Ryan Graves: UFOs, Fighter Jets, and Aliens | Lex Fridman Podcast #308

how are these interacting with our how are these interacting with our fighters if they are how are they fighters if they are how are they fighters if they are how are they interacting with the weather and their interacting with the weather and their interacting with the weather and their environment how are they interacting environment how are they interacting environment how are they interacting with each other so can we look at these with each other so can we look at these with each other so can we look at these and how they're acting perhaps as a and how they're acting perhaps as a and how they're acting perhaps as a swarm swarm swarm especially off the east coast where this especially off the east coast where this especially off the east coast where this is happening all the time with multiple is happening all the time with multiple is happening all the time with multiple objects objects objects the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with lieutenant ryan graves former navy lieutenant ryan graves former navy lieutenant ryan graves former navy fighter pilot including roles as a fighter pilot including roles as a fighter pilot including roles as a combat lead landing signals officer and combat lead landing signals officer and combat lead landing signals officer and rescue mission commander rescue mission commander rescue mission commander he and people in this squadron detected he and people in this squadron detected he and people in this squadron detected ufos on multiple occasions and he has ufos on multiple occasions and he has ufos on multiple occasions and he has been one of the few people willing to been one of the few people willing to been one of the few people willing to speak publicly about these experiences speak publicly about these experiences speak publicly about these experiences and about the importance of and about the importance of and about the importance of investigating these sightings especially investigating these sightings especially investigating these sightings especially for national security reasons for national security reasons for national security reasons ryan has a degree in mechanical and ryan has a degree in mechanical and ryan has a degree in mechanical and aerospace engineering from wpi aerospace engineering from wpi aerospace engineering from wpi and an interesting career roles in and an interesting career roles in and an interesting career roles in advanced technology development advanced technology development advanced technology development including multi-aging collaborative including multi-aging collaborative including multi-aging collaborative autonomy machine learning assisted autonomy machine learning assisted autonomy machine learning assisted air-to-air combat air-to-air combat air-to-air combat manned and unmanned teaming technologies manned and unmanned teaming technologies manned and unmanned teaming technologies and most recently development of and most recently development of and most recently development of materials through quantum simulation materials through quantum simulation materials through quantum simulation this is a lex friedman podcast to this is a lex friedman podcast to this is a lex friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's ryan here's ryan here's ryan graves graves graves what did you think of the new top gun what did you think of the new top gun what did you think of the new top gun movie how accurate was it let's start movie how accurate was it let's start movie how accurate was it let's start there i thought the flying was really there i thought the flying was really there i thought the flying was really accurate i thought the the type of accurate i thought the the type of accurate i thought the the type of flying they did and how they approached flying they did and how they approached flying they did and how they approached the actual mission the actual mission the actual mission um of course had a lot of liberties

um of course had a lot of liberties um of course had a lot of liberties but one thing that seems to be hard to but one thing that seems to be hard to but one thing that seems to be hard to capture on these types of things are the capture on these types of things are the capture on these types of things are the the chess game that's going on while the chess game that's going on while the chess game that's going on while that type of flying is happening the that type of flying is happening the that type of flying is happening the chess game between chess game between chess game between like in a dogfight between the the the like in a dogfight between the the the like in a dogfight between the the the pilots and the enemy or between the pilots and the enemy or between the pilots and the enemy or between the different pilots i'll even speak to just different pilots i'll even speak to just different pilots i'll even speak to just that particular mission they flew there that particular mission they flew there that particular mission they flew there and and and for that particular mission it's kind of for that particular mission it's kind of for that particular mission it's kind of a chess game with yourself to to get a chess game with yourself to to get a chess game with yourself to to get everything in place so everything in place so everything in place so what kind of flight they flew is called what kind of flight they flew is called what kind of flight they flew is called a high threat scenario which means they a high threat scenario which means they a high threat scenario which means they uh have to ingress low due to uh the uh have to ingress low due to uh the uh have to ingress low due to uh the surface-to-air threats that integrate surface-to-air threats that integrate surface-to-air threats that integrate air defense systems that are nearby and air defense systems that are nearby and air defense systems that are nearby and they have to ingress low and pop up like they have to ingress low and pop up like they have to ingress low and pop up like we see in the movie we see in the movie we see in the movie and in that particular movie that was a and in that particular movie that was a and in that particular movie that was a pre-planned strike they knew exactly pre-planned strike they knew exactly pre-planned strike they knew exactly where they're going but there's a where they're going but there's a where they're going but there's a scenario where we have to operate in scenario where we have to operate in scenario where we have to operate in that type of environment and we don't that type of environment and we don't that type of environment and we don't know exactly where we're going to strike know exactly where we're going to strike know exactly where we're going to strike or we're going to be adapting to or we're going to be adapting to or we're going to be adapting to real-time targets and so in that real-time targets and so in that real-time targets and so in that scenario you would have one of those scenario you would have one of those scenario you would have one of those fighters down low like that operating as fighters down low like that operating as fighters down low like that operating as a mission commander as a forward air a mission commander as a forward air a mission commander as a forward air controller and he's out there calling controller and he's out there calling controller and he's out there calling shots joining on those other players in shots joining on those other players in shots joining on those other players in order to ensure they're pointed at the order to ensure they're pointed at the order to ensure they're pointed at the right target so so that's a bit of the right target so so that's a bit of the right target so so that's a bit of the chess game that he'll be playing chess game that he'll be playing chess game that he'll be playing can you actually describe for people who can you actually describe for people who can you actually describe for people who haven't seen the movie uh what the haven't seen the movie uh what the haven't seen the movie uh what the mission actually is yeah what's involved mission actually is yeah what's involved mission actually is yeah what's involved in the mission so in the mission so in the mission so in this particular mission it's kind of in this particular mission it's kind of in this particular mission it's kind of what we would call a pre-planned strike what we would call a pre-planned strike what we would call a pre-planned strike so there's a known location that's in a so there's a known location that's in a so there's a known location that's in a heavily defended area heavily defended area heavily defended area and the air crew in this case i believe and the air crew in this case i believe and the air crew in this case i believe it was four f-18s on the initial package it was four f-18s on the initial package it was four f-18s on the initial package their job was to ingress very low down a their job was to ingress very low down a their job was to ingress very low down a canyon to stay out of the radar window

canyon to stay out of the radar window canyon to stay out of the radar window of the surfs to air threats what does of the surfs to air threats what does of the surfs to air threats what does ingress mean ingress means that they're ingress mean ingress means that they're ingress mean ingress means that they're going to be pushing from a start going to be pushing from a start going to be pushing from a start location towards the target or the location towards the target or the location towards the target or the objective so there's an ingress portion objective so there's an ingress portion objective so there's an ingress portion of the mission and an egress portion of of the mission and an egress portion of of the mission and an egress portion of the mission oh the mission oh the mission oh okay uh like the entrance and the exit okay uh like the entrance and the exit okay uh like the entrance and the exit correct type of thing got it but it correct type of thing got it but it correct type of thing got it but it changes our mindset tactically quite a changes our mindset tactically quite a changes our mindset tactically quite a bit right because when we're entering bit right because when we're entering bit right because when we're entering some place we have the option to enter some place we have the option to enter some place we have the option to enter but when we go drop a bomb on location but when we go drop a bomb on location but when we go drop a bomb on location we're exiting we're exiting we're exiting we don't have that luxury we don't have we don't have that luxury we don't have we don't have that luxury we don't have that option so it actually changes our that option so it actually changes our that option so it actually changes our tactics and our aggression level tactics and our aggression level tactics and our aggression level got it and so they were flying low to got it and so they were flying low to got it and so they were flying low to the ground and then there's a the ground and then there's a the ground and then there's a surface-to-air missiles surface-to-air missiles surface-to-air missiles that that that forced them to have to fly low is that a forced them to have to fly low is that a forced them to have to fly low is that a realistic thing it is realistic so realistic thing it is realistic so realistic thing it is realistic so driving those aircraft in the clutter uh driving those aircraft in the clutter uh driving those aircraft in the clutter uh you know you know you know all radar systems or most i should say all radar systems or most i should say all radar systems or most i should say are essentially line of sight and so are essentially line of sight and so are essentially line of sight and so they can be limited by the horizon or they can be limited by the horizon or they can be limited by the horizon or any clutter out there and even a number any clutter out there and even a number any clutter out there and even a number of radars if they are located up high of radars if they are located up high of radars if they are located up high and looking down towards that aircraft and looking down towards that aircraft and looking down towards that aircraft the clutter all the uh the objects such the clutter all the uh the objects such the clutter all the uh the objects such as trees and canyons as trees and canyons as trees and canyons can have effect on radar systems and so can have effect on radar systems and so can have effect on radar systems and so it can be a type of camouflage it can be a type of camouflage it can be a type of camouflage so that's the camouflage for the radar so that's the camouflage for the radar so that's the camouflage for the radar but what about but what about but what about the surface air missile the surface air missile the surface air missile is that is that a legitimate way to is that is that a legitimate way to is that is that a legitimate way to avoid missiles flies so low like fly i avoid missiles flies so low like fly i avoid missiles flies so low like fly i guess below their uh guess below their uh guess below their uh their level their level their level as far as i know you know you can fly as far as i know you know you can fly as far as i know you know you can fly under any radar right now

under any radar right now under any radar right now we don't have necessarily radars that we don't have necessarily radars that we don't have necessarily radars that can look through anything so there is can look through anything so there is can look through anything so there is always going to be the ability to mask always going to be the ability to mask always going to be the ability to mask yourself yourself yourself but with a larger number of assets and but with a larger number of assets and but with a larger number of assets and distributed communication networks where distributed communication networks where distributed communication networks where those radars are looking makes all the those radars are looking makes all the those radars are looking makes all the difference and i said they are difference and i said they are difference and i said they are ingressing pass in is and that's an ingressing pass in is and that's an ingressing pass in is and that's an integrated air defense system and that integrated air defense system and that integrated air defense system and that linking of linking of linking of air defense systems is what makes it um air defense systems is what makes it um air defense systems is what makes it um so hard so complicated is that the so hard so complicated is that the so hard so complicated is that the sensors and the weapons are sensors and the weapons are sensors and the weapons are disassociated from each other so that if disassociated from each other so that if disassociated from each other so that if you took out the target that was you took out the target that was you took out the target that was shooting at you it still has the ability shooting at you it still has the ability shooting at you it still has the ability to um to intercept you from another to um to intercept you from another to um to intercept you from another radar location radar location radar location so it's distributed and it's stronger so it's distributed and it's stronger so it's distributed and it's stronger that way that way that way you mean the the surface-to-air missiles you mean the the surface-to-air missiles you mean the the surface-to-air missiles if you like it's a if you like it's a if you like it's a it's a distributed system and that if it's a distributed system and that if it's a distributed system and that if you take out one you take out one you take out one they're still able to they're still able to they're still able to sort of integrate information about your sort of integrate information about your sort of integrate information about your location and strike at you correct and location and strike at you correct and location and strike at you correct and there's a lot of complication that can there's a lot of complication that can there's a lot of complication that can go you know once we start thinking about go you know once we start thinking about go you know once we start thinking about distributed systems like that and the distributed systems like that and the distributed systems like that and the ability to self-heal and repair and ability to self-heal and repair and ability to self-heal and repair and adapt to adapt to adapt to losses losses losses it's an interesting area are you it's an interesting area are you it's an interesting area are you responsible for thinking about that when responsible for thinking about that when responsible for thinking about that when you're flying an airplane to some degree you're flying an airplane to some degree you're flying an airplane to some degree when we ingress to an area like that when we ingress to an area like that when we ingress to an area like that we're presented with we're presented with we're presented with information about targets air to air or information about targets air to air or information about targets air to air or air to surface or surface to air i air to surface or surface to air i air to surface or surface to air i should say should say should say and we can essentially see where and we can essentially see where and we can essentially see where essentially the danger zone if you will essentially the danger zone if you will essentially the danger zone if you will is located is located is located and so essentially we would stay out of and so essentially we would stay out of and so essentially we would stay out of that and so having a full picture of

that and so having a full picture of that and so having a full picture of the environment is extremely important the environment is extremely important the environment is extremely important because you know at the end of the day because you know at the end of the day because you know at the end of the day if we go in that circle we can die if we go in that circle we can die if we go in that circle we can die pretty quickly so pretty quickly so pretty quickly so it's absolutely crucial so there's it's absolutely crucial so there's it's absolutely crucial so there's regions that have higher and lower regions that have higher and lower regions that have higher and lower danger danger danger based on your understanding of the based on your understanding of the based on your understanding of the actual whatever the the the the actual whatever the the the the actual whatever the the the the surface-to-air missile systems are so surface-to-air missile systems are so surface-to-air missile systems are so you can kind of know you can kind of know you can kind of know that's interesting i wonder how that's interesting i wonder how that's interesting i wonder how automated that could be too especially automated that could be too especially automated that could be too especially when you don't know when you don't know when you don't know it seems like in the movie they knew the it seems like in the movie they knew the it seems like in the movie they knew the location of everything location of everything location of everything um i imagine that's less known in most um i imagine that's less known in most um i imagine that's less known in most cases cases cases and also and also and also a lot of those systems might be a little a lot of those systems might be a little a lot of those systems might be a little bit more bit more bit more ghetto if i can use that technical term ghetto if i can use that technical term ghetto if i can use that technical term like um i've gotten uh ad hoc maybe is like um i've gotten uh ad hoc maybe is like um i've gotten uh ad hoc maybe is the uh the uh the uh i don't know but you know having uh just i don't know but you know having uh just i don't know but you know having uh just recently visited ukraine and seeing a recently visited ukraine and seeing a recently visited ukraine and seeing a lot of aspects of the way that war is lot of aspects of the way that war is lot of aspects of the way that war is fought there's a lot of improvised type fought there's a lot of improvised type fought there's a lot of improvised type of systems so you take height of systems so you take height of systems so you take height uh high-tech like advanced technology uh high-tech like advanced technology uh high-tech like advanced technology but the way you deploy it and the way but the way you deploy it and the way but the way you deploy it and the way you organize it is very you organize it is very you organize it is very improvised and ad hoc and is responding improvised and ad hoc and is responding improvised and ad hoc and is responding to the uncertainty in the dynamic to the uncertainty in the dynamic to the uncertainty in the dynamic environment and so environment and so environment and so from an enemy perspective or whoever is from an enemy perspective or whoever is from an enemy perspective or whoever is trying to deal with that kind of system trying to deal with that kind of system trying to deal with that kind of system it's hard to figure it out because uh it's hard to figure it out because uh it's hard to figure it out because uh it's like me it's like me it's like me i played tennis for a long time i played tennis for a long time i played tennis for a long time and it's always easier to play this is and it's always easier to play this is and it's always easier to play this is true for all sports uh play tennis true for all sports uh play tennis true for all sports uh play tennis against a good tennis player versus a against a good tennis player versus a against a good tennis player versus a crappy tennis crappy tennis crappy tennis because the crappy tennis player is full because the crappy tennis player is full because the crappy tennis player is full of uncertainty of uncertainty of uncertainty uh and that's really difficult to deal uh and that's really difficult to deal uh and that's really difficult to deal with it seemed like in the movie the

with it seemed like in the movie the with it seemed like in the movie the systems were really well organized systems were really well organized systems were really well organized uh and so you could plan and there's a uh and so you could plan and there's a uh and so you could plan and there's a very nice ravine that went right down very nice ravine that went right down very nice ravine that went right down the middle of them that's how movies the middle of them that's how movies the middle of them that's how movies work isn't it yeah but no i i absolutely work isn't it yeah but no i i absolutely work isn't it yeah but no i i absolutely agree so you know um what you say is is agree so you know um what you say is is agree so you know um what you say is is a very good point and as you know if we a very good point and as you know if we a very good point and as you know if we were to take a a were to take a a were to take a a a chunk of airspace and break it up into a chunk of airspace and break it up into a chunk of airspace and break it up into little bits you know there'd be places little bits you know there'd be places little bits you know there'd be places that are better to fly or less less good that are better to fly or less less good that are better to fly or less less good to fly to fly to fly um and um and um and you know we are seeing that now with you know we are seeing that now with you know we are seeing that now with what they call manned unmanned teaming what they call manned unmanned teaming what they call manned unmanned teaming uh we see tactical aircraft or you know uh we see tactical aircraft or you know uh we see tactical aircraft or you know some type of aircraft or platform that's some type of aircraft or platform that's some type of aircraft or platform that's being uh automated and it's not being on being uh automated and it's not being on being uh automated and it's not being on made in traditional sense uh where made in traditional sense uh where made in traditional sense uh where people think air crew are flying around people think air crew are flying around people think air crew are flying around to conduct missions but it's very high to conduct missions but it's very high to conduct missions but it's very high level uh objective orientated uh mission level uh objective orientated uh mission level uh objective orientated uh mission planning that allows the air crew to act planning that allows the air crew to act planning that allows the air crew to act more as a mission planner more as a mission planner more as a mission planner mission commander versus having to just mission commander versus having to just mission commander versus having to just pick the right assets or fly them around pick the right assets or fly them around pick the right assets or fly them around and or manipulate them and or manipulate them and or manipulate them um um um somewhat physically somewhat physically somewhat physically so actually going back to the chest so actually going back to the chest so actually going back to the chest thing can you elaborate on what you mean thing can you elaborate on what you mean thing can you elaborate on what you mean playing a game of chess with yourself playing a game of chess with yourself playing a game of chess with yourself what's when you're flying that mission what's when you're flying that mission what's when you're flying that mission what exactly do you mean by that well what exactly do you mean by that well what exactly do you mean by that well there's a few people you're usually there's a few people you're usually there's a few people you're usually fighting against in the air you know fighting against in the air you know fighting against in the air you know there's the bad guys and then there's uh there's the bad guys and then there's uh there's the bad guys and then there's uh physics and and mother nature right so physics and and mother nature right so physics and and mother nature right so um um um when we're down at about 100 feet um when we're down at about 100 feet um when we're down at about 100 feet um it's a chess game to stay alive for the it's a chess game to stay alive for the it's a chess game to stay alive for the pilot and it's a chess game for the pilot and it's a chess game for the pilot and it's a chess game for the wizzo to wizzo to wizzo to process the information he needs and process the information he needs and process the information he needs and then communicate it to all those other then communicate it to all those other then communicate it to all those other aircraft that were flying around to

aircraft that were flying around to aircraft that were flying around to ensure that they're putting their ensure that they're putting their ensure that they're putting their weapons on the right target what's the weapons on the right target what's the weapons on the right target what's the wizzo wizzo wizzo wizzo is a weapons systems officer he's wizzo is a weapons systems officer he's wizzo is a weapons systems officer he's a backseater who is not a pilot but a backseater who is not a pilot but a backseater who is not a pilot but they're responsible for radar they're responsible for radar they're responsible for radar manipulation and communications and uh manipulation and communications and uh manipulation and communications and uh weapons appointments of certain natures weapons appointments of certain natures weapons appointments of certain natures so the the chess game is against physics so the the chess game is against physics so the the chess game is against physics against the enemy against the enemy against the enemy uh uh uh time time time time what about your own time what about your own time what about your own psychology fear psychology fear psychology fear uncertainty no uncertainty no uncertainty no no there's no time for that type of no there's no time for that type of no there's no time for that type of self-reflection while we're flying i want to get i want to get to that but i want to get i want to get to that but i i don't want to forget the point that i i don't want to forget the point that i i don't want to forget the point that you made about increased randomness you made about increased randomness you made about increased randomness being a tactical advantage you know as being a tactical advantage you know as being a tactical advantage you know as we we we as you mentioned you know you can as you mentioned you know you can as you mentioned you know you can introduce autonomy in there and when you introduce autonomy in there and when you introduce autonomy in there and when you when you bring autonomy in there and my when you bring autonomy in there and my when you bring autonomy in there and my expectation would be as we bring expectation would be as we bring expectation would be as we bring different uh abilities and machine different uh abilities and machine different uh abilities and machine learning as we gather more data um we're learning as we gather more data um we're learning as we gather more data um we're going to be able to bring the the going to be able to bring the the going to be able to bring the the tactical environment around that jet the tactical environment around that jet the tactical environment around that jet the war space that it goes into will almost war space that it goes into will almost war space that it goes into will almost be at a stochastic level from the be at a stochastic level from the be at a stochastic level from the enemy's perspective where it'll almost enemy's perspective where it'll almost enemy's perspective where it'll almost seem like seem like seem like every tactical environment they go in every tactical environment they go in every tactical environment they go in will be random and yet very deadly will be random and yet very deadly will be random and yet very deadly because because because the system is providing a new tactical the system is providing a new tactical the system is providing a new tactical solution essentially for that particular solution essentially for that particular solution essentially for that particular scenario instead of just training to scenario instead of just training to scenario instead of just training to particular tactics that have to be particular tactics that have to be particular tactics that have to be repeatable and trainable and lethal repeatable and trainable and lethal repeatable and trainable and lethal right but not necessarily the most right but not necessarily the most right but not necessarily the most lethal because they have to be trainable lethal because they have to be trainable lethal because they have to be trainable uh but if we can introduce ai into that uh but if we can introduce ai into that uh but if we can introduce ai into that into and to have a level of randomness into and to have a level of randomness into and to have a level of randomness or at least the appearance of randomness or at least the appearance of randomness or at least the appearance of randomness due to the complexity due to the complexity due to the complexity you know i would say like a stochastic

you know i would say like a stochastic you know i would say like a stochastic uh tactical advantage because even our uh tactical advantage because even our uh tactical advantage because even our own blue fighters won't be able to own blue fighters won't be able to own blue fighters won't be able to engage in that fight because it would it engage in that fight because it would it engage in that fight because it would it would be unsafe essentially for anything would be unsafe essentially for anything would be unsafe essentially for anything else uh and i think that's where we have else uh and i think that's where we have else uh and i think that's where we have to drive to because otherwise it's to drive to because otherwise it's to drive to because otherwise it's always this chicken and mouse cat game always this chicken and mouse cat game always this chicken and mouse cat game about whose tactics and who knows what about whose tactics and who knows what about whose tactics and who knows what but if knowledge is no longer a factor but if knowledge is no longer a factor but if knowledge is no longer a factor um it's gonna make things a lot um it's gonna make things a lot um it's gonna make things a lot different that's really interesting so different that's really interesting so different that's really interesting so out of the many things out of the many things out of the many things uh that are part of your expertise your uh that are part of your expertise your uh that are part of your expertise your your journey you're also working on your journey you're also working on your journey you're also working on autonomous and semi-autonomous systems autonomous and semi-autonomous systems autonomous and semi-autonomous systems the use of ai and machine learning and the use of ai and machine learning and the use of ai and machine learning and uh man-to-man teaming all that kind of uh man-to-man teaming all that kind of uh man-to-man teaming all that kind of stuff we'll talk about it stuff we'll talk about it stuff we'll talk about it but you're saying but you're saying but you're saying sort of when people think about the use sort of when people think about the use sort of when people think about the use of ai in war of ai in war of ai in war in military systems they think about in military systems they think about in military systems they think about like like like computer vision for perception or computer vision for perception or computer vision for perception or processing of sensor information in processing of sensor information in processing of sensor information in order to extract from it actionable order to extract from it actionable order to extract from it actionable knowledge kind of thing but you're knowledge kind of thing but you're knowledge kind of thing but you're saying you could also use it to generate saying you could also use it to generate saying you could also use it to generate randomness that's difficult randomness that's difficult randomness that's difficult to work with in a like a game theoretic to work with in a like a game theoretic to work with in a like a game theoretic way like it's difficult to respo for way like it's difficult to respo for way like it's difficult to respo for human operators to respond to exactly human operators to respond to exactly human operators to respond to exactly that's really interesting okay so that's really interesting okay so that's really interesting okay so back back to tom cruise and top gun back back to tom cruise and top gun back back to tom cruise and top gun what about the dog fighting uh what what about the dog fighting uh what what about the dog fighting uh what aspects of that were accurate so dog aspects of that were accurate so dog aspects of that were accurate so dog fighting is kind of uh an interesting fighting is kind of uh an interesting fighting is kind of uh an interesting conversation because it's not the most conversation because it's not the most conversation because it's not the most tactically relevant skill set nowadays tactically relevant skill set nowadays tactically relevant skill set nowadays uh by traditional standards because the uh by traditional standards because the uh by traditional standards because the the ranges with which we engage and the ranges with which we engage and the ranges with which we engage and employ weapons are very employ weapons are very employ weapons are very uh significant uh and so if we're in a

uh significant uh and so if we're in a uh significant uh and so if we're in a scenario we're in a dog fight like that scenario we're in a dog fight like that scenario we're in a dog fight like that um um um a lot of things have probably gone wrong a lot of things have probably gone wrong a lot of things have probably gone wrong right and that's kind of how this right and that's kind of how this right and that's kind of how this mission was set up right it was a you mission was set up right it was a you mission was set up right it was a you know a no-win type scenario most likely know a no-win type scenario most likely know a no-win type scenario most likely um and so for a dog fight the aircraft um and so for a dog fight the aircraft um and so for a dog fight the aircraft size and the ranges and the turn size and the ranges and the turn size and the ranges and the turn radiuses make it so it's not very radiuses make it so it's not very radiuses make it so it's not very theatrical right the aircraft looks theatrical right the aircraft looks theatrical right the aircraft looks small and while it's intense with the small and while it's intense with the small and while it's intense with the systems i have and the sensors and what systems i have and the sensors and what systems i have and the sensors and what i'm feeling and all that i'm feeling and all that i'm feeling and all that if i you know we've done it and we've if i you know we've done it and we've if i you know we've done it and we've done it right we take video of that and done it right we take video of that and done it right we take video of that and it's just like a blue sky and you see a it's just like a blue sky and you see a it's just like a blue sky and you see a little dot out there so not very little dot out there so not very little dot out there so not very interesting and so interesting and so interesting and so anytime it really looks interesting in anytime it really looks interesting in anytime it really looks interesting in dogfight arena um that's most likely uh dogfight arena um that's most likely uh dogfight arena um that's most likely uh fiction because we really only get close fiction because we really only get close fiction because we really only get close for you know a millisecond as we're for you know a millisecond as we're for you know a millisecond as we're zipping past each other at the merge zipping past each other at the merge zipping past each other at the merge you're breaking my heart right i know you're breaking my heart right i know you're breaking my heart right i know breaking my heart breaking my heart breaking my heart no i understand you can go and have fun no i understand you can go and have fun no i understand you can go and have fun but you know in a dog fight specifically but you know in a dog fight specifically but you know in a dog fight specifically maybe that was more common in the maybe that was more common in the maybe that was more common in the earlier wars of world war two and before earlier wars of world war two and before earlier wars of world war two and before that where the is it due to the that where the is it due to the that where the is it due to the sort of the range and the effectiveness sort of the range and the effectiveness sort of the range and the effectiveness of the weapon systems involved exactly of the weapon systems involved exactly of the weapon systems involved exactly and the accuracy of the targeting and the accuracy of the targeting and the accuracy of the targeting systems at range but there's also a systems at range but there's also a systems at range but there's also a train of thought um train of thought um train of thought um that hasn't actually been tested out yet that hasn't actually been tested out yet that hasn't actually been tested out yet which is with the advent of which is with the advent of which is with the advent of advanced electronic warfare ew advanced electronic warfare ew advanced electronic warfare ew and or and or and or unmanned assets the battle space may get unmanned assets the battle space may get unmanned assets the battle space may get so complex and missiles so complex and missiles so complex and missiles may essentially just get may essentially just get may essentially just get dropped out of the sky or wasted such dropped out of the sky or wasted such dropped out of the sky or wasted such that you're going to be in close with that you're going to be in close with that you're going to be in close with either ir missiles or guns uh if it's a either ir missiles or guns uh if it's a either ir missiles or guns uh if it's a no kidding no kidding no kidding um um um you know must defend type scenario first

you know must defend type scenario first you know must defend type scenario first of all what's electronic warfare you of all what's electronic warfare you of all what's electronic warfare you know it's basically trying to get know it's basically trying to get know it's basically trying to get control of electromagnetic spectrum control of electromagnetic spectrum control of electromagnetic spectrum for the interest of um whatever for the interest of um whatever for the interest of um whatever operation is going on so in the tactical operation is going on so in the tactical operation is going on so in the tactical environment a lot of that is trying to environment a lot of that is trying to environment a lot of that is trying to deceive the radar or can we deceive the deceive the radar or can we deceive the deceive the radar or can we deceive the missile or just you know stop their missile or just you know stop their missile or just you know stop their guide and things of that nature guide and things of that nature guide and things of that nature man it's a battle in the space of man it's a battle in the space of man it's a battle in the space of information of digital information information of digital information information of digital information yeah that well f-22 and f-35 right f-22 yeah that well f-22 and f-35 right f-22 yeah that well f-22 and f-35 right f-22 is a big expensive aircraft and it was is a big expensive aircraft and it was is a big expensive aircraft and it was made to be a great fighter made to be a great fighter made to be a great fighter but the f-35 is not as great of a but the f-35 is not as great of a but the f-35 is not as great of a fighter but it's it's an electronic fighter but it's it's an electronic fighter but it's it's an electronic warfare and mission commander platform warfare and mission commander platform warfare and mission commander platform of the future of the future of the future where information is what's going to win where information is what's going to win where information is what's going to win the war instead of the best dog fighter the war instead of the best dog fighter the war instead of the best dog fighter and so it's interesting dichotomy there and so it's interesting dichotomy there and so it's interesting dichotomy there what's the best airplane ever made what's the best airplane ever made what's the best airplane ever made fighter jet ever made i know the fighter jet ever made i know the fighter jet ever made i know the aviators in the in the audience are aviators in the in the audience are aviators in the in the audience are gonna hate my answer because they're gonna hate my answer because they're gonna hate my answer because they're gonna want that sexy you know muscly gonna want that sexy you know muscly gonna want that sexy you know muscly f-14 tomcat type fighter or or maybe f-14 tomcat type fighter or or maybe f-14 tomcat type fighter or or maybe p-51 type aircraft but p-51 type aircraft but p-51 type aircraft but the the the f-35 is maybe not the best dog fighter f-35 is maybe not the best dog fighter f-35 is maybe not the best dog fighter but it doesn't have to get in a dog but it doesn't have to get in a dog but it doesn't have to get in a dog fight right it's like how you'd be the fight right it's like how you'd be the fight right it's like how you'd be the best knife fighters not getting a knife best knife fighters not getting a knife best knife fighters not getting a knife fight sometimes lockheed martin f-35 fight sometimes lockheed martin f-35 fight sometimes lockheed martin f-35 lightning ii lightning ii lightning ii it looks pretty sexy there's two real it looks pretty sexy there's two real it looks pretty sexy there's two real strengths you can have as a fighter you strengths you can have as a fighter you strengths you can have as a fighter you can you can have the ability to kind of can you can have the ability to kind of can you can have the ability to kind of out muscle your fighter uh your your out muscle your fighter uh your your out muscle your fighter uh your your opponent and beat them on g's and power opponent and beat them on g's and power opponent and beat them on g's and power and rate around on them and then there's and rate around on them and then there's and rate around on them and then there's the other side of that which is uh you the other side of that which is uh you the other side of that which is uh you can be overly maneuverable can be overly maneuverable can be overly maneuverable uh you can bleed energy quickly and

uh you can bleed energy quickly and uh you can bleed energy quickly and that's what the f 3 f 18 was good at that's what the f 3 f 18 was good at that's what the f 3 f 18 was good at because it had to be heavier to land on because it had to be heavier to land on because it had to be heavier to land on the aircraft carrier we had to give it the aircraft carrier we had to give it the aircraft carrier we had to give it extra bulk extra bulk extra bulk but it also needed special mechanisms to but it also needed special mechanisms to but it also needed special mechanisms to slow down enough to land on aircraft slow down enough to land on aircraft slow down enough to land on aircraft carrier so it made it very maneuverable carrier so it made it very maneuverable carrier so it made it very maneuverable and what that leads to a lot of times and what that leads to a lot of times and what that leads to a lot of times the ability to get maybe the first shot the ability to get maybe the first shot the ability to get maybe the first shot in a fight in a fight in a fight which is very good but if you do make which is very good but if you do make which is very good but if you do make that sharp turn you're going to bleed a that sharp turn you're going to bleed a that sharp turn you're going to bleed a lot of energy away and be more lot of energy away and be more lot of energy away and be more susceptible for follow-on shots if that susceptible for follow-on shots if that susceptible for follow-on shots if that one's less susceptible and so there's one's less susceptible and so there's one's less susceptible and so there's this kind of aggression non-aggression this kind of aggression non-aggression this kind of aggression non-aggression game you can play depending on the type game you can play depending on the type game you can play depending on the type of aircraft you're fighting where does of aircraft you're fighting where does of aircraft you're fighting where does the f-35 land on that spectrum the f-35 the f-35 land on that spectrum the f-35 the f-35 land on that spectrum the f-35 lands somewhere behind the f-22s so lands somewhere behind the f-22s so lands somewhere behind the f-22s so there'll probably be a row of f-22s or there'll probably be a row of f-22s or there'll probably be a row of f-22s or f-18s and f-35 will be out back but f-18s and f-35 will be out back but f-18s and f-35 will be out back but it'll be enabling a lot of the warfare it'll be enabling a lot of the warfare it'll be enabling a lot of the warfare that's happening in front is it one of that's happening in front is it one of that's happening in front is it one of the more expensive planes the more expensive planes the more expensive planes because of all the stuff on it it because of all the stuff on it it because of all the stuff on it it certainly is yeah certainly is yeah certainly is yeah in the movie they have tom cruise flied in the movie they have tom cruise flied in the movie they have tom cruise flied over mach 10. so maybe over mach 10. so maybe over mach 10. so maybe can you say can you say can you say what are the different speeds what are the different speeds what are the different speeds accelerations feel like mach 1 2 3 accelerations feel like mach 1 2 3 accelerations feel like mach 1 2 3 or hypersonic have you ever flown or hypersonic have you ever flown or hypersonic have you ever flown hypersonic no hypersonic no hypersonic no um does it get how tough does it get um does it get how tough does it get um does it get how tough does it get i'm just going to call out the the bs of i'm just going to call out the the bs of i'm just going to call out the the bs of ejecting at mach 10 just for the record ejecting at mach 10 just for the record ejecting at mach 10 just for the record because in the movie uh there's been i because in the movie uh there's been i because in the movie uh there's been i think at least one ejection that was think at least one ejection that was think at least one ejection that was super sonic uh and i'll just say you super sonic uh and i'll just say you super sonic uh and i'll just say you know it was not pretty but he survived know it was not pretty but he survived know it was not pretty but he survived um so there have to be some interesting um so there have to be some interesting um so there have to be some interesting mechanisms to eject successfully at mach mechanisms to eject successfully at mach mechanisms to eject successfully at mach 10 but i'll digress

yeah yeah uh but anyway so what uh but anyway so what uh but anyway so what um um um what's interesting to say about the what's interesting to say about the what's interesting to say about the experience of ma of the as you go up experience of ma of the as you go up experience of ma of the as you go up does it get more and more difficult does it get more and more difficult does it get more and more difficult in the end of the day crossing the sound in the end of the day crossing the sound in the end of the day crossing the sound bear is much like crossing the speed bear is much like crossing the speed bear is much like crossing the speed limit on the highway you don't really limit on the highway you don't really limit on the highway you don't really notice anything notice anything notice anything um um um to cross that at least an f-18 because to cross that at least an f-18 because to cross that at least an f-18 because we have a lot more weight than most we have a lot more weight than most we have a lot more weight than most fighters is typically we'll do that in a fighters is typically we'll do that in a fighters is typically we'll do that in a descent descent descent and we'll do that a full afterburner and we'll do that a full afterburner and we'll do that a full afterburner just dumping gas into the engine just dumping gas into the engine just dumping gas into the engine and so that'll get us over the fastest i and so that'll get us over the fastest i and so that'll get us over the fastest i think i've got about 1.28 think i've got about 1.28 think i've got about 1.28 but what's interesting people realize is but what's interesting people realize is but what's interesting people realize is that if i take that throttle and i'm an that if i take that throttle and i'm an that if i take that throttle and i'm an afterburner and i just bring it back and afterburner and i just bring it back and afterburner and i just bring it back and just bring it back to mill which is full just bring it back to mill which is full just bring it back to mill which is full power just not afterburner the power just not afterburner the power just not afterburner the deacceleration is so strong due to the deacceleration is so strong due to the deacceleration is so strong due to the air friction that it throw you forward air friction that it throw you forward air friction that it throw you forward in your straps almost you know i would in your straps almost you know i would in your straps almost you know i would say you know maybe like 70 of strong say you know maybe like 70 of strong say you know maybe like 70 of strong almost as has trapping on the boat it's almost as has trapping on the boat it's almost as has trapping on the boat it's pretty strong pretty strong pretty strong so it's almost like a reverse car crash so it's almost like a reverse car crash so it's almost like a reverse car crash just for the acceleration so the just for the acceleration so the just for the acceleration so the acceleration you know is usually kind of acceleration you know is usually kind of acceleration you know is usually kind of slow and you don't feel anything of slow and you don't feel anything of slow and you don't feel anything of course when you're crossing through it course when you're crossing through it course when you're crossing through it but the acceleration is pretty violent but the acceleration is pretty violent but the acceleration is pretty violent the deceleration is violent huh okay the deceleration is violent huh okay the deceleration is violent huh okay uh but is there uh but is there uh but is there is there a fundamental difference is there a fundamental difference is there a fundamental difference between like mach 1 and hypersonic mach between like mach 1 and hypersonic mach between like mach 1 and hypersonic mach 5 and so on does it require like super 5 and so on does it require like super 5 and so on does it require like super special training special training special training and is that something that's and is that something that's and is that something that's used often in warfare is that not really used often in warfare is that not really used often in warfare is that not really that no so hypersonic human flight in if that no so hypersonic human flight in if that no so hypersonic human flight in if it exists it's not something that's it exists it's not something that's it exists it's not something that's employed tactically employed tactically employed tactically in um in any sense right now that i'm in um in any sense right now that i'm in um in any sense right now that i'm aware of so aware of so aware of so um you know i think of hypersonic um

um you know i think of hypersonic um um you know i think of hypersonic um technology i think of uh missiles and technology i think of uh missiles and technology i think of uh missiles and weapon systems and delivery platform i weapon systems and delivery platform i weapon systems and delivery platform i don't think of fighter aircraft don't think of fighter aircraft don't think of fighter aircraft necessarily i can think of bomber or necessarily i can think of bomber or necessarily i can think of bomber or reconnaissance aircraft perhaps reconnaissance aircraft perhaps reconnaissance aircraft perhaps but those would be more efficient very but those would be more efficient very but those would be more efficient very long long range i imagine acceleration long long range i imagine acceleration long long range i imagine acceleration would be kind of gentle honestly would be kind of gentle honestly would be kind of gentle honestly the thing you experience is the the thing you experience is the the thing you experience is the acceleration not the actual speed acceleration not the actual speed acceleration not the actual speed um there's been just a small tangent a um there's been just a small tangent a um there's been just a small tangent a lot of discussion about hypersonic lot of discussion about hypersonic lot of discussion about hypersonic nuclear weapons like missiles from you nuclear weapons like missiles from you nuclear weapons like missiles from you know russia know russia know russia uh bragging about that is this something uh bragging about that is this something uh bragging about that is this something that's a significant concern or is it that's a significant concern or is it that's a significant concern or is it just a way to flex about different kinds just a way to flex about different kinds just a way to flex about different kinds of weapon systems of weapon systems of weapon systems hypersonics i do think pose uh a hypersonics i do think pose uh a hypersonics i do think pose uh a challenge for our detection systems challenge for our detection systems challenge for our detection systems because there are because there are because there are um um um you know there are design considerations you know there are design considerations you know there are design considerations in these sensor systems as always right in these sensor systems as always right in these sensor systems as always right and when you build them and the and when you build them and the and when you build them and the technology progresses to a point where technology progresses to a point where technology progresses to a point where maybe it's not feasible to use that maybe it's not feasible to use that maybe it's not feasible to use that technology you know there's a problem technology you know there's a problem technology you know there's a problem but with the but with the but with the you know the all domain and kind of you know the all domain and kind of you know the all domain and kind of cross domain data linking capabilities cross domain data linking capabilities cross domain data linking capabilities we have um we have um we have um it's less of you know it's less of you know it's less of you know it's a more of an integrated picture it's a more of an integrated picture it's a more of an integrated picture i'll say um and so the hypersonics i'll say um and so the hypersonics i'll say um and so the hypersonics are really are really are really what it is is uh how fast can we detect what it is is uh how fast can we detect what it is is uh how fast can we detect and destroy problem you're just and destroy problem you're just and destroy problem you're just shortening the time available to do that shortening the time available to do that shortening the time available to do that we call something like that the kill we call something like that the kill we call something like that the kill chain right it's it's from chain right it's it's from chain right it's it's from um locating a target and identifying it um locating a target and identifying it um locating a target and identifying it and and and you know essentially authorizing its you know essentially authorizing its you know essentially authorizing its destruction by whatever means uh destruction by whatever means uh destruction by whatever means uh employing and then actually following up employing and then actually following up employing and then actually following up to ensure that you did what you said you

to ensure that you did what you said you to ensure that you did what you said you were going to do in some sense right were going to do in some sense right were going to do in some sense right does it need another re-attack something does it need another re-attack something does it need another re-attack something of that nature and so of that nature and so of that nature and so there's an old dog fighting framework there's an old dog fighting framework there's an old dog fighting framework you could call it it's called the ooda you could call it it's called the ooda you could call it it's called the ooda loop that kind of made its way in the loop that kind of made its way in the loop that kind of made its way in the engineering business now but the old engineering business now but the old engineering business now but the old observe orientated side act was observe orientated side act was observe orientated side act was initially a a fighter mechanism in order initially a a fighter mechanism in order initially a a fighter mechanism in order to get inside that kill chain of your to get inside that kill chain of your to get inside that kill chain of your opponent and break it up so that he opponent and break it up so that he opponent and break it up so that he can't can't can't uh process his kill chain on you and so uh process his kill chain on you and so uh process his kill chain on you and so hypersonic's a way of shortening those hypersonic's a way of shortening those hypersonic's a way of shortening those those windows of opportunity to to those windows of opportunity to to those windows of opportunity to to react to that react to that react to that i wonder what do like how much do you i wonder what do like how much do you i wonder what do like how much do you have to shorten it in order for have to shorten it in order for have to shorten it in order for the defense systems not to work anymore the defense systems not to work anymore the defense systems not to work anymore it seems like uh it seems like uh it seems like uh it's very you know i it's very you know i it's very you know i i'm both often horrified by the thought i'm both often horrified by the thought i'm both often horrified by the thought of nuclear war of nuclear war of nuclear war but at the same time but at the same time but at the same time wonder wonder wonder what that looks like what that looks like what that looks like when i i dream of extreme competence in when i i dream of extreme competence in when i i dream of extreme competence in defense systems i imagine that not a defense systems i imagine that not a defense systems i imagine that not a single nuclear weapon can reach the single nuclear weapon can reach the single nuclear weapon can reach the united states by missile united states by missile united states by missile with the defense system with the defense system with the defense system defense systems but then again i also defense systems but then again i also defense systems but then again i also understand that these are extremely understand that these are extremely understand that these are extremely complicated systems the amount of complicated systems the amount of complicated systems the amount of integration required and because you're integration required and because you're integration required and because you're not using them not using them not using them i mean this is exactly i mean this is exactly i mean this is exactly there could be you know there's like an there could be you know there's like an there could be you know there's like an intern somewhere intern somewhere intern somewhere that like forgot to update the code the that like forgot to update the code the that like forgot to update the code the fortran code that like is going to be fortran code that like is going to be fortran code that like is going to be make the difference because you don't make the difference because you don't make the difference because you don't have the opportunity to really have the opportunity to really have the opportunity to really thoroughly test thoroughly test thoroughly test um which is really scary of course the um which is really scary of course the um which is really scary of course the systems are probably incredible if they

systems are probably incredible if they systems are probably incredible if they could be tested but because they can't could be tested but because they can't could be tested but because they can't be really thoroughly tested in actual be really thoroughly tested in actual be really thoroughly tested in actual um um um in an actual attack i wonder in an actual attack i wonder in an actual attack i wonder i mean i guess one assumption there i mean i guess one assumption there i mean i guess one assumption there would be that these hypersonic missiles would be that these hypersonic missiles would be that these hypersonic missiles would only be launched and the case would only be launched and the case would only be launched and the case would attack would attack would attack um it'd be interesting if there were um it'd be interesting if there were um it'd be interesting if there were other hypersonic objects that we could other hypersonic objects that we could other hypersonic objects that we could use to flex those systems use to flex those systems use to flex those systems another thing that actually happened i another thing that actually happened i another thing that actually happened i just have a million questions i want to just have a million questions i want to just have a million questions i want to ask you it's fascinating to me uh is ask you it's fascinating to me uh is ask you it's fascinating to me uh is there's a bird strike on the plane does there's a bird strike on the plane does there's a bird strike on the plane does that happen often yeah it's a series that happen often yeah it's a series that happen often yeah it's a series they damaged the the engine and they they damaged the the engine and they they damaged the the engine and they made it seem like it's a serious exactly made it seem like it's a serious exactly made it seem like it's a serious exactly a serious issue i've hit birds um i've i a serious issue i've hit birds um i've i a serious issue i've hit birds um i've i know someone that took a turkey vulture know someone that took a turkey vulture know someone that took a turkey vulture to the face to the face to the face through the cockpit right shattered the through the cockpit right shattered the through the cockpit right shattered the cockpit knocked him out cockpit knocked him out cockpit knocked him out um i think the um i think the um i think the it actually i don't know personally it actually i don't know personally it actually i don't know personally about the story i know from uh the about the story i know from uh the about the story i know from uh the command i was at and uh i believe the command i was at and uh i believe the command i was at and uh i believe the backseater had to punch out backseater had to punch out backseater had to punch out uh and punch them both out because he uh and punch them both out because he uh and punch them both out because he was unconscious you know in the front was unconscious you know in the front was unconscious you know in the front seat from the bird seat from the bird seat from the bird um it can kill you from hitting you it's um it can kill you from hitting you it's um it can kill you from hitting you it's you know it's like a bowling ball going you know it's like a bowling ball going you know it's like a bowling ball going 250 miles an hour 250 miles an hour 250 miles an hour it can take out an engine uh it can take out an engine uh it can take out an engine uh very easily uh very easily uh very easily uh every airport i've flown at in the navy every airport i've flown at in the navy every airport i've flown at in the navy i've had to check the the bird condition i've had to check the the bird condition i've had to check the the bird condition if you will to see how many birds i've if you will to see how many birds i've if you will to see how many birds i've we've had to cancel flights because of we've had to cancel flights because of we've had to cancel flights because of because there's too many of them around because there's too many of them around because there's too many of them around the airport some airports even have bird the airport some airports even have bird the airport some airports even have bird radars with no tear ports there are radars with no tear ports there are radars with no tear ports there are systems that monitor the bird condition systems that monitor the bird condition systems that monitor the bird condition there is yeah there's actual radar there is yeah there's actual radar there is yeah there's actual radar systems and you can go in the systems and you can go in the systems and you can go in the certain bases you have to call up and certain bases you have to call up and certain bases you have to call up and they'll tell you what it is for the day they'll tell you what it is for the day they'll tell you what it is for the day or for that hour and other ones having

or for that hour and other ones having or for that hour and other ones having like their their weather report that like their their weather report that like their their weather report that goes out with the radio goes out with the radio goes out with the radio what are some technological solutions to what are some technological solutions to what are some technological solutions to this or is this just this or is this just this or is this just uh uh uh because it's a low probability event because it's a low probability event because it's a low probability event there's no real solution for it i would there's no real solution for it i would there's no real solution for it i would say it's not a little probably develop say it's not a little probably develop say it's not a little probably develop event i mean this is happening a lot i event i mean this is happening a lot i event i mean this is happening a lot i mean although the hits themselves aren't mean although the hits themselves aren't mean although the hits themselves aren't necessarily that common or i'll say a necessarily that common or i'll say a necessarily that common or i'll say a catastrophic hit either a near miss or a catastrophic hit either a near miss or a catastrophic hit either a near miss or a hit or the pilot having to actively hit or the pilot having to actively hit or the pilot having to actively maneuver to avoid it is pretty common maneuver to avoid it is pretty common maneuver to avoid it is pretty common and in fact it seems stressful it is and in fact it seems stressful it is and in fact it seems stressful it is it's so common in fact that we know that it's so common in fact that we know that it's so common in fact that we know that you never want to try to go over or you you never want to try to go over or you you never want to try to go over or you never want to go under a bird if you see never want to go under a bird if you see never want to go under a bird if you see it in front of you you always want to it in front of you you always want to it in front of you you always want to try to go over it because what they'll try to go over it because what they'll try to go over it because what they'll do immediately if they see you is and do immediately if they see you is and do immediately if they see you is and you startle vegetables they'll bring you startle vegetables they'll bring you startle vegetables they'll bring their wings in and just drop straight their wings in and just drop straight their wings in and just drop straight down to try to get out of the path it's down to try to get out of the path it's down to try to get out of the path it's interesting i didn't know they did that interesting i didn't know they did that interesting i didn't know they did that but so if you immediately if you try to but so if you immediately if you try to but so if you immediately if you try to go under them they're going to be go under them they're going to be go under them they're going to be dropping into you so you typically want dropping into you so you typically want dropping into you so you typically want to try to go above them is this to try to go above them is this to try to go above them is this something you can train for or no um something you can train for or no um something you can train for or no um is this one of those things you have to is this one of those things you have to is this one of those things you have to really experience it's a skill set that really experience it's a skill set that really experience it's a skill set that um um um you somewhat trained for you somewhat trained for you somewhat trained for in the duties of being a fighter pilot in the duties of being a fighter pilot in the duties of being a fighter pilot in a sense right being able to react to in a sense right being able to react to in a sense right being able to react to your environment very quickly and make your environment very quickly and make your environment very quickly and make make decisions quickly so is that one of make decisions quickly so is that one of make decisions quickly so is that one of the more absurd things challenges you the more absurd things challenges you the more absurd things challenges you have to deal with in flying is there have to deal with in flying is there have to deal with in flying is there other things sort of maybe weather other things sort of maybe weather other things sort of maybe weather conditions conditions conditions like harsh weather conditions is there like harsh weather conditions is there like harsh weather conditions is there something that we maybe don't often something that we maybe don't often something that we maybe don't often think about in terms of think about in terms of think about in terms of the challenges of flying birds in a way the challenges of flying birds in a way the challenges of flying birds in a way aren't a ridiculous threat for us it's aren't a ridiculous threat for us it's aren't a ridiculous threat for us it's it's it's it's a safety threat that a safety threat that a safety threat that you know anything physical in the air is

you know anything physical in the air is you know anything physical in the air is something that we really have to be something that we really have to be something that we really have to be careful about whether we're flying careful about whether we're flying careful about whether we're flying formation off of the aircraft right next formation off of the aircraft right next formation off of the aircraft right next to us or whether to us or whether to us or whether it's a turkey vulture at two thousand it's a turkey vulture at two thousand it's a turkey vulture at two thousand feet or a flock of five thousand birds feet or a flock of five thousand birds feet or a flock of five thousand birds like at the runway we have to wave off like at the runway we have to wave off like at the runway we have to wave off you know and you know and you know and although they're low probability a lot although they're low probability a lot although they're low probability a lot of bases will have like actual of bases will have like actual of bases will have like actual environmental protection agency environmental protection agency environmental protection agency employees that are responsible for employees that are responsible for employees that are responsible for safely removing migratory birds or safely removing migratory birds or safely removing migratory birds or different animals different animals different animals um that may be in the runways or flying um that may be in the runways or flying um that may be in the runways or flying about about about wow i didn't know what a turkey vulture wow i didn't know what a turkey vulture wow i didn't know what a turkey vulture is and it really does look like a mix is and it really does look like a mix is and it really does look like a mix between a vulture and a turkey between a vulture and a turkey between a vulture and a turkey and look kind of dumb no offense to and look kind of dumb no offense to and look kind of dumb no offense to turkey vultures um was it uh i mean i think i guess they was it uh i mean i think i guess they were implying it's iran were implying it's iran were implying it's iran or or is it russia i didn't think they or or is it russia i didn't think they or or is it russia i didn't think they were implying any particular nation were implying any particular nation were implying any particular nation state frankly i think they did a state frankly i think they did a state frankly i think they did a somewhat decent job of having some somewhat decent job of having some somewhat decent job of having some ambiguous fifth generation fighters ambiguous fifth generation fighters ambiguous fifth generation fighters um um um the location and and the stockpile like the location and and the stockpile like the location and and the stockpile like i i get like how the story kind of i i get like how the story kind of i i get like how the story kind of insinuates certain things but they seem insinuates certain things but they seem insinuates certain things but they seem to a good job of not having anything to a good job of not having anything to a good job of not having anything directly pointing to another nation directly pointing to another nation directly pointing to another nation which i thought was you know the good which i thought was you know the good which i thought was you know the good move i i enjoy these type of movies as move i i enjoy these type of movies as move i i enjoy these type of movies as an aviator and an aviator and an aviator and you know as an american right because you know as an american right because you know as an american right because it's a feel-good movie but um you know it's a feel-good movie but um you know it's a feel-good movie but um you know we we shouldn't be celebrating going to we we shouldn't be celebrating going to we we shouldn't be celebrating going to war with any particular country you know war with any particular country you know war with any particular country you know china russia whoever may have these china russia whoever may have these china russia whoever may have these weapons it's it's fun to watch but it weapons it's it's fun to watch but it weapons it's it's fun to watch but it would be an incredibly serious event to would be an incredibly serious event to would be an incredibly serious event to be employing these weapons

be employing these weapons be employing these weapons yeah we'll talk about yeah we'll talk about yeah we'll talk about war in general because yeah it's the the war in general because yeah it's the the war in general because yeah it's the the movie is kind of celebrating movie is kind of celebrating movie is kind of celebrating the the the human side of things and the the the human side of things and the the the human side of things and also the incredible technology involved also the incredible technology involved also the incredible technology involved but there's also the cost of but there's also the cost of but there's also the cost of of war and the seriousness of war and of war and the seriousness of war and of war and the seriousness of war and the suffering involved with war the suffering involved with war the suffering involved with war not just in the fighting but in the not just in the fighting but in the not just in the fighting but in the death of civilians and all those kinds death of civilians and all those kinds death of civilians and all those kinds of things of things of things um um um well you were a navy pilot let's let's well you were a navy pilot let's let's well you were a navy pilot let's let's talk a little bit more uh seriously talk a little bit more uh seriously talk a little bit more uh seriously about this and you were twice deployed about this and you were twice deployed about this and you were twice deployed in the middle east flying the fa-18f in the middle east flying the fa-18f in the middle east flying the fa-18f super hornet super hornet super hornet can you briefly tell the story of your can you briefly tell the story of your can you briefly tell the story of your career as a navy pilot sure career as a navy pilot sure career as a navy pilot sure so i joined the navy in 2009 right after so i joined the navy in 2009 right after so i joined the navy in 2009 right after college i went to officer college i went to officer college i went to officer essentially officer boot camp officer essentially officer boot camp officer essentially officer boot camp officer kinder school kinder school kinder school i applied as a pilot and i got into the i applied as a pilot and i got into the i applied as a pilot and i got into the pilot that was the advantage of going pilot that was the advantage of going pilot that was the advantage of going that way is that i essentially choose that way is that i essentially choose that way is that i essentially choose what i wanted and if i got in great if what i wanted and if i got in great if what i wanted and if i got in great if not i didn't get stuck doing something not i didn't get stuck doing something not i didn't get stuck doing something else else else so you knew you wanted to be a pilot i so you knew you wanted to be a pilot i so you knew you wanted to be a pilot i did did did i joined i went through my initial i joined i went through my initial i joined i went through my initial training i went through primary flight training i went through primary flight training i went through primary flight training that all aviators go through training that all aviators go through training that all aviators go through and i did well enough that and i did well enough that and i did well enough that you know one of the first lessons they you know one of the first lessons they you know one of the first lessons they teach in the navy is that um you know teach in the navy is that um you know teach in the navy is that um you know you can have a great career in the navy you can have a great career in the navy you can have a great career in the navy and you can you know see the world and and you can you know see the world and and you can you know see the world and do what you want but at the end of the do what you want but at the end of the do what you want but at the end of the day it's all about the needs of the navy day it's all about the needs of the navy day it's all about the needs of the navy and what they need so you know they may and what they need so you know they may and what they need so you know they may not have the platform you like or you not have the platform you like or you not have the platform you like or you know you may not necessarily get to know you may not necessarily get to know you may not necessarily get to choose your own own adventure here but choose your own own adventure here but choose your own own adventure here but uh i was lucky enough that there was one uh i was lucky enough that there was one uh i was lucky enough that there was one jet slot in my class and i was uh lucky jet slot in my class and i was uh lucky jet slot in my class and i was uh lucky enough fortunate enough to get it so it

enough fortunate enough to get it so it enough fortunate enough to get it so it was a jet slot so well yeah what that was a jet slot so well yeah what that was a jet slot so well yeah what that means is that i was assigned actually a means is that i was assigned actually a means is that i was assigned actually a tail hook at that point which meant i tail hook at that point which meant i tail hook at that point which meant i would go train to fly aircraft and land would go train to fly aircraft and land would go train to fly aircraft and land on aircraft carriers on aircraft carriers on aircraft carriers um and there's essentially three um and there's essentially three um and there's essentially three aircraft that do that at the time is f18 aircraft that do that at the time is f18 aircraft that do that at the time is f18 and the um and the um and the um e2 e2 e2 and the c2 and the c2 and the c2 c2 is kind of like the male truck for c2 is kind of like the male truck for c2 is kind of like the male truck for the boat e2 is the one with the big the boat e2 is the one with the big the boat e2 is the one with the big radar dish on top radar dish on top radar dish on top and then there's all the f-18s so e2 is and then there's all the f-18s so e2 is and then there's all the f-18s so e2 is calms calms calms c2 male 2 c2 male 2 c2 male 2 yeah what's that c2 they're the ones that bring supplies to they're the ones that bring supplies to the ship via air and people sorry if i the ship via air and people sorry if i the ship via air and people sorry if i missed it is it a plane is it a missed it is it a plane is it a missed it is it a plane is it a helicopter it's a plane okay helicopter it's a plane okay helicopter it's a plane okay all right and the f-18 is a fighter jet all right and the f-18 is a fighter jet all right and the f-18 is a fighter jet correct okay so i selected tail hook correct okay so i selected tail hook correct okay so i selected tail hook which meant i could get one of those which meant i could get one of those which meant i could get one of those other ones but eighty percent of them other ones but eighty percent of them other ones but eighty percent of them were so are jets so i was in a good spot were so are jets so i was in a good spot were so are jets so i was in a good spot at that point and that's when i went to at that point and that's when i went to at that point and that's when i went to murder mississippi to fly my first jet murder mississippi to fly my first jet murder mississippi to fly my first jet which was the t-45 gauze hawk cool so which was the t-45 gauze hawk cool so which was the t-45 gauze hawk cool so what kind of plane is that is that is what kind of plane is that is that is what kind of plane is that is that is that that's what you were doing your that that's what you were doing your that that's what you were doing your training on training on training on that's the jet aircraft you get in that's the jet aircraft you get in that's the jet aircraft you get in before you actually go to the f-18 before you actually go to the f-18 before you actually go to the f-18 it is a carrier capable so go to the it is a carrier capable so go to the it is a carrier capable so go to the boat for the first time in it during the boat for the first time in it during the boat for the first time in it during the day day day drop uh fake bombs do dog fighting drop uh fake bombs do dog fighting drop uh fake bombs do dog fighting um um um low levels formation flying day and low levels formation flying day and low levels formation flying day and night night night well that's a pretty plain well that's a pretty plain well that's a pretty plain yeah yeah and it looks like a cone so yeah yeah and it looks like a cone so yeah yeah and it looks like a cone so that no one hits it that no one hits it that no one hits it okay so it's usually not used for okay so it's usually not used for okay so it's usually not used for fighting it's just for training it's

fighting it's just for training it's fighting it's just for training it's used for training how to fight got it so used for training how to fight got it so used for training how to fight got it so what was that like was that the first what was that like was that the first what was that like was that the first time you were sort of really getting time you were sort of really getting time you were sort of really getting into it yeah that was really interesting into it yeah that was really interesting into it yeah that was really interesting because before that it was a 600 because before that it was a 600 because before that it was a 600 horsepower prop plane and going from horsepower prop plane and going from horsepower prop plane and going from that to the t45 is one of like the that to the t45 is one of like the that to the t45 is one of like the biggest jumps in power and like biggest jumps in power and like biggest jumps in power and like navy you know machine operation how much navy you know machine operation how much navy you know machine operation how much horsepower does the 245 have horsepower does the 245 have horsepower does the 245 have approximately approximately approximately like 15 000 or so so it's a huge jump like 15 000 or so so it's a huge jump like 15 000 or so so it's a huge jump from 600 you said horsepower about yeah from 600 you said horsepower about yeah from 600 you said horsepower about yeah so it's a big big leap so it's a big big leap so it's a big big leap but it's a jet you know so it performs but it's a jet you know so it performs but it's a jet you know so it performs differently it's faster and right and differently it's faster and right and differently it's faster and right and what that means not just because it's what that means not just because it's what that means not just because it's faster your whole mind needs to be faster your whole mind needs to be faster your whole mind needs to be faster everything happens faster in the faster everything happens faster in the faster everything happens faster in the air now right those calms happen faster air now right those calms happen faster air now right those calms happen faster um your landing gear has to come up um your landing gear has to come up um your landing gear has to come up faster everything just happens faster in faster everything just happens faster in faster everything just happens faster in a jet and so it's a big jump uh and i a jet and so it's a big jump uh and i a jet and so it's a big jump uh and i never forget going on my first flight never forget going on my first flight never forget going on my first flight in that aircraft in that aircraft in that aircraft it was a formation flight for someone it was a formation flight for someone it was a formation flight for someone else and i was just in the back watching else and i was just in the back watching else and i was just in the back watching and there was an instructor in the and there was an instructor in the and there was an instructor in the flight and so what that means is flight and so what that means is flight and so what that means is instructors in a single aircraft and instructors in a single aircraft and instructors in a single aircraft and then there's three or four other then there's three or four other then there's three or four other aircraft and they're learning how to do aircraft and they're learning how to do aircraft and they're learning how to do joins and they're learning how to fly in joins and they're learning how to fly in joins and they're learning how to fly in formation and as a new student in the formation and as a new student in the formation and as a new student in the back it's amazing right because you know back it's amazing right because you know back it's amazing right because you know photo op time and all this like i'm photo op time and all this like i'm photo op time and all this like i'm seeing aircraft up close for the first seeing aircraft up close for the first seeing aircraft up close for the first time it's awesome time it's awesome time it's awesome um um um and on the way back um and on the way back um and on the way back um we couldn't get our landing gear down uh we couldn't get our landing gear down uh we couldn't get our landing gear down uh ironically ironically ironically so so so it you know to make a long story short it you know to make a long story short it you know to make a long story short because it's overall not that exciting because it's overall not that exciting because it's overall not that exciting uh we couldn't get the gear down we uh we couldn't get the gear down we uh we couldn't get the gear down we actually went to go do a controlled actually went to go do a controlled actually went to go do a controlled ejection uh to the target area that ejection uh to the target area that ejection uh to the target area that where that is about 15 20 miles to the

where that is about 15 20 miles to the where that is about 15 20 miles to the north of the base did you wait did you north of the base did you wait did you north of the base did you wait did you just say that's not that exciting just say that's not that exciting just say that's not that exciting well well well because that to me is pretty exciting so because that to me is pretty exciting so because that to me is pretty exciting so that i mean how first of all that i mean how first of all that i mean how first of all i mean uh i mean that must be terrifying i mean uh i mean that must be terrifying i mean uh i mean that must be terrifying like uh early on in your careers i like uh early on in your careers i like uh early on in your careers i haven't haven't seen those things haven't haven't seen those things haven't haven't seen those things um um um that yeah like how often does that kind that yeah like how often does that kind that yeah like how often does that kind of thing happen of thing happen of thing happen decent more than you would think more decent more than you would think more decent more than you would think more than you would think there was no than you would think there was no than you would think there was no significant panic this is like significant panic this is like significant panic this is like misunderstood this is what has to be misunderstood this is what has to be misunderstood this is what has to be done in this case i think i was probably done in this case i think i was probably done in this case i think i was probably just too dumb to realize the just too dumb to realize the just too dumb to realize the significance of it because as a new significance of it because as a new significance of it because as a new student you know not really appreciating student you know not really appreciating student you know not really appreciating you know just what is ahead of me if we you know just what is ahead of me if we you know just what is ahead of me if we are rejecting um are rejecting um are rejecting um but at the time it was more it was just but at the time it was more it was just but at the time it was more it was just like wrote right because i was back like wrote right because i was back like wrote right because i was back there and then i went from a observer there and then i went from a observer there and then i went from a observer mode to a mode to a mode to a i'm going to provide you the help that i i'm going to provide you the help that i i'm going to provide you the help that i can provide you as a member of this crew can provide you as a member of this crew can provide you as a member of this crew you know mode and so it was less about you know mode and so it was less about you know mode and so it was less about i'm you know on this 20-mile trip and i'm you know on this 20-mile trip and i'm you know on this 20-mile trip and thinking about my um how vulnerable i am thinking about my um how vulnerable i am thinking about my um how vulnerable i am you know we're going through checklists you know we're going through checklists you know we're going through checklists we're talking to people we're getting we're talking to people we're getting we're talking to people we're getting ready so ready so ready so no it wasn't it wasn't fearful and the no it wasn't it wasn't fearful and the no it wasn't it wasn't fearful and the whole time we were doing one of these to whole time we were doing one of these to whole time we were doing one of these to try to get the uh the gear down so we're try to get the uh the gear down so we're try to get the uh the gear down so we're unloading the jet and then loading it unloading the jet and then loading it unloading the jet and then loading it back to try to get the gear out back to try to get the gear out back to try to get the gear out with the stick and um with the stick and um with the stick and um and it came down it came down halfway um and it came down it came down halfway um and it came down it came down halfway um there just on its own so we came back there just on its own so we came back there just on its own so we came back around and we did like a safety trap in around and we did like a safety trap in around and we did like a safety trap in case there was a problem with the gear case there was a problem with the gear case there was a problem with the gear and that was my first flight you know uh and that was my first flight you know uh and that was my first flight you know uh a little bit of serendipity but i'm a little bit of serendipity but i'm a little bit of serendipity but i'm gonna fast forward a bit and i went back gonna fast forward a bit and i went back gonna fast forward a bit and i went back to the squadron's instructor about five

to the squadron's instructor about five to the squadron's instructor about five or six years later and i was an aviation or six years later and i was an aviation or six years later and i was an aviation safety officer at this point which meant safety officer at this point which meant safety officer at this point which meant i was responsible for investigating i was responsible for investigating i was responsible for investigating mishaps mishaps mishaps and and and a a student went in and he he went in a a student went in and he he went in a a student went in and he he went in the back seat of a form flight the back seat of a form flight the back seat of a form flight just like the one i went on just like the one i went on just like the one i went on and he went out and he ended up and he went out and he ended up and he went out and he ended up projecting on that flight exact same projecting on that flight exact same projecting on that flight exact same type of flight they went out and they type of flight they went out and they type of flight they went out and they had a runaway trim scenario and it had a runaway trim scenario and it had a runaway trim scenario and it caused the aircraft essentially just caused the aircraft essentially just caused the aircraft essentially just inverted itself almost 180 degrees inverted itself almost 180 degrees inverted itself almost 180 degrees uh at about 600 feet over the ground and uh at about 600 feet over the ground and uh at about 600 feet over the ground and they punched out just slightly outside they punched out just slightly outside they punched out just slightly outside the ejection window at about 300 400 the ejection window at about 300 400 the ejection window at about 300 400 feet or so but they were completely fine feet or so but they were completely fine feet or so but they were completely fine um um um so you know and then about so you know and then about so you know and then about two months later we had another ejection two months later we had another ejection two months later we had another ejection about three months after that we had about three months after that we had about three months after that we had another rejection so another rejection so another rejection so um unfortunately you know it can it can um unfortunately you know it can it can um unfortunately you know it can it can be more common that people think what be more common that people think what be more common that people think what does it feel like to get ejected does it feel like to get ejected does it feel like to get ejected thankfully i don't know i could describe thankfully i don't know i could describe thankfully i don't know i could describe it to you i can tell you what it's like it to you i can tell you what it's like it to you i can tell you what it's like from what i've heard but i truly think from what i've heard but i truly think from what i've heard but i truly think it's one of those things that you just it's one of those things that you just it's one of those things that you just don't understand until it happens don't understand until it happens don't understand until it happens uh it's like instantaneous about 250 g's uh it's like instantaneous about 250 g's uh it's like instantaneous about 250 g's which is only possible because of which is only possible because of which is only possible because of inertia in our blood inertia in our blood inertia in our blood right so you can actually get like 250 right so you can actually get like 250 right so you can actually get like 250 300 g's for like a few milliseconds and 300 g's for like a few milliseconds and 300 g's for like a few milliseconds and then it backs off to like 40 or 50 g's then it backs off to like 40 or 50 g's then it backs off to like 40 or 50 g's to get you away from the vehicle itself to get you away from the vehicle itself to get you away from the vehicle itself and so and so and so um you know you may lose consciousness um you know you may lose consciousness um you know you may lose consciousness um if you um if you um if you do you know who knows where you wake up do you know who knows where you wake up do you know who knows where you wake up um you know you could be in a tree you um you know you could be in a tree you um you know you could be in a tree you could still be falling uh you could be could still be falling uh you could be could still be falling uh you could be in the water so the physics of that is in the water so the physics of that is in the water so the physics of that is fascinating how do you eject safely

fascinating how do you eject safely fascinating how do you eject safely do you know the story about how that was do you know the story about how that was do you know the story about how that was tested at all i don't know the full tested at all i don't know the full tested at all i don't know the full story but uh there was i'm guessing story but uh there was i'm guessing story but uh there was i'm guessing nobody knows the full story there's nobody knows the full story there's nobody knows the full story there's probably a lot of shady stuff going on probably a lot of shady stuff going on probably a lot of shady stuff going on but anyway uh you mean like in the early but anyway uh you mean like in the early but anyway uh you mean like in the early early days or they suck a flight dock up early days or they suck a flight dock up early days or they suck a flight dock up to a rocket sled and just see how much to a rocket sled and just see how much to a rocket sled and just see how much their body could take it their body could take it their body could take it and he turned a lot of his body into in and he turned a lot of his body into in and he turned a lot of his body into in the mush in the in the process of the mush in the in the process of the mush in the in the process of getting that science done but he saved a getting that science done but he saved a getting that science done but he saved a lot of life lot of life lot of life people use it used to be tougher back in people use it used to be tougher back in people use it used to be tougher back in the day that's how science used to be done that's how science used to be done um so how did your training continue so um so how did your training continue so um so how did your training continue so how did take me and take me farther how did take me and take me farther how did take me and take me farther through your career through your career through your career uh as you work towards graduating uh as you work towards graduating uh as you work towards graduating towards the f-18s so in vt9 where i was towards the f-18s so in vt9 where i was towards the f-18s so in vt9 where i was a student a student a student there's two phases there's an there's two phases there's an there's two phases there's an intermediate and advanced intermediate and advanced intermediate and advanced intermediate is getting very comfortable intermediate is getting very comfortable intermediate is getting very comfortable with the aircraft and at that point you with the aircraft and at that point you with the aircraft and at that point you truly hear all right you're going jets truly hear all right you're going jets truly hear all right you're going jets now or you're gonna go one of the other now or you're gonna go one of the other now or you're gonna go one of the other aircraft that land on the aircraft aircraft that land on the aircraft aircraft that land on the aircraft carrier carrier carrier i was told i was going to you know jets i was told i was going to you know jets i was told i was going to you know jets at that point and then we go into at that point and then we go into at that point and then we go into same squadron same aircraft same same squadron same aircraft same same squadron same aircraft same instructors but it's called advanced now instructors but it's called advanced now instructors but it's called advanced now and now we're and now we're and now we're learning how to dog fight for the first learning how to dog fight for the first learning how to dog fight for the first time we're time we're time we're doing what we call tactical formation doing what we call tactical formation doing what we call tactical formation which is uh just like aggressive which is uh just like aggressive which is uh just like aggressive position keeping position keeping position keeping um we are doing um um we are doing um um we are doing um dog fighting and low levels and all dog fighting and low levels and all dog fighting and low levels and all sorts of great stuff so it's really that sorts of great stuff so it's really that sorts of great stuff so it's really that first introduction to that tactical first introduction to that tactical first introduction to that tactical environment and putting really putting environment and putting really putting environment and putting really putting g's on the jet on your body and g's on the jet on your body and g's on the jet on your body and maneuvering is there like tactical maneuvering is there like tactical maneuvering is there like tactical formation is collaborating with other

formation is collaborating with other formation is collaborating with other fighter jets a part of that it is so fighter jets a part of that it is so fighter jets a part of that it is so flying in a that's what you mean by flying in a that's what you mean by flying in a that's what you mean by formation so literally having an formation so literally having an formation so literally having an awareness all right is this done for you awareness all right is this done for you awareness all right is this done for you or are you as a human supposed to or are you as a human supposed to or are you as a human supposed to understand understand understand like where you are in the formation how like where you are in the formation how like where you are in the formation how to maintain formation all that kind of to maintain formation all that kind of to maintain formation all that kind of stuff yeah is it done autonomously or stuff yeah is it done autonomously or stuff yeah is it done autonomously or manually there's a great autonomy point manually there's a great autonomy point manually there's a great autonomy point on the end of this i've thought about so on the end of this i've thought about so on the end of this i've thought about so but what we do it's all manual so i'm but what we do it's all manual so i'm but what we do it's all manual so i'm looking at his wing looking at his wing looking at his wing and i'm looking at um different visual and i'm looking at um different visual and i'm looking at um different visual checkpoints that form like a triangle checkpoints that form like a triangle checkpoints that form like a triangle right like an equal out triangle right like an equal out triangle right like an equal out triangle essentially and then as that triangle essentially and then as that triangle essentially and then as that triangle you know is no longer equal i can tell you know is no longer equal i can tell you know is no longer equal i can tell my relative position against that my relative position against that my relative position against that aircraft right that's really cool uh and aircraft right that's really cool uh and aircraft right that's really cool uh and so that's what i'm staring at first so that's what i'm staring at first so that's what i'm staring at first sometimes hours on end you know several sometimes hours on end you know several sometimes hours on end you know several feet away doing with these if i'm in the feet away doing with these if i'm in the feet away doing with these if i'm in the weather that's all it is weather that's all it is weather that's all it is so you get it's almost like is it so you get it's almost like is it so you get it's almost like is it peripheral vision or is it no we're peripheral vision or is it no we're peripheral vision or is it no we're staring directly at it the peripheral is staring directly at it the peripheral is staring directly at it the peripheral is coming on my on my um that's interesting coming on my on my um that's interesting coming on my on my um that's interesting stuff right my sensors and my stuff right my sensors and my stuff right my sensors and my instruments and so here's my gyroscope instruments and so here's my gyroscope instruments and so here's my gyroscope at that point right while you're flying at that point right while you're flying at that point right while you're flying not looking straight correct i'm fly not looking straight correct i'm fly not looking straight correct i'm fly like this for hours it can hurt your like this for hours it can hurt your like this for hours it can hurt your neck we don't like doing this as much neck we don't like doing this as much neck we don't like doing this as much and i don't think it's just me right and i don't think it's just me right and i don't think it's just me right it's a weird thing where when you're it's a weird thing where when you're it's a weird thing where when you're like this it's actually harder to fly like this it's actually harder to fly like this it's actually harder to fly formation slightly than here because formation slightly than here because formation slightly than here because being in line of your hand movements and being in line of your hand movements and being in line of your hand movements and of the aircraft of the aircraft of the aircraft somehow has an effect on our ability to somehow has an effect on our ability to somehow has an effect on our ability to be more precise and comfortable it's be more precise and comfortable it's be more precise and comfortable it's strange strange strange uh yeah so but so the there's a symmetry uh yeah so but so the there's a symmetry uh yeah so but so the there's a symmetry to the formation usually so one of the to the formation usually so one of the to the formation usually so one of the people on the other side really don't

people on the other side really don't people on the other side really don't like being on that side like being on that side like being on that side is it is it does it who gets like the is it is it does it who gets like the is it is it does it who gets like the short straw how do you decide which side short straw how do you decide which side short straw how do you decide which side of the formation you are it's a good of the formation you are it's a good of the formation you are it's a good question too because there's there's question too because there's there's question too because there's there's kind of rank in some sense so if it's a kind of rank in some sense so if it's a kind of rank in some sense so if it's a four-person formation right you have the four-person formation right you have the four-person formation right you have the division lead who's qualified to lead a division lead who's qualified to lead a division lead who's qualified to lead a whole division but maybe the other ones whole division but maybe the other ones whole division but maybe the other ones aren't and he has a dash too aren't and he has a dash too aren't and he has a dash too and that's his wingman essentially and and that's his wingman essentially and and that's his wingman essentially and then in a division there's two other then in a division there's two other then in a division there's two other aircraft and then you have another aircraft and then you have another aircraft and then you have another senior flight leader that's the dash senior flight leader that's the dash senior flight leader that's the dash three position three position three position and then you have dash four the last one and then you have dash four the last one and then you have dash four the last one and if you are all lined up on one side and if you are all lined up on one side and if you are all lined up on one side like fingertip one two three four that like fingertip one two three four that like fingertip one two three four that dash four guy is going to be at the end dash four guy is going to be at the end dash four guy is going to be at the end of that whip so if you're flying of that whip so if you're flying of that whip so if you're flying formation each one's making you know formation each one's making you know formation each one's making you know movements relative to the lead dash four movements relative to the lead dash four movements relative to the lead dash four is kind of you know at the end of that is kind of you know at the end of that is kind of you know at the end of that error you know and so his movements are error you know and so his movements are error you know and so his movements are kind of like a whip it's very difficult kind of like a whip it's very difficult kind of like a whip it's very difficult to fly in that position and close can to fly in that position and close can to fly in that position and close can you elaborate is it because of the air you elaborate is it because of the air you elaborate is it because of the air the aerodynamics what's the whip if this the aerodynamics what's the whip if this the aerodynamics what's the whip if this is the flight lead and this is dash two is the flight lead and this is dash two is the flight lead and this is dash two you know flightly is rock steady and you know flightly is rock steady and you know flightly is rock steady and just doing his thing yeah flight two is just doing his thing yeah flight two is just doing his thing yeah flight two is going to be working that triangle moving going to be working that triangle moving going to be working that triangle moving a little bit right and he has this small a little bit right and he has this small a little bit right and he has this small air bubble that he's doing his best to air bubble that he's doing his best to air bubble that he's doing his best to stay and then but dash three is flying stay and then but dash three is flying stay and then but dash three is flying off dash too and so his air bubble is off dash too and so his air bubble is off dash too and so his air bubble is dash two's plus his own dash two's plus his own dash two's plus his own and that's and that's and that's more and more stressful as you get more and more stressful as you get more and more stressful as you get further yeah further yeah further yeah okay um what's the experience of that okay um what's the experience of that okay um what's the experience of that staring for long periods of time staring for long periods of time staring for long periods of time and trying to maintain formation and trying to maintain formation and trying to maintain formation how stressful is that because like how stressful is that because like how stressful is that because like you know we're doing that when we drive you know we're doing that when we drive you know we're doing that when we drive staying in lane staying in lane staying in lane and that becomes and that becomes and that becomes after you get pretty good at it it

after you get pretty good at it it after you get pretty good at it it becomes somewhat it's still stressful becomes somewhat it's still stressful becomes somewhat it's still stressful um um um which actually surprisingly stressful which actually surprisingly stressful which actually surprisingly stressful when you look at like lane keeping when you look at like lane keeping when you look at like lane keeping systems they actually relieve that systems they actually relieve that systems they actually relieve that stress somehow and it actually creates a stress somehow and it actually creates a stress somehow and it actually creates a much more much more much more pleasant experience while you're still pleasant experience while you're still pleasant experience while you're still able to maintain situational awareness able to maintain situational awareness able to maintain situational awareness and like and like and like stay awake which is really interesting stay awake which is really interesting stay awake which is really interesting like i don't think people realize how like i don't think people realize how like i don't think people realize how stressful it is to lane keep stressful it is to lane keep stressful it is to lane keep when they drive so this is even more when they drive so this is even more when they drive so this is even more stressful so are you stressful so are you stressful so are you do you do you think about that or is do you do you think about that or is do you do you think about that or is this um yeah i guess how stressful is it this um yeah i guess how stressful is it this um yeah i guess how stressful is it from a psychology perspective it's very from a psychology perspective it's very from a psychology perspective it's very stressful uh when stressful uh when stressful uh when so i taught students how to do this as so i taught students how to do this as so i taught students how to do this as well and so at our feet we have two well and so at our feet we have two well and so at our feet we have two writers and if i'm flying off a flight writers and if i'm flying off a flight writers and if i'm flying off a flight lead over here what you'll find a lot of lead over here what you'll find a lot of lead over here what you'll find a lot of times is you'll be flying or you like if times is you'll be flying or you like if times is you'll be flying or you like if i'm the structure and the students i'm the structure and the students i'm the structure and the students flying i'll start to notice that he's flying i'll start to notice that he's flying i'll start to notice that he's having a harder and harder time keeping having a harder and harder time keeping having a harder and harder time keeping position yeah and what i'll notice position yeah and what i'll notice position yeah and what i'll notice typically is he's locked out his leg typically is he's locked out his leg typically is he's locked out his leg they'll lock out the leg that's closest they'll lock out the leg that's closest they'll lock out the leg that's closest to the aircraft they're flying against to the aircraft they're flying against to the aircraft they're flying against and push on the rudder subconsciously and push on the rudder subconsciously and push on the rudder subconsciously because their whole body's trying to get because their whole body's trying to get because their whole body's trying to get away from the aircraft because they're away from the aircraft because they're away from the aircraft because they're so uncomfortable getting close to it so uncomfortable getting close to it so uncomfortable getting close to it and so i'll tell them i can i can fix and so i'll tell them i can i can fix and so i'll tell them i can i can fix their form with just a couple words their form with just a couple words their form with just a couple words they'll say wiggle your toes they'll say wiggle your toes they'll say wiggle your toes and they'll wiggle their toes and and they'll wiggle their toes and and they'll wiggle their toes and they'll reel out and they'll loosen all they'll reel out and they'll loosen all they'll reel out and they'll loosen all the muscles in their legs the muscles in their legs the muscles in their legs they've been locked up and their they've been locked up and their they've been locked up and their formation flying will get a lot better formation flying will get a lot better formation flying will get a lot better uh and so you know there's a lot of uh and so you know there's a lot of uh and so you know there's a lot of stress associated with that there's some stress associated with that there's some stress associated with that there's some interesting interesting interesting psychological or psychological or psychological or visual visual visual issues such as um issues such as um issues such as um vertigo as you're flying so if you're

vertigo as you're flying so if you're vertigo as you're flying so if you're flying with him and then you fly right flying with him and then you fly right flying with him and then you fly right into a cloud right that's when it's very into a cloud right that's when it's very into a cloud right that's when it's very stressful because you have to be very stressful because you have to be very stressful because you have to be very close in order to maintain visual you close in order to maintain visual you close in order to maintain visual you might be on thunderstorm right might be on thunderstorm right might be on thunderstorm right and so you have to be very tight you and so you have to be very tight you and so you have to be very tight you might start raining might start raining might start raining and then he's turning but you might not and then he's turning but you might not and then he's turning but you might not even know that even know that even know that you might not even be able to see that you might not even be able to see that you might not even be able to see that turn and so all of a sudden you might turn and so all of a sudden you might turn and so all of a sudden you might look while you're in a turn thinking you look while you're in a turn thinking you look while you're in a turn thinking you were straight level and you look were straight level and you look were straight level and you look just maybe back at your instruments very just maybe back at your instruments very just maybe back at your instruments very quick and you realize you're like in a quick and you realize you're like in a quick and you realize you're like in a 30 degree turn 30 degree turn 30 degree turn and your whole concept of where you are and your whole concept of where you are and your whole concept of where you are in the world in the world in the world starts getting very confused and you starts getting very confused and you starts getting very confused and you immediately get this this sense of immediately get this this sense of immediately get this this sense of it it's weird like i look at the hud and it it's weird like i look at the hud and it it's weird like i look at the hud and it it feels all my sensor telling me it it feels all my sensor telling me it it feels all my sensor telling me it's spinning but it's not you know and it's spinning but it's not you know and it's spinning but it's not you know and so i have to trust my instruments even so i have to trust my instruments even so i have to trust my instruments even though it feels like it's spinning and though it feels like it's spinning and though it feels like it's spinning and the same thing can happen the same thing can happen the same thing can happen when you're flying formation off of when you're flying formation off of when you're flying formation off of someone and it it can be very um someone and it it can be very um someone and it it can be very um very dangerous and um disorientating but very dangerous and um disorientating but very dangerous and um disorientating but the point is to the point is to the point is to try to regain try to regain try to regain awareness by trusting the instruments awareness by trusting the instruments awareness by trusting the instruments like like like like distrust all your human senses and like distrust all your human senses and like distrust all your human senses and just use the instruments to rebuild just use the instruments to rebuild just use the instruments to rebuild situational awareness not in this situational awareness not in this situational awareness not in this particular case because our situational particular case because our situational particular case because our situational awareness is based it's predicated off awareness is based it's predicated off awareness is based it's predicated off of our flight lead so in a sense i'm of our flight lead so in a sense i'm of our flight lead so in a sense i'm just trusting his movements and so he's just trusting his movements and so he's just trusting his movements and so he's my gyroscope but you're absolutely right my gyroscope but you're absolutely right my gyroscope but you're absolutely right if i was by myself i would trust my if i was by myself i would trust my if i was by myself i would trust my instruments but i can't just stop flying instruments but i can't just stop flying instruments but i can't just stop flying form and trust my instruments because form and trust my instruments because form and trust my instruments because now i'm going to hit him oh yeah you now i'm going to hit him oh yeah you now i'm going to hit him oh yeah you have to pay attention so he's my have to pay attention so he's my have to pay attention so he's my reference so the instruments are not reference so the instruments are not reference so the instruments are not helping you significantly with his helping you significantly with his helping you significantly with his positioning not it's all completely positioning not it's all completely positioning not it's all completely manual manual manual so i is there a future where some of so i is there a future where some of so i is there a future where some of that is autonomous yeah and i've thought

that is autonomous yeah and i've thought that is autonomous yeah and i've thought about automating that flight um regime about automating that flight um regime about automating that flight um regime but when i started thinking about it but when i started thinking about it but when i started thinking about it i you know realized that all the i you know realized that all the i you know realized that all the formation keeping that we do formation keeping that we do formation keeping that we do uh is designed to enhance the uh is designed to enhance the uh is designed to enhance the aviator's aviator's aviator's ability to maintain sight right so we ability to maintain sight right so we ability to maintain sight right so we fly very tight formation so that we can fly very tight formation so that we can fly very tight formation so that we can go in weather and to reduce go in weather and to reduce go in weather and to reduce groups of traffic coming into the boat groups of traffic coming into the boat groups of traffic coming into the boat we fly we fly we fly in one particular position so that all in one particular position so that all in one particular position so that all of all of the flight crew can look down of all of the flight crew can look down of all of the flight crew can look down the line and see the flight lead so the line and see the flight lead so the line and see the flight lead so everything is based everything is based everything is based everything has to do with everything has to do with everything has to do with the two air crew visually maintaining the two air crew visually maintaining the two air crew visually maintaining sight of each other and defending each sight of each other and defending each sight of each other and defending each other right other right other right in a combat spread i might be looking i in a combat spread i might be looking i in a combat spread i might be looking i may be three miles away from him flying may be three miles away from him flying may be three miles away from him flying formation directly beam and looking formation directly beam and looking formation directly beam and looking around to make sure nothing's there so around to make sure nothing's there so around to make sure nothing's there so as i'm looking into automating this as i'm looking into automating this as i'm looking into automating this process i thought process i thought process i thought well you know well you know well you know sure it's easy to get a bunch of sure it's easy to get a bunch of sure it's easy to get a bunch of aircraft to fly in formation off each aircraft to fly in formation off each aircraft to fly in formation off each other right it's it's trivial but why other right it's it's trivial but why other right it's it's trivial but why you know what is the best formation why you know what is the best formation why you know what is the best formation why are they doing that and that opened up a are they doing that and that opened up a are they doing that and that opened up a much more interesting regime of much more interesting regime of much more interesting regime of operations and flight mechanics and operations and flight mechanics and operations and flight mechanics and that's when we get back to that kind of that's when we get back to that kind of that's when we get back to that kind of stochastic mindset where we can bring in stochastic mindset where we can bring in stochastic mindset where we can bring in aircraft close to do some type of normal aircraft close to do some type of normal aircraft close to do some type of normal flying or reduce congestion around flying or reduce congestion around flying or reduce congestion around airports but when we consider flying in airports but when we consider flying in airports but when we consider flying in a formation and tactical environment we a formation and tactical environment we a formation and tactical environment we can be much more effective with can be much more effective with can be much more effective with non-traditional formation keeping or non-traditional formation keeping or non-traditional formation keeping or perhaps no formation keeping perhaps so perhaps no formation keeping perhaps so perhaps no formation keeping perhaps so autonomy used for formation keeping not autonomy used for formation keeping not autonomy used for formation keeping not for convenience but for the introduction for convenience but for the introduction for convenience but for the introduction of randomness that's hard too real-time

of randomness that's hard too real-time of randomness that's hard too real-time mission planner yeah mission planner yeah mission planner yeah and then that's where you also have some and then that's where you also have some and then that's where you also have some human human human modifications so it's like modifications so it's like modifications so it's like man unmanned teaming enters that picture man unmanned teaming enters that picture man unmanned teaming enters that picture so you use some of the human intuition and adjustment human intuition and adjustment of this formation the formation itself of this formation the formation itself of this formation the formation itself has some uncertainty it's such an has some uncertainty it's such an has some uncertainty it's such an interesting dance i think that is interesting dance i think that is interesting dance i think that is the most the most the most fascinating fascinating fascinating application of artificial intelligence application of artificial intelligence application of artificial intelligence is when it's human ai collaboration that is when it's human ai collaboration that is when it's human ai collaboration that that semi-autonomous dance that you see that semi-autonomous dance that you see that semi-autonomous dance that you see in these semi-autonomous vehicle systems in these semi-autonomous vehicle systems in these semi-autonomous vehicle systems in terms of cars being driving but also in terms of cars being driving but also in terms of cars being driving but also in the in the in the safety critical situation of a airplane safety critical situation of a airplane safety critical situation of a airplane of a fighter jet especially when you're of a fighter jet especially when you're of a fighter jet especially when you're flying fast it's flying fast it's flying fast it's i mean i mean i mean in a split second you have to make all in a split second you have to make all in a split second you have to make all these kinds of decisions and these kinds of decisions and these kinds of decisions and it feels like an ai system can do it feels like an ai system can do it feels like an ai system can do as much harm as it can help and so to as much harm as it can help and so to as much harm as it can help and so to get that right get that right get that right is a really fascinating challenge one of is a really fascinating challenge one of is a really fascinating challenge one of the challenges too isn't just the the the challenges too isn't just the the the challenges too isn't just the the algorithms of the autonomy itself but algorithms of the autonomy itself but algorithms of the autonomy itself but how it senses the environment how it senses the environment how it senses the environment that of course is going to what be what that of course is going to what be what that of course is going to what be what all these decisions are based off of and all these decisions are based off of and all these decisions are based off of and that's a challenge in this type of that's a challenge in this type of that's a challenge in this type of environment well i gotta ask so uh f18 environment well i gotta ask so uh f18 environment well i gotta ask so uh f18 what's it like to fly a fighter jet as what's it like to fly a fighter jet as what's it like to fly a fighter jet as best i mean what to you is best i mean what to you is best i mean what to you is beautiful powerful beautiful powerful beautiful powerful what do you love about the experience of what do you love about the experience of what do you love about the experience of flying flying flying for me you know and i think i'm an for me you know and i think i'm an for me you know and i think i'm an outlier a bit it wasn't necessarily the outlier a bit it wasn't necessarily the outlier a bit it wasn't necessarily the flying itself right it wasn't

flying itself right it wasn't flying itself right it wasn't necessarily the the soaring over the necessarily the the soaring over the necessarily the the soaring over the clouds clouds clouds and you know looking down at the earth and you know looking down at the earth and you know looking down at the earth from upside down you know i i came to from upside down you know i i came to from upside down you know i i came to love that and but it wasn't necessarily love that and but it wasn't necessarily love that and but it wasn't necessarily the passion that drove me there i just the passion that drove me there i just the passion that drove me there i just had no exposure to that the only exp the had no exposure to that the only exp the had no exposure to that the only exp the exposure i had was exposure i had was exposure i had was was reading and going in the woods and was reading and going in the woods and was reading and going in the woods and and science fiction and and all that and and science fiction and and all that and and science fiction and and all that and so you know what seemed to kind of drive so you know what seemed to kind of drive so you know what seemed to kind of drive me towards that was just me towards that was just me towards that was just a desire to really be operating as close a desire to really be operating as close a desire to really be operating as close to what i thought was the edge of to what i thought was the edge of to what i thought was the edge of technology or science and that's the technology or science and that's the technology or science and that's the path that i chose to try to get close to path that i chose to try to get close to path that i chose to try to get close to that i thought that being in a in a that i thought that being in a in a that i thought that being in a in a fighter jet fighter jet fighter jet uh and you know all the tools and the uh and you know all the tools and the uh and you know all the tools and the technology and the technology and the technology and the knowledge and the challenges and the you knowledge and the challenges and the you knowledge and the challenges and the you know failures and victories that would know failures and victories that would know failures and victories that would come with that just seemed like come with that just seemed like come with that just seemed like something that something that something that i wanted to be a part of uh and it i wanted to be a part of uh and it i wanted to be a part of uh and it wasn't necessarily about the flying but wasn't necessarily about the flying but wasn't necessarily about the flying but it was about the challenge and it was about the challenge and it was about the challenge and like i said as a person from a small like i said as a person from a small like i said as a person from a small town you know small high school town you know small high school town you know small high school being able to get my hands you know or being able to get my hands you know or being able to get my hands you know or even just near something of such even just near something of such even just near something of such technological significance was kind of technological significance was kind of technological significance was kind of empowering for me and that's kind of empowering for me and that's kind of empowering for me and that's kind of what bore the love of flight from there what bore the love of flight from there what bore the love of flight from there you know becoming you know having some you know becoming you know having some you know becoming you know having some level of mastery in that aircraft it level of mastery in that aircraft it level of mastery in that aircraft it really feels like an extension of your really feels like an extension of your really feels like an extension of your body and once i got there then then the body and once i got there then then the body and once i got there then then the kind of the level flying kind of kind of the level flying kind of kind of the level flying kind of followed followed followed so you sort of one is the man mastery so you sort of one is the man mastery so you sort of one is the man mastery over the machine and second is the over the machine and second is the over the machine and second is the machine is like the greatest thing that machine is like the greatest thing that machine is like the greatest thing that humans have ever created arguably the humans have ever created arguably the humans have ever created arguably the the like things that lockheed martin and

the like things that lockheed martin and the like things that lockheed martin and others have built others have built others have built i mean the engineering in that yeah it's i mean the engineering in that yeah it's i mean the engineering in that yeah it's um um um however you feel about war however you feel about war however you feel about war which is one of the sad things about which is one of the sad things about which is one of the sad things about human civilization is human civilization is human civilization is um um um war inspires the engineering of tools war inspires the engineering of tools war inspires the engineering of tools that are that are that are incredible incredible incredible and it's like and it's like and it's like maybe without war if we look at human maybe without war if we look at human maybe without war if we look at human history we would not build some of the history we would not build some of the history we would not build some of the incredible things we built so in order incredible things we built so in order incredible things we built so in order to to to win wars to stop wars we build these win wars to stop wars we build these win wars to stop wars we build these incredible systems incredible systems incredible systems that perhaps propagate war that perhaps propagate war that perhaps propagate war and that's a that's another discussion and that's a that's another discussion and that's a that's another discussion i'll ask you about but this i'll ask you about but this i'll ask you about but this do you this is like um do you this is like um do you this is like um this is a chance to experience the this is a chance to experience the this is a chance to experience the greatest engineering humans have ever greatest engineering humans have ever greatest engineering humans have ever been able to do been able to do been able to do like similar i suppose that astronauts like similar i suppose that astronauts like similar i suppose that astronauts feel like when they're flying i wanted feel like when they're flying i wanted feel like when they're flying i wanted to be an astronaut i wanted to take that to be an astronaut i wanted to take that to be an astronaut i wanted to take that route route route uh i was gonna apply to test pilot uh i was gonna apply to test pilot uh i was gonna apply to test pilot school school school um um um it just didn't work out for me uh i it just didn't work out for me uh i it just didn't work out for me uh i ended up having a broken foot during my ended up having a broken foot during my ended up having a broken foot during my window but long story short i ended up window but long story short i ended up window but long story short i ended up after uh my time in my fleet squadron after uh my time in my fleet squadron after uh my time in my fleet squadron and we can get back to the rest of the and we can get back to the rest of the and we can get back to the rest of the timeline if you want but timeline if you want but timeline if you want but i went to be an instructor i went to be an instructor i went to be an instructor pilot pilot pilot um instead right and then you know i i um instead right and then you know i i um instead right and then you know i i was talking about this with a squadron was talking about this with a squadron was talking about this with a squadron mate earlier today about how you know i mate earlier today about how you know i mate earlier today about how you know i certainly wouldn't be talking with lex certainly wouldn't be talking with lex certainly wouldn't be talking with lex today if i ended up going to test pilot today if i ended up going to test pilot today if i ended up going to test pilot school you know school you know school you know i never would have i never would have i never would have i never would have i never would have i never would have had the i wouldn't

i wouldn't maybe recklessness i don't know but the maybe recklessness i don't know but the maybe recklessness i don't know but the the willingness to have a conversation the willingness to have a conversation the willingness to have a conversation about uap about uap about uap while i was you know i that led me to while i was you know i that led me to while i was you know i that led me to the decision to get out once i went the decision to get out once i went the decision to get out once i went there and there and there and it it kind of enabled me to talk about it it kind of enabled me to talk about it it kind of enabled me to talk about uap more publicly uap more publicly uap more publicly and if i stayed in the navy then i don't and if i stayed in the navy then i don't and if i stayed in the navy then i don't think that would have happened i think that would have happened i think that would have happened i wouldn't have been able to wouldn't have been able to wouldn't have been able to if i went that route if i went that route if i went that route well as a small tangent well as a small tangent well as a small tangent do you hope to travel to mars one day do do you hope to travel to mars one day do do you hope to travel to mars one day do you think you'll step foot on mars one you think you'll step foot on mars one you think you'll step foot on mars one day day day if you ask me that five years ago i if you ask me that five years ago i if you ask me that five years ago i would have said would have said would have said yes i want to in fact i would like to yes i want to in fact i would like to yes i want to in fact i would like to die on myers die on myers die on myers um um um now today now i have some hesitations now today now i have some hesitations now today now i have some hesitations and i have some hesitations because and i have some hesitations because and i have some hesitations because i'm hopeful and optimistic and i think i'm hopeful and optimistic and i think i'm hopeful and optimistic and i think that you know i think that we are truly that you know i think that we are truly that you know i think that we are truly like on the brink of a very wide like on the brink of a very wide like on the brink of a very wide technological revolution that's going to technological revolution that's going to technological revolution that's going to kind of move us how we used to move kind of move us how we used to move kind of move us how we used to move information and data information and data information and data in in this last century we're going to in in this last century we're going to in in this last century we're going to be manipulating and managing matter in be manipulating and managing matter in be manipulating and managing matter in that next century and so i think that i that next century and so i think that i that next century and so i think that i think our reach as human as humans are think our reach as human as humans are think our reach as human as humans are going to get a lot wider a lot faster going to get a lot wider a lot faster going to get a lot wider a lot faster than people may realize or at least than people may realize or at least than people may realize or at least wait are you getting like super wait are you getting like super wait are you getting like super ambitious beyond mars is that what ambitious beyond mars is that what ambitious beyond mars is that what you're saying well i mean you're saying well i mean you're saying well i mean like mars seems kind of boring i want to like mars seems kind of boring i want to like mars seems kind of boring i want to go beyond that is that we go beyond that is that we go beyond that is that we do do you mean the reach of humanity do do you mean the reach of humanity do do you mean the reach of humanity across all kinds of technologies or do across all kinds of technologies or do across all kinds of technologies or do you mean literally across space across you mean literally across space across you mean literally across space across space you know so you know we're going space you know so you know we're going space you know so you know we're going to be i think that as artificial to be i think that as artificial to be i think that as artificial intelligence and machine learning starts intelligence and machine learning starts intelligence and machine learning starts broaching further into the topic of

broaching further into the topic of broaching further into the topic of science or the area of science and we science or the area of science and we science or the area of science and we start working through new physics we start working through new physics we start working through new physics we start working through or i should say start working through or i should say start working through or i should say pass the einsteinian frameworks pass the einsteinian frameworks pass the einsteinian frameworks as we kind of get a better idea of what as we kind of get a better idea of what as we kind of get a better idea of what space time is or isn't space time is or isn't space time is or isn't we may have we may find you know answers we may have we may find you know answers we may have we may find you know answers that we didn't know that we were looking that we didn't know that we were looking that we didn't know that we were looking for and we may have more opportunity and for and we may have more opportunity and for and we may have more opportunity and i'm not saying this is something i'm you i'm not saying this is something i'm you i'm not saying this is something i'm you know betting the farm on of course but know betting the farm on of course but know betting the farm on of course but um maybe maybe that's a road i want to um maybe maybe that's a road i want to um maybe maybe that's a road i want to explore on earth instead of uh on mars explore on earth instead of uh on mars explore on earth instead of uh on mars maybe there's technology that can be maybe there's technology that can be maybe there's technology that can be brought to bear with new science and brought to bear with new science and brought to bear with new science and harder engineering that is a road that harder engineering that is a road that harder engineering that is a road that doesn't go past mars to get outside the doesn't go past mars to get outside the doesn't go past mars to get outside the solar system solar system solar system so there are different ways to explore so there are different ways to explore so there are different ways to explore the universe the universe the universe than the the traditional rocket systems than the the traditional rocket systems than the the traditional rocket systems uh if we can continue sort of uh if we can continue sort of uh if we can continue sort of your journey um your journey um your journey um you said that that you were you said that that you were you said that that you were attracted to the attracted to the attracted to the the incredibly advanced technologies of the incredibly advanced technologies of the incredibly advanced technologies of the f-20 uh of the f-18s and just the the f-20 uh of the f-18s and just the the f-20 uh of the f-18s and just the the fighter jets in general the fighter jets in general the fighter jets in general um um um let me ask another question which seems let me ask another question which seems let me ask another question which seems incredibly difficult to do incredibly difficult to do incredibly difficult to do which is landing on a carrier or taking which is landing on a carrier or taking which is landing on a carrier or taking off from a carrier and landing on a off from a carrier and landing on a off from a carrier and landing on a carrier so carrier so carrier so what's that like what are the challenges what's that like what are the challenges what's that like what are the challenges of that taking off is pretty easy it's of that taking off is pretty easy it's of that taking off is pretty easy it's procedurally procedurally procedurally somewhat complex where there's a lot of somewhat complex where there's a lot of somewhat complex where there's a lot of moving parts almost like a clock you moving parts almost like a clock you moving parts almost like a clock you know you're almost in a pocket watch know you're almost in a pocket watch know you're almost in a pocket watch some sense and you're a part of the some sense and you're a part of the some sense and you're a part of the machinery and so long as you press the machinery and so long as you press the machinery and so long as you press the right buttons and do the right things right buttons and do the right things right buttons and do the right things and you're shooting off the front so and you're shooting off the front so and you're shooting off the front so there's like a checklist to fall and

there's like a checklist to fall and there's like a checklist to fall and there's several people involved in that there's several people involved in that there's several people involved in that checklist and you just got to follow the checklist and you just got to follow the checklist and you just got to follow the checklist correctly essentially yep lots checklist correctly essentially yep lots checklist correctly essentially yep lots of ways to screw it up but you'll know of ways to screw it up but you'll know of ways to screw it up but you'll know how to screw it up how to screw it up how to screw it up but landing on the back of the boat is a but landing on the back of the boat is a but landing on the back of the boat is a whole different animal whole different animal whole different animal there's a lot more variables um there's there's a lot more variables um there's there's a lot more variables um there's essentially one or two people essentially one or two people essentially one or two people responsible for the success of that responsible for the success of that responsible for the success of that the landing signal officer who actually the landing signal officer who actually the landing signal officer who actually represents a team of specially trained represents a team of specially trained represents a team of specially trained aviators who are responsible for helping aviators who are responsible for helping aviators who are responsible for helping that aviator land on the boat that aviator land on the boat that aviator land on the boat and uh the pilot himself and uh the pilot himself and uh the pilot himself and and and it it is a hard task to actually fly it it is a hard task to actually fly it it is a hard task to actually fly precisely enough to be good at it so to precisely enough to be good at it so to precisely enough to be good at it so to fly quote unquote the perfect pass you fly quote unquote the perfect pass you fly quote unquote the perfect pass you essentially have to fly your head essentially have to fly your head essentially have to fly your head through a one foot by one foot box through a one foot by one foot box through a one foot by one foot box that's essentially the target you're that's essentially the target you're that's essentially the target you're shooting for shooting for shooting for um plus or minus probably about five um plus or minus probably about five um plus or minus probably about five knots on air speed although we don't knots on air speed although we don't knots on air speed although we don't really judge it by air speed it's really judge it by air speed it's really judge it by air speed it's something called angle of attack something called angle of attack something called angle of attack but generally you know pretty tight but generally you know pretty tight but generally you know pretty tight parameters there parameters there parameters there um and you can do everything perfect and um and you can do everything perfect and um and you can do everything perfect and still fail right so when we go to still fail right so when we go to still fail right so when we go to touchdown we immediately bring the power touchdown we immediately bring the power touchdown we immediately bring the power up and we rotate as if we were doing uh up and we rotate as if we were doing uh up and we rotate as if we were doing uh as if we were bouncing off the deck and as if we were bouncing off the deck and as if we were bouncing off the deck and if we catch it then we slow down if we catch it then we slow down if we catch it then we slow down and then someone tells us to bring the and then someone tells us to bring the and then someone tells us to bring the power back which we do we don't do it on power back which we do we don't do it on power back which we do we don't do it on our own our own our own because it's such a violent experience because it's such a violent experience because it's such a violent experience you can think you're trapped or not or you can think you're trapped or not or you can think you're trapped or not or something breaks and you you bring your something breaks and you you bring your something breaks and you you bring your throttle back that's a very serious throttle back that's a very serious throttle back that's a very serious thing it happened the best of us you thing it happened the best of us you thing it happened the best of us you know i'll admit i've done it once when i know i'll admit i've done it once when i know i'll admit i've done it once when i first got to the squadron um first got to the squadron um first got to the squadron um it's called ease guns land

it's called ease guns land it's called ease guns land uh and so you know i came in the boat uh and so you know i came in the boat uh and so you know i came in the boat and i brought the power i cracked the and i brought the power i cracked the and i brought the power i cracked the power back a little bit before i've been power back a little bit before i've been power back a little bit before i've been told to or that my aircraft had finished told to or that my aircraft had finished told to or that my aircraft had finished settling in and that was a big faux pas settling in and that was a big faux pas settling in and that was a big faux pas right so especially as a new guy so right so especially as a new guy so right so especially as a new guy so um it's it's a very serious business um it's it's a very serious business um it's it's a very serious business there's a lot of eyes on you and there's there's a lot of eyes on you and there's there's a lot of eyes on you and there's a lot of ways to screw it up but the a lot of ways to screw it up but the a lot of ways to screw it up but the physical you know rush of like having a physical you know rush of like having a physical you know rush of like having a great pass and then like there's just great pass and then like there's just great pass and then like there's just the the the like the crash of into the boat and all like the crash of into the boat and all like the crash of into the boat and all that the physical sensation from it you that the physical sensation from it you that the physical sensation from it you know when everything's going great you know when everything's going great you know when everything's going great you know it's top of the world it's a great know it's top of the world it's a great know it's top of the world it's a great feeling feeling feeling how much of it is feel how much of it is how much of it is feel how much of it is how much of it is feel how much of it is um instruments how much is other people um instruments how much is other people um instruments how much is other people just doing the work for you catching you just doing the work for you catching you just doing the work for you catching you as long as you do everything right as long as you do everything right as long as you do everything right there's a few systems we use one is there's a few systems we use one is there's a few systems we use one is called the ball and that ball is called the ball and that ball is called the ball and that ball is external to our aircraft and it's external to our aircraft and it's external to our aircraft and it's b-a-l-l correct well b-a-l-l correct well b-a-l-l correct well it's a it's a i floss landing system it's a it's a i floss landing system it's a it's a i floss landing system which stands for something very long which stands for something very long which stands for something very long convoluted but essentially it's a mirror convoluted but essentially it's a mirror convoluted but essentially it's a mirror with lights on it and with lights on it and with lights on it and you see the light you see the light you see the light at a different cell at a different cell at a different cell based on your position relative to an based on your position relative to an based on your position relative to an ideal glide slope yeah so if you're ideal glide slope yeah so if you're ideal glide slope yeah so if you're right on it you're right in the middle right on it you're right in the middle right on it you're right in the middle and if you're below you're low and if you're below you're low and if you're below you're low and as i add power and as i add power and as i add power and maneuver the aircraft that ball and maneuver the aircraft that ball and maneuver the aircraft that ball you know i see that ball rise you see you know i see that ball rise you see you know i see that ball rise you see the ball low it's a lagging indicator the ball low it's a lagging indicator the ball low it's a lagging indicator though right and your jet is a a lagging though right and your jet is a a lagging though right and your jet is a a lagging engine too right it takes time to pull engine too right it takes time to pull engine too right it takes time to pull up the engine so that adds to the up the engine so that adds to the up the engine so that adds to the complexity you have to think ahead a bit complexity you have to think ahead a bit complexity you have to think ahead a bit you know so you don't want to um you know so you don't want to um you know so you don't want to um you can't just bring the you can't just bring the you can't just bring the power up and leave it there you have to power up and leave it there you have to power up and leave it there you have to bring the power up touch it bring it bring the power up touch it bring it bring the power up touch it bring it back

back back and oh by the way your landing area is and oh by the way your landing area is and oh by the way your landing area is moving not just away from you but also moving not just away from you but also moving not just away from you but also on an angle right because we have an on an angle right because we have an on an angle right because we have an angled deck and so you're constantly angled deck and so you're constantly angled deck and so you're constantly doing one of these to correct yourself doing one of these to correct yourself doing one of these to correct yourself as you go as you go as you go and even every time you do one of those and even every time you do one of those and even every time you do one of those yeah maybe it's a 30 degree angle bank yeah maybe it's a 30 degree angle bank yeah maybe it's a 30 degree angle bank right i'm losing lift right yeah and so right i'm losing lift right yeah and so right i'm losing lift right yeah and so i have to compensate with power each i have to compensate with power each i have to compensate with power each time i do that so i'm doing another one time i do that so i'm doing another one time i do that so i'm doing another one because you have to maintain um the same because you have to maintain um the same because you have to maintain um the same level you're always lowering like it's a level you're always lowering like it's a level you're always lowering like it's a constant rate of descent that's constant rate of descent that's constant rate of descent that's increasing from about 200 feet per increasing from about 200 feet per increasing from about 200 feet per minute to about 650 and every time you minute to about 650 and every time you minute to about 650 and every time you do this that's messing with that do this that's messing with that do this that's messing with that okay so you have to compensate doing okay so you have to compensate doing okay so you have to compensate doing that manually do it manually all right that manually do it manually all right that manually do it manually all right and then of course as you come down that and then of course as you come down that and then of course as you come down that glide slope uh it becomes more and more glide slope uh it becomes more and more glide slope uh it becomes more and more narrow and you have to of course um narrow and you have to of course um narrow and you have to of course um modulate your inputs such that they're modulate your inputs such that they're modulate your inputs such that they're smaller and smaller because they have a smaller and smaller because they have a smaller and smaller because they have a bigger and bigger effect as you get bigger and bigger effect as you get bigger and bigger effect as you get closer in closer in closer in and what happens too when you're getting and what happens too when you're getting and what happens too when you're getting close is that right before you cross close is that right before you cross close is that right before you cross over if this is the boat right here your over if this is the boat right here your over if this is the boat right here your table right before you kind of get your table right before you kind of get your table right before you kind of get your wings over the boat itself wings over the boat itself wings over the boat itself this big wind from the the main tower of this big wind from the the main tower of this big wind from the the main tower of the boat is where it dips down so the the boat is where it dips down so the the boat is where it dips down so the wind actually goes down it's called the wind actually goes down it's called the wind actually goes down it's called the burble it'll actually pull the aircraft burble it'll actually pull the aircraft burble it'll actually pull the aircraft down increase your rate of descent so at down increase your rate of descent so at down increase your rate of descent so at that particular point you need to that particular point you need to that particular point you need to you know increase your power and try to you know increase your power and try to you know increase your power and try to compensate against that and so that's compensate against that and so that's compensate against that and so that's kind of a third variable that's trying kind of a third variable that's trying kind of a third variable that's trying to screw you up on your way down to screw you up on your way down to screw you up on your way down what's the most difficult conditions in what's the most difficult conditions in what's the most difficult conditions in which you have to land or you've seen which you have to land or you've seen which you have to land or you've seen somebody have to land because i think somebody have to land because i think somebody have to land because i think you were also you were also you were also a signal officer as well i was yeah that a signal officer as well i was yeah that a signal officer as well i was yeah that was the headlining signal officer for

was the headlining signal officer for was the headlining signal officer for for my squadron so you you've probably for my squadron so you you've probably for my squadron so you you've probably seen some tough landings i have i've seen some tough landings i have i've seen some tough landings i have i've seen a a ramp strike which is when a seen a a ramp strike which is when a seen a a ramp strike which is when a part of the aircraft hits before um the part of the aircraft hits before um the part of the aircraft hits before um the landing area which is landing area which is landing area which is basically the round out of the boat that basically the round out of the boat that basically the round out of the boat that is before the landing area so they is before the landing area so they is before the landing area so they basically struck the back of the boat basically struck the back of the boat basically struck the back of the boat coming in yeah it was just their hook so coming in yeah it was just their hook so coming in yeah it was just their hook so it wasn't the aircraft it wasn't the aircraft it wasn't the aircraft and they were fine that one was kind of and they were fine that one was kind of and they were fine that one was kind of ugly um but it like rips that part of ugly um but it like rips that part of ugly um but it like rips that part of the aircraft absolutely and then you the aircraft absolutely and then you the aircraft absolutely and then you land on your bellies that kind of thing land on your bellies that kind of thing land on your bellies that kind of thing in this particular case it hit and then in this particular case it hit and then in this particular case it hit and then it it gave and essentially dragged the it it gave and essentially dragged the it it gave and essentially dragged the hook on the on the surface after that hook on the on the surface after that hook on the on the surface after that and so he was able to grab a wire at and so he was able to grab a wire at and so he was able to grab a wire at that point when does that kind of thing that point when does that kind of thing that point when does that kind of thing happen just a miscalculation by the happen just a miscalculation by the happen just a miscalculation by the pilot or pilot or pilot or is it uh weather conditions i wouldn't is it uh weather conditions i wouldn't is it uh weather conditions i wouldn't even call it miscalculation i mean i'm even call it miscalculation i mean i'm even call it miscalculation i mean i'm gonna put the blame on the pilot because gonna put the blame on the pilot because gonna put the blame on the pilot because he's the only one in the cockpit but he's the only one in the cockpit but he's the only one in the cockpit but then the day he's reacting to the then the day he's reacting to the then the day he's reacting to the situations he's dealing with and so it situations he's dealing with and so it situations he's dealing with and so it may be errors or he may be doing the may be errors or he may be doing the may be errors or he may be doing the best with you know the conditions that best with you know the conditions that best with you know the conditions that he's been given on that particular one he's been given on that particular one he's been given on that particular one you just got two high rated signs very you just got two high rated signs very you just got two high rated signs very common and that's when you see it with common and that's when you see it with common and that's when you see it with new pilots you see it with older pilots new pilots you see it with older pilots new pilots you see it with older pilots right new ones and complacent ones what right new ones and complacent ones what right new ones and complacent ones what you see is they'll um you see is they'll um you see is they'll um try to make the ball go right where they try to make the ball go right where they try to make the ball go right where they want it in close they think they can want it in close they think they can want it in close they think they can beat the game a little bit and they try beat the game a little bit and they try beat the game a little bit and they try to and so we have sayings we teach we to and so we have sayings we teach we to and so we have sayings we teach we teach pilots you know as a landing teach pilots you know as a landing teach pilots you know as a landing signal officer we tell them like don't signal officer we tell them like don't signal officer we tell them like don't re-center the high ball in close it's re-center the high ball in close it's re-center the high ball in close it's one of the rules to live by and so when one of the rules to live by and so when one of the rules to live by and so when the ball is up high don't try to bring the ball is up high don't try to bring the ball is up high don't try to bring it back in close to like the center it back in close to like the center it back in close to like the center point when you're when you're in close point when you're when you're in close point when you're when you're in close because what you're doing you bring the because what you're doing you bring the because what you're doing you bring the power off and you're gonna crash right

power off and you're gonna crash right power off and you're gonna crash right down and that's what happens right down and that's what happens right down and that's what happens right because you got the burble pulling you because you got the burble pulling you because you got the burble pulling you down you might be correcting which is down you might be correcting which is down you might be correcting which is decreasing your lift decreasing your lift decreasing your lift uh and then you have that type of uh and then you have that type of uh and then you have that type of maneuver so how are you supposed to do maneuver so how are you supposed to do maneuver so how are you supposed to do all this in harsh weather conditions all this in harsh weather conditions all this in harsh weather conditions and so that's the one i wanted to tell and so that's the one i wanted to tell and so that's the one i wanted to tell you about that's the hardest one and you about that's the hardest one and you about that's the hardest one and what you hear is if you hear 99 taxi what you hear is if you hear 99 taxi what you hear is if you hear 99 taxi lights on lights on lights on that's a really shitty day 99 taxi that's a really shitty day 99 taxi that's a really shitty day 99 taxi lights on what's that mean so everyone lights on what's that mean so everyone lights on what's that mean so everyone put your taxi lights on because put your taxi lights on because put your taxi lights on because you're about to land on the boat and you you're about to land on the boat and you you're about to land on the boat and you don't see the boat weather is so bad don't see the boat weather is so bad don't see the boat weather is so bad that the landing still officer on the that the landing still officer on the that the landing still officer on the boat can't see you either and you can't boat can't see you either and you can't boat can't see you either and you can't see the boat and you won't be able to see the boat and you won't be able to see the boat and you won't be able to see it when you touch down see it when you touch down see it when you touch down so we call that a zero zero landing so we call that a zero zero landing so we call that a zero zero landing and you turn on the taxi light so that and you turn on the taxi light so that and you turn on the taxi light so that the lso who has a radio in his hand that the lso who has a radio in his hand that the lso who has a radio in his hand that looks like a phone from 1980 looks like a phone from 1980 looks like a phone from 1980 is talking directly to the pilot and is talking directly to the pilot and is talking directly to the pilot and he's looking at that little light in the he's looking at that little light in the he's looking at that little light in the rain and he's telling him you're high rain and he's telling him you're high rain and he's telling him you're high you're low power you're low power you're low power things like that come right back to left things like that come right back to left things like that come right back to left and literally talking him down to land and literally talking him down to land and literally talking him down to land on the boat right there and the pilot on the boat right there and the pilot on the boat right there and the pilot usually it comes as a surprise to the usually it comes as a surprise to the usually it comes as a surprise to the pilot delaney because he's just pilot delaney because he's just pilot delaney because he's just listening to the voice you can't see the listening to the voice you can't see the listening to the voice you can't see the ball can't see the boat and all of a ball can't see the boat and all of a ball can't see the boat and all of a sudden you just hit the boat you crash sudden you just hit the boat you crash sudden you just hit the boat you crash crash we're going about 1600 feet per crash we're going about 1600 feet per crash we're going about 1600 feet per minute descent minute descent minute descent at that point so you're still you're at that point so you're still you're at that point so you're still you're going super fast going super fast going super fast it's all this is happening fast you it's all this is happening fast you it's all this is happening fast you don't know don't know don't know you don't know what at you don't know what at you don't know what at the moment it's gonna hit so you're just the moment it's gonna hit so you're just the moment it's gonna hit so you're just going into the darkness and just waiting going into the darkness and just waiting going into the darkness and just waiting for it to hit it's not dark though a lot for it to hit it's not dark though a lot for it to hit it's not dark though a lot of times it's white into the light

of times it's white into the light of times it's white into the light you're going into into the light you're going into into the light you're going into into the light and then there's a voice from an 80s and then there's a voice from an 80s and then there's a voice from an 80s phone phone phone i got it this this is terrible i got it this this is terrible i got it this this is terrible um but so that you still um but so that you still um but so that you still uh you still have to uh you still have to uh you still have to so this kind of thing happens you still so this kind of thing happens you still so this kind of thing happens you still have to land sometimes you just don't have to land sometimes you just don't have to land sometimes you just don't have a place to divert but you know in a have a place to divert but you know in a have a place to divert but you know in a sense we're trained for that because we sense we're trained for that because we sense we're trained for that because we do the night landings as well and i do the night landings as well and i do the night landings as well and i think you'll find this interesting but i think you'll find this interesting but i think you'll find this interesting but i always found that the night landings always found that the night landings always found that the night landings where in these particular cases where in these particular cases where in these particular cases you're usually lined up behind the boat you're usually lined up behind the boat you're usually lined up behind the boat maybe 10 15 miles whereas the other ones maybe 10 15 miles whereas the other ones maybe 10 15 miles whereas the other ones it's like a tight circle the landing it's like a tight circle the landing it's like a tight circle the landing pattern and so we can potentially see pattern and so we can potentially see pattern and so we can potentially see the boat way out there um the boat way out there um the boat way out there um if the lights were on which they're not if the lights were on which they're not if the lights were on which they're not but we can maybe see like the string of but we can maybe see like the string of but we can maybe see like the string of aircraft in front of us but what's aircraft in front of us but what's aircraft in front of us but what's what's interesting is that it can take a what's interesting is that it can take a what's interesting is that it can take a while i can t you might be 15 miles out while i can t you might be 15 miles out while i can t you might be 15 miles out and and and your lights are turned down as dim as your lights are turned down as dim as your lights are turned down as dim as possible you have a cloud deck maybe at possible you have a cloud deck maybe at possible you have a cloud deck maybe at six or seven thousand feet so that the six or seven thousand feet so that the six or seven thousand feet so that the starlight there's no moon but let's say starlight there's no moon but let's say starlight there's no moon but let's say the star light's blocked out right the star light's blocked out right the star light's blocked out right because just the star light alone no because just the star light alone no because just the star light alone no moon moon moon you can see the boat you can see the you can see the boat you can see the you can see the boat you can see the water water water but when that goes away it's like but when that goes away it's like but when that goes away it's like closing your eyes right you can't tell closing your eyes right you can't tell closing your eyes right you can't tell anything it could be upside down anything it could be upside down anything it could be upside down you could be in any position you could be in any position you could be in any position and for me it was almost a meditative and for me it was almost a meditative and for me it was almost a meditative process that i had to snap myself back process that i had to snap myself back process that i had to snap myself back out of when i was on like a long out of when i was on like a long out of when i was on like a long straightaway and then i would see the straightaway and then i would see the straightaway and then i would see the light pop up in the sea of darkness light pop up in the sea of darkness light pop up in the sea of darkness right no lights anywhere can't even see right no lights anywhere can't even see right no lights anywhere can't even see the horizon and i just see a light out the horizon and i just see a light out the horizon and i just see a light out there there there my instruments are telling me and my instruments are telling me and my instruments are telling me and they're turned down as far as they can they're turned down as far as they can they're turned down as far as they can go right so i can barely see them so my

go right so i can barely see them so my go right so i can barely see them so my eyes can adjust and i'm just staring at eyes can adjust and i'm just staring at eyes can adjust and i'm just staring at this light in the distance this light in the distance this light in the distance and it's just very meditative and it's and it's just very meditative and it's and it's just very meditative and it's the hum the hum the hum behind you and behind you and behind you and and then like four miles you know and then like four miles you know and then like four miles you know it's almost like oh the light is a it's almost like oh the light is a it's almost like oh the light is a little bit bigger and you almost kind of little bit bigger and you almost kind of little bit bigger and you almost kind of have to snap back to it and be like i have to snap back to it and be like i have to snap back to it and be like i need to like kind of like need to like kind of like need to like kind of like look around a little bit and engage my look around a little bit and engage my look around a little bit and engage my brain like back to my body and like brain like back to my body and like brain like back to my body and like yeah do this cause you're gonna have to yeah do this cause you're gonna have to yeah do this cause you're gonna have to actually land well is there actually land well is there actually land well is there just you said you don't necessarily feel just you said you don't necessarily feel just you said you don't necessarily feel the romantic notion of the whole thing the romantic notion of the whole thing the romantic notion of the whole thing but is there some aspects of flying but is there some aspects of flying but is there some aspects of flying where you look up and maybe you see the where you look up and maybe you see the where you look up and maybe you see the star the stars star the stars star the stars or um or um or um yeah that kind of thing that you just yeah that kind of thing that you just yeah that kind of thing that you just like holy crap how did humans accomplish like holy crap how did humans accomplish like holy crap how did humans accomplish all of this like am i actually flying all of this like am i actually flying all of this like am i actually flying right now right now right now i used to have those moments on the boat i used to have those moments on the boat i used to have those moments on the boat when i was catching planes land i would when i was catching planes land i would when i was catching planes land i would i would they would trap and it'd be i would they would trap and it'd be i would they would trap and it'd be nighttime and it's just all this chaos nighttime and it's just all this chaos nighttime and it's just all this chaos in the middle of the ocean and nothing in the middle of the ocean and nothing in the middle of the ocean and nothing and i would have these moments like how and i would have these moments like how and i would have these moments like how the hell did i end up here you know the hell did i end up here you know the hell did i end up here you know there's one moment in time next to an there's one moment in time next to an there's one moment in time next to an aircraft landing on a boat in the middle aircraft landing on a boat in the middle aircraft landing on a boat in the middle of the ocean you know of the ocean you know of the ocean you know where did my life you know how did my where did my life you know how did my where did my life you know how did my life go to end up here how interesting life go to end up here how interesting life go to end up here how interesting but what i did start to enjoy was the but what i did start to enjoy was the but what i did start to enjoy was the night vision goggles and putting those night vision goggles and putting those night vision goggles and putting those on and looking up at the stars flying on and looking up at the stars flying on and looking up at the stars flying around especially around especially around especially over the ocean what do they look like over the ocean what do they look like over the ocean what do they look like and there's so many there's just so many and there's so many there's just so many and there's so many there's just so many stars that you know you normally can't stars that you know you normally can't stars that you know you normally can't see they're shooting stars all the time see they're shooting stars all the time see they're shooting stars all the time almost every flight you'd see them with almost every flight you'd see them with almost every flight you'd see them with the goggles on the goggles on the goggles on so it was a great pleasure to take so it was a great pleasure to take so it was a great pleasure to take advantage of advantage of advantage of the lack of light pollution in some the lack of light pollution in some the lack of light pollution in some cases especially on deployment to go

cases especially on deployment to go cases especially on deployment to go grab some goggles at night and go out grab some goggles at night and go out grab some goggles at night and go out some quiet spot in the ship that no one some quiet spot in the ship that no one some quiet spot in the ship that no one can see me can see me can see me and just kind of look around you know and just kind of look around you know and just kind of look around you know yeah it's humbling quick break bathroom break that wasn't quick break bathroom break that wasn't my quick quick stretch of legs my quick quick stretch of legs my quick quick stretch of legs you got a few cool patches i do so you got a few cool patches i do so you got a few cool patches i do so this is a vfa 11 red rippers patch uh this is a vfa 11 red rippers patch uh this is a vfa 11 red rippers patch uh typically uh going actually on our arm typically uh going actually on our arm typically uh going actually on our arm uh so this is actually what we call the uh so this is actually what we call the uh so this is actually what we call the boar's head or arnold so this is boar's head or arnold so this is boar's head or arnold so this is actually the actually the actually the the boar's head from the gordon's gin the boar's head from the gordon's gin the boar's head from the gordon's gin bottle bottle bottle so yeah in 1918 we were in the we were so yeah in 1918 we were in the we were so yeah in 1918 we were in the we were in london or the uk somewhere and we in london or the uk somewhere and we in london or the uk somewhere and we apparently partied with the owner and apparently partied with the owner and apparently partied with the owner and founder of founder of founder of cornish gin we had a great time and cornish gin we had a great time and cornish gin we had a great time and there's a signed letter in our writing there's a signed letter in our writing there's a signed letter in our writing room that says we can use the logo in room that says we can use the logo in room that says we can use the logo in perpetuity oh man perpetuity oh man perpetuity oh man uh yeah so would like to give you that uh yeah so would like to give you that uh yeah so would like to give you that patch patch patch i drank quite a bit of gourd so this is i drank quite a bit of gourd so this is i drank quite a bit of gourd so this is good good good and then i'd like to give you that coin and then i'd like to give you that coin and then i'd like to give you that coin uh from from our squadron uh from from our squadron uh from from our squadron the red rippers that's a badass name the red rippers that's a badass name the red rippers that's a badass name thank you brother you're welcome so thank you brother you're welcome so thank you brother you're welcome so let's jump around a little bit but let's jump around a little bit but let's jump around a little bit but let me ask you about this let me ask you about this let me ask you about this one set of experiences that you had and one set of experiences that you had and one set of experiences that you had and people in your squadron had so you and a people in your squadron had so you and a people in your squadron had so you and a few people in the squadron either few people in the squadron either few people in the squadron either detected ufos on your instruments or saw detected ufos on your instruments or saw detected ufos on your instruments or saw them directly them directly them directly tell me the full story of these ufo tell me the full story of these ufo tell me the full story of these ufo sightings sightings sightings and uh to the smallest technical details and uh to the smallest technical details and uh to the smallest technical details because i love those because i love those because i love those i'll do my best i'll do my best i'll do my best so so so we returned from and when i say we i

we returned from and when i say we i we returned from and when i say we i mean my not my squadron but vfa11 the mean my not my squadron but vfa11 the mean my not my squadron but vfa11 the red rippers uh i was a red rippers uh i was a red rippers uh i was a a somewhat junior pilot at the time i a somewhat junior pilot at the time i a somewhat junior pilot at the time i joined them on deployment 2012 joined them on deployment 2012 joined them on deployment 2012 where they had been already out there where they had been already out there where they had been already out there for about six months or so for about six months or so for about six months or so um um um operating in the vicinity of afghanistan operating in the vicinity of afghanistan operating in the vicinity of afghanistan uh i joined them and then we we flew uh i joined them and then we we flew uh i joined them and then we we flew back and still as a relatively new guy back and still as a relatively new guy back and still as a relatively new guy we came back and we entered uh what's we came back and we entered uh what's we came back and we entered uh what's considered a maintenance phase where we considered a maintenance phase where we considered a maintenance phase where we slow down the tactical flying a bit uh slow down the tactical flying a bit uh slow down the tactical flying a bit uh kind of recuperate kind of recuperate kind of recuperate do some maintenance on the aircraft and do some maintenance on the aircraft and do some maintenance on the aircraft and our particular model of the f-18 the lot our particular model of the f-18 the lot our particular model of the f-18 the lot the lot number the lot number the lot number uh was plumbed uh was plumbed uh was plumbed for for for the particular things that were needed the particular things that were needed the particular things that were needed to upgrade the radar from what's known to upgrade the radar from what's known to upgrade the radar from what's known as the abg-73 to the apg-79 as the abg-73 to the apg-79 as the abg-73 to the apg-79 and the abg-73 is a mechanically uh and the abg-73 is a mechanically uh and the abg-73 is a mechanically uh scanned array radar uh scanned array radar uh scanned array radar uh it's a you know perfectly fine radar but it's a you know perfectly fine radar but it's a you know perfectly fine radar but the acer radar is kind of a you know the acer radar is kind of a you know the acer radar is kind of a you know magnitude jumping capability kind of a magnitude jumping capability kind of a magnitude jumping capability kind of a an analog digital kind of mindset so got an analog digital kind of mindset so got an analog digital kind of mindset so got it so it's a leap to digital it so it's a leap to digital it so it's a leap to digital uh avg 73 i mean are these things on a uh avg 73 i mean are these things on a uh avg 73 i mean are these things on a carrier like what are we talking about carrier like what are we talking about carrier like what are we talking about here this is how big is a radar yeah so here this is how big is a radar yeah so here this is how big is a radar yeah so this is actually the radar it's in the this is actually the radar it's in the this is actually the radar it's in the f-18 itself f-18 itself f-18 itself okay so when you say that we're chosen okay so when you say that we're chosen okay so when you say that we're chosen this is to test this is to test this is to test uh the upgrade to the new the 79 abg 79.

uh the upgrade to the new the 79 abg 79. uh the upgrade to the new the 79 abg 79. less of an uh test and more of just hey less of an uh test and more of just hey less of an uh test and more of just hey it's your turn to get the upgrade like it's your turn to get the upgrade like it's your turn to get the upgrade like we're all going to these better radars we're all going to these better radars we're all going to these better radars they were building ones off the off the they were building ones off the off the they were building ones off the off the line with the new radar but we were this line with the new radar but we were this line with the new radar but we were this weird transitionary squadron in the weird transitionary squadron in the weird transitionary squadron in the middle that transitioned from the older middle that transitioned from the older middle that transitioned from the older ones to the new ones ones to the new ones ones to the new ones but it's not particularly rare to fly but it's not particularly rare to fly but it's not particularly rare to fly with different types of radar because with different types of radar because with different types of radar because in the and we call the fleet replacement in the and we call the fleet replacement in the and we call the fleet replacement squadron essentially the training ground squadron essentially the training ground squadron essentially the training ground for the f-18 you have all sorts of f-18s for the f-18 you have all sorts of f-18s for the f-18 you have all sorts of f-18s with different radars so with different radars so with different radars so you are used to having multiple ones but you are used to having multiple ones but you are used to having multiple ones but in the actual deployable in the actual deployable in the actual deployable combat squadron combat squadron combat squadron um um um we upgraded and when we upgraded we saw we upgraded and when we upgraded we saw we upgraded and when we upgraded we saw that there were objects on the radar that there were objects on the radar that there were objects on the radar that we were seeing the next day in in that we were seeing the next day in in that we were seeing the next day in in this with this new radar that weren't this with this new radar that weren't this with this new radar that weren't there with the old radar and these were there with the old radar and these were there with the old radar and these were sometimes you know the same day you sometimes you know the same day you sometimes you know the same day you might go on two flights the one in the might go on two flights the one in the might go on two flights the one in the morning might be with all the radar the morning might be with all the radar the morning might be with all the radar the one the evening with the new radar one the evening with the new radar one the evening with the new radar and you and you'd see the objects with and you and you'd see the objects with and you and you'd see the objects with the with the new radar and that's not the with the new radar and that's not the with the new radar and that's not overly surprising in some sense uh they overly surprising in some sense uh they overly surprising in some sense uh they are more sensitive uh perhaps they're are more sensitive uh perhaps they're are more sensitive uh perhaps they're not filtering out everything they should not filtering out everything they should not filtering out everything they should be yet or perhaps there's some other be yet or perhaps there's some other be yet or perhaps there's some other type of error type of error type of error maybe it needs to be calibrated maybe it needs to be calibrated maybe it needs to be calibrated whatever it was relatively new and we whatever it was relatively new and we whatever it was relatively new and we were somewhat used to there being were somewhat used to there being were somewhat used to there being software problems with these types of software problems with these types of software problems with these types of things occasionally just like anything things occasionally just like anything things occasionally just like anything else else else and so okay maybe this is a radar and so okay maybe this is a radar and so okay maybe this is a radar software malfunction we're getting some software malfunction we're getting some software malfunction we're getting some false tracks as we call them false tracks as we call them false tracks as we call them um um um what were you seeing what were you seeing what were you seeing and so what we would see are and so what we would see are and so what we would see are representations of the object so this is representations of the object so this is representations of the object so this is off of our radar we're not seeing a off of our radar we're not seeing a off of our radar we're not seeing a visual image here this is kind of like a

visual image here this is kind of like a visual image here this is kind of like a what's being displayed to us almost like what's being displayed to us almost like what's being displayed to us almost like in a gaming fashion right like our the in a gaming fashion right like our the in a gaming fashion right like our the icon right so the icon is showing us hey icon right so the icon is showing us hey icon right so the icon is showing us hey something is there and here's the something is there and here's the something is there and here's the parameters i can understand about it so parameters i can understand about it so parameters i can understand about it so this is in the cockpit there's a display this is in the cockpit there's a display this is in the cockpit there's a display that's showing that's showing that's showing um some visualization with the radar is um some visualization with the radar is um some visualization with the radar is detecting correct detecting correct detecting correct and there's two different ways to do and there's two different ways to do and there's two different ways to do that the first one is like the actual that the first one is like the actual that the first one is like the actual data like the radar where data like the radar where data like the radar where um i am um i am um i am it's showing me the data kind of as if it's showing me the data kind of as if it's showing me the data kind of as if it's in front of me and i'm selecting it's in front of me and i'm selecting it's in front of me and i'm selecting those contacts and there's another those contacts and there's another those contacts and there's another screen called the situational awareness screen called the situational awareness screen called the situational awareness page and that's kind of a god's eye view page and that's kind of a god's eye view page and that's kind of a god's eye view that brings all that data into one spot that brings all that data into one spot that brings all that data into one spot and so i'm going to talk about this from and so i'm going to talk about this from and so i'm going to talk about this from the essay page from the situational the essay page from the situational the essay page from the situational awareness page versus the individual awareness page versus the individual awareness page versus the individual radar ones because it's easier but okay radar ones because it's easier but okay radar ones because it's easier but okay so sorry to linger on that so the so sorry to linger on that so the so sorry to linger on that so the individual displays are like first individual displays are like first individual displays are like first person person person and then the essay and then the essay and then the essay is is is when you say god's eye view is like from when you say god's eye view is like from when you say god's eye view is like from the top integration of all that the top integration of all that the top integration of all that information information information as if it's looking down onto the earth as if it's looking down onto the earth as if it's looking down onto the earth yes is that a good way to summarize it yes is that a good way to summarize it yes is that a good way to summarize it it is but for the aviator it's slightly it is but for the aviator it's slightly it is but for the aviator it's slightly different because those two radar different because those two radar different because those two radar displays i talked about are at the displays i talked about are at the displays i talked about are at the bottom of that display bottom of that display bottom of that display is kind of representative of where i am is kind of representative of where i am is kind of representative of where i am and so i see what's in front of me got and so i see what's in front of me got and so i see what's in front of me got it whereas the situational awareness it whereas the situational awareness it whereas the situational awareness page page page uh the aircraft is located in the center uh the aircraft is located in the center uh the aircraft is located in the center of that of that of that and then i all around me you know based and then i all around me you know based and then i all around me you know based off of the data link and wherever i'm off of the data link and wherever i'm off of the data link and wherever i'm getting information from getting information from getting information from i can see that whole where page i can i can see that whole where page i can i can see that whole where page i can see all the situation so see all the situation so see all the situation so i'm going to kind of talk about this i'm going to kind of talk about this i'm going to kind of talk about this from the situational awareness page

from the situational awareness page from the situational awareness page which is a top-down view just to kind of which is a top-down view just to kind of which is a top-down view just to kind of frame our minds instead of jumping frame our minds instead of jumping frame our minds instead of jumping around around around and so what we would see out there is and so what we would see out there is and so what we would see out there is we'd see these indications that we'd see these indications that we'd see these indications that something would be there and they would something would be there and they would something would be there and they would have a track file have a track file have a track file that track file that thing that that track file that thing that that track file that thing that represents the object has a line coming represents the object has a line coming represents the object has a line coming out of it and that represents what's out of it and that represents what's out of it and that represents what's called the target aspect indicator called the target aspect indicator called the target aspect indicator um and there's some tracking from the um and there's some tracking from the um and there's some tracking from the radar correct so it's showing you where radar correct so it's showing you where radar correct so it's showing you where the object's going this is all pretty the object's going this is all pretty the object's going this is all pretty cool that the radar can do all this so cool that the radar can do all this so cool that the radar can do all this so radar locks in on the different objects radar locks in on the different objects radar locks in on the different objects and it tracks them over time correct and it tracks them over time correct and it tracks them over time correct that's coming from the radar that's like that's coming from the radar that's like that's coming from the radar that's like built-in feature mm-hmm okay cool out built-in feature mm-hmm okay cool out built-in feature mm-hmm okay cool out there we're seeing it so we don't have there we're seeing it so we don't have there we're seeing it so we don't have to necessarily like pull things into our to necessarily like pull things into our to necessarily like pull things into our our tracker in some sense right like our tracker in some sense right like our tracker in some sense right like it's all out there and then we can kind it's all out there and then we can kind it's all out there and then we can kind of choose the highlight on stuff or to of choose the highlight on stuff or to of choose the highlight on stuff or to kind of focus in on it more so kind of focus in on it more so kind of focus in on it more so but the information should all be out but the information should all be out but the information should all be out there there there and so we'd see that target aspect and so we'd see that target aspect and so we'd see that target aspect indicator that that line on a typical indicator that that line on a typical indicator that that line on a typical aircraft you know it would kind of look aircraft you know it would kind of look aircraft you know it would kind of look like this it'd be coming out and it like this it'd be coming out and it like this it'd be coming out and it would go steady and if they turn you you would go steady and if they turn you you would go steady and if they turn you you know it'll be like know it'll be like know it'll be like when you see them turn right like it's when you see them turn right like it's when you see them turn right like it's not magic but this object they would the not magic but this object they would the not magic but this object they would the target aspect would kind of target aspect would kind of target aspect would kind of be like all over the place like kind of be like all over the place like kind of be like all over the place like kind of randomly in the 360 degrees you know randomly in the 360 degrees you know randomly in the 360 degrees you know from that top-down view that line would from that top-down view that line would from that top-down view that line would be be be in a place so kind of you know is it in a place so kind of you know is it in a place so kind of you know is it unable to determine the target aspect is unable to determine the target aspect is unable to determine the target aspect is it stationary you know and that's just it stationary you know and that's just it stationary you know and that's just how it puts it out and it's not used to how it puts it out and it's not used to how it puts it out and it's not used to seeing it so i'm not saying that's seeing it so i'm not saying that's seeing it so i'm not saying that's necessarily super weird but it was necessarily super weird but it was necessarily super weird but it was different than what we were used to different than what we were used to different than what we were used to seeing because we weren't used to seeing seeing because we weren't used to seeing seeing because we weren't used to seeing stationary objects out there very much stationary objects out there very much stationary objects out there very much and what was also interesting is that and what was also interesting is that and what was also interesting is that these weren't just stationary these weren't just stationary these weren't just stationary on a zero wind day right these are

on a zero wind day right these are on a zero wind day right these are stationary at twenty thousand feet stationary at twenty thousand feet stationary at twenty thousand feet fifteen thousand feet fifteen thousand feet fifteen thousand feet five hundred feet five hundred feet five hundred feet you know with with the wind blowing you you know with with the wind blowing you you know with with the wind blowing you know know know and so much like the sea you know when and so much like the sea you know when and so much like the sea you know when we're up there fighting it affects we're up there fighting it affects we're up there fighting it affects everything we consider the wind when everything we consider the wind when everything we consider the wind when we're you know shooting missiles when we're you know shooting missiles when we're you know shooting missiles when we're flying or fuel considerations it's we're flying or fuel considerations it's we're flying or fuel considerations it's like operating you know in that volume like operating you know in that volume like operating you know in that volume of air like the ocean everything's going of air like the ocean everything's going of air like the ocean everything's going with the current with the current with the current and so anything that doesn't go with the and so anything that doesn't go with the and so anything that doesn't go with the current you know is immediately current you know is immediately current you know is immediately kind of identifiable and strange and kind of identifiable and strange and kind of identifiable and strange and that's why these were initially that's why these were initially that's why these were initially strangers because they would be strangers because they would be strangers because they would be stationary against the wind so if you stationary against the wind so if you stationary against the wind so if you had something like a good drone had something like a good drone had something like a good drone in the windy conditions what would that in the windy conditions what would that in the windy conditions what would that look like would it would it not come off look like would it would it not come off look like would it would it not come off as stationary would it sort of float as stationary would it sort of float as stationary would it sort of float about kind of thing no i think with the about kind of thing no i think with the about kind of thing no i think with the drone technology we have today they drone technology we have today they drone technology we have today they could stay within a pretty tight could stay within a pretty tight could stay within a pretty tight location well i meant like dji drone not location well i meant like dji drone not location well i meant like dji drone not like cons i'm saying like generically like cons i'm saying like generically like cons i'm saying like generically speaking i would not i'm not a military speaking i would not i'm not a military speaking i would not i'm not a military drone no i just i have a dji drone drone no i just i have a dji drone drone no i just i have a dji drone myself even and you know maybe not 100 myself even and you know maybe not 100 myself even and you know maybe not 100 knots but if that thing's in 30 or 40 knots but if that thing's in 30 or 40 knots but if that thing's in 30 or 40 not wins you know not wins you know not wins you know the amount of the amount of the amount of distance it's going to be kind of doing distance it's going to be kind of doing distance it's going to be kind of doing one of these like that change is not one of these like that change is not one of these like that change is not something i'm going to detect from maybe something i'm going to detect from maybe something i'm going to detect from maybe many miles away interesting so it could many miles away interesting so it could many miles away interesting so it could look very stationary look very stationary look very stationary but that wasn't necessarily you know and but that wasn't necessarily you know and but that wasn't necessarily you know and what's interesting about this story is what's interesting about this story is what's interesting about this story is that there's not like the one smoking that there's not like the one smoking that there's not like the one smoking gun right you have to kind of look at gun right you have to kind of look at gun right you have to kind of look at everything and that's what i know i everything and that's what i know i everything and that's what i know i don't like about don't like about don't like about the department of defense and just the department of defense and just the department of defense and just generally people's take on this is that generally people's take on this is that generally people's take on this is that everything is kind of based around a everything is kind of based around a everything is kind of based around a single image you know or that that one single image you know or that that one single image you know or that that one case but a lot of interestingness comes case but a lot of interestingness comes case but a lot of interestingness comes from the duration or the time it's been

from the duration or the time it's been from the duration or the time it's been out there how they're interacting out there how they're interacting out there how they're interacting relative to other objects out there and relative to other objects out there and relative to other objects out there and you don't get that information when you you don't get that information when you you don't get that information when you just look at a frame for a second you just look at a frame for a second you just look at a frame for a second you know everyone kind of bites off on the know everyone kind of bites off on the know everyone kind of bites off on the shiny object but so you yourself shiny object but so you yourself shiny object but so you yourself from your particular slice of things from your particular slice of things from your particular slice of things you've experienced and seen directly or you've experienced and seen directly or you've experienced and seen directly or indirectly you've kind of built up an indirectly you've kind of built up an indirectly you've kind of built up an intuition about what are the things that intuition about what are the things that intuition about what are the things that were being seen i want to go that far were being seen i want to go that far were being seen i want to go that far i've just been able to you know i've just been able to you know i've just been able to you know eliminate some some variables because of eliminate some some variables because of eliminate some some variables because of how long i've observed it so like you how long i've observed it so like you how long i've observed it so like you said yes can a drone stay in a said yes can a drone stay in a said yes can a drone stay in a particular position against the wind particular position against the wind particular position against the wind like that certainly but i don't think it like that certainly but i don't think it like that certainly but i don't think it can do that and then go point eight mach can do that and then go point eight mach can do that and then go point eight mach for four hours after that you know and for four hours after that you know and for four hours after that you know and so so so when you when you look at it outside of when you when you look at it outside of when you when you look at it outside of that once that moment in time then it that once that moment in time then it that once that moment in time then it eliminates a lot of the potential things eliminates a lot of the potential things eliminates a lot of the potential things it could be at least from my perspective it could be at least from my perspective it could be at least from my perspective so what kind of stuff did you see yeah so what kind of stuff did you see yeah so what kind of stuff did you see yeah in the instruments we'd see them flying in the instruments we'd see them flying in the instruments we'd see them flying um in patterns uh kind of racetrack um in patterns uh kind of racetrack um in patterns uh kind of racetrack patterns or circular patterns or just patterns or circular patterns or just patterns or circular patterns or just going kind of straight east going kind of straight east going kind of straight east i occasionally see them supersonic 1.1 i occasionally see them supersonic 1.1 i occasionally see them supersonic 1.1 1.2 mach but typically 0.6 to 0.8 mach 1.2 mach but typically 0.6 to 0.8 mach 1.2 mach but typically 0.6 to 0.8 mach just for extremely extended periods of just for extremely extended periods of just for extremely extended periods of time you know essentially all the time time you know essentially all the time time you know essentially all the time and this is airspace where there's not and this is airspace where there's not and this is airspace where there's not supposed to be anything else at all supposed to be anything else at all supposed to be anything else at all and it's pretty far out there it starts and it's pretty far out there it starts and it's pretty far out there it starts 10 miles off the coast goes like 300 10 miles off the coast goes like 300 10 miles off the coast goes like 300 miles can you say the location that miles can you say the location that miles can you say the location that we're talking about off the coast of we're talking about off the coast of we're talking about off the coast of virginia beach virginia beach virginia beach got it and so nobody is supposed to be got it and so nobody is supposed to be got it and so nobody is supposed to be out there out there out there it's possible for people to be there it's possible for people to be there it's possible for people to be there it's not necessarily restricted but it's it's not necessarily restricted but it's it's not necessarily restricted but it's well monitored and we're out there every well monitored and we're out there every well monitored and we're out there every day all day and so you know people know

day all day and so you know people know day all day and so you know people know to stay clear if a cessna goes bumbling to stay clear if a cessna goes bumbling to stay clear if a cessna goes bumbling in there everyone's going to know about in there everyone's going to know about in there everyone's going to know about it fa is going to you know call him out it fa is going to you know call him out it fa is going to you know call him out he's going to tell us about it so he's going to tell us about it so he's going to tell us about it so concursions happen not a big deal but um concursions happen not a big deal but um concursions happen not a big deal but um they're pretty rare honestly because they're pretty rare honestly because they're pretty rare honestly because everyone knows area and we've been everyone knows area and we've been everyone knows area and we've been operating there for decades and what are operating there for decades and what are operating there for decades and what are the trajectories at 0.6 to 0.8 mach that the trajectories at 0.6 to 0.8 mach that the trajectories at 0.6 to 0.8 mach that these objects were taking these objects were taking these objects were taking typically they would be in some type of typically they would be in some type of typically they would be in some type of circular pattern or kind of racetrack circular pattern or kind of racetrack circular pattern or kind of racetrack pattern when they were at those speeds pattern when they were at those speeds pattern when they were at those speeds or i just see them kind of it wasn't or i just see them kind of it wasn't or i just see them kind of it wasn't always like a mechanical flight always like a mechanical flight always like a mechanical flight description and when i say that i mean description and when i say that i mean description and when i say that i mean like an autopilot is going to be like an autopilot is going to be like an autopilot is going to be just very precise right it's going to be just very precise right it's going to be just very precise right it's going to be locked on straight and whereas i could locked on straight and whereas i could locked on straight and whereas i could see an airplane i could tell if the see an airplane i could tell if the see an airplane i could tell if the pilot's flying it right because it's not pilot's flying it right because it's not pilot's flying it right because it's not going to be perfect the computer's not going to be perfect the computer's not going to be perfect the computer's not controlling it and these seemed more controlling it and these seemed more controlling it and these seemed more like that not that they were imprecise like that not that they were imprecise like that not that they were imprecise but that they were even much more but that they were even much more but that they were even much more erratic than that so like it wasn't like erratic than that so like it wasn't like erratic than that so like it wasn't like a straight line in a turn it was just a straight line in a turn it was just a straight line in a turn it was just kind of like a kind of like a kind of like a you know weird drift like that in that you know weird drift like that in that you know weird drift like that in that direction you know so it wasn't direction you know so it wasn't direction you know so it wasn't controlled by a down computer or uh no controlled by a down computer or uh no controlled by a down computer or uh no no disrespect to computers so it wasn't no disrespect to computers so it wasn't no disrespect to computers so it wasn't controlled by autopilot kind of controlled by autopilot kind of controlled by autopilot kind of technology that's not the sense that i technology that's not the sense that i technology that's not the sense that i got got got so how many people have seen them in the so how many people have seen them in the so how many people have seen them in the squadron uh sort of how many times were squadron uh sort of how many times were squadron uh sort of how many times were they seen how many they seen how many they seen how many um um um were there times when there's multiple were there times when there's multiple were there times when there's multiple objects once we started seeing on the objects once we started seeing on the objects once we started seeing on the radar enough and we would get close radar enough and we would get close radar enough and we would get close enough we'd actually see them on our enough we'd actually see them on our enough we'd actually see them on our fleer as well so our fleer as well so our fleer as well so our advanced targeting advanced targeting advanced targeting uh pod uh it's essentially a infrared

uh pod uh it's essentially a infrared uh pod uh it's essentially a infrared camera that we use for targeting mostly camera that we use for targeting mostly camera that we use for targeting mostly in the air to surface environment in the air to surface environment in the air to surface environment we don't use it in the air arena it's we don't use it in the air arena it's we don't use it in the air arena it's just not that good of a tool just not that good of a tool just not that good of a tool frankly frankly frankly but but but we would see ir energy emitting from we would see ir energy emitting from we would see ir energy emitting from that location where the radar was that location where the radar was that location where the radar was dropping us off so you know the radar dropping us off so you know the radar dropping us off so you know the radar we'd lock onto the object and our we'd lock onto the object and our we'd lock onto the object and our sensors would all look there and so then sensors would all look there and so then sensors would all look there and so then we could see that it's looking at that we could see that it's looking at that we could see that it's looking at that right piece of sky but right piece of sky but right piece of sky but uh there's energy actually coming from uh there's energy actually coming from uh there's energy actually coming from there so now we start thinking that okay there so now we start thinking that okay there so now we start thinking that okay maybe not radar malfunctions maybe more maybe not radar malfunctions maybe more maybe not radar malfunctions maybe more maybe something is physically here of maybe something is physically here of maybe something is physically here of course and then people started to try to course and then people started to try to course and then people started to try to fly by and see it and at this point fly by and see it and at this point fly by and see it and at this point you know i would say maybe 80 to 90 you know i would say maybe 80 to 90 you know i would say maybe 80 to 90 percent of our squadron have probably percent of our squadron have probably percent of our squadron have probably seen one of these on the radar at this seen one of these on the radar at this seen one of these on the radar at this point everyone was aware of it point everyone was aware of it point everyone was aware of it there was small communication i think there was small communication i think there was small communication i think between squadrons of the same area that between squadrons of the same area that between squadrons of the same area that had the same radar so i knew it wasn't had the same radar so i knew it wasn't had the same radar so i knew it wasn't just our squadron for whatever strange just our squadron for whatever strange just our squadron for whatever strange reason um because they would be other reason um because they would be other reason um because they would be other squadrons would be out there and we squadrons would be out there and we squadrons would be out there and we would talk to them like hey like careful would talk to them like hey like careful would talk to them like hey like careful there's an object are you aware of that there's an object are you aware of that there's an object are you aware of that you know so like they would be aware of you know so like they would be aware of you know so like they would be aware of it it it and then of course people would want to and then of course people would want to and then of course people would want to go see what they look like right so go see what they look like right so go see what they look like right so people would try to fly by i try to fly people would try to fly by i try to fly people would try to fly by i try to fly by him i like how that's in of course by him i like how that's in of course by him i like how that's in of course of course of course of course of course you don't want to fly by it so of course you don't want to fly by it so of course you don't want to fly by it so you know you know you know there's an uh there's a argument against there's an uh there's a argument against there's an uh there's a argument against that kind of perspective that maybe the that kind of perspective that maybe the that kind of perspective that maybe the thing is dangerous so maybe we don't but thing is dangerous so maybe we don't but thing is dangerous so maybe we don't but perhaps that's part of the reason you perhaps that's part of the reason you perhaps that's part of the reason you want to fly by is to understand better want to fly by is to understand better want to fly by is to understand better what it is if it's a threat we have a what it is if it's a threat we have a what it is if it's a threat we have a lot of contact now that we did it back lot of contact now that we did it back lot of contact now that we did it back then you know and so it was still a hey then you know and so it was still a hey then you know and so it was still a hey is this a balloon is this a drone you is this a balloon is this a drone you is this a balloon is this a drone you know at a certain point and we're also know at a certain point and we're also know at a certain point and we're also aware of you know potential intelligence aware of you know potential intelligence aware of you know potential intelligence gathering operations that could be going gathering operations that could be going gathering operations that could be going on

on on we're up there flying our tactics we're we're up there flying our tactics we're we're up there flying our tactics we're emitting uh we're practicing our ew you emitting uh we're practicing our ew you emitting uh we're practicing our ew you know we're turning at particular times know we're turning at particular times know we're turning at particular times like there's stuff that can be learned like there's stuff that can be learned like there's stuff that can be learned it's not a secret and you know countries it's not a secret and you know countries it's not a secret and you know countries keep different fishing vessels and keep different fishing vessels and keep different fishing vessels and whatnot in international waters off whatnot in international waters off whatnot in international waters off there so it's not exactly a secret that there so it's not exactly a secret that there so it's not exactly a secret that uh we're being observed out there so to uh we're being observed out there so to uh we're being observed out there so to think that a foreign hospital or a think that a foreign hospital or a think that a foreign hospital or a foreign nation would want to foreign nation would want to foreign nation would want to you know somehow intercept information you know somehow intercept information you know somehow intercept information whether that's whether that's whether that's our radar signals or jamming our radar signals or jamming our radar signals or jamming capabilities to try to capabilities to try to capabilities to try to break that down or understand it better break that down or understand it better break that down or understand it better or be ready for that next fight or be ready for that next fight or be ready for that next fight i mean i mean i mean that's what that's what scares me about that's what that's what scares me about that's what that's what scares me about this scenario because this scenario because this scenario because we didn't jump right to aliens or ufos we didn't jump right to aliens or ufos we didn't jump right to aliens or ufos we thought you know this is a radar we thought you know this is a radar we thought you know this is a radar malfunction we need to be aware of it's malfunction we need to be aware of it's malfunction we need to be aware of it's a safety issue and then a safety issue and then a safety issue and then you know this could be a tactical you know this could be a tactical you know this could be a tactical problem right here because problem right here because problem right here because everything we do is based off a crypto everything we do is based off a crypto everything we do is based off a crypto and and locate you know locations and and locate you know locations and and locate you know locations everything is classified we do out there everything is classified we do out there everything is classified we do out there right and so over time if you gather right and so over time if you gather right and so over time if you gather enough data about those fights and just enough data about those fights and just enough data about those fights and just monitor them forever just like uh some monitor them forever just like uh some monitor them forever just like uh some nations uh do with other nations uh do with other nations uh do with other uh piece of technology or software um uh piece of technology or software um uh piece of technology or software um they could probably learn a line so we they could probably learn a line so we they could probably learn a line so we have to be cognitive effect and defend have to be cognitive effect and defend have to be cognitive effect and defend against it against it against it so what can you say about the so what can you say about the so what can you say about the other characteristics of these objects other characteristics of these objects other characteristics of these objects like shape like shape like shape size texture texture luminosity luminosity luminosity how else do you describe object is there how else do you describe object is there how else do you describe object is there something that could be said so you said something that could be said so you said something that could be said so you said like this detect down radar step one now

like this detect down radar step one now like this detect down radar step one now you have clear images that can give you you have clear images that can give you you have clear images that can give you a sense that it's actually a physical a sense that it's actually a physical a sense that it's actually a physical object what else can be said about those object what else can be said about those object what else can be said about those physical objects so eventually someone physical objects so eventually someone physical objects so eventually someone did see one with their own eyeballs did see one with their own eyeballs did see one with their own eyeballs multiple people and it and they saw it multiple people and it and they saw it multiple people and it and they saw it in a somewhat interesting way in a somewhat interesting way in a somewhat interesting way the object presented itself at the object presented itself at the object presented itself at the exact altitude and geographic the exact altitude and geographic the exact altitude and geographic location of the entry points into our location of the entry points into our location of the entry points into our working areas working areas working areas so we enter at a very specific point at so we enter at a very specific point at so we enter at a very specific point at a certain altitude and people leave the a certain altitude and people leave the a certain altitude and people leave the areas at the same point at a lower areas at the same point at a lower areas at the same point at a lower altitude altitude altitude probably one of the busiest pieces of probably one of the busiest pieces of probably one of the busiest pieces of sky on the eastern seaboard sky on the eastern seaboard sky on the eastern seaboard so two jets from my squadron went out so two jets from my squadron went out so two jets from my squadron went out and they went flying and they entered and they went flying and they entered and they went flying and they entered the area and when these objects went the area and when these objects went the area and when these objects went right between the aircraft so they're right between the aircraft so they're right between the aircraft so they're flying in formation and the object went flying in formation and the object went flying in formation and the object went between the aircraft they went between between the aircraft they went between between the aircraft they went between the object i think i don't think that the object i think i don't think that the object i think i don't think that the object was moving i don't think it the object was moving i don't think it the object was moving i don't think it aggressively went at them i think it was aggressively went at them i think it was aggressively went at them i think it was located still there and then they flew located still there and then they flew located still there and then they flew through it through it through it but they didn't have it on their radar but they didn't have it on their radar but they didn't have it on their radar um um um and that would and that would and that would i think the radar might have been i think the radar might have been i think the radar might have been malfunctioning i don't know that for malfunctioning i don't know that for malfunctioning i don't know that for sure i would like to look into it but my sure i would like to look into it but my sure i would like to look into it but my supposition is that if their radar was supposition is that if their radar was supposition is that if their radar was malfunctioning it would make sense that malfunctioning it would make sense that malfunctioning it would make sense that they wouldn't avoid the object that was they wouldn't avoid the object that was they wouldn't avoid the object that was there because they knew these were there because they knew these were there because they knew these were physical at that point physical at that point physical at that point um and we we would go up to these um and we we would go up to these um and we we would go up to these objects all the time time and try to see objects all the time time and try to see objects all the time time and try to see them we couldn't see them and we didn't them we couldn't see them and we didn't them we couldn't see them and we didn't know what it was um was it that were know what it was um was it that were know what it was um was it that were they just not there or being fooled was they just not there or being fooled was they just not there or being fooled was something happening were they were they something happening were they were they something happening were they were they moving dropping out to the last minute moving dropping out to the last minute moving dropping out to the last minute you know we're going by pretty quick so you know we're going by pretty quick so you know we're going by pretty quick so it's difficult to tell it's difficult to tell it's difficult to tell but perhaps if his radar wasn't working but perhaps if his radar wasn't working but perhaps if his radar wasn't working he wasn't receiving energy from the jet

he wasn't receiving energy from the jet he wasn't receiving energy from the jet and the jet of course didn't know that and the jet of course didn't know that and the jet of course didn't know that it was there and so it was there and so it was there and so whatever the case was they flew right by whatever the case was they flew right by whatever the case was they flew right by and they described it just as a dark and they described it just as a dark and they described it just as a dark gray or black cube gray or black cube gray or black cube inside a clear translucent sphere and inside a clear translucent sphere and inside a clear translucent sphere and the kind of the apex of the cube were the kind of the apex of the cube were the kind of the apex of the cube were touching the inside of that sphere that's an image that's haunting so what that's an image that's haunting so what do they think it is what did they think do they think it is what did they think do they think it is what did they think at that moment uh that they at that moment uh that they at that moment uh that they is it just this kind of cloud of is it just this kind of cloud of is it just this kind of cloud of uncertainty that that they're just uncertainty that that they're just uncertainty that that they're just describing a geometric object describing a geometric object describing a geometric object it's not on radar so it's unclear what it's not on radar so it's unclear what it's not on radar so it's unclear what it is it is it is um yeah what was um yeah what was um yeah what was uh the uh the uh the any kind of other description they've any kind of other description they've any kind of other description they've had of it in terms of had of it in terms of had of it in terms of the intuition from a pilot's perspective the intuition from a pilot's perspective the intuition from a pilot's perspective you know you have to kind of identify you know you have to kind of identify you know you have to kind of identify what a thing is what a thing is what a thing is to answer the first part they they to answer the first part they they to answer the first part they they actually canceled the flight and came actually canceled the flight and came actually canceled the flight and came back because they were you know it's back because they were you know it's back because they were you know it's like if there's one of these out here like if there's one of these out here like if there's one of these out here we're almost hitting them and it's right we're almost hitting them and it's right we're almost hitting them and it's right there then um you know perhaps we need there then um you know perhaps we need there then um you know perhaps we need to get a different jet with better radar to get a different jet with better radar to get a different jet with better radar but so they came back and they're in but so they came back and they're in but so they came back and they're in their gear and they're they're talking their gear and they're they're talking their gear and they're they're talking to the front desk and talking to skipper to the front desk and talking to skipper to the front desk and talking to skipper and like hey we almost hit one of those and like hey we almost hit one of those and like hey we almost hit one of those damn things out there and this kind of damn things out there and this kind of damn things out there and this kind of was one of those kind of slight was one of those kind of slight was one of those kind of slight watershed moments where we all were kind watershed moments where we all were kind watershed moments where we all were kind of like all right like this is a serious of like all right like this is a serious of like all right like this is a serious deal now yeah you know maybe it was a deal now yeah you know maybe it was a deal now yeah you know maybe it was a maybe we thought they were maybe we thought they were maybe we thought they were balloons or drones or malfunctions or balloons or drones or malfunctions or balloons or drones or malfunctions or maybe we thought it was fine but the end maybe we thought it was fine but the end maybe we thought it was fine but the end of the day if we're to hit one of these of the day if we're to hit one of these of the day if we're to hit one of these things then we need to you know we need things then we need to you know we need things then we need to you know we need to take care of the situation to take care of the situation to take care of the situation and that's actually when we start and that's actually when we start and that's actually when we start submitting hazard reports or hazard reps submitting hazard reports or hazard reps submitting hazard reports or hazard reps to the naval through the naval aviation

to the naval through the naval aviation to the naval through the naval aviation safety safety safety kind of communication networks and it's kind of communication networks and it's kind of communication networks and it's you know it's not like a big proactive you know it's not like a big proactive you know it's not like a big proactive thing where people can go investigate thing where people can go investigate thing where people can go investigate it's more of a data collection mechanism it's more of a data collection mechanism it's more of a data collection mechanism so that you can kind of share that so that you can kind of share that so that you can kind of share that aggregate data and make sure things are aggregate data and make sure things are aggregate data and make sure things are uh progressing uh progressing uh progressing um so it wasn't a mechanism that would um so it wasn't a mechanism that would um so it wasn't a mechanism that would result in action being taken but we were result in action being taken but we were result in action being taken but we were hoping to at least get the message out hoping to at least get the message out hoping to at least get the message out to whomever was maybe running a to whomever was maybe running a to whomever was maybe running a classified program that we were not classified program that we were not classified program that we were not aware of or something like that that hey aware of or something like that that hey aware of or something like that that hey like you could kill somebody here like like you could kill somebody here like like you could kill somebody here like you've you've grown too big for your you've you've grown too big for your you've you've grown too big for your britches here take a step back britches here take a step back britches here take a step back so that was that was our concern at that so that was that was our concern at that so that was that was our concern at that point that's kind of where we were point that's kind of where we were point that's kind of where we were thinking this was going thinking this was going thinking this was going what's the protocol for shooting at a what's the protocol for shooting at a what's the protocol for shooting at a thing thing thing was was uh was was uh was was uh was there a concern that it's a direct was there a concern that it's a direct was there a concern that it's a direct threat not just surveillance but threat not just surveillance but threat not just surveillance but a thing that could be yeah a threat at a thing that could be yeah a threat at a thing that could be yeah a threat at least from my perspective like that least from my perspective like that least from my perspective like that never really crossed into my mind i never really crossed into my mind i never really crossed into my mind i thought it was potentially an thought it was potentially an thought it was potentially an intelligence intelligence intelligence um you know failure that could be being um you know failure that could be being um you know failure that could be being watched and information gathered watched and information gathered watched and information gathered but i didn't think that it was something but i didn't think that it was something but i didn't think that it was something that would that would that would proactively engage me in a hostile proactively engage me in a hostile proactively engage me in a hostile manner it wouldn't really make sense manner it wouldn't really make sense manner it wouldn't really make sense either too either too either too it would be shocking to like have one of it would be shocking to like have one of it would be shocking to like have one of these objects take out an f-18 but these objects take out an f-18 but these objects take out an f-18 but there's no real tactical advantage other there's no real tactical advantage other there's no real tactical advantage other than fear perhaps than fear perhaps than fear perhaps psychological psychological psychological yeah i've learned a lot about yeah i've learned a lot about yeah i've learned a lot about the the the psychological warfare in ukraine this is psychological warfare in ukraine this is psychological warfare in ukraine this is a big part of the war in terms of when a big part of the war in terms of when a big part of the war in terms of when you talk about siege warfare about war you talk about siege warfare about war you talk about siege warfare about war wars that last for many years wars that last for many years wars that last for many years for many months and then perhaps could for many months and then perhaps could for many months and then perhaps could extend to years but yes

extend to years but yes extend to years but yes it didn't seem it didn't seem it didn't seem it didn't fit your conception of a it didn't fit your conception of a it didn't fit your conception of a threatening threatening threatening entity correct entity correct entity correct so looking back now from the all the so looking back now from the all the so looking back now from the all the pieces of data you've integrated pieces of data you've integrated pieces of data you've integrated you've personally added what what do you you've personally added what what do you you've personally added what what do you think it could be think it could be think it could be i don't know i don't know what it could i don't know i don't know what it could i don't know i don't know what it could be i think we've been able to categorize be i think we've been able to categorize be i think we've been able to categorize it successfully into a few buckets it successfully into a few buckets it successfully into a few buckets we've been able to say that you know we've been able to say that you know we've been able to say that you know this could be u.s technology that this could be u.s technology that this could be u.s technology that someone someone someone put in the wrong piece of sky or you put in the wrong piece of sky or you put in the wrong piece of sky or you know perhaps was developed and tested an know perhaps was developed and tested an know perhaps was developed and tested an inappropriate spot by someone that uh inappropriate spot by someone that uh inappropriate spot by someone that uh wasn't paying best practices is there uh wasn't paying best practices is there uh wasn't paying best practices is there uh sorry to interrupt is there sorry to interrupt is there sorry to interrupt is there a sort of uh modularity to the way a sort of uh modularity to the way a sort of uh modularity to the way the the military operates to where it's the the military operates to where it's the the military operates to where it's possible for one branch not to know possible for one branch not to know possible for one branch not to know about the tests of another yeah i think about the tests of another yeah i think about the tests of another yeah i think it's perfectly reasonable to think that it's perfectly reasonable to think that it's perfectly reasonable to think that that could occur right and so if we just that could occur right and so if we just that could occur right and so if we just make that assumption we can integrate make that assumption we can integrate make that assumption we can integrate that into our analysis here and just say that into our analysis here and just say that into our analysis here and just say okay but at the point we're at now you okay but at the point we're at now you okay but at the point we're at now you know we have to assume that that's not know we have to assume that that's not know we have to assume that that's not the case right with everything that's the case right with everything that's the case right with everything that's been going on and the statements have been going on and the statements have been going on and the statements have been made and the hearings been made and the hearings been made and the hearings i think that if it was a i think that if it was a i think that if it was a a a a non-communication issue um we're in big non-communication issue um we're in big non-communication issue um we're in big trouble at this point trouble at this point trouble at this point what about it being an object from what about it being an object from what about it being an object from another nation from china from russia or another nation from china from russia or another nation from china from russia or even one of our allies perhaps right even one of our allies perhaps right even one of our allies perhaps right maybe maybe maybe you know you know you know i don't think it's i don't think it's i don't think it's um controversial to say that our allies um controversial to say that our allies um controversial to say that our allies could be gathering information about us could be gathering information about us could be gathering information about us or anything of that nature but that

or anything of that nature but that or anything of that nature but that would be an extreme case but i think would be an extreme case but i think would be an extreme case but i think it's just important to say right to not it's just important to say right to not it's just important to say right to not just say russia or china and just call just say russia or china and just call just say russia or china and just call them the bad guys and assume that if them the bad guys and assume that if them the bad guys and assume that if they don't have it no one can do it um they don't have it no one can do it um they don't have it no one can do it um and so from my perspective you know and so from my perspective you know and so from my perspective you know anyone else anyone else it doesn't anyone else anyone else it doesn't anyone else anyone else it doesn't necessarily need to be a foreign power necessarily need to be a foreign power necessarily need to be a foreign power it could be a non-government entity it could be a non-government entity it could be a non-government entity perhaps although i think that's very perhaps although i think that's very perhaps although i think that's very unlikely but again these are these are unlikely but again these are these are unlikely but again these are these are things you must consider if you kind of things you must consider if you kind of things you must consider if you kind of throw everything throw everything throw everything everything other than the us under under everything other than the us under under everything other than the us under under scrutiny scrutiny scrutiny but you know from what but you know from what but you know from what has been reported and the behaviors that has been reported and the behaviors that has been reported and the behaviors that have been seen have been seen have been seen it would be it would be it would be i would expect to see remnants of that i would expect to see remnants of that i would expect to see remnants of that technology elsewhere in the economy technology elsewhere in the economy technology elsewhere in the economy there seems to be too many there seems to be too many there seems to be too many things that require things that require things that require advanced technology that would be advanced technology that would be advanced technology that would be beneficial commercially as well as in beneficial commercially as well as in beneficial commercially as well as in other military applications for it to be other military applications for it to be other military applications for it to be completely locked away by completely locked away by completely locked away by one of our competitors now i could see one of our competitors now i could see one of our competitors now i could see us perhaps locking something away if us perhaps locking something away if us perhaps locking something away if we're already in the lead and having it we're already in the lead and having it we're already in the lead and having it to to to pull out as needed but for someone pull out as needed but for someone pull out as needed but for someone that's perhaps in a power struggle and that's perhaps in a power struggle and that's perhaps in a power struggle and they're in second place they're in second place they're in second place they might be more aggressive with the they might be more aggressive with the they might be more aggressive with the development of different types of development of different types of development of different types of technology willing to accept bigger technology willing to accept bigger technology willing to accept bigger risks risks risks do you think it could be natural do you think it could be natural do you think it could be natural phenomena that we don't yet understand i phenomena that we don't yet understand i phenomena that we don't yet understand i think that there are a number of things think that there are a number of things think that there are a number of things that this is going to be right i don't that this is going to be right i don't that this is going to be right i don't think there's one thing at the end of think there's one thing at the end of think there's one thing at the end of the day but i certainly think that that the day but i certainly think that that the day but i certainly think that that is part of what some of this could be i is part of what some of this could be i is part of what some of this could be i don't think it's what we were seeing on don't think it's what we were seeing on don't think it's what we were seeing on the east coast the east coast the east coast and i don't think it is related to the and i don't think it is related to the and i don't think it is related to the roosevelt incident or i'll even go out roosevelt incident or i'll even go out roosevelt incident or i'll even go out and say the nimitz incident but what's

and say the nimitz incident but what's and say the nimitz incident but what's the roosevelt incident the roosevelt the roosevelt incident the roosevelt the roosevelt incident the roosevelt incident typically referred to as the incident typically referred to as the incident typically referred to as the gimbal gimbal gimbal and or the go fast video and then the and or the go fast video and then the and or the go fast video and then the nimitz is from uh nimitz is from uh nimitz is from uh with the david fravor has uh witnessed with the david fravor has uh witnessed with the david fravor has uh witnessed directly and spoken about directly and spoken about directly and spoken about we'll talk about that as well i'd just we'll talk about that as well i'd just we'll talk about that as well i'd just love to get your um love to get your um love to get your um your sort of uh interpretation of those your sort of uh interpretation of those your sort of uh interpretation of those incidents but incidents but incidents but yeah so in this particular case natural yeah so in this particular case natural yeah so in this particular case natural phenomena could be a part of the picture phenomena could be a part of the picture phenomena could be a part of the picture but you're saying not the whole picture but you're saying not the whole picture but you're saying not the whole picture yes yes yes yes and we can't discount it yes and we can't discount it yes and we can't discount it oh the other thing is what about the oh the other thing is what about the oh the other thing is what about the failure of failure of failure of pilot eyesight pilot eyesight pilot eyesight like like like sort of sort of sort of some deep mixture of actual direct some deep mixture of actual direct some deep mixture of actual direct vision vision vision human vision system failure human vision system failure human vision system failure and like psychology and like psychology and like psychology like like like um seeing something weird um seeing something weird um seeing something weird and then filling in the gaps and then filling in the gaps and then filling in the gaps because in order to make sense of the because in order to make sense of the because in order to make sense of the weird i've tried to expose myself to weird i've tried to expose myself to weird i've tried to expose myself to a scenarios like that that i don't a scenarios like that that i don't a scenarios like that that i don't necessarily think are right but i've necessarily think are right but i've necessarily think are right but i've explored them to see if they could have explored them to see if they could have explored them to see if they could have some truth and one example is let's some truth and one example is let's some truth and one example is let's imagine a scenario where if we're seeing imagine a scenario where if we're seeing imagine a scenario where if we're seeing these objects every day off the east these objects every day off the east these objects every day off the east coast coast coast i can imagine a technology or an i can imagine a technology or an i can imagine a technology or an operation where you had some type of operation where you had some type of operation where you had some type of traditional propulsion system operating traditional propulsion system operating traditional propulsion system operating drones in order to gather data like we drones in order to gather data like we drones in order to gather data like we had discussed had discussed had discussed and and and i could i could envision a clever enough i could i could envision a clever enough i could i could envision a clever enough adversary that could perhaps destroy or

adversary that could perhaps destroy or adversary that could perhaps destroy or somehow remove these objects and replace somehow remove these objects and replace somehow remove these objects and replace them with new objects essentially when them with new objects essentially when them with new objects essentially when we're not looking right and that we're not looking right and that we're not looking right and that accounts for the accounts for the accounts for the large uh airborne time and so i i large uh airborne time and so i i large uh airborne time and so i i explore options like that and i try to explore options like that and i try to explore options like that and i try to see you know what what evidence and see you know what what evidence and see you know what what evidence and assumptions need to be made in order to assumptions need to be made in order to assumptions need to be made in order to prove or disprove that prove or disprove that prove or disprove that and you know and you know and you know you would need so much infrastructure you would need so much infrastructure you would need so much infrastructure you know you need some you need so many you know you need some you need so many you know you need some you need so many assets and so i try to explore some of assets and so i try to explore some of assets and so i try to explore some of those fallacies and some of those those fallacies and some of those those fallacies and some of those concerns and as aviators we're trained concerns and as aviators we're trained concerns and as aviators we're trained into many uh into many uh into many uh like actual physical like eyesight and like actual physical like eyesight and like actual physical like eyesight and kind of illusion training so like at kind of illusion training so like at kind of illusion training so like at night time flying there's so many things night time flying there's so many things night time flying there's so many things that can happen flying with false that can happen flying with false that can happen flying with false horizons and so we receive hours of of horizons and so we receive hours of of horizons and so we receive hours of of training on that type of of stuff but training on that type of of stuff but training on that type of of stuff but this just falls outside the category this just falls outside the category this just falls outside the category from my perspective what was the from my perspective what was the from my perspective what was the visibility conditions when in the times visibility conditions when in the times visibility conditions when in the times when people were able to see it and then when people were able to see it and then when people were able to see it and then are we are we are we we just earlier discussed complete we just earlier discussed complete we just earlier discussed complete nighttime nighttime nighttime darkness darkness darkness um in this case was was it during the um in this case was was it during the um in this case was was it during the day it was a perfectly clear day that day it was a perfectly clear day that day it was a perfectly clear day that that particular incident yep that particular incident yep that particular incident yep in a world that's full of mystery i have in a world that's full of mystery i have in a world that's full of mystery i have to ask what do you think to ask what do you think to ask what do you think is the possibility that is the possibility that is the possibility that it's not of this earth origin it's not of this earth origin it's not of this earth origin like the term non-human intelligence in like the term non-human intelligence in like the term non-human intelligence in a sense a sense a sense because because because again again again there's so much there's a lot of there's so much there's a lot of there's so much there's a lot of assumptions in there that assumptions in there that assumptions in there that may cause us to go down the wrong roads may cause us to go down the wrong roads may cause us to go down the wrong roads it could you know these could be it could you know these could be it could you know these could be something that our weather phenomena of

something that our weather phenomena of something that our weather phenomena of earth right or something else that is earth right or something else that is earth right or something else that is just something we don't understand or just something we don't understand or just something we don't understand or can't imagine right now that's still of can't imagine right now that's still of can't imagine right now that's still of this earth um this earth um this earth um if we consider if we consider if we consider extraterrestrials or something that came extraterrestrials or something that came extraterrestrials or something that came from a physical place far away in space from a physical place far away in space from a physical place far away in space time time time you know that leads us to some detection you know that leads us to some detection you know that leads us to some detection assumptions that we would need to make assumptions that we would need to make assumptions that we would need to make and so i just try to not categorize it and so i just try to not categorize it and so i just try to not categorize it under anything and just say hey is this under anything and just say hey is this under anything and just say hey is this demonstrating intelligence demonstrating intelligence demonstrating intelligence and start from there as a single object and start from there as a single object and start from there as a single object what can we learn about it kinematically what can we learn about it kinematically what can we learn about it kinematically how it's performing what does that mean how it's performing what does that mean how it's performing what does that mean for its energy source what does that for its energy source what does that for its energy source what does that mean for the g-forces inside mean for the g-forces inside mean for the g-forces inside and then step it out a level and say and then step it out a level and say and then step it out a level and say okay how are these interacting with our okay how are these interacting with our okay how are these interacting with our fighters if they are how are they fighters if they are how are they fighters if they are how are they interacting with the weather and their interacting with the weather and their interacting with the weather and their environment how are they interacting environment how are they interacting environment how are they interacting with each other so can we look at these with each other so can we look at these with each other so can we look at these and how they're interacting perhaps as a and how they're interacting perhaps as a and how they're interacting perhaps as a swarm swarm swarm especially off the east coast where this especially off the east coast where this especially off the east coast where this is happening all the time with multiple is happening all the time with multiple is happening all the time with multiple objects right and so we might be able to objects right and so we might be able to objects right and so we might be able to determine some things about their maybe determine some things about their maybe determine some things about their maybe you know center capabilities are the you know center capabilities are the you know center capabilities are the areas of focus you know if we can areas of focus you know if we can areas of focus you know if we can determine uh how they're working in determine uh how they're working in determine uh how they're working in conjunction with each other but you know conjunction with each other but you know conjunction with each other but you know seeing one little flash of an object uh seeing one little flash of an object uh seeing one little flash of an object uh doesn't provide that type of insight doesn't provide that type of insight doesn't provide that type of insight um but we have the systems four but and um but we have the systems four but and um but we have the systems four but and it's kind of made on irony but it's it's it's kind of made on irony but it's it's it's kind of made on irony but it's it's a fact of life the reality that many of a fact of life the reality that many of a fact of life the reality that many of these well-deployed highly capable these well-deployed highly capable these well-deployed highly capable systems are held under the military systems are held under the military systems are held under the military umbrella which makes it difficult to umbrella which makes it difficult to umbrella which makes it difficult to provide that data for scientific provide that data for scientific provide that data for scientific analysis analysis analysis so there's probably a lot more data on so there's probably a lot more data on so there's probably a lot more data on these objects that's not being these objects that's not being these objects that's not being that's not made available probably even that's not made available probably even that's not made available probably even within the military for analysis i think

within the military for analysis i think within the military for analysis i think so yeah i think there's a lot of data so yeah i think there's a lot of data so yeah i think there's a lot of data that could be made available that could be made available that could be made available and you know that's one of the reasons and you know that's one of the reasons and you know that's one of the reasons why you know i've been engaged with the why you know i've been engaged with the why you know i've been engaged with the american institute of aeronautics and american institute of aeronautics and american institute of aeronautics and astronautics to build you know a large astronautics to build you know a large astronautics to build you know a large resources of cross-domain expertise so resources of cross-domain expertise so resources of cross-domain expertise so that if or when that data is available that if or when that data is available that if or when that data is available or that there's additional analysis or that there's additional analysis or that there's additional analysis needed you know we can spin up those needed you know we can spin up those needed you know we can spin up those teams and make that analysis teams and make that analysis teams and make that analysis so there was a recently a house so there was a recently a house so there was a recently a house intelligence subcommittee hearing on intelligence subcommittee hearing on intelligence subcommittee hearing on ufos that you were a part of what was ufos that you were a part of what was ufos that you were a part of what was the goal of that hearing and can you the goal of that hearing and can you the goal of that hearing and can you maybe summarize what maybe summarize what maybe summarize what you heard you heard you heard the hearings from my perspective uh the hearings from my perspective uh the hearings from my perspective uh seemed a bit disingenuous uh kind of top seemed a bit disingenuous uh kind of top seemed a bit disingenuous uh kind of top level uh i think um who was the run by i level uh i think um who was the run by i level uh i think um who was the run by i decided to interrupt like who were the decided to interrupt like who were the decided to interrupt like who were the people involved and what was the goal people involved and what was the goal people involved and what was the goal this day to go congressman andre carson this day to go congressman andre carson this day to go congressman andre carson uh did chair of the committee and he he uh did chair of the committee and he he uh did chair of the committee and he he was i think ultimately responsible for was i think ultimately responsible for was i think ultimately responsible for bringing it all together you know i bringing it all together you know i bringing it all together you know i think the intent from congress was to think the intent from congress was to think the intent from congress was to try to bring light to try to bring light to try to bring light to what has been happening with the navy what has been happening with the navy what has been happening with the navy and to help show the american people and to help show the american people and to help show the american people that um that um that um congress is taking this serious because congress is taking this serious because congress is taking this serious because something serious is happening something serious is happening something serious is happening but you know the sense i got seemed a but you know the sense i got seemed a but you know the sense i got seemed a bit disingenuous they talked around it a bit disingenuous they talked around it a bit disingenuous they talked around it a lot they you know advertised their um lot they you know advertised their um lot they you know advertised their um their love of science fiction um but their love of science fiction um but their love of science fiction um but they you know they didn't treat this i they you know they didn't treat this i they you know they didn't treat this i would say in the manner it deserved as a would say in the manner it deserved as a would say in the manner it deserved as a potential tactical threat if it's coming potential tactical threat if it's coming potential tactical threat if it's coming from a foreign power from a foreign power from a foreign power and i get it though at the same day they and i get it though at the same day they and i get it though at the same day they have very specific objectives within the have very specific objectives within the have very specific objectives within the dod right they have a very important job

dod right they have a very important job dod right they have a very important job their job isn't necessarily to do their job isn't necessarily to do their job isn't necessarily to do exploratory science for no reason exploratory science for no reason exploratory science for no reason so i i applaud and i encourage their so i i applaud and i encourage their so i i applaud and i encourage their efforts on the intelligence side to help efforts on the intelligence side to help efforts on the intelligence side to help understand this but my concern is that understand this but my concern is that understand this but my concern is that they they they play a role they're not well suited for play a role they're not well suited for play a role they're not well suited for which is is doing science and the which is is doing science and the which is is doing science and the pentagon has opened a new office to pentagon has opened a new office to pentagon has opened a new office to investigate ufos called all domain investigate ufos called all domain investigate ufos called all domain anomaly resolution office anomaly resolution office anomaly resolution office what do you think about this office do what do you think about this office do what do you think about this office do you think it can help you think it can help you think it can help alleviate the in the way which this alleviate the in the way which this alleviate the in the way which this hearing perhaps has failed hearing perhaps has failed hearing perhaps has failed to improve more the scientific rigor to improve more the scientific rigor to improve more the scientific rigor and the seriousness of investigating and the seriousness of investigating and the seriousness of investigating ufos i think that remains to be seen i ufos i think that remains to be seen i ufos i think that remains to be seen i think it's a step in the right direction think it's a step in the right direction think it's a step in the right direction but it's a step that was taken because but it's a step that was taken because but it's a step that was taken because the previous step didn't happen the previous step didn't happen the previous step didn't happen right so right so right so the aoi msg was the the aoi msg was the the aoi msg was the progeny essentially of the aaro or aero progeny essentially of the aaro or aero progeny essentially of the aaro or aero and and and you know the name was changed because you know the name was changed because you know the name was changed because nothing was happening and it was nothing was happening and it was nothing was happening and it was essentially just a confusing mess of essentially just a confusing mess of essentially just a confusing mess of words that were created to make this words that were created to make this words that were created to make this topic unpalatable topic unpalatable topic unpalatable that airborne object identification that airborne object identification that airborne object identification synchronization management group quite synchronization management group quite synchronization management group quite the mouthful the mouthful the mouthful uh i practiced that uh but the new all uh i practiced that uh but the new all uh i practiced that uh but the new all domain anomaly resolution office you domain anomaly resolution office you domain anomaly resolution office you know from my perspective at least at know from my perspective at least at know from my perspective at least at least the perspective that they're least the perspective that they're least the perspective that they're putting out they they seem to want to be putting out they they seem to want to be putting out they they seem to want to be open they put out a twitter handle open they put out a twitter handle open they put out a twitter handle they're out they're going out on twitter they're out they're going out on twitter they're out they're going out on twitter and communicating saying they want to and communicating saying they want to and communicating saying they want to keep this open keep this open keep this open um but you know that's going to run into um but you know that's going to run into um but you know that's going to run into a classification wall

a classification wall a classification wall well so uh dr sean kirkpatrick seems well so uh dr sean kirkpatrick seems well so uh dr sean kirkpatrick seems like an interesting guy like an interesting guy like an interesting guy he does yes he does yes he does yes so he he's got a so he he's got a so he he's got a um evan looked into deeply but he he um evan looked into deeply but he he um evan looked into deeply but he he seems to have sort of he's coming from seems to have sort of he's coming from seems to have sort of he's coming from like a science research perspective like like a science research perspective like like a science research perspective like uh uh background so he he might be uh uh background so he he might be uh uh background so he he might be at least in the right mindset the right background to kind of mindset the right background to kind of lead a serious investigation i think so lead a serious investigation i think so lead a serious investigation i think so i'll just say generally um you know the i'll just say generally um you know the i'll just say generally um you know the office has been receptive to aila office has been receptive to aila office has been receptive to aila reaching out in order to collaborate uh reaching out in order to collaborate uh reaching out in order to collaborate uh which has been a positive sign um also which has been a positive sign um also which has been a positive sign um also pass the same kudos to um dr spurgle and pass the same kudos to um dr spurgle and pass the same kudos to um dr spurgle and nasa's uh nasa's uh nasa's uh effort as well effort as well effort as well i i see these organizations that are i i see these organizations that are i i see these organizations that are standing up i do see them as standing up i do see them as standing up i do see them as as good faith efforts that are coming as good faith efforts that are coming as good faith efforts that are coming about about about through a lot of difficulty and through a lot of difficulty and through a lot of difficulty and negotiation most likely right and i see negotiation most likely right and i see negotiation most likely right and i see these as as a small these as as a small these as as a small door opening that if we can take door opening that if we can take door opening that if we can take advantage of can lead to advantage of can lead to advantage of can lead to a much more productive relationship a much more productive relationship a much more productive relationship between these organizations how do you between these organizations how do you between these organizations how do you put pressure on this kind of thing does put pressure on this kind of thing does put pressure on this kind of thing does it come from the civilian leadership it come from the civilian leadership it come from the civilian leadership does it come from sort of congress and does it come from sort of congress and does it come from sort of congress and presidents does it come from the public presidents does it come from the public presidents does it come from the public does the public have any power to put does the public have any power to put does the public have any power to put pressure on this pressure on this pressure on this or or or is the is the is the the giant wall of bureaucracy going to the giant wall of bureaucracy going to the giant wall of bureaucracy going to protect it against any public pressure protect it against any public pressure protect it against any public pressure what do you think i think we've been in what do you think i think we've been in what do you think i think we've been in in that latter state for a while but in that latter state for a while but in that latter state for a while but you know society seems to be a bit

you know society seems to be a bit you know society seems to be a bit different nowadays you know different nowadays you know different nowadays you know we have the ability to communicate and we have the ability to communicate and we have the ability to communicate and to group and to to form relationships in to group and to to form relationships in to group and to to form relationships in a way that haven't been able to a way that haven't been able to a way that haven't been able to be present in the past we've been able be present in the past we've been able be present in the past we've been able to to to do research for better or worse on our do research for better or worse on our do research for better or worse on our own you know in a way that hasn't been own you know in a way that hasn't been own you know in a way that hasn't been able to happen before able to happen before able to happen before and so and so and so i sense that people are a bit less i sense that people are a bit less i sense that people are a bit less willing to kind of buy the bottom line willing to kind of buy the bottom line willing to kind of buy the bottom line statement from statement from statement from those in power as they used to be back those in power as they used to be back those in power as they used to be back when they didn't have access to those when they didn't have access to those when they didn't have access to those tools tools tools and so i do think there is a massive and so i do think there is a massive and so i do think there is a massive role for the general society general role for the general society general role for the general society general populist to play to show that they are populist to play to show that they are populist to play to show that they are interested in this interested in this interested in this because it's not that i don't think the because it's not that i don't think the because it's not that i don't think the politicians or the leaders in the in the politicians or the leaders in the in the politicians or the leaders in the in the pentagon it's not that they don't like pentagon it's not that they don't like pentagon it's not that they don't like this topic necessarily or think it's this topic necessarily or think it's this topic necessarily or think it's toxic per se but they exist in a culture toxic per se but they exist in a culture toxic per se but they exist in a culture where this has been toxic and they don't where this has been toxic and they don't where this has been toxic and they don't feel comfortable talking about it and feel comfortable talking about it and feel comfortable talking about it and these are people that have spent their these are people that have spent their these are people that have spent their entire careers you know working towards entire careers you know working towards entire careers you know working towards a goal and getting to very high a goal and getting to very high a goal and getting to very high positions within government positions within government positions within government and so this is very against their nature and so this is very against their nature and so this is very against their nature to take a stance on a topic like this to take a stance on a topic like this to take a stance on a topic like this and so the fact that these are standing and so the fact that these are standing and so the fact that these are standing up up up even if they do have a small budget or even if they do have a small budget or even if they do have a small budget or if they struggled a bit at first i still if they struggled a bit at first i still if they struggled a bit at first i still think it's a massive change you know and think it's a massive change you know and think it's a massive change you know and it's a big step away from that stigma it's a big step away from that stigma it's a big step away from that stigma that has been pervading this topic for that has been pervading this topic for that has been pervading this topic for so long so long so long and you're actually part of alleviating and you're actually part of alleviating and you're actually part of alleviating the stigma for the stigma for the stigma for some somebody that's as credible as some somebody that's as credible as some somebody that's as credible as intelligent as like varied in background intelligent as like varied in background intelligent as like varied in background able to speak about these things that's able to speak about these things that's able to speak about these things that's a big risk that you took a big risk that you took a big risk that you took but it's extremely valuable because it's

but it's extremely valuable because it's but it's extremely valuable because it's alleviating the stigma i thank you for alleviating the stigma i thank you for alleviating the stigma i thank you for saying that but it didn't feel like much saying that but it didn't feel like much saying that but it didn't feel like much of a risk for me you know i didn't come of a risk for me you know i didn't come of a risk for me you know i didn't come out about aliens right or whatever i out about aliens right or whatever i out about aliens right or whatever i i had a safety problem that i started i had a safety problem that i started i had a safety problem that i started asking questions about and you know i asking questions about and you know i asking questions about and you know i went down a road as a navy trained went down a road as a navy trained went down a road as a navy trained aviation safety officer right that sent aviation safety officer right that sent aviation safety officer right that sent me to school for six weeks in pensacola me to school for six weeks in pensacola me to school for six weeks in pensacola would be a safety officer you know would be a safety officer you know would be a safety officer you know we're almost hitting these objects and we're almost hitting these objects and we're almost hitting these objects and it's not something that happened in the it's not something that happened in the it's not something that happened in the past and we want to understand it it's past and we want to understand it it's past and we want to understand it it's happening right now like these these happening right now like these these happening right now like these these occurrences are still happening aviators occurrences are still happening aviators occurrences are still happening aviators are flying right now are still flying by are flying right now are still flying by are flying right now are still flying by these things in fact these things in fact these things in fact i mentioned i was a instructor pilot i mentioned i was a instructor pilot i mentioned i was a instructor pilot i i i had a student call me about eight months had a student call me about eight months had a student call me about eight months ago or so ago or so ago or so and he's like hey sir you know i made it and he's like hey sir you know i made it and he's like hey sir you know i made it to the fleet finally to the fleet finally to the fleet finally you know i had trained him how to fly you know i had trained him how to fly you know i had trained him how to fly and then he goes to f18 he goes another and then he goes to f18 he goes another and then he goes to f18 he goes another year of training and then he gets out to year of training and then he gets out to year of training and then he gets out to his squadron on the east coast and he's his squadron on the east coast and he's his squadron on the east coast and he's flying with the senior member of uh the flying with the senior member of uh the flying with the senior member of uh the base nes oceana where the fighters fly base nes oceana where the fighters fly base nes oceana where the fighters fly out of out of out of um senior five row six and it was kind um senior five row six and it was kind um senior five row six and it was kind of a bad weather day and so they said of a bad weather day and so they said of a bad weather day and so they said hey you know if the weather's not good hey you know if the weather's not good hey you know if the weather's not good enough for us to do this dog fighting enough for us to do this dog fighting enough for us to do this dog fighting set we'll we'll go out and do a uap hunt set we'll we'll go out and do a uap hunt set we'll we'll go out and do a uap hunt you know see if we can't find anything you know see if we can't find anything you know see if we can't find anything or take a look at them you know i don't or take a look at them you know i don't or take a look at them you know i don't know if it was ingest or not but you know if it was ingest or not but you know if it was ingest or not but you know this they i actually would say it's know this they i actually would say it's know this they i actually would say it's not just because there were there were not just because there were there were not just because there were there were notices that were being briefed about notices that were being briefed about notices that were being briefed about this being a safety hazard at this point this being a safety hazard at this point this being a safety hazard at this point and so and so and so i now that i i think about it it likely i now that i i think about it it likely i now that i i think about it it likely wasn't just long story short they went wasn't just long story short they went wasn't just long story short they went flying the weather was too bad they did flying the weather was too bad they did flying the weather was too bad they did go into ufo and they physically saw one

go into ufo and they physically saw one go into ufo and they physically saw one you know and he called me up and said you know and he called me up and said you know and he called me up and said hey sir i saw a cuban sphere they're hey sir i saw a cuban sphere they're hey sir i saw a cuban sphere they're still out here you know years later and still out here you know years later and still out here you know years later and so it's almost like a generational issue so it's almost like a generational issue so it's almost like a generational issue you know for these fighter pilots at you know for these fighter pilots at you know for these fighter pilots at least on east coast but that's great least on east coast but that's great least on east coast but that's great that they can talk about it right that they can talk about it right that they can talk about it right exactly exactly they feel at least exactly exactly they feel at least exactly exactly they feel at least comfortable they have a reporting comfortable they have a reporting comfortable they have a reporting mechanism and so that was one of the mechanism and so that was one of the mechanism and so that was one of the problems that i noticed that we have a problems that i noticed that we have a problems that i noticed that we have a lot of reporting mechanisms to take care lot of reporting mechanisms to take care lot of reporting mechanisms to take care of safety issues and and even tactical of safety issues and and even tactical of safety issues and and even tactical issues when the time is right in order issues when the time is right in order issues when the time is right in order to keep track of what's going on but to keep track of what's going on but to keep track of what's going on but there's no way to communicate about this there's no way to communicate about this there's no way to communicate about this sure we could submit a hazard report but sure we could submit a hazard report but sure we could submit a hazard report but nothing's actually being investigated nothing's actually being investigated nothing's actually being investigated and if this is a tactical and if this is a tactical and if this is a tactical vulnerability or something more it vulnerability or something more it vulnerability or something more it deserves attention deserves attention deserves attention if i could ask your sort of uh if i could ask your sort of uh if i could ask your sort of uh take your opinion of the different take your opinion of the different take your opinion of the different ufo sightings ufo sightings ufo sightings that the dod has released videos on so that the dod has released videos on so that the dod has released videos on so what do you think about the tic tac ufo what do you think about the tic tac ufo what do you think about the tic tac ufo that that that david fraver and others have cited david fraver and others have cited david fraver and others have cited that's such you know truly anomalous that's such you know truly anomalous that's such you know truly anomalous experience experience experience i can't i can't i can't i can't i can't i can't do like mental models in my head to do like mental models in my head to do like mental models in my head to find potential solutions to find potential solutions to find potential solutions to discredit that right like as much as i discredit that right like as much as i discredit that right like as much as i try right just as a logical process as a try right just as a logical process as a try right just as a logical process as a practice i can't i can't pick it apart practice i can't i can't pick it apart practice i can't i can't pick it apart in in the way that we were just talking in in the way that we were just talking in in the way that we were just talking a moment ago about you know thousands of a moment ago about you know thousands of a moment ago about you know thousands of drones being like sent up in very tricky drones being like sent up in very tricky drones being like sent up in very tricky manners right i can't really bring manners right i can't really bring manners right i can't really bring myself to myself to myself to a clever solution that you know other a clever solution that you know other a clever solution that you know other than just saying the pilots are lying or than just saying the pilots are lying or than just saying the pilots are lying or is there you know and i believe you know

is there you know and i believe you know is there you know and i believe you know i i know dave fravor you know i consider i i know dave fravor you know i consider i i know dave fravor you know i consider him a friend we talk a lot him a friend we talk a lot him a friend we talk a lot i have zero zero reason to disbelieve i have zero zero reason to disbelieve i have zero zero reason to disbelieve anything he says anything he says anything he says yeah i agree with you uh yeah i agree with you uh yeah i agree with you uh but in terms of the actual ufo is there something anomalous and is there something anomalous and interesting to you about that particular interesting to you about that particular interesting to you about that particular case maybe case maybe case maybe one interesting aspect there is one interesting aspect there is one interesting aspect there is how much do i understand about the how much do i understand about the how much do i understand about the water surface and underwater aspects of water surface and underwater aspects of water surface and underwater aspects of these ufos it seems like a lot of the these ufos it seems like a lot of the these ufos it seems like a lot of the discussions about is about the movement discussions about is about the movement discussions about is about the movement of of of this particular thing that seems to be this particular thing that seems to be this particular thing that seems to be weird anomalous seems to defy physics weird anomalous seems to defy physics weird anomalous seems to defy physics but what about stuff that's happening but what about stuff that's happening but what about stuff that's happening underwater that's interesting to me underwater that's interesting to me underwater that's interesting to me if i had advanced technology i would if i had advanced technology i would if i had advanced technology i would certainly certainly certainly like to operate in part underwater like to operate in part underwater like to operate in part underwater because you can hide a lot of stuff because you can hide a lot of stuff because you can hide a lot of stuff there there there you think it would be somewhat as easy you think it would be somewhat as easy you think it would be somewhat as easy as traveling through interstellar space as traveling through interstellar space as traveling through interstellar space at least right yeah you know i wish i had a great answer for you know i wish i had a great answer for that but as an aviator that's a kind of that but as an aviator that's a kind of that but as an aviator that's a kind of a black box for us you know we don't a black box for us you know we don't a black box for us you know we don't have great what i would call cross have great what i would call cross have great what i would call cross domain tracking right i can't see domain tracking right i can't see domain tracking right i can't see something go underwater and then follow something go underwater and then follow something go underwater and then follow it under water so it's literally not it under water so it's literally not it under water so it's literally not your domain like underwater like leave your domain like underwater like leave your domain like underwater like leave that for somebody else yeah and you know that for somebody else yeah and you know that for somebody else yeah and you know i i use that terminology because it's i i use that terminology because it's i i use that terminology because it's it's kind of important right um it's kind of important right um it's kind of important right um cross-domain tracking uh is something cross-domain tracking uh is something cross-domain tracking uh is something that we haven't had to necessarily worry that we haven't had to necessarily worry that we haven't had to necessarily worry about right because airplanes operated about right because airplanes operated about right because airplanes operated in the air and in the air and in the air and submarines operated underwater and space

submarines operated underwater and space submarines operated underwater and space planes operating space right but you planes operating space right but you planes operating space right but you know there's going to be know there's going to be know there's going to be you know that's going to blur i think as you know that's going to blur i think as you know that's going to blur i think as as we move along here especially in the as we move along here especially in the as we move along here especially in the air and space regime air and space regime air and space regime and being able to perhaps transition my and being able to perhaps transition my and being able to perhaps transition my radar contact at 40 000 feet to another radar contact at 40 000 feet to another radar contact at 40 000 feet to another radar system that can track it up to 200 radar system that can track it up to 200 radar system that can track it up to 200 000 feet 000 feet 000 feet you know that might be a value and so we you know that might be a value and so we you know that might be a value and so we seem to be missing that right now seem to be missing that right now seem to be missing that right now so what about the go fast and the gimbal so what about the go fast and the gimbal so what about the go fast and the gimbal videos that you mentioned earlier well videos that you mentioned earlier well videos that you mentioned earlier well there was a like what's interesting there was a like what's interesting there was a like what's interesting there there there to you to you to you so the gimbal i'll talk about that one so the gimbal i'll talk about that one so the gimbal i'll talk about that one first i was airborne for that one um the first i was airborne for that one um the first i was airborne for that one um the person that recorded it was a good person that recorded it was a good person that recorded it was a good friend of mine friend of mine friend of mine uh but i mean both their crew i knew uh but i mean both their crew i knew uh but i mean both their crew i knew both of them but the the wizard himself both of them but the the wizard himself both of them but the the wizard himself uh very close friends went through a lot uh very close friends went through a lot uh very close friends went through a lot of her training together i went to the of her training together i went to the of her training together i went to the same fleet squadron same fleet squadron same fleet squadron he ended up transitioning to be a pilot he ended up transitioning to be a pilot he ended up transitioning to be a pilot and then came to where i was instructing and then came to where i was instructing and then came to where i was instructing so i got to struck him a bit on his so i got to struck him a bit on his so i got to struck him a bit on his transition transition transition um um um and you know the way that was was was we and you know the way that was was was we and you know the way that was was was we went out on a went out on a went out on a air-to-air training mission so uh air-to-air training mission so uh air-to-air training mission so uh simulating a air fight against our own simulating a air fight against our own simulating a air fight against our own guys they're acting like the bad guys guys they're acting like the bad guys guys they're acting like the bad guys and kind of go head-to-head against each and kind of go head-to-head against each and kind of go head-to-head against each other other other and when we fly on those missions we all and when we fly on those missions we all and when we fly on those missions we all fly out together more or less fly out together more or less fly out together more or less we set up and then we kind of a trite we set up and then we kind of a trite we set up and then we kind of a trite from the fight as we either you know run from the fight as we either you know run from the fight as we either you know run out of gas or something happens and so out of gas or something happens and so out of gas or something happens and so people usually go back onesies or people usually go back onesies or people usually go back onesies or twosies twosies twosies and so the aircrew that recorded the and so the aircrew that recorded the and so the aircrew that recorded the gimbal they were going back to the boat gimbal they were going back to the boat gimbal they were going back to the boat and we were on what's called a workup and we were on what's called a workup and we were on what's called a workup training event and so this is like a training event and so this is like a training event and so this is like a month on the boat month on the boat month on the boat where we're essentially conducting more

where we're essentially conducting more where we're essentially conducting more time operations more or less time operations more or less time operations more or less to stress ourselves out and to kind of to stress ourselves out and to kind of to stress ourselves out and to kind of do the last training block before we go do the last training block before we go do the last training block before we go on deployment essentially so it's pretty on deployment essentially so it's pretty on deployment essentially so it's pretty high stress uh they actually do send high stress uh they actually do send high stress uh they actually do send aircraft from aircraft from aircraft from like land bases to kind of try to like land bases to kind of try to like land bases to kind of try to penetrate and we're expected to go penetrate and we're expected to go penetrate and we're expected to go intercept them and so we're kind of intercept them and so we're kind of intercept them and so we're kind of practicing like we play practicing like we play practicing like we play and so and so and so he saw these objects on the radar he saw these objects on the radar he saw these objects on the radar the gimbal the gimbal the gimbal and a fleet of other aircraft or and a fleet of other aircraft or and a fleet of other aircraft or vehicles vehicles vehicles and they initially thought it was and they initially thought it was and they initially thought it was part of the training exercise that they part of the training exercise that they part of the training exercise that they were sending something in to were sending something in to were sending something in to try to penetrate the airspace try to penetrate the airspace try to penetrate the airspace and so they you know they flew over to and so they you know they flew over to and so they you know they flew over to it and as they got close enough to get it and as they got close enough to get it and as they got close enough to get on the flear on the flear on the flear uh you know i think everyone has heard uh you know i think everyone has heard uh you know i think everyone has heard their reaction um and they realize that their reaction um and they realize that their reaction um and they realize that it wasn't something they were expecting it wasn't something they were expecting it wasn't something they were expecting to see to see to see can you actually describe what's in the can you actually describe what's in the can you actually describe what's in the video what's the reaction in case they video what's the reaction in case they video what's the reaction in case they haven't seen it yeah a lot of swearing haven't seen it yeah a lot of swearing haven't seen it yeah a lot of swearing uh but so what you see on the flear uh but so what you see on the flear uh but so what you see on the flear footage is a footage is a footage is a black or white depending on when you black or white depending on when you black or white depending on when you look at it object that's somewhat shaped look at it object that's somewhat shaped look at it object that's somewhat shaped like a gimbal it appears almost as if like a gimbal it appears almost as if like a gimbal it appears almost as if someone put two plates together someone put two plates together someone put two plates together and then there seems to be almost like a and then there seems to be almost like a and then there seems to be almost like a small funnel of ir energy that's at the small funnel of ir energy that's at the small funnel of ir energy that's at the top of the bottom of those plates in a top of the bottom of those plates in a top of the bottom of those plates in a sense so almost as if sense so almost as if sense so almost as if you know there's a stick going in you know there's a stick going in you know there's a stick going in between two plates but not that between two plates but not that between two plates but not that pronounced right so there's an energy pronounced right so there's an energy pronounced right so there's an energy field that kind of went to a funnel on field that kind of went to a funnel on field that kind of went to a funnel on the top and the bottom at least that's the top and the bottom at least that's the top and the bottom at least that's how i was being portrayed on the fleer how i was being portrayed on the fleer how i was being portrayed on the fleer there's a lot of conversation about that there's a lot of conversation about that there's a lot of conversation about that being glare things that nature but it being glare things that nature but it being glare things that nature but it was actually a very tight ir image it was actually a very tight ir image it was actually a very tight ir image it just was non-descript shape just was non-descript shape just was non-descript shape which was interesting typically we would

which was interesting typically we would which was interesting typically we would see the skin of the aircraft we can see see the skin of the aircraft we can see see the skin of the aircraft we can see the flames coming out of the exhaust the flames coming out of the exhaust the flames coming out of the exhaust especially at those ranges especially at those ranges especially at those ranges um but and there was no flames or um but and there was no flames or um but and there was no flames or there's no exhaust here there was no there's no exhaust here there was no there's no exhaust here there was no exhaust there was no you know there was exhaust there was no you know there was exhaust there was no you know there was no no no outgassing of repellent in any manner outgassing of repellent in any manner outgassing of repellent in any manner right it was just an object that had right it was just an object that had right it was just an object that had nothing emitting from it that was nothing emitting from it that was nothing emitting from it that was stationary in the sky we're not stationary in the sky we're not stationary in the sky we're not stationary but it was it was um moving stationary but it was it was um moving stationary but it was it was um moving along a path right it wasn't falling out along a path right it wasn't falling out along a path right it wasn't falling out of the sky of the sky of the sky and it continued along if we were to and it continued along if we were to and it continued along if we were to consider it from a god's eye view again consider it from a god's eye view again consider it from a god's eye view again on the sa page it continued along in a on the sa page it continued along in a on the sa page it continued along in a path path path and from the perspective that top-down and from the perspective that top-down and from the perspective that top-down view view view it just went another direction so no um it just went another direction so no um it just went another direction so no um just an instantaneous direction change just an instantaneous direction change just an instantaneous direction change from that perspective from that perspective from that perspective you also hear them you know very you also hear them you know very you also hear them you know very excitedly talking on the tapes about um excitedly talking on the tapes about um excitedly talking on the tapes about um you know whatever the heck this thing is you know whatever the heck this thing is you know whatever the heck this thing is and look at the essay there's a whole and look at the essay there's a whole and look at the essay there's a whole formation of them formation of them formation of them and so the essay is a situational and so the essay is a situational and so the essay is a situational awareness page and again it's a large awareness page and again it's a large awareness page and again it's a large display that gives that god's eye view display that gives that god's eye view display that gives that god's eye view of all the radar contacts so the video of all the radar contacts so the video of all the radar contacts so the video is actually showing just one is actually showing just one is actually showing just one and then they're speaking about many of and then they're speaking about many of and then they're speaking about many of them correct on the unless the essay them correct on the unless the essay them correct on the unless the essay display correct and what they display correct and what they display correct and what they essentially saw was if we were to essentially saw was if we were to essentially saw was if we were to consider above the object north so kind consider above the object north so kind consider above the object north so kind of offset to the north of the object of offset to the north of the object of offset to the north of the object there was a formation of about somewhere there was a formation of about somewhere there was a formation of about somewhere between four and six of these objects in between four and six of these objects in between four and six of these objects in a rough wedge formation you know so kind a rough wedge formation you know so kind a rough wedge formation you know so kind of side by side like this of side by side like this of side by side like this and again not in a like autopilot type and again not in a like autopilot type and again not in a like autopilot type manner where it was very stiff it was manner where it was very stiff it was manner where it was very stiff it was very kind of very kind of very kind of non-mechanical the flight mechanics

non-mechanical the flight mechanics non-mechanical the flight mechanics again and these objects were in that again and these objects were in that again and these objects were in that formation and they were going along and formation and they were going along and formation and they were going along and then they turned then they turned then they turned pretty sharply but they still had a pretty sharply but they still had a pretty sharply but they still had a radius of turn and then went back in the radius of turn and then went back in the radius of turn and then went back in the opposite direction and during that turn opposite direction and during that turn opposite direction and during that turn it was they were kind of like all over it was they were kind of like all over it was they were kind of like all over the place like it wasn't tight they the place like it wasn't tight they the place like it wasn't tight they weren't even like super i they weren't weren't even like super i they weren't weren't even like super i they weren't flying in a way i would expect them to flying in a way i would expect them to flying in a way i would expect them to be flying in relation to a flight lead be flying in relation to a flight lead be flying in relation to a flight lead they were flying as if they were flying they were flying as if they were flying they were flying as if they were flying close to each other but not in formation close to each other but not in formation close to each other but not in formation which was kind of strange right which was kind of strange right which was kind of strange right um um um and then when they rolled out they kind and then when they rolled out they kind and then when they rolled out they kind of tightened backed up like so when they of tightened backed up like so when they of tightened backed up like so when they basically they started that turn and basically they started that turn and basically they started that turn and then 180 degrees out essentially they then 180 degrees out essentially they then 180 degrees out essentially they started flowing in the opposite started flowing in the opposite started flowing in the opposite direction and kind of got back in that direction and kind of got back in that direction and kind of got back in that formation and while that was happening formation and while that was happening formation and while that was happening the gimbal object was proceeding we'll the gimbal object was proceeding we'll the gimbal object was proceeding we'll say left to right say left to right say left to right and as as those uh the formation kind of and as as those uh the formation kind of and as as those uh the formation kind of turned up to the north and was just turned up to the north and was just turned up to the north and was just passing back it the gimbal just kind of passing back it the gimbal just kind of passing back it the gimbal just kind of went back in the opposite direction so went back in the opposite direction so went back in the opposite direction so to follow it back in that direction and in the in the flare itself you know and in the in the flare itself you know you see the object uh changes you see the object uh changes you see the object uh changes orientation quite a bit so you see it um orientation quite a bit so you see it um orientation quite a bit so you see it um more or less level maybe candid about 45 more or less level maybe candid about 45 more or less level maybe candid about 45 degrees degrees degrees and then you see it kind of moving and then you see it kind of moving and then you see it kind of moving around like this almost as if it was a around like this almost as if it was a around like this almost as if it was a gimbal i've come to learn after some you know i've come to learn after some you know having seen some research online and having seen some research online and having seen some research online and people really looking into this that people really looking into this that people really looking into this that it seemed that the object actually it seemed that the object actually it seemed that the object actually climbed during that maneuver and so the climbed during that maneuver and so the climbed during that maneuver and so the reason it looked like it turned reason it looked like it turned reason it looked like it turned immediately is because it turned like immediately is because it turned like immediately is because it turned like this it turned uh in a vertical fashion this it turned uh in a vertical fashion this it turned uh in a vertical fashion like that which was pretty interesting like that which was pretty interesting like that which was pretty interesting that's kind of like another example of a that's kind of like another example of a that's kind of like another example of a flight mechanics that we don't normally

flight mechanics that we don't normally flight mechanics that we don't normally operate because we don't change our operate because we don't change our operate because we don't change our directions by maneuvering in the directions by maneuvering in the directions by maneuvering in the vertical if we can help it it's vertical if we can help it it's vertical if we can help it it's you're just killing the fuel you know you're just killing the fuel you know you're just killing the fuel you know and so if you're like a surveillance and so if you're like a surveillance and so if you're like a surveillance platform looking to spend as much time platform looking to spend as much time platform looking to spend as much time around something you're not gonna you around something you're not gonna you around something you're not gonna you know climb know climb know climb 500 feet every time you make a turn 500 feet every time you make a turn 500 feet every time you make a turn unless you're unless you're unless you're tom cruise unless your tom cruise tom cruise unless your tom cruise tom cruise unless your tom cruise naturally naturally naturally okay so is that one of the more okay so is that one of the more okay so is that one of the more impressive flight mechanics you've seen impressive flight mechanics you've seen impressive flight mechanics you've seen in in the vid in video forms or not the in in the vid in video forms or not the in in the vid in video forms or not the direct direct direct eyesight reports but like in terms of eyesight reports but like in terms of eyesight reports but like in terms of video evidence that we have i think so video evidence that we have i think so video evidence that we have i think so we we were seeing a lot of these but we we we were seeing a lot of these but we we we were seeing a lot of these but we weren't just going on recording them all weren't just going on recording them all weren't just going on recording them all day we we just kind of put them in that day we we just kind of put them in that day we we just kind of put them in that safety bucket be like all right there's safety bucket be like all right there's safety bucket be like all right there's objects over there we're just not going objects over there we're just not going objects over there we're just not going to go near it you know and so we weren't to go near it you know and so we weren't to go near it you know and so we weren't putting our sensors on them that much so putting our sensors on them that much so putting our sensors on them that much so we were gathering the data kind of we were gathering the data kind of we were gathering the data kind of secondarily but we weren't primarily secondarily but we weren't primarily secondarily but we weren't primarily focusing on it to see all the details so focusing on it to see all the details so focusing on it to see all the details so that's so fascinating because you have a that's so fascinating because you have a that's so fascinating because you have a busy day you have a lot to do all right busy day you have a lot to do all right busy day you have a lot to do all right well there's some weird stuff going on well there's some weird stuff going on well there's some weird stuff going on there we're just not gonna go there and there we're just not gonna go there and there we're just not gonna go there and that says something about sort of the that says something about sort of the that says something about sort of the um about human nature about the the way um about human nature about the the way um about human nature about the the way that bureaucracies function the way the that bureaucracies function the way the that bureaucracies function the way the military functions it fills up your day military functions it fills up your day military functions it fills up your day with busy important things and you don't with busy important things and you don't with busy important things and you don't get to um i mean that is something that get to um i mean that is something that get to um i mean that is something that i'm i'm i'm in a sort of absurd way worried about in a sort of absurd way worried about in a sort of absurd way worried about which is like we fill our days which is like we fill our days which is like we fill our days with so much busyness with so much busyness with so much busyness then when truly beautiful things happen then when truly beautiful things happen then when truly beautiful things happen whatever they are truly anomalous things whatever they are truly anomalous things whatever they are truly anomalous things we just won't pay attention

we just won't pay attention we just won't pay attention because they don't fit our busy schedule because they don't fit our busy schedule because they don't fit our busy schedule beautiful i think that's right on the beautiful i think that's right on the beautiful i think that's right on the nose nose nose and it's on my nose because you know i and it's on my nose because you know i and it's on my nose because you know i didn't give this topic the attention it didn't give this topic the attention it didn't give this topic the attention it deserved until i left right until i left deserved until i left right until i left deserved until i left right until i left and i went to and i went to and i went to be an instructor pilot where be an instructor pilot where be an instructor pilot where i had more time you know i had more i had more time you know i had more i had more time you know i had more downtime to kind of process and think downtime to kind of process and think downtime to kind of process and think and get out of exactly what you just and get out of exactly what you just and get out of exactly what you just described and that's kind of what broke described and that's kind of what broke described and that's kind of what broke me out of it and got me thinking more me out of it and got me thinking more me out of it and got me thinking more about it why do you think the dod about it why do you think the dod about it why do you think the dod released these videos released these videos released these videos it's a great question it's a great question it's a great question did the dod release it or they kind of did the dod release it or they kind of did the dod release it or they kind of get out on their own in some sense so i get out on their own in some sense so i get out on their own in some sense so i i don't know they answer that question i don't know they answer that question i don't know they answer that question but my understanding of the situation is but my understanding of the situation is but my understanding of the situation is that the dod that the dod that the dod talked about them so much because talked about them so much because talked about them so much because they're already out there in a sense and they're already out there in a sense and they're already out there in a sense and so so so you know they could they had a choice you know they could they had a choice you know they could they had a choice where they could have just straight up where they could have just straight up where they could have just straight up lied and said it wasn't theirs or it was lied and said it wasn't theirs or it was lied and said it wasn't theirs or it was fake but uh again i think our culture fake but uh again i think our culture fake but uh again i think our culture now is too open and their information now is too open and their information now is too open and their information moves too freely to to do things like moves too freely to to do things like moves too freely to to do things like that and it kind of left them in a that and it kind of left them in a that and it kind of left them in a pickle that they had to respond to pickle that they had to respond to pickle that they had to respond to so so so what was the role of pentagon's advanced what was the role of pentagon's advanced what was the role of pentagon's advanced aerospace threat intelligence program aerospace threat intelligence program aerospace threat intelligence program atip from your perspective from what you atip from your perspective from what you atip from your perspective from what you know maybe your intuition is a tip a know maybe your intuition is a tip a know maybe your intuition is a tip a real thing that existed i was in a real thing that existed i was in a real thing that existed i was in a position as an aviator that never would position as an aviator that never would position as an aviator that never would have exposed me to anything like that have exposed me to anything like that have exposed me to anything like that but i was curious about what people knew but i was curious about what people knew but i was curious about what people knew and i i think in my mind maybe hoped or and i i think in my mind maybe hoped or and i i think in my mind maybe hoped or you know hope someone was looking into you know hope someone was looking into you know hope someone was looking into this in some sense but this in some sense but this in some sense but on the day that gimbal was recorded i on the day that gimbal was recorded i on the day that gimbal was recorded i heard that they caught something extra heard that they caught something extra heard that they caught something extra interesting on the flea

interesting on the flea interesting on the flea and i went to the intel deep brief space to go see the the film and you know to go see the the film and you know everyone's gathered around watching it everyone's gathered around watching it everyone's gathered around watching it very interesting and i heard the admiral very interesting and i heard the admiral very interesting and i heard the admiral was coming down and so i was like i'm was coming down and so i was like i'm was coming down and so i was like i'm going to hang out back you know quietly going to hang out back you know quietly going to hang out back you know quietly my own business and see i just want to my own business and see i just want to my own business and see i just want to see his reaction try to read it to see see his reaction try to read it to see see his reaction try to read it to see if this is brand new or if it is if this is brand new or if it is if this is brand new or if it is something that they've been dealing with something that they've been dealing with something that they've been dealing with you know you know you know and you know he came in and he watched a and you know he came in and he watched a and you know he came in and he watched a video for like five or six seconds and video for like five or six seconds and video for like five or six seconds and went went went and like turned around and walked out and like turned around and walked out and like turned around and walked out and you know i was like he's definitely and you know i was like he's definitely and you know i was like he's definitely seen these before there's no way that seen these before there's no way that seen these before there's no way that you only watch that for a few seconds you only watch that for a few seconds you only watch that for a few seconds and don't have more interest and don't have more interest and don't have more interest it was you know too bizarre it was you know too bizarre it was you know too bizarre so so so kind of going back does the office exist kind of going back does the office exist kind of going back does the office exist well you know i've heard that though the well you know i've heard that though the well you know i've heard that though the admiral admiral admiral essentially reported back to the essentially reported back to the essentially reported back to the pentagon about that that pentagon about that that pentagon about that that case case case real time essentially after he left real time essentially after he left real time essentially after he left right so he basically went back and i right so he basically went back and i right so he basically went back and i was totally reported that to either atep was totally reported that to either atep was totally reported that to either atep directly or to other you know somehow directly or to other you know somehow directly or to other you know somehow the information got there so from my the information got there so from my the information got there so from my perspective and from what i've perspective and from what i've perspective and from what i've experienced experienced experienced it seems like yes it was a thing but you it seems like yes it was a thing but you it seems like yes it was a thing but you know as an aviator i wouldn't know know as an aviator i wouldn't know know as an aviator i wouldn't know either way right that's just my either way right that's just my either way right that's just my experience from what happened but it experience from what happened but it experience from what happened but it seems like there's somewhere seems like there's somewhere seems like there's somewhere to report to to report to to report to at the time it seemed like there was at at the time it seemed like there was at at the time it seemed like there was at least some place to complain to it's not least some place to complain to it's not least some place to complain to it's not report to report to report to let me ask you about sort of um people let me ask you about sort of um people let me ask you about sort of um people that are taking a serious look at at the that are taking a serious look at at the that are taking a serious look at at the videos and just the different ufo videos and just the different ufo videos and just the different ufo sighting reports sighting reports sighting reports uh so there's a there's a person named uh so there's a there's a person named uh so there's a there's a person named west who uh is a skeptic and tries to west who uh is a skeptic and tries to west who uh is a skeptic and tries to take a skeptical view on every single

take a skeptical view on every single take a skeptical view on every single piece of evidence on these ufo sightings piece of evidence on these ufo sightings piece of evidence on these ufo sightings uh what do you think about his analysis uh what do you think about his analysis uh what do you think about his analysis he tries to he tries to he tries to analyze in a way that debunks some of analyze in a way that debunks some of analyze in a way that debunks some of these videos these videos these videos and assign probabilities to their and assign probabilities to their and assign probabilities to their explanations sort of leaning towards explanations sort of leaning towards explanations sort of leaning towards things that uh things that uh things that uh give a very low probability to give a very low probability to give a very low probability to um um um alien extraterrestrial type of alien extraterrestrial type of alien extraterrestrial type of explanations for these ufos what do you explanations for these ufos what do you explanations for these ufos what do you think about think about think about his approach to these uh analysis well his approach to these uh analysis well his approach to these uh analysis well two parts to his approach one uh i two parts to his approach one uh i two parts to his approach one uh i commend him for all the good work and commend him for all the good work and commend him for all the good work and effort he put into it um i've seen him effort he put into it um i've seen him effort he put into it um i've seen him build some models and things of that build some models and things of that build some models and things of that nature nature nature and so i think that's something that's and so i think that's something that's and so i think that's something that's absolutely needed in this environment no absolutely needed in this environment no absolutely needed in this environment no one's asking anyone to believe anyone one's asking anyone to believe anyone one's asking anyone to believe anyone here right uh trust but verify should here right uh trust but verify should here right uh trust but verify should certainly be the mantra certainly be the mantra certainly be the mantra but where i have uh you know a but where i have uh you know a but where i have uh you know a disagreement with his approach is that disagreement with his approach is that disagreement with his approach is that he's approaching from you know from a he's approaching from you know from a he's approaching from you know from a skeptic or from a debunker standpoint skeptic or from a debunker standpoint skeptic or from a debunker standpoint and you know from my perspective not not and you know from my perspective not not and you know from my perspective not not speaking for everyone but um when i hear speaking for everyone but um when i hear speaking for everyone but um when i hear that that tells me that you're driving that that tells me that you're driving that that tells me that you're driving towards a particular conclusion towards a particular conclusion towards a particular conclusion um which has been a very safe um which has been a very safe um which has been a very safe process for the past x years right it's process for the past x years right it's process for the past x years right it's been it's been like a very safe business been it's been like a very safe business been it's been like a very safe business to be in to tell people that they to be in to tell people that they to be in to tell people that they haven't seen aliens but uh times have haven't seen aliens but uh times have haven't seen aliens but uh times have changed a little bit and changed a little bit and changed a little bit and the tactics i've seen to try to retain the tactics i've seen to try to retain the tactics i've seen to try to retain that that that view on reality view on reality view on reality um has included things such as um has included things such as um has included things such as completely dismissing what the air crew completely dismissing what the air crew completely dismissing what the air crew are saying um and i think that is a

are saying um and i think that is a are saying um and i think that is a fallacy to think that we have to take fallacy to think that we have to take fallacy to think that we have to take the human outside of that analysis so the human outside of that analysis so the human outside of that analysis so those are the two things i disagree with those are the two things i disagree with those are the two things i disagree with when you uh put the night vision on and when you uh put the night vision on and when you uh put the night vision on and you look at the stars and you look out you look at the stars and you look out you look at the stars and you look out there and in the vast cosmos only a there and in the vast cosmos only a there and in the vast cosmos only a small fraction of which we can see small fraction of which we can see small fraction of which we can see um um um how many intelligent alien civilizations how many intelligent alien civilizations how many intelligent alien civilizations do you think are out there do you think do you think are out there do you think do you think are out there do you think about this kind of stuff i do about this kind of stuff i do about this kind of stuff i do you know i'm i'm of the theory that we you know i'm i'm of the theory that we you know i'm i'm of the theory that we are not the only people out there i are not the only people out there i are not the only people out there i think it's it's it would be a think it's it's it would be a think it's it's it would be a statistically silly comment to assume we statistically silly comment to assume we statistically silly comment to assume we are although i get that we are the only are although i get that we are the only are although i get that we are the only data point that we currently have data point that we currently have data point that we currently have although although although i'm willing to jump over that fence and i'm willing to jump over that fence and i'm willing to jump over that fence and say that yes there most likely is say that yes there most likely is say that yes there most likely is intelligent life elsewhere uh although intelligent life elsewhere uh although intelligent life elsewhere uh although i'll concede that it is a possibility we i'll concede that it is a possibility we i'll concede that it is a possibility we are early or it could be limited or it are early or it could be limited or it are early or it could be limited or it could be could be could be in a manner that we don't recognize or in a manner that we don't recognize or in a manner that we don't recognize or can really understand can really understand can really understand i i spend so much time thinking about i i spend so much time thinking about i i spend so much time thinking about how we anthropomorphize things on this how we anthropomorphize things on this how we anthropomorphize things on this ufo topic and we've done it to ourselves ufo topic and we've done it to ourselves ufo topic and we've done it to ourselves with media in a sense right we've with media in a sense right we've with media in a sense right we've trained ourselves what to think about uh trained ourselves what to think about uh trained ourselves what to think about uh what we think is true or what this would what we think is true or what this would what we think is true or what this would be like be like be like and by doing so i think we're closing and by doing so i think we're closing and by doing so i think we're closing ourselves off to a lot of what the ourselves off to a lot of what the ourselves off to a lot of what the possibilities could be and the things possibilities could be and the things possibilities could be and the things that we could miss that we could miss that we could miss you beautifully put you beautifully put you beautifully put that the thing that drew you to fighter that the thing that drew you to fighter that the thing that drew you to fighter jets is the technology so if you were to jets is the technology so if you were to jets is the technology so if you were to think think think to imagine from an alien perspective to imagine from an alien perspective to imagine from an alien perspective what kind of technologies would we first what kind of technologies would we first what kind of technologies would we first encounter as human beings encounter as human beings encounter as human beings if we were to meet another alien

if we were to meet another alien if we were to meet another alien civilization civilization civilization in the next few centuries in the next few centuries in the next few centuries what kind of thing would we see so what kind of thing would we see so what kind of thing would we see so you're now at the cutting edge and you you're now at the cutting edge and you you're now at the cutting edge and you see the quick progress that's happening see the quick progress that's happening see the quick progress that's happening that was happening throughout the 20th that was happening throughout the 20th that was happening throughout the 20th century that's happening now with century that's happening now with century that's happening now with greater degrees of autonomy with robots greater degrees of autonomy with robots greater degrees of autonomy with robots and that kind of stuff what do you think and that kind of stuff what do you think and that kind of stuff what do you think we will encounter we will encounter we will encounter i think we're gonna see uh the ability i think we're gonna see uh the ability i think we're gonna see uh the ability to manipulate matter like we used to to manipulate matter like we used to to manipulate matter like we used to manipulate information like i think manipulate information like i think manipulate information like i think that's what um whether that means that's what um whether that means that's what um whether that means being able to pop something on the table being able to pop something on the table being able to pop something on the table that didn't exist or to that didn't exist or to that didn't exist or to influence a chemical reaction somewhere influence a chemical reaction somewhere influence a chemical reaction somewhere but being able to manipulate and but being able to manipulate and but being able to manipulate and treat matter as if it was information treat matter as if it was information treat matter as if it was information and so being able to design specific and so being able to design specific and so being able to design specific materials being able to materials being able to materials being able to move past a lot of the barriers that move past a lot of the barriers that move past a lot of the barriers that seem to limit our progress with things seem to limit our progress with things seem to limit our progress with things such as miniaturized fusion or even just such as miniaturized fusion or even just such as miniaturized fusion or even just fusion in general fusion in general fusion in general is you know a lot of it is is matter is you know a lot of it is is matter is you know a lot of it is is matter based as material based and our ability based as material based and our ability based as material based and our ability to not manipulate we can only discover manipulate we can only discover materials in a sense and so i think that materials in a sense and so i think that materials in a sense and so i think that a complete mastery of the physical a complete mastery of the physical a complete mastery of the physical reality would be one of the key traits reality would be one of the key traits reality would be one of the key traits of a very intelligent species well of a very intelligent species well of a very intelligent species well you're actually working on some maybe you're actually working on some maybe you're actually working on some maybe you can correct me but sort of quantum you can correct me but sort of quantum you can correct me but sort of quantum mechanical simulation to understand mechanical simulation to understand mechanical simulation to understand materials materials materials so is that do you see sort of the the so is that do you see sort of the the so is that do you see sort of the the early steps that we're doing on quantum early steps that we're doing on quantum early steps that we're doing on quantum computing side computing side computing side to to to start to simulate to deeper understand start to simulate to deeper understand start to simulate to deeper understand materials but maybe to engineer to mess materials but maybe to engineer to mess materials but maybe to engineer to mess with materials at the at the very low

with materials at the at the very low with materials at the at the very low level that aliens would be able to do level that aliens would be able to do level that aliens would be able to do and hopefully humans would be able to do and hopefully humans would be able to do and hopefully humans would be able to do soon soon soon yeah i think that's you know so if we yeah i think that's you know so if we yeah i think that's you know so if we think about think about think about how what materials are made of it's just how what materials are made of it's just how what materials are made of it's just a collection of atoms but each one of a collection of atoms but each one of a collection of atoms but each one of those atoms has a lot of data associated those atoms has a lot of data associated those atoms has a lot of data associated with it so if we want to kind of with it so if we want to kind of with it so if we want to kind of calculate how they interact with each calculate how they interact with each calculate how they interact with each other other other it requires a massive amount of it requires a massive amount of it requires a massive amount of computational resources so much so that computational resources so much so that computational resources so much so that it can't be done in a lot of cases with it can't be done in a lot of cases with it can't be done in a lot of cases with classical computers and that's where classical computers and that's where classical computers and that's where quantum computers come in quantum computers come in quantum computers come in although we don't have a perfectly although we don't have a perfectly although we don't have a perfectly functioning quantum computer at this functioning quantum computer at this functioning quantum computer at this point point point one of the things that we're working at one of the things that we're working at one of the things that we're working at at quantum general materials is to at quantum general materials is to at quantum general materials is to essentially bridge that gap between what essentially bridge that gap between what essentially bridge that gap between what a classical computer can do as far as a classical computer can do as far as a classical computer can do as far as simulating materials and of course what simulating materials and of course what simulating materials and of course what a fully functioning quantum computer a fully functioning quantum computer a fully functioning quantum computer would mean for being able to design would mean for being able to design would mean for being able to design materials and so you know having the materials and so you know having the materials and so you know having the ability to study matter at a very ability to study matter at a very ability to study matter at a very fundamental level and unleashing fundamental level and unleashing fundamental level and unleashing artificial intelligence and machine artificial intelligence and machine artificial intelligence and machine learning on that problem learning on that problem learning on that problem i think is you know in a sense you know i think is you know in a sense you know i think is you know in a sense you know alien in a way that we're able to alien in a way that we're able to alien in a way that we're able to advance our science using you know a advance our science using you know a advance our science using you know a process that we may not fully understand process that we may not fully understand process that we may not fully understand with a perhaps a non-human based with a perhaps a non-human based with a perhaps a non-human based intelligence in some sense and so we may intelligence in some sense and so we may intelligence in some sense and so we may find patterns in the the processes right find patterns in the the processes right find patterns in the the processes right how does our machine learning output you how does our machine learning output you how does our machine learning output you know can we we match behaviors with know can we we match behaviors with know can we we match behaviors with um what we're observing with what maybe um what we're observing with what maybe um what we're observing with what maybe a machine learning element with output a machine learning element with output a machine learning element with output right can we try to classify the right can we try to classify the right can we try to classify the intelligence in that manner perhaps intelligence in that manner perhaps intelligence in that manner perhaps um and so you know at gen mads we're um and so you know at gen mads we're um and so you know at gen mads we're looking at these materials looking at these materials looking at these materials we're considering what these algorithms we're considering what these algorithms we're considering what these algorithms could have used for later on um could have used for later on um could have used for later on um could we perhaps reverse the process and could we perhaps reverse the process and could we perhaps reverse the process and determine what a unique or anomalous

determine what a unique or anomalous determine what a unique or anomalous material what type of properties it material what type of properties it material what type of properties it potentially could have potentially could have potentially could have and you said gen matt right and you said gen matt right and you said gen matt right what's uh what is jen matt gemnet is a what's uh what is jen matt gemnet is a what's uh what is jen matt gemnet is a quantum gender of material so uh it's quantum gender of material so uh it's quantum gender of material so uh it's the company i work for the company i work for the company i work for we essentially we essentially we essentially are working on a couple of verticals one are working on a couple of verticals one are working on a couple of verticals one of them is our quantum chemistry work of them is our quantum chemistry work of them is our quantum chemistry work we're essentially we're bridging the gap we're essentially we're bridging the gap we're essentially we're bridging the gap between essentially physics and between essentially physics and between essentially physics and chemistry uh we're working uh on those chemistry uh we're working uh on those chemistry uh we're working uh on those problems and and again implementing problems and and again implementing problems and and again implementing artificial intelligence machine learning artificial intelligence machine learning artificial intelligence machine learning into that process so that we can design into that process so that we can design into that process so that we can design those materials from the ground up those materials from the ground up those materials from the ground up additionally additionally additionally we are what we consider a vertically we are what we consider a vertically we are what we consider a vertically integrated material science company integrated material science company integrated material science company which means we can generate our our own which means we can generate our our own which means we can generate our our own data and so data and so data and so um um um within the next quarter coming up we we within the next quarter coming up we we within the next quarter coming up we we are launching a satellite in the space are launching a satellite in the space are launching a satellite in the space they'll have a fairly advanced they'll have a fairly advanced they'll have a fairly advanced hyperspectral sensor in there which is hyperspectral sensor in there which is hyperspectral sensor in there which is intended to be the first launch intended to be the first launch intended to be the first launch uh that will help us uh that will help us uh that will help us detect different types of materials uh detect different types of materials uh detect different types of materials uh using our advanced knowledge of uh using our advanced knowledge of uh using our advanced knowledge of uh quantum chemistry right we're gonna be quantum chemistry right we're gonna be quantum chemistry right we're gonna be leveraging that experience in order to leveraging that experience in order to leveraging that experience in order to better analyze that data oh interesting better analyze that data oh interesting better analyze that data oh interesting so uh materials that are strange so uh materials that are strange so uh materials that are strange or novel or novel or novel out there in space not necessarily but out there in space not necessarily but out there in space not necessarily but we'll be looking back at earth to be we'll be looking back at earth to be we'll be looking back at earth to be able to detect deposits on earth god i able to detect deposits on earth god i able to detect deposits on earth god i got it getting the greater perspective got it getting the greater perspective got it getting the greater perspective for mountain space to do analysis of for mountain space to do analysis of for mountain space to do analysis of different materials correct interesting different materials correct interesting different materials correct interesting yeah i was really impressed by the yeah i was really impressed by the yeah i was really impressed by the deep mine i got to hang out deep deep mine i got to hang out deep deep mine i got to hang out deep deepmind recently and they really deepmind recently and they really deepmind recently and they really impressed me the the possibility of the

impressed me the the possibility of the impressed me the the possibility of the application as you're saying of machine application as you're saying of machine application as you're saying of machine learning in the context of quantum learning in the context of quantum learning in the context of quantum mechanical simulation for materials so mechanical simulation for materials so mechanical simulation for materials so to understand materials to understand materials to understand materials it's uh it's really really really it's uh it's really really really it's uh it's really really really interesting um so interesting um so interesting um so manipulate matter huh i would say the manipulate matter huh i would say the manipulate matter huh i would say the next thing is next thing is next thing is horses right or maybe fields so um horses right or maybe fields so um horses right or maybe fields so um you know manipulating or managing you know manipulating or managing you know manipulating or managing gravity um can we you know um maneuver gravity um can we you know um maneuver gravity um can we you know um maneuver within fields in some manner that allows within fields in some manner that allows within fields in some manner that allows us to um perhaps move propellantless or us to um perhaps move propellantless or us to um perhaps move propellantless or in other manners right and so in other manners right and so in other manners right and so i think essentially i think essentially i think essentially having a deeper understanding of um having a deeper understanding of um having a deeper understanding of um you know different fields and being able you know different fields and being able you know different fields and being able to interact with them to interact with them to interact with them i think would be you know a potential i think would be you know a potential i think would be you know a potential avenue for you know travel or advanced avenue for you know travel or advanced avenue for you know travel or advanced travel right um propel let's travel um travel right um propel let's travel um travel right um propel let's travel um can we can we quantum entangle gravity can we can we quantum entangle gravity can we can we quantum entangle gravity fields together and propel our ship via fields together and propel our ship via fields together and propel our ship via you know the gravity field of a planet you know the gravity field of a planet you know the gravity field of a planet the massive planet and a drive on a ship the massive planet and a drive on a ship the massive planet and a drive on a ship you know there's all sorts of you know there's all sorts of you know there's all sorts of interesting things but interesting things but interesting things but um um um yeah people look back at people like you yeah people look back at people like you yeah people look back at people like you and say wow they used to fly and say wow they used to fly and say wow they used to fly like like like with this kind of propellant it seems with this kind of propellant it seems with this kind of propellant it seems like to be a very antiquated way of like to be a very antiquated way of like to be a very antiquated way of flying and they were very impressed with flying and they were very impressed with flying and they were very impressed with themselves these humans that they could themselves these humans that they could themselves these humans that they could fly like birds fly like birds fly like birds uh it's like so much energy uh it's like so much energy uh it's like so much energy is used to fly such short distances from is used to fly such short distances from is used to fly such short distances from their perspective we can only throw so their perspective we can only throw so their perspective we can only throw so many rocks at the back yeah there needs many rocks at the back yeah there needs many rocks at the back yeah there needs to be a better way exactly it just seems to be a better way exactly it just seems to be a better way exactly it just seems dumb like these dumb like these dumb like these it's like flintstones or something like it's like flintstones or something like it's like flintstones or something like that good at it but yeah there's a limit

that good at it but yeah there's a limit that good at it but yeah there's a limit right like we need something good right like we need something good right like we need something good i mean that that's an interesting sort i mean that that's an interesting sort i mean that that's an interesting sort of uh trade-off how much do you invest of uh trade-off how much do you invest of uh trade-off how much do you invest in getting really good at it i tend to in getting really good at it i tend to in getting really good at it i tend to believe the reason why believe the reason why believe the reason why it would be very important it would be very important it would be very important and very powerful to put a human on mars and very powerful to put a human on mars and very powerful to put a human on mars is not necessarily for the exploration is not necessarily for the exploration is not necessarily for the exploration facet facet facet but in all the different technologies but in all the different technologies but in all the different technologies that come from that that come from that that come from that so the in putting our there's something so the in putting our there's something so the in putting our there's something about putting humans in extreme about putting humans in extreme about putting humans in extreme conditions conditions conditions where we figure out how to make it less where we figure out how to make it less where we figure out how to make it less extreme more comfortable and uh for that extreme more comfortable and uh for that extreme more comfortable and uh for that we invent things like we invent things like we invent things like the dod sort of helping invent the the dod sort of helping invent the the dod sort of helping invent the internet and all the different internet and all the different internet and all the different technologies we've invented it's almost technologies we've invented it's almost technologies we've invented it's almost like an indirect consequence of solving like an indirect consequence of solving like an indirect consequence of solving difficult problems whether that problem difficult problems whether that problem difficult problems whether that problem means means means winning wars winning wars winning wars or colonizing other planets and so i or colonizing other planets and so i or colonizing other planets and so i don't think mars will help us figure out don't think mars will help us figure out don't think mars will help us figure out propulsion systems or to crack open propulsion systems or to crack open propulsion systems or to crack open physics to where you can travel close to physics to where you can travel close to physics to where you can travel close to the speed of light or fasten the speed the speed of light or fasten the speed the speed of light or fasten the speed of light but it will of light but it will of light but it will help us figure out how to build some help us figure out how to build some help us figure out how to build some cool technology here on earth i think cool technology here on earth i think cool technology here on earth i think um so it's i'm a big proponent of doing um so it's i'm a big proponent of doing um so it's i'm a big proponent of doing really difficult things really difficult really difficult things really difficult really difficult things really difficult engineering things to um to see what engineering things to um to see what engineering things to um to see what kind of technologies emerge from that kind of technologies emerge from that kind of technologies emerge from that but but but let me ask you this do you think u.s let me ask you this do you think u.s let me ask you this do you think u.s government is hiding government is hiding government is hiding some technology some technology some technology like alien spacecraft technology like alien spacecraft technology like alien spacecraft technology i have no information either way

i have no information either way i have no information either way and if you did you probably wouldn't and if you did you probably wouldn't and if you did you probably wouldn't tell me but my assumptions you know how tell me but my assumptions you know how tell me but my assumptions you know how like what did my heart tell me my heart like what did my heart tell me my heart like what did my heart tell me my heart tells me something's going on but i have tells me something's going on but i have tells me something's going on but i have no evidence for that no evidence for that no evidence for that maybe that's me wanting something to go maybe that's me wanting something to go maybe that's me wanting something to go on maybe that's a human feeling to want on maybe that's a human feeling to want on maybe that's a human feeling to want to know that my government's in control to know that my government's in control to know that my government's in control of what some strange unknown thing is of what some strange unknown thing is of what some strange unknown thing is um um um [Music] [Music] [Music] what's your sense if such a thing what's your sense if such a thing what's your sense if such a thing happened would uh happened would uh happened would uh with this kind of information leak with with this kind of information leak with with this kind of information leak with this kind of information be released by this kind of information be released by this kind of information be released by the government the government the government i mean that's the worry that you have is i mean that's the worry that you have is i mean that's the worry that you have is because when you don't understand a because when you don't understand a because when you don't understand a thing and it's novel you you want to thing and it's novel you you want to thing and it's novel you you want to hide it so that hide it so that hide it so that uh some kind of enemy doesn't get access uh some kind of enemy doesn't get access uh some kind of enemy doesn't get access to it and use it against you to it and use it against you to it and use it against you i wonder if that is the underlying i wonder if that is the underlying i wonder if that is the underlying assumption i it's a it's the one people assumption i it's a it's the one people assumption i it's a it's the one people always jump to that it's for to you know always jump to that it's for to you know always jump to that it's for to you know to to to maintain secrecy of technology and i maintain secrecy of technology and i maintain secrecy of technology and i assume that's part of it i wonder if assume that's part of it i wonder if assume that's part of it i wonder if there's any other reasons that we would there's any other reasons that we would there's any other reasons that we would want to not talk about it i imagine that want to not talk about it i imagine that want to not talk about it i imagine that in such information would have a shock in such information would have a shock in such information would have a shock to these you know social economic system to these you know social economic system to these you know social economic system of any country if not the world of any country if not the world of any country if not the world and so i wonder if perhaps that was part and so i wonder if perhaps that was part and so i wonder if perhaps that was part of the concern as well you know how of the concern as well you know how of the concern as well you know how society can react to it maybe we're society can react to it maybe we're society can react to it maybe we're anti-fragile enough now with everything anti-fragile enough now with everything anti-fragile enough now with everything that's going on and with our that's going on and with our that's going on and with our communication networks that um communication networks that um communication networks that um you know why not now i don't know but you know why not now i don't know but you know why not now i don't know but it's uh that's something i think about it's uh that's something i think about it's uh that's something i think about as well as well as well yeah the effect on the yeah the effect on the yeah the effect on the the mass psyche the mass psyche the mass psyche uh of of something like this uh of of something like this uh of of something like this that uh that uh that uh that there's another intelligence out that there's another intelligence out that there's another intelligence out there

we had trouble enough to deal with the we had trouble enough to deal with the pandemic pandemic pandemic to have something of this scale basically having just an inkling basically having just an inkling of a phenomena that we have no of a phenomena that we have no of a phenomena that we have no understanding of and could lead to understanding of and could lead to understanding of and could lead to complete destruction of human complete destruction of human complete destruction of human civilization or a flourishing of it civilization or a flourishing of it civilization or a flourishing of it and what do you do and what do you do and what do you do what does the bureaucracy of government what does the bureaucracy of government what does the bureaucracy of government do with that yeah especially when do with that yeah especially when do with that yeah especially when they're the ones holding the range of they're the ones holding the range of they're the ones holding the range of power and such a communication would power and such a communication would power and such a communication would relinquish that power essentially to relinquish that power essentially to relinquish that power essentially to some degree since you think there's aliens out there since you think there's aliens out there and and and you're somebody that's thought about war you're somebody that's thought about war you're somebody that's thought about war quite a bit do you think alien quite a bit do you think alien quite a bit do you think alien civilizations civilizations civilizations when we meet them would want war when we meet them would want war when we meet them would want war would would they be a danger to us would would would they be a danger to us would would would they be a danger to us would they be a friend to us they be a friend to us they be a friend to us what's your intuition what's your intuition what's your intuition about intelligences out there about intelligences out there about intelligences out there my intuition tells me that when two my intuition tells me that when two my intuition tells me that when two people like yourself and myself or people like yourself and myself or people like yourself and myself or anyone get together anyone get together anyone get together often the output is greater than often the output is greater than often the output is greater than individuals individuals individuals and when we work together we can and when we work together we can and when we work together we can typically do things typically do things typically do things that are more impressive and better than that are more impressive and better than that are more impressive and better than if a single person works alone if a single person works alone if a single person works alone and now i know that and now i know that and now i know that war has war has war has driven technology technological driven technology technological driven technology technological progress progress progress but perhaps there's other mechanisms but perhaps there's other mechanisms but perhaps there's other mechanisms that can do so but regardless that can do so but regardless that can do so but regardless i wonder you know if we truly think i wonder you know if we truly think i wonder you know if we truly think about an advanced society that has been

about an advanced society that has been about an advanced society that has been perhaps thousands or millions of years perhaps thousands or millions of years perhaps thousands or millions of years ahead of us ahead of us ahead of us i would imagine that same i would imagine that same i would imagine that same same truth to be there that people same truth to be there that people same truth to be there that people working together creatures working working together creatures working working together creatures working together is a good thing for together is a good thing for together is a good thing for society or its society as a whole society or its society as a whole society or its society as a whole and if we consider that and if we consider that and if we consider that as as as we imagine a society growing and we imagine a society growing and we imagine a society growing and expanding in a sense the ultimate expanding in a sense the ultimate expanding in a sense the ultimate output of a planet could only be output of a planet could only be output of a planet could only be achieved in some senses if everyone was achieved in some senses if everyone was achieved in some senses if everyone was working towards the same goal and there working towards the same goal and there working towards the same goal and there might be might be might be you know wonders and secrets and things you know wonders and secrets and things you know wonders and secrets and things that we can't imagine just simply that we can't imagine just simply that we can't imagine just simply because of time frames that we we live because of time frames that we we live because of time frames that we we live under and we think in under and we think in under and we think in but if a planet has a single unit and it but if a planet has a single unit and it but if a planet has a single unit and it almost as an entity itself at a certain almost as an entity itself at a certain almost as an entity itself at a certain level right if everything's working level right if everything's working level right if everything's working towards the same output you know i could towards the same output you know i could towards the same output you know i could almost imagine an intelligent species almost imagine an intelligent species almost imagine an intelligent species that approached us planted the planet that approached us planted the planet that approached us planted the planet instead of person to person because instead of person to person because instead of person to person because that's how they've evolved and they've that's how they've evolved and they've that's how they've evolved and they've assumed any intelligent species would assumed any intelligent species would assumed any intelligent species would understand that working together is understand that working together is understand that working together is better than not better than not better than not and so you know my heart tells me that and so you know my heart tells me that and so you know my heart tells me that at a certain point um you know love and at a certain point um you know love and at a certain point um you know love and caring and desire to work together is caring and desire to work together is caring and desire to work together is much more powerful than you know the much more powerful than you know the much more powerful than you know the technological progress that war would technological progress that war would technological progress that war would bring bring bring i hope so as well i hope so as well i hope so as well well let me jump to the ai topic that well let me jump to the ai topic that well let me jump to the ai topic that you've done you've done you've done so you've done research and development so you've done research and development so you've done research and development efforts focused on multi-agent efforts focused on multi-agent efforts focused on multi-agent intelligence for collaborative autonomy intelligence for collaborative autonomy intelligence for collaborative autonomy machine learning ai stuff that we've machine learning ai stuff that we've machine learning ai stuff that we've been talking about for combat been talking about for combat been talking about for combat for air-to-air combat man unmanned

for air-to-air combat man unmanned for air-to-air combat man unmanned teaming technologies all that kind of teaming technologies all that kind of teaming technologies all that kind of stuff stuff stuff what's some interesting ideas in this what's some interesting ideas in this what's some interesting ideas in this space that um fascinate you space that um fascinate you space that um fascinate you randomness randomness randomness you know being able to to not predict you know being able to to not predict you know being able to to not predict what the enemy is doing almost no matter what the enemy is doing almost no matter what the enemy is doing almost no matter what because there's a level of what because there's a level of what because there's a level of randomness that's within the tactical randomness that's within the tactical randomness that's within the tactical envelope envelope envelope um even a utility of randomness the um even a utility of randomness the um even a utility of randomness the utility of randomness in a an increase utility of randomness in a an increase utility of randomness in a an increase sounds like a book you should write sounds like a book you should write sounds like a book you should write and it would be a good title name my and it would be a good title name my and it would be a good title name my band band band name of your band yeah uh so yeah can name of your band yeah uh so yeah can name of your band yeah uh so yeah can you elaborate that so like you elaborate that so like you elaborate that so like trying to deeper understand how you can trying to deeper understand how you can trying to deeper understand how you can integrate randomness integrate randomness integrate randomness uh through ai uh through ai uh through ai in the context of combat in order to in the context of combat in order to in the context of combat in order to make yourself make yourself make yourself in order to take away the enemy's in order to take away the enemy's in order to take away the enemy's ability to try to predict what you're ability to try to predict what you're ability to try to predict what you're gonna do to disrupt their technological gonna do to disrupt their technological gonna do to disrupt their technological progress cycles progress cycles progress cycles uh so that they don't have a clear uh so that they don't have a clear uh so that they don't have a clear target to aim at and if you don't have a target to aim at and if you don't have a target to aim at and if you don't have a clear target to aim at it's hard to hit clear target to aim at it's hard to hit clear target to aim at it's hard to hit it it it additionally more distribution of assets additionally more distribution of assets additionally more distribution of assets and capability so imagine being able to and capability so imagine being able to and capability so imagine being able to digitally digitally digitally model your model your model your your weapon or your system or your your weapon or your system or your your weapon or your system or your entire tactical engagement or scenario entire tactical engagement or scenario entire tactical engagement or scenario or allow machine learning to help you or allow machine learning to help you or allow machine learning to help you better understand the technology better understand the technology better understand the technology that you need to build in order to that you need to build in order to that you need to build in order to defeat a particular scenario right and defeat a particular scenario right and defeat a particular scenario right and i'm talking hardware now not just the i'm talking hardware now not just the i'm talking hardware now not just the tactic itself tactic itself tactic itself and you know being able to use large and you know being able to use large and you know being able to use large amounts of simulation and machine amounts of simulation and machine amounts of simulation and machine learning to build individual assets that learning to build individual assets that learning to build individual assets that are small boutique using advanced manual are small boutique using advanced manual are small boutique using advanced manual factoring factoring factoring techniques for a mission or for a

techniques for a mission or for a techniques for a mission or for a particular battle right instead of just particular battle right instead of just particular battle right instead of just having these large things against an having these large things against an having these large things against an enemy you're building systems and enemy you're building systems and enemy you're building systems and technology for individual cases technology for individual cases technology for individual cases what about manned and unmanned teaming what about manned and unmanned teaming what about manned and unmanned teaming so uh man and machine working together so uh man and machine working together so uh man and machine working together is there interesting ideas there i is there interesting ideas there i is there interesting ideas there i approach it from the um approach it from the um approach it from the um position that position that position that the human should be the human should be the human should be commanding from the highest level commanding from the highest level commanding from the highest level possible right so possible right so possible right so mission objective mission objective mission objective based targeting and so if based targeting and so if based targeting and so if just for example if there's a building just for example if there's a building just for example if there's a building here and i want that building to go away here and i want that building to go away here and i want that building to go away that's the message i want to communicate that's the message i want to communicate that's the message i want to communicate i don't want to tell certain vehicles to i don't want to tell certain vehicles to i don't want to tell certain vehicles to be in a certain spot i don't want to be in a certain spot i don't want to be in a certain spot i don't want to know how much fuel i have i don't even know how much fuel i have i don't even know how much fuel i have i don't even want to know what capabilities they have want to know what capabilities they have want to know what capabilities they have necessarily i just want to know necessarily i just want to know necessarily i just want to know that i have the ability to select from a that i have the ability to select from a that i have the ability to select from a cloud of capabilities and the right cloud of capabilities and the right cloud of capabilities and the right assets are going to arrive such that assets are going to arrive such that assets are going to arrive such that they deal with the contingencies around they deal with the contingencies around they deal with the contingencies around the target such as protection systems or the target such as protection systems or the target such as protection systems or ew and then can prosecute the target to ew and then can prosecute the target to ew and then can prosecute the target to the higher enough probability of the higher enough probability of the higher enough probability of satisfaction that's needed by the satisfaction that's needed by the satisfaction that's needed by the mission command and that's the power of mission command and that's the power of mission command and that's the power of the the human mind is it's able to do the the human mind is it's able to do the the human mind is it's able to do some of these strategic calculations but some of these strategic calculations but some of these strategic calculations but also ethical calculations all that kind also ethical calculations all that kind also ethical calculations all that kind of stuff exactly that's what humans are of stuff exactly that's what humans are of stuff exactly that's what humans are good at good at good at does it worry you does it worry you does it worry you a future will have increasingly a future will have increasingly a future will have increasingly higher autonomy in our weapon systems in higher autonomy in our weapon systems in higher autonomy in our weapon systems in our war so you said building our war so you said building our war so you said building what about what about what about uh telling a set of uh telling a set of uh telling a set of fully autonomous drones to get rid of fully autonomous drones to get rid of fully autonomous drones to get rid of all the terrorists in this city

all the terrorists in this city all the terrorists in this city so these multiple buildings so these multiple buildings so these multiple buildings region region region that kind of it's a greater and greater that kind of it's a greater and greater that kind of it's a greater and greater um um um autonomy autonomy autonomy so that that's a fear right um so that that's a fear right um so that that's a fear right um you're viewing it from a we can cover you're viewing it from a we can cover you're viewing it from a we can cover more perspective which is um more perspective which is um more perspective which is um fair and fair and fair and a lot of a lot of a lot of we i don't approach it from that topic we i don't approach it from that topic we i don't approach it from that topic at least i don't think of it that way at at least i don't think of it that way at at least i don't think of it that way at least morally least morally least morally um um um i think that with the advancement of i think that with the advancement of i think that with the advancement of warfare assuming we have a justin and warfare assuming we have a justin and warfare assuming we have a justin and moral leadership moral leadership moral leadership um if that's the case then um if that's the case then um if that's the case then i am an advocate for increased autonomy i am an advocate for increased autonomy i am an advocate for increased autonomy and technology because i see it as an and technology because i see it as an and technology because i see it as an ability to be more precise ability to be more precise ability to be more precise and if we trust the moral leadership of and if we trust the moral leadership of and if we trust the moral leadership of our our our government then we would want to be as government then we would want to be as government then we would want to be as precise as possible in order to mitigate precise as possible in order to mitigate precise as possible in order to mitigate effects that we don't want effects that we don't want effects that we don't want so so so i know that's not a satisfying answer i know that's not a satisfying answer i know that's not a satisfying answer and it leaves us well no bad feelings and it leaves us well no bad feelings and it leaves us well no bad feelings but no because having experienced sort but no because having experienced sort but no because having experienced sort of um directly seeing directly seeing what it looks like what it looks like what it looks like when deliberately or when deliberately or when deliberately or carelessly carelessly carelessly war leads to the death of a large number war leads to the death of a large number war leads to the death of a large number of civilians it doesn't currently in of civilians it doesn't currently in of civilians it doesn't currently in ukraine ukraine ukraine the the value of precision the the value of precision the the value of precision given ethical leadership becomes given ethical leadership becomes given ethical leadership becomes apparent apparent apparent so there's something so there's something so there's something distinctly unethical about the the

distinctly unethical about the the distinctly unethical about the the murder of civilians in a time of war murder of civilians in a time of war murder of civilians in a time of war and i think technology helps lessen that and i think technology helps lessen that and i think technology helps lessen that of course all death is is terrible of course all death is is terrible of course all death is is terrible but there's there's something about um but there's there's something about um but there's there's something about um schools hospitals schools hospitals schools hospitals being destroyed with everybody inside being destroyed with everybody inside being destroyed with everybody inside being killed um being killed um being killed um yeah it's particularly terrible yeah it's particularly terrible yeah it's particularly terrible it is it is it is and you know you approached it from the and you know you approached it from the and you know you approached it from the angle of more autonomy enables a wider angle of more autonomy enables a wider angle of more autonomy enables a wider you know swath of destruction and you know swath of destruction and you know swath of destruction and that's where we get back into you know that's where we get back into you know that's where we get back into you know who who's making the decisions based off who who's making the decisions based off who who's making the decisions based off of this and of this and of this and you know my hope again would be that we you know my hope again would be that we you know my hope again would be that we would have the leadership that would use would have the leadership that would use would have the leadership that would use these things when needed in the precise these things when needed in the precise these things when needed in the precise way as possible to minimize that and way as possible to minimize that and way as possible to minimize that and i've seen that firsthand you know i've i've seen that firsthand you know i've i've seen that firsthand you know i've seen that in country i've seen seen that in country i've seen seen that in country i've seen not not blue forces but you know i've not not blue forces but you know i've not not blue forces but you know i've seen truck bombs go off on school buses seen truck bombs go off on school buses seen truck bombs go off on school buses you know driving around afghanistan you know driving around afghanistan you know driving around afghanistan uh uh uh while escorting convoys and you know it while escorting convoys and you know it while escorting convoys and you know it wasn't easy then and i'm sure it's not wasn't easy then and i'm sure it's not wasn't easy then and i'm sure it's not any easier now especially after what any easier now especially after what any easier now especially after what you've just seen you've just seen you've just seen do you have thoughts about the current do you have thoughts about the current do you have thoughts about the current war in ukraine maybe from a military war in ukraine maybe from a military war in ukraine maybe from a military perspective perspective perspective maybe from the air force perspective so maybe from the air force perspective so maybe from the air force perspective so i can just mention a few things there's i can just mention a few things there's i can just mention a few things there's the uh baraktar drones that are being the uh baraktar drones that are being the uh baraktar drones that are being used used used uh they're unmanned i think they have uh they're unmanned i think they have uh they're unmanned i think they have capability to be autonomous but they're capability to be autonomous but they're capability to be autonomous but they're usually remotely controlled they're used usually remotely controlled they're used usually remotely controlled they're used for reconnaissance but they're also used for reconnaissance but they're also used for reconnaissance but they're also used by the ukraine side for reconnaissance

by the ukraine side for reconnaissance by the ukraine side for reconnaissance and and and i think um i think um i think um also to destroy also to destroy also to destroy different technology tanks and so on different technology tanks and so on different technology tanks and so on different targets like this different targets like this different targets like this uh so there's also on the on the russian uh so there's also on the on the russian uh so there's also on the on the russian side the the orlan 10 side the the orlan 10 side the the orlan 10 there's the the fighter jets there's the the fighter jets there's the the fighter jets uh mig-29 the ukraine side and the su-25 uh mig-29 the ukraine side and the su-25 uh mig-29 the ukraine side and the su-25 and the russian side is there anything and the russian side is there anything and the russian side is there anything kind of stands out to you about this kind of stands out to you about this kind of stands out to you about this particular particular particular aspect of what this war looks like aspect of what this war looks like aspect of what this war looks like that's unique to what you've experienced that's unique to what you've experienced that's unique to what you've experienced maybe not unique but it's just been maybe not unique but it's just been maybe not unique but it's just been absolutely incredible to see absolutely incredible to see absolutely incredible to see the footage you know i mean we're the footage you know i mean we're the footage you know i mean we're watching watching watching war on twitter you know essentially and war on twitter you know essentially and war on twitter you know essentially and to see you know these aircraft flying to see you know these aircraft flying to see you know these aircraft flying down low spitting flares out getting down low spitting flares out getting down low spitting flares out getting shot down it's you know it's incredible shot down it's you know it's incredible shot down it's you know it's incredible to see this happening you know to see this happening you know to see this happening you know live for everyone to see live for everyone to see live for everyone to see um so that's just kind of a quick meta um so that's just kind of a quick meta um so that's just kind of a quick meta comment but as far as the actual you comment but as far as the actual you comment but as far as the actual you know i think these small form factor know i think these small form factor know i think these small form factor uavs where they're just like strapping uavs where they're just like strapping uavs where they're just like strapping weapon to it and flying over and trying weapon to it and flying over and trying weapon to it and flying over and trying to drop it at the right time or any of to drop it at the right time or any of to drop it at the right time or any of this these type of commercial this these type of commercial this these type of commercial applications of technology into this ad applications of technology into this ad applications of technology into this ad hoc warfare area is incredibly hoc warfare area is incredibly hoc warfare area is incredibly interesting because it shows you know interesting because it shows you know interesting because it shows you know how useful that technology can be how useful that technology can be how useful that technology can be outside of the military right like these outside of the military right like these outside of the military right like these like especially like dji right like like especially like dji right like like especially like dji right like there's obviously a lot of technology in there's obviously a lot of technology in there's obviously a lot of technology in there is being leveraged for other there is being leveraged for other there is being leveraged for other capabilities within you know plc capabilities within you know plc capabilities within you know plc military uh or at least we would assume military uh or at least we would assume military uh or at least we would assume um um um what happens if that is more widespread what happens if that is more widespread what happens if that is more widespread right like what if we were creating our right like what if we were creating our right like what if we were creating our own drones and they were being used own drones and they were being used own drones and they were being used against us would we want to have some against us would we want to have some against us would we want to have some type of kill switch or something like type of kill switch or something like type of kill switch or something like that right so

that right so that right so what i think governments are going to what i think governments are going to what i think governments are going to have to consider like all these tools have to consider like all these tools have to consider like all these tools that are going to be easily available to that are going to be easily available to that are going to be easily available to just any person could be turned into a just any person could be turned into a just any person could be turned into a tool of war how do we stop that from tool of war how do we stop that from tool of war how do we stop that from being turned against us you know being turned against us you know being turned against us you know especially as we look at you know 10 especially as we look at you know 10 especially as we look at you know 10 years from now when we have a large years from now when we have a large years from now when we have a large number of autonomous uavs delivering number of autonomous uavs delivering number of autonomous uavs delivering packages and doing everything else over packages and doing everything else over packages and doing everything else over our country and any one of those could our country and any one of those could our country and any one of those could be potentially a weapon if we don't have be potentially a weapon if we don't have be potentially a weapon if we don't have the proper security well there's we're the proper security well there's we're the proper security well there's we're now in texas and texas values its guns now in texas and texas values its guns now in texas and texas values its guns and sees guns as among other things a and sees guns as among other things a and sees guns as among other things a protector protector protector of individual freedom and you can see a of individual freedom and you can see a of individual freedom and you can see a future perhaps where and i've certainly future perhaps where and i've certainly future perhaps where and i've certainly have experienced this in have experienced this in have experienced this in the empowering nature of this in ukraine the empowering nature of this in ukraine the empowering nature of this in ukraine where you can where you can where you can put the fight for independence into your put the fight for independence into your put the fight for independence into your own hands by literally strapping own hands by literally strapping own hands by literally strapping explosives to ggi drones that you explosives to ggi drones that you explosives to ggi drones that you purchase on your own salary i mean that purchase on your own salary i mean that purchase on your own salary i mean that one of the interesting things about the one of the interesting things about the one of the interesting things about the voluntary army in ukraine voluntary army in ukraine voluntary army in ukraine is that they're basically using their is that they're basically using their is that they're basically using their own salary own salary own salary to buy the ammunition to buy the ammunition to buy the ammunition to fight for their independence this is to fight for their independence this is to fight for their independence this is the very kind of ideal that sort of uh the very kind of ideal that sort of uh the very kind of ideal that sort of uh people speak about when they speak about people speak about when they speak about people speak about when they speak about the the the second amendment in this country second amendment in this country second amendment in this country that that that it's interesting to see the advanced it's interesting to see the advanced it's interesting to see the advanced technology version of that especially in technology version of that especially in technology version of that especially in ukraine sort of using uh computer vision ukraine sort of using uh computer vision ukraine sort of using uh computer vision technology for technology for technology for uh surveillance and reconnaissance to uh surveillance and reconnaissance to uh surveillance and reconnaissance to try to try to try to um and integrate that information to to

um and integrate that information to to um and integrate that information to to discover the targets and all that kind discover the targets and all that kind discover the targets and all that kind of stuff um to put that in the hands of of stuff um to put that in the hands of of stuff um to put that in the hands of civilians it's fascinating to see to civilians it's fascinating to see to civilians it's fascinating to see to sort of fight for their independence you sort of fight for their independence you sort of fight for their independence you could say that to fight could say that to fight could say that to fight against um authoritarian regime of your against um authoritarian regime of your against um authoritarian regime of your own government all that kind of stuff it own government all that kind of stuff it own government all that kind of stuff it shows you how complicated the worst shows you how complicated the worst shows you how complicated the worst space in the future is going to be you space in the future is going to be you space in the future is going to be you know invading a land like that where know invading a land like that where know invading a land like that where people have you know that many different people have you know that many different people have you know that many different types of resources can absolutely change types of resources can absolutely change types of resources can absolutely change warfare warfare warfare i mean hopefully i mean hopefully i mean hopefully that creates a disincentive to start war that creates a disincentive to start war that creates a disincentive to start war to go to war with a yeah sort of it to go to war with a yeah sort of it to go to war with a yeah sort of it changes the nature of guerrilla warfare changes the nature of guerrilla warfare changes the nature of guerrilla warfare yeah you know i don't think putin was yeah you know i don't think putin was yeah you know i don't think putin was expecting to be in that engagement quite expecting to be in that engagement quite expecting to be in that engagement quite as long as he has of course as long as he has of course as long as he has of course but it can show you how you can get but it can show you how you can get but it can show you how you can get caught up you know if if land wars turn caught up you know if if land wars turn caught up you know if if land wars turn into into into an inescapable quagmire each time due to an inescapable quagmire each time due to an inescapable quagmire each time due to the complications around the the complications around the the complications around the the society's ability to access the society's ability to access the society's ability to access interesting tools interesting tools interesting tools you know that it could be you know it you know that it could be you know it you know that it could be you know it could be a huge demotivator for could be a huge demotivator for could be a huge demotivator for aggression well let me ask you about this do you well let me ask you about this do you think there will always be war in the think there will always be war in the think there will always be war in the world i think so i think so i think i think it is uh i think i think it is uh i think i think it is uh until we until we move past resource until we until we move past resource until we until we move past resource limitation limitation limitation there's always going to be at least that

there's always going to be at least that there's always going to be at least that one particular cause one particular cause one particular cause of conflict of conflict of conflict and then we can also consider all our and then we can also consider all our and then we can also consider all our psychological psychological psychological lizard brain emotions that cause us to lizard brain emotions that cause us to lizard brain emotions that cause us to act out although you know we're act out although you know we're act out although you know we're hopefully we have enough things in place hopefully we have enough things in place hopefully we have enough things in place to stop that from to stop that from to stop that from rising to the level of war but you know rising to the level of war but you know rising to the level of war but you know we have our own biology our own we have our own biology our own we have our own biology our own psychology and evolution to combat psychology and evolution to combat psychology and evolution to combat um and then but there are pragmatic um and then but there are pragmatic um and then but there are pragmatic reasons to exert violence sometimes reasons to exert violence sometimes reasons to exert violence sometimes unfortunately and that one of those unfortunately and that one of those unfortunately and that one of those cases could be resource limitations and cases could be resource limitations and cases could be resource limitations and so while your question was do i think so while your question was do i think so while your question was do i think there'll always be war in this world i there'll always be war in this world i there'll always be war in this world i my unfortunate answer is perhaps yes but my unfortunate answer is perhaps yes but my unfortunate answer is perhaps yes but once there's more than one world then once there's more than one world then once there's more than one world then we're less resource constrained then we're less resource constrained then we're less resource constrained then perhaps it'll be a valve of sorts for perhaps it'll be a valve of sorts for perhaps it'll be a valve of sorts for that that that i talked to i talked to i talked to joko on this podcast i i i told him joko on this podcast i i i told him joko on this podcast i i i told him about a song about a song about a song called brothers in arms called brothers in arms called brothers in arms by dire straits by dire straits by dire straits and uh the question i asked them i'd and uh the question i asked them i'd and uh the question i asked them i'd like to ask you the same question is like to ask you the same question is like to ask you the same question is like the song goes like the song goes like the song goes do you think we're fools to wage war and do you think we're fools to wage war and do you think we're fools to wage war and our brothers in arms our brothers in arms our brothers in arms and jacob said and jacob said and jacob said our enemy is not our brothers and arms our enemy is not our brothers and arms our enemy is not our brothers and arms they're the enemy they're the enemy they're the enemy and so this kind of notion that we're and so this kind of notion that we're and so this kind of notion that we're all human all human all human that's a notion that's a luxury you can that's a notion that's a luxury you can that's a notion that's a luxury you can have have have but there is but there is but there is good and bad in this world according to good and bad in this world according to good and bad in this world according to jocko jocko jocko i hear that

i hear that i hear that anger and hate when i anger and hate when i anger and hate when i was in ukraine among some people was in ukraine among some people was in ukraine among some people were there was a sense where you could be there was a sense where you could be brothers and sisters you can have family brothers and sisters you can have family brothers and sisters you can have family you can have love you can have love you can have love for for for from ukraine to russia from ukraine to russia from ukraine to russia um but now that everything changed and um but now that everything changed and um but now that everything changed and generational hate for some people have generational hate for some people have generational hate for some people have taken over taken over taken over so i guess the question is um so i guess the question is um so i guess the question is um when you think about the enemy when you think about the enemy when you think about the enemy is there hate there to acknowledge that is there hate there to acknowledge that is there hate there to acknowledge that they're human they're human they're human i'd never had any hate or discontent i'd never had any hate or discontent i'd never had any hate or discontent you know when i was doing my job i'll you know when i was doing my job i'll you know when i was doing my job i'll say say say but i was also never in a true life for but i was also never in a true life for but i was also never in a true life for death situation where they were gonna death situation where they were gonna death situation where they were gonna kill me if i didn't kill them kill me if i didn't kill them kill me if i didn't kill them um um um but you know i think that environment but you know i think that environment but you know i think that environment isn't one born out of hate isn't one born out of hate isn't one born out of hate you know being in that type of scenario you know being in that type of scenario you know being in that type of scenario you know a sense how to be alive right i you know a sense how to be alive right i you know a sense how to be alive right i mean that's the our natural state is be mean that's the our natural state is be mean that's the our natural state is be fighting for our survival in a sense and fighting for our survival in a sense and fighting for our survival in a sense and so i think there's there's great so i think there's there's great so i think there's there's great power and strength and clarity perhaps power and strength and clarity perhaps power and strength and clarity perhaps in that and it's not always borne out of in that and it's not always borne out of in that and it's not always borne out of of hate but out of necessity and we of hate but out of necessity and we of hate but out of necessity and we can't always control that and i think as can't always control that and i think as can't always control that and i think as we focus on ourselves so much we focus on ourselves so much we focus on ourselves so much we only dance on that pinhead when we we only dance on that pinhead when we we only dance on that pinhead when we find ourselves fighting for things that find ourselves fighting for things that find ourselves fighting for things that we need and we're always taking from we need and we're always taking from we need and we're always taking from someone else at this point and so someone else at this point and so someone else at this point and so as someone that's been in combat and as someone that's been in combat and as someone that's been in combat and very high above it i'll say right where very high above it i'll say right where very high above it i'll say right where i didn't feel like i was in particular

i didn't feel like i was in particular i didn't feel like i was in particular danger danger danger um um um i i rationalized it and i made my wife i i rationalized it and i made my wife i i rationalized it and i made my wife do it knowing that there were people on do it knowing that there were people on do it knowing that there were people on the other side that were going to die the other side that were going to die the other side that were going to die that were on our side than not so it was that were on our side than not so it was that were on our side than not so it was always a very human thing it was never always a very human thing it was never always a very human thing it was never um um um a reaction emotional reaction of any a reaction emotional reaction of any a reaction emotional reaction of any sense so you do you were able to see sense so you do you were able to see sense so you do you were able to see the basic uh it's human versus human the basic uh it's human versus human the basic uh it's human versus human there's some aspect of war that is there's some aspect of war that is there's some aspect of war that is basically basically basically um one people fighting each other yes at the end of the day you know yes at the end of the day you know especially i would say in aviation especially i would say in aviation especially i would say in aviation tactical aviation there's almost a tactical aviation there's almost a tactical aviation there's almost a kinship with your your enemies in a kinship with your your enemies in a kinship with your your enemies in a sense because you know that sense because you know that sense because you know that you know them in a sense right you know you know them in a sense right you know you know them in a sense right you know what they've been through what they've been through what they've been through you know what training they've been you know what training they've been you know what training they've been through you know where they've failed through you know where they've failed through you know where they've failed and you know what type of person they and you know what type of person they and you know what type of person they are because it's a very unique person are because it's a very unique person are because it's a very unique person that does that job and usually can spot that does that job and usually can spot that does that job and usually can spot them i guess it's the kind of respect them i guess it's the kind of respect them i guess it's the kind of respect you have you have you have for for for the craftsmanship of the job that's the craftsmanship of the job that's the craftsmanship of the job that's taken on certainly and that person taken on certainly and that person taken on certainly and that person didn't come out in his 100 million didn't come out in his 100 million didn't come out in his 100 million dollar jet because i pissed him off you dollar jet because i pissed him off you dollar jet because i pissed him off you know it's it's not an emotional response know it's it's not an emotional response know it's it's not an emotional response we're both there we're both there we're both there maybe because we chose to be in some maybe because we chose to be in some maybe because we chose to be in some sense but at the behest of of someone sense but at the behest of of someone sense but at the behest of of someone else and outside of our control and else and outside of our control and else and outside of our control and power and so in a sense for me power and so in a sense for me power and so in a sense for me it's almost a challenge that we've it's almost a challenge that we've it's almost a challenge that we've engaged upon agreeably but that's such a engaged upon agreeably but that's such a engaged upon agreeably but that's such a romantic version that i have the luxury romantic version that i have the luxury romantic version that i have the luxury to have being high in my castle in the

to have being high in my castle in the to have being high in my castle in the jet up there not on the ground so i jet up there not on the ground so i jet up there not on the ground so i understand that it's a bit more romantic understand that it's a bit more romantic understand that it's a bit more romantic than perhaps than perhaps than perhaps you know someone on the ground you know someone on the ground you know someone on the ground experiencing all the horrors down there experiencing all the horrors down there experiencing all the horrors down there because everything looks very small from because everything looks very small from because everything looks very small from above above above and that's another aspect of war with and that's another aspect of war with and that's another aspect of war with greater autonomy when you're controlling greater autonomy when you're controlling greater autonomy when you're controlling the mission versus the mission versus the mission versus uh uh uh you know you know you know have a genghis khan type of intimacy in have a genghis khan type of intimacy in have a genghis khan type of intimacy in terms of the actual terms of the actual terms of the actual experience of war where you directly experience of war where you directly experience of war where you directly have have have you murder with a sword versus a gun you murder with a sword versus a gun you murder with a sword versus a gun versus a remotely controlled drone versus a remotely controlled drone versus a remotely controlled drone versus a strategic mission assignment to versus a strategic mission assignment to versus a strategic mission assignment to an autonomous drone that executes an autonomous drone that executes an autonomous drone that executes abstracted away until it's just a small abstracted away until it's just a small abstracted away until it's just a small decision decision decision and my worry and my worry and my worry is the people without a voice is the people without a voice is the people without a voice are are are are completely forgotten and silenced in are completely forgotten and silenced in are completely forgotten and silenced in all these calculations i spoke to a lot all these calculations i spoke to a lot all these calculations i spoke to a lot of people of people of people poor people poor people poor people that feel like they've never really had that feel like they've never really had that feel like they've never really had a voice and um a voice and um a voice and um and they're too easily forgotten even and they're too easily forgotten even and they're too easily forgotten even within the country of ukraine within the country of ukraine within the country of ukraine it's the uh it's the uh it's the uh the um the um the um big city versus the rural divide big city versus the rural divide big city versus the rural divide you know it's easy to forget the people you know it's easy to forget the people you know it's easy to forget the people that that that don't have a twitter account and don't don't have a twitter account and don't don't have a twitter account and don't um um um that their basic existence is just that their basic existence is just that their basic existence is just trying to survive trying to put food on trying to survive trying to put food on trying to survive trying to put food on the table they don't have anything the table they don't have anything the table they don't have anything else else else um anything else and they are the ones

um anything else and they are the ones um anything else and they are the ones that truly feel the pain of war that truly feel the pain of war that truly feel the pain of war of uh the supply chain going down or the of uh the supply chain going down or the of uh the supply chain going down or the food supplies going down of of a cold food supplies going down of of a cold food supplies going down of of a cold winter without power winter without power winter without power um um um you're still young you're still young you're still young but you've seen some things but you've seen some things but you've seen some things so uh let me ask you to put on your wise so uh let me ask you to put on your wise so uh let me ask you to put on your wise sage hat and uh give advice to young sage hat and uh give advice to young sage hat and uh give advice to young people people people whether they're fascinated by technology whether they're fascinated by technology whether they're fascinated by technology or fascinated by fighter jets or fascinated by fighter jets or fascinated by fighter jets whether they're fascinated by sort of whether they're fascinated by sort of whether they're fascinated by sort of engineering or engineering or engineering or the way the stars look at night the way the stars look at night the way the stars look at night what advice would you give them how to what advice would you give them how to what advice would you give them how to have a career they can be proud of or have a career they can be proud of or have a career they can be proud of or how to have a life they can be proud of how to have a life they can be proud of how to have a life they can be proud of i'd suggest that they i'd suggest that they i'd suggest that they don't fear looking foolish don't fear looking foolish don't fear looking foolish i spent a large portion of my life i spent a large portion of my life i spent a large portion of my life uh considering the laughter or the the uh considering the laughter or the the uh considering the laughter or the the comments up my statements as uh comments up my statements as uh comments up my statements as uh indication that i shouldn't pursue that indication that i shouldn't pursue that indication that i shouldn't pursue that and so you know and so you know and so you know i didn't i kind of woke up to that fact i didn't i kind of woke up to that fact i didn't i kind of woke up to that fact a bit later but i would encourage a bit later but i would encourage a bit later but i would encourage you know i would advise that that people you know i would advise that that people you know i would advise that that people you know trust in themselves and trust you know trust in themselves and trust you know trust in themselves and trust in the things that they care about it in the things that they care about it in the things that they care about it doesn't matter if they're good at it doesn't matter if they're good at it doesn't matter if they're good at it all that matters is that they find all that matters is that they find all that matters is that they find something that they can apply something that they can apply something that they can apply love and care to and they will grow love and care to and they will grow love and care to and they will grow better at it and they'll most likely better at it and they'll most likely better at it and they'll most likely make the world better because of it make the world better because of it make the world better because of it and don't be afraid to look stupid don't and don't be afraid to look stupid don't and don't be afraid to look stupid don't be afraid to look stupid be afraid to look stupid be afraid to look stupid uh yeah that's one of the things that i uh yeah that's one of the things that i uh yeah that's one of the things that i think as you get older you're expected think as you get older you're expected think as you get older you're expected to be

to be to be to have it all figured out and so you to have it all figured out and so you to have it all figured out and so you are afraid to take on new things are afraid to take on new things are afraid to take on new things uh but i think as long as you're always uh but i think as long as you're always uh but i think as long as you're always okay looking stupid and having a okay looking stupid and having a okay looking stupid and having a beginner's mind you can you can get beginner's mind you can you can get beginner's mind you can you can get really really far even later on in life really really far even later on in life really really far even later on in life so this isn't just advice for young so this isn't just advice for young so this isn't just advice for young people this is really advice for people this is really advice for people this is really advice for for everybody maybe a dark question but um has there maybe a dark question but um has there been been been a difficult time in your life a really a difficult time in your life a really a difficult time in your life a really dark place you've gone in your mind dark place you've gone in your mind dark place you've gone in your mind that stands out they had to really that stands out they had to really that stands out they had to really overcome overcome overcome i would suggest that i've been i would suggest that i've been i would suggest that i've been a pretty firm ground for most of my life a pretty firm ground for most of my life a pretty firm ground for most of my life i haven't had i haven't had i haven't had too many too many too many personal tragedies i'll say that have personal tragedies i'll say that have personal tragedies i'll say that have really defined really defined really defined me me me um certainly none that i would think are um certainly none that i would think are um certainly none that i would think are outside the norm so there was no outside the norm so there was no outside the norm so there was no truly low point truly low point truly low point actually i have one and it's tough for actually i have one and it's tough for actually i have one and it's tough for me because me because me because i you know i've spent most of my life i you know i've spent most of my life i you know i've spent most of my life beating motions and and you know beating motions and and you know beating motions and and you know uh high high emotional responses out of uh high high emotional responses out of uh high high emotional responses out of my system right because that's what my system right because that's what my system right because that's what flying is right it's keeping a steady flying is right it's keeping a steady flying is right it's keeping a steady line and and doing what you need to do line and and doing what you need to do line and and doing what you need to do in fact there's been studies that have in fact there's been studies that have in fact there's been studies that have shown reduced uh um adrenaline shown reduced uh um adrenaline shown reduced uh um adrenaline production inviter pilots for a number production inviter pilots for a number production inviter pilots for a number of years after they get out but getting of years after they get out but getting of years after they get out but getting out of the navy was difficult for me you out of the navy was difficult for me you out of the navy was difficult for me you know it and i wasn't expecting it to be know it and i wasn't expecting it to be know it and i wasn't expecting it to be a lot of bravado and machoism of course a lot of bravado and machoism of course a lot of bravado and machoism of course in the military in the military in the military especially the fighter community especially the fighter community especially the fighter community and we all have our plans made up to get and we all have our plans made up to get and we all have our plans made up to get out and none of it really

out and none of it really out and none of it really accounts for any type of mental health accounts for any type of mental health accounts for any type of mental health or anything like that it's all very much or anything like that it's all very much or anything like that it's all very much where am i going to get my paycheck from where am i going to get my paycheck from where am i going to get my paycheck from where am i going to move to and you know where am i going to move to and you know where am i going to move to and you know whether it's navy or just individuals whether it's navy or just individuals whether it's navy or just individuals truly understanding the difference that truly understanding the difference that truly understanding the difference that makes when i got out it was it was makes when i got out it was it was makes when i got out it was it was difficult for me i you know i think a difficult for me i you know i think a difficult for me i you know i think a lot of guys in that job when they get lot of guys in that job when they get lot of guys in that job when they get out they almost out they almost out they almost at least i i had anxiety when i got out at least i i had anxiety when i got out at least i i had anxiety when i got out because it was because it was because it was i was so used to being highly involved i was so used to being highly involved i was so used to being highly involved in something that in something that in something that um um um that you know just was i was involved that you know just was i was involved that you know just was i was involved with that when i got out i didn't know with that when i got out i didn't know with that when i got out i didn't know how to fill that space essentially you how to fill that space essentially you how to fill that space essentially you know know know um and while i wouldn't say it was an um and while i wouldn't say it was an um and while i wouldn't say it was an overly traumatic experience i think it's overly traumatic experience i think it's overly traumatic experience i think it's one that's not accounted for enough that one that's not accounted for enough that one that's not accounted for enough that people that are getting out you know so people that are getting out you know so people that are getting out you know so i would encourage them to take it i would encourage them to take it i would encourage them to take it serious and actually think about it and serious and actually think about it and serious and actually think about it and respect the change because it is a big respect the change because it is a big respect the change because it is a big one one one well well well if i may say you found a place in nature if i may say you found a place in nature if i may say you found a place in nature currently a home currently a home currently a home is there uh can you speak to that being is there uh can you speak to that being is there uh can you speak to that being a source of happiness for you absolutely a source of happiness for you absolutely a source of happiness for you absolutely an escape from the world certainly it an escape from the world certainly it an escape from the world certainly it very much is very much is very much is was it deliberate that you found it was it deliberate that you found it was it deliberate that you found it there there there that's home for me so you know i moved that's home for me so you know i moved that's home for me so you know i moved back up to the the boston area and back up to the the boston area and back up to the the boston area and my wife and i had an idea after moving my wife and i had an idea after moving my wife and i had an idea after moving about eight or nine times in the navy of about eight or nine times in the navy of about eight or nine times in the navy of kind of what we what we wanted just kind of what we what we wanted just kind of what we what we wanted just generally and it was all really about generally and it was all really about generally and it was all really about the land and not about the house you the land and not about the house you the land and not about the house you know we just wanted privacy and to be know we just wanted privacy and to be know we just wanted privacy and to be nearby nearby nearby and so we end up finding a lot of land and so we end up finding a lot of land and so we end up finding a lot of land there you know a parcel of land we put a there you know a parcel of land we put a there you know a parcel of land we put a house on it and it provides me with a

house on it and it provides me with a house on it and it provides me with a sense of peace that sense of peace that sense of peace that i think i can only get when i'm in i think i can only get when i'm in i think i can only get when i'm in nature nature nature a sense of clarity that helps me think a sense of clarity that helps me think a sense of clarity that helps me think helps me relax helps me relax helps me relax maybe so relaxing that helps me think i maybe so relaxing that helps me think i maybe so relaxing that helps me think i don't know but being surrounded by don't know but being surrounded by don't know but being surrounded by nature and birds and animals for me has nature and birds and animals for me has nature and birds and animals for me has always always always allowed me to allowed me to allowed me to i don't feel most in touch with i don't feel most in touch with i don't feel most in touch with with my own thoughts in a sense with my own thoughts in a sense with my own thoughts in a sense it just provides clarity it just provides clarity it just provides clarity and so this little sanctuary you could and so this little sanctuary you could and so this little sanctuary you could say i've built say i've built say i've built allows me to to you know interface via allows me to to you know interface via allows me to to you know interface via fiber line at my house but also feel fiber line at my house but also feel fiber line at my house but also feel like i'm a million miles away sometimes like i'm a million miles away sometimes like i'm a million miles away sometimes which is the best of both worlds hey you which is the best of both worlds hey you which is the best of both worlds hey you can just walk outside to escape it all can just walk outside to escape it all can just walk outside to escape it all yes to experience life as as yes to experience life as as yes to experience life as as hundreds of generations of human species hundreds of generations of human species hundreds of generations of human species have experienced it maybe it's a have experienced it maybe it's a have experienced it maybe it's a dichotomy my desire for the fastness of dichotomy my desire for the fastness of dichotomy my desire for the fastness of technology and experience technology and experience technology and experience compared with the most basic baseline compared with the most basic baseline compared with the most basic baseline that we have that we have that we have isn't that strange how do you how do you isn't that strange how do you how do you isn't that strange how do you how do you square that i don't know your draw how square that i don't know your draw how square that i don't know your draw how drawn you are to the cutting edge drawn you are to the cutting edge drawn you are to the cutting edge and still the calm you find in nature i and still the calm you find in nature i and still the calm you find in nature i think it makes sense nature is think it makes sense nature is think it makes sense nature is vastly superior to almost all of our vastly superior to almost all of our vastly superior to almost all of our technology technology technology it's a way it's being surrounded by it's a way it's being surrounded by it's a way it's being surrounded by perfection in a lot of senses in the military and in general have you in the military and in general have you contemplated your mortality have you contemplated your mortality have you contemplated your mortality have you been afraid of death what was what's been afraid of death what was what's been afraid of death what was what's your relationship like with death your relationship like with death your relationship like with death i was willing to accept i was willing to accept i was willing to accept an oversized amount of risk i'll say

an oversized amount of risk i'll say an oversized amount of risk i'll say when i was younger as an aviator yeah when i was younger as an aviator yeah when i was younger as an aviator yeah not not in the jet but just that was my not not in the jet but just that was my not not in the jet but just that was my life you know i felt like i was going to life you know i felt like i was going to life you know i felt like i was going to live forever live forever live forever um um um and going out in the war you know and going out in the war you know and going out in the war you know strangely didn't really change that strangely didn't really change that strangely didn't really change that because because because you know as an aviator again we're you know as an aviator again we're you know as an aviator again we're riding up high on our horse up there so there were times when i was in there were times when i was in situations that could have resulted in situations that could have resulted in situations that could have resulted in death from from flying or from emergency death from from flying or from emergency death from from flying or from emergency in the aircraft but in the aircraft but in the aircraft but i'll be honest i never really kind of i'll be honest i never really kind of i'll be honest i never really kind of sat down to think about the morale the sat down to think about the morale the sat down to think about the morale the mortality of it afterwards i feel like i mortality of it afterwards i feel like i mortality of it afterwards i feel like i kind of signed a check at the beginning kind of signed a check at the beginning kind of signed a check at the beginning and it was my job to perform as well as and it was my job to perform as well as and it was my job to perform as well as i could and if something happened in i could and if something happened in i could and if something happened in that then i better damn well be sure i that then i better damn well be sure i that then i better damn well be sure i would do my best at the time then would do my best at the time then would do my best at the time then um so you know i i maybe didn't um so you know i i maybe didn't um so you know i i maybe didn't personally reflect on it as much as of personally reflect on it as much as of personally reflect on it as much as of it i it i it i one would think you know because once one would think you know because once one would think you know because once you get in that machine it doesn't give you get in that machine it doesn't give you get in that machine it doesn't give you a lot of time to sit back and you a lot of time to sit back and you a lot of time to sit back and philosophize on philosophize on philosophize on on your current situation and that same on your current situation and that same on your current situation and that same just like we weren't seeing these off or just like we weren't seeing these off or just like we weren't seeing these off or when we seen these objects off the coast when we seen these objects off the coast when we seen these objects off the coast we weren't necessarily you know we weren't necessarily you know we weren't necessarily you know examining them every day right we'd put examining them every day right we'd put examining them every day right we'd put him into that bucket because it wasn't him into that bucket because it wasn't him into that bucket because it wasn't something that was going to kill us something that was going to kill us something that was going to kill us right away right away right away and thinking about death when you're so and thinking about death when you're so and thinking about death when you're so close to it all the time would be close to it all the time would be close to it all the time would be debilitating debilitating debilitating it would probably make you worse at your it would probably make you worse at your it would probably make you worse at your job it would well maybe you can think about death well maybe you can think about death when you look out when you go out into when you look out when you go out into when you look out when you go out into nature and think like the nature and think like the nature and think like the the the the the fact that this whole ride ends this the fact that this whole ride ends this the fact that this whole ride ends this is such a weird thing and the the old is such a weird thing and the the old is such a weird thing and the the old makes way to new

makes way to new makes way to new and that's all throughout nature and if and that's all throughout nature and if and that's all throughout nature and if you just look at the the cruelty of you just look at the the cruelty of you just look at the the cruelty of nature or the beauty of nature however nature or the beauty of nature however nature or the beauty of nature however you think about it the the fact that the you think about it the the fact that the you think about it the the fact that the the big thing eats the little thing the big thing eats the little thing the big thing eats the little thing over and over over and over over and over um and that's just how it progresses and um and that's just how it progresses and um and that's just how it progresses and that's how adaptation happens that's how adaptation happens that's how adaptation happens death is a requirement for death is a requirement for death is a requirement for uh evolution uh evolution uh evolution and you know and you know and you know whether evolution allows us to see whether evolution allows us to see whether evolution allows us to see objective reality or not objective reality or not objective reality or not it still gives you some interesting it still gives you some interesting it still gives you some interesting thoughts about perspectives of death and thoughts about perspectives of death and thoughts about perspectives of death and especially concerning it's a biological especially concerning it's a biological especially concerning it's a biological necessity as far as evolution is necessity as far as evolution is necessity as far as evolution is concerned concerned concerned yeah it's weird it's weird that uh yeah it's weird it's weird that uh yeah it's weird it's weird that uh there's been like a hundred billion there's been like a hundred billion there's been like a hundred billion people that lived before us people that lived before us people that lived before us and that you and i will be forgotten and that you and i will be forgotten and that you and i will be forgotten this whole thing we're doing right now this whole thing we're doing right now this whole thing we're doing right now is meaningless in that sense but at the is meaningless in that sense but at the is meaningless in that sense but at the same time it feels deeply meaningful same time it feels deeply meaningful same time it feels deeply meaningful somehow somehow somehow um um um i guess that that's the question i want i guess that that's the question i want i guess that that's the question i want to ask when you go out to nature to ask when you go out to nature to ask when you go out to nature family family family what do you think is the meaning of it what do you think is the meaning of it what do you think is the meaning of it all what's the meaning of life or maybe when you put on the night or maybe when you put on the night goggles the the night vision goggles and goggles the the night vision goggles and goggles the the night vision goggles and look up at the stars look up at the stars look up at the stars why we're here i can't speak for why we're here i can't speak for why we're here i can't speak for everyone but everyone but everyone but at least the way i interpret it you know at least the way i interpret it you know at least the way i interpret it you know or at least i i feel like i interpret my or at least i i feel like i interpret my or at least i i feel like i interpret my way here my job is i feel like my role way here my job is i feel like my role way here my job is i feel like my role is just to be is just to be is just to be curious about the environment in a curious about the environment in a curious about the environment in a manner that allows us to understand as manner that allows us to understand as manner that allows us to understand as much as possible much as possible much as possible i think that the human mind

i think that the human mind i think that the human mind whether it's just the mass inside our whether it's just the mass inside our whether it's just the mass inside our skull or you know whether there's some skull or you know whether there's some skull or you know whether there's some type of quantum interactions going on type of quantum interactions going on type of quantum interactions going on her mind is an incredible has incredible her mind is an incredible has incredible her mind is an incredible has incredible ability to output new information ability to output new information ability to output new information in in in in a universe that in a universe that in a universe that you know somewhat stale of information you know somewhat stale of information you know somewhat stale of information right um our our minds are and some right um our our minds are and some right um our our minds are and some somewhat unique in that we can imagine somewhat unique in that we can imagine somewhat unique in that we can imagine and perceive things that could never and perceive things that could never and perceive things that could never ever have possibly naturally occurred ever have possibly naturally occurred ever have possibly naturally occurred and yet we can make it happen we can and yet we can make it happen we can and yet we can make it happen we can substantiate that with enough belief substantiate that with enough belief substantiate that with enough belief that it's true and it can happen that it's true and it can happen that it's true and it can happen and so for me and so for me and so for me i feel like i just need to encourage i feel like i just need to encourage i feel like i just need to encourage that to encourage you know interaction that to encourage you know interaction that to encourage you know interaction with reality such that it leads us to with reality such that it leads us to with reality such that it leads us to newer and grander you know interactions newer and grander you know interactions newer and grander you know interactions with this universe with this universe with this universe and all that starts with a little bit of and all that starts with a little bit of and all that starts with a little bit of curiosity exactly curiosity exactly curiosity exactly right you're an incredible person uh right you're an incredible person uh right you're an incredible person uh you've done so many things and there's you've done so many things and there's you've done so many things and there's so much still so much still so much still still ahead of you thank you for being still ahead of you thank you for being still ahead of you thank you for being brave enough to talk about ufos brave enough to talk about ufos brave enough to talk about ufos um and doing it so seriously and thank um and doing it so seriously and thank um and doing it so seriously and thank you for pushing forward on all these you for pushing forward on all these you for pushing forward on all these fronts in terms of technology so from um fronts in terms of technology so from um fronts in terms of technology so from um just the fighter jets the the just the fighter jets the the just the fighter jets the the engineering of that engineering of that engineering of that to the aiml applications in the combat to the aiml applications in the combat to the aiml applications in the combat setting that's super interesting and setting that's super interesting and setting that's super interesting and then now quantum then now quantum then now quantum i can't wait to see to see what you do i can't wait to see to see what you do i can't wait to see to see what you do next thank you so much for sitting down next thank you so much for sitting down next thank you so much for sitting down and talking today it was an honor it was and talking today it was an honor it was and talking today it was an honor it was my pleasure thank you lex my pleasure thank you lex my pleasure thank you lex thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with lieutenant ryan graves conversation with lieutenant ryan graves conversation with lieutenant ryan graves to support this podcast please check out to support this podcast please check out to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description our sponsors in the description our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words

and now let me leave you with some words and now let me leave you with some words from buzz aldrin from buzz aldrin from buzz aldrin bravery comes along as a gradual bravery comes along as a gradual bravery comes along as a gradual accumulation of discipline accumulation of discipline accumulation of discipline thank you for listening and hope to see thank you for listening and hope to see thank you for listening and hope to see you next time