Chris Voss: FBI Hostage Negotiator | Lex Fridman Podcast #364

a crazy thing in the kidnap business a crazy thing in the kidnap business we used to get asked by FBI leadership we used to get asked by FBI leadership we used to get asked by FBI leadership when is this going to be over when is this going to be over when is this going to be over and the answer would be when the bad and the answer would be when the bad and the answer would be when the bad guys feel like they've gotten everything guys feel like they've gotten everything guys feel like they've gotten everything they can now dissecting that statement they can now dissecting that statement they can now dissecting that statement you're talking about when they feel you're talking about when they feel you're talking about when they feel like they got everything they can so the like they got everything they can so the like they got everything they can so the key to kidnapping negotiations are the key to kidnapping negotiations are the key to kidnapping negotiations are the feelings of the bad guys we're talking feelings of the bad guys we're talking feelings of the bad guys we're talking about feelings kidnappers feelings about feelings kidnappers feelings about feelings kidnappers feelings which drives everything doesn't matter which drives everything doesn't matter which drives everything doesn't matter what human endeavor it is the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with Chris Voss former FBI hostage and crisis Chris Voss former FBI hostage and crisis Chris Voss former FBI hostage and crisis negotiator and author of never split the negotiator and author of never split the negotiator and author of never split the difference negotiating as if your life difference negotiating as if your life difference negotiating as if your life depended on it depended on it depended on it this is a Lex Friedman podcast to this is a Lex Friedman podcast to this is a Lex Friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's Chris Voss here's Chris Voss here's Chris Voss what is it like negotiating for a what is it like negotiating for a what is it like negotiating for a hostage with a kidnapper what is the hostage with a kidnapper what is the hostage with a kidnapper what is the toughest part of that process toughest part of that process toughest part of that process the toughest part is if it looks bad the toughest part is if it looks bad the toughest part is if it looks bad from the beginning from the beginning from the beginning and you gotta engage in a process anyway and you gotta engage in a process anyway and you gotta engage in a process anyway what are the factors that make it bad what are the factors that make it bad what are the factors that make it bad well that that makes you nervous that if well that that makes you nervous that if well that that makes you nervous that if you're an observer situation where you're an observer situation where you're an observer situation where there's General negotiation or it's a there's General negotiation or it's a there's General negotiation or it's a hostage negotiation hostage negotiation hostage negotiation what makes you think that this is going what makes you think that this is going what makes you think that this is going to be difficult to be difficult to be difficult if they want to make it look like if they want to make it look like if they want to make it look like they're negotiating but they're not like they're negotiating but they're not like they're negotiating but they're not like in a 2004 time frame in a 2004 time frame in a 2004 time frame um Al Qaeda in Iraq was executing people

um Al Qaeda in Iraq was executing people um Al Qaeda in Iraq was executing people on camera for the publicity on camera for the publicity on camera for the publicity and they wanted to make it look like and they wanted to make it look like and they wanted to make it look like they were negotiating they were negotiating they were negotiating so they'd come on and they say if you so they'd come on and they say if you so they'd come on and they say if you don't get all the women out of Iraqi don't get all the women out of Iraqi don't get all the women out of Iraqi women out of the the jails in Iraq in 72 women out of the the jails in Iraq in 72 women out of the the jails in Iraq in 72 hours we're going to kill a hostage hours we're going to kill a hostage hours we're going to kill a hostage that was one of the demands in one of that was one of the demands in one of that was one of the demands in one of the cases in that time frame the cases in that time frame the cases in that time frame now first of all even if we'd have been now first of all even if we'd have been now first of all even if we'd have been willing the US government Coalition willing the US government Coalition willing the US government Coalition would have been willing to do that it would have been willing to do that it would have been willing to do that it wouldn't be able to happen in 72 hours wouldn't be able to happen in 72 hours wouldn't be able to happen in 72 hours so is it an impossible ask from the so is it an impossible ask from the so is it an impossible ask from the beginning beginning beginning and so then then that looks really bad and so then then that looks really bad and so then then that looks really bad like they're they're trying to make it like they're they're trying to make it like they're they're trying to make it they're trying to make it look like they're trying to make it look like they're trying to make it look like they're talking reasonably and but they're talking reasonably and but they're talking reasonably and but they're not so your hostage is in bad they're not so your hostage is in bad they're not so your hostage is in bad shape there if they've made a demand shape there if they've made a demand shape there if they've made a demand that you just even if you wanted to do that you just even if you wanted to do that you just even if you wanted to do you couldn't do so then what makes that you couldn't do so then what makes that you couldn't do so then what makes that very difficult is in kidnappings very difficult is in kidnappings very difficult is in kidnappings especially especially especially you're working with family members you're working with family members you're working with family members you're coaching people you're coaching people you're coaching people bad guys are in touch with family bad guys are in touch with family bad guys are in touch with family members or if they're not directly in members or if they're not directly in members or if they're not directly in touch with family members the other touch with family members the other touch with family members the other thing that Al Qaeda was doing at that thing that Al Qaeda was doing at that thing that Al Qaeda was doing at that time was they didn't give us a way to time was they didn't give us a way to time was they didn't give us a way to talk to them they make they're making talk to them they make they're making talk to them they make they're making statements in the media statements in the media statements in the media but then not leaving their phone number but then not leaving their phone number but then not leaving their phone number if you will yeah so that's one more if you will yeah so that's one more if you will yeah so that's one more thing like they're intentionally thing like they're intentionally thing like they're intentionally blocking you they're asking you to do blocking you they're asking you to do blocking you they're asking you to do something you can't do something you can't do something you can't do they're not giving you a way to talk to they're not giving you a way to talk to they're not giving you a way to talk to them them them so you gotta get with the family and so you gotta get with the family and so you gotta get with the family and discuss with the family how you can discuss with the family how you can discuss with the family how you can approach things now the family approach things now the family approach things now the family definitely wants to know is this going definitely wants to know is this going definitely wants to know is this going to help there's a bunch of cases like to help there's a bunch of cases like to help there's a bunch of cases like that in that time frame that in that time frame that in that time frame and you got to be honest with them it's

and you got to be honest with them it's and you got to be honest with them it's a long shot our chances here are slim a long shot our chances here are slim a long shot our chances here are slim and none and when it's slim and none and none and when it's slim and none and none and when it's slim and none it'll take slim but it's still very very it'll take slim but it's still very very it'll take slim but it's still very very slim slim slim and there were a number of people that and there were a number of people that and there were a number of people that were killed in that time frame before were killed in that time frame before were killed in that time frame before the tide finally got turned and it was the tide finally got turned and it was the tide finally got turned and it was it was hard dealing with the families at it was hard dealing with the families at it was hard dealing with the families at the time can you negotiate in public the time can you negotiate in public the time can you negotiate in public versus like a direct channel in private versus like a direct channel in private versus like a direct channel in private oh yeah bad guys pick the media oh yeah bad guys pick the media oh yeah bad guys pick the media they're making statements in the media they're making statements in the media they're making statements in the media so and that's a big clue they're they're so and that's a big clue they're they're so and that's a big clue they're they're chant their channel of choice chant their channel of choice chant their channel of choice tells you an awful lot and if they're tells you an awful lot and if they're tells you an awful lot and if they're choosing the media then that means choosing the media then that means choosing the media then that means there's people are trying to appeal to there's people are trying to appeal to there's people are trying to appeal to that means in their view there's such a that means in their view there's such a that means in their view there's such a thing as good media so if there's good thing as good media so if there's good thing as good media so if there's good media there's bad media how do you make media there's bad media how do you make media there's bad media how do you make it bad and we made it bad for them it it bad and we made it bad for them it it bad and we made it bad for them it just unfortunately it had to go through just unfortunately it had to go through just unfortunately it had to go through a number of iterations before they got a number of iterations before they got a number of iterations before they got the message and quit the message and quit the message and quit in that negotiation do you in that negotiation do you in that negotiation do you think about the value of human life is think about the value of human life is think about the value of human life is there a Dollar figure is there how do there a Dollar figure is there how do there a Dollar figure is there how do you uh enumerate not enumerate quantify you uh enumerate not enumerate quantify you uh enumerate not enumerate quantify the value of human life yeah that's uh the value of human life yeah that's uh the value of human life yeah that's uh it's like Beauty Cindy had a beholder it's like Beauty Cindy had a beholder it's like Beauty Cindy had a beholder so that was the first lesson on any so that was the first lesson on any so that was the first lesson on any hostage negotiation really any hostage negotiation really any hostage negotiation really any negotiation like it doesn't matter what negotiation like it doesn't matter what negotiation like it doesn't matter what it is to you matters what it is to the it is to you matters what it is to the it is to you matters what it is to the other side one of the things especially other side one of the things especially other side one of the things especially in your in your conversation I listened in your in your conversation I listened in your in your conversation I listened to with that Andrew to with that Andrew to with that Andrew um by the way you guys uh I I another um by the way you guys uh I I another um by the way you guys uh I I another thing I really liked about that thing I really liked about that thing I really liked about that conversation first of all I think the conversation first of all I think the conversation first of all I think the world of him Andrew huberman yeah Andrew world of him Andrew huberman yeah Andrew world of him Andrew huberman yeah Andrew Ewan and uh You released it on my

Ewan and uh You released it on my Ewan and uh You released it on my birthday I appreciate that that was a birthday I appreciate that that was a birthday I appreciate that that was a nice birthday perfectly just for you nice birthday perfectly just for you nice birthday perfectly just for you yeah yeah nice job thank you yeah yeah nice job thank you yeah yeah nice job thank you but uh empathy is in the eye of the but uh empathy is in the eye of the but uh empathy is in the eye of the beholder uh in every negotiation whether beholder uh in every negotiation whether beholder uh in every negotiation whether it's over car a house it's over car a house it's over car a house collaboration in your company with the collaboration in your company with the collaboration in your company with the bad guys how does the other side see it bad guys how does the other side see it bad guys how does the other side see it now the nice thing about kidnapping for now the nice thing about kidnapping for now the nice thing about kidnapping for ransom if they're if there's an actual ransom if they're if there's an actual ransom if they're if there's an actual Ransom demand it's an actual demand Ransom demand it's an actual demand Ransom demand it's an actual demand is it's a mercenary's business they're is it's a mercenary's business they're is it's a mercenary's business they're gonna take what they could get and they gonna take what they could get and they gonna take what they could get and they tend to be really good tend to be really good tend to be really good at figuring out how much money somebody at figuring out how much money somebody at figuring out how much money somebody has so has so has so and again I'll keep drawing business and again I'll keep drawing business and again I'll keep drawing business analogies analogies analogies you're looking for a job with an you're looking for a job with an you're looking for a job with an employer employer employer there's a market price of the job there's a market price of the job there's a market price of the job and then there's what the employer can and then there's what the employer can and then there's what the employer can pay you pay you pay you now maybe the market price of the job now maybe the market price of the job now maybe the market price of the job Market's 150 Grand employer can pay 120.

Market's 150 Grand employer can pay 120. Market's 150 Grand employer can pay 120. but it's a great job you know we're but it's a great job you know we're but it's a great job you know we're talking about Elon uh a minute ago talking about Elon uh a minute ago talking about Elon uh a minute ago like I'd work minimum wage to follow him like I'd work minimum wage to follow him like I'd work minimum wage to follow him around yeah you know that would be worth around yeah you know that would be worth around yeah you know that would be worth it what are the value other than the it what are the value other than the it what are the value other than the dollars and how hard is it to get the dollars and how hard is it to get the dollars and how hard is it to get the dollars and how quickly can you get to dollars and how quickly can you get to dollars and how quickly can you get to them them them those these are all things that the bad those these are all things that the bad those these are all things that the bad guys are good and kidnapping are good at guys are good and kidnapping are good at guys are good and kidnapping are good at figuring out so figuring out so figuring out so the value of human life to them is going the value of human life to them is going the value of human life to them is going to be what can they get a crazy thing in to be what can they get a crazy thing in to be what can they get a crazy thing in the kidnap business the kidnap business the kidnap business we used to get asked by FBI leadership we used to get asked by FBI leadership we used to get asked by FBI leadership when is this going to be over when is this going to be over when is this going to be over NES would be when the bad guys feel like NES would be when the bad guys feel like NES would be when the bad guys feel like they've gotten everything they can now they've gotten everything they can now they've gotten everything they can now dissecting that statement dissecting that statement dissecting that statement you're talking about when they feel you're talking about when they feel you're talking about when they feel like they got everything they can so the like they got everything they can so the like they got everything they can so the key to kidnapping negotiations are the key to kidnapping negotiations are the key to kidnapping negotiations are the feelings of the bad guys we're talking feelings of the bad guys we're talking feelings of the bad guys we're talking about feelings kidnappers feelings about feelings kidnappers feelings about feelings kidnappers feelings which drives everything doesn't matter which drives everything doesn't matter which drives everything doesn't matter what human endeavor it is what human endeavor it is what human endeavor it is so it's not reason it's emotion so it's not reason it's emotion so it's not reason it's emotion there's no such thing as reason there's no such thing as reason there's no such thing as reason I should say for a little bit of context I should say for a little bit of context I should say for a little bit of context I just talked uh yesterday with a guy I just talked uh yesterday with a guy I just talked uh yesterday with a guy named Sam Harris yeah I don't know if named Sam Harris yeah I don't know if named Sam Harris yeah I don't know if you know Sam but Sam and because I Was you know Sam but Sam and because I Was you know Sam but Sam and because I Was preparing for a conversation with you I preparing for a conversation with you I preparing for a conversation with you I talked to him about empathy versus talked to him about empathy versus talked to him about empathy versus reason and he lands heavily on reason

reason and he lands heavily on reason reason and he lands heavily on reason yeah empathy is uh somewhere between yeah empathy is uh somewhere between yeah empathy is uh somewhere between useless and erroneous and leaves you useless and erroneous and leaves you useless and erroneous and leaves you astray and is not effective that reason astray and is not effective that reason astray and is not effective that reason is the only way uh forward well it's is the only way uh forward well it's is the only way uh forward well it's draw some fine lines there and the Two draw some fine lines there and the Two draw some fine lines there and the Two Fine Lines I would draw is uh first what Fine Lines I would draw is uh first what Fine Lines I would draw is uh first what is your definition of empathy and then is your definition of empathy and then is your definition of empathy and then secondly secondly secondly uh how do people actually make up their uh how do people actually make up their uh how do people actually make up their minds and I'm and I'm going to flip it minds and I'm and I'm going to flip it minds and I'm and I'm going to flip it I'm going to go with how people make up I'm going to go with how people make up I'm going to go with how people make up their minds you make up your mind based their minds you make up your mind based their minds you make up your mind based on what you care about on what you care about on what you care about period period period that makes that makes that makes reason emotion based reason emotion based reason emotion based what do you care about you start with what do you care about you start with what do you care about you start with what you care about you see some guy what you care about you see some guy what you care about you see some guy swimming out in off the coast of the swimming out in off the coast of the swimming out in off the coast of the ocean and you see a shark coming up ocean and you see a shark coming up ocean and you see a shark coming up behind him behind him behind him who are you cheering for who are you cheering for who are you cheering for if it's Adolf Hitler out there you're if it's Adolf Hitler out there you're if it's Adolf Hitler out there you're cheering for the shark you might cheering for the shark you might cheering for the shark you might actually feel bad for shark because it's actually feel bad for shark because it's actually feel bad for shark because it's gonna it's gonna taste bad gonna it's gonna taste bad gonna it's gonna taste bad who do you care about you mean the human who do you care about you mean the human who do you care about you mean the human will taste bad yeah you you know if he will taste bad yeah you you know if he will taste bad yeah you you know if he eats Adolf Hitler you know they're gonna eats Adolf Hitler you know they're gonna eats Adolf Hitler you know they're gonna leave a bad taste in your mouth even if leave a bad taste in your mouth even if leave a bad taste in your mouth even if you're a shark you're a shark you're a shark so you're making up your mind on every so you're making up your mind on every so you're making up your mind on every circumstance it's based on what you care circumstance it's based on what you care circumstance it's based on what you care about yeah so then what does that do to about yeah so then what does that do to about yeah so then what does that do to reason your reason is based on what you reason your reason is based on what you reason your reason is based on what you care about from the beginning care about from the beginning care about from the beginning now then empathy now then empathy now then empathy if you define it as sympathy which it if you define it as sympathy which it if you define it as sympathy which it was never meant to be sympathy ever was never meant to be sympathy ever was never meant to be sympathy ever you know I uh you know I uh you know I uh etymology I think is the word I keep etymology I think is the word I keep etymology I think is the word I keep getting etymology and entomology mixed getting etymology and entomology mixed getting etymology and entomology mixed up etymology being right the the where

up etymology being right the the where up etymology being right the the where words came from the origin entomology words came from the origin entomology words came from the origin entomology being bugs being bugs being bugs I got it right so I got it right so I got it right so I like etymology where did something I like etymology where did something I like etymology where did something come from also like entomology anyway uh come from also like entomology anyway uh come from also like entomology anyway uh etymology the orig my understanding from etymology the orig my understanding from etymology the orig my understanding from my research my research my research uh the original definition of empathy uh the original definition of empathy uh the original definition of empathy was an interpretation of a German Ward was an interpretation of a German Ward was an interpretation of a German Ward where people were trying to figure out where people were trying to figure out where people were trying to figure out what the artist was trying to convey it what the artist was trying to convey it what the artist was trying to convey it was about assessing art was about assessing art was about assessing art and so it was always about understanding and so it was always about understanding and so it was always about understanding where somebody was coming from but not where somebody was coming from but not where somebody was coming from but not sharing necessarily sharing necessarily sharing necessarily the same thing the same thing the same thing so then when I was with the FBI and I so then when I was with the FBI and I so then when I was with the FBI and I first started collaborating with Harvard first started collaborating with Harvard first started collaborating with Harvard Bob manukan wrote a book Bob manukan wrote a book Bob manukan wrote a book Beyond winning second chapters the Beyond winning second chapters the Beyond winning second chapters the tension between empathy and tension between empathy and tension between empathy and assertiveness assertiveness assertiveness still the best chapter on empathy I've still the best chapter on empathy I've still the best chapter on empathy I've ever read anywhere ever read anywhere ever read anywhere and Bob wrightson's book Bob was the and Bob wrightson's book Bob was the and Bob wrightson's book Bob was the head of the program on negotiation he's head of the program on negotiation he's head of the program on negotiation he's also agreed to be interviewed for a also agreed to be interviewed for a also agreed to be interviewed for a documentary uh that about me and my documentary uh that about me and my documentary uh that about me and my company company company that hasn't been released yet but it that hasn't been released yet but it that hasn't been released yet but it should be released sometime this year should be released sometime this year should be released sometime this year what's the name of the documentary what's the name of the documentary what's the name of the documentary tactical empathy good name tactical empathy good name tactical empathy good name so Bob's definition of empathy and said so Bob's definition of empathy and said so Bob's definition of empathy and said not agreeing not agreeing not agreeing or even liking the other side or even liking the other side or even liking the other side don't even gotta like them don't gotta don't even gotta like them don't gotta don't even gotta like them don't gotta agree with them just straight agree with them just straight agree with them just straight understanding where they're coming from understanding where they're coming from understanding where they're coming from and articulating it which requires no and articulating it which requires no and articulating it which requires no agreement whatsoever

agreement whatsoever agreement whatsoever that becomes a very powerful tool like that becomes a very powerful tool like that becomes a very powerful tool like ridiculously powerful and if it if ridiculously powerful and if it if ridiculously powerful and if it if sympathy or Compassion or agreement are sympathy or Compassion or agreement are sympathy or Compassion or agreement are not included you can be empathic with not included you can be empathic with not included you can be empathic with anybody I was thinking about this uh anybody I was thinking about this uh anybody I was thinking about this uh when I was getting ready to sit down and when I was getting ready to sit down and when I was getting ready to sit down and talk to you because you use the word talk to you because you use the word talk to you because you use the word empathy a lot empathy a lot empathy a lot um potent um potent um potent I can be empathic with Putin easy it's I can be empathic with Putin easy it's I can be empathic with Putin easy it's easy easy easy I don't agree with where he's coming I don't agree with where he's coming I don't agree with where he's coming from I don't uh agree with this from I don't uh agree with this from I don't uh agree with this methodology methodology methodology early on the Ukraine Russian war early on the Ukraine Russian war early on the Ukraine Russian war I saw an article that was very I saw an article that was very I saw an article that was very dismissive of Russia dismissive of Russia dismissive of Russia that said Russia is basically Europe's that said Russia is basically Europe's that said Russia is basically Europe's gas station gas station gas station and I thought all right and I thought all right and I thought all right so if you're in charge so if you're in charge so if you're in charge and the way you feed your people and the way you feed your people and the way you feed your people is via an industry that the entire world is via an industry that the entire world is via an industry that the entire world is trying to quit is trying to quit is trying to quit the whole world is trying to get out of the whole world is trying to get out of the whole world is trying to get out of fossil fuels but that's how you feed fossil fuels but that's how you feed fossil fuels but that's how you feed your people if you don't come up with an your people if you don't come up with an your people if you don't come up with an answer to that the people that you've answer to that the people that you've answer to that the people that you've taken the responsibility for are going taken the responsibility for are going taken the responsibility for are going to die alone in the colds in the dark to die alone in the colds in the dark to die alone in the colds in the dark they're going to freeze and they're they're going to freeze and they're they're going to freeze and they're gonna die gonna die gonna die all right so that doesn't mean that I all right so that doesn't mean that I all right so that doesn't mean that I agree with where it's coming from or any agree with where it's coming from or any agree with where it's coming from or any of his means of his means of his means but where where is how does this guy see but where where is how does this guy see but where where is how does this guy see things in his distorted word things in his distorted word things in his distorted word you're never going to get through to you're never going to get through to you're never going to get through to somebody like that in a conversation somebody like that in a conversation somebody like that in a conversation unless you can demonstrate to them you unless you can demonstrate to them you unless you can demonstrate to them you understand where they're coming from understand where they're coming from understand where they're coming from whether or not you agree

whether or not you agree whether or not you agree early 90s last century I'm a last early 90s last century I'm a last early 90s last century I'm a last century guy I'm an old dude century guy I'm an old dude century guy I'm an old dude I refer to myself as a last century guy I refer to myself as a last century guy I refer to myself as a last century guy also a deeply flawed human yeah also a deeply flawed human yeah also a deeply flawed human yeah so so so um um um Tara's case New York City Tara's case New York City Tara's case New York City civilian Court terrorism does not have civilian Court terrorism does not have civilian Court terrorism does not have to be tried in military tribunals that's to be tried in military tribunals that's to be tried in military tribunals that's a very bad idea it was always bad a very bad idea it was always bad a very bad idea it was always bad the FBI was always against it the FBI was always against it the FBI was always against it I'm getting ready we have Muslims I'm getting ready we have Muslims I'm getting ready we have Muslims testifying in open court against the testifying in open court against the testifying in open court against the legitimate Muslim cleric legitimate Muslim cleric legitimate Muslim cleric the guy that was on trial the guy that was on trial the guy that was on trial had the credentials as a legitimate had the credentials as a legitimate had the credentials as a legitimate Muslim cleric the people who were Muslim cleric the people who were Muslim cleric the people who were testifying against them testifying against them testifying against them didn't think you should be advocating didn't think you should be advocating didn't think you should be advocating murder of innocent people murder of innocent people murder of innocent people we'd sit down with them Arab Muslims we'd sit down with them Arab Muslims we'd sit down with them Arab Muslims Egyptians mostly Egyptians mostly Egyptians mostly and I would say to them and I would say to them and I would say to them you believe that there's been a you believe that there's been a you believe that there's been a succession of American governments for succession of American governments for succession of American governments for the last 200 years that are anti-islamic the last 200 years that are anti-islamic the last 200 years that are anti-islamic and they'd shake their head and go and they'd shake their head and go and they'd shake their head and go yeah yeah yeah and that be the start of the and that be the start of the and that be the start of the conversation that's empathy conversation that's empathy conversation that's empathy you believe this to be the case I never you believe this to be the case I never you believe this to be the case I never said I agreed I never said I disagreed said I agreed I never said I disagreed said I agreed I never said I disagreed but I showed him that I wasn't afraid of but I showed him that I wasn't afraid of but I showed him that I wasn't afraid of their beliefs I was so unafraid of them their beliefs I was so unafraid of them their beliefs I was so unafraid of them that I was willing to just State them that I was willing to just State them that I was willing to just State them and not disagree or contradict because I and not disagree or contradict because I and not disagree or contradict because I I would say that and then I'd shut up I would say that and then I'd shut up I would say that and then I'd shut up and let him react and I never had to say and let him react and I never had to say and let him react and I never had to say here's why you're wrong I never gave my

here's why you're wrong I never gave my here's why you're wrong I never gave my point of view point of view point of view every single one of them that testified every single one of them that testified every single one of them that testified that's empathy not agreeing with where that's empathy not agreeing with where that's empathy not agreeing with where the other side is coming from the other side is coming from the other side is coming from now I'm not sure how Sam would define it now I'm not sure how Sam would define it now I'm not sure how Sam would define it but common vernacular is its sympathy but common vernacular is its sympathy but common vernacular is its sympathy and its compassion and that's when it and its compassion and that's when it and its compassion and that's when it becomes useless becomes useless becomes useless and there is a gray area maybe you can and there is a gray area maybe you can and there is a gray area maybe you can comment on it is sometimes a drop of comment on it is sometimes a drop of comment on it is sometimes a drop of compassion compassion compassion helps make that empathy more effective helps make that empathy more effective helps make that empathy more effective in the conversation in the conversation in the conversation so you're just saying you believe so you're just saying you believe so you're just saying you believe X doesn't quite form a strong of a bond doesn't quite form a strong of a bond with the other person with the other person with the other person you're imagining it doesn't maybe you're you're imagining it doesn't maybe you're you're imagining it doesn't maybe you're right yes I'm imagining it doesn't I'm right yes I'm imagining it doesn't I'm right yes I'm imagining it doesn't I'm imagining you need to show that you're imagining you need to show that you're imagining you need to show that you're on the same side on the same side on the same side that you're but you you need to Signal a that you're but you you need to Signal a that you're but you you need to Signal a little bit about your actual beliefs at little bit about your actual beliefs at little bit about your actual beliefs at least in that moment even if those that least in that moment even if those that least in that moment even if those that signaling is a is uh signaling is a is uh signaling is a is uh not as deep as it sounds but at first not as deep as it sounds but at first not as deep as it sounds but at first you know basically petting the person on you know basically petting the person on you know basically petting the person on the back and saying we're on the same the back and saying we're on the same the back and saying we're on the same side brother you know that's that's what side brother you know that's that's what side brother you know that's that's what most people most people most people when they're really learning the concept when they're really learning the concept when they're really learning the concept that's the basic human reaction yeah and that's the basic human reaction yeah and that's the basic human reaction yeah and in application especially in highly in application especially in highly in application especially in highly adversarial situations adversarial situations adversarial situations like like like I I need I need a regular guy Muslim but I I need I need a regular guy Muslim but I I need I need a regular guy Muslim but how's that guy gonna say buy it if I

how's that guy gonna say buy it if I how's that guy gonna say buy it if I like you know do it I'm on your side like you know do it I'm on your side like you know do it I'm on your side I've been there I feel you no no no no I've been there I feel you no no no no I've been there I feel you no no no no no no no people get conned by that so much like people get conned by that so much like people get conned by that so much like if we're on opposite sides of the table if we're on opposite sides of the table if we're on opposite sides of the table and I try to act like I'm not on the and I try to act like I'm not on the and I try to act like I'm not on the opposite side of the table that makes me opposite side of the table that makes me opposite side of the table that makes me disingenuous disingenuous disingenuous so so so I would rather I would rather I would rather be honest my you know my currency is be honest my you know my currency is be honest my you know my currency is integrity integrity integrity and at some point in time if you go like and at some point in time if you go like and at some point in time if you go like you know where I'm coming from my answer you know where I'm coming from my answer you know where I'm coming from my answer is going to be like look is going to be like look is going to be like look I can agree on maybe where we're going I can agree on maybe where we're going I can agree on maybe where we're going but if we're talking about you know am I but if we're talking about you know am I but if we're talking about you know am I on your side now as a human being I want on your side now as a human being I want on your side now as a human being I want to see you survive and thrive not at my to see you survive and thrive not at my to see you survive and thrive not at my expense expense expense I think the world is full of opportunity I think the world is full of opportunity I think the world is full of opportunity I'm optimistic and again more than I'm optimistic and again more than I'm optimistic and again more than enough reason for saying that enough reason for saying that enough reason for saying that is enough for you for both of us is enough for you for both of us is enough for you for both of us so I got no problem with you getting so I got no problem with you getting so I got no problem with you getting yours yours yours you know just don't take it out of my you know just don't take it out of my you know just don't take it out of my head and I'm going to be honest about it head and I'm going to be honest about it head and I'm going to be honest about it about both of those things I'm not about both of those things I'm not about both of those things I'm not interested in you taking it out of my interested in you taking it out of my interested in you taking it out of my hide I think there's plenty here for hide I think there's plenty here for hide I think there's plenty here for both of us now I don't I don't need to both of us now I don't I don't need to both of us now I don't I don't need to be on your side except in a in a human be on your side except in a in a human be on your side except in a in a human sense but I don't do I have to side with sense but I don't do I have to side with sense but I don't do I have to side with you of the war no or you of the war no or you of the war no or the Howard Distributing the stock or how the Howard Distributing the stock or how the Howard Distributing the stock or how much you get paid or how much you make much you get paid or how much you make much you get paid or how much you make off this car off this car off this car I think people my experience as a Layman I think people my experience as a Layman I think people my experience as a Layman um is that empathy is not got a downside

um is that empathy is not got a downside um is that empathy is not got a downside that you don't you don't need me that you don't you don't need me that you don't you don't need me to act like I'm on your side for us to to act like I'm on your side for us to to act like I'm on your side for us to make a great deal make a great deal make a great deal great deal well we'll talk about two great deal well we'll talk about two great deal well we'll talk about two things a great deal and a great things a great deal and a great things a great deal and a great conversation right they're usually conversation right they're usually conversation right they're usually they're often going to be the same thing they're often going to be the same thing they're often going to be the same thing but at times they're going to be but at times they're going to be but at times they're going to be different that's a you mentioned different that's a you mentioned different that's a you mentioned Vladimir Putin there is some zoom level Vladimir Putin there is some zoom level Vladimir Putin there is some zoom level at which you do want to say we're on the at which you do want to say we're on the at which you do want to say we're on the same side you said the human level it's same side you said the human level it's same side you said the human level it's possible to say kind of zoom out possible to say kind of zoom out possible to say kind of zoom out and say that we're all in this together and say that we're all in this together and say that we're all in this together not we Slavic people we Europeans we but not we Slavic people we Europeans we but not we Slavic people we Europeans we but we human beings we're on the same Planet we human beings we're on the same Planet we human beings we're on the same Planet same planet right same planet right same planet right several years ago and his name is several years ago and his name is several years ago and his name is evidently been mud now evidently been mud now evidently been mud now um but he was very nice to me a lawyer um but he was very nice to me a lawyer um but he was very nice to me a lawyer here in town named Tom Girardi and no here in town named Tom Girardi and no here in town named Tom Girardi and no shortage of bad reporting on him now I shortage of bad reporting on him now I shortage of bad reporting on him now I have absolutely no idea if any of it's have absolutely no idea if any of it's have absolutely no idea if any of it's true I do know that in my interaction true I do know that in my interaction true I do know that in my interaction with him he was always a gentleman to me with him he was always a gentleman to me with him he was always a gentleman to me and was very generous and was very generous and was very generous um when he'd get into conversations with um when he'd get into conversations with um when he'd get into conversations with people he'd always say like you know people he'd always say like you know people he'd always say like you know let's look at 10 years from now let's look at 10 years from now let's look at 10 years from now where we could both be in a phenomenal where we could both be in a phenomenal where we could both be in a phenomenal place together place together place together now let's work our way back from there now let's work our way back from there now let's work our way back from there that's a good line yeah and then you that's a good line yeah and then you that's a good line yeah and then you know I saw him do it in simulations he I know I saw him do it in simulations he I know I saw him do it in simulations he I was teaching the USC was teaching the USC was teaching the USC we are to function together we are to function together we are to function together and a Gentleman uh at that time told me

and a Gentleman uh at that time told me and a Gentleman uh at that time told me that that who he was and it was really that that who he was and it was really that that who he was and it was really influential so I walked up to the guy influential so I walked up to the guy influential so I walked up to the guy cold and I said hey you know I'm gonna cold and I said hey you know I'm gonna cold and I said hey you know I'm gonna come in and talking to my class at USC come in and talking to my class at USC come in and talking to my class at USC he didn't know me other than the fact he didn't know me other than the fact he didn't know me other than the fact that we had mutual acquaintance and he that we had mutual acquaintance and he that we had mutual acquaintance and he graciously consented to come in graciously consented to come in graciously consented to come in and he said what do you want me to talk and he said what do you want me to talk and he said what do you want me to talk about I said look dude just from your about I said look dude just from your about I said look dude just from your success here it doesn't matter what you success here it doesn't matter what you success here it doesn't matter what you talk about talk about talk about you know either I'm going to agree or you know either I'm going to agree or you know either I'm going to agree or I'm going to disagree or I'm going to I'm going to disagree or I'm going to I'm going to disagree or I'm going to learn from it my students are going to learn from it my students are going to learn from it my students are going to learn from it so students want to role learn from it so students want to role learn from it so students want to role play with them you know they dispute and play with them you know they dispute and play with them you know they dispute and let's do a negotiation every single time let's do a negotiation every single time let's do a negotiation every single time you go to pick a point in the future you go to pick a point in the future you go to pick a point in the future where we're both happy where we're both happy where we're both happy 10 years 20 years from now and let's 10 years 20 years from now and let's 10 years 20 years from now and let's work our way back not a hostage work our way back not a hostage work our way back not a hostage negotiator same thing negotiator same thing negotiator same thing I call into a bank I call into a bank I call into a bank bad guy picks up on the picks up on the bad guy picks up on the picks up on the bad guy picks up on the picks up on the phone phone phone and I'm gonna say I want you to live and I'm gonna say I want you to live and I'm gonna say I want you to live you know I want to see you survive this you know I want to see you survive this you know I want to see you survive this you know whatever else goes with that you know whatever else goes with that you know whatever else goes with that let's pick a point in the future that let's pick a point in the future that let's pick a point in the future that we're both good with we're both good with we're both good with and then we work our way back and people and then we work our way back and people and then we work our way back and people make also make also make also um we're talking before about emotion um we're talking before about emotion um we're talking before about emotion and what you care about and what you care about and what you care about people make their decisions based on people make their decisions based on people make their decisions based on their vision of the future their vision of the future their vision of the future like without question yeah uh there's a like without question yeah uh there's a like without question yeah uh there's a I think there's a Hindu temple in the I think there's a Hindu temple in the I think there's a Hindu temple in the United States United States United States being a has been or being assembled same being a has been or being assembled same being a has been or being assembled same way that the Hindu temples were in India way that the Hindu temples were in India way that the Hindu temples were in India A Thousand Years Ago by hand volunteers A Thousand Years Ago by hand volunteers A Thousand Years Ago by hand volunteers by hand

by hand by hand that these people are knocking that these people are knocking that these people are knocking themselves out for a place in Paradise a themselves out for a place in Paradise a themselves out for a place in Paradise a vision of the future what you will go vision of the future what you will go vision of the future what you will go through today if the future through today if the future through today if the future portends uh what you want you you'll go portends uh what you want you you'll go portends uh what you want you you'll go through incredible things today so it's through incredible things today so it's through incredible things today so it's a vision of the future a vision of the future a vision of the future so you have to try to paint a a vision so you have to try to paint a a vision so you have to try to paint a a vision of the future that the uh the person of the future that the uh the person of the future that the uh the person you're negotiating with will like you're negotiating with will like you're negotiating with will like just tough to do let's find out what just tough to do let's find out what just tough to do let's find out what their vision of the future is and then their vision of the future is and then their vision of the future is and then remove yourself as a threat sure you remove yourself as a threat sure you remove yourself as a threat sure you know if we can collaborate together know if we can collaborate together know if we can collaborate together at all if you think that I could do at all if you think that I could do at all if you think that I could do anything at all to help you anything at all to help you anything at all to help you to that point and you know Integrity is to that point and you know Integrity is to that point and you know Integrity is my currency my currency my currency I'm not gonna lie to you which gets back I'm not gonna lie to you which gets back I'm not gonna lie to you which gets back before that I lied to you about whether before that I lied to you about whether before that I lied to you about whether or not I'm on your side you know right or not I'm on your side you know right or not I'm on your side you know right now not at the moment we're on opposite now not at the moment we're on opposite now not at the moment we're on opposite size defense size defense size defense that's not going to stop us from being that's not going to stop us from being that's not going to stop us from being together in the future together in the future together in the future inside you're going to say wow well you inside you're going to say wow well you inside you're going to say wow well you didn't lie to me about today maybe you didn't lie to me about today maybe you didn't lie to me about today maybe you won't lie to me about tomorrow won't lie to me about tomorrow won't lie to me about tomorrow so going back to world leaders for so going back to world leaders for so going back to world leaders for example whether it's uh Vladimir example whether it's uh Vladimir example whether it's uh Vladimir zolenski or Vladimir Putin you don't zolenski or Vladimir Putin you don't zolenski or Vladimir Putin you don't think it closes off their mind to show think it closes off their mind to show think it closes off their mind to show that that that you have a different opinion you have a different opinion you have a different opinion depending upon when you showed it is depending upon when you showed it is depending upon when you showed it is that is are you arguing from the that is are you arguing from the that is are you arguing from the beginning or are you displaying beginning or are you displaying beginning or are you displaying understanding from the beginning I don't understanding from the beginning I don't understanding from the beginning I don't think it stops you from being think it stops you from being think it stops you from being adversarial that was a thing about adversarial that was a thing about adversarial that was a thing about um um um uh manukins uh manukins uh manukins a chapter in his book the tension a chapter in his book the tension a chapter in his book the tension between empathy and assertiveness

between empathy and assertiveness between empathy and assertiveness I remember reading that reading that uh I remember reading that reading that uh I remember reading that reading that uh name of the chapter thinking like ah you name of the chapter thinking like ah you name of the chapter thinking like ah you know know know in my business there is no tension in my business there is no tension in my business there is no tension and then I got into it and I read I and then I got into it and I read I and then I got into it and I read I thought this is a red herring thought this is a red herring thought this is a red herring he's drawing people in because his he's drawing people in because his he's drawing people in because his entire chapter is that empathy puts you entire chapter is that empathy puts you entire chapter is that empathy puts you in a position to assert in a position to assert in a position to assert and that there is no tension it's a and that there is no tension it's a and that there is no tension it's a sequencing issue sequencing issue sequencing issue and that's why again I think it's it was and that's why again I think it's it was and that's why again I think it's it was written for lawyers yeah sequencing written for lawyers yeah sequencing written for lawyers yeah sequencing issue so timing is everything so you issue so timing is everything so you issue so timing is everything so you emphasize the importance of in terms of emphasize the importance of in terms of emphasize the importance of in terms of sequencing and priority uh of listening sequencing and priority uh of listening sequencing and priority uh of listening of truly listening to the other person of truly listening to the other person of truly listening to the other person I'm sorry what'd you say that was a bad I'm sorry what'd you say that was a bad I'm sorry what'd you say that was a bad joke joke joke your timing is just perfect how do you your timing is just perfect how do you your timing is just perfect how do you how do you listen how do you listen how do you listen how do you truly listen to another human how do you truly listen to another human how do you truly listen to another human being how do you notice them how do you being how do you notice them how do you being how do you notice them how do you really hear them really hear them really hear them I always hated the term active listening I always hated the term active listening I always hated the term active listening if anything it's proactive if anything it's proactive if anything it's proactive and as soon as you start to trying to and as soon as you start to trying to and as soon as you start to trying to anticipate where somebody's going you're anticipate where somebody's going you're anticipate where somebody's going you're dialed in more um because along the way um because along the way either you're congratulating yourself either you're congratulating yourself either you're congratulating yourself for being right for being right for being right or when suddenly they say something that or when suddenly they say something that or when suddenly they say something that surprises you you really notice it like surprises you you really notice it like surprises you you really notice it like that's not what I expected that's not what I expected that's not what I expected you're dialed in you're listening so you're dialed in you're listening so you're dialed in you're listening so it's it's it's it's it's it's proactive and then proactive and then proactive and then one of the reasons one of the reasons one of the reasons you know we name the book tactical

you know we name the book tactical you know we name the book tactical empathy empathy empathy um name the name of the book never split um name the name of the book never split um name the name of the book never split the difference but we're talking about the difference but we're talking about the difference but we're talking about tactical empathy uh calibrated emotional intelligence uh calibrated emotional intelligence what's calibrated by first it was what's calibrated by first it was what's calibrated by first it was experiences hostage negotiators but and experiences hostage negotiators but and experiences hostage negotiators but and we've come to find out that our we've come to find out that our we've come to find out that our experience is hostage negotiators experience is hostage negotiators experience is hostage negotiators is backed up by Neuroscience another is backed up by Neuroscience another is backed up by Neuroscience another reason why I listened to Andrew reason why I listened to Andrew reason why I listened to Andrew huberman's podcast all the time heavy huberman's podcast all the time heavy huberman's podcast all the time heavy heavy heavy heavy on the neuroscience and so then emotional intelligence and so then emotional intelligence calibrated by what we know about calibrated by what we know about calibrated by what we know about Neuroscience what do we know about Neuroscience what do we know about Neuroscience what do we know about neuroscience and I'll talk about it from neuroscience and I'll talk about it from neuroscience and I'll talk about it from a Layman's perspective and and to even a Layman's perspective and and to even a Layman's perspective and and to even say wheeze is an arrogant thing you know say wheeze is an arrogant thing you know say wheeze is an arrogant thing you know human beings I I didn't do the research human beings I I didn't do the research human beings I I didn't do the research I'm scooping up as much of it as I can I'm scooping up as much of it as I can I'm scooping up as much of it as I can as a Layman as a Layman as a Layman the brain's largely negative the brain's largely negative the brain's largely negative I think there's ample evidence people I think there's ample evidence people I think there's ample evidence people would argue with you as to what the would argue with you as to what the would argue with you as to what the wiring is and what does what wiring is and what does what wiring is and what does what and the limbic system and all of that and the limbic system and all of that and the limbic system and all of that but but but the brain is basically 75 negative it's the brain is basically 75 negative it's the brain is basically 75 negative it's an alignment I make that contention an alignment I make that contention an alignment I make that contention number one number two number one number two number one number two the best way to deactivate negativity is the best way to deactivate negativity is the best way to deactivate negativity is by calling it out by calling it out by calling it out and I could say look I don't I don't and I could say look I don't I don't and I could say look I don't I don't want you to be offended by what I'm want you to be offended by what I'm want you to be offended by what I'm getting ready to say getting ready to say getting ready to say that's a denial your guard is up you're that's a denial your guard is up you're that's a denial your guard is up you're getting ready to get mad getting ready to get mad getting ready to get mad if I say what I'm getting ready to say if I say what I'm getting ready to say if I say what I'm getting ready to say is probably going to offend you is probably going to offend you is probably going to offend you now you relax a little bit now you relax a little bit now you relax a little bit and you go all right what is it and then

and you go all right what is it and then and you go all right what is it and then I say it whatever it is and you're going I say it whatever it is and you're going I say it whatever it is and you're going to be like oh that wasn't that bad to be like oh that wasn't that bad to be like oh that wasn't that bad because because because we knew from hostage negotiation by we knew from hostage negotiation by we knew from hostage negotiation by calling out the negativity deactivated calling out the negativity deactivated calling out the negativity deactivated and then number of Neuroscience and then number of Neuroscience and then number of Neuroscience experiments have been done right and experiments have been done right and experiments have been done right and left by calling out negativity left by calling out negativity left by calling out negativity deactivating the negativity deactivating the negativity deactivating the negativity calling out ahead of time so like calling out ahead of time so like calling out ahead of time so like acknowledging that this is acknowledging that this is acknowledging that this is the this is go ahead of time that this the this is go ahead of time that this the this is go ahead of time that this is going to hurt is going to hurt is going to hurt the experiments that I've seen the experiments that I've seen the experiments that I've seen um have been when the negativity was um have been when the negativity was um have been when the negativity was inflicted and then having a person that inflicted and then having a person that inflicted and then having a person that was being inflicted upon simply identify was being inflicted upon simply identify was being inflicted upon simply identify it just identify yeah what are you it just identify yeah what are you it just identify yeah what are you feeling I'm angry and the anger goes feeling I'm angry and the anger goes feeling I'm angry and the anger goes away it's tough because I've had a few and it's tough because I've had a few and again we're dancing between things but again we're dancing between things but again we're dancing between things but I've had a few conversations where anger I've had a few conversations where anger I've had a few conversations where anger arose in the guests I spoke with arose in the guests I spoke with arose in the guests I spoke with yeah and I'm not sure yeah and I'm not sure yeah and I'm not sure identifying it identifying it identifying it that that that's like leaning into it that that that's like leaning into it that that that's like leaning into it and going into the depths and going into the depths and going into the depths because because because that's going to the depths of some that's going to the depths of some that's going to the depths of some emotional emotional emotional psychological thing they're going psychological thing they're going psychological thing they're going through that I'm not sure I want to through that I'm not sure I want to through that I'm not sure I want to explore that Iceberg with a little ship explore that Iceberg with a little ship explore that Iceberg with a little ship we got I we got I we got I um it's a you have to decide do you want um it's a you have to decide do you want um it's a you have to decide do you want to avoid it to avoid it to avoid it or do you want to lean into it it's a or do you want to lean into it it's a or do you want to lean into it it's a tough choice it's the elephant in a room tough choice it's the elephant in a room tough choice it's the elephant in a room it is an alpha in the room it is an it is an alpha in the room it is an it is an alpha in the room it is an outfit especially when I think that's

outfit especially when I think that's outfit especially when I think that's the big difference between conversations the big difference between conversations the big difference between conversations and negotiations negotiation ultimately and negotiations negotiation ultimately and negotiations negotiation ultimately who is looking for closure and who is looking for closure and who is looking for closure and resolution I think General conversations resolution I think General conversations resolution I think General conversations like this like this like this is more exploring is more exploring is more exploring there's not necessarily a goal there's not necessarily a goal there's not necessarily a goal like if you were to put like if I had to like if you were to put like if I had to like if you were to put like if I had to put a goal for this conversation there's put a goal for this conversation there's put a goal for this conversation there's no real goal it's curiously exploring no real goal it's curiously exploring no real goal it's curiously exploring ideas ideas ideas so that'll gives you freedom to not call so that'll gives you freedom to not call so that'll gives you freedom to not call out the elephant out the elephant out the elephant for for time you could be like all right for for time you could be like all right for for time you could be like all right let's go to the Next Room get a snack let's go to the Next Room get a snack let's go to the Next Room get a snack and come back to the elephant right and come back to the elephant right and come back to the elephant right all right so I I'd make a tiny all right so I I'd make a tiny all right so I I'd make a tiny adjustment on the negotiation definition adjustment on the negotiation definition adjustment on the negotiation definition sure because you said I think um sure because you said I think um sure because you said I think um seeking closure um um you use two words enclosure was one of you use two words enclosure was one of you use two words enclosure was one of them goals maybe another well yeah what them goals maybe another well yeah what them goals maybe another well yeah what is what is negotiation well I would say is what is negotiation well I would say is what is negotiation well I would say seeking collaboration seeking collaboration seeking collaboration and because closure kind of puts a and because closure kind of puts a and because closure kind of puts a little bit of a finality to it a real little bit of a finality to it a real little bit of a finality to it a real problem in any negotiations always problem in any negotiations always problem in any negotiations always implementation implementation implementation that's why we say yeses I say we yes that's why we say yeses I say we yes that's why we say yeses I say we yes there's nothing without how there's nothing without how there's nothing without how and and yes and it's at its very best and and yes and it's at its very best and and yes and it's at its very best it's only temporary aspiration it's it's only temporary aspiration it's it's only temporary aspiration it's aspirational it's usually counterfeit aspirational it's usually counterfeit aspirational it's usually counterfeit so if you're looking for yeah that's a so if you're looking for yeah that's a so if you're looking for yeah that's a good lie yes it's usually a counterfeit good lie yes it's usually a counterfeit good lie yes it's usually a counterfeit it's aspirational without the how yeah it's aspirational without the how yeah it's aspirational without the how yeah it's just a good line yeah thank you and it's just a good line yeah thank you and it's just a good line yeah thank you and we're working on it I was practicing I we're working on it I was practicing I we're working on it I was practicing I in front of the mirror 14. pretty good

in front of the mirror 14. pretty good in front of the mirror 14. pretty good you got a bright future I think you got a bright future I think you got a bright future I think you should write a book or something you should write a book or something you should write a book or something okay okay okay yeah yeah yeah [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] uh your book is uh excellent by the way uh your book is uh excellent by the way uh your book is uh excellent by the way thanks appreciate that what am I doing thanks appreciate that what am I doing thanks appreciate that what am I doing here anyway this and Earth is on you here anyway this and Earth is on you here anyway this and Earth is on you with you I don't know with you I don't know with you I don't know I'm collaborating I'm collaborating I'm collaborating why me though why why'd you why'd you why me though why why'd you why'd you why me though why why'd you why'd you want to talk to me I've heard you speak want to talk to me I've heard you speak want to talk to me I've heard you speak in a few places I was like this this is in a few places I was like this this is in a few places I was like this this is a fascinating human a fascinating human a fascinating human um I think on clubhouse and different um I think on clubhouse and different um I think on clubhouse and different places then I'll listen to some YouTube places then I'll listen to some YouTube places then I'll listen to some YouTube stuff and this is stuff and this is stuff and this is just you've meet people that are just you've meet people that are just you've meet people that are interesting that's that's what I love interesting that's that's what I love interesting that's that's what I love doing with this podcast is just doing with this podcast is just doing with this podcast is just exploring the mind of an interesting exploring the mind of an interesting exploring the mind of an interesting person person person you notice people sometimes you you notice people sometimes you you notice people sometimes you sometimes as like a homeless person sometimes as like a homeless person sometimes as like a homeless person that's outside of 7-Eleven I notice who that's outside of 7-Eleven I notice who that's outside of 7-Eleven I notice who are you yeah yeah yeah it's fascinating are you yeah yeah yeah it's fascinating are you yeah yeah yeah it's fascinating it doesn't like I don't look at the it doesn't like I don't look at the it doesn't like I don't look at the resumes and the credentials and stuff resumes and the credentials and stuff resumes and the credentials and stuff like that it's just being able to notice like that it's just being able to notice like that it's just being able to notice a person because I've been leafing a person because I've been leafing a person because I've been leafing through the different choices of the through the different choices of the through the different choices of the podcast sure the uh the young lady that podcast sure the uh the young lady that podcast sure the uh the young lady that um only fans and the sex workers that's um only fans and the sex workers that's um only fans and the sex workers that's a fascinating human being like I want to a fascinating human being like I want to a fascinating human being like I want to know what makes that person Tech a know what makes that person Tech a know what makes that person Tech a thousand percent if that's anything thousand percent if that's anything thousand percent if that's anything about her is her world view is almost about her is her world view is almost about her is her world view is almost entirely different than mine and that's entirely different than mine and that's entirely different than mine and that's always interesting to talk to a person always interesting to talk to a person always interesting to talk to a person who just is happy who just is happy who just is happy flourishing but sees the world and the flourishing but sees the world and the flourishing but sees the world and the set of values she has is completely

set of values she has is completely set of values she has is completely different different different and and is also not argumentative is and and is also not argumentative is and and is also not argumentative is accepting of other World Views it's accepting of other World Views it's accepting of other World Views it's beautiful to explore that yeah no beautiful to explore that yeah no beautiful to explore that yeah no kidding I would agree and then yeah kidding I would agree and then yeah kidding I would agree and then yeah thought provoking because I consider thought provoking because I consider thought provoking because I consider myself myself myself um um um uh the word I was looking for before is uh the word I was looking for before is uh the word I was looking for before is abundant I think it's an abundant world abundant I think it's an abundant world abundant I think it's an abundant world so I'm pretty optimistic so I'm pretty optimistic so I'm pretty optimistic I consider myself I don't know happy I consider myself I don't know happy I consider myself I don't know happy exactly describes it but yeah you know exactly describes it but yeah you know exactly describes it but yeah you know I'm so then if I'm happy optimistic I'm so then if I'm happy optimistic I'm so then if I'm happy optimistic abundant I got a world view and then you abundant I got a world view and then you abundant I got a world view and then you run into somebody that has a vastly run into somebody that has a vastly run into somebody that has a vastly different world view and they're happy different world view and they're happy different world view and they're happy and and they think it's abundant too and and they think it's abundant too and and they think it's abundant too and you're like what is going on in your and you're like what is going on in your and you're like what is going on in your head or mine or what am I missing huh head or mine or what am I missing huh head or mine or what am I missing huh yes that's fascinating and the pie grows yes that's fascinating and the pie grows yes that's fascinating and the pie grows which is useful for kind of negotiation which is useful for kind of negotiation which is useful for kind of negotiation when you paint a picture of a future if when you paint a picture of a future if when you paint a picture of a future if you're optimistic about that feature you're optimistic about that feature you're optimistic about that feature does it kind of feeling like we're both does it kind of feeling like we're both does it kind of feeling like we're both going to win here exactly and that's going to win here exactly and that's going to win here exactly and that's easy we live in a world where both easy we live in a world where both easy we live in a world where both people can win yeah and and in point of people can win yeah and and in point of people can win yeah and and in point of fact that's the case although it's a lot fact that's the case although it's a lot fact that's the case although it's a lot of people want us to think otherwise of people want us to think otherwise of people want us to think otherwise mostly because of the negativity that I mostly because of the negativity that I mostly because of the negativity that I was talking about before so the brain is was talking about before so the brain is was talking about before so the brain is generally cynical yeah my description of generally cynical yeah my description of generally cynical yeah my description of it is it is it is the pessimistic caveman survived and the pessimistic caveman survived and the pessimistic caveman survived and we're descendants of the pessimists yeah we're descendants of the pessimists yeah we're descendants of the pessimists yeah you're optimistic yeah I got eaten by a you're optimistic yeah I got eaten by a you're optimistic yeah I got eaten by a saber-toothed tiger saber-toothed tiger saber-toothed tiger yeah but on the flip side the Optimus yeah but on the flip side the Optimus yeah but on the flip side the Optimus seem to be the ones that actually build seem to be the ones that actually build seem to be the ones that actually build stuff these days there's the switch like stuff these days there's the switch like stuff these days there's the switch like so at what point in time do we catch on so at what point in time do we catch on so at what point in time do we catch on because the difference between survival

because the difference between survival because the difference between survival and success mindset and success mindset and success mindset the success mindset is highly optimistic the success mindset is highly optimistic the success mindset is highly optimistic so where do we switch or how do we stay so where do we switch or how do we stay so where do we switch or how do we stay switched from survival to success that's switched from survival to success that's switched from survival to success that's the challenge the challenge the challenge yeah somewhere we stopped being eaten by yeah somewhere we stopped being eaten by yeah somewhere we stopped being eaten by saber-toothed tigers and started saber-toothed tigers and started saber-toothed tigers and started building bridges and buildings and building bridges and buildings and building bridges and buildings and computers and companies and we started computers and companies and we started computers and companies and we started to experience we got enough data back to experience we got enough data back to experience we got enough data back to collaborate to collaborate to collaborate and we stopped listening to our amygdala and we stopped listening to our amygdala and we stopped listening to our amygdala and we started listening to our gut and we started listening to our gut and we started listening to our gut let me just to return briefly to let me just to return briefly to let me just to return briefly to terrorists uh what do you think about terrorists uh what do you think about terrorists uh what do you think about the policy of not negotiating with the policy of not negotiating with the policy of not negotiating with terrorists well that's not the policy terrorists well that's not the policy terrorists well that's not the policy first of all first of all first of all now everybody thinks that's the policy now everybody thinks that's the policy now everybody thinks that's the policy yeah it hasn't been in the policy since yeah it hasn't been in the policy since yeah it hasn't been in the policy since 2002 when Bush 43 signed a National 2002 when Bush 43 signed a National 2002 when Bush 43 signed a National Security Presidential Directive nspd the Security Presidential Directive nspd the Security Presidential Directive nspd the time it was nspd12 time it was nspd12 time it was nspd12 which basically said which basically said which basically said um we won't make concessions that um we won't make concessions that um we won't make concessions that doesn't mean we won't talk doesn't mean we won't talk doesn't mean we won't talk so I'm in Colombia at the same time and so I'm in Colombia at the same time and so I'm in Colombia at the same time and I have been intimately involved with the I have been intimately involved with the I have been intimately involved with the signing of him signing that document signing of him signing that document signing of him signing that document I knew exactly what it said and I and he I knew exactly what it said and I and he I knew exactly what it said and I and he didn't inherit it from somebody else he didn't inherit it from somebody else he didn't inherit it from somebody else he signed signed signed and I'm in Colombia and I'm in Colombia and I'm in Colombia and the number two in the embassy says and the number two in the embassy says and the number two in the embassy says last night on TV the president of the last night on TV the president of the last night on TV the president of the United States said we don't negotiate United States said we don't negotiate United States said we don't negotiate with terrorists are you calling a

with terrorists are you calling a with terrorists are you calling a president United States a liar president United States a liar president United States a liar and I remember thinking like all right and I remember thinking like all right and I remember thinking like all right so so so he probably said that and that's not on he probably said that and that's not on he probably said that and that's not on the document that he signed the document that he signed the document that he signed so I said look it you know so I said look it you know so I said look it you know I'm familiar with what he's signed and I'm familiar with what he's signed and I'm familiar with what he's signed and it that's not what it says well you know it that's not what it says well you know it that's not what it says well you know and so the argument but that's always and so the argument but that's always and so the argument but that's always been the sound bite that everybody likes been the sound bite that everybody likes been the sound bite that everybody likes we don't negotiate with terrorists we don't negotiate with terrorists we don't negotiate with terrorists depends upon your definition of depends upon your definition of depends upon your definition of negotiation if it's just communication negotiation if it's just communication negotiation if it's just communication we negotiate with them all the time we negotiate with them all the time we negotiate with them all the time number one number two number one number two number one number two like every president has made some like every president has made some like every president has made some bone-headed deal with the bad guys bone-headed deal with the bad guys bone-headed deal with the bad guys like Obama released five high-level like Obama released five high-level like Obama released five high-level Taliban leaders from Guantanamo in Taliban leaders from Guantanamo in Taliban leaders from Guantanamo in exchange for an AWOL soldier that we exchange for an AWOL soldier that we exchange for an AWOL soldier that we immediately threw in jail immediately threw in jail immediately threw in jail and I thought that was a horrible deal and I thought that was a horrible deal and I thought that was a horrible deal and that would that's putting terrorists and that would that's putting terrorists and that would that's putting terrorists back on a Battlefield back on a Battlefield back on a Battlefield and then Trump turned around and topped and then Trump turned around and topped and then Trump turned around and topped it by putting 5 000 tariffs back on the it by putting 5 000 tariffs back on the it by putting 5 000 tariffs back on the battlefield battlefield battlefield so we haven't had a president that stick so we haven't had a president that stick so we haven't had a president that stick has stuck to that on either side of the has stuck to that on either side of the has stuck to that on either side of the aisle since people started throwing that aisle since people started throwing that aisle since people started throwing that out as a sound bike what do you think of out as a sound bike what do you think of out as a sound bike what do you think of that negotiation forget terrorists but that negotiation forget terrorists but that negotiation forget terrorists but the global negotiation like with with the global negotiation like with with the global negotiation like with with Vladimir Putin the recent negotiation Vladimir Putin the recent negotiation Vladimir Putin the recent negotiation over prisoners over prisoners over prisoners The Exchange the breeding Gardener is The Exchange the breeding Gardener is The Exchange the breeding Gardener is there a way to do that negotiation there a way to do that negotiation there a way to do that negotiation successfully first of all I agree with successfully first of all I agree with successfully first of all I agree with the idea that she was wrongfully the idea that she was wrongfully the idea that she was wrongfully detained and that she had and she didn't detained and that she had and she didn't detained and that she had and she didn't deserve to be in jail and

deserve to be in jail and deserve to be in jail and that US Government there should be no that US Government there should be no that US Government there should be no second-class citizens ever and whether second-class citizens ever and whether second-class citizens ever and whether you're an a WNBA player or you're just you're an a WNBA player or you're just you're an a WNBA player or you're just some bonehead that walked into the wrong some bonehead that walked into the wrong some bonehead that walked into the wrong situation your government should not situation your government should not situation your government should not abandon you ever ever abandon you ever ever abandon you ever ever now what they do now what they do now what they do um in the meantime um in the meantime um in the meantime there should have been a negotiation there should have been a negotiation there should have been a negotiation they were desperate to make a deal at a they were desperate to make a deal at a they were desperate to make a deal at a bad time they'd been offered far better bad time they'd been offered far better bad time they'd been offered far better deals than prisoner swaps earlier and deals than prisoner swaps earlier and deals than prisoner swaps earlier and turned them down turned them down turned them down and then he gets turned up and thank God and then he gets turned up and thank God and then he gets turned up and thank God for Brittany Griner that um the public for Brittany Griner that um the public for Brittany Griner that um the public got enough attention they kept pressure got enough attention they kept pressure got enough attention they kept pressure on the administration they made a deal on the administration they made a deal on the administration they made a deal now governments want to make those kind now governments want to make those kind now governments want to make those kind of deals that's fine as long as it of deals that's fine as long as it of deals that's fine as long as it because that was basically a political because that was basically a political because that was basically a political negotiation you're putting five thousand negotiation you're putting five thousand negotiation you're putting five thousand Taliban back on a Battlefield Taliban back on a Battlefield Taliban back on a Battlefield that ain't negotiating with another that ain't negotiating with another that ain't negotiating with another government you're putting five of them government you're putting five of them government you're putting five of them back on a battlefield that ain't back on a battlefield that ain't back on a battlefield that ain't negotiating with another government negotiating with another government negotiating with another government that's directly contradicting this thing that's directly contradicting this thing that's directly contradicting this thing that you claimed and those were all bad that you claimed and those were all bad that you claimed and those were all bad deals now was it Brittany grinder thing deals now was it Brittany grinder thing deals now was it Brittany grinder thing a bad deal I think it was great for her a bad deal I think it was great for her a bad deal I think it was great for her if I was in the middle of it would have if I was in the middle of it would have if I was in the middle of it would have been better been better been better and she still would have come home yeah and she still would have come home yeah and she still would have come home yeah there's some technical aspects of that there's some technical aspects of that there's some technical aspects of that negotiation what do you think is the negotiation what do you think is the negotiation what do you think is the value just the link on it of meeting in value just the link on it of meeting in value just the link on it of meeting in person for the negotiation I think it's person for the negotiation I think it's person for the negotiation I think it's a great idea can I just just follow that a great idea can I just just follow that a great idea can I just just follow that tangent along there's a war in Ukraine tangent along there's a war in Ukraine tangent along there's a war in Ukraine now it's been going on over a year it's uh for me personally giving my life it's uh for me personally giving my life uh stories is is a is a deeply personal

uh stories is is a is a deeply personal uh stories is is a is a deeply personal one and I'm one and I'm one and I'm returning back to that area of the world returning back to that area of the world returning back to that area of the world that was there that was there that was there uh Vladimir zielinski said he doesn't uh Vladimir zielinski said he doesn't uh Vladimir zielinski said he doesn't want to talk to uh to Vladimir Putin want to talk to uh to Vladimir Putin want to talk to uh to Vladimir Putin do you think they could get in a room do you think they could get in a room do you think they could get in a room together together together and uh and uh and uh say you were there in a room with Putin say you were there in a room with Putin say you were there in a room with Putin and zelenski and Biden is uh sitting in and zelenski and Biden is uh sitting in and zelenski and Biden is uh sitting in the back drinking a cocktail or maybe he the back drinking a cocktail or maybe he the back drinking a cocktail or maybe he is at the table participating how how is is at the table participating how how is is at the table participating how how is it possible through negotiation through it possible through negotiation through it possible through negotiation through the art of conversation to find peace in the art of conversation to find peace in the art of conversation to find peace in this very tense geopolitical this very tense geopolitical this very tense geopolitical uh conflict uh conflict uh conflict I think it's eminently possible I think I think it's eminently possible I think I think it's eminently possible I think the getting people together in person the getting people together in person the getting people together in person has always been a good idea now how many has always been a good idea now how many has always been a good idea now how many times who's getting them together under times who's getting them together under times who's getting them together under what circumstances and how many times what circumstances and how many times what circumstances and how many times you get them together you get them together you get them together the um the um the um the documentary the human factor about the documentary the human factor about the documentary the human factor about the Mideast peace negotiations mostly the Mideast peace negotiations mostly the Mideast peace negotiations mostly through the 90s mostly under the Clinton through the 90s mostly under the Clinton through the 90s mostly under the Clinton administration got kicked off uh under Bush 41.

got kicked off uh under Bush 41. and then the documentary continues and then the documentary continues and then the documentary continues through Trump through Trump through Trump but just touching basically on it but but just touching basically on it but but just touching basically on it but they're getting air fat and and the they're getting air fat and and the they're getting air fat and and the different different different Israeli Prime Ministers together in Israeli Prime Ministers together in Israeli Prime Ministers together in person person person and these guys do not want to talk to and these guys do not want to talk to and these guys do not want to talk to each other and depend upon the prime each other and depend upon the prime each other and depend upon the prime minister minister minister you know the the mere thought of being you know the the mere thought of being you know the the mere thought of being on the same planet with Arafat was on the same planet with Arafat was on the same planet with Arafat was offensive offensive offensive and they started getting these guys and they started getting these guys and they started getting these guys together in person regularly and they together in person regularly and they together in person regularly and they started seeing each other's human beings started seeing each other's human beings started seeing each other's human beings and they started realizing that there and they started realizing that there and they started realizing that there was enough room on the planet for them was enough room on the planet for them was enough room on the planet for them and that people dying and that people dying and that people dying was stupid was stupid was stupid and they were and they would slowly work and they were and they would slowly work and they were and they would slowly work things out by getting these guys things out by getting these guys things out by getting these guys together in person together in person together in person so how long does it take who's hosting so how long does it take who's hosting so how long does it take who's hosting it it it but it's a good idea but the skill of but it's a good idea but the skill of but it's a good idea but the skill of uh achieving that thing that you talk uh achieving that thing that you talk uh achieving that thing that you talk about a lot which is empathy and I would about a lot which is empathy and I would about a lot which is empathy and I would say in that case not just empathy but say in that case not just empathy but say in that case not just empathy but empathy plus a bit you might disagree empathy plus a bit you might disagree empathy plus a bit you might disagree with this but a drop of compassion in with this but a drop of compassion in with this but a drop of compassion in there but I think compassion compassion there but I think compassion compassion there but I think compassion compassion is helpful is helpful is helpful um but it's not essential um but it's not essential um but it's not essential like if you just know where I'm coming like if you just know where I'm coming like if you just know where I'm coming from from from like it it the thought the feeling of like it it the thought the feeling of like it it the thought the feeling of being being being understood yeah pardon understood that's understood yeah pardon understood that's understood yeah pardon understood that's powerful is yeah and and again I know I powerful is yeah and and again I know I powerful is yeah and and again I know I picked the vast majority of this up on picked the vast majority of this up on picked the vast majority of this up on on Andrews on Andrews on Andrews um podcast but it picked it up in other um podcast but it picked it up in other um podcast but it picked it up in other places because early on

places because early on places because early on when we were putting a book together a when we were putting a book together a when we were putting a book together a tall Roz uh the writer uh my son tall Roz uh the writer uh my son tall Roz uh the writer uh my son uncredited co-author so the books really uncredited co-author so the books really uncredited co-author so the books really uh collaboration between me my son uh collaboration between me my son uh collaboration between me my son Brandon and Tall Ross Brandon and Tall Ross Brandon and Tall Ross and we're driving for that's right you and we're driving for that's right you and we're driving for that's right you know when somebody feels like what know when somebody feels like what know when somebody feels like what you've said is completely their position you've said is completely their position you've said is completely their position they say that's right they say that's right they say that's right now you're right but that's right now you're right but that's right now you're right but that's right so tall says you know I think I think so tall says you know I think I think so tall says you know I think I think what's Happening Here is you're what's Happening Here is you're what's Happening Here is you're triggering a subtle Epiphany in somebody triggering a subtle Epiphany in somebody triggering a subtle Epiphany in somebody so I'm like all right I'll buy that so I so I'm like all right I'll buy that so I so I'm like all right I'll buy that so I start looking up the Neuroscience of the start looking up the Neuroscience of the start looking up the Neuroscience of the feeling of epiphany feeling of epiphany feeling of epiphany getting ahead of getting ahead of getting ahead of oxytocin and serotonin oxytocin is a bonding drug oxytocin is a bonding drug you bond to me to you when you feel you bond to me to you when you feel you bond to me to you when you feel completely understood by me you bond to completely understood by me you bond to completely understood by me you bond to me me me then in one of the relationship podcasts then in one of the relationship podcasts then in one of the relationship podcasts that I'm listening to on on Andrew that I'm listening to on on Andrew that I'm listening to on on Andrew um it says oxytocin inclines people to um it says oxytocin inclines people to um it says oxytocin inclines people to tell the truth tell the truth tell the truth you're more honest all right so you feel you're more honest all right so you feel you're more honest all right so you feel deeply understood by me you bond to me deeply understood by me you bond to me deeply understood by me you bond to me and you start getting more honest with and you start getting more honest with and you start getting more honest with me me me serotonin serotonin serotonin the neurochemical satisfaction the neurochemical satisfaction the neurochemical satisfaction Epiphany you feel oxytocin and serotonin Epiphany you feel oxytocin and serotonin Epiphany you feel oxytocin and serotonin being understood all right I got you being understood all right I got you being understood all right I got you bonding to me I got you being more bonding to me I got you being more bonding to me I got you being more honest with me and I got you feeling

honest with me and I got you feeling honest with me and I got you feeling more satisfied so you want less more satisfied so you want less more satisfied so you want less what more do you want out of a what more do you want out of a what more do you want out of a negotiation negotiation negotiation of course there's already with uh of course there's already with uh of course there's already with uh leaders and great negotiators there's a leaders and great negotiators there's a leaders and great negotiators there's a walls built up defense mechanisms walls built up defense mechanisms walls built up defense mechanisms against that right there's you're against that right there's you're against that right there's you're resisting you're resisting this basic resisting you're resisting this basic resisting you're resisting this basic chemistry but yes you should have that chemistry but yes you should have that chemistry but yes you should have that um you should work towards that kind of um you should work towards that kind of um you should work towards that kind of empathy empathy empathy and I I personally believe I I don't and I I personally believe I I don't and I I personally believe I I don't actually understand why but I've actually understand why but I've actually understand why but I've Observer time and time again but getting Observer time and time again but getting Observer time and time again but getting in a room together in a room together in a room together and really talking whether privately or and really talking whether privately or and really talking whether privately or publicly but really talking publicly but really talking publicly but really talking uh and like this so I'll I'll comment on uh and like this so I'll I'll comment on uh and like this so I'll I'll comment on this so right now this is being recorded this so right now this is being recorded this so right now this is being recorded and a few folks will hear this but when and a few folks will hear this but when and a few folks will hear this but when you really do a good job of this kind of you really do a good job of this kind of you really do a good job of this kind of conversation you forget there's cameras conversation you forget there's cameras conversation you forget there's cameras right and that's much better than there right and that's much better than there right and that's much better than there being even a third person in the room being even a third person in the room being even a third person in the room but often when um world leaders meet but often when um world leaders meet but often when um world leaders meet those like press or there's others in those like press or there's others in those like press or there's others in the room like as you know man-to-man or the room like as you know man-to-man or the room like as you know man-to-man or man to woman you have to like meet like man to woman you have to like meet like man to woman you have to like meet like in like in a saloon just the two of you in like in a saloon just the two of you in like in a saloon just the two of you and talk there's some intimacy and power and talk there's some intimacy and power and talk there's some intimacy and power to that to achieve the the if you're to that to achieve the the if you're to that to achieve the the if you're also willing to couple that with empathy also willing to couple that with empathy also willing to couple that with empathy to really hear the other person yeah to really hear the other person yeah to really hear the other person yeah yeah I don't know what that is that's yeah I don't know what that is that's yeah I don't know what that is that's like a deep deep intimacy that happens like a deep deep intimacy that happens like a deep deep intimacy that happens and I think there's actually and I think there's actually and I think there's actually because we get access in a Black Swan because we get access in a Black Swan because we get access in a Black Swan group all the time like how do you you group all the time like how do you you group all the time like how do you you know Zoom that's bad you know because

know Zoom that's bad you know because know Zoom that's bad you know because you don't have the same visual feedback you don't have the same visual feedback you don't have the same visual feedback on zoom and that's not true like you and on zoom and that's not true like you and on zoom and that's not true like you and I I see you from the waist up right now I I see you from the waist up right now I I see you from the waist up right now if we're on Zoom I'd be looking at you if we're on Zoom I'd be looking at you if we're on Zoom I'd be looking at you from the waist up I'm not wearing pants from the waist up I'm not wearing pants from the waist up I'm not wearing pants yeah yeah yeah for the internet I apologize for that for the internet I apologize for that for the internet I apologize for that sorry yeah yeah yeah you only see a sorry yeah yeah yeah you only see a sorry yeah yeah yeah you only see a small portion small portion small portion usually that's usually where I go but uh usually that's usually where I go but uh usually that's usually where I go but uh anyway anyway anyway I'm glad we both have ridiculous I I'm glad we both have ridiculous I I'm glad we both have ridiculous I appreciate it appreciate it appreciate it but what makes this different in person but what makes this different in person but what makes this different in person I I actually think I I actually think I I actually think um I think there's energy um I think there's energy um I think there's energy that we're unable we don't have the that we're unable we don't have the that we're unable we don't have the instrumentation to Define yet instrumentation to Define yet instrumentation to Define yet and I think that there's a feel I think and I think that there's a feel I think and I think that there's a feel I think there's an actual energetic feel that there's an actual energetic feel that there's an actual energetic feel that changes and just because we don't we changes and just because we don't we changes and just because we don't we again just because we can't again just because we can't again just because we can't measure it measure it measure it doesn't mean it's not there doesn't mean it's not there doesn't mean it's not there yeah I would love to figure out what yeah I would love to figure out what yeah I would love to figure out what that is uh folks that are working on that is uh folks that are working on that is uh folks that are working on virtual reality are trying to figure out virtual reality are trying to figure out virtual reality are trying to figure out that what that is during the pandemic that what that is during the pandemic that what that is during the pandemic everybody was on Zoom zoom and Microsoft everybody was on Zoom zoom and Microsoft everybody was on Zoom zoom and Microsoft everybody was trying to figure out how everybody was trying to figure out how everybody was trying to figure out how do we replicate that I'm trying to do we replicate that I'm trying to do we replicate that I'm trying to understand how to replicate that because understand how to replicate that because understand how to replicate that because it sure is not fun to travel across the it sure is not fun to travel across the it sure is not fun to travel across the world just to talk to Snowden or Putin world just to talk to Snowden or Putin world just to talk to Snowden or Putin or zelenski I'd love to do it over Zoom or zelenski I'd love to do it over Zoom or zelenski I'd love to do it over Zoom it's not the same it's not the same no it's not the same it's not the same no it's not the same it's not the same no it's not the same it's not the same it's not the same I'd go in a room with Putin you would go I'd go in a room with Putin you would go I'd go in a room with Putin you would go I would yeah a thousand percent I would yeah a thousand percent I would yeah a thousand percent I get it that's right Adam

I get it that's right Adam I get it that's right Adam that's right that's right that's right well first you would give him a that's well first you would give him a that's well first you would give him a that's right probably ah getting a given us to right probably ah getting a given us to right probably ah getting a given us to see see that and here's the issue that see see that and here's the issue that see see that and here's the issue that trips everybody up in negotiation the trips everybody up in negotiation the trips everybody up in negotiation the difference between hearing and speaking difference between hearing and speaking difference between hearing and speaking the same words are vastly different the same words are vastly different the same words are vastly different and what I'm looking for is what I'm the and what I'm looking for is what I'm the and what I'm looking for is what I'm the responses I'm getting out of you responses I'm getting out of you responses I'm getting out of you because if you if you can't first that's because if you if you can't first that's because if you if you can't first that's right especially like if you can't right especially like if you can't right especially like if you can't appreciate what that really means appreciate what that really means appreciate what that really means hearing it is unsatisfying so those two hearing it is unsatisfying so those two hearing it is unsatisfying so those two words are really important to you talk words are really important to you talk words are really important to you talk about this in your book what is why is about this in your book what is why is about this in your book what is why is that so what does that's right mean why that so what does that's right mean why that so what does that's right mean why is it important well it means that what is it important well it means that what is it important well it means that what you just heard you think is you just heard you think is you just heard you think is unequivocably the truth unequivocably the truth unequivocably the truth like it's dead on it hit the target it's like it's dead on it hit the target it's like it's dead on it hit the target it's it's a bullseye it's a bullseye it's a bullseye and it's been a topic of discussion and it's been a topic of discussion and it's been a topic of discussion especially between my son and I a lot especially between my son and I a lot especially between my son and I a lot like what happens like what happens like what happens the oxytocin bonding moment the oxytocin bonding moment the oxytocin bonding moment and he his contention has always been and he his contention has always been and he his contention has always been like Donald Trump is the poster child of like Donald Trump is the poster child of like Donald Trump is the poster child of what it means because what it means because what it means because Donald Trump's been addressing an Donald Trump's been addressing an Donald Trump's been addressing an audience you know he's he's in a debate audience you know he's he's in a debate audience you know he's he's in a debate with Hillary or he's given a speech with Hillary or he's given a speech with Hillary or he's given a speech someplace someplace someplace and when the people that are devoted to and when the people that are devoted to and when the people that are devoted to him him him when they believe that he what he's just when they believe that he what he's just when they believe that he what he's just said is completely right it's insightful said is completely right it's insightful said is completely right it's insightful they look at him or they look at the TV they look at him or they look at the TV they look at him or they look at the TV and they go that's right and they go that's right and they go that's right and it's a it's what people say when and it's a it's what people say when and it's a it's what people say when they're bought into what they just heard

they're bought into what they just heard they're bought into what they just heard now if you're not convinced of the way now if you're not convinced of the way now if you're not convinced of the way that Donald Trump's followers are bonded that Donald Trump's followers are bonded that Donald Trump's followers are bonded to him to him to him and he he also just like this in my view and he he also just like this in my view and he he also just like this in my view destroys the idea of common ground destroys the idea of common ground destroys the idea of common ground because when he first started to run for because when he first started to run for because when he first started to run for president the pundits president the pundits president the pundits all said eyes a New Yorker all said eyes a New Yorker all said eyes a New Yorker nobody in the Republican party is going nobody in the Republican party is going nobody in the Republican party is going to like him it's Middle America you know to like him it's Middle America you know to like him it's Middle America you know it's blue collar you know it's regular it's blue collar you know it's regular it's blue collar you know it's regular common folks common folks common folks Factory workers Factory workers Factory workers then I gotta like Trump because he's then I gotta like Trump because he's then I gotta like Trump because he's from New York and he went to Ward and from New York and he went to Ward and from New York and he went to Ward and he's an Ivy Leaguer and he's a son of a he's an Ivy Leaguer and he's a son of a he's an Ivy Leaguer and he's a son of a wealthy Real Estate Mogul and he had a wealthy Real Estate Mogul and he had a wealthy Real Estate Mogul and he had a million dollars handed to him when he million dollars handed to him when he million dollars handed to him when he got out of college got out of college got out of college he you know he's born with a silver he you know he's born with a silver he you know he's born with a silver Spruce spoon in his mouth the rank and Spruce spoon in his mouth the rank and Spruce spoon in his mouth the rank and five Republicans and never gonna accept five Republicans and never gonna accept five Republicans and never gonna accept this guy this guy this guy based on common ground based on common ground based on common ground look how look how smart that was do you look how look how smart that was do you look how look how smart that was do you think he's a good negotiator do you think he's a good negotiator do you think he's a good negotiator do you think Donald Trump is a good negotiator think Donald Trump is a good negotiator think Donald Trump is a good negotiator uh no uh no uh no I think he's a great marketer I think he's a great marketer I think he's a great marketer if you look at his negotiation track if you look at his negotiation track if you look at his negotiation track record all right so I started following record all right so I started following record all right so I started following Donald Trump in the 80s when I was in Donald Trump in the 80s when I was in Donald Trump in the 80s when I was in New York I'm a last century guy he's the New York I'm a last century guy he's the New York I'm a last century guy he's the last century guy we've got mutual last century guy we've got mutual last century guy we've got mutual acquaintances acquaintances acquaintances the minister that married him to milor the minister that married him to milor the minister that married him to milor Maples was a friend of mine in a close Maples was a friend of mine in a close Maples was a friend of mine in a close friend of mine and in 1998 I threw a friend of mine and in 1998 I threw a friend of mine and in 1998 I threw a fundraiser in his apartment a Trump fundraiser in his apartment a Trump fundraiser in his apartment a Trump Tower that he attended Tower that he attended Tower that he attended so so so um no shortage of mutual friends we went

um no shortage of mutual friends we went um no shortage of mutual friends we went to the same church to the same church to the same church still have mutual mutual acquaintances still have mutual mutual acquaintances still have mutual mutual acquaintances friends friends friends I don't know and watched his track I don't know and watched his track I don't know and watched his track record negotiation history record negotiation history record negotiation history which is exactly his track record with which is exactly his track record with which is exactly his track record with North Korea where are we with North North Korea where are we with North North Korea where are we with North Korea what was the deal that he made Korea what was the deal that he made Korea what was the deal that he made with North Korea with North Korea with North Korea see your answer is the same as everybody see your answer is the same as everybody see your answer is the same as everybody else's else's else's well I remember it started out with a well I remember it started out with a well I remember it started out with a lot of fanfare yeah but I don't know lot of fanfare yeah but I don't know lot of fanfare yeah but I don't know what happened because nothing ever what happened because nothing ever what happened because nothing ever happens as more public Fanfare so happens as more public Fanfare so happens as more public Fanfare so marketing minded presentation with a marketing minded presentation with a marketing minded presentation with a bang if he doesn't cut the deal in a bang if he doesn't cut the deal in a bang if he doesn't cut the deal in a short period a really short period of short period a really short period of short period a really short period of time he moves on time he moves on time he moves on and everybody wonders what had happened and everybody wonders what had happened and everybody wonders what had happened because it was so much fanfare at the because it was so much fanfare at the because it was so much fanfare at the beginning now beginning now beginning now at the beginning him even opening that at the beginning him even opening that at the beginning him even opening that dialogue with North Korea was masterful dialogue with North Korea was masterful dialogue with North Korea was masterful like I was I was such a fan when you got like I was I was such a fan when you got like I was I was such a fan when you got a president of the United States a president of the United States a president of the United States that is willing to sit down and talk that is willing to sit down and talk that is willing to sit down and talk with the leader of another Nation when with the leader of another Nation when with the leader of another Nation when every other president all our advisors every other president all our advisors every other president all our advisors are saying the leader of North Korea is are saying the leader of North Korea is are saying the leader of North Korea is beneath you you cannot dignify him by beneath you you cannot dignify him by beneath you you cannot dignify him by responding to him directly and responding to him directly and responding to him directly and consequently consequently consequently the Trump Administration inherits a can the Trump Administration inherits a can the Trump Administration inherits a can of worms of worms of worms that has been simmering for 30 years that has been simmering for 30 years that has been simmering for 30 years he didn't get us into that and he and he he didn't get us into that and he and he he didn't get us into that and he and he opened up a dialogue where nobody else opened up a dialogue where nobody else opened up a dialogue where nobody else was capable of opening a dialogue and it was capable of opening a dialogue and it was capable of opening a dialogue and it just went away just went away just went away nobody knows what happened

and there was no deal made and there was no deal made now great negotiators make deals now great negotiators make deals now great negotiators make deals what do you think about these what do you think about these what do you think about these accusations that he's a narcissist accusations that he's a narcissist accusations that he's a narcissist if you're a narcissist does that help if you're a narcissist does that help if you're a narcissist does that help you or hurt you you or hurt you you or hurt you is there a more popular term these days is there a more popular term these days is there a more popular term these days than narcissist ever like everybody's a than narcissist ever like everybody's a than narcissist ever like everybody's a narcissist everybody you don't like is a narcissist everybody you don't like is a narcissist everybody you don't like is a narcissist like the homeless guy Down on narcissist like the homeless guy Down on narcissist like the homeless guy Down on the Corner he's a narcissist that's why the Corner he's a narcissist that's why the Corner he's a narcissist that's why he's there he's there he's there yeah it's lost meaning for you a little yeah it's lost meaning for you a little yeah it's lost meaning for you a little bit Yeah and first of all most bit Yeah and first of all most bit Yeah and first of all most psychological terms psychological terms psychological terms as a hostage negotiator and really we as a hostage negotiator and really we as a hostage negotiator and really we were never into psychology were never into psychology were never into psychology and we steered away from because and we steered away from because and we steered away from because psychology is at best is soft science psychology is at best is soft science psychology is at best is soft science if it's not informed these days if it's if it's not informed these days if it's if it's not informed these days if it's not informed by not informed by not informed by real studies or real studies or real studies or um um um Neuroscience the guys that I'm impressed Neuroscience the guys that I'm impressed Neuroscience the guys that I'm impressed with these days psychologists with these days psychologists with these days psychologists neuroscientists now I wanna I'm I'm neuroscientists now I wanna I'm I'm neuroscientists now I wanna I'm I'm interested in that that that guy or gal interested in that that that guy or gal interested in that that that guy or gal but then psychology convention do you but then psychology convention do you but then psychology convention do you get them all together and they all agree get them all together and they all agree get them all together and they all agree but also the interesting thing about but also the interesting thing about but also the interesting thing about psychology is each individual person psychology is each individual person psychology is each individual person is way more complicated than the is way more complicated than the is way more complicated than the category psychology tries to create and category psychology tries to create and category psychology tries to create and there's something about the human brain there's something about the human brain there's something about the human brain the moment you classify somebody as a the moment you classify somebody as a the moment you classify somebody as a narcissist or depressed or bipolar narcissist or depressed or bipolar narcissist or depressed or bipolar or insane in any kind of way for some or insane in any kind of way for some or insane in any kind of way for some reason you don't use you give yourself a reason you don't use you give yourself a reason you don't use you give yourself a convenient excuse not to see them as a convenient excuse not to see them as a convenient excuse not to see them as a complicated human being to empathize complicated human being to empathize complicated human being to empathize with them I had that when I was talking with them I had that when I was talking with them I had that when I was talking to I did an interview with Kanye West to I did an interview with Kanye West to I did an interview with Kanye West and then there's a lot of popular

and then there's a lot of popular and then there's a lot of popular opinions about opinions about opinions about um him being mentally unwell and so on um him being mentally unwell and so on um him being mentally unwell and so on right and I felt that that kind of way right and I felt that that kind of way right and I felt that that kind of way of thinking is a very convenient way of of thinking is a very convenient way of of thinking is a very convenient way of thinking to ignore the fact that he's a thinking to ignore the fact that he's a thinking to ignore the fact that he's a human being human being human being that again wants to be understood and that again wants to be understood and that again wants to be understood and heard heard heard and that's the only way you can have and that's the only way you can have and that's the only way you can have that conversation that conversation that conversation yeah I agree completely that's right yeah I agree completely that's right yeah I agree completely that's right I feel so close to you now I feel so close to you now I feel so close to you now am I because I'm not wearing pants am I because I'm not wearing pants am I because I'm not wearing pants all right so uh you're funnier than I am all right so uh you're funnier than I am all right so uh you're funnier than I am it bothers me all right it bothers me all right it bothers me all right I'll say something stupid soon enough I'll say something stupid soon enough I'll say something stupid soon enough don't worry about it uh but he said now don't worry about it uh but he said now don't worry about it uh but he said now we were talking about uh terrorists and we were talking about uh terrorists and we were talking about uh terrorists and non-negotiating with terrorists uh is non-negotiating with terrorists uh is non-negotiating with terrorists uh is there something nice job going all the there something nice job going all the there something nice job going all the way back to where that rabbit hole way back to where that rabbit hole way back to where that rabbit hole started there's where rabbit where Alice started there's where rabbit where Alice started there's where rabbit where Alice in Wonderland right now the the is there in Wonderland right now the the is there in Wonderland right now the the is there something about walking away something about walking away something about walking away of not negotiating is that is there of not negotiating is that is there of not negotiating is that is there power in that all right so it depends power in that all right so it depends power in that all right so it depends upon whether or not yeah upon whether or not yeah upon whether or not yeah you're doing it with Integrity or a you're doing it with Integrity or a you're doing it with Integrity or a tactic to start with tactic to start with tactic to start with um and then also um and then also um and then also uh hostage negotiators are successful 93 uh hostage negotiators are successful 93 uh hostage negotiators are successful 93 of the time of the time of the time kind of across the board kind of across the board kind of across the board which means that there's seven percent which means that there's seven percent which means that there's seven percent of the time is going to go bad of the time is going to go bad of the time is going to go bad and that was my old boss Gary nessner I and that was my old boss Gary nessner I and that was my old boss Gary nessner I learned so much from Gary

learned so much from Gary learned so much from Gary but one of the phrase that he used over but one of the phrase that he used over but one of the phrase that he used over and over and over again until I finally and over and over again until I finally and over and over again until I finally worked the case and went bad was this is worked the case and went bad was this is worked the case and went bad was this is going to be the best chance of success going to be the best chance of success going to be the best chance of success best chance of success and then best chance of success and then best chance of success and then something went bad and I remember something went bad and I remember something went bad and I remember thinking like well best chance of thinking like well best chance of thinking like well best chance of success it's no guarantee of success success it's no guarantee of success success it's no guarantee of success so your question is are there so your question is are there so your question is are there negotiations you should walk away from negotiations you should walk away from negotiations you should walk away from if you got no shot at success then then if you got no shot at success then then if you got no shot at success then then don't negotiate don't negotiate don't negotiate and there you have to accept the fact and there you have to accept the fact and there you have to accept the fact that some deals you never you're never that some deals you never you're never that some deals you never you're never going to make you know we teach you my going to make you know we teach you my going to make you know we teach you my company it's not a sin to not get the company it's not a sin to not get the company it's not a sin to not get the deal it's a sin to take a long time to deal it's a sin to take a long time to deal it's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal not get the deal not get the deal and you know Gary in His Infinite Wisdom and you know Gary in His Infinite Wisdom and you know Gary in His Infinite Wisdom you know they they realized that there you know they they realized that there you know they they realized that there was something called suicide by Cobb was something called suicide by Cobb was something called suicide by Cobb and that it might have Gary was very and that it might have Gary was very and that it might have Gary was very much into clusters of behavior he kept much into clusters of behavior he kept much into clusters of behavior he kept us away from psychological terms and us away from psychological terms and us away from psychological terms and there would be clusters of behavior that there would be clusters of behavior that there would be clusters of behavior that would be high risk indicators and he and would be high risk indicators and he and would be high risk indicators and he and he wrote a block of instruction called he wrote a block of instruction called he wrote a block of instruction called high risk indicators high risk indicators high risk indicators which meant if you start seeing this which meant if you start seeing this which meant if you start seeing this stuff show up this thing's probably stuff show up this thing's probably stuff show up this thing's probably going bad and you're going to need to going bad and you're going to need to going bad and you're going to need to you're going to need to recognize that you're going to need to recognize that you're going to need to recognize that from the very beginning and adjust from the very beginning and adjust from the very beginning and adjust accordingly and it's the same way in in accordingly and it's the same way in in accordingly and it's the same way in in business and personal life I'm talking business and personal life I'm talking business and personal life I'm talking to the head of a a marketing company I to the head of a a marketing company I to the head of a a marketing company I have tremendous respect for I admire have tremendous respect for I admire have tremendous respect for I admire that what this guy in this company does that what this guy in this company does that what this guy in this company does started from scratch started from scratch started from scratch he borrowed space in the back of a he borrowed space in the back of a he borrowed space in the back of a drugstore drugstore drugstore to start his company to start his company to start his company and now it's usually successful and he's

and now it's usually successful and he's and now it's usually successful and he's laying out to me laying out to me laying out to me that he finally had to confront that he finally had to confront that he finally had to confront um a potential client um a potential client um a potential client and walk away from and walk away from and walk away from him and he said how do you think I him and he said how do you think I him and he said how do you think I handle this and my answer was thousand handle this and my answer was thousand handle this and my answer was thousand percent correct and as a matter of fact percent correct and as a matter of fact percent correct and as a matter of fact the behavior that he indicated he's a the behavior that he indicated he's a the behavior that he indicated he's a type type type and you should have walked away sooner and you should have walked away sooner and you should have walked away sooner than you did than you did than you did because this guy was playing here the because this guy was playing here the because this guy was playing here the whole time Al Qaeda 2004 they're playing whole time Al Qaeda 2004 they're playing whole time Al Qaeda 2004 they're playing us they're not negotiating us they're not negotiating us they're not negotiating we need we called them out on it we need we called them out on it we need we called them out on it I don't think you're negotiating I don't think you're negotiating I don't think you're negotiating you wouldn't say it exactly like that you wouldn't say it exactly like that you wouldn't say it exactly like that but that was that was absolutely the but that was that was absolutely the but that was that was absolutely the approach approach approach you know confront people on their you know confront people on their you know confront people on their behavior in a respectful way behavior in a respectful way behavior in a respectful way and signal that you're willing to walk and signal that you're willing to walk and signal that you're willing to walk away and mean it a thousand percent and away and mean it a thousand percent and away and mean it a thousand percent and mean it isn't that terrifying I mean mean it isn't that terrifying I mean mean it isn't that terrifying I mean it's scary because you don't want to it's scary because you don't want to it's scary because you don't want to really walk away or do you have to really walk away or do you have to really walk away or do you have to really want to walk away well yeah this really want to walk away well yeah this really want to walk away well yeah this this gets core values your view of this gets core values your view of this gets core values your view of reality if it's an abundant world it's reality if it's an abundant world it's reality if it's an abundant world it's not scary to walk away not scary to walk away not scary to walk away if it's a finite world with limited if it's a finite world with limited if it's a finite world with limited opportunities then it's horrifying but you have to uh use that world view but you have to uh use that world view to be willing to actually walk away here here it could be walking away from a lot of it could be walking away from a lot of it could be walking away from a lot of money money money it could be walking away from something it could be walking away from something it could be walking away from something that's gonna hurt people that's gonna hurt people that's gonna hurt people because if you lose a hostage because if you lose a hostage because if you lose a hostage yeah well but if they're not gonna let

yeah well but if they're not gonna let yeah well but if they're not gonna let the hostage out yeah suicide by cop they the hostage out yeah suicide by cop they the hostage out yeah suicide by cop they let them go the seven percent how do most the seven percent how do most negotiations fail the bad guys were never there to make a the bad guys were never there to make a deal in the first place if it was deal in the first place if it was deal in the first place if it was suicide by cop suicide by cop suicide by cop if they were there if they were there if they were there to if they're on a killing Journey to if they're on a killing Journey to if they're on a killing Journey it's an Israeli phrase it's an Israeli phrase it's an Israeli phrase um if they're on a killing journey and um if they're on a killing journey and um if they're on a killing journey and the actions that they're currently the actions that they're currently the actions that they're currently engaged in are part of that killing engaged in are part of that killing engaged in are part of that killing Journey Journey Journey killing journey is there advice you can killing journey is there advice you can killing journey is there advice you can give about you mentioned uh give about you mentioned uh give about you mentioned uh israel-palestine the Middle East israel-palestine the Middle East israel-palestine the Middle East taking on a few conversations on that taking on a few conversations on that taking on a few conversations on that topic is there hope for that part of the topic is there hope for that part of the topic is there hope for that part of the world and from that hope is there some world and from that hope is there some world and from that hope is there some advice you could lend yeah I think I advice you could lend yeah I think I advice you could lend yeah I think I think I think there's hope there's think I think there's hope there's think I think there's hope there's then I got friends on both sides then I got friends on both sides then I got friends on both sides and um also and um also and um also when I got my after I left the FBI when I got my after I left the FBI when I got my after I left the FBI um most people listen to this probably um most people listen to this probably um most people listen to this probably not going to remember who Rodney not going to remember who Rodney not going to remember who Rodney Dangerfield was oh come on buddy still Dangerfield was oh come on buddy still Dangerfield was oh come on buddy still doesn't get in your respect yeah yeah doesn't get in your respect yeah yeah doesn't get in your respect yeah yeah yeah and and uh New York is he a New yeah and and uh New York is he a New yeah and and uh New York is he a New Yorker I think he was the New York I Yorker I think he was the New York I Yorker I think he was the New York I like Jersey or something yeah like Jersey or something yeah like Jersey or something yeah yeah and um he did a movie a long time yeah and um he did a movie a long time yeah and um he did a movie a long time ago called back to school he went back ago called back to school he went back ago called back to school he went back to school he's an old guy back to school to school he's an old guy back to school to school he's an old guy back to school so I went back to school after I left so I went back to school after I left so I went back to school after I left the FBI I did get the FBI I did get the FBI I did get um a masters at Harvard Kennedy um a masters at Harvard Kennedy um a masters at Harvard Kennedy and that's where you know I'm running

and that's where you know I'm running and that's where you know I'm running across people on both sides of that across people on both sides of that across people on both sides of that and when they could talk and when they could talk and when they could talk they said let's start from the promise they said let's start from the promise they said let's start from the promise that we both sides want a better life that we both sides want a better life that we both sides want a better life for our kids for our kids for our kids which is his version which is his version which is his version that I was telling you um earlier from that I was telling you um earlier from that I was telling you um earlier from Tom gerardi let's pick a point in the Tom gerardi let's pick a point in the Tom gerardi let's pick a point in the future yeah that we're both happy with future yeah that we're both happy with future yeah that we're both happy with and they found us they could talk and they found us they could talk and they found us they could talk you know we all right so it might not be you know we all right so it might not be you know we all right so it might not be better for us how do we make it better better for us how do we make it better better for us how do we make it better for our kids for our kids for our kids and that that's where the the Hope and that that's where the the Hope and that that's where the the Hope derives from because I think both sides derives from because I think both sides derives from because I think both sides ultimately wanted to be better for their ultimately wanted to be better for their ultimately wanted to be better for their kids which is why kids which is why kids which is why they still engage in interactions and they still engage in interactions and they still engage in interactions and which is why I think the leadership which is why I think the leadership which is why I think the leadership regardless of how regardless of how regardless of how compromised they might be on either side compromised they might be on either side compromised they might be on either side there are few straight players in the there are few straight players in the there are few straight players in the game in the Middle East game in the Middle East game in the Middle East or anywhere for that matter or anywhere for that matter or anywhere for that matter um um um but they want a better future for their but they want a better future for their but they want a better future for their kids you get people to agree that you kids you get people to agree that you kids you get people to agree that you want a better future for your kids now want a better future for your kids now want a better future for your kids now you start talking about well how do we you start talking about well how do we you start talking about well how do we work our way back from that and then all work our way back from that and then all work our way back from that and then all right so we got a mutual point in the right so we got a mutual point in the right so we got a mutual point in the future the israeli-palestinian future the israeli-palestinian future the israeli-palestinian negotiations negotiations negotiations also uh for me interesting because you also uh for me interesting because you also uh for me interesting because you mentioned Clubhouse about almost two mentioned Clubhouse about almost two mentioned Clubhouse about almost two years ago now years ago now years ago now um when Israeli Israel was shelling Gaza um when Israeli Israel was shelling Gaza um when Israeli Israel was shelling Gaza they hit the UPI office they hit the UPI office they hit the UPI office you know they were hitting they they got you know they were hitting they they got you know they were hitting they they got fed up with the rocket attacks from fed up with the rocket attacks from fed up with the rocket attacks from Hamas and of course Hamas is putting Hamas and of course Hamas is putting Hamas and of course Hamas is putting rockets in the UPI office or the AP rockets in the UPI office or the AP rockets in the UPI office or the AP office whichever press office it was

office whichever press office it was office whichever press office it was there how's that office going to be there how's that office going to be there how's that office going to be there otherwise Hamas is running a show there otherwise Hamas is running a show there otherwise Hamas is running a show you're not going to run that office you're not going to run that office you're not going to run that office unless they let you unless you let them unless they let you unless you let them unless they let you unless you let them store weapons there that's just part of store weapons there that's just part of store weapons there that's just part of the game the game the game and and where are they gonna are they and and where are they gonna are they and and where are they gonna are they gonna storm in specially designated gonna storm in specially designated gonna storm in specially designated ammunition dumps no they're going to put ammunition dumps no they're going to put ammunition dumps no they're going to put them in schools they're going to put them in schools they're going to put them in schools they're going to put them in hospitals they're going to put them in hospitals they're going to put them in hospitals they're going to put them in all places that when Israel had them in all places that when Israel had them in all places that when Israel had some they're going to look really bad some they're going to look really bad some they're going to look really bad so after a while Israel gets fed up they so after a while Israel gets fed up they so after a while Israel gets fed up they start shelling Gaza and they're hitting start shelling Gaza and they're hitting start shelling Gaza and they're hitting these places these places these places a friend of mine Nicole Benham a friend of mine Nicole Benham a friend of mine Nicole Benham is um hosting rooms on clubhouse and she is um hosting rooms on clubhouse and she is um hosting rooms on clubhouse and she says you got to come on the vitriol is says you got to come on the vitriol is says you got to come on the vitriol is killing me these are all turned into killing me these are all turned into killing me these are all turned into screaming matches nobody's talking to screaming matches nobody's talking to screaming matches nobody's talking to anybody anybody anybody I said all right cool we'll go on we'll I said all right cool we'll go on we'll I said all right cool we'll go on we'll we'll do it and watch we won't have a we'll do it and watch we won't have a we'll do it and watch we won't have a single argument single argument single argument we'll invite people on from both sides we'll invite people on from both sides we'll invite people on from both sides the only there was one rule the only there was one rule the only there was one rule before you started to describe what you before you started to describe what you before you started to describe what you thought of the other side thought of the other side thought of the other side you had to say before I disagree with you had to say before I disagree with you had to say before I disagree with you here's what I think your position is you here's what I think your position is you here's what I think your position is and you got to continue to stay at the and you got to continue to stay at the and you got to continue to stay at the other side's position until they agree other side's position until they agree other side's position until they agree that you've gotten that you've gotten that you've gotten now what happened now what happened now what happened no agreement and no arguments no agreement and no arguments no agreement and no arguments that was what we were really going for that was what we were really going for that was what we were really going for we wanted to show that people we wanted to show that people we wanted to show that people on both sides in one of their emotional on both sides in one of their emotional on both sides in one of their emotional time frames if your only requirement was time frames if your only requirement was time frames if your only requirement was you had to State the other side's you had to State the other side's you had to State the other side's position first

position first position first nobody got out of control nobody got out of control nobody got out of control did it work did it work did it work that's exactly what happened not one we that's exactly what happened not one we that's exactly what happened not one we wanted to show people that you can have wanted to show people that you can have wanted to show people that you can have conversations that do not devolve conversations that do not devolve conversations that do not devolve into screaming matches with vitriol into screaming matches with vitriol into screaming matches with vitriol talking about how you're dedicated to talking about how you're dedicated to talking about how you're dedicated to the destruction of the other side just the destruction of the other side just the destruction of the other side just first first first see if you can outline where they're see if you can outline where they're see if you can outline where they're coming from that's really impressive coming from that's really impressive coming from that's really impressive because I've just having seen on because I've just having seen on because I've just having seen on clubhouse people clubhouse people clubhouse people which part of the reason I liked which part of the reason I liked which part of the reason I liked Clubhouse you get to hear voices from Clubhouse you get to hear voices from Clubhouse you get to hear voices from all sides they were emotionally intense all sides they were emotionally intense all sides they were emotionally intense right it was uh I mean I was I'm sweating just it was uh I mean I was I'm sweating just in the build up of your story here I in the build up of your story here I in the build up of your story here I thought it's gonna go could go to hell thought it's gonna go could go to hell thought it's gonna go could go to hell but you're saying it kind of worked now but you're saying it kind of worked now but you're saying it kind of worked now to one person lost control of the two to one person lost control of the two to one person lost control of the two sides the people that were speaking on sides the people that were speaking on sides the people that were speaking on behalf of the Israelis were a little behalf of the Israelis were a little behalf of the Israelis were a little better yeah at articulating uh better yeah at articulating uh better yeah at articulating uh supportive positions for the supportive positions for the supportive positions for the Palestinians Palestinians Palestinians most of the people who want to speak up most of the people who want to speak up most of the people who want to speak up on behalf of the Palestinians they just on behalf of the Palestinians they just on behalf of the Palestinians they just they they'd want to start in like you're they they'd want to start in like you're they they'd want to start in like you're doing this and I'd say no no no you can doing this and I'd say no no no you can doing this and I'd say no no no you can go there just not yet before you go that go there just not yet before you go that go there just not yet before you go that you say that all you want you say that all you want you say that all you want before you go there before you go there before you go there you've got to try to articulate to them you've got to try to articulate to them you've got to try to articulate to them where they're coming from they got to where they're coming from they got to where they're coming from they got to tell you got it right and what would tell you got it right and what would tell you got it right and what would consistently happen consistently happen consistently happen is there's a leveling out of a person to

is there's a leveling out of a person to is there's a leveling out of a person to try to see the other side's perspective try to see the other side's perspective try to see the other side's perspective and articulate it it's enormously and articulate it it's enormously and articulate it it's enormously beneficial to the person who's trying to beneficial to the person who's trying to beneficial to the person who's trying to do it which was really the point that we do it which was really the point that we do it which was really the point that we were trying to make it's a really were trying to make it's a really were trying to make it's a really interesting exercise I mean that that by interesting exercise I mean that that by interesting exercise I mean that that by way of advice so if it works at way of advice so if it works at way of advice so if it works at Clubhouse for people who don't know Clubhouse for people who don't know Clubhouse for people who don't know that's a it's like a voice app where you that's a it's like a voice app where you that's a it's like a voice app where you can be anonymous that's really regular can be anonymous that's really regular can be anonymous that's really regular people but regular people who can also people but regular people who can also people but regular people who can also be anonymous it's just it could be chaos be anonymous it's just it could be chaos be anonymous it's just it could be chaos if it works there that's really if it works there that's really if it works there that's really interesting for uh when you sit down for interesting for uh when you sit down for interesting for uh when you sit down for a conversation across the table from a conversation across the table from a conversation across the table from somebody somebody somebody don't have them even steal me on the don't have them even steal me on the don't have them even steal me on the other side have them just state other side have them just state other side have them just state the other side the other side the other side just just just just just just explain your understanding of it yeah explain your understanding of it yeah explain your understanding of it yeah that's it and every now and then I would that's it and every now and then I would that's it and every now and then I would jump in jump in jump in like you know and there's somebody like you know and there's somebody like you know and there's somebody supporting Israel you know whoever the supporting Israel you know whoever the supporting Israel you know whoever the heck they were heck they were heck they were and they they say a couple things and they they say a couple things and they they say a couple things and the Palestinian guy would be like and the Palestinian guy would be like and the Palestinian guy would be like Argyle or supportive of them would say Argyle or supportive of them would say Argyle or supportive of them would say you know you miss some stuff and I'd say you know you miss some stuff and I'd say you know you miss some stuff and I'd say let me jump in let me jump in let me jump in first of all I know what the Knack by is first of all I know what the Knack by is first of all I know what the Knack by is the catastrophe that's the day Israel the catastrophe that's the day Israel the catastrophe that's the day Israel was born you you know for the rest of was born you you know for the rest of was born you you know for the rest of the world's birth of Israel for you to the world's birth of Israel for you to the world's birth of Israel for you to nakba I said you've got members of your nakba I said you've got members of your nakba I said you've got members of your family family family that is still walking around carrying that is still walking around carrying that is still walking around carrying keys to the front door of the house they keys to the front door of the house they keys to the front door of the house they abandoned abandoned abandoned and they'd be like yeah

and they'd be like yeah and they'd be like yeah and I'd say you feel bad that in point and I'd say you feel bad that in point and I'd say you feel bad that in point of fact that in World War II the world stood back and watched the world stood back and watched while the Nazis threw the Jews off a while the Nazis threw the Jews off a while the Nazis threw the Jews off a building building building the only problem was they landed on you and they'd be like yeah and they'd be like yeah that's where they're coming from so articulating you know deeply what the so articulating you know deeply what the other side feels is transformative for other side feels is transformative for other side feels is transformative for both people involved in a process what's the toughest negotiation you've what's the toughest negotiation you've ever been a part of or maybe observed or ever been a part of or maybe observed or ever been a part of or maybe observed or heard of heard of heard of what's a difficult case you what's a difficult case you what's a difficult case you just stands out to you or maybe you just just stands out to you or maybe you just just stands out to you or maybe you just want one of many want one of many want one of many well the uh the stuff we went through uh well the uh the stuff we went through uh well the uh the stuff we went through uh without Qaeda without Qaeda without Qaeda um in and around Iraq Iraq in Saudi um in and around Iraq Iraq in Saudi um in and around Iraq Iraq in Saudi first one was in Saudi in 2004 time first one was in Saudi in 2004 time first one was in Saudi in 2004 time frame frame frame the hardest part about that was working the hardest part about that was working the hardest part about that was working with family members with family members with family members and not deceiving them and not deceiving them and not deceiving them about the possibility outcome yeah how about the possibility outcome yeah how about the possibility outcome yeah how do you talk to family members is that do you talk to family members is that do you talk to family members is that part of the negotiation yeah empathy part of the negotiation yeah empathy part of the negotiation yeah empathy learning empathy the hard way learning empathy the hard way learning empathy the hard way and then being able to take it up to and then being able to take it up to and then being able to take it up to higher levels because at its base level higher levels because at its base level higher levels because at its base level um a guy that we're working with now um a guy that we're working with now um a guy that we're working with now that's coaching Us in the U.S and as a that's coaching Us in the U.S and as a that's coaching Us in the U.S and as a business partner his name is Jonathan

business partner his name is Jonathan business partner his name is Jonathan Smith he pointed out to us Smith he pointed out to us Smith he pointed out to us that there's kind of there's a shuhari that there's kind of there's a shuhari that there's kind of there's a shuhari concept are you familiar with shoe concept are you familiar with shoe concept are you familiar with shoe Harvey it's a martial arts concept Harvey it's a martial arts concept Harvey it's a martial arts concept and she was and she was and she was um do it exactly as the master is um do it exactly as the master is um do it exactly as the master is telling you to do it wax on wax off telling you to do it wax on wax off telling you to do it wax on wax off karate kid stuff aha is when you've done the reputation aha is when you've done the reputation repetitions enough times you're getting repetitions enough times you're getting repetitions enough times you're getting a feel for it a feel for it a feel for it and you begin to see the same lessons and you begin to see the same lessons and you begin to see the same lessons coming from other Masters you're seeing coming from other Masters you're seeing coming from other Masters you're seeing the same thing show up in other places and at the re-level and at the re-level you're still in the discipline you're still in the discipline you're still in the discipline but you're making up your own rules but you're making up your own rules but you're making up your own rules it's almost a flow state it's almost a flow state it's almost a flow state and you don't realize and you don't realize and you don't realize that you're making up your own rules and that you're making up your own rules and that you're making up your own rules and if somebody asks you where you learned if somebody asks you where you learned if somebody asks you where you learned that that that you probably say you probably say you probably say I you know my my Sensei taught it to me I you know my my Sensei taught it to me I you know my my Sensei taught it to me my master taught it to me um this will come back around the um this will come back around the negotiating with families pretty quick negotiating with families pretty quick negotiating with families pretty quick we did this once because there's a bunch we did this once because there's a bunch we did this once because there's a bunch of people that we coach of people that we coach of people that we coach um business people that are scared of um business people that are scared of um business people that are scared of the amount of money that they're losing the amount of money that they're losing the amount of money that they're losing if we're not coaching them regularly if we're not coaching them regularly if we're not coaching them regularly one of these guys Michael we're one of these guys Michael we're one of these guys Michael we're interviewing him interviewing him interviewing him for a social media posting about two for a social media posting about two for a social media posting about two years ago years ago years ago and Michael says yeah you know you got and Michael says yeah you know you got and Michael says yeah you know you got to gather data with your eyes to gather data with your eyes to gather data with your eyes and I remember thinking and I went whoa and I remember thinking and I went whoa and I remember thinking and I went whoa I like that I like that I like that I said where did you hear that before I said where did you hear that before I said where did you hear that before and he goes you know I don't know I

and he goes you know I don't know I and he goes you know I don't know I heard it from you I think and I was like heard it from you I think and I was like heard it from you I think and I was like no no no no no no no no no I didn't remember saying that yeah for I didn't remember saying that yeah for I didn't remember saying that yeah for at that first time I've heard that he's at that first time I've heard that he's at that first time I've heard that he's in re in re in re so what's this got to do with families so what's this got to do with families so what's this got to do with families empathy at its base level in a shoe empathy at its base level in a shoe empathy at its base level in a shoe level I learned it on the suicide level I learned it on the suicide level I learned it on the suicide hotline is saying like hotline is saying like hotline is saying like you sound angry you sound angry you sound angry I'm just calling out the elephant a room I'm just calling out the elephant a room I'm just calling out the elephant a room your your emotions what's driving you your your emotions what's driving you your your emotions what's driving you I'm throwing a label on your affect I'm throwing a label on your affect I'm throwing a label on your affect and I'm saying you sound or it sounds and I'm saying you sound or it sounds and I'm saying you sound or it sounds like you are like you are like you are because that's the basic Karate Kid wax because that's the basic Karate Kid wax because that's the basic Karate Kid wax on wax off on wax off on wax off approach approach approach now there are a lot of Hostage now there are a lot of Hostage now there are a lot of Hostage negotiators that'll tell you empathy negotiators that'll tell you empathy negotiators that'll tell you empathy doesn't work at home not true they've doesn't work at home not true they've doesn't work at home not true they've never gotten out of shoe you're getting ready to talk to your you're getting ready to talk to your significant other significant other significant other and you want to go someplace and you want to go someplace and you want to go someplace that you know is going to make her angry that you know is going to make her angry that you know is going to make her angry you want to go do something now that's you want to go do something now that's you want to go do something now that's real negotiation right there you could real negotiation right there you could real negotiation right there you could say to say to say to you sound angry in which case she's you sound angry in which case she's you sound angry in which case she's going to blow up because her reaction is going to blow up because her reaction is going to blow up because her reaction is you made me angry bozo you made me angry bozo you made me angry bozo how can you act like you're an innocent how can you act like you're an innocent how can you act like you're an innocent third party or that you were independent third party or that you were independent third party or that you were independent of how I feel bad of how I feel bad of how I feel bad and you learn learn a little bit more and you learn learn a little bit more and you learn learn a little bit more and you say and you say and you say the the high level is is probably going the the high level is is probably going the the high level is is probably going to make you angry I knew how they felt before I walked on

I knew how they felt before I walked on the door the door the door I knew that they were scared to death I knew that they were scared to death I knew that they were scared to death you find out that your your your husband you find out that your your your husband you find out that your your your husband your father your brother has been your father your brother has been your father your brother has been grabbed by Al-Qaeda who are in the grabbed by Al-Qaeda who are in the grabbed by Al-Qaeda who are in the business of chopping people's heads off business of chopping people's heads off business of chopping people's heads off you're going to be horrified I can't you're going to be horrified I can't you're going to be horrified I can't walk into them and go like you sound walk into them and go like you sound walk into them and go like you sound angry angry angry of course I'm angry you idiot of course I'm angry you idiot of course I'm angry you idiot but knowing what they are I used to walk but knowing what they are I used to walk but knowing what they are I used to walk into family's houses into family's houses into family's houses and I'd say I know you're angry and I'd say I know you're angry and I'd say I know you're angry now what it now what are the now what it now what are the now what it now what are the circumstances dictate that they should circumstances dictate that they should circumstances dictate that they should also feel also feel also feel they're going to feel abandoned by their they're going to feel abandoned by their they're going to feel abandoned by their government they're going to feel totally government they're going to feel totally government they're going to feel totally alone alone alone they're going to be scared they're going to be scared they're going to be scared and they're going to be angry and they're going to be angry and they're going to be angry because they feel the government abandon because they feel the government abandon because they feel the government abandon them now they're in point of fact is them now they're in point of fact is them now they're in point of fact is this an accurate statement this an accurate statement this an accurate statement that their loved one voluntarily went that their loved one voluntarily went that their loved one voluntarily went into a war zone and voluntarily went into a war zone and voluntarily went into a war zone and voluntarily went someplace their government told them not someplace their government told them not someplace their government told them not to go to go to go are the facts that the government are the facts that the government are the facts that the government abandoned them absolutely not as a abandoned them absolutely not as a abandoned them absolutely not as a matter of fact the government won't matter of fact the government won't matter of fact the government won't tried to get them to knock out when they tried to get them to knock out when they tried to get them to knock out when they went anyway went anyway went anyway but that doesn't change how they felt in but that doesn't change how they felt in but that doesn't change how they felt in the moment the moment the moment and I'd walk into a house and I go I and I'd walk into a house and I go I and I'd walk into a house and I go I know you're angry know you're angry know you're angry I know you feel abandoned and alone I know you feel abandoned and alone I know you feel abandoned and alone and I know you're horrified and I know and I know you're horrified and I know and I know you're horrified and I know you feel the United States government you feel the United States government you feel the United States government has abandoned you has abandoned you has abandoned you and I would look at me and go like and I would look at me and go like and I would look at me and go like yeah yeah yeah what do we do now what do we do now what do we do now now we're ready to rock

is there uh with Al-Qaeda or in general is there uh with Al-Qaeda or in general is there a language barrier too it could is there a language barrier too it could is there a language barrier too it could be just barriers of different be just barriers of different be just barriers of different communication Styles I mean you got like communication Styles I mean you got like communication Styles I mean you got like a New Yorker way about it a New Yorker way about it a New Yorker way about it that might make somebody from like that might make somebody from like that might make somebody from like I don't know Laguna Beach uncomfortable do you feel that language barrier and do you feel that language barrier and communication is communication is communication is um that the language and communication um that the language and communication um that the language and communication style and itself creating a barrier you style and itself creating a barrier you style and itself creating a barrier you got a barrier when you think that your got a barrier when you think that your got a barrier when you think that your way is the way sure that's the biggest way is the way sure that's the biggest way is the way sure that's the biggest barrier yeah like and that happens all barrier yeah like and that happens all barrier yeah like and that happens all the time the time the time um when people talk about what about um when people talk about what about um when people talk about what about cross-cultural negotiations cross-cultural negotiations cross-cultural negotiations you know uh what hand do I gotta shake you know uh what hand do I gotta shake you know uh what hand do I gotta shake hands with sure so that I can get my way hands with sure so that I can get my way hands with sure so that I can get my way [Music] [Music] [Music] well if you strip it all down we're all well if you strip it all down we're all well if you strip it all down we're all we're all basically the same blanks like we're all basically the same blanks like we're all basically the same blanks like when we were born we gotta everybody's when we were born we gotta everybody's when we were born we gotta everybody's got a limbic system everybody's limbic got a limbic system everybody's limbic got a limbic system everybody's limbic system works pretty much the same way system works pretty much the same way system works pretty much the same way people are driven by the same sorts of people are driven by the same sorts of people are driven by the same sorts of decisions how does this affect my future decisions how does this affect my future decisions how does this affect my future one of my risk of losing how does this one of my risk of losing how does this one of my risk of losing how does this affect my identity you know I kind of affect my identity you know I kind of affect my identity you know I kind of kidnapper kidnapper kidnapper your New York City businessman you're a your New York City businessman you're a your New York City businessman you're a tobacco Farmer in the south tobacco Farmer in the south tobacco Farmer in the south all making those same same decisions all making those same same decisions all making those same same decisions based on those same things based on those same things based on those same things so as soon as I start to navigate that so as soon as I start to navigate that so as soon as I start to navigate that and and and I tailor my Approach which is what I tailor my Approach which is what I tailor my Approach which is what empathy is to what you think how you see empathy is to what you think how you see empathy is to what you think how you see things things things so I can be

so I can be so I can be the biggest goofball ever from the biggest goofball ever from the biggest goofball ever from if you live in the south yeah maybe I'm if you live in the south yeah maybe I'm if you live in the south yeah maybe I'm a New Yorker or I'm somebody from LA or a New Yorker or I'm somebody from LA or a New Yorker or I'm somebody from LA or somebody from Chicago somebody from Chicago somebody from Chicago but my geography is foreign to you but but my geography is foreign to you but but my geography is foreign to you but as soon as I start dialing in on how you as soon as I start dialing in on how you as soon as I start dialing in on how you see things see things see things suddenly you're listening what about the three voices you talk what about the three voices you talk about the different voices you can use about the different voices you can use about the different voices you can use in that communication right The in that communication right The in that communication right The assertive's Voice direct and honest assertive's Voice direct and honest assertive's Voice direct and honest I'm a natural born assertive I'm a natural born assertive I'm a natural born assertive Natural Born I thought we're all Blank Natural Born I thought we're all Blank Natural Born I thought we're all Blank Slate it's your boy stop catching me on Slate it's your boy stop catching me on Slate it's your boy stop catching me on what I said how dare you through accuse what I said how dare you through accuse what I said how dare you through accuse me of what I've said to quote Bono I me of what I've said to quote Bono I me of what I've said to quote Bono I Stand Accused of what I've said the Stand Accused of what I've said the Stand Accused of what I've said the things I've said that's a good line he's things I've said that's a good line he's things I've said that's a good line he's got a few good lines got a few good lines got a few good lines yeah so assertive voice you're born that yeah so assertive voice you're born that yeah so assertive voice you're born that way which one uh what are the other ones way which one uh what are the other ones way which one uh what are the other ones uh analyst uh analyst uh analyst you're an analyst you're an analyst you're an analyst and I can tell you're assertive yeah what's the analyst voice yeah what's the analyst voice well an analyst is close the smarter well an analyst is close the smarter well an analyst is close the smarter more thoughtful look you ever do a decision tree yeah look you ever do a decision tree yeah see you like it too don't you see you like it too don't you see you like it too don't you so decision trees you know there's I'm a so decision trees you know there's I'm a so decision trees you know there's I'm a computer scientist so we have I like computer scientist so we have I like computer scientist so we have I like mathematical uh systematic ways of mathematical uh systematic ways of mathematical uh systematic ways of seeing the world it's an analyst

seeing the world it's an analyst seeing the world it's an analyst you think Donald Trump would ever say you think Donald Trump would ever say you think Donald Trump would ever say that that that unlikely unlikely unlikely well is he more of the assertive kind well is he more of the assertive kind well is he more of the assertive kind he's a natural born assertive yeah yeah he's a natural born assertive yeah yeah he's a natural born assertive yeah yeah are all New Yorkers like this is this are all New Yorkers like this is this are all New Yorkers like this is this someone something in the water no that's someone something in the water no that's someone something in the water no that's a crazy thing I mean there's an affect a crazy thing I mean there's an affect a crazy thing I mean there's an affect that a city can have yeah that a city can have yeah that a city can have yeah and um you know New York's Northeast not and um you know New York's Northeast not and um you know New York's Northeast not just New York just New York just New York but the Northeast is is a little more but the Northeast is is a little more but the Northeast is is a little more the the the affect yeah of the area of the the the affect yeah of the area of the the the affect yeah of the area of the culture of the area the individuals the culture of the area the individuals the culture of the area the individuals individuals still boil down into the individuals still boil down into the individuals still boil down into the three types cross-abort what's the third three types cross-abort what's the third three types cross-abort what's the third one one one um accommodator smiling optimistic um accommodator smiling optimistic um accommodator smiling optimistic hopeful yeah I'm 100 a thousand percent hopeful yeah I'm 100 a thousand percent hopeful yeah I'm 100 a thousand percent convinced that the phrase hope is not a convinced that the phrase hope is not a convinced that the phrase hope is not a strategy strategy strategy is designed at people's frustration over is designed at people's frustration over is designed at people's frustration over a third of the population being a third of the population being a third of the population being accommodators that are hope driven accommodators that are hope driven accommodators that are hope driven I hope this works out and they're very relationship they on and they're very relationship they on the surface they're very relationship the surface they're very relationship the surface they're very relationship oriented they tend to appear to be very oriented they tend to appear to be very oriented they tend to appear to be very positive and they are positive and they are positive and they are but it's really built around hope and but it's really built around hope and but it's really built around hope and the idea is you can adopt these three the idea is you can adopt these three the idea is you can adopt these three voices you can yeah you can learn them voices you can yeah you can learn them voices you can yeah you can learn them they're all learnable they're all learnable they're all learnable the analysts the analysts the analysts are often mistaken for accommodators are often mistaken for accommodators are often mistaken for accommodators because as you said before because as you said before because as you said before you know analysts are more introspective you know analysts are more introspective you know analysts are more introspective more analytical more analytical more analytical they're looking at the systems at work they're looking at the systems at work they're looking at the systems at work and

and and if if if um if they like to learn um if they like to learn um if they like to learn they notice they notice they notice that accommodators make more deals than that accommodators make more deals than that accommodators make more deals than they make they also notice that there's they make they also notice that there's they make they also notice that there's a higher failure rate of the deals a higher failure rate of the deals a higher failure rate of the deals but since they notice stuff and they but since they notice stuff and they but since they notice stuff and they think about it think about it think about it they catch on faster than asserters do they catch on faster than asserters do they catch on faster than asserters do that the pleasant nature of an ant of an that the pleasant nature of an ant of an that the pleasant nature of an ant of an accommodator contributes strongly to accommodator contributes strongly to accommodator contributes strongly to them making deals them making deals them making deals like my daughter-in-law like my daughter-in-law like my daughter-in-law um is an analyst you know another um is an analyst you know another um is an analyst you know another another descriptor we have in that an another descriptor we have in that an another descriptor we have in that an analysts are assassins analysts are assassins analysts are assassins you know an analyst will snap you from a you know an analyst will snap you from a you know an analyst will snap you from a thousand yards out in the middle of the thousand yards out in the middle of the thousand yards out in the middle of the night night night and you never know what hit you and and you never know what hit you and and you never know what hit you and they're really happy with that but uh has how has assertiveness the but uh has how has assertiveness the assertive voice served you in assertive voice served you in assertive voice served you in negotiation poorly negotiation poorly negotiation poorly that's the sort of voice that's the sort of voice that's the sort of voice is almost always counterproductive it is almost always counterproductive it is almost always counterproductive it feels like getting hit in the face with feels like getting hit in the face with feels like getting hit in the face with a brick a brick a brick and that's almost always and that's almost always and that's almost always counterproductive so for me to be more counterproductive so for me to be more counterproductive so for me to be more effective especially in a negotiation effective especially in a negotiation effective especially in a negotiation I'll need to slow slow down I'll need to slow slow down I'll need to slow slow down and smile and smile and smile you know I heard that uh Teddy Roosevelt you know I heard that uh Teddy Roosevelt you know I heard that uh Teddy Roosevelt was a good negotiator and then he was was a good negotiator and then he was was a good negotiator and then he was extremely stubborn extremely stubborn extremely stubborn and perhaps the right term for that will and perhaps the right term for that will and perhaps the right term for that will be assertive but he picked his battles be assertive but he picked his battles be assertive but he picked his battles is there some value to holding strong to principles so I don't

holding strong to principles so I don't even know if that's probably the even know if that's probably the even know if that's probably the opposite of empathy are there times when opposite of empathy are there times when opposite of empathy are there times when you can just stick you can just stick you can just stick be extremely stubborn to your principles be extremely stubborn to your principles be extremely stubborn to your principles we do it all the time we just you know we do it all the time we just you know we do it all the time we just you know we're just nice about it okay it helps we're just nice about it okay it helps we're just nice about it okay it helps to be nice you're saying well yes to be nice you're saying well yes to be nice you're saying well yes because I need you to hear me and the because I need you to hear me and the because I need you to hear me and the assertive tone of voice assertive tone of voice assertive tone of voice so when when we do our training so when when we do our training so when when we do our training typically we do an exercise called 60 typically we do an exercise called 60 typically we do an exercise called 60 seconds so she dies seconds so she dies seconds so she dies and I play the bad guy bank robber and I and I play the bad guy bank robber and I and I play the bad guy bank robber and I ask you to be the hostage negotiator ask you to be the hostage negotiator ask you to be the hostage negotiator and your job is to give you the four and your job is to give you the four and your job is to give you the four cons real world constraints cons real world constraints cons real world constraints and then you got to try and negotiate me and then you got to try and negotiate me and then you got to try and negotiate me out of the bank now we're doing this now out of the bank now we're doing this now out of the bank now we're doing this now the first voice that I always use in the first voice that I always use in the first voice that I always use in that exercise is The assertive's Voice that exercise is The assertive's Voice that exercise is The assertive's Voice which is the commanding voice which is the commanding voice which is the commanding voice it's the voice that all police officers it's the voice that all police officers it's the voice that all police officers have taught to use in the street have taught to use in the street have taught to use in the street issued loud and clear commands issued loud and clear commands issued loud and clear commands you know it doesn't it to me I don't you know it doesn't it to me I don't you know it doesn't it to me I don't feel like I'm attacking you feel like I'm attacking you feel like I'm attacking you I just feel like I'm being direct and I just feel like I'm being direct and I just feel like I'm being direct and honest and clear honest and clear honest and clear you on the other hand feel attacked you on the other hand feel attacked you on the other hand feel attacked now we're doing this exercise in Austin now we're doing this exercise in Austin now we're doing this exercise in Austin a couple of years ago the first a couple of years ago the first a couple of years ago the first participant has an Apple watch on participant has an Apple watch on participant has an Apple watch on he tells us afterwards he tells us afterwards he tells us afterwards that's sitting still that's sitting still that's sitting still not even answering not even answering not even answering when he first gets hit in the face with when he first gets hit in the face with when he first gets hit in the face with the assertive's voice his heart rate the assertive's voice his heart rate the assertive's voice his heart rate jumped to 170. which is a typical fight jumped to 170. which is a typical fight

jumped to 170. which is a typical fight or flight reaction I come at you like or flight reaction I come at you like or flight reaction I come at you like I'm fighting you your your fight flight mechanism all your your fight flight mechanism all kick into gear which clouds you're kick into gear which clouds you're kick into gear which clouds you're thinking you're automatically Dumber in thinking you're automatically Dumber in thinking you're automatically Dumber in the moment the moment the moment so if I want to make a great long-term so if I want to make a great long-term so if I want to make a great long-term deal with you deal with you deal with you highly profitable highly profitable highly profitable I'm agnostic to you being profitable is I'm agnostic to you being profitable is I'm agnostic to you being profitable is it you'd be profitable that's fine I'm it you'd be profitable that's fine I'm it you'd be profitable that's fine I'm here to make money for me me making you feel attacked me making you feel attacked will always hurt me will always hurt me will always hurt me so there's never a value in being in you so there's never a value in being in you so there's never a value in being in you making me making me making me afraid afraid afraid there's never a long-term value in it there's never a long-term value in it there's never a long-term value in it that's um that's um that's um it's another thing that tall rise when it's another thing that tall rise when it's another thing that tall rise when we were writing a book we were writing a book we were writing a book brace me on brace me on brace me on because he said there's scientific data because he said there's scientific data because he said there's scientific data out there that's called strategic out there that's called strategic out there that's called strategic umbrage umbrage umbrage well there's data well whether or not well there's data well whether or not well there's data well whether or not it's scientific I would call that into it's scientific I would call that into it's scientific I would call that into question question question but he said there's studies out there but he said there's studies out there but he said there's studies out there that show that strategic umbrage works that show that strategic umbrage works that show that strategic umbrage works and and and another thing that I also enjoy another thing that I also enjoy another thing that I also enjoy uh you probably get tired of me saying uh you probably get tired of me saying uh you probably get tired of me saying wonderful things about Andrew wonderful things about Andrew wonderful things about Andrew you talk there's never there's never you talk there's never there's never you talk there's never there's never enough wonderful things to say about the enough wonderful things to say about the enough wonderful things to say about the great Andrew huberman the host of the great Andrew huberman the host of the great Andrew huberman the host of the human Lab podcast everybody should human Lab podcast everybody should human Lab podcast everybody should subscribe to you should talk to Andrew subscribe to you should talk to Andrew subscribe to you should talk to Andrew you're funnier than he is though I'll

you're funnier than he is though I'll you're funnier than he is though I'll give you that Andrew he's funny give you that Andrew he's funny give you that Andrew he's funny accidentally he makes me laugh all the accidentally he makes me laugh all the accidentally he makes me laugh all the time not when he's trying to be funny time not when he's trying to be funny time not when he's trying to be funny yeah he's a really uh he's one of the yeah he's a really uh he's one of the yeah he's a really uh he's one of the people in this world that's truly legit people in this world that's truly legit people in this world that's truly legit he's a really strong scientist and a he's a really strong scientist and a he's a really strong scientist and a really strong communicator and a good really strong communicator and a good really strong communicator and a good human being and it those those together human being and it those those together human being and it those those together don't come often and it's nice to see don't come often and it's nice to see don't come often and it's nice to see yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah he's a treasure National Treasure yeah he's a treasure National Treasure yeah he's a treasure National Treasure anyway you were saying well he he sort anyway you were saying well he he sort anyway you were saying well he he sort of taught me how to think about that in of taught me how to think about that in of taught me how to think about that in studies and Science and studies and Science and studies and Science and and also from different uh books that and also from different uh books that and also from different uh books that he's turned me on to it's really helped he's turned me on to it's really helped he's turned me on to it's really helped me think about this stuff so the study's me think about this stuff so the study's me think about this stuff so the study's about strategic umbrage about strategic umbrage about strategic umbrage were done the ones that I've seen that were done the ones that I've seen that were done the ones that I've seen that show it's effective show it's effective show it's effective there were simulated negotiations with there were simulated negotiations with there were simulated negotiations with college students now here's the problem college students now here's the problem college students now here's the problem with that with that with that a simulated negotiation with a college a simulated negotiation with a college a simulated negotiation with a college student college students are going to student college students are going to student college students are going to sit down as part of their assignment sit down as part of their assignment sit down as part of their assignment they're going to sit down one time they're going to sit down one time they're going to sit down one time they're going to sit down for 45 minutes they're going to sit down for 45 minutes they're going to sit down for 45 minutes and they're going to think that if they and they're going to think that if they and they're going to think that if they didn't come to a deal at all that they didn't come to a deal at all that they didn't come to a deal at all that they failed and there's no ongoing failed and there's no ongoing failed and there's no ongoing implementation there's just a deal and implementation there's just a deal and implementation there's just a deal and then they walk away a pretense situation then they walk away a pretense situation then they walk away a pretense situation so they got no actual real skin in the so they got no actual real skin in the so they got no actual real skin in the game game game There's No Deal on Earth do you sit down There's No Deal on Earth do you sit down There's No Deal on Earth do you sit down and come to agreement 45 minutes and and come to agreement 45 minutes and and come to agreement 45 minutes and never see each other again because never see each other again because never see each other again because there's the implementation of the deal there's the implementation of the deal there's the implementation of the deal if even if it's only payment so the data is flawed based on the way so the data is flawed based on the way it was collected it's a highly flawed

it was collected it's a highly flawed it was collected it's a highly flawed study study study and all data is flawed as you know as a and all data is flawed as you know as a and all data is flawed as you know as a scientist you just got to be aware what scientist you just got to be aware what scientist you just got to be aware what the flaws are and decide whether or not the flaws are and decide whether or not the flaws are and decide whether or not that destroys the study or or what do that destroys the study or or what do that destroys the study or or what do you think you take a look at the data you think you take a look at the data you think you take a look at the data there's no such thing as perfect data there's no such thing as perfect data there's no such thing as perfect data look at the data see what you think of look at the data see what you think of look at the data see what you think of it the data that says that strategic it the data that says that strategic it the data that says that strategic umbrage works is based on flawed umbrage works is based on flawed umbrage works is based on flawed circumstances can you explain strategic circumstances can you explain strategic circumstances can you explain strategic umbrage get mad scaring the other side umbrage get mad scaring the other side umbrage get mad scaring the other side into a deal into a deal into a deal getting mad at using anger strategically getting mad at using anger strategically getting mad at using anger strategically to bully the other side into an to bully the other side into an to bully the other side into an agreement that's nice to hear in some sense that's nice to hear in some sense it's nice to hear that empathy is the it's nice to hear that empathy is the it's nice to hear that empathy is the right way in almost all situations right way in almost all situations right way in almost all situations it's night best chance of success it's night best chance of success it's night best chance of success not that it works every time just it not that it works every time just it not that it works every time just it works more than anything else does what works more than anything else does what works more than anything else does what is the technique of mirroring there's a is the technique of mirroring there's a is the technique of mirroring there's a lot of cool stuff in your book they just lot of cool stuff in your book they just lot of cool stuff in your book they just kind of Jump Around what's mirroring kind of Jump Around what's mirroring kind of Jump Around what's mirroring mirroring is is like it's it's mirroring is is like it's it's mirroring is is like it's it's it's one of the most fun skills because it's one of the most fun skills because it's one of the most fun skills because it's the simplest to execute you just it's the simplest to execute you just it's the simplest to execute you just repeat one to three repeat one to three repeat one to three ish words of what somebody said usually ish words of what somebody said usually ish words of what somebody said usually the last one with three words um what I found about it is um what I found about it is people that really like mirroring love people that really like mirroring love people that really like mirroring love it because it's so simple and so it because it's so simple and so it because it's so simple and so effortless and invisible effortless and invisible effortless and invisible they typically they typically they typically for lack of a better term tend to be for lack of a better term tend to be for lack of a better term tend to be both high IQ and high EQ like I'm not a both high IQ and high EQ like I'm not a both high IQ and high EQ like I'm not a high IQ guy I'm average dude

high IQ guy I'm average dude high IQ guy I'm average dude I like to think that I can learn I like to think that I can learn I like to think that I can learn in EQ emotional intelligence is a skill in EQ emotional intelligence is a skill in EQ emotional intelligence is a skill you can build and I'm always working on you can build and I'm always working on you can build and I'm always working on building it building it building it but a lot of really regular average but a lot of really regular average but a lot of really regular average people people people were like marrying that stupid I'm not were like marrying that stupid I'm not were like marrying that stupid I'm not doing that doing that doing that and I don't know why they don't like it and I don't know why they don't like it and I don't know why they don't like it but when I find somebody that loves the but when I find somebody that loves the but when I find somebody that loves the mirror mirror mirror I'll always ask them you know how'd you I'll always ask them you know how'd you I'll always ask them you know how'd you I just go on I IQ and typically their IQ I just go on I IQ and typically their IQ I just go on I IQ and typically their IQ is pretty high now I don't know why that is pretty high now I don't know why that is pretty high now I don't know why that combination attracts people to Marin combination attracts people to Marin combination attracts people to Marin because there's nine skills because there's nine skills because there's nine skills um eight from hostage negotiation and we um eight from hostage negotiation and we um eight from hostage negotiation and we then the ninth really was tone of voice then the ninth really was tone of voice then the ninth really was tone of voice and we just Define that as a skill and we just Define that as a skill and we just Define that as a skill and each one is different and focuses on and each one is different and focuses on and each one is different and focuses on different different different components of the conversation and a lot of people don't like the and a lot of people don't like the mirror they found it so awkward like I I mirror they found it so awkward like I I mirror they found it so awkward like I I don't particularly I'm not particularly don't particularly I'm not particularly don't particularly I'm not particularly strong in mirroring I got to do it strong in mirroring I got to do it strong in mirroring I got to do it intentionally I'm good at labeling but intentionally I'm good at labeling but intentionally I'm good at labeling but does it almost always work does it almost always work does it almost always work oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah yeah it's yeah it's yeah it's it feels maybe awkward but there's it's it feels maybe awkward but there's it's it feels maybe awkward but there's it's true there's got to be ways to signal true there's got to be ways to signal true there's got to be ways to signal that you're truly listening that you're truly listening that you're truly listening that's part of it I think you do body that's part of it I think you do body that's part of it I think you do body language you can yeah there's a lot of language you can yeah there's a lot of language you can yeah there's a lot of ways to signal that but mirroring is ways to signal that but mirroring is ways to signal that but mirroring is probably just this trivial little hack probably just this trivial little hack probably just this trivial little hack it kind of is it kind of is it kind of is you know what there's a situation I had you know what there's a situation I had you know what there's a situation I had a conversation with Stephen codkin he's a conversation with Stephen codkin he's a conversation with Stephen codkin he's this historian and uh he would say my

this historian and uh he would say my this historian and uh he would say my name a lot throughout the conversation name a lot throughout the conversation name a lot throughout the conversation he would be like we have to understand he would be like we have to understand he would be like we have to understand Lex Lex Lex is that and for some reason that was is that and for some reason that was is that and for some reason that was making me feel really good I was like he making me feel really good I was like he making me feel really good I was like he cares about me and I wonder if that key cares about me and I wonder if that key cares about me and I wonder if that key if everyone has that key that could be if everyone has that key that could be if everyone has that key that could be the name just using people's name could the name just using people's name could the name just using people's name could be be be powerful using the name is really powerful using the name is really powerful using the name is really context driven context driven context driven it can be extremely powerful with it can be extremely powerful with it can be extremely powerful with someone who's genuine and it comes someone who's genuine and it comes someone who's genuine and it comes across in their demeanor across in their demeanor across in their demeanor and it's used in a way and it's used in a way and it's used in a way that you can tell is meant to encourage that you can tell is meant to encourage that you can tell is meant to encourage you yeah as opposed to explore you sure you yeah as opposed to explore you sure you yeah as opposed to explore you sure and the people that are really into and the people that are really into and the people that are really into exploiting will also use it do the same exploiting will also use it do the same exploiting will also use it do the same thing so you have to be you have to thing so you have to be you have to thing so you have to be you have to avoid using the things that people that avoid using the things that people that avoid using the things that people that are exploiters manipulators use are exploiters manipulators use are exploiters manipulators use because it's it might signal to others because it's it might signal to others because it's it might signal to others that this person is uh trying to trick that this person is uh trying to trick that this person is uh trying to trick me it'll be very conscious over here uh me it'll be very conscious over here uh me it'll be very conscious over here uh what's labeling that you mentioned the what's labeling that you mentioned the what's labeling that you mentioned the thing you like well you know I said thing you like well you know I said thing you like well you know I said earlier that old progression from you earlier that old progression from you earlier that old progression from you sound angry to this is probably going to sound angry to this is probably going to sound angry to this is probably going to make you angry dude I know you're angry make you angry dude I know you're angry make you angry dude I know you're angry labeling is is hanging a label on an labeling is is hanging a label on an labeling is is hanging a label on an emotion or an affect and then just emotion or an affect and then just emotion or an affect and then just calling it up calling it up calling it up is that almost always good it could is that almost always good it could is that almost always good it could could it be a source of frustration when could it be a source of frustration when could it be a source of frustration when a person is being angry and you you kind a person is being angry and you you kind a person is being angry and you you kind of put a label on it of put a label on it of put a label on it uh call out the elephant

that is it possible that that will lead that is it possible that that will lead to escalation of that feeling versus of to escalation of that feeling versus of to escalation of that feeling versus of resolution well resolution well resolution well the con what would make it bad like the con what would make it bad like the con what would make it bad like um um um if I'm pointing out like that blatantly if I'm pointing out like that blatantly if I'm pointing out like that blatantly obvious like if I say look obvious like if I say look obvious like if I say look I need you to get up and go down to the I need you to get up and go down to the I need you to get up and go down to the bank and make the deposit let's say I'm bank and make the deposit let's say I'm bank and make the deposit let's say I'm talking to my talking to my talking to my if somebody works in my company I need if somebody works in my company I need if somebody works in my company I need you to get on the phone with this person you to get on the phone with this person you to get on the phone with this person and make the appointment and make the appointment and make the appointment and I go and I go and I go sounds like you want me to talk to this sounds like you want me to talk to this sounds like you want me to talk to this person yes that would be annoying if it's just yes that would be annoying if it's just so absurdly obvious yeah that there's no so absurdly obvious yeah that there's no so absurdly obvious yeah that there's no Insight in your label at all Insight in your label at all Insight in your label at all and as soon as you're and as soon as you're and as soon as you're demonstrating an awareness or a subtlety demonstrating an awareness or a subtlety demonstrating an awareness or a subtlety or an Insight either to you or to them or an Insight either to you or to them or an Insight either to you or to them now we're making progress now we're making progress now we're making progress so the only time so the only time so the only time a label could ever potentially be a label could ever potentially be a label could ever potentially be counterproductive it's like if you counterproductive it's like if you counterproductive it's like if you weren't actually listening yeah and the weren't actually listening yeah and the weren't actually listening yeah and the label is label is label is indicates that you're not listening indicates that you're not listening indicates that you're not listening you know um you know um you know um I'm teaching the USC I'm teaching the USC I'm teaching the USC and I'm teaching labels and you know one and I'm teaching labels and you know one and I'm teaching labels and you know one of the kids in a class he just wants to of the kids in a class he just wants to of the kids in a class he just wants to take the skills and make his deals and take the skills and make his deals and take the skills and make his deals and just hustle them just hustle them just hustle them yeah and he's just looking for the yeah and he's just looking for the yeah and he's just looking for the hustle hustle hustle so he writes up a paper about you know so he writes up a paper about you know so he writes up a paper about you know he goes there's some some malls I think he goes there's some some malls I think he goes there's some some malls I think over by Palm Springs or someplace some over by Palm Springs or someplace some over by Palm Springs or someplace some outlet malls a lot of people go to buy

outlet malls a lot of people go to buy outlet malls a lot of people go to buy suits suits suits so he goes in there and immediately so he goes in there and immediately so he goes in there and immediately starts the bargaining starts the bargaining starts the bargaining uh that my book teaches with no empathy uh that my book teaches with no empathy uh that my book teaches with no empathy and he's like um throws a price to the and he's like um throws a price to the and he's like um throws a price to the guy and the guy's like no guy and the guy's like no guy and the guy's like no and he throws another price of the gang and he throws another price of the gang and he throws another price of the gang guys like no guys like no guys like no and then then he says to the the guy and then then he says to the the guy and then then he says to the the guy behind the counter sounds like we can behind the counter sounds like we can behind the counter sounds like we can make a deal make a deal make a deal like no it doesn't I just shut down like no it doesn't I just shut down like no it doesn't I just shut down everything you just said if anything it everything you just said if anything it everything you just said if anything it sounds like we're never gonna make a sounds like we're never gonna make a sounds like we're never gonna make a deal yeah but he tried to use this label deal yeah but he tried to use this label deal yeah but he tried to use this label for manipulation for manipulation for manipulation now the guy didn't get mad on the other now the guy didn't get mad on the other now the guy didn't get mad on the other side but it's like clearly his dude is side but it's like clearly his dude is side but it's like clearly his dude is not listening to me and at the core of not listening to me and at the core of not listening to me and at the core of everything you have a bunch of like uh everything you have a bunch of like uh everything you have a bunch of like uh you know almost like hacks you know almost like hacks you know almost like hacks like techniques you can use but at the like techniques you can use but at the like techniques you can use but at the core of it is empathy core of it is empathy core of it is empathy yeah that's the main things and be able yeah that's the main things and be able yeah that's the main things and be able to just sit there and listen to just sit there and listen to just sit there and listen and perceive and perceive and perceive yeah and look for insights yeah and look for insights yeah and look for insights you know what I like silence or like you know what I like silence or like you know what I like silence or like you're both sitting there chilling with you're both sitting there chilling with you're both sitting there chilling with a drink looking up at the stars there's a drink looking up at the stars there's a drink looking up at the stars there's a moment a moment a moment the silence makes you kind of zoom out the silence makes you kind of zoom out the silence makes you kind of zoom out and realize you're in this together as and realize you're in this together as and realize you're in this together as opposed to playing a game opposed to playing a game opposed to playing a game or some kind of like chess game of or some kind of like chess game of or some kind of like chess game of negotiation you're in it to get I don't negotiation you're in it to get I don't negotiation you're in it to get I don't know there's some intimacy to the know there's some intimacy to the know there's some intimacy to the silence and like if I I'll ask a silence and like if I I'll ask a silence and like if I I'll ask a question and just let the other person and just let the other person sit there and silence before they answer

sit there and silence before they answer sit there and silence before they answer or the vice versa they ask me a question or the vice versa they ask me a question or the vice versa they ask me a question I sit there in silence that's a it's a I sit there in silence that's a it's a I sit there in silence that's a it's a big physical big intimate thing big physical big intimate thing big physical big intimate thing yes and yes and yes and the other two types until they've the other two types until they've the other two types until they've experienced that are afraid of it experienced that are afraid of it experienced that are afraid of it and what I'm actually going to do is and what I'm actually going to do is and what I'm actually going to do is for whatever reason I'm really I'm for whatever reason I'm really I'm for whatever reason I'm really I'm really comfortable with silence I think really comfortable with silence I think really comfortable with silence I think because I've I've experienced its because I've I've experienced its because I've I've experienced its Effectiveness and also my son Brandon Effectiveness and also my son Brandon Effectiveness and also my son Brandon like he's the king of dynamic silence like he's the king of dynamic silence like he's the king of dynamic silence like he coaches people he says you go like he coaches people he says you go like he coaches people he says you go silent count thousands to yourself silent count thousands to yourself silent count thousands to yourself don't stop till you run out of numbers don't stop till you run out of numbers don't stop till you run out of numbers it's a good light yeah he's also good it's a good light yeah he's also good it's a good light yeah he's also good good full of good lines he is that is good full of good lines he is that is good full of good lines he is that is and so there's so much to it there's so much to it but the other two types are natural but the other two types are natural but the other two types are natural wiring against the white until they've wiring against the white until they've wiring against the white until they've experienced it and you know you've got experienced it and you know you've got experienced it and you know you've got Instinct intuition is giving you data Instinct intuition is giving you data Instinct intuition is giving you data once you've experienced it yeah but your once you've experienced it yeah but your once you've experienced it yeah but your amygdala is kicking into gear again amygdala is kicking into gear again amygdala is kicking into gear again sorry I realize it's more complicated sorry I realize it's more complicated sorry I realize it's more complicated than that than that than that until you've experienced it so until you've experienced it so until you've experienced it so accommodators hope based accommodators hope based accommodators hope based how do they signal Fury the silent how do they signal Fury the silent how do they signal Fury the silent treatment treatment treatment ah ah ah so when you go silent so when you go silent so when you go silent they're scared the death you're Furious they're scared the death you're Furious they're scared the death you're Furious yeah because that's how they indicate it yeah because that's how they indicate it yeah because that's how they indicate it the assertive the assertive the assertive thinks to use the analyst went silent thinks to use the analyst went silent thinks to use the analyst went silent because you want them to talk some more because you want them to talk some more because you want them to talk some more when a point of fact

when a point of fact when a point of fact you either you either you either you're thinking or and I love your you're thinking or and I love your you're thinking or and I love your description the feeling of intimacy and description the feeling of intimacy and description the feeling of intimacy and silence and experiencing the moment silence and experiencing the moment silence and experiencing the moment because I'm actually going to factor because I'm actually going to factor because I'm actually going to factor that into trying to get that into trying to get that into trying to get the accommodators love shared intimacy the accommodators love shared intimacy the accommodators love shared intimacy they would love would love to experience they would love would love to experience they would love would love to experience a moment and I can see that being very a moment and I can see that being very a moment and I can see that being very compelling then be willing to cross that compelling then be willing to cross that compelling then be willing to cross that Chasm and experience silence and see how Chasm and experience silence and see how Chasm and experience silence and see how see how it works for them see how it works for them see how it works for them yeah it's nerve-wracking which is why I yeah it's nerve-wracking which is why I yeah it's nerve-wracking which is why I sent to me because you start thinking sent to me because you start thinking sent to me because you start thinking what's the other person thinking we're what's the other person thinking we're what's the other person thinking we're actually going to do this so we're going actually going to do this so we're going actually going to do this so we're going to sit here for 10 seconds and come I to sit here for 10 seconds and come I to sit here for 10 seconds and come I mean there's tricks to it I guess like mean there's tricks to it I guess like mean there's tricks to it I guess like Brandon says is to just count it out and Brandon says is to just count it out and Brandon says is to just count it out and realize through data that there's realize through data that there's realize through data that there's intimacy to it at um uh a friend of mine intimacy to it at um uh a friend of mine intimacy to it at um uh a friend of mine he uh lost his voice because he uh lost his voice because he uh lost his voice because singing so you couldn't the doctor says singing so you couldn't the doctor says singing so you couldn't the doctor says he can't talk for a week just to heal he can't talk for a week just to heal he can't talk for a week just to heal the voice yeah the vocal cords but he uh the voice yeah the vocal cords but he uh the voice yeah the vocal cords but he uh he hung out with other people with he hung out with other people with he hung out with other people with friends and didn't talk to them he just friends and didn't talk to them he just friends and didn't talk to them he just hung out and he said he was really hung out and he said he was really hung out and he said he was really intimate they both they both didn't talk intimate they both they both didn't talk intimate they both they both didn't talk to each other to each other to each other they just sat there they just sat there they just sat there and you enjoyed time together I don't and you enjoyed time together I don't and you enjoyed time together I don't know it's it's a it's a wake-up call know it's it's a it's a wake-up call know it's it's a it's a wake-up call it's a thing to try maybe with uh with it's a thing to try maybe with uh with it's a thing to try maybe with uh with people in your life just hang out and people in your life just hang out and people in your life just hang out and don't say anything like as an experiment don't say anything like as an experiment don't say anything like as an experiment don't say anything the entire day don't say anything the entire day don't say anything the entire day but we're trying yeah definitely it's but we're trying yeah definitely it's but we're trying yeah definitely it's interesting I haven't tried it myself

interesting I haven't tried it myself interesting I haven't tried it myself it seems uh uh it's kind of like a it seems uh uh it's kind of like a it seems uh uh it's kind of like a silent retreat but more uh active as silent retreat but more uh active as silent retreat but more uh active as part of like regular everyday life part of like regular everyday life part of like regular everyday life um anyway um anyway um anyway the is there other other interesting the is there other other interesting the is there other other interesting techniques we can talk about here so um techniques we can talk about here so um techniques we can talk about here so um for example creating the illusion of for example creating the illusion of for example creating the illusion of control control control yeah that's principally you know by yeah that's principally you know by yeah that's principally you know by asking what and how questions asking what and how questions asking what and how questions because people love to tell others what because people love to tell others what because people love to tell others what to do or how to do it to do or how to do it to do or how to do it um it does a lot that was that was um it does a lot that was that was um it does a lot that was that was really the way when the book was first really the way when the book was first really the way when the book was first written written written that we really thought about what and that we really thought about what and that we really thought about what and how questions is giving the other side how questions is giving the other side how questions is giving the other side the illusion of control the illusion of control the illusion of control and there's a lot more to it than that and there's a lot more to it than that and there's a lot more to it than that that we've discovered I mean it triggers that we've discovered I mean it triggers that we've discovered I mean it triggers deep thinking it wears people down deep thinking it wears people down deep thinking it wears people down deep thinking is could be exhausting and deep thinking is could be exhausting and deep thinking is could be exhausting and you want so what's the what's the role you want so what's the what's the role you want so what's the what's the role of exhaustion and negotiation is that of exhaustion and negotiation is that of exhaustion and negotiation is that ultimately you gotta be careful with ultimately you gotta be careful with ultimately you gotta be careful with that that that um some people uh exhaust intentionally um some people uh exhaust intentionally um some people uh exhaust intentionally uh one of my negotiation Heroes uh a guy uh one of my negotiation Heroes uh a guy uh one of my negotiation Heroes uh a guy now who's unfortunately suffering from now who's unfortunately suffering from now who's unfortunately suffering from um dementia and Alzheimer's um dementia and Alzheimer's um dementia and Alzheimer's John Dominico Pico is the UN hostage John Dominico Pico is the UN hostage John Dominico Pico is the UN hostage negotiators that got all the Western negotiators that got all the Western negotiators that got all the Western hostages out of Beirut in the 80s hostages out of Beirut in the 80s hostages out of Beirut in the 80s and he wrote a book called Man Without a and he wrote a book called Man Without a and he wrote a book called Man Without a Gun Gun Gun and I'm acquainted with Johnny at this and I'm acquainted with Johnny at this and I'm acquainted with Johnny at this point in time I think I don't think he point in time I think I don't think he point in time I think I don't think he has any memory of who I am at all has any memory of who I am at all has any memory of who I am at all but he writes in his book uh but he writes in his book uh but he writes in his book uh one of the great secrets of negotiation

one of the great secrets of negotiation one of the great secrets of negotiation is exhausting the other side is exhausting the other side is exhausting the other side political negotiations that could be political negotiations that could be political negotiations that could be Johnny was very deferential Johnny was very deferential Johnny was very deferential he was in the middle of in in the 80s he was in the middle of in in the 80s he was in the middle of in in the 80s leading up to about 1986-ish leading up to about 1986-ish leading up to about 1986-ish every negotiation involved in every negotiation involved in every negotiation involved in uh warring parties in the Middle East uh warring parties in the Middle East uh warring parties in the Middle East that you can imagine that you can imagine that you can imagine he was in Cyprus he was in Cyprus he was in Cyprus he was in um he was in um he was in um Afghanistan Afghanistan Afghanistan Iraq and Iran the Iranian government had Iraq and Iran the Iranian government had Iraq and Iran the Iranian government had tremendous tremendous tremendous uh trust in him as a Westerner a uh trust in him as a Westerner a uh trust in him as a Westerner a representative of the U.N got all the representative of the U.N got all the representative of the U.N got all the westerners out of out of Beirut westerners out of out of Beirut westerners out of out of Beirut and he was just ridiculously patient and he was just ridiculously patient and he was just ridiculously patient and then which the other side found and then which the other side found and then which the other side found exhaust would often find exhausting exhaust would often find exhausting exhaust would often find exhausting so exhaustion is a can be a component of so exhaustion is a can be a component of so exhaustion is a can be a component of finding resolution in the negotiation if finding resolution in the negotiation if finding resolution in the negotiation if it's if it tamps down the negative it's if it tamps down the negative it's if it tamps down the negative emotions often exhaustion will Tamp down emotions often exhaustion will Tamp down emotions often exhaustion will Tamp down negative emotions if it puts you if in negative emotions if it puts you if in negative emotions if it puts you if in getting the real trick is really getting getting the real trick is really getting getting the real trick is really getting negative emotions out of out of the way negative emotions out of out of the way negative emotions out of out of the way because you're Dumber in a negative because you're Dumber in a negative because you're Dumber in a negative frame of mind frame of mind frame of mind so the goal is always positive emotion so the goal is always positive emotion so the goal is always positive emotion as you talk about that's what you're as you talk about that's what you're as you talk about that's what you're always chasing together I think I think always chasing together I think I think always chasing together I think I think so yeah and that's what the that's right so yeah and that's what the that's right so yeah and that's what the that's right it's about yes it's about yes it's about yes like whatever you're triggering whatever like whatever you're triggering whatever like whatever you're triggering whatever the chemistry you're triggering in your the chemistry you're triggering in your the chemistry you're triggering in your brain you're like yeah yeah we're doing brain you're like yeah yeah we're doing brain you're like yeah yeah we're doing good here I think yeah long term for good here I think yeah long term for good here I think yeah long term for long-term success absolutely

long-term success absolutely long-term success absolutely how's the word Fair used how's the word Fair used how's the word Fair used the F-bomb as you call it how is it used the F-bomb as you call it how is it used the F-bomb as you call it how is it used and abused negotiation it's usually uh and abused negotiation it's usually uh and abused negotiation it's usually uh uh used it's most frequently used as a uh used it's most frequently used as a uh used it's most frequently used as a weapon weapon weapon it's abused as a point of manipulation it's abused as a point of manipulation it's abused as a point of manipulation it's what people say when they feel it's what people say when they feel it's what people say when they feel backed into a corner and they can't backed into a corner and they can't backed into a corner and they can't um come up with any legitimate reason as um come up with any legitimate reason as um come up with any legitimate reason as to why they're being backed into a to why they're being backed into a to why they're being backed into a corner corner corner like nobody uses the word f the F-bomb like nobody uses the word f the F-bomb like nobody uses the word f the F-bomb nobody uses the word fair when they've nobody uses the word fair when they've nobody uses the word fair when they've got criteria to back them up got criteria to back them up got criteria to back them up so consequently when somebody started so consequently when somebody started so consequently when somebody started starts dropping it you got to realize starts dropping it you got to realize starts dropping it you got to realize the other side's got no legitimate the other side's got no legitimate the other side's got no legitimate outside criteria they're they're feeling outside criteria they're they're feeling outside criteria they're they're feeling very vulnerable they can't explain it very vulnerable they can't explain it very vulnerable they can't explain it but they feel defensive but they feel defensive but they feel defensive and it saying hey look I've just I've and it saying hey look I've just I've and it saying hey look I've just I've given you a fair offer given you a fair offer given you a fair offer is a way for me to knock you off your is a way for me to knock you off your is a way for me to knock you off your game if you're if you're not you're not game if you're if you're not you're not game if you're if you're not you're not aware of it aware of it aware of it so a lot of cutthroat negotiations so a lot of cutthroat negotiations so a lot of cutthroat negotiations negotiators are going to use it on you negotiators are going to use it on you negotiators are going to use it on you to knock you off your game the um to knock you off your game the um to knock you off your game the um uh the NFL strike probably now it's been uh the NFL strike probably now it's been uh the NFL strike probably now it's been a good 10 years ago um um and maybe even longer than that and maybe even longer than that and maybe even longer than that one of this uh sticking points was the one of this uh sticking points was the one of this uh sticking points was the owners were not opening their books to owners were not opening their books to owners were not opening their books to the players players wanted to see the the players players wanted to see the the players players wanted to see the numbers and and in order to not open their books they in order to not open their books they in order to not open their books they just sent a rep sell the press just sent a rep sell the press just sent a rep sell the press conference saying we've given them

conference saying we've given them conference saying we've given them players a fair offer well if it was fair you to open your well if it was fair you to open your books books books yeah if if you gave him a fair offer and yeah if if you gave him a fair offer and yeah if if you gave him a fair offer and it was justified by what was in your it was justified by what was in your it was justified by what was in your books you'd open them to prove your books you'd open them to prove your books you'd open them to prove your point point point so what ends up happening though that so what ends up happening though that so what ends up happening though that well the owners gave the players a fair well the owners gave the players a fair well the owners gave the players a fair offer starts to get picked up in the offer starts to get picked up in the offer starts to get picked up in the media media media and then it starts getting repeated and and then it starts getting repeated and and then it starts getting repeated and now now there are different people on now now there are different people on now now there are different people on the player's side are going like yeah the player's side are going like yeah the player's side are going like yeah maybe maybe they have given us a fair maybe maybe they have given us a fair maybe maybe they have given us a fair offer it caused offer it caused offer it caused people to be insecure about their own people to be insecure about their own people to be insecure about their own positions it's an enormously powerful positions it's an enormously powerful positions it's an enormously powerful word that can be used and abused and it word that can be used and abused and it word that can be used and abused and it almost always comes up in every almost always comes up in every almost always comes up in every negotiation it's shocking the number of negotiation it's shocking the number of negotiation it's shocking the number of times it comes up with people who don't times it comes up with people who don't times it comes up with people who don't really understand really understand really understand how or why it's coming up so usually how or why it's coming up so usually how or why it's coming up so usually it's a signal of it's a signal of it's a signal of um of a not a good place in the um of a not a good place in the um of a not a good place in the negotiation without question I'm negotiation without question I'm negotiation without question I'm completely convinced that if the person completely convinced that if the person completely convinced that if the person is using the word is using the word is using the word is a means of getting what they want is a means of getting what they want is a means of getting what they want then then then either accidentally or on purpose either either accidentally or on purpose either either accidentally or on purpose either in their gut or they know they got a bad in their gut or they know they got a bad in their gut or they know they got a bad position or their gut is afraid that position or their gut is afraid that position or their gut is afraid that they are they are they are do I use the word do I use the word do I use the word what I'll say is I want you to feel like what I'll say is I want you to feel like what I'll say is I want you to feel like I've treated you fairly and if any given I've treated you fairly and if any given I've treated you fairly and if any given point in time you think I'm not treating point in time you think I'm not treating point in time you think I'm not treating you fairly I want you to stop me you fairly I want you to stop me you fairly I want you to stop me and we're going to address it and we're going to address it and we're going to address it big ridiculous question but big ridiculous question but big ridiculous question but how do you uh close the deal how do you

how do you uh close the deal how do you how do you uh close the deal how do you take the uh negotiation to its end is it take the uh negotiation to its end is it take the uh negotiation to its end is it implementation ultimately you got to put implementation ultimately you got to put implementation ultimately you got to put you gotta pivot to agreed upon you gotta pivot to agreed upon you gotta pivot to agreed upon implementation to really to really move implementation to really to really move implementation to really to really move out of the negotiation out of the negotiation out of the negotiation um and I may say how do you how do you um and I may say how do you how do you um and I may say how do you how do you want to proceed want to proceed want to proceed and if you don't know I might say no and if you don't know I might say no and if you don't know I might say no more into question is it a ridiculous more into question is it a ridiculous more into question is it a ridiculous idea if I share with you some ideas of idea if I share with you some ideas of idea if I share with you some ideas of how to proceed how to proceed how to proceed and then you agree on the actual steps and then you agree on the actual steps and then you agree on the actual steps and that's the implementation it's not and that's the implementation it's not and that's the implementation it's not just the philosophical agreement it's just the philosophical agreement it's just the philosophical agreement it's actual steps the big problem in all actual steps the big problem in all actual steps the big problem in all negotiations is a lack of discussion of negotiations is a lack of discussion of negotiations is a lack of discussion of next steps that's deep who is the uh best that's deep who is the uh best negotiator you've ever met yeah and negotiator you've ever met yeah and negotiator you've ever met yeah and actually probably my son Brandon yeah actually probably my son Brandon yeah actually probably my son Brandon yeah yeah he's ridiculously talented yeah he's ridiculously talented yeah he's ridiculously talented I mean he's ridiculously talented I mean he's ridiculously talented I mean he's ridiculously talented and yeah he's you know and what was it and yeah he's you know and what was it and yeah he's you know and what was it Cole's book the culture the Talent Code Cole's book the culture the Talent Code Cole's book the culture the Talent Code says that you know people just noticed says that you know people just noticed says that you know people just noticed it and started getting good at it it and started getting good at it it and started getting good at it there's no such thing as a child prodigy there's no such thing as a child prodigy there's no such thing as a child prodigy just got interested when they were a kid just got interested when they were a kid just got interested when they were a kid I mean I mean I mean Brandon started learning how to Brandon started learning how to Brandon started learning how to negotiate when he was two years old negotiate when he was two years old negotiate when he was two years old and he's been in it and immersed in it and he's been in it and immersed in it and he's been in it and immersed in it you know since he can make complete you know since he can make complete you know since he can make complete senses even before he can make complete senses even before he can make complete senses even before he can make complete senses he's ridiculously talented what's senses he's ridiculously talented what's senses he's ridiculously talented what's uh what's his future what's he want to uh what's his future what's he want to uh what's his future what's he want to do uh he's uh gonna he has been involved do uh he's uh gonna he has been involved do uh he's uh gonna he has been involved he's he run and built my company and now he's he run and built my company and now he's he run and built my company and now he's gonna be an Affiliated licensee run

he's gonna be an Affiliated licensee run he's gonna be an Affiliated licensee run his own operation he's pretty he's his own operation he's pretty he's his own operation he's pretty he's pretty much going to end up doing very pretty much going to end up doing very pretty much going to end up doing very much much much uh uh he's going to open his uh uh he's going to open his uh uh he's going to open his entrepreneurial opportunities to do entrepreneurial opportunities to do entrepreneurial opportunities to do whatever he wants and not have his dad whatever he wants and not have his dad whatever he wants and not have his dad say no say no say no [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] and do a better job than his dad most and do a better job than his dad most and do a better job than his dad most likely yeah yeah okay likely yeah yeah okay likely yeah yeah okay do you see some of the techniques that do you see some of the techniques that do you see some of the techniques that you talk about as manipulative you talk about as manipulative you talk about as manipulative manipulation is whether or not I'm manipulation is whether or not I'm manipulation is whether or not I'm trying to exploit you hurt you trying to exploit you hurt you trying to exploit you hurt you um um um am I trying to manipulate a bank robber am I trying to manipulate a bank robber am I trying to manipulate a bank robber and to let me save his life and to let me save his life and to let me save his life yeah yeah yeah so manipulation is like what am I what so manipulation is like what am I what so manipulation is like what am I what am I trying to do to you yeah am I trying to do to you yeah am I trying to do to you yeah so but so you don't see the negative so but so you don't see the negative so but so you don't see the negative connotation if you're trying to uh bring connotation if you're trying to uh bring connotation if you're trying to uh bring a better future it's not manipulation a better future it's not manipulation a better future it's not manipulation stop if I'm trying to bring a better stop if I'm trying to bring a better stop if I'm trying to bring a better future if I'm being genuine and honest future if I'm being genuine and honest future if I'm being genuine and honest like I compliment you yeah if if my like I compliment you yeah if if my like I compliment you yeah if if my compliment is genuine compliment is genuine compliment is genuine that's not manipulation like better but that's not manipulation like better but that's not manipulation like better but you know if I think you know you're you got a pair of shoes you know you're you got a pair of shoes that that are the dumbest looking things that that are the dumbest looking things that that are the dumbest looking things I've ever seen and I go wow those are I've ever seen and I go wow those are I've ever seen and I go wow those are great shoes no that's manipulation great shoes no that's manipulation great shoes no that's manipulation so there's uh there's guys I call Warren so there's uh there's guys I call Warren so there's uh there's guys I call Warren Buffett who are big on integrity and Buffett who are big on integrity and Buffett who are big on integrity and honesty what's the role of uh honesty what's the role of uh honesty what's the role of uh lying in effective like a bad idea lying

lying in effective like a bad idea lying lying in effective like a bad idea lying is just a bad idea for a variety of is just a bad idea for a variety of is just a bad idea for a variety of reasons reasons reasons first of all um there's really good change the other um there's really good change the other side it's a better life than you are side it's a better life than you are side it's a better life than you are they're going to spot it right off the they're going to spot it right off the they're going to spot it right off the bat yeah bat yeah bat yeah yeah secondly yeah secondly yeah secondly they could be luring you into a trap to they could be luring you into a trap to they could be luring you into a trap to see if you will lie see if you will lie see if you will lie thirdly the chances are they're going to thirdly the chances are they're going to thirdly the chances are they're going to find out they lied to them eventually find out they lied to them eventually find out they lied to them eventually is really high and then the penalties is really high and then the penalties is really high and then the penalties and the taxes and the taxes and the taxes are going to be way higher than what you are going to be way higher than what you are going to be way higher than what you had in the first place so long term you had in the first place so long term you had in the first place so long term you want to have a reputation of somebody want to have a reputation of somebody want to have a reputation of somebody with integrity and the more you lie the with integrity and the more you lie the with integrity and the more you lie the harder it is to maintain that reputation harder it is to maintain that reputation harder it is to maintain that reputation yeah exactly and where it's going to get yeah exactly and where it's going to get yeah exactly and where it's going to get out out out yeah yeah so what's the if we can just yeah yeah so what's the if we can just yeah yeah so what's the if we can just return to that question what's the return to that question what's the return to that question what's the difference between a good conversation difference between a good conversation difference between a good conversation and a good negotiation and a good negotiation and a good negotiation can we uh because can we uh because can we uh because I think just uh reading your work I think just uh reading your work I think just uh reading your work listening to you listening to you listening to you there's a sense I have that the thing there's a sense I have that the thing there's a sense I have that the thing we're doing now and just conversation on we're doing now and just conversation on we're doing now and just conversation on the podcast and so on is different than the podcast and so on is different than the podcast and so on is different than negotiation it feels like the purpose is negotiation it feels like the purpose is negotiation it feels like the purpose is different different different and yet having some of the same and yet having some of the same and yet having some of the same awareness awareness awareness of the value of empathy of the value of empathy of the value of empathy is extremely important but it feels like is extremely important but it feels like is extremely important but it feels like the goals are different the goals are different the goals are different or no or no or no um really close fine line I mean I you um really close fine line I mean I you um really close fine line I mean I you know I I Ruled in here not having any know I I Ruled in here not having any know I I Ruled in here not having any expectations expectations expectations not looking for anything other than have not looking for anything other than have not looking for anything other than have an interesting conversation

an interesting conversation an interesting conversation and um to and um to and um to hear what was behind the questions that hear what was behind the questions that hear what was behind the questions that you were asking me and what interests you were asking me and what interests you were asking me and what interests you you you and then also and then also and then also um your description of silence and a um your description of silence and a um your description of silence and a power of Silence something I'm going to power of Silence something I'm going to power of Silence something I'm going to take away as a learning point and how take away as a learning point and how take away as a learning point and how learn to teach others learn to teach others learn to teach others but I didn't come in here I suppose a but I didn't come in here I suppose a but I didn't come in here I suppose a negotiation is when we're both aware of negotiation is when we're both aware of negotiation is when we're both aware of a problem we're trying to solve a problem we're trying to solve a problem we're trying to solve right there's no problem in the room right there's no problem in the room right there's no problem in the room right just to solve except maybe like right just to solve except maybe like right just to solve except maybe like The Human Condition and inside you know The Human Condition and inside you know The Human Condition and inside you know wisdom Insight learning wisdom Insight learning wisdom Insight learning how do you uh how do you uh how do you uh train to become better at negotiating um in business and uh in life yeah just um in business and uh in life yeah just small Stakes practice for high stakes small Stakes practice for high stakes small Stakes practice for high stakes results I mean decide what what kind of results I mean decide what what kind of results I mean decide what what kind of negotiating resonates with you I mean negotiating resonates with you I mean negotiating resonates with you I mean what's that means small Stakes practice what's that means small Stakes practice what's that means small Stakes practice for high Stakes or small state it's a for high Stakes or small state it's a for high Stakes or small state it's a small little small little small little incremental like picking up girls at a incremental like picking up girls at a incremental like picking up girls at a bar what are we talking about Well it bar what are we talking about Well it bar what are we talking about Well it can't be uh for some people that's can't be uh for some people that's can't be uh for some people that's that's high stakes practice that's high stakes practice that's high stakes practice well you know labeling labeling mirrors well you know labeling labeling mirrors well you know labeling labeling mirrors what are the basic tools of great what are the basic tools of great what are the basic tools of great negotiation labeling mirroring negotiation labeling mirroring negotiation labeling mirroring paraphrasing summarizing paraphrasing summarizing paraphrasing summarizing so you start you start labeling a mirror so you start you start labeling a mirror so you start you start labeling a mirror people that you just haven't regular people that you just haven't regular people that you just haven't regular interactions with just to gain a feel interactions with just to gain a feel interactions with just to gain a feel for whether or not you can read for whether or not you can read for whether or not you can read somebody's affect or how accurate your somebody's affect or how accurate your somebody's affect or how accurate your read is to get better at it

read is to get better at it read is to get better at it and so you know label the and so you know label the and so you know label the the Lyft driver the Lyft driver the Lyft driver or the grocery store clerk or the grocery store clerk or the grocery store clerk or a person behind the airline counter or a person behind the airline counter or a person behind the airline counter at the at the airport so putting a label at the at the airport so putting a label at the at the airport so putting a label on their affect or throwing something at on their affect or throwing something at on their affect or throwing something at them them them that because negotiation is a parable that because negotiation is a parable that because negotiation is a parable perishable skill emotional intelligence perishable skill emotional intelligence perishable skill emotional intelligence is perishable so seeing if you can is perishable so seeing if you can is perishable so seeing if you can indicate that you understand early indicate that you understand early indicate that you understand early um one of my favorite labels to throw um one of my favorite labels to throw um one of my favorite labels to throw out on somebody which you know maybe out on somebody which you know maybe out on somebody which you know maybe re-level I might look at somebody who re-level I might look at somebody who re-level I might look at somebody who looks distressed and I'll go tough day looks distressed and I'll go tough day looks distressed and I'll go tough day so so so several years ago several years ago several years ago um at the counter at LAX oh well I'm um at the counter at LAX oh well I'm um at the counter at LAX oh well I'm waiting the line to get to the counter waiting the line to get to the counter waiting the line to get to the counter and a lady behind the counter is clearly and a lady behind the counter is clearly and a lady behind the counter is clearly making a point to not meet my eyes so making a point to not meet my eyes so making a point to not meet my eyes so that I don't approach that I don't approach that I don't approach and she looks and so like you you know and she looks and so like you you know and she looks and so like you you know you know when you're next in line and you know when you're next in line and you know when you're next in line and they're making sure that you don't meet they're making sure that you don't meet they're making sure that you don't meet eyes eyes eyes and I'm thinking to myself all right so and I'm thinking to myself all right so and I'm thinking to myself all right so they're having a bad day so I woke up they're having a bad day so I woke up they're having a bad day so I woke up and as soon as I approach the counter I and as soon as I approach the counter I and as soon as I approach the counter I go tough day go tough day go tough day and she kind of snaps around and she kind of snaps around and she kind of snaps around and she goes no no no how can I help you and she goes no no no how can I help you and she goes no no no how can I help you and goes out of her way to help me and goes out of her way to help me and goes out of her way to help me now I'm practicing but I also know it now I'm practicing but I also know it now I'm practicing but I also know it made her feel better it relieves some of made her feel better it relieves some of made her feel better it relieves some of the stress so now I'm going through TSA the stress so now I'm going through TSA the stress so now I'm going through TSA I want to look for people having a tough I want to look for people having a tough I want to look for people having a tough day it's a good place to find a good day it's a good place to find a good day it's a good place to find a good place to find and practice place to find and practice place to find and practice and I'm rolling through the line and I

and I'm rolling through the line and I and I'm rolling through the line and I realize I haven't tossed a label out on realize I haven't tossed a label out on realize I haven't tossed a label out on any one of these guys and and there's any one of these guys and and there's any one of these guys and and there's this guy watching the bags come out of this guy watching the bags come out of this guy watching the bags come out of the X-ray machine he's just kind of got the X-ray machine he's just kind of got the X-ray machine he's just kind of got an indifferent look on his face and I go an indifferent look on his face and I go an indifferent look on his face and I go tough day tough day tough day and he kind of goes I can see from his and he kind of goes I can see from his and he kind of goes I can see from his body language like no body language like no body language like no and I go just another day huh and he and I go just another day huh and he and I go just another day huh and he goes yeah just another day you know he goes yeah just another day you know he goes yeah just another day you know he felt seen but I missed and I'm felt seen but I missed and I'm felt seen but I missed and I'm practicing and I'm trying to stay sharp practicing and I'm trying to stay sharp practicing and I'm trying to stay sharp so these are the few words with just a so these are the few words with just a so these are the few words with just a few words you're trying to like quickly few words you're trying to like quickly few words you're trying to like quickly localize the effect and not live on it localize the effect and not live on it localize the effect and not live on it very very very analytically said thank very very very analytically said thank very very very analytically said thank you you you thank you thank you thank you I'm not letting it go I'm not letting it go I'm not letting it go I love it um um it does this thing apply to just it does this thing apply to just it does this thing apply to just conversation in general just how to get conversation in general just how to get conversation in general just how to get better conversation I think a lot of better conversation I think a lot of better conversation I think a lot of people struggle they have insecurities people struggle they have insecurities people struggle they have insecurities they have anxiety about conversation I they have anxiety about conversation I they have anxiety about conversation I as funny as it's to say I have a lot of as funny as it's to say I have a lot of as funny as it's to say I have a lot of anxiety about conversation anxiety about conversation anxiety about conversation is that it basically do the same kind of is that it basically do the same kind of is that it basically do the same kind of practice practice some of the techniques practice practice some of the techniques practice practice some of the techniques yeah genuinely just trying to make sure yeah genuinely just trying to make sure yeah genuinely just trying to make sure you heard somebody out yeah you heard somebody out yeah you heard somebody out yeah what's the best conversation you've ever what's the best conversation you've ever what's the best conversation you've ever been in except this one of course wow what what I mean not the best wow what what I mean not the best conversation but what stands out to you conversation but what stands out to you conversation but what stands out to you as conversation that changed you as a as conversation that changed you as a as conversation that changed you as a person maybe well there's probably been person maybe well there's probably been person maybe well there's probably been a lot of them along the way I mean but a lot of them along the way I mean but a lot of them along the way I mean but one that one that I remember on a one that one that I remember on a one that one that I remember on a regular basis there's actually there's regular basis there's actually there's regular basis there's actually there's two but um when I was in the bureau uh

two but um when I was in the bureau uh two but um when I was in the bureau uh I'm at Quantico I'm their financial I'm at Quantico I'm their financial I'm at Quantico I'm their financial services another guy from New York buddy services another guy from New York buddy services another guy from New York buddy of my name Lionel of my name Lionel of my name Lionel and we're both trying to decide whether and we're both trying to decide whether and we're both trying to decide whether or not we want to be try to get into or not we want to be try to get into or not we want to be try to get into profiling or negotiation profiling or negotiation profiling or negotiation because they're both about human because they're both about human because they're both about human dynamics and both of us really like dynamics and both of us really like dynamics and both of us really like human dynamics human dynamics human dynamics and we're sitting around talking about and we're sitting around talking about and we're sitting around talking about it and we're talking about several it and we're talking about several it and we're talking about several things in any labels me and I know he things in any labels me and I know he things in any labels me and I know he didn't know what he was doing I think I didn't know what he was doing I think I didn't know what he was doing I think I think he was just he had picked it up think he was just he had picked it up think he was just he had picked it up and I'd been talking about my family and I'd been talking about my family and I'd been talking about my family quite a few things quite a few things quite a few things and he said to me and I never said this and he said to me and I never said this and he said to me and I never said this directly that we were close directly that we were close directly that we were close but he said to me it sounds like your but he said to me it sounds like your but he said to me it sounds like your family's really close and I can remember family's really close and I can remember family's really close and I can remember in the Moment Like This Feeling Just in the Moment Like This Feeling Just in the Moment Like This Feeling Just Like I felt great in the moment I mean Like I felt great in the moment I mean Like I felt great in the moment I mean what he said just drew together what he said just drew together what he said just drew together everything that I'd been saying and everything that I'd been saying and everything that I'd been saying and nailed the essence of it and I have a nailed the essence of it and I have a nailed the essence of it and I have a very clear recollection of how good that very clear recollection of how good that very clear recollection of how good that felt in a moment felt in a moment felt in a moment so a couple years later so a couple years later so a couple years later I'm on a suicide hotline now I got this I'm on a suicide hotline now I got this I'm on a suicide hotline now I got this line in the back of my head you know line in the back of my head you know line in the back of my head you know um line technique reaction read whatever um line technique reaction read whatever um line technique reaction read whatever you want to call it you want to call it you want to call it guy calls in on a hotline guy calls in on a hotline guy calls in on a hotline and I could tell the dude is rattled by and I could tell the dude is rattled by and I could tell the dude is rattled by his tone of voice I mean just just amped his tone of voice I mean just just amped his tone of voice I mean just just amped up up up and he goes and he goes and he goes you know I'm just trying to put a lid on you know I'm just trying to put a lid on you know I'm just trying to put a lid on the day I need I need your help putting the day I need I need your help putting the day I need I need your help putting a lid on today I gotta I gotta put a lid a lid on today I gotta I gotta put a lid a lid on today I gotta I gotta put a lid on the day on the day on the day and I go you sound and I go you sound and I go you sound anxious anxious anxious and he goes he goes yeah and he goes he goes yeah and he goes he goes yeah and he and he came down a little bit and

and he and he came down a little bit and and he and he came down a little bit and he was a guy that was he was a guy that was he was a guy that was he was telling me about he was battling he was telling me about he was battling he was telling me about he was battling the disease disease of paranoia the disease disease of paranoia the disease disease of paranoia and he's gonna go on a car trip with his and he's gonna go on a car trip with his and he's gonna go on a car trip with his family the next day and he knew they're family the next day and he knew they're family the next day and he knew they're on the card trip he was gonna you know on the card trip he was gonna you know on the card trip he was gonna you know twist himself in the knots and so the twist himself in the knots and so the twist himself in the knots and so the night before he's twisting himself in night before he's twisting himself in night before he's twisting himself in the knots the knots the knots and he's laying out everything that he's and he's laying out everything that he's and he's laying out everything that he's done to try to beat done to try to beat done to try to beat uh uh uh uh paranoia and how much his family's uh paranoia and how much his family's uh paranoia and how much his family's helping him helping him helping him and and he's going on a car trip with and and he's going on a car trip with and and he's going on a car trip with the family because they're going to take the family because they're going to take the family because they're going to take him to see a doctor him to see a doctor him to see a doctor and so I I hit him with the same thing and so I I hit him with the same thing and so I I hit him with the same thing that my buddy Lionel said I said it that my buddy Lionel said I said it that my buddy Lionel said I said it sounds like your family's close sounds like your family's close sounds like your family's close it goes yeah we are close and you love a it goes yeah we are close and you love a it goes yeah we are close and you love a lot a little bit more lot a little bit more lot a little bit more and then he started taking off all the and then he started taking off all the and then he started taking off all the things that he was doing to try to be things that he was doing to try to be things that he was doing to try to be paranoia and he sounded determined paranoia and he sounded determined paranoia and he sounded determined and so I said and so I said and so I said you sound determined you sound determined you sound determined and he goes yeah and he goes yeah and he goes yeah I am determined I am determined I am determined and I'll be fine tomorrow and I'll be fine tomorrow and I'll be fine tomorrow thanks thanks thanks and that was all I said so those two and that was all I said so those two and that was all I said so those two conversations which are overlapping conversations which are overlapping conversations which are overlapping conversations those two things really conversations those two things really conversations those two things really stick out of my mind stick out of my mind stick out of my mind do those things like through all the do those things like through all the do those things like through all the different negotiations and conversations different negotiations and conversations different negotiations and conversations you've had you've had you've had Duke do they kind of echo throughout Duke do they kind of echo throughout Duke do they kind of echo throughout like you basically because when you empathize with other because when you empathize with other human beings you start to realize we're human beings you start to realize we're human beings you start to realize we're all the same all the same all the same and so you can start to and so you can start to and so you can start to pick little phrases here and there that

pick little phrases here and there that pick little phrases here and there that you've heard from others little you've heard from others little you've heard from others little experiences they were all about like we experiences they were all about like we experiences they were all about like we all want to be um um to be close with other human beings we to be close with other human beings we to be close with other human beings we all want love the world all want love the world all want love the world I think we're all deeply lonely inside I think we're all deeply lonely inside I think we're all deeply lonely inside and looking for connection and looking for connection and looking for connection um or just if we're If we're honest um or just if we're If we're honest um or just if we're If we're honest about it and so all humans have that about it and so all humans have that about it and so all humans have that same all the same different components same all the same different components same all the same different components of um of um of um oh it makes them tick oh it makes them tick oh it makes them tick so you you kind of see yourself so you you kind of see yourself so you you kind of see yourself basically just basically just basically just saying the same things to connect with saying the same things to connect with saying the same things to connect with another human being yeah there aren't another human being yeah there aren't another human being yeah there aren't that many different things that we're that many different things that we're that many different things that we're looking for understanding on or looking for understanding on or looking for understanding on or connection on or satisfaction of there connection on or satisfaction of there connection on or satisfaction of there just aren't that many of them regardless just aren't that many of them regardless just aren't that many of them regardless and so yeah you're looking forward and so yeah you're looking forward and so yeah you're looking forward to manifest itself to manifest itself to manifest itself in some form or another and you're in some form or another and you're in some form or another and you're willing to take a guess on whether or willing to take a guess on whether or willing to take a guess on whether or not that's what you're seeing or hearing not that's what you're seeing or hearing not that's what you're seeing or hearing what uh advice would you give to me to what uh advice would you give to me to what uh advice would you give to me to be better at be better at be better at these conversations these conversations these conversations to me and to other people that do kind to me and to other people that do kind to me and to other people that do kind of um interviews and podcasts and so on of um interviews and podcasts and so on of um interviews and podcasts and so on wow wow wow that I really care about empathy as well that I really care about empathy as well that I really care about empathy as well is there a kind of as a lifelong journey is there a kind of as a lifelong journey is there a kind of as a lifelong journey in this process yeah well I think I in this process yeah well I think I in this process yeah well I think I would advise you to take that approach would advise you to take that approach would advise you to take that approach which is the approach you're taking you which is the approach you're taking you which is the approach you're taking you care about it you're very curious about care about it you're very curious about care about it you're very curious about it it it you see it is a lifelong journey you're you see it is a lifelong journey you're you see it is a lifelong journey you're fascinated by it

fascinated by it fascinated by it you enjoy you enjoy you enjoy learning about it learning about it learning about it and and you definitely do see it as a and and you definitely do see it as a and and you definitely do see it as a lifelong journey as opposed to this is lifelong journey as opposed to this is lifelong journey as opposed to this is what I can if I can acquire this then I what I can if I can acquire this then I what I can if I can acquire this then I can manipulate people no I mean I I fall can manipulate people no I mean I I fall can manipulate people no I mean I I fall in love with people I talk to there's a in love with people I talk to there's a in love with people I talk to there's a kind of deep connection and it lingers kind of deep connection and it lingers kind of deep connection and it lingers with you especially when I'm preparing with you especially when I'm preparing with you especially when I'm preparing uh the more material there's in a person uh the more material there's in a person uh the more material there's in a person the more you get to fall in love with the more you get to fall in love with the more you get to fall in love with them ahead of time they think you get to them ahead of time they think you get to them ahead of time they think you get to really understand not understand but um what I mean by fall in love well um what I mean by fall in love well appreciate huh appreciate but also appreciate huh appreciate but also appreciate huh appreciate but also become deeply curious that's what I mean become deeply curious that's what I mean become deeply curious that's what I mean by following like yeah you appreciate by following like yeah you appreciate by following like yeah you appreciate the things you know but you start to see the things you know but you start to see the things you know but you start to see like Alice in Wonderland you start to like Alice in Wonderland you start to like Alice in Wonderland you start to see that there's all this cool stuff you see that there's all this cool stuff you see that there's all this cool stuff you can learn if you keep interact with them can learn if you keep interact with them can learn if you keep interact with them and then when you show up and you and then when you show up and you and then when you show up and you actually meet you realize actually meet you realize actually meet you realize it's like more and more and more and it's like more and more and more and it's like more and more and more and more it's like in physics the more you more it's like in physics the more you more it's like in physics the more you learn the more you realize you don't learn the more you realize you don't learn the more you realize you don't know and it's like it's really exciting know and it's like it's really exciting know and it's like it's really exciting and then it could also be heartbreaking and then it could also be heartbreaking and then it could also be heartbreaking because you have to say goodbye goodbye because you have to say goodbye goodbye because you have to say goodbye goodbye I hate goodbyes I hate goodbyes seems I hate goodbyes I hate goodbyes seems I hate goodbyes I hate goodbyes seems terminal right yeah it makes it reminds terminal right yeah it makes it reminds terminal right yeah it makes it reminds me that I'm gonna die one day huh like me that I'm gonna die one day huh like me that I'm gonna die one day huh like things end good things end it sucks but things end good things end it sucks but things end good things end it sucks but then it makes the the moment more then it makes the the moment more then it makes the the moment more delicious you know that you do get to delicious you know that you do get to delicious you know that you do get to spend together yeah okay uh I I just wanna I completely okay uh I I just wanna I completely forgot I want to ask you about this the forgot I want to ask you about this the forgot I want to ask you about this the uh 7 38 55 rule it's really interesting

uh 7 38 55 rule it's really interesting uh 7 38 55 rule it's really interesting does this is there an all truth to it uh does this is there an all truth to it uh does this is there an all truth to it uh that seven percent of a message is that seven percent of a message is that seven percent of a message is conveyed from the words used 38 from the conveyed from the words used 38 from the conveyed from the words used 38 from the tone of voice and 55 from body language tone of voice and 55 from body language tone of voice and 55 from body language is that really true to that all right so is that really true to that all right so is that really true to that all right so Albert Moravian I think is the name of Albert Moravian I think is the name of Albert Moravian I think is the name of the UCLA uh Professor that originally the UCLA uh Professor that originally the UCLA uh Professor that originally proposed the 738 55 ratio and discussed proposed the 738 55 ratio and discussed proposed the 738 55 ratio and discussed it in terms of that it wasn't the it in terms of that it wasn't the it in terms of that it wasn't the message but how much the he called it message but how much the he called it message but how much the he called it liking like are you not that you're the liking like are you not that you're the liking like are you not that you're the meeting is coming across but you're meeting is coming across but you're meeting is coming across but you're liking of the message and so liking of the message and so liking of the message and so that's been extrapolated heavily by that's been extrapolated heavily by that's been extrapolated heavily by people like me um to this meaning of the meaning in um to this meaning of the meaning in 738.55 from liking to the meaning 738.55 from liking to the meaning 738.55 from liking to the meaning what I've seen regularly is what I've seen regularly is what I've seen regularly is people that communicate verbally if people that communicate verbally if people that communicate verbally if they're speakers Tony Robbins they're speakers Tony Robbins they're speakers Tony Robbins 738-55 guy he's he throws the ratio out 738-55 guy he's he throws the ratio out 738-55 guy he's he throws the ratio out there there there go that's it exactly that's exactly how go that's it exactly that's exactly how go that's it exactly that's exactly how the message comes across this is how we the message comes across this is how we the message comes across this is how we got to balance it got to balance it got to balance it this is how we got to do it this is how we got to do it this is how we got to do it those that communicate principally in those that communicate principally in those that communicate principally in writing writing writing the meaning of the words are much more the meaning of the words are much more the meaning of the words are much more important to them important to them important to them so they're deeply uncomfortable with so they're deeply uncomfortable with so they're deeply uncomfortable with seven being Awards because the content seven being Awards because the content seven being Awards because the content the words the meaning of the words when the words the meaning of the words when the words the meaning of the words when you're writing it's so important

you're writing it's so important you're writing it's so important that you you hate to poo poo it that way that you you hate to poo poo it that way that you you hate to poo poo it that way so I I first of all a thousand percent so I I first of all a thousand percent so I I first of all a thousand percent believe it's an accurate ratio believe it's an accurate ratio believe it's an accurate ratio but the real critical issue is not what but the real critical issue is not what but the real critical issue is not what the ratio of those three things are the ratio of those three things are the ratio of those three things are it's what's what's the message when it's what's what's the message when it's what's what's the message when they're out of line they're out of line they're out of line like what's the message when the tone of like what's the message when the tone of like what's the message when the tone of voice is out of line with the words like voice is out of line with the words like voice is out of line with the words like it don't matter what your ratio is you it don't matter what your ratio is you it don't matter what your ratio is you got a problem if their tone does not got a problem if their tone does not got a problem if their tone does not match their warts match their warts match their warts yeah and that's that's hard to really yeah and that's that's hard to really yeah and that's that's hard to really put put put um um um put a measure on exactly even in writing put a measure on exactly even in writing put a measure on exactly even in writing there's a tone there's a tone there's a tone I mean it's not just even in writing I mean it's not just even in writing I mean it's not just even in writing it's not just the words there's the it's not just the words there's the it's not just the words there's the words but there's like a style words but there's like a style words but there's like a style underneath the whole thing right and underneath the whole thing right and underneath the whole thing right and there's something like a body language there's something like a body language there's something like a body language the presentation of the whole thing I the presentation of the whole thing I the presentation of the whole thing I mean they're yeah yeah I'm a big fan of mean they're yeah yeah I'm a big fan of mean they're yeah yeah I'm a big fan of uh constraint mediums of communication uh constraint mediums of communication uh constraint mediums of communication which writing is or voice like Clubhouse which writing is or voice like Clubhouse which writing is or voice like Clubhouse there's a personality to a human being there's a personality to a human being there's a personality to a human being when you just hear their voice when you just hear their voice when you just hear their voice there's it's not just it's you could say there's it's not just it's you could say there's it's not just it's you could say it's the tone of voice but there's like it's the tone of voice but there's like it's the tone of voice but there's like you can like what is it the imagination you can like what is it the imagination you can like what is it the imagination fills in the rest fills in the rest fills in the rest like what I'm looking for somebody I'm like what I'm looking for somebody I'm like what I'm looking for somebody I'm like I'm imagining some amorphous being like I'm imagining some amorphous being like I'm imagining some amorphous being right doing things when they get angry right doing things when they get angry right doing things when they get angry I'm imagining anger I don't know what I'm imagining anger I don't know what I'm imagining anger I don't know what exactly I'm visualizing if you if well exactly I'm visualizing if you if well exactly I'm visualizing if you if well and so you you may think of a funny and so you you may think of a funny and so you you may think of a funny story because we were talking about your story because we were talking about your story because we were talking about your buddy Elon before yeah and I told you buddy Elon before yeah and I told you buddy Elon before yeah and I told you you know about you know that I'd you know about you know that I'd you know about you know that I'd interacted with some of the senior interacted with some of the senior interacted with some of the senior executives executives executives so I know that they that they that that so I know that they that they that that so I know that they that they that that they love working with them and I think they love working with them and I think they love working with them and I think he's an interesting guy and they realize he's an interesting guy and they realize he's an interesting guy and they realize that he can be funny and he jokes around

that he can be funny and he jokes around that he can be funny and he jokes around yeah so that they tell me during this yeah so that they tell me during this yeah so that they tell me during this conference call just words conference call just words conference call just words and uh a guy on the other end the line and uh a guy on the other end the line and uh a guy on the other end the line says something says something says something um you know that wasn't wasn't was wrong um you know that wasn't wasn't was wrong um you know that wasn't wasn't was wrong but wasn't bad yeah and so they said but wasn't bad yeah and so they said but wasn't bad yeah and so they said they're on a they're on a phone and Elon they're on a they're on a phone and Elon they're on a they're on a phone and Elon goes you're fired and then everybody in goes you're fired and then everybody in goes you're fired and then everybody in the room with them can see that he's the room with them can see that he's the room with them can see that he's joking yeah joking yeah joking yeah but the person on the other side and but the person on the other side and but the person on the other side and they're all going wait wait wait wait they're all going wait wait wait wait they're all going wait wait wait wait they can't see your look on your face they can't see your look on your face they can't see your look on your face right now you gotta stop you gotta stop right now you gotta stop you gotta stop right now you gotta stop you gotta stop because the guy on the other side is because the guy on the other side is because the guy on the other side is dying right now he doesn't realize dying right now he doesn't realize dying right now he doesn't realize you're joking yeah so there was you know you're joking yeah so there was you know you're joking yeah so there was you know there were the words and the tone of there were the words and the tone of there were the words and the tone of voice and but it lacked the visual to go voice and but it lacked the visual to go voice and but it lacked the visual to go with it with it with it uh nevertheless it was probably funny uh nevertheless it was probably funny uh nevertheless it was probably funny um uh maybe not to him uh just just as uh uh maybe not to him uh just just as uh interesting to ask I don't know if interesting to ask I don't know if interesting to ask I don't know if you're following along the developments you're following along the developments you're following along the developments of large language models there's been of large language models there's been of large language models there's been something called Chad GPT there's just something called Chad GPT there's just something called Chad GPT there's just more more more more and more sophisticated and more and more sophisticated and more and more sophisticated and effective and impressive chat Bots effective and impressive chat Bots effective and impressive chat Bots essentially they can they can talk essentially they can they can talk essentially they can they can talk and they are becoming more and more and they are becoming more and more and they are becoming more and more human-like right do you think it's human-like right do you think it's human-like right do you think it's possible uh in the future that AI would possible uh in the future that AI would possible uh in the future that AI would be able to be better in negotiators be able to be better in negotiators be able to be better in negotiators than humans do you think about that kind than humans do you think about that kind than humans do you think about that kind of stuff uh well so definition of better of stuff uh well so definition of better of stuff uh well so definition of better or or versus less flawed like they're or or versus less flawed like they're or or versus less flawed like they're they're you know the chat Bots have been they're you know the chat Bots have been they're you know the chat Bots have been out there for a long time and um

out there for a long time and um out there for a long time and um probably about probably about probably about five years ago now five years ago now five years ago now uh company approached us because they uh company approached us because they uh company approached us because they were doing a negotiation chat bot were doing a negotiation chat bot were doing a negotiation chat bot and they said two things first uh first and they said two things first uh first and they said two things first uh first of all I said you know why are you of all I said you know why are you of all I said you know why are you talking to us it's a well-on point of talking to us it's a well-on point of talking to us it's a well-on point of fact fact fact we already spoke to the people that are we already spoke to the people that are we already spoke to the people that are teaching quote the Harvard methodology teaching quote the Harvard methodology teaching quote the Harvard methodology and you know the rational approach to and you know the rational approach to and you know the rational approach to negotiation just doesn't work rational negotiation just doesn't work rational negotiation just doesn't work rational approaches does not work it's our chat approaches does not work it's our chat approaches does not work it's our chat Bots are not getting anywhere Bots are not getting anywhere Bots are not getting anywhere but we're showing but we're showing but we're showing in in around about 80 percent of the in in around about 80 percent of the in in around about 80 percent of the interactions interactions interactions a higher success outcome with these chat a higher success outcome with these chat a higher success outcome with these chat box box box and they showed me what they were doing and they showed me what they were doing and they showed me what they were doing and it was still a lot deeply flawed and it was still a lot deeply flawed and it was still a lot deeply flawed emotional intelligence wise emotional intelligence wise emotional intelligence wise but the reason why that they were having but the reason why that they were having but the reason why that they were having higher success rates is the chat Bots higher success rates is the chat Bots higher success rates is the chat Bots were never in a bad mood and you could were never in a bad mood and you could were never in a bad mood and you could reach out for Chad Bach in the middle of reach out for Chad Bach in the middle of reach out for Chad Bach in the middle of the night the night the night so if you were talking to somebody that so if you were talking to somebody that so if you were talking to somebody that was never upset and was always available was never upset and was always available was never upset and was always available then you're going to have a higher then you're going to have a higher then you're going to have a higher success rate negotiations go bad when success rate negotiations go bad when success rate negotiations go bad when people are in a negative frame of mind people are in a negative frame of mind people are in a negative frame of mind so the pot the natural ability so the pot the natural ability so the pot the natural ability um of a chatbot to be positive it's just um of a chatbot to be positive it's just um of a chatbot to be positive it's just going to give you a going to give you a going to give you a higher success rate yeah and and they're higher success rate yeah and and they're higher success rate yeah and and they're not they're not going to get mad and not they're not going to get mad and not they're not going to get mad and argue with you you know you say argue with you you know you say argue with you you know you say you say to a chadbot you know your price you say to a chadbot you know your price you say to a chadbot you know your price is too high is too high is too high chadbot is designed to come back with a chadbot is designed to come back with a chadbot is designed to come back with a smiley face yeah you say to a person smiley face yeah you say to a person smiley face yeah you say to a person your price is too high if you go how your price is too high if you go how your price is too high if you go how dare you I'm trying to make a living you

dare you I'm trying to make a living you dare you I'm trying to make a living you know they're gonna go off the deepest uh know they're gonna go off the deepest uh know they're gonna go off the deepest uh unfortunately or fortunately I think the unfortunately or fortunately I think the unfortunately or fortunately I think the way chat Bots are going now they will way chat Bots are going now they will way chat Bots are going now they will come back negative because they're come back negative because they're come back negative because they're becoming more human more and more becoming more human more and more becoming more human more and more human-like that's the whole point to be human-like that's the whole point to be human-like that's the whole point to be able to pass the touring test you have able to pass the touring test you have able to pass the touring test you have to be negative you have to be an to be negative you have to be an to be negative you have to be an you have to have boundaries you have to you have to have boundaries you have to you have to have boundaries you have to be insecure you have to have some be insecure you have to have some be insecure you have to have some uncertainty what is them just doing uncertainty what is them just doing uncertainty what is them just doing being having boundaries and being being having boundaries and being being having boundaries and being negative like I can like you you threw a negative like I can like you you threw a negative like I can like you you threw a proposal to me proposal to me proposal to me but you know before I say no but you know before I say no but you know before I say no I'm gonna say look I'm sorry that just I'm gonna say look I'm sorry that just I'm gonna say look I'm sorry that just doesn't work for me doesn't work for me doesn't work for me I'm gonna set up a real clear boundary I'm gonna set up a real clear boundary I'm gonna set up a real clear boundary without being negative share so then a without being negative share so then a without being negative share so then a lot of people lot of people lot of people really struggle with setting boundaries really struggle with setting boundaries really struggle with setting boundaries without being negative without name without being negative without name without being negative without name calling without indignation without calling without indignation without calling without indignation without getting upset but see there's a when you getting upset but see there's a when you getting upset but see there's a when you are are are when you show that you're not getting when you show that you're not getting when you show that you're not getting upset upset upset I'm not just seeing that I'm seeing a FL I'm not just seeing that I'm seeing a FL I'm not just seeing that I'm seeing a FL I'm seeing a flawed human I'm seeing a flawed human I'm seeing a flawed human that has underneath it a temper that has underneath it a temper that has underneath it a temper underneath it the ability to get upset underneath it the ability to get upset underneath it the ability to get upset right but chooses not to get upset and a right but chooses not to get upset and a right but chooses not to get upset and a chatbot has to demonstrate that so it's chatbot has to demonstrate that so it's chatbot has to demonstrate that so it's not just going to be cold and and uh you not just going to be cold and and uh you not just going to be cold and and uh you know be this kind of corporate blank know be this kind of corporate blank know be this kind of corporate blank empty sort of uh like vapid creature empty sort of uh like vapid creature empty sort of uh like vapid creature that just says oh thank you thank you that just says oh thank you thank you that just says oh thank you thank you for saying that no it's basically uh you

for saying that no it's basically uh you for saying that no it's basically uh you have to the chatbot has to be able to be have to the chatbot has to be able to be have to the chatbot has to be able to be mean and choose not to be mean and choose not to be mean and choose not to be interesting I don't know maybe I'd be interesting I don't know maybe I'd be interesting I don't know maybe I'd be I'd be willing to to see that I'd be willing to to see that I'd be willing to to see that play out and see uh see how it plays out play out and see uh see how it plays out play out and see uh see how it plays out but I guess what I'm saying is to be a but I guess what I'm saying is to be a but I guess what I'm saying is to be a good negotiator you have to be have the good negotiator you have to be have the good negotiator you have to be have the capacity to be a bad person and choose capacity to be a bad person and choose capacity to be a bad person and choose not really I think so see I I think you not really I think so see I I think you not really I think so see I I think you just gotta have the capacity to set a just gotta have the capacity to set a just gotta have the capacity to set a boundary and stick to it boundary and stick to it boundary and stick to it interesting I because I think it's hard interesting I because I think it's hard interesting I because I think it's hard for me to trust a person who's not aware for me to trust a person who's not aware for me to trust a person who's not aware of their own demons of their own demons of their own demons because if you say you don't have any because if you say you don't have any because if you say you don't have any demons if you don't have any flaws I demons if you don't have any flaws I demons if you don't have any flaws I can't trust you can't trust you can't trust you yeah well it's first of all it's a lie yeah well it's first of all it's a lie yeah well it's first of all it's a lie right so somebody's lying right because right so somebody's lying right because right so somebody's lying right because it gets back to life yes so you have to it gets back to life yes so you have to it gets back to life yes so you have to have a self-awareness about that uh but have a self-awareness about that uh but have a self-awareness about that uh but he'd be able to control it demonstrate he'd be able to control it demonstrate he'd be able to control it demonstrate be able to control it I mean this is be able to control it I mean this is be able to control it I mean this is humans I just think humans humans I just think humans humans I just think humans intelligent effective humans are able to intelligent effective humans are able to intelligent effective humans are able to do this well and chat Bots are not yet do this well and chat Bots are not yet do this well and chat Bots are not yet and they're moving that direction so and they're moving that direction so and they're moving that direction so it makes me think about what is actually it makes me think about what is actually it makes me think about what is actually required for Effective negotiation required for Effective negotiation required for Effective negotiation that's what AI systems do is they make that's what AI systems do is they make that's what AI systems do is they make you ask yourself you ask yourself you ask yourself what is it that makes humans special any what is it that makes humans special any what is it that makes humans special any discipline what is it that makes human discipline what is it that makes human discipline what is it that makes human special chess and go games which AI special chess and go games which AI special chess and go games which AI systems are able to beat humans at now systems are able to beat humans at now systems are able to beat humans at now what is it that makes them effective at what is it that makes them effective at what is it that makes them effective at negotiation what does it make them

negotiation what does it make them negotiation what does it make them effective at effective at effective at um um um something that's extremely difficult something that's extremely difficult something that's extremely difficult which is navigating physical spaces so which is navigating physical spaces so which is navigating physical spaces so doing things that we take for granted doing things that we take for granted doing things that we take for granted like making yourself a cup of coffee is like making yourself a cup of coffee is like making yourself a cup of coffee is exceptionally difficult problem exceptionally difficult problem exceptionally difficult problem for robots yeah because of all the for robots yeah because of all the for robots yeah because of all the complexities involved in navigating complexities involved in navigating complexities involved in navigating physical reality we we have so much physical reality we we have so much physical reality we we have so much Common Sense reasoning built in Common Sense reasoning built in Common Sense reasoning built in just about how gravity Works about how just about how gravity Works about how just about how gravity Works about how um objects move um objects move um objects move the the the what kind of objects there are in the what kind of objects there are in the what kind of objects there are in the world it's a it's it's really difficult world it's a it's it's really difficult world it's a it's it's really difficult to describe because it all seems so damn to describe because it all seems so damn to describe because it all seems so damn trivial but it's not trivial right trivial but it's not trivial right trivial but it's not trivial right because a lot of that we just learned as because a lot of that we just learned as because a lot of that we just learned as babies we keep running into things and babies we keep running into things and babies we keep running into things and we'll learn about that so AI systems we'll learn about that so AI systems we'll learn about that so AI systems help us understand what is it that makes help us understand what is it that makes help us understand what is it that makes humans really what is the wisdom we have humans really what is the wisdom we have humans really what is the wisdom we have in our heads and negotiation to me is in our heads and negotiation to me is in our heads and negotiation to me is super interesting because negotiation is super interesting because negotiation is super interesting because negotiation is not it's about business it's about uh not it's about business it's about uh not it's about business it's about uh geopolitics it's about running geopolitics it's about running geopolitics it's about running government government government is basically negotiating how do we the is basically negotiating how do we the is basically negotiating how do we the different policies different uh bills different policies different uh bills different policies different uh bills and programs and so on how do we and programs and so on how do we and programs and so on how do we allocate money allocate money allocate money how do we reallocate resources all that how do we reallocate resources all that how do we reallocate resources all that kind of stuff that seems like AI in the kind of stuff that seems like AI in the kind of stuff that seems like AI in the future could be better at that future could be better at that future could be better at that but maybe not but maybe not but maybe not maybe you have to be a messy weird maybe you have to be a messy weird maybe you have to be a messy weird insecure uncertain human and debate each

insecure uncertain human and debate each insecure uncertain human and debate each other and yell at each other on Twitter other and yell at each other on Twitter other and yell at each other on Twitter maybe you have to have the red and the maybe you have to have the red and the maybe you have to have the red and the blue teams blue teams blue teams that yell at each other that yell at each other that yell at each other um in in the process of figuring out um in in the process of figuring out um in in the process of figuring out what is true maybe AI systems will not what is true maybe AI systems will not what is true maybe AI systems will not be able to do that I figure out the full be able to do that I figure out the full be able to do that I figure out the full mess of human mess of human mess of human of human civilization yeah interesting of human civilization yeah interesting of human civilization yeah interesting well I mean the two thoughts that I had well I mean the two thoughts that I had well I mean the two thoughts that I had along the way was along the way was along the way was I mean anytime you're talking about I mean anytime you're talking about I mean anytime you're talking about systems or scaling systems or scaling systems or scaling you know yeah you're talking my belief you know yeah you're talking my belief you know yeah you're talking my belief is is is chatbot systems chatbot systems chatbot systems things that don't require decision things that don't require decision things that don't require decision making just following the instructions making just following the instructions making just following the instructions at least 80 percent of what's going on at least 80 percent of what's going on at least 80 percent of what's going on now the remaining percentage whatever it now the remaining percentage whatever it now the remaining percentage whatever it is does it does it require the human is does it does it require the human is does it does it require the human interaction and what's required like I'm interaction and what's required like I'm interaction and what's required like I'm not I'm not I'm not like I am not not I'm not I'm not like I am not not I'm not I'm not like I am not pro-conflict and I also know that pro-conflict and I also know that pro-conflict and I also know that there's a case to be made in the there's a case to be made in the there's a case to be made in the creative world creative world creative world that some of the best thinking came out that some of the best thinking came out that some of the best thinking came out of conflict of conflict of conflict um um um reading interviews about you too reading interviews about you too reading interviews about you too you know their admiration for some of you know their admiration for some of you know their admiration for some of the Beatles best music came when they the Beatles best music came when they the Beatles best music came when they were fighting with each other were fighting with each other were fighting with each other and the song one octoon which is I and the song one octoon which is I and the song one octoon which is I believe from the album octum baby believe from the album octum baby believe from the album octum baby those guys were fighting I mean they those guys were fighting I mean they those guys were fighting I mean they were on the verge of breaking up were on the verge of breaking up were on the verge of breaking up and their appreciation that conflict and their appreciation that conflict and their appreciation that conflict could create something beautiful could create something beautiful could create something beautiful and then when I was in a crisis and then when I was in a crisis and then when I was in a crisis negotiation unit you know my last seven

negotiation unit you know my last seven negotiation unit you know my last seven years in the FBI years in the FBI years in the FBI it was a guy that um named Vince it was a guy that um named Vince it was a guy that um named Vince brilliant dude brilliant brilliant brilliant dude brilliant brilliant brilliant dude brilliant brilliant negotiator negotiator negotiator and he and I used to argue all the time and he and I used to argue all the time and he and I used to argue all the time and then when we had a change in the guy and then when we had a change in the guy and then when we had a change in the guy who was in charge who was in charge who was in charge the guy was in charge took me off to the the guy was in charge took me off to the the guy was in charge took me off to the side and he's like you know I can't take side and he's like you know I can't take side and he's like you know I can't take you and Vince fighting all the time you and Vince fighting all the time you and Vince fighting all the time and I said well I got news for you I and I said well I got news for you I and I said well I got news for you I think we come up with much better stuff think we come up with much better stuff think we come up with much better stuff as a result of our battles as a result of our battles as a result of our battles and he said you know Vince said the same and he said you know Vince said the same and he said you know Vince said the same thing to me thing to me thing to me and I'm like so well if we don't have a and I'm like so well if we don't have a and I'm like so well if we don't have a problem fighting why why do you have a problem fighting why why do you have a problem fighting why why do you have a problem yeah problem yeah problem yeah but you know some there is there is but you know some there is there is but you know some there is there is something there that sometimes the most something there that sometimes the most something there that sometimes the most difficult insights difficult insights difficult insights you rack your brains as to why someone you rack your brains as to why someone you rack your brains as to why someone is so is so is so dug in on something that so you think is dug in on something that so you think is dug in on something that so you think is so wrong so wrong so wrong yeah maybe there's something to it I yeah maybe there's something to it I yeah maybe there's something to it I think there's something to it there's think there's something to it there's think there's something to it there's something about conflict even drama that something about conflict even drama that something about conflict even drama that might be a feature not a bug of our might be a feature not a bug of our might be a feature not a bug of our society very interesting society very interesting society very interesting uh do you think there will always be war uh do you think there will always be war uh do you think there will always be war in the world yeah in the world yeah in the world yeah [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] uh so there will always be a need for uh so there will always be a need for uh so there will always be a need for negotiators and negotiating well as it negotiators and negotiating well as it negotiators and negotiating well as it turns out um why do you think there will always be um why do you think there will always be a war is it what's your intuition about a war is it what's your intuition about a war is it what's your intuition about human nature there yeah just because human nature there yeah just because human nature there yeah just because we're basically 75 negative and then we're basically 75 negative and then we're basically 75 negative and then for lack of a better term I call it two for lack of a better term I call it two for lack of a better term I call it two lines of code like somewhere when you

lines of code like somewhere when you lines of code like somewhere when you everybody when we were little somebody everybody when we were little somebody everybody when we were little somebody planted in two lines into our head we planted in two lines into our head we planted in two lines into our head we don't know when it got in there don't know when it got in there don't know when it got in there but somebody said something to us it's but somebody said something to us it's but somebody said something to us it's stuck stuck stuck and there are a lot of people that had and there are a lot of people that had and there are a lot of people that had some really negative garbage dumped in some really negative garbage dumped in some really negative garbage dumped in their brain their brain their brain when they were little when they were little when they were little and and and just based on the numbers yeah what kind just based on the numbers yeah what kind just based on the numbers yeah what kind of opportunity they were given of opportunity they were given of opportunity they were given afterwards did they ever have an afterwards did they ever have an afterwards did they ever have an epiphany moment epiphany moment epiphany moment when I genuinely believe they can get when I genuinely believe they can get when I genuinely believe they can get get themselves out of it like what is it get themselves out of it like what is it get themselves out of it like what is it one of Joseph spends his book is one of Joseph spends his book is one of Joseph spends his book is breaking the habit of being yourself breaking the habit of being yourself breaking the habit of being yourself yeah you know like how do you get at yeah you know like how do you get at yeah you know like how do you get at that two lines of code that that that two lines of code that that that two lines of code that that either mean or well intentioned but either mean or well intentioned but either mean or well intentioned but stupidly speaking adults said to you at stupidly speaking adults said to you at stupidly speaking adults said to you at the wrong moment and plan it in your the wrong moment and plan it in your the wrong moment and plan it in your brain like how the chances of everybody brain like how the chances of everybody brain like how the chances of everybody on Earth getting out of getting that out on Earth getting out of getting that out on Earth getting out of getting that out even the majority of people on Earth even the majority of people on Earth even the majority of people on Earth getting that out of their heads is getting that out of their heads is getting that out of their heads is really small really small really small what advice would you give to a young what advice would you give to a young what advice would you give to a young person today about how to have a career person today about how to have a career person today about how to have a career they could be proud of or a life maybe they could be proud of or a life maybe they could be proud of or a life maybe somebody in high school somebody in high school somebody in high school College trying to figure out their way College trying to figure out their way College trying to figure out their way in this world in this world in this world it's probably a take on a cliche of uh it's probably a take on a cliche of uh it's probably a take on a cliche of uh do what you love but um do what you love but um do what you love but um if you if you figure out your ideals if you if you figure out your ideals if you if you figure out your ideals and pursue your ideals and pursue your ideals and pursue your ideals and stick to them and stick to them and stick to them when it costs you

when it costs you when it costs you like a guy admire very much Michael like a guy admire very much Michael like a guy admire very much Michael mogill uh runs his or operation crisp mogill uh runs his or operation crisp mogill uh runs his or operation crisp video in Atlanta video in Atlanta video in Atlanta in one of his talks he would say core in one of his talks he would say core in one of his talks he would say core values are what you uh stick to that values are what you uh stick to that values are what you uh stick to that cost you money cost you money cost you money it's not a value that really matters to it's not a value that really matters to it's not a value that really matters to you unless it's costing you you unless it's costing you you unless it's costing you and stick to your values and stick to your values and stick to your values now when I was in the FBI I worked now when I was in the FBI I worked now when I was in the FBI I worked really hard at you know the number one really hard at you know the number one really hard at you know the number one core mission of the FBI is protect and core mission of the FBI is protect and core mission of the FBI is protect and defend the American people so I could pursue that value so I could pursue that value at all times which I did or I could at all times which I did or I could at all times which I did or I could follow the rules follow the rules follow the rules you don't have time to do both when did you know you you found what you when did you know you you found what you love love love like like like when did you fall in love with whatever when did you fall in love with whatever when did you fall in love with whatever this process is that is negotiating this process is that is negotiating this process is that is negotiating it was in in a conversation on the it was in in a conversation on the it was in in a conversation on the suicide hotline that I was telling you suicide hotline that I was telling you suicide hotline that I was telling you about earlier with the guy who was about earlier with the guy who was about earlier with the guy who was paranoid hmm paranoid hmm paranoid hmm when I thought I can have that when I thought I can have that when I thought I can have that significant of an impact on another significant of an impact on another significant of an impact on another human being in this short of a period of human being in this short of a period of human being in this short of a period of time time time that's really cool that's really cool that's really cool how hard is it to talk somebody off the how hard is it to talk somebody off the how hard is it to talk somebody off the ledge ledge ledge so this question is a big question now so this question is a big question now so this question is a big question now why why the hell live at all how do you have that kind of deeply

how do you have that kind of deeply philosophical deeply psychological and philosophical deeply psychological and philosophical deeply psychological and also practical conversation with also practical conversation with also practical conversation with somebody and convince them that they somebody and convince them that they somebody and convince them that they should stick around well it um should stick around well it um should stick around well it um it's more clear and clearing the clutter it's more clear and clearing the clutter it's more clear and clearing the clutter in their head in their head in their head and and let them make up their own mind and and let them make up their own mind and and let them make up their own mind that that was what volunteer on suicide that that was what volunteer on suicide that that was what volunteer on suicide Island was really about just let me help Island was really about just let me help Island was really about just let me help let me let me see how quickly I can let me let me see how quickly I can let me let me see how quickly I can clear out the clutter in your head clear out the clutter in your head clear out the clutter in your head if you're willing to have it cleared out if you're willing to have it cleared out if you're willing to have it cleared out like did you call here because you're like did you call here because you're like did you call here because you're actually looking for help actually looking for help actually looking for help or did you call here to fulfill some or did you call here to fulfill some or did you call here to fulfill some other other other agenda agenda agenda so are you you know are you willing to so are you you know are you willing to so are you you know are you willing to have are you willing to clear the have are you willing to clear the have are you willing to clear the clutter in your head not everybody is clutter in your head not everybody is clutter in your head not everybody is so once you clear out the Clutter so once you clear out the Clutter so once you clear out the Clutter as a the at least somewhat hopeful as a the at least somewhat hopeful as a the at least somewhat hopeful chance that you'll uh you'll continue chance that you'll uh you'll continue chance that you'll uh you'll continue for another day yeah for another day yeah for another day yeah and and like if you step back like very and and like if you step back like very and and like if you step back like very few people that commit suicide physically or up against it that hard physically or up against it that hard like most of them by and large are like most of them by and large are like most of them by and large are pretty intact physically human beings pretty intact physically human beings pretty intact physically human beings they're struggling with emotional stuff they're struggling with emotional stuff they're struggling with emotional stuff but but but that it's an it's an emotional issue that it's an it's an emotional issue that it's an it's an emotional issue it's not a physical issue it's not a physical issue it's not a physical issue so if you would be a complete mercenary so if you would be a complete mercenary so if you would be a complete mercenary like a guy I'm a very big fan of a guy like a guy I'm a very big fan of a guy like a guy I'm a very big fan of a guy named Mark Pollock named Mark Pollock named Mark Pollock uh born great athlete lost his eyesight uh born great athlete lost his eyesight uh born great athlete lost his eyesight and then became paralyzed

and then became paralyzed and then became paralyzed like he's an emotional like he's an emotional like he's an emotional um um um uh leader he's about helping people uh leader he's about helping people uh leader he's about helping people thrive and live great lives thrive and live great lives thrive and live great lives like Marx was born he was a spectacular like Marx was born he was a spectacular like Marx was born he was a spectacular athlete athlete athlete and first he lost his side and one eye and first he lost his side and one eye and first he lost his side and one eye then he lost his side and the other eye then he lost his side and the other eye then he lost his side and the other eye and then he fell out a window in a and then he fell out a window in a and then he fell out a window in a tragic experience like if there was ever tragic experience like if there was ever tragic experience like if there was ever a dude that was saying like living sucks a dude that was saying like living sucks a dude that was saying like living sucks you know and if there's any doubt in my you know and if there's any doubt in my you know and if there's any doubt in my mind something worse happens to me every mind something worse happens to me every mind something worse happens to me every few years few years few years but Mark's about being alive and but Mark's about being alive and but Mark's about being alive and inspiring other people inspiring other people inspiring other people so the hard part with navigating was so the hard part with navigating was so the hard part with navigating was somebody who's tossing it in because somebody who's tossing it in because somebody who's tossing it in because they there is a chemical imbalance or or they there is a chemical imbalance or or they there is a chemical imbalance or or there it's the way they're interpreting there it's the way they're interpreting there it's the way they're interpreting the world there's clutter in their head the world there's clutter in their head the world there's clutter in their head like how can you how can you help clear like how can you how can you help clear like how can you how can you help clear that clutter in her head and help him that clutter in her head and help him that clutter in her head and help him buy themselves buy themselves buy themselves Inspire them to reinterpret that world Inspire them to reinterpret that world Inspire them to reinterpret that world yeah as one worth living in yeah yeah as one worth living in yeah yeah as one worth living in yeah uh what do you think is the meaning of uh what do you think is the meaning of uh what do you think is the meaning of life life life was lost why why I live what's what's was lost why why I live what's what's was lost why why I live what's what's why what's what's a good reason well I why what's what's a good reason well I why what's what's a good reason well I have I have um I have very strong have I have um I have very strong have I have um I have very strong religious beliefs religious beliefs religious beliefs um um um spiritual you know I I don't a thousand spiritual you know I I don't a thousand spiritual you know I I don't a thousand percent if you were to try to confine me percent if you were to try to confine me percent if you were to try to confine me in a box in a box in a box um I'd be a Christian um I'd be a Christian um I'd be a Christian and I have tremendous respect for the and I have tremendous respect for the and I have tremendous respect for the Jewish I don't think any religions got

Jewish I don't think any religions got Jewish I don't think any religions got it nailed exactly it nailed exactly it nailed exactly I'm again you know I keep mentioning I'm again you know I keep mentioning I'm again you know I keep mentioning them I'm kind of a Bono Christian I them I'm kind of a Bono Christian I them I'm kind of a Bono Christian I think Bono's he's like what think Bono's he's like what think Bono's he's like what uh uh uh uh and I'm gonna butcher but you know my uh and I'm gonna butcher but you know my uh and I'm gonna butcher but you know my belief in Jesus is what I've got after belief in Jesus is what I've got after belief in Jesus is what I've got after Christianity leaves a room you know the Christianity leaves a room you know the Christianity leaves a room you know the dogma of man's application of spiritual dogma of man's application of spiritual dogma of man's application of spiritual beliefs beliefs beliefs so but that being said I I truly believe so but that being said I I truly believe so but that being said I I truly believe that my life was a gift and there's that my life was a gift and there's that my life was a gift and there's there's a purpose here and there's a purpose here and there's a purpose here and you know for my Creator decided that I you know for my Creator decided that I you know for my Creator decided that I woke up in the morning because he still woke up in the morning because he still woke up in the morning because he still had some cool interesting things for me had some cool interesting things for me had some cool interesting things for me to do to do to do and you have gratitude for having the and you have gratitude for having the and you have gratitude for having the opportunity to live that day yeah opportunity to live that day yeah opportunity to live that day yeah well you do one heck of a good job at well you do one heck of a good job at well you do one heck of a good job at Living those days I really appreciate Living those days I really appreciate Living those days I really appreciate your work I appreciate the person you your work I appreciate the person you your work I appreciate the person you are are are um thank you for uh just everything um thank you for uh just everything um thank you for uh just everything you've done today for just being you've done today for just being you've done today for just being empathic honestly you're a great empathic honestly you're a great empathic honestly you're a great listener you're a great listener you're a great listener you're a great conversationalist it's just an honor to conversationalist it's just an honor to conversationalist it's just an honor to meet you and to talk to you this was meet you and to talk to you this was meet you and to talk to you this was really awesome Chris my pleasure really awesome Chris my pleasure really awesome Chris my pleasure thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with Chris Voss to support conversation with Chris Voss to support conversation with Chris Voss to support this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let sponsors in the description and now let sponsors in the description and now let me leave you some words from John F me leave you some words from John F me leave you some words from John F Kennedy Kennedy Kennedy let us never negotiate out of fear let us never negotiate out of fear let us never negotiate out of fear but let us never fear to negotiate but let us never fear to negotiate but let us never fear to negotiate thank you for listening and hope to see thank you for listening and hope to see thank you for listening and hope to see you next time