Sara Walker: Physics of Life, Time, Complexity, and Aliens | Lex Fridman Podcast #433

so you have an original life event it so you have an original life event it evolves for 4 billion years at least on evolves for 4 billion years at least on evolves for 4 billion years at least on our planet it evolves a technosphere the our planet it evolves a technosphere the our planet it evolves a technosphere the Technologies themselves start having Technologies themselves start having Technologies themselves start having this property we call life which is the this property we call life which is the this property we call life which is the phase we're undergoing now it solves the phase we're undergoing now it solves the phase we're undergoing now it solves the origin of itself and then it figures out origin of itself and then it figures out origin of itself and then it figures out how that process all works understands how that process all works understands how that process all works understands how to make more life and then can copy how to make more life and then can copy how to make more life and then can copy itself onto another planet so the whole itself onto another planet so the whole itself onto another planet so the whole structure can reproduce itself the following is a conversation itself the following is a conversation with Sarah Walker her third time in the with Sarah Walker her third time in the with Sarah Walker her third time in the podcast she is an astrobiologist and podcast she is an astrobiologist and podcast she is an astrobiologist and theoretical physicist interested in the theoretical physicist interested in the theoretical physicist interested in the origin of life and in discovering alien origin of life and in discovering alien origin of life and in discovering alien life on other worlds she has written an life on other worlds she has written an life on other worlds she has written an amazing new upcoming book titled life as amazing new upcoming book titled life as amazing new upcoming book titled life as no one knows it the physics of life's no one knows it the physics of life's no one knows it the physics of life's emergence this book is coming out on emergence this book is coming out on emergence this book is coming out on August 6th so please go pre-order it now August 6th so please go pre-order it now August 6th so please go pre-order it now it will blow your mind this is Al Le fre it will blow your mind this is Al Le fre it will blow your mind this is Al Le fre podcast to support it please check out podcast to support it please check out podcast to support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now dear friends here's Sarah dear friends here's Sarah dear friends here's Sarah Walker you open the book life as no one Walker you open the book life as no one Walker you open the book life as no one knows it the physics of life's emergence knows it the physics of life's emergence knows it the physics of life's emergence with a distinction between the with a distinction between the with a distinction between the materialists and the vitalists so what's materialists and the vitalists so what's materialists and the vitalists so what's the difference can you maybe Define the the difference can you maybe Define the the difference can you maybe Define the two I think the question there is about two I think the question there is about two I think the question there is about whether life can be whether life can be whether life can be described in terms of matter and you described in terms of matter and you described in terms of matter and you know physical physical things or whether know physical physical things or whether know physical physical things or whether there is

there is there is some other feature that's not physical some other feature that's not physical some other feature that's not physical that actually animates living things so that actually animates living things so that actually animates living things so for a long time people maybe have called for a long time people maybe have called for a long time people maybe have called that a soul it's been really hard to pin that a soul it's been really hard to pin that a soul it's been really hard to pin down what that is so I think the down what that is so I think the down what that is so I think the vitalist idea is really that it's it's vitalist idea is really that it's it's vitalist idea is really that it's it's kind of a dualistic interpretation that kind of a dualistic interpretation that kind of a dualistic interpretation that there's sort of the material properties there's sort of the material properties there's sort of the material properties but there's something else that animates but there's something else that animates but there's something else that animates life that is there when you're alive and life that is there when you're alive and life that is there when you're alive and it's not there when you're dead and it's not there when you're dead and it's not there when you're dead and materialists kind of don't think that materialists kind of don't think that materialists kind of don't think that there's anything really special about there's anything really special about there's anything really special about the matter of life and the material the matter of life and the material the matter of life and the material substrates that life is made out of so substrates that life is made out of so substrates that life is made out of so they disagree in some really fundamental they disagree in some really fundamental they disagree in some really fundamental points is there a gray area between the points is there a gray area between the points is there a gray area between the two like maybe all there is is matter two like maybe all there is is matter two like maybe all there is is matter but there's so much we don't know that but there's so much we don't know that but there's so much we don't know that there might as well be magic that that there might as well be magic that that there might as well be magic that that like whatever that magic that the like whatever that magic that the like whatever that magic that the vitalists see meaning like there's just vitalists see meaning like there's just vitalists see meaning like there's just so much mystery that it's really unfair so much mystery that it's really unfair so much mystery that it's really unfair to say that it's boring and understood to say that it's boring and understood to say that it's boring and understood and as simple as quote unquote physics and as simple as quote unquote physics and as simple as quote unquote physics yeah I think the entire universe is just yeah I think the entire universe is just yeah I think the entire universe is just a giant mystery um I guess that's what a giant mystery um I guess that's what a giant mystery um I guess that's what motivates me as a scientist and so often motivates me as a scientist and so often motivates me as a scientist and so often times when I look at open problems like times when I look at open problems like times when I look at open problems like the nature of life or Consciousness or the nature of life or Consciousness or the nature of life or Consciousness or you know what is intelligence or are you know what is intelligence or are you know what is intelligence or are there souls or whatever whatever there souls or whatever whatever there souls or whatever whatever question that we have that we feel like question that we have that we feel like question that we have that we feel like we aren't even on the tip of answering we aren't even on the tip of answering we aren't even on the tip of answering yet I think you know we have a lot more yet I think you know we have a lot more yet I think you know we have a lot more work to do to really understand the work to do to really understand the work to do to really understand the answers to these questions so it's not answers to these questions so it's not answers to these questions so it's not magic it's just the unknown and I think

magic it's just the unknown and I think magic it's just the unknown and I think a lot of the history of humans coming to a lot of the history of humans coming to a lot of the history of humans coming to understand the world around us has been understand the world around us has been understand the world around us has been taking ideas that we once thought were taking ideas that we once thought were taking ideas that we once thought were magic or Supernatural and really magic or Supernatural and really magic or Supernatural and really understanding them in a much deeper way understanding them in a much deeper way understanding them in a much deeper way um that we learn what those things are um that we learn what those things are um that we learn what those things are and they still have an air of mystery and they still have an air of mystery and they still have an air of mystery even when we understand them there's even when we understand them there's even when we understand them there's there's no there's no sort of bottom to there's no there's no sort of bottom to there's no there's no sort of bottom to our understanding our understanding our understanding so do you think the vitalists have a so do you think the vitalists have a so do you think the vitalists have a point that they're uh more eager and point that they're uh more eager and point that they're uh more eager and able to notice the magic of life I think able to notice the magic of life I think able to notice the magic of life I think that no tradition vitalists included is that no tradition vitalists included is that no tradition vitalists included is ever fully wrong about the nature of the ever fully wrong about the nature of the ever fully wrong about the nature of the things that they're describing so a lot things that they're describing so a lot things that they're describing so a lot of times when I look at different ways of times when I look at different ways of times when I look at different ways that people have described things across that people have described things across that people have described things across human history across different cultures human history across different cultures human history across different cultures there's always a seed of Truth in them there's always a seed of Truth in them there's always a seed of Truth in them and I think it's really important to try and I think it's really important to try and I think it's really important to try to look for those because if there are to look for those because if there are to look for those because if there are narratives that humans have been telling narratives that humans have been telling narratives that humans have been telling ourselves uh for thousands of years for ourselves uh for thousands of years for ourselves uh for thousands of years for thousands of generations there must be thousands of generations there must be thousands of generations there must be some truth to them you know we've been some truth to them you know we've been some truth to them you know we've been learning about learning about learning about reality um for a really long time um and reality um for a really long time um and reality um for a really long time um and we recognize the patterns that reality we recognize the patterns that reality we recognize the patterns that reality presents us we don't always understand presents us we don't always understand presents us we don't always understand what those patterns are and so I think what those patterns are and so I think what those patterns are and so I think it's really important to pay attention it's really important to pay attention it's really important to pay attention to that so I don't think the vitalists to that so I don't think the vitalists to that so I don't think the vitalists were actually wrong and a lot of what I were actually wrong and a lot of what I were actually wrong and a lot of what I talk about in the book but also I think talk about in the book but also I think talk about in the book but also I think about a lot just professionally is the about a lot just professionally is the about a lot just professionally is the nature of our definitions of what's nature of our definitions of what's nature of our definitions of what's material and how science has come to material and how science has come to material and how science has come to invent the concept of matter and that invent the concept of matter and that invent the concept of matter and that some of those things actually really are

some of those things actually really are some of those things actually really are inventions that happened in a particular inventions that happened in a particular inventions that happened in a particular time in a particular technology that time in a particular technology that time in a particular technology that could learn about certain patterns and could learn about certain patterns and could learn about certain patterns and help us understand them and that there help us understand them and that there help us understand them and that there are some patterns we still don't are some patterns we still don't are some patterns we still don't understand and if we knew how understand and if we knew how understand and if we knew how to uh measure those things or we knew to uh measure those things or we knew to uh measure those things or we knew how to describe them uh in a more how to describe them uh in a more how to describe them uh in a more rigorous way we would realize that the rigorous way we would realize that the rigorous way we would realize that the material World matter has more material World matter has more material World matter has more properties than we thought that it did properties than we thought that it did properties than we thought that it did and one of those might be associated and one of those might be associated and one of those might be associated with the thing that we call life life with the thing that we call life life with the thing that we call life life could be a material property and still could be a material property and still could be a material property and still have a lot of the features that the have a lot of the features that the have a lot of the features that the vitalist thought were mysterious so we vitalist thought were mysterious so we vitalist thought were mysterious so we may still expand our understanding what may still expand our understanding what may still expand our understanding what is Incorporated in the category of is Incorporated in the category of is Incorporated in the category of matter that will eventually incorporate matter that will eventually incorporate matter that will eventually incorporate such magical things that the vitalists such magical things that the vitalists such magical things that the vitalists have noticed like life yeah so I think have noticed like life yeah so I think have noticed like life yeah so I think about um I always like to use examples about um I always like to use examples about um I always like to use examples from physics so I'll from physics so I'll from physics so I'll do that to like like it's just my it's do that to like like it's just my it's do that to like like it's just my it's my go-to place um but you know in in the my go-to place um but you know in in the my go-to place um but you know in in the history of gravitational physics for history of gravitational physics for history of gravitational physics for example in the history of motion you example in the history of motion you example in the history of motion you know like when Aristotle came up with know like when Aristotle came up with know like when Aristotle came up with his theories of motion he did it by the his theories of motion he did it by the his theories of motion he did it by the material properties he thought things material properties he thought things material properties he thought things had so there was a concept of things had so there was a concept of things had so there was a concept of things falling to Earth because they were solid falling to Earth because they were solid falling to Earth because they were solid like and things raising to the heavens like and things raising to the heavens like and things raising to the heavens because they were air likee and things because they were air likee and things because they were air likee and things moving around the planet cuz they were moving around the planet cuz they were moving around the planet cuz they were Celestial like but then we came to Celestial like but then we came to Celestial like but then we came to realize that thousands of years later realize that thousands of years later realize that thousands of years later and after the invention of many and after the invention of many and after the invention of many technologies that allowed us to actually technologies that allowed us to actually technologies that allowed us to actually measure um time in a mechanistic way and measure um time in a mechanistic way and measure um time in a mechanistic way and track planetary motion uh and we could

track planetary motion uh and we could track planetary motion uh and we could you know roll balls down incline planes you know roll balls down incline planes you know roll balls down incline planes and track that progress we realized that and track that progress we realized that and track that progress we realized that if we just talked about mass and if we just talked about mass and if we just talked about mass and acceleration we could unify all Motion acceleration we could unify all Motion acceleration we could unify all Motion in the universe in a really simple in the universe in a really simple in the universe in a really simple description um so we didn't really have description um so we didn't really have description um so we didn't really have to worry about the fact that my cup is to worry about the fact that my cup is to worry about the fact that my cup is heavy and the air is light like the same heavy and the air is light like the same heavy and the air is light like the same laws describe them um if we have the laws describe them um if we have the laws describe them um if we have the right material properties to talk about right material properties to talk about right material properties to talk about what those laws are actually interacting what those laws are actually interacting what those laws are actually interacting with and so I think the issue with life with and so I think the issue with life with and so I think the issue with life is we don't know how to think about is we don't know how to think about is we don't know how to think about information in a material way and so we information in a material way and so we information in a material way and so we haven't been able to build a unified haven't been able to build a unified haven't been able to build a unified description of what life is or the kind description of what life is or the kind description of what life is or the kind of things that Evolution builds um of things that Evolution builds um of things that Evolution builds um because we haven't really invented the because we haven't really invented the because we haven't really invented the right material concept yet so when right material concept yet so when right material concept yet so when talking about motion the laws of physics talking about motion the laws of physics talking about motion the laws of physics appear to be the same everywhere in the appear to be the same everywhere in the appear to be the same everywhere in the universe you think the same is true for universe you think the same is true for universe you think the same is true for other kinds of matter that we might other kinds of matter that we might other kinds of matter that we might eventually include life eventually include life eventually include life in I think life obeys Universal in I think life obeys Universal in I think life obeys Universal principles I think there is some deep principles I think there is some deep principles I think there is some deep underlying exploratory framework that underlying exploratory framework that underlying exploratory framework that will tell us about the nature of life in will tell us about the nature of life in will tell us about the nature of life in the universe and will allow us to the universe and will allow us to the universe and will allow us to identify life that we can't yet identify life that we can't yet identify life that we can't yet recognize um because it's too different recognize um because it's too different recognize um because it's too different you write about the Paradox of the you write about the Paradox of the you write about the Paradox of the finding life why does it seem to be so finding life why does it seem to be so finding life why does it seem to be so easy and so complicated at the same time easy and so complicated at the same time easy and so complicated at the same time you know all the sort of classic you know all the sort of classic you know all the sort of classic definitions people want to use just definitions people want to use just definitions people want to use just don't work they don't work in all cases

don't work they don't work in all cases don't work they don't work in all cases so uh Carl Sean had this wonderful essay so uh Carl Sean had this wonderful essay so uh Carl Sean had this wonderful essay on definitions of life where I think he on definitions of life where I think he on definitions of life where I think he talks about aliens coming from another talks about aliens coming from another talks about aliens coming from another planet if they saw Earth they might planet if they saw Earth they might planet if they saw Earth they might think that cars were the dominant life think that cars were the dominant life think that cars were the dominant life form because there's so many of them on form because there's so many of them on form because there's so many of them on our planet and like humans are inside our planet and like humans are inside our planet and like humans are inside them and you might want to exclude them and you might want to exclude them and you might want to exclude machines uh but any definition you know machines uh but any definition you know machines uh but any definition you know like classic biology textbook like classic biology textbook like classic biology textbook definitions would also include them and definitions would also include them and definitions would also include them and so you know he wanted to draw a boundary so you know he wanted to draw a boundary so you know he wanted to draw a boundary between uh these kind of things by between uh these kind of things by between uh these kind of things by trying to uh exclude them but they were trying to uh exclude them but they were trying to uh exclude them but they were naturally included by the definitions naturally included by the definitions naturally included by the definitions people want to give and in fact what he people want to give and in fact what he people want to give and in fact what he ended up pointing out is that all of the ended up pointing out is that all of the ended up pointing out is that all of the definitions of life that we have whether definitions of life that we have whether definitions of life that we have whether it's life is a self-reproducing system it's life is a self-reproducing system it's life is a self-reproducing system or life eats to survive or life requires or life eats to survive or life requires or life eats to survive or life requires compartments whatever it is there's compartments whatever it is there's compartments whatever it is there's always a counter example that challenges always a counter example that challenges always a counter example that challenges that definition this is why viruses are that definition this is why viruses are that definition this is why viruses are so hard or why fire is so hard and so uh so hard or why fire is so hard and so uh so hard or why fire is so hard and so uh we've had a really hard time trying to we've had a really hard time trying to we've had a really hard time trying to pin down from a definitional perspective pin down from a definitional perspective pin down from a definitional perspective exactly what life is yeah you actually exactly what life is yeah you actually exactly what life is yeah you actually bring up the the zombie an fungus I bring up the the zombie an fungus I bring up the the zombie an fungus I enjoyed looking at this thing as an enjoyed looking at this thing as an enjoyed looking at this thing as an example of one of the challenges example of one of the challenges example of one of the challenges mentioned viruses but this this is a mentioned viruses but this this is a mentioned viruses but this this is a parasite look at that did you see this parasite look at that did you see this parasite look at that did you see this in the jungle infects ants actually one in the jungle infects ants actually one in the jungle infects ants actually one of the interesting things about the of the interesting things about the of the interesting things about the jungle Jungle everything is Emeral like jungle Jungle everything is Emeral like jungle Jungle everything is Emeral like everything eats everything really everything eats everything really everything eats everything really quickly so if you uh if an organism dies quickly so if you uh if an organism dies quickly so if you uh if an organism dies uh that organism disappears isn't yeah uh that organism disappears isn't yeah uh that organism disappears isn't yeah it's a machine that doesn't have

it's a machine that doesn't have it's a machine that doesn't have uh I wanted to say doesn't have a memory uh I wanted to say doesn't have a memory uh I wanted to say doesn't have a memory or history which is interesting given or history which is interesting given or history which is interesting given your work on history in defining a your work on history in defining a your work on history in defining a living being the jungle forgets very living being the jungle forgets very living being the jungle forgets very quickly it wants to erase the fact that quickly it wants to erase the fact that quickly it wants to erase the fact that you existed very quickly yeah but it you existed very quickly yeah but it you existed very quickly yeah but it can't erase said it's just restructuring can't erase said it's just restructuring can't erase said it's just restructuring it and I think the other thing that is it and I think the other thing that is it and I think the other thing that is really you know Vivid to me about this really you know Vivid to me about this really you know Vivid to me about this example that you're giving is how much example that you're giving is how much example that you're giving is how much death is necessary for life so I I worry death is necessary for life so I I worry death is necessary for life so I I worry a bit about um Notions of immortality a bit about um Notions of immortality a bit about um Notions of immortality and whether immortality is a good thing and whether immortality is a good thing and whether immortality is a good thing or not um so I have sort of a broad or not um so I have sort of a broad or not um so I have sort of a broad conception that life is the only thing conception that life is the only thing conception that life is the only thing the universe uh generates that actually the universe uh generates that actually the universe uh generates that actually has even the potential to be immortal has even the potential to be immortal has even the potential to be immortal but that's as like this sort of process but that's as like this sort of process but that's as like this sort of process that you're describing where life is that you're describing where life is that you're describing where life is about memory and historical contingency about memory and historical contingency about memory and historical contingency and construction of new possibilities and construction of new possibilities and construction of new possibilities but when you look at any instance of but when you look at any instance of but when you look at any instance of life especially one as dynamic as what life especially one as dynamic as what life especially one as dynamic as what you're describing it's a constant birth you're describing it's a constant birth you're describing it's a constant birth and death process but that birth and and death process but that birth and and death process but that birth and death process is like the way that the death process is like the way that the death process is like the way that the Universe can explore what possibilities Universe can explore what possibilities Universe can explore what possibilities can exist and not everything not every can exist and not everything not every can exist and not everything not every possible human or every possible ant or possible human or every possible ant or possible human or every possible ant or every possible zombie ant or every every possible zombie ant or every every possible zombie ant or every possible tree will ever live so it's uh possible tree will ever live so it's uh possible tree will ever live so it's uh you know it's an incredibly Dynamic and you know it's an incredibly Dynamic and you know it's an incredibly Dynamic and creative place because of all that death creative place because of all that death creative place because of all that death so does this thing this is a parasite so does this thing this is a parasite so does this thing this is a parasite that needs the ant so is this a living that needs the ant so is this a living that needs the ant so is this a living thing or is this not a living thing so thing or is this not a living thing so thing or is this not a living thing so this is yeah so it just pierces the ant

this is yeah so it just pierces the ant this is yeah so it just pierces the ant I mean it it right and I've seen a lot I mean it it right and I've seen a lot I mean it it right and I've seen a lot of this by the way um organisms working of this by the way um organisms working of this by the way um organisms working together in the jungle like ants together in the jungle like ants together in the jungle like ants protecting a delicious piece of fruit so protecting a delicious piece of fruit so protecting a delicious piece of fruit so they need the fruit but like if you they need the fruit but like if you they need the fruit but like if you touch that fruit they're going to touch that fruit they're going to touch that fruit they're going to like the forces emerge they're fighting like the forces emerge they're fighting like the forces emerge they're fighting you they're defending that fruit right you they're defending that fruit right you they're defending that fruit right to the death it just nature seems to to the death it just nature seems to to the death it just nature seems to find mutual benefits right yeah it does find mutual benefits right yeah it does find mutual benefits right yeah it does um I I think the thing that's perplexing um I I think the thing that's perplexing um I I think the thing that's perplexing for me about these kind of examples is for me about these kind of examples is for me about these kind of examples is you know effectively the ant's dead but you know effectively the ant's dead but you know effectively the ant's dead but it's staying alive now because it's it's staying alive now because it's it's staying alive now because it's piloted by this fungus and so that gets piloted by this fungus and so that gets piloted by this fungus and so that gets back to this you know thing that we were back to this you know thing that we were back to this you know thing that we were talking about a few minutes ago about talking about a few minutes ago about talking about a few minutes ago about how the boundary of life is really hard how the boundary of life is really hard how the boundary of life is really hard to Define so you know anytime that you to Define so you know anytime that you to Define so you know anytime that you want to draw a boundary around something want to draw a boundary around something want to draw a boundary around something and you say this feature is the thing and you say this feature is the thing and you say this feature is the thing that makes us alive or this thing is that makes us alive or this thing is that makes us alive or this thing is alive on its own there's not ever really alive on its own there's not ever really alive on its own there's not ever really a clear boundary and these kind of a clear boundary and these kind of a clear boundary and these kind of examples are really good at showing that examples are really good at showing that examples are really good at showing that because it it's like the thing that you because it it's like the thing that you because it it's like the thing that you would have thought is the living would have thought is the living would have thought is the living organism is now dead except that it has organism is now dead except that it has organism is now dead except that it has another living organism that's piloting another living organism that's piloting another living organism that's piloting it so the two of them together are alive it so the two of them together are alive it so the two of them together are alive and some sense but they're you know now and some sense but they're you know now and some sense but they're you know now in this kind of weird symbiotic in this kind of weird symbiotic in this kind of weird symbiotic relationship that's taking this an to relationship that's taking this an to relationship that's taking this an to its death so what do you do with that in its death so what do you do with that in its death so what do you do with that in terms of when you try to Define life I terms of when you try to Define life I terms of when you try to Define life I think we have to get rid of the notion think we have to get rid of the notion think we have to get rid of the notion of an individual as being of an individual as being of an individual as being relevant and this is really difficult relevant and this is really difficult relevant and this is really difficult because you know a lot of the ways that because you know a lot of the ways that because you know a lot of the ways that we think about life like the fundamental we think about life like the fundamental we think about life like the fundamental unit of life is the cell individuals are

unit of life is the cell individuals are unit of life is the cell individuals are alive um but we don't think about how alive um but we don't think about how alive um but we don't think about how how gray that distinction is so for how gray that distinction is so for how gray that distinction is so for example um you might consider you know example um you might consider you know example um you might consider you know self- reproduction to be the most most self- reproduction to be the most most self- reproduction to be the most most defining feature of Life a lot of people defining feature of Life a lot of people defining feature of Life a lot of people do actually like you know one of these do actually like you know one of these do actually like you know one of these standard different definitions that a standard different definitions that a standard different definitions that a lot of people may feel like to use in lot of people may feel like to use in lot of people may feel like to use in astrobiology is life is a astrobiology is life is a astrobiology is life is a self-sustaining chemical system capable self-sustaining chemical system capable self-sustaining chemical system capable of darwinian evolution which I was once of darwinian evolution which I was once of darwinian evolution which I was once quoted as agreeing with and I was really quoted as agreeing with and I was really quoted as agreeing with and I was really offended um because I hate that offended um because I hate that offended um because I hate that definition I think it's terrible um and definition I think it's terrible um and definition I think it's terrible um and I think it's terrible that people use it I think it's terrible that people use it I think it's terrible that people use it I think like every word in that I think like every word in that I think like every word in that definition is actually wrong as a definition is actually wrong as a definition is actually wrong as a descriptor of life life is a descriptor of life life is a descriptor of life life is a self-sustaining chemical system capable self-sustaining chemical system capable self-sustaining chemical system capable of darwinian evolution why is that that of darwinian evolution why is that that of darwinian evolution why is that that seems like a pretty good yeah I know if seems like a pretty good yeah I know if seems like a pretty good yeah I know if you want to make me angry you can you want to make me angry you can you want to make me angry you can pretend I said pretend I said pretend I said that and believed it so self- sustaining that and believed it so self- sustaining that and believed it so self- sustaining uh chemical system darwinian Evolution uh chemical system darwinian Evolution uh chemical system darwinian Evolution what is self- sustaining what's what what is self- sustaining what's what what is self- sustaining what's what what's so frustrating I mean which what's so frustrating I mean which what's so frustrating I mean which aspect is frustrating to you but it's aspect is frustrating to you but it's aspect is frustrating to you but it's also those are very interesting words also those are very interesting words also those are very interesting words yeah they're all interesting words um yeah they're all interesting words um yeah they're all interesting words um and you know together they sound really and you know together they sound really and you know together they sound really smart and they sound like they box in smart and they sound like they box in smart and they sound like they box in what life is but you can use any of this what life is but you can use any of this what life is but you can use any of this any of the words individually and you any of the words individually and you any of the words individually and you can come up with counter examples that can come up with counter examples that can come up with counter examples that don't fulfill that property the self don't fulfill that property the self don't fulfill that property the self sustaining one is really interesting sustaining one is really interesting sustaining one is really interesting thinking about um humans right like thinking about um humans right like thinking about um humans right like we're not self- sustaining we're we're not self- sustaining we're we're not self- sustaining we're dependent on societies and so you know I dependent on societies and so you know I dependent on societies and so you know I find it paradoxical that you know it find it paradoxical that you know it find it paradoxical that you know it might be that societies because their might be that societies because their might be that societies because their self-sustaining units are now more alive self-sustaining units are now more alive self-sustaining units are now more alive than individuals are and that could be

than individuals are and that could be than individuals are and that could be the case but I still think we have some the case but I still think we have some the case but I still think we have some property associated with life I mean property associated with life I mean property associated with life I mean that's the thing that we're trying to that's the thing that we're trying to that's the thing that we're trying to describe so that one's quite hard and in describe so that one's quite hard and in describe so that one's quite hard and in general you know no organism is really general you know no organism is really general you know no organism is really self- sustaining they always require an self- sustaining they always require an self- sustaining they always require an environment so being self-sustaining is environment so being self-sustaining is environment so being self-sustaining is coupled in some sense to the world coupled in some sense to the world coupled in some sense to the world around you uh we don't live in a vacuum around you uh we don't live in a vacuum around you uh we don't live in a vacuum um so so that part's already challenging um so so that part's already challenging um so so that part's already challenging and then you can go to chemical system I and then you can go to chemical system I and then you can go to chemical system I don't think that's good either I think don't think that's good either I think don't think that's good either I think there's a confusion because life emerges there's a confusion because life emerges there's a confusion because life emerges in chemistry that life is chemical I in chemistry that life is chemical I in chemistry that life is chemical I don't think life is chemical I think don't think life is chemical I think don't think life is chemical I think life emerges in chemistry because life emerges in chemistry because life emerges in chemistry because chemistry is the first thing the chemistry is the first thing the chemistry is the first thing the universe builds where it cannot exhaust universe builds where it cannot exhaust universe builds where it cannot exhaust all the possibilities because the all the possibilities because the all the possibilities because the combinatorial space of chemistry is too combinatorial space of chemistry is too combinatorial space of chemistry is too large well but is it possible to have a large well but is it possible to have a large well but is it possible to have a life that is not a chemical system yes life that is not a chemical system yes life that is not a chemical system yes well there's a guy I know named Lee well there's a guy I know named Lee well there's a guy I know named Lee Cronin has been on a podcast a couple Cronin has been on a podcast a couple Cronin has been on a podcast a couple times who just got really pissed off times who just got really pissed off times who just got really pissed off listen he probably got really pissed off listen he probably got really pissed off listen he probably got really pissed off hearing that I for people somehow don't hearing that I for people somehow don't hearing that I for people somehow don't know he's a chemist yeah but he would know he's a chemist yeah but he would know he's a chemist yeah but he would agree with that statement would he I agree with that statement would he I agree with that statement would he I don't think he would I don't think he don't think he would I don't think he don't think he would I don't think he would he would broaden the definition of would he would broaden the definition of would he would broaden the definition of chemistry until it would include chemistry until it would include chemistry until it would include everything oh sure okay so you or maybe everything oh sure okay so you or maybe everything oh sure okay so you or maybe I don't know but wait but you said that I don't know but wait but you said that I don't know but wait but you said that universe that's the first thing it universe that's the first thing it universe that's the first thing it creates is chemistry we're the very creates is chemistry we're the very creates is chemistry we're the very precisely it's not the first thing it precisely it's not the first thing it precisely it's not the first thing it creates obviously like it has to make creates obviously like it has to make creates obviously like it has to make atoms first but it's the first thing atoms first but it's the first thing atoms first but it's the first thing like if you think about you know the like if you think about you know the like if you think about you know the universe originated uh atoms were made universe originated uh atoms were made universe originated uh atoms were made in you know Big Bang nuclear synthesis

in you know Big Bang nuclear synthesis in you know Big Bang nuclear synthesis and then later in stars and then planets and then later in stars and then planets and then later in stars and then planets formed and planets become engines of formed and planets become engines of formed and planets become engines of chemistry they start exploring what kind chemistry they start exploring what kind chemistry they start exploring what kind of chemistry is possible and the of chemistry is possible and the of chemistry is possible and the combinatorial space of chemistry is so combinatorial space of chemistry is so combinatorial space of chemistry is so large that even on every planet in the large that even on every planet in the large that even on every planet in the entire universe you will never express entire universe you will never express entire universe you will never express every possible molecule um I I like this every possible molecule um I I like this every possible molecule um I I like this example actually that that Lee gave me example actually that that Lee gave me example actually that that Lee gave me which is to think about taol it has a which is to think about taol it has a which is to think about taol it has a molecular weight about molecular weight about molecular weight about 853 it's got you know a lot of atoms but 853 it's got you know a lot of atoms but 853 it's got you know a lot of atoms but it's not astronomically large and if you it's not astronomically large and if you it's not astronomically large and if you try to make um one molecule uh with that try to make um one molecule uh with that try to make um one molecule uh with that molecular formula in every molecular formula in every molecular formula in every three-dimensional shape you could make three-dimensional shape you could make three-dimensional shape you could make with that molecular formula it would with that molecular formula it would with that molecular formula it would fill fill fill 1.5 universes in volume so that with one 1.5 universes in volume so that with one 1.5 universes in volume so that with one unique molecule that's just one molecule unique molecule that's just one molecule unique molecule that's just one molecule so chemical space is huge um and I think so chemical space is huge um and I think so chemical space is huge um and I think it's really important to recognize that it's really important to recognize that it's really important to recognize that because if you want to ask a question of because if you want to ask a question of because if you want to ask a question of why does life emerge in chemistry well why does life emerge in chemistry well why does life emerge in chemistry well life emerges in chemistry because life life emerges in chemistry because life life emerges in chemistry because life is the physics of how the universe is the physics of how the universe is the physics of how the universe selects what gets to exist um and those selects what gets to exist um and those selects what gets to exist um and those things get created along historically things get created along historically things get created along historically contingent pathways and memory and all contingent pathways and memory and all contingent pathways and memory and all the other stuff that we can talk about the other stuff that we can talk about the other stuff that we can talk about um but the universe has to actually make um but the universe has to actually make um but the universe has to actually make historically contingent choices in historically contingent choices in historically contingent choices in chemistry because it can't exhaust all chemistry because it can't exhaust all chemistry because it can't exhaust all possible molecules what kind of things possible molecules what kind of things possible molecules what kind of things can you create that's outside the the can you create that's outside the the can you create that's outside the the combinatorial space of chemistry that's combinatorial space of chemistry that's combinatorial space of chemistry that's what I'm trying to understand oh if it's what I'm trying to understand oh if it's what I'm trying to understand oh if it's not chemical so I think some of the

not chemical so I think some of the not chemical so I think some of the things that have evolved on our things that have evolved on our things that have evolved on our biosphere I would call as much alive as biosphere I would call as much alive as biosphere I would call as much alive as chemistry as a cell um but they seem chemistry as a cell um but they seem chemistry as a cell um but they seem much more abstract so for example I much more abstract so for example I much more abstract so for example I think language is alive I think um or at think language is alive I think um or at think language is alive I think um or at least life um I think memes are I think least life um I think memes are I think least life um I think memes are I think you're saying language is life yes you're saying language is life yes you're saying language is life yes language is alive oh boy I'm going to language is alive oh boy I'm going to language is alive oh boy I'm going to have to explore that have to explore that have to explore that one okay life Maybe not maybe not alive one okay life Maybe not maybe not alive one okay life Maybe not maybe not alive but I don't I actually I don't know but I don't I actually I don't know but I don't I actually I don't know where I stand exactly on that um I've where I stand exactly on that um I've where I stand exactly on that um I've been thinking about that a little bit been thinking about that a little bit been thinking about that a little bit more lately but mathematics too um and more lately but mathematics too um and more lately but mathematics too um and it's interesting because people think it's interesting because people think it's interesting because people think that math has this platonic reality that that math has this platonic reality that that math has this platonic reality that exists outside of our universe and I exists outside of our universe and I exists outside of our universe and I think it's a feature of our biosphere think it's a feature of our biosphere think it's a feature of our biosphere and it's telling us something about the and it's telling us something about the and it's telling us something about the structure of structure of structure of ourselves um and I find that really ourselves um and I find that really ourselves um and I find that really interesting because when you would sort interesting because when you would sort interesting because when you would sort of internalize all of these things that of internalize all of these things that of internalize all of these things that we notice about the world and you start we notice about the world and you start we notice about the world and you start asking well what do these look like if I asking well what do these look like if I asking well what do these look like if I was you know something outside of myself was you know something outside of myself was you know something outside of myself observing these systems that we're all observing these systems that we're all observing these systems that we're all embedded in what would that structure embedded in what would that structure embedded in what would that structure look like and I think we look really look like and I think we look really look like and I think we look really different than the way that we talk different than the way that we talk different than the way that we talk about what we look like to each other about what we look like to each other about what we look like to each other what do you think a living organism in what do you think a living organism in what do you think a living organism in math is is it one exatic system or is it math is is it one exatic system or is it math is is it one exatic system or is it individual theorems or is individual theorems or is individual theorems or is it the fact that it's um open-ended in it the fact that it's um open-ended in it the fact that it's um open-ended in some sense it's it's another open-ended some sense it's it's another open-ended some sense it's it's another open-ended uh combinatorial space and the recursive uh combinatorial space and the recursive uh combinatorial space and the recursive properties of it allow creativity to properties of it allow creativity to properties of it allow creativity to happen uh which is what you see with you

happen uh which is what you see with you happen uh which is what you see with you know like the revolution in the last know like the revolution in the last know like the revolution in the last century with girdle theorem and Turing century with girdle theorem and Turing century with girdle theorem and Turing and you know there's there's clear and you know there's there's clear and you know there's there's clear places is where mathematics notices places is where mathematics notices places is where mathematics notices holes in the universe so it seems like holes in the universe so it seems like holes in the universe so it seems like you're sneaking up on a different kind you're sneaking up on a different kind you're sneaking up on a different kind of definition of Life open-ended large of definition of Life open-ended large of definition of Life open-ended large combinatorial space yeah room for combinatorial space yeah room for combinatorial space yeah room for creativity definitely not chemical I creativity definitely not chemical I creativity definitely not chemical I mean chemistry is one subed to chem mean chemistry is one subed to chem mean chemistry is one subed to chem chemical okay what about the third thing chemical okay what about the third thing chemical okay what about the third thing which I think would be the the hardest which I think would be the the hardest which I think would be the the hardest CU you probably like it the most is CU you probably like it the most is CU you probably like it the most is evolution or selection well specifically evolution or selection well specifically evolution or selection well specifically it's darwinian Evolution and I think it's darwinian Evolution and I think it's darwinian Evolution and I think darwinian evolution is a problem but the darwinian evolution is a problem but the darwinian evolution is a problem but the reason that that definition is a problem reason that that definition is a problem reason that that definition is a problem is not because evolution is in the is not because evolution is in the is not because evolution is in the definition but because the implication definition but because the implication definition but because the implication is that you know that PE most people is that you know that PE most people is that you know that PE most people would want to make is that an individual would want to make is that an individual would want to make is that an individual is alive and The evolutionary process at is alive and The evolutionary process at is alive and The evolutionary process at least the darwinian evolutionary process least the darwinian evolutionary process least the darwinian evolutionary process most evolutionary processes they don't most evolutionary processes they don't most evolutionary processes they don't happen um at the level of individuals happen um at the level of individuals happen um at the level of individuals they happen at the level of populations they happen at the level of populations they happen at the level of populations so again you would be saying something so again you would be saying something so again you would be saying something like what we saw with the self- like what we saw with the self- like what we saw with the self- sustaining definition which is that sustaining definition which is that sustaining definition which is that population are alive but individuals population are alive but individuals population are alive but individuals aren't because populations evolve and aren't because populations evolve and aren't because populations evolve and individuals don't and obviously like individuals don't and obviously like individuals don't and obviously like maybe you're alive because you know your maybe you're alive because you know your maybe you're alive because you know your gut microbiome is evolving but Lex as an gut microbiome is evolving but Lex as an gut microbiome is evolving but Lex as an entity right now is not evolving by entity right now is not evolving by entity right now is not evolving by canonical theories of evolution in canonical theories of evolution in canonical theories of evolution in assembly Theory which is attempting to assembly Theory which is attempting to assembly Theory which is attempting to explain life evolution is a much broader explain life evolution is a much broader explain life evolution is a much broader thing so so in an an individual organism

thing so so in an an individual organism thing so so in an an individual organism can evolve under assembly theory yes can evolve under assembly theory yes can evolve under assembly theory yes you're constructing yourself all the you're constructing yourself all the you're constructing yourself all the time assembly theory is about time assembly theory is about time assembly theory is about Construction How the Universe selects Construction How the Universe selects Construction How the Universe selects for things to exist what if you for things to exist what if you for things to exist what if you reformulate everything like a population reformulate everything like a population reformulate everything like a population is a living organism so that's fine too is a living organism so that's fine too is a living organism so that's fine too but but this again gets back to so um so but but this again gets back to so um so but but this again gets back to so um so I think what all of the you know like we I think what all of the you know like we I think what all of the you know like we can nitpick at definitions I don't think can nitpick at definitions I don't think can nitpick at definitions I don't think it's like incredibly helpful to do it it's like incredibly helpful to do it it's like incredibly helpful to do it but the reason for for me fun yeah it is but the reason for for me fun yeah it is but the reason for for me fun yeah it is fun it is really fun and actually do I fun it is really fun and actually do I fun it is really fun and actually do I do think it's useful in the sense that do think it's useful in the sense that do think it's useful in the sense that when you see the way the ways that they when you see the way the ways that they when you see the way the ways that they all break down um you either have to all break down um you either have to all break down um you either have to keep forcing in your like sort of keep forcing in your like sort of keep forcing in your like sort of conception of life you want to have or conception of life you want to have or conception of life you want to have or you have to say all these definitions you have to say all these definitions you have to say all these definitions are breaking down for a reason maybe I are breaking down for a reason maybe I are breaking down for a reason maybe I should adopt a more expansive definition should adopt a more expansive definition should adopt a more expansive definition that encompasses all the things that I that encompasses all the things that I that encompasses all the things that I think and are life and so for me I think think and are life and so for me I think think and are life and so for me I think life is the process of how information life is the process of how information life is the process of how information structures matter over time and space structures matter over time and space structures matter over time and space and an an example of life is what and an an example of life is what and an an example of life is what emerges on a planet and yields an emerges on a planet and yields an emerges on a planet and yields an open-ended Cascade of generation of open-ended Cascade of generation of open-ended Cascade of generation of structure and increasing complexity and structure and increasing complexity and structure and increasing complexity and this is the thing that life is and any this is the thing that life is and any this is the thing that life is and any individual is just a particular instance individual is just a particular instance individual is just a particular instance of these of these of these lineages that are you know structured lineages that are you know structured lineages that are you know structured across time um and so we focus so much across time um and so we focus so much across time um and so we focus so much on these individuals that are these on these individuals that are these on these individuals that are these short temporal moments in this L larger short temporal moments in this L larger short temporal moments in this L larger causal structure that actually is the causal structure that actually is the causal structure that actually is the life on our planet um and I think that's life on our planet um and I think that's life on our planet um and I think that's why these definitions break down because why these definitions break down because why these definitions break down because they're not General enough they're not

they're not General enough they're not they're not General enough they're not Universal enough they're not deep enough Universal enough they're not deep enough Universal enough they're not deep enough they're not abstract enough to actually they're not abstract enough to actually they're not abstract enough to actually capture that regularity cuz were focused capture that regularity cuz were focused capture that regularity cuz were focused on those that little affir thing that we on those that little affir thing that we on those that little affir thing that we call human life Aristotle focusing on call human life Aristotle focusing on call human life Aristotle focusing on you know heavy things falling because you know heavy things falling because you know heavy things falling because they're earthlike and you know things they're earthlike and you know things they're earthlike and you know things floating because they're air likee it's floating because they're air likee it's floating because they're air likee it's the wrong thing to focus on so what what the wrong thing to focus on so what what the wrong thing to focus on so what what exactly are we missing by focusing on exactly are we missing by focusing on exactly are we missing by focusing on such a short span of time I think we're such a short span of time I think we're such a short span of time I think we're missing most of what we are so one of missing most of what we are so one of missing most of what we are so one of the issues I've been thinking about this the issues I've been thinking about this the issues I've been thinking about this all like really viscerally lately it's all like really viscerally lately it's all like really viscerally lately it's weird when you do theor physics cuz I weird when you do theor physics cuz I weird when you do theor physics cuz I think it like literally changes the think it like literally changes the think it like literally changes the structure of your brain and you see the structure of your brain and you see the structure of your brain and you see the world differently especially when you're world differently especially when you're world differently especially when you're trying to build new abstractions do you trying to build new abstractions do you trying to build new abstractions do you think it's possible if you're a think it's possible if you're a think it's possible if you're a theoretical physicist that like it's theoretical physicist that like it's theoretical physicist that like it's easy to fall off the cliff and go easy to fall off the cliff and go easy to fall off the cliff and go descend to Madness I mean I think you're descend to Madness I mean I think you're descend to Madness I mean I think you're always on the edge of it but I think always on the edge of it but I think always on the edge of it but I think what is amazing about being a scientist what is amazing about being a scientist what is amazing about being a scientist um and trying to do things rigorously is um and trying to do things rigorously is um and trying to do things rigorously is it keeps your sanity so I think if I it keeps your sanity so I think if I it keeps your sanity so I think if I wasn't a theoretical physicist I would I wasn't a theoretical physicist I would I wasn't a theoretical physicist I would I would be probably not saying would be probably not saying would be probably not saying um but what it forces you to do is hold um but what it forces you to do is hold um but what it forces you to do is hold the like you have to hold yourself to the like you have to hold yourself to the like you have to hold yourself to the fire of like these abstractions in the fire of like these abstractions in the fire of like these abstractions in my mind have to really correspond to my mind have to really correspond to my mind have to really correspond to reality and I have to really test that reality and I have to really test that reality and I have to really test that all the time and so I love building new all the time and so I love building new all the time and so I love building new abstractions and I love going to those abstractions and I love going to those abstractions and I love going to those like incredibly like incredibly like incredibly creative uh you know spaces that people creative uh you know spaces that people creative uh you know spaces that people don't don't don't see um as part of the way that we see um as part of the way that we see um as part of the way that we understand the world now but ultimately understand the world now but ultimately understand the world now but ultimately I have to make sure that whatever I'm

I have to make sure that whatever I'm I have to make sure that whatever I'm pulling from that space is something pulling from that space is something pulling from that space is something that's really usable and really like that's really usable and really like that's really usable and really like relates the world outside of me that's relates the world outside of me that's relates the world outside of me that's what science is so we were talking about what science is so we were talking about what science is so we were talking about what we're missing when we look at a what we're missing when we look at a what we're missing when we look at a small stretch of time in a small stretch small stretch of time in a small stretch small stretch of time in a small stretch of space yeah so the issue is um we of space yeah so the issue is um we of space yeah so the issue is um we evolve perception to see reality a evolve perception to see reality a evolve perception to see reality a certain way right so for us Space is certain way right so for us Space is certain way right so for us Space is really important and time feels bleeding really important and time feels bleeding really important and time feels bleeding and I I you know I had a really and I I you know I had a really and I I you know I had a really wonderful Mentor Paul Davies most of my wonderful Mentor Paul Davies most of my wonderful Mentor Paul Davies most of my career and Paul's amazing because he career and Paul's amazing because he career and Paul's amazing because he gives these like little he thought gives these like little he thought gives these like little he thought experiments all the time like you know experiments all the time like you know experiments all the time like you know something he used to ask me all the time something he used to ask me all the time something he used to ask me all the time was when I was a postto this is kind of was when I was a postto this is kind of was when I was a postto this is kind of a random tangent but was like you know a random tangent but was like you know a random tangent but was like you know how much of the universe be could be how much of the universe be could be how much of the universe be could be converted into technology if you were converted into technology if you were converted into technology if you were thinking about like you know long-term thinking about like you know long-term thinking about like you know long-term Futures and stuff like that and it's Futures and stuff like that and it's Futures and stuff like that and it's like a weird thought experiment but like like a weird thought experiment but like like a weird thought experiment but like there's a lot of deep things there I do there's a lot of deep things there I do there's a lot of deep things there I do think a lot about the fact that we're think a lot about the fact that we're think a lot about the fact that we're really limited in our interactions with really limited in our interactions with really limited in our interactions with reality by the particular architectures reality by the particular architectures reality by the particular architectures that we evolved um and so we're not that we evolved um and so we're not that we evolved um and so we're not seeing everything and in fact our seeing everything and in fact our seeing everything and in fact our technology tells us the solid time technology tells us the solid time technology tells us the solid time because it allows us to see the world in because it allows us to see the world in because it allows us to see the world in new ways um by basically allowing us to new ways um by basically allowing us to new ways um by basically allowing us to perceive the world in ways that we perceive the world in ways that we perceive the world in ways that we couldn't otherwise and so what I'm couldn't otherwise and so what I'm couldn't otherwise and so what I'm getting at with this is I think that getting at with this is I think that getting at with this is I think that living objects are actually huge like living objects are actually huge like living objects are actually huge like they're some of the biggest structures they're some of the biggest structures they're some of the biggest structures in the universe but they are not big in in the universe but they are not big in in the universe but they are not big in space they are big in time and we space they are big in time and we space they are big in time and we actually can't resolve that feature we actually can't resolve that feature we actually can't resolve that feature we don't interact with it on a regular don't interact with it on a regular don't interact with it on a regular basis so we see them as these fleeting

basis so we see them as these fleeting basis so we see them as these fleeting things that have this really short things that have this really short things that have this really short temporal clock time without seeing how temporal clock time without seeing how temporal clock time without seeing how large they are when I'm saying time here large they are when I'm saying time here large they are when I'm saying time here I really like the way that people could I really like the way that people could I really like the way that people could picture it is in terms of causal picture it is in terms of causal picture it is in terms of causal structure so if you think about the structure so if you think about the structure so if you think about the history of the universe to get to you history of the universe to get to you history of the universe to get to you and you imagine that that entire history and you imagine that that entire history and you imagine that that entire history is you that is the I the picture I have is you that is the I the picture I have is you that is the I the picture I have in my mind when I look at every living in my mind when I look at every living in my mind when I look at every living thing so you have a you have a tweet for thing so you have a you have a tweet for thing so you have a you have a tweet for everything you tweeted doesn't everyone everything you tweeted doesn't everyone everything you tweeted doesn't everyone you have a lot of poetic profound tweets you have a lot of poetic profound tweets you have a lot of poetic profound tweets um sometimes um sometimes um sometimes they're they're they're puzzles that take a long time to figure puzzles that take a long time to figure puzzles that take a long time to figure out well you know what it is the trick out well you know what it is the trick out well you know what it is the trick is the reason they're hard to write is is the reason they're hard to write is is the reason they're hard to write is because it's compressing a very deep because it's compressing a very deep because it's compressing a very deep idea into a short amount of space and I idea into a short amount of space and I idea into a short amount of space and I really like doing that intellectual really like doing that intellectual really like doing that intellectual exercise because I find it productive exercise because I find it productive exercise because I find it productive for me yeah it's a very interesting kind for me yeah it's a very interesting kind for me yeah it's a very interesting kind of compression algorithm though yeah I of compression algorithm though yeah I of compression algorithm though yeah I like language I think it's really fun to like language I think it's really fun to like language I think it's really fun to play with yeah I wonder if AI can uh play with yeah I wonder if AI can uh play with yeah I wonder if AI can uh decompress it that' be decompress it that' be decompress it that' be interesting I would like to try this but interesting I would like to try this but interesting I would like to try this but I think I use langu anguage in certain I think I use langu anguage in certain I think I use langu anguage in certain ways that are non-canonical and I do it ways that are non-canonical and I do it ways that are non-canonical and I do it very purposefully and it would be very purposefully and it would be very purposefully and it would be interesting to me how AI would interpret interesting to me how AI would interpret interesting to me how AI would interpret it yeah your tweets would be a good it yeah your tweets would be a good it yeah your tweets would be a good touring test for this for super touring test for this for super touring test for this for super intelligence anyway you tweeted that intelligence anyway you tweeted that intelligence anyway you tweeted that things only look things only look things only look emergent because we can't see time mhm emergent because we can't see time mhm emergent because we can't see time mhm so if we could see time what would the so if we could see time what would the so if we could see time what would the world look like you're saying you'll be world look like you're saying you'll be world look like you're saying you'll be able to see everything that an object

able to see everything that an object able to see everything that an object has been every step of the way that led has been every step of the way that led has been every step of the way that led to this current to this current to this current moment and all the interactions that moment and all the interactions that moment and all the interactions that required to make that Evolution happen required to make that Evolution happen required to make that Evolution happen so you would see this gigantic Tale the so you would see this gigantic Tale the so you would see this gigantic Tale the universe is far larger in time than it universe is far larger in time than it universe is far larger in time than it is in space yeah and this planet is one is in space yeah and this planet is one is in space yeah and this planet is one of the biggest things in the universe of the biggest things in the universe of the biggest things in the universe also the more complexity the also the more complexity the also the more complexity the bigger yeah Tech technosphere I think bigger yeah Tech technosphere I think bigger yeah Tech technosphere I think the the modern technosphere is the the the modern technosphere is the the the modern technosphere is the largest object in time in the universe largest object in time in the universe largest object in time in the universe that we know about and when you say that we know about and when you say that we know about and when you say technosphere what do you mean I mean uh technosphere what do you mean I mean uh technosphere what do you mean I mean uh the global integration of life and the global integration of life and the global integration of life and Technology on this planet so all the Technology on this planet so all the Technology on this planet so all the things all the technological things we things all the technological things we things all the technological things we created but I don't think of them as created but I don't think of them as created but I don't think of them as separate they're like very integrated separate they're like very integrated separate they're like very integrated with the structure that generated them with the structure that generated them with the structure that generated them so you can almost imagine it like time so you can almost imagine it like time so you can almost imagine it like time is constantly bifurcating and it's is constantly bifurcating and it's is constantly bifurcating and it's generating new structures and these new generating new structures and these new generating new structures and these new structures are um you know locally structures are um you know locally structures are um you know locally constructing the future and so things constructing the future and so things constructing the future and so things like you and I are very close together like you and I are very close together like you and I are very close together in time because we didn't diverge like in time because we didn't diverge like in time because we didn't diverge like very early in the history of universe very early in the history of universe very early in the history of universe it's very recent um and I think this is it's very recent um and I think this is it's very recent um and I think this is one of the reasons that we can one of the reasons that we can one of the reasons that we can understand each other so well and we can understand each other so well and we can understand each other so well and we can communicate effectively um and I might communicate effectively um and I might communicate effectively um and I might have some sense of what it feels like to have some sense of what it feels like to have some sense of what it feels like to be you but you know other organisms um be you but you know other organisms um be you but you know other organisms um bifurcated from us in time earlier this bifurcated from us in time earlier this bifurcated from us in time earlier this is just the concept of philogyny right

is just the concept of philogyny right is just the concept of philogyny right um but if you take that deeper and you um but if you take that deeper and you um but if you take that deeper and you really think about that as the structure really think about that as the structure really think about that as the structure of the physics that generates life um of the physics that generates life um of the physics that generates life um and you take that very seriously all of and you take that very seriously all of and you take that very seriously all of that causation is is still bundled up in that causation is is still bundled up in that causation is is still bundled up in the objects we observe today and so um the objects we observe today and so um the objects we observe today and so um so you and I are are close in this so you and I are are close in this so you and I are are close in this temporal structure but we're also um temporal structure but we're also um temporal structure but we're also um we're so close because we're really big we're so close because we're really big we're so close because we're really big and we only are very different in sort and we only are very different in sort and we only are very different in sort of like the most recent moments in the of like the most recent moments in the of like the most recent moments in the time that's like Ed in time that's like Ed in time that's like Ed in us uh it's hard to use words to us uh it's hard to use words to us uh it's hard to use words to visualize what's in visualize what's in visualize what's in Minds I have such a hard time with this Minds I have such a hard time with this Minds I have such a hard time with this sometimes I'm like I like I actually I sometimes I'm like I like I actually I sometimes I'm like I like I actually I was thinking on the way over here I was was thinking on the way over here I was was thinking on the way over here I was like I like you know you have pictures like I like you know you have pictures like I like you know you have pictures in your brain and then they're hard to in your brain and then they're hard to in your brain and then they're hard to put into words but I realized I always put into words but I realized I always put into words but I realized I always say I have a visual but it's not say I have a visual but it's not say I have a visual but it's not actually I have a visual it's I have a actually I have a visual it's I have a actually I have a visual it's I have a feeling because oftentimes I cannot feeling because oftentimes I cannot feeling because oftentimes I cannot actually draw a picture in my mind for actually draw a picture in my mind for actually draw a picture in my mind for the things that I say but times they go the things that I say but times they go the things that I say but times they go through a picture before they get to through a picture before they get to through a picture before they get to words but I like experimenting with words but I like experimenting with words but I like experimenting with words because I think they help paint words because I think they help paint words because I think they help paint pictures yeah it's again some kind of pictures yeah it's again some kind of pictures yeah it's again some kind of compressed feeling that you can query to compressed feeling that you can query to compressed feeling that you can query to get a a sense of the bigger get a a sense of the bigger get a a sense of the bigger visualization that you have in mind it's visualization that you have in mind it's visualization that you have in mind it's just a really nice just a really nice just a really nice compression but I think the idea of this compression but I think the idea of this compression but I think the idea of this object that in it contains all the object that in it contains all the object that in it contains all the information about the history of an information about the history of an information about the history of an entity that you see now just trying to

entity that you see now just trying to entity that you see now just trying to visualize that is pretty cool yeah it's visualize that is pretty cool yeah it's visualize that is pretty cool yeah it's I mean obviously the Mind breaks I mean obviously the Mind breaks I mean obviously the Mind breaks down quickly as you step seconds and down quickly as you step seconds and down quickly as you step seconds and minutes back in time but for minutes back in time but for minutes back in time but for sure I guess it's just a sure I guess it's just a sure I guess it's just a gigantic object yeah supposed to be gigantic object yeah supposed to be gigantic object yeah supposed to be thinking about yeah I think so and I thinking about yeah I think so and I thinking about yeah I think so and I think this is one of the reasons that we think this is one of the reasons that we think this is one of the reasons that we have such an ability to abstract um as have such an ability to abstract um as have such an ability to abstract um as humans because we are so gigantic that humans because we are so gigantic that humans because we are so gigantic that like the space that we can go back into like the space that we can go back into like the space that we can go back into is really large so like the more is really large so like the more is really large so like the more abstract you're going like the you're abstract you're going like the you're abstract you're going like the you're going in that space But in that sense going in that space But in that sense going in that space But in that sense aren't we fundamentally all connected aren't we fundamentally all connected aren't we fundamentally all connected yes and this is why the the definition yes and this is why the the definition yes and this is why the the definition of Life cannot be the individual it has of Life cannot be the individual it has of Life cannot be the individual it has to be these lineages because they're all to be these lineages because they're all to be these lineages because they're all connected they're interwoven and they're connected they're interwoven and they're connected they're interwoven and they're exchanging Parts all the time yeah so exchanging Parts all the time yeah so exchanging Parts all the time yeah so maybe there's certain aspects of those maybe there's certain aspects of those maybe there's certain aspects of those lineages that can be lifelike they can lineages that can be lifelike they can lineages that can be lifelike they can be characteristics that can be measured be characteristics that can be measured be characteristics that can be measured like with the sun theory that have more like with the sun theory that have more like with the sun theory that have more or less life but they're all just or less life but they're all just or less life but they're all just fingertips of fingertips of fingertips of a of a much bigger object yeah I think a of a much bigger object yeah I think a of a much bigger object yeah I think is very high dimensional and in fact I is very high dimensional and in fact I is very high dimensional and in fact I think you can be alive in some think you can be alive in some think you can be alive in some dimensions and and not in others like if dimensions and and not in others like if dimensions and and not in others like if you could if you could project all the you could if you could project all the you could if you could project all the causation that's in you in some in some causation that's in you in some in some causation that's in you in some in some features of you you know very little features of you you know very little features of you you know very little causation is required and like very causation is required and like very causation is required and like very little history and in some features a little history and in some features a little history and in some features a lot is so it's quite difficult to take lot is so it's quite difficult to take lot is so it's quite difficult to take this really this really this really high-dimensional uh very deep structure high-dimensional uh very deep structure high-dimensional uh very deep structure and project it into things that we and project it into things that we and project it into things that we really can understand and say like this

really can understand and say like this really can understand and say like this is the one thing um that we're seeing is the one thing um that we're seeing is the one thing um that we're seeing because it's not one thing it's funny because it's not one thing it's funny because it's not one thing it's funny we're talking about this now and I'm we're talking about this now and I'm we're talking about this now and I'm slowly starting to realize one of the slowly starting to realize one of the slowly starting to realize one of the things I saw when I took things I saw when I took things I saw when I took iwasa afterwards actually so the actual iwasa afterwards actually so the actual iwasa afterwards actually so the actual ceremony is 4 five hours but afterwards ceremony is 4 five hours but afterwards ceremony is 4 five hours but afterwards you're still riding whatever the thing you're still riding whatever the thing you're still riding whatever the thing that you're riding and I got a chance to that you're riding and I got a chance to that you're riding and I got a chance to um afterwards hang out with some friends um afterwards hang out with some friends um afterwards hang out with some friends and just shoot the shit in the you know and just shoot the shit in the you know and just shoot the shit in the you know in the forest in the forest in the forest and I get to see their and I get to see their and I get to see their faces and what was happening with their faces and what was happening with their faces and what was happening with their faces and their hair is I would get this faces and their hair is I would get this faces and their hair is I would get this interesting effect first of all interesting effect first of all interesting effect first of all everything was beautiful and and I just everything was beautiful and and I just everything was beautiful and and I just had so much love for everybody had so much love for everybody had so much love for everybody but I could see their past selves like but I could see their past selves like but I could see their past selves like behind them it was this effect where um behind them it was this effect where um behind them it was this effect where um I guess it's a blurring effect of where I guess it's a blurring effect of where I guess it's a blurring effect of where like if I move like this the faces that like if I move like this the faces that like if I move like this the faces that were just there are still there and it were just there are still there and it were just there are still there and it would just float like this these uh would just float like this these uh would just float like this these uh behind them which will create this behind them which will create this behind them which will create this incredible effect but it's also another incredible effect but it's also another incredible effect but it's also another way to think about that is I'm way to think about that is I'm way to think about that is I'm visualizing a little bit of that object visualizing a little bit of that object visualizing a little bit of that object of the thing they wore just a few of the thing they wore just a few of the thing they wore just a few seconds ago it's a cool little effect seconds ago it's a cool little effect seconds ago it's a cool little effect very cool and now it's like uh giving it very cool and now it's like uh giving it very cool and now it's like uh giving it a bit more profundity to to the effect a bit more profundity to to the effect a bit more profundity to to the effect that was just beautiful aesthetically that was just beautiful aesthetically that was just beautiful aesthetically but it's but it's but it's also beautiful from from a physics

also beautiful from from a physics also beautiful from from a physics perspective because that is a past self perspective because that is a past self perspective because that is a past self I get a little Glimpse at the past self I get a little Glimpse at the past self I get a little Glimpse at the past self that they they were but then you take that they they were but then you take that they they were but then you take that to its natural conclusion not just that to its natural conclusion not just that to its natural conclusion not just a few seconds ago but just to the a few seconds ago but just to the a few seconds ago but just to the beginning of the universe and you can beginning of the universe and you can beginning of the universe and you can probably years get down that lineage probably years get down that lineage probably years get down that lineage it's crazy that there's billions of it's crazy that there's billions of it's crazy that there's billions of years inside all of us all of us yeah years inside all of us all of us yeah years inside all of us all of us yeah and then we connect obviously not too uh and then we connect obviously not too uh and then we connect obviously not too uh not too long ago yeah uh you you not too long ago yeah uh you you not too long ago yeah uh you you mentioned the technosphere and you also mentioned the technosphere and you also mentioned the technosphere and you also wrote that the most alive thing on this wrote that the most alive thing on this wrote that the most alive thing on this planet is our technosphere yeah why is planet is our technosphere yeah why is planet is our technosphere yeah why is the technology we create a kind of life the technology we create a kind of life the technology we create a kind of life form why do you why are you seeing it as form why do you why are you seeing it as form why do you why are you seeing it as life because it's creative but with us life because it's creative but with us life because it's creative but with us obviously like not independently of us obviously like not independently of us obviously like not independently of us and also because of this sort of lineage and also because of this sort of lineage and also because of this sort of lineage view of life and I I think about life view of life and I I think about life view of life and I I think about life often as a planetary scale phenomena often as a planetary scale phenomena often as a planetary scale phenomena because that's sort of the natural because that's sort of the natural because that's sort of the natural boundary for all of this causation boundary for all of this causation boundary for all of this causation that's bundled in every object in our that's bundled in every object in our that's bundled in every object in our biosphere biosphere biosphere and so for me it's just sort of the and so for me it's just sort of the and so for me it's just sort of the current boundary of how far life on our current boundary of how far life on our current boundary of how far life on our planet has pushed into the things that planet has pushed into the things that planet has pushed into the things that our universe can our universe can our universe can generate and so it's the furthest thing generate and so it's the furthest thing generate and so it's the furthest thing it's the biggest thing um and I think a it's the biggest thing um and I think a it's the biggest thing um and I think a lot about the nature of Life across lot about the nature of Life across lot about the nature of Life across different scales and so uh you know we different scales and so uh you know we different scales and so uh you know we have cells inside of us that are alive have cells inside of us that are alive have cells inside of us that are alive and we feel like we're alive but we and we feel like we're alive but we and we feel like we're alive but we don't often think about the societies don't often think about the societies don't often think about the societies that we're embedded in that we're embedded in that we're embedded in as alive or a global scale organization

as alive or a global scale organization as alive or a global scale organization of us and our technology on the planet of us and our technology on the planet of us and our technology on the planet as alive um but I think if you have this as alive um but I think if you have this as alive um but I think if you have this uh deeper view into the nature of Life uh deeper view into the nature of Life uh deeper view into the nature of Life uh which I think is necessary also to uh which I think is necessary also to uh which I think is necessary also to solve the original life then you have to solve the original life then you have to solve the original life then you have to include those things all of them you include those things all of them you include those things all of them you have to simultaneously think about life have to simultaneously think about life have to simultaneously think about life at every single scale the planetary and at every single scale the planetary and at every single scale the planetary and the bacteria level yeah this is the hard the bacteria level yeah this is the hard the bacteria level yeah this is the hard thing about solving the problem of life thing about solving the problem of life thing about solving the problem of life I think is how many things you have to I think is how many things you have to I think is how many things you have to integrate into building a sort of a a a integrate into building a sort of a a a integrate into building a sort of a a a unified picture of this thing that we unified picture of this thing that we unified picture of this thing that we want to call life and and a lot of our want to call life and and a lot of our want to call life and and a lot of our theories of physics are built on um theories of physics are built on um theories of physics are built on um building deep regularities that explain building deep regularities that explain building deep regularities that explain a really broad class of phenomena and I a really broad class of phenomena and I a really broad class of phenomena and I think we haven't really traditionally think we haven't really traditionally think we haven't really traditionally thought about life that way uh but I thought about life that way uh but I thought about life that way uh but I think to get it at some of these hardest think to get it at some of these hardest think to get it at some of these hardest questions like looking for life on other questions like looking for life on other questions like looking for life on other planets or the original life you really planets or the original life you really planets or the original life you really have to think about it that way and so have to think about it that way and so have to think about it that way and so most most of like my professional work most most of like my professional work most most of like my professional work is just trying to understand like every is just trying to understand like every is just trying to understand like every single thing on this planet that might single thing on this planet that might single thing on this planet that might be an example of life which is pretty be an example of life which is pretty be an example of life which is pretty much everything and then trying to much everything and then trying to much everything and then trying to figure out like what's the deeper figure out like what's the deeper figure out like what's the deeper structure underlying that yeah shinger structure underlying that yeah shinger structure underlying that yeah shinger wrote that living matter while not wrote that living matter while not wrote that living matter while not alluding the laws of physics as alluding the laws of physics as alluding the laws of physics as established up to date is likely to established up to date is likely to established up to date is likely to involve other laws of physics hether to involve other laws of physics hether to involve other laws of physics hether to unknown so to him I love that quote unknown so to him I love that quote unknown so to him I love that quote there was a there was a there was a that at the bottom of this are new laws that at the bottom of this are new laws that at the bottom of this are new laws of physics that could explain this thing

of physics that could explain this thing of physics that could explain this thing that we call Life yeah short really that we call Life yeah short really that we call Life yeah short really tried to do what physicists try to do uh tried to do what physicists try to do uh tried to do what physicists try to do uh which is explain things um and he his which is explain things um and he his which is explain things um and he his attempt was to try to explain life in attempt was to try to explain life in attempt was to try to explain life in terms of non-equilibrium physics because terms of non-equilibrium physics because terms of non-equilibrium physics because he thought that was the best description he thought that was the best description he thought that was the best description that we could generate at the time and that we could generate at the time and that we could generate at the time and so he did come up with something really so he did come up with something really so he did come up with something really ightful which was to predict the ightful which was to predict the ightful which was to predict the structure of DNA as an AP periodic structure of DNA as an AP periodic structure of DNA as an AP periodic Crystal um and that was for a very Crystal um and that was for a very Crystal um and that was for a very precise Reas reason that you know that precise Reas reason that you know that precise Reas reason that you know that was the only kind of physical structure was the only kind of physical structure was the only kind of physical structure that could encode enough information to that could encode enough information to that could encode enough information to actually specify a cell we knew some actually specify a cell we knew some actually specify a cell we knew some things about genes but not about DNA and things about genes but not about DNA and things about genes but not about DNA and its actual structure when he proposed its actual structure when he proposed its actual structure when he proposed that but in the book he tried to explain that but in the book he tried to explain that but in the book he tried to explain life is kind of going against entropy life is kind of going against entropy life is kind of going against entropy and so some people have talked about it and so some people have talked about it and so some people have talked about it as like Schrodinger's Paradox how can as like Schrodinger's Paradox how can as like Schrodinger's Paradox how can life persist when the second law of life persist when the second law of life persist when the second law of thermodynamic is there um but in open thermodynamic is there um but in open thermodynamic is there um but in open systems that's not so problematic and systems that's not so problematic and systems that's not so problematic and really the question is why can life really the question is why can life really the question is why can life generate so much order and we don't have generate so much order and we don't have generate so much order and we don't have a physics to describe that and it's a physics to describe that and it's a physics to describe that and it's interesting you know generations of interesting you know generations of interesting you know generations of physicists have thought about this physicists have thought about this physicists have thought about this problem oftentimes it's like when people problem oftentimes it's like when people problem oftentimes it's like when people are retiring they're like oh now I can are retiring they're like oh now I can are retiring they're like oh now I can work on life uh or they're like more work on life uh or they're like more work on life uh or they're like more senior in their career and they worked senior in their career and they worked senior in their career and they worked on other more traditional problems and on other more traditional problems and on other more traditional problems and there's still a lot of impetus um in the there's still a lot of impetus um in the there's still a lot of impetus um in the physics Community to think that n physics Community to think that n physics Community to think that n equilibrium physics will explain life equilibrium physics will explain life equilibrium physics will explain life but I I think that's not the right but I I think that's not the right but I I think that's not the right approach uh I don't think ultimately the

approach uh I don't think ultimately the approach uh I don't think ultimately the solution to what life is is there and I solution to what life is is there and I solution to what life is is there and I don't really think entropy has much to don't really think entropy has much to don't really think entropy has much to do with it unless it's entirely do with it unless it's entirely do with it unless it's entirely reformulated well because you have to reformulated well because you have to reformulated well because you have to explain how interesting order how explain how interesting order how explain how interesting order how complexity emerges from the soup yes complexity emerges from the soup yes complexity emerges from the soup yes from Randomness from Randomness physics from Randomness from Randomness physics from Randomness from Randomness physics currently can't do that no physics currently can't do that no physics currently can't do that no physics hardly even acknowledges that the hardly even acknowledges that the hardly even acknowledges that the universe is random at its base universe is random at its base universe is random at its base like to think we live in a deterministic like to think we live in a deterministic like to think we live in a deterministic universe and everything's deterministic universe and everything's deterministic universe and everything's deterministic but I think that's probably uh you know but I think that's probably uh you know but I think that's probably uh you know an artifact of the way that we've an artifact of the way that we've an artifact of the way that we've written down laws of physics since written down laws of physics since written down laws of physics since Newton invented modern physics uh in his Newton invented modern physics uh in his Newton invented modern physics uh in his conception of motion and gravity which conception of motion and gravity which conception of motion and gravity which you know he he formulated laws that had you know he he formulated laws that had you know he he formulated laws that had initial conditions and um fixed initial conditions and um fixed initial conditions and um fixed dynamical laws and that's been sort of dynamical laws and that's been sort of dynamical laws and that's been sort of become the standard Canon of how people become the standard Canon of how people become the standard Canon of how people think the universe works and how we need think the universe works and how we need think the universe works and how we need to describe any physical system is with to describe any physical system is with to describe any physical system is with an initial condition and a law of motion an initial condition and a law of motion an initial condition and a law of motion and I think that's not actually the way and I think that's not actually the way and I think that's not actually the way the universe really works I think it's a the universe really works I think it's a the universe really works I think it's a good approximation for the kind of good approximation for the kind of good approximation for the kind of systems that physicists have studied so systems that physicists have studied so systems that physicists have studied so far and I think it will radically fail far and I think it will radically fail far and I think it will radically fail um in the long term at describing um in the long term at describing um in the long term at describing reality at its more basal levels not I'm reality at its more basal levels not I'm reality at its more basal levels not I'm not saying there's a base I don't think not saying there's a base I don't think not saying there's a base I don't think that reality has a ground and I don't that reality has a ground and I don't that reality has a ground and I don't think there's a theory of everything but think there's a theory of everything but think there's a theory of everything but I think there are better theories and I I think there are better theories and I I think there are better theories and I think there are more explanatory think there are more explanatory think there are more explanatory theories and I think we can get to theories and I think we can get to theories and I think we can get to Something that explains much more than Something that explains much more than Something that explains much more than the current laws of physics do when you the current laws of physics do when you the current laws of physics do when you say Theory of Everything you mean like

say Theory of Everything you mean like say Theory of Everything you mean like everything everything yeah yeah you know everything everything yeah yeah you know everything everything yeah yeah you know like in in physics right now it's really like in in physics right now it's really like in in physics right now it's really popular to talk about theories of popular to talk about theories of popular to talk about theories of everything so string theory is supposed everything so string theory is supposed everything so string theory is supposed to be a theory of everything because it to be a theory of everything because it to be a theory of everything because it unifies quantum mechanics and gravity um unifies quantum mechanics and gravity um unifies quantum mechanics and gravity um and you know people have their different and you know people have their different and you know people have their different pet theories of everything and and the pet theories of everything and and the pet theories of everything and and the challenge with a theory of everything I challenge with a theory of everything I challenge with a theory of everything I really love this qu quote from David really love this qu quote from David really love this qu quote from David crack hour which is a Theory of crack hour which is a Theory of crack hour which is a Theory of Everything is a theory of everything Everything is a theory of everything Everything is a theory of everything except those things that theorize oh you except those things that theorize oh you except those things that theorize oh you meaning removing the Observer from the meaning removing the Observer from the meaning removing the Observer from the thing yeah but it's also it's also weird thing yeah but it's also it's also weird thing yeah but it's also it's also weird because if a theory of everything because if a theory of everything because if a theory of everything explained everything it should also explained everything it should also explained everything it should also explain the theory so the theory has to explain the theory so the theory has to explain the theory so the theory has to be recursive and none of our theories of be recursive and none of our theories of be recursive and none of our theories of physics are recursive so it's just a physics are recursive so it's just a physics are recursive so it's just a it's a it's a weird concept yeah but it's a it's a weird concept yeah but it's a it's a weird concept yeah but it's very difficult to integrate The it's very difficult to integrate The it's very difficult to integrate The Observer into a theory I don't think so Observer into a theory I don't think so Observer into a theory I don't think so I think you can build a theory I think you can build a theory I think you can build a theory acknowledging that you're an observer acknowledging that you're an observer acknowledging that you're an observer inside the universe but doesn't it inside the universe but doesn't it inside the universe but doesn't it become recursive in that way and that's become recursive in that way and that's become recursive in that way and that's you're saying it's possible to make a you're saying it's possible to make a you're saying it's possible to make a Theory that's okay with that I think so Theory that's okay with that I think so Theory that's okay with that I think so I mean I don't think there's always I mean I don't think there's always I mean I don't think there's always going to be um the Paradox of another going to be um the Paradox of another going to be um the Paradox of another meta level you could build on the The meta level you could build on the The meta level you could build on the The Meta level right so like if you assume Meta level right so like if you assume Meta level right so like if you assume this is your universe and you're the this is your universe and you're the this is your universe and you're the Observer outside of it you have some Observer outside of it you have some Observer outside of it you have some meta description of that universe but meta description of that universe but meta description of that universe but then you need a metad description of you then you need a metad description of you then you need a metad description of you describing that Universe right so uh you describing that Universe right so uh you describing that Universe right so uh you know this is one of the biggest know this is one of the biggest know this is one of the biggest challenges that we face um being challenges that we face um being challenges that we face um being observers inside our universe and also observers inside our universe and also observers inside our universe and also you know why the paradoxes and the you know why the paradoxes and the you know why the paradoxes and the foundations of mathematics and any place foundations of mathematics and any place foundations of mathematics and any place that we try to have observers in the that we try to have observers in the that we try to have observers in the system or a system describing itself uh system or a system describing itself uh system or a system describing itself uh show up um but I think it is possible to

show up um but I think it is possible to show up um but I think it is possible to build a physics that builds in those build a physics that builds in those build a physics that builds in those things intrinsically without having them things intrinsically without having them things intrinsically without having them be paradoxical or have holes in the be paradoxical or have holes in the be paradoxical or have holes in the descriptions um and so one one place I descriptions um and so one one place I descriptions um and so one one place I think about this quite a lot which I think about this quite a lot which I think about this quite a lot which I think can give you sort of a more think can give you sort of a more think can give you sort of a more concrete example is is the nature of concrete example is is the nature of concrete example is is the nature of like what we call like what we call like what we call fundamental so uh we typically Define fundamental so uh we typically Define fundamental so uh we typically Define fundamental right now in terms of the fundamental right now in terms of the fundamental right now in terms of the smallest indivisible units of matter so smallest indivisible units of matter so smallest indivisible units of matter so again you have to have a definition of again you have to have a definition of again you have to have a definition of what you think material is and matter is what you think material is and matter is what you think material is and matter is but right now that you know what's but right now that you know what's but right now that you know what's fundamental are Elementary particles um fundamental are Elementary particles um fundamental are Elementary particles um and we think they're fundamental because and we think they're fundamental because and we think they're fundamental because we can't break them apart further and we can't break them apart further and we can't break them apart further and obviously we have theories like string obviously we have theories like string obviously we have theories like string theory that if they're right would theory that if they're right would theory that if they're right would replace the current description of replace the current description of replace the current description of what's the most fundamental thing in our what's the most fundamental thing in our what's the most fundamental thing in our universe by replacing with something universe by replacing with something universe by replacing with something smaller um but we can't get to those smaller um but we can't get to those smaller um but we can't get to those theories because we're technologically theories because we're technologically theories because we're technologically Limited Limited Limited and so if you if you look at this from a and so if you if you look at this from a and so if you if you look at this from a historical perspective and you think historical perspective and you think historical perspective and you think about explanations about explanations about explanations changing as physical systems like us changing as physical systems like us changing as physical systems like us learn more about the reality in which learn more about the reality in which learn more about the reality in which they live we once considered Adams to be they live we once considered Adams to be they live we once considered Adams to be the most fundamental thing um and you the most fundamental thing um and you the most fundamental thing um and you know it literally comes from the word know it literally comes from the word know it literally comes from the word indivisible and then we realized Adams indivisible and then we realized Adams indivisible and then we realized Adams had substructure because we built better had substructure because we built better had substructure because we built better technology which allowed us to quote technology which allowed us to quote technology which allowed us to quote unquote see the world better and resolve unquote see the world better and resolve unquote see the world better and resolve smaller features of it and then we built smaller features of it and then we built smaller features of it and then we built even better technology which allowed us even better technology which allowed us even better technology which allowed us to see even smaller structure and get to see even smaller structure and get to see even smaller structure and get down to the standard model particles and down to the standard model particles and down to the standard model particles and we think that there's might be structure

we think that there's might be structure we think that there's might be structure below that but we can't get there yet below that but we can't get there yet below that but we can't get there yet with our technology so what's with our technology so what's with our technology so what's fundamental the way we talk about it in fundamental the way we talk about it in fundamental the way we talk about it in um current physics is not actually um current physics is not actually um current physics is not actually fundamental it's the boundaries of what fundamental it's the boundaries of what fundamental it's the boundaries of what we can observe in our universe what we we can observe in our universe what we we can observe in our universe what we can see with our technology and so if can see with our technology and so if can see with our technology and so if you want to build a theory that's about you want to build a theory that's about you want to build a theory that's about us us us and and and about what what's inside the universe about what what's inside the universe about what what's inside the universe that we can observe not what's at the that we can observe not what's at the that we can observe not what's at the boundary of it um you need to talk about boundary of it um you need to talk about boundary of it um you need to talk about objects that are in the universe that objects that are in the universe that objects that are in the universe that you can actually break apart to smaller you can actually break apart to smaller you can actually break apart to smaller things so I think the things that are things so I think the things that are things so I think the things that are fundamental are actually the constructed fundamental are actually the constructed fundamental are actually the constructed objects they're the ones that really objects they're the ones that really objects they're the ones that really exist and you really understand their exist and you really understand their exist and you really understand their properties because you know how the properties because you know how the properties because you know how the universe constructed them because you universe constructed them because you universe constructed them because you can actually take them apart you can can actually take them apart you can can actually take them apart you can understand the intrinsic laws that built understand the intrinsic laws that built understand the intrinsic laws that built them but the things at the boundary are them but the things at the boundary are them but the things at the boundary are just at the boundary they're Evol in just at the boundary they're Evol in just at the boundary they're Evol in with us and we'll learn more about that with us and we'll learn more about that with us and we'll learn more about that structure as we go along but really if structure as we go along but really if structure as we go along but really if we want to talk about what's fundamental we want to talk about what's fundamental we want to talk about what's fundamental inside our universe we have to talk inside our universe we have to talk inside our universe we have to talk about all these things that are about all these things that are about all these things that are traditionally considered emergent but traditionally considered emergent but traditionally considered emergent but really just structures in time that have really just structures in time that have really just structures in time that have causal histories that constructed them causal histories that constructed them causal histories that constructed them and um you know are really actually what and um you know are really actually what and um you know are really actually what our universe is about so we should focus our universe is about so we should focus our universe is about so we should focus on the construction methodology as the on the construction methodology as the on the construction methodology as the fundamental thing do you think there's a fundamental thing do you think there's a fundamental thing do you think there's a bottom to the the smallest possible bottom to the the smallest possible bottom to the the smallest possible thing that makes something un I don't thing that makes something un I don't thing that makes something un I don't see one and it'll take way too long see one and it'll take way too long see one and it'll take way too long it'll take longer to find that than it it'll take longer to find that than it it'll take longer to find that than it will to understand the mechanism that will to understand the mechanism that will to understand the mechanism that created life I think so yeah I I think created life I think so yeah I I think created life I think so yeah I I think for me the frontier in modern physics

for me the frontier in modern physics for me the frontier in modern physics where the new physics lies is not in where the new physics lies is not in where the new physics lies is not in high energy particle physics it's not in high energy particle physics it's not in high energy particle physics it's not in quantum gravity it's not in any of these quantum gravity it's not in any of these quantum gravity it's not in any of these sort of traditionally sold this is going sort of traditionally sold this is going sort of traditionally sold this is going to be the newest deepest Insight we have to be the newest deepest Insight we have to be the newest deepest Insight we have into the nature reality it is going to into the nature reality it is going to into the nature reality it is going to be in studying the problems of life and be in studying the problems of life and be in studying the problems of life and intelligence and the things that are intelligence and the things that are intelligence and the things that are sort of sort of sort of also our current existential crisis as a also our current existential crisis as a also our current existential crisis as a civilization or a culture that's going civilization or a culture that's going civilization or a culture that's going through uh you know an existential through uh you know an existential through uh you know an existential trauma of inventing technologies that we trauma of inventing technologies that we trauma of inventing technologies that we don't understand right now the don't understand right now the don't understand right now the existential trauma and the terror we existential trauma and the terror we existential trauma and the terror we feel that that technology might somehow feel that that technology might somehow feel that that technology might somehow destroy us us meaning living intelligent destroy us us meaning living intelligent destroy us us meaning living intelligent living organisms yet we don't understand living organisms yet we don't understand living organisms yet we don't understand what that even means well humans have what that even means well humans have what that even means well humans have always been afraid of our Technologies always been afraid of our Technologies always been afraid of our Technologies though right so it's kind of a though right so it's kind of a though right so it's kind of a fascinating thing that every time we fascinating thing that every time we fascinating thing that every time we invent something we don't understand it invent something we don't understand it invent something we don't understand it takes us a little while to catch up with takes us a little while to catch up with takes us a little while to catch up with it I think also in part humans kind of it I think also in part humans kind of it I think also in part humans kind of love being afraid yeah we love being love being afraid yeah we love being love being afraid yeah we love being traumatized it's weird we want to learn traumatized it's weird we want to learn traumatized it's weird we want to learn more and then when we learn more it more and then when we learn more it more and then when we learn more it traumatizes traumatizes traumatizes us you know I never thought about it us you know I never thought about it us you know I never thought about it this before but I think this one of the this before but I think this one of the this before but I think this one of the reasons I love what I do is because it reasons I love what I do is because it reasons I love what I do is because it traumatizes me all the time that sounds traumatizes me all the time that sounds traumatizes me all the time that sounds really bad but what I mean is like I really bad but what I mean is like I really bad but what I mean is like I love the shock of like realizing that love the shock of like realizing that love the shock of like realizing that like coming to understand something in a like coming to understand something in a like coming to understand something in a way that you never understood it before way that you never understood it before way that you never understood it before uh I think uh I think uh I think it seems to me when when I see a lot of it seems to me when when I see a lot of it seems to me when when I see a lot of the ways other people react to new ideas the ways other people react to new ideas the ways other people react to new ideas that they don't feel that way that they don't feel that way that they don't feel that way intrinsically but for me that's like intrinsically but for me that's like intrinsically but for me that's like that's why I do what I do I I love I that's why I do what I do I I love I that's why I do what I do I I love I love that feeling but you're also love that feeling but you're also love that feeling but you're also working on a topic where it's

working on a topic where it's working on a topic where it's fundamentally ego destroying CU you're fundamentally ego destroying CU you're fundamentally ego destroying CU you're talking about like life it's humbling to talking about like life it's humbling to talking about like life it's humbling to think that we're not the individual think that we're not the individual think that we're not the individual human is not special yeah and you're human is not special yeah and you're human is not special yeah and you're like very viscerally exploring that yeah like very viscerally exploring that yeah like very viscerally exploring that yeah I'm trying to embody that uh because you I'm trying to embody that uh because you I'm trying to embody that uh because you I think you have to live the physics to I think you have to live the physics to I think you have to live the physics to understand it but uh there's a great understand it but uh there's a great understand it but uh there's a great quote about Einstein I don't know if quote about Einstein I don't know if quote about Einstein I don't know if this is true or not that he once said this is true or not that he once said this is true or not that he once said that he could feel light beam in his that he could feel light beam in his that he could feel light beam in his belly uh and I belly uh and I belly uh and I think but I think like you got to think think but I think like you got to think think but I think like you got to think about it though right like you're if about it though right like you're if about it though right like you're if you're a really deep thinker and you're you're a really deep thinker and you're you're a really deep thinker and you're really thinking about reality that really thinking about reality that really thinking about reality that deeply and you are part of the reality deeply and you are part of the reality deeply and you are part of the reality that you're trying to describe like you that you're trying to describe like you that you're trying to describe like you feel it you really feel it that's what I feel it you really feel it that's what I feel it you really feel it that's what I was saying about you always is like was saying about you always is like was saying about you always is like walking along the cliff if you fall off walking along the cliff if you fall off walking along the cliff if you fall off you're falling into madness yes it's a you're falling into madness yes it's a you're falling into madness yes it's a constant constant descent in Madness the constant constant descent in Madness the constant constant descent in Madness the fascinating thing about physicists and fascinating thing about physicists and fascinating thing about physicists and Madness is that you don't know if you've Madness is that you don't know if you've Madness is that you don't know if you've uh fallen off the cliff yeah I know you uh fallen off the cliff yeah I know you uh fallen off the cliff yeah I know you don't know that's that's the cool thing don't know that's that's the cool thing don't know that's that's the cool thing about I rely on other people to tell me about I rely on other people to tell me about I rely on other people to tell me actually this is very funny cuz like I actually this is very funny cuz like I actually this is very funny cuz like I have these conversations with my have these conversations with my have these conversations with my students often like they're worried students often like they're worried students often like they're worried about going crazy and I have to about going crazy and I have to about going crazy and I have to like reassure them that like one of the like reassure them that like one of the like reassure them that like one of the reasons they'll stay sane is by trying reasons they'll stay sane is by trying reasons they'll stay sane is by trying to work on concrete problems to work on concrete problems to work on concrete problems going crazy or waking up I don't know going crazy or waking up I don't know going crazy or waking up I don't know which one which one it is yeah uh so which one which one it is yeah uh so which one which one it is yeah uh so what do you think is the origin of life what do you think is the origin of life what do you think is the origin of life on Earth and how can we talk about it in on Earth and how can we talk about it in on Earth and how can we talk about it in a productive way the origin of life is a productive way the origin of life is a productive way the origin of life is like this

like this like this boundary um that the Universe can only boundary um that the Universe can only boundary um that the Universe can only cross if a structure that emerges can cross if a structure that emerges can cross if a structure that emerges can reinforce its own existence which is reinforce its own existence which is reinforce its own existence which is self- reproduction autocatalysis things self- reproduction autocatalysis things self- reproduction autocatalysis things people traditionally talk about but it people traditionally talk about but it people traditionally talk about but it has to be able to maintain its own has to be able to maintain its own has to be able to maintain its own existence against this sort of existence against this sort of existence against this sort of Randomness that happens in chemistry and Randomness that happens in chemistry and Randomness that happens in chemistry and this Randomness that happens in the this Randomness that happens in the this Randomness that happens in the quantum world and like it's in some quantum world and like it's in some quantum world and like it's in some sense the emergence of like a sense the emergence of like a sense the emergence of like a deterministic structure that says you deterministic structure that says you deterministic structure that says you know I'm going to exist and I'm going to know I'm going to exist and I'm going to know I'm going to exist and I'm going to keep going um but uh you know pinning keep going um but uh you know pinning keep going um but uh you know pinning that down is really hard we have ways of that down is really hard we have ways of that down is really hard we have ways of thinking about it in assembly theory thinking about it in assembly theory thinking about it in assembly theory that I think are pretty rigorous and one that I think are pretty rigorous and one that I think are pretty rigorous and one of the things I'm really excited about of the things I'm really excited about of the things I'm really excited about is trying to actually quantify uh in an is trying to actually quantify uh in an is trying to actually quantify uh in an assembly theoretic way when the original assembly theoretic way when the original assembly theoretic way when the original life happens but the basic process I life happens but the basic process I life happens but the basic process I have in mind is like a system that has have in mind is like a system that has have in mind is like a system that has no causal contingency no constraints of no causal contingency no constraints of no causal contingency no constraints of objects basically constraining the objects basically constraining the objects basically constraining the existence of other objects or forming or existence of other objects or forming or existence of other objects or forming or are allowing the existence of other are allowing the existence of other are allowing the existence of other objects um and so that sounds very objects um and so that sounds very objects um and so that sounds very abstract but like you can just think of abstract but like you can just think of abstract but like you can just think of like a chemical reaction can't happen if like a chemical reaction can't happen if like a chemical reaction can't happen if there's not a catalyst for example or a there's not a catalyst for example or a there's not a catalyst for example or a baby can't be born if there wasn't a baby can't be born if there wasn't a baby can't be born if there wasn't a parent um so there's a lot of causal parent um so there's a lot of causal parent um so there's a lot of causal contingency that's necessary for certain contingency that's necessary for certain contingency that's necessary for certain things to happen so um you think about things to happen so um you think about things to happen so um you think about this sort of unconstrained random system this sort of unconstrained random system this sort of unconstrained random system there's nothing that reinforces the there's nothing that reinforces the there's nothing that reinforces the existence of other things so so the sort existence of other things so so the sort existence of other things so so the sort of resources just get washed out in all of resources just get washed out in all of resources just get washed out in all of these different structures and none

of these different structures and none of these different structures and none of them exist again um or they just you of them exist again um or they just you of them exist again um or they just you know they're they're not very know they're they're not very know they're they're not very complicated if they're in high abundance complicated if they're in high abundance complicated if they're in high abundance and some random events allow some things and some random events allow some things and some random events allow some things to start to start to start reinforcing the existence of a small reinforcing the existence of a small reinforcing the existence of a small subset of objects and if they can do subset of objects and if they can do subset of objects and if they can do that um you know like just molecules that um you know like just molecules that um you know like just molecules basically recognizing each other and basically recognizing each other and basically recognizing each other and being able to catalyze certain being able to catalyze certain being able to catalyze certain reactions uh there's this kind of uh reactions uh there's this kind of uh reactions uh there's this kind of uh transition point that happens transition point that happens transition point that happens where unless you get a self reinforcing where unless you get a self reinforcing where unless you get a self reinforcing structure something that can maintain structure something that can maintain structure something that can maintain its own existence it actually can't its own existence it actually can't its own existence it actually can't cross this boundary to make any objects cross this boundary to make any objects cross this boundary to make any objects in high abundance without having this in high abundance without having this in high abundance without having this sort of past history that it's carrying sort of past history that it's carrying sort of past history that it's carrying with us and maintaining the existence of with us and maintaining the existence of with us and maintaining the existence of that past history and that boundary that past history and that boundary that past history and that boundary point where objects can't exist unless point where objects can't exist unless point where objects can't exist unless they have this selection and history in they have this selection and history in they have this selection and history in them is what we call the original life them is what we call the original life them is what we call the original life and pretty much everything beyond that and pretty much everything beyond that and pretty much everything beyond that boundary um is holding on for dear life boundary um is holding on for dear life boundary um is holding on for dear life to all of the causation and causal to all of the causation and causal to all of the causation and causal structure that's basically put it there structure that's basically put it there structure that's basically put it there um and it's carving its way through this um and it's carving its way through this um and it's carving its way through this possibility space um into generating possibility space um into generating possibility space um into generating more and more structure and that's when more and more structure and that's when more and more structure and that's when you get the open-ended Cascade of you get the open-ended Cascade of you get the open-ended Cascade of evolution but that boundary point is evolution but that boundary point is evolution but that boundary point is really hard to cross and then what really hard to cross and then what really hard to cross and then what happens when you cross that boundary happens when you cross that boundary happens when you cross that boundary point and the way objects come into point and the way objects come into point and the way objects come into existence is also like really existence is also like really existence is also like really fascinating Dynamics because you know fascinating Dynamics because you know fascinating Dynamics because you know like as Things become more complex the like as Things become more complex the like as Things become more complex the assembly index increases I can explain assembly index increases I can explain assembly index increases I can explain all these things sorry you can tell me all these things sorry you can tell me all these things sorry you can tell me what you want to explain uh me to

what you want to explain uh me to what you want to explain uh me to explain or what people want will want to explain or what people want will want to explain or what people want will want to hear um this uh sorry I have like a very hear um this uh sorry I have like a very hear um this uh sorry I have like a very Vivid visual in my brain and it's really Vivid visual in my brain and it's really Vivid visual in my brain and it's really hard to articulate it got to convert it hard to articulate it got to convert it hard to articulate it got to convert it to language I know to language I know to language I know so hard it's not it's like it's going so hard it's not it's like it's going so hard it's not it's like it's going from like a feeling to a visual to from like a feeling to a visual to from like a feeling to a visual to language is so stifling sometimes I have language is so stifling sometimes I have language is so stifling sometimes I have to convert it yeah from language to to a to convert it yeah from language to to a to convert it yeah from language to to a visual to a feeling yeah I think it's visual to a feeling yeah I think it's visual to a feeling yeah I think it's working I hope so I really like the working I hope so I really like the working I hope so I really like the self-reinforcing objects I self-reinforcing objects I self-reinforcing objects I mean just so I understand one way to mean just so I understand one way to mean just so I understand one way to create a lot of the same kind of object create a lot of the same kind of object create a lot of the same kind of object is make them self is make them self is make them self reinforcing yes so self- reproduction reinforcing yes so self- reproduction reinforcing yes so self- reproduction has its property right like if a system has its property right like if a system has its property right like if a system can make itself then it can it can can make itself then it can it can can make itself then it can it can persist in time right cuz all objects persist in time right cuz all objects persist in time right cuz all objects Decay they all have a finite lifetime so Decay they all have a finite lifetime so Decay they all have a finite lifetime so if you're able to make a copy of if you're able to make a copy of if you're able to make a copy of yourself before you die before the yourself before you die before the yourself before you die before the second law eats you or whatever people second law eats you or whatever people second law eats you or whatever people think happens um then that structure can think happens um then that structure can think happens um then that structure can persist in time so that's a way to sort persist in time so that's a way to sort persist in time so that's a way to sort of emerge out of a random soup out of of emerge out of a random soup out of of emerge out of a random soup out of randomness of soup right but things that randomness of soup right but things that randomness of soup right but things that can copy themselves are very rare yeah can copy themselves are very rare yeah can copy themselves are very rare yeah um and so what ends up happening is that um and so what ends up happening is that um and so what ends up happening is that you get structures that enable the you get structures that enable the you get structures that enable the existence of other things and then existence of other things and then existence of other things and then somehow only for some sets of objects somehow only for some sets of objects somehow only for some sets of objects you get closed structures that are you get closed structures that are you get closed structures that are self-reinforcing and allow that entire

self-reinforcing and allow that entire self-reinforcing and allow that entire structure to persist right so the one structure to persist right so the one structure to persist right so the one object a reinforces the existence of object a reinforces the existence of object a reinforces the existence of object B but you know object a can die object B but you know object a can die object B but you know object a can die yeah so you have to like close that Loop yeah so you have to like close that Loop yeah so you have to like close that Loop right so this is the class all very right so this is the class all very right so this is the class all very unlikely statistically but you know unlikely statistically but you know unlikely statistically but you know that's sufficiently um it's so you're that's sufficiently um it's so you're that's sufficiently um it's so you're saying there's a chance there is a saying there's a chance there is a saying there's a chance there is a probability and then but once you solve probability and then but once you solve probability and then but once you solve that once you close the loop you can that once you close the loop you can that once you close the loop you can create a lot of those objects and that's create a lot of those objects and that's create a lot of those objects and that's what we're trying to figure out is what what we're trying to figure out is what what we're trying to figure out is what are the causal constraints that close are the causal constraints that close are the causal constraints that close the loop so there is this idea that's the loop so there is this idea that's the loop so there is this idea that's been in the literature for a really long been in the literature for a really long been in the literature for a really long time that was originally proposed by time that was originally proposed by time that was originally proposed by Stuart Kaufman as really critical to the Stuart Kaufman as really critical to the Stuart Kaufman as really critical to the origin life called autoc cic set so origin life called autoc cic set so origin life called autoc cic set so autoc set is exactly this property we autoc set is exactly this property we autoc set is exactly this property we have a makes b b makes c c makes a and have a makes b b makes c c makes a and have a makes b b makes c c makes a and you get a closed system but the problem you get a closed system but the problem you get a closed system but the problem with the theory of autoc cataly sets is with the theory of autoc cataly sets is with the theory of autoc cataly sets is incredibly brittle as a theory and it incredibly brittle as a theory and it incredibly brittle as a theory and it requires a lot of ad hoc assumptions requires a lot of ad hoc assumptions requires a lot of ad hoc assumptions like you have to assume function you like you have to assume function you like you have to assume function you have to say this thing makes B it's not have to say this thing makes B it's not have to say this thing makes B it's not an emergent property the association an emergent property the association an emergent property the association between a and b and so the way I think between a and b and so the way I think between a and b and so the way I think about it is much more General if you about it is much more General if you about it is much more General if you think think think about um these histories that make about um these histories that make about um these histories that make objects it's it's kind of like the objects it's it's kind of like the objects it's it's kind of like the structure of the histories structure of the histories structure of the histories becomes um collapses in such a way that becomes um collapses in such a way that becomes um collapses in such a way that these things are all in the same sort of these things are all in the same sort of these things are all in the same sort of causal structure and that causal causal structure and that causal causal structure and that causal structure actually Loops back on itself structure actually Loops back on itself structure actually Loops back on itself to be able to generate some of the to be able to generate some of the to be able to generate some of the things that make the higher level things that make the higher level things that make the higher level structures Lee has a beautiful example structures Lee has a beautiful example structures Lee has a beautiful example of this actually in malinam it's like

of this actually in malinam it's like of this actually in malinam it's like the first the first the first nonorganic autocatalytic set it's a nonorganic autocatalytic set it's a nonorganic autocatalytic set it's a self-reproducing malum ring uh but it's self-reproducing malum ring uh but it's self-reproducing malum ring uh but it's like like ium and and basically like if like like ium and and basically like if like like ium and and basically like if you look at the malum it makes a huge you look at the malum it makes a huge you look at the malum it makes a huge malum ring I don't remember exactly how malum ring I don't remember exactly how malum ring I don't remember exactly how big it is it might be like 150 malum big it is it might be like 150 malum big it is it might be like 150 malum atoms or something but if you think atoms or something but if you think atoms or something but if you think about the configuration space of that about the configuration space of that about the configuration space of that object you know it's exponentially large object you know it's exponentially large object you know it's exponentially large how many possible molecules so like why how many possible molecules so like why how many possible molecules so like why does the entire system collaps on just does the entire system collaps on just does the entire system collaps on just making that one structure if you start making that one structure if you start making that one structure if you start from like you know malum atoms that are from like you know malum atoms that are from like you know malum atoms that are maybe just like a couple of them stuck maybe just like a couple of them stuck maybe just like a couple of them stuck together and so what they see in this together and so what they see in this together and so what they see in this system is there's a few intermediate system is there's a few intermediate system is there's a few intermediate stages so there's like some random stages so there's like some random stages so there's like some random events where the chemistry comes events where the chemistry comes events where the chemistry comes together makes these structures and then together makes these structures and then together makes these structures and then once you get to this very large one it once you get to this very large one it once you get to this very large one it becomes a template for the smaller ones becomes a template for the smaller ones becomes a template for the smaller ones and then the whole system just and then the whole system just and then the whole system just reinforces its own production how did reinforces its own production how did reinforces its own production how did Lee find this malib denum close loop if I knew how Le's denum close loop if I knew how Le's brain work I think I would understand a brain work I think I would understand a brain work I think I would understand a more about the universe but I this is more about the universe but I this is more about the universe but I this is not an algorithmic Discovery it's a like not an algorithmic Discovery it's a like not an algorithmic Discovery it's a like no but um but you I think it goes to the no but um but you I think it goes to the no but um but you I think it goes to the deepest roots of like when he started deepest roots of like when he started deepest roots of like when he started thinking about origins of life so I like thinking about origins of life so I like thinking about origins of life so I like I I mean I don't know all his but like I I mean I don't know all his but like I I mean I don't know all his but like what he's told me is um he started out what he's told me is um he started out what he's told me is um he started out in in in crystallography um and you know there's crystallography um and you know there's crystallography um and you know there's some things that he would just you know some things that he would just you know some things that he would just you know like people would just take for granted like people would just take for granted like people would just take for granted about chemical structures um that he was about chemical structures um that he was about chemical structures um that he was like deeply perplexed about like just like deeply perplexed about like just like deeply perplexed about like just like why are these like really intricate like why are these like really intricate like why are these like really intricate really complex structures forming so really complex structures forming so really complex structures forming so easily under these conditions and he was

easily under these conditions and he was easily under these conditions and he was really interested in life um but he really interested in life um but he really interested in life um but he started in that field so he's just started in that field so he's just started in that field so he's just carried with him these sort of deep carried with him these sort of deep carried with him these sort of deep insights from these systems that seem insights from these systems that seem insights from these systems that seem like they're totally not alive and just like they're totally not alive and just like they're totally not alive and just like these metallic like these metallic like these metallic chemistries um into actually thinking chemistries um into actually thinking chemistries um into actually thinking about the Deep principles of life so I about the Deep principles of life so I about the Deep principles of life so I think he think he think he already uh he already knew a lot about already uh he already knew a lot about already uh he already knew a lot about that chemistry and he that chemistry and he that chemistry and he also um you know assembly Theory came also um you know assembly Theory came also um you know assembly Theory came from him thinking about how these from him thinking about how these from him thinking about how these systems work uh so he had some intuition systems work uh so he had some intuition systems work uh so he had some intuition about what was going on with this mum about what was going on with this mum about what was going on with this mum ring the malib might be able to be the ring the malib might be able to be the ring the malib might be able to be the thing that makes a ring they knew about thing that makes a ring they knew about thing that makes a ring they knew about them for a long time but they didn't them for a long time but they didn't them for a long time but they didn't know that the mechanism of why that know that the mechanism of why that know that the mechanism of why that particular structure form was autoc particular structure form was autoc particular structure form was autoc catalic feedback um and so that's what catalic feedback um and so that's what catalic feedback um and so that's what they they figured out in this this paper they they figured out in this this paper they they figured out in this this paper and I actually think that paper is and I actually think that paper is and I actually think that paper is revealing some of the mechanism of the revealing some of the mechanism of the revealing some of the mechanism of the origin life transition because really origin life transition because really origin life transition because really what you see like the origin of life is what you see like the origin of life is what you see like the origin of life is basically like you should have a comori basically like you should have a comori basically like you should have a comori explosion of the space of possible explosion of the space of possible explosion of the space of possible structures um that are too large to structures um that are too large to structures um that are too large to exhaust and yet you see it collapse on exhaust and yet you see it collapse on exhaust and yet you see it collapse on this you know really small space of this you know really small space of this you know really small space of possibilities that's mutually possibilities that's mutually possibilities that's mutually reinforcing itself to keep reinforcing itself to keep reinforcing itself to keep existing that is the origin of life existing that is the origin of life existing that is the origin of life there's some set of structures that there's some set of structures that there's some set of structures that result in this autoc catalytic feedback result in this autoc catalytic feedback result in this autoc catalytic feedback yeah and this what is it tiny tiny tiny yeah and this what is it tiny tiny tiny yeah and this what is it tiny tiny tiny tiny percent I think it's a small space tiny percent I think it's a small space tiny percent I think it's a small space but chemistry is very large so so like U

but chemistry is very large so so like U but chemistry is very large so so like U there might be a lot of them out there there might be a lot of them out there there might be a lot of them out there but we don't know and one of them is the but we don't know and one of them is the but we don't know and one of them is the thing that probably started life on thing that probably started life on thing that probably started life on Earth that's right or many many starts Earth that's right or many many starts Earth that's right or many many starts yes and it keeps starting maybe yeah I yes and it keeps starting maybe yeah I yes and it keeps starting maybe yeah I mean there's also all kinds of other mean there's also all kinds of other mean there's also all kinds of other weird properties that happen around this weird properties that happen around this weird properties that happen around this kind of um phase kind of um phase kind of um phase boundary um so this other project that I boundary um so this other project that I boundary um so this other project that I have in my lab is focused on the origin have in my lab is focused on the origin have in my lab is focused on the origin of of of chirality um which is uh you know chirality um which is uh you know chirality um which is uh you know thinking about so so chirality is this thinking about so so chirality is this thinking about so so chirality is this property of molecules that they can come property of molecules that they can come property of molecules that they can come in Mirror Image forms so like just like in Mirror Image forms so like just like in Mirror Image forms so like just like chyro literally means hand so your your chyro literally means hand so your your chyro literally means hand so your your left and right hand are what's called left and right hand are what's called left and right hand are what's called nons superimposable because if you try nons superimposable because if you try nons superimposable because if you try to lay one on the other you can't to lay one on the other you can't to lay one on the other you can't actually lay them directly on top of actually lay them directly on top of actually lay them directly on top of each other um and that's the property each other um and that's the property each other um and that's the property being a mirror image so there's a sort being a mirror image so there's a sort being a mirror image so there's a sort of perplexing property of the chemistry of perplexing property of the chemistry of perplexing property of the chemistry life that no one's been able to really life that no one's been able to really life that no one's been able to really adequately explain that all of the amino adequately explain that all of the amino adequately explain that all of the amino acids in proteins are left-handed and acids in proteins are left-handed and acids in proteins are left-handed and all of the uh bases in RNA and DNA are all of the uh bases in RNA and DNA are all of the uh bases in RNA and DNA are right-handed and yet the chemistry of right-handed and yet the chemistry of right-handed and yet the chemistry of these these building block units the these these building block units the these these building block units the amino acids and nuclear bases is the amino acids and nuclear bases is the amino acids and nuclear bases is the same for left and right-handed so you same for left and right-handed so you same for left and right-handed so you have to have like some kind of symmetry have to have like some kind of symmetry have to have like some kind of symmetry breaking where you go from these breaking where you go from these breaking where you go from these chemistries that seem entirely chemistries that seem entirely chemistries that seem entirely equivalent to only having uh one equivalent to only having uh one equivalent to only having uh one chemistry takeover as the dominant form chemistry takeover as the dominant form chemistry takeover as the dominant form and for a long time I had been really I and for a long time I had been really I and for a long time I had been really I actually did my PhD on the origin of actually did my PhD on the origin of actually did my PhD on the origin of chirality I was working on it as like a chirality I was working on it as like a chirality I was working on it as like a symmetry breaking problem in physics symmetry breaking problem in physics symmetry breaking problem in physics this is how I got started in the this is how I got started in the this is how I got started in the original life and then I left it for a original life and then I left it for a original life and then I left it for a long time because I thought it was like long time because I thought it was like long time because I thought it was like one of the most boring problems in the

one of the most boring problems in the one of the most boring problems in the original life but I've come back to it original life but I've come back to it original life but I've come back to it cuz I think there's something really cuz I think there's something really cuz I think there's something really deep going on here related to this like deep going on here related to this like deep going on here related to this like common torial explosion of the space of common torial explosion of the space of common torial explosion of the space of possibilities um but just to to to get possibilities um but just to to to get possibilities um but just to to to get to that point like this feature of this to that point like this feature of this to that point like this feature of this handedness has been the main focus but handedness has been the main focus but handedness has been the main focus but people take for granted um the existence people take for granted um the existence people take for granted um the existence of chyro molecules at all that this of chyro molecules at all that this of chyro molecules at all that this property of of having a handedness um property of of having a handedness um property of of having a handedness um and they just assume that you know like and they just assume that you know like and they just assume that you know like it's just a generic feature of chemistry it's just a generic feature of chemistry it's just a generic feature of chemistry but if you actually look at molecules if but if you actually look at molecules if but if you actually look at molecules if you look at chemical space which is like you look at chemical space which is like you look at chemical space which is like the space of all possible mole ules that the space of all possible mole ules that the space of all possible mole ules that people can generate and you look at people can generate and you look at people can generate and you look at small molecules things that have less small molecules things that have less small molecules things that have less than about 7 to 11 heavy atoms so things than about 7 to 11 heavy atoms so things than about 7 to 11 heavy atoms so things that are not hydrogen almost every that are not hydrogen almost every that are not hydrogen almost every single molecule in that space is a chyal single molecule in that space is a chyal single molecule in that space is a chyal like doesn't have a chyal center so it like doesn't have a chyal center so it like doesn't have a chyal center so it would be like a spoon a spoon doesn't would be like a spoon a spoon doesn't would be like a spoon a spoon doesn't have a like it's the same as its Mirror have a like it's the same as its Mirror have a like it's the same as its Mirror Image it's not like a hand that's Image it's not like a hand that's Image it's not like a hand that's different than its Mirror Image but if different than its Mirror Image but if different than its Mirror Image but if you get to like this threshold um you get to like this threshold um you get to like this threshold um boundary above that boundary almost boundary above that boundary almost boundary above that boundary almost every single molecule is chyal so you go every single molecule is chyal so you go every single molecule is chyal so you go from a universe where almost nothing has from a universe where almost nothing has from a universe where almost nothing has a mirror image form there's no mirror a mirror image form there's no mirror a mirror image form there's no mirror image Universe of possibilities to this image Universe of possibilities to this image Universe of possibilities to this one where every single structure has one where every single structure has one where every single structure has pretty much a mirror image version and pretty much a mirror image version and pretty much a mirror image version and what we've been looking at in my lab is what we've been looking at in my lab is what we've been looking at in my lab is that it seems to be the case that the that it seems to be the case that the that it seems to be the case that the original life transition happens around original life transition happens around original life transition happens around the time when you start accumulating you the time when you start accumulating you the time when you start accumulating you you push your molecules to a large

you push your molecules to a large you push your molecules to a large enough complexity that KY chyal enough complexity that KY chyal enough complexity that KY chyal molecules become very likely to form and molecules become very likely to form and molecules become very likely to form and then there's a Cascade of molecular then there's a Cascade of molecular then there's a Cascade of molecular recognition where where chyal molecules recognition where where chyal molecules recognition where where chyal molecules can recognize each other and then you can recognize each other and then you can recognize each other and then you get this sort of autoc catalic feedback get this sort of autoc catalic feedback get this sort of autoc catalic feedback and things self-reinforcing so is and things self-reinforcing so is and things self-reinforcing so is chirality in chirality in chirality in itself interesting feature is just an itself interesting feature is just an itself interesting feature is just an accident of no it's a super interesting accident of no it's a super interesting accident of no it's a super interesting feature I think chirality breaks feature I think chirality breaks feature I think chirality breaks Symmetry and time not space so we think Symmetry and time not space so we think Symmetry and time not space so we think of it as a space spatial property uh of it as a space spatial property uh of it as a space spatial property uh like a left and right hand but if I like a left and right hand but if I like a left and right hand but if I choose the left hand I'm basically choose the left hand I'm basically choose the left hand I'm basically choosing the future of that system for choosing the future of that system for choosing the future of that system for all time because I've basically made a all time because I've basically made a all time because I've basically made a choice between the ways that that choice between the ways that that choice between the ways that that molecule can now react with every other molecule can now react with every other molecule can now react with every other object in its chemical Universe oh I see object in its chemical Universe oh I see object in its chemical Universe oh I see and so you've you're actually like when and so you've you're actually like when and so you've you're actually like when you have this splitting of making a you have this splitting of making a you have this splitting of making a molecule that now has another form it molecule that now has another form it molecule that now has another form it could have had uh by the same exact could have had uh by the same exact could have had uh by the same exact Atomic composition but now it's just a Atomic composition but now it's just a Atomic composition but now it's just a mirror image isometry you're basically mirror image isometry you're basically mirror image isometry you're basically splitting the universe of possibilities splitting the universe of possibilities splitting the universe of possibilities every time yeah in two in two but every time yeah in two in two but every time yeah in two in two but molecules can have more than one chyro molecules can have more than one chyro molecules can have more than one chyro Center and that's not the only Center and that's not the only Center and that's not the only stereometry that they can have so this stereometry that they can have so this stereometry that they can have so this is one of the reasons that all fills 1.5 is one of the reasons that all fills 1.5 is one of the reasons that all fills 1.5 universes of space it's all of these universes of space it's all of these universes of space it's all of these spatial permutations that you do on spatial permutations that you do on spatial permutations that you do on these objects that actually makes the these objects that actually makes the these objects that actually makes the space so huge so the point of this this space so huge so the point of this this space so huge so the point of this this sort of chyal transition that I'm I'm sort of chyal transition that I'm I'm sort of chyal transition that I'm I'm pointing out is is chirality is actually pointing out is is chirality is actually pointing out is is chirality is actually signature of being in a complex chemical signature of being in a complex chemical signature of being in a complex chemical space um and the fact that we we think space um and the fact that we we think space um and the fact that we we think it's a really generic feature of it's a really generic feature of it's a really generic feature of chemistry and it's really prevalent is chemistry and it's really prevalent is chemistry and it's really prevalent is because most of the chemistry we study because most of the chemistry we study because most of the chemistry we study on Earth is a product already of life on Earth is a product already of life on Earth is a product already of life and it also has to do with this

and it also has to do with this and it also has to do with this transition and assembly this transition transition and assembly this transition transition and assembly this transition and possibility space is because I I and possibility space is because I I and possibility space is because I I think there's something really think there's something really think there's something really fundamental going on at this boundary um fundamental going on at this boundary um fundamental going on at this boundary um that you don't really need to go that that you don't really need to go that that you don't really need to go that far into chemical space if you can to far into chemical space if you can to far into chemical space if you can to actually see life in terms of this depth actually see life in terms of this depth actually see life in terms of this depth in time this depth in in symmetries of in time this depth in in symmetries of in time this depth in in symmetries of objects in terms of like chyro objects in terms of like chyro objects in terms of like chyro symmetries or this assembly structure um symmetries or this assembly structure um symmetries or this assembly structure um but but getting past this boundary but but getting past this boundary but but getting past this boundary that's that's not very deep in that that's that's not very deep in that that's that's not very deep in that space requires life it's a it's a really space requires life it's a it's a really space requires life it's a it's a really it's a really weird property and it's it's a really weird property and it's it's a really weird property and it's really weird that so many abrupt things really weird that so many abrupt things really weird that so many abrupt things happen in chemistry at that same scale happen in chemistry at that same scale happen in chemistry at that same scale so would that be the the greatest so would that be the the greatest so would that be the the greatest invention ever made on Earth in its invention ever made on Earth in its invention ever made on Earth in its evolutionary history so I really like evolutionary history so I really like evolutionary history so I really like that formulation of it uh Nick Lane has that formulation of it uh Nick Lane has that formulation of it uh Nick Lane has a book called life ascending where he a book called life ascending where he a book called life ascending where he lists the 10 great inventions of lists the 10 great inventions of lists the 10 great inventions of evolution the origin of life being first evolution the origin of life being first evolution the origin of life being first and DNA the hereditary material that and DNA the hereditary material that and DNA the hereditary material that encos the genetic instructions for all encos the genetic instructions for all encos the genetic instructions for all living or organisms then photosynthesis living or organisms then photosynthesis living or organisms then photosynthesis the process that allows organisms to the process that allows organisms to the process that allows organisms to convert sunlight into chemical energy convert sunlight into chemical energy convert sunlight into chemical energy producing oxygen as a byproduct the producing oxygen as a byproduct the producing oxygen as a byproduct the complex cell eukariotic cells which complex cell eukariotic cells which complex cell eukariotic cells which contain a nucleus and organel arose from contain a nucleus and organel arose from contain a nucleus and organel arose from simple bacterial cells sex sexual simple bacterial cells sex sexual simple bacterial cells sex sexual reproduction movement so just the reproduction movement so just the reproduction movement so just the ability to move under which you have the ability to move under which you have the ability to move under which you have the predation the Predators and ability of predation the Predators and ability of predation the Predators and ability of living organ in there that's cool yeah I

living organ in there that's cool yeah I living organ in there that's cool yeah I but a movement includes a lot of but a movement includes a lot of but a movement includes a lot of interesting stuff in there like Predator interesting stuff in there like Predator interesting stuff in there like Predator pre Dynamic right which not to pre Dynamic right which not to pre Dynamic right which not to romanticize a Nature's metal that seems romanticize a Nature's metal that seems romanticize a Nature's metal that seems like an important one I don't know it's like an important one I don't know it's like an important one I don't know it's such a such a such a computationally powerful thing to have a computationally powerful thing to have a computationally powerful thing to have a predator and prey well it's efficient predator and prey well it's efficient predator and prey well it's efficient for things to eat other things that are for things to eat other things that are for things to eat other things that are already alive because they don't have to already alive because they don't have to already alive because they don't have to go all the way back to the base go all the way back to the base go all the way back to the base chemistry well that but maybe I just chemistry well that but maybe I just chemistry well that but maybe I just like deadlines but it creates an urgency like deadlines but it creates an urgency like deadlines but it creates an urgency you're going to get eaten you got to you're going to get eaten you got to you're going to get eaten you got to live yeah like so survival it's not just live yeah like so survival it's not just live yeah like so survival it's not just the static environment you're better the static environment you're better the static environment you're better against you're like yeah the the the against you're like yeah the the the against you're like yeah the the the dangers against which you're trying to dangers against which you're trying to dangers against which you're trying to survive are also evolving this so just survive are also evolving this so just survive are also evolving this so just much faster way to uh explore the space much faster way to uh explore the space much faster way to uh explore the space of possibilities I actually think it's a of possibilities I actually think it's a of possibilities I actually think it's a gift that we don't have much time yes uh gift that we don't have much time yes uh gift that we don't have much time yes uh sight the ability to see so the sight the ability to see so the sight the ability to see so the increasing complexifying of sensory increasing complexifying of sensory increasing complexifying of sensory organisms organisms organisms Consciousness and death Consciousness and death Consciousness and death the concept of programmed cell of death the concept of programmed cell of death the concept of programmed cell of death these are these are these are all inventions yeah along the line I all inventions yeah along the line I all inventions yeah along the line I like invention as a word for them I like invention as a word for them I like invention as a word for them I think that's good which are the more think that's good which are the more think that's good which are the more interesting inventions to you what interesting inventions to you what interesting inventions to you what origin of life because you kind of are origin of life because you kind of are origin of life because you kind of are not glorifying the origin of life and not glorifying the origin of life and not glorifying the origin of life and self there's a there's a process no I self there's a there's a process no I self there's a there's a process no I think the origin of life is a continual think the origin of life is a continual think the origin of life is a continual process that's why I'm interested in the process that's why I'm interested in the process that's why I'm interested in the first transition and solving that first transition and solving that first transition and solving that problem because I think it's the hardest problem because I think it's the hardest problem because I think it's the hardest but I think I think I think it's but I think I think I think it's but I think I think I think it's happening all the time when you look

happening all the time when you look happening all the time when you look back at the history of Earth like what back at the history of Earth like what back at the history of Earth like what are you impressed to happen I like sight are you impressed to happen I like sight are you impressed to happen I like sight um as an invention uh cuz I think having um as an invention uh cuz I think having um as an invention uh cuz I think having sensory perception and trying to sensory perception and trying to sensory perception and trying to comprehend the world to use comprehend the world to use comprehend the world to use anthropocentric terms is like a really anthropocentric terms is like a really anthropocentric terms is like a really critical feature of life and I also it's critical feature of life and I also it's critical feature of life and I also it's interesting the way that site has interesting the way that site has interesting the way that site has complexified over time right so like if complexified over time right so like if complexified over time right so like if you think at the original life uh you think at the original life uh you think at the original life uh nothing on the planet could see nothing on the planet could see nothing on the planet could see mhm right so like for a long time life mhm right so like for a long time life mhm right so like for a long time life had no sight um and then you know like had no sight um and then you know like had no sight um and then you know like Photon receptors were invented and then Photon receptors were invented and then Photon receptors were invented and then when multicellularity evolved those when multicellularity evolved those when multicellularity evolved those cells eventually grew into eyes and we cells eventually grew into eyes and we cells eventually grew into eyes and we had the multicellular eye and then it's had the multicellular eye and then it's had the multicellular eye and then it's interesting when you get to societies interesting when you get to societies interesting when you get to societies like human societies that we invent even like human societies that we invent even like human societies that we invent even better Technologies of seeing like better Technologies of seeing like better Technologies of seeing like telescopes and microscopes uh which telescopes and microscopes uh which telescopes and microscopes uh which allow us to see deeper into the universe allow us to see deeper into the universe allow us to see deeper into the universe or at smaller scales um so I think I or at smaller scales um so I think I or at smaller scales um so I think I think that's pretty profound the way think that's pretty profound the way think that's pretty profound the way that site has that site has that site has transformed the ability of life to transformed the ability of life to transformed the ability of life to literally see uh the reality in which literally see uh the reality in which literally see uh the reality in which it's existing in it's existing in it's existing in um I think Consciousness is um I think Consciousness is um I think Consciousness is also obviously deeply interesting I've also obviously deeply interesting I've also obviously deeply interesting I've gotten kind of obsessed with like gotten kind of obsessed with like gotten kind of obsessed with like octopus I don't like I they're just so octopus I don't like I they're just so octopus I don't like I they're just so weird and the fact that like they

weird and the fact that like they weird and the fact that like they evolved complex nervous systems kind of evolved complex nervous systems kind of evolved complex nervous systems kind of independently is like seems very alien independently is like seems very alien independently is like seems very alien yeah there's a lot of alien like yeah there's a lot of alien like yeah there's a lot of alien like organisms that's another thing I saw in organisms that's another thing I saw in organisms that's another thing I saw in the the the jungle yeah just things that are like oh jungle yeah just things that are like oh jungle yeah just things that are like oh okay they make one of those huh they okay they make one of those huh they okay they make one of those huh they just feels like any just feels like any just feels like any examples there's a frog that's as as examples there's a frog that's as as examples there's a frog that's as as thin as a sheet of paper and I was like thin as a sheet of paper and I was like thin as a sheet of paper and I was like what and it gives birth through like what and it gives birth through like what and it gives birth through like pores like oh I've seen videos of that pores like oh I've seen videos of that pores like oh I've seen videos of that so gross when the babies come out did so gross when the babies come out did so gross when the babies come out did you see that like like in person like you see that like like in person like you see that like like in person like the babies coming out no I saw the uh the babies coming out no I saw the uh the babies coming out no I saw the uh without the have you seen videos of that without the have you seen videos of that without the have you seen videos of that it's so gross it's one of the grossest it's so gross it's one of the grossest it's so gross it's one of the grossest things I've ever seen well so gross is things I've ever seen well so gross is things I've ever seen well so gross is just the other side of beautiful I think just the other side of beautiful I think just the other side of beautiful I think it's like oh wow that that's that's it's like oh wow that that's that's it's like oh wow that that's that's possible I guess if I was one of those possible I guess if I was one of those possible I guess if I was one of those frogs I would think that was the most frogs I would think that was the most frogs I would think that was the most beautiful event I'd ever seen although beautiful event I'd ever seen although beautiful event I'd ever seen although like human child birth is not that like human child birth is not that like human child birth is not that beautiful either yeah it's all a matter beautiful either yeah it's all a matter beautiful either yeah it's all a matter of perspective well we come to the world of perspective well we come to the world of perspective well we come to the world so vient so vient so vient it's just like it's amazing well I mean it's just like it's amazing well I mean it's just like it's amazing well I mean the world is a violent place yeah so the world is a violent place yeah so the world is a violent place yeah so again again again another it's just another side of the another it's just another side of the another it's just another side of the coin you know what this actually makes coin you know what this actually makes coin you know what this actually makes me think of one that's not up there me think of one that's not up there me think of one that's not up there which I do find really incredibly which I do find really incredibly which I do find really incredibly amazing is amazing is amazing is um is the process of like the germline um is the process of like the germline um is the process of like the germline cell cell cell in you know in organisms like basically in you know in organisms like basically in you know in organisms like basically like every living thing on this planet like every living thing on this planet like every living thing on this planet at some point in its life has to go at some point in its life has to go at some point in its life has to go through a single cell

through a single cell through a single cell and this whole issue of like development and this whole issue of like development and this whole issue of like development like the developmental program is kind like the developmental program is kind like the developmental program is kind of crazy like how do you build you out of crazy like how do you build you out of crazy like how do you build you out of a single cell how does a single cell of a single cell how does a single cell of a single cell how does a single cell know how to do that like you know know how to do that like you know know how to do that like you know pattern formation of a multicellular pattern formation of a multicellular pattern formation of a multicellular organism obviously like evolves with DNA organism obviously like evolves with DNA organism obviously like evolves with DNA but there's a lot of stuff happening but there's a lot of stuff happening but there's a lot of stuff happening there about when cells take on certain there about when cells take on certain there about when cells take on certain morphologies and things that people morphologies and things that people morphologies and things that people don't understand like the actual shape don't understand like the actual shape don't understand like the actual shape formation mechanism and a lot of people formation mechanism and a lot of people formation mechanism and a lot of people study that and it's um and there's a lot study that and it's um and there's a lot study that and it's um and there's a lot of advances being made now in that field of advances being made now in that field of advances being made now in that field I think it's pretty shocking though that I think it's pretty shocking though that I think it's pretty shocking though that like how little we know about that like how little we know about that like how little we know about that process uh and often it's left off of process uh and often it's left off of process uh and often it's left off of people's list it's just kind of people's list it's just kind of people's list it's just kind of interesting embryogenesis is fascinating interesting embryogenesis is fascinating interesting embryogenesis is fascinating yeah because it you start from just one yeah because it you start from just one yeah because it you start from just one cell yeah and the genes and all the cell yeah and the genes and all the cell yeah and the genes and all the cells are the same right so like the cells are the same right so like the cells are the same right so like the differentiation has to differentiation has to differentiation has to be something that's like much more about be something that's like much more about be something that's like much more about like the actual like the actual like the actual like you know expression of genes over like you know expression of genes over like you know expression of genes over time and like how they get switched on time and like how they get switched on time and like how they get switched on and off and also the physical and off and also the physical and off and also the physical environment of like the cell interacting environment of like the cell interacting environment of like the cell interacting with others cells and there there's just with others cells and there there's just with others cells and there there's just a lot of stuff going on yeah the a lot of stuff going on yeah the a lot of stuff going on yeah the computation the intelligence of that computation the intelligence of that computation the intelligence of that process yes might be like the most process yes might be like the most process yes might be like the most important thing to understand and we important thing to understand and we important thing to understand and we just kind of don't really think about it just kind of don't really think about it just kind of don't really think about it right we think about the final product right we think about the final product right we think about the final product yeah maybe the the key to understanding yeah maybe the the key to understanding yeah maybe the the key to understanding the organism is understanding that the organism is understanding that the organism is understanding that process not the final product probably process not the final product probably process not the final product probably yes I think most of the things about yes I think most of the things about yes I think most of the things about understanding anything about what we are understanding anything about what we are understanding anything about what we are are embedded in time well of course you are embedded in time well of course you are embedded in time well of course you would say that I know so

would say that I know so would say that I know so [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] predictable it's turning into a predictable it's turning into a predictable it's turning into a deterministic universe it always has deterministic universe it always has deterministic universe it always has been always was like the meme yeah been always was like the meme yeah been always was like the meme yeah always was but it won't be in the future always was but it won't be in the future always was but it won't be in the future well that's before we talk about the well that's before we talk about the well that's before we talk about the future let's talk about the past the future let's talk about the past the future let's talk about the past the assembly theory yes can you uh explain assembly theory yes can you uh explain assembly theory yes can you uh explain assembly Theory to me I listened to Lee assembly Theory to me I listened to Lee assembly Theory to me I listened to Lee talk about it for many hours and I talk about it for many hours and I talk about it for many hours and I understood nothing no I'm just kidding understood nothing no I'm just kidding understood nothing no I'm just kidding uh I just wanted to take another you've uh I just wanted to take another you've uh I just wanted to take another you've been already talking about it but just been already talking about it but just been already talking about it but just just just another just just another just just another just what from a big picture just what from a big picture just what from a big picture view is the assembly Theory way of view is the assembly Theory way of view is the assembly Theory way of thinking about our world about our thinking about our world about our thinking about our world about our universe yeah I think the uh first thing universe yeah I think the uh first thing universe yeah I think the uh first thing is you know that like the observation is you know that like the observation is you know that like the observation that uh life seems to be the only thing that uh life seems to be the only thing that uh life seems to be the only thing the universe that builds complexity in the universe that builds complexity in the universe that builds complexity in the way that we see it here and the way that we see it here and the way that we see it here and complexity is obviously like a loaded complexity is obviously like a loaded complexity is obviously like a loaded term so I'll just use assembly instead term so I'll just use assembly instead term so I'll just use assembly instead uh because I think assembly is more uh because I think assembly is more uh because I think assembly is more precise um but the idea that like you precise um but the idea that like you precise um but the idea that like you know all the things on your desk here know all the things on your desk here know all the things on your desk here from your computer to the pen to uh you from your computer to the pen to uh you from your computer to the pen to uh you know us sitting here don't exist know us sitting here don't exist know us sitting here don't exist anywhere else in the universe as far as anywhere else in the universe as far as anywhere else in the universe as far as we know they only exist on this planet we know they only exist on this planet we know they only exist on this planet and it took a long evolutionary history and it took a long evolutionary history and it took a long evolutionary history to get to us um is a real feature that to get to us um is a real feature that to get to us um is a real feature that we should take seriously as one that's we should take seriously as one that's we should take seriously as one that's deeply embedded in the laws of physics deeply embedded in the laws of physics deeply embedded in the laws of physics and the structure the universe that we and the structure the universe that we and the structure the universe that we live in uh standard physics would say

live in uh standard physics would say live in uh standard physics would say that you know all of that complexity that you know all of that complexity that you know all of that complexity traces back to traces back to traces back to the the the infinitesimal uh deviations and like the infinitesimal uh deviations and like the infinitesimal uh deviations and like the initial state of the universe that there initial state of the universe that there initial state of the universe that there was some order there um I find that was some order there um I find that was some order there um I find that deeply unsatisfactory and uh what deeply unsatisfactory and uh what deeply unsatisfactory and uh what assembly Theory says uh that's very assembly Theory says uh that's very assembly Theory says uh that's very different is different is different is that the universe is basically that the universe is basically that the universe is basically constructing itself and when you get to constructing itself and when you get to constructing itself and when you get to these common torial spaces like these common torial spaces like these common torial spaces like chemistry uh where the space of chemistry uh where the space of chemistry uh where the space of possibilities is too large to exhaust possibilities is too large to exhaust possibilities is too large to exhaust them all um you can only construct them all um you can only construct them all um you can only construct things along historically contingent things along historically contingent things along historically contingent paths like you basically have causal paths like you basically have causal paths like you basically have causal chains of events that happen to allow chains of events that happen to allow chains of events that happen to allow other things to come into existence and other things to come into existence and other things to come into existence and uh and that this is the way that complex uh and that this is the way that complex uh and that this is the way that complex objects get formed is basically on objects get formed is basically on objects get formed is basically on scaffolding on the past history of scaffolding on the past history of scaffolding on the past history of objects making more complex objects objects making more complex objects objects making more complex objects making more complex object objects that making more complex object objects that making more complex object objects that idea in itself is easy to State and idea in itself is easy to State and idea in itself is easy to State and simple but it has some really radical simple but it has some really radical simple but it has some really radical implications as far as what you think um implications as far as what you think um implications as far as what you think um is the nature of the physics that would is the nature of the physics that would is the nature of the physics that would describe life and so what a assembly describe life and so what a assembly describe life and so what a assembly Theory does formally is try to measure Theory does formally is try to measure Theory does formally is try to measure the boundary um in the space of all the boundary um in the space of all the boundary um in the space of all things that you know chemically could things that you know chemically could things that you know chemically could exist for example like all possible exist for example like all possible exist for example like all possible molecules where is the boundary above molecules where is the boundary above molecules where is the boundary above which we should say these things are too which we should say these things are too which we should say these things are too complex to happen outside of an complex to happen outside of an complex to happen outside of an evolutionary chain of events outside of evolutionary chain of events outside of evolutionary chain of events outside of selection um and we formalized that um

selection um and we formalized that um selection um and we formalized that um with two observables one of them is the with two observables one of them is the with two observables one of them is the copy number of the object so how many of copy number of the object so how many of copy number of the object so how many of the object Did You observe and the the object Did You observe and the the object Did You observe and the second one is what's the minimal number second one is what's the minimal number second one is what's the minimal number of recursive steps to make it so if you of recursive steps to make it so if you of recursive steps to make it so if you start from elementary building blocks start from elementary building blocks start from elementary building blocks like bonds for molecules and you put like bonds for molecules and you put like bonds for molecules and you put them together and then you take things them together and then you take things them together and then you take things you've made already and build up to the you've made already and build up to the you've made already and build up to the object what's the shortest number of object what's the shortest number of object what's the shortest number of steps you had to take and what what steps you had to take and what what steps you had to take and what what Lee's been able to show in the lab with Lee's been able to show in the lab with Lee's been able to show in the lab with his team is that for organic his team is that for organic his team is that for organic chemistry uh it's about 15 Steps and chemistry uh it's about 15 Steps and chemistry uh it's about 15 Steps and then you only see molecules uh that you then you only see molecules uh that you then you only see molecules uh that you know the only molecules that we observe know the only molecules that we observe know the only molecules that we observe that are past that threshold are ones that are past that threshold are ones that are past that threshold are ones that are are in life and in fact one of that are are in life and in fact one of that are are in life and in fact one of the things I'm trying to do with this the things I'm trying to do with this the things I'm trying to do with this idea of like trying to actually quantify idea of like trying to actually quantify idea of like trying to actually quantify the origin of Life as a transition in the origin of Life as a transition in the origin of Life as a transition in like a phase transition assembly theory like a phase transition assembly theory like a phase transition assembly theory is actually be able to um explain why is actually be able to um explain why is actually be able to um explain why that boundary is where it is because I that boundary is where it is because I that boundary is where it is because I think that's actually the boundary that think that's actually the boundary that think that's actually the boundary that life must cross so the idea of going life must cross so the idea of going life must cross so the idea of going back to this thing we're talking about back to this thing we're talking about back to this thing we're talking about before about these these structures that before about these these structures that before about these these structures that can reinforce their own existence and can reinforce their own existence and can reinforce their own existence and move past that boundary uh 15 seems to move past that boundary uh 15 seems to move past that boundary uh 15 seems to be that boundary in chemical space uh be that boundary in chemical space uh be that boundary in chemical space uh it's not a universal number it will be it's not a universal number it will be it's not a universal number it will be different for different assembly spaces different for different assembly spaces different for different assembly spaces um but that's what we've experimentally um but that's what we've experimentally um but that's what we've experimentally validated so far and then so literally validated so far and then so literally validated so far and then so literally 15 like the assembly index is 15 it's 15 15 like the assembly index is 15 it's 15 15 like the assembly index is 15 it's 15 or so for the experimental data yeah so or so for the experimental data yeah so or so for the experimental data yeah so that's when you start getting the that's when you start getting the that's when you start getting the self-reinforcing that's when you have to self-reinforcing that's when you have to self-reinforcing that's when you have to have that feature in order for to

have that feature in order for to have that feature in order for to observe molecules in high abundance in observe molecules in high abundance in observe molecules in high abundance in that space so the copy number is the the that space so the copy number is the the that space so the copy number is the the number of exact copies that's what you number of exact copies that's what you number of exact copies that's what you mean by high abundance and assembly mean by high abundance and assembly mean by high abundance and assembly index or the complexity of the object is index or the complexity of the object is index or the complexity of the object is how many steps it took to create it how many steps it took to create it how many steps it took to create it recursive recursive yeah so you can recursive recursive yeah so you can recursive recursive yeah so you can think of objects in assembly theory is think of objects in assembly theory is think of objects in assembly theory is basically recursive stacks of the the basically recursive stacks of the the basically recursive stacks of the the construction steps to build them so construction steps to build them so construction steps to build them so they're like it's like I you take this they're like it's like I you take this they're like it's like I you take this step and then you make this object and step and then you make this object and step and then you make this object and you make it this object and make this you make it this object and make this you make it this object and make this object and then you get up to the final object and then you get up to the final object and then you get up to the final object but that object is all of that object but that object is all of that object but that object is all of that history rolled up into the current history rolled up into the current history rolled up into the current structure what if you took the long way structure what if you took the long way structure what if you took the long way home the you can't take the long way why home the you can't take the long way why home the you can't take the long way why not the long way doesn't exist it's a not the long way doesn't exist it's a not the long way doesn't exist it's a good song though uh what do you mean the good song though uh what do you mean the good song though uh what do you mean the long way doesn't exist if I do if I do a long way doesn't exist if I do if I do a long way doesn't exist if I do if I do a random walk from A to B I'll eventually random walk from A to B I'll eventually random walk from A to B I'll eventually if I start at a I'll eventually end up if I start at a I'll eventually end up if I start at a I'll eventually end up at B and that random walk be at B and that random walk be at B and that random walk be longer than the no if you look at longer than the no if you look at longer than the no if you look at objects and you so the we we Define objects and you so the we we Define objects and you so the we we Define something we call the assembly universe something we call the assembly universe something we call the assembly universe and the assembly universe is ordered in and the assembly universe is ordered in and the assembly universe is ordered in time it's actually ordered in in the time it's actually ordered in in the time it's actually ordered in in the causation the number of steps to produce causation the number of steps to produce causation the number of steps to produce an object and so all objects in the an object and so all objects in the an object and so all objects in the universe are in some sense um existed a universe are in some sense um existed a universe are in some sense um existed a layer that's defined by their assembly layer that's defined by their assembly layer that's defined by their assembly index um and the size of each layer is index um and the size of each layer is index um and the size of each layer is growing growing growing exponentially so what you're talking exponentially so what you're talking exponentially so what you're talking about if you want to look at the long about if you want to look at the long about if you want to look at the long way of getting to an object as I'm way of getting to an object as I'm way of getting to an object as I'm increasing the assembly index of an increasing the assembly index of an increasing the assembly index of an object I'm moving deeper and deeper into object I'm moving deeper and deeper into object I'm moving deeper and deeper into an exponentially growing space and it's

an exponentially growing space and it's an exponentially growing space and it's actually also the case that the sort of actually also the case that the sort of actually also the case that the sort of typical path to get to that object is typical path to get to that object is typical path to get to that object is also exponentially growing with respect also exponentially growing with respect also exponentially growing with respect to the assembly index and so if you want to the assembly index and so if you want to the assembly index and so if you want to try to make a more and more complex to try to make a more and more complex to try to make a more and more complex object and you want to do it by a a a object and you want to do it by a a a object and you want to do it by a a a typical path that's actually an typical path that's actually an typical path that's actually an exponentially receding Horizon and so exponentially receding Horizon and so exponentially receding Horizon and so most objects that come into existence most objects that come into existence most objects that come into existence have to be causally very similar to the have to be causally very similar to the have to be causally very similar to the things that exist cuz they're close by things that exist cuz they're close by things that exist cuz they're close by in that space and they can actually get in that space and they can actually get in that space and they can actually get to it by an almost shortest path for to it by an almost shortest path for to it by an almost shortest path for that object yeah the the almost shortest that object yeah the the almost shortest that object yeah the the almost shortest path is the most likely and like by a path is the most likely and like by a path is the most likely and like by a lot by a lot okay so if you see a high lot by a lot okay so if you see a high lot by a lot okay so if you see a high copy number yeah imagine greater than copy number yeah imagine greater than copy number yeah imagine greater than one yeah I mean basically we live the one yeah I mean basically we live the one yeah I mean basically we live the more complex we get we live in a a space more complex we get we live in a a space more complex we get we live in a a space that is growing exponentially large and that is growing exponentially large and that is growing exponentially large and the the ways of getting to objects in the the ways of getting to objects in the the ways of getting to objects in the space are also growing exponentially the space are also growing exponentially the space are also growing exponentially large and so we're this kind of uh large and so we're this kind of uh large and so we're this kind of uh recursively like stacked structure of recursively like stacked structure of recursively like stacked structure of like all of these objects that are like all of these objects that are like all of these objects that are Clinging On to each other for existence Clinging On to each other for existence Clinging On to each other for existence and then they like grab something else and then they like grab something else and then they like grab something else and are allow like able to bring that and are allow like able to bring that and are allow like able to bring that thing into existence because it's kind thing into existence because it's kind thing into existence because it's kind of similar to them but there is a face of similar to them but there is a face of similar to them but there is a face transition there is a there is a transition there is a there is a transition there is a there is a transition there is a place where you transition there is a place where you transition there is a place where you would say oh that's I think it's would say oh that's I think it's would say oh that's I think it's actually abrupt I've never been able to actually abrupt I've never been able to actually abrupt I've never been able to say that in in my entire career before say that in in my entire career before say that in in my entire career before I've always gone back and forth about I've always gone back and forth about I've always gone back and forth about whether the original life was kind of whether the original life was kind of whether the original life was kind of gradual or abrupt I think it's very gradual or abrupt I think it's very gradual or abrupt I think it's very abrupt abrupt abrupt uh poetically literally with snaps okay uh poetically literally with snaps okay uh poetically literally with snaps okay that's very snaps okay we'll be poetic that's very snaps okay we'll be poetic that's very snaps okay we'll be poetic today but no I think there's like a lot

today but no I think there's like a lot today but no I think there's like a lot of random exploration and then there's of random exploration and then there's of random exploration and then there's like and then the structure the like and then the structure the like and then the structure the possibility space just collapses on the possibility space just collapses on the possibility space just collapses on the structure kind of really fast um that structure kind of really fast um that structure kind of really fast um that can reinforce its own existence because can reinforce its own existence because can reinforce its own existence because it's basically fighting against it's basically fighting against it's basically fighting against non-existence yeah you uh tweeted the non-existence yeah you uh tweeted the non-existence yeah you uh tweeted the most significant struggle for existence most significant struggle for existence most significant struggle for existence in The evolutionary process is not among in The evolutionary process is not among in The evolutionary process is not among the objects that do exist but between the objects that do exist but between the objects that do exist but between the ones that do and those that never the ones that do and those that never the ones that do and those that never have the chance to this is where have the chance to this is where have the chance to this is where selection does most of its C cause of selection does most of its C cause of selection does most of its C cause of work the the objects that never get a work the the objects that never get a work the the objects that never get a chance to exist yeah the struggle chance to exist yeah the struggle chance to exist yeah the struggle between the ones that never get a chance between the ones that never get a chance between the ones that never get a chance to exist and the ones that okay what to exist and the ones that okay what to exist and the ones that okay what what's that line exactly I don't know we what's that line exactly I don't know we what's that line exactly I don't know we can make songs out of all of these what can make songs out of all of these what can make songs out of all of these what are the objects that never get a chance are the objects that never get a chance are the objects that never get a chance to exist what does that mean so there to exist what does that mean so there to exist what does that mean so there was there was this uh website I forgot was there was this uh website I forgot was there was this uh website I forgot what it was but it's like it's like a a what it was but it's like it's like a a what it was but it's like it's like a a neural network that just generates a neural network that just generates a neural network that just generates a human face and it's like this person human face and it's like this person human face and it's like this person does not exist I think that's what it's does not exist I think that's what it's does not exist I think that's what it's called right so you can just click on called right so you can just click on called right so you can just click on that all day and you can look at people that all day and you can look at people that all day and you can look at people all day that don't exist yeah all of all day that don't exist yeah all of all day that don't exist yeah all of those people exist in that space of those people exist in that space of those people exist in that space of things that don't things that don't things that don't exist yeah but there's uh the real exist yeah but there's uh the real exist yeah but there's uh the real struggle yeah so the struggle of of the struggle yeah so the struggle of of the struggle yeah so the struggle of of the quote the struggle of for existence is quote the struggle of for existence is quote the struggle of for existence is you know that goes all the way back to you know that goes all the way back to you know that goes all the way back to Darwin's writing about natural selection Darwin's writing about natural selection Darwin's writing about natural selection right so like the whole idea of survival right so like the whole idea of survival right so like the whole idea of survival of the fittest is everything struggling of the fittest is everything struggling of the fittest is everything struggling to exist this Predator prey Dynamic um to exist this Predator prey Dynamic um to exist this Predator prey Dynamic um and and the fittest survive and so the and and the fittest survive and so the and and the fittest survive and so the struggle for existence is really what struggle for existence is really what struggle for existence is really what selection is all about but you're and

selection is all about but you're and selection is all about but you're and that's true uh we do see things that do that's true uh we do see things that do that's true uh we do see things that do exist competing to continue to exist um exist competing to continue to exist um exist competing to continue to exist um but each time that like if you think but each time that like if you think but each time that like if you think about this space of possibilities and about this space of possibilities and about this space of possibilities and you know each time the universe you know you know each time the universe you know you know each time the universe you know generates a new structure like a an an generates a new structure like a an an generates a new structure like a an an object object object that exists generates a new structure that exists generates a new structure that exists generates a new structure along this causal chain it's generating along this causal chain it's generating along this causal chain it's generating something that exists that never existed something that exists that never existed something that exists that never existed before and each time that we make that before and each time that we make that before and each time that we make that kind of decision we're excluding a huge kind of decision we're excluding a huge kind of decision we're excluding a huge space of possibilities and so actually space of possibilities and so actually space of possibilities and so actually like as this process of increasing like as this process of increasing like as this process of increasing assembly index it's not just that like assembly index it's not just that like assembly index it's not just that like the space that these objects exist in is the space that these objects exist in is the space that these objects exist in is exponentially growing but there are exponentially growing but there are exponentially growing but there are there are objects in that space that are there are objects in that space that are there are objects in that space that are exponentially receding away from us so exponentially receding away from us so exponentially receding away from us so they're becoming exponentially less and they're becoming exponentially less and they're becoming exponentially less and less likely to ever exist and so less likely to ever exist and so less likely to ever exist and so existence excludes a huge number of existence excludes a huge number of existence excludes a huge number of things just because of the accident of things just because of the accident of things just because of the accident of History how it ended up yeah it's it it History how it ended up yeah it's it it History how it ended up yeah it's it it is in part an accident because I think I is in part an accident because I think I is in part an accident because I think I think some of the the structure that think some of the the structure that think some of the the structure that gets generated is is driven a bit by gets generated is is driven a bit by gets generated is is driven a bit by Randomness um I think a lot of it you Randomness um I think a lot of it you Randomness um I think a lot of it you know so uh you know one of the know so uh you know one of the know so uh you know one of the conceptions that we have in assembly conceptions that we have in assembly conceptions that we have in assembly theory is you know the universe is theory is you know the universe is theory is you know the universe is random at its base you can see in random at its base you can see in random at its base you can see in chemistry like unconstrained chemical chemistry like unconstrained chemical chemistry like unconstrained chemical reactions are pretty random uh and then reactions are pretty random uh and then reactions are pretty random uh and then and also quantum mechanics you know like and also quantum mechanics you know like and also quantum mechanics you know like there's less places that that give there's less places that that give there's less places that that give evidence for that um and deterministic

evidence for that um and deterministic evidence for that um and deterministic structures emerge by things that can structures emerge by things that can structures emerge by things that can causally reinforce themselves and causally reinforce themselves and causally reinforce themselves and maintain persistence over time and so we maintain persistence over time and so we maintain persistence over time and so we are some of the most deterministic are some of the most deterministic are some of the most deterministic things in the universe and so like we things in the universe and so like we things in the universe and so like we can generate very regular structure and can generate very regular structure and can generate very regular structure and we can generate new structure along a we can generate new structure along a we can generate new structure along a particular linear aged but the particular linear aged but the particular linear aged but the possibility space at the sort of tips possibility space at the sort of tips possibility space at the sort of tips like the things we can generate next is like the things we can generate next is like the things we can generate next is really huge so there's some really huge so there's some really huge so there's some stochasticity and what we actually you stochasticity and what we actually you stochasticity and what we actually you know instantiate as like the next know instantiate as like the next know instantiate as like the next structures that get built in in the structures that get built in in the structures that get built in in the biosphere um it's not completely biosphere um it's not completely biosphere um it's not completely deterministic because the space of deterministic because the space of deterministic because the space of future possibilities is always larger future possibilities is always larger future possibilities is always larger than the space of things that exist now than the space of things that exist now than the space of things that exist now so how many so how many so how many instantiations of life is out there do instantiations of life is out there do instantiations of life is out there do you you you think uh so how how often does this think uh so how how often does this think uh so how how often does this happen what we see happen here on Earth happen what we see happen here on Earth happen what we see happen here on Earth how often is this process repeated how often is this process repeated how often is this process repeated throughout our galaxy throughout the throughout our galaxy throughout the throughout our galaxy throughout the universe so I I said before like right universe so I I said before like right universe so I I said before like right now I think the original life is a now I think the original life is a now I think the original life is a continuous process on earth like I think continuous process on earth like I think continuous process on earth like I think this this idea of like combinatorial this this idea of like combinatorial this this idea of like combinatorial spaces that our biosphere generates not spaces that our biosphere generates not spaces that our biosphere generates not just chemistry but other spaces um often just chemistry but other spaces um often just chemistry but other spaces um often cross this threshold where they then cross this threshold where they then cross this threshold where they then allow themselves to persist with allow themselves to persist with allow themselves to persist with particular regular structure over time particular regular structure over time particular regular structure over time so language is is another one where you so language is is another one where you so language is is another one where you know like the space of know like the space of know like the space of you know possible configurations of the you know possible configurations of the you know possible configurations of the 26 letters of the English alphabet is 26 letters of the English alphabet is 26 letters of the English alphabet is astronomically large but we use with astronomically large but we use with astronomically large but we use with very high regularity certain structures very high regularity certain structures very high regularity certain structures um and then we associate meaning to them

um and then we associate meaning to them um and then we associate meaning to them because of the regularity of like how because of the regularity of like how because of the regularity of like how much we use them right so meaning is an much we use them right so meaning is an much we use them right so meaning is an emergent property of the causation and emergent property of the causation and emergent property of the causation and the objects and like how often they the objects and like how often they the objects and like how often they recur and and what the relationship of recur and and what the relationship of recur and and what the relationship of the recurrence is to other objects the recurrence is to other objects the recurrence is to other objects meaning is the emerging property okay meaning is the emerging property okay meaning is the emerging property okay got it well this is why you can play got it well this is why you can play got it well this is why you can play with language so much actually so words with language so much actually so words with language so much actually so words don't really carry meaning it's it's don't really carry meaning it's it's don't really carry meaning it's it's just about how you lace them together just about how you lace them together just about how you lace them together yeah but from from where does but you yeah but from from where does but you yeah but from from where does but you don't have a lot of room obviously as as don't have a lot of room obviously as as don't have a lot of room obviously as as a speaker of a given language you don't a speaker of a given language you don't a speaker of a given language you don't have a lot of room with a given word to have a lot of room with a given word to have a lot of room with a given word to wiggle but you do have you do have you wiggle but you do have you do have you wiggle but you do have you do have you have a certain amount of room to push have a certain amount of room to push have a certain amount of room to push the meanings of words yeah and um and I the meanings of words yeah and um and I the meanings of words yeah and um and I do this all the time and you have to do do this all the time and you have to do do this all the time and you have to do it uh with the kind of work that I do it uh with the kind of work that I do it uh with the kind of work that I do because if you want because if you want because if you want to uh discover an abstraction like some to uh discover an abstraction like some to uh discover an abstraction like some kind of concept that we don't understand kind of concept that we don't understand kind of concept that we don't understand yet we it means we don't have the yet we it means we don't have the yet we it means we don't have the language and so the words that we have language and so the words that we have language and so the words that we have are inadequate to describe the things are inadequate to describe the things are inadequate to describe the things this is why we're having a hard time this is why we're having a hard time this is why we're having a hard time talking about assembly Theory because talking about assembly Theory because talking about assembly Theory because it's a newly emerging idea um and so um it's a newly emerging idea um and so um it's a newly emerging idea um and so um so I'm constantly playing with words in so I'm constantly playing with words in so I'm constantly playing with words in different ways to try to convey the different ways to try to convey the different ways to try to convey the meaning that is actually behind the meaning that is actually behind the meaning that is actually behind the words but it's hard to do so you have to words but it's hard to do so you have to words but it's hard to do so you have to wiggle within the constraints yes lots wiggle within the constraints yes lots wiggle within the constraints yes lots of Wiggle the uh the Great orators are of Wiggle the uh the Great orators are of Wiggle the uh the Great orators are are just good at are just good at are just good at wiggling do you wiggling do you wiggling do you wiggle I'm not a very good wiggler no wiggle I'm not a very good wiggler no wiggle I'm not a very good wiggler no this is the problem this is part of the this is the problem this is part of the this is the problem this is part of the problem no I like playing with words a problem no I like playing with words a problem no I like playing with words a lot um you know it's very funny because

lot um you know it's very funny because lot um you know it's very funny because you know like I I know you talked about you know like I I know you talked about you know like I I know you talked about this with Lee but like people are so this with Lee but like people are so this with Lee but like people are so offended by the writing of uh the paper offended by the writing of uh the paper offended by the writing of uh the paper that came out last fall and it was it that came out last fall and it was it that came out last fall and it was it was interesting because the ways that we was interesting because the ways that we was interesting because the ways that we use words were not the way that people use words were not the way that people use words were not the way that people were interacting with the words um and I were interacting with the words um and I were interacting with the words um and I think that was part of the mismatch think that was part of the mismatch think that was part of the mismatch where we were trying to use words in a where we were trying to use words in a where we were trying to use words in a new way because we were trying to new way because we were trying to new way because we were trying to describe something that uh you know describe something that uh you know describe something that uh you know hadn't been described adequately before hadn't been described adequately before hadn't been described adequately before but we had to use the words that but we had to use the words that but we had to use the words that everyone else uses for things that are everyone else uses for things that are everyone else uses for things that are related and so it was really interesting related and so it was really interesting related and so it was really interesting to watch that Clash play out in real to watch that Clash play out in real to watch that Clash play out in real time for me being someone that tries to time for me being someone that tries to time for me being someone that tries to be so precise with my word usage knowing be so precise with my word usage knowing be so precise with my word usage knowing that it's always going to be vague boy that it's always going to be vague boy that it's always going to be vague boy can I relate it's like can I relate it's like can I relate it's like uh what is truth is truth the thing you uh what is truth is truth the thing you uh what is truth is truth the thing you meant when you wrote the words or is meant when you wrote the words or is meant when you wrote the words or is truth the thing that people understood truth the thing that people understood truth the thing that people understood when they read the words oh yeah I I when they read the words oh yeah I I when they read the words oh yeah I I think that compression mechanism into think that compression mechanism into think that compression mechanism into language is really interesting one and language is really interesting one and language is really interesting one and that's why Twitter is a nice exercise I that's why Twitter is a nice exercise I that's why Twitter is a nice exercise I love Twitter you get to write a thing love Twitter you get to write a thing love Twitter you get to write a thing and you think a certain thing when you and you think a certain thing when you and you think a certain thing when you write it and then you get to see all write it and then you get to see all write it and then you get to see all these other people interpret it in all these other people interpret it in all these other people interpret it in all kinds of different ways I use it as an kinds of different ways I use it as an kinds of different ways I use it as an experimental platform for that reason I experimental platform for that reason I experimental platform for that reason I wish there was a higher diversity of wish there was a higher diversity of wish there was a higher diversity of interpretation mechanisms of applied to interpretation mechanisms of applied to interpretation mechanisms of applied to tweets meaning like oh all kinds of tweets meaning like oh all kinds of tweets meaning like oh all kinds of different people would come to it like different people would come to it like different people would come to it like some people that see the good in some people that see the good in some people that see the good in everything and some people that are everything and some people that are everything and some people that are Ultra cynical a bunch of haters and a Ultra cynical a bunch of haters and a Ultra cynical a bunch of haters and a bunch of lovers and a bunch of maybe bunch of lovers and a bunch of maybe bunch of lovers and a bunch of maybe they could do better jobs with

they could do better jobs with they could do better jobs with presenting material to people like you presenting material to people like you presenting material to people like you know the the Rand like like how things know the the Rand like like how things know the the Rand like like how things you know it's like usually based on you know it's like usually based on you know it's like usually based on interest but I think it would be really interest but I think it would be really interest but I think it would be really nice if you got like 10% of your Twitter nice if you got like 10% of your Twitter nice if you got like 10% of your Twitter feed was random stuff sampled from other feed was random stuff sampled from other feed was random stuff sampled from other places that'd be kind of fun true I also places that'd be kind of fun true I also places that'd be kind of fun true I also would love to filter just like would love to filter just like would love to filter just like been uh the response to tweets by like been uh the response to tweets by like been uh the response to tweets by like the people that hate on everything yes the people that hate on everything yes the people that hate on everything yes the people that are oh that would be the people that are oh that would be the people that are oh that would be fantastic the people that are like super fantastic the people that are like super fantastic the people that are like super positive about everything and that positive about everything and that positive about everything and that they'll just kind of I guess normalize they'll just kind of I guess normalize they'll just kind of I guess normalize the response cuz then it'd be cool to the response cuz then it'd be cool to the response cuz then it'd be cool to see if the people that you're usually see if the people that you're usually see if the people that you're usually positive about everything are hating on positive about everything are hating on positive about everything are hating on you or like totally don't understand or you or like totally don't understand or you or like totally don't understand or completely misunderstood yeah usually completely misunderstood yeah usually completely misunderstood yeah usually takes a lot of clicking to find that out takes a lot of clicking to find that out takes a lot of clicking to find that out yeah yeah so be better if it was sorted yeah yeah so be better if it was sorted yeah yeah so be better if it was sorted Yeah the more clicking you Yeah the more clicking you Yeah the more clicking you do the more damaging it is to the soul do the more damaging it is to the soul do the more damaging it is to the soul yeah it's like instead of like like you yeah it's like instead of like like you yeah it's like instead of like like you could have the blue check but you should could have the blue check but you should could have the blue check but you should have like are you a pessimist an have like are you a pessimist an have like are you a pessimist an optimist yeah there a neutral optimist yeah there a neutral optimist yeah there a neutral what rainbow of what rainbow of what rainbow of checks and then you realize there's more checks and then you realize there's more checks and then you realize there's more categories than we can possibly Express categories than we can possibly Express categories than we can possibly Express in colors yeah of course uh people are in colors yeah of course uh people are in colors yeah of course uh people are complex that's our best feature I don't complex that's our best feature I don't complex that's our best feature I don't know how we got to the wiggling required know how we got to the wiggling required know how we got to the wiggling required given the constraints of language given the constraints of language given the constraints of language because I think we started about me because I think we started about me because I think we started about me asking about alien life which which is asking about alien life which which is asking about alien life which which is uh how uh how uh how many different times that the uh face

many different times that the uh face many different times that the uh face transition happen elsewhere do you think transition happen elsewhere do you think transition happen elsewhere do you think there's other alien civilizations out there's other alien civilizations out there's other alien civilizations out there this goes into like the you know there this goes into like the you know there this goes into like the you know like are you on the boundary of insane like are you on the boundary of insane like are you on the boundary of insane or not um but you know when you think or not um but you know when you think or not um but you know when you think about the the structure of the physics about the the structure of the physics about the the structure of the physics of what we are that deeply it really of what we are that deeply it really of what we are that deeply it really changes your conception of things and um changes your conception of things and um changes your conception of things and um you know going to this idea of the you know going to this idea of the you know going to this idea of the Universe Universe Universe um you know being kind of small in um you know being kind of small in um you know being kind of small in physical space compared to how big it is physical space compared to how big it is physical space compared to how big it is in time and like how large we are it in time and like how large we are it in time and like how large we are it really makes me question about whether really makes me question about whether really makes me question about whether there's any other structure that's like there's any other structure that's like there's any other structure that's like this giant crystal in time this giant this giant crystal in time this giant this giant crystal in time this giant causal structure like our biosphere causal structure like our biosphere causal structure like our biosphere techn spere is anywhere else in the techn spere is anywhere else in the techn spere is anywhere else in the universe um why not I don't I don't just universe um why not I don't I don't just universe um why not I don't I don't just because this one is gigantic doesn't because this one is gigantic doesn't because this one is gigantic doesn't mean there's other G there's other mean there's other G there's other mean there's other G there's other gigantic but I think when the universe gigantic but I think when the universe gigantic but I think when the universe is expanding right it's expanding in is expanding right it's expanding in is expanding right it's expanding in space but in assembly Theory it's also space but in assembly Theory it's also space but in assembly Theory it's also expanding in time um and actually that's expanding in time um and actually that's expanding in time um and actually that's driving the expansion in space and the driving the expansion in space and the driving the expansion in space and the expansion in time is also driving the expansion in time is also driving the expansion in time is also driving the the expansion in the sort of the expansion in the sort of the expansion in the sort of combinatorial space of things on our combinatorial space of things on our combinatorial space of things on our planet so that's driving the sort of you planet so that's driving the sort of you planet so that's driving the sort of you know pace of technology and all the know pace of technology and all the know pace of technology and all the other things so time is driving all of other things so time is driving all of other things so time is driving all of these things uh which is a little bit these things uh which is a little bit these things uh which is a little bit crazy to think that the universe is just crazy to think that the universe is just crazy to think that the universe is just getting bigger because time is getting getting bigger because time is getting getting bigger because time is getting bigger um but like the sort of visual bigger um but like the sort of visual bigger um but like the sort of visual that gets built in my brain about that that gets built in my brain about that that gets built in my brain about that is like the structure that we're is like the structure that we're is like the structure that we're building on this planet is packing more

building on this planet is packing more building on this planet is packing more and more time in this very small volume and more time in this very small volume and more time in this very small volume of space right cuz our planet hasn't of space right cuz our planet hasn't of space right cuz our planet hasn't changed its physical size in 4 billion changed its physical size in 4 billion changed its physical size in 4 billion years but there's like a ton of years but there's like a ton of years but there's like a ton of causation causation causation uh and recursion and time whatever word uh and recursion and time whatever word uh and recursion and time whatever word you want to use information packed into you want to use information packed into you want to use information packed into this and I think this is also you know this and I think this is also you know this and I think this is also you know embedded in sort of the virtualization embedded in sort of the virtualization embedded in sort of the virtualization of our Technologies or the abstraction of our Technologies or the abstraction of our Technologies or the abstraction of language and all of these things of language and all of these things of language and all of these things these these these things that seem these these these things that seem these these these things that seem really abstract are just really deep in really abstract are just really deep in really abstract are just really deep in time um and so uh so what that looks time um and so uh so what that looks time um and so uh so what that looks like is you have a a planet that becomes like is you have a a planet that becomes like is you have a a planet that becomes increasingly virtualized and so it's increasingly virtualized and so it's increasingly virtualized and so it's getting bigger and bigger in time but getting bigger and bigger in time but getting bigger and bigger in time but not really expanding out in space and not really expanding out in space and not really expanding out in space and the rest of space is like kind of moving the rest of space is like kind of moving the rest of space is like kind of moving away from it it's again it's a sort of away from it it's again it's a sort of away from it it's again it's a sort of exponentially receding Horizon and I'm exponentially receding Horizon and I'm exponentially receding Horizon and I'm just not sure how far into this just not sure how far into this just not sure how far into this evolutionary process something gets if evolutionary process something gets if evolutionary process something gets if it can ever see that there's another it can ever see that there's another it can ever see that there's another such structure out there what do you such structure out there what do you such structure out there what do you mean by virtualized in that context mean by virtualized in that context mean by virtualized in that context virtual as sort of a play on virtual virtual as sort of a play on virtual virtual as sort of a play on virtual reality and like simulation theories um reality and like simulation theories um reality and like simulation theories um but virtual also in a sense of uh you but virtual also in a sense of uh you but virtual also in a sense of uh you know we talk about virtual particles in know we talk about virtual particles in know we talk about virtual particles in um in particle physics which you know um in particle physics which you know um in particle physics which you know they they are very critical to doing they they are very critical to doing they they are very critical to doing calculations about predicting the calculations about predicting the calculations about predicting the properties of real particles but we properties of real particles but we properties of real particles but we don't observe them directly so what I don't observe them directly so what I don't observe them directly so what I mean by virtual here is virtual reality mean by virtual here is virtual reality mean by virtual here is virtual reality for me things that appear virtual appear for me things that appear virtual appear for me things that appear virtual appear abstract are just things that are very abstract are just things that are very abstract are just things that are very deep in time in the in the structure of

deep in time in the in the structure of deep in time in the in the structure of the things that we are so if you think the things that we are so if you think the things that we are so if you think about you as a 4 billion year old object about you as a 4 billion year old object about you as a 4 billion year old object uh the things that are part of you like uh the things that are part of you like uh the things that are part of you like your Capac to use language or think your Capac to use language or think your Capac to use language or think abstractly or have mathematics are just abstractly or have mathematics are just abstractly or have mathematics are just very you know like deep temporal very you know like deep temporal very you know like deep temporal structures that's why they look like structures that's why they look like structures that's why they look like they're informational and Abstract is they're informational and Abstract is they're informational and Abstract is because they're like they're existing in because they're like they're existing in because they're like they're existing in this temporal part of you but not this temporal part of you but not this temporal part of you but not necessarily spatial part just because I necessarily spatial part just because I necessarily spatial part just because I have a 4 billion year old history why have a 4 billion year old history why have a 4 billion year old history why does that mean I can't hang out with does that mean I can't hang out with does that mean I can't hang out with aliens there's a couple ideas that are aliens there's a couple ideas that are aliens there's a couple ideas that are embedded here so one of them comes again embedded here so one of them comes again embedded here so one of them comes again from Paul he wrote this book years ago from Paul he wrote this book years ago from Paul he wrote this book years ago about about about um you know like the Eerie silence and um you know like the Eerie silence and um you know like the Eerie silence and why we're alone and he concluded the why we're alone and he concluded the why we're alone and he concluded the book with this idea of Quint book with this idea of Quint book with this idea of Quint intelligence or something but like this intelligence or something but like this intelligence or something but like this idea that like really advanced idea that like really advanced idea that like really advanced intelligence would basically just um intelligence would basically just um intelligence would basically just um build itself into a quantum computer and build itself into a quantum computer and build itself into a quantum computer and it would want to operate in the vacuum it would want to operate in the vacuum it would want to operate in the vacuum of space because that's the best place of space because that's the best place of space because that's the best place to do Quantum computation and it would to do Quantum computation and it would to do Quantum computation and it would just like run out all of its just like run out all of its just like run out all of its computations indefinitely but it would computations indefinitely but it would computations indefinitely but it would look completely dark to the rest of the look completely dark to the rest of the look completely dark to the rest of the universe and I don't think as as typical universe and I don't think as as typical universe and I don't think as as typical like I don't think that's actually like like I don't think that's actually like like I don't think that's actually like the right physics but I think something the right physics but I think something the right physics but I think something about that idea as I do with all ideas about that idea as I do with all ideas about that idea as I do with all ideas is partially correct and frean Dyson is partially correct and frean Dyson is partially correct and frean Dyson also had this amazing paper about how also had this amazing paper about how also had this amazing paper about how long life could persist in a universe long life could persist in a universe long life could persist in a universe that was exponentially expanding and his that was exponentially expanding and his that was exponentially expanding and his conception was like if you imagine an conception was like if you imagine an conception was like if you imagine an analog life form uh it could run slower analog life form uh it could run slower analog life form uh it could run slower and slower and slower and slower and and slower and slower and slower and and slower and slower and slower and slower as a function of time and so it slower as a function of time and so it slower as a function of time and so it would um it would be able to run would um it would be able to run would um it would be able to run indefinitely even against an

indefinitely even against an indefinitely even against an exponentially expanding Universe because exponentially expanding Universe because exponentially expanding Universe because it would just run exponentially slower it would just run exponentially slower it would just run exponentially slower and so I guess part of what I'm doing in and so I guess part of what I'm doing in and so I guess part of what I'm doing in my brain is putting those those two my brain is putting those those two my brain is putting those those two things together along with this idea things together along with this idea things together along with this idea that we are building um you know like if that we are building um you know like if that we are building um you know like if if you imagine with our technology we're if you imagine with our technology we're if you imagine with our technology we're now building virtual realities right now building virtual realities right now building virtual realities right like things we actually call virtual like things we actually call virtual like things we actually call virtual reality which required you know four reality which required you know four reality which required you know four billions of years of history and a whole billions of years of history and a whole billions of years of history and a whole bunch of data to basically embed them in bunch of data to basically embed them in bunch of data to basically embed them in a computer architecture so now you can a computer architecture so now you can a computer architecture so now you can put like you know an Oculus headset on put like you know an Oculus headset on put like you know an Oculus headset on and think that you're in this world and think that you're in this world and think that you're in this world right and what you really are embedded right and what you really are embedded right and what you really are embedded in is in a very deep temporal structure in is in a very deep temporal structure in is in a very deep temporal structure and so it's huge in time but it's very and so it's huge in time but it's very and so it's huge in time but it's very small in space and you can go lots of small in space and you can go lots of small in space and you can go lots of places in the virtual space right but places in the virtual space right but places in the virtual space right but you're still stuck in like your physical you're still stuck in like your physical you're still stuck in like your physical body and like sitting in the chair and body and like sitting in the chair and body and like sitting in the chair and so you know part of it is it might be so you know part of it is it might be so you know part of it is it might be the case that sufficiently the case that sufficiently the case that sufficiently evolved uh biospheres kind of virtualize evolved uh biospheres kind of virtualize evolved uh biospheres kind of virtualize themselves and they internalize their themselves and they internalize their themselves and they internalize their Universe in their sort of temporal Universe in their sort of temporal Universe in their sort of temporal causal structure and they close causal structure and they close causal structure and they close themselves off from the rest of the themselves off from the rest of the themselves off from the rest of the Universe I just don't know if a deep Universe I just don't know if a deep Universe I just don't know if a deep temporal structure necessarily means temporal structure necessarily means temporal structure necessarily means that you're closed off no I don't either that you're closed off no I don't either that you're closed off no I don't either so that's kind of my fear so I'm not I'm so that's kind of my fear so I'm not I'm so that's kind of my fear so I'm not I'm not sure I'm agreeing with what I say not sure I'm agreeing with what I say not sure I'm agreeing with what I say I'm just saying like this is one sort of I'm just saying like this is one sort of I'm just saying like this is one sort of conclusion and you know like in my most conclusion and you know like in my most conclusion and you know like in my most sort of like it's interesting because I sort of like it's interesting because I sort of like it's interesting because I I don't do psychedelic drugs uh but when I don't do psychedelic drugs uh but when I don't do psychedelic drugs uh but when people describe to me like your thing people describe to me like your thing people describe to me like your thing with the faces and stuff and like I have with the faces and stuff and like I have with the faces and stuff and like I have you know had a lot of deep conversations you know had a lot of deep conversations you know had a lot of deep conversations with friends that have done psychedelic with friends that have done psychedelic with friends that have done psychedelic drugs for intellectual reasons and drugs for intellectual reasons and drugs for intellectual reasons and otherwise um but I'm always like oh it

otherwise um but I'm always like oh it otherwise um but I'm always like oh it sounds like you're just doing sounds like you're just doing sounds like you're just doing theoretical physics like that's what theoretical physics like that's what theoretical physics like that's what brains do on theoretical physics um so I brains do on theoretical physics um so I brains do on theoretical physics um so I I live in these like really abstract I live in these like really abstract I live in these like really abstract spaces uh most of the time but um spaces uh most of the time but um spaces uh most of the time but um there's also this this issue of there's also this this issue of there's also this this issue of Extinction right like Extinction events Extinction right like Extinction events Extinction right like Extinction events are basically pinching off an entire are basically pinching off an entire are basically pinching off an entire like causal structure the one of these like causal structure the one of these like causal structure the one of these like I'm going to call them time Crystal like I'm going to call them time Crystal like I'm going to call them time Crystal I don't like know what but they're like I don't like know what but they're like I don't like know what but they're like these very large objects in time these very large objects in time these very large objects in time pinching off that whole structure from pinching off that whole structure from pinching off that whole structure from the rest of it and so it's like if you the rest of it and so it's like if you the rest of it and so it's like if you imagine that sort of same thing uh in imagine that sort of same thing uh in imagine that sort of same thing uh in the universe I you know I once thought the universe I you know I once thought the universe I you know I once thought that sufficiently Advanced Technologies that sufficiently Advanced Technologies that sufficiently Advanced Technologies would look like black holes that would would look like black holes that would would look like black holes that would be just completely imperceptible to them be just completely imperceptible to them be just completely imperceptible to them yeah um so so there might be lots of yeah um so so there might be lots of yeah um so so there might be lots of aliens out there maybe that's aliens out there maybe that's aliens out there maybe that's explanation for all the singularities explanation for all the singularities explanation for all the singularities they're all pinched off causal they're all pinched off causal they're all pinched off causal structures that virtualized their structures that virtualized their structures that virtualized their reality and kind of broke off from us reality and kind of broke off from us reality and kind of broke off from us black holes in every way so like um black holes in every way so like um black holes in every way so like um Untouchable to us or unlikely be Untouchable to us or unlikely be Untouchable to us or unlikely be detectable by us right with whatever detectable by us right with whatever detectable by us right with whatever sensory mechanisms we have yeah but the sensory mechanisms we have yeah but the sensory mechanisms we have yeah but the other way I think about it is um is other way I think about it is um is other way I think about it is um is there is probably hopefully life out there is probably hopefully life out there is probably hopefully life out there so like I do work on life there so like I do work on life there so like I do work on life detection uh efforts in the solar system detection uh efforts in the solar system detection uh efforts in the solar system and I'm trying to help with the and I'm trying to help with the and I'm trying to help with the habitable worlds Observatory Mission habitable worlds Observatory Mission habitable worlds Observatory Mission planning right now um and working with planning right now um and working with planning right now um and working with like the BIOS signatures team for that like the BIOS signatures team for that like the BIOS signatures team for that like to think about exoplanet bio like to think about exoplanet bio like to think about exoplanet bio signature so like I have some optimism signature so like I have some optimism signature so like I have some optimism that we might find things um but there that we might find things um but there that we might find things um but there are the challenges that we don't know are the challenges that we don't know are the challenges that we don't know the likelihood for life like which is the likelihood for life like which is the likelihood for life like which is what you were talking about so if I get what you were talking about so if I get what you were talking about so if I get to a more grounded discussion what I'm

to a more grounded discussion what I'm to a more grounded discussion what I'm really interested in doing is trying to really interested in doing is trying to really interested in doing is trying to solve the origin of life so we can solve the origin of life so we can solve the origin of life so we can understand How likely life is out there understand How likely life is out there understand How likely life is out there so I don't think that the I think that so I don't think that the I think that so I don't think that the I think that the problem of discovering alien life the problem of discovering alien life the problem of discovering alien life and solving the original life are deeply and solving the original life are deeply and solving the original life are deeply coupled and in fact are one in the same coupled and in fact are one in the same coupled and in fact are one in the same problem um and that the first contact problem um and that the first contact problem um and that the first contact with alien life will actually be an An with alien life will actually be an An with alien life will actually be an An Origin life experiment um but but that Origin life experiment um but but that Origin life experiment um but but that part I'm super interested in and then part I'm super interested in and then part I'm super interested in and then there's this other feature that I think there's this other feature that I think there's this other feature that I think about a lot which is um our own about a lot which is um our own about a lot which is um our own technological phase of development as technological phase of development as technological phase of development as sort of like what is this phase in the sort of like what is this phase in the sort of like what is this phase in the evolution of uh life on a planet if you evolution of uh life on a planet if you evolution of uh life on a planet if you think about a a biosphere emerging on a think about a a biosphere emerging on a think about a a biosphere emerging on a planet and evolving over billions of planet and evolving over billions of planet and evolving over billions of years and evolving into a years and evolving into a years and evolving into a technosphere um when a technosphere can technosphere um when a technosphere can technosphere um when a technosphere can move off planet and basically reproduce move off planet and basically reproduce move off planet and basically reproduce itself on another planet now you have uh itself on another planet now you have uh itself on another planet now you have uh biospheres reproducing biospheres reproducing biospheres reproducing themselves basically they have to go themselves basically they have to go themselves basically they have to go through technology to do that um and so through technology to do that um and so through technology to do that um and so there are ways of thinking about sort of there are ways of thinking about sort of there are ways of thinking about sort of the nature of intelligent life and how the nature of intelligent life and how the nature of intelligent life and how it spreads in that capacity that I'm it spreads in that capacity that I'm it spreads in that capacity that I'm also really excited about and thinking also really excited about and thinking also really excited about and thinking about um and all of those things for me about um and all of those things for me about um and all of those things for me are connected like we have to solve the are connected like we have to solve the are connected like we have to solve the origin of life in order for us to get origin of life in order for us to get origin of life in order for us to get off Planet because we basically have to off Planet because we basically have to off Planet because we basically have to start life on another planet and we also start life on another planet and we also start life on another planet and we also have to solve the original life in order have to solve the original life in order have to solve the original life in order to recognize other alien intelligence to recognize other alien intelligence to recognize other alien intelligence like all of these things are like like all of these things are like like all of these things are like literally the same problem right literally the same problem right literally the same problem right understanding the origin of life here on

understanding the origin of life here on understanding the origin of life here on Earth is a way to understand ourselves Earth is a way to understand ourselves Earth is a way to understand ourselves and to uh understanding ourselves as a a and to uh understanding ourselves as a a and to uh understanding ourselves as a a prerequisite for being able to detect prerequisite for being able to detect prerequisite for being able to detect other other other intelligent civilizations I for one take intelligent civilizations I for one take intelligent civilizations I for one take it for what it's worth it for what it's worth it for what it's worth anasa one of the things I did is zoom anasa one of the things I did is zoom anasa one of the things I did is zoom out like aggressively like like a out like aggressively like like a out like aggressively like like a spaceship and it it would always go spaceship and it it would always go spaceship and it it would always go quickly to the Galaxy and from the quickly to the Galaxy and from the quickly to the Galaxy and from the Galaxy to Galaxy to Galaxy to this uh representation of the universe this uh representation of the universe this uh representation of the universe and at least for me from that and at least for me from that and at least for me from that perspective it seemed like it was full perspective it seemed like it was full perspective it seemed like it was full of alien life uh not just alien life but of alien life uh not just alien life but of alien life uh not just alien life but uh intelligent life I like that and uh intelligent life I like that and uh intelligent life I like that and conscious life so like I don't know how conscious life so like I don't know how conscious life so like I don't know how to convert it into words is more like a to convert it into words is more like a to convert it into words is more like a feeling like you were saying a feeling feeling like you were saying a feeling feeling like you were saying a feeling converted to a visual to uh converted to converted to a visual to uh converted to converted to a visual to uh converted to words so I had a visual with it but words so I had a visual with it but words so I had a visual with it but really was a feeling that it was just really was a feeling that it was just really was a feeling that it was just full of this vibrant energy that I was full of this vibrant energy that I was full of this vibrant energy that I was feeling when I'm looking at the people feeling when I'm looking at the people feeling when I'm looking at the people in my life yeah and full of gratitude in my life yeah and full of gratitude in my life yeah and full of gratitude but that same exact thing is everywhere but that same exact thing is everywhere but that same exact thing is everywhere in the universe right so I totally agree in the universe right so I totally agree in the universe right so I totally agree with this like that visual I really love with this like that visual I really love with this like that visual I really love and I think we live in a universe that and I think we live in a universe that and I think we live in a universe that like generates life and purpose and like like generates life and purpose and like like generates life and purpose and like it's it's part of the structure of just it's it's part of the structure of just it's it's part of the structure of just the world um and so maybe like this sort the world um and so maybe like this sort the world um and so maybe like this sort of lonely view I have is uh I never

of lonely view I have is uh I never of lonely view I have is uh I never thought about it this way till you're thought about it this way till you're thought about it this way till you're describing that I was like I want to describing that I was like I want to describing that I was like I want to live in that universe and I'm like a live in that universe and I'm like a live in that universe and I'm like a very optimistic person and I very optimistic person and I very optimistic person and I love uh I love building visions of love uh I love building visions of love uh I love building visions of reality that are positive but I think reality that are positive but I think reality that are positive but I think for me right now in the intellectual for me right now in the intellectual for me right now in the intellectual process I have to Tunnel through this process I have to Tunnel through this process I have to Tunnel through this this particular way of thinking about this particular way of thinking about this particular way of thinking about the loneliness of being like separated the loneliness of being like separated the loneliness of being like separated in time from everything else which I in time from everything else which I in time from everything else which I think like we also all are because time think like we also all are because time think like we also all are because time is what defines us as individuals so is what defines us as individuals so is what defines us as individuals so part of you is drawn to the trauma of part of you is drawn to the trauma of part of you is drawn to the trauma of being alone deeply in a being alone deeply in a being alone deeply in a physics also part part of what I mean is physics also part part of what I mean is physics also part part of what I mean is like you have to go through ideas you like you have to go through ideas you like you have to go through ideas you don't necessarily agree with to work out don't necessarily agree with to work out don't necessarily agree with to work out what you're trying to understand and I'm what you're trying to understand and I'm what you're trying to understand and I'm trying to be inside the structure so I trying to be inside the structure so I trying to be inside the structure so I can really understand it and I don't can really understand it and I don't can really understand it and I don't think I've been able to like like I'm so think I've been able to like like I'm so think I've been able to like like I'm so deeply embedded in what we are uh deeply embedded in what we are uh deeply embedded in what we are uh intellectually right now that I I don't intellectually right now that I I don't intellectually right now that I I don't have an ability to see these other these have an ability to see these other these have an ability to see these other these other ones that you're describing if other ones that you're describing if other ones that you're describing if they're there well one of the things you they're there well one of the things you they're there well one of the things you kind of described that you already spoke kind of described that you already spoke kind of described that you already spoke to you call it the great perceptual to you call it the great perceptual to you call it the great perceptual filter yeah so there's the the famous filter yeah so there's the the famous filter yeah so there's the the famous great filter which is B great filter which is B great filter which is B basically the idea that there's some basically the idea that there's some basically the idea that there's some really powerful moment in every really powerful moment in every really powerful moment in every intelligent civilization that where they intelligent civilization that where they intelligent civilization that where they destroy destroy destroy themselves yeah that explains why we themselves yeah that explains why we themselves yeah that explains why we have not seen aliens and you're saying have not seen aliens and you're saying have not seen aliens and you're saying that there's something like that in the that there's something like that in the that there's something like that in the temporal history of the creation of temporal history of the creation of temporal history of the creation of complex objects that at a certain point complex objects that at a certain point complex objects that at a certain point they become an Island an island too far

they become an Island an island too far they become an Island an island too far to reach based on the perceptions I not to reach based on the perceptions I not to reach based on the perceptions I not yeah I worry about it yeah but that's yeah I worry about it yeah but that's yeah I worry about it yeah but that's basically meaning there's something basically meaning there's something basically meaning there's something fundamental about the universe where if fundamental about the universe where if fundamental about the universe where if the more complex you become the the the more complex you become the the the more complex you become the the harder it will be to perceive other harder it will be to perceive other harder it will be to perceive other complex I mean just think about us with complex I mean just think about us with complex I mean just think about us with microbial life right like we used to microbial life right like we used to microbial life right like we used to once be cells and for most of human once be cells and for most of human once be cells and for most of human history we didn't even recognize history we didn't even recognize history we didn't even recognize cellular life was there until we built a cellular life was there until we built a cellular life was there until we built a new technology microscopes that allowed new technology microscopes that allowed new technology microscopes that allowed us to see them right so that's kind of us to see them right so that's kind of us to see them right so that's kind of it's kind of weird right like like it's kind of weird right like like it's kind of weird right like like things that and they're close to us things that and they're close to us things that and they're close to us they're close they're everywhere but they're close they're everywhere but they're close they're everywhere but also in the history of the development also in the history of the development also in the history of the development of complex objects they're pretty close of complex objects they're pretty close of complex objects they're pretty close yeah super close super close like yeah I yeah super close super close like yeah I yeah super close super close like yeah I mean all everything on this planet is mean all everything on this planet is mean all everything on this planet is like it's like pretty much the same like it's like pretty much the same like it's like pretty much the same thing like like the space of thing like like the space of thing like like the space of possibilities is so huge it's like we're possibilities is so huge it's like we're possibilities is so huge it's like we're virtually identical so how many virtually identical so how many virtually identical so how many flavors or kinds of Life do you think flavors or kinds of Life do you think flavors or kinds of Life do you think are possible I'm like trying to imagine are possible I'm like trying to imagine are possible I'm like trying to imagine all the little flickering lights in the all the little flickering lights in the all the little flickering lights in the universe like in the way that you were universe like in the way that you were universe like in the way that you were describing that was kind of cool it was describing that was kind of cool it was describing that was kind of cool it was so I mean it was so I mean it was so I mean it was it was exactly that it was like lights it was exactly that it was like lights it was exactly that it was like lights yeah the the way you maybe see a city yeah the the way you maybe see a city yeah the the way you maybe see a city but a city from like up above you see a but a city from like up above you see a but a city from like up above you see a city with the flickering lights but city with the flickering lights but city with the flickering lights but there's a coldness to the city uh there's a coldness to the city uh there's a coldness to the city uh there's some you know that you know there's some you know that you know there's some you know that you know humans are capable of Good and Evil and humans are capable of Good and Evil and humans are capable of Good and Evil and you could see like there's a complex you could see like there's a complex you could see like there's a complex feeling to the city I had no such feeling to the city I had no such feeling to the city I had no such complex feeling about seeing the complex feeling about seeing the complex feeling about seeing the lights of uh all the galaxies whatever

lights of uh all the galaxies whatever lights of uh all the galaxies whatever the billions of galaxies yeah this is the billions of galaxies yeah this is the billions of galaxies yeah this is kind of cool a question a second but I kind of cool a question a second but I kind of cool a question a second but I just maybe like this idea of flickering just maybe like this idea of flickering just maybe like this idea of flickering lights and intelligence is interesting lights and intelligence is interesting lights and intelligence is interesting to me because I you know like we have to me because I you know like we have to me because I you know like we have such a human Centric view of alien such a human Centric view of alien such a human Centric view of alien intelligences that a lot of the work intelligences that a lot of the work intelligences that a lot of the work that I've been doing with my lab is just that I've been doing with my lab is just that I've been doing with my lab is just trying to take inspiration from uh trying to take inspiration from uh trying to take inspiration from uh non-human life on Earth and so I have non-human life on Earth and so I have non-human life on Earth and so I have this really talented undergrad student this really talented undergrad student this really talented undergrad student that's basically building a model of that's basically building a model of that's basically building a model of alien communication based on fireflies alien communication based on fireflies alien communication based on fireflies so one of my colleagues or at pel is so one of my colleagues or at pel is so one of my colleagues or at pel is she's totally brilliant but she she goes she's totally brilliant but she she goes she's totally brilliant but she she goes out with like GoPro cameras and like you out with like GoPro cameras and like you out with like GoPro cameras and like you know films in high resolution all these know films in high resolution all these know films in high resolution all these Firefly flickering and she has like this Firefly flickering and she has like this Firefly flickering and she has like this theory about how their signaling evolve theory about how their signaling evolve theory about how their signaling evolve to like maximally to like maximally to like maximally differentiate um the flickering pattern differentiate um the flickering pattern differentiate um the flickering pattern so like she has a theory basically that so like she has a theory basically that so like she has a theory basically that predicts you know like this species predicts you know like this species predicts you know like this species should flash like this if this one's should flash like this if this one's should flash like this if this one's flashing like this this other one's flashing like this this other one's flashing like this this other one's going to do it at a slower rate so that going to do it at a slower rate so that going to do it at a slower rate so that they you know like they can distinguish they you know like they can distinguish they you know like they can distinguish each other living in the same each other living in the same each other living in the same environment and so this undergrad is environment and so this undergrad is environment and so this undergrad is building this model where you have like building this model where you have like building this model where you have like a pulsar background of all these like a pulsar background of all these like a pulsar background of all these like giant flashing sources in the universe giant flashing sources in the universe giant flashing sources in the universe and an alien intelligence you know wants and an alien intelligence you know wants and an alien intelligence you know wants to Signal it's there so it's flashing to Signal it's there so it's flashing to Signal it's there so it's flashing like a firly uh and I just like I like like a firly uh and I just like I like like a firly uh and I just like I like the idea of thinking about non-human the idea of thinking about non-human the idea of thinking about non-human aliens so that was really fun the aliens so that was really fun the aliens so that was really fun the mechanism of the flashing unfortunately mechanism of the flashing unfortunately mechanism of the flashing unfortunately is like the diversity of that is very is like the diversity of that is very is like the diversity of that is very high and we might not be able to see it high and we might not be able to see it high and we might not be able to see it that's what yeah well I think there's that's what yeah well I think there's that's what yeah well I think there's some ways we might be able to some ways we might be able to some ways we might be able to differentiate that signal I'm still differentiate that signal I'm still differentiate that signal I'm still thinking about this part of it so one is thinking about this part of it so one is thinking about this part of it so one is like like if you have pulsars and they

like like if you have pulsars and they like like if you have pulsars and they all have a certain Spectrum to their all have a certain Spectrum to their all have a certain Spectrum to their pulsing patterns and you have this one pulsing patterns and you have this one pulsing patterns and you have this one signal that's in there that's basically signal that's in there that's basically signal that's in there that's basically tried to maximally differentiate itself tried to maximally differentiate itself tried to maximally differentiate itself from all the other sources in the from all the other sources in the from all the other sources in the universe it might stick out in the universe it might stick out in the universe it might stick out in the distribution like there might be ways of distribution like there might be ways of distribution like there might be ways of actually being able to tell if it's it's actually being able to tell if it's it's actually being able to tell if it's it's an anomalous Pulsar basically um but I an anomalous Pulsar basically um but I an anomalous Pulsar basically um but I don't know if that would really work or don't know if that would really work or don't know if that would really work or not so still thinking about it you not so still thinking about it you not so still thinking about it you tweeted if one wants to understand how tweeted if one wants to understand how tweeted if one wants to understand how truly combinatorially and truly combinatorially and truly combinatorially and compositionally complex our universe is compositionally complex our universe is compositionally complex our universe is they only need step into the world of they only need step into the world of they only need step into the world of fashion yeah it's B unkers how big the fashion yeah it's B unkers how big the fashion yeah it's B unkers how big the construct constructible space of human construct constructible space of human construct constructible space of human Aesthetics is uh can you explain can can Aesthetics is uh can you explain can can Aesthetics is uh can you explain can can we explore the space of human we explore the space of human we explore the space of human Aesthetics yeah I don't know um I've Aesthetics yeah I don't know um I've Aesthetics yeah I don't know um I've been kind of obsessed with the uh I been kind of obsessed with the uh I been kind of obsessed with the uh I never know how to pronounce it chappelli never know how to pronounce it chappelli never know how to pronounce it chappelli like you know like like they they have like you know like like they they have like you know like like they they have ears and things like it's such like a ears and things like it's such like a ears and things like it's such like a like a weird grotesque aesthetic but like a weird grotesque aesthetic but like a weird grotesque aesthetic but like it's it's totally bizarre um but like it's it's totally bizarre um but like it's it's totally bizarre um but what I meant like I like I have a what I meant like I like I have a what I meant like I like I have a visceral experience when I walk into my visceral experience when I walk into my visceral experience when I walk into my closet I have like a lot of how big is closet I have like a lot of how big is closet I have like a lot of how big is your closet it's pretty big uh it's like your closet it's pretty big uh it's like your closet it's pretty big uh it's like I do assembly Theory every morning when I do assembly Theory every morning when I do assembly Theory every morning when I walk in my closet because I have I I walk in my closet because I have I I walk in my closet because I have I like I really like a very large Comon like I really like a very large Comon like I really like a very large Comon tutorial diverse palette but I never tutorial diverse palette but I never tutorial diverse palette but I never know what I'm going to build in the know what I'm going to build in the know what I'm going to build in the morning do you get rid of stuff morning do you get rid of stuff morning do you get rid of stuff sometimes or do you have trouble getting sometimes or do you have trouble getting sometimes or do you have trouble getting rid of St like I have trouble getting rid of St like I have trouble getting rid of St like I have trouble getting rid of some stuff it depends on what it rid of some stuff it depends on what it rid of some stuff it depends on what it is if it's very if it's vintage it's is if it's very if it's vintage it's is if it's very if it's vintage it's hard to get rid of because it's kind of hard to get rid of because it's kind of hard to get rid of because it's kind of hard to replace um it depends on the hard to replace um it depends on the hard to replace um it depends on the piece yeah so you have your closet is is

piece yeah so you have your closet is is piece yeah so you have your closet is is the one of those temporal time crystals the one of those temporal time crystals the one of those temporal time crystals that yeah they just you get to visualize that yeah they just you get to visualize that yeah they just you get to visualize the entire history it's a physical the entire history it's a physical the entire history it's a physical manifestation of my personality right uh manifestation of my personality right uh manifestation of my personality right uh so so why is that a good visualization so so why is that a good visualization so so why is that a good visualization of the the the of the the the of the the the combinatorial and uh compositionally combinatorial and uh compositionally combinatorial and uh compositionally complex I think it's an interesting complex I think it's an interesting complex I think it's an interesting feature of our species that we allow we feature of our species that we allow we feature of our species that we allow we get to express ourselves through what we get to express ourselves through what we get to express ourselves through what we wear right like if you think about all wear right like if you think about all wear right like if you think about all those animals in the jungle you saw like those animals in the jungle you saw like those animals in the jungle you saw like they're born looking the way they look they're born looking the way they look they're born looking the way they look and then they're stuck with it for life and then they're stuck with it for life and then they're stuck with it for life that's true I mean it is one of the that's true I mean it is one of the that's true I mean it is one of the loudest clearest most consistent ways we loudest clearest most consistent ways we loudest clearest most consistent ways we signal to each other the clothing we signal to each other the clothing we signal to each other the clothing we wear yeah and it's highly Dynamic I mean wear yeah and it's highly Dynamic I mean wear yeah and it's highly Dynamic I mean you can be dynamic if you want to very you can be dynamic if you want to very you can be dynamic if you want to very few people are are it's it there's a few people are are it's it there's a few people are are it's it there's a certain bravery but it's actually more certain bravery but it's actually more certain bravery but it's actually more about confidence um willing to play with about confidence um willing to play with about confidence um willing to play with style and like and play with Aesthetics style and like and play with Aesthetics style and like and play with Aesthetics um and I think it's interesting when you um and I think it's interesting when you um and I think it's interesting when you start experimenting with it how it start experimenting with it how it start experimenting with it how it changes the fluidity of the social changes the fluidity of the social changes the fluidity of the social spaces and the way that you interact spaces and the way that you interact spaces and the way that you interact with them but there's also commitment with them but there's also commitment with them but there's also commitment like you have to wear that outfit all I like you have to wear that outfit all I like you have to wear that outfit all I know I know a big commitment do you feel know I know a big commitment do you feel know I know a big commitment do you feel like that every like that every like that every morning I were that's why feel like this morning I were that's why feel like this morning I were that's why feel like this is a life commitment so all I have is is a life commitment so all I have is is a life commitment so all I have is suits and the black shirt and jeans suits and the black shirt and jeans suits and the black shirt and jeans those are the two outfits yeah well see those are the two outfits yeah well see those are the two outfits yeah well see this is the thing though right it this is the thing though right it this is the thing though right it simplifies your thought process in the simplifies your thought process in the simplifies your thought process in the morning so like I have other ways I do morning so like I have other ways I do morning so like I have other ways I do that I park in the same exact parking that I park in the same exact parking that I park in the same exact parking spot when I I go to work on the fourth

spot when I I go to work on the fourth spot when I I go to work on the fourth floor of a parking garage because no one floor of a parking garage because no one floor of a parking garage because no one ever parks on the fourth floor so I can ever parks on the fourth floor so I can ever parks on the fourth floor so I can I don't have to remember where I park my I don't have to remember where I park my I don't have to remember where I park my car um but I really like uh Aesthetics car um but I really like uh Aesthetics car um but I really like uh Aesthetics and playing with them so I'm willing to and playing with them so I'm willing to and playing with them so I'm willing to spend part of my cognitive energy every spend part of my cognitive energy every spend part of my cognitive energy every morning trying to figure out what I want morning trying to figure out what I want morning trying to figure out what I want to be that day did you deliberately to be that day did you deliberately to be that day did you deliberately think about the the outfit you're think about the the outfit you're think about the the outfit you're wearing today yep was there backup wearing today yep was there backup wearing today yep was there backup options were you going back and forth options were you going back and forth options were you going back and forth between three or four but I really like between three or four but I really like between three or four but I really like were they drastically different yes okay were they drastically different yes okay were they drastically different yes okay it's okay even this one could have been it's okay even this one could have been it's okay even this one could have been really different because like you know really different because like you know really different because like you know it's not just the the sort of jacket and it's not just the the sort of jacket and it's not just the the sort of jacket and the shoes and like and the hairstyle the shoes and like and the hairstyle the shoes and like and the hairstyle it's like the jewelry and the it's like the jewelry and the it's like the jewelry and the accessories so like any outfit is is a accessories so like any outfit is is a accessories so like any outfit is is a lot of small decisions well I think your lot of small decisions well I think your lot of small decisions well I think your current off is like a lot of shades of current off is like a lot of shades of current off is like a lot of shades of yellow there's like a theme yeah it's yellow there's like a theme yeah it's yellow there's like a theme yeah it's nice it's it's really I'm grateful that nice it's it's really I'm grateful that nice it's it's really I'm grateful that you did that it's like it's it's it's you did that it's like it's it's it's you did that it's like it's it's it's own art form yeah yellow's my daughter's own art form yeah yellow's my daughter's own art form yeah yellow's my daughter's favorite color and I never really favorite color and I never really favorite color and I never really thought about yellow y much but she's thought about yellow y much but she's thought about yellow y much but she's been obsessed with yellow she's seven been obsessed with yellow she's seven been obsessed with yellow she's seven now uh and I don't know I just really now uh and I don't know I just really now uh and I don't know I just really love it I guess you can pick a color and love it I guess you can pick a color and love it I guess you can pick a color and just make that the constraint and it just make that the constraint and it just make that the constraint and it just go with it understand I'm playing just go with it understand I'm playing just go with it understand I'm playing with yellow a lot lately like this is with yellow a lot lately like this is with yellow a lot lately like this is not even the most yellow cuz I have not even the most yellow cuz I have not even the most yellow cuz I have black pants on but I have I've worn black pants on but I have I've worn black pants on but I have I've worn outfits that have probably five shades outfits that have probably five shades outfits that have probably five shades of yellow in them of yellow in them of yellow in them wow what uh what do you think beauty is wow what uh what do you think beauty is wow what uh what do you think beauty is we seem to so underlying this idea of we seem to so underlying this idea of we seem to so underlying this idea of playing with Aesthetics is we find playing with Aesthetics is we find playing with Aesthetics is we find certain things beautiful yeah what is it

certain things beautiful yeah what is it certain things beautiful yeah what is it uh that humans find beautiful and why do uh that humans find beautiful and why do uh that humans find beautiful and why do we need to find things we need to find things we need to find things beautiful yeah you know it's beautiful yeah you know it's beautiful yeah you know it's interesting it's not I'm not I I mean I interesting it's not I'm not I I mean I interesting it's not I'm not I I mean I am attracted to to to style and am attracted to to to style and am attracted to to to style and Aesthetics because I think they're Aesthetics because I think they're Aesthetics because I think they're beautiful but it's much more because I beautiful but it's much more because I beautiful but it's much more because I think it's fun to play with um and so um think it's fun to play with um and so um think it's fun to play with um and so um so I will get to the beauty thing but I so I will get to the beauty thing but I so I will get to the beauty thing but I like I I guess I want to just explain a like I I guess I want to just explain a like I I guess I want to just explain a little bit about my motivation in the little bit about my motivation in the little bit about my motivation in the space cuz it's really an intellectual space cuz it's really an intellectual space cuz it's really an intellectual thing for me um and you know Stuart thing for me um and you know Stuart thing for me um and you know Stuart brand has this great brand has this great brand has this great infographic uh about the layers of like infographic uh about the layers of like infographic uh about the layers of like human society um and I think it starts human society um and I think it starts human society um and I think it starts with like the Natural Sciences and like with like the Natural Sciences and like with like the Natural Sciences and like physics at the bottom and it goes physics at the bottom and it goes physics at the bottom and it goes through all these layers and it's like through all these layers and it's like through all these layers and it's like economics and then like fashion is at economics and then like fashion is at economics and then like fashion is at the top it's like the fastest moving the top it's like the fastest moving the top it's like the fastest moving part of human culture and I think I part of human culture and I think I part of human culture and I think I really like that because it's so Dynamic really like that because it's so Dynamic really like that because it's so Dynamic and so short and it's temporal longevity and so short and it's temporal longevity and so short and it's temporal longevity uh contrasted with like studying the uh contrasted with like studying the uh contrasted with like studying the laws of physics which are like you know laws of physics which are like you know laws of physics which are like you know like deep structure reality that I feel like deep structure reality that I feel like deep structure reality that I feel like I like bridging those scales tells like I like bridging those scales tells like I like bridging those scales tells me much more about the structure of the me much more about the structure of the me much more about the structure of the world that I live in that said there's world that I live in that said there's world that I live in that said there's certain kinds of Fashions like a dude in certain kinds of Fashions like a dude in certain kinds of Fashions like a dude in a black suit a black tie seems to um be a black suit a black tie seems to um be a black suit a black tie seems to um be less Dynamic yeah it seems to persist less Dynamic yeah it seems to persist less Dynamic yeah it seems to persist through time are you embodying this yeah through time are you embodying this yeah through time are you embodying this yeah I think so I I I I think so I I I I think so I I I think I think it's just i' like to see think I think it's just i' like to see think I think it's just i' like to see you wear yellow leg I don't I wouldn't you wear yellow leg I don't I wouldn't you wear yellow leg I don't I wouldn't even know what to do with myself I would even know what to do with myself I would even know what to do with myself I would freak out I wouldn't know how to act

freak out I wouldn't know how to act freak out I wouldn't know how to act know how to be you yeah I know this is know how to be you yeah I know this is know how to be you yeah I know this is amazing though isn't it amazing like you amazing though isn't it amazing like you amazing though isn't it amazing like you have the choice to do it but but one of have the choice to do it but but one of have the choice to do it but but one of my favorite um just on the question of my favorite um just on the question of my favorite um just on the question of beauty one of my favorite uh fashion beauty one of my favorite uh fashion beauty one of my favorite uh fashion designers of all time is Alexander designers of all time is Alexander designers of all time is Alexander McQueen um and he he was really McQueen um and he he was really McQueen um and he he was really phenomenal but like his early and phenomenal but like his early and phenomenal but like his early and actually I kind of I kind of used like actually I kind of I kind of used like actually I kind of I kind of used like what happened to him in the fashion what happened to him in the fashion what happened to him in the fashion industry is a coping mechanism with our industry is a coping mechanism with our industry is a coping mechanism with our paper when uh like the nature paper in paper when uh like the nature paper in paper when uh like the nature paper in in the the fall when everyone was saying in the the fall when everyone was saying in the the fall when everyone was saying it was controversial and how terrible it was controversial and how terrible it was controversial and how terrible that like you know like but that like you know like but that like you know like but controversial is good right but like controversial is good right but like controversial is good right but like when Alexander McQueen you know first when Alexander McQueen you know first when Alexander McQueen you know first came out with his fashion lines he was came out with his fashion lines he was came out with his fashion lines he was mixing horror and Beauty um and people mixing horror and Beauty um and people mixing horror and Beauty um and people were horrified it was so controversial were horrified it was so controversial were horrified it was so controversial like they like it was macabra he had like they like it was macabra he had like they like it was macabra he had like you know like look like there were like you know like look like there were like you know like look like there were Blood on the models and like um that Blood on the models and like um that Blood on the models and like um that beautiful just looking at some pictures beautiful just looking at some pictures beautiful just looking at some pictures here yeah no I mean his stuff is amazing here yeah no I mean his stuff is amazing here yeah no I mean his stuff is amazing um his first uh like Runway line I think um his first uh like Runway line I think um his first uh like Runway line I think was called was called was called nism I don't know I don't know if you nism I don't know I don't know if you nism I don't know I don't know if you could find it um you know I mean he was could find it um you know I mean he was could find it um you know I mean he was really dramatic I he he carried a lot of really dramatic I he he carried a lot of really dramatic I he he carried a lot of trauma with him uh there you go that's trauma with him uh there you go that's trauma with him uh there you go that's yeah uh yeah wow um but he changed the yeah uh yeah wow um but he changed the yeah uh yeah wow um but he changed the fashion industry his stuff became very fashion industry his stuff became very fashion industry his stuff became very popular that's that's a good outfit to popular that's that's a good outfit to popular that's that's a good outfit to show up to party right right but this show up to party right right but this show up to party right right but this gets to the question like is is that gets to the question like is is that gets to the question like is is that horrific or is it beautiful um and I horrific or is it beautiful um and I horrific or is it beautiful um and I think you know he he had a traumatic he think you know he he had a traumatic he think you know he he had a traumatic he he ended up um uh committing suicide and he ended up um uh committing suicide and he ended up um uh committing suicide and actually he he left his death note on actually he he left his death note on actually he he left his death note on The Descent of Man um so he was he was a

The Descent of Man um so he was he was a The Descent of Man um so he was he was a really deep uh person so I mean great really deep uh person so I mean great really deep uh person so I mean great fashion certainly has that kind of depth fashion certainly has that kind of depth fashion certainly has that kind of depth to it yeah it sure does uh so I think to it yeah it sure does uh so I think to it yeah it sure does uh so I think it's the intellectual Pursuit right like it's the intellectual Pursuit right like it's the intellectual Pursuit right like it's not um so this is like very highly it's not um so this is like very highly it's not um so this is like very highly intellectual and I think it's a lot like intellectual and I think it's a lot like intellectual and I think it's a lot like how I play with language is the same way how I play with language is the same way how I play with language is the same way that I play with fashion or the same way that I play with fashion or the same way that I play with fashion or the same way that I play with ideas in theoretical that I play with ideas in theoretical that I play with ideas in theoretical physics like there's always this space physics like there's always this space physics like there's always this space that you can just push things just that you can just push things just that you can just push things just enough so they're like they look like enough so they're like they look like enough so they're like they look like something someone thinks is familiar but something someone thinks is familiar but something someone thinks is familiar but they're not familiar um and yeah and I they're not familiar um and yeah and I they're not familiar um and yeah and I think that's really cool it seems like think that's really cool it seems like think that's really cool it seems like beauty doesn't have much function right beauty doesn't have much function right beauty doesn't have much function right but but it seems to also but but it seems to also but but it seems to also have a lot of influence on the way we it have a lot of influence on the way we it have a lot of influence on the way we it has tons of what do you mean it doesn't has tons of what do you mean it doesn't has tons of what do you mean it doesn't have function I guess sexual selection have function I guess sexual selection have function I guess sexual selection incorporates Beauty somehow but why incorporates Beauty somehow but why incorporates Beauty somehow but why because beauty is a sign of health or because beauty is a sign of health or because beauty is a sign of health or something I don't even oh evolutionarily something I don't even oh evolutionarily something I don't even oh evolutionarily maybe but then Beauty becomes a signal maybe but then Beauty becomes a signal maybe but then Beauty becomes a signal of other things right so it's really not of other things right so it's really not of other things right so it's really not like and then Beauty becomes an Adaptive like and then Beauty becomes an Adaptive like and then Beauty becomes an Adaptive trait so it can change with different trait so it can change with different trait so it can change with different spe like you know maybe some PE some spe like you know maybe some PE some spe like you know maybe some PE some species would think well you thought the species would think well you thought the species would think well you thought the Frog having babies come out of its back Frog having babies come out of its back Frog having babies come out of its back was beautiful and I thought it was was beautiful and I thought it was was beautiful and I thought it was grotesque like there's not a universal grotesque like there's not a universal grotesque like there's not a universal definition of what's beautiful it is definition of what's beautiful it is definition of what's beautiful it is something that is dependent on your something that is dependent on your something that is dependent on your history and how you interact with the history and how you interact with the history and how you interact with the world and I guess what I like about world and I guess what I like about world and I guess what I like about beauty like any other concept is when beauty like any other concept is when beauty like any other concept is when you turn it on its head so um you know you turn it on its head so um you know you turn it on its head so um you know maybe the traditional uh conception of

maybe the traditional uh conception of maybe the traditional uh conception of you know why women wear makeup and they you know why women wear makeup and they you know why women wear makeup and they dress certain ways is because they want dress certain ways is because they want dress certain ways is because they want to look beautiful and you know pleasing to look beautiful and you know pleasing to look beautiful and you know pleasing to people and I just like to do it cuz to people and I just like to do it cuz to people and I just like to do it cuz it's a confidence thing it's about it's a confidence thing it's about it's a confidence thing it's about embodying uh the person that I want to embodying uh the person that I want to embodying uh the person that I want to be and about owning that person and then be and about owning that person and then be and about owning that person and then that the way that people interact with that the way that people interact with that the way that people interact with that person is very different than if I that person is very different than if I that person is very different than if I didn't have the like if I wasn't using didn't have the like if I wasn't using didn't have the like if I wasn't using that attribute as part of and obviously that attribute as part of and obviously that attribute as part of and obviously that that's influenced by the society I that that's influenced by the society I that that's influenced by the society I live and like what's aesthetically live and like what's aesthetically live and like what's aesthetically pleasing things but it's interesting to pleasing things but it's interesting to pleasing things but it's interesting to be able to turn that around and not have be able to turn that around and not have be able to turn that around and not have it necessarily be about the Aesthetics it necessarily be about the Aesthetics it necessarily be about the Aesthetics but about the power dynamics that the but about the power dynamics that the but about the power dynamics that the Aesthetics create but you're saying Aesthetics create but you're saying Aesthetics create but you're saying there's some function to Beauty in that there's some function to Beauty in that there's some function to Beauty in that way in the way you're describing in the way in the way you're describing in the way in the way you're describing in the dynamic it creates in the social dynamic it creates in the social dynamic it creates in the social interaction well well the point is interaction well well the point is interaction well well the point is you're saying it's an Adaptive trait for you're saying it's an Adaptive trait for you're saying it's an Adaptive trait for like sexual selection or something and like sexual selection or something and like sexual selection or something and I'm saying that the adaptation that I'm saying that the adaptation that I'm saying that the adaptation that beauty confers is far richer than that beauty confers is far richer than that beauty confers is far richer than that and some of the adaptation is about and some of the adaptation is about and some of the adaptation is about social hierarchy and social Mobility um social hierarchy and social Mobility um social hierarchy and social Mobility um and just plain social dynamics like why and just plain social dynamics like why and just plain social dynamics like why do some people dress goth it's because do some people dress goth it's because do some people dress goth it's because they identify with a community and a they identify with a community and a they identify with a community and a culture associated with that and they culture associated with that and they culture associated with that and they get you know and that's a beautiful get you know and that's a beautiful get you know and that's a beautiful aesthetic uh it's it's a different aesthetic uh it's it's a different aesthetic uh it's it's a different aesthetic some people don't like it um aesthetic some people don't like it um aesthetic some people don't like it um so it has the same richness as does so it has the same richness as does so it has the same richness as does language yes it's the same kind of yes language yes it's the same kind of yes language yes it's the same kind of yes and I think I think too few people think and I think I think too few people think and I think I think too few people think about the way way that they the about the way way that they the about the way way that they the Aesthetics they build for themselves in Aesthetics they build for themselves in Aesthetics they build for themselves in the morning and how they carry it in the the morning and how they carry it in the the morning and how they carry it in the world and and the way that other people

world and and the way that other people world and and the way that other people interact with that because they put interact with that because they put interact with that because they put clothes on and they don't think about clothes on and they don't think about clothes on and they don't think about clothes as carrying clothes as carrying clothes as carrying function let's jump from beauty to function let's jump from beauty to function let's jump from beauty to language there's so many ways to explore language there's so many ways to explore language there's so many ways to explore the topic of language you called that the topic of language you called that the topic of language you called that you said that language you said that language you said that language is parts of language or language in is parts of language or language in is parts of language or language in itself and the mechanism of language is itself and the mechanism of language is itself and the mechanism of language is is is a kind of living life form um is is a kind of living life form um is is a kind of living life form um you've tweeted a lot about this in all you've tweeted a lot about this in all you've tweeted a lot about this in all kinds of poetic ways let's talk about kinds of poetic ways let's talk about kinds of poetic ways let's talk about the computation aspect of it you you you the computation aspect of it you you you the computation aspect of it you you you tweeted the world is not a computation tweeted the world is not a computation tweeted the world is not a computation but computation is our best current but computation is our best current but computation is our best current language for understanding the world it language for understanding the world it language for understanding the world it is important we recognize this so we can is important we recognize this so we can is important we recognize this so we can start to see the structure of our future start to see the structure of our future start to see the structure of our future languages that will allow us to see languages that will allow us to see languages that will allow us to see deeper than computation allows us so deeper than computation allows us so deeper than computation allows us so what's the use of language in helping us what's the use of language in helping us what's the use of language in helping us understand and make sense of the world I understand and make sense of the world I understand and make sense of the world I think one thing that I feel like I I think one thing that I feel like I I think one thing that I feel like I I notice much much more viscerally than I notice much much more viscerally than I notice much much more viscerally than I feel like I hear other people feel like I hear other people feel like I hear other people describe is that the representations in describe is that the representations in describe is that the representations in our mind and the way that we use our mind and the way that we use our mind and the way that we use language are not the things language are not the things language are not the things like actually I mean this is an like actually I mean this is an like actually I mean this is an important Point going back to to what important Point going back to to what important Point going back to to what girdle did but also this idea of signs girdle did but also this idea of signs girdle did but also this idea of signs and symbols and and all kinds of ways of and symbols and and all kinds of ways of and symbols and and all kinds of ways of separating them there's like the word separating them there's like the word separating them there's like the word right and then there's like what the right and then there's like what the right and then there's like what the word means about the world and we often word means about the world and we often word means about the world and we often confuse those things and what I I feel confuse those things and what I I feel confuse those things and what I I feel very viscerally I almost sometimes think very viscerally I almost sometimes think very viscerally I almost sometimes think I have some kind of like synesthesia for

I have some kind of like synesthesia for I have some kind of like synesthesia for language or something and I just like language or something and I just like language or something and I just like don't interact with it like the way that don't interact with it like the way that don't interact with it like the way that other people do um but for me words are other people do um but for me words are other people do um but for me words are objects and the objects are not the objects and the objects are not the objects and the objects are not the things that they describe they have like things that they describe they have like things that they describe they have like a different ontology to them uh like a different ontology to them uh like a different ontology to them uh like they're physical things um and they they're physical things um and they they're physical things um and they carry causation and they can create carry causation and they can create carry causation and they can create meaning um but they're meaning um but they're meaning um but they're not they're not they're not what we not they're not they're not what we not they're not they're not what we think they are and and also like the think they are and and also like the think they are and and also like the internal representations in our mind internal representations in our mind internal representations in our mind like the things I'm seeing about this like the things I'm seeing about this like the things I'm seeing about this room are probably you know like they room are probably you know like they room are probably you know like they small projection of the things that are small projection of the things that are small projection of the things that are actually in this room and I think we actually in this room and I think we actually in this room and I think we have such a difficult time moving past have such a difficult time moving past have such a difficult time moving past the way that we build representations in the way that we build representations in the way that we build representations in the mind and the way that we structure the mind and the way that we structure the mind and the way that we structure our language to realize that those are our language to realize that those are our language to realize that those are approximations to what's out there and approximations to what's out there and approximations to what's out there and they're fluid and we can play around they're fluid and we can play around they're fluid and we can play around with them and we can see deeper with them and we can see deeper with them and we can see deeper structure underneath them that um I structure underneath them that um I structure underneath them that um I think like we're missing a lot yeah but think like we're missing a lot yeah but think like we're missing a lot yeah but also the life of the mind is also the life of the mind is also the life of the mind is in some ways richer than the physical in some ways richer than the physical in some ways richer than the physical reality what's going on in your reality what's going on in your reality what's going on in your mind might be a projection actually here mind might be a projection actually here mind might be a projection actually here but there's all also all kinds of other but there's all also all kinds of other but there's all also all kinds of other stuff going on there yeah for sure I stuff going on there yeah for sure I stuff going on there yeah for sure I love this um essay by Pan about like love this um essay by Pan about like love this um essay by Pan about like mathematical creativity where he talks mathematical creativity where he talks mathematical creativity where he talks about this sort of like frothing of all about this sort of like frothing of all about this sort of like frothing of all these things and then like somehow you these things and then like somehow you these things and then like somehow you build theorems on top of it and they build theorems on top of it and they build theorems on top of it and they become kind of concrete but like and I become kind of concrete but like and I become kind of concrete but like and I also think about this with language it's also think about this with language it's also think about this with language it's like there's a lot of stuff happening in like there's a lot of stuff happening in like there's a lot of stuff happening in your mind but you have to compress it your mind but you have to compress it your mind but you have to compress it and this few sets of words to try to and this few sets of words to try to and this few sets of words to try to convey it to someone so it's it's a convey it to someone so it's it's a convey it to someone so it's it's a compactification of the space um and compactification of the space um and compactification of the space um and it's not a very efficient one uh and I

it's not a very efficient one uh and I it's not a very efficient one uh and I think just recognizing that there's a think just recognizing that there's a think just recognizing that there's a lot that's happening behind language is lot that's happening behind language is lot that's happening behind language is really important I think this is this is really important I think this is this is really important I think this is this is one of the the great things about the one of the the great things about the one of the the great things about the existential trauma of large language existential trauma of large language existential trauma of large language models I think is the recognition that models I think is the recognition that models I think is the recognition that language is not the only thing language is not the only thing language is not the only thing required uh like there's something required uh like there's something required uh like there's something underneath it uh not underneath it uh not underneath it uh not everybody can you just speak everybody can you just speak everybody can you just speak to the feeling you have when you think to the feeling you have when you think to the feeling you have when you think about words so is there like what's the about words so is there like what's the about words so is there like what's the magic of words to you is it like do you magic of words to you is it like do you magic of words to you is it like do you feel that it almost sometimes feels like feel that it almost sometimes feels like feel that it almost sometimes feels like you're playing with it like yeah I was you're playing with it like yeah I was you're playing with it like yeah I was just going to say it's like a playground just going to say it's like a playground just going to say it's like a playground but but you're almost like uh I think but but you're almost like uh I think but but you're almost like uh I think one of the things you enjoy maybe I'm one of the things you enjoy maybe I'm one of the things you enjoy maybe I'm projecting is deviating like using words projecting is deviating like using words projecting is deviating like using words in ways that not everyone uses them like in ways that not everyone uses them like in ways that not everyone uses them like slightly slightly slightly sort of deviating from the norm a little sort of deviating from the norm a little sort of deviating from the norm a little bit I love doing that in everything I do bit I love doing that in everything I do bit I love doing that in everything I do but especially with language but not so but especially with language but not so but especially with language but not so far that it doesn't make sense exactly far that it doesn't make sense exactly far that it doesn't make sense exactly so you're always like Tethered to so you're always like Tethered to so you're always like Tethered to reality to the norm but like are playing reality to the norm but like are playing reality to the norm but like are playing with it like basically fucking with with it like basically fucking with with it like basically fucking with people's minds a little bit I mean like people's minds a little bit I mean like people's minds a little bit I mean like you know and in so doing creating um a you know and in so doing creating um a you know and in so doing creating um a different perspective on the thing different perspective on the thing different perspective on the thing that's been previous exploring in a that's been previous exploring in a that's been previous exploring in a different way yeah it's literally my different way yeah it's literally my different way yeah it's literally my favorite thing to do yeah like use words favorite thing to do yeah like use words favorite thing to do yeah like use words as one way to make people think yeah so as one way to make people think yeah so as one way to make people think yeah so I you know a lot of my sort of like what I you know a lot of my sort of like what I you know a lot of my sort of like what happens in my mind when I'm thinking

happens in my mind when I'm thinking happens in my mind when I'm thinking about ideas is I've been presented with about ideas is I've been presented with about ideas is I've been presented with this information about how people think this information about how people think this information about how people think about things and I try to go around to about things and I try to go around to about things and I try to go around to different communities and hear the ways different communities and hear the ways different communities and hear the ways that different whether it's like you that different whether it's like you that different whether it's like you know hanging out with a bunch of artists know hanging out with a bunch of artists know hanging out with a bunch of artists or philosophers or scientists thinking or philosophers or scientists thinking or philosophers or scientists thinking about things like they all think about about things like they all think about about things like they all think about it different ways and then I just try to it different ways and then I just try to it different ways and then I just try to figure out figure out figure out like how do you take the structure of like how do you take the structure of like how do you take the structure of the way that we're talking about it and the way that we're talking about it and the way that we're talking about it and turn it turn it turn it slightly uh so you have all the same slightly uh so you have all the same slightly uh so you have all the same pieces that everybody sees are there but pieces that everybody sees are there but pieces that everybody sees are there but the description that you've come up with the description that you've come up with the description that you've come up with seems totally different so they can seems totally different so they can seems totally different so they can understand that there's like they understand that there's like they understand that there's like they understand the pattern you're describing understand the pattern you're describing understand the pattern you're describing but they never heard the structure but they never heard the structure but they never heard the structure underlying it described the way that you underlying it described the way that you underlying it described the way that you describe it is there words or terms you describe it is there words or terms you describe it is there words or terms you remember remember remember that uh Disturbed people the most maybe that uh Disturbed people the most maybe that uh Disturbed people the most maybe the positive sense of disturbed his the positive sense of disturbed his the positive sense of disturbed his assembly Theory I suppose is one yeah I assembly Theory I suppose is one yeah I assembly Theory I suppose is one yeah I mean the the first couple sentences of mean the the first couple sentences of mean the the first couple sentences of that paper Disturbed people a lot and I that paper Disturbed people a lot and I that paper Disturbed people a lot and I think they were really carefully think they were really carefully think they were really carefully constructed in exactly this kind of way constructed in exactly this kind of way constructed in exactly this kind of way what was that let me look it up oh it what was that let me look it up oh it what was that let me look it up oh it was really fun um but I think uh it's was really fun um but I think uh it's was really fun um but I think uh it's interesting cuz I do uh you know interesting cuz I do uh you know interesting cuz I do uh you know sometimes I'm very upfront about it I sometimes I'm very upfront about it I sometimes I'm very upfront about it I say I'm going to use the same word in say I'm going to use the same word in say I'm going to use the same word in probably six different ways probably six different ways probably six different ways uh in a lecture um and I will you're uh in a lecture um and I will you're uh in a lecture um and I will you're right scientists have grappled with right scientists have grappled with right scientists have grappled with reconciling biological evolution with reconciling biological evolution with reconciling biological evolution with immutable laws of the universe defined immutable laws of the universe defined immutable laws of the universe defined by physics these laws underpin life's by physics these laws underpin life's by physics these laws underpin life's origin Evolution and this with Lee when

origin Evolution and this with Lee when origin Evolution and this with Lee when he was here too the development of human he was here too the development of human he was here too the development of human culture well he was I think your love culture well he was I think your love culture well he was I think your love for Words runs deeper than Le yeah for for Words runs deeper than Le yeah for for Words runs deeper than Le yeah for sure um I mean this is part of the the sure um I mean this is part of the the sure um I mean this is part of the the sort of um brilliant thing about our sort of um brilliant thing about our sort of um brilliant thing about our collaboration is um uh you know collaboration is um uh you know collaboration is um uh you know complimentary skill set so I love complimentary skill set so I love complimentary skill set so I love playing with the abstract space of playing with the abstract space of playing with the abstract space of language and it's a really interesting language and it's a really interesting language and it's a really interesting uh playground when I'm working with Lee uh playground when I'm working with Lee uh playground when I'm working with Lee because uh he thinks that a much deeper because uh he thinks that a much deeper because uh he thinks that a much deeper level of abstraction than can be level of abstraction than can be level of abstraction than can be expressed by language and the ideas we expressed by language and the ideas we expressed by language and the ideas we work on are hard to talk about for that work on are hard to talk about for that work on are hard to talk about for that reason what do you think about reason what do you think about reason what do you think about computation as a language I think it's a computation as a language I think it's a computation as a language I think it's a very poor language a lot of people think very poor language a lot of people think very poor language a lot of people think it's a really great one but I I think it it's a really great one but I I think it it's a really great one but I I think it has some nice properties um but I I has some nice properties um but I I has some nice properties um but I I think the the feature of it that you think the the feature of it that you think the the feature of it that you know is is compelling is this kind of know is is compelling is this kind of know is is compelling is this kind of idea of universality that like you can idea of universality that like you can idea of universality that like you can if you if you if you have a language you if you if you if you have a language you if you if you if you have a language you can describe things in any other can describe things in any other can describe things in any other language well for me one of the people language well for me one of the people language well for me one of the people who kind of who kind of who kind of revealed the expressive power of revealed the expressive power of revealed the expressive power of computation aside from alen touring is computation aside from alen touring is computation aside from alen touring is Steven Wolfram through all the Steven Wolfram through all the Steven Wolfram through all the explorations of like cell aoma type of explorations of like cell aoma type of explorations of like cell aoma type of objects that uh he did in a new kind of objects that uh he did in a new kind of objects that uh he did in a new kind of Science and after afterwards so what Science and after afterwards so what Science and after afterwards so what what do you get from that like what do you get from that like what do you get from that like the the kind of computational Worlds the the kind of computational Worlds the the kind of computational Worlds that are revealed through even something that are revealed through even something that are revealed through even something as simple cellular aoma like it seems as simple cellular aoma like it seems as simple cellular aoma like it seems like that's a really nice way to explore like that's a really nice way to explore like that's a really nice way to explore languages that are far outside our human

languages that are far outside our human languages that are far outside our human languages and do so rigorously and languages and do so rigorously and languages and do so rigorously and understand how those kinds of complex understand how those kinds of complex understand how those kinds of complex systems can interact with each other can systems can interact with each other can systems can interact with each other can emerge all that kind of stuff um I don't emerge all that kind of stuff um I don't emerge all that kind of stuff um I don't think that they're outside our human think that they're outside our human think that they're outside our human languages I think they Define the languages I think they Define the languages I think they Define the boundary of the space of human languages boundary of the space of human languages boundary of the space of human languages they allow us to explore things within they allow us to explore things within they allow us to explore things within that space which is also fantastic but I that space which is also fantastic but I that space which is also fantastic but I think there is a set of ideas that takes think there is a set of ideas that takes think there is a set of ideas that takes and and Steven Wolfram has worked on and and Steven Wolfram has worked on and and Steven Wolfram has worked on this quite a lot um and contributed very this quite a lot um and contributed very this quite a lot um and contributed very significantly to it and um you know I significantly to it and um you know I significantly to it and um you know I really like some of the stuff that really like some of the stuff that really like some of the stuff that Stephen's doing with like his physics Stephen's doing with like his physics Stephen's doing with like his physics project but don't agree with a lot of project but don't agree with a lot of project but don't agree with a lot of the foundations of it but I I think the the foundations of it but I I think the the foundations of it but I I think the Space is really fun that he's exploring Space is really fun that he's exploring Space is really fun that he's exploring um you know there's this assumption that um you know there's this assumption that um you know there's this assumption that computation is at the base of reality computation is at the base of reality computation is at the base of reality and I kind of see it at the top of and I kind of see it at the top of and I kind of see it at the top of reality um not at the base um because I reality um not at the base um because I reality um not at the base um because I think computation was built by our think computation was built by our think computation was built by our biosphere it's a it's something that biosphere it's a it's something that biosphere it's a it's something that happened after many billion years of happened after many billion years of happened after many billion years of evolution um and it doesn't happen in evolution um and it doesn't happen in evolution um and it doesn't happen in every physical object it only happens in every physical object it only happens in every physical object it only happens in some of them and I think one of the some of them and I think one of the some of them and I think one of the reasons that we feel like the universe reasons that we feel like the universe reasons that we feel like the universe is computational is because it's so easy is computational is because it's so easy is computational is because it's so easy for us as things that have the theory of for us as things that have the theory of for us as things that have the theory of computation um in our minds and actually computation um in our minds and actually computation um in our minds and actually in some sense it it might be related to in some sense it it might be related to in some sense it it might be related to the functioning of our minds and how we the functioning of our minds and how we the functioning of our minds and how we build uh languages to describe the world build uh languages to describe the world build uh languages to describe the world and sets of relations to describe the and sets of relations to describe the and sets of relations to describe the world um

world um world um but it's easy for us to go out into the but it's easy for us to go out into the but it's easy for us to go out into the world and build computers and then we world and build computers and then we world and build computers and then we mistake our ability to do that with mistake our ability to do that with mistake our ability to do that with assuming that the world is computational assuming that the world is computational assuming that the world is computational and I'll give you a really simple and I'll give you a really simple and I'll give you a really simple example this one came from John Conway I example this one came from John Conway I example this one came from John Conway I one time had a conversation with him um one time had a conversation with him um one time had a conversation with him um which was really delightful he was which was really delightful he was which was really delightful he was really fun um but he was pointing out really fun um but he was pointing out really fun um but he was pointing out that if you um you know string lights in that if you um you know string lights in that if you um you know string lights in a barn uh you know you can you can a barn uh you know you can you can a barn uh you know you can you can program them to have your favorite program them to have your favorite program them to have your favorite one-dimensional CA uh and you might even one-dimensional CA uh and you might even one-dimensional CA uh and you might even be able to make them you know do a like be able to make them you know do a like be able to make them you know do a like be capable of universal computation is be capable of universal computation is be capable of universal computation is Universal computation a feature of the Universal computation a feature of the Universal computation a feature of the string lights well no no it's probably string lights well no no it's probably string lights well no no it's probably not it's a feature of the fact that you not it's a feature of the fact that you not it's a feature of the fact that you as a programmer had a theory that you as a programmer had a theory that you as a programmer had a theory that you could embed in the physical architecture could embed in the physical architecture could embed in the physical architecture of the string lights now what happens of the string lights now what happens of the string lights now what happens though is we get confused by this kind though is we get confused by this kind though is we get confused by this kind of distinction between us as agents in of distinction between us as agents in of distinction between us as agents in the world that actually can transfer the world that actually can transfer the world that actually can transfer things that life does onto other things that life does onto other things that life does onto other physical substrates with what the world physical substrates with what the world physical substrates with what the world is and so for example you'll see people is and so for example you'll see people is and so for example you'll see people uh you know doing studying the uh you know doing studying the uh you know doing studying the mathematics of chemical reaction mathematics of chemical reaction mathematics of chemical reaction networks and saying well chemistry is networks and saying well chemistry is networks and saying well chemistry is turning Universal or studying the laws turning Universal or studying the laws turning Universal or studying the laws of physics and saying the laws of of physics and saying the laws of of physics and saying the laws of physics are turning Universal but physics are turning Universal but physics are turning Universal but anytime that you want to do that you anytime that you want to do that you anytime that you want to do that you always have to prepare an initial State always have to prepare an initial State always have to prepare an initial State you have to uh you know you have to you have to uh you know you have to you have to uh you know you have to constrain the rule space and then you constrain the rule space and then you constrain the rule space and then you have to actually be able to demonstrate have to actually be able to demonstrate have to actually be able to demonstrate the properties of computation and all of the properties of computation and all of the properties of computation and all of that requires an agent or a designer to

that requires an agent or a designer to that requires an agent or a designer to be able to do that but it gives you an be able to do that but it gives you an be able to do that but it gives you an intuition if you look at a 1D or 2D intuition if you look at a 1D or 2D intuition if you look at a 1D or 2D cellular autometer cellular autometer cellular autometer it gives you uh it allows you to build it gives you uh it allows you to build it gives you uh it allows you to build an intuition of how you can have an intuition of how you can have an intuition of how you can have complexity emerge from very simple complexity emerge from very simple complexity emerge from very simple Beginnings very simple condition I think Beginnings very simple condition I think Beginnings very simple condition I think that's the intuition that people have that's the intuition that people have that's the intuition that people have derived from it the intuition I get from derived from it the intuition I get from derived from it the intuition I get from cellular aoma is that the flat space of cellular aoma is that the flat space of cellular aoma is that the flat space of an initial condition in a fixed an initial condition in a fixed an initial condition in a fixed dynamical law is not rich enough to dynamical law is not rich enough to dynamical law is not rich enough to describe an open-ended generation describe an open-ended generation describe an open-ended generation process and so the way I see cellular process and so the way I see cellular process and so the way I see cellular aoma is they're embedded slices in a aoma is they're embedded slices in a aoma is they're embedded slices in a much larger causal structure and if you much larger causal structure and if you much larger causal structure and if you want to look at a deterministic slice of want to look at a deterministic slice of want to look at a deterministic slice of that causal structure you might be able that causal structure you might be able that causal structure you might be able to extract a set of consistent rules to extract a set of consistent rules to extract a set of consistent rules that you might call a cellular automa that you might call a cellular automa that you might call a cellular automa but you could embed them in this much but you could embed them in this much but you could embed them in this much larger space that's not dynamical and is larger space that's not dynamical and is larger space that's not dynamical and is about the causal structure and relations about the causal structure and relations about the causal structure and relations between all of those computations and between all of those computations and between all of those computations and that would be the space uh Cell tomama that would be the space uh Cell tomama that would be the space uh Cell tomama live in and I think that's the space live in and I think that's the space live in and I think that's the space that uh Stephen is talking about when he that uh Stephen is talking about when he that uh Stephen is talking about when he talks about his ruad and these talks about his ruad and these talks about his ruad and these hypergraphs of all these possible hypergraphs of all these possible hypergraphs of all these possible computations but I wouldn't take that as computations but I wouldn't take that as computations but I wouldn't take that as my base reality because I think again my base reality because I think again my base reality because I think again computation itself this abstract computation itself this abstract computation itself this abstract property computation is not at the base property computation is not at the base property computation is not at the base of reality so can we just uh Ling on of reality so can we just uh Ling on of reality so can we just uh Ling on that ruad this uh one ruad to rule them that ruad this uh one ruad to rule them that ruad this uh one ruad to rule them all yeah so what this is part of uh wol all yeah so what this is part of uh wol all yeah so what this is part of uh wol from physics project it's what he calls from physics project it's what he calls from physics project it's what he calls the entangled limit of everything that the entangled limit of everything that the entangled limit of everything that is computationally possible so what is computationally possible so what is computationally possible so what what's your problem with the rad well

what's your problem with the rad well what's your problem with the rad well it's interesting so so Stephen came to a it's interesting so so Stephen came to a it's interesting so so Stephen came to a workshop we had in the Beyond Center in workshop we had in the Beyond Center in workshop we had in the Beyond Center in the fall and the workshop theme was the fall and the workshop theme was the fall and the workshop theme was mathematics is it evolved or Eternal and mathematics is it evolved or Eternal and mathematics is it evolved or Eternal and he gave a talk about the ruad and he was he gave a talk about the ruad and he was he gave a talk about the ruad and he was talking about how uh you know a lot of talking about how uh you know a lot of talking about how uh you know a lot of the things that we talk about in the the things that we talk about in the the things that we talk about in the Beyond Center like does reality have a Beyond Center like does reality have a Beyond Center like does reality have a bottom you know if it has a bottom what bottom you know if it has a bottom what bottom you know if it has a bottom what is it um you know like I need to I need is it um you know like I need to I need is it um you know like I need to I need to go we'll have you to one sometime to go we'll have you to one sometime to go we'll have you to one sometime this is great um but this reality have a this is great um but this reality have a this is great um but this reality have a bottom yeah so we had one that was um it bottom yeah so we had one that was um it bottom yeah so we had one that was um it was called um infinite turtles or ground was called um infinite turtles or ground was called um infinite turtles or ground truth and it was really just about this truth and it was really just about this truth and it was really just about this this this issue but the but the thing this this issue but the but the thing this this issue but the but the thing that was interesting I think I think that was interesting I think I think that was interesting I think I think Stephen was trying to make the argument Stephen was trying to make the argument Stephen was trying to make the argument that you know fundamental particles that you know fundamental particles that you know fundamental particles aren't fundamental gravitation is not aren't fundamental gravitation is not aren't fundamental gravitation is not fundamental uh you know these are just fundamental uh you know these are just fundamental uh you know these are just uh turtles and computation is uh turtles and computation is uh turtles and computation is fundamental and I just I I remember fundamental and I just I I remember fundamental and I just I I remember pointing out to him I was like well pointing out to him I was like well pointing out to him I was like well computation is your turtle and I think computation is your turtle and I think computation is your turtle and I think it's a weird Turtle to have first of all it's a weird Turtle to have first of all it's a weird Turtle to have first of all isn't it okay to have a turtle it's isn't it okay to have a turtle it's isn't it okay to have a turtle it's totally fine to have a turtle everyone totally fine to have a turtle everyone totally fine to have a turtle everyone has a turtle you can't build a theory has a turtle you can't build a theory has a turtle you can't build a theory without a turtle without a turtle without a turtle um it's just um so it depends on the um it's just um so it depends on the um it's just um so it depends on the problem you want to describe and I problem you want to describe and I problem you want to describe and I actually the the reason I can't get actually the the reason I can't get actually the the reason I can't get behind Steven's ontology is I don't know behind Steven's ontology is I don't know behind Steven's ontology is I don't know what question he's trying to answer and what question he's trying to answer and what question he's trying to answer and without a question to answer I don't without a question to answer I don't without a question to answer I don't understand why you're building a theory understand why you're building a theory understand why you're building a theory of reality and the question you're of reality and the question you're of reality and the question you're trying to answer is uh what life is what trying to answer is uh what life is what trying to answer is uh what life is what life is which another simpler way of life is which another simpler way of life is which another simpler way of phrasing that is how did life originate

phrasing that is how did life originate phrasing that is how did life originate well I started working on the original well I started working on the original well I started working on the original life um and I think what my challenge life um and I think what my challenge life um and I think what my challenge was there was no one knew what life was was there was no one knew what life was was there was no one knew what life was and so you can't really talk about the and so you can't really talk about the and so you can't really talk about the origination of something if you don't origination of something if you don't origination of something if you don't know what it is and so the way I would know what it is and so the way I would know what it is and so the way I would approach it is if you want to understand approach it is if you want to understand approach it is if you want to understand what life is then proving that physics what life is then proving that physics what life is then proving that physics is solving the original life so there's is solving the original life so there's is solving the original life so there's the theory of what life is but there's the theory of what life is but there's the theory of what life is but there's the actual demonstration that that the actual demonstration that that the actual demonstration that that theory is an accurate description of the theory is an accurate description of the theory is an accurate description of the phenomena you aim to describe so again phenomena you aim to describe so again phenomena you aim to describe so again they're the same problem it's not like I they're the same problem it's not like I they're the same problem it's not like I can decouple original life from what can decouple original life from what can decouple original life from what life is it's it's like that is the life is it's it's like that is the life is it's it's like that is the problem um and I the the point I guess problem um and I the the point I guess problem um and I the the point I guess I'm making about having a question is no I'm making about having a question is no I'm making about having a question is no matter what slice of reality you take matter what slice of reality you take matter what slice of reality you take what regularity of nature you're going what regularity of nature you're going what regularity of nature you're going to try to describe there will be there to try to describe there will be there to try to describe there will be there there will be an abstraction that there will be an abstraction that there will be an abstraction that unifies that structure of reality um unifies that structure of reality um unifies that structure of reality um hopefully um and and that will have a hopefully um and and that will have a hopefully um and and that will have a fundamental layer to it right because fundamental layer to it right because fundamental layer to it right because you have to explain something in terms you have to explain something in terms you have to explain something in terms of something else but so if I want to of something else but so if I want to of something else but so if I want to EXP explain life for example then my EXP explain life for example then my EXP explain life for example then my fundamental description of Nature has to fundamental description of Nature has to fundamental description of Nature has to be something I think that has to do with be something I think that has to do with be something I think that has to do with time being fundamental but if I wanted time being fundamental but if I wanted time being fundamental but if I wanted to to to describe um I don't know the sort of describe um I don't know the sort of describe um I don't know the sort of interactions of uh matter and light you interactions of uh matter and light you interactions of uh matter and light you know I have Elementary particles be know I have Elementary particles be know I have Elementary particles be fundamental um if I want to describe fundamental um if I want to describe fundamental um if I want to describe electricity and magnetism in the 1800s I electricity and magnetism in the 1800s I electricity and magnetism in the 1800s I have to have waves um be fundamental have to have waves um be fundamental have to have waves um be fundamental right so like you you or in quantum

right so like you you or in quantum right so like you you or in quantum mechanics like it's a wave function mechanics like it's a wave function mechanics like it's a wave function that's fundamental cuz that's the the that's fundamental cuz that's the the that's fundamental cuz that's the the sort of explanatory Paradigm of your sort of explanatory Paradigm of your sort of explanatory Paradigm of your theory theory theory um so I guess I don't know what problem um so I guess I don't know what problem um so I guess I don't know what problem saying computation is fundamental saying computation is fundamental saying computation is fundamental solves doesn't he want to understand how solves doesn't he want to understand how solves doesn't he want to understand how does the basic quantum mechanics and does the basic quantum mechanics and does the basic quantum mechanics and general relativity general relativity general relativity emerge yeah but and howest time right so emerge yeah but and howest time right so emerge yeah but and howest time right so I think then that doesn't really answer I think then that doesn't really answer I think then that doesn't really answer an important question for us well I an important question for us well I an important question for us well I think the the issue is general think the the issue is general think the the issue is general relativity and quantum mechanics are relativity and quantum mechanics are relativity and quantum mechanics are expressed in mathematical expressed in mathematical expressed in mathematical languages and then computation is a languages and then computation is a languages and then computation is a mathematical language so you're mathematical language so you're mathematical language so you're basically saying that maybe there's a basically saying that maybe there's a basically saying that maybe there's a more Universal mathematical language for more Universal mathematical language for more Universal mathematical language for describing theories of physics that we describing theories of physics that we describing theories of physics that we already know that's an important already know that's an important already know that's an important question and I do think that's what question and I do think that's what question and I do think that's what Steven's trying to do and do well um but Steven's trying to do and do well um but Steven's trying to do and do well um but it's then the question becomes does that it's then the question becomes does that it's then the question becomes does that formulation of a more universal language formulation of a more universal language formulation of a more universal language for describing the laws of physics that for describing the laws of physics that for describing the laws of physics that we know now tell us anything new about we know now tell us anything new about we know now tell us anything new about the nature of reality the nature of reality the nature of reality or is it a or is it a or is it a language and to You languages are language and to You languages are language and to You languages are fundament can be fundament can be fundament can be fundamental the language itself self is fundamental the language itself self is fundamental the language itself self is never the fundamental thing it's never the fundamental thing it's never the fundamental thing it's whatever it's describing so one of the whatever it's describing so one of the whatever it's describing so one of the possible titles you were thinking about possible titles you were thinking about possible titles you were thinking about originally for the book is the hard originally for the book is the hard originally for the book is the hard problem of Life sort of reminiscent of problem of Life sort of reminiscent of problem of Life sort of reminiscent of the hard problem of Consciousness so the hard problem of Consciousness so the hard problem of Consciousness so you're saying that assembly theory is you're saying that assembly theory is you're saying that assembly theory is supposed to be answering the question supposed to be answering the question supposed to be answering the question about what is life so let's go to the

about what is life so let's go to the about what is life so let's go to the other hard problems you also say that's other hard problems you also say that's other hard problems you also say that's the easiest of the hard problems is the the easiest of the hard problems is the the easiest of the hard problems is the is the hard problem of is the hard problem of is the hard problem of Life uh so what do you Life uh so what do you Life uh so what do you think is the nature of intelligence and think is the nature of intelligence and think is the nature of intelligence and Consciousness you think something like Consciousness you think something like Consciousness you think something like assembly Theory can help us understand assembly Theory can help us understand assembly Theory can help us understand that I think if assembly theory is an that I think if assembly theory is an that I think if assembly theory is an accurate depiction of the physics of accurate depiction of the physics of accurate depiction of the physics of Life uh it should shed a lot of light on Life uh it should shed a lot of light on Life uh it should shed a lot of light on those problems and in fact I sometimes those problems and in fact I sometimes those problems and in fact I sometimes wonder if the problems of Consciousness wonder if the problems of Consciousness wonder if the problems of Consciousness and intelligence are at all different and intelligence are at all different and intelligence are at all different than the problem of Life than the problem of Life than the problem of Life generally um and I'm not I'm I I'm of generally um and I'm not I'm I I'm of generally um and I'm not I'm I I'm of two minds of it but I I in general try two minds of it but I I in general try two minds of it but I I in general try to you know like the process of my to you know like the process of my to you know like the process of my thinking is trying to regularize thinking is trying to regularize thinking is trying to regularize everything into one Theory so pretty everything into one Theory so pretty everything into one Theory so pretty much every interaction I have is like oh much every interaction I have is like oh much every interaction I have is like oh how do I fold that into and like so I'm how do I fold that into and like so I'm how do I fold that into and like so I'm just building this giant abstraction just building this giant abstraction just building this giant abstraction that's basically trying to take every that's basically trying to take every that's basically trying to take every piece of data I've ever gotten in my in piece of data I've ever gotten in my in piece of data I've ever gotten in my in my brain into a theory of what life is my brain into a theory of what life is my brain into a theory of what life is um and Consciousness and intelligence um and Consciousness and intelligence um and Consciousness and intelligence are obviously some of the most are obviously some of the most are obviously some of the most interesting things that life has interesting things that life has interesting things that life has manifest and so I think they're very manifest and so I think they're very manifest and so I think they're very telling about some of the deeper telling about some of the deeper telling about some of the deeper features about the nature of life it do features about the nature of life it do features about the nature of life it do seem like they're all flavors of the seem like they're all flavors of the seem like they're all flavors of the same thing but it's interesting to same thing but it's interesting to same thing but it's interesting to wonder like at which stage

wonder like at which stage wonder like at which stage that's something that we we would that's something that we we would that's something that we we would recognize as life in a sort of canonical recognize as life in a sort of canonical recognize as life in a sort of canonical silly human way and something that we silly human way and something that we silly human way and something that we would recognize as would recognize as would recognize as intelligence at which stage does that intelligence at which stage does that intelligence at which stage does that emerge like at which assembly index does emerge like at which assembly index does emerge like at which assembly index does that emerge and which assembly index is that emerge and which assembly index is that emerge and which assembly index is a Consciousness something that we would a Consciousness something that we would a Consciousness something that we would canonically recognize as Consciousness canonically recognize as Consciousness canonically recognize as Consciousness is this the use like this use of flavors is this the use like this use of flavors is this the use like this use of flavors the same as you meant when you're the same as you meant when you're the same as you meant when you're talking about flavors of alien int like talking about flavors of alien int like talking about flavors of alien int like alien life yeah sure yeah I mean it's alien life yeah sure yeah I mean it's alien life yeah sure yeah I mean it's same as the flavors of ice cream and the same as the flavors of ice cream and the same as the flavors of ice cream and the flavors of fashion yeah like but we were flavors of fashion yeah like but we were flavors of fashion yeah like but we were talking about in terms of colors and talking about in terms of colors and talking about in terms of colors and like very non-descript but the way that like very non-descript but the way that like very non-descript but the way that you just talked about flavors now was you just talked about flavors now was you just talked about flavors now was more in like the space of Consciousness more in like the space of Consciousness more in like the space of Consciousness and intelligence it was kind of like and intelligence it was kind of like and intelligence it was kind of like much more specific it'd be nice if there much more specific it'd be nice if there much more specific it'd be nice if there was a formal way of of expressing was a formal way of of expressing was a formal way of of expressing quantifying flavors quantifying flavors quantifying flavors quantifying flavors quantifying flavors quantifying flavors yeah it it seems yeah it it seems yeah it it seems like um I would order it life like um I would order it life like um I would order it life Consciousness intelligence probably as Consciousness intelligence probably as Consciousness intelligence probably as like uh the order in which things emerge like uh the order in which things emerge like uh the order in which things emerge and they're all just it's a part the and they're all just it's a part the and they're all just it's a part the same they're the same we're using the same they're the same we're using the same they're the same we're using the word life differently here I mean life word life differently here I mean life word life differently here I mean life sort of when I'm talking about what is a sort of when I'm talking about what is a sort of when I'm talking about what is a living versus a non-living thing at a living versus a non-living thing at a living versus a non-living thing at a bar with a person I'm already bar with a person I'm already bar with a person I'm already like four or five drinks in that kind of like four or five drinks in that kind of like four or five drinks in that kind of thing just that like we're not we're not thing just that like we're not we're not thing just that like we're not we're not being too philosophical like here's the being too philosophical like here's the being too philosophical like here's the thing that moves and here's the thing thing that moves and here's the thing thing that moves and here's the thing that doesn't move and uh but maybe that doesn't move and uh but maybe that doesn't move and uh but maybe Consciousness precedes that it's a weird

Consciousness precedes that it's a weird Consciousness precedes that it's a weird dance there like is life precede dance there like is life precede dance there like is life precede Consciousness or Consciousness precede Consciousness or Consciousness precede Consciousness or Consciousness precede life and I think that understanding of life and I think that understanding of life and I think that understanding of what life is in the way you're doing what life is in the way you're doing what life is in the way you're doing will help us disentangle that depending will help us disentangle that depending will help us disentangle that depending on what you want to explain as I was on what you want to explain as I was on what you want to explain as I was saying before you have to assume saying before you have to assume saying before you have to assume something's fundamental and so because something's fundamental and so because something's fundamental and so because people can't explain Consciousness uh people can't explain Consciousness uh people can't explain Consciousness uh there's a Temptation for some people to there's a Temptation for some people to there's a Temptation for some people to want to take Consciousness as want to take Consciousness as want to take Consciousness as fundamental and assume everything else fundamental and assume everything else fundamental and assume everything else is derived out of that and then you get is derived out of that and then you get is derived out of that and then you get some people um that want to assume some people um that want to assume some people um that want to assume Consciousness preceded life and I don't Consciousness preceded life and I don't Consciousness preceded life and I don't I don't find either of those views I don't find either of those views I don't find either of those views particularly particularly particularly Illuminating um I think because I don't Illuminating um I think because I don't Illuminating um I think because I don't I don't want to assume a feminology I don't want to assume a feminology I don't want to assume a feminology before I explain a thing and so what before I explain a thing and so what before I explain a thing and so what I've tried really hard to do is is not I've tried really hard to do is is not I've tried really hard to do is is not assume that I think life is anything um assume that I think life is anything um assume that I think life is anything um except hold on to sort of the patterns except hold on to sort of the patterns except hold on to sort of the patterns and structures that seem to be the sort and structures that seem to be the sort and structures that seem to be the sort of consistent ways that we talk about of consistent ways that we talk about of consistent ways that we talk about this thing and then try to build a this thing and then try to build a this thing and then try to build a physics that describes that um and I physics that describes that um and I physics that describes that um and I think that's a really different approach think that's a really different approach think that's a really different approach than saying you know Consciousness is than saying you know Consciousness is than saying you know Consciousness is this thing you know we all feel and this thing you know we all feel and this thing you know we all feel and experience about things um I would want experience about things um I would want experience about things um I would want to understand the regularities to understand the regularities to understand the regularities associated with that and build a deeper associated with that and build a deeper associated with that and build a deeper structure underneath that and build into structure underneath that and build into structure underneath that and build into it I wouldn't want to assume that thing it I wouldn't want to assume that thing it I wouldn't want to assume that thing and that I understand that thing which and that I understand that thing which and that I understand that thing which is usually how I see people talk about is usually how I see people talk about is usually how I see people talk about it the difference between uh life and it the difference between uh life and it the difference between uh life and Consciousness yeah which which comes Consciousness yeah which which comes Consciousness yeah which which comes first yeah so I think if you're thinking first yeah so I think if you're thinking first yeah so I think if you're thinking about about about um this sort of thinking about living

um this sort of thinking about living um this sort of thinking about living things as these giant causal structures things as these giant causal structures things as these giant causal structures or these objects that are deep in time or these objects that are deep in time or these objects that are deep in time or whatever language we end up using to or whatever language we end up using to or whatever language we end up using to describe it describe it describe it um it seems to me that um it seems to me that um it seems to me that Consciousness is about the fact that we Consciousness is about the fact that we Consciousness is about the fact that we have a conscious experience is because have a conscious experience is because have a conscious experience is because we are these temporally extended objects we are these temporally extended objects we are these temporally extended objects so Consciousness and the abstraction so Consciousness and the abstraction so Consciousness and the abstraction that we have in our minds is actually a that we have in our minds is actually a that we have in our minds is actually a manifestation of all the time that's manifestation of all the time that's manifestation of all the time that's rolled up in us and it's just because rolled up in us and it's just because rolled up in us and it's just because we're so huge that we have this very we're so huge that we have this very we're so huge that we have this very large Inner Space that we're large Inner Space that we're large Inner Space that we're experiencing that's not and it's also experiencing that's not and it's also experiencing that's not and it's also separated off from the rest of the world separated off from the rest of the world separated off from the rest of the world because we're the separate thread in because we're the separate thread in because we're the separate thread in time um and so our Consciousness is not time um and so our Consciousness is not time um and so our Consciousness is not exactly shared with anything else exactly shared with anything else exactly shared with anything else because nothing else occupies the same because nothing else occupies the same because nothing else occupies the same uh part of time that we occupy but I can uh part of time that we occupy but I can uh part of time that we occupy but I can understand something about you may be understand something about you may be understand something about you may be being conscious because you and I didn't being conscious because you and I didn't being conscious because you and I didn't separate that far in the past um in in separate that far in the past um in in separate that far in the past um in in terms of our causal history so in some terms of our causal history so in some terms of our causal history so in some sense we can even share experiences with sense we can even share experiences with sense we can even share experiences with each other through language because of each other through language because of each other through language because of that sort of overlap in our structure that sort of overlap in our structure that sort of overlap in our structure well then if uh Consciousness is merely well then if uh Consciousness is merely well then if uh Consciousness is merely temporal separateness then that comes temporal separateness then that comes temporal separateness then that comes before life it's not merely temporal before life it's not merely temporal before life it's not merely temporal separateness it's about the depth in separateness it's about the depth in separateness it's about the depth in that time so it's the reason that my that time so it's the reason that my that time so it's the reason that my conscious experience is not the same as conscious experience is not the same as conscious experience is not the same as yours is because we're separated in time yours is because we're separated in time yours is because we're separated in time the fact that I have a conscious the fact that I have a conscious the fact that I have a conscious experience is because I'm an object experience is because I'm an object experience is because I'm an object that's super deep in time so I'm huge in that's super deep in time so I'm huge in that's super deep in time so I'm huge in time and that means that there's a lot

time and that means that there's a lot time and that means that there's a lot there that I am basically in some sense there that I am basically in some sense there that I am basically in some sense a Universe on to myself because my a Universe on to myself because my a Universe on to myself because my structure is so large relative to the structure is so large relative to the structure is so large relative to the amount of space that I occupy um but it amount of space that I occupy um but it amount of space that I occupy um but it feels like that's possible to do before feels like that's possible to do before feels like that's possible to do before you get anything like bacteria I think you get anything like bacteria I think you get anything like bacteria I think there's a horizon and I don't know how there's a horizon and I don't know how there's a horizon and I don't know how to articulate this yet it's a little bit to articulate this yet it's a little bit to articulate this yet it's a little bit like the Horizon at the original life like the Horizon at the original life like the Horizon at the original life where the space inside a particular where the space inside a particular where the space inside a particular structure becomes so large that it has structure becomes so large that it has structure becomes so large that it has some access to a space that's not um some access to a space that's not um some access to a space that's not um that doesn't feel as physical it's that doesn't feel as physical it's that doesn't feel as physical it's almost like this idea of almost like this idea of almost like this idea of counterfactuals um so I think like the counterfactuals um so I think like the counterfactuals um so I think like the the past history of your horizon is just the past history of your horizon is just the past history of your horizon is just much larger than can be encompassed in much larger than can be encompassed in much larger than can be encompassed in like a small configuration of matter so like a small configuration of matter so like a small configuration of matter so you you can like pull this stuff into you you can like pull this stuff into you you can like pull this stuff into existence this property is maybe a existence this property is maybe a existence this property is maybe a continuous property but there's continuous property but there's continuous property but there's something really different about um something really different about um something really different about um human level physical systems and human human level physical systems and human human level physical systems and human level ability to understand reality I level ability to understand reality I level ability to understand reality I really love David Deutsch's conception really love David Deutsch's conception really love David Deutsch's conception of universal explainers and like and of universal explainers and like and of universal explainers and like and that's related to theory of universal that's related to theory of universal that's related to theory of universal computation um and I think there's some computation um and I think there's some computation um and I think there's some transition that happens there um but transition that happens there um but transition that happens there um but maybe maybe to describe that a little maybe maybe to describe that a little maybe maybe to describe that a little bit better what I can also say is like bit better what I can also say is like bit better what I can also say is like what intelligence is in this this what intelligence is in this this what intelligence is in this this framework so you have these these these framework so you have these these these framework so you have these these these objects that are uh you know large and objects that are uh you know large and objects that are uh you know large and time they were selected to Exist by time they were selected to Exist by time they were selected to Exist by constraining the possible um space of

constraining the possible um space of constraining the possible um space of objects to this particular like all of objects to this particular like all of objects to this particular like all of the matter is funneled into this this the matter is funneled into this this the matter is funneled into this this particular configuration of object um particular configuration of object um particular configuration of object um over time and so these objects arise over time and so these objects arise over time and so these objects arise through selection but the more selection through selection but the more selection through selection but the more selection that you have embedded in you the more that you have embedded in you the more that you have embedded in you the more possible selection you have on your possible selection you have on your possible selection you have on your future and so um so selection and future and so um so selection and future and so um so selection and evolution we usually think about in the evolution we usually think about in the evolution we usually think about in the past sense where selection happened in past sense where selection happened in past sense where selection happened in the past the past the past um but objects that are high density um but objects that are high density um but objects that are high density configurations of matter that have a lot configurations of matter that have a lot configurations of matter that have a lot of selection in them are also selecting of selection in them are also selecting of selection in them are also selecting agents in the universe so they actually agents in the universe so they actually agents in the universe so they actually embody the physics of selection and they embody the physics of selection and they embody the physics of selection and they can select on possible Futures and I can select on possible Futures and I can select on possible Futures and I guess what I'm saying with respect to guess what I'm saying with respect to guess what I'm saying with respect to Consciousness and the experience we have Consciousness and the experience we have Consciousness and the experience we have is that there's something very deep is that there's something very deep is that there's something very deep about that structure and the nature of about that structure and the nature of about that structure and the nature of how we exist in that structure that has how we exist in that structure that has how we exist in that structure that has to do with how how we're navigating that to do with how how we're navigating that to do with how how we're navigating that space and how we generate that space and space and how we generate that space and space and how we generate that space and how we continue to persist in that how we continue to persist in that how we continue to persist in that space is there shortcuts we can take to space is there shortcuts we can take to space is there shortcuts we can take to artificially engineering living artificially engineering living artificially engineering living organisms artificial life artificial organisms artificial life artificial organisms artificial life artificial Consciousness artificial intelligence so Consciousness artificial intelligence so Consciousness artificial intelligence so maybe just looking maybe just looking maybe just looking pragmatically at the uh llms we have pragmatically at the uh llms we have pragmatically at the uh llms we have now do you think those can now do you think those can now do you think those can exhibit qualities of Life qualities of exhibit qualities of Life qualities of exhibit qualities of Life qualities of consciousness qualities of intelligence consciousness qualities of intelligence consciousness qualities of intelligence in the way we think of intelligence I in the way we think of intelligence I in the way we think of intelligence I mean I think they already do but not in mean I think they already do but not in mean I think they already do but not in the way I hear popularly discussed so

the way I hear popularly discussed so the way I hear popularly discussed so they're obviously signatures of they're obviously signatures of they're obviously signatures of intelligence and intelligence and intelligence and um and and a part of a ecosystem of um and and a part of a ecosystem of um and and a part of a ecosystem of intelligent systems but I don't know intelligent systems but I don't know intelligent systems but I don't know that that that individually uh you know I would assign individually uh you know I would assign individually uh you know I would assign all the properties to them that people all the properties to them that people all the properties to them that people have it's a little like uh so you know have it's a little like uh so you know have it's a little like uh so you know we talked about the history of eyes we talked about the history of eyes we talked about the history of eyes before and like how eyes scaled up into before and like how eyes scaled up into before and like how eyes scaled up into technological forms and language has technological forms and language has technological forms and language has also had a really interesting history also had a really interesting history also had a really interesting history and got much more interesting I think and got much more interesting I think and got much more interesting I think once we started writing it down um and once we started writing it down um and once we started writing it down um and then you know in inventing books and then you know in inventing books and then you know in inventing books and things but like you know every time that things but like you know every time that things but like you know every time that we started uh storing language in a new we started uh storing language in a new we started uh storing language in a new way uh you know we were kind of EX way uh you know we were kind of EX way uh you know we were kind of EX existentially traumatized by it so like existentially traumatized by it so like existentially traumatized by it so like you know the idea of written language you know the idea of written language you know the idea of written language was traumatic because it seemed like the was traumatic because it seemed like the was traumatic because it seemed like the dead were speaking to us even though dead were speaking to us even though dead were speaking to us even though they were deceased and books were they were deceased and books were they were deceased and books were traumatic because um you know like traumatic because um you know like traumatic because um you know like suddenly there were lots of copies of suddenly there were lots of copies of suddenly there were lots of copies of this information available to everyone this information available to everyone this information available to everyone and it was going to somehow dilute and it was going to somehow dilute and it was going to somehow dilute dilute it and large language models are dilute it and large language models are dilute it and large language models are kind of interesting because they don't kind of interesting because they don't kind of interesting because they don't feel as static they're very Dynamic but feel as static they're very Dynamic but feel as static they're very Dynamic but if you think about language in the way I if you think about language in the way I if you think about language in the way I was describing before as language is was describing before as language is was describing before as language is this very large in time structure and this very large in time structure and this very large in time structure and before it had been something that was before it had been something that was before it had been something that was distributed over human brains as a distributed over human brains as a distributed over human brains as a dynamic structure and occasionally we dynamic structure and occasionally we dynamic structure and occasionally we store components of that very large store components of that very large store components of that very large dynamic structure in books or in written dynamic structure in books or in written dynamic structure in books or in written language now we can actually store the language now we can actually store the language now we can actually store the Dynamics of that structure in a physical Dynamics of that structure in a physical Dynamics of that structure in a physical artifact which is a large language model

artifact which is a large language model artifact which is a large language model um and so I think about it almost like um and so I think about it almost like um and so I think about it almost like the evolution of genomes in some sense the evolution of genomes in some sense the evolution of genomes in some sense where you know there might have been where you know there might have been where you know there might have been like really primitive genes in the first like really primitive genes in the first like really primitive genes in the first living things and they could they didn't living things and they could they didn't living things and they could they didn't store a lot of information or they were store a lot of information or they were store a lot of information or they were like really messy um and then we you like really messy um and then we you like really messy um and then we you know like you by the time you get to the know like you by the time you get to the know like you by the time you get to the ukar cell you have this really Dynamic ukar cell you have this really Dynamic ukar cell you have this really Dynamic genetic architecture that's rewritable genetic architecture that's rewritable genetic architecture that's rewritable right and like and has all of these right and like and has all of these right and like and has all of these different properties and different properties and different properties and I think large language models are kind I think large language models are kind I think large language models are kind of like the genetic system for language of like the genetic system for language of like the genetic system for language um in some sense where it's it's um in some sense where it's it's um in some sense where it's it's allowing and a sort of archiving that's allowing and a sort of archiving that's allowing and a sort of archiving that's highly Dynamic um and I think it's very highly Dynamic um and I think it's very highly Dynamic um and I think it's very paradoxical to us because obviously in paradoxical to us because obviously in paradoxical to us because obviously in human history we haven't been used to human history we haven't been used to human history we haven't been used to conversing with anything that's not conversing with anything that's not conversing with anything that's not human um but now we can converse uh human um but now we can converse uh human um but now we can converse uh basically with a crystallization of basically with a crystallization of basically with a crystallization of human language in a computer uh that's a human language in a computer uh that's a human language in a computer uh that's a highly Dynamic Crystal because it's a highly Dynamic Crystal because it's a highly Dynamic Crystal because it's a crystallization in time of this massive crystallization in time of this massive crystallization in time of this massive abstract structure that's evolved over abstract structure that's evolved over abstract structure that's evolved over human history and is now put into a human history and is now put into a human history and is now put into a small device I think crystallization small device I think crystallization small device I think crystallization kind of implies that a limit on its kind of implies that a limit on its kind of implies that a limit on its capabilities I think there's not uh I capabilities I think there's not uh I capabilities I think there's not uh I mean it very purposefully because a mean it very purposefully because a mean it very purposefully because a particular instantiation of a language particular instantiation of a language particular instantiation of a language model trained on a particular data set model trained on a particular data set model trained on a particular data set becomes a crystal of the language at becomes a crystal of the language at becomes a crystal of the language at that time it was trained but obviously that time it was trained but obviously that time it was trained but obviously we're iterating with the technology and we're iterating with the technology and we're iterating with the technology and evolving it I guess question is when you evolving it I guess question is when you evolving it I guess question is when you crystallize it when you compress it when crystallize it when you compress it when crystallize it when you compress it when you archive it you're you archive it you're you archive it you're archiving some slice of the collective archiving some slice of the collective archiving some slice of the collective intelligence of the human species that's

intelligence of the human species that's intelligence of the human species that's right and the question is like how right and the question is like how right and the question is like how powerful is that right it's a societal powerful is that right it's a societal powerful is that right it's a societal level technology right we've actually level technology right we've actually level technology right we've actually put collective intelligence in a box put collective intelligence in a box put collective intelligence in a box yeah I mean how much smarter is the yeah I mean how much smarter is the yeah I mean how much smarter is the collective intelligence of humans versus collective intelligence of humans versus collective intelligence of humans versus a single human and that's that's the a single human and that's that's the a single human and that's that's the question of AGI question of AGI question of AGI versus uh human level intelligence versus uh human level intelligence versus uh human level intelligence superhuman level intelligence versus superhuman level intelligence versus superhuman level intelligence versus human level intelligence like how much human level intelligence like how much human level intelligence like how much smarter can this thing when done well smarter can this thing when done well smarter can this thing when done well when we solve a lot of the uh complexity when we solve a lot of the uh complexity when we solve a lot of the uh complexity computation complexities maybe there's computation complexities maybe there's computation complexities maybe there's some data complexities and how to really some data complexities and how to really some data complexities and how to really archive this thing crystallize this archive this thing crystallize this archive this thing crystallize this thing really well yeah how powerful is thing really well yeah how powerful is thing really well yeah how powerful is this thing going to be like what's your this thing going to be like what's your this thing going to be like what's your I I think I I actually I don't like the I I think I I actually I don't like the I I think I I actually I don't like the sort of language we use around that and sort of language we use around that and sort of language we use around that and I think the language really matters um I think the language really matters um I think the language really matters um so I don't know how to talk about how so I don't know how to talk about how so I don't know how to talk about how much smarter one human is than another much smarter one human is than another much smarter one human is than another right like usually we talk right like usually we talk right like usually we talk about abilities or particular talents about abilities or particular talents about abilities or particular talents someone has um and you know going back someone has um and you know going back someone has um and you know going back to you know David D's idea of universal to you know David D's idea of universal to you know David D's idea of universal explainers it like you know adopting The explainers it like you know adopting The explainers it like you know adopting The View that uh you know we're the first View that uh you know we're the first View that uh you know we're the first you know kinds of structures our you know kinds of structures our you know kinds of structures our biosphere has built that can understand biosphere has built that can understand biosphere has built that can understand the rest of reality we have this the rest of reality we have this the rest of reality we have this Universal comprehension capability um Universal comprehension capability um Universal comprehension capability um you know he makes an argument that uh you know he makes an argument that uh you know he makes an argument that uh basically we're the first things that basically we're the first things that basically we're the first things that actually are capable of understanding

actually are capable of understanding actually are capable of understanding anything it doesn't matter it doesn't anything it doesn't matter it doesn't anything it doesn't matter it doesn't mean an individual understands mean an individual understands mean an individual understands everything but like we have that everything but like we have that everything but like we have that capability and so there's not a capability and so there's not a capability and so there's not a difference between that and what people difference between that and what people difference between that and what people talk about with AGI in some sense AGI is talk about with AGI in some sense AGI is talk about with AGI in some sense AGI is a universal explainer but you know like a universal explainer but you know like a universal explainer but you know like it might be that a computer is much more it might be that a computer is much more it might be that a computer is much more efficient at doing um you know uh I efficient at doing um you know uh I efficient at doing um you know uh I don't know prime factorization or don't know prime factorization or don't know prime factorization or something than a human is but it doesn't something than a human is but it doesn't something than a human is but it doesn't mean that it's mean that it's mean that it's necessarily smarter or has a broader necessarily smarter or has a broader necessarily smarter or has a broader reach of the kind of things that can reach of the kind of things that can reach of the kind of things that can understand than a human does and so I understand than a human does and so I understand than a human does and so I think we really have to think about is think we really have to think about is think we really have to think about is it a level shift or is it we're it a level shift or is it we're it a level shift or is it we're enhancing certain kinds of capabilities enhancing certain kinds of capabilities enhancing certain kinds of capabilities humans have in the same way that we can humans have in the same way that we can humans have in the same way that we can enhanced eyesight by making telescopes enhanced eyesight by making telescopes enhanced eyesight by making telescopes and microscopes are we enhancing and microscopes are we enhancing and microscopes are we enhancing capabilities we have into Technologies capabilities we have into Technologies capabilities we have into Technologies and the entire Global ecosystem is and the entire Global ecosystem is and the entire Global ecosystem is getting more intelligent or is it really getting more intelligent or is it really getting more intelligent or is it really that we're building some super machine that we're building some super machine that we're building some super machine in a box that's going to be smart and in a box that's going to be smart and in a box that's going to be smart and kill everybody like I like that sounds kill everybody like I like that sounds kill everybody like I like that sounds like a scci like it's not it's not even like a scci like it's not it's not even like a scci like it's not it's not even a science fiction narrative it's a bad a science fiction narrative it's a bad a science fiction narrative it's a bad science fiction narrative I like I just science fiction narrative I like I just science fiction narrative I like I just don't think it's actually accurate to don't think it's actually accurate to don't think it's actually accurate to any of the Technologies we're building any of the Technologies we're building any of the Technologies we're building or the way that we should be describing or the way that we should be describing or the way that we should be describing them it's not even how we should be them it's not even how we should be them it's not even how we should be describing ourselves so the benevolence describing ourselves so the benevolence describing ourselves so the benevolence story is there's a benevolent system story is there's a benevolent system story is there's a benevolent system that's able to uh transform our economy that's able to uh transform our economy that's able to uh transform our economy our way of life by just you know 10 Xing our way of life by just you know 10 Xing our way of life by just you know 10 Xing the GDP of well these are human the GDP of well these are human the GDP of well these are human questions right I don't think they're questions right I don't think they're questions right I don't think they're necessarily questions that we're going necessarily questions that we're going necessarily questions that we're going to like Outsource to an artificial

to like Outsource to an artificial to like Outsource to an artificial intelligence I think what is happening intelligence I think what is happening intelligence I think what is happening and will continue to happen is there's a and will continue to happen is there's a and will continue to happen is there's a co-evolution between humans and co-evolution between humans and co-evolution between humans and Technology that's happening and we're Technology that's happening and we're Technology that's happening and we're coexisting in this ecosystem right now coexisting in this ecosystem right now coexisting in this ecosystem right now and we're maintaining a lot of the and we're maintaining a lot of the and we're maintaining a lot of the balance and for the balance to shift to balance and for the balance to shift to balance and for the balance to shift to the technology would require some very the technology would require some very the technology would require some very bad human actors which is a real risk or bad human actors which is a real risk or bad human actors which is a real risk or some sort some sort some sort of of of um I don't know some sort of dynamic um I don't know some sort of dynamic um I don't know some sort of dynamic that that that favors like I I just don't know how that favors like I I just don't know how that favors like I I just don't know how that plays out without human agency actually plays out without human agency actually plays out without human agency actually trying to put it in that direction it trying to put it in that direction it trying to put it in that direction it could also be how rapid the rate the could also be how rapid the rate the could also be how rapid the rate the rapid rate is scary so like I think the rapid rate is scary so like I think the rapid rate is scary so like I think the things that are you know terrifying are things that are you know terrifying are things that are you know terrifying are um you know the ideas of deep fakes or um you know the ideas of deep fakes or um you know the ideas of deep fakes or um you know like you know all the the um you know like you know all the the um you know like you know all the the kinds of issues that become legal issues kinds of issues that become legal issues kinds of issues that become legal issues about artificial intelligence about artificial intelligence about artificial intelligence Technologies um and uh using them to Technologies um and uh using them to Technologies um and uh using them to control weapons or uh using them for you control weapons or uh using them for you control weapons or uh using them for you know like child pornography or you know know like child pornography or you know know like child pornography or you know like the or like you know faking out like the or like you know faking out like the or like you know faking out that someone's um you know loved one was that someone's um you know loved one was that someone's um you know loved one was kidnapped or killed and it you know like kidnapped or killed and it you know like kidnapped or killed and it you know like and rans like there's all kinds of and rans like there's all kinds of and rans like there's all kinds of things that are super scary in this things that are super scary in this things that are super scary in this landscape and all kinds of new landscape and all kinds of new landscape and all kinds of new legislation needs to built and all kinds legislation needs to built and all kinds legislation needs to built and all kinds of um guard rails on the technology to of um guard rails on the technology to of um guard rails on the technology to make sure that people don't abuse it make sure that people don't abuse it make sure that people don't abuse it need to be built and that needs to need to be built and that needs to need to be built and that needs to happen and I think one function of sort happen and I think one function of sort happen and I think one function of sort of the artificial intelligence uh

of the artificial intelligence uh of the artificial intelligence uh doomsday uh sort of part of our culture doomsday uh sort of part of our culture doomsday uh sort of part of our culture right now is it's sort of our immune right now is it's sort of our immune right now is it's sort of our immune response to knowing that's coming um and response to knowing that's coming um and response to knowing that's coming um and we're over scaring ourselves so we try we're over scaring ourselves so we try we're over scaring ourselves so we try to act more quickly which is good um but to act more quickly which is good um but to act more quickly which is good um but I I I just you know it's it's about the I I I just you know it's it's about the I I I just you know it's it's about the words that we use versus the actual words that we use versus the actual words that we use versus the actual things happening behind the words I things happening behind the words I things happening behind the words I think one thing that's good is when think one thing that's good is when think one thing that's good is when people are talking about things people are talking about things people are talking about things different ways it makes us think about different ways it makes us think about different ways it makes us think about them and also when things are them and also when things are them and also when things are existentially threatening we want to pay existentially threatening we want to pay existentially threatening we want to pay attention to those but the ways that attention to those but the ways that attention to those but the ways that they're existentially threatening and they're existentially threatening and they're existentially threatening and the ways that we're experiencing the ways that we're experiencing the ways that we're experiencing existential trauma I don't think that existential trauma I don't think that existential trauma I don't think that we're really going to understand for we're really going to understand for we're really going to understand for another Century or two if ever um and I another Century or two if ever um and I another Century or two if ever um and I certainly think they're not the way that certainly think they're not the way that certainly think they're not the way that we're describing them we're describing them we're describing them now well creating existential trauma is now well creating existential trauma is now well creating existential trauma is one of the things that makes life fun I one of the things that makes life fun I one of the things that makes life fun I guess yeah it's just what we do to guess yeah it's just what we do to guess yeah it's just what we do to ourselves it gives us really exciting ourselves it gives us really exciting ourselves it gives us really exciting big problems to solve yeah for sure do big problems to solve yeah for sure do big problems to solve yeah for sure do you think we will see these AI systems you think we will see these AI systems you think we will see these AI systems become conscious or convince us that become conscious or convince us that become conscious or convince us that they're conscious and then maybe we'll they're conscious and then maybe we'll they're conscious and then maybe we'll have relationships with them romantic have relationships with them romantic have relationships with them romantic relationships well I think people are relationships well I think people are relationships well I think people are going to have romantic relationships going to have romantic relationships going to have romantic relationships with them and I also think that some with them and I also think that some with them and I also think that some people would be convinced already that people would be convinced already that people would be convinced already that they're conscious but I think in order they're conscious but I think in order they're conscious but I think in order you know what does it take to convince you know what does it take to convince you know what does it take to convince um convince people that something is um convince people that something is um convince people that something is conscious I think that we actually have conscious I think that we actually have conscious I think that we actually have to have an idea of what we're talking to have an idea of what we're talking to have an idea of what we're talking about that it's like it's like we have

about that it's like it's like we have about that it's like it's like we have to have a theory that explains when to have a theory that explains when to have a theory that explains when things are conscious or not that's things are conscious or not that's things are conscious or not that's testable right and we don't have one testable right and we don't have one testable right and we don't have one right now so I think until we we have right now so I think until we we have right now so I think until we we have that it's always going to be this sort that it's always going to be this sort that it's always going to be this sort of gray area where some people think it of gray area where some people think it of gray area where some people think it hasn't and some people think it doesn't hasn't and some people think it doesn't hasn't and some people think it doesn't because we don't actually know what because we don't actually know what because we don't actually know what we're talking about that we think it has we're talking about that we think it has we're talking about that we think it has so you think it's possible to get out of so you think it's possible to get out of so you think it's possible to get out of the gray area and really have a formal the gray area and really have a formal the gray area and really have a formal test for Consciousness for sure and and test for Consciousness for sure and and test for Consciousness for sure and and for life as you were for sure as we've for life as you were for sure as we've for life as you were for sure as we've been talking about for somebody been talking about for somebody been talking about for somebody Consciousness is a tricky one it is a Consciousness is a tricky one it is a Consciousness is a tricky one it is a tricky one I mean that's why it's called tricky one I mean that's why it's called tricky one I mean that's why it's called the hard problem of Consciousness um the hard problem of Consciousness um the hard problem of Consciousness um because it's hard and you know it might because it's hard and you know it might because it's hard and you know it might even be outside of the purview of even be outside of the purview of even be outside of the purview of science which means that we can't science which means that we can't science which means that we can't understand it in a scientific way there understand it in a scientific way there understand it in a scientific way there might be other ways of coming to might be other ways of coming to might be other ways of coming to understand it but that those may not be understand it but that those may not be understand it but that those may not be the ones that we necessarily want for the ones that we necessarily want for the ones that we necessarily want for technological utility um or for technological utility um or for technological utility um or for developing laws with respect to because developing laws with respect to because developing laws with respect to because the laws are are you know the things the laws are are you know the things the laws are are you know the things that are going to govern the technology that are going to govern the technology that are going to govern the technology um well I think that's actually where um well I think that's actually where um well I think that's actually where the the hard problem of Consciousness a the the hard problem of Consciousness a the the hard problem of Consciousness a different hard problem of Consciousness different hard problem of Consciousness different hard problem of Consciousness is is is that I fear that humans will that I fear that humans will that I fear that humans will resist that's the last thing they will resist that's the last thing they will resist that's the last thing they will resist is calling something else resist is calling something else resist is calling something else conscious oh that's interesting I think conscious oh that's interesting I think conscious oh that's interesting I think it depends on the culture though because it depends on the culture though because it depends on the culture though because I mean some cultures already think like I mean some cultures already think like I mean some cultures already think like everything's imbued with uh you know a everything's imbued with uh you know a everything's imbued with uh you know a life essence or kind of conscious I life essence or kind of conscious I life essence or kind of conscious I don't think those cultures have nuclear don't think those cultures have nuclear don't think those cultures have nuclear weapons no they don't and they're weapons no they don't and they're weapons no they don't and they're probably not building the most Advanced probably not building the most Advanced probably not building the most Advanced Technologies the cultures that are Technologies the cultures that are Technologies the cultures that are primed for destroying the

primed for destroying the primed for destroying the other uh constructing a very effective other uh constructing a very effective other uh constructing a very effective propaganda Machines of what the other is propaganda Machines of what the other is propaganda Machines of what the other is uh the group to hate uh are the are the uh the group to hate uh are the are the uh the group to hate uh are the are the cultures that uh I worry would yeah I cultures that uh I worry would yeah I cultures that uh I worry would yeah I know know know would um would be very resistant to uh would um would be very resistant to uh would um would be very resistant to uh label label label something to sort of acknowledge the something to sort of acknowledge the something to sort of acknowledge the Consciousness Laden in a thing that was Consciousness Laden in a thing that was Consciousness Laden in a thing that was created by as humans and so what do you created by as humans and so what do you created by as humans and so what do you think the risks are there that the think the risks are there that the think the risks are there that the conscious things will get angry with us conscious things will get angry with us conscious things will get angry with us and fight back no that that would that and fight back no that that would that and fight back no that that would that we would torture and kill conscious we would torture and kill conscious we would torture and kill conscious beings beings beings oh yeah I think we do that quite a lot oh yeah I think we do that quite a lot oh yeah I think we do that quite a lot anyway without I I mean I I I don't I anyway without I I mean I I I don't I anyway without I I mean I I I don't I mean it goes back to your and I I don't mean it goes back to your and I I don't mean it goes back to your and I I don't know how to feel about this but you know know how to feel about this but you know know how to feel about this but you know like we talked already about the like we talked already about the like we talked already about the Predator prey thing that like in some Predator prey thing that like in some Predator prey thing that like in some sense uh you know being alive requires sense uh you know being alive requires sense uh you know being alive requires eating other things that are alive and eating other things that are alive and eating other things that are alive and even if you're a vegetarian or you know even if you're a vegetarian or you know even if you're a vegetarian or you know like try to have like you're like you're like try to have like you're like you're like try to have like you're like you're still eating living things I yeah so still eating living things I yeah so still eating living things I yeah so maybe part of the the story of Earth maybe part of the the story of Earth maybe part of the the story of Earth will involve a predator pre dynamic will involve a predator pre dynamic will involve a predator pre dynamic between humans that's Str forist between humans that's Str forist between humans that's Str forist Creations yeah Creations yeah Creations yeah that is part of the but I don't like that is part of the but I don't like that is part of the but I don't like thinking about them as like our thinking about them as like our thinking about them as like our Technologies as a separate species Technologies as a separate species Technologies as a separate species because this again goes back to this because this again goes back to this because this again goes back to this sort of levels of selection issue um and sort of levels of selection issue um and sort of levels of selection issue um and you know if you think about humans you know if you think about humans you know if you think about humans individually alive you miss the fact individually alive you miss the fact individually alive you miss the fact that societies are also alive and so I

that societies are also alive and so I that societies are also alive and so I think about it much more in the sense of think about it much more in the sense of think about it much more in the sense of I an ecosystem is not the right word but I an ecosystem is not the right word but I an ecosystem is not the right word but we don't have the right words for these we don't have the right words for these we don't have the right words for these things of like and this why I talk about things of like and this why I talk about things of like and this why I talk about the technosphere it's a system that is the technosphere it's a system that is the technosphere it's a system that is both human and technological it's not both human and technological it's not both human and technological it's not human or human or human or technological um and so this is the part technological um and so this is the part technological um and so this is the part that I think we're really good for the that I think we're really good for the that I think we're really good for the like and this is driving in part A lot like and this is driving in part A lot like and this is driving in part A lot of the sort of attitude of like I'll of the sort of attitude of like I'll of the sort of attitude of like I'll kill you first with my nuclear weapons kill you first with my nuclear weapons kill you first with my nuclear weapons um we're really good at identifying um we're really good at identifying um we're really good at identifying things as other we're not really good at things as other we're not really good at things as other we're not really good at understanding when we're the same or understanding when we're the same or understanding when we're the same or when we're part of an integrated system when we're part of an integrated system when we're part of an integrated system that's actually functioning together in that's actually functioning together in that's actually functioning together in some kind kind of cohesive way so even some kind kind of cohesive way so even some kind kind of cohesive way so even if you look at like you know the if you look at like you know the if you look at like you know the division in American politics or division in American politics or division in American politics or something for example it's important something for example it's important something for example it's important that there's multiple sides that are that there's multiple sides that are that there's multiple sides that are arguing with each other because that's arguing with each other because that's arguing with each other because that's actually how you resolve society's actually how you resolve society's actually how you resolve society's issues it's not like a bad feature I issues it's not like a bad feature I issues it's not like a bad feature I think like some of the sort of extreme think like some of the sort of extreme think like some of the sort of extreme positions and like the way people talk positions and like the way people talk positions and like the way people talk about are maybe not ideal um but uh but about are maybe not ideal um but uh but about are maybe not ideal um but uh but that's how societies solve problems what that's how societies solve problems what that's how societies solve problems what it looks like for an individual is it looks like for an individual is it looks like for an individual is really different than the societal level really different than the societal level really different than the societal level outcomes and the fact that like there is outcomes and the fact that like there is outcomes and the fact that like there is uh I don't want to call it cognition or uh I don't want to call it cognition or uh I don't want to call it cognition or computation I don't know what you call computation I don't know what you call computation I don't know what you call it but like there is a process playing it but like there is a process playing it but like there is a process playing out in the Dynamics of societies that we out in the Dynamics of societies that we out in the Dynamics of societies that we are all individual actors in and like are all individual actors in and like are all individual actors in and like we're not part of that you know like it we're not part of that you know like it we're not part of that you know like it requires all of us acting individually requires all of us acting individually requires all of us acting individually but like this higher level structure is but like this higher level structure is but like this higher level structure is playing out some things and like things playing out some things and like things playing out some things and like things are getting solved for it to be able to

are getting solved for it to be able to are getting solved for it to be able to maintain itself um and that's the level maintain itself um and that's the level maintain itself um and that's the level that our Technologies live at they don't that our Technologies live at they don't that our Technologies live at they don't live at our level they live at the live at our level they live at the live at our level they live at the societal level and they're deeply societal level and they're deeply societal level and they're deeply integrated with the social organism if integrated with the social organism if integrated with the social organism if you want to call it that um and so I you want to call it that um and so I you want to call it that um and so I really get upset when people talk about really get upset when people talk about really get upset when people talk about the species of artificial intelligence the species of artificial intelligence the species of artificial intelligence I'm like you mean we live in an I'm like you mean we live in an I'm like you mean we live in an ecosystem of all these kind of ecosystem of all these kind of ecosystem of all these kind of intelligent things and these animating intelligent things and these animating intelligent things and these animating technologies that were uh you know in technologies that were uh you know in technologies that were uh you know in some sense helping to come alive we are some sense helping to come alive we are some sense helping to come alive we are we are generating them but it's not like we are generating them but it's not like we are generating them but it's not like the biosphere eliminated all of its past the biosphere eliminated all of its past the biosphere eliminated all of its past history when it invented a new species history when it invented a new species history when it invented a new species all of these things get scaffolded and all of these things get scaffolded and all of these things get scaffolded and we're also augmenting ourselves at the we're also augmenting ourselves at the we're also augmenting ourselves at the same time that we're building same time that we're building same time that we're building Technologies I don't think we can Technologies I don't think we can Technologies I don't think we can anticipate what thatst is going to look anticipate what thatst is going to look anticipate what thatst is going to look like so in some fundamental way you like so in some fundamental way you like so in some fundamental way you always want to be thinking about the always want to be thinking about the always want to be thinking about the planet as one organism the planet is one planet as one organism the planet is one planet as one organism the planet is one living thing what happens when it living thing what happens when it living thing what happens when it becomes multiplanetary is it still just becomes multiplanetary is it still just becomes multiplanetary is it still just a still the same causal chain same a still the same causal chain same a still the same causal chain same causal chain it's like when the first causal chain it's like when the first causal chain it's like when the first cell split into two that's what I was cell split into two that's what I was cell split into two that's what I was talking about when the when a planet talking about when the when a planet talking about when the when a planet reproduces itself the technosphere reproduces itself the technosphere reproduces itself the technosphere emerges enough understanding it's it's emerges enough understanding it's it's emerges enough understanding it's it's it's like this recursive like the entire it's like this recursive like the entire it's like this recursive like the entire history of life is just recursion right history of life is just recursion right history of life is just recursion right so you have an original life event it so you have an original life event it so you have an original life event it evolves for 4 billion years at least on evolves for 4 billion years at least on evolves for 4 billion years at least on our planet it evolves a technosphere the our planet it evolves a technosphere the our planet it evolves a technosphere the Technologies themselves start to Technologies themselves start to Technologies themselves start to become having this property we call life become having this property we call life become having this property we call life which is the phase we're undergoing now which is the phase we're undergoing now which is the phase we're undergoing now it solves the origin of itself and then it solves the origin of itself and then it solves the origin of itself and then it figures out how that process all it figures out how that process all it figures out how that process all works understands how to make more life works understands how to make more life works understands how to make more life and then can copy itself onto another

and then can copy itself onto another and then can copy itself onto another planet so the whole structure can planet so the whole structure can planet so the whole structure can reproduce reproduce reproduce itself and so the original life is itself and so the original life is itself and so the original life is happening again right now on this planet happening again right now on this planet happening again right now on this planet in the technosphere with the way that in the technosphere with the way that in the technosphere with the way that our planet is undergoing another our planet is undergoing another our planet is undergoing another transition just like at the original transition just like at the original transition just like at the original life when geochemistry transitioned to life when geochemistry transitioned to life when geochemistry transitioned to biology which is the global for me it biology which is the global for me it biology which is the global for me it was a planetary scale transition it was was a planetary scale transition it was was a planetary scale transition it was a multiscale thing that happened from a multiscale thing that happened from a multiscale thing that happened from the scale of chemistry all the way to the scale of chemistry all the way to the scale of chemistry all the way to Planetary Cycles um it's happening now Planetary Cycles um it's happening now Planetary Cycles um it's happening now all the way from Individual humans to all the way from Individual humans to all the way from Individual humans to the internet which is a global the internet which is a global the internet which is a global technology and all the other things like technology and all the other things like technology and all the other things like there's this multiscale process that's there's this multiscale process that's there's this multiscale process that's happening and transitioning us globally happening and transitioning us globally happening and transitioning us globally and it is really like it's a dramatic and it is really like it's a dramatic and it is really like it's a dramatic transition it's happening really fast um transition it's happening really fast um transition it's happening really fast um and you we're living in it you think and you we're living in it you think and you we're living in it you think this technosphere that we created this this technosphere that we created this this technosphere that we created this increasingly complex technosphere will increasingly complex technosphere will increasingly complex technosphere will spread to other planets it I hope so I spread to other planets it I hope so I spread to other planets it I hope so I think so do you think we'll become a think so do you think we'll become a think so do you think we'll become a type two kardashev civilization I don't type two kardashev civilization I don't type two kardashev civilization I don't really like the kardashev scale uh and I really like the kardashev scale uh and I really like the kardashev scale uh and I it goes back to like I don't like a lot it goes back to like I don't like a lot it goes back to like I don't like a lot of the narratives about life because of the narratives about life because of the narratives about life because they're very like um you know survival they're very like um you know survival they're very like um you know survival of the fittest energy consuming this of the fittest energy consuming this of the fittest energy consuming this that the other thing it's very like I that the other thing it's very like I that the other thing it's very like I don't know sort of oldw world you know don't know sort of oldw world you know don't know sort of oldw world you know like conqueror mentality um what's the like conqueror mentality um what's the like conqueror mentality um what's the alternative to that exactly I mean I alternative to that exactly I mean I alternative to that exactly I mean I think it does require life to use new think it does require life to use new think it does require life to use new energy sources in order to expand the energy sources in order to expand the energy sources in order to expand the way it is so that part's accurate but I way it is so that part's accurate but I way it is so that part's accurate but I think this sort of process of Life uh think this sort of process of Life uh think this sort of process of Life uh gener like being the the mechanism that gener like being the the mechanism that gener like being the the mechanism that the Universe creatively expresses itself the Universe creatively expresses itself the Universe creatively expresses itself generates novelty explores the space of

generates novelty explores the space of generates novelty explores the space of the possible is really the thing that's the possible is really the thing that's the possible is really the thing that's most deeply intrinsic to life and so you most deeply intrinsic to life and so you most deeply intrinsic to life and so you know these sort of um energy consuming know these sort of um energy consuming know these sort of um energy consuming scales of technology I think is missing scales of technology I think is missing scales of technology I think is missing the sort of the sort of the sort of actual feature that's most prominent actual feature that's most prominent actual feature that's most prominent about any alien life that we might in about any alien life that we might in about any alien life that we might in find which is that it's literally our find which is that it's literally our find which is that it's literally our universe our reality trying to universe our reality trying to universe our reality trying to creatively Express itself and trying to creatively Express itself and trying to creatively Express itself and trying to find out what can exist and trying to find out what can exist and trying to find out what can exist and trying to make it exists see but past a certain make it exists see but past a certain make it exists see but past a certain level of complexity unfortunately maybe level of complexity unfortunately maybe level of complexity unfortunately maybe you can correct me but we're built all you can correct me but we're built all you can correct me but we're built all complex life on Earth is built on a complex life on Earth is built on a complex life on Earth is built on a foundation of that Predator pre Dynamic foundation of that Predator pre Dynamic foundation of that Predator pre Dynamic yes and so like I don't know if we can yes and so like I don't know if we can yes and so like I don't know if we can escape that I don't know we can't but escape that I don't know we can't but escape that I don't know we can't but but this is why I'm okay with having a but this is why I'm okay with having a but this is why I'm okay with having a finite Lifetime and you know one of the finite Lifetime and you know one of the finite Lifetime and you know one of the reasons I'm okay with that actually yeah reasons I'm okay with that actually yeah reasons I'm okay with that actually yeah goes back to this issue of the fact that goes back to this issue of the fact that goes back to this issue of the fact that we're resource bound we live in a you we're resource bound we live in a you we're resource bound we live in a you know like we have a finite amount of know like we have a finite amount of know like we have a finite amount of material whatever way you want to Define material whatever way you want to Define material whatever way you want to Define material I think like for me you know material I think like for me you know material I think like for me you know material is time material is information material is time material is information material is time material is information but we have a finite amount of material but we have a finite amount of material but we have a finite amount of material um if time is a generating mechanism um if time is a generating mechanism um if time is a generating mechanism it's always going to be finite because it's always going to be finite because it's always going to be finite because the universe is you know like it's it's the universe is you know like it's it's the universe is you know like it's it's it's a resource that's getting generated it's a resource that's getting generated it's a resource that's getting generated but it has a size um which means that but it has a size um which means that but it has a size um which means that all the things that could exist don't all the things that could exist don't all the things that could exist don't exist and in fact most of them never exist and in fact most of them never exist and in fact most of them never will so death is a way to make room in will so death is a way to make room in will so death is a way to make room in the universe for other things to exist the universe for other things to exist the universe for other things to exist that wouldn't be able to exist otherwise that wouldn't be able to exist otherwise that wouldn't be able to exist otherwise so if the universe over its entire so if the universe over its entire so if the universe over its entire temporal history wants to maximize the temporal history wants to maximize the temporal history wants to maximize the number of things want is a hard word number of things want is a hard word number of things want is a hard word maximize a hard word all these things

maximize a hard word all these things maximize a hard word all these things are approximate but wants to maximize are approximate but wants to maximize are approximate but wants to maximize the number of things that can exist the the number of things that can exist the the number of things that can exist the best way to do it is to make recursively best way to do it is to make recursively best way to do it is to make recursively embedded stacked objects like us that embedded stacked objects like us that embedded stacked objects like us that have a lot of structure and a small have a lot of structure and a small have a lot of structure and a small volume of space and to have those things volume of space and to have those things volume of space and to have those things turn over rapidly so you can create as turn over rapidly so you can create as turn over rapidly so you can create as many of them as possible so there for many of them as possible so there for many of them as possible so there for sure is a bunch of those kinds of things sure is a bunch of those kinds of things sure is a bunch of those kinds of things throughout the Universe hopefully throughout the Universe hopefully throughout the Universe hopefully hopefully our universe is teaming with hopefully our universe is teaming with hopefully our universe is teaming with life this is like early on in the life this is like early on in the life this is like early on in the conversation you mentioned that we conversation you mentioned that we conversation you mentioned that we really don't understand really don't understand really don't understand much like there's mystery all around us much like there's mystery all around us much like there's mystery all around us yes if you had to like bet money on it yes if you had to like bet money on it yes if you had to like bet money on it like what percent so like say aill like what percent so like say aill like what percent so like say aill million years from now the story of million years from now the story of million years from now the story of science science science M and uh human understanding M and uh human understanding M and uh human understanding understanding that uh started on Earth understanding that uh started on Earth understanding that uh started on Earth is written like what chapter are we on is written like what chapter are we on is written like what chapter are we on are We like is this like 1% 10% are We like is this like 1% 10% are We like is this like 1% 10% 20% um 50% 90% how much do we understand 20% um 50% 90% how much do we understand 20% um 50% 90% how much do we understand like the big stuff not not like the like the big stuff not not like the like the big stuff not not like the details of like like big important details of like like big important details of like like big important questions yeah and ideas I think we're questions yeah and ideas I think we're questions yeah and ideas I think we're in our in our in our 20s and 20% 20 no like agewise let's say 20s and 20% 20 no like agewise let's say 20s and 20% 20 no like agewise let's say we're in our 20s but the lifespan is we're in our 20s but the lifespan is we're in our 20s but the lifespan is going to keep getting longer you can't going to keep getting longer you can't going to keep getting longer you can't do that I can you know why I use that do that I can you know why I use that do that I can you know why I use that though I'll tell you why uh why my brain though I'll tell you why uh why my brain though I'll tell you why uh why my brain went there is because uh you know went there is because uh you know went there is because uh you know anybody that gets an education in anybody that gets an education in anybody that gets an education in physics you know has this sort of Trope

physics you know has this sort of Trope physics you know has this sort of Trope about how all the great physicists did about how all the great physicists did about how all the great physicists did their best work in their 20s uh and then their best work in their 20s uh and then their best work in their 20s uh and then you don't do any good work after that you don't do any good work after that you don't do any good work after that and I always thought it was kind of and I always thought it was kind of and I always thought it was kind of funny because for me physics uh is funny because for me physics uh is funny because for me physics uh is um is not complete it's not nearly um is not complete it's not nearly um is not complete it's not nearly complete but most physicists think that complete but most physicists think that complete but most physicists think that we understand most of the structure of we understand most of the structure of we understand most of the structure of reality and so I I think I I actually I reality and so I I think I I actually I reality and so I I think I I actually I think I put this in the book somewhere think I put this in the book somewhere think I put this in the book somewhere but like this idea to me that societies but like this idea to me that societies but like this idea to me that societies would discover everything while they're would discover everything while they're would discover everything while they're young is very consistent with the way we young is very consistent with the way we young is very consistent with the way we talk about physics right now um but I talk about physics right now um but I talk about physics right now um but I don't think that's actually the way that don't think that's actually the way that don't think that's actually the way that things are going to go and you're you're things are going to go and you're you're things are going to go and you're you're finding that people that are making finding that people that are making finding that people that are making major discoveries are getting older in major discoveries are getting older in major discoveries are getting older in some sense than they were and our some sense than they were and our some sense than they were and our lifespan is also increasing so I think lifespan is also increasing so I think lifespan is also increasing so I think there is something about age and your there is something about age and your there is something about age and your ability to learn and how much of the ability to learn and how much of the ability to learn and how much of the world you can see that's really world you can see that's really world you can see that's really important over a human lifespan but also important over a human lifespan but also important over a human lifespan but also over the lifespan of societies and so I over the lifespan of societies and so I over the lifespan of societies and so I don't know how big the frontier is I don't know how big the frontier is I don't know how big the frontier is I don't actually think it has a limit I I don't actually think it has a limit I I don't actually think it has a limit I I don't believe in Infinity as a physical don't believe in Infinity as a physical don't believe in Infinity as a physical thing but I think as a a receding thing but I think as a a receding thing but I think as a a receding Horizon I think because the universe is Horizon I think because the universe is Horizon I think because the universe is getting bigger you can never know all of getting bigger you can never know all of getting bigger you can never know all of it well I think it's it well I think it's it well I think it's about about about 1.7% 1.7 where is that come from it's a 1.7% 1.7 where is that come from it's a 1.7% 1.7 where is that come from it's a finite I don't know I just made it up finite I don't know I just made it up finite I don't know I just made it up but it's like that number had to come but it's like that number had to come but it's like that number had to come from somewhere it certainly I think from somewhere it certainly I think from somewhere it certainly I think seven is the thing that people usually

seven is the thing that people usually seven is the thing that people usually pick 7% so I I wanted to say 1% but I pick 7% so I I wanted to say 1% but I pick 7% so I I wanted to say 1% but I thought it would be funnier yeah a point thought it would be funnier yeah a point thought it would be funnier yeah a point you know soor inject a little humor in you know soor inject a little humor in you know soor inject a little humor in there so the seven is for the humor one there so the seven is for the humor one there so the seven is for the humor one is for how much mystery I think there is is for how much mystery I think there is is for how much mystery I think there is out there 99% mystery 1% known in terms out there 99% mystery 1% known in terms out there 99% mystery 1% known in terms of like really big important questions of like really big important questions of like really big important questions yeah it's like the list say there's yeah it's like the list say there's yeah it's like the list say there's going to be like 200 chapters like the going to be like 200 chapters like the going to be like 200 chapters like the stuff that's going to remain stuff that's going to remain stuff that's going to remain true but you think the book has a finite true but you think the book has a finite true but you think the book has a finite size yeah yeah and I size yeah yeah and I size yeah yeah and I don't I mean not that I believe in don't I mean not that I believe in don't I mean not that I believe in infinities but I don't I think the size infinities but I don't I think the size infinities but I don't I think the size of the book is of the book is of the book is growing well the fact that the size of growing well the fact that the size of growing well the fact that the size of the book is growing is one of the the book is growing is one of the the book is growing is one of the chapters in the book oh there you go oh chapters in the book oh there you go oh chapters in the book oh there you go oh we're we're being we're we're being we're we're being recursive I think you have to you can't recursive I think you have to you can't recursive I think you have to you can't you can't have an Ever growing book yes you can't have an Ever growing book yes you can't have an Ever growing book yes you can I mean you just I mean I don't you can I mean you just I mean I don't you can I mean you just I mean I don't even because then well you couldn't have even because then well you couldn't have even because then well you couldn't have been asking this at the original life been asking this at the original life been asking this at the original life right because obviously like you right because obviously like you right because obviously like you wouldn't have existed the original life wouldn't have existed the original life wouldn't have existed the original life but like the question of intelligence but like the question of intelligence but like the question of intelligence and icial General like those questions and icial General like those questions and icial General like those questions did not exist then and so and they in did not exist then and so and they in did not exist then and so and they in part existed because the universe part existed because the universe part existed because the universe invented a space for those questions to invented a space for those questions to invented a space for those questions to exist through exist through exist through Evolution but like I think that question Evolution but like I think that question Evolution but like I think that question will still stand a thousand years from will still stand a thousand years from will still stand a thousand years from now it will but there will be other now it will but there will be other now it will but there will be other questions we can't anticipate now that questions we can't anticipate now that questions we can't anticipate now that we'll be asking yeah and maybe we'll we'll be asking yeah and maybe we'll we'll be asking yeah and maybe we'll develop the kinds of develop the kinds of develop the kinds of languages that would be able to ask much

languages that would be able to ask much languages that would be able to ask much better questions right or like like the better questions right or like like the better questions right or like like the theory of like gravitation for example theory of like gravitation for example theory of like gravitation for example like when we invented to that theory like when we invented to that theory like when we invented to that theory like we only knew about the planets in like we only knew about the planets in like we only knew about the planets in our solar system right and now you know our solar system right and now you know our solar system right and now you know many centuries later we know about all many centuries later we know about all many centuries later we know about all these planets around other stars and these planets around other stars and these planets around other stars and black holes and other things that we black holes and other things that we black holes and other things that we could never have anticipated so and then could never have anticipated so and then could never have anticipated so and then we can ask questions about them um you we can ask questions about them um you we can ask questions about them um you know like we wouldn't have been asking know like we wouldn't have been asking know like we wouldn't have been asking about singularities and like can they about singularities and like can they about singularities and like can they really be physical things in the really be physical things in the really be physical things in the universe several hundred years ago that universe several hundred years ago that universe several hundred years ago that question couldn't question couldn't question couldn't exist yeah but it's not I still think exist yeah but it's not I still think exist yeah but it's not I still think those are chapters in a book like I those are chapters in a book like I those are chapters in a book like I don't get a sense from that so do you don't get a sense from that so do you don't get a sense from that so do you think that Universe has an think that Universe has an think that Universe has an end if you think it's a book with an end end if you think it's a book with an end end if you think it's a book with an end I think the number of words required to I think the number of words required to I think the number of words required to describe how the universe works as an describe how the universe works as an describe how the universe works as an end yes meaning like I don't care if it's yes meaning like I don't care if it's infinite or not right as long as the infinite or not right as long as the infinite or not right as long as the explanation is simple and it exists oh I explanation is simple and it exists oh I explanation is simple and it exists oh I see and I think there is a finite see and I think there is a finite see and I think there is a finite explanation for each aspect of it the explanation for each aspect of it the explanation for each aspect of it the Consciousness the life yeah um I mean Consciousness the life yeah um I mean Consciousness the life yeah um I mean very probably there's like very probably there's like very probably there's like some the black hole thing is like what's some the black hole thing is like what's some the black hole thing is like what's going on there where's that going like going on there where's that going like going on there where's that going like where do they what and then you know why where do they what and then you know why where do they what and then you know why the Big Bang like what right it's the Big Bang like what right it's the Big Bang like what right it's probably there's just a huge number of probably there's just a huge number of probably there's just a huge number of universes and it's like universes inside universes and it's like universes inside universes and it's like universes inside univers I think universes inside univers I think universes inside univers I think universes inside universes is maybe possible I just think universes is maybe possible I just think universes is maybe possible I just think it's it um every time we assume this is

it's it um every time we assume this is it's it um every time we assume this is all the is it turns out there's much all the is it turns out there's much all the is it turns out there's much more the universe is a huge place and we more the universe is a huge place and we more the universe is a huge place and we mostly talked about the past and the mostly talked about the past and the mostly talked about the past and the richness of the past but the future I richness of the past but the future I richness of the past but the future I mean with with many worlds mean with with many worlds mean with with many worlds interpretation of quantum interpretation of quantum interpretation of quantum mechanics so oh I'm not a many worlds mechanics so oh I'm not a many worlds mechanics so oh I'm not a many worlds person you're not no are you how many person you're not no are you how many person you're not no are you how many lexes are there depending on the day lexes are there depending on the day lexes are there depending on the day well do some of them wear yellow jackets well do some of them wear yellow jackets well do some of them wear yellow jackets at the m at the moment we asked the at the m at the moment we asked the at the m at the moment we asked the question there was one at the moment I'm question there was one at the moment I'm question there was one at the moment I'm answering it there's now in near answering it there's now in near answering it there's now in near Infinity apparently Infinity apparently Infinity apparently um I mean the future um I mean the future um I mean the future is the future is bigger than the past is the future is bigger than the past is the future is bigger than the past yes yes okay well there you go but in yes yes okay well there you go but in yes yes okay well there you go but in the past according to already gigantic the past according to already gigantic the past according to already gigantic yeah but yeah I mean that's consistent yeah but yeah I mean that's consistent yeah but yeah I mean that's consistent with many worlds right because like with many worlds right because like with many worlds right because like there's this constant branching so but there's this constant branching so but there's this constant branching so but it doesn't really have a directionality it doesn't really have a directionality it doesn't really have a directionality to it it's it's a I don't know many to it it's it's a I don't know many to it it's it's a I don't know many worlds is weird so my interpretation of worlds is weird so my interpretation of worlds is weird so my interpretation of reality is like if you fold it up like reality is like if you fold it up like reality is like if you fold it up like all that bifurcation of many worlds and all that bifurcation of many worlds and all that bifurcation of many worlds and you just fold it into the structure that you just fold it into the structure that you just fold it into the structure that is you and you just said you are all of is you and you just said you are all of is you and you just said you are all of those many worlds those many worlds those many worlds and like that sort of you know like like and like that sort of you know like like and like that sort of you know like like your history like converged on you but your history like converged on you but your history like converged on you but like you're you're actually an object like you're you're actually an object like you're you're actually an object exists that's like that you know was exists that's like that you know was exists that's like that you know was selected to exist and you're selected to exist and you're selected to exist and you're self-consistent with the other self-consistent with the other self-consistent with the other structures so like the quantum structures so like the quantum structures so like the quantum mechanical reality is is not the one mechanical reality is is not the one mechanical reality is is not the one that you live in it's this very that you live in it's this very that you live in it's this very deterministic uh classical world and deterministic uh classical world and deterministic uh classical world and you're carving a path through that space you're carving a path through that space you're carving a path through that space But I don't think that you're constantly But I don't think that you're constantly But I don't think that you're constantly branching into new spaces I think you branching into new spaces I think you branching into new spaces I think you are that face wait so to you at at the

are that face wait so to you at at the are that face wait so to you at at the bottom it's deterministic I thought you bottom it's deterministic I thought you bottom it's deterministic I thought you said the universe no it's random at the said the universe no it's random at the said the universe no it's random at the bottom right but like this Randomness bottom right but like this Randomness bottom right but like this Randomness that we see at the bottom of reality that we see at the bottom of reality that we see at the bottom of reality that is quantum mechanics I think like that is quantum mechanics I think like that is quantum mechanics I think like people have assumed that is reality and people have assumed that is reality and people have assumed that is reality and what I'm saying is like all those things what I'm saying is like all those things what I'm saying is like all those things you see in many worlds all those you see in many worlds all those you see in many worlds all those versions of you just collect them up and versions of you just collect them up and versions of you just collect them up and bundle them up and like they're all you bundle them up and like they're all you bundle them up and like they're all you and what has happened is you know like and what has happened is you know like and what has happened is you know like Elementary particles don't have they Elementary particles don't have they Elementary particles don't have they don't live in in a deterministic don't live in in a deterministic don't live in in a deterministic universe the things that we study in universe the things that we study in universe the things that we study in Quantum experiments they live in this Quantum experiments they live in this Quantum experiments they live in this fuzzy random space But as that structure fuzzy random space But as that structure fuzzy random space But as that structure collapsed and started to build collapsed and started to build collapsed and started to build structures that were deterministic and structures that were deterministic and structures that were deterministic and evolved into you you are a very evolved into you you are a very evolved into you you are a very deterministic microscopic macroscopic deterministic microscopic macroscopic deterministic microscopic macroscopic object and you can look down on that object and you can look down on that object and you can look down on that universe that doesn't have time in it universe that doesn't have time in it universe that doesn't have time in it that random structure um and you can see that random structure um and you can see that random structure um and you can see that all of these possibilities look that all of these possibilities look that all of these possibilities look possible but they don't look they're not possible but they don't look they're not possible but they don't look they're not possible for you because you're possible for you because you're possible for you because you're constrained by this giant like causal constrained by this giant like causal constrained by this giant like causal structural history structural history structural history um so you can't live in all those um so you can't live in all those um so you can't live in all those universes you'd have to go all the way universes you'd have to go all the way universes you'd have to go all the way back to the very beginning of the back to the very beginning of the back to the very beginning of the universe and retrace everything again to universe and retrace everything again to universe and retrace everything again to be a different you so where's the source be a different you so where's the source be a different you so where's the source of the Free Will for the macro object um of the Free Will for the macro object um of the Free Will for the macro object um it's the fact that your deterministic it's the fact that your deterministic it's the fact that your deterministic structure living in a random background structure living in a random background structure living in a random background and also all of that selection bundled and also all of that selection bundled and also all of that selection bundled in you allows you to select on possible in you allows you to select on possible in you allows you to select on possible Futures so that's where your will comes Futures so that's where your will comes Futures so that's where your will comes from and there's just always a little from and there's just always a little from and there's just always a little bit of Randomness because the universe bit of Randomness because the universe bit of Randomness because the universe is getting bigger and you know like uh is getting bigger and you know like uh is getting bigger and you know like uh this idea that the past is in the

this idea that the past is in the this idea that the past is in the present is not large enough yet to present is not large enough yet to present is not large enough yet to contain the future the extra structure contain the future the extra structure contain the future the extra structure has to come from somewhere um and some has to come from somewhere um and some has to come from somewhere um and some of that is because outside of those of that is because outside of those of that is because outside of those giant causal structures that are things giant causal structures that are things giant causal structures that are things like us it's fucking random out like us it's fucking random out like us it's fucking random out there and it's scary and we're all there and it's scary and we're all there and it's scary and we're all hanging on to each other because the hanging on to each other because the hanging on to each other because the only way to hang on to each other like only way to hang on to each other like only way to hang on to each other like the only way to exist is to like cling the only way to exist is to like cling the only way to exist is to like cling on to all of these causal structures on to all of these causal structures on to all of these causal structures that we have happen to co-inhabit that we have happen to co-inhabit that we have happen to co-inhabit existence with and try to keep existence with and try to keep existence with and try to keep reinforcing each other's reinforcing each other's reinforcing each other's existence all the selection bundled in existence all the selection bundled in existence all the selection bundled in us but but free Will's totally us but but free Will's totally us but but free Will's totally consistent with that I don't know what I consistent with that I don't know what I consistent with that I don't know what I think about that that's complicated to think about that that's complicated to think about that that's complicated to imagine just that little bit of imagine just that little bit of imagine just that little bit of Randomness is enough okay well it's also Randomness is enough okay well it's also Randomness is enough okay well it's also it's not just the randomness there's two it's not just the randomness there's two it's not just the randomness there's two features one is the randomness helps features one is the randomness helps features one is the randomness helps generate some novelty and some generate some novelty and some generate some novelty and some flexibility but it's also that like flexibility but it's also that like flexibility but it's also that like because you you're you're the structure because you you're you're the structure because you you're you're the structure that's deep in time you have this common that's deep in time you have this common that's deep in time you have this common tutorial history that's you and uh I tutorial history that's you and uh I tutorial history that's you and uh I think about time and assembly Theory not think about time and assembly Theory not think about time and assembly Theory not as linear time but as comori time so if as linear time but as comori time so if as linear time but as comori time so if you have all of the structure that you have all of the structure that you have all of the structure that you're built out of you in principle you you're built out of you in principle you you're built out of you in principle you know your future can be combinations of know your future can be combinations of know your future can be combinations of that structure you obviously need to that structure you obviously need to that structure you obviously need to persist yourself as a coherent you so persist yourself as a coherent you so persist yourself as a coherent you so you want to optimize for a Comin like a you want to optimize for a Comin like a you want to optimize for a Comin like a a a future in that combinatorial space a a future in that combinatorial space a a future in that combinatorial space that still includes you um most of the that still includes you um most of the that still includes you um most of the time for most of us time for most of us time for most of us um and um and when you make those kinds

um and um and when you make those kinds um and um and when you make those kinds and then that gives you a space to and then that gives you a space to and then that gives you a space to operate in uh and that's your sort of operate in uh and that's your sort of operate in uh and that's your sort of horizon where your free will can operate horizon where your free will can operate horizon where your free will can operate and your free will can't be and your free will can't be and your free will can't be instantaneous so for like ex example instantaneous so for like ex example instantaneous so for like ex example like I'm sitting here talking to you like I'm sitting here talking to you like I'm sitting here talking to you right now I can't be in the UK and I right now I can't be in the UK and I right now I can't be in the UK and I can't be in Arizona but I could plan I can't be in Arizona but I could plan I can't be in Arizona but I could plan I could execute My Free Will over time could execute My Free Will over time could execute My Free Will over time because Free Will is a temporal feature because Free Will is a temporal feature because Free Will is a temporal feature of Life uh to be there you know to of Life uh to be there you know to of Life uh to be there you know to tomorrow or the or the next day if I tomorrow or the or the next day if I tomorrow or the or the next day if I wanted to but what about like the wanted to but what about like the wanted to but what about like the instantaneous decisions you're making instantaneous decisions you're making instantaneous decisions you're making like to I don't know to put your hand on like to I don't know to put your hand on like to I don't know to put your hand on the table that's I think those were the table that's I think those were the table that's I think those were already decided a while ago I don't already decided a while ago I don't already decided a while ago I don't think that that I don't think Free Will think that that I don't think Free Will think that that I don't think Free Will is ever instantaneous but on a longer is ever instantaneous but on a longer is ever instantaneous but on a longer time Horizon yep there's some kind of time Horizon yep there's some kind of time Horizon yep there's some kind of steering going on steering going on steering going on mhm and who's doing the steering you mhm and who's doing the steering you mhm and who's doing the steering you are and you being this macro object are and you being this macro object are and you being this macro object that's that's that's encompasses or you being encompasses or you being encompasses or you being Lex whatever you want to call Lex whatever you want to call Lex whatever you want to call it there there you are assigning words it there there you are assigning words it there there you are assigning words to things once again I know why does to things once again I know why does to things once again I know why does anything exist at anything exist at anything exist at all you've kind of taken that as a all you've kind of taken that as a all you've kind of taken that as a starting point yeah it exists I think starting point yeah it exists I think starting point yeah it exists I think that's the hardest question isn't it that's the hardest question isn't it that's the hardest question isn't it just hard questions stack on top of each just hard questions stack on top of each just hard questions stack on top of each other wouldn't it be the same kind of other wouldn't it be the same kind of other wouldn't it be the same kind of question of what is life it is the same question of what is life it is the same question of what is life it is the same well that's that's sort of like I try to well that's that's sort of like I try to well that's that's sort of like I try to fold all of the questions into that fold all of the questions into that fold all of the questions into that question because I think that one's question because I think that one's question because I think that one's really hard and I think the nature of

really hard and I think the nature of really hard and I think the nature of existence is really hard you think existence is really hard you think existence is really hard you think actually like answering what is life actually like answering what is life actually like answering what is life will help us understand existence maybe will help us understand existence maybe will help us understand existence maybe maybe maybe maybe there's it's it's Turtles all the way there's it's it's Turtles all the way there's it's it's Turtles all the way down it it'll down it it'll down it it'll just understanding the nature of turtles just understanding the nature of turtles just understanding the nature of turtles will help us kind of March down even if will help us kind of March down even if will help us kind of March down even if we don't have the experimental we don't have the experimental we don't have the experimental methodology of reaching before the bang methodology of reaching before the bang methodology of reaching before the bang bang right so well I think there's bang right so well I think there's bang right so well I think there's there's sort of two questions embedded there's sort of two questions embedded there's sort of two questions embedded here I think the one that we can answer here I think the one that we can answer here I think the one that we can answer by answering life is why certain things by answering life is why certain things by answering life is why certain things exist and others don't um but I think exist and others don't um but I think exist and others don't um but I think the sort of ultimate question the sort the sort of ultimate question the sort the sort of ultimate question the sort of like prime mover question of why of like prime mover question of why of like prime mover question of why anything exists we will not be able to anything exists we will not be able to anything exists we will not be able to answer what's outside the universe oh answer what's outside the universe oh answer what's outside the universe oh there's nothing outside the universe so there's nothing outside the universe so there's nothing outside the universe so I I have a very um I am a very like I am I I have a very um I am a very like I am I I have a very um I am a very like I am like the most physicalist that like like the most physicalist that like like the most physicalist that like anyone could be so like for me anyone could be so like for me anyone could be so like for me everything exists in our universe and everything exists in our universe and everything exists in our universe and and like I like to like think like and like I like to like think like and like I like to like think like everything exists here so even when we everything exists here so even when we everything exists here so even when we talk about the Multiverse I don't like talk about the Multiverse I don't like talk about the Multiverse I don't like to me it's not like there's all these to me it's not like there's all these to me it's not like there's all these other universes outside of our universe other universes outside of our universe other universes outside of our universe that exist the Multiverse is a concept that exist the Multiverse is a concept that exist the Multiverse is a concept that exists in human Minds here and it that exists in human Minds here and it that exists in human Minds here and it allows us to have some counterfactual allows us to have some counterfactual allows us to have some counterfactual reasoning to reason about our own reasoning to reason about our own reasoning to reason about our own cosmology and therefore it's causal in cosmology and therefore it's causal in cosmology and therefore it's causal in our biosphere to understanding the our biosphere to understanding the our biosphere to understanding the reality that live in and building better reality that live in and building better reality that live in and building better theories but I don't think that the theories but I don't think that the theories but I don't think that the Multiverse is something like and and Multiverse is something like and and Multiverse is something like and and also math like I don't think there's a also math like I don't think there's a also math like I don't think there's a platonic world that mathematical things

platonic world that mathematical things platonic world that mathematical things live in I think mathematical things are live in I think mathematical things are live in I think mathematical things are here on this planet like I don't think here on this planet like I don't think here on this planet like I don't think it makes sense to talk about things that it makes sense to talk about things that it makes sense to talk about things that exist outside of the universe if you're exist outside of the universe if you're exist outside of the universe if you're talking about them you're already talking about them you're already talking about them you're already talking about something that exists talking about something that exists talking about something that exists inside the universe and is part of the inside the universe and is part of the inside the universe and is part of the universe and is part of like what the universe and is part of like what the universe and is part of like what the universe is building it all originates universe is building it all originates universe is building it all originates here it all exists here in some I mean here it all exists here in some I mean here it all exists here in some I mean what else would there be what else would there be what else would there be there could be things you can't possibly there could be things you can't possibly there could be things you can't possibly understand outside of all of this that understand outside of all of this that understand outside of all of this that we call the universe and you can say we call the universe and you can say we call the universe and you can say that and that's an interesting that and that's an interesting that and that's an interesting philosophy but again this is sort of philosophy but again this is sort of philosophy but again this is sort of like pushing on the boundaries of like like pushing on the boundaries of like like pushing on the boundaries of like the way that we understand things I the way that we understand things I the way that we understand things I think it's more constructive to say the think it's more constructive to say the think it's more constructive to say the fact that I can talk about those things fact that I can talk about those things fact that I can talk about those things is telling me something about the is telling me something about the is telling me something about the structure of where I actually live and structure of where I actually live and structure of where I actually live and where I exist just because it's more where I exist just because it's more where I exist just because it's more constructive doesn't mean it's constructive doesn't mean it's constructive doesn't mean it's true well it may not be true it may be true well it may not be true it may be true well it may not be true it may be something that allows me to build better something that allows me to build better something that allows me to build better theories I can test to try to understand theories I can test to try to understand theories I can test to try to understand something objective and in the end something objective and in the end something objective and in the end that's a good way to get to the truth that's a good way to get to the truth that's a good way to get to the truth exactly even if you realiz I can't do exactly even if you realiz I can't do exactly even if you realiz I can't do experiment yeah so there's no such thing experiment yeah so there's no such thing experiment yeah so there's no such thing as experimental platonism but if you as experimental platonism but if you as experimental platonism but if you think math is an object that emerg in think math is an object that emerg in think math is an object that emerg in our biosphere you can start our biosphere you can start our biosphere you can start experimenting with that experimenting with that experimenting with that idea and that to me is really idea and that to me is really idea and that to me is really interesting like to think about well interesting like to think about well interesting like to think about well people I mean mathematicians do think people I mean mathematicians do think people I mean mathematicians do think about math sometimes as an experimental about math sometimes as an experimental about math sometimes as an experimental science but to think about math itself science but to think about math itself science but to think about math itself as a a a object for study by physicists as a a a object for study by physicists as a a a object for study by physicists rather than a tool physicists use to rather than a tool physicists use to rather than a tool physicists use to describe reality it becomes the part of

describe reality it becomes the part of describe reality it becomes the part of reality they're trying to describe to me reality they're trying to describe to me reality they're trying to describe to me is a deeply interesting inversion what is a deeply interesting inversion what is a deeply interesting inversion what to you is most beautiful to you is most beautiful to you is most beautiful about this kind of exploration of the about this kind of exploration of the about this kind of exploration of the physics of life that you've been doing physics of life that you've been doing physics of life that you've been doing um I love the way it makes me feel and then you have to try to convert feel and then you have to try to convert the feelings into visuals and the the feelings into visuals and the the feelings into visuals and the visuals into words yeah so I think I visuals into words yeah so I think I visuals into words yeah so I think I love um yeah I love the way it makes me love um yeah I love the way it makes me love um yeah I love the way it makes me feel to have feel to have feel to have ideas um that I think are ideas um that I think are ideas um that I think are novel and I think the the Dual side of novel and I think the the Dual side of novel and I think the the Dual side of that is the painful process of trying to that is the painful process of trying to that is the painful process of trying to communicate that with other human beings communicate that with other human beings communicate that with other human beings to test if they have any kind of reality to test if they have any kind of reality to test if they have any kind of reality to them uh and I also love that process to them uh and I also love that process to them uh and I also love that process I love trying to figure out how to I love trying to figure out how to I love trying to figure out how to explain really deep abstract things that explain really deep abstract things that explain really deep abstract things that I don't think that we understand I don't think that we understand I don't think that we understand and trying to understand them with other and trying to understand them with other and trying to understand them with other people and I also love the shock value people and I also love the shock value people and I also love the shock value of uh you like this kind of idea we were of uh you like this kind of idea we were of uh you like this kind of idea we were talking about before of like being on talking about before of like being on talking about before of like being on the boundary of like what we understand the boundary of like what we understand the boundary of like what we understand and so people can kind of see what and so people can kind of see what and so people can kind of see what you're seeing but they haven't ever saw you're seeing but they haven't ever saw you're seeing but they haven't ever saw it that way before and I I I love the it that way before and I I I love the it that way before and I I I love the shock value that like people have like shock value that like people have like shock value that like people have like that immediate moment of recognizing that immediate moment of recognizing that immediate moment of recognizing that there's something beyond the way that there's something beyond the way that there's something beyond the way that they thought about things before that they thought about things before that they thought about things before and being able to deliver that to people and being able to deliver that to people and being able to deliver that to people I think is one of the biggest Jo that I I think is one of the biggest Jo that I I think is one of the biggest Jo that I have is just like and maybe it's that have is just like and maybe it's that have is just like and maybe it's that sense of mystery like to share that sense of mystery like to share that sense of mystery like to share that there's something beyond the frontier of there's something beyond the frontier of there's something beyond the frontier of how we understand and we might be able how we understand and we might be able how we understand and we might be able to see it and you get to see the humans

to see it and you get to see the humans to see it and you get to see the humans transformed by a new idea yes and I transformed by a new idea yes and I transformed by a new idea yes and I think my my think my my think my my greatest wish in life is to somehow greatest wish in life is to somehow greatest wish in life is to somehow contribute to an idea that some that contribute to an idea that some that contribute to an idea that some that transforms the way that we think like transforms the way that we think like transforms the way that we think like you know I have my problem I want to you know I have my problem I want to you know I have my problem I want to solve but like the thing that gives me solve but like the thing that gives me solve but like the thing that gives me Joy about it is really changing Joy about it is really changing Joy about it is really changing something something something um and ideally getting to a deeper um and ideally getting to a deeper um and ideally getting to a deeper understanding of how the world works and understanding of how the world works and understanding of how the world works and what we what we what we are yeah I would say understanding life are yeah I would say understanding life are yeah I would say understanding life at a deep level yeah is uh probably one at a deep level yeah is uh probably one at a deep level yeah is uh probably one of the most exciting problems one of the of the most exciting problems one of the of the most exciting problems one of the most exciting most exciting most exciting questions um so I'm glad you're trying questions um so I'm glad you're trying questions um so I'm glad you're trying to answer just that and doing it in to answer just that and doing it in to answer just that and doing it in style it's the only way to do style it's the only way to do style it's the only way to do anything thank you so much for this in anything thank you so much for this in anything thank you so much for this in conversation thank you for being you conversation thank you for being you conversation thank you for being you Sarah this was awesome thanks Lex thanks Sarah this was awesome thanks Lex thanks Sarah this was awesome thanks Lex thanks for listening to this conversation with for listening to this conversation with for listening to this conversation with Sarah Walker to support this podcast Sarah Walker to support this podcast Sarah Walker to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the please check out our sponsors in the please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you description and now let me leave you description and now let me leave you with some words from Charles with some words from Charles with some words from Charles Darwin in the long history of humankind Darwin in the long history of humankind Darwin in the long history of humankind and animal kind too those who learn to and animal kind too those who learn to and animal kind too those who learn to collaborate and improvise most collaborate and improvise most collaborate and improvise most effectively have effectively have effectively have prevailed thank you for listening and prevailed thank you for listening and prevailed thank you for listening and hope to see you next time