning first of all reminders at the beginning first of all it's not racial slavery so for people it's not racial slavery so for people it's not racial slavery so for people you know in the United States you tend you know in the United States you tend you know in the United States you tend to think of slavery through this kind of to think of slavery through this kind of to think of slavery through this kind of racial lens so PE slaves in ancient racial lens so PE slaves in ancient racial lens so PE slaves in ancient Roman society could be any color Roman society could be any color Roman society could be any color ethnicity gender you know origin ethnicity gender you know origin ethnicity gender you know origin whatever it it's an economic status now whatever it it's an economic status now whatever it it's an economic status now having said that slavery is is having said that slavery is is having said that slavery is is fundamentally horrific to human dignity fundamentally horrific to human dignity fundamentally horrific to human dignity because it is defining a human being as because it is defining a human being as because it is defining a human being as an object object uh and very famously a an object object uh and very famously a an object object uh and very famously a Roman agricultural writer who's writing Roman agricultural writer who's writing Roman agricultural writer who's writing about Farms just as a kind of a side about Farms just as a kind of a side about Farms just as a kind of a side says you know on your farm you have says you know on your farm you have says you know on your farm you have three types of tools you have uh dumb three types of tools you have uh dumb three types of tools you have uh dumb tools and by dummy means can't speak so tools and by dummy means can't speak so tools and by dummy means can't speak so that's like shovels you know picss that's like shovels you know picss that's like shovels you know picss things like this wagons you have semi things like this wagons you have semi things like this wagons you have semi articulate tools which are animals and articulate tools which are animals and articulate tools which are animals and you have articulate tools which are you have articulate tools which are you have articulate tools which are human beings slaves and for him these human beings slaves and for him these human beings slaves and for him these are all just categories of tools you are all just categories of tools you are all just categories of tools you know it's it's it's so intensely know it's it's it's so intensely know it's it's it's so intensely dehumanizing to view people in that way dehumanizing to view people in that way dehumanizing to view people in that way so Roman slavery is odd and that it so Roman slavery is odd and that it so Roman slavery is odd and that it doesn't have this racial component it's

doesn't have this racial component it's doesn't have this racial component it's horrible in the way all slavery is horrible in the way all slavery is horrible in the way all slavery is horrible but the other thing about is horrible but the other thing about is horrible but the other thing about is it's not a hard line it's a permeable it's not a hard line it's a permeable it's not a hard line it's a permeable membrane and many people move back and membrane and many people move back and membrane and many people move back and forth across it so you have many people forth across it so you have many people forth across it so you have many people in the Roman world who were born a slave in the Roman world who were born a slave in the Roman world who were born a slave who gain their freedom through one means who gain their freedom through one means who gain their freedom through one means or another and you have many others who or another and you have many others who or another and you have many others who were born free and become slaves and you were born free and become slaves and you were born free and become slaves and you have some who go back and forth um have some who go back and forth um have some who go back and forth um there's a great Roman Tombstone of this there's a great Roman Tombstone of this there's a great Roman Tombstone of this guy who says I was born a free man in guy who says I was born a free man in guy who says I was born a free man in Parthia I was enslaved then I gained my Parthia I was enslaved then I gained my Parthia I was enslaved then I gained my freedom and I became a teacher or freedom and I became a teacher or freedom and I became a teacher or something and I had a life and now I'm a something and I had a life and now I'm a something and I had a life and now I'm a Roman citizen so it's this whole like Roman citizen so it's this whole like Roman citizen so it's this whole like back and forth uh across all these back and forth uh across all these back and forth uh across all these boundaries multiple times oh so there's boundaries multiple times oh so there's boundaries multiple times oh so there's probably a process like an economic probably a process like an economic probably a process like an economic transaction the most common source of transaction the most common source of transaction the most common source of slaves in the Roman world was war so slaves in the Roman world was war so slaves in the Roman world was war so wherever the Roman army went in its way wherever the Roman army went in its way wherever the Roman army went in its way would be literally a train of slave would be literally a train of slave would be literally a train of slave Traders so you're in war you capture an Traders so you're in war you capture an Traders so you're in war you capture an enemy City you whack the people over the enemy City you whack the people over the enemy City you whack the people over the head and you turn around if you're a head and you turn around if you're a head and you turn around if you're a soldier and you sell them to one of soldier and you sell them to one of soldier and you sell them to one of these slave Traders that's following the these slave Traders that's following the these slave Traders that's following the Army around literally so that's probably Army around literally so that's probably Army around literally so that's probably the biggest source of slaves another big the biggest source of slaves another big the biggest source of slaves another big source is just children of slaves or source is just children of slaves or source is just children of slaves or slaves slaves slaves um and some people could literally sell um and some people could literally sell um and some people could literally sell either themselves or their children into either themselves or their children into either themselves or their children into slavery due to economic uh you know slavery due to economic uh you know slavery due to economic uh you know necessity or privation or something so necessity or privation or something so necessity or privation or something so as terrible as that sounds a father as terrible as that sounds a father as terrible as that sounds a father could sell a child uh if he needed money could sell a child uh if he needed money could sell a child uh if he needed money um once you were a slave though the

um once you were a slave though the um once you were a slave though the experience of slavery varied a lot experience of slavery varied a lot experience of slavery varied a lot because a lot of the slaves were because a lot of the slaves were because a lot of the slaves were agricultural slaves so they would work agricultural slaves so they would work agricultural slaves so they would work sort of like in the American South big sort of like in the American South big sort of like in the American South big plantations um they might be chained plantations um they might be chained plantations um they might be chained they were probably abused that's very they were probably abused that's very they were probably abused that's very similar to slavery as we think of it in similar to slavery as we think of it in similar to slavery as we think of it in you know let's say the Caribbean in you know let's say the Caribbean in you know let's say the Caribbean in South America or the United States prior South America or the United States prior South America or the United States prior to the Civil War that kind of slavery to the Civil War that kind of slavery to the Civil War that kind of slavery but a lot of Roman slaves were also some but a lot of Roman slaves were also some but a lot of Roman slaves were also some of the more skilled people and this of the more skilled people and this of the more skilled people and this seems a little weird so if you're a rich seems a little weird so if you're a rich seems a little weird so if you're a rich person you have slaves it's actually a person you have slaves it's actually a person you have slaves it's actually a good investment for you to train your good investment for you to train your good investment for you to train your slaves in a profession so a lot of Roman slaves in a profession so a lot of Roman slaves in a profession so a lot of Roman doctors uh scribes um accountants sort doctors uh scribes um accountants sort doctors uh scribes um accountants sort of all this sort of thing uh Barbers of all this sort of thing uh Barbers of all this sort of thing uh Barbers were slaves because if you train this were slaves because if you train this were slaves because if you train this person and then they produce a lot of person and then they produce a lot of person and then they produce a lot of money for you you get that money um and money for you you get that money um and money for you you get that money um and those slaves would sometimes be given an those slaves would sometimes be given an those slaves would sometimes be given an incentive to work hard where they could incentive to work hard where they could incentive to work hard where they could and this is just sort of an agreement and this is just sort of an agreement and this is just sort of an agreement between the master and the slave if they between the master and the slave if they between the master and the slave if they earned a certain amount of money x earned a certain amount of money x earned a certain amount of money x amount of money they could then buy amount of money they could then buy amount of money they could then buy their own freedom from the master so their own freedom from the master so their own freedom from the master so this was your incentive to work harder this was your incentive to work harder this was your incentive to work harder if you were trained let's say as a if you were trained let's say as a if you were trained let's say as a doctor I work really hard I can buy doctor I work really hard I can buy doctor I work really hard I can buy myself out of slavery or a lot of myself out of slavery or a lot of myself out of slavery or a lot of Masters would free their slaves and Masters would free their slaves and Masters would free their slaves and their Wills um so when they die that their Wills um so when they die that their Wills um so when they die that would say I manumit this slave and that would say I manumit this slave and that would say I manumit this slave and that slave so it was a weird institution and slave so it was a weird institution and slave so it was a weird institution and that it was elements were just as that it was elements were just as that it was elements were just as horrible as what we think of a slavery horrible as what we think of a slavery horrible as what we think of a slavery and just as exploitative and like I say

and just as exploitative and like I say and just as exploitative and like I say the overall notion of slavery is is the overall notion of slavery is is the overall notion of slavery is is intensely intensely intensely dehumanizing but yet there was this wide dehumanizing but yet there was this wide dehumanizing but yet there was this wide range of types of slaves um and the odd range of types of slaves um and the odd range of types of slaves um and the odd thing is in the city of Rome many of the thing is in the city of Rome many of the thing is in the city of Rome many of the worst jobs so if you're you know uh just worst jobs so if you're you know uh just worst jobs so if you're you know uh just a labor hauling crap around you know the a labor hauling crap around you know the a labor hauling crap around you know the docks or you know things like that you docks or you know things like that you docks or you know things like that you might well be a free person and a slave might well be a free person and a slave might well be a free person and a slave would hold a skilled job and that seems would hold a skilled job and that seems would hold a skilled job and that seems a little strange or counterintuitive to a little strange or counterintuitive to a little strange or counterintuitive to us but you see how in the Roman economy us but you see how in the Roman economy us but you see how in the Roman economy it it sort of works and that could be it it sort of works and that could be it it sort of works and that could be one of the things that would be one of the things that would be one of the things that would be surprising to us coming from the modern surprising to us coming from the modern surprising to us coming from the modern day to the ancient world is just the day to the ancient world is just the day to the ancient world is just the number of slaves so you mentioned one of number of slaves so you mentioned one of number of slaves so you mentioned one of the things we don't think about is that the things we don't think about is that the things we don't think about is that most of the people are farmers yeah and most of the people are farmers yeah and most of the people are farmers yeah and then the other thing is just the number then the other thing is just the number then the other thing is just the number of slaves there's a big debate how many of slaves there's a big debate how many of slaves there's a big debate how many slaves were there um you know what slaves were there um you know what slaves were there um you know what percentage of the populace let's say in percentage of the populace let's say in percentage of the populace let's say in the city of Rome were slaves and this is the city of Rome were slaves and this is the city of Rome were slaves and this is something historians like to argue about something historians like to argue about something historians like to argue about a lot and we keep coming back to this a lot and we keep coming back to this a lot and we keep coming back to this theme of you know sometimes it's the theme of you know sometimes it's the theme of you know sometimes it's the little things that illustrate stuff well little things that illustrate stuff well little things that illustrate stuff well and and for slaves the the one that and and for slaves the the one that and and for slaves the the one that always gets me is some slaves and these always gets me is some slaves and these always gets me is some slaves and these would be sort of the more abused slaves would be sort of the more abused slaves would be sort of the more abused slaves they would literally put little bronze they would literally put little bronze they would literally put little bronze collars on them with a tag that said you collars on them with a tag that said you collars on them with a tag that said you know hi my name is Felix I'm the slave know hi my name is Felix I'm the slave know hi my name is Felix I'm the slave of soand so I run away if you catch me of soand so I run away if you catch me of soand so I run away if you catch me return me to the Temple of so and so and return me to the Temple of so and so and return me to the Temple of so and so and you'll get a reward so just it's a dog you'll get a reward so just it's a dog you'll get a reward so just it's a dog tag right except this is a human being tag right except this is a human being tag right except this is a human being and you can see these in museums I mean and you can see these in museums I mean and you can see these in museums I mean you can go to Museum today and see this you can go to Museum today and see this you can go to Museum today and see this little bronze collar with a tag on it

little bronze collar with a tag on it little bronze collar with a tag on it that's talking about a human being as if that's talking about a human being as if that's talking about a human being as if they're this kind of animal that's run they're this kind of animal that's run they're this kind of animal that's run away and and this is very telling too away and and this is very telling too away and and this is very telling too we're talking about Roman law under we're talking about Roman law under we're talking about Roman law under Roman law Technically when a slave runs Roman law Technically when a slave runs Roman law Technically when a slave runs away the crime that he's committing is away the crime that he's committing is away the crime that he's committing is theft because he's stolen his himself theft because he's stolen his himself theft because he's stolen his himself from his master so again it's it's this from his master so again it's it's this from his master so again it's it's this very dehumanizing view of it and just a very dehumanizing view of it and just a very dehumanizing view of it and just a reminder to people in America are reminder to people in America are reminder to people in America are thinking about this we have a certain thinking about this we have a certain thinking about this we have a certain View and picture to what slavery is a View and picture to what slavery is a View and picture to what slavery is a reminder that all of human history most reminder that all of human history most reminder that all of human history most of human history has had slaves of all of human history has had slaves of all of human history has had slaves of all colors of all colors of all colors of all religions that's within us to select a religions that's within us to select a religions that's within us to select a group of people call them the other use group of people call them the other use group of people call them the other use them as objects abuse them and I would them as objects abuse them and I would them as objects abuse them and I would say as a person who believes the line say as a person who believes the line say as a person who believes the line between good and evil runs to the heart between good and evil runs to the heart between good and evil runs to the heart of every man all of us every person of every man all of us every person of every man all of us every person listening to this is capable of being listening to this is capable of being listening to this is capable of being owner of a slave if they're put in the owner of a slave if they're put in the owner of a slave if they're put in the position of capable of hating the other position of capable of hating the other position of capable of hating the other of forming the other of of othering of forming the other of of othering of forming the other of of othering other people and we should be very other people and we should be very other people and we should be very careful not to uh um to look ourselves careful not to uh um to look ourselves careful not to uh um to look ourselves in the mirror and remind ourselves that in the mirror and remind ourselves that in the mirror and remind ourselves that we're human it's easy to kind of think we're human it's easy to kind of think we're human it's easy to kind of think okay well there's there's these slaves okay well there's there's these slaves okay well there's there's these slaves and slave owners through history and I and slave owners through history and I and slave owners through history and I would have never been one of those but would have never been one of those but would have never been one of those but um just like as we would be Farmers we

um just like as we would be Farmers we um just like as we would be Farmers we could be both if we go went back into could be both if we go went back into could be both if we go went back into history we could be both slaves and history we could be both slaves and history we could be both slaves and slave owners and all of those are humans slave owners and all of those are humans slave owners and all of those are humans I mean just to build on that I'd say the I mean just to build on that I'd say the I mean just to build on that I'd say the othering of others is a morally othering of others is a morally othering of others is a morally corrosive thing to do corrosive thing to do corrosive thing to do yeah uh so this fascinating transition yeah uh so this fascinating transition yeah uh so this fascinating transition between the Republic to the Empire can between the Republic to the Empire can between the Republic to the Empire can we talk about that how does the Republic we talk about that how does the Republic we talk about that how does the Republic fall oh boy okay fall oh boy okay fall oh boy okay so the Roman Republic on the one hand is so the Roman Republic on the one hand is so the Roman Republic on the one hand is incredibly successful right in a short incredibly successful right in a short incredibly successful right in a short period of time is expanded wildly it's period of time is expanded wildly it's period of time is expanded wildly it's conquered the Mediterranean world it's conquered the Mediterranean world it's conquered the Mediterranean world it's gained tons of wealth the contradiction gained tons of wealth the contradiction gained tons of wealth the contradiction here is that Rome's very success here is that Rome's very success here is that Rome's very success has made almost every group within Roman has made almost every group within Roman has made almost every group within Roman society deeply unhappy and boiling with society deeply unhappy and boiling with society deeply unhappy and boiling with resentment so this is the contradiction resentment so this is the contradiction resentment so this is the contradiction enormous success on the surface you end enormous success on the surface you end enormous success on the surface you end up with this boiling pot of resentment up with this boiling pot of resentment up with this boiling pot of resentment and unhappiness so let's break this down and unhappiness so let's break this down and unhappiness so let's break this down who's unhappy who's unhappy who's unhappy well the people fighting Rome's Wars the well the people fighting Rome's Wars the well the people fighting Rome's Wars the common farmers who went off to fight common farmers who went off to fight common farmers who went off to fight they they join the army they went and they they join the army they went and they they join the army they went and fought they've come back they've seen fought they've come back they've seen fought they've come back they've seen Rome get wealthy they've seen their Rome get wealthy they've seen their Rome get wealthy they've seen their generals get wealthy they've Ed all generals get wealthy they've Ed all generals get wealthy they've Ed all these areas all this money and stuff is these areas all this money and stuff is these areas all this money and stuff is flowing back to Rome but when they're flowing back to Rome but when they're flowing back to Rome but when they're discharged from the army they don't get discharged from the army they don't get discharged from the army they don't get that much so they feel like I spent the that much so they feel like I spent the that much so they feel like I spent the best years of my life fighting for my best years of my life fighting for my best years of my life fighting for my country I deserve a reward I haven't country I deserve a reward I haven't country I deserve a reward I haven't gotten it so you have a lot of veterans gotten it so you have a lot of veterans gotten it so you have a lot of veterans who are now unemployed or underemployed

who are now unemployed or underemployed who are now unemployed or underemployed many of them have sold their small many of them have sold their small many of them have sold their small Family Farms when they went off to join Family Farms when they went off to join Family Farms when they went off to join the Army and now they don't have them so the Army and now they don't have them so the Army and now they don't have them so that group's unhappy the veterans you that group's unhappy the veterans you that group's unhappy the veterans you have um The Aristocrats who on the have um The Aristocrats who on the have um The Aristocrats who on the surface the the ones who are doing well surface the the ones who are doing well surface the the ones who are doing well they're the politicians and the generals they're the politicians and the generals they're the politicians and the generals But as time goes on the ones who get the But as time goes on the ones who get the But as time goes on the ones who get the plum appointments who get the good plum appointments who get the good plum appointments who get the good General ships starts coming from a General ships starts coming from a General ships starts coming from a smaller and smaller subset of the smaller and smaller subset of the smaller and smaller subset of the aristocrats the skios and their friends aristocrats the skios and their friends aristocrats the skios and their friends start to dominate so you end up where start to dominate so you end up where start to dominate so you end up where most of the aristocratic class is most of the aristocratic class is most of the aristocratic class is feeling hey I I'm left out I didn't get feeling hey I I'm left out I didn't get feeling hey I I'm left out I didn't get what I deserved what about the half what I deserved what about the half what I deserved what about the half citizens and the Allies the Italians who citizens and the Allies the Italians who citizens and the Allies the Italians who have fought for Rome who stayed loyal have fought for Rome who stayed loyal have fought for Rome who stayed loyal when Hannibal invaded they didn't go when Hannibal invaded they didn't go when Hannibal invaded they didn't go over to his side well they feel over to his side well they feel over to his side well they feel rightfully we stayed loyal to Rome we rightfully we stayed loyal to Rome we rightfully we stayed loyal to Rome we fought for them we deserve our reward we fought for them we deserve our reward we fought for them we deserve our reward we should be full citizens but the Romans should be full citizens but the Romans should be full citizens but the Romans are traditional they're conservative are traditional they're conservative are traditional they're conservative they don't like change they don't give they don't like change they don't give they don't like change they don't give them that uh what about all the slaves them that uh what about all the slaves them that uh what about all the slaves well they've conquered all these well they've conquered all these well they've conquered all these foreigners they've sold them now many of foreigners they've sold them now many of foreigners they've sold them now many of them are working these plantations big them are working these plantations big them are working these plantations big plantations owned by rich people that plantations owned by rich people that plantations owned by rich people that used to be little Family Farms the used to be little Family Farms the used to be little Family Farms the slaves are obviously unhappy so you end slaves are obviously unhappy so you end slaves are obviously unhappy so you end up with a society where it's incredibly up with a society where it's incredibly up with a society where it's incredibly Successful by about 100 BC but almost Successful by about 100 BC but almost Successful by about 100 BC but almost every group that composes it feels like every group that composes it feels like every group that composes it feels like I haven't shared in the benefits of I haven't shared in the benefits of I haven't shared in the benefits of what's happened or I've been exploited what's happened or I've been exploited what's happened or I've been exploited by it so they all end up intensely by it so they all end up intensely by it so they all end up intensely unhappy and the next 100-year period unhappy and the next 100-year period unhappy and the next 100-year period from 133 to 31 BC is called the late

from 133 to 31 BC is called the late from 133 to 31 BC is called the late Roman Republic and it's a time of nearly Roman Republic and it's a time of nearly Roman Republic and it's a time of nearly constant internal strife ultimately constant internal strife ultimately constant internal strife ultimately culminating in multiple rounds of Civil culminating in multiple rounds of Civil culminating in multiple rounds of Civil War so Roman society literally breaks War so Roman society literally breaks War so Roman society literally breaks apart turns on itself and and goes to apart turns on itself and and goes to apart turns on itself and and goes to war with itself over not equitably war with itself over not equitably war with itself over not equitably sharing the benefits of conquest and of sharing the benefits of conquest and of sharing the benefits of conquest and of vempire so it's it's it's a lesson about vempire so it's it's it's a lesson about vempire so it's it's it's a lesson about not sharing the benefits of something in not sharing the benefits of something in not sharing the benefits of something in a society but concentrating it in one a society but concentrating it in one a society but concentrating it in one little group and the other thing that little group and the other thing that little group and the other thing that happens is among the aristocrats they happens is among the aristocrats they happens is among the aristocrats they start to get more and more ambitious so start to get more and more ambitious so start to get more and more ambitious so in the past there was a lot of ideology in the past there was a lot of ideology in the past there was a lot of ideology of the state is more important than the of the state is more important than the of the state is more important than the person if you were a little Roman kid person if you were a little Roman kid person if you were a little Roman kid you have been told these stories of you have been told these stories of you have been told these stories of Roman Heroes and they're all about Roman Heroes and they're all about Roman Heroes and they're all about self-sacrifice putting the state before self-sacrifice putting the state before self-sacrifice putting the state before you about modesty about these sort of you about modesty about these sort of you about modesty about these sort of you know values well by the late you know values well by the late you know values well by the late Republic you have a succession of strong Republic you have a succession of strong Republic you have a succession of strong men uh and it it is a chain so it goes men uh and it it is a chain so it goes men uh and it it is a chain so it goes you know Marius Sully pompy Julius you know Marius Sully pompy Julius you know Marius Sully pompy Julius Caesar where each one pushes the Caesar where each one pushes the Caesar where each one pushes the boundaries of the Roman Republic a boundaries of the Roman Republic a boundaries of the Roman Republic a little bit pushes at the structures of little bit pushes at the structures of little bit pushes at the structures of the institutions of the Republic and the institutions of the Republic and the institutions of the Republic and their motiv ated by personal gain their motiv ated by personal gain their motiv ated by personal gain they're putting themselves above the they're putting themselves above the they're putting themselves above the state so at the same time you have lots state so at the same time you have lots state so at the same time you have lots of groups unhappy in society and you get of groups unhappy in society and you get of groups unhappy in society and you get these strong men who are now undermining these strong men who are now undermining these strong men who are now undermining the institutions chipping away at the the institutions chipping away at the the institutions chipping away at the things that have been shared uh things things that have been shared uh things things that have been shared uh things holding the state together and in the

holding the state together and in the holding the state together and in the end they just become so ambitious end they just become so ambitious end they just become so ambitious they're like I don't care about the they're like I don't care about the they're like I don't care about the state I'm going to try and make myself state I'm going to try and make myself state I'm going to try and make myself ruler of Rome so I mean this is going to ruler of Rome so I mean this is going to ruler of Rome so I mean this is going to culminate obviously in Julius Caesar who culminate obviously in Julius Caesar who culminate obviously in Julius Caesar who does succeed in making himself dictator does succeed in making himself dictator does succeed in making himself dictator for life of the Roman Republic which is for life of the Roman Republic which is for life of the Roman Republic which is tantamount to King and he gets tantamount to King and he gets tantamount to King and he gets assassinated for it but he's the end assassinated for it but he's the end assassinated for it but he's the end point of this progression of people who point of this progression of people who point of this progression of people who uh really undermine the institutions the uh really undermine the institutions the uh really undermine the institutions the Republic through their own personal Republic through their own personal Republic through their own personal greed so the resentment boils and boils greed so the resentment boils and boils greed so the resentment boils and boils and boils and there's this person that and boils and there's this person that and boils and there's this person that puts themselves and they exploit it puts themselves and they exploit it puts themselves and they exploit it they're demagogues they exploit it but they're demagogues they exploit it but they're demagogues they exploit it but Caesar puts himself above the state Caesar puts himself above the state Caesar puts himself above the state and that I guess the the Roman people and that I guess the the Roman people and that I guess the the Roman people also hate well I mean it's it's a love also hate well I mean it's it's a love also hate well I mean it's it's a love hate because Caesar is very successful hate because Caesar is very successful hate because Caesar is very successful at playing to the Roman people so he at playing to the Roman people so he at playing to the Roman people so he becomes their hero where he says you becomes their hero where he says you becomes their hero where he says you know I'll be your Champion against the know I'll be your Champion against the know I'll be your Champion against the state who doesn't care about you you state who doesn't care about you you state who doesn't care about you you know so Caesar will do things where know so Caesar will do things where know so Caesar will do things where he'll put on big shows for the people um he'll put on big shows for the people um he'll put on big shows for the people um and it's cynical I mean he's doing this and it's cynical I mean he's doing this and it's cynical I mean he's doing this to further his own political power but to further his own political power but to further his own political power but he's presenting himself as a a populist he's presenting himself as a a populist he's presenting himself as a a populist in essence um even though he aspires to in essence um even though he aspires to in essence um even though he aspires to be a dictator right um but it's a way of be a dictator right um but it's a way of be a dictator right um but it's a way of winning the people's support because winning the people's support because winning the people's support because that's a tool for him and his struggle that's a tool for him and his struggle that's a tool for him and his struggle with other Aristocrats so a uh dictator with other Aristocrats so a uh dictator with other Aristocrats so a uh dictator in populist clothing yes uh so but he in populist clothing yes uh so but he in populist clothing yes uh so but he get went convenient other times he play get went convenient other times he play get went convenient other times he play to the aristocracy uh and when he gets

to the aristocracy uh and when he gets to the aristocracy uh and when he gets assassinated another civil war explodes assassinated another civil war explodes assassinated another civil war explodes that's an interesting moment because all that's an interesting moment because all that's an interesting moment because all these things have been leading up to these things have been leading up to these things have been leading up to Caesar and it really is a chain of men Caesar and it really is a chain of men Caesar and it really is a chain of men so it starts with this guy Marius who is so it starts with this guy Marius who is so it starts with this guy Marius who is one of the first to start making armies one of the first to start making armies one of the first to start making armies loyal to him rather than to to the state loyal to him rather than to to the state loyal to him rather than to to the state that's a step in the wrong direction that's a step in the wrong direction that's a step in the wrong direction right the Army should be loyal to the to right the Army should be loyal to the to right the Army should be loyal to the to the state not to an individual General the state not to an individual General the state not to an individual General they shouldn't look for him to rewards they shouldn't look for him to rewards they shouldn't look for him to rewards Marius kind of breaks that makes a Marius kind of breaks that makes a Marius kind of breaks that makes a precedent one of his proteges is a guy precedent one of his proteges is a guy precedent one of his proteges is a guy named suah suah comes along and he ends named suah suah comes along and he ends named suah suah comes along and he ends up marching on Rome with his army and up marching on Rome with his army and up marching on Rome with his army and taking it over and he says well I'm just taking it over and he says well I'm just taking it over and he says well I'm just doing it for the good of the state but doing it for the good of the state but doing it for the good of the state but that's another prent now you've had that's another prent now you've had that's another prent now you've had someone attacking their own Capital City someone attacking their own Capital City someone attacking their own Capital City even if they say they're doing it for even if they say they're doing it for even if they say they're doing it for the right reasons um then pompy comes the right reasons um then pompy comes the right reasons um then pompy comes along and pompy just breaks all kinds of along and pompy just breaks all kinds of along and pompy just breaks all kinds of things he starts holding offices when things he starts holding offices when things he starts holding offices when he's too young to do so uh he raises he's too young to do so uh he raises he's too young to do so uh he raises personal armies from his own wealth um personal armies from his own wealth um personal armies from his own wealth um he disobeys commands he manipulates he disobeys commands he manipulates he disobeys commands he manipulates commands he does all kinds of stuff but commands he does all kinds of stuff but commands he does all kinds of stuff but in the end he sides with the Senate when in the end he sides with the Senate when in the end he sides with the Senate when when sort of forced and finally Caesar when sort of forced and finally Caesar when sort of forced and finally Caesar comes along and Caesar's just comes along and Caesar's just comes along and Caesar's just shamelessly no it's about me I'm I'm shamelessly no it's about me I'm I'm shamelessly no it's about me I'm I'm going to push it and he is the one who going to push it and he is the one who going to push it and he is the one who wins a civil war against the state and wins a civil war against the state and wins a civil war against the state and pompy takes over Rome and says now I'm pompy takes over Rome and says now I'm pompy takes over Rome and says now I'm going to be dictator um and dictator is going to be dictator um and dictator is going to be dictator um and dictator is a traditional office in the Roman state a traditional office in the Roman state a traditional office in the Roman state but dictators were limited to no more but dictators were limited to no more but dictators were limited to no more than six months in power and Caesar says than six months in power and Caesar says than six months in power and Caesar says well I'll be dictator for life which of well I'll be dictator for life which of well I'll be dictator for life which of course is King he gets killed for it so

course is King he gets killed for it so course is King he gets killed for it so Caesar succeeded in taking over the Caesar succeeded in taking over the Caesar succeeded in taking over the state as one man but he couldn't solve state as one man but he couldn't solve state as one man but he couldn't solve the problem how do you rule Rome as one the problem how do you rule Rome as one the problem how do you rule Rome as one person and not get killed for for person and not get killed for for person and not get killed for for looking like a king that's the The looking like a king that's the The looking like a king that's the The Dilemma the Riddle That Caesar leaves Dilemma the Riddle That Caesar leaves Dilemma the Riddle That Caesar leaves behind him he did it he sees power as behind him he did it he sees power as behind him he did it he sees power as one guy but how do you stay alive how do one guy but how do you stay alive how do one guy but how do you stay alive how do you come up with something that the you come up with something that the you come up with something that the people will accept and Caesar did some people will accept and Caesar did some people will accept and Caesar did some other things which are bad he was other things which are bad he was other things which are bad he was arrogant he didn't even pretend that the arrogant he didn't even pretend that the arrogant he didn't even pretend that the Senate were uh his equals he just kind Senate were uh his equals he just kind Senate were uh his equals he just kind of you know railroaded them around he of you know railroaded them around he of you know railroaded them around he didn't resp ECT them you know he named a didn't resp ECT them you know he named a didn't resp ECT them you know he named a month after himself July Julius um he month after himself July Julius um he month after himself July Julius um he did egotistical things so that pissed did egotistical things so that pissed did egotistical things so that pissed people off they didn't like it and when people off they didn't like it and when people off they didn't like it and when Caesar dies it's this interesting moment Caesar dies it's this interesting moment Caesar dies it's this interesting moment the Republic's sort of dead by then it's the Republic's sort of dead by then it's the Republic's sort of dead by then it's you're going to have a hard time you're going to have a hard time you're going to have a hard time Reviving it you you've broken too many Reviving it you you've broken too many Reviving it you you've broken too many precedents but there's a power vacuum precedents but there's a power vacuum precedents but there's a power vacuum now Caesar's gone what's going to happen now Caesar's gone what's going to happen now Caesar's gone what's going to happen next and you have a whole group of next and you have a whole group of next and you have a whole group of people who want to be the next Caesar so people who want to be the next Caesar so people who want to be the next Caesar so the most obvious is Mark Anthony who is the most obvious is Mark Anthony who is the most obvious is Mark Anthony who is Caesar's right-hand man his Lieutenant Caesar's right-hand man his Lieutenant Caesar's right-hand man his Lieutenant he's a very good General he's very he's a very good General he's very he's a very good General he's very charismatic everybody kind of expects charismatic everybody kind of expects charismatic everybody kind of expects Mark Anthony to just become the next Mark Anthony to just become the next Mark Anthony to just become the next Caesar but there's also another of Caesar but there's also another of Caesar but there's also another of Caesar's lieutenants a guy named lepidus Caesar's lieutenants a guy named lepidus Caesar's lieutenants a guy named lepidus sort of like Anthony but not quite as sort of like Anthony but not quite as sort of like Anthony but not quite as great as him there's the Senate itself great as him there's the Senate itself great as him there's the Senate itself which wants to reassert its power kind which wants to reassert its power kind which wants to reassert its power kind of become the dominant force in Rome of become the dominant force in Rome of become the dominant force in Rome again there's the Assassins who killed again there's the Assassins who killed again there's the Assassins who killed Caesar uh led by Brutus and another guy

Caesar uh led by Brutus and another guy Caesar uh led by Brutus and another guy cases they now want to seize control and cases they now want to seize control and cases they now want to seize control and finally there's a really weird Darkhorse finally there's a really weird Darkhorse finally there's a really weird Darkhorse camp candidate to fill this power vacuum camp candidate to fill this power vacuum camp candidate to fill this power vacuum and that's Julius Caesar's Grand nephew and that's Julius Caesar's Grand nephew and that's Julius Caesar's Grand nephew who at the time is a 17-year-old kid who at the time is a 17-year-old kid who at the time is a 17-year-old kid named named named Octavian who cares he's nobody Octavian who cares he's nobody Octavian who cares he's nobody absolutely nobody but when Caesar's will absolutely nobody but when Caesar's will absolutely nobody but when Caesar's will is opened after his death so poly read is opened after his death so poly read is opened after his death so poly read in his will Caesar poly and this is a in his will Caesar poly and this is a in his will Caesar poly and this is a little weird POS humously adopts little weird POS humously adopts little weird POS humously adopts Octavian as his son now again who cares Octavian as his son now again who cares Octavian as his son now again who cares Anthony get the troops Anthony gets the Anthony get the troops Anthony gets the Anthony get the troops Anthony gets the money the other people get everything money the other people get everything money the other people get everything what does Octavian get he gets to now what does Octavian get he gets to now what does Octavian get he gets to now rename himself gas Julius Caesar rename himself gas Julius Caesar rename himself gas Julius Caesar octavianus who cares well around the octavianus who cares well around the octavianus who cares well around the Mediterranean there's about 12 Legions Mediterranean there's about 12 Legions Mediterranean there's about 12 Legions full of hardened soldiers who are just full of hardened soldiers who are just full of hardened soldiers who are just kind of used to following a guy named kind of used to following a guy named kind of used to following a guy named guas Julius Caesar and even though it's guas Julius Caesar and even though it's guas Julius Caesar and even though it's not quite logical this 18-year-old he's not quite logical this 18-year-old he's not quite logical this 18-year-old he's now 18-year-old kid inherits an army now 18-year-old kid inherits an army now 18-year-old kid inherits an army overnight so he comes a player in this overnight so he comes a player in this overnight so he comes a player in this game for power and the next 30 40 years game for power and the next 30 40 years game for power and the next 30 40 years is going to be those groups all Ving is going to be those groups all Ving is going to be those groups all Ving with one another there's another with one another there's another with one another there's another candidate to pompy's son pompy was candidate to pompy's son pompy was candidate to pompy's son pompy was Caesar's great rival he has a couple Caesar's great rival he has a couple Caesar's great rival he has a couple sons and one of them a guy named sexus sons and one of them a guy named sexus sons and one of them a guy named sexus pompy uh basically becomes a warlord who pompy uh basically becomes a warlord who pompy uh basically becomes a warlord who seizes control of Sicily one of the seizes control of Sicily one of the seizes control of Sicily one of the richest provinces has a whole Navy he's richest provinces has a whole Navy he's richest provinces has a whole Navy he's vying to be one of these successors too vying to be one of these successors too vying to be one of these successors too so for the next 40 years it's as you

so for the next 40 years it's as you so for the next 40 years it's as you said another civil war to see which guy said another civil war to see which guy said another civil war to see which guy Emer verges uh is it going to be the Emer verges uh is it going to be the Emer verges uh is it going to be the Senate is it going to be the Assassins Senate is it going to be the Assassins Senate is it going to be the Assassins is it going to be Anthony is it going to is it going to be Anthony is it going to is it going to be Anthony is it going to be lepidus is it going to be sexist be lepidus is it going to be sexist be lepidus is it going to be sexist pompy is it going to be Octavian so now pompy is it going to be Octavian so now pompy is it going to be Octavian so now looking back at all that history it just looking back at all that history it just looking back at all that history it just feels like history turns on so many feels like history turns on so many feels like history turns on so many interesting accidents because Octavian interesting accidents because Octavian interesting accidents because Octavian later renamed Augustus turned out to be later renamed Augustus turned out to be later renamed Augustus turned out to be actually dep depends how you define good actually dep depends how you define good actually dep depends how you define good but a good king/ but a good king/ but a good king/ Emperor different than Caesar in terms Emperor different than Caesar in terms Emperor different than Caesar in terms of humility at least being able to play of humility at least being able to play of humility at least being able to play uh not to piss off everybody MH uh but uh not to piss off everybody MH uh but uh not to piss off everybody MH uh but like it could have been so many other like it could have been so many other like it could have been so many other people it could that that could have people it could that that could have people it could that that could have been the fall of Rome that so it's it's been the fall of Rome that so it's it's been the fall of Rome that so it's it's a fascinating little turn of History a fascinating little turn of History a fascinating little turn of History maybe Caesar saw something in this maybe Caesar saw something in this maybe Caesar saw something in this individual it's not an accident think he individual it's not an accident think he individual it's not an accident think he was in the will yeah it's it's I mean was in the will yeah it's it's I mean was in the will yeah it's it's I mean Caesar clearly did see something in him Caesar clearly did see something in him Caesar clearly did see something in him and Octavian I mean to cut to the end is and Octavian I mean to cut to the end is and Octavian I mean to cut to the end is the one who emerges from all that as the the one who emerges from all that as the the one who emerges from all that as the Victor we can talk about how he does it Victor we can talk about how he does it Victor we can talk about how he does it but he's the one who s of ends up in the but he's the one who s of ends up in the but he's the one who s of ends up in the same position as Caesar it takes him 30 same position as Caesar it takes him 30 same position as Caesar it takes him 30 years but he defeats all the foes he's years but he defeats all the foes he's years but he defeats all the foes he's the so guy he now faces Caesar's riddle the so guy he now faces Caesar's riddle the so guy he now faces Caesar's riddle how do you rule Rome as one guy and not how do you rule Rome as one guy and not how do you rule Rome as one guy and not get killed and Octavian what makes him get killed and Octavian what makes him get killed and Octavian what makes him stand out what makes him fascinating to stand out what makes him fascinating to stand out what makes him fascinating to me is he wasn't a good general fact he me is he wasn't a good general fact he me is he wasn't a good general fact he was a terrible General he he lost almost was a terrible General he he lost almost was a terrible General he he lost almost every battle he commanded but what he is every battle he commanded but what he is every battle he commanded but what he is is he's politically Savvy and he's very

is he's politically Savvy and he's very is he's politically Savvy and he's very good at what today we would call good at what today we would call good at what today we would call manipulation of your Public Image and manipulation of your Public Image and manipulation of your Public Image and propaganda so he basically uh defeats propaganda so he basically uh defeats propaganda so he basically uh defeats Mark Anthony partially by waging a Mark Anthony partially by waging a Mark Anthony partially by waging a propaganda war against him I mean propaganda war against him I mean propaganda war against him I mean Anthony starts out as a legitimate rival Anthony starts out as a legitimate rival Anthony starts out as a legitimate rival and they're two Romans vying for power and they're two Romans vying for power and they're two Romans vying for power at the end of this war propaganda War at the end of this war propaganda War at the end of this war propaganda War Octavian has managed to portray Anthony Octavian has managed to portray Anthony Octavian has managed to portray Anthony as a foreign aggressor allied with an as a foreign aggressor allied with an as a foreign aggressor allied with an enemy king or queen in this case enemy king or queen in this case enemy king or queen in this case Cleopatra and who is an official enemy Cleopatra and who is an official enemy Cleopatra and who is an official enemy of the Roman State and that's all of the Roman State and that's all of the Roman State and that's all propaganda so he takes what's a Civil propaganda so he takes what's a Civil propaganda so he takes what's a Civil War and makes it look like a war against War and makes it look like a war against War and makes it look like a war against a foreign enemy and when Octavian a foreign enemy and when Octavian a foreign enemy and when Octavian becomes the soul ruler he looks at what becomes the soul ruler he looks at what becomes the soul ruler he looks at what Caesar did wrong and he very carefully Caesar did wrong and he very carefully Caesar did wrong and he very carefully avoids the same mistakes so the first avoids the same mistakes so the first avoids the same mistakes so the first thing is just how he lives his life he's thing is just how he lives his life he's thing is just how he lives his life he's very modest he lives in an ordinary very modest he lives in an ordinary very modest he lives in an ordinary house like other Aristocrats he wears house like other Aristocrats he wears house like other Aristocrats he wears just a plain toeg gun nothing fancy he's just a plain toeg gun nothing fancy he's just a plain toeg gun nothing fancy he's respectful to the Senate he treats them respectful to the Senate he treats them respectful to the Senate he treats them with respect he eats simple Foods I mean with respect he eats simple Foods I mean with respect he eats simple Foods I mean he's someone who cared about the reality he's someone who cared about the reality he's someone who cared about the reality of power not the external trappings of power not the external trappings of power not the external trappings clearly there's some rulers who love I clearly there's some rulers who love I clearly there's some rulers who love I want to dress in fancy clothes I want to want to dress in fancy clothes I want to want to dress in fancy clothes I want to be surrounded by gold everything this is be surrounded by gold everything this is be surrounded by gold everything this is what makes me feel good octavian's the what makes me feel good octavian's the what makes me feel good octavian's the opposite he doesn't care about any that opposite he doesn't care about any that opposite he doesn't care about any that he wants real power and then the other he wants real power and then the other he wants real power and then the other thing is how is he going to rule Rome thing is how is he going to rule Rome thing is how is he going to rule Rome without looking like a king and his without looking like a king and his without looking like a king and his solution to this is brilliant he solution to this is brilliant he solution to this is brilliant he basically pretends to resign from all

basically pretends to resign from all basically pretends to resign from all his public offices not pretends he does his public offices not pretends he does his public offices not pretends he does so he holds no official office but what so he holds no official office but what so he holds no official office but what he does is he manipulates so that the he does is he manipulates so that the he does is he manipulates so that the Roman senate votes him the powers of the Roman senate votes him the powers of the Roman senate votes him the powers of the key Roman offices but not the office key Roman offices but not the office key Roman offices but not the office itself so the highest office in the itself so the highest office in the itself so the highest office in the Roman state is the consul consuls have Roman state is the consul consuls have Roman state is the consul consuls have the power to command armies do all sorts the power to command armies do all sorts the power to command armies do all sorts of things uh run meetings the Senate of things uh run meetings the Senate of things uh run meetings the Senate Octavian gets voted the powers of a Octavian gets voted the powers of a Octavian gets voted the powers of a Consul so he can command armies control Consul so he can command armies control Consul so he can command armies control meent do all this but he's not one of meent do all this but he's not one of meent do all this but he's not one of the two consules of elected for every the two consules of elected for every the two consules of elected for every year so he's just kind of floating or year so he's just kind of floating or year so he's just kind of floating or drifting off to the side of the Roman drifting off to the side of the Roman drifting off to the side of the Roman government um he gets the power of a government um he gets the power of a government um he gets the power of a Tribune which has all sorts of powers he Tribune which has all sorts of powers he Tribune which has all sorts of powers he can veto anything he wants but he's not can veto anything he wants but he's not can veto anything he wants but he's not one of the tribunes elected for any one one of the tribunes elected for any one one of the tribunes elected for any one year so the state the Republic appears year so the state the Republic appears year so the state the Republic appears to continue as it always has each year to continue as it always has each year to continue as it always has each year they hold the same elections they elect they hold the same elections they elect they hold the same elections they elect the same number of people notionally the same number of people notionally the same number of people notionally those people are in charge but floating those people are in charge but floating those people are in charge but floating off to the side you have this guy off to the side you have this guy off to the side you have this guy Octavian who has equivalent power not Octavian who has equivalent power not Octavian who has equivalent power not just to any one magistrate or official just to any one magistrate or official just to any one magistrate or official but to all of them so at any moment he but to all of them so at any moment he but to all of them so at any moment he can just sort of pop up and say no let's can just sort of pop up and say no let's can just sort of pop up and say no let's not do this let's do something else and not do this let's do something else and not do this let's do something else and he also keeps the Army under his he also keeps the Army under his he also keeps the Army under his personal control isn't this a personal control isn't this a personal control isn't this a fascinating story like what do you think fascinating story like what do you think fascinating story like what do you think is a psychology of Augustus of Octavian is a psychology of Augustus of Octavian is a psychology of Augustus of Octavian yeah and he later Chang his name to yeah and he later Chang his name to yeah and he later Chang his name to Augustus when he sort of becomes first Augustus when he sort of becomes first Augustus when he sort of becomes first Amper and the other thing he does is he Amper and the other thing he does is he Amper and the other thing he does is he hides his power behind all these hides his power behind all these hides his power behind all these different names so you know Cesar called different names so you know Cesar called different names so you know Cesar called himself dictator for life right so himself dictator for life right so himself dictator for life right so everybody knew what he was Octavian we

everybody knew what he was Octavian we everybody knew what he was Octavian we we even have a source that talks about we even have a source that talks about we even have a source that talks about he says he wondered what to call himself he says he wondered what to call himself he says he wondered what to call himself do I call myself King no can't do that do I call myself King no can't do that do I call myself King no can't do that dictator for life no way maybe I'll call dictator for life no way maybe I'll call dictator for life no way maybe I'll call myself Romulus that was the found of r myself Romulus that was the found of r myself Romulus that was the found of r no no Romulus was a king and finally a no no Romulus was a king and finally a no no Romulus was a king and finally a solution is he takes a bunch of titles solution is he takes a bunch of titles solution is he takes a bunch of titles which are all which are all which are all ambiguous and no one of them sounds that ambiguous and no one of them sounds that ambiguous and no one of them sounds that impressive but collectively they are so impressive but collectively they are so impressive but collectively they are so for example one of the titles he gets is for example one of the titles he gets is for example one of the titles he gets is Augustus which is something tied to Augustus which is something tied to Augustus which is something tied to Roman religion something that is a Roman religion something that is a Roman religion something that is a Augustus in Latin has two possible Augustus in Latin has two possible Augustus in Latin has two possible meanings one is uh someone who is meanings one is uh someone who is meanings one is uh someone who is Augustus is very Pious they respect the Augustus is very Pious they respect the Augustus is very Pious they respect the gods deeply well that sounds nice gods deeply well that sounds nice gods deeply well that sounds nice doesn't it well on the other hand an doesn't it well on the other hand an doesn't it well on the other hand an alternative me for Augustus is something alternative me for Augustus is something alternative me for Augustus is something that is itself that is itself that is itself Divine so is he just a deeply religious Divine so is he just a deeply religious Divine so is he just a deeply religious Pious person or is he himself sacred Pious person or is he himself sacred Pious person or is he himself sacred there's that ambiguity um he calls there's that ambiguity um he calls there's that ambiguity um he calls himself prps which means First himself prps which means First himself prps which means First Citizen okay what the hell does that Citizen okay what the hell does that Citizen okay what the hell does that that mean am I a citizen just like that mean am I a citizen just like that mean am I a citizen just like everybody else or am I the first citizen everybody else or am I the first citizen everybody else or am I the first citizen which means I'm superior to all the which means I'm superior to all the which means I'm superior to all the others so every title he takes has this others so every title he takes has this others so every title he takes has this weird ambiguity he calls himself weird ambiguity he calls himself weird ambiguity he calls himself imperator which is traditionally imperator which is traditionally imperator which is traditionally something that soldiers shout at a something that soldiers shout at a something that soldiers shout at a Victorious General who's won a battle Victorious General who's won a battle Victorious General who's won a battle and now he takes this as a permanent and now he takes this as a permanent and now he takes this as a permanent title so it implies he's a good good title so it implies he's a good good title so it implies he's a good good General and by the way it's from General and by the way it's from General and by the way it's from emperator that we get the word Emperor emperator that we get the word Emperor emperator that we get the word Emperor uh an Empire so originally it's it's a uh an Empire so originally it's it's a uh an Empire so originally it's it's a military title a spontaneous military

military title a spontaneous military military title a spontaneous military acclamation it's just fascinating that acclamation it's just fascinating that acclamation it's just fascinating that he figured out a way through Public he figured out a way through Public he figured out a way through Public Image through Image through Image through branding branding branding to uh gain power maintain power and to uh gain power maintain power and to uh gain power maintain power and still pacify the the still pacify the the still pacify the the boiling boiling boiling turmoil that that led to the Civil Wars turmoil that that led to the Civil Wars turmoil that that led to the Civil Wars yeah well two things I think work in his yeah well two things I think work in his yeah well two things I think work in his favor as well one is he brings peace and favor as well one is he brings peace and favor as well one is he brings peace and stability so by this point the Romans stability so by this point the Romans stability so by this point the Romans have experienced 100 years almost of have experienced 100 years almost of have experienced 100 years almost of Civil War and Chaos so at that point you Civil War and Chaos so at that point you Civil War and Chaos so at that point you know your family maybe you had family know your family maybe you had family know your family maybe you had family members die in these wars have been members die in these wars have been members die in these wars have been prescribed your property has been prescribed your property has been prescribed your property has been confiscated who knows what and here's a confiscated who knows what and here's a confiscated who knows what and here's a guy who brings peace and stability and guy who brings peace and stability and guy who brings peace and stability and doesn't seem oppressive or cruel or doesn't seem oppressive or cruel or doesn't seem oppressive or cruel or whatever so you're like okay fine I I whatever so you're like okay fine I I whatever so you're like okay fine I I don't care maybe he's killed the don't care maybe he's killed the don't care maybe he's killed the Republic but at least we're not dying in Republic but at least we're not dying in Republic but at least we're not dying in the streets anymore so that that's a big the streets anymore so that that's a big the streets anymore so that that's a big thing he does and secondly even though C thing he does and secondly even though C thing he does and secondly even though C always seemed kind of sickly his always seemed kind of sickly his always seemed kind of sickly his Constitution he lives forever um he Constitution he lives forever um he Constitution he lives forever um he rules for like 50 years and by the time rules for like 50 years and by the time rules for like 50 years and by the time he dies there's no one literally almost he dies there's no one literally almost he dies there's no one literally almost Left Alive who can remember the Left Alive who can remember the Left Alive who can remember the Republic so at that point by the time he Republic so at that point by the time he Republic so at that point by the time he dies this is the only system we know dies this is the only system we know dies this is the only system we know that's another just fascinating accident that's another just fascinating accident that's another just fascinating accident of History because you as we talked of History because you as we talked of History because you as we talked about with Alexander the Great who knows about with Alexander the Great who knows about with Alexander the Great who knows if he lived for another 40 if he lived for another 40 if he lived for another 40 years if that if if over time the people

years if that if if over time the people years if that if if over time the people that hate the new thing die off and then that hate the new thing die off and then that hate the new thing die off and then their sons and come into their sons and come into their sons and come into power um that could be a very different power um that could be a very different power um that could be a very different story maybe we'll be talking about the story maybe we'll be talking about the story maybe we'll be talking about the to fate but it's hugely INF flench on to fate but it's hugely INF flench on to fate but it's hugely INF flench on History you mentioned Cleopatra if we go History you mentioned Cleopatra if we go History you mentioned Cleopatra if we go back to that what role did she play back to that what role did she play back to that what role did she play another fascinating human being another fascinating human being another fascinating human being Cleopatra is interesting I mean she was Cleopatra is interesting I mean she was Cleopatra is interesting I mean she was a direct descendant of one of Alexander a direct descendant of one of Alexander a direct descendant of one of Alexander the Great's generals toy when the Great's generals toy when the Great's generals toy when Alexander's Empire had broken up toy Alexander's Empire had broken up toy Alexander's Empire had broken up toy this General had seized control of Egypt this General had seized control of Egypt this General had seized control of Egypt made it his kingdom and she 10 made it his kingdom and she 10 made it his kingdom and she 10 Generations later is a descendant of Generations later is a descendant of Generations later is a descendant of this Macedonian General so Egypt had this Macedonian General so Egypt had this Macedonian General so Egypt had been ruled by in essence foreigners been ruled by in essence foreigners been ruled by in essence foreigners these Macedonian dynasty of kings and these Macedonian dynasty of kings and these Macedonian dynasty of kings and often they literally were ruled by uh often they literally were ruled by uh often they literally were ruled by uh the same Dynasty because they had a the same Dynasty because they had a the same Dynasty because they had a habit of marrying Brothers to sisters um habit of marrying Brothers to sisters um habit of marrying Brothers to sisters um and Cleopatra is in fact originally and Cleopatra is in fact originally and Cleopatra is in fact originally married to her younger brother um but married to her younger brother um but married to her younger brother um but despite that she seems to have intensely despite that she seems to have intensely despite that she seems to have intensely identified with Egypt um in fact she identified with Egypt um in fact she identified with Egypt um in fact she seems to have been the first one of all seems to have been the first one of all seems to have been the first one of all these toy kings who actually bothered to these toy kings who actually bothered to these toy kings who actually bothered to learn to speak Egyptian um so she seemed learn to speak Egyptian um so she seemed learn to speak Egyptian um so she seemed to really have cared about Egypt uh as to really have cared about Egypt uh as to really have cared about Egypt uh as well and she was clearly very smart um well and she was clearly very smart um well and she was clearly very smart um uh very clever and so she's living at a uh very clever and so she's living at a uh very clever and so she's living at a time during the late Republic when Rome time during the late Republic when Rome time during the late Republic when Rome is having all these Civil Wars is having all these Civil Wars is having all these Civil Wars and Egypt is really the last big and Egypt is really the last big and Egypt is really the last big independent Kingdom left around the

independent Kingdom left around the independent Kingdom left around the shores of the Mediterranean everything shores of the Mediterranean everything shores of the Mediterranean everything else has been conquered by Rome so she else has been conquered by Rome so she else has been conquered by Rome so she is in this very precarious position is in this very precarious position is in this very precarious position where clearly she wants to maintain where clearly she wants to maintain where clearly she wants to maintain Egyptian independence but Rome is this Egyptian independence but Rome is this Egyptian independence but Rome is this Juggernaut that's rolling over Juggernaut that's rolling over Juggernaut that's rolling over everything and she ends up meeting everything and she ends up meeting everything and she ends up meeting Julius Caesar when Caesar uh comes to Julius Caesar when Caesar uh comes to Julius Caesar when Caesar uh comes to Egypt chasing pompy his great rival Egypt chasing pompy his great rival Egypt chasing pompy his great rival after he defeats pompy pompy runs to after he defeats pompy pompy runs to after he defeats pompy pompy runs to Egypt thinking he'll find Sanctuary Egypt thinking he'll find Sanctuary Egypt thinking he'll find Sanctuary there and the Egyptians kill and chop there and the Egyptians kill and chop there and the Egyptians kill and chop off his head and when Caesar lands they off his head and when Caesar lands they off his head and when Caesar lands they hand it to him and say here have a hand it to him and say here have a hand it to him and say here have a present um and she of course famously present um and she of course famously present um and she of course famously ends up having a love affair with Caesar ends up having a love affair with Caesar ends up having a love affair with Caesar was that a genuine love or was she just was that a genuine love or was she just was that a genuine love or was she just sort of you know using this as a way to sort of you know using this as a way to sort of you know using this as a way to try and keep Egypt independent to give try and keep Egypt independent to give try and keep Egypt independent to give it some status we don't know um after it some status we don't know um after it some status we don't know um after she does have several kids with Caesar she does have several kids with Caesar she does have several kids with Caesar um after Caesar's assassinated and the um after Caesar's assassinated and the um after Caesar's assassinated and the Roman world is having another civil war Roman world is having another civil war Roman world is having another civil war between Octavian and Mark Anthony Mark between Octavian and Mark Anthony Mark between Octavian and Mark Anthony Mark Anthony is faing himself in the East he Anthony is faing himself in the East he Anthony is faing himself in the East he meets Cleopatra and he has a big love meets Cleopatra and he has a big love meets Cleopatra and he has a big love affair with her and this one seems affair with her and this one seems affair with her and this one seems pretty genuine um I mean Anthony and pretty genuine um I mean Anthony and pretty genuine um I mean Anthony and Cleopatra there's a lot of stories about Cleopatra there's a lot of stories about Cleopatra there's a lot of stories about them kind of partying together they like them kind of partying together they like them kind of partying together they like to sort of a cosplay and dress up as to sort of a cosplay and dress up as to sort of a cosplay and dress up as different gods so Cleopatra would dress different gods so Cleopatra would dress different gods so Cleopatra would dress up as the Goddess Isis and Anthony would up as the Goddess Isis and Anthony would up as the Goddess Isis and Anthony would dress up as the God dionis and a leopard dress up as the God dionis and a leopard dress up as the God dionis and a leopard skin and they'd have these big parties skin and they'd have these big parties skin and they'd have these big parties and stuff and they end up together and stuff and they end up together and stuff and they end up together fighting against Octavian and in the end fighting against Octavian and in the end fighting against Octavian and in the end they're defeated uh by Octavian and uh they're defeated uh by Octavian and uh they're defeated uh by Octavian and uh Anthony commits suicide

Anthony commits suicide Anthony commits suicide Cleopatra there's differing accounts of Cleopatra there's differing accounts of Cleopatra there's differing accounts of her death she may have also killed her death she may have also killed her death she may have also killed herself or she may actually have been herself or she may actually have been herself or she may actually have been killed by Octavian um to just get her killed by Octavian um to just get her killed by Octavian um to just get her out of the way um but she's an out of the way um but she's an out of the way um but she's an interesting figure because she was interesting figure because she was interesting figure because she was clearly a very smart uh woman who clearly a very smart uh woman who clearly a very smart uh woman who managed to keep Egypt uh alive as an managed to keep Egypt uh alive as an managed to keep Egypt uh alive as an independent state she seemed to have independent state she seemed to have independent state she seemed to have actually cared about Egypt uh and actually cared about Egypt uh and actually cared about Egypt uh and identified with it uh and succeeded at a identified with it uh and succeeded at a identified with it uh and succeeded at a time with all these famous people you time with all these famous people you time with all these famous people you know in in being a real kind of mover know in in being a real kind of mover know in in being a real kind of mover and Shaker and a force in in events I and Shaker and a force in in events I and Shaker and a force in in events I mean she's probably one of the most mean she's probably one of the most mean she's probably one of the most influential women in in human influential women in in human influential women in in human history she's certainly again she's history she's certainly again she's history she's certainly again she's someone that her her image is incredibly someone that her her image is incredibly someone that her her image is incredibly important um and I mean one of the important um and I mean one of the important um and I mean one of the interesting things you know the whole interesting things you know the whole interesting things you know the whole question of gender in the Roman world I question of gender in the Roman world I question of gender in the Roman world I mean this gets into Roman sources but of mean this gets into Roman sources but of mean this gets into Roman sources but of course it's it's a heavily course it's it's a heavily course it's it's a heavily male-dominated history and I mean men male-dominated history and I mean men male-dominated history and I mean men and women did not have equal in ancient and women did not have equal in ancient and women did not have equal in ancient Rome it's a male dominated Society it's Rome it's a male dominated Society it's Rome it's a male dominated Society it's misogynist in many ways but what I'm misogynist in many ways but what I'm misogynist in many ways but what I'm constantly struck by is when you start constantly struck by is when you start constantly struck by is when you start again delving into the sources you know again delving into the sources you know again delving into the sources you know you always hear okay you know well there you always hear okay you know well there you always hear okay you know well there was this one woman who was a philosopher was this one woman who was a philosopher was this one woman who was a philosopher and she's an exception to the rule and and she's an exception to the rule and and she's an exception to the rule and yeah okay she's fine and then you start yeah okay she's fine and then you start yeah okay she's fine and then you start looking to oh and there's also 60 other looking to oh and there's also 60 other looking to oh and there's also 60 other female philosophers well is that so much female philosophers well is that so much female philosophers well is that so much an exception anymore or you know an exception anymore or you know an exception anymore or you know Cleopatra is the one Queen she's this Cleopatra is the one Queen she's this Cleopatra is the one Queen she's this strong Queen and then you look in well strong Queen and then you look in well strong Queen and then you look in well there was this other Queen here there there was this other Queen here there there was this other Queen here there was this queen here there was this queen was this queen here there was this queen was this queen here there was this queen here who led armies and here's another here who led armies and here's another here who led armies and here's another one who led armies and again it's like one who led armies and again it's like one who led armies and again it's like well are they exceptions to the rule or well are they exceptions to the rule or well are they exceptions to the rule or is just the history that was written

is just the history that was written is just the history that was written which is written by men a little bit which is written by men a little bit which is written by men a little bit selective in how it portrays them selective in how it portrays them selective in how it portrays them because the sources are all these male because the sources are all these male because the sources are all these male Elites who have very definite ideas Elites who have very definite ideas Elites who have very definite ideas about women you know the conventional about women you know the conventional about women you know the conventional notion has always been that uh you know notion has always been that uh you know notion has always been that uh you know business in the Roman Empire was a male business in the Roman Empire was a male business in the Roman Empire was a male field well but then there's this woman field well but then there's this woman field well but then there's this woman yumak and Pompei who actually had the yumak and Pompei who actually had the yumak and Pompei who actually had the largest building in Pompei right on the largest building in Pompei right on the largest building in Pompei right on the Forum named after her with a giant Forum named after her with a giant Forum named after her with a giant statue over and she was a patron to a statue over and she was a patron to a statue over and she was a patron to a bunch of the most important guilds in bunch of the most important guilds in bunch of the most important guilds in Pompei okay she's the exception to the Pompei okay she's the exception to the Pompei okay she's the exception to the rule oh but then there's these other rule oh but then there's these other rule oh but then there's these other four women we have from Pompei who also four women we have from Pompei who also four women we have from Pompei who also were patrons of guilds and then there's were patrons of guilds and then there's were patrons of guilds and then there's this woman plona Magna and this other this woman plona Magna and this other this woman plona Magna and this other place and she was the most important place and she was the most important place and she was the most important Patron in the town and put up all these Patron in the town and put up all these Patron in the town and put up all these statues so at some point when you start statues so at some point when you start statues so at some point when you start to say well maybe women did play more of to say well maybe women did play more of to say well maybe women did play more of a role but they just haven't been a role but they just haven't been a role but they just haven't been recorded in the sources in the way that recorded in the sources in the way that recorded in the sources in the way that maybe they deserve to be yeah that's a maybe they deserve to be yeah that's a maybe they deserve to be yeah that's a fascinating question is it is it the fascinating question is it is it the fascinating question is it is it the bias of society or is it the bias of the bias of society or is it the bias of the bias of society or is it the bias of the historian the bias of the society the historian the bias of the society the historian the bias of the society the historian is writing about or the bias historian is writing about or the bias historian is writing about or the bias of the actual histor and the bias of the of the actual histor and the bias of the of the actual histor and the bias of the historians who have written history up historians who have written history up historians who have written history up to this point yeah um I I was just to this point yeah um I I was just to this point yeah um I I was just writing a lecture which was about this writing a lecture which was about this writing a lecture which was about this woman Musa who who is a crazy story um woman Musa who who is a crazy story um woman Musa who who is a crazy story um and she ties into Augustus actually and she ties into Augustus actually and she ties into Augustus actually Augustus his biggest diplomatic Triumph Augustus his biggest diplomatic Triumph Augustus his biggest diplomatic Triumph that he boasted about constantly was was that he boasted about constantly was was that he boasted about constantly was was that about 50 years before him uh the that about 50 years before him uh the that about 50 years before him uh the Romans had sent an expedition into Romans had sent an expedition into Romans had sent an expedition into Parthia this neighboring Kingdom led by Parthia this neighboring Kingdom led by Parthia this neighboring Kingdom led by Cassis and they'd gotten wiped out so it

Cassis and they'd gotten wiped out so it Cassis and they'd gotten wiped out so it it's this big disaster military disaster it's this big disaster military disaster it's this big disaster military disaster and the standards of the Roman Legions and the standards of the Roman Legions and the standards of the Roman Legions the Eagles that each Roman legion the Eagles that each Roman legion the Eagles that each Roman legion carried had been captured by the carried had been captured by the carried had been captured by the parthians and this is the most parthians and this is the most parthians and this is the most humiliating thing that can happen to a humiliating thing that can happen to a humiliating thing that can happen to a Roman legion to have its Eagles captured Roman legion to have its Eagles captured Roman legion to have its Eagles captured and Augustus desperately wanted to and Augustus desperately wanted to and Augustus desperately wanted to negotiate with the parthians to get negotiate with the parthians to get negotiate with the parthians to get these Eagles returned okay this was his these Eagles returned okay this was his these Eagles returned okay this was his big diplomatic thing so he was big diplomatic thing so he was big diplomatic thing so he was constantly sending these embassies to constantly sending these embassies to constantly sending these embassies to Parthia on one of these embassies he Parthia on one of these embassies he Parthia on one of these embassies he sent along as a gift to the parthan king sent along as a gift to the parthan king sent along as a gift to the parthan king a slave woman named a slave woman named a slave woman named Musa Musa seems to have pleased the king Musa Musa seems to have pleased the king Musa Musa seems to have pleased the king of Parthia because she becomes one of of Parthia because she becomes one of of Parthia because she becomes one of his concubines and then she gives birth his concubines and then she gives birth his concubines and then she gives birth to a son by the king and eventually she to a son by the king and eventually she to a son by the king and eventually she becomes uh upgraded to the level of becomes uh upgraded to the level of becomes uh upgraded to the level of wife uh and Musa eventually uh murders wife uh and Musa eventually uh murders wife uh and Musa eventually uh murders the parthan the parthan the parthan king arranges it so that her son becomes king arranges it so that her son becomes king arranges it so that her son becomes the king of Parthia and she's really the king of Parthia and she's really the king of Parthia and she's really ruling the whole empire behind the ruling the whole empire behind the ruling the whole empire behind the scenes as his mother so this is a scenes as his mother so this is a scenes as his mother so this is a literal rags to riches story of a slave literal rags to riches story of a slave literal rags to riches story of a slave someone who starts out a slave and someone who starts out a slave and someone who starts out a slave and becomes the queen of an Empire almost as becomes the queen of an Empire almost as becomes the queen of an Empire almost as large and Powerful as Rome okay but yet large and Powerful as Rome okay but yet large and Powerful as Rome okay but yet how often do we hear about Musa um and how often do we hear about Musa um and how often do we hear about Musa um and when you look in traditional histories when you look in traditional histories when you look in traditional histories of Roman parthan relations and I went of Roman parthan relations and I went of Roman parthan relations and I went and looked at this because I was just and looked at this because I was just and looked at this because I was just writing this lecture most of those writing this lecture most of those writing this lecture most of those histories didn't even mention her they histories didn't even mention her they histories didn't even mention her they just talked about her son like he had

just talked about her son like he had just talked about her son like he had just come out of nowhere and become the just come out of nowhere and become the just come out of nowhere and become the new heir to the parthan throne when it new heir to the parthan throne when it new heir to the parthan throne when it was all her doing clearly now that's was all her doing clearly now that's was all her doing clearly now that's that's selective editing of History by that's selective editing of History by that's selective editing of History by historians to downplay the role that historians to downplay the role that historians to downplay the role that this woman this woman this woman played and there's a lot of examples played and there's a lot of examples played and there's a lot of examples like that that's fascinating she got like that that's fascinating she got like that that's fascinating she got overthrown after a few years there was a overthrown after a few years there was a overthrown after a few years there was a revolution against her and we don't know revolution against her and we don't know revolution against her and we don't know what happened to her then but it's she's what happened to her then but it's she's what happened to her then but it's she's a really interesting figure oh and by a really interesting figure oh and by a really interesting figure oh and by the way uh Augustus did negotiate the the way uh Augustus did negotiate the the way uh Augustus did negotiate the return of the parthan standards and got return of the parthan standards and got return of the parthan standards and got them back and he was so proud of this them back and he was so proud of this them back and he was so proud of this that this is what he constantly boasted that this is what he constantly boasted that this is what he constantly boasted about and the most famous statue of about and the most famous statue of about and the most famous statue of Augustus the Augustus from primaporta Augustus the Augustus from primaporta Augustus the Augustus from primaporta which is in the Vatican today um he's which is in the Vatican today um he's which is in the Vatican today um he's wearing a breastplate and on the wearing a breastplate and on the wearing a breastplate and on the breastplate right in the middle of the breastplate right in the middle of the breastplate right in the middle of the stomach is a parthan handing over a stomach is a parthan handing over a stomach is a parthan handing over a golden eagle legionary standard to a golden eagle legionary standard to a golden eagle legionary standard to a Roman so this is what Augustus thought Roman so this is what Augustus thought Roman so this is what Augustus thought of as his greatest achievement and that of as his greatest achievement and that of as his greatest achievement and that Embassy that arranged that was the one Embassy that arranged that was the one Embassy that arranged that was the one that sent Musa to that sent Musa to that sent Musa to Parthia so Augustus marks the start of Parthia so Augustus marks the start of Parthia so Augustus marks the start of the Roman Empire yep uh you've written the Roman Empire yep uh you've written the Roman Empire yep uh you've written that Octavian Augustus would become that Octavian Augustus would become that Octavian Augustus would become Rome's first emperor and uh the Rome's first emperor and uh the Rome's first emperor and uh the political system that he created would political system that he created would political system that he created would endure for the next half a endure for the next half a endure for the next half a millennium this system would become the millennium this system would become the millennium this system would become the template for countless later Empires up template for countless later Empires up template for countless later Empires up through the present day and he would through the present day and he would through the present day and he would become the model Emperor against whom become the model Emperor against whom become the model Emperor against whom all subsequent ones would be measured all subsequent ones would be measured all subsequent ones would be measured the culture and history of the the culture and history of the the culture and history of the Mediterranean Basin the Western World Mediterranean Basin the Western World Mediterranean Basin the Western World and even global history itself were all

and even global history itself were all and even global history itself were all profoundly shaped and influenced by the profoundly shaped and influenced by the profoundly shaped and influenced by the actions and Legacy of Octavian he was actions and Legacy of Octavian he was actions and Legacy of Octavian he was the founder of the Roman Empire and we the founder of the Roman Empire and we the founder of the Roman Empire and we still live today in the world that he still live today in the world that he still live today in the world that he created so what uh on the political side created so what uh on the political side created so what uh on the political side of things uh and maybe beyond what what of things uh and maybe beyond what what of things uh and maybe beyond what what is the political system that is the political system that is the political system that created well I mean I think Octavian created well I mean I think Octavian created well I mean I think Octavian Augustus it's the same guy is one of the Augustus it's the same guy is one of the Augustus it's the same guy is one of the most influential people in history most influential people in history most influential people in history because he did found the Roman Empire so because he did found the Roman Empire so because he did found the Roman Empire so he's the one who oversaw this transition he's the one who oversaw this transition he's the one who oversaw this transition from Republic to Empire and he sets the from Republic to Empire and he sets the from Republic to Empire and he sets the template which every future Emperor template which every future Emperor template which every future Emperor follows so just in the most obvious way follows so just in the most obvious way follows so just in the most obvious way for the next either 500 or 1500 years for the next either 500 or 1500 years for the next either 500 or 1500 years depending how you how long you think the depending how you how long you think the depending how you how long you think the Roman Empire lasted for everyone is Roman Empire lasted for everyone is Roman Empire lasted for everyone is trying to be Augustus they all take on trying to be Augustus they all take on trying to be Augustus they all take on the same titles every Roman Emperor the same titles every Roman Emperor the same titles every Roman Emperor after for him is Caesar Augustus you after for him is Caesar Augustus you after for him is Caesar Augustus you know uh imperator Potter patre all these know uh imperator Potter patre all these know uh imperator Potter patre all these titles he has they take twoo and so he's titles he has they take twoo and so he's titles he has they take twoo and so he's hugely influential for Western hugely influential for Western hugely influential for Western Civilization all this but beyond just Civilization all this but beyond just Civilization all this but beyond just that literal thing which is already 500 that literal thing which is already 500 that literal thing which is already 500 years 1500 years he becomes the Paradigm years 1500 years he becomes the Paradigm years 1500 years he becomes the Paradigm of the good ruler so of an absolute of the good ruler so of an absolute of the good ruler so of an absolute ruler who is nevertheless sort of just ruler who is nevertheless sort of just ruler who is nevertheless sort of just uh does good things builds Public Works uh does good things builds Public Works uh does good things builds Public Works is popular so if we jump ahead let's say is popular so if we jump ahead let's say is popular so if we jump ahead let's say to the Middle Ages the most significant to the Middle Ages the most significant to the Middle Ages the most significant ruler of the Early Middle Ages is ruler of the Early Middle Ages is ruler of the Early Middle Ages is Charlemagne right he's the guy who Charlemagne right he's the guy who Charlemagne right he's the guy who unites most of Europe he becomes the unites most of Europe he becomes the unites most of Europe he becomes the Paradigm for all medieval kings after Paradigm for all medieval kings after Paradigm for all medieval kings after him well what is the title that the pope

him well what is the title that the pope him well what is the title that the pope gives to Charlamagne because there's gives to Charlamagne because there's gives to Charlamagne because there's this famous moment when the pope this famous moment when the pope this famous moment when the pope acknowledges Charlamagne is the acknowledges Charlamagne is the acknowledges Charlamagne is the preeminent European king and crowns him preeminent European king and crowns him preeminent European king and crowns him on Christmas day of the year 800 and the on Christmas day of the year 800 and the on Christmas day of the year 800 and the title that the pope gives to Charlemagne title that the pope gives to Charlemagne title that the pope gives to Charlemagne is Charles that's Charlemagne Augustus is Charles that's Charlemagne Augustus is Charles that's Charlemagne Augustus emperor of the emperor of the emperor of the Romans he's giving him the title of Romans he's giving him the title of Romans he's giving him the title of Augustus because that's the nicest thing Augustus because that's the nicest thing Augustus because that's the nicest thing he can think of to say to Charlamagne is he can think of to say to Charlamagne is he can think of to say to Charlamagne is to say you're the new Augustus you're to say you're the new Augustus you're to say you're the new Augustus you're emperor of the Romans yeah so that image emperor of the Romans yeah so that image emperor of the Romans yeah so that image is hugely powerful and that persists on is hugely powerful and that persists on is hugely powerful and that persists on and on I mean even the the literal names and on I mean even the the literal names and on I mean even the the literal names of most rulers afterwards come from this of most rulers afterwards come from this of most rulers afterwards come from this uh in Russia the Zars are Caesars that's uh in Russia the Zars are Caesars that's uh in Russia the Zars are Caesars that's where Zar comes from um Prince comes where Zar comes from um Prince comes where Zar comes from um Prince comes from prps First Citizen one of the from prps First Citizen one of the from prps First Citizen one of the titles Emperor comes from imperator one titles Emperor comes from imperator one titles Emperor comes from imperator one of the titles of Augustus um when of the titles of Augustus um when of the titles of Augustus um when Napoleon becomes Emperor what does he Napoleon becomes Emperor what does he Napoleon becomes Emperor what does he call himself first Consul which is kind call himself first Consul which is kind call himself first Consul which is kind of like prps and then he calls himself of like prps and then he calls himself of like prps and then he calls himself Emperor um I mean everybody wants to be Emperor um I mean everybody wants to be Emperor um I mean everybody wants to be this kind of ruler so he's the Paradigm this kind of ruler so he's the Paradigm this kind of ruler so he's the Paradigm of this for the rest of history and you of this for the rest of history and you of this for the rest of history and you can see that as uh both a positive and a can see that as uh both a positive and a can see that as uh both a positive and a negative Legacy it's kind of like negative Legacy it's kind of like negative Legacy it's kind of like Alexander I mean everybody wants to be Alexander I mean everybody wants to be Alexander I mean everybody wants to be the next Alexander now nobody does the next Alexander now nobody does the next Alexander now nobody does become the next Alexander nobody's as become the next Alexander nobody's as become the next Alexander nobody's as successful as him but a lot of people successful as him but a lot of people successful as him but a lot of people try and you can see that either as oh try and you can see that either as oh try and you can see that either as oh inspirational or awful because lots of inspirational or awful because lots of inspirational or awful because lots of people killed lots of other people and

people killed lots of other people and people killed lots of other people and started lots of Wars trying to be the started lots of Wars trying to be the started lots of Wars trying to be the next next next Alexander um at least Augustus has this Alexander um at least Augustus has this Alexander um at least Augustus has this notion of good rulership that you're not notion of good rulership that you're not notion of good rulership that you're not just a great powerful person but you're just a great powerful person but you're just a great powerful person but you're a good ruler somehow now can can you a good ruler somehow now can can you a good ruler somehow now can can you speak to the kind of political system he speak to the kind of political system he speak to the kind of political system he created so you've how how did he created so you've how how did he created so you've how how did he consolidate power as you spoke to a bit consolidate power as you spoke to a bit consolidate power as you spoke to a bit already and what role did the Senate now already and what role did the Senate now already and what role did the Senate now play how were the play how were the play how were the laws uh who was the executive how's laws uh who was the executive how's laws uh who was the executive how's power allocated and so on yeah so uh power allocated and so on yeah so uh power allocated and so on yeah so uh once the Empire begins let's say 27 BC once the Empire begins let's say 27 BC once the Empire begins let's say 27 BC um so in 31 BC um Octavian defeats um so in 31 BC um Octavian defeats um so in 31 BC um Octavian defeats Anthony at the Battle of actium so Anthony at the Battle of actium so Anthony at the Battle of actium so that's kind of the moment he becomes the that's kind of the moment he becomes the that's kind of the moment he becomes the sole ruler and then in 27 BC a couple sole ruler and then in 27 BC a couple sole ruler and then in 27 BC a couple years later he settles the Roman years later he settles the Roman years later he settles the Roman Republic is how it's referred to which Republic is how it's referred to which Republic is how it's referred to which is basically sets up his system and in is basically sets up his system and in is basically sets up his system and in this system on the surface it all looks this system on the surface it all looks this system on the surface it all looks the same you still have a senate each the same you still have a senate each the same you still have a senate each year there's elections all the Roman year there's elections all the Roman year there's elections all the Roman citizens vote they elect magistrates who citizens vote they elect magistrates who citizens vote they elect magistrates who notionally are in charge of Rome but as notionally are in charge of Rome but as notionally are in charge of Rome but as I mentioned off to the side you now have I mentioned off to the side you now have I mentioned off to the side you now have this figure of Augustus who sort of this figure of Augustus who sort of this figure of Augustus who sort of controls everything behind the the controls everything behind the the controls everything behind the the scenes and that continues so this scenes and that continues so this scenes and that continues so this political system he establishes political system he establishes political system he establishes continues and in continues and in continues and in reality I would say Augustus at that reality I would say Augustus at that reality I would say Augustus at that point is again a king it really is one point is again a king it really is one point is again a king it really is one man controlling the state even if man controlling the state even if man controlling the state even if notionally it's still continuing as a

notionally it's still continuing as a notionally it's still continuing as a republic they are electing magistrates republic they are electing magistrates republic they are electing magistrates but the magistrates only do what the but the magistrates only do what the but the magistrates only do what the emperor tells them right but it's this emperor tells them right but it's this emperor tells them right but it's this sort of formal versus informal power the sort of formal versus informal power the sort of formal versus informal power the formal structure is a republic the way formal structure is a republic the way formal structure is a republic the way things really work informally is it's a things really work informally is it's a things really work informally is it's a monarchy now if you asked Augustus what monarchy now if you asked Augustus what monarchy now if you asked Augustus what did he do did you become a king he said did he do did you become a king he said did he do did you become a king he said and he says this explicitly no no no and he says this explicitly no no no and he says this explicitly no no no what I did is I what I did is I what I did is I refounded the Roman Republic that's how refounded the Roman Republic that's how refounded the Roman Republic that's how he phrases it D this guy's good at he phrases it D this guy's good at he phrases it D this guy's good at framing he's he's so good at propaganda framing he's he's so good at propaganda framing he's he's so good at propaganda I'll give you one more example that I I'll give you one more example that I I'll give you one more example that I love uh Augustus actually writes his own love uh Augustus actually writes his own love uh Augustus actually writes his own autobiography which is very rare and autobiography which is very rare and autobiography which is very rare and survives so here we have the survives so here we have the survives so here we have the autobiography of one of the pivotal autobiography of one of the pivotal autobiography of one of the pivotal figures in history and if you had figures in history and if you had figures in history and if you had conquered the world let's say starting conquered the world let's say starting conquered the world let's say starting at the age of 18 uh what would you call at the age of 18 uh what would you call at the age of 18 uh what would you call your autobiography be something like you your autobiography be something like you your autobiography be something like you know how I conquered the world right know how I conquered the world right know how I conquered the world right Augustus calls his the race guesty which Augustus calls his the race guesty which Augustus calls his the race guesty which the best sort of literal translation is the best sort of literal translation is the best sort of literal translation is stuff I did I mean it's the most modest stuff I did I mean it's the most modest stuff I did I mean it's the most modest title for someone who could have given title for someone who could have given title for someone who could have given the most grandiose title and the first the most grandiose title and the first the most grandiose title and the first line of it is you know at the age of 18 line of it is you know at the age of 18 line of it is you know at the age of 18 when the liberty of the Republic was when the liberty of the Republic was when the liberty of the Republic was oppressed by a faction I defended it now oppressed by a faction I defended it now oppressed by a faction I defended it now the way I might phrase that sense is at the way I might phrase that sense is at the way I might phrase that sense is at the age of 18 I fought a civil war the age of 18 I fought a civil war the age of 18 I fought a civil war against another Roman and conquered the against another Roman and conquered the against another Roman and conquered the Roman state but no he defended the Roman state but no he defended the Roman state but no he defended the liberty of the Republic when it was liberty of the Republic when it was liberty of the Republic when it was oppressed by the tyranny of a faction oppressed by the tyranny of a faction oppressed by the tyranny of a faction that's propaganda um and it works it is

that's propaganda um and it works it is that's propaganda um and it works it is propaganda but is there a degree to propaganda but is there a degree to propaganda but is there a degree to which he also lived it that kind of which he also lived it that kind of which he also lived it that kind of humility establishing that humility is a humility establishing that humility is a humility establishing that humility is a standard of the way government operates standard of the way government operates standard of the way government operates so it's not an like a literal direct so it's not an like a literal direct so it's not an like a literal direct balance of power but it's sort of a balance of power but it's sort of a balance of power but it's sort of a cultural balance of power where the cultural balance of power where the cultural balance of power where the emperor is not supposed to be a bully emperor is not supposed to be a bully emperor is not supposed to be a bully and a dictator I would really like to and a dictator I would really like to and a dictator I would really like to know what Romans of his time thought know what Romans of his time thought know what Romans of his time thought like if if you were alive at that moment like if if you were alive at that moment like if if you were alive at that moment would you honestly believe oh okay we've would you honestly believe oh okay we've would you honestly believe oh okay we've got this guy Augustus but he's brought got this guy Augustus but he's brought got this guy Augustus but he's brought peace he's just kind of keeping in peace he's just kind of keeping in peace he's just kind of keeping in charge for a while till things settle charge for a while till things settle charge for a while till things settle down we've just had 100 Years of Civil down we've just had 100 Years of Civil down we've just had 100 Years of Civil War I think we still have a republic or War I think we still have a republic or War I think we still have a republic or would you say would you say would you say nah we have a king now and I don't know nah we have a king now and I don't know nah we have a king now and I don't know what the answer to that is I will tell what the answer to that is I will tell what the answer to that is I will tell you that it takes 200 years before we you that it takes 200 years before we you that it takes 200 years before we have the first Roman source that bluntly have the first Roman source that bluntly have the first Roman source that bluntly calls uh Augustus a king So 200 years it calls uh Augustus a king So 200 years it calls uh Augustus a king So 200 years it takes the Romans 200 years to admit to takes the Romans 200 years to admit to takes the Romans 200 years to admit to themselves and that's that's a guy who themselves and that's that's a guy who themselves and that's that's a guy who comes along 200 years later and says hey comes along 200 years later and says hey comes along 200 years later and says hey Augustus he looks like a king he acts Augustus he looks like a king he acts Augustus he looks like a king he acts like a king let's just call him a king like a king let's just call him a king like a king let's just call him a king because he had every aspect of a king because he had every aspect of a king because he had every aspect of a king except the poultry title maybe I'm except the poultry title maybe I'm except the poultry title maybe I'm buying his propaganda and maybe I'm a buying his propaganda and maybe I'm a buying his propaganda and maybe I'm a sucker for humility but I suspect that sucker for humility but I suspect that sucker for humility but I suspect that the Romans bought it and I also suspect the Romans bought it and I also suspect the Romans bought it and I also suspect he himself believed it I mean there is he himself believed it I mean there is he himself believed it I mean there is such thing as good Kings right there's such thing as good Kings right there's such thing as good Kings right there's kings that understand the the downside

kings that understand the the downside kings that understand the the downside the Dark Side of absolute power and and the Dark Side of absolute power and and the Dark Side of absolute power and and and can wield that power properly and and can wield that power properly and and can wield that power properly and and you know to to give sort of both and you know to to give sort of both and you know to to give sort of both sides here Augustus wasn't all nice I sides here Augustus wasn't all nice I sides here Augustus wasn't all nice I mean there were moments where he was mean there were moments where he was mean there were moments where he was extremely cruel so early in his career extremely cruel so early in his career extremely cruel so early in his career when he's still fighting when he's for when he's still fighting when he's for when he's still fighting when he's for power he he goes all in on prescriptions power he he goes all in on prescriptions power he he goes all in on prescriptions which is where he and auntie and other which is where he and auntie and other which is where he and auntie and other people uh basically post lists of their people uh basically post lists of their people uh basically post lists of their enemies and say it's legal for anyone to enemies and say it's legal for anyone to enemies and say it's legal for anyone to kill these people um and so hundreds are kill these people um and so hundreds are kill these people um and so hundreds are massacred there including Cicero uh the massacred there including Cicero uh the massacred there including Cicero uh the great order is prescribed and killed great order is prescribed and killed great order is prescribed and killed there's moments when he's really cruel there's moments when he's really cruel there's moments when he's really cruel one slave once gets him angry and he has one slave once gets him angry and he has one slave once gets him angry and he has him tortured in a particularly sort of him tortured in a particularly sort of him tortured in a particularly sort of cruel manner so I mean on the one hand cruel manner so I mean on the one hand cruel manner so I mean on the one hand he had this clemency on the other hand he had this clemency on the other hand he had this clemency on the other hand he he could be really hard-nosed um and he he could be really hard-nosed um and he he could be really hard-nosed um and hard edged and I I think he was a very hard edged and I I think he was a very hard edged and I I think he was a very calculating person um so the thing I calculating person um so the thing I calculating person um so the thing I would love to know is what he was would love to know is what he was would love to know is what he was actually like behind the mask yes I mean actually like behind the mask yes I mean actually like behind the mask yes I mean that that to me is one of those like if that that to me is one of those like if that that to me is one of those like if you could invite a historical person to you could invite a historical person to you could invite a historical person to dinner or whatever I want to know what dinner or whatever I want to know what dinner or whatever I want to know what the real Augustus was what he really the real Augustus was what he really the real Augustus was what he really thought he was doing because he's he's thought he was doing because he's he's thought he was doing because he's he's an enigma um and and he has this great an enigma um and and he has this great an enigma um and and he has this great moment when he dies right what what's moment when he dies right what what's moment when he dies right what what's his dying lines on his deathbed he says his dying lines on his deathbed he says his dying lines on his deathbed he says if I've played my part well dismiss me if I've played my part well dismiss me if I've played my part well dismiss me from the stage with Applause so he's from the stage with Applause so he's from the stage with Applause so he's seeing himself as an actor that his seeing himself as an actor that his seeing himself as an actor that his whole life was acting this role uh which whole life was acting this role uh which whole life was acting this role uh which is again all that manipulation and is again all that manipulation and is again all that manipulation and Public Image he was brilliant at that Public Image he was brilliant at that Public Image he was brilliant at that but who's the real guy what was behind but who's the real guy what was behind but who's the real guy what was behind that image and by the way uh as long as that image and by the way uh as long as that image and by the way uh as long as we're talking about brutality you I

we're talking about brutality you I we're talking about brutality you I think You' mentioned in a few places think You' mentioned in a few places think You' mentioned in a few places that uh there's a lot of brutality going that uh there's a lot of brutality going that uh there's a lot of brutality going on at the time uh with Caesar on at the time uh with Caesar on at the time uh with Caesar just killing very large nums numbers of just killing very large nums numbers of just killing very large nums numbers of people um people um people um brutally I mean Caesar his campaigns in brutally I mean Caesar his campaigns in brutally I mean Caesar his campaigns in Gaul are interesting because for a long Gaul are interesting because for a long Gaul are interesting because for a long time they were held up as oh genius time they were held up as oh genius time they were held up as oh genius General look at the amazing things he General look at the amazing things he General look at the amazing things he did but another way to view it is he did but another way to view it is he did but another way to view it is he provoked and he truly provoked a war provoked and he truly provoked a war provoked and he truly provoked a war with people who were not that interested with people who were not that interested with people who were not that interested in fighting Rome and just repeatedly in fighting Rome and just repeatedly in fighting Rome and just repeatedly attack different tribes for the sole attack different tribes for the sole attack different tribes for the sole purpose of building up his his career purpose of building up his his career purpose of building up his his career his Prestige his status uh gaining his Prestige his status uh gaining his Prestige his status uh gaining territory making himself wealthier and territory making himself wealthier and territory making himself wealthier and he basically conquers all of modern he basically conquers all of modern he basically conquers all of modern France and Belgium and some of France and Belgium and some of France and Belgium and some of Switzerland so this is you know a big Switzerland so this is you know a big Switzerland so this is you know a big chunk of Europe gets conquered hundreds chunk of Europe gets conquered hundreds chunk of Europe gets conquered hundreds of thousands of people killed hundreds of thousands of people killed hundreds of thousands of people killed hundreds of thousands of people enslaved to of thousands of people enslaved to of thousands of people enslaved to further one guy's career I mean you if further one guy's career I mean you if further one guy's career I mean you if you wanted could call Caesar a war you wanted could call Caesar a war you wanted could call Caesar a war criminal and I think that wouldn't be criminal and I think that wouldn't be criminal and I think that wouldn't be unfair um but on the other hand some unfair um but on the other hand some unfair um but on the other hand some people see him as a great great hero I people see him as a great great hero I people see him as a great great hero I mean to talk about history and its mean to talk about history and its mean to talk about history and its reception it's quite interesting to see reception it's quite interesting to see reception it's quite interesting to see how Caesar has been viewed by different how Caesar has been viewed by different how Caesar has been viewed by different Generations so at different points in Generations so at different points in Generations so at different points in time the sort of you know received time the sort of you know received time the sort of you know received wisdom on Caesar is very different so wisdom on Caesar is very different so wisdom on Caesar is very different so back in the you know let's say the 1920s back in the you know let's say the 1920s back in the you know let's say the 1920s or 30s uh there were a number of or 30s uh there were a number of or 30s uh there were a number of scholarly things written which kind of scholarly things written which kind of scholarly things written which kind of looked at Caesar as um an admirable

looked at Caesar as um an admirable looked at Caesar as um an admirable figure um he's a strong man who knows figure um he's a strong man who knows figure um he's a strong man who knows what Rome needed and you know was was what Rome needed and you know was was what Rome needed and you know was was going to give it to them um and of going to give it to them um and of going to give it to them um and of course that's the era when fascism was course that's the era when fascism was course that's the era when fascism was kind of trendy and was seen as a kind of trendy and was seen as a kind of trendy and was seen as a positive thing and then you get you know positive thing and then you get you know positive thing and then you get you know Hitler and World War II and all of a Hitler and World War II and all of a Hitler and World War II and all of a sudden fascism is not so so favored sudden fascism is not so so favored sudden fascism is not so so favored anymore and then in that postwar anymore and then in that postwar anymore and then in that postwar Generation all of a sudden Caesar's Generation all of a sudden Caesar's Generation all of a sudden Caesar's terrible you know he's he's a dictator terrible you know he's he's a dictator terrible you know he's he's a dictator he's destroying the Republic so it you he's destroying the Republic so it you he's destroying the Republic so it you know often histories that are written know often histories that are written know often histories that are written tell you a lot more about the time tell you a lot more about the time tell you a lot more about the time they're written than they do about the they're written than they do about the they're written than they do about the subject they're written about do we know subject they're written about do we know subject they're written about do we know what did Hitler or Stalin think about what did Hitler or Stalin think about what did Hitler or Stalin think about the Roman Empire I mean certainly they the Roman Empire I mean certainly they the Roman Empire I mean certainly they borrow a lot of the trappings I mean you borrow a lot of the trappings I mean you borrow a lot of the trappings I mean you know Nazi Germany borrows a lot of know Nazi Germany borrows a lot of know Nazi Germany borrows a lot of iconography from ancient Rome you know I iconography from ancient Rome you know I iconography from ancient Rome you know I mean They Carried around little military mean They Carried around little military mean They Carried around little military standards with eagles on them just like standards with eagles on them just like standards with eagles on them just like the Romans um but then everybody does the Romans um but then everybody does the Romans um but then everybody does that I mean the US has Eagles as their that I mean the US has Eagles as their that I mean the US has Eagles as their standards musolini had them Napoleon had standards musolini had them Napoleon had standards musolini had them Napoleon had Eagle standards for his um you know Eagle standards for his um you know Eagle standards for his um you know military so a lot of people like that uh military so a lot of people like that uh military so a lot of people like that uh imagery you uh you mentioned Cicero he's imagery you uh you mentioned Cicero he's imagery you uh you mentioned Cicero he's a fascinating figure on the top of of a fascinating figure on the top of of a fascinating figure on the top of of Roman oratory who was Roman oratory who was Roman oratory who was Cicero Cicero was a new man so he's Cicero Cicero was a new man so he's Cicero Cicero was a new man so he's someone who didn't have famous ancestors someone who didn't have famous ancestors someone who didn't have famous ancestors um so he was a disadvantage and I think um so he was a disadvantage and I think um so he was a disadvantage and I think CIS is really interesting for a couple CIS is really interesting for a couple CIS is really interesting for a couple reasons one is he wrote an incredible reasons one is he wrote an incredible reasons one is he wrote an incredible amount I think we have almost more words amount I think we have almost more words amount I think we have almost more words from Cicero than any other author that from Cicero than any other author that from Cicero than any other author that survive and it's all kinds of stuff it's survive and it's all kinds of stuff it's survive and it's all kinds of stuff it's philosophical treatises it's books about

philosophical treatises it's books about philosophical treatises it's books about how to be a good public speaker he how to be a good public speaker he how to be a good public speaker he published you know volume after volume published you know volume after volume published you know volume after volume of his personal letters to his friends of his personal letters to his friends of his personal letters to his friends he published these things um so there's he published these things um so there's he published these things um so there's tons of stuff from him and secondly he's tons of stuff from him and secondly he's tons of stuff from him and secondly he's interesting because he lived at this interesting because he lived at this interesting because he lived at this incredibly important time in the late incredibly important time in the late incredibly important time in the late Republic when things were falling apart Republic when things were falling apart Republic when things were falling apart but he seems to have been born with none but he seems to have been born with none but he seems to have been born with none of the natural advantages that all these of the natural advantages that all these of the natural advantages that all these other people had so he was a lousy other people had so he was a lousy other people had so he was a lousy General uh he didn't come from a wealthy General uh he didn't come from a wealthy General uh he didn't come from a wealthy family he didn't come from a famous family he didn't come from a famous family he didn't come from a famous aristocratic family um you know he aristocratic family um you know he aristocratic family um you know he didn't have a lot of these advantages didn't have a lot of these advantages didn't have a lot of these advantages but yet he ended up being right at the but yet he ended up being right at the but yet he ended up being right at the center of things Rose to the highest center of things Rose to the highest center of things Rose to the highest elected office in the Roman State on the elected office in the Roman State on the elected office in the Roman State on the basis of one skill and that was his basis of one skill and that was his basis of one skill and that was his ability with words his ability to get up ability with words his ability to get up ability with words his ability to get up in front of a crowd and persuade them of in front of a crowd and persuade them of in front of a crowd and persuade them of what he wanted them to believe an what he wanted them to believe an what he wanted them to believe an oratory public speaking was absolutely oratory public speaking was absolutely oratory public speaking was absolutely Central to life at Rome there were just Central to life at Rome there were just Central to life at Rome there were just all these events where people had to get all these events where people had to get all these events where people had to get up and and give speeches so in up and and give speeches so in up and and give speeches so in courtrooms at funerals um you know in courtrooms at funerals um you know in courtrooms at funerals um you know in the Senate uh to the people of Rome um the Senate uh to the people of Rome um the Senate uh to the people of Rome um at games I mean just constantly there at games I mean just constantly there at games I mean just constantly there were these opportunities for giving were these opportunities for giving were these opportunities for giving speeches so if you were good at this speeches so if you were good at this speeches so if you were good at this that was a huge uh advantage in your that was a huge uh advantage in your that was a huge uh advantage in your political career and Cicero was the best political career and Cicero was the best political career and Cicero was the best he he he was arguably the best public speaker of was arguably the best public speaker of was arguably the best public speaker of all time some people claim um and he all time some people claim um and he all time some people claim um and he lived right in this era and he parlayed lived right in this era and he parlayed lived right in this era and he parlayed that skill with words into this very that skill with words into this very that skill with words into this very successful political career he was one

successful political career he was one successful political career he was one of the guys involved with all this stuff of the guys involved with all this stuff of the guys involved with all this stuff with Caesar and pompy and all the things with Caesar and pompy and all the things with Caesar and pompy and all the things going on Octavia Mark Anthony and you've going on Octavia Mark Anthony and you've going on Octavia Mark Anthony and you've uh you've written which is fascinating uh you've written which is fascinating uh you've written which is fascinating it's fascinating when The Echoes of it's fascinating when The Echoes of it's fascinating when The Echoes of people from a distant past are seen people from a distant past are seen people from a distant past are seen today the same stuff is seen today not today the same stuff is seen today not today the same stuff is seen today not just like some of the the beautiful just like some of the the beautiful just like some of the the beautiful legal stuff that we've been talking legal stuff that we've been talking legal stuff that we've been talking about but the the the tricks the the you about but the the the tricks the the you about but the the the tricks the the you know let's say the the the shitty stuff know let's say the the the shitty stuff know let's say the the the shitty stuff we see in politics so many of the we see in politics so many of the we see in politics so many of the rhetorical tricks you wrote such as rhetorical tricks you wrote such as rhetorical tricks you wrote such as mudslinging exaggeration Gil by mudslinging exaggeration Gil by mudslinging exaggeration Gil by association and hominum attacks name association and hominum attacks name association and hominum attacks name calling fear-mongering us versus them calling fear-mongering us versus them calling fear-mongering us versus them rhyme and so on and so forth so I'm rhyme and so on and so forth so I'm rhyme and so on and so forth so I'm guessing it worked given that we still guessing it worked given that we still guessing it worked given that we still have those today yeah I mean one of the have those today yeah I mean one of the have those today yeah I mean one of the things ciso did is he wrote at least things ciso did is he wrote at least things ciso did is he wrote at least three of these sort of handbooks about three of these sort of handbooks about three of these sort of handbooks about how to be a good public speaker so we how to be a good public speaker so we how to be a good public speaker so we know a lot about that um we have his own know a lot about that um we have his own know a lot about that um we have his own speeches that survive and then we have speeches that survive and then we have speeches that survive and then we have later people after ciso who wrote about later people after ciso who wrote about later people after ciso who wrote about what ciso did too so we know a lot about what ciso did too so we know a lot about what ciso did too so we know a lot about what he did and the key to Cicero's what he did and the key to Cicero's what he did and the key to Cicero's whole Enterprise about persuading an whole Enterprise about persuading an whole Enterprise about persuading an audience let's say either it a speech to audience let's say either it a speech to audience let's say either it a speech to the people or in the courtroom is Cicero the people or in the courtroom is Cicero the people or in the courtroom is Cicero believed that people are fundamentally believed that people are fundamentally believed that people are fundamentally ruled by emotion mhm so if you can touch ruled by emotion mhm so if you can touch ruled by emotion mhm so if you can touch their emotions all sorts of other things their emotions all sorts of other things their emotions all sorts of other things become less important if you can get a become less important if you can get a become less important if you can get a jury emotionally worked up and fear jury emotionally worked up and fear jury emotionally worked up and fear anger are particularly powerful there anger are particularly powerful there anger are particularly powerful there then the facts might not matter the then the facts might not matter the then the facts might not matter the truth might not matter evidence might truth might not matter evidence might truth might not matter evidence might not matter uh reason might not matter

not matter uh reason might not matter not matter uh reason might not matter emotion is the key to everything so emotion is the key to everything so emotion is the key to everything so cisero used what I would arguably call a cisero used what I would arguably call a cisero used what I would arguably call a lot of tricks to get his audiences lot of tricks to get his audiences lot of tricks to get his audiences emotionally riled up and you can just go emotionally riled up and you can just go emotionally riled up and you can just go through these and they're all the stuff through these and they're all the stuff through these and they're all the stuff you were saying you know name calling um you were saying you know name calling um you were saying you know name calling um you know U mudslinging Us Versus Them you know U mudslinging Us Versus Them you know U mudslinging Us Versus Them arguments um you know add homonym arguments um you know add homonym arguments um you know add homonym attacks um I mean incredibly attacks um I mean incredibly attacks um I mean incredibly sophisticated all the stuff that we sophisticated all the stuff that we sophisticated all the stuff that we think of today is oh very sophisticated think of today is oh very sophisticated think of today is oh very sophisticated techniques for um you know propaganda techniques for um you know propaganda techniques for um you know propaganda and persuasion it's not new PE people and persuasion it's not new PE people and persuasion it's not new PE people are aren't coming up with that much are aren't coming up with that much are aren't coming up with that much that's new outside the realm of that's new outside the realm of that's new outside the realm of Technology human nature is the same CIS Technology human nature is the same CIS Technology human nature is the same CIS understood human psychology he knew how understood human psychology he knew how understood human psychology he knew how to play on people he knew how to play on to play on people he knew how to play on to play on people he knew how to play on their emotions and he would do just I their emotions and he would do just I their emotions and he would do just I mean I want to say hilarious but they're mean I want to say hilarious but they're mean I want to say hilarious but they're sort of depressingly hilarious things sort of depressingly hilarious things sort of depressingly hilarious things like uh he thought it's important to use like uh he thought it's important to use like uh he thought it's important to use props so he said you know people are props so he said you know people are props so he said you know people are visual uh they will respond emotionally visual uh they will respond emotionally visual uh they will respond emotionally to visual things in a way that just to visual things in a way that just to visual things in a way that just words alone won't work so he says uh in words alone won't work so he says uh in words alone won't work so he says uh in order is just like an actor and like an order is just like an actor and like an order is just like an actor and like an actor he has to prepare his stage and actor he has to prepare his stage and actor he has to prepare his stage and use props and and you know things as um use props and and you know things as um use props and and you know things as um you know visual cues to stir up the you know visual cues to stir up the you know visual cues to stir up the audience so for example once he was audience so for example once he was audience so for example once he was defending a man in a court case who had defending a man in a court case who had defending a man in a court case who had just had a new baby born to him and just had a new baby born to him and just had a new baby born to him and Cicero literally delivered the defense Cicero literally delivered the defense Cicero literally delivered the defense oration for this guy while cradling his oration for this guy while cradling his oration for this guy while cradling his newborn son in his arms you know you can newborn son in his arms you know you can newborn son in his arms you know you can imagine oh cute little baby jury how imagine oh cute little baby jury how imagine oh cute little baby jury how could you find him guilty and leave this could you find him guilty and leave this could you find him guilty and leave this cute baby without a father to take care

cute baby without a father to take care cute baby without a father to take care of him um another time he was defending of him um another time he was defending of him um another time he was defending a guy who had a photogenic son a kind of a guy who had a photogenic son a kind of a guy who had a photogenic son a kind of a young boy and ciso literally propped a young boy and ciso literally propped a young boy and ciso literally propped up the kid behind him while he was up the kid behind him while he was up the kid behind him while he was giving the speech and again said look at giving the speech and again said look at giving the speech and again said look at his eyes brimming with tears thinking his eyes brimming with tears thinking his eyes brimming with tears thinking about his father you know being punished about his father you know being punished about his father you know being punished how could you leave this wonderful boy how could you leave this wonderful boy how could you leave this wonderful boy without you know uh a father to care for without you know uh a father to care for without you know uh a father to care for him another time someone didn't have him another time someone didn't have him another time someone didn't have photo Jack kids so we propped up his old photo Jack kids so we propped up his old photo Jack kids so we propped up his old parents in the courtroom and said look parents in the courtroom and said look parents in the courtroom and said look at this nice old couple you won't want at this nice old couple you won't want at this nice old couple you won't want to take their son away to take their son away to take their son away um you know that kind of stuff I mean um you know that kind of stuff I mean um you know that kind of stuff I mean it's it's manipulative um cister by the it's it's manipulative um cister by the it's it's manipulative um cister by the way I should say also had um way I should say also had um way I should say also had um philosophical beliefs about defending philosophical beliefs about defending philosophical beliefs about defending the Republic and such but he wasn't the Republic and such but he wasn't the Republic and such but he wasn't above using these things so even though above using these things so even though above using these things so even though he may have had altruistic or high he may have had altruistic or high he may have had altruistic or high Notions of you know uh what he was doing Notions of you know uh what he was doing Notions of you know uh what he was doing he also wasn't above using these kind of he also wasn't above using these kind of he also wasn't above using these kind of rhetorical tricks and also you mentioned rhetorical tricks and also you mentioned rhetorical tricks and also you mentioned to me that you studied the to me that you studied the to me that you studied the gestures they used like this is one of gestures they used like this is one of gestures they used like this is one of those like on the theme of extreme those like on the theme of extreme those like on the theme of extreme extremely interesting extremely interesting extremely interesting details of life this was actually my uh details of life this was actually my uh details of life this was actually my uh dissertation and it was my first book dissertation and it was my first book dissertation and it was my first book amazing well that's amazing is again I amazing well that's amazing is again I amazing well that's amazing is again I tell you I like practical stuff and this tell you I like practical stuff and this tell you I like practical stuff and this all started with I kept reading about all started with I kept reading about all started with I kept reading about people like Cicero giving speeches okay people like Cicero giving speeches okay people like Cicero giving speeches okay in ancient Rome lots of speeches and in ancient Rome lots of speeches and in ancient Rome lots of speeches and they would give a speech in the Forum they would give a speech in the Forum they would give a speech in the Forum with 10 20,000 people and the thought with 10 20,000 people and the thought with 10 20,000 people and the thought occurred to me well in ancient Rome you occurred to me well in ancient Rome you occurred to me well in ancient Rome you don't have microphones you don't have don't have microphones you don't have don't have microphones you don't have loudspeakers so how does someone give a loudspeakers so how does someone give a loudspeakers so how does someone give a speech outdoors in a windy place not

speech outdoors in a windy place not speech outdoors in a windy place not acoustically sound to 20,000 people they acoustically sound to 20,000 people they acoustically sound to 20,000 people they just can't hear you and the answer part just can't hear you and the answer part just can't hear you and the answer part of the answer turns out part of it's of the answer turns out part of it's of the answer turns out part of it's oratorical training you learn how to oratorical training you learn how to oratorical training you learn how to project your voice but some of it too is project your voice but some of it too is project your voice but some of it too is that the Romans actually had the system that the Romans actually had the system that the Romans actually had the system of gestures that ERS like ciso would use of gestures that ERS like ciso would use of gestures that ERS like ciso would use to accompany their to accompany their to accompany their speeches and what I ended up doing is speeches and what I ended up doing is speeches and what I ended up doing is combining two types of evidence again so combining two types of evidence again so combining two types of evidence again so I looked at the rhetorical handbooks I looked at the rhetorical handbooks I looked at the rhetorical handbooks like ciso and also there's this guy like ciso and also there's this guy like ciso and also there's this guy quintilian who lived about 100 years quintilian who lived about 100 years quintilian who lived about 100 years after Cicero who wrote this long thing after Cicero who wrote this long thing after Cicero who wrote this long thing called The Institute oratoria which has called The Institute oratoria which has called The Institute oratoria which has a a description of all types of a a description of all types of a a description of all types of oratorical stuff including about 40 oratorical stuff including about 40 oratorical stuff including about 40 pages on gestures so he actually says pages on gestures so he actually says pages on gestures so he actually says when you put your fingers like this it when you put your fingers like this it when you put your fingers like this it means such and such and it turns out means such and such and it turns out means such and such and it turns out Roman orders had a system of sign Roman orders had a system of sign Roman orders had a system of sign language that they would use to augment language that they would use to augment language that they would use to augment their speeches but here's the fun part their speeches but here's the fun part their speeches but here's the fun part it wasn't like modern American Sign it wasn't like modern American Sign it wasn't like modern American Sign Language where a gesture means the same Language where a gesture means the same Language where a gesture means the same thing as a word instead and this goes thing as a word instead and this goes thing as a word instead and this goes back to cisero a certain gesture would back to cisero a certain gesture would back to cisero a certain gesture would indicate a certain emotion that you were indicate a certain emotion that you were indicate a certain emotion that you were meant to feel when you heard the words meant to feel when you heard the words meant to feel when you heard the words so it's like your body is adding an so it's like your body is adding an so it's like your body is adding an emotional gloss to your speech you're emotional gloss to your speech you're emotional gloss to your speech you're saying words and then you're indicating saying words and then you're indicating saying words and then you're indicating how you think those words should make how you think those words should make how you think those words should make you feel and even more fun the Romans you feel and even more fun the Romans you feel and even more fun the Romans believed that if I make certain hand believed that if I make certain hand believed that if I make certain hand gestures you will almost involuntarily gestures you will almost involuntarily gestures you will almost involuntarily feel certain emotions so if you're feel certain emotions so if you're feel certain emotions so if you're skilled you can manipulate your Audience

skilled you can manipulate your Audience skilled you can manipulate your Audience by playing on their emotions and this by playing on their emotions and this by playing on their emotions and this might sound you know kind of weird or might sound you know kind of weird or might sound you know kind of weird or improbable but the metaphor that Cicero improbable but the metaphor that Cicero improbable but the metaphor that Cicero himself uses is he says think about himself uses is he says think about himself uses is he says think about music everybody knows that certain music everybody knows that certain music everybody knows that certain musical tones will make you feel a musical tones will make you feel a musical tones will make you feel a certain way so you know think of movies certain way so you know think of movies certain way so you know think of movies today in a horror movie you know they're today in a horror movie you know they're today in a horror movie you know they're going to play strident tense music in a going to play strident tense music in a going to play strident tense music in a romantic scene you're going to have romantic scene you're going to have romantic scene you're going to have strings and it'll make you feel a strings and it'll make you feel a strings and it'll make you feel a certain way when you hear the Jaws theme certain way when you hear the Jaws theme certain way when you hear the Jaws theme you feel tense right CIS said the 's you feel tense right CIS said the 's you feel tense right CIS said the 's body is like a liar a liar is a musical body is like a liar a liar is a musical body is like a liar a liar is a musical instrument and you have to learn to play instrument and you have to learn to play instrument and you have to learn to play on your own body as a musical instrument on your own body as a musical instrument on your own body as a musical instrument to affect the emotions of your audience to affect the emotions of your audience to affect the emotions of your audience I think he might be on to something I think he might be on to something I think he might be on to something especially given how Central Public especially given how Central Public especially given how Central Public Speaking was in Roman and a lot of the Speaking was in Roman and a lot of the Speaking was in Roman and a lot of the Roman oratorical gestures like I could Roman oratorical gestures like I could Roman oratorical gestures like I could probably do some and you could probably probably do some and you could probably probably do some and you could probably guess what emotion they're meant to be guess what emotion they're meant to be guess what emotion they're meant to be so for example there's one where like so for example there's one where like so for example there's one where like you hold up your hands to the side and you hold up your hands to the side and you hold up your hands to the side and kind of push like this MH so this is the kind of push like this MH so this is the kind of push like this MH so this is the gesture and what that means is kind of gesture and what that means is kind of gesture and what that means is kind of mild aversion I don't like something now mild aversion I don't like something now mild aversion I don't like something now if I couple this with turning my face to if I couple this with turning my face to if I couple this with turning my face to the to the side like that so pushing off the to the side like that so pushing off the to the side like that so pushing off to one side turning my face away it's a to one side turning my face away it's a to one side turning my face away it's a strong aversion that's like fear or strong aversion that's like fear or strong aversion that's like fear or something if I clench my fist and press something if I clench my fist and press something if I clench my fist and press it to my chest that's anger or grief if it to my chest that's anger or grief if it to my chest that's anger or grief if I slap my thigh again that's an I slap my thigh again that's an I slap my thigh again that's an indication of anger so a lot of these uh indication of anger so a lot of these uh indication of anger so a lot of these uh Mak sense I mean they're kind of natural Mak sense I mean they're kind of natural Mak sense I mean they're kind of natural gestures now some are really weird and gestures now some are really weird and gestures now some are really weird and artificial um I mean one of my favorite artificial um I mean one of my favorite artificial um I mean one of my favorite of these is if you like hold your hand of these is if you like hold your hand of these is if you like hold your hand up uh open and then curl the fingers in up uh open and then curl the fingers in up uh open and then curl the fingers in one by one and then flip it out so uh

one by one and then flip it out so uh one by one and then flip it out so uh this sort of thing that to the Romans this sort of thing that to the Romans this sort of thing that to the Romans meant meant meant Wonder um which you sort of see but Wonder um which you sort of see but Wonder um which you sort of see but again if you've been raised in a again if you've been raised in a again if you've been raised in a societal context where you're used to societal context where you're used to societal context where you're used to the notion that this gesture means this the notion that this gesture means this the notion that this gesture means this emotion when someone does it you're emotion when someone does it you're emotion when someone does it you're probably going to feel that emotion it's probably going to feel that emotion it's probably going to feel that emotion it's like memes today is if it becomes viral like memes today is if it becomes viral like memes today is if it becomes viral you know what it's supposed to mean that you know what it's supposed to mean that you know what it's supposed to mean that and has power I mean it and it's and has power I mean it and it's and has power I mean it and it's actually interesting that we don't use actually interesting that we don't use actually interesting that we don't use gestures as much in modern day well I gestures as much in modern day well I gestures as much in modern day well I mean for me I I just love analyzing mean for me I I just love analyzing mean for me I I just love analyzing modern political figures in terms of modern political figures in terms of modern political figures in terms of their body language yes um because how their body language yes um because how their body language yes um because how you deliver a speech is often more you deliver a speech is often more you deliver a speech is often more important than what you say uh in fact important than what you say uh in fact important than what you say uh in fact in the ancient world uh the most famous in the ancient world uh the most famous in the ancient world uh the most famous Greek oror was a guy named Greek oror was a guy named Greek oror was a guy named demosthenes um and once a guy came up to demosthenes um and once a guy came up to demosthenes um and once a guy came up to deases and said deases tell me what are deases and said deases tell me what are deases and said deases tell me what are the three most important things in the three most important things in the three most important things in giving a speech and deasi said well they giving a speech and deasi said well they giving a speech and deasi said well they are delivery delivery and delivery that are delivery delivery and delivery that are delivery delivery and delivery that even the most brilliant speech if even the most brilliant speech if even the most brilliant speech if accompanied by a boring delivery is accompanied by a boring delivery is accompanied by a boring delivery is going to be less effective than a going to be less effective than a going to be less effective than a terrible speech given in an engaging and terrible speech given in an engaging and terrible speech given in an engaging and exciting or funny way speaking of modern exciting or funny way speaking of modern exciting or funny way speaking of modern day and gestures what do you think of uh day and gestures what do you think of uh day and gestures what do you think of uh uh Donald Trump who has these very uh Donald Trump who has these very uh Donald Trump who has these very unique kind of gestures I think there's unique kind of gestures I think there's unique kind of gestures I think there's uh I don't know to degree to is true but uh I don't know to degree to is true but uh I don't know to degree to is true but he kind of uses these handshakes when he he kind of uses these handshakes when he he kind of uses these handshakes when he pulls people in that kind of stuff what pulls people in that kind of stuff what pulls people in that kind of stuff what what do you make of that I mean Trump what do you make of that I mean Trump what do you make of that I mean Trump gesticulates a lot but it's a fairly

gesticulates a lot but it's a fairly gesticulates a lot but it's a fairly narrow set of gestures I mean if you narrow set of gestures I mean if you narrow set of gestures I mean if you watch him for a bit he kind of has the watch him for a bit he kind of has the watch him for a bit he kind of has the same small set of gestures and they're same small set of gestures and they're same small set of gestures and they're not I want to say they're not natural in not I want to say they're not natural in not I want to say they're not natural in that they're not kind of illustrating that they're not kind of illustrating that they're not kind of illustrating what he's saying it's more just what he's saying it's more just what he's saying it's more just punctuation points I think of his as punctuation points I think of his as punctuation points I think of his as more kind of these punctuation points more kind of these punctuation points more kind of these punctuation points for just going along with what he's for just going along with what he's for just going along with what he's saying there are speakers who truly can saying there are speakers who truly can saying there are speakers who truly can use their hands and arms and faces use their hands and arms and faces use their hands and arms and faces creatively um and you watch them and creatively um and you watch them and creatively um and you watch them and it's really enhancing the speech um I it's really enhancing the speech um I it's really enhancing the speech um I mean just historically uh you know mean just historically uh you know mean just historically uh you know Martin Luther King he's famous for a lot Martin Luther King he's famous for a lot Martin Luther King he's famous for a lot of good speeches content he was a good of good speeches content he was a good of good speeches content he was a good jtic too um he knew how to use his body jtic too um he knew how to use his body jtic too um he knew how to use his body on the other hand Adolf Hitler was a on the other hand Adolf Hitler was a on the other hand Adolf Hitler was a phenomenal justicul if you watch some of phenomenal justicul if you watch some of phenomenal justicul if you watch some of his speeches even just like turn off the his speeches even just like turn off the his speeches even just like turn off the sound and watch them he's doing all sound and watch them he's doing all sound and watch them he's doing all kinds of stuff and he's really kinds of stuff and he's really kinds of stuff and he's really emphasizing his points in a very emphasizing his points in a very emphasizing his points in a very creative way and this is what's creative way and this is what's creative way and this is what's fascinating about oratory in public fascinating about oratory in public fascinating about oratory in public speaking is it's this two-edged sword speaking is it's this two-edged sword speaking is it's this two-edged sword you can use these techniques for good or you can use these techniques for good or you can use these techniques for good or you can absolutely use them for evil you you can absolutely use them for evil you you can absolutely use them for evil you know yeah um so the very same techniques know yeah um so the very same techniques know yeah um so the very same techniques in the hands of you know MLK you say in the hands of you know MLK you say in the hands of you know MLK you say this is wonderful this is fantastic in this is wonderful this is fantastic in this is wonderful this is fantastic in the hands of Hitler you say this is the hands of Hitler you say this is the hands of Hitler you say this is awful look he's persuading a nation to awful look he's persuading a nation to awful look he's persuading a nation to commit atrocities I encourage people to commit atrocities I encourage people to commit atrocities I encourage people to watch the speeches of Hitler the oratory watch the speeches of Hitler the oratory watch the speeches of Hitler the oratory skill there to be able to skill there to be able to skill there to be able to channel uh the resentment and the channel uh the resentment and the channel uh the resentment and the frustration of a

frustration of a frustration of a people and uh control it and directed people and uh control it and directed people and uh control it and directed any direction he wants yes through any direction he wants yes through any direction he wants yes through speaking alone yeah it's the visual speaking alone yeah it's the visual speaking alone yeah it's the visual embodiment of the words where he's embodiment of the words where he's embodiment of the words where he's talking about you know vmar Germany talking about you know vmar Germany talking about you know vmar Germany being taken advantage of supposedly and being taken advantage of supposedly and being taken advantage of supposedly and all this stuff um you're right he's all this stuff um you're right he's all this stuff um you're right he's channeling the resentment uh of the channeling the resentment uh of the channeling the resentment uh of the people and and using that to his people and and using that to his people and and using that to his personal advantage and and for cynical personal advantage and and for cynical personal advantage and and for cynical uh evil really purposes um but orator is uh evil really purposes um but orator is uh evil really purposes um but orator is like that you know it's the question I like that you know it's the question I like that you know it's the question I always end up asking my students is always end up asking my students is always end up asking my students is after studying uh cicerone and all these after studying uh cicerone and all these after studying uh cicerone and all these techniques I say okay this is great techniques I say okay this is great techniques I say okay this is great oratory but do you like this is this oratory but do you like this is this oratory but do you like this is this good that this works on human beings uh good that this works on human beings uh good that this works on human beings uh I remember no chamski once was asked why I remember no chamski once was asked why I remember no chamski once was asked why do you speak in such a monotone way and do you speak in such a monotone way and do you speak in such a monotone way and he said well I want the truth of my he said well I want the truth of my he said well I want the truth of my statement the contents of my statements statement the contents of my statements statement the contents of my statements to speak that uh I don't want you to uh to speak that uh I don't want you to uh to speak that uh I don't want you to uh get deluded by me because I'm such a get deluded by me because I'm such a get deluded by me because I'm such a carismatic and eloquent speaker uh the carismatic and eloquent speaker uh the carismatic and eloquent speaker uh the more monotone I speak the more you will more monotone I speak the more you will more monotone I speak the more you will listen to the content of the words right listen to the content of the words right listen to the content of the words right I want you just focusing on the content I want you just focusing on the content I want you just focusing on the content and not being distracted I'll tell you and not being distracted I'll tell you and not being distracted I'll tell you also with Cicero uh one of the things also with Cicero uh one of the things also with Cicero uh one of the things that he and other uh people who write that he and other uh people who write that he and other uh people who write about Roman oratory do is to say and you about Roman oratory do is to say and you about Roman oratory do is to say and you can do this stuff badly in which case it can do this stuff badly in which case it can do this stuff badly in which case it backfires horribly so you can have backfires horribly so you can have backfires horribly so you can have people who attempt to gesticulate again people who attempt to gesticulate again people who attempt to gesticulate again modern politicians you'll see this modern politicians you'll see this modern politicians you'll see this sometime where they feel like I'm sometime where they feel like I'm sometime where they feel like I'm supposed to be making hand gestures and supposed to be making hand gestures and supposed to be making hand gestures and they're terrible at it and it undercuts they're terrible at it and it undercuts they're terrible at it and it undercuts it and and Cicero and quenan giv some it and and Cicero and quenan giv some it and and Cicero and quenan giv some very amusing examples from ancient Rome

very amusing examples from ancient Rome very amusing examples from ancient Rome so like he says there was this one guy so like he says there was this one guy so like he says there was this one guy who when he spoke looked like he was who when he spoke looked like he was who when he spoke looked like he was trying to swat away flies you know trying to swat away flies you know trying to swat away flies you know because there were just these awkward because there were just these awkward because there were just these awkward gestures or another who looked like he gestures or another who looked like he gestures or another who looked like he was trying to balance in a boat like in was trying to balance in a boat like in was trying to balance in a boat like in a in you know choppy seas and my a in you know choppy seas and my a in you know choppy seas and my favorite is there was one order who favorite is there was one order who favorite is there was one order who supposedly was prone to making supposedly was prone to making supposedly was prone to making I guess kind of languid Supple motions I guess kind of languid Supple motions I guess kind of languid Supple motions and so they actually named a dance after and so they actually named a dance after and so they actually named a dance after this guy and his name was uh tius and so this guy and his name was uh tius and so this guy and his name was uh tius and so Romans could do the Titus which is this Romans could do the Titus which is this Romans could do the Titus which is this dance that was imitating this order who dance that was imitating this order who dance that was imitating this order who had these you know kind of comically bad had these you know kind of comically bad had these you know kind of comically bad uh gesticulation so not enough uh gesticulation so not enough uh gesticulation so not enough gesticulation is a problem too much gesticulation is a problem too much gesticulation is a problem too much gesticulation is a problem you have to gesticulation is a problem you have to gesticulation is a problem you have to hit the sweet spot it has to seem hit the sweet spot it has to seem hit the sweet spot it has to seem natural it has to seem varied uh it has natural it has to seem varied uh it has natural it has to seem varied uh it has to conform to the meaning of the words to conform to the meaning of the words to conform to the meaning of the words not distract from it yeah natural to not distract from it yeah natural to not distract from it yeah natural to your like authentic to who you are which your like authentic to who you are which your like authentic to who you are which is uh when people try to copy the gestur is uh when people try to copy the gestur is uh when people try to copy the gestur of another person it usually doesn't go of another person it usually doesn't go of another person it usually doesn't go well you have to kind of uh yeah you well you have to kind of uh yeah you well you have to kind of uh yeah you have to interpret integrate into your have to interpret integrate into your have to interpret integrate into your own personality and so on but gestures own personality and so on but gestures own personality and so on but gestures is is a really fun I I enjoyed my is is a really fun I I enjoyed my is is a really fun I I enjoyed my dissertation a lot doing that because dissertation a lot doing that because dissertation a lot doing that because what I was trying to do there was to what I was trying to do there was to what I was trying to do there was to literally reconstruct them so to say literally reconstruct them so to say literally reconstruct them so to say what were the actual gestures and I did what were the actual gestures and I did what were the actual gestures and I did that by comparing uh the literary that by comparing uh the literary that by comparing uh the literary account the handbooks with again Roman account the handbooks with again Roman account the handbooks with again Roman art looking at statues of Romans and art looking at statues of Romans and art looking at statues of Romans and things and just trying to say okay what things and just trying to say okay what things and just trying to say okay what what were some of the gestures they what were some of the gestures they what were some of the gestures they actually used here and in that way the actually used here and in that way the actually used here and in that way the people from that time come to life in people from that time come to life in people from that time come to life in your mind and your work which is is fasc

your mind and your work which is is fasc your mind and your work which is is fasc it's this pragmatic thing I want to know it's this pragmatic thing I want to know it's this pragmatic thing I want to know okay how does this okay how does this okay how does this work uh could we talk about the role of work uh could we talk about the role of work uh could we talk about the role of religion in uh the Roman religion in uh the Roman religion in uh the Roman Empire what's the story there I mean Empire what's the story there I mean Empire what's the story there I mean religion's interesting because religion's interesting because religion's interesting because in my mind the uh rise to dominance uh in my mind the uh rise to dominance uh in my mind the uh rise to dominance uh in a lot of the world of monotheistic in a lot of the world of monotheistic in a lot of the world of monotheistic religions is one of the huge sort of religions is one of the huge sort of religions is one of the huge sort of turning points um because it's just such turning points um because it's just such turning points um because it's just such a different mentality I mean it's it's a different mentality I mean it's it's a different mentality I mean it's it's very very different where you say very very different where you say very very different where you say there's one God and it's my God versus there's one God and it's my God versus there's one God and it's my God versus okay I believe in this God but there's okay I believe in this God but there's okay I believe in this God but there's an infinite number of legitimate gods an infinite number of legitimate gods an infinite number of legitimate gods and nowadays particularly in the west we and nowadays particularly in the west we and nowadays particularly in the west we tend to view the monotheistic tend to view the monotheistic tend to view the monotheistic perspective as the norm um but for you perspective as the norm um but for you perspective as the norm um but for you know more than half of human history it know more than half of human history it know more than half of human history it was not um you know it was the used to was not um you know it was the used to was not um you know it was the used to be the notion in a lot of Roman history be the notion in a lot of Roman history be the notion in a lot of Roman history up until about 300 ad uh the idea was up until about 300 ad uh the idea was up until about 300 ad uh the idea was well there's just a ton of gods floating well there's just a ton of gods floating well there's just a ton of gods floating around and you know maybe you worship around and you know maybe you worship around and you know maybe you worship that one and I worship these two that I that one and I worship these two that I that one and I worship these two that I like and the guy across the street like and the guy across the street like and the guy across the street worships the oak tree in his backyard worships the oak tree in his backyard worships the oak tree in his backyard and it's all good um they're all and it's all good um they're all and it's all good um they're all legitimate things versus oh no no no now legitimate things versus oh no no no now legitimate things versus oh no no no now there is one God and only one God that's there is one God and only one God that's there is one God and only one God that's the correct answer and as soon as you do the correct answer and as soon as you do the correct answer and as soon as you do that religion becomes foregrounded in that religion becomes foregrounded in that religion becomes foregrounded in your decision making much more I mean your decision making much more I mean your decision making much more I mean the Romans had religion but it wasn't the Romans had religion but it wasn't the Romans had religion but it wasn't really driving anything if you know what really driving anything if you know what really driving anything if you know what I mean it it was it was auxiliary to

I mean it it was it was auxiliary to I mean it it was it was auxiliary to things rather than a central Force so things rather than a central Force so things rather than a central Force so for a lot of uh Roman history you had for a lot of uh Roman history you had for a lot of uh Roman history you had standard kind of you know I guess Pagan standard kind of you know I guess Pagan standard kind of you know I guess Pagan polytheism where there's a bunch of gods polytheism where there's a bunch of gods polytheism where there's a bunch of gods there's certain Gods who are associated there's certain Gods who are associated there's certain Gods who are associated with the Roman state um and there would with the Roman state um and there would with the Roman state um and there would be prayer said to those Gods on behalf be prayer said to those Gods on behalf be prayer said to those Gods on behalf of the Roman state but it wasn't really of the Roman state but it wasn't really of the Roman state but it wasn't really you know you weren't trying to execute you know you weren't trying to execute you know you weren't trying to execute the will of Zeus or something or of the will of Zeus or something or of the will of Zeus or something or of Jupiter or Mars or anybody else and in Jupiter or Mars or anybody else and in Jupiter or Mars or anybody else and in your private life it was the same thing your private life it was the same thing your private life it was the same thing you might ask certain gods for help but you might ask certain gods for help but you might ask certain gods for help but it wasn't as much of a dominant thing in it wasn't as much of a dominant thing in it wasn't as much of a dominant thing in your own existence um so I think that's your own existence um so I think that's your own existence um so I think that's a real transition point where religion a real transition point where religion a real transition point where religion started to become so foregrounded and as started to become so foregrounded and as started to become so foregrounded and as soon as you get the monotheistic soon as you get the monotheistic soon as you get the monotheistic religion religion religion um Judaism Christianity and Islam in um Judaism Christianity and Islam in um Judaism Christianity and Islam in particular it really shifts how people particular it really shifts how people particular it really shifts how people start to think about themselves and start to think about themselves and start to think about themselves and relationship to the world around them so relationship to the world around them so relationship to the world around them so Jesus was born during the rule of Jesus was born during the rule of Jesus was born during the rule of Emperor Augustus yep which is kind of Emperor Augustus yep which is kind of Emperor Augustus yep which is kind of neat that you know really influential neat that you know really influential neat that you know really influential people in the realm of political events people in the realm of political events people in the realm of political events and religious events coexisted uh what and religious events coexisted uh what and religious events coexisted uh what are the are the are the odds I mean yeah there's certain moments odds I mean yeah there's certain moments odds I mean yeah there's certain moments in history where just a lot of in history where just a lot of in history where just a lot of interesting powerful people come interesting powerful people come interesting powerful people come together and make history um so and he together and make history um so and he together and make history um so and he was crucified under Emperor tiberious was crucified under Emperor tiberious was crucified under Emperor tiberious rule yep um why were the ideas of Jesus rule yep um why were the ideas of Jesus rule yep um why were the ideas of Jesus uh seen as a threat by the emperor the uh seen as a threat by the emperor the uh seen as a threat by the emperor the thing that causes conflicts um between thing that causes conflicts um between thing that causes conflicts um between the Romans and Christians is is a little

the Romans and Christians is is a little the Romans and Christians is is a little bit strange it's it's all with bit strange it's it's all with bit strange it's it's all with this where the Romans had a tradition of this where the Romans had a tradition of this where the Romans had a tradition of on the emperor's birthday sort of saying on the emperor's birthday sort of saying on the emperor's birthday sort of saying a prayer basically wishing him good luck a prayer basically wishing him good luck a prayer basically wishing him good luck but technically it's in the form of but technically it's in the form of but technically it's in the form of sacrificing to that part of the emperor sacrificing to that part of the emperor sacrificing to that part of the emperor that might become Divine after his death that might become Divine after his death that might become Divine after his death so to the Romans this is the equivalent so to the Romans this is the equivalent so to the Romans this is the equivalent of a a patriotism act uh saying you know of a a patriotism act uh saying you know of a a patriotism act uh saying you know the Pledge of Allegiance or something to the Pledge of Allegiance or something to the Pledge of Allegiance or something to the country but of course to Christians the country but of course to Christians the country but of course to Christians this is worshiping another God and I this is worshiping another God and I this is worshiping another God and I think there's almost a failure of think there's almost a failure of think there's almost a failure of communication here that the Romans just communication here that the Romans just communication here that the Romans just at least initially didn't quite at least initially didn't quite at least initially didn't quite understand this is really problematic understand this is really problematic understand this is really problematic for these people because they're coming for these people because they're coming for these people because they're coming from a polytheistic perspective where from a polytheistic perspective where from a polytheistic perspective where yeah everybody every body has different yeah everybody every body has different yeah everybody every body has different gods so what this isn't a a religious gods so what this isn't a a religious gods so what this isn't a a religious problem this is a um a political one problem this is a um a political one problem this is a um a political one that why AR why won't you wish you know that why AR why won't you wish you know that why AR why won't you wish you know send good wishes to the emperor if send good wishes to the emperor if send good wishes to the emperor if you're a loyal Roman this is something you're a loyal Roman this is something you're a loyal Roman this is something you should want to do um and many of the you should want to do um and many of the you should want to do um and many of the early Christians I think would have been early Christians I think would have been early Christians I think would have been fine with that but it took the form of fine with that but it took the form of fine with that but it took the form of what they were asked to be do was to what they were asked to be do was to what they were asked to be do was to basically worship another God um and basically worship another God um and basically worship another God um and that was the sticking point and this is that was the sticking point and this is that was the sticking point and this is where I think movies have kind of warped where I think movies have kind of warped where I think movies have kind of warped some of our images of Roman history that some of our images of Roman history that some of our images of Roman history that Hollywood loves to depict very early Hollywood loves to depict very early Hollywood loves to depict very early Christians and I'm talking like first Christians and I'm talking like first Christians and I'm talking like first 200 years here after uh the ministry of 200 years here after uh the ministry of 200 years here after uh the ministry of Christ as um you know a group that all Christ as um you know a group that all Christ as um you know a group that all the Romans were obsessed with that they the Romans were obsessed with that they the Romans were obsessed with that they were constantly trying to persecute and were constantly trying to persecute and were constantly trying to persecute and all this and honestly I think the Romans all this and honestly I think the Romans all this and honestly I think the Romans at that point were more just sort of

at that point were more just sort of at that point were more just sort of indifferent or didn't know what was indifferent or didn't know what was indifferent or didn't know what was going on and if you look at some of the going on and if you look at some of the going on and if you look at some of the primary sources of that time I mean primary sources of that time I mean primary sources of that time I mean there's this very famous letter by a guy there's this very famous letter by a guy there's this very famous letter by a guy named plenny who was a Roman governor of named plenny who was a Roman governor of named plenny who was a Roman governor of a province in the East and he has the a province in the East and he has the a province in the East and he has the habit of writing letters to the Roman habit of writing letters to the Roman habit of writing letters to the Roman Emperor the time Who was traun every Emperor the time Who was traun every Emperor the time Who was traun every time he had a problem with being time he had a problem with being time he had a problem with being governor and so this is great this is governor and so this is great this is governor and so this is great this is the two highest governmental officials the two highest governmental officials the two highest governmental officials in the Roman World sort of hammering out in the Roman World sort of hammering out in the Roman World sort of hammering out policy between them right the emperor policy between them right the emperor policy between them right the emperor and one of his Governors and so this is and one of his Governors and so this is and one of his Governors and so this is about a 100 years uh 100 AD about and about a 100 years uh 100 AD about and about a 100 years uh 100 AD about and plenty says Hey Emperor I I had this plenty says Hey Emperor I I had this plenty says Hey Emperor I I had this issue I had these people come before me issue I had these people come before me issue I had these people come before me called Christians I don't know what to called Christians I don't know what to called Christians I don't know what to do with them what should my policy be do with them what should my policy be do with them what should my policy be and here's what I know about them and and here's what I know about them and and here's what I know about them and what he knows is almost nothing I mean what he knows is almost nothing I mean what he knows is almost nothing I mean it's it's this almost comic like it's it's this almost comic like it's it's this almost comic like garbling and you know they have this garbling and you know they have this garbling and you know they have this weird thing where they get together on weird thing where they get together on weird thing where they get together on somay of the week and they they sort of somay of the week and they they sort of somay of the week and they they sort of swear Oaths to one another not to do bad swear Oaths to one another not to do bad swear Oaths to one another not to do bad stuff which is of course his garbled stuff which is of course his garbled stuff which is of course his garbled understanding of the Ten Commandments understanding of the Ten Commandments understanding of the Ten Commandments you know um and then they have breakfast you know um and then they have breakfast you know um and then they have breakfast together and they eat food and this is together and they eat food and this is together and they eat food and this is communion but he doesn't get that that's communion but he doesn't get that that's communion but he doesn't get that that's what's going on and so he he's really what's going on and so he he's really what's going on and so he he's really ignorant but I think that the broader ignorant but I think that the broader ignorant but I think that the broader point is okay this is one of the best point is okay this is one of the best point is okay this is one of the best educated best traveled Romans who has educated best traveled Romans who has educated best traveled Romans who has the most experience in the Empire has the most experience in the Empire has the most experience in the Empire has been all over the Empire and what does been all over the Empire and what does been all over the Empire and what does he know about Christianity basically he know about Christianity basically he know about Christianity basically nothing so if if one of the best nothing so if if one of the best nothing so if if one of the best educated most widely traveled guys

educated most widely traveled guys educated most widely traveled guys really doesn't know much about them that really doesn't know much about them that really doesn't know much about them that kind of suggests that not many people kind of suggests that not many people kind of suggests that not many people did at this point in time at this time did at this point in time at this time did at this point in time at this time was a fringe movement that very French I was a fringe movement that very French I was a fringe movement that very French I mean it was one of you know hundreds of mean it was one of you know hundreds of mean it was one of you know hundreds of little mystery religions the Romans sort little mystery religions the Romans sort little mystery religions the Romans sort of thought him as and these are you know of thought him as and these are you know of thought him as and these are you know religions that have some sort of religions that have some sort of religions that have some sort of revealed knowledge and that appealed revealed knowledge and that appealed revealed knowledge and that appealed make more personal appeals to people now make more personal appeals to people now make more personal appeals to people now stepping back from this in a broad way stepping back from this in a broad way stepping back from this in a broad way um I think you can say that Christianity um I think you can say that Christianity um I think you can say that Christianity really was different in some ways and really was different in some ways and really was different in some ways and had some things that maybe the Romans had some things that maybe the Romans had some things that maybe the Romans should rightfully have viewed as a should rightfully have viewed as a should rightfully have viewed as a threat I mean you know the Romans are uh threat I mean you know the Romans are uh threat I mean you know the Romans are uh people very focused on this world right people very focused on this world right people very focused on this world right citizenship what you do Christianity in citizenship what you do Christianity in citizenship what you do Christianity in essence has a focus on the next World so essence has a focus on the next World so essence has a focus on the next World so this world isn't as important as what this world isn't as important as what this world isn't as important as what you're setting yourself up for and even you're setting yourself up for and even you're setting yourself up for and even worse from a Roman perspective I'm kind worse from a Roman perspective I'm kind worse from a Roman perspective I'm kind of saying okay if I were a Roman Romans of saying okay if I were a Roman Romans of saying okay if I were a Roman Romans are all about making distinctions are all about making distinctions are all about making distinctions between people citizen non-citizen uh between people citizen non-citizen uh between people citizen non-citizen uh man woman free slave Christianity comes man woman free slave Christianity comes man woman free slave Christianity comes along and says in God's eyes you're all along and says in God's eyes you're all along and says in God's eyes you're all equal now that's a pretty problematic equal now that's a pretty problematic equal now that's a pretty problematic idea if you're deeply invested in in idea if you're deeply invested in in idea if you're deeply invested in in Roman hierarchy and I think it is no Roman hierarchy and I think it is no Roman hierarchy and I think it is no surprise that among the earliest surprise that among the earliest surprise that among the earliest converts to Christianity are women and converts to Christianity are women and converts to Christianity are women and slaves and in particular female slaves slaves and in particular female slaves slaves and in particular female slaves now who are they they're the people at now who are they they're the people at now who are they they're the people at the rock bottom of the Roman hierarchy the rock bottom of the Roman hierarchy the rock bottom of the Roman hierarchy of status right which the Romans are

of status right which the Romans are of status right which the Romans are obsess with status but here's a religion obsess with status but here's a religion obsess with status but here's a religion that says that doesn't matter and in that says that doesn't matter and in that says that doesn't matter and in that same letter to plenty um plenty that same letter to plenty um plenty that same letter to plenty um plenty says okay and this group of Christians says okay and this group of Christians says okay and this group of Christians I've heard about their leaders are two I've heard about their leaders are two I've heard about their leaders are two female slaves they call deaconesses now female slaves they call deaconesses now female slaves they call deaconesses now this is really early this is before the this is really early this is before the this is really early this is before the CHR the C the church exists right CHR the C the church exists right CHR the C the church exists right there's no church structure yet and who there's no church structure yet and who there's no church structure yet and who is leading the local Congregation of is leading the local Congregation of is leading the local Congregation of Christians to slave women um so that's Christians to slave women um so that's Christians to slave women um so that's an interesting moment you know and an interesting moment you know and an interesting moment you know and that's not necessarily the image we get that's not necessarily the image we get that's not necessarily the image we get of early Christianity but you can see of early Christianity but you can see of early Christianity but you can see how for people in this social structure how for people in this social structure how for people in this social structure that would be very appealing to them and that would be very appealing to them and that would be very appealing to them and in some ways yeah it is sort of a threat in some ways yeah it is sort of a threat in some ways yeah it is sort of a threat to the Roman system because they're to the Roman system because they're to the Roman system because they're challenging it now the irony is of challenging it now the irony is of challenging it now the irony is of course 300 years after the Life of course 300 years after the Life of course 300 years after the Life of Christ the emperor converts to Christ the emperor converts to Christ the emperor converts to Christianity and another hundred years Christianity and another hundred years Christianity and another hundred years later under theodosius it becomes the later under theodosius it becomes the later under theodosius it becomes the official religion of the Roman Empire so official religion of the Roman Empire so official religion of the Roman Empire so all of a sudden you have this flip-flop all of a sudden you have this flip-flop all of a sudden you have this flip-flop where now the state itself is not just where now the state itself is not just where now the state itself is not just converted to Christianity but actively converted to Christianity but actively converted to Christianity but actively promoting it um and now persecuting promoting it um and now persecuting promoting it um and now persecuting pagans pagans pagans um and the reason the Emperors do that um and the reason the Emperors do that um and the reason the Emperors do that is one of the biggest problems for is one of the biggest problems for is one of the biggest problems for Emperors at that point in time is Emperors at that point in time is Emperors at that point in time is legitimacy that there's tons of Civil legitimacy that there's tons of Civil legitimacy that there's tons of Civil Wars where you have lots of different Wars where you have lots of different Wars where you have lots of different people saying I'm Emperor so lots of people saying I'm Emperor so lots of people saying I'm Emperor so lots of generals declaring themselves Emperor generals declaring themselves Emperor generals declaring themselves Emperor now under a now under a now under a polytheistic religion it it's that's

polytheistic religion it it's that's polytheistic religion it it's that's just you're all just fighting it doesn't just you're all just fighting it doesn't just you're all just fighting it doesn't matter but if you say there is only one matter but if you say there is only one matter but if you say there is only one God then if that God pick someone to be God then if that God pick someone to be God then if that God pick someone to be his Emperor they're the only legitimate his Emperor they're the only legitimate his Emperor they're the only legitimate Emperor right so there is a real Emperor right so there is a real Emperor right so there is a real advantage to Emperors now becoming advantage to Emperors now becoming advantage to Emperors now becoming Christian because if they can say we're Christian because if they can say we're Christian because if they can say we're now a Christian Empire and there's only now a Christian Empire and there's only now a Christian Empire and there's only one God and I'm the guy that God picked one God and I'm the guy that God picked one God and I'm the guy that God picked to be emperor that means all these other to be emperor that means all these other to be emperor that means all these other people claiming to be Emperors are people claiming to be Emperors are people claiming to be Emperors are illegitimate do you think that or is illegitimate do you think that or is illegitimate do you think that or is there other factors that explain why there other factors that explain why there other factors that explain why Christianity was able to spread well I Christianity was able to spread well I Christianity was able to spread well I mean that that's why it's appealing to mean that that's why it's appealing to mean that that's why it's appealing to the Emperors and and we're talking here the Emperors and and we're talking here the Emperors and and we're talking here you know I mean the the religious answer you know I mean the the religious answer you know I mean the the religious answer is people see the light right it's it's is people see the light right it's it's is people see the light right it's it's a faith-based thing I'm looking at this a faith-based thing I'm looking at this a faith-based thing I'm looking at this as a historian so uh putting aside you as a historian so uh putting aside you as a historian so uh putting aside you know religious feeling and saying okay know religious feeling and saying okay know religious feeling and saying okay if I'm doing an analysis of this as a if I'm doing an analysis of this as a if I'm doing an analysis of this as a social phenomenon what would be social phenomenon what would be social phenomenon what would be appealing to people and there is that appealing to people and there is that appealing to people and there is that very compelling reason for Emperors to very compelling reason for Emperors to very compelling reason for Emperors to want to go to Christianity because it want to go to Christianity because it want to go to Christianity because it helps them with their biggest problem helps them with their biggest problem helps them with their biggest problem which is legitimacy now if you're an which is legitimacy now if you're an which is legitimacy now if you're an ordinary person what is the appeal of ordinary person what is the appeal of ordinary person what is the appeal of Christianity well we already looked at a Christianity well we already looked at a Christianity well we already looked at a couple of them one of them is that you couple of them one of them is that you couple of them one of them is that you know it promises you a reward in the know it promises you a reward in the know it promises you a reward in the afterlife um I mean the Roman and Greek afterlife um I mean the Roman and Greek afterlife um I mean the Roman and Greek Notions of the afterlife aren't that Notions of the afterlife aren't that Notions of the afterlife aren't that appealing um either you just sort of appealing um either you just sort of appealing um either you just sort of turn into dust or at best you turn into turn into dust or at best you turn into turn into dust or at best you turn into this kind of ghost thing that floats this kind of ghost thing that floats this kind of ghost thing that floats around something that looks like a Greek around something that looks like a Greek around something that looks like a Greek gymnasium which is like a bunch of gymnasium which is like a bunch of gymnasium which is like a bunch of grassy Fields it's not so hot um so here

grassy Fields it's not so hot um so here grassy Fields it's not so hot um so here you're offered the idea of like oh you you're offered the idea of like oh you you're offered the idea of like oh you go to paradise forever that sounds go to paradise forever that sounds go to paradise forever that sounds really good and second for a lot of really good and second for a lot of really good and second for a lot of people in Roman society that notion of people in Roman society that notion of people in Roman society that notion of here's something that says I'm valuable here's something that says I'm valuable here's something that says I'm valuable as a human being it doesn't matter as a human being it doesn't matter as a human being it doesn't matter whether I'm free or slave it doesn't whether I'm free or slave it doesn't whether I'm free or slave it doesn't matter whether I'm Roman or non-roman it matter whether I'm Roman or non-roman it matter whether I'm Roman or non-roman it doesn't matter if I'm a man or woman doesn't matter if I'm a man or woman doesn't matter if I'm a man or woman here's something that says I have equal here's something that says I have equal here's something that says I have equal value that's enormously appealing and value that's enormously appealing and value that's enormously appealing and finally early Christians I mean they finally early Christians I mean they finally early Christians I mean they honestly allow them do good works they honestly allow them do good works they honestly allow them do good works they take care of the sick they feed the poor take care of the sick they feed the poor take care of the sick they feed the poor I mean if you look at Jesus in The I mean if you look at Jesus in The I mean if you look at Jesus in The Sermon on the Mount that's the stuff he Sermon on the Mount that's the stuff he Sermon on the Mount that's the stuff he really Hammers If we look at you know really Hammers If we look at you know really Hammers If we look at you know the words of Jesus when he says what do the words of Jesus when he says what do the words of Jesus when he says what do you do to be a Christian a lot of it is you do to be a Christian a lot of it is you do to be a Christian a lot of it is take care of the unfortunate um you know take care of the unfortunate um you know take care of the unfortunate um you know take care of people who are sick take take care of people who are sick take take care of people who are sick take care of people who are starving um and a care of people who are starving um and a care of people who are starving um and a lot of the early Christians really take lot of the early Christians really take lot of the early Christians really take that seriously so they are helping that seriously so they are helping that seriously so they are helping people out so that's appealing they're people out so that's appealing they're people out so that's appealing they're the good kind of populist and populist the good kind of populist and populist the good kind of populist and populist messages spread let me ask you about spread let me ask you about gladiators switch a pace here what role gladiators switch a pace here what role gladiators switch a pace here what role did they play in uh Roman did they play in uh Roman did they play in uh Roman society I mean okay Gladiator games society I mean okay Gladiator games society I mean okay Gladiator games obviously become a popular form of obviously become a popular form of obviously become a popular form of entertainment and they're one of the entertainment and they're one of the entertainment and they're one of the ones that's captured people's ones that's captured people's ones that's captured people's imaginations for all sorts of reasons I imaginations for all sorts of reasons I imaginations for all sorts of reasons I mean it's dramatic but also I think it's mean it's dramatic but also I think it's mean it's dramatic but also I think it's that apparent contradiction that in so that apparent contradiction that in so that apparent contradiction that in so many ways Roman society seems familiar many ways Roman society seems familiar many ways Roman society seems familiar to us uh in so many ways it seems to us uh in so many ways it seems to us uh in so many ways it seems sophisticated and appealing uh law is sophisticated and appealing uh law is sophisticated and appealing uh law is wonderful all this but yet for fun they

wonderful all this but yet for fun they wonderful all this but yet for fun they watched people fight to the death so how watched people fight to the death so how watched people fight to the death so how do you reconcile these things um do you reconcile these things um do you reconcile these things um Gladiators I find very interesting Gladiators I find very interesting Gladiators I find very interesting because they're an example of what because they're an example of what because they're an example of what historians call status historians call status historians call status dissonance so it's someone who in dissonance so it's someone who in dissonance so it's someone who in society has high status in some ways and society has high status in some ways and society has high status in some ways and very low or despised status in another very low or despised status in another very low or despised status in another so Gladiators most of them were slaves so Gladiators most of them were slaves so Gladiators most of them were slaves the lowest of the low in Roman society the lowest of the low in Roman society the lowest of the low in Roman society right right right also they're fighting for other people's also they're fighting for other people's also they're fighting for other people's pleasure and dying sometimes for other pleasure and dying sometimes for other pleasure and dying sometimes for other people's pleasure and the Romans had a people's pleasure and the Romans had a people's pleasure and the Romans had a real thing about this like your body real thing about this like your body real thing about this like your body being used for others pleasure uh even a being used for others pleasure uh even a being used for others pleasure uh even a humble working person who hired thems humble working person who hired thems humble working person who hired thems out for labor the Romans thought that out for labor the Romans thought that out for labor the Romans thought that was innately demeaning because you're was innately demeaning because you're was innately demeaning because you're you're you're using your body for you're you're using your body for you're you're using your body for someone else's benefit or pleasure so someone else's benefit or pleasure so someone else's benefit or pleasure so they they didn't have this notion of you they they didn't have this notion of you they they didn't have this notion of you know the Dignity of hard labor or know the Dignity of hard labor or know the Dignity of hard labor or something they thought the only Noble something they thought the only Noble something they thought the only Noble profession was farming okay cuz there profession was farming okay cuz there profession was farming okay cuz there you generate something and you're you generate something and you're you generate something and you're producing it for yourself but if you producing it for yourself but if you producing it for yourself but if you work for someone else you're demeaning work for someone else you're demeaning work for someone else you're demeaning yourself and Gladiators is the worst of yourself and Gladiators is the worst of yourself and Gladiators is the worst of the worst right you're performing for the worst right you're performing for the worst right you're performing for someone else's pleasure so on the one someone else's pleasure so on the one someone else's pleasure so on the one hand they're very low status but on the hand they're very low status but on the hand they're very low status but on the other hand successful Gladiators get other hand successful Gladiators get other hand successful Gladiators get famous people admire them uh women find famous people admire them uh women find famous people admire them uh women find them them them attractive uh you know they're attractive uh you know they're attractive uh you know they're celebrities and so this this is the celebrities and so this this is the celebrities and so this this is the status dissonance right you have these status dissonance right you have these status dissonance right you have these people who on the one hand formally are people who on the one hand formally are people who on the one hand formally are very low status and Society but yet are

very low status and Society but yet are very low status and Society but yet are very popular on the other hand another very popular on the other hand another very popular on the other hand another kind of myth about gladiators is that kind of myth about gladiators is that kind of myth about gladiators is that they were just dying all the time I mean they were just dying all the time I mean they were just dying all the time I mean you watch you know movies and again you watch you know movies and again you watch you know movies and again they'll always throw a bunch of they'll always throw a bunch of they'll always throw a bunch of Gladiators and they all die uh I think Gladiators and they all die uh I think Gladiators and they all die uh I think some scholar did a study of there's like some scholar did a study of there's like some scholar did a study of there's like a hundred fights we know of um where we a hundred fights we know of um where we a hundred fights we know of um where we know some details and I think 10% of know some details and I think 10% of know some details and I think 10% of those ended in the death of one of the those ended in the death of one of the those ended in the death of one of the people so Gladiators are a lot more like people so Gladiators are a lot more like people so Gladiators are a lot more like boxing matches where you're watching a boxing matches where you're watching a boxing matches where you're watching a display of skill between two people who display of skill between two people who display of skill between two people who are more or less evenly matched in terms are more or less evenly matched in terms are more or less evenly matched in terms of their abilities and probably they'll of their abilities and probably they'll of their abilities and probably they'll survive though there's a chance that one survive though there's a chance that one survive though there's a chance that one of them might get injured in fact one of them might get injured in fact one of them might get injured in fact one might die um having said all that in the might die um having said all that in the might die um having said all that in the end you really are having people fight end you really are having people fight end you really are having people fight and potentially die for the pleasure of and potentially die for the pleasure of and potentially die for the pleasure of an audience and anthropologists and an audience and anthropologists and an audience and anthropologists and Roman historians like to speculate why Roman historians like to speculate why Roman historians like to speculate why did the Romans do this um the Romans did the Romans do this um the Romans did the Romans do this um the Romans address it I mean there's a famous uh address it I mean there's a famous uh address it I mean there's a famous uh thing where Roman says we Romans are a thing where Roman says we Romans are a thing where Roman says we Romans are a violent people we're warlike people and violent people we're warlike people and violent people we're warlike people and so it's fitting that we should be so it's fitting that we should be so it's fitting that we should be accustomed to the site of death and accustomed to the site of death and accustomed to the site of death and violence kind of works um there's a more violence kind of works um there's a more violence kind of works um there's a more symbolic interpretation that says the symbolic interpretation that says the symbolic interpretation that says the amphitheater is an expression of Roman amphitheater is an expression of Roman amphitheater is an expression of Roman dominance a symbolic expression because dominance a symbolic expression because dominance a symbolic expression because what you have are all segments of Roman what you have are all segments of Roman what you have are all segments of Roman society gathered together to control the society gathered together to control the society gathered together to control the fate of others fate of others fate of others so you have foreigners you have wild

so you have foreigners you have wild so you have foreigners you have wild animals you have criminals uh you have animals you have criminals uh you have animals you have criminals uh you have other people and we are symbolically other people and we are symbolically other people and we are symbolically asserting our dominance over those asserting our dominance over those asserting our dominance over those groups by determining do you live or do groups by determining do you live or do groups by determining do you live or do you die and that kind of works too and you die and that kind of works too and you die and that kind of works too and the cynical one is humans like violence the cynical one is humans like violence the cynical one is humans like violence I mean when people watch a hockey game I mean when people watch a hockey game I mean when people watch a hockey game what gets the most excited the fight what gets the most excited the fight what gets the most excited the fight when people watch car racing there's a when people watch car racing there's a when people watch car racing there's a crash what's going to be shown on the crash what's going to be shown on the crash what's going to be shown on the news it's the crash trash so there's news it's the crash trash so there's news it's the crash trash so there's something dark in human nature sometimes something dark in human nature sometimes something dark in human nature sometimes that that likes violence and maybe the that that likes violence and maybe the that that likes violence and maybe the Romans are just being more honest about Romans are just being more honest about Romans are just being more honest about it uh than we are I think Dan Carlin has it uh than we are I think Dan Carlin has it uh than we are I think Dan Carlin has a really great episode called painful a really great episode called painful a really great episode called painful tainment MH and uh I think in that tainment MH and uh I think in that tainment MH and uh I think in that episode He suggests the hypothetical episode He suggests the hypothetical episode He suggests the hypothetical that if we did something like a that if we did something like a that if we did something like a Gladiator games today to the death that Gladiator games today to the death that Gladiator games today to the death that like the whole world would tune in yeah like the whole world would tune in yeah like the whole world would tune in yeah if as especially if it was Anonymous if as especially if it was Anonymous if as especially if it was Anonymous right we have a kind of like thin veil right we have a kind of like thin veil right we have a kind of like thin veil of civility underneath which we probably of civility underneath which we probably of civility underneath which we probably would still be something deep within us would still be something deep within us would still be something deep within us would be attracted to that violence yeah would be attracted to that violence yeah would be attracted to that violence yeah I mean yeah there are is is it human I mean yeah there are is is it human I mean yeah there are is is it human nature um you know why do people slow nature um you know why do people slow nature um you know why do people slow down when there's a car wreck and try down when there's a car wreck and try down when there's a car wreck and try and see what's happening on the other and see what's happening on the other and see what's happening on the other hand to be fair I mean there were Romans hand to be fair I mean there were Romans hand to be fair I mean there were Romans at the time who morally objected to them at the time who morally objected to them at the time who morally objected to them and said this this is you know morally and said this this is you know morally and said this this is you know morally degenerate to to take pleasure in this degenerate to to take pleasure in this degenerate to to take pleasure in this and that's wrong so I think at all in and that's wrong so I think at all in and that's wrong so I think at all in all eras you have a diversity of all eras you have a diversity of all eras you have a diversity of opinions there's no unanimous know take opinions there's no unanimous know take opinions there's no unanimous know take on on what this is or what this means so

on on what this is or what this means so on on what this is or what this means so what who usually wore the Gladiators was what who usually wore the Gladiators was what who usually wore the Gladiators was it slaves was it well the most common it slaves was it well the most common it slaves was it well the most common source again is prisoners of waron so uh source again is prisoners of waron so uh source again is prisoners of waron so uh if you conquer some people and they seem if you conquer some people and they seem if you conquer some people and they seem to be warlike uh you might well consign to be warlike uh you might well consign to be warlike uh you might well consign some of them to fight in the arena and some of them to fight in the arena and some of them to fight in the arena and the other thing about gladiators is they the other thing about gladiators is they the other thing about gladiators is they were highly trained professionals so you were highly trained professionals so you were highly trained professionals so you know you're the the Gladiator schools know you're the the Gladiator schools know you're the the Gladiator schools who train them were spending a lot of who train them were spending a lot of who train them were spending a lot of money to train these people and it money to train these people and it money to train these people and it wasn't just we take some guy and throw wasn't just we take some guy and throw wasn't just we take some guy and throw him in into the arena like you see in him in into the arena like you see in him in into the arena like you see in movies all the time uh these were people movies all the time uh these were people movies all the time uh these were people that you'd invested a lot of money in that you'd invested a lot of money in that you'd invested a lot of money in that's why you don't really want to see that's why you don't really want to see that's why you don't really want to see them killed um but yeah mostly they're them killed um but yeah mostly they're them killed um but yeah mostly they're they're prisoners of War I mean in very they're prisoners of War I mean in very they're prisoners of War I mean in very rare instances you might have a free rare instances you might have a free rare instances you might have a free person volunteering or even selling person volunteering or even selling person volunteering or even selling thems uh to fight as gladiators but um thems uh to fight as gladiators but um thems uh to fight as gladiators but um much more common was that and what's much more common was that and what's much more common was that and what's interesting is some people um wouldn't interesting is some people um wouldn't interesting is some people um wouldn't do it I mean there's a lot of instances do it I mean there's a lot of instances do it I mean there's a lot of instances of Gladiators refusing to fight and of Gladiators refusing to fight and of Gladiators refusing to fight and committing suicide which you don't here committing suicide which you don't here committing suicide which you don't here um so like there was one uh German who um so like there was one uh German who um so like there was one uh German who was supposed to fight as a gladiator and was supposed to fight as a gladiator and was supposed to fight as a gladiator and instead he stuck his head between the instead he stuck his head between the instead he stuck his head between the spokes of a wagon that was spinning and spokes of a wagon that was spinning and spokes of a wagon that was spinning and snapped his own neck um there were a snapped his own neck um there were a snapped his own neck um there were a group of 29 Germans who all sort of said group of 29 Germans who all sort of said group of 29 Germans who all sort of said we're not going to fight for the Romans we're not going to fight for the Romans we're not going to fight for the Romans pleasure and they strangled one another pleasure and they strangled one another pleasure and they strangled one another the night before they were supposed to the night before they were supposed to the night before they were supposed to fight um so I mean you have people sort fight um so I mean you have people sort fight um so I mean you have people sort of objecting to being uh complicit in of objecting to being uh complicit in of objecting to being uh complicit in this kind of performance as well and this kind of performance as well and this kind of performance as well and they also had interes in animal yes so they also had interes in animal yes so they also had interes in animal yes so humans fought animals exotic animals and

humans fought animals exotic animals and humans fought animals exotic animals and animals fought animals um the Romans animals fought animals um the Romans animals fought animals um the Romans were a little weird with their animal were a little weird with their animal were a little weird with their animal thing they loved exotic animals but thing they loved exotic animals but thing they loved exotic animals but mostly they like to see the exotic mostly they like to see the exotic mostly they like to see the exotic animals die so I mean they there was an animals die so I mean they there was an animals die so I mean they there was an enormous industry collecting wild beasts enormous industry collecting wild beasts enormous industry collecting wild beasts transporting them to Rome which is no transporting them to Rome which is no transporting them to Rome which is no easy matter to transport elephants and easy matter to transport elephants and easy matter to transport elephants and giraffes and rhinos particularly in you giraffes and rhinos particularly in you giraffes and rhinos particularly in you know this era of Technology but they know this era of Technology but they know this era of Technology but they they were like draining Africa and they were like draining Africa and they were like draining Africa and bringing lions and all these things and bringing lions and all these things and bringing lions and all these things and sacrificing them and what about the sacrificing them and what about the sacrificing them and what about the different venues I mean there's the different venues I mean there's the different venues I mean there's the legendary Coliseum what uh what is the legendary Coliseum what uh what is the legendary Coliseum what uh what is the importance of this place uh well the importance of this place uh well the importance of this place uh well the Coliseum it's real name is the flavan Coliseum it's real name is the flavan Coliseum it's real name is the flavan amphitheater uh is interesting because amphitheater uh is interesting because amphitheater uh is interesting because for a long time Rome Rome always had a for a long time Rome Rome always had a for a long time Rome Rome always had a chariot racing Arena the circus Maximus chariot racing Arena the circus Maximus chariot racing Arena the circus Maximus but it didn't have a permanent but it didn't have a permanent but it didn't have a permanent gladiatorial venue until relatively late gladiatorial venue until relatively late gladiatorial venue until relatively late till about 80 ad so during the reign of till about 80 ad so during the reign of till about 80 ad so during the reign of emperor of emperor of emperor of theasian and he built this thing um so theasian and he built this thing um so theasian and he built this thing um so he built the flavian amphitheater he was he built the flavian amphitheater he was he built the flavian amphitheater he was from the flavian family of Emperors and from the flavian family of Emperors and from the flavian family of Emperors and he did it as a deliberate um Act of he did it as a deliberate um Act of he did it as a deliberate um Act of propaganda so uh before him had been propaganda so uh before him had been propaganda so uh before him had been Nero who was uh sort of seen as a crazy Nero who was uh sort of seen as a crazy Nero who was uh sort of seen as a crazy or bad Emperor and one of Nero's uh or bad Emperor and one of Nero's uh or bad Emperor and one of Nero's uh indulgences is he had built this indulgences is he had built this indulgences is he had built this enormous Palace for himself called the enormous Palace for himself called the enormous Palace for himself called the golden house so it was kind of this golden house so it was kind of this golden house so it was kind of this pleasure palace with $50 dining rooms pleasure palace with $50 dining rooms pleasure palace with $50 dining rooms and all this stuff and it was basically and all this stuff and it was basically and all this stuff and it was basically wasting a ton of money on him right so

wasting a ton of money on him right so wasting a ton of money on him right so right on the site where Nero had his right on the site where Nero had his right on the site where Nero had his Golden House vaspian says I'm going to Golden House vaspian says I'm going to Golden House vaspian says I'm going to erect a new building on top of it that's erect a new building on top of it that's erect a new building on top of it that's going to be for the pleasure of the going to be for the pleasure of the going to be for the pleasure of the people so it was very much a political people so it was very much a political people so it was very much a political statement that my Dynasty is going to be statement that my Dynasty is going to be statement that my Dynasty is going to be about serving Romans not serving about serving Romans not serving about serving Romans not serving ourselves and so that's why he uh builds ourselves and so that's why he uh builds ourselves and so that's why he uh builds the the flavian amphitheater and he the the the flavian amphitheater and he the the the flavian amphitheater and he the funds he uses from it is basically from funds he uses from it is basically from funds he uses from it is basically from from uh looting Jerusalem because the from uh looting Jerusalem because the from uh looting Jerusalem because the other thing he had done just before this other thing he had done just before this other thing he had done just before this is he had sacked Jerusalem and destroyed is he had sacked Jerusalem and destroyed is he had sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple there in fact um he and his the temple there in fact um he and his the temple there in fact um he and his son son son Titus and so this is what he uh now Titus and so this is what he uh now Titus and so this is what he uh now builds in Rome is his gift to the people builds in Rome is his gift to the people builds in Rome is his gift to the people of Rome but it's interesting to think of Rome but it's interesting to think of Rome but it's interesting to think about that place to think about their about that place to think about their about that place to think about their relationship with relationship with relationship with violence um across violence um across violence um across centuries for spectacle watching people centuries for spectacle watching people centuries for spectacle watching people fight and you like you said you know fight and you like you said you know fight and you like you said you know only like 10% of the time it to the only like 10% of the time it to the only like 10% of the time it to the death but I read that still a lot of a death but I read that still a lot of a death but I read that still a lot of a lot of people died a lot of gladi AED lot of people died a lot of gladi AED lot of people died a lot of gladi AED were killed oh yeah there's numbers are were killed oh yeah there's numbers are were killed oh yeah there's numbers are just crazy mean I I read uh just crazy mean I I read uh just crazy mean I I read uh 400,000 dead so this includes Gladiators 400,000 dead so this includes Gladiators 400,000 dead so this includes Gladiators slaves convicts prisoners and and so on slaves convicts prisoners and and so on slaves convicts prisoners and and so on that's a lot of people the the Flaming that's a lot of people the the Flaming that's a lot of people the the Flaming amphithe is really interesting too just amphithe is really interesting too just amphithe is really interesting too just as a piece of technology and as as a piece of technology and as as a piece of technology and as influence on later world I mean almost influence on later world I mean almost influence on later world I mean almost every sporting Arena today owes every sporting Arena today owes every sporting Arena today owes something to the amphithe Coliseum in something to the amphithe Coliseum in something to the amphithe Coliseum in terms of construction and it was terms of construction and it was terms of construction and it was amazingly sophisticated building I mean amazingly sophisticated building I mean amazingly sophisticated building I mean it had you know retractable awnings and

it had you know retractable awnings and it had you know retractable awnings and elevators and ramps that things could elevators and ramps that things could elevators and ramps that things could just pop up into the arena from below just pop up into the arena from below just pop up into the arena from below and um you know it had very and um you know it had very and um you know it had very well-designed passages where everybody well-designed passages where everybody well-designed passages where everybody could file in and file out very could file in and file out very could file in and file out very efficiently and they were all numbered efficiently and they were all numbered efficiently and they were all numbered so I mean it's it's one of I think the so I mean it's it's one of I think the so I mean it's it's one of I think the most influential buildings in history uh most influential buildings in history uh most influential buildings in history uh just because of the way that you know just because of the way that you know just because of the way that you know all these buildings we go to today all these buildings we go to today all these buildings we go to today they're all kind of variant on it and they're all kind of variant on it and they're all kind of variant on it and using some of the ideas from it and the using some of the ideas from it and the using some of the ideas from it and the Romans took their construction seriously Romans took their construction seriously Romans took their construction seriously oh yeah they were good at that so they oh yeah they were good at that so they oh yeah they were good at that so they were excellent Engineers um and and the were excellent Engineers um and and the were excellent Engineers um and and the Romans were excellent Engineers Romans were excellent Engineers Romans were excellent Engineers especially when it came to what you especially when it came to what you especially when it came to what you might think of as humble stuff I mean might think of as humble stuff I mean might think of as humble stuff I mean today we tend to think of oh a Roman today we tend to think of oh a Roman today we tend to think of oh a Roman building is shining White marble right building is shining White marble right building is shining White marble right well the core of that building was well the core of that building was well the core of that building was probably concrete and the marble is just probably concrete and the marble is just probably concrete and the marble is just a superficial facade and if you think a superficial facade and if you think a superficial facade and if you think about the Coliseum in Rome today all the about the Coliseum in Rome today all the about the Coliseum in Rome today all the marble has been stripped off that marble has been stripped off that marble has been stripped off that building and what you see is the building and what you see is the building and what you see is the concrete core the structural core that's concrete core the structural core that's concrete core the structural core that's left and the Romans I mean they didn't left and the Romans I mean they didn't left and the Romans I mean they didn't invent concrete but they just used it invent concrete but they just used it invent concrete but they just used it more creatively than anyone had before more creatively than anyone had before more creatively than anyone had before and if you look at buildings like the and if you look at buildings like the and if you look at buildings like the Greeks built they're all rectilinear Greeks built they're all rectilinear Greeks built they're all rectilinear they're all rectangles or squares and they're all rectangles or squares and they're all rectangles or squares and they always have a lot of columns they always have a lot of columns they always have a lot of columns because you need to hold the roof up the because you need to hold the roof up the because you need to hold the roof up the Romans because of their use of concrete Romans because of their use of concrete Romans because of their use of concrete could build wooden frames they could could build wooden frames they could could build wooden frames they could have curves they could have domes they have curves they could have domes they have curves they could have domes they could have all kinds of stuff and it could have all kinds of stuff and it could have all kinds of stuff and it just explod the architectural just explod the architectural just explod the architectural possibilities they also made a lot of possibilities they also made a lot of possibilities they also made a lot of use of the The Vault so if you cut rocks use of the The Vault so if you cut rocks use of the The Vault so if you cut rocks and arrange them so they form a curve and arrange them so they form a curve and arrange them so they form a curve you can have big vaated spaces um and

you can have big vaated spaces um and you can have big vaated spaces um and they were just brilliant with their mix they were just brilliant with their mix they were just brilliant with their mix of things I mean the pantheon is the of things I mean the pantheon is the of things I mean the pantheon is the best preserved Roman building and it's best preserved Roman building and it's best preserved Roman building and it's another brilliant building incredibly another brilliant building incredibly another brilliant building incredibly influential I mean every every capital influential I mean every every capital influential I mean every every capital building in the world or museum is is an building in the world or museum is is an building in the world or museum is is an imitation of the pantheon you know the imitation of the pantheon you know the imitation of the pantheon you know the capital in Washington DC uh the capital capital in Washington DC uh the capital capital in Washington DC uh the capital in Madison I'm from Wisconsin Austin in Madison I'm from Wisconsin Austin in Madison I'm from Wisconsin Austin Where We Are are now they're all Where We Are are now they're all Where We Are are now they're all pantheons um you know it's a big dome pantheons um you know it's a big dome pantheons um you know it's a big dome with a triangular pediment and some with a triangular pediment and some with a triangular pediment and some columns on the front um so it's just columns on the front um so it's just columns on the front um so it's just amazingly influential building but it's amazingly influential building but it's amazingly influential building but it's brilliant because the way it's brilliant because the way it's brilliant because the way it's constructed is you know the the concrete constructed is you know the the concrete constructed is you know the the concrete at the bottom of the Dome is both at the bottom of the Dome is both at the bottom of the Dome is both thicker and has a denser formulation so thicker and has a denser formulation so thicker and has a denser formulation so it's heavier where it needs to Bear the it's heavier where it needs to Bear the it's heavier where it needs to Bear the weight and then as you get further up weight and then as you get further up weight and then as you get further up the Dome it gets narrower and narrower the Dome it gets narrower and narrower the Dome it gets narrower and narrower and they mix in different types of rock and they mix in different types of rock and they mix in different types of rock so at the top you're using pumis that so at the top you're using pumis that so at the top you're using pumis that very light Volcan Stone so where you very light Volcan Stone so where you very light Volcan Stone so where you want it to be light it's light and it's want it to be light it's light and it's want it to be light it's light and it's here 2,000 years later I mean look here 2,000 years later I mean look here 2,000 years later I mean look around you how many buildings that we're around you how many buildings that we're around you how many buildings that we're building now do you think are going to building now do you think are going to building now do you think are going to be here in 2,000 years um I suspect not be here in 2,000 years um I suspect not be here in 2,000 years um I suspect not many and it's not only that they lasted many and it's not only that they lasted many and it's not only that they lasted but they were beautiful or at least in but they were beautiful or at least in but they were beautiful or at least in our current conception of beauty yeah I our current conception of beauty yeah I our current conception of beauty yeah I mean you know vitruvia you know his mean you know vitruvia you know his mean you know vitruvia you know his principles are things should be principles are things should be principles are things should be functional and they should be functional and they should be functional and they should be aesthetically pleasing so that that aesthetically pleasing so that that aesthetically pleasing so that that that's a winning combination I think that's a winning combination I think that's a winning combination I think yeah they pulled that off pretty well uh yeah they pulled that off pretty well uh yeah they pulled that off pretty well uh if you could talk about the long line of if you could talk about the long line of if you could talk about the long line of Emperors that made up the Roman Empire Emperors that made up the Roman Empire Emperors that made up the Roman Empire uh how were they selected oh boy this uh how were they selected oh boy this uh how were they selected oh boy this this is uh we've been talking about uh this is uh we've been talking about uh this is uh we've been talking about uh augustus's great achievements and how

augustus's great achievements and how augustus's great achievements and how his clever he was with propaganda and his clever he was with propaganda and his clever he was with propaganda and all this is his great failure so his all this is his great failure so his all this is his great failure so his great failure is that he did not solve great failure is that he did not solve great failure is that he did not solve was the problem of succession how do you was the problem of succession how do you was the problem of succession how do you ensure that the next person who follows ensure that the next person who follows ensure that the next person who follows you is is not just the best person but you is is not just the best person but you is is not just the best person but is qualified um and he he fails to do it is qualified um and he he fails to do it is qualified um and he he fails to do it so so the the principle he settles on is so so the the principle he settles on is so so the the principle he settles on is heredity so the nearest blood relative heredity so the nearest blood relative heredity so the nearest blood relative and he goes through all these people all and he goes through all these people all and he goes through all these people all these young kids in his family die he these young kids in his family die he these young kids in his family die he keeps trying to make the heir and he keeps trying to make the heir and he keeps trying to make the heir and he ends up making his Heir Tiberius who he ends up making his Heir Tiberius who he ends up making his Heir Tiberius who he never liked it was his stepson he didn't never liked it was his stepson he didn't never liked it was his stepson he didn't like him but he ends up inheriting it like him but he ends up inheriting it like him but he ends up inheriting it and the next set of Emperors the Julio and the next set of Emperors the Julio and the next set of Emperors the Julio claudians um which is the family that claudians um which is the family that claudians um which is the family that Augustus starts they all basically are Augustus starts they all basically are Augustus starts they all basically are who is the nearest male relative to the who is the nearest male relative to the who is the nearest male relative to the previous Emperor and that's how we get a previous Emperor and that's how we get a previous Emperor and that's how we get a lot of crazy Emperors like Caligula or lot of crazy Emperors like Caligula or lot of crazy Emperors like Caligula or Nero um and then the next family the Nero um and then the next family the Nero um and then the next family the flavians uh the first guy is kind of an flavians uh the first guy is kind of an flavians uh the first guy is kind of an Augustus it's vaspian the one who builds Augustus it's vaspian the one who builds Augustus it's vaspian the one who builds the flavian amphitheater and then one of the flavian amphitheater and then one of the flavian amphitheater and then one of his sons takes over Titus who's okay and his sons takes over Titus who's okay and his sons takes over Titus who's okay and then the next son takes over demission then the next son takes over demission then the next son takes over demission who's nuts again so heredity just isn't who's nuts again so heredity just isn't who's nuts again so heredity just isn't working yeah and Rome fights a couple working yeah and Rome fights a couple working yeah and Rome fights a couple Civil Wars and in 98 ad were're 100 Civil Wars and in 98 ad were're 100 Civil Wars and in 98 ad were're 100 years now into the Empire and they look years now into the Empire and they look years now into the Empire and they look back at this track record and say okay back at this track record and say okay back at this track record and say okay we've been picking our ERS by heredity we've been picking our ERS by heredity we've been picking our ERS by heredity and it's been a we've gotten some real and it's been a we've gotten some real and it's been a we've gotten some real Duds here some real problematic people Duds here some real problematic people Duds here some real problematic people is there a way to fix this and this is is there a way to fix this and this is is there a way to fix this and this is one of the few instances where the one of the few instances where the one of the few instances where the Romans who I keep saying are very

Romans who I keep saying are very Romans who I keep saying are very traditional and resist change I think traditional and resist change I think traditional and resist change I think actually make a change and realize we we actually make a change and realize we we actually make a change and realize we we got to do something different and so the got to do something different and so the got to do something different and so the next guy looks around and says okay next guy looks around and says okay next guy looks around and says okay forget who's my nearest male relative forget who's my nearest male relative forget who's my nearest male relative who's the best qualified to be Emperor who's the best qualified to be Emperor who's the best qualified to be Emperor after me I'll pick that person and then after me I'll pick that person and then after me I'll pick that person and then I'll adopt him as my son I'll adopt him as my son I'll adopt him as my son so they kind of stick with the heredity so they kind of stick with the heredity so they kind of stick with the heredity but now it's this fake adoption and you but now it's this fake adoption and you but now it's this fake adoption and you end up with a lot of old guys adopting end up with a lot of old guys adopting end up with a lot of old guys adopting middle-aged adults as their son which is middle-aged adults as their son which is middle-aged adults as their son which is a little strange but it works and so for a little strange but it works and so for a little strange but it works and so for the next 80 years you have only five the next 80 years you have only five the next 80 years you have only five Emperors and they're often called the Emperors and they're often called the Emperors and they're often called the five good Emperors um they're not five good Emperors um they're not five good Emperors um they're not related necessarily by Blood they sort related necessarily by Blood they sort related necessarily by Blood they sort of pick the best qualified guy and of pick the best qualified guy and of pick the best qualified guy and they're all sound competent good they're all sound competent good they're all sound competent good Emperors and the 2 Century ad from nurva Emperors and the 2 Century ad from nurva Emperors and the 2 Century ad from nurva to uh Marcus aurelus is often regarded to uh Marcus aurelus is often regarded to uh Marcus aurelus is often regarded as the high point of the Roman Empire as the high point of the Roman Empire as the high point of the Roman Empire and a lot of that comes from you have and a lot of that comes from you have and a lot of that comes from you have political stability you have a political stability you have a political stability you have a succession of decent guys being Emperor succession of decent guys being Emperor succession of decent guys being Emperor who rule relatively wisely promote good who rule relatively wisely promote good who rule relatively wisely promote good policies there's other things working to policies there's other things working to policies there's other things working to Rome's Advantage but that's good and Rome's Advantage but that's good and Rome's Advantage but that's good and then where it falls apart is where the then where it falls apart is where the then where it falls apart is where the last guy Marcus aurelus looks around and last guy Marcus aurelus looks around and last guy Marcus aurelus looks around and says hm who's the best qualified guy to says hm who's the best qualified guy to says hm who's the best qualified guy to succeed me H what a coincidence it's my succeed me H what a coincidence it's my succeed me H what a coincidence it's my own own dear son who turns out to be a own own dear son who turns out to be a own own dear son who turns out to be a psycho and then it all goes downhill and psycho and then it all goes downhill and psycho and then it all goes downhill and uh some people place the sort of the uh some people place the sort of the uh some people place the sort of the collapse of the Roman Empire there at collapse of the Roman Empire there at collapse of the Roman Empire there at the end of Marcus ear rule yeah so 180 the end of Marcus ear rule yeah so 180 the end of Marcus ear rule yeah so 180 ad is one common date for an early date

ad is one common date for an early date ad is one common date for an early date for the end of the Roman Empire when you for the end of the Roman Empire when you for the end of the Roman Empire when you because from then on it's a mixed bag of because from then on it's a mixed bag of because from then on it's a mixed bag of good and bad Emperors at the very least good and bad Emperors at the very least good and bad Emperors at the very least this period is when it the Roman Empire this period is when it the Roman Empire this period is when it the Roman Empire is at its height on all different kinds is at its height on all different kinds is at its height on all different kinds of perspectives certainly geographically of perspectives certainly geographically of perspectives certainly geographically I mean at this point stretches from I mean at this point stretches from I mean at this point stretches from Britain to Mesopotamia from Egypt up to Britain to Mesopotamia from Egypt up to Britain to Mesopotamia from Egypt up to Germany you know like I said probably Germany you know like I said probably Germany you know like I said probably about 50 million people within its about 50 million people within its about 50 million people within its boundaries within those boundaries boundaries within those boundaries boundaries within those boundaries there's relative Peace So I mean there's relative Peace So I mean there's relative Peace So I mean sometimes people talk about the Pax sometimes people talk about the Pax sometimes people talk about the Pax Romana I mean the Romans are fighting Romana I mean the Romans are fighting Romana I mean the Romans are fighting lots of people but within the boundaries lots of people but within the boundaries lots of people but within the boundaries you have relative peace there's relative you have relative peace there's relative you have relative peace there's relative economic Prosperity I mean nothing in economic Prosperity I mean nothing in economic Prosperity I mean nothing in the ancient world is that prosperous the ancient world is that prosperous the ancient world is that prosperous it's just a different sort of economy it's just a different sort of economy it's just a different sort of economy but it's pretty stable there's no huge but it's pretty stable there's no huge but it's pretty stable there's no huge disasters happening yet some plagues disasters happening yet some plagues disasters happening yet some plagues start in Marcus aurelius's Reign um but start in Marcus aurelius's Reign um but start in Marcus aurelius's Reign um but yeah this this is pretty much uh seen as yeah this this is pretty much uh seen as yeah this this is pretty much uh seen as the high point of the Roman Empire and I the high point of the Roman Empire and I the high point of the Roman Empire and I I think it is I think that there's uh I think it is I think that there's uh I think it is I think that there's uh truth to that uh let me ask the truth to that uh let me ask the truth to that uh let me ask the ridiculously oversimplified question but ridiculously oversimplified question but ridiculously oversimplified question but uh who do you think are is the greatest uh who do you think are is the greatest uh who do you think are is the greatest Roman Emperor or maybe your top three Roman Emperor or maybe your top three Roman Emperor or maybe your top three greatest greatest greatest Emperor Emperor Emperor H I tell you what I'll tell you my H I tell you what I'll tell you my H I tell you what I'll tell you my favorite Roman who wasn't an emperor favorite Roman who wasn't an emperor favorite Roman who wasn't an emperor and that's Marcus agria who was and that's Marcus agria who was and that's Marcus agria who was augustus's right-hand man so agria is augustus's right-hand man so agria is augustus's right-hand man so agria is this interesting guy who is extremely this interesting guy who is extremely this interesting guy who is extremely talented he's a terrific General he's a talented he's a terrific General he's a talented he's a terrific General he's a terrific Admiral he's a great Builder he

terrific Admiral he's a great Builder he terrific Admiral he's a great Builder he um you know is is kind of like the um you know is is kind of like the um you know is is kind of like the troubleshooter for Augustus he's the guy troubleshooter for Augustus he's the guy troubleshooter for Augustus he's the guy who wins the Battle of actium for who wins the Battle of actium for who wins the Battle of actium for Augustus so literally Augustus would not Augustus so literally Augustus would not Augustus so literally Augustus would not have become the first emperor without a have become the first emperor without a have become the first emperor without a grippa um when Augustus rebuilds the grippa um when Augustus rebuilds the grippa um when Augustus rebuilds the city of Rome it's a grippa that he gives city of Rome it's a grippa that he gives city of Rome it's a grippa that he gives the job to a gria rebuilds the campus the job to a gria rebuilds the campus the job to a gria rebuilds the campus marshes he builds the first version of marshes he builds the first version of marshes he builds the first version of the pantheon he personally goes through the pantheon he personally goes through the pantheon he personally goes through the sewers to clean them out um and he the sewers to clean them out um and he the sewers to clean them out um and he just has this great set of qualities just has this great set of qualities just has this great set of qualities that he's very self-effacing you know I that he's very self-effacing you know I that he's very self-effacing you know I think he likes power he wants real power think he likes power he wants real power think he likes power he wants real power but he realizes I don't have that kind but he realizes I don't have that kind but he realizes I don't have that kind of clever politician's ability to to be of clever politician's ability to to be of clever politician's ability to to be the front guy so I'll just serve my the front guy so I'll just serve my the front guy so I'll just serve my friend Augustus loyally they were friend Augustus loyally they were friend Augustus loyally they were childhood friends uh I'll win the childhood friends uh I'll win the childhood friends uh I'll win the battles for Augustus I'll let him take battles for Augustus I'll let him take battles for Augustus I'll let him take all the credit but I'll be his number all the credit but I'll be his number all the credit but I'll be his number two guy and that's what I'm good at and two guy and that's what I'm good at and two guy and that's what I'm good at and he realizes his limitations I mean so he realizes his limitations I mean so he realizes his limitations I mean so many people don't so many people are many people don't so many people are many people don't so many people are like oh I just want to keep you know like oh I just want to keep you know like oh I just want to keep you know grabbing for more and more and more when grabbing for more and more and more when grabbing for more and more and more when it's not something they're good at and I it's not something they're good at and I it's not something they're good at and I think Agrippa says I'm good to this think Agrippa says I'm good to this think Agrippa says I'm good to this point and I'll play that role and no point and I'll play that role and no point and I'll play that role and no more and that'll give me a lot of power more and that'll give me a lot of power more and that'll give me a lot of power but I'm not going to press it and he's but I'm not going to press it and he's but I'm not going to press it and he's yeah he's just very hardworking he's yeah he's just very hardworking he's yeah he's just very hardworking he's modest he's modest he's modest he's self-effacing uh he's highly competent I self-effacing uh he's highly competent I self-effacing uh he's highly competent I wonder how many people in history there wonder how many people in history there wonder how many people in history there are that are like the drivers the COO of are that are like the drivers the COO of are that are like the drivers the COO of the whole operation that we don't really the whole operation that we don't really the whole operation that we don't really think about or don't talk about enough think about or don't talk about enough think about or don't talk about enough to where sort of uh they're really The to where sort of uh they're really The to where sort of uh they're really The Mastermind or the ones who make Mastermind or the ones who make Mastermind or the ones who make something possible I mean even this

something possible I mean even this something possible I mean even this conversation today you would not have conversation today you would not have conversation today you would not have Alexander the Great without his father Alexander the Great without his father Alexander the Great without his father Philip II having built that Army and Philip II having built that Army and Philip II having built that Army and handed it to him on silver platter uh handed it to him on silver platter uh handed it to him on silver platter uh Octavian would never have become emperor Octavian would never have become emperor Octavian would never have become emperor without a grippa um so it's it's they without a grippa um so it's it's they without a grippa um so it's it's they play Central roles sometimes but if I play Central roles sometimes but if I play Central roles sometimes but if I had to pick an emperor I'd probably pick had to pick an emperor I'd probably pick had to pick an emperor I'd probably pick Augustus just because of his influence Augustus just because of his influence Augustus just because of his influence um and because I admire his his the um and because I admire his his the um and because I admire his his the thing AG gria didn't have his political thing AG gria didn't have his political thing AG gria didn't have his political Savvy his manipulation of image and Savvy his manipulation of image and Savvy his manipulation of image and propaganda all that uh I I find very propaganda all that uh I I find very propaganda all that uh I I find very fascinating though I'm not sure he's a fascinating though I'm not sure he's a fascinating though I'm not sure he's a great human being but he's a really great human being but he's a really great human being but he's a really interesting figure whether whether he's interesting figure whether whether he's interesting figure whether whether he's good or bad he was extremely influential good or bad he was extremely influential good or bad he was extremely influential UND defining just yeah the entirety of UND defining just yeah the entirety of UND defining just yeah the entirety of human history that followed probably one human history that followed probably one human history that followed probably one of the most influential humans ever uh of the most influential humans ever uh of the most influential humans ever uh nevertheless if you ask in public who nevertheless if you ask in public who nevertheless if you ask in public who the most famous Roman Emperor is would the most famous Roman Emperor is would the most famous Roman Emperor is would that be Marcus aurelus that be Marcus aurelus that be Marcus aurelus potentially I don't know um question he potentially I don't know um question he potentially I don't know um question he he's real famous because he was a stoic he's real famous because he was a stoic he's real famous because he was a stoic philosopher and he wrote this book The philosopher and he wrote this book The philosopher and he wrote this book The meditations I mean it's interesting meditations I mean it's interesting meditations I mean it's interesting stoicism had uh as a philosophical stoicism had uh as a philosophical stoicism had uh as a philosophical ideology had had a role to play in ideology had had a role to play in ideology had had a role to play in during that time I mean there the the during that time I mean there the the during that time I mean there the the tragic fact that did did uh did Nero tragic fact that did did uh did Nero tragic fact that did did uh did Nero murder Sonica uh yes well he drove him murder Sonica uh yes well he drove him murder Sonica uh yes well he drove him to Suicide let's say there's a lot of to Suicide let's say there's a lot of to Suicide let's say there's a lot of interesting questions there but one is interesting questions there but one is interesting questions there but one is like the role especially when it's her

like the role especially when it's her like the role especially when it's her hereditary uh the role of the mentor the hereditary uh the role of the mentor the hereditary uh the role of the mentor the like who advises who with Aristotle and like who advises who with Aristotle and like who advises who with Aristotle and yeah uh Alexander de great like that yeah uh Alexander de great like that yeah uh Alexander de great like that that that dance of who influences and gu that that dance of who influences and gu that that dance of who influences and gu the person as they become and gain power the person as they become and gain power the person as they become and gain power is really interesting well I mean one of is really interesting well I mean one of is really interesting well I mean one of the big questions with the Roman the big questions with the Roman the big questions with the Roman emperors and we've been talking about emperors and we've been talking about emperors and we've been talking about some of them is why did so many seem to some of them is why did so many seem to some of them is why did so many seem to be either crazy or just kind of be either crazy or just kind of be either crazy or just kind of sadists um and and that's I don't know sadists um and and that's I don't know sadists um and and that's I don't know that there's a good answer to that I that there's a good answer to that I that there's a good answer to that I mean people have theories oh you know mean people have theories oh you know mean people have theories oh you know Caligula got a brain fever and changed Caligula got a brain fever and changed Caligula got a brain fever and changed after that or something but I I think after that or something but I I think after that or something but I I think there's a lot of maybe truth in the there's a lot of maybe truth in the there's a lot of maybe truth in the notion that the ones who seem to go notion that the ones who seem to go notion that the ones who seem to go craziest quite often are the ones who craziest quite often are the ones who craziest quite often are the ones who become emperor to young age M and there become emperor to young age M and there become emperor to young age M and there is something about that old cliche that is something about that old cliche that is something about that old cliche that absolute power corrupts absolutely absolute power corrupts absolutely absolute power corrupts absolutely especially if your own personality isn't especially if your own personality isn't especially if your own personality isn't really fully formed yet you know what really fully formed yet you know what really fully formed yet you know what I'm saying I mean I think take anybody I'm saying I mean I think take anybody I'm saying I mean I think take anybody when they're a teenager if you all of a when they're a teenager if you all of a when they're a teenager if you all of a sudden said you have unlimited power you sudden said you have unlimited power you sudden said you have unlimited power you know what would that do to you how would know what would that do to you how would know what would that do to you how would that warp your personality I mean look that warp your personality I mean look that warp your personality I mean look at all the what do they always have to at all the what do they always have to at all the what do they always have to say like the Disney stars who sort of go say like the Disney stars who sort of go say like the Disney stars who sort of go wrong or something because they get rich wrong or something because they get rich wrong or something because they get rich and famous at this very young age yeah and famous at this very young age yeah and famous at this very young age yeah Fame power and even money if you get way Fame power and even money if you get way Fame power and even money if you get way too much of it at a young age yeah I too much of it at a young age yeah I too much of it at a young age yeah I think we're think we're think we're egotistical narcissistic all that kind egotistical narcissistic all that kind egotistical narcissistic all that kind of stuff is of stuff is of stuff is babies and then when we clash with the babies and then when we clash with the babies and then when we clash with the world and we figure out the morality of world and we figure out the morality of world and we figure out the morality of the world how to interact with others

the world how to interact with others the world how to interact with others that that other people suffer in all that that other people suffer in all that that other people suffer in all kinds of ways understand like the kinds of ways understand like the kinds of ways understand like the cruelty uh the beauty of the world the cruelty uh the beauty of the world the cruelty uh the beauty of the world the the fact that other people suffer in the fact that other people suffer in the fact that other people suffer in different ways the fact that other different ways the fact that other different ways the fact that other people are also human and have different people are also human and have different people are also human and have different perspectives all of that in order to perspectives all of that in order to perspectives all of that in order to develop that you shouldn't be blocked develop that you shouldn't be blocked develop that you shouldn't be blocked off from the world which power and money off from the world which power and money off from the world which power and money and fame can do and conversely a lot of and fame can do and conversely a lot of and fame can do and conversely a lot of the emperor we regard as you know quote the emperor we regard as you know quote the emperor we regard as you know quote good Emperors are the ones who become good Emperors are the ones who become good Emperors are the ones who become emperor at a you know middle-aged or emperor at a you know middle-aged or emperor at a you know middle-aged or something um where their personalities something um where their personalities something um where their personalities are fully formed where they're not going are fully formed where they're not going are fully formed where they're not going to really become different people um and to really become different people um and to really become different people um and so that that works in that theory too I so that that works in that theory too I so that that works in that theory too I mean I don't think it's absolute and of mean I don't think it's absolute and of mean I don't think it's absolute and of course the greatest exception is course the greatest exception is course the greatest exception is Octavian Augustus who you know starts Octavian Augustus who you know starts Octavian Augustus who you know starts his rise to power is a teenager somehow his rise to power is a teenager somehow his rise to power is a teenager somehow doesn't seem to go nuts yeah history a doesn't seem to go nuts yeah history a doesn't seem to go nuts yeah history a lot it's not an absolute but it it lot it's not an absolute but it it lot it's not an absolute but it it doesn't help to get that much power at doesn't help to get that much power at doesn't help to get that much power at at a young age I think what does it take at a young age I think what does it take at a young age I think what does it take to be a successful Emperor would you say to be a successful Emperor would you say to be a successful Emperor would you say so you say what what's what does it take so you say what what's what does it take so you say what what's what does it take to be a good Roman Emperor um you know to be a good Roman Emperor um you know to be a good Roman Emperor um you know if you were going to draw up a you know if you were going to draw up a you know if you were going to draw up a you know a job description seeking Roman Emperor a job description seeking Roman Emperor a job description seeking Roman Emperor what are the qualities and what are the qualities and what are the qualities and qualifications you would put on it um qualifications you would put on it um qualifications you would put on it um obviously you would put you know obviously you would put you know obviously you would put you know responsible good understanding of responsible good understanding of responsible good understanding of military economics whatever ability to military economics whatever ability to military economics whatever ability to delegate but just to be fun let's delegate but just to be fun let's delegate but just to be fun let's consider how much does it matter whether consider how much does it matter whether consider how much does it matter whether the emperor is good or bad because in the emperor is good or bad because in the emperor is good or bad because in the ancient world what does it affect the ancient world what does it affect the ancient world what does it affect really if you're say uh a peasant in really if you're say uh a peasant in really if you're say uh a peasant in Spain if the emperor is crazy Nero or

Spain if the emperor is crazy Nero or Spain if the emperor is crazy Nero or good good good Vespasian I mean how does that affect Vespasian I mean how does that affect Vespasian I mean how does that affect your day-to-day life how does it affect your day-to-day life how does it affect your day-to-day life how does it affect you if you're a peasant in Italy um you if you're a peasant in Italy um you if you're a peasant in Italy um which is the average inhabitant I mean which is the average inhabitant I mean which is the average inhabitant I mean the crazy the crazy the crazy Emperors mostly affect the people within Emperors mostly affect the people within Emperors mostly affect the people within the sound of their voice so yeah they go the sound of their voice so yeah they go the sound of their voice so yeah they go crazy they murder Senators they murder crazy they murder Senators they murder crazy they murder Senators they murder their members their own family they do their members their own family they do their members their own family they do wacky stuff but a lot of that is wacky stuff but a lot of that is wacky stuff but a lot of that is constrained to the immediate constrained to the immediate constrained to the immediate surroundings around them and meanwhile surroundings around them and meanwhile surroundings around them and meanwhile the mechanism of the Roman Empire is the mechanism of the Roman Empire is the mechanism of the Roman Empire is just grinding along as it would anyway I just grinding along as it would anyway I just grinding along as it would anyway I mean the governors are running their mean the governors are running their mean the governors are running their provinces stuff's happening you know I provinces stuff's happening you know I provinces stuff's happening you know I mean I guess an emperor can start a war mean I guess an emperor can start a war mean I guess an emperor can start a war he can maybe raise taxes um but that he can maybe raise taxes um but that he can maybe raise taxes um but that would be the ways that he's affecting would be the ways that he's affecting would be the ways that he's affecting the whole empire and and here we get the whole empire and and here we get the whole empire and and here we get into technology does matter we're into technology does matter we're into technology does matter we're dealing with a world where let's say dealing with a world where let's say dealing with a world where let's say you're in Rome and near the emperor and you're in Rome and near the emperor and you're in Rome and near the emperor and you want to send a message to um a you want to send a message to um a you want to send a message to um a province far away let's say um province far away let's say um province far away let's say um Judea that message might take one or two Judea that message might take one or two Judea that message might take one or two months to get there and one or two months to get there and one or two months to get there and one or two months to get a reply so how much months to get a reply so how much months to get a reply so how much influence as Emperor are you really influence as Emperor are you really influence as Emperor are you really having over that province I mean those having over that province I mean those having over that province I mean those people pretty much have to make their people pretty much have to make their people pretty much have to make their own decisions and then kind of just say own decisions and then kind of just say own decisions and then kind of just say to you this is what we did I hope that's to you this is what we did I hope that's to you this is what we did I hope that's okay because otherwise nothing gets done okay because otherwise nothing gets done okay because otherwise nothing gets done if they're waiting four months for a if they're waiting four months for a if they're waiting four months for a decision even in the realm of ideas they decision even in the realm of ideas they decision even in the realm of ideas they can't they can't get on TV and uh on the can't they can't get on TV and uh on the can't they can't get on TV and uh on the radio yeah communication broadcast so radio yeah communication broadcast so radio yeah communication broadcast so slow and so uncertain in ways that today

slow and so uncertain in ways that today slow and so uncertain in ways that today with the ability to instantaneously talk with the ability to instantaneously talk with the ability to instantaneously talk to people across the world we can't even to people across the world we can't even to people across the world we can't even imagine and the Roman Empire is huge I imagine and the Roman Empire is huge I imagine and the Roman Empire is huge I mean it is months to send a mess message mean it is months to send a mess message mean it is months to send a mess message and get an answer so here you have the and get an answer so here you have the and get an answer so here you have the emperor in Rome yeah he affects who's emperor in Rome yeah he affects who's emperor in Rome yeah he affects who's around him and and he can affect even around him and and he can affect even around him and and he can affect even common people I mean there's crazy common people I mean there's crazy common people I mean there's crazy Emperors who are at the games and Emperors who are at the games and Emperors who are at the games and they're bored and they say well take they're bored and they say well take they're bored and they say well take that whole section of the crowd and that whole section of the crowd and that whole section of the crowd and throw them to the Lions or something throw them to the Lions or something throw them to the Lions or something there you're being affected by the there you're being affected by the there you're being affected by the emperor but if you're outside his the emperor but if you're outside his the emperor but if you're outside his the the range of his sight and voice do you the range of his sight and voice do you the range of his sight and voice do you care who the emperor is so the big one care who the emperor is so the big one care who the emperor is so the big one most of the time that's a really most of the time that's a really most of the time that's a really important idea to sort of uh to remember important idea to sort of uh to remember important idea to sort of uh to remember uh same with US president frankly uh uh uh same with US president frankly uh uh uh same with US president frankly uh uh in terms of the grand Arc of History in terms of the grand Arc of History in terms of the grand Arc of History like what is the actual impact uh but I like what is the actual impact uh but I like what is the actual impact uh but I would say the big one is probably would say the big one is probably would say the big one is probably starting Wars yeah uh major Global Wars starting Wars yeah uh major Global Wars starting Wars yeah uh major Global Wars uh or ending them in both directions and uh or ending them in both directions and uh or ending them in both directions and then uh taxation too as you said uh what then uh taxation too as you said uh what then uh taxation too as you said uh what was the taxation what was the economic was the taxation what was the economic was the taxation what was the economic system what was the role of Taxation in system what was the role of Taxation in system what was the role of Taxation in Roman the Romans are really weird with Roman the Romans are really weird with Roman the Romans are really weird with this so in the Republic once they this so in the Republic once they this so in the Republic once they started to acquire overseas provinces started to acquire overseas provinces started to acquire overseas provinces right um they had to decide well what right um they had to decide well what right um they had to decide well what are we going to do with these are we going to do with these are we going to do with these provinces um and they in the end settled provinces um and they in the end settled provinces um and they in the end settled on this notion of we'll put a Roman on this notion of we'll put a Roman on this notion of we'll put a Roman governor in charge we'll collect some governor in charge we'll collect some governor in charge we'll collect some sort of taxes but they often didn't sort of taxes but they often didn't sort of taxes but they often didn't collect the taxes directly instead they collect the taxes directly instead they collect the taxes directly instead they would sell contracts to private would sell contracts to private would sell contracts to private businesses to collect taxes so the businesses to collect taxes so the businesses to collect taxes so the private businesses would bid and say all private businesses would bid and say all private businesses would bid and say all right if you give us the contract to

right if you give us the contract to right if you give us the contract to collect taxes in Sicily we'll give you X collect taxes in Sicily we'll give you X collect taxes in Sicily we'll give you X number of money up front and then we go number of money up front and then we go number of money up front and then we go out and try to collect enough to make out and try to collect enough to make out and try to collect enough to make back that money and make ourselves a back that money and make ourselves a back that money and make ourselves a profit and this is a terrible system profit and this is a terrible system profit and this is a terrible system because obviously they're going to go because obviously they're going to go because obviously they're going to go and try and squeeze as much as they can and try and squeeze as much as they can and try and squeeze as much as they can out of Sicily um and these companies out of Sicily um and these companies out of Sicily um and these companies were called publicans were called publicans were called publicans publicani um and in the Bible there's a publicani um and in the Bible there's a publicani um and in the Bible there's a phrase publicans and Sinners and that phrase publicans and Sinners and that phrase publicans and Sinners and that should give you an idea how they're should give you an idea how they're should give you an idea how they're viewed um so everybody hated these tax viewed um so everybody hated these tax viewed um so everybody hated these tax collectors and it was a really kind of collectors and it was a really kind of collectors and it was a really kind of dumb system because you know the the the dumb system because you know the the the dumb system because you know the the the publicans were going out and squeezing publicans were going out and squeezing publicans were going out and squeezing way more than they should in an way more than they should in an way more than they should in an unhealthy way from the provinces and the unhealthy way from the provinces and the unhealthy way from the provinces and the Roman state was doing this kind of weird Roman state was doing this kind of weird Roman state was doing this kind of weird thing that they should have been doing thing that they should have been doing thing that they should have been doing themselves and over time that shifts a themselves and over time that shifts a themselves and over time that shifts a bit and it becomes more like your bit and it becomes more like your bit and it becomes more like your standard Taxation and a lot of the standard Taxation and a lot of the standard Taxation and a lot of the taxation ends up being in kind too so taxation ends up being in kind too so taxation ends up being in kind too so it's like okay we're taxing you you pay it's like okay we're taxing you you pay it's like okay we're taxing you you pay it in wheat if you're a farmer or it in wheat if you're a farmer or it in wheat if you're a farmer or something not necessarily in cash so it something not necessarily in cash so it something not necessarily in cash so it was in many ways the Roman economy is is was in many ways the Roman economy is is was in many ways the Roman economy is is under under under underdeveloped um they didn't have a lot underdeveloped um they didn't have a lot underdeveloped um they didn't have a lot of the sophisticated systems that we of the sophisticated systems that we of the sophisticated systems that we have to day and it probably held them have to day and it probably held them have to day and it probably held them back in some ways um and again they have back in some ways um and again they have back in some ways um and again they have that resistance to change uh the Romans that resistance to change uh the Romans that resistance to change uh the Romans also had weird Notions about um just also had weird Notions about um just also had weird Notions about um just business and profit making that at least business and profit making that at least business and profit making that at least originally there was this notion that's originally there was this notion that's originally there was this notion that's shameful again the only thing that's a shameful again the only thing that's a shameful again the only thing that's a worthwhile profession is worthwhile profession is worthwhile profession is farming um so you know Rich Romans would

farming um so you know Rich Romans would farming um so you know Rich Romans would get involved in what we would call get involved in what we would call get involved in what we would call business you know manufacturing business you know manufacturing business you know manufacturing particularly longdistance trade with particularly longdistance trade with particularly longdistance trade with ships but they would often do it through ships but they would often do it through ships but they would often do it through sort of front companies or employees who sort of front companies or employees who sort of front companies or employees who did it on their behalf officially and did it on their behalf officially and did it on their behalf officially and then they sort of funnel the profits to then they sort of funnel the profits to then they sort of funnel the profits to the guy funding it because they don't the guy funding it because they don't the guy funding it because they don't want to be soiled with you know business want to be soiled with you know business want to be soiled with you know business which is beneath them so the Romans had which is beneath them so the Romans had which is beneath them so the Romans had a lot of weird attitudes about the a lot of weird attitudes about the a lot of weird attitudes about the economy um that I think in some ways economy um that I think in some ways economy um that I think in some ways didn't help but nevertheless they had didn't help but nevertheless they had didn't help but nevertheless they had many of the elements of the modern many of the elements of the modern many of the elements of the modern economic system with with taxation the economic system with with taxation the economic system with with taxation the recordkeeping they were good at recordkeeping they were good at recordkeeping they were good at recordkeeping so the Romans I mean the recordkeeping so the Romans I mean the recordkeeping so the Romans I mean the census is is a Roman word they're the census is is a Roman word they're the census is is a Roman word they're the ones that came up with that so and ones that came up with that so and ones that came up with that so and obviously the laws around everything yes obviously the laws around everything yes obviously the laws around everything yes so in certain ways yes they were so in certain ways yes they were so in certain ways yes they were extremely sophisticated and of course extremely sophisticated and of course extremely sophisticated and of course the you know the biggest thing about uh the you know the biggest thing about uh the you know the biggest thing about uh people in the ancient world and today is people in the ancient world and today is people in the ancient world and today is that they weren't stupider than us I that they weren't stupider than us I that they weren't stupider than us I mean sometimes you get this assumption mean sometimes you get this assumption mean sometimes you get this assumption oh well in the ancient world they just oh well in the ancient world they just oh well in the ancient world they just weren't as smart or something no no no weren't as smart or something no no no weren't as smart or something no no no they were fully as intelligent as we they were fully as intelligent as we they were fully as intelligent as we were they didn't have access to the same were they didn't have access to the same were they didn't have access to the same technology as we do but that doesn't technology as we do but that doesn't technology as we do but that doesn't mean they were any less mean they were any less mean they were any less smart can we talk about the crisis of smart can we talk about the crisis of smart can we talk about the crisis of the 3rd century and uh the a for the 3rd century and uh the a for the 3rd century and uh the a for mentioned Western and Eastern Roman mentioned Western and Eastern Roman mentioned Western and Eastern Roman Empires how it split yeah so I mean Empires how it split yeah so I mean Empires how it split yeah so I mean after uh Rome starts to go downhill as after uh Rome starts to go downhill as after uh Rome starts to go downhill as you enter the 3 Century so the 200s so you enter the 3 Century so the 200s so you enter the 3 Century so the 200s so we're moving out of the Golden Era now we're moving out of the Golden Era now we're moving out of the Golden Era now um I mean a a famous Roman historian um I mean a a famous Roman historian um I mean a a famous Roman historian cashes Dio who lived right at that cashes Dio who lived right at that cashes Dio who lived right at that moment uh very famously wrote at of the

moment uh very famously wrote at of the moment uh very famously wrote at of the transition of Marcus Aus to what follows transition of Marcus Aus to what follows transition of Marcus Aus to what follows our kingdom now descends from one of our kingdom now descends from one of our kingdom now descends from one of gold to one of rust and iron gold to one of rust and iron gold to one of rust and iron so even people who were alive at the so even people who were alive at the so even people who were alive at the time had a distinct sense something is time had a distinct sense something is time had a distinct sense something is going downhill here and that that's going downhill here and that that's going downhill here and that that's interesting because you know usually interesting because you know usually interesting because you know usually great historical moments are retroactive great historical moments are retroactive great historical moments are retroactive and I mean here's a guy who said oh and I mean here's a guy who said oh and I mean here's a guy who said oh something's going wrong something's something's going wrong something's something's going wrong something's really going badly now um and a lot of really going badly now um and a lot of really going badly now um and a lot of it becomes that the secret is out that it becomes that the secret is out that it becomes that the secret is out that what makes an emperor is who commands what makes an emperor is who commands what makes an emperor is who commands the most swords and so you start to get the most swords and so you start to get the most swords and so you start to get rebellions by various Roman general each rebellions by various Roman general each rebellions by various Roman general each declaring himself Emperor so you'd declaring himself Emperor so you'd declaring himself Emperor so you'd always had this to a certain degree but always had this to a certain degree but always had this to a certain degree but they had kept it in check during the 2 they had kept it in check during the 2 they had kept it in check during the 2 Century ad but in the third Century you Century ad but in the third Century you Century ad but in the third Century you sometimes get three or four Generals in sometimes get three or four Generals in sometimes get three or four Generals in different parts of the Empire all different parts of the Empire all different parts of the Empire all declaring themselves Emperor and then declaring themselves Emperor and then declaring themselves Emperor and then they all rush off to Rome to fight a they all rush off to Rome to fight a they all rush off to Rome to fight a multi-way Civil War and of course while multi-way Civil War and of course while multi-way Civil War and of course while they're doing this the borders are they're doing this the borders are they're doing this the borders are undefended so barbarians start to see undefended so barbarians start to see undefended so barbarians start to see opportunity and come across and start opportunity and come across and start opportunity and come across and start raiding they start burning and pillaging raiding they start burning and pillaging raiding they start burning and pillaging Farms The Civil Wars are destroying uh Farms The Civil Wars are destroying uh Farms The Civil Wars are destroying uh cities and Farms so the economy is kind cities and Farms so the economy is kind cities and Farms so the economy is kind of tanking um then there's less money of tanking um then there's less money of tanking um then there's less money coming in his taxes so when one guy coming in his taxes so when one guy coming in his taxes so when one guy finally wins he jacks up the tax rate to finally wins he jacks up the tax rate to finally wins he jacks up the tax rate to try and make up for it but now there's try and make up for it but now there's try and make up for it but now there's fewer people able to pay and it's all fewer people able to pay and it's all fewer people able to pay and it's all just a vicious cycle uh the Romans start just a vicious cycle uh the Romans start just a vicious cycle uh the Romans start to debase the coinage which means you to debase the coinage which means you to debase the coinage which means you know you take in a gold coin you melt it know you take in a gold coin you melt it know you take in a gold coin you melt it down mix it in with 10% something less

down mix it in with 10% something less down mix it in with 10% something less valuable and then stamp it and say it's valuable and then stamp it and say it's valuable and then stamp it and say it's worth the same well people aren't stupid worth the same well people aren't stupid worth the same well people aren't stupid they're going to know that's only 90% of they're going to know that's only 90% of they're going to know that's only 90% of that gold coin invented inflation that gold coin invented inflation that gold coin invented inflation inflation and you get horrific inflation inflation and you get horrific inflation inflation and you get horrific inflation uncontrolled so you know the economy uncontrolled so you know the economy uncontrolled so you know the economy goes downhill barbarians are rating you goes downhill barbarians are rating you goes downhill barbarians are rating you have internal instability in one year have internal instability in one year have internal instability in one year you have something like eight or nine you have something like eight or nine you have something like eight or nine different guys go through his emperor in different guys go through his emperor in different guys go through his emperor in 238 so it's a mess and it looks like the 238 so it's a mess and it looks like the 238 so it's a mess and it looks like the Roman Empire is going to fall in around Roman Empire is going to fall in around Roman Empire is going to fall in around the mid3 century so this is the crisis the mid3 century so this is the crisis the mid3 century so this is the crisis and then the kind of shocking and then the kind of shocking and then the kind of shocking development is late in that third development is late in that third development is late in that third Century they actually stabilize the Century they actually stabilize the Century they actually stabilize the Empire so you have a series of these Empire so you have a series of these Empire so you have a series of these kind of army Emperors who are just good kind of army Emperors who are just good kind of army Emperors who are just good generals who managed to push the generals who managed to push the generals who managed to push the barbarians out reestablish the borders barbarians out reestablish the borders barbarians out reestablish the borders um it's actually a whole group of them um it's actually a whole group of them um it's actually a whole group of them but often they get clumped under the but often they get clumped under the but often they get clumped under the most successful the last guy who is most successful the last guy who is most successful the last guy who is Dian um who comes in and he tries to Dian um who comes in and he tries to Dian um who comes in and he tries to stabilize the economy uh one of the stabilize the economy uh one of the stabilize the economy uh one of the things he does is he issues a new solid things he does is he issues a new solid things he does is he issues a new solid gold coin that he guarantees a solid gold coin that he guarantees a solid gold coin that he guarantees a solid gold and he calls it a solidus a solid gold and he calls it a solidus a solid gold and he calls it a solidus a solid coin he famously issues a price edict coin he famously issues a price edict coin he famously issues a price edict where he says this is the maximum it's where he says this is the maximum it's where he says this is the maximum it's legal to charge for any good or service legal to charge for any good or service legal to charge for any good or service so it's attempt to curb inflation and so it's attempt to curb inflation and so it's attempt to curb inflation and that's not going to work but it helps uh that's not going to work but it helps uh that's not going to work but it helps uh kind of amusingly on dian's price EDI kind of amusingly on dian's price EDI kind of amusingly on dian's price EDI can you guess what the most expensive can you guess what the most expensive can you guess what the most expensive sort of item sort of item sort of item is hiring a

is hiring a is hiring a lawyer so some things never change right lawyer so some things never change right lawyer so some things never change right oh that's interesting I mean oh that's interesting I mean oh that's interesting I mean in that system there's probably a huge in that system there's probably a huge in that system there's probably a huge amount of lawyers yeah I mean even amount of lawyers yeah I mean even amount of lawyers yeah I mean even lawyer isn't quite the right word Romans lawyer isn't quite the right word Romans lawyer isn't quite the right word Romans didn't have true lawyers but they had didn't have true lawyers but they had didn't have true lawyers but they had people you would hired to do legal stuff people you would hired to do legal stuff people you would hired to do legal stuff or give you legal advice but anyway no or give you legal advice but anyway no or give you legal advice but anyway no the price edict is actually is really the price edict is actually is really the price edict is actually is really fascinating because it's this long list fascinating because it's this long list fascinating because it's this long list of stuff and you can see you know a good of stuff and you can see you know a good of stuff and you can see you know a good pair of shoes a bad pair of shoes how pair of shoes a bad pair of shoes how pair of shoes a bad pair of shoes how much each cost and you can see the much each cost and you can see the much each cost and you can see the relative value of things so you know relative value of things so you know relative value of things so you know what was food versus clothing what was what was food versus clothing what was what was food versus clothing what was you know going to the barber versus you know going to the barber versus you know going to the barber versus hiring a doctor all that kind of stuff hiring a doctor all that kind of stuff hiring a doctor all that kind of stuff so it's a really fun document to just so it's a really fun document to just so it's a really fun document to just mess around with um but anyway so Dian mess around with um but anyway so Dian mess around with um but anyway so Dian stabilizes basically the Empire and stabilizes basically the Empire and stabilizes basically the Empire and these other guys as well and gives it a these other guys as well and gives it a these other guys as well and gives it a new lease on life um so it seems by the new lease on life um so it seems by the new lease on life um so it seems by the end of the 3r century that Rome is is end of the 3r century that Rome is is end of the 3r century that Rome is is going to continue and then as we go into going to continue and then as we go into going to continue and then as we go into the fourth Century you have the really the fourth Century you have the really the fourth Century you have the really dramatic thing where Constantine comes dramatic thing where Constantine comes dramatic thing where Constantine comes along and converts to along and converts to along and converts to Christianity and at the time he converts Christianity and at the time he converts Christianity and at the time he converts you know the percentage of Christians in you know the percentage of Christians in you know the percentage of Christians in the Empire is small you know 10% of most the Empire is small you know 10% of most the Empire is small you know 10% of most something like that who knows but it's something like that who knows but it's something like that who knows but it's it's quite small and all of a sudden you it's quite small and all of a sudden you it's quite small and all of a sudden you have this weird thing where now the have this weird thing where now the have this weird thing where now the emperor belongs to this new religion emperor belongs to this new religion emperor belongs to this new religion what does this mean um you can debate a what does this mean um you can debate a what does this mean um you can debate a lot how sincere Constantine's conversion lot how sincere Constantine's conversion lot how sincere Constantine's conversion was um it's a little bit of a weird was um it's a little bit of a weird was um it's a little bit of a weird thing where he clearly is using it as a thing where he clearly is using it as a thing where he clearly is using it as a way to fire up the troops before a way to fire up the troops before a way to fire up the troops before a crucial battle to say hey I just had crucial battle to say hey I just had crucial battle to say hey I just had this dream and this God promised us

this dream and this God promised us this dream and this God promised us Victory if we put his magic symbol on Victory if we put his magic symbol on Victory if we put his magic symbol on our Shields and this would be okay our Shields and this would be okay our Shields and this would be okay except that he had done this a couple except that he had done this a couple except that he had done this a couple times before so one time it was Helios times before so one time it was Helios times before so one time it was Helios the son God one time it was another God the son God one time it was another God the son God one time it was another God um even after he converts he continues um even after he converts he continues um even after he converts he continues to mint coins and stuff with other gods to mint coins and stuff with other gods to mint coins and stuff with other gods on them he continues to worship other on them he continues to worship other on them he continues to worship other gods but he also kind of seems sincere gods but he also kind of seems sincere gods but he also kind of seems sincere in his conversion it's just I think the in his conversion it's just I think the in his conversion it's just I think the question is how much does he understand question is how much does he understand question is how much does he understand his new religion maybe more than is it his new religion maybe more than is it his new religion maybe more than is it sincere but that's a real turning point sincere but that's a real turning point sincere but that's a real turning point so now as we go into the fourth Century so now as we go into the fourth Century so now as we go into the fourth Century we have this thing with Constantine the we have this thing with Constantine the we have this thing with Constantine the new religion and the other thing that new religion and the other thing that new religion and the other thing that happens is the Empire is really just too happens is the Empire is really just too happens is the Empire is really just too big to govern effectively it's that big to govern effectively it's that big to govern effectively it's that thing we're talking about it's it's too thing we're talking about it's it's too thing we're talking about it's it's too large the communication is too slow and large the communication is too slow and large the communication is too slow and it starts to naturally it starts to naturally it starts to naturally fragment um and at times they try fragment um and at times they try fragment um and at times they try systems where they they split it into systems where they they split it into systems where they they split it into four so under Dian he tries the four so under Dian he tries the four so under Dian he tries the tetrarchy where he splits the empire tetrarchy where he splits the empire tetrarchy where he splits the empire into four and you actually have sort of into four and you actually have sort of into four and you actually have sort of four Emperors working together as it four Emperors working together as it four Emperors working together as it team uh more commonly it just splits team uh more commonly it just splits team uh more commonly it just splits East West so from that point on you East West so from that point on you East West so from that point on you really start to have the history of the really start to have the history of the really start to have the history of the Western Empire going in One Direction Western Empire going in One Direction Western Empire going in One Direction the Eastern Empire in the other you tend the Eastern Empire in the other you tend the Eastern Empire in the other you tend to have two Emperors though there are to have two Emperors though there are to have two Emperors though there are moments occasionally where they reunite moments occasionally where they reunite moments occasionally where they reunite so that's a big development as well and so that's a big development as well and so that's a big development as well and that's a a turning point so the most that's a a turning point so the most that's a a turning point so the most common date that people say uh maybe you common date that people say uh maybe you common date that people say uh maybe you can correct me on this that the Roman can correct me on this that the Roman can correct me on this that the Roman Empire fell as uh 476 ad they're Empire fell as uh 476 ad they're Empire fell as uh 476 ad they're referring to the fall quote unquote of

referring to the fall quote unquote of referring to the fall quote unquote of the Western Roman Empire so why did the the Western Roman Empire so why did the the Western Roman Empire so why did the Roman Empire fall yeah this this is a Roman Empire fall yeah this this is a Roman Empire fall yeah this this is a real game pick your favorite date for real game pick your favorite date for real game pick your favorite date for the fall of the Roman Empire um 476 is a the fall of the Roman Empire um 476 is a the fall of the Roman Empire um 476 is a very common one and what happens in that very common one and what happens in that very common one and what happens in that year is a barbarian king comes down into year is a barbarian king comes down into year is a barbarian king comes down into Italy and Italy and Italy and deposes a guy named Romulus Augustus deposes a guy named Romulus Augustus deposes a guy named Romulus Augustus which is an amazing name uh it's which is an amazing name uh it's which is an amazing name uh it's combining the names of the founder of combining the names of the founder of combining the names of the founder of Rome Romulus with Augustus the second Rome Romulus with Augustus the second Rome Romulus with Augustus the second founder of Rome uh and so some people founder of Rome uh and so some people founder of Rome uh and so some people say that's the end of the Roman say that's the end of the Roman say that's the end of the Roman Empire sure but others say it's 410 when Empire sure but others say it's 410 when Empire sure but others say it's 410 when uh Aller sacks Rome for the first time uh Aller sacks Rome for the first time uh Aller sacks Rome for the first time others say it's 455 when uh the vandals others say it's 455 when uh the vandals others say it's 455 when uh the vandals come and Sack Rome and do a much more come and Sack Rome and do a much more come and Sack Rome and do a much more thorough job of it this time uh some say thorough job of it this time uh some say thorough job of it this time uh some say it's 180 when Marcus aurelus picks it's 180 when Marcus aurelus picks it's 180 when Marcus aurelus picks poorly in succession some say it's 31 poorly in succession some say it's 31 poorly in succession some say it's 31 when octavien wins the Battle of actium when octavien wins the Battle of actium when octavien wins the Battle of actium and kills the Roman Republic um or you and kills the Roman Republic um or you and kills the Roman Republic um or you can go past that date and say it's 1453 can go past that date and say it's 1453 can go past that date and say it's 1453 when the Eastern Roman Empire finally when the Eastern Roman Empire finally when the Eastern Roman Empire finally Falls and I mean the Eastern Empire is Falls and I mean the Eastern Empire is Falls and I mean the Eastern Empire is legitimately the Roman Empire if you legitimately the Roman Empire if you legitimately the Roman Empire if you were go and ask them who are you they were go and ask them who are you they were go and ask them who are you they wouldn't say you know we're the wouldn't say you know we're the wouldn't say you know we're the byzantines we're the Eastern Roman byzantines we're the Eastern Roman byzantines we're the Eastern Roman Empire they would just say we're the Empire they would just say we're the Empire they would just say we're the Romans um and and they have a completely Romans um and and they have a completely Romans um and and they have a completely legitimate claim to do that so this legitimate claim to do that so this legitimate claim to do that so this whole game of when does the Empire fall whole game of when does the Empire fall whole game of when does the Empire fall is problematic and the other thing is is problematic and the other thing is is problematic and the other thing is all those dates about invasions that all those dates about invasions that all those dates about invasions that cluster around the 400s so 410 455 476

cluster around the 400s so 410 455 476 cluster around the 400s so 410 455 476 you have to ask yourself who counts as a you have to ask yourself who counts as a you have to ask yourself who counts as a real Roman by that point because for a real Roman by that point because for a real Roman by that point because for a while now the Romans themselves are while now the Romans themselves are while now the Romans themselves are often coming from often coming from often coming from barbarians um you know are crossing that barbarians um you know are crossing that barbarians um you know are crossing that boundary Roman generals they might get boundary Roman generals they might get boundary Roman generals they might get raised as a hun then serve with the raised as a hun then serve with the raised as a hun then serve with the Roman army for a while then not or Roman army for a while then not or Roman army for a while then not or visigoth or not that's been going on for visigoth or not that's been going on for visigoth or not that's been going on for a long time so what what makes someone a a long time so what what makes someone a a long time so what what makes someone a real Roman how do you tell that the guy real Roman how do you tell that the guy real Roman how do you tell that the guy kicked out in 476 was a quote real Roman kicked out in 476 was a quote real Roman kicked out in 476 was a quote real Roman and The Barbarian King who took his and The Barbarian King who took his and The Barbarian King who took his place wasn't um that's a very arbitrary place wasn't um that's a very arbitrary place wasn't um that's a very arbitrary decision there's so many interesting decision there's so many interesting decision there's so many interesting things there so of course you describe things there so of course you describe things there so of course you describe really eloquently the decline that really eloquently the decline that really eloquently the decline that started after Marcus aurelus and there's started after Marcus aurelus and there's started after Marcus aurelus and there's a lot of competing ideas there and a lot of competing ideas there and a lot of competing ideas there and thetion just interrupt you I hate thetion just interrupt you I hate thetion just interrupt you I hate wishy-washy answers which is what I kind wishy-washy answers which is what I kind wishy-washy answers which is what I kind of said so I I will give you this I of said so I I will give you this I of said so I I will give you this I think by the end of the fifth century ad think by the end of the fifth century ad think by the end of the fifth century ad the Western Roman Empire has transformed the Western Roman Empire has transformed the Western Roman Empire has transformed into something different yeah so I I I into something different yeah so I I I into something different yeah so I I I don't know what dat I can pick for that don't know what dat I can pick for that don't know what dat I can pick for that but I I can say by The End by around 500 but I I can say by The End by around 500 but I I can say by The End by around 500 I don't know that we can call whatever I don't know that we can call whatever I don't know that we can call whatever exists there the Roman Empire anymore exists there the Roman Empire anymore exists there the Roman Empire anymore and of course the barbarians make and of course the barbarians make and of course the barbarians make everything complicated because they seem everything complicated because they seem everything complicated because they seem to be willing to fight on every side and to be willing to fight on every side and to be willing to fight on every side and they're they're like fluid yes which they're they're like fluid yes which they're they're like fluid yes which they integrate fast and it it just makes they integrate fast and it it just makes they integrate fast and it it just makes the whole thing uh really tricky to say the whole thing uh really tricky to say the whole thing uh really tricky to say yeah what who's a Roman who is not and yeah what who's a Roman who is not and yeah what who's a Roman who is not and at which point did it like and at which point did it like and at which point did it like and barbarians have been forming large parts

barbarians have been forming large parts barbarians have been forming large parts of the Roman army for centuries you know of the Roman army for centuries you know of the Roman army for centuries you know um yeah it it it's extremely fluid and um yeah it it it's extremely fluid and um yeah it it it's extremely fluid and not at all just clear sides here so it's not at all just clear sides here so it's not at all just clear sides here so it's it's a mess from um military perspective it's a mess from um military perspective it's a mess from um military perspective perhaps what are some things that stand perhaps what are some things that stand perhaps what are some things that stand out to you on um the pressure from The out to you on um the pressure from The out to you on um the pressure from The Barbarians the the conflicts whether Barbarians the the conflicts whether Barbarians the the conflicts whether it's the Hans or the uh Visigoths there it's the Hans or the uh Visigoths there it's the Hans or the uh Visigoths there was a a military strategist guy named was a a military strategist guy named was a a military strategist guy named Edward lvoc who wrote this book The Edward lvoc who wrote this book The Edward lvoc who wrote this book The Grand strategy of the Roman Empire which Grand strategy of the Roman Empire which Grand strategy of the Roman Empire which was basically about Frontiers and how was basically about Frontiers and how was basically about Frontiers and how did the Romans Define their Frontier and did the Romans Define their Frontier and did the Romans Define their Frontier and everybody's jumped on this and argued everybody's jumped on this and argued everybody's jumped on this and argued about and says it's wrong and all but about and says it's wrong and all but about and says it's wrong and all but started this debate among Roman started this debate among Roman started this debate among Roman historians about yeah what what does historians about yeah what what does historians about yeah what what does frontier mean to the Romans did they frontier mean to the Romans did they frontier mean to the Romans did they conceive of their Empires having a conceive of their Empires having a conceive of their Empires having a border or was it always expanding or or border or was it always expanding or or border or was it always expanding or or what and did they have a grand strategy what and did they have a grand strategy what and did they have a grand strategy I mean today militaries have a strategy I mean today militaries have a strategy I mean today militaries have a strategy where we we want to achieve this we want where we we want to achieve this we want where we we want to achieve this we want to you know exert Force here we want to to you know exert Force here we want to to you know exert Force here we want to protect these areas did the Romans even protect these areas did the Romans even protect these areas did the Romans even visualize their empire in that sort of visualize their empire in that sort of visualize their empire in that sort of grand strategic way and it it's a real grand strategic way and it it's a real grand strategic way and it it's a real debate I mean there's some things that debate I mean there's some things that debate I mean there's some things that suggest oh here they tried to suggest oh here they tried to suggest oh here they tried to rationalize the border and short it by rationalize the border and short it by rationalize the border and short it by taking or shorten it by taking this taking or shorten it by taking this taking or shorten it by taking this territory other people see as just kind territory other people see as just kind territory other people see as just kind of random so that that's an interesting of random so that that's an interesting of random so that that's an interesting take is how do the Romans conceive of take is how do the Romans conceive of take is how do the Romans conceive of Empire I mean if you look back at Empire I mean if you look back at Empire I mean if you look back at someone like Virgil at the time of someone like Virgil at the time of someone like Virgil at the time of Augustus he said well the gods granted Augustus he said well the gods granted Augustus he said well the gods granted Rome Empire Without End so it's that Rome Empire Without End so it's that Rome Empire Without End so it's that open-ended thing but even under Augustus

open-ended thing but even under Augustus open-ended thing but even under Augustus he seems to be pulling back and saying he seems to be pulling back and saying he seems to be pulling back and saying well I'm going to kind of stop at the Ry well I'm going to kind of stop at the Ry well I'm going to kind of stop at the Ry I'm going to kind of stop at the danu we I'm going to kind of stop at the danu we I'm going to kind of stop at the danu we don't need to keep expanding forever in don't need to keep expanding forever in don't need to keep expanding forever in the way we've been doing so I mean the way we've been doing so I mean the way we've been doing so I mean that's that's a an interesting concept that's that's a an interesting concept that's that's a an interesting concept of how do the Romans see their empire of how do the Romans see their empire of how do the Romans see their empire does it have a boundary what are those does it have a boundary what are those does it have a boundary what are those boundaries what does that mean and then boundaries what does that mean and then boundaries what does that mean and then barbarians were very much uh making that barbarians were very much uh making that barbarians were very much uh making that boundary even more difficult to kind of boundary even more difficult to kind of boundary even more difficult to kind of Define it even if you wanted to right Define it even if you wanted to right Define it even if you wanted to right and again the other fun debate is were and again the other fun debate is were and again the other fun debate is were these invasions you know when the Visos these invasions you know when the Visos these invasions you know when the Visos cross the danu and come into the Roman cross the danu and come into the Roman cross the danu and come into the Roman Empire is this an invasion as it was Empire is this an invasion as it was Empire is this an invasion as it was originally described or is it a originally described or is it a originally described or is it a migration as some Scholars have started migration as some Scholars have started migration as some Scholars have started calling it um because the Visos were calling it um because the Visos were calling it um because the Visos were fleeing pressure from another Gothic fleeing pressure from another Gothic fleeing pressure from another Gothic group and they were fleeing pressure group and they were fleeing pressure group and they were fleeing pressure from the Huns and I mean a lot of the from the Huns and I mean a lot of the from the Huns and I mean a lot of the early uh Gothic peoples who come into early uh Gothic peoples who come into early uh Gothic peoples who come into the Roman Empire are basically seeking the Roman Empire are basically seeking the Roman Empire are basically seeking Asylum they're saying will you give us a Asylum they're saying will you give us a Asylum they're saying will you give us a piece of territory to live on within the piece of territory to live on within the piece of territory to live on within the boundaries of the empire ire and in boundaries of the empire ire and in boundaries of the empire ire and in return we will fight for against return we will fight for against return we will fight for against external enemies and the Romans make external enemies and the Romans make external enemies and the Romans make these deals with some of the Goths in these deals with some of the Goths in these deals with some of the Goths in fact they they made a pretty good deal fact they they made a pretty good deal fact they they made a pretty good deal with the go some a go one group of Goths with the go some a go one group of Goths with the go some a go one group of Goths to do exactly that like you can settle to do exactly that like you can settle to do exactly that like you can settle within the boundaries we'll feed you within the boundaries we'll feed you within the boundaries we'll feed you we'll give you a certain amount of stuff we'll give you a certain amount of stuff we'll give you a certain amount of stuff and you fight for us and then the Romans and you fight for us and then the Romans and you fight for us and then the Romans treated them really badly they they kind treated them really badly they they kind treated them really badly they they kind of didn't Supply what they had promised of didn't Supply what they had promised of didn't Supply what they had promised and so they turned against the Romans uh and so they turned against the Romans uh and so they turned against the Romans uh with good reason so the Romans blundered with good reason so the Romans blundered with good reason so the Romans blundered in these things too so is it correct in these things too so is it correct in these things too so is it correct that the Visigoths fought on the side of

that the Visigoths fought on the side of that the Visigoths fought on the side of the Romans against a the Hun some of the Romans against a the Hun some of the Romans against a the Hun some of them did okay so again that there were them did okay so again that there were them did okay so again that there were various groups on both sides of those various groups on both sides of those various groups on both sides of those battles so Atilla is the the famous Hun battles so Atilla is the the famous Hun battles so Atilla is the the famous Hun um and he comes into the Roman Empire um and he comes into the Roman Empire um and he comes into the Roman Empire and seems to be heading right for Rome and seems to be heading right for Rome and seems to be heading right for Rome to you know knock it off um and to you know knock it off um and to you know knock it off um and everybody is so scared of the Huns that everybody is so scared of the Huns that everybody is so scared of the Huns that this weird Coalition comes together of this weird Coalition comes together of this weird Coalition comes together of the Romans plus various Barbarian groups the Romans plus various Barbarian groups the Romans plus various Barbarian groups against Atilla in League with some other against Atilla in League with some other against Atilla in League with some other Barbarian group groups and they fight a Barbarian group groups and they fight a Barbarian group groups and they fight a huge battle and it's more or less a huge battle and it's more or less a huge battle and it's more or less a stalemate so a Tilla gets stopped and he stalemate so a Tilla gets stopped and he stalemate so a Tilla gets stopped and he says all right we're going to just rest says all right we're going to just rest says all right we're going to just rest up for a year next year we'll go finish up for a year next year we'll go finish up for a year next year we'll go finish off the Romans next year comes he heads off the Romans next year comes he heads off the Romans next year comes he heads down into Italy he's heading straight down into Italy he's heading straight down into Italy he's heading straight for Rome and the pope goes and meets for Rome and the pope goes and meets for Rome and the pope goes and meets Atilla and they have lunch together at Atilla and they have lunch together at Atilla and they have lunch together at this River and at the end of the lunch this River and at the end of the lunch this River and at the end of the lunch Atilla goes back and says eh I Chang my Atilla goes back and says eh I Chang my Atilla goes back and says eh I Chang my mind we're going to go back up to France mind we're going to go back up to France mind we're going to go back up to France hang around for another year we'll hang around for another year we'll hang around for another year we'll finish off the Romans later and you know finish off the Romans later and you know finish off the Romans later and you know Christian sources say Saints appeared in Christian sources say Saints appeared in Christian sources say Saints appeared in the sky with flaming swords and you know the sky with flaming swords and you know the sky with flaming swords and you know scared away Atilla uh some other sources scared away Atilla uh some other sources scared away Atilla uh some other sources say well the pope gave Atilla a huge say well the pope gave Atilla a huge say well the pope gave Atilla a huge bribe to go away for a while believe bribe to go away for a while believe bribe to go away for a while believe whichever you like um but then Atilla whichever you like um but then Atilla whichever you like um but then Atilla ends up dying on his wedding night uh ends up dying on his wedding night uh ends up dying on his wedding night uh before he comes back under mysterious before he comes back under mysterious before he comes back under mysterious circumstances and so that never circumstances and so that never circumstances and so that never materializes and The Hun's kind of materializes and The Hun's kind of materializes and The Hun's kind of fragment after his death so what was the fragment after his death so what was the fragment after his death so what was the definitive blow uh by The Barbarians by definitive blow uh by The Barbarians by definitive blow uh by The Barbarians by the VIS gos The Barbarians are so many

the VIS gos The Barbarians are so many the VIS gos The Barbarians are so many different groups um and and weirdly I different groups um and and weirdly I different groups um and and weirdly I think an important one that sometimes think an important one that sometimes think an important one that sometimes people tend to focus on the Huns and the people tend to focus on the Huns and the people tend to focus on the Huns and the Goths the vandals end up going to Spain Goths the vandals end up going to Spain Goths the vandals end up going to Spain conquering Spain and then crossing over conquering Spain and then crossing over conquering Spain and then crossing over into North Africa and kind of conquering into North Africa and kind of conquering into North Africa and kind of conquering North Africa as well and Spain and North North Africa as well and Spain and North North Africa as well and Spain and North Africa were some of the Africa were some of the Africa were some of the main uh areas that food surpluses were main uh areas that food surpluses were main uh areas that food surpluses were collected from and sent to Rome to feed collected from and sent to Rome to feed collected from and sent to Rome to feed the city of Rome and it's after those the city of Rome and it's after those the city of Rome and it's after those Vandal uh invasions of the Takeover of Vandal uh invasions of the Takeover of Vandal uh invasions of the Takeover of those areas that the population of Rome those areas that the population of Rome those areas that the population of Rome plummets so I I think that's an plummets so I I think that's an plummets so I I think that's an interesting moment where you know the interesting moment where you know the interesting moment where you know the city of Rome had always been this symbol city of Rome had always been this symbol city of Rome had always been this symbol and already it was no longer the capital and already it was no longer the capital and already it was no longer the capital uh the Emperors had moved to Rena a uh the Emperors had moved to Rena a uh the Emperors had moved to Rena a little bit north because it was little bit north because it was little bit north because it was surrounded by swamps so it was more surrounded by swamps so it was more surrounded by swamps so it was more defensible but there is something defensible but there is something defensible but there is something important about that old symbolic important about that old symbolic important about that old symbolic Capital now just collapsing in terms of Capital now just collapsing in terms of Capital now just collapsing in terms of population numbers really no longer population numbers really no longer population numbers really no longer having importance because literally its having importance because literally its having importance because literally its food supply is cut off uh by losing food supply is cut off uh by losing food supply is cut off uh by losing those areas of the Empire and of course those areas of the Empire and of course those areas of the Empire and of course the the the capital Constantine had founded a new capital Constantine had founded a new capital Constantine had founded a new second capital uh at what used to be second capital uh at what used to be second capital uh at what used to be Byzantium a Greek city on the Bosphorus Byzantium a Greek city on the Bosphorus Byzantium a Greek city on the Bosphorus which becomes Constantinople he names it which becomes Constantinople he names it which becomes Constantinople he names it very modestly after himself uh and that very modestly after himself uh and that very modestly after himself uh and that now is really the dominant City for any now is really the dominant City for any now is really the dominant City for any of the Roman Empires Eastern or Western of the Roman Empires Eastern or Western of the Roman Empires Eastern or Western so if you're actually living in that so if you're actually living in that so if you're actually living in that Century the fifth century it's kind of Century the fifth century it's kind of Century the fifth century it's kind of like the Western Roman Empire dies with like the Western Roman Empire dies with like the Western Roman Empire dies with a whimper it's not like a it's a bunch

a whimper it's not like a it's a bunch a whimper it's not like a it's a bunch of Str there's a lot of moments you can of Str there's a lot of moments you can of Str there's a lot of moments you can pick there's an earlier one in the 300s pick there's an earlier one in the 300s pick there's an earlier one in the 300s when the Roman Empire uh the Romans lose when the Roman Empire uh the Romans lose when the Roman Empire uh the Romans lose a big battle to you know some barbarians a big battle to you know some barbarians a big battle to you know some barbarians that symbolically is important but yeah that symbolically is important but yeah that symbolically is important but yeah I don't think there's one clear-cut I don't think there's one clear-cut I don't think there's one clear-cut moment and again I don't know that it is moment and again I don't know that it is moment and again I don't know that it is The Barbarians that cause quote the fall The Barbarians that cause quote the fall The Barbarians that cause quote the fall of the Roman Empire I mean this is the of the Roman Empire I mean this is the of the Roman Empire I mean this is the other game as people like to say when other game as people like to say when other game as people like to say when did the Roman Empire fall the other big did the Roman Empire fall the other big did the Roman Empire fall the other big question is why you know why did the r question is why you know why did the r question is why you know why did the r Empire fall um if you define it as Empire fall um if you define it as Empire fall um if you define it as falling and I mean Barbarian invasions falling and I mean Barbarian invasions falling and I mean Barbarian invasions was the traditional answer so there's a was the traditional answer so there's a was the traditional answer so there's a a French historian famous said the Roman a French historian famous said the Roman a French historian famous said the Roman Empire didn't fall it was murdered you Empire didn't fall it was murdered you Empire didn't fall it was murdered you know it was killed by barbarians but I know it was killed by barbarians but I know it was killed by barbarians but I mean there's other mean there's other mean there's other explanations um you know I mean some explanations um you know I mean some explanations um you know I mean some people say it was Christianity some say people say it was Christianity some say people say it was Christianity some say it was a climate that uh the Roman it was a climate that uh the Roman it was a climate that uh the Roman Empire flourished during this moment of Empire flourished during this moment of Empire flourished during this moment of luck when just the climate was good and luck when just the climate was good and luck when just the climate was good and then you get this sort of late Roman then you get this sort of late Roman then you get this sort of late Roman little ice age and everything goes little ice age and everything goes little ice age and everything goes downhill and that's what caused it um downhill and that's what caused it um downhill and that's what caused it um there's some that say things like there's some that say things like there's some that say things like disease there were a whole series of disease there were a whole series of disease there were a whole series of waves of plague that started to hit waves of plague that started to hit waves of plague that started to hit under Marcus Aurelius and continued under Marcus Aurelius and continued under Marcus Aurelius and continued after him which seemed to have caused after him which seemed to have caused after him which seemed to have caused real serious death and economic real serious death and economic real serious death and economic disruption I mean that's a decent disruption I mean that's a decent disruption I mean that's a decent explanation another popular one is moral explanation another popular one is moral explanation another popular one is moral decline which I don't think really works decline which I don't think really works decline which I don't think really works well you even get the people saying you well you even get the people saying you well you even get the people saying you know lead poisoning but that's not true know lead poisoning but that's not true know lead poisoning but that's not true cuz they were drinking out of the same cuz they were drinking out of the same cuz they were drinking out of the same pipes when the empire was expanding

pipes when the empire was expanding pipes when the empire was expanding right yeah that's fascinating that's right yeah that's fascinating that's right yeah that's fascinating that's fascinating but often we kind of fascinating but often we kind of fascinating but often we kind of agree uh that's something that you've agree uh that's something that you've agree uh that's something that you've talked about quite a bit is the military talked about quite a bit is the military talked about quite a bit is the military perspective is the one that perspective is the one that perspective is the one that defines the rise and fall of defines the rise and fall of defines the rise and fall of Empires uh you have a really great Empires uh you have a really great Empires uh you have a really great lecture series called the the decisive lecture series called the the decisive lecture series called the the decisive battles of world history which is battles of world history which is battles of world history which is another fascinating perspective to look another fascinating perspective to look another fascinating perspective to look at world history at world history at world history what makes a battle what makes a battle what makes a battle decisive the easiest definition is it decisive the easiest definition is it decisive the easiest definition is it causes an immediate uh change in causes an immediate uh change in causes an immediate uh change in political structure so who's in charge political structure so who's in charge political structure so who's in charge so the classic uh decisive political so the classic uh decisive political so the classic uh decisive political battle is Alexander beats King Dias III battle is Alexander beats King Dias III battle is Alexander beats King Dias III at the Battle of Gaga and in that moment at the Battle of Gaga and in that moment at the Battle of Gaga and in that moment we switch from the ruler of the entire we switch from the ruler of the entire we switch from the ruler of the entire huge Persian Empire being dasas to now huge Persian Empire being dasas to now huge Persian Empire being dasas to now being Alexander from it being Persian to being Alexander from it being Persian to being Alexander from it being Persian to being controlled by the macedonians so being controlled by the macedonians so being controlled by the macedonians so there is a one afternoon has this there is a one afternoon has this there is a one afternoon has this dramatic switch over a enormous dramatic switch over a enormous dramatic switch over a enormous geographic area right so that's a geographic area right so that's a geographic area right so that's a decisive battle and that you see that decisive battle and that you see that decisive battle and that you see that immediate change um other types of immediate change um other types of immediate change um other types of decisive battles are ones that might decisive battles are ones that might decisive battles are ones that might have more unforeseen long-term effects have more unforeseen long-term effects have more unforeseen long-term effects you know you may not realize this is you know you may not realize this is you know you may not realize this is decisive at the time but uh from a decisive at the time but uh from a decisive at the time but uh from a longer perspective it is um and often longer perspective it is um and often longer perspective it is um and often those are ones that either allow some those are ones that either allow some those are ones that either allow some new people or idea or institution to new people or idea or institution to new people or idea or institution to either grow or have its growth curbed MH either grow or have its growth curbed MH either grow or have its growth curbed MH so at various points we have you know so at various points we have you know so at various points we have you know Empires that were expanding and

Empires that were expanding and Empires that were expanding and basically were stopped at some battle basically were stopped at some battle basically were stopped at some battle and so you say well if they hadn't been and so you say well if they hadn't been and so you say well if they hadn't been stopped there they might have gone on to stopped there they might have gone on to stopped there they might have gone on to dominate this whole area or conversely dominate this whole area or conversely dominate this whole area or conversely you know um you know you could say Rome you know um you know you could say Rome you know um you know you could say Rome wasn't they were one place before the wasn't they were one place before the wasn't they were one place before the Second Punic War after the Second Punic Second Punic War after the Second Punic Second Punic War after the Second Punic War they were its dominant Force so you War they were its dominant Force so you War they were its dominant Force so you could pick one of those battles and so could pick one of those battles and so could pick one of those battles and so that was decisive in setting them on that was decisive in setting them on that was decisive in setting them on this new path it's also an opportunity this new path it's also an opportunity this new path it's also an opportunity demonstrate a new technology and if that demonstrate a new technology and if that demonstrate a new technology and if that technology is effective yes it changes technology is effective yes it changes technology is effective yes it changes history because that that was demon history because that that was demon history because that that was demon either uh tactical or literally the either uh tactical or literally the either uh tactical or literally the technology used uh so how important is technology used uh so how important is technology used uh so how important is technology that technological advantage technology that technological advantage technology that technological advantage in war huge I mean the history of in war huge I mean the history of in war huge I mean the history of warfare is basically the history of warfare is basically the history of warfare is basically the history of technological change often so I mean technological change often so I mean technological change often so I mean there's all the great moments of there's all the great moments of there's all the great moments of transition for a long time we fought transition for a long time we fought transition for a long time we fought with you know hand toand uh with metal with you know hand toand uh with metal with you know hand toand uh with metal weapons um then you start to have the weapons um then you start to have the weapons um then you start to have the gunpowder Revolution which causes all gunpowder Revolution which causes all gunpowder Revolution which causes all sorts of shifts there um you know sorts of shifts there um you know sorts of shifts there um you know there's big changes U planes when they there's big changes U planes when they there's big changes U planes when they become a huge Force I mean World War II become a huge Force I mean World War II become a huge Force I mean World War II is this crazy time where planes go from is this crazy time where planes go from is this crazy time where planes go from literally byy planes you know string and literally byy planes you know string and literally byy planes you know string and wood to Jets four years later um so wood to Jets four years later um so wood to Jets four years later um so that's this moment of incredibly fast that's this moment of incredibly fast that's this moment of incredibly fast technological change you know going into technological change you know going into technological change you know going into World War II everybody thinks it's all World War II everybody thinks it's all World War II everybody thinks it's all about battleships who's got the biggest about battleships who's got the biggest about battleships who's got the biggest battleships battleships battleships four years later battleships are Just four years later battleships are Just four years later battleships are Just Junk let's just scrap them it's all Junk let's just scrap them it's all Junk let's just scrap them it's all about aircraft carriers and that's

about aircraft carriers and that's about aircraft carriers and that's that's everything War at Sea so you have that's everything War at Sea so you have that's everything War at Sea so you have these moments of of particularly in these moments of of particularly in these moments of of particularly in Warfare almost accelerated technological Warfare almost accelerated technological Warfare almost accelerated technological change where things happen very rapidly change where things happen very rapidly change where things happen very rapidly and the civilization or the nation or and the civilization or the nation or and the civilization or the nation or the army that adapts more quickly to the the army that adapts more quickly to the the army that adapts more quickly to the new technology will often be the one new technology will often be the one new technology will often be the one that wins and we've seen that story over that wins and we've seen that story over that wins and we've seen that story over and over and over again in history and over and over again in history and over and over again in history it's also interesting how much geography it's also interesting how much geography it's also interesting how much geography that you mentioned a few times affects that you mentioned a few times affects that you mentioned a few times affects uh Wars the result of Wars the the rise uh Wars the result of Wars the the rise uh Wars the result of Wars the the rise and fall of Empires all of it as silly and fall of Empires all of it as silly and fall of Empires all of it as silly as it is it's not the people or the as it is it's not the people or the as it is it's not the people or the technology it's like sometimes like technology it's like sometimes like technology it's like sometimes like literally that there's Rivers I I think literally that there's Rivers I I think literally that there's Rivers I I think there's there's a real geographic there's there's a real geographic there's there's a real geographic determinism to civilization itself I determinism to civilization itself I determinism to civilization itself I mean you know if you look at where mean you know if you look at where mean you know if you look at where civilization arose it's in Mesopotamia civilization arose it's in Mesopotamia civilization arose it's in Mesopotamia and sort of a swampy Land Between Two and sort of a swampy Land Between Two and sort of a swampy Land Between Two Rivers it's in the Rivers it's in the Rivers it's in the River delta where the same situation um River delta where the same situation um River delta where the same situation um it's in the indis river where you have it's in the indis river where you have it's in the indis river where you have the same thing and it's along the yellow the same thing and it's along the yellow the same thing and it's along the yellow rivers and the yangi rivers where it's rivers and the yangi rivers where it's rivers and the yangi rivers where it's the same thing so I mean that is the same thing so I mean that is the same thing so I mean that is geographically determined where those geographically determined where those geographically determined where those great civilizations of you know Asia um great civilizations of you know Asia um great civilizations of you know Asia um you know or Europe are going to arise is you know or Europe are going to arise is you know or Europe are going to arise is it's it's very much determined by that it's it's very much determined by that it's it's very much determined by that um and often the course of history is is um and often the course of history is is um and often the course of history is is has that strong geographical uh has that strong geographical uh has that strong geographical uh determination I mean you can argue that determination I mean you can argue that determination I mean you can argue that all of egyp Egyptian ancient Egyptian all of egyp Egyptian ancient Egyptian all of egyp Egyptian ancient Egyptian Society uh is kind of based around the Society uh is kind of based around the Society uh is kind of based around the cycle of the Nile flood because it was

cycle of the Nile flood because it was cycle of the Nile flood because it was so predictable and everything depended so predictable and everything depended so predictable and everything depended on it and their whole religion actually on it and their whole religion actually on it and their whole religion actually develops around that and Mesopotamia the develops around that and Mesopotamia the develops around that and Mesopotamia the same thing the way their religion same thing the way their religion same thing the way their religion develops is a reaction to the particular develops is a reaction to the particular develops is a reaction to the particular Geographic environment uh that those Geographic environment uh that those Geographic environment uh that those people grew up in so that's a very people grew up in so that's a very people grew up in so that's a very profound influence on civilization uh profound influence on civilization uh profound influence on civilization uh one of my professors once said to me one of my professors once said to me one of my professors once said to me the best map of the Roman Empire isn't the best map of the Roman Empire isn't the best map of the Roman Empire isn't any of these maps with political borders any of these maps with political borders any of these maps with political borders it would be a map that shows the Zone in it would be a map that shows the Zone in it would be a map that shows the Zone in which it's possible to cultivate olives which it's possible to cultivate olives which it's possible to cultivate olives so if you simply get a map and map onto so if you simply get a map and map onto so if you simply get a map and map onto it where you could grow olives during it where you could grow olives during it where you could grow olives during this time let's say first century ad it this time let's say first century ad it this time let's say first century ad it corresponds exactly I mean really corresponds exactly I mean really corresponds exactly I mean really closely to the areas that are most closely to the areas that are most closely to the areas that are most heavily romanized now I'm not gonna say heavily romanized now I'm not gonna say heavily romanized now I'm not gonna say that you know that you know that you know but there is something to that where but there is something to that where but there is something to that where Roman culture spread successfully is Roman culture spread successfully is Roman culture spread successfully is where people grow the same where people grow the same where people grow the same crops and that's just one of those crops and that's just one of those crops and that's just one of those fundamental things yeah I mean you're so fundamental things yeah I mean you're so fundamental things yeah I mean you're so beautifully put that the perspective can beautifully put that the perspective can beautifully put that the perspective can change dramatically how you see history change dramatically how you see history change dramatically how you see history I mean you could probably tell world I mean you could probably tell world I mean you could probably tell world history through what through olives history through what through olives history through what through olives cinnamon and gold M yeah that's become cinnamon and gold M yeah that's become cinnamon and gold M yeah that's become really trendy is to look at history really trendy is to look at history really trendy is to look at history through objects and I mean for the through objects and I mean for the through objects and I mean for the Romans the diet is huge um I mean you Romans the diet is huge um I mean you Romans the diet is huge um I mean you know probably 80% of the people in the know probably 80% of the people in the know probably 80% of the people in the Roman World ate basically a diet of Roman World ate basically a diet of Roman World ate basically a diet of olive oil wine olive oil wine olive oil wine um uh and and wheat right that those

um uh and and wheat right that those um uh and and wheat right that those three crops are are the basic crops that three crops are are the basic crops that three crops are are the basic crops that they subsisted on and just the way you they subsisted on and just the way you they subsisted on and just the way you have to grow those crops where you grow have to grow those crops where you grow have to grow those crops where you grow them that dictates so much you know them that dictates so much you know them that dictates so much you know about culture and the Romans saw it that about culture and the Romans saw it that about culture and the Romans saw it that way uh one of my favorite uh documents way uh one of my favorite uh documents way uh one of my favorite uh documents from the ancient world and and they from the ancient world and and they from the ancient world and and they defined iation that way so the Romans defined iation that way so the Romans defined iation that way so the Romans civilized people ate those crops and civilized people ate those crops and civilized people ate those crops and non- civilized people ate different food non- civilized people ate different food non- civilized people ate different food so there's this letter from a Greek who so there's this letter from a Greek who so there's this letter from a Greek who was serving as an administrator in the was serving as an administrator in the was serving as an administrator in the Roman government and he gets posted to Roman government and he gets posted to Roman government and he gets posted to Germany okay to the far north and he Germany okay to the far north and he Germany okay to the far north and he writes these pathetic letters back home writes these pathetic letters back home writes these pathetic letters back home to his family saying the inhabitants to his family saying the inhabitants to his family saying the inhabitants here lead the most wretched existence of here lead the most wretched existence of here lead the most wretched existence of all mankind for they cultivate no olives all mankind for they cultivate no olives all mankind for they cultivate no olives and they grow no and they grow no and they grow no grapes so to him that was hell yeah grapes so to him that was hell yeah grapes so to him that was hell yeah being posted to an area where they eat being posted to an area where they eat being posted to an area where they eat these terrible foreign foods and of these terrible foreign foods and of these terrible foreign foods and of course the cliche uh for the Romans of course the cliche uh for the Romans of course the cliche uh for the Romans of what barbarians eat is red meat they're what barbarians eat is red meat they're what barbarians eat is red meat they're herders so they're not Farmers but they herders so they're not Farmers but they herders so they're not Farmers but they follow herds of cow around which is a follow herds of cow around which is a follow herds of cow around which is a totally different lifestyle they eat totally different lifestyle they eat totally different lifestyle they eat dairy products and they drink dairy products and they drink dairy products and they drink beer and I I tell my students sometimes beer and I I tell my students sometimes beer and I I tell my students sometimes that you know if you were to stick a that you know if you were to stick a that you know if you were to stick a Roman in a time machine and send him to Roman in a time machine and send him to Roman in a time machine and send him to where we live which I teach in with where we live which I teach in with where we live which I teach in with Wisconsin Green Bay Wisconsin that Roman Wisconsin Green Bay Wisconsin that Roman Wisconsin Green Bay Wisconsin that Roman would step out look around see all the would step out look around see all the would step out look around see all the beer the BRS and the cheese and say I beer the BRS and the cheese and say I beer the BRS and the cheese and say I know who you guys are you're barbarians know who you guys are you're barbarians know who you guys are you're barbarians barbarians that that's another way to

barbarians that that's another way to barbarians that that's another way to draw the boundary between olive oil wine draw the boundary between olive oil wine draw the boundary between olive oil wine wheat and meat Dairy and beer but it wheat and meat Dairy and beer but it wheat and meat Dairy and beer but it it's more fundamental because it's it's more fundamental because it's it's more fundamental because it's different forms of life because if different forms of life because if different forms of life because if you're a farmer you grow certain crops you're a farmer you grow certain crops you're a farmer you grow certain crops and if you're a farmer you tend to stay and if you're a farmer you tend to stay and if you're a farmer you tend to stay in one place you tend to build cities if in one place you tend to build cities if in one place you tend to build cities if you're following herds of cows around you're following herds of cows around you're following herds of cows around you don't build cities you have a you don't build cities you have a you don't build cities you have a totally different lifestyle so it it's totally different lifestyle so it it's totally different lifestyle so it it's diet but it's it's more fundamental diet but it's it's more fundamental diet but it's it's more fundamental underlying things about your entire underlying things about your entire underlying things about your entire culture and many of The Barbarians were culture and many of The Barbarians were culture and many of The Barbarians were nomadic tribes some of them were yeah nomadic tribes some of them were yeah nomadic tribes some of them were yeah definitely fascinating I mean this is definitely fascinating I mean this is definitely fascinating I mean this is just yet another fascinating way to just yet another fascinating way to just yet another fascinating way to dietary determinism geographic dietary determinism geographic dietary determinism geographic determinism yeah these things are big on determinism yeah these things are big on determinism yeah these things are big on the topic of War it may be a ridiculous the topic of War it may be a ridiculous the topic of War it may be a ridiculous span of time and uh scale but how do you span of time and uh scale but how do you span of time and uh scale but how do you think the world Wars of the 20th century think the world Wars of the 20th century think the world Wars of the 20th century compare to the wars that we've been compare to the wars that we've been compare to the wars that we've been talking about of the Roman Empire of talking about of the Roman Empire of talking about of the Roman Empire of Greece and so on I mean what's Greece and so on I mean what's Greece and so on I mean what's interesting about some of the Roman interesting about some of the Roman interesting about some of the Roman Civil Wars particularly is that they are Civil Wars particularly is that they are Civil Wars particularly is that they are world wars of the time so let's take the world wars of the time so let's take the world wars of the time so let's take the war um after the assassination of Julius war um after the assassination of Julius war um after the assassination of Julius Caesar we've talked about that one a lot Caesar we've talked about that one a lot Caesar we've talked about that one a lot that was fought there were battles there that was fought there were battles there that was fought there were battles there fought in Spain in North Africa in fought in Spain in North Africa in fought in Spain in North Africa in Greece in Egypt in Italy I mean truly Greece in Egypt in Italy I mean truly Greece in Egypt in Italy I mean truly across the entire breadth of the across the entire breadth of the across the entire breadth of the Mediterranean involving at least seven Mediterranean involving at least seven Mediterranean involving at least seven or eight different factions of Romans or eight different factions of Romans or eight different factions of Romans and that was the world to them I mean and that was the world to them I mean and that was the world to them I mean that's very similar in a way to our that's very similar in a way to our that's very similar in a way to our modern world wars where this was a

modern world wars where this was a modern world wars where this was a global conflict at least as they global conflict at least as they global conflict at least as they invisioned the world they knew of and if invisioned the world they knew of and if invisioned the world they knew of and if we sort of I don't know somehow factor we sort of I don't know somehow factor we sort of I don't know somehow factor for you know Transportation time I mean for you know Transportation time I mean for you know Transportation time I mean I think you can argue that that was a I think you can argue that that was a I think you can argue that that was a bigger War than World War II I mean in bigger War than World War II I mean in bigger War than World War II I mean in World War II if you hopped on a you World War II if you hopped on a you World War II if you hopped on a you could get from the US to China in you could get from the US to China in you could get from the US to China in you know I don't know a week or something know I don't know a week or something know I don't know a week or something right in little hops I mean in the right in little hops I mean in the right in little hops I mean in the ancient world if you wanted to go from ancient world if you wanted to go from ancient world if you wanted to go from Spain to Egypt it would take you a month Spain to Egypt it would take you a month Spain to Egypt it would take you a month so they were fighting across a larger so they were fighting across a larger so they were fighting across a larger SpaceTime Zone in terms of their SpaceTime Zone in terms of their SpaceTime Zone in terms of their technology to move than World War II technology to move than World War II technology to move than World War II took place sense World War II was quite took place sense World War II was quite took place sense World War II was quite contained yeah I mean if if we adjust contained yeah I mean if if we adjust contained yeah I mean if if we adjust for that sort of factor so that that was for that sort of factor so that that was for that sort of factor so that that was a global war and I think that would be a global war and I think that would be a global war and I think that would be very familiar very familiar very familiar uh how do you think uh how do you think uh how do you think the the atomic bomb nuclear weapons the the atomic bomb nuclear weapons the the atomic bomb nuclear weapons change change change War yeah I mean that's the now we can War yeah I mean that's the now we can War yeah I mean that's the now we can destroy the world and trly kind of destroy the world and trly kind of destroy the world and trly kind of destroy civilizations wholesale and that destroy civilizations wholesale and that destroy civilizations wholesale and that does seem to be a new thing I mean no does seem to be a new thing I mean no does seem to be a new thing I mean no matter what the Romans do did they matter what the Romans do did they matter what the Romans do did they didn't have that choice that ability to didn't have that choice that ability to didn't have that choice that ability to think I I can do something that will think I I can do something that will think I I can do something that will end uh you know life as we know it at end uh you know life as we know it at end uh you know life as we know it at least on on the planet um and that's least on on the planet um and that's least on on the planet um and that's that's a very different perspective um that's a very different perspective um that's a very different perspective um and it's I think weird and interesting and it's I think weird and interesting and it's I think weird and interesting moment right now I mean I'm getting Way moment right now I mean I'm getting Way moment right now I mean I'm getting Way Beyond ancient history here but you know Beyond ancient history here but you know Beyond ancient history here but you know for a long time we had this sort of for a long time we had this sort of for a long time we had this sort of stasis with the nuclear standoff with u

stasis with the nuclear standoff with u stasis with the nuclear standoff with u mutually assured destruction between mutually assured destruction between mutually assured destruction between this us sort of block of Nations and the this us sort of block of Nations and the this us sort of block of Nations and the the Soviet ones um and it worked and now the Soviet ones um and it worked and now the Soviet ones um and it worked and now we're entering this kind of time when a we're entering this kind of time when a we're entering this kind of time when a lot more countries are going to start lot more countries are going to start lot more countries are going to start becoming nuclear capable um we might becoming nuclear capable um we might becoming nuclear capable um we might have a Resurgence of just building new have a Resurgence of just building new have a Resurgence of just building new weapons platforms with China seems very weapons platforms with China seems very weapons platforms with China seems very eager to expand their nuclear Arsenal eager to expand their nuclear Arsenal eager to expand their nuclear Arsenal and all sorts of ways so it's it's a and all sorts of ways so it's it's a and all sorts of ways so it's it's a unnerving time let's say right now and unnerving time let's say right now and unnerving time let's say right now and it's a terrifying experiment to find out it's a terrifying experiment to find out it's a terrifying experiment to find out if nuclear weapons when a lot of Nations if nuclear weapons when a lot of Nations if nuclear weapons when a lot of Nations have nuclear weapons is that going to have nuclear weapons is that going to have nuclear weapons is that going to enforce Civility and peace or is it enforce Civility and peace or is it enforce Civility and peace or is it actually going to be a destabilizing and actually going to be a destabilizing and actually going to be a destabilizing and ultimately civilization destroying right ultimately civilization destroying right ultimately civilization destroying right I mean it it was weirdly stable when it I mean it it was weirdly stable when it I mean it it was weirdly stable when it was a bipolar world where you had just was a bipolar world where you had just was a bipolar world where you had just sort of those two blocks now with a sort of those two blocks now with a sort of those two blocks now with a multi-polar world with access to these multi-polar world with access to these multi-polar world with access to these weapons I don't know I mean we're kind weapons I don't know I mean we're kind weapons I don't know I mean we're kind of jumping out of the ancient world but of jumping out of the ancient world but of jumping out of the ancient world but I'll tell you one thing that's always I'll tell you one thing that's always I'll tell you one thing that's always fascinated me in this sort of comparison fascinated me in this sort of comparison fascinated me in this sort of comparison ancient modern is how people don't learn ancient modern is how people don't learn ancient modern is how people don't learn the lessons of the past in military the lessons of the past in military the lessons of the past in military history and the very specific example history and the very specific example history and the very specific example that in my lifetime I've seen play out that in my lifetime I've seen play out that in my lifetime I've seen play out twice is just certain places people make twice is just certain places people make twice is just certain places people make the same mistakes over and over again so the same mistakes over and over again so the same mistakes over and over again so uh a nice example is Afghanistan or uh a nice example is Afghanistan or uh a nice example is Afghanistan or roughly that sort of Northern Pakistan roughly that sort of Northern Pakistan roughly that sort of Northern Pakistan slash into what is Afghanistan I mean slash into what is Afghanistan I mean slash into what is Afghanistan I mean that is a geographic region that over that is a geographic region that over that is a geographic region that over and over again the best most and over again the best most and over again the best most sophisticated armies in the world have

sophisticated armies in the world have sophisticated armies in the world have invaded and have met horrible failure invaded and have met horrible failure invaded and have met horrible failure and that goes all the way back to you and that goes all the way back to you and that goes all the way back to you know Alexander the Great tried to know Alexander the Great tried to know Alexander the Great tried to conquer that area the Mongols tried to conquer that area the Mongols tried to conquer that area the Mongols tried to do it the Huns tried to do it the Mughal do it the Huns tried to do it the Mughal do it the Huns tried to do it the Mughal tried to do it uh you know Victorian tried to do it uh you know Victorian tried to do it uh you know Victorian Britain tried to do it the Russians Britain tried to do it the Russians Britain tried to do it the Russians tried to do it the Americans tried to do tried to do it the Americans tried to do tried to do it the Americans tried to do it and they made the very same mistakes it and they made the very same mistakes it and they made the very same mistakes over and over and over again and the two over and over and over again and the two over and over and over again and the two mistakes are not understanding the mistakes are not understanding the mistakes are not understanding the terrain that it's a rocky mountainous terrain that it's a rocky mountainous terrain that it's a rocky mountainous area that people can always hide in area that people can always hide in area that people can always hide in caves and it's not understanding the caves and it's not understanding the caves and it's not understanding the fundamentally tribal nature of that area fundamentally tribal nature of that area fundamentally tribal nature of that area that that's where the real Allegiance is that that's where the real Allegiance is that that's where the real Allegiance is is in these tribes it's not in a is in these tribes it's not in a is in these tribes it's not in a centralized government and that's the centralized government and that's the centralized government and that's the same error Alexander made as you know same error Alexander made as you know same error Alexander made as you know the British made in the 19th century as the British made in the 19th century as the British made in the 19th century as the Russians as the Americans and it's the Russians as the Americans and it's the Russians as the Americans and it's just it's so depressing as a historian just it's so depressing as a historian just it's so depressing as a historian who studies history to see these things who studies history to see these things who studies history to see these things being repeated over and over again and being repeated over and over again and being repeated over and over again and you know exactly what's going to happen you know exactly what's going to happen you know exactly what's going to happen for leaders not to be learning lessons for leaders not to be learning lessons for leaders not to be learning lessons of History you co-wrote a book precisely of History you co-wrote a book precisely of History you co-wrote a book precisely on this topic the long shadow of anti on this topic the long shadow of anti on this topic the long shadow of anti ity what have the Greeks and Romans done ity what have the Greeks and Romans done ity what have the Greeks and Romans done for us uh what are some key elements of for us uh what are some key elements of for us uh what are some key elements of antiquity uh that are reflected in the antiquity uh that are reflected in the antiquity uh that are reflected in the modern world yeah this a book that uh my modern world yeah this a book that uh my modern world yeah this a book that uh my wife and I wrote together and it is wife and I wrote together and it is wife and I wrote together and it is trying to make people understand how deeply

to make people understand how deeply rooted are current actions in almost rooted are current actions in almost rooted are current actions in almost every way even things that we think are every way even things that we think are every way even things that we think are just in truly uh unique parts of our just in truly uh unique parts of our just in truly uh unique parts of our culture or things that we think are just culture or things that we think are just culture or things that we think are just inate to human nature are actually inate to human nature are actually inate to human nature are actually rooted in the past so there's another rooted in the past so there's another rooted in the past so there's another power of the past thing um and this is power of the past thing um and this is power of the past thing um and this is just a long specific list of examples just a long specific list of examples just a long specific list of examples really so I mean we go through really so I mean we go through really so I mean we go through government and education and government and education and government and education and intellectual stuff and art and intellectual stuff and art and intellectual stuff and art and architecture and you know a lot of the architecture and you know a lot of the architecture and you know a lot of the things we've been talking about today um things we've been talking about today um things we've been talking about today um language um culture medicine but even language um culture medicine but even language um culture medicine but even things like you know habits um the way things like you know habits um the way things like you know habits um the way we celebrate things the way we get we celebrate things the way we get we celebrate things the way we get married our married rituals have all married our married rituals have all married our married rituals have all sorts of things in common with Roman sorts of things in common with Roman sorts of things in common with Roman weddings the calendar the calendar uh weddings the calendar the calendar uh weddings the calendar the calendar uh the words we're using Julius Caesar's the words we're using Julius Caesar's the words we're using Julius Caesar's calendar I mean Pope Gregory did one calendar I mean Pope Gregory did one calendar I mean Pope Gregory did one tiny little twist but Caesar's the one tiny little twist but Caesar's the one tiny little twist but Caesar's the one who basically came up with our current who basically came up with our current who basically came up with our current calendar with 365 Days 12 months uh leap calendar with 365 Days 12 months uh leap calendar with 365 Days 12 months uh leap years all that um you know so we're years all that um you know so we're years all that um you know so we're living in law uh there's just no way to living in law uh there's just no way to living in law uh there's just no way to escape the power of the past and what I escape the power of the past and what I escape the power of the past and what I believe very ardently is that you can't believe very ardently is that you can't believe very ardently is that you can't make good decisions in the present and make good decisions in the present and make good decisions in the present and you can't make good decisions about the you can't make good decisions about the you can't make good decisions about the future with without understanding the future with without understanding the future with without understanding the past and that's not just true with your past and that's not just true with your past and that's not just true with your own life but it's in understanding own life but it's in understanding own life but it's in understanding others so it's not only your own past others so it's not only your own past others so it's not only your own past you have to understand but you have to you have to understand but you have to you have to understand but you have to understand other people what's understand other people what's understand other people what's influencing them so you can't interact influencing them so you can't interact influencing them so you can't interact with others unless you understand where with others unless you understand where with others unless you understand where they're coming from and the answer to they're coming from and the answer to they're coming from and the answer to where they're coming from is where they where they're coming from is where they where they're coming from is where they came from um and what shaped them and came from um and what shaped them and came from um and what shaped them and what forces affect them so I I think

what forces affect them so I I think what forces affect them so I I think it's absolutely vital to have some it's absolutely vital to have some it's absolutely vital to have some understanding of the past uh in order to understanding of the past uh in order to understanding of the past uh in order to make competent decisions in the present make competent decisions in the present make competent decisions in the present well what are some of the problems when well what are some of the problems when well what are some of the problems when we try to gain lessons from history and we try to gain lessons from history and we try to gain lessons from history and look back we've spoken about them a bit look back we've spoken about them a bit look back we've spoken about them a bit the bias of the the bias of the the bias of the historian um maybe what are the problems historian um maybe what are the problems historian um maybe what are the problems in studying history and how do we avoid in studying history and how do we avoid in studying history and how do we avoid them probably the biggest problems them probably the biggest problems them probably the biggest problems are the sources themselves the are the sources themselves the are the sources themselves the incompleteness of them and this gets incompleteness of them and this gets incompleteness of them and this gets more intense the farther back we go in more intense the farther back we go in more intense the farther back we go in time yes so if you say I want to write a time yes so if you say I want to write a time yes so if you say I want to write a book about the 19th century there is book about the 19th century there is book about the 19th century there is more material available for almost any more material available for almost any more material available for almost any topic you want to pick than you could topic you want to pick than you could topic you want to pick than you could possibly go through in your lifetime if possibly go through in your lifetime if possibly go through in your lifetime if you say I want to write a book about the you say I want to write a book about the you say I want to write a book about the Roman world this is a very different Roman world this is a very different Roman world this is a very different thing um in my office I have a bookshelf thing um in my office I have a bookshelf thing um in my office I have a bookshelf that's I don't know 8 feet high 10 ft that's I don't know 8 feet high 10 ft that's I don't know 8 feet high 10 ft wide and it contains pretty much all the wide and it contains pretty much all the wide and it contains pretty much all the main surviving Greek and Roman literary main surviving Greek and Roman literary main surviving Greek and Roman literary texts okay one bookshelf wow it's a big texts okay one bookshelf wow it's a big texts okay one bookshelf wow it's a big bookshelf yeah but that's what we use to bookshelf yeah but that's what we use to bookshelf yeah but that's what we use to interpret this world now there's a lot interpret this world now there's a lot interpret this world now there's a lot of other types of text there's you know of other types of text there's you know of other types of text there's you know um papy there's all sorts of things they um papy there's all sorts of things they um papy there's all sorts of things they inscriptions there's archaeological inscriptions there's archaeological inscriptions there's archaeological evidence so there's other stuff but evidence so there's other stuff but evidence so there's other stuff but honestly you know 99% of things about honestly you know 99% of things about honestly you know 99% of things about the world I study are lost so then you the world I study are lost so then you the world I study are lost so then you get into all the issues are you know is

get into all the issues are you know is get into all the issues are you know is what we have surviving a representative what we have surviving a representative what we have surviving a representative example we know it's not for example all example we know it's not for example all example we know it's not for example all the literary texts are written by one the literary texts are written by one the literary texts are written by one tiny group Elite males M um so that tiny group Elite males M um so that tiny group Elite males M um so that that's a problem there there's the that's a problem there there's the that's a problem there there's the problem of bias we know that they're not problem of bias we know that they're not problem of bias we know that they're not necessarily telling us the truth they necessarily telling us the truth they necessarily telling us the truth they they have an agenda you know they're they have an agenda you know they're they have an agenda you know they're they're representing history in a they're representing history in a they're representing history in a certain way to achieve certain things certain way to achieve certain things certain way to achieve certain things then there's the problem of transmission then there's the problem of transmission then there's the problem of transmission I mean all those texts are copies of I mean all those texts are copies of I mean all those texts are copies of copies of copies of copies and everybody copies of copies of copies and everybody copies of copies of copies and everybody knows that game where you know you knows that game where you know you knows that game where you know you whisper a sentence to someone and then whisper a sentence to someone and then whisper a sentence to someone and then go around the room are you going to get go around the room are you going to get go around the room are you going to get that same sentence back well every that same sentence back well every that same sentence back well every ancient text we have has gone through ancient text we have has gone through ancient text we have has gone through that process that process that process um so this is a real problem and that's um so this is a real problem and that's um so this is a real problem and that's just with the sources right and this is just with the sources right and this is just with the sources right and this is the historic era when you move back just the historic era when you move back just the historic era when you move back just a little earlier to the prehistoric era a little earlier to the prehistoric era a little earlier to the prehistoric era or to civilizations that don't have or to civilizations that don't have or to civilizations that don't have written sources surviving and some of written sources surviving and some of written sources surviving and some of these are ancient Mediterranean ones I these are ancient Mediterranean ones I these are ancient Mediterranean ones I mean anything goes um I mean one of the mean anything goes um I mean one of the mean anything goes um I mean one of the jokes is that museums archaeological jokes is that museums archaeological jokes is that museums archaeological museums are full of objects which are museums are full of objects which are museums are full of objects which are labeled cult object it's some religious labeled cult object it's some religious labeled cult object it's some religious object object object and I think the honest label that should and I think the honest label that should and I think the honest label that should be on that thing is we have no idea what be on that thing is we have no idea what be on that thing is we have no idea what the hell this is but I want to believe the hell this is but I want to believe the hell this is but I want to believe it's something important so I'm going to it's something important so I'm going to it's something important so I'm going to say it's a religious object but in say it's a religious object but in say it's a religious object but in reality you know it's an ancient toilet reality you know it's an ancient toilet reality you know it's an ancient toilet paper roll holder or something and it's paper roll holder or something and it's paper roll holder or something and it's a huge problem when you try to interpret a huge problem when you try to interpret a huge problem when you try to interpret a civilization without written texts and a civilization without written texts and a civilization without written texts and and my favorite little story that that and my favorite little story that that and my favorite little story that that kind of illustrates this is um in the

kind of illustrates this is um in the kind of illustrates this is um in the 19th century this this German who had 19th century this this German who had 19th century this this German who had gone to School in England okay one of gone to School in England okay one of gone to School in England okay one of the best educated guys of his time goes the best educated guys of his time goes the best educated guys of his time goes to North Africa and is poking around in to North Africa and is poking around in to North Africa and is poking around in the desert and he finds this site with the desert and he finds this site with the desert and he finds this site with these huge Stone monoliths 10t tall in these huge Stone monoliths 10t tall in these huge Stone monoliths 10t tall in pairs and there's a a lentil Stone pairs and there's a a lentil Stone pairs and there's a a lentil Stone across the top so sort of like big you across the top so sort of like big you across the top so sort of like big you know uh two posts with a stone across know uh two posts with a stone across know uh two posts with a stone across the top and there's a big Stone in front the top and there's a big Stone in front the top and there's a big Stone in front of them too and so he looks at this of them too and so he looks at this of them too and so he looks at this stuff and he says well what does this stuff and he says well what does this stuff and he says well what does this remind me of it reminds me of Stonehenge remind me of it reminds me of Stonehenge remind me of it reminds me of Stonehenge right and there's even a site where right and there's even a site where right and there's even a site where there's multiple of these kind of in a there's multiple of these kind of in a there's multiple of these kind of in a square so he goes back and talks about square so he goes back and talks about square so he goes back and talks about this and an Englishman goes and studies this and an Englishman goes and studies this and an Englishman goes and studies them and he finds a ton of these sites them and he finds a ton of these sites them and he finds a ton of these sites and he finds some of them where there's and he finds some of them where there's and he finds some of them where there's 17 of these pairs and so he goes back 17 of these pairs and so he goes back 17 of these pairs and so he goes back and he writes a whole book about how and he writes a whole book about how and he writes a whole book about how clearly the Celtic peoples who once clearly the Celtic peoples who once clearly the Celtic peoples who once lived in Britain came originally from lived in Britain came originally from lived in Britain came originally from North Africa because he's found this North Africa because he's found this North Africa because he's found this site and he reconstructs the religion site and he reconstructs the religion site and he reconstructs the religion where obviously they practice religious where obviously they practice religious where obviously they practice religious rituals here and they had rights of rituals here and they had rights of rituals here and they had rights of Passage they squeez between the things Passage they squeez between the things Passage they squeez between the things and the alter stones have this Basin so and the alter stones have this Basin so and the alter stones have this Basin so they had blood sacrifice and all this they had blood sacrifice and all this they had blood sacrifice and all this and it seemed reasonable and then you and it seemed reasonable and then you and it seemed reasonable and then you know you ask some locals well what know you ask some locals well what know you ask some locals well what what's that stuff out in the desert what's that stuff out in the desert what's that stuff out in the desert there and they me oh the old Roman olive there and they me oh the old Roman olive there and they me oh the old Roman olive oil factory and those are the remains of oil factory and those are the remains of oil factory and those are the remains of an olive press and we're back to olives an olive press and we're back to olives an olive press and we're back to olives I keep dwelling on olives olives don't I keep dwelling on olives olives don't I keep dwelling on olives olives don't grow in England or Germany yeah so this grow in England or Germany yeah so this grow in England or Germany yeah so this is cultural bias if all you have is is cultural bias if all you have is is cultural bias if all you have is physical evidence you're going to

physical evidence you're going to physical evidence you're going to interpret that evidence through your own interpret that evidence through your own interpret that evidence through your own cultural biases so if you're an cultural biases so if you're an cultural biases so if you're an Englishman and you see Big Stone Englishman and you see Big Stone Englishman and you see Big Stone uprights like this you're going to think uprights like this you're going to think uprights like this you're going to think Stonehenge if you're from the Stonehenge if you're from the Stonehenge if you're from the Mediterranean you're going to think all Mediterranean you're going to think all Mediterranean you're going to think all of press of press of press so that's a salutory example I think of so that's a salutory example I think of so that's a salutory example I think of the dangers of interpreting physical the dangers of interpreting physical the dangers of interpreting physical evidence when you don't have written evidence when you don't have written evidence when you don't have written evidence to go along with it and you evidence to go along with it and you evidence to go along with it and you know think today like if if our know think today like if if our know think today like if if our civilization were to blow up in a civilization were to blow up in a civilization were to blow up in a nuclear war and archaeologists were to nuclear war and archaeologists were to nuclear war and archaeologists were to dig this up you know how might they dig this up you know how might they dig this up you know how might they misinterpret things I mean if if they misinterpret things I mean if if they misinterpret things I mean if if they were to you know um dig up a college were to you know um dig up a college were to you know um dig up a college dorm like where I work um and that's dorm like where I work um and that's dorm like where I work um and that's what you had for this civilization you'd what you had for this civilization you'd what you had for this civilization you'd probably go in the dorm rooms you'd find probably go in the dorm rooms you'd find probably go in the dorm rooms you'd find all these little rooms and maybe in all these little rooms and maybe in all these little rooms and maybe in every room you would find this every room you would find this every room you would find this mysterious plastic disc and so everybody mysterious plastic disc and so everybody mysterious plastic disc and so everybody has these so it must be a cult object has these so it must be a cult object has these so it must be a cult object and it's round so obviously there's Sun and it's round so obviously there's Sun and it's round so obviously there's Sun worshippers and if you can decipher the worshippers and if you can decipher the worshippers and if you can decipher the inscription you'll see that obviously inscription you'll see that obviously inscription you'll see that obviously they all Worship the Great Sun God whmo they all Worship the Great Sun God whmo they all Worship the Great Sun God whmo you know it's like what do you find in you know it's like what do you find in you know it's like what do you find in every door room of frisbee yeah so every door room of frisbee yeah so every door room of frisbee yeah so that's that's the level of that's that's the level of that's that's the level of interpretation you have to beware of and interpretation you have to beware of and interpretation you have to beware of and there's examples where we've done there's examples where we've done there's examples where we've done exactly this so we have we have to have exactly this so we have we have to have exactly this so we have we have to have intellectual humility when we look back intellectual humility when we look back intellectual humility when we look back into the past but hopefully is if you into the past but hopefully is if you into the past but hopefully is if you have that without coming up with really have that without coming up with really have that without coming up with really strong narratives if you look at a large strong narratives if you look at a large strong narratives if you look at a large variety of evidence you can start to variety of evidence you can start to variety of evidence you can start to construct a picture that's somewhat

construct a picture that's somewhat construct a picture that's somewhat rhymes rhymes rhymes yes with the truth yes I mean that's as yes with the truth yes I mean that's as yes with the truth yes I mean that's as a professional historian that's what you a professional historian that's what you a professional historian that's what you do you you attempt to reconstruct an do you you attempt to reconstruct an do you you attempt to reconstruct an image of the past that is faithful to image of the past that is faithful to image of the past that is faithful to the evidence you have as filtered the evidence you have as filtered the evidence you have as filtered through what you can perceive of both through what you can perceive of both through what you can perceive of both the biases and the problems of the the biases and the problems of the the biases and the problems of the source material and your own biases and source material and your own biases and source material and your own biases and it's a interpretation it's a it's a interpretation it's a it's a interpretation it's a reconstruction but it's a lot like reconstruction but it's a lot like reconstruction but it's a lot like science where you you're in a process of science where you you're in a process of science where you you're in a process of constantly re-evaluating it and saying constantly re-evaluating it and saying constantly re-evaluating it and saying okay hear some new evidence how do I okay hear some new evidence how do I okay hear some new evidence how do I work this into the picture how do I now work this into the picture how do I now work this into the picture how do I now adjust it um and and that's what's fun I adjust it um and and that's what's fun I adjust it um and and that's what's fun I mean it is it's a mystery you know it's mean it is it's a mystery you know it's mean it is it's a mystery you know it's it's it's you're being a detective and it's it's you're being a detective and it's it's you're being a detective and trying to reconstruct and to understand trying to reconstruct and to understand trying to reconstruct and to understand a society and it's even more fun where a society and it's even more fun where a society and it's even more fun where it's yeah you have to try to empathize it's yeah you have to try to empathize it's yeah you have to try to empathize empathy is a great human thing to empathy is a great human thing to empathy is a great human thing to empathize with people who are not empathize with people who are not empathize with people who are not yourself um and we should do this all yourself um and we should do this all yourself um and we should do this all the time with just the people we the time with just the people we the time with just the people we encounter but this is what we're doing encounter but this is what we're doing encounter but this is what we're doing with ancient civilizations and as I with ancient civilizations and as I with ancient civilizations and as I talked about earlier sometimes you'll talked about earlier sometimes you'll talked about earlier sometimes you'll feel great sympathy there sometimes feel great sympathy there sometimes feel great sympathy there sometimes you'll feel incomprehension but by being you'll feel incomprehension but by being you'll feel incomprehension but by being aware of both of those you can maybe aware of both of those you can maybe aware of both of those you can maybe begin to get some grasp however begin to get some grasp however begin to get some grasp however tentative on the truth as you might tentative on the truth as you might tentative on the truth as you might perceive it to ask a ridiculous question perceive it to ask a ridiculous question perceive it to ask a ridiculous question when our time you and I we together uh when our time you and I we together uh when our time you and I we together uh become ancient history when historians become ancient history when historians become ancient history when historians let's say 2 3 4,000 years from now look let's say 2 3 4,000 years from now look let's say 2 3 4,000 years from now look back at our time and uh like you try to

back at our time and uh like you try to back at our time and uh like you try to look at the details and reconstruct from look at the details and reconstruct from look at the details and reconstruct from that the big picture what was going on that the big picture what was going on that the big picture what was going on uh what do you think they'll say I would uh what do you think they'll say I would uh what do you think they'll say I would guess it'll be something that's actually guess it'll be something that's actually guess it'll be something that's actually more of a commentary on whatever's going more of a commentary on whatever's going more of a commentary on whatever's going on at that point than on the reality of on at that point than on the reality of on at that point than on the reality of us because that's what we tend to do us because that's what we tend to do us because that's what we tend to do I'll tell you what I'd like to have them I'll tell you what I'd like to have them I'll tell you what I'd like to have them say is to say in this civilization I can say is to say in this civilization I can say is to say in this civilization I can detect progress that they have advanced detect progress that they have advanced detect progress that they have advanced in some way whether kind of in moral in some way whether kind of in moral in some way whether kind of in moral terms or in self-awareness or have terms or in self-awareness or have terms or in self-awareness or have learned from what's come before I me learned from what's come before I me learned from what's come before I me that's all you can try and do is do a that's all you can try and do is do a that's all you can try and do is do a little bit better than whatever came little bit better than whatever came little bit better than whatever came before you to look back at what happened before you to look back at what happened before you to look back at what happened and and try to do something um Livy I and and try to do something um Livy I and and try to do something um Livy I mean one of the great Roman historians mean one of the great Roman historians mean one of the great Roman historians at the beginning of his work a history at the beginning of his work a history at the beginning of his work a history of Rome which is this massive thing he of Rome which is this massive thing he of Rome which is this massive thing he says the the utility and the purpose of says the the utility and the purpose of says the the utility and the purpose of history is this it provides you an history is this it provides you an history is this it provides you an infinite variety of experiences and infinite variety of experiences and infinite variety of experiences and models Noble things to imitate and models Noble things to imitate and models Noble things to imitate and shameful things to void and I think he's shameful things to void and I think he's shameful things to void and I think he's right and they would perhaps be better right and they would perhaps be better right and they would perhaps be better at highlighting which shameful things we at highlighting which shameful things we at highlighting which shameful things we started avoiding and which uh Noble started avoiding and which uh Noble started avoiding and which uh Noble things we started imitating with a with things we started imitating with a with things we started imitating with a with a perspective of History they'll be able a perspective of History they'll be able a perspective of History they'll be able to identify uh or maybe with the bias of to identify uh or maybe with the bias of to identify uh or maybe with the bias of the historians of the time um well in the historians of the time um well in the historians of the time um well in that grand perspective what gives you that grand perspective what gives you that grand perspective what gives you hope about our future as a Humanity as a hope about our future as a Humanity as a hope about our future as a Humanity as a civilization we have curiosity civilization we have curiosity civilization we have curiosity um I think curiosity is a great thing

um I think curiosity is a great thing um I think curiosity is a great thing that you want to learn something new I that you want to learn something new I that you want to learn something new I think the human impulse to want to new think the human impulse to want to new think the human impulse to want to new learn new stuff is one of our best learn new stuff is one of our best learn new stuff is one of our best characteristics and at least up to this characteristics and at least up to this characteristics and at least up to this point what makes us special is the point what makes us special is the point what makes us special is the ability to store up uh an accumulation ability to store up uh an accumulation ability to store up uh an accumulation of knowledge and to pass that knowledge of knowledge and to pass that knowledge of knowledge and to pass that knowledge On to the Next Generation I mean that's On to the Next Generation I mean that's On to the Next Generation I mean that's really all we are we're we're the really all we are we're we're the really all we are we're we're the accumulation of the knowledge of accumulation of the knowledge of accumulation of the knowledge of infinite Generations they've come before infinite Generations they've come before infinite Generations they've come before us um and everything we do is based on us um and everything we do is based on us um and everything we do is based on that wise we'd all just be starting you that wise we'd all just be starting you that wise we'd all just be starting you know Ground Zero kind of just from the know Ground Zero kind of just from the know Ground Zero kind of just from the beginning so our ability to store up beginning so our ability to store up beginning so our ability to store up knowledge and pass it on I think is our knowledge and pass it on I think is our knowledge and pass it on I think is our special power as human beings um and I special power as human beings um and I special power as human beings um and I think our curiosity is what keeps us think our curiosity is what keeps us think our curiosity is what keeps us going going going forward I agree and uh for that I thank forward I agree and uh for that I thank forward I agree and uh for that I thank you for being one of the most wonderful you for being one of the most wonderful you for being one of the most wonderful examples of that uh of you yourself examples of that uh of you yourself examples of that uh of you yourself being a curious being and emanating that being a curious being and emanating that being a curious being and emanating that throughout and inspiring a lot of other throughout and inspiring a lot of other throughout and inspiring a lot of other people to be Curious by being out there people to be Curious by being out there people to be Curious by being out there in the world and teaching and uh so in the world and teaching and uh so in the world and teaching and uh so thank you for that and thank you for thank you for that and thank you for thank you for that and thank you for talking today no enjoyed it it's fun I talking today no enjoyed it it's fun I talking today no enjoyed it it's fun I obviously like talking about obviously like talking about obviously like talking about this thanks for listening to this this thanks for listening to this this thanks for listening to this conversation with Gregory ALR to support conversation with Gregory ALR to support conversation with Gregory ALR to support this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let sponsors in the description and now let sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from Julius me leave you with some words from Julius me leave you with some words from Julius Caesar I came I saw I Caesar I came I saw I Caesar I came I saw I conquered thank you for listening and conquered thank you for listening and conquered thank you for listening and hope to see you next time