James Holland: World War II, Hitler, Churchill, Stalin & Biggest Battles | Lex Fridman Podcast #470

And you see that manifest itself on And you see that manifest itself on D-Day where you've got D-Day where you've got D-Day where you've got 6,939 vessels of which there are 1,213 6,939 vessels of which there are 1,213 6,939 vessels of which there are 1,213 warships, warships, warships, 4,127 assaultcraft, 12 a half thousand 4,127 assaultcraft, 12 a half thousand 4,127 assaultcraft, 12 a half thousand aircraft, you know, 155,000 men landed aircraft, you know, 155,000 men landed aircraft, you know, 155,000 men landed and dropped from the air in 24-hour and dropped from the air in 24-hour and dropped from the air in 24-hour period. It is phenomenal. It is period. It is phenomenal. It is period. It is phenomenal. It is absolutely phenomenal. The following is a conversation with The following is a conversation with James Holland, a historian specializing James Holland, a historian specializing James Holland, a historian specializing in World War II, who has written a lot in World War II, who has written a lot in World War II, who has written a lot of amazing books on the subject, of amazing books on the subject, of amazing books on the subject, especially covering the Western Front, especially covering the Western Front, especially covering the Western Front, often providing fascinating details at often providing fascinating details at often providing fascinating details at multiple levels of analysis, including multiple levels of analysis, including multiple levels of analysis, including strategic, operational, tactical, strategic, operational, tactical, strategic, operational, tactical, technological, and of course, the human technological, and of course, the human technological, and of course, the human side, the personal accounts from the side, the personal accounts from the side, the personal accounts from the war. He also co-hosts a great podcast on war. He also co-hosts a great podcast on war. He also co-hosts a great podcast on World War II called We Have Ways of World War II called We Have Ways of World War II called We Have Ways of Making You Talk. This is a Lex Freeman Making You Talk. This is a Lex Freeman Making You Talk. This is a Lex Freeman podcast. To support it, please check out podcast. To support it, please check out podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description or at our sponsors in the description or at our sponsors in the description or at lexfreeman.com/sponsors. And now, dear lexfreeman.com/sponsors. And now, dear lexfreeman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, here's James Holland.

friends, here's James Holland. friends, here's James Holland. In volume one of the war in the west, In volume one of the war in the west, In volume one of the war in the west, your book series on World War II, you your book series on World War II, you your book series on World War II, you write, "The Second World War witnessed write, "The Second World War witnessed write, "The Second World War witnessed the deaths of more than 60 million the deaths of more than 60 million the deaths of more than 60 million people from over 60 different countries. people from over 60 different countries. people from over 60 different countries. Entire cities were laid waste. National Entire cities were laid waste. National Entire cities were laid waste. National borders were redrawn. And many millions borders were redrawn. And many millions borders were redrawn. And many millions more people found themselves displaced. more people found themselves displaced. more people found themselves displaced. Over the past couple of decades, many of Over the past couple of decades, many of Over the past couple of decades, many of those living in the Middle East or parts those living in the Middle East or parts those living in the Middle East or parts of Africa, the Balkans, Afghanistan, and of Africa, the Balkans, Afghanistan, and of Africa, the Balkans, Afghanistan, and even the United States may feel even the United States may feel even the United States may feel justifiably that these troubled times justifiably that these troubled times justifiably that these troubled times have already proved the most traumatic have already proved the most traumatic have already proved the most traumatic in their recent past. Yet, globally, the in their recent past. Yet, globally, the in their recent past. Yet, globally, the Second World War was and remains the Second World War was and remains the Second World War was and remains the single biggest catastrophe of modern single biggest catastrophe of modern single biggest catastrophe of modern history. In terms of human drama, it is history. In terms of human drama, it is history. In terms of human drama, it is unrivaled. No other war has affected so unrivaled. No other war has affected so unrivaled. No other war has affected so many lives in such a large number of many lives in such a large number of many lives in such a large number of countries. So what to you makes World countries. So what to you makes World countries. So what to you makes World War II the biggest catastrophe in human War II the biggest catastrophe in human War II the biggest catastrophe in human drama in modern history and maybe from a drama in modern history and maybe from a drama in modern history and maybe from a historian perspective the most historian perspective the most historian perspective the most fascinating subject to study thing about fascinating subject to study thing about fascinating subject to study thing about World War II is it really is truly World War II is it really is truly World War II is it really is truly global. You know it's fought in deserts.

global. You know it's fought in deserts. global. You know it's fought in deserts. It's fought in in in the Arctic. Um it's It's fought in in in the Arctic. Um it's It's fought in in in the Arctic. Um it's fought across oceans. It's fought in the fought across oceans. It's fought in the fought across oceans. It's fought in the air. Um it's in jungle. It's in the air. Um it's in jungle. It's in the air. Um it's in jungle. It's in the hills. It is on the beaches. Um it's hills. It is on the beaches. Um it's hills. It is on the beaches. Um it's also on the Russian step and it's also also on the Russian step and it's also also on the Russian step and it's also in Ukraine. Um so it's it's it's that in Ukraine. Um so it's it's it's that in Ukraine. Um so it's it's it's that global nature of it. And I just think global nature of it. And I just think global nature of it. And I just think you know where there's where there's war you know where there's where there's war you know where there's where there's war there is always incredible human drama. there is always incredible human drama. there is always incredible human drama. And I think for most people and And I think for most people and And I think for most people and certainly the true in my case you get certainly the true in my case you get certainly the true in my case you get drawn to the human drama of it. It's drawn to the human drama of it. It's drawn to the human drama of it. It's that thought that you know gosh if I'd that thought that you know gosh if I'd that thought that you know gosh if I'd been 20 years old how would I have dealt been 20 years old how would I have dealt been 20 years old how would I have dealt with it? You know would I have been in with it? You know would I have been in with it? You know would I have been in the army? Would I have been in the air the army? Would I have been in the air the army? Would I have been in the air force? would I been on a you know Royal force? would I been on a you know Royal force? would I been on a you know Royal Navy destroyer or you know how would I Navy destroyer or you know how would I Navy destroyer or you know how would I have coped with it and how would I have have coped with it and how would I have have coped with it and how would I have dealt with that separation? I mean I've dealt with that separation? I mean I've dealt with that separation? I mean I've interviewed people who were away for interviewed people who were away for interviewed people who were away for four years. I remember talking to a tank four years. I remember talking to a tank four years. I remember talking to a tank man from uh from Liverpool in England man from uh from Liverpool in England man from uh from Liverpool in England called Sam Bradshaw and he went away for called Sam Bradshaw and he went away for called Sam Bradshaw and he went away for four years and when he came home he'd four years and when he came home he'd four years and when he came home he'd been twice wounded. He'd been very badly been twice wounded. He'd been very badly been twice wounded. He'd been very badly wounded in North Africa and then he was wounded in North Africa and then he was wounded in North Africa and then he was shot in the neck in Italy. Eventually shot in the neck in Italy. Eventually shot in the neck in Italy. Eventually got home when he came home his mother got home when he came home his mother got home when he came home his mother had turned gray. his little baby sister had turned gray. his little baby sister had turned gray. his little baby sister who had been, you know, 13 when he left, who had been, you know, 13 when he left, who had been, you know, 13 when he left, was now a a young woman. His old school was now a a young woman. His old school was now a a young woman. His old school had been destroyed by Luftwaffer bombs.

had been destroyed by Luftwaffer bombs. had been destroyed by Luftwaffer bombs. He didn't recognize the place. And do He didn't recognize the place. And do He didn't recognize the place. And do you know what he did? He joined up you know what he did? He joined up you know what he did? He joined up again, went back out of Europe and was again, went back out of Europe and was again, went back out of Europe and was one of the first people in Bellson. So, one of the first people in Bellson. So, one of the first people in Bellson. So, you know, what was his justification for you know, what was his justification for you know, what was his justification for that for joining right back? He just that for joining right back? He just that for joining right back? He just felt completely disconnected to home. He felt completely disconnected to home. He felt completely disconnected to home. He felt that the the gulf of time, his felt that the the gulf of time, his felt that the the gulf of time, his experiences had separated him from all experiences had separated him from all experiences had separated him from all the normalities of life. And he felt the normalities of life. And he felt the normalities of life. And he felt that the the the normalities of the life that the the the normalities of the life that the the the normalities of the life that he had that he had that he had known before he'd gone away to war had known before he'd gone away to war had known before he'd gone away to war had just been severed in a really kind of just been severed in a really kind of just been severed in a really kind of cruel way that he didn't really feel he cruel way that he didn't really feel he cruel way that he didn't really feel he was able to confront at that particular was able to confront at that particular was able to confront at that particular point, but he decided to rejoin. point, but he decided to rejoin. point, but he decided to rejoin. Couldn't go back to the Third World Couldn't go back to the Third World Couldn't go back to the Third World Royal Tank Regiment. So, it went back to Royal Tank Regiment. So, it went back to Royal Tank Regiment. So, it went back to a different unit. Went from kind of the a different unit. Went from kind of the a different unit. Went from kind of the Italian campaign to European theater. um Italian campaign to European theater. um Italian campaign to European theater. um didn't see so much action at the end, didn't see so much action at the end, didn't see so much action at the end, but you know uh like a lot of British but you know uh like a lot of British but you know uh like a lot of British troops if if you were in a certain troops if if you were in a certain troops if if you were in a certain division at a certain time you know you division at a certain time you know you division at a certain time you know you ended up passing very close to Bellson ended up passing very close to Bellson ended up passing very close to Bellson and you know you suddenly realized okay and you know you suddenly realized okay and you know you suddenly realized okay this was the right thing to do you know this was the right thing to do you know this was the right thing to do you know we did have to get rid of Nazism we did we did have to get rid of Nazism we did we did have to get rid of Nazism we did have to do this because this is the have to do this because this is the have to do this because this is the consequence it's not just the oppression consequence it's not just the oppression consequence it's not just the oppression it's just not just the secret police it's just not just the secret police it's just not just the secret police it's not just the expansionism of Nazism it's not just the expansionism of Nazism it's not just the expansionism of Nazism it is also you know the Holocaust which it is also you know the Holocaust which it is also you know the Holocaust which hadn't been given its name at that point hadn't been given its name at that point hadn't been given its name at that point but but you know you're witnessing this but but you know you're witnessing this but but you know you're witnessing this kind of untold or cruelty. Um, and I kind of untold or cruelty. Um, and I kind of untold or cruelty. Um, and I always, you know, I've always sort of I always, you know, I've always sort of I always, you know, I've always sort of I think a lot about Sam. I mean, he's no think a lot about Sam. I mean, he's no think a lot about Sam. I mean, he's no longer with us, but um, he was one of longer with us, but um, he was one of longer with us, but um, he was one of the kind of first people that I the kind of first people that I the kind of first people that I interviewed and I interviewed him at interviewed and I interviewed him at interviewed and I interviewed him at great length. Uh, and I know you like a great length. Uh, and I know you like a great length. Uh, and I know you like a long interview, Lex. And, um, and I long interview, Lex. And, um, and I long interview, Lex. And, um, and I totally totally get that because when

totally totally get that because when totally totally get that because when you have a when you have a long you have a when you have a long you have a when you have a long interview, you really start getting to interview, you really start getting to interview, you really start getting to the nuts and bolts of it. One of the the nuts and bolts of it. One of the the nuts and bolts of it. One of the frustrations for me when I'm looking at frustrations for me when I'm looking at frustrations for me when I'm looking at at oral histories of of Second World War at oral histories of of Second World War at oral histories of of Second World War vets is usually they're kind of, you vets is usually they're kind of, you vets is usually they're kind of, you know, they're put on YouTube or they're know, they're put on YouTube or they're know, they're put on YouTube or they're put on a museum website, they're 30 put on a museum website, they're 30 put on a museum website, they're 30 minutes, you know, an hour if you're minutes, you know, an hour if you're minutes, you know, an hour if you're lucky and there you're just scratching lucky and there you're just scratching lucky and there you're just scratching the surface. You never you never really the surface. You never you never really the surface. You never you never really get to know it and you feel that they're get to know it and you feel that they're get to know it and you feel that they're just repeating kind of stuff they've just repeating kind of stuff they've just repeating kind of stuff they've read in books themselves after the war read in books themselves after the war read in books themselves after the war and stuff. And you know, I was kind of and stuff. And you know, I was kind of and stuff. And you know, I was kind of leave feeling frustrated that that I leave feeling frustrated that that I leave feeling frustrated that that I haven't had a chance to kind of grill haven't had a chance to kind of grill haven't had a chance to kind of grill them on the kind of stuff that I would them on the kind of stuff that I would them on the kind of stuff that I would grill them on if I was put in front of grill them on if I was put in front of grill them on if I was put in front of them. So, Tank Man, what what was maybe them. So, Tank Man, what what was maybe them. So, Tank Man, what what was maybe the most epic, the most intense or the the most epic, the most intense or the the most epic, the most intense or the most interesting story that he told you? most interesting story that he told you? most interesting story that he told you? Well, I do remember him telling me uh Well, I do remember him telling me uh Well, I do remember him telling me uh funny enough, it's not really about funny enough, it's not really about funny enough, it's not really about about the conflict. I remember him about the conflict. I remember him about the conflict. I remember him telling me about the importance of telling me about the importance of telling me about the importance of letters. And there was this there was letters. And there was this there was letters. And there was this there was this guy this guy this guy who literally every few weeks, you know, who literally every few weeks, you know, who literally every few weeks, you know, post would arrive intermittently. There post would arrive intermittently. There post would arrive intermittently. There was no kind of sort of regular post. So was no kind of sort of regular post. So was no kind of sort of regular post. So it was supposed to be regular, but it it it was supposed to be regular, but it it it was supposed to be regular, but it it didn't come around regularly. So you didn't come around regularly. So you didn't come around regularly. So you might suddenly suddenly get a flurry of might suddenly suddenly get a flurry of might suddenly suddenly get a flurry of five all in one day. But he said it was five all in one day. But he said it was five all in one day. But he said it was this guy and um in his tank member of a this guy and um in his tank member of a this guy and um in his tank member of a different tank troop. It was a good different tank troop. It was a good different tank troop. It was a good friend of his in the in the same friend of his in the in the same friend of his in the in the same squadron. get British Huff Squadrons for squadron. get British Huff Squadrons for squadron. get British Huff Squadrons for for for their armor and uh which as for for their armor and uh which as for for their armor and uh which as Americans would have a company. I should Americans would have a company. I should Americans would have a company. I should say that in your book, one of the say that in your book, one of the say that in your book, one of the wonderful things you do is you use the wonderful things you do is you use the wonderful things you do is you use the correct term in the language. Yeah. For correct term in the language. Yeah. For correct term in the language. Yeah. For the particular army involved whether the particular army involved whether the particular army involved whether it's the German or the British or the

it's the German or the British or the it's the German or the British or the American. Well, that's not to be American. Well, that's not to be American. Well, that's not to be pretentious. That's that's really just pretentious. That's that's really just pretentious. That's that's really just so it because you you're dealing with so so it because you you're dealing with so so it because you you're dealing with so many numbers and different units and it many numbers and different units and it many numbers and different units and it can go over your head and you can get can go over your head and you can get can go over your head and you can get sort of consumed by the detail if you're sort of consumed by the detail if you're sort of consumed by the detail if you're not careful. And as a reader, it can be not careful. And as a reader, it can be not careful. And as a reader, it can be very unsatisfying because you you just very unsatisfying because you you just very unsatisfying because you you just can't keep pace of everything. Um, so can't keep pace of everything. Um, so can't keep pace of everything. Um, so one of the things about writing in the one of the things about writing in the one of the things about writing in the vernacular German or or in the American vernacular German or or in the American vernacular German or or in the American spelling armore rather than ar maua as spelling armore rather than ar maua as spelling armore rather than ar maua as we would Brits would um spell it is it we would Brits would um spell it is it we would Brits would um spell it is it just immediately tells the reader, okay, just immediately tells the reader, okay, just immediately tells the reader, okay, this is American, okay, I've got that or this is American, okay, I've got that or this is American, okay, I've got that or this is German, I've got that or Italian this is German, I've got that or Italian this is German, I've got that or Italian or whatever it might be. But yeah, to go or whatever it might be. But yeah, to go or whatever it might be. But yeah, to go back to Sam. Sam, this there was this back to Sam. Sam, this there was this back to Sam. Sam, this there was this guy in in in his squadron and he'd get guy in in in his squadron and he'd get guy in in in his squadron and he'd get his letters from his from his his letters from his from his his letters from his from his girlfriend, his wife, and he said it was girlfriend, his wife, and he said it was girlfriend, his wife, and he said it was like it was like a soap opera. He he like it was like a soap opera. He he like it was like a soap opera. He he said we all just waited for his letters said we all just waited for his letters said we all just waited for his letters to come in so we could find out, you to come in so we could find out, you to come in so we could find out, you know, whether his, you know, his know, whether his, you know, his know, whether his, you know, his daughter had, you know, got to school, daughter had, you know, got to school, daughter had, you know, got to school, okay, or something, you know, won the okay, or something, you know, won the okay, or something, you know, won the swimming contest or whatever it was. You swimming contest or whatever it was. You swimming contest or whatever it was. You know, the sort of details of this sort know, the sort of details of this sort know, the sort of details of this sort of dayto-day kind of benile life was of dayto-day kind of benile life was of dayto-day kind of benile life was just absolute catnip to these guys. They just absolute catnip to these guys. They just absolute catnip to these guys. They absolutely loved it. And then the letter absolutely loved it. And then the letter absolutely loved it. And then the letter arrived, the Dear John letter, saying, arrived, the Dear John letter, saying, arrived, the Dear John letter, saying, "Sorry, I found someone else and and "Sorry, I found someone else and and "Sorry, I found someone else and and it's over." And his friend was just it's over." And his friend was just it's over." And his friend was just absolutely devastated. It was the only absolutely devastated. It was the only absolutely devastated. It was the only thing that was keeping him going. This thing that was keeping him going. This thing that was keeping him going. This sort of sense of this sort of continuity sort of sense of this sort of continuity sort of sense of this sort of continuity of of home, this sort of this this of of home, this sort of this this of of home, this sort of this this foundation of his life back at foundation of his life back at foundation of his life back at home.

home. home. And Sam said he could see was in a And Sam said he could see was in a And Sam said he could see was in a really really bad way. Mhm. and he really really bad way. Mhm. and he really really bad way. Mhm. and he thought, uh, he's going to do something thought, uh, he's going to do something thought, uh, he's going to do something stupid. And he went up to him and he stupid. And he went up to him and he stupid. And he went up to him and he said, "Look, you know, I know it's bad said, "Look, you know, I know it's bad said, "Look, you know, I know it's bad and I know it's terrible and I know and I know it's terrible and I know and I know it's terrible and I know you're absolutely devastated, but you you're absolutely devastated, but you you're absolutely devastated, but you got your mates here. Just don't do got your mates here. Just don't do got your mates here. Just don't do anything silly. Just, you know, maybe, anything silly. Just, you know, maybe, anything silly. Just, you know, maybe, you know, when it's all over, you can you know, when it's all over, you can you know, when it's all over, you can patch things up or sort things out." And patch things up or sort things out." And patch things up or sort things out." And he said, you know, you got to understand he said, you know, you got to understand he said, you know, you got to understand it from her point of view. You know, it from her point of view. You know, it from her point of view. You know, it's a long way. You haven't seen you it's a long way. You haven't seen you it's a long way. You haven't seen you for 2 years. This kind of stuff, you for 2 years. This kind of stuff, you for 2 years. This kind of stuff, you know, so just just don't do anything know, so just just don't do anything know, so just just don't do anything rash. And of course, the next next rash. And of course, the next next rash. And of course, the next next engagement, two days later, he was engagement, two days later, he was engagement, two days later, he was killed. and he said it was just a kind killed. and he said it was just a kind killed. and he said it was just a kind of he could he just knew that was going of he could he just knew that was going of he could he just knew that was going to happen. He said it was a sort of to happen. He said it was a sort of to happen. He said it was a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. That's self-fulfilling prophecy. That's self-fulfilling prophecy. That's something I've never forgotten that something I've never forgotten that something I've never forgotten that story. And I just thought, you story. And I just thought, you story. And I just thought, you know, it's about human drama. You know, know, it's about human drama. You know, know, it's about human drama. You know, that's that's that's the truth of it. that's that's that's the truth of it. that's that's that's the truth of it. And how people react to this totally And how people react to this totally And how people react to this totally alien situation. You know, for the most alien situation. You know, for the most alien situation. You know, for the most part, the Second World War is fought by part, the Second World War is fought by part, the Second World War is fought by ordinary everyday people doing ordinary everyday people doing ordinary everyday people doing extraordinary things. And I think that's extraordinary things. And I think that's extraordinary things. And I think that's something that's so fascinating. I something that's so fascinating. I something that's so fascinating. I suspect I I think I instinctively I'm suspect I I think I instinctively I'm suspect I I think I instinctively I'm quite slap dash I think. So I think I quite slap dash I think. So I think I quite slap dash I think. So I think I would have I'd have bought it would have I'd have bought it would have I'd have bought it literally. I don't think it would have literally. I don't think it would have literally. I don't think it would have ended well for me. I just I'm just a bit ended well for me. I just I'm just a bit ended well for me. I just I'm just a bit careless. Yeah. I think I also have an careless. Yeah. I think I also have an careless. Yeah. I think I also have an element in me where I can believe in the element in me where I can believe in the element in me where I can believe in the idea of idea of idea of nation and fight for a nation especially nation and fight for a nation especially nation and fight for a nation especially when the conflict is as grand. There are when the conflict is as grand. There are when the conflict is as grand. There are things worse than death. Yes. as as the things worse than death. Yes. as as the things worse than death. Yes. as as the propaganda would explain very clearly

propaganda would explain very clearly propaganda would explain very clearly but also in reality. Yes. So a nation but also in reality. Yes. So a nation but also in reality. Yes. So a nation you know you know you know France, Britain was you know maybe France, Britain was you know maybe France, Britain was you know maybe facing the prospect of being essentially facing the prospect of being essentially facing the prospect of being essentially enslaved. The Soviet enslaved. The Soviet enslaved. The Soviet Union was facing the prospect of being Union was facing the prospect of being Union was facing the prospect of being enslaved literally. I mean it was very enslaved literally. I mean it was very enslaved literally. I mean it was very very clearly stated what they're going very clearly stated what they're going very clearly stated what they're going to do. They're going to repopulate the to do. They're going to repopulate the to do. They're going to repopulate the land with Germanic people. So well land with Germanic people. So well land with Germanic people. So well they're not just going to do that. they're not just going to do that. they're not just going to do that. They're also going to starve lots and They're also going to starve lots and They're also going to starve lots and lots of um Soviet individuals to lots of um Soviet individuals to lots of um Soviet individuals to death by the hunger plan, for example, death by the hunger plan, for example, death by the hunger plan, for example, which is planned, you know, really very which is planned, you know, really very which is planned, you know, really very casually and not by the, you know, this casually and not by the, you know, this casually and not by the, you know, this is not SS units or anything like this. is not SS units or anything like this. is not SS units or anything like this. This is the Vermach. This is the This is the Vermach. This is the This is the Vermach. This is the economic division of the Obert Commando economic division of the Obert Commando economic division of the Obert Commando de Vermac, the German combined general de Vermac, the German combined general de Vermac, the German combined general staff. General Gayorg Thomas comes up staff. General Gayorg Thomas comes up staff. General Gayorg Thomas comes up with you know and Herman Baka they come with you know and Herman Baka they come with you know and Herman Baka they come up with the uh who's the kind of up with the uh who's the kind of up with the uh who's the kind of minister for food they come up you know minister for food they come up you know minister for food they come up you know what are we going to do you know we what are we going to do you know we what are we going to do you know we haven't got enough food you know largely haven't got enough food you know largely haven't got enough food you know largely because German um farming is inefficient because German um farming is inefficient because German um farming is inefficient and they think well you know this is and they think well you know this is and they think well you know this is part of we'll go in and we'll take the part of we'll go in and we'll take the part of we'll go in and we'll take the food and there's been this colossal food and there's been this colossal food and there's been this colossal urbanization of the Soviet Union since urbanization of the Soviet Union since urbanization of the Soviet Union since the revolution in the revolution in the revolution in 1917 so they're just not going to get 1917 so they're just not going to get 1917 so they're just not going to get their food you know these these people their food you know these these people their food you know these these people in these cities cuz we're going to take in these cities cuz we're going to take in these cities cuz we're going to take it all and that's going to lead to it all and that's going to lead to it all and that's going to lead to that's going to lead to a lot of deaths.

that's going to lead to a lot of deaths. that's going to lead to a lot of deaths. You You You know, teen millions is the phrase that know, teen millions is the phrase that know, teen millions is the phrase that Gail Thomas used. So, let's talk about Gail Thomas used. So, let's talk about Gail Thomas used. So, let's talk about the hunger plan. How important was the the hunger plan. How important was the the hunger plan. How important was the hunger plan and lab to Nazi ideology and hunger plan and lab to Nazi ideology and hunger plan and lab to Nazi ideology and to the whole Nazi war machine? It's to the whole Nazi war machine? It's to the whole Nazi war machine? It's central to the whole thing. This is all central to the whole thing. This is all central to the whole thing. This is all about this notion that is embedded into about this notion that is embedded into about this notion that is embedded into Hitler's mind and into the minds of the Hitler's mind and into the minds of the Hitler's mind and into the minds of the Nazi party right from the word go is Nazi party right from the word go is Nazi party right from the word go is there is a big sort of global conspiracy there is a big sort of global conspiracy there is a big sort of global conspiracy the Jewish bolevik plot I mean the Jewish bolevik plot I mean the Jewish bolevik plot I mean completely misplaced that Jews and completely misplaced that Jews and completely misplaced that Jews and Bolsheviks go hand in hand somehow Bolsheviks go hand in hand somehow Bolsheviks go hand in hand somehow dovetail they don't obviously and the dovetail they don't obviously and the dovetail they don't obviously and the whole ideology is to crush this you know whole ideology is to crush this you know whole ideology is to crush this you know part of the way the Nazis think the way part of the way the Nazis think the way part of the way the Nazis think the way Hitler thinks is there is them and Hitler thinks is there is them and Hitler thinks is there is them and there's us. We are the white northern there's us. We are the white northern there's us. We are the white northern European Aryans. We should be the master European Aryans. We should be the master European Aryans. We should be the master race. We've been we we've been race. We've been we we've been race. We've been we we've been threatened by a threatened by a threatened by a global Jewish bulvic plot. We've been global Jewish bulvic plot. We've been global Jewish bulvic plot. We've been stabbed in the back in 1918 at the end stabbed in the back in 1918 at the end stabbed in the back in 1918 at the end of the first world war. We need to have of the first world war. We need to have of the first world war. We need to have to overcome. This is an existential to overcome. This is an existential to overcome. This is an existential battle for future survival. It's a battle for future survival. It's a battle for future survival. It's a terrible task that has befallen our terrible task that has befallen our terrible task that has befallen our generation. But we have to do this. We generation. But we have to do this. We generation. But we have to do this. We have to overcome this or else we have no have to overcome this or else we have no have to overcome this or else we have no future. We will be crushed. It's future. We will be crushed. It's future. We will be crushed. It's absolutely cut and dry. And one of the absolutely cut and dry. And one of the absolutely cut and dry. And one of the things about Hitler is that he is a very things about Hitler is that he is a very things about Hitler is that he is a very kind of black and white them or us, kind of black and white them or us, kind of black and white them or us, either or kind of person. It's it's

either or kind of person. It's it's either or kind of person. It's it's always one thing or the other. It's a always one thing or the other. It's a always one thing or the other. It's a thousand-y year Reich or it's thousand-y year Reich or it's thousand-y year Reich or it's Armageddon. There is no there's no Armageddon. There is no there's no Armageddon. There is no there's no middle ground. There's no gray area. middle ground. There's no gray area. middle ground. There's no gray area. It's just one or the other. And that's It's just one or the other. And that's It's just one or the other. And that's how that's his worldview. And the reason how that's his worldview. And the reason how that's his worldview. And the reason he came to the four was was because of he came to the four was was because of he came to the four was was because of the crystal the crystal the crystal clear clarity of his message which is clear clarity of his message which is clear clarity of his message which is we've been stabbed in the back. There is we've been stabbed in the back. There is we've been stabbed in the back. There is a global plot. We have to overcome this. a global plot. We have to overcome this. a global plot. We have to overcome this. We are naturally the master race. We We are naturally the master race. We We are naturally the master race. We have to reassert ourselves. We have to have to reassert ourselves. We have to have to reassert ourselves. We have to get rid of global jewelry. We have to get rid of global jewelry. We have to get rid of global jewelry. We have to get rid of global bulsheism. And we have get rid of global bulsheism. And we have get rid of global bulsheism. And we have to prevail or else. But if we do to prevail or else. But if we do to prevail or else. But if we do prevail, what an amazing world it's prevail, what an amazing world it's prevail, what an amazing world it's going to be. So, so he starts with this, going to be. So, so he starts with this, going to be. So, so he starts with this, you know, every speech he does always you know, every speech he does always you know, every speech he does always starts with the same way. Always starts starts with the same way. Always starts starts with the same way. Always starts from a kind of negative and always ends from a kind of negative and always ends from a kind of negative and always ends with an incredible positive, this sort with an incredible positive, this sort with an incredible positive, this sort of rabble rousing crescendo of of of rabble rousing crescendo of of of rabble rousing crescendo of of of if you're in the front row, spittle of if you're in the front row, spittle of if you're in the front row, spittle halattosis and justiculation. I mean, halattosis and justiculation. I mean, halattosis and justiculation. I mean, you've seen pictures of him. I mean, I you've seen pictures of him. I mean, I you've seen pictures of him. I mean, I don't know if you've ever seen, but he's don't know if you've ever seen, but he's don't know if you've ever seen, but he's he's he's almost he wants to grab the he's he's almost he wants to grab the he's he's almost he wants to grab the air and clutch it to him. um you know, air and clutch it to him. um you know, air and clutch it to him. um you know, you can see the kind of the venom coming you can see the kind of the venom coming you can see the kind of the venom coming out of his mouth just in a single still out of his mouth just in a single still out of his mouth just in a single still photograph. I mean, it it it's amazing.

photograph. I mean, it it it's amazing. photograph. I mean, it it it's amazing. There's um apps you can get now where There's um apps you can get now where There's um apps you can get now where where you can translate his speeches, where you can translate his speeches, where you can translate his speeches, you know, just and it just sounds, you you know, just and it just sounds, you you know, just and it just sounds, you know, by today's standards, you would know, by today's standards, you would know, by today's standards, you would just think what a load of absolute just think what a load of absolute just think what a load of absolute wibble. I mean, just total nonsense. But wibble. I mean, just total nonsense. But wibble. I mean, just total nonsense. But but you have to kind of put yourself but you have to kind of put yourself but you have to kind of put yourself back in the shoes of people listening to back in the shoes of people listening to back in the shoes of people listening to him in 1922 or 23 or indeed 1933 and see him in 1922 or 23 or indeed 1933 and see him in 1922 or 23 or indeed 1933 and see how kind of captivating that is to a how kind of captivating that is to a how kind of captivating that is to a certain part of the part of the certain part of the part of the certain part of the part of the population. So yes so so the so to go population. So yes so so the so to go population. So yes so so the so to go back to your original point Libans is back to your original point Libans is back to your original point Libans is absolutely part of it. So what you do is absolutely part of it. So what you do is absolutely part of it. So what you do is you crush the bolevixs you crush world you crush the bolevixs you crush world you crush the bolevixs you crush world jewelry then you expand you know the jewelry then you expand you know the jewelry then you expand you know the Britain has had this incredible empire Britain has had this incredible empire Britain has had this incredible empire global empire you know Germany needs global empire you know Germany needs global empire you know Germany needs that too. Germanyy's stuck in Europe. It that too. Germanyy's stuck in Europe. It that too. Germanyy's stuck in Europe. It doesn't have access to the world's doesn't have access to the world's doesn't have access to the world's oceans. So, we're not going to be a oceans. So, we're not going to be a oceans. So, we're not going to be a maritime empire. We're going to be we're maritime empire. We're going to be we're maritime empire. We're going to be we're going to be a land mass empire, the going to be a land mass empire, the going to be a land mass empire, the whole of land mass of Europe and into whole of land mass of Europe and into whole of land mass of Europe and into Asia. That's going to be us. And we're Asia. That's going to be us. And we're Asia. That's going to be us. And we're going to take that land. We're going to going to take that land. We're going to going to take that land. We're going to take the the bread basket of of Ukraine. take the the bread basket of of Ukraine. take the the bread basket of of Ukraine. We're going to use that for our own own We're going to use that for our own own We're going to use that for our own own ends. We're going to spread our our uh ends. We're going to spread our our uh ends. We're going to spread our our uh we're going to make ourselves rich, but we're going to make ourselves rich, but we're going to make ourselves rich, but we're also going to spread our peoples.

we're also going to spread our peoples. we're also going to spread our peoples. we're going to spread the Aryan northern we're going to spread the Aryan northern we're going to spread the Aryan northern master race throughout um throughout master race throughout um throughout master race throughout um throughout Europe and into the traditional Slavic Europe and into the traditional Slavic Europe and into the traditional Slavic areas and and we will prevail and come areas and and we will prevail and come areas and and we will prevail and come out on top. And so you have to out on top. And so you have to out on top. And so you have to understand that that that everything understand that that that everything understand that that that everything about Operation Barbarasa, the planned about Operation Barbarasa, the planned about Operation Barbarasa, the planned invasion of the Soviet Union in June invasion of the Soviet Union in June invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941 1941 1941 is totally wrapped up is totally wrapped up is totally wrapped up in the Nazi ideology. And people, you in the Nazi ideology. And people, you in the Nazi ideology. And people, you know, I I' I've read it that historians know, I I' I've read it that historians know, I I' I've read it that historians go, if only Hitler had realized that, go, if only Hitler had realized that, go, if only Hitler had realized that, you know, the Ukrainians had been quite you know, the Ukrainians had been quite you know, the Ukrainians had been quite happy to kind of fight on his side. You happy to kind of fight on his side. You happy to kind of fight on his side. You know, if only he he'd actually brought know, if only he he'd actually brought know, if only he he'd actually brought some of these Jewish scientists and kind some of these Jewish scientists and kind some of these Jewish scientists and kind of into the Nazi fold, then Germany of into the Nazi fold, then Germany of into the Nazi fold, then Germany might have prevailed in World War II. might have prevailed in World War II. might have prevailed in World War II. And you kind of think, well, you're And you kind of think, well, you're And you kind of think, well, you're missing the entire point. That's just missing the entire point. That's just missing the entire point. That's just never going to happen because this is an never going to happen because this is an never going to happen because this is an ideological war. Yeah. This is not a ideological war. Yeah. This is not a ideological war. Yeah. This is not a pragmatic, pragmatic, pragmatic, rational leader. No, I mean part of his rational leader. No, I mean part of his rational leader. No, I mean part of his effectiveness, we should say, is effectiveness, we should say, is effectiveness, we should say, is probably this singular belief in this probably this singular belief in this probably this singular belief in this ideology. There's pros and ideology. There's pros and ideology. There's pros and cons for for an effective military cons for for an effective military cons for for an effective military machine, probably having that singular machine, probably having that singular machine, probably having that singular focus is effective. Yes. Except that focus is effective. Yes. Except that focus is effective. Yes. Except that when you're making military when you're making military when you're making military decisions, if those decisions are always decisions, if those decisions are always decisions, if those decisions are always being bracketed by an ideology which is being bracketed by an ideology which is being bracketed by an ideology which is fundamentally flawed from a pragmatic fundamentally flawed from a pragmatic fundamentally flawed from a pragmatic point of view as much as a kind of point of view as much as a kind of point of view as much as a kind of ethical, you know, a kind of reasonable ethical, you know, a kind of reasonable ethical, you know, a kind of reasonable point of view, um you're kind of opening point of view, um you're kind of opening point of view, um you're kind of opening yourselves up for for trouble. I mean, yourselves up for for trouble. I mean, yourselves up for for trouble. I mean, this is this is a problem he has with this is this is a problem he has with this is this is a problem he has with Barbara Rossa. you know, they they

Barbara Rossa. you know, they they Barbara Rossa. you know, they they realize very early on in 1941 when realize very early on in 1941 when realize very early on in 1941 when they're when they're wargaming this they're when they're wargaming this they're when they're wargaming this whole operation that it's not going to whole operation that it's not going to whole operation that it's not going to work. And so, you know, there people work. And so, you know, there people work. And so, you know, there people like like General Pow who's on the uh like like General Pow who's on the uh like like General Pow who's on the uh general staff at the time, you know, general staff at the time, you know, general staff at the time, you know, he's he's given a kind of, you know, he's he's given a kind of, you know, he's he's given a kind of, you know, he's in charge of kind of wargaming this he's in charge of kind of wargaming this he's in charge of kind of wargaming this and he goes, "This isn't going to work." and he goes, "This isn't going to work." and he goes, "This isn't going to work." And Kitel, who is the uh chief of the And Kitel, who is the uh chief of the And Kitel, who is the uh chief of the OKW, goes, "No, no, no, no, no. Go back OKW, goes, "No, no, no, no, no. Go back OKW, goes, "No, no, no, no, no. Go back and make it work." He goes, "Okay." So and make it work." He goes, "Okay." So and make it work." He goes, "Okay." So he comes up with a plan that does work, he comes up with a plan that does work, he comes up with a plan that does work, but it's bogus. I mean, it's just it but it's bogus. I mean, it's just it but it's bogus. I mean, it's just it doesn't work because they don't have doesn't work because they don't have doesn't work because they don't have enough. They don't have enough enough. They don't have enough enough. They don't have enough motoriization. You know, they go into motoriization. You know, they go into motoriization. You know, they go into Barbar Ross with 2,000 different types Barbar Ross with 2,000 different types Barbar Ross with 2,000 different types of vehicle. You know, every single one of vehicle. You know, every single one of vehicle. You know, every single one of those vehicles has to have, you know, of those vehicles has to have, you know, of those vehicles has to have, you know, different distributor caps and different distributor caps and different distributor caps and different leads and plugs and all sorts different leads and plugs and all sorts different leads and plugs and all sorts of different parts. you know, there's of different parts. you know, there's of different parts. you know, there's the the the the the the interoperability of the of the German interoperability of the of the German interoperability of the of the German mechanized arm is super inefficient. And mechanized arm is super inefficient. And mechanized arm is super inefficient. And so you've got huge problems because they so you've got huge problems because they so you've got huge problems because they kind of think, well, you know, we we kind of think, well, you know, we we kind of think, well, you know, we we took France in 1940 and that's kind of took France in 1940 and that's kind of took France in 1940 and that's kind of one of the most modern countries in the one of the most modern countries in the one of the most modern countries in the world with, you know, one of the world with, you know, one of the world with, you know, one of the greatest armies and armed forces in the greatest armies and armed forces in the greatest armies and armed forces in the world and we did that in six weeks. So, world and we did that in six weeks. So, world and we did that in six weeks. So, you know, Soviet Union, look, they you know, Soviet Union, look, they you know, Soviet Union, look, they struggled against Finland for goodness struggled against Finland for goodness struggled against Finland for goodness sake. I mean, how hard can it be, you sake. I mean, how hard can it be, you sake. I mean, how hard can it be, you know, but what you're failing to know, but what you're failing to know, but what you're failing to understand is is that attacking the understand is is that attacking the understand is is that attacking the Soviet Union is over a geographical land Soviet Union is over a geographical land Soviet Union is over a geographical land mass 10 times the size of France just on mass 10 times the size of France just on mass 10 times the size of France just on the frontage and you haven't really got the frontage and you haven't really got the frontage and you haven't really got much more mechanization than you had in

much more mechanization than you had in much more mechanization than you had in May 1940 when they attacked the low May 1940 when they attacked the low May 1940 when they attacked the low countries in France and you've actually countries in France and you've actually countries in France and you've actually got less Luftwaffer aircraft to support got less Luftwaffer aircraft to support got less Luftwaffer aircraft to support you and you just do not have the you and you just do not have the you and you just do not have the operational mechanics to make it work operational mechanics to make it work operational mechanics to make it work successfully. I mean, it is largely down successfully. I mean, it is largely down successfully. I mean, it is largely down to incompetence of the Red Army and the to incompetence of the Red Army and the to incompetence of the Red Army and the Soviet leadership in the summer of 1941 Soviet leadership in the summer of 1941 Soviet leadership in the summer of 1941 that they get as far as they do. I mean, that they get as far as they do. I mean, that they get as far as they do. I mean, you know, Barbarosa should never have you know, Barbarosa should never have you know, Barbarosa should never have come close to being a a victory. Let's come close to being a a victory. Let's come close to being a a victory. Let's talk through it. So, Operation Barbar talk through it. So, Operation Barbar talk through it. So, Operation Barbar Roa that you're mentioning, and we'll go Roa that you're mentioning, and we'll go Roa that you're mentioning, and we'll go back. Yes. We jump straight into it. back. Yes. We jump straight into it. back. Yes. We jump straight into it. I've I've eaten eaten off two years of I've I've eaten eaten off two years of I've I've eaten eaten off two years of war. So this is June war. So this is June war. So this is June 1941, Operation Barbar Roa, when Hitler 1941, Operation Barbar Roa, when Hitler 1941, Operation Barbar Roa, when Hitler invades the Soviet Union with I think invades the Soviet Union with I think invades the Soviet Union with I think the largest invading force in history up the largest invading force in history up the largest invading force in history up to that point collectively. Yeah. And to that point collectively. Yeah. And to that point collectively. Yeah. And there's three prongs. Army Group North, there's three prongs. Army Group North, there's three prongs. Army Group North, Army Group Center, Army Group South. Army Group Center, Army Group South. Army Group Center, Army Group South. North is going to Lennengrad. Center is North is going to Lennengrad. Center is North is going to Lennengrad. Center is going uh it's the strongest group going going uh it's the strongest group going going uh it's the strongest group going directly towards Moscow. And South is directly towards Moscow. And South is directly towards Moscow. And South is going and targeting Ukraine and the going and targeting Ukraine and the going and targeting Ukraine and the caucus. So can you linger on that on the caucus. So can you linger on that on the caucus. So can you linger on that on the details of this plan? What was the details of this plan? What was the details of this plan? What was the thinking? What was the strategy? What thinking? What was the strategy? What thinking? What was the strategy? What was the tactics? What was the logistics?

was the tactics? What was the logistics? was the tactics? What was the logistics? Now we should there's so many things to Now we should there's so many things to Now we should there's so many things to say but one of them is to say that you say but one of them is to say that you say but one of them is to say that you often emphasize the importance of three often emphasize the importance of three often emphasize the importance of three ways to analyze military conflict of the ways to analyze military conflict of the ways to analyze military conflict of the strategic, the operational and the strategic, the operational and the strategic, the operational and the tactical. and operation of those is tactical. and operation of those is tactical. and operation of those is often not given enough time attention often not given enough time attention often not given enough time attention and it's the and it's the and it's the logistics that make the war machine logistics that make the war machine logistics that make the war machine really work successfully or fail. Yeah, really work successfully or fail. Yeah, really work successfully or fail. Yeah, that's absolutely um absolutely spot on. that's absolutely um absolutely spot on. that's absolutely um absolutely spot on. And it's interesting because the vast And it's interesting because the vast And it's interesting because the vast majority of uh general histories of majority of uh general histories of majority of uh general histories of World War II tend to focus on the World War II tend to focus on the World War II tend to focus on the strategic and the tactical. So what do I strategic and the tactical. So what do I strategic and the tactical. So what do I mean by that? world strategic just for mean by that? world strategic just for mean by that? world strategic just for the for those who don't know that's your the for those who don't know that's your the for those who don't know that's your overall war aims you know get to Moscow overall war aims you know get to Moscow overall war aims you know get to Moscow whatever it might be conquer the world whatever it might be conquer the world whatever it might be conquer the world that's your strategy the tactical side that's your strategy the tactical side that's your strategy the tactical side of things is that's the coalace of war of things is that's the coalace of war of things is that's the coalace of war that's the attritional bit that's the that's the attritional bit that's the that's the attritional bit that's the following his spitfire the tank crew the following his spitfire the tank crew the following his spitfire the tank crew the the soldier in his foxhole it's the the soldier in his foxhole it's the the soldier in his foxhole it's the actual kinetic fighting bit the actual kinetic fighting bit the actual kinetic fighting bit the operational bit is the level of war that operational bit is the level of war that operational bit is the level of war that that links the strategic to the tactical that links the strategic to the tactical that links the strategic to the tactical so it is absolutely factory ries, it's so it is absolutely factory ries, it's so it is absolutely factory ries, it's economics, it's shipping, it's supply economics, it's shipping, it's supply economics, it's shipping, it's supply chains, it's how you manage your war.

chains, it's how you manage your war. chains, it's how you manage your war. And one of the things where I think And one of the things where I think And one of the things where I think people have been guilty in the past, people have been guilty in the past, people have been guilty in the past, historians have been guilty in the past historians have been guilty in the past historians have been guilty in the past is by judging is by judging is by judging warfare all on the same level. But warfare all on the same level. But warfare all on the same level. But obviously every competent nation has a obviously every competent nation has a obviously every competent nation has a different approach to war because of the different approach to war because of the different approach to war because of the nation they are, the size they are, nation they are, the size they are, nation they are, the size they are, their geographical location. So Britain their geographical location. So Britain their geographical location. So Britain for example is an island nation. Its for example is an island nation. Its for example is an island nation. Its priority is the Royal Navy, which is why priority is the Royal Navy, which is why priority is the Royal Navy, which is why the Royal Navy is known as the senior the Royal Navy is known as the senior the Royal Navy is known as the senior service. And you know, in 1939, it's service. And you know, in 1939, it's service. And you know, in 1939, it's easy to forget it now when you see how easy to forget it now when you see how easy to forget it now when you see how depleted Britain is today, but 1939, it depleted Britain is today, but 1939, it depleted Britain is today, but 1939, it has comfortably the world's largest um has comfortably the world's largest um has comfortably the world's largest um navy, something like 194 destroyers. Uh navy, something like 194 destroyers. Uh navy, something like 194 destroyers. Uh um I think it's 15 um I think it's 15 um I think it's 15 battleships, seven aircraft carriers, battleships, seven aircraft carriers, battleships, seven aircraft carriers, and another kind of six on the way. and another kind of six on the way. and another kind of six on the way. America, it's got Pacific Ocean, it's America, it's got Pacific Ocean, it's America, it's got Pacific Ocean, it's got the Atlantic Ocean, it's got two got the Atlantic Ocean, it's got two got the Atlantic Ocean, it's got two seabboards, you know, it has the second seabboards, you know, it has the second seabboards, you know, it has the second largest navy in the world, but a tiny largest navy in the world, but a tiny largest navy in the world, but a tiny army. I mean, the army, the US army in army. I mean, the army, the US army in army. I mean, the army, the US army in 19 September 1949 is the 19th largest in 19 September 1949 is the 19th largest in 19 September 1949 is the 19th largest in the in the world, sandwiched between the in the world, sandwiched between the in the world, sandwiched between Portugal and Uruguay. And it's just Portugal and Uruguay. And it's just Portugal and Uruguay. And it's just incredible. It's like 189,000 strong, incredible. It's like 189,000 strong, incredible. It's like 189,000 strong, which might seem reasonably large by which might seem reasonably large by which might seem reasonably large by today's standards, but is absolutely today's standards, but is absolutely today's standards, but is absolutely tiny by 1939 standards, you know.

tiny by 1939 standards, you know. tiny by 1939 standards, you know. whereas you know Germany's got an army whereas you know Germany's got an army whereas you know Germany's got an army of you know 3 and a half million in of you know 3 and a half million in of you know 3 and a half million in 1939. So you know these are big big big 1939. So you know these are big big big 1939. So you know these are big big big differences but but America's coming at differences but but America's coming at differences but but America's coming at it from a different perspective. it from a different perspective. it from a different perspective. Britain's coming up about it from a Britain's coming up about it from a Britain's coming up about it from a different perspective. You know different perspective. You know different perspective. You know Britain's Britain's empire is all about Britain's Britain's empire is all about Britain's Britain's empire is all about you know it's it's a shipping it's a you know it's it's a shipping it's a you know it's it's a shipping it's a it's a it's a seaborn it's a it's a seaborn it's a it's a seaborn empire. Whereas there's also another empire. Whereas there's also another empire. Whereas there's also another point which which is having large armies point which which is having large armies point which which is having large armies is actually inherently impractical and is actually inherently impractical and is actually inherently impractical and inefficient because the larger army, the inefficient because the larger army, the inefficient because the larger army, the more people you got to feed, the more more people you got to feed, the more more people you got to feed, the more kind of barracks you've got to have, the kind of barracks you've got to have, the kind of barracks you've got to have, the more space you've got to have for more space you've got to have for more space you've got to have for training, the more people you're taking training, the more people you're taking training, the more people you're taking out of your workforce to produce tanks out of your workforce to produce tanks out of your workforce to produce tanks and shells and all the rest of it and shells and all the rest of it and shells and all the rest of it because they're tramping around with because they're tramping around with because they're tramping around with rifles, you know. So there's an argument rifles, you know. So there's an argument rifles, you know. So there's an argument saying saying actually it's really not saying saying actually it's really not saying saying actually it's really not not a very good way of doing things. So, not a very good way of doing things. So, not a very good way of doing things. So, you know, very much the uh the British you know, very much the uh the British you know, very much the uh the British way and and subsequently the United way and and subsequently the United way and and subsequently the United States way and way of Britain's States way and way of Britain's States way and way of Britain's dominions and and and empire is to use dominions and and and empire is to use dominions and and and empire is to use kind of steel, not our flesh as a as a kind of steel, not our flesh as a as a kind of steel, not our flesh as a as a principle. This is the idea is that you principle. This is the idea is that you principle. This is the idea is that you use technology, mechanization, use technology, mechanization, use technology, mechanization, modernity, global reach to do a lot of modernity, global reach to do a lot of modernity, global reach to do a lot of your hard yards. That's the sort of your hard yards. That's the sort of your hard yards. That's the sort of basic principle behind the the strategic basic principle behind the the strategic basic principle behind the the strategic air campaign. When we talk about the air campaign. When we talk about the air campaign. When we talk about the strategic air campaign, we're talking strategic air campaign, we're talking strategic air campaign, we're talking about strategic air forces which are about strategic air forces which are about strategic air forces which are operating in isolation from other armed operating in isolation from other armed operating in isolation from other armed forces. So a tactical air force, for forces. So a tactical air force, for forces. So a tactical air force, for example, is is an air force which is example, is is an air force which is example, is is an air force which is offering close air support for ground offering close air support for ground offering close air support for ground operations. A strategic air force has operations. A strategic air force has operations. A strategic air force has got nothing to do with ground got nothing to do with ground got nothing to do with ground operations. It's just operating on its operations. It's just operating on its operations. It's just operating on its own. So that's your bomber force or own. So that's your bomber force or own. So that's your bomber force or whatever, you know, that's your your whatever, you know, that's your your whatever, you know, that's your your your B7s and B244s of the Aair force

your B7s and B244s of the Aair force your B7s and B244s of the Aair force flying out of East England bombing the flying out of East England bombing the flying out of East England bombing the rural industrial complex of Germany or rural industrial complex of Germany or rural industrial complex of Germany or whatever it might be. So it's important whatever it might be. So it's important whatever it might be. So it's important to understand that when you compare you to understand that when you compare you to understand that when you compare you have to have the back of your mind that have to have the back of your mind that have to have the back of your mind that Britain compared to Germany for example Britain compared to Germany for example Britain compared to Germany for example is coming at it from a completely is coming at it from a completely is coming at it from a completely different perspective. And I would say different perspective. And I would say different perspective. And I would say one of the failures of Hitler is that he one of the failures of Hitler is that he one of the failures of Hitler is that he always views everybody through his own always views everybody through his own always views everybody through his own very narrow worldview which is not very narrow worldview which is not very narrow worldview which is not particularly helpful. You know you want particularly helpful. You know you want particularly helpful. You know you want to get inside the head of your enemy and to get inside the head of your enemy and to get inside the head of your enemy and you know he's he's sort of guilty of not you know he's he's sort of guilty of not you know he's he's sort of guilty of not doing that. So when you're talking about doing that. So when you're talking about doing that. So when you're talking about operation Barbarasa to go back back to operation Barbarasa to go back back to operation Barbarasa to go back back to your original question next you're your original question next you're your original question next you're dealing with an operation on such a vast dealing with an operation on such a vast dealing with an operation on such a vast scale that that operational level of war scale that that operational level of war scale that that operational level of war is absolutely vital to its chances of is absolutely vital to its chances of is absolutely vital to its chances of success or failure. Doesn't matter how success or failure. Doesn't matter how success or failure. Doesn't matter how good your individual commanders are at good your individual commanders are at good your individual commanders are at the front. If you haven't got the backup the front. If you haven't got the backup the front. If you haven't got the backup it's not going to work. And the problem it's not going to work. And the problem it's not going to work. And the problem that the Germans have is yes, they've that the Germans have is yes, they've that the Germans have is yes, they've got their kind of, you know, three got their kind of, you know, three got their kind of, you know, three million men on the front and they've got million men on the front and they've got million men on the front and they've got their kind of, you know, 3,000 aircraft their kind of, you know, 3,000 aircraft their kind of, you know, 3,000 aircraft and and all the rest of it, but actually and and all the rest of it, but actually and and all the rest of it, but actually what you need to do is break it down and what you need to do is break it down and what you need to do is break it down and who is doing the hard yards of that and who is doing the hard yards of that and who is doing the hard yards of that and way the German war machine works is that way the German war machine works is that way the German war machine works is that the machine bit is only the spearhead.

the machine bit is only the spearhead. the machine bit is only the spearhead. So people always talk about the Nazi war So people always talk about the Nazi war So people always talk about the Nazi war machine. In a way, it's a kind of machine. In a way, it's a kind of machine. In a way, it's a kind of misnomer because you're you're sort of misnomer because you're you're sort of misnomer because you're you're sort of suggesting that it's highly mechanized suggesting that it's highly mechanized suggesting that it's highly mechanized and industrialized and all the rest of and industrialized and all the rest of and industrialized and all the rest of it. And nothing could be further from it. And nothing could be further from it. And nothing could be further from the truth. The spearhead is, but the the truth. The spearhead is, but the the truth. The spearhead is, but the rest of it is not. And this is the kind rest of it is not. And this is the kind rest of it is not. And this is the kind of fatal flaw of of the German armed of fatal flaw of of the German armed of fatal flaw of of the German armed forces forces forces in in the whole of World War II really, in in the whole of World War II really, in in the whole of World War II really, but but even in this early stage because but but even in this early stage because but but even in this early stage because in Barbarasa you're talking about 17 in Barbarasa you're talking about 17 in Barbarasa you're talking about 17 Panza divisions out of you know 100 odd Panza divisions out of you know 100 odd Panza divisions out of you know 100 odd that are involved in the initial attack. that are involved in the initial attack. that are involved in the initial attack. Well 17 that a Panza division is not a Well 17 that a Panza division is not a Well 17 that a Panza division is not a division full of panzas tanks. It is a division full of panzas tanks. It is a division full of panzas tanks. It is a combined arms motorized outfit. combined arms motorized outfit. combined arms motorized outfit. So scouts on BMWs with side cars, uh um So scouts on BMWs with side cars, uh um So scouts on BMWs with side cars, uh um armored cars, infantry, grenaders, armored cars, infantry, grenaders, armored cars, infantry, grenaders, panzer grenaders, which are infantry in panzer grenaders, which are infantry in panzer grenaders, which are infantry in halftracks and trucks, mechanized, um it halftracks and trucks, mechanized, um it halftracks and trucks, mechanized, um it is motorized artillery, it is motorized is motorized artillery, it is motorized is motorized artillery, it is motorized anti-aircraft artillery. It is motorized anti-aircraft artillery. It is motorized anti-aircraft artillery. It is motorized anti-tank artillery. And of course, it anti-tank artillery. And of course, it anti-tank artillery. And of course, it is tanks as well, panzas. But those are is tanks as well, panzas. But those are is tanks as well, panzas. But those are a really really small proportion of you a really really small proportion of you a really really small proportion of you know you're talking less than 20% of know you're talking less than 20% of know you're talking less than 20% of your of your attacking force are those your of your attacking force are those your of your attacking force are those spearhead forces and inevitably they are spearhead forces and inevitably they are spearhead forces and inevitably they are going to be attritted as they go you going to be attritted as they go you going to be attritted as they go you know you are going to take casualties know you are going to take casualties know you are going to take casualties and not only that you're not going to and not only that you're not going to and not only that you're not going to just take battlefield casualties you're just take battlefield casualties you're just take battlefield casualties you're also going to have mechanical casualties also going to have mechanical casualties also going to have mechanical casualties because of the huge spaces involved you because of the huge spaces involved you because of the huge spaces involved you just simply can't function so what you

just simply can't function so what you just simply can't function so what you see is in the initial phases of of see is in the initial phases of of see is in the initial phases of of operation Barbarasa they surge forward operation Barbarasa they surge forward operation Barbarasa they surge forward red army's absolutely no answers to red army's absolutely no answers to red army's absolutely no answers to anything. Stalin weirdly hasn't heeded anything. Stalin weirdly hasn't heeded anything. Stalin weirdly hasn't heeded the all the warnings that this this the all the warnings that this this the all the warnings that this this attack is brewing and there have been attack is brewing and there have been attack is brewing and there have been plenty incidentally halinsk falls on the plenty incidentally halinsk falls on the plenty incidentally halinsk falls on the 15th of July you know in less than four 15th of July you know in less than four 15th of July you know in less than four weeks it's just incredible three and a weeks it's just incredible three and a weeks it's just incredible three and a half weeks has gone you know they've half weeks has gone you know they've half weeks has gone you know they've done overwhelmed the rest of what had done overwhelmed the rest of what had done overwhelmed the rest of what had been Poland they surged into what is now been Poland they surged into what is now been Poland they surged into what is now barus taken all you know this is army barus taken all you know this is army barus taken all you know this is army group center uh army group north is group center uh army group north is group center uh army group north is thrust up into the into the Baltic it's thrust up into the into the Baltic it's thrust up into the into the Baltic it's all going swimmingly well but then the all going swimmingly well but then the all going swimmingly well but then the next several months They barely go 100 next several months They barely go 100 next several months They barely go 100 miles and that's because they're running miles and that's because they're running miles and that's because they're running out of steam. And and the 16th Panza out of steam. And and the 16th Panza out of steam. And and the 16th Panza division, for example, by the time it's division, for example, by the time it's division, for example, by the time it's taken Smealinsk involved in taking taken Smealinsk involved in taking taken Smealinsk involved in taking Smelinsk on the 15th of July 1941, the Smelinsk on the 15th of July 1941, the Smelinsk on the 15th of July 1941, the following day it's got 16 tanks left following day it's got 16 tanks left following day it's got 16 tanks left 16 out of you know should have 180. So 16 out of you know should have 180. So 16 out of you know should have 180. So it's just being a TR. They can't sustain it's just being a TR. They can't sustain it's just being a TR. They can't sustain it. and they can't sustain it because as it. and they can't sustain it because as it. and they can't sustain it because as the Russians fall back, as the Soviet the Russians fall back, as the Soviet the Russians fall back, as the Soviet Red Army falls back, they do their own Red Army falls back, they do their own Red Army falls back, they do their own scorched earth policy. They also scorched earth policy. They also scorched earth policy. They also discover that the railway line is kind discover that the railway line is kind discover that the railway line is kind of a different loading gauge. So, of a different loading gauge. So, of a different loading gauge. So, they've got to change it. So, it's they've got to change it. So, it's they've got to change it. So, it's slightly the Russian loading gauge is slightly the Russian loading gauge is slightly the Russian loading gauge is slightly wider. So, every single mile, slightly wider. So, every single mile, slightly wider. So, every single mile, every yard, every foot, every meter of every yard, every foot, every meter of every yard, every foot, every meter of that they're they're capturing of of that they're they're capturing of of that they're they're capturing of of Russian railway has to be moved a couple Russian railway has to be moved a couple Russian railway has to be moved a couple of inches to the left to make it fit the

of inches to the left to make it fit the of inches to the left to make it fit the German criggs lock in the standard train German criggs lock in the standard train German criggs lock in the standard train of locomotive of the of the Reichkes of locomotive of the of the Reichkes of locomotive of the of the Reichkes bar. Just imagine what that's like. And bar. Just imagine what that's like. And bar. Just imagine what that's like. And also, Soviet trains are bigger, so they also, Soviet trains are bigger, so they also, Soviet trains are bigger, so they can take more water, which means the can take more water, which means the can take more water, which means the water stops in between are fewer and far water stops in between are fewer and far water stops in between are fewer and far between. So they have to the Germans between. So they have to the Germans between. So they have to the Germans when they come in their trains their when they come in their trains their when they come in their trains their creeks lock are smaller so they have to creeks lock are smaller so they have to creeks lock are smaller so they have to have be rewatered more often and have be rewatered more often and have be rewatered more often and recalled more often. So they have to I recalled more often. So they have to I recalled more often. So they have to I mean it's it's absolutely boggling just mean it's it's absolutely boggling just mean it's it's absolutely boggling just how complicated it is and how badly how complicated it is and how badly how complicated it is and how badly planned it is because they haven't planned it is because they haven't planned it is because they haven't reckoned on this. They're having to kind reckoned on this. They're having to kind reckoned on this. They're having to kind of think on their feet. I love the the of think on their feet. I love the the of think on their feet. I love the the logistical details of all this because logistical details of all this because logistical details of all this because yes that's a huge component of this yes that's a huge component of this yes that's a huge component of this especially when you cover that much especially when you cover that much especially when you cover that much territory. But there is a notion that if territory. But there is a notion that if territory. But there is a notion that if Hitler didn't stop uh army group center, Hitler didn't stop uh army group center, Hitler didn't stop uh army group center, it could have pushed all the way to it could have pushed all the way to it could have pushed all the way to Moscow. It was it was only maybe a 100 Moscow. It was it was only maybe a 100 Moscow. It was it was only maybe a 100 miles away from Moscow. Is that is that miles away from Moscow. Is that is that miles away from Moscow. Is that is that is that a possibility? Cuz it had so is that a possibility? Cuz it had so is that a possibility? Cuz it had so much success in the early days pushing much success in the early days pushing much success in the early days pushing forward. Do you think it's possible that forward. Do you think it's possible that forward. Do you think it's possible that if Hitler, as we mentioned from a if Hitler, as we mentioned from a if Hitler, as we mentioned from a military blunder perspective, didn't military blunder perspective, didn't military blunder perspective, didn't make that blunder that uh they could make that blunder that uh they could make that blunder that uh they could have defeated the Soviet Union right have defeated the Soviet Union right have defeated the Soviet Union right there and then. Well, my my own view is there and then. Well, my my own view is there and then. Well, my my own view is that they should never have got close.

that they should never have got close. that they should never have got close. You Red Army has plenty of men to be You Red Army has plenty of men to be You Red Army has plenty of men to be able to see off anything that the the able to see off anything that the the able to see off anything that the the Germans can do. The capture of Keev, for Germans can do. The capture of Keev, for Germans can do. The capture of Keev, for example, in September example, in September example, in September 1941 was a catastrophe for for the 1941 was a catastrophe for for the 1941 was a catastrophe for for the Soviet Union and should never have Soviet Union and should never have Soviet Union and should never have happened. I mean, Zukov is saying to happened. I mean, Zukov is saying to happened. I mean, Zukov is saying to saying to Stalin, we got to pull back saying to Stalin, we got to pull back saying to Stalin, we got to pull back across the across the across the Denipo. St can't possibly do that. You Denipo. St can't possibly do that. You Denipo. St can't possibly do that. You can't abandon Kee. It's like third city can't abandon Kee. It's like third city can't abandon Kee. It's like third city in Soviet Union. No way. No, absolutely in Soviet Union. No way. No, absolutely in Soviet Union. No way. No, absolutely not. And he goes, well, we just we are not. And he goes, well, we just we are not. And he goes, well, we just we are just going to be overwhelmed. You know, just going to be overwhelmed. You know, just going to be overwhelmed. You know, we we can't hold this. and and he says, we we can't hold this. and and he says, we we can't hold this. and and he says, you know, either back me or or farm me. you know, either back me or or farm me. you know, either back me or or farm me. Back me or sack me. So Stalin sacks him. Back me or sack me. So Stalin sacks him. Back me or sack me. So Stalin sacks him. Uh uh yeah, obviously as we know, Zukov Uh uh yeah, obviously as we know, Zukov Uh uh yeah, obviously as we know, Zukov gets um rehabilitated in pretty quick gets um rehabilitated in pretty quick gets um rehabilitated in pretty quick order and Stalin does learn very quickly order and Stalin does learn very quickly order and Stalin does learn very quickly after thereafter to learn the lessons, after thereafter to learn the lessons, after thereafter to learn the lessons, but the opening phase of Bar Ross has but the opening phase of Bar Ross has but the opening phase of Bar Ross has been a catastrophe. And so as a been a catastrophe. And so as a been a catastrophe. And so as a consequence of Stalin refusing to let consequence of Stalin refusing to let consequence of Stalin refusing to let his men retreat back across the Dunipa, his men retreat back across the Dunipa, his men retreat back across the Dunipa, which is a substantial barrier and would which is a substantial barrier and would which is a substantial barrier and would have been very difficult for the Germans have been very difficult for the Germans have been very difficult for the Germans to overwhelm had they not had they moved to overwhelm had they not had they moved to overwhelm had they not had they moved back in time. Um, you know, that's back in time. Um, you know, that's back in time. Um, you know, that's another kind of 700,000 men put in the another kind of 700,000 men put in the another kind of 700,000 men put in the bag. I mean, that's just staggering bag. I mean, that's just staggering bag. I mean, that's just staggering numbers.

numbers. numbers. Um, but yeah, I mean, there's so many Um, but yeah, I mean, there's so many Um, but yeah, I mean, there's so many things wrong with the Barbarasa plan. things wrong with the Barbarasa plan. things wrong with the Barbarasa plan. you know, too much over. It's just such you know, too much over. It's just such you know, too much over. It's just such a vast area. I mean, you're talking a vast area. I mean, you're talking a vast area. I mean, you're talking about kind of, you know, 2,500 miles or about kind of, you know, 2,500 miles or about kind of, you know, 2,500 miles or something, you know, of frontage, you something, you know, of frontage, you something, you know, of frontage, you know, maybe if you kind of put your your know, maybe if you kind of put your your know, maybe if you kind of put your your your Panza groups, which are these your Panza groups, which are these your Panza groups, which are these spearheads, and you put them all in one spearheads, and you put them all in one spearheads, and you put them all in one big big big frustr straight across on a kind of, you frustr straight across on a kind of, you frustr straight across on a kind of, you know, much more narrow front of, let's know, much more narrow front of, let's know, much more narrow front of, let's say, kind of 400 miles rather than say, kind of 400 miles rather than say, kind of 400 miles rather than 1,200, then they might have got, you 1,200, then they might have got, you 1,200, then they might have got, you know, they might have just sort of burnt know, they might have just sort of burnt know, they might have just sort of burnt away straight through to Moscow. They away straight through to Moscow. They away straight through to Moscow. They really caught the Red Army unprepared. really caught the Red Army unprepared. really caught the Red Army unprepared. Yeah. Is there um something to be said Yeah. Is there um something to be said Yeah. Is there um something to be said about the the strategic genius of that about the the strategic genius of that about the the strategic genius of that or was it just luck? No, I don't think or was it just luck? No, I don't think or was it just luck? No, I don't think so. I I mean I think think what's so. I I mean I think think what's so. I I mean I think think what's happened is you've had the you've had happened is you've had the you've had happened is you've had the you've had the the Soviet purges of the of the the the Soviet purges of the of the the the Soviet purges of the of the second half of the 1930s where they've second half of the 1930s where they've second half of the 1930s where they've you know they have executed or you know they have executed or you know they have executed or imprisoned 22 and a half thousand imprisoned 22 and a half thousand imprisoned 22 and a half thousand officers of which you know three out of officers of which you know three out of officers of which you know three out of five marshals five marshals five marshals um you know god knows how many army um you know god knows how many army um you know god knows how many army commanders um etc etc. So so you know commanders um etc etc. So so you know commanders um etc etc. So so you know you've completely you've completely you've completely decapitated the Red Army in terms of its decapitated the Red Army in terms of its decapitated the Red Army in terms of its command structure. So before that, would command structure. So before that, would command structure. So before that, would it be fair to say it was one of, if not it be fair to say it was one of, if not it be fair to say it was one of, if not the greatest army in the world? Well, the greatest army in the world? Well, the greatest army in the world? Well, there was a lot of experience. There's a there was a lot of experience. There's a there was a lot of experience. There's a lot of experience there that but also lot of experience there that but also lot of experience there that but also technology material. Yeah. The size of technology material. Yeah. The size of technology material. Yeah. The size of the army, the number of people that the army, the number of people that the army, the number of people that they're mobilized. Yeah. And they're the they're mobilized. Yeah. And they're the they're mobilized. Yeah. And they're the first people to kind of adapt, you know,

first people to kind of adapt, you know, first people to kind of adapt, you know, create airborne troops, for example. So create airborne troops, for example. So create airborne troops, for example. So yes, I think there is an argument to say yes, I think there is an argument to say yes, I think there is an argument to say that. But the decapitation is is is that. But the decapitation is is is that. But the decapitation is is is absolutely brutal. If you've decapitated absolutely brutal. If you've decapitated absolutely brutal. If you've decapitated an army, you've then got to put new guys an army, you've then got to put new guys an army, you've then got to put new guys in charge. And someone who who looks on in charge. And someone who who looks on in charge. And someone who who looks on paper like a a halfdecent peace time paper like a a halfdecent peace time paper like a a halfdecent peace time commander might not be a very good commander might not be a very good commander might not be a very good wartime commander. They're different wartime commander. They're different wartime commander. They're different disciplines and different skills. And disciplines and different skills. And disciplines and different skills. And what comes to you don't know that until what comes to you don't know that until what comes to you don't know that until you're tested. It's very hard to kind of you're tested. It's very hard to kind of you're tested. It's very hard to kind of judge. And of course, you know, Stalin judge. And of course, you know, Stalin judge. And of course, you know, Stalin is existing in a sort of, you know, a is existing in a sort of, you know, a is existing in a sort of, you know, a vacuum of of paranoia and suspicion all vacuum of of paranoia and suspicion all vacuum of of paranoia and suspicion all the time, which is unhelpful when you're the time, which is unhelpful when you're the time, which is unhelpful when you're trying to develop a strong armed forces. trying to develop a strong armed forces. trying to develop a strong armed forces. So they go into Finland in in back end So they go into Finland in in back end So they go into Finland in in back end of 1939 and they get there, you know, of 1939 and they get there, you know, of 1939 and they get there, you know, they get really badly hammered. They do they get really badly hammered. They do they get really badly hammered. They do take about, you know, they get the take about, you know, they get the take about, you know, they get the Corellia um peninsula and they do take Corellia um peninsula and they do take Corellia um peninsula and they do take some ground, but at huge cost. I mean, some ground, but at huge cost. I mean, some ground, but at huge cost. I mean, the casualties are five times as bad as the casualties are five times as bad as the casualties are five times as bad as those of the Fins and it's a those of the Fins and it's a those of the Fins and it's a humiliation. So Hitler sees that and humiliation. So Hitler sees that and humiliation. So Hitler sees that and thinks, okay, we're not up to much cop.

thinks, okay, we're not up to much cop. thinks, okay, we're not up to much cop. Then Hitler loses the battle of Britain Then Hitler loses the battle of Britain Then Hitler loses the battle of Britain and he thinks I can't afford to fight a and he thinks I can't afford to fight a and he thinks I can't afford to fight a war on two fronts. That's one of the war on two fronts. That's one of the war on two fronts. That's one of the reasons why Germany loses the war in reasons why Germany loses the war in reasons why Germany loses the war in 1914 to 18 is fighting on the eastern 1914 to 18 is fighting on the eastern 1914 to 18 is fighting on the eastern front but also fighting on, you know, front but also fighting on, you know, front but also fighting on, you know, the western front at the same time. the western front at the same time. the western front at the same time. We've got to avoid that. But I've got to We've got to avoid that. But I've got to We've got to avoid that. But I've got to get rid of Britain. And Britain hasn't get rid of Britain. And Britain hasn't get rid of Britain. And Britain hasn't come out of the fight. Britain is still come out of the fight. Britain is still come out of the fight. Britain is still fighting in the back end of 1940 having fighting in the back end of 1940 having fighting in the back end of 1940 having won the Battle of Britain. And so maybe won the Battle of Britain. And so maybe won the Battle of Britain. And so maybe I'll go into the Soviet Union now while I'll go into the Soviet Union now while I'll go into the Soviet Union now while the Red Army is still weak. You know, the Red Army is still weak. You know, the Red Army is still weak. You know, we're not 100% ready ourselves, but but we're not 100% ready ourselves, but but we're not 100% ready ourselves, but but let's hurry the whole thing forward let's hurry the whole thing forward let's hurry the whole thing forward because originally he'd been thinking of because originally he'd been thinking of because originally he'd been thinking of planning an operation in 1943 or 1944. planning an operation in 1943 or 1944. planning an operation in 1943 or 1944. So the idea is you take Poland out, you So the idea is you take Poland out, you So the idea is you take Poland out, you take out France and the low countries, take out France and the low countries, take out France and the low countries, you conquer most of Western Europe, you you conquer most of Western Europe, you you conquer most of Western Europe, you you knock out Britain. So therefore, you you knock out Britain. So therefore, you you knock out Britain. So therefore, you don't have to worry so much about the don't have to worry so much about the don't have to worry so much about the United States because they're over the United States because they're over the United States because they're over the other side of the Atlantic. That then other side of the Atlantic. That then other side of the Atlantic. That then gives it buys him the time to kind of gives it buys him the time to kind of gives it buys him the time to kind of rebuild up his strength for the allout rebuild up his strength for the allout rebuild up his strength for the allout thrust on the Soviet Union. The failure thrust on the Soviet Union. The failure thrust on the Soviet Union. The failure to subdue Britain in 1940 changes all to subdue Britain in 1940 changes all to subdue Britain in 1940 changes all those plans and makes him think actually those plans and makes him think actually those plans and makes him think actually I'm going to go in early. And he's also I'm going to go in early. And he's also I'm going to go in early. And he's also been kind of, you know, he's hoisted by been kind of, you know, he's hoisted by been kind of, you know, he's hoisted by Zopetard because he he starts to believe Zopetard because he he starts to believe Zopetard because he he starts to believe his own his own his own genius. You know, he everyone told him genius. You know, he everyone told him genius. You know, he everyone told him that, you know, he wouldn't be able to, that, you know, he wouldn't be able to, that, you know, he wouldn't be able to, you know, he wouldn't be able to beat you know, he wouldn't be able to beat you know, he wouldn't be able to beat France and the low countries. Everyone France and the low countries. Everyone France and the low countries. Everyone told him that, you know, it wouldn't told him that, you know, it wouldn't told him that, you know, it wouldn't work out when he went into Poland.

work out when he went into Poland. work out when he went into Poland. Everyone was really nervous about it. Everyone was really nervous about it. Everyone was really nervous about it. You know, well, go hang you, you You know, well, go hang you, you You know, well, go hang you, you cautious, awful aristocratic Prussian cautious, awful aristocratic Prussian cautious, awful aristocratic Prussian generals. You know, I'm I'm the best at generals. You know, I'm I'm the best at generals. You know, I'm I'm the best at this. I've told you. I've shown you. I'm this. I've told you. I've shown you. I'm this. I've told you. I've shown you. I'm the genius. Um, I can do it. He starts the genius. Um, I can do it. He starts the genius. Um, I can do it. He starts to believe his own hype. And of course, to believe his own hype. And of course, to believe his own hype. And of course, this is a problem. you know, he's this is a problem. you know, he's this is a problem. you know, he's surrounded by sick of fans and people surrounded by sick of fans and people surrounded by sick of fans and people who constantly telling him this he's who constantly telling him this he's who constantly telling him this he's this incredible genius. So, he starts to this incredible genius. So, he starts to this incredible genius. So, he starts to believe it and he thinks everything is believe it and he thinks everything is believe it and he thinks everything is possible and and he's very much into possible and and he's very much into possible and and he's very much into this idea of of the will of the German this idea of of the will of the German this idea of of the will of the German people. You know, this is our destiny people. You know, this is our destiny people. You know, this is our destiny and either will, as I say earlier on, and either will, as I say earlier on, and either will, as I say earlier on, you know, it's the thousand-y year Reich you know, it's the thousand-y year Reich you know, it's the thousand-y year Reich of Armageddon, but momentum is with us of Armageddon, but momentum is with us of Armageddon, but momentum is with us and we need to strike it and only by by and we need to strike it and only by by and we need to strike it and only by by gambling, only by being bold will will gambling, only by being bold will will gambling, only by being bold will will the Germans prevail and all this kind of the Germans prevail and all this kind of the Germans prevail and all this kind of nonsense. And so that's why he goes into nonsense. And so that's why he goes into nonsense. And so that's why he goes into into Soviet Union in June 1941 rather into Soviet Union in June 1941 rather into Soviet Union in June 1941 rather than you know a couple of or even three than you know a couple of or even three than you know a couple of or even three years later. Yeah. He really hated the years later. Yeah. He really hated the years later. Yeah. He really hated the Prussian generals. Huh. Yeah. He hated Prussian generals. Huh. Yeah. He hated Prussian generals. Huh. Yeah. He hated them. Is there a case to be made that them. Is there a case to be made that them. Is there a case to be made that there he was indeed at times a military there he was indeed at times a military there he was indeed at times a military genius? genius? genius? No, I don't think so. Cuz none of the No, I don't think so. Cuz none of the No, I don't think so. Cuz none of the plan I mean even the plan for the plan I mean even the plan for the plan I mean even the plan for the invasion of France and the low countries invasion of France and the low countries invasion of France and the low countries isn't his. It's a the the concept is is isn't his. It's a the the concept is is isn't his. It's a the the concept is is von Mannstein's and the execution is von Mannstein's and the execution is von Mannstein's and the execution is Gerian Hines Gadderian. So heiscoded is Gerian Hines Gadderian. So heiscoded is Gerian Hines Gadderian. So heiscoded is is a kind of he's the pioneer of of of is a kind of he's the pioneer of of of is a kind of he's the pioneer of of of the panza force the panzer thrust this the panza force the panzer thrust this the panza force the panzer thrust this idea of the ultra mechanized combined idea of the ultra mechanized combined idea of the ultra mechanized combined arms panzer arm spearhead doing this arms panzer arm spearhead doing this arms panzer arm spearhead doing this kind of lightning fast thrust um it's kind of lightning fast thrust um it's kind of lightning fast thrust um it's not Hiller's idea he adopts it and and not Hiller's idea he adopts it and and not Hiller's idea he adopts it and and takes it as his own because you know

takes it as his own because you know takes it as his own because you know he's a fury he can do what he likes um he's a fury he can do what he likes um he's a fury he can do what he likes um but but it isn't his so it's not you but but it isn't his so it's not you but but it isn't his so it's not you know and up until that point until that know and up until that point until that know and up until that point until that comes into comes into comes into being till that that plan is put forward being till that that plan is put forward being till that that plan is put forward to France Halder who is the chief of to France Halder who is the chief of to France Halder who is the chief of staff of the German army at that time staff of the German army at that time staff of the German army at that time you know how is just thinking how do we you know how is just thinking how do we you know how is just thinking how do we get out of this mess this is just a get out of this mess this is just a get out of this mess this is just a nightmare because they know that France nightmare because they know that France nightmare because they know that France has got a larger army they know that has got a larger army they know that has got a larger army they know that France has got more tanks and know that France has got more tanks and know that France has got more tanks and know that France has got double the number of France has got double the number of France has got double the number of artillery pieces it's got par in terms artillery pieces it's got par in terms artillery pieces it's got par in terms of air forces then you add Holland then of air forces then you add Holland then of air forces then you add Holland then you add Belgium then you add Great you add Belgium then you add Great you add Belgium then you add Great Britain and that looks like a very very Britain and that looks like a very very Britain and that looks like a very very tough nut to crack I mean the reason why tough nut to crack I mean the reason why tough nut to crack I mean the reason why France is subdued in 1940 is France is subdued in 1940 is France is subdued in 1940 is 50% brilliance of the Germans and their 50% brilliance of the Germans and their 50% brilliance of the Germans and their operational art in that particular operational art in that particular operational art in that particular instance and 50% French failure really instance and 50% French failure really instance and 50% French failure really and incompetence. I mean there is a kind and incompetence. I mean there is a kind and incompetence. I mean there is a kind of genius to be able to see and take of genius to be able to see and take of genius to be able to see and take advantage and set up the world stage in advantage and set up the world stage in advantage and set up the world stage in such a way that you have the appeasement such a way that you have the appeasement such a way that you have the appeasement from France and from France and from France and Britain. Keep the United States out of Britain. Keep the United States out of Britain. Keep the United States out of it. just set up the world stage where it. just set up the world stage where it. just set up the world stage where you could just plow through everybody you could just plow through everybody you could just plow through everybody with no with very little resistance. I with no with very little resistance. I with no with very little resistance. I mean there is a kind of well yes if mean there is a kind of well yes if mean there is a kind of well yes if geopolitical genius if it works but it geopolitical genius if it works but it geopolitical genius if it works but it doesn't you know that's that's a doesn't you know that's that's a doesn't you know that's that's a problem. I mean you know I mean he goes problem. I mean you know I mean he goes problem. I mean you know I mean he goes into Poland on the assumption that into Poland on the assumption that into Poland on the assumption that Britain and France will not declare war.

Britain and France will not declare war. Britain and France will not declare war. You know he he You know he he You know he he he is not prepared for Britain and he is not prepared for Britain and he is not prepared for Britain and France declaring war on Germany. Right. France declaring war on Germany. Right. France declaring war on Germany. Right. He thinks they won't. That's right. So He thinks they won't. That's right. So He thinks they won't. That's right. So miscalculation blunder. But then France miscalculation blunder. But then France miscalculation blunder. But then France does, right? And does, right? And does, right? And then that doesn't, you know, France does then that doesn't, you know, France does then that doesn't, you know, France does not successfully do anything with this not successfully do anything with this not successfully do anything with this incredible army that it has. It has a incredible army that it has. It has a incredible army that it has. It has a size, but one of the problems that size, but one of the problems that size, but one of the problems that France has is that it's very very France has is that it's very very France has is that it's very very topheavy. It's it's very cumbersome in topheavy. It's it's very cumbersome in topheavy. It's it's very cumbersome in the way it operates. Um there's no the way it operates. Um there's no the way it operates. Um there's no question that that it's got some question that that it's got some question that that it's got some brilliant young commanders, but but at brilliant young commanders, but but at brilliant young commanders, but but at the lot the top the commanders are very the lot the top the commanders are very the lot the top the commanders are very old. Most of them are first world war old. Most of them are first world war old. Most of them are first world war veterans, you know, whether you I mean veterans, you know, whether you I mean veterans, you know, whether you I mean Vegan Gamlan, General George. Um these Vegan Gamlan, General George. Um these Vegan Gamlan, General George. Um these people, they're all well into their 60s. people, they're all well into their 60s. people, they're all well into their 60s. Um General George is the youngest army Um General George is the youngest army Um General George is the youngest army commander and he's 60. You know, it's commander and he's 60. You know, it's commander and he's 60. You know, it's too old to be an army commander. You too old to be an army commander. You too old to be an army commander. You need to be in your kind of late 40s, need to be in your kind of late 40s, need to be in your kind of late 40s, early 50s. And they're too just consumed early 50s. And they're too just consumed early 50s. And they're too just consumed by conservatism and the old ways. And by conservatism and the old ways. And by conservatism and the old ways. And what what they assume is that any future what what they assume is that any future what what they assume is that any future war will be much like the first world war will be much like the first world war will be much like the first world war. It'll war. It'll war. It'll be attritional, long and drawn out, but be attritional, long and drawn out, but be attritional, long and drawn out, but static. But actually, they're right on static. But actually, they're right on static. But actually, they're right on two parts of it. It is, as it turns out, two parts of it. It is, as it turns out, two parts of it. It is, as it turns out, it is going to be long and drawn out and it is going to be long and drawn out and it is going to be long and drawn out and attritional, but it's going to be mobile attritional, but it's going to be mobile attritional, but it's going to be mobile rather than static. And that's a big rather than static. And that's a big rather than static. And that's a big miscalculation. So, here's here's my miscalculation. So, here's here's my miscalculation. So, here's here's my question. I think you're you're being question. I think you're you're being question. I think you're you're being too nice on France here. So when when too nice on France here. So when when too nice on France here. So when when when Germany invaded Poland,

when Germany invaded Poland, when Germany invaded Poland, it correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels it correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels it correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like France could have just went like France could have just went like France could have just went straight to Berlin. Yeah, they straight to Berlin. Yeah, they straight to Berlin. Yeah, they absolutely could have and they and I absolutely could have and they and I absolutely could have and they and I know you said it's very topheavy and know you said it's very topheavy and know you said it's very topheavy and you're saying all of these things, but you're saying all of these things, but you're saying all of these things, but they literally did basically nothing. they literally did basically nothing. they literally did basically nothing. Yeah, they were pulling. So like that uh Yeah, they were pulling. So like that uh Yeah, they were pulling. So like that uh and I think a part of that and I think and I think a part of that and I think and I think a part of that and I think you described as well maybe you can you described as well maybe you can you described as well maybe you can speak to that is the insanity that is speak to that is the insanity that is speak to that is the insanity that is Hitler creating this psycholog with the Hitler creating this psycholog with the Hitler creating this psycholog with the propaganda creating this feeling that propaganda creating this feeling that propaganda creating this feeling that there's this Nazi force that's there's this Nazi force that's there's this Nazi force that's unstoppable. So they're they're France unstoppable. So they're they're France unstoppable. So they're they're France just didn't want to like step into that. just didn't want to like step into that. just didn't want to like step into that. Maybe they were like legitimately I I I Maybe they were like legitimately I I I Maybe they were like legitimately I I I hesitate to say these words, but scared hesitate to say these words, but scared hesitate to say these words, but scared of war. 100% they are. That, you know, of war. 100% they are. That, you know, of war. 100% they are. That, you know, because France has been totally because France has been totally because France has been totally traumatized by the First World War. It's traumatized by the First World War. It's traumatized by the First World War. It's fought on their land. It's fought in fought on their land. It's fought in fought on their land. It's fought in their industrial heartland. You know, their industrial heartland. You know, their industrial heartland. You know, they lose three times the amount of they lose three times the amount of they lose three times the amount of people killed that that Britain does. people killed that that Britain does. people killed that that Britain does. Britain's traumatized by it, but but but Britain's traumatized by it, but but but Britain's traumatized by it, but but but not to the same degree that France is.

not to the same degree that France is. not to the same degree that France is. France, you know, there is just no France, you know, there is just no France, you know, there is just no stomach to do that again. And so that stomach to do that again. And so that stomach to do that again. And so that makes them risk averse. And by being makes them risk averse. And by being makes them risk averse. And by being riskaverse, you're actually taking a far riskaverse, you're actually taking a far riskaverse, you're actually taking a far greater risk. That that that that's the greater risk. That that that that's the greater risk. That that that that's the irony of it. And the truth is also there irony of it. And the truth is also there irony of it. And the truth is also there isn't the political will. And a a isn't the political will. And a a isn't the political will. And a a successful military can only be successful military can only be successful military can only be successful if there is a political will successful if there is a political will successful if there is a political will at the top. And the problem with France at the top. And the problem with France at the top. And the problem with France in the 1930s is it's very politically in the 1930s is it's very politically in the 1930s is it's very politically divided. It's uh it's it's a time of divided. It's uh it's it's a time of divided. It's uh it's it's a time of multiple governments, multiple prime multiple governments, multiple prime multiple governments, multiple prime ministers, um uh ministers, um uh ministers, um uh coalition coalition coalition governments really extreme coalition governments really extreme coalition governments really extreme coalition governments from the sort of drawn from governments from the sort of drawn from governments from the sort of drawn from the left and the right as well as the the left and the right as well as the the left and the right as well as the center and you know this is not a center and you know this is not a center and you know this is not a coalition of of two parties. This is a coalition of of two parties. This is a coalition of of two parties. This is a coalition of multiple parties and no one coalition of multiple parties and no one coalition of multiple parties and no one can ever agree anything. I mean that's can ever agree anything. I mean that's can ever agree anything. I mean that's the problem. It's amazing that the MNO the problem. It's amazing that the MNO the problem. It's amazing that the MNO line is even agreed you know this line is even agreed you know this line is even agreed you know this incredibly strong defensive position incredibly strong defensive position incredibly strong defensive position down the western side of France of down the western side of France of down the western side of France of border with um with Germany which is border with um with Germany which is border with um with Germany which is kind of largely impregnable but the kind of largely impregnable but the kind of largely impregnable but the problem is the bit that's not problem is the bit that's not problem is the bit that's not impregnable which is the hinge where the impregnable which is the hinge where the impregnable which is the hinge where the Mno line ends and it sort of basically Mno line ends and it sort of basically Mno line ends and it sort of basically starts turning kind of towards in a kind starts turning kind of towards in a kind starts turning kind of towards in a kind of north noy direction and the border of north noy direction and the border of north noy direction and the border with Belgium with Belgium with Belgium and you know what they should have done and you know what they should have done and you know what they should have done is built kind of border defenses all is built kind of border defenses all is built kind of border defenses all along the northern coast with Belgium along the northern coast with Belgium along the northern coast with Belgium cuz Belgium refused used to kind of uh cuz Belgium refused used to kind of uh cuz Belgium refused used to kind of uh allow any Allied troops into into his allow any Allied troops into into his allow any Allied troops into into his territory. It was neutral. And France territory. It was neutral. And France territory. It was neutral. And France should have said, "Okay, fine. Well, should have said, "Okay, fine. Well, should have said, "Okay, fine. Well, then we'll defend our, you know, we're then we'll defend our, you know, we're then we'll defend our, you know, we're not going to come to your rescue if you not going to come to your rescue if you not going to come to your rescue if you get invaded. That's your that's your get invaded. That's your that's your get invaded. That's your that's your what that that's that's the payoff." And

what that that's that's the payoff." And what that that's that's the payoff." And and a consequence of that, we are going and a consequence of that, we are going and a consequence of that, we are going to stockpile everything that we're not to stockpile everything that we're not to stockpile everything that we're not going to be drawn into the neutral going to be drawn into the neutral going to be drawn into the neutral territory should Germany invade from the territory should Germany invade from the territory should Germany invade from the West. But they don't do that because of West. But they don't do that because of West. But they don't do that because of the psychological damage of having the psychological damage of having the psychological damage of having fought a war in exactly that area a fought a war in exactly that area a fought a war in exactly that area a generation earlier. And and that's the generation earlier. And and that's the generation earlier. And and that's the problem. So when the you know there is problem. So when the you know there is problem. So when the you know there is Germany is so weakened by the invasion Germany is so weakened by the invasion Germany is so weakened by the invasion of Poland there is literally nothing of Poland there is literally nothing of Poland there is literally nothing left. You know the back door from into left. You know the back door from into left. You know the back door from into western Germany is completely open. And western Germany is completely open. And western Germany is completely open. And so they do what they call the SAR so they do what they call the SAR so they do what they call the SAR offensive but it's not. It's a kind of offensive but it's not. It's a kind of offensive but it's not. It's a kind of reconnaissance in force where they kind reconnaissance in force where they kind reconnaissance in force where they kind of go across the border, kind of pick of go across the border, kind of pick of go across the border, kind of pick their noses for for a few days and then their noses for for a few days and then their noses for for a few days and then kind of trundle back again. And it's kind of trundle back again. And it's kind of trundle back again. And it's just it's embarrassing. And and that is just it's embarrassing. And and that is just it's embarrassing. And and that is what you're seeing there is is a nation what you're seeing there is is a nation what you're seeing there is is a nation which is just not ready for this, which which is just not ready for this, which which is just not ready for this, which is scared, which is politically divided, is scared, which is politically divided, is scared, which is politically divided, which is then having a knock-on effect which is then having a knock-on effect which is then having a knock-on effect on on the decision-m process, and which on on the decision-m process, and which on on the decision-m process, and which is just consumed by military is just consumed by military is just consumed by military complacency. And that's the big problem.

complacency. And that's the big problem. complacency. And that's the big problem. There is this, you know, the the There is this, you know, the the There is this, you know, the the commanders at the very top of the French commanders at the very top of the French commanders at the very top of the French regime are are complacent. They they regime are are complacent. They they regime are are complacent. They they they haven't bought into kind of modern they haven't bought into kind of modern they haven't bought into kind of modern ways. They haven't looked at how ways. They haven't looked at how ways. They haven't looked at how contemporary technology could help them. contemporary technology could help them. contemporary technology could help them. I mean it is absurd for example that I mean it is absurd for example that I mean it is absurd for example that there isn't a single radio in the chat there isn't a single radio in the chat there isn't a single radio in the chat Devalsen which is you know the Devalsen which is you know the Devalsen which is you know the headquarters of the commander-in-chief headquarters of the commander-in-chief headquarters of the commander-in-chief of the French armed forces which is of the French armed forces which is of the French armed forces which is General Marshall Morris Gamalan I mean General Marshall Morris Gamalan I mean General Marshall Morris Gamalan I mean it's just it's just it's just unbelievable but but that is the case unbelievable but but that is the case unbelievable but but that is the case and and there's no getting away from and and there's no getting away from and and there's no getting away from that and and it is all the more ironic that and and it is all the more ironic that and and it is all the more ironic when you consider that France is when you consider that France is when you consider that France is actually the most automotive society in actually the most automotive society in actually the most automotive society in Europe it's the second most automotive Europe it's the second most automotive Europe it's the second most automotive society in the world after the United society in the world after the United society in the world after the United States by some margin it has to be said States by some margin it has to be said States by some margin it has to be said as well you know has a fantastic as well you know has a fantastic as well you know has a fantastic transportation system railway network is transportation system railway network is transportation system railway network is superb it's it it there are there are superb it's it it there are there are superb it's it it there are there are eight people for every motorized vehicle eight people for every motorized vehicle eight people for every motorized vehicle in France which is way above Germany in France which is way above Germany in France which is way above Germany which is in 1949 that figure is 47 for which is in 1949 that figure is 47 for which is in 1949 that figure is 47 for example it's 106 in Italy so France is example it's 106 in Italy so France is example it's 106 in Italy so France is very mechanized like very mechanized so very mechanized like very mechanized so very mechanized like very mechanized so come on guys put your finger out get it come on guys put your finger out get it come on guys put your finger out get it together and they just don't they're together and they just don't they're together and they just don't they're they're incredibly slow and cumbersome they're incredibly slow and cumbersome they're incredibly slow and cumbersome and what they think is when what will and what they think is when what will and what they think is when what will happen is the Germans won't think of happen is the Germans won't think of happen is the Germans won't think of going, you know, they won't do a pinser going, you know, they won't do a pinser going, you know, they won't do a pinser movement because you can't possibly take movement because you can't possibly take movement because you can't possibly take motorized forces through through the motorized forces through through the motorized forces through through the Arden. That just is not possible, which Arden. That just is not possible, which Arden. That just is not possible, which is the hinge area between the end of the is the hinge area between the end of the is the hinge area between the end of the Majinow, the northern part of the Majino Majinow, the northern part of the Majino Majinow, the northern part of the Majino line, which runs down the western, line, which runs down the western, line, which runs down the western, sorry, the eastern border of of France sorry, the eastern border of of France sorry, the eastern border of of France and and the northern bit. And so what

and and the northern bit. And so what and and the northern bit. And so what we'll do with that hinge around the town we'll do with that hinge around the town we'll do with that hinge around the town of Sedan, we'll we'll move into into of Sedan, we'll we'll move into into of Sedan, we'll we'll move into into Belgium. We'll meet the Germans before Belgium. We'll meet the Germans before Belgium. We'll meet the Germans before they get anywhere near France. we'll they get anywhere near France. we'll they get anywhere near France. we'll hold them and while we're holding them, hold them and while we're holding them, hold them and while we're holding them, we will bring up our reserves and then we will bring up our reserves and then we will bring up our reserves and then we'll we'll counterattack and crush we'll we'll counterattack and crush we'll we'll counterattack and crush them. That that's the idea behind it. them. That that's the idea behind it. them. That that's the idea behind it. But the problem is is they don't have a But the problem is is they don't have a But the problem is is they don't have a means of moving fast and their means of moving fast and their means of moving fast and their communication systems are dreadful. communication systems are dreadful. communication systems are dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. They're dependent Absolutely dreadful. They're dependent Absolutely dreadful. They're dependent on conventional telephone lines which on conventional telephone lines which on conventional telephone lines which you you you know dive bombers and whatever are just know dive bombers and whatever are just know dive bombers and whatever are just kind of absolutely wrecking. Suddenly kind of absolutely wrecking. Suddenly kind of absolutely wrecking. Suddenly the streets are clogged with refugees the streets are clogged with refugees the streets are clogged with refugees and people can't move. So they're then and people can't move. So they're then and people can't move. So they're then you know telephone lines are down. you know telephone lines are down. you know telephone lines are down. There's no radios. So, you're then There's no radios. So, you're then There's no radios. So, you're then dependent on sending dispatch riders on dependent on sending dispatch riders on dependent on sending dispatch riders on little motorbikes. You know, General uh little motorbikes. You know, General uh little motorbikes. You know, General uh Morris Gamalan sends out a a dispatch Morris Gamalan sends out a a dispatch Morris Gamalan sends out a a dispatch rider at 6:00 in the morning. Um by rider at 6:00 in the morning. Um by rider at 6:00 in the morning. Um by 12:00 he hasn't come back. So, you then 12:00 he hasn't come back. So, you then 12:00 he hasn't come back. So, you then send another one. Finally, the answer send another one. Finally, the answer send another one. Finally, the answer comes back kind of 9:00 at night, by comes back kind of 9:00 at night, by comes back kind of 9:00 at night, by which time the kind of Germans advance which time the kind of Germans advance which time the kind of Germans advance another 15 miles and the original another 15 miles and the original another 15 miles and the original message that you sent at 6:00 that message that you sent at 6:00 that message that you sent at 6:00 that morning is completely redundant and has morning is completely redundant and has morning is completely redundant and has passed it sell by date. And that's passed it sell by date. And that's passed it sell by date. And that's happening at every step of the way, you happening at every step of the way, you happening at every step of the way, you know. So you've got you've got overall know. So you've got you've got overall know. So you've got you've got overall commander um headquarters, then you've commander um headquarters, then you've commander um headquarters, then you've got army group, then you've got army, got army group, then you've got army, got army group, then you've got army, then you've got core, then you've got then you've got core, then you've got then you've got core, then you've got division. So the consequence of all that division. So the consequence of all that division. So the consequence of all that is that French just can't move. They're is that French just can't move. They're is that French just can't move. They're just stuck. They're they're rabbits in just stuck. They're they're rabbits in just stuck. They're they're rabbits in headlights and the Germans are able to headlights and the Germans are able to headlights and the Germans are able to kind of move them uh destroy them in kind of move them uh destroy them in kind of move them uh destroy them in isolation. Meanwhile, they're able to isolation. Meanwhile, they're able to isolation. Meanwhile, they're able to use their excellent communications use their excellent communications use their excellent communications um to very very good effect. And you um to very very good effect. And you um to very very good effect. And you were talking about the genius of of war.

were talking about the genius of of war. were talking about the genius of of war. It's not Hitler that's a genius. If It's not Hitler that's a genius. If It's not Hitler that's a genius. If anyone's a genius, it's Gerbles, the anyone's a genius, it's Gerbles, the anyone's a genius, it's Gerbles, the propaganda chief. And it is their propaganda chief. And it is their propaganda chief. And it is their ability to ability to ability to harness that they are the kings of harness that they are the kings of harness that they are the kings of messaging. You know, they don't have messaging. You know, they don't have messaging. You know, they don't have they don't have X, they don't have they don't have X, they don't have they don't have X, they don't have social media. Um, but they do have new social media. Um, but they do have new social media. Um, but they do have new technology. And that new technology, technology. And that new technology, technology. And that new technology, that new approach is flooding the that new approach is flooding the that new approach is flooding the airwaves with their singular message, airwaves with their singular message, airwaves with their singular message, which is always the same and has been which is always the same and has been which is always the same and has been ever since the Nazis come into power. ever since the Nazis come into power. ever since the Nazis come into power. And it is using radios. And I think And it is using radios. And I think And it is using radios. And I think radios are really really key to the radios are really really key to the radios are really really key to the whole story because there is no denser whole story because there is no denser whole story because there is no denser radio network anywhere in the world radio network anywhere in the world radio network anywhere in the world including the United States than Germany including the United States than Germany including the United States than Germany in 1939. So while it's really behind the in 1939. So while it's really behind the in 1939. So while it's really behind the times in terms of mechanization, it is times in terms of mechanization, it is times in terms of mechanization, it is absolutely on top of its game in terms absolutely on top of its game in terms absolutely on top of its game in terms of coms. So 70% of households in Germany of coms. So 70% of households in Germany of coms. So 70% of households in Germany have radios by 1939 which is an have radios by 1939 which is an have radios by 1939 which is an unprecedented number that that is only unprecedented number that that is only unprecedented number that that is only beaten by United States and only just. beaten by United States and only just. beaten by United States and only just. So it is it is greater than any other So it is it is greater than any other So it is it is greater than any other other nation in Europe. And in terms of other nation in Europe. And in terms of other nation in Europe. And in terms of flooding the airwaves, it is the densest flooding the airwaves, it is the densest flooding the airwaves, it is the densest because even for those who the 30% who because even for those who the 30% who because even for those who the 30% who don't have radios, that's not a problem don't have radios, that's not a problem don't have radios, that's not a problem because we'll put them in the stairwells because we'll put them in the stairwells because we'll put them in the stairwells of apartment blocks. We'll put them in of apartment blocks. We'll put them in of apartment blocks. We'll put them in squares. We'll put them in cafes and squares. We'll put them in cafes and squares. We'll put them in cafes and bars. And the same stuff the state the bars. And the same stuff the state the bars. And the same stuff the state the the the Nazi state controls the radio the the Nazi state controls the radio the the Nazi state controls the radio airwaves as it does the movies as it airwaves as it does the movies as it airwaves as it does the movies as it does newspapers. All aspects of the does newspapers. All aspects of the does newspapers. All aspects of the media are controlled by by Gerbles and media are controlled by by Gerbles and media are controlled by by Gerbles and the propaganda ministry and they are

the propaganda ministry and they are the propaganda ministry and they are putting out the same message over and putting out the same message over and putting out the same message over and over again. It's not it's not all over again. It's not it's not all over again. It's not it's not all Hitler's ranting. It's entertainment, Hitler's ranting. It's entertainment, Hitler's ranting. It's entertainment, light entertainment, some humorous light entertainment, some humorous light entertainment, some humorous shows. Um it is also Vagner of course shows. Um it is also Vagner of course shows. Um it is also Vagner of course and Richard Strauss. Um it it's it's a and Richard Strauss. Um it it's it's a and Richard Strauss. Um it it's it's a mixture but the subliminal message is mixture but the subliminal message is mixture but the subliminal message is the same. We're the best. We're the top the same. We're the best. We're the top the same. We're the best. We're the top dogs. Jewish Bolevik plot is awful. That dogs. Jewish Bolevik plot is awful. That dogs. Jewish Bolevik plot is awful. That needs to be, you know, that's the needs to be, you know, that's the needs to be, you know, that's the existential threat to us. We have to existential threat to us. We have to existential threat to us. We have to overcome that. We're the top dogs overcome that. We're the top dogs overcome that. We're the top dogs militarily. We're the best. We should militarily. We're the best. We should militarily. We're the best. We should feel really good about ourselves. We're feel really good about ourselves. We're feel really good about ourselves. We're going to absolutely win and be the going to absolutely win and be the going to absolutely win and be the greatest nation in the world ever. And greatest nation in the world ever. And greatest nation in the world ever. And Hitler's a genius. And and that is just Hitler's a genius. And and that is just Hitler's a genius. And and that is just repeated over and over and over and over repeated over and over and over and over repeated over and over and over and over again. And the, you know, for all the again. And the, you know, for all the again. And the, you know, for all the modernity of the world in which we live modernity of the world in which we live modernity of the world in which we live in today, most people believe what in today, most people believe what in today, most people believe what they're told repeatedly. Yeah. They they're told repeatedly. Yeah. They they're told repeatedly. Yeah. They still do. If you just repeat repeat still do. If you just repeat repeat still do. If you just repeat repeat repeat over and over again, people will repeat over and over again, people will repeat over and over again, people will believe it. You know, if you're a if believe it. You know, if you're a if believe it. You know, if you're a if you're a diehard Trump supporter, you you're a diehard Trump supporter, you you're a diehard Trump supporter, you you want to believe that and you'll you want to believe that and you'll you want to believe that and you'll believe everything he says. If you are a believe everything he says. If you are a believe everything he says. If you are a diehard Bernie Sanders man, you know, diehard Bernie Sanders man, you know, diehard Bernie Sanders man, you know, you're from the left, you'll believe you're from the left, you'll believe you're from the left, you'll believe everything he says because it's everything he says because it's everything he says because it's reinforcing what you already want to reinforcing what you already want to reinforcing what you already want to what what you already want to believe.

what what you already want to believe. what what you already want to believe. But the scary thing is uh you know radio But the scary thing is uh you know radio But the scary thing is uh you know radio is the technology of the day. The is the technology of the day. The is the technology of the day. The technology of the day today which is a technology of the day today which is a technology of the day today which is a terrifying one for me is uh um I would terrifying one for me is uh um I would terrifying one for me is uh um I would say AI on social media. So bots you can say AI on social media. So bots you can say AI on social media. So bots you can have basically bot farms which I assume have basically bot farms which I assume have basically bot farms which I assume is used by Ukraine, by Russia, by US I I is used by Ukraine, by Russia, by US I I is used by Ukraine, by Russia, by US I I would love to read the history written would love to read the history written would love to read the history written about this era about the information about this era about the information about this era about the information wars. Who has the biggest bot farms? Who wars. Who has the biggest bot farms? Who wars. Who has the biggest bot farms? Who has the biggest propaganda machines? And has the biggest propaganda machines? And has the biggest propaganda machines? And when I say bot, I mean both automated AI when I say bot, I mean both automated AI when I say bot, I mean both automated AI bots and humans operating large number bots and humans operating large number bots and humans operating large number of smartphones with SIM cards that are of smartphones with SIM cards that are of smartphones with SIM cards that are just able to boost messages enough to just able to boost messages enough to just able to boost messages enough to where they become viral and then real where they become viral and then real where they become viral and then real humans with real opinions get excited. humans with real opinions get excited. humans with real opinions get excited. Also, it's like this vicious cycle. So Also, it's like this vicious cycle. So Also, it's like this vicious cycle. So if you support your nation, all you need if you support your nation, all you need if you support your nation, all you need is a little boost and then everybody is a little boost and then everybody is a little boost and then everybody gets real excited and then now you're gets real excited and then now you're gets real excited and then now you're chanting and now you're in this mass chanting and now you're in this mass chanting and now you're in this mass hysteria and now it's the 1984 2 minutes hysteria and now it's the 1984 2 minutes hysteria and now it's the 1984 2 minutes of hate and the message is clear. I mean of hate and the message is clear. I mean of hate and the message is clear. I mean that's what propaganda does is it really that's what propaganda does is it really that's what propaganda does is it really clarifies the mind and that is exactly clarifies the mind and that is exactly clarifies the mind and that is exactly what what Hitler and the Nazis and what what Hitler and the Nazis and what what Hitler and the Nazis and Gerbles are doing in the 1930s. Well, Gerbles are doing in the 1930s. Well, Gerbles are doing in the 1930s. Well, they're doing in the 1920s as well, but they're doing in the 1920s as well, but they're doing in the 1920s as well, but more effectively once they come into more effectively once they come into more effectively once they come into power, of course.

power, of course. power, of course. And Hitler is so fortunate that he comes And Hitler is so fortunate that he comes And Hitler is so fortunate that he comes he takes over the chancellorship in he takes over the chancellorship in he takes over the chancellorship in January 1943 at a time where the economy January 1943 at a time where the economy January 1943 at a time where the economy is just starting to turn and he's able is just starting to turn and he's able is just starting to turn and he's able to make the most of that. And you know to make the most of that. And you know to make the most of that. And you know if you're Germans and you've been if you're Germans and you've been if you're Germans and you've been through hyperinflation in the early through hyperinflation in the early through hyperinflation in the early 1920s, you've been through the 1920s, you've been through the 1920s, you've been through the humiliation of Versail treaty which was humiliation of Versail treaty which was humiliation of Versail treaty which was terrible error in in terrible error in in terrible error in in retrospect and you've been through then retrospect and you've been through then retrospect and you've been through then having got through that you've emerged having got through that you've emerged having got through that you've emerged into a kind of democratic VHimar into a kind of democratic VHimar into a kind of democratic VHimar Republic which is based on manufacturing Republic which is based on manufacturing Republic which is based on manufacturing you know Germany's traditional genius at you know Germany's traditional genius at you know Germany's traditional genius at engineering and manufacturing and engineering and manufacturing and engineering and manufacturing and production of of high quality um items. production of of high quality um items. production of of high quality um items. they're merging through that. Then you they're merging through that. Then you they're merging through that. Then you have the Wall Street crash and the loans have the Wall Street crash and the loans have the Wall Street crash and the loans that are coming in from America, which that are coming in from America, which that are coming in from America, which is propping up the entire German is propping up the entire German is propping up the entire German economy, suddenly get cut off and you've economy, suddenly get cut off and you've economy, suddenly get cut off and you've suddenly got depression again and and suddenly got depression again and and suddenly got depression again and and massive massive massive unemployment. And suddenly Hitler comes unemployment. And suddenly Hitler comes unemployment. And suddenly Hitler comes in and everyone's got jobs and they're in and everyone's got jobs and they're in and everyone's got jobs and they're rebuilding and they're growing their rebuilding and they're growing their rebuilding and they're growing their military and the message that's coming military and the message that's coming military and the message that's coming out is we're the greatest, we're the out is we're the greatest, we're the out is we're the greatest, we're the best, we're fantastic. You know, I was best, we're fantastic. You know, I was best, we're fantastic. You know, I was telling you earlier on about about telling you earlier on about about telling you earlier on about about pillar speeches starting with the dark, pillar speeches starting with the dark, pillar speeches starting with the dark, starting dark and ending in in hope and starting dark and ending in in hope and starting dark and ending in in hope and light and the sunlit uplands. You know, light and the sunlit uplands. You know, light and the sunlit uplands. You know, that's what you're getting. You're that's what you're getting. You're that's what you're getting. You're suddenly getting this vision of hope.

suddenly getting this vision of hope. suddenly getting this vision of hope. This sort of, you know, by God, This sort of, you know, by God, This sort of, you know, by God, actually, this is really working. You actually, this is really working. You actually, this is really working. You know, okay, so, you know, I'm not sure know, okay, so, you know, I'm not sure know, okay, so, you know, I'm not sure that I particularly buy into the kind of that I particularly buy into the kind of that I particularly buy into the kind of anti-semitic thing, but, you know, we'll anti-semitic thing, but, you know, we'll anti-semitic thing, but, you know, we'll sweep that under the carpet because sweep that under the carpet because sweep that under the carpet because overall, I've now got a job, I've got overall, I've now got a job, I've got overall, I've now got a job, I've got money, I've got my new radio, you know, money, I've got my new radio, you know, money, I've got my new radio, you know, and then this is the genius about the and then this is the genius about the and then this is the genius about the radios, for example. So they have the uh radios, for example. So they have the uh radios, for example. So they have the uh they have the the German receiver to they have the the German receiver to they have the the German receiver to start off with the the Deutsche Fanger start off with the the Deutsche Fanger start off with the the Deutsche Fanger and then they have the the Deutsche and then they have the the Deutsche and then they have the the Deutsche Klein and Fanger which is the German Klein and Fanger which is the German Klein and Fanger which is the German little receiver little radio. These are little receiver little radio. These are little receiver little radio. These are genius. This is this is as outrageous as genius. This is this is as outrageous as genius. This is this is as outrageous as the arrival of the iPod. I mean remember the arrival of the iPod. I mean remember the arrival of the iPod. I mean remember that you know suddenly you don't have to that you know suddenly you don't have to that you know suddenly you don't have to have a Sony Walkman anymore. You can have a Sony Walkman anymore. You can have a Sony Walkman anymore. You can have something really really small and have something really really small and have something really really small and miniature and listen to thousands and miniature and listen to thousands and miniature and listen to thousands and thousands and thousands of songs all at thousands and thousands of songs all at thousands and thousands of songs all at once. What a what an amazing thing. And once. What a what an amazing thing. And once. What a what an amazing thing. And the Deutsche Klein Fanger is 9 in x 4 in the Deutsche Klein Fanger is 9 in x 4 in the Deutsche Klein Fanger is 9 in x 4 in x 4 in. It's made of bake light and x 4 in. It's made of bake light and x 4 in. It's made of bake light and everyone can have one cuz it's super everyone can have one cuz it's super everyone can have one cuz it's super cheap. It's just incredible. And no one cheap. It's just incredible. And no one cheap. It's just incredible. And no one else said that because up until that else said that because up until that else said that because up until that point, radios generally speaking are point, radios generally speaking are point, radios generally speaking are aspirational. You know, they've got sort aspirational. You know, they've got sort aspirational. You know, they've got sort of walnut lacquer at the front and you of walnut lacquer at the front and you of walnut lacquer at the front and you know, you have them if you're middle know, you have them if you're middle know, you have them if you're middle class and you show them off to your class and you show them off to your class and you show them off to your neighbors to show how kind of, you know, neighbors to show how kind of, you know, neighbors to show how kind of, you know, affluent and wellto-do you are. Um but affluent and wellto-do you are. Um but affluent and wellto-do you are. Um but suddenly everyone can have one and if suddenly everyone can have one and if suddenly everyone can have one and if everyone can have one then everyone can everyone can have one then everyone can everyone can have one then everyone can receive the same message and you can and receive the same message and you can and receive the same message and you can and you can also this is the whole point you can also this is the whole point you can also this is the whole point about the Hitler youth as well you know about the Hitler youth as well you know about the Hitler youth as well you know the young guys that's where they're the young guys that's where they're the young guys that's where they're they're most impressionistic they're they're most impressionistic they're they're most impressionistic they're they're least risk averse so they're they're least risk averse so they're they're least risk averse so they're most gung-ho they're they're most full most gung-ho they're they're most full most gung-ho they're they're most full of excitement for the possibilities of of excitement for the possibilities of of excitement for the possibilities of life and they're also their minds are life and they're also their minds are life and they're also their minds are the most open to suggestion so you get

the most open to suggestion so you get the most open to suggestion so you get the youth you hang on you get them and the youth you hang on you get them and the youth you hang on you get them and so a whole generation of young men are so a whole generation of young men are so a whole generation of young men are brought up thinking about the genius of brought up thinking about the genius of brought up thinking about the genius of Hitler and how he's delivering us this Hitler and how he's delivering us this Hitler and how he's delivering us this much better nation and returning our um much better nation and returning our um much better nation and returning our um over overhauling the humiliations of the over overhauling the humiliations of the over overhauling the humiliations of the first world war where overcoming the first world war where overcoming the first world war where overcoming the back the stab in the back that happened back the stab in the back that happened back the stab in the back that happened in 1918 etc etc and you know as a young in 1918 etc etc and you know as a young in 1918 etc etc and you know as a young 16year-old German you're thinking yeah I 16year-old German you're thinking yeah I 16year-old German you're thinking yeah I want a piece of that and and hey guess want a piece of that and and hey guess want a piece of that and and hey guess what they got really cool uniforms and what they got really cool uniforms and what they got really cool uniforms and and you know come and join the SS and and you know come and join the SS and and you know come and join the SS and you know get the throw line what's not you know get the throw line what's not you know get the throw line what's not to like you You know, you can see why to like you You know, you can see why to like you You know, you can see why why it it's so clever. And what's so why it it's so clever. And what's so why it it's so clever. And what's so interesting is propaganda today is is interesting is propaganda today is is interesting is propaganda today is is still using those those tenets that still using those those tenets that still using those those tenets that Gerbles was using back in the 1930s. And Gerbles was using back in the 1930s. And Gerbles was using back in the 1930s. And this is why I was say say that, you this is why I was say say that, you this is why I was say say that, you know, history doesn't repeat itself. Of know, history doesn't repeat itself. Of know, history doesn't repeat itself. Of course, it doesn't. It it can't possibly course, it doesn't. It it can't possibly course, it doesn't. It it can't possibly repeat itself because we're always repeat itself because we're always repeat itself because we're always living in a a constantly evolving time. living in a a constantly evolving time. living in a a constantly evolving time. But patterns of human behavior do. And But patterns of human behavior do. And But patterns of human behavior do. And what you always get after economic what you always get after economic what you always get after economic crisis is political upheaval. Always, crisis is political upheaval. Always, crisis is political upheaval. Always, always, always. because some people are always, always. because some people are always, always. because some people are in a worse off position than they were in a worse off position than they were in a worse off position than they were financially before. They're thinking h financially before. They're thinking h financially before. They're thinking h well, you know, the current system well, you know, the current system well, you know, the current system doesn't work. What's the alternative?

doesn't work. What's the alternative? doesn't work. What's the alternative? So, you know, in the case of of now, we So, you know, in the case of of now, we So, you know, in the case of of now, we in the west, you know, we face, first of in the west, you know, we face, first of in the west, you know, we face, first of all, we faced the crisis of 2008, all, we faced the crisis of 2008, all, we faced the crisis of 2008, financial crisis 2008. Then we've had financial crisis 2008. Then we've had financial crisis 2008. Then we've had the kind of double whammy of COVID and the kind of double whammy of COVID and the kind of double whammy of COVID and that has been incredibly unsettling. And that has been incredibly unsettling. And that has been incredibly unsettling. And so, we're now in a a situation of of so, we're now in a a situation of of so, we're now in a a situation of of political turmoil. And whether you're political turmoil. And whether you're political turmoil. And whether you're whether you're whether you're proTrump whether you're whether you're proTrump whether you're whether you're proTrump or anti-Trump, what he's offering is or anti-Trump, what he's offering is or anti-Trump, what he's offering is something completely different. something completely different. something completely different. And you know, it's say, you know, he And you know, it's say, you know, he And you know, it's say, you know, he he's saying the old ways don't work. You he's saying the old ways don't work. You he's saying the old ways don't work. You know, I'm going to be I'm just going to know, I'm going to be I'm just going to know, I'm going to be I'm just going to say what I think. I'm just going to I'm say what I think. I'm just going to I'm say what I think. I'm just going to I'm going to come out. I'm not going to going to come out. I'm not going to going to come out. I'm not going to bother with all the sheen of diplomacy bother with all the sheen of diplomacy bother with all the sheen of diplomacy and kind of, you know, meymouth words and kind of, you know, meymouth words and kind of, you know, meymouth words that politicians always use, you know, that politicians always use, you know, that politicians always use, you know, which where you can't trust anyone. I'm which where you can't trust anyone. I'm which where you can't trust anyone. I'm just going to tell you as it is. And just going to tell you as it is. And just going to tell you as it is. And obviously people respond to that. You obviously people respond to that. You obviously people respond to that. You know, you you can understand why that know, you you can understand why that know, you you can understand why that has a has an appeal. And if the country has a has an appeal. And if the country has a has an appeal. And if the country already feels broken and here's someone already feels broken and here's someone already feels broken and here's someone who is going to be a disruptor and going who is going to be a disruptor and going who is going to be a disruptor and going to change the the way you go about to change the the way you go about to change the the way you go about things, you can see why a a reasonably things, you can see why a a reasonably things, you can see why a a reasonably large proportion of the population is large proportion of the population is large proportion of the population is going to go, I'll have a piece of that. going to go, I'll have a piece of that. going to go, I'll have a piece of that. Thank you very much. And especially uh Thank you very much. And especially uh Thank you very much. And especially uh when the country is in a economic crisis when the country is in a economic crisis when the country is in a economic crisis like Germany was, I think you've written like Germany was, I think you've written like Germany was, I think you've written that the the Treaty of Versailles that the the Treaty of Versailles that the the Treaty of Versailles created Hitler and the uh the Wall created Hitler and the uh the Wall created Hitler and the uh the Wall Street crash and the great depression Street crash and the great depression Street crash and the great depression brought him to power. Yes. And of course brought him to power. Yes. And of course brought him to power. Yes. And of course the propaganda machine that you describe the propaganda machine that you describe the propaganda machine that you describe is the thing that got everybody else in is the thing that got everybody else in is the thing that got everybody else in Germany on board. Yeah. It's it's it's Germany on board. Yeah. It's it's it's Germany on board. Yeah. It's it's it's amazing how he cuz he comes in with 33% amazing how he cuz he comes in with 33% amazing how he cuz he comes in with 33% of the vote. He had 37% of the vote of

of the vote. He had 37% of the vote of of the vote. He had 37% of the vote of the vote in July 1942. So again, this is the vote in July 1942. So again, this is the vote in July 1942. So again, this is another period of of turmoil just like another period of of turmoil just like another period of of turmoil just like it is in France where you're having it is in France where you're having it is in France where you're having constant different kind of coalitions constant different kind of coalitions constant different kind of coalitions and you know different chancellors and you know different chancellors and you know different chancellors leaders of Germany. So, it's very leaders of Germany. So, it's very leaders of Germany. So, it's very possible he he he wouldn't have come to possible he he he wouldn't have come to possible he he he wouldn't have come to power. Well, he said he he said, "I will power. Well, he said he he said, "I will power. Well, he said he he said, "I will only, you know, we will only take our only, you know, we will only take our only, you know, we will only take our seats if if if I can be chanced. seats if if if I can be chanced. seats if if if I can be chanced. Otherwise, forget it. I'm not coming Otherwise, forget it. I'm not coming Otherwise, forget it. I'm not coming into any coalition." So, into any coalition." So, into any coalition." So, then the uh the government falls again then the uh the government falls again then the uh the government falls again in January 1943. They have the they have in January 1943. They have the they have in January 1943. They have the they have the the the election. The Nazi vote is down from election. The Nazi vote is down from election. The Nazi vote is down from where it was the previous summer. But where it was the previous summer. But where it was the previous summer. But this time, they go, "Okay, Heather can this time, they go, "Okay, Heather can this time, they go, "Okay, Heather can be chancellor, but we'll manipulate be chancellor, but we'll manipulate be chancellor, but we'll manipulate him." how wrong they were. You know, him." how wrong they were. You know, him." how wrong they were. You know, he's manipulating everyone and then he's manipulating everyone and then he's manipulating everyone and then Hinderberg who is the president dies the Hinderberg who is the president dies the Hinderberg who is the president dies the following summer and uh he's able to get following summer and uh he's able to get following summer and uh he's able to get rid of the presidency. There is no more rid of the presidency. There is no more rid of the presidency. There is no more president of Germany. There is just the president of Germany. There is just the president of Germany. There is just the furer him and he gets rid of uh he has a furer him and he gets rid of uh he has a furer him and he gets rid of uh he has a enabling act which is where all other uh enabling act which is where all other uh enabling act which is where all other uh political parties have disbanded and political parties have disbanded and political parties have disbanded and suddenly you've got a total inherent suddenly you've got a total inherent suddenly you've got a total inherent state just like that. I think there's a state just like that. I think there's a state just like that. I think there's a lesson there. Uh there's many lessons lesson there. Uh there's many lessons lesson there. Uh there's many lessons there, but one of them is don't let an there, but one of them is don't let an there, but one of them is don't let an extremist into government. Yes. And extremist into government. Yes. And extremist into government. Yes. And assume you can control them. Yes. The assume you can control them. Yes. The assume you can control them. Yes. The arrogance of the existing politicians arrogance of the existing politicians arrogance of the existing politicians who just completely screwed it up. I who just completely screwed it up. I who just completely screwed it up. I mean, there is a real power to an mean, there is a real power to an mean, there is a real power to an extremist. Like there's uh a person who extremist. Like there's uh a person who extremist. Like there's uh a person who sees the world in in black and sees the world in in black and sees the world in in black and white can really gain the attention and

white can really gain the attention and white can really gain the attention and the support of the populace. Yes, the support of the populace. Yes, the support of the populace. Yes, especially when there's a resentment especially when there's a resentment especially when there's a resentment about like Treaty of Versailles, when about like Treaty of Versailles, when about like Treaty of Versailles, when there's economic there's economic there's economic hardship and if there's effective modern hardship and if there's effective modern hardship and if there's effective modern technology that allows you to do technology that allows you to do technology that allows you to do propaganda and sell the message. There's propaganda and sell the message. There's propaganda and sell the message. There's something really compelling about the something really compelling about the something really compelling about the black and white message. It is because black and white message. It is because black and white message. It is because it's simple and and what Hitler does it's simple and and what Hitler does it's simple and and what Hitler does throughout the 1920s is he sticks to throughout the 1920s is he sticks to throughout the 1920s is he sticks to this there there is actually when he this there there is actually when he this there there is actually when he comes out of prison in so he there's the comes out of prison in so he there's the comes out of prison in so he there's the bhole p in November bhole p in November bhole p in November 1923 he gets uh charged with treason 1923 he gets uh charged with treason 1923 he gets uh charged with treason which he has been because he's which he has been because he's which he has been because he's attempting a coup and he gets sentenced attempting a coup and he gets sentenced attempting a coup and he gets sentenced to 5 years which is pretty lenient for to 5 years which is pretty lenient for to 5 years which is pretty lenient for what he's done and he then gets let out what he's done and he then gets let out what he's done and he then gets let out after 9 months. The Nazi party is is is is banned at The Nazi party is is is is banned at that point, but then comes back into that point, but then comes back into that point, but then comes back into being. And the year that follows, there being. And the year that follows, there being. And the year that follows, there is then a substantial debate about where is then a substantial debate about where is then a substantial debate about where the party should go. And there are the party should go. And there are the party should go. And there are actually a large number of people who actually a large number of people who actually a large number of people who think that actually they should be think that actually they should be think that actually they should be looking at how the Soviets are doing looking at how the Soviets are doing looking at how the Soviets are doing things and taking some of the some of things and taking some of the some of things and taking some of the some of the things that they consider to be the things that they consider to be the things that they consider to be positive out of the communist state and positive out of the communist state and positive out of the communist state and applying those to the Nazis. and Hitler applying those to the Nazis. and Hitler applying those to the Nazis. and Hitler goes, "No, no, no, no, no, no. We we goes, "No, no, no, no, no, no. We we goes, "No, no, no, no, no, no. We we we've just got to stick to this kind of we've just got to stick to this kind of we've just got to stick to this kind of Jewish bosshit thing. This is this is Jewish bosshit thing. This is this is Jewish bosshit thing. This is this is how we're going to do it. This we're how we're going to do it. This we're how we're going to do it. This we're going to do it." Gerbles, for example, going to do it." Gerbles, for example, going to do it." Gerbles, for example, who is who is very open. He's he's very who is who is very open. He's he's very who is who is very open. He's he's very very Joseph Gerbles is a he's a he's a

very Joseph Gerbles is a he's a he's a very Joseph Gerbles is a he's a he's a not very successful um journalist. He is not very successful um journalist. He is not very successful um journalist. He is uh but he does have a PhD in German uh but he does have a PhD in German uh but he does have a PhD in German literature. He's very disaffected literature. He's very disaffected literature. He's very disaffected because he was born with talipes, which because he was born with talipes, which because he was born with talipes, which is, you know, more commonly known as a is, you know, more commonly known as a is, you know, more commonly known as a club foot. He's disabled. can't fight in club foot. He's disabled. can't fight in club foot. He's disabled. can't fight in the First World War. He's very the First World War. He's very the First World War. He's very frustrated by that. He's in a deep frustrated by that. He's in a deep frustrated by that. He's in a deep despair about about the state of Germany despair about about the state of Germany despair about about the state of Germany in the first part of the early 1920s. in the first part of the early 1920s. in the first part of the early 1920s. He's looking for a uh um a a political He's looking for a uh um a a political He's looking for a uh um a a political messiah as a sort of quai religious messiah as a sort of quai religious messiah as a sort of quai religious messiah. Thinks it's Hitler, then messiah. Thinks it's Hitler, then messiah. Thinks it's Hitler, then discovers that Hitler's not open to any discovers that Hitler's not open to any discovers that Hitler's not open to any ideas at all uh about any deviation, but ideas at all uh about any deviation, but ideas at all uh about any deviation, but then sees the light. Hitler recognizes then sees the light. Hitler recognizes then sees the light. Hitler recognizes that this guy is someone that he wants that this guy is someone that he wants that this guy is someone that he wants on his side. And so then goes to him, on his side. And so then goes to him, on his side. And so then goes to him, makes a real special effort. Come on, makes a real special effort. Come on, makes a real special effort. Come on, come to dinner. I think you're great. come to dinner. I think you're great. come to dinner. I think you're great. You know, all this kind of stuff. Wins You know, all this kind of stuff. Wins You know, all this kind of stuff. Wins him about over and girls has this him about over and girls has this him about over and girls has this complete vault fast. Discards his complete vault fast. Discards his complete vault fast. Discards his earlier kind of yeah, you know, Hitler's earlier kind of yeah, you know, Hitler's earlier kind of yeah, you know, Hitler's right. I was wrong. Hitler is the kind right. I was wrong. Hitler is the kind right. I was wrong. Hitler is the kind of messiah figure that that I want to of messiah figure that that I want to of messiah figure that that I want to follow. I want to follow the hero hero follow. I want to follow the hero hero follow. I want to follow the hero hero leader. And they come on board and they leader. And they come on board and they leader. And they come on board and they absolutely work out. Hitler completely absolutely work out. Hitler completely absolutely work out. Hitler completely wins out. All dissenters within the what wins out. All dissenters within the what wins out. All dissenters within the what had been the German Workers Party drop had been the German Workers Party drop had been the German Workers Party drop becomes the German National Socialist becomes the German National Socialist becomes the German National Socialist Party becomes the Nazis. Um he comes out Party becomes the Nazis. Um he comes out Party becomes the Nazis. Um he comes out emerges as the absolute undisputed furer emerges as the absolute undisputed furer emerges as the absolute undisputed furer of that leader of that that party and of that leader of that that party and of that leader of that that party and what he says goes and everyone toes him what he says goes and everyone toes him what he says goes and everyone toes him behind it and part of the genius of that behind it and part of the genius of that behind it and part of the genius of that you know Hitler does have some genius. I you know Hitler does have some genius. I you know Hitler does have some genius. I just don't think it's military, but he just don't think it's military, but he just don't think it's military, but he does have some genius. There's no

does have some genius. There's no does have some genius. There's no question about it. Is this the question about it. Is this the question about it. Is this the simplicity of message what he's doing is simplicity of message what he's doing is simplicity of message what he's doing is it's that kind of us and them thing that it's that kind of us and them thing that it's that kind of us and them thing that we were talking about earlier on. It's we were talking about earlier on. It's we were talking about earlier on. It's the kind of either or. It's kind of it's the kind of either or. It's kind of it's the kind of either or. It's kind of it's my way or the highway. It's kind of this my way or the highway. It's kind of this my way or the highway. It's kind of this is the only way. This is how we get to is the only way. This is how we get to is the only way. This is how we get to the sunlet uplands. This is how we we the sunlet uplands. This is how we we the sunlet uplands. This is how we we create this create this create this amazing master race of the this amazing master race of the this amazing master race of the this unification of German peoples which unification of German peoples which unification of German peoples which dominates the world which is the dominates the world which is the dominates the world which is the preeminent power in the world for the preeminent power in the world for the preeminent power in the world for the next thousand years or it's decay and next thousand years or it's decay and next thousand years or it's decay and despair and being crushed by our enemies despair and being crushed by our enemies despair and being crushed by our enemies and our enemies are the Jews and and the and our enemies are the Jews and and the and our enemies are the Jews and and the bolevixs the bolevixs the bolevixs the communists and what he taps into as well communists and what he taps into as well communists and what he taps into as well is front ginehaft and vultmine shaft is front ginehaft and vultmine shaft is front ginehaft and vultmine shaft And these are there's no direct English And these are there's no direct English And these are there's no direct English translation of Volska shaft or indeed translation of Volska shaft or indeed translation of Volska shaft or indeed France shaft but but but in its most France shaft but but but in its most France shaft but but but in its most basic form it's community it's people basic form it's community it's people basic form it's community it's people community or front veterans community. community or front veterans community. community or front veterans community. So the front mine shaft is we are the So the front mine shaft is we are the So the front mine shaft is we are the guys we're bonded because we were in the guys we're bonded because we were in the guys we're bonded because we were in the trenches you know we were in the first trenches you know we were in the first trenches you know we were in the first world war. We were the people who world war. We were the people who world war. We were the people who bravely stuck it out saw our friends bravely stuck it out saw our friends bravely stuck it out saw our friends being slaughtered and blown to pieces.

being slaughtered and blown to pieces. being slaughtered and blown to pieces. We we did our duty as proud Germans, but We we did our duty as proud Germans, but We we did our duty as proud Germans, but we were let down by the elites and we we were let down by the elites and we we were let down by the elites and we were let down by the by this Jewish were let down by the by this Jewish were let down by the by this Jewish Bolevik plot. You know, we were stabbed Bolevik plot. You know, we were stabbed Bolevik plot. You know, we were stabbed in the back. The myth of the stab in the back. The myth of the stab in the back. The myth of the stab stabbing in the back is very very stabbing in the back is very very stabbing in the back is very very strong. So, we're bound we're bonded by strong. So, we're bound we're bonded by strong. So, we're bound we're bonded by our experiences of the First World War our experiences of the First World War our experiences of the First World War and the fact that we did what we should and the fact that we did what we should and the fact that we did what we should and what we could and we were we didn't and what we could and we were we didn't and what we could and we were we didn't fail in what we were doing. we were fail in what we were doing. we were fail in what we were doing. we were failed by our leaders um and by the failed by our leaders um and by the failed by our leaders um and by the elites. So that's that's front commine elites. So that's that's front commine elites. So that's that's front commine shaft. Volkine shaft is this sense of shaft. Volkine shaft is this sense of shaft. Volkine shaft is this sense of national unity. It's it's it's a national unity. It's it's it's a national unity. It's it's it's a cultural ethnic bonding of people who cultural ethnic bonding of people who cultural ethnic bonding of people who speak German who have a have a similar speak German who have a have a similar speak German who have a have a similar outlook on life. And again that just outlook on life. And again that just outlook on life. And again that just reinforces the us and them good and reinforces the us and them good and reinforces the us and them good and evil. It reinforces the black and white evil. It reinforces the black and white evil. It reinforces the black and white worldview. And then you add that to this worldview. And then you add that to this worldview. And then you add that to this very simple message which Hitler is very simple message which Hitler is very simple message which Hitler is repeating over and over again.

repeating over and over again. repeating over and over again. Communists are a big threat. Jews are a Communists are a big threat. Jews are a Communists are a big threat. Jews are a big threat. They're the they're the big threat. They're the they're the big threat. They're the they're the enemy. You have to have a you have to enemy. You have to have a you have to enemy. You have to have a you have to have an opposition in the them and us have an opposition in the them and us have an opposition in the them and us kind kind kind of process. And that's what he's doing. of process. And that's what he's doing. of process. And that's what he's doing. And and people just buy into it. They And and people just buy into it. They And and people just buy into it. They go, "Yeah, we're together. We're go, "Yeah, we're together. We're go, "Yeah, we're together. We're Germans. We're, you know, we're a Germans. We're, you know, we're a Germans. We're, you know, we're a brotherhood. brotherhood. brotherhood. we've got our Volskar mine shaft and so we've got our Volskar mine shaft and so we've got our Volskar mine shaft and so he cleverly ties into that and taps into he cleverly ties into that and taps into he cleverly ties into that and taps into that but they're an irrelevance by the that but they're an irrelevance by the that but they're an irrelevance by the late 1920s you know by 1928 you know the late 1920s you know by 1928 you know the late 1920s you know by 1928 you know the the he's not going to get a deal for the he's not going to get a deal for the he's not going to get a deal for Mine Camp part two you know he he's he's Mine Camp part two you know he he's he's Mine Camp part two you know he he's he's he's impoverished the party's he's impoverished the party's he's impoverished the party's impoverished you know numbers are down impoverished you know numbers are down impoverished you know numbers are down there they're a kind of you know a best there they're a kind of you know a best there they're a kind of you know a best and and a relevance we should say he and and a relevance we should say he and and a relevance we should say he wrote minecom at this time when he was wrote minecom at this time when he was wrote minecom at this time when he was in prison he writes he writes most of in prison he writes he writes most of in prison he writes he writes most of mine in prison in Lansburg prison And mine in prison in Lansburg prison And mine in prison in Lansburg prison And then he writes the rest of it in what then he writes the rest of it in what then he writes the rest of it in what becomes known as the campfousel which is becomes known as the campfousel which is becomes known as the campfousel which is this little wooden hut in the in the this little wooden hut in the in the this little wooden hut in the in the Oberalssburg and you can still see the Oberalssburg and you can still see the Oberalssburg and you can still see the remnants of that and unfortunately remnants of that and unfortunately remnants of that and unfortunately there's still little candles there and there's still little candles there and there's still little candles there and stuff in the woods and you know by by stuff in the woods and you know by by stuff in the woods and you know by by neo-Nazis and what what have you but neo-Nazis and what what have you but neo-Nazis and what what have you but that's where he wrote wrote the rest of that's where he wrote wrote the rest of that's where he wrote wrote the rest of it. Um I mean it was John Jacqu Russo it. Um I mean it was John Jacqu Russo it. Um I mean it was John Jacqu Russo who says man has his greatest force when who says man has his greatest force when who says man has his greatest force when surrounded by nature. That was something surrounded by nature. That was something surrounded by nature. That was something that kind of Hitler took very much to that kind of Hitler took very much to that kind of Hitler took very much to heart. Um there was a there was a mentor heart. Um there was a there was a mentor heart. Um there was a there was a mentor of his called Dietrich Echart. Dri of his called Dietrich Echart. Dri of his called Dietrich Echart. Dri Echart introduced him to the Obisalsburg Echart introduced him to the Obisalsburg Echart introduced him to the Obisalsburg and the beauty of the southwest and the beauty of the southwest and the beauty of the southwest southeast Bavarian Alps around Burkis southeast Bavarian Alps around Burkis southeast Bavarian Alps around Burkis Garden and um and that was his favorite Garden and um and that was his favorite Garden and um and that was his favorite place on the planet and um that's where

place on the planet and um that's where place on the planet and um that's where he that's where he eventually bought the he that's where he eventually bought the he that's where he eventually bought the um the uh the Burhoff with the royalties um the uh the Burhoff with the royalties um the uh the Burhoff with the royalties it has to be said from Mine Camp which it has to be said from Mine Camp which it has to be said from Mine Camp which went from being you know almost pulp to went from being you know almost pulp to went from being you know almost pulp to suddenly being a runaway bestseller suddenly being a runaway bestseller suddenly being a runaway bestseller unfortunately. Can you actually comment unfortunately. Can you actually comment unfortunately. Can you actually comment on that? It's a shitty manifesto as far on that? It's a shitty manifesto as far on that? It's a shitty manifesto as far as manifestos goes. I think there's a as manifestos goes. I think there's a as manifestos goes. I think there's a lot of values to lot of values to lot of values to understand from a first-person understand from a first-person understand from a first-person perspective the words of a dictator of a perspective the words of a dictator of a perspective the words of a dictator of a person like Hitler, but it just feels person like Hitler, but it just feels person like Hitler, but it just feels like that's just such a shitty Yeah. I like that's just such a shitty Yeah. I like that's just such a shitty Yeah. I mean, you know, it's banned in a number mean, you know, it's banned in a number mean, you know, it's banned in a number of countries. You don't need to cuz no of countries. You don't need to cuz no of countries. You don't need to cuz no one's going to read it because it's one's going to read it because it's one's going to read it because it's unreadable, you know. Um I mean, it's unreadable, you know. Um I mean, it's unreadable, you know. Um I mean, it's it's very untidy. It's it's very it's very untidy. It's it's very it's very untidy. It's it's very incoherent. It's it's got no um there's incoherent. It's it's got no um there's incoherent. It's it's got no um there's no narrative arc to use a kind of, you no narrative arc to use a kind of, you no narrative arc to use a kind of, you know, a writer's phrase. I mean it's know, a writer's phrase. I mean it's know, a writer's phrase. I mean it's just it's but but but it does give you a just it's but but but it does give you a just it's but but but it does give you a very clear you know the overall very clear you know the overall very clear you know the overall impression you get at the end of it is impression you get at the end of it is impression you get at the end of it is is the kind of communists and the Jews is the kind of communists and the Jews is the kind of communists and the Jews are to blame for everything. Yeah. But are to blame for everything. Yeah. But are to blame for everything. Yeah. But there's also the component of you know there's also the component of you know there's also the component of you know predicting basically World War II there.

predicting basically World War II there. predicting basically World War II there. So it's not just they're to blame. He's So it's not just they're to blame. He's So it's not just they're to blame. He's he's hungry for war. He he thinks that he's hungry for war. He he thinks that he's hungry for war. He he thinks that this is this is the natural state that this is this is the natural state that this is this is the natural state that we have to have this terrible conflict we have to have this terrible conflict we have to have this terrible conflict and once the conflict's over Germany and once the conflict's over Germany and once the conflict's over Germany will emerge victorious and then there will emerge victorious and then there will emerge victorious and then there will be the thousand-y year Reich. I will be the thousand-y year Reich. I will be the thousand-y year Reich. I mean you mean you mean you I I'm finding myself in in talking to I I'm finding myself in in talking to I I'm finding myself in in talking to you. I keep saying this kind of, you you. I keep saying this kind of, you you. I keep saying this kind of, you know, it's Armageddon all the thousand know, it's Armageddon all the thousand know, it's Armageddon all the thousand year, right? It's because it comes up. year, right? It's because it comes up. year, right? It's because it comes up. It's it's it's unavoidable because It's it's it's unavoidable because It's it's it's unavoidable because that's how he's speaking the whole time. that's how he's speaking the whole time. that's how he's speaking the whole time. It's just this same message over and It's just this same message over and It's just this same message over and over and over and over again. It's a over and over and over again. It's a over and over and over again. It's a pretty unique way of speaking, sort of pretty unique way of speaking, sort of pretty unique way of speaking, sort of allowing uh violence as a tool in this allowing uh violence as a tool in this allowing uh violence as a tool in this picture that there's a hierarchy, that picture that there's a hierarchy, that picture that there's a hierarchy, that there's a superior race and inferior there's a superior race and inferior there's a superior race and inferior races, and it's okay to destroy the races, and it's okay to destroy the races, and it's okay to destroy the inferior ones. Yeah, usually politicians inferior ones. Yeah, usually politicians inferior ones. Yeah, usually politicians don't speak that way. They just say, don't speak that way. They just say, don't speak that way. They just say, "Well, here's good and evil. We're the "Well, here's good and evil. We're the "Well, here's good and evil. We're the good guys." And yeah, maybe we'll good guys." And yeah, maybe we'll good guys." And yeah, maybe we'll destroy the evil a little bit. No, here destroy the evil a little bit. No, here destroy the evil a little bit. No, here is like there's a is like there's a is like there's a complete certainty about a very large complete certainty about a very large complete certainty about a very large number of people, the Slavic people, number of people, the Slavic people, number of people, the Slavic people, they just need to be removed. Well, they they just need to be removed. Well, they they just need to be removed. Well, they need to be made an irrelevance. You need to be made an irrelevance. You need to be made an irrelevance. You know, we have to take it we have to take know, we have to take it we have to take know, we have to take it we have to take it and if that if that kills millions of it and if that if that kills millions of it and if that if that kills millions of them, fine. Then then they can sort of them, fine. Then then they can sort of them, fine. Then then they can sort of squish their way over to Siberia. It squish their way over to Siberia. It squish their way over to Siberia. It doesn't matter where they go or whatever doesn't matter where they go or whatever doesn't matter where they go or whatever they go. I don't care. We just need to they go. I don't care. We just need to they go. I don't care. We just need to populate this land that belongs to the populate this land that belongs to the populate this land that belongs to the German people. Yeah. Cuz they're the German people. Yeah. Cuz they're the German people. Yeah. Cuz they're the superior people. There's no question superior people. There's no question superior people. There's no question that he glorifies violence and war. You that he glorifies violence and war. You that he glorifies violence and war. You know, he's absolutely chomping at the know, he's absolutely chomping at the know, he's absolutely chomping at the bit. And in a way, I think he's a bit bit. And in a way, I think he's a bit bit. And in a way, I think he's a bit disappointed that that in the disappointed that that in the disappointed that that in the 1930s the the conquests that he does 1930s the the conquests that he does 1930s the the conquests that he does undertake are also peaceful. You know,

undertake are also peaceful. You know, undertake are also peaceful. You know, March 1948 goes straight into Austria. March 1948 goes straight into Austria. March 1948 goes straight into Austria. There's the Angelus. You know, not a There's the Angelus. You know, not a There's the Angelus. You know, not a shot is fired. You know, 1946 goes into shot is fired. You know, 1946 goes into shot is fired. You know, 1946 goes into Rhineland. reconquers that, retakes that Rhineland. reconquers that, retakes that Rhineland. reconquers that, retakes that over that from from uh from the over that from from uh from the over that from from uh from the occupying allies, not a shot is fired. occupying allies, not a shot is fired. occupying allies, not a shot is fired. You know, he takes the Sudan land, not a You know, he takes the Sudan land, not a You know, he takes the Sudan land, not a shot, barely a shot is fired. Um and shot, barely a shot is fired. Um and shot, barely a shot is fired. Um and then goes into into the rest of then goes into into the rest of then goes into into the rest of Czechosvaka in March 193039 and again, Czechosvaka in March 193039 and again, Czechosvaka in March 193039 and again, barely a shot is fired. And you know, barely a shot is fired. And you know, barely a shot is fired. And you know, it's a bit disappointing. You know, he it's a bit disappointing. You know, he it's a bit disappointing. You know, he wants to be wants to wants to be tested. wants to be wants to wants to be tested. wants to be wants to wants to be tested. He wants to kind of have the have the He wants to kind of have the have the He wants to kind of have the have the the wartime triumph. You could see him the wartime triumph. You could see him the wartime triumph. You could see him being frustrated about this in in the being frustrated about this in in the being frustrated about this in in the Munich crisis in 1948. He wants to Munich crisis in 1948. He wants to Munich crisis in 1948. He wants to fight. He's absolutely spoiling for it. fight. He's absolutely spoiling for it. fight. He's absolutely spoiling for it. He's desperate to go in. He's all ready He's desperate to go in. He's all ready He's desperate to go in. He's all ready and gung-ho. He's built his luftwaffer. and gung-ho. He's built his luftwaffer. and gung-ho. He's built his luftwaffer. He's he's got his his his panzas now. He's he's got his his his panzas now. He's he's got his his his panzas now. He's got his his his massive armed He's got his his his massive armed He's got his his his massive armed forces. You know, he wants to test them. forces. You know, he wants to test them. forces. You know, he wants to test them. He wants to wants to get this show on He wants to wants to get this show on He wants to wants to get this show on the road and prove it. You know, he is a the road and prove it. You know, he is a the road and prove it. You know, he is a he's an arch gambler. Hiller, you you he's an arch gambler. Hiller, you you he's an arch gambler. Hiller, you you make it seem so clear. make it seem so clear. make it seem so clear. But uh all the while to the rest of the But uh all the while to the rest of the But uh all the while to the rest of the world, to Chamberlain, to France, to world, to Chamberlain, to France, to world, to Chamberlain, to France, to Britain, to the rest of the world, he's Britain, to the rest of the world, he's Britain, to the rest of the world, he's saying he doesn't want that. He's making saying he doesn't want that. He's making saying he doesn't want that. He's making agreements. Everything you just agreements. Everything you just agreements. Everything you just mentioned, you just went through it so mentioned, you just went through it so mentioned, you just went through it so quickly. But those are agreements that quickly. But those are agreements that quickly. But those are agreements that were made that he's not going to do were made that he's not going to do were made that he's not going to do that. Uh and he does it over and over.

that. Uh and he does it over and over. that. Uh and he does it over and over. He violates the Treaty of Versailles. He He violates the Treaty of Versailles. He He violates the Treaty of Versailles. He violates every single treaty, but he violates every single treaty, but he violates every single treaty, but he still is doing the meeting. So may maybe still is doing the meeting. So may maybe still is doing the meeting. So may maybe can you go through it the leadup to the can you go through it the leadup to the can you go through it the leadup to the war 1939 September 1st like what are the war 1939 September 1st like what are the war 1939 September 1st like what are the different agreements what is the different agreements what is the different agreements what is the signaling he's doing what is he doing signaling he's doing what is he doing signaling he's doing what is he doing secretly in terms of building up the secretly in terms of building up the secretly in terms of building up the military force yes so he you know part military force yes so he you know part military force yes so he you know part of the treaty of size you're not you of the treaty of size you're not you of the treaty of size you're not you know you're allowed a very very limited know you're allowed a very very limited know you're allowed a very very limited um uh armed forces there's restrictions um uh armed forces there's restrictions um uh armed forces there's restrictions on naval expansion there's restrictions on naval expansion there's restrictions on naval expansion there's restrictions on the size of the army there's on the size of the army there's on the size of the army there's restrictions on the weapons you you can restrictions on the weapons you you can restrictions on the weapons you you can use. There are um you're not allowed an use. There are um you're not allowed an use. There are um you're not allowed an air force. But he starts doing this all air force. But he starts doing this all air force. But he starts doing this all clandestinely. Um you know there are clandestinely. Um you know there are clandestinely. Um you know there are people in um crop has got for example people in um crop has got for example people in um crop has got for example which is in the rur a sort of big um which is in the rur a sort of big um which is in the rur a sort of big um armous manufacturer they are producing armous manufacturer they are producing armous manufacturer they are producing tanks in elsewhere and parts elsewhere tanks in elsewhere and parts elsewhere tanks in elsewhere and parts elsewhere in in say the Netherlands for example in in say the Netherlands for example in in say the Netherlands for example and then shipping them back into back and then shipping them back into back and then shipping them back into back into Germany. They're doing Panza into Germany. They're doing Panza into Germany. They're doing Panza training exercises actually in the training exercises actually in the training exercises actually in the Soviet Union at this time. There's all Soviet Union at this time. There's all Soviet Union at this time. There's all sorts of things going on. The Luftwaffer sorts of things going on. The Luftwaffer sorts of things going on. The Luftwaffer is being announced to the world in 1935, is being announced to the world in 1935, is being announced to the world in 1935, but it's obviously been in the process but it's obviously been in the process but it's obviously been in the process of of developing long before that. The of of developing long before that. The of of developing long before that. The Meshmit 109 single engine fighter plane, Meshmit 109 single engine fighter plane, Meshmit 109 single engine fighter plane, for example, is created in 1934. So that for example, is created in 1934. So that for example, is created in 1934. So that they're doing all these things against they're doing all these things against they're doing all these things against it. And and the and the truth is is he's it. And and the and the truth is is he's it. And and the and the truth is is he's just constantly pushing what what can I just constantly pushing what what can I just constantly pushing what what can I get away with here? what what what will

get away with here? what what what will get away with here? what what what will pro you know and and of course Britain, pro you know and and of course Britain, pro you know and and of course Britain, France, the rest of rest of the world, France, the rest of rest of the world, France, the rest of rest of the world, rest of the allies, you know, they're rest of the allies, you know, they're rest of the allies, you know, they're all reeling from from the Wall Street all reeling from from the Wall Street all reeling from from the Wall Street crash and and the depression as well. crash and and the depression as well. crash and and the depression as well. So, have they got the stomach for this? So, have they got the stomach for this? So, have they got the stomach for this? Not really. You know, and perhaps Not really. You know, and perhaps Not really. You know, and perhaps actually on reflection the terms of actually on reflection the terms of actually on reflection the terms of Versail are a bit harsh anyway. So, you Versail are a bit harsh anyway. So, you Versail are a bit harsh anyway. So, you know, maybe we don't need to worry about know, maybe we don't need to worry about know, maybe we don't need to worry about it. And this just no political will. it. And this just no political will. it. And this just no political will. There's no political will to kind of There's no political will to kind of There's no political will to kind of fight against what Germany's doing. Then fight against what Germany's doing. Then fight against what Germany's doing. Then he gets away of it. So he suddenly he gets away of it. So he suddenly he gets away of it. So he suddenly starts realizing that that that that starts realizing that that that that starts realizing that that that that actually he can push this quite a long actually he can push this quite a long actually he can push this quite a long way because no one's going to stand up way because no one's going to stand up way because no one's going to stand up to him which is why he makes a decision to him which is why he makes a decision to him which is why he makes a decision in 1946 to go back into the you know in 1946 to go back into the you know in 1946 to go back into the you know into the rhin land you know which has into the rhin land you know which has into the rhin land you know which has been occupied by by French you know um been occupied by by French you know um been occupied by by French you know um um allied troops at that point he just um allied troops at that point he just um allied troops at that point he just walks in do your worst and no one's walks in do your worst and no one's walks in do your worst and no one's going to do anything cuz there isn't the going to do anything cuz there isn't the going to do anything cuz there isn't the stomach to do anything that was a big stomach to do anything that was a big stomach to do anything that was a big step in 1936 remilitarizing the Ryland I step in 1936 remilitarizing the Ryland I step in 1936 remilitarizing the Ryland I mean that that's a huge huge step of mean that that's a huge huge step of mean that that's a huge huge step of like, oh, I don't have to follow like, oh, I don't have to follow like, oh, I don't have to follow anybody's rules and they're gonna do anybody's rules and they're gonna do anybody's rules and they're gonna do nothing. And and he's looking at his nothing. And and he's looking at his nothing. And and he's looking at his military and he's and and he's also military and he's and and he's also military and he's and and he's also looking at response. So, one of the looking at response. So, one of the looking at response. So, one of the things they do is they, you know, it's things they do is they, you know, it's things they do is they, you know, it's really it's very clever. So, they get really it's very clever. So, they get really it's very clever. So, they get over the head of the uh army of the air, over the head of the uh army of the air, over the head of the uh army of the air, army dea, which is the um French air army dea, which is the um French air army dea, which is the um French air force, and they invite him over and force, and they invite him over and force, and they invite him over and they milk, who is the uh second command they milk, who is the uh second command they milk, who is the uh second command of the Luftwaffer, invites him over. So, of the Luftwaffer, invites him over. So, of the Luftwaffer, invites him over. So, come and see what we're what we're up come and see what we're what we're up come and see what we're what we're up to. you know, we want to be, you're our to. you know, we want to be, you're our to. you know, we want to be, you're our European neighbors. We're all friends European neighbors. We're all friends European neighbors. We're all friends together, this kind of stuff. Come and together, this kind of stuff. Come and together, this kind of stuff. Come and see what we've got. And he takes him to see what we've got. And he takes him to see what we've got. And he takes him to this airfield. There's a row of measures

this airfield. There's a row of measures this airfield. There's a row of measures 109's all lined up, like sort of 50 of 109's all lined up, like sort of 50 of 109's all lined up, like sort of 50 of them. And the the head of the army of them. And the the head of the army of them. And the the head of the army of the air sort of looks at him and goes, the air sort of looks at him and goes, the air sort of looks at him and goes, "G, that's impressive." And and Mil "G, that's impressive." And and Mil "G, that's impressive." And and Mil goes, "Well, let me go and take you to goes, "Well, let me go and take you to goes, "Well, let me go and take you to another airfield." And they they go off another airfield." And they they go off another airfield." And they they go off the sort of the bat route out of the the sort of the bat route out of the the sort of the bat route out of the airfield and a long securitous route in airfield and a long securitous route in airfield and a long securitous route in the Mercedes. Meanwhile, all the the Mercedes. Meanwhile, all the the Mercedes. Meanwhile, all the measurements take off from that measurements take off from that measurements take off from that airfield, going to land in the next airfield, going to land in the next airfield, going to land in the next airfield. Here's another. and they're airfield. Here's another. and they're airfield. Here's another. and they're all the same all the same all the same aircraft and the commander and chief of aircraft and the commander and chief of aircraft and the commander and chief of the army of the aircraft goes back to the army of the aircraft goes back to the army of the aircraft goes back to France and goes we're never going to be France and goes we're never going to be France and goes we're never going to be able to eat Germany. So you would able to eat Germany. So you would able to eat Germany. So you would earlier you were you were alluding to earlier you were you were alluding to earlier you were you were alluding to this earlier on you know how much is this earlier on you know how much is this earlier on you know how much is this sort of this this this just this this sort of this this this just this this sort of this this this just this hutzbar of this ability to kind hutzbar of this ability to kind hutzbar of this ability to kind of portray the the the the mechanized of portray the the the the mechanized of portray the the the the mechanized mollock. Um yeah it absolutely cows the mollock. Um yeah it absolutely cows the mollock. Um yeah it absolutely cows the enemy. So, so they're they're they're enemy. So, so they're they're they're enemy. So, so they're they're they're increasing the effectiveness of their increasing the effectiveness of their increasing the effectiveness of their armed forces purely by propaganda and by armed forces purely by propaganda and by armed forces purely by propaganda and by by mind games and by talking the talk. by mind games and by talking the talk. by mind games and by talking the talk. And you know, you look at we might all And you know, you look at we might all And you know, you look at we might all think these military parades that the think these military parades that the think these military parades that the Nazis have looked rather silly by Nazis have looked rather silly by Nazis have looked rather silly by today's standards, but you look what today's standards, but you look what today's standards, but you look what that looks like if you're the rest of that looks like if you're the rest of that looks like if you're the rest of the world. You're in Britain and you're the world. You're in Britain and you're the world. You're in Britain and you're still reading from the depression and still reading from the depression and still reading from the depression and you see the triumph of the will. You see you see the triumph of the will. You see you see the triumph of the will. You see some of that footage and you see these some of that footage and you see these some of that footage and you see these automatons in their steel helmets and automatons in their steel helmets and automatons in their steel helmets and you see the swastikers and you see you see the swastikers and you see you see the swastikers and you see hundreds of thousands of people all hundreds of thousands of people all hundreds of thousands of people all lined up and see Kyling and all the rest lined up and see Kyling and all the rest lined up and see Kyling and all the rest of it. You're going to think again of it. You're going to think again of it. You're going to think again before you go to war with people like before you go to war with people like before you go to war with people like that. It's also hard to put yourself in that. It's also hard to put yourself in that. It's also hard to put yourself in the in the mind of those leaders now now

the in the mind of those leaders now now the in the mind of those leaders now now that we have nuclear weapons. So nuclear that we have nuclear weapons. So nuclear that we have nuclear weapons. So nuclear weapons have weapons have weapons have created this kind of created this kind of created this kind of uh cloak of a kind of safety from uh cloak of a kind of safety from uh cloak of a kind of safety from mutually assured destruction. They that mutually assured destruction. They that mutually assured destruction. They that you think surely you will not do you you think surely you will not do you you think surely you will not do you know a million or two million uh soldier know a million or two million uh soldier know a million or two million uh soldier army invading another land, right? Just army invading another land, right? Just army invading another land, right? Just fullon gigantic hot war. Uh but at that fullon gigantic hot war. Uh but at that fullon gigantic hot war. Uh but at that time that's the real possibility. you time that's the real possibility. you time that's the real possibility. you you remember World War I. You remember you remember World War I. You remember you remember World War I. You remember all of that. So, you know, yeah, okay, all of that. So, you know, yeah, okay, all of that. So, you know, yeah, okay, there's a mad there's a mad there's a mad uh guy with a mustache. Uh he's making uh guy with a mustache. Uh he's making uh guy with a mustache. Uh he's making statements that this land belongs to statements that this land belongs to statements that this land belongs to Germany anyway cuz it's mostly German Germany anyway cuz it's mostly German Germany anyway cuz it's mostly German uh populated. So, and like you said, uh populated. So, and like you said, uh populated. So, and like you said, treaty versile wasn't really fair. And treaty versile wasn't really fair. And treaty versile wasn't really fair. And you can start justifying all kinds of you can start justifying all kinds of you can start justifying all kinds of things yourself. And maybe they got a things yourself. And maybe they got a things yourself. And maybe they got a point about the dancing corridor. You point about the dancing corridor. You point about the dancing corridor. You know, they are mainly Germans, German know, they are mainly Germans, German know, they are mainly Germans, German speaking people there. And you know, speaking people there. And you know, speaking people there. And you know, it's disconnected from East Prussia, it's disconnected from East Prussia, it's disconnected from East Prussia, which is just saying, you know, I can I which is just saying, you know, I can I which is just saying, you know, I can I I sort of get it, you know, maybe I sort of get it, you know, maybe I sort of get it, you know, maybe they've got a point, you know, and is they've got a point, you know, and is they've got a point, you know, and is Poland really a kind of thriving Poland really a kind of thriving Poland really a kind of thriving democracy anyway? Not really. By 1930, democracy anyway? Not really. By 1930, democracy anyway? Not really. By 1930, late 1930s, it's not. It's to all late 1930s, it's not. It's to all late 1930s, it's not. It's to all intents and purposes a dictatorship in intents and purposes a dictatorship in intents and purposes a dictatorship in Poland at that time. I Poland at that time. I Poland at that time. I mean, it it's not right that you just go mean, it it's not right that you just go mean, it it's not right that you just go and take someone else's country. Of and take someone else's country. Of and take someone else's country. Of course, you you can't do that. But but course, you you can't do that. But but course, you you can't do that. But but you can see why in Germany people are you can see why in Germany people are you can see why in Germany people are thinking they've got a point. You can thinking they've got a point. You can thinking they've got a point. You can also see why in France and Britain,

also see why in France and Britain, also see why in France and Britain, they're thinking, well, you know, do we they're thinking, well, you know, do we they're thinking, well, you know, do we really care about the polls? I mean, you really care about the polls? I mean, you really care about the polls? I mean, you know, is it worth going to to war over? know, is it worth going to to war over? know, is it worth going to to war over? Um, but there's kind of bigger things at Um, but there's kind of bigger things at Um, but there's kind of bigger things at play by this point. That that's the play by this point. That that's the play by this point. That that's the point. Yeah. But before we get to point. Yeah. But before we get to point. Yeah. But before we get to Poland, there Poland, there Poland, there is this meeting September is this meeting September is this meeting September 1938. Uh, so Chamberlain made three 1938. Uh, so Chamberlain made three 1938. Uh, so Chamberlain made three trips to meet with Hitler. Yeah. Uh, trips to meet with Hitler. Yeah. Uh, trips to meet with Hitler. Yeah. Uh, which culminated in the Munich which culminated in the Munich which culminated in the Munich conference. Yeah. On the 30th of conference. Yeah. On the 30th of conference. Yeah. On the 30th of September. Yeah. Where was Chamberlain, September. Yeah. Where was Chamberlain, September. Yeah. Where was Chamberlain, Hitler, Mussolini and Delej, prime Hitler, Mussolini and Delej, prime Hitler, Mussolini and Delej, prime minister of France. They met to discuss minister of France. They met to discuss minister of France. They met to discuss a century Czechoslovakia without any of a century Czechoslovakia without any of a century Czechoslovakia without any of the government officials of the government officials of the government officials of Czechoslovakia Czechoslovakia Czechoslovakia participating. And Hitler promised to participating. And Hitler promised to participating. And Hitler promised to make no more territorial conquest. And make no more territorial conquest. And make no more territorial conquest. And Chamberlain believed him. He chose to Chamberlain believed him. He chose to Chamberlain believed him. He chose to believe him, I think, is the thing is believe him, I think, is the thing is believe him, I think, is the thing is the point. So, so it's very interesting. the point. So, so it's very interesting. the point. So, so it's very interesting. So, so Chamberlain gets a very bad So, so Chamberlain gets a very bad So, so Chamberlain gets a very bad press. Um. Uh-oh. Well, no, I'm not. No, press. Um. Uh-oh. Well, no, I'm not. No, press. Um. Uh-oh. Well, no, I'm not. No, it's not really. Uh oh. It's it's it's not really. Uh oh. It's it's it's not really. Uh oh. It's it's it's I I I just think there's too much it's I I I just think there's too much it's I I I just think there's too much retrospective view on this. And and retrospective view on this. And and retrospective view on this. And and that's fine that's fine that's fine because we the whole point of history is because we the whole point of history is because we the whole point of history is you can look back and you can judge you can look back and you can judge you can look back and you can judge decisions that were made at a certain decisions that were made at a certain decisions that were made at a certain point through the prism of what point through the prism of what point through the prism of what subsequently happened, which of course subsequently happened, which of course subsequently happened, which of course the people that are making the decisions the people that are making the decisions the people that are making the decisions at the time can't because they're in at the time can't because they're in at the time can't because they're in that particular moment.

that particular moment. that particular moment. So I don't think Chamberlain did trust So I don't think Chamberlain did trust So I don't think Chamberlain did trust Hitler, but he wanted to give him the Hitler, but he wanted to give him the Hitler, but he wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. Britain was not benefit of the doubt. Britain was not benefit of the doubt. Britain was not obliged to Czechoslovakia at all. France obliged to Czechoslovakia at all. France obliged to Czechoslovakia at all. France was. France had signed a treaty with was. France had signed a treaty with was. France had signed a treaty with with Czechoslovakia in 1924, but but but with Czechoslovakia in 1924, but but but with Czechoslovakia in 1924, but but but Britain had not. So there was no Britain had not. So there was no Britain had not. So there was no obligation at all for Britain to do obligation at all for Britain to do obligation at all for Britain to do this. The only reason why Britain would this. The only reason why Britain would this. The only reason why Britain would go to war over Czechoslovakia is because go to war over Czechoslovakia is because go to war over Czechoslovakia is because of the threat of Nazism and what the of the threat of Nazism and what the of the threat of Nazism and what the ramifications of not going to war with ramifications of not going to war with ramifications of not going to war with him. But the problem is is that him. But the problem is is that him. But the problem is is that Chamberlain's interesting because in Chamberlain's interesting because in Chamberlain's interesting because in 1935 he was he was chances checker and 1935 he was he was chances checker and 1935 he was he was chances checker and when they started to sort of think okay when they started to sort of think okay when they started to sort of think okay we really do need to rearm um he was we really do need to rearm um he was we really do need to rearm um he was very much in favor of of substantially very much in favor of of substantially very much in favor of of substantially um expanding and rehabilitating the navy um expanding and rehabilitating the navy um expanding and rehabilitating the navy so updating existing battleships um and so updating existing battleships um and so updating existing battleships um and so on and also developing the air force. so on and also developing the air force. so on and also developing the air force. Mhm. There's not really much argument Mhm. There's not really much argument Mhm. There's not really much argument for having a large army because if you for having a large army because if you for having a large army because if you have a large army, you've got to have a large army, you've got to have a large army, you've got to maintain it. Britain is a small place. maintain it. Britain is a small place. maintain it. Britain is a small place. Where do you put them? You've also got Where do you put them? You've also got Where do you put them? You've also got to transport them. That's complicated.

to transport them. That's complicated. to transport them. That's complicated. Um, you've got to train them. You got to Um, you've got to train them. You got to Um, you've got to train them. You got to embarrass. You got to feed them. All embarrass. You got to feed them. All embarrass. You got to feed them. All this kind of stuff. It's there's a kind this kind of stuff. It's there's a kind this kind of stuff. It's there's a kind of sort of impracticality about having a of sort of impracticality about having a of sort of impracticality about having a large army. Whereas navies are great large army. Whereas navies are great large army. Whereas navies are great because you can keep them at sea and because you can keep them at sea and because you can keep them at sea and they can be, you know, on the water. Air they can be, you know, on the water. Air they can be, you know, on the water. Air Force is slightly different. Air power Force is slightly different. Air power Force is slightly different. Air power is viewed in very much the same way that is viewed in very much the same way that is viewed in very much the same way that that naval power is viewed. that this is that naval power is viewed. that this is that naval power is viewed. that this is we're an island nation. We have a global we're an island nation. We have a global we're an island nation. We have a global global assets and airpower gives us a global assets and airpower gives us a global assets and airpower gives us a flexibility that an army doesn't. So he flexibility that an army doesn't. So he flexibility that an army doesn't. So he is all for backing the expansion of the is all for backing the expansion of the is all for backing the expansion of the of the army of the air force and the of the army of the air force and the of the army of the air force and the navy in 1930s. Then he subsequently navy in 1930s. Then he subsequently navy in 1930s. Then he subsequently becomes prime minister and sticks his becomes prime minister and sticks his becomes prime minister and sticks his guns on that. It is he that enables the guns on that. It is he that enables the guns on that. It is he that enables the air force and and the air ministry to air force and and the air ministry to air force and and the air ministry to develop the first fully coordinated air develop the first fully coordinated air develop the first fully coordinated air defense system anywhere in the world. defense system anywhere in the world. defense system anywhere in the world. There is not an air event system in There is not an air event system in There is not an air event system in Poland, nor Norway, nor Denmark, nor the Poland, nor Norway, nor Denmark, nor the Poland, nor Norway, nor Denmark, nor the Netherlands, nor Belgium, nor France. Netherlands, nor Belgium, nor France. Netherlands, nor Belgium, nor France. There is in Britain. Britain is the only There is in Britain. Britain is the only There is in Britain. Britain is the only one. And frankly, it pays off big time one. And frankly, it pays off big time one. And frankly, it pays off big time in the summer of 1940. So you have to in the summer of 1940. So you have to in the summer of 1940. So you have to give him credit for that. Britain intro, give him credit for that. Britain intro, give him credit for that. Britain intro, interestingly, is also the world's interestingly, is also the world's interestingly, is also the world's leading armaments exporter in the 1930s, leading armaments exporter in the 1930s, leading armaments exporter in the 1930s, which is amazing really when you think which is amazing really when you think which is amazing really when you think everyone complains about the fact that everyone complains about the fact that everyone complains about the fact that we weren't rearming enough. actually we we weren't rearming enough. actually we we weren't rearming enough. actually we were when we had all the infrastructure were when we had all the infrastructure were when we had all the infrastructure there and and we were expanding that there and and we were expanding that there and and we were expanding that infrastructure dramatically. I say we infrastructure dramatically. I say we infrastructure dramatically. I say we I'm only saying that because I'm I'm only saying that because I'm I'm only saying that because I'm British. Uh um so they were doing that British. Uh um so they were doing that British. Uh um so they were doing that but in but in but in 1938 Britain wasn't ready for war. Now 1938 Britain wasn't ready for war. Now 1938 Britain wasn't ready for war. Now you can argue that Germany wasn't ready you can argue that Germany wasn't ready you can argue that Germany wasn't ready for war either. But Chamberlain was for war either. But Chamberlain was for war either. But Chamberlain was prime minister in a democracy, a prime minister in a democracy, a prime minister in a democracy, a parliamentary democracy where 92% of the

parliamentary democracy where 92% of the parliamentary democracy where 92% of the population were against going to war in population were against going to war in population were against going to war in 1938. There is there is not a 1938. There is there is not a 1938. There is there is not a single democratic leader in the world single democratic leader in the world single democratic leader in the world that would go against the wishes of 92% that would go against the wishes of 92% that would go against the wishes of 92% of the population. Now you could say of the population. Now you could say of the population. Now you could say well he should have just argued it well he should have just argued it well he should have just argued it better and presented his case better and better and presented his case better and better and presented his case better and all the rest of it but at that point all the rest of it but at that point all the rest of it but at that point there was no legal obligation to go to there was no legal obligation to go to there was no legal obligation to go to the defense of the defense of the defense of Czechoslovakia. You know Czechoslovakia Czechoslovakia. You know Czechoslovakia Czechoslovakia. You know Czechoslovakia been was a number of these new nations been was a number of these new nations been was a number of these new nations have been created out of out of 1919 in have been created out of out of 1919 in have been created out of out of 1919 in the Versail treaty. You know, who was to the Versail treaty. You know, who was to the Versail treaty. You know, who was to say, you know, we in Britain are able to say, you know, we in Britain are able to say, you know, we in Britain are able to judge the rights and wrongs of that. You judge the rights and wrongs of that. You judge the rights and wrongs of that. You know, how fantastic it would be to go to know, how fantastic it would be to go to know, how fantastic it would be to go to war with uh a nation a long way away for war with uh a nation a long way away for war with uh a nation a long way away for people whom we know very little, etc., people whom we know very little, etc., people whom we know very little, etc., etc. I'm paraphrasing his quote, but but etc. I'm paraphrasing his quote, but but etc. I'm paraphrasing his quote, but but I'm not saying it was the right I'm not saying it was the right I'm not saying it was the right decision. I'm just saying I can see why decision. I'm just saying I can see why decision. I'm just saying I can see why in September 1948, he is prepared to in September 1948, he is prepared to in September 1948, he is prepared to give him the chance. Now I do think he give him the chance. Now I do think he give him the chance. Now I do think he was a bit naive and it and and what he was a bit naive and it and and what he was a bit naive and it and and what he also does is this really interesting also does is this really interesting also does is this really interesting thing is he goes over to Hitler's flat thing is he goes over to Hitler's flat thing is he goes over to Hitler's flat completely ambushes him goes to his flat completely ambushes him goes to his flat completely ambushes him goes to his flat on the afternoon of 30th September and on the afternoon of 30th September and on the afternoon of 30th September and says to says to Hitler look I've got says to says to Hitler look I've got says to says to Hitler look I've got this I've drawn up this this agreement this I've drawn up this this agreement this I've drawn up this this agreement here um and this is to continue the um here um and this is to continue the um here um and this is to continue the um the naval agreement that we've already the naval agreement that we've already the naval agreement that we've already made and and by signing this you are made and and by signing this you are made and and by signing this you are saying that Germany and Britain should saying that Germany and Britain should saying that Germany and Britain should never go to war with one another and it never go to war with one another and it never go to war with one another and it goes yeah whatever you know signs it.

goes yeah whatever you know signs it. goes yeah whatever you know signs it. Yeah. Chamberlain comes back, lands a Yeah. Chamberlain comes back, lands a Yeah. Chamberlain comes back, lands a hand and waves his waves his little hand and waves his waves his little hand and waves his waves his little piece of paper, you know, peace in our piece of paper, you know, peace in our piece of paper, you know, peace in our time and all the rest of it, which time and all the rest of it, which time and all the rest of it, which obviously comes back to bite him in a obviously comes back to bite him in a obviously comes back to bite him in a very big way. But it's interesting that very big way. But it's interesting that very big way. But it's interesting that that that when Hitler then subsequently that that when Hitler then subsequently that that when Hitler then subsequently goes and moves in, you know, that they goes and moves in, you know, that they goes and moves in, you know, that they France and Britain decide in rather the France and Britain decide in rather the France and Britain decide in rather the same way that there's been discussion same way that there's been discussion same way that there's been discussion about deciding that large portions of about deciding that large portions of about deciding that large portions of Ukraine should just be handed back to Ukraine should just be handed back to Ukraine should just be handed back to handed over to Russia without consulting handed over to Russia without consulting handed over to Russia without consulting Ukraine a few weeks ago. Ukraine a few weeks ago. Ukraine a few weeks ago. Um it is incredible I think that that Um it is incredible I think that that Um it is incredible I think that that France and France and France and and Britain and Italy with Germany are and Britain and Italy with Germany are and Britain and Italy with Germany are deciding that yes it's fine for Germany deciding that yes it's fine for Germany deciding that yes it's fine for Germany to go in and take the Sudatan land you to go in and take the Sudatan land you to go in and take the Sudatan land you know without really consulting the know without really consulting the know without really consulting the checks. It's a sort of similar kind of checks. It's a sort of similar kind of checks. It's a sort of similar kind of scenario really and and it's equally scenario really and and it's equally scenario really and and it's equally wrong. Um, but when Germany does then go wrong. Um, but when Germany does then go wrong. Um, but when Germany does then go and take over the whole of and take over the whole of and take over the whole of Czechoslovakia in March 1939, that is Czechoslovakia in March 1939, that is Czechoslovakia in March 1939, that is that's the bottom line. That is that's that's the bottom line. That is that's that's the bottom line. That is that's the point where Chamberlain goes, "Okay, the point where Chamberlain goes, "Okay, the point where Chamberlain goes, "Okay, I've given him the benefit of the doubt.

I've given him the benefit of the doubt. I've given him the benefit of the doubt. No more benefits of doubt. That's it. No more benefits of doubt. That's it. No more benefits of doubt. That's it. That is he's he's crossed the line." And That is he's he's crossed the line." And That is he's he's crossed the line." And so you reinforce your agreement with so you reinforce your agreement with so you reinforce your agreement with Poland. You do a formal agreement. You Poland. You do a formal agreement. You Poland. You do a formal agreement. You go, "Okay, we will uphold your go, "Okay, we will uphold your go, "Okay, we will uphold your sovereignty. You know, if you are sovereignty. You know, if you are sovereignty. You know, if you are invaded, we will go to war with you." invaded, we will go to war with you." invaded, we will go to war with you." You know, and that is that is a a You know, and that is that is a a You know, and that is that is a a ratcheting up of diplomacy and politics ratcheting up of diplomacy and politics ratcheting up of diplomacy and politics in a very very big way. And it is a it in a very very big way. And it is a it in a very very big way. And it is a it is that decision is that decision is that decision to make a a treaty with the Poles is not to make a a treaty with the Poles is not to make a a treaty with the Poles is not heeded by Hitler, but it's heeded by heeded by Hitler, but it's heeded by heeded by Hitler, but it's heeded by literally every one of his commanders. literally every one of his commanders. literally every one of his commanders. And it's also h heeded by Guring who is And it's also h heeded by Guring who is And it's also h heeded by Guring who is his number two and who is obviously the his number two and who is obviously the his number two and who is obviously the commander-in-chief of the um of the commander-in-chief of the um of the commander-in-chief of the um of the Luftwaffer and Luftwaffer and Luftwaffer and is president of Prussia and you know and is president of Prussia and you know and is president of Prussia and you know and all the rest of it and you know is the all the rest of it and you know is the all the rest of it and you know is the second most senior Nazi and you know second most senior Nazi and you know second most senior Nazi and you know he's going this is a catastrophe. This he's going this is a catastrophe. This he's going this is a catastrophe. This is the last thing we want to be doing is is the last thing we want to be doing is is the last thing we want to be doing is going to war against Britain and indeed going to war against Britain and indeed going to war against Britain and indeed France.

France. France. The Munich conference is a pretty The Munich conference is a pretty The Munich conference is a pretty interesting moment I would say in all of interesting moment I would say in all of interesting moment I would say in all of human history because you got the human history because you got the human history because you got the leaders of leaders of leaders of these bigger than life nations and the these bigger than life nations and the these bigger than life nations and the most dramatic brewing conflict in human most dramatic brewing conflict in human most dramatic brewing conflict in human history. Yeah. Chamberlain, Hitler, history. Yeah. Chamberlain, Hitler, history. Yeah. Chamberlain, Hitler, Mussolini, Dier. It's interesting when Mussolini, Dier. It's interesting when Mussolini, Dier. It's interesting when these bigger than life leaders are in these bigger than life leaders are in these bigger than life leaders are in the room together. M uh is there the room together. M uh is there the room together. M uh is there something that you know about about something that you know about about something that you know about about their interactions? Yeah, I think their interactions? Yeah, I think their interactions? Yeah, I think there's I think one of the things that's there's I think one of the things that's there's I think one of the things that's interesting is is that Hitler's got home interesting is is that Hitler's got home interesting is is that Hitler's got home advantage cuz it's on his turf and you advantage cuz it's on his turf and you advantage cuz it's on his turf and you know to start off with the first meeting know to start off with the first meeting know to start off with the first meeting is at the burg his beloved place in the is at the burg his beloved place in the is at the burg his beloved place in the Oasisburg overlooking Burkus garden in Oasisburg overlooking Burkus garden in Oasisburg overlooking Burkus garden in the Alps. So he's pretty confident the Alps. So he's pretty confident the Alps. So he's pretty confident because this is my mana this is my turf because this is my mana this is my turf because this is my mana this is my turf you know uh I'm not going to be bossed you know uh I'm not going to be bossed you know uh I'm not going to be bossed around by these guys. But Chamberlain, around by these guys. But Chamberlain, around by these guys. But Chamberlain, for example, is going there thinking, for example, is going there thinking, for example, is going there thinking, I've been around the blocks. No one can I've been around the blocks. No one can I've been around the blocks. No one can teach me anything. I've been a teach me anything. I've been a teach me anything. I've been a politician for ages. You know, I'm not politician for ages. You know, I'm not politician for ages. You know, I'm not going to be kind of capped out by this going to be kind of capped out by this going to be kind of capped out by this this sort of, you know, Austrian this sort of, you know, Austrian this sort of, you know, Austrian upstart. So, they're both coming at it upstart. So, they're both coming at it upstart. So, they're both coming at it with a kind of sort with a kind of sort with a kind of sort of slight kind of superiority kind of of slight kind of superiority kind of of slight kind of superiority kind of conflict.

conflict. conflict. Um, interestingly, when you get to the Um, interestingly, when you get to the Um, interestingly, when you get to the actual meetings at the Bernabau in in actual meetings at the Bernabau in in actual meetings at the Bernabau in in Munich, um, a couple of weeks Munich, um, a couple of weeks Munich, um, a couple of weeks later, Chamberlain is cheered by the later, Chamberlain is cheered by the later, Chamberlain is cheered by the crowds when his car comes in, when he crowds when his car comes in, when he crowds when his car comes in, when he goes to his hotel, when he's moving from goes to his hotel, when he's moving from goes to his hotel, when he's moving from his hotel to the burnabout, you know, his hotel to the burnabout, you know, his hotel to the burnabout, you know, there are cows cheering him, we know, there are cows cheering him, we know, there are cows cheering him, we know, waving uni jacks, all this kind of waving uni jacks, all this kind of waving uni jacks, all this kind of stuff. Hillary does not like that at stuff. Hillary does not like that at stuff. Hillary does not like that at all. Not at all. Puts him on the back all. Not at all. Puts him on the back all. Not at all. Puts him on the back foot. And that's foot. And that's foot. And that's because the German people don't want because the German people don't want because the German people don't want war. In the same way that the British war. In the same way that the British war. In the same way that the British people don't want war, nor do the German people don't want war, nor do the German people don't want war, nor do the German people. The difference is that Hitler is people. The difference is that Hitler is people. The difference is that Hitler is a dictator and an autocrat and has the a dictator and an autocrat and has the a dictator and an autocrat and has the devotion of the people. So he can do devotion of the people. So he can do devotion of the people. So he can do what he wants in a way that Chamberlain what he wants in a way that Chamberlain what he wants in a way that Chamberlain can't. Chamberlain's hands are tied can't. Chamberlain's hands are tied can't. Chamberlain's hands are tied because he is an elected prime minister, because he is an elected prime minister, because he is an elected prime minister, an elected leader, political leader, and an elected leader, political leader, and an elected leader, political leader, and he's not head of state. So there is no he's not head of state. So there is no he's not head of state. So there is no question that it it is Hitler and question that it it is Hitler and question that it it is Hitler and Chamberlain that are the top dogs in Chamberlain that are the top dogs in Chamberlain that are the top dogs in this particular discussion. You know, this particular discussion. You know, this particular discussion. You know, Delier takes a backseat. Even Mussolini, Delier takes a backseat. Even Mussolini, Delier takes a backseat. Even Mussolini, although he's there, he doesn't want war although he's there, he doesn't want war although he's there, he doesn't want war either. You know, he wants to be left either. You know, he wants to be left either. You know, he wants to be left alone to do his own thing without anyone alone to do his own thing without anyone alone to do his own thing without anyone getting in the way, but he doesn't want getting in the way, but he doesn't want getting in the way, but he doesn't want he doesn't want to sort of it's not in he doesn't want to sort of it's not in he doesn't want to sort of it's not in his interest to have a European war. So, his interest to have a European war. So, his interest to have a European war. So, he's trying to avoid it. So, it is he's trying to avoid it. So, it is he's trying to avoid it. So, it is really you you see that the kind of really you you see that the kind of really you you see that the kind of alpha males in the room are are alpha males in the room are are alpha males in the room are are Chamberlain and and Hitler. And it's Chamberlain and and Hitler. And it's Chamberlain and and Hitler. And it's really interesting because Hitler's got really interesting because Hitler's got really interesting because Hitler's got this sort of slightly this sort of slightly this sort of slightly geralous voice and geralous voice and geralous voice and and very kind of pale blue eyes and such

and very kind of pale blue eyes and such and very kind of pale blue eyes and such distinct things. Quite a long nose and distinct things. Quite a long nose and distinct things. Quite a long nose and you know he always says this is why he you know he always says this is why he you know he always says this is why he has mustache to kind of you know has mustache to kind of you know has mustache to kind of you know disguise the big nose you know. So I was disguise the big nose you know. So I was disguise the big nose you know. So I was saying to you earlier on before we saying to you earlier on before we saying to you earlier on before we started recording he does have a sense started recording he does have a sense started recording he does have a sense of humor. It's not maybe not one that of humor. It's not maybe not one that of humor. It's not maybe not one that you and I would kind of tap into but but you and I would kind of tap into but but you and I would kind of tap into but but he does have one. Whereas Chamberlain is he does have one. Whereas Chamberlain is he does have one. Whereas Chamberlain is just sort of, you know, he sounds like a just sort of, you know, he sounds like a just sort of, you know, he sounds like a sort of, you know, bit like an old man, sort of, you know, bit like an old man, sort of, you know, bit like an old man, you know, he's sort of silverhead and he you know, he's sort of silverhead and he you know, he's sort of silverhead and he looks like your sort of archetypal kind looks like your sort of archetypal kind looks like your sort of archetypal kind of British gentleman with his rolled up of British gentleman with his rolled up of British gentleman with his rolled up umbrella and his, you know, and his umbrella and his, you know, and his umbrella and his, you know, and his homberg hat and all the rest of it. So homberg hat and all the rest of it. So homberg hat and all the rest of it. So they they're both sort of caricatures in they they're both sort of caricatures in they they're both sort of caricatures in a funny sort of way. And yet the a funny sort of way. And yet the a funny sort of way. And yet the consequence of that these discussions consequence of that these discussions consequence of that these discussions you know these these great events you know these these great events you know these these great events happening you know you are you're happening you know you are you're happening you know you are you're absolutely absolutely absolutely going even which way the Munich crisis going even which way the Munich crisis going even which way the Munich crisis comes out you're taking a step closer to comes out you're taking a step closer to comes out you're taking a step closer to war it's just whether the war is going war it's just whether the war is going war it's just whether the war is going to happen kind of next week or whether to happen kind of next week or whether to happen kind of next week or whether it's going to happen a year hence but it's going to happen a year hence but it's going to happen a year hence but it's you know the Munich crisis it's you know the Munich crisis it's you know the Munich crisis obviously doesn't stem the inevitability obviously doesn't stem the inevitability obviously doesn't stem the inevitability of war at all it just heightens it. Do of war at all it just heightens it. Do of war at all it just heightens it. Do you think uh there are words that you think uh there are words that you think uh there are words that Chamberlain should have said, could have Chamberlain should have said, could have Chamberlain should have said, could have said that uh put more pressure on said that uh put more pressure on said that uh put more pressure on Hitler, intimidate Hitler Hitler, intimidate Hitler Hitler, intimidate Hitler more? Yeah, it's a really tricky one.

more? Yeah, it's a really tricky one. more? Yeah, it's a really tricky one. It's such a difficult one because you're It's such a difficult one because you're It's such a difficult one because you're always looking at it through, you know, always looking at it through, you know, always looking at it through, you know, the enemy has a vote and you don't know the enemy has a vote and you don't know the enemy has a vote and you don't know what that vote is going to be and you what that vote is going to be and you what that vote is going to be and you don't know what it's going to look like. don't know what it's going to look like. don't know what it's going to look like. There's no question that that Europe, There's no question that that Europe, There's no question that that Europe, the rest of Europe is is is cowed by the the rest of Europe is is is cowed by the the rest of Europe is is is cowed by the um kind of impression of military might um kind of impression of military might um kind of impression of military might that the Germans have put out that they that the Germans have put out that they that the Germans have put out that they they certainly fear they are stronger they certainly fear they are stronger they certainly fear they are stronger than they actually are. And then on the than they actually are. And then on the than they actually are. And then on the other hand, they're also going, "Yeah, other hand, they're also going, "Yeah, other hand, they're also going, "Yeah, but you know, Germany doesn't have but you know, Germany doesn't have but you know, Germany doesn't have natural resources, doesn't have access natural resources, doesn't have access natural resources, doesn't have access to the world's oceans. You know, it's to the world's oceans. You know, it's to the world's oceans. You know, it's it's it's kind of, you know, it it's it's kind of, you know, it it's it's kind of, you know, it shouldn't be able to win a war." And so shouldn't be able to win a war." And so shouldn't be able to win a war." And so so they're kind of contradicting so they're kind of contradicting so they're kind of contradicting themselves at the same time, you know. themselves at the same time, you know. themselves at the same time, you know. So on one minute they're sort of, oh So on one minute they're sort of, oh So on one minute they're sort of, oh god, you don't want to take on those all god, you don't want to take on those all god, you don't want to take on those all those Nazis and all those swastikas and those Nazis and all those swastikas and those Nazis and all those swastikas and those automatan stormtroopers. But on those automatan stormtroopers. But on those automatan stormtroopers. But on the other hand, they're then saying, but the other hand, they're then saying, but the other hand, they're then saying, but actually Germany doesn't have much in actually Germany doesn't have much in actually Germany doesn't have much in its kind of, you know, in its basket. its kind of, you know, in its basket. its kind of, you know, in its basket. You know, it's it's got actually quite a You know, it's it's got actually quite a You know, it's it's got actually quite a lot of weaknesses and we should be able lot of weaknesses and we should be able lot of weaknesses and we should be able to kind of prevail blah blah blah. We'll to kind of prevail blah blah blah. We'll to kind of prevail blah blah blah. We'll just impose an economic blockade and just impose an economic blockade and just impose an economic blockade and then it'll be stuffed. And Britain is then it'll be stuffed. And Britain is then it'll be stuffed. And Britain is not ready to fight a war in in 1948, but not ready to fight a war in in 1948, but not ready to fight a war in in 1948, but nor is Hitler, you know, nor is Germany.

nor is Hitler, you know, nor is Germany. nor is Hitler, you know, nor is Germany. So, you know, one is sort of striking So, you know, one is sort of striking So, you know, one is sort of striking out the other, but it's very easy to say out the other, but it's very easy to say out the other, but it's very easy to say that in hindsight, but at the time, you that in hindsight, but at the time, you that in hindsight, but at the time, you know, with people kind of digging know, with people kind of digging know, with people kind of digging trenches in High Park in the central trenches in High Park in the central trenches in High Park in the central London and barish balloons going up over London and barish balloons going up over London and barish balloons going up over London and, you know, children being London and, you know, children being London and, you know, children being evacuated from the cities and 92% of the evacuated from the cities and 92% of the evacuated from the cities and 92% of the population not wanting to go to war. You population not wanting to go to war. You population not wanting to go to war. You can see why he takes the course he does. can see why he takes the course he does. can see why he takes the course he does. I suppose that's that's what I'm saying. I suppose that's that's what I'm saying. I suppose that's that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's necessarily the I'm not saying it's necessarily the I'm not saying it's necessarily the right decision, but I I think it's an right decision, but I I think it's an right decision, but I I think it's an understandable decision. But what about understandable decision. But what about understandable decision. But what about even just on the human level? If I go even just on the human level? If I go even just on the human level? If I go into a room with a British into a room with a British into a room with a British gentleman versus go into a room with gentleman versus go into a room with gentleman versus go into a room with Trump, it feels like it's so much easier Trump, it feels like it's so much easier Trump, it feels like it's so much easier to read and manipulate the British to read and manipulate the British to read and manipulate the British gentleman because Trump is like gentleman because Trump is like gentleman because Trump is like Trump-like characters. It seems like Trump-like characters. It seems like Trump-like characters. It seems like Hitler is similar. Churchill is similar. Hitler is similar. Churchill is similar. Hitler is similar. Churchill is similar. It's like this guy can do anything. It's like this guy can do anything. It's like this guy can do anything. There's something terrifying about the There's something terrifying about the There's something terrifying about the unpredictability. Yeah. Yeah. It feels unpredictability. Yeah. Yeah. It feels unpredictability. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like there's something very predictable like there's something very predictable like there's something very predictable about Chamberlain. Yes, I think that's about Chamberlain. Yes, I think that's about Chamberlain. Yes, I think that's true. But also, one has to take a step true. But also, one has to take a step true. But also, one has to take a step back and think about what Britain back and think about what Britain back and think about what Britain represents. So therefore, what represents. So therefore, what represents. So therefore, what Chamberlain represents in 1938. Britain Chamberlain represents in 1938. Britain Chamberlain represents in 1938. Britain has the largest empire the world has has the largest empire the world has has the largest empire the world has ever known in 1938. You know, third of ever known in 1938. You know, third of ever known in 1938. You know, third of the world is pink as the saying goes, the world is pink as the saying goes, the world is pink as the saying goes, you know, and that saying comes from the you know, and that saying comes from the you know, and that saying comes from the kind of atlas of the world where all kind of atlas of the world where all kind of atlas of the world where all British territories are kind of colored British territories are kind of colored British territories are kind of colored pink. Yeah. And on top of that, it has pink. Yeah. And on top of that, it has pink. Yeah. And on top of that, it has lots of extra imperial territories as lots of extra imperial territories as lots of extra imperial territories as well. So, you know, if you look at well. So, you know, if you look at well. So, you know, if you look at there's there's this incredible map of there's there's this incredible map of there's there's this incredible map of global shipping in

global shipping in global shipping in 1937. And there's these little ant lines 1937. And there's these little ant lines 1937. And there's these little ant lines of of ships going out and and one of the of of ships going out and and one of the of of ships going out and and one of the strongest antlines is going down to strongest antlines is going down to strongest antlines is going down to Argentina and South America from Argentina and South America from Argentina and South America from Britain. So, down past West Africa and Britain. So, down past West Africa and Britain. So, down past West Africa and down the southern Atlantic and there it down the southern Atlantic and there it down the southern Atlantic and there it is. And that's because Britain owns most is. And that's because Britain owns most is. And that's because Britain owns most of Argentina. It owns huge great farming of Argentina. It owns huge great farming of Argentina. It owns huge great farming estates and ranches. It owns the railway estates and ranches. It owns the railway estates and ranches. It owns the railway system. It owns many of the port system. It owns many of the port system. It owns many of the port facilities. So, you didn't even need an facilities. So, you didn't even need an facilities. So, you didn't even need an empire. You just need the the, you know, empire. You just need the the, you know, empire. You just need the the, you know, you need the the facilities that you need the the facilities that you need the the facilities that overseas trade and possessions can give overseas trade and possessions can give overseas trade and possessions can give you. And Britain not only has the you. And Britain not only has the you. And Britain not only has the largest navy, it also has the largest largest navy, it also has the largest largest navy, it also has the largest merchant navy, has 33% of the world's merchant navy, has 33% of the world's merchant navy, has 33% of the world's merchant shipping and access to a merchant shipping and access to a merchant shipping and access to a further 50%, you know, Greek, Norwegian, further 50%, you know, Greek, Norwegian, further 50%, you know, Greek, Norwegian, Canadian shipping that it can can Canadian shipping that it can can Canadian shipping that it can can access. So if you've got if you got access. So if you've got if you got access. So if you've got if you got access to 80 more than in in excess of access to 80 more than in in excess of access to 80 more than in in excess of 80% of the world shipping that puts you 80% of the world shipping that puts you 80% of the world shipping that puts you in an incredibly strong position and in an incredibly strong position and in an incredibly strong position and actually all sorts of other things have actually all sorts of other things have actually all sorts of other things have been going on. While they might not have been going on. While they might not have been going on. While they might not have been creating a huge army or producing been creating a huge army or producing been creating a huge army or producing enough Spitfires that they might want to enough Spitfires that they might want to enough Spitfires that they might want to up until this point what they have also up until this point what they have also up until this point what they have also been doing is stockpiling bulk site and been doing is stockpiling bulk site and been doing is stockpiling bulk site and copper and tungsten and huge reserves.

copper and tungsten and huge reserves. copper and tungsten and huge reserves. And because Britain has this huge global And because Britain has this huge global And because Britain has this huge global reach, because it has its empire and its reach, because it has its empire and its reach, because it has its empire and its extra imperial assets, it can strike extra imperial assets, it can strike extra imperial assets, it can strike bargains that no one else can strike. So bargains that no one else can strike. So bargains that no one else can strike. So it can go into various countries around it can go into various countries around it can go into various countries around the world and can go, "Okay, I want you the world and can go, "Okay, I want you the world and can go, "Okay, I want you to guarantee me for the next 5 years to guarantee me for the next 5 years to guarantee me for the next 5 years every bit of your rubber supply. I will every bit of your rubber supply. I will every bit of your rubber supply. I will pay over the over the asking price to pay over the over the asking price to pay over the over the asking price to secure that." And it's doing that in the secure that." And it's doing that in the secure that." And it's doing that in the 1930s. So when war comes, it's got 1930s. So when war comes, it's got 1930s. So when war comes, it's got everything it possibly needs. Now you everything it possibly needs. Now you everything it possibly needs. Now you always need more because it's suddenly always need more because it's suddenly always need more because it's suddenly turning into a kind of you know a proper turning into a kind of you know a proper turning into a kind of you know a proper global long drawn out war. But but that global long drawn out war. But but that global long drawn out war. But but that is a huge advantage. So it is with that is a huge advantage. So it is with that is a huge advantage. So it is with that mindset that Chamberlain is going into mindset that Chamberlain is going into mindset that Chamberlain is going into those talks and thinking okay well I'm those talks and thinking okay well I'm those talks and thinking okay well I'm not going to get a war over the Czechov not going to get a war over the Czechov not going to get a war over the Czechov and who cares about them but and who cares about them but and who cares about them but but I am going to show Hitler that I but I am going to show Hitler that I but I am going to show Hitler that I mean business. Hitler's going who's this mean business. Hitler's going who's this mean business. Hitler's going who's this stuffy guy with his white hair? I don't stuffy guy with his white hair? I don't stuffy guy with his white hair? I don't give a toss about him. You know and it's give a toss about him. You know and it's give a toss about him. You know and it's he's coming at it from a completely he's coming at it from a completely he's coming at it from a completely different perspective. And I think one different perspective. And I think one different perspective. And I think one of the things that's so interesting from of the things that's so interesting from of the things that's so interesting from a dramatic point of view and from a from a dramatic point of view and from a from a dramatic point of view and from a from a historian's point of view or even a a historian's point of view or even a a historian's point of view or even a novelist point of view in the case of novelist point of view in the case of novelist point of view in the case of Robert Harris writing his book about Robert Harris writing his book about Robert Harris writing his book about these negotiations which I don't know if these negotiations which I don't know if these negotiations which I don't know if you've read it but it's really it's you've read it but it's really it's you've read it but it's really it's terrifically good um is the fact you've terrifically good um is the fact you've terrifically good um is the fact you've got two men two alpha males who are got two men two alpha males who are got two men two alpha males who are going to those negotiations from totally going to those negotiations from totally going to those negotiations from totally different perspectives and vantage different perspectives and vantage different perspectives and vantage points. And I think it's very easy for points. And I think it's very easy for points. And I think it's very easy for people today to forget how elevated people today to forget how elevated people today to forget how elevated Britain was in the late late 1930s. You Britain was in the late late 1930s. You Britain was in the late late 1930s. You know, the gold standard was tied to the know, the gold standard was tied to the know, the gold standard was tied to the pound, not the dollar. Um, and

pound, not the dollar. Um, and pound, not the dollar. Um, and so Britain was the number one nation in so Britain was the number one nation in so Britain was the number one nation in the world at that time and and it just the world at that time and and it just the world at that time and and it just was. And it's so diminished by was. And it's so diminished by was. And it's so diminished by comparison today that it's hard to comparison today that it's hard to comparison today that it's hard to imagine it. And I think one of the imagine it. And I think one of the imagine it. And I think one of the interesting things about the interesting things about the interesting things about the historioggraphy about the narrative of historioggraphy about the narrative of historioggraphy about the narrative of how we tell World War II is that so much how we tell World War II is that so much how we tell World War II is that so much of it has been dictated by the shift in of it has been dictated by the shift in of it has been dictated by the shift in power that took place subsequent to power that took place subsequent to power that took place subsequent to 1945. And when people were starting to 1945. And when people were starting to 1945. And when people were starting to write these sort of major narratives in write these sort of major narratives in write these sort of major narratives in the 1970s and 80s and into the 1990s is the 1970s and 80s and into the 1990s is the 1970s and 80s and into the 1990s is through a prism of a very very different through a prism of a very very different through a prism of a very very different world. And so one of the reasons why you world. And so one of the reasons why you world. And so one of the reasons why you have this narrative that that you know have this narrative that that you know have this narrative that that you know Britain was a bit rubbish and hanging on Britain was a bit rubbish and hanging on Britain was a bit rubbish and hanging on the shirt tells of the Americans and you the shirt tells of the Americans and you the shirt tells of the Americans and you know all the blood was spelt in in know all the blood was spelt in in know all the blood was spelt in in Eastern front and you know Germany had Eastern front and you know Germany had Eastern front and you know Germany had the best army in the world and was only the best army in the world and was only the best army in the world and was only defeated because Hitler was mad and blah defeated because Hitler was mad and blah defeated because Hitler was mad and blah blah blah. You know that that kind of blah blah. You know that that kind of blah blah. You know that that kind of sort of traditional narrative. It's it's sort of traditional narrative. It's it's sort of traditional narrative. It's it's that narrative emerges through the prism that narrative emerges through the prism that narrative emerges through the prism of of what was going on in the 1970s and of of what was going on in the 1970s and of of what was going on in the 1970s and what was going on in the 1980s and the what was going on in the 1980s and the what was going on in the 1980s and the changing world rather than looking at it changing world rather than looking at it changing world rather than looking at it through the prism of the late 1930s or through the prism of the late 1930s or through the prism of the late 1930s or early 1940s. So there is this moment of early 1940s. So there is this moment of early 1940s. So there is this moment of decision. When do you think what lesson decision. When do you think what lesson decision. When do you think what lesson do you take from that? When is the right do you take from that? When is the right do you take from that? When is the right time for appeasement to negotiate for time for appeasement to negotiate for time for appeasement to negotiate for diplomacy and when is the right time diplomacy and when is the right time diplomacy and when is the right time for military strength for military strength for military strength offensive attacking offensive attacking offensive attacking uh for military uh for military uh for military conflict? Where's that where's that conflict? Where's that where's that conflict? Where's that where's that line? Where's that thing? Well, I kind

line? Where's that thing? Well, I kind line? Where's that thing? Well, I kind of think it probably was when it was. I of think it probably was when it was. I of think it probably was when it was. I I mean Poland. Yeah. Honestly, I I'm not I mean Poland. Yeah. Honestly, I I'm not I mean Poland. Yeah. Honestly, I I'm not sure it would have been the right sure it would have been the right sure it would have been the right decision to go to war in 1948. I just I decision to go to war in 1948. I just I decision to go to war in 1948. I just I I think it would I I'm I can't predict I think it would I I'm I can't predict I think it would I I'm I can't predict because you can't second guess how because you can't second guess how because you can't second guess how things are going to play out because you things are going to play out because you things are going to play out because you just don't know. But but I I I'm not just don't know. But but I I I'm not just don't know. But but I I I'm not sure that Chamberlain made the wrong sure that Chamberlain made the wrong sure that Chamberlain made the wrong decision. I'm not saying he made the decision. I'm not saying he made the decision. I'm not saying he made the right decision. I'm just like I'm not right decision. I'm just like I'm not right decision. I'm just like I'm not I'm being a bit wishy-washy about this. I'm being a bit wishy-washy about this. I'm being a bit wishy-washy about this. You could have threatened it more. You could have threatened it more. You could have threatened it more. Imagine Churchill in those same Imagine Churchill in those same Imagine Churchill in those same meetings. Yeah, but but Churchill also meetings. Yeah, but but Churchill also meetings. Yeah, but but Churchill also appeases. I mean, he appeases Stalin all appeases. I mean, he appeases Stalin all appeases. I mean, he appeases Stalin all the time. I mean, you know, so the idea the time. I mean, you know, so the idea the time. I mean, you know, so the idea that Churchill's this big strong man and that Churchill's this big strong man and that Churchill's this big strong man and never appeases and, you know, he's gung never appeases and, you know, he's gung never appeases and, you know, he's gung over war. Churchill's out of the over war. Churchill's out of the over war. Churchill's out of the government at that time, he he he government at that time, he he he government at that time, he he he recognizes that you can't trust Hitler, recognizes that you can't trust Hitler, recognizes that you can't trust Hitler, he recognizes that Nazism is bad, but he he recognizes that Nazism is bad, but he he recognizes that Nazism is bad, but he because he's out of the government, he because he's out of the government, he because he's out of the government, he doesn't have a window on exactly where doesn't have a window on exactly where doesn't have a window on exactly where Britain is at that particular time in Britain is at that particular time in Britain is at that particular time in the way that Chamberlain does, you know.

the way that Chamberlain does, you know. the way that Chamberlain does, you know. So, so I suppose what I'm saying So, so I suppose what I'm saying So, so I suppose what I'm saying is Chamberlain is better placed to make is Chamberlain is better placed to make is Chamberlain is better placed to make those those those decisions than than Churchill is. Which decisions than than Churchill is. Which decisions than than Churchill is. Which again doesn't mean that Church that again doesn't mean that Church that again doesn't mean that Church that Chamberlain is right and Churchill is Chamberlain is right and Churchill is Chamberlain is right and Churchill is wrong. It's just that's a massive pump wrong. It's just that's a massive pump wrong. It's just that's a massive pump to go to war in 1938 when you still to go to war in 1938 when you still to go to war in 1938 when you still don't have, you know, you've got a don't have, you know, you've got a don't have, you know, you've got a handful of Spitfires, you've got a handful of Spitfires, you've got a handful of Spitfires, you've got a handful of huracans, you haven't got handful of huracans, you haven't got handful of huracans, you haven't got enough, you know, your air defense enough, you know, your air defense enough, you know, your air defense system isn't properly properly sorted at system isn't properly properly sorted at system isn't properly properly sorted at this point. Um, your navy is strong. this point. Um, your navy is strong. this point. Um, your navy is strong. But you know what's that going to look But you know what's that going to look But you know what's that going to look like? I like? I like? I mean, if you do go to war, there's not mean, if you do go to war, there's not mean, if you do go to war, there's not going to be armies sweeping into going to be armies sweeping into going to be armies sweeping into Germany. It's just it's going to be Germany. It's just it's going to be Germany. It's just it's going to be accelerated industrialization for a accelerated industrialization for a accelerated industrialization for a year. So, no, you know, even if you go year. So, no, you know, even if you go year. So, no, you know, even if you go to war in 1938 over Czechoslovakia, to war in 1938 over Czechoslovakia, to war in 1938 over Czechoslovakia, Czechosaka will not be saved that, you Czechosaka will not be saved that, you Czechosaka will not be saved that, you know, France and Britain will not be know, France and Britain will not be know, France and Britain will not be going and invading Germany. That, you going and invading Germany. That, you going and invading Germany. That, you know, that is absolutely not going to know, that is absolutely not going to know, that is absolutely not going to happen. So, sort of what's the point? I happen. So, sort of what's the point? I happen. So, sort of what's the point? I mean, you know, if you're not going to mean, you know, if you're not going to mean, you know, if you're not going to do that, why didn't you accelerate your do that, why didn't you accelerate your do that, why didn't you accelerate your rearmament thereafter? Get your ducks in rearmament thereafter? Get your ducks in rearmament thereafter? Get your ducks in a row and then you can consider it. I a row and then you can consider it. I a row and then you can consider it. I mean, after all, you know, even in se mean, after all, you know, even in se mean, after all, you know, even in se September 1949, they don't really do September 1949, they don't really do September 1949, they don't really do anything. I mean, we talked about the anything. I mean, we talked about the anything. I mean, we talked about the kind of the SAR offensive, which isn't kind of the SAR offensive, which isn't kind of the SAR offensive, which isn't really an offensive at all. It's firing really an offensive at all. It's firing really an offensive at all. It's firing a one round of machine gun and scuttling a one round of machine gun and scuttling a one round of machine gun and scuttling back again. But, I mean, they don't even back again. But, I mean, they don't even back again. But, I mean, they don't even do that then, though. They're still do that then, though. They're still do that then, though. They're still buying time in 1949. And you know, buying time in 1949. And you know, buying time in 1949. And you know, Britain is only just about ready to take Britain is only just about ready to take Britain is only just about ready to take on the onslaught of the Luftwaffer in on the onslaught of the Luftwaffer in on the onslaught of the Luftwaffer in summer of 1940. Well, nobody's ready for

summer of 1940. Well, nobody's ready for summer of 1940. Well, nobody's ready for war. No. And you always want more than war. No. And you always want more than war. No. And you always want more than you've got at any time, even when you're you've got at any time, even when you're you've got at any time, even when you're winning. But like really not ready. Even winning. But like really not ready. Even winning. But like really not ready. Even like like you mentioned with with Barbar like like you mentioned with with Barbar like like you mentioned with with Barbar Roa, Dasi Germany's really not ready. Roa, Dasi Germany's really not ready. Roa, Dasi Germany's really not ready. Not ready. Nobody's really except Not ready. Nobody's really except Not ready. Nobody's really except France. I swear. France. France have France. I swear. France. France have France. I swear. France. France have radios. Fine. But come on. Come on. When radios. Fine. But come on. Come on. When radios. Fine. But come on. Come on. When when uh when Nazi Germany invades when uh when Nazi Germany invades when uh when Nazi Germany invades Poland, I mean, yeah, it's terrible. Poland, I mean, yeah, it's terrible. Poland, I mean, yeah, it's terrible. It's terrible because I'm absolutely I I It's terrible because I'm absolutely I I It's terrible because I'm absolutely I I also do think that had France gone in in also do think that had France gone in in also do think that had France gone in in some force with some British troops as some force with some British troops as some force with some British troops as well, had they gone in, what would have well, had they gone in, what would have well, had they gone in, what would have happened is is that would have just that happened is is that would have just that happened is is that would have just that easily could have brought down Hitler easily could have brought down Hitler easily could have brought down Hitler because most of his commanders are his because most of his commanders are his because most of his commanders are his senior commanders are just thinking, senior commanders are just thinking, senior commanders are just thinking, "What the hell is going on? This is a "What the hell is going on? This is a "What the hell is going on? This is a catastrophe." I mean to a man I mean catastrophe." I mean to a man I mean catastrophe." I mean to a man I mean even Guring is thinking this is a even Guring is thinking this is a even Guring is thinking this is a terrible terrible terrible idea they are absolutely not convinced idea they are absolutely not convinced idea they are absolutely not convinced and when Hitler does his big talk to his and when Hitler does his big talk to his and when Hitler does his big talk to his his um he asked all his senior his um he asked all his senior his um he asked all his senior commanders to come to the burgov to commanders to come to the burgov to commanders to come to the burgov to brief them about the invasion of brief them about the invasion of brief them about the invasion of Poland it's just after the ribbon trough Poland it's just after the ribbon trough Poland it's just after the ribbon trough molotov pact of the 22nd of August go he molotov pact of the 22nd of August go he molotov pact of the 22nd of August go he he calls them all to Burgoff and says he calls them all to Burgoff and says he calls them all to Burgoff and says come in you know come in mufty come in come in you know come in mufty come in come in you know come in mufty come in civilian suits they all turn up and he civilian suits they all turn up and he civilian suits they all turn up and he gives them this kind of huge great gives them this kind of huge great gives them this kind of huge great speech and says this is the moment this speech and says this is the moment this speech and says this is the moment this is this is the time this what we're is this is the time this what we're is this is the time this what we're going to do and they're all going what?

going to do and they're all going what? going to do and they're all going what? You're kidding me. What? We're going to You're kidding me. What? We're going to You're kidding me. What? We're going to Poland in, you know, on the 26th of Poland in, you know, on the 26th of Poland in, you know, on the 26th of August. That's the plan. Like two days August. That's the plan. Like two days August. That's the plan. Like two days time, you know, where's the plan? time, you know, where's the plan? time, you know, where's the plan? Where's the, you know, the whole point Where's the, you know, the whole point Where's the, you know, the whole point is that, you know, they're they're is that, you know, they're they're is that, you know, they're they're emerging and growing militarily, but emerging and growing militarily, but emerging and growing militarily, but they were supposed to have all these they were supposed to have all these they were supposed to have all these exercises where they, you know, exercises where they, you know, exercises where they, you know, coordinating ground forces, you know, coordinating ground forces, you know, coordinating ground forces, you know, the Panza spearhead with operations in the Panza spearhead with operations in the Panza spearhead with operations in the air with the Luftwaffer. None of the air with the Luftwaffer. None of the air with the Luftwaffer. None of that happens. So Poland becomes the that happens. So Poland becomes the that happens. So Poland becomes the proving ground. And actually they proving ground. And actually they proving ground. And actually they discover that there's lots of things discover that there's lots of things discover that there's lots of things that don't work and lots of things that that don't work and lots of things that that don't work and lots of things that are wrong. Um but but but you know it are wrong. Um but but but you know it are wrong. Um but but but you know it it's flying in the face of all it's flying in the face of all it's flying in the face of all convention military convention that that convention military convention that that convention military convention that that they you know he does this without any they you know he does this without any they you know he does this without any kind of warning and even by the first of kind of warning and even by the first of kind of warning and even by the first of September where there's been this kind September where there's been this kind September where there's been this kind of sort of 5-day delay of sort of 5-day delay of sort of 5-day delay um at the last minute negotiations. the um at the last minute negotiations. the um at the last minute negotiations. the last minute negotiations are thrust upon last minute negotiations are thrust upon last minute negotiations are thrust upon Hitler by people like Guring and by Hitler by people like Guring and by Hitler by people like Guring and by Mussolini and and the Italians going oh Mussolini and and the Italians going oh Mussolini and and the Italians going oh my god don't do this don't do this you my god don't do this don't do this you my god don't do this don't do this you know there's got to be a know there's got to be a know there's got to be a solution's absolutely chomping at the solution's absolutely chomping at the solution's absolutely chomping at the bit well in that case from a dark bit well in that case from a dark bit well in that case from a dark militaristic militaristic militaristic perspective his bet paid off well except perspective his bet paid off well except perspective his bet paid off well except that it ended in ruins in May 1945 with that it ended in ruins in May 1945 with that it ended in ruins in May 1945 with total collapse of Germany so you could total collapse of Germany so you could total collapse of Germany so you could say the worst decision he ever made was say the worst decision he ever made was say the worst decision he ever made was going into Poland and September 1939.

going into Poland and September 1939. going into Poland and September 1939. Depends where you look at it. But I Depends where you look at it. But I Depends where you look at it. But I mean, yes, you know, it's successful in mean, yes, you know, it's successful in mean, yes, you know, it's successful in that, you know, Poland's overrun in 18 that, you know, Poland's overrun in 18 that, you know, Poland's overrun in 18 days. And there's there's so many days. And there's there's so many days. And there's there's so many counterfactuals here. But I mean, if you counterfactuals here. But I mean, if you counterfactuals here. But I mean, if you would say to Hitler on the 30th of would say to Hitler on the 30th of would say to Hitler on the 30th of April, you know, is he's sort of taking April, you know, is he's sort of taking April, you know, is he's sort of taking out the pistol from his holster on his out the pistol from his holster on his out the pistol from his holster on his sofa in the in the fur bunk and going, sofa in the in the fur bunk and going, sofa in the in the fur bunk and going, you know, so Adolf 1st of September you know, so Adolf 1st of September you know, so Adolf 1st of September 1949. Still backing himself on that one? 1949. Still backing himself on that one? 1949. Still backing himself on that one? I mean, he might might have a different I mean, he might might have a different I mean, he might might have a different view. The guy's insane and full of view. The guy's insane and full of view. The guy's insane and full of blunder. So, he probably would have blunder. So, he probably would have blunder. So, he probably would have said, "Yeah, do it all over again." said, "Yeah, do it all over again." said, "Yeah, do it all over again." Yeah, I'm sure he would have done as Yeah, I'm sure he would have done as Yeah, I'm sure he would have done as well. well. well. Conquest. Poland was not a mistake. Conquest. Poland was not a mistake. Conquest. Poland was not a mistake. Soviet Union was not a mistake. It's Soviet Union was not a mistake. It's Soviet Union was not a mistake. It's just some of the other people I was let just some of the other people I was let just some of the other people I was let down by by people not being strong down by by people not being strong down by by people not being strong enough. Yeah. The Prussian generals are enough. Yeah. The Prussian generals are enough. Yeah. The Prussian generals are all Yeah. Yeah. Of course. That's all Yeah. Yeah. Of course. That's all Yeah. Yeah. Of course. That's exactly what he'd say. Wasn't my fault. exactly what he'd say. Wasn't my fault. exactly what he'd say. Wasn't my fault. He might have uh quietly done some He might have uh quietly done some He might have uh quietly done some different decisions about Barbar Roa. different decisions about Barbar Roa. different decisions about Barbar Roa. Maybe the timing would be different. Maybe the timing would be different. Maybe the timing would be different. Maybe that all out central for us rather Maybe that all out central for us rather Maybe that all out central for us rather than kind of splitting into three. Yeah. than kind of splitting into three. Yeah. than kind of splitting into three. Yeah. Yeah. But he was very sure it seems like Yeah. But he was very sure it seems like Yeah. But he was very sure it seems like maybe you can correct me that Britain maybe you can correct me that Britain maybe you can correct me that Britain and France would still carry on with and France would still carry on with and France would still carry on with appeasement even after he invaded appeasement even after he invaded appeasement even after he invaded Poland. Absolutely. He he was completely Poland. Absolutely. He he was completely Poland. Absolutely. He he was completely convinced by it. There was clearly a convinced by it. There was clearly a convinced by it. There was clearly a kind of sort of 10 to 15% level of kind of sort of 10 to 15% level of kind of sort of 10 to 15% level of doubt, but what the heck, I'm gonna do doubt, but what the heck, I'm gonna do doubt, but what the heck, I'm gonna do it anyway. He was just he ratcheted it anyway. He was just he ratcheted it anyway. He was just he ratcheted himself up into such a lav of of kind of himself up into such a lav of of kind of himself up into such a lav of of kind of this is the moment. I have to do it now.

this is the moment. I have to do it now. this is the moment. I have to do it now. This is fate. I'm 50 and and you know I This is fate. I'm 50 and and you know I This is fate. I'm 50 and and you know I could be taken out by an assassin's could be taken out by an assassin's could be taken out by an assassin's bullet. I've got this important life's bullet. I've got this important life's bullet. I've got this important life's work that I've got to do. We've got to work that I've got to do. We've got to work that I've got to do. We've got to get on with it now. There could be no get on with it now. There could be no get on with it now. There could be no more delay. This is my mission. You more delay. This is my mission. You more delay. This is my mission. You know, this is our mission of the German know, this is our mission of the German know, this is our mission of the German people. And either the German people people. And either the German people people. And either the German people have got the will and the and the spirit have got the will and the and the spirit have got the will and the and the spirit to be able to pull it off or you know I to be able to pull it off or you know I to be able to pull it off or you know I was wrong and and therefore you know we was wrong and and therefore you know we was wrong and and therefore you know we don't deserve to be a thousand right we don't deserve to be a thousand right we don't deserve to be a thousand right we don't deserve to be the master race don't deserve to be the master race don't deserve to be the master race black or white us or them either or it's black or white us or them either or it's black or white us or them either or it's same all the time so can you tell the same all the time so can you tell the same all the time so can you tell the story of the moltov ribbon trope pact story of the moltov ribbon trope pact story of the moltov ribbon trope pact 1939 so they make an agreement Nazi 1939 so they make an agreement Nazi 1939 so they make an agreement Nazi Germany the Soviet Union and that leads Germany the Soviet Union and that leads Germany the Soviet Union and that leads us just like you mentioned in a matter us just like you mentioned in a matter us just like you mentioned in a matter of days. Yeah. How compact everything of days. Yeah. How compact everything of days. Yeah. How compact everything is. It's just really, really is. It's just really, really is. It's just really, really fascinating. It's a beautiful summer in fascinating. It's a beautiful summer in fascinating. It's a beautiful summer in Europe. Summer of 1949, you know, it's Europe. Summer of 1949, you know, it's Europe. Summer of 1949, you know, it's one of these glorious summers that sort one of these glorious summers that sort one of these glorious summers that sort of never rains. It's of never rains. It's of never rains. It's just sunshine, sunny day after sunny just sunshine, sunny day after sunny just sunshine, sunny day after sunny day. It's kind of, you know, it's like day. It's kind of, you know, it's like day. It's kind of, you know, it's like that sort of golden summer of 1914 as that sort of golden summer of 1914 as that sort of golden summer of 1914 as well, you know, where sky always seems well, you know, where sky always seems well, you know, where sky always seems to be blue, fluffy white clouds, to be blue, fluffy white clouds, to be blue, fluffy white clouds, everyone's sort of, you know, but this everyone's sort of, you know, but this everyone's sort of, you know, but this sort of the storm clouds of war, to use sort of the storm clouds of war, to use sort of the storm clouds of war, to use that cliche, are kind of that cliche, are kind of that cliche, are kind of brewing. The Russians have have reached brewing. The Russians have have reached brewing. The Russians have have reached out to Britain and France and said, out to Britain and France and said, out to Britain and France and said, "Come, come on over. Let's negotiate, "Come, come on over. Let's negotiate, "Come, come on over. Let's negotiate, you know, let's see what we can do." Um, you know, let's see what we can do." Um, you know, let's see what we can do." Um, and there is just no stomach for that at and there is just no stomach for that at and there is just no stomach for that at all. I I mean if ever there is a I think all. I I mean if ever there is a I think all. I I mean if ever there is a I think a mistake that's Britain and France

a mistake that's Britain and France a mistake that's Britain and France should have been a bit more into real should have been a bit more into real should have been a bit more into real politics politics politics and than they were that it's such an and than they were that it's such an and than they were that it's such an opportunity to to ensure that you to opportunity to to ensure that you to opportunity to to ensure that you to snooker the Third Reich and and they snooker the Third Reich and and they snooker the Third Reich and and they don't take it. Um because you know in don't take it. Um because you know in don't take it. Um because you know in many ways they see the westward spread many ways they see the westward spread many ways they see the westward spread of communism in exactly the same way of communism in exactly the same way of communism in exactly the same way that the Nazis see the threat of the that the Nazis see the threat of the that the Nazis see the threat of the westward spread of communism as westward spread of communism as westward spread of communism as something that's every bit as repellent something that's every bit as repellent something that's every bit as repellent as Nazism and and they don't want to be as Nazism and and they don't want to be as Nazism and and they don't want to be getting into bed with these guys. Um of getting into bed with these guys. Um of getting into bed with these guys. Um of course they kind of have to kind of course they kind of have to kind of course they kind of have to kind of change tack on that one in summer of change tack on that one in summer of change tack on that one in summer of 1941 in you know very quick order. Um 1941 in you know very quick order. Um 1941 in you know very quick order. Um and that's the whole point about and that's the whole point about and that's the whole point about Churchill appeasing Stalin. I mean, you Churchill appeasing Stalin. I mean, you Churchill appeasing Stalin. I mean, you know, it's all very well people saying, know, it's all very well people saying, know, it's all very well people saying, well, you know, Churchill wouldn't have well, you know, Churchill wouldn't have well, you know, Churchill wouldn't have appeased Hitler in the 1930s, but he appeased Hitler in the 1930s, but he appeased Hitler in the 1930s, but he does appease. He appeases all the time. does appease. He appeases all the time. does appease. He appeases all the time. Um, and they miss that opportunity. And Um, and they miss that opportunity. And Um, and they miss that opportunity. And the and the the French and British the and the the French and British the and the the French and British delegation is third tier commanders, delegation is third tier commanders, delegation is third tier commanders, generals going over. It's it's a it's a generals going over. It's it's a it's a generals going over. It's it's a it's a you know, it's a shit show. I mean, it you know, it's a shit show. I mean, it you know, it's a shit show. I mean, it Yeah, excuse my French, but I mean, it's Yeah, excuse my French, but I mean, it's Yeah, excuse my French, but I mean, it's just it's it's it's a nonsense that just it's it's it's a nonsense that just it's it's it's a nonsense that they're not ready for it. They're not they're not ready for it. They're not they're not ready for it. They're not prepared. the British guy, um, Admiral prepared. the British guy, um, Admiral prepared. the British guy, um, Admiral Drax, doesn't have any authority. Um, Drax, doesn't have any authority. Um, Drax, doesn't have any authority. Um, the whole thing is a complete joke. It's the whole thing is a complete joke. It's the whole thing is a complete joke. It's it's never going to get anywhere. You it's never going to get anywhere. You it's never going to get anywhere. You tell the story of this quite tell the story of this quite tell the story of this quite beautifully, actually. Uh, again, it's beautifully, actually. Uh, again, it's beautifully, actually. Uh, again, it's such a human story. I mean, the it seems such a human story. I mean, the it seems such a human story. I mean, the it seems like the Stalin and Soviet, they've like the Stalin and Soviet, they've like the Stalin and Soviet, they've already made up their mind. But I don't already made up their mind. But I don't already made up their mind. But I don't think they have. I think what they Wait, think they have. I think what they Wait, think they have. I think what they Wait, wait, wait. I mean, you described quite

wait, wait. I mean, you described quite wait, wait. I mean, you described quite well that that they value in-person well that that they value in-person well that that they value in-person meeting. Yes. So, like Chamberlain meeting. Yes. So, like Chamberlain meeting. Yes. So, like Chamberlain should have just gone to Moscow. Yeah. should have just gone to Moscow. Yeah. should have just gone to Moscow. Yeah. Get on a plane. Like it I it's such a Get on a plane. Like it I it's such a Get on a plane. Like it I it's such a uh maybe it's a simplistic notion, but uh maybe it's a simplistic notion, but uh maybe it's a simplistic notion, but that could have changed the trajectory that could have changed the trajectory that could have changed the trajectory of human history right there. I really of human history right there. I really of human history right there. I really think it could have done. I think that think it could have done. I think that think it could have done. I think that was I think that's I think that's much was I think that's I think that's much was I think that's I think that's much more grievous mistake than than than more grievous mistake than than than more grievous mistake than than than Munich. Why are leaders so hesitant to Munich. Why are leaders so hesitant to Munich. Why are leaders so hesitant to meet? I I I'm told now by a bunch of meet? I I I'm told now by a bunch of meet? I I I'm told now by a bunch of diplomats that no no no no no there's a diplomats that no no no no no there's a diplomats that no no no no no there's a process you know first you have to have process you know first you have to have process you know first you have to have these diplomats meet and they have to these diplomats meet and they have to these diplomats meet and they have to draft a bunch of stuff and I sometimes draft a bunch of stuff and I sometimes draft a bunch of stuff and I sometimes have this simplistic notion have this simplistic notion have this simplistic notion like why not why not meet why not meet like why not why not meet why not meet like why not why not meet why not meet like I think there is a human element like I think there is a human element like I think there is a human element there um of course especially when there um of course especially when there um of course especially when there's there's there's this force that is Hitler well yes and this force that is Hitler well yes and this force that is Hitler well yes and because we humans we like to interact because we humans we like to interact because we humans we like to interact and and you like to see people in three and and you like to see people in three and and you like to see people in three dimensions and you know I'm sure it's dimensions and you know I'm sure it's dimensions and you know I'm sure it's why you always quite rightly insist on why you always quite rightly insist on why you always quite rightly insist on doing your podcast face to face cuz you doing your podcast face to face cuz you doing your podcast face to face cuz you want to get the cut of someone's chip want to get the cut of someone's chip want to get the cut of someone's chip and you want to be able to see them and and you want to be able to see them and and you want to be able to see them and and you want to see the intonation in and you want to see the intonation in and you want to see the intonation in their expression and the whites of their their expression and the whites of their their expression and the whites of their eyes and all that kind of stuff. And eyes and all that kind of stuff. And eyes and all that kind of stuff. And that that just does make a difference of that that just does make a difference of that that just does make a difference of course because you know we're course because you know we're course because you know we're fundamentally animals and we kind of we fundamentally animals and we kind of we fundamentally animals and we kind of we we want to be sizing people up and it's we want to be sizing people up and it's we want to be sizing people up and it's much easier to do that when you're a few much easier to do that when you're a few much easier to do that when you're a few feet away from each other than it is on

feet away from each other than it is on feet away from each other than it is on a video screen or through the prism of a video screen or through the prism of a video screen or through the prism of someone else. Yeah. But there's also someone else. Yeah. But there's also someone else. Yeah. But there's also just you see the the humanity in in just you see the the humanity in in just you see the the humanity in in others. It's so much easier this you see others. It's so much easier this you see others. It's so much easier this you see this in social media. It's so much this in social media. It's so much this in social media. It's so much easier to talk shit about others when easier to talk shit about others when easier to talk shit about others when you're not with them. Yes. and and like you're not with them. Yes. and and like you're not with them. Yes. and and like military conflict is the extreme version military conflict is the extreme version military conflict is the extreme version of that. You can construct these of that. You can construct these of that. You can construct these narratives that they're not human, that narratives that they're not human, that narratives that they're not human, that they're evil, that they're you can they're evil, that they're you can they're evil, that they're you can construct a communist ideology, all construct a communist ideology, all construct a communist ideology, all these you can project onto them the these you can project onto them the these you can project onto them the worst possible worst possible worst possible uh version uh version uh version what of a human. But when you meet them, what of a human. But when you meet them, what of a human. But when you meet them, you're like, "Oh, they are just a you're like, "Oh, they are just a you're like, "Oh, they are just a person. They're just a person." Well, person. They're just a person." Well, person. They're just a person." Well, it's the world's great tragedy that that it's the world's great tragedy that that it's the world's great tragedy that that that it's only a few people that want to that it's only a few people that want to that it's only a few people that want to go to war and the vast majority want to go to war and the vast majority want to go to war and the vast majority want to live happily contented lives getting on live happily contented lives getting on live happily contented lives getting on with their neighbors. I mean, it has with their neighbors. I mean, it has with their neighbors. I mean, it has been ever thus. It's just it is those been ever thus. It's just it is those been ever thus. It's just it is those few that kind of ruin it for everybody few that kind of ruin it for everybody few that kind of ruin it for everybody else. But but but anyway, to go back to else. But but but anyway, to go back to else. But but but anyway, to go back to Leningrad um back in August 1939, they Leningrad um back in August 1939, they Leningrad um back in August 1939, they go halfcock. They're disrespectful to go halfcock. They're disrespectful to go halfcock. They're disrespectful to Soviet Union as a result of that. Um it Soviet Union as a result of that. Um it Soviet Union as a result of that. Um it gets nowhere. Had they been able to put gets nowhere. Had they been able to put gets nowhere. Had they been able to put on a really really firm offer there and on a really really firm offer there and on a really really firm offer there and then to the Soviet Union, Soviet Union then to the Soviet Union, Soviet Union then to the Soviet Union, Soviet Union would have would have probably come in.

would have would have probably come in. would have would have probably come in. I mean, the big thing is is that the I mean, the big thing is is that the I mean, the big thing is is that the Soviet Union said, "This is a big Soviet Union said, "This is a big Soviet Union said, "This is a big stumbling block." The Soviet Union said, stumbling block." The Soviet Union said, stumbling block." The Soviet Union said, "Yeah, but we want to be able to march "Yeah, but we want to be able to march "Yeah, but we want to be able to march through Poland if we get threatened by through Poland if we get threatened by through Poland if we get threatened by Germany." Mhm. Both the British and the Germany." Mhm. Both the British and the Germany." Mhm. Both the British and the French just smell a massive rat there. French just smell a massive rat there. French just smell a massive rat there. They're basically saying, you know, if They're basically saying, you know, if They're basically saying, you know, if they agree to that, what they're what they agree to that, what they're what they agree to that, what they're what they fear is that Soviet Union will just they fear is that Soviet Union will just they fear is that Soviet Union will just march into Poland and go, "Yeah, but you march into Poland and go, "Yeah, but you march into Poland and go, "Yeah, but you said we could and take it." Which they said we could and take it." Which they said we could and take it." Which they unquestionably would have done, but it unquestionably would have done, but it unquestionably would have done, but it would have stopped the World War would have stopped the World War would have stopped the World War probably. They're willing to appease probably. They're willing to appease probably. They're willing to appease Hitler. They're not willing to appease Hitler. They're not willing to appease Hitler. They're not willing to appease Stalin in that situation. Well, they're Stalin in that situation. Well, they're Stalin in that situation. Well, they're not willing to appease anybody by that not willing to appease anybody by that not willing to appease anybody by that stage. That's the point. Well, they stage. That's the point. Well, they stage. That's the point. Well, they appeased Hitler because they did for the appeased Hitler because they did for the appeased Hitler because they did for the year before, but there now there's a year before, but there now there's a year before, but there now there's a bottom line, you know, which is which is bottom line, you know, which is which is bottom line, you know, which is which is Poland, you know. So, it's changed. Poland, you know. So, it's changed. Poland, you know. So, it's changed. That's why right but anyway the bottom That's why right but anyway the bottom That's why right but anyway the bottom line is they don't you know there is a line is they don't you know there is a line is they don't you know there is a there is a a reluctance on the part of there is a a reluctance on the part of there is a a reluctance on the part of French and the British to negotiate with French and the British to negotiate with French and the British to negotiate with the Soviet Union because they're the Soviet Union because they're the Soviet Union because they're communists don't like them don't trust communists don't like them don't trust communists don't like them don't trust them worry about what they're going to them worry about what they're going to them worry about what they're going to do with Poland and they're going to be do with Poland and they're going to be do with Poland and they're going to be you know jumping out of the fire into you know jumping out of the fire into you know jumping out of the fire into the kind of water and it doesn't come the kind of water and it doesn't come the kind of water and it doesn't come off and as a consequence of that Soviet off and as a consequence of that Soviet off and as a consequence of that Soviet Union continue to pursue more hardly you Union continue to pursue more hardly you Union continue to pursue more hardly you know um more more viciferously know um more more viciferously know um more more viciferously the opportunities that the um that the the opportunities that the um that the the opportunities that the um that the Germans are offering which is this split Germans are offering which is this split Germans are offering which is this split of of of Poland cuz Soviet Union wants that part Poland cuz Soviet Union wants that part Poland cuz Soviet Union wants that part of Poland back in its own sphere of of Poland back in its own sphere of of Poland back in its own sphere of influence and it doesn't want to go to influence and it doesn't want to go to influence and it doesn't want to go to war just yet and the agreement that they

war just yet and the agreement that they war just yet and the agreement that they won't attack each other essentially. won't attack each other essentially. won't attack each other essentially. Yeah. Do you think Stalin actually Yeah. Do you think Stalin actually Yeah. Do you think Stalin actually believed that? No, he believed it in the believed that? No, he believed it in the believed that? No, he believed it in the same way that Hitler believed it that it same way that Hitler believed it that it same way that Hitler believed it that it was a cynical kind of, you know, was a cynical kind of, you know, was a cynical kind of, you know, convenient bit of real politic for now. convenient bit of real politic for now. convenient bit of real politic for now. I mean, I I think Soviet Union was as I mean, I I think Soviet Union was as I mean, I I think Soviet Union was as determined to get rid of the Nazis as determined to get rid of the Nazis as determined to get rid of the Nazis as the Nazis were determined to get rid of the Nazis were determined to get rid of the Nazis were determined to get rid of the Soviet Union. I think whoever fired the Soviet Union. I think whoever fired the Soviet Union. I think whoever fired first was not not decided at that point. first was not not decided at that point. first was not not decided at that point. But I do think from the moment that But I do think from the moment that But I do think from the moment that Hiller takes power in 1943, a conflict Hiller takes power in 1943, a conflict Hiller takes power in 1943, a conflict between Soviet Union, Nazi Germany is between Soviet Union, Nazi Germany is between Soviet Union, Nazi Germany is inevitable. Yeah. So either direction inevitable. Yeah. So either direction inevitable. Yeah. So either direction you think it's inevitable. Yeah, I think you think it's inevitable. Yeah, I think you think it's inevitable. Yeah, I think I think there's Yeah, there's a huge I think there's Yeah, there's a huge I think there's Yeah, there's a huge amount of evidence for that. Stalin amount of evidence for that. Stalin amount of evidence for that. Stalin probably wanted it what, like in 42 43? probably wanted it what, like in 42 43? probably wanted it what, like in 42 43? Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And you Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And you Yeah, something like that. Yeah. And you know, they're doing exercises and stuff know, they're doing exercises and stuff know, they're doing exercises and stuff and building out. He's not ready yet and building out. He's not ready yet and building out. He's not ready yet because he knows he's done the purges because he knows he's done the purges because he knows he's done the purges and he's got to get his his army, you and he's got to get his his army, you and he's got to get his his army, you know, he's got to get his armed forces know, he's got to get his armed forces know, he's got to get his armed forces back into shape and all the rest of it, back into shape and all the rest of it, back into shape and all the rest of it, but you know, so they have this but you know, so they have this but you know, so they have this incredibly cynical agreement, but at incredibly cynical agreement, but at incredibly cynical agreement, but at that point, you know, Hitler's hands are that point, you know, Hitler's hands are that point, you know, Hitler's hands are untied. You know, he no longer has to untied. You know, he no longer has to untied. You know, he no longer has to worry about about the threat from the worry about about the threat from the worry about about the threat from the Soviet Union. um he's got car plans to Soviet Union. um he's got car plans to Soviet Union. um he's got car plans to go into Poland and he doesn't believe go into Poland and he doesn't believe go into Poland and he doesn't believe that France and Britain are going to go that France and Britain are going to go that France and Britain are going to go to war over Poland. He's wrong about to war over Poland. He's wrong about to war over Poland. He's wrong about that obviously but but but France and that obviously but but but France and that obviously but but but France and Britain despite going to war with him Britain despite going to war with him Britain despite going to war with him still do nothing. So you know he's got still do nothing. So you know he's got still do nothing. So you know he's got away with it. Who was Churchill and how away with it. Who was Churchill and how away with it. Who was Churchill and how did Churchill come to power at this did Churchill come to power at this did Churchill come to power at this moment? Well Churchill is this moment? Well Churchill is this moment? Well Churchill is this absolutely towering figure in British absolutely towering figure in British absolutely towering figure in British politics. you know, who's been, you politics. you know, who's been, you politics. you know, who's been, you know, first a minister in the kind of know, first a minister in the kind of know, first a minister in the kind of naughties of the 20th century and the naughties of the 20th century and the naughties of the 20th century and the first years of of the 20th century. Um,

first years of of the 20th century. Um, first years of of the 20th century. Um, first of the Liberals, then of the first of the Liberals, then of the first of the Liberals, then of the Conservatives. He's a former chancellor Conservatives. He's a former chancellor Conservatives. He's a former chancellor um um of the Jacka. Um he's a towering um um of the Jacka. Um he's a towering um um of the Jacka. Um he's a towering figure, but he's been in the wilderness figure, but he's been in the wilderness figure, but he's been in the wilderness because he's out of favor with the because he's out of favor with the because he's out of favor with the Stanley Baldwin government. um he's out Stanley Baldwin government. um he's out Stanley Baldwin government. um he's out of favor with with with Chamberlain, but of favor with with with Chamberlain, but of favor with with with Chamberlain, but he is this towering figure and he has he is this towering figure and he has he is this towering figure and he has been very outspoken as a backbencher, been very outspoken as a backbencher, been very outspoken as a backbencher, which basically means, you know, you're which basically means, you know, you're which basically means, you know, you're not a minister, you're not in the not a minister, you're not in the not a minister, you're not in the cabinet, you're just an ordinary member cabinet, you're just an ordinary member cabinet, you're just an ordinary member of parliament, but obviously you're an of parliament, but obviously you're an of parliament, but obviously you're an ordinary member of parliament, but ordinary member of parliament, but ordinary member of parliament, but you're also an ordinary member of you're also an ordinary member of you're also an ordinary member of parliament who has had ministries of parliament who has had ministries of parliament who has had ministries of state and who is this tyran figure. So, state and who is this tyran figure. So, state and who is this tyran figure. So, he's listened to in a way that other he's listened to in a way that other he's listened to in a way that other backbenches aren't. Um, and he has been backbenches aren't. Um, and he has been backbenches aren't. Um, and he has been saying, you know, we need to stand up to saying, you know, we need to stand up to saying, you know, we need to stand up to the dictators. We need to do this. um we the dictators. We need to do this. um we the dictators. We need to do this. um we need to rearm more more heavily uh and need to rearm more more heavily uh and need to rearm more more heavily uh and blah blah blah. So when war is declared blah blah blah. So when war is declared blah blah blah. So when war is declared he's brought back into the admiral um in he's brought back into the admiral um in he's brought back into the admiral um in charge of the navy which is Britain's charge of the navy which is Britain's charge of the navy which is Britain's senior service and um suddenly he's senior service and um suddenly he's senior service and um suddenly he's there and what happens is Britain there and what happens is Britain there and what happens is Britain doesn't really do anything. It's very doesn't really do anything. It's very doesn't really do anything. It's very difficult working with France because difficult working with France because difficult working with France because France is so politically fractured that France is so politically fractured that France is so politically fractured that they can't make any decisions and when they can't make any decisions and when they can't make any decisions and when you can't make any decisions you're just you can't make any decisions you're just you can't make any decisions you're just impotent. Um and so Churchill first impotent. Um and so Churchill first impotent. Um and so Churchill first mentions going into Norway mining the mentions going into Norway mining the mentions going into Norway mining the leads. So um the idea is that you're leads. So um the idea is that you're leads. So um the idea is that you're making life very difficult for the making life very difficult for the making life very difficult for the Germans to get iron ore out of Sweden.

Germans to get iron ore out of Sweden. Germans to get iron ore out of Sweden. Their main their main source of iron ore Their main their main source of iron ore Their main their main source of iron ore is up in the northern part of Sweden in is up in the northern part of Sweden in is up in the northern part of Sweden in the Arctic Circle. It then goes on a the Arctic Circle. It then goes on a the Arctic Circle. It then goes on a railway through northern tip of Norway railway through northern tip of Norway railway through northern tip of Norway and then gets shipped down the um west and then gets shipped down the um west and then gets shipped down the um west coast of Norway into Germany into the coast of Norway into Germany into the coast of Norway into Germany into the Baltic. So, uh, Churchill suggests in Baltic. So, uh, Churchill suggests in Baltic. So, uh, Churchill suggests in September 1949, why don't we mine the September 1949, why don't we mine the September 1949, why don't we mine the leads, which are the leads are these leads, which are the leads are these leads, which are the leads are these passageways, um, out of the fjords and passageways, um, out of the fjords and passageways, um, out of the fjords and the in the north into the, uh, into the the in the north into the, uh, into the the in the north into the, uh, into the North Sea. Why don't we mine those and North Sea. Why don't we mine those and North Sea. Why don't we mine those and stop the Germans from from from, um, stop the Germans from from from, um, stop the Germans from from from, um, taking this. Everyone goes, "Well, yeah, taking this. Everyone goes, "Well, yeah, taking this. Everyone goes, "Well, yeah, that's quite a good idea, but they can't that's quite a good idea, but they can't that's quite a good idea, but they can't decide." And French are nervous that if decide." And French are nervous that if decide." And French are nervous that if they do that, the Germans retaliate and they do that, the Germans retaliate and they do that, the Germans retaliate and bomb France and all this kind of stuff. bomb France and all this kind of stuff. bomb France and all this kind of stuff. So, no decision is made until kind of So, no decision is made until kind of So, no decision is made until kind of April 19 1940. April 19 1940. April 19 1940. They go up to start mining the leads on They go up to start mining the leads on They go up to start mining the leads on exactly the same day that the Germans exactly the same day that the Germans exactly the same day that the Germans invade Denmark and and Norway and and so invade Denmark and and Norway and and so invade Denmark and and Norway and and so they're they're caught off guards. And they're they're caught off guards. And they're they're caught off guards. And at that moment really it's seen as a at that moment really it's seen as a at that moment really it's seen as a failure of Chamberlain's government. And failure of Chamberlain's government. And failure of Chamberlain's government. And there is a kind of a mounting there is a kind of a mounting there is a kind of a mounting realization that no matter how good he realization that no matter how good he realization that no matter how good he was or competent he was as a peaceime was or competent he was as a peaceime was or competent he was as a peaceime prime minister. He's not a wartime prime prime minister. He's not a wartime prime prime minister. He's not a wartime prime minister. You know, he's not served in minister. You know, he's not served in minister. You know, he's not served in the armed forces himself. He doesn't the armed forces himself. He doesn't the armed forces himself. He doesn't really understand it. It needs a really understand it. It needs a really understand it. It needs a different set of hands. And um his different set of hands. And um his different set of hands. And um his government falls on the 9th of May. it government falls on the 9th of May. it government falls on the 9th of May. it becomes inevitable that he's going to becomes inevitable that he's going to becomes inevitable that he's going to have to resign and the obvious person to have to resign and the obvious person to have to resign and the obvious person to take his place is Lord Halifax who is in take his place is Lord Halifax who is in take his place is Lord Halifax who is in the House of Lords but you can still be the House of Lords but you can still be the House of Lords but you can still be a prime minister and um he is without a prime minister and um he is without a prime minister and um he is without question the most respected politician question the most respected politician question the most respected politician in the country he's um u former viceroy in the country he's um u former viceroy in the country he's um u former viceroy of India he's seen as incredibly safe

of India he's seen as incredibly safe of India he's seen as incredibly safe pair of hands man of resolute sound pair of hands man of resolute sound pair of hands man of resolute sound judgment etc etc um but he doesn't want judgment etc etc um but he doesn't want judgment etc etc um but he doesn't want to take it he feels physically ill at to take it he feels physically ill at to take it he feels physically ill at the prospect, doesn't want this the prospect, doesn't want this the prospect, doesn't want this responsibility. He's also not really a responsibility. He's also not really a responsibility. He's also not really a military man. He's got a slightly sort military man. He's got a slightly sort military man. He's got a slightly sort of withered hand which has prevented him of withered hand which has prevented him of withered hand which has prevented him from doing military service and he just from doing military service and he just from doing military service and he just blanches at this moment. And that really blanches at this moment. And that really blanches at this moment. And that really leaves only one other figure that could leaves only one other figure that could leaves only one other figure that could possibly take on this position and possibly take on this position and possibly take on this position and that's Churchill. So that's Churchill. So that's Churchill. So when Chamberlain resigns on the 9th of when Chamberlain resigns on the 9th of when Chamberlain resigns on the 9th of May and Halifax says it's it's not for May and Halifax says it's it's not for May and Halifax says it's it's not for me, um the only person who's going to me, um the only person who's going to me, um the only person who's going to slip into that position is Churchill and slip into that position is Churchill and slip into that position is Churchill and he becomes prime minister and he accepts he becomes prime minister and he accepts he becomes prime minister and he accepts it gladly. He feels like it is his it gladly. He feels like it is his it gladly. He feels like it is his mission in life. This is his moment mission in life. This is his moment mission in life. This is his moment cometh the outcome of the man. But he cometh the outcome of the man. But he cometh the outcome of the man. But he comes with a huge amount of baggage. I comes with a huge amount of baggage. I comes with a huge amount of baggage. I mean, you know, he's known as a man who mean, you know, he's known as a man who mean, you know, he's known as a man who drinks too much who's whose judgment drinks too much who's whose judgment drinks too much who's whose judgment hasn't always been great. You know, he hasn't always been great. You know, he hasn't always been great. You know, he was chancellor during the time of the was chancellor during the time of the was chancellor during the time of the general strike 1926. you know he backed general strike 1926. you know he backed general strike 1926. you know he backed Edward VII over the uh monarchy crisis Edward VII over the uh monarchy crisis Edward VII over the uh monarchy crisis when the king wanted to marry Wallace when the king wanted to marry Wallace when the king wanted to marry Wallace Simpson the divorcee Catholic divorcee Simpson the divorcee Catholic divorcee Simpson the divorcee Catholic divorcee etc etc so you know his judgment has etc etc so you know his judgment has etc etc so you know his judgment has been brought into question you know he been brought into question you know he been brought into question you know he is the man who was he who came up with is the man who was he who came up with is the man who was he who came up with the idea of the Gallipoli campaign which the idea of the Gallipoli campaign which the idea of the Gallipoli campaign which was you know an ignominious failure blah was you know an ignominious failure blah was you know an ignominious failure blah blah blah so there are issues over him blah blah so there are issues over him blah blah so there are issues over him you know he is seen as a hotthead and a you know he is seen as a hotthead and a you know he is seen as a hotthead and a man who doesn't have the kind of sound man who doesn't have the kind of sound man who doesn't have the kind of sound judgment of Halifax so the jury is is judgment of Halifax so the jury is is judgment of Halifax so the jury is is very much out and I think it's again very much out and I think it's again very much out and I think it's again it's one of those things where you have it's one of those things where you have it's one of those things where you have to put yourself to put yourself to put yourself in you have to look at this through the in you have to look at this through the in you have to look at this through the prism of what people were thinking in

prism of what people were thinking in prism of what people were thinking in May 1940. Yes, he he was considered a May 1940. Yes, he he was considered a May 1940. Yes, he he was considered a taran politician, but he is seen also as taran politician, but he is seen also as taran politician, but he is seen also as a loose cannon and by no means the right a loose cannon and by no means the right a loose cannon and by no means the right person in this hour of darkness. And it person in this hour of darkness. And it person in this hour of darkness. And it is coincidental that the 10th of May is coincidental that the 10th of May is coincidental that the 10th of May 1940 when he takes over as prime 1940 when he takes over as prime 1940 when he takes over as prime minister, becomes prime minister, not minister, becomes prime minister, not minister, becomes prime minister, not through an election but by default of a through an election but by default of a through an election but by default of a new nationalist government. And so no new nationalist government. And so no new nationalist government. And so no longer a conservative comp government longer a conservative comp government longer a conservative comp government but a nationalist cross party coalition but a nationalist cross party coalition but a nationalist cross party coalition government for the duration of the war. government for the duration of the war. government for the duration of the war. Um which includes you know members of of Um which includes you know members of of Um which includes you know members of of the Liberal Party and also the Labor the Liberal Party and also the Labor the Liberal Party and also the Labor Party as well as Party as well as Party as well as Conservatives that it is by no means Conservatives that it is by no means Conservatives that it is by no means certain that that he's going to be able certain that that he's going to be able certain that that he's going to be able to deliver the goods. And it is also to deliver the goods. And it is also to deliver the goods. And it is also coincidentally the same day that the coincidentally the same day that the coincidentally the same day that the Germans launched case yellow, operation Germans launched case yellow, operation Germans launched case yellow, operation yellow, the invasion of the low yellow, the invasion of the low yellow, the invasion of the low countries in France. So these are countries in France. So these are countries in France. So these are tumultuous events to put it mildly. And tumultuous events to put it mildly. And tumultuous events to put it mildly. And it is also the case that you know only a it is also the case that you know only a it is also the case that you know only a couple of weeks before um Paul Reo has couple of weeks before um Paul Reo has couple of weeks before um Paul Reo has taken over as prime minister of yet taken over as prime minister of yet taken over as prime minister of yet another coalition government in France another coalition government in France another coalition government in France from from Dadier.

from from Dadier. from from Dadier. So political turmoil is very much the So political turmoil is very much the So political turmoil is very much the watch word at this time for the uh for watch word at this time for the uh for watch word at this time for the uh for the western democracies just at the the western democracies just at the the western democracies just at the moment that the Germans are making their moment that the Germans are making their moment that the Germans are making their kind of you know their hammer strike kind of you know their hammer strike kind of you know their hammer strike into the west. into the west. into the west. This might be a good moment to bring up This might be a good moment to bring up This might be a good moment to bring up this idea that has been circulating this idea that has been circulating this idea that has been circulating recently brought up by Daryl recently brought up by Daryl recently brought up by Daryl Cooper who hyperbolically stated that Cooper who hyperbolically stated that Cooper who hyperbolically stated that Churchill was the quote chief villain of Churchill was the quote chief villain of Churchill was the quote chief villain of uh the Second World War. To give a good uh the Second World War. To give a good uh the Second World War. To give a good faith interpretation of that, I believe faith interpretation of that, I believe faith interpretation of that, I believe he meant that Churchill forced Hitler to he meant that Churchill forced Hitler to he meant that Churchill forced Hitler to escalate the expansion of Nazi Germany escalate the expansion of Nazi Germany escalate the expansion of Nazi Germany beyond Poland into a global war. So beyond Poland into a global war. So beyond Poland into a global war. So Churchill is the one that Churchill is the one that Churchill is the one that turned this narrow war Czechoslovakia, turned this narrow war Czechoslovakia, turned this narrow war Czechoslovakia, Austria, Poland into a global Austria, Poland into a global Austria, Poland into a global one. one. one. Um, is that accurate? No, I don't think Um, is that accurate? No, I don't think Um, is that accurate? No, I don't think it is. I mean, not least because the it is. I mean, not least because the it is. I mean, not least because the decisions over Poland were made by decisions over Poland were made by decisions over Poland were made by Chamberlain's government, not when Chamberlain's government, not when Chamberlain's government, not when Churchill was out of government. So, you Churchill was out of government. So, you Churchill was out of government. So, you know, Churchill wasn't even involved in know, Churchill wasn't even involved in know, Churchill wasn't even involved in that decision-making process at the that decision-making process at the that decision-making process at the time. No, I I don't think so. I mean time. No, I I don't think so. I mean time. No, I I don't think so. I mean again I I go back to kind of Britain's again I I go back to kind of Britain's again I I go back to kind of Britain's position in in the world in 1939. If you say we are going to defend 1939. If you say we are going to defend the sovereignty of Poland and then you the sovereignty of Poland and then you the sovereignty of Poland and then you don't that is that looks really bad don't that is that looks really bad don't that is that looks really bad globally. You know Britain's prestige globally. You know Britain's prestige globally. You know Britain's prestige would plummet would lead to all sorts of would plummet would lead to all sorts of would plummet would lead to all sorts of problems. Um you are saying that you're problems. Um you are saying that you're problems. Um you are saying that you're giving car blanch to dictators to just giving car blanch to dictators to just giving car blanch to dictators to just run a mock and take whatever territory

run a mock and take whatever territory run a mock and take whatever territory they want. you are risking a future they want. you are risking a future they want. you are risking a future upheaval of the global order um away upheaval of the global order um away upheaval of the global order um away from democracies into the hands of from democracies into the hands of from democracies into the hands of dictators. You know in the west people dictators. You know in the west people dictators. You know in the west people believe in democracy and believe in believe in democracy and believe in believe in democracy and believe in advancement of of and freedoms of advancement of of and freedoms of advancement of of and freedoms of people. This is you know to to echo the people. This is you know to to echo the people. This is you know to to echo the words of Roosevelt in August 1941. You words of Roosevelt in August 1941. You words of Roosevelt in August 1941. You know that they're aspiring to a world um know that they're aspiring to a world um know that they're aspiring to a world um free of want and fear. Now, free of want and fear. Now, free of want and fear. Now, obviously, there's still some issues obviously, there's still some issues obviously, there's still some issues with the form that democracy takes in with the form that democracy takes in with the form that democracy takes in the 1930s. It's not democratic for the 1930s. It's not democratic for the 1930s. It's not democratic for everyone. You know, try saying that if everyone. You know, try saying that if everyone. You know, try saying that if you're in Nigeria or uh or or India or you're in Nigeria or uh or or India or you're in Nigeria or uh or or India or whatever. Um or if you're, you know, in whatever. Um or if you're, you know, in whatever. Um or if you're, you know, in the black southern states of the United the black southern states of the United the black southern states of the United States. But the aspirations are there. States. But the aspirations are there. States. But the aspirations are there. And I think that's that's that's an And I think that's that's that's an And I think that's that's that's an important distinction. And I think by important distinction. And I think by important distinction. And I think by saying that that Churchill is the chief saying that that Churchill is the chief saying that that Churchill is the chief wararmonger of the Second World War, I wararmonger of the Second World War, I wararmonger of the Second World War, I think is is ludicrous. You know, it's think is is ludicrous. You know, it's think is is ludicrous. You know, it's the same thing about about the bombing, the same thing about about the bombing, the same thing about about the bombing, you know, the the the detractors of you know, the the the detractors of you know, the the the detractors of strategic air campaign always go, "Yeah, strategic air campaign always go, "Yeah, strategic air campaign always go, "Yeah, but you know, Germans had the Holocaust, but you know, Germans had the Holocaust, but you know, Germans had the Holocaust, but but weren't the weren't the allies but but weren't the weren't the allies but but weren't the weren't the allies just as bad killing all those just as bad killing all those just as bad killing all those civilians?" It's like, "No, because the civilians?" It's like, "No, because the civilians?" It's like, "No, because the moment Hitler stopped the war, the moment Hitler stopped the war, the moment Hitler stopped the war, the bombing would stop." You know, the bombing would stop." You know, the bombing would stop." You know, the moment the war stopped in Hitler's moment the war stopped in Hitler's moment the war stopped in Hitler's favor, the killing would continue and be favor, the killing would continue and be favor, the killing would continue and be accelerated. So the the thing you accelerated. So the the thing you accelerated. So the the thing you mentioned initially is the sort of the mentioned initially is the sort of the mentioned initially is the sort of the idealist perspective of well Britain idealist perspective of well Britain idealist perspective of well Britain can't can't can't allow sort of uh this wararmonger to

allow sort of uh this wararmonger to allow sort of uh this wararmonger to break all these pacts and be break all these pacts and be break all these pacts and be undemocratic you know um murder a large undemocratic you know um murder a large undemocratic you know um murder a large number of people and do conquest of number of people and do conquest of number of people and do conquest of territory okay that's idealistic but if territory okay that's idealistic but if territory okay that's idealistic but if we look at a realist we look at a realist we look at a realist perspective, what perspective, what perspective, what decisions would minimize the amount of decisions would minimize the amount of decisions would minimize the amount of suffering on the continent in the next suffering on the continent in the next suffering on the continent in the next 50 50 50 years? So, one of the arguments that years? So, one of the arguments that years? So, one of the arguments that he's making, I happen to disagree with he's making, I happen to disagree with he's making, I happen to disagree with it, to put it mildly, is that it, to put it mildly, is that it, to put it mildly, is that Churchill increased the amount of Churchill increased the amount of Churchill increased the amount of suffering. So, Churchill Church suffering. So, Churchill Church suffering. So, Churchill Church Churchill's presence and decisions. So, Churchill's presence and decisions. So, Churchill's presence and decisions. So, we're not talking about idealistic we're not talking about idealistic we're not talking about idealistic perspective. We're talking about realist perspective. We're talking about realist perspective. We're talking about realist like the the reality of the war of like the the reality of the war of like the the reality of the war of Stalin of of Hitler of Churchill of uh Stalin of of Hitler of Churchill of uh Stalin of of Hitler of Churchill of uh of France and FDR. Did Churchill drag Hitler into a FDR. Did Churchill drag Hitler into a world war? Did he force Hitler to invade world war? Did he force Hitler to invade world war? Did he force Hitler to invade the Soviet Union? Did he force Hitler to the Soviet Union? Did he force Hitler to the Soviet Union? Did he force Hitler to then in invade uh attack Britain? Well, then in invade uh attack Britain? Well, then in invade uh attack Britain? Well, no, because because Hitler was always no, because because Hitler was always no, because because Hitler was always going to invade the Soviet Union if going to invade the Soviet Union if going to invade the Soviet Union if unless unless the Soviet Union invaded unless unless the Soviet Union invaded unless unless the Soviet Union invaded Germany first. So, that was always going Germany first. So, that was always going Germany first. So, that was always going to happen. Um, no one asked Hitler to to happen. Um, no one asked Hitler to to happen. Um, no one asked Hitler to invade the low countries and Norway and invade the low countries and Norway and invade the low countries and Norway and Denmark and attack Britain.

Um he does that of course because he's Um he does that of course because he's not given a free hand in Poland but not given a free hand in Poland but not given a free hand in Poland but there's no question that Hiller would there's no question that Hiller would there's no question that Hiller would have also wanted to subdue France or have also wanted to subdue France or have also wanted to subdue France or certainly turn France from a democracy certainly turn France from a democracy certainly turn France from a democracy into a totalitarian state as well. I'm into a totalitarian state as well. I'm into a totalitarian state as well. I'm absolutely certain about that. So I absolutely certain about that. So I absolutely certain about that. So I think there's pretty definitive think there's pretty definitive think there's pretty definitive evidence. I mean it's obvious from evidence. I mean it's obvious from evidence. I mean it's obvious from everything he's said from everything everything he's said from everything everything he's said from everything he's written from everything everywhere he's written from everything everywhere he's written from everything everywhere that he was going to invade the Soviet that he was going to invade the Soviet that he was going to invade the Soviet Union. uh no matter what. Yeah. And Union. uh no matter what. Yeah. And Union. uh no matter what. Yeah. And France most likely. Yes. Also he would France most likely. Yes. Also he would France most likely. Yes. Also he would have done a deal with Britain. Britain have done a deal with Britain. Britain have done a deal with Britain. Britain could have coexisted. So actually there could have coexisted. So actually there could have coexisted. So actually there is a is there there is a possible is a is there there is a possible is a is there there is a possible reality. I don't know maybe you can reality. I don't know maybe you can reality. I don't know maybe you can correct me on this where Hitler correct me on this where Hitler correct me on this where Hitler basically takes all of Europe except basically takes all of Europe except basically takes all of Europe except Britain. Yes. But then he would have got Britain. Yes. But then he would have got Britain. Yes. But then he would have got so strong that he would have then turned so strong that he would have then turned so strong that he would have then turned on Britain as well. You know, because he on Britain as well. You know, because he on Britain as well. You know, because he he would, you know, the fear is that if he would, you know, the fear is that if he would, you know, the fear is that if you let him do this and then then he he you let him do this and then then he he you let him do this and then then he he gets greedy, he wants the next one, then gets greedy, he wants the next one, then gets greedy, he wants the next one, then he wants the next one, then he wants the he wants the next one, then he wants the he wants the next one, then he wants the next one and, you know, then he wants to next one and, you know, then he wants to next one and, you know, then he wants to take over the whole world. And, you take over the whole world. And, you take over the whole world. And, you know, that is that is the fear of the know, that is that is the fear of the know, that is that is the fear of the British. That is the fear of the British. That is the fear of the British. That is the fear of the Americans. That's a fear of President Americans. That's a fear of President Americans. That's a fear of President Roosevelt who's got a very we haven't Roosevelt who's got a very we haven't Roosevelt who's got a very we haven't even touched on this yet, but he has a even touched on this yet, but he has a even touched on this yet, but he has a very difficult uh um case on his hands very difficult uh um case on his hands very difficult uh um case on his hands because he's come into power also in because he's come into power also in because he's come into power also in January 1933 January 1933 January 1933 um as president of the United States on um as president of the United States on um as president of the United States on an isolationist ticket with a an isolationist ticket with a an isolationist ticket with a retrenching with a kind of sort of you retrenching with a kind of sort of you retrenching with a kind of sort of you know step away from the European old know step away from the European old know step away from the European old order. It's time for the Europeans on order. It's time for the Europeans on order. It's time for the Europeans on their own. Um it all sounds very

their own. Um it all sounds very their own. Um it all sounds very familiar right now. um and and suddenly familiar right now. um and and suddenly familiar right now. um and and suddenly he's got to do this gargantuan political he's got to do this gargantuan political he's got to do this gargantuan political vault vault vault um and prepare the nation for war um and prepare the nation for war um and prepare the nation for war because he also fears like Churchill because he also fears like Churchill because he also fears like Churchill fears like most like Chamberlain feared fears like most like Chamberlain feared fears like most like Chamberlain feared as well um that that Hitler's designs as well um that that Hitler's designs as well um that that Hitler's designs are not purely on Eastern Europe and the are not purely on Eastern Europe and the are not purely on Eastern Europe and the Lebanon's there but would get ever Lebanon's there but would get ever Lebanon's there but would get ever bigger and I don't I don't doubt that bigger and I don't I don't doubt that bigger and I don't I don't doubt that they're right. I think if he'd prevailed they're right. I think if he'd prevailed they're right. I think if he'd prevailed in the Soviet Union, you know, he he'd in the Soviet Union, you know, he he'd in the Soviet Union, you know, he he'd always wanted more, you know, because always wanted more, you know, because always wanted more, you know, because his whole concept is the master race, his whole concept is the master race, his whole concept is the master race, you know. Yeah. I I think I think it you know. Yeah. I I think I think it you know. Yeah. I I think I think it should be said if we if we measure human should be said if we if we measure human should be said if we if we measure human suffering, if there was not Britain on suffering, if there was not Britain on suffering, if there was not Britain on the other side, if it was not a two-f the other side, if it was not a two-f the other side, if it was not a two-f frontont war that the chances of Hitler frontont war that the chances of Hitler frontont war that the chances of Hitler succeeding in the Soviet Union is much succeeding in the Soviet Union is much succeeding in the Soviet Union is much higher or at least a more prolonged war higher or at least a more prolonged war higher or at least a more prolonged war and there would be more dead, more and there would be more dead, more and there would be more dead, more enslaved and more tortured and all of enslaved and more tortured and all of enslaved and more tortured and all of this. Yes. and and ditto if you you know this. Yes. and and ditto if you you know this. Yes. and and ditto if you you know if the if the allies hadn't got involved if the if the allies hadn't got involved if the if the allies hadn't got involved against Imperial Japan you know it would against Imperial Japan you know it would against Imperial Japan you know it would have been would have been catastrophic I have been would have been catastrophic I have been would have been catastrophic I mean 20 to 30 million Chinese dead mean 20 to 30 million Chinese dead mean 20 to 30 million Chinese dead anyway you know with American and anyway you know with American and anyway you know with American and British intervention you know was it British intervention you know was it British intervention you know was it going to be in China without that I mean going to be in China without that I mean going to be in China without that I mean and elsewhere you know because because and elsewhere you know because because and elsewhere you know because because the reason why Japan invades French the reason why Japan invades French the reason why Japan invades French Indo-China now Vietnam Indo-China now Vietnam Indo-China now Vietnam um and Hong Kong and um and Malaya and um and Hong Kong and um and Malaya and um and Hong Kong and um and Malaya and Singapore and and so on and Burma is

Singapore and and so on and Burma is Singapore and and so on and Burma is because it's not winning in China and it because it's not winning in China and it because it's not winning in China and it needs more resources because it's needs more resources because it's needs more resources because it's resource poor and America has cut off resource poor and America has cut off resource poor and America has cut off the tap. So is going into these the tap. So is going into these the tap. So is going into these countries to to get what it needs its countries to to get what it needs its countries to to get what it needs its rubber and oil and natural resources and rubber and oil and natural resources and rubber and oil and natural resources and ores precious ores and all the rest of ores precious ores and all the rest of ores precious ores and all the rest of it. And if it had been unchecked, it it. And if it had been unchecked, it it. And if it had been unchecked, it would have done so. And then it would would have done so. And then it would would have done so. And then it would have have have absolutely built up its strength and absolutely built up its strength and absolutely built up its strength and overrun the whole of China with even overrun the whole of China with even overrun the whole of China with even more deaths. So, you know, I I I think more deaths. So, you know, I I I think more deaths. So, you know, I I I think there is I think the one of the there is I think the one of the there is I think the one of the interesting things about the Second interesting things about the Second interesting things about the Second World War is is lots of wars and why World War is is lots of wars and why World War is is lots of wars and why people get involved in them are people get involved in them are people get involved in them are extremely questionable. But I think extremely questionable. But I think extremely questionable. But I think there is a moral crusade to to the there is a moral crusade to to the there is a moral crusade to to the Allies and what they're doing that I Allies and what they're doing that I Allies and what they're doing that I think is entirely justified. What I think is entirely justified. What I think is entirely justified. What I think is interesting also is that as the think is interesting also is that as the think is interesting also is that as the war war war progresses, you know, if the allies are progresses, you know, if the allies are progresses, you know, if the allies are supposed to be on the force of the good, supposed to be on the force of the good, supposed to be on the force of the good, how come they're doing so much bad? And how come they're doing so much bad? And how come they're doing so much bad? And at what point is doing bad stopping you at what point is doing bad stopping you at what point is doing bad stopping you from doing good? And at what point are from doing good? And at what point are from doing good? And at what point are you doing good but also doing bad at the you doing good but also doing bad at the you doing good but also doing bad at the same time? Such as destruction of same time? Such as destruction of same time? Such as destruction of cities, um destruction of monasteries on cities, um destruction of monasteries on cities, um destruction of monasteries on outcrops in southern Italy, you know, outcrops in southern Italy, you know, outcrops in southern Italy, you know, destruction of killing of loss of destruction of killing of loss of destruction of killing of loss of civilians, etc., etc. you know that civilians, etc., etc. you know that civilians, etc., etc. you know that these are these are difficult questions these are these are difficult questions these are these are difficult questions to to answer to to answer to to answer sometimes they're also incredibly sometimes they're also incredibly sometimes they're also incredibly interesting and I think that moral interesting and I think that moral interesting and I think that moral component starts to blur a little bit by component starts to blur a little bit by component starts to blur a little bit by kind of middle of the war by 1943 you

kind of middle of the war by 1943 you kind of middle of the war by 1943 you know it's it's kind of easy to have a a know it's it's kind of easy to have a a know it's it's kind of easy to have a a fairly uh cut and dry um war in North fairly uh cut and dry um war in North fairly uh cut and dry um war in North Africa in the deserts of North Africa Africa in the deserts of North Africa Africa in the deserts of North Africa where you know the only people getting where you know the only people getting where you know the only people getting in the way are a few sort of Bedwin in the way are a few sort of Bedwin in the way are a few sort of Bedwin tribesmen or something but but once you tribesmen or something but but once you tribesmen or something but but once you start getting into Europe or getting start getting into Europe or getting start getting into Europe or getting into the kind of the the meat of highly into the kind of the the meat of highly into the kind of the the meat of highly populated countries in the Far East um populated countries in the Far East um populated countries in the Far East um for example, that's a different kind of for example, that's a different kind of for example, that's a different kind of fish because the scale of destruction is fish because the scale of destruction is fish because the scale of destruction is absolutely immense. But it is also the absolutely immense. But it is also the absolutely immense. But it is also the job of of political leaders job of of political leaders job of of political leaders um to look after and defend their own um to look after and defend their own um to look after and defend their own peoples first and foremost. And so what peoples first and foremost. And so what peoples first and foremost. And so what you're doing is you're trying to protect you're doing is you're trying to protect you're doing is you're trying to protect your own sovereignty, your own people your own sovereignty, your own people your own sovereignty, your own people before you're protecting other people. before you're protecting other people. before you're protecting other people. And And And so that's what leads to, you know, the so that's what leads to, you know, the so that's what leads to, you know, the whole way in which the allies are, the whole way in which the allies are, the whole way in which the allies are, the western allies are protracting war is to western allies are protracting war is to western allies are protracting war is to try and minimize the number of deaths of try and minimize the number of deaths of try and minimize the number of deaths of their own young men as much as they their own young men as much as they their own young men as much as they possibly can whilst at the same time possibly can whilst at the same time possibly can whilst at the same time winning the war. And that means bringing winning the war. And that means bringing winning the war. And that means bringing lots of destruction to your enemies, but lots of destruction to your enemies, but lots of destruction to your enemies, but also trying to minimize it. And the way also trying to minimize it. And the way also trying to minimize it. And the way you bring lots of destruction by to your you bring lots of destruction by to your you bring lots of destruction by to your enemies is by using immense firepower.

enemies is by using immense firepower. enemies is by using immense firepower. and this concept of steal not our flesh and this concept of steal not our flesh and this concept of steal not our flesh which I mentioned earlier on and which I mentioned earlier on and which I mentioned earlier on and technology um so that you don't have to technology um so that you don't have to technology um so that you don't have to bring to bear too many of your young bring to bear too many of your young bring to bear too many of your young men's eyes and you don't have a repeat men's eyes and you don't have a repeat men's eyes and you don't have a repeat of the slaughter of the first world war. of the slaughter of the first world war. of the slaughter of the first world war. So, you know, it is really interesting So, you know, it is really interesting So, you know, it is really interesting that that in in our mind's eye when that that in in our mind's eye when that that in in our mind's eye when we're thinking of, you know, the Western we're thinking of, you know, the Western we're thinking of, you know, the Western Allies in in the Second World War, Allies in in the Second World War, Allies in in the Second World War, probably the first thing that comes into probably the first thing that comes into probably the first thing that comes into mind is Americans jumping out of landing mind is Americans jumping out of landing mind is Americans jumping out of landing craft on Omaha Beach on D-Day, for craft on Omaha Beach on D-Day, for craft on Omaha Beach on D-Day, for example. Those are infantrymen. They're example. Those are infantrymen. They're example. Those are infantrymen. They're the front line. They are the coldface of the front line. They are the coldface of the front line. They are the coldface of that. They're the first people going that. They're the first people going that. They're the first people going into the into the fire of the enemy. and into the into the fire of the enemy. and into the into the fire of the enemy. and we tend to think about guys in tanks, we tend to think about guys in tanks, we tend to think about guys in tanks, um, infantrymen with their garand rifles um, infantrymen with their garand rifles um, infantrymen with their garand rifles or, you know, machine guns or whatever. or, you know, machine guns or whatever. or, you know, machine guns or whatever. That's that's what springs to mind. Yet, That's that's what springs to mind. Yet, That's that's what springs to mind. Yet, actually, they're a comparatively small actually, they're a comparatively small actually, they're a comparatively small proportion of the army. So, no more than proportion of the army. So, no more than proportion of the army. So, no more than 14 to 15% of any army, allied army, is 14 to 15% of any army, allied army, is 14 to 15% of any army, allied army, is infantry. 45% are service corps service infantry. 45% are service corps service infantry. 45% are service corps service troops driving trucks and cooks and troops driving trucks and cooks and troops driving trucks and cooks and bottle washers and people lugging great bottle washers and people lugging great bottle washers and people lugging great big boxes of stuff you know and that's big boxes of stuff you know and that's big boxes of stuff you know and that's because by that stage you know the because by that stage you know the because by that stage you know the allies have worked out the way of war allies have worked out the way of war allies have worked out the way of war which is is to is to use is what I call which is is to is to use is what I call which is is to is to use is what I call big war this concept of of a very long big war this concept of of a very long big war this concept of of a very long tale logistics the operational art tale logistics the operational art tale logistics the operational art making sure that people have the making sure that people have the making sure that people have the absolute best you possibly can great absolute best you possibly can great absolute best you possibly can great medical care huge advances in in in medical care huge advances in in in medical care huge advances in in in first aid and and medical care of troops first aid and and medical care of troops first aid and and medical care of troops getting them back onto the battlefield getting them back onto the battlefield getting them back onto the battlefield and for using firepower and technology and for using firepower and technology and for using firepower and technology and mechanization to do a lot of your and mechanization to do a lot of your and mechanization to do a lot of your hard yards.

hard yards. hard yards. So, you know, that's the principle So, you know, that's the principle So, you know, that's the principle behind strategic bombing. You know, if behind strategic bombing. You know, if behind strategic bombing. You know, if you can if you go over and bomb and you you can if you go over and bomb and you you can if you go over and bomb and you can destroy infrastructure and civilians can destroy infrastructure and civilians can destroy infrastructure and civilians and households, that makes it much and households, that makes it much and households, that makes it much harder for for corrupt to make those harder for for corrupt to make those harder for for corrupt to make those panther tanks and Tiger tanks or panther tanks and Tiger tanks or panther tanks and Tiger tanks or whatever it might be and guns. And, you whatever it might be and guns. And, you whatever it might be and guns. And, you know, you're disrupting the know, you're disrupting the know, you're disrupting the transportation system in Germany. you transportation system in Germany. you transportation system in Germany. you know, you're making life difficult for know, you're making life difficult for know, you're making life difficult for them to do what they need to do, then them to do what they need to do, then them to do what they need to do, then that means it's going to be easier for that means it's going to be easier for that means it's going to be easier for those 15, 14, 15% of infantrymen who've those 15, 14, 15% of infantrymen who've those 15, 14, 15% of infantrymen who've got to jump out of anticcraft to do got to jump out of anticcraft to do got to jump out of anticcraft to do their job. And you're trying to keep their job. And you're trying to keep their job. And you're trying to keep that to a minimum. And you'd have to that to a minimum. And you'd have to that to a minimum. And you'd have to say, broadly speaking, that's a very say, broadly speaking, that's a very say, broadly speaking, that's a very sensible policy that makes an awful lot sensible policy that makes an awful lot sensible policy that makes an awful lot of sense. of sense. of sense. Um, consequence of that is a huge amount Um, consequence of that is a huge amount Um, consequence of that is a huge amount of destruction. And maybe that's what of destruction. And maybe that's what of destruction. And maybe that's what Daryl Cooper's driving at, but no one Daryl Cooper's driving at, but no one Daryl Cooper's driving at, but no one asked Hitler to invade Poland. I mean, asked Hitler to invade Poland. I mean, asked Hitler to invade Poland. I mean, you know, that is the bottom line. No you know, that is the bottom line. No you know, that is the bottom line. No one asked Germany to go to war. No one one asked Germany to go to war. No one one asked Germany to go to war. No one asked Hitler to come up with these asked Hitler to come up with these asked Hitler to come up with these ludicrous ideology. Yeah. There's ludicrous ideology. Yeah. There's ludicrous ideology. Yeah. There's complex ethical discussions here about complex ethical discussions here about complex ethical discussions here about uh uh just like as you describe which uh uh just like as you describe which uh uh just like as you describe which are fascinating which are fascinating are fascinating which are fascinating are fascinating which are fascinating and and and uh war is hell and there's many ways in uh war is hell and there's many ways in uh war is hell and there's many ways in which it is hell.

which it is hell. which it is hell. uh just for a little bit the steel man uh just for a little bit the steel man uh just for a little bit the steel man what uh Daryl is where he might be what uh Daryl is where he might be what uh Daryl is where he might be coming from is since World War coming from is since World War coming from is since World War II II II the simplistic veneration of the simplistic veneration of the simplistic veneration of Churchill sort of saying Churchill good Churchill sort of saying Churchill good Churchill sort of saying Churchill good Hitler bad has been used as a template Hitler bad has been used as a template Hitler bad has been used as a template to project under other to project under other to project under other conflicts to justify military uh conflicts to justify military uh conflicts to justify military uh intervention and so his general his and intervention and so his general his and intervention and so his general his and other people like libertarians for other people like libertarians for other people like libertarians for example resistance to that overly example resistance to that overly example resistance to that overly simplistic veneration of somebody like simplistic veneration of somebody like simplistic veneration of somebody like Churchill has to do with the fact that Churchill has to do with the fact that Churchill has to do with the fact that that seems to be by neocons and wararm that seems to be by neocons and wararm that seems to be by neocons and wararm mongers in the military-industrial mongers in the military-industrial mongers in the military-industrial complex in the United States and complex in the United States and complex in the United States and elsewhere using Hitler way too much elsewhere using Hitler way too much elsewhere using Hitler way too much using Churchill way too much to justify using Churchill way too much to justify using Churchill way too much to justify invading everywhere and anywhere. I well invading everywhere and anywhere. I well invading everywhere and anywhere. I well I I do agree with that. I I think I I do agree with that. I I think I I do agree with that. I I think oversimplification of anything is a oversimplification of anything is a oversimplification of anything is a mistake. You know, life is mistake. You know, life is mistake. You know, life is nuanced. The past is nuanced. It's okay nuanced. The past is nuanced. It's okay nuanced. The past is nuanced. It's okay to be proud about certain things and to be proud about certain things and to be proud about certain things and it's okay to be disgusted by other it's okay to be disgusted by other it's okay to be disgusted by other things. That's absolutely fine. You things. That's absolutely fine. You things. That's absolutely fine. You know, we have a complicated relationship know, we have a complicated relationship know, we have a complicated relationship with our past. It doesn't need to be with our past. It doesn't need to be with our past. It doesn't need to be black and white. And um you know, life black and white. And um you know, life black and white. And um you know, life is not a straight line. And of course, is not a straight line. And of course, is not a straight line. And of course, as you know, the allies make plenty of as you know, the allies make plenty of as you know, the allies make plenty of mistakes in in in World War II. Overall, mistakes in in in World War II. Overall, mistakes in in in World War II. Overall, I think they made the right calls. And I I think they made the right calls. And I I think they made the right calls. And I think one of the things that's really think one of the things that's really think one of the things that's really interesting is I think that that the interesting is I think that that the interesting is I think that that the Allies for the most part use their Allies for the most part use their Allies for the most part use their resources much more judiciously and

resources much more judiciously and resources much more judiciously and sensibly sensibly sensibly than the Axis powers do and you know than the Axis powers do and you know than the Axis powers do and you know good um because that means they prevail. good um because that means they prevail. good um because that means they prevail. I think you know there are so many I think you know there are so many I think you know there are so many lessons um from World War II that could lessons um from World War II that could lessons um from World War II that could have been brought into the last the have been brought into the last the have been brought into the last the history of the last 30 years which history of the last 30 years which history of the last 30 years which weren't you know such weren't you know such weren't you know such as you know if you have if you if you as you know if you have if you if you as you know if you have if you if you decapitate an incredibly strong leader decapitate an incredibly strong leader decapitate an incredibly strong leader you get a power vacuum and if you don't you get a power vacuum and if you don't you get a power vacuum and if you don't have a solution for that power vacuum have a solution for that power vacuum have a solution for that power vacuum lots of bad elements are going to sweep lots of bad elements are going to sweep lots of bad elements are going to sweep into that in very quick order which of into that in very quick order which of into that in very quick order which of course is exactly what happens in in in course is exactly what happens in in in course is exactly what happens in in in Iraq so you know Donald Ronson going we Iraq so you know Donald Ronson going we Iraq so you know Donald Ronson going we don't do reconstruction well you don't do reconstruction well you don't do reconstruction well you freaking well should do. You know, this freaking well should do. You know, this freaking well should do. You know, this this if you're going to if you're going this if you're going to if you're going this if you're going to if you're going to take on this this particular to take on this this particular to take on this this particular challenge, you've got to see it through. challenge, you've got to see it through. challenge, you've got to see it through. You know, that's that's simply not good You know, that's that's simply not good You know, that's that's simply not good enough. You know, it's not good enough enough. You know, it's not good enough enough. You know, it's not good enough to go into Afghanistan and go, "Okay, to go into Afghanistan and go, "Okay, to go into Afghanistan and go, "Okay, we're going to change things around. we're going to change things around. we're going to change things around. It's going to be great. You know, all It's going to be great. You know, all It's going to be great. You know, all the women are going to have education. the women are going to have education. the women are going to have education. They won't have to wear kind of, you They won't have to wear kind of, you They won't have to wear kind of, you know, uh um won't have to cover up their know, uh um won't have to cover up their know, uh um won't have to cover up their bodies anymore. Um anything goes. We bodies anymore. Um anything goes. We bodies anymore. Um anything goes. We love liberalism. It's great. Um let's love liberalism. It's great. Um let's love liberalism. It's great. Um let's make cobble into a thriving city once make cobble into a thriving city once make cobble into a thriving city once more." and then suddenly bug out, you more." and then suddenly bug out, you more." and then suddenly bug out, you know, because what what what's going to know, because what what what's going to know, because what what what's going to happen? You're going to undo everything.

happen? You're going to undo everything. happen? You're going to undo everything. And and I remember being in, you know, And and I remember being in, you know, And and I remember being in, you know, this is a bit of a segue, Lex, but I I this is a bit of a segue, Lex, but I I this is a bit of a segue, Lex, but I I remember being in in Northern Helman remember being in in Northern Helman remember being in in Northern Helman province back in, you know, when was it province back in, you know, when was it province back in, you know, when was it January 2008, and uh British troops had January 2008, and uh British troops had January 2008, and uh British troops had just taken over an absolute dump of a just taken over an absolute dump of a just taken over an absolute dump of a town called um town called um town called um Musakala. And I remember talking to this Musakala. And I remember talking to this Musakala. And I remember talking to this Afghan guy. He he just had all his Afghan guy. He he just had all his Afghan guy. He he just had all his willow trees chopped down to make room willow trees chopped down to make room willow trees chopped down to make room for a helipad that the allies wanted for a helipad that the allies wanted for a helipad that the allies wanted which which which they you know they put their kind of sur they you know they put their kind of sur they you know they put their kind of sur you know those cages with kind of rubble you know those cages with kind of rubble you know those cages with kind of rubble in the protective wall is it called in the protective wall is it called in the protective wall is it called Hesco I think it was called anyway I Hesco I think it was called anyway I Hesco I think it was called anyway I said to him what do what do you think said to him what do what do you think said to him what do what do you think about about the British being there and about about the British being there and about about the British being there and he just went shrugged at me lifted up he just went shrugged at me lifted up he just went shrugged at me lifted up his hands and said well you know if they his hands and said well you know if they his hands and said well you know if they stay great but they stay great but they stay great but they won't and and he said said you know if won't and and he said said you know if won't and and he said said you know if they stay then brilliant but he said I they stay then brilliant but he said I they stay then brilliant but he said I tell you what he said, "Taliban went tell you what he said, "Taliban went tell you what he said, "Taliban went great. They weren't fantastic." He said, great. They weren't fantastic." He said, great. They weren't fantastic." He said, "But I could leave my personal wall and "But I could leave my personal wall and "But I could leave my personal wall and no one would touch it. I could leave it no one would touch it. I could leave it no one would touch it. I could leave it on a wall for a week. No one would touch on a wall for a week. No one would touch on a wall for a week. No one would touch it." Said said, "Will they bring that it." Said said, "Will they bring that it." Said said, "Will they bring that kind of order?" You know, "Will will we kind of order?" You know, "Will will we kind of order?" You know, "Will will we have will we have peace here?" You know, have will we have peace here?" You know, have will we have peace here?" You know, they've just chopped down my my willow they've just chopped down my my willow they've just chopped down my my willow trees. You know, thanks a lot. And you trees. You know, thanks a lot. And you trees. You know, thanks a lot. And you you know you you you're seeing a total you know you you you're seeing a total you know you you you're seeing a total lack of understanding of the lack of understanding of the lack of understanding of the culture, ethnic differences, you're culture, ethnic differences, you're culture, ethnic differences, you're trying to impose a kind of western trying to impose a kind of western trying to impose a kind of western centric view onto something which is centric view onto something which is centric view onto something which is just some, you know, onto onto a onto a just some, you know, onto onto a onto a just some, you know, onto onto a onto a nation which isn't isn't ready for that.

nation which isn't isn't ready for that. nation which isn't isn't ready for that. Now there are ways in which you know it Now there are ways in which you know it Now there are ways in which you know it looked like Afghanistan was starting to looked like Afghanistan was starting to looked like Afghanistan was starting to kind of emerge and there was a path and kind of emerge and there was a path and kind of emerge and there was a path and then just at the critical moment the then just at the critical moment the then just at the critical moment the west moves out with west moves out with west moves out with catastrophic catastrophic catastrophic consequences. What you have to say consequences. What you have to say consequences. What you have to say though is that in the west post 1945 the though is that in the west post 1945 the though is that in the west post 1945 the rehabilitation of Italy of Japan of rehabilitation of Italy of Japan of rehabilitation of Italy of Japan of western Germany was really good. You western Germany was really good. You western Germany was really good. You know, the consequence of of all that know, the consequence of of all that know, the consequence of of all that destruction, all that turmoil destruction, all that turmoil destruction, all that turmoil was thriving, was thriving, was thriving, high-proucing high-proucing high-proucing democracies which burst forth into the democracies which burst forth into the democracies which burst forth into the kind of second half of the 20 20th kind of second half of the 20 20th kind of second half of the 20 20th century and into the 21st century in century and into the 21st century in century and into the 21st century in pretty good order. pretty good order. pretty good order. Um so the lessons of the previous Um so the lessons of the previous Um so the lessons of the previous generation from the first world war had generation from the first world war had generation from the first world war had had been had been learned even though had been had been learned even though had been had been learned even though the scale of destruction the the scale of destruction the the scale of destruction the displacement of people is unprecedented displacement of people is unprecedented displacement of people is unprecedented in 1945 in 1945 in 1945 in in in 1939 what was the state of the 1939 what was the state of the 1939 what was the state of the militaries? What were the most powerful militaries? What were the most powerful militaries? What were the most powerful militaries on the world stage at that militaries on the world stage at that militaries on the world stage at that time? Well um in terms of naval power time? Well um in terms of naval power time? Well um in terms of naval power Britain as we've already discussed and Britain as we've already discussed and Britain as we've already discussed and and and the United States. France has a and and the United States. France has a and and the United States. France has a pretty large navy. Uh, Japan has a pretty large navy. Uh, Japan has a pretty large navy. Uh, Japan has a pretty large navy. Italy has a pretty pretty large navy. Italy has a pretty pretty large navy. Italy has a pretty large navy. But Italy's navy is by far large navy. But Italy's navy is by far large navy. But Italy's navy is by far and away its most modern aspect of its and away its most modern aspect of its and away its most modern aspect of its three services, airland and sea. Um, but three services, airland and sea. Um, but three services, airland and sea. Um, but it doesn't have any aircraft carriers it doesn't have any aircraft carriers it doesn't have any aircraft carriers and doesn't have any radar. So, you and doesn't have any radar. So, you and doesn't have any radar. So, you know, it's it's they've got modern know, it's it's they've got modern know, it's it's they've got modern battleships and battle cruisers, but battleships and battle cruisers, but battleships and battle cruisers, but without key modern bits of technology.

without key modern bits of technology. without key modern bits of technology. So, Italy is really not ready for war. So, Italy is really not ready for war. So, Italy is really not ready for war. Oh, it's so not. It's so not. It's just Oh, it's so not. It's so not. It's just Oh, it's so not. It's so not. It's just again both Hitler and Mussolini, they again both Hitler and Mussolini, they again both Hitler and Mussolini, they they lack geopolitical understanding, they lack geopolitical understanding, they lack geopolitical understanding, you know, that's because they're so kind you know, that's because they're so kind you know, that's because they're so kind of focused on their narrow worldview and of focused on their narrow worldview and of focused on their narrow worldview and they view everything through that they view everything through that they view everything through that prison, but they can't see that bigger prison, but they can't see that bigger prison, but they can't see that bigger picture. And we should say that picture. And we should say that picture. And we should say that Mussolini, maybe you can correct me, but Mussolini, maybe you can correct me, but Mussolini, maybe you can correct me, but I don't think at any point he wants a I don't think at any point he wants a I don't think at any point he wants a war. He doesn't want a war. What he does war. He doesn't want a war. What he does war. He doesn't want a war. What he does want is he wants his own new kind of want is he wants his own new kind of want is he wants his own new kind of Roman Empire which extends over the Roman Empire which extends over the Roman Empire which extends over the Mediterranean, the kind of certainly the Mediterranean, the kind of certainly the Mediterranean, the kind of certainly the eastern part of the Med half of the eastern part of the Med half of the eastern part of the Med half of the Mediterranean, North Africa all the way Mediterranean, North Africa all the way Mediterranean, North Africa all the way down to kind of East Africa controlling down to kind of East Africa controlling down to kind of East Africa controlling the Sewish Canal. That that's that's the Sewish Canal. That that's that's the Sewish Canal. That that's that's what he wants. And I think he made clear what he wants. And I think he made clear what he wants. And I think he made clear that he was I mean there's always like that he was I mean there's always like that he was I mean there's always like this little brother jealous of Hitler this little brother jealous of Hitler this little brother jealous of Hitler kind of situation because he he wanted kind of situation because he he wanted kind of situation because he he wanted absolute power the way Hitler did but absolute power the way Hitler did but absolute power the way Hitler did but doesn't have it. Doesn't have it. And doesn't have it. Doesn't have it. And doesn't have it. Doesn't have it. And describe Yeah. There's a monarchy often describe Yeah. There's a monarchy often describe Yeah. There's a monarchy often forgotten. It's amazing. So there's forgotten. It's amazing. So there's forgotten. It's amazing. So there's always this limit and Hitler quite always this limit and Hitler quite always this limit and Hitler quite brilliantly once he gets some power he brilliantly once he gets some power he brilliantly once he gets some power he takes it all complete. He completely takes it all complete. He completely takes it all complete. He completely emasculates Mussolini. And yeah, he emasculates Mussolini. And yeah, he emasculates Mussolini. And yeah, he likes him though. It's really weird.

likes him though. It's really weird. likes him though. It's really weird. Even when Muslim is about to fall in Even when Muslim is about to fall in Even when Muslim is about to fall in July 1943, he has a meeting at Feltree July 1943, he has a meeting at Feltree July 1943, he has a meeting at Feltree um just literally a few days um just literally a few days um just literally a few days before Muslini tumbles and he does that before Muslini tumbles and he does that before Muslini tumbles and he does that because he likes Mussolini. He likes him because he likes Mussolini. He likes him because he likes Mussolini. He likes him as a man and thinks he's being his as a man and thinks he's being his as a man and thinks he's being his friend and you know he respects him to a friend and you know he respects him to a friend and you know he respects him to a certain extent even though he's he he certain extent even though he's he he certain extent even though he's he he definitely views himself as top dog. definitely views himself as top dog. definitely views himself as top dog. Hitler does that is. Um, so it's kind of Hitler does that is. Um, so it's kind of Hitler does that is. Um, so it's kind of curious because I don't think Hitler curious because I don't think Hitler curious because I don't think Hitler particularly likes anyone really but but particularly likes anyone really but but particularly likes anyone really but but but he does seem to like Mussolini. But but he does seem to like Mussolini. But but he does seem to like Mussolini. But anyway, the problem with Mussolini is anyway, the problem with Mussolini is anyway, the problem with Mussolini is Muslim Muslim Italy is is very Muslim Muslim Italy is is very Muslim Muslim Italy is is very impoverished from the first world war, impoverished from the first world war, impoverished from the first world war, you know, and that of course leads to you know, and that of course leads to you know, and that of course leads to the rise of fascism and the overthrow of the rise of fascism and the overthrow of the rise of fascism and the overthrow of parliamentary democracy and and why parliamentary democracy and and why parliamentary democracy and and why Muslim takes place in the first place, Muslim takes place in the first place, Muslim takes place in the first place, you know, again, it's that kind of you know, again, it's that kind of you know, again, it's that kind of there's been this terrible disruption, there's been this terrible disruption, there's been this terrible disruption, there's been financial there's been financial there's been financial crisis that leads to kind of people crisis that leads to kind of people crisis that leads to kind of people looking at an alternative. You know, looking at an alternative. You know, looking at an alternative. You know, what's the alternative? Well, Mussolini what's the alternative? Well, Mussolini what's the alternative? Well, Mussolini is going, you know, we can be proud is going, you know, we can be proud is going, you know, we can be proud Italians again. lots of chess thumping, Italians again. lots of chess thumping, Italians again. lots of chess thumping, you know, wearing great uniforms, all you know, wearing great uniforms, all you know, wearing great uniforms, all the rest of it. People kind of think, the rest of it. People kind of think, the rest of it. People kind of think, well, you know, I have a piece of that well, you know, I have a piece of that well, you know, I have a piece of that and it kind of works and, you know, and it kind of works and, you know, and it kind of works and, you know, preferably the trains work on time under preferably the trains work on time under preferably the trains work on time under him and and so on and so forth. But he him and and so on and so forth. But he him and and so on and so forth. But he just gets ahead of himself, you know, just gets ahead of himself, you know, just gets ahead of himself, you know, and and actually the writings on the war and and actually the writings on the war and and actually the writings on the war in 1945 when he goes into Abiscinia and in 1945 when he goes into Abiscinia and in 1945 when he goes into Abiscinia and and you know, again, sort of what and you know, again, sort of what and you know, again, sort of what effectively are kind effectively are kind effectively are kind of by first world European standards of by first world European standards of by first world European standards privitive tribesmen in in in Abbiscinia.

privitive tribesmen in in in Abbiscinia. privitive tribesmen in in in Abbiscinia. You know, they they have quite a tough You know, they they have quite a tough You know, they they have quite a tough fight there. you know, they they do fight there. you know, they they do fight there. you know, they they do prevail, but but it's not a complete prevail, but but it's not a complete prevail, but but it's not a complete walkover, and they get a bit of a bloody walkover, and they get a bit of a bloody walkover, and they get a bit of a bloody nose at times, and they shouldn't have nose at times, and they shouldn't have nose at times, and they shouldn't have done, and they're just not ready. They done, and they're just not ready. They done, and they're just not ready. They don't have the industry, you know, don't have the industry, you know, don't have the industry, you know, they're they're tied up into the they're they're tied up into the they're they're tied up into the Mediterranean. They don't have access to Mediterranean. They don't have access to Mediterranean. They don't have access to the world's oceans. They do have some the world's oceans. They do have some the world's oceans. They do have some merchant shipping, but not a huge merchant shipping, but not a huge merchant shipping, but not a huge amount. Um, you know, they just don't amount. Um, you know, they just don't amount. Um, you know, they just don't have what is required. They don't have what is required. They don't have what is required. They don't they're dependent on Britain for coal. they're dependent on Britain for coal. they're dependent on Britain for coal. Britain is the leading coal exporter in Britain is the leading coal exporter in Britain is the leading coal exporter in the world in the 1930s. the world in the 1930s. the world in the 1930s. So Britain's approach to fascist Spain So Britain's approach to fascist Spain So Britain's approach to fascist Spain and approach to fascist Italy has been and approach to fascist Italy has been and approach to fascist Italy has been very much sort of stick and carrot. It's very much sort of stick and carrot. It's very much sort of stick and carrot. It's like, you know, we'll let you do what like, you know, we'll let you do what like, you know, we'll let you do what you do as long as you kind of stay in you do as long as you kind of stay in you do as long as you kind of stay in your box and and you know, we'll your box and and you know, we'll your box and and you know, we'll continue to provide you with supplies continue to provide you with supplies continue to provide you with supplies and coal and whatever is you need as and coal and whatever is you need as and coal and whatever is you need as long as you long as you long as you don't kind of go too far. And so that's don't kind of go too far. And so that's don't kind of go too far. And so that's why Mussolini is very anxious in 1938 why Mussolini is very anxious in 1938 why Mussolini is very anxious in 1938 and again in 1939 to kind of be the and again in 1939 to kind of be the and again in 1939 to kind of be the power broker and kind of not let Germany power broker and kind of not let Germany power broker and kind of not let Germany go to war. But Germany's just, you know, go to war. But Germany's just, you know, go to war. But Germany's just, you know, they they signed the the Axis Pact of they they signed the the Axis Pact of they they signed the the Axis Pact of Steel in May 1939 where they become Steel in May 1939 where they become Steel in May 1939 where they become formal allies. This is Hitler and um formal allies. This is Hitler and um formal allies. This is Hitler and um Mussolini, Italy and Germany. But it's Mussolini, Italy and Germany. But it's Mussolini, Italy and Germany. But it's always a very very unequal partnership always a very very unequal partnership always a very very unequal partnership right from the word go. One of the right from the word go. One of the right from the word go. One of the reasons Mussolini signs it is because he reasons Mussolini signs it is because he reasons Mussolini signs it is because he fears that Germany has designs on Italy.

fears that Germany has designs on Italy. fears that Germany has designs on Italy. Yeah. It's not because he thinks, "Oh, Yeah. It's not because he thinks, "Oh, Yeah. It's not because he thinks, "Oh, these guys are great. You know, they're these guys are great. You know, they're these guys are great. You know, they're our natural bedfellows." It's so that he our natural bedfellows." It's so that he our natural bedfellows." It's so that he can what what it's a mutually convenient can what what it's a mutually convenient can what what it's a mutually convenient pact whereby Germany gets on with pact whereby Germany gets on with pact whereby Germany gets on with whatever it wants to do up in Northern whatever it wants to do up in Northern whatever it wants to do up in Northern Europe and Eastern Europe. Italy is Europe and Eastern Europe. Italy is Europe and Eastern Europe. Italy is given a free hand to do whatever it given a free hand to do whatever it given a free hand to do whatever it wants to do. They'll just kind of watch wants to do. They'll just kind of watch wants to do. They'll just kind of watch each other's backs. They have borders, each other's backs. They have borders, each other's backs. They have borders, you know, Austria and and Italy border you know, Austria and and Italy border you know, Austria and and Italy border one another. Um, and they'll just do one another. Um, and they'll just do one another. Um, and they'll just do their own thing and they'll kind of help their own thing and they'll kind of help their own thing and they'll kind of help each other out with supplies and stuff. each other out with supplies and stuff. each other out with supplies and stuff. Um but but basically they won't they'll Um but but basically they won't they'll Um but but basically they won't they'll they'll be their own it's it's a kind of they'll be their own it's it's a kind of they'll be their own it's it's a kind of marriage of convenience. You know marriage of convenience. You know marriage of convenience. You know they're never expecting to be fighting they're never expecting to be fighting they're never expecting to be fighting alongside each other on the battlefield. alongside each other on the battlefield. alongside each other on the battlefield. Not really. There is a kind of Not really. There is a kind of Not really. There is a kind of obligation to do so but but it's it's an obligation to do so but but it's it's an obligation to do so but but it's it's an obligation with no expectation of ever obligation with no expectation of ever obligation with no expectation of ever actually happening. And so from actually happening. And so from actually happening. And so from Muslimini's point of view the pact still Muslimini's point of view the pact still Muslimini's point of view the pact still is is kind of you know it's just sailing is is kind of you know it's just sailing is is kind of you know it's just sailing your flag to one particular mass and your flag to one particular mass and your flag to one particular mass and kind of trying to cover your cover your kind of trying to cover your cover your kind of trying to cover your cover your back. And so long as he plays his cards back. And so long as he plays his cards back. And so long as he plays his cards right, you know, he can he can still get right, you know, he can he can still get right, you know, he can he can still get his coal supplies from Britain. He his coal supplies from Britain. He his coal supplies from Britain. He doesn't have to worry about that. You doesn't have to worry about that. You doesn't have to worry about that. You know, the pctor still doesn't make any know, the pctor still doesn't make any know, the pctor still doesn't make any difference to that. The the problem for difference to that. The the problem for difference to that. The the problem for him is is that in June 1940, he thinks him is is that in June 1940, he thinks him is is that in June 1940, he thinks that France is about to be defeated and that France is about to be defeated and that France is about to be defeated and that Britain will surely follow. And so that Britain will surely follow. And so that Britain will surely follow. And so he thinks, "Ah, I've got some rich he thinks, "Ah, I've got some rich he thinks, "Ah, I've got some rich pickings. I can take Malta. I can take pickings. I can take Malta. I can take pickings. I can take Malta. I can take British possessions. I can overrun British possessions. I can overrun British possessions. I can overrun Egypt. And you know, now is my time. But Egypt. And you know, now is my time. But Egypt. And you know, now is my time. But I I also need to kind of join the fight I I also need to kind of join the fight I I also need to kind of join the fight before France is completely out of the before France is completely out of the before France is completely out of the fight. Otherwise, it looks like I'm a fight. Otherwise, it looks like I'm a fight. Otherwise, it looks like I'm a Johnny come lately and I won't I won't Johnny come lately and I won't I won't Johnny come lately and I won't I won't get those spoils because the Germans get those spoils because the Germans get those spoils because the Germans will go, "Yeah, you can't have all this

will go, "Yeah, you can't have all this will go, "Yeah, you can't have all this stuff. You've turned up too late. You stuff. You've turned up too late. You stuff. You've turned up too late. You need to be in the fight." So, he does it need to be in the fight." So, he does it need to be in the fight." So, he does it what he thinks is the perfect timing. what he thinks is the perfect timing. what he thinks is the perfect timing. And it turns out to be a catastrophic And it turns out to be a catastrophic And it turns out to be a catastrophic timing because, of course, Britain timing because, of course, Britain timing because, of course, Britain doesn't exit the fight. You know, doesn't exit the fight. You know, doesn't exit the fight. You know, Britain is still there. And you know by Britain is still there. And you know by Britain is still there. And you know by February 1941 a very very tiny British February 1941 a very very tiny British February 1941 a very very tiny British army in Egypt has overrun you know two army in Egypt has overrun you know two army in Egypt has overrun you know two entire Italian armies and taken 133,000 entire Italian armies and taken 133,000 entire Italian armies and taken 133,000 prisoners in North Africa. So you prisoners in North Africa. So you prisoners in North Africa. So you mentioned in the sea uh who were the mentioned in the sea uh who were the mentioned in the sea uh who were the dominant armies who were who was dominant armies who were who was dominant armies who were who was dominant in the air? Well in the air it dominant in the air? Well in the air it dominant in the air? Well in the air it has to be the Luftwaffer uh and it is has to be the Luftwaffer uh and it is has to be the Luftwaffer uh and it is also the Imperial Japanese both in the also the Imperial Japanese both in the also the Imperial Japanese both in the Imperial Japanese Navy and the Imperial Imperial Japanese Navy and the Imperial Imperial Japanese Navy and the Imperial Japanese Army. They both have air forces Japanese Army. They both have air forces Japanese Army. They both have air forces and one of the reasons that is because and one of the reasons that is because and one of the reasons that is because the quality of the pilots in Japan is the quality of the pilots in Japan is the quality of the pilots in Japan is extremely high because it's so difficult extremely high because it's so difficult extremely high because it's so difficult to get to get to the top position. You to get to get to the top position. You to get to get to the top position. You know, you are going to your frontline know, you are going to your frontline know, you are going to your frontline squadrons with at least 500 hours in squadrons with at least 500 hours in squadrons with at least 500 hours in your log book. To put that into some your log book. To put that into some your log book. To put that into some perspective, you know, a British RAF or perspective, you know, a British RAF or perspective, you know, a British RAF or Luftwaffer pilot would be joining their Luftwaffer pilot would be joining their Luftwaffer pilot would be joining their frontline squadrons with 150 to 170 frontline squadrons with 150 to 170 frontline squadrons with 150 to 170 hours in the log book. So it is that hours in the log book. So it is that hours in the log book. So it is that these guys are disciplined to within an these guys are disciplined to within an these guys are disciplined to within an inch of their lives. Um they are you inch of their lives. Um they are you inch of their lives. Um they are you know there are academic tests as well as know there are academic tests as well as know there are academic tests as well as physical endurance tests. You know they physical endurance tests. You know they physical endurance tests. You know they are the elite of the elite and they are are the elite of the elite and they are are the elite of the elite and they are extremely good. The problem they have is extremely good. The problem they have is extremely good. The problem they have is that there is a good number of them but that there is a good number of them but that there is a good number of them but there's not that many. The Luftwaffer is there's not that many. The Luftwaffer is there's not that many. The Luftwaffer is is the largest air force in the world in is the largest air force in the world in is the largest air force in the world in 1939, but it is already at a parity when 1939, but it is already at a parity when 1939, but it is already at a parity when in in aircraft production with Britain.

in in aircraft production with Britain. in in aircraft production with Britain. Um, Um, Um, and the French have a kind of similar and the French have a kind of similar and the French have a kind of similar size army, but they're very very badly size army, but they're very very badly size army, but they're very very badly organized. So, they're also they're organized. So, they're also they're organized. So, they're also they're organized into different regions and organized into different regions and organized into different regions and they one region doesn't re is not really they one region doesn't re is not really they one region doesn't re is not really talking to another. And one of the talking to another. And one of the talking to another. And one of the problems that when case yellow, the problems that when case yellow, the problems that when case yellow, the invasion of German invasion of the west invasion of German invasion of the west invasion of German invasion of the west starts, France's army of the air is starts, France's army of the air is starts, France's army of the air is spread throughout France and has its own spread throughout France and has its own spread throughout France and has its own little area. You have one bunch of, you little area. You have one bunch of, you little area. You have one bunch of, you know, fighters and bombers in that block know, fighters and bombers in that block know, fighters and bombers in that block in, you know, in the Marseilles area. in, you know, in the Marseilles area. in, you know, in the Marseilles area. You have another block in kind of, you You have another block in kind of, you You have another block in kind of, you know, on the Britany coast and you have know, on the Britany coast and you have know, on the Britany coast and you have another block in around Sudan and you another block in around Sudan and you another block in around Sudan and you have another that. So, so consequently, have another that. So, so consequently, have another that. So, so consequently, they're never be they're never able to they're never be they're never able to they're never be they're never able to kind of bring their full strength to kind of bring their full strength to kind of bring their full strength to bear. So it's although although they've bear. So it's although although they've bear. So it's although although they've both got about three and a half thousand both got about three and a half thousand both got about three and a half thousand aircraft on paper and about two and a aircraft on paper and about two and a aircraft on paper and about two and a half thousand that are fit to fly on any half thousand that are fit to fly on any half thousand that are fit to fly on any one given day, the Luftwaffer because one given day, the Luftwaffer because one given day, the Luftwaffer because they're the aggressor can choose how they're the aggressor can choose how they're the aggressor can choose how they mass their aircraft and where they they mass their aircraft and where they they mass their aircraft and where they attack and and at when. So in other attack and and at when. So in other attack and and at when. So in other words, you can send Luwaff can send words, you can send Luwaff can send words, you can send Luwaff can send overwhelming amounts of bombers and overwhelming amounts of bombers and overwhelming amounts of bombers and fighter planes and pulverize a French fighter planes and pulverize a French fighter planes and pulverize a French airfield and catch them napping. Because airfield and catch them napping. Because airfield and catch them napping. Because the French don't have a defense system, the French don't have a defense system, the French don't have a defense system, they can't see whether they're coming.

they can't see whether they're coming. they can't see whether they're coming. So their only hope is to kind of take So their only hope is to kind of take So their only hope is to kind of take off and just hope they stoogge around off and just hope they stoogge around off and just hope they stoogge around the sky and hope they bump into some the sky and hope they bump into some the sky and hope they bump into some Luftwuffer. And of course that's Luftwuffer. And of course that's Luftwuffer. And of course that's inherently inefficient and they get, you inherently inefficient and they get, you inherently inefficient and they get, you know, they get destroyed. They get know, they get destroyed. They get know, they get destroyed. They get destroyed in in penny packets rather destroyed in in penny packets rather destroyed in in penny packets rather than on mass. difference with the RAF is than on mass. difference with the RAF is than on mass. difference with the RAF is is the RAF is not done on an air force is the RAF is not done on an air force is the RAF is not done on an air force basis where you have each air core or basis where you have each air core or basis where you have each air core or air fleet has a handful of bombers, a air fleet has a handful of bombers, a air fleet has a handful of bombers, a handful of um fighters, a handful of handful of um fighters, a handful of handful of um fighters, a handful of reconnaissance planes. They have reconnaissance planes. They have reconnaissance planes. They have different commands. So they have bomber different commands. So they have bomber different commands. So they have bomber command, fighter command, training command, fighter command, training command, fighter command, training command, cursal command, and they all command, cursal command, and they all command, cursal command, and they all have very specific roles. So they're have very specific roles. So they're have very specific roles. So they're they're structured in a completely they're structured in a completely they're structured in a completely different way. and the other and that's different way. and the other and that's different way. and the other and that's because they're an island nation um and because they're an island nation um and because they're an island nation um and because they see their role militarily because they see their role militarily because they see their role militarily in a in a in a different way and because in a in a in a different way and because in a in a in a different way and because the rearming that Britain has done in the rearming that Britain has done in the rearming that Britain has done in the 1930s is all about defense. It is the 1930s is all about defense. It is the 1930s is all about defense. It is not about aggression at this point, not not about aggression at this point, not not about aggression at this point, not about taking it to the enemy. It is it about taking it to the enemy. It is it about taking it to the enemy. It is it is showing you're tough but also first is showing you're tough but also first is showing you're tough but also first and foremost getting your ducks in a row and foremost getting your ducks in a row and foremost getting your ducks in a row and making sure that you don't get and making sure that you don't get and making sure that you don't get defeated. So this is the principle defeated. So this is the principle defeated. So this is the principle behind the the first the world's first behind the the first the world's first behind the the first the world's first fully coordinated air defense system fully coordinated air defense system fully coordinated air defense system which is the radar chain it is the which is the radar chain it is the which is the radar chain it is the observer core it is control rooms it is observer core it is control rooms it is observer core it is control rooms it is interesting technology such as interesting technology such as interesting technology such as identification friend or foe IFFF which identification friend or foe IFFF which identification friend or foe IFFF which is where you have a little pulse which is where you have a little pulse which is where you have a little pulse which so you have these control rooms and you so you have these control rooms and you so you have these control rooms and you have a map table and you have a tote have a map table and you have a tote have a map table and you have a tote board in front of you where you can see board in front of you where you can see board in front of you where you can see what squadrons are airborne what state what squadrons are airborne what state what squadrons are airborne what state of readiness they're at you know whether of readiness they're at you know whether of readiness they're at you know whether they're engaging the enemy little lights they're engaging the enemy little lights they're engaging the enemy little lights come on and show you you can see weather come on and show you you can see weather come on and show you you can see weather maps you can see see the cloud ceiling.

maps you can see see the cloud ceiling. maps you can see see the cloud ceiling. You see all of that at a glance. Then You see all of that at a glance. Then You see all of that at a glance. Then you're on a dis and then down in front you're on a dis and then down in front you're on a dis and then down in front of you is a massive great map of of you is a massive great map of of you is a massive great map of southern England. You've got crooious southern England. You've got crooious southern England. You've got crooious sort of moving plots. So you can through sort of moving plots. So you can through sort of moving plots. So you can through a combination of radar which picks up a a combination of radar which picks up a a combination of radar which picks up a kind of a rough idea of what's coming kind of a rough idea of what's coming kind of a rough idea of what's coming towards you combined with the observer towards you combined with the observer towards you combined with the observer core you have overlapping observer core core you have overlapping observer core core you have overlapping observer core stations all over Britain covering every stations all over Britain covering every stations all over Britain covering every single inch of airspace over Britain single inch of airspace over Britain single inch of airspace over Britain looking up into the air and seeing how looking up into the air and seeing how looking up into the air and seeing how many aircraft there are a and at what many aircraft there are a and at what many aircraft there are a and at what height they are and you have little um height they are and you have little um height they are and you have little um thing called a panagramraph which is a a thing called a panagramraph which is a a thing called a panagramraph which is a a piece of equipment which helps you judge piece of equipment which helps you judge piece of equipment which helps you judge um altitude. You then ring through that um altitude. You then ring through that um altitude. You then ring through that that all comes into the control room that all comes into the control room that all comes into the control room along with the information from the along with the information from the along with the information from the radar stations which is going into a radar stations which is going into a radar stations which is going into a single filter room at at fighter command single filter room at at fighter command single filter room at at fighter command headquarters which is then being pushed headquarters which is then being pushed headquarters which is then being pushed straight back out to the sector straight back out to the sector straight back out to the sector stations. So this information is being stations. So this information is being stations. So this information is being updated all the time. So you have a plot updated all the time. So you have a plot updated all the time. So you have a plot and it looks like it might be you know and it looks like it might be you know and it looks like it might be you know enemy bombers 30 plus for example that's enemy bombers 30 plus for example that's enemy bombers 30 plus for example that's constantly being adapted. So as more constantly being adapted. So as more constantly being adapted. So as more information comes in, you will change information comes in, you will change information comes in, you will change that and then you can see that actually that and then you can see that actually that and then you can see that actually it's only 20 aircraft or 22 aircraft or it's only 20 aircraft or 22 aircraft or it's only 20 aircraft or 22 aircraft or whatever. So you're updating that and whatever. So you're updating that and whatever. So you're updating that and that little figure is put on the on your that little figure is put on the on your that little figure is put on the on your little plot and moved across and so you little plot and moved across and so you little plot and moved across and so you can see and then because you can can see and then because you can can see and then because you can identify your own aircraft, you can then identify your own aircraft, you can then identify your own aircraft, you can then see where they are moving and you're see where they are moving and you're see where they are moving and you're also on um the guys in the air are on also on um the guys in the air are on also on um the guys in the air are on the radio to ground controllers who are the radio to ground controllers who are the radio to ground controllers who are in these control rooms and they're in these control rooms and they're in these control rooms and they're saying okay well if you proceed at you saying okay well if you proceed at you saying okay well if you proceed at you know angels 18 18,000 ft you know on a

know angels 18 18,000 ft you know on a know angels 18 18,000 ft you know on a vector of you know vector of you know vector of you know 150° you should be seeing your enemy 150° you should be seeing your enemy 150° you should be seeing your enemy enemy bombing formation any moment now. enemy bombing formation any moment now. enemy bombing formation any moment now. And what that means is that you're not And what that means is that you're not And what that means is that you're not on the ground when the enemy are coming on the ground when the enemy are coming on the ground when the enemy are coming towards you with their bombers to hit towards you with their bombers to hit towards you with their bombers to hit your airfield, which means you're in the your airfield, which means you're in the your airfield, which means you're in the air. So that all they're doing is air. So that all they're doing is air. So that all they're doing is hitting a grass airfield, which you've hitting a grass airfield, which you've hitting a grass airfield, which you've already got bulldozers and diggers and already got bulldozers and diggers and already got bulldozers and diggers and graders and lots of scalpings and earth graders and lots of scalpings and earth graders and lots of scalpings and earth ready to fill in the potholes and it ready to fill in the potholes and it ready to fill in the potholes and it means you're good to go. And it means as means you're good to go. And it means as means you're good to go. And it means as a consequence of all that when the a consequence of all that when the a consequence of all that when the Germans do um launch their all-out Germans do um launch their all-out Germans do um launch their all-out assault on Adler Eagle Day on the 13th assault on Adler Eagle Day on the 13th assault on Adler Eagle Day on the 13th of August 1940, the British are ready. of August 1940, the British are ready. of August 1940, the British are ready. You know, they're they can see them You know, they're they can see them You know, they're they can see them coming. They know what to expect and coming. They know what to expect and coming. They know what to expect and they can anticipate. And it means that they can anticipate. And it means that they can anticipate. And it means that they're not being caught with their they're not being caught with their they're not being caught with their trousers down on the ground. And as a trousers down on the ground. And as a trousers down on the ground. And as a consequence of that, of the 138 consequence of that, of the 138 consequence of that, of the 138 airfields there are in um RAF airfields airfields there are in um RAF airfields airfields there are in um RAF airfields there are in Britain, only one of them there are in Britain, only one of them there are in Britain, only one of them is knocked out for more than 48 hours in is knocked out for more than 48 hours in is knocked out for more than 48 hours in the entire summer of 1940. And that's the entire summer of 1940. And that's the entire summer of 1940. And that's Manston on the tip of the Kent coast uh Manston on the tip of the Kent coast uh Manston on the tip of the Kent coast uh which is abandoned for the duration. So which is abandoned for the duration. So which is abandoned for the duration. So these are the two biggest air forces. So these are the two biggest air forces. So these are the two biggest air forces. So those are the two biggest air force. So those are the two biggest air force. So those are the two biggest air force. So Lufafa we should say German I mean Lufafa we should say German I mean Lufafa we should say German I mean they're like the they're like the they're like the uh the legendary the uh the legendary the uh the legendary the terrifying air force. They are maybe terrifying air force. They are maybe terrifying air force. They are maybe maybe they're slightly believing their maybe they're slightly believing their maybe they're slightly believing their own hype. There's no question about it.

own hype. There's no question about it. own hype. There's no question about it. Well the rest of the world is also Well the rest of the world is also Well the rest of the world is also right. They've just had it too easy. So right. They've just had it too easy. So right. They've just had it too easy. So they don't have they don't have ground they don't have they don't have ground they don't have they don't have ground controllers. They don't have an air controllers. They don't have an air controllers. They don't have an air defense system in in in Germany because defense system in in in Germany because defense system in in in Germany because why would you need an air defense why would you need an air defense why would you need an air defense system? We're going to be the aggressor. system? We're going to be the aggressor. system? We're going to be the aggressor. You know, there's no scenario where You know, there's no scenario where You know, there's no scenario where we'll have to defend the airspace of the we'll have to defend the airspace of the we'll have to defend the airspace of the Third Reich because we're on the Third Reich because we're on the Third Reich because we're on the offensive. So they just haven't prepared offensive. So they just haven't prepared offensive. So they just haven't prepared it. So there's that clash, the Battle of it. So there's that clash, the Battle of it. So there's that clash, the Battle of Britain, the clash of air forces. What Britain, the clash of air forces. What Britain, the clash of air forces. What explains the success of Britain in explains the success of Britain in explains the success of Britain in defending? Well, it's I mean you and defending? Well, it's I mean you and defending? Well, it's I mean you and everyone always says, you know, the the everyone always says, you know, the the everyone always says, you know, the the few were the last, you know, the last few were the last, you know, the last few were the last, you know, the last line of defense against the Nazi hordes line of defense against the Nazi hordes line of defense against the Nazi hordes and all this kind of stuff, and it's and all this kind of stuff, and it's and all this kind of stuff, and it's just it's all rubbish. They're the first just it's all rubbish. They're the first just it's all rubbish. They're the first line of defense. Second line of defense line of defense. Second line of defense line of defense. Second line of defense is the Royal Navy, which is the world's is the Royal Navy, which is the world's is the Royal Navy, which is the world's largest. And there is absolutely no largest. And there is absolutely no largest. And there is absolutely no chance on earth that a German invasion chance on earth that a German invasion chance on earth that a German invasion force made up of Ryan river force made up of Ryan river force made up of Ryan river barges, one of out of every three is barges, one of out of every three is barges, one of out of every three is motorized and the other two aren't, is motorized and the other two aren't, is motorized and the other two aren't, is ever going to get successfully across ever going to get successfully across ever going to get successfully across the English Channel. And even if they the English Channel. And even if they the English Channel. And even if they did, they will be repulsed. I mean, they did, they will be repulsed. I mean, they did, they will be repulsed. I mean, they just it's just no chance. And it is just it's just no chance. And it is just it's just no chance. And it is often forgotten that while the Lufra is often forgotten that while the Lufra is often forgotten that while the Lufra is coming over and bombing Britain every coming over and bombing Britain every coming over and bombing Britain every single day, so is the RAF going over and single day, so is the RAF going over and single day, so is the RAF going over and bombing Germany. And one of the problems bombing Germany. And one of the problems bombing Germany. And one of the problems that the Germans have is is that these that the Germans have is is that these that the Germans have is is that these bombers need fighter protection. You bombers need fighter protection. You bombers need fighter protection. You know, fighter planes are there to know, fighter planes are there to know, fighter planes are there to protect the bombers. And they don't have protect the bombers. And they don't have protect the bombers. And they don't have much fuel. And the Mesimmit 109E, the ME much fuel. And the Mesimmit 109E, the ME much fuel. And the Mesimmit 109E, the ME as a model is of of 1940 is the main as a model is of of 1940 is the main as a model is of of 1940 is the main stay of the German fighter force in the stay of the German fighter force in the stay of the German fighter force in the summer of 1940. And they don't have much

summer of 1940. And they don't have much summer of 1940. And they don't have much fuel. So they need to conserve their fuel. So they need to conserve their fuel. So they need to conserve their fuel which means they need to be as fuel which means they need to be as fuel which means they need to be as close to Britain as they possibly can close to Britain as they possibly can close to Britain as they possibly can which is why the majority of them are which is why the majority of them are which is why the majority of them are all in airfields which are hastily all in airfields which are hastily all in airfields which are hastily created in July 1940 following the fall created in July 1940 following the fall created in July 1940 following the fall of France in the Padacall which is the of France in the Padacall which is the of France in the Padacall which is the closest point you know that's where the closest point you know that's where the closest point you know that's where the channel is its narrowest and all the channel is its narrowest and all the channel is its narrowest and all the rest of it and also in the northern rest of it and also in the northern rest of it and also in the northern Normandy and that's where they're flying Normandy and that's where they're flying Normandy and that's where they're flying from but what that means is that even if from but what that means is that even if from but what that means is that even if you're completely rubbish bombing which you're completely rubbish bombing which you're completely rubbish bombing which the British are in 1940 they haven't the British are in 1940 they haven't the British are in 1940 they haven't developed those navigational aids that developed those navigational aids that developed those navigational aids that create untold accuracy by the end end of create untold accuracy by the end end of create untold accuracy by the end end of the war 1940 they don't they don't have the war 1940 they don't they don't have the war 1940 they don't they don't have that luxury it's a target-rich that luxury it's a target-rich that luxury it's a target-rich environment I mean you know you can environment I mean you know you can environment I mean you know you can barely miss if you go over to the aisle barely miss if you go over to the aisle barely miss if you go over to the aisle of you know the over to the paddala I of you know the over to the paddala I of you know the over to the paddala I mean it's literally it's just like one mean it's literally it's just like one mean it's literally it's just like one huge great kind of hub of of fighter huge great kind of hub of of fighter huge great kind of hub of of fighter airfields and consequently that means airfields and consequently that means airfields and consequently that means that every single German squadron which that every single German squadron which that every single German squadron which only is 12 airplanes strong on on only is 12 airplanes strong on on only is 12 airplanes strong on on establishment and very often even fewer establishment and very often even fewer establishment and very often even fewer than that always has to leave two than that always has to leave two than that always has to leave two airplanes behind to defend their own airplanes behind to defend their own airplanes behind to defend their own airfield and it's really interesting airfield and it's really interesting airfield and it's really interesting when you look at kind of prison of war when you look at kind of prison of war when you look at kind of prison of war statements from from Lufka at Crown Crew statements from from Lufka at Crown Crew statements from from Lufka at Crown Crew that have been downed. They're all that have been downed. They're all that have been downed. They're all bugged at a holding place called Trent bugged at a holding place called Trent bugged at a holding place called Trent Park. You can see the transcripts of Park. You can see the transcripts of Park. You can see the transcripts of these conversations. They're all going these conversations. They're all going these conversations. They're all going about how annoying it was that the RAF about how annoying it was that the RAF about how annoying it was that the RAF were over every night and they can't were over every night and they can't were over every night and they can't sleep and you know when they if only sleep and you know when they if only sleep and you know when they if only they just shut up and leave them alone they just shut up and leave them alone they just shut up and leave them alone and not bomb them. You know, this is and not bomb them. You know, this is and not bomb them. You know, this is just part of the narrative of the battle just part of the narrative of the battle just part of the narrative of the battle of Britain that's completely left out.

of Britain that's completely left out. of Britain that's completely left out. It's always the stocky, you know, the It's always the stocky, you know, the It's always the stocky, you know, the plucky few against the kind of the, you plucky few against the kind of the, you plucky few against the kind of the, you know, the Nazi hordes and all the rest know, the Nazi hordes and all the rest know, the Nazi hordes and all the rest of it. And it's just, it's a complete of it. And it's just, it's a complete of it. And it's just, it's a complete misnomer. And by that time, aircraft misnomer. And by that time, aircraft misnomer. And by that time, aircraft production in Britain is massively production in Britain is massively production in Britain is massively outpacing the Germans. Um, and the best outpacing the Germans. Um, and the best outpacing the Germans. Um, and the best ratio that the Germans achieve in 1940 ratio that the Germans achieve in 1940 ratio that the Germans achieve in 1940 is July 1940 when the British produced is July 1940 when the British produced is July 1940 when the British produced 496 new Huracans and Spitfire single 496 new Huracans and Spitfire single 496 new Huracans and Spitfire single engine fighters and um the Germans only engine fighters and um the Germans only engine fighters and um the Germans only produced 240 single engine fighters. produced 240 single engine fighters. produced 240 single engine fighters. That's the best ratio. And of course, That's the best ratio. And of course, That's the best ratio. And of course, you know, that is the British you know, that is the British you know, that is the British outproducing the Germans 2 to1. And what outproducing the Germans 2 to1. And what outproducing the Germans 2 to1. And what that means is by the end of October 1940 that means is by the end of October 1940 that means is by the end of October 1940 when the battle of Britain is sort of, when the battle of Britain is sort of, when the battle of Britain is sort of, you know, officially designated as being you know, officially designated as being you know, officially designated as being over. Um the single engine fighter force over. Um the single engine fighter force over. Um the single engine fighter force of Luwaffer is less than 200 from 750 or of Luwaffer is less than 200 from 750 or of Luwaffer is less than 200 from 750 or whatever it was in beginning of July. whatever it was in beginning of July. whatever it was in beginning of July. Whereas the British fighter force had Whereas the British fighter force had Whereas the British fighter force had been 650 or whatever at the beginning of been 650 or whatever at the beginning of been 650 or whatever at the beginning of July is now well over 750. And Britain July is now well over 750. And Britain July is now well over 750. And Britain is out producing. Yeah. by to a massive is out producing. Yeah. by to a massive is out producing. Yeah. by to a massive degree and that that continues and you degree and that that continues and you degree and that that continues and you know that is a a ratio that just know that is a a ratio that just know that is a a ratio that just increases as the war progresses. I mean increases as the war progresses. I mean increases as the war progresses. I mean Britain produces 132 and a half thousand Britain produces 132 and a half thousand Britain produces 132 and a half thousand aircraft in the Second World War.

aircraft in the Second World War. aircraft in the Second World War. America produces 315,000. America produces 315,000. America produces 315,000. So why is there this legend of the So why is there this legend of the So why is there this legend of the Luftwafa? Well because it's the Luftwafa? Well because it's the Luftwafa? Well because it's the spearhead of the Blitz Creek. So it has spearhead of the Blitz Creek. So it has spearhead of the Blitz Creek. So it has to do with the Blitz Creek. It's to do to do with the Blitz Creek. It's to do to do with the Blitz Creek. It's to do with the Blitz Creek. the the the Lufa with the Blitz Creek. the the the Lufa with the Blitz Creek. the the the Lufa becomes the kind of the bogeymen of the becomes the kind of the bogeymen of the becomes the kind of the bogeymen of the Third Reich. You know, they're blamed Third Reich. You know, they're blamed Third Reich. You know, they're blamed for everything, but that's because for everything, but that's because for everything, but that's because they're completely abused. They're the they're completely abused. They're the they're completely abused. They're the only part of of the Third Reich's armed only part of of the Third Reich's armed only part of of the Third Reich's armed services. The only part of the Vermach, services. The only part of the Vermach, services. The only part of the Vermach, the Vermac being the Navy, the Army, and the Vermac being the Navy, the Army, and the Vermac being the Navy, the Army, and the Air Force. Um, that is in the Air Force. Um, that is in the Air Force. Um, that is in constant use the whole time or constant constant use the whole time or constant constant use the whole time or constant abuse, I should say. In Britain and abuse, I should say. In Britain and abuse, I should say. In Britain and America, they rotate their their pilots America, they rotate their their pilots America, they rotate their their pilots really really carefully. By the time really really carefully. By the time really really carefully. By the time that but the that that you know you got that but the that that you know you got that but the that that you know you got the eighth fighter command, for example, the eighth fighter command, for example, the eighth fighter command, for example, part of the mighty eighth, the eighth part of the mighty eighth, the eighth part of the mighty eighth, the eighth air force operating in Britain. By the air force operating in Britain. By the air force operating in Britain. By the by by the end of 1943, you would have in by by the end of 1943, you would have in by by the end of 1943, you would have in a squadron that would have 16. You would a squadron that would have 16. You would a squadron that would have 16. You would never have more than 16 airborne from a never have more than 16 airborne from a never have more than 16 airborne from a squadron at any one time. squadron at any one time. squadron at any one time. you would have 40 to 45 pilots for to you would have 40 to 45 pilots for to you would have 40 to 45 pilots for to service 16 in the air and similar number service 16 in the air and similar number service 16 in the air and similar number of aircraft which means you're not of aircraft which means you're not of aircraft which means you're not overusing these guys and what would overusing these guys and what would overusing these guys and what would happen by that stage of the war by 1943 happen by that stage of the war by 1943 happen by that stage of the war by 1943 you know a young fighter pilot coming to you know a young fighter pilot coming to you know a young fighter pilot coming to a to a thunderbolt squadron or a Mustang a to a thunderbolt squadron or a Mustang a to a thunderbolt squadron or a Mustang squadron for example um at the end of squadron for example um at the end of squadron for example um at the end of 1943 beginning of 1944 he'd have 350 1943 beginning of 1944 he'd have 350 1943 beginning of 1944 he'd have 350 hours of of consecutive flying because hours of of consecutive flying because hours of of consecutive flying because you can train in in America in Florida you can train in in America in Florida you can train in in America in Florida or California or Texas or or wherever or California or Texas or or wherever or California or Texas or or wherever However, you've got you you you can However, you've got you you you can However, you've got you you you can process many many more people because process many many more people because process many many more people because the training is much more intense

the training is much more intense the training is much more intense because you've got clear skies. So, because you've got clear skies. So, because you've got clear skies. So, you're not it's not a question of of oh, you're not it's not a question of of oh, you're not it's not a question of of oh, we'd like to take you out out Fritz this we'd like to take you out out Fritz this we'd like to take you out out Fritz this morning, but you know, it's a bit cloudy morning, but you know, it's a bit cloudy morning, but you know, it's a bit cloudy and and oh, the RAF are over or you and and oh, the RAF are over or you and and oh, the RAF are over or you know, Y Air Force are over so we can't know, Y Air Force are over so we can't know, Y Air Force are over so we can't fly today. So, in Germany, pilot fly today. So, in Germany, pilot fly today. So, in Germany, pilot training is constant, air crew train is training is constant, air crew train is training is constant, air crew train is constantly being interrupted by by the constantly being interrupted by by the constantly being interrupted by by the war, by shortage of fuel, by inclement war, by shortage of fuel, by inclement war, by shortage of fuel, by inclement weather, etc., etc. In America, you have weather, etc., etc. In America, you have weather, etc., etc. In America, you have none of those problems. And Britain, none of those problems. And Britain, none of those problems. And Britain, because of his global reach, also has because of his global reach, also has because of his global reach, also has training bases in in what was Rhodesia, training bases in in what was Rhodesia, training bases in in what was Rhodesia, now Zimbabwe, in South Africa, um, in now Zimbabwe, in South Africa, um, in now Zimbabwe, in South Africa, um, in Canada as well. And so, you're able to Canada as well. And so, you're able to Canada as well. And so, you're able to process these these guys much better. process these these guys much better. process these these guys much better. You're able to give them more training. You're able to give them more training. You're able to give them more training. So, when they come, they're the absolute So, when they come, they're the absolute So, when they come, they're the absolute the finished article as pilots. What the finished article as pilots. What the finished article as pilots. What they're not the finished article as is, they're not the finished article as is, they're not the finished article as is, say, a bomber pilot or as a fighter say, a bomber pilot or as a fighter say, a bomber pilot or as a fighter pilot. But that's okay because you join pilot. But that's okay because you join pilot. But that's okay because you join your squadron of 40 other guys for 16 your squadron of 40 other guys for 16 your squadron of 40 other guys for 16 airborne. and the old hands kind of take airborne. and the old hands kind of take airborne. and the old hands kind of take you up a few times. So you arrive at I you up a few times. So you arrive at I you up a few times. So you arrive at I don't know let's say some airfield in in don't know let's say some airfield in in don't know let's say some airfield in in Suffukk in East Angler in England and Suffukk in East Angler in England and Suffukk in East Angler in England and you know you'll have 10 days to two you know you'll have 10 days to two you know you'll have 10 days to two weeks acclimatizing getting used to it weeks acclimatizing getting used to it weeks acclimatizing getting used to it the you know the old hands will put you the you know the old hands will put you the you know the old hands will put you through your paces give you some trip through your paces give you some trip through your paces give you some trip tips you can pick their brains during tips you can pick their brains during tips you can pick their brains during kind of while you're having some cow and kind of while you're having some cow and kind of while you're having some cow and and listen in on some briefings then the and listen in on some briefings then the and listen in on some briefings then the first mission you do will be a milk run first mission you do will be a milk run first mission you do will be a milk run over to France where the danger is kind over to France where the danger is kind over to France where the danger is kind of pretty minimal you know and and you of pretty minimal you know and and you of pretty minimal you know and and you can build up your experience so by the can build up your experience so by the can build up your experience so by the time you're actually sent over on a time you're actually sent over on a time you're actually sent over on a mission to Berlin or or Bremen or you mission to Berlin or or Bremen or you mission to Berlin or or Bremen or you know the RU or whatever you're know the RU or whatever you're know the RU or whatever you're absolutely the business so qualitatively

absolutely the business so qualitatively absolutely the business so qualitatively and quantitatively you are just vastly and quantitatively you are just vastly and quantitatively you are just vastly superior to anything the Luftwaffer has superior to anything the Luftwaffer has superior to anything the Luftwaffer has got the Luftwaffer by that stage in got the Luftwaffer by that stage in got the Luftwaffer by that stage in contrast 1940 new pilots coming to contrast 1940 new pilots coming to contrast 1940 new pilots coming to frontline squadrons with you 150 170 frontline squadrons with you 150 170 frontline squadrons with you 150 170 hours on their in their log books less hours on their in their log books less hours on their in their log books less than 100 90 92 hours something like that than 100 90 92 hours something like that than 100 90 92 hours something like that it's not enough and and they're just it's not enough and and they're just it's not enough and and they're just being flung straight into battle and being flung straight into battle and being flung straight into battle and they're getting absolutely slaughtered they're getting absolutely slaughtered they're getting absolutely slaughtered and they're also because their machines and they're also because their machines and they're also because their machines are quite complicated, there's no are quite complicated, there's no are quite complicated, there's no two-seeers really. So, no two-seater two-seeers really. So, no two-seater two-seeers really. So, no two-seater trainers. So, the first time you flying trainers. So, the first time you flying trainers. So, the first time you flying in your FAWolf 190 or your Mess 109, in your FAWolf 190 or your Mess 109, in your FAWolf 190 or your Mess 109, it's this horrendous leap of faith which it's this horrendous leap of faith which it's this horrendous leap of faith which you as a young bright Luftwuffer fighter you as a young bright Luftwuffer fighter you as a young bright Luftwuffer fighter pilot know that you're not ready for pilot know that you're not ready for pilot know that you're not ready for this and it can bite you. And something this and it can bite you. And something this and it can bite you. And something like a like a like a um a meshesmith 109 has a very high wing um a meshesmith 109 has a very high wing um a meshesmith 109 has a very high wing loading. So it's very maneuverable in loading. So it's very maneuverable in loading. So it's very maneuverable in the air, but it's got this tiny wings. the air, but it's got this tiny wings. the air, but it's got this tiny wings. It's got this incredible torque. This It's got this incredible torque. This It's got this incredible torque. This deep Ben's DB 605 engine with this huge deep Ben's DB 605 engine with this huge deep Ben's DB 605 engine with this huge amount of torque and it just wants to amount of torque and it just wants to amount of torque and it just wants to flip you over. So if you're not used to flip you over. So if you're not used to flip you over. So if you're not used to it, and it's got a narrow undercarriage it, and it's got a narrow undercarriage it, and it's got a narrow undercarriage as well. If you're not used to it, you as well. If you're not used to it, you as well. If you're not used to it, you you could just crash. So, in the first you could just crash. So, in the first you could just crash. So, in the first couple of months of 1944, they lose couple of months of 1944, they lose couple of months of 1944, they lose something like 2,400 aircraft in the air something like 2,400 aircraft in the air something like 2,400 aircraft in the air and and pilots and about 3,400 are and and pilots and about 3,400 are and and pilots and about 3,400 are accidents. So, it has to do with accidents. So, it has to do with accidents. So, it has to do with training really. Yeah. Not training training really. Yeah. Not training training really. Yeah. Not training enough. It's training and resources and enough. It's training and resources and enough. It's training and resources and supply. And the Second World War, more supply. And the Second World War, more supply. And the Second World War, more than any other conflict, is a war of than any other conflict, is a war of than any other conflict, is a war of numbers. There are differences that

numbers. There are differences that numbers. There are differences that decisions that generals can make. There decisions that generals can make. There decisions that generals can make. There are um moments where particular are um moments where particular are um moments where particular brilliance and bravery can seize the brilliance and bravery can seize the brilliance and bravery can seize the day, take the bridge, you know, hold the day, take the bridge, you know, hold the day, take the bridge, you know, hold the enemy at bay or whatever. But enemy at bay or whatever. But enemy at bay or whatever. But ultimately, you know, you're talking ultimately, you know, you're talking ultimately, you know, you're talking about differences which might make a about differences which might make a about differences which might make a month's difference, 6 months difference, month's difference, 6 months difference, month's difference, 6 months difference, maybe even several years difference. But maybe even several years difference. But maybe even several years difference. But ultimately there's a certain point in ultimately there's a certain point in ultimately there's a certain point in the Second World War where the outcome the Second World War where the outcome the Second World War where the outcome is absolutely inevitable is absolutely inevitable is absolutely inevitable because the guys that lose can't compete because the guys that lose can't compete because the guys that lose can't compete with the numbers that the guys are going with the numbers that the guys are going with the numbers that the guys are going to win at. So in that sense, you could to win at. So in that sense, you could to win at. So in that sense, you could think of World War II as uh as a battle think of World War II as uh as a battle think of World War II as uh as a battle of factories. Yes. What does it take to of factories. Yes. What does it take to of factories. Yes. What does it take to win in the battle of factories in out win in the battle of factories in out win in the battle of factories in out manufacturing military manufacturing military manufacturing military equipment against the Allies? It's it's equipment against the Allies? It's it's equipment against the Allies? It's it's efficiency really. So I always kind of efficiency really. So I always kind of efficiency really. So I always kind of you know I I was think let's take the you know I I was think let's take the you know I I was think let's take the example of the Sherman tank for example example of the Sherman tank for example example of the Sherman tank for example the mainstay of the Western Allied the mainstay of the Western Allied the mainstay of the Western Allied forces and a fair number of them sent to forces and a fair number of them sent to forces and a fair number of them sent to the Soviet Union as well for that the Soviet Union as well for that the Soviet Union as well for that matter. Uh I think you've said it matter. Uh I think you've said it matter. Uh I think you've said it doesn't get the respect it deserves.

doesn't get the respect it deserves. doesn't get the respect it deserves. Maybe doesn't get the respect it Maybe doesn't get the respect it Maybe doesn't get the respect it deserves. So, the Sherman tank, the 75 deserves. So, the Sherman tank, the 75 deserves. So, the Sherman tank, the 75 mm main battle gun, which a sort of mm main battle gun, which a sort of mm main battle gun, which a sort of medium velocity, fire a shell around medium velocity, fire a shell around medium velocity, fire a shell around kind of 2,000 ft pers compared to the kind of 2,000 ft pers compared to the kind of 2,000 ft pers compared to the notorious, infamous German 88 mm, which notorious, infamous German 88 mm, which notorious, infamous German 88 mm, which can fire at kind of third fast again, can fire at kind of third fast again, can fire at kind of third fast again, like 3,000 ft pers. But on paper, a like 3,000 ft pers. But on paper, a like 3,000 ft pers. But on paper, a Tiger tank coming around the corner and Tiger tank coming around the corner and Tiger tank coming around the corner and a Sherman tank coming around the corner, a Sherman tank coming around the corner, a Sherman tank coming around the corner, it should be no match at all. Tiger tank it should be no match at all. Tiger tank it should be no match at all. Tiger tank is 58 tons. Looks scary. is scary. It's is 58 tons. Looks scary. is scary. It's is 58 tons. Looks scary. is scary. It's got a massive gun. It's got really thick got a massive gun. It's got really thick got a massive gun. It's got really thick armor. Sherman tank doesn't have as armor. Sherman tank doesn't have as armor. Sherman tank doesn't have as thick armor. It doesn't have a gun thick armor. It doesn't have a gun thick armor. It doesn't have a gun that's as as big. It should it should be that's as as big. It should it should be that's as as big. It should it should be an absolute walkover. And yet, at about an absolute walkover. And yet, at about an absolute walkover. And yet, at about 5:30 p.m. on Monday the 26th of June 5:30 p.m. on Monday the 26th of June 5:30 p.m. on Monday the 26th of June 1944, a Sherman tank came around the 1944, a Sherman tank came around the 1944, a Sherman tank came around the corner of a road called a Rumu, little corner of a road called a Rumu, little corner of a road called a Rumu, little village called Fontine Lanol in village called Fontine Lanol in village called Fontine Lanol in Normandy, came face to face of a Tiger Normandy, came face to face of a Tiger Normandy, came face to face of a Tiger tank and won. How does this happen? tank and won. How does this happen? tank and won. How does this happen? Well, I tell you how it happened. Well, I tell you how it happened. Well, I tell you how it happened. Because the commander of the Sherman Because the commander of the Sherman Because the commander of the Sherman tank was experienced, had one up the tank was experienced, had one up the tank was experienced, had one up the spout. So what I mean by that is he had spout. So what I mean by that is he had spout. So what I mean by that is he had an armorpiercing round already in the an armorpiercing round already in the an armorpiercing round already in the breach. Soon as he saw the the Tiger breach. Soon as he saw the the Tiger breach. Soon as he saw the the Tiger tank, he just said fire. That armor tank, he just said fire. That armor tank, he just said fire. That armor piercing round did not penetrate the piercing round did not penetrate the piercing round did not penetrate the Tiger tank. It was never going to. But Tiger tank. It was never going to. But Tiger tank. It was never going to. But what it did do was it created a it hit what it did do was it created a it hit what it did do was it created a it hit the gun mantlet, which is a bit of the gun mantlet, which is a bit of the gun mantlet, which is a bit of reinforced steel that you have just as reinforced steel that you have just as reinforced steel that you have just as the barrel is entering the turret. And the barrel is entering the turret. And the barrel is entering the turret. And that caused spalling which is a little that caused spalling which is a little that caused spalling which is a little shards of little bits of molten metal shards of little bits of molten metal shards of little bits of molten metal which then hit the driver of the Tiger which then hit the driver of the Tiger which then hit the driver of the Tiger tank in the head. And he was screaming tank in the head. And he was screaming tank in the head. And he was screaming you know gone himl or whatever and and

you know gone himl or whatever and and you know gone himl or whatever and and you know was couldn't really see. The you know was couldn't really see. The you know was couldn't really see. The moment they got hit the commander of the moment they got hit the commander of the moment they got hit the commander of the Tiger tank retreated into the turret of Tiger tank retreated into the turret of Tiger tank retreated into the turret of the Tiger. The moment you retreat into the Tiger. The moment you retreat into the Tiger. The moment you retreat into the tig into a turret you can't see. You the tig into a turret you can't see. You the tig into a turret you can't see. You can see because you've got periscopes can see because you've got periscopes can see because you've got periscopes but your visibility is nothing like as but your visibility is nothing like as but your visibility is nothing like as good as it is when you've got your head good as it is when you've got your head good as it is when you've got your head above the turret. above the turret. above the turret. Immediately after that the armor Immediately after that the armor Immediately after that the armor piercing round from the Sherman tank was piercing round from the Sherman tank was piercing round from the Sherman tank was repeated by by a number of high repeated by by a number of high repeated by by a number of high explosive rounds which are rounds which explosive rounds which are rounds which explosive rounds which are rounds which kind of you know detonate have a little kind of you know detonate have a little kind of you know detonate have a little minor charge. Then there was a second minor charge. Then there was a second minor charge. Then there was a second charge which creates lots of smoke and charge which creates lots of smoke and charge which creates lots of smoke and and and in moments in the first 30 and and in moments in the first 30 and and in moments in the first 30 seconds 10 rounds from that Sherman tank seconds 10 rounds from that Sherman tank seconds 10 rounds from that Sherman tank had hit the Tiger tank before the Tiger had hit the Tiger tank before the Tiger had hit the Tiger tank before the Tiger tank had had unleashed a single round tank had had unleashed a single round tank had had unleashed a single round itself itself itself and the crew then surrendered. So, you and the crew then surrendered. So, you and the crew then surrendered. So, you didn't need to destroy the Tiger tank. didn't need to destroy the Tiger tank. didn't need to destroy the Tiger tank. You just need to stop it operating. If You just need to stop it operating. If You just need to stop it operating. If it hasn't got a crew, it's it's a it's a it hasn't got a crew, it's it's a it's a it hasn't got a crew, it's it's a it's a it's just a chunk of metal that's it's just a chunk of metal that's it's just a chunk of metal that's inoperable. So, that's all you need to inoperable. So, that's all you need to inoperable. So, that's all you need to do. And what that tells you is that do. And what that tells you is that do. And what that tells you is that experience counts, training counts. Um, experience counts, training counts. Um, experience counts, training counts. Um, the agility of the Sherman tank also the agility of the Sherman tank also the agility of the Sherman tank also counts. It's a smaller shelf, therefore counts. It's a smaller shelf, therefore counts. It's a smaller shelf, therefore it's easy to manhandle, which means you it's easy to manhandle, which means you it's easy to manhandle, which means you can put more in a brereech quicker. Um, can put more in a brereech quicker. Um, can put more in a brereech quicker. Um, there's features on a Sherman tank, like there's features on a Sherman tank, like there's features on a Sherman tank, like it's the first tank to have a gun it's the first tank to have a gun it's the first tank to have a gun stabilizing gyro, which means it's more stabilizing gyro, which means it's more stabilizing gyro, which means it's more effective on the move. There's also an effective on the move. There's also an effective on the move. There's also an override switch on the underside of the override switch on the underside of the override switch on the underside of the turret so that the commander, if he just turret so that the commander, if he just turret so that the commander, if he just sees something out of the corner of his sees something out of the corner of his sees something out of the corner of his eye, can immediately start moving the eye, can immediately start moving the eye, can immediately start moving the the turret before the gunner who is down the turret before the gunner who is down the turret before the gunner who is down in the belly of the turret can can in the belly of the turret can can in the belly of the turret can can react. There's many different factors of react. There's many different factors of react. There's many different factors of it, but the main fact of all is there

it, but the main fact of all is there it, but the main fact of all is there 1,347 Tigers built. There were 49,000 1,347 Tigers built. There were 49,000 1,347 Tigers built. There were 49,000 Sherman. So that means there's 36 Sherman. So that means there's 36 Sherman. So that means there's 36 Shermans to every single Tiger. So you Shermans to every single Tiger. So you Shermans to every single Tiger. So you actually have an incredible uh uh video. actually have an incredible uh uh video. actually have an incredible uh uh video. You talk about this a lot from different You talk about this a lot from different You talk about this a lot from different angles about the the top five tanks and angles about the the top five tanks and angles about the the top five tanks and and then the bottom five tanks of World and then the bottom five tanks of World and then the bottom five tanks of World War II. I think was it the Tiger that War II. I think was it the Tiger that War II. I think was it the Tiger that made both the top five and the bottom made both the top five and the bottom made both the top five and the bottom five? The problem with a Tiger tank is five? The problem with a Tiger tank is five? The problem with a Tiger tank is it's really huge. We should say that you it's really huge. We should say that you it's really huge. We should say that you keep saying the problem but the one of keep saying the problem but the one of keep saying the problem but the one of the pros of the Tiger tank it's very the pros of the Tiger tank it's very the pros of the Tiger tank it's very huge. It it's I mean the psychological huge. It it's I mean the psychological huge. It it's I mean the psychological warfare aspect of it is terrifying. Yes. warfare aspect of it is terrifying. Yes. warfare aspect of it is terrifying. Yes. So I I don't know what the other pros I So I I don't know what the other pros I So I I don't know what the other pros I mean I guess yeah the the 88 mm high mean I guess yeah the the 88 mm high mean I guess yeah the the 88 mm high velocity and all the rest of it you know velocity and all the rest of it you know velocity and all the rest of it you know it's pretty fearsome but but there are it's pretty fearsome but but there are it's pretty fearsome but but there are there are pragmatic problems the the big there are pragmatic problems the the big there are pragmatic problems the the big problems is the Germans are are problems is the Germans are are problems is the Germans are are incapable of mass production on a scale incapable of mass production on a scale incapable of mass production on a scale that Americans could do. Frankly even that Americans could do. Frankly even that Americans could do. Frankly even the British can do. I mean they're just the British can do. I mean they're just the British can do. I mean they're just they're just not in that league. The they're just not in that league. The they're just not in that league. The reason they're not in that league is reason they're not in that league is reason they're not in that league is because they're in the middle of Europe. because they're in the middle of Europe. because they're in the middle of Europe. They don't have access to the world's They don't have access to the world's They don't have access to the world's oceans. They don't have a merchant oceans. They don't have a merchant oceans. They don't have a merchant fleet. They can't get this stuff. It fleet. They can't get this stuff. It fleet. They can't get this stuff. It hasn't gone terribly well in the Soviet hasn't gone terribly well in the Soviet hasn't gone terribly well in the Soviet Union. um you know they can't process it Union. um you know they can't process it Union. um you know they can't process it and they're being bombed 24 hours a day and they're being bombed 24 hours a day and they're being bombed 24 hours a day and so all their factories are you know and so all their factories are you know and so all their factories are you know having to split them all up and that is having to split them all up and that is having to split them all up and that is inherently inefficient because you're inherently inefficient because you're inherently inefficient because you're then having to kind of move different then having to kind of move different then having to kind of move different parts around and you know you're then parts around and you know you're then parts around and you know you're then having the whole process of having to having the whole process of having to having the whole process of having to travel from one place to another to get travel from one place to another to get travel from one place to another to get stuff you haven't got much stuff you haven't got much stuff you haven't got much fuel. So the consequence of that is that fuel. So the consequence of that is that fuel. So the consequence of that is that what you do is you think okay we can't what you do is you think okay we can't what you do is you think okay we can't massproduce so let's make really massproduce so let's make really massproduce so let's make really brilliant tanks but they've lost sight brilliant tanks but they've lost sight brilliant tanks but they've lost sight of what a really brilliant is you know

of what a really brilliant is you know of what a really brilliant is you know really brilliant to their eyes is big really brilliant to their eyes is big really brilliant to their eyes is big scary big gun lots of armor but actually scary big gun lots of armor but actually scary big gun lots of armor but actually what conflict in World War II shows you what conflict in World War II shows you what conflict in World War II shows you is is that that you need more than that is is that that you need more than that is is that that you need more than that you need ease of maintenance you need you need ease of maintenance you need you need ease of maintenance you need reliability and the problem with having reliability and the problem with having reliability and the problem with having the bigger the the bigger the the bigger the tank the more complex like the tank the more complex like the tank the more complex like the maintenance equipment is, you know, you maintenance equipment is, you know, you maintenance equipment is, you know, you need a bigger hoist, which then means need a bigger hoist, which then means need a bigger hoist, which then means you need a bigger truck, which then uses you need a bigger truck, which then uses you need a bigger truck, which then uses more fuel. So, for example, the Tiger more fuel. So, for example, the Tiger more fuel. So, for example, the Tiger tank is so big that it doesn't fit on tank is so big that it doesn't fit on tank is so big that it doesn't fit on the loading gauge of the European the loading gauge of the European the loading gauge of the European railway system. So, they have to have railway system. So, they have to have railway system. So, they have to have different tracks to roll onto the wagons different tracks to roll onto the wagons different tracks to roll onto the wagons that will then transport them from A to that will then transport them from A to that will then transport them from A to B, you know, take them from West Germany B, you know, take them from West Germany B, you know, take them from West Germany to Normandy. Then they have to take them to Normandy. Then they have to take them to Normandy. Then they have to take them off, then they have to take off the off, then they have to take off the off, then they have to take off the tracks, put on combat tracks, then move tracks, put on combat tracks, then move tracks, put on combat tracks, then move them into into battle and hope that they them into into battle and hope that they them into into battle and hope that they don't break down. The problem is when don't break down. The problem is when don't break down. The problem is when you have you start the war that's not you have you start the war that's not you have you start the war that's not very automotive and you've only got 47 very automotive and you've only got 47 very automotive and you've only got 47 people for every motorized vehicle in people for every motorized vehicle in people for every motorized vehicle in Germany compared to three in the United Germany compared to three in the United Germany compared to three in the United States or eight in France is that you've States or eight in France is that you've States or eight in France is that you've got lots of people who don't know how to got lots of people who don't know how to got lots of people who don't know how to drive. You've also means you haven't got drive. You've also means you haven't got drive. You've also means you haven't got lots of garages and mechanics and gas lots of garages and mechanics and gas lots of garages and mechanics and gas stations and and and so on. And so stations and and and so on. And so stations and and and so on. And so you're then creating an incredibly you're then creating an incredibly you're then creating an incredibly complex beast, but you want that complex complex beast, but you want that complex complex beast, but you want that complex thing to be as simple as you possibly thing to be as simple as you possibly thing to be as simple as you possibly can be. And that's the beauty of the can be. And that's the beauty of the can be. And that's the beauty of the Sherman tank, you know, all those guys Sherman tank, you know, all those guys Sherman tank, you know, all those guys in America, they're used to driving in America, they're used to driving in America, they're used to driving stick cars, you know, one of there's stick cars, you know, one of there's stick cars, you know, one of there's three people for every automobile, you three people for every automobile, you three people for every automobile, you know, and that includes, you know, the know, and that includes, you know, the know, and that includes, you know, the old and children. So almost, you know, old and children. So almost, you know, old and children. So almost, you know, every young man knows how to drive. And

every young man knows how to drive. And every young man knows how to drive. And when you get into a Sherman tank, it's when you get into a Sherman tank, it's when you get into a Sherman tank, it's got a clutch, it's got a throttle, the got a clutch, it's got a throttle, the got a clutch, it's got a throttle, the brakes are the steering mechanism. Um, brakes are the steering mechanism. Um, brakes are the steering mechanism. Um, the clutch is where you would expect the the clutch is where you would expect the the clutch is where you would expect the clutch to be. It's got a manual shift. clutch to be. It's got a manual shift. clutch to be. It's got a manual shift. You put your foot on the clutch and you You put your foot on the clutch and you You put your foot on the clutch and you shove it into second gear and off you shove it into second gear and off you shove it into second gear and off you go, or reverse or whatever. And it go, or reverse or whatever. And it go, or reverse or whatever. And it literally couldn't be easier. Anyone who literally couldn't be easier. Anyone who literally couldn't be easier. Anyone who can drive a stick car could drive a can drive a stick car could drive a can drive a stick car could drive a Sherman tank. Seriously, not everyone Sherman tank. Seriously, not everyone Sherman tank. Seriously, not everyone can drive a Tiger tank. It's incredibly can drive a Tiger tank. It's incredibly can drive a Tiger tank. It's incredibly complex. Really, really is. And that complex. Really, really is. And that complex. Really, really is. And that comes with a whole host of of problems. comes with a whole host of of problems. comes with a whole host of of problems. And of course, you don't have the And of course, you don't have the And of course, you don't have the numbers. You don't have the numbers. You numbers. You don't have the numbers. You numbers. You don't have the numbers. You know, you've got 1,347 of them. You've know, you've got 1,347 of them. You've know, you've got 1,347 of them. You've got 492 King Tigers, which are even got 492 King Tigers, which are even got 492 King Tigers, which are even bigger. And, you know, at a time where bigger. And, you know, at a time where bigger. And, you know, at a time where you are really short of fuel and you're you are really short of fuel and you're you are really short of fuel and you're really short of absolutely everything. really short of absolutely everything. really short of absolutely everything. And those shells are huge and they're And those shells are huge and they're And those shells are huge and they're harder to manhandle. And weird little harder to manhandle. And weird little harder to manhandle. And weird little things that the Germans do, you know, things that the Germans do, you know, things that the Germans do, you know, for all their design genius, the loader for all their design genius, the loader for all their design genius, the loader is always on the right hand side. Now, is always on the right hand side. Now, is always on the right hand side. Now, in the 1920s and 19s and and 30s, in the 1920s and 19s and and 30s, in the 1920s and 19s and and 30s, children were taught to be right-handed. children were taught to be right-handed. children were taught to be right-handed. You weren't allowed to be left-handed. You weren't allowed to be left-handed. You weren't allowed to be left-handed. So, you were right-handed. So, you want So, you were right-handed. So, you want So, you were right-handed. So, you want to be on the right hand left hand side to be on the right hand left hand side to be on the right hand left hand side of the gun. So, you can take the shell of the gun. So, you can take the shell of the gun. So, you can take the shell from your right and swivel it into the from your right and swivel it into the from your right and swivel it into the brereech with your from your right side.

brereech with your from your right side. brereech with your from your right side. But the loader in a in a Yag Per or But the loader in a in a Yag Per or But the loader in a in a Yag Per or Pamper or a Tiger is always on the on on Pamper or a Tiger is always on the on on Pamper or a Tiger is always on the on on the right hand side of the bridge, which the right hand side of the bridge, which the right hand side of the bridge, which is ergonomically makes no sense is ergonomically makes no sense is ergonomically makes no sense whatsoever. Why do they do this? I've whatsoever. Why do they do this? I've whatsoever. Why do they do this? I've never found an answer to this, but you never found an answer to this, but you never found an answer to this, but you know, so there's all these little things know, so there's all these little things know, so there's all these little things and and as a soldier coming up against, and and as a soldier coming up against, and and as a soldier coming up against, you know, you're an American GI and you know, you're an American GI and you know, you're an American GI and you're coming up against a a Tiger tank, you're coming up against a a Tiger tank, you're coming up against a a Tiger tank, you don't care about the fact that it's you don't care about the fact that it's you don't care about the fact that it's difficult to maintain or the problems difficult to maintain or the problems difficult to maintain or the problems involved of trying to get it to the involved of trying to get it to the involved of trying to get it to the battlefield. All you care about is is battlefield. All you care about is is battlefield. All you care about is is this monster coming in front of you. this monster coming in front of you. this monster coming in front of you. It's squeaking and clanking away and It's squeaking and clanking away and It's squeaking and clanking away and it's incredibly scary and it's about to it's incredibly scary and it's about to it's incredibly scary and it's about to blow you to bits. That's all you care blow you to bits. That's all you care blow you to bits. That's all you care about and quite understandably so. But about and quite understandably so. But about and quite understandably so. But but those who are protracting the war at but those who are protracting the war at but those who are protracting the war at a higher level and historians that come a higher level and historians that come a higher level and historians that come subsequently and and look at all this subsequently and and look at all this subsequently and and look at all this stuff, they do need to worry about all stuff, they do need to worry about all stuff, they do need to worry about all these things. I remember the same Georg these things. I remember the same Georg these things. I remember the same Georg Thomas, the architect of the hunger Thomas, the architect of the hunger Thomas, the architect of the hunger plan. Um, I found this this this minutes plan. Um, I found this this this minutes plan. Um, I found this this this minutes of this meeting which I think was either of this meeting which I think was either of this meeting which I think was either on the 4th of December or the 5th of on the 4th of December or the 5th of on the 4th of December or the 5th of December 1941. So, it's just before the December 1941. So, it's just before the December 1941. So, it's just before the Red Army counterattacks outside Moscow Red Army counterattacks outside Moscow Red Army counterattacks outside Moscow in the winter of 1941. And it's a in the winter of 1941. And it's a in the winter of 1941. And it's a meeting about weaponry. And and I and meeting about weaponry. And and I and meeting about weaponry. And and I and this is a verbatim quote. He says, "We this is a verbatim quote. He says, "We this is a verbatim quote. He says, "We have to stop making such complete and have to stop making such complete and have to stop making such complete and aesthetic weapons."

aesthetic weapons." aesthetic weapons." In other words, we've consciously been In other words, we've consciously been In other words, we've consciously been building overengineered and building overengineered and building overengineered and aesthetically pleasing weapons up until aesthetically pleasing weapons up until aesthetically pleasing weapons up until this point. And they sort of half manage this point. And they sort of half manage this point. And they sort of half manage it, but don't it, but don't it, but don't quite. We could probably talk for many quite. We could probably talk for many quite. We could probably talk for many hours about each of these topics. We hours about each of these topics. We hours about each of these topics. We could we we could talk for 10 hours could we we could talk for 10 hours could we we could talk for 10 hours about tanks. I encourage people to uh to about tanks. I encourage people to uh to about tanks. I encourage people to uh to listen to your listen to your listen to your podcast World War II pod. We have ways podcast World War II pod. We have ways podcast World War II pod. We have ways of making you talk. It's great. Oh, of making you talk. It's great. Oh, of making you talk. It's great. Oh, yeah. But we also do we got um got a new yeah. But we also do we got um got a new yeah. But we also do we got um got a new YouTube channel and um website called YouTube channel and um website called YouTube channel and um website called World War II headquarters. There are World War II headquarters. There are World War II headquarters. There are lots of walking the ground and videos of lots of walking the ground and videos of lots of walking the ground and videos of that and all sorts of stuff and little that and all sorts of stuff and little that and all sorts of stuff and little explainers of going around tanks and explainers of going around tanks and explainers of going around tanks and stuff and the weaponry and documents and stuff and the weaponry and documents and stuff and the weaponry and documents and photographic archives. So the idea is to photographic archives. So the idea is to photographic archives. So the idea is to sort of turn it into a kind of real hub sort of turn it into a kind of real hub sort of turn it into a kind of real hub of anyone who's interested in this of anyone who's interested in this of anyone who's interested in this subject. It's a place where they can go subject. It's a place where they can go subject. It's a place where they can go and find out just a whole load more. I and find out just a whole load more. I and find out just a whole load more. I love it. So, like I said, we could love it. So, like I said, we could love it. So, like I said, we could probably talk for many hours on each of probably talk for many hours on each of probably talk for many hours on each of these topics, but let's look at some of these topics, but let's look at some of these topics, but let's look at some of the battles and maybe you can tell me the battles and maybe you can tell me the battles and maybe you can tell me which jumps out at you. I want to talk which jumps out at you. I want to talk which jumps out at you. I want to talk to you about to you about to you about uh the Western Front and definitely talk uh the Western Front and definitely talk uh the Western Front and definitely talk about Normandy. But so, there was the about Normandy. But so, there was the about Normandy. But so, there was the Battle of Midway. Yep. In uh 1942, which Battle of Midway. Yep. In uh 1942, which Battle of Midway. Yep. In uh 1942, which is a naval battle. There's Eastern Front is a naval battle. There's Eastern Front is a naval battle. There's Eastern Front Stalingrad, probably the the Stalingrad, probably the the Stalingrad, probably the the deadliest battle in human history. Then deadliest battle in human history. Then deadliest battle in human history. Then there's the Battle of Kursk. Yeah. Which there's the Battle of Kursk. Yeah. Which there's the Battle of Kursk. Yeah. Which is a tank battle. The largest tank

is a tank battle. The largest tank is a tank battle. The largest tank battle in history. Probably the largest battle in history. Probably the largest battle in history. Probably the largest battle period in history. 6,000 tanks, 2 battle period in history. 6,000 tanks, 2 battle period in history. 6,000 tanks, 2 million troops, 4,000 aircraft. Mhm. And million troops, 4,000 aircraft. Mhm. And million troops, 4,000 aircraft. Mhm. And then that takes us also to the Battle of then that takes us also to the Battle of then that takes us also to the Battle of the Bulge in Normandy, the Italian the Bulge in Normandy, the Italian the Bulge in Normandy, the Italian campaign that you talk a lot about. So campaign that you talk a lot about. So campaign that you talk a lot about. So what do you think is interesting to uh what do you think is interesting to uh what do you think is interesting to uh try to extract some wisdom try to extract some wisdom try to extract some wisdom from before we get to Normandy? from before we get to Normandy? from before we get to Normandy? Is do you find as a historian the battle Is do you find as a historian the battle Is do you find as a historian the battle of Kursk or battle of Stalingrad more of Kursk or battle of Stalingrad more of Kursk or battle of Stalingrad more interesting? Stalenrad is often seen as interesting? Stalenrad is often seen as interesting? Stalenrad is often seen as the turning point. Well, I I yeah, I the turning point. Well, I I yeah, I the turning point. Well, I I yeah, I think so. Uh I I mean it's really think so. Uh I I mean it's really think so. Uh I I mean it's really interesting. interesting. interesting. Um so they get through they get through Um so they get through they get through Um so they get through they get through 1941. Barb Rosa doesn't happen as as the 1941. Barb Rosa doesn't happen as as the 1941. Barb Rosa doesn't happen as as the Germans hope it will. You know, the Germans hope it will. You know, the Germans hope it will. You know, the whole point is to completely destroy the whole point is to completely destroy the whole point is to completely destroy the Red Army in 3 months and that just Red Army in 3 months and that just Red Army in 3 months and that just doesn't happen. And I think you can doesn't happen. And I think you can doesn't happen. And I think you can argue and argue convincingly that by argue and argue convincingly that by argue and argue convincingly that by let's say the beginning of December let's say the beginning of December let's say the beginning of December 1941, Germany is 1941, Germany is 1941, Germany is just not going to win. It it it just just not going to win. It it it just just not going to win. It it it just can't. And and let me tell you what I can't. And and let me tell you what I can't. And and let me tell you what I mean by that. So if you take an mean by that. So if you take an mean by that. So if you take an arbitrary date, let's say the 15th of arbitrary date, let's say the 15th of arbitrary date, let's say the 15th of June 1941, Germany at that moment has June 1941, Germany at that moment has June 1941, Germany at that moment has one enemy, which is Great Britain, one enemy, which is Great Britain, one enemy, which is Great Britain, albeit Great Britain plus Dominion albeit Great Britain plus Dominion albeit Great Britain plus Dominion Empire. Fast forward 6 months to let's Empire. Fast forward 6 months to let's Empire. Fast forward 6 months to let's say the 16th of say the 16th of say the 16th of December. It's got three enemies. It's December. It's got three enemies. It's December. It's got three enemies. It's got Great Britain Dominion got Great Britain Dominion got Great Britain Dominion Empire, Empire, Empire, USSR and the USA. It is just not going USSR and the USA. It is just not going USSR and the USA. It is just not going to win. You know, for all the talks of to win. You know, for all the talks of to win. You know, for all the talks of wonder weapons and all the rest of it's

wonder weapons and all the rest of it's wonder weapons and all the rest of it's just not going to, you know, it it has just not going to, you know, it it has just not going to, you know, it it has lost that that battle. Having said lost that that battle. Having said lost that that battle. Having said that, Soviet Union is still in a really that, Soviet Union is still in a really that, Soviet Union is still in a really really bad bad situation. it is being really bad bad situation. it is being really bad bad situation. it is being helped out a huge amount by helped out a huge amount by helped out a huge amount by um supplies from the United States and um supplies from the United States and um supplies from the United States and from Britain. You know, just from Britain. You know, just from Britain. You know, just unprecedented amounts of material being unprecedented amounts of material being unprecedented amounts of material being sent through the Arctic or across Alaska sent through the Arctic or across Alaska sent through the Arctic or across Alaska into into the Soviet Union at that time. into into the Soviet Union at that time. into into the Soviet Union at that time. It is absolutely staggering how much is It is absolutely staggering how much is It is absolutely staggering how much is committed by Roosevelt and Churchill to committed by Roosevelt and Churchill to committed by Roosevelt and Churchill to to try and stem the flow in in the to try and stem the flow in in the to try and stem the flow in in the Soviet Union because for all the all the Soviet Union because for all the all the Soviet Union because for all the all the announcements and and pride that the announcements and and pride that the announcements and and pride that the Soviet Union has about moving factories Soviet Union has about moving factories Soviet Union has about moving factories to the other side of the Eurals and to the other side of the Eurals and to the other side of the Eurals and stuff which they do in 1941, huge stuff which they do in 1941, huge stuff which they do in 1941, huge amounts are overrun intact by the amounts are overrun intact by the amounts are overrun intact by the Germans in the opening stages of Germans in the opening stages of Germans in the opening stages of Barbarasa. I mean really, you know, Barbarasa. I mean really, you know, Barbarasa. I mean really, you know, colossal losses, huge amounts. So you colossal losses, huge amounts. So you colossal losses, huge amounts. So you know the grain has gone, coal has gone, know the grain has gone, coal has gone, know the grain has gone, coal has gone, um entire factories have gone, steel um entire factories have gone, steel um entire factories have gone, steel production goes down by kind of you know production goes down by kind of you know production goes down by kind of you know 80% in the Soviet Union in 1941 and into 80% in the Soviet Union in 1941 and into 80% in the Soviet Union in 1941 and into 1942. So in 1942 despite the vast amount 1942. So in 1942 despite the vast amount 1942. So in 1942 despite the vast amount of numbers of men that they have at of numbers of men that they have at of numbers of men that they have at their hands. I mean they they create 80 their hands. I mean they they create 80 their hands. I mean they they create 80 new divisions in the second half of 1941 new divisions in the second half of 1941 new divisions in the second half of 1941 for example. I mean Britain never has 80 for example. I mean Britain never has 80 for example. I mean Britain never has 80 divisions in the entire Second World divisions in the entire Second World divisions in the entire Second World War. Division being about rule of thumb War. Division being about rule of thumb War. Division being about rule of thumb 15,000 men. So, you know, despite that, 15,000 men. So, you know, despite that, 15,000 men. So, you know, despite that, and that is because Stalin's meddling, and that is because Stalin's meddling, and that is because Stalin's meddling, the wful state of the Red Army in 1941,

the wful state of the Red Army in 1941, the wful state of the Red Army in 1941, etc., etc., which we've already sort of etc., etc., which we've already sort of etc., etc., which we've already sort of touched upon. So, 1942, it's is still in touched upon. So, 1942, it's is still in touched upon. So, 1942, it's is still in a really bad way, but Germany's in a a really bad way, but Germany's in a a really bad way, but Germany's in a really bad way, too. It's the the the really bad way, too. It's the the the really bad way, too. It's the the the attrition it's it suffered in 1941, it's attrition it's it suffered in 1941, it's attrition it's it suffered in 1941, it's winning itself to death in 1941. So it's winning itself to death in 1941. So it's winning itself to death in 1941. So it's having these huge great encircumments having these huge great encircumments having these huge great encircumments like the encirclement of KEF in like the encirclement of KEF in like the encirclement of KEF in September 1941 you know capturing a September 1941 you know capturing a September 1941 you know capturing a further kind of best part of 700,000 Red further kind of best part of 700,000 Red further kind of best part of 700,000 Red Army troops etc etc but in the process Army troops etc etc but in the process Army troops etc etc but in the process of doing that it is constantly being of doing that it is constantly being of doing that it is constantly being attitted you know both both in battle attitted you know both both in battle attitted you know both both in battle casualties but in also mechanical casualties but in also mechanical casualties but in also mechanical casualties too just can't cope it's too casualties too just can't cope it's too casualties too just can't cope it's too the scale is just too the scale is just too the scale is just too big and what happens is with every big and what happens is with every big and what happens is with every moment that the German forces that moment that the German forces that moment that the German forces that ultimate victory slips away. So Hitler's ultimate victory slips away. So Hitler's ultimate victory slips away. So Hitler's personal handling of the battle personal handling of the battle personal handling of the battle increases. And you know, you can say increases. And you know, you can say increases. And you know, you can say what you like about him, but he just what you like about him, but he just what you like about him, but he just hasn't had the military training to do hasn't had the military training to do hasn't had the military training to do that. He might have amazing attention to that. He might have amazing attention to that. He might have amazing attention to detail. He might be able to understand, detail. He might be able to understand, detail. He might be able to understand, you know, have an enormous capacity to you know, have an enormous capacity to you know, have an enormous capacity to remember units and where they are on a remember units and where they are on a remember units and where they are on a map. But he was only a half corporal in map. But he was only a half corporal in map. But he was only a half corporal in the First World War. He's never been to the First World War. He's never been to the First World War. He's never been to staff college. You know, he might have staff college. You know, he might have staff college. You know, he might have read lots about Frederick the Great. I read lots about Frederick the Great. I read lots about Frederick the Great. I mean, I've read lots of history, but mean, I've read lots of history, but mean, I've read lots of history, but that doesn't mean to say I'd be a that doesn't mean to say I'd be a that doesn't mean to say I'd be a competent field marshal. Um, so he is competent field marshal. Um, so he is competent field marshal. Um, so he is not the right person for the job at all.

not the right person for the job at all. not the right person for the job at all. And he micromanages and and he looks at And he micromanages and and he looks at And he micromanages and and he looks at and and figures and doesn't understand and and figures and doesn't understand and and figures and doesn't understand what it's like at the actual front, the what it's like at the actual front, the what it's like at the actual front, the coldface. So he's he's stifling the very coldface. So he's he's stifling the very coldface. So he's he's stifling the very thing that made the German army thing that made the German army thing that made the German army effective, which is the ability to give effective, which is the ability to give effective, which is the ability to give commanders at the front the freedom on commanders at the front the freedom on commanders at the front the freedom on their leash to be able to make decisions their leash to be able to make decisions their leash to be able to make decisions and battle command decisions. And he's and battle command decisions. And he's and battle command decisions. And he's taken that away from them. So he's taken that away from them. So he's taken that away from them. So he's basically making them go into battle basically making them go into battle basically making them go into battle with decreasing amounts of supplies and with decreasing amounts of supplies and with decreasing amounts of supplies and and and and firepower and with one hand behind their firepower and with one hand behind their firepower and with one hand behind their back in terms of decision-m process and back in terms of decision-m process and back in terms of decision-m process and that is not a good combination. The that is not a good combination. The that is not a good combination. The other problem is that he decides rather other problem is that he decides rather other problem is that he decides rather than going for Moscow in 1942 because than going for Moscow in 1942 because than going for Moscow in 1942 because basically there's a kind of cooling off basically there's a kind of cooling off basically there's a kind of cooling off period in the in the winter because of period in the in the winter because of period in the in the winter because of the conditions. But everyone know the the conditions. But everyone know the the conditions. But everyone know the Soviet Union know the Red Army knows Soviet Union know the Red Army knows Soviet Union know the Red Army knows that the moment spring's come there's that the moment spring's come there's that the moment spring's come there's going to be another offensive be another going to be another offensive be another going to be another offensive be another major offensive in the summer. That is major offensive in the summer. That is major offensive in the summer. That is absolutely as certain as you know day absolutely as certain as you know day absolutely as certain as you know day following night following night following night etc. The problem that the Germans have etc. The problem that the Germans have etc. The problem that the Germans have is they just don't have enough. They is they just don't have enough. They is they just don't have enough. They have less than they had when they have less than they had when they have less than they had when they launched Barbarasa the previous year. launched Barbarasa the previous year. launched Barbarasa the previous year. The Soviet Union has more. It is better The Soviet Union has more. It is better The Soviet Union has more. It is better prepared. It knows what's coming now.

prepared. It knows what's coming now. prepared. It knows what's coming now. It's kind of learning some of the It's kind of learning some of the It's kind of learning some of the lessons, starting to absorb the lessons. lessons, starting to absorb the lessons. lessons, starting to absorb the lessons. Stalin, coincidentally, is pulling back Stalin, coincidentally, is pulling back Stalin, coincidentally, is pulling back from his very tight leash. And the way from his very tight leash. And the way from his very tight leash. And the way that Hitler is doing the opposite and that Hitler is doing the opposite and that Hitler is doing the opposite and increasing his micromanagement and increasing his micromanagement and increasing his micromanagement and control control control freaky. And what Hitler decides is freaky. And what Hitler decides is freaky. And what Hitler decides is rather than going for Moscow, he's going rather than going for Moscow, he's going rather than going for Moscow, he's going to go for the oil fields. And this is to go for the oil fields. And this is to go for the oil fields. And this is absolutely insane because what's going absolutely insane because what's going absolutely insane because what's going to happen when they get to the oil to happen when they get to the oil to happen when they get to the oil fields? I mean, does he think really fields? I mean, does he think really fields? I mean, does he think really that the Soviet Union are going to let that the Soviet Union are going to let that the Soviet Union are going to let those oil fields come into German hands those oil fields come into German hands those oil fields come into German hands intact? Even if he does let them get in intact? Even if he does let them get in intact? Even if he does let them get in intact, what are they going to do with intact, what are they going to do with intact, what are they going to do with that oil? I that oil? I that oil? I mean, oil needs to be refined. Where are mean, oil needs to be refined. Where are mean, oil needs to be refined. Where are you going to refine it? You know, they you going to refine it? You know, they you going to refine it? You know, they don't have any or they don't have many don't have any or they don't have many don't have any or they don't have many oil refineries. How are you going to oil refineries. How are you going to oil refineries. How are you going to ship that oil to where you need it to be ship that oil to where you need it to be ship that oil to where you need it to be in the factories in the Third Reich and in the factories in the Third Reich and in the factories in the Third Reich and into your, you know, process into into into your, you know, process into into into your, you know, process into into gasoline and then get it and diesel and gasoline and then get it and diesel and gasoline and then get it and diesel and get it to your Yubos, get it to your get it to your Yubos, get it to your get it to your Yubos, get it to your tanks, get it to your armored units. How tanks, get it to your armored units. How tanks, get it to your armored units. How are you going to do that? How do you are you going to do that? How do you are you going to do that? How do you transport it from from the uh from the transport it from from the uh from the transport it from from the uh from the Caucuses, which is a long long way away Caucuses, which is a long long way away Caucuses, which is a long long way away from from Berlin? How you going to do from from Berlin? How you going to do from from Berlin? How you going to do that? There's no pipelines. There's only that? There's no pipelines. There's only that? There's no pipelines. There's only some pipelines. They've been built by some pipelines. They've been built by some pipelines. They've been built by American money and American engineering American money and American engineering American money and American engineering and they're going backwards towards the and they're going backwards towards the and they're going backwards towards the eurals, not forwards. They have no more eurals, not forwards. They have no more eurals, not forwards. They have no more rail capacity whatsoever. They just rail capacity whatsoever. They just rail capacity whatsoever. They just don't have the oil tankers. So, it's don't have the oil tankers. So, it's don't have the oil tankers. So, it's just it's it is absolute la la land. It just it's it is absolute la la land. It just it's it is absolute la la land. It is incredible that when you look at the is incredible that when you look at the is incredible that when you look at the detailed literature that the Germans detailed literature that the Germans detailed literature that the Germans have. No one is asking this question in have. No one is asking this question in have. No one is asking this question in the in the spring and summer early

the in the spring and summer early the in the spring and summer early summer of 1942. the logistics question summer of 1942. the logistics question summer of 1942. the logistics question in part. No one is saying, "Okay, it's in part. No one is saying, "Okay, it's in part. No one is saying, "Okay, it's great that we're going to go to the great that we're going to go to the great that we're going to go to the caucuses and get all this oil, but then caucuses and get all this oil, but then caucuses and get all this oil, but then what?" No one is asking that question, what?" No one is asking that question, what?" No one is asking that question, nor how do you provide resources and nor how do you provide resources and nor how do you provide resources and feed and the soldiers and all that kind feed and the soldiers and all that kind feed and the soldiers and all that kind of stuff. I mean, it's so so the case of stuff. I mean, it's so so the case of stuff. I mean, it's so so the case prove first of all, they get distracted prove first of all, they get distracted prove first of all, they get distracted by going into the Crimea and they go, by going into the Crimea and they go, by going into the Crimea and they go, "Well, we got to do that first." So, "Well, we got to do that first." So, "Well, we got to do that first." So, they have to get Sevastapole and the they have to get Sevastapole and the they have to get Sevastapole and the Crimea, which they do. And then they Crimea, which they do. And then they Crimea, which they do. And then they have to push on and and and at this have to push on and and and at this have to push on and and and at this point suddenly looming in front of them point suddenly looming in front of them point suddenly looming in front of them is Stalingrad on the banks of the Vular. is Stalingrad on the banks of the Vular. is Stalingrad on the banks of the Vular. This this city this industrial city This this city this industrial city This this city this industrial city which has Stalin's name and Hitler goes which has Stalin's name and Hitler goes which has Stalin's name and Hitler goes okay what I'm going to do now is I'm okay what I'm going to do now is I'm okay what I'm going to do now is I'm going to split my forces so half of you going to split my forces so half of you going to split my forces so half of you can go south towards the Caucuses and can go south towards the Caucuses and can go south towards the Caucuses and the rest of you can confront the rest of you can confront the rest of you can confront Stalenrad. And on Boach just who's the Stalenrad. And on Boach just who's the Stalenrad. And on Boach just who's the commander just goes that's nuts. That commander just goes that's nuts. That commander just goes that's nuts. That makes no sense whatsoever. you know, makes no sense whatsoever. you know, makes no sense whatsoever. you know, you're you're you're you're splitting you're you're you're you're splitting you're you're you're you're splitting the mission. So, he fires him. So, the mission. So, he fires him. So, the mission. So, he fires him. So, suddenly they get get into this assault suddenly they get get into this assault suddenly they get get into this assault for for for Stalinrad and it becomes this sort of Stalinrad and it becomes this sort of Stalinrad and it becomes this sort of street fight. Street fighting is the street fight. Street fighting is the street fight. Street fighting is the worst kind of fighting. I mean, the worst kind of fighting. I mean, the worst kind of fighting. I mean, the reason why the Israelis have just blown reason why the Israelis have just blown reason why the Israelis have just blown everything up in in Gaza is because everything up in in Gaza is because everything up in in Gaza is because otherwise you can't see. You know, you otherwise you can't see. You know, you otherwise you can't see. You know, you need a field of fire. This is fighting need a field of fire. This is fighting need a field of fire. This is fighting up in a fighting in a buildup area is is up in a fighting in a buildup area is is up in a fighting in a buildup area is is horrendous. Yeah. To clarify, we're horrendous. Yeah. To clarify, we're horrendous. Yeah. To clarify, we're talking about urban warfare, doortodoor, talking about urban warfare, doortodoor, talking about urban warfare, doortodoor, building to building. It's incredibly building to building. It's incredibly building to building. It's incredibly difficult and home advantage is colossal difficult and home advantage is colossal difficult and home advantage is colossal in this this instance and of course it's in this this instance and of course it's in this this instance and of course it's piping hot when they attack in kind of piping hot when they attack in kind of piping hot when they attack in kind of August into early September and then it August into early September and then it August into early September and then it suddenly gets very very cold and at the

suddenly gets very very cold and at the suddenly gets very very cold and at the same time American mechanization and same time American mechanization and same time American mechanization and slightly a British mechanization but slightly a British mechanization but slightly a British mechanization but primarily American trucks are enabling primarily American trucks are enabling primarily American trucks are enabling Zukov to plan this great Pinser Zukov to plan this great Pinser Zukov to plan this great Pinser movement. So it is, you know, and and movement. So it is, you know, and and movement. So it is, you know, and and Russians will hate me for saying this. Russians will hate me for saying this. Russians will hate me for saying this. Um, and I probably will get a whole load Um, and I probably will get a whole load Um, and I probably will get a whole load of bots on the back of it, but but but of bots on the back of it, but but but of bots on the back of it, but but but the truth is is it is not the street the truth is is it is not the street the truth is is it is not the street fighting that destroys sick army. It is fighting that destroys sick army. It is fighting that destroys sick army. It is the encirclement, the subsequent the encirclement, the subsequent the encirclement, the subsequent encirclement. So they the Germans have encirclement. So they the Germans have encirclement. So they the Germans have been sucked into this street battle in been sucked into this street battle in been sucked into this street battle in in Stalingrad. Cannot give up. We cannot in Stalingrad. Cannot give up. We cannot in Stalingrad. Cannot give up. We cannot give up. We cannot back down. We cannot give up. We cannot back down. We cannot give up. We cannot back down. We cannot pull out. We've got to we've got to pull out. We've got to we've got to pull out. We've got to we've got to destroy this city. Meanwhile, while destroy this city. Meanwhile, while destroy this city. Meanwhile, while their backs are turned and while most of their backs are turned and while most of their backs are turned and while most of their forces are going off to the their forces are going off to the their forces are going off to the caucuses on a wild goose chase for caucuses on a wild goose chase for caucuses on a wild goose chase for absolutely zero oil incidentally um and absolutely zero oil incidentally um and absolutely zero oil incidentally um and they never get remotely close to Baku, they never get remotely close to Baku, they never get remotely close to Baku, this huge great penser movement is is is this huge great penser movement is is is this huge great penser movement is is is being planned and it is only possible being planned and it is only possible being planned and it is only possible through mechanization from the United through mechanization from the United through mechanization from the United States. And that is the big turning States. And that is the big turning States. And that is the big turning point because from that moment onwards point because from that moment onwards point because from that moment onwards the Germans are on the back foot.

the Germans are on the back foot. the Germans are on the back foot. They're basically going backwards. There They're basically going backwards. There They're basically going backwards. There are little small character attacks. are little small character attacks. are little small character attacks. There is obviously the cursed salient There is obviously the cursed salient There is obviously the cursed salient for example. Um but it it it's game for example. Um but it it it's game for example. Um but it it it's game over. you know, the the catastrophe of over. you know, the the catastrophe of over. you know, the the catastrophe of the surrender of the final. I mean, the the surrender of the final. I mean, the the surrender of the final. I mean, the writing's on the wall at the end of 1942 writing's on the wall at the end of 1942 writing's on the wall at the end of 1942 by by November 1942 when when the when by by November 1942 when when the when by by November 1942 when when the when the uh the two um Soviet fronts meet up the uh the two um Soviet fronts meet up the uh the two um Soviet fronts meet up then then you know there is no possible then then you know there is no possible then then you know there is no possible chance of escape for Sig Farmy. They are chance of escape for Sig Farmy. They are chance of escape for Sig Farmy. They are consigned. They are toast. And their consigned. They are toast. And their consigned. They are toast. And their final strand obviously happens at the final strand obviously happens at the final strand obviously happens at the very beginning of February 1943. But very beginning of February 1943. But very beginning of February 1943. But that's all over. Then at the same time that's all over. Then at the same time that's all over. Then at the same time that that is happening, disaster is that that is happening, disaster is that that is happening, disaster is unfolding in North Africa because Hitler unfolding in North Africa because Hitler unfolding in North Africa because Hitler has insisted on massively resupplying has insisted on massively resupplying has insisted on massively resupplying the Mediterranean theater. And the the Mediterranean theater. And the the Mediterranean theater. And the problem there is the amount of equipment problem there is the amount of equipment problem there is the amount of equipment that is lost in North Africa is greater that is lost in North Africa is greater that is lost in North Africa is greater than it is at Stalingrad. I don't think than it is at Stalingrad. I don't think than it is at Stalingrad. I don't think you could argue that you could argue that you could argue that psychologically Tunis is a greater loss psychologically Tunis is a greater loss psychologically Tunis is a greater loss than Stalingrad. It absolutely isn't. than Stalingrad. It absolutely isn't. than Stalingrad. It absolutely isn't. But you have to see them in tandem as But you have to see them in tandem as But you have to see them in tandem as this is two fronts. This is eastern this is two fronts. This is eastern this is two fronts. This is eastern front, southern western front and this front, southern western front and this front, southern western front and this is the first time that the Americans is the first time that the Americans is the first time that the Americans have been on the ground against access have been on the ground against access have been on the ground against access forces and they lose big time. The forces and they lose big time. The forces and they lose big time. The allies become masters of the North allies become masters of the North allies become masters of the North African shores on the 13th of May 1943 African shores on the 13th of May 1943 African shores on the 13th of May 1943 and it is a catastrophe and in that time and it is a catastrophe and in that time and it is a catastrophe and in that time 2,700 aircraft have been Luftwaffer 2,700 aircraft have been Luftwaffer 2,700 aircraft have been Luftwaffer aircraft have been destroyed over North aircraft have been destroyed over North aircraft have been destroyed over North Africa between November 1942 and May Africa between November 1942 and May Africa between November 1942 and May 1943 and overall the subsequent that 1943 and overall the subsequent that 1943 and overall the subsequent that summer as well. Um it's really

summer as well. Um it's really summer as well. Um it's really interesting the Luftwaffer loses between interesting the Luftwaffer loses between interesting the Luftwaffer loses between June and October June and October June and October 1943. So this is including the Kursk 1943. So this is including the Kursk 1943. So this is including the Kursk battle which that takes place in July battle which that takes place in July battle which that takes place in July 1943. In that period the Luftwaffer 1943. In that period the Luftwaffer 1943. In that period the Luftwaffer loses 702 aircraft over the Eastern loses 702 aircraft over the Eastern loses 702 aircraft over the Eastern Front but Front but Front but 3,74 aircraft over the 3,74 aircraft over the 3,74 aircraft over the Mediterranean. So I think one has to Mediterranean. So I think one has to Mediterranean. So I think one has to also one of the lessons about studying also one of the lessons about studying also one of the lessons about studying the Second World War is one has to be the Second World War is one has to be the Second World War is one has to be careful not to assign strategic careful not to assign strategic careful not to assign strategic importance to to boots on the ground. It importance to to boots on the ground. It importance to to boots on the ground. It can be of great strategic importance, can be of great strategic importance, can be of great strategic importance, but not necessarily. You know, no one but not necessarily. You know, no one but not necessarily. You know, no one would argue, for example, that the would argue, for example, that the would argue, for example, that the Guadal Canal is not an absolutely Guadal Canal is not an absolutely Guadal Canal is not an absolutely game-changing battle in the in the game-changing battle in the in the game-changing battle in the in the Pacific War, and yet the number of Pacific War, and yet the number of Pacific War, and yet the number of troops compared to, you know, what's troops compared to, you know, what's troops compared to, you know, what's going on in the Eastern Front or even, going on in the Eastern Front or even, going on in the Eastern Front or even, you know, the Western Front is is is you know, the Western Front is is is you know, the Western Front is is is tiny in comparison. tiny in comparison. tiny in comparison. So, it is absolutely true that the most So, it is absolutely true that the most So, it is absolutely true that the most German blood is lost on the Eastern German blood is lost on the Eastern German blood is lost on the Eastern Front, but that doesn't mean to say that Front, but that doesn't mean to say that Front, but that doesn't mean to say that it's more strategically important than it's more strategically important than it's more strategically important than the Western Front. It's a it's it's and the Western Front. It's a it's it's and the Western Front. It's a it's it's and it's not saying that the western front it's not saying that the western front it's not saying that the western front is more strategic either. It's just you is more strategic either. It's just you is more strategic either. It's just you have to kind of be balanced about this.

have to kind of be balanced about this. have to kind of be balanced about this. The psychological blow of Stalingrad is The psychological blow of Stalingrad is The psychological blow of Stalingrad is immense and you you cannot belittle immense and you you cannot belittle immense and you you cannot belittle that. I mean there's the we went over it that. I mean there's the we went over it that. I mean there's the we went over it really fast but there is a human drama really fast but there is a human drama really fast but there is a human drama element. Yes. But yes, when we're element. Yes. But yes, when we're element. Yes. But yes, when we're talking about the operational side, the talking about the operational side, the talking about the operational side, the material loss of a battle is also material loss of a battle is also material loss of a battle is also extremely important to the big picture extremely important to the big picture extremely important to the big picture of the war. And we often don't talk of the war. And we often don't talk of the war. And we often don't talk about that because of course with war about that because of course with war about that because of course with war the thing to focus on is the human drama the thing to focus on is the human drama the thing to focus on is the human drama of it. Yes. Because we're humans. And I of it. Yes. Because we're humans. And I of it. Yes. Because we're humans. And I also think that what's interesting is also think that what's interesting is also think that what's interesting is that is the Nazi high command's response that is the Nazi high command's response that is the Nazi high command's response to Stalinrad which is not to go we're to Stalinrad which is not to go we're to Stalinrad which is not to go we're screwed. It's to double down. It's you screwed. It's to double down. It's you screwed. It's to double down. It's you know then so so Gerbles for example know then so so Gerbles for example know then so so Gerbles for example gives his infamous speech in the sports gives his infamous speech in the sports gives his infamous speech in the sports palace in third week of February 1943 palace in third week of February 1943 palace in third week of February 1943 where he goes are you ready for this? where he goes are you ready for this? where he goes are you ready for this? You know, this is now total war. The war You know, this is now total war. The war You know, this is now total war. The war is coming. This is a fight for survival. is coming. This is a fight for survival. is coming. This is a fight for survival. We're all in it together. You are in We're all in it together. You are in We're all in it together. You are in this as well. You know, every single this as well. You know, every single this as well. You know, every single one, every single German is now this is one, every single German is now this is one, every single German is now this is a fight for survival and we are now in a fight for survival and we are now in a fight for survival and we are now in total war. And total war. And total war. And and everyone is just so depressed by and everyone is just so depressed by and everyone is just so depressed by this. I mean, yeah, they realize that this. I mean, yeah, they realize that this. I mean, yeah, they realize that there is that they have they they will there is that they have they they will there is that they have they they will are going to reap what they have sown, are going to reap what they have sown, are going to reap what they have sown, you know, because everyone knows what's you know, because everyone knows what's you know, because everyone knows what's been going on in the Eastern Front been going on in the Eastern Front been going on in the Eastern Front because first part of the war, Germans because first part of the war, Germans because first part of the war, Germans have loads and loads of cameras. They're have loads and loads of cameras. They're have loads and loads of cameras. They're really into photographing everything, really into photographing everything, really into photographing everything, taking cine footage of everything. It's taking cine footage of everything. It's taking cine footage of everything. It's all part of recording the greatness of all part of recording the greatness of all part of recording the greatness of the Reich and the triumphs of the Reich.

the Reich and the triumphs of the Reich. the Reich and the triumphs of the Reich. They want it recorded. So, all this They want it recorded. So, all this They want it recorded. So, all this stuff is bit like the radios is made stuff is bit like the radios is made stuff is bit like the radios is made very very cheap. So, lots of havoc and very very cheap. So, lots of havoc and very very cheap. So, lots of havoc and people are sending it all back and you people are sending it all back and you people are sending it all back and you know the people that are developing the know the people that are developing the know the people that are developing the stuff are all seeing it and people are stuff are all seeing it and people are stuff are all seeing it and people are talking about it and then it's being talking about it and then it's being talking about it and then it's being sent to families and they're all seeing sent to families and they're all seeing sent to families and they're all seeing it and they're seeing pictures of Jews it and they're seeing pictures of Jews it and they're seeing pictures of Jews being rounded up and beaten and they're being rounded up and beaten and they're being rounded up and beaten and they're seeing um Ukrainian partisans being seeing um Ukrainian partisans being seeing um Ukrainian partisans being executed and they're seeing villages executed and they're seeing villages executed and they're seeing villages being torched and everyone being torched and everyone being torched and everyone knows. They all know. Yeah. This whole knows. They all know. Yeah. This whole knows. They all know. Yeah. This whole idea is, you know, did they really know idea is, you know, did they really know idea is, you know, did they really know what was going on? Yeah, they do. They what was going on? Yeah, they do. They what was going on? Yeah, they do. They do know what's going on, you know, to do know what's going on, you know, to do know what's going on, you know, to lesser or greater detail. Of course, you lesser or greater detail. Of course, you lesser or greater detail. Of course, you know, there's some people who don't. know, there's some people who don't. know, there's some people who don't. And, you know, a bit like people know And, you know, a bit like people know And, you know, a bit like people know about the news today. Some people do, about the news today. Some people do, about the news today. Some people do, some people don't. I never read a some people don't. I never read a some people don't. I never read a newspaper. I never listen to the news, newspaper. I never listen to the news, newspaper. I never listen to the news, you know. So you you have that of course you know. So you you have that of course you know. So you you have that of course but but but it is widely understood and but but but it is widely understood and but but but it is widely understood and widely known widely known widely known that really brutal things have been that really brutal things have been that really brutal things have been going on in the east and and and troops going on in the east and and and troops going on in the east and and and troops are coming back utterly traumatized by are coming back utterly traumatized by are coming back utterly traumatized by what they have taken part in what they what they have taken part in what they what they have taken part in what they have witnessed the kind of unspeakable have witnessed the kind of unspeakable have witnessed the kind of unspeakable brutality. This is war on a completely brutality. This is war on a completely brutality. This is war on a completely different level to anything that's been different level to anything that's been different level to anything that's been kind of seen in recent years. Yeah. We kind of seen in recent years. Yeah. We kind of seen in recent years. Yeah. We should we should mention that you know should we should mention that you know should we should mention that you know the western front and the eastern front the western front and the eastern front the western front and the eastern front are very different in this regard. Yes.

are very different in this regard. Yes. are very different in this regard. Yes. So a lot of the Holocaust by bullets. So a lot of the Holocaust by bullets. So a lot of the Holocaust by bullets. The Holocaust with the concentration The Holocaust with the concentration The Holocaust with the concentration camps and the extermination camps is not camps and the extermination camps is not camps and the extermination camps is not in Germany is not in the Western Front in Germany is not in the Western Front in Germany is not in the Western Front is in Poland is it's in the Soviet is in Poland is it's in the Soviet is in Poland is it's in the Soviet Union. Yeah. But don't forget that even Union. Yeah. But don't forget that even Union. Yeah. But don't forget that even Achvitz for example is part of the new Achvitz for example is part of the new Achvitz for example is part of the new Reich. It is part of you know it is part Reich. It is part of you know it is part Reich. It is part of you know it is part of an area which has been absorbed into of an area which has been absorbed into of an area which has been absorbed into Germany. So as far as they're concerned Germany. So as far as they're concerned Germany. So as far as they're concerned this has now got you know it's now no this has now got you know it's now no this has now got you know it's now no longer got the Polish name. It's now longer got the Polish name. It's now longer got the Polish name. It's now called Ashvitz which is a German name. called Ashvitz which is a German name. called Ashvitz which is a German name. It is part of Germany and there are It is part of Germany and there are It is part of Germany and there are German people moving there into this, German people moving there into this, German people moving there into this, you know, aircom model town and they all you know, aircom model town and they all you know, aircom model town and they all know exactly what's going on. Yeah. You, know exactly what's going on. Yeah. You, know exactly what's going on. Yeah. You, by the way, have a nice podcast uh by the way, have a nice podcast uh by the way, have a nice podcast uh series of four episodes on Ashwitz. series of four episodes on Ashwitz. series of four episodes on Ashwitz. um the evolution of the dream world um the evolution of the dream world um the evolution of the dream world town that becomes a a camp, a work camp, town that becomes a a camp, a work camp, town that becomes a a camp, a work camp, then becomes an extermination camp and a then becomes an extermination camp and a then becomes an extermination camp and a big boona factory for IG Farbin, which big boona factory for IG Farbin, which big boona factory for IG Farbin, which never produces a single bit of rubber.

never produces a single bit of rubber. never produces a single bit of rubber. So th this for sure is uh something I So th this for sure is uh something I So th this for sure is uh something I would have to dive deep in. There's a would have to dive deep in. There's a would have to dive deep in. There's a book you've recommended, KL. book you've recommended, KL. book you've recommended, KL. Yes, it's just called KL. It's about the Yes, it's just called KL. It's about the Yes, it's just called KL. It's about the the whole concentration camp system. Um the whole concentration camp system. Um the whole concentration camp system. Um cuz K is concentration cuz K is concentration cuz K is concentration um in German. Laga is a is a camp. Um um in German. Laga is a is a camp. Um um in German. Laga is a is a camp. Um it's a it's an exhaustive book and I'm it's a it's an exhaustive book and I'm it's a it's an exhaustive book and I'm I'm full of admiration for him for for I'm full of admiration for him for for I'm full of admiration for him for for writing it just writing it just writing it just because cheap as it must have been. So I because cheap as it must have been. So I because cheap as it must have been. So I mean I I was very depressed doing that mean I I was very depressed doing that mean I I was very depressed doing that work on Ashvitz that deep dive. I just work on Ashvitz that deep dive. I just work on Ashvitz that deep dive. I just found the whole thing utterly found the whole thing utterly found the whole thing utterly dispiriting. Um and I've been there a dispiriting. Um and I've been there a dispiriting. Um and I've been there a few times and it's ghastly. Um so how he few times and it's ghastly. Um so how he few times and it's ghastly. Um so how he wrote a whole book on it I don't know. I wrote a whole book on it I don't know. I wrote a whole book on it I don't know. I think in the think in the think in the details there's a there's two ways I details there's a there's two ways I details there's a there's two ways I think to look at the holocaust. One is think to look at the holocaust. One is think to look at the holocaust. One is uh man's search for meaning about Victor uh man's search for meaning about Victor uh man's search for meaning about Victor Franco sort of this philosophical thing Franco sort of this philosophical thing Franco sort of this philosophical thing about how a human being can confront about how a human being can confront about how a human being can confront that and find meaning and what it mean that and find meaning and what it mean that and find meaning and what it mean what what does the human condition look what what does the human condition look what what does the human condition look like in the context of such uh evil. And like in the context of such uh evil. And like in the context of such uh evil. And then there is the more sort of detailed then there is the more sort of detailed then there is the more sort of detailed okay well how how do you actually okay well how how do you actually okay well how how do you actually implement something like the final implement something like the final implement something like the final solution? So you have this ideology of solution? So you have this ideology of solution? So you have this ideology of evil implemented. Yes. And at the fine evil implemented. Yes. And at the fine evil implemented. Yes. And at the fine detail of what what are the different detail of what what are the different detail of what what are the different technologies used? What are the technologies used? What are the technologies used? What are the different humans in the hierarchy of different humans in the hierarchy of different humans in the hierarchy of humans in a camp? How do they what's the

humans in a camp? How do they what's the humans in a camp? How do they what's the actual experience of the individual actual experience of the individual actual experience of the individual person who shows up at a camp? Just get person who shows up at a camp? Just get person who shows up at a camp? Just get in the details and in those details I in the details and in those details I in the details and in those details I think there's some deep profound human think there's some deep profound human think there's some deep profound human truth that can emerge that the the the truth that can emerge that the the the truth that can emerge that the the the mundane mundane mundane um one step at a time is how you can um one step at a time is how you can um one step at a time is how you can achieve evil. Yeah. So you can get lost achieve evil. Yeah. So you can get lost achieve evil. Yeah. So you can get lost in the mundane. It's Yes. The benality in the mundane. It's Yes. The benality in the mundane. It's Yes. The benality of evil. It's of evil. It's of evil. It's um it's incredible. I I I think I think um it's incredible. I I I think I think um it's incredible. I I I think I think what what is so so completely horrific what what is so so completely horrific what what is so so completely horrific is is that you know, you know, half the is is that you know, you know, half the is is that you know, you know, half the six million were killed by kind of six million were killed by kind of six million were killed by kind of bullets at the back of the bullets at the back of the bullets at the back of the head. And the reason they stopped doing head. And the reason they stopped doing head. And the reason they stopped doing that and they wanted to stop doing that that and they wanted to stop doing that that and they wanted to stop doing that was because the guys said, the was because the guys said, the was because the guys said, the perpetrators were finding it so perpetrators were finding it so perpetrators were finding it so traumatic. You know, him goes and visits traumatic. You know, him goes and visits traumatic. You know, him goes and visits um an execution in Ukraine and or maybe um an execution in Ukraine and or maybe um an execution in Ukraine and or maybe he's in the Baltic States. I can't he's in the Baltic States. I can't he's in the Baltic States. I can't remember where he goes, but he but he remember where he goes, but he but he remember where he goes, but he but he witnessed some in, you know, in the witnessed some in, you know, in the witnessed some in, you know, in the summer of 1941. He thinks, "Oh, that's summer of 1941. He thinks, "Oh, that's summer of 1941. He thinks, "Oh, that's horrible." You know, they don't have to horrible." You know, they don't have to horrible." You know, they don't have to do that. I don't want my men having to do that. I don't want my men having to do that. I don't want my men having to do that. Got to find a more humane way do that. Got to find a more humane way do that. Got to find a more humane way of doing it. When you talk about more of doing it. When you talk about more of doing it. When you talk about more humane way of doing it, humane for the humane way of doing it, humane for the humane way of doing it, humane for the for the executors, executioners, not not for the executors, executioners, not not for the executors, executioners, not not for the victims because trust me, for the victims because trust me, for the victims because trust me, cyclone B is not a nice way to go. You cyclone B is not a nice way to go. You cyclone B is not a nice way to go. You know, it basic basically it's bursting know, it basic basically it's bursting know, it basic basically it's bursting all the capillaries in your lungs. It's all the capillaries in your lungs. It's all the capillaries in your lungs. It's extremely painful and and you you can no extremely painful and and you you can no extremely painful and and you you can no longer breathe and it can take up to 20 longer breathe and it can take up to 20 longer breathe and it can take up to 20 25 minutes. You know, some people it can 25 minutes. You know, some people it can 25 minutes. You know, some people it can take a couple of minutes. But all of take a couple of minutes. But all of take a couple of minutes. But all of those who are standing naked in that gas those who are standing naked in that gas those who are standing naked in that gas chamber, first of all, extremely chamber, first of all, extremely chamber, first of all, extremely humiliated by this process in the first humiliated by this process in the first humiliated by this process in the first place, then there's a sudden realization place, then there's a sudden realization place, then there's a sudden realization of that that they're not having a

of that that they're not having a of that that they're not having a shower. They're actually being gassed shower. They're actually being gassed shower. They're actually being gassed and they're all going to die. Imagine and they're all going to die. Imagine and they're all going to die. Imagine what you're thinking as that process is what you're thinking as that process is what you're thinking as that process is you because you might be the first, but you because you might be the first, but you because you might be the first, but you're still going to even the first you're still going to even the first you're still going to even the first person is going to know that I can't person is going to know that I can't person is going to know that I can't breathe and I'm I'm dying. Everyone else breathe and I'm I'm dying. Everyone else breathe and I'm I'm dying. Everyone else is going to see the first few dying and is going to see the first few dying and is going to see the first few dying and then going to realize that is what's then going to realize that is what's then going to realize that is what's going to happen to them. And you've got going to happen to them. And you've got going to happen to them. And you've got those those those minutes, sometimes many minutes where minutes, sometimes many minutes where minutes, sometimes many minutes where you've got to contemplate that that and you've got to contemplate that that and you've got to contemplate that that and and that's that's in extreme pain and and that's that's in extreme pain and and that's that's in extreme pain and panic. And just think about how cruel panic. And just think about how cruel panic. And just think about how cruel that is while being humiliated all the that is while being humiliated all the that is while being humiliated all the way through. While being humiliated all way through. While being humiliated all way through. While being humiliated all the way through. And the way through. And the way through. And so the inverted commas humanity of of of so the inverted commas humanity of of of so the inverted commas humanity of of of the gas chambers is anything but. It's the gas chambers is anything but. It's the gas chambers is anything but. It's disgusting. A and the fact that people disgusting. A and the fact that people disgusting. A and the fact that people could do this is just beyond terrific. could do this is just beyond terrific. could do this is just beyond terrific. And then the fact that you are taking And then the fact that you are taking And then the fact that you are taking your Jewish prisoners and getting them your Jewish prisoners and getting them your Jewish prisoners and getting them to cut off all the hair, pull out the to cut off all the hair, pull out the to cut off all the hair, pull out the teeth of the dead before you put them on teeth of the dead before you put them on teeth of the dead before you put them on a lift and incinerate them. If you go to a lift and incinerate them. If you go to a lift and incinerate them. If you go to Avitz now and you go to the collapse, Avitz now and you go to the collapse, Avitz now and you go to the collapse, the blown up gas chambers which the the blown up gas chambers which the the blown up gas chambers which the Germans destroyed before the Russians Germans destroyed before the Russians Germans destroyed before the Russians overran them in January 45, you can overran them in January 45, you can overran them in January 45, you can still see some of the ash ponds. And still see some of the ash ponds. And still see some of the ash ponds. And there are bits of bone there but still there are bits of bone there but still there are bits of bone there but still there from the ash. It's just it is there from the ash. It's just it is there from the ash. It's just it is utterly repulsive. And imagine arriving utterly repulsive. And imagine arriving utterly repulsive. And imagine arriving from that train on that incredibly long from that train on that incredibly long from that train on that incredibly long journey where you've had no comforts journey where you've had no comforts journey where you've had no comforts whatsoever. You've had again you've had whatsoever. You've had again you've had whatsoever. You've had again you've had humiliations and privation you know the humiliations and privation you know the humiliations and privation you know the privations you've had to suffer as a

privations you've had to suffer as a privations you've had to suffer as a result of that you know of having to result of that you know of having to result of that you know of having to kind of defecate in a bucket in the kind of defecate in a bucket in the kind of defecate in a bucket in the corner in front of other people. It's corner in front of other people. It's corner in front of other people. It's just horrendous. And then you get there just horrendous. And then you get there just horrendous. And then you get there bewildered and immediately your kids are bewildered and immediately your kids are bewildered and immediately your kids are taken away from you or your you know taken away from you or your you know taken away from you or your you know husband and wife who've been married 20 husband and wife who've been married 20 husband and wife who've been married 20 years. They're separated just like that, years. They're separated just like that, years. They're separated just like that, sent off into different groups, straight sent off into different groups, straight sent off into different groups, straight to the gas chambers. I mean, you know, to the gas chambers. I mean, you know, to the gas chambers. I mean, you know, it is it the the the scale of cruelty is it is it the the the scale of cruelty is it is it the the the scale of cruelty is so immense. It's it's hard to fathom. so immense. It's it's hard to fathom. so immense. It's it's hard to fathom. And the thing that I find really And the thing that I find really And the thing that I find really difficult to difficult to difficult to reconcile and this is where I think the, reconcile and this is where I think the, reconcile and this is where I think the, you know, the warning from history is you know, the warning from history is you know, the warning from history is important is that Germany is such an important is that Germany is such an important is that Germany is such an amazing nation. You know, it's it's it's amazing nation. You know, it's it's it's amazing nation. You know, it's it's it's the it's the country of Beethovven and the it's the country of Beethovven and the it's the country of Beethovven and Strauss and and and of Gerta and Strauss and and and of Gerta and Strauss and and and of Gerta and incredible art and culture and and and incredible art and culture and and and incredible art and culture and and and some of the greatest engineers and some of the greatest engineers and some of the greatest engineers and scientists have ever lived. And look how scientists have ever lived. And look how scientists have ever lived. And look how quickly it flipped into the descent of quickly it flipped into the descent of quickly it flipped into the descent of unspeakable unspeakable unspeakable inhumity which manifested itself in the inhumity which manifested itself in the inhumity which manifested itself in the Holocaust and the gas chambers um and Holocaust and the gas chambers um and Holocaust and the gas chambers um and the executions into pits the executions into pits the executions into pits and tiny places and creeks and tiny places and creeks and tiny places and creeks in Lithuania or Ukraine or whatever. I in Lithuania or Ukraine or whatever. I in Lithuania or Ukraine or whatever. I mean it's it's it's just horrendous. And mean it's it's it's just horrendous. And mean it's it's it's just horrendous. And you know this is from a nation which a you know this is from a nation which a you know this is from a nation which a decade earlier had been a democracy. It decade earlier had been a democracy. It decade earlier had been a democracy. It seems like as a human civilization, we seems like as a human civilization, we seems like as a human civilization, we walk that soldier in line between good walk that soldier in line between good walk that soldier in line between good and evil. Uh it's a thin line and we we and evil. Uh it's a thin line and we we and evil. Uh it's a thin line and we we have to walk it carefully. Yes.

have to walk it carefully. Yes. have to walk it carefully. Yes. So I one of the great So I one of the great So I one of the great battles in uh in World War battles in uh in World War battles in uh in World War II on the Western Front is Normandy. I II on the Western Front is Normandy. I II on the Western Front is Normandy. I have to talk to you about Normandy. have to talk to you about Normandy. have to talk to you about Normandy. D-Day, the Normandy landings, the famous D-Day, the Normandy landings, the famous D-Day, the Normandy landings, the famous on June 6th, on June 6th, on June 6th, 1944. This was a Allied invasion of Nazi 1944. This was a Allied invasion of Nazi 1944. This was a Allied invasion of Nazi occupied Western Europe. What was the occupied Western Europe. What was the occupied Western Europe. What was the planning? And it was lengthy planning. planning? And it was lengthy planning. planning? And it was lengthy planning. What was the planning? What was the What was the planning? What was the What was the planning? What was the execution of the Normandy landings? execution of the Normandy landings? execution of the Normandy landings? Well, the decision to finally go into Well, the decision to finally go into Well, the decision to finally go into when the Americans joined the war in when the Americans joined the war in when the Americans joined the war in December 1941, there's the Arcadia December 1941, there's the Arcadia December 1941, there's the Arcadia conference few days later, week later conference few days later, week later conference few days later, week later between the British chiefs of staff and between the British chiefs of staff and between the British chiefs of staff and political leader Churchill and Roosevelt political leader Churchill and Roosevelt political leader Churchill and Roosevelt and his own chiefs of staff about what and his own chiefs of staff about what and his own chiefs of staff about what the policy should be. And the policy is the policy should be. And the policy is the policy should be. And the policy is to get American troops over to Europe as to get American troops over to Europe as to get American troops over to Europe as quickly as possible, get them over to quickly as possible, get them over to quickly as possible, get them over to Britain, get them training um and get Britain, get them training um and get Britain, get them training um and get them across the channel ASAP and and them across the channel ASAP and and them across the channel ASAP and and start the liberation of Europe. But the start the liberation of Europe. But the start the liberation of Europe. But the reality is that that that in 1942 the reality is that that that in 1942 the reality is that that that in 1942 the Americans just aren't ready. You know, Americans just aren't ready. You know, Americans just aren't ready. You know, they've gone from this incredibly tiny they've gone from this incredibly tiny they've gone from this incredibly tiny army. They're still growing. They've got army. They're still growing. They've got army. They're still growing. They've got no battlefield experience. The British no battlefield experience. The British no battlefield experience. The British are still recovering. You know, they're are still recovering. You know, they're are still recovering. You know, they're good on the naval power. They're kind of good on the naval power. They're kind of good on the naval power. They're kind of increasingly good on air power. Um but increasingly good on air power. Um but increasingly good on air power. Um but but but land power, they've had to kind but but land power, they've had to kind but but land power, they've had to kind of make up from the loss of their ally of make up from the loss of their ally of make up from the loss of their ally France and and expand as well. So kind France and and expand as well. So kind France and and expand as well. So kind of ground zero for both America and of ground zero for both America and of ground zero for both America and Britain has been kind of June 1940 1940 Britain has been kind of June 1940 1940 Britain has been kind of June 1940 1940 when France is out and suddenly that's when France is out and suddenly that's when France is out and suddenly that's the strategic earthquake and that's the the strategic earthquake and that's the the strategic earthquake and that's the the issue that needs settling and and

the issue that needs settling and and the issue that needs settling and and they need to just completely realign they need to just completely realign they need to just completely realign everything that they they'd fought in everything that they they'd fought in everything that they they'd fought in 1949. They've got to start again but 1949. They've got to start again but 1949. They've got to start again but it's also becomes clear that it's it's also becomes clear that it's it's also becomes clear that it's they're not really ready in 1943 either. they're not really ready in 1943 either. they're not really ready in 1943 either. And one of the problems is is that And one of the problems is is that And one of the problems is is that Molotov, who is the Soviet foreign Molotov, who is the Soviet foreign Molotov, who is the Soviet foreign minister, has come over to Britain in minister, has come over to Britain in minister, has come over to Britain in May 1942 and said, you know, we need you May 1942 and said, you know, we need you May 1942 and said, you know, we need you to kind of do your bit and get on the to kind of do your bit and get on the to kind of do your bit and get on the get on the on the campaign trail against get on the on the campaign trail against get on the on the campaign trail against the Germans and fight on the ground. And the Germans and fight on the ground. And the Germans and fight on the ground. And the British sort of going, well, yeah, the British sort of going, well, yeah, the British sort of going, well, yeah, but you know, cross channel invasion is but you know, cross channel invasion is but you know, cross channel invasion is not really going to happen. We know not really going to happen. We know not really going to happen. We know we're doing that in North Africa at the we're doing that in North Africa at the we're doing that in North Africa at the moment. Then he goes over to Washington moment. Then he goes over to Washington moment. Then he goes over to Washington and and um and the Americans go, you and and um and the Americans go, you and and um and the Americans go, you know, we are definitely going to go and know, we are definitely going to go and know, we are definitely going to go and take on the attack to the uh the Germans take on the attack to the uh the Germans take on the attack to the uh the Germans in 1942. They've made this promise. So in 1942. They've made this promise. So in 1942. They've made this promise. So in the summer of 1942 it becomes clear in the summer of 1942 it becomes clear in the summer of 1942 it becomes clear that they can't keep that. So Churchill that they can't keep that. So Churchill that they can't keep that. So Churchill says, "Well, look, I've got here's an says, "Well, look, I've got here's an says, "Well, look, I've got here's an idea. You know, we're in we've got idea. You know, we're in we've got idea. You know, we're in we've got already got an army in in Egypt. Why already got an army in in Egypt. Why already got an army in in Egypt. Why don't we land another one in Northwest don't we land another one in Northwest don't we land another one in Northwest Europe? We can Northwest Africa. We can Europe? We can Northwest Africa. We can Europe? We can Northwest Africa. We can that's run by Vichy France, which is that's run by Vichy France, which is that's run by Vichy France, which is pro-ac French um colonies. Um why don't pro-ac French um colonies. Um why don't pro-ac French um colonies. Um why don't we take that? We can do that and then we we take that? We can do that and then we we take that? We can do that and then we can meet in the middle. We can pinch can meet in the middle. We can pinch can meet in the middle. We can pinch around. We can conquer the whole of around. We can conquer the whole of around. We can conquer the whole of North Africa. You can kill with two North Africa. You can kill with two North Africa. You can kill with two birds and one stones because you can get birds and one stones because you can get birds and one stones because you can get some experience fighting against Axis some experience fighting against Axis some experience fighting against Axis troops. you know, test some of your your troops. you know, test some of your your troops. you know, test some of your your your equipment and commanders, you know, your equipment and commanders, you know, your equipment and commanders, you know, what's not to like and then we can sort what's not to like and then we can sort what's not to like and then we can sort of see how it goes. So, this is a kind of see how it goes. So, this is a kind of see how it goes. So, this is a kind of opportunistic strategy, whereas the of opportunistic strategy, whereas the of opportunistic strategy, whereas the Americans are very much sort of, you Americans are very much sort of, you Americans are very much sort of, you know, we we want to draw a straight line know, we we want to draw a straight line know, we we want to draw a straight line to Berlin and that's the quickest way to Berlin and that's the quickest way to Berlin and that's the quickest way and let's do do it that way. So, it's a and let's do do it that way. So, it's a and let's do do it that way. So, it's a kind of a different viewpoint and but kind of a different viewpoint and but kind of a different viewpoint and but Roosevelt kind of gets that and agrees Roosevelt kind of gets that and agrees Roosevelt kind of gets that and agrees to that. So that's where the whole North to that. So that's where the whole North to that. So that's where the whole North Africa Mediterranean campaign comes Africa Mediterranean campaign comes Africa Mediterranean campaign comes from. And as a consequence of the huge from. And as a consequence of the huge from. And as a consequence of the huge commitment to Tunisia, you know, three

commitment to Tunisia, you know, three commitment to Tunisia, you know, three and a half thousand aircraft, huge and a half thousand aircraft, huge and a half thousand aircraft, huge navies, you know, two army allied armies navies, you know, two army allied armies navies, you know, two army allied armies um in North Africa by the time Tunisa is um in North Africa by the time Tunisa is um in North Africa by the time Tunisa is won in midmay 1943. They think, well, we won in midmay 1943. They think, well, we won in midmay 1943. They think, well, we got all this here. We might as well kind got all this here. We might as well kind got all this here. We might as well kind of really try and get put the nail into of really try and get put the nail into of really try and get put the nail into the coffin of Italy's war, get them out the coffin of Italy's war, get them out the coffin of Italy's war, get them out of the battle. You know, Sicily is an of the battle. You know, Sicily is an of the battle. You know, Sicily is an obvious one. Let's go in there and then obvious one. Let's go in there and then obvious one. Let's go in there and then we can take a view. But between Sicily we can take a view. But between Sicily we can take a view. But between Sicily happening and the fall of North Africa happening and the fall of North Africa happening and the fall of North Africa is the Trident Conference in Washington. is the Trident Conference in Washington. is the Trident Conference in Washington. And that is where the decisions made. And that is where the decisions made. And that is where the decisions made. The Americans go, "Okay, enough of this The Americans go, "Okay, enough of this The Americans go, "Okay, enough of this opportunistic stuff. Let's just okay, we opportunistic stuff. Let's just okay, we opportunistic stuff. Let's just okay, we get it. We buy it. But no more faffing get it. We buy it. But no more faffing get it. We buy it. But no more faffing around. You know, May 1944, one year around. You know, May 1944, one year around. You know, May 1944, one year hence, we are going to cross the hence, we are going to cross the hence, we are going to cross the Atlantic." And the British go, "Okay, Atlantic." And the British go, "Okay, Atlantic." And the British go, "Okay, fair fair cop. We'll we'll do that." So fair fair cop. We'll we'll do that." So fair fair cop. We'll we'll do that." So So that is where Operation Overlord, as So that is where Operation Overlord, as So that is where Operation Overlord, as it becomes, gets given its code name, it becomes, gets given its code name, it becomes, gets given its code name, its operational name. That's when the its operational name. That's when the its operational name. That's when the planning starts. Serious planning starts planning starts. Serious planning starts planning starts. Serious planning starts at the beginning of 1944. And one of the at the beginning of 1944. And one of the at the beginning of 1944. And one of the lessons from Sicily to Normandy is that lessons from Sicily to Normandy is that lessons from Sicily to Normandy is that you can't have commanders fighting one you can't have commanders fighting one you can't have commanders fighting one battle whilst preparing for the next battle whilst preparing for the next battle whilst preparing for the next one. So you have to have a separate um one. So you have to have a separate um one. So you have to have a separate um uh command structure. And that's okay uh command structure. And that's okay uh command structure. And that's okay because by this time you got enough because by this time you got enough because by this time you got enough people that have got experience with people that have got experience with people that have got experience with battlefield command that you can battlefield command that you can battlefield command that you can actually split it. There are very good actually split it. There are very good actually split it. There are very good reasons for going into Italy, not least reasons for going into Italy, not least reasons for going into Italy, not least getting the fodger airfields so that you getting the fodger airfields so that you getting the fodger airfields so that you can further tighten the noose around can further tighten the noose around can further tighten the noose around around Nazi Germany. And one of the around Nazi Germany. And one of the around Nazi Germany. And one of the great prerequisites for the Normandy great prerequisites for the Normandy great prerequisites for the Normandy invasion is total control of air of the invasion is total control of air of the invasion is total control of air of the air of the airspace, not just over air of the airspace, not just over air of the airspace, not just over Normandy, but over a large swave of Normandy, but over a large swave of Normandy, but over a large swave of northwest Europe. Why is that? Because northwest Europe. Why is that? Because northwest Europe. Why is that? Because the moment you land in Normandy, the cat

the moment you land in Normandy, the cat the moment you land in Normandy, the cat is out of the bag. And it's then a race is out of the bag. And it's then a race is out of the bag. And it's then a race between which side can build up meta between which side can build up meta between which side can build up meta material quickest. Is it going to be the material quickest. Is it going to be the material quickest. Is it going to be the Allies who've got to come from southern Allies who've got to come from southern Allies who've got to come from southern England, which is a distance of a slow England, which is a distance of a slow England, which is a distance of a slow journey across seas and a distance journey across seas and a distance journey across seas and a distance between kind of 80 and 130 mi away, or between kind of 80 and 130 mi away, or between kind of 80 and 130 mi away, or is it going to be the Germans that are is it going to be the Germans that are is it going to be the Germans that are already on the continent? Well, clearly already on the continent? Well, clearly already on the continent? Well, clearly on paper it's the Germans. So, you have on paper it's the Germans. So, you have on paper it's the Germans. So, you have to slow up the Germans. Well, how do you to slow up the Germans. Well, how do you to slow up the Germans. Well, how do you do that? You do that by destroying their do that? You do that by destroying their do that? You do that by destroying their means of getting there. So, bridges, means of getting there. So, bridges, means of getting there. So, bridges, destroy all the bridges over the sane, destroy all the bridges over the sane, destroy all the bridges over the sane, destroy all the bridges over the RVI, destroy all the bridges over the RVI, destroy all the bridges over the RVI, hit the marshalling yards. the German hit the marshalling yards. the German hit the marshalling yards. the German the glue that keeps the German war the glue that keeps the German war the glue that keeps the German war machine together is the Reichkes barn machine together is the Reichkes barn machine together is the Reichkes barn the German railway network. So destroy the German railway network. So destroy the German railway network. So destroy the railway as much as you possibly can the railway as much as you possibly can the railway as much as you possibly can and make it difficult for the Germans to and make it difficult for the Germans to and make it difficult for the Germans to reinforce the the the Normandy British reinforce the the the Normandy British reinforce the the the Normandy British head as and when it comes. But the way head as and when it comes. But the way head as and when it comes. But the way you do that in turn is by very low-level you do that in turn is by very low-level you do that in turn is by very low-level precision bombing and that has to be precision bombing and that has to be precision bombing and that has to be done by by twin engine faster smaller done by by twin engine faster smaller done by by twin engine faster smaller bombers going in low. But the problem is bombers going in low. But the problem is bombers going in low. But the problem is is you can't go low and and and destroy is you can't go low and and and destroy is you can't go low and and and destroy those bridges if you've got fucker those bridges if you've got fucker those bridges if you've got fucker wolves and measure smmiths hovering wolves and measure smmiths hovering wolves and measure smmiths hovering above you. So you've got to destroy above you. So you've got to destroy above you. So you've got to destroy those, which is why you need to have air those, which is why you need to have air those, which is why you need to have air superiority over this large wave of superiority over this large wave of superiority over this large wave of Northwest Europe to do that. The problem Northwest Europe to do that. The problem Northwest Europe to do that. The problem is that while the industrial heartland is that while the industrial heartland is that while the industrial heartland of Nazi Germany is in the west is in the of Nazi Germany is in the west is in the of Nazi Germany is in the west is in the rural era, which is very convenient for rural era, which is very convenient for rural era, which is very convenient for bombers coming out of Lincolnshire or bombers coming out of Lincolnshire or bombers coming out of Lincolnshire or East Anglia on the east flat east side East Anglia on the east flat east side East Anglia on the east flat east side of of Great Britain. the aircraft of of Great Britain. the aircraft of of Great Britain. the aircraft industry is much deeper into the Reich industry is much deeper into the Reich industry is much deeper into the Reich and it is beyond the the range of and it is beyond the the range of and it is beyond the the range of fighter escorts for the bombers and the fighter escorts for the bombers and the fighter escorts for the bombers and the American daylight bombers who are going

American daylight bombers who are going American daylight bombers who are going over are discovering that despite being over are discovering that despite being over are discovering that despite being called flying fortresses they're not called flying fortresses they're not called flying fortresses they're not fortresses they're actually getting fortresses they're actually getting fortresses they're actually getting decimated and whenever their bombers go decimated and whenever their bombers go decimated and whenever their bombers go in strength over to try and hit the in strength over to try and hit the in strength over to try and hit the aircraft industry in Germany beyond aircraft industry in Germany beyond aircraft industry in Germany beyond fighter range they get decimated first fighter range they get decimated first fighter range they get decimated first infamously on the Schwin Reagers raid on infamously on the Schwin Reagers raid on infamously on the Schwin Reagers raid on the 17th of August 1943 coincidentally the 17th of August 1943 coincidentally the 17th of August 1943 coincidentally the same day that Sicily falls to the the same day that Sicily falls to the the same day that Sicily falls to the allies. Um, and also coincidentally the allies. Um, and also coincidentally the allies. Um, and also coincidentally the same day that face-to-face negotiations same day that face-to-face negotiations same day that face-to-face negotiations begin with the Italians for an armistice begin with the Italians for an armistice begin with the Italians for an armistice in Lisbon. But on that day of the 324 in Lisbon. But on that day of the 324 in Lisbon. But on that day of the 324 heavy bombers that the Americans send heavy bombers that the Americans send heavy bombers that the Americans send over to hit Schweinford and Regensburg over to hit Schweinford and Regensburg over to hit Schweinford and Regensburg where there are mesh plant and and also where there are mesh plant and and also where there are mesh plant and and also a ball bearing plant which is essential a ball bearing plant which is essential a ball bearing plant which is essential for aircraft manufacturing. Um, they for aircraft manufacturing. Um, they for aircraft manufacturing. Um, they lose 60 shot down and a further 130 odd lose 60 shot down and a further 130 odd lose 60 shot down and a further 130 odd really badly damaged. And even for the really badly damaged. And even for the really badly damaged. And even for the vast numbers of manpower and and bombers vast numbers of manpower and and bombers vast numbers of manpower and and bombers that are coming out of America, this is that are coming out of America, this is that are coming out of America, this is too much. So they can't sustain it. So too much. So they can't sustain it. So too much. So they can't sustain it. So they've got to find a fighter escort they've got to find a fighter escort they've got to find a fighter escort that's going to be able to escort them that's going to be able to escort them that's going to be able to escort them all the way into the into the Reich. And all the way into the into the Reich. And all the way into the into the Reich. And the race is on because basically if they the race is on because basically if they the race is on because basically if they haven't got one airspace by April haven't got one airspace by April haven't got one airspace by April 1944, it's game over. You can't do a 1944, it's game over. You can't do a 1944, it's game over. You can't do a cross channel invasion. You have to have cross channel invasion. You have to have cross channel invasion. You have to have that control of the airspace beforehand.

that control of the airspace beforehand. that control of the airspace beforehand. So the race is on. Unfortunately, they So the race is on. Unfortunately, they So the race is on. Unfortunately, they come with a solution, which is the P-51 come with a solution, which is the P-51 come with a solution, which is the P-51 Mustang, which has originally been Mustang, which has originally been Mustang, which has originally been commissioned in May 1940 by the British, commissioned in May 1940 by the British, commissioned in May 1940 by the British, developed from sketches to reality in developed from sketches to reality in developed from sketches to reality in 117 days. It's a work of absolute 117 days. It's a work of absolute 117 days. It's a work of absolute genius. But Stal is harnessed with a genius. But Stal is harnessed with a genius. But Stal is harnessed with a really bad engine. The Allison engine is really bad engine. The Allison engine is really bad engine. The Allison engine is just not not right for that aircraft. just not not right for that aircraft. just not not right for that aircraft. And it's not until a Rolls-Royce Merlin, And it's not until a Rolls-Royce Merlin, And it's not until a Rolls-Royce Merlin, which is the same one that powers the which is the same one that powers the which is the same one that powers the Lancaster, the Mosquito, and Spitfire Lancaster, the Mosquito, and Spitfire Lancaster, the Mosquito, and Spitfire and Huracan is put into the P-51 Mustang and Huracan is put into the P-51 Mustang and Huracan is put into the P-51 Mustang that suddenly you've got your solution that suddenly you've got your solution that suddenly you've got your solution because that means it can now fly with because that means it can now fly with because that means it can now fly with extra drop tanks and fuel tanks, it can extra drop tanks and fuel tanks, it can extra drop tanks and fuel tanks, it can um it's it's so aerodynamic and it's so um it's it's so aerodynamic and it's so um it's it's so aerodynamic and it's so good. The higher it goes with this good. The higher it goes with this good. The higher it goes with this engine, the more fuel efficient it engine, the more fuel efficient it engine, the more fuel efficient it becomes, it can actually fly, you know, becomes, it can actually fly, you know, becomes, it can actually fly, you know, over,400 miles, which gets you not just over,400 miles, which gets you not just over,400 miles, which gets you not just to Berlin and back, but to Warsaw and to Berlin and back, but to Warsaw and to Berlin and back, but to Warsaw and back. So, suddenly you've got that back. So, suddenly you've got that back. So, suddenly you've got that solution. Uh a and actually by April solution. Uh a and actually by April solution. Uh a and actually by April 1944 they have cleared airspace and by 1944 they have cleared airspace and by 1944 they have cleared airspace and by the end of May 1944 just on the eve of the end of May 1944 just on the eve of the end of May 1944 just on the eve of the invasion uh operation overlord the the invasion uh operation overlord the the invasion uh operation overlord the closest German aircraft that is seen closest German aircraft that is seen closest German aircraft that is seen fighting um allied aircraft is 500 miles fighting um allied aircraft is 500 miles fighting um allied aircraft is 500 miles from the beach head. So it is absolutely from the beach head. So it is absolutely from the beach head. So it is absolutely job done.

job done. job done. Meanwhile, new fighter, comparatively Meanwhile, new fighter, comparatively Meanwhile, new fighter, comparatively new um ground attack fighter planes like new um ground attack fighter planes like new um ground attack fighter planes like Typhoons and Tempests and adapted um uh Typhoons and Tempests and adapted um uh Typhoons and Tempests and adapted um uh um P-47 Thunderbolts are attacking the um P-47 Thunderbolts are attacking the um P-47 Thunderbolts are attacking the German radar stations all along the the German radar stations all along the the German radar stations all along the the coastline. They now do have an air coastline. They now do have an air coastline. They now do have an air defense system. Um they're destroying defense system. Um they're destroying defense system. Um they're destroying kind of uh um 90% of their kind of uh um 90% of their kind of uh um 90% of their effectiveness. And in the intelligence effectiveness. And in the intelligence effectiveness. And in the intelligence game, they're winning that one as well. game, they're winning that one as well. game, they're winning that one as well. They're just much better because in They're just much better because in They're just much better because in Germany, intelligence is power. So Germany, intelligence is power. So Germany, intelligence is power. So people tend to you know and Hitler people tend to you know and Hitler people tend to you know and Hitler always has this kind of divide and rule always has this kind of divide and rule always has this kind of divide and rule thing going on. So you have parallel thing going on. So you have parallel thing going on. So you have parallel command structures which is not command structures which is not command structures which is not conducive to bringing together of conducive to bringing together of conducive to bringing together of intelligence and while much play has intelligence and while much play has intelligence and while much play has been made about the successes of been made about the successes of been made about the successes of Bletchley and code breaking and all the Bletchley and code breaking and all the Bletchley and code breaking and all the rest of it. Actually what you have to do rest of it. Actually what you have to do rest of it. Actually what you have to do is you have to see the kind of the is you have to see the kind of the is you have to see the kind of the decrypts that the Bletchley cryp decrypts that the Bletchley cryp decrypts that the Bletchley cryp analysts do as just a cog and that those analysts do as just a cog and that those analysts do as just a cog and that those various cogs together from listening various cogs together from listening various cogs together from listening services to photo reconnaissance to services to photo reconnaissance to services to photo reconnaissance to agents on the ground to say the cogs agents on the ground to say the cogs agents on the ground to say the cogs collectively add up to more than some of collectively add up to more than some of collectively add up to more than some of their individual parts. So the their individual parts. So the their individual parts. So the intelligence picture is a broad picture intelligence picture is a broad picture intelligence picture is a broad picture rather than a than just codereing. But rather than a than just codereing. But rather than a than just codereing. But anyway they they win that particular anyway they they win that particular anyway they they win that particular battle as well. And what you see really battle as well. And what you see really battle as well. And what you see really with D-Day is, I think, is the zenith of with D-Day is, I think, is the zenith of with D-Day is, I think, is the zenith of coal coalition warfare. What you've got coal coalition warfare. What you've got coal coalition warfare. What you've got is you've got multiple nations who have is you've got multiple nations who have is you've got multiple nations who have different uh overall aims, different different uh overall aims, different different uh overall aims, different cultures, um different attitudes, cultures, um different attitudes, cultures, um different attitudes, different start points, but they have different start points, but they have different start points, but they have all coalesed into one common goal. And all coalesed into one common goal. And all coalesed into one common goal. And for until they've achieved that common for until they've achieved that common for until they've achieved that common goal, they're kind of put differences to goal, they're kind of put differences to goal, they're kind of put differences to one side. you know, much play has been one side. you know, much play has been one side. you know, much play has been made about kind of anglophobia amongst

made about kind of anglophobia amongst made about kind of anglophobia amongst American um commanders and and America American um commanders and and America American um commanders and and America phobia amongst ally, you know, British phobia amongst ally, you know, British phobia amongst ally, you know, British commanders, but actually it's nothing. commanders, but actually it's nothing. commanders, but actually it's nothing. It's a marriage made in heaven compared It's a marriage made in heaven compared It's a marriage made in heaven compared to the way Germany teach looks after its to the way Germany teach looks after its to the way Germany teach looks after its own allies, for example. And what is own allies, for example. And what is own allies, for example. And what is remarkable about the um about the allies remarkable about the um about the allies remarkable about the um about the allies is they're not actually allies. They're is they're not actually allies. They're is they're not actually allies. They're coalition partners. So there's no formal coalition partners. So there's no formal coalition partners. So there's no formal alliance at all. And uh and there is a alliance at all. And uh and there is a alliance at all. And uh and there is a subtle difference there, but what you subtle difference there, but what you subtle difference there, but what you see them is you see see them is you see see them is you see them really really pulling together. And them really really pulling together. And them really really pulling together. And you see that manifest itself on D-Day, I you see that manifest itself on D-Day, I you see that manifest itself on D-Day, I think, where you've got, you know, think, where you've got, you know, think, where you've got, you know, 6,939 vessels of which there are 1,213 6,939 vessels of which there are 1,213 6,939 vessels of which there are 1,213 warships, warships, warships, 4,127 assaultcraft, 12,000 aircraft, you 4,127 assaultcraft, 12,000 aircraft, you 4,127 assaultcraft, 12,000 aircraft, you know, 155,000 men landed and dropped know, 155,000 men landed and dropped know, 155,000 men landed and dropped from the air in 24-hour period. from the air in 24-hour period. from the air in 24-hour period. It is phenomenal. It is absolutely It is phenomenal. It is absolutely It is phenomenal. It is absolutely phenomenal. And while it is still seen phenomenal. And while it is still seen phenomenal. And while it is still seen as a predominantly American show, all as a predominantly American show, all as a predominantly American show, all three service commanders are British. Um three service commanders are British. Um three service commanders are British. Um it is um most of the aircraft are it is um most of the aircraft are it is um most of the aircraft are twothirds of the aircraft are British.

twothirds of the aircraft are British. twothirds of the aircraft are British. Uh twothirds of the men landed are Uh twothirds of the men landed are Uh twothirds of the men landed are British in Dominion. You never forget British in Dominion. You never forget British in Dominion. You never forget the Canadians who consistently punch the Canadians who consistently punch the Canadians who consistently punch massively above their weight in the massively above their weight in the massively above their weight in the Second World War. Um in all aspects, it Second World War. Um in all aspects, it Second World War. Um in all aspects, it has to be said, air, land, and sea. Um has to be said, air, land, and sea. Um has to be said, air, land, and sea. Um they're key in the Battle of the they're key in the Battle of the they're key in the Battle of the Atlantic. They're key um in air power. Atlantic. They're key um in air power. Atlantic. They're key um in air power. their key D-Day and indeed in the battle their key D-Day and indeed in the battle their key D-Day and indeed in the battle for Italy as well. So the Canadians for Italy as well. So the Canadians for Italy as well. So the Canadians should never be forgotten. Um but but should never be forgotten. Um but but should never be forgotten. Um but but one of the reasons it is that the the one of the reasons it is that the the one of the reasons it is that the the that it is the British Navy that that it is the British Navy that that it is the British Navy that dominates in in D-Day is because of dominates in in D-Day is because of dominates in in D-Day is because of course the the course the the course the the incredibly enormous strength of the incredibly enormous strength of the incredibly enormous strength of the Royal Navy in the first place. But Royal Navy in the first place. But Royal Navy in the first place. But partly because most of the US Navy is by partly because most of the US Navy is by partly because most of the US Navy is by this stage in the Pacific fighting its this stage in the Pacific fighting its this stage in the Pacific fighting its own own fight. So it's not slacking by own own fight. So it's not slacking by own own fight. So it's not slacking by any stretch of the imagination. It is it any stretch of the imagination. It is it any stretch of the imagination. It is it is because it's elsewhere doing its bit is because it's elsewhere doing its bit is because it's elsewhere doing its bit for the kind of overall Allied cause. for the kind of overall Allied cause. for the kind of overall Allied cause. But D-Day is just extraordinary, you But D-Day is just extraordinary, you But D-Day is just extraordinary, you know, and despite the terrible weather, know, and despite the terrible weather, know, and despite the terrible weather, uh, which is a such a debilitating uh, which is a such a debilitating uh, which is a such a debilitating factor in the whole thing. I mean, it factor in the whole thing. I mean, it factor in the whole thing. I mean, it puts people off course, means many more puts people off course, means many more puts people off course, means many more people get killed on Omaha Beach than people get killed on Omaha Beach than people get killed on Omaha Beach than they might have done and on other they might have done and on other they might have done and on other beaches besides incidentally. And beaches besides incidentally. And beaches besides incidentally. And actually, in terms of lives lost actually, in terms of lives lost actually, in terms of lives lost proportionally, it is the Canadians that proportionally, it is the Canadians that proportionally, it is the Canadians that suffer the worst, more so than the suffer the worst, more so than the suffer the worst, more so than the Americans. It's just as fewer of them Americans. It's just as fewer of them Americans. It's just as fewer of them um, overall. um D-Day has to be seen as um, overall. um D-Day has to be seen as um, overall. um D-Day has to be seen as an unqualified success. I mean it is an unqualified success. I mean it is an unqualified success. I mean it is absolutely extraordinary what they absolutely extraordinary what they absolutely extraordinary what they achieve and while they don't 100% achieve and while they don't 100% achieve and while they don't 100% achieve their overall D-Day objectives achieve their overall D-Day objectives achieve their overall D-Day objectives you know the objectives are always going you know the objectives are always going you know the objectives are always going to be the outer reach of what is is can to be the outer reach of what is is can to be the outer reach of what is is can be can be achieved and you'd need be can be achieved and you'd need be can be achieved and you'd need absolutely perfect conditions for that absolutely perfect conditions for that absolutely perfect conditions for that to happen and they don't get perfect to happen and they don't get perfect to happen and they don't get perfect conditions but they're so balanced

conditions but they're so balanced conditions but they're so balanced they're so thought of absolutely they're so thought of absolutely they're so thought of absolutely everything and and their logistic supply everything and and their logistic supply everything and and their logistic supply and and I mean even things like the mind and and I mean even things like the mind and and I mean even things like the mind sweeping operation it's the biggest sweeping operation it's the biggest sweeping operation it's the biggest single mind sweeping operation of the single mind sweeping operation of the single mind sweeping operation of the entire war because there's huge entire war because there's huge entire war because there's huge minefields off the Normandy coast and minefields off the Normandy coast and minefields off the Normandy coast and ahead of the invasion force, the mind ahead of the invasion force, the mind ahead of the invasion force, the mind sweepers, which amount to I think sweepers, which amount to I think sweepers, which amount to I think something like 242 different mine something like 242 different mine something like 242 different mine sweepers in in five different operations sweepers in in five different operations sweepers in in five different operations AC opposite every single beach, creating AC opposite every single beach, creating AC opposite every single beach, creating lanes through these minefields through lanes through these minefields through lanes through these minefields through which the invasion force can go. Not a which the invasion force can go. Not a which the invasion force can go. Not a single ship is lost to a mine in the single ship is lost to a mine in the single ship is lost to a mine in the actual invasion. That is phenomenal and actual invasion. That is phenomenal and actual invasion. That is phenomenal and and and can only be done with the and and can only be done with the and and can only be done with the greatest of skill and planning and all greatest of skill and planning and all greatest of skill and planning and all in a period where you know there are no in a period where you know there are no in a period where you know there are no computers, there's no GPS, there's computers, there's no GPS, there's computers, there's no GPS, there's nothing. I mean it is it is absolutely nothing. I mean it is it is absolutely nothing. I mean it is it is absolutely astonishing and the scale of it is just astonishing and the scale of it is just astonishing and the scale of it is just frankly mind-boggling. Yeah. And that frankly mind-boggling. Yeah. And that frankly mind-boggling. Yeah. And that was really the the nail in the coffin was really the the nail in the coffin was really the the nail in the coffin the beginning of the end. Yeah. For for the beginning of the end. Yeah. For for the beginning of the end. Yeah. For for Hitler for the European theater. Yeah. Hitler for the European theater. Yeah. Hitler for the European theater. Yeah. Once you get the the only cause for Once you get the the only cause for Once you get the the only cause for doubt is will they be able to secure doubt is will they be able to secure doubt is will they be able to secure that bridge head. The moment they get that bridge head. The moment they get that bridge head. The moment they get that bridge head it is game over.

that bridge head it is game over. that bridge head it is game over. There's only, you know, there is there There's only, you know, there is there There's only, you know, there is there is no other way it's going to be because is no other way it's going to be because is no other way it's going to be because of the overwhelming amount of men and of the overwhelming amount of men and of the overwhelming amount of men and material that the allies have compared material that the allies have compared material that the allies have compared to the Germans at this stage of the war. to the Germans at this stage of the war. to the Germans at this stage of the war. And of course, you know, you're being And of course, you know, you're being And of course, you know, you're being attacked on three fronts because there's attacked on three fronts because there's attacked on three fronts because there's the Italian front to the south and of the Italian front to the south and of the Italian front to the south and of course in a very major way, you've also course in a very major way, you've also course in a very major way, you've also got the Eastern front and operation got the Eastern front and operation got the Eastern front and operation which is launched that that summer as which is launched that that summer as which is launched that that summer as well well well is enormous. So, let's go to the very is enormous. So, let's go to the very is enormous. So, let's go to the very end. Uh the battle of Berlin. Yeah. end. Uh the battle of Berlin. Yeah. end. Uh the battle of Berlin. Yeah. Uh Hitler sitting in his bunker, his Uh Hitler sitting in his bunker, his Uh Hitler sitting in his bunker, his suicide, Germany's surrender. You suicide, Germany's surrender. You suicide, Germany's surrender. You actually said that Downfall, the movie actually said that Downfall, the movie actually said that Downfall, the movie was a very accurate representation. I was a very accurate representation. I was a very accurate representation. I think it is really except that Gerbles think it is really except that Gerbles think it is really except that Gerbles took Sonide and shoot himself. took Sonide and shoot himself. took Sonide and shoot himself. Details, but I think it's probably it Details, but I think it's probably it Details, but I think it's probably it might be my favorite might be my favorite might be my favorite uh World War II movie, which is strange uh World War II movie, which is strange uh World War II movie, which is strange to say because it's not really about to say because it's not really about to say because it's not really about World War II. It's about Hitler in a World War II. It's about Hitler in a World War II. It's about Hitler in a bunker. But I think uh was it Bruno bunker. But I think uh was it Bruno bunker. But I think uh was it Bruno Gance, wasn't there? I think I think he Gance, wasn't there? I think I think he Gance, wasn't there? I think I think he he nailed him. Yeah, that's there's so he nailed him. Yeah, that's there's so he nailed him. Yeah, that's there's so many accounts of that. There's so much many accounts of that. There's so much many accounts of that. There's so much written about Hitler. There's so many of written about Hitler. There's so many of written about Hitler. There's so many of there's millions and millions of there's millions and millions of there's millions and millions of Hitler's words that you can read. You Hitler's words that you can read. You Hitler's words that you can read. You know, there are translations of many of know, there are translations of many of know, there are translations of many of his conferences. You can see what he's his conferences. You can see what he's his conferences. You can see what he's saying. He can get inside his head in a saying. He can get inside his head in a saying. He can get inside his head in a very clear way and much more clearly very clear way and much more clearly very clear way and much more clearly than you can Stalin or just about any than you can Stalin or just about any than you can Stalin or just about any other leader really.

other leader really. other leader really. And And And so what has a very very strong so what has a very very strong so what has a very very strong impression of what Hitler was like in impression of what Hitler was like in impression of what Hitler was like in the bunker in those last last days that the bunker in those last last days that the bunker in those last last days that just there's so many accounts of it just there's so many accounts of it just there's so many accounts of it and it just feels like they nailed it. and it just feels like they nailed it. and it just feels like they nailed it. It just feels like they've got it spot It just feels like they've got it spot It just feels like they've got it spot on to me. I mean it's a fascinating on to me. I mean it's a fascinating on to me. I mean it's a fascinating story of a story of a story of a evil maniac and then and this this evil maniac and then and this this evil maniac and then and this this certainty you know crumbling right like certainty you know crumbling right like certainty you know crumbling right like realizing that this vision of the realizing that this vision of the realizing that this vision of the thousand-year Reich is uh and Hitler thousand-year Reich is uh and Hitler thousand-year Reich is uh and Hitler says says you know my reputation won't says says you know my reputation won't says says you know my reputation won't be good to start off with but I hope in be good to start off with but I hope in be good to start off with but I hope in a few years time that people start to a few years time that people start to a few years time that people start to realize that kind of all the good I was realize that kind of all the good I was realize that kind of all the good I was trying to bring. Yeah that sort of trying to bring. Yeah that sort of trying to bring. Yeah that sort of they're all the same aren't they? You they're all the same aren't they? You they're all the same aren't they? You always believe you're doing good. Yeah. always believe you're doing good. Yeah. always believe you're doing good. Yeah. And there's so many deep lessons there. And there's so many deep lessons there. And there's so many deep lessons there. So now you have written so much, you So now you have written so much, you So now you have written so much, you have said so much, you have studied this have said so much, you have studied this have said so much, you have studied this so much. What to you looking at World so much. What to you looking at World so much. What to you looking at World War II is uh the lessons we should take War II is uh the lessons we should take War II is uh the lessons we should take away. Well, I suppose it's it's it's away. Well, I suppose it's it's it's away. Well, I suppose it's it's it's what happens when you allow these what happens when you allow these what happens when you allow these individuals to take hold of great power individuals to take hold of great power individuals to take hold of great power and great authority and make these and great authority and make these and great authority and make these terrible decisions. If you allow that to terrible decisions. If you allow that to terrible decisions. If you allow that to happen, you know, there are consequences happen, you know, there are consequences happen, you know, there are consequences and you have to be you have to recognize and you have to be you have to recognize and you have to be you have to recognize the moments of of trouble when they the moments of of trouble when they the moments of of trouble when they arise. So when there are financial arise. So when there are financial arise. So when there are financial crisis, you know that political unrest crisis, you know that political unrest crisis, you know that political unrest is going to come and you need to be is going to come and you need to be is going to come and you need to be prepared for that. You know, you need to

prepared for that. You know, you need to prepared for that. You know, you need to be able to see the writing on the wall. be able to see the writing on the wall. be able to see the writing on the wall. You you You you You you can't you can't be complacent. You know, can't you can't be complacent. You know, can't you can't be complacent. You know, complacency is such a dirty word, isn't complacency is such a dirty word, isn't complacency is such a dirty word, isn't it? you know, you've got you've got to it? you know, you've got you've got to it? you know, you've got you've got to keep your wits and and you can't take keep your wits and and you can't take keep your wits and and you can't take things for granted. You've got to things for granted. You've got to things for granted. You've got to recognize, I think, um, that the recognize, I think, um, that the recognize, I think, um, that the freedoms we enjoy in the West freedoms we enjoy in the West freedoms we enjoy in the West are, you know, they're not necessarily are, you know, they're not necessarily are, you know, they're not necessarily permanent permanent permanent and you need to make the most of them and you need to make the most of them and you need to make the most of them while you've got them and cherish them while you've got them and cherish them while you've got them and cherish them and consider what happens if the milk and consider what happens if the milk and consider what happens if the milk turns sour and what the consequences of turns sour and what the consequences of turns sour and what the consequences of that are. I mean, actually overriding that are. I mean, actually overriding that are. I mean, actually overriding because although I don't think it'll because although I don't think it'll because although I don't think it'll ever be a a war on the scale of the ever be a a war on the scale of the ever be a a war on the scale of the Second World War, you've only got to Second World War, you've only got to Second World War, you've only got to look at pictures of those opening days look at pictures of those opening days look at pictures of those opening days of the war in Ukraine and see sort of of the war in Ukraine and see sort of of the war in Ukraine and see sort of knocked out Russian tanks and dead knocked out Russian tanks and dead knocked out Russian tanks and dead bodies, bloated bodies all over the bodies, bloated bodies all over the bodies, bloated bodies all over the place, put that into black and white place, put that into black and white place, put that into black and white and, you know, it could be the road out and, you know, it could be the road out and, you know, it could be the road out of fal in 1944. It could be, you know, of fal in 1944. It could be, you know, of fal in 1944. It could be, you know, any number of German battlefields any number of German battlefields any number of German battlefields in in the in World War II and and the in in the in World War II and and the in in the in World War II and and the similarities and the trenches and the similarities and the trenches and the similarities and the trenches and the kind of people hiding in foxholes and, kind of people hiding in foxholes and, kind of people hiding in foxholes and, you know, that that's that's horribly you know, that that's that's horribly you know, that that's that's horribly reminiscent as are the huge casualties reminiscent as are the huge casualties reminiscent as are the huge casualties that they're suffering on both sides, that they're suffering on both sides, that they're suffering on both sides, whether they be Russian or Ukrainian.

whether they be Russian or Ukrainian. whether they be Russian or Ukrainian. And, you know, it's a shock. It's a And, you know, it's a shock. It's a And, you know, it's a shock. It's a shock to see that. Um, shock to see that. Um, shock to see that. Um, and it reminds you of just how quickly I and it reminds you of just how quickly I and it reminds you of just how quickly I think things can descend. So that's think things can descend. So that's think things can descend. So that's that's uh that's the other thing you that's uh that's the other thing you that's uh that's the other thing you know that point I was making about how know that point I was making about how know that point I was making about how quickly Germany descended from this quickly Germany descended from this quickly Germany descended from this amazing nation of arts and culture and amazing nation of arts and culture and amazing nation of arts and culture and science and development and engineering science and development and engineering science and development and engineering into one of the Holocaust. I into one of the Holocaust. I into one of the Holocaust. I mean life is fragile and and peace is mean life is fragile and and peace is mean life is fragile and and peace is fragile and you know fragile and you know fragile and you know it's you take it for granted at your it's you take it for granted at your it's you take it for granted at your peril and you take for granted at our peril and you take for granted at our peril and you take for granted at our peril that nobody will use nuclear peril that nobody will use nuclear peril that nobody will use nuclear weapons ever again and that's not a weapons ever again and that's not a weapons ever again and that's not a thing we should take for granted. No thing we should take for granted. No thing we should take for granted. No sir. What gives you hope about the sir. What gives you hope about the sir. What gives you hope about the future of human civilization? We've been future of human civilization? We've been future of human civilization? We've been talking about all this darkness in the talking about all this darkness in the talking about all this darkness in the 20th century. What's the source of 20th century. What's the source of 20th century. What's the source of light? The source of light is that I light? The source of light is that I light? The source of light is that I think the vast majority of people are think the vast majority of people are think the vast majority of people are good people who want to live peacefully good people who want to live peacefully good people who want to live peacefully and want to live happily and are not and want to live happily and are not and want to live happily and are not filled with hate. And there are some filled with hate. And there are some filled with hate. And there are some brilliant minds out there. And I think brilliant minds out there. And I think brilliant minds out there. And I think the capacity for the human brain to come the capacity for the human brain to come the capacity for the human brain to come up with new developments and new answers up with new developments and new answers up with new developments and new answers to problems and challenges to problems and challenges to problems and challenges is infinite. And I think that's what is infinite. And I think that's what is infinite. And I think that's what gives me gives me gives me hope. James, this is uh I'm a big fan.

hope. James, this is uh I'm a big fan. hope. James, this is uh I'm a big fan. This was an honor to talk to you and This was an honor to talk to you and This was an honor to talk to you and please keep putting incredible history please keep putting incredible history please keep putting incredible history out there. Um I can't wait to see what out there. Um I can't wait to see what out there. Um I can't wait to see what you do next. Thank you so much for you do next. Thank you so much for you do next. Thank you so much for talking today. Well, thank you, Lex. talking today. Well, thank you, Lex. talking today. Well, thank you, Lex. It's been a It's a privilege to talk to It's been a It's a privilege to talk to It's been a It's a privilege to talk to you. Thanks for listening to this you. Thanks for listening to this you. Thanks for listening to this conversation with James Holland. To conversation with James Holland. To conversation with James Holland. To support this podcast, please check out support this podcast, please check out support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description or at our sponsors in the description or at our sponsors in the description or at lexfreeman.com/sponsors. And now, let me lexfreeman.com/sponsors. And now, let me lexfreeman.com/sponsors. And now, let me leave you with some words from Winston leave you with some words from Winston leave you with some words from Winston Churchill. If you're going through hell, Churchill. If you're going through hell, Churchill. If you're going through hell, keep keep keep going. Thank you for listening and hope going. Thank you for listening and hope going. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.