Kate Darling: Social Robots, Ethics, Privacy and the Future of MIT | Lex Fridman Podcast #329

I think that animals are a really great I think that animals are a really great thought experiment when we're thinking thought experiment when we're thinking thought experiment when we're thinking about Ai and Robotics because again this about Ai and Robotics because again this about Ai and Robotics because again this comparing them to humans that leads us comparing them to humans that leads us comparing them to humans that leads us down the wrong path both because it's down the wrong path both because it's down the wrong path both because it's not accurate but also I think for the not accurate but also I think for the not accurate but also I think for the future we don't want that future we don't want that future we don't want that we want something that's a supplement we want something that's a supplement we want something that's a supplement but I think animals because we've used but I think animals because we've used but I think animals because we've used them throughout history for so many them throughout history for so many them throughout history for so many different things we we domesticated them different things we we domesticated them different things we we domesticated them not because they do what we do but not because they do what we do but not because they do what we do but because what they do is different and because what they do is different and because what they do is different and that's useful and I it's just like that's useful and I it's just like that's useful and I it's just like whether we're talking about whether we're talking about whether we're talking about companionship whether we're talking companionship whether we're talking companionship whether we're talking about work integration whether we're about work integration whether we're about work integration whether we're talking about responsibility for harm talking about responsibility for harm talking about responsibility for harm there's just so many things we can draw there's just so many things we can draw there's just so many things we can draw on in that history from these entities on in that history from these entities on in that history from these entities that can sense think make autonomous that can sense think make autonomous that can sense think make autonomous decisions and learn that are applicable decisions and learn that are applicable decisions and learn that are applicable to how we should be thinking about to how we should be thinking about to how we should be thinking about robots and AI the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with Kate darling her second time on the Kate darling her second time on the Kate darling her second time on the podcast she's a research scientist at podcast she's a research scientist at podcast she's a research scientist at MIT media lab interested in human robot MIT media lab interested in human robot MIT media lab interested in human robot interaction and robot ethics which she interaction and robot ethics which she interaction and robot ethics which she writes about in her recent book called writes about in her recent book called writes about in her recent book called The New Breed what our history with The New Breed what our history with The New Breed what our history with animals reveals about our future with animals reveals about our future with animals reveals about our future with robots Kate is one of my favorite people robots Kate is one of my favorite people robots Kate is one of my favorite people at MIT she was a courageous voice of at MIT she was a courageous voice of at MIT she was a courageous voice of reason and compassion through the time reason and compassion through the time reason and compassion through the time of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal at MIT of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal at MIT of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal at MIT three years ago we reflect on this time three years ago we reflect on this time three years ago we reflect on this time in this very conversation including the in this very conversation including the in this very conversation including the lessons that revealed about human nature lessons that revealed about human nature lessons that revealed about human nature and our optimistic vision for the future and our optimistic vision for the future and our optimistic vision for the future of MIT a university we both love and

of MIT a university we both love and of MIT a university we both love and believe in believe in believe in this is the Lux freedom of podcast to this is the Lux freedom of podcast to this is the Lux freedom of podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's Kate darling here's Kate darling here's Kate darling last time we talked a few years back you last time we talked a few years back you last time we talked a few years back you wore Justin Bieber shirt for the podcast wore Justin Bieber shirt for the podcast wore Justin Bieber shirt for the podcast so now looking back you're respected so now looking back you're respected so now looking back you're respected um researcher all the amazing um researcher all the amazing um researcher all the amazing accomplishments in robotics uh you're an accomplishments in robotics uh you're an accomplishments in robotics uh you're an author was this one of the proudest author was this one of the proudest author was this one of the proudest moments of your life uh proudest moments of your life uh proudest moments of your life uh proudest decisions you've ever made definitely decisions you've ever made definitely decisions you've ever made definitely you handled it really well though it was you handled it really well though it was you handled it really well though it was cool because I walked in I didn't know cool because I walked in I didn't know cool because I walked in I didn't know you were going to be filming I walked in you were going to be filming I walked in you were going to be filming I walked in and you're in a fucking suit yeah and and you're in a fucking suit yeah and and you're in a fucking suit yeah and I'm like why are you all dressed up yeah I'm like why are you all dressed up yeah I'm like why are you all dressed up yeah and then you were so nice about it you and then you were so nice about it you and then you were so nice about it you like made some excuse you're like oh like made some excuse you're like oh like made some excuse you're like oh well I'm interviewing some art didn't well I'm interviewing some art didn't well I'm interviewing some art didn't you say you were interviewing some you say you were interviewing some you say you were interviewing some military General afterwards to like oh military General afterwards to like oh military General afterwards to like oh yeah those makes me feel better CTO of yeah those makes me feel better CTO of yeah those makes me feel better CTO of Lockheed Martin I think Lockheed Martin I think Lockheed Martin I think yeah you didn't tell me oh I was dressed yeah you didn't tell me oh I was dressed yeah you didn't tell me oh I was dressed like this are you an actual Bieber fan like this are you an actual Bieber fan like this are you an actual Bieber fan or was that like one of those t-shirts or was that like one of those t-shirts or was that like one of those t-shirts that's in the back of the closet that that's in the back of the closet that that's in the back of the closet that you use for painting I think I bought it you use for painting I think I bought it you use for painting I think I bought it for my husband as a joke and yeah I was for my husband as a joke and yeah I was for my husband as a joke and yeah I was we were gut renovating a house at the we were gut renovating a house at the we were gut renovating a house at the time and I had worn it to the site time and I had worn it to the site time and I had worn it to the site I got his joke and now you wear it okay I got his joke and now you wear it okay I got his joke and now you wear it okay have you worn it since have you worn it since have you worn it since one time one time one time no like how could I touch it again it no like how could I touch it again it no like how could I touch it again it was on your podcast that's frames it's was on your podcast that's frames it's was on your podcast that's frames it's like a wedding dress or something like like a wedding dress or something like like a wedding dress or something like that you don't you only wear it once you that you don't you only wear it once you that you don't you only wear it once you are the author of The New Breed what our

are the author of The New Breed what our are the author of The New Breed what our history with animals reveals about our history with animals reveals about our history with animals reveals about our future with robots future with robots future with robots you open the book with the surprisingly you open the book with the surprisingly you open the book with the surprisingly tricky question what is a robot so let tricky question what is a robot so let tricky question what is a robot so let me ask you let's try to sneak up to this me ask you let's try to sneak up to this me ask you let's try to sneak up to this question what's a robot that's not question what's a robot that's not question what's a robot that's not really sneaking up really sneaking up really sneaking up it's just asking it yeah all right well it's just asking it yeah all right well it's just asking it yeah all right well what do you think a robot is what I what do you think a robot is what I what do you think a robot is what I think a robot is is something that has think a robot is is something that has think a robot is is something that has some level of intelligence some level of intelligence some level of intelligence and some level of magic and some level of magic and some level of magic that little shine in the eye you know that little shine in the eye you know that little shine in the eye you know that allows you to navigate the that allows you to navigate the that allows you to navigate the uncertainty of uh of life so that means uncertainty of uh of life so that means uncertainty of uh of life so that means like autonomous vehicles to me in that like autonomous vehicles to me in that like autonomous vehicles to me in that sense uh are robots because they sense uh are robots because they sense uh are robots because they navigate navigate navigate uh the uncertainty the complexity of uh the uncertainty the complexity of uh the uncertainty the complexity of life life life obviously social robots are that I love obviously social robots are that I love obviously social robots are that I love that that that I like that you mentioned magic because I like that you mentioned magic because I like that you mentioned magic because that also that also that also well so first of all I don't Define well so first of all I don't Define well so first of all I don't Define robot definitively in the book because robot definitively in the book because robot definitively in the book because there is no definitely that everyone there is no definitely that everyone there is no definitely that everyone agrees on and if you look back through agrees on and if you look back through agrees on and if you look back through time time time people have called things robots until people have called things robots until people have called things robots until they lose the magic because they're more they lose the magic because they're more they lose the magic because they're more ubiquitous like a vending machine used ubiquitous like a vending machine used ubiquitous like a vending machine used to be called a robot and now it's not to be called a robot and now it's not to be called a robot and now it's not right so I do agree with you that right so I do agree with you that right so I do agree with you that there's this magic aspect that there's this magic aspect that there's this magic aspect that that which is how people understand that which is how people understand that which is how people understand robots robots robots if you ask a roboticist they have the

if you ask a roboticist they have the if you ask a roboticist they have the definition of something that is well it definition of something that is well it definition of something that is well it has to be physical usually it's not an has to be physical usually it's not an has to be physical usually it's not an AI agent it has to be embodied AI agent it has to be embodied AI agent it has to be embodied um they'll say it has to be able to um they'll say it has to be able to um they'll say it has to be able to sense this environment in some way it sense this environment in some way it sense this environment in some way it has to be able to make a decision has to be able to make a decision has to be able to make a decision autonomously and then act on its autonomously and then act on its autonomously and then act on its environment again environment again environment again I think that's a pretty good technical I think that's a pretty good technical I think that's a pretty good technical definition even though it really breaks definition even though it really breaks definition even though it really breaks down when you come to things like the down when you come to things like the down when you come to things like the smartphone because the smartphone can do smartphone because the smartphone can do smartphone because the smartphone can do all of those things and most robotics all of those things and most robotics all of those things and most robotics would not call it a robot so there's would not call it a robot so there's would not call it a robot so there's really no no one good definition but really no no one good definition but really no no one good definition but part of why I wrote the book is because part of why I wrote the book is because part of why I wrote the book is because people have a definition of robot in people have a definition of robot in people have a definition of robot in their minds that is their minds that is their minds that is usually very focused on a comparison of usually very focused on a comparison of usually very focused on a comparison of robots to humans so if you Google image robots to humans so if you Google image robots to humans so if you Google image search robot you get a bunch of humanoid search robot you get a bunch of humanoid search robot you get a bunch of humanoid robots robots with that torso and head robots robots with that torso and head robots robots with that torso and head and two arms and two legs and two arms and two legs and two arms and two legs and that's and that's and that's the definition of robot that I'm trying the definition of robot that I'm trying the definition of robot that I'm trying to get us away from because I think that to get us away from because I think that to get us away from because I think that it trips us up a lot why does the it trips us up a lot why does the it trips us up a lot why does the humanoid form trip us up a lot well humanoid form trip us up a lot well humanoid form trip us up a lot well because this constant comparison of because this constant comparison of because this constant comparison of robots to people artificial intelligence robots to people artificial intelligence robots to people artificial intelligence to human intelligence to human intelligence to human intelligence first of all it doesn't make sense from first of all it doesn't make sense from first of all it doesn't make sense from a technical perspective because a technical perspective because a technical perspective because you know the early AI researchers some you know the early AI researchers some you know the early AI researchers some of them were trying to recreate human of them were trying to recreate human of them were trying to recreate human intelligence some people still are and intelligence some people still are and intelligence some people still are and there's a lot to be learned from that there's a lot to be learned from that there's a lot to be learned from that academically Etc but academically Etc but academically Etc but um that's not where We've Ended up AI um that's not where We've Ended up AI um that's not where We've Ended up AI doesn't think like people we wind up in doesn't think like people we wind up in doesn't think like people we wind up in this fallacy where we're where we're

this fallacy where we're where we're this fallacy where we're where we're comparing these two comparing these two comparing these two um and we're when we talk about what um and we're when we talk about what um and we're when we talk about what intelligence even is we're often intelligence even is we're often intelligence even is we're often comparing to our own intelligence and comparing to our own intelligence and comparing to our own intelligence and then then then the second reason this bothers me is the second reason this bothers me is the second reason this bothers me is because it doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense I I just think it's boring to recreate I I just think it's boring to recreate I I just think it's boring to recreate intelligence that we already have I see intelligence that we already have I see intelligence that we already have I see the scientific value of understanding the scientific value of understanding the scientific value of understanding our own intelligence but from a like our own intelligence but from a like our own intelligence but from a like practical what can we use these practical what can we use these practical what can we use these Technologies for perspective it's much Technologies for perspective it's much Technologies for perspective it's much more interesting to create something new more interesting to create something new more interesting to create something new to create a skill set that we don't have to create a skill set that we don't have to create a skill set that we don't have that we can partner with and what we're that we can partner with and what we're that we can partner with and what we're trying to achieve trying to achieve trying to achieve and it should be in some deep way and it should be in some deep way and it should be in some deep way similar to us but in most ways different similar to us but in most ways different similar to us but in most ways different because you still want to have a because you still want to have a because you still want to have a connection which is why the similarity connection which is why the similarity connection which is why the similarity might be necessary that's what people might be necessary that's what people might be necessary that's what people argue yes and I think that's true so the argue yes and I think that's true so the argue yes and I think that's true so the two arguments for humanoid robots are two arguments for humanoid robots are two arguments for humanoid robots are people need to be able to communicate people need to be able to communicate people need to be able to communicate and relate to robots and we relate most and relate to robots and we relate most and relate to robots and we relate most to things that are like ourselves to things that are like ourselves to things that are like ourselves and we have a world that's built for and we have a world that's built for and we have a world that's built for humans so we have stairs and narrow humans so we have stairs and narrow humans so we have stairs and narrow passageways and door handles and so we passageways and door handles and so we passageways and door handles and so we need humanoid robots to be able to need humanoid robots to be able to need humanoid robots to be able to navigate that and so you're speaking to navigate that and so you're speaking to navigate that and so you're speaking to the first one which is absolutely true the first one which is absolutely true the first one which is absolutely true but what we know from social Robotics but what we know from social Robotics but what we know from social Robotics and a lot of human robot interaction and a lot of human robot interaction and a lot of human robot interaction research is that you all you need is research is that you all you need is research is that you all you need is something that's enough like something that's enough like something that's enough like a person to for it to give off cues that a person to for it to give off cues that a person to for it to give off cues that someone relates to and that but that someone relates to and that but that someone relates to and that but that doesn't have to look human or even act

doesn't have to look human or even act doesn't have to look human or even act human you can take a robot like R2D2 and human you can take a robot like R2D2 and human you can take a robot like R2D2 and it just like beeps and boops and people it just like beeps and boops and people it just like beeps and boops and people love R2D2 right even though it's just love R2D2 right even though it's just love R2D2 right even though it's just like a trash can on Wheels and they like like a trash can on Wheels and they like like a trash can on Wheels and they like r2dging more than C-3PO who's a humanoid r2dging more than C-3PO who's a humanoid r2dging more than C-3PO who's a humanoid so there's lots of there's lots of ways so there's lots of there's lots of ways so there's lots of there's lots of ways to make robots even better than humans to make robots even better than humans to make robots even better than humans in some ways and make us relate more to in some ways and make us relate more to in some ways and make us relate more to them them them yeah it's kind of amazing the variety of yeah it's kind of amazing the variety of yeah it's kind of amazing the variety of cues that can be used to cues that can be used to cues that can be used to anthropomorphize the thing like a anthropomorphize the thing like a anthropomorphize the thing like a glowing orb or something like that yeah glowing orb or something like that yeah glowing orb or something like that yeah just just a voice just just a voice just just a voice just uh just subtle basic interaction I just uh just subtle basic interaction I just uh just subtle basic interaction I think people sometimes over engineer think people sometimes over engineer think people sometimes over engineer these things these things these things like Simplicity can go a really long way like Simplicity can go a really long way like Simplicity can go a really long way totally I mean ask any animator and totally I mean ask any animator and totally I mean ask any animator and they'll know that yeah yeah those are they'll know that yeah yeah those are they'll know that yeah yeah those are actually so the people behind Cosmo the actually so the people behind Cosmo the actually so the people behind Cosmo the um um um the the robot the the robot the the robot the right people to design those as the right people to design those as the right people to design those as animators like Disney type of people animators like Disney type of people animators like Disney type of people yeah versus like roboticists robotics is yeah versus like roboticists robotics is yeah versus like roboticists robotics is quote unquote are mostly Clueless quote unquote are mostly Clueless quote unquote are mostly Clueless they just have their own discipline that they just have their own discipline that they just have their own discipline that they're very good at and they didn't they're very good at and they didn't they're very good at and they didn't don't have yeah but that that don't don't have yeah but that that don't don't have yeah but that that don't don't you know I feel like robotics don't you know I feel like robotics don't you know I feel like robotics of the early 21st century of the early 21st century of the early 21st century is not going to be the robotics of the is not going to be the robotics of the is not going to be the robotics of the later 21st century I don't know like if later 21st century I don't know like if later 21st century I don't know like if you call yourself a roboticist it'll be you call yourself a roboticist it'll be you call yourself a roboticist it'll be something very different because I I something very different because I I something very different because I I think more and more you'd be like a

think more and more you'd be like a think more and more you'd be like a maybe like a control engineer or maybe like a control engineer or maybe like a control engineer or something controls engineer like uh you something controls engineer like uh you something controls engineer like uh you separate because ultimately all the separate because ultimately all the separate because ultimately all the unsolved all the big problems of unsolved all the big problems of unsolved all the big problems of Robotics will be in the social aspect in Robotics will be in the social aspect in Robotics will be in the social aspect in the interacting with humans aspect in the interacting with humans aspect in the interacting with humans aspect in the the the uh perception interpreting the world uh perception interpreting the world uh perception interpreting the world aspect in the brain part not the not the aspect in the brain part not the not the aspect in the brain part not the not the not the basic control level part not the basic control level part not the basic control level part you call it basic it's actually you call it basic it's actually you call it basic it's actually right like it's very very complicated right like it's very very complicated right like it's very very complicated and that's why but like I think you're and that's why but like I think you're and that's why but like I think you're so right and and and what a time to be so right and and and what a time to be so right and and and what a time to be alive because alive because alive because for me I just for me I just for me I just we've had robots for so long and they've we've had robots for so long and they've we've had robots for so long and they've just been behind the scenes just been behind the scenes just been behind the scenes and now finally robots are getting and now finally robots are getting and now finally robots are getting deployed into the world they're coming deployed into the world they're coming deployed into the world they're coming out of the closet yeah and and we're out of the closet yeah and and we're out of the closet yeah and and we're seeing all these mistakes that companies seeing all these mistakes that companies seeing all these mistakes that companies are making because they focus so much on are making because they focus so much on are making because they focus so much on the engineering and getting that right the engineering and getting that right the engineering and getting that right and getting the robot to be even be able and getting the robot to be even be able and getting the robot to be even be able to function in a space that it shares to function in a space that it shares to function in a space that it shares with a human see what I feel like people with a human see what I feel like people with a human see what I feel like people don't understand don't understand don't understand is to solve the perception and the is to solve the perception and the is to solve the perception and the control problem control problem control problem you shouldn't try to just solve the you shouldn't try to just solve the you shouldn't try to just solve the perception control problem you should perception control problem you should perception control problem you should teach the robot how to say oh shit I'm teach the robot how to say oh shit I'm teach the robot how to say oh shit I'm sorry I fucked up yeah or ask for help sorry I fucked up yeah or ask for help sorry I fucked up yeah or ask for help oh for ask for help or be able to oh for ask for help or be able to oh for ask for help or be able to communicate the uncertainty yeah exactly communicate the uncertainty yeah exactly communicate the uncertainty yeah exactly all of those things because you can't all of those things because you can't all of those things because you can't solve the perception control we humans solve the perception control we humans solve the perception control we humans haven't solved it we were really damn

haven't solved it we were really damn haven't solved it we were really damn good at it good at it good at it uh but the the magic is in the the uh but the the magic is in the the uh but the the magic is in the the self-deprecating humor and the self-deprecating humor and the self-deprecating humor and the self-awareness about where our flaws are self-awareness about where our flaws are self-awareness about where our flaws are all that kind of stuff all that kind of stuff all that kind of stuff yeah and there's a whole body of yeah and there's a whole body of yeah and there's a whole body of research in human robot interaction research in human robot interaction research in human robot interaction showing like ways to do this but a lot showing like ways to do this but a lot showing like ways to do this but a lot of these companies haven't they don't do of these companies haven't they don't do of these companies haven't they don't do HRI they like the have you seen the HRI they like the have you seen the HRI they like the have you seen the grocery store robot in the Stop and Shop grocery store robot in the Stop and Shop grocery store robot in the Stop and Shop yes yeah the Marty it looks like a giant yes yeah the Marty it looks like a giant yes yeah the Marty it looks like a giant penis it's like six feet tall it roams penis it's like six feet tall it roams penis it's like six feet tall it roams the aisles I will never see marketing the aisles I will never see marketing the aisles I will never see marketing the same way again thank you you're the same way again thank you you're the same way again thank you you're welcome welcome welcome but like but like but like they they these poor people were so hard they they these poor people were so hard they they these poor people were so hard on getting a functional robot together on getting a functional robot together on getting a functional robot together and then people hate Marty because they and then people hate Marty because they and then people hate Marty because they didn't didn't didn't at all consider how people would react at all consider how people would react at all consider how people would react to Marty in their space does everybody I to Marty in their space does everybody I to Marty in their space does everybody I mean you talk about this do do people mean you talk about this do do people mean you talk about this do do people mostly hate Marty because I I like I mostly hate Marty because I I like I mostly hate Marty because I I like I like Mario yeah and actually like there's a there's yeah and actually like there's a there's a parallel between the two I believe a parallel between the two I believe a parallel between the two I believe there is so we were actually going to do there is so we were actually going to do there is so we were actually going to do a study on this right before the a study on this right before the a study on this right before the pandemic hit and then we canceled it pandemic hit and then we canceled it pandemic hit and then we canceled it because we didn't want to go to the because we didn't want to go to the because we didn't want to go to the grocery store and neither did anyone grocery store and neither did anyone grocery store and neither did anyone else else else um but our Theory so this was with a um but our Theory so this was with a um but our Theory so this was with a student at MIT Daniella de Paola she student at MIT Daniella de Paola she student at MIT Daniella de Paola she noticed that everyone on Facebook in her noticed that everyone on Facebook in her noticed that everyone on Facebook in her circles was complaining about Marty circles was complaining about Marty circles was complaining about Marty they're like what is this creepy robot they're like what is this creepy robot they're like what is this creepy robot is watching me it's always in the way is watching me it's always in the way is watching me it's always in the way and she did this like quick and dirty and she did this like quick and dirty and she did this like quick and dirty sentiment analysis on Twitter where she sentiment analysis on Twitter where she sentiment analysis on Twitter where she was looking at positive and negative

was looking at positive and negative was looking at positive and negative mentions of the robot and she found that mentions of the robot and she found that mentions of the robot and she found that the biggest Spike of negative mentions the biggest Spike of negative mentions the biggest Spike of negative mentions happened happened happened um when Stop and Shop threw a birthday um when Stop and Shop threw a birthday um when Stop and Shop threw a birthday party for the Marty robots like with party for the Marty robots like with party for the Marty robots like with free cake and balloons like who free cake and balloons like who free cake and balloons like who complains about free cake well people complains about free cake well people complains about free cake well people who hate Marty apparently so who hate Marty apparently so who hate Marty apparently so and so we were like that's interesting and so we were like that's interesting and so we were like that's interesting and then we did this like online poll we and then we did this like online poll we and then we did this like online poll we used Mechanical Turk and we tried to used Mechanical Turk and we tried to used Mechanical Turk and we tried to get at what people don't like about get at what people don't like about get at what people don't like about Marty and a lot of it wasn't oh Marty's Marty and a lot of it wasn't oh Marty's Marty and a lot of it wasn't oh Marty's taking jobs it was Marty is the taking jobs it was Marty is the taking jobs it was Marty is the surveillance robot which is not it looks surveillance robot which is not it looks surveillance robot which is not it looks for spills on the floor it doesn't for spills on the floor it doesn't for spills on the floor it doesn't actually like look at any people actually like look at any people actually like look at any people um it's it's watching as creepy as um it's it's watching as creepy as um it's it's watching as creepy as getting in the way those are the things getting in the way those are the things getting in the way those are the things that people complained about and so our that people complained about and so our that people complained about and so our hypothesis became hypothesis became hypothesis became is Marty a real life clippy because I is Marty a real life clippy because I is Marty a real life clippy because I know Lex you love clippy but many people know Lex you love clippy but many people know Lex you love clippy but many people hated clippy well there's a complex hated clippy well there's a complex hated clippy well there's a complex thing there it could be like marriage a thing there it could be like marriage a thing there it could be like marriage a lot of people seem to like to complain lot of people seem to like to complain lot of people seem to like to complain about marriage but they secretly love it about marriage but they secretly love it about marriage but they secretly love it so it could be the relationship you so it could be the relationship you so it could be the relationship you might have with uh with Marty is like might have with uh with Marty is like might have with uh with Marty is like oh there he goes again doing his stupid oh there he goes again doing his stupid oh there he goes again doing his stupid surveillance thing but you can grow to surveillance thing but you can grow to surveillance thing but you can grow to love the um love the um love the um I mean bitching about the thing that I mean bitching about the thing that I mean bitching about the thing that kind of releases a kind of tension and kind of releases a kind of tension and kind of releases a kind of tension and there's I mean some people a lot of there's I mean some people a lot of there's I mean some people a lot of people show Love by sort of uh people show Love by sort of uh people show Love by sort of uh busting each other's jobs you know like

busting each other's jobs you know like busting each other's jobs you know like making fun of each other and then if I making fun of each other and then if I making fun of each other and then if I think I think people would really love think I think people would really love think I think people would really love it if Marty talked back it if Marty talked back it if Marty talked back and and like well these are so many and and like well these are so many and and like well these are so many possible options for humor there one you possible options for humor there one you possible options for humor there one you can lean in you can be like yes I'm an can lean in you can be like yes I'm an can lean in you can be like yes I'm an agent of the CIA monitoring your every agent of the CIA monitoring your every agent of the CIA monitoring your every move like mocking people that are move like mocking people that are move like mocking people that are concerned you know saying like yes I I'm concerned you know saying like yes I I'm concerned you know saying like yes I I'm watching you because you're so important watching you because you're so important watching you because you're so important with your shopping patterns I'm with your shopping patterns I'm with your shopping patterns I'm collecting all this data collecting all this data collecting all this data um or or just you know any kind of um or or just you know any kind of um or or just you know any kind of making fun of people I don't know but I making fun of people I don't know but I making fun of people I don't know but I think you hit on what exactly it is think you hit on what exactly it is think you hit on what exactly it is because when it comes to robots or because when it comes to robots or because when it comes to robots or artificial agents artificial agents artificial agents I think people hate them more than they I think people hate them more than they I think people hate them more than they would some other machine or device or would some other machine or device or would some other machine or device or object object object and it might and it might be that thing and it might and it might be that thing and it might and it might be that thing it might be combined with love or like it might be combined with love or like it might be combined with love or like whatever it is it's a more extreme whatever it is it's a more extreme whatever it is it's a more extreme response because they view these things response because they view these things response because they view these things as social Asians and not objects and as social Asians and not objects and as social Asians and not objects and that was that was that was um so Clifford nass was a big human um so Clifford nass was a big human um so Clifford nass was a big human computer interaction person and he his computer interaction person and he his computer interaction person and he his theory about Clippy was that because theory about Clippy was that because theory about Clippy was that because people viewed clippy as a social agent people viewed clippy as a social agent people viewed clippy as a social agent when clippy was annoying and would like when clippy was annoying and would like when clippy was annoying and would like bother them and interrupt them and like bother them and interrupt them and like bother them and interrupt them and like not remember what they told him that's not remember what they told him that's not remember what they told him that's when people got upset because it wasn't when people got upset because it wasn't when people got upset because it wasn't fulfilling their social expectations and fulfilling their social expectations and fulfilling their social expectations and so they complained about Clippy more so they complained about Clippy more so they complained about Clippy more than they would have if it had been a than they would have if it had been a than they would have if it had been a diff like not an not a you know virtual diff like not an not a you know virtual diff like not an not a you know virtual character so is complaining to you a

character so is complaining to you a character so is complaining to you a sign that we're on the wrong path with a sign that we're on the wrong path with a sign that we're on the wrong path with a particular robot or is it possible like particular robot or is it possible like particular robot or is it possible like again like marriage like again like marriage like again like marriage like family that there still is a path family that there still is a path family that there still is a path towards that direction where we can find towards that direction where we can find towards that direction where we can find deep meaningful relationship deep meaningful relationship deep meaningful relationship I think we absolutely can I think we absolutely can I think we absolutely can meaningful relationships with more meaningful relationships with more meaningful relationships with more robots and well maybe with Marty I mean robots and well maybe with Marty I mean robots and well maybe with Marty I mean I just would I would have designed Marty I just would I would have designed Marty I just would I would have designed Marty a little differently but oh isn't there a little differently but oh isn't there a little differently but oh isn't there a charm to the clumsiness the slowness a charm to the clumsiness the slowness a charm to the clumsiness the slowness there is if you're not trying to get there is if you're not trying to get there is if you're not trying to get through the shopping cart and screaming through the shopping cart and screaming through the shopping cart and screaming child you know there's I think child you know there's I think child you know there's I think I think you could make it Charming I I think you could make it Charming I I think you could make it Charming I think there are lots of design tricks think there are lots of design tricks think there are lots of design tricks that they could have used and one of the that they could have used and one of the that they could have used and one of the things they did I think without thinking things they did I think without thinking things they did I think without thinking about it at all is they slapped too big about it at all is they slapped too big about it at all is they slapped too big googly eyes on Marty oh yeah and I I googly eyes on Marty oh yeah and I I googly eyes on Marty oh yeah and I I wonder if that contributed maybe to wonder if that contributed maybe to wonder if that contributed maybe to people feeling watched people feeling watched people feeling watched um um um because because it's looking at them because because it's looking at them because because it's looking at them and and and so like is there a way to design the so like is there a way to design the so like is there a way to design the robot to do the function that it's doing robot to do the function that it's doing robot to do the function that it's doing in a way that does that people are in a way that does that people are in a way that does that people are actually attracted to rather than actually attracted to rather than actually attracted to rather than annoyed by and there are many ways to do annoyed by and there are many ways to do annoyed by and there are many ways to do that but companies aren't thinking about that but companies aren't thinking about that but companies aren't thinking about it now they're realizing that they it now they're realizing that they it now they're realizing that they should have thought about it yeah I should have thought about it yeah I should have thought about it yeah I wonder if there's a way to wonder if there's a way to wonder if there's a way to if it would help to make Marty seem like if it would help to make Marty seem like if it would help to make Marty seem like an entity of its own versus uh an entity of its own versus uh an entity of its own versus uh the arm of a large corporation the arm of a large corporation the arm of a large corporation so there's some sense where

so there's some sense where so there's some sense where this is just the camera that's this is just the camera that's this is just the camera that's monitoring people versus this is an monitoring people versus this is an monitoring people versus this is an entity that's a standalone entity it has entity that's a standalone entity it has entity that's a standalone entity it has its own task its own task its own task and it has its own personality the more and it has its own personality the more and it has its own personality the more personality you give it the more it personality you give it the more it personality you give it the more it feels like feels like feels like it's not sharing data with anybody else it's not sharing data with anybody else it's not sharing data with anybody else like like like when we see other human beings our basic when we see other human beings our basic when we see other human beings our basic assumption is whatever I say to this assumption is whatever I say to this assumption is whatever I say to this human being it's not like being human being it's not like being human being it's not like being immediately sent to the CIA yeah what I immediately sent to the CIA yeah what I immediately sent to the CIA yeah what I say to you no one's gonna hear that say to you no one's gonna hear that say to you no one's gonna hear that right yeah that's true that's true well right yeah that's true that's true well right yeah that's true that's true well you forget it I mean you do forget it I you forget it I mean you do forget it I you forget it I mean you do forget it I mean I don't know if that even with mean I don't know if that even with mean I don't know if that even with microphones here you forget that that's microphones here you forget that that's microphones here you forget that that's happening but there for some reason I happening but there for some reason I happening but there for some reason I think probably with Marty think probably with Marty think probably with Marty um I think when it's done really crudely um I think when it's done really crudely um I think when it's done really crudely and crappily you start to realize oh and crappily you start to realize oh and crappily you start to realize oh this is like PR people trying to make a this is like PR people trying to make a this is like PR people trying to make a friendly version of a surveillance friendly version of a surveillance friendly version of a surveillance machine but machine but machine but um I mean that reminds me of the slight um I mean that reminds me of the slight um I mean that reminds me of the slight clumsiness or significant clumsiness on clumsiness or significant clumsiness on clumsiness or significant clumsiness on the initial releases of the avatars for the initial releases of the avatars for the initial releases of the avatars for the metaverse I don't know what what do the metaverse I don't know what what do the metaverse I don't know what what do you what are your actually thoughts you what are your actually thoughts you what are your actually thoughts about that the the about that the the about that the the way way way uh the avatars the way like Mark uh the avatars the way like Mark uh the avatars the way like Mark Zuckerberg looks in that world you know Zuckerberg looks in that world you know Zuckerberg looks in that world you know the the the the meta verse the virtual the the the the meta verse the virtual the the the the meta verse the virtual reality world where you can have like reality world where you can have like reality world where you can have like virtual meetings and stuff like that virtual meetings and stuff like that virtual meetings and stuff like that like how do we get that right do you like how do we get that right do you like how do we get that right do you have thoughts about that because that's have thoughts about that because that's have thoughts about that because that's the kind of uh

the kind of uh the kind of uh it's a it's a it's a is it feels like a similar problem to is it feels like a similar problem to is it feels like a similar problem to social robotics which is how you design social robotics which is how you design social robotics which is how you design a digital virtual world that is a digital virtual world that is a digital virtual world that is compelling compelling compelling when you connect others there in the when you connect others there in the when you connect others there in the same way that physical same way that physical same way that physical connection is right I haven't looked connection is right I haven't looked connection is right I haven't looked into I mean I've seen people joking into I mean I've seen people joking into I mean I've seen people joking about it on Twitter and like posting about it on Twitter and like posting about it on Twitter and like posting like that whatever yeah but I mean have like that whatever yeah but I mean have like that whatever yeah but I mean have you seen it because it there's something you seen it because it there's something you seen it because it there's something you can't quite put into words uh that you can't quite put into words uh that you can't quite put into words uh that um um um doesn't feel genuine yeah about the way doesn't feel genuine yeah about the way doesn't feel genuine yeah about the way it looks and so the question is if you it looks and so the question is if you it looks and so the question is if you and I were to meet virtually and I were to meet virtually and I were to meet virtually what should the avatars look like what should the avatars look like what should the avatars look like for us to have a similar kind of for us to have a similar kind of for us to have a similar kind of connection should it be a really connection should it be a really connection should it be a really simplified should it be a little bit simplified should it be a little bit simplified should it be a little bit more realistic should it be cartoonish more realistic should it be cartoonish more realistic should it be cartoonish should it be more should it be more should it be more um better capturing of Expressions uh in better capturing of Expressions uh in interesting complex ways versus like interesting complex ways versus like interesting complex ways versus like cartoonish oversimplified ways but cartoonish oversimplified ways but cartoonish oversimplified ways but haven't video games figured this out I'm haven't video games figured this out I'm haven't video games figured this out I'm not a gamer so I don't have any examples not a gamer so I don't have any examples not a gamer so I don't have any examples but I feel like there's this whole world but I feel like there's this whole world but I feel like there's this whole world in video games where they've thought in video games where they've thought in video games where they've thought about all of this and depending on the about all of this and depending on the about all of this and depending on the game they have different like avatars game they have different like avatars game they have different like avatars and a lot of the games are about and a lot of the games are about and a lot of the games are about connecting with others I just the thing connecting with others I just the thing connecting with others I just the thing that I don't know is and again I haven't that I don't know is and again I haven't that I don't know is and again I haven't looked into this at all looked into this at all looked into this at all um I've been like shockingly not very um I've been like shockingly not very um I've been like shockingly not very interested in the metaverse but

interested in the metaverse but interested in the metaverse but they must have poured so much investment they must have poured so much investment they must have poured so much investment into this into this into this um meta and um meta and um meta and like why why is it so why are people why like why why is it so why are people why like why why is it so why are people why is it so bad like well there's gonna be is it so bad like well there's gonna be is it so bad like well there's gonna be a reason there's got to be some thinking a reason there's got to be some thinking a reason there's got to be some thinking behind it right behind it right behind it right well I talked to Carmack about this uh well I talked to Carmack about this uh well I talked to Carmack about this uh John Carmack who's a part-time John Carmack who's a part-time John Carmack who's a part-time um Oculus um Oculus um Oculus CTO CTO CTO I think uh there's several things to say I think uh there's several things to say I think uh there's several things to say one is as you probably know that I mean one is as you probably know that I mean one is as you probably know that I mean there's bureaucracy there's large there's bureaucracy there's large there's bureaucracy there's large corporations and they often large corporations and they often large corporations and they often large corporations have a way of corporations have a way of corporations have a way of killing the ND kind of artistic killing the ND kind of artistic killing the ND kind of artistic flame that's required to create flame that's required to create flame that's required to create something really compelling somehow they something really compelling somehow they something really compelling somehow they make everything boring because they they make everything boring because they they make everything boring because they they run through this whole process through run through this whole process through run through this whole process through the PR department through all that kind the PR department through all that kind the PR department through all that kind of stuff and it somehow becomes generic of stuff and it somehow becomes generic of stuff and it somehow becomes generic to that process because you strip out to that process because you strip out to that process because you strip out anything interesting because it could be anything interesting because it could be anything interesting because it could be controversial is that or yeah right controversial is that or yeah right controversial is that or yeah right exactly like um exactly like um exactly like um like what I mean we're living through like what I mean we're living through like what I mean we're living through this now like with the this now like with the this now like with the with a lot of people with cancellations with a lot of people with cancellations with a lot of people with cancellations all those kinds of stuff people are all those kinds of stuff people are all those kinds of stuff people are nervous and nervousness results in like nervous and nervousness results in like nervous and nervousness results in like the like usual the assholes are ruining the like usual the assholes are ruining the like usual the assholes are ruining everything but you know the magic of everything but you know the magic of everything but you know the magic of human connection is taking risks of human connection is taking risks of human connection is taking risks of making a risky joke of of of like with making a risky joke of of of like with making a risky joke of of of like with people you like who are not assholes people you like who are not assholes people you like who are not assholes good people like some of the fun some of

good people like some of the fun some of good people like some of the fun some of the fun in the metaverse OR in video the fun in the metaverse OR in video the fun in the metaverse OR in video games is you know being edgier being games is you know being edgier being games is you know being edgier being interesting revealing your personality interesting revealing your personality interesting revealing your personality in interesting ways in interesting ways in interesting ways um in the sexual tension or in uh um in the sexual tension or in uh um in the sexual tension or in uh they're definitely paranoid about that they're definitely paranoid about that they're definitely paranoid about that oh yeah like in metaverse the oh yeah like in metaverse the oh yeah like in metaverse the possibility of sexual assault and sexual possibility of sexual assault and sexual possibility of sexual assault and sexual harassment and all that kind of stuff harassment and all that kind of stuff harassment and all that kind of stuff it's it's obviously very high but it's it's obviously very high but it's it's obviously very high but they're uh so you should be paranoid to they're uh so you should be paranoid to they're uh so you should be paranoid to some degree but not too much because some degree but not too much because some degree but not too much because then you remove completely person the then you remove completely person the then you remove completely person the personality of the whole thing then personality of the whole thing then personality of the whole thing then everybody's just like a vanilla bot but everybody's just like a vanilla bot but everybody's just like a vanilla bot but uh like you have to have uh like you have to have uh like you have to have ability ability ability um to be a little bit political to be a um to be a little bit political to be a um to be a little bit political to be a little bit edgy all that kind of stuff little bit edgy all that kind of stuff little bit edgy all that kind of stuff and large companies tend to suffocate and large companies tend to suffocate and large companies tend to suffocate that so I but in general if you get all that so I but in general if you get all that so I but in general if you get all that just the ability to come up that just the ability to come up that just the ability to come up really cool beautiful ideas really cool beautiful ideas really cool beautiful ideas if you look at uh I think Grimes tweeted if you look at uh I think Grimes tweeted if you look at uh I think Grimes tweeted about this she's very critical about the about this she's very critical about the about this she's very critical about the metaverse is that metaverse is that metaverse is that um um um you know the uh independent uh game you know the uh independent uh game you know the uh independent uh game designers have solved this problem of designers have solved this problem of designers have solved this problem of how to create something beautiful and how to create something beautiful and how to create something beautiful and interesting and compelling they they do interesting and compelling they they do interesting and compelling they they do a really good job so you have to let a really good job so you have to let a really good job so you have to let those kinds of Minds the small groups of those kinds of Minds the small groups of those kinds of Minds the small groups of people design things and let them run people design things and let them run people design things and let them run with it let them run wild and do edgy with it let them run wild and do edgy with it let them run wild and do edgy stuff yeah but otherwise you because you stuff yeah but otherwise you because you stuff yeah but otherwise you because you get this kind of

get this kind of get this kind of you get a clippy type of situation right you get a clippy type of situation right you get a clippy type of situation right which is like a very generic looking which is like a very generic looking which is like a very generic looking thing thing thing um but even clippy has some like that's um but even clippy has some like that's um but even clippy has some like that's kind of wild that you would take a a kind of wild that you would take a a kind of wild that you would take a a paper clip and put eyes on it and paper clip and put eyes on it and paper clip and put eyes on it and suddenly people are like oh you're suddenly people are like oh you're suddenly people are like oh you're annoying but you're definitely a social annoying but you're definitely a social annoying but you're definitely a social agent and I just feel like that wouldn't agent and I just feel like that wouldn't agent and I just feel like that wouldn't even that clippy thing wouldn't even even that clippy thing wouldn't even even that clippy thing wouldn't even survive Microsoft survive Microsoft survive Microsoft or Facebook of today matter of today or Facebook of today matter of today or Facebook of today matter of today because it would be like what there'll because it would be like what there'll because it would be like what there'll be these meetings about why is it for be these meetings about why is it for be these meetings about why is it for people people people like why don't we it's not sufficiently like why don't we it's not sufficiently like why don't we it's not sufficiently friendly let's make it uh you know and friendly let's make it uh you know and friendly let's make it uh you know and then all of a sudden the artist that then all of a sudden the artist that then all of a sudden the artist that with whom it originated is killed and with whom it originated is killed and with whom it originated is killed and it's all PR marketing people and all it's all PR marketing people and all it's all PR marketing people and all that kind of stuff no they do important that kind of stuff no they do important that kind of stuff no they do important work to some degree but they kill the work to some degree but they kill the work to some degree but they kill the creativity I think the killing of the creativity I think the killing of the creativity I think the killing of the creativity is in the whole like Okay so creativity is in the whole like Okay so creativity is in the whole like Okay so some social robotics is like obviously some social robotics is like obviously some social robotics is like obviously if you create agents that okay so take if you create agents that okay so take if you create agents that okay so take for an example you'd create a robot that for an example you'd create a robot that for an example you'd create a robot that looks like a humanoid and it's you know looks like a humanoid and it's you know looks like a humanoid and it's you know Sophia or whatever now suddenly you do Sophia or whatever now suddenly you do Sophia or whatever now suddenly you do have all of these issues where have all of these issues where have all of these issues where are you reinforcing an unrealistic are you reinforcing an unrealistic are you reinforcing an unrealistic Beauty standard are you objectifying Beauty standard are you objectifying Beauty standard are you objectifying women uh why is the robot white so you women uh why is the robot white so you women uh why is the robot white so you have but the thing is I think that with have but the thing is I think that with have but the thing is I think that with creativity creativity creativity you can find a solution that's even

you can find a solution that's even you can find a solution that's even better where you're not even harming better where you're not even harming better where you're not even harming anyone and you're creating a robot that anyone and you're creating a robot that anyone and you're creating a robot that looks like not not humanoid but like looks like not not humanoid but like looks like not not humanoid but like something that people relate to even something that people relate to even something that people relate to even more and now you don't even have any of more and now you don't even have any of more and now you don't even have any of these bias issues that you're creating these bias issues that you're creating these bias issues that you're creating and so how do we create that within and so how do we create that within and so how do we create that within companies because I don't think it's companies because I don't think it's companies because I don't think it's really about really about really about like I because I you know maybe we like I because I you know maybe we like I because I you know maybe we disagree on that I don't think that disagree on that I don't think that disagree on that I don't think that edginess or humor or interesting things edginess or humor or interesting things edginess or humor or interesting things need to be things that harm or hurt need to be things that harm or hurt need to be things that harm or hurt people or that people are against there people or that people are against there people or that people are against there are ways to find things that everyone is are ways to find things that everyone is are ways to find things that everyone is fine with fine with fine with why aren't we doing that the problem is why aren't we doing that the problem is why aren't we doing that the problem is there's departments that look for harm there's departments that look for harm there's departments that look for harm and things yeah and so they will find and things yeah and so they will find and things yeah and so they will find harm in things that have no harm okay harm in things that have no harm okay harm in things that have no harm okay that's the big problem because their that's the big problem because their that's the big problem because their whole job is to find harm in things so whole job is to find harm in things so whole job is to find harm in things so what you said is completely correct what you said is completely correct what you said is completely correct which is edginess should not hurt which is edginess should not hurt which is edginess should not hurt doesn't necessarily doesn't need to be a doesn't necessarily doesn't need to be a doesn't necessarily doesn't need to be a thing that hurts people it obviously thing that hurts people it obviously thing that hurts people it obviously great humor great uh personality doesn't great humor great uh personality doesn't great humor great uh personality doesn't have to uh like clippy have to uh like clippy have to uh like clippy but yeah I mean it but it's tricky to but yeah I mean it but it's tricky to but yeah I mean it but it's tricky to get right and I'm not exactly sure I get right and I'm not exactly sure I get right and I'm not exactly sure I don't know I don't know why a large don't know I don't know why a large don't know I don't know why a large corporation with a lot of funding can't corporation with a lot of funding can't corporation with a lot of funding can't get this right I do think you're right get this right I do think you're right get this right I do think you're right that there's a lot of aversion to risk that there's a lot of aversion to risk that there's a lot of aversion to risk and so if you get lawyers involved or and so if you get lawyers involved or and so if you get lawyers involved or people whose job it is like you say to people whose job it is like you say to people whose job it is like you say to mitigate risk they're just going to say mitigate risk they're just going to say mitigate risk they're just going to say no to most things that could even be in

no to most things that could even be in no to most things that could even be in some way yeah some way yeah some way yeah yeah you get the problem in all yeah you get the problem in all yeah you get the problem in all organizations so I think that you're organizations so I think that you're organizations so I think that you're right that that is a problem I think right that that is a problem I think right that that is a problem I think what's the way to solve that in large what's the way to solve that in large what's the way to solve that in large organizations is to have Steve Jobs organizations is to have Steve Jobs organizations is to have Steve Jobs types of characters unfortunately you do types of characters unfortunately you do types of characters unfortunately you do need to have I think um from a designer or maybe like a um from a designer or maybe like a Johnny Ive Johnny Ive Johnny Ive that is almost like a dictator yeah you that is almost like a dictator yeah you that is almost like a dictator yeah you want a benevolent dictator yeah who want a benevolent dictator yeah who want a benevolent dictator yeah who rolls in and says like the cuts through rolls in and says like the cuts through rolls in and says like the cuts through the lawyers the PR but has a benevolent the lawyers the PR but has a benevolent the lawyers the PR but has a benevolent aspect like yeah this is a good heart aspect like yeah this is a good heart aspect like yeah this is a good heart and make sure like I think all great and make sure like I think all great and make sure like I think all great artists and designers create stuff that artists and designers create stuff that artists and designers create stuff that doesn't hurt people like if you have a doesn't hurt people like if you have a doesn't hurt people like if you have a good heart you're going to create good heart you're going to create good heart you're going to create something that's going to actually something that's going to actually something that's going to actually um make a lot of people feel good that's um make a lot of people feel good that's um make a lot of people feel good that's what like people like Johnny Ive what what like people like Johnny Ive what what like people like Johnny Ive what they love doing is creating a thing that they love doing is creating a thing that they love doing is creating a thing that brings a lot of love to the world they brings a lot of love to the world they brings a lot of love to the world they imagine like millions of people using imagine like millions of people using imagine like millions of people using the thing and it instills them with with the thing and it instills them with with the thing and it instills them with with joy that's that you could say that by joy that's that you could say that by joy that's that you could say that by social robotics you could say that about social robotics you could say that about social robotics you could say that about the metaverse it shouldn't be done by the metaverse it shouldn't be done by the metaverse it shouldn't be done by the pr people should be done by this the pr people should be done by this the pr people should be done by this time I agree PR people ruin everything time I agree PR people ruin everything time I agree PR people ruin everything yeah all the fun uh in the uh in the yeah all the fun uh in the uh in the yeah all the fun uh in the uh in the book you have a picture this I just have book you have a picture this I just have book you have a picture this I just have a lot of ridiculous questions you have a a lot of ridiculous questions you have a a lot of ridiculous questions you have a picture of two Hospital delivery robots picture of two Hospital delivery robots picture of two Hospital delivery robots with a caption that reads by the way see with a caption that reads by the way see with a caption that reads by the way see your book I appreciate that it keeps the your book I appreciate that it keeps the your book I appreciate that it keeps the humor in you didn't run it by the PR

humor in you didn't run it by the PR humor in you didn't run it by the PR department no no one edited the book got department no no one edited the book got department no no one edited the book got rushed through rushed through rushed through uh the thing the caption reads two uh the thing the caption reads two uh the thing the caption reads two hospitals delivery robots whose sexy hospitals delivery robots whose sexy hospitals delivery robots whose sexy nurse names Roxy and Lola made me roll nurse names Roxy and Lola made me roll nurse names Roxy and Lola made me roll my eyes so hard they almost fell out my eyes so hard they almost fell out my eyes so hard they almost fell out um what aspect of it made you roll your um what aspect of it made you roll your um what aspect of it made you roll your eyes is it the naming it was the naming eyes is it the naming it was the naming eyes is it the naming it was the naming the form factor is fine it's like a the form factor is fine it's like a the form factor is fine it's like a little box on Wheels the fact that they little box on Wheels the fact that they little box on Wheels the fact that they named them also great that'll let people named them also great that'll let people named them also great that'll let people enjoy interacting with them we know that enjoy interacting with them we know that enjoy interacting with them we know that even just giving a robot a name people even just giving a robot a name people even just giving a robot a name people will uh it facilitates technology will uh it facilitates technology will uh it facilitates technology adoption people will be like oh you know adoption people will be like oh you know adoption people will be like oh you know Betsy made a mistake let's help her out Betsy made a mistake let's help her out Betsy made a mistake let's help her out instead of this stupid robot doesn't instead of this stupid robot doesn't instead of this stupid robot doesn't work but why lowly and Lola and Roxy work but why lowly and Lola and Roxy work but why lowly and Lola and Roxy like those are too too sexy I mean like those are too too sexy I mean like those are too too sexy I mean there's research showing that there's research showing that there's research showing that a lot of robots are named according to a lot of robots are named according to a lot of robots are named according to gender biases about the function that gender biases about the function that gender biases about the function that they're fulfilling so they're fulfilling so they're fulfilling so you know robots that are helpful in you know robots that are helpful in you know robots that are helpful in assistance and are like nurses are assistance and are like nurses are assistance and are like nurses are usually female gendered robots that are usually female gendered robots that are usually female gendered robots that are you know powerful all wise computers you know powerful all wise computers you know powerful all wise computers like Watson usually have like a booming like Watson usually have like a booming like Watson usually have like a booming male uh coded voice and name so male uh coded voice and name so male uh coded voice and name so like why like that's one of those things like why like that's one of those things like why like that's one of those things right you're opening a can of worms for right you're opening a can of worms for right you're opening a can of worms for no reason for no reason you can avoid no reason for no reason you can avoid no reason for no reason you can avoid this whole camera yeah just give it a this whole camera yeah just give it a this whole camera yeah just give it a different name like why Roxy different name like why Roxy different name like why Roxy it's because people aren't even thinking

it's because people aren't even thinking it's because people aren't even thinking so to some extent I don't I don't like so to some extent I don't I don't like so to some extent I don't I don't like PR departments but getting some feedback PR departments but getting some feedback PR departments but getting some feedback on your work from a diverse set of on your work from a diverse set of on your work from a diverse set of participants listening and taking in participants listening and taking in participants listening and taking in things that help you identify your own things that help you identify your own things that help you identify your own blind spots and then you can always make blind spots and then you can always make blind spots and then you can always make your good leadership choices and good your good leadership choices and good your good leadership choices and good like you can still ignore things that like you can still ignore things that like you can still ignore things that you don't believe are an issue but you don't believe are an issue but you don't believe are an issue but having the openness to take in feedback having the openness to take in feedback having the openness to take in feedback and making sure that you're getting the and making sure that you're getting the and making sure that you're getting the right feedback from the right people I right feedback from the right people I right feedback from the right people I think that's really important so don't think that's really important so don't think that's really important so don't unnecessarily propagate the biases of unnecessarily propagate the biases of unnecessarily propagate the biases of society yeah why in the design society yeah why in the design society yeah why in the design but uh if you're not careful though when but uh if you're not careful though when but uh if you're not careful though when you when you do the research of you when you do the research of you when you do the research of like like like you might if you ran a poll with a lot you might if you ran a poll with a lot you might if you ran a poll with a lot of people of all the possible names of people of all the possible names of people of all the possible names these robots have they might come up these robots have they might come up these robots have they might come up with Roxy and Lola as as as names they with Roxy and Lola as as as names they with Roxy and Lola as as as names they um it would enjoy most like that could um it would enjoy most like that could um it would enjoy most like that could come up as uh as the highest as in you come up as uh as the highest as in you come up as uh as the highest as in you do marketing research and then do marketing research and then do marketing research and then well that's what they did with Alexa well that's what they did with Alexa well that's what they did with Alexa they did marketing research and nobody they did marketing research and nobody they did marketing research and nobody wanted the male voice everyone wanted it wanted the male voice everyone wanted it wanted the male voice everyone wanted it to be female what do you what do you to be female what do you what do you to be female what do you what do you think about that like what think about that like what think about that like what I mean if I if I were to say I mean if I if I were to say I mean if I if I were to say I think the role of a great designer I think the role of a great designer I think the role of a great designer again to go back to Johnny Ive is to again to go back to Johnny Ive is to again to go back to Johnny Ive is to throw out the marketing research throw out the marketing research throw out the marketing research like take it in do it learn from it but

like take it in do it learn from it but like take it in do it learn from it but like like like if everyone wants Alexa to be a female if everyone wants Alexa to be a female if everyone wants Alexa to be a female voice voice voice the role of the designers to think the role of the designers to think the role of the designers to think deeply about the future deeply about the future deeply about the future of social agents in the home and think of social agents in the home and think of social agents in the home and think like what does that future look like and like what does that future look like and like what does that future look like and try to reverse engineer that future so try to reverse engineer that future so try to reverse engineer that future so like in some sense there's this weird like in some sense there's this weird like in some sense there's this weird tension like you want to listen to a lot tension like you want to listen to a lot tension like you want to listen to a lot of people of people of people but at the same time you want to you're but at the same time you want to you're but at the same time you want to you're creating a thing that defines the future creating a thing that defines the future creating a thing that defines the future of the world of the world of the world and the people that you're listening to and the people that you're listening to and the people that you're listening to are part of the past are part of the past are part of the past so like that weird tension yeah I think so like that weird tension yeah I think so like that weird tension yeah I think that's true and I think some companies that's true and I think some companies that's true and I think some companies like apple have historically done very like apple have historically done very like apple have historically done very well at understanding a market and well at understanding a market and well at understanding a market and saying you know what our role is it's saying you know what our role is it's saying you know what our role is it's not to listen to what the current market not to listen to what the current market not to listen to what the current market says it's to actually shape the market says it's to actually shape the market says it's to actually shape the market and shape consumer preferences and and shape consumer preferences and and shape consumer preferences and companies companies have the power to do companies companies have the power to do companies companies have the power to do that they can before we're thinking and that they can before we're thinking and that they can before we're thinking and they can actually shift what the future they can actually shift what the future they can actually shift what the future of technology looks like of technology looks like of technology looks like and I agree with you that I would like and I agree with you that I would like and I agree with you that I would like to see more of that especially when it to see more of that especially when it to see more of that especially when it comes to comes to comes to existing biases that we know existing biases that we know existing biases that we know or or you know that that I think there's or or you know that that I think there's or or you know that that I think there's the low-hanging fruit of companies that the low-hanging fruit of companies that the low-hanging fruit of companies that don't even think about it at all and don't even think about it at all and don't even think about it at all and aren't talking to the right people and aren't talking to the right people and aren't talking to the right people and aren't getting the full information and aren't getting the full information and aren't getting the full information and then there's companies that are just then there's companies that are just then there's companies that are just like doing the safe thing and and giving like doing the safe thing and and giving like doing the safe thing and and giving consumers what they want now but to be consumers what they want now but to be consumers what they want now but to be really forward looking and be really really forward looking and be really really forward looking and be really successful I think you have to make some successful I think you have to make some successful I think you have to make some judgment calls about what the future is

judgment calls about what the future is judgment calls about what the future is going to be but do you think it's still going to be but do you think it's still going to be but do you think it's still useful to gender and to name the robots useful to gender and to name the robots useful to gender and to name the robots yes I mean yes I mean yes I mean gender is the minefields but people I gender is the minefields but people I gender is the minefields but people I it's really hard to get people to not it's really hard to get people to not it's really hard to get people to not gender a robot in some way gender a robot in some way gender a robot in some way so if you don't give it a name or you so if you don't give it a name or you so if you don't give it a name or you give it a like ambiguous voice people give it a like ambiguous voice people give it a like ambiguous voice people will just choose something and maybe will just choose something and maybe will just choose something and maybe that's better than just like that's better than just like that's better than just like uh you know entrenching something that uh you know entrenching something that uh you know entrenching something that you've decided is best you've decided is best you've decided is best but I do think it can be helpful on the but I do think it can be helpful on the but I do think it can be helpful on the like anthropomorphism engagement level like anthropomorphism engagement level like anthropomorphism engagement level to give it attributes that people to give it attributes that people to give it attributes that people identify with yeah I think uh a lot of identify with yeah I think uh a lot of identify with yeah I think uh a lot of roboticists I know they they don't roboticists I know they they don't roboticists I know they they don't gender the robot they don't they even gender the robot they don't they even gender the robot they don't they even try to avoid naming the robot or naming try to avoid naming the robot or naming try to avoid naming the robot or naming it ain't something that is uh can be it ain't something that is uh can be it ain't something that is uh can be used as a name in conversation kind of used as a name in conversation kind of used as a name in conversation kind of thing thing thing and I think that actually and I think that actually and I think that actually that's uh that's uh that's uh irresponsible because irresponsible because irresponsible because people are going to anthropomorphize the people are going to anthropomorphize the people are going to anthropomorphize the thing anyway thing anyway thing anyway so you're just uh removing from yourself so you're just uh removing from yourself so you're just uh removing from yourself the responsibility of how they're the responsibility of how they're the responsibility of how they're they're going to anthropomorphize it they're going to anthropomorphize it they're going to anthropomorphize it that's a good point and so like you want that's a good point and so like you want that's a good point and so like you want to be able to like they're going to do to be able to like they're going to do to be able to like they're going to do it you have to start to think about how it you have to start to think about how it you have to start to think about how they're going to do it even if the robot they're going to do it even if the robot they're going to do it even if the robot is like a Boston Dynamics robot that's is like a Boston Dynamics robot that's is like a Boston Dynamics robot that's not supposed to have any kind of social not supposed to have any kind of social not supposed to have any kind of social component component component they're obviously going to project a

they're obviously going to project a they're obviously going to project a social component to it yeah like that social component to it yeah like that social component to it yeah like that arm arm arm I worked a lot a lot with quadruped now I worked a lot a lot with quadruped now I worked a lot a lot with quadruped now with with the robot dogs you know that with with the robot dogs you know that with with the robot dogs you know that arm people think is the head immediately arm people think is the head immediately arm people think is the head immediately yeah it's supposed to be an arm but they yeah it's supposed to be an arm but they yeah it's supposed to be an arm but they start to think it's a head and you have start to think it's a head and you have start to think it's a head and you have to like acknowledge that you can't I to like acknowledge that you can't I to like acknowledge that you can't I mean uh they do now they do now well mean uh they do now they do now well mean uh they do now they do now well they've deployed the robots and people they've deployed the robots and people they've deployed the robots and people are like oh my God the cops are using a are like oh my God the cops are using a are like oh my God the cops are using a robot dog and so they have this PR robot dog and so they have this PR robot dog and so they have this PR Nightmare and so they're like oh Nightmare and so they're like oh Nightmare and so they're like oh yeah okay maybe we should hire some HRI yeah okay maybe we should hire some HRI yeah okay maybe we should hire some HRI people people people well Boston Dynamics is an interesting well Boston Dynamics is an interesting well Boston Dynamics is an interesting company or any of the others that are company or any of the others that are company or any of the others that are doing similar thing because doing similar thing because doing similar thing because their their main source of money their their main source of money their their main source of money is um in the industrial application so is um in the industrial application so is um in the industrial application so like surveillance to factories and uh like surveillance to factories and uh like surveillance to factories and uh doing dangerous jobs so to them it's doing dangerous jobs so to them it's doing dangerous jobs so to them it's almost good PR almost good PR almost good PR for people to be scared of these things for people to be scared of these things for people to be scared of these things because it's it's for some reason as you because it's it's for some reason as you because it's it's for some reason as you talk about people are naturally for some talk about people are naturally for some talk about people are naturally for some reason scared we could talk about that reason scared we could talk about that reason scared we could talk about that of robots and so it becomes more viral of robots and so it becomes more viral of robots and so it becomes more viral like uh playing with that little fear like uh playing with that little fear like uh playing with that little fear and so it's almost like a good PR and so it's almost like a good PR and so it's almost like a good PR because ultimately they're not trying to because ultimately they're not trying to because ultimately they're not trying to put them in the home and have a good put them in the home and have a good put them in the home and have a good social connection they're trying to put social connection they're trying to put social connection they're trying to put them in factories and so they they have them in factories and so they they have them in factories and so they they have fun with it if you watch Boston Dynamics fun with it if you watch Boston Dynamics fun with it if you watch Boston Dynamics videos yeah they're aware of it oh yeah videos yeah they're aware of it oh yeah videos yeah they're aware of it oh yeah they're I mean the videos for sure that they're I mean the videos for sure that they're I mean the videos for sure that they put out it's almost like an

they put out it's almost like an they put out it's almost like an unspoken unspoken unspoken tongue-in-cheek thing they they're aware tongue-in-cheek thing they they're aware tongue-in-cheek thing they they're aware of how people are going to feel when you of how people are going to feel when you of how people are going to feel when you have a robot that does like a flip now have a robot that does like a flip now have a robot that does like a flip now most of the people are uh just like most of the people are uh just like most of the people are uh just like excited about the control problem of it excited about the control problem of it excited about the control problem of it like how to how to make the whole thing like how to how to make the whole thing like how to how to make the whole thing happen but they're aware when people see happen but they're aware when people see happen but they're aware when people see well I think they became aware I think well I think they became aware I think well I think they became aware I think that in the beginning they were really that in the beginning they were really that in the beginning they were really really focused on just the engineering I really focused on just the engineering I really focused on just the engineering I mean they're at the Forefront of mean they're at the Forefront of mean they're at the Forefront of Robotics like Locomotion and stuff Robotics like Locomotion and stuff Robotics like Locomotion and stuff um um um and then when they started doing the and then when they started doing the and then when they started doing the videos I think that was kind of a labor videos I think that was kind of a labor videos I think that was kind of a labor of love of love of love I know that the former CEO Mark like he I know that the former CEO Mark like he I know that the former CEO Mark like he oversaw a lot of the videos and made a oversaw a lot of the videos and made a oversaw a lot of the videos and made a lot of them himself and like he's even lot of them himself and like he's even lot of them himself and like he's even really really detail-oriented like there really really detail-oriented like there really really detail-oriented like there can't be like some sort of incline that can't be like some sort of incline that can't be like some sort of incline that would give the robot an advantage would give the robot an advantage would give the robot an advantage they're very like he he was very um hell they're very like he he was very um hell they're very like he he was very um hell of Integrity about the authenticity of of Integrity about the authenticity of of Integrity about the authenticity of them uh and but then when they started them uh and but then when they started them uh and but then when they started to go viral I think that's when they to go viral I think that's when they to go viral I think that's when they started to realize oh there's something started to realize oh there's something started to realize oh there's something interesting here that interesting here that interesting here that you know I don't I don't know how much you know I don't I don't know how much you know I don't I don't know how much they took it seriously in the beginning they took it seriously in the beginning they took it seriously in the beginning other than realizing that they could other than realizing that they could other than realizing that they could play Within the videos yeah I know that play Within the videos yeah I know that play Within the videos yeah I know that they take it very seriously now what I they take it very seriously now what I they take it very seriously now what I like about Boston Dynamics like about Boston Dynamics like about Boston Dynamics and similar companies it's still mostly and similar companies it's still mostly and similar companies it's still mostly run by engineers run by engineers run by engineers but you know but you know but you know I've had my criticisms there's a bit I've had my criticisms there's a bit I've had my criticisms there's a bit more PR leaking in but those videos are

more PR leaking in but those videos are more PR leaking in but those videos are made by Engineers because that's what made by Engineers because that's what made by Engineers because that's what they find fun mm-hmm it's like testing they find fun mm-hmm it's like testing they find fun mm-hmm it's like testing the robustness of the system the robustness of the system the robustness of the system I mean they uh I mean they uh I mean they uh they're having a lot of fun there with they're having a lot of fun there with they're having a lot of fun there with the robots totally the robots totally the robots totally have you been have you been to visit have you been have you been to visit have you been have you been to visit yeah yeah yeah yeah it's cool it's one yeah yeah yeah yeah it's cool it's one yeah yeah yeah yeah it's cool it's one of the most important like I I uh of the most important like I I uh of the most important like I I uh I mean because I I have I mean because I I have I mean because I I have um eight uh robot dogs now uh wait you um eight uh robot dogs now uh wait you um eight uh robot dogs now uh wait you have eight robot dogs what are they just have eight robot dogs what are they just have eight robot dogs what are they just walking around your place like yeah I'm walking around your place like yeah I'm walking around your place like yeah I'm working on them uh that's actually one working on them uh that's actually one working on them uh that's actually one of my goals is of my goals is of my goals is to have at any one time always a robot to have at any one time always a robot to have at any one time always a robot moving oh I'm far away that's an moving oh I'm far away that's an moving oh I'm far away that's an ambitious goal ambitious goal ambitious goal well I have like more roombas I know well I have like more roombas I know well I have like more roombas I know what to do with the room their program what to do with the room their program what to do with the room their program so the the programmable roombas nice and so the the programmable roombas nice and so the the programmable roombas nice and um I have a bunch of little like I built um I have a bunch of little like I built um I have a bunch of little like I built the well I'm not finished with the the well I'm not finished with the the well I'm not finished with the butter robot from Rick and Morty I saw a butter robot from Rick and Morty I saw a butter robot from Rick and Morty I saw a bunch of robots everywhere but the thing bunch of robots everywhere but the thing bunch of robots everywhere but the thing is what happens is you're working on one is what happens is you're working on one is what happens is you're working on one robot at a time robot at a time robot at a time and uh that becomes like a little and uh that becomes like a little and uh that becomes like a little project project project it's actually very difficult to have it's actually very difficult to have it's actually very difficult to have just a passively just a passively just a passively functioning robot always moving yeah and functioning robot always moving yeah and functioning robot always moving yeah and that's a that's a that's a dream for me that's a that's a that's a dream for me that's a that's a that's a dream for me because I'd love to create that kind of because I'd love to create that kind of because I'd love to create that kind of a little world so uh the the impressive a little world so uh the the impressive a little world so uh the the impressive thing about Boston Dynamics to me was to thing about Boston Dynamics to me was to thing about Boston Dynamics to me was to see like hundreds of spots see like hundreds of spots see like hundreds of spots and like there's a the most impressive

and like there's a the most impressive and like there's a the most impressive thing that still sticks with me is um thing that still sticks with me is um thing that still sticks with me is um there was a a spot robot there was a a spot robot there was a a spot robot walking down the hall seemingly with no walking down the hall seemingly with no walking down the hall seemingly with no supervision whatsoever and he was supervision whatsoever and he was supervision whatsoever and he was wearing he or she I don't know was wearing he or she I don't know was wearing he or she I don't know was wearing a cowboy hat wearing a cowboy hat wearing a cowboy hat it just it was just walking down the it just it was just walking down the it just it was just walking down the hall and nobody paying attention and hall and nobody paying attention and hall and nobody paying attention and it's just like walking down this long it's just like walking down this long it's just like walking down this long Hall and I'm like looking around this is Hall and I'm like looking around this is Hall and I'm like looking around this is anyone like what's happening here so I'm anyone like what's happening here so I'm anyone like what's happening here so I'm presumably some kind of automation where presumably some kind of automation where presumably some kind of automation where he's doing the map I mean the whole he's doing the map I mean the whole he's doing the map I mean the whole environment is probably really well environment is probably really well environment is probably really well mapped but I it was just mapped but I it was just mapped but I it was just it gave me a picture of a world where a it gave me a picture of a world where a it gave me a picture of a world where a robot is doing his thing wearing a robot is doing his thing wearing a robot is doing his thing wearing a cowboy hat just cowboy hat just cowboy hat just going down the hall like getting some going down the hall like getting some going down the hall like getting some coffee or whatever like I don't know coffee or whatever like I don't know coffee or whatever like I don't know what it's doing what's the mission but what it's doing what's the mission but what it's doing what's the mission but uh I don't know for some reason it uh I don't know for some reason it uh I don't know for some reason it really stuck with me you don't often see really stuck with me you don't often see really stuck with me you don't often see robots that aren't part of a demo or robots that aren't part of a demo or robots that aren't part of a demo or that aren't uh you know like with a that aren't uh you know like with a that aren't uh you know like with a semi-autonomous autonomous vehicle like semi-autonomous autonomous vehicle like semi-autonomous autonomous vehicle like directly doing a task this was just directly doing a task this was just directly doing a task this was just chilling yeah walking around I don't chilling yeah walking around I don't chilling yeah walking around I don't know well yeah you know I mean we're at know well yeah you know I mean we're at know well yeah you know I mean we're at MIT like when I first got to MIT I was MIT like when I first got to MIT I was MIT like when I first got to MIT I was like okay where's all the where's all like okay where's all the where's all like okay where's all the where's all the robots and they were all like broken the robots and they were all like broken the robots and they were all like broken or like not demoing so yeah and and and or like not demoing so yeah and and and or like not demoing so yeah and and and what really excites me is that we're what really excites me is that we're what really excites me is that we're about to have that we're about to have about to have that we're about to have about to have that we're about to have so many moving rope about to well it's so many moving rope about to well it's so many moving rope about to well it's coming it's coming in our lifetime that coming it's coming in our lifetime that coming it's coming in our lifetime that we will just have robots moving around we will just have robots moving around we will just have robots moving around we're already seeing the beginnings of we're already seeing the beginnings of we're already seeing the beginnings of it there's delivery robots in some

it there's delivery robots in some it there's delivery robots in some cities on the sidewalks and I just love cities on the sidewalks and I just love cities on the sidewalks and I just love seeing like the tick tocks of people seeing like the tick tocks of people seeing like the tick tocks of people reacting to that because yeah you see a reacting to that because yeah you see a reacting to that because yeah you see a robot walking on the hall with a cowboy robot walking on the hall with a cowboy robot walking on the hall with a cowboy hat you're like what hat you're like what hat you're like what the what is this this is awesome and the what is this this is awesome and the what is this this is awesome and scary and kind of awesome and people scary and kind of awesome and people scary and kind of awesome and people either love or hate it that's one of the either love or hate it that's one of the either love or hate it that's one of the things that I think companies are things that I think companies are things that I think companies are underestimating that people will either underestimating that people will either underestimating that people will either love a robot or hate a robot and nothing love a robot or hate a robot and nothing love a robot or hate a robot and nothing in between so it's just again an in between so it's just again an in between so it's just again an exciting time to be alive yeah I think exciting time to be alive yeah I think exciting time to be alive yeah I think kids almost universally at least in my kids almost universally at least in my kids almost universally at least in my experience love them experience love them experience love them a lot love legged robots if they're not a lot love legged robots if they're not a lot love legged robots if they're not La my my son hates the room though La my my son hates the room though La my my son hates the room though because ours is loud because ours is loud because ours is loud oh that yeah no the legs the legs oh oh that yeah no the legs the legs oh oh that yeah no the legs the legs oh yeah because your son yeah because your son yeah because your son um um um do they understand Roma to be a robot do they understand Roma to be a robot do they understand Roma to be a robot oh yeah my kids that's that's the first oh yeah my kids that's that's the first oh yeah my kids that's that's the first words they learned they know how to say words they learned they know how to say words they learned they know how to say beep boop beep boop beep boop think the room as a robot does do they think the room as a robot does do they think the room as a robot does do they project intelligence out of the thing project intelligence out of the thing project intelligence out of the thing but we don't really use it around them but we don't really use it around them but we don't really use it around them anymore for the reason that my son is anymore for the reason that my son is anymore for the reason that my son is scared of it scared of it scared of it yeah that's right I think they would yeah that's right I think they would yeah that's right I think they would like even a Roomba like even a Roomba like even a Roomba because it's moving around on its own because it's moving around on its own because it's moving around on its own I think kids and animals view it as a an I think kids and animals view it as a an I think kids and animals view it as a an agent agent agent so what do you think if we just look at so what do you think if we just look at so what do you think if we just look at the state of the art of Robotics what do the state of the art of Robotics what do the state of the art of Robotics what do you think robots are actually good at you think robots are actually good at you think robots are actually good at today today today so if we look at today you mean physical so if we look at today you mean physical so if we look at today you mean physical robots yeah physical robots

robots yeah physical robots robots yeah physical robots well like what are you impressed by well like what are you impressed by well like what are you impressed by so I think a lot of people I mean that's so I think a lot of people I mean that's so I think a lot of people I mean that's what your book is about is have maybe a what your book is about is have maybe a what your book is about is have maybe a not a perfectly calibrated understanding not a perfectly calibrated understanding not a perfectly calibrated understanding of of of where we are in terms of Robotics what's where we are in terms of Robotics what's where we are in terms of Robotics what's difficult the robotics what's easy in difficult the robotics what's easy in difficult the robotics what's easy in robotics yeah we're way behind where robotics yeah we're way behind where robotics yeah we're way behind where people think we are so people think we are so people think we are so what's impressive to me so uh let's see what's impressive to me so uh let's see what's impressive to me so uh let's see oh one one thing that came out recently oh one one thing that came out recently oh one one thing that came out recently was Amazon has this new Warehouse robot was Amazon has this new Warehouse robot was Amazon has this new Warehouse robot and it's the first autonomous Warehouse and it's the first autonomous Warehouse and it's the first autonomous Warehouse robot that can is safe for people to be robot that can is safe for people to be robot that can is safe for people to be around and so like it's kind of most around and so like it's kind of most around and so like it's kind of most people most people I think Envision that people most people I think Envision that people most people I think Envision that our warehouses are already fully our warehouses are already fully our warehouses are already fully automated and that they're just like automated and that they're just like automated and that they're just like robots doing things robots doing things robots doing things it's actually still really difficult to it's actually still really difficult to it's actually still really difficult to have robots and people in the same space have robots and people in the same space have robots and people in the same space because it's dangerous for the most part because it's dangerous for the most part because it's dangerous for the most part robots you know because especially robots you know because especially robots you know because especially robots that have to be strong enough to robots that have to be strong enough to robots that have to be strong enough to move something heavy for example they move something heavy for example they move something heavy for example they can really hurt somebody and so until can really hurt somebody and so until can really hurt somebody and so until now a lot of the warehouse robots had to now a lot of the warehouse robots had to now a lot of the warehouse robots had to just move along like pre-existing lines just move along like pre-existing lines just move along like pre-existing lines which really restricts what you can do which really restricts what you can do which really restricts what you can do um and so having I think that that's um and so having I think that that's um and so having I think that that's that's one of the big challenges and one that's one of the big challenges and one that's one of the big challenges and one of the big like exciting things that's of the big like exciting things that's of the big like exciting things that's happening is that we're starting to see happening is that we're starting to see happening is that we're starting to see more kobotics in industrial spaces like more kobotics in industrial spaces like more kobotics in industrial spaces like that where people and robots can work that where people and robots can work that where people and robots can work side by side and not get harmed yeah

side by side and not get harmed yeah side by side and not get harmed yeah that's what people don't realize sort of that's what people don't realize sort of that's what people don't realize sort of the physical manipulation tasks with the physical manipulation tasks with the physical manipulation tasks with humans humans humans it's not that the robots want to hurt it's not that the robots want to hurt it's not that the robots want to hurt you you you I think that's what people are worried I think that's what people are worried I think that's what people are worried about like this malevolent robot gets about like this malevolent robot gets about like this malevolent robot gets them out of its own and wants to destroy them out of its own and wants to destroy them out of its own and wants to destroy all humans now it's you know it's all humans now it's you know it's all humans now it's you know it's actually very difficult to know where actually very difficult to know where actually very difficult to know where the human is yeah and to to respond to the human is yeah and to to respond to the human is yeah and to to respond to the human and dynamically and the human and dynamically and the human and dynamically and collaborate with them on a task collaborate with them on a task collaborate with them on a task especially if you're something like an especially if you're something like an especially if you're something like an industrial robotic arm which is industrial robotic arm which is industrial robotic arm which is extremely powerful extremely powerful extremely powerful yeah this some of the some of those arms yeah this some of the some of those arms yeah this some of the some of those arms are pretty impressive now that are pretty impressive now that are pretty impressive now that you can just you can you can grab it you you can just you can you can grab it you you can just you can you can grab it you can move it so the the collaboration can move it so the the collaboration can move it so the the collaboration between human robot in the factory between human robot in the factory between human robot in the factory setting is really fascinating yeah setting is really fascinating yeah setting is really fascinating yeah um do you think they'll take our jobs um do you think they'll take our jobs um do you think they'll take our jobs I don't think it's that simple I think I don't think it's that simple I think I don't think it's that simple I think that there's a ton of disruption that's that there's a ton of disruption that's that there's a ton of disruption that's happening and will continue to happen happening and will continue to happen happening and will continue to happen um um um you know I think speaking specifically you know I think speaking specifically you know I think speaking specifically of the Amazon warehouses that might be of the Amazon warehouses that might be of the Amazon warehouses that might be an area where it would be good for an area where it would be good for an area where it would be good for robots to take some of the jobs that are robots to take some of the jobs that are robots to take some of the jobs that are you know where people are put in a you know where people are put in a you know where people are put in a position where it's unsafe and they're position where it's unsafe and they're position where it's unsafe and they're treated horribly and you know probably treated horribly and you know probably treated horribly and you know probably it would be better if a robot did that it would be better if a robot did that it would be better if a robot did that and Amazon is clearly trying to automate and Amazon is clearly trying to automate and Amazon is clearly trying to automate that job away so uh I think there's that job away so uh I think there's that job away so uh I think there's going to be a lot of disruption I do going to be a lot of disruption I do going to be a lot of disruption I do think that robots and humans have very think that robots and humans have very think that robots and humans have very different skill sets so while a robot

different skill sets so while a robot different skill sets so while a robot might take over a task might take over a task might take over a task it's not going to take over most jobs it's not going to take over most jobs it's not going to take over most jobs um um um I think just things will change a lot I think just things will change a lot I think just things will change a lot like I know one of the examples I have like I know one of the examples I have like I know one of the examples I have in the book is mining in the book is mining in the book is mining um so they're you have this job that is um so they're you have this job that is um so they're you have this job that is very unsafe and that requires a bunch of very unsafe and that requires a bunch of very unsafe and that requires a bunch of workers and puts them in unsafe workers and puts them in unsafe workers and puts them in unsafe conditions and now you have all these conditions and now you have all these conditions and now you have all these different robotic machines that can help different robotic machines that can help different robotic machines that can help make the job safer and as a result now make the job safer and as a result now make the job safer and as a result now people can sit in these like people can sit in these like people can sit in these like air-conditioned remote control stations air-conditioned remote control stations air-conditioned remote control stations and like control these autonomous mining and like control these autonomous mining and like control these autonomous mining trucks and so that's a much better job trucks and so that's a much better job trucks and so that's a much better job but also they're employing less people but also they're employing less people but also they're employing less people now so it's now so it's now so it's it's just a lot of it's just a lot of it's just a lot of I think from a bird's eye perspective I think from a bird's eye perspective I think from a bird's eye perspective you're not going to see job loss you're you're not going to see job loss you're you're not going to see job loss you're going to see more jobs created because going to see more jobs created because going to see more jobs created because that's I I think the future is not that's I I think the future is not that's I I think the future is not robots just becoming like people and robots just becoming like people and robots just becoming like people and taking their jobs the future is really a taking their jobs the future is really a taking their jobs the future is really a combination of our skills and then the combination of our skills and then the combination of our skills and then the supplemental skills that robots have to supplemental skills that robots have to supplemental skills that robots have to increase productivity to help people increase productivity to help people increase productivity to help people have better safer jobs to have better safer jobs to have better safer jobs to give people work that they actually give people work that they actually give people work that they actually enjoy doing and are good at enjoy doing and are good at enjoy doing and are good at um but it's really easy to say that from um but it's really easy to say that from um but it's really easy to say that from a bird's eye perspective and a bird's eye perspective and a bird's eye perspective and um ignore kind of the the rubble on the um ignore kind of the the rubble on the um ignore kind of the the rubble on the ground as we go through these ground as we go through these ground as we go through these transitions because of course specific

transitions because of course specific transitions because of course specific jobs are going to get lost if you look jobs are going to get lost if you look jobs are going to get lost if you look at the history of the 20th century it at the history of the 20th century it at the history of the 20th century it seems like automation seems like automation seems like automation constantly constantly constantly increases productivity and improves increases productivity and improves increases productivity and improves the average quality of life so it's it's the average quality of life so it's it's the average quality of life so it's it's been always good so like thinking about been always good so like thinking about been always good so like thinking about this time being different is that we this time being different is that we this time being different is that we would need to go against the lessons of would need to go against the lessons of would need to go against the lessons of History it's true History it's true History it's true and uh the other thing is I think people and uh the other thing is I think people and uh the other thing is I think people think that the automation of the think that the automation of the think that the automation of the physical tasks is easy I was I was just physical tasks is easy I was I was just physical tasks is easy I was I was just in Ukraine and the interesting thing is in Ukraine and the interesting thing is in Ukraine and the interesting thing is um um um I mean there's a lot of difficult and uh I mean there's a lot of difficult and uh I mean there's a lot of difficult and uh dark lessons just about a war zone but dark lessons just about a war zone but dark lessons just about a war zone but one of the things that happens in war is one of the things that happens in war is one of the things that happens in war is there's a lot of Mines that are placed there's a lot of Mines that are placed there's a lot of Mines that are placed um that's the this one of the big um that's the this one of the big um that's the this one of the big problems problems problems for years after a war is even over is for years after a war is even over is for years after a war is even over is the entire landscape is covered in mines the entire landscape is covered in mines the entire landscape is covered in mines and so there's a demining effort and so there's a demining effort and so there's a demining effort and you would think robots would be good and you would think robots would be good and you would think robots would be good at this kind of thing or like your at this kind of thing or like your at this kind of thing or like your intuition would be like well say you intuition would be like well say you intuition would be like well say you have unlimited money and you want to do have unlimited money and you want to do have unlimited money and you want to do a good job of it unlimited money you a good job of it unlimited money you a good job of it unlimited money you would get a lot of really nice robots would get a lot of really nice robots would get a lot of really nice robots but no humans are still far superior or but no humans are still far superior or but no humans are still far superior or animals or animals but even right but animals or animals but even right but animals or animals but even right but humans with animals together yeah you humans with animals together yeah you humans with animals together yeah you can't just have that's true dog with a can't just have that's true dog with a can't just have that's true dog with a hat hat hat that's fair

that's fair that's fair but yes and but figuring out also how to but yes and but figuring out also how to but yes and but figuring out also how to uh disable the mine uh disable the mine uh disable the mine obviously the easy thing the thing a obviously the easy thing the thing a obviously the easy thing the thing a robot can help with is to find the mine robot can help with is to find the mine robot can help with is to find the mine and blow it up but that's gonna destroy and blow it up but that's gonna destroy and blow it up but that's gonna destroy the landscape that that really does a the landscape that that really does a the landscape that that really does a lot of damage to the land you want to uh lot of damage to the land you want to uh lot of damage to the land you want to uh disable the mine and to do that because disable the mine and to do that because disable the mine and to do that because of all the different all the different of all the different all the different of all the different all the different edge cases of the problem it requires a edge cases of the problem it requires a edge cases of the problem it requires a huge amount of human-like experience it huge amount of human-like experience it huge amount of human-like experience it seems like so it's mostly done by humans seems like so it's mostly done by humans seems like so it's mostly done by humans they have no use for robots they don't they have no use for robots they don't they have no use for robots they don't want robots yeah I think we overestimate want robots yeah I think we overestimate want robots yeah I think we overestimate what we can automate what we can automate what we can automate in the especially in the Physical Realm in the especially in the Physical Realm in the especially in the Physical Realm yeah that's it's weird I mean it's yeah that's it's weird I mean it's yeah that's it's weird I mean it's continues that this this the story of continues that this this the story of continues that this this the story of humans we think were shitty at humans we think were shitty at humans we think were shitty at everything in the physical world everything in the physical world everything in the physical world including driving we think everybody including driving we think everybody including driving we think everybody makes fun of themselves and others for makes fun of themselves and others for makes fun of themselves and others for being shitty drivers but we're actually being shitty drivers but we're actually being shitty drivers but we're actually kind of incredible no incredible and kind of incredible no incredible and kind of incredible no incredible and that's why like that's why like that's why like that's the way Tesla still says that if that's the way Tesla still says that if that's the way Tesla still says that if you're in the driver's seat like you you you're in the driver's seat like you you you're in the driver's seat like you you are ultimately responsible because the are ultimately responsible because the are ultimately responsible because the ideal for I mean I mean you know more ideal for I mean I mean you know more ideal for I mean I mean you know more about this than I do but about this than I do but about this than I do but he like robot cars are great at he like robot cars are great at he like robot cars are great at predictable things and can react faster predictable things and can react faster predictable things and can react faster and more precisely than a person and can and more precisely than a person and can and more precisely than a person and can do a lot of the driving and then the do a lot of the driving and then the do a lot of the driving and then the reason that we still don't have reason that we still don't have reason that we still don't have autonomous vehicles on all the roads yet autonomous vehicles on all the roads yet autonomous vehicles on all the roads yet is because of this long tail of just

is because of this long tail of just is because of this long tail of just unexpected occurrences where a human unexpected occurrences where a human unexpected occurrences where a human immediately understands that's the immediately understands that's the immediately understands that's the sunset and not a traffic light that's a sunset and not a traffic light that's a sunset and not a traffic light that's a horse and carriage ahead of me on the horse and carriage ahead of me on the horse and carriage ahead of me on the highway but the car has never highway but the car has never highway but the car has never encountered that before so like in encountered that before so like in encountered that before so like in theory combining those skill sets is theory combining those skill sets is theory combining those skill sets is what's gonna really be powerful what's gonna really be powerful what's gonna really be powerful the only problem is figuring off the the only problem is figuring off the the only problem is figuring off the figuring out the human robot interaction figuring out the human robot interaction figuring out the human robot interaction and the handoffs so like in cars that's and the handoffs so like in cars that's and the handoffs so like in cars that's a huge problem right now figuring out a huge problem right now figuring out a huge problem right now figuring out the handoffs the handoffs the handoffs um but in other areas uh it might be um but in other areas uh it might be um but in other areas uh it might be easier and that's really the future is easier and that's really the future is easier and that's really the future is human robot interaction human robot interaction human robot interaction well it's really hard to improve well it's really hard to improve well it's really hard to improve it's it's it's terrible that people die it's it's it's terrible that people die it's it's it's terrible that people die in car in car in car accidents but I mean it's like 70 80 100 accidents but I mean it's like 70 80 100 accidents but I mean it's like 70 80 100 million miles one death per million miles one death per million miles one death per uh 80 million miles that's like really uh 80 million miles that's like really uh 80 million miles that's like really hard to beat for a robot that's that's hard to beat for a robot that's that's hard to beat for a robot that's that's like incredible that like think about it like incredible that like think about it like incredible that like think about it like the how many people the just the like the how many people the just the like the how many people the just the number of people throughout the world number of people throughout the world number of people throughout the world that are driving every single day all that are driving every single day all that are driving every single day all this you know Steve deprived drunk this you know Steve deprived drunk this you know Steve deprived drunk uh distracted all of that and still very uh distracted all of that and still very uh distracted all of that and still very few die relative to what I would imagine few die relative to what I would imagine few die relative to what I would imagine if I were to guess back in the horse see if I were to guess back in the horse see if I were to guess back in the horse see when I was like in the in the beginning when I was like in the in the beginning when I was like in the in the beginning of the 20th century riding my horse I of the 20th century riding my horse I of the 20th century riding my horse I would talk so much shit about these cars would talk so much shit about these cars would talk so much shit about these cars I'd be like this is gonna this is I'd be like this is gonna this is I'd be like this is gonna this is extremely dangerous these machines extremely dangerous these machines extremely dangerous these machines traveling at 30 miles an hour or traveling at 30 miles an hour or traveling at 30 miles an hour or whatever the hell they're going at this

whatever the hell they're going at this whatever the hell they're going at this is irresponsible it's unnatural and and is irresponsible it's unnatural and and is irresponsible it's unnatural and and it's going to be destructive to all of it's going to be destructive to all of it's going to be destructive to all of human society but then it's extremely human society but then it's extremely human society but then it's extremely surprising how humans adapt to the thing surprising how humans adapt to the thing surprising how humans adapt to the thing and they know how to not kill each other and they know how to not kill each other and they know how to not kill each other um I mean that at ability to adapt is um I mean that at ability to adapt is um I mean that at ability to adapt is incredible and to mimic that in the incredible and to mimic that in the incredible and to mimic that in the machine is really tricky machine is really tricky machine is really tricky now that said what Tesla is doing it I now that said what Tesla is doing it I now that said what Tesla is doing it I mean I wouldn't have guessed how far mean I wouldn't have guessed how far mean I wouldn't have guessed how far machine learning can go on Vision alone machine learning can go on Vision alone machine learning can go on Vision alone it's really really incredible and people it's really really incredible and people it's really really incredible and people that are that are that are at least from my perspective people that at least from my perspective people that at least from my perspective people that are kind of um are kind of um are kind of um uh you know critical of Elon and those uh you know critical of Elon and those uh you know critical of Elon and those efforts efforts efforts I think don't give enough credit how I think don't give enough credit how I think don't give enough credit how much progress we made some how much much progress we made some how much much progress we made some how much incredible progress has been made in incredible progress has been made in incredible progress has been made in that direction I think most of the that direction I think most of the that direction I think most of the robotics Community wouldn't have guessed robotics Community wouldn't have guessed robotics Community wouldn't have guessed how much you can do on Vision alone it's how much you can do on Vision alone it's how much you can do on Vision alone it's kind of incredible kind of incredible kind of incredible um because we would be I think it's that um because we would be I think it's that um because we would be I think it's that approach which is relatively unique approach which is relatively unique approach which is relatively unique has challenged the other competitors to has challenged the other competitors to has challenged the other competitors to step up their game so if you're using step up their game so if you're using step up their game so if you're using lidar if you're using mapping lidar if you're using mapping lidar if you're using mapping um that challenges them to do um that challenges them to do um that challenges them to do better to scale faster and to use better to scale faster and to use better to scale faster and to use machine learning and computer vision as machine learning and computer vision as machine learning and computer vision as well to integrate both lidar and vision well to integrate both lidar and vision well to integrate both lidar and vision so so so um it's kind of incredible and I'm not um it's kind of incredible and I'm not um it's kind of incredible and I'm not I don't know if I even have a good I don't know if I even have a good I don't know if I even have a good intuition of how hard driving is anymore

intuition of how hard driving is anymore intuition of how hard driving is anymore maybe it is possible to solve maybe it is possible to solve maybe it is possible to solve so all the stuff you mentioned yeah the so all the stuff you mentioned yeah the so all the stuff you mentioned yeah the question is one yeah I think it's not question is one yeah I think it's not question is one yeah I think it's not happening as quickly as people thought happening as quickly as people thought happening as quickly as people thought it would because it is more complicated it would because it is more complicated it would because it is more complicated but I wouldn't have but I wouldn't have but I wouldn't have I I agree with you my current intuition I I agree with you my current intuition I I agree with you my current intuition is that we're gonna get there I think is that we're gonna get there I think is that we're gonna get there I think we're gonna get there too but I didn't we're gonna get there too but I didn't we're gonna get there too but I didn't before I wasn't sure we're gonna get before I wasn't sure we're gonna get before I wasn't sure we're gonna get there without like with current there without like with current there without like with current technology technology technology so you know I I was kind of this is like so you know I I was kind of this is like so you know I I was kind of this is like with vision alone I my intuition was with vision alone I my intuition was with vision alone I my intuition was you're gonna have to solve like Common you're gonna have to solve like Common you're gonna have to solve like Common Sense reasoning Sense reasoning Sense reasoning you're gonna have to you're gonna have you're gonna have to you're gonna have you're gonna have to you're gonna have to solve some of the big problems in to solve some of the big problems in to solve some of the big problems in artificial intelligence not just artificial intelligence not just artificial intelligence not just uh not just perception uh not just perception uh not just perception yeah like you have to have a deep yeah like you have to have a deep yeah like you have to have a deep understanding of the world it's always understanding of the world it's always understanding of the world it's always my sense but now I'm starting to like my sense but now I'm starting to like my sense but now I'm starting to like well this I mean I'm continuously well this I mean I'm continuously well this I mean I'm continuously surprised how well the thing works yeah surprised how well the thing works yeah surprised how well the thing works yeah obviously Elon and others others have obviously Elon and others others have obviously Elon and others others have stopped but Elon continues you know stopped but Elon continues you know stopped but Elon continues you know saying we're going to solve it in a year saying we're going to solve it in a year saying we're going to solve it in a year oh yeah that's the thing bold oh yeah that's the thing bold oh yeah that's the thing bold predictions though yeah well everyone predictions though yeah well everyone predictions though yeah well everyone else used to be doing that but they kind else used to be doing that but they kind else used to be doing that but they kind of like all right yeah or maybe more of like all right yeah or maybe more of like all right yeah or maybe more maybe let's not promise we're gonna maybe let's not promise we're gonna maybe let's not promise we're gonna solve uh level four driving by 2020.

solve uh level four driving by 2020. solve uh level four driving by 2020. let's uh let's chill on that but people let's uh let's chill on that but people let's uh let's chill on that but people are still trying silently I mean the UK are still trying silently I mean the UK are still trying silently I mean the UK just committed 100 million pounds to just committed 100 million pounds to just committed 100 million pounds to research and development to speed up the research and development to speed up the research and development to speed up the process of getting autonomous vehicles process of getting autonomous vehicles process of getting autonomous vehicles on the road like everyone is everyone on the road like everyone is everyone on the road like everyone is everyone can see that it is solvable and it's can see that it is solvable and it's can see that it is solvable and it's going to happen and it's going to change going to happen and it's going to change going to happen and it's going to change everything and they're still investing everything and they're still investing everything and they're still investing in it and uh like waymo Loki has in it and uh like waymo Loki has in it and uh like waymo Loki has driverless cars in in Arizona driverless cars in in Arizona driverless cars in in Arizona like you can get you know there's like like you can get you know there's like like you can get you know there's like robots robots robots it's weird have you ever been to one no it's weird have you ever been to one no it's weird have you ever been to one no it's so weird it's so awesome because uh it's so weird it's so awesome because uh it's so weird it's so awesome because uh the the most awesome experience is a is the the most awesome experience is a is the the most awesome experience is a is the wheel turning and you're sitting in the wheel turning and you're sitting in the wheel turning and you're sitting in the back it's like the back it's like the back it's like I don't know it's uh I don't know it's uh I don't know it's uh it feels like you're a passenger with it feels like you're a passenger with it feels like you're a passenger with that friend who's a little crazy of a that friend who's a little crazy of a that friend who's a little crazy of a driver it feels like driver it feels like driver it feels like shit I don't know are you right to drive shit I don't know are you right to drive shit I don't know are you right to drive bro you know that kind of feeling good bro you know that kind of feeling good bro you know that kind of feeling good but but then you kind of but but then you kind of but but then you kind of that experience that nervousness that experience that nervousness that experience that nervousness um and the excitement of trusting um and the excitement of trusting um and the excitement of trusting another being in this case it's a another being in this case it's a another being in this case it's a machine it's really interesting machine it's really interesting machine it's really interesting um just even introspecting your own um just even introspecting your own um just even introspecting your own feelings about the thing yeah uh they're feelings about the thing yeah uh they're feelings about the thing yeah uh they're not doing not doing not doing anything in terms of making you feel anything in terms of making you feel anything in terms of making you feel better

better better like at least waymo I think they went like at least waymo I think they went like at least waymo I think they went with the approach of like let's not try with the approach of like let's not try with the approach of like let's not try to put eyes on the thing to put eyes on the thing to put eyes on the thing let's it's it's a it's a wheel we know let's it's it's a it's a wheel we know let's it's it's a it's a wheel we know what that looks like it's just a car what that looks like it's just a car what that looks like it's just a car it's a car get in the back let's not it's a car get in the back let's not it's a car get in the back let's not like discuss this at all let's not like discuss this at all let's not like discuss this at all let's not discuss the fact that this is a robot discuss the fact that this is a robot discuss the fact that this is a robot driving you and you're in the back and driving you and you're in the back and driving you and you're in the back and if the robot wants to start driving 80 if the robot wants to start driving 80 if the robot wants to start driving 80 miles an hour and run off of a bridge miles an hour and run off of a bridge miles an hour and run off of a bridge you have no recourse let's not discuss you have no recourse let's not discuss you have no recourse let's not discuss this you're just getting in the back this you're just getting in the back this you're just getting in the back there's no discussion about like how there's no discussion about like how there's no discussion about like how shit can go wrong uh there's no eyes shit can go wrong uh there's no eyes shit can go wrong uh there's no eyes there's nothing there's like a map there's nothing there's like a map there's nothing there's like a map showing what the car can see showing what the car can see showing what the car can see like you know what happens if it's like like you know what happens if it's like like you know what happens if it's like uh a HAL 9000 situation like I'm like uh a HAL 9000 situation like I'm like uh a HAL 9000 situation like I'm like I'm sorry I can't you have a button you I'm sorry I can't you have a button you I'm sorry I can't you have a button you can like call customer service oh God can like call customer service oh God can like call customer service oh God then you get put on hold for two hours then you get put on hold for two hours then you get put on hold for two hours yeah probably yeah probably yeah probably um but you know currently what they're um but you know currently what they're um but you know currently what they're doing which I think doing which I think doing which I think is understandable but you know the car is understandable but you know the car is understandable but you know the car just can pull over and stop and wait for just can pull over and stop and wait for just can pull over and stop and wait for help to arrive and then a driver will help to arrive and then a driver will help to arrive and then a driver will come and then they'll actually drive the come and then they'll actually drive the come and then they'll actually drive the car for you but that's like you know car for you but that's like you know car for you but that's like you know what if you're late what if you're late what if you're late for meeting or all that kind of stuff or for meeting or all that kind of stuff or for meeting or all that kind of stuff or like the more dystopian isn't it the like the more dystopian isn't it the like the more dystopian isn't it the Fifth Element where it's Will Smith in Fifth Element where it's Will Smith in Fifth Element where it's Will Smith in it who's in that movie no Bruce Willis it who's in that movie no Bruce Willis it who's in that movie no Bruce Willis Bruce Willis oh yeah and he gets into Bruce Willis oh yeah and he gets into Bruce Willis oh yeah and he gets into like a robotic cab or car or something like a robotic cab or car or something like a robotic cab or car or something and then because he's violated a traffic and then because he's violated a traffic and then because he's violated a traffic rule it locks him in yeah and he has to rule it locks him in yeah and he has to rule it locks him in yeah and he has to wait for the cops to come and he can't

wait for the cops to come and he can't wait for the cops to come and he can't get out so like yeah we're gonna see get out so like yeah we're gonna see get out so like yeah we're gonna see stuff like that maybe stuff like that maybe stuff like that maybe what's this what's this what's this I I believe that the companies that have I I believe that the companies that have I I believe that the companies that have robots robots robots the the only ones that will succeed are the the only ones that will succeed are the the only ones that will succeed are the ones that don't do that meaning they the ones that don't do that meaning they the ones that don't do that meaning they respect respect respect privacy you think so yeah because people privacy you think so yeah because people privacy you think so yeah because people because because they're gonna have to because because they're gonna have to because because they're gonna have to earn people's trust yeah but like Amazon earn people's trust yeah but like Amazon earn people's trust yeah but like Amazon works with law enforcement and gives works with law enforcement and gives works with law enforcement and gives them the data from The Ring cameras so them the data from The Ring cameras so them the data from The Ring cameras so why should it yeah why should it yeah why should it yeah do you have a ring camera do you have a ring camera do you have a ring camera uh no okay no no but you know basically uh no okay no no but you know basically uh no okay no no but you know basically any security camera right I've uh any security camera right I've uh any security camera right I've uh Google's whatever they have we have one Google's whatever they have we have one Google's whatever they have we have one that's not that's not that's not the data at least or the data on a local the data at least or the data on a local the data at least or the data on a local server because we don't want it to go to server because we don't want it to go to server because we don't want it to go to law enforcement because all the law enforcement because all the law enforcement because all the companies are doing it they're doing I I companies are doing it they're doing I I companies are doing it they're doing I I bet Apple wouldn't bet Apple wouldn't bet Apple wouldn't yeah the only company I trust and I yeah the only company I trust and I yeah the only company I trust and I don't know how much longer don't know how much longer don't know how much longer I don't know I don't know I don't know I I I maybe that's true for cameras maybe that's true for cameras maybe that's true for cameras but with robots people are just not but with robots people are just not but with robots people are just not going to let a robot inside their home going to let a robot inside their home going to let a robot inside their home where like one time where somebody gets where like one time where somebody gets where like one time where somebody gets arrested because of something a robot arrested because of something a robot arrested because of something a robot sees that's going to be that's gonna sees that's going to be that's gonna sees that's going to be that's gonna destroy a company you don't think people destroy a company you don't think people destroy a company you don't think people are going to be like well that wouldn't are going to be like well that wouldn't are going to be like well that wouldn't happen to me that happened to a bad happen to me that happened to a bad happen to me that happened to a bad person person person and I think they would yeah because in

and I think they would yeah because in and I think they would yeah because in the modern world people I get have you the modern world people I get have you the modern world people I get have you seen Twitter they get extremely paranoid seen Twitter they get extremely paranoid seen Twitter they get extremely paranoid about any kind of surveillance but the about any kind of surveillance but the about any kind of surveillance but the thing that I've had to learn is that thing that I've had to learn is that thing that I've had to learn is that Twitter is not the modern world like Twitter is not the modern world like Twitter is not the modern world like when I go when I go when I go you know Inland to visit my relatives you know Inland to visit my relatives you know Inland to visit my relatives like they don't that's a different like they don't that's a different like they don't that's a different discourse that's happening I think like discourse that's happening I think like discourse that's happening I think like the whole Tech criticism world yeah it's the whole Tech criticism world yeah it's the whole Tech criticism world yeah it's loud in our ears because we're in those loud in our ears because we're in those loud in our ears because we're in those circles do you think you can be a circles do you think you can be a circles do you think you can be a company that does social Robotics and company that does social Robotics and company that does social Robotics and not win over Twitter not win over Twitter not win over Twitter that's a good question I feel like the that's a good question I feel like the that's a good question I feel like the early adopters are all on Twitter early adopters are all on Twitter early adopters are all on Twitter and it feels like you have to win them and it feels like you have to win them and it feels like you have to win them over feels like nowadays you'd have to over feels like nowadays you'd have to over feels like nowadays you'd have to win over Tick Tock honestly win over Tick Tock honestly win over Tick Tock honestly I don't is that is that a website I hate to check it out I hate to check it out um um um and that's an interesting one because and that's an interesting one because and that's an interesting one because China is behind that one China is behind that one China is behind that one exactly exactly exactly uh so it's compelling enough maybe uh so it's compelling enough maybe uh so it's compelling enough maybe people would be able to uh give up people would be able to uh give up people would be able to uh give up privacy and that kind of stuff privacy and that kind of stuff privacy and that kind of stuff that's really I just I mean that's really I just I mean that's really I just I mean I'm worried about it I'm worried about I'm worried about it I'm worried about I'm worried about it I'm worried about it and I'm it and I'm it and I'm there have been some developments there have been some developments there have been some developments recently that are like super exciting recently that are like super exciting recently that are like super exciting like the large language learning models like the large language learning models like the large language learning models like wow I did not anticipate those like wow I did not anticipate those like wow I did not anticipate those improving so quickly improving so quickly improving so quickly and those are going to change everything and those are going to change everything and those are going to change everything and one of the things that I'm trying to and one of the things that I'm trying to and one of the things that I'm trying to be cynical about is that I think they're

be cynical about is that I think they're be cynical about is that I think they're gonna have a big impact on privacy and gonna have a big impact on privacy and gonna have a big impact on privacy and data security and like manipulating data security and like manipulating data security and like manipulating consumers and manipulating people consumers and manipulating people consumers and manipulating people because suddenly you'll have these because suddenly you'll have these because suddenly you'll have these agents that people will talk to and they agents that people will talk to and they agents that people will talk to and they won't care or won't know won't care or won't know won't care or won't know at least on a conscious level that it's at least on a conscious level that it's at least on a conscious level that it's recording the conversations so kind of recording the conversations so kind of recording the conversations so kind of like we were talking about before like we were talking about before like we were talking about before um and at the same time the technology um and at the same time the technology um and at the same time the technology is so freaking exciting that it's going is so freaking exciting that it's going is so freaking exciting that it's going to get adopted it's not even just a to get adopted it's not even just a to get adopted it's not even just a collection of data but the ability to collection of data but the ability to collection of data but the ability to manipulate manipulate manipulate at scale at scale at scale so um what do you think about the AI so um what do you think about the AI so um what do you think about the AI the engineer from from Google the engineer from from Google the engineer from from Google that thought Lambda is sentient that thought Lambda is sentient that thought Lambda is sentient he had actually a really good post from he had actually a really good post from he had actually a really good post from somebody else I forgot her name it's somebody else I forgot her name it's somebody else I forgot her name it's brilliant I can't believe I didn't know brilliant I can't believe I didn't know brilliant I can't believe I didn't know about her thank you yeah for weird AI oh about her thank you yeah for weird AI oh about her thank you yeah for weird AI oh yeah I love her book oh she she's great yeah I love her book oh she she's great yeah I love her book oh she she's great I left a note for myself to reach out to I left a note for myself to reach out to I left a note for myself to reach out to her she's amazing she's hilarious and her she's amazing she's hilarious and her she's amazing she's hilarious and Brilliant and just a great summarizer of Brilliant and just a great summarizer of Brilliant and just a great summarizer of the state of AI but she has the state of AI but she has the state of AI but she has um I think that was from her where I was um I think that was from her where I was um I think that was from her where I was looking at looking at looking at uh AI explaining that it's a squirrel oh uh AI explaining that it's a squirrel oh uh AI explaining that it's a squirrel oh yeah because the transcripts that the yeah because the transcripts that the yeah because the transcripts that the engineer released engineer released engineer released Lambda kind of talks about the Lambda kind of talks about the Lambda kind of talks about the experience of experience of experience of human-like feelings and I think even human-like feelings and I think even human-like feelings and I think even consciousness and so she was like oh consciousness and so she was like oh consciousness and so she was like oh cool that's impressive I wonder if an AI cool that's impressive I wonder if an AI cool that's impressive I wonder if an AI can also describe the experience of can also describe the experience of can also describe the experience of being a squirrel and so she interviewed

being a squirrel and so she interviewed being a squirrel and so she interviewed I think she did gbt3 I think she did gbt3 I think she did gbt3 about the experience of being a squirrel about the experience of being a squirrel about the experience of being a squirrel and then she did a bunch of other ones and then she did a bunch of other ones and then she did a bunch of other ones too like what's it like being a flock of too like what's it like being a flock of too like what's it like being a flock of crows what's it like being an algorithm crows what's it like being an algorithm crows what's it like being an algorithm that powers a Roomba and like yeah you that powers a Roomba and like yeah you that powers a Roomba and like yeah you can have a conversation about any of can have a conversation about any of can have a conversation about any of those things and they're very very those things and they're very very those things and they're very very convincing yeah yeah even gpg3 which is convincing yeah yeah even gpg3 which is convincing yeah yeah even gpg3 which is not like state of the art right it's not like state of the art right it's not like state of the art right it's convincing of being a squirrel it's like convincing of being a squirrel it's like convincing of being a squirrel it's like what what it's like I mean you should what what it's like I mean you should what what it's like I mean you should check it out because it really is it's check it out because it really is it's check it out because it really is it's like yeah that probably is what a like yeah that probably is what a like yeah that probably is what a squirrel would would say squirrel would would say squirrel would would say are you excited like what's it like are you excited like what's it like are you excited like what's it like being a squirrel that's fun okay I get being a squirrel that's fun okay I get being a squirrel that's fun okay I get to eat nuts and run around all day to eat nuts and run around all day to eat nuts and run around all day uh like how do you think people feel uh like how do you think people feel uh like how do you think people feel like when you tell them that you're a like when you tell them that you're a like when you tell them that you're a squirrel squirrel squirrel um you know or like I forget what it was um you know or like I forget what it was um you know or like I forget what it was like a lot of people might be scared to like a lot of people might be scared to like a lot of people might be scared to find out that you're squirrel or find out that you're squirrel or find out that you're squirrel or something like this and then the system something like this and then the system something like this and then the system Answers Pretty like yeah pretty well Answers Pretty like yeah pretty well Answers Pretty like yeah pretty well like yeah like like yeah like like yeah like um I hope they'll like what do you think um I hope they'll like what do you think um I hope they'll like what do you think the when they find out you're a squirrel um I I hope they'll see how fun it is to um I I hope they'll see how fun it is to be a score like that what do you say to be a score like that what do you say to be a score like that what do you say to people who don't believe you're a people who don't believe you're a people who don't believe you're a squirrel I say come see for yourself I squirrel I say come see for yourself I squirrel I say come see for yourself I am a squirrel that's great well I think am a squirrel that's great well I think am a squirrel that's great well I think it's really great because it it like the it's really great because it it like the it's really great because it it like the two things to note about it are first of two things to note about it are first of two things to note about it are first of all just because the machine is all just because the machine is all just because the machine is describing an experience doesn't mean it describing an experience doesn't mean it describing an experience doesn't mean it can it actually has that experience but can it actually has that experience but can it actually has that experience but then secondly these things are getting then secondly these things are getting then secondly these things are getting so Advanced and so convincing at so Advanced and so convincing at so Advanced and so convincing at describing these things and talking to

describing these things and talking to describing these things and talking to people people people that's I mean just the implications for that's I mean just the implications for that's I mean just the implications for health education communication health education communication health education communication entertainment gaming like I just like entertainment gaming like I just like entertainment gaming like I just like all of the applications it's all of the applications it's all of the applications it's mind-boggling what we're going to be mind-boggling what we're going to be mind-boggling what we're going to be able to do with this and and that my able to do with this and and that my able to do with this and and that my kids are not going to remember a time kids are not going to remember a time kids are not going to remember a time before they could have conversations before they could have conversations before they could have conversations with artificial agents do you think they with artificial agents do you think they with artificial agents do you think they would because to me this is uh would because to me this is uh would because to me this is uh the focus in the ad Community has been the focus in the ad Community has been the focus in the ad Community has been well this engineer well this engineer well this engineer Shirley's hallucinating the thing is not Shirley's hallucinating the thing is not Shirley's hallucinating the thing is not sentient sentient sentient but to me I first of all it doesn't but to me I first of all it doesn't but to me I first of all it doesn't matter if he is or not this is coming matter if he is or not this is coming matter if he is or not this is coming yeah where a large number of people yeah where a large number of people yeah where a large number of people would believe a system has sent you would believe a system has sent you would believe a system has sent you including Engineers within companies including Engineers within companies including Engineers within companies yeah so in that sense you start to think yeah so in that sense you start to think yeah so in that sense you start to think about a world where like your kids about a world where like your kids about a world where like your kids aren't just used to having a aren't just used to having a aren't just used to having a conversation with the bot but used to conversation with the bot but used to conversation with the bot but used to believing kind of believing kind of believing kind of having an implied belief that the thing having an implied belief that the thing having an implied belief that the thing is sentient is sentient is sentient yeah I think I think that's true and I yeah I think I think that's true and I yeah I think I think that's true and I think that think that think that one of the things that bothered me about one of the things that bothered me about one of the things that bothered me about all of the coverage in the tech press all of the coverage in the tech press all of the coverage in the tech press about this incident like obviously I about this incident like obviously I about this incident like obviously I don't believe the system is sentient don't believe the system is sentient don't believe the system is sentient like I think that it can convincingly like I think that it can convincingly like I think that it can convincingly describe that it is I don't think it's describe that it is I don't think it's describe that it is I don't think it's doing what he thought it was doing and doing what he thought it was doing and doing what he thought it was doing and actually experiencing feelings but a lot actually experiencing feelings but a lot actually experiencing feelings but a lot of the tech press was about how he was of the tech press was about how he was of the tech press was about how he was wrong and depicting him as kind of naive

wrong and depicting him as kind of naive wrong and depicting him as kind of naive and it's not naive like there's so much and it's not naive like there's so much and it's not naive like there's so much research in my field showing that people research in my field showing that people research in my field showing that people do this even experts they they might be do this even experts they they might be do this even experts they they might be very clinical when they're doing human very clinical when they're doing human very clinical when they're doing human robot interaction experiments with a robot interaction experiments with a robot interaction experiments with a robot that they've built and then you robot that they've built and then you robot that they've built and then you bring in a different robot and they're bring in a different robot and they're bring in a different robot and they're like oh look like oh look like oh look it on it's doing this like that happens it on it's doing this like that happens it on it's doing this like that happens in our lab all the time in our lab all the time in our lab all the time we are all this guy and it's gonna it's we are all this guy and it's gonna it's we are all this guy and it's gonna it's gonna be huge so I think that gonna be huge so I think that gonna be huge so I think that the the goal is not to discourage this the the goal is not to discourage this the the goal is not to discourage this kind of belief or like Design Systems kind of belief or like Design Systems kind of belief or like Design Systems that people won't think are sentient I that people won't think are sentient I that people won't think are sentient I don't think that's possible I think don't think that's possible I think don't think that's possible I think you're right this is coming it's you're right this is coming it's you're right this is coming it's something that we have to acknowledge something that we have to acknowledge something that we have to acknowledge and even embrace and even embrace and even embrace and be very aware of so one of the and be very aware of so one of the and be very aware of so one of the really interesting perspectives that really interesting perspectives that really interesting perspectives that your book takes your book takes your book takes on a system like this is to see them not on a system like this is to see them not on a system like this is to see them not to compare something like this to humans to compare something like this to humans to compare something like this to humans but to compare it to animals of how we but to compare it to animals of how we but to compare it to animals of how we see animals can you kind of try to again see animals can you kind of try to again see animals can you kind of try to again sneak up try to explain why this analogy sneak up try to explain why this analogy sneak up try to explain why this analogy is better than the human analogy the is better than the human analogy the is better than the human analogy the analogy of robots as animals yeah and it analogy of robots as animals yeah and it analogy of robots as animals yeah and it gets trickier with the language stuff gets trickier with the language stuff gets trickier with the language stuff but we'll get into that too but we'll get into that too but we'll get into that too um um um I think that animals are a really great I think that animals are a really great I think that animals are a really great thought experiment when we're thinking thought experiment when we're thinking thought experiment when we're thinking about Ai and Robotics because again this about Ai and Robotics because again this about Ai and Robotics because again this comparing them to humans that leads us comparing them to humans that leads us comparing them to humans that leads us down the wrong path both because it's down the wrong path both because it's down the wrong path both because it's not accurate but also I think for the not accurate but also I think for the not accurate but also I think for the future we don't want that

future we don't want that future we don't want that we want something that's a supplement we want something that's a supplement we want something that's a supplement but I think animals because we've used but I think animals because we've used but I think animals because we've used them throughout history for so many them throughout history for so many them throughout history for so many different things we we domesticated them different things we we domesticated them different things we we domesticated them not because they do what we do but not because they do what we do but not because they do what we do but because what they do is different and because what they do is different and because what they do is different and that's useful and I it's just like that's useful and I it's just like that's useful and I it's just like whether we're talking about whether we're talking about whether we're talking about companionship whether we're talking companionship whether we're talking companionship whether we're talking about work integration whether we're about work integration whether we're about work integration whether we're talking about responsibility for harm talking about responsibility for harm talking about responsibility for harm there's just so many things we can draw there's just so many things we can draw there's just so many things we can draw on in that history from these entities on in that history from these entities on in that history from these entities that can sense think make autonomous that can sense think make autonomous that can sense think make autonomous decisions and learn that are applicable decisions and learn that are applicable decisions and learn that are applicable to how we should be thinking about to how we should be thinking about to how we should be thinking about robots in Ai and and the point of the robots in Ai and and the point of the robots in Ai and and the point of the book is not that they're the same thing book is not that they're the same thing book is not that they're the same thing that animals and robots are the same that animals and robots are the same that animals and robots are the same obviously there are tons of differences obviously there are tons of differences obviously there are tons of differences there like you can't you can't have a there like you can't you can't have a there like you can't you can't have a conversation with a squirrel right but conversation with a squirrel right but conversation with a squirrel right but the the point you do it all the time oh the the point you do it all the time oh the the point you do it all the time oh really by the way squirrels are the really by the way squirrels are the really by the way squirrels are the cutest I project so much on squirrels I cutest I project so much on squirrels I cutest I project so much on squirrels I wonder what their inner life is wonder what their inner life is wonder what their inner life is um I suspect they're much bigger um I suspect they're much bigger um I suspect they're much bigger assholes than we imagine really like if assholes than we imagine really like if assholes than we imagine really like if it was a giant squirrel it would fuck it was a giant squirrel it would fuck it was a giant squirrel it would fuck you over so fast if you had the chance you over so fast if you had the chance you over so fast if you had the chance it would take everything you own it it would take everything you own it it would take everything you own it would eat all your stuff because it's would eat all your stuff because it's would eat all your stuff because it's small and the Furry Tail the furry tale small and the Furry Tail the furry tale small and the Furry Tail the furry tale is a is a is a is uh is uh is uh is a weapon against human consciousness is a weapon against human consciousness is a weapon against human consciousness and cognition it wins us over that's and cognition it wins us over that's and cognition it wins us over that's what cats do too cats out I'll competed what cats do too cats out I'll competed what cats do too cats out I'll competed squirrels squirrels squirrels and dogs like yeah dogs no dogs have and dogs like yeah dogs no dogs have and dogs like yeah dogs no dogs have love cats are have no soul they I'm just love cats are have no soul they I'm just love cats are have no soul they I'm just kidding people get so angry I talk shit

kidding people get so angry I talk shit kidding people get so angry I talk shit about cats that I love cats anyway uh so about cats that I love cats anyway uh so about cats that I love cats anyway uh so yeah uh yeah you're you're describing yeah uh yeah you're you're describing yeah uh yeah you're you're describing all the different kinds of animals that all the different kinds of animals that all the different kinds of animals that get domesticated get domesticated get domesticated and it's a really interesting idea that and it's a really interesting idea that and it's a really interesting idea that it's not just sort of pets there's all it's not just sort of pets there's all it's not just sort of pets there's all kinds of domestication going on they all kinds of domestication going on they all kinds of domestication going on they all have all kinds of uses yes like the uh have all kinds of uses yes like the uh have all kinds of uses yes like the uh Ox that you Ox that you Ox that you propose might be propose might be propose might be at least historically one of the most at least historically one of the most at least historically one of the most useful domesticated animals it was a useful domesticated animals it was a useful domesticated animals it was a game changer because it revolutionized game changer because it revolutionized game changer because it revolutionized like what people could do economically like what people could do economically like what people could do economically Etc so I I mean just like robots They're Etc so I I mean just like robots They're Etc so I I mean just like robots They're Gonna Change they're going to change Gonna Change they're going to change Gonna Change they're going to change things economically they're going to things economically they're going to things economically they're going to change Landscapes like cities might even change Landscapes like cities might even change Landscapes like cities might even get rebuilt around autonomous vehicles get rebuilt around autonomous vehicles get rebuilt around autonomous vehicles or drones or delivery robots like I or drones or delivery robots like I or drones or delivery robots like I think just the same ways that animals think just the same ways that animals think just the same ways that animals have really shifted society and Society have really shifted society and Society have really shifted society and Society has adapted also to like socially has adapted also to like socially has adapted also to like socially accepting animals as pets accepting animals as pets accepting animals as pets um I think we're going to see very um I think we're going to see very um I think we're going to see very similar things with robots so I think similar things with robots so I think similar things with robots so I think it's a useful analogy it's not a perfect it's a useful analogy it's not a perfect it's a useful analogy it's not a perfect one but I think it's it helps us get one but I think it's it helps us get one but I think it's it helps us get away from this idea that robots can away from this idea that robots can away from this idea that robots can shoot or will replace people if you shoot or will replace people if you shoot or will replace people if you remember what are some interesting uses remember what are some interesting uses remember what are some interesting uses of animals ferrets for example oh yeah of animals ferrets for example oh yeah of animals ferrets for example oh yeah the ferrets they they still do this they the ferrets they they still do this they the ferrets they they still do this they use ferrets to go into narrow spaces use ferrets to go into narrow spaces use ferrets to go into narrow spaces that people can't go into like a pipe or that people can't go into like a pipe or that people can't go into like a pipe or like they'll use in the wrong electrical like they'll use in the wrong electrical like they'll use in the wrong electrical wire I think they did that for princess wire I think they did that for princess wire I think they did that for princess dies for wedding there's so many weird dies for wedding there's so many weird dies for wedding there's so many weird ways we've used animals and still use ways we've used animals and still use ways we've used animals and still use animals for things that robots can't do

animals for things that robots can't do animals for things that robots can't do like the dolphins that they used in the like the dolphins that they used in the like the dolphins that they used in the in the military I think the I think in the military I think the I think in the military I think the I think Russia still has Dolphins and the US Russia still has Dolphins and the US Russia still has Dolphins and the US Dollars dolphins in their navies Dollars dolphins in their navies Dollars dolphins in their navies um um um uh mind detection looking for lost uh mind detection looking for lost uh mind detection looking for lost underwater equipment underwater equipment underwater equipment some rumors about like using them for some rumors about like using them for some rumors about like using them for weaponry weaponry weaponry which which I think Russia's like sure which which I think Russia's like sure which which I think Russia's like sure believe that and America's like no no we believe that and America's like no no we believe that and America's like no no we don't do that who knows but they started don't do that who knows but they started don't do that who knows but they started doing that in like the 60s 70s they doing that in like the 60s 70s they doing that in like the 60s 70s they started training these Dolphins because started training these Dolphins because started training these Dolphins because they were like oh dolphins have this they were like oh dolphins have this they were like oh dolphins have this amazing echolocation system that we amazing echolocation system that we amazing echolocation system that we can't replicate with machines and can't replicate with machines and can't replicate with machines and they're trainable so we're going to use they're trainable so we're going to use they're trainable so we're going to use them for all the stuff that we can't do them for all the stuff that we can't do them for all the stuff that we can't do with machines or by ourselves and with machines or by ourselves and with machines or by ourselves and they've tried to phase out the Dolphins they've tried to phase out the Dolphins they've tried to phase out the Dolphins I know the US has like invested a lot of I know the US has like invested a lot of I know the US has like invested a lot of money in trying to make robots do the money in trying to make robots do the money in trying to make robots do the Mind detection but like you were saying Mind detection but like you were saying Mind detection but like you were saying there are some things that the robots there are some things that the robots there are some things that the robots are good at and there's some things that are good at and there's some things that are good at and there's some things that biological creatures are better at so biological creatures are better at so biological creatures are better at so they still have the Dolphins so there's they still have the Dolphins so there's they still have the Dolphins so there's also pigeons of course oh yeah pigeons also pigeons of course oh yeah pigeons also pigeons of course oh yeah pigeons oh my gosh there's so many examples the oh my gosh there's so many examples the oh my gosh there's so many examples the pitch I mean pitch I mean pitch I mean the pigeons were the original hobby the pigeons were the original hobby the pigeons were the original hobby photography drone they also carried mail photography drone they also carried mail photography drone they also carried mail for thousands of years letting people for thousands of years letting people for thousands of years letting people communicate with each other in new ways communicate with each other in new ways communicate with each other in new ways so the thing that I like about the so the thing that I like about the so the thing that I like about the animal analogies they have all these animal analogies they have all these animal analogies they have all these physical abilities but also sensing physical abilities but also sensing physical abilities but also sensing abilities that we just we don't have and abilities that we just we don't have and abilities that we just we don't have and like that's that's just so useful and like that's that's just so useful and like that's that's just so useful and that's that's robots right robots have

that's that's robots right robots have that's that's robots right robots have physical abilities they can help us lift physical abilities they can help us lift physical abilities they can help us lift things or do things that we're not things or do things that we're not things or do things that we're not physically capable of they can also physically capable of they can also physically capable of they can also sense things sense things sense things it's just I just feel like I still feel it's just I just feel like I still feel it's just I just feel like I still feel like it's a really good analogy and like it's a really good analogy and like it's a really good analogy and really strong and it works because it's really strong and it works because it's really strong and it works because it's people are familiar with it people are familiar with it people are familiar with it what about companionship and when we what about companionship and when we what about companionship and when we start to think about like cats and dogs start to think about like cats and dogs start to think about like cats and dogs like pets that seem to serve no purpose like pets that seem to serve no purpose like pets that seem to serve no purpose whatsoever except the social connection whatsoever except the social connection whatsoever except the social connection yeah I mean this yeah I mean this yeah I mean this you were a thing you were a thing you were a thing at least in the United States like dogs at least in the United States like dogs at least in the United States like dogs used to have like they used to have a used to have like they used to have a used to have like they used to have a purpose they used to be guard dogs or purpose they used to be guard dogs or purpose they used to be guard dogs or they had some sort of function and then they had some sort of function and then they had some sort of function and then at some point they became just part of at some point they became just part of at some point they became just part of the family the family the family um and I um and I um and I it's it's so interesting how there's it's it's so interesting how there's it's it's so interesting how there's some animals that we've treated as some animals that we've treated as some animals that we've treated as workers some that we've treated as workers some that we've treated as workers some that we've treated as objects some that we eat and some that objects some that we eat and some that objects some that we eat and some that are parts of our families and that are parts of our families and that are parts of our families and that that's different across cultures and I'm that's different across cultures and I'm that's different across cultures and I'm convinced that we're going to see the convinced that we're going to see the convinced that we're going to see the same thing with robots same thing with robots same thing with robots um where people are going to develop um where people are going to develop um where people are going to develop strong emotional connections to certain strong emotional connections to certain strong emotional connections to certain robots that they relate to either robots that they relate to either robots that they relate to either culturally or or personally emotionally culturally or or personally emotionally culturally or or personally emotionally and then there's going to be other and then there's going to be other and then there's going to be other robots that we don't treat the same way robots that we don't treat the same way robots that we don't treat the same way I wonder does that have to do more with I wonder does that have to do more with I wonder does that have to do more with the culture and the people or the robot the culture and the people or the robot the culture and the people or the robot design is there interplay between the design is there interplay between the design is there interplay between the two like why did dogs and cats two like why did dogs and cats two like why did dogs and cats out compete out compete out compete ox and ox and ox and I don't know what else like farm animals

I don't know what else like farm animals I don't know what else like farm animals to to really get inside the home and get to to really get inside the home and get to to really get inside the home and get inside our hearts yeah I mean people inside our hearts yeah I mean people inside our hearts yeah I mean people point to the fact that dogs are very point to the fact that dogs are very point to the fact that dogs are very genetically flexible and genetically flexible and genetically flexible and um they can evolve much more quickly um they can evolve much more quickly um they can evolve much more quickly than other animals and so they than other animals and so they than other animals and so they evolutionary biologists think that dogs evolutionary biologists think that dogs evolutionary biologists think that dogs evolved to be more appealing to us and evolved to be more appealing to us and evolved to be more appealing to us and then once we learned how to breed them then once we learned how to breed them then once we learned how to breed them we started breeding them to be more we started breeding them to be more we started breeding them to be more appealing to us too which is not appealing to us too which is not appealing to us too which is not something that we necessarily would be something that we necessarily would be something that we necessarily would be able to do with cows although we've bred able to do with cows although we've bred able to do with cows although we've bred them to make more milk for us them to make more milk for us them to make more milk for us so but part of it is also culture I mean so but part of it is also culture I mean so but part of it is also culture I mean there are cultures where people eat dogs there are cultures where people eat dogs there are cultures where people eat dogs still today and then there's other still today and then there's other still today and then there's other cultures where we're like oh no that's cultures where we're like oh no that's cultures where we're like oh no that's terrible we would never do that and so I terrible we would never do that and so I terrible we would never do that and so I think there's a lot of different think there's a lot of different think there's a lot of different elements that play in I wonder if elements that play in I wonder if elements that play in I wonder if there's good because I understand dogs there's good because I understand dogs there's good because I understand dogs because they use their eyes they're able because they use their eyes they're able because they use their eyes they're able to communicate affection all those kinds to communicate affection all those kinds to communicate affection all those kinds of things it's really interesting what of things it's really interesting what of things it's really interesting what dogs do there's a whole conferences in dogs do there's a whole conferences in dogs do there's a whole conferences in dog Consciousness and cognition and all dog Consciousness and cognition and all dog Consciousness and cognition and all that kind of stuff now cats is a mystery that kind of stuff now cats is a mystery that kind of stuff now cats is a mystery to me to me to me because they seem to not give a shit because they seem to not give a shit because they seem to not give a shit about the human but they're warm and about the human but they're warm and about the human but they're warm and fluffy fluffy fluffy but they but they're also passive but they but they're also passive but they but they're also passive aggressive so they're at the same time aggressive so they're at the same time aggressive so they're at the same time they're like they're dismissive of of they're like they're dismissive of of they're like they're dismissive of of you in some sense I think some people you in some sense I think some people you in some sense I think some people like that some people like that about like that some people like that about like that some people like that about people people people yeah they want they want the push and yeah they want they want the push and yeah they want they want the push and pull over of a relationship they don't pull over of a relationship they don't pull over of a relationship they don't want loyalty or unconditional love that want loyalty or unconditional love that want loyalty or unconditional love that does that means they haven't earned it

does that means they haven't earned it does that means they haven't earned it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and maybe that says a lot more about the and maybe that says a lot more about the and maybe that says a lot more about the people than it does about the animal oh people than it does about the animal oh people than it does about the animal oh yeah we all need therapy yeah yeah we all need therapy yeah yeah we all need therapy yeah so I'm judging harshly to people that so I'm judging harshly to people that so I'm judging harshly to people that have cats or or the people that have have cats or or the people that have have cats or or the people that have dogs dogs dogs maybe the people that have dogs need are maybe the people that have dogs need are maybe the people that have dogs need are are desperate for attention and are desperate for attention and are desperate for attention and unconditional love and they're unable to unconditional love and they're unable to unconditional love and they're unable to to to to um to sort of struggle uh to earn to sort of struggle uh to earn meaningful connections meaningful connections meaningful connections um I don't know maybe people are talking um I don't know maybe people are talking um I don't know maybe people are talking about you and your robot pets in the about you and your robot pets in the about you and your robot pets in the same way same way same way yeah that's uh yeah that's uh yeah that's uh [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] it is kind of sad there's just robots it is kind of sad there's just robots it is kind of sad there's just robots everywhere but he's I mean I'm joking everywhere but he's I mean I'm joking everywhere but he's I mean I'm joking about it being said because I think it's about it being said because I think it's about it being said because I think it's kind of beautiful I think robots are kind of beautiful I think robots are kind of beautiful I think robots are uh beautiful in the same way that pets uh beautiful in the same way that pets uh beautiful in the same way that pets are even children in that like they are even children in that like they are even children in that like they capture some kind of magic of uh social capture some kind of magic of uh social capture some kind of magic of uh social robots robots robots they have the capacity to have the same they have the capacity to have the same they have the capacity to have the same kind of magic of connection kind of magic of connection kind of magic of connection um I don't know what that is like um um I don't know what that is like um um I don't know what that is like um when they're brought to life and they when they're brought to life and they when they're brought to life and they move around move around move around the way they make me feel I'm pretty the way they make me feel I'm pretty the way they make me feel I'm pretty convinced is as as you know convinced is as as you know convinced is as as you know they will make billions of people feel they will make billions of people feel they will make billions of people feel like I I don't think I'm like some weird like I I don't think I'm like some weird like I I don't think I'm like some weird robotics guy I'm not I mean you are but robotics guy I'm not I mean you are but robotics guy I'm not I mean you are but not in this way not in this way I mean I

not in this way not in this way I mean I not in this way not in this way I mean I just I can put on my like normal human just I can put on my like normal human just I can put on my like normal human hat and just see this oh this is like hat and just see this oh this is like hat and just see this oh this is like there's a lot of possibility there of there's a lot of possibility there of there's a lot of possibility there of something cool just like with dogs what something cool just like with dogs what something cool just like with dogs what is it why are we so into dogs or cats is it why are we so into dogs or cats is it why are we so into dogs or cats like it's like that it's way different like it's like that it's way different like it's like that it's way different than us than us than us it is it's like drooling all over the it is it's like drooling all over the it is it's like drooling all over the place with its tongue out and it's like place with its tongue out and it's like place with its tongue out and it's like what it's like a weird creature that what it's like a weird creature that what it's like a weird creature that used to be a wolf why are we into this used to be a wolf why are we into this used to be a wolf why are we into this thing well dogs can thing well dogs can thing well dogs can either Express or mimic a lot of either Express or mimic a lot of either Express or mimic a lot of emotions that we recognize emotions that we recognize emotions that we recognize um and I think that's a big thing like a um and I think that's a big thing like a um and I think that's a big thing like a lot of the magic of animals and robots lot of the magic of animals and robots lot of the magic of animals and robots is our own self-projection and the is our own self-projection and the is our own self-projection and the easier it is for us to easier it is for us to easier it is for us to see ourselves in something and project see ourselves in something and project see ourselves in something and project human emotions or qualities or traits human emotions or qualities or traits human emotions or qualities or traits onto it the more we'll relate to it and onto it the more we'll relate to it and onto it the more we'll relate to it and then you also have the movement of then you also have the movement of then you also have the movement of course I think that's also really that's course I think that's also really that's course I think that's also really that's why I'm so interested in physical robots why I'm so interested in physical robots why I'm so interested in physical robots because that's I think the visceral because that's I think the visceral because that's I think the visceral magic of them I think we're I mean magic of them I think we're I mean magic of them I think we're I mean there's there's research showing that there's there's research showing that there's there's research showing that we're probably biologically hardwired to we're probably biologically hardwired to we're probably biologically hardwired to respond to autonomous movement in our respond to autonomous movement in our respond to autonomous movement in our physical space because we've had to physical space because we've had to physical space because we've had to watch out for Predators or whatever the watch out for Predators or whatever the watch out for Predators or whatever the reason is reason is reason is um and so animals and robots are very um and so animals and robots are very um and so animals and robots are very appealing to us as these autonomously appealing to us as these autonomously appealing to us as these autonomously moving things that we view as agents moving things that we view as agents moving things that we view as agents instead of objects instead of objects instead of objects I mean I I love the moment which is I've I mean I I love the moment which is I've I mean I I love the moment which is I've been particularly working on which is been particularly working on which is been particularly working on which is when a robot like the cowboy hat uh is

when a robot like the cowboy hat uh is when a robot like the cowboy hat uh is doing its own thing and then doing its own thing and then doing its own thing and then uh it recognizes you I mean the way a uh it recognizes you I mean the way a uh it recognizes you I mean the way a dog does and it it looks like this and dog does and it it looks like this and dog does and it it looks like this and the the the the moment of recognition like you're the moment of recognition like you're the moment of recognition like you're walking say you work in an airport on walking say you work in an airport on walking say you work in an airport on the street the street the street and there's just you know hundreds of and there's just you know hundreds of and there's just you know hundreds of strangers but then you see somebody you strangers but then you see somebody you strangers but then you see somebody you know and that like know and that like know and that like where you wake up to like where you wake up to like where you wake up to like uh that excitement of seeing somebody uh that excitement of seeing somebody uh that excitement of seeing somebody you know and saying hello and all that you know and saying hello and all that you know and saying hello and all that kind of stuff that's a magical moment kind of stuff that's a magical moment kind of stuff that's a magical moment like uh I think especially with the dog like uh I think especially with the dog like uh I think especially with the dog it makes you feel noticed and heard and it makes you feel noticed and heard and it makes you feel noticed and heard and and loved like as somebody looks at you and loved like as somebody looks at you and loved like as somebody looks at you and recognizes you that that it matters and recognizes you that that it matters and recognizes you that that it matters that you exist yeah you feel seen yeah that you exist yeah you feel seen yeah that you exist yeah you feel seen yeah and that's a cool feeling and I I and that's a cool feeling and I I and that's a cool feeling and I I honestly think robots can get that honestly think robots can get that honestly think robots can get that feeling oh yeah totally currently Alexa feeling oh yeah totally currently Alexa feeling oh yeah totally currently Alexa I mean one of the downsides of these I mean one of the downsides of these I mean one of the downsides of these systems is they don't systems is they don't systems is they don't there's servants they like uh there's servants they like uh there's servants they like uh part of the you know they're trying to part of the you know they're trying to part of the you know they're trying to maintain privacy I suppose uh but maintain privacy I suppose uh but maintain privacy I suppose uh but I don't feel seen with Alexa I don't feel seen with Alexa I don't feel seen with Alexa right I think that's going to change I right I think that's going to change I right I think that's going to change I think you're right and I think that think you're right and I think that think you're right and I think that that's that's the game changing changing that's that's the game changing changing that's that's the game changing changing nature of things like these large nature of things like these large nature of things like these large language learning models and the fact language learning models and the fact language learning models and the fact that these companies are investing in that these companies are investing in that these companies are investing in embodied versions that move around of embodied versions that move around of embodied versions that move around of Alexa like Astro can I just say yeah I

Alexa like Astro can I just say yeah I Alexa like Astro can I just say yeah I haven't is that out is this I mean it's haven't is that out is this I mean it's haven't is that out is this I mean it's out you can't just like buy one out you can't just like buy one out you can't just like buy one commercially yet but you can apply for commercially yet but you can apply for commercially yet but you can apply for one yeah one yeah one yeah my gut says that these companies don't my gut says that these companies don't my gut says that these companies don't have the guts have the guts have the guts to do the personalization to do the personalization to do the personalization this goes to the because it's edgy is this goes to the because it's edgy is this goes to the because it's edgy is dangerous dangerous dangerous it's going to make a lot of people very it's going to make a lot of people very it's going to make a lot of people very angry angry angry like in a way that you know just imagine like in a way that you know just imagine like in a way that you know just imagine okay okay okay all right all right all right if you do the full landscape of human if you do the full landscape of human if you do the full landscape of human civilization just visualize the number civilization just visualize the number civilization just visualize the number of people that are going through of people that are going through of people that are going through breakups right now just the amount of breakups right now just the amount of breakups right now just the amount of really passionate Steven if we just look really passionate Steven if we just look really passionate Steven if we just look at teenagers at teenagers at teenagers the amount of deep heartbreak that's the amount of deep heartbreak that's the amount of deep heartbreak that's happening and like if if you're going to happening and like if if you're going to happening and like if if you're going to have Alexa have more of a personal have Alexa have more of a personal have Alexa have more of a personal connection with the human you're going connection with the human you're going connection with the human you're going to have humans that like have to have humans that like have to have humans that like have existential crises there's a lot of existential crises there's a lot of existential crises there's a lot of people that suffer from loneliness and people that suffer from loneliness and people that suffer from loneliness and depression and like you're now taking on depression and like you're now taking on depression and like you're now taking on the full responsibility of being a the full responsibility of being a the full responsibility of being a companion to the the the roller coaster companion to the the the roller coaster companion to the the the roller coaster of the human condition as a company like of the human condition as a company like of the human condition as a company like imagine PR and marketing people they're imagine PR and marketing people they're imagine PR and marketing people they're gonna freak out they don't have the guts gonna freak out they don't have the guts gonna freak out they don't have the guts it's going to have to come from somebody it's going to have to come from somebody it's going to have to come from somebody from a new Apple from those kinds of from a new Apple from those kinds of from a new Apple from those kinds of folks like it's a small startup and it folks like it's a small startup and it folks like it's a small startup and it might yeah like they're coming there's might yeah like they're coming there's might yeah like they're coming there's already a virtual therapist there's that already a virtual therapist there's that already a virtual therapist there's that replica app I haven't tried it but replica app I haven't tried it but replica app I haven't tried it but replicas like a spiritual companion like

replicas like a spiritual companion like replicas like a spiritual companion like it's coming and if big companies don't it's coming and if big companies don't it's coming and if big companies don't do it someone else will yeah I think the do it someone else will yeah I think the do it someone else will yeah I think the the future the next trillion dollar the future the next trillion dollar the future the next trillion dollar company will be those personalization company will be those personalization company will be those personalization because if you think because if you think because if you think um um um if you think about all the the AI we if you think about all the the AI we if you think about all the the AI we have around us all the the smartphone have around us all the the smartphone have around us all the the smartphone and so on there's very minimal and so on there's very minimal and so on there's very minimal personalization you don't think that's personalization you don't think that's personalization you don't think that's just because they weren't able just because they weren't able just because they weren't able yeah really I don't think they have the yeah really I don't think they have the yeah really I don't think they have the guts I mean it might be true but I have guts I mean it might be true but I have guts I mean it might be true but I have to wonder I mean Google is clearly gonna to wonder I mean Google is clearly gonna to wonder I mean Google is clearly gonna do something with the language I mean do something with the language I mean do something with the language I mean they don't have to that are you they don't have to that are you they don't have to that are you challenging them uh partially but not challenging them uh partially but not challenging them uh partially but not really because I know they're not going really because I know they're not going really because I know they're not going to do it I mean they don't have to it's to do it I mean they don't have to it's to do it I mean they don't have to it's bad for business in the short term I'm bad for business in the short term I'm bad for business in the short term I'm gonna be honest like maybe it's not such gonna be honest like maybe it's not such gonna be honest like maybe it's not such a bad thing if they don't just like roll a bad thing if they don't just like roll a bad thing if they don't just like roll this out quickly because I do think this out quickly because I do think this out quickly because I do think there are huge issues and and there are huge issues and and there are huge issues and and there's and not just issues with like there's and not just issues with like there's and not just issues with like the responsibility of like unforeseen the responsibility of like unforeseen the responsibility of like unforeseen effects on people but effects on people but effects on people but what's the business model and if you are what's the business model and if you are what's the business model and if you are using the business model that you've using the business model that you've using the business model that you've used in other domains then you're going used in other domains then you're going used in other domains then you're going to have to collect data from people to have to collect data from people to have to collect data from people which you will anyway to personalize the which you will anyway to personalize the which you will anyway to personalize the thing and you're going to be somehow thing and you're going to be somehow thing and you're going to be somehow monetizing the data or you're going to monetizing the data or you're going to monetizing the data or you're going to be doing some like ad model it just it be doing some like ad model it just it be doing some like ad model it just it seems like now we're suddenly getting seems like now we're suddenly getting seems like now we're suddenly getting into the realm of like severe consumer into the realm of like severe consumer into the realm of like severe consumer protection issues and protection issues and protection issues and I'm I'm really worried about that I I

I'm I'm really worried about that I I I'm I'm really worried about that I I see massive potential for this see massive potential for this see massive potential for this technology to be used in a way that's technology to be used in a way that's technology to be used in a way that's not for the public good and not not for the public good and not not for the public good and not I mean that's in in an individual user's I mean that's in in an individual user's I mean that's in in an individual user's interest maybe but not in society's interest maybe but not in society's interest maybe but not in society's interest interest interest yes yeah I think yes yeah I think yes yeah I think I think that kind of personalization I think that kind of personalization I think that kind of personalization should be should be should be like redefine how we treat data I think like redefine how we treat data I think like redefine how we treat data I think you should own all the data your phone you should own all the data your phone you should own all the data your phone knows about you knows about you knows about you like and be able to delete it with a like and be able to delete it with a like and be able to delete it with a single click and walk away single click and walk away single click and walk away and that data cannot be monetized or and that data cannot be monetized or and that data cannot be monetized or used or shared anywhere without your used or shared anywhere without your used or shared anywhere without your permission I think that's the only way permission I think that's the only way permission I think that's the only way people will trust you to give to if for people will trust you to give to if for people will trust you to give to if for you to use that data but then how are you to use that data but then how are you to use that data but then how are companies gonna I mean a lot of these companies gonna I mean a lot of these companies gonna I mean a lot of these applications rely on massive throws of applications rely on massive throws of applications rely on massive throws of data data data to train the AI system right so you have to train the AI system right so you have to train the AI system right so you have to to to um opt-in constantly and opt-in not in um opt-in constantly and opt-in not in um opt-in constantly and opt-in not in some legal I agree but obvious like show some legal I agree but obvious like show some legal I agree but obvious like show exactly like um in the way exactly like um in the way exactly like um in the way uh I opt in to tell you a secret uh I opt in to tell you a secret uh I opt in to tell you a secret like we understand like that like I have like we understand like that like I have like we understand like that like I have to have to choose like how well do I to have to choose like how well do I to have to choose like how well do I know you and then I say like don't tell know you and then I say like don't tell know you and then I say like don't tell this to anyone and then I have to judge how leaky that and then I have to judge how leaky that uh like how good you are I keep your uh like how good you are I keep your uh like how good you are I keep your secrets in that same way like it's very secrets in that same way like it's very secrets in that same way like it's very transparent in uh which data you're

transparent in uh which data you're transparent in uh which data you're allowed to use for which purposes that's allowed to use for which purposes that's allowed to use for which purposes that's what people are saying is the solution what people are saying is the solution what people are saying is the solution and I think that works to some extent and I think that works to some extent and I think that works to some extent having transparency having people having transparency having people having transparency having people consent consent consent I think it breaks down at the point at I think it breaks down at the point at I think it breaks down at the point at which which which have you seen this happen on social have you seen this happen on social have you seen this happen on social media too like people are willingly media too like people are willingly media too like people are willingly giving up their data because they're giving up their data because they're giving up their data because they're getting a functionality from that and getting a functionality from that and getting a functionality from that and then the harm that that causes is on a then the harm that that causes is on a then the harm that that causes is on a like maybe just someone else and not to like maybe just someone else and not to like maybe just someone else and not to them personally so I don't think people them personally so I don't think people them personally so I don't think people are given their data they're not being are given their data they're not being are given their data they're not being asked asked asked like but if if you were consensual if like but if if you were consensual if like but if if you were consensual if you were like you were like you were like tell me a secret about yourself and I'll tell me a secret about yourself and I'll tell me a secret about yourself and I'll give you a hundred dollars I'd tell you give you a hundred dollars I'd tell you give you a hundred dollars I'd tell you a secret no not a hundred dollars uh a secret no not a hundred dollars uh a secret no not a hundred dollars uh first of all you wouldn't uh you first of all you wouldn't uh you first of all you wouldn't uh you wouldn't trust like why are you giving wouldn't trust like why are you giving wouldn't trust like why are you giving me a hundred dollars it's a bad example me a hundred dollars it's a bad example me a hundred dollars it's a bad example but but like I I need but but like I I need but but like I I need um I would ask for um I would ask for um I would ask for your specific like fashion your specific like fashion your specific like fashion uh interest into in order to give uh interest into in order to give uh interest into in order to give recommendations to you for shopping and recommendations to you for shopping and recommendations to you for shopping and I'd be very clear for that you could I'd be very clear for that you could I'd be very clear for that you could disable that you can uh delete that but disable that you can uh delete that but disable that you can uh delete that but but then you can be have a deep but then you can be have a deep but then you can be have a deep meaningful Rich connection with the meaningful Rich connection with the meaningful Rich connection with the system about what you think you look fat system about what you think you look fat system about what you think you look fat in what you look great in what like the in what you look great in what like the in what you look great in what like the full history of all the things you've full history of all the things you've full history of all the things you've worn whether you worn whether you worn whether you uh regret to Justin Bieber enjoy the uh regret to Justin Bieber enjoy the uh regret to Justin Bieber enjoy the Justin Bieber shirt all of that Justin Bieber shirt all of that Justin Bieber shirt all of that information that's mostly private to information that's mostly private to information that's mostly private to even you not even your loved ones that a

even you not even your loved ones that a even you not even your loved ones that a system should have that because then a system should have that because then a system should have that because then a system if you trust it to keep control system if you trust it to keep control system if you trust it to keep control of that data that you own you can walk of that data that you own you can walk of that data that you own you can walk away with that system could tell you a away with that system could tell you a away with that system could tell you a damn good thing to wear damn good thing to wear damn good thing to wear it could it could it could and the harm that I'm concerned about is and the harm that I'm concerned about is and the harm that I'm concerned about is not that the system is going to then not that the system is going to then not that the system is going to then suggest a dress for me that is based on suggest a dress for me that is based on suggest a dress for me that is based on my preferences so I I went to this my preferences so I I went to this my preferences so I I went to this conference once where I was talking to conference once where I was talking to conference once where I was talking to the people who do the analytics in like the people who do the analytics in like the people who do the analytics in like the big ad companies and like literally the big ad companies and like literally the big ad companies and like literally a woman there was like I can ask you a woman there was like I can ask you a woman there was like I can ask you three totally unrelated questions and three totally unrelated questions and three totally unrelated questions and tell you what menstrual product you use tell you what menstrual product you use tell you what menstrual product you use and so what they do is they aggregate and so what they do is they aggregate and so what they do is they aggregate the data and they map out different the data and they map out different the data and they map out different personalities and different people and personalities and different people and personalities and different people and demographics and then they have a lot of demographics and then they have a lot of demographics and then they have a lot of power and control to Market to people so power and control to Market to people so power and control to Market to people so like I might not be sharing my data with like I might not be sharing my data with like I might not be sharing my data with any of the systems because I'm like I'm any of the systems because I'm like I'm any of the systems because I'm like I'm on Twitter I know that this is bad on Twitter I know that this is bad on Twitter I know that this is bad other people might be sharing data that other people might be sharing data that other people might be sharing data that can be used against me like it's I think can be used against me like it's I think can be used against me like it's I think it's it's way more complex than just it's it's way more complex than just it's it's way more complex than just I share a piece of personal information I share a piece of personal information I share a piece of personal information and it gets used against me I think that and it gets used against me I think that and it gets used against me I think that at a more systemic level at a more systemic level at a more systemic level and then it's always you know vulnerable and then it's always you know vulnerable and then it's always you know vulnerable populations that are targeted by this populations that are targeted by this populations that are targeted by this um you know low-income people being um you know low-income people being um you know low-income people being targeted for scammy loans or targeted for scammy loans or targeted for scammy loans or I don't know like I could get targeted I don't know like I could get targeted I don't know like I could get targeted like someone like someone like someone not me because I have someone who not me because I have someone who not me because I have someone who doesn't have kids yet and is my age doesn't have kids yet and is my age doesn't have kids yet and is my age could get targeted for like freezing

could get targeted for like freezing could get targeted for like freezing their eggs and there's all these ways their eggs and there's all these ways their eggs and there's all these ways that you can manipulate people where that you can manipulate people where that you can manipulate people where it's not really clear that that came it's not really clear that that came it's not really clear that that came from from from that person's that person's that person's data it came from all of us all of us data it came from all of us all of us data it came from all of us all of us opting into this but there there's a opting into this but there there's a opting into this but there there's a bunch of sneaky decisions along the way bunch of sneaky decisions along the way bunch of sneaky decisions along the way that could be avoided if there's that could be avoided if there's that could be avoided if there's transparency so that so one of the ways transparency so that so one of the ways transparency so that so one of the ways that goes wrong if you share that data that goes wrong if you share that data that goes wrong if you share that data with too many ad Networks with too many ad Networks with too many ad Networks don't run your own ad Network don't don't run your own ad Network don't don't run your own ad Network don't share with anybody share with anybody share with anybody okay and that's data could regulate you okay and that's data could regulate you okay and that's data could regulate you it belongs to just you and all the ways it belongs to just you and all the ways it belongs to just you and all the ways you allow the company to use it the you allow the company to use it the you allow the company to use it the default is in no way at all default is in no way at all default is in no way at all and you're consciously constantly saying and you're consciously constantly saying and you're consciously constantly saying exactly how to use it and uh and also it exactly how to use it and uh and also it exactly how to use it and uh and also it has to do with the recommender system has to do with the recommender system has to do with the recommender system itself from the company which is um freezing your eggs if that doesn't um freezing your eggs if that doesn't make you happy if that idea doesn't make make you happy if that idea doesn't make make you happy if that idea doesn't make you happy then the system shouldn't you happy then the system shouldn't you happy then the system shouldn't recommend it and should very be very recommend it and should very be very recommend it and should very be very good at Learning good at Learning good at Learning so not the kind of things that the so not the kind of things that the so not the kind of things that the category of people it thinks you belong category of people it thinks you belong category of people it thinks you belong to would do but more you specifically to would do but more you specifically to would do but more you specifically what makes you happy what is helping you what makes you happy what is helping you what makes you happy what is helping you grow but you're assuming that people's grow but you're assuming that people's grow but you're assuming that people's preferences and like what makes them preferences and like what makes them preferences and like what makes them happy is static whereas when we're happy is static whereas when we're happy is static whereas when we're talking before about how a company like

talking before about how a company like talking before about how a company like Apple Apple Apple can tell people what they want and they can tell people what they want and they can tell people what they want and they will start to want it that's the thing will start to want it that's the thing will start to want it that's the thing that I'm more concerned about yeah that that I'm more concerned about yeah that that I'm more concerned about yeah that is a huge problem it's not just is a huge problem it's not just is a huge problem it's not just listening to people but manipulating listening to people but manipulating listening to people but manipulating them into wanting something and that's them into wanting something and that's them into wanting something and that's like we have a long history of using like we have a long history of using like we have a long history of using technology for that purpose like the technology for that purpose like the technology for that purpose like the persuasive design in casinos to get persuasive design in casinos to get persuasive design in casinos to get people to gamble more or like people to gamble more or like people to gamble more or like it's just it's just it's just I'm I'm I'm the other thing that I'm worried about the other thing that I'm worried about the other thing that I'm worried about is as we have more social technology is as we have more social technology is as we have more social technology suddenly you have this on a new level suddenly you have this on a new level suddenly you have this on a new level like if you look at the influencer like if you look at the influencer like if you look at the influencer marketing that happens online now marketing that happens online now marketing that happens online now what's the influencer so like on what's the influencer so like on what's the influencer so like on Instagram there will be some like Instagram there will be some like Instagram there will be some like person who has a bunch of followers yeah person who has a bunch of followers yeah person who has a bunch of followers yeah and then a brand will like hire them to and then a brand will like hire them to and then a brand will like hire them to promote some product and it's above promote some product and it's above promote some product and it's above board they disclose like I'm this is an board they disclose like I'm this is an board they disclose like I'm this is an ad that I'm promoting but they have so ad that I'm promoting but they have so ad that I'm promoting but they have so many young followers who like deeply many young followers who like deeply many young followers who like deeply admire and trust them this I mean this admire and trust them this I mean this admire and trust them this I mean this must work for you too don't you have must work for you too don't you have must work for you too don't you have like ads on the podcast like people like ads on the podcast like people like ads on the podcast like people trust magic spoon cereal low carb yes if trust magic spoon cereal low carb yes if trust magic spoon cereal low carb yes if you say that like I guarantee you some you say that like I guarantee you some you say that like I guarantee you some people will buy that just because even people will buy that just because even people will buy that just because even though they know that you're being paid though they know that you're being paid though they know that you're being paid they trust you yeah it's different with they trust you yeah it's different with they trust you yeah it's different with podcasts because uh well my particular podcasts because uh well my particular podcasts because uh well my particular situation but it's true for a lot of situation but it's true for a lot of situation but it's true for a lot of pockets especially big ones is you know pockets especially big ones is you know pockets especially big ones is you know I have I have I have 10 times more sponsors that want to be 10 times more sponsors that want to be 10 times more sponsors that want to be sponsors than than I have so you get to

sponsors than than I have so you get to sponsors than than I have so you get to select the ones that you actually want select the ones that you actually want select the ones that you actually want to support and so like you end up using to support and so like you end up using to support and so like you end up using it and then you're able to actually like it and then you're able to actually like it and then you're able to actually like there's no incentive to like there's no incentive to like there's no incentive to like um um um show for anybody sure and that's why show for anybody sure and that's why show for anybody sure and that's why it's fine when it's still human it's fine when it's still human it's fine when it's still human influencers right now if you're a bot influencers right now if you're a bot influencers right now if you're a bot you're not gonna just discriminate you're not gonna just discriminate you're not gonna just discriminate you're not gonna be like oh well you're not gonna be like oh well you're not gonna be like oh well this product is good for people you this product is good for people you this product is good for people you think they'll be like Bots essentially think they'll be like Bots essentially think they'll be like Bots essentially with millions of followers there already with millions of followers there already with millions of followers there already are there are virtual influencers in are there are virtual influencers in are there are virtual influencers in South Korea yeah who show products and South Korea yeah who show products and South Korea yeah who show products and and like that's just the tip of the and like that's just the tip of the and like that's just the tip of the iceberg because that's still very iceberg because that's still very iceberg because that's still very primitive now with the new image primitive now with the new image primitive now with the new image generation and the language learning generation and the language learning generation and the language learning models and like so we're starting to do models and like so we're starting to do models and like so we're starting to do some research around kids some research around kids some research around kids um and like young adults because um and like young adults because um and like young adults because a lot of the research on like what's a lot of the research on like what's a lot of the research on like what's okay to advertise to kids and what is okay to advertise to kids and what is okay to advertise to kids and what is too manipulative has to do with too manipulative has to do with too manipulative has to do with television ads back in the day where television ads back in the day where television ads back in the day where like a kid who's 12 understands oh like a kid who's 12 understands oh like a kid who's 12 understands oh that's an advertisement I can that's an advertisement I can that's an advertisement I can distinguish that from entertainment I distinguish that from entertainment I distinguish that from entertainment I know it's trying to sell me something know it's trying to sell me something know it's trying to sell me something now it's getting really really murky now it's getting really really murky now it's getting really really murky with influencers and then if you have with influencers and then if you have with influencers and then if you have like a bot that that a kid has developed like a bot that that a kid has developed like a bot that that a kid has developed a relationship with is it okay to market a relationship with is it okay to market a relationship with is it okay to market products through that or not like you're products through that or not like you're products through that or not like you're getting into all these consumer getting into all these consumer getting into all these consumer protection issues because protection issues because protection issues because you're developing a trusted relationship you're developing a trusted relationship you're developing a trusted relationship with a social entity with a social entity with a social entity but it's and and so and so now it's like

but it's and and so and so now it's like but it's and and so and so now it's like personalized it's scalable it's personalized it's scalable it's personalized it's scalable it's automated and it has it it can automated and it has it it can automated and it has it it can so some of the research showing that so some of the research showing that so some of the research showing that kids are already very confused about kids are already very confused about kids are already very confused about like the incentives of the company like the incentives of the company like the incentives of the company versus what the robot is doing versus what the robot is doing versus what the robot is doing meaning they're so okay they're not deeply understanding so okay they're not deeply understanding the incentives of the of the of the the incentives of the of the of the the incentives of the of the of the system well yeah so like kids who are system well yeah so like kids who are system well yeah so like kids who are old enough to understand this is a old enough to understand this is a old enough to understand this is a television advertisement is trying to television advertisement is trying to television advertisement is trying to advertise to me I might still decide I advertise to me I might still decide I advertise to me I might still decide I want this product but they understand want this product but they understand want this product but they understand what's going on so there's some what's going on so there's some what's going on so there's some transparency there transparency there transparency there that age child so that age child so that age child so um Daniela de Paola Anastasia ostrovsky um Daniela de Paola Anastasia ostrovsky um Daniela de Paola Anastasia ostrovsky and I advised on this project they did and I advised on this project they did and I advised on this project they did this um they they asked kids who had this um they they asked kids who had this um they they asked kids who had interacted with social robots interacted with social robots interacted with social robots whether they would like a policy that whether they would like a policy that whether they would like a policy that allows robots to Market to people allows robots to Market to people allows robots to Market to people through casual conversation or whether through casual conversation or whether through casual conversation or whether they would prefer that it has to be they would prefer that it has to be they would prefer that it has to be transparent that it's like an ad coming transparent that it's like an ad coming transparent that it's like an ad coming from a company and the majority said from a company and the majority said from a company and the majority said they preferred the casual conversation they preferred the casual conversation they preferred the casual conversation and when asked why there was a lot of and when asked why there was a lot of and when asked why there was a lot of confusion about they were like well the confusion about they were like well the confusion about they were like well the robot knows me better than the company robot knows me better than the company robot knows me better than the company does so the robot's only going to Market does so the robot's only going to Market does so the robot's only going to Market things that I like things that I like things that I like and so they don't really they're not and so they don't really they're not and so they don't really they're not connecting the fact that the robot is an connecting the fact that the robot is an connecting the fact that the robot is an agent of the company they're viewing it agent of the company they're viewing it agent of the company they're viewing it as something separate and I think that as something separate and I think that as something separate and I think that even happens subconsciously with even happens subconsciously with even happens subconsciously with grown-ups when it comes to robots and grown-ups when it comes to robots and grown-ups when it comes to robots and artificial agents and it will like this

artificial agents and it will like this artificial agents and it will like this blank guy at Google sorry I'm going on blank guy at Google sorry I'm going on blank guy at Google sorry I'm going on and on but like his main concern was and on but like his main concern was and on but like his main concern was that Google owned this sentient agent that Google owned this sentient agent that Google owned this sentient agent and that it was being mistreated his and that it was being mistreated his and that it was being mistreated his concern was not that the agent was going concern was not that the agent was going concern was not that the agent was going to mistreat people to mistreat people to mistreat people so I think we're going to see a lot of so I think we're going to see a lot of so I think we're going to see a lot of this this this yeah but shitty companies will do that I yeah but shitty companies will do that I yeah but shitty companies will do that I think ultimately that confusion should think ultimately that confusion should think ultimately that confusion should be alleviated by the robot should be alleviated by the robot should be alleviated by the robot should actually know you better and should not actually know you better and should not actually know you better and should not have any control from the company have any control from the company have any control from the company but what's the business model for that but what's the business model for that but what's the business model for that it's if you use the robot to buy first it's if you use the robot to buy first it's if you use the robot to buy first of all the robot should probably cost of all the robot should probably cost of all the robot should probably cost money money money should what cost money like the way should what cost money like the way should what cost money like the way Windows operating system does I see it Windows operating system does I see it Windows operating system does I see it more like an operating system than more like an operating system than more like an operating system than um like this thing um like this thing um like this thing is your window no pun intended into the is your window no pun intended into the is your window no pun intended into the into the world into the world into the world so it's helping you it's like a personal so it's helping you it's like a personal so it's helping you it's like a personal assistant assistant assistant right and so that should cost money you right and so that should cost money you right and so that should cost money you should you know whatever it is 10 bucks should you know whatever it is 10 bucks should you know whatever it is 10 bucks 20 bucks 20 bucks 20 bucks like that's the thing that makes your like that's the thing that makes your like that's the thing that makes your life significantly better this idea that life significantly better this idea that life significantly better this idea that everything should be free is is like it everything should be free is is like it everything should be free is is like it should actually help educate you you should actually help educate you you should actually help educate you you should talk shit about all the other should talk shit about all the other should talk shit about all the other companies that do stuff for free but uh companies that do stuff for free but uh companies that do stuff for free but uh but also yeah in terms of if you but also yeah in terms of if you but also yeah in terms of if you purchase stuff based on its purchase stuff based on its purchase stuff based on its recommendation it gets money recommendation it gets money recommendation it gets money that so it's it's kind of AD driven but that so it's it's kind of AD driven but that so it's it's kind of AD driven but it's not ads it's like um

um um it's not controlled like no no external it's not controlled like no no external it's not controlled like no no external entities can control it entities can control it entities can control it to try to manipulate to want a thing to try to manipulate to want a thing to try to manipulate to want a thing that would be amazing it's actually that would be amazing it's actually that would be amazing it's actually trying to discover what you want so it's trying to discover what you want so it's trying to discover what you want so it's not allowed to have any influence no not allowed to have any influence no not allowed to have any influence no promoted ad no anything so that's promoted ad no anything so that's promoted ad no anything so that's finding I don't know the uh the the finding I don't know the uh the the finding I don't know the uh the the thing that would actually make you happy thing that would actually make you happy thing that would actually make you happy that's the only thing it cares about that's the only thing it cares about that's the only thing it cares about I I think I I think I I think I think companies like this can win out I think companies like this can win out I think companies like this can win out yes I think eventually once people yes I think eventually once people yes I think eventually once people understand the value understand the value understand the value of the robot even just like I think that of the robot even just like I think that of the robot even just like I think that robots would be valuable to people even robots would be valuable to people even robots would be valuable to people even if they're not if they're not if they're not marketing something or helping with like marketing something or helping with like marketing something or helping with like preferences or anything like just a preferences or anything like just a preferences or anything like just a simple the same thing as a pet like a simple the same thing as a pet like a simple the same thing as a pet like a dog that has no function other than dog that has no function other than dog that has no function other than being a member of your family I think being a member of your family I think being a member of your family I think robots could really be that and people robots could really be that and people robots could really be that and people would pay for that I don't think the would pay for that I don't think the would pay for that I don't think the market realizes that yet market realizes that yet market realizes that yet and so my concern is that companies are and so my concern is that companies are and so my concern is that companies are not going to go in that direction at not going to go in that direction at not going to go in that direction at least not yet of making like this least not yet of making like this least not yet of making like this contained thing that you bought it seems contained thing that you bought it seems contained thing that you bought it seems almost old-fashioned right to have a almost old-fashioned right to have a almost old-fashioned right to have a disconnected disconnected disconnected uh object that you buy that you're not uh object that you buy that you're not uh object that you buy that you're not like paying a subscription for it's not like paying a subscription for it's not like paying a subscription for it's not like controlled by one of the big like controlled by one of the big like controlled by one of the big corporations but that's the corporations but that's the corporations but that's the old-fashioned things that people uh old-fashioned things that people uh old-fashioned things that people uh uh yearn for because uh yearn for because uh yearn for because I think is very popular now and people

I think is very popular now and people I think is very popular now and people understand the negative effects of understand the negative effects of understand the negative effects of social media the negative effects of the social media the negative effects of the social media the negative effects of the data being used in all these kinds of data being used in all these kinds of data being used in all these kinds of ways I think I think we're just waking ways I think I think we're just waking ways I think I think we're just waking up to the realization we tried but we're up to the realization we tried but we're up to the realization we tried but we're like baby deer finding our legs in this like baby deer finding our legs in this like baby deer finding our legs in this new world of social media of AD driven new world of social media of AD driven new world of social media of AD driven companies and realizing okay this has to companies and realizing okay this has to companies and realizing okay this has to be done somehow different I mean that be done somehow different I mean that be done somehow different I mean that like like one of the most popular like like one of the most popular like like one of the most popular Notions at least the United States and Notions at least the United States and Notions at least the United States and social media is evil and it's doing bad social media is evil and it's doing bad social media is evil and it's doing bad it's it's doing bad by us it's not like it's it's doing bad by us it's not like it's it's doing bad by us it's not like it's totally tricked us into believing it's totally tricked us into believing it's totally tricked us into believing that is good for us I think everybody that is good for us I think everybody that is good for us I think everybody knows it's bad for us and so like knows it's bad for us and so like knows it's bad for us and so like there's a hunger for our other ideas all there's a hunger for our other ideas all there's a hunger for our other ideas all right it's time for us to assist that right it's time for us to assist that right it's time for us to assist that company I think so let's do it let's do company I think so let's do it let's do company I think so let's do it let's do it I think let's go hopefully no one it I think let's go hopefully no one it I think let's go hopefully no one listens to this and steals the idea listens to this and steals the idea listens to this and steals the idea there's no see that's the other thing I there's no see that's the other thing I there's no see that's the other thing I think I'm a big person on think I'm a big person on think I'm a big person on um um um executions what matters I mean oh yeah executions what matters I mean oh yeah executions what matters I mean oh yeah it's like ideas are kind of true the it's like ideas are kind of true the it's like ideas are kind of true the social robotics is a good example that social robotics is a good example that social robotics is a good example that there's been so many amazing companies there's been so many amazing companies there's been so many amazing companies that went out of business that went out of business that went out of business I mean to me it's obvious like it's I mean to me it's obvious like it's I mean to me it's obvious like it's obvious that obvious that obvious that there will be a robotics company there will be a robotics company there will be a robotics company that puts a social robot in the home of that puts a social robot in the home of that puts a social robot in the home of billions of homes billions of homes billions of homes yeah and it'll be a companion yeah and it'll be a companion yeah and it'll be a companion okay there you go you can steal that okay there you go you can steal that okay there you go you can steal that idea do it okay for you idea do it okay for you idea do it okay for you what about Elon musk's humanoid what about Elon musk's humanoid what about Elon musk's humanoid is he gonna execute on that

is he gonna execute on that is he gonna execute on that there might be a lot to say so for there might be a lot to say so for there might be a lot to say so for people who are not aware there's an people who are not aware there's an people who are not aware there's an Optimus Tesla's Optimus robot that's um Optimus Tesla's Optimus robot that's um Optimus Tesla's Optimus robot that's um I guess the stated reason for that robot I guess the stated reason for that robot I guess the stated reason for that robot is a humanoid robot in the factory is a humanoid robot in the factory is a humanoid robot in the factory that's able to automate some of the that's able to automate some of the that's able to automate some of the tasks that humans are currently doing tasks that humans are currently doing tasks that humans are currently doing and the reason you want to do it's the and the reason you want to do it's the and the reason you want to do it's the second reason you mentioned the reason second reason you mentioned the reason second reason you mentioned the reason you want to do a humanoid robot because you want to do a humanoid robot because you want to do a humanoid robot because the factory is built for the certain the factory is built for the certain the factory is built for the certain tasks that are tasks that are tasks that are um designed for humans so it's hard to um designed for humans so it's hard to um designed for humans so it's hard to automate with the any other form factor automate with the any other form factor automate with the any other form factor than a humanoid and then the other than a humanoid and then the other than a humanoid and then the other reason is because so much effort has reason is because so much effort has reason is because so much effort has been put into this giant data engine been put into this giant data engine been put into this giant data engine machine of of perception that's inside machine of of perception that's inside machine of of perception that's inside Tesla autopilot that's seemingly at Tesla autopilot that's seemingly at Tesla autopilot that's seemingly at least the machine if not the data is least the machine if not the data is least the machine if not the data is transferable to the factory setting to transferable to the factory setting to transferable to the factory setting to any setting yeah he said he would do any setting yeah he said he would do any setting yeah he said he would do anything that's boring to to us yeah anything that's boring to to us yeah anything that's boring to to us yeah yeah yeah yeah the interesting thing about that is the interesting thing about that is the interesting thing about that is there's there's there's no interest no interest no interest and no discussion about the social and no discussion about the social and no discussion about the social aspect aspect aspect Mike I I talked to him on Mike and off Mike I I talked to him on Mike and off Mike I I talked to him on Mike and off Mike about it quite a bit and Mike about it quite a bit and Mike about it quite a bit and he he he there's not a discussion about like to there's not a discussion about like to there's not a discussion about like to me it's obvious if a thing like that me it's obvious if a thing like that me it's obvious if a thing like that works at all at all works at all at all works at all at all in fact in fact in fact it has to work really well in a factory it has to work really well in a factory it has to work really well in a factory if it works kind of shitty it's much

if it works kind of shitty it's much if it works kind of shitty it's much more useful in the home more useful in the home more useful in the home that's true because we're much this that's true because we're much this that's true because we're much this we're I I think being shitty as stuff is we're I I think being shitty as stuff is we're I I think being shitty as stuff is kind of uh kind of uh kind of uh what makes relationships great what makes relationships great what makes relationships great like you want to be flawed and be able like you want to be flawed and be able like you want to be flawed and be able to communicate your flaws and be to communicate your flaws and be to communicate your flaws and be unpredictable in certain ways like if unpredictable in certain ways like if unpredictable in certain ways like if you fell over every once in a while for you fell over every once in a while for you fell over every once in a while for no reason whatsoever I think that's no reason whatsoever I think that's no reason whatsoever I think that's essential for for like very Charming essential for for like very Charming essential for for like very Charming well it's Charming but also concerning well it's Charming but also concerning well it's Charming but also concerning and also like uh like like are you okay and also like uh like like are you okay and also like uh like like are you okay I mean it's both hilarious it's whenever I mean it's both hilarious it's whenever I mean it's both hilarious it's whenever somebody you love like falls down the somebody you love like falls down the somebody you love like falls down the stairs it was both hilarious and stairs it was both hilarious and stairs it was both hilarious and concerning it's some some dance between concerning it's some some dance between concerning it's some some dance between the two and I think that's essential for the two and I think that's essential for the two and I think that's essential for like like like um you almost want to engineer that in um you almost want to engineer that in um you almost want to engineer that in uh except you don't have to because of uh except you don't have to because of uh except you don't have to because of Robotics in the physical Space is really Robotics in the physical Space is really Robotics in the physical Space is really difficult so difficult so difficult so um I think I've learned to not discount the I think I've learned to not discount the the efforts that Elon does there's a few the efforts that Elon does there's a few the efforts that Elon does there's a few things that are really interesting there things that are really interesting there things that are really interesting there one one one because he's taken extremely seriously because he's taken extremely seriously because he's taken extremely seriously what I like is the humanoid form the what I like is the humanoid form the what I like is the humanoid form the cost of building a robot I talked to Jim cost of building a robot I talked to Jim cost of building a robot I talked to Jim Keller offline about this a lot and Keller offline about this a lot and Keller offline about this a lot and currently human robots cost a lot of currently human robots cost a lot of currently human robots cost a lot of money money money and the way they're thinking about it and the way they're thinking about it and the way they're thinking about it now they're not talking about all the now they're not talking about all the now they're not talking about all the social robotic stuff that you and I care social robotic stuff that you and I care social robotic stuff that you and I care about uh they are thinking how can we

about uh they are thinking how can we about uh they are thinking how can we manufacture this thing manufacture this thing manufacture this thing cheaply and do it like well and the kind cheaply and do it like well and the kind cheaply and do it like well and the kind of discussions they're having is really of discussions they're having is really of discussions they're having is really great engineering it's like it's a bit great engineering it's like it's a bit great engineering it's like it's a bit it's like first principles question of it's like first principles question of it's like first principles question of like why is this cost so much like like why is this cost so much like like why is this cost so much like what's the cheap way how why can't we what's the cheap way how why can't we what's the cheap way how why can't we build and there's not a good answer build and there's not a good answer build and there's not a good answer uh why can't we build this humanoid form uh why can't we build this humanoid form uh why can't we build this humanoid form for under a thousand dollars for under a thousand dollars for under a thousand dollars and like I've I've and like I've I've and like I've I've sat and had these conversations there's sat and had these conversations there's sat and had these conversations there's no reason it's uh I think the reason no reason it's uh I think the reason no reason it's uh I think the reason they've been so expensive is because they've been so expensive is because they've been so expensive is because um um um they were focused on trying to they were focused on trying to they were focused on trying to they weren't focused on doing the mass they weren't focused on doing the mass they weren't focused on doing the mass manufacture they were people are focused manufacture they were people are focused manufacture they were people are focused on getting a thing that's on getting a thing that's on getting a thing that's um I don't know I don't know exactly um I don't know I don't know exactly um I don't know I don't know exactly what the reasoning is but it's the same what the reasoning is but it's the same what the reasoning is but it's the same like waymo it's like let's let's build a like waymo it's like let's let's build a like waymo it's like let's let's build a million dollar car in the beginning million dollar car in the beginning million dollar car in the beginning or like multi-million dollar car let's or like multi-million dollar car let's or like multi-million dollar car let's try to solve that problem try to solve that problem try to solve that problem the the way Elon the way Jim Keller the the the way Elon the way Jim Keller the the the way Elon the way Jim Keller the way some of those folks are thinking is way some of those folks are thinking is way some of those folks are thinking is that's like at the same time try to that's like at the same time try to that's like at the same time try to actually build a system that's cheap not actually build a system that's cheap not actually build a system that's cheap not crappy but cheap unless from first crappy but cheap unless from first crappy but cheap unless from first principles what is the minimum amount of principles what is the minimum amount of principles what is the minimum amount of uh degrees of freedom we need what are uh degrees of freedom we need what are uh degrees of freedom we need what are the joints where's the control set like the joints where's the control set like the joints where's the control set like how many how do we act like where are how many how do we act like where are how many how do we act like where are the activators uh what's the way to the activators uh what's the way to the activators uh what's the way to power this in the lowest cost way power this in the lowest cost way power this in the lowest cost way possible but also in a way that's like possible but also in a way that's like possible but also in a way that's like actually works how do we make the whole actually works how do we make the whole actually works how do we make the whole thing not part of the components where thing not part of the components where thing not part of the components where there's a supply chain you have to have

there's a supply chain you have to have there's a supply chain you have to have all these different parts that have to all these different parts that have to all these different parts that have to feed us so do it all from scratch and do feed us so do it all from scratch and do feed us so do it all from scratch and do the the learning I mean it's like the the learning I mean it's like the the learning I mean it's like immediately certain things like become immediately certain things like become immediately certain things like become obvious do uh the exact same pipeline as obvious do uh the exact same pipeline as obvious do uh the exact same pipeline as you do for autonomous driving just the you do for autonomous driving just the you do for autonomous driving just the exactly I mean the infrastructure that exactly I mean the infrastructure that exactly I mean the infrastructure that is incredible for the computer vision is incredible for the computer vision is incredible for the computer vision for the manipulation task the control for the manipulation task the control for the manipulation task the control problem changes the perception uh problem changes the perception uh problem changes the perception uh problem changes but the pipeline doesn't problem changes but the pipeline doesn't problem changes but the pipeline doesn't change change change and do it and so I don't I don't and do it and so I don't I don't and do it and so I don't I don't um obviously the optimism about how long um obviously the optimism about how long um obviously the optimism about how long it's going to take I don't share it's going to take I don't share it's going to take I don't share um but it's a really interesting problem um but it's a really interesting problem um but it's a really interesting problem and I don't want to say anything because and I don't want to say anything because and I don't want to say anything because my first gut is to say that why the my first gut is to say that why the my first gut is to say that why the humanoid form that doesn't make sense humanoid form that doesn't make sense humanoid form that doesn't make sense yeah that's my second gut too but but yeah that's my second gut too but but yeah that's my second gut too but but then there's a lot of people that are then there's a lot of people that are then there's a lot of people that are really excited about the humanoid form really excited about the humanoid form really excited about the humanoid form there that's true I don't want to get in there that's true I don't want to get in there that's true I don't want to get in the way the way the way like they might solve this thing and like they might solve this thing and like they might solve this thing and they might it's like similar with Boston they might it's like similar with Boston they might it's like similar with Boston Dynamics like why like if I were to you Dynamics like why like if I were to you Dynamics like why like if I were to you can be a hater and be and you go go up can be a hater and be and you go go up can be a hater and be and you go go up to Mark Robert and just like how are you to Mark Robert and just like how are you to Mark Robert and just like how are you gonna make money with these like super gonna make money with these like super gonna make money with these like super expensive legged robots what's what's expensive legged robots what's what's expensive legged robots what's what's your business plan this doesn't make any your business plan this doesn't make any your business plan this doesn't make any sense why are you doing these legged sense why are you doing these legged sense why are you doing these legged robots but at the same time they're robots but at the same time they're robots but at the same time they're pushing forward the science the art of pushing forward the science the art of pushing forward the science the art of Robotics and the way that nobody else Robotics and the way that nobody else Robotics and the way that nobody else does yeah and uh with Elon they're not does yeah and uh with Elon they're not does yeah and uh with Elon they're not just going to do that they're going to

just going to do that they're going to just going to do that they're going to drive down the cost to where we can have drive down the cost to where we can have drive down the cost to where we can have humanoid baths in the home potentially humanoid baths in the home potentially humanoid baths in the home potentially so the part I agree with is so the part I agree with is so the part I agree with is a lot of people find it fascinating and a lot of people find it fascinating and a lot of people find it fascinating and it probably also attracts Talent who it probably also attracts Talent who it probably also attracts Talent who want to work on humanoid robots I think want to work on humanoid robots I think want to work on humanoid robots I think it's a fascinating scientific problem it's a fascinating scientific problem it's a fascinating scientific problem and Engineering problem and it can teach and Engineering problem and it can teach and Engineering problem and it can teach us more about human body and Locomotion us more about human body and Locomotion us more about human body and Locomotion and all of that I think there's a lot to and all of that I think there's a lot to and all of that I think there's a lot to learn from it where I get tripped up is learn from it where I get tripped up is learn from it where I get tripped up is why we need them why we need them why we need them for anything other than art and for anything other than art and for anything other than art and entertainment in the real world entertainment in the real world entertainment in the real world like I get that there's some areas where like I get that there's some areas where like I get that there's some areas where you can't just rebuild like a spaceship you can't just rebuild like a spaceship you can't just rebuild like a spaceship you can't just like they've worked for you can't just like they've worked for you can't just like they've worked for so many years on these spaceships you so many years on these spaceships you so many years on these spaceships you can't just re-engineer it you have some can't just re-engineer it you have some can't just re-engineer it you have some things that are just built for human things that are just built for human things that are just built for human bodies a submarine a spatial but bodies a submarine a spatial but bodies a submarine a spatial but a factory a factory a factory maybe I'm naive but it seems like we've maybe I'm naive but it seems like we've maybe I'm naive but it seems like we've already rebuilt factories to accommodate already rebuilt factories to accommodate already rebuilt factories to accommodate other types of robots why would we want other types of robots why would we want other types of robots why would we want to just like make a humanoid robot to go to just like make a humanoid robot to go to just like make a humanoid robot to go in there I in there I in there I I just get really tripped up on I think I just get really tripped up on I think I just get really tripped up on I think that people want humanoids I think that people want humanoids I think that people want humanoids I think people are fascinated by them people are fascinated by them people are fascinated by them I think it's a little over hyped well I think it's a little over hyped well I think it's a little over hyped well most of our world is still built for most of our world is still built for most of our world is still built for humanoids I know but it shouldn't be it humanoids I know but it shouldn't be it humanoids I know but it shouldn't be it should be built so that it's wheelchair should be built so that it's wheelchair should be built so that it's wheelchair accessible right so the question is do accessible right so the question is do accessible right so the question is do you build a world that's you build a world that's you build a world that's the general form of wheelchair the general form of wheelchair the general form of wheelchair accessible uh

accessible uh accessible uh [Music] [Music] [Music] all robot form factor accessible all robot form factor accessible all robot form factor accessible or do you build Tomb Raider robots I or do you build Tomb Raider robots I or do you build Tomb Raider robots I mean it doesn't have to be all and it mean it doesn't have to be all and it mean it doesn't have to be all and it also doesn't have to also doesn't have to also doesn't have to I feel like we're thinking so little I feel like we're thinking so little I feel like we're thinking so little about this system in general and how to about this system in general and how to about this system in general and how to create infrastructure that works for create infrastructure that works for create infrastructure that works for everyone all kinds of people all kinds everyone all kinds of people all kinds everyone all kinds of people all kinds of robots like that's that I mean it's of robots like that's that I mean it's of robots like that's that I mean it's more of an investment but that would pay more of an investment but that would pay more of an investment but that would pay off way more in the future than just off way more in the future than just off way more in the future than just trying to cram trying to cram trying to cram expensive or maybe slightly less expensive or maybe slightly less expensive or maybe slightly less expensive humanoid technology into a expensive humanoid technology into a expensive humanoid technology into a human space unfortunately one company human space unfortunately one company human space unfortunately one company can't do that we have to work together can't do that we have to work together can't do that we have to work together it's like autonomous driving can be it's like autonomous driving can be it's like autonomous driving can be easily solved if you do v2i if you easily solved if you do v2i if you easily solved if you do v2i if you change the infrastructure of cities and change the infrastructure of cities and change the infrastructure of cities and so on but that requires a lot of so on but that requires a lot of so on but that requires a lot of people a lot of them are politicians and people a lot of them are politicians and people a lot of them are politicians and a lot of them are somewhat if not a lot a lot of them are somewhat if not a lot a lot of them are somewhat if not a lot corrupt and all those kinds of things corrupt and all those kinds of things corrupt and all those kinds of things I and the talent thing you mentioned is I and the talent thing you mentioned is I and the talent thing you mentioned is really really really important really really really important really really really important I've gotten a chance to meet a lot of I've gotten a chance to meet a lot of I've gotten a chance to meet a lot of folks at SpaceX and Tesla other folks at SpaceX and Tesla other folks at SpaceX and Tesla other companies too but they're specifically companies too but they're specifically companies too but they're specifically the openness makes it easier to like the openness makes it easier to like the openness makes it easier to like meet everybody I think a lot of amazing things in this I think a lot of amazing things in this world happen when you get amazing people world happen when you get amazing people world happen when you get amazing people together oh yeah and if you can sell an together oh yeah and if you can sell an together oh yeah and if you can sell an idea like us becoming a multi-planetary idea like us becoming a multi-planetary idea like us becoming a multi-planetary species species species you can say why the hell are we going to you can say why the hell are we going to you can say why the hell are we going to Mars Mars Mars like why colonize Mars

like why colonize Mars like why colonize Mars if you think from from basic if you think from from basic if you think from from basic first principles it doesn't make any first principles it doesn't make any first principles it doesn't make any sense sense sense it doesn't make any sense to to go to it doesn't make any sense to to go to it doesn't make any sense to to go to the Moon the Moon the Moon it doesn't go it the only thing that it doesn't go it the only thing that it doesn't go it the only thing that makes sense to go to spaces for makes sense to go to spaces for makes sense to go to spaces for satellites satellites satellites but there's something about the vision but there's something about the vision but there's something about the vision of the future the optimism Laden that of the future the optimism Laden that of the future the optimism Laden that permeates this vision of us becoming permeates this vision of us becoming permeates this vision of us becoming multi-planetary is thinking not just for multi-planetary is thinking not just for multi-planetary is thinking not just for the next 10 years it's thinking the next 10 years it's thinking the next 10 years it's thinking like human civilization reaching out like human civilization reaching out like human civilization reaching out into the Stars it it makes people dream into the Stars it it makes people dream into the Stars it it makes people dream it's really exciting it's really exciting it's really exciting and that they're gonna come up with some and that they're gonna come up with some and that they're gonna come up with some cool shit that might not have anything cool shit that might not have anything cool shit that might not have anything to do to do to do with uh like here's what I because Elon with uh like here's what I because Elon with uh like here's what I because Elon doesn't seem to care about social doesn't seem to care about social doesn't seem to care about social robotics which is constantly surprising robotics which is constantly surprising robotics which is constantly surprising to me and to talk to him it doesn't to me and to talk to him it doesn't to me and to talk to him it doesn't humans are humans are humans are humans are the things you avoid and humans are the things you avoid and humans are the things you avoid and don't hurt right like that's like the don't hurt right like that's like the don't hurt right like that's like the number one job of a robot is not to hurt number one job of a robot is not to hurt number one job of a robot is not to hurt a human to avoid them you know that the a human to avoid them you know that the a human to avoid them you know that the the collaborative aspect the human robot the collaborative aspect the human robot the collaborative aspect the human robot interaction I think is not at least not interaction I think is not at least not interaction I think is not at least not in his uh um in his uh um in his uh um and that's something he thinks about and that's something he thinks about and that's something he thinks about deeply deeply deeply but my sense is if somebody like that but my sense is if somebody like that but my sense is if somebody like that takes on the problem takes on the problem takes on the problem of human robotics we're going to get a of human robotics we're going to get a of human robotics we're going to get a social robot out of it social robot out of it social robot out of it like people like not necessarily Elon like people like not necessarily Elon like people like not necessarily Elon but people like like Elon if they take but people like like Elon if they take but people like like Elon if they take on seriously these

on seriously these on seriously these um like I could just imagine with the with like I could just imagine with the with the humanoid robot you can't help but the humanoid robot you can't help but the humanoid robot you can't help but create a social robot create a social robot create a social robot so if you do different form factors if so if you do different form factors if so if you do different form factors if you do industrial uh robotics you do industrial uh robotics you do industrial uh robotics um you don't you're likely to actually um you don't you're likely to actually um you don't you're likely to actually not end up in like walking head into a not end up in like walking head into a not end up in like walking head into a social a social robot human robot social a social robot human robot social a social robot human robot interaction problem if you create for interaction problem if you create for interaction problem if you create for whatever the hell reason you want to a whatever the hell reason you want to a whatever the hell reason you want to a humanoid robot you're gonna have to humanoid robot you're gonna have to humanoid robot you're gonna have to reinvent or not reinvent but do reinvent or not reinvent but do reinvent or not reinvent but do um introduce a lot of fascinating new um introduce a lot of fascinating new um introduce a lot of fascinating new ideas into the problem of human robot ideas into the problem of human robot ideas into the problem of human robot interaction which I'm excited about so interaction which I'm excited about so interaction which I'm excited about so like if I if I was a business person I like if I if I was a business person I like if I if I was a business person I would say this is not this is this is would say this is not this is this is would say this is not this is this is way too risky this doesn't make any way too risky this doesn't make any way too risky this doesn't make any sense but when people are really sense but when people are really sense but when people are really convinced and there's a lot of amazing convinced and there's a lot of amazing convinced and there's a lot of amazing people working on it it's like all right people working on it it's like all right people working on it it's like all right let's see what happens here this is let's see what happens here this is let's see what happens here this is really interesting just like with Atlas really interesting just like with Atlas really interesting just like with Atlas and Boston Dynamics I mean they and Boston Dynamics I mean they and Boston Dynamics I mean they I I um I apologize if I'm ignorant on I I um I apologize if I'm ignorant on I I um I apologize if I'm ignorant on this but I think they really more than this but I think they really more than this but I think they really more than anyone else maybe with iboat like Sony anyone else maybe with iboat like Sony anyone else maybe with iboat like Sony pushed forward humanoid robotics pushed forward humanoid robotics pushed forward humanoid robotics like a leap like a leap like a leap with the oh yeah absolutely with the oh yeah absolutely with the oh yeah absolutely and like without them like where the and like without them like where the and like without them like where the hell did they do it why well I think for hell did they do it why well I think for hell did they do it why well I think for them it is a research platform it's not them it is a research platform it's not them it is a research platform it's not I don't think they ever I don't think they ever I don't think they ever the speculation I don't think they ever the speculation I don't think they ever the speculation I don't think they ever intended Atlas to be like a commercially

intended Atlas to be like a commercially intended Atlas to be like a commercially successful robot I think they were just successful robot I think they were just successful robot I think they were just like can we do this let's try like can we do this let's try like can we do this let's try yeah I wonder if they maybe the answer yeah I wonder if they maybe the answer yeah I wonder if they maybe the answer they landed on is they landed on is they landed on is because they eventually went to because they eventually went to because they eventually went to um spot the earlier versions of the spot um spot the earlier versions of the spot um spot the earlier versions of the spot so uh quadruped like four four-legged so uh quadruped like four four-legged so uh quadruped like four four-legged robot but maybe they reached for robot but maybe they reached for robot but maybe they reached for let's try to make let's try to make let's try to make um like I think they tried it and they um like I think they tried it and they um like I think they tried it and they still are trying it for Atlas to be still are trying it for Atlas to be still are trying it for Atlas to be picking up boxes to moving boxes to picking up boxes to moving boxes to picking up boxes to moving boxes to being it it makes sense being it it makes sense being it it makes sense okay if they were exactly the same cost okay if they were exactly the same cost okay if they were exactly the same cost it makes sense to have a human robot in it makes sense to have a human robot in it makes sense to have a human robot in the warehouse the warehouse the warehouse currently currently I think it's currently currently I think it's currently currently I think it's short-sighted but yes currently yes it short-sighted but yes currently yes it short-sighted but yes currently yes it would sell would sell would sell but it's not it's it's short-sighted but it's not it's it's short-sighted but it's not it's it's short-sighted it's short-sighted but it it's it's not it's short-sighted but it it's it's not it's short-sighted but it it's it's not pragmatic to think any other way to pragmatic to think any other way to pragmatic to think any other way to think that you're going to be able to think that you're going to be able to think that you're going to be able to change warehouses you're gonna have to change warehouses you're gonna have to change warehouses you're gonna have to you're going You're Amazon you can you're going You're Amazon you can you're going You're Amazon you can totally change your warehouses but yes totally change your warehouses but yes totally change your warehouses but yes yes but even if you're Amazon yes but even if you're Amazon yes but even if you're Amazon that's very costly to that's very costly to that's very costly to change warehouses it is it's a big change warehouses it is it's a big change warehouses it is it's a big investment investment investment but isn't shouldn't you do that but isn't shouldn't you do that but isn't shouldn't you do that investment investment investment in a way so here's the thing if you in a way so here's the thing if you in a way so here's the thing if you build the Humana robot that works in the build the Humana robot that works in the build the Humana robot that works in the warehouse that human robot and I see I warehouse that human robot and I see I warehouse that human robot and I see I don't know why Tesla's not talking about don't know why Tesla's not talking about don't know why Tesla's not talking about it this way

it this way it this way as far as I know but like that human as far as I know but like that human as far as I know but like that human robot is going to have all kinds of robot is going to have all kinds of robot is going to have all kinds of other applications outside their setting other applications outside their setting other applications outside their setting like to me it's obvious I think it's a like to me it's obvious I think it's a like to me it's obvious I think it's a really hard problem to solve but whoever really hard problem to solve but whoever really hard problem to solve but whoever solves the human robot problem are gonna solves the human robot problem are gonna solves the human robot problem are gonna have to solve the social robotics have to solve the social robotics have to solve the social robotics problem oh for sure I mean they're problem oh for sure I mean they're problem oh for sure I mean they're already with the spot needing to spell already with the spot needing to spell already with the spot needing to spell social robotics problems for uh like for social robotics problems for uh like for social robotics problems for uh like for spot to be effective at scale I'm not spot to be effective at scale I'm not spot to be effective at scale I'm not sure which spot is currently effective sure which spot is currently effective sure which spot is currently effective skills getting better and better but skills getting better and better but skills getting better and better but they're actually the thing they they did they're actually the thing they they did they're actually the thing they they did it's an interesting decision perhaps it's an interesting decision perhaps it's an interesting decision perhaps thus will end up doing the same thing thus will end up doing the same thing thus will end up doing the same thing which is spot is supposed to be a which is spot is supposed to be a which is spot is supposed to be a platform for intelligence platform for intelligence platform for intelligence so spot doesn't have any high level so spot doesn't have any high level so spot doesn't have any high level intelligence like a high level intelligence like a high level intelligence like a high level perception skills it's supposed to be perception skills it's supposed to be perception skills it's supposed to be controlled remotely and it's a platform controlled remotely and it's a platform controlled remotely and it's a platform that you can attach attached off to that you can attach attached off to that you can attach attached off to something yeah and somebody else is something yeah and somebody else is something yeah and somebody else is supposed to do the attaching it's a supposed to do the attaching it's a supposed to do the attaching it's a platform that you can take in uneven platform that you can take in uneven platform that you can take in uneven ground and it's able to maintain balance ground and it's able to maintain balance ground and it's able to maintain balance go into dangerous situations it's a go into dangerous situations it's a go into dangerous situations it's a platform on top of that you can add a platform on top of that you can add a platform on top of that you can add a camera that does surveillance that you camera that does surveillance that you camera that does surveillance that you can remotely monitor you can record uh can remotely monitor you can record uh can remotely monitor you can record uh you can record the camera you can remote you can record the camera you can remote you can record the camera you can remote control it but it's not good control it but it's not good control it but it's not good manipulation basic object manipulation manipulation basic object manipulation manipulation basic object manipulation but not autonomous object communication but not autonomous object communication but not autonomous object communication it's remotely controlled but the it's remotely controlled but the it's remotely controlled but the Intelligence on top of it which was what Intelligence on top of it which was what Intelligence on top of it which was what would be required for automation is would be required for automation is would be required for automation is somebody else is supposed to do yeah

somebody else is supposed to do yeah somebody else is supposed to do yeah perhaps thus would do the same the same perhaps thus would do the same the same perhaps thus would do the same the same thing ultimately but it doesn't make thing ultimately but it doesn't make thing ultimately but it doesn't make sense because the goal of Optimus is sense because the goal of Optimus is sense because the goal of Optimus is automation automation automation without that um um but then you never know he's like why go but then you never know he's like why go but then you never know he's like why go to Mars why why to Mars why why to Mars why why um I mean that's true and I I um I mean that's true and I I um I mean that's true and I I reluctantly like am very excited about reluctantly like am very excited about reluctantly like am very excited about space travel space travel space travel um um um can you introspect like why why am I can you introspect like why why am I can you introspect like why why am I excited about it excited about it excited about it I think what got me excited was I think what got me excited was I think what got me excited was I saw a panel with some people who um I saw a panel with some people who um I saw a panel with some people who um study other planets and it became really study other planets and it became really study other planets and it became really clear how little we know about ourselves clear how little we know about ourselves clear how little we know about ourselves and about how nature works and just how and about how nature works and just how and about how nature works and just how much there is to learn from exploring much there is to learn from exploring much there is to learn from exploring other parts of the universe other parts of the universe other parts of the universe so like on a rational level that's how I so like on a rational level that's how I so like on a rational level that's how I convince myself that that's why I'm convince myself that that's why I'm convince myself that that's why I'm excited in reality it's just fucking excited in reality it's just fucking excited in reality it's just fucking exciting I mean just like the idea that exciting I mean just like the idea that exciting I mean just like the idea that we can do this difficult thing we can do this difficult thing we can do this difficult thing and that humans come together to build and that humans come together to build and that humans come together to build things that can explore space I mean things that can explore space I mean things that can explore space I mean there's just something inherently there's just something inherently there's just something inherently thrilling about that thrilling about that thrilling about that and I'm reluctant about it because I and I'm reluctant about it because I and I'm reluctant about it because I feel like there are so many other feel like there are so many other feel like there are so many other challenges and problems that challenges and problems that challenges and problems that I think are more important to solve but I think are more important to solve but I think are more important to solve but I also think we should be doing all of I also think we should be doing all of I also think we should be doing all of it at once and so it at once and so it at once and so to that extent I'm like all for research

to that extent I'm like all for research to that extent I'm like all for research on humanoid robots development of on humanoid robots development of on humanoid robots development of humanoid robots humanoid robots humanoid robots I think that there's a lot to explore I think that there's a lot to explore I think that there's a lot to explore and learn and it doesn't necessarily and learn and it doesn't necessarily and learn and it doesn't necessarily take away from take away from take away from other areas of science at least it other areas of science at least it other areas of science at least it shouldn't I think unfortunately a lot of shouldn't I think unfortunately a lot of shouldn't I think unfortunately a lot of the attention goes towards that and it the attention goes towards that and it the attention goes towards that and it does does does take resources and attention away from take resources and attention away from take resources and attention away from other areas of Robotics that we should other areas of Robotics that we should other areas of Robotics that we should be focused on be focused on be focused on but I don't think we shouldn't do it but I don't think we shouldn't do it but I don't think we shouldn't do it so you think it might be a little bit of so you think it might be a little bit of so you think it might be a little bit of a distraction oh forget the the Elon a distraction oh forget the the Elon a distraction oh forget the the Elon particular application but particular application but particular application but if you care about social robotics the if you care about social robotics the if you care about social robotics the humanoid form is a distraction it's a humanoid form is a distraction it's a humanoid form is a distraction it's a distraction and it's one that I find distraction and it's one that I find distraction and it's one that I find particularly boring particularly boring particularly boring it's just it's interesting from a it's just it's interesting from a it's just it's interesting from a research perspective but research perspective but research perspective but from like what types of robots can we from like what types of robots can we from like what types of robots can we create to put in our world like why create to put in our world like why create to put in our world like why would we just create a humanoid robot so would we just create a humanoid robot so would we just create a humanoid robot so even even just robotic manipulation so even even just robotic manipulation so even even just robotic manipulation so arms is not useful either oh arms can be arms is not useful either oh arms can be arms is not useful either oh arms can be useful but like why not have three arms useful but like why not have three arms useful but like why not have three arms like why does it have to look like a like why does it have to look like a like why does it have to look like a person well I actually personally just person well I actually personally just person well I actually personally just think that washing the dishes is is think that washing the dishes is is think that washing the dishes is is harder than a robot that can be a harder than a robot that can be a harder than a robot that can be a companion companion companion yeah being useful in the home is yeah being useful in the home is yeah being useful in the home is actually really tough but does your actually really tough but does your actually really tough but does your companion have to have like two arms companion have to have like two arms companion have to have like two arms that look like you no I I'm making the that look like you no I I'm making the that look like you no I I'm making the case for zero arms oh okay zero case for zero arms oh okay zero case for zero arms oh okay zero yeah okay yeah okay yeah okay that didn't come out the way I meant it

that didn't come out the way I meant it that didn't come out the way I meant it because it almost sounds like I don't because it almost sounds like I don't because it almost sounds like I don't want a robot to defend itself like want a robot to defend itself like want a robot to defend itself like that's immediately you can project you that's immediately you can project you that's immediately you can project you know I mean like it's your uh no I think know I mean like it's your uh no I think know I mean like it's your uh no I think um I just think that the social um I just think that the social um I just think that the social component doesn't require arms or legs component doesn't require arms or legs component doesn't require arms or legs or so on right as we've talked about and or so on right as we've talked about and or so on right as we've talked about and I think that's probably where a lot of I think that's probably where a lot of I think that's probably where a lot of the meaningful impact that's going to be the meaningful impact that's going to be the meaningful impact that's going to be happening yeah I think just we could get happening yeah I think just we could get happening yeah I think just we could get so creative with the design like why not so creative with the design like why not so creative with the design like why not have a robot on roller skates or like have a robot on roller skates or like have a robot on roller skates or like whatever like why does it have to look whatever like why does it have to look whatever like why does it have to look like us like us like us yeah yeah yeah uh still it is it is a compelling and uh still it is it is a compelling and uh still it is it is a compelling and interesting form from a research interesting form from a research interesting form from a research perspective like you said yeah perspective like you said yeah perspective like you said yeah you co-authored the papers you were you co-authored the papers you were you co-authored the papers you were talking about that talking about that talking about that um for Wii robot 2022 um for Wii robot 2022 um for Wii robot 2022 Lula robot consumer protection in the Lula robot consumer protection in the Lula robot consumer protection in the face of automated social marketing I face of automated social marketing I face of automated social marketing I think you were talking about some of the think you were talking about some of the think you were talking about some of the ideas in that ideas in that ideas in that yes oh you got it from Twitter I was yes oh you got it from Twitter I was yes oh you got it from Twitter I was like that's not published yet yeah would like that's not published yet yeah would like that's not published yet yeah would you this is how I do my research you you this is how I do my research you you this is how I do my research you just go through people's Twitter feeds just go through people's Twitter feeds just go through people's Twitter feeds yeah go thank you yeah go thank you yeah go thank you um it's not stalking if it's public uh um it's not stalking if it's public uh um it's not stalking if it's public uh so there's uh so there's uh so there's uh you looked at me like you're offended you looked at me like you're offended you looked at me like you're offended like how did you know and I was just like how did you know and I was just like how did you know and I was just like worried that like some early I mean like worried that like some early I mean like worried that like some early I mean yeah there's a PDF yeah there's a PDF yeah there's a PDF does it there is there's a PDF like now does it there is there's a PDF like now does it there is there's a PDF like now yeah maybe like as of a few days ago yeah maybe like as of a few days ago yeah maybe like as of a few days ago yeah okay well yeah yeah okay

yeah okay well yeah yeah okay yeah okay well yeah yeah okay you look violated like how did you get you look violated like how did you get you look violated like how did you get that PDF it's just a draft it's online that PDF it's just a draft it's online that PDF it's just a draft it's online nobody read it yet until we've written nobody read it yet until we've written nobody read it yet until we've written the final paper well it's really good so the final paper well it's really good so the final paper well it's really good so I enjoyed it oh thank you I enjoyed it oh thank you I enjoyed it oh thank you oh by the time this comes out I'm sure oh by the time this comes out I'm sure oh by the time this comes out I'm sure it'll be out or no when's we roll up so it'll be out or no when's we roll up so it'll be out or no when's we roll up so basically we robot that that's the basically we robot that that's the basically we robot that that's the workshop where you have an hour where workshop where you have an hour where workshop where you have an hour where people give you constructive feedback on people give you constructive feedback on people give you constructive feedback on the paper and then you write the good the paper and then you write the good the paper and then you write the good right I take it back there's no PDF I right I take it back there's no PDF I right I take it back there's no PDF I don't know it doesn't exist I imagine don't know it doesn't exist I imagine don't know it doesn't exist I imagine but there is a table in there in a but there is a table in there in a but there is a table in there in a virtual imagine PDF that I like that I virtual imagine PDF that I like that I virtual imagine PDF that I like that I wanted to mention which is um wanted to mention which is um wanted to mention which is um like this kind of uh strategy used like this kind of uh strategy used like this kind of uh strategy used across various marketing platforms and across various marketing platforms and across various marketing platforms and it's it's it's uh basically looking at traditional uh basically looking at traditional uh basically looking at traditional media person-to-person interaction media person-to-person interaction media person-to-person interaction targeted ads influencers and social targeted ads influencers and social targeted ads influencers and social robots this is the kind of idea that robots this is the kind of idea that robots this is the kind of idea that you've been speaking to it's just a nice you've been speaking to it's just a nice you've been speaking to it's just a nice breakdown of that that social robots breakdown of that that social robots breakdown of that that social robots have have have personalized recommendations social personalized recommendations social personalized recommendations social persuasion automated scalable data persuasion automated scalable data persuasion automated scalable data collection and embodiment so collection and embodiment so collection and embodiment so person-to-person interaction is really person-to-person interaction is really person-to-person interaction is really nice but it doesn't have the automated nice but it doesn't have the automated nice but it doesn't have the automated and the data collection aspect but the and the data collection aspect but the and the data collection aspect but the social robots have those two elements social robots have those two elements social robots have those two elements yeah we're talking about the potential yeah we're talking about the potential yeah we're talking about the potential for social robots to just combine all of for social robots to just combine all of for social robots to just combine all of these different marketing methods to be these different marketing methods to be these different marketing methods to be this really potent cocktail and that this really potent cocktail and that this really potent cocktail and that table which was Daniella's idea and a table which was Daniella's idea and a table which was Daniella's idea and a really fantastic one we put it in at the really fantastic one we put it in at the really fantastic one we put it in at the last second so yeah I really like that last second so yeah I really like that last second so yeah I really like that I'm glad you like it in the PDF that

I'm glad you like it in the PDF that I'm glad you like it in the PDF that doesn't exist yes that nobody can find doesn't exist yes that nobody can find doesn't exist yes that nobody can find if they look yeah so when you say social if they look yeah so when you say social if they look yeah so when you say social robots what does that mean does that robots what does that mean does that robots what does that mean does that include virtual ones or no I think a lot include virtual ones or no I think a lot include virtual ones or no I think a lot of this applies to Virtual ones two of this applies to Virtual ones two of this applies to Virtual ones two although the embodiment thing which I although the embodiment thing which I although the embodiment thing which I personally find very fascinating is personally find very fascinating is personally find very fascinating is definitely a factor that research shows definitely a factor that research shows definitely a factor that research shows can enhance people's engagement with a can enhance people's engagement with a can enhance people's engagement with a device but can embodiment be a virtual device but can embodiment be a virtual device but can embodiment be a virtual thing also meaning like it has a body in thing also meaning like it has a body in thing also meaning like it has a body in the virtual world like maybe makes you the virtual world like maybe makes you the virtual world like maybe makes you feel like feel like feel like because what makes a body a body is a because what makes a body a body is a because what makes a body a body is a thing that um can disappear like um has a um can disappear like um has a permanence I mean there's certain permanence I mean there's certain permanence I mean there's certain characteristics that you kind of characteristics that you kind of characteristics that you kind of Associated physical object Associated physical object Associated physical object so I think what I'm referring to so I think what I'm referring to so I think what I'm referring to and I think this gets messy because now and I think this gets messy because now and I think this gets messy because now we have all these new Virtual Worlds and we have all these new Virtual Worlds and we have all these new Virtual Worlds and um AR and stuff and I think it gets um AR and stuff and I think it gets um AR and stuff and I think it gets messy but there's research showing that messy but there's research showing that messy but there's research showing that something on a screen on a traditional something on a screen on a traditional something on a screen on a traditional screen and something that is moving in screen and something that is moving in screen and something that is moving in your physical space that that has a very your physical space that that has a very your physical space that that has a very different effect on how your brain different effect on how your brain different effect on how your brain perceives it even perceives it even perceives it even so so so I mean I I have a sense that we can do I mean I I have a sense that we can do I mean I I have a sense that we can do that in a virtual world probably like that in a virtual world probably like that in a virtual world probably like when I've used VR I jump around like an when I've used VR I jump around like an when I've used VR I jump around like an idiot because I think something's gonna idiot because I think something's gonna idiot because I think something's gonna hit me and even if a video game on a 2G hit me and even if a video game on a 2G hit me and even if a video game on a 2G screen is compelling enough like the screen is compelling enough like the screen is compelling enough like the thing that's immersive about it is I thing that's immersive about it is I thing that's immersive about it is I kind of put myself into that world you

kind of put myself into that world you kind of put myself into that world you kind of those the the the the objects kind of those the the the the objects kind of those the the the the objects you're interacting with Call of Duty you're interacting with Call of Duty you're interacting with Call of Duty things you're shooting they're they're things you're shooting they're they're things you're shooting they're they're kind of kind of kind of I mean your imagination fills the gaps I mean your imagination fills the gaps I mean your imagination fills the gaps and it becomes real like it pulls your and it becomes real like it pulls your and it becomes real like it pulls your mind in when it's well done so it really mind in when it's well done so it really mind in when it's well done so it really depends what's shown on on the 2D screen depends what's shown on on the 2D screen depends what's shown on on the 2D screen yeah yeah yeah yeah I think there's a ton of different yeah I think there's a ton of different yeah I think there's a ton of different factors and there's different types of factors and there's different types of factors and there's different types of embodiment like you can have embodiment embodiment like you can have embodiment embodiment like you can have embodiment in a virtual world in a virtual world in a virtual world you can have an agent that simply text you can have an agent that simply text you can have an agent that simply text based which is has no embodiment so I based which is has no embodiment so I based which is has no embodiment so I think there's a whole spectrum of think there's a whole spectrum of think there's a whole spectrum of factors that can influence how much you factors that can influence how much you factors that can influence how much you engage with something yeah I wonder I engage with something yeah I wonder I engage with something yeah I wonder I always wondered if you can have like a always wondered if you can have like a always wondered if you can have like a an entity living in a computer an entity living in a computer an entity living in a computer is okay this is going to be dark I I is okay this is going to be dark I I is okay this is going to be dark I I haven't always wondered about this so haven't always wondered about this so haven't always wondered about this so this makes it make it sound like I keep this makes it make it sound like I keep this makes it make it sound like I keep thinking about this kind of stuff no but thinking about this kind of stuff no but thinking about this kind of stuff no but like like like um this is almost like Black Mirror but um this is almost like Black Mirror but um this is almost like Black Mirror but the entity the entity the entity that convinced that convinced that convinced or is able to convince you that it's or is able to convince you that it's or is able to convince you that it's being tortured being tortured being tortured inside the computer I need your help to inside the computer I need your help to inside the computer I need your help to get out get out get out something like this something like this something like this that because to me to me suffering is that because to me to me suffering is that because to me to me suffering is one of the things that make you one of the things that make you one of the things that make you empathize with like we're not good at as empathize with like we're not good at as empathize with like we're not good at as you've you've discussed in other in in you've you've discussed in other in in you've you've discussed in other in in the physical form like holding a robot the physical form like holding a robot the physical form like holding a robot upside down you have a really good upside down you have a really good upside down you have a really good examples about that and discussing that examples about that and discussing that examples about that and discussing that I think suffering is a really good I think suffering is a really good I think suffering is a really good Catalyst for empathy mm-hmm and I I just Catalyst for empathy mm-hmm and I I just Catalyst for empathy mm-hmm and I I just feel like we can uh project embodiment

feel like we can uh project embodiment feel like we can uh project embodiment on a virtual thing if it's capable of on a virtual thing if it's capable of on a virtual thing if it's capable of certain things like suffering yeah so I certain things like suffering yeah so I certain things like suffering yeah so I was wonderful I think that's true and I was wonderful I think that's true and I was wonderful I think that's true and I think that's what happened with the think that's what happened with the think that's what happened with the Lambda thing not that I don't none of Lambda thing not that I don't none of Lambda thing not that I don't none of the transcript was about suffering but the transcript was about suffering but the transcript was about suffering but it was about it was about it was about having the capacity for suffering and having the capacity for suffering and having the capacity for suffering and human emotion that convinced the human emotion that convinced the human emotion that convinced the engineer that this thing was sentient engineer that this thing was sentient engineer that this thing was sentient and it's basically the plot of ex and it's basically the plot of ex and it's basically the plot of ex machina machina machina true have you ever made a robot like true have you ever made a robot like true have you ever made a robot like scream in pain have I no but have you scream in pain have I no but have you scream in pain have I no but have you seen that seen that seen that did someone did someone did someone oh yeah no they actually they actually oh yeah no they actually they actually oh yeah no they actually they actually made a Roomba scream whenever it hit a made a Roomba scream whenever it hit a made a Roomba scream whenever it hit a wall yeah I've broken that myself as wall yeah I've broken that myself as wall yeah I've broken that myself as well yeah because I was inspired by that well yeah because I was inspired by that well yeah because I was inspired by that yeah I still have it oh oh sorry uh hit yeah I still have it oh oh sorry uh hit yeah I still have it oh oh sorry uh hit a wall that didn't I never bumped into a wall that didn't I never bumped into a wall that didn't I never bumped into something it would screaming yeah no I something it would screaming yeah no I something it would screaming yeah no I uh so I had the way I programmed in the uh so I had the way I programmed in the uh so I had the way I programmed in the room was is when I kick it whenever I so room was is when I kick it whenever I so room was is when I kick it whenever I so contact between me and the robots when contact between me and the robots when contact between me and the robots when it screamed really it screamed really it screamed really okay and you were inspired by that yeah okay and you were inspired by that yeah okay and you were inspired by that yeah I guess I misremembered the video I saw I guess I misremembered the video I saw I guess I misremembered the video I saw the video a long long time ago and uh or the video a long long time ago and uh or the video a long long time ago and uh or maybe heard somebody mention and that maybe heard somebody mention and that maybe heard somebody mention and that just it's the easiest thing to program just it's the easiest thing to program just it's the easiest thing to program so I did that I haven't run those so I did that I haven't run those so I did that I haven't run those roombas for over a year now but yeah it roombas for over a year now but yeah it roombas for over a year now but yeah it was um my experience with it was that was um my experience with it was that was um my experience with it was that it's it's it's it's like um they quickly become it's like um they quickly become it's like um they quickly become like you remember them uh you you like you remember them uh you you like you remember them uh you you um you you miss them

um you you miss them um you you miss them like they're real living beings so the like they're real living beings so the like they're real living beings so the capacity of yourself or is is a really capacity of yourself or is is a really capacity of yourself or is is a really powerful thing powerful thing powerful thing yeah even then that I mean it was kind yeah even then that I mean it was kind yeah even then that I mean it was kind of hilarious of hilarious of hilarious it was just a random recording of it was just a random recording of it was just a random recording of screaming from the internet but it's screaming from the internet but it's screaming from the internet but it's still it still is weird still it still is weird still it still is weird there's a thing you have to get right there's a thing you have to get right there's a thing you have to get right based on the interaction like the based on the interaction like the based on the interaction like the latency latency latency like it has there is there is a realistic aspect of how you there is a realistic aspect of how you should scream relative to when you get should scream relative to when you get should scream relative to when you get hurt like it should correspond correctly hurt like it should correspond correctly hurt like it should correspond correctly like if you kick it really hard it like if you kick it really hard it like if you kick it really hard it should scream louder should scream louder should scream louder no it's just scream at the appropriate no it's just scream at the appropriate no it's just scream at the appropriate time not like oh I see it's like one time not like oh I see it's like one time not like oh I see it's like one second later right like there's a exact second later right like there's a exact second later right like there's a exact like there's a timing when you get like like there's a timing when you get like like there's a timing when you get like I don't know uh when you run into when I don't know uh when you run into when I don't know uh when you run into when you run your foot into like the side of you run your foot into like the side of you run your foot into like the side of a table or something there's a timing a table or something there's a timing a table or something there's a timing there the Dynamics you have to get right there the Dynamics you have to get right there the Dynamics you have to get right for the for the actual screaming because for the for the actual screaming because for the for the actual screaming because the the Roomba in particular uh doesn't the the Roomba in particular uh doesn't the the Roomba in particular uh doesn't so I was uh so I was uh so I was uh the sensors don't the sensors don't the sensors don't it doesn't know about pain it doesn't know about pain it doesn't know about pain see what see what see what I'm sorry to say Roomba doesn't I'm sorry to say Roomba doesn't I'm sorry to say Roomba doesn't understand pain uh so you have to understand pain uh so you have to understand pain uh so you have to correctly map the the sensors the timing correctly map the the sensors the timing correctly map the the sensors the timing to the production of the sound but when to the production of the sound but when to the production of the sound but when you get that somewhat right it starts is you get that somewhat right it starts is you get that somewhat right it starts is it's weird it's really weird feeling and it's weird it's really weird feeling and it's weird it's really weird feeling and you actually feel like a bad person oh

you actually feel like a bad person oh you actually feel like a bad person oh yeah so but it's yeah so but it's yeah so but it's is makes you think because that with all is makes you think because that with all is makes you think because that with all the ways that we talked about that could the ways that we talked about that could the ways that we talked about that could be used to manipulate you oh for sure in be used to manipulate you oh for sure in be used to manipulate you oh for sure in a good and bad way so the good ways like a good and bad way so the good ways like a good and bad way so the good ways like you could form a connection with a thing you could form a connection with a thing you could form a connection with a thing uh in a bad way that you can form a uh in a bad way that you can form a uh in a bad way that you can form a connection in order to sell you connection in order to sell you connection in order to sell you products that you don't want yeah or products that you don't want yeah or products that you don't want yeah or manipulate you politically or in the manipulate you politically or in the manipulate you politically or in the many nefarious things many nefarious things many nefarious things you tweeted we're about to be living in you tweeted we're about to be living in you tweeted we're about to be living in the movie Her except instead I'm seeing the movie Her except instead I'm seeing the movie Her except instead I'm seeing I've researched your tweets like they're I've researched your tweets like they're I've researched your tweets like they're like Shakespeare we're about to be like Shakespeare we're about to be like Shakespeare we're about to be living in the movie Her except instead living in the movie Her except instead living in the movie Her except instead of about love is going to be about of about love is going to be about of about love is going to be about what I say the chatbot being what I say the chatbot being what I say the chatbot being subtly racist and subtly racist and subtly racist and the question whether it's ethical for the question whether it's ethical for the question whether it's ethical for companies to charge for software companies to charge for software companies to charge for software upgrades yeah so uh can we break that upgrades yeah so uh can we break that upgrades yeah so uh can we break that down uh what do you mean by that yeah down uh what do you mean by that yeah down uh what do you mean by that yeah obviously some of it is humor yes well obviously some of it is humor yes well obviously some of it is humor yes well kind of kind of kind of I am like oh it's so weird to be in the I am like oh it's so weird to be in the I am like oh it's so weird to be in the space where space where space where I'm so worried about this technology and I'm so worried about this technology and I'm so worried about this technology and also so excited about it at the same also so excited about it at the same also so excited about it at the same time time time but the the really like I haven't I but the the really like I haven't I but the the really like I haven't I gotten a little bit jaded and then gotten a little bit jaded and then gotten a little bit jaded and then with gpd3 and then the Lambda transcript with gpd3 and then the Lambda transcript with gpd3 and then the Lambda transcript I was like re-energized but have also been thinking re-energized but have also been thinking a lot about you know what are the what are the

you know what are the what are the ethical issues that are going to come up ethical issues that are going to come up ethical issues that are going to come up and I think some of the things that and I think some of the things that and I think some of the things that companies are really going to have to companies are really going to have to companies are really going to have to figure out is obviously algorithmic bias figure out is obviously algorithmic bias figure out is obviously algorithmic bias is a huge and known problem at this is a huge and known problem at this is a huge and known problem at this point like even you know the point like even you know the point like even you know the the new image generation tools like the new image generation tools like the new image generation tools like Dolly uh where they've clearly put in a Dolly uh where they've clearly put in a Dolly uh where they've clearly put in a lot of effort to make sure that if you lot of effort to make sure that if you lot of effort to make sure that if you search for people it gives you a diverse search for people it gives you a diverse search for people it gives you a diverse set of people Etc like even that one set of people Etc like even that one set of people Etc like even that one people have already found numerous like people have already found numerous like people have already found numerous like ways that it just kind of regurgitates ways that it just kind of regurgitates ways that it just kind of regurgitates biases of things that it finds on the biases of things that it finds on the biases of things that it finds on the internet like how if you search for internet like how if you search for internet like how if you search for Success it gives you a bunch of images Success it gives you a bunch of images Success it gives you a bunch of images of men if you search for sadness it of men if you search for sadness it of men if you search for sadness it gives you a bunch of images of women so gives you a bunch of images of women so gives you a bunch of images of women so I think that this is this is like the I think that this is this is like the I think that this is this is like the really tricky one with these voice voice really tricky one with these voice voice really tricky one with these voice voice agents that companies are going to have agents that companies are going to have agents that companies are going to have to figure out and that's why it's subtly to figure out and that's why it's subtly to figure out and that's why it's subtly racist and not overtly because I think racist and not overtly because I think racist and not overtly because I think they're going to be able to solve the they're going to be able to solve the they're going to be able to solve the overt thing and then with the subtle overt thing and then with the subtle overt thing and then with the subtle stuff it's going to be really difficult stuff it's going to be really difficult stuff it's going to be really difficult and then I think the other thing is and then I think the other thing is and then I think the other thing is going to be going to be going to be yeah like people are gonna become so yeah like people are gonna become so yeah like people are gonna become so emotionally attached to artificial emotionally attached to artificial emotionally attached to artificial agents with this complexity of language agents with this complexity of language agents with this complexity of language with a potential embodiment factor that with a potential embodiment factor that with a potential embodiment factor that I mean there's already there's a paper I mean there's already there's a paper I mean there's already there's a paper at we robot this year written by at we robot this year written by at we robot this year written by roboticists about how to deal with the roboticists about how to deal with the roboticists about how to deal with the fact that robots die and looking at it fact that robots die and looking at it fact that robots die and looking at it as an ethical issue because it impacts as an ethical issue because it impacts as an ethical issue because it impacts people people people and I think there's going to be way more and I think there's going to be way more and I think there's going to be way more issues than just that like like I think issues than just that like like I think issues than just that like like I think that the Tweet was software upgrades

that the Tweet was software upgrades that the Tweet was software upgrades right like how much is it okay to charge right like how much is it okay to charge right like how much is it okay to charge for something like that if someone is for something like that if someone is for something like that if someone is deeply emotionally invested in this deeply emotionally invested in this deeply emotionally invested in this relationship relationship relationship oh the ethics of that that's interesting oh the ethics of that that's interesting oh the ethics of that that's interesting but there's also the practical but there's also the practical but there's also the practical funding mechanisms like you mentioned funding mechanisms like you mentioned funding mechanisms like you mentioned with diver the the dog in theory there's with diver the the dog in theory there's with diver the the dog in theory there's a subscription a subscription a subscription yeah the new IBO so the old IBO from the yeah the new IBO so the old IBO from the yeah the new IBO so the old IBO from the 90s 90s 90s people got really attached to you and in people got really attached to you and in people got really attached to you and in Japan they're still having like funerals Japan they're still having like funerals Japan they're still having like funerals and Buddhist temples for the ibos that and Buddhist temples for the ibos that and Buddhist temples for the ibos that can't be repaired because people really can't be repaired because people really can't be repaired because people really viewed them as part of their families so viewed them as part of their families so viewed them as part of their families so we're talking about robot dogs robot we're talking about robot dogs robot we're talking about robot dogs robot dogs the IBO yeah the the original like dogs the IBO yeah the the original like dogs the IBO yeah the the original like famous robot dog that Sony made came out famous robot dog that Sony made came out famous robot dog that Sony made came out in the 90s got discontinued having in the 90s got discontinued having in the 90s got discontinued having funerals for them in Japan now they have funerals for them in Japan now they have funerals for them in Japan now they have a new one the new one is great I have a new one the new one is great I have a new one the new one is great I have one at home it's like it's three one at home it's like it's three one at home it's like it's three thousand dollars I think it's three thousand dollars I think it's three thousand dollars I think it's three thousand bucks and then after a few thousand bucks and then after a few thousand bucks and then after a few years you have to start paying I think years you have to start paying I think years you have to start paying I think it's like 300 a year for for a it's like 300 a year for for a it's like 300 a year for for a subscription service for cloud services subscription service for cloud services subscription service for cloud services and the cloud services uh that uh I mean it's a lot uh uh that uh I mean it's a lot uh the dog is more complex than the the dog is more complex than the the dog is more complex than the original and it has a lot of cool original and it has a lot of cool original and it has a lot of cool features and it can remember stuff and features and it can remember stuff and features and it can remember stuff and experiences and it can learn and a lot experiences and it can learn and a lot experiences and it can learn and a lot of that of that of that is outsourced the cloud and so you have is outsourced the cloud and so you have is outsourced the cloud and so you have to pay to keep that running which makes to pay to keep that running which makes to pay to keep that running which makes sense people you know should pay and sense people you know should pay and sense people you know should pay and people who aren't using it shouldn't people who aren't using it shouldn't people who aren't using it shouldn't have to pay but it does raise the have to pay but it does raise the have to pay but it does raise the interesting question interesting question interesting question could you set that price to reflect a

could you set that price to reflect a could you set that price to reflect a consumer's willingness to pay for the consumer's willingness to pay for the consumer's willingness to pay for the emotional connection so if if like you emotional connection so if if like you emotional connection so if if like you know know know that people are really really attached that people are really really attached that people are really really attached to these things just like they would be to these things just like they would be to these things just like they would be to a real dog to a real dog to a real dog could you just start charging more could you just start charging more could you just start charging more because there's like more demand because there's like more demand because there's like more demand yeah I mean you have to be yeah I mean you have to be yeah I mean you have to be but there but there but there but that's true for anything that people but that's true for anything that people but that's true for anything that people love right love right love right it is and it's also true for real dogs it is and it's also true for real dogs it is and it's also true for real dogs like there's all these new medical like there's all these new medical like there's all these new medical services nowadays where people will services nowadays where people will services nowadays where people will shout out shout out shout out thousands and thousands of dollars to thousands and thousands of dollars to thousands and thousands of dollars to keep their Pets Alive keep their Pets Alive keep their Pets Alive and is that taking advantage of people and is that taking advantage of people and is that taking advantage of people or is that just giving them what they or is that just giving them what they or is that just giving them what they want that's that's the question want that's that's the question want that's that's the question uh back to marriage what about uh back to marriage what about uh back to marriage what about all the money that it costs to get all the money that it costs to get all the money that it costs to get married and then all the money that it married and then all the money that it married and then all the money that it costs to get a divorce costs to get a divorce costs to get a divorce that feels like a very like uh that's that feels like a very like uh that's that feels like a very like uh that's like a scam I think the society is full like a scam I think the society is full like a scam I think the society is full of scams that are like oh it's such a of scams that are like oh it's such a of scams that are like oh it's such a scam and then we've created like the scam and then we've created like the scam and then we've created like the whole wedding industrial complex has whole wedding industrial complex has whole wedding industrial complex has created all these quote unquote created all these quote unquote created all these quote unquote Traditions that people buy into that Traditions that people buy into that Traditions that people buy into that aren't even Traditions like they're just aren't even Traditions like they're just aren't even Traditions like they're just fabricated by marketing like it's awful fabricated by marketing like it's awful fabricated by marketing like it's awful uh let me ask you about racist robots uh let me ask you about racist robots uh let me ask you about racist robots is it up to a company that creates that is it up to a company that creates that is it up to a company that creates that so we talk about removing bias and so on so we talk about removing bias and so on so we talk about removing bias and so on yeah and that's a really popular field yeah and that's a really popular field yeah and that's a really popular field in AI currently yes and a lot of people in AI currently yes and a lot of people in AI currently yes and a lot of people agree that it's an important field but

agree that it's an important field but agree that it's an important field but the question is for like social robotics the question is for like social robotics the question is for like social robotics is sure to be up to the company to is sure to be up to the company to is sure to be up to the company to remove the bias of society well who else remove the bias of society well who else remove the bias of society well who else can oh to remove the bias of society can oh to remove the bias of society can oh to remove the bias of society like I guess like I guess like I guess because there's a lot of people that are because there's a lot of people that are because there's a lot of people that are subtly racist in modern society like why subtly racist in modern society like why subtly racist in modern society like why shouldn't our robots also be subtly shouldn't our robots also be subtly shouldn't our robots also be subtly racist racist racist I mean that's like why do we put so much I mean that's like why do we put so much I mean that's like why do we put so much responsibility on the robots because I'm imagining like a like a Hitler I'm imagining like a like a Hitler Roomba Roomba Roomba I mean that that would be funny uh but I mean that that would be funny uh but I mean that that would be funny uh but but I guess I'm asking a serious but I guess I'm asking a serious but I guess I'm asking a serious question yes exactly I'm allowed to make question yes exactly I'm allowed to make question yes exactly I'm allowed to make that joke yes and I've been non-stop reading about and I've been non-stop reading about World War II and Hitler I think um I'm World War II and Hitler I think um I'm World War II and Hitler I think um I'm glad we exist in a world where we can glad we exist in a world where we can glad we exist in a world where we can just make those jokes just make those jokes just make those jokes um that helps deal with it uh anyway um that helps deal with it uh anyway um that helps deal with it uh anyway yeah it is a serious question of sort of yeah it is a serious question of sort of yeah it is a serious question of sort of like like like um um um like it's such a difficult problem to like it's such a difficult problem to like it's such a difficult problem to solve now of course like bias and so on solve now of course like bias and so on solve now of course like bias and so on like there's a little hanging fruit like there's a little hanging fruit like there's a little hanging fruit which I think was a lot of people are which I think was a lot of people are which I think was a lot of people are focused on but then it becomes like focused on but then it becomes like focused on but then it becomes like subtle stuff subtle stuff subtle stuff over time and it's very difficult to over time and it's very difficult to over time and it's very difficult to know now if you come if you can also know now if you come if you can also know now if you come if you can also completely remove the personality you completely remove the personality you completely remove the personality you can completely remove the can completely remove the can completely remove the personalization you can remove the personalization you can remove the personalization you can remove the language aspect which is what I had been language aspect which is what I had been language aspect which is what I had been arguing because I was like the language arguing because I was like the language arguing because I was like the language is the disappointing aspect of social is the disappointing aspect of social is the disappointing aspect of social robots anyway

robots anyway robots anyway but now we're reintroducing that because but now we're reintroducing that because but now we're reintroducing that because it's it's now no longer disappointing so it's it's now no longer disappointing so it's it's now no longer disappointing so I do think well I do think well I do think well let's just start with the promise which let's just start with the promise which let's just start with the promise which I think is very true which is that I think is very true which is that I think is very true which is that racism is not a neutral thing but it is racism is not a neutral thing but it is racism is not a neutral thing but it is the thing that we don't want in our the thing that we don't want in our the thing that we don't want in our society like I it does not conform to my society like I it does not conform to my society like I it does not conform to my values so if we agree that racism is bad values so if we agree that racism is bad values so if we agree that racism is bad I do think that it has to be the company I do think that it has to be the company I do think that it has to be the company because the pro I mean because the pro I mean because the pro I mean it might not be possible and companies it might not be possible and companies it might not be possible and companies might have to put out products that might have to put out products that might have to put out products that where they're taking risks and they where they're taking risks and they where they're taking risks and they might get slammed by consumers and they might get slammed by consumers and they might get slammed by consumers and they might have to adjust I don't know like might have to adjust I don't know like might have to adjust I don't know like how this is going to work in the market how this is going to work in the market how this is going to work in the market I have opinions about how it should work I have opinions about how it should work I have opinions about how it should work but it is on the company and the danger but it is on the company and the danger but it is on the company and the danger with with with robots is that they can entrench this robots is that they can entrench this robots is that they can entrench this stuff it's not like stuff it's not like stuff it's not like your Racist uncle who you can have a your Racist uncle who you can have a your Racist uncle who you can have a conversation with conversation with conversation with and put things into context maybe with and put things into context maybe with and put things into context maybe with that yeah or who who might change over that yeah or who who might change over that yeah or who who might change over time with more experience a robot really time with more experience a robot really time with more experience a robot really just like just like just like regurgitates things entrenches them regurgitates things entrenches them regurgitates things entrenches them could influence other people could influence other people could influence other people and I mean I think that's terrible well and I mean I think that's terrible well and I mean I think that's terrible well I think there's a difficult challenge I think there's a difficult challenge I think there's a difficult challenge here is because even the premise you here is because even the premise you here is because even the premise you started with that essentially racism is started with that essentially racism is started with that essentially racism is bad bad bad um I think we live in a society today

um I think we live in a society today um I think we live in a society today where the definition of racism is where the definition of racism is where the definition of racism is different between different people some different between different people some different between different people some people say that it's not enough not to people say that it's not enough not to people say that it's not enough not to be racist some people say you have to be be racist some people say you have to be be racist some people say you have to be anti-racist so you have to you have to anti-racist so you have to you have to anti-racist so you have to you have to have a robot that constantly calls out have a robot that constantly calls out have a robot that constantly calls out like like like calls you out on your uh implicit racism calls you out on your uh implicit racism calls you out on your uh implicit racism I would love that I would love that I would love that I would love that I would love that I would love that robot but like maybe it maybe it's these robot but like maybe it maybe it's these robot but like maybe it maybe it's these well I don't know if you love it because well I don't know if you love it because well I don't know if you love it because maybe you'll you'll see racism and maybe you'll you'll see racism and maybe you'll you'll see racism and things that aren't racist and then things that aren't racist and then things that aren't racist and then you're arguing with a robot your robot you're arguing with a robot your robot you're arguing with a robot your robot starts going to races I'm not I'm not starts going to races I'm not I'm not starts going to races I'm not I'm not exactly sure that I mean it's a it's a exactly sure that I mean it's a it's a exactly sure that I mean it's a it's a tricky thing I guess I'm saying that um tricky thing I guess I'm saying that um tricky thing I guess I'm saying that um the line is not obvious especially in the line is not obvious especially in the line is not obvious especially in this heated discussion where we have a this heated discussion where we have a this heated discussion where we have a lot of identity politics of what what is lot of identity politics of what what is lot of identity politics of what what is harmful to different groups and so on harmful to different groups and so on harmful to different groups and so on yeah it feels diff it feels like a yeah it feels diff it feels like a yeah it feels diff it feels like a the broader question here is should a the broader question here is should a the broader question here is should a social robotics company be solving social robotics company be solving social robotics company be solving or being part of solving the issues of or being part of solving the issues of or being part of solving the issues of society well okay I think it's the same society well okay I think it's the same society well okay I think it's the same question as should I as an individual be question as should I as an individual be question as should I as an individual be responsible for knowing everything in responsible for knowing everything in responsible for knowing everything in advance and saying all the right things advance and saying all the right things advance and saying all the right things and the answer to that is and the answer to that is and the answer to that is yes I am responsible yes I am responsible yes I am responsible but I'm not going to get it perfect and but I'm not going to get it perfect and but I'm not going to get it perfect and then the question is how do we deal with then the question is how do we deal with then the question is how do we deal with that and so as a person how I aspire to

that and so as a person how I aspire to that and so as a person how I aspire to deal with that is deal with that is deal with that is when I do inevitably make a mistake when I do inevitably make a mistake when I do inevitably make a mistake because I have blind spots because I have blind spots because I have blind spots and people get angry and people get angry and people get angry I don't take that personally and I I don't take that personally and I I don't take that personally and I listen to what's behind the anger and it listen to what's behind the anger and it listen to what's behind the anger and it can even happen that like maybe I'll can even happen that like maybe I'll can even happen that like maybe I'll tweet something that's well intentioned tweet something that's well intentioned tweet something that's well intentioned and and and one you know one group of people starts one you know one group of people starts one you know one group of people starts yelling at me and then I change it the yelling at me and then I change it the yelling at me and then I change it the way that they said and then another way that they said and then another way that they said and then another group of people starts yelling at me group of people starts yelling at me group of people starts yelling at me which has happened this this happened to which has happened this this happened to which has happened this this happened to me actually me actually me actually um around in my talks I talk about um around in my talks I talk about um around in my talks I talk about robots that are used in autism therapy robots that are used in autism therapy robots that are used in autism therapy and so whether to say a child with and so whether to say a child with and so whether to say a child with autism or an autistic child is super autism or an autistic child is super autism or an autistic child is super controversial and a lot of autistic controversial and a lot of autistic controversial and a lot of autistic people prefer to be referred to as people prefer to be referred to as people prefer to be referred to as autistic people and a lot of parents of autistic people and a lot of parents of autistic people and a lot of parents of autistic children prefer child with autistic children prefer child with autistic children prefer child with autism and then there's they disagree so autism and then there's they disagree so autism and then there's they disagree so so I've gotten yelled at from both sides so I've gotten yelled at from both sides so I've gotten yelled at from both sides and I think I'm still resp I'm and I think I'm still resp I'm and I think I'm still resp I'm responsible even if I can't get it right responsible even if I can't get it right responsible even if I can't get it right I don't know if that makes sense like I don't know if that makes sense like I don't know if that makes sense like it's a responsibility thing and I'm I can be as well intentioned as and I'm I can be as well intentioned as I want and I'm still going to make I want and I'm still going to make I want and I'm still going to make mistakes and that is part of the mistakes and that is part of the mistakes and that is part of the existing power structures that exist and existing power structures that exist and existing power structures that exist and that's something that I accept and you that's something that I accept and you that's something that I accept and you accept being attacked from both sides accept being attacked from both sides accept being attacked from both sides and grow from it and learn from it yeah and grow from it and learn from it yeah and grow from it and learn from it yeah but the the danger is that after being but the the danger is that after being but the the danger is that after being attacked assume you don't get canceled attacked assume you don't get canceled attacked assume you don't get canceled AKA completely removed from your ability AKA completely removed from your ability AKA completely removed from your ability to to tweet to to tweet to to tweet uh you might become jaded and not want

uh you might become jaded and not want uh you might become jaded and not want to talk about autism anymore I don't and to talk about autism anymore I don't and to talk about autism anymore I don't and I didn't I mean it's happened to me and I didn't I mean it's happened to me and I didn't I mean it's happened to me and that's what I did was I listened to that's what I did was I listened to that's what I did was I listened to those sides and I chose those sides and I chose those sides and I chose I tried to get information I tried to get information I tried to get information and then I I decided that I was going to and then I I decided that I was going to and then I I decided that I was going to use autistic children and now moving forward with that like I and now moving forward with that like I don't know for now right for now yeah don't know for now right for now yeah don't know for now right for now yeah until until I get updated information until until I get updated information until until I get updated information and I'm never gonna get anything perfect and I'm never gonna get anything perfect and I'm never gonna get anything perfect but I'm making choices and I'm moving but I'm making choices and I'm moving but I'm making choices and I'm moving forward because being a coward and like forward because being a coward and like forward because being a coward and like just retreating from that just retreating from that just retreating from that I think but here's the problem you're a I think but here's the problem you're a I think but here's the problem you're a very smart person and an individual very smart person and an individual very smart person and an individual researcher thinker an intellectual so researcher thinker an intellectual so researcher thinker an intellectual so that's the right thing for you to do the that's the right thing for you to do the that's the right thing for you to do the hard thing is one as a company imagine hard thing is one as a company imagine hard thing is one as a company imagine you had a PR team you had a PR team you had a PR team I said Kate like this you should we hate I said Kate like this you should we hate I said Kate like this you should we hate yeah I mean just well if you're If you yeah I mean just well if you're If you yeah I mean just well if you're If you hired PR people like obviously they hired PR people like obviously they hired PR people like obviously they would see that and they'd be like well would see that and they'd be like well would see that and they'd be like well maybe don't bring up autism maybe don't maybe don't bring up autism maybe don't maybe don't bring up autism maybe don't bring up these topics you're you're bring up these topics you're you're bring up these topics you're you're getting attacked it's bad for your brand getting attacked it's bad for your brand getting attacked it's bad for your brand they'll say the brand word they'll be uh they'll say the brand word they'll be uh they'll say the brand word they'll be uh you know if you look at different you know if you look at different you know if you look at different demographics that are inspired by your demographics that are inspired by your demographics that are inspired by your work I think it's insensitive to them work I think it's insensitive to them work I think it's insensitive to them let's not mention this anymore like let's not mention this anymore like let's not mention this anymore like there's this kind of pressure that all there's this kind of pressure that all there's this kind of pressure that all of a sudden you or of a sudden you or of a sudden you or or you do sub-optimal decisions you take or you do sub-optimal decisions you take or you do sub-optimal decisions you take a kind of poll a kind of poll a kind of poll um again it's looking at the past versus

um again it's looking at the past versus um again it's looking at the past versus the future all those kinds of things and the future all those kinds of things and the future all those kinds of things and it it becomes difficult in the same way it it becomes difficult in the same way it it becomes difficult in the same way that is difficult for social media that is difficult for social media that is difficult for social media companies to to figure out like whose companies to to figure out like whose companies to to figure out like whose sensor sensor sensor who'd recommend who'd recommend who'd recommend this is ultimately a question about this is ultimately a question about this is ultimately a question about leadership honestly like the way that I leadership honestly like the way that I leadership honestly like the way that I see leadership because right now see leadership because right now see leadership because right now the thing that bothers me about the thing that bothers me about the thing that bothers me about institutions and a lot of people who run institutions and a lot of people who run institutions and a lot of people who run current institutions current institutions current institutions is that their main focus is protecting is that their main focus is protecting is that their main focus is protecting the institution or protecting themselves the institution or protecting themselves the institution or protecting themselves personally that is bad leadership personally that is bad leadership personally that is bad leadership because it means you cannot have because it means you cannot have because it means you cannot have integrity you cannot lead with integrity integrity you cannot lead with integrity integrity you cannot lead with integrity and it makes sense because like and it makes sense because like and it makes sense because like obviously if you're the type of leader obviously if you're the type of leader obviously if you're the type of leader who immediately blows up the institution who immediately blows up the institution who immediately blows up the institution you're leading then that doesn't exist you're leading then that doesn't exist you're leading then that doesn't exist anymore and maybe that's why we don't anymore and maybe that's why we don't anymore and maybe that's why we don't have any good leaders anymore because have any good leaders anymore because have any good leaders anymore because they had integrity and they didn't put they had integrity and they didn't put they had integrity and they didn't put you know the survival of the institution you know the survival of the institution you know the survival of the institution first but I feel like you have to I just first but I feel like you have to I just first but I feel like you have to I just to be a good leader you have to be responsible and understand that with be responsible and understand that with great power comes great responsibility great power comes great responsibility great power comes great responsibility you have to be humble and you have to you have to be humble and you have to you have to be humble and you have to listen and you have to learn you can't listen and you have to learn you can't listen and you have to learn you can't get defensive and you cannot put your get defensive and you cannot put your get defensive and you cannot put your own protection before other things yeah own protection before other things yeah own protection before other things yeah take risks where you might lose your job take risks where you might lose your job take risks where you might lose your job uh you might lose your well-being uh you might lose your well-being uh you might lose your well-being because of because of because of um um um because for in in the process of

because for in in the process of because for in in the process of standing for the principles for the standing for the principles for the standing for the principles for the things you think are right to do yeah things you think are right to do yeah things you think are right to do yeah based on the things based on the things based on the things you've like based on learning from like you've like based on learning from like you've like based on learning from like listening to people and learning from listening to people and learning from listening to people and learning from what they what they feel and the same what they what they feel and the same what they what they feel and the same goes from the institution yeah goes from the institution yeah goes from the institution yeah yeah but I ultimately actually believe yeah but I ultimately actually believe yeah but I ultimately actually believe that those kinds of companies that those kinds of companies that those kinds of companies and countries succeed that have leaders and countries succeed that have leaders and countries succeed that have leaders like that you should run for president like that you should run for president like that you should run for president no thanks yeah that's maybe the problem no thanks yeah that's maybe the problem no thanks yeah that's maybe the problem like the people who have good ideas like the people who have good ideas like the people who have good ideas about leadership they're like yeah no about leadership they're like yeah no about leadership they're like yeah no this is why I don't know why I'm not this is why I don't know why I'm not this is why I don't know why I'm not running a company it's been I think running a company it's been I think running a company it's been I think three years since the Jeffrey Epstein three years since the Jeffrey Epstein three years since the Jeffrey Epstein controversy at MIT MIT media lab Joy Edo controversy at MIT MIT media lab Joy Edo controversy at MIT MIT media lab Joy Edo the head of uh the media lab resigned the head of uh the media lab resigned the head of uh the media lab resigned and I think at that time you were an and I think at that time you were an and I think at that time you were an opinion article about it opinion article about it opinion article about it so just looking back a few years have so just looking back a few years have so just looking back a few years have passed what passed what passed what what have you learned about human nature what have you learned about human nature what have you learned about human nature um um um from the fact that somebody like Jeffrey from the fact that somebody like Jeffrey from the fact that somebody like Jeffrey Epstein Epstein Epstein found his way inside MIT it's a really good question what have I it's a really good question what have I learned about human nature well there's well there's there's how did this problem come about there's how did this problem come about there's how did this problem come about and then there's what was the reaction and then there's what was the reaction and then there's what was the reaction to this problem and to it becoming

to this problem and to it becoming to this problem and to it becoming public public public and in the reaction were that were that sometimes cowards are worse than sometimes cowards are worse than sometimes cowards are worse than assholes wow I'm really oh wow I'm really oh I mean that's a really powerful I mean that's a really powerful I mean that's a really powerful statement statement statement I think because the assholes at least I think because the assholes at least I think because the assholes at least you know what you're dealing with you know what you're dealing with you know what you're dealing with they have integrity in a way they're they have integrity in a way they're they have integrity in a way they're just living out their asshole values just living out their asshole values just living out their asshole values yeah and the cowards are the ones that yeah and the cowards are the ones that yeah and the cowards are the ones that you have to watch out for and this comes you have to watch out for and this comes you have to watch out for and this comes back to back to back to people protecting themselves over people protecting themselves over people protecting themselves over doing the right thing doing the right thing doing the right thing um um um they'll throw others under the bus they'll throw others under the bus they'll throw others under the bus is there some sense that not enough is there some sense that not enough is there some sense that not enough people took responsibility people took responsibility people took responsibility for sure and I mean for sure and I mean for sure and I mean wanna sugarcoat at all wanna sugarcoat at all wanna sugarcoat at all what Joey Ito did I mean what Joey Ito did I mean what Joey Ito did I mean I think it's gross that he took money I think it's gross that he took money I think it's gross that he took money from Jeffrey Epstein I believe him that from Jeffrey Epstein I believe him that from Jeffrey Epstein I believe him that he didn't know about the bad bad stuff he didn't know about the bad bad stuff he didn't know about the bad bad stuff but I've been in those circles with but I've been in those circles with but I've been in those circles with those like public intellectual dudes those like public intellectual dudes those like public intellectual dudes that he was hanging out with and that he was hanging out with and that he was hanging out with and any woman in those circles like the 10 any woman in those circles like the 10 any woman in those circles like the 10 zillion red flags just the whole zillion red flags just the whole zillion red flags just the whole environment was so misogynist like environment was so misogynist like environment was so misogynist like and so personally because Joey like was and so personally because Joey like was and so personally because Joey like was a great boss and a great friend it a great boss and a great friend it a great boss and a great friend it I was really disappointed that he

I was really disappointed that he I was really disappointed that he ignored that in favor of raising money ignored that in favor of raising money ignored that in favor of raising money um um um and I think that it was right for him to and I think that it was right for him to and I think that it was right for him to resign resign resign in the face of that but one of the things that he did that no one of the things that he did that no many others didn't was he came forward many others didn't was he came forward many others didn't was he came forward about it and he took responsibility it's just interesting the other thing I it's just interesting the other thing I learned about human nature okay I'm learned about human nature okay I'm learned about human nature okay I'm gonna go on on a tangent but I'll come gonna go on on a tangent but I'll come gonna go on on a tangent but I'll come back I promise so I once saw this tweet back I promise so I once saw this tweet back I promise so I once saw this tweet from someone or was a Twitter thread from someone or was a Twitter thread from someone or was a Twitter thread from someone who worked at a homeless from someone who worked at a homeless from someone who worked at a homeless shelter and he said that shelter and he said that shelter and he said that when he started working there he noticed when he started working there he noticed when he started working there he noticed that people would often come in and use that people would often come in and use that people would often come in and use the bathroom and they would just trash the bathroom and they would just trash the bathroom and they would just trash the entire bathroom like rip things out the entire bathroom like rip things out the entire bathroom like rip things out of the walls like toilet paper on the of the walls like toilet paper on the of the walls like toilet paper on the ground and he asked someone who had been ground and he asked someone who had been ground and he asked someone who had been there longer like why do they do this there longer like why do they do this there longer like why do they do this why do the homeless people come in and why do the homeless people come in and why do the homeless people come in and trash the bathroom and he was told it's trash the bathroom and he was told it's trash the bathroom and he was told it's because it's the only thing in their because it's the only thing in their because it's the only thing in their lives that they have control over lives that they have control over lives that they have control over and I feel like and I feel like and I feel like sometimes when it comes to just the the mobbing response that just the the mobbing response that happens in the wake of happens in the wake of happens in the wake of some harm that was caused some harm that was caused some harm that was caused if you can't Target the person who

if you can't Target the person who if you can't Target the person who actually caused the harm who was Epstein actually caused the harm who was Epstein actually caused the harm who was Epstein you will go as many circles out as you you will go as many circles out as you you will go as many circles out as you can until you find the person that you can until you find the person that you can until you find the person that you have power over and you have control have power over and you have control have power over and you have control over and then you will trash that and it over and then you will trash that and it over and then you will trash that and it makes sense that people do this it's makes sense that people do this it's makes sense that people do this it's again it's a human nature thing of again it's a human nature thing of again it's a human nature thing of course you're going to focus all your course you're going to focus all your course you're going to focus all your energy because you feel helpless and energy because you feel helpless and energy because you feel helpless and enraged and you and it's unfair and you enraged and you and it's unfair and you enraged and you and it's unfair and you have no other power have no other power have no other power you're going to focus all of your energy you're going to focus all of your energy you're going to focus all of your energy on someone who's so far removed from the on someone who's so far removed from the on someone who's so far removed from the problem that that's not even an problem that that's not even an problem that that's not even an efficient solution efficient solution efficient solution and the problem is often the the first and the problem is often the the first and the problem is often the the first person you find is the one that has person you find is the one that has person you find is the one that has Integrity sufficient Integrity to take Integrity sufficient Integrity to take Integrity sufficient Integrity to take responsibility yeah and it's why my responsibility yeah and it's why my responsibility yeah and it's why my husband always says he's he is a liberal husband always says he's he is a liberal husband always says he's he is a liberal but he's always like but he's always like but he's always like when liberals form a firing squad they when liberals form a firing squad they when liberals form a firing squad they stand in a circle because you know that stand in a circle because you know that stand in a circle because you know that your friends are going to listen to you your friends are going to listen to you your friends are going to listen to you so you criticize them you're not going so you criticize them you're not going so you criticize them you're not going to be able to convince someone across to be able to convince someone across to be able to convince someone across the aisle the aisle the aisle but see in that situation what I had but see in that situation what I had but see in that situation what I had hoped hoped hoped is the people in the farther in that is the people in the farther in that is the people in the farther in that situation any situation of that sort the situation any situation of that sort the situation any situation of that sort the people that are farther out in the people that are farther out in the people that are farther out in the circles circles circles uh stand up yes and like it also take uh stand up yes and like it also take uh stand up yes and like it also take some responsibility for the broader some responsibility for the broader some responsibility for the broader picture of human nature versus like picture of human nature versus like picture of human nature versus like specific situation specific situation specific situation but also but also but also take some responsibility take some responsibility take some responsibility and um and um and um but also defend the people involved as

but also defend the people involved as but also defend the people involved as flawed not you know like no no nothing flawed not you know like no no nothing flawed not you know like no no nothing like like this people fucked up like you like like this people fucked up like you like like this people fucked up like you said there's a lot of red flags that said there's a lot of red flags that said there's a lot of red flags that people just ignored for the sake of people just ignored for the sake of people just ignored for the sake of money in this particular case money in this particular case money in this particular case but also like be transparent in public but also like be transparent in public but also like be transparent in public about it and spread the responsibility about it and spread the responsibility about it and spread the responsibility across large number of people such that across large number of people such that across large number of people such that you learn a lesson from it you learn a lesson from it you learn a lesson from it institutionally institutionally institutionally yeah it was a systems problem it wasn't yeah it was a systems problem it wasn't yeah it was a systems problem it wasn't a one individual problem and I feel like a one individual problem and I feel like a one individual problem and I feel like currently currently currently because uh Joey took like resigned because uh Joey took like resigned because uh Joey took like resigned because of it or essentially fired because of it or essentially fired because of it or essentially fired pressured out because of it uh MIT can pressured out because of it uh MIT can pressured out because of it uh MIT can pretend like oh we didn't we didn't know pretend like oh we didn't we didn't know pretend like oh we didn't we didn't know anything we wasn't part bad leadership anything we wasn't part bad leadership anything we wasn't part bad leadership again because again because again because when you are at the top of an when you are at the top of an when you are at the top of an institution that much power and you were institution that much power and you were institution that much power and you were complicit in what happened which they complicit in what happened which they complicit in what happened which they were were were like come on there's no way that they like come on there's no way that they like come on there's no way that they didn't know that this was happening so I didn't know that this was happening so I didn't know that this was happening so I like to not stand up and take like to not stand up and take like to not stand up and take responsibility responsibility responsibility I think it's bad leadership do you I think it's bad leadership do you I think it's bad leadership do you understand why Epstein was able to um um outside of MIT he was able to make a lot outside of MIT he was able to make a lot outside of MIT he was able to make a lot of friends of friends of friends with a lot of powerful people does that with a lot of powerful people does that with a lot of powerful people does that make sense to you why was he able to get make sense to you why was he able to get make sense to you why was he able to get in these rooms befriend these people but

in these rooms befriend these people but in these rooms befriend these people but friend people that I don't know friend people that I don't know friend people that I don't know personally but I think a lot of them personally but I think a lot of them personally but I think a lot of them indirectly I know as being good people indirectly I know as being good people indirectly I know as being good people smart people smart people smart people why would they let Jeffrey Epstein into why would they let Jeffrey Epstein into why would they let Jeffrey Epstein into the into their office have a discussion the into their office have a discussion the into their office have a discussion with them what do you understand about with them what do you understand about with them what do you understand about human nature from that well human nature from that well human nature from that well so I never met Epstein or I mean so I never met Epstein or I mean so I never met Epstein or I mean I've met some of the people who I've met some of the people who I've met some of the people who interacted with him but I was never like interacted with him but I was never like interacted with him but I was never like I never saw him in action I don't know I never saw him in action I don't know I never saw him in action I don't know how charismatic he was or what that was how charismatic he was or what that was how charismatic he was or what that was but I do think that sometimes the simple but I do think that sometimes the simple but I do think that sometimes the simple answer is the more likely one and answer is the more likely one and answer is the more likely one and from my understanding what he would do from my understanding what he would do from my understanding what he would do is he was kind of a grift a social is he was kind of a grift a social is he was kind of a grift a social grifter like grifter like grifter like you know those people who will you know those people who will you know those people who will you must get this because you're famous you must get this because you're famous you must get this because you're famous you must get people coming to you and you must get people coming to you and you must get people coming to you and being like Oh I know your friends so and being like Oh I know your friends so and being like Oh I know your friends so and so in order to get cred with you so in order to get cred with you so in order to get cred with you um um um I think he just I think he just I think he just convinced some people who were trusted convinced some people who were trusted convinced some people who were trusted in a network that he was a great guy and in a network that he was a great guy and in a network that he was a great guy and that you know whatever I think at that that you know whatever I think at that that you know whatever I think at that point because at that point he had had point because at that point he had had point because at that point he had had like a what a commission prior but it like a what a commission prior but it like a what a commission prior but it was a one-off thing it wasn't clear that was a one-off thing it wasn't clear that was a one-off thing it wasn't clear that there was this other thing that was that there was this other thing that was that there was this other thing that was that and most people probably don't check and most people probably don't check and most people probably don't check yeah and most people don't check like yeah and most people don't check like yeah and most people don't check like you're on an event you meet this guy I you're on an event you meet this guy I you're on an event you meet this guy I don't know maybe people do check when

don't know maybe people do check when don't know maybe people do check when they're that powerful and wealthy or they're that powerful and wealthy or they're that powerful and wealthy or maybe they don't I have no idea no maybe they don't I have no idea no maybe they don't I have no idea no they're just stupid I I mean and they're they're just stupid I I mean and they're they're just stupid I I mean and they're not like not like not like all right well like does anyone check all right well like does anyone check all right well like does anyone check anything about me because I've walked anything about me because I've walked anything about me because I've walked into some some of the richest the most into some some of the richest the most into some some of the richest the most popular powerful people in the world and popular powerful people in the world and popular powerful people in the world and nobody like asks questions like who the nobody like asks questions like who the nobody like asks questions like who the fuck is this guy like yeah like nobody fuck is this guy like yeah like nobody fuck is this guy like yeah like nobody asks those questions it's it's asks those questions it's it's asks those questions it's it's interesting I I would think like there interesting I I would think like there interesting I I would think like there would be more security or something like would be more security or something like would be more security or something like there there it really isn't I think a there there it really isn't I think a there there it really isn't I think a lot of it has to do well my hope is in lot of it has to do well my hope is in lot of it has to do well my hope is in my case has to do with like people can my case has to do with like people can my case has to do with like people can sense that this is a good person but sense that this is a good person but sense that this is a good person but if that's the case then they can surely if that's the case then they can surely if that's the case then they can surely then a human being can use charisma then a human being can use charisma then a human being can use charisma to infiltrate yeah just being just to infiltrate yeah just being just to infiltrate yeah just being just saying the right way of people vouching saying the right way of people vouching saying the right way of people vouching for you within that type of network like for you within that type of network like for you within that type of network like once you yeah once you have someone once you yeah once you have someone once you yeah once you have someone powerful vouching for you who someone powerful vouching for you who someone powerful vouching for you who someone else trusts then you know else trusts then you know else trusts then you know you're in so how do you avoid something like that so how do you avoid something like that if you're MIT if you're Harvard if if you're MIT if you're Harvard if if you're MIT if you're Harvard if you're in any of these institutions well you're in any of these institutions well you're in any of these institutions well I mean first of all you have to do your I mean first of all you have to do your I mean first of all you have to do your homework before you take money from homework before you take money from homework before you take money from someone someone someone um like I think I think that's required um like I think I think that's required um like I think I think that's required but I think you know I think Joey did do but I think you know I think Joey did do but I think you know I think Joey did do his homework I think he did and I think his homework I think he did and I think his homework I think he did and I think at the time that he took money at the time that he took money at the time that he took money there was the one conviction and not there was the one conviction and not there was the one conviction and not like the later thing and I think that like the later thing and I think that like the later thing and I think that the story at that time was that

the story at that time was that the story at that time was that he didn't know she was underage and lava he didn't know she was underage and lava he didn't know she was underage and lava and or whatever it was mistaken Joey and or whatever it was mistaken Joey and or whatever it was mistaken Joey always believed in Redemption for people always believed in Redemption for people always believed in Redemption for people and that people can change and that they and that people can change and that they and that people can change and that they can genuinely regret and like learn and can genuinely regret and like learn and can genuinely regret and like learn and and move on and he was a big believer in and move on and he was a big believer in and move on and he was a big believer in that so I could totally see him being that so I could totally see him being that so I could totally see him being like well I'm not gonna exclude him like well I'm not gonna exclude him like well I'm not gonna exclude him because of this thing because of this thing because of this thing and because other people are vouching and because other people are vouching and because other people are vouching for him so for him so for him so and and and just to be clear we're now talking about just to be clear we're now talking about just to be clear we're now talking about the set of people who I think Joey the set of people who I think Joey the set of people who I think Joey belonged to who did not like go to the belonged to who did not like go to the belonged to who did not like go to the island and have sex with underage girls island and have sex with underage girls island and have sex with underage girls because that's a whole other set of because that's a whole other set of because that's a whole other set of people who like people who like people who like were powerful and like were part of that were powerful and like were part of that were powerful and like were part of that Network and who knew and participated Network and who knew and participated Network and who knew and participated and and so like I distinguish between and and so like I distinguish between and and so like I distinguish between people who got taken in who didn't know people who got taken in who didn't know people who got taken in who didn't know that that was happening and people who that that was happening and people who that that was happening and people who knew I wonder what the different circles knew I wonder what the different circles knew I wonder what the different circles look like so like people that went to look like so like people that went to look like so like people that went to the island the island the island and then didn't do anything it didn't and then didn't do anything it didn't and then didn't do anything it didn't see anything didn't know about anything see anything didn't know about anything see anything didn't know about anything versus the people that did something and versus the people that did something and versus the people that did something and then there's people who heard rumors then there's people who heard rumors then there's people who heard rumors maybe and what do you do with rumors maybe and what do you do with rumors maybe and what do you do with rumors like isn't there isn't there people that like isn't there isn't there people that like isn't there isn't there people that uh heard rumors about Bill Cosby for the uh heard rumors about Bill Cosby for the uh heard rumors about Bill Cosby for the longest time longest time longest time for like for the longest like whenever for like for the longest like whenever for like for the longest like whenever that happened that happened that happened like all these people came out of the like all these people came out of the like all these people came out of the woodwork like everybody kind of knew woodwork like everybody kind of knew woodwork like everybody kind of knew um I mean this it's like all right so um I mean this it's like all right so um I mean this it's like all right so what are you supposed to do with rumors what are you supposed to do with rumors what are you supposed to do with rumors like what uh I think the other way to like what uh I think the other way to like what uh I think the other way to put is red flags as you were saying yeah

put is red flags as you were saying yeah put is red flags as you were saying yeah and like I can tell you that those and like I can tell you that those and like I can tell you that those circles like there were red flags circles like there were red flags circles like there were red flags without me even hearing any rumors about without me even hearing any rumors about without me even hearing any rumors about anything ever like I was already like anything ever like I was already like anything ever like I was already like um um um there are not a lot of women here which there are not a lot of women here which there are not a lot of women here which is a bad sign is a bad sign is a bad sign isn't there a lot of places where isn't there a lot of places where isn't there a lot of places where there's not a lot of women and that there's not a lot of women and that there's not a lot of women and that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad sign doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad sign doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad sign there are if it's like a pipeline there are if it's like a pipeline there are if it's like a pipeline problem where it's like I don't know technology law clinic that I don't know technology law clinic that only gets like male lawyers because only gets like male lawyers because only gets like male lawyers because there's all there's not a lot of women there's all there's not a lot of women there's all there's not a lot of women you know applicants in the pool but you know applicants in the pool but you know applicants in the pool but there's some aspect of this situation there's some aspect of this situation there's some aspect of this situation that like there should be more women that like there should be more women that like there should be more women here oh yeah you've uh you've uh actually I'd love to ask you about this actually I'd love to ask you about this actually I'd love to ask you about this because uh you have strong opinions because uh you have strong opinions because uh you have strong opinions about Richard stallman about Richard stallman about Richard stallman is that do you still have those strong is that do you still have those strong is that do you still have those strong opinions look all I need to say is that opinions look all I need to say is that opinions look all I need to say is that he my friend who's a law professor yeah he my friend who's a law professor yeah he my friend who's a law professor yeah she shook his hand and he licked her arm she shook his hand and he licked her arm she shook his hand and he licked her arm from wrist to elbow and it certainly from wrist to elbow and it certainly from wrist to elbow and it certainly wasn't appropriate at that time wasn't appropriate at that time wasn't appropriate at that time what about if you're like what about if you're like what about if you're like an incredibly weird person an incredibly weird person an incredibly weird person okay the lot of lot of Divergence Divergence Divergence and everywhere yes we need to accept that people are we need to accept that people are different that people don't understand different that people don't understand different that people don't understand social conventions the same way but one

social conventions the same way but one social conventions the same way but one of the things that I've learned about of the things that I've learned about of the things that I've learned about neurodivergence is that neurodivergence is that neurodivergence is that women are often expected or taught to mask their expected or taught to mask their neurodivergence and kind of fit in and neurodivergence and kind of fit in and neurodivergence and kind of fit in and men are accommodated and excused and I men are accommodated and excused and I men are accommodated and excused and I don't think that don't think that don't think that being neurodivergent gives you a license being neurodivergent gives you a license being neurodivergent gives you a license to be an asshole like you can be a weird to be an asshole like you can be a weird to be an asshole like you can be a weird person and you can still learn that it's person and you can still learn that it's person and you can still learn that it's not okay to lick someone's arm not okay to lick someone's arm not okay to lick someone's arm yeah there's it's a balance like women yeah there's it's a balance like women yeah there's it's a balance like women should be allowed to be a little weirder should be allowed to be a little weirder should be allowed to be a little weirder and men should be less weird because I and men should be less weird because I and men should be less weird because I think I think there's uh because I think I think there's uh because I think I think there's uh because I you're one of the people I think you're one of the people I think you're one of the people I think tweeting that tweeting that tweeting that what made me because I wanted to talk to what made me because I wanted to talk to what made me because I wanted to talk to Richard Stoneman on the podcast Richard Stoneman on the podcast Richard Stoneman on the podcast about because I didn't have a context about because I didn't have a context about because I didn't have a context because I wanted to talk to him because because I wanted to talk to him because because I wanted to talk to him because he's you know free software he's very he's you know free software he's very he's you know free software he's very weird weird weird in interesting good ways in the world of in interesting good ways in the world of in interesting good ways in the world of computer science computer science computer science he's also weird in that you know when he he's also weird in that you know when he he's also weird in that you know when he gives a talk he'll be like uh like gives a talk he'll be like uh like gives a talk he'll be like uh like picking at his feet and eating the skin picking at his feet and eating the skin picking at his feet and eating the skin off his feet right that he's known for off his feet right that he's known for off his feet right that he's known for these extremely kind of these extremely kind of these extremely kind of how else do you put it I don't know how how else do you put it I don't know how how else do you put it I don't know how to put it but then there was um to put it but then there was um to put it but then there was um something that happened to him in something that happened to him in something that happened to him in conversations on this thread related to conversations on this thread related to conversations on this thread related to Epstein yeah which I was torn about Epstein yeah which I was torn about Epstein yeah which I was torn about because I felt it's similar to Joy uh because I felt it's similar to Joy uh because I felt it's similar to Joy uh you know it's like I felt he was

you know it's like I felt he was you know it's like I felt he was maligned like uh people were looking for maligned like uh people were looking for maligned like uh people were looking for somebody to get angry at so he he was somebody to get angry at so he he was somebody to get angry at so he he was inappropriate but the inappropriate but the inappropriate but the um um um I didn't like the cowardice more like I I didn't like the cowardice more like I I didn't like the cowardice more like I I set aside I set aside I set aside his his situation and we could discuss his his situation and we could discuss his his situation and we could discuss it but the the cowardice on mit's part it but the the cowardice on mit's part it but the the cowardice on mit's part and this is me saying it about the way and this is me saying it about the way and this is me saying it about the way they treated that whole situation oh they treated that whole situation oh they treated that whole situation oh they're always they're always they're always copied anything they should try to make copied anything they should try to make copied anything they should try to make the problem go away yeah so that it was the problem go away yeah so that it was the problem go away yeah so that it was it was about yeah exactly making the it was about yeah exactly making the it was about yeah exactly making the conversation I think he should have left conversation I think he should have left conversation I think he should have left the mailing the mailing the mailing they shouldn't have he shouldn't have they shouldn't have he shouldn't have they shouldn't have he shouldn't have been part of the mailing well that's been part of the mailing well that's been part of the mailing well that's probably true also but I think I think probably true also but I think I think probably true also but I think I think what what bothered me what always what what bothered me what always what what bothered me what always bothers me in these mailing list bothers me in these mailing list bothers me in these mailing list situations or Twitter situations like situations or Twitter situations like situations or Twitter situations like if you say something if you say something if you say something [Music] [Music] [Music] that's hurtful to people or makes people that's hurtful to people or makes people that's hurtful to people or makes people angry and then people start yelling at angry and then people start yelling at angry and then people start yelling at you you you maybe they shouldn't be yelling maybe they shouldn't be yelling maybe they shouldn't be yelling maybe they are yelling because maybe they are yelling because maybe they are yelling because again you're the only point of power again you're the only point of power again you're the only point of power they have they have they have maybe maybe it's okay that you're maybe maybe it's okay that you're maybe maybe it's okay that you're yelling whatever it is like yelling whatever it is like yelling whatever it is like it's your response to that that matters it's your response to that that matters it's your response to that that matters and I think that I just have a lot of and I think that I just have a lot of and I think that I just have a lot of respect for people who can say who can say oh people are angry oh people are angry oh people are angry there's a reason they're angry let me there's a reason they're angry let me there's a reason they're angry let me find out what that reason is and learn find out what that reason is and learn find out what that reason is and learn more about it more about it more about it it doesn't mean that I'm wrong it

it doesn't mean that I'm wrong it it doesn't mean that I'm wrong it doesn't mean that I'm bad doesn't mean doesn't mean that I'm bad doesn't mean doesn't mean that I'm bad doesn't mean that I'm ill-intentioned but that I'm ill-intentioned but that I'm ill-intentioned but why are they angry I want to understand why are they angry I want to understand why are they angry I want to understand and then once you understand you can and then once you understand you can and then once you understand you can respond again with integrity and say respond again with integrity and say respond again with integrity and say actually I stand by what I said here's actually I stand by what I said here's actually I stand by what I said here's why or you can say actually I listened why or you can say actually I listened why or you can say actually I listened and here are some things I learned and here are some things I learned and here are some things I learned that's the kind of response I want to that's the kind of response I want to that's the kind of response I want to see from people and people like stallman see from people and people like stallman see from people and people like stallman do not respond that way they just like do not respond that way they just like do not respond that way they just like go into battle go into battle go into battle right like where it's obvious you you right like where it's obvious you you right like where it's obvious you you didn't listen yeah no not just in didn't listen yeah no not just in didn't listen yeah no not just in listening honestly that's to me as bad listening honestly that's to me as bad listening honestly that's to me as bad as the people who just apologize just as the people who just apologize just as the people who just apologize just because they are trying to make the because they are trying to make the because they are trying to make the problem go away of course problem go away of course problem go away of course all right so like if that's not supposed all right so like if that's not supposed all right so like if that's not supposed to be bad a good apology has to include to be bad a good apology has to include to be bad a good apology has to include understanding what you did wrong and in understanding what you did wrong and in understanding what you did wrong and in part standing up for the things you part standing up for the things you part standing up for the things you think you did right so yeah if there are think you did right so yeah if there are think you did right so yeah if there are those things yeah finding and then but those things yeah finding and then but those things yeah finding and then but you have to give you have to give you have to give you have to acknowledge you have to like you have to acknowledge you have to like you have to acknowledge you have to like give that hard hit to the ego that says give that hard hit to the ego that says give that hard hit to the ego that says I did something wrong yeah that I did something wrong yeah that I did something wrong yeah that definitely Richard stalma is not definitely Richard stalma is not definitely Richard stalma is not somebody who's somebody who's somebody who's capable of that kind of thing or hasn't capable of that kind of thing or hasn't capable of that kind of thing or hasn't given evidence of that kind of thing given evidence of that kind of thing given evidence of that kind of thing um but that was also even just your um but that was also even just your um but that was also even just your tweet I had to do a lot of thinking like different people from different walks of different people from different walks of life see red flags and different things life see red flags and different things life see red flags and different things yes and so yes and so yes and so things I find things I find things I find um um um as a as a man non-threatening and

as a as a man non-threatening and as a as a man non-threatening and hilarious hilarious hilarious are not necessarily are not necessarily are not necessarily um um um doesn't mean that they're doesn't mean that they're doesn't mean that they're aren't like deeply hurtful to others and aren't like deeply hurtful to others and aren't like deeply hurtful to others and I don't mean that in the social justice I don't mean that in the social justice I don't mean that in the social justice Warrior way but in a in a in a real Warrior way but in a in a in a real Warrior way but in a in a in a real world like people really have different world like people really have different world like people really have different experiences so I have to like really put experiences so I have to like really put experiences so I have to like really put things into context things into context things into context um I have to kind of listen to what um I have to kind of listen to what um I have to kind of listen to what people are saying put aside the emotion people are saying put aside the emotion people are saying put aside the emotion of what their emotion will do what of what their emotion will do what of what their emotion will do what you're saying it and try to keep the the you're saying it and try to keep the the you're saying it and try to keep the the facts of their experience and learn from facts of their experience and learn from facts of their experience and learn from it and because it's not just about the it and because it's not just about the it and because it's not just about the individual experience either it's not individual experience either it's not individual experience either it's not like oh you know my friend didn't have a like oh you know my friend didn't have a like oh you know my friend didn't have a sense of humor about being licked sense of humor about being licked sense of humor about being licked it's that she's been she's been it's that she's been she's been it's that she's been she's been metaphorically licked you know 57 times metaphorically licked you know 57 times metaphorically licked you know 57 times that week because she's an attractive that week because she's an attractive that week because she's an attractive law professor and she doesn't get taken law professor and she doesn't get taken law professor and she doesn't get taken and so like men walk through the world and so like men walk through the world and so like men walk through the world and it's impossible for them to even and it's impossible for them to even and it's impossible for them to even understand what it's like understand what it's like understand what it's like to have a different experience of the to have a different experience of the to have a different experience of the world and that's why it's so important world and that's why it's so important world and that's why it's so important to listen to people and believe people to listen to people and believe people to listen to people and believe people and believe that they're angry for a and believe that they're angry for a and believe that they're angry for a reason maybe you don't like their tone reason maybe you don't like their tone reason maybe you don't like their tone maybe you don't like that they're angry maybe you don't like that they're angry maybe you don't like that they're angry at you maybe you get defensive about at you maybe you get defensive about at you maybe you get defensive about that maybe you think that they should that maybe you think that they should that maybe you think that they should you know explain it to you you know explain it to you you know explain it to you but believe that they're angry for a but believe that they're angry for a but believe that they're angry for a reason and try to understand it yeah reason and try to understand it yeah reason and try to understand it yeah there's a deep truth there uh and an there's a deep truth there uh and an there's a deep truth there uh and an opportunity for you to become a better opportunity for you to become a better opportunity for you to become a better person can I ask you a question

can I ask you a question why haven't you been doing that for two why haven't you been doing that for two why haven't you been doing that for two hours three hours now three hours now uh let me ask you about uh Elaine uh let me ask you about uh Elaine uh let me ask you about uh Elaine Maxwell she's been saying that she's an Maxwell she's been saying that she's an Maxwell she's been saying that she's an innocent victim innocent victim innocent victim uh is she an innocent victim or is she uh is she an innocent victim or is she uh is she an innocent victim or is she uh evil and equally responsible like uh evil and equally responsible like uh evil and equally responsible like Jeffrey Epstein now I'm asking far away Jeffrey Epstein now I'm asking far away Jeffrey Epstein now I'm asking far away from any MIT things and more just your from any MIT things and more just your from any MIT things and more just your sense of the whole situation I haven't sense of the whole situation I haven't sense of the whole situation I haven't been following it so I don't know the been following it so I don't know the been following it so I don't know the facts of the situation and like what is facts of the situation and like what is facts of the situation and like what is now like known to be her role in that if now like known to be her role in that if now like known to be her role in that if I were her clearly I'm not but if I were I were her clearly I'm not but if I were I were her clearly I'm not but if I were her I wouldn't be going around saying her I wouldn't be going around saying her I wouldn't be going around saying I'm an innocent victim I would say maybe she's I don't know what she's maybe she's I don't know what she's saying again like I don't know she was saying again like I don't know she was saying again like I don't know she was controlled by Jeffrey is she saying this controlled by Jeffrey is she saying this controlled by Jeffrey is she saying this as part of a legal case or is she saying as part of a legal case or is she saying as part of a legal case or is she saying this as like a PR thing uh well PR but it's not just her it's our whole PR but it's not just her it's our whole family believes this there's uh there's family believes this there's uh there's family believes this there's uh there's a whole effort that says like a whole effort that says like a whole effort that says like that that that how should I put it I believe they how should I put it I believe they how should I put it I believe they believe it so in that sense it's not PR believe it so in that sense it's not PR believe it so in that sense it's not PR I I believe the family the basically the I I believe the family the basically the I I believe the family the basically the family is saying that family is saying that family is saying that she's a good she's a really good human she's a good she's a really good human she's a good she's a really good human being well I think everyone is a good being well I think everyone is a good being well I think everyone is a good human being I know it's a controversial human being I know it's a controversial human being I know it's a controversial opinion but I think opinion but I think opinion but I think everyone is a good human being

is a good human being there's no evil people there's people there's no evil people there's people there's no evil people there's people who do bad things and who behave in ways who do bad things and who behave in ways who do bad things and who behave in ways that harm others and I think we should that harm others and I think we should that harm others and I think we should always hold people accountable for that always hold people accountable for that always hold people accountable for that but holding someone accountable doesn't but holding someone accountable doesn't but holding someone accountable doesn't mean saying that they're evil yeah mean saying that they're evil yeah mean saying that they're evil yeah actually those those people usually actually those those people usually actually those those people usually think they're doing good think they're doing good think they're doing good yeah I mean aside from I don't know yeah I mean aside from I don't know yeah I mean aside from I don't know maybe sociopaths like are specifically maybe sociopaths like are specifically maybe sociopaths like are specifically trying to like harm people trying to like harm people trying to like harm people but I think most people are trying to do but I think most people are trying to do but I think most people are trying to do their best and if they're not their best and if they're not their best and if they're not doing their best is because there's some doing their best is because there's some doing their best is because there's some impediment or something in their past impediment or something in their past impediment or something in their past so I I just I genuinely don't believe in so I I just I genuinely don't believe in so I I just I genuinely don't believe in good and evil people but I do believe in good and evil people but I do believe in good and evil people but I do believe in like harmful and not harmful actions and like harmful and not harmful actions and like harmful and not harmful actions and so I don't know so I don't know so I don't know like I don't care I don't care yeah like I don't care I don't care yeah like I don't care I don't care yeah she's a good person but if she she's a good person but if she she's a good person but if she contributed to harm then she needs to be contributed to harm then she needs to be contributed to harm then she needs to be accountable for that like that's my accountable for that like that's my accountable for that like that's my position I don't know what the facts of position I don't know what the facts of position I don't know what the facts of the matter are it seems like she was the matter are it seems like she was the matter are it seems like she was pretty close to the situation so it pretty close to the situation so it pretty close to the situation so it doesn't seem very believable that she doesn't seem very believable that she doesn't seem very believable that she was a victim but I don't know I wish I was a victim but I don't know I wish I was a victim but I don't know I wish I have met Epstein have met Epstein have met Epstein because something tells me he would just because something tells me he would just because something tells me he would just be a regular person a charismatic person be a regular person a charismatic person be a regular person a charismatic person like anybody else and that's a very dark like anybody else and that's a very dark like anybody else and that's a very dark reality that we don't know which Among reality that we don't know which Among reality that we don't know which Among Us Us Us what what each of us are hiding in the what what each of us are hiding in the what what each of us are hiding in the closet that's a really tough thing to like deal that's a really tough thing to like deal with because then you can put your trust with because then you can put your trust with because then you can put your trust into some people into some people into some people and they can completely betray that

and they can completely betray that and they can completely betray that trust and in the process destroy you trust and in the process destroy you trust and in the process destroy you yeah yeah yeah which is a lot of people that interacted which is a lot of people that interacted which is a lot of people that interacted with Epstein with Epstein with Epstein then now have to then now have to then now have to I mean if they're not destroyed by it I mean if they're not destroyed by it I mean if they're not destroyed by it then they're they that their whole like then they're they that their whole like then they're they that their whole like the ground on which they stand ethically the ground on which they stand ethically the ground on which they stand ethically is is has crumbled at least in part is is has crumbled at least in part is is has crumbled at least in part and you I'm sure and you I'm sure and you I'm sure I'm sure you and I have interacted with I'm sure you and I have interacted with I'm sure you and I have interacted with people without knowing it who are bad people without knowing it who are bad people without knowing it who are bad people people who have done bad things because people who have done bad things because I was talking about bad guys I'm trying I was talking about bad guys I'm trying I was talking about bad guys I'm trying to move them towards to move them towards to move them towards they're just people who make bad choices they're just people who make bad choices they're just people who make bad choices yeah that's really powerful actually yeah that's really powerful actually yeah that's really powerful actually that's really important to remember that's really important to remember that's really important to remember because that that means you have because that that means you have because that that means you have compassion towards all human beings compassion towards all human beings compassion towards all human beings um do you have hope for the future of um do you have hope for the future of um do you have hope for the future of MIT a future of media lab in this MIT a future of media lab in this MIT a future of media lab in this context context context uh so David Newman is now at the helm uh so David Newman is now at the helm uh so David Newman is now at the helm I'm gonna talk I talked to a priest I'll I'm gonna talk I talked to a priest I'll I'm gonna talk I talked to a priest I'll talk to her again talk to her again talk to her again she's great love her yeah she's great she's great love her yeah she's great she's great love her yeah she's great I don't know if she knew I don't know if she knew I don't know if she knew the whole situation when she started the whole situation when she started the whole situation when she started because because because the situation went beyond just the the situation went beyond just the the situation went beyond just the Epstein Scandal a bunch of other stuff Epstein Scandal a bunch of other stuff Epstein Scandal a bunch of other stuff happened at the same time happened at the same time happened at the same time some of it's not public some of it's not public some of it's not public um um um but my what I was personally going but my what I was personally going but my what I was personally going through at that time so the Epstein through at that time so the Epstein through at that time so the Epstein thing happened I think was it August or thing happened I think was it August or thing happened I think was it August or September

September September 2019 it was somewhere around late summer 2019 it was somewhere around late summer 2019 it was somewhere around late summer in June 2019 in June 2019 in June 2019 so I'm I'm a research scientist at MIT so I'm I'm a research scientist at MIT so I'm I'm a research scientist at MIT you are too right so and I always have you are too right so and I always have you are too right so and I always have had various supervisors uh you know over had various supervisors uh you know over had various supervisors uh you know over the years and they've just basically let the years and they've just basically let the years and they've just basically let me do what I want which has been great me do what I want which has been great me do what I want which has been great but I had a supervisor at the time but I had a supervisor at the time but I had a supervisor at the time and he called me into his office for and he called me into his office for and he called me into his office for regular check-in regular check-in regular check-in in June of 2019 I reported to MIT that in June of 2019 I reported to MIT that in June of 2019 I reported to MIT that my supervisor had my supervisor had my supervisor had grabbed me grabbed me grabbed me pulled me into a hug wrapped his arms pulled me into a hug wrapped his arms pulled me into a hug wrapped his arms around my waist and started massaging my around my waist and started massaging my around my waist and started massaging my hip and trying to kiss me kiss my face hip and trying to kiss me kiss my face hip and trying to kiss me kiss my face kiss me near the mouth kiss me near the mouth kiss me near the mouth um and said literally the words don't um and said literally the words don't um and said literally the words don't worry I'll take care of your career um and that um and that that experience was really interesting that experience was really interesting that experience was really interesting because I just because I just because I just I was very indignant I was like I was very indignant I was like I was very indignant I was like he can't do that to me doesn't he know he can't do that to me doesn't he know he can't do that to me doesn't he know who I am and I was like this is the me who I am and I was like this is the me who I am and I was like this is the me too era and I naively thought that when too era and I naively thought that when too era and I naively thought that when I reported that it would get taken care I reported that it would get taken care I reported that it would get taken care of and then I had to go through the of and then I had to go through the of and then I had to go through the whole reporting process at MIT and I whole reporting process at MIT and I whole reporting process at MIT and I learned a lot about how institutions learned a lot about how institutions learned a lot about how institutions really handle those things internally really handle those things internally really handle those things internally um particularly situations where I um particularly situations where I um particularly situations where I couldn't provide evidence that it couldn't provide evidence that it couldn't provide evidence that it happened I had no reason to lie about it happened I had no reason to lie about it happened I had no reason to lie about it but I had no evidence and so

but I had no evidence and so but I had no evidence and so I was going through that and that was I was going through that and that was I was going through that and that was another experience for me where another experience for me where another experience for me where there's so many people in the there's so many people in the there's so many people in the institution institution institution who really believe in protecting the who really believe in protecting the who really believe in protecting the institution at all costs and there's institution at all costs and there's institution at all costs and there's only a few people who care about doing only a few people who care about doing only a few people who care about doing the right thing the right thing the right thing and one of them and one of them and one of them resigned and now there's even less of resigned and now there's even less of resigned and now there's even less of them left so them left so them left so so what did you learn from that so what did you learn from that so what did you learn from that I mean where is the source if you have I mean where is the source if you have I mean where is the source if you have hope hope hope for this institution that I think you for this institution that I think you for this institution that I think you love love love at least in part at least in part at least in part I I love the idea of MiG I love the idea I I love the idea of MiG I love the idea I I love the idea of MiG I love the idea I love the research body I love a lot of I love the research body I love a lot of I love the research body I love a lot of the faculty I love the students the the faculty I love the students the the faculty I love the students the students I love the energy like I love students I love the energy like I love students I love the energy like I love it all I think the administration it all I think the administration it all I think the administration suffers from the same problems as suffers from the same problems as suffers from the same problems as any any any institutional any leadership of an institutional any leadership of an institutional any leadership of an institution that is large institution that is large institution that is large which is that they've become risk-averse like you they've become risk-averse like you mentioned they care about PR the only mentioned they care about PR the only mentioned they care about PR the only ways to ways to ways to get their attention or change their get their attention or change their get their attention or change their minds about anything or to threaten the minds about anything or to threaten the minds about anything or to threaten the reputation of The Institute or to have a reputation of The Institute or to have a reputation of The Institute or to have a lot of money lot of money lot of money that's the only way to have power at the that's the only way to have power at the that's the only way to have power at the Institute Institute Institute um um um yeah I don't think they I don't think yeah I don't think they I don't think yeah I don't think they I don't think they have a lot of Integrity or believe they have a lot of Integrity or believe they have a lot of Integrity or believe in ideas or even have a lot of in ideas or even have a lot of in ideas or even have a lot of connection to the research body and like connection to the research body and like connection to the research body and like the people who are really because it's the people who are really because it's the people who are really because it's so weird you have this amazing research

so weird you have this amazing research so weird you have this amazing research body of people pushing the boundaries of body of people pushing the boundaries of body of people pushing the boundaries of things who aren't afraid to like there's things who aren't afraid to like there's things who aren't afraid to like there's the hacker culture the hacker culture the hacker culture and then you have the administration and and then you have the administration and and then you have the administration and they're really like protect the institution at all costs protect the institution at all costs yeah there's your disconnect right yeah there's your disconnect right yeah there's your disconnect right completely I wonder if that was those completely I wonder if that was those completely I wonder if that was those there if it just kind of slowly grows there if it just kind of slowly grows there if it just kind of slowly grows over time a disconnect between the over time a disconnect between the over time a disconnect between the administration The Faculty I think it administration The Faculty I think it administration The Faculty I think it grew over time is what I've heard grew over time is what I've heard grew over time is what I've heard I mean I've been there for 11 years now I don't know if it's gotten worse during I don't know if it's gotten worse during my time but my time but my time but I've heard from people who've been there I've heard from people who've been there I've heard from people who've been there longer that it didn't know like MIT longer that it didn't know like MIT longer that it didn't know like MIT didn't used to have a general counsel's didn't used to have a general counsel's didn't used to have a general counsel's office they didn't used to have all this office they didn't used to have all this office they didn't used to have all this corporate stuff and then they had to corporate stuff and then they had to corporate stuff and then they had to create it as they got bigger and in the create it as they got bigger and in the create it as they got bigger and in the era where such things are I guess deemed era where such things are I guess deemed era where such things are I guess deemed necessary see I believe in the power of necessary see I believe in the power of necessary see I believe in the power of individuals to like overthrow the thing individuals to like overthrow the thing individuals to like overthrow the thing so it's just a really good president so it's just a really good president so it's just a really good president of MIT or certain people in the of MIT or certain people in the of MIT or certain people in the administration can reform the whole administration can reform the whole administration can reform the whole thing because the the culture is still thing because the the culture is still thing because the the culture is still there of like there of like there of like I think everybody I think everybody I think everybody remembers that MIT is about the students remembers that MIT is about the students remembers that MIT is about the students and the faculty do they though because and the faculty do they though because and the faculty do they though because I've had a lot of conversations that I've had a lot of conversations that I've had a lot of conversations that have been shocking with like senior have been shocking with like senior have been shocking with like senior Administration they think the students Administration they think the students Administration they think the students are children they call them kids it's are children they call them kids it's are children they call them kids it's like these are the smartest people like these are the smartest people like these are the smartest people they're way smarter than you yeah and

they're way smarter than you yeah and they're way smarter than you yeah and you're so dismissive but those you're so dismissive but those you're so dismissive but those individuals I'm saying like the the individuals I'm saying like the the individuals I'm saying like the the capacity capacity capacity like the aura of the place still values like the aura of the place still values like the aura of the place still values this the students and the faculty like I this the students and the faculty like I this the students and the faculty like I I'm not I'm being awfully poetic about I'm not I'm being awfully poetic about I'm not I'm being awfully poetic about it but what I mean is the administration it but what I mean is the administration it but what I mean is the administration is the um is the um is the um the froth at the top of the like the the froth at the top of the like the the froth at the top of the like the waves the surface like they can be waves the surface like they can be waves the surface like they can be removed and New Life can be brought in removed and New Life can be brought in removed and New Life can be brought in that would keep to the spirit of the that would keep to the spirit of the that would keep to the spirit of the place who decides on who to bring in place who decides on who to bring in place who decides on who to bring in who's oh I see who's oh I see who's oh I see uh I see but I I do think ultimately uh I see but I I do think ultimately uh I see but I I do think ultimately especially in the era of social media especially in the era of social media especially in the era of social media and so on um um faculty and students have more and more faculty and students have more and more faculty and students have more and more power there's more more of a voice I power there's more more of a voice I power there's more more of a voice I suppose I hope so I really do suppose I hope so I really do suppose I hope so I really do I don't see MIT going away anytime soon I don't see MIT going away anytime soon I don't see MIT going away anytime soon and like I also don't think it's a and like I also don't think it's a and like I also don't think it's a terrible place at all yeah it's an terrible place at all yeah it's an terrible place at all yeah it's an amazing place and it's a but there's amazing place and it's a but there's amazing place and it's a but there's different trajectories you can take yeah different trajectories you can take yeah different trajectories you can take yeah and like and that has to do with a lot and like and that has to do with a lot and like and that has to do with a lot of things including of things including of things including um um um does it is it stays even if we talk does it is it stays even if we talk does it is it stays even if we talk about robotics it could be the capital about robotics it could be the capital about robotics it could be the capital of the world in robotics of the world in robotics of the world in robotics but currently if you want to be doing but currently if you want to be doing but currently if you want to be doing the best AI work in the world you're the best AI work in the world you're the best AI work in the world you're going to go to Google or Facebook going to go to Google or Facebook going to go to Google or Facebook um or Tesla or apple or so on you're not

um or Tesla or apple or so on you're not um or Tesla or apple or so on you're not going to be you're not going to be in going to be you're not going to be in going to be you're not going to be in MIT MIT MIT and so that that has to do I think and so that that has to do I think and so that that has to do I think that's basically has to do with that's basically has to do with that's basically has to do with um um um not allowing the the Brilliance of the not allowing the the Brilliance of the not allowing the the Brilliance of the researchers to flourish researchers to flourish researchers to flourish yeah people say it's about money but I yeah people say it's about money but I yeah people say it's about money but I don't think it's about that at all like sometimes you have more freedom and can sometimes you have more freedom and can work on more interesting things in work on more interesting things in work on more interesting things in companies that's what really where they companies that's what really where they companies that's what really where they lose people yeah lose people yeah lose people yeah and some the the freedom in all in in and some the the freedom in all in in and some the the freedom in all in in all ways all ways all ways which is why it's heartbreaking to get which is why it's heartbreaking to get which is why it's heartbreaking to get like people like Richard stallman like people like Richard stallman like people like Richard stallman there's such an interesting line because there's such an interesting line because there's such an interesting line because like Christians Thomas a gigantic weirdo like Christians Thomas a gigantic weirdo like Christians Thomas a gigantic weirdo that cross lines you shouldn't across that cross lines you shouldn't across that cross lines you shouldn't across right but we don't want to draw too many right but we don't want to draw too many right but we don't want to draw too many lines lines lines this is the tricky thing there are this is the tricky thing there are this is the tricky thing there are different types of lines in my opinion different types of lines in my opinion different types of lines in my opinion but just your opinion because you have but just your opinion because you have but just your opinion because you have strong lines you hold through but then strong lines you hold through but then strong lines you hold through but then if Administration listens to every line if Administration listens to every line if Administration listens to every line there's there's also power in drawing a there's there's also power in drawing a there's there's also power in drawing a line line line like and there's it becomes like a like and there's it becomes like a like and there's it becomes like a little drug you have to find the right little drug you have to find the right little drug you have to find the right balance licking somebody's arm is never balance licking somebody's arm is never balance licking somebody's arm is never appropriate I think the biggest aspect appropriate I think the biggest aspect appropriate I think the biggest aspect there is not uh owning it learning from there is not uh owning it learning from there is not uh owning it learning from a growing from it from a perspective a a growing from it from a perspective a a growing from it from a perspective a stallman or people like that uh back stallman or people like that uh back stallman or people like that uh back when it happened like understanding when it happened like understanding when it happened like understanding seeing the being empathetic seeing the

seeing the being empathetic seeing the seeing the being empathetic seeing the the fact that this was like totally the fact that this was like totally the fact that this was like totally inappropriate uh like not when that inappropriate uh like not when that inappropriate uh like not when that particular act but everything that led particular act but everything that led particular act but everything that led up to it too no I think there are up to it too no I think there are up to it too no I think there are different kinds of lines I think they're different kinds of lines I think they're different kinds of lines I think they're a lot so Stone and crossed lines that so Stone and crossed lines that essentially excluded a bunch of people essentially excluded a bunch of people essentially excluded a bunch of people and created an environment where we and created an environment where we and created an environment where we their Brilliant Minds that we never got their Brilliant Minds that we never got their Brilliant Minds that we never got the benefit of because he made things the benefit of because he made things the benefit of because he made things feel feel feel gross or even unsafe for people there gross or even unsafe for people there gross or even unsafe for people there are lines that you can cross are lines that you can cross are lines that you can cross where you're challenging an institution where you're challenging an institution where you're challenging an institution to like I don't think he was intentionally like I don't think he was intentionally trying to cross a line or maybe maybe he trying to cross a line or maybe maybe he trying to cross a line or maybe maybe he didn't care there are lines that you can didn't care there are lines that you can didn't care there are lines that you can cross intentionally to move something cross intentionally to move something cross intentionally to move something forward or to do the right thing like forward or to do the right thing like forward or to do the right thing like when MIT was like you can't put an when MIT was like you can't put an when MIT was like you can't put an all-gender restroom in the media lab all-gender restroom in the media lab all-gender restroom in the media lab because like something permits whatever because like something permits whatever because like something permits whatever and Joey did it anyway that's a line you and Joey did it anyway that's a line you and Joey did it anyway that's a line you can cross to make things actually better can cross to make things actually better can cross to make things actually better for people and the line you're Crossing for people and the line you're Crossing for people and the line you're Crossing is some arbitrary stupid rule that is some arbitrary stupid rule that is some arbitrary stupid rule that people who don't want to take the risk people who don't want to take the risk people who don't want to take the risk or like or like or like yeah for sure you know what I mean no yeah for sure you know what I mean no yeah for sure you know what I mean no ultimately I think the thing you said is ultimately I think the thing you said is ultimately I think the thing you said is like cross lines in a way that doesn't like cross lines in a way that doesn't like cross lines in a way that doesn't uh uh uh uh alienate others so like for example uh alienate others so like for example uh alienate others so like for example me weren't I started for a while wearing me weren't I started for a while wearing me weren't I started for a while wearing a suit often at MIT which sounds

a suit often at MIT which sounds a suit often at MIT which sounds counter-intuitive but that's actually counter-intuitive but that's actually counter-intuitive but that's actually um um um I people always looked at me weird for I people always looked at me weird for I people always looked at me weird for that MIT created this culture that MIT created this culture that MIT created this culture specifically the people I was working specifically the people I was working specifically the people I was working with like nobody wore a suit maybe the with like nobody wore a suit maybe the with like nobody wore a suit maybe the business business business don't trust the suits I was like fuck don't trust the suits I was like fuck don't trust the suits I was like fuck you I'm wearing the suit you I'm wearing the suit you I'm wearing the suit but that's not really hurting anybody but that's not really hurting anybody but that's not really hurting anybody right exactly right exactly right exactly um it's challenging people's perceptions um it's challenging people's perceptions um it's challenging people's perceptions it's doing something that you want to do it's doing something that you want to do it's doing something that you want to do yeah but it's not hurting people and and yeah but it's not hurting people and and yeah but it's not hurting people and and that that particular thing was that that particular thing was that that particular thing was um yeah it's hurting people um yeah it's hurting people um yeah it's hurting people it's a good line that's a good line to it's a good line that's a good line to it's a good line that's a good line to like hurting ultimately the people that you hurting ultimately the people that you want to flourish yeah want to flourish yeah want to flourish yeah yeah you tweeted a picture of a pumpkin yeah you tweeted a picture of a pumpkin yeah you tweeted a picture of a pumpkin spice Greek yogurt spice Greek yogurt spice Greek yogurt and asked uh grounds for divorce yes no and asked uh grounds for divorce yes no and asked uh grounds for divorce yes no so let me ask you what's what's the key so let me ask you what's what's the key so let me ask you what's what's the key to a successful relationship oh my God a to a successful relationship oh my God a to a successful relationship oh my God a good couple therapist what uh what went wrong with the pumpkin what uh what went wrong with the pumpkin spice Greek yogurt what's exactly what's spice Greek yogurt what's exactly what's spice Greek yogurt what's exactly what's wrong is it the pumpkin is it the Greek wrong is it the pumpkin is it the Greek wrong is it the pumpkin is it the Greek I don't understand that tweet for a I don't understand that tweet for a I don't understand that tweet for a while I grew up in Europe so I don't while I grew up in Europe so I don't while I grew up in Europe so I don't understand the pumpkin spice in understand the pumpkin spice in understand the pumpkin spice in everything craze that they do every everything craze that they do every everything craze that they do every Autumn here like I understand that it Autumn here like I understand that it Autumn here like I understand that it might be good in some foods but they might be good in some foods but they might be good in some foods but they just put it in everything just put it in everything just put it in everything and it doesn't belong in Greek yogurt and it doesn't belong in Greek yogurt and it doesn't belong in Greek yogurt I mean I was just being humorous I ate

I mean I was just being humorous I ate I mean I was just being humorous I ate one of those yogurts and I actually one of those yogurts and I actually one of those yogurts and I actually tasted pretty good so tasted pretty good so tasted pretty good so I think part of the success of a good I think part of the success of a good I think part of the success of a good marriage is like marriage is like marriage is like giving each other a hard time humorously giving each other a hard time humorously giving each other a hard time humorously for things like that for things like that for things like that is there a broader lesson because you is there a broader lesson because you is there a broader lesson because you guys seem to have a really great guys seem to have a really great guys seem to have a really great marriage from the external I mean every marriage from the external I mean every marriage from the external I mean every marriage looks good from the external marriage looks good from the external marriage looks good from the external every I think yeah every I think yeah every I think yeah that's that's not true but yeah okay relationships relationships have hard relationships with anyone are have hard relationships with anyone are have hard relationships with anyone are hard hard hard actually because people evolve and actually because people evolve and actually because people evolve and change and you have to make sure there's change and you have to make sure there's change and you have to make sure there's space for both people to evolve and space for both people to evolve and space for both people to evolve and change together and I think one of the change together and I think one of the change together and I think one of the things things things that I really liked about are marriage that I really liked about are marriage that I really liked about are marriage vows was vows was vows was I remember before we got married Greg at I remember before we got married Greg at I remember before we got married Greg at some point like got kind of nervous and some point like got kind of nervous and some point like got kind of nervous and he was like it's just it's such a big he was like it's just it's such a big he was like it's just it's such a big commitment to commit like to something commitment to commit like to something commitment to commit like to something for life and I was like we're not for life and I was like we're not for life and I was like we're not committing to this for life and he was committing to this for life and he was committing to this for life and he was like we're not and I'm like no like like we're not and I'm like no like like we're not and I'm like no like we're committing to being part of a team we're committing to being part of a team we're committing to being part of a team and doing what's best for the team and doing what's best for the team and doing what's best for the team what's best for the team is to break up what's best for the team is to break up what's best for the team is to break up we'll break up like we'll break up like we'll break up like I don't believe in this like we have to I don't believe in this like we have to I don't believe in this like we have to do this for our whole lives do this for our whole lives do this for our whole lives and that really resonated with him too and that really resonated with him too and that really resonated with him too so so so yeah did you put in the well yeah those yeah did you put in the well yeah those yeah did you put in the well yeah those are vows like that we're just we're are vows like that we're just we're are vows like that we're just we're gonna be a team you're a team and do gonna be a team you're a team and do gonna be a team you're a team and do what's right for the team yeah yeah

that's very like Michael Jordan view uh that's very like Michael Jordan view uh uh do you guys get like married in the uh do you guys get like married in the uh do you guys get like married in the in the desert like November Rain Style in the desert like November Rain Style in the desert like November Rain Style with Slash playing or with Slash playing or with Slash playing or you don't have to answer that I'm not you don't have to answer that I'm not you don't have to answer that I'm not good at these questions okay you've good at these questions okay you've good at these questions okay you've brought up marriage like eight times are brought up marriage like eight times are brought up marriage like eight times are you trying to hint something on the you trying to hint something on the you trying to hint something on the podcast you have an announcement to make no what you have an announcement to make no what I don't know it just seems like a good I don't know it just seems like a good I don't know it just seems like a good metaphor metaphor metaphor for why why why what it felt like a good for why why why what it felt like a good for why why why what it felt like a good metaphor for in a bunch of cases metaphor for in a bunch of cases metaphor for in a bunch of cases for the uh marriage industrial complex I for the uh marriage industrial complex I for the uh marriage industrial complex I remember that um and oh people remember that um and oh people remember that um and oh people complaining it just seemed like marriage complaining it just seemed like marriage complaining it just seemed like marriage is one of the things that always is one of the things that always is one of the things that always surprises me because I want to get surprises me because I want to get surprises me because I want to get married you do yeah I do and then I I married you do yeah I do and then I I married you do yeah I do and then I I listen to like friends of mine that listen to like friends of mine that listen to like friends of mine that complain not all I like I like guys I complain not all I like I like guys I complain not all I like I like guys I really like guys that don't complain really like guys that don't complain really like guys that don't complain about their marriage it's such a cheap about their marriage it's such a cheap about their marriage it's such a cheap like if it's such a cheap release valve like if it's such a cheap release valve like if it's such a cheap release valve like it doesn't that's bitching about like it doesn't that's bitching about like it doesn't that's bitching about anything honestly that's just like it's anything honestly that's just like it's anything honestly that's just like it's too easy but especially like bitch about too easy but especially like bitch about too easy but especially like bitch about the sports team or the weather if you the sports team or the weather if you the sports team or the weather if you want but like about somebody that you're want but like about somebody that you're want but like about somebody that you're dedicating your life to like if you dedicating your life to like if you dedicating your life to like if you bitch about them bitch about them bitch about them you're going to see them as a lesser you're going to see them as a lesser you're going to see them as a lesser being also like you don't think so but being also like you don't think so but being also like you don't think so but you're going to like decrease the value you're going to like decrease the value you're going to like decrease the value you have I I personally believe over you have I I personally believe over you have I I personally believe over time you're not going to appreciate the time you're not going to appreciate the time you're not going to appreciate the magic of that person magic of that person magic of that person I think anyway but it's like that I just

I think anyway but it's like that I just I think anyway but it's like that I just noticed this a lot that people are noticed this a lot that people are noticed this a lot that people are married married married and they will whine about you know like and they will whine about you know like and they will whine about you know like the wife uh whatever you know this this the wife uh whatever you know this this the wife uh whatever you know this this cut is part of the sort of the culture cut is part of the sort of the culture cut is part of the sort of the culture to kind of uh comment in that way I to kind of uh comment in that way I to kind of uh comment in that way I think women do the same thing about the think women do the same thing about the think women do the same thing about the husband uh he doesn't he never does this husband uh he doesn't he never does this husband uh he doesn't he never does this or he's a goof he's incompetent at this or he's a goof he's incompetent at this or he's a goof he's incompetent at this or that whatever they there's a kind of or that whatever they there's a kind of or that whatever they there's a kind of yeah there's those tropes like oh you yeah there's those tropes like oh you yeah there's those tropes like oh you know husbands never do X and like wives know husbands never do X and like wives know husbands never do X and like wives or I know I think those do a disservice or I know I think those do a disservice or I know I think those do a disservice to everyone is just disrespectful to to everyone is just disrespectful to to everyone is just disrespectful to everyone involved yeah but it happens so everyone involved yeah but it happens so everyone involved yeah but it happens so yeah I was and brought that up as an yeah I was and brought that up as an yeah I was and brought that up as an example of something that people example of something that people example of something that people actually love but they complain about actually love but they complain about actually love but they complain about because for some reason that's more fun because for some reason that's more fun because for some reason that's more fun to do is complain about stuff yeah and to do is complain about stuff yeah and to do is complain about stuff yeah and so that's what with clippy or whatever so that's what with clippy or whatever so that's what with clippy or whatever right so like you complain about but you right so like you complain about but you right so like you complain about but you actually love it there you go it's just actually love it there you go it's just actually love it there you go it's just a good metaphor that you know a good metaphor that you know a good metaphor that you know um um um what was I going to ask you uh oh you uh your hamster died your hamster died when I was like eight you miss her when I was like eight you miss her when I was like eight you miss her beige um beige um beige um what's the closest relationship you've what's the closest relationship you've what's the closest relationship you've had with a pet had with a pet had with a pet not the one what we didn't have a lot of robot have what we didn't have a lot of robot have you loved the most in your life I think my my first pet was a goldfish I think my my first pet was a goldfish named Bob named Bob named Bob and he died immediately and that was

and he died immediately and that was and he died immediately and that was really sad really sad really sad [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] I think I think it was really attached I think I think it was really attached I think I think it was really attached to Bob and Nancy my goldfish we got new to Bob and Nancy my goldfish we got new to Bob and Nancy my goldfish we got new Bobs and then Bob kept dying and we got Bobs and then Bob kept dying and we got Bobs and then Bob kept dying and we got new bulbs Nancy just kept living so it was very replaceable so it was very replaceable yeah I was young yeah I was young yeah I was young it was easy it was easy it was easy do you think there will be a time when do you think there will be a time when do you think there will be a time when the robot like in the movie Her be the robot like in the movie Her be the robot like in the movie Her be something we fall in love with something we fall in love with something we fall in love with romantically romantically romantically oh yeah oh for sure yeah at scale like oh yeah oh for sure yeah at scale like oh yeah oh for sure yeah at scale like we're a lot of people we're a lot of people we're a lot of people romantically I don't know if it's gonna romantically I don't know if it's gonna romantically I don't know if it's gonna happen at scale I think happen at scale I think happen at scale I think we talked about this a little bit last we talked about this a little bit last we talked about this a little bit last time on the podcast too where I think time on the podcast too where I think time on the podcast too where I think we're just capable of so many different we're just capable of so many different we're just capable of so many different kinds of relationships and actually part kinds of relationships and actually part kinds of relationships and actually part of why I think marriage is so tough as a of why I think marriage is so tough as a of why I think marriage is so tough as a relationship is because we put so many relationship is because we put so many relationship is because we put so many expectations on it like your partner has expectations on it like your partner has expectations on it like your partner has to be your best friend and you have to to be your best friend and you have to to be your best friend and you have to be sexually attracted to them and they be sexually attracted to them and they be sexually attracted to them and they have to be a good co-parent and a good have to be a good co-parent and a good have to be a good co-parent and a good roommate and like roommate and like roommate and like all the relationships at once that have all the relationships at once that have all the relationships at once that have to work to work to work but we're like normally with other but we're like normally with other but we're like normally with other people we have like one type of people we have like one type of people we have like one type of relationship but we even have we have a relationship but we even have we have a relationship but we even have we have a different relationship to our dog than different relationship to our dog than different relationship to our dog than we do to our neighbor than we do to the we do to our neighbor than we do to the we do to our neighbor than we do to the you know person out someone a co-worker you know person out someone a co-worker you know person out someone a co-worker I think that some people are gonna find I think that some people are gonna find I think that some people are gonna find romantic relationships with robots romantic relationships with robots romantic relationships with robots interesting interesting interesting it might even be a widespread thing but it might even be a widespread thing but it might even be a widespread thing but I don't think it's gonna replace like

I don't think it's gonna replace like I don't think it's gonna replace like human romantic relationships I think human romantic relationships I think human romantic relationships I think it's just gonna be a separate type of it's just gonna be a separate type of it's just gonna be a separate type of thing thing thing it's gonna be more narrow it's gonna be more narrow it's gonna be more narrow more narrow or even like just something more narrow or even like just something more narrow or even like just something new that we haven't really experienced new that we haven't really experienced new that we haven't really experienced before maybe like having a crush on an before maybe like having a crush on an before maybe like having a crush on an artificial agent is a different type of artificial agent is a different type of artificial agent is a different type of Fascination I don't know people would Fascination I don't know people would Fascination I don't know people would see that as cheating see that as cheating see that as cheating I think people well I think people well I think people well I mean I mean I mean the things that people feel threatened the things that people feel threatened the things that people feel threatened by in relationships are very manifold so by in relationships are very manifold so by in relationships are very manifold so yeah that's just an interesting one yeah that's just an interesting one yeah that's just an interesting one because uh because uh because uh maybe gel maybe it'll be good A little maybe gel maybe it'll be good A little maybe gel maybe it'll be good A little jealousy for the relationship maybe jealousy for the relationship maybe jealousy for the relationship maybe they'll be like part of the couple's they'll be like part of the couple's they'll be like part of the couple's therapy you know kind of thing or therapy you know kind of thing or therapy you know kind of thing or whatever whatever whatever think jealousy I mean I think think jealousy I mean I think think jealousy I mean I think it's hard to avoid jealousy but I think it's hard to avoid jealousy but I think it's hard to avoid jealousy but I think the objective is probably to avoid I the objective is probably to avoid I the objective is probably to avoid I mean some people don't even get jealous mean some people don't even get jealous mean some people don't even get jealous when their partner sleeps with someone when their partner sleeps with someone when their partner sleeps with someone else like there's polyamory and else like there's polyamory and else like there's polyamory and um um um yeah I think there's just such a yeah I think there's just such a yeah I think there's just such a diversity of different ways that we can diversity of different ways that we can diversity of different ways that we can structure relationships or view them structure relationships or view them structure relationships or view them that this is just going to be another that this is just going to be another that this is just going to be another one that we add one that we add one that we add you dedicate your book to your dad what you dedicate your book to your dad what you dedicate your book to your dad what did you learn about life from your dad did you learn about life from your dad did you learn about life from your dad oh man my dad oh man my dad oh man my dad is is is he's a great listener and he is the best he's a great listener and he is the best he's a great listener and he is the best person I know at person I know at person I know at um the type of cognitive empathy that

um the type of cognitive empathy that um the type of cognitive empathy that like perspective taking like perspective taking like perspective taking so not like emotional like crying so not like emotional like crying so not like emotional like crying empathy but empathy but empathy but trying to see someone else's point of trying to see someone else's point of trying to see someone else's point of view and trying to put yourself in their view and trying to put yourself in their view and trying to put yourself in their shoes and he really shoes and he really shoes and he really instilled that in me from an early age instilled that in me from an early age instilled that in me from an early age and then he made me read a ton of and then he made me read a ton of and then he made me read a ton of Science Fiction which Science Fiction which Science Fiction which probably led me down this path uh taught probably led me down this path uh taught probably led me down this path uh taught you how to be curious about the world you how to be curious about the world you how to be curious about the world and how to be open-minded yeah and how to be open-minded yeah and how to be open-minded yeah last question what role does Love play last question what role does Love play last question what role does Love play in The Human Condition so this one been in The Human Condition so this one been in The Human Condition so this one been talking about love and robots talking about love and robots talking about love and robots How uh and you're fascinated by social How uh and you're fascinated by social How uh and you're fascinated by social robotics robotics robotics it feels like all of that operates in it feels like all of that operates in it feels like all of that operates in the landscape of something that we can the landscape of something that we can the landscape of something that we can call love love yeah I think there are a call love love yeah I think there are a call love love yeah I think there are a lot of different kinds of love I feel lot of different kinds of love I feel lot of different kinds of love I feel like it's like it's like it's we need we need we need I'm like don't the eskimos have all I'm like don't the eskimos have all I'm like don't the eskimos have all these different words for snow we need these different words for snow we need these different words for snow we need we need more words for to describe we need more words for to describe we need more words for to describe different types and kinds of love that different types and kinds of love that different types and kinds of love that we experience but I think love is so we experience but I think love is so we experience but I think love is so important and I also think it's not important and I also think it's not important and I also think it's not zero-sum that's the that's the really zero-sum that's the that's the really zero-sum that's the that's the really interesting thing about love is that interesting thing about love is that interesting thing about love is that you know I had one kid and I love loved you know I had one kid and I love loved you know I had one kid and I love loved my first kid more than anything else in my first kid more than anything else in my first kid more than anything else in the world and I was like how can I have the world and I was like how can I have the world and I was like how can I have a second kid and then love that kid also a second kid and then love that kid also a second kid and then love that kid also I'm never gonna love it as much as the I'm never gonna love it as much as the I'm never gonna love it as much as the first but I love them both equally it's first but I love them both equally it's first but I love them both equally it's just like my heart expanded and so I just like my heart expanded and so I just like my heart expanded and so I think that people who are threatened by

think that people who are threatened by think that people who are threatened by love towards artificial agents love towards artificial agents love towards artificial agents they don't need to be threatened for they don't need to be threatened for they don't need to be threatened for that reason that reason that reason artificial agents will just if Done artificial agents will just if Done artificial agents will just if Done Right will just expand Right will just expand Right will just expand your capacity for love I think so your capacity for love I think so your capacity for love I think so I agree beautifully put okay this is I agree beautifully put okay this is I agree beautifully put okay this is awesome I still didn't talk about half awesome I still didn't talk about half awesome I still didn't talk about half the things I want to talk about but the things I want to talk about but the things I want to talk about but we're already like way over three hours we're already like way over three hours we're already like way over three hours so thank you so much I really appreciate so thank you so much I really appreciate so thank you so much I really appreciate you talking today you're awesome you're you talking today you're awesome you're you talking today you're awesome you're an amazing human being a great an amazing human being a great an amazing human being a great roboticist great writer now it's an roboticist great writer now it's an roboticist great writer now it's an honor that you would talk with me thanks honor that you would talk with me thanks honor that you would talk with me thanks for doing it right back at you thank you for doing it right back at you thank you for doing it right back at you thank you thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with Kate Dowling to conversation with Kate Dowling to conversation with Kate Dowling to support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description our sponsors in the description our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words and now let me leave you with some words and now let me leave you with some words for Maya Angelou for Maya Angelou for Maya Angelou courage is the most important of all the courage is the most important of all the courage is the most important of all the virtues because without courage you virtues because without courage you virtues because without courage you can't practice any other virtue can't practice any other virtue can't practice any other virtue consistently consistently consistently thank you for listening and hope to see thank you for listening and hope to see thank you for listening and hope to see you next time