Bill Ackman: Investing, Financial Battles, Harvard, DEI, X & Free Speech | Lex Fridman Podcast #413

the only person who can cause you more the only person who can cause you more harm than a thief with a dagger is a harm than a thief with a dagger is a harm than a thief with a dagger is a journalist with a journalist with a journalist with a pen the following is a conversation with pen the following is a conversation with pen the following is a conversation with Bill Amman a legendary activist investor Bill Amman a legendary activist investor Bill Amman a legendary activist investor who has been part of some of the biggest who has been part of some of the biggest who has been part of some of the biggest and at times controversial trades in and at times controversial trades in and at times controversial trades in history also he is fearlessly vocal on X history also he is fearlessly vocal on X history also he is fearlessly vocal on X FKA Twitter and uses the platform to FKA Twitter and uses the platform to FKA Twitter and uses the platform to fight for ideas he believes in for fight for ideas he believes in for fight for ideas he believes in for example he was a central figure in the example he was a central figure in the example he was a central figure in the resignation of the president of Harvard resignation of the president of Harvard resignation of the president of Harvard University Claud Dean gay The Saga of University Claud Dean gay The Saga of University Claud Dean gay The Saga of which we discuss in this which we discuss in this which we discuss in this episode This Is The Lex Freedman podcast episode This Is The Lex Freedman podcast episode This Is The Lex Freedman podcast to support it please check out our to support it please check out our to support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear sponsors in the description and now dear sponsors in the description and now dear friends here's Bill friends here's Bill friends here's Bill Amman in your lecture on the basics of Amman in your lecture on the basics of Amman in your lecture on the basics of finance and investing you uh mention a finance and investing you uh mention a finance and investing you uh mention a book intelligent investor by Benjamin book intelligent investor by Benjamin book intelligent investor by Benjamin Graham as being formative in your life Graham as being formative in your life Graham as being formative in your life what key lesson do you take away from what key lesson do you take away from what key lesson do you take away from that book that informs your own invest that book that informs your own invest that book that informs your own invest sure actually it was the first sure actually it was the first sure actually it was the first investment book I read and uh as such it investment book I read and uh as such it investment book I read and uh as such it was kind of the inspiration for my was kind of the inspiration for my was kind of the inspiration for my career and a lot of my life so important career and a lot of my life so important career and a lot of my life so important book you know bear in mind this is sort book you know bear in mind this is sort book you know bear in mind this is sort of after the Great Depression people of after the Great Depression people of after the Great Depression people lost confidence in investing in markets lost confidence in investing in markets lost confidence in investing in markets World War Two and then he writes this World War Two and then he writes this World War Two and then he writes this book it's for like the average man and book it's for like the average man and book it's for like the average man and basically he says that you have to basically he says that you have to basically he says that you have to understand the difference between price understand the difference between price understand the difference between price and value right price is what you pay and value right price is what you pay and value right price is what you pay value is what you get and he said ' the value is what you get and he said ' the value is what you get and he said ' the stock market is here to serve you right

stock market is here to serve you right stock market is here to serve you right and it's a bit like the neighbor that and it's a bit like the neighbor that and it's a bit like the neighbor that comes by every day and makes you an comes by every day and makes you an comes by every day and makes you an offer for your house makes you a stupid offer for your house makes you a stupid offer for your house makes you a stupid offer you ignore it uh makes you a great offer you ignore it uh makes you a great offer you ignore it uh makes you a great offer you can take it and that's the offer you can take it and that's the offer you can take it and that's the stock market and the key is to figure stock market and the key is to figure stock market and the key is to figure out what something's worth and you have out what something's worth and you have out what something's worth and you have to kind of weigh it he talked about the to kind of weigh it he talked about the to kind of weigh it he talked about the difference between you said the stock difference between you said the stock difference between you said the stock market in the short term is a voting market in the short term is a voting market in the short term is a voting machine it represents speculative machine it represents speculative machine it represents speculative interests you know supply and demand of interests you know supply and demand of interests you know supply and demand of people uh in the short term term but in people uh in the short term term but in people uh in the short term term but in the long term it's the stock market's a the long term it's the stock market's a the long term it's the stock market's a weighing machine you know much more weighing machine you know much more weighing machine you know much more accurate it's going to tell you what accurate it's going to tell you what accurate it's going to tell you what something is worth and so if you can something is worth and so if you can something is worth and so if you can Divine what something's worth then you Divine what something's worth then you Divine what something's worth then you can really take advantage of the market can really take advantage of the market can really take advantage of the market because it's really here to to help you because it's really here to to help you because it's really here to to help you and that's kind of the message of the and that's kind of the message of the and that's kind of the message of the book in that same way there's a kind of book in that same way there's a kind of book in that same way there's a kind of difference between speculation and difference between speculation and difference between speculation and investing yeah speculation is just a bit investing yeah speculation is just a bit investing yeah speculation is just a bit like buying trading uh crypto right like buying trading uh crypto right like buying trading uh crypto right you're strong words well uh short-term you're strong words well uh short-term you're strong words well uh short-term trading crypto maybe in the long run trading crypto maybe in the long run trading crypto maybe in the long run there's intrinsic value but uh the you there's intrinsic value but uh the you there's intrinsic value but uh the you know it's many investors you know in a know it's many investors you know in a know it's many investors you know in a bubble going into the you know the the bubble going into the you know the the bubble going into the you know the the crash uh were really just pure crash uh were really just pure crash uh were really just pure speculators they didn't know what things speculators they didn't know what things speculators they didn't know what things were worth they just knew they were were worth they just knew they were were worth they just knew they were going up right that's speculation um and going up right that's speculation um and going up right that's speculation um and investing uh is you know doing your investing uh is you know doing your investing uh is you know doing your homework uh digging down understanding a homework uh digging down understanding a homework uh digging down understanding a business understanding the competitive business understanding the competitive business understanding the competitive dynamics of an industry understanding dynamics of an industry understanding dynamics of an industry understanding what Management's going to do what Management's going to do what Management's going to do understanding what price you're going to understanding what price you're going to understanding what price you're going to pay you know the value of anything I pay you know the value of anything I pay you know the value of anything I would say uh other than love let's say

would say uh other than love let's say would say uh other than love let's say uh is the present value of the cash you uh is the present value of the cash you uh is the present value of the cash you can take out of it over its life now can take out of it over its life now can take out of it over its life now some people think about love that way some people think about love that way some people think about love that way but it's not it's not the right way to but it's not it's not the right way to but it's not it's not the right way to think about love but it's um yeah so think about love but it's um yeah so think about love but it's um yeah so investing is about basically building a investing is about basically building a investing is about basically building a a model of what this business is going a model of what this business is going a model of what this business is going to produce over its lifetime so how do to produce over its lifetime so how do to produce over its lifetime so how do you get to that this idea of called you get to that this idea of called you get to that this idea of called value investing how do you get to the value investing how do you get to the value investing how do you get to the value of a thing even like value of a thing even like value of a thing even like philosophically value of anything really philosophically value of anything really philosophically value of anything really but we can just talk about the things but we can just talk about the things but we can just talk about the things that are on the stock market sure that are on the stock market sure that are on the stock market sure companies the value of a a security the companies the value of a a security the companies the value of a a security the value uh is the present value of the value uh is the present value of the value uh is the present value of the cash you can take out of it over its cash you can take out of it over its cash you can take out of it over its life so if you're think about a bond a life so if you're think about a bond a life so if you're think about a bond a bond you know pays a 5% coupon interest bond you know pays a 5% coupon interest bond you know pays a 5% coupon interest rate you get that let's say every year rate you get that let's say every year rate you get that let's say every year or twice a year split and half and it's or twice a year split and half and it's or twice a year split and half and it's very predictable and if it's a US very predictable and if it's a US very predictable and if it's a US Government Bond you know you're going to Government Bond you know you're going to Government Bond you know you're going to get it so that's a pretty easy thing to get it so that's a pretty easy thing to get it so that's a pretty easy thing to value a stock is an interested in a value a stock is an interested in a value a stock is an interested in a business it's like owning a piece of a business it's like owning a piece of a business it's like owning a piece of a company and a business a profitable one company and a business a profitable one company and a business a profitable one is like a bond and that it generates is like a bond and that it generates is like a bond and that it generates these coupons or these earnings or cash these coupons or these earnings or cash these coupons or these earnings or cash flow you know every year the difference flow you know every year the difference flow you know every year the difference with uh a stock and a bond is that uh with uh a stock and a bond is that uh with uh a stock and a bond is that uh the bond it's a contract you know what the bond it's a contract you know what the bond it's a contract you know what you're going to get as long as they you're going to get as long as they you're going to get as long as they don't go bankrupt in default with a don't go bankrupt in default with a don't go bankrupt in default with a stock you have to make predictions about stock you have to make predictions about stock you have to make predictions about the business you know how many widgets the business you know how many widgets the business you know how many widgets they going to sell this year how many they going to sell this year how many they going to sell this year how many going to sell next year uh what are going to sell next year uh what are going to sell next year uh what are their costs going to be how much of the their costs going to be how much of the their costs going to be how much of the money that they generate do they need to money that they generate do they need to money that they generate do they need to reinvest in the business to keep the reinvest in the business to keep the reinvest in the business to keep the business going um and uh that's more business going um and uh that's more business going um and uh that's more complicated um but you know what we do

complicated um but you know what we do complicated um but you know what we do is we try to find businesses where with is we try to find businesses where with is we try to find businesses where with a very high degree of confidence we know a very high degree of confidence we know a very high degree of confidence we know what those cash flows are going to be what those cash flows are going to be what those cash flows are going to be for a very long time and there few for a very long time and there few for a very long time and there few businesses that you can have a really businesses that you can have a really businesses that you can have a really high degree of certainty about as a high degree of certainty about as a high degree of certainty about as a result you know many Investments are result you know many Investments are result you know many Investments are speculations because it's really very speculations because it's really very speculations because it's really very difficult to predict the future so we difficult to predict the future so we difficult to predict the future so we what we do for a living what I do for a what we do for a living what I do for a what we do for a living what I do for a living is find those rare companies that living is find those rare companies that living is find those rare companies that you can kind of predict what they're you can kind of predict what they're you can kind of predict what they're going to look like over a very long going to look like over a very long going to look like over a very long period of time so what are the period of time so what are the period of time so what are the factors that indicate that a company is factors that indicate that a company is factors that indicate that a company is something is going to be something something is going to be something something is going to be something that's going to make a lot of money it's that's going to make a lot of money it's that's going to make a lot of money it's going to have a lot of value and it's going to have a lot of value and it's going to have a lot of value and it's going to be reliable over a long period going to be reliable over a long period going to be reliable over a long period of time and what is your process of of time and what is your process of of time and what is your process of figuring out whether a company is or figuring out whether a company is or figuring out whether a company is or isn't that so every consumer has a view isn't that so every consumer has a view isn't that so every consumer has a view on different brands and different on different brands and different on different brands and different companies and you know what we look for companies and you know what we look for companies and you know what we look for are sort of these non-d disruptable are sort of these non-d disruptable are sort of these non-d disruptable businesses a business where you can kind businesses a business where you can kind businesses a business where you can kind of close your eyes stock market shuts of close your eyes stock market shuts of close your eyes stock market shuts for a decade and you know that 10 years for a decade and you know that 10 years for a decade and you know that 10 years from now it's going to be a more from now it's going to be a more from now it's going to be a more valuable more profitable company so we valuable more profitable company so we valuable more profitable company so we own a business called Universal Music own a business called Universal Music own a business called Universal Music Group uh it's in the business of helping Group uh it's in the business of helping Group uh it's in the business of helping artists become Global artists uh artists become Global artists uh artists become Global artists uh recorded music business uh and it's in recorded music business uh and it's in recorded music business uh and it's in the business of you know owning rights the business of you know owning rights the business of you know owning rights uh to sort of the music publishing uh to sort of the music publishing uh to sort of the music publishing rights of rights of rights of songwriters and you know I think music songwriters and you know I think music songwriters and you know I think music is forever right music is is a many is forever right music is is a many is forever right music is is a many Thousand-Year old uh human part of the Thousand-Year old uh human part of the Thousand-Year old uh human part of the human experience and I think it will be human experience and I think it will be human experience and I think it will be you know thousands of years from now and

you know thousands of years from now and you know thousands of years from now and so that's a pretty good backdrop to so that's a pretty good backdrop to so that's a pretty good backdrop to invest uh in a company and the company invest uh in a company and the company invest uh in a company and the company basically owns a third of the global basically owns a third of the global basically owns a third of the global recorded music that's you know the most recorded music that's you know the most recorded music that's you know the most dominant sort of market share in the dominant sort of market share in the dominant sort of market share in the business they're the best at taking an business they're the best at taking an business they're the best at taking an artist who's 18 years old has got a artist who's 18 years old has got a artist who's 18 years old has got a great voice and has started to get a great voice and has started to get a great voice and has started to get a presence on YouTube and uh Instagram and presence on YouTube and uh Instagram and presence on YouTube and uh Instagram and helping that artist become a superstar helping that artist become a superstar helping that artist become a superstar and that's a unique talent and and the and that's a unique talent and and the and that's a unique talent and and the result is the best artist in the world result is the best artist in the world result is the best artist in the world want to come work for them but they also want to come work for them but they also want to come work for them but they also have this incredible library of you know have this incredible library of you know have this incredible library of you know the Beatles the rolling ston YouTube Etc the Beatles the rolling ston YouTube Etc the Beatles the rolling ston YouTube Etc so and then if you think about um what so and then if you think about um what so and then if you think about um what music has become used to be about music has become used to be about music has become used to be about records and CDs and you know eight track records and CDs and you know eight track records and CDs and you know eight track tapes for those of whom it was about a tapes for those of whom it was about a tapes for those of whom it was about a new format and that's how they drive new format and that's how they drive new format and that's how they drive sales and it's become a business which sales and it's become a business which sales and it's become a business which is like the podcast business about is like the podcast business about is like the podcast business about streaming and you can streaming is a lot streaming and you can streaming is a lot streaming and you can streaming is a lot more predictable than what than selling more predictable than what than selling more predictable than what than selling records right you can sort of say okay records right you can sort of say okay records right you can sort of say okay how many people have smartphones how how many people have smartphones how how many people have smartphones how many people going to have smartphones many people going to have smartphones many people going to have smartphones next year there's a kind of global next year there's a kind of global next year there's a kind of global penetration over time of smartphones you penetration over time of smartphones you penetration over time of smartphones you pay call 10 11 bucks a month for a pay call 10 11 bucks a month for a pay call 10 11 bucks a month for a subscription or last for a family plan subscription or last for a family plan subscription or last for a family plan and you can kind of build a model what and you can kind of build a model what and you can kind of build a model what the world looks like and predict you the world looks like and predict you the world looks like and predict you know the growth of the streaming know the growth of the streaming know the growth of the streaming business you predict what kind of market business you predict what kind of market business you predict what kind of market share univers is going to have over time share univers is going to have over time share univers is going to have over time and you you can't get to a precise view and you you can't get to a precise view and you you can't get to a precise view of value you can get to an approximation of value you can get to an approximation of value you can get to an approximation and the key is to buy at a price that and the key is to buy at a price that and the key is to buy at a price that represents a big discount to that

represents a big discount to that represents a big discount to that approximation and that gets back to Ben approximation and that gets back to Ben approximation and that gets back to Ben Graham Ben Graham was about what he Graham Ben Graham was about what he Graham Ben Graham was about what he called uh invented this concept of called uh invented this concept of called uh invented this concept of margin of safety right you want to buy a margin of safety right you want to buy a margin of safety right you want to buy a company at a price that if you're wrong company at a price that if you're wrong company at a price that if you're wrong about what you think it's worth and it about what you think it's worth and it about what you think it's worth and it turns out to be worth 30% less you paid turns out to be worth 30% less you paid turns out to be worth 30% less you paid a deep enough discount to your estimate a deep enough discount to your estimate a deep enough discount to your estimate that you're still okay it's about that you're still okay it's about that you're still okay it's about investing a big part of investing is not investing a big part of investing is not investing a big part of investing is not losing money if you can avoid losing losing money if you can avoid losing losing money if you can avoid losing money and then have a few great hits you money and then have a few great hits you money and then have a few great hits you can do very very well over time well can do very very well over time well can do very very well over time well music is interesting because uh yes music is interesting because uh yes music is interesting because uh yes music's been around for a very long time music's been around for a very long time music's been around for a very long time but the way to make money from music has but the way to make money from music has but the way to make money from music has been evolving like you mentioned been evolving like you mentioned been evolving like you mentioned streaming there's a big transition streaming there's a big transition streaming there's a big transition initiated by I guess Napster that initiated by I guess Napster that initiated by I guess Napster that created Spotify of how you make money on created Spotify of how you make money on created Spotify of how you make money on music W with with apple and with all of music W with with apple and with all of music W with with apple and with all of this and the question is how well are this and the question is how well are this and the question is how well are companies like umg able to adjust to companies like umg able to adjust to companies like umg able to adjust to such Transformations one I could ask you such Transformations one I could ask you such Transformations one I could ask you about the future which is uh Artificial about the future which is uh Artificial about the future which is uh Artificial Intelligence being able to generate Intelligence being able to generate Intelligence being able to generate music for example there have been a lot music for example there have been a lot music for example there have been a lot of amazing advancements with so do you of amazing advancements with so do you of amazing advancements with so do you have to also think about that like when have to also think about that like when have to also think about that like when you close your eyes all the things you you close your eyes all the things you you close your eyes all the things you think about are you imagining the think about are you imagining the think about are you imagining the possible ways that the the future is possible ways that the the future is possible ways that the the future is completely different from the the completely different from the the completely different from the the present and how well this company will present and how well this company will present and how well this company will be able to like surf the wave of that be able to like surf the wave of that be able to like surf the wave of that sure and they've had to Surf a lot of sure and they've had to Surf a lot of sure and they've had to Surf a lot of waves and actually the music business waves and actually the music business waves and actually the music business peaked the last time in like the late peaked the last time in like the late peaked the last time in like the late '90s or 2000 time frame and then really '90s or 2000 time frame and then really '90s or 2000 time frame and then really Innovation Napster digitization of Music

Innovation Napster digitization of Music Innovation Napster digitization of Music almost killed the industry and Universal almost killed the industry and Universal almost killed the industry and Universal really LED an effort to save the really LED an effort to save the really LED an effort to save the industry and actually made an early deal industry and actually made an early deal industry and actually made an early deal with uh Spotify that enabled you know with uh Spotify that enabled you know with uh Spotify that enabled you know the uh the industry to really recover the uh the industry to really recover the uh the industry to really recover and so by virtue of their Market and so by virtue of their Market and so by virtue of their Market position and their credibility and their position and their credibility and their position and their credibility and their willingness to kind of adopt new willingness to kind of adopt new willingness to kind of adopt new technologies they've kept their position technologies they've kept their position technologies they've kept their position now they of course had this huge now they of course had this huge now they of course had this huge Advantage because I think the Beatles Advantage because I think the Beatles Advantage because I think the Beatles are forever I think You2 is forever I are forever I think You2 is forever I are forever I think You2 is forever I think Rolling Stones are forever um so think Rolling Stones are forever um so think Rolling Stones are forever um so they had a a nice base of of assets that they had a a nice base of of assets that they had a a nice base of of assets that were important and I think will forever were important and I think will forever were important and I think will forever be and forever is a long time but you be and forever is a long time but you be and forever is a long time but you know know know the uh again there's enormous there are the uh again there's enormous there are the uh again there's enormous there are all kinds of risks in every business all kinds of risks in every business all kinds of risks in every business this is one that I think has a very high this is one that I think has a very high this is one that I think has a very high degree of persistence and I can't degree of persistence and I can't degree of persistence and I can't Envision a world where Beyond streaming Envision a world where Beyond streaming Envision a world where Beyond streaming in a sense now you may have a neural in a sense now you may have a neural in a sense now you may have a neural link chip in your head that instead of a link chip in your head that instead of a link chip in your head that instead of a phone but the the music's going to come phone but the the music's going to come phone but the the music's going to come in a digitized you know kind of format in a digitized you know kind of format in a digitized you know kind of format you're going to want to have an infinite you're going to want to have an infinite you're going to want to have an infinite library that you can walk around in your library that you can walk around in your library that you can walk around in your pocket or in your brain it's not going pocket or in your brain it's not going pocket or in your brain it's not going to matter that much if the form factor to matter that much if the form factor to matter that much if the form factor you know the device changes um it's not you know the device changes um it's not you know the device changes um it's not really that important whether it's really that important whether it's really that important whether it's Spotify or apple or Amazon uh that are Spotify or apple or Amazon uh that are Spotify or apple or Amazon uh that are the so-called uh dsps or the or the the so-called uh dsps or the or the the so-called uh dsps or the or the providers uh I think the value is really providers uh I think the value is really providers uh I think the value is really going to uh reside in the in the content going to uh reside in the in the content going to uh reside in the in the content owners and that's really the artists uh owners and that's really the artists uh owners and that's really the artists uh and the label and I actually think AI is and the label and I actually think AI is and the label and I actually think AI is not going to be the primary creator of not going to be the primary creator of not going to be the primary creator of music I think we're going to actually music I think we're going to actually music I think we're going to actually face the reality that it's not that

face the reality that it's not that face the reality that it's not that music has been around for a th thousands music has been around for a th thousands music has been around for a th thousands of years but musicians and music has of years but musicians and music has of years but musicians and music has been around like we actually care to been around like we actually care to been around like we actually care to know who's the musician that created it know who's the musician that created it know who's the musician that created it just like we want to know that Who's the just like we want to know that Who's the just like we want to know that Who's the artist human artist that created a piece artist human artist that created a piece artist human artist that created a piece of art totally agree and I think if you of art totally agree and I think if you of art totally agree and I think if you think about it there's other lots of think about it there's other lots of think about it there's other lots of other other other Technologies uh and computers that have Technologies uh and computers that have Technologies uh and computers that have been used to generate music over time been used to generate music over time been used to generate music over time but no one wants to No One falls in love but no one wants to No One falls in love but no one wants to No One falls in love with a computer generated track right um with a computer generated track right um with a computer generated track right um and you know Taylor Swift you know you and you know Taylor Swift you know you and you know Taylor Swift you know you know incredible music but it's also know incredible music but it's also know incredible music but it's also about the artist and her story and her about the artist and her story and her about the artist and her story and her physical presence and you know the uh physical presence and you know the uh physical presence and you know the uh the live experience I don't think you're the live experience I don't think you're the live experience I don't think you're going to sit there uh and someone's going to sit there uh and someone's going to sit there uh and someone's going to put computer up on stage going to put computer up on stage going to put computer up on stage and then and it's going to play and and then and it's going to play and and then and it's going to play and people are going to get excited around people are going to get excited around people are going to get excited around it so I think AI is really going to be a it so I think AI is really going to be a it so I think AI is really going to be a tool to make artists better artists um tool to make artists better artists um tool to make artists better artists um and and uh you know the I think uh like and and uh you know the I think uh like and and uh you know the I think uh like a synthesizer right uh really created a synthesizer right uh really created a synthesizer right uh really created the opportunity for you know one man to the opportunity for you know one man to the opportunity for you know one man to have an orchestra um maybe a bit of a have an orchestra um maybe a bit of a have an orchestra um maybe a bit of a threat to uh a threat to uh a threat to uh a percussionist um but maybe not maybe it percussionist um but maybe not maybe it percussionist um but maybe not maybe it drove even more demand for for for the drove even more demand for for for the drove even more demand for for for the live experience unless that computer has live experience unless that computer has live experience unless that computer has humanlike sence which I believe is a humanlike sence which I believe is a humanlike sence which I believe is a real possibility but then it's really real possibility but then it's really real possibility but then it's really from a business perspective no different from a business perspective no different from a business perspective no different than a human if it has an identity than a human if it has an identity than a human if it has an identity that's basically Fame and influence and that's basically Fame and influence and that's basically Fame and influence and there'll be a robot Taylor Swift and it

there'll be a robot Taylor Swift and it there'll be a robot Taylor Swift and it doesn't copyrightable asset I would doesn't copyrightable asset I would doesn't copyrightable asset I would think MH right yeah and then there'll be think MH right yeah and then there'll be think MH right yeah and then there'll be not sure that's a world I'm excited not sure that's a world I'm excited not sure that's a world I'm excited that's a different discussion um the that's a different discussion um the that's a different discussion um the world is not going to ask your world is not going to ask your world is not going to ask your permission to become what it's is permission to become what it's is permission to become what it's is becoming so uh but you can still make becoming so uh but you can still make becoming so uh but you can still make money on it uh presumably there'd be a money on it uh presumably there'd be a money on it uh presumably there'd be a capital system and there would be some capital system and there would be some capital system and there would be some laws under which AI which I believe AI laws under which AI which I believe AI laws under which AI which I believe AI systems will have rights that are akin systems will have rights that are akin systems will have rights that are akin to Human Rights and we're going to have to Human Rights and we're going to have to Human Rights and we're going to have to contend with what that means well to contend with what that means well to contend with what that means well there's sort of name and likeness rights there's sort of name and likeness rights there's sort of name and likeness rights yes right that have to be protected now yes right that have to be protected now yes right that have to be protected now can a name be attributed to a a Tesla can a name be attributed to a a Tesla can a name be attributed to a a Tesla robot I don't know I think so I think robot I don't know I think so I think robot I don't know I think so I think it's quite obvious to okay those are it's quite obvious to okay those are it's quite obvious to okay those are more more potential artists for us to more more potential artists for us to more more potential artists for us to represent at universe exactly exactly represent at universe exactly exactly represent at universe exactly exactly all right that's sort of one example all right that's sort of one example all right that's sort of one example another example could be just you know another example could be just you know another example could be just you know the restaurant industry right if you can the restaurant industry right if you can the restaurant industry right if you can you look at businesses like a McDonald's you look at businesses like a McDonald's you look at businesses like a McDonald's right it's a whatever the company's like right it's a whatever the company's like right it's a whatever the company's like a a a 1950 vintage business and here we are 1950 vintage business and here we are 1950 vintage business and here we are it's you know 75 years later and uh you it's you know 75 years later and uh you it's you know 75 years later and uh you can kind of predict what it's going to can kind of predict what it's going to can kind of predict what it's going to look like over time and the menu is look like over time and the menu is look like over time and the menu is going to you adjust over time to going to you adjust over time to going to you adjust over time to Consumer tastes and but I think the Consumer tastes and but I think the Consumer tastes and but I think the hamburger and fries is probably hamburger and fries is probably hamburger and fries is probably Forever The Beetles The Rolling Stones Forever The Beetles The Rolling Stones Forever The Beetles The Rolling Stones the hamburger and fries are forever I the hamburger and fries are forever I the hamburger and fries are forever I was uh eating at Chipotle last night as was uh eating at Chipotle last night as was uh eating at Chipotle last night as I Was preparing know EXC thank you thank I Was preparing know EXC thank you thank I Was preparing know EXC thank you thank you and uh yeah it is it is one of my you and uh yeah it is it is one of my you and uh yeah it is it is one of my favorite places to eat you said it is a favorite places to eat you said it is a favorite places to eat you said it is a place that you eat you obviously also place that you eat you obviously also place that you eat you obviously also invest in it uh what do you get at invest in it uh what do you get at invest in it uh what do you get at Chipotle I tend to get a double chicken Chipotle I tend to get a double chicken Chipotle I tend to get a double chicken bowl or burrito um I I like the burrito

bowl or burrito um I I like the burrito bowl or burrito um I I like the burrito but I I generally try to order the bowl but I I generally try to order the bowl but I I generally try to order the bowl yeah cut the carb for heal reasons all yeah cut the carb for heal reasons all yeah cut the carb for heal reasons all right and uh you know double chicken right and uh you know double chicken right and uh you know double chicken quac lettuce black beans and uh I'm I'm quac lettuce black beans and uh I'm I'm quac lettuce black beans and uh I'm I'm more of a steak guy just just putting more of a steak guy just just putting more of a steak guy just just putting that on the rec that on the rec that on the rec record uh what's the actual process you record uh what's the actual process you record uh what's the actual process you go through like literally go through like literally go through like literally like the process of figuring out what like the process of figuring out what like the process of figuring out what the value of a company is like how do the value of a company is like how do the value of a company is like how do you do the research is it reading you do the research is it reading you do the research is it reading documents is it talking to people is how documents is it talking to people is how documents is it talking to people is how do you do it so all the B so Chipotle do you do it so all the B so Chipotle do you do it so all the B so Chipotle What attracted us initially is a stock What attracted us initially is a stock What attracted us initially is a stock price dropped by about 50% uh great price dropped by about 50% uh great price dropped by about 50% uh great company great concept um cons you know company great concept um cons you know company great concept um cons you know athletes love it consumers love it athletes love it consumers love it athletes love it consumers love it healthy sustainable uh fresh food made healthy sustainable uh fresh food made healthy sustainable uh fresh food made in front of your eyes and uh you know in front of your eyes and uh you know in front of your eyes and uh you know great Steve ell's the founder did an great Steve ell's the founder did an great Steve ell's the founder did an amazing job but ultimately the company's amazing job but ultimately the company's amazing job but ultimately the company's lacking some of the systems and had a lacking some of the systems and had a lacking some of the systems and had a food safety issue consumers got sick food safety issue consumers got sick food safety issue consumers got sick almost killed the almost killed the almost killed the rent uh but the reality of the fast food rent uh but the reality of the fast food rent uh but the reality of the fast food quick service industry is almost every quick service industry is almost every quick service industry is almost every fast food company has had a food safety fast food company has had a food safety fast food company has had a food safety issue over time and the vast majority issue over time and the vast majority issue over time and the vast majority have survived uh and we said look such a have survived uh and we said look such a have survived uh and we said look such a great concept but they they you know great concept but they they you know great concept but they they you know their approach was not was far from their approach was not was far from their approach was not was far from ideal but we start with usually reading ideal but we start with usually reading ideal but we start with usually reading the SEC violing so companies file a 10K the SEC violing so companies file a 10K the SEC violing so companies file a 10K or an annual report they file these or an annual report they file these or an annual report they file these quarterly reports called 10 Q's they quarterly reports called 10 Q's they quarterly reports called 10 Q's they have a proxy statement which describes have a proxy statement which describes have a proxy statement which describes kind of the governance the board kind of the governance the board kind of the governance the board structure um conference call transcripts structure um conference call transcripts structure um conference call transcripts are publicly available it's kind of very

are publicly available it's kind of very are publicly available it's kind of very helpful to go back five years and kind helpful to go back five years and kind helpful to go back five years and kind of learn the story you know here's how of learn the story you know here's how of learn the story you know here's how management describes their business management describes their business management describes their business here's what they say they're going to do here's what they say they're going to do here's what they say they're going to do then you can follow along to see what then you can follow along to see what then you can follow along to see what they do uh it's like a historical record they do uh it's like a historical record they do uh it's like a historical record of you know of how competent and uh of you know of how competent and uh of you know of how competent and uh truthful they are you it's a very useful truthful they are you it's a very useful truthful they are you it's a very useful device and then of course looking at device and then of course looking at device and then of course looking at competitors uh and thinking about you competitors uh and thinking about you competitors uh and thinking about you know who could what could dislodge this know who could what could dislodge this know who could what could dislodge this company um uh you know and then we'll company um uh you know and then we'll company um uh you know and then we'll talk to if it's an industry we don't talk to if it's an industry we don't talk to if it's an industry we don't know well we know the restaurant know well we know the restaurant know well we know the restaurant industry really well music industry you industry really well music industry you industry really well music industry you know we'll talk to people in the know we'll talk to people in the know we'll talk to people in the industry we'll try to understand you industry we'll try to understand you industry we'll try to understand you know the difference between publishing know the difference between publishing know the difference between publishing and recorded music we'll look at the and recorded music we'll look at the and recorded music we'll look at the competitors um we'll talk to we'll read competitors um we'll talk to we'll read competitors um we'll talk to we'll read books you I read a book about the music books you I read a book about the music books you I read a book about the music industry or a couple books about the industry or a couple books about the industry or a couple books about the industry um so it's it's a bit like a industry um so it's it's a bit like a industry um so it's it's a bit like a big research project uh and you there big research project uh and you there big research project uh and you there these so-called expert networks now and these so-called expert networks now and these so-called expert networks now and you can get pretty much anyone on the you can get pretty much anyone on the you can get pretty much anyone on the phone uh and they'll talk to you about phone uh and they'll talk to you about phone uh and they'll talk to you about an aspect of the industry that you don't an aspect of the industry that you don't an aspect of the industry that you don't understand want to learn more about uh understand want to learn more about uh understand want to learn more about uh try to get a sense you know public try to get a sense you know public try to get a sense you know public filings of companies generally give you filings of companies generally give you filings of companies generally give you a lot of information but not everything a lot of information but not everything a lot of information but not everything you want to know and you can learn more you want to know and you can learn more you want to know and you can learn more by talking to experts about some of the by talking to experts about some of the by talking to experts about some of the industry Dynamics the personalities you industry Dynamics the personalities you industry Dynamics the personalities you want to get a sense of management uh I want to get a sense of management uh I want to get a sense of management uh I like watching you know podcasts if a CEO like watching you know podcasts if a CEO like watching you know podcasts if a CEO were to do a podcast or a YouTube were to do a podcast or a YouTube were to do a podcast or a YouTube interview you get a sense of the people interview you get a sense of the people interview you get a sense of the people so in the case of Chipotle for example so in the case of Chipotle for example so in the case of Chipotle for example by the way I could talk about Chipotle by the way I could talk about Chipotle by the way I could talk about Chipotle all day I just love it I love it I wish all day I just love it I love it I wish all day I just love it I love it I wish there was a there was a there was a sponsor uh I'll mention it to the CEO

sponsor uh I'll mention it to the CEO sponsor uh I'll mention it to the CEO don't make promises you can't keep Bill don't make promises you can't keep Bill don't make promises you can't keep Bill I'm not making can't Brian Nichol is a I'm not making can't Brian Nichol is a I'm not making can't Brian Nichol is a fantastic CEO he's not going to spend fantastic CEO he's not going to spend fantastic CEO he's not going to spend one doar that he doesn't think is the one doar that he doesn't think is the one doar that he doesn't think is the company's best interest all right all I company's best interest all right all I company's best interest all right all I want is free Chipotle come on want is free Chipotle come on want is free Chipotle come on now uh what was I saying oh and so you now uh what was I saying oh and so you now uh what was I saying oh and so you look at a company like Chipotle and then look at a company like Chipotle and then look at a company like Chipotle and then you see there's a difficult moment in you see there's a difficult moment in you see there's a difficult moment in its history like you said that uh there its history like you said that uh there its history like you said that uh there was a food safety issue and then you say was a food safety issue and then you say was a food safety issue and then you say okay well I see a path where we can fix okay well I see a path where we can fix okay well I see a path where we can fix this and therefore even though the price this and therefore even though the price this and therefore even though the price is low we can get it to where the price is low we can get it to where the price is low we can get it to where the price goes up to its value MH so the kind of goes up to its value MH so the kind of goes up to its value MH so the kind of business we're looking for is sort of business we're looking for is sort of business we're looking for is sort of the kind of business everyone should be the kind of business everyone should be the kind of business everyone should be looking for right a great business it's looking for right a great business it's looking for right a great business it's got a long-term trajectory of growth out got a long-term trajectory of growth out got a long-term trajectory of growth out into the for you know even beyond the into the for you know even beyond the into the for you know even beyond the fores seable distance right those are fores seable distance right those are fores seable distance right those are the kind of businesses you want to own the kind of businesses you want to own the kind of businesses you want to own you want businesses that generate a lot you want businesses that generate a lot you want businesses that generate a lot of cash you want businesses you can of cash you want businesses you can of cash you want businesses you can easily understand you want businesses easily understand you want businesses easily understand you want businesses with these sort of huge barriers to with these sort of huge barriers to with these sort of huge barriers to entry where it's difficult for others to entry where it's difficult for others to entry where it's difficult for others to compete you want companies that don't compete you want companies that don't compete you want companies that don't have to constantly raise Capital um and have to constantly raise Capital um and have to constantly raise Capital um and these are some of the great businesses these are some of the great businesses these are some of the great businesses of the world but people have figured out of the world but people have figured out of the world but people have figured out that those are the great businesses so that those are the great businesses so that those are the great businesses so the problem is those companies tend to the problem is those companies tend to the problem is those companies tend to have very high stock prices and the have very high stock prices and the have very high stock prices and the value is generally built into the price value is generally built into the price value is generally built into the price you have to pay for the business so we you have to pay for the business so we you have to pay for the business so we we can't earn the kind of returns we we can't earn the kind of returns we we can't earn the kind of returns we want to earn for investors by paying a want to earn for investors by paying a want to earn for investors by paying a really high price price matters a lot really high price price matters a lot really high price price matters a lot you can buy the best business in the you can buy the best business in the you can buy the best business in the world and if you overpay you're not world and if you overpay you're not world and if you overpay you're not going to earn particularly attractive going to earn particularly attractive going to earn particularly attractive returns so we get involved in cases returns so we get involved in cases returns so we get involved in cases where a great business has kind of made

where a great business has kind of made where a great business has kind of made a big mistake or or you a company that's a big mistake or or you a company that's a big mistake or or you a company that's kind of lost its way but it's kind of lost its way but it's kind of lost its way but it's recoverable and that's we buy from recoverable and that's we buy from recoverable and that's we buy from shareholders who are disappointed who've shareholders who are disappointed who've shareholders who are disappointed who've lost confidence selling at a low price lost confidence selling at a low price lost confidence selling at a low price relative to what it's worth if fixed and relative to what it's worth if fixed and relative to what it's worth if fixed and then we try to be helpful in fixing the then we try to be helpful in fixing the then we try to be helpful in fixing the company you said that uh barriers to company you said that uh barriers to company you said that uh barriers to entry you said a lot of really entry you said a lot of really entry you said a lot of really interesting qualities of companies very interesting qualities of companies very interesting qualities of companies very quickly in a sequence of statements that quickly in a sequence of statements that quickly in a sequence of statements that took like less than 10 seconds to say took like less than 10 seconds to say took like less than 10 seconds to say but some of them were fascina all of but some of them were fascina all of but some of them were fascina all of them were fascinating so you said them were fascinating so you said them were fascinating so you said barriers to entry how do you know if barriers to entry how do you know if barriers to entry how do you know if there's a type of moat there's a type of moat there's a type of moat protecting of the the competitors from protecting of the the competitors from protecting of the the competitors from stepping up to the plate I mean the most stepping up to the plate I mean the most stepping up to the plate I mean the most difficult analysis to do as an investor difficult analysis to do as an investor difficult analysis to do as an investor is that is kind of figuring out how wide is that is kind of figuring out how wide is that is kind of figuring out how wide is the moat how you know how much at is the moat how you know how much at is the moat how you know how much at risk is the business to disruption and risk is the business to disruption and risk is the business to disruption and we're in I would say a period the we're in I would say a period the we're in I would say a period the greatest period of disrupt ability in greatest period of disrupt ability in greatest period of disrupt ability in history right history right history right technology you know a couple of technology you know a couple of technology you know a couple of 19-year-olds can you know leave whatever 19-year-olds can you know leave whatever 19-year-olds can you know leave whatever University or maybe they didn't even go University or maybe they didn't even go University or maybe they didn't even go in the first place in the first place in the first place uh they can raise you know millions of uh they can raise you know millions of uh they can raise you know millions of dollars uh they can get access to dollars uh they can get access to dollars uh they can get access to infinite uh bandwidth storage uh they infinite uh bandwidth storage uh they infinite uh bandwidth storage uh they can contract with uh engineers in can contract with uh engineers in can contract with uh engineers in lowcost markets around the world they lowcost markets around the world they lowcost markets around the world they can build a virtual company and they can can build a virtual company and they can can build a virtual company and they can disrupt businesses that seem super disrupt businesses that seem super disrupt businesses that seem super established over time and then on top of established over time and then on top of established over time and then on top of that you have major companies with that you have major companies with that you have major companies with multi-trillion dollar market caps

multi-trillion dollar market caps multi-trillion dollar market caps working to find profits wherever they working to find profits wherever they working to find profits wherever they can and so that's a dangerous World in a can and so that's a dangerous World in a can and so that's a dangerous World in a way to be an investor and so you want to way to be an investor and so you want to way to be an investor and so you want to you have to find businesses that it's you have to find businesses that it's you have to find businesses that it's hard to foresee a world in which they hard to foresee a world in which they hard to foresee a world in which they get disrupted and the beauty of the get disrupted and the beauty of the get disrupted and the beauty of the restaurant business and we've actually restaurant business and we've actually restaurant business and we've actually our best track record is in restaurants our best track record is in restaurants our best track record is in restaurants we've never lost money uh we've only we've never lost money uh we've only we've never lost money uh we've only made a fortune interestingly investing made a fortune interestingly investing made a fortune interestingly investing restaurants a big part of it it's a restaurants a big part of it it's a restaurants a big part of it it's a really simple business and if you you really simple business and if you you really simple business and if you you know get your pootle right and you're at know get your pootle right and you're at know get your pootle right and you're at a 100 stores you know it's not so hard a 100 stores you know it's not so hard a 100 stores you know it's not so hard to Envision getting to 200 stores and to Envision getting to 200 stores and to Envision getting to 200 stores and then getting to 500 stores right and the then getting to 500 stores right and the then getting to 500 stores right and the key is maintaining the brand image key is maintaining the brand image key is maintaining the brand image growing intelligently having the right growing intelligently having the right growing intelligently having the right systems uh you know now when you go from systems uh you know now when you go from systems uh you know now when you go from 100 stores to 3500 stores you have to 100 stores to 3500 stores you have to 100 stores to 3500 stores you have to know what you're doing there's a lot of know what you're doing there's a lot of know what you're doing there's a lot of complexity right you know if you think complexity right you know if you think complexity right you know if you think about your local restaurant uh you know about your local restaurant uh you know about your local restaurant uh you know the family's working in the business the family's working in the business the family's working in the business they're they're watching the cash they're they're watching the cash they're they're watching the cash register and you can probably open register and you can probably open register and you can probably open another restaurant you know across town another restaurant you know across town another restaurant you know across town but there are very few restaurant but there are very few restaurant but there are very few restaurant operators that own more than a few operators that own more than a few operators that own more than a few restaurants and operate them restaurants and operate them restaurants and operate them successfully and the and the quick successfully and the and the quick successfully and the and the quick service business is about systems service business is about systems service business is about systems and building a model that uh a stranger and building a model that uh a stranger and building a model that uh a stranger who doesn't know the restaurant industry who doesn't know the restaurant industry who doesn't know the restaurant industry can come in and enter the business and can come in and enter the business and can come in and enter the business and build a successful uh successful build a successful uh successful build a successful uh successful franchise now Chipotle is not a franchise now Chipotle is not a franchise now Chipotle is not a franchise company they actually own all franchise company they actually own all franchise company they actually own all their own stores but many of the most their own stores but many of the most their own stores but many of the most successful restaurant companies or successful restaurant companies or successful restaurant companies or franchise models like a Burger King a franchise models like a Burger King a franchise models like a Burger King a McDonald's Tim Horton you know all these McDonald's Tim Horton you know all these McDonald's Tim Horton you know all these various Brands Popeyes and there it's various Brands Popeyes and there it's various Brands Popeyes and there it's about systems but the same systems apply

about systems but the same systems apply about systems but the same systems apply whether you own all the stores and it's whether you own all the stores and it's whether you own all the stores and it's run by a big Corporation or whether the run by a big Corporation or whether the run by a big Corporation or whether the owners of the restaurants are are sort owners of the restaurants are are sort owners of the restaurants are are sort of franchisees you know local of franchisees you know local of franchisees you know local entrepreneurs so if the restaurant has entrepreneurs so if the restaurant has entrepreneurs so if the restaurant has scaled to a certain number that means scaled to a certain number that means scaled to a certain number that means they've figured out some kind of system they've figured out some kind of system they've figured out some kind of system that works it's very difficult to that works it's very difficult to that works it's very difficult to develop that kind of system so that's a develop that kind of system so that's a develop that kind of system so that's a moe a moe is you get to a certain scale moe a moe is you get to a certain scale moe a moe is you get to a certain scale and you do it successfully and the brand and you do it successfully and the brand and you do it successfully and the brand is now in the in the understood by the is now in the in the understood by the is now in the in the understood by the consumer and what's interesting about consumer and what's interesting about consumer and what's interesting about Chipotle is what they've achieved is Chipotle is what they've achieved is Chipotle is what they've achieved is difficult right they're not buying difficult right they're not buying difficult right they're not buying frozen hamburgers getting shipped in frozen hamburgers getting shipped in frozen hamburgers getting shipped in they're buying fresh you know they're buying fresh you know they're buying fresh you know sustainably sourced ingredients the sustainably sourced ingredients the sustainably sourced ingredients the preparing food in the store that was the preparing food in the store that was the preparing food in the store that was the first right the quality of the product first right the quality of the product first right the quality of the product that chipotle is incredible it's the that chipotle is incredible it's the that chipotle is incredible it's the highest quality food you can get for you highest quality food you can get for you highest quality food you can get for you can get a serious dinner for under 20 can get a serious dinner for under 20 can get a serious dinner for under 20 bucks uh and eat really Health you know bucks uh and eat really Health you know bucks uh and eat really Health you know healthfully and very high quality healthfully and very high quality healthfully and very high quality ingredients and that's just not ingredients and that's just not ingredients and that's just not available anywhere else and it's very available anywhere else and it's very available anywhere else and it's very hard to replicate and to build those hard to replicate and to build those hard to replicate and to build those relationships with you know Farmers relationships with you know Farmers relationships with you know Farmers around the country it's a lot easier to around the country it's a lot easier to around the country it's a lot easier to make a deal with one of the big you know make a deal with one of the big you know make a deal with one of the big you know massive food food producers and buy your massive food food producers and buy your massive food food producers and buy your pork from them uh than to buy from a pork from them uh than to buy from a pork from them uh than to buy from a whole bunch of farmers around the whole bunch of farmers around the whole bunch of farmers around the country and so it's that is a big moat country and so it's that is a big moat country and so it's that is a big moat for Chipotle very difficult to replicate for Chipotle very difficult to replicate for Chipotle very difficult to replicate and by the way another company I think and by the way another company I think and by the way another company I think you have a stake is is McDonald's no we you have a stake is is McDonald's no we you have a stake is is McDonald's no we own a company called restaurant Brands own a company called restaurant Brands own a company called restaurant Brands restaurant Brands owns a number of Quick restaurant Brands owns a number of Quick restaurant Brands owns a number of Quick service companies one of which is Burger service companies one of which is Burger service companies one of which is Burger King Burger King okay well um it's been King Burger King okay well um it's been King Burger King okay well um it's been a meme for a while but I've Burger King

a meme for a while but I've Burger King a meme for a while but I've Burger King is great too Wendy's whatever but is great too Wendy's whatever but is great too Wendy's whatever but usually go McDonald's I'll just eat usually go McDonald's I'll just eat usually go McDonald's I'll just eat burger patties I don't know if you knew burger patties I don't know if you knew burger patties I don't know if you knew you could do this but a burger patty at you could do this but a burger patty at you could do this but a burger patty at Burger King can do this McDonald's it's Burger King can do this McDonald's it's Burger King can do this McDonald's it's actually way cheaper they'll just sell actually way cheaper they'll just sell actually way cheaper they'll just sell you the Pat the Patty and it's cheap you the Pat the Patty and it's cheap you the Pat the Patty and it's cheap it's like $150 or $2 for per Patty and it's like $150 or $2 for per Patty and it's like $150 or $2 for per Patty and it's about 250 calories and it's just it's about 250 calories and it's just it's about 250 calories and it's just meat and despite like the criticism of meat and despite like the criticism of meat and despite like the criticism of memes out there that's pretty healthy memes out there that's pretty healthy memes out there that's pretty healthy stuff it's healthy stuff and so when I stuff it's healthy stuff and so when I stuff it's healthy stuff and so when I do when I go my the healthiest I feel is do when I go my the healthiest I feel is do when I go my the healthiest I feel is when I do carnivore it doesn't sound when I do carnivore it doesn't sound when I do carnivore it doesn't sound healthy but if I eat only meat I feel healthy but if I eat only meat I feel healthy but if I eat only meat I feel really good I lose weight I have all really good I lose weight I have all really good I lose weight I have all this energy it's crazy and the when I'm this energy it's crazy and the when I'm this energy it's crazy and the when I'm traveling the easiest way to get me is traveling the easiest way to get me is traveling the easiest way to get me is that did you go to McDonald's you order that did you go to McDonald's you order that did you go to McDonald's you order six patties exactly so there's this sad six patties exactly so there's this sad six patties exactly so there's this sad meme of me just sitting alone in a car meme of me just sitting alone in a car meme of me just sitting alone in a car when I'm traveling just eating beef when I'm traveling just eating beef when I'm traveling just eating beef patties and McDonald but I love it and patties and McDonald but I love it and patties and McDonald but I love it and you got to do what what you love what you got to do what what you love what you got to do what what you love what makes you happy and that's what makes me makes you happy and that's what makes me makes you happy and that's what makes me happy we should maybe we'll have Burger happy we should maybe we'll have Burger happy we should maybe we'll have Burger King feature in what about flame world King feature in what about flame world King feature in what about flame world what what's with these fried burgers we what what's with these fried burgers we what what's with these fried burgers we got to get you to Burger King you know got to get you to Burger King you know got to get you to Burger King you know grilled burgers wait is this like fast grilled burgers wait is this like fast grilled burgers wait is this like fast food trash I didn't know I don't know food trash I didn't know I don't know food trash I didn't know I don't know the details of how they're made I'm not the details of how they're made I'm not the details of how they're made I'm not not I don't have Allegiance I think we not I don't have Allegiance I think we not I don't have Allegiance I think we got a chance to switch you to Burger got a chance to switch you to Burger got a chance to switch you to Burger King great we'll see I I'm I'm making so King great we'll see I I'm I'm making so King great we'll see I I'm I'm making so many deals today it's wonderful okay you many deals today it's wonderful okay you many deals today it's wonderful okay you were talking about most and this kind of were talking about most and this kind of were talking about most and this kind of remind me of um alphabet the parent remind me of um alphabet the parent remind me of um alphabet the parent company sure we're made where's it's a company sure we're made where's it's a company sure we're made where's it's a big position for us so it's interesting big position for us so it's interesting big position for us so it's interesting that you're uh think that maybe alphabet that you're uh think that maybe alphabet that you're uh think that maybe alphabet fits some of these

fits some of these fits some of these characteristics It's tricky to know with characteristics It's tricky to know with characteristics It's tricky to know with everything that's happening everything that's happening everything that's happening in in Ai and I'm interviewing s Pai soon in in Ai and I'm interviewing s Pai soon in in Ai and I'm interviewing s Pai soon it's interesting that you think that it's interesting that you think that it's interesting that you think that there's a mo and it's also interesting there's a mo and it's also interesting there's a mo and it's also interesting to analyze that because a consumer as to analyze that because a consumer as to analyze that because a consumer as just a fan of Technology why is Google just a fan of Technology why is Google just a fan of Technology why is Google still around like they've been it's not still around like they've been it's not still around like they've been it's not just a search engine it's doing it all just a search engine it's doing it all just a search engine it's doing it all the basics of the business of search the basics of the business of search the basics of the business of search really well but they're doing all these really well but they're doing all these really well but they're doing all these other stuff so what's your analysis of other stuff so what's your analysis of other stuff so what's your analysis of alphabet why are you still positive alphabet why are you still positive alphabet why are you still positive about it sure so it's a business we've about it sure so it's a business we've about it sure so it's a business we've admired as a firm for you know whatever admired as a firm for you know whatever admired as a firm for you know whatever 15 years um but rarely got to a price 15 years um but rarely got to a price 15 years um but rarely got to a price that we felt we could own it because that we felt we could own it because that we felt we could own it because again the expectations were so high and again the expectations were so high and again the expectations were so high and price really matters and really the sort price really matters and really the sort price really matters and really the sort of AI scare I would call it you know of AI scare I would call it you know of AI scare I would call it you know Microsoft comes out with chat GPT uh Microsoft comes out with chat GPT uh Microsoft comes out with chat GPT uh they do an amazing demonstration people they do an amazing demonstration people they do an amazing demonstration people like this most incredible product and like this most incredible product and like this most incredible product and Google which had been working on AI even Google which had been working on AI even Google which had been working on AI even earlier obviously the Microsoft earlier obviously the Microsoft earlier obviously the Microsoft Microsoft was behind an AI it was really Microsoft was behind an AI it was really Microsoft was behind an AI it was really their chat GPT deal that gave them a their chat GPT deal that gave them a their chat GPT deal that gave them a kind of a market presence um and then kind of a market presence um and then kind of a market presence um and then Google does this fairly disastrous uh Google does this fairly disastrous uh Google does this fairly disastrous uh demonstration of Bard and the world says demonstration of Bard and the world says demonstration of Bard and the world says oh my God Google's fallen behind an ai oh my God Google's fallen behind an ai oh my God Google's fallen behind an ai ai is the future stock gets crushed ai is the future stock gets crushed ai is the future stock gets crushed Google gets to a price around 15 times Google gets to a price around 15 times Google gets to a price around 15 times earnings uh which for a business of this earnings uh which for a business of this earnings uh which for a business of this quality is an extremely extremely low quality is an extremely extremely low quality is an extremely extremely low price and our view on Google one way to price and our view on Google one way to price and our view on Google one way to think about it when a business becomes a think about it when a business becomes a think about it when a business becomes a verb that's usually a pretty good sign verb that's usually a pretty good sign verb that's usually a pretty good sign about the mode around the business so

about the mode around the business so about the mode around the business so you know you open your computer and you you know you open your computer and you you know you open your computer and you open your search and very high open your search and very high open your search and very high percentage of the world starts with a percentage of the world starts with a percentage of the world starts with a Google you know page in a on Google you know page in a on Google you know page in a on line uh you type in your your search you line uh you type in your your search you line uh you type in your your search you know the Google advertising search know the Google advertising search know the Google advertising search YouTube franchise is one of the most YouTube franchise is one of the most YouTube franchise is one of the most dominant uh franchises in the world very dominant uh franchises in the world very dominant uh franchises in the world very difficult to disrupt uh extremely difficult to disrupt uh extremely difficult to disrupt uh extremely profitable uh the world is moving from profitable uh the world is moving from profitable uh the world is moving from offline advertising to online offline advertising to online offline advertising to online advertising and that Trend I think advertising and that Trend I think advertising and that Trend I think continues why because you can actually continues why because you can actually continues why because you can actually see what your ads work you know they see what your ads work you know they see what your ads work you know they used to say about advertising you know used to say about advertising you know used to say about advertising you know uh you spend a fortune and you just uh you spend a fortune and you just uh you spend a fortune and you just don't know which 50% of it works but you don't know which 50% of it works but you don't know which 50% of it works but you just sort of spend the money because you just sort of spend the money because you just sort of spend the money because you know ultimately that's going to bring in know ultimately that's going to bring in know ultimately that's going to bring in the customer and now with online the customer and now with online the customer and now with online advertising you can see with advertising you can see with advertising you can see with granularity which dollars I'm spending granularity which dollars I'm spending granularity which dollars I'm spending you know when people click on the search you know when people click on the search you know when people click on the search term and end up buying something and I term and end up buying something and I term and end up buying something and I pay you know the it's a very high return pay you know the it's a very high return pay you know the it's a very high return on investment for The Advertiser and on investment for The Advertiser and on investment for The Advertiser and they really dominate that business now they really dominate that business now they really dominate that business now ai of course is a risk if all of a ai of course is a risk if all of a ai of course is a risk if all of a sudden people start searching or asking sudden people start searching or asking sudden people start searching or asking questions of chat GPT and don't start questions of chat GPT and don't start questions of chat GPT and don't start with the Google search bar that's a risk with the Google search bar that's a risk with the Google search bar that's a risk to the company and so our view based on to the company and so our view based on to the company and so our view based on work we had done and talked to Industry work we had done and talked to Industry work we had done and talked to Industry experts is that Google if anything had a experts is that Google if anything had a experts is that Google if anything had a a uh by virtue of the the investment a uh by virtue of the the investment a uh by virtue of the the investment they've made the time the energy they they've made the time the energy they they've made the time the energy they people put into it we felt their AI people put into it we felt their AI people put into it we felt their AI capabilities were if anything capabilities were if anything capabilities were if anything potentially greater than uh Microsoft potentially greater than uh Microsoft potentially greater than uh Microsoft Chat GPT and that the market had Chat GPT and that the market had Chat GPT and that the market had overreacted and I because Google you

overreacted and I because Google you overreacted and I because Google you know is a big company uh Global business know is a big company uh Global business know is a big company uh Global business Regulators uh scrutinized it incredibly Regulators uh scrutinized it incredibly Regulators uh scrutinized it incredibly carefully they couldn't take some of the carefully they couldn't take some of the carefully they couldn't take some of the same Liberties a startup like open AI same Liberties a startup like open AI same Liberties a startup like open AI did in releasing a product and I think did in releasing a product and I think did in releasing a product and I think Google took a more cautious approach in Google took a more cautious approach in Google took a more cautious approach in releasing an early version of Bard in releasing an early version of Bard in releasing an early version of Bard in terms of its capabilities and that let terms of its capabilities and that let terms of its capabilities and that let the mark the world to believe that they the mark the world to believe that they the mark the world to believe that they were behind and we ultimately concluded were behind and we ultimately concluded were behind and we ultimately concluded if any they're tied or ahead and you're if any they're tied or ahead and you're if any they're tied or ahead and you're paying nothing uh for the that potential paying nothing uh for the that potential paying nothing uh for the that potential business and they're going to and they business and they're going to and they business and they're going to and they also have huge advantages by you think also have huge advantages by you think also have huge advantages by you think of all the data Google has like the of all the data Google has like the of all the data Google has like the search data um all the various app you search data um all the various app you search data um all the various app you know applications you know email and know applications you know email and know applications you know email and otherwise and the kind of the Google otherwise and the kind of the Google otherwise and the kind of the Google Suite of of products it's an incredible Suite of of products it's an incredible Suite of of products it's an incredible data set so they have more training data data set so they have more training data data set so they have more training data than pretty much any company in the than pretty much any company in the than pretty much any company in the world they have incredible Engineers world they have incredible Engineers world they have incredible Engineers they have enormous Financial Resources they have enormous Financial Resources they have enormous Financial Resources uh so that was kind of the BET and um uh so that was kind of the BET and um uh so that was kind of the BET and um and we still think it's probably the and we still think it's probably the and we still think it's probably the cheapest of the big seven companies in cheapest of the big seven companies in cheapest of the big seven companies in terms of price you're paying for the terms of price you're paying for the terms of price you're paying for the business relative to its current business relative to its current business relative to its current earnings it also is a business uh that earnings it also is a business uh that earnings it also is a business uh that has a lot of potential for efficiency has a lot of potential for efficiency has a lot of potential for efficiency you know sometimes when you have this you know sometimes when you have this you know sometimes when you have this enormously profitable dominant company enormously profitable dominant company enormously profitable dominant company you know all of the technology companies you know all of the technology companies you know all of the technology companies in the post March 20 world uh grew in the post March 20 world uh grew in the post March 20 world uh grew enormously in terms of their teams and enormously in terms of their teams and enormously in terms of their teams and they probably over hired and so you've they probably over hired and so you've they probably over hired and so you've seen some you know the Facebooks of the seen some you know the Facebooks of the seen some you know the Facebooks of the world and now even Google starting to world and now even Google starting to world and now even Google starting to get a little more efficient in terms of get a little more efficient in terms of get a little more efficient in terms of their operation so we P up low multiple their operation so we P up low multiple their operation so we P up low multiple for their the business um one way to for their the business um one way to for their the business um one way to think about the value of the business is think about the value of the business is think about the value of the business is the price you pay for the earnings or

the price you pay for the earnings or the price you pay for the earnings or alternatively what's the yield if you alternatively what's the yield if you alternatively what's the yield if you flip over the price over the earnings it flip over the price over the earnings it flip over the price over the earnings it gives you kind of the yield of the gives you kind of the yield of the gives you kind of the yield of the business so a 15 multiple is about a business so a 15 multiple is about a business so a 15 multiple is about a almost a 7 a half% yield and that almost a 7 a half% yield and that almost a 7 a half% yield and that earnings yield is growing over time as earnings yield is growing over time as earnings yield is growing over time as the business grows that's a you know the business grows that's a you know the business grows that's a you know compared to uh what you can earn lending compared to uh what you can earn lending compared to uh what you can earn lending your money to the government you know 4% your money to the government you know 4% your money to the government you know 4% that's a very attractive going in yield that's a very attractive going in yield that's a very attractive going in yield and then there's all kinds of what we and then there's all kinds of what we and then there's all kinds of what we call optionality in all the various call optionality in all the various call optionality in all the various businesses and Investments they've made businesses and Investments they've made businesses and Investments they've made that are losing money they've got a that are losing money they've got a that are losing money they've got a cloud business that's growing very cloud business that's growing very cloud business that's growing very rapidly but they're investing basically rapidly but they're investing basically rapidly but they're investing basically 100% of the profits from that business 100% of the profits from that business 100% of the profits from that business in growth so you're in that earnings in growth so you're in that earnings in growth so you're in that earnings number you're not seeing any earnings number you're not seeing any earnings number you're not seeing any earnings from the cloud business and you know from the cloud business and you know from the cloud business and you know they're one of the top Cloud Player so they're one of the top Cloud Player so they're one of the top Cloud Player so very very very interesting generally well-managed uh interesting generally well-managed uh interesting generally well-managed uh company with Incredible assets and company with Incredible assets and company with Incredible assets and resources and dominance you know and has resources and dominance you know and has resources and dominance you know and has no debt it's got ton of cash and so no debt it's got ton of cash and so no debt it's got ton of cash and so pretty good story is there something pretty good story is there something pretty good story is there something fundamentally different about AI that fundamentally different about AI that fundamentally different about AI that makes all of this more complicated which makes all of this more complicated which makes all of this more complicated which is the sort of the exponential is the sort of the exponential is the sort of the exponential possibilities of the kinds of products possibilities of the kinds of products possibilities of the kinds of products and impact that AI could create when and impact that AI could create when and impact that AI could create when you're looking at meta Microsoft you're looking at meta Microsoft you're looking at meta Microsoft alphabet Google all these companies alphabet Google all these companies alphabet Google all these companies xai or maybe startups like is is there xai or maybe startups like is is there xai or maybe startups like is is there some more risk introduced by the some more risk introduced by the some more risk introduced by the possibilities of AI absolutely that's a possibilities of AI absolutely that's a possibilities of AI absolutely that's a great question um you know business great question um you know business great question um you know business investing is about finding companies investing is about finding companies investing is about finding companies that can't be disrupted AI is the

that can't be disrupted AI is the that can't be disrupted AI is the ultimate disruptable asset uh or ultimate disruptable asset uh or ultimate disruptable asset uh or technology and it that's what makes technology and it that's what makes technology and it that's what makes investing treacherous is that you own a investing treacherous is that you own a investing treacherous is that you own a business that's enormously profitable business that's enormously profitable business that's enormously profitable management gets if you will fat and management gets if you will fat and management gets if you will fat and happy and then a new technology emerges happy and then a new technology emerges happy and then a new technology emerges that just takes away all their that just takes away all their that just takes away all their profitability and AI is this incredibly profitability and AI is this incredibly profitability and AI is this incredibly powerful tool which is why every powerful tool which is why every powerful tool which is why every business is saying how can I use AI in business is saying how can I use AI in business is saying how can I use AI in in my business to make us more in my business to make us more in my business to make us more profitable more successful grow faster profitable more successful grow faster profitable more successful grow faster and also disrupt or protect oursel from and also disrupt or protect oursel from and also disrupt or protect oursel from the the the you know the incomings you know it's you know the incomings you know it's you know the incomings you know it's it's a bit like you know Buffett talks it's a bit like you know Buffett talks it's a bit like you know Buffett talks about um a great business like a castle about um a great business like a castle about um a great business like a castle surrounded by this really wide mode but surrounded by this really wide mode but surrounded by this really wide mode but you have all these barbarians trying to you have all these barbarians trying to you have all these barbarians trying to get in and uh steal the uh princess and get in and uh steal the uh princess and get in and uh steal the uh princess and uh it happens you know Kodak for example uh it happens you know Kodak for example uh it happens you know Kodak for example was an amazing incredibly dominant was an amazing incredibly dominant was an amazing incredibly dominant company until it disappeared Polaroid company until it disappeared Polaroid company until it disappeared Polaroid you know this incredible you know this incredible you know this incredible technology and that's why we have tended technology and that's why we have tended technology and that's why we have tended to stay away from companies that are to stay away from companies that are to stay away from companies that are technology companies because technology technology companies because technology technology companies because technology companies generally the world is such a companies generally the world is such a companies generally the world is such a dynamic place that someone's always dynamic place that someone's always dynamic place that someone's always working on a better version and you know working on a better version and you know working on a better version and you know codec was caught up in the analog film codec was caught up in the analog film codec was caught up in the analog film world and then the world changed well world and then the world changed well world and then the world changed well Google was pretty fat and happy until Google was pretty fat and happy until Google was pretty fat and happy until chadti came out how would you rate their chadti came out how would you rate their chadti came out how would you rate their ability to wake up lose weight and be uh ability to wake up lose weight and be uh ability to wake up lose weight and be uh less happy and aggressively ReDiscover less happy and aggressively ReDiscover less happy and aggressively ReDiscover their search for happiness I think their search for happiness I think their search for happiness I think you've seen a lot of that in the last you've seen a lot of that in the last you've seen a lot of that in the last year here uh and uh I would say some

year here uh and uh I would say some year here uh and uh I would say some combination of embarrassment and pride combination of embarrassment and pride combination of embarrassment and pride are huge motivators uh for everyone from are huge motivators uh for everyone from are huge motivators uh for everyone from Sergey Brin you know to the management Sergey Brin you know to the management Sergey Brin you know to the management of the company um and Demis Saab is of the company um and Demis Saab is of the company um and Demis Saab is throw in into the picture and all of throw in into the picture and all of throw in into the picture and all of Deep Mind teams and the unification of Deep Mind teams and the unification of Deep Mind teams and the unification of teams and like all the shakeups it was teams and like all the shakeups it was teams and like all the shakeups it was interesting to watch the chaos I love it interesting to watch the chaos I love it interesting to watch the chaos I love it I love it when uh everybody freaks out I love it when uh everybody freaks out I love it when uh everybody freaks out like you said partly embarrassment and like you said partly embarrassment and like you said partly embarrassment and partly that competitive drive that partly that competitive drive that partly that competitive drive that drives into engers is great I can't wait drives into engers is great I can't wait drives into engers is great I can't wait to see what um there've been just a lot to see what um there've been just a lot to see what um there've been just a lot of improvement in the product let's see of improvement in the product let's see of improvement in the product let's see let's see where it goes you mentioned let's see where it goes you mentioned let's see where it goes you mentioned management how do you analyze the management how do you analyze the management how do you analyze the governance structure and the individual governance structure and the individual governance structure and the individual humans that are the managers of a humans that are the managers of a humans that are the managers of a company so as I like to say incentives company so as I like to say incentives company so as I like to say incentives drive all human behavior uh and that drive all human behavior uh and that drive all human behavior uh and that certainly applies in the business world certainly applies in the business world certainly applies in the business world so understanding the people and what so understanding the people and what so understanding the people and what drives them and what the actual drives them and what the actual drives them and what the actual financial and other incentives of a financial and other incentives of a financial and other incentives of a business are very important uh part of business are very important uh part of business are very important uh part of the analysis for investing in a the analysis for investing in a the analysis for investing in a company and you can learn a lot you know company and you can learn a lot you know company and you can learn a lot you know I mentioned before one great way to I mentioned before one great way to I mentioned before one great way to learn about a business is go back a learn about a business is go back a learn about a business is go back a decade and read everything that decade and read everything that decade and read everything that management has written about the management has written about the management has written about the business and see what they've done over business and see what they've done over business and see what they've done over time see what they've said you know time see what they've said you know time see what they've said you know conference calls are actually you know conference calls are actually you know conference calls are actually you know relatively recent uh when I started in relatively recent uh when I started in relatively recent uh when I started in the business there weren't conference the business there weren't conference the business there weren't conference call transcripts now you have you know a call transcripts now you have you know a call transcripts now you have you know a a written record of everything a written record of everything a written record of everything management has said in response to management has said in response to management has said in response to questions from analysts at conferences questions from analysts at conferences questions from analysts at conferences and otherwise and otherwise and otherwise and so just you learn a lot about people and so just you learn a lot about people and so just you learn a lot about people by listening to what they say how they

by listening to what they say how they by listening to what they say how they answer questions and ultimately their answer questions and ultimately their answer questions and ultimately their track record for doing what they say track record for doing what they say track record for doing what they say they're going to do are do they under they're going to do are do they under they're going to do are do they under promise and overd deliver do they promise and overd deliver do they promise and overd deliver do they overpromise and underd deliver um do overpromise and underd deliver um do overpromise and underd deliver um do they say what they're going to do do they say what they're going to do do they say what they're going to do do they admit mistakes um do they build they admit mistakes um do they build they admit mistakes um do they build great teams do people want to come work great teams do people want to come work great teams do people want to come work for them are they able to retain their for them are they able to retain their for them are they able to retain their talent um you know and then part of it talent um you know and then part of it talent um you know and then part of it is do they how much are they running the is do they how much are they running the is do they how much are they running the business for the benefit of the business business for the benefit of the business business for the benefit of the business how they running the business for the how they running the business for the how they running the business for the benefit of themselves um and uh you know benefit of themselves um and uh you know benefit of themselves um and uh you know that's kind of the analysis you do are that's kind of the analysis you do are that's kind of the analysis you do are we uh talking about CEO Co what what we uh talking about CEO Co what what we uh talking about CEO Co what what what does management mean how deep does what does management mean how deep does what does management mean how deep does it go sure so this very Senior it go sure so this very Senior it go sure so this very Senior Management matters enormously you we use Management matters enormously you we use Management matters enormously you we use the Chipotle example uh Steve 's great the Chipotle example uh Steve 's great the Chipotle example uh Steve 's great entrepreneur business got to a scale he entrepreneur business got to a scale he entrepreneur business got to a scale he really couldn't uh run it we recruited a really couldn't uh run it we recruited a really couldn't uh run it we recruited a guy named Brian helped the company guy named Brian helped the company guy named Brian helped the company recruit a guy named Brian nickel uh and recruit a guy named Brian nickel uh and recruit a guy named Brian nickel uh and he was considered the best person in the he was considered the best person in the he was considered the best person in the Quick Service indust Quick Service indust Quick Service indust he came in and completely rebuilt the he came in and completely rebuilt the he came in and completely rebuilt the company actually we moved the company company actually we moved the company company actually we moved the company reply was moved to reply was moved to reply was moved to California and sometimes one way to redo California and sometimes one way to redo California and sometimes one way to redo the culture of a company is just to move the culture of a company is just to move the culture of a company is just to move it geographically and then you can kind it geographically and then you can kind it geographically and then you can kind of reboot the business but a great of reboot the business but a great of reboot the business but a great leader has great followership you know leader has great followership you know leader has great followership you know over the course of their career they'll over the course of their career they'll over the course of their career they'll have a team they've built that will come have a team they've built that will come have a team they've built that will come follow them into the next opportunity uh follow them into the next opportunity uh follow them into the next opportunity uh but the key is you know really the top but the key is you know really the top but the key is you know really the top person matters enormously uh because and person matters enormously uh because and person matters enormously uh because and then it's who they then it's who they then it's who they recruit uh you know you recruit an A+ recruit uh you know you recruit an A+ recruit uh you know you recruit an A+ leader and they're going to recruit leader and they're going to recruit leader and they're going to recruit other a type people recruit a b leader

other a type people recruit a b leader other a type people recruit a b leader you're not going to recruit any great you're not going to recruit any great you're not going to recruit any great talent beneath talent beneath talent beneath them uh you mentioned Warren Buffett you them uh you mentioned Warren Buffett you them uh you mentioned Warren Buffett you said you admire him as an investor what said you admire him as an investor what said you admire him as an investor what do you find most interesting and do you find most interesting and do you find most interesting and Powerful about his Powerful about his Powerful about his approach what aspects of his approach to approach what aspects of his approach to approach what aspects of his approach to investing do you also practice sure so investing do you also practice sure so investing do you also practice sure so most of what I've learned in the most of what I've learned in the most of what I've learned in the investment business I've learned from investment business I've learned from investment business I've learned from waren Buffett he's been my great waren Buffett he's been my great waren Buffett he's been my great Professor uh of this business I my first Professor uh of this business I my first Professor uh of this business I my first book read in the business was the Ben book read in the business was the Ben book read in the business was the Ben Graham intelligent investor but fairly Graham intelligent investor but fairly Graham intelligent investor but fairly quickly you get to learn about Warren quickly you get to learn about Warren quickly you get to learn about Warren Buffett and I started by reading the Buffett and I started by reading the Buffett and I started by reading the Berkshire hathway and reports uh and Berkshire hathway and reports uh and Berkshire hathway and reports uh and then I eventually got the Buffett then I eventually got the Buffett then I eventually got the Buffett partnership letters that you can see uh partnership letters that you can see uh partnership letters that you can see uh which are an amazing read to go back to which are an amazing read to go back to which are an amazing read to go back to the 19 mid1 1950s and read what he wrote the 19 mid1 1950s and read what he wrote the 19 mid1 1950s and read what he wrote to his limited partners when he first to his limited partners when he first to his limited partners when he first started out and just follow that started out and just follow that started out and just follow that trajectory over a long period of time so trajectory over a long period of time so trajectory over a long period of time so what's remarkable about him is one what's remarkable about him is one what's remarkable about him is one duration right he's still added at duration right he's still added at duration right he's still added at 93 uh you know to uh you know takes a 93 uh you know to uh you know takes a 93 uh you know to uh you know takes a very long-term view um but a big thing very long-term view um but a big thing very long-term view um but a big thing that you learn from him investing that you learn from him investing that you learn from him investing requires this incredible dispassionate requires this incredible dispassionate requires this incredible dispassionate uh on emotional quality you have to be uh on emotional quality you have to be uh on emotional quality you have to be extremely economically rational uh which extremely economically rational uh which extremely economically rational uh which is not uh a basic it's not something you is not uh a basic it's not something you is not uh a basic it's not something you learn in the jungle you know I don't learn in the jungle you know I don't learn in the jungle you know I don't think it's something that you know if think it's something that you know if think it's something that you know if you think about the the um you know you think about the the um you know you think about the the um you know surviving the jungle uh you know the surviving the jungle uh you know the surviving the jungle uh you know the lion shows up uh you know you everyone lion shows up uh you know you everyone lion shows up uh you know you everyone starts running you run with them uh that starts running you run with them uh that starts running you run with them uh that does not work well uh in markets in fact

does not work well uh in markets in fact does not work well uh in markets in fact you generally have to do the opposite you generally have to do the opposite you generally have to do the opposite right when the Lemmings are running over right when the Lemmings are running over right when the Lemmings are running over the cliff that's the time where you're the cliff that's the time where you're the cliff that's the time where you're facing the other direction and you're facing the other direction and you're facing the other direction and you're running the other direction I.E you're running the other direction I.E you're running the other direction I.E you're stepping in you're buying stocks at stepping in you're buying stocks at stepping in you're buying stocks at really low prices um you know Buffett's really low prices um you know Buffett's really low prices um you know Buffett's been great at that and great at teaching been great at that and great at teaching been great at that and great at teaching about what he calls temperament which is about what he calls temperament which is about what he calls temperament which is this sort of emotional kind of or this sort of emotional kind of or this sort of emotional kind of or unemotional uh quality that you need uh unemotional uh quality that you need uh unemotional uh quality that you need uh to be able to dispassionately look at to be able to dispassionately look at to be able to dispassionately look at the world and say okay is this a real the world and say okay is this a real the world and say okay is this a real RIS risk or people RIS risk or people RIS risk or people overreacting um people tend to get overreacting um people tend to get overreacting um people tend to get excited about Investments when stocks excited about Investments when stocks excited about Investments when stocks are going up and they get depressed when are going up and they get depressed when are going up and they get depressed when they're going down and that I think they're going down and that I think they're going down and that I think that's just inherently human you have to that's just inherently human you have to that's just inherently human you have to reverse that you have to get excited reverse that you have to get excited reverse that you have to get excited when things get cheaper and you got to when things get cheaper and you got to when things get cheaper and you got to get concern when things get more get concern when things get more get concern when things get more expensive you've been a part of some big expensive you've been a part of some big expensive you've been a part of some big battles some big losses some big wins so battles some big losses some big wins so battles some big losses some big wins so it's been a roller coaster so in terms it's been a roller coaster so in terms it's been a roller coaster so in terms of temperament psychologically how do of temperament psychologically how do of temperament psychologically how do you not let that break you how do you you not let that break you how do you you not let that break you how do you maintain a maintain a maintain a calm uh demeanor and avoid running with calm uh demeanor and avoid running with calm uh demeanor and avoid running with the the the Lemmings I think it's something you kind Lemmings I think it's something you kind Lemmings I think it's something you kind of learn over time uh a key success of learn over time uh a key success of learn over time uh a key success factor is you want to have enough money factor is you want to have enough money factor is you want to have enough money in the bank that you're going to survive in the bank that you're going to survive in the bank that you're going to survive uh you know regardless of what's going uh you know regardless of what's going uh you know regardless of what's going on with volatility and markets you know on with volatility and markets you know on with volatility and markets you know people who uh one you shouldn't borrow people who uh one you shouldn't borrow people who uh one you shouldn't borrow money so if you borrow money you own money so if you borrow money you own money so if you borrow money you own stocks on margin markets are going down stocks on margin markets are going down stocks on margin markets are going down and you have your livelihood at risk and you have your livelihood at risk and you have your livelihood at risk it's very difficult to be rational so

it's very difficult to be rational so it's very difficult to be rational so key is getting yourself to a place where key is getting yourself to a place where key is getting yourself to a place where you're financially secure you're not you're financially secure you're not you're financially secure you're not going to lose your house right that's a going to lose your house right that's a going to lose your house right that's a kind of a key thing and then also doing kind of a key thing and then also doing kind of a key thing and then also doing your homework you know stock prices your homework you know stock prices your homework you know stock prices stocks can trade at any price in the stocks can trade at any price in the stocks can trade at any price in the short term and if you know what a short term and if you know what a short term and if you know what a business is worth and you understand the business is worth and you understand the business is worth and you understand the management you know it extremely well management you know it extremely well management you know it extremely well it's not nearly as uh it doesn't bother it's not nearly as uh it doesn't bother it's not nearly as uh it doesn't bother you when a stock price goes down or it you when a stock price goes down or it you when a stock price goes down or it has much less impact on you because you has much less impact on you because you has much less impact on you because you know you know again as uh Mr Graham said know you know again as uh Mr Graham said know you know again as uh Mr Graham said you know the short- term the markets a you know the short- term the markets a you know the short- term the markets a voting machine you have a bunch of voting machine you have a bunch of voting machine you have a bunch of lemmings voting One Direction that's lemmings voting One Direction that's lemmings voting One Direction that's concerning but if it's a great business concerning but if it's a great business concerning but if it's a great business doesn't have a lot of debt and people doesn't have a lot of debt and people doesn't have a lot of debt and people going just listen to more music next going just listen to more music next going just listen to more music next year than this year you know you're year than this year you know you're year than this year you know you're going to do well uh so it's a bit some going to do well uh so it's a bit some going to do well uh so it's a bit some combination of being personally secure combination of being personally secure combination of being personally secure and also just knowing what you own uh and also just knowing what you own uh and also just knowing what you own uh and over time you build uh uh calluses I and over time you build uh uh calluses I and over time you build uh uh calluses I would say so psychologically just as a would say so psychologically just as a would say so psychologically just as a human being speaking of lines and gazel human being speaking of lines and gazel human being speaking of lines and gazel and all this kind of stuff yeah is there and all this kind of stuff yeah is there and all this kind of stuff yeah is there some is it as simple as just being some is it as simple as just being some is it as simple as just being financially secure uh is there some just financially secure uh is there some just financially secure uh is there some just human qualities that you have to be born human qualities that you have to be born human qualities that you have to be born with Slash develop I think so I think uh with Slash develop I think so I think uh with Slash develop I think so I think uh now I'm a pretty emotional person I now I'm a pretty emotional person I now I'm a pretty emotional person I would say or I feel pretty strong would say or I feel pretty strong would say or I feel pretty strong emotions but not an investing I'm remark emotions but not an investing I'm remark emotions but not an investing I'm remark ably immune to kind of volatility and ably immune to kind of volatility and ably immune to kind of volatility and that's a big advantage and it took some

that's a big advantage and it took some that's a big advantage and it took some time for me to develop that so you time for me to develop that so you time for me to develop that so you weren't born with that you think no so weren't born with that you think no so weren't born with that you think no so being emotional you want to respond to being emotional you want to respond to being emotional you want to respond to volatility yeah and you just it's a bit volatility yeah and you just it's a bit volatility yeah and you just it's a bit again I you can learn a lot from other again I you can learn a lot from other again I you can learn a lot from other people's experience it's one of the the people's experience it's one of the the people's experience it's one of the the few businesses where you can learn an few businesses where you can learn an few businesses where you can learn an enormous amount by reading about other enormous amount by reading about other enormous amount by reading about other periods in history uh you know watch you periods in history uh you know watch you periods in history uh you know watch you know following Buffett's career the know following Buffett's career the know following Buffett's career the mistakes he made if you're investing a mistakes he made if you're investing a mistakes he made if you're investing a lot of capital every one of your lot of capital every one of your lot of capital every one of your mistakes is going to be big right so mistakes is going to be big right so mistakes is going to be big right so we've made big mistakes uh the good news we've made big mistakes uh the good news we've made big mistakes uh the good news is that the vast majority of things is that the vast majority of things is that the vast majority of things we've done have worked out really well we've done have worked out really well we've done have worked out really well and so that also gives you you know and so that also gives you you know and so that also gives you you know confidence over time but because we make confidence over time but because we make confidence over time but because we make very few Investments you know we own very few Investments you know we own very few Investments you know we own eight things today or seven companies of eight things today or seven companies of eight things today or seven companies of that matter um if we get one wrong it's that matter um if we get one wrong it's that matter um if we get one wrong it's going to be big news and so the other going to be big news and so the other going to be big news and so the other nature of our business you have to be nature of our business you have to be nature of our business you have to be comfortable with is a lot of public comfortable with is a lot of public comfortable with is a lot of public scrutiny a lot of public criticism and scrutiny a lot of public criticism and scrutiny a lot of public criticism and that requires that requires that requires some uh experience call that I think some uh experience call that I think some uh experience call that I think we'll talk about some of that yeah uh we'll talk about some of that yeah uh we'll talk about some of that yeah uh financially secure is something you I financially secure is something you I financially secure is something you I believe also recommend for even just believe also recommend for even just believe also recommend for even just everyday investors is there some general everyday investors is there some general everyday investors is there some general advice from the things you've been advice from the things you've been advice from the things you've been talking about that applies to Everyday talking about that applies to Everyday talking about that applies to Everyday investors sure so never invest money you investors sure so never invest money you investors sure so never invest money you can't afford to lose where it would if can't afford to lose where it would if can't afford to lose where it would if you l lost this this money and you know you l lost this this money and you know you l lost this this money and you know you lose your house Etc so you lose your house Etc so you lose your house Etc so having being in a place where uh you're

having being in a place where uh you're having being in a place where uh you're investing money that you don't care investing money that you don't care investing money that you don't care about the price in the short term it's about the price in the short term it's about the price in the short term it's money for your retirement and you take a money for your retirement and you take a money for your retirement and you take a really long-term view I think that's key really long-term view I think that's key really long-term view I think that's key uh never investing where you borrow uh never investing where you borrow uh never investing where you borrow money against your securities you know money against your securities you know money against your securities you know the the markets offer you the the the markets offer you the the the markets offer you the opportunity to leverage your investment opportunity to leverage your investment opportunity to leverage your investment and in most worlds you'll be okay except and in most worlds you'll be okay except and in most worlds you'll be okay except if you know there's a financial crisis if you know there's a financial crisis if you know there's a financial crisis or you know a nuclear device gets or you know a nuclear device gets or you know a nuclear device gets detonated God forbid somewhere in the detonated God forbid somewhere in the detonated God forbid somewhere in the world or there's a unexpected war or you world or there's a unexpected war or you world or there's a unexpected war or you know someone kills a leader unexpectedly know someone kills a leader unexpectedly know someone kills a leader unexpectedly you know things happen that can change you know things happen that can change you know things happen that can change the course of history and markets react the course of history and markets react the course of history and markets react very negatively to those kinds of events very negatively to those kinds of events very negatively to those kinds of events and you can own the greatest business in and you can own the greatest business in and you can own the greatest business in the world trading for $100 a share and the world trading for $100 a share and the world trading for $100 a share and next moment it could be 50 so as long as next moment it could be 50 so as long as next moment it could be 50 so as long as you don't borrow against Securities you you don't borrow against Securities you you don't borrow against Securities you own really high quality businesses and own really high quality businesses and own really high quality businesses and it's it's not money that you need in the it's it's not money that you need in the it's it's not money that you need in the short term uh then you can you can short term uh then you can you can short term uh then you can you can actually be thoughtful about it and that actually be thoughtful about it and that actually be thoughtful about it and that is a huge Advantage the vast majority of is a huge Advantage the vast majority of is a huge Advantage the vast majority of investors it seems tend to be the ones investors it seems tend to be the ones investors it seems tend to be the ones that panic in the downturns get that panic in the downturns get that panic in the downturns get overrated and when markets are doing overrated and when markets are doing overrated and when markets are doing well so be able to think longterm and be well so be able to think longterm and be well so be able to think longterm and be sufficiently financially secure such sufficiently financially secure such sufficiently financially secure such that you can afford to think long term that you can afford to think long term that you can afford to think long term yeah that Buffett is the ultimate yeah that Buffett is the ultimate yeah that Buffett is the ultimate long-term thinker and just the decisions long-term thinker and just the decisions long-term thinker and just the decisions he makes uh the consistency of the he makes uh the consistency of the he makes uh the consistency of the decisions he's made over time and decisions he's made over time and decisions he's made over time and fitting into that sort of long-term

fitting into that sort of long-term fitting into that sort of long-term framework is a very uh very educational framework is a very uh very educational framework is a very uh very educational let's put it that way for the for let's put it that way for the for let's put it that way for the for learning about this business so you learning about this business so you learning about this business so you mentioned eight companies but what do mentioned eight companies but what do mentioned eight companies but what do you think about mutual funds that for you think about mutual funds that for you think about mutual funds that for everyday investors that diversify across everyday investors that diversify across everyday investors that diversify across a larger number of companies I think a larger number of companies I think a larger number of companies I think there are very few mutual funds uh there there are very few mutual funds uh there there are very few mutual funds uh there thousands and thousands of mutual funds thousands and thousands of mutual funds thousands and thousands of mutual funds they're very few that earn their keep in they're very few that earn their keep in they're very few that earn their keep in terms of the fees they charge uh they terms of the fees they charge uh they terms of the fees they charge uh they tend to be too tend to be too tend to be too Diversified um and Diversified um and Diversified um and uh you know too shortterm and you're uh you know too shortterm and you're uh you know too shortterm and you're often much better off just buying an often much better off just buying an often much better off just buying an index fund and many of them index fund and many of them index fund and many of them perform they look if you look carefully perform they look if you look carefully perform they look if you look carefully at their portfolios they're not so at their portfolios they're not so at their portfolios they're not so different from the underlying index different from the underlying index different from the underlying index itself and you tend to pay a much higher itself and you tend to pay a much higher itself and you tend to pay a much higher fee uh now all of that being said fee uh now all of that being said fee uh now all of that being said there's very talented mutual fund there's very talented mutual fund there's very talented mutual fund managers a guy named will danoff at managers a guy named will danoff at managers a guy named will danoff at Fidelity had a great record over a long Fidelity had a great record over a long Fidelity had a great record over a long period of time you the famous Peter period of time you the famous Peter period of time you the famous Peter Lynch uh Ron Baron another great Lynch uh Ron Baron another great Lynch uh Ron Baron another great long-term growth stock investor so long-term growth stock investor so long-term growth stock investor so there's some great uh mutual funds but I there's some great uh mutual funds but I there's some great uh mutual funds but I put them in the handful versus the put them in the handful versus the put them in the handful versus the thousands and if you're in you know the thousands and if you're in you know the thousands and if you're in you know the thousands I I'd rather someone bought thousands I I'd rather someone bought thousands I I'd rather someone bought just an index fund basically yeah index just an index fund basically yeah index just an index fund basically yeah index funds but what uh what would be the leap funds but what uh what would be the leap funds but what uh what would be the leap for an everyday investor to go to for an everyday investor to go to for an everyday investor to go to investing in a small number of companies investing in a small number of companies investing in a small number of companies like 2 three four five companies I even

like 2 three four five companies I even like 2 three four five companies I even recommend for individual investors to recommend for individual investors to recommend for individual investors to invest in you know a dozen companies you invest in you know a dozen companies you invest in you know a dozen companies you don't get that much more benefit of don't get that much more benefit of don't get that much more benefit of diversification going from a dozen to 25 diversification going from a dozen to 25 diversification going from a dozen to 25 or even 50 you know most of the benefits or even 50 you know most of the benefits or even 50 you know most of the benefits diversification come in the first you diversification come in the first you diversification come in the first you know call it 10 or 12 uh and if you're know call it 10 or 12 uh and if you're know call it 10 or 12 uh and if you're investing in businesses that don't have investing in businesses that don't have investing in businesses that don't have a lot of debt they're businesses that a lot of debt they're businesses that a lot of debt they're businesses that you can understand yourself you you can understand yourself you you can understand yourself you understand you know actually individual understand you know actually individual understand you know actually individual investors did a much better job investors did a much better job investors did a much better job analyzing Tesla than the so-called analyzing Tesla than the so-called analyzing Tesla than the so-called professional investors or analysts the professional investors or analysts the professional investors or analysts the vast majority of them so if it's a vast majority of them so if it's a vast majority of them so if it's a business you understand you if you business you understand you if you business you understand you if you bought a Tesla you understand the bought a Tesla you understand the bought a Tesla you understand the product and its appeal to Consumers you product and its appeal to Consumers you product and its appeal to Consumers you know it's a good place to start when know it's a good place to start when know it's a good place to start when you're analyzing a company um so I would you're analyzing a company um so I would you're analyzing a company um so I would invest in things you can understand invest in things you can understand invest in things you can understand that's kind of a key uh you know you that's kind of a key uh you know you that's kind of a key uh you know you like Chipotle you you understand why like Chipotle you you understand why like Chipotle you you understand why they're successful you can you know go they're successful you can you know go they're successful you can you know go there every week week and you can there every week week and you can there every week week and you can monitor you know is anything changing monitor you know is anything changing monitor you know is anything changing you how these new uh kind of how's you how these new uh kind of how's you how these new uh kind of how's chicken alpastor is that is that a good chicken alpastor is that is that a good chicken alpastor is that is that a good upgrade from the basic chicken you know upgrade from the basic chicken you know upgrade from the basic chicken you know the drink offerings improving uh the the drink offerings improving uh the the drink offerings improving uh the stores clean I think you should invest stores clean I think you should invest stores clean I think you should invest in companies you really understand in companies you really understand in companies you really understand simple businesses where you can predict simple businesses where you can predict simple businesses where you can predict with a high degree of confidence what with a high degree of confidence what with a high degree of confidence what it's going to look like over time and if it's going to look like over time and if it's going to look like over time and if you do that in a not particularly you do that in a not particularly you do that in a not particularly concentrated fashion and you don't concentrated fashion and you don't concentrated fashion and you don't borrow money against your securities you borrow money against your securities you borrow money against your securities you probably do much better than your probably do much better than your probably do much better than your typical mutual fund yeah it's typical mutual fund yeah it's typical mutual fund yeah it's interesting consumers that love a thing interesting consumers that love a thing interesting consumers that love a thing are actually good analysts of that thing are actually good analysts of that thing are actually good analysts of that thing or I guess a good starting point by way or I guess a good starting point by way or I guess a good starting point by way there's much more information available there's much more information available there's much more information available today when I was first investing

today when I was first investing today when I was first investing literally we had people faxing us literally we had people faxing us literally we had people faxing us documents from the SEC filings in documents from the SEC filings in documents from the SEC filings in Washington DC now everything's available Washington DC now everything's available Washington DC now everything's available online conference call transcripts are online conference call transcripts are online conference call transcripts are free um you know there you have you have free um you know there you have you have free um you know there you have you have ai you know you have uh unlimited uh ai you know you have uh unlimited uh ai you know you have uh unlimited uh data and uh all kinds of mess M boards data and uh all kinds of mess M boards data and uh all kinds of mess M boards and Reddit forums and things where and Reddit forums and things where and Reddit forums and things where people are you know sharing advice and people are you know sharing advice and people are you know sharing advice and everyone has their own you know by everyone has their own you know by everyone has their own you know by virtue of their career or experience virtue of their career or experience virtue of their career or experience they they'll they'll know about an they they'll they'll know about an they they'll they'll know about an industry or a business and that gives I industry or a business and that gives I industry or a business and that gives I would take advantage of your own would take advantage of your own would take advantage of your own competitive advantages I'm just afraid competitive advantages I'm just afraid competitive advantages I'm just afraid if I invest in Chipotle I'll be like if I invest in Chipotle I'll be like if I invest in Chipotle I'll be like analyzing every little change of menu analyzing every little change of menu analyzing every little change of menu from a financial perspective and just be from a financial perspective and just be from a financial perspective and just be very critical um if it's going to affect very critical um if it's going to affect very critical um if it's going to affect your experience I wouldn't I wouldn't your experience I wouldn't I wouldn't your experience I wouldn't I wouldn't buy the stock yeah I mean I I should buy the stock yeah I mean I I should buy the stock yeah I mean I I should also say that I am somebody that also say that I am somebody that also say that I am somebody that emotionally doesn't respond to emotionally doesn't respond to emotionally doesn't respond to volatility which is why I've never volatility which is why I've never volatility which is why I've never bought index funds and I just I just bought index funds and I just I just bought index funds and I just I just noticed myself psychologically being noticed myself psychologically being noticed myself psychologically being affected by the ups and downs of the affected by the ups and downs of the affected by the ups and downs of the market I want to tune out because if I'm market I want to tune out because if I'm market I want to tune out because if I'm at all tuned in it has a negative impact at all tuned in it has a negative impact at all tuned in it has a negative impact on my life yeah that's really important on my life yeah that's really important on my life yeah that's really important can you explain what activist investing can you explain what activist investing can you explain what activist investing is you've been talking about investing is you've been talking about investing is you've been talking about investing and then looking at companies when and then looking at companies when and then looking at companies when they're struggling stepping in and they're struggling stepping in and they're struggling stepping in and reconfiguring things within that company reconfiguring things within that company reconfiguring things within that company and helping it become great uh so that's and helping it become great uh so that's and helping it become great uh so that's part of it but let's just zoom out what part of it but let's just zoom out what part of it but let's just zoom out what what's this idea of activist investing I what's this idea of activist investing I what's this idea of activist investing I think recently in the last couple of

think recently in the last couple of think recently in the last couple of days I read an article saying that more days I read an article saying that more days I read an article saying that more than 50% of the capital in the world than 50% of the capital in the world than 50% of the capital in the world today that's in invest in the stock today that's in invest in the stock today that's in invest in the stock markets passive indexed money that's the markets passive indexed money that's the markets passive indexed money that's the most passive form right so if you think most passive form right so if you think most passive form right so if you think about an index fund a machine buys a about an index fund a machine buys a about an index fund a machine buys a fixed set of Securities in certain fixed set of Securities in certain fixed set of Securities in certain proportion uh there's no human Judgment proportion uh there's no human Judgment proportion uh there's no human Judgment at all and there's no real person behind at all and there's no real person behind at all and there's no real person behind it in a way um they never take steps to it in a way um they never take steps to it in a way um they never take steps to improve a business they just quietly own improve a business they just quietly own improve a business they just quietly own Securities what we do is we invest our Securities what we do is we invest our Securities what we do is we invest our capital in a handful of things you get capital in a handful of things you get capital in a handful of things you get to know them really really well because to know them really really well because to know them really really well because you're going to put 20% of your assets you're going to put 20% of your assets you're going to put 20% of your assets in something you need to know it really in something you need to know it really in something you need to know it really well but once you become a big holder well but once you become a big holder well but once you become a big holder and if you've got a some thoughts on how and if you've got a some thoughts on how and if you've got a some thoughts on how to make a business more valuable to make a business more valuable to make a business more valuable you can do more than just be a passive you can do more than just be a passive you can do more than just be a passive investor so our our strategy is built investor so our our strategy is built investor so our our strategy is built upon uh finding great companies in some upon uh finding great companies in some upon uh finding great companies in some cases that have lost their way and then cases that have lost their way and then cases that have lost their way and then helping them succeed and we can do that helping them succeed and we can do that helping them succeed and we can do that with ideas from outside the boardroom with ideas from outside the boardroom with ideas from outside the boardroom sometimes we take a seat at on a board sometimes we take a seat at on a board sometimes we take a seat at on a board or more than one um and we work with the or more than one um and we work with the or more than one um and we work with the best management teams in the world to best management teams in the world to best management teams in the world to help these businesses succeed so when I help these businesses succeed so when I help these businesses succeed so when I first went into this business no one first went into this business no one first went into this business no one knew who we knew who we knew who we were and we didn't have that much money were and we didn't have that much money were and we didn't have that much money and so to influence what was to us a big and so to influence what was to us a big and so to influence what was to us a big company uh we had to make a fair bit company uh we had to make a fair bit company uh we had to make a fair bit more noise right so we would buy a stake more noise right so we would buy a stake more noise right so we would buy a stake we' announce it publicly we attempt to

we' announce it publicly we attempt to we' announce it publicly we attempt to engage with management the first engage with management the first engage with management the first activist investment we made at persing activist investment we made at persing activist investment we made at persing Square was Wendy's I couldn't get the Square was Wendy's I couldn't get the Square was Wendy's I couldn't get the CEO to ever return my call didn't return CEO to ever return my call didn't return CEO to ever return my call didn't return my call so we actually in that case uh my call so we actually in that case uh my call so we actually in that case uh our idea was Wendy's own a company our idea was Wendy's own a company our idea was Wendy's own a company called Tim Hortons which was this coffee called Tim Hortons which was this coffee called Tim Hortons which was this coffee donut chain and you could buy Wendy's donut chain and you could buy Wendy's donut chain and you could buy Wendy's for basically $5 for basically $5 for basically $5 billion and they owned 100% of Tim billion and they owned 100% of Tim billion and they owned 100% of Tim Horton's which itself was worth more Horton's which itself was worth more Horton's which itself was worth more than 5 billion so you could literally than 5 billion so you could literally than 5 billion so you could literally buy Wendy's separate Tim Hortons and get buy Wendy's separate Tim Hortons and get buy Wendy's separate Tim Hortons and get Wendy's for negative value that seemed Wendy's for negative value that seemed Wendy's for negative value that seemed like a pretty good opportunity even like a pretty good opportunity even like a pretty good opportunity even though the business wasn't doing that though the business wasn't doing that though the business wasn't doing that well uh so we bought the stake called well uh so we bought the stake called well uh so we bought the stake called the CEO couldn't get a meeting nothing the CEO couldn't get a meeting nothing the CEO couldn't get a meeting nothing so we hired actually Blackstone which so we hired actually Blackstone which so we hired actually Blackstone which was at that time had at Investment Bank was at that time had at Investment Bank was at that time had at Investment Bank and we hired them to do what's called a and we hired them to do what's called a and we hired them to do what's called a fairness opinion of what Wendy's would fairness opinion of what Wendy's would fairness opinion of what Wendy's would be worth if they followed our advice and be worth if they followed our advice and be worth if they followed our advice and they agreed to do it paid them a fee for they agreed to do it paid them a fee for they agreed to do it paid them a fee for it and then we mailed in a letter with a it and then we mailed in a letter with a it and then we mailed in a letter with a copy of the fairness opinion saying copy of the fairness opinion saying copy of the fairness opinion saying monies would basically be worth 80% more monies would basically be worth 80% more monies would basically be worth 80% more if they did what we said and six weeks if they did what we said and six weeks if they did what we said and six weeks later they did what we said so that's later they did what we said so that's later they did what we said so that's activism at least an early form of activism at least an early form of activism at least an early form of activism with that kind of under our activism with that kind of under our activism with that kind of under our belt we had a little more credibility belt we had a little more credibility belt we had a little more credibility and now we started to take things and and now we started to take things and and now we started to take things and stakes in stakes in stakes in companies uh the media would pay companies uh the media would pay companies uh the media would pay attention so the media became a kind of attention so the media became a kind of attention so the media became a kind of an important partner and uh you know an important partner and uh you know an important partner and uh you know some combination of Shame embarrassment some combination of Shame embarrassment some combination of Shame embarrassment and opportunity and opportunity and opportunity uh motivated management teams to do the uh motivated management teams to do the uh motivated management teams to do the right thing and then you know beyond right thing and then you know beyond right thing and then you know beyond that uh there's certain steps you can that uh there's certain steps you can that uh there's certain steps you can take if management is Rec Cal trint and take if management is Rec Cal trint and take if management is Rec Cal trint and the shareholders are on your side but the shareholders are on your side but the shareholders are on your side but it's a bit like running for office

it's a bit like running for office it's a bit like running for office you've got to get all the constituents you've got to get all the constituents you've got to get all the constituents to support you and your ideas and if to support you and your ideas and if to support you and your ideas and if they support you in your ideas you can they support you in your ideas you can they support you in your ideas you can overthrow if you will the board of a overthrow if you will the board of a overthrow if you will the board of a company you bring in new talent and then company you bring in new talent and then company you bring in new talent and then take over the management of a business take over the management of a business take over the management of a business and that's the most extreme form of and that's the most extreme form of and that's the most extreme form of activism so that's kind of the early activism so that's kind of the early activism so that's kind of the early days what we did and a lot of the early days what we did and a lot of the early days what we did and a lot of the early things that we did were um you know call things that we did were um you know call things that we did were um you know call it what we call sort of like Investment it what we call sort of like Investment it what we call sort of like Investment Banking activism where we'd go in and Banking activism where we'd go in and Banking activism where we'd go in and recommend something a good investment recommend something a good investment recommend something a good investment bank would have recommended and if they bank would have recommended and if they bank would have recommended and if they do it we make a bunch of money and then do it we make a bunch of money and then do it we make a bunch of money and then we moved on to the next one and then we we moved on to the next one and then we we moved on to the next one and then we realized an investment in a company realized an investment in a company realized an investment in a company called General growth uh was the first called General growth uh was the first called General growth uh was the first time we took a board seat on a company time we took a board seat on a company time we took a board seat on a company and there was some Financial and there was some Financial and there was some Financial restructuring and also an opportunity to restructuring and also an opportunity to restructuring and also an opportunity to improve the operations of the business improve the operations of the business improve the operations of the business sit on the board of a company and that sit on the board of a company and that sit on the board of a company and that was one of the the best investments we was one of the the best investments we was one of the the best investments we ever made and we said okay we can do ever made and we said okay we can do ever made and we said okay we can do more than just be an outside the more than just be an outside the more than just be an outside the boardroom investor and we can get boardroom investor and we can get boardroom investor and we can get involved in helping select the right involved in helping select the right involved in helping select the right management teams and helping guide the management teams and helping guide the management teams and helping guide the right management teams and then we've right management teams and then we've right management teams and then we've done that over years uh and then I would done that over years uh and then I would done that over years uh and then I would say the last seven years we haven't had say the last seven years we haven't had say the last seven years we haven't had to be an activist an activist is to be an activist an activist is to be an activist an activist is generally someone who's outside banging generally someone who's outside banging generally someone who's outside banging on the door trying to get in we're sort on the door trying to get in we're sort on the door trying to get in we're sort of built enough credibility that they of built enough credibility that they of built enough credibility that they open the door and they say hey Bill what open the door and they say hey Bill what open the door and they say hey Bill what ideas do you have so welcome would you ideas do you have so welcome would you ideas do you have so welcome would you like to join the board we're treated like to join the board we're treated like to join the board we're treated differently today than we were in the differently today than we were in the differently today than we were in the beginning and that uh um is I would say beginning and that uh um is I would say beginning and that uh um is I would say some people might just call it being an some people might just call it being an some people might just call it being an Engaged owner that by the way that's the

Engaged owner that by the way that's the Engaged owner that by the way that's the way investing was done in the Andrew way investing was done in the Andrew way investing was done in the Andrew Carnegie JP Morgan days you know 150 Carnegie JP Morgan days you know 150 Carnegie JP Morgan days you know 150 years ago right you had these iconic years ago right you had these iconic years ago right you had these iconic Business Leaders that would own 20% of Business Leaders that would own 20% of Business Leaders that would own 20% of us steel and when things would go wrong us steel and when things would go wrong us steel and when things would go wrong they'd replace the board and the they'd replace the board and the they'd replace the board and the management and fix them and over time we management and fix them and over time we management and fix them and over time we went to a world where mutual funds were went to a world where mutual funds were went to a world where mutual funds were created like in the 1920s 30s index created like in the 1920s 30s index created like in the 1920s 30s index funds uh with Vanguard and others and funds uh with Vanguard and others and funds uh with Vanguard and others and that all these controlling shareholders that all these controlling shareholders that all these controlling shareholders would you know kind of gave their stock would you know kind of gave their stock would you know kind of gave their stock to society or their children and to society or their children and to society or their children and multiple generations and there were no multiple generations and there were no multiple generations and there were no longer kind of controlling owners of longer kind of controlling owners of longer kind of controlling owners of businesses or very few and that led to businesses or very few and that led to businesses or very few and that led to underperformance and the opportunity for underperformance and the opportunity for underperformance and the opportunity for for activists over time and what for activists over time and what for activists over time and what activism has done I think we've helped activism has done I think we've helped activism has done I think we've helped lead this movement is it restored kind lead this movement is it restored kind lead this movement is it restored kind of the balance of power between the of the balance of power between the of the balance of power between the owners of the business and the owners of the business and the owners of the business and the managements of the company and that's managements of the company and that's managements of the company and that's been a very good thing for the been a very good thing for the been a very good thing for the performance of the of the US Stock performance of the of the US Stock performance of the of the US Stock Market actually so the owners meaning Market actually so the owners meaning Market actually so the owners meaning the shareholders yes and so there's a the shareholders yes and so there's a the shareholders yes and so there's a more direct channel of communication more direct channel of communication more direct channel of communication with with activists investing between with with activists investing between with with activists investing between the shareholders and the people running the shareholders and the people running the shareholders and the people running the company yes so activists generally the company yes so activists generally the company yes so activists generally never own more than five or 10% of a never own more than five or 10% of a never own more than five or 10% of a business so they don't have control so business so they don't have control so business so they don't have control so the way they get influence is they have the way they get influence is they have the way they get influence is they have to convince the other you know M they to convince the other you know M they to convince the other you know M they have to get to sort of a majority of the have to get to sort of a majority of the have to get to sort of a majority of the other shareholders to support them and other shareholders to support them and other shareholders to support them and if they can get that kind of support if they can get that kind of support if they can get that kind of support they can behave almost like a they can behave almost like a they can behave almost like a controlling shareholder and that's how controlling shareholder and that's how controlling shareholder and that's how it works so the running of a compan is it works so the running of a compan is it works so the running of a compan is uh according to bill akman is more

uh according to bill akman is more uh according to bill akman is more democratic now it is it is but you need democratic now it is it is but you need democratic now it is it is but you need some thought leaders so activists are some thought leaders so activists are some thought leaders so activists are kind of thought leaders because they can kind of thought leaders because they can kind of thought leaders because they can spend the time and the money uh you know spend the time and the money uh you know spend the time and the money uh you know a retail investor that owns a th shares a retail investor that owns a th shares a retail investor that owns a th shares is doesn't have the the the resources of is doesn't have the the the resources of is doesn't have the the the resources of the time they got a dat job whereas an the time they got a dat job whereas an the time they got a dat job whereas an activist day job is finding the handful activist day job is finding the handful activist day job is finding the handful of things where there are of things where there are of things where there are opportunities so on average is it good opportunities so on average is it good opportunities so on average is it good to have such an Engaged powerful to have such an Engaged powerful to have such an Engaged powerful influential influential influential investor helping control direct the investor helping control direct the investor helping control direct the direction of a company it depends who direction of a company it depends who direction of a company it depends who that investor is but generally I think that investor is but generally I think that investor is but generally I think it's a good thing uh and that's why you it's a good thing uh and that's why you it's a good thing uh and that's why you know one of the problems with being CEO know one of the problems with being CEO know one of the problems with being CEO of a company today and having a very of a company today and having a very of a company today and having a very Diversified shareholder base is the kind Diversified shareholder base is the kind Diversified shareholder base is the kind of short-term long-term balance and you of short-term long-term balance and you of short-term long-term balance and you have investors that have all different have investors that have all different have investors that have all different interests in terms of what they want to interests in terms of what they want to interests in terms of what they want to achieve and when they want it achieved achieve and when they want it achieved achieve and when they want it achieved and uh CEO of a new company hasn't a new and uh CEO of a new company hasn't a new and uh CEO of a new company hasn't a new CEO of an old company let's say hasn't CEO of an old company let's say hasn't CEO of an old company let's say hasn't had the chance to develop The had the chance to develop The had the chance to develop The credibility uh to make uh the kind of credibility uh to make uh the kind of credibility uh to make uh the kind of longer term decisions and can be stuck longer term decisions and can be stuck longer term decisions and can be stuck in a cycle of being judged on a in a cycle of being judged on a in a cycle of being judged on a quarterly basis and a business the best quarterly basis and a business the best quarterly basis and a business the best businesses are forever assets and businesses are forever assets and businesses are forever assets and decisions you make now have impact 3 decisions you make now have impact 3 decisions you make now have impact 3 four or 5 years from now in order to four or 5 years from now in order to four or 5 years from now in order to make and sometimes there are decisions make and sometimes there are decisions make and sometimes there are decisions we make that have the effect of of we make that have the effect of of we make that have the effect of of reducing the earnings of a company in reducing the earnings of a company in reducing the earnings of a company in the short term because in the long term the short term because in the long term the short term because in the long term it's going to make the business much it's going to make the business much it's going to make the business much more valuable uh but it sometimes it's more valuable uh but it sometimes it's more valuable uh but it sometimes it's hard to have that kind of credibility

hard to have that kind of credibility hard to have that kind of credibility when you're a new CEO of a company so when you're a new CEO of a company so when you're a new CEO of a company so when you have a major when you have a major when you have a major owner uh that's respected by other owner uh that's respected by other owner uh that's respected by other shareholders sitting on the board saying shareholders sitting on the board saying shareholders sitting on the board saying hey the CEO is doing the right thing and hey the CEO is doing the right thing and hey the CEO is doing the right thing and making this expensive investment in a making this expensive investment in a making this expensive investment in a new Factory we're spending more money on new Factory we're spending more money on new Factory we're spending more money on R&D uh because we're developing R&D uh because we're developing R&D uh because we're developing something that's going to pay off over something that's going to pay off over something that's going to pay off over time that large owner on the board uh time that large owner on the board uh time that large owner on the board uh can help buy the time necessary for can help buy the time necessary for can help buy the time necessary for management to behave in a longer term management to behave in a longer term management to behave in a longer term way and that's I think good for all the way and that's I think good for all the way and that's I think good for all the shareholders so that's the good story shareholders so that's the good story shareholders so that's the good story but can it get bad can you have a a CEO but can it get bad can you have a a CEO but can it get bad can you have a a CEO who is a Visionary and sees the who is a Visionary and sees the who is a Visionary and sees the long-term future of a company and an long-term future of a company and an long-term future of a company and an investor come in and have very selfish investor come in and have very selfish investor come in and have very selfish interest in just making more money in interest in just making more money in interest in just making more money in the short term and therefore destroy and the short term and therefore destroy and the short term and therefore destroy and manipulate the opinions of the manipulate the opinions of the manipulate the opinions of the shareholders and other people on the shareholders and other people on the shareholders and other people on the board in order to syn the board in order to syn the board in order to syn the company maybe increase the increase the company maybe increase the increase the company maybe increase the increase the price but uh destroy the possibility of price but uh destroy the possibility of price but uh destroy the possibility of long-term value could theoretically long-term value could theoretically long-term value could theoretically happen but again the the activist in happen but again the the activist in happen but again the the activist in your example jally doesn't own a lot of your example jally doesn't own a lot of your example jally doesn't own a lot of stock uh the shareholder bases today the stock uh the shareholder bases today the stock uh the shareholder bases today the biggest shareholders are these index biggest shareholders are these index biggest shareholders are these index funds that are forever right the Black funds that are forever right the Black funds that are forever right the Black Rock Vanguard State Street their Rock Vanguard State Street their Rock Vanguard State Street their ownership Stakes are just at this point ownership Stakes are just at this point ownership Stakes are just at this point only growing because of the inflows of only growing because of the inflows of only growing because of the inflows of capital they have from shareholders so capital they have from shareholders so capital they have from shareholders so they have to think or they should think they have to think or they should think they have to think or they should think very longterm and they're going to be very longterm and they're going to be very longterm and they're going to be very skeptical of someone coming in with very skeptical of someone coming in with very skeptical of someone coming in with a short-term idea that drives the stock a short-term idea that drives the stock a short-term idea that drives the stock price up you know in the next six months

price up you know in the next six months price up you know in the next six months but impairs the company's long-term but impairs the company's long-term but impairs the company's long-term ability to compete and basically that ability to compete and basically that ability to compete and basically that ownership group uh prevents this kind of ownership group uh prevents this kind of ownership group uh prevents this kind of activity from really happening so people activity from really happening so people activity from really happening so people are generally skeptical of short-term are generally skeptical of short-term are generally skeptical of short-term activists in investors yes they're and activists in investors yes they're and activists in investors yes they're and they're very few I don't really know any they're very few I don't really know any they're very few I don't really know any short-term activist investors that's a short-term activist investors that's a short-term activist investors that's a not ones with not ones with not ones with credibility you mentioned uh General credibility you mentioned uh General credibility you mentioned uh General growth I read somewhere called arguably growth I read somewhere called arguably growth I read somewhere called arguably one of the best hedge fund trades of all one of the best hedge fund trades of all one of the best hedge fund trades of all time so uh I guess it went from $60 time so uh I guess it went from $60 time so uh I guess it went from $60 million to over three billion it was it million to over three billion it was it million to over three billion it was it was a good one all right but it wasn't a was a good one all right but it wasn't a was a good one all right but it wasn't a trade I wouldn't describe it as a trade trade I wouldn't describe it as a trade trade I wouldn't describe it as a trade a trade is something you buy and you a trade is something you buy and you a trade is something you buy and you flip this is something where we made the flip this is something where we made the flip this is something where we made the investment initially in November of investment initially in November of investment initially in November of 2008 uh and uh we still own a company we 2008 uh and uh we still own a company we 2008 uh and uh we still own a company we spun off of General growth and it's now spun off of General growth and it's now spun off of General growth and it's now 15 years later so can can you describe 15 years later so can can you describe 15 years later so can can you describe what went into making that decision to what went into making that decision to what went into making that decision to actually increasing the value of the actually increasing the value of the actually increasing the value of the company sure so this was at the time of company sure so this was at the time of company sure so this was at the time of the financial crisis uh Circa November the financial crisis uh Circa November the financial crisis uh Circa November 2008 what real estate's always been a 2008 what real estate's always been a 2008 what real estate's always been a kind of sector that I've been interested kind of sector that I've been interested kind of sector that I've been interested in I began my career in the real estate in I began my career in the real estate in I began my career in the real estate business working for my dad actually uh business working for my dad actually uh business working for my dad actually uh ranging mortgage Is For Real Estate ranging mortgage Is For Real Estate ranging mortgage Is For Real Estate developers so I I have uh kind of deep developers so I I have uh kind of deep developers so I I have uh kind of deep deep ties and interest in the business deep ties and interest in the business deep ties and interest in the business and general growth was the second and general growth was the second and general growth was the second largest shopping mall company in the largest shopping mall company in the largest shopping mall company in the country uh Simon properties many people country uh Simon properties many people country uh Simon properties many people have heard of General growth was number have heard of General growth was number have heard of General growth was number two they own some of the best malls in two they own some of the best malls in two they own some of the best malls in the country and at that time people the country and at that time people the country and at that time people thought of shopping malls as these non-d

thought of shopping malls as these non-d thought of shopping malls as these non-d disruptable things again we talk about disruptable things again we talk about disruptable things again we talk about disruption malls have been disrupted in disruption malls have been disrupted in disruption malls have been disrupted in many ways uh and general growth stock uh many ways uh and general growth stock uh many ways uh and general growth stock uh the general growth the company the CFO the general growth the company the CFO the general growth the company the CFO in particular was very aggressive in the in particular was very aggressive in the in particular was very aggressive in the way that he borrowed money and he way that he borrowed money and he way that he borrowed money and he borrowed money from a kind of Wall borrowed money from a kind of Wall borrowed money from a kind of Wall Street uh not long-term uh mortgages but Street uh not long-term uh mortgages but Street uh not long-term uh mortgages but generally relatively short-term generally relatively short-term generally relatively short-term mortgages he was pretty aggressive as mortgages he was pretty aggressive as mortgages he was pretty aggressive as the value went up he would borrow more the value went up he would borrow more the value went up he would borrow more and more against the assets and that and more against the assets and that and more against the assets and that helped the shortterm results of the helped the shortterm results of the helped the shortterm results of the business the problem was during the business the problem was during the business the problem was during the financial crisis the the market for financial crisis the the market for financial crisis the the market for what's called cnbs commercial mortgage what's called cnbs commercial mortgage what's called cnbs commercial mortgage back Securities basically shut and the back Securities basically shut and the back Securities basically shut and the company because its debt was relatively company because its debt was relatively company because its debt was relatively short-term had a lot of big maturities short-term had a lot of big maturities short-term had a lot of big maturities coming up that they had no ability to coming up that they had no ability to coming up that they had no ability to refinance and the market said oh my God refinance and the market said oh my God refinance and the market said oh my God the lenders are going to foreclose and the lenders are going to foreclose and the lenders are going to foreclose and the shareholders going to get wiped the the shareholders going to get wiped the the shareholders going to get wiped the company's going to go bankrupt they company's going to go bankrupt they company's going to go bankrupt they going to get wiped out the stock went going to get wiped out the stock went going to get wiped out the stock went from $63 a share to 34 so and there was from $63 a share to 34 so and there was from $63 a share to 34 so and there was a family the buck bound family owned I a family the buck bound family owned I a family the buck bound family owned I think about 25% of the company and the think about 25% of the company and the think about 25% of the company and the they had a $5 billion five billion stock they had a $5 billion five billion stock they had a $5 billion five billion stock that was worth 25 million or something that was worth 25 million or something that was worth 25 million or something by the time we bought a stake in the by the time we bought a stake in the by the time we bought a stake in the business and what interested me was uh I business and what interested me was uh I business and what interested me was uh I thought the assets were worth thought the assets were worth thought the assets were worth substantially more than the liabilities substantially more than the liabilities substantially more than the liabilities the company had 27 billion of debt and the company had 27 billion of debt and the company had 27 billion of debt and had $100 million value of the equity had $100 million value of the equity had $100 million value of the equity down from like 20 billion okay and one down from like 20 billion okay and one down from like 20 billion okay and one that you know sort of an interesting that you know sort of an interesting that you know sort of an interesting place to start with a stock down place to start with a stock down place to start with a stock down 99% but the fundamental drivers the mall 99% but the fundamental drivers the mall 99% but the fundamental drivers the mall business are occupancy how occupied are

business are occupancy how occupied are business are occupancy how occupied are the malls occupancy was up year on-year the malls occupancy was up year on-year the malls occupancy was up year on-year between 07 and 08 interestingly net between 07 and 08 interestingly net between 07 and 08 interestingly net operating income which is kind of a operating income which is kind of a operating income which is kind of a measure of cash flow from the malls that measure of cash flow from the malls that measure of cash flow from the malls that was up year on-ear so of the underlying was up year on-ear so of the underlying was up year on-ear so of the underlying fundamentals were doing fine the only fundamentals were doing fine the only fundamentals were doing fine the only problem they had is they had billions of problem they had is they had billions of problem they had is they had billions of dollars of debt that they had to repay dollars of debt that they had to repay dollars of debt that they had to repay they couldn't repay and if you kind of they couldn't repay and if you kind of they couldn't repay and if you kind of examine the bankruptcy code um that it's examine the bankruptcy code um that it's examine the bankruptcy code um that it's precisely designed for a situation like precisely designed for a situation like precisely designed for a situation like this where it's kind of this resting this where it's kind of this resting this where it's kind of this resting place you can go uh to kind of re re uh place you can go uh to kind of re re uh place you can go uh to kind of re re uh restructure your business now the restructure your business now the restructure your business now the problem was that every other company problem was that every other company problem was that every other company that had gone bankrupt the shareholders that had gone bankrupt the shareholders that had gone bankrupt the shareholders got wiped out and so so the market got wiped out and so so the market got wiped out and so so the market seeing every previous example the sholds seeing every previous example the sholds seeing every previous example the sholds get wiped out the assumption is the get wiped out the assumption is the get wiped out the assumption is the stock is going to go to zero that's not stock is going to go to zero that's not stock is going to go to zero that's not what the bankruptcy code says what the what the bankruptcy code says what the what the bankruptcy code says what the bankruptcy bankruptcy code says is that bankruptcy bankruptcy code says is that bankruptcy bankruptcy code says is that the value gets apportioned based on the value gets apportioned based on the value gets apportioned based on value and if you could prove to a judge value and if you could prove to a judge value and if you could prove to a judge that there was the assets worth more that there was the assets worth more that there was the assets worth more than the liabilities then the than the liabilities then the than the liabilities then the shareholders actually get to keep their shareholders actually get to keep their shareholders actually get to keep their investment in the investment in the investment in the company and that was the bet we made and company and that was the bet we made and company and that was the bet we made and so we stepped into the market we bought so we stepped into the market we bought so we stepped into the market we bought 25% of the company in the open market 25% of the company in the open market 25% of the company in the open market for we had to pay up it started at at 34 for we had to pay up it started at at 34 for we had to pay up it started at at 34 I think there were 300 million shares so I think there were 300 million shares so I think there were 300 million shares so it was at a $100 million value by the it was at a $100 million value by the it was at a $100 million value by the time we were done we paid an average of time we were done we paid an average of time we were done we paid an average of we paid 60 million for 25% of the we paid 60 million for 25% of the we paid 60 million for 25% of the business so about $240 million for the business so about $240 million for the business so about $240 million for the equity of the company and then we had to equity of the company and then we had to equity of the company and then we had to get on the board to convince the get on the board to convince the get on the board to convince the director is the right thing to do and director is the right thing to do and director is the right thing to do and the board was in complete Panic didn't the board was in complete Panic didn't the board was in complete Panic didn't know what to do spending a ton of money

know what to do spending a ton of money know what to do spending a ton of money on on on advisers and you know I was a advisers and you know I was a advisers and you know I was a shareholder activist you know four years shareholder activist you know four years shareholder activist you know four years into persing square and no one had any into persing square and no one had any into persing square and no one had any idea what we were doing they thought we idea what we were doing they thought we idea what we were doing they thought we were crazy every day stop every day we' were crazy every day stop every day we' were crazy every day stop every day we' go into the market and we'd buy this go into the market and we'd buy this go into the market and we'd buy this Penny Stock and we'd file what's called Penny Stock and we'd file what's called Penny Stock and we'd file what's called a 13d every 1% increase in our stake and a 13d every 1% increase in our stake and a 13d every 1% increase in our stake and people just thought we were crazy we're people just thought we were crazy we're people just thought we were crazy we're buying stock in a company that's going buying stock in a company that's going buying stock in a company that's going to go bankrupt Bill you're going to lose to go bankrupt Bill you're going to lose to go bankrupt Bill you're going to lose all your money you know run okay and I all your money you know run okay and I all your money you know run okay and I said well wait you know bankrupcy code said well wait you know bankrupcy code said well wait you know bankrupcy code says that there's more asset value than says that there's more asset value than says that there's more asset value than liabilities we should be fine and the liabilities we should be fine and the liabilities we should be fine and the key moment if you're looking for uh fun key moment if you're looking for uh fun key moment if you're looking for uh fun moments is there's woman named Maddie moments is there's woman named Maddie moments is there's woman named Maddie Buck bound uh who was from the buck Buck bound uh who was from the buck Buck bound uh who was from the buck bound family and uh her cousin John was bound family and uh her cousin John was bound family and uh her cousin John was chairman of the board CEO of the company chairman of the board CEO of the company chairman of the board CEO of the company and I said as she calls me after we and I said as she calls me after we and I said as she calls me after we disclose our stake in the company she's disclose our stake in the company she's disclose our stake in the company she's like Billy Amman I'm really glad to see like Billy Amman I'm really glad to see like Billy Amman I'm really glad to see you here and I met her like I don't you here and I met her like I don't you here and I met her like I don't think it was a date but I kind of met think it was a date but I kind of met think it was a date but I kind of met her in a social context when I was like her in a social context when I was like her in a social context when I was like 25 or something and she said look I'm 25 or something and she said look I'm 25 or something and she said look I'm really glad to see you here and there really glad to see you here and there really glad to see you here and there anything I can do to help you call me I anything I can do to help you call me I anything I can do to help you call me I said said said sure uh we kept trying to get on the sure uh we kept trying to get on the sure uh we kept trying to get on the board of the company they wouldn't board of the company they wouldn't board of the company they wouldn't invite us on couldn't really run a proxy invite us on couldn't really run a proxy invite us on couldn't really run a proxy contest that you know not with a company contest that you know not with a company contest that you know not with a company going bankrupt and their advisers going bankrupt and their advisers going bankrupt and their advisers actually were Goldman Sachs and they're actually were Goldman Sachs and they're actually were Goldman Sachs and they're like you don't want the fox in the hen like you don't want the fox in the hen like you don't want the fox in the hen house and they were listening to their house and they were listening to their house and they were listening to their advisors so I called Maddie up and I advisors so I called Maddie up and I advisors so I called Maddie up and I said Maddie I need to get on the board said Maddie I need to get on the board said Maddie I need to get on the board of the company to help and she says you of the company to help and she says you of the company to help and she says you know what I will call my cousin and I'll know what I will call my cousin and I'll know what I will call my cousin and I'll get it

get it get it done uh like you know she calls back a done uh like you know she calls back a done uh like you know she calls back a few hours later you'll be going on to few hours later you'll be going on to few hours later you'll be going on to the board I don't know what she said to the board I don't know what she said to the board I don't know what she said to her but she was convincing next thing her but she was convincing next thing her but she was convincing next thing you know I'm invited to on the board of you know I'm invited to on the board of you know I'm invited to on the board of the company and the board is talking the company and the board is talking the company and the board is talking about the old Equity of General growth about the old Equity of General growth about the old Equity of General growth old Equity is what you talk about the old Equity is what you talk about the old Equity is what you talk about the shareholders are getting wiped out I shareholders are getting wiped out I shareholders are getting wiped out I said no no no this board represents the said no no no this board represents the said no no no this board represents the current Equity of the company and I'm a current Equity of the company and I'm a current Equity of the company and I'm a major shareholder John's a major major shareholder John's a major major shareholder John's a major shareholder there's plenty of asset shareholder there's plenty of asset shareholder there's plenty of asset value here this company should be able value here this company should be able value here this company should be able to rest be restructured for the benefit to rest be restructured for the benefit to rest be restructured for the benefit of shareholders and we let a of shareholders and we let a of shareholders and we let a restructuring for the benefit of restructuring for the benefit of restructuring for the benefit of shareholders and it took let's say uh shareholders and it took let's say uh shareholders and it took let's say uh eight months and the company emerged eight months and the company emerged eight months and the company emerged from chapter 11 we made an incremental from chapter 11 we made an incremental from chapter 11 we made an incremental investment into the investment into the investment into the company and the shareholders kept the company and the shareholders kept the company and the shareholders kept the vast majority of their investment uh all vast majority of their investment uh all vast majority of their investment uh all the creditors got their you know face the creditors got their you know face the creditors got their you know face amount of their investment par plus a c amount of their investment par plus a c amount of their investment par plus a c crude interest and it was a great crude interest and it was a great crude interest and it was a great outcome all the employees kept their outcome all the employees kept their outcome all the employees kept their jobs the mall stayed open there was no jobs the mall stayed open there was no jobs the mall stayed open there was no liquidation the bankruptcy system worked liquidation the bankruptcy system worked liquidation the bankruptcy system worked the way it should uh you know I was in the way it should uh you know I was in the way it should uh you know I was in court you know all the time and the court you know all the time and the court you know all the time and the first uh meeting with the judge the first uh meeting with the judge the first uh meeting with the judge the judge is like look this would never have judge is like look this would never have judge is like look this would never have happened were it not for a financial happened were it not for a financial happened were it not for a financial crisis and once the judge said I knew we crisis and once the judge said I knew we crisis and once the judge said I knew we were going to be fine because the were going to be fine because the were going to be fine because the company really not done anything company really not done anything company really not done anything fundamentally wrong maybe a little too fundamentally wrong maybe a little too fundamentally wrong maybe a little too aggressive in how they borrowed money aggressive in how they borrowed money aggressive in how they borrowed money and uh stock went from 34 cents to $31 a and uh stock went from 34 cents to $31 a and uh stock went from 34 cents to $31 a share and actually fun little anecdote share and actually fun little anecdote share and actually fun little anecdote um we made a lot of people a lot of um we made a lot of people a lot of um we made a lot of people a lot of money who follow us into it I got a lot money who follow us into it I got a lot money who follow us into it I got a lot of nice thank you notes which you get on

of nice thank you notes which you get on of nice thank you notes which you get on occasion in this business believe it or occasion in this business believe it or occasion in this business believe it or not and then one day I get a voicemail not and then one day I get a voicemail not and then one day I get a voicemail this is when there was something called this is when there was something called this is when there was something called voicemail probably a few years later voicemail probably a few years later voicemail probably a few years later and it's a guy with a very thick and it's a guy with a very thick and it's a guy with a very thick Jamaican accent leaving a message for Jamaican accent leaving a message for Jamaican accent leaving a message for Bill Amman so you know I return all my Bill Amman so you know I return all my Bill Amman so you know I return all my calls call the guy back he's like hi calls call the guy back he's like hi calls call the guy back he's like hi it's Bill Amman I'm just returning your it's Bill Amman I'm just returning your it's Bill Amman I'm just returning your call he's oh Mr call he's oh Mr call he's oh Mr Amman uh thank you so much for calling Amman uh thank you so much for calling Amman uh thank you so much for calling me and I said oh how can I help he says me and I said oh how can I help he says me and I said oh how can I help he says I wanted to thank you I said what do you I wanted to thank you I said what do you I wanted to thank you I said what do you mean he said I saw you on CNBC you know mean he said I saw you on CNBC you know mean he said I saw you on CNBC you know a couple years ago and you were talking a couple years ago and you were talking a couple years ago and you were talking about this General growth and the stock about this General growth and the stock about this General growth and the stock I said where was the stock at the time I said where was the stock at the time I said where was the stock at the time he said it's 60 Cent or something like he said it's 60 Cent or something like he said it's 60 Cent or something like this and I bought a lot of this and I bought a lot of this and I bought a lot of stock and I'm like well how much did you stock and I'm like well how much did you stock and I'm like well how much did you invest oh I invest all of my money in invest oh I invest all of my money in invest oh I invest all of my money in the company and he was a New York City the company and he was a New York City the company and he was a New York City Taxi Driver and he invested like $50,000 Taxi Driver and he invested like $50,000 Taxi Driver and he invested like $50,000 or something like this at 60 cents a or something like this at 60 cents a or something like this at 60 cents a share and he was still holding it and he share and he was still holding it and he share and he was still holding it and he went into retirement and he made you went into retirement and he made you went into retirement and he made you know 50 times his money and uh yeah know 50 times his money and uh yeah know 50 times his money and uh yeah those are the moments that you feel those are the moments that you feel those are the moments that you feel pretty good about investing well give pretty good about investing well give pretty good about investing well give you confidence through that went to you confidence through that went to you confidence through that went to Penny Stock and I'm sure you were Penny Stock and I'm sure you were Penny Stock and I'm sure you were getting a lot of naysay and people getting a lot of naysay and people getting a lot of naysay and people saying that this is crazy it's the same saying that this is crazy it's the same saying that this is crazy it's the same thing you just do the work like we got a thing you just do the work like we got a thing you just do the work like we got a lot of push back from our investors lot of push back from our investors lot of push back from our investors actually because we had never invested actually because we had never invested actually because we had never invested in a bankrupt company before it's a in a bankrupt company before it's a in a bankrupt company before it's a field called distressed investing and field called distressed investing and field called distressed investing and they're dedicated uh distressed they're dedicated uh distressed they're dedicated uh distressed investors and we weren't considered one investors and we weren't considered one investors and we weren't considered one of them so Bill what are you doing you

of them so Bill what are you doing you of them so Bill what are you doing you don't know anything about distressed don't know anything about distressed don't know anything about distressed investing you don't know anything about investing you don't know anything about investing you don't know anything about bankruptcy bankruptcy bankruptcy investing um but I can read I can you investing um but I can read I can you investing um but I can read I can you learned and I learned and it sometimes learned and I learned and it sometimes learned and I learned and it sometimes it's very helpful not to be a it's very helpful not to be a it's very helpful not to be a practitioner an expert in something practitioner an expert in something practitioner an expert in something because you get used to the conventional because you get used to the conventional because you get used to the conventional wisdom and so we just you know wisdom and so we just you know wisdom and so we just you know abstractly read the uh step back and abstractly read the uh step back and abstractly read the uh step back and look at the facts and and it was just a look at the facts and and it was just a look at the facts and and it was just a really interesting setup for uh one of really interesting setup for uh one of really interesting setup for uh one of the best investments we ever made how the best investments we ever made how the best investments we ever made how hard is it to learn some of the legal hard is it to learn some of the legal hard is it to learn some of the legal aspects of this like you mentioned aspects of this like you mentioned aspects of this like you mentioned bankruptcy code like I imagine it's very bankruptcy code like I imagine it's very bankruptcy code like I imagine it's very sort of dense language and dense ideas sort of dense language and dense ideas sort of dense language and dense ideas and the loopholes and all that kind of and the loopholes and all that kind of and the loopholes and all that kind of stuff like if you're just stepping in stuff like if you're just stepping in stuff like if you're just stepping in and you've never done distressed and you've never done distressed and you've never done distressed investing how hard is it to figure out investing how hard is it to figure out investing how hard is it to figure out it's not that hard no it's not that hard it's not that hard no it's not that hard it's not that hard no it's not that hard okay me I literally read a book on okay me I literally read a book on okay me I literally read a book on distress investing okay Ben Branch or distress investing okay Ben Branch or distress investing okay Ben Branch or something something on distressed inest something something on distressed inest something something on distressed inest so you were able to pick up the so you were able to pick up the so you were able to pick up the intuition from that just all the uh the intuition from that just all the uh the intuition from that just all the uh the basic skills involved the basic facts to basic skills involved the basic facts to basic skills involved the basic facts to know all that kind of stuff most of the know all that kind of stuff most of the know all that kind of stuff most of the world's knowledge has already been world's knowledge has already been world's knowledge has already been written somewhere you just got to read written somewhere you just got to read written somewhere you just got to read the right books the right books the right books and uh also had great and uh also had great and uh also had great lawyers uh you know built up some great lawyers uh you know built up some great lawyers uh you know built up some great relationships we we work with svin and relationships we we work with svin and relationships we we work with svin and Cromwell and the lawyer there named Joe Cromwell and the lawyer there named Joe Cromwell and the lawyer there named Joe Shanker who I met earlier in my career Shanker who I met earlier in my career Shanker who I met earlier in my career persan square is actually my second act persan square is actually my second act persan square is actually my second act in the hedge fund business I started a in the hedge fund business I started a in the hedge fund business I started a fund called Gotham Partners when I was fund called Gotham Partners when I was fund called Gotham Partners when I was 26 one of my early Investments was a 26 one of my early Investments was a 26 one of my early Investments was a company called Rockefeller Center company called Rockefeller Center company called Rockefeller Center properties that was heading for properties that was heading for properties that was heading for bankruptcy and uh the lawyer on the

bankruptcy and uh the lawyer on the bankruptcy and uh the lawyer on the other side representing Goldman Sachs other side representing Goldman Sachs other side representing Goldman Sachs was a guy named Joe Shanker so he was was a guy named Joe Shanker so he was was a guy named Joe Shanker so he was like an obvious phone call because had like an obvious phone call because had like an obvious phone call because had yet another real estate State bankruptcy yet another real estate State bankruptcy yet another real estate State bankruptcy in that one we we did very well but I in that one we we did very well but I in that one we we did very well but I missed the big opportunity and uh I I I missed the big opportunity and uh I I I missed the big opportunity and uh I I I suffered severe psychological torture suffered severe psychological torture suffered severe psychological torture every time I walked by Rock pH Center every time I walked by Rock pH Center every time I walked by Rock pH Center because we could have made we knew more because we could have made we knew more because we could have made we knew more about that property anyone else but I about that property anyone else but I about that property anyone else but I knew less about deal making and didn't knew less about deal making and didn't knew less about deal making and didn't have the resources and I was 28 years have the resources and I was 28 years have the resources and I was 28 years old or old or old or 27 um and they hired a better lawyer 27 um and they hired a better lawyer 27 um and they hired a better lawyer than we did and uh they outsmarted us on than we did and uh they outsmarted us on than we did and uh they outsmarted us on that one in a way so I said okay I'm that one in a way so I said okay I'm that one in a way so I said okay I'm going to go hire this guy the next time going to go hire this guy the next time going to go hire this guy the next time around so okay well well we'll probably around so okay well well we'll probably around so okay well well we'll probably talk about Rockefeller Center and some talk about Rockefeller Center and some talk about Rockefeller Center and some failures uh but first he said fox in the failures uh but first he said fox in the failures uh but first he said fox in the hen housee yes something that the board hen housee yes something that the board hen housee yes something that the board and the chairman were worried about why and the chairman were worried about why and the chairman were worried about why would they call you a fox so you you would they call you a fox so you you would they call you a fox so you you keep saying activist investing is uh keep saying activist investing is uh keep saying activist investing is uh there's nothing to worry about it's there's nothing to worry about it's there's nothing to worry about it's always good sure mostly good but you always good sure mostly good but you always good sure mostly good but you know that expression applied in this know that expression applied in this know that expression applied in this context you know they were still worried context you know they were still worried context you know they were still worried about that sure and so I mean there's a about that sure and so I mean there's a about that sure and so I mean there's a million questions here but first of all million questions here but first of all million questions here but first of all what does the process of getting on the what does the process of getting on the what does the process of getting on the board look like so a board can always board look like so a board can always board look like so a board can always admit a member at any time in their admit a member at any time in their admit a member at any time in their discretion for a US company um you that discretion for a US company um you that discretion for a US company um you that maybe there's some jurisdiction where maybe there's some jurisdiction where maybe there's some jurisdiction where you need a shareholder vote but in most you need a shareholder vote but in most you need a shareholder vote but in most cases a board can vote on any director cases a board can vote on any director cases a board can vote on any director that they want if the board doesn't that they want if the board doesn't that they want if the board doesn't invite you to the party you have to invite you to the party you have to invite you to the party you have to apply to be a member in effect and that apply to be a member in effect and that apply to be a member in effect and that process is called um you know basically

process is called um you know basically process is called um you know basically is this the process of uh ultimately is this the process of uh ultimately is this the process of uh ultimately running a uh a slate for a meeting where running a uh a slate for a meeting where running a uh a slate for a meeting where you propose a number every any you propose a number every any you propose a number every any shareholder can propose to be on a board shareholder can propose to be on a board shareholder can propose to be on a board of a company if they own one share of of a company if they own one share of of a company if they own one share of stock uh in the business and uh getting stock uh in the business and uh getting stock uh in the business and uh getting your name in the company's uh you know your name in the company's uh you know your name in the company's uh you know the materials they sent to shareholders the materials they sent to shareholders the materials they sent to shareholders those rules were written in a way that those rules were written in a way that those rules were written in a way that were very unfavorable and very difficult were very unfavorable and very difficult were very unfavorable and very difficult to get in the door those rules have been to get in the door those rules have been to get in the door those rules have been changed very recently uh where the changed very recently uh where the changed very recently uh where the company now has to include a candidate company now has to include a candidate company now has to include a candidate really all the candidates in the really all the candidates in the really all the candidates in the materials they send to shareholders so materials they send to shareholders so materials they send to shareholders so the shareholders pick the best ones when the shareholders pick the best ones when the shareholders pick the best ones when we applied we applied when we ran proxy we applied we applied when we ran proxy we applied we applied when we ran proxy contests in the past that was not the contests in the past that was not the contests in the past that was not the case and so you have to spend a lot of case and so you have to spend a lot of case and so you have to spend a lot of money mostly mailing fees and all kinds money mostly mailing fees and all kinds money mostly mailing fees and all kinds of other legal and other expenses to to of other legal and other expenses to to of other legal and other expenses to to let everyone know you're running like let everyone know you're running like let everyone know you're running like running a political campaign and then running a political campaign and then running a political campaign and then you got to run around and meet with the you got to run around and meet with the you got to run around and meet with the big shareholders you know fly around the big shareholders you know fly around the big shareholders you know fly around the country explain your case to them and country explain your case to them and country explain your case to them and then there's uh a shareholder meeting then there's uh a shareholder meeting then there's uh a shareholder meeting and if you get a majority of the votes and if you get a majority of the votes and if you get a majority of the votes you get you get you get on uh what's this proxy contest SL on uh what's this proxy contest SL on uh what's this proxy contest SL battle idea what's what's what's battle battle idea what's what's what's battle battle idea what's what's what's battle when they don't want you go okay and a when they don't want you go okay and a when they don't want you go okay and a lot of that has to do with I would say lot of that has to do with I would say lot of that has to do with I would say Pride normal human kind of stuff you Pride normal human kind of stuff you Pride normal human kind of stuff you know a lot of times a board of an know a lot of times a board of an know a lot of times a board of an underperforming company doesn't want to underperforming company doesn't want to underperforming company doesn't want to admit that they've underperformed and admit that they've underperformed and admit that they've underperformed and Boards of directors 20 years ago we Boards of directors 20 years ago we Boards of directors 20 years ago we started persan Square were pretty cushy started persan Square were pretty cushy started persan Square were pretty cushy jobs sit on a board of a company uh you jobs sit on a board of a company uh you jobs sit on a board of a company uh you play golf with the CEO you know at nice play golf with the CEO you know at nice play golf with the CEO you know at nice golf courses you make a few hundred golf courses you make a few hundred golf courses you make a few hundred thousand a year to go to four

thousand a year to go to four thousand a year to go to four meetings uh it was kind of a rubber meetings uh it was kind of a rubber meetings uh it was kind of a rubber stamp world where boards you know at the stamp world where boards you know at the stamp world where boards you know at the end of the day uh they the CEO really end of the day uh they the CEO really end of the day uh they the CEO really ran the ran the ran the show uh once shareholders could actually show uh once shareholders could actually show uh once shareholders could actually dislodge board members and they could dislodge board members and they could dislodge board members and they could lose their seats and that's really the lose their seats and that's really the lose their seats and that's really the the rise of shareholder activism board the rise of shareholder activism board the rise of shareholder activism board started taking their responsibilities started taking their responsibilities started taking their responsibilities much more seriously because directors much more seriously because directors much more seriously because directors are typically you know there many cases are typically you know there many cases are typically you know there many cases they're retired CEOs this is kind of how they're retired CEOs this is kind of how they're retired CEOs this is kind of how they're making a living in the later they're making a living in the later they're making a living in the later part of their career they sit on four part of their career they sit on four part of their career they sit on four boards they collect you a million a boards they collect you a million a boards they collect you a million a million half dollar a year in director's million half dollar a year in director's million half dollar a year in director's fees if they get thrown off the board by fees if they get thrown off the board by fees if they get thrown off the board by the shareholders that's embarrassing the shareholders that's embarrassing the shareholders that's embarrassing obviously uh and it affects their obviously uh and it affects their obviously uh and it affects their ability to get on other boards so you ability to get on other boards so you ability to get on other boards so you know again incentives as I said earlier know again incentives as I said earlier know again incentives as I said earlier drive all human behavior the incentives drive all human behavior the incentives drive all human behavior the incentives directors they want to preserve their directors they want to preserve their directors they want to preserve their board seats so if you have a director board seats so if you have a director board seats so if you have a director now the directors on board serve in now the directors on board serve in now the directors on board serve in various roles the most vulnerable ones various roles the most vulnerable ones various roles the most vulnerable ones are ones who for example chair a are ones who for example chair a are ones who for example chair a compensation committee and if they put compensation committee and if they put compensation committee and if they put in a bad plan or they overpaid in a bad plan or they overpaid in a bad plan or they overpaid management you know they're subject to management you know they're subject to management you know they're subject to attack by shareholders but you know attack by shareholders but you know attack by shareholders but you know these contests are not disimilar to these contests are not disimilar to these contests are not disimilar to political contests where there political contests where there political contests where there mudslinging and other side puts out mudslinging and other side puts out mudslinging and other side puts out false information about you you have to false information about you you have to false information about you you have to respond and they're spending the respond and they're spending the respond and they're spending the shareholders money so they have sort of shareholders money so they have sort of shareholders money so they have sort of unlimited resources and you're spending unlimited resources and you're spending unlimited resources and you're spending your and your investors money you know your and your investors money you know your and your investors money you know when you're a small firm finite when you're a small firm finite when you're a small firm finite resources so they can outspend you they resources so they can outspend you they resources so they can outspend you they can sue you they can try to you know uh can sue you they can try to you know uh can sue you they can try to you know uh Jigger the uh the mechanics and such a Jigger the uh the mechanics and such a Jigger the uh the mechanics and such a way uh that you're going to lose there's way uh that you're going to lose there's way uh that you're going to lose there's some unfortunate stuff that's happened

some unfortunate stuff that's happened some unfortunate stuff that's happened in the past you know manipulative in the past you know manipulative in the past you know manipulative so also some stuff that's public like in so also some stuff that's public like in so also some stuff that's public like in the press and all this kind of stuff of the press and all this kind of stuff of the press and all this kind of stuff of course you know there'll be you know course you know there'll be you know course you know there'll be you know articles about you know you know the articles about you know you know the articles about you know you know the dirty days where they would uh go dirty days where they would uh go dirty days where they would uh go through your trash and you know make through your trash and you know make through your trash and you know make sure that you know you're not sleeping sure that you know you're not sleeping sure that you know you're not sleeping around and you know things like this but around and you know things like this but around and you know things like this but that's okay I I can I'm subject I can that's okay I I can I'm subject I can that's okay I I can I'm subject I can survive extreme scrutiny because I've survive extreme scrutiny because I've survive extreme scrutiny because I've been through this for a long time so been through this for a long time so been through this for a long time so you're saying the fat and happy you're saying the fat and happy you're saying the fat and happy hens um can get very uh wolflike when hens um can get very uh wolflike when hens um can get very uh wolflike when the fox is trying to break in is this the fox is trying to break in is this the fox is trying to break in is this how do we extend this the fox is a how do we extend this the fox is a how do we extend this the fox is a threat to the hens yeah but but you're threat to the hens yeah but but you're threat to the hens yeah but but you're you've just Charis the charismatic Fox you've just Charis the charismatic Fox you've just Charis the charismatic Fox just explained to me why the fox is good just explained to me why the fox is good just explained to me why the fox is good for everybody in the hen house at the for everybody in the hen house at the for everybody in the hen house at the end of the day it's actually very good end of the day it's actually very good end of the day it's actually very good on a board to have someone you know if on a board to have someone you know if on a board to have someone you know if you there are many examples over time you there are many examples over time you there are many examples over time and some handful of high-profile ones and some handful of high-profile ones and some handful of high-profile ones where the board fought tooth and nail to where the board fought tooth and nail to where the board fought tooth and nail to keep the activist off the board and then keep the activist off the board and then keep the activist off the board and then once the activist got on the board they once the activist got on the board they once the activist got on the board they said you know the guy's not so bad after said you know the guy's not so bad after said you know the guy's not so bad after all the shareholders voted them on he's all the shareholders voted them on he's all the shareholders voted them on he's got some decent ideas and let's all work got some decent ideas and let's all work got some decent ideas and let's all work together to have this work out and so together to have this work out and so together to have this work out and so there very few cases where after the there very few cases where after the there very few cases where after the contest when the uh by the way sometimes contest when the uh by the way sometimes contest when the uh by the way sometimes you have to replace the entire board you have to replace the entire board you have to replace the entire board we've done that um but some most cases we've done that um but some most cases we've done that um but some most cases you get a couple of seats on the board you get a couple of seats on the board you get a couple of seats on the board and it's just you know you you want to and it's just you know you you want to and it's just you know you you want to build a board comprised of diverse build a board comprised of diverse build a board comprised of diverse points of view uh and that's how you get points of view uh and that's how you get points of view uh and that's how you get to the truth what was the most dramatic to the truth what was the most dramatic to the truth what was the most dramatic battle for the board

battle for the board battle for the board that you have been a part of uh the that you have been a part of uh the that you have been a part of uh the Canadian Pacific proxy contest so Canadian Pacific proxy contest so Canadian Pacific proxy contest so Canadian Pacific was like considered the Canadian Pacific was like considered the Canadian Pacific was like considered the most iconic company in Canada it most iconic company in Canada it most iconic company in Canada it literally built the country because the literally built the country because the literally built the country because the the rail that got built over the over the rail that got built over the over the rail that got built over the over Canada is what United the various Canada is what United the various Canada is what United the various provinces into a country and uh and then provinces into a country and uh and then provinces into a country and uh and then over time because the railroad business over time because the railroad business over time because the railroad business is pretty good business they built a ton is pretty good business they built a ton is pretty good business they built a ton of hotels they owned a lot of real of hotels they owned a lot of real of hotels they owned a lot of real estate and it became this massive estate and it became this massive estate and it became this massive conglomerate but it was horribly conglomerate but it was horribly conglomerate but it was horribly mismanaged for decades by the time we mismanaged for decades by the time we mismanaged for decades by the time we got involved it was by far the worst run got involved it was by far the worst run got involved it was by far the worst run Railroad in North America they had the Railroad in North America they had the Railroad in North America they had the lowest profit margins they had the lowest profit margins they had the lowest profit margins they had the lowest growth rate um the every quarter lowest growth rate um the every quarter lowest growth rate um the every quarter management would make excuses generally management would make excuses generally management would make excuses generally about the weather as to why they about the weather as to why they about the weather as to why they underperform versus and there there's a underperform versus and there there's a underperform versus and there there's a direct competitor company called direct competitor company called direct competitor company called Canadian national has a rail goes right Canadian national has a rail goes right Canadian national has a rail goes right across the country and Canadian Pacific across the country and Canadian Pacific across the country and Canadian Pacific would constantly be complaining about would constantly be complaining about would constantly be complaining about the the the weather basically you know same country weather basically you know same country weather basically you know same country same regions tracks weren't that far same regions tracks weren't that far same regions tracks weren't that far apart um and uh but it was a really apart um and uh but it was a really apart um and uh but it was a really important company and being on this important company and being on this important company and being on this board was like an honorary thing and board was like an honorary thing and board was like an honorary thing and everyone on the board was an icon of everyone on the board was an icon of everyone on the board was an icon of Canada you know the chairman of the Canada you know the chairman of the Canada you know the chairman of the Royal Bank of Canada you know the head Royal Bank of Canada you know the head Royal Bank of Canada you know the head of the most important grain privately of the most important grain privately of the most important grain privately held Grain Company the you know sort of held Grain Company the you know sort of held Grain Company the you know sort of an important collection of um you know an important collection of um you know an important collection of um you know big-time Canadian Executives here we big-time Canadian Executives here we big-time Canadian Executives here we were you know this is were you know this is were you know this is probably about 13 years ago and uh you probably about 13 years ago and uh you probably about 13 years ago and uh you know still uh maybe 44y old

know still uh maybe 44y old know still uh maybe 44y old uh from New York not a Canadian uh uh from New York not a Canadian uh uh from New York not a Canadian uh basically saying this is the worst run basically saying this is the worst run basically saying this is the worst run Railroad in North America and we bought Railroad in North America and we bought Railroad in North America and we bought 12% of the railroad at a really low 12% of the railroad at a really low 12% of the railroad at a really low price and we we brought with us to our price and we we brought with us to our price and we we brought with us to our first meeting the greatest Railroader first meeting the greatest Railroader first meeting the greatest Railroader ever a guy named Hunter Harrison who had ever a guy named Hunter Harrison who had ever a guy named Hunter Harrison who had turned around Canadian national so we turned around Canadian national so we turned around Canadian national so we like okay we've got a great asset we've like okay we've got a great asset we've like okay we've got a great asset we've got the greatest railroad CEO of all got the greatest railroad CEO of all got the greatest railroad CEO of all time he's come out of retirement to step time he's come out of retirement to step time he's come out of retirement to step in and run the railroad and we brought in and run the railroad and we brought in and run the railroad and we brought him to the first meeting and they him to the first meeting and they him to the first meeting and they wouldn't even meet with him and uh and wouldn't even meet with him and uh and wouldn't even meet with him and uh and they wouldn't certainly W consider they wouldn't certainly W consider they wouldn't certainly W consider hiring him and that led us to a proxy hiring him and that led us to a proxy hiring him and that led us to a proxy contest and this is where the the engine contest and this is where the the engine contest and this is where the the engine starts churning to to figure out how starts churning to to figure out how starts churning to to figure out how this contest can be won so what what this contest can be won so what what this contest can be won so what what what's involved in the key is we had to what's involved in the key is we had to what's involved in the key is we had to one come up with a group of directors one come up with a group of directors one come up with a group of directors who would be willing to step into a who would be willing to step into a who would be willing to step into a battle and we didn't want a bunch of New battle and we didn't want a bunch of New battle and we didn't want a bunch of New York directors or even American York directors or even American York directors or even American directors we wanted Canadians the directors we wanted Canadians the directors we wanted Canadians the problem was this was the most iconic problem was this was the most iconic problem was this was the most iconic company in Canada and we wanted company in Canada and we wanted company in Canada and we wanted high-profile people so we talk to all high-profile people so we talk to all high-profile people so we talk to all the high-profile people in Canada every the high-profile people in Canada every the high-profile people in Canada every one of them would say Bill you're one of them would say Bill you're one of them would say Bill you're entirely right this thing is the worst entirely right this thing is the worst entirely right this thing is the worst run the road it needs to be fixed but run the road it needs to be fixed but run the road it needs to be fixed but you know I see John at the club you know you know I see John at the club you know you know I see John at the club you know I see him at the Toronto Club you know I I see him at the Toronto Club you know I I see him at the Toronto Club you know I can't you know I can't do this but can't you know I can't do this but can't you know I can't do this but you're totally right and uh we had to you're totally right and uh we had to you're totally right and uh we had to and that was the concern because we're and that was the concern because we're and that was the concern because we're you have to file your materials by a you have to file your materials by a you have to file your materials by a certain day you got to put together a certain day you got to put together a certain day you got to put together a slate we needed a big slate because we slate we needed a big slate because we slate we needed a big slate because we knew that we had to replace basically knew that we had to replace basically knew that we had to replace basically all the directors uh and then one I

all the directors uh and then one I all the directors uh and then one I spoke to uh a guy who was one of the spoke to uh a guy who was one of the spoke to uh a guy who was one of the wealthiest guys in Canada who was on the wealthiest guys in Canada who was on the wealthiest guys in Canada who was on the board at one point in time and he said board at one point in time and he said board at one point in time and he said uh uh bill I have an idea for you uh uh bill I have an idea for you uh uh bill I have an idea for you there's this woman Rebecca McDonald why there's this woman Rebecca McDonald why there's this woman Rebecca McDonald why don't you give her a call and I called don't you give her a call and I called don't you give her a call and I called Rebecca and she was the first woman to Rebecca and she was the first woman to Rebecca and she was the first woman to take a company public in Canada as CEO take a company public in Canada as CEO take a company public in Canada as CEO and she was a kind of anti-establishment and she was a kind of anti-establishment and she was a kind of anti-establishment not afraid to take on anything kind of not afraid to take on anything kind of not afraid to take on anything kind of person and I called her we had a great person and I called her we had a great person and I called her we had a great conversation conversation conversation and she she was in the Dominican and she she was in the Dominican and she she was in the Dominican Republic at her house and I flew down to Republic at her house and I flew down to Republic at her house and I flew down to see her and she said yeah I'm all in and see her and she said yeah I'm all in and see her and she said yeah I'm all in and actually once we got her that enabled us actually once we got her that enabled us actually once we got her that enabled us to get others and then we put together to get others and then we put together to get others and then we put together our slate and uh we had some pretty our slate and uh we had some pretty our slate and uh we had some pretty interesting dialogue with the company interesting dialogue with the company interesting dialogue with the company they tried to embarrass us all the time they tried to embarrass us all the time they tried to embarrass us all the time in the Press publicly what what are we in the Press publicly what what are we in the Press publicly what what are we talk press publicly you know at one talk press publicly you know at one talk press publicly you know at one point I wrote a email saying look let's point I wrote a email saying look let's point I wrote a email saying look let's come to peace on this thing um but if we come to peace on this thing um but if we come to peace on this thing um but if we don't you're you're really forcing my don't you're you're really forcing my don't you're you're really forcing my hand and we're going to have to rent the hand and we're going to have to rent the hand and we're going to have to rent the largest Hall in Toronto and invite all largest Hall in Toronto and invite all largest Hall in Toronto and invite all the shareholders and it's going to be the shareholders and it's going to be the shareholders and it's going to be embarrassing for management and I I made embarrassing for management and I I made embarrassing for management and I I made reference to some nuclear winter let's reference to some nuclear winter let's reference to some nuclear winter let's not have it be a nuclear winter and they not have it be a nuclear winter and they not have it be a nuclear winter and they thought they'd embarrass me by releasing thought they'd embarrass me by releasing thought they'd embarrass me by releasing the email but it would only inspired us the email but it would only inspired us the email but it would only inspired us and we rent to the largest Hall in and we rent to the largest Hall in and we rent to the largest Hall in Canada and we put up a presentation Canada and we put up a presentation Canada and we put up a presentation walking through you know here's Canadian walking through you know here's Canadian walking through you know here's Canadian national here's Canadian Pacific here's national here's Canadian Pacific here's national here's Canadian Pacific here's what they said here's what they did and what they said here's what they did and what they said here's what they did and we had Hunter get up who was this we had Hunter get up who was this we had Hunter get up who was this incredibly charismatic guy from incredibly charismatic guy from incredibly charismatic guy from Tennessee uh an amazing you know he's

Tennessee uh an amazing you know he's Tennessee uh an amazing you know he's like a like a like a lion incredibly deep voice unbelievable lion incredibly deep voice unbelievable lion incredibly deep voice unbelievable track record incredibly respected guy track record incredibly respected guy track record incredibly respected guy it's like getting Michael Jordan to come it's like getting Michael Jordan to come it's like getting Michael Jordan to come out of retirement and out of retirement and out of retirement and uh and come and run the company and he uh and come and run the company and he uh and come and run the company and he Hunter was incredible and uh other Paul Hunter was incredible and uh other Paul Hunter was incredible and uh other Paul La other members of my team were you La other members of my team were you La other members of my team were you know super know super know super engaged and the board you know Canadians engaged and the board you know Canadians engaged and the board you know Canadians are known to be nice so one of the are known to be nice so one of the are known to be nice so one of the problems we had is shareholders would problems we had is shareholders would problems we had is shareholders would never tell management or the board that never tell management or the board that never tell management or the board that they were losing it was not until the they were losing it was not until the they were losing it was not until the night before the meeting when the vote night before the meeting when the vote night before the meeting when the vote came in the management realized they came in the management realized they came in the management realized they they lost we got 99% of the vote and they lost we got 99% of the vote and they lost we got 99% of the vote and they they offered us a deal when they they they offered us a deal when they they they offered us a deal when they begged us to take a deal they said look begged us to take a deal they said look begged us to take a deal they said look we'll resign tonight so that we don't we'll resign tonight so that we don't we'll resign tonight so that we don't have to come to the meeting tomorrow have to come to the meeting tomorrow have to come to the meeting tomorrow that's how embarrassed they were but that's how embarrassed they were but that's how embarrassed they were but that that was kind of a interesting one that that was kind of a interesting one that that was kind of a interesting one so for in both this proxy battle and um so for in both this proxy battle and um so for in both this proxy battle and um the company itself this was uh one of the company itself this was uh one of the company itself this was uh one of your more successful Investments it was your more successful Investments it was your more successful Investments it was I mean the stock up about 10 times uh I mean the stock up about 10 times uh I mean the stock up about 10 times uh and it's an industrial company it's a and it's an industrial company it's a and it's an industrial company it's a railroad it's not like a growth like railroad it's not like a growth like railroad it's not like a growth like it's not not Google uh so it's a great it's not not Google uh so it's a great it's not not Google uh so it's a great story and the company's now run by a guy story and the company's now run by a guy story and the company's now run by a guy Nam Keith creel and Keith uh it was Nam Keith creel and Keith uh it was Nam Keith creel and Keith uh it was Hunter's prote and in some many ways Hunter's prote and in some many ways Hunter's prote and in some many ways he's actually better than Hunter uh he's he's actually better than Hunter uh he's he's actually better than Hunter uh he's doing an incredible job and we're uh the doing an incredible job and we're uh the doing an incredible job and we're uh the sad part here is we made it we did very sad part here is we made it we did very sad part here is we made it we did very well we tripled our money over several well we tripled our money over several well we tripled our money over several years and then I went through a very years and then I went through a very years and then I went through a very challenging period because of a couple challenging period because of a couple challenging period because of a couple bad Investments and we had to sell our bad Investments and we had to sell our bad Investments and we had to sell our Canadian Pacific to pay uh to raise Canadian Pacific to pay uh to raise Canadian Pacific to pay uh to raise Capital to uh pay for investors who were

Capital to uh pay for investors who were Capital to uh pay for investors who were who are who are who are leaving uh but we had another leaving uh but we had another leaving uh but we had another opportunity to buy back more last in the opportunity to buy back more last in the opportunity to buy back more last in the last couple years and so we're we're now last couple years and so we're we're now last couple years and so we're we're now again a major owner of the company but again a major owner of the company but again a major owner of the company but had we held on to original had we held on to original had we held on to original stock it would have been uh epic if you stock it would have been uh epic if you stock it would have been uh epic if you will so on this one you were right yes will so on this one you were right yes will so on this one you were right yes and uh I I I read an article about you and uh I I I read an article about you and uh I I I read an article about you and there's many articles about you I and there's many articles about you I and there's many articles about you I read an article that said bill is often read an article that said bill is often read an article that said bill is often right but you approach it with a right but you approach it with a right but you approach it with a scorched Earth uh approach that can scorched Earth uh approach that can scorched Earth uh approach that can often do more sort of can do damage I often do more sort of can do damage I often do more sort of can do damage I haven't read the off and right article haven't read the off and right article haven't read the off and right article but the good news is we are off and but the good news is we are off and but the good news is we are off and right and I say we because we're a team right and I say we because we're a team right and I say we because we're a team uh small team but a but but a uh small team but a but but a uh small team but a but but a fortunately very successful one you know fortunately very successful one you know fortunately very successful one you know so our batting average as investors is so our batting average as investors is so our batting average as investors is extremely high and the good news is our extremely high and the good news is our extremely high and the good news is our record is totally public you can see record is totally public you can see record is totally public you can see everything we've ever done but the Press everything we've ever done but the Press everything we've ever done but the Press doesn't really generally write about the doesn't really generally write about the doesn't really generally write about the success stories uh they write about the success stories uh they write about the success stories uh they write about the failures and so we've had some epic failures and so we've had some epic failures and so we've had some epic failures you know big losses U good news failures you know big losses U good news failures you know big losses U good news is they've been a a tiny minority of the is they've been a a tiny minority of the is they've been a a tiny minority of the cases now no one likes to lose money cases now no one likes to lose money cases now no one likes to lose money it's even worse to lose other people's it's even worse to lose other people's it's even worse to lose other people's money uh and I've done that occasionally money uh and I've done that occasionally money uh and I've done that occasionally uh the good news is if you stuck with us uh the good news is if you stuck with us uh the good news is if you stuck with us you've done very well you know over a you've done very well you know over a you've done very well you know over a long time on a small tangent since we long time on a small tangent since we long time on a small tangent since we were talking about were talking about were talking about boards did you get a chance to see what boards did you get a chance to see what boards did you get a chance to see what happened with the open AI board cuz I'm happened with the open AI board cuz I'm happened with the open AI board cuz I'm talking to Sam wman Soon talking to Sam wman Soon talking to Sam wman Soon um is there any insight you have just

um is there any insight you have just um is there any insight you have just maybe lessons you draw from this kind of maybe lessons you draw from this kind of maybe lessons you draw from this kind of sure these kinds of events especially sure these kinds of events especially sure these kinds of events especially with an AI technology company such with an AI technology company such with an AI technology company such dramatic things happening yeah that was dramatic things happening yeah that was dramatic things happening yeah that was an incredible Story look governance an incredible Story look governance an incredible Story look governance really matters and the governance really matters and the governance really matters and the governance structure of opai I think leaves structure of opai I think leaves structure of opai I think leaves something to be desired you know I think something to be desired you know I think something to be desired you know I think Sam's Point was this and maybe musk Elon Sam's Point was this and maybe musk Elon Sam's Point was this and maybe musk Elon Musk Point originally set up as a Musk Point originally set up as a Musk Point originally set up as a nonprofit uh and uh reminds me actually nonprofit uh and uh reminds me actually nonprofit uh and uh reminds me actually I invested in a nonprofit run by a I invested in a nonprofit run by a I invested in a nonprofit run by a former Facebook founder where he was former Facebook founder where he was former Facebook founder where he was going to create a Facebook like entity going to create a Facebook like entity going to create a Facebook like entity for nonprofits to promote you know for nonprofits to promote you know for nonprofits to promote you know goodness in the world and the problem goodness in the world and the problem goodness in the world and the problem was he couldn't hire the talent he was he couldn't hire the talent he was he couldn't hire the talent he wanted because he couldn't Grant stock wanted because he couldn't Grant stock wanted because he couldn't Grant stock options he couldn't pay Market salaries options he couldn't pay Market salaries options he couldn't pay Market salaries um and ultimately we ended up he ended um and ultimately we ended up he ended um and ultimately we ended up he ended up selling the business to a for-profit up selling the business to a for-profit up selling the business to a for-profit so it taught me for-profit solutions to so it taught me for-profit solutions to so it taught me for-profit solutions to problems are much better than nonprofits problems are much better than nonprofits problems are much better than nonprofits and here you had kind of a blend right and here you had kind of a blend right and here you had kind of a blend right it was set up as a nonprofit but I think it was set up as a nonprofit but I think it was set up as a nonprofit but I think they found the same thing they couldn't they found the same thing they couldn't they found the same thing they couldn't hire the talent they wanted without hire the talent they wanted without hire the talent they wanted without having a for-profit subsidiary um but having a for-profit subsidiary um but having a for-profit subsidiary um but the nonprofit entity as I understand it the nonprofit entity as I understand it the nonprofit entity as I understand it owns or a big chunk of open Ai and the owns or a big chunk of open Ai and the owns or a big chunk of open Ai and the investors own sort of a capped interest investors own sort of a capped interest investors own sort of a capped interest where their upside is capped uh and they where their upside is capped uh and they where their upside is capped uh and they don't have representation on the don't have representation on the don't have representation on the board and I think that's a you know was board and I think that's a you know was board and I think that's a you know was a setup for a problem and that's clearly a setup for a problem and that's clearly a setup for a problem and that's clearly what happened here and there's I guess what happened here and there's I guess what happened here and there's I guess some kind of complexity in the governor some kind of complexity in the governor some kind of complexity in the governor I mean because of this nonprofit and cap

I mean because of this nonprofit and cap I mean because of this nonprofit and cap profit thing it seems like there's a profit thing it seems like there's a profit thing it seems like there's a bunch of complexity and um non-standard bunch of complexity and um non-standard bunch of complexity and um non-standard aspects to it aspects to it aspects to it that perhaps also contributed to the that perhaps also contributed to the that perhaps also contributed to the problem yeah uh governance really problem yeah uh governance really problem yeah uh governance really matters Boards of directors really matters Boards of directors really matters Boards of directors really matter um giving the shareholders the matter um giving the shareholders the matter um giving the shareholders the right to uh have input at least once a right to uh have input at least once a right to uh have input at least once a year on the structure of the governance year on the structure of the governance year on the structure of the governance of a compan is really important of a compan is really important of a compan is really important and private you know Venture back boards and private you know Venture back boards and private you know Venture back boards are also not ideal you know I'm an are also not ideal you know I'm an are also not ideal you know I'm an active investor and active investor and active investor and venturers and uh there are some more venturers and uh there are some more venturers and uh there are some more complicated issues that emerge in complicated issues that emerge in complicated issues that emerge in private sort of venture stage companies private sort of venture stage companies private sort of venture stage companies um where board members have somewhat uh um where board members have somewhat uh um where board members have somewhat uh Divergent incentives from you know the Divergent incentives from you know the Divergent incentives from you know the long-term owners of a business and what long-term owners of a business and what long-term owners of a business and what you see a lot in Venture boards is you you see a lot in Venture boards is you you see a lot in Venture boards is you know they're presided over generally by know they're presided over generally by know they're presided over generally by uh you know Venture Capital investors uh you know Venture Capital investors uh you know Venture Capital investors who are big investors in the company who are big investors in the company who are big investors in the company and often times it's more important to and often times it's more important to and often times it's more important to them to give the uh to have the public them to give the uh to have the public them to give the uh to have the public perception that they're good directors perception that they're good directors perception that they're good directors so they get the next best deal right if so they get the next best deal right if so they get the next best deal right if they get a you know if they have a they get a you know if they have a they get a you know if they have a reputation for kind of taking on reputation for kind of taking on reputation for kind of taking on management too aggressively word will management too aggressively word will management too aggressively word will get out in the small community of get out in the small community of get out in the small community of Founders and they'll miss the next Founders and they'll miss the next Founders and they'll miss the next Google and so they their interests are Google and so they their interests are Google and so they their interests are not just in that particular company not just in that particular company not just in that particular company that's also you know one of the problems that's also you know one of the problems that's also you know one of the problems again it all comes back to incentives again it all comes back to incentives again it all comes back to incentives can you explain to me the difference you can you explain to me the difference you can you explain to me the difference you know Venture back like VCS and know Venture back like VCS and know Venture back like VCS and shareholders so this means before the

shareholders so this means before the shareholders so this means before the company goes public yeah so private company goes public yeah so private company goes public yeah so private Venture back companies the boards tend Venture back companies the boards tend Venture back companies the boards tend to be very small uh could be a handful to be very small uh could be a handful to be very small uh could be a handful of the Venture investors and management of the Venture investors and management of the Venture investors and management they're often very rarely uh independent they're often very rarely uh independent they're often very rarely uh independent directors it's just not an ideal directors it's just not an ideal directors it's just not an ideal structure oh I see you want independent structure oh I see you want independent structure oh I see you want independent it's beneficial to have people who have it's beneficial to have people who have it's beneficial to have people who have an economic interest in the business and an economic interest in the business and an economic interest in the business and they care only about the success of that they care only about the success of that they care only about the success of that company uh as as opposed to someone who company uh as as opposed to someone who company uh as as opposed to someone who you know if you think about the Venture you know if you think about the Venture you know if you think about the Venture business getting into the best deals is business getting into the best deals is business getting into the best deals is more important than any one deal and you more important than any one deal and you more important than any one deal and you see cases where you know the boards go see cases where you know the boards go see cases where you know the boards go along with in some cases bad behavior on along with in some cases bad behavior on along with in some cases bad behavior on the part of management because they want the part of management because they want the part of management because they want a reputation for being kind of a a a reputation for being kind of a a a reputation for being kind of a a Founder friendly director you know Founder friendly director you know Founder friendly director you know that's that's kind of problematic you that's that's kind of problematic you that's that's kind of problematic you don't have the same issue in public don't have the same issue in public don't have the same issue in public company boards so we talked about some company boards so we talked about some company boards so we talked about some of some of the big wins and your track of some of the big wins and your track of some of the big wins and your track record but you said there was some big record but you said there was some big record but you said there was some big losses so what what's uh what's the losses so what what's uh what's the losses so what what's uh what's the biggest loss of your career biggest loss biggest loss of your career biggest loss biggest loss of your career biggest loss of my career is a company called valali of my career is a company called valali of my career is a company called valali and pharmaceuticals we made an and pharmaceuticals we made an and pharmaceuticals we made an investment in business that didn't meet investment in business that didn't meet investment in business that didn't meet our core principles uh problem of the our core principles uh problem of the our core principles uh problem of the pharmaceutical industry and there are pharmaceutical industry and there are pharmaceutical industry and there are many problems as I've learned is it's a many problems as I've learned is it's a many problems as I've learned is it's a very volatile business right it's based very volatile business right it's based very volatile business right it's based on drug Discovery uh it's based on you on drug Discovery uh it's based on you on drug Discovery uh it's based on you know predicting uh kind of the future know predicting uh kind of the future know predicting uh kind of the future revenues of a drug before goes off revenues of a drug before goes off revenues of a drug before goes off patent um you know lot lots of patent um you know lot lots of patent um you know lot lots of complexities and we thought we had complexities and we thought we had complexities and we thought we had founded a a pharmaceutical company we founded a a pharmaceutical company we founded a a pharmaceutical company we could own because of a very unusual could own because of a very unusual could own because of a very unusual founder in the way he approached this founder in the way he approached this founder in the way he approached this business um we it was a company where

business um we it was a company where business um we it was a company where another activist was on the board of another activist was on the board of another activist was on the board of directors of the company and kind of directors of the company and kind of directors of the company and kind of governing and overseeing the day-to-day governing and overseeing the day-to-day governing and overseeing the day-to-day decisions and we ended up making a decisions and we ended up making a decisions and we ended up making a passive investment in the company and up passive investment in the company and up passive investment in the company and up until this point in time we really until this point in time we really until this point in time we really didn't make passive didn't make passive didn't make passive Investments and the company made a Investments and the company made a Investments and the company made a series of decisions that were you know series of decisions that were you know series of decisions that were you know disastrous and then we stepped in to try disastrous and then we stepped in to try disastrous and then we stepped in to try to solve the problem it was the first to solve the problem it was the first to solve the problem it was the first time I ever joined a board and the mess time I ever joined a board and the mess time I ever joined a board and the mess was much larger than I realized from the was much larger than I realized from the was much larger than I realized from the outside and then I was kind of stuck and outside and then I was kind of stuck and outside and then I was kind of stuck and it was a very much a confidence it was a very much a confidence it was a very much a confidence sensitive strategy CU they they built sensitive strategy CU they they built sensitive strategy CU they they built their business by acquiring their business by acquiring their business by acquiring pharmaceutical assets and they often pharmaceutical assets and they often pharmaceutical assets and they often issued stock when they acquired uh issued stock when they acquired uh issued stock when they acquired uh targets and so once the market lost targets and so once the market lost targets and so once the market lost confidence in management the stock price confidence in management the stock price confidence in management the stock price got crushed and impaired their ability got crushed and impaired their ability got crushed and impaired their ability to continue to acquire lowcost you know to continue to acquire lowcost you know to continue to acquire lowcost you know drugs and uh we lost $4 billion $4 drugs and uh we lost $4 billion $4 drugs and uh we lost $4 billion $4 billion yeah how's that for a big loss billion yeah how's that for a big loss billion yeah how's that for a big loss that's it's up that's it's up that's it's up there I'm sweating this whole there I'm sweating this whole there I'm sweating this whole conversation both the wins and the conversation both the wins and the conversation both the wins and the losses and the stakes involved and by losses and the stakes involved and by losses and the stakes involved and by the way that that loss catalyzed other the way that that loss catalyzed other the way that that loss catalyzed other what I call marketto Market losses so what I call marketto Market losses so what I call marketto Market losses so very high-profile huge number disastrous very high-profile huge number disastrous very high-profile huge number disastrous press uh then people said okay Bill's press uh then people said okay Bill's press uh then people said okay Bill's going to go out of business so we're going to go out of business so we're going to go out of business so we're going to bet against everything he's going to bet against everything he's going to bet against everything he's doing and we know us entire portfolio doing and we know us entire portfolio doing and we know us entire portfolio because we only own 10 things and we because we only own 10 things and we because we only own 10 things and we were short a company called urbal life were short a company called urbal life were short a company called urbal life uh uh uh very famously we've only really shorted very famously we've only really shorted very famously we've only really shorted two companies the first one there's a two companies the first one there's a two companies the first one there's a book the second one there's a movie okay book the second one there's a movie okay book the second one there's a movie okay we no longer short companies but uh so

we no longer short companies but uh so we no longer short companies but uh so people pushed up the price of verbal people pushed up the price of verbal people pushed up the price of verbal life um which is when you're a short life um which is when you're a short life um which is when you're a short seller that's catastrophic I can explain seller that's catastrophic I can explain seller that's catastrophic I can explain that and then they also shorted the that and then they also shorted the that and then they also shorted the other stocks that we owned and so that other stocks that we owned and so that other stocks that we owned and so that Valiant loss led to an overall more than Valiant loss led to an overall more than Valiant loss led to an overall more than 30% loss in the value of our portfolio 30% loss in the value of our portfolio 30% loss in the value of our portfolio the Valiant loss was real and we was the Valiant loss was real and we was the Valiant loss was real and we was crystallized we end up selling the crystallized we end up selling the crystallized we end up selling the position taking that loss most of the position taking that loss most of the position taking that loss most of the other losses were what I would call other losses were what I would call other losses were what I would call marketto Market losses that were marketto Market losses that were marketto Market losses that were temporary but many people go out of temporary but many people go out of temporary but many people go out of business because as I mentioned before business because as I mentioned before business because as I mentioned before large move in a price if investors are large move in a price if investors are large move in a price if investors are redeeming or you have leverage you know redeeming or you have leverage you know redeeming or you have leverage you know it can put you out of business and if it can put you out of business and if it can put you out of business and if and people assumed if we got put out of and people assumed if we got put out of and people assumed if we got put out of business we'd have to sell everything or business we'd have to sell everything or business we'd have to sell everything or cover our short position and that would cover our short position and that would cover our short position and that would make the losses even worse so Wall make the losses even worse so Wall make the losses even worse so Wall Street is kind of Ruthless so they can Street is kind of Ruthless so they can Street is kind of Ruthless so they can make money off that whole thing make money off that whole thing make money off that whole thing absolutely so they use the opportunity absolutely so they use the opportunity absolutely so they use the opportunity of valant to try to destroy you yes of valant to try to destroy you yes of valant to try to destroy you yes reputation financially and then reputation financially and then reputation financially and then capitalize and make money off of that capitalize and make money off of that capitalize and make money off of that yes well that's a terrifying spot to be yes well that's a terrifying spot to be yes well that's a terrifying spot to be in what was the like going through that in what was the like going through that in what was the like going through that was pretty Grim uh it was uh it's was pretty Grim uh it was uh it's was pretty Grim uh it was uh it's actually much worse than that because I actually much worse than that because I actually much worse than that because I had a lot of stuff going on personally had a lot of stuff going on personally had a lot of stuff going on personally as well so and these things tend to be as well so and these things tend to be as well so and these things tend to be correlated the Valiant mistake came at a correlated the Valiant mistake came at a correlated the Valiant mistake came at a time where I was contemplating my time where I was contemplating my time where I was contemplating my marriage uh and uh I was also we you marriage uh and uh I was also we you marriage uh and uh I was also we you know the problem with the hedge fund know the problem with the hedge fund know the problem with the hedge fund business business is when you get to a business business is when you get to a business business is when you get to a certain scale the CEO becomes like the certain scale the CEO becomes like the certain scale the CEO becomes like the chief marketing officer of the business chief marketing officer of the business chief marketing officer of the business and I'm really an investor as opposed to and I'm really an investor as opposed to and I'm really an investor as opposed to a marketing guy um but when you have a marketing guy um but when you have a marketing guy um but when you have investors who give you a few hundred

investors who give you a few hundred investors who give you a few hundred million dollars they want to see you you million dollars they want to see you you million dollars they want to see you you know once a year Bill I'd love to see know once a year Bill I'd love to see know once a year Bill I'd love to see you for an hour but if you got a couple you for an hour but if you got a couple you for an hour but if you got a couple hundred of those you find yourself on a hundred of those you find yourself on a hundred of those you find yourself on a plane to the Middle East to Asia uh plane to the Middle East to Asia uh plane to the Middle East to Asia uh flying around the country this was flying around the country this was flying around the country this was preum uh and uh that takes you away from preum uh and uh that takes you away from preum uh and uh that takes you away from the investment process you have to the investment process you have to the investment process you have to delegate more that was a contributor to delegate more that was a contributor to delegate more that was a contributor to the Valiant mistake so now we lose a ton the Valiant mistake so now we lose a ton the Valiant mistake so now we lose a ton of money on Valiant my ex-wife and I of money on Valiant my ex-wife and I of money on Valiant my ex-wife and I were you know talking about separating were you know talking about separating were you know talking about separating getting divorced I put that on hold I getting divorced I put that on hold I getting divorced I put that on hold I didn't want to make a decision in the didn't want to make a decision in the didn't want to make a decision in the middle of this middle of this middle of this crisis and things just kick getting crisis and things just kick getting crisis and things just kick getting worse we were also sued when you lose a worse we were also sued when you lose a worse we were also sued when you lose a lot of money we didn't get sued by our lot of money we didn't get sued by our lot of money we didn't get sued by our investors but we got sued by a investors but we got sued by a investors but we got sued by a shareholder because when the stock price shareholder because when the stock price shareholder because when the stock price goes down shareholders Sue we' done goes down shareholders Sue we' done goes down shareholders Sue we' done nothing wrong other than make a big nothing wrong other than make a big nothing wrong other than make a big mistake but you know so you have mistake but you know so you have mistake but you know so you have litigation uh your investors are taking litigation uh your investors are taking litigation uh your investors are taking their money out um I'm in the middle of their money out um I'm in the middle of their money out um I'm in the middle of a divorce uh the divorce starts to a divorce uh the divorce starts to a divorce uh the divorce starts to proceed U my my ex-wife's lawyer proceed U my my ex-wife's lawyer proceed U my my ex-wife's lawyer expectations of what my net worth was expectations of what my net worth was expectations of what my net worth was was about three times what it actually was about three times what it actually was about three times what it actually was and it was going lower right in the was and it was going lower right in the was and it was going lower right in the middle of this and I I remember the middle of this and I I remember the middle of this and I I remember the lawyer saying um look bill you know you lawyer saying um look bill you know you lawyer saying um look bill you know you know we've estimated your net worth at X know we've estimated your net worth at X know we've estimated your net worth at X but don't worry we only want a third but but don't worry we only want a third but but don't worry we only want a third but X was 3x so a third was 100% X was 3x so a third was 100% X was 3x so a third was 100% and um and then we had I had litigation and um and then we had I had litigation and um and then we had I had litigation uh and actually never before publicly uh and actually never before publicly uh and actually never before publicly disclosed and I'll share it with you now

disclosed and I'll share it with you now disclosed and I'll share it with you now um we had a a public company that owned um we had a a public company that owned um we had a a public company that owned U about a third of our portfolio that U about a third of our portfolio that U about a third of our portfolio that was called our version of Burkshire was called our version of Burkshire was called our version of Burkshire hathway I tried to you know learn from hathway I tried to you know learn from hathway I tried to you know learn from Mr Buffett over time and it was so to Mr Buffett over time and it was so to Mr Buffett over time and it was so to speak permanent Capital the beauty of speak permanent Capital the beauty of speak permanent Capital the beauty of problem with hedge funds people can take problem with hedge funds people can take problem with hedge funds people can take their money out every quarter um what their money out every quarter um what their money out every quarter um what Buffett has is is a company where people Buffett has is is a company where people Buffett has is is a company where people want to take their money out they sell want to take their money out they sell want to take their money out they sell the stock but the money stays so we set the stock but the money stays so we set the stock but the money stays so we set up a similar structure in October of up a similar structure in October of up a similar structure in October of 2014 and then a year later Valiant 2014 and then a year later Valiant 2014 and then a year later Valiant happens and then a year later we're in happens and then a year later we're in happens and then a year later we're in the middle of the mess and we're still the middle of the mess and we're still the middle of the mess and we're still in the mess you know like by kind of mid in the mess you know like by kind of mid in the mess you know like by kind of mid uh 2017 we've got a litigation uh 2017 we've got a litigation uh 2017 we've got a litigation underway uh and a another activist underway uh and a another activist underway uh and a another activist investor a firm called Ed Associates investor a firm called Ed Associates investor a firm called Ed Associates which is uh run by a guy named Paul which is uh run by a guy named Paul which is uh run by a guy named Paul singer took a big position in our public singer took a big position in our public singer took a big position in our public company that was the bulk of our capital company that was the bulk of our capital company that was the bulk of our capital and they shorted all the stocks that we and they shorted all the stocks that we and they shorted all the stocks that we owned and they went long the short owned and they went long the short owned and they went long the short probably went long the short that we probably went long the short that we probably went long the short that we were short and they were making a bet were short and they were making a bet were short and they were making a bet that we'd be forced to liquidate and that we'd be forced to liquidate and that we'd be forced to liquidate and then they would make money on you know then they would make money on you know then they would make money on you know our public company was trading at a our public company was trading at a our public company was trading at a discount to what all the Securities were discount to what all the Securities were discount to what all the Securities were worth so they bought the they bought the worth so they bought the they bought the worth so they bought the they bought the public company they shorted the public company they shorted the public company they shorted the Securities and then they you know came Securities and then they you know came Securities and then they you know came to see us and to try to you know be to see us and to try to you know be to see us and to try to you know be activists and force us to activists and force us to activists and force us to liquidate and uh that sort of wow so I liquidate and uh that sort of wow so I liquidate and uh that sort of wow so I thought this was going to be wow I I thought this was going to be wow I I thought this was going to be wow I I envisioned an end where the divorce envisioned an end where the divorce envisioned an end where the divorce takes all of my resources the permanent takes all of my resources the permanent takes all of my resources the permanent Capital vehicle ends up getting

Capital vehicle ends up getting Capital vehicle ends up getting liquidated and another activist in my liquidated and another activist in my liquidated and another activist in my industry puts me out of business and I industry puts me out of business and I industry puts me out of business and I had met ner oxman right around this time had met ner oxman right around this time had met ner oxman right around this time and I'd Fallen completely in love with and I'd Fallen completely in love with and I'd Fallen completely in love with her and I was envisioning a world where her and I was envisioning a world where her and I was envisioning a world where I was bankrupt a judge found me guilty I was bankrupt a judge found me guilty I was bankrupt a judge found me guilty of you know whatever you know he sends of you know whatever you know he sends of you know whatever you know he sends me off to jail or not that judge because me off to jail or not that judge because me off to jail or not that judge because he was a civil judge but another judge he was a civil judge but another judge he was a civil judge but another judge sues the SEC Department of Justice and I sues the SEC Department of Justice and I sues the SEC Department of Justice and I find myself in this incredible mess uh find myself in this incredible mess uh find myself in this incredible mess uh and I decided I didn't want things to and I decided I didn't want things to and I decided I didn't want things to end that way so I uh I did something I'd end that way so I uh I did something I'd end that way so I uh I did something I'd never done before I talked all before never done before I talked all before never done before I talked all before about you don't borrow money I borrowed about you don't borrow money I borrowed about you don't borrow money I borrowed money and I borrow $300 million uh from money and I borrow $300 million uh from money and I borrow $300 million uh from JP Morgan in the middle of this mess and JP Morgan in the middle of this mess and JP Morgan in the middle of this mess and uh I give JP Morgan enormous Credit in uh I give JP Morgan enormous Credit in uh I give JP Morgan enormous Credit in seeing through it um and also uh you seeing through it um and also uh you seeing through it um and also uh you know I had been a a good client over a know I had been a a good client over a know I had been a a good client over a long period of time and it's like a you long period of time and it's like a you long period of time and it's like a you know it's a handshake bank and they bet know it's a handshake bank and they bet know it's a handshake bank and they bet that I would succeed and I took that that I would succeed and I took that that I would succeed and I took that money to buy enough stock in my public money to buy enough stock in my public money to buy enough stock in my public company I could prevent an activist from company I could prevent an activist from company I could prevent an activist from taking it over and effectively buy taking it over and effectively buy taking it over and effectively buy control of our little public control of our little public control of our little public company and I got that done and that I company and I got that done and that I company and I got that done and that I knew was the moment the turning point knew was the moment the turning point knew was the moment the turning point and uh I resolved my divorce and and uh I resolved my divorce and and uh I resolved my divorce and divorces get easier to resolve when divorces get easier to resolve when divorces get easier to resolve when things are going badly I was able to things are going badly I was able to things are going badly I was able to resolve that we settled the litigation resolve that we settled the litigation resolve that we settled the litigation like was buying blocks of our stock in like was buying blocks of our stock in like was buying blocks of our stock in the market I remember a day I bought a the market I remember a day I bought a the market I remember a day I bought a big block of stock in the market I get a big block of stock in the market I get a big block of stock in the market I get a call from Gordon singer who is Paul call from Gordon singer who is Paul call from Gordon singer who is Paul Singer's son who runs their uh London Singer's son who runs their uh London Singer's son who runs their uh London part of their business he's like Bill

part of their business he's like Bill part of their business he's like Bill was that you buying that block I said was that you buying that block I said was that you buying that block I said yes and he's like yes and he's like yes and he's like fuck so he knew uh he knew that once I fuck so he knew uh he knew that once I fuck so he knew uh he knew that once I got that they were not going to be able got that they were not going to be able got that they were not going to be able to succeed and they went away and that to succeed and they went away and that to succeed and they went away and that that was the that was the that was the bottom uh and then I I uh we've had an bottom uh and then I I uh we've had an bottom uh and then I I uh we've had an incredible run since then and then you incredible run since then and then you incredible run since then and then you were able to protect your reputation were able to protect your reputation were able to protect your reputation from the Valiant uh failure still I mean from the Valiant uh failure still I mean from the Valiant uh failure still I mean you know this is a business where you're you know this is a business where you're you know this is a business where you're going to make some mistakes it was a big going to make some mistakes it was a big going to make some mistakes it was a big one it was very reputationally damaging one it was very reputationally damaging one it was very reputationally damaging uh the Press was a total uh the Press was a total uh the Press was a total disaster uh but I'm not a quitter and disaster uh but I'm not a quitter and disaster uh but I'm not a quitter and actually the the key moments for us uh actually the the key moments for us uh actually the the key moments for us uh we had never taken our core investment we had never taken our core investment we had never taken our core investment principles and actually really written principles and actually really written principles and actually really written them down something we talked about at them down something we talked about at them down something we talked about at meetings uh invest you know kind of our meetings uh invest you know kind of our meetings uh invest you know kind of our investment team meetings had a member of investment team meetings had a member of investment team meetings had a member of the team I said look go find a big piece the team I said look go find a big piece the team I said look go find a big piece of granite and a chisel and let's take of granite and a chisel and let's take of granite and a chisel and let's take those core principles I want them like those core principles I want them like those core principles I want them like Moses's Ten Commandments okay we're Moses's Ten Commandments okay we're Moses's Ten Commandments okay we're going to Chisel them and then we're going to Chisel them and then we're going to Chisel them and then we're going to put it up on the wall and once going to put it up on the wall and once going to put it up on the wall and once we produce those we put one on we produce those we put one on we produce those we put one on everyone's desk I said look if we ever everyone's desk I said look if we ever everyone's desk I said look if we ever again Veer from the core principles you again Veer from the core principles you again Veer from the core principles you know hit me they with a baseball bat know hit me they with a baseball bat know hit me they with a baseball bat yeah and that was the bottom and then yeah and that was the bottom and then yeah and that was the bottom and then ever since then we've done we've had the ever since then we've done we've had the ever since then we've done we've had the best six years in the history of the best six years in the history of the best six years in the history of the firm so refocus on the fundamentals story love helps I I fundamentals story love helps I I literally met ner at the absolute bottom literally met ner at the absolute bottom literally met ner at the absolute bottom our first date was September 7th of 2017 our first date was September 7th of 2017 our first date was September 7th of 2017 that was very close to the bottom that was very close to the bottom that was very close to the bottom actually there's one other element to actually there's one other element to actually there's one other element to the story so this went on for a few the story so this went on for a few the story so this went on for a few months after I met her the other element months after I met her the other element months after I met her the other element is that uh one day I get a call from ner

is that uh one day I get a call from ner is that uh one day I get a call from ner she's like Bill guess what I'm like what she's like Bill guess what I'm like what she's like Bill guess what I'm like what Brad Pit is coming to the media lab he Brad Pit is coming to the media lab he Brad Pit is coming to the media lab he wants to see my work I'm like that's wants to see my work I'm like that's wants to see my work I'm like that's beautiful sweetheart I didn't know Brad beautiful sweetheart I didn't know Brad beautiful sweetheart I didn't know Brad Pit was interested in in your Pit was interested in in your Pit was interested in in your work as a man that's a difficult phone work as a man that's a difficult phone work as a man that's a difficult phone call to take and apparently uh he's call to take and apparently uh he's call to take and apparently uh he's really in architecture okay um now n and really in architecture okay um now n and really in architecture okay um now n and I were like you know we would WhatsApp I were like you know we would WhatsApp I were like you know we would WhatsApp all day every day we talk throughout the all day every day we talk throughout the all day every day we talk throughout the day uh Brad Pit shows up at the media day uh Brad Pit shows up at the media day uh Brad Pit shows up at the media lap at 10 o'clock I you know talk to her lap at 10 o'clock I you know talk to her lap at 10 o'clock I you know talk to her in the morning I kind of text her to see in the morning I kind of text her to see in the morning I kind of text her to see how things are going don't hear back and how things are going don't hear back and how things are going don't hear back and on WhatsApp you can see like whether the on WhatsApp you can see like whether the on WhatsApp you can see like whether the other person's read it or not okay yeah other person's read it or not okay yeah other person's read it or not okay yeah no response Yeah couple hours later send no response Yeah couple hours later send no response Yeah couple hours later send another text no response six o'clock no another text no response six o'clock no another text no response six o'clock no response 8 o00 no response 10 o'clock no response 8 o00 no response 10 o'clock no response 8 o00 no response 10 o'clock no response response response and uh you know yeah she finally calls and uh you know yeah she finally calls and uh you know yeah she finally calls me at 10:30 and tells me how great is so me at 10:30 and tells me how great is so me at 10:30 and tells me how great is so I had this scenario okay I'm GNA a judge I had this scenario okay I'm GNA a judge I had this scenario okay I'm GNA a judge is g to find me uh we're going to lose is g to find me uh we're going to lose is g to find me uh we're going to lose to the to the to the judge uh all my assets will disappear judge uh all my assets will disappear judge uh all my assets will disappear yeah and then Brad Pit's going to take yeah and then Brad Pit's going to take yeah and then Brad Pit's going to take my girlfriend yeah Brad Pit's your my girlfriend yeah Brad Pit's your my girlfriend yeah Brad Pit's your competition this is great so it was like competition this is great so it was like competition this is great so it was like a moment yeah that that was sort of the a moment yeah that that was sort of the a moment yeah that that was sort of the bottom and then sort of you know the bottom and then sort of you know the bottom and then sort of you know the motivational thing I didn't want to lose motivational thing I didn't want to lose motivational thing I didn't want to lose to an activist didn't want to lose my to an activist didn't want to lose my to an activist didn't want to lose my girl to some other guy so girl to some other guy so girl to some other guy so Brad Pit and you emerg from all that the Brad Pit and you emerg from all that the Brad Pit and you emerg from all that the winner on all fronts I'm a very winner on all fronts I'm a very winner on all fronts I'm a very fortunate guy very fortunate and lucky fortunate guy very fortunate and lucky fortunate guy very fortunate and lucky you talked about some of the technical you talked about some of the technical you talked about some of the technical aspects of that but psychologically just aspects of that but psychologically just aspects of that but psychologically just is there

is there is there uh like what are you doing at night by uh like what are you doing at night by uh like what are you doing at night by yourself that was a hard time hard time yourself that was a hard time hard time yourself that was a hard time hard time because I was separated from my wife and because I was separated from my wife and because I was separated from my wife and my my my kids uh I was living in you know not the kids uh I was living in you know not the kids uh I was living in you know not the greatest apartment uh you know I'm you greatest apartment uh you know I'm you greatest apartment uh you know I'm you know had a beautiful home and so I had know had a beautiful home and so I had know had a beautiful home and so I had to go find like a bachelor place and I to go find like a bachelor place and I to go find like a bachelor place and I was I didn't want to be away from my was I didn't want to be away from my was I didn't want to be away from my kids I I I moved like 10 blocks away and kids I I I moved like 10 blocks away and kids I I I moved like 10 blocks away and I wasn't seeing them and they didn't I wasn't seeing them and they didn't I wasn't seeing them and they didn't like it so I ended up buying an like it so I ended up buying an like it so I ended up buying an apartment I didn't like uh in the same apartment I didn't like uh in the same apartment I didn't like uh in the same building as my kids like with a building as my kids like with a building as my kids like with a different different entrance so I could different different entrance so I could different different entrance so I could be near them but I was home alone I got be near them but I was home alone I got be near them but I was home alone I got a dog that was a uh Babar we call him a dog that was a uh Babar we call him a dog that was a uh Babar we call him Babar the not the elephant uh he's a Babar the not the elephant uh he's a Babar the not the elephant uh he's a black labber dooodle ni nice uh he was black labber dooodle ni nice uh he was black labber dooodle ni nice uh he was supposed to be a mini but he's not so as supposed to be a mini but he's not so as supposed to be a mini but he's not so as mini um but I got him at six weeks old mini um but I got him at six weeks old mini um but I got him at six weeks old and he would keep me company and I and he would keep me company and I and he would keep me company and I started meditating actually uh and uh a started meditating actually uh and uh a started meditating actually uh and uh a friend recommended um friend recommended um friend recommended um TM and I would meditate 20 minutes in TM and I would meditate 20 minutes in TM and I would meditate 20 minutes in the morning 20 minutes in the evening the morning 20 minutes in the evening the morning 20 minutes in the evening and I also big believer in exercise and and I also big believer in exercise and and I also big believer in exercise and you know weightlifting and I play you know weightlifting and I play you know weightlifting and I play tennis and uh i' I had been this is not tennis and uh i' I had been this is not tennis and uh i' I had been this is not my first you know proximity to disaster my first you know proximity to disaster my first you know proximity to disaster I had another moment uh in my career I had another moment uh in my career I had another moment uh in my career like uh you know 200 like uh you know 200 like uh you know 200 uh two and I learned this method for uh two and I learned this method for uh two and I learned this method for dealing with these kind of moments which dealing with these kind of moments which dealing with these kind of moments which is uh you just make a little progress is uh you just make a little progress is uh you just make a little progress every day so today I'm going to wake up every day so today I'm going to wake up every day so today I'm going to wake up I'm going to make progress you know I'll I'm going to make progress you know I'll I'm going to make progress you know I'll make progress on the litigation I'll make progress on the litigation I'll make progress on the litigation I'll make progress on the portfolio I'll make

make progress on the portfolio I'll make make progress on the portfolio I'll make progress with my life uh and progress progress with my life uh and progress progress with my life uh and progress compounds a bit like money compounds you compounds a bit like money compounds you compounds a bit like money compounds you don't see a lot of progress in the first don't see a lot of progress in the first don't see a lot of progress in the first few weeks but like 30 days in like okay few weeks but like 30 days in like okay few weeks but like 30 days in like okay you know like you can't look up the you know like you can't look up the you know like you can't look up the mountain top where you used to be mountain top where you used to be mountain top where you used to be because then you'll you'll give up right because then you'll you'll give up right because then you'll you'll give up right but you're just okay just make step by but you're just okay just make step by but you're just okay just make step by step by step uh and then 90 days in step by step uh and then 90 days in step by step uh and then 90 days in you're like okay I was way down there you're like okay I was way down there you're like okay I was way down there okay okay I don't look up just keep okay okay I don't look up just keep okay okay I don't look up just keep making you know progress progress making you know progress progress making you know progress progress progress and progress really does progress and progress really does progress and progress really does compound and and one day you wake up I'm compound and and one day you wake up I'm compound and and one day you wake up I'm like wow it's amazing how far I've come like wow it's amazing how far I've come like wow it's amazing how far I've come and if you look at a chart of Persian and if you look at a chart of Persian and if you look at a chart of Persian Square our company you know you can see Square our company you know you can see Square our company you know you can see the absolute the absolute the absolute bottom you can see where we were you can bottom you can see where we were you can bottom you can see where we were you can see the drop and you can see where we see the drop and you can see where we see the drop and you can see where we are now and and that huge drop that felt are now and and that huge drop that felt are now and and that huge drop that felt like a complete unbelievable disaster like a complete unbelievable disaster like a complete unbelievable disaster looks like a little bump on the curve looks like a little bump on the curve looks like a little bump on the curve and uh it really gives you perspective and uh it really gives you perspective and uh it really gives you perspective on these things you just have to power on these things you just have to power on these things you just have to power through and I think the key is you know through and I think the key is you know through and I think the key is you know I've always been fortunate like from a I've always been fortunate like from a I've always been fortunate like from a mental health point of view and you know mental health point of view and you know mental health point of view and you know nutrition sleep exercise and a little nutrition sleep exercise and a little nutrition sleep exercise and a little progress every day it's you know very progress every day it's you know very progress every day it's you know very that's it and you know good friends and that's it and you know good friends and that's it and you know good friends and family you know I had uh you know family you know I had uh you know family you know I had uh you know go take a walk with a friend every night go take a walk with a friend every night go take a walk with a friend every night um you know and a sister who loves me um you know and a sister who loves me um you know and a sister who loves me and parents who are supportive but they and parents who are supportive but they and parents who are supportive but they were you know they were all worried were you know they were all worried were you know they were all worried about their their son their brother you about their their son their brother you about their their son their brother you know it was it was a moment and also by know it was it was a moment and also by know it was it was a moment and also by the way the other thing to think about

the way the other thing to think about the way the other thing to think about is uh when you recover from something is uh when you recover from something is uh when you recover from something like this you really appreciate it you like this you really appreciate it you like this you really appreciate it you know and uh and also the you know as know and uh and also the you know as know and uh and also the you know as much of the the media loves okay when much of the the media loves okay when much of the the media loves okay when some successful person falls they love some successful person falls they love some successful person falls they love writing the story of success they love writing the story of success they love writing the story of success they love even more the story of failure but when even more the story of failure but when even more the story of failure but when you recover from that it's kind of like you recover from that it's kind of like you recover from that it's kind of like the American story yeah right you know the American story yeah right you know the American story yeah right you know America you know you think of the great America you know you think of the great America you know you think of the great entrepreneurs and how many failures they entrepreneurs and how many failures they entrepreneurs and how many failures they had before they succeeded you know how had before they succeeded you know how had before they succeeded you know how many rocket launches you know did SpaceX many rocket launches you know did SpaceX many rocket launches you know did SpaceX have explode on the pad right and then have explode on the pad right and then have explode on the pad right and then you look at success I mean that's why you look at success I mean that's why you look at success I mean that's why musk is so admired you mentioned Herbal musk is so admired you mentioned Herbal musk is so admired you mentioned Herbal Life can you take me through The Saga of Life can you take me through The Saga of Life can you take me through The Saga of that it's historic that it's historic that it's historic so we at persing Square um shorted very so we at persing Square um shorted very so we at persing Square um shorted very few stocks and the reason for that is few stocks and the reason for that is few stocks and the reason for that is short selling is just inherently short selling is just inherently short selling is just inherently treacherous uh so if you buy a stock treacherous uh so if you buy a stock treacherous uh so if you buy a stock it's called going long right you're it's called going long right you're it's called going long right you're buying something your worst case buying something your worst case buying something your worst case scenario you lose your whole investment scenario you lose your whole investment scenario you lose your whole investment you buy a stock for 100 goes to zero you you buy a stock for 100 goes to zero you you buy a stock for 100 goes to zero you lose $100 right per share you buy one lose $100 right per share you buy one lose $100 right per share you buy one share you 100 your shortest stock at 100 share you 100 your shortest stock at 100 share you 100 your shortest stock at 100 what it means is you borrow the security what it means is you borrow the security what it means is you borrow the security from someone else the analogy I I gave from someone else the analogy I I gave from someone else the analogy I I gave that made it easy for people to that made it easy for people to that made it easy for people to understand and it's a bit like you think understand and it's a bit like you think understand and it's a bit like you think you know silver coins are going to go you know silver coins are going to go you know silver coins are going to go down in value and you have a friend down in value and you have a friend down in value and you have a friend who's got a whole pile of these uh 1880 who's got a whole pile of these uh 1880 who's got a whole pile of these uh 1880 uh silver silver US Dollars and you uh silver silver US Dollars and you uh silver silver US Dollars and you think you're going to go down value you think you're going to go down value you think you're going to go down value you say hey can I borrow you know 10 of say hey can I borrow you know 10 of say hey can I borrow you know 10 of those dollars from you he like sure but

those dollars from you he like sure but those dollars from you he like sure but what are you going to pay me to borrow what are you going to pay me to borrow what are you going to pay me to borrow I'll pay you know um I'll pay you I'll pay you know um I'll pay you I'll pay you know um I'll pay you interest on your on the value of the interest on your on the value of the interest on your on the value of the dollars today so you borrow the dollars dollars today so you borrow the dollars dollars today so you borrow the dollars that are worth $100 each today you pay that are worth $100 each today you pay that are worth $100 each today you pay them interest while you're borrowing them interest while you're borrowing them interest while you're borrowing them and then you go sell them in the them and then you go sell them in the them and then you go sell them in the market for $100 that's what they're market for $100 that's what they're market for $100 that's what they're worth and then they go down in price to worth and then they go down in price to worth and then they go down in price to 50 you go back in you buy the silver 50 you go back in you buy the silver 50 you go back in you buy the silver dollars back at $50 and you give them dollars back at $50 and you give them dollars back at $50 and you give them back to your friend your friend is fine back to your friend your friend is fine back to your friend your friend is fine you borrowed 10 you gave him the 10 back you borrowed 10 you gave him the 10 back you borrowed 10 you gave him the 10 back and he got interest in the meantime he's and he got interest in the meantime he's and he got interest in the meantime he's happy he made money on his coin happy he made money on his coin happy he made money on his coin collection you however made $50 times collection you however made $50 times collection you however made $50 times the 10 coins you made 500 bucks that's the 10 coins you made 500 bucks that's the 10 coins you made 500 bucks that's pretty good the problem with that is pretty good the problem with that is pretty good the problem with that is what if you sell them and they go from what if you sell them and they go from what if you sell them and they go from 100 to a th now you got have to go buy 100 to a th now you got have to go buy 100 to a th now you got have to go buy them back and you got to pay you know them back and you got to pay you know them back and you got to pay you know whatever uh $10,000 to buy back coins whatever uh $10,000 to buy back coins whatever uh $10,000 to buy back coins you know that you would you sold for you know that you would you sold for you know that you would you sold for $500 you're going to lose $9,500 and $500 you're going to lose $9,500 and $500 you're going to lose $9,500 and there's no limit right to how high a there's no limit right to how high a there's no limit right to how high a stock price can go companies go to stock price can go companies go to stock price can go companies go to three3 trillion dollar in value right three3 trillion dollar in value right three3 trillion dollar in value right Tesla a lot of people shorted Tesla Tesla a lot of people shorted Tesla Tesla a lot of people shorted Tesla saying oh it's overvalued he's never saying oh it's overvalued he's never saying oh it's overvalued he's never going to be able to make a successful going to be able to make a successful going to be able to make a successful electric electric electric car well I'm sure there people went car well I'm sure there people went car well I'm sure there people went bankrupt uh shorting Tesla that's why we bankrupt uh shorting Tesla that's why we bankrupt uh shorting Tesla that's why we didn't short stocks but I was presented didn't short stocks but I was presented didn't short stocks but I was presented with this actually reporter that covered with this actually reporter that covered with this actually reporter that covered the other short investment we made early the other short investment we made early the other short investment we made early in the career a company called mbia came in the career a company called mbia came in the career a company called mbia came to me and said bill I found this to me and said bill I found this to me and said bill I found this incredible company you got to take a incredible company you got to take a incredible company you got to take a look at it it's a total fraud and look at it it's a total fraud and look at it it's a total fraud and they're scamming poor people and we they're scamming poor people and we they're scamming poor people and we should say that NB was a very successful should say that NB was a very successful should say that NB was a very successful short it was big part of it was that we short it was big part of it was that we short it was big part of it was that we used a different kind of instrument to used a different kind of instrument to used a different kind of instrument to short it where you we revers that sort

short it where you we revers that sort short it where you we revers that sort of we made the investment asymmetric in of we made the investment asymmetric in of we made the investment asymmetric in our favor meaning put up a small amount our favor meaning put up a small amount our favor meaning put up a small amount of money if it works to make a fortune of money if it works to make a fortune of money if it works to make a fortune whereas Short Selling is you kind of whereas Short Selling is you kind of whereas Short Selling is you kind of sell something and you have to buy it sell something and you have to buy it sell something and you have to buy it back at a higher price urbal life didn't back at a higher price urbal life didn't back at a higher price urbal life didn't have the what's called credit the fall have the what's called credit the fall have the what's called credit the fall swaps that you could purchase not a big swaps that you could purchase not a big swaps that you could purchase not a big enough company didn't have enough debt enough company didn't have enough debt enough company didn't have enough debt outstanding to be able to implement you outstanding to be able to implement you outstanding to be able to implement you had to short the stock in order to make had to short the stock in order to make had to short the stock in order to make it as successful to bet against the it as successful to bet against the it as successful to bet against the company and the more work I did on the company and the more work I did on the company and the more work I did on the company the more I was like oh my God company the more I was like oh my God company the more I was like oh my God this thing is an incredible scam you this thing is an incredible scam you this thing is an incredible scam you know they report to sell weight loss know they report to sell weight loss know they report to sell weight loss shakes uh but in reality they're selling shakes uh but in reality they're selling shakes uh but in reality they're selling you know kind of a fake business plan you know kind of a fake business plan you know kind of a fake business plan and the people that adopt it lose money and the people that adopt it lose money and the people that adopt it lose money and they they go after poor people they and they they go after poor people they and they they go after poor people they go after after actually in many cases go after after actually in many cases go after after actually in many cases undocumented immigrants who are pitched undocumented immigrants who are pitched undocumented immigrants who are pitched on the American dream opportunity and on the American dream opportunity and on the American dream opportunity and because they have few other options because they have few other options because they have few other options because they can't get legal employment because they can't get legal employment because they can't get legal employment they become R life Distributors and it's they become R life Distributors and it's they become R life Distributors and it's a business where you so-called a business where you so-called a business where you so-called multi-level marketing or P you know multi-level marketing or P you know multi-level marketing or P you know multi-level marketing is sort of the the multi-level marketing is sort of the the multi-level marketing is sort of the the the name for a legitimate uh company the name for a legitimate uh company the name for a legitimate uh company like this or it's a pyramid scheme where like this or it's a pyramid scheme where like this or it's a pyramid scheme where basically your sales are really only basically your sales are really only basically your sales are really only coming from people who are you convince coming from people who are you convince coming from people who are you convince to buy the product by getting them them to buy the product by getting them them to buy the product by getting them them into the business that's precisely what into the business that's precisely what into the business that's precisely what this company is and uh like okay this company is and uh like okay this company is and uh like okay shorting a pment scheme seems like one shorting a pment scheme seems like one shorting a pment scheme seems like one we'll make a bunch of money but you know we'll make a bunch of money but you know we'll make a bunch of money but you know two the world will be behind us because two the world will be behind us because two the world will be behind us because they're harming poor people you know they're harming poor people you know they're harming poor people you know Regulators will get interested in a Regulators will get interested in a Regulators will get interested in a company like this and we said you know company like this and we said you know company like this and we said you know the FDC is going to shut this thing down the FDC is going to shut this thing down the FDC is going to shut this thing down and we did a ton of work and I gave this

and we did a ton of work and I gave this and we did a ton of work and I gave this sort of Epic presentation laying out all sort of Epic presentation laying out all sort of Epic presentation laying out all the facts stock got completely crushed the facts stock got completely crushed the facts stock got completely crushed and we were on our way and the and we were on our way and the and we were on our way and the government actually got interested early government actually got interested early government actually got interested early on launched an investigation pretty on launched an investigation pretty on launched an investigation pretty early SEC and other otherwise um but early SEC and other otherwise um but early SEC and other otherwise um but then uh a guy named Carl icon showed up then uh a guy named Carl icon showed up then uh a guy named Carl icon showed up and there's we have a little bit of a and there's we have a little bit of a and there's we have a little bit of a backstory uh but his motivations here backstory uh but his motivations here backstory uh but his motivations here were not really principally driven by were not really principally driven by were not really principally driven by thinking Herbal Life was a good company thinking Herbal Life was a good company thinking Herbal Life was a good company he thought it was a good way to uh hurt he thought it was a good way to uh hurt he thought it was a good way to uh hurt me so he he basically bought a bunch of me so he he basically bought a bunch of me so he he basically bought a bunch of stock and said it was a really great stock and said it was a really great stock and said it was a really great company and you know Carl at least at company and you know Carl at least at company and you know Carl at least at the time threw his weight around a bit the time threw his weight around a bit the time threw his weight around a bit it was a credible investor had a lot of it was a credible investor had a lot of it was a credible investor had a lot of resources and uh that began the Saga so resources and uh that began the Saga so resources and uh that began the Saga so he was we should say he was we should say he was we should say uh a legendary investor himself I'd say uh a legendary investor himself I'd say uh a legendary investor himself I'd say legendary in a sense yes for sure an legendary in a sense yes for sure an legendary in a sense yes for sure an iconic iconic Carl icon oh that's very iconic iconic Carl icon oh that's very iconic iconic Carl icon oh that's very well done so definitely a iconic well done so definitely a iconic well done so definitely a iconic investor so what was the backstory investor so what was the backstory investor so what was the backstory between the two of you so uh I mentioned between the two of you so uh I mentioned between the two of you so uh I mentioned that I had another period of time where that I had another period of time where that I had another period of time where significant business challenges this was significant business challenges this was significant business challenges this was my first called Gotham partners and we my first called Gotham partners and we my first called Gotham partners and we had a court stop a transaction between had a court stop a transaction between had a court stop a transaction between some private a private company we owned some private a private company we owned some private a private company we owned and a public company it's another long and a public company it's another long and a public company it's another long story if you want to go I would I would story if you want to go I would I would story if you want to go I would I would love to hear it as well um but it was love to hear it as well um but it was love to hear it as well um but it was really my deciding to wind up my former really my deciding to wind up my former really my deciding to wind up my former fund and we owned a big stake and a fund and we owned a big stake and a fund and we owned a big stake and a company called hallwood realy Partners company called hallwood realy Partners company called hallwood realy Partners which was a company that owned real which was a company that owned real which was a company that owned real estate assets and it was worth a lot estate assets and it was worth a lot estate assets and it was worth a lot more than where was of trading but it

more than where was of trading but it more than where was of trading but it needed an activist to really unlock the needed an activist to really unlock the needed an activist to really unlock the value and we were in fact going out of value and we were in fact going out of value and we were in fact going out of business and didn't have the time or the business and didn't have the time or the business and didn't have the time or the resources to pursue it resources to pursue it resources to pursue it so I sold it to Carl so I sold it to Carl so I sold it to Carl icon uh but and I sold it to him at a icon uh but and I sold it to him at a icon uh but and I sold it to him at a premium to where the stock was trading I premium to where the stock was trading I premium to where the stock was trading I think the stock was like 66 I sold to think the stock was like 66 I sold to think the stock was like 66 I sold to them for 80 but it was worth about them for 80 but it was worth about them for 80 but it was worth about 150 and I said look uh and part of the 150 and I said look uh and part of the 150 and I said look uh and part of the deal was Carl's like look I'll give you deal was Carl's like look I'll give you deal was Carl's like look I'll give you schmuck Insurance you know I'll make you schmuck Insurance you know I'll make you schmuck Insurance you know I'll make you sure you don't look bad and I had sure you don't look bad and I had sure you don't look bad and I had another deal at a higher price without another deal at a higher price without another deal at a higher price without schmuck insurance but I deal with Carl schmuck insurance but I deal with Carl schmuck insurance but I deal with Carl at a lower price with schmuck insurance at a lower price with schmuck insurance at a lower price with schmuck insurance and the way the schmuck Insurance went and the way the schmuck Insurance went and the way the schmuck Insurance went he said look Bill if I sell the stock he said look Bill if I sell the stock he said look Bill if I sell the stock and next three years uh you know for a and next three years uh you know for a and next three years uh you know for a higher price I'll give you 50% of my higher price I'll give you 50% of my higher price I'll give you 50% of my profit that's pretty good profit that's pretty good profit that's pretty good deal so we made that deal and because I deal so we made that deal and because I deal so we made that deal and because I was dealing with Carl icon who had a was dealing with Carl icon who had a was dealing with Carl icon who had a reputation for you know being difficult reputation for you know being difficult reputation for you know being difficult I was you know very focused on the I was you know very focused on the I was you know very focused on the agreement and we didn't want him to be agreement and we didn't want him to be agreement and we didn't want him to be able to be cute so the agreement said if able to be cute so the agreement said if able to be cute so the agreement said if we sell if he sells or otherwise we sell if he sells or otherwise we sell if he sells or otherwise transfers his shares and I we came up transfers his shares and I we came up transfers his shares and I we came up with a definition that include every with a definition that include every with a definition that include every version version of sale okay cuz you version version of sale okay cuz you version version of sale okay cuz you know it's know it's know it's Carl uh well he then uh buys the Stak Carl uh well he then uh buys the Stak Carl uh well he then uh buys the Stak and then makes a bid for the and then makes a bid for the and then makes a bid for the company and you know plan is for him to company and you know plan is for him to company and you know plan is for him to get the company and he bids like 120 a get the company and he bids like 120 a get the company and he bids like 120 a share and the company hires Morgan share and the company hires Morgan share and the company hires Morgan Stanley to sell Stanley to sell Stanley to sell itself and he raises bid to 125 and 130 itself and he raises bid to 125 and 130 itself and he raises bid to 125 and 130 eventually gets sold I don't remember eventually gets sold I don't remember eventually gets sold I don't remember the exact price let's say $145 a share

the exact price let's say $145 a share the exact price let's say $145 a share and Carl's not the winning and Carl's not the winning and Carl's not the winning bidder and he sells this stock or loses bidder and he sells this stock or loses bidder and he sells this stock or loses or transfers his shares for $145 a share or transfers his shares for $145 a share or transfers his shares for $145 a share so he owes actually our investors the so he owes actually our investors the so he owes actually our investors the difference between 145 and 80 uh times difference between 145 and 80 uh times difference between 145 and 80 uh times 50% and I had like you lawyers never 50% and I had like you lawyers never 50% and I had like you lawyers never like you to put like a arithmetic like you to put like a arithmetic like you to put like a arithmetic example I put like a formula you know example I put like a formula you know example I put like a formula you know like out of a math book in in the like out of a math book in in the like out of a math book in in the document so there can be no confusion it document so there can be no confusion it document so there can be no confusion it was only an eight-page really simple was only an eight-page really simple was only an eight-page really simple agreement so the deal closes and he's agreement so the deal closes and he's agreement so the deal closes and he's supposed to pay us in two business days supposed to pay us in two business days supposed to pay us in two business days or three business days I wait a few or three business days I wait a few or three business days I wait a few business days no money comes in I call business days no money comes in I call business days no money comes in I call Carl I'm like Carl um congratulations on Carl I'm like Carl um congratulations on Carl I'm like Carl um congratulations on on the uh hallwood realy thanks Bill I on the uh hallwood realy thanks Bill I on the uh hallwood realy thanks Bill I think Carl just want to remind you I think Carl just want to remind you I think Carl just want to remind you I know it's been a few years but um you know it's been a few years but um you know it's been a few years but um you know you we have this agreement remember know you we have this agreement remember know you we have this agreement remember the schmuck insurance it's like yeah I the schmuck insurance it's like yeah I the schmuck insurance it's like yeah I said well you owe us our schmuck said well you owe us our schmuck said well you owe us our schmuck insurance he what do you mean I didn't insurance he what do you mean I didn't insurance he what do you mean I didn't sell my shares I said do you do you sell my shares I said do you do you sell my shares I said do you do you still have the shares he says no I said still have the shares he says no I said still have the shares he says no I said what happened to them well the company what happened to them well the company what happened to them well the company did a merger for cash did a merger for cash did a merger for cash and they took away my shares but I and they took away my shares but I and they took away my shares but I didn't sell didn't sell didn't sell them you understand what happened so I them you understand what happened so I them you understand what happened so I had I said car I'm going to have to sue had I said car I'm going to have to sue had I said car I'm going to have to sue you said sue me I'm G to sue you he you said sue me I'm G to sue you he you said sue me I'm G to sue you he says so I sued him and uh the legal says so I sued him and uh the legal says so I sued him and uh the legal system in America takes can take some system in America takes can take some system in America takes can take some time and what he would do is we sued and time and what he would do is we sued and time and what he would do is we sued and we won in the in the whatever New York we won in the in the whatever New York we won in the in the whatever New York Supreme Supreme Supreme Court uh and then he

Court uh and then he Court uh and then he appealed and he you can appeal like 6 appealed and he you can appeal like 6 appealed and he you can appeal like 6 months after the case we waited to the months after the case we waited to the months after the case we waited to the 179th day and then he would appeal and 179th day and then he would appeal and 179th day and then he would appeal and then we fought it at the next level and then we fought it at the next level and then we fought it at the next level and then he would appeal and he appealed all then he would appeal and he appealed all then he would appeal and he appealed all the way to Supreme Court of course the the way to Supreme Court of course the the way to Supreme Court of course the Supreme Court wouldn't take the case it Supreme Court wouldn't take the case it Supreme Court wouldn't take the case it took years now we had as part of our took years now we had as part of our took years now we had as part of our agreement we got 9% interest on the agreement we got 9% interest on the agreement we got 9% interest on the money that he owed us so I viewed as my money that he owed us so I viewed as my money that he owed us so I viewed as my Carl icon money market account with a Carl icon money market account with a Carl icon money market account with a much higher interest rate and eventually much higher interest rate and eventually much higher interest rate and eventually I won what was the amount just tiny now I won what was the amount just tiny now I won what was the amount just tiny now it was material to my investors so my it was material to my investors so my it was material to my investors so my first fund I wound it down but I wanted first fund I wound it down but I wanted first fund I wound it down but I wanted to maximize everything for my investors to maximize everything for my investors to maximize everything for my investors right these are the people back me at 26 right these are the people back me at 26 right these are the people back me at 26 years old I was right out of business years old I was right out of business years old I was right out of business school had no experience and they school had no experience and they school had no experience and they supported me so I'm going to go to the supported me so I'm going to go to the supported me so I'm going to go to the end of the Earth for end of the Earth for end of the Earth for them uh and 4 and a half million them uh and 4 and a half million them uh and 4 and a half million relative to our our fund at the end was relative to our our fund at the end was relative to our our fund at the end was maybe 400 million so it wasn't a huge maybe 400 million so it wasn't a huge maybe 400 million so it wasn't a huge number but it was a big percentage of number but it was a big percentage of number but it was a big percentage of what was left after I sold all our what was left after I sold all our what was left after I sold all our liquid security so I was fighting for it liquid security so I was fighting for it liquid security so I was fighting for it so we got four and a half million plus so we got four and a half million plus so we got four and a half million plus interest for 8 years or something that's interest for 8 years or something that's interest for 8 years or something that's how long the litigation took so we got how long the litigation took so we got how long the litigation took so we got about about about double uh so he owed me 9 million which double uh so he owed me 9 million which double uh so he owed me 9 million which to Carl icon who had probably a $20 to Carl icon who had probably a $20 to Carl icon who had probably a $20 billion net worth at the time this was billion net worth at the time this was billion net worth at the time this was nothing but to me it was like okay this nothing but to me it was like okay this nothing but to me it was like okay this my Investor's money I'm going to get it my Investor's money I'm going to get it my Investor's money I'm going to get it back um and so you know eventually we back um and so you know eventually we back um and so you know eventually we won eventually he paid and then he won eventually he paid and then he won eventually he paid and then he called me he said Bill called me he said Bill called me he said Bill congratulations now we can be congratulations now we can be congratulations now we can be friends and we can we can invest do some friends and we can we can invest do some friends and we can we can invest do some investing together I'm like Carl fuck

investing together I'm like Carl fuck investing together I'm like Carl fuck you you actually said fuck you yes I'm you you actually said fuck you yes I'm you you actually said fuck you yes I'm not that kind of person generally but uh not that kind of person generally but uh not that kind of person generally but uh you know he made eight years to pay me you know he made eight years to pay me you know he made eight years to pay me not me even me my investors money they not me even me my investors money they not me even me my investors money they owed so I yeah so he probably didn't owed so I yeah so he probably didn't owed so I yeah so he probably didn't like that so he kind of hung around in like that so he kind of hung around in like that so he kind of hung around in the weeds waiting for an opportunity and the weeds waiting for an opportunity and the weeds waiting for an opportunity and then from there I you know started then from there I you know started then from there I you know started purging we had kind of straight line up purging we had kind of straight line up purging we had kind of straight line up you know up the first 12 years we could you know up the first 12 years we could you know up the first 12 years we could do nothing wrong then do nothing wrong then do nothing wrong then Valiant Herbal Life right uh he sees an Valiant Herbal Life right uh he sees an Valiant Herbal Life right uh he sees an opportunity opportunity opportunity and he buys the stock he figures he's and he buys the stock he figures he's and he buys the stock he figures he's going to run me off the road and so that going to run me off the road and so that going to run me off the road and so that was the beginning of that and kind of was the beginning of that and kind of was the beginning of that and kind of the the moment uh and I think it's the the the moment uh and I think it's the the the moment uh and I think it's the I'm told by CNBC it's the most watched I'm told by CNBC it's the most watched I'm told by CNBC it's the most watched uh segment in business television uh segment in business television uh segment in business television history uh they're interviewing me about history uh they're interviewing me about history uh they're interviewing me about the urbal Life Investment on CNBC and the urbal Life Investment on CNBC and the urbal Life Investment on CNBC and then Carl icon calls into the show and then Carl icon calls into the show and then Carl icon calls into the show and we have kind of a interesting we have kind of a interesting we have kind of a interesting conversation where he calls me all kinds conversation where he calls me all kinds conversation where he calls me all kinds of names and stuff so it's it was a of names and stuff so it's it was a of names and stuff so it's it was a moment it was a moment in my life it moment it was a moment in my life it moment it was a moment in my life it wasn't public information that he was wasn't public information that he was wasn't public information that he was long on herb life he didn't yet disclose long on herb life he didn't yet disclose long on herb life he didn't yet disclose he had a stake yeah but he was just he had a stake yeah but he was just he had a stake yeah but he was just telling me how stupid I was to be short telling me how stupid I was to be short telling me how stupid I was to be short this company so for him it wasn't about this company so for him it wasn't about this company so for him it wasn't about the fundamentals of the company it was the fundamentals of the company it was the fundamentals of the company it was about it was just personal 100% is there about it was just personal 100% is there about it was just personal 100% is there part of you that regrets saying fuck you part of you that regrets saying fuck you part of you that regrets saying fuck you on that phone call to Carl ion no I I generally have generally have no

no I I generally have generally have no regrets uh um because I'm very happy regrets uh um because I'm very happy regrets uh um because I'm very happy with where I am now and I feel like you with where I am now and I feel like you with where I am now and I feel like you know it's a bit like you know you step know it's a bit like you know you step know it's a bit like you know you step on the the butterfly in the farest and on the the butterfly in the farest and on the the butterfly in the farest and the world changes because you know every the world changes because you know every the world changes because you know every action has a reaction you know if you're action has a reaction you know if you're action has a reaction you know if you're happy with who you are where you are in happy with who you are where you are in happy with who you are where you are in life every decision you've made good or life every decision you've made good or life every decision you've made good or bad over the course of your life got you bad over the course of your life got you bad over the course of your life got you to precisely where you are I wouldn't to precisely where you are I wouldn't to precisely where you are I wouldn't change anything he said you lost money change anything he said you lost money change anything he said you lost money on Herbal Life so what so he did the on Herbal Life so what so he did the on Herbal Life so what so he did the long-term battle what he did is he he long-term battle what he did is he he long-term battle what he did is he he got on the board of the company and used got on the board of the company and used got on the board of the company and used the company's Financial Resources plus the company's Financial Resources plus the company's Financial Resources plus his stake in the business to squeeze his stake in the business to squeeze his stake in the business to squeeze squeeze us and a squeeze in Short squeeze us and a squeeze in Short squeeze us and a squeeze in Short Selling is where you restrict the supply Selling is where you restrict the supply Selling is where you restrict the supply of the Securities so that there's a of the Securities so that there's a of the Securities so that there's a scarcity and then you encourage people scarcity and then you encourage people scarcity and then you encourage people to buy the stock and you drive the stock to buy the stock and you drive the stock to buy the stock and you drive the stock up and as I explained before you short up and as I explained before you short up and as I explained before you short those coins at 10 they go to 100 you can those coins at 10 they go to 100 you can those coins at 10 they go to 100 you can lose theoretically an unlimited amount lose theoretically an unlimited amount lose theoretically an unlimited amount of money and that's scary that's why we of money and that's scary that's why we of money and that's scary that's why we don't short stocks that's why I didn't don't short stocks that's why I didn't don't short stocks that's why I didn't short stocks before this but uh this was short stocks before this but uh this was short stocks before this but uh this was unfortunately I had to have the personal unfortunately I had to have the personal unfortunately I had to have the personal lesson so how much was for him personal lesson so how much was for him personal lesson so how much was for him personal versus part of sort of the game of versus part of sort of the game of versus part of sort of the game of investing well he thought he could make investing well he thought he could make investing well he thought he could make money doing this he wouldn't have done money doing this he wouldn't have done money doing this he wouldn't have done it if he did otherwise he thought his it if he did otherwise he thought his it if he did otherwise he thought his bully pulpit his ability to create a bully pulpit his ability to create a bully pulpit his ability to create a short squeeze his control over the short squeeze his control over the short squeeze his control over the company uh would enable him to achieve company uh would enable him to achieve company uh would enable him to achieve this uh and he made a billion we lost a this uh and he made a billion we lost a this uh and he made a billion we lost a billion so you think it was a financial billion so you think it was a financial billion so you think it was a financial decision not a personal it was a decision not a personal it was a decision not a personal it was a personal decision to pursue it but he personal decision to pursue it but he personal decision to pursue it but he was waiting for an opportunity he could

was waiting for an opportunity he could was waiting for an opportunity he could make money at our expense and was kind make money at our expense and was kind make money at our expense and was kind of a brilliant opportunity for him now of a brilliant opportunity for him now of a brilliant opportunity for him now the irony is well first of all the FTC the irony is well first of all the FTC the irony is well first of all the FTC found a few interesting facts so one the found a few interesting facts so one the found a few interesting facts so one the government launched an investigation government launched an investigation government launched an investigation they ended up settling with the company they ended up settling with the company they ended up settling with the company and the company paid $220 million in and the company paid $220 million in and the company paid $220 million in fines uh I I met a professor from fines uh I I met a professor from fines uh I I met a professor from Berkeley a couple years ago who told me Berkeley a couple years ago who told me Berkeley a couple years ago who told me that he had been hired by the government that he had been hired by the government that he had been hired by the government as their expert on Herbal Life and he as their expert on Herbal Life and he as their expert on Herbal Life and he got access to all their data was able to got access to all their data was able to got access to all their data was able to prove that they're a pyment scheme but prove that they're a pyment scheme but prove that they're a pyment scheme but the government ultimately settled with the government ultimately settled with the government ultimately settled with Carl because they were afraid they could Carl because they were afraid they could Carl because they were afraid they could you know they could possibly lose in you know they could possibly lose in you know they could possibly lose in court so they settled with him uh but if court so they settled with him uh but if court so they settled with him uh but if you look at the stock if we' been able you look at the stock if we' been able you look at the stock if we' been able to stay short the entire time we would to stay short the entire time we would to stay short the entire time we would have made a bunch of money because the have made a bunch of money because the have made a bunch of money because the you know stock had a$6 billion doll you know stock had a$6 billion doll you know stock had a$6 billion doll market cap and we shorted it today it's market cap and we shorted it today it's market cap and we shorted it today it's probably a billion a billion and a half probably a billion a billion and a half probably a billion a billion and a half so you left the short POS or whatever so you left the short POS or whatever so you left the short POS or whatever that's called Clos covered closed it out that's called Clos covered closed it out that's called Clos covered closed it out yeah we sold Valiant we covered Herbal yeah we sold Valiant we covered Herbal yeah we sold Valiant we covered Herbal Life that was the resetting moment for Life that was the resetting moment for Life that was the resetting moment for the firm because it would just the firm because it would just the firm because it would just psychologically and you know the beauty psychologically and you know the beauty psychologically and you know the beauty of investing is you don't need to make of investing is you don't need to make of investing is you don't need to make it back the way you lost it right you it back the way you lost it right you it back the way you lost it right you can just take your loss by the way can just take your loss by the way can just take your loss by the way losses are valuable and that the losses are valuable and that the losses are valuable and that the government allows you to take a tax loss government allows you to take a tax loss government allows you to take a tax loss and that can shelter other gains and we and that can shelter other gains and we and that can shelter other gains and we just refocused can you say one thing you just refocused can you say one thing you just refocused can you say one thing you really like about Carl icon and one really like about Carl icon and one really like about Carl icon and one thing you really don't like about him thing you really don't like about him thing you really don't like about him sure so uh he's a very Charming guy so sure so uh he's a very Charming guy so sure so uh he's a very Charming guy so in the midst of all this uh at the in the midst of all this uh at the in the midst of all this uh at the hallwood one he took me out for dinner hallwood one he took me out for dinner hallwood one he took me out for dinner to his favorite Italian restaurant

to his favorite Italian restaurant to his favorite Italian restaurant really yeah uh we were in the middle of really yeah uh we were in the middle of really yeah uh we were in the middle of the litigation to see if he could the litigation to see if he could the litigation to see if he could resolve it and he offered 10 million to resolve it and he offered 10 million to resolve it and he offered 10 million to my favorite my favorite my favorite charity uh the problem was that it charity uh the problem was that it charity uh the problem was that it wasn't my money it was my Investor's wasn't my money it was my Investor's wasn't my money it was my Investor's money so I couldn't settle with him on money so I couldn't settle with him on money so I couldn't settle with him on that basis uh but uh you know I had the that basis uh but uh you know I had the that basis uh but uh you know I had the chance to spend real time with him at chance to spend real time with him at chance to spend real time with him at dinner he's funny he's charismatic he's dinner he's funny he's charismatic he's dinner he's funny he's charismatic he's got incredible stories um and you know got incredible stories um and you know got incredible stories um and you know actually I made peace with him over time actually I made peace with him over time actually I made peace with him over time we had a little hug out on CNBC even had we had a little hug out on CNBC even had we had a little hug out on CNBC even had him to my house believe it or not um I him to my house believe it or not um I him to my house believe it or not um I hosted a uh something called the finance hosted a uh something called the finance hosted a uh something called the finance cup which is a tennis tournament between cup which is a tennis tournament between cup which is a tennis tournament between uh people in finance in Europe and the uh people in finance in Europe and the uh people in finance in Europe and the us and we had the uh the event at my us and we had the uh the event at my us and we had the uh the event at my house and one guy thought to invite Carl house and one guy thought to invite Carl house and one guy thought to invite Carl icon and so we had Carl ion there to icon and so we had Carl ion there to icon and so we had Carl ion there to present Awards and and again I have to present Awards and and again I have to present Awards and and again I have to say I kind of like the guy so um but was say I kind of like the guy so um but was say I kind of like the guy so um but was I didn't like him much during this is I didn't like him much during this is I didn't like him much during this is there because at least from The Outsider there because at least from The Outsider there because at least from The Outsider perspective there's a bit of a personal perspective there's a bit of a personal perspective there's a bit of a personal Vengeance Vengeance Vengeance here or anger can build up do you ever here or anger can build up do you ever here or anger can build up do you ever worry the personal attacks between worry the personal attacks between worry the personal attacks between powerful investors can Cloud your powerful investors can Cloud your powerful investors can Cloud your judgment or what is the right financial judgment or what is the right financial judgment or what is the right financial decision I think it's possible but again decision I think it's possible but again decision I think it's possible but again I try to be extremely economically I try to be extremely economically I try to be extremely economically rational and actually the last seven rational and actually the last seven rational and actually the last seven years been quite peaceful you I really years been quite peaceful you I really years been quite peaceful you I really have not been uh an activist in the old have not been uh an activist in the old have not been uh an activist in the old uh form uh for many years and the vast uh form uh for many years and the vast uh form uh for many years and the vast majority of even our activist majority of even our activist majority of even our activist Investments historically were very

Investments historically were very Investments historically were very polite respectful cases the Press of polite respectful cases the Press of polite respectful cases the Press of course focuses on the the more course focuses on the the more course focuses on the the more interesting ones like Chipotle was one interesting ones like Chipotle was one interesting ones like Chipotle was one of the best investments we ever made uh of the best investments we ever made uh of the best investments we ever made uh we you know we got four of eight board we you know we got four of eight board we you know we got four of eight board seats and we worked with management it seats and we worked with management it seats and we worked with management it was a great outcome I don't think ever was a great outcome I don't think ever was a great outcome I don't think ever been a story about it and the stocks up been a story about it and the stocks up been a story about it and the stocks up you know almost 10 times from the time you know almost 10 times from the time you know almost 10 times from the time we hired Brian Nichol CEO but it's not we hired Brian Nichol CEO but it's not we hired Brian Nichol CEO but it's not interesting because there was no battle interesting because there was no battle interesting because there was no battle whereas Herbal Life of course was like whereas Herbal Life of course was like whereas Herbal Life of course was like an epic battle battle even Canadian an epic battle battle even Canadian an epic battle battle even Canadian Pacific so you know for a period there Pacific so you know for a period there Pacific so you know for a period there you most people when they meet me in you most people when they meet me in you most people when they meet me in person they like wow B you seem like a person they like wow B you seem like a person they like wow B you seem like a really nice guy but I thought you know really nice guy but I thought you know really nice guy but I thought you know so uh but things have been pretty calm so uh but things have been pretty calm so uh but things have been pretty calm for the last uh seven years of course for the last uh seven years of course for the last uh seven years of course there's more than just the investing there's more than just the investing there's more than just the investing that your life is about especially that your life is about especially that your life is about especially recently let me just ask you about recently let me just ask you about recently let me just ask you about what's going on in the world first uh what's going on in the world first uh what's going on in the world first uh what was your reaction and what is your what was your reaction and what is your what was your reaction and what is your reaction reaction reaction thoughts uh with respect to the October thoughts uh with respect to the October thoughts uh with respect to the October 7th attacks by Hamas on Israel you know 7th attacks by Hamas on Israel you know 7th attacks by Hamas on Israel you know it's a sad world that we live in uh that it's a sad world that we live in uh that it's a sad world that we live in uh that uh one we have terrorists and two that uh one we have terrorists and two that uh one we have terrorists and two that we could have uh such barbaric terrorism we could have uh such barbaric terrorism we could have uh such barbaric terrorism and yeah just a reminder of that so and yeah just a reminder of that so and yeah just a reminder of that so there's several things I can ask here there's several things I can ask here there's several things I can ask here first on the your views on the the first on the your views on the the first on the your views on the the prospects of the Middle East but also on prospects of the Middle East but also on prospects of the Middle East but also on um the reaction to this war and um in um the reaction to this war and um in um the reaction to this war and um in the United States especially on the United States especially on the United States especially on University campuses so first let me just

University campuses so first let me just University campuses so first let me just ask you've said that you're Pro ask you've said that you're Pro ask you've said that you're Pro Palestinian can you explain what you Palestinian can you explain what you Palestinian can you explain what you mean by that you know with all of my mean by that you know with all of my mean by that you know with all of my posts about Israel you I'm obviously posts about Israel you I'm obviously posts about Israel you I'm obviously very supportive of the country of Israel very supportive of the country of Israel very supportive of the country of Israel Israel's right to exist Israel's right Israel's right to exist Israel's right Israel's right to exist Israel's right to defend to defend to defend itself my Arab friends my Palestinian itself my Arab friends my Palestinian itself my Arab friends my Palestinian friends you know we kind of saying hey friends you know we kind of saying hey friends you know we kind of saying hey Bill where are you uh you know what Bill where are you uh you know what Bill where are you uh you know what about Palestinian lives and you I was uh about Palestinian lives and you I was uh about Palestinian lives and you I was uh pretty early in my life a guy named pretty early in my life a guy named pretty early in my life a guy named Marty parrat who's been important to me Marty parrat who's been important to me Marty parrat who's been important to me over the course of my life a professor over the course of my life a professor over the course of my life a professor first investor in my fund introduced me first investor in my fund introduced me first investor in my fund introduced me to ner uh asked me when I was right out to ner uh asked me when I was right out to ner uh asked me when I was right out of school to join this uh nonprofit of school to join this uh nonprofit of school to join this uh nonprofit called the Jerusalem Foundation which called the Jerusalem Foundation which called the Jerusalem Foundation which was a a charitable Foundation that was a a charitable Foundation that was a a charitable Foundation that supported Teddy Kik when he was mayor of supported Teddy Kik when he was mayor of supported Teddy Kik when he was mayor of Jerusalem I ended up becoming the Jerusalem I ended up becoming the Jerusalem I ended up becoming the youngest chairman of the Jerusalem youngest chairman of the Jerusalem youngest chairman of the Jerusalem foundation in my 30s and I spent some foundation in my 30s and I spent some foundation in my 30s and I spent some time in Israel and uh the early time in Israel and uh the early time in Israel and uh the early philanthropic stuff I did uh with the philanthropic stuff I did uh with the philanthropic stuff I did uh with the Jerusalem Foundation I thing I was most Jerusalem Foundation I thing I was most Jerusalem Foundation I thing I was most interested in was was uh kind of the interested in was was uh kind of the interested in was was uh kind of the Palestinian the plight of the Palestinian the plight of the Palestinian the plight of the Palestinians and kind of peaceful Palestinians and kind of peaceful Palestinians and kind of peaceful coexistence and so I had kind of an coexistence and so I had kind of an coexistence and so I had kind of an early kind of perspective and you know early kind of perspective and you know early kind of perspective and you know as chairman of the Jalem Foundation I as chairman of the Jalem Foundation I as chairman of the Jalem Foundation I would go into you know Arab communities would go into you know Arab communities would go into you know Arab communities I would meet with families in their I would meet with families in their I would meet with families in their homes you know you get a sense of the homes you know you get a sense of the homes you know you get a sense of the the humanity of of a people and I care the humanity of of a people and I care the humanity of of a people and I care about Humanity uh I generally take the about Humanity uh I generally take the about Humanity uh I generally take the side of people who've been disadvantaged side of people who've been disadvantaged side of people who've been disadvantaged you know almost all of our philanthropic you know almost all of our philanthropic you know almost all of our philanthropic work has been in that capacity so it's work has been in that capacity so it's work has been in that capacity so it's sort of my

sort of my sort of my natural uh perspective but I don't take natural uh perspective but I don't take natural uh perspective but I don't take the side of terrorists ever the side of terrorists ever the side of terrorists ever obviously and uh you the whole thing is obviously and uh you the whole thing is obviously and uh you the whole thing is just a tragedy so to you this is about just a tragedy so to you this is about just a tragedy so to you this is about Hamas not about Palestine yes I mean you Hamas not about Palestine yes I mean you Hamas not about Palestine yes I mean you know the the problem of course is when know the the problem of course is when know the the problem of course is when Hamas controls you know for the last Hamas controls you know for the last Hamas controls you know for the last almost 20 years has controlled Gaza you almost 20 years has controlled Gaza you almost 20 years has controlled Gaza you know they've including the education know they've including the education know they've including the education system they're educating you know you system they're educating you know you system they're educating you know you see these you know training videos of see these you know training videos of see these you know training videos of kindergarteners uh indoctrinating them kindergarteners uh indoctrinating them kindergarteners uh indoctrinating them into hating Jews and Israel uh so it's into hating Jews and Israel uh so it's into hating Jews and Israel uh so it's it's uh and of course you don't like to it's uh and of course you don't like to it's uh and of course you don't like to see uh Palestinians celebrating you know see uh Palestinians celebrating you know see uh Palestinians celebrating you know some of those early videos of October some of those early videos of October some of those early videos of October 7th with you know dead bodies in the 7th with you know dead bodies in the 7th with you know dead bodies in the back of trucks and people you know back of trucks and people you know back of trucks and people you know cheering uh so it's it's a really cheering uh so it's it's a really cheering uh so it's it's a really unfortunate situation but I you know I unfortunate situation but I you know I unfortunate situation but I you know I think about you know a Palestinian life think about you know a Palestinian life think about you know a Palestinian life is is is important as valuable as a Jewish Life important as valuable as a Jewish Life important as valuable as a Jewish Life as a American life and you know what do as a American life and you know what do as a American life and you know what do people really want they want a place people really want they want a place people really want they want a place they want a home uh they want to be able they want a home uh they want to be able they want a home uh they want to be able to feed their family they want a job uh to feed their family they want a job uh to feed their family they want a job uh that generates the resources to feed that generates the resources to feed that generates the resources to feed their family they want their kids to their family they want their kids to their family they want their kids to have a better life than they've had uh have a better life than they've had uh have a better life than they've had uh they want peace I think these are basic they want peace I think these are basic they want peace I think these are basic human things I'm sure the vast majority human things I'm sure the vast majority human things I'm sure the vast majority of Palestinians share these views uh but of Palestinians share these views uh but of Palestinians share these views uh but it's such an embedded situation with it's such an embedded situation with it's such an embedded situation with hatred and as I say indoctrination and hatred and as I say indoctrination and hatred and as I say indoctrination and then you know going back to incentives

then you know going back to incentives then you know going back to incentives you know terrorists generate their you know terrorists generate their you know terrorists generate their resources by committing terrorism and resources by committing terrorism and resources by committing terrorism and that's how they get funding uh and that's how they get funding uh and that's how they get funding uh and that's you know there's a lot of that's you know there's a lot of that's you know there's a lot of graft uh you know there it's a graft uh you know there it's a graft uh you know there it's a plutocracy right the top of the plutocracy right the top of the plutocracy right the top of the terrorist pyramid you know if you accept terrorist pyramid you know if you accept terrorist pyramid you know if you accept the numbers that are in the Press you the numbers that are in the Press you the numbers that are in the Press you the top leaders you know have billions the top leaders you know have billions the top leaders you know have billions of dollars you know 40 billion or so has of dollars you know 40 billion or so has of dollars you know 40 billion or so has gone into Gaza over the last and and the gone into Gaza over the last and and the gone into Gaza over the last and and the West Bank over the last 30 years a West Bank over the last 30 years a West Bank over the last 30 years a number like that uh and a lot of it's number like that uh and a lot of it's number like that uh and a lot of it's disappeared into some combination of disappeared into some combination of disappeared into some combination of corruption or tunnels or weapons and the corruption or tunnels or weapons and the corruption or tunnels or weapons and the tragedy is you know you look at what tragedy is you know you look at what tragedy is you know you look at what Singapore has achieved in the last 30 Singapore has achieved in the last 30 Singapore has achieved in the last 30 years right do you think that's still years right do you think that's still years right do you think that's still possible if we look into the future of possible if we look into the future of possible if we look into the future of 10 20 50 years from now absolutely so 10 20 50 years from now absolutely so 10 20 50 years from now absolutely so not just not just not just peace but peace comes with peace but peace comes with peace but peace comes with prosperity uh um you know people are you prosperity uh um you know people are you prosperity uh um you know people are you know under the leadership of terrorists know under the leadership of terrorists know under the leadership of terrorists you're not going to have prosperity and you're not going to have prosperity and you're not going to have prosperity and you're not going to have peace and I you're not going to have peace and I you're not going to have peace and I think the you know the Israelis withdrew think the you know the Israelis withdrew think the you know the Israelis withdrew in 2005 and fairly quickly Hamas took in 2005 and fairly quickly Hamas took in 2005 and fairly quickly Hamas took control of the situation that would that control of the situation that would that control of the situation that would that should never have been allowed to happen should never have been allowed to happen should never have been allowed to happen um and I think you know if you think um and I think you know if you think um and I think you know if you think about I I have the opportunity to spend about I I have the opportunity to spend about I I have the opportunity to spend a what call it an hour with Henry a what call it an hour with Henry a what call it an hour with Henry Kissinger uh a few months before he Kissinger uh a few months before he Kissinger uh a few months before he passed away and we were talking about uh passed away and we were talking about uh passed away and we were talking about uh Gaza or in the early stage of the war he Gaza or in the early stage of the war he Gaza or in the early stage of the war he said look you know this is said look you know this is said look you know this is not uh you can think about Gaza as the

not uh you can think about Gaza as the not uh you can think about Gaza as the as a test of a two-state solution is not as a test of a two-state solution is not as a test of a two-state solution is not looking good these were his words uh so looking good these were his words uh so looking good these were his words uh so the next time round you look Palestinian the next time round you look Palestinian the next time round you look Palestinian people should have their own state but people should have their own state but people should have their own state but it can't be a state where you know 40 it can't be a state where you know 40 it can't be a state where you know 40 billion resources goes in and is spent billion resources goes in and is spent billion resources goes in and is spent on weaponry and missiles and Rockets on weaponry and missiles and Rockets on weaponry and missiles and Rockets going into Israel and I I do think a going into Israel and I I do think a going into Israel and I I do think a consor consor consor of the Gulf States you know the Saudis of the Gulf States you know the Saudis of the Gulf States you know the Saudis and others have to ultimately oversee and others have to ultimately oversee and others have to ultimately oversee the governance of this region if I think the governance of this region if I think the governance of this region if I think if if that can happen I think you can if if that can happen I think you can if if that can happen I think you can have peace you can have have peace you can have have peace you can have Prosperity um and uh you know I'm Prosperity um and uh you know I'm Prosperity um and uh you know I'm fundamentally an optimist so Coalition fundamentally an optimist so Coalition fundamentally an optimist so Coalition of uh of uh of uh governance governance matters you know governance governance matters you know governance governance matters you know going back to what we talked about going back to what we talked about going back to what we talked about before and you know that that kind of before and you know that that kind of before and you know that that kind of approach can give the people a chance to approach can give the people a chance to approach can give the people a chance to 100% 100% I mean look at what Dubai has 100% 100% I mean look at what Dubai has 100% 100% I mean look at what Dubai has accomplished with you know Nomads in the accomplished with you know Nomads in the accomplished with you know Nomads in the desert right and that's become a major desert right and that's become a major desert right and that's become a major uh it's a tourist destination Gaza could uh it's a tourist destination Gaza could uh it's a tourist destination Gaza could have been a tourist have been a tourist have been a tourist destination Take Me Through The Saga of destination Take Me Through The Saga of destination Take Me Through The Saga of University University University presidents testifying on this topic on presidents testifying on this topic on presidents testifying on this topic on the topic of uh protests on college the topic of uh protests on college the topic of uh protests on college campuses protest that call for the campuses protest that call for the campuses protest that call for the genocide of Jewish people and the genocide of Jewish people and the genocide of Jewish people and the University University University presidents uh maybe you can describe it presidents uh maybe you can describe it presidents uh maybe you can describe it more precisely but they fail more precisely but they fail more precisely but they fail to

to to denounce the calls for denounce the calls for denounce the calls for genocide so it begins on October 8th genocide so it begins on October 8th genocide so it begins on October 8th probably uh probably uh probably uh and you know you can do a compare and and you know you can do a compare and and you know you can do a compare and contrast with how Dartmouth managed uh contrast with how Dartmouth managed uh contrast with how Dartmouth managed uh the events of October 7th and the the events of October 7th and the the events of October 7th and the aftermath and how Harvard aftermath and how Harvard aftermath and how Harvard did and on October 8th or shortly did and on October 8th or shortly did and on October 8th or shortly thereafter uh you know the Dartmouth thereafter uh you know the Dartmouth thereafter uh you know the Dartmouth president who had been in her job for president who had been in her job for president who had been in her job for precisely the same number of months that precisely the same number of months that precisely the same number of months that the Harvard president had been in her the Harvard president had been in her the Harvard president had been in her job the first thing she did is she got job the first thing she did is she got job the first thing she did is she got the most important professors of Middle the most important professors of Middle the most important professors of Middle East studies who were Arab and who were East studies who were Arab and who were East studies who were Arab and who were Jews uh and they convened them and held Jews uh and they convened them and held Jews uh and they convened them and held a you know an open session Q&A for a you know an open session Q&A for a you know an open session Q&A for students to talk about what's going on students to talk about what's going on students to talk about what's going on in the Middle East and began an in the Middle East and began an in the Middle East and began an opportunity for common understanding opportunity for common understanding opportunity for common understanding among the student body and Dartmouth has among the student body and Dartmouth has among the student body and Dartmouth has been a relatively benign environment on been a relatively benign environment on been a relatively benign environment on this issue uh and students are able to this issue uh and students are able to this issue uh and students are able to do work and there aren't disruptive do work and there aren't disruptive do work and there aren't disruptive protests with people with bullhorns protests with people with bullhorns protests with people with bullhorns walking into classrooms interfering with walking into classrooms interfering with walking into classrooms interfering with you know people pay today $882,000 a you know people pay today $882,000 a you know people pay today $882,000 a year which itself is crazy to go to year which itself is crazy to go to year which itself is crazy to go to Harvard but imagine your family borrows Harvard but imagine your family borrows Harvard but imagine your family borrows the money or you borrow the money as a the money or you borrow the money as a the money or you borrow the money as a student and your learning is disrupted student and your learning is disrupted student and your learning is disrupted by constant protest and the university by constant protest and the university by constant protest and the university does nothing you know when George Floyd does nothing you know when George Floyd does nothing you know when George Floyd died you know the Harvard president died you know the Harvard president died you know the Harvard president wrote a very uh strong letter denouncing wrote a very uh strong letter denouncing wrote a very uh strong letter denouncing what had taken place and you know

what had taken place and you know what had taken place and you know calling this an important moment in calling this an important moment in calling this an important moment in American history and uh took it American history and uh took it American history and uh took it incredibly seriously her first letter incredibly seriously her first letter incredibly seriously her first letter about October 7th was not that let's put about October 7th was not that let's put about October 7th was not that let's put it that way and then her second letter it that way and then her second letter it that way and then her second letter was not that and then ultimately you was not that and then ultimately you was not that and then ultimately you know she was sort of forced by the board know she was sort of forced by the board know she was sort of forced by the board or the pressure to make a more public or the pressure to make a more public or the pressure to make a more public statement U but it was clear that it was statement U but it was clear that it was statement U but it was clear that it was hard for her to come to an understanding hard for her to come to an understanding hard for her to come to an understanding of uh of this terrorist act and then the of uh of this terrorist act and then the of uh of this terrorist act and then the protest erupted on campus and they protest erupted on campus and they protest erupted on campus and they started out recently benign uh and then started out recently benign uh and then started out recently benign uh and then the protesters got more and more the protesters got more and more the protesters got more and more aggressive in terms of violating aggressive in terms of violating aggressive in terms of violating University rules on things like bullying University rules on things like bullying University rules on things like bullying and the university did nothing and that and the university did nothing and that and the university did nothing and that obviously for the Jewish students the obviously for the Jewish students the obviously for the Jewish students the Israeli students the Israeli faculty Israeli students the Israeli faculty Israeli students the Israeli faculty Jewish faculty created an incredibly Jewish faculty created an incredibly Jewish faculty created an incredibly uncomfortable environment and the uncomfortable environment and the uncomfortable environment and the president seemed indifferent and you president seemed indifferent and you president seemed indifferent and you know I went up to campus and I met with know I went up to campus and I met with know I went up to campus and I met with hundreds of students in small groups and hundreds of students in small groups and hundreds of students in small groups and larger groups and they're like Bill why larger groups and they're like Bill why larger groups and they're like Bill why is why is the president doing nothing is why is the president doing nothing is why is the president doing nothing why is the administration doing nothing why is the administration doing nothing why is the administration doing nothing and that was really the beginning and and that was really the beginning and and that was really the beginning and that you know I reached out to the that you know I reached out to the that you know I reached out to the president reached out to the the board president reached out to the the board president reached out to the the board of Harvard I said look this thing is of Harvard I said look this thing is of Harvard I said look this thing is heading the wrong direction and you need heading the wrong direction and you need heading the wrong direction and you need to fix it and I have some ideas love to to fix it and I have some ideas love to to fix it and I have some ideas love to share and uh I got the Heisman as they share and uh I got the Heisman as they share and uh I got the Heisman as they say you know they just kept pushing off say you know they just kept pushing off say you know they just kept pushing off the opportunity for me to meet with the the opportunity for me to meet with the the opportunity for me to meet with the president and um meet with the

president and um meet with the president and um meet with the board and at a certain point in time I board and at a certain point in time I board and at a certain point in time I pushed you know I'm kind of a activist pushed you know I'm kind of a activist pushed you know I'm kind of a activist when he pushed me it reminded me of you when he pushed me it reminded me of you when he pushed me it reminded me of you know like early days of activism where I know like early days of activism where I know like early days of activism where I couldn't get the CEO of Wendy's to to couldn't get the CEO of Wendy's to to couldn't get the CEO of Wendy's to to return my call I couldn't get the CEO of return my call I couldn't get the CEO of return my call I couldn't get the CEO of CEO of Harvard you know to take a CEO of Harvard you know to take a CEO of Harvard you know to take a meeting uh and then finally I spoke to meeting uh and then finally I spoke to meeting uh and then finally I spoke to the chairman of the board Woman by the the chairman of the board Woman by the the chairman of the board Woman by the name of Penny pritzer who I you know name of Penny pritzer who I you know name of Penny pritzer who I you know knew from on a business school board knew from on a business school board knew from on a business school board with her and it was as I describ one of with her and it was as I describ one of with her and it was as I describ one of the more disappointing conversations of the more disappointing conversations of the more disappointing conversations of my life and it did not seem she seemed a my life and it did not seem she seemed a my life and it did not seem she seemed a bit like uh if you will deer in the bit like uh if you will deer in the bit like uh if you will deer in the headlights they they couldn't do this headlights they they couldn't do this headlights they they couldn't do this they couldn't do that um the law was they couldn't do that um the law was they couldn't do that um the law was preventing them from doing various preventing them from doing various preventing them from doing various things and that led to my first letter things and that led to my first letter things and that led to my first letter to the university and I sort of ended to the university and I sort of ended to the university and I sort of ended the letter uh you know sort of giving the letter uh you know sort of giving the letter uh you know sort of giving this president of Harvard had darare to this president of Harvard had darare to this president of Harvard had darare to be great speech this is your opportunity be great speech this is your opportunity be great speech this is your opportunity you know you can fix you know you can fix you know you can fix this uh this could be your this uh this could be your this uh this could be your legacy and I sent it to the I emailed it legacy and I sent it to the I emailed it legacy and I sent it to the I emailed it to the president and the board members I to the president and the board members I to the president and the board members I whose email addresses I had I posted it whose email addresses I had I posted it whose email addresses I had I posted it on Twitter and I got no response no on Twitter and I got no response no on Twitter and I got no response no acknowledgement nothing and in fact the acknowledgement nothing and in fact the acknowledgement nothing and in fact the open dialogue I had uh with a couple of open dialogue I had uh with a couple of open dialogue I had uh with a couple of people on the board basically got shut people on the board basically got shut people on the board basically got shut down after that and that led to letter down after that and that led to letter down after that and that led to letter number number number two and then ult and then when the uh two and then ult and then when the uh two and then ult and then when the uh Congress led by leis Congress led by leis Congress led by leis stonic uh announced an investigation of stonic uh announced an investigation of stonic uh announced an investigation of anti-Semitism on campus and concern anti-Semitism on campus and concern anti-Semitism on campus and concern about uh you know violations of law the

about uh you know violations of law the about uh you know violations of law the president was called to testify along president was called to testify along president was called to testify along with two other you know the president of with two other you know the president of with two other you know the president of MIT um you know the President of MIT um you know the President of MIT um you know the President of University of Pennsylvania who were University of Pennsylvania who were University of Pennsylvania who were having similar issues on campus I having similar issues on campus I having similar issues on campus I reached out to the president of Harvard reached out to the president of Harvard reached out to the president of Harvard and said well one the Israeli government and said well one the Israeli government and said well one the Israeli government had gotten in touch and offered the had gotten in touch and offered the had gotten in touch and offered the opportunity uh for me to see the Hamas opportunity uh for me to see the Hamas opportunity uh for me to see the Hamas if you will GoPro film and I said you if you will GoPro film and I said you if you will GoPro film and I said you know what I'd love to show it at Harvard know what I'd love to show it at Harvard know what I'd love to show it at Harvard and they thought that would be great and they thought that would be great and they thought that would be great idea and so I partnered with the head of idea and so I partnered with the head of idea and so I partnered with the head of Harvard kabad uh guy named Rabbi hershy Harvard kabad uh guy named Rabbi hershy Harvard kabad uh guy named Rabbi hershy and uh we were putting the film up on and uh we were putting the film up on and uh we were putting the film up on campus and I thought you know if the campus and I thought you know if the campus and I thought you know if the president were to see this would it president were to see this would it president were to see this would it would give her a lot of perspective on would give her a lot of perspective on would give her a lot of perspective on what happened and she should see it what happened and she should see it what happened and she should see it before her before her before her testimony and so I reached out to her or testimony and so I reached out to her or testimony and so I reached out to her or actually Rabbi uh uh Hershey did and uh actually Rabbi uh uh Hershey did and uh actually Rabbi uh uh Hershey did and uh he was told she'd be out of town and he was told she'd be out of town and he was told she'd be out of town and couldn't see it um and then I reached couldn't see it um and then I reached couldn't see it um and then I reached out to her again said look I'll I'll out to her again said look I'll I'll out to her again said look I'll I'll facilitate your attendance in the in the facilitate your attendance in the in the facilitate your attendance in the in the Congress you know come see the film I'll Congress you know come see the film I'll Congress you know come see the film I'll fly you down that was rejected and then fly you down that was rejected and then fly you down that was rejected and then she she she testified and I watched you know a good testified and I watched you know a good testified and I watched you know a good percentage 80% of the testimony of all percentage 80% of the testimony of all percentage 80% of the testimony of all three presidents and it was an three presidents and it was an three presidents and it was an embarrassment to the country embarrassment to the country embarrassment to the country embarrassment to the universities you embarrassment to the universities you embarrassment to the universities you know they were evasive they didn't know they were evasive they didn't know they were evasive they didn't answer questions they were rude they answer questions they were rude they answer questions they were rude they smirked you know they looked you know smirked you know they looked you know smirked you know they looked you know very were disrespectful to to our very were disrespectful to to our very were disrespectful to to our Congress and uh and then of course there Congress and uh and then of course there Congress and uh and then of course there was that several minutes where finally was that several minutes where finally was that several minutes where finally at least toonic was not getting answers at least toonic was not getting answers at least toonic was not getting answers to her questions and she said you know

to her questions and she said you know to her questions and she said you know let me be you know kind of clear what if let me be you know kind of clear what if let me be you know kind of clear what if protesters were calling for genocide for protesters were calling for genocide for protesters were calling for genocide for the Jews does that violate your rules on the Jews does that violate your rules on the Jews does that violate your rules on bullying and harassment and the three of bullying and harassment and the three of bullying and harassment and the three of them basically gave the same answer you them basically gave the same answer you them basically gave the same answer you know it depends on the context and not know it depends on the context and not know it depends on the context and not until they actually executed it on the until they actually executed it on the until they actually executed it on the genocide does the University have the genocide does the University have the genocide does the University have the right to intervene and the the thing right to intervene and the the thing right to intervene and the the thing that perhaps bothered me the most was that perhaps bothered me the most was that perhaps bothered me the most was the incredible hypocrisy you know the incredible hypocrisy you know the incredible hypocrisy you know Harvard was you know each of these Harvard was you know each of these Harvard was you know each of these universities are ranked by this entity universities are ranked by this entity universities are ranked by this entity called fire which is a nonprofit that called fire which is a nonprofit that called fire which is a nonprofit that focuses on free speech on campus and focuses on free speech on campus and focuses on free speech on campus and Harvard uh has been in the bottom Harvard uh has been in the bottom Harvard uh has been in the bottom quartile for The Last 5 Years and quartile for The Last 5 Years and quartile for The Last 5 Years and dropped to last before October 7th out dropped to last before October 7th out dropped to last before October 7th out of like 250 I should mention briefly of like 250 I should mention briefly of like 250 I should mention briefly that I've interview on this podcast the that I've interview on this podcast the that I've interview on this podcast the founder of fire and the current head of founder of fire and the current head of founder of fire and the current head of fire we discussed this at length um fire we discussed this at length um fire we discussed this at length um including running for the board of including running for the board of including running for the board of Harvard and the whole procedure of all Harvard and the whole procedure of all Harvard and the whole procedure of all that it's it's quite a fascinating that it's it's quite a fascinating that it's it's quite a fascinating investigation of free speech who for investigation of free speech who for investigation of free speech who for people who care about Free Speech people who care about Free Speech people who care about Free Speech absolutism that's a good episode to absolutism that's a good episode to absolutism that's a good episode to listen to Because those folks kind of listen to Because those folks kind of listen to Because those folks kind of fight for this idea it's a it's a fight for this idea it's a it's a fight for this idea it's a it's a difficult idea actually to internalize difficult idea actually to internalize difficult idea actually to internalize what does free speech in college what does free speech in college what does free speech in college campuses look like Harvard has become a campuses look like Harvard has become a campuses look like Harvard has become a place where free speech is not tolerated place where free speech is not tolerated place where free speech is not tolerated on campus or at least free speech that's on campus or at least free speech that's on campus or at least free speech that's not part of the accepted dialogue or you not part of the accepted dialogue or you not part of the accepted dialogue or you know this whole notion of speech codes know this whole notion of speech codes know this whole notion of speech codes and microaggressions really emerged on and microaggressions really emerged on and microaggressions really emerged on the elite you know the Harvard Yale uh

the elite you know the Harvard Yale uh the elite you know the Harvard Yale uh campuses of the world and uh you know campuses of the world and uh you know campuses of the world and uh you know the president of Harvard's uh then the president of Harvard's uh then the president of Harvard's uh then president of Harvard's explanation for president of Harvard's explanation for president of Harvard's explanation for why you know you could call for the why you know you could call for the why you know you could call for the genocide of the Jewish people on campus genocide of the Jewish people on campus genocide of the Jewish people on campus was Harvard's commitment to free was Harvard's commitment to free was Harvard's commitment to free expression expression expression and you know one of the more and you know one of the more and you know one of the more hypocritical statements of all time and hypocritical statements of all time and hypocritical statements of all time and you really can't have it both ways you really can't have it both ways you really can't have it both ways either Harvard has to be a place where either Harvard has to be a place where either Harvard has to be a place where it's a free speech she she basically it's a free speech she she basically it's a free speech she she basically said we're a free speech absolutist said we're a free speech absolutist said we're a free speech absolutist place which is why we have to allow this place which is why we have to allow this place which is why we have to allow this and Harvard could not be further from and Harvard could not be further from and Harvard could not be further from that and so that was a a big part of it that and so that was a a big part of it that and so that was a a big part of it and I I I uh I was in the uh Barber and I I I uh I was in the uh Barber and I I I uh I was in the uh Barber chair if you will getting haircut and uh chair if you will getting haircut and uh chair if you will getting haircut and uh I had a guy on my team send me the three I had a guy on my team send me the three I had a guy on my team send me the three minute section I said cut that line of minute section I said cut that line of minute section I said cut that line of questioning and I put out a a little questioning and I put out a a little questioning and I put out a a little tweet on that and call my greatest hits tweet on that and call my greatest hits tweet on that and call my greatest hits of of of of posts got something like 110 of of of of posts got something like 110 of of of of posts got something like 110 million views and and you know everyone million views and and you know everyone million views and and you know everyone looked at this and said what is wrong looked at this and said what is wrong looked at this and said what is wrong with you know University with you know University with you know University campuses and and their leadership and campuses and and their leadership and campuses and and their leadership and their governance by the way you know in their governance by the way you know in their governance by the way you know in a way this whole conversation's been a way this whole conversation's been a way this whole conversation's been about governance Harvard has a about governance Harvard has a about governance Harvard has a disastrous governance structure which is disastrous governance structure which is disastrous governance structure which is why we have the problem we have and just why we have the problem we have and just why we have the problem we have and just to linger on the the to linger on the the to linger on the the testimony you mention you know smirks testimony you mention you know smirks testimony you mention you know smirks and this kind of stuff and you mention and this kind of stuff and you mention and this kind of stuff and you mention dare to be great I myself I'm kind of a dare to be great I myself I'm kind of a dare to be great I myself I'm kind of a sucker for great leadership and those sucker for great leadership and those sucker for great leadership and those moments you mentioned Churchill or so on moments you mentioned Churchill or so on moments you mentioned Churchill or so on even great speeches people talk down on

even great speeches people talk down on even great speeches people talk down on speeches like it's uh maybe just words speeches like it's uh maybe just words speeches like it's uh maybe just words but I think speeches can define a but I think speeches can define a but I think speeches can define a culture and culture and culture and Define a place Define a people that can Define a place Define a people that can Define a place Define a people that can inspire and I think actually the inspire and I think actually the inspire and I think actually the testimony before Congress could have testimony before Congress could have testimony before Congress could have been an opportunity to redefine what been an opportunity to redefine what been an opportunity to redefine what Harvard is dared to be great for dared Harvard is dared to be great for dared Harvard is dared to be great for dared to be a great leader president Harvard to be a great leader president Harvard to be a great leader president Harvard had a huge opportunity because she went had a huge opportunity because she went had a huge opportunity because she went third right the first two gave the third right the first two gave the third right the first two gave the world's most disastrous answers to the world's most disastrous answers to the world's most disastrous answers to the question and she literally just copied question and she literally just copied question and she literally just copied their answer which is itself uh you know their answer which is itself uh you know their answer which is itself uh you know kind of ironic in light of ultimately kind of ironic in light of ultimately kind of ironic in light of ultimately what happened it's tough because uh what happened it's tough because uh what happened it's tough because uh you can get busy as a president as a you can get busy as a president as a you can get busy as a president as a leader and so on there's these meetings leader and so on there's these meetings leader and so on there's these meetings so you think Congress maybe you're so you think Congress maybe you're so you think Congress maybe you're smirking at the Ridiculousness of the smirking at the Ridiculousness of the smirking at the Ridiculousness of the meeting you need to meeting you need to meeting you need to remember that many of these are remember that many of these are remember that many of these are opportunities to like give a speech of a opportunities to like give a speech of a opportunities to like give a speech of a Life Time sure like that if there is Life Time sure like that if there is Life Time sure like that if there is principles which you want to see a an principles which you want to see a an principles which you want to see a an institution become and embody in the institution become and embody in the institution become and embody in the next several decades there's next several decades there's next several decades there's opportunities to do that and you as a opportunities to do that and you as a opportunities to do that and you as a great leader also need to have a sense great leader also need to have a sense great leader also need to have a sense of when is the opportunity to do that of when is the opportunity to do that of when is the opportunity to do that and October 7th really woke up the and October 7th really woke up the and October 7th really woke up the world uh on all sides honestly like world uh on all sides honestly like world uh on all sides honestly like there is serious issue going on here and there is serious issue going on here and there is serious issue going on here and then the protests woke up the university then the protests woke up the university then the protests woke up the university there's a serious issue going on here

there's a serious issue going on here there's a serious issue going on here it's an opportunity to speak on free it's an opportunity to speak on free it's an opportunity to speak on free speech and on genocide speech and on genocide speech and on genocide both both both yes do you see the criticism that you yes do you see the criticism that you yes do you see the criticism that you you are a billionaire you are a billionaire you are a billionaire donor and you sort of used your power donor and you sort of used your power donor and you sort of used your power and financial influence unfairly to and financial influence unfairly to and financial influence unfairly to affect the governing structure of affect the governing structure of affect the governing structure of Harvard in this case first of all I I Harvard in this case first of all I I Harvard in this case first of all I I never threatened to use Financial other never threatened to use Financial other never threatened to use Financial other resources the only thing I did here was resources the only thing I did here was resources the only thing I did here was wrote I wrote public letters I spoke wrote I wrote public letters I spoke wrote I wrote public letters I spoke privately to a couple members of the privately to a couple members of the privately to a couple members of the board I spoke for 45 minutes to the board I spoke for 45 minutes to the board I spoke for 45 minutes to the chairman none of those conversations chairman none of those conversations chairman none of those conversations were effective or went anywhere as far were effective or went anywhere as far were effective or went anywhere as far as I could tell I think my public uh as I could tell I think my public uh as I could tell I think my public uh letters and and then some of the posts I letters and and then some of the posts I letters and and then some of the posts I did twet yeah uh and that you know that did twet yeah uh and that you know that did twet yeah uh and that you know that little uh 3 minute uh video excerpt had little uh 3 minute uh video excerpt had little uh 3 minute uh video excerpt had it had an it had an it had an impact um but it wasn't about I mean you impact um but it wasn't about I mean you impact um but it wasn't about I mean you can criticize me for being a billionaire can criticize me for being a billionaire can criticize me for being a billionaire but that had you know it was really the but that had you know it was really the but that had you know it was really the words uh it's a bit like again going words uh it's a bit like again going words uh it's a bit like again going back to the corporate analogy it's not back to the corporate analogy it's not back to the corporate analogy it's not the fact that you own 5% of the company the fact that you own 5% of the company the fact that you own 5% of the company that causes people to vote in your favor that causes people to vote in your favor that causes people to vote in your favor it's the fact that your ideas are right it's the fact that your ideas are right it's the fact that your ideas are right and I think you know I was disappointed and I think you know I was disappointed and I think you know I was disappointed after the Cong pressional testimony the after the Cong pressional testimony the after the Cong pressional testimony the board of Harvard said that they were board of Harvard said that they were board of Harvard said that they were 100% behind unanimously 100% behind 100% behind unanimously 100% behind 100% behind unanimously 100% behind president gay and so clearly I was president gay and so clearly I was president gay and so clearly I was ineffective and ultimately what took her ineffective and ultimately what took her ineffective and ultimately what took her down was uh other I would say activists down was uh other I would say activists down was uh other I would say activists who identified issues with academic who identified issues with academic who identified issues with academic Integrity uh and then she lost the Integrity uh and then she lost the Integrity uh and then she lost the confidence of the faculty and once that

confidence of the faculty and once that confidence of the faculty and once that happens it's hard to stay uh and I happens it's hard to stay uh and I happens it's hard to stay uh and I wanted her to be fired basically or be wanted her to be fired basically or be wanted her to be fired basically or be forced to resign because of failures of forced to resign because of failures of forced to resign because of failures of leadership because would have sent a leadership because would have sent a leadership because would have sent a message about the importance of message about the importance of message about the importance of leadership you know failure to stop a leadership you know failure to stop a leadership you know failure to stop a emergence of anti-Semitism on campus and emergence of anti-Semitism on campus and emergence of anti-Semitism on campus and you know there's some news today the you know there's some news today the you know there's some news today the protests are getting worse is there some protests are getting worse is there some protests are getting worse is there some tension between free speech on college tension between free speech on college tension between free speech on college campuses and disciplining students for campuses and disciplining students for campuses and disciplining students for calls of genocide yes there's certainly calls of genocide yes there's certainly calls of genocide yes there's certainly a tension and I think first of all um I a tension and I think first of all um I a tension and I think first of all um I think free speech is incredibly think free speech is incredibly think free speech is incredibly important and I'm on the side I'm a lot important and I'm on the side I'm a lot important and I'm on the side I'm a lot closer to absolutism on Free Speech than closer to absolutism on Free Speech than closer to absolutism on Free Speech than otherwise the issue I had was the otherwise the issue I had was the otherwise the issue I had was the hypocrisy right they were restricting hypocrisy right they were restricting hypocrisy right they were restricting other kinds of speech uh on campus other kinds of speech uh on campus other kinds of speech uh on campus principally conservative speech principally conservative speech principally conservative speech conservative views um so it wasn't a conservative views um so it wasn't a conservative views um so it wasn't a free speech absolutist uh campus and the free speech absolutist uh campus and the free speech absolutist uh campus and the protests were actually quite threatening protests were actually quite threatening protests were actually quite threatening to students and there are limits to even to students and there are limits to even to students and there are limits to even absolutist free speech and they begin absolutist free speech and they begin absolutist free speech and they begin where people feel you know intimidation where people feel you know intimidation where people feel you know intimidation harassment and you know threat to bodily harassment and you know threat to bodily harassment and you know threat to bodily harm Etc you know that kind of speech is harm Etc you know that kind of speech is harm Etc you know that kind of speech is generally uh again it's pretty technical generally uh again it's pretty technical generally uh again it's pretty technical uh but is people feel like they're an uh but is people feel like they're an uh but is people feel like they're an imminent harm by virtue of the protest imminent harm by virtue of the protest imminent harm by virtue of the protest that speech is at risk of not meeting that speech is at risk of not meeting that speech is at risk of not meeting the standards for Free Speech but the standards for Free Speech but the standards for Free Speech but Harvard is a private Harvard is a private Harvard is a private Corporation and as a private Corporation Corporation and as a private Corporation Corporation and as a private Corporation they can put on what restrictions they they can put on what restrictions they they can put on what restrictions they want and Harvard had introduced only a want and Harvard had introduced only a want and Harvard had introduced only a few months before bullying and few months before bullying and few months before bullying and harassment policies and that's why harassment policies and that's why harassment policies and that's why representative stefanic focused on does

representative stefanic focused on does representative stefanic focused on does this it's not like she said this calling this it's not like she said this calling this it's not like she said this calling for genocide against the Jews violate for genocide against the Jews violate for genocide against the Jews violate your free speech policy she says it's your free speech policy she says it's your free speech policy she says it's calling for genocide against the Jews calling for genocide against the Jews calling for genocide against the Jews violate your policies on bullying her violate your policies on bullying her violate your policies on bullying her harassment and I think everyone looked harassment and I think everyone looked harassment and I think everyone looked at this when they said it depends on the at this when they said it depends on the at this when they said it depends on the context and they said look if you context and they said look if you context and they said look if you replace Jews with some other ethnic replace Jews with some other ethnic replace Jews with some other ethnic group students have been who've used the group students have been who've used the group students have been who've used the n-word for example have been thrown off n-word for example have been thrown off n-word for example have been thrown off campus were suspended you know students campus were suspended you know students campus were suspended you know students who've uh you know hate speech directed who've uh you know hate speech directed who've uh you know hate speech directed at uh lgbtq people has led to at uh lgbtq people has led to at uh lgbtq people has led to disciplinary action but you know disciplinary action but you know disciplinary action but you know attacking spitting on Jewish students or attacking spitting on Jewish students or attacking spitting on Jewish students or you know kind of roughing them up a bit you know kind of roughing them up a bit you know kind of roughing them up a bit uh seemed like you know we calling for uh seemed like you know we calling for uh seemed like you know we calling for their elimination didn't seem to violate their elimination didn't seem to violate their elimination didn't seem to violate the policiy so it's uh you know look I the policiy so it's uh you know look I the policiy so it's uh you know look I think a university should be a place think a university should be a place think a university should be a place where you have broad views and open where you have broad views and open where you have broad views and open viewpoints and Broad viewpoints and Broad viewpoints and Broad discussion um but it should also be a discussion um but it should also be a discussion um but it should also be a place where students don't feel place where students don't feel place where students don't feel threatened going to class where their threatened going to class where their threatened going to class where their learning is not interrupted when final learning is not interrupted when final learning is not interrupted when final exams are not interrupted with uh by you exams are not interrupted with uh by you exams are not interrupted with uh by you know people coming in and with loud know people coming in and with loud know people coming in and with loud protest students asked me when I went up protest students asked me when I went up protest students asked me when I went up there what would you do if you were there what would you do if you were there what would you do if you were Harvard president I said and this was Harvard president I said and this was Harvard president I said and this was before I knew what was happening on the before I knew what was happening on the before I knew what was happening on the depart with campus I said I would I depart with campus I said I would I depart with campus I said I would I convene everyone together this is convene everyone together this is convene everyone together this is Harvard we have access to the best Minds Harvard we have access to the best Minds Harvard we have access to the best Minds in the world let's have a better in the world let's have a better in the world let's have a better understanding of the history let's understanding of the history let's understanding of the history let's understand the backdrop let's focus on understand the backdrop let's focus on understand the backdrop let's focus on Solutions let's bring Arab and Jewish Solutions let's bring Arab and Jewish Solutions let's bring Arab and Jewish and Israeli students together let's form and Israeli students together let's form and Israeli students together let's form groups to create communication that's groups to create communication that's groups to create communication that's how you solve this kind of problem and how you solve this kind of problem and how you solve this kind of problem and none of that stuff has been done it's none of that stuff has been done it's none of that stuff has been done it's not that hard do you think this reveals

not that hard do you think this reveals not that hard do you think this reveals a deeper uh a deeper uh a deeper uh problem in terms of ideology in the problem in terms of ideology in the problem in terms of ideology in the governance of har governance of har governance of har in in in the maybe the culture the maybe the culture the maybe the culture Harvard yes so on governance the Harvard yes so on governance the Harvard yes so on governance the governance structure is a disaster so governance structure is a disaster so governance structure is a disaster so the way it works today is Harvard has the way it works today is Harvard has the way it works today is Harvard has two principal boards there's the board two principal boards there's the board two principal boards there's the board of the corporation the so-called fellows of the corporation the so-called fellows of the corporation the so-called fellows of Harvard it's a board of uh I think 12 of Harvard it's a board of uh I think 12 of Harvard it's a board of uh I think 12 independent directors and the president independent directors and the president independent directors and the president uh there's no shareholder vote there's uh there's no shareholder vote there's uh there's no shareholder vote there's no proxy system it's really a no proxy system it's really a no proxy system it's really a self-perpetuating board that elects it self-perpetuating board that elects it self-perpetuating board that elects it effectively elects its own members so effectively elects its own members so effectively elects its own members so there's you know once it becomes once there's you know once it becomes once there's you know once it becomes once the balance tips politically one way or the balance tips politically one way or the balance tips politically one way or another they can you know it can be kept another they can you know it can be kept another they can you know it can be kept that way forever there's no kind of that way forever there's no kind of that way forever there's no kind of rebalancing system you know if a US rebalancing system you know if a US rebalancing system you know if a US Corporation goes off the rails so to Corporation goes off the rails so to Corporation goes off the rails so to speak the shareholders can to get speak the shareholders can to get speak the shareholders can to get together and vote off the directors together and vote off the directors together and vote off the directors there's no ability to vote off the there's no ability to vote off the there's no ability to vote off the directors then there's the board of directors then there's the board of directors then there's the board of overseers which is I think 32 uh overseers which is I think 32 uh overseers which is I think 32 uh directors and there a few years ago if directors and there a few years ago if directors and there a few years ago if you could put together 600 signatures you could put together 600 signatures you could put together 600 signatures you could run for that board and put up you could run for that board and put up you could run for that board and put up a bunch of candidates and about five or a bunch of candidates and about five or a bunch of candidates and about five or six get elected each year six get elected each year six get elected each year and uh a group did exactly that and it and uh a group did exactly that and it and uh a group did exactly that and it was an oil and gas kind of disinvestment was an oil and gas kind of disinvestment was an oil and gas kind of disinvestment uh group uh they got the signatures a uh group uh they got the signatures a uh group uh they got the signatures a couple of them got elected and uh couple of them got elected and uh couple of them got elected and uh Harvard then changed the rules and they Harvard then changed the rules and they Harvard then changed the rules and they said now we need 3,200 said now we need 3,200 said now we need 3,200 signatures and uh and by the way if if signatures and uh and by the way if if signatures and uh and by the way if if there are these dissident directors on there are these dissident directors on there are these dissident directors on the board we're only going to allow the board we're only going to allow the board we're only going to allow we're going to cap them at five so if

we're going to cap them at five so if we're going to cap them at five so if three were elected in the oil and gas three were elected in the oil and gas three were elected in the oil and gas thing now there are only two seats thing now there are only two seats thing now there are only two seats available MH and then a group of former available MH and then a group of former available MH and then a group of former students kind of younger alums one of students kind of younger alums one of students kind of younger alums one of whom I knew approached me and said look whom I knew approached me and said look whom I knew approached me and said look Bill we should we should run for the Bill we should we should run for the Bill we should we should run for the board and they decided this pretty late board and they decided this pretty late board and they decided this pretty late uh only a few weeks before the uh only a few weeks before the uh only a few weeks before the signatures were due and we love your signatures were due and we love your signatures were due and we love your support you know I took a look at their support you know I took a look at their support you know I took a look at their platform I thought it looked great I platform I thought it looked great I platform I thought it looked great I said look happy to support and I posted said look happy to support and I posted said look happy to support and I posted about them you know did a zoom with them about them you know did a zoom with them about them you know did a zoom with them and they got thousands of signatures you and they got thousands of signatures you and they got thousands of signatures you know collectively the four got whatever know collectively the four got whatever know collectively the four got whatever 12,000 signatures or something like this 12,000 signatures or something like this 12,000 signatures or something like this and they missed by about 10% uh the and they missed by about 10% uh the and they missed by about 10% uh the threshold and what did Harvard do in the threshold and what did Harvard do in the threshold and what did Harvard do in the middle the election they made it very middle the election they made it very middle the election they made it very very difficult to sign up you know for a very difficult to sign up you know for a very difficult to sign up you know for a vote and it just makes them look vote and it just makes them look vote and it just makes them look terrible and they've got now thousands terrible and they've got now thousands terrible and they've got now thousands of alums uh upset that and again this of alums uh upset that and again this of alums uh upset that and again this wasn't an election it was this was just wasn't an election it was this was just wasn't an election it was this was just to put the names on the Slate so the to put the names on the Slate so the to put the names on the Slate so the only candidates on the Slate are the only candidates on the Slate are the only candidates on the Slate are the ones selected by the you know the ones selected by the you know the ones selected by the you know the existing members and so it's it's existing members and so it's it's existing members and so it's it's uh businesses fail because of governance uh businesses fail because of governance uh businesses fail because of governance failures universities fail because of failures universities fail because of failures universities fail because of governance failures it's not really the governance failures it's not really the governance failures it's not really the president's fault because the job of the president's fault because the job of the president's fault because the job of the board is to fire hire and fire the board is to fire hire and fire the board is to fire hire and fire the president and help guide the institution president and help guide the institution president and help guide the institution academically otherwise so that's academically otherwise so that's academically otherwise so that's governance an governance an governance an ideology I was like how can this be ideology I was like how can this be ideology I was like how can this be October 7th the event that woke me up October 7th the event that woke me up October 7th the event that woke me up was 30 student organizations came out was 30 student organizations came out was 30 student organizations came out with a public letter on October 8th that with a public letter on October 8th that with a public letter on October 8th that literally the morning after this letter literally the morning after this letter literally the morning after this letter was created and said Israel is solely

was created and said Israel is solely was created and said Israel is solely responsible for hamas's violent Acts responsible for hamas's violent Acts responsible for hamas's violent Acts again Israel had not even mounted a again Israel had not even mounted a again Israel had not even mounted a defense at this point and there were defense at this point and there were defense at this point and there were still terrorists running around in the still terrorists running around in the still terrorists running around in the southern part of southern part of southern part of Israel um and I'm like H Harvard Israel um and I'm like H Harvard Israel um and I'm like H Harvard students you know 34 Harvard student students you know 34 Harvard student students you know 34 Harvard student organizations signed this letter and I'm organizations signed this letter and I'm organizations signed this letter and I'm like what is going on you know WTF right like what is going on you know WTF right like what is going on you know WTF right and uh that's when I went up on campus and uh that's when I went up on campus and uh that's when I went up on campus and I started talking to the faculty and and I started talking to the faculty and and I started talking to the faculty and that's where I started hearing about that's where I started hearing about that's where I started hearing about actually bill it's it's this Dei actually bill it's it's this Dei actually bill it's it's this Dei ideology I'm like ideology I'm like ideology I'm like what like diversity Equity inclusion you what like diversity Equity inclusion you what like diversity Equity inclusion you know you know obviously I'm familiar know you know obviously I'm familiar know you know obviously I'm familiar with these words and and you know I see with these words and and you know I see with these words and and you know I see this in the corporate context they say this in the corporate context they say this in the corporate context they say yeah and they started talking to me yeah and they started talking to me yeah and they started talking to me about this oppressor about this oppressor about this oppressor oppressed uh framework uh which is oppressed uh framework uh which is oppressed uh framework uh which is effectively taught at on campus and effectively taught at on campus and effectively taught at on campus and represents the backdrop for many of the represents the backdrop for many of the represents the backdrop for many of the courses that are offered and and in the courses that are offered and and in the courses that are offered and and in the various uh some of the studies and other various uh some of the studies and other various uh some of the studies and other degree offerings I'm like I had not even degree offerings I'm like I had not even degree offerings I'm like I had not even heard of this and you know I'm pretty heard of this and you know I'm pretty heard of this and you know I'm pretty aware person uh but I was completely aware person uh but I was completely aware person uh but I was completely unaware and and basically they're like unaware and and basically they're like unaware and and basically they're like look Israel is deemed an look Israel is deemed an look Israel is deemed an oppressor and the Palestinians are oppressor and the Palestinians are oppressor and the Palestinians are deemed the oppressed and you take the deemed the oppressed and you take the deemed the oppressed and you take the side of the the oppressed and any acts side of the the oppressed and any acts side of the the oppressed and any acts of the oppressed to dislodge the of the oppressed to dislodge the of the oppressed to dislodge the oppressor regardless of how vile or oppressor regardless of how vile or oppressor regardless of how vile or barbaric or barbaric or barbaric or okay I'm like okay this is a super okay I'm like okay this is a super okay I'm like okay this is a super dangerous ideology and so I I wrote a

dangerous ideology and so I I wrote a dangerous ideology and so I I wrote a like questioning post post about this like questioning post post about this like questioning post post about this like here's what I'm hearing you know am like here's what I'm hearing you know am like here's what I'm hearing you know am I is this right then I had someone a I is this right then I had someone a I is this right then I had someone a friend of mine sent me a Christopher friend of mine sent me a Christopher friend of mine sent me a Christopher rufo book America's cultural revolution rufo book America's cultural revolution rufo book America's cultural revolution which is sort of a sociological study of which is sort of a sociological study of which is sort of a sociological study of the origins of the Dei movement and the origins of the Dei movement and the origins of the Dei movement and critical race Theory and uh I found it critical race Theory and uh I found it critical race Theory and uh I found it actually one of the more important books actually one of the more important books actually one of the more important books I've read and uh also found it quite I've read and uh also found it quite I've read and uh also found it quite concerning and and really the it's sort concerning and and really the it's sort concerning and and really the it's sort of a ultimately Dei comes out of it a uh of a ultimately Dei comes out of it a uh of a ultimately Dei comes out of it a uh kind of a Marxist uh socialist backdrop kind of a Marxist uh socialist backdrop kind of a Marxist uh socialist backdrop way to look at the world and so I think way to look at the world and so I think way to look at the world and so I think there a lot of issues with it but it there a lot of issues with it but it there a lot of issues with it but it unfortunately it's advancing like unfortunately it's advancing like unfortunately it's advancing like ultimately ultimately ultimately concluded uh racism uh as opposed to concluded uh racism uh as opposed to concluded uh racism uh as opposed to fighting it which is what I thought it fighting it which is what I thought it fighting it which is what I thought it was ultimately about so maybe you can was ultimately about so maybe you can was ultimately about so maybe you can speak to that book a little bit so speak to that book a little bit so speak to that book a little bit so there's a history that traces back there's a history that traces back there's a history that traces back across across across decades and then that infiltrated decades and then that infiltrated decades and then that infiltrated college campuses college campuses college campuses so basically what rufo argues is that so basically what rufo argues is that so basically what rufo argues is that the Black Power movement of the 60s the Black Power movement of the 60s the Black Power movement of the 60s really failed it was a very violent really failed it was a very violent really failed it was a very violent movement and many of the protagonists movement and many of the protagonists movement and many of the protagonists ended up in jail and uh out of that ended up in jail and uh out of that ended up in jail and uh out of that movement a number of uh kind of thought movement a number of uh kind of thought movement a number of uh kind of thought leaders this guy named maruse uh and leaders this guy named maruse uh and leaders this guy named maruse uh and others built this framework kind of an others built this framework kind of an others built this framework kind of an approach said look if we're going to be approach said look if we're going to be approach said look if we're going to be successful can't be a violent movement successful can't be a violent movement successful can't be a violent movement number one number two need to infiltrate

number one number two need to infiltrate number one number two need to infiltrate if you will the universities and we need if you will the universities and we need if you will the universities and we need to uh become part of the faculty and we to uh become part of the faculty and we to uh become part of the faculty and we need to teach the students and then once need to teach the students and then once need to teach the students and then once we take over the universities with this we take over the universities with this we take over the universities with this ideology then we can go into government ideology then we can go into government ideology then we can go into government and then we can go into corporations and and then we can go into corporations and and then we can go into corporations and we can change the world so I thought we can change the world so I thought we can change the world so I thought important book and the more I dug in the important book and the more I dug in the important book and the more I dug in the more I felt there was credibility to more I felt there was credibility to more I felt there was credibility to this not just the kind of sociological this not just the kind of sociological this not just the kind of sociological uh backdrop but to what it meant on uh backdrop but to what it meant on uh backdrop but to what it meant on campus and faculty Harvard faculty were campus and faculty Harvard faculty were campus and faculty Harvard faculty were telling me that you know there's really telling me that you know there's really telling me that you know there's really is no such thing as free speech on is no such thing as free speech on is no such thing as free speech on campus and that you know there was a campus and that you know there was a campus and that you know there was a survey done I don't know a year or so survey done I don't know a year or so survey done I don't know a year or so ago the Harvard faculty and only 2% of ago the Harvard faculty and only 2% of ago the Harvard faculty and only 2% of the faculty admitted even in an the faculty admitted even in an the faculty admitted even in an anonymous survey admitted to being anonymous survey admitted to being anonymous survey admitted to being having a conservative point of view so having a conservative point of view so having a conservative point of view so we have a campus that's 98% we have a campus that's 98% we have a campus that's 98% non-conservative liberal non-conservative liberal non-conservative liberal Progressive uh that's adopted this Dei Progressive uh that's adopted this Dei Progressive uh that's adopted this Dei construct um and this and that I learned construct um and this and that I learned construct um and this and that I learned from a member of the search committee from a member of the search committee from a member of the search committee for the Harvard president uh that they for the Harvard president uh that they for the Harvard president uh that they were restricted in looking at candidates were restricted in looking at candidates were restricted in looking at candidates only those who met the Dei offices only those who met the Dei offices only those who met the Dei offices criteria and I shared this in one of my criteria and I shared this in one of my criteria and I shared this in one of my postings and I was accused of being a postings and I was accused of being a postings and I was accused of being a racist racist racist um but uh and that's someone who um but uh and that's someone who um but uh and that's someone who believes in that diversity is a very believes in that diversity is a very believes in that diversity is a very good thing for organizations and that good thing for organizations and that good thing for organizations and that Equity fairness is really important and Equity fairness is really important and Equity fairness is really important and having an inclusive culture is CR having an inclusive culture is CR having an inclusive culture is CR critical you know for functioning of

critical you know for functioning of critical you know for functioning of organization you know so here I was organization you know so here I was organization you know so here I was someone who was like okay di sounds good someone who was like okay di sounds good someone who was like okay di sounds good to me you know at least in the small D to me you know at least in the small D to me you know at least in the small D Small E uh I uh version of events but Small E uh I uh version of events but Small E uh I uh version of events but this di ideology is really problematic this di ideology is really problematic this di ideology is really problematic so what's the way to fix this in the so what's the way to fix this in the so what's the way to fix this in the next few next few next few years uh the in infiltration of Dei with years uh the in infiltration of Dei with years uh the in infiltration of Dei with the uppercase version of universities the uppercase version of universities the uppercase version of universities and the things that have troubled you and the things that have troubled you and the things that have troubled you the things you've saw at Harvard and the things you've saw at Harvard and the things you've saw at Harvard and elsewhere in the same way this was an elsewhere in the same way this was an elsewhere in the same way this was an eye openening event for me it has been eye openening event for me it has been eye openening event for me it has been for a very broad range of other people for a very broad range of other people for a very broad range of other people I've never gotten you know I mentioned I've never gotten you know I mentioned I've never gotten you know I mentioned General growth I got a lot of nice General growth I got a lot of nice General growth I got a lot of nice letters from people for making money on letters from people for making money on letters from people for making money on a stock that went up a 100 a stock that went up a 100 a stock that went up a 100 times uh but I literally get uh hundreds times uh but I literally get uh hundreds times uh but I literally get uh hundreds of emails letters texts handwritten of emails letters texts handwritten of emails letters texts handwritten letters type letters from people the letters type letters from people the letters type letters from people the ages of 25 to 85 saying bill this is so ages of 25 to 85 saying bill this is so ages of 25 to 85 saying bill this is so important thanks for speaking out on important thanks for speaking out on important thanks for speaking out on this you were saying what you know so this you were saying what you know so this you were saying what you know so many of us believe but have been afraid many of us believe but have been afraid many of us believe but have been afraid to say you know it's a I described it as to say you know it's a I described it as to say you know it's a I described it as almost a mccth esque kind of movement almost a mccth esque kind of movement almost a mccth esque kind of movement and that if you challenge the Dei and that if you challenge the Dei and that if you challenge the Dei construct people accuse you of being construct people accuse you of being construct people accuse you of being racist it's happened to me already uh racist it's happened to me already uh racist it's happened to me already uh you know I'm perhaps uh you know I'm I'm you know I'm perhaps uh you know I'm I'm you know I'm perhaps uh you know I'm I'm much less vulnerable than a university much less vulnerable than a university much less vulnerable than a university Professor who can get shouted off campus Professor who can get shouted off campus Professor who can get shouted off campus cancelled I'm I'm sort of difficult to cancelled I'm I'm sort of difficult to cancelled I'm I'm sort of difficult to cancel uh but that doesn't mean people cancel uh but that doesn't mean people cancel uh but that doesn't mean people are going to try and uh you know had are going to try and uh you know had are going to try and uh you know had I've been the victim of a couple of uh

I've been the victim of a couple of uh I've been the victim of a couple of uh interesting articles in the last few interesting articles in the last few interesting articles in the last few days or at least one in particular in days or at least one in particular in days or at least one in particular in the Washington post written by what I the Washington post written by what I the Washington post written by what I thought was a well-meaning reporter but thought was a well-meaning reporter but thought was a well-meaning reporter but it's just clear that you know I've taken it's just clear that you know I've taken it's just clear that you know I've taken on some big parts of at least the on some big parts of at least the on some big parts of at least the progressive establishment Dei I'm also a progressive establishment Dei I'm also a progressive establishment Dei I'm also a you know believer that Biden should have you know believer that Biden should have you know believer that Biden should have stepped aside a long time ago and it's stepped aside a long time ago and it's stepped aside a long time ago and it's only getting worse um and so I'm I'm only getting worse um and so I'm I'm only getting worse um and so I'm I'm attacking the president attacking the president attacking the president Dei Elite I Dei Elite I Dei Elite I ities um and uh you make some enemies ities um and uh you make some enemies ities um and uh you make some enemies doing that well I should say I you know doing that well I should say I you know doing that well I should say I you know I'm still at MIT and I I love MIT and I I'm still at MIT and I I love MIT and I I'm still at MIT and I I love MIT and I believe in the power of great believe in the power of great believe in the power of great universities to uh explore ideas to universities to uh explore ideas to universities to uh explore ideas to inspire young people to think to be to inspire young people to think to be to inspire young people to think to be to inspire young people to lead let me ask inspire young people to lead let me ask inspire young people to lead let me ask okay how can you explore how to think okay how can you explore how to think okay how can you explore how to think when you're only shared a certain point when you're only shared a certain point when you're only shared a certain point of view right right how can you learn of view right right how can you learn of view right right how can you learn about leadership when when the the about leadership when when the the about leadership when when the the governance and Leadership of the governance and Leadership of the governance and Leadership of the institution is is broken and exposure to institution is is broken and exposure to institution is is broken and exposure to ideas if you're limited in the ideas ideas if you're limited in the ideas ideas if you're limited in the ideas that you're exposed to so I think that you're exposed to so I think that you're exposed to so I think Universities at risk I mean the Universities at risk I mean the Universities at risk I mean the concerning thing right is if 34 student concerning thing right is if 34 student concerning thing right is if 34 student organizations that each have I don't organizations that each have I don't organizations that each have I don't know 30 members or maybe more right it's know 30 members or maybe more right it's know 30 members or maybe more right it's a thousand okay that's a meaningful a thousand okay that's a meaningful a thousand okay that's a meaningful percentage of the of the campus perhaps percentage of the of the campus perhaps percentage of the of the campus perhaps that ultimately respond now a 10 or so that ultimately respond now a 10 or so that ultimately respond now a 10 or so of the 30 withdrew the statement once of the 30 withdrew the statement once of the 30 withdrew the statement once uh many of the members realized what uh many of the members realized what uh many of the members realized what they had written so I don't think it

they had written so I don't think it they had written so I don't think it seems like the statement was signed by seems like the statement was signed by seems like the statement was signed by the leadership and not necessarily the leadership and not necessarily the leadership and not necessarily supported by all the various students supported by all the various students supported by all the various students that were uh were members but if the that were uh were members but if the that were uh were members but if the university teaches people these university teaches people these university teaches people these precepts this is the next generation of precepts this is the next generation of precepts this is the next generation of lead you know normally if you think lead you know normally if you think lead you know normally if you think about I wrote my college thesis on about I wrote my college thesis on about I wrote my college thesis on University of missions the reason why University of missions the reason why University of missions the reason why controlling you know the gates of the controlling you know the gates of the controlling you know the gates of the Harvard uh institution the missions is Harvard uh institution the missions is Harvard uh institution the missions is important isn't that many of these important isn't that many of these important isn't that many of these people who graduate end up with you know people who graduate end up with you know people who graduate end up with you know the top jobs in government and and uh the top jobs in government and and uh the top jobs in government and and uh ultimately become judges um they're uh ultimately become judges um they're uh ultimately become judges um they're uh you know permeate through society and so you know permeate through society and so you know permeate through society and so it really matters what they learn and if it really matters what they learn and if it really matters what they learn and if it if they're limited to one side of the it if they're limited to one side of the it if they're limited to one side of the political aisle uh and they're not open political aisle uh and they're not open political aisle uh and they're not open to a broad array of of of views uh and to a broad array of of of views uh and to a broad array of of of views uh and this represent some of the most elite this represent some of the most elite this represent some of the most elite institutions in our country I think it's institutions in our country I think it's institutions in our country I think it's very problematic for the country long very problematic for the country long very problematic for the country long term term term yeah I 100% agree and I also felt like yeah I 100% agree and I also felt like yeah I 100% agree and I also felt like the the the leadership wasn't leadership wasn't leadership wasn't even part of the problem as much as they even part of the problem as much as they even part of the problem as much as they were almost out of touch like were almost out of touch like were almost out of touch like unaware that this is an important moment unaware that this is an important moment unaware that this is an important moment it's an important crisis it's an it's an important crisis it's an it's an important crisis it's an important opportunity to step up as a important opportunity to step up as a important opportunity to step up as a leader and Define the future of an leader and Define the future of an leader and Define the future of an institution so I don't even know where institution so I don't even know where institution so I don't even know where the source of the problem is it could be the source of the problem is it could be the source of the problem is it could be literally government struct literally government struct literally government struct as we've been two things I think it's as we've been two things I think it's as we've been two things I think it's governance structure I also think governance structure I also think governance structure I also think universities are selecting they're not

universities are selecting they're not universities are selecting they're not selecting leaders yeah U you know it's selecting leaders yeah U you know it's selecting leaders yeah U you know it's not clear to me that not clear to me that not clear to me that uh University should necessarily be run uh University should necessarily be run uh University should necessarily be run by academics right you know the the the by academics right you know the the the by academics right you know the the the dean of a dean of a dean of a university uh you know the person who university uh you know the person who university uh you know the person who helps helps helps um sort of the business of the um sort of the business of the um sort of the business of the University right and then there's the University right and then there's the University right and then there's the academics of the university and having a academics of the university and having a academics of the university and having a I would argue having a business leader I would argue having a business leader I would argue having a business leader run these run these run these institutions uh and then having a board institutions uh and then having a board institutions uh and then having a board that's invol a board that has itself that's invol a board that has itself that's invol a board that has itself diverse viewpoints and by the way diverse viewpoints and by the way diverse viewpoints and by the way permanently structured to have diverse permanently structured to have diverse permanently structured to have diverse viewpoints uh is a much better way to viewpoints uh is a much better way to viewpoints uh is a much better way to run a university than picking an run a university than picking an run a university than picking an academic that the faculty supports academic that the faculty supports academic that the faculty supports because you know one of the things I because you know one of the things I because you know one of the things I learned about how faculty get hired at learned about how faculty get hired at learned about how faculty get hired at universities ultimately it's signed off universities ultimately it's signed off universities ultimately it's signed off by the board by the board by the board but you know the new faculty are chosen but you know the new faculty are chosen but you know the new faculty are chosen by each of the various departments and by each of the various departments and by each of the various departments and once the Departments tip uh there's sort once the Departments tip uh there's sort once the Departments tip uh there's sort of a Tipping Point politically where if of a Tipping Point politically where if of a Tipping Point politically where if once they tip in One Direction The once they tip in One Direction The once they tip in One Direction The Faculty uh recruit more people like Faculty uh recruit more people like Faculty uh recruit more people like themselves and so the Departments come themselves and so the Departments come themselves and so the Departments come more and more Progressive if you will more and more Progressive if you will more and more Progressive if you will with the passage of time and they only with the passage of time and they only with the passage of time and they only Advance candidates that that match their Advance candidates that that match their Advance candidates that that match their U they meet their political objectives U they meet their political objectives U they meet their political objectives it's it's not a great way to to build an it's it's not a great way to to build an it's it's not a great way to to build an instit institution which allows for instit institution which allows for instit institution which allows for small D diversity allows for yeah small D diversity allows for yeah small D diversity allows for yeah diversity and diversity by the way is

diversity and diversity by the way is diversity and diversity by the way is not just race and gender and uh that's not just race and gender and uh that's not just race and gender and uh that's also something I feel very strongly also something I feel very strongly also something I feel very strongly about well luckily engineering robotics about well luckily engineering robotics about well luckily engineering robotics is touched Last by this it is touched is touched Last by this it is touched is touched Last by this it is touched but you know uh I've when I'm at the but you know uh I've when I'm at the but you know uh I've when I'm at the Computing building stata and the new one Computing building stata and the new one Computing building stata and the new one politics doesn't infiltrate or I haven't politics doesn't infiltrate or I haven't politics doesn't infiltrate or I haven't seen it infiltrate quite as deep Place seen it infiltrate quite as deep Place seen it infiltrate quite as deep Place elsewhere but it's in the biology elsewhere but it's in the biology elsewhere but it's in the biology department at Harvard because biology is department at Harvard because biology is department at Harvard because biology is controversial now yes yes yes because controversial now yes yes yes because controversial now yes yes yes because biology and gender you know there there biology and gender you know there there biology and gender you know there there there are faculty there's a woman at there are faculty there's a woman at there are faculty there's a woman at Harvard who was literally canceled from Harvard who was literally canceled from Harvard who was literally canceled from The Faculty as a member I think she was The Faculty as a member I think she was The Faculty as a member I think she was the med school uh and she was you know the med school uh and she was you know the med school uh and she was you know she made the argument that there are she made the argument that there are she made the argument that there are basically you know two genders basically you know two genders basically you know two genders determined by biology and she wasn't determined by biology and she wasn't determined by biology and she wasn't allowed to allowed to allowed to stay oh that's another topic for another stay oh that's another topic for another stay oh that's another topic for another time topic you should do a show on that time topic you should do a show on that time topic you should do a show on that one that would be an interesting one so one that would be an interesting one so one that would be an interesting one so as you said technically Claud gay the as you said technically Claud gay the as you said technically Claud gay the president of Harvard resigned over president of Harvard resigned over president of Harvard resigned over plagiarism not over the thing that you plagiarism not over the thing that you plagiarism not over the thing that you were initially troubled by it's hard to were initially troubled by it's hard to were initially troubled by it's hard to really know right it's not like a really know right it's not like a really know right it's not like a provable fact I would say at a certain provable fact I would say at a certain provable fact I would say at a certain point in time she lost the confidence of point in time she lost the confidence of point in time she lost the confidence of the faculty and that was ultimately the the faculty and that was ultimately the the faculty and that was ultimately the Catalyst and whether that was how much Catalyst and whether that was how much Catalyst and whether that was how much of that was the plagiarism issue and how of that was the plagiarism issue and how of that was the plagiarism issue and how much of that was some of the things that much of that was some of the things that much of that was some of the things that preceded it or was it all these issues preceded it or was it all these issues preceded it or was it all these issues in their entirety we don't really in their entirety we don't really in their entirety we don't really there's no way to do a calculus can you there's no way to do a calculus can you there's no way to do a calculus can you explain the nature of this plagiarism explain the nature of this plagiarism explain the nature of this plagiarism from what you remember uh so Aon sarum

from what you remember uh so Aon sarum from what you remember uh so Aon sarum and Christopher rufo one from the Free and Christopher rufo one from the Free and Christopher rufo one from the Free Beacon and Chris you know surfaced some Beacon and Chris you know surfaced some Beacon and Chris you know surfaced some allegations on or identified some plager allegations on or identified some plager allegations on or identified some plager issues that I would say the initial issues that I would say the initial issues that I would say the initial examples were you know uh use of the examples were you know uh use of the examples were you know uh use of the same words with proper attribution some same words with proper attribution some same words with proper attribution some missing quot you know missing quot you know missing quot you know footnotes and then over footnotes and then over footnotes and then over time uh with I guess more digging they time uh with I guess more digging they time uh with I guess more digging they released I think ultimately something released I think ultimately something released I think ultimately something like 76 examples of uh what they call like 76 examples of uh what they call like 76 examples of uh what they call plagiarism in I think eight of 11 of her plagiarism in I think eight of 11 of her plagiarism in I think eight of 11 of her articles and one of the other things articles and one of the other things articles and one of the other things that came forth here is as president of that came forth here is as president of that came forth here is as president of the University she had sort of the the University she had sort of the the University she had sort of the thinnest transcript academically of any thinnest transcript academically of any thinnest transcript academically of any previous president you know very small previous president you know very small previous president you know very small relatively small body of work and then relatively small body of work and then relatively small body of work and then when you couple that with the amount of when you couple that with the amount of when you couple that with the amount of plagiarism that was pervasive plagiarism that was pervasive plagiarism that was pervasive and then I guess the some of the other and then I guess the some of the other and then I guess the some of the other examples that surface were not missing examples that surface were not missing examples that surface were not missing quotation marks where the authors of the quotation marks where the authors of the quotation marks where the authors of the work felt that their ideas had been work felt that their ideas had been work felt that their ideas had been stolen and really plagiarism is academic stolen and really plagiarism is academic stolen and really plagiarism is academic fraud there's there indic one indic of fraud there's there indic one indic of fraud there's there indic one indic of plagiarism is a missing footnote that plagiarism is a missing footnote that plagiarism is a missing footnote that could also be a clerical error and so could also be a clerical error and so could also be a clerical error and so when a you know Professor is accused of when a you know Professor is accused of when a you know Professor is accused of plagiarism University does sort of a plagiarism University does sort of a plagiarism University does sort of a deep dive they have these administrative deep dive they have these administrative deep dive they have these administrative boards and it can take 6 months N9 boards and it can take 6 months N9 boards and it can take 6 months N9 months a year to evaluate you know months a year to evaluate you know months a year to evaluate you know intent matters was this intentional intent matters was this intentional intent matters was this intentional theft of another person's idea that's theft of another person's idea that's theft of another person's idea that's academic fraud or was this sloppy you

academic fraud or was this sloppy you academic fraud or was this sloppy you know you missed or just Humanity right know you missed or just Humanity right know you missed or just Humanity right you you miss a footnote here or there you you miss a footnote here or there you you miss a footnote here or there and uh I think once it got to a place and uh I think once it got to a place and uh I think once it got to a place where people felt it was theft of where people felt it was theft of where people felt it was theft of someone else's intellectual property someone else's intellectual property someone else's intellectual property that's when it became intolerable for that's when it became intolerable for that's when it became intolerable for her to stay as president of Harvard so her to stay as president of Harvard so her to stay as president of Harvard so is there a spectrum for you between is there a spectrum for you between is there a spectrum for you between a different kinds of plagiarism maybe U a different kinds of plagiarism maybe U a different kinds of plagiarism maybe U plagiarizing words and plagiarizing plagiarizing words and plagiarizing plagiarizing words and plagiarizing ideas and plagiarizing novel ideas and plagiarizing novel ideas and plagiarizing novel ideas of course the common understanding ideas of course the common understanding ideas of course the common understanding of plagiarism if you look in the of plagiarism if you look in the of plagiarism if you look in the dictionary it's about dictionary it's about dictionary it's about theft theft requires a theft theft requires a theft theft requires a intent did the person intentionally take intent did the person intentionally take intent did the person intentionally take someone else's ideas or words now if someone else's ideas or words now if someone else's ideas or words now if you're if you're writing a novel right you're if you're writing a novel right you're if you're writing a novel right words matter more right if you're taking words matter more right if you're taking words matter more right if you're taking Shakespeare and presenting it as your Shakespeare and presenting it as your Shakespeare and presenting it as your own words uh if you're you know writing own words uh if you're you know writing own words uh if you're you know writing about ideas you know ideas matter but about ideas you know ideas matter but about ideas you know ideas matter but you're not supposed to take someone you're not supposed to take someone you're not supposed to take someone else's words without properly else's words without properly else's words without properly acknowledging them whether it's acknowledging them whether it's acknowledging them whether it's quotation marks or otherwise but in the quotation marks or otherwise but in the quotation marks or otherwise but in the context of a academic's life's work context of a academic's life's work context of a academic's life's work before before before AI everyone's going to have missing AI everyone's going to have missing AI everyone's going to have missing quotation marks and footnotes I remember quotation marks and footnotes I remember quotation marks and footnotes I remember writing my own thesis you know I would writing my own thesis you know I would writing my own thesis you know I would write I would take there books you write I would take there books you write I would take there books you couldn't take out of Widener Library so couldn't take out of Widener Library so couldn't take out of Widener Library so I'd have index cards and I write stuff I'd have index cards and I write stuff I'd have index cards and I write stuff on index cards and I put a little on index cards and I put a little on index cards and I put a little citation to make sure I remember to citation to make sure I remember to citation to make sure I remember to cited properly and you know scrambling

cited properly and you know scrambling cited properly and you know scrambling to do your thesis get it in on time to do your thesis get it in on time to do your thesis get it in on time what's the chances you forget at what what's the chances you forget at what what's the chances you forget at what point what are your words versus the point what are your words versus the point what are your words versus the author's words and you forget to put author's words and you forget to put author's words and you forget to put quotation marks just the humanity you quotation marks just the humanity you quotation marks just the humanity you know the human uh fallibility of it so know the human uh fallibility of it so know the human uh fallibility of it so you know you don't get it's not academic you know you don't get it's not academic you know you don't get it's not academic fraud to have human fail ability but fraud to have human fail ability but fraud to have human fail ability but it's academic fraud if you take someone it's academic fraud if you take someone it's academic fraud if you take someone else's ideas that are an integral part else's ideas that are an integral part else's ideas that are an integral part of your work is there a part of you that of your work is there a part of you that of your work is there a part of you that regrets that at least from the regrets that at least from the regrets that at least from the perception of it the the president of perception of it the the president of perception of it the the president of Harvard stepped down over plagiarism Harvard stepped down over plagiarism Harvard stepped down over plagiarism versus versus versus over refusing to say that the calls for over refusing to say that the calls for over refusing to say that the calls for genocide are wrong again I think it genocide are wrong again I think it genocide are wrong again I think it would have sent a better would have sent a better would have sent a better message if a fail if a leader fails as a message if a fail if a leader fails as a message if a fail if a leader fails as a leader leader leader and that's the reason for their and that's the reason for their and that's the reason for their resignation or dismissal then she gets resignation or dismissal then she gets resignation or dismissal then she gets if you will caught on a technical if you will caught on a technical if you will caught on a technical violation that had nothing to do with violation that had nothing to do with violation that had nothing to do with failed leadership because I don't know failed leadership because I don't know failed leadership because I don't know what lesson that that you know what what lesson that that you know what what lesson that that you know what lesson that teaches the board about lesson that teaches the board about lesson that teaches the board about selecting the next candidate I mean the selecting the next candidate I mean the selecting the next candidate I mean the future of Harvard a lot of it's going to future of Harvard a lot of it's going to future of Harvard a lot of it's going to depend on who they pick as the next depend on who they pick as the next depend on who they pick as the next leader um here's an interesting leader um here's an interesting leader um here's an interesting anecdote uh that I think is not surfaced anecdote uh that I think is not surfaced anecdote uh that I think is not surfaced publicly so um a guy named Larry beo was publicly so um a guy named Larry beo was publicly so um a guy named Larry beo was the previous president of Harvard Larry the previous president of Harvard Larry the previous president of Harvard Larry beo was on the search beo was on the search beo was on the search committee uh and they were looking for committee uh and they were looking for committee uh and they were looking for new new new president and what was strange was they president and what was strange was they president and what was strange was they picked an old white guy to be president picked an old white guy to be president picked an old white guy to be president of Harvard when there was you know a

of Harvard when there was you know a of Harvard when there was you know a call for a more diverse president and call for a more diverse president and call for a more diverse president and what I learned was Harvard actually ran what I learned was Harvard actually ran what I learned was Harvard actually ran a a a process had a diverse new president of process had a diverse new president of process had a diverse new president of Harvard and in the due diligence on that Harvard and in the due diligence on that Harvard and in the due diligence on that candidate shortly before the candidate shortly before the candidate shortly before the announcement of the new president they announcement of the new president they announcement of the new president they found out that the president that found out that the president that found out that the president that presidential candidate had a plagiarism presidential candidate had a plagiarism presidential candidate had a plagiarism problem and the search had gone on long problem and the search had gone on long problem and the search had gone on long enough they couldn't restart a search to enough they couldn't restart a search to enough they couldn't restart a search to find another candidate so they picked find another candidate so they picked find another candidate so they picked Larry backo off the board off the search Larry backo off the board off the search Larry backo off the board off the search committee to be the next president of committee to be the next president of committee to be the next president of Harvard as kind of an inim Harvard as kind of an inim Harvard as kind of an inim solution and then there was that much solution and then there was that much solution and then there was that much more pressure to have a more diverse more pressure to have a more diverse more pressure to have a more diverse candidate this time around because it candidate this time around because it candidate this time around because it was a big disappointment to the Dei was a big disappointment to the Dei was a big disappointment to the Dei office if you will and I would say to office if you will and I would say to office if you will and I would say to the community at large at the Harvard of the community at large at the Harvard of the community at large at the Harvard of all places couldn't have a you know a all places couldn't have a you know a all places couldn't have a you know a racially diverse present would send an racially diverse present would send an racially diverse present would send an important important important message um so the strange thing is that message um so the strange thing is that message um so the strange thing is that they didn't do due diligence on they didn't do due diligence on they didn't do due diligence on President gay and that was a relatively President gay and that was a relatively President gay and that was a relatively quick process um so the whole thing I quick process um so the whole thing I quick process um so the whole thing I think is worthy of further you know think is worthy of further you know think is worthy of further you know exploration so this goes deeper than exploration so this goes deeper than exploration so this goes deeper than just the president yes for sure when a just the president yes for sure when a just the president yes for sure when a company fails most people blame the CEO company fails most people blame the CEO company fails most people blame the CEO I generally blame the I generally blame the I generally blame the board right because the board's job is board right because the board's job is board right because the board's job is to make sure the right person is running to make sure the right person is running to make sure the right person is running the company and if they're failing help the company and if they're failing help the company and if they're failing help the person if they can't help the person the person if they can't help the person the person if they can't help the person make a change that's not what's happened make a change that's not what's happened make a change that's not what's happened here the board's hand was sort of forced here the board's hand was sort of forced here the board's hand was sort of forced from the outside whereas they should from the outside whereas they should from the outside whereas they should have made their own decision from the

have made their own decision from the have made their own decision from the inside you still love Harvard sure it's inside you still love Harvard sure it's inside you still love Harvard sure it's a 400 odd year uh institution it uh a 400 odd year uh institution it uh a 400 odd year uh institution it uh enormously helpful to me in my life I'm enormously helpful to me in my life I'm enormously helpful to me in my life I'm sure uh my sister also went to Harvard sure uh my sister also went to Harvard sure uh my sister also went to Harvard um and you know the experiences um and you know the experiences um and you know the experiences learnings friendships learnings friendships learnings friendships relationships uh you know again I'm very relationships uh you know again I'm very relationships uh you know again I'm very happy with my life uh Harvard was an happy with my life uh Harvard was an happy with my life uh Harvard was an important part of my life I went there important part of my life I went there important part of my life I went there for both undergrad and business school I for both undergrad and business school I for both undergrad and business school I learned a ton met a lot of Faculty a lot learned a ton met a lot of Faculty a lot learned a ton met a lot of Faculty a lot from number of my closest friends who I from number of my closest friends who I from number of my closest friends who I I still really keep in touch with how I I still really keep in touch with how I I still really keep in touch with how I made then so yeah it's a great place but made then so yeah it's a great place but made then so yeah it's a great place but it needs a a reboot yeah I I still have it needs a a reboot yeah I I still have it needs a a reboot yeah I I still have hope I think uh universities are really hope I think uh universities are really hope I think uh universities are really important institutions you know when I important institutions you know when I important institutions you know when I went to Harvard there were 1600 people went to Harvard there were 1600 people went to Harvard there were 1600 people in my class I think today's class is in my class I think today's class is in my class I think today's class is about the same about the same about the same size and uh their online education size and uh their online education size and uh their online education really has not sort of taken off right really has not sort of taken off right really has not sort of taken off right so I heard Peter teal speak at one point so I heard Peter teal speak at one point so I heard Peter teal speak at one point in time and he's like what great in time and he's like what great in time and he's like what great institution do you know that's truly institution do you know that's truly institution do you know that's truly great that hasn't grown in 100 years great that hasn't grown in 100 years great that hasn't grown in 100 years right and uh you know the incentives in right and uh you know the incentives in right and uh you know the incentives in some sense of the alums are for it it's some sense of the alums are for it it's some sense of the alums are for it it's a bit like a club if you're proud of the a bit like a club if you're proud of the a bit like a club if you're proud of the elitism of the club you don't want any elitism of the club you don't want any elitism of the club you don't want any that many new members but the fact that that many new members but the fact that that many new members but the fact that the population has grown of the country the population has grown of the country the population has grown of the country so you know significantly since so you know significantly since so you know significantly since certainly I was a student in

certainly I was a student in certainly I was a student in 1984 uh and the fact that Harvard 1984 uh and the fact that Harvard 1984 uh and the fact that Harvard recruits people from all over the world recruits people from all over the world recruits people from all over the world it's really serving a smaller and it's really serving a smaller and it's really serving a smaller and smaller percentage of the population smaller percentage of the population smaller percentage of the population today and you know some of were most today and you know some of were most today and you know some of were most talented and talented and talented and successful uh Entre anyway you know it's successful uh Entre anyway you know it's successful uh Entre anyway you know it's a it's a token of success that they a it's a token of success that they a it's a token of success that they didn't make it through their didn't make it through their didn't make it through their undergraduate years you know they left undergraduate years you know they left undergraduate years you know they left as a freshman or they didn't attend at as a freshman or they didn't attend at as a freshman or they didn't attend at all for entrepreneurs yes but it's still all for entrepreneurs yes but it's still all for entrepreneurs yes but it's still a place very important for research very a place very important for research very a place very important for research very important for advancing important for advancing important for advancing ideas uh and yes and and shaping ideas uh and yes and and shaping ideas uh and yes and and shaping dialogue and the next generation of dialogue and the next generation of dialogue and the next generation of Supreme Court Justices yes and you know Supreme Court Justices yes and you know Supreme Court Justices yes and you know the members of government politicians so the members of government politicians so the members of government politicians so yes it's critically important but it yes it's critically important but it yes it's critically important but it it's it's it's not not doing the job it should be not not doing the job it should be not not doing the job it should be doing Nar oxman somebody you mentioned doing Nar oxman somebody you mentioned doing Nar oxman somebody you mentioned several times throughout this podcast several times throughout this podcast several times throughout this podcast somebody I had a wonderful conversation somebody I had a wonderful conversation somebody I had a wonderful conversation with a friendship with I've known looked with a friendship with I've known looked with a friendship with I've known looked up to her admired her has been a fan up to her admired her has been a fan up to her admired her has been a fan I've been a fan of hers for a long time I've been a fan of hers for a long time I've been a fan of hers for a long time of her work um and of her as a human of her work um and of her as a human of her work um and of her as a human being uh looks like you're a fan of hers being uh looks like you're a fan of hers being uh looks like you're a fan of hers as well yes as well yes as well yes uh what do you love about AR what do you uh what do you love about AR what do you uh what do you love about AR what do you admire about her as a scientist artist admire about her as a scientist artist admire about her as a scientist artist human being I human being I human being I think uh she's the most beautiful person think uh she's the most beautiful person think uh she's the most beautiful person I've ever met and I mean that from like I've ever met and I mean that from like I've ever met and I mean that from like the center of her the center of her the center of her soul uh she's the most caring warm soul uh she's the most caring warm soul uh she's the most caring warm considerate you know

considerate you know considerate you know thoughtful uh person I've ever met and thoughtful uh person I've ever met and thoughtful uh person I've ever met and uh and she couples those remarkable uh and she couples those remarkable uh and she couples those remarkable qualities with Brilliance incredible qualities with Brilliance incredible qualities with Brilliance incredible creativity Beauty Elegance creativity Beauty Elegance creativity Beauty Elegance Grace um yeah I'm talking about my wife Grace um yeah I'm talking about my wife Grace um yeah I'm talking about my wife um but I'm talking incredibly um but I'm talking incredibly um but I'm talking incredibly dispassionately um but I I mean what I dispassionately um but I I mean what I dispassionately um but I I mean what I say uh she's the most remarkable person say uh she's the most remarkable person say uh she's the most remarkable person I've ever met uh and I've met a lot of I've ever met uh and I've met a lot of I've ever met uh and I've met a lot of remarkable people and I'm incredibly remarkable people and I'm incredibly remarkable people and I'm incredibly fortunate to spend a very high fortunate to spend a very high fortunate to spend a very high percentage of my life time with her ever percentage of my life time with her ever percentage of my life time with her ever since I met her uh you know six years since I met her uh you know six years since I met her uh you know six years ago so she's been a help to through some ago so she's been a help to through some ago so she's been a help to through some of the rough moments you describe for of the rough moments you describe for of the rough moments you describe for sure I mean I met her at the bottom uh sure I mean I met her at the bottom uh sure I mean I met her at the bottom uh which is not a bad place to meet someone which is not a bad place to meet someone which is not a bad place to meet someone if it works if it works if it works out uh is there some degree of uh yin out uh is there some degree of uh yin out uh is there some degree of uh yin yang with the two personalities you have yang with the two personalities you have yang with the two personalities you have you have described yourself as uh you have described yourself as uh you have described yourself as uh emotional and so on but it does seem you emotional and so on but it does seem you emotional and so on but it does seem you the two of you have slightly different the two of you have slightly different the two of you have slightly different styles about how you approach the world styles about how you approach the world styles about how you approach the world well interestingly we there's we have a well interestingly we there's we have a well interestingly we there's we have a lot of like um you know we come from lot of like um you know we come from lot of like um you know we come from very similar places in the world you very similar places in the world you very similar places in the world you know there are times where we feel like know there are times where we feel like know there are times where we feel like we've known each other for centuries you we've known each other for centuries you we've known each other for centuries you know I met her parents for the first know I met her parents for the first know I met her parents for the first time uh you know a long time ago almost time uh you know a long time ago almost time uh you know a long time ago almost six years ago as well and uh I knew her six years ago as well and uh I knew her six years ago as well and uh I knew her parents were from Eastern Europe parents were from Eastern Europe parents were from Eastern Europe originally so I asked her father like originally so I asked her father like originally so I asked her father like what you know what city that her family what you know what city that her family what you know what city that her family come from

come from come from originally and uh I called my father uh originally and uh I called my father uh originally and uh I called my father uh and asked him you know Dad what's you and asked him you know Dad what's you and asked him you know Dad what's you know Grandpa Abraham where's he what's know Grandpa Abraham where's he what's know Grandpa Abraham where's he what's the name of the city and then I put uh the name of the city and then I put uh the name of the city and then I put uh the two CI into Google Maps and they the two CI into Google Maps and they the two CI into Google Maps and they were 52 miles apart which I thought was were 52 miles apart which I thought was were 52 miles apart which I thought was pretty cool um then of course at some pretty cool um then of course at some pretty cool um then of course at some point we did genetic point we did genetic point we did genetic testing make sure we weren't related testing make sure we weren't related testing make sure we weren't related yeah which we were not um but uh we yeah which we were not um but uh we yeah which we were not um but uh we share incredible commonality on share incredible commonality on share incredible commonality on values uh we are attracted to the same values uh we are attracted to the same values uh we are attracted to the same kind of people you know she loves my kind of people you know she loves my kind of people you know she loves my friends I love hers uh we love doing the friends I love hers uh we love doing the friends I love hers uh we love doing the same kind of things uh we're attracted same kind of things uh we're attracted same kind of things uh we're attracted to you know we like spending time the to you know we like spending time the to you know we like spending time the same way um same way um same way um and she has yes more emotion uh more and she has yes more emotion uh more and she has yes more emotion uh more Elegance U she doesn't like battles but Elegance U she doesn't like battles but Elegance U she doesn't like battles but she's very strong uh but she's more she's very strong uh but she's more she's very strong uh but she's more sensitive than I am yeah you you are sensitive than I am yeah you you are sensitive than I am yeah you you are constantly in multiple battles at the constantly in multiple battles at the constantly in multiple battles at the same time and there's often the media same time and there's often the media same time and there's often the media social media is just fire everywhere you social media is just fire everywhere you social media is just fire everywhere you know that hasn't really been the case know that hasn't really been the case know that hasn't really been the case for a while I've had Rel of Peace for a for a while I've had Rel of Peace for a for a while I've had Rel of Peace for a long time because I as I stopped being long time because I as I stopped being long time because I as I stopped being as I haven't had to be the kind of as I haven't had to be the kind of as I haven't had to be the kind of activist I was earlier in my career uh I activist I was earlier in my career uh I activist I was earlier in my career uh I think since October 7th yes I do feel think since October 7th yes I do feel think since October 7th yes I do feel like I've been in a war can you tell me like I've been in a war can you tell me like I've been in a war can you tell me The Saga of the accusations against Nar The Saga of the accusations against Nar The Saga of the accusations against Nar so I did not actually surface the

so I did not actually surface the so I did not actually surface the plagiarism allegations against uh plagiarism allegations against uh plagiarism allegations against uh president gay that surfaced by you know president gay that surfaced by you know president gay that surfaced by you know Aaron and uh maybe Christopher rufo as Aaron and uh maybe Christopher rufo as Aaron and uh maybe Christopher rufo as well or maybe Chris helped promote what well or maybe Chris helped promote what well or maybe Chris helped promote what Aaron and some Anonymous person uh Aaron and some Anonymous person uh Aaron and some Anonymous person uh identified but I certainly it was a identified but I certainly it was a identified but I certainly it was a point in time where the board had said point in time where the board had said point in time where the board had said we're 100% behind her and uh unanimously we're 100% behind her and uh unanimously we're 100% behind her and uh unanimously and I really felt you had to go so it and I really felt you had to go so it and I really felt you had to go so it didn't bother me at all that they had didn't bother me at all that they had didn't bother me at all that they had identified problems with her work so I identified problems with her work so I identified problems with her work so I shared I I reposted those posts and then shared I I reposted those posts and then shared I I reposted those posts and then when the board she ultimately resigned when the board she ultimately resigned when the board she ultimately resigned and she got a $900,000 a year and she got a $900,000 a year and she got a $900,000 a year professorship continuing at Harvard I professorship continuing at Harvard I professorship continuing at Harvard I said look in light of her limited said look in light of her limited said look in light of her limited academic record academic record academic record and these plagiarism allegations I she I and these plagiarism allegations I she I and these plagiarism allegations I she I she had to she had to she had to go um I knew when I did so I assumed I go um I knew when I did so I assumed I go um I knew when I did so I assumed I was actually a bit paranoid about that was actually a bit paranoid about that was actually a bit paranoid about that thesis I had written I only had one thesis I had written I only had one thesis I had written I only had one academic academic academic work um but I hadn't checked it for work um but I hadn't checked it for work um but I hadn't checked it for plagiarism and I thought that's GNA plagiarism and I thought that's GNA plagiarism and I thought that's GNA that's going to happen actually I had it that's going to happen actually I had it that's going to happen actually I had it uh I I had someone I I did not have a uh I I had someone I I did not have a uh I I had someone I I did not have a copy on hand so I got a copy of my copy on hand so I got a copy of my copy on hand so I got a copy of my thesis and I and I remember writing it thesis and I and I remember writing it thesis and I and I remember writing it Harvard at the time was pretty uh they Harvard at the time was pretty uh they Harvard at the time was pretty uh they kind of gave you a lecture about making kind of gave you a lecture about making kind of gave you a lecture about making sure you have all your footnotes and sure you have all your footnotes and sure you have all your footnotes and quotation marks I learned later that quotation marks I learned later that quotation marks I learned later that apparently they had a copy of my thesis apparently they had a copy of my thesis apparently they had a copy of my thesis at the New York Public Library and a at the New York Public Library and a at the New York Public Library and a member of the media told me he was there member of the media told me he was there member of the media told me he was there uh online with you know a dozen other uh online with you know a dozen other uh online with you know a dozen other members of the media all trying to get a members of the media all trying to get a members of the media all trying to get a copy of my thesis to run it through some

copy of my thesis to run it through some copy of my thesis to run it through some AI they had to First do optical AI they had to First do optical AI they had to First do optical character recognition to convert the uh character recognition to convert the uh character recognition to convert the uh paper document into uh digital um but paper document into uh digital um but paper document into uh digital um but fortunately uh through a miracle uh I fortunately uh through a miracle uh I fortunately uh through a miracle uh I didn't have an issue I didn't think didn't have an issue I didn't think didn't have an issue I didn't think about ner of course who has whatever 130 about ner of course who has whatever 130 about ner of course who has whatever 130 academic academic academic works and so we were just at the end of works and so we were just at the end of works and so we were just at the end of a vacation for Christmas break and uh I a vacation for Christmas break and uh I a vacation for Christmas break and uh I was early in the morning uh for vacation was early in the morning uh for vacation was early in the morning uh for vacation time and uh all of a sudden I hear my time and uh all of a sudden I hear my time and uh all of a sudden I hear my phone ringing in the other room or phone ringing in the other room or phone ringing in the other room or vibrating in the other room multiple vibrating in the other room multiple vibrating in the other room multiple times I'm like I pick up the phone it's times I'm like I pick up the phone it's times I'm like I pick up the phone it's our communication guy friend Miguel and our communication guy friend Miguel and our communication guy friend Miguel and he's like bill um Business Insider has he's like bill um Business Insider has he's like bill um Business Insider has apparently identified a number of apparently identified a number of apparently identified a number of instances of plagiarism in nar's instances of plagiarism in nar's instances of plagiarism in nar's dissertation let me send you this email dissertation let me send you this email dissertation let me send you this email he sent me the email and uh they had he sent me the email and uh they had he sent me the email and uh they had identified four paragraphs in her 330 identified four paragraphs in her 330 identified four paragraphs in her 330 page dissertation where she had cited page dissertation where she had cited page dissertation where she had cited the author but she had used the vast the author but she had used the vast the author but she had used the vast majority of the words and that those majority of the words and that those majority of the words and that those paragraphs were from the author and she paragraphs were from the author and she paragraphs were from the author and she should have used quotation marks and should have used quotation marks and should have used quotation marks and then there was one case where she then there was one case where she then there was one case where she paraphrased correctly an author paraphrased correctly an author paraphrased correctly an author uh but did not uh footnote that it was uh but did not uh footnote that it was uh but did not uh footnote that it was from his from his from his work uh and so we were presented with work uh and so we were presented with work uh and so we were presented with this and told they're going to publish this and told they're going to publish this and told they're going to publish in a few hours and we're like well can in a few hours and we're like well can in a few hours and we're like well can we get to the next day we're just on you we get to the next day we're just on you we get to the next day we're just on you about to head home and they're like no about to head home and they're like no about to head home and they're like no we're publishing by noon we need an we're publishing by noon we need an we're publishing by noon we need an answer by noon and uh so we downloaded answer by noon and uh so we downloaded answer by noon and uh so we downloaded the copy of her thesis on like the slow the copy of her thesis on like the slow the copy of her thesis on like the slow internet and uh you know ner checked it

internet and uh you know ner checked it internet and uh you know ner checked it out and she said you know what looks out and she said you know what looks out and she said you know what looks like they're right uh and I said look like they're right uh and I said look like they're right uh and I said look you should just admit admit your mistake you should just admit admit your mistake you should just admit admit your mistake and she wrote a very simple gracious yes and she wrote a very simple gracious yes and she wrote a very simple gracious yes I should have used quotation marks and I should have used quotation marks and I should have used quotation marks and on the author I failed to site uh she on the author I failed to site uh she on the author I failed to site uh she pointed out that she cited them eight pointed out that she cited them eight pointed out that she cited them eight other times and wrote a several other times and wrote a several other times and wrote a several paragraph uh section of her thesis paragraph uh section of her thesis paragraph uh section of her thesis acknowledging you know his work um and acknowledging you know his work um and acknowledging you know his work um and none of these were like important parts none of these were like important parts none of these were like important parts of her thesis but she acknowledged her of her thesis but she acknowledged her of her thesis but she acknowledged her mistake and she said you apologize for mistake and she said you apologize for mistake and she said you apologize for my mistake and I apologize to the author my mistake and I apologize to the author my mistake and I apologize to the author who I failed to site and I stand on the who I failed to site and I stand on the who I failed to site and I stand on the shoulders of uh you know all the people shoulders of uh you know all the people shoulders of uh you know all the people came before me and looking to advance came before me and looking to advance came before me and looking to advance work we sort of thought it was over we work we sort of thought it was over we work we sort of thought it was over we head home head home head home um in flight on the way home although we um in flight on the way home although we um in flight on the way home although we didn't realize this till we got back the didn't realize this till we got back the didn't realize this till we got back the following day uh Business Insider following day uh Business Insider following day uh Business Insider published another article and it said published another article and it said published another article and it said ner oxman admits to ner oxman admits to ner oxman admits to plagiarism plagiarism of course is plagiarism plagiarism of course is plagiarism plagiarism of course is academic fraud and this thing goes crazy academic fraud and this thing goes crazy academic fraud and this thing goes crazy viral oh Bill the title is Bill amman's viral oh Bill the title is Bill amman's viral oh Bill the title is Bill amman's wife MH wife MH wife MH celebrity academic ner oxman and they celebrity academic ner oxman and they celebrity academic ner oxman and they use the term celebrity use the term celebrity use the term celebrity because there are limits to what because there are limits to what because there are limits to what legitimate media can go after but you legitimate media can go after but you legitimate media can go after but you know celebrities there's a lot more know celebrities there's a lot more know celebrities there's a lot more leeway in the media into what they can leeway in the media into what they can leeway in the media into what they can say so that's why they call her a say so that's why they call her a say so that's why they call her a celebrity first time ever she'd been celebrity first time ever she'd been celebrity first time ever she'd been called a called a called a celebrity and uh and they they basically celebrity and uh and they they basically celebrity and uh and they they basically she's admitting to academic fraud and she's admitting to academic fraud and she's admitting to academic fraud and then they said and then the next

then they said and then the next then they said and then the next day uh at 5:19 p.m. I remember the day uh at 5:19 p.m. I remember the day uh at 5:19 p.m. I remember the timeline pretty well uh an email was timeline pretty well uh an email was timeline pretty well uh an email was sent to Fran McGill sent to Fran McGill sent to Fran McGill saying um you know we've identified you saying um you know we've identified you saying um you know we've identified you know two dozen other instances of know two dozen other instances of know two dozen other instances of plagiarism in her work 15 of which are plagiarism in her work 15 of which are plagiarism in her work 15 of which are Wikipedia entries where she copied Wikipedia entries where she copied Wikipedia entries where she copied definitions and uh the others were definitions and uh the others were definitions and uh the others were mostly software Hardware manuals for mostly software Hardware manuals for mostly software Hardware manuals for various devices or software she used in various devices or software she used in various devices or software she used in her work most of which were in footnotes her work most of which were in footnotes her work most of which were in footnotes where she described a nozzle for a 3D where she described a nozzle for a 3D where she described a nozzle for a 3D printer or something like printer or something like printer or something like this and they said we're publishing you this and they said we're publishing you this and they said we're publishing you know know know tonight the email they sent to us was tonight the email they sent to us was tonight the email they sent to us was 6900 words it was 12 Pages was 6900 words it was 12 Pages was 6900 words it was 12 Pages was practically inable you couldn't even practically inable you couldn't even practically inable you couldn't even read it in an hour and we didn't have read it in an hour and we didn't have read it in an hour and we didn't have some of the documents they were some of the documents they were some of the documents they were referring to and I'm like Nar you know referring to and I'm like Nar you know referring to and I'm like Nar you know what I'm going to do it I think it would what I'm going to do it I think it would what I'm going to do it I think it would be useful to provide context be useful to provide context be useful to provide context here uh I'm going to do a review of here uh I'm going to do a review of here uh I'm going to do a review of every MIT professor's dissertations every MIT professor's dissertations every MIT professor's dissertations every published paper AI has enabled every published paper AI has enabled every published paper AI has enabled this um and so that was I put on a tweet this um and so that was I put on a tweet this um and so that was I put on a tweet basically saying that and we're doing a basically saying that and we're doing a basically saying that and we're doing a test run now we have to get it right and test run now we have to get it right and test run now we have to get it right and I think would be a useful exercise I think would be a useful exercise I think would be a useful exercise provide some context if you will and provide some context if you will and provide some context if you will and then this thing goes crazy viral uh then this thing goes crazy viral uh then this thing goes crazy viral uh and you know ner is a pretty sensitive and you know ner is a pretty sensitive and you know ner is a pretty sensitive person pretty emotional person and person pretty emotional person and person pretty emotional person and someone who's a someone who's a someone who's a perfectionist and having everyone in the perfectionist and having everyone in the perfectionist and having everyone in the world thinking you committed academic world thinking you committed academic world thinking you committed academic fraud is a pretty daming thing now they

fraud is a pretty daming thing now they fraud is a pretty daming thing now they did say they did a thorough review of did say they did a thorough review of did say they did a thorough review of all of her work and this is what they all of her work and this is what they all of her work and this is what they found I'm like sweethe that's remarkable found I'm like sweethe that's remarkable found I'm like sweethe that's remarkable I did 130 Works 73 of which were peer- I did 130 Works 73 of which were peer- I did 130 Works 73 of which were peer- reviewed blah blah blah and she's reviewed blah blah blah and she's reviewed blah blah blah and she's published in nature science and all published in nature science and all published in nature science and all these different Publications that's these different Publications that's these different Publications that's actually it's a pretty good batting actually it's a pretty good batting actually it's a pretty good batting average but you know they can't this is average but you know they can't this is average but you know they can't this is wrong right this is not academic fraud wrong right this is not academic fraud wrong right this is not academic fraud okay these are inadvertent mistakes and okay these are inadvertent mistakes and okay these are inadvertent mistakes and the Wikipedia entries ner actually used the Wikipedia entries ner actually used the Wikipedia entries ner actually used Wikipedia as a dictionary this is the Wikipedia as a dictionary this is the Wikipedia as a dictionary this is the early days of Wikipedia and they also early days of Wikipedia and they also early days of Wikipedia and they also referred to the MIT handbook which has a referred to the MIT handbook which has a referred to the MIT handbook which has a whole section on plagiarism academic whole section on plagiarism academic whole section on plagiarism academic handbook and if you read it which I handbook and if you read it which I handbook and if you read it which I ultimately did they make clear a few ultimately did they make clear a few ultimately did they make clear a few things number one there's plagiarism things number one there's plagiarism things number one there's plagiarism academic fraud and there's what they academic fraud and there's what they academic fraud and there's what they call inadvertent plagiarism which is call inadvertent plagiarism which is call inadvertent plagiarism which is clerical errors where you make a mistake clerical errors where you make a mistake clerical errors where you make a mistake and it depends on intent and there's a and it depends on intent and there's a and it depends on intent and there's a link that you can go to which is a link that you can go to which is a link that you can go to which is a section on if you get investigated MIT section on if you get investigated MIT section on if you get investigated MIT what happens what's the procedure what's what happens what's the procedure what's what happens what's the procedure what's the initial stage what's the the initial stage what's the the initial stage what's the investigative stage what's the procedure investigative stage what's the procedure investigative stage what's the procedure if they identify it and they make very if they identify it and they make very if they identify it and they make very clear that academic fraud is and they clear that academic fraud is and they clear that academic fraud is and they list plagiarism you know research theft list plagiarism you know research theft list plagiarism you know research theft a few other things but it does not a few other things but it does not a few other things but it does not include honest errors honest errors are include honest errors honest errors are include honest errors honest errors are not plagiarism under mit's own policies not plagiarism under mit's own policies not plagiarism under mit's own policies and in the handbook they also have a big and in the handbook they also have a big and in the handbook they also have a big section of what they call common section of what they call common section of what they call common knowledge and common knowledge depends knowledge and common knowledge depends knowledge and common knowledge depends on who you're writing your thesis on who you're writing your thesis on who you're writing your thesis for uh and so if it's a fact that is for uh and so if it's a fact that is for uh and so if it's a fact that is known by your audience you're not

known by your audience you're not known by your audience you're not required to quote or site and so all required to quote or site and so all required to quote or site and so all those Wikipedia entries were for things those Wikipedia entries were for things those Wikipedia entries were for things like sustainable design computer AED like sustainable design computer AED like sustainable design computer AED design she just took a definition from design she just took a definition from design she just took a definition from Wikipedia common knowledge to her Wikipedia common knowledge to her Wikipedia common knowledge to her readers no obligation under the handbook readers no obligation under the handbook readers no obligation under the handbook totally exempt on the using the same totally exempt on the using the same totally exempt on the using the same words she referred to like an whatever words she referred to like an whatever words she referred to like an whatever some kind of 3D printer she was the some kind of 3D printer she was the some kind of 3D printer she was the straty 3D printer and she quoted from straty 3D printer and she quoted from straty 3D printer and she quoted from the manual right away strates as a the manual right away strates as a the manual right away strates as a company you consulted for they're very company you consulted for they're very company you consulted for they're very you don't need to that's not something you don't need to that's not something you don't need to that's not something you're not stealing their ideas you're you're not stealing their ideas you're you're not stealing their ideas you're describing a nozzle for a device you use describing a nozzle for a device you use describing a nozzle for a device you use in your work and a footnote that's not a in your work and a footnote that's not a in your work and a footnote that's not a theft of idea theft of idea theft of idea right and so I'm like this is crazy and right and so I'm like this is crazy and right and so I'm like this is crazy and so this has got to stop and so I reach so this has got to stop and so I reach so this has got to stop and so I reach out to uh the a guy I knew was on the out to uh the a guy I knew was on the out to uh the a guy I knew was on the board of Business Insider the chairman board of Business Insider the chairman board of Business Insider the chairman and his name is going to come public and his name is going to come public and his name is going to come public shortly I committed to that time to keep shortly I committed to that time to keep shortly I committed to that time to keep his name confidential it's now surfaced his name confidential it's now surfaced his name confidential it's now surfaced publicly in the Press can I just pause publicly in the Press can I just pause publicly in the Press can I just pause real quick here just to real quick here just to real quick here just to I don't know there's a lot of things I I don't know there's a lot of things I I don't know there's a lot of things I want to say but you made it pretty clear want to say but you made it pretty clear want to say but you made it pretty clear but just as a member of the but just as a member of the but just as a member of the community there's also like a common community there's also like a common community there's also like a common sense test I think you're more precisely sense test I think you're more precisely sense test I think you're more precisely like legal and looking at but there's like legal and looking at but there's like legal and looking at but there's just like a bullshit test and like just like a bullshit test and like just like a bullshit test and like nothing that ner did is plagiarism in nothing that ner did is plagiarism in nothing that ner did is plagiarism in the bad meaning of the word plagiarism the bad meaning of the word plagiarism the bad meaning of the word plagiarism right now is becoming another ISM like

right now is becoming another ISM like right now is becoming another ISM like racist ISM or so on using an attack word racist ISM or so on using an attack word racist ISM or so on using an attack word I don't care what the meaning of it is I don't care what the meaning of it is I don't care what the meaning of it is but there's the bad academic fraud like but there's the bad academic fraud like but there's the bad academic fraud like theft yes theft of an idea and maybe you theft yes theft of an idea and maybe you theft yes theft of an idea and maybe you can say a lot of definitions and this can say a lot of definitions and this can say a lot of definitions and this kind of stuff but then there's just a kind of stuff but then there's just a kind of stuff but then there's just a basic bullshit test where everyone knows basic bullshit test where everyone knows basic bullshit test where everyone knows this is a thief and this is definitely this is a thief and this is definitely this is a thief and this is definitely not a thief and there's nothing about not a thief and there's nothing about not a thief and there's nothing about anything that ner did anything in her anything that ner did anything in her anything that ner did anything in her thesis or in her life everyone that thesis or in her life everyone that thesis or in her life everyone that knows her she's a rock star right I just knows her she's a rock star right I just knows her she's a rock star right I just want to make it clear it really hurt me want to make it clear it really hurt me want to make it clear it really hurt me that the internet whatever is happening that the internet whatever is happening that the internet whatever is happening could go after could go after a great scientist because I love after a great scientist because I love science and I love celebrating great science and I love celebrating great science and I love celebrating great scientists and it's just really messed scientists and it's just really messed scientists and it's just really messed up that whatever the machine and we can up that whatever the machine and we can up that whatever the machine and we can talk about business inside or whatever talk about business inside or whatever talk about business inside or whatever uh social uh social uh social media Mass hysteria whatever is media Mass hysteria whatever is media Mass hysteria whatever is happening like we need the great happening like we need the great happening like we need the great scientists of the world cuz that's like scientists of the world cuz that's like scientists of the world cuz that's like the future depends on them and so we the future depends on them and so we the future depends on them and so we need to celebrate them and protect them need to celebrate them and protect them need to celebrate them and protect them and let them flourish and let their do and let them flourish and let their do and let them flourish and let their do their thing and like keep them out of their thing and like keep them out of their thing and like keep them out of this what whatever shit storm that we're this what whatever shit storm that we're this what whatever shit storm that we're doing to get clicks and advertisements doing to get clicks and advertisements doing to get clicks and advertisements and drama and all this kind we need to and drama and all this kind we need to and drama and all this kind we need to protect them so I just want to say there protect them so I just want to say there protect them so I just want to say there there's no there's nobody I know and there's no there's nobody I know and there's no there's nobody I know and million friends uh that are scientists million friends uh that are scientists million friends uh that are scientists uh world- class scientists snowball

uh world- class scientists snowball uh world- class scientists snowball Prize winners they all love ner they all Prize winners they all love ner they all Prize winners they all love ner they all respect ner there's she did zero respect ner there's she did zero respect ner there's she did zero wrong and then the rest of the wrong and then the rest of the wrong and then the rest of the conversation we can have about how conversation we can have about how conversation we can have about how broken journalism is and so on but like broken journalism is and so on but like broken journalism is and so on but like I just want to say that there's nothing I just want to say that there's nothing I just want to say that there's nothing um that ner did wrong it's not a great um that ner did wrong it's not a great um that ner did wrong it's not a great area or so on I also personally don't area or so on I also personally don't area or so on I also personally don't love that claudian gay is a discussion love that claudian gay is a discussion love that claudian gay is a discussion about plagiarism because it distracts about plagiarism because it distracts about plagiarism because it distracts from the from the from the fundamentals that is broken um it's fundamentals that is broken um it's fundamentals that is broken um it's becomes some weird technical becomes some weird technical becomes some weird technical discussion but in case ner did nothing discussion but in case ner did nothing discussion but in case ner did nothing wrong great scientist great engineer at wrong great scientist great engineer at wrong great scientist great engineer at MIT and Beyond she's doing the cool MIT and Beyond she's doing the cool MIT and Beyond she's doing the cool thing now so anyway could not have said thing now so anyway could not have said thing now so anyway could not have said it better myself now obviously I'm it better myself now obviously I'm it better myself now obviously I'm focused on the technical part right he focused on the technical part right he focused on the technical part right he want to be yes precise here well it's want to be yes precise here well it's want to be yes precise here well it's not even that I mean yes I have said uh not even that I mean yes I have said uh not even that I mean yes I have said uh that we're going to sue Business Insider that we're going to sue Business Insider that we're going to sue Business Insider and and in 35 years of my career of and and in 35 years of my career of and and in 35 years of my career of someone who is not every article has someone who is not every article has someone who is not every article has been a favorable one not article has been a favorable one not article has been a favorable one not article has been an accurate one I've never been an accurate one I've never been an accurate one I've never threatened to sue the media and I've threatened to sue the media and I've threatened to sue the media and I've never sued the media uh but this is so never sued the media uh but this is so never sued the media uh but this is so egregious it's not just that she did egregious it's not just that she did egregious it's not just that she did nothing wrong but they accused her of nothing wrong but they accused her of nothing wrong but they accused her of academic fraud they did it knowing they academic fraud they did it knowing they academic fraud they did it knowing they they make reference to mit's own they make reference to mit's own they make reference to mit's own handbook so they had to read all the handbook so they had to read all the handbook so they had to read all the same stuff that I read in the handbook same stuff that I read in the handbook same stuff that I read in the handbook uh they did that uh they did that uh they did that work then after I you know escalated work then after I you know escalated work then after I you know escalated this thing to the you know Henry bed the this thing to the you know Henry bed the this thing to the you know Henry bed the chairman of Business Insider to the CEO

chairman of Business Insider to the CEO chairman of Business Insider to the CEO of Axel Springer I even reached out to of Axel Springer I even reached out to of Axel Springer I even reached out to Henry kravis at a certain point in time Henry kravis at a certain point in time Henry kravis at a certain point in time one of the controlling shareholders of one of the controlling shareholders of one of the controlling shareholders of the company through the company through the company through KKR KKR KKR um laying out the factual errors in the um laying out the factual errors in the um laying out the factual errors in the article business iner went public after article business iner went public after article business iner went public after they said ner committed academic fraud they said ner committed academic fraud they said ner committed academic fraud and plagiarism and said we never CH we and plagiarism and said we never CH we and plagiarism and said we never CH we didn't challenge any the facts remain didn't challenge any the facts remain didn't challenge any the facts remain Undisputed in the article so so it's Undisputed in the article so so it's Undisputed in the article so so it's basically Nar committed plagiarism basically Nar committed plagiarism basically Nar committed plagiarism that's Story one ner admits to that's Story one ner admits to that's Story one ner admits to plagiarism she admits to plagiarism she plagiarism she admits to plagiarism she plagiarism she admits to plagiarism she admitted to she admitted to making a few admitted to she admitted to making a few admitted to she admitted to making a few clerical errors that's the only thing clerical errors that's the only thing clerical errors that's the only thing she admitted to and she graciously she admitted to and she graciously she admitted to and she graciously apologized so they said ner admits to apologized so they said ner admits to apologized so they said ner admits to plagiarism apologizes for plagiarism plagiarism apologizes for plagiarism plagiarism apologizes for plagiarism that's incredibly damning and by the way that's incredibly damning and by the way that's incredibly damning and by the way we're doing an investigation because we're doing an investigation because we're doing an investigation because we're concerned that there might have we're concerned that there might have we're concerned that there might have been inappropriate process but the facts been inappropriate process but the facts been inappropriate process but the facts of the story have not been disputed by of the story have not been disputed by of the story have not been disputed by ner oxman or Bill akman and that was ner oxman or Bill akman and that was ner oxman or Bill akman and that was totally false I had done it privately I totally false I had done it privately I totally false I had done it privately I done it publicly on Twitter on X I laid done it publicly on Twitter on X I laid done it publicly on Twitter on X I laid out I I have a whole text stream a out I I have a whole text stream a out I I have a whole text stream a WhatsApp stream with the CEO of the WhatsApp stream with the CEO of the WhatsApp stream with the CEO of the company and they and they double down company and they and they double down company and they and they double down and they double down again and so I and they double down again and so I and they double down again and so I don't sue people don't sue people don't sue people lightly and uh you stay tuned so lightly and uh you stay tuned so lightly and uh you stay tuned so you're at least for now moving forward you're at least for now moving forward you're at least for now moving forward with it's a certainty we're moving with it's a certainty we're moving with it's a certainty we're moving forward uh there's a step we can take forward uh there's a step we can take forward uh there's a step we can take prior to suing them prior to suing them prior to suing them where we where we where we basically send them a letter demanding

basically send them a letter demanding basically send them a letter demanding they make a series of they make a series of they make a series of Corrections that if they if they don't Corrections that if they if they don't Corrections that if they if they don't make those Corrections the next step is make those Corrections the next step is make those Corrections the next step is litigation I hope we can avoid the next litigation I hope we can avoid the next litigation I hope we can avoid the next step and I'm just making sure that we we step and I'm just making sure that we we step and I'm just making sure that we we present the demand to Business Insider present the demand to Business Insider present the demand to Business Insider and ultimately to Axel Springer that and ultimately to Axel Springer that and ultimately to Axel Springer that it's incredibly clear how they defamed it's incredibly clear how they defamed it's incredibly clear how they defamed her the factual mistakes in her stories her the factual mistakes in her stories her the factual mistakes in her stories uh and what they they need to do to fix uh and what they they need to do to fix uh and what they they need to do to fix it and if we can fix it there we can it and if we can fix it there we can it and if we can fix it there we can move on from this episode and hopefully move on from this episode and hopefully move on from this episode and hopefully avoid avoid avoid litigation um so that's where we are I litigation um so that's where we are I litigation um so that's where we are I don't know you're smarter than me don't know you're smarter than me don't know you're smarter than me there's technical stuff there's legal there's technical stuff there's legal there's technical stuff there's legal stuff there's journalistic stuff but stuff there's journalistic stuff but stuff there's journalistic stuff but just fuck you Business Insider for doing just fuck you Business Insider for doing just fuck you Business Insider for doing this I don't this I don't this I don't know I don't know much in this world but know I don't know much in this world but know I don't know much in this world but journalists aren't supposed to do that journalists aren't supposed to do that journalists aren't supposed to do that no look it we're going to surface all no look it we're going to surface all no look it we're going to surface all this stuff publicly this stuff publicly this stuff publicly ultimately the email was not to ner ultimately the email was not to ner ultimately the email was not to ner saying there was plagiarism in her work saying there was plagiarism in her work saying there was plagiarism in her work the email came from a reporter named the email came from a reporter named the email came from a reporter named Katherine long and the headline was your Katherine long and the headline was your Katherine long and the headline was your wife committed plagiarism shouldn't she wife committed plagiarism shouldn't she wife committed plagiarism shouldn't she be fired from MIT just like you caused be fired from MIT just like you caused be fired from MIT just like you caused clotting gay to be fired from Harvard clotting gay to be fired from Harvard clotting gay to be fired from Harvard yeah it it was a yeah it it was a yeah it it was a political agenda she doesn't like me political agenda she doesn't like me political agenda she doesn't like me okay and she was trying to hurt me and okay and she was trying to hurt me and okay and she was trying to hurt me and they couldn't find plagiar in my thesis they couldn't find plagiar in my thesis they couldn't find plagiar in my thesis and you know being the subject of short and you know being the subject of short and you know being the subject of short being a short seller the Herbal Life being a short seller the Herbal Life being a short seller the Herbal Life battle went on for years battle went on for years battle went on for years uh they tried to do everything to uh they tried to do everything to uh they tried to do everything to destroy my reputation so they already destroy my reputation so they already destroy my reputation so they already gone through my trash they already done

gone through my trash they already done gone through my trash they already done all that work so uh anything they could all that work so uh anything they could all that work so uh anything they could possibly find you know and I I I've I've possibly find you know and I I I've I've possibly find you know and I I I've I've always lived a very clean life okay always lived a very clean life okay always lived a very clean life okay thankfully and if you're going to be an thankfully and if you're going to be an thankfully and if you're going to be an activist short seller you better because activist short seller you better because activist short seller you better because they're going to find out dirt on you if they're going to find out dirt on you if they're going to find out dirt on you if it exists and so they're like how can we it exists and so they're like how can we it exists and so they're like how can we really hurt bill by the way MIT ner had really hurt bill by the way MIT ner had really hurt bill by the way MIT ner had left MIT years earlier when the reporter left MIT years earlier when the reporter left MIT years earlier when the reporter found out she was no longer a member of found out she was no longer a member of found out she was no longer a member of the MIT faculty they were enraged they the MIT faculty they were enraged they the MIT faculty they were enraged they didn't believe us they made us like you didn't believe us they made us like you didn't believe us they made us like you know prove to us she's no longer on the know prove to us she's no longer on the know prove to us she's no longer on the M fact because they wanted to get her M fact because they wanted to get her M fact because they wanted to get her fired and by the way malice is one of fired and by the way malice is one of fired and by the way malice is one of the you know uh important factors in the you know uh important factors in the you know uh important factors in determining whether someone whether determining whether someone whether determining whether someone whether defamation taken place and this was a defamation taken place and this was a defamation taken place and this was a malice driven uh this was not about news malice driven uh this was not about news malice driven uh this was not about news and the S the unfortunate thing about and the S the unfortunate thing about and the S the unfortunate thing about journalism is business ins made a journalism is business ins made a journalism is business ins made a fortune from this this story was fortune from this this story was fortune from this this story was published and republished by thousands published and republished by thousands published and republished by thousands of media organizations around the world of media organizations around the world of media organizations around the world world it was the number one trending world it was the number one trending world it was the number one trending thing on Twitter for like two days uh it thing on Twitter for like two days uh it thing on Twitter for like two days uh it every newspaper every was on the front every newspaper every was on the front every newspaper every was on the front page of every Israeli newspaper uh you page of every Israeli newspaper uh you page of every Israeli newspaper uh you know was on the front page of the know was on the front page of the know was on the front page of the financial times okay so this and she's financial times okay so this and she's financial times okay so this and she's building a business and you know if if building a business and you know if if building a business and you know if if you're CEO of a science company and you you're CEO of a science company and you you're CEO of a science company and you commited academic fraud that's commited academic fraud that's commited academic fraud that's incredibly damaging but I ultimately incredibly damaging but I ultimately incredibly damaging but I ultimately convinced her that this was good I said convinced her that this was good I said convinced her that this was good I said sweetheart you're amazing you're sweetheart you're amazing you're sweetheart you're amazing you're incredible you're incredibly talented incredible you're incredibly talented incredible you're incredibly talented but you're mostly known in the design but you're mostly known in the design but you're mostly known in the design world now everyone in the universe okay

world now everyone in the universe okay world now everyone in the universe okay has heard of ner oxman okay we're going has heard of ner oxman okay we're going has heard of ner oxman okay we're going to get this thing cleared up you're to get this thing cleared up you're to get this thing cleared up you're going to be doing an event in in six going to be doing an event in in six going to be doing an event in in six months where you're going to tell the months where you're going to tell the months where you're going to tell the world you're G to go out of stealth mode world you're G to go out of stealth mode world you're G to go out of stealth mode you can tell the world about all the you can tell the world about all the you can tell the world about all the incredible things that you building and incredible things that you building and incredible things that you building and you're designing and you're creating and you're designing and you're creating and you're designing and you're creating and you're going to it's going to be like you're going to it's going to be like you're going to it's going to be like the iPhone launch cuz everyone's going the iPhone launch cuz everyone's going the iPhone launch cuz everyone's going to be paying attention and they're going to be paying attention and they're going to be paying attention and they're going to going to want to see your work and uh to going to want to see your work and uh to going to want to see your work and uh you know that's how I try to cheer up you know that's how I try to cheer up you know that's how I try to cheer up but I think it's true it is true but and but I think it's true it is true but and but I think it's true it is true but and you're doing your your job is a good you're doing your your job is a good you're doing your your job is a good part in seeing the silver lining of all part in seeing the silver lining of all part in seeing the silver lining of all this how how is uh just from observing this how how is uh just from observing this how how is uh just from observing her how her how her how did uh she you did uh she you did uh she you know stay strong through all of the know stay strong through all of the know stay strong through all of the psychologically because at least I know psychologically because at least I know psychologically because at least I know she's pushing ahead with the work oh she's pushing ahead with the work oh she's pushing ahead with the work oh she's Full Speed Ahead in her work she's she's Full Speed Ahead in her work she's she's Full Speed Ahead in her work she's built an amazing team she's hired 30 built an amazing team she's hired 30 built an amazing team she's hired 30 scientists um scientists um scientists um roboticists people who uh biologists roboticists people who uh biologists roboticists people who uh biologists plant specialists material plant specialists material plant specialists material scientists engineers really Incredible scientists engineers really Incredible scientists engineers really Incredible Crew uh she's built this 36,000 foot lab Crew uh she's built this 36,000 foot lab Crew uh she's built this 36,000 foot lab in New York City that's a one of a kind in New York City that's a one of a kind in New York City that's a one of a kind it's still you know they're working out it's still you know they're working out it's still you know they're working out of it it's still under construction of it it's still under construction of it it's still under construction while they're working out of while they're working out of while they're working out of it um and so she's going to do amazing it um and so she's going to do amazing it um and so she's going to do amazing things but um as I said she's an things but um as I said she's an things but um as I said she's an extremely sensitive person she's a extremely sensitive person she's a extremely sensitive person she's a perfectionist okay imagine thinking that perfectionist okay imagine thinking that perfectionist okay imagine thinking that the entire world thinks you committed the entire world thinks you committed the entire world thinks you committed academic fraud and so that was very hard academic fraud and so that was very hard academic fraud and so that was very hard for her she's a very positive person but for her she's a very positive person but for her she's a very positive person but I saw her in I would say her darkest I saw her in I would say her darkest I saw her in I would say her darkest emotional period for sure she's doing

emotional period for sure she's doing emotional period for sure she's doing much better now but you can kill someone much better now but you can kill someone much better now but you can kill someone you can kill someone with by destroying you can kill someone with by destroying you can kill someone with by destroying the reputation people people commit the reputation people people commit the reputation people people commit suicide people go into these deep dark suicide people go into these deep dark suicide people go into these deep dark depression well my worry primarily when depression well my worry primarily when depression well my worry primarily when I saw what Business Insider was doing is I saw what Business Insider was doing is I saw what Business Insider was doing is uh that they might dim the light of a uh that they might dim the light of a uh that they might dim the light of a uh of a truly special scientist and uh of a truly special scientist and uh of a truly special scientist and Creator it's not going to happen but I Creator it's not going to happen but I Creator it's not going to happen but I also worry about also worry about also worry about others like ner young nar's that are others like ner young nar's that are others like ner young nar's that are that this sends a signal to um that that this sends a signal to um that that this sends a signal to um that might scare them and you know Jour might scare them and you know Jour might scare them and you know Jour journalism shouldn't scare aspiring journalism shouldn't scare aspiring journalism shouldn't scare aspiring young scientist the problem is the young scientist the problem is the young scientist the problem is the defamation law in the US is so favorable defamation law in the US is so favorable defamation law in the US is so favorable to the publisher to the media and so to the publisher to the media and so to the publisher to the media and so unfavorable uh to the victim and the unfavorable uh to the victim and the unfavorable uh to the victim and the incentives are all wrong you know the incentives are all wrong you know the incentives are all wrong you know the when you went from a paper version of when you went from a paper version of when you went from a paper version of Journalism to digital and you could Journalism to digital and you could Journalism to digital and you could track how many people track how many people track how many people click uh and it's a medium that click uh and it's a medium that click uh and it's a medium that advertising drives the economics and if advertising drives the economics and if advertising drives the economics and if you can show an Advertiser more clicks you can show an Advertiser more clicks you can show an Advertiser more clicks you can make more money right so a you can make more money right so a you can make more money right so a journalist is incentivized to write a journalist is incentivized to write a journalist is incentivized to write a story that will generate more clicks how story that will generate more clicks how story that will generate more clicks how you write a story the G more clicks you you write a story the G more clicks you you write a story the G more clicks you get a billionaire guy okay and then you get a billionaire guy okay and then you get a billionaire guy okay and then you go after his wife and you make a go after his wife and you make a go after his wife and you make a sensationalist story and you give them

sensationalist story and you give them sensationalist story and you give them no time to respond right you know look no time to respond right you know look no time to respond right you know look at the timing here they on the first at the timing here they on the first at the timing here they on the first story you know they gave us three hours story you know they gave us three hours story you know they gave us three hours on the second one the following day 5:19 on the second one the following day 5:19 on the second one the following day 5:19 p.m. the email comes in not to ner not p.m. the email comes in not to ner not p.m. the email comes in not to ner not to her firm but to my communications to her firm but to my communications to her firm but to my communications person who tracks us down by 5:30 you person who tracks us down by 5:30 you person who tracks us down by 5:30 you know 10 minutes later and they published know 10 minutes later and they published know 10 minutes later and they published their story 92 their story 92 their story 92 minutes uh after and they sent us we're minutes uh after and they sent us we're minutes uh after and they sent us we're going to surface all these documents in going to surface all these documents in going to surface all these documents in our our our demand read the email they sent whether demand read the email they sent whether demand read the email they sent whether you could even decipher it it's you know you could even decipher it it's you know you could even decipher it it's you know it's uh there was no and by the way it's uh there was no and by the way it's uh there was no and by the way there's a reason why academic there's a reason why academic there's a reason why academic institutions when a professors is institutions when a professors is institutions when a professors is accused of plagiarism why they have accused of plagiarism why they have accused of plagiarism why they have these very careful processes with these very careful processes with these very careful processes with multiple stages and they take they can multiple stages and they take they can multiple stages and they take they can take a year or more because it depends take a year or more because it depends take a year or more because it depends on intent on intent on intent was this intentional in order to be a was this intentional in order to be a was this intentional in order to be a crime an academic crime you got to prove crime an academic crime you got to prove crime an academic crime you got to prove that they intentionally stole look in that they intentionally stole look in that they intentionally stole look in some cases it's obvious in some cases some cases it's obvious in some cases some cases it's obvious in some cases it's very subtle and they take this it's very subtle and they take this it's very subtle and they take this stuff super seriously but they basically stuff super seriously but they basically stuff super seriously but they basically accus ner of academic crime and then 92 accus ner of academic crime and then 92 accus ner of academic crime and then 92 minutes later they said she committed an minutes later they said she committed an minutes later they said she committed an academic crime and that should be a academic crime and that should be a academic crime and that should be a crime and that should be punishable with crime and that should be punishable with crime and that should be punishable with litigation and there there should be a litigation and there there should be a litigation and there there should be a real cost and we're going to make sure real cost and we're going to make sure real cost and we're going to make sure there's a real cost reputationally and there's a real cost reputationally and there's a real cost reputationally and otherwise to Business Insider and to otherwise to Business Insider and to otherwise to Business Insider and to Axel Springer because ultimately you got Axel Springer because ultimately you got Axel Springer because ultimately you got to look to the controlling owner you to look to the controlling owner you to look to the controlling owner you know they're know they're know they're responsible I'll just say they you in responsible I'll just say they you in responsible I'll just say they you in this regard are inspiring to

this regard are inspiring to this regard are inspiring to me uh for for for facing basically uh an institution that whole basically uh an institution that whole purpose is to to write articles so purpose is to to write articles so purpose is to to write articles so you're like going into the fire my kids you're like going into the fire my kids you're like going into the fire my kids school the uh epithet for the school or school the uh epithet for the school or school the uh epithet for the school or the saying is go forth unafraid I think the saying is go forth unafraid I think the saying is go forth unafraid I think it's a good way to live and again I'm it's a good way to live and again I'm it's a good way to live and again I'm words can't harm me you know the uh the words can't harm me you know the uh the words can't harm me you know the uh the power of X and and we do owe Elon power of X and and we do owe Elon power of X and and we do owe Elon enormous thanks for this is now so for enormous thanks for this is now so for enormous thanks for this is now so for example The Washington Post wrote a example The Washington Post wrote a example The Washington Post wrote a story about me a couple days ago and I story about me a couple days ago and I story about me a couple days ago and I didn't I didn't the story was a fair didn't I didn't the story was a fair didn't I didn't the story was a fair Story So within a few hours of the story Story So within a few hours of the story Story So within a few hours of the story being written I'm able to put out a being written I'm able to put out a being written I'm able to put out a response the story and send it to a response the story and send it to a response the story and send it to a milli2 200,000 people and it gets read milli2 200,000 people and it gets read milli2 200,000 people and it gets read and reread I haven't checked but you and reread I haven't checked but you and reread I haven't checked but you know probably five million people saw my know probably five million people saw my know probably five million people saw my response now those are the people on X response now those are the people on X response now those are the people on X it's not everyone in the world there's it's not everyone in the world there's it's not everyone in the world there's still there's a disconnection between still there's a disconnection between still there's a disconnection between the X world and the offline World um but the X world and the offline World um but the X world and the offline World um but you know reputation in my business is you know reputation in my business is you know reputation in my business is basically all you have uh and as they basically all you have uh and as they basically all you have uh and as they say you can can take a lifetime to build say you can can take a lifetime to build say you can can take a lifetime to build reputation and take five minutes to have reputation and take five minutes to have reputation and take five minutes to have it disappear and the media plays a very it disappear and the media plays a very it disappear and the media plays a very important role important role important role and they can destroy people at least we and they can destroy people at least we and they can destroy people at least we now have some ability to fight back we now have some ability to fight back we now have some ability to fight back we have a platform we can Surface our views have a platform we can Surface our views have a platform we can Surface our views you know the typical old days they write you know the typical old days they write you know the typical old days they write an incredibly damning article and you

an incredibly damning article and you an incredibly damning article and you point out factual errors and then like point out factual errors and then like point out factual errors and then like two months later they bury a little two months later they bury a little two months later they bury a little correction on page Whatever by then the correction on page Whatever by then the correction on page Whatever by then the person was fired or or their life is person was fired or or their life is person was fired or or their life is destroyed or the reputation's damaged destroyed or the reputation's damaged destroyed or the reputation's damaged you know I was with Warren Buffett you know I was with Warren Buffett you know I was with Warren Buffett talking about media it's something he a talking about media it's something he a talking about media it's something he a business he really loves he says you business he really loves he says you business he really loves he says you know what Bill he said a thief with a know what Bill he said a thief with a know what Bill he said a thief with a dagger the only person who can cause you dagger the only person who can cause you dagger the only person who can cause you more harm than a thief with a dagger is more harm than a thief with a dagger is more harm than a thief with a dagger is a journalist with a pen and those were a journalist with a pen and those were a journalist with a pen and those were very powerful words so you think very powerful words so you think very powerful words so you think X formerly known as Twitter is a kind of X formerly known as Twitter is a kind of X formerly known as Twitter is a kind of neutralizing force to that to the power neutralizing force to that to the power neutralizing force to that to the power of centralized journalistic institutions of centralized journalistic institutions of centralized journalistic institutions 100% And I think it's a really important 100% And I think it's a really important 100% And I think it's a really important one and it's really been eye opening for one and it's really been eye opening for one and it's really been eye opening for me uh to see how stories get covered in me uh to see how stories get covered in me uh to see how stories get covered in mainstream media and then you actually mainstream media and then you actually mainstream media and then you actually what I do on X is I follow people on what I do on X is I follow people on what I do on X is I follow people on multiple sides of multiple sides of multiple sides of issue and you can or I post on a topic issue and you can or I post on a topic issue and you can or I post on a topic and I get to hear the other side you and I get to hear the other side you and I get to hear the other side you know I read the replies uh and it you know I read the replies uh and it you know I read the replies uh and it you know the truth is something that people know the truth is something that people know the truth is something that people have had a lot of question about have had a lot of question about have had a lot of question about particularly in the last uh I would say particularly in the last uh I would say particularly in the last uh I would say five years you know beginning with uh five years you know beginning with uh five years you know beginning with uh you know Trump's uh talking about fake you know Trump's uh talking about fake you know Trump's uh talking about fake news and a lot of what Trump said about news and a lot of what Trump said about news and a lot of what Trump said about fake news is true you know the world a fake news is true you know the world a fake news is true you know the world a big part of the world hated Trump and big part of the world hated Trump and big part of the world hated Trump and did everything they could to uh did everything they could to uh did everything they could to uh discredit them destroy him uh and you discredit them destroy him uh and you discredit them destroy him uh and you know he did a lot of things perhaps know he did a lot of things perhaps know he did a lot of things perhaps deserving of being being discredited deserving of being being discredited deserving of being being discredited he's by by a very imperfect and some he's by by a very imperfect and some he's by by a very imperfect and some cases harmful uh leader uh but you know

cases harmful uh leader uh but you know cases harmful uh leader uh but you know everything from pre-election you know everything from pre-election you know everything from pre-election you know the the hunter at Biden laptop story in the the hunter at Biden laptop story in the the hunter at Biden laptop story in the New York Post that uh you know then the New York Post that uh you know then the New York Post that uh you know then Twitter uh you know uh made difficult Twitter uh you know uh made difficult Twitter uh you know uh made difficult for people to uh to share and to read for people to uh to share and to read for people to uh to share and to read um you know uh Co you know the the the J um you know uh Co you know the the the J um you know uh Co you know the the the J badar of the world questioning the badar of the world questioning the badar of the world questioning the government's response questioning you government's response questioning you government's response questioning you know uh the you know long-term lockdowns know uh the you know long-term lockdowns know uh the you know long-term lockdowns questioning keeping kids out of school questioning keeping kids out of school questioning keeping kids out of school questions about masks about questions about masks about questions about masks about vaccines which are still not vaccines which are still not vaccines which are still not definitively answered um no definitively answered um no definitively answered um no counterbalance to the power of the counterbalance to the power of the counterbalance to the power of the government when the government can shut government when the government can shut government when the government can shut down avenues for free speech down avenues for free speech down avenues for free speech uh and where the mainstream media has uh and where the mainstream media has uh and where the mainstream media has kind of towed the line and many extents kind of towed the line and many extents kind of towed the line and many extents to the government's uh action so having to the government's uh action so having to the government's uh action so having a independently owned powerful platform a independently owned powerful platform a independently owned powerful platform is very important uh for Truth uh for is very important uh for Truth uh for is very important uh for Truth uh for free speech for hearing the other side free speech for hearing the other side free speech for hearing the other side of the story for counterbalancing the of the story for counterbalancing the of the story for counterbalancing the power of the government Elon is getting power of the government Elon is getting power of the government Elon is getting you know uh a lot of uh push back uh you you know uh a lot of uh push back uh you you know uh a lot of uh push back uh you know the spacex's and Teslas of the know the spacex's and Teslas of the know the spacex's and Teslas of the world are world are world are experiencing a lot of government uh you experiencing a lot of government uh you experiencing a lot of government uh you questions and investigations and you questions and investigations and you questions and investigations and you know even the president of United States know even the president of United States know even the president of United States came out and said look he's worth he came out and said look he's worth he came out and said look he's worth he needs to be needs to be needs to be investigated you know I'm getting my own investigated you know I'm getting my own investigated you know I'm getting my own version of that in terms of uh some version of that in terms of uh some version of that in terms of uh some negative media articles I don't know negative media articles I don't know negative media articles I don't know what's next um but yeah if you stick

what's next um but yeah if you stick what's next um but yeah if you stick your neck out in today's world and you your neck out in today's world and you your neck out in today's world and you you go against the establishment or at you go against the establishment or at you go against the establishment or at least the existing uh Administration uh least the existing uh Administration uh least the existing uh Administration uh you can find yourself uh in a very you can find yourself uh in a very you can find yourself uh in a very challenged place and that discourages challenged place and that discourages challenged place and that discourages people from sharing stuff and that's why people from sharing stuff and that's why people from sharing stuff and that's why Anonymous speech is important some of Anonymous speech is important some of Anonymous speech is important some of what you find on Twitter you mentioned what you find on Twitter you mentioned what you find on Twitter you mentioned Trump I have to talk to you about Trump I have to talk to you about Trump I have to talk to you about politics sure amongst all the other politics sure amongst all the other politics sure amongst all the other battles you've also been a part of that battles you've also been a part of that battles you've also been a part of that one maybe you can correct me on this but one maybe you can correct me on this but one maybe you can correct me on this but you've been a big supporter of various you've been a big supporter of various you've been a big supporter of various Democratic candidates over the years uh but you did say a lot of nice years uh but you did say a lot of nice things about Donald Trump uh in 2016 I things about Donald Trump uh in 2016 I things about Donald Trump uh in 2016 I believe so I was interviewed by Andrew believe so I was interviewed by Andrew believe so I was interviewed by Andrew sorin a week after Trump won the sorin a week after Trump won the sorin a week after Trump won the election yes and I made my case for why election yes and I made my case for why election yes and I made my case for why I thought he could be a good president I thought he could be a good president I thought he could be a good president yes so what was the case back then and yes so what was the case back then and yes so what was the case back then and to which degree did that turn out to be to which degree did that turn out to be to which degree did that turn out to be true and to which degree did it not to true and to which degree did it not to true and to which degree did it not to which degree was he a good president to which degree was he a good president to which degree was he a good president to which degree was he not good president which degree was he not good president which degree was he not good president look I think what I said at the time was look I think what I said at the time was look I think what I said at the time was the United States is actually a huge the United States is actually a huge the United States is actually a huge business and it reminds me a bit of the business and it reminds me a bit of the business and it reminds me a bit of the type of activist Investments we've taken type of activist Investments we've taken type of activist Investments we've taken on over time where this really really on over time where this really really on over time where this really really great business has kind of lost its way great business has kind of lost its way great business has kind of lost its way and with the right leadership we can fix and with the right leadership we can fix and with the right leadership we can fix it it it and if you think about the business of and if you think about the business of and if you think about the business of the United States today right you've got the United States today right you've got the United States today right you've got $32 trillion wor the debt so it's $32 trillion wor the debt so it's $32 trillion wor the debt so it's overleveraged and or it's highly overleveraged and or it's highly overleveraged and or it's highly leveraged and The Leverage is only leveraged and The Leverage is only leveraged and The Leverage is only increasing we're losing money I.E increasing we're losing money I.E increasing we're losing money I.E revenues aren't covering expenses uh the

revenues aren't covering expenses uh the revenues aren't covering expenses uh the cost of our debt is going up as interest cost of our debt is going up as interest cost of our debt is going up as interest rates have gone up and the debt has to rates have gone up and the debt has to rates have gone up and the debt has to be rolled over we have enormous be rolled over we have enormous be rolled over we have enormous administrative bloat uh in the uh the administrative bloat uh in the uh the administrative bloat uh in the uh the country uh the the regulatory regime is country uh the the regulatory regime is country uh the the regulatory regime is incredibly complicated burdensome and incredibly complicated burdensome and incredibly complicated burdensome and impeding impeding impeding growth um our relations with uh our growth um our relations with uh our growth um our relations with uh our competitor Nations and our friendly competitor Nations and our friendly competitor Nations and our friendly nations are are are far from ideal and nations are are are far from ideal and nations are are are far from ideal and those conditions were present in 2020 as those conditions were present in 2020 as those conditions were present in 2020 as well they're just I would say worse now well they're just I would say worse now well they're just I would say worse now and I said look it's a great thing that and I said look it's a great thing that and I said look it's a great thing that we have a businessman as president and we have a businessman as president and we have a businessman as president and in my lifetime I was really the first in my lifetime I was really the first in my lifetime I was really the first businessman as opposed to I mean maybe businessman as opposed to I mean maybe businessman as opposed to I mean maybe Bush to some degree was a business Bush to some degree was a business Bush to some degree was a business person uh but I thought okay I always person uh but I thought okay I always person uh but I thought okay I always wanted the CEO to be CEO of America and wanted the CEO to be CEO of America and wanted the CEO to be CEO of America and now we have trump it look he's got some now we have trump it look he's got some now we have trump it look he's got some personal qualities that seem less ideal personal qualities that seem less ideal personal qualities that seem less ideal but he's going to be president the but he's going to be president the but he's going to be president the United States he's going to rise to the United States he's going to rise to the United States he's going to rise to the occasion this is going to be his legacy occasion this is going to be his legacy occasion this is going to be his legacy and uh he knows how to make deals and and uh he knows how to make deals and and uh he knows how to make deals and he's got uh he's going to recruit some he's got uh he's going to recruit some he's got uh he's going to recruit some great people into his administration I great people into his administration I great people into his administration I hoped uh and you know growth can solve a hoped uh and you know growth can solve a hoped uh and you know growth can solve a lot of our problems so if we can get rid lot of our problems so if we can get rid lot of our problems so if we can get rid of a bunch of regulations that are of a bunch of regulations that are of a bunch of regulations that are holding back the country we can have a holding back the country we can have a holding back the country we can have a president Obama president Obama president Obama uh was a I would say not a pro business uh was a I would say not a pro business uh was a I would say not a pro business president he did not love the business president he did not love the business president he did not love the business Community he did not love successful Community he did not love successful Community he did not love successful people um and having a president who people um and having a president who people um and having a president who just changed the tone on on um being a just changed the tone on on um being a just changed the tone on on um being a pro business president I thought would pro business president I thought would pro business president I thought would be good for the country and that's be good for the country and that's be good for the country and that's basically what I said and I would say

basically what I said and I would say basically what I said and I would say Trump did a lot of good things uh and a Trump did a lot of good things uh and a Trump did a lot of good things uh and a lot of people you can get criticized for lot of people you can get criticized for lot of people you can get criticized for acknowledging that um but you know I acknowledging that um but you know I acknowledging that um but you know I think the the country's economy think the the country's economy think the the country's economy accelerated dramatically accelerated dramatically accelerated dramatically and that by the way you know the the and that by the way you know the the and that by the way you know the the capitalist system helps the people at capitalist system helps the people at capitalist system helps the people at the bottom best when the system does the bottom best when the system does the bottom best when the system does well and when the economy does well you well and when the economy does well you well and when the economy does well you know the black unemployment rate was the know the black unemployment rate was the know the black unemployment rate was the lowest in history when Trump was lowest in history when Trump was lowest in history when Trump was president and that's true for other president and that's true for other president and that's true for other minority groups uh so he was good for minority groups uh so he was good for minority groups uh so he was good for the the the economy um and he you know uh he economy um and he you know uh he economy um and he you know uh he recognized uh some of the challenges and recognized uh some of the challenges and recognized uh some of the challenges and issues and threats of China issues and threats of China issues and threats of China early uh he kind of woke up NATO uh now early uh he kind of woke up NATO uh now early uh he kind of woke up NATO uh now again the way he did all this stuff you again the way he did all this stuff you again the way he did all this stuff you can object to um but you know NATO can object to um but you know NATO can object to um but you know NATO actually started spending more money on actually started spending more money on actually started spending more money on defense in uh the early part of Trump's defense in uh the early part of Trump's defense in uh the early part of Trump's presidency because of his threats which presidency because of his threats which presidency because of his threats which turned out to be a good thing in light turned out to be a good thing in light turned out to be a good thing in light of uh you know the ultimately the Russia of uh you know the ultimately the Russia of uh you know the ultimately the Russia Ukraine uh War uh and I think if you Ukraine uh War uh and I think if you Ukraine uh War uh and I think if you analyze Trump objectively based on analyze Trump objectively based on analyze Trump objectively based on policies he did a lot of good for the policies he did a lot of good for the policies he did a lot of good for the country um I think what's bad is uh he country um I think what's bad is uh he country um I think what's bad is uh he did some harm as well uh you know the uh did some harm as well uh you know the uh did some harm as well uh you know the uh I do think civil I do think civil I do think civil disappeared in America with Trump as disappeared in America with Trump as disappeared in America with Trump as president a lot of that's his personal president a lot of that's his personal president a lot of that's his personal style and how important is civility I do style and how important is civility I do style and how important is civility I do think it's I do think you know he was think it's I do think you know he was think it's I do think you know he was attacked uh very aggressively by the attacked uh very aggressively by the attacked uh very aggressively by the left by the media uh that made him left by the media uh that made him left by the media uh that made him paranoid it probably interfered with his paranoid it probably interfered with his paranoid it probably interfered with his ability to be successful he had you know ability to be successful he had you know ability to be successful he had you know the Russian collusion investigation

the Russian collusion investigation the Russian collusion investigation overhang uh and when someone's attacked overhang uh and when someone's attacked overhang uh and when someone's attacked they're not going to be at their best they're not going to be at their best they're not going to be at their best particularly if they're paranoid I think particularly if they're paranoid I think particularly if they're paranoid I think there's some degree of that um but you there's some degree of that um but you there's some degree of that um but you know I'm giving kind of the the best of know I'm giving kind of the the best of know I'm giving kind of the the best of Defense of trump you know just uh you Defense of trump you know just uh you Defense of trump you know just uh you look at how he managed his team right look at how he managed his team right look at how he managed his team right very few people made it through the very few people made it through the very few people made it through the Trump Administration without getting Trump Administration without getting Trump Administration without getting fired or quitting uh and you who would fired or quitting uh and you who would fired or quitting uh and you who would say they're the greatest person in the say they're the greatest person in the say they're the greatest person in the world when he hired them and they're world when he hired them and they're world when he hired them and they're total disaster when he fired them uh total disaster when he fired them uh total disaster when he fired them uh it's not an inspiring way to be a leader it's not an inspiring way to be a leader it's not an inspiring way to be a leader and to attract really talented people I and to attract really talented people I and to attract really talented people I think the events surrounding the think the events surrounding the think the events surrounding the election election election uh you know I think January 6 he could uh you know I think January 6 he could uh you know I think January 6 he could have done a lot more to stop uh a riot I have done a lot more to stop uh a riot I have done a lot more to stop uh a riot I I don't consider it an Insurrection um I don't consider it an Insurrection um I don't consider it an Insurrection um but a riot that takes place in our but a riot that takes place in our but a riot that takes place in our capital and where police officers are capital and where police officers are capital and where police officers are killed or die commit suicide uh because killed or die commit suicide uh because killed or die commit suicide uh because for failure as they s to do their job for failure as they s to do their job for failure as they s to do their job you know he stepped in way too late to you know he stepped in way too late to you know he stepped in way too late to stop that he could have stopped it early stop that he could have stopped it early stop that he could have stopped it early you know many of his words I think you know many of his words I think you know many of his words I think inspired people you know some of whom inspired people you know some of whom inspired people you know some of whom with Mal intent to go in there and cause with Mal intent to go in there and cause with Mal intent to go in there and cause harm and literally to shut down the harm and literally to shut down the harm and literally to shut down the government there were some evil people government there were some evil people government there were some evil people unfortunately there so he's been a very unfortunately there so he's been a very unfortunately there so he's been a very imperfect president and also I think in imperfect president and also I think in imperfect president and also I think in and contributed to the uh you know and contributed to the uh you know and contributed to the uh you know extreme amount of divisiveness in our extreme amount of divisiveness in our extreme amount of divisiveness in our country so I was ultimately disappointed country so I was ultimately disappointed country so I was ultimately disappointed um by you know the note of optimism and um by you know the note of optimism and um by you know the note of optimism and again I again I again I always uh you know support the president always uh you know support the president always uh you know support the president I trust the people ultimately to select

I trust the people ultimately to select I trust the people ultimately to select our next leader you know it's a bit like our next leader you know it's a bit like our next leader you know it's a bit like um Who Wants To Be A Millionaire you um Who Wants To Be A Millionaire you um Who Wants To Be A Millionaire you know when you go to the crowd and the know when you go to the crowd and the know when you go to the crowd and the crowd says a certain thing you got to crowd says a certain thing you got to crowd says a certain thing you got to trust the crowd um but uh usually and trust the crowd um but uh usually and trust the crowd um but uh usually and Who Wants To Be A Millionaire it's a Who Wants To Be A Millionaire it's a Who Wants To Be A Millionaire it's a landslide in One Direction so you know landslide in One Direction so you know landslide in One Direction so you know which which led her to pick here we had which which led her to pick here we had which which led her to pick here we had an incredibly close election which an incredibly close election which an incredibly close election which itself is a problem so you know my dream itself is a problem so you know my dream itself is a problem so you know my dream and what I you know tried a little bit and what I you know tried a little bit and what I you know tried a little bit played politics in the last little played politics in the last little played politics in the last little period to support some alternatives to period to support some alternatives to period to support some alternatives to Trump so that we have a president you Trump so that we have a president you Trump so that we have a president you know I I use the you know example know I I use the you know example know I I use the you know example imagine you woke up in the morning it's imagine you woke up in the morning it's imagine you woke up in the morning it's election day whatever it is this election day whatever it is this election day whatever it is this November 4th whatever 20 24 and you November 4th whatever 20 24 and you November 4th whatever 20 24 and you still haven't figured out who to vote still haven't figured out who to vote still haven't figured out who to vote for cuz the candidates are so appealing for cuz the candidates are so appealing for cuz the candidates are so appealing that uh you don't know which lever to that uh you don't know which lever to that uh you don't know which lever to pull because it's a tough call that's pull because it's a tough call that's pull because it's a tough call that's the choice we should be making As the choice we should be making As the choice we should be making As Americans it shouldn't be I'm a member Americans it shouldn't be I'm a member Americans it shouldn't be I'm a member of this party I'm only going to vote of this party I'm only going to vote of this party I'm only going to vote this way I'm a member of that party this way I'm a member of that party this way I'm a member of that party going to vote the other way and I hate going to vote the other way and I hate going to vote the other way and I hate the other side and that's where we've the other side and that's where we've the other side and that's where we've been unfortunately for too long or you been unfortunately for too long or you been unfortunately for too long or you might be torn because both candidates might be torn because both candidates might be torn because both candidates are not good yeah so you want to I I are not good yeah so you want to I I are not good yeah so you want to I I love a future where I'm torn because the love a future where I'm torn because the love a future where I'm torn because the choices are so amazing the problem is choices are so amazing the problem is choices are so amazing the problem is the party system is so screwed up and the party system is so screwed up and the party system is so screwed up and the parties are self-interested and the parties are self-interested and the parties are self-interested and they're they're there another governance they're they're there another governance they're they're there another governance problem right an incentive problem uh problem right an incentive problem uh problem right an incentive problem uh Michael Porter who was one of my Michael Porter who was one of my Michael Porter who was one of my professors at har business school wrote professors at har business school wrote professors at har business school wrote a brilliant piece on the American a brilliant piece on the American a brilliant piece on the American political system and all the incentives political system and all the incentives political system and all the incentives and market dynamics and what you call and market dynamics and what you call and market dynamics and what you call the competitive analysis uh and it's a the competitive analysis uh and it's a the competitive analysis uh and it's a mustre I should dig it up and you know

mustre I should dig it up and you know mustre I should dig it up and you know send it around on X uh but it explains send it around on X uh but it explains send it around on X uh but it explains how the you know the parties and the how the you know the parties and the how the you know the parties and the incentives of these sort of incentives of these sort of incentives of these sort of self-sustaining entities that you know self-sustaining entities that you know self-sustaining entities that you know were the people involved are not were the people involved are not were the people involved are not incentivized to do what's best for the incentivized to do what's best for the incentivized to do what's best for the country it's a problem you've been uh a country it's a problem you've been uh a country it's a problem you've been uh a supporter of Dean supporter of Dean supporter of Dean Phillips yes for the 2024 US Phillips yes for the 2024 US Phillips yes for the 2024 US presidential race yes what do you like presidential race yes what do you like presidential race yes what do you like about about about Dean I think he's a honest smart Dean I think he's a honest smart Dean I think he's a honest smart motivated capable proen guy as a motivated capable proen guy as a motivated capable proen guy as a business leader and I think in uh six business leader and I think in uh six business leader and I think in uh six almost you know with in his three terms almost you know with in his three terms almost you know with in his three terms in Congress he ran when Trump was in Congress he ran when Trump was in Congress he ran when Trump was elected he said his you know kids cried elected he said his you know kids cried elected he said his you know kids cried his daughters cried inspired him to run his daughters cried inspired him to run his daughters cried inspired him to run for office uh ran in a republican for office uh ran in a republican for office uh ran in a republican District in Minnesota for the last 60 District in Minnesota for the last 60 District in Minnesota for the last 60 years uh was elected in the landslide years uh was elected in the landslide years uh was elected in the landslide has been reelected twice moved up the has been reelected twice moved up the has been reelected twice moved up the ranks in the ranks in the ranks in the Congress um you know uh respected by his Congress um you know uh respected by his Congress um you know uh respected by his fellow members of Congress Advance some fellow members of Congress Advance some fellow members of Congress Advance some important Legislation during covid uh on important Legislation during covid uh on important Legislation during covid uh on you know senior roles on various foreign you know senior roles on various foreign you know senior roles on various foreign policies policies policies committees committees committees Centrist you know considered I think the Centrist you know considered I think the Centrist you know considered I think the second most bipartisan member of the second most bipartisan member of the second most bipartisan member of the Congress I'd love to have a bipartisan Congress I'd love to have a bipartisan Congress I'd love to have a bipartisan president that's the only way to get president that's the only way to get president that's the only way to get kind of go forward but we'd enormously kind of go forward but we'd enormously kind of go forward but we'd enormously benefit if we had a president benefit if we had a president benefit if we had a president that chose policies on the basis of that chose policies on the basis of that chose policies on the basis of what's best for the country as opposed what's best for the country as opposed what's best for the country as opposed to what his party wanted what I like to what his party wanted what I like to what his party wanted what I like about him is he's financially about him is he's financially about him is he's financially independent he's not a billionaire but independent he's not a billionaire but independent he's not a billionaire but he doesn't need the job the party hates

he doesn't need the job the party hates he doesn't need the job the party hates him now because he challenged the king him now because he challenged the king him now because he challenged the king right and so uh but he's willing to give right and so uh but he's willing to give right and so uh but he's willing to give up his political career because what he up his political career because what he up his political career because what he thought was best for the country he thought was best for the country he thought was best for the country he tried to get other people to run who tried to get other people to run who tried to get other people to run who were higher profile had more name were higher profile had more name were higher profile had more name recognition none would no one wants to recognition none would no one wants to recognition none would no one wants to challenge Biden you know if they want to challenge Biden you know if they want to challenge Biden you know if they want to be have a chance to stay in office or be have a chance to stay in office or be have a chance to stay in office or run in the future uh but he's very run in the future uh but he's very run in the future uh but he's very principled uh I think he would be a principled uh I think he would be a principled uh I think he would be a great president um but he needs uh his great president um but he needs uh his great president um but he needs uh his shot is Michigan but he needs to raise shot is Michigan but he needs to raise shot is Michigan but he needs to raise money in order to he's only got a couple money in order to he's only got a couple money in order to he's only got a couple weeks and he's got to be on TV there weeks and he's got to be on TV there weeks and he's got to be on TV there that's expensive uh so uh we'll see so that's expensive uh so uh we'll see so that's expensive uh so uh we'll see so he has to increase name recognition all he has to increase name recognition all he has to increase name recognition all that kind of stuff also as you mentioned that kind of stuff also as you mentioned that kind of stuff also as you mentioned he's young yeah he's 55 but he's a young he's young yeah he's 55 but he's a young he's young yeah he's 55 but he's a young 55 you see him play hockey yeah I mean I 55 you see him play hockey yeah I mean I 55 you see him play hockey yeah I mean I guess 55 no matter what is a pretty guess 55 no matter what is a pretty guess 55 no matter what is a pretty young age 57 I feel young I can do more young age 57 I feel young I can do more young age 57 I feel young I can do more pull-ups today than I could as a kid so pull-ups today than I could as a kid so pull-ups today than I could as a kid so that's a standard you're at the top of that's a standard you're at the top of that's a standard you're at the top of your tennis game the top of my tennis your tennis game the top of my tennis your tennis game the top of my tennis game for sure maybe there's someone that game for sure maybe there's someone that game for sure maybe there's someone that would disagree with that and by the way would disagree with that and by the way would disagree with that and by the way the other thing to point out here is and the other thing to point out here is and the other thing to point out here is and I have been pointing this out as of I have been pointing this out as of I have been pointing this out as of others Biden is I think is done I mean others Biden is I think is done I mean others Biden is I think is done I mean it's embarrassing it's embarrassing for it's embarrassing it's embarrassing for it's embarrassing it's embarrassing for the country having him as a as a the country having him as a as a the country having him as a as a presidential candidate let alone the presidential candidate let alone the presidential candidate let alone the president of the country it's crazy and president of the country it's crazy and president of the country it's crazy and it's just going to get worse and worse it's just going to get worse and worse it's just going to get worse and worse and he should you know the worst of his and he should you know the worst of his and he should you know the worst of his legacy is his ego that prevents him from legacy is his ego that prevents him from legacy is his ego that prevents him from stepping aside and that's it it's his stepping aside and that's it it's his stepping aside and that's it it's his ego and it is so wrong and so bad and so

ego and it is so wrong and so bad and so ego and it is so wrong and so bad and so embarrassing uh you know you talk to embarrassing uh you know you talk to embarrassing uh you know you talk to people I was in Europe I was in London people I was in Europe I was in London people I was in Europe I was in London few days ago and people were like Bill few days ago and people were like Bill few days ago and people were like Bill how can this guy be your president and how can this guy be your president and how can this guy be your president and and it's a bit like again I go back to and it's a bit like again I go back to and it's a bit like again I go back to my business analogy being a CEO is like my business analogy being a CEO is like my business analogy being a CEO is like a full contact sport being president a full contact sport being president a full contact sport being president United States is like some combination United States is like some combination United States is like some combination of wrestling Marathon running you know of wrestling Marathon running you know of wrestling Marathon running you know try being a triathlete I mean you got to try being a triathlete I mean you got to try being a triathlete I mean you got to be at the serious physical shape and at be at the serious physical shape and at be at the serious physical shape and at the top of your game to represent this the top of your game to represent this the top of your game to represent this country and he is a far cry from that country and he is a far cry from that country and he is a far cry from that and it's just getting worse and it's and it's just getting worse and it's and it's just getting worse and it's embarrassing and I and he's got he embarrassing and I and he's got he embarrassing and I and he's got he cannot be and by the way every day he cannot be and by the way every day he cannot be and by the way every day he waits he's handing the election uh to waits he's handing the election uh to waits he's handing the election uh to Trump because it's harder and harder for Trump because it's harder and harder for Trump because it's harder and harder for an alternative candidate to surface now an alternative candidate to surface now an alternative candidate to surface now Dean is the only candidate left on the Dean is the only candidate left on the Dean is the only candidate left on the Democratic side that can still win Democratic side that can still win Democratic side that can still win delegates he's on the ballot in 42 delegates he's on the ballot in 42 delegates he's on the ballot in 42 States uh and the best way for Biden to States uh and the best way for Biden to States uh and the best way for Biden to step aside is for Dean to show well in step aside is for Dean to show well in step aside is for Dean to show well in Michigan and so you think there is a Michigan and so you think there is a Michigan and so you think there is a path with the delegates and all that path with the delegates and all that path with the delegates and all that kind of stuff 100% so if he if what has kind of stuff 100% so if he if what has kind of stuff 100% so if he if what has to happen is what New Hampshire he went to happen is what New Hampshire he went to happen is what New Hampshire he went from zero uh to 20% of the vote and and from zero uh to 20% of the vote and and from zero uh to 20% of the vote and and 10 weeks with no name recognition you 10 weeks with no name recognition you 10 weeks with no name recognition you know I helped a little bit Elon helped know I helped a little bit Elon helped know I helped a little bit Elon helped we did a spaces for him we had 350,000 we did a spaces for him we had 350,000 we did a spaces for him we had 350,000 people on the spaces some originally people on the spaces some originally people on the spaces some originally 40,000 live or something and then the 40,000 live or something and then the 40,000 live or something and then the the rest after um and then he was on the the rest after um and then he was on the the rest after um and then he was on the ground in New Hampshire and New ground in New Hampshire and New ground in New Hampshire and New Hampshire is one of the states where you Hampshire is one of the states where you Hampshire is one of the states where you don't need to be registered to to a don't need to be registered to to a don't need to be registered to to a party to vote for that candidate so it's

party to vote for that candidate so it's party to vote for that candidate so it's like jump ball and he got 20% and that's like jump ball and he got 20% and that's like jump ball and he got 20% and that's with a lot of Independence and Democrats with a lot of Independence and Democrats with a lot of Independence and Democrats voting for voting for voting for Haley um Haley who I like and who I've Haley um Haley who I like and who I've Haley um Haley who I like and who I've supported um does not look like she's supported um does not look like she's supported um does not look like she's going to make it uh you know Trump is going to make it uh you know Trump is going to make it uh you know Trump is really kind of running the table and so really kind of running the table and so really kind of running the table and so vote for Haley as an independent in vote for Haley as an independent in vote for Haley as an independent in Michigan maybe throw away your vote I Michigan maybe throw away your vote I Michigan maybe throw away your vote I think it increases the likelihood that think it increases the likelihood that think it increases the likelihood that Dean can get those independent votes if Dean can get those independent votes if Dean can get those independent votes if he he could theoretically again he needs he he could theoretically again he needs he he could theoretically again he needs he needs money he could beat Biden in he needs money he could beat Biden in he needs money he could beat Biden in Michigan Biden's doing very poorly in Michigan Biden's doing very poorly in Michigan Biden's doing very poorly in Michigan his polls are terrible the Michigan his polls are terrible the Michigan his polls are terrible the Muslim Community is not happy with him Muslim Community is not happy with him Muslim Community is not happy with him uh uh uh and uh he really spent no time there and and uh he really spent no time there and and uh he really spent no time there and so if he's embarrassed in Michigan it so if he's embarrassed in Michigan it so if he's embarrassed in Michigan it could be a catalyst for him withdrawing could be a catalyst for him withdrawing could be a catalyst for him withdrawing then Dean will get funding if he wins then Dean will get funding if he wins then Dean will get funding if he wins Michigan or shows well in Michigan and Michigan or shows well in Michigan and Michigan or shows well in Michigan and people say he's viable he's the only people say he's viable he's the only people say he's viable he's the only choice we have he'll attract from the choice we have he'll attract from the choice we have he'll attract from the center he'll attract from people center he'll attract from people center he'll attract from people Republicans who who won't vote for Trump Republicans who who won't vote for Trump Republicans who who won't vote for Trump in which they're a big percentage could in which they're a big percentage could in which they're a big percentage could be 60% or more it could be 70% won't be 60% or more it could be 70% won't be 60% or more it could be 70% won't vote for Trump and also from uh the vote for Trump and also from uh the vote for Trump and also from uh the Democrats so I think he's a really Democrats so I think he's a really Democrats so I think he's a really interesting candidate uh but we got to interesting candidate uh but we got to interesting candidate uh but we got to get the word out yeah I got a chance to get the word out yeah I got a chance to get the word out yeah I got a chance to chat with Dean I really like him I chat with Dean I really like him I chat with Dean I really like him I really like him and I think uh the next really like him and I think uh the next really like him and I think uh the next president of the United States is going president of the United States is going president of the United States is going to have to have to have to meet and speak regularly with zansi to meet and speak regularly with zansi to meet and speak regularly with zansi Putin Netanyahu with world leaders and Putin Netanyahu with world leaders and Putin Netanyahu with world leaders and have some of the most historic have some of the most historic have some of the most historic conversations agreements conversations agreements conversations agreements negotiations and I just don't see Biden

negotiations and I just don't see Biden negotiations and I just don't see Biden doing that no um and not doing that no um and not doing that no um and not for uh any reason but sadly age I mean for uh any reason but sadly age I mean for uh any reason but sadly age I mean think about it this way when Biden's in think about it this way when Biden's in think about it this way when Biden's in present now you saw his recent impromptu present now you saw his recent impromptu present now you saw his recent impromptu press conference which he did after the press conference which he did after the press conference which he did after the uh special prosecutor you know report uh special prosecutor you know report uh special prosecutor you know report basically saying the guy was way past basically saying the guy was way past basically saying the guy was way past his Prime and then he confused the his Prime and then he confused the his Prime and then he confused the president of Mexico and the president of president of Mexico and the president of president of Mexico and the president of Egypt Egypt Egypt so they're very careful when they roll so they're very careful when they roll so they're very careful when they roll him out and he's scripted and he's him out and he's scripted and he's him out and he's scripted and he's always reading from elector imagine the always reading from elector imagine the always reading from elector imagine the care they have in exposing him and it care they have in exposing him and it care they have in exposing him and it when they expose him it's terrible okay when they expose him it's terrible okay when they expose him it's terrible okay imagine how bad it is for real um so imagine how bad it is for real um so imagine how bad it is for real um so it's not good no bad really bad for it's not good no bad really bad for it's not good no bad really bad for America and I'm upset with him and upset America and I'm upset with him and upset America and I'm upset with him and upset with his family I'm upset with his wife with his family I'm upset with his wife with his family I'm upset with his wife you this is the time where the people you this is the time where the people you this is the time where the people closest to you have to put their arms closest to you have to put their arms closest to you have to put their arms around you and say you know Dad you know around you and say you know Dad you know around you and say you know Dad you know honey okay you've you know you've done honey okay you've you know you've done honey okay you've you know you've done your thing uh this is going to be your your thing uh this is going to be your your thing uh this is going to be your legacy and it's not going to be a good legacy and it's not going to be a good legacy and it's not going to be a good one great leaders should also know when one great leaders should also know when one great leaders should also know when to step down yeah one of the best tests to step down yeah one of the best tests to step down yeah one of the best tests of a leader is succession planning this of a leader is succession planning this of a leader is succession planning this is a massive failure of succession is a massive failure of succession is a massive failure of succession planning outside of planning outside of planning outside of politics let me look to the politics let me look to the politics let me look to the Future first in terms of the financial Future first in terms of the financial Future first in terms of the financial world what are you looking forward to in world what are you looking forward to in world what are you looking forward to in the next couple of years you have a new the next couple of years you have a new the next couple of years you have a new fund like what are you thinking about in fund like what are you thinking about in fund like what are you thinking about in terms of terms of terms of investment um your own and the entire

investment um your own and the entire investment um your own and the entire economy and maybe even the the economy economy and maybe even the the economy economy and maybe even the the economy of the world sure so the SEC doesn't of the world sure so the SEC doesn't of the world sure so the SEC doesn't allow uh doesn't like us to talk about allow uh doesn't like us to talk about allow uh doesn't like us to talk about uh new funds that we're launching that uh new funds that we're launching that uh new funds that we're launching that we filed with the SEC sure um but I we filed with the SEC sure um but I we filed with the SEC sure um but I would say I do uh and by the way if would say I do uh and by the way if would say I do uh and by the way if anyone's ever interested in a fund they anyone's ever interested in a fund they anyone's ever interested in a fund they should always read the prospectives should always read the prospectives should always read the prospectives carefully including the risk factors carefully including the risk factors carefully including the risk factors that's very very important but I like that's very very important but I like that's very very important but I like the idea of democratizing access to good the idea of democratizing access to good the idea of democratizing access to good investors uh and uh I think that's an investors uh and uh I think that's an investors uh and uh I think that's an interesting Trend so we want to be part interesting Trend so we want to be part interesting Trend so we want to be part of that Trend in terms of that Trend in terms of that Trend in terms of financial markets generally the of financial markets generally the of financial markets generally the economy you know a lot of is going to economy you know a lot of is going to economy you know a lot of is going to depend upon the next leader of the depend upon the next leader of the depend upon the next leader of the country so we're kind of right back country so we're kind of right back country so we're kind of right back there um you know the leadership the there um you know the leadership the there um you know the leadership the United States is important for the US United States is important for the US United States is important for the US economy it's important for the global economy it's important for the global economy it's important for the global economy it's important for Global economy it's important for Global economy it's important for Global Peace and we've gone through a really Peace and we've gone through a really Peace and we've gone through a really difficult uh period and it's time we difficult uh period and it's time we difficult uh period and it's time we need to break but you know look I think need to break but you know look I think need to break but you know look I think the United States is an incredibly the United States is an incredibly the United States is an incredibly resilient country we have some resilient country we have some resilient country we have some incredible Moes among them we have the incredible Moes among them we have the incredible Moes among them we have the Atlantic and the Pacific and we have you Atlantic and the Pacific and we have you Atlantic and the Pacific and we have you know peaceful neighbors to the North and know peaceful neighbors to the North and know peaceful neighbors to the North and the South we're an enormously rich the South we're an enormously rich the South we're an enormously rich country uh capitalism still works country uh capitalism still works country uh capitalism still works effectively here uh I get optimistic effectively here uh I get optimistic effectively here uh I get optimistic about the world when I talk to my about the world when I talk to my about the world when I talk to my friends who are either Venture friends who are either Venture friends who are either Venture capitalists or uh my hobby of backing capitalists or uh my hobby of backing capitalists or uh my hobby of backing these young entrepreneurs I talk to a these young entrepreneurs I talk to a these young entrepreneurs I talk to a founder of a startup if you want to get founder of a startup if you want to get founder of a startup if you want to get optimist about the world so I think optimist about the world so I think optimist about the world so I think technology is going to save us technology is going to save us technology is going to save us uh I think AI of course has its uh I think AI of course has its uh I think AI of course has its frightening uh Terminator like scenarios frightening uh Terminator like scenarios frightening uh Terminator like scenarios but I'm going to take the the opposite

but I'm going to take the the opposite but I'm going to take the the opposite view that this is going to be a huge view that this is going to be a huge view that this is going to be a huge enabler uh of uh productivity scientific enabler uh of uh productivity scientific enabler uh of uh productivity scientific discovery drug Discovery and it's going discovery drug Discovery and it's going discovery drug Discovery and it's going to make us healthier happier and and to make us healthier happier and and to make us healthier happier and and better so I do think you know the the better so I do think you know the the better so I do think you know the the internet Revolution was you know had a internet Revolution was you know had a internet Revolution was you know had a lot of good some obviously some bad I lot of good some obviously some bad I lot of good some obviously some bad I think the AI Revolution is going to be think the AI Revolution is going to be think the AI Revolution is going to be similar but we're at this other really similar but we're at this other really similar but we're at this other really interesting juncture interesting juncture interesting juncture uh in the world uh you know with uh uh in the world uh you know with uh uh in the world uh you know with uh technology and we're going to have to technology and we're going to have to technology and we're going to have to use it for our good uh on the media use it for our good uh on the media use it for our good uh on the media front I'm happy about X and I think uh front I'm happy about X and I think uh front I'm happy about X and I think uh elon's going to be successful here uh I elon's going to be successful here uh I elon's going to be successful here uh I think advertisers will realize it's a think advertisers will realize it's a think advertisers will realize it's a really good platform the best way to really good platform the best way to really good platform the best way to reach um me I want to sell something to reach um me I want to sell something to reach um me I want to sell something to me post I've actually bought stuff on uh me post I've actually bought stuff on uh me post I've actually bought stuff on uh some some ads in X I don't remember the some some ads in X I don't remember the some some ads in X I don't remember the last time I responded to direct response last time I responded to direct response last time I responded to direct response advertising you know in terms of uh my advertising you know in terms of uh my advertising you know in terms of uh my business I have an incredible team it's business I have an incredible team it's business I have an incredible team it's tiny we're one of the smallest firms tiny we're one of the smallest firms tiny we're one of the smallest firms relative to the assets we manage uh it's relative to the assets we manage uh it's relative to the assets we manage uh it's a bit like uh you know the uh the Navy a bit like uh you know the uh the Navy a bit like uh you know the uh the Navy Seals you know not the US Army we we Seals you know not the US Army we we Seals you know not the US Army we we have only 40 people at persing Square so have only 40 people at persing Square so have only 40 people at persing Square so it's a a tight team I think we'll do it's a a tight team I think we'll do it's a a tight team I think we'll do great things I think we're early on you great things I think we're early on you great things I think we're early on you know my ambitions investment wise I've know my ambitions investment wise I've know my ambitions investment wise I've always wanted to uh I've I've always always wanted to uh I've I've always always wanted to uh I've I've always said I'd like to have a record as good said I'd like to have a record as good said I'd like to have a record as good as Warren buffets the problem is each as Warren buffets the problem is each as Warren buffets the problem is each year he adds on another year he's now in year he adds on another year he's now in year he adds on another year he's now in his 93rd year so I've got 36 more years his 93rd year so I've got 36 more years his 93rd year so I've got 36 more years uh to just get where he is and I think uh to just get where he is and I think uh to just get where he is and I think he's going to add a lot lot more years he's going to add a lot lot more years he's going to add a lot lot more years uh I'm excited about seeing what ner is uh I'm excited about seeing what ner is uh I'm excited about seeing what ner is going to produce um you know she's

going to produce um you know she's going to produce um you know she's building an incredible company they're building an incredible company they're building an incredible company they're trying to solve a lot of problems with trying to solve a lot of problems with trying to solve a lot of problems with respect to products and buildings and respect to products and buildings and respect to products and buildings and their impact on the environment her their impact on the environment her their impact on the environment her vision is how do we design products that vision is how do we design products that vision is how do we design products that by virtue of the products existence the by virtue of the products existence the by virtue of the products existence the world is a better place you know today world is a better place you know today world is a better place you know today uh you make you know her her world is a uh you make you know her her world is a uh you make you know her her world is a world where the existence of the new car world where the existence of the new car world where the existence of the new car actually is better for the environment actually is better for the environment actually is better for the environment than if the new car hadn't existed and than if the new car hadn't existed and than if the new car hadn't existed and think about that in every product scale think about that in every product scale think about that in every product scale that's what she's working on I don't that's what she's working on I don't that's what she's working on I don't want to give away too much but you're want to give away too much but you're want to give away too much but you're going to see some early examples of what going to see some early examples of what going to see some early examples of what she's working on uh so again I get she's working on uh so again I get she's working on uh so again I get excited about the excited about the excited about the future um and uh and crises are sort of future um and uh and crises are sort of future um and uh and crises are sort of a terrible thing to waste and we've had a terrible thing to waste and we've had a terrible thing to waste and we've had a number of these here I think this a number of these here I think this a number of these here I think this disaster in the Middle East my disaster in the Middle East my disaster in the Middle East my prediction is the next few months uh prediction is the next few months uh prediction is the next few months uh this war will largely be over in terms this war will largely be over in terms this war will largely be over in terms of getting rid of Hamas I think a uh I of getting rid of Hamas I think a uh I of getting rid of Hamas I think a uh I can Envision a world in which Saudi can Envision a world in which Saudi can Envision a world in which Saudi Arabia some of the other Gulf States Arabia some of the other Gulf States Arabia some of the other Gulf States come together take over the governance come together take over the governance come together take over the governance and reconstruction of of of Gaza and reconstruction of of of Gaza and reconstruction of of of Gaza security guarantees are put in place the security guarantees are put in place the security guarantees are put in place the Abraham Accords continue to grow a deal Abraham Accords continue to grow a deal Abraham Accords continue to grow a deal is made terrorists are is made terrorists are is made terrorists are ostracized um that this October 7th ostracized um that this October 7th ostracized um that this October 7th experience on uh the Harvard uh Penn MIT experience on uh the Harvard uh Penn MIT experience on uh the Harvard uh Penn MIT Columbia unfortunately other campuses is Columbia unfortunately other campuses is Columbia unfortunately other campuses is a wake-up call for universities a wake-up call for universities a wake-up call for universities generally um you know people see the generally um you know people see the generally um you know people see the problems with Dei but understand the

problems with Dei but understand the problems with Dei but understand the importance of diversity and and importance of diversity and and importance of diversity and and inclusion but not as a political inclusion but not as a political inclusion but not as a political movement but as a way um that we return movement but as a way um that we return movement but as a way um that we return to a meritocratic world where someone's to a meritocratic world where someone's to a meritocratic world where someone's background is relevant in understanding background is relevant in understanding background is relevant in understanding their contribution uh but it's not we their contribution uh but it's not we their contribution uh but it's not we don't have race quotas and things that don't have race quotas and things that don't have race quotas and things that were made illegal years ago actually were made illegal years ago actually were made illegal years ago actually being implemented uh in in organizations being implemented uh in in organizations being implemented uh in in organizations on campus so I think there's we can go on campus so I think there's we can go on campus so I think there's we can go through a corrective phase and I'm an through a corrective phase and I'm an through a corrective phase and I'm an optimist and I hope hope we get there so optimist and I hope hope we get there so optimist and I hope hope we get there so you have hope for the entirety of it you have hope for the entirety of it you have hope for the entirety of it even for Harvard I hope even even for even for Harvard I hope even even for even for Harvard I hope even even for Harvard it's generally hard to break 400 Harvard it's generally hard to break 400 Harvard it's generally hard to break 400 year old things well I share your hope year old things well I share your hope year old things well I share your hope and um you are a fascinating mind a and um you are a fascinating mind a and um you are a fascinating mind a brilliant mind persistent as you like to brilliant mind persistent as you like to brilliant mind persistent as you like to say and fearless The Fearless part is say and fearless The Fearless part is say and fearless The Fearless part is truly inspiring and this was an truly inspiring and this was an truly inspiring and this was an incredible conversation thank you thank incredible conversation thank you thank incredible conversation thank you thank you for talking today Bill thank you Lex you for talking today Bill thank you Lex you for talking today Bill thank you Lex thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with Bill Amman to support conversation with Bill Amman to support conversation with Bill Amman to support this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let sponsors in the description and now let sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from me leave you with some words from me leave you with some words from Jonathan Jonathan Jonathan Swift a wise person should have money in Swift a wise person should have money in Swift a wise person should have money in their head but not in their their head but not in their their head but not in their heart thank you for listening and hope heart thank you for listening and hope heart thank you for listening and hope to see you next