Janna Levin: Black Holes, Wormholes, Aliens, Paradoxes & Extra Dimensions | Lex Fridman Podcast #468

Black holes curve space and time around Black holes curve space and time around them in the way that we've been them in the way that we've been them in the way that we've been describing. Things follow along the describing. Things follow along the describing. Things follow along the curves in space. If the black holes move curves in space. If the black holes move curves in space. If the black holes move around, the curves have to follow them, around, the curves have to follow them, around, the curves have to follow them, right? But they can't travel faster than right? But they can't travel faster than right? But they can't travel faster than the speed of light either. So what the speed of light either. So what the speed of light either. So what happens is black holes, let's say, move happens is black holes, let's say, move happens is black holes, let's say, move around. Maybe I've got two black holes around. Maybe I've got two black holes around. Maybe I've got two black holes in orbit around each other. That can in orbit around each other. That can in orbit around each other. That can happen. It takes a while. A wave is happen. It takes a while. A wave is happen. It takes a while. A wave is created in the actual shape of space. created in the actual shape of space. created in the actual shape of space. And that wave follows the black holes. And that wave follows the black holes. And that wave follows the black holes. Those black holes are undulating. Those black holes are undulating. Those black holes are undulating. Eventually, those two black holes will Eventually, those two black holes will Eventually, those two black holes will merge. And as we were talking about, it merge. And as we were talking about, it merge. And as we were talking about, it doesn't take an infinite time, even doesn't take an infinite time, even doesn't take an infinite time, even though there's time dilation because though there's time dilation because though there's time dilation because they're both so big. They're really they're both so big. They're really they're both so big. They're really deforming spaceime a lot. I don't have a deforming spaceime a lot. I don't have a deforming spaceime a lot. I don't have a little tiny marble falling across an little tiny marble falling across an little tiny marble falling across an event horizon. I have two event event horizon. I have two event event horizon. I have two event horizons. And in the simulations, you horizons. And in the simulations, you horizons. And in the simulations, you can see it bobble and they merge can see it bobble and they merge can see it bobble and they merge together. They make one bigger black together. They make one bigger black together. They make one bigger black hole. And then it radiates in the hole. And then it radiates in the hole. And then it radiates in the gravitational waves. It radiates away gravitational waves. It radiates away gravitational waves. It radiates away all those imperfections and it settles all those imperfections and it settles all those imperfections and it settles down to one quscent perfectly silent down to one quscent perfectly silent down to one quscent perfectly silent black hole that's spinning. Beautiful black hole that's spinning. Beautiful black hole that's spinning. Beautiful stuff. And it emits E= MC² energy. So stuff. And it emits E= MC² energy. So stuff. And it emits E= MC² energy. So the mass of the final black hole will be the mass of the final black hole will be the mass of the final black hole will be less than the sum of the two starter less than the sum of the two starter less than the sum of the two starter black holes. And that energy is radiated black holes. And that energy is radiated black holes. And that energy is radiated away in this ringing of spaceime. It's away in this ringing of spaceime. It's away in this ringing of spaceime. It's really important to emphasize that it's really important to emphasize that it's really important to emphasize that it's not light. None of this has to do not light. None of this has to do not light. None of this has to do literally with light that we can detect literally with light that we can detect literally with light that we can detect with normal things that detect light.

with normal things that detect light. with normal things that detect light. X-rays form of light. Gamma rays are a X-rays form of light. Gamma rays are a X-rays form of light. Gamma rays are a form of light. Infrared, optical, all form of light. Infrared, optical, all form of light. Infrared, optical, all this whole electromagnetic spectrum. this whole electromagnetic spectrum. this whole electromagnetic spectrum. None of it is emitted as light. It's None of it is emitted as light. It's None of it is emitted as light. It's completely dark. It's only emitted in completely dark. It's only emitted in completely dark. It's only emitted in the rippling of the shape of space. A the rippling of the shape of space. A the rippling of the shape of space. A lot of times it's likened closer to lot of times it's likened closer to lot of times it's likened closer to sound. Technically, we've kind of sound. Technically, we've kind of sound. Technically, we've kind of argued. I mean, I haven't done an argued. I mean, I haven't done an argued. I mean, I haven't done an anatomical calculation, but if you're anatomical calculation, but if you're anatomical calculation, but if you're near enough to two colliding black near enough to two colliding black near enough to two colliding black holes, they actually ring spaceime in holes, they actually ring spaceime in holes, they actually ring spaceime in the human auditory range. The frequency the human auditory range. The frequency the human auditory range. The frequency is actually in the human auditory range is actually in the human auditory range is actually in the human auditory range that the shape of space could squeeze that the shape of space could squeeze that the shape of space could squeeze and stretch your eardrum even in vacuum. and stretch your eardrum even in vacuum. and stretch your eardrum even in vacuum. And you could hear literally hear these And you could hear literally hear these And you could hear literally hear these waves ringing. waves ringing. waves ringing. The following is a conversation with The following is a conversation with The following is a conversation with Jenna Levan, a theoretical physicist and Jenna Levan, a theoretical physicist and Jenna Levan, a theoretical physicist and cosmologist specializing in black holes, cosmologist specializing in black holes, cosmologist specializing in black holes, cosmology of extra dimensions, topology cosmology of extra dimensions, topology cosmology of extra dimensions, topology of the universe, and gravitational waves of the universe, and gravitational waves of the universe, and gravitational waves in spaceime. She has also written some in spaceime. She has also written some in spaceime. She has also written some incredible books including how the incredible books including how the incredible books including how the universe got its spots on the topic of universe got its spots on the topic of universe got its spots on the topic of the shape and the size of the universe, the shape and the size of the universe, the shape and the size of the universe, a mad man dreams of touring machines on a mad man dreams of touring machines on a mad man dreams of touring machines on the topic of genius madness and the the topic of genius madness and the the topic of genius madness and the limits of knowledge. Black hole blues limits of knowledge. Black hole blues limits of knowledge. Black hole blues and other songs from outer space on the and other songs from outer space on the and other songs from outer space on the topic of LIGO and the detection of topic of LIGO and the detection of topic of LIGO and the detection of gravitational waves and black hole gravitational waves and black hole gravitational waves and black hole survival guide all about black holes.

survival guide all about black holes. survival guide all about black holes. This was a fun and fascinating This was a fun and fascinating This was a fun and fascinating conversation. This is a Lexman podcast. conversation. This is a Lexman podcast. conversation. This is a Lexman podcast. To support it, please check out our To support it, please check out our To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, sponsors in the description. And now, sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Jenna 11. I should dear friends, here's Jenna 11. I should dear friends, here's Jenna 11. I should say that you sent me a message about not say that you sent me a message about not say that you sent me a message about not starting early in the morning, and that starting early in the morning, and that starting early in the morning, and that made me feel like we're kindred spirits. made me feel like we're kindred spirits. made me feel like we're kindred spirits. You wrote to me, "When the great You wrote to me, "When the great You wrote to me, "When the great physicist Sydney Coleman was asked to physicist Sydney Coleman was asked to physicist Sydney Coleman was asked to attend a 9:00 a.m. meeting, his reply attend a 9:00 a.m. meeting, his reply attend a 9:00 a.m. meeting, his reply was, "I can't stay up that late." Yeah. was, "I can't stay up that late." Yeah. was, "I can't stay up that late." Yeah. So, classic. Sydney was beloved. I think So, classic. Sydney was beloved. I think So, classic. Sydney was beloved. I think all the best thoughts, honestly, maybe all the best thoughts, honestly, maybe all the best thoughts, honestly, maybe the worst thoughts, too, are all come at the worst thoughts, too, are all come at the worst thoughts, too, are all come at night. There's something There's night. There's something There's night. There's something There's something about the night. Maybe it's something about the night. Maybe it's something about the night. Maybe it's the silence. Maybe it's the peace all the silence. Maybe it's the peace all the silence. Maybe it's the peace all around. Maybe it's the darkness and you around. Maybe it's the darkness and you around. Maybe it's the darkness and you just just just you could be with yourself and you could you could be with yourself and you could you could be with yourself and you could think deeply. I feel like there's stolen think deeply. I feel like there's stolen think deeply. I feel like there's stolen hours in the middle of the night because hours in the middle of the night because hours in the middle of the night because it's not busy. Your gadgets aren't it's not busy. Your gadgets aren't it's not busy. Your gadgets aren't pinging. There's really no pressure to pinging. There's really no pressure to pinging. There's really no pressure to do anything but I'm off and awake in the do anything but I'm off and awake in the do anything but I'm off and awake in the middle of the night and so it's sort of middle of the night and so it's sort of middle of the night and so it's sort of like these extra hours of the day. I like these extra hours of the day. I like these extra hours of the day. I think we were exchanging messages at 4 think we were exchanging messages at 4 think we were exchanging messages at 4 in the morning. Okay. So in that way, in the morning. Okay. So in that way, in the morning. Okay. So in that way, many other ways were kindred spirits. M.

many other ways were kindred spirits. M. many other ways were kindred spirits. M. So, let's go in the one of the coolest So, let's go in the one of the coolest So, let's go in the one of the coolest objects in the universe, black holes. objects in the universe, black holes. objects in the universe, black holes. What are they? And maybe even a good way What are they? And maybe even a good way What are they? And maybe even a good way to start is to talk about how are they to start is to talk about how are they to start is to talk about how are they formed? formed? formed? Yeah. In a way, people often confuse how Yeah. In a way, people often confuse how Yeah. In a way, people often confuse how they're formed with the concept of the they're formed with the concept of the they're formed with the concept of the black hole in the first place. So when black hole in the first place. So when black hole in the first place. So when black holes were first proposed, black holes were first proposed, black holes were first proposed, Einstein was very surprised that such a Einstein was very surprised that such a Einstein was very surprised that such a solution could be found so quickly but solution could be found so quickly but solution could be found so quickly but really thought nature would protect us really thought nature would protect us really thought nature would protect us from their formation. And then nature from their formation. And then nature from their formation. And then nature thinks of a way nature thinks of a way thinks of a way nature thinks of a way thinks of a way nature thinks of a way to make these crazy objects which is to to make these crazy objects which is to to make these crazy objects which is to kill off a few stars. But then I think kill off a few stars. But then I think kill off a few stars. But then I think that there's a confusion that dead that there's a confusion that dead that there's a confusion that dead stars, these very very massive stars stars, these very very massive stars stars, these very very massive stars that die are synonymous with the that die are synonymous with the that die are synonymous with the phenomenon of black hole. And it's phenomenon of black hole. And it's phenomenon of black hole. And it's really not the case. Black holes are really not the case. Black holes are really not the case. Black holes are more general and more fundamental than more general and more fundamental than more general and more fundamental than just the death state of a star. But even just the death state of a star. But even just the death state of a star. But even the history of how people realize that the history of how people realize that the history of how people realize that stars could form black holes is is is stars could form black holes is is is stars could form black holes is is is quite fascinating because the entire quite fascinating because the entire quite fascinating because the entire idea really just started as a thought idea really just started as a thought idea really just started as a thought experiment. And if you think of it's experiment. And if you think of it's experiment. And if you think of it's 1915 1916 when Einstein fully describes 1915 1916 when Einstein fully describes 1915 1916 when Einstein fully describes relativity in a way that's the canonical relativity in a way that's the canonical relativity in a way that's the canonical formulation. It was a lot of changing formulation. It was a lot of changing formulation. It was a lot of changing back and forth before then. And it's back and forth before then. And it's back and forth before then. And it's World War I and he gets a message from World War I and he gets a message from World War I and he gets a message from the Eastern Front from a friend of his, the Eastern Front from a friend of his, the Eastern Front from a friend of his, Carl Shortfield, who's who solved Carl Shortfield, who's who solved Carl Shortfield, who's who solved Einstein's equations, you know, between Einstein's equations, you know, between Einstein's equations, you know, between sitting in the trenches and like cannon sitting in the trenches and like cannon sitting in the trenches and like cannon fire. Um, it was joked that he was

fire. Um, it was joked that he was fire. Um, it was joked that he was calculating ballistic trajectories. He's calculating ballistic trajectories. He's calculating ballistic trajectories. He's also perusing the proceedings of the also perusing the proceedings of the also perusing the proceedings of the Prussian Academy of Sciences as you do. Prussian Academy of Sciences as you do. Prussian Academy of Sciences as you do. and he was an astronomer um who had and he was an astronomer um who had and he was an astronomer um who had enlisted in his 40s and he finds this enlisted in his 40s and he finds this enlisted in his 40s and he finds this really remarkable solution to Einstein's really remarkable solution to Einstein's really remarkable solution to Einstein's equations and it's the first exact equations and it's the first exact equations and it's the first exact solution. He doesn't call it a black solution. He doesn't call it a black solution. He doesn't call it a black hole. It's not called a black hole for hole. It's not called a black hole for hole. It's not called a black hole for decades. But what I love about what decades. But what I love about what decades. But what I love about what Schwarz shield did is it's a thought Schwarz shield did is it's a thought Schwarz shield did is it's a thought experiment. It's not about observations. experiment. It's not about observations. experiment. It's not about observations. It's not about making these things in It's not about making these things in It's not about making these things in nature. Um it's really just about the nature. Um it's really just about the nature. Um it's really just about the idea. He sets up this completely idea. He sets up this completely idea. He sets up this completely untenable situation. and he says, untenable situation. and he says, untenable situation. and he says, "Imagine I crush all the mass of a star "Imagine I crush all the mass of a star "Imagine I crush all the mass of a star to a point." Don't ask how that's done to a point." Don't ask how that's done to a point." Don't ask how that's done because that's really absurd. Um, but because that's really absurd. Um, but because that's really absurd. Um, but let's just pretend and let's just let's just pretend and let's just let's just pretend and let's just imagine that that that's a scenario. And imagine that that that's a scenario. And imagine that that that's a scenario. And then he wants to decide what happens to then he wants to decide what happens to then he wants to decide what happens to spacetime if I set up this confounding spacetime if I set up this confounding spacetime if I set up this confounding but somehow very simple scenario. And but somehow very simple scenario. And but somehow very simple scenario. And really what Einstein's equations were really what Einstein's equations were really what Einstein's equations were were telling everybody at the time was were telling everybody at the time was were telling everybody at the time was that matter and energy curve space and that matter and energy curve space and that matter and energy curve space and time and then curved spacetime tells time and then curved spacetime tells time and then curved spacetime tells matter and energy how to fall once the matter and energy how to fall once the matter and energy how to fall once the spacetime shaped. So he finds this spacetime shaped. So he finds this spacetime shaped. So he finds this beautiful solution and the most amazing beautiful solution and the most amazing beautiful solution and the most amazing thing about a solution is he finds this thing about a solution is he finds this thing about a solution is he finds this demarcation which is the event horizon demarcation which is the event horizon demarcation which is the event horizon which is the region beyond which not which is the region beyond which not which is the region beyond which not even light can escape. And if you were even light can escape. And if you were even light can escape. And if you were to ask me today all these decass crushed to a point. The black

decass crushed to a point. The black hole is the event horizon. The event hole is the event horizon. The event hole is the event horizon. The event horizon is really just a point in horizon is really just a point in horizon is really just a point in spaceime or or a region in spaceime. spaceime or or a region in spaceime. spaceime or or a region in spaceime. It's actually in this case a surface in It's actually in this case a surface in It's actually in this case a surface in spaceime. And it marks uh a separation spaceime. And it marks uh a separation spaceime. And it marks uh a separation in events which is why it's called an in events which is why it's called an in events which is why it's called an event horizon. Everything outside is event horizon. Everything outside is event horizon. Everything outside is causally separated from the inside in so causally separated from the inside in so causally separated from the inside in so far as what's inside the event horizon far as what's inside the event horizon far as what's inside the event horizon can't affect events outside. What's can't affect events outside. What's can't affect events outside. What's outside can affect events inside. I can outside can affect events inside. I can outside can affect events inside. I can throw a probe into a black hole and throw a probe into a black hole and throw a probe into a black hole and cause something to happen on the inside. cause something to happen on the inside. cause something to happen on the inside. But the opposite isn't true. Somebody But the opposite isn't true. Somebody But the opposite isn't true. Somebody who fell in can't send a probe out. And who fell in can't send a probe out. And who fell in can't send a probe out. And this oneway aspect really is what's this oneway aspect really is what's this oneway aspect really is what's profound about the black hole. profound about the black hole. profound about the black hole. Um, sometimes we talk about the black Um, sometimes we talk about the black Um, sometimes we talk about the black holes being nothing because at the event holes being nothing because at the event holes being nothing because at the event horizon there's really nothing there. horizon there's really nothing there. horizon there's really nothing there. Uh, sometimes when we when we think Uh, sometimes when we when we think Uh, sometimes when we when we think about black holes, we want to imagine a about black holes, we want to imagine a about black holes, we want to imagine a really dense dead star. But if you go up really dense dead star. But if you go up really dense dead star. But if you go up to the event horizon, it's an empty to the event horizon, it's an empty to the event horizon, it's an empty region of spaceime. It's it's more of a region of spaceime. It's it's more of a region of spaceime. It's it's more of a place than it is a thing. And Einstein place than it is a thing. And Einstein place than it is a thing. And Einstein found this fascinating. He helped get found this fascinating. He helped get found this fascinating. He helped get the work published, but he really didn't the work published, but he really didn't the work published, but he really didn't think these would form in nature. I think these would form in nature. I think these would form in nature. I doubt Carl Schwarz shield did either. Um doubt Carl Schwarz shield did either. Um doubt Carl Schwarz shield did either. Um I think they thought they were uh I think they thought they were uh I think they thought they were uh solving theoretical mathematical solving theoretical mathematical solving theoretical mathematical problems. Um but not describing this problems. Um but not describing this problems. Um but not describing this what turned out to be the end state of what turned out to be the end state of what turned out to be the end state of gravitational collapse. And maybe the gravitational collapse. And maybe the gravitational collapse. And maybe the purpose of the thought experiment was to purpose of the thought experiment was to purpose of the thought experiment was to find the limitations of the theory. So

find the limitations of the theory. So find the limitations of the theory. So you you find the most extreme versions you you find the most extreme versions you you find the most extreme versions in order to understand where it breaks in order to understand where it breaks in order to understand where it breaks down. Yeah. And it just so happens in down. Yeah. And it just so happens in down. Yeah. And it just so happens in this case that might actually predict this case that might actually predict this case that might actually predict these extreme kinds of objects. It does these extreme kinds of objects. It does these extreme kinds of objects. It does both. So it also describes the sun from both. So it also describes the sun from both. So it also describes the sun from far away. So the same solution does a far away. So the same solution does a far away. So the same solution does a great job helping us understand the great job helping us understand the great job helping us understand the Earth's orbit around the sun. It's Earth's orbit around the sun. It's Earth's orbit around the sun. It's incredible. Does a great job. It's incredible. Does a great job. It's incredible. Does a great job. It's almost overkill. You don't really need almost overkill. You don't really need almost overkill. You don't really need to be that precise as relativity. Um, to be that precise as relativity. Um, to be that precise as relativity. Um, and yes, it predicts the phenomenon of and yes, it predicts the phenomenon of and yes, it predicts the phenomenon of black holes, but doesn't really explain black holes, but doesn't really explain black holes, but doesn't really explain how nature would form them. But then it how nature would form them. But then it how nature would form them. But then it also on top of that does signal the also on top of that does signal the also on top of that does signal the breakdown of the theory. I mean, you're breakdown of the theory. I mean, you're breakdown of the theory. I mean, you're quite right about that. It actually quite right about that. It actually quite right about that. It actually says, "Oh, man." But you you go all the says, "Oh, man." But you you go all the says, "Oh, man." But you you go all the way towards the center and yeah, this way towards the center and yeah, this way towards the center and yeah, this doesn't sound right anymore. Um, doesn't sound right anymore. Um, doesn't sound right anymore. Um, sometimes I liken it to, you know, it's sometimes I liken it to, you know, it's sometimes I liken it to, you know, it's like a dying man marking in the dirt like a dying man marking in the dirt like a dying man marking in the dirt that something's gone wrong here, right? that something's gone wrong here, right? that something's gone wrong here, right? it it it's signaling that that there's it it it's signaling that that there's it it it's signaling that that there's some culprit there's something wrong in some culprit there's something wrong in some culprit there's something wrong in the theory and um and even Roger Penrose the theory and um and even Roger Penrose the theory and um and even Roger Penrose who did this general work trying to who did this general work trying to who did this general work trying to understand understand understand uh the formation of black holes from uh the formation of black holes from uh the formation of black holes from gravitational collapse he thought oh gravitational collapse he thought oh gravitational collapse he thought oh yeah there's a singularity that's yeah there's a singularity that's yeah there's a singularity that's inevitable it's in every there's no way inevitable it's in every there's no way inevitable it's in every there's no way around it once you form a black hole but around it once you form a black hole but around it once you form a black hole but he said this is probably just a he said this is probably just a he said this is probably just a shortcoming of the fact that we've shortcoming of the fact that we've shortcoming of the fact that we've forgotten to include quantum mechanics forgotten to include quantum mechanics forgotten to include quantum mechanics and that when we do we'll understand and that when we do we'll understand and that when we do we'll understand this um differently. So according to him

this um differently. So according to him this um differently. So according to him the closer you get to the singularity the closer you get to the singularity the closer you get to the singularity the more quantum mechanics comes into the more quantum mechanics comes into the more quantum mechanics comes into play and therefore there is no play and therefore there is no play and therefore there is no singularity there's something else. I singularity there's something else. I singularity there's something else. I think everybody would say that. I think think everybody would say that. I think think everybody would say that. I think everybody would say the closer you get everybody would say the closer you get everybody would say the closer you get to the singularity for sure you have to to the singularity for sure you have to to the singularity for sure you have to include quantum mechanics. You just include quantum mechanics. You just include quantum mechanics. You just can't consistently talk about magnifying can't consistently talk about magnifying can't consistently talk about magnifying such small scales, having such enormous such small scales, having such enormous such small scales, having such enormous uh ruptures and and curvatures and uh ruptures and and curvatures and uh ruptures and and curvatures and energy scales and not include quantum energy scales and not include quantum energy scales and not include quantum mechanics that that's just inconsistent mechanics that that's just inconsistent mechanics that that's just inconsistent with the world as we understand it. So with the world as we understand it. So with the world as we understand it. So you've described the brainbreaking idea you've described the brainbreaking idea you've described the brainbreaking idea that a black hole is that a black hole is that a black hole is uh not so much a super dense matter as uh not so much a super dense matter as uh not so much a super dense matter as it's sometimes described, but it's more it's sometimes described, but it's more it's sometimes described, but it's more akin to, you know, a region of space akin to, you know, a region of space akin to, you know, a region of space time, but even more so just nothing. time, but even more so just nothing. time, but even more so just nothing. Yeah, it's nothing. That that's a thing Yeah, it's nothing. That that's a thing Yeah, it's nothing. That that's a thing you seem to like to say. I do I do like you seem to like to say. I do I do like you seem to like to say. I do I do like to say that black holes are no thing. to say that black holes are no thing. to say that black holes are no thing. They're nothing. Okay. So what what what They're nothing. Okay. So what what what They're nothing. Okay. So what what what does that mean? That's that's what I does that mean? That's that's what I does that mean? That's that's what I mean. That's the more profound aspect of mean. That's the more profound aspect of mean. That's the more profound aspect of the black hole. So you asked originally the black hole. So you asked originally the black hole. So you asked originally um how do they form? And I think that um how do they form? And I think that um how do they form? And I think that that that even when you try to form them that that even when you try to form them that that even when you try to form them in messy astrophysical systems, there's in messy astrophysical systems, there's in messy astrophysical systems, there's still nothing at the end of the day left still nothing at the end of the day left still nothing at the end of the day left behind. And um this was a very big behind. And um this was a very big behind. And um this was a very big surprise. Even though Einstein accepted surprise. Even though Einstein accepted surprise. Even though Einstein accepted that this was a true prediction, he that this was a true prediction, he that this was a true prediction, he didn't think that that they'd be made.

didn't think that that they'd be made. didn't think that that they'd be made. And it was quite astounding that that And it was quite astounding that that And it was quite astounding that that people like Oppenheimer actually it's people like Oppenheimer actually it's people like Oppenheimer actually it's probably Oenheimer's most important probably Oenheimer's most important probably Oenheimer's most important theoretical work um who are thinking theoretical work um who are thinking theoretical work um who are thinking about nuclear physics and quantum about nuclear physics and quantum about nuclear physics and quantum mechanics but in the context of these mechanics but in the context of these mechanics but in the context of these kind of utopian questions why do stars kind of utopian questions why do stars kind of utopian questions why do stars shine um why is the sun radiant and hot shine um why is the sun radiant and hot shine um why is the sun radiant and hot and this amazing source of light and it and this amazing source of light and it and this amazing source of light and it was people like Oenheimer who began to was people like Oenheimer who began to was people like Oenheimer who began to ask the question well could stars ask the question well could stars ask the question well could stars collapse to form black holes Could they collapse to form black holes Could they collapse to form black holes Could they become so dense that uh eventually not become so dense that uh eventually not become so dense that uh eventually not even light would escape? And that's why even light would escape? And that's why even light would escape? And that's why I think people think that black holes I think people think that black holes I think people think that black holes are these dense objects. That's often are these dense objects. That's often are these dense objects. That's often how it's described. But actually what how it's described. But actually what how it's described. But actually what happens these very massive stars, happens these very massive stars, happens these very massive stars, they're burning thermonuclear fuel. You they're burning thermonuclear fuel. You they're burning thermonuclear fuel. You know, they're earthfuls of thermonuclear know, they're earthfuls of thermonuclear know, they're earthfuls of thermonuclear fuel. They're burning um and emitting fuel. They're burning um and emitting fuel. They're burning um and emitting energy in E= MC² energy. So it's fusing. energy in E= MC² energy. So it's fusing. energy in E= MC² energy. So it's fusing. It's a fusion bomb. It's a constantly It's a fusion bomb. It's a constantly It's a fusion bomb. It's a constantly going thermonuclear bomb. And um going thermonuclear bomb. And um going thermonuclear bomb. And um eventually it's going to run out of eventually it's going to run out of eventually it's going to run out of fuel. It's going to run out of hydrogen, fuel. It's going to run out of hydrogen, fuel. It's going to run out of hydrogen, helium, stuff to fuse. It hits an iron helium, stuff to fuse. It hits an iron helium, stuff to fuse. It hits an iron core. Iron to go past iron with fusion core. Iron to go past iron with fusion core. Iron to go past iron with fusion is actually energetically expensive. So is actually energetically expensive. So is actually energetically expensive. So it's no longer going to do that so it's no longer going to do that so it's no longer going to do that so easily. So suddenly it's run out of easily. So suddenly it's run out of easily. So suddenly it's run out of fuel. And if the star is very very very fuel. And if the star is very very very fuel. And if the star is very very very massive, much more massive than our sun, massive, much more massive than our sun, massive, much more massive than our sun, maybe 20, 30 times the mass of our sun, maybe 20, 30 times the mass of our sun, maybe 20, 30 times the mass of our sun, it'll collapse under its own weight. And it'll collapse under its own weight. And it'll collapse under its own weight. And that collapse is incredibly fast and that collapse is incredibly fast and that collapse is incredibly fast and dramatic and it creates a shock wave. So

dramatic and it creates a shock wave. So dramatic and it creates a shock wave. So that's the supernova explosion. So a lot that's the supernova explosion. So a lot that's the supernova explosion. So a lot of these they rebound because once they of these they rebound because once they of these they rebound because once they crunch they've reached a new critical uh crunch they've reached a new critical uh crunch they've reached a new critical uh capacity where they can reignite to capacity where they can reignite to capacity where they can reignite to higher elements, heavier elements and higher elements, heavier elements and higher elements, heavier elements and that sets off a bomb essentially. So, that sets off a bomb essentially. So, that sets off a bomb essentially. So, the star explodes helpfully because the star explodes helpfully because the star explodes helpfully because that's why you and I are here because that's why you and I are here because that's why you and I are here because stars send their material back out into stars send their material back out into stars send their material back out into space and you and I get to be made of space and you and I get to be made of space and you and I get to be made of carbon and oxygen and all this good carbon and oxygen and all this good carbon and oxygen and all this good stuff. We're not just stuff. We're not just stuff. We're not just hydrogen. So, the suns do that for us. hydrogen. So, the suns do that for us. hydrogen. So, the suns do that for us. And then what's left sometimes ends at a And then what's left sometimes ends at a And then what's left sometimes ends at a neutron star, which is a very cool neutron star, which is a very cool neutron star, which is a very cool object, very fascinating object, super object, very fascinating object, super object, very fascinating object, super dense, uh, but bigger than a black hole, dense, uh, but bigger than a black hole, dense, uh, but bigger than a black hole, meaning it's it's it's not compact meaning it's it's it's not compact meaning it's it's it's not compact enough to become a black hole. It's an enough to become a black hole. It's an enough to become a black hole. It's an actual thing. A neutron star is a real actual thing. A neutron star is a real actual thing. A neutron star is a real thing. It's like a giant neutron. thing. It's like a giant neutron. thing. It's like a giant neutron. Literally, electrons get jammed into the Literally, electrons get jammed into the Literally, electrons get jammed into the protons and make this giant nucleus and protons and make this giant nucleus and protons and make this giant nucleus and this superconducting matter. Very this superconducting matter. Very this superconducting matter. Very strange, amazing objects. But if it's strange, amazing objects. But if it's strange, amazing objects. But if it's heavier than that the core and that's heavier than that the core and that's heavier than that the core and that's you know heavier than twice the mass of you know heavier than twice the mass of you know heavier than twice the mass of the sun um it will become a black hole the sun um it will become a black hole the sun um it will become a black hole and Oenheimer was wrote this beautiful and Oenheimer was wrote this beautiful and Oenheimer was wrote this beautiful paper in paper in paper in 1939 with his student uh saying that 1939 with his student uh saying that 1939 with his student uh saying that they believed that the end state of they believed that the end state of they believed that the end state of gravitational collapse is actually a gravitational collapse is actually a gravitational collapse is actually a black hole. This is stunning and really black hole. This is stunning and really black hole. This is stunning and really um a visionary conclusion. Now, the um a visionary conclusion. Now, the um a visionary conclusion. Now, the paper is published the same day the paper is published the same day the paper is published the same day the Nazis advance on Poland and so it does

Nazis advance on Poland and so it does Nazis advance on Poland and so it does not get a lot of fanfare in the not get a lot of fanfare in the not get a lot of fanfare in the newspapers. Yeah, we think there's a lot newspapers. Yeah, we think there's a lot newspapers. Yeah, we think there's a lot of drama today on social media. Imagine of drama today on social media. Imagine of drama today on social media. Imagine that. Like here's a guy who predicts how that. Like here's a guy who predicts how that. Like here's a guy who predicts how actually in nature would be the actually in nature would be the actually in nature would be the formation of this most radical of object formation of this most radical of object formation of this most radical of object that broke even Einstein's brain while that broke even Einstein's brain while that broke even Einstein's brain while one of the most evil if not the most one of the most evil if not the most one of the most evil if not the most evil humans in history starting a uh the evil humans in history starting a uh the evil humans in history starting a uh the first steps of a global war. What I also first steps of a global war. What I also first steps of a global war. What I also love about that lesson is how agnostic love about that lesson is how agnostic love about that lesson is how agnostic science is because he was asking these science is because he was asking these science is because he was asking these utopian questions as were other people utopian questions as were other people utopian questions as were other people of the time about the nuclear physics of the time about the nuclear physics of the time about the nuclear physics and stars. You might know this play and stars. You might know this play and stars. You might know this play Copenhagen by Michael Fra. There's this Copenhagen by Michael Fra. There's this Copenhagen by Michael Fra. There's this line that he attributes to Boore and line that he attributes to Boore and line that he attributes to Boore and Boore was the great thinker of early Boore was the great thinker of early Boore was the great thinker of early foundations of quantum mechanics, Danish foundations of quantum mechanics, Danish foundations of quantum mechanics, Danish physicist, where Boore says to his wife, physicist, where Boore says to his wife, physicist, where Boore says to his wife, "Nobody's thought of a way to kill "Nobody's thought of a way to kill "Nobody's thought of a way to kill people using quantum mechanics." Now, of people using quantum mechanics." Now, of people using quantum mechanics." Now, of course, then there's the nuclear bomb. course, then there's the nuclear bomb. course, then there's the nuclear bomb. And what I love about this was the And what I love about this was the And what I love about this was the pressure scientists were under to do pressure scientists were under to do pressure scientists were under to do something with this nuclear physics and something with this nuclear physics and something with this nuclear physics and and to enter this race over um a nuclear and to enter this race over um a nuclear and to enter this race over um a nuclear weapon. But really at the same time, weapon. But really at the same time, weapon. But really at the same time, 1939 really uh Oenheimer's thinking 1939 really uh Oenheimer's thinking 1939 really uh Oenheimer's thinking about black holes. There's a there's about black holes. There's a there's about black holes. There's a there's even a small line in Chris Nolan's film.

even a small line in Chris Nolan's film. even a small line in Chris Nolan's film. It's very hard to catch. There's a It's very hard to catch. There's a It's very hard to catch. There's a reference to it in the film where he reference to it in the film where he reference to it in the film where he they're sort of joking well I guess they're sort of joking well I guess they're sort of joking well I guess nobody's going to pay attention to your nobody's going to pay attention to your nobody's going to pay attention to your paper now you know because uh because of paper now you know because uh because of paper now you know because uh because of the Nazi advance on Poland that's the the Nazi advance on Poland that's the the Nazi advance on Poland that's the other remarkable thing about Oppenheimer other remarkable thing about Oppenheimer other remarkable thing about Oppenheimer is he's also a central figure in the is he's also a central figure in the is he's also a central figure in the construction of the bomb right so it's construction of the bomb right so it's construction of the bomb right so it's theory and experiment clashing together theory and experiment clashing together theory and experiment clashing together with the geopolitics exactly so of with the geopolitics exactly so of with the geopolitics exactly so of course Oppenheimer now known as the course Oppenheimer now known as the course Oppenheimer now known as the father of the atomic bomb um he talks father of the atomic bomb um he talks father of the atomic bomb um he talks about destroyers of worlds um But it's about destroyers of worlds um But it's about destroyers of worlds um But it's the same technology and that's what I the same technology and that's what I the same technology and that's what I mean by science is agnostic, right? It's mean by science is agnostic, right? It's mean by science is agnostic, right? It's the same technology overcoming a the same technology overcoming a the same technology overcoming a critical mass um igniting thermonuclear critical mass um igniting thermonuclear critical mass um igniting thermonuclear fusion. Eventually there was a fision fusion. Eventually there was a fision fusion. Eventually there was a fision the original bomb was a fision bomb and the original bomb was a fision bomb and the original bomb was a fision bomb and fision was first shown by Le Mitner who fision was first shown by Le Mitner who fision was first shown by Le Mitner who showed that a certain uranium when you showed that a certain uranium when you showed that a certain uranium when you bombarded it with protons broke into bombarded it with protons broke into bombarded it with protons broke into smaller pieces that were less than the smaller pieces that were less than the smaller pieces that were less than the uranium. Right? So some of that mass uranium. Right? So some of that mass uranium. Right? So some of that mass that E= MC² energy had escaped and it that E= MC² energy had escaped and it that E= MC² energy had escaped and it was the first kind of concrete was the first kind of concrete was the first kind of concrete demonstration of this Einstein's most demonstration of this Einstein's most demonstration of this Einstein's most famous equation. So all of this comes famous equation. So all of this comes famous equation. So all of this comes together but the story of um they still together but the story of um they still together but the story of um they still weren't called black holes. This is weren't called black holes. This is weren't called black holes. This is 1939 and they had these very long-winded 1939 and they had these very long-winded 1939 and they had these very long-winded ways of describing the end state the ways of describing the end state the ways of describing the end state the catastrophic end state of gravitational catastrophic end state of gravitational catastrophic end state of gravitational collapse. But what you have to imagine collapse. But what you have to imagine collapse. But what you have to imagine is as this star collapses. So now, so is as this star collapses. So now, so is as this star collapses. So now, so what's the sun? The sun's a million and what's the sun? The sun's a million and what's the sun? The sun's a million and a half kilometers across. So imagine a a half kilometers across. So imagine a a half kilometers across. So imagine a star much bigger than the sun. Much

star much bigger than the sun. Much star much bigger than the sun. Much bigger radius. And it's so heavy it bigger radius. And it's so heavy it bigger radius. And it's so heavy it collapses. It supernovas. What's left is collapses. It supernovas. What's left is collapses. It supernovas. What's left is still maybe 10 times the mass of the still maybe 10 times the mass of the still maybe 10 times the mass of the sun. Just what's left in that core. And sun. Just what's left in that core. And sun. Just what's left in that core. And it continues to collapse. And when that it continues to collapse. And when that it continues to collapse. And when that reaches about 60 kilometers across, like reaches about 60 kilometers across, like reaches about 60 kilometers across, like just imagine 10 times the mass of the just imagine 10 times the mass of the just imagine 10 times the mass of the sun citys sized. That is a really dense sun citys sized. That is a really dense sun citys sized. That is a really dense object. And now the black hole object. And now the black hole object. And now the black hole essentially has begun to form. Meaning essentially has begun to form. Meaning essentially has begun to form. Meaning the curve in spaceime is so tremendous the curve in spaceime is so tremendous the curve in spaceime is so tremendous that not even light can escape. The that not even light can escape. The that not even light can escape. The event horizon forms. But the event event horizon forms. But the event event horizon forms. But the event horizon is almost imprinted on the horizon is almost imprinted on the horizon is almost imprinted on the spacetime because the star can't sit spacetime because the star can't sit spacetime because the star can't sit there in that dense state any more than there in that dense state any more than there in that dense state any more than it can race outward at the speed of it can race outward at the speed of it can race outward at the speed of light because even light is forced to light because even light is forced to light because even light is forced to rain inwards. So the star continues to rain inwards. So the star continues to rain inwards. So the star continues to fall and that's the magic part. The star fall and that's the magic part. The star fall and that's the magic part. The star leaves the event horizon behind and it leaves the event horizon behind and it leaves the event horizon behind and it continues to fall and it falls into the continues to fall and it falls into the continues to fall and it falls into the interior of the black hole. Where it interior of the black hole. Where it interior of the black hole. Where it goes, nobody really knows. But it's gone goes, nobody really knows. But it's gone goes, nobody really knows. But it's gone from sight. It goes from sight. It goes from sight. It goes dark. There's this quote by John Wheeler dark. There's this quote by John Wheeler dark. There's this quote by John Wheeler who's like granddaddy of American who's like granddaddy of American who's like granddaddy of American relativity and he has a line that's relativity and he has a line that's relativity and he has a line that's something to the effect. Um, the star something to the effect. Um, the star something to the effect. Um, the star like the Cheshire cat fades from view.

like the Cheshire cat fades from view. like the Cheshire cat fades from view. One leaves behind only its grin, the One leaves behind only its grin, the One leaves behind only its grin, the other only its gravitational attraction. other only its gravitational attraction. other only its gravitational attraction. And he was giving a lecture. It's And he was giving a lecture. It's And he was giving a lecture. It's actually above Tom's restaurant, you actually above Tom's restaurant, you actually above Tom's restaurant, you know, from Seinfeld near Colombia in New know, from Seinfeld near Colombia in New know, from Seinfeld near Colombia in New York. Nice. There was a a place or there York. Nice. There was a a place or there York. Nice. There was a a place or there still is a place there where people were still is a place there where people were still is a place there where people were giving lectures about astrophysics. And giving lectures about astrophysics. And giving lectures about astrophysics. And it's 1967. it's 1967. it's 1967. Wheeler is exhaustively saying this Wheeler is exhaustively saying this Wheeler is exhaustively saying this loaded term, the end state of loaded term, the end state of loaded term, the end state of catastrophic gravitational collapse. And catastrophic gravitational collapse. And catastrophic gravitational collapse. And rumor is that someone shouts from the rumor is that someone shouts from the rumor is that someone shouts from the back row, well, how about black hole? back row, well, how about black hole? back row, well, how about black hole? And um apparently he then foists this And um apparently he then foists this And um apparently he then foists this term on the world. Wheelerhead way of term on the world. Wheelerhead way of term on the world. Wheelerhead way of doing that. Well, I love terms like doing that. Well, I love terms like doing that. Well, I love terms like that. Big bang, black hole. There's some that. Big bang, black hole. There's some that. Big bang, black hole. There's some I mean, it's just pointing out the I mean, it's just pointing out the I mean, it's just pointing out the elephant in the room and calling it an elephant in the room and calling it an elephant in the room and calling it an elephant. It is a black hole. That's a elephant. It is a black hole. That's a elephant. It is a black hole. That's a pretty uh accurate and deep description. pretty uh accurate and deep description. pretty uh accurate and deep description. I just wanted to point out that the just I just wanted to point out that the just I just wanted to point out that the just looking for the first time at a 1939 looking for the first time at a 1939 looking for the first time at a 1939 paper from Oppenheimer. It's like two paper from Oppenheimer. It's like two paper from Oppenheimer. It's like two page. It's like three pages. Oh yeah, page. It's like three pages. Oh yeah, page. It's like three pages. Oh yeah, it's gorgeous. The simplicity of some of it's gorgeous. The simplicity of some of it's gorgeous. The simplicity of some of these that's so gangster. Just these that's so gangster. Just these that's so gangster. Just revolutionize all of physics with this revolutionize all of physics with this revolutionize all of physics with this with you know Einstein did that multiple with you know Einstein did that multiple with you know Einstein did that multiple times in a single year. Mhm. When all times in a single year. Mhm. When all times in a single year. Mhm. When all thermonuclear sources of energy are thermonuclear sources of energy are thermonuclear sources of energy are exhausted, a sufficiently heavy star exhausted, a sufficiently heavy star exhausted, a sufficiently heavy star will collapse. That's an opener. Mhm.

will collapse. That's an opener. Mhm. will collapse. That's an opener. Mhm. Unless fision due to rotation, the Unless fision due to rotation, the Unless fision due to rotation, the radiation of mass or the blowing off of radiation of mass or the blowing off of radiation of mass or the blowing off of mass by radiation reduce the stars mass mass by radiation reduce the stars mass mass by radiation reduce the stars mass to orders of that of the sun, this to orders of that of the sun, this to orders of that of the sun, this contraction will continue indefinitely. contraction will continue indefinitely. contraction will continue indefinitely. And it goes on that way. Yeah. Now, I And it goes on that way. Yeah. Now, I And it goes on that way. Yeah. Now, I have to say that Wheeler, who actually have to say that Wheeler, who actually have to say that Wheeler, who actually coins the term black hole, uh gives coins the term black hole, uh gives coins the term black hole, uh gives Oenheimer quite a terrible time about Oenheimer quite a terrible time about Oenheimer quite a terrible time about this. He thinks he's wrong. and they this. He thinks he's wrong. and they this. He thinks he's wrong. and they entered what has sometimes been entered what has sometimes been entered what has sometimes been described as kind of a bitter I don't described as kind of a bitter I don't described as kind of a bitter I don't know if you would actually say feud but know if you would actually say feud but know if you would actually say feud but there were bad feelings and um Wheeler there were bad feelings and um Wheeler there were bad feelings and um Wheeler actually spent decades uh saying actually spent decades uh saying actually spent decades uh saying Oenheimer was wrong and eventually with Oenheimer was wrong and eventually with Oenheimer was wrong and eventually with his computer work that early work that his computer work that early work that his computer work that early work that Wheeler was doing with computers when he Wheeler was doing with computers when he Wheeler was doing with computers when he was also trying to understand nuclear was also trying to understand nuclear was also trying to understand nuclear weapons and in peace time world found weapons and in peace time world found weapons and in peace time world found themselves returning again to these themselves returning again to these themselves returning again to these astrophysical questions astrophysical questions astrophysical questions uh decided that actually Oenheimer had uh decided that actually Oenheimer had uh decided that actually Oenheimer had been right. He thought it was too been right. He thought it was too been right. He thought it was too simplistic, too idealized a setup that simplistic, too idealized a setup that simplistic, too idealized a setup that they had used and that if you you looked they had used and that if you you looked they had used and that if you you looked at something that was more realistic and at something that was more realistic and at something that was more realistic and more complicated that it it just simply more complicated that it it just simply more complicated that it it just simply it just would go away. And in fact, he it just would go away. And in fact, he it just would go away. And in fact, he he draws the opposite conclusion.

he draws the opposite conclusion. he draws the opposite conclusion. There's a story that Oppenheimer was There's a story that Oppenheimer was There's a story that Oppenheimer was sitting outside of the auditorium when sitting outside of the auditorium when sitting outside of the auditorium when Wheeler was coming forth with his Wheeler was coming forth with his Wheeler was coming forth with his declaration that in fact black holes declaration that in fact black holes declaration that in fact black holes were the likely end state of were the likely end state of were the likely end state of gravitational collapse for very very gravitational collapse for very very gravitational collapse for very very heavy stars and um when asked about it heavy stars and um when asked about it heavy stars and um when asked about it Oppenheimer sort of said well I've moved Oppenheimer sort of said well I've moved Oppenheimer sort of said well I've moved on to other things because you've on to other things because you've on to other things because you've written in many places about the human written in many places about the human written in many places about the human beings behind the science I have to ask beings behind the science I have to ask beings behind the science I have to ask you about this about nuclear weapons you about this about nuclear weapons you about this about nuclear weapons where is the greatest of physicists where is the greatest of physicists where is the greatest of physicists coming together to create this most coming together to create this most coming together to create this most terrifying and powerful of a technology. terrifying and powerful of a technology. terrifying and powerful of a technology. And now I get to talk to world leaders And now I get to talk to world leaders And now I get to talk to world leaders for whom this technology is part of the for whom this technology is part of the for whom this technology is part of the tools that is used perhaps implicitly on tools that is used perhaps implicitly on tools that is used perhaps implicitly on the chessboard of geopolitics. What what the chessboard of geopolitics. What what the chessboard of geopolitics. What what can you say as a person who's a can you say as a person who's a can you say as a person who's a physicist and who have studied the physicist and who have studied the physicist and who have studied the physicists and written about the physicists and written about the physicists and written about the physicists the humans behind this about physicists the humans behind this about physicists the humans behind this about this moment in human history when this moment in human history when this moment in human history when physicists came together and created physicists came together and created physicists came together and created this weapon that's powerful enough to this weapon that's powerful enough to this weapon that's powerful enough to destroy all of human civilization. I destroy all of human civilization. I destroy all of human civilization. I think it's an think it's an think it's an excruciating moment in in the history of excruciating moment in in the history of excruciating moment in in the history of science and science and science and um people talk about Heisenberg who um people talk about Heisenberg who um people talk about Heisenberg who stayed in Germany and and uh worked for stayed in Germany and and uh worked for stayed in Germany and and uh worked for the Nazis in their own attempt to build the Nazis in their own attempt to build the Nazis in their own attempt to build the bomb. There was this kind of hopeful the bomb. There was this kind of hopeful the bomb. There was this kind of hopeful talk that maybe Heisenberg had talk that maybe Heisenberg had talk that maybe Heisenberg had intentionally derailed the nuclear intentionally derailed the nuclear intentionally derailed the nuclear weapons program. But I think that's been

weapons program. But I think that's been weapons program. But I think that's been largely discredited that he would have largely discredited that he would have largely discredited that he would have made the bomb could he had he not made made the bomb could he had he not made made the bomb could he had he not made some really kind of simple errors in his some really kind of simple errors in his some really kind of simple errors in his original estimates about how much original estimates about how much original estimates about how much material would be required or how they material would be required or how they material would be required or how they would get over the energy barriers. And would get over the energy barriers. And would get over the energy barriers. And that's a terrifying thought. that's a terrifying thought. that's a terrifying thought. Um, I I don't know that any of us can Um, I I don't know that any of us can Um, I I don't know that any of us can really put ourselves in that position of really put ourselves in that position of really put ourselves in that position of imagining that we're faced with that imagining that we're faced with that imagining that we're faced with that quandry, having to take the initiative quandry, having to take the initiative quandry, having to take the initiative to participate in thinking of a way that to participate in thinking of a way that to participate in thinking of a way that quantum mechanics can kill people and quantum mechanics can kill people and quantum mechanics can kill people and then making the bomb. I think then making the bomb. I think then making the bomb. I think overwhelmingly physicists today feel we overwhelmingly physicists today feel we overwhelmingly physicists today feel we should not continue in the proliferation should not continue in the proliferation should not continue in the proliferation of nuclear weapons. Very few um of nuclear weapons. Very few um of nuclear weapons. Very few um theoretical physicists want to see this theoretical physicists want to see this theoretical physicists want to see this continue. that moment in history, the continue. that moment in history, the continue. that moment in history, the Soviet Union had incredible scientists. Soviet Union had incredible scientists. Soviet Union had incredible scientists. Nazi Germany had incredible scientists Nazi Germany had incredible scientists Nazi Germany had incredible scientists and the United States had incredible and the United States had incredible and the United States had incredible scientists. And it's very easy to scientists. And it's very easy to scientists. And it's very easy to imagine that one of those three would imagine that one of those three would imagine that one of those three would have created the bomb first, not the have created the bomb first, not the have created the bomb first, not the United States. And how different would United States. And how different would United States. And how different would the world be? The game theory of that I the world be? The game theory of that I the world be? The game theory of that I think say the probability is 33% that it think say the probability is 33% that it think say the probability is 33% that it was the United States. If the Soviet was the United States. If the Soviet was the United States. If the Soviet Union had the Union had the Union had the bomb, I think I think they would have bomb, I think I think they would have bomb, I think I think they would have used it in a much more terrifying way in used it in a much more terrifying way in used it in a much more terrifying way in the in the European theater and maybe the in the European theater and maybe the in the European theater and maybe turn on the United States. And obviously turn on the United States. And obviously turn on the United States. And obviously with Hitler, he would have used it. I with Hitler, he would have used it. I with Hitler, he would have used it. I think there's no question he would have think there's no question he would have think there's no question he would have used it to to to kill hundreds of

used it to to to kill hundreds of used it to to to kill hundreds of millions of people. In the game theory millions of people. In the game theory millions of people. In the game theory version, this was the least harmful version, this was the least harmful version, this was the least harmful outcome. Yes. Yes. But there is no outcome. Yes. Yes. But there is no outcome. Yes. Yes. But there is no outcome with no bomb that that any game outcome with no bomb that that any game outcome with no bomb that that any game theorist would uh I think would play. theorist would uh I think would play. theorist would uh I think would play. But I I think if we just remove the But I I think if we just remove the But I I think if we just remove the geopolitics and the ideology and the geopolitics and the ideology and the geopolitics and the ideology and the evil dictators, evil dictators, evil dictators, all of those people are just all of those people are just all of those people are just scientists. I think they don't scientists. I think they don't scientists. I think they don't necessarily even think about the necessarily even think about the necessarily even think about the ideology. And it's a it's a it's a deep ideology. And it's a it's a it's a deep ideology. And it's a it's a it's a deep lesson about the connection between lesson about the connection between lesson about the connection between great science and the annoying sometimes great science and the annoying sometimes great science and the annoying sometimes evil politicians that use that science evil politicians that use that science evil politicians that use that science for means that are either for means that are either for means that are either good or bad. Mhm. And the scientists good or bad. Mhm. And the scientists good or bad. Mhm. And the scientists perhaps don't boy do they even have perhaps don't boy do they even have perhaps don't boy do they even have control of how that science is used. control of how that science is used. control of how that science is used. It's hard. They don't have control. It's hard. They don't have control. It's hard. They don't have control. Right. once it's once it's made, it's no Right. once it's once it's made, it's no Right. once it's once it's made, it's no longer scientific reasoning that longer scientific reasoning that longer scientific reasoning that dictates the use or um it's restraint. dictates the use or um it's restraint. dictates the use or um it's restraint. But I will say that I do believe that it But I will say that I do believe that it But I will say that I do believe that it wasn't a 30 one-third down the line wasn't a 30 one-third down the line wasn't a 30 one-third down the line because America was different and I because America was different and I because America was different and I think that's something we have to think think that's something we have to think think that's something we have to think about right now in this particular about right now in this particular about right now in this particular climate. So many scientists fled here.

climate. So many scientists fled here. climate. So many scientists fled here. They fled to here. They fled to here. They fled to here. Americans weren't fleeing to Nazi Americans weren't fleeing to Nazi Americans weren't fleeing to Nazi Germany. they came here and and they Germany. they came here and and they Germany. they came here and and they were motivated um by uh it's more than a were motivated um by uh it's more than a were motivated um by uh it's more than a patriotism, you know, it was um I mean patriotism, you know, it was um I mean patriotism, you know, it was um I mean it was a patriotism obviously, but it it was a patriotism obviously, but it it was a patriotism obviously, but it was sort of more than that. It was was sort of more than that. It was was sort of more than that. It was really understanding the threat of really understanding the threat of really understanding the threat of Europe, uh what was going on in Europe Europe, uh what was going on in Europe Europe, uh what was going on in Europe and um and what that life, how quickly and um and what that life, how quickly and um and what that life, how quickly it turned, how quickly this freespirited it turned, how quickly this freespirited it turned, how quickly this freespirited Berlin culture, you know, was suddenly Berlin culture, you know, was suddenly Berlin culture, you know, was suddenly in this repressive and terrifying uh in this repressive and terrifying uh in this repressive and terrifying uh regime. So, I think that it was a much regime. So, I think that it was a much regime. So, I think that it was a much higher chance that it happened here in higher chance that it happened here in higher chance that it happened here in America. Yeah. And there's something America. Yeah. And there's something America. Yeah. And there's something about the American system, the you know about the American system, the you know about the American system, the you know it's cliche to say but the freedom all it's cliche to say but the freedom all it's cliche to say but the freedom all the different individual freedoms that the different individual freedoms that the different individual freedoms that enable a very vibrant at its best a very enable a very vibrant at its best a very enable a very vibrant at its best a very vibrant scientific community and that's vibrant scientific community and that's vibrant scientific community and that's really exciting absolutely to scientists really exciting absolutely to scientists really exciting absolutely to scientists and it's very valuable to ma maintain and it's very valuable to ma maintain and it's very valuable to ma maintain that right the the vibrancy of the that right the the vibrancy of the that right the the vibrancy of the debate of the funding those mechanisms debate of the funding those mechanisms debate of the funding those mechanisms absolutely the world flocked here and absolutely the world flocked here and absolutely the world flocked here and that won't be the case if we no longer that won't be the case if we no longer that won't be the case if we no longer have intellectual freedom yeah there's have intellectual freedom yeah there's have intellectual freedom yeah there's there's something interesting to think there's something interesting to think there's something interesting to think about the tension the cold war between about the tension the cold war between about the tension the cold war between China and the United States in the 21st China and the United States in the 21st China and the United States in the 21st century you know some of those same century you know some of those same century you know some of those same questions some of those ideas will rise questions some of those ideas will rise questions some of those ideas will rise up again and we want to make sure that up again and we want to make sure that up again and we want to make sure that um there's a vibrant free exchange of um there's a vibrant free exchange of um there's a vibrant free exchange of scientific ideas I believe most Nobel scientific ideas I believe most Nobel scientific ideas I believe most Nobel prizes come from the United States right

prizes come from the United States right prizes come from the United States right oh yeah I don't have the number but I oh yeah I don't have the number but I oh yeah I don't have the number but I disproportionately so disproportionately disproportionately so disproportionately disproportionately so disproportionately so in fact a lot of them from particle so in fact a lot of them from particle so in fact a lot of them from particle physics came from the Bronx physics came from the Bronx physics came from the Bronx [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] and they were European immigrants. How and they were European immigrants. How and they were European immigrants. How do you explain this? Fled Europe um do you explain this? Fled Europe um do you explain this? Fled Europe um precisely because of the geopolitics precisely because of the geopolitics precisely because of the geopolitics we're describing. Yeah. And so instead we're describing. Yeah. And so instead we're describing. Yeah. And so instead of being Nobel Prize winners from the of being Nobel Prize winners from the of being Nobel Prize winners from the Soviet Union or from the Eastern Block, Soviet Union or from the Eastern Block, Soviet Union or from the Eastern Block, they were from the Bronx. they were from the Bronx. they were from the Bronx. And that's the thing you write about and And that's the thing you write about and And that's the thing you write about and we'll return to time and time again that we'll return to time and time again that we'll return to time and time again that you know science is done by humans. And you know science is done by humans. And you know science is done by humans. And some of those humans are fascinating. some of those humans are fascinating. some of those humans are fascinating. There's tensions. There's battles. There's tensions. There's battles. There's tensions. There's battles. There's some are loners. Some are great There's some are loners. Some are great There's some are loners. Some are great collaborators. Some are tormented, some collaborators. Some are tormented, some collaborators. Some are tormented, some are easygoing, all this kind of stuff. are easygoing, all this kind of stuff. are easygoing, all this kind of stuff. And that's the beautiful thing about it. And that's the beautiful thing about it. And that's the beautiful thing about it. We forget sometimes is it's humans and We forget sometimes is it's humans and We forget sometimes is it's humans and humans are messy and complicated and humans are messy and complicated and humans are messy and complicated and beautiful and all of that. Yeah. Uh so beautiful and all of that. Yeah. Uh so beautiful and all of that. Yeah. Uh so what were we talking about? Oh, the star what were we talking about? Oh, the star what were we talking about? Oh, the star is collapsing. is collapsing. is collapsing. Okay. So can we just return to the Okay. So can we just return to the Okay. So can we just return to the collapse of a star that forms a black collapse of a star that forms a black collapse of a star that forms a black hole? At which point does the super hole? At which point does the super hole? At which point does the super dense thing become nothing? if we can dense thing become nothing? if we can dense thing become nothing? if we can just like linger on this concept. Yeah.

just like linger on this concept. Yeah. just like linger on this concept. Yeah. So if I were falling into a black hole So if I were falling into a black hole So if I were falling into a black hole and I I I tried really fast right as I and I I I tried really fast right as I and I I I tried really fast right as I crossed this empty region but this crossed this empty region but this crossed this empty region but this demarcation I happened to know where it demarcation I happened to know where it demarcation I happened to know where it was. I calculated because there's no was. I calculated because there's no was. I calculated because there's no line there. There's no sign that it's line there. There's no sign that it's line there. There's no sign that it's there. There's no signpost. Um I could there. There's no signpost. Um I could there. There's no signpost. Um I could emit a little light pulse and try to emit a little light pulse and try to emit a little light pulse and try to send it outward exactly at the event send it outward exactly at the event send it outward exactly at the event horizon. So it's racing outward at the horizon. So it's racing outward at the horizon. So it's racing outward at the speed of light. It can hover there speed of light. It can hover there speed of light. It can hover there because from my perspective, it's very because from my perspective, it's very because from my perspective, it's very strange. The spaceime is like a strange. The spaceime is like a strange. The spaceime is like a waterfall raining in and I'm being waterfall raining in and I'm being waterfall raining in and I'm being dragged in with that waterfall. I can't dragged in with that waterfall. I can't dragged in with that waterfall. I can't stop at the event horizon. It comes, it stop at the event horizon. It comes, it stop at the event horizon. It comes, it goes. It's behind me really quickly. goes. It's behind me really quickly. goes. It's behind me really quickly. That light beam can try to sit there That light beam can try to sit there That light beam can try to sit there because it's like it's like a fish because it's like it's like a fish because it's like it's like a fish swimming against the Niagara, you know, swimming against the Niagara, you know, swimming against the Niagara, you know, swimming against the waterfall. It's swimming against the waterfall. It's swimming against the waterfall. It's like stuck there. But it's like stuck like stuck there. But it's like stuck like stuck there. But it's like stuck there. Um, and so that's one way you there. Um, and so that's one way you there. Um, and so that's one way you could have a little signpost. You know, could have a little signpost. You know, could have a little signpost. You know, if you fly by, you think it's moving at if you fly by, you think it's moving at if you fly by, you think it's moving at the speed of light. It flies past you at the speed of light. It flies past you at the speed of light. It flies past you at the speed of light, but it's sitting the speed of light, but it's sitting the speed of light, but it's sitting right there at the event horizon. So, right there at the event horizon. So, right there at the event horizon. So, you're falling back, cross the event you're falling back, cross the event you're falling back, cross the event horizon. Right at that point, you shoot horizon. Right at that point, you shoot horizon. Right at that point, you shoot outwards a photon. Yes. And it's just outwards a photon. Yes. And it's just outwards a photon. Yes. And it's just stuck there. It just gets stuck there.

stuck there. It just gets stuck there. stuck there. It just gets stuck there. Now, it's very unstable. So, the star Now, it's very unstable. So, the star Now, it's very unstable. So, the star can't sit there is the point. It It just can't sit there is the point. It It just can't sit there is the point. It It just can't. So, it rains inward with this can't. So, it rains inward with this can't. So, it rains inward with this waterfall. But from the outside, all we waterfall. But from the outside, all we waterfall. But from the outside, all we should ever really care about is the should ever really care about is the should ever really care about is the event horizon because I can't know what event horizon because I can't know what event horizon because I can't know what happens to it. It could be pure matter happens to it. It could be pure matter happens to it. It could be pure matter and antimatter thrown together which and antimatter thrown together which and antimatter thrown together which annihilates into photons on the inside annihilates into photons on the inside annihilates into photons on the inside and loses all its mass into the energy and loses all its mass into the energy and loses all its mass into the energy of light. Won't matter to me because I of light. Won't matter to me because I of light. Won't matter to me because I can't know anything about what happened can't know anything about what happened can't know anything about what happened on the inside. Okay. Can we just like on the inside. Okay. Can we just like on the inside. Okay. Can we just like linger on this? So what models do we linger on this? So what models do we linger on this? So what models do we have about what happens on the inside of have about what happens on the inside of have about what happens on the inside of the black hole at that moment? So I the black hole at that moment? So I the black hole at that moment? So I guess that one of the intuitions, one of guess that one of the intuitions, one of guess that one of the intuitions, one of the big reminders that you're giving to the big reminders that you're giving to the big reminders that you're giving to us is like, hey, we know very us is like, hey, we know very us is like, hey, we know very little about what can happen on the little about what can happen on the little about what can happen on the inside of a black hole. And that's why inside of a black hole. And that's why inside of a black hole. And that's why we have to be careful about making it's we have to be careful about making it's we have to be careful about making it's better to think about the black hole as better to think about the black hole as better to think about the black hole as an event horizon. But what can we know an event horizon. But what can we know an event horizon. But what can we know and what do we know about the physics of and what do we know about the physics of and what do we know about the physics of of space time inside the black hole? I of space time inside the black hole? I of space time inside the black hole? I don't mind being incautious about don't mind being incautious about don't mind being incautious about thinking about what the math tells us.

thinking about what the math tells us. thinking about what the math tells us. So I'm not such So I'm not such So I'm not such a an observer. I'm very theoretical in a an observer. I'm very theoretical in a an observer. I'm very theoretical in my work. It's really pen on paper a lot. my work. It's really pen on paper a lot. my work. It's really pen on paper a lot. Um these are thought experiments that I Um these are thought experiments that I Um these are thought experiments that I think we we can perform and contemplate. think we we can perform and contemplate. think we we can perform and contemplate. Um whether or not we'll ever know is Um whether or not we'll ever know is Um whether or not we'll ever know is another question. And um so one of the another question. And um so one of the another question. And um so one of the most beautiful things that we suspect most beautiful things that we suspect most beautiful things that we suspect happens on the inside of a black hole is happens on the inside of a black hole is happens on the inside of a black hole is that space and time in some sense swap that space and time in some sense swap that space and time in some sense swap places. So while I'm on the outside of places. So while I'm on the outside of places. So while I'm on the outside of the black hole, let's say I'm in a nice the black hole, let's say I'm in a nice the black hole, let's say I'm in a nice comfortable space station. This black comfortable space station. This black comfortable space station. This black hole is maybe 10 times the mass of the hole is maybe 10 times the mass of the hole is maybe 10 times the mass of the sun, 60 kilometers across. I could be a sun, 60 kilometers across. I could be a sun, 60 kilometers across. I could be a 100 kilometers out. That's very, very 100 kilometers out. That's very, very 100 kilometers out. That's very, very close. Orbiting quite safely. No big close. Orbiting quite safely. No big close. Orbiting quite safely. No big deal. You know, hanging out. Uh I don't deal. You know, hanging out. Uh I don't deal. You know, hanging out. Uh I don't bug the black hole. Black hole doesn't bug the black hole. Black hole doesn't bug the black hole. Black hole doesn't bug me. It won't suck me up like a bug me. It won't suck me up like a bug me. It won't suck me up like a vacuum or anything crazy. But uh some my vacuum or anything crazy. But uh some my vacuum or anything crazy. But uh some my my astronaut friend jumps in. my astronaut friend jumps in. my astronaut friend jumps in. Um, as they cross the event horizon, Um, as they cross the event horizon, Um, as they cross the event horizon, what I'm calling space, I'm looking on what I'm calling space, I'm looking on what I'm calling space, I'm looking on the outside at this spherical shadow of the outside at this spherical shadow of the outside at this spherical shadow of the black hole cast by maybe light the black hole cast by maybe light the black hole cast by maybe light around it. It's a shadow because around it. It's a shadow because around it. It's a shadow because everything gets too close, falls in.

everything gets too close, falls in. everything gets too close, falls in. It's just this um uh just contrast It's just this um uh just contrast It's just this um uh just contrast against a bright sky. I think, oh, against a bright sky. I think, oh, against a bright sky. I think, oh, there's a center of a sphere and in the there's a center of a sphere and in the there's a center of a sphere and in the center of the sphere is the singularity. center of the sphere is the singularity. center of the sphere is the singularity. It's a point in space from my It's a point in space from my It's a point in space from my perspective, but from the perspective of perspective, but from the perspective of perspective, but from the perspective of the astronaut who falls in, it's the astronaut who falls in, it's the astronaut who falls in, it's actually a point in actually a point in actually a point in time. So their notions of space and time time. So their notions of space and time time. So their notions of space and time have rotated so completely that what I'm have rotated so completely that what I'm have rotated so completely that what I'm calling a direction in space towards the calling a direction in space towards the calling a direction in space towards the center of the black hole, like the center of the black hole, like the center of the black hole, like the center of a physical sphere, they're center of a physical sphere, they're center of a physical sphere, they're going to tell me, well, they can't tell going to tell me, well, they can't tell going to tell me, well, they can't tell me, but they're going to come to the me, but they're going to come to the me, but they're going to come to the conclusion, oh no, that's not a location conclusion, oh no, that's not a location conclusion, oh no, that's not a location in space. That's a location in time. In in space. That's a location in time. In in space. That's a location in time. In other words, the singularity ends up in other words, the singularity ends up in other words, the singularity ends up in their future and they can no more avoid their future and they can no more avoid their future and they can no more avoid the singularity than they can avoid time the singularity than they can avoid time the singularity than they can avoid time coming their way. So there's no coming their way. So there's no coming their way. So there's no shenanigans you can do once you're shenanigans you can do once you're shenanigans you can do once you're inside the black hole to try to skirt it inside the black hole to try to skirt it inside the black hole to try to skirt it the singularity. You can't set yourself the singularity. You can't set yourself the singularity. You can't set yourself up in orbit around it. You can't try to up in orbit around it. You can't try to up in orbit around it. You can't try to fire rockets and stay away from it fire rockets and stay away from it fire rockets and stay away from it because it's in your future and there's because it's in your future and there's because it's in your future and there's an inevitable moment when you will hit an inevitable moment when you will hit an inevitable moment when you will hit it. Usually for a stellar mass black it. Usually for a stellar mass black it. Usually for a stellar mass black hole, we think it's micros secondsonds.

hole, we think it's micros secondsonds. hole, we think it's micros secondsonds. Micros secondsonds to get from the event Micros secondsonds to get from the event Micros secondsonds to get from the event horizon to the to the singularity. To horizon to the to the singularity. To horizon to the to the singularity. To the singularity. Oh boy. Oh boy. So the singularity. Oh boy. Oh boy. So the singularity. Oh boy. Oh boy. So that's describing from the your that's describing from the your that's describing from the your astronaut friend's perspective. Yes. astronaut friend's perspective. Yes. astronaut friend's perspective. Yes. From their perspective, the From their perspective, the From their perspective, the singularities in their future. But from singularities in their future. But from singularities in their future. But from your perspective, what do you see when your perspective, what do you see when your perspective, what do you see when your friend falls into the black hole your friend falls into the black hole your friend falls into the black hole and you're chilling outside and and you're chilling outside and and you're chilling outside and watching? So, one way to think about watching? So, one way to think about watching? So, one way to think about this um is to is to think that as you're this um is to is to think that as you're this um is to is to think that as you're approaching the black hole, the approaching the black hole, the approaching the black hole, the astronaut's spaceime is rotating astronaut's spaceime is rotating astronaut's spaceime is rotating relative to your spacetime. So, let's relative to your spacetime. So, let's relative to your spacetime. So, let's say right now my left is your right. say right now my left is your right. say right now my left is your right. We're not shocked by the fact that We're not shocked by the fact that We're not shocked by the fact that there's this relativity in left and there's this relativity in left and there's this relativity in left and right. It's completely understood. And I right. It's completely understood. And I right. It's completely understood. And I can perform a spatial rotation to align can perform a spatial rotation to align can perform a spatial rotation to align my left with your left. Right now I've my left with your left. Right now I've my left with your left. Right now I've completely rotated left out. Right. Um completely rotated left out. Right. Um completely rotated left out. Right. Um if I just want to draw a a a kind of uh if I just want to draw a a a kind of uh if I just want to draw a a a kind of uh compass diagram, not a compass diagram, compass diagram, not a compass diagram, compass diagram, not a compass diagram, but you know at the top of maps there's but you know at the top of maps there's but you know at the top of maps there's a northsoutheast west. But now time is a northsoutheast west. But now time is a northsoutheast west. But now time is up down and one direction of space is up down and one direction of space is up down and one direction of space is let's say east west. As you approach the let's say east west. As you approach the let's say east west. As you approach the black hole it's as though you're black hole it's as though you're black hole it's as though you're rotating in spaceime is one way of rotating in spaceime is one way of rotating in spaceime is one way of thinking about it. So what is the effect thinking about it. So what is the effect thinking about it. So what is the effect of that? The effect of that is as this of that? The effect of that is as this of that? The effect of that is as this astronaut gets closer and closer to the astronaut gets closer and closer to the astronaut gets closer and closer to the event event event horizon, part of their space is rotated horizon, part of their space is rotated horizon, part of their space is rotated into my time and part of their time is

into my time and part of their time is into my time and part of their time is rotated into my space. So in other rotated into my space. So in other rotated into my space. So in other words, their clocks seem to be less words, their clocks seem to be less words, their clocks seem to be less aligned with my time. And the overall aligned with my time. And the overall aligned with my time. And the overall effect is that their time seems to effect is that their time seems to effect is that their time seems to dilate. the spacing between ticks on the dilate. the spacing between ticks on the dilate. the spacing between ticks on the clock of their watch, let's say, um on clock of their watch, let's say, um on clock of their watch, let's say, um on the on the face of their watch, uh is is the on the face of their watch, uh is is the on the face of their watch, uh is is elongated, dilated relative to mine. And elongated, dilated relative to mine. And elongated, dilated relative to mine. And it seems to me that their watches are it seems to me that their watches are it seems to me that their watches are running slowly, even though they were running slowly, even though they were running slowly, even though they were made in the same factory as mine. They made in the same factory as mine. They made in the same factory as mine. They were both synchronized beautifully and were both synchronized beautifully and were both synchronized beautifully and they're excellent Swiss watches. Um, it they're excellent Swiss watches. Um, it they're excellent Swiss watches. Um, it seems as though time is elapsing more seems as though time is elapsing more seems as though time is elapsing more slowly for my slowly for my slowly for my companion and uh likewise for them it companion and uh likewise for them it companion and uh likewise for them it seems like mine's going really seems like mine's going really seems like mine's going really fast. So years could elapse in my space fast. So years could elapse in my space fast. So years could elapse in my space station. My plants come and go. They station. My plants come and go. They station. My plants come and go. They die. I age faster. I've got gray hair. die. I age faster. I've got gray hair. die. I age faster. I've got gray hair. Um, and they're falling in and it's been Um, and they're falling in and it's been Um, and they're falling in and it's been minutes in their frame of reference. minutes in their frame of reference. minutes in their frame of reference. Um, flowers in their little rocket ship Um, flowers in their little rocket ship Um, flowers in their little rocket ship haven't rotted. They don't have gray haven't rotted. They don't have gray haven't rotted. They don't have gray hair. Their biological clocks have hair. Their biological clocks have hair. Their biological clocks have slowown down relative to ours.

slowown down relative to ours. slowown down relative to ours. Eventually at the event horizon, it's so Eventually at the event horizon, it's so Eventually at the event horizon, it's so extreme. It's so slow. It's as though extreme. It's so slow. It's as though extreme. It's so slow. It's as though their clocks have stopped altogether their clocks have stopped altogether their clocks have stopped altogether from my point of view. And that's to say from my point of view. And that's to say from my point of view. And that's to say that it's as though their time is that it's as though their time is that it's as though their time is completely rotated into my space. And completely rotated into my space. And completely rotated into my space. And this is connected with the idea that this is connected with the idea that this is connected with the idea that inside the black hole space and time inside the black hole space and time inside the black hole space and time have switched places. have switched places. have switched places. Um, so I might see them hover there for Um, so I might see them hover there for Um, so I might see them hover there for millennia. Other astronauts could be millennia. Other astronauts could be millennia. Other astronauts could be born on my space station. Generations born on my space station. Generations born on my space station. Generations could be populated there watching this could be populated there watching this could be populated there watching this poor astronaut never fall in. So poor astronaut never fall in. So poor astronaut never fall in. So basically the time almost comes to a basically the time almost comes to a basically the time almost comes to a standstill, but we still they do fall standstill, but we still they do fall standstill, but we still they do fall in, right? They do fall in eventually. in, right? They do fall in eventually. in, right? They do fall in eventually. Now that's because they have some mass Now that's because they have some mass Now that's because they have some mass of their own. Yeah. So they're not a of their own. Yeah. So they're not a of their own. Yeah. So they're not a perfectly light particle and so they perfectly light particle and so they perfectly light particle and so they deform the event horizon a little bit. deform the event horizon a little bit. deform the event horizon a little bit. You'll actually see the event horizon You'll actually see the event horizon You'll actually see the event horizon bobble and absorb the astronaut. So in bobble and absorb the astronaut. So in bobble and absorb the astronaut. So in some finite time the astronaut will some finite time the astronaut will some finite time the astronaut will actually fall in. So it's a it's like actually fall in. So it's a it's like actually fall in. So it's a it's like this weird space-time bubble that we this weird space-time bubble that we this weird space-time bubble that we have around us. Mhm. And then there's a have around us. Mhm. And then there's a have around us. Mhm. And then there's a very big space-time curvature bubble very big space-time curvature bubble very big space-time curvature bubble thing from the black hole and they thing from the black hole and they thing from the black hole and they there's a nice swirly type situation there's a nice swirly type situation there's a nice swirly type situation going on. That's how you get sucked up.

going on. That's how you get sucked up. going on. That's how you get sucked up. Yeah. So if you're a perfect like uh Yeah. So if you're a perfect like uh Yeah. So if you're a perfect like uh infinitely small particle, you would infinitely small particle, you would infinitely small particle, you would just be take longer and longer and just be take longer and longer and just be take longer and longer and probably just be stuck there or probably just be stuck there or probably just be stuck there or something. But no, there's quantum something. But no, there's quantum something. But no, there's quantum mechanics. Mhm. Eventually you'll fall mechanics. Mhm. Eventually you'll fall mechanics. Mhm. Eventually you'll fall in there. Any perturbation will only go in there. Any perturbation will only go in there. Any perturbation will only go one way. It's unstable in one direction. one way. It's unstable in one direction. one way. It's unstable in one direction. In one direction only. Um, but it's it's In one direction only. Um, but it's it's In one direction only. Um, but it's it's really important to remember that from really important to remember that from really important to remember that from the point of view of the astronaut, not the point of view of the astronaut, not the point of view of the astronaut, not much time has passed at all. You just much time has passed at all. You just much time has passed at all. You just sail right across as far as you're sail right across as far as you're sail right across as far as you're concerned and nothing dramatic happens concerned and nothing dramatic happens concerned and nothing dramatic happens here. You might not even realize you've here. You might not even realize you've here. You might not even realize you've come to the event horizon. You you might come to the event horizon. You you might come to the event horizon. You you might not even realize you've crossed the not even realize you've crossed the not even realize you've crossed the event horizon because it's there's event horizon because it's there's event horizon because it's there's nothing there. Right? This is an empty nothing there. Right? This is an empty nothing there. Right? This is an empty region of spaceime. There's no marker to region of spaceime. There's no marker to region of spaceime. There's no marker to tell you you've reached this very tell you you've reached this very tell you you've reached this very dangerous point of no return. You can dangerous point of no return. You can dangerous point of no return. You can fire your rockets like hell when you're fire your rockets like hell when you're fire your rockets like hell when you're on the outside and maybe even escape, on the outside and maybe even escape, on the outside and maybe even escape, right? But once you get to that point, right? But once you get to that point, right? But once you get to that point, there's no amount of energy. All the there's no amount of energy. All the there's no amount of energy. All the energy in the universe will not save you energy in the universe will not save you energy in the universe will not save you from uh this demise. You know, there's from uh this demise. You know, there's from uh this demise. You know, there's different size black holes. Mhm. And different size black holes. Mhm. And different size black holes. Mhm. And maybe can we talk about the experience maybe can we talk about the experience maybe can we talk about the experience that you have falling into a black hole that you have falling into a black hole that you have falling into a black hole depending on what the size of the black depending on what the size of the black depending on what the size of the black hole is? Yeah. cuz um as I understand if hole is? Yeah. cuz um as I understand if hole is? Yeah. cuz um as I understand if the the the bigger it the the the bigger it the the the bigger it is, the less drastic the experience of is, the less drastic the experience of is, the less drastic the experience of falling into it. Yeah, that might falling into it. Yeah, that might falling into it. Yeah, that might surprise people. The bigger it is, the surprise people. The bigger it is, the surprise people. The bigger it is, the less noticeable it is that you've you've less noticeable it is that you've you've less noticeable it is that you've you've crossed the event horizon. One way to

crossed the event horizon. One way to crossed the event horizon. One way to think about it is um curvature is less think about it is um curvature is less think about it is um curvature is less noticeable the bigger it is. So, if I'm noticeable the bigger it is. So, if I'm noticeable the bigger it is. So, if I'm standing on a basketball, I'm very aware standing on a basketball, I'm very aware standing on a basketball, I'm very aware I'm I'm balancing on a curved surface. I I'm I'm balancing on a curved surface. I I'm I'm balancing on a curved surface. I my two feet are in different locations my two feet are in different locations my two feet are in different locations and I really notice. But on the Earth, and I really notice. But on the Earth, and I really notice. But on the Earth, you actually have to be kind of clever you actually have to be kind of clever you actually have to be kind of clever to deduce that the Earth is curved. The to deduce that the Earth is curved. The to deduce that the Earth is curved. The bigger the planet, the less you're going bigger the planet, the less you're going bigger the planet, the less you're going to notice the curvature. Um the the to notice the curvature. Um the the to notice the curvature. Um the the global curvature. And it's the same global curvature. And it's the same global curvature. And it's the same thing with a black hole, a huge huge thing with a black hole, a huge huge thing with a black hole, a huge huge black hole. It just is kind of feels black hole. It just is kind of feels black hole. It just is kind of feels like just flat. You don't really notice. like just flat. You don't really notice. like just flat. You don't really notice. I'm trying to figure out how the phys I'm trying to figure out how the phys I'm trying to figure out how the phys because if you don't notice and there's because if you don't notice and there's because if you don't notice and there's nothing there but the physics is weird nothing there but the physics is weird nothing there but the physics is weird in your frame of reference. in your frame of reference. in your frame of reference. No. Well, so another cool thing. So I'd No. Well, so another cool thing. So I'd No. Well, so another cool thing. So I'd like to dispel myths. like to dispel myths. like to dispel myths. Yeah. Do you need a Yeah. Do you need a Yeah. Do you need a minute? You're holding your head. minute? You're holding your head. minute? You're holding your head. There's a sense like you you should be There's a sense like you you should be There's a sense like you you should be able to know when you're inside of a able to know when you're inside of a able to know when you're inside of a black hole when you've crossed the event black hole when you've crossed the event black hole when you've crossed the event horizon. But no, from your frame of horizon. But no, from your frame of horizon. But no, from your frame of reference, you might not be able to reference, you might not be able to reference, you might not be able to know. Yeah, at first at least, you might know. Yeah, at first at least, you might know. Yeah, at first at least, you might not realize what's happened. There are not realize what's happened. There are not realize what's happened. There are some hints. For instance, black holes some hints. For instance, black holes some hints. For instance, black holes are dark from the outside, but they're are dark from the outside, but they're are dark from the outside, but they're not necessarily dark on the inside. So not necessarily dark on the inside. So not necessarily dark on the inside. So this is uh a kind of fascinating that this is uh a kind of fascinating that this is uh a kind of fascinating that your experience could be that it's quite your experience could be that it's quite your experience could be that it's quite bright inside the black hole because all bright inside the black hole because all bright inside the black hole because all the light from the galaxy can be shining the light from the galaxy can be shining the light from the galaxy can be shining in behind you and it's focusing down in behind you and it's focusing down in behind you and it's focusing down because you're all approaching this

because you're all approaching this because you're all approaching this really focused region in the interior. really focused region in the interior. really focused region in the interior. And so you actually see a bright white And so you actually see a bright white And so you actually see a bright white flash of light as you approach the flash of light as you approach the flash of light as you approach the singularity. Um, you know, I kind of uh singularity. Um, you know, I kind of uh singularity. Um, you know, I kind of uh I joke that it's a, you know, it's like I joke that it's a, you know, it's like I joke that it's a, you know, it's like a near-death experience. You see the a near-death experience. You see the a near-death experience. You see the light at the end of the tunnel. So, you light at the end of the tunnel. So, you light at the end of the tunnel. So, you would see millennia pass on Earth. You would see millennia pass on Earth. You would see millennia pass on Earth. You could see the evolution of um the entire could see the evolution of um the entire could see the evolution of um the entire galaxy, you know, one big bright flash galaxy, you know, one big bright flash galaxy, you know, one big bright flash of light. So, it's like a near-death of light. So, it's like a near-death of light. So, it's like a near-death experience, but it's a definitely a experience, but it's a definitely a experience, but it's a definitely a total death experience. It goes pretty total death experience. It goes pretty total death experience. It goes pretty fast. But you looking out, you looking fast. But you looking out, you looking fast. But you looking out, you looking out, everything's going super fast. out, everything's going super fast. out, everything's going super fast. Yeah. the Yeah. the Yeah. the clocks um on the earth on the space clocks um on the earth on the space clocks um on the earth on the space station seem to be progressing very station seem to be progressing very station seem to be progressing very rapidly relative to yours. The light can rapidly relative to yours. The light can rapidly relative to yours. The light can catch up to you and you get this bright catch up to you and you get this bright catch up to you and you get this bright beam of light as you see the evolution beam of light as you see the evolution beam of light as you see the evolution of the galaxy unfold and of the galaxy unfold and of the galaxy unfold and um I mean it sort of depends on the size um I mean it sort of depends on the size um I mean it sort of depends on the size of the black hole and how long you have of the black hole and how long you have of the black hole and how long you have to hang around. The bigger the black to hang around. The bigger the black to hang around. The bigger the black hole the longer it takes you to expire hole the longer it takes you to expire hole the longer it takes you to expire in the center. Obviously the human uh in the center. Obviously the human uh in the center. Obviously the human uh sensory system we're not able to process sensory system we're not able to process sensory system we're not able to process that information correctly right it that information correctly right it that information correctly right it would be a microcond in a right that would be a microcond in a right that would be a microcond in a right that would be too fast. Yeah but it would be would be too fast. Yeah but it would be would be too fast. Yeah but it would be wow it' be so cool to get that wow it' be so cool to get that wow it' be so cool to get that information but a big black hole you information but a big black hole you information but a big black hole you could actually you know hang around for could actually you know hang around for could actually you know hang around for some months. So yeah what's uh how are some months. So yeah what's uh how are some months. So yeah what's uh how are small black holes versus super massive small black holes versus super massive small black holes versus super massive uh black holes formed just so people can uh black holes formed just so people can uh black holes formed just so people can kind of load that in. Are they are they kind of load that in. Are they are they kind of load that in. Are they are they all is it always a star? No. So this is

all is it always a star? No. So this is all is it always a star? No. So this is also why it's important to think of also why it's important to think of also why it's important to think of black holes more black holes more black holes more abstractly. They are something very abstractly. They are something very abstractly. They are something very profound in the universe and there are profound in the universe and there are profound in the universe and there are probably multiple ways to make black probably multiple ways to make black probably multiple ways to make black holes. Um making them with stars is most holes. Um making them with stars is most holes. Um making them with stars is most plentiful. There could be hundreds of plentiful. There could be hundreds of plentiful. There could be hundreds of millions maybe even a billion black millions maybe even a billion black millions maybe even a billion black holes in our Milky Way galaxy alone. holes in our Milky Way galaxy alone. holes in our Milky Way galaxy alone. that many stars. It's only about 1% of that many stars. It's only about 1% of that many stars. It's only about 1% of stars that will um end their lives in in stars that will um end their lives in in stars that will um end their lives in in in a death state that is a black hole. in a death state that is a black hole. in a death state that is a black hole. But we now see and this was really quite But we now see and this was really quite But we now see and this was really quite a surprise that there are super massive a surprise that there are super massive a surprise that there are super massive black holes. They're billions or even black holes. They're billions or even black holes. They're billions or even hundreds of billions of times the mass hundreds of billions of times the mass hundreds of billions of times the mass of the sun and um uh millions to to tens of the sun and um uh millions to to tens of the sun and um uh millions to to tens of billions maybe even hundreds of of billions maybe even hundreds of of billions maybe even hundreds of billions. So extremely massive. We don't billions. So extremely massive. We don't billions. So extremely massive. We don't think that the universe has had enough think that the universe has had enough think that the universe has had enough time to make them from stars that just time to make them from stars that just time to make them from stars that just merge. We know that two black holes can merge. We know that two black holes can merge. We know that two black holes can merge and make a bigger black hole and merge and make a bigger black hole and merge and make a bigger black hole and then those can merge and make a bigger then those can merge and make a bigger then those can merge and make a bigger black hole. We don't think there's been black hole. We don't think there's been black hole. We don't think there's been enough time for that. So, it's suspected enough time for that. So, it's suspected enough time for that. So, it's suspected that they're formed very early, maybe that they're formed very early, maybe that they're formed very early, maybe even a hundred few hundred million years even a hundred few hundred million years even a hundred few hundred million years after the big bang and that they're after the big bang and that they're after the big bang and that they're formed directly by collapsing out of formed directly by collapsing out of formed directly by collapsing out of primordial stuff. Mhm. that there's a primordial stuff. Mhm. that there's a primordial stuff. Mhm. that there's a direct collapse right into the black direct collapse right into the black direct collapse right into the black hole. So like in the in the very early hole. So like in the in the very early hole. So like in the in the very early universe, these are primordial black universe, these are primordial black universe, these are primordial black holes from the stars. Not quite Wait, holes from the stars. Not quite Wait, holes from the stars. Not quite Wait, how how do you get from that soup black

how how do you get from that soup black how how do you get from that soup black holes right away, right? So it's odd, holes right away, right? So it's odd, holes right away, right? So it's odd, but it's weirdly easier to make a big but it's weirdly easier to make a big but it's weirdly easier to make a big black hole out of something that's just black hole out of something that's just black hole out of something that's just the density of air if it's really really the density of air if it's really really the density of air if it's really really as big as what we're talking about. So, as big as what we're talking about. So, as big as what we're talking about. So, in some sense, if they're just allowed in some sense, if they're just allowed in some sense, if they're just allowed to directly collapse very early in the to directly collapse very early in the to directly collapse very early in the universe's history, they can do that universe's history, they can do that universe's history, they can do that more easily. Um, and it's so much so more easily. Um, and it's so much so more easily. Um, and it's so much so that we think that there's one of these that we think that there's one of these that we think that there's one of these super massive black holes in the center super massive black holes in the center super massive black holes in the center of every galaxy. So, they're not rare of every galaxy. So, they're not rare of every galaxy. So, they're not rare and we know where they are. They're in and we know where they are. They're in and we know where they are. They're in the nuclei of galaxies. So, they're the nuclei of galaxies. So, they're the nuclei of galaxies. So, they're bound to the very early formation of bound to the very early formation of bound to the very early formation of entire galaxies in um in a really entire galaxies in um in a really entire galaxies in um in a really surprising and deeply connected way. I surprising and deeply connected way. I surprising and deeply connected way. I wonder if the like the chicken or the wonder if the like the chicken or the wonder if the like the chicken or the egg is it uh like how critical how egg is it uh like how critical how egg is it uh like how critical how essential are the super massive black essential are the super massive black essential are the super massive black holes to the formation of galaxies? holes to the formation of galaxies? holes to the formation of galaxies? Yeah, I mean it's ongoing, right? It's Yeah, I mean it's ongoing, right? It's Yeah, I mean it's ongoing, right? It's ongoing. Which came first, the black ongoing. Which came first, the black ongoing. Which came first, the black hole or the galaxy? Um probably um big hole or the galaxy? Um probably um big hole or the galaxy? Um probably um big early stars which were just made out of early stars which were just made out of early stars which were just made out of hydrogen and helium from the big bang.

hydrogen and helium from the big bang. hydrogen and helium from the big bang. Um there wasn't anything else, not much Um there wasn't anything else, not much Um there wasn't anything else, not much of anything else. um those early stars of anything else. um those early stars of anything else. um those early stars were forming and then maybe the black were forming and then maybe the black were forming and then maybe the black holes and kind of the galaxies were like holes and kind of the galaxies were like holes and kind of the galaxies were like these gassy clouds around them. Um but these gassy clouds around them. Um but these gassy clouds around them. Um but there's probably a deep relationship there's probably a deep relationship there's probably a deep relationship between the black hole powering jets, between the black hole powering jets, between the black hole powering jets, these jets blowing material out of the these jets blowing material out of the these jets blowing material out of the galaxy that that shaped galaxies maybe galaxy that that shaped galaxies maybe galaxy that that shaped galaxies maybe kind of curbed their growth. Um and so I kind of curbed their growth. Um and so I kind of curbed their growth. Um and so I think the mechanisms are still are still think the mechanisms are still are still think the mechanisms are still are still ongoing attempts to understand exactly ongoing attempts to understand exactly ongoing attempts to understand exactly the ordering of these things. Can we get the ordering of these things. Can we get the ordering of these things. Can we get back to spacetime? Just going back to back to spacetime? Just going back to back to spacetime? Just going back to the beginning of the 20th century. How the beginning of the 20th century. How the beginning of the 20th century. How do you imagine spacetime? How do we as do you imagine spacetime? How do we as do you imagine spacetime? How do we as human beings supposed to visualize and human beings supposed to visualize and human beings supposed to visualize and think about spacetime where you know think about spacetime where you know think about spacetime where you know time is just another dimension in this time is just another dimension in this time is just another dimension in this 4D space that combines space and time? 4D space that combines space and time? 4D space that combines space and time? Because we've been talking about Because we've been talking about Because we've been talking about morphing in all kinds of different ways. morphing in all kinds of different ways. morphing in all kinds of different ways. is a curvature of spacetime like how do is a curvature of spacetime like how do is a curvature of spacetime like how do you how are we supposed to conceive of you how are we supposed to conceive of you how are we supposed to conceive of it? How do you think of it? Yeah, time it? How do you think of it? Yeah, time it? How do you think of it? Yeah, time is just another dimension. There are is just another dimension. There are is just another dimension. There are different ways we can think about it. We different ways we can think about it. We different ways we can think about it. We can can can imagine drawing a map of space and imagine drawing a map of space and imagine drawing a map of space and treating time as another direction in treating time as another direction in treating time as another direction in that that that map. But we're limited because as map. But we're limited because as map. But we're limited because as three-dimensional beings, we can't three-dimensional beings, we can't three-dimensional beings, we can't really draw four dimensions, which is really draw four dimensions, which is really draw four dimensions, which is what I'd require. three spatial because what I'd require. three spatial because what I'd require. three spatial because I'm pretty sure there's at least three.

I'm pretty sure there's at least three. I'm pretty sure there's at least three. I think there's probably more, but um I think there's probably more, but um I think there's probably more, but um I'm happy just talking about the large I'm happy just talking about the large I'm happy just talking about the large dimensions, the three we see up, down, dimensions, the three we see up, down, dimensions, the three we see up, down, right, east, west, uh north, south, right, east, west, uh north, south, right, east, west, uh north, south, three spatial dimensions and time is the three spatial dimensions and time is the three spatial dimensions and time is the fourth. Nobody can really visualize it. fourth. Nobody can really visualize it. fourth. Nobody can really visualize it. Um but we know mathematically how to Um but we know mathematically how to Um but we know mathematically how to unpack it on paper. I can mathematically unpack it on paper. I can mathematically unpack it on paper. I can mathematically suppress one of the spatial dimensions suppress one of the spatial dimensions suppress one of the spatial dimensions and then I can draw it pretty well. Now and then I can draw it pretty well. Now and then I can draw it pretty well. Now the problem is that we'd call it a the problem is that we'd call it a the problem is that we'd call it a ukitian spacetime. A uklitian spacetime ukitian spacetime. A uklitian spacetime ukitian spacetime. A uklitian spacetime is when all the dimensions are is when all the dimensions are is when all the dimensions are orthogonal and are treated equally. Time orthogonal and are treated equally. Time orthogonal and are treated equally. Time is not another ukitian dimension. It's is not another ukitian dimension. It's is not another ukitian dimension. It's actually a manowskian spacetime. But it actually a manowskian spacetime. But it actually a manowskian spacetime. But it means that the spacetime, we're means that the spacetime, we're means that the spacetime, we're misrepresenting it when we draw it, but misrepresenting it when we draw it, but misrepresenting it when we draw it, but we're misrepresenting it in a way that we're misrepresenting it in a way that we're misrepresenting it in a way that we deeply understand. I can give you an we deeply understand. I can give you an we deeply understand. I can give you an example. The Earth, I can project onto a example. The Earth, I can project onto a example. The Earth, I can project onto a flat sheet of paper. I am now flat sheet of paper. I am now flat sheet of paper. I am now misrepresenting a map of the Earth. And misrepresenting a map of the Earth. And misrepresenting a map of the Earth. And I know that, but I understand the rules I know that, but I understand the rules I know that, but I understand the rules for how to add distances on this for how to add distances on this for how to add distances on this misrepresentation because the Earth is misrepresentation because the Earth is misrepresentation because the Earth is not a flat sheet of paper. It's a not a flat sheet of paper. It's a not a flat sheet of paper. It's a sphere. And um and as long as I sphere. And um and as long as I sphere. And um and as long as I understand the rules for how I get from understand the rules for how I get from understand the rules for how I get from the north pole to the south pole that the north pole to the south pole that the north pole to the south pole that I'm moving along really a great arc and I'm moving along really a great arc and I'm moving along really a great arc and I understand that the distance is not I understand that the distance is not I understand that the distance is not the distance I would measure on a flat the distance I would measure on a flat the distance I would measure on a flat sheet of paper then I can do a really sheet of paper then I can do a really sheet of paper then I can do a really great job with a map and understanding great job with a map and understanding great job with a map and understanding the rules of addition multiplication and

the rules of addition multiplication and the rules of addition multiplication and the geometry is not the geometry of a the geometry is not the geometry of a the geometry is not the geometry of a flat sheet of paper. I can do the same flat sheet of paper. I can do the same flat sheet of paper. I can do the same thing with spacetime. I can draw it on a thing with spacetime. I can draw it on a thing with spacetime. I can draw it on a flat sheet of paper but I know that it's flat sheet of paper but I know that it's flat sheet of paper but I know that it's not actually a flat uklidian space. And not actually a flat uklidian space. And not actually a flat uklidian space. And so my rules for measuring distances are so my rules for measuring distances are so my rules for measuring distances are different than the rules I would use different than the rules I would use different than the rules I would use that for instance cartisian rules of that for instance cartisian rules of that for instance cartisian rules of geometry. I I would know to use the geometry. I I would know to use the geometry. I I would know to use the correct rules for manovski spacetime and correct rules for manovski spacetime and correct rules for manovski spacetime and and that will allow me to to to to and that will allow me to to to to and that will allow me to to to to calculate how long uh time has elapsed calculate how long uh time has elapsed calculate how long uh time has elapsed which is now a kind of a length a which is now a kind of a length a which is now a kind of a length a space-time length on my map um between space-time length on my map um between space-time length on my map um between two relative observers. and I will get two relative observers. and I will get two relative observers. and I will get the correct answer. Um but only if I use the correct answer. Um but only if I use the correct answer. Um but only if I use these different rules. So then what does these different rules. So then what does these different rules. So then what does according to general relativity does according to general relativity does according to general relativity does uh objects with mass due to the uh objects with mass due to the uh objects with mass due to the spacetime? Right. Exactly. So Einstein spacetime? Right. Exactly. So Einstein spacetime? Right. Exactly. So Einstein struggled for this completely general struggled for this completely general struggled for this completely general theory not a specific solution like a theory not a specific solution like a theory not a specific solution like a black hole or an expanding spaceime or black hole or an expanding spaceime or black hole or an expanding spaceime or galaxies make lenses or those are all galaxies make lenses or those are all galaxies make lenses or those are all solutions. That's why what he did was so solutions. That's why what he did was so solutions. That's why what he did was so enormous. It's an entire paradigm that enormous. It's an entire paradigm that enormous. It's an entire paradigm that says over here is matter and energy. I'm says over here is matter and energy. I'm says over here is matter and energy. I'm going to call that the right hand side going to call that the right hand side going to call that the right hand side of the equation. Everything on the right of the equation. Everything on the right of the equation. Everything on the right hand side of Einstein's equations is how hand side of Einstein's equations is how hand side of Einstein's equations is how matter and energy are distributed in matter and energy are distributed in matter and energy are distributed in spaceime. On the left hand side tells spaceime. On the left hand side tells spaceime. On the left hand side tells you how space and time deform in you how space and time deform in you how space and time deform in response to that matter and energy. And

response to that matter and energy. And response to that matter and energy. And it can be impossible to solve some of it can be impossible to solve some of it can be impossible to solve some of those equations. What was so amazing those equations. What was so amazing those equations. What was so amazing about what Shell did is he found this about what Shell did is he found this about what Shell did is he found this very elegant simple solution within like very elegant simple solution within like very elegant simple solution within like a month of reading um this final a month of reading um this final a month of reading um this final formulation. But Einstein didn't go formulation. But Einstein didn't go formulation. But Einstein didn't go through and try to find all the through and try to find all the through and try to find all the solutions. He sort of gave it to us, solutions. He sort of gave it to us, solutions. He sort of gave it to us, right? He shared this and then lots of right? He shared this and then lots of right? He shared this and then lots of people since have been scrambling to try people since have been scrambling to try people since have been scrambling to try to ah I can predict the curvature of the to ah I can predict the curvature of the to ah I can predict the curvature of the spaceime if I tell you how the matter spaceime if I tell you how the matter spaceime if I tell you how the matter and energy is laid out. If it's all and energy is laid out. If it's all and energy is laid out. If it's all compact in a spherical system like a sun compact in a spherical system like a sun compact in a spherical system like a sun or even a black hole, I can understand or even a black hole, I can understand or even a black hole, I can understand the curves in the spaceime around it. I the curves in the spaceime around it. I the curves in the spaceime around it. I can solve for the for the shape of the can solve for the for the shape of the can solve for the for the shape of the spacetime. I can also say, well, what if spacetime. I can also say, well, what if spacetime. I can also say, well, what if the universe is full of gas or light and the universe is full of gas or light and the universe is full of gas or light and it's all kind of uniform everywhere and it's all kind of uniform everywhere and it's all kind of uniform everywhere and I'll find a different and equally I'll find a different and equally I'll find a different and equally surprising solution, which is that the surprising solution, which is that the surprising solution, which is that the universe would universe would universe would expand. In response to that, that it's expand. In response to that, that it's expand. In response to that, that it's not static, that the distances between not static, that the distances between not static, that the distances between galaxies would grow. This was a huge galaxies would grow. This was a huge galaxies would grow. This was a huge surprise to Einstein. Um, so all of surprise to Einstein. Um, so all of surprise to Einstein. Um, so all of these consequences of his theory, you these consequences of his theory, you these consequences of his theory, you know, came with know, came with know, came with revelations that were not at all obvious revelations that were not at all obvious revelations that were not at all obvious when he first wrote down um the general when he first wrote down um the general when he first wrote down um the general theory and he was afraid to take the theory and he was afraid to take the theory and he was afraid to take the consequences of that theory seriously, consequences of that theory seriously, consequences of that theory seriously, which is aen the theory itself in its which is aen the theory itself in its which is aen the theory itself in its scope and grandeur and power scope and grandeur and power scope and grandeur and power is scary. So I can understand. Then is scary. So I can understand. Then is scary. So I can understand. Then there's, you know, the the edges of the there's, you know, the the edges of the there's, you know, the the edges of the theory where it falls apart. The

theory where it falls apart. The theory where it falls apart. The consequences of the theory that are consequences of the theory that are consequences of the theory that are extreme, it's hard to take seriously. So extreme, it's hard to take seriously. So extreme, it's hard to take seriously. So you can sort of empathize. Yeah. He very you can sort of empathize. Yeah. He very you can sort of empathize. Yeah. He very much resisted the expansion. So if you much resisted the expansion. So if you much resisted the expansion. So if you think about 1905 when he's writing these think about 1905 when he's writing these think about 1905 when he's writing these sequence of unbelievable papers as a sequence of unbelievable papers as a sequence of unbelievable papers as a 25year-old who can't get a job, you 25year-old who can't get a job, you 25year-old who can't get a job, you know, as a physicist and he writes all know, as a physicist and he writes all know, as a physicist and he writes all of these remarkable papers on relativity of these remarkable papers on relativity of these remarkable papers on relativity and quantum mechanics. Um and then even and quantum mechanics. Um and then even and quantum mechanics. Um and then even in in in 191516 he does not know that there are 191516 he does not know that there are 191516 he does not know that there are other galaxies out there. This this was other galaxies out there. This this was other galaxies out there. This this was not known. People had mused about it. Um not known. People had mused about it. Um not known. People had mused about it. Um there were these kind of smudges on the there were these kind of smudges on the there were these kind of smudges on the sky that sky that sky that people contemplated what if there are people contemplated what if there are people contemplated what if there are other island universes. You know going other island universes. You know going other island universes. You know going back to Kant thought about this. But it back to Kant thought about this. But it back to Kant thought about this. But it wasn't until Hubble it really wasn't wasn't until Hubble it really wasn't wasn't until Hubble it really wasn't until the late 20s um that it's until the late 20s um that it's until the late 20s um that it's confirmed that there are other galaxies. confirmed that there are other galaxies. confirmed that there are other galaxies. Wow. Yeah. He didn't Wow. Yeah. He didn't Wow. Yeah. He didn't obviously there's so much we think of obviously there's so much we think of obviously there's so much we think of now that he didn't think of. So there's now that he didn't think of. So there's now that he didn't think of. So there's no big bang no big bang no big bang static universe. But these are all static universe. But these are all static universe. But these are all connected. Wow. Yeah. So he's operating connected. Wow. Yeah. So he's operating connected. Wow. Yeah. So he's operating on very little information. Very little on very little information. Very little on very little information. Very little information. That's absolutely true.

information. That's absolutely true. information. That's absolutely true. Actually, one of the things I like to Actually, one of the things I like to Actually, one of the things I like to point out is the idea of relativity was point out is the idea of relativity was point out is the idea of relativity was foisted on people in this kind of foisted on people in this kind of foisted on people in this kind of cultural way. But there's many ways in cultural way. But there's many ways in cultural way. But there's many ways in which you could call it a theory of which you could call it a theory of which you could call it a theory of absolutism. And um the way Einstein got absolutism. And um the way Einstein got absolutism. And um the way Einstein got there with so little information um is there with so little information um is there with so little information um is by adhering to certain very strict by adhering to certain very strict by adhering to certain very strict absolutes like the absolutes like the absolutes like the absolute limit of the speed of light and absolute limit of the speed of light and absolute limit of the speed of light and the absolute constancy of the speed of the absolute constancy of the speed of the absolute constancy of the speed of light which was completely bizarre when light which was completely bizarre when light which was completely bizarre when it was first uh discovered. really that it was first uh discovered. really that it was first uh discovered. really that was observed through experiments trying was observed through experiments trying was observed through experiments trying to figure out to figure out to figure out um you know what would the relative um you know what would the relative um you know what would the relative speed of light be? It's the only really speed of light be? It's the only really speed of light be? It's the only really only massless particles have this only massless particles have this only massless particles have this property that they have an absolute property that they have an absolute property that they have an absolute speed and if you think about it it's speed and if you think about it it's speed and if you think about it it's incredibly strange. Yeah, it's really incredibly strange. Yeah, it's really incredibly strange. Yeah, it's really strange. Incredibly strange. And so so strange. Incredibly strange. And so so strange. Incredibly strange. And so so from from a theoretical perspective he from from a theoretical perspective he from from a theoretical perspective he he's he takes that seriously. He takes he's he takes that seriously. He takes he's he takes that seriously. He takes it very seriously and everyone else is it very seriously and everyone else is it very seriously and everyone else is trying to come up with models to make it trying to come up with models to make it trying to come up with models to make it go away. Um to make uh the speed of go away. Um to make uh the speed of go away. Um to make uh the speed of light be a little bit more reasonable light be a little bit more reasonable light be a little bit more reasonable like everything else in the universe. Um like everything else in the universe. Um like everything else in the universe. Um you know if I run at a car, two cars you know if I run at a car, two cars you know if I run at a car, two cars coming at each other, they're coming at coming at each other, they're coming at coming at each other, they're coming at each other faster than if one of them each other faster than if one of them each other faster than if one of them stops. It's really a basic observation stops. It's really a basic observation stops. It's really a basic observation of reality right here. This is saying of reality right here. This is saying of reality right here. This is saying that if I'm racing at a light beam um that if I'm racing at a light beam um that if I'm racing at a light beam um and you're standing still relative to and you're standing still relative to and you're standing still relative to the source, uh we'll measure the same the source, uh we'll measure the same the source, uh we'll measure the same exact speed of light. Very strange. And exact speed of light. Very strange. And exact speed of light. Very strange. And he gets to relativity by saying, well,

he gets to relativity by saying, well, he gets to relativity by saying, well, what's speed? Speed is distance. It's what's speed? Speed is distance. It's what's speed? Speed is distance. It's space over time. It's how far you space over time. It's how far you space over time. It's how far you travel. Um it's the space you travel in travel. Um it's the space you travel in travel. Um it's the space you travel in a certain duration of time. And he said, a certain duration of time. And he said, a certain duration of time. And he said, "Well, I bet something must be wrong "Well, I bet something must be wrong "Well, I bet something must be wrong then with space and time." So this is an then with space and time." So this is an then with space and time." So this is an enormous leap. He's willing to give up enormous leap. He's willing to give up enormous leap. He's willing to give up the absolute character of space and time the absolute character of space and time the absolute character of space and time in favor of keeping the speed of light in favor of keeping the speed of light in favor of keeping the speed of light constant. How was he able to constant. How was he able to constant. How was he able to intuitit a world of curved spaceime? intuitit a world of curved spaceime? intuitit a world of curved spaceime? Like I think it's like one of the most Like I think it's like one of the most Like I think it's like one of the most special leaps in human history, right? special leaps in human history, right? special leaps in human history, right? Cuz you're it's amazing. like it's very Cuz you're it's amazing. like it's very Cuz you're it's amazing. like it's very very very difficult to make that kind of very very difficult to make that kind of very very difficult to make that kind of leap. I I'll tell you it took me I think leap. I I'll tell you it took me I think leap. I I'll tell you it took me I think a long time to I can't say this is how a long time to I can't say this is how a long time to I can't say this is how he got there exactly. It's not as though he got there exactly. It's not as though he got there exactly. It's not as though I studied the historical accounts of or I studied the historical accounts of or I studied the historical accounts of or his description of his internal states.

his description of his internal states. his description of his internal states. This is more having learned the subject This is more having learned the subject This is more having learned the subject how I try to tell people how to get how I try to tell people how to get how I try to tell people how to get there in a few short steps. Um, one is there in a few short steps. Um, one is there in a few short steps. Um, one is to start with the equivalence principle to start with the equivalence principle to start with the equivalence principle which he called the happiest thought of which he called the happiest thought of which he called the happiest thought of his his his life. And the equivalence principle life. And the equivalence principle life. And the equivalence principle comes pretty early on in his thinking. comes pretty early on in his thinking. comes pretty early on in his thinking. And and um it starts with something like And and um it starts with something like And and um it starts with something like this. Like right now I think I'm feeling this. Like right now I think I'm feeling this. Like right now I think I'm feeling gravity because I'm sitting in this gravity because I'm sitting in this gravity because I'm sitting in this chair and I feel the pressure of the chair and I feel the pressure of the chair and I feel the pressure of the chair and it's stopping me from falling chair and it's stopping me from falling chair and it's stopping me from falling and um lie down in a bed and I feel and um lie down in a bed and I feel and um lie down in a bed and I feel heavy on the bed and I think of that as heavy on the bed and I think of that as heavy on the bed and I think of that as gravity. gravity. gravity. Ein has a beautiful ability to remove Ein has a beautiful ability to remove Ein has a beautiful ability to remove all of these all of these all of these extraneous factors, including atoms. So, extraneous factors, including atoms. So, extraneous factors, including atoms. So, let's imagine instead that you're in an let's imagine instead that you're in an let's imagine instead that you're in an elevator and you feel heavy on your feet elevator and you feel heavy on your feet elevator and you feel heavy on your feet because the floor of the elevator is because the floor of the elevator is because the floor of the elevator is resisting your fall, but I want to resisting your fall, but I want to resisting your fall, but I want to remove the elevator. What does the remove the elevator. What does the remove the elevator. What does the elevator have to do with fundamental elevator have to do with fundamental elevator have to do with fundamental properties of gravity? So, I cut the properties of gravity? So, I cut the properties of gravity? So, I cut the cable. Now, I'm falling, but the cable. Now, I'm falling, but the cable. Now, I'm falling, but the elevator is falling at the same rate as elevator is falling at the same rate as elevator is falling at the same rate as me. So now I'm floating in the elevator.

me. So now I'm floating in the elevator. me. So now I'm floating in the elevator. And if this happened to me, if I woke up And if this happened to me, if I woke up And if this happened to me, if I woke up in this state of falling or floating in in this state of falling or floating in in this state of falling or floating in the elevator, I might not know if I was the elevator, I might not know if I was the elevator, I might not know if I was in empty space just floating in empty space just floating in empty space just floating um or if I was falling around the earth. um or if I was falling around the earth. um or if I was falling around the earth. There would actually equivalent There would actually equivalent There would actually equivalent situations. I would not be able to tell situations. I would not be able to tell situations. I would not be able to tell the difference. I'm actually when I get the difference. I'm actually when I get the difference. I'm actually when I get rid of the elevator in this way by rid of the elevator in this way by rid of the elevator in this way by cutting the cable, I'm actually cutting the cable, I'm actually cutting the cable, I'm actually experiencing weightlessness. experiencing weightlessness. experiencing weightlessness. And that weightlessness is the purest And that weightlessness is the purest And that weightlessness is the purest experience of experience of experience of gravity. And um and so this idea of gravity. And um and so this idea of gravity. And um and so this idea of falling is actually fundamental. It's falling is actually fundamental. It's falling is actually fundamental. It's how we talk about it all the time. The how we talk about it all the time. The how we talk about it all the time. The earth is in a free fall around the sun. earth is in a free fall around the sun. earth is in a free fall around the sun. It's actually falling. It's not firing It's actually falling. It's not firing It's actually falling. It's not firing engines, right? It's just it's just engines, right? It's just it's just engines, right? It's just it's just falling all the time, but it's just falling all the time, but it's just falling all the time, but it's just cruising so fast. So actually Yeah. God, cruising so fast. So actually Yeah. God, cruising so fast. So actually Yeah. God, you said so many profound things. So one you said so many profound things. So one you said so many profound things. So one of them is really one of the ways to of them is really one of the ways to of them is really one of the ways to experience experience experience spaceime is to be falling. To be falling spaceime is to be falling. To be falling spaceime is to be falling. To be falling that is the purest experience of that is the purest experience of that is the purest experience of gravity. The experience of gravity uh gravity. The experience of gravity uh gravity. The experience of gravity uh unfettered uninterrupted by unfettered uninterrupted by unfettered uninterrupted by atoms is weightlessness.

atoms is weightlessness. atoms is weightlessness. Yeah. That observation no it has an Yeah. That observation no it has an Yeah. That observation no it has an unhappy ending. the elevator story, unhappy ending. the elevator story, unhappy ending. the elevator story, right? Because of atoms. Again, that's right? Because of atoms. Again, that's right? Because of atoms. Again, that's the fault of the atoms in your body the fault of the atoms in your body the fault of the atoms in your body interacting electromagnetically with the interacting electromagnetically with the interacting electromagnetically with the crust of the earth or the bottom of the crust of the earth or the bottom of the crust of the earth or the bottom of the building or whatever it is. Um, but this building or whatever it is. Um, but this building or whatever it is. Um, but this period of freeall, so the first period of freeall, so the first period of freeall, so the first observation is that that is the purest observation is that that is the purest observation is that that is the purest experience of gravity. Now, I can experience of gravity. Now, I can experience of gravity. Now, I can convince you that things follow along convince you that things follow along convince you that things follow along curved paths because I could take uh, curved paths because I could take uh, curved paths because I could take uh, you know, a pen and if I throw it, we you know, a pen and if I throw it, we you know, a pen and if I throw it, we both know it's going to follow an arc both know it's going to follow an arc both know it's going to follow an arc and it's going to follow an arc until and it's going to follow an arc until and it's going to follow an arc until atoms interfere again and it hits the atoms interfere again and it hits the atoms interfere again and it hits the ground. But while it's in freef fall ground. But while it's in freef fall ground. But while it's in freef fall experiencing gravity at its purest, what experiencing gravity at its purest, what experiencing gravity at its purest, what the Einsteinian description would say is the Einsteinian description would say is the Einsteinian description would say is it is following the natural curve in it is following the natural curve in it is following the natural curve in spaceime inscribed by the earth. So the spaceime inscribed by the earth. So the spaceime inscribed by the earth. So the earth's mass and shape curves the paths earth's mass and shape curves the paths earth's mass and shape curves the paths in space and then those curvatures tell in space and then those curvatures tell in space and then those curvatures tell you how to fall, the paths along which you how to fall, the paths along which you how to fall, the paths along which you should fall when you're falling you should fall when you're falling you should fall when you're falling freely.

freely. freely. And so the Earth has found itself on a And so the Earth has found itself on a And so the Earth has found itself on a free fall that happens to be a closed free fall that happens to be a closed free fall that happens to be a closed circle, but it's it's actually falling. circle, but it's it's actually falling. circle, but it's it's actually falling. The International Space Station uses The International Space Station uses The International Space Station uses this principle all the time. They get this principle all the time. They get this principle all the time. They get the space station up there and then they the space station up there and then they the space station up there and then they turn off the engines. Can you imagine turn off the engines. Can you imagine turn off the engines. Can you imagine how expensive it would be if they had to how expensive it would be if they had to how expensive it would be if they had to fuel that thing at all times? Right. fuel that thing at all times? Right. fuel that thing at all times? Right. They turn off the engines. They're just They turn off the engines. They're just They turn off the engines. They're just falling. Yeah, they're falling. And falling. Yeah, they're falling. And falling. Yeah, they're falling. And they're not that far up. Um there there they're not that far up. Um there there they're not that far up. Um there there are certainly people sometimes say, "Oh, are certainly people sometimes say, "Oh, are certainly people sometimes say, "Oh, they're so far away they don't feel they're so far away they don't feel they're so far away they don't feel gravity." Oh, absolutely. If you stopped gravity." Oh, absolutely. If you stopped gravity." Oh, absolutely. If you stopped the space station, it's going like the space station, it's going like the space station, it's going like 17,500 m an hour, something like that. 17,500 m an hour, something like that. 17,500 m an hour, something like that. If you were to stop that, it would drop If you were to stop that, it would drop If you were to stop that, it would drop like a stone right to the earth. So, like a stone right to the earth. So, like a stone right to the earth. So, they're in a state of constant freefall they're in a state of constant freefall they're in a state of constant freefall and they're falling along a curved path. and they're falling along a curved path. and they're falling along a curved path. And that curved path is a result of And that curved path is a result of And that curved path is a result of curving spacetime and that particular curving spacetime and that particular curving spacetime and that particular curved path's calculated in such a way curved path's calculated in such a way curved path's calculated in such a way that it curves onto itself. So, you're that it curves onto itself. So, you're that it curves onto itself. So, you're orbiting, right? So it has to be orbiting, right? So it has to be orbiting, right? So it has to be cruising at a certain speed. So once you cruising at a certain speed. So once you cruising at a certain speed. So once you get it at that cruising speed, you turn get it at that cruising speed, you turn get it at that cruising speed, you turn off the engines. But yeah, to be able to off the engines. But yeah, to be able to off the engines. But yeah, to be able to visualize at the beginning of the 20th visualize at the beginning of the 20th visualize at the beginning of the 20th century Mhm.

century Mhm. century Mhm. that not you know that free falling in that not you know that free falling in that not you know that free falling in in in curved spaceime. Mhm. Boy, the in in curved spaceime. Mhm. Boy, the in in curved spaceime. Mhm. Boy, the human mind is capable of things. I mean human mind is capable of things. I mean human mind is capable of things. I mean some of that is some of that is some of that is um constructing thought experiments that um constructing thought experiments that um constructing thought experiments that collide with our understanding of collide with our understanding of collide with our understanding of reality. Maybe in the collisions, in the reality. Maybe in the collisions, in the reality. Maybe in the collisions, in the contradictions, you try to think of contradictions, you try to think of contradictions, you try to think of extreme thought experiments that that uh extreme thought experiments that that uh extreme thought experiments that that uh exacerbate that contradiction and see exacerbate that contradiction and see exacerbate that contradiction and see like, okay, what is actually is there like, okay, what is actually is there like, okay, what is actually is there another model that can incorporate this? another model that can incorporate this? another model that can incorporate this? But to be able to do that, I mean, it's But to be able to do that, I mean, it's But to be able to do that, I mean, it's it's kind of inspiring it's kind of inspiring it's kind of inspiring because, you know, there's probably because, you know, there's probably because, you know, there's probably another general relativity out there. another general relativity out there. another general relativity out there. Yeah. in all not just in physics in all Yeah. in all not just in physics in all Yeah. in all not just in physics in all lines of work in all scientific pursuits lines of work in all scientific pursuits lines of work in all scientific pursuits there's certain theories where you're there's certain theories where you're there's certain theories where you're like okay I just explained like a big like okay I just explained like a big like okay I just explained like a big elephant in the room here that everybody elephant in the room here that everybody elephant in the room here that everybody just kind of didn't even think about just kind of didn't even think about just kind of didn't even think about there could be uh for stuff we know there could be uh for stuff we know there could be uh for stuff we know about in physics there could be stuff about in physics there could be stuff about in physics there could be stuff like that for the origin of life on like that for the origin of life on like that for the origin of life on earth earth earth everyone's like yeah okay everyone's everyone's like yeah okay everyone's everyone's like yeah okay everyone's like in polite companies like in polite companies like in polite companies Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Somehow it Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Somehow it Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Somehow it started. Mhm. Right. Nobody knows. I started. Mhm. Right. Nobody knows. I started. Mhm. Right. Nobody knows. I find it wild that that's so elusive.

find it wild that that's so elusive. find it wild that that's so elusive. Yeah. It's it's strange. And the lab Yeah. It's it's strange. And the lab Yeah. It's it's strange. And the lab became strange that it's so elusive. I became strange that it's so elusive. I became strange that it's so elusive. I think it's a general relativity thing. think it's a general relativity thing. think it's a general relativity thing. There's going to be some thing. It's There's going to be some thing. It's There's going to be some thing. It's going to involve aliens and wormholes going to involve aliens and wormholes going to involve aliens and wormholes and and dimensions that we don't quite and and dimensions that we don't quite and and dimensions that we don't quite understand or some some field that's understand or some some field that's understand or some some field that's bigger than like it's possible, maybe bigger than like it's possible, maybe bigger than like it's possible, maybe not. It's possible that it has it's a not. It's possible that it has it's a not. It's possible that it has it's a field that is different that will feel field that is different that will feel field that is different that will feel fundamentally different from chemistry fundamentally different from chemistry fundamentally different from chemistry and biology it'll be maybe through and biology it'll be maybe through and biology it'll be maybe through physics again maybe the key to the physics again maybe the key to the physics again maybe the key to the origin of life is in physics and the origin of life is in physics and the origin of life is in physics and the same there it's like a a weird neighbor same there it's like a a weird neighbor same there it's like a a weird neighbor is consciousness. Mhm. It's like all is consciousness. Mhm. It's like all is consciousness. Mhm. It's like all right a weird neighbor. Yeah. It's like right a weird neighbor. Yeah. It's like right a weird neighbor. Yeah. It's like okay so we all know that life started on okay so we all know that life started on okay so we all know that life started on Earth somehow. Mhm. Nobody knows how. Earth somehow. Mhm. Nobody knows how. Earth somehow. Mhm. Nobody knows how. Mhm. We all know that we're Mhm. We all know that we're Mhm. We all know that we're conscious. We have a subjective conscious. We have a subjective conscious. We have a subjective experience of things. Nobody understands experience of things. Nobody understands experience of things. Nobody understands that people have ideas and so on. But that people have ideas and so on. But that people have ideas and so on. But it's such a dark sort of we're entering it's such a dark sort of we're entering it's such a dark sort of we're entering a dark room where a bunch of people are a dark room where a bunch of people are a dark room where a bunch of people are whispering about like, "Hey, what's in whispering about like, "Hey, what's in whispering about like, "Hey, what's in this room?" But nobody nobody has a this room?" But nobody nobody has a this room?" But nobody nobody has a effing clue. Mhm. So, and then somebody effing clue. Mhm. So, and then somebody effing clue. Mhm. So, and then somebody comes along with a general relativity comes along with a general relativity comes along with a general relativity kind of conception where like it kind of conception where like it kind of conception where like it reconceives everything and you're like reconceives everything and you're like reconceives everything and you're like ah it's like a watershed moment. Yeah.

ah it's like a watershed moment. Yeah. ah it's like a watershed moment. Yeah. Yeah. It's there and until we're living Yeah. It's there and until we're living Yeah. It's there and until we're living in the mo we're living in a time until in the mo we're living in a time until in the mo we're living in a time until that theory comes along and uh it'll be that theory comes along and uh it'll be that theory comes along and uh it'll be obvious in retrospect, but right now obvious in retrospect, but right now obvious in retrospect, but right now we're right. Well, this it was obvious we're right. Well, this it was obvious we're right. Well, this it was obvious to no one that spacetime was curved, but to no one that spacetime was curved, but to no one that spacetime was curved, but even Newton understood something wasn't even Newton understood something wasn't even Newton understood something wasn't right. So, he knew there was something right. So, he knew there was something right. So, he knew there was something missing. And I think that's always missing. And I think that's always missing. And I think that's always fascinating when we're in a situation fascinating when we're in a situation fascinating when we're in a situation where we're pressure testing our own where we're pressure testing our own where we're pressure testing our own ideas. He did something remarkable, ideas. He did something remarkable, ideas. He did something remarkable, Newton did, with his theory of gravity. Newton did, with his theory of gravity. Newton did, with his theory of gravity. Just understanding that the same Just understanding that the same Just understanding that the same phenomena was at work with the earth phenomena was at work with the earth phenomena was at work with the earth around the sun as the apple falling from around the sun as the apple falling from around the sun as the apple falling from the tree. That's insane. That's a huge the tree. That's insane. That's a huge the tree. That's insane. That's a huge leap. Understanding that mass, inertial leap. Understanding that mass, inertial leap. Understanding that mass, inertial mass, what makes something hard to push mass, what makes something hard to push mass, what makes something hard to push around is the same thing that feels around is the same thing that feels around is the same thing that feels gravity in at least in the Newtonian gravity in at least in the Newtonian gravity in at least in the Newtonian picture in that simple way. Unbelievable picture in that simple way. Unbelievable picture in that simple way. Unbelievable leap. Absolutely genius. But he didn't leap. Absolutely genius. But he didn't leap. Absolutely genius. But he didn't like that the apple fell from the tree like that the apple fell from the tree like that the apple fell from the tree even though the earth wasn't touching even though the earth wasn't touching even though the earth wasn't touching it. Yeah, the action at a distance it. Yeah, the action at a distance it. Yeah, the action at a distance thing. The action at a distance thing.

thing. The action at a distance thing. thing. The action at a distance thing. That is weird, too. Well, but that is a That is weird, too. Well, but that is a That is weird, too. Well, but that is a really weird one. It's really weird. But really weird one. It's really weird. But really weird one. It's really weird. But see, Einstein solves that. Relativity see, Einstein solves that. Relativity see, Einstein solves that. Relativity solves that because it solves that because it solves that because it says the Earth created the curve in says the Earth created the curve in says the Earth created the curve in space. The apple wants to fall freely space. The apple wants to fall freely space. The apple wants to fall freely along it. The problem is the trees in along it. The problem is the trees in along it. The problem is the trees in the way. The tree is the problem. The the way. The tree is the problem. The the way. The tree is the problem. The tree is actually accelerating the apple. tree is actually accelerating the apple. tree is actually accelerating the apple. It's keeping it away from its natural It's keeping it away from its natural It's keeping it away from its natural state of weightlessness in a state of weightlessness in a state of weightlessness in a gravitational field. And as soon as the gravitational field. And as soon as the gravitational field. And as soon as the tree lets go of it, the apple will tree lets go of it, the apple will tree lets go of it, the apple will simply fall along the curve that exists. simply fall along the curve that exists. simply fall along the curve that exists. I would I would love it if somebody went I would I would love it if somebody went I would I would love it if somebody went back to Newton's time and told him all back to Newton's time and told him all back to Newton's time and told him all this. Probably some like some like this. Probably some like some like this. Probably some like some like hippie would be like it's a gravity is hippie would be like it's a gravity is hippie would be like it's a gravity is just the curvature in space time, man. I just the curvature in space time, man. I just the curvature in space time, man. I wonder if he would be able to I don't wonder if he would be able to I don't wonder if he would be able to I don't think there's you know every idea has think there's you know every idea has think there's you know every idea has its time. He might not he might not even its time. He might not he might not even its time. He might not he might not even be able to load that in. be able to load that in. be able to load that in. I I mean that sometimes even the I I mean that sometimes even the I I mean that sometimes even the greatest geniuses I mean you can't like greatest geniuses I mean you can't like greatest geniuses I mean you can't like you need too out of context. You need to you need too out of context. You need to you need too out of context. You need to be standing on the shoulders of giants be standing on the shoulders of giants be standing on the shoulders of giants and on the shoulders of those giants and and on the shoulders of those giants and and on the shoulders of those giants and so on. I heard that Newton used that as so on. I heard that Newton used that as so on. I heard that Newton used that as an unkind remark to his competitor Hook.

an unkind remark to his competitor Hook. an unkind remark to his competitor Hook. Oh no, the people talk even back Oh no, the people talk even back Oh no, the people talk even back then. Trash talking. then. Trash talking. then. Trash talking. This is one of the hilarious things This is one of the hilarious things This is one of the hilarious things about humans in general, but scientists about humans in general, but scientists about humans in general, but scientists too, like these huge minds. There's too, like these huge minds. There's too, like these huge minds. There's these moments in history where you'll these moments in history where you'll these moments in history where you'll see this in this in universities, but see this in this in universities, but see this in this in universities, but everywhere else too. Like you have everywhere else too. Like you have everywhere else too. Like you have gigantic minds obviously also coupled gigantic minds obviously also coupled gigantic minds obviously also coupled with everybody has an ego and like with everybody has an ego and like with everybody has an ego and like sometimes it's just the same soap opera sometimes it's just the same soap opera sometimes it's just the same soap opera that played out amongst humans that played out amongst humans that played out amongst humans everywhere else and so you're thinking everywhere else and so you're thinking everywhere else and so you're thinking about the biggest cosmological objects about the biggest cosmological objects about the biggest cosmological objects and forces and ideas and you're still and forces and ideas and you're still and forces and ideas and you're still like jealous and right I know your your like jealous and right I know your your like jealous and right I know your your office is bigger than my office. I know office is bigger than my office. I know office is bigger than my office. I know this chair this or or maybe uh you got this chair this or or maybe uh you got this chair this or or maybe uh you got married to this person that I was always married to this person that I was always married to this person that I was always in love with the betrayal of something. in love with the betrayal of something. in love with the betrayal of something. The one woman in the department. Yeah. The one woman in the department. Yeah. The one woman in the department. Yeah. The one woman in the department. Yeah. The one woman in the department. Yeah. The one woman in the department. Yeah. And it's just I mean but that is also And it's just I mean but that is also And it's just I mean but that is also the fuel of innovation that jealousy the fuel of innovation that jealousy the fuel of innovation that jealousy that tension that's well you know the that tension that's well you know the that tension that's well you know the expression I'm sure um the battles are expression I'm sure um the battles are expression I'm sure um the battles are so bitter in academia because the stakes so bitter in academia because the stakes so bitter in academia because the stakes are so low. That's a beautiful way to are so low. That's a beautiful way to are so low. That's a beautiful way to phrase it. But also like we shouldn't phrase it. But also like we shouldn't phrase it. But also like we shouldn't forget I mean that I love seeing that forget I mean that I love seeing that forget I mean that I love seeing that even in academia because it's humanity even in academia because it's humanity even in academia because it's humanity the silliness it's there is a degree to the silliness it's there is a degree to the silliness it's there is a degree to academia where the reason you're able to academia where the reason you're able to academia where the reason you're able to think about some of these grand ideas is think about some of these grand ideas is think about some of these grand ideas is because you still allow yourself to be

because you still allow yourself to be because you still allow yourself to be childlike. Oh yeah, there's a childlike childlike. Oh yeah, there's a childlike childlike. Oh yeah, there's a childlike nature to be ask questions but children nature to be ask questions but children nature to be ask questions but children can also be like children children. So can also be like children children. So can also be like children children. So like you don't I think when um in in in like you don't I think when um in in in like you don't I think when um in in in a corporate context and maybe the world a corporate context and maybe the world a corporate context and maybe the world gets forces you to behave you're gets forces you to behave you're gets forces you to behave you're supposed to be a certain kind of way supposed to be a certain kind of way supposed to be a certain kind of way there's some aspects and it's a really there's some aspects and it's a really there's some aspects and it's a really beautiful aspect to preserve and to beautiful aspect to preserve and to beautiful aspect to preserve and to celebrate in academia is like you're celebrate in academia is like you're celebrate in academia is like you're just allowed to be childlike in your just allowed to be childlike in your just allowed to be childlike in your curiosity and your exploration you're curiosity and your exploration you're curiosity and your exploration you're just exploring asking the biggest just exploring asking the biggest just exploring asking the biggest questions the best scientists I know questions the best scientists I know questions the best scientists I know often ask the simplest questions often ask the simplest questions often ask the simplest questions questions. Um they're they're really um questions. Um they're they're really um questions. Um they're they're really um first of all there's probably some first of all there's probably some first of all there's probably some confidence there, but also they're never confidence there, but also they're never confidence there, but also they're never going to lie to themselves that they going to lie to themselves that they going to lie to themselves that they understand something that they don't understand something that they don't understand something that they don't understand. So even this idea that understand. So even this idea that understand. So even this idea that Newton didn't understand the apple Newton didn't understand the apple Newton didn't understand the apple falling from the tree, he had he lived falling from the tree, he had he lived falling from the tree, he had he lived another couple hundred of years, he another couple hundred of years, he another couple hundred of years, he would have invented relativity because would have invented relativity because would have invented relativity because he never would have lied to himself that he never would have lied to himself that he never would have lied to himself that he understood it. he would have kept he understood it. he would have kept he understood it. he would have kept asking this very simple question. Um, asking this very simple question. Um, asking this very simple question. Um, and uh, I think that there is this and uh, I think that there is this and uh, I think that there is this childlike beauty to that. Absolutely.

childlike beauty to that. Absolutely. childlike beauty to that. Absolutely. Yeah. Just some of the topics, I don't Yeah. Just some of the topics, I don't Yeah. Just some of the topics, I don't know why I'm stuck to those two topics know why I'm stuck to those two topics know why I'm stuck to those two topics of origin of life and consciousness, but of origin of life and consciousness, but of origin of life and consciousness, but there's I'll talk about this. Some of there's I'll talk about this. Some of there's I'll talk about this. Some of the most brilliant people I know are the most brilliant people I know are the most brilliant people I know are stuck just like with Newton and stuck just like with Newton and stuck just like with Newton and Einstein. They're stuck on that. This Einstein. They're stuck on that. This Einstein. They're stuck on that. This doesn't make sense. I know a bunch of doesn't make sense. I know a bunch of doesn't make sense. I know a bunch of brilliant biologists, physicists, brilliant biologists, physicists, brilliant biologists, physicists, chemists, they're thinking about the chemists, they're thinking about the chemists, they're thinking about the origin of life. They're like, "This origin of life. They're like, "This origin of life. They're like, "This doesn't I know how evolution works. I doesn't I know how evolution works. I doesn't I know how evolution works. I know how the biological systems work. know how the biological systems work. know how the biological systems work. How genetic information propagates, but How genetic information propagates, but How genetic information propagates, but like this this part, the singularity at like this this part, the singularity at like this this part, the singularity at the beginning doesn't make sense. We the beginning doesn't make sense. We the beginning doesn't make sense. We don't understand. We can't create in the don't understand. We can't create in the don't understand. We can't create in the lab. They're bothered come every single lab. They're bothered come every single lab. They're bothered come every single day. They're bothered by it. And that day. They're bothered by it. And that day. They're bothered by it. And that being bothered by that tension, by that being bothered by that tension, by that being bothered by that tension, by that gap in knowledge is uh yeah, that's the gap in knowledge is uh yeah, that's the gap in knowledge is uh yeah, that's the catalyst. That's the fuel catalyst for catalyst. That's the fuel catalyst for catalyst. That's the fuel catalyst for the discovery. But the discovery yeah the discovery. But the discovery yeah the discovery. But the discovery yeah absolutely the discovery is going to absolutely the discovery is going to absolutely the discovery is going to come because somebody couldn't sleep at come because somebody couldn't sleep at come because somebody couldn't sleep at night and couldn't rest. night and couldn't rest. night and couldn't rest. So in that way I think black holes are a So in that way I think black holes are a So in that way I think black holes are a kind of portal into some of the biggest kind of portal into some of the biggest kind of portal into some of the biggest mysteries of our universe. So it is a mysteries of our universe. So it is a mysteries of our universe. So it is a it's a good terrain on which to explore it's a good terrain on which to explore it's a good terrain on which to explore these ideas. So can can you speak about these ideas. So can can you speak about these ideas. So can can you speak about some of the mysteries that the black some of the mysteries that the black some of the mysteries that the black holes present us with? Yeah, I think holes present us with? Yeah, I think holes present us with? Yeah, I think it's important to separate the idea that it's important to separate the idea that it's important to separate the idea that there are these astrophysical states there are these astrophysical states there are these astrophysical states that become black holes that become black holes that become black holes um from being synonymous with black um from being synonymous with black um from being synonymous with black holes because black holes are kind of holes because black holes are kind of holes because black holes are kind of this this larger this this larger this this larger um idea and uh they might have been made um idea and uh they might have been made um idea and uh they might have been made primordally when the big bang happened

primordally when the big bang happened primordally when the big bang happened and they're there's something flawless and they're there's something flawless and they're there's something flawless about black holes that makes them about black holes that makes them about black holes that makes them fundamental. fundamental. fundamental. um unlike anything else. So, uh they're um unlike anything else. So, uh they're um unlike anything else. So, uh they're flawless in the sense that you can flawless in the sense that you can flawless in the sense that you can completely understand a black hole by completely understand a black hole by completely understand a black hole by looking at just its charge, electric looking at just its charge, electric looking at just its charge, electric charge, its mass, and its spin. And charge, its mass, and its spin. And charge, its mass, and its spin. And every black hole with that charge, mass, every black hole with that charge, mass, every black hole with that charge, mass, and spin is identical to every other and spin is identical to every other and spin is identical to every other black hole. You can't be like, "Oh, that black hole. You can't be like, "Oh, that black hole. You can't be like, "Oh, that one's mine. I recognize it. It has this one's mine. I recognize it. It has this one's mine. I recognize it. It has this little feature, and that's how I know little feature, and that's how I know little feature, and that's how I know it's mine." They're featureless. They it's mine." They're featureless. They it's mine." They're featureless. They you you try to put uh Mount Everest on a you you try to put uh Mount Everest on a you you try to put uh Mount Everest on a black hole and it will shake it off in black hole and it will shake it off in black hole and it will shake it off in these gravitational waves. It will these gravitational waves. It will these gravitational waves. It will radiate away this imperfection until it radiate away this imperfection until it radiate away this imperfection until it settles down to be a perfect black hole settles down to be a perfect black hole settles down to be a perfect black hole again. So there's something about them again. So there's something about them again. So there's something about them that is unlike and another reason why I that is unlike and another reason why I that is unlike and another reason why I don't like to call them objects in a don't like to call them objects in a don't like to call them objects in a traditional sense unlike anything else traditional sense unlike anything else traditional sense unlike anything else in the universe that's in the universe that's in the universe that's macroscopic. It's kind of a little bit macroscopic. It's kind of a little bit macroscopic. It's kind of a little bit more like a fundamental particle. So, an more like a fundamental particle. So, an more like a fundamental particle. So, an electron is described by a certain short electron is described by a certain short electron is described by a certain short list of properties. Charge, mass, spin, list of properties. Charge, mass, spin, list of properties. Charge, mass, spin, maybe some other quantum numbers. That's maybe some other quantum numbers. That's maybe some other quantum numbers. That's what it means to be an electron. There's what it means to be an electron. There's what it means to be an electron. There's no electron that's a little bit no electron that's a little bit no electron that's a little bit different. You can't recognize your different. You can't recognize your different. You can't recognize your electron. They're all identical in that electron. They're all identical in that electron. They're all identical in that sense. Um, and and so in some very sense. Um, and and so in some very sense. Um, and and so in some very abstract way, black holes share abstract way, black holes share abstract way, black holes share something in common with microscopic something in common with microscopic something in common with microscopic fundamental particles. And so what they

fundamental particles. And so what they fundamental particles. And so what they tell us about the fundamental laws of tell us about the fundamental laws of tell us about the fundamental laws of physics um can be very physics um can be very physics um can be very profound and it's profound and it's profound and it's why even theoretical physicists, why even theoretical physicists, why even theoretical physicists, mathematical physicists, not just mathematical physicists, not just mathematical physicists, not just astronomers who use telescopes, they astronomers who use telescopes, they astronomers who use telescopes, they rely on the black hole as a terrain to rely on the black hole as a terrain to rely on the black hole as a terrain to perform their thought perform their thought perform their thought experiments. And and it's because experiments. And and it's because experiments. And and it's because there's something fundamental about there's something fundamental about there's something fundamental about them. Yeah. General relativity means them. Yeah. General relativity means them. Yeah. General relativity means quantum mechanics means singularity quantum mechanics means singularity quantum mechanics means singularity and sadly heartbreakingly so it's out of and sadly heartbreakingly so it's out of and sadly heartbreakingly so it's out of reach for experiment at this moment but reach for experiment at this moment but reach for experiment at this moment but but within reach for theoretical it's in but within reach for theoretical it's in but within reach for theoretical it's in reach for for thought experiments for reach for for thought experiments for reach for for thought experiments for thought experiments which are quite thought experiments which are quite thought experiments which are quite beautiful well on that topic I have to beautiful well on that topic I have to beautiful well on that topic I have to ask you about the paradox the ask you about the paradox the ask you about the paradox the information paradox of black holes what information paradox of black holes what information paradox of black holes what is it so this is what catapulted is it so this is what catapulted is it so this is what catapulted Hawkings fame Hawkings fame Hawkings fame when he was a young researcher, he was when he was a young researcher, he was when he was a young researcher, he was thinking about black holes and wanted to thinking about black holes and wanted to thinking about black holes and wanted to just add a little smidge of quantum just add a little smidge of quantum just add a little smidge of quantum mechanics, just a little smidge, you mechanics, just a little smidge, you mechanics, just a little smidge, you know, wasn't going for full-blown know, wasn't going for full-blown know, wasn't going for full-blown quantum gravity, but kind of just quantum gravity, but kind of just quantum gravity, but kind of just asking, well, what if I allowed this asking, well, what if I allowed this asking, well, what if I allowed this nothing, this vacuum, this empty space nothing, this vacuum, this empty space nothing, this vacuum, this empty space around the event horizon, the star is around the event horizon, the star is around the event horizon, the star is gone, there's nothing there. What if I gone, there's nothing there. What if I gone, there's nothing there. What if I allowed it to possess sort of ordinary allowed it to possess sort of ordinary allowed it to possess sort of ordinary quantum properties just a little tiny quantum properties just a little tiny quantum properties just a little tiny bit you know nothing bit you know nothing bit you know nothing dramatic don't go crazy you know and one

dramatic don't go crazy you know and one dramatic don't go crazy you know and one of the properties of the vacuum that um of the properties of the vacuum that um of the properties of the vacuum that um is intriguing is this idea that you can is intriguing is this idea that you can is intriguing is this idea that you can never say the vacuum is actually never say the vacuum is actually never say the vacuum is actually completely empty we talked about completely empty we talked about completely empty we talked about Heisenberg but you know the Heisenberg Heisenberg but you know the Heisenberg Heisenberg but you know the Heisenberg uncertainty principle really kicked off uncertainty principle really kicked off uncertainty principle really kicked off a lot of quantum mechanical thinking it a lot of quantum mechanical thinking it a lot of quantum mechanical thinking it says that you can never exactly know a says that you can never exactly know a says that you can never exactly know a particle's position simultaneously ly particle's position simultaneously ly particle's position simultaneously ly with its motion, with its momentum. You with its motion, with its momentum. You with its motion, with its momentum. You can know one or the other pretty can know one or the other pretty can know one or the other pretty precisely, but not both precisely. And precisely, but not both precisely. And precisely, but not both precisely. And the uncertainty isn't a lack of ability the uncertainty isn't a lack of ability the uncertainty isn't a lack of ability that will technologically overcome. It's that will technologically overcome. It's that will technologically overcome. It's foundational. So that there's in some foundational. So that there's in some foundational. So that there's in some sense when it's in a precise location, sense when it's in a precise location, sense when it's in a precise location, it is fundamentally no longer in a it is fundamentally no longer in a it is fundamentally no longer in a precise motion. And that uncertainty precise motion. And that uncertainty precise motion. And that uncertainty principle means I can't precisely say a principle means I can't precisely say a principle means I can't precisely say a particle is exactly here, but it also particle is exactly here, but it also particle is exactly here, but it also means I can't say it's not. Okay? And so means I can't say it's not. Okay? And so means I can't say it's not. Okay? And so it led to this idea that what do I mean it led to this idea that what do I mean it led to this idea that what do I mean by a vacuum? Because I can't 100% by a vacuum? Because I can't 100% by a vacuum? Because I can't 100% precisely know. In fact, there's not precisely know. In fact, there's not precisely know. In fact, there's not really meaningful to say that there's really meaningful to say that there's really meaningful to say that there's zero particles here. And so what you can zero particles here. And so what you can zero particles here. And so what you can say, however, is you can say, well, say, however, is you can say, well, say, however, is you can say, well, maybe particles kind of froth around in maybe particles kind of froth around in maybe particles kind of froth around in this seething quantum sea of the vacuum.

this seething quantum sea of the vacuum. this seething quantum sea of the vacuum. Maybe two particles come into existence Maybe two particles come into existence Maybe two particles come into existence and they're entangled in such a way that and they're entangled in such a way that and they're entangled in such a way that they cancel out each other's properties. they cancel out each other's properties. they cancel out each other's properties. So they they have the properties of the So they they have the properties of the So they they have the properties of the vacuum, you know, they don't they don't vacuum, you know, they don't they don't vacuum, you know, they don't they don't destroy the kind of properties of the destroy the kind of properties of the destroy the kind of properties of the vacuum because they cancel out each vacuum because they cancel out each vacuum because they cancel out each other's spin, maybe each other's charge, other's spin, maybe each other's charge, other's spin, maybe each other's charge, maybe things like that, but they kind of maybe things like that, but they kind of maybe things like that, but they kind of froth around. They come, they go, they froth around. They come, they go, they froth around. They come, they go, they come, they go and that's what we really come, they go and that's what we really come, they go and that's what we really think is the best that empty space can think is the best that empty space can think is the best that empty space can do in a quantum mechanical universe. do in a quantum mechanical universe. do in a quantum mechanical universe. Now, if you add an event horizon, which Now, if you add an event horizon, which Now, if you add an event horizon, which as we said is really fundamentally what as we said is really fundamentally what as we said is really fundamentally what a black hole is, that's the most a black hole is, that's the most a black hole is, that's the most important feature of a black hole. The important feature of a black hole. The important feature of a black hole. The event horizon, if the particles are event horizon, if the particles are event horizon, if the particles are created slightly on either side of that created slightly on either side of that created slightly on either side of that event horizon, now you have a real event horizon, now you have a real event horizon, now you have a real problem. Okay? Now, the pair has been problem. Okay? Now, the pair has been problem. Okay? Now, the pair has been separated by this event horizon. Now, separated by this event horizon. Now, separated by this event horizon. Now, they can both fall in. That's okay. But they can both fall in. That's okay. But they can both fall in. That's okay. But if one falls in and the other doesn't, if one falls in and the other doesn't, if one falls in and the other doesn't, it's stuck. It can't go back into the it's stuck. It can't go back into the it's stuck. It can't go back into the vacuum because now it has a charge or it vacuum because now it has a charge or it vacuum because now it has a charge or it has a spin or it has something. It's no has a spin or it has something. It's no has a spin or it has something. It's no longer the property of that vacuum it longer the property of that vacuum it longer the property of that vacuum it came from. It needs its pair to came from. It needs its pair to came from. It needs its pair to disappear. Now it's stuck. It exists.

disappear. Now it's stuck. It exists. disappear. Now it's stuck. It exists. It's like you've made it real. So in a It's like you've made it real. So in a It's like you've made it real. So in a sense, the black hole steals one of sense, the black hole steals one of sense, the black hole steals one of these virtual particles and forces the these virtual particles and forces the these virtual particles and forces the other to live. other to live. other to live. And if it is, it'll escape radiate out And if it is, it'll escape radiate out And if it is, it'll escape radiate out to infinity and look like to an observer to infinity and look like to an observer to infinity and look like to an observer far away that the black hole is actually far away that the black hole is actually far away that the black hole is actually radiated a particle. Now the particle radiated a particle. Now the particle radiated a particle. Now the particle did not emanate from inside. It came did not emanate from inside. It came did not emanate from inside. It came from the vacuum. It stole it from empty from the vacuum. It stole it from empty from the vacuum. It stole it from empty space from the nothingness that is the space from the nothingness that is the space from the nothingness that is the black hole. Now the reason why this is black hole. Now the reason why this is black hole. Now the reason why this is very tricky is because in the process very tricky is because in the process very tricky is because in the process because of this separation on either because of this separation on either because of this separation on either side of the event horizon. The particle side of the event horizon. The particle side of the event horizon. The particle it absorbs it has to do with the it absorbs it has to do with the it absorbs it has to do with the switching of space and time that we switching of space and time that we switching of space and time that we talked about. But the particle it talked about. But the particle it talked about. But the particle it absorbs well from the outside you might absorbs well from the outside you might absorbs well from the outside you might say oh it had negative momentum. It was say oh it had negative momentum. It was say oh it had negative momentum. It was falling in from the inside you say well falling in from the inside you say well falling in from the inside you say well this is actually motion and time. This this is actually motion and time. This this is actually motion and time. This is energy. It has negative energy and it is energy. It has negative energy and it is energy. It has negative energy and it is absorbs negative energy. Its mass is absorbs negative energy. Its mass is absorbs negative energy. Its mass goes down. the black hole gets a little goes down. the black hole gets a little goes down. the black hole gets a little lighter and as it continues to do this lighter and as it continues to do this lighter and as it continues to do this the black hole really begins to the black hole really begins to the black hole really begins to evaporate. It does more than just evaporate. It does more than just evaporate. It does more than just radiate. It evaporates radiate. It evaporates radiate. It evaporates away. And um it's intriguing because away. And um it's intriguing because away. And um it's intriguing because Hawking said, "Look, this is going to Hawking said, "Look, this is going to Hawking said, "Look, this is going to look thermal, meaning featureless. It's look thermal, meaning featureless. It's look thermal, meaning featureless. It's going to have going to have going to have no information in it. It's going to be no information in it. It's going to be no information in it. It's going to be the most informationless possibility you the most informationless possibility you the most informationless possibility you could possibly come up with when you're could possibly come up with when you're could possibly come up with when you're radiating particles. It's just going to radiating particles. It's just going to radiating particles. It's just going to look like a thermal distribution of look like a thermal distribution of look like a thermal distribution of particles, like a hot body. And the

particles, like a hot body. And the particles, like a hot body. And the temperature is going to only tell you temperature is going to only tell you temperature is going to only tell you about the mass, which you could tell about the mass, which you could tell about the mass, which you could tell from outside the black hole anyway. You from outside the black hole anyway. You from outside the black hole anyway. You know the mass of the black hole from the know the mass of the black hole from the know the mass of the black hole from the outside. So, it's not telling you outside. So, it's not telling you outside. So, it's not telling you anything about the black hole. It's got anything about the black hole. It's got anything about the black hole. It's got no information about the black hole. no information about the black hole. no information about the black hole. Now, you have a real problem. And when Now, you have a real problem. And when Now, you have a real problem. And when he first said it, a lot of people he first said it, a lot of people he first said it, a lot of people describe that not everyone understood describe that not everyone understood describe that not everyone understood how really naughty he was how really naughty he was how really naughty he was being. He did. Um, but some people who being. He did. Um, but some people who being. He did. Um, but some people who love quantum mechanics were really love quantum mechanics were really love quantum mechanics were really annoyed. Okay, people like Lenny Suskin, annoyed. Okay, people like Lenny Suskin, annoyed. Okay, people like Lenny Suskin, Jerard, Nobel Prize winner, they were Jerard, Nobel Prize winner, they were Jerard, Nobel Prize winner, they were mad because it suggested something was mad because it suggested something was mad because it suggested something was fundamentally wrong with quantum fundamentally wrong with quantum fundamentally wrong with quantum mechanics if it was right. Um, and the mechanics if it was right. Um, and the mechanics if it was right. Um, and the reason why it says there's something reason why it says there's something reason why it says there's something fundamentally wrong with quantum fundamentally wrong with quantum fundamentally wrong with quantum mechanics is because quantum mechanics mechanics is because quantum mechanics mechanics is because quantum mechanics does not allow this. It does not allow does not allow this. It does not allow does not allow this. It does not allow quantum information to simply evaporate quantum information to simply evaporate quantum information to simply evaporate away and poof out of the universe and away and poof out of the universe and away and poof out of the universe and cease to exist. It's a violation of cease to exist. It's a violation of cease to exist. It's a violation of something called unitarity. But really something called unitarity. But really something called unitarity. But really the idea is it's the loss of quantum the idea is it's the loss of quantum the idea is it's the loss of quantum information that's intolerable. Quantum information that's intolerable. Quantum information that's intolerable. Quantum mechanics was built to preserve mechanics was built to preserve mechanics was built to preserve information. It's one of the sacred information. It's one of the sacred information. It's one of the sacred principles as sacred as conservation of principles as sacred as conservation of principles as sacred as conservation of energy. In this example, more sacred energy. In this example, more sacred energy. In this example, more sacred because you can violate conservation of because you can violate conservation of because you can violate conservation of energy with Heisenberg's uncertainty energy with Heisenberg's uncertainty energy with Heisenberg's uncertainty principle a little tiny bit.

principle a little tiny bit. principle a little tiny bit. um but so sacred that it created what um but so sacred that it created what um but so sacred that it created what became um coined as the black hole wars became um coined as the black hole wars became um coined as the black hole wars where people were saying where people were saying where people were saying look general relativity is wrong look general relativity is wrong look general relativity is wrong something's wrong with our thinking something's wrong with our thinking something's wrong with our thinking about the event horizon or quantum about the event horizon or quantum about the event horizon or quantum mechanics isn't what we think it is but mechanics isn't what we think it is but mechanics isn't what we think it is but the two are not getting along anymore the two are not getting along anymore the two are not getting along anymore and just to tell you how dramatic it is and just to tell you how dramatic it is and just to tell you how dramatic it is so the temperature goes down with the so the temperature goes down with the so the temperature goes down with the mass of the black hole heavier a black mass of the black hole heavier a black mass of the black hole heavier a black hole the cooler it is so we don't see hole the cooler it is so we don't see hole the cooler it is so we don't see Black holes evaporate, they're way too Black holes evaporate, they're way too Black holes evaporate, they're way too big. But as they get smaller and big. But as they get smaller and big. But as they get smaller and smaller, they get hotter and hotter. So smaller, they get hotter and hotter. So smaller, they get hotter and hotter. So as the black hole nears the end of this as the black hole nears the end of this as the black hole nears the end of this cycle of evaporating away, it takes a cycle of evaporating away, it takes a cycle of evaporating away, it takes a very long time, much longer than the age very long time, much longer than the age very long time, much longer than the age of the universe. Um it will be as though of the universe. Um it will be as though of the universe. Um it will be as though the curtain, the event horizon's yanked the curtain, the event horizon's yanked the curtain, the event horizon's yanked up, like it'll literally explode away. up, like it'll literally explode away. up, like it'll literally explode away. Just boom. And the event horizon in Just boom. And the event horizon in Just boom. And the event horizon in principle would be yanked up. principle would be yanked up. principle would be yanked up. Everything's gone. all that information Everything's gone. all that information Everything's gone. all that information that went into the black hole, all that that went into the black hole, all that that went into the black hole, all that sacred quantum stuff gone. Poof. Okay?

sacred quantum stuff gone. Poof. Okay? sacred quantum stuff gone. Poof. Okay? Because it's not in the radiation Because it's not in the radiation Because it's not in the radiation because the radiation has no because the radiation has no because the radiation has no information. And um and information. And um and information. And um and so it was an incredibly productive so it was an incredibly productive so it was an incredibly productive debate because in it are the signs of debate because in it are the signs of debate because in it are the signs of what will make gravity and quantum what will make gravity and quantum what will make gravity and quantum mechanics play nice together. You know, mechanics play nice together. You know, mechanics play nice together. You know, some quantum theory of gravity. Um, some quantum theory of gravity. Um, some quantum theory of gravity. Um, whatever these clues are, and they're whatever these clues are, and they're whatever these clues are, and they're hard to assemble. Uh, if you want a hard to assemble. Uh, if you want a hard to assemble. Uh, if you want a quantum gravity theory, it has to quantum gravity theory, it has to quantum gravity theory, it has to correctly predict the temperature of a correctly predict the temperature of a correctly predict the temperature of a black hole, the entropy of a black hole. black hole, the entropy of a black hole. black hole, the entropy of a black hole. It has to have all of these correct It has to have all of these correct It has to have all of these correct features. The black hole is the place on features. The black hole is the place on features. The black hole is the place on which we can test quantum gravity, but which we can test quantum gravity, but which we can test quantum gravity, but it still has not been resolved. It has it still has not been resolved. It has it still has not been resolved. It has not been fully resolved. I looked up all not been fully resolved. I looked up all not been fully resolved. I looked up all the different ideas for the resolution. the different ideas for the resolution. the different ideas for the resolution. So, there's the information loss, which So, there's the information loss, which So, there's the information loss, which is what you referred to. It's perhaps is what you referred to. It's perhaps is what you referred to. It's perhaps the simplest yet most radical resolution the simplest yet most radical resolution the simplest yet most radical resolution is that information is truly lost. This is that information is truly lost. This is that information is truly lost. This would mean quantum mechanics as we would mean quantum mechanics as we would mean quantum mechanics as we currently understand it specifically currently understand it specifically currently understand it specifically unitarity is incomplete or incorrect unitarity is incomplete or incorrect unitarity is incomplete or incorrect under these extreme gravitational under these extreme gravitational under these extreme gravitational conditions. I'm unhappy with that. I'm I conditions. I'm unhappy with that. I'm I conditions. I'm unhappy with that. I'm I would not be happy with information would not be happy with information would not be happy with information loss. I love that it's telling us that loss. I love that it's telling us that loss. I love that it's telling us that there's this crisis cuz I do think it's there's this crisis cuz I do think it's there's this crisis cuz I do think it's giving us the clues and we have to take giving us the clues and we have to take giving us the clues and we have to take them seriously. For you the the gut is them seriously. For you the the gut is them seriously. For you the the gut is like unitarity is going to be preserved like unitarity is going to be preserved like unitarity is going to be preserved preserved. So quantum mechanics is we preserved. So quantum mechanics is we preserved. So quantum mechanics is we have to come to the rescue as Lenny have to come to the rescue as Lenny have to come to the rescue as Lenny Suskin in his book black hole war says Suskin in his book black hole war says Suskin in his book black hole war says uh his subtitle is um my battle with uh his subtitle is um my battle with uh his subtitle is um my battle with Stephen Hawking to make the world safe Stephen Hawking to make the world safe Stephen Hawking to make the world safe for quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics for quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics for quantum mechanics. Quantum mechanics I love something to that effect. So then

I love something to that effect. So then I love something to that effect. So then from string theory one of the from string theory one of the from string theory one of the resolutions is called fuzzballs. I love resolutions is called fuzzballs. I love resolutions is called fuzzballs. I love physicists so much. Originating from physicists so much. Originating from physicists so much. Originating from string the theory this proposal suggests string the theory this proposal suggests string the theory this proposal suggests that black holes aren't singularity that black holes aren't singularity that black holes aren't singularity surrounded by empty space and an event surrounded by empty space and an event surrounded by empty space and an event horizon. Instead, they are horizonless, horizon. Instead, they are horizonless, horizon. Instead, they are horizonless, complex, tangled objects, aka fuzzballs, complex, tangled objects, aka fuzzballs, complex, tangled objects, aka fuzzballs, made of strings and brains roughly the made of strings and brains roughly the made of strings and brains roughly the size of the wouldbe event horizon. size of the wouldbe event horizon. size of the wouldbe event horizon. There's no single point of infinite There's no single point of infinite There's no single point of infinite density and no true horizon to cross. In density and no true horizon to cross. In density and no true horizon to cross. In some sense, it says there's no interior some sense, it says there's no interior some sense, it says there's no interior to the black hole. Nothing ever crosses. to the black hole. Nothing ever crosses. to the black hole. Nothing ever crosses. So, I gave you this very nice story that So, I gave you this very nice story that So, I gave you this very nice story that there's no drama. Sometimes that's how there's no drama. Sometimes that's how there's no drama. Sometimes that's how it's described at the event horizon and it's described at the event horizon and it's described at the event horizon and you fall through and there's nothing you fall through and there's nothing you fall through and there's nothing there. This other idea says, well, hold there. This other idea says, well, hold there. This other idea says, well, hold on a second. If it's really strings, as on a second. If it's really strings, as on a second. If it's really strings, as I get close to this magnifying quality I get close to this magnifying quality I get close to this magnifying quality and the slowing time down near the event and the slowing time down near the event and the slowing time down near the event horizon, it is as though I put a horizon, it is as though I put a horizon, it is as though I put a magnifying glass on things and now the magnifying glass on things and now the magnifying glass on things and now the strings aren't so microscopic. They kind strings aren't so microscopic. They kind strings aren't so microscopic. They kind of shmear around and then they get of shmear around and then they get of shmear around and then they get caught like a tangle around the event caught like a tangle around the event caught like a tangle around the event horizon and they just actually never horizon and they just actually never horizon and they just actually never fall through. Um, I don't think that fall through. Um, I don't think that fall through. Um, I don't think that either, but it was interesting. So, it's either, but it was interesting. So, it's either, but it was interesting. So, it's just adding a very large number of extra just adding a very large number of extra just adding a very large number of extra complex degrees of freedom. Yeah, there complex degrees of freedom. Yeah, there complex degrees of freedom. Yeah, there are no teeny tiny marbles to fall are no teeny tiny marbles to fall are no teeny tiny marbles to fall through, but it's similar to what we through, but it's similar to what we through, but it's similar to what we already have with quantum mechanics.

already have with quantum mechanics. already have with quantum mechanics. It's just giving a It's just giving a It's just giving a really saying the interior is just not really saying the interior is just not really saying the interior is just not there ever. Nothing falls in. So, the there ever. Nothing falls in. So, the there ever. Nothing falls in. So, the information gets out cuz it never went information gets out cuz it never went information gets out cuz it never went in in the first place. Oh, interesting. in in the first place. Oh, interesting. in in the first place. Oh, interesting. So, there is a strong statement there. A So, there is a strong statement there. A So, there is a strong statement there. A strong statement there. Yeah. Okay. Soft strong statement there. Yeah. Okay. Soft strong statement there. Yeah. Okay. Soft hair challenges the classical no hair hair challenges the classical no hair hair challenges the classical no hair theorem by suggesting that black holes theorem by suggesting that black holes theorem by suggesting that black holes do possess subtle quantum quote hair. do possess subtle quantum quote hair. do possess subtle quantum quote hair. This isn't classical hairike charge, but This isn't classical hairike charge, but This isn't classical hairike charge, but very low energy quantum very low energy quantum very low energy quantum excitations, soft gravitons or photons excitations, soft gravitons or photons excitations, soft gravitons or photons at the event horizon that can store at the event horizon that can store at the event horizon that can store information about what fell in. Worth information about what fell in. Worth information about what fell in. Worth trying, but I also don't think that trying, but I also don't think that trying, but I also don't think that that's the case. So the no hair theorems that's the case. So the no hair theorems that's the case. So the no hair theorems are um are um are um formal proofs that the black hole is formal proofs that the black hole is formal proofs that the black hole is this featureless perfect fundamental this featureless perfect fundamental this featureless perfect fundamental particle that we talked about that all particle that we talked about that all particle that we talked about that all you can ever tell about the black hole you can ever tell about the black hole you can ever tell about the black hole is its electrical charge, its mass and is its electrical charge, its mass and is its electrical charge, its mass and its spin and that it cannot possess its spin and that it cannot possess its spin and that it cannot possess other features. It has no hair is one other features. It has no hair is one other features. It has no hair is one way of describing it and that those are way of describing it and that those are way of describing it and that those are proven mathematical proofs in the proven mathematical proofs in the proven mathematical proofs in the context of general relativity. So the context of general relativity. So the context of general relativity. So the idea is well therefore I can know idea is well therefore I can know idea is well therefore I can know nothing about what goes into the black nothing about what goes into the black nothing about what goes into the black hole. So the information is lost. But if hole. So the information is lost. But if hole. So the information is lost. But if they could have hair I could say that's they could have hair I could say that's they could have hair I could say that's my black hole because it have features my black hole because it have features my black hole because it have features that I could distinguish and it could that I could distinguish and it could that I could distinguish and it could encode the information that went in in encode the information that went in in encode the information that went in in this way. And and the event horizon this way. And and the event horizon this way. And and the event horizon isn't so serious. There isn't such a isn't so serious. There isn't such a isn't so serious. There isn't such a stark demarcation between events inside stark demarcation between events inside stark demarcation between events inside and outside and where I can't know what and outside and where I can't know what and outside and where I can't know what happened inside or outside. And um I happened inside or outside. And um I happened inside or outside. And um I don't think that's the resolution either don't think that's the resolution either don't think that's the resolution either but it was worth a try. Okay. The pros but it was worth a try. Okay. The pros but it was worth a try. Okay. The pros and cons of that one. The pros, it works

and cons of that one. The pros, it works and cons of that one. The pros, it works within the framework of quantum field within the framework of quantum field within the framework of quantum field theory in curved spaceime potentially theory in curved spaceime potentially theory in curved spaceime potentially requiring less radical modifications requiring less radical modifications requiring less radical modifications than fuzballs or information loss. than fuzballs or information loss. than fuzballs or information loss. Recent work by Hawking Perry Strongly Recent work by Hawking Perry Strongly Recent work by Hawking Perry Strongly revitalized this idea. The cons is that revitalized this idea. The cons is that revitalized this idea. The cons is that the precise mechanism by which the precise mechanism by which the precise mechanism by which information is encoded and transferred information is encoded and transferred information is encoded and transferred to the radiation is still debated and to the radiation is still debated and to the radiation is still debated and technically challenging to work out technically challenging to work out technically challenging to work out fully and indeed it needs to store a fully and indeed it needs to store a fully and indeed it needs to store a vast amount of information. Okay, vast amount of information. Okay, vast amount of information. Okay, another one. This is a weird one. boy is another one. This is a weird one. boy is another one. This is a weird one. boy is uh ER equals EPR. This is probably it uh ER equals EPR. This is probably it uh ER equals EPR. This is probably it though. Oh boy. So ER equals EPR is though. Oh boy. So ER equals EPR is though. Oh boy. So ER equals EPR is Einstein Rosen Bridge equals Einstein Einstein Rosen Bridge equals Einstein Einstein Rosen Bridge equals Einstein Podski Rosen Bridge posits a deep Podski Rosen Bridge posits a deep Podski Rosen Bridge posits a deep connection between quantum entanglement connection between quantum entanglement connection between quantum entanglement and space-time geometry. Uh specifically and space-time geometry. Uh specifically and space-time geometry. Uh specifically Einstein Rosen bridge commonly known as Einstein Rosen bridge commonly known as Einstein Rosen bridge commonly known as wormholes. It suggests that entangled wormholes. It suggests that entangled wormholes. It suggests that entangled particles are connected by a particles are connected by a particles are connected by a non-traversible wormhole. are tiny non-traversible wormhole. are tiny non-traversible wormhole. are tiny wormholes connecting. Okay, I I can say wormholes connecting. Okay, I I can say wormholes connecting. Okay, I I can say that this is not that this is not that this is not uh a situation we can follow the chalk.

uh a situation we can follow the chalk. uh a situation we can follow the chalk. We can't start at the beginning and We can't start at the beginning and We can't start at the beginning and calculate to the end. So, it's um it's calculate to the end. So, it's um it's calculate to the end. So, it's um it's still a conjecture. I think it's very still a conjecture. I think it's very still a conjecture. I think it's very profound though. Um I kind of imagine profound though. Um I kind of imagine profound though. Um I kind of imagine Juan Maldsina who's part of this with Juan Maldsina who's part of this with Juan Maldsina who's part of this with Lenny Suskin, they were kind of like h Lenny Suskin, they were kind of like h Lenny Suskin, they were kind of like h it's like er equals EPR. They couldn't it's like er equals EPR. They couldn't it's like er equals EPR. They couldn't even formulate it properly. It was like even formulate it properly. It was like even formulate it properly. It was like an intuition that they had kind of an intuition that they had kind of an intuition that they had kind of landed on and now are trying to landed on and now are trying to landed on and now are trying to formalize. But to take a step back, one formalize. But to take a step back, one formalize. But to take a step back, one way of thinking about ER equals EPR, you way of thinking about ER equals EPR, you way of thinking about ER equals EPR, you have to talk about holography first. And have to talk about holography first. And have to talk about holography first. And holography both Juan Maldina really holography both Juan Maldina really holography both Juan Maldina really formalized it, Lenny Suskin suggested formalized it, Lenny Suskin suggested formalized it, Lenny Suskin suggested it. The idea of a black hole hologram is it. The idea of a black hole hologram is it. The idea of a black hole hologram is that all of the information in the black that all of the information in the black that all of the information in the black hole whatever it is whatever you know hole whatever it is whatever you know hole whatever it is whatever you know entropy as a measure of information uh entropy as a measure of information uh entropy as a measure of information uh whatever the entropy of the black hole whatever the entropy of the black hole whatever the entropy of the black hole is which is telling you how much is which is telling you how much is which is telling you how much information is hidden in there how much information is hidden in there how much information is hidden in there how much information you don't have direct access information you don't have direct access information you don't have direct access to in some sense um is completely to in some sense um is completely to in some sense um is completely encoded in the area of the black hole encoded in the area of the black hole encoded in the area of the black hole meaning as the area grows the entropy meaning as the area grows the entropy meaning as the area grows the entropy grows it does not grow as the volume grows it does not grow as the volume grows it does not grow as the volume this actually turns out to be really this actually turns out to be really this actually turns out to be really really important really important really important If I tried to pack a lot of information If I tried to pack a lot of information If I tried to pack a lot of information into a volume, more information than I into a volume, more information than I into a volume, more information than I could pack, let's say, on the surface of could pack, let's say, on the surface of could pack, let's say, on the surface of a black hole, I would simply make a a black hole, I would simply make a a black hole, I would simply make a black hole and I would find out, oh, I black hole and I would find out, oh, I black hole and I would find out, oh, I can't have more information than I can can't have more information than I can can't have more information than I can fit on the surface. So, Lenny coined fit on the surface. So, Lenny coined fit on the surface. So, Lenny coined this a hologram. People who take it very this a hologram. People who take it very this a hologram. People who take it very seriously say, well, again, maybe the seriously say, well, again, maybe the seriously say, well, again, maybe the interior of the black hole just doesn't interior of the black hole just doesn't interior of the black hole just doesn't exist. It's a holographic projection of exist. It's a holographic projection of exist. It's a holographic projection of this two-dimensional surface. In fact,

this two-dimensional surface. In fact, this two-dimensional surface. In fact, maybe I should take it all the way and maybe I should take it all the way and maybe I should take it all the way and say, so are we. Mhm. The whole universe say, so are we. Mhm. The whole universe say, so are we. Mhm. The whole universe is a holographic projection of a lower is a holographic projection of a lower is a holographic projection of a lower dimensional surface, right? And so dimensional surface, right? And so dimensional surface, right? And so people have struggled, nobody's really people have struggled, nobody's really people have struggled, nobody's really landed it to find a universe version of landed it to find a universe version of landed it to find a universe version of it. Oh, maybe there's a boundary to the it. Oh, maybe there's a boundary to the it. Oh, maybe there's a boundary to the universe where all the information is universe where all the information is universe where all the information is encoded and this entire encoded and this entire encoded and this entire three-dimensional reality that's so three-dimensional reality that's so three-dimensional reality that's so compelling and so convincing is actually compelling and so convincing is actually compelling and so convincing is actually just a holographic projection. Juan just a holographic projection. Juan just a holographic projection. Juan Maldesina did something absolutely Maldesina did something absolutely Maldesina did something absolutely brilliant. It's the most highly cited brilliant. It's the most highly cited brilliant. It's the most highly cited paper in the history of physics. It was paper in the history of physics. It was paper in the history of physics. It was published in the late '9s. Uh it has a published in the late '9s. Uh it has a published in the late '9s. Uh it has a very opaque title that would not lead very opaque title that would not lead very opaque title that would not lead you to believe it's as revelatory as it you to believe it's as revelatory as it you to believe it's as revelatory as it is. But he was able to show that a is. But he was able to show that a is. But he was able to show that a universe like in a box with gravity in universe like in a box with gravity in universe like in a box with gravity in it. It's not the same universe we it. It's not the same universe we it. It's not the same universe we observe. Doesn't matter. It's just a observe. Doesn't matter. It's just a observe. Doesn't matter. It's just a hypothetical called an anti-itter space. hypothetical called an anti-itter space. hypothetical called an anti-itter space. It's a universe in a box. It has It's a universe in a box. It has It's a universe in a box. It has gravity. It has black holes. It has gravity. It has black holes. It has gravity. It has black holes. It has everything gravity can do in it. on its everything gravity can do in it. on its everything gravity can do in it. on its boundary is a a theory with no gravity, boundary is a a theory with no gravity, boundary is a a theory with no gravity, a universe that can be described with no a universe that can be described with no a universe that can be described with no gravity at all. So, no black holes and gravity at all. So, no black holes and gravity at all. So, no black holes and no information loss no information loss no information loss problem. And they're problem. And they're problem. And they're equivalent. That the interior universe equivalent. That the interior universe equivalent. That the interior universe in a box is a holographic in a box is a holographic in a box is a holographic projection of this quantum mechanics on projection of this quantum mechanics on projection of this quantum mechanics on the boundary. pure quantum mechanics, the boundary. pure quantum mechanics, the boundary. pure quantum mechanics, purely unitary, no loss of information.

purely unitary, no loss of information. purely unitary, no loss of information. None of this stuff could possibly be None of this stuff could possibly be None of this stuff could possibly be true. There can't be loss of information true. There can't be loss of information true. There can't be loss of information if this dictionary really works. If the if this dictionary really works. If the if this dictionary really works. If the interior is a hologram, a projection of interior is a hologram, a projection of interior is a hologram, a projection of the boundary. I know that's a lot. Yeah. the boundary. I know that's a lot. Yeah. the boundary. I know that's a lot. Yeah. So, there's a there's some mathematics So, there's a there's some mathematics So, there's a there's some mathematics there. There's physics and then there's there. There's physics and then there's there. There's physics and then there's trying to conceal what that actually trying to conceal what that actually trying to conceal what that actually means practically for for us. Mhm. Well, means practically for for us. Mhm. Well, means practically for for us. Mhm. Well, what it would mean for us is that what it would mean for us is that what it would mean for us is that information can't be lost even if we information can't be lost even if we information can't be lost even if we don't know how to show it in the don't know how to show it in the don't know how to show it in the description in which there are black description in which there are black description in which there are black holes. It means it can't possibly be holes. It means it can't possibly be holes. It means it can't possibly be lost because it's lost because it's lost because it's equivalent to this description with no equivalent to this description with no equivalent to this description with no gravity in it at all. No event horizons, gravity in it at all. No event horizons, gravity in it at all. No event horizons, no black holes, just quantum mechanics. no black holes, just quantum mechanics. no black holes, just quantum mechanics. So it really strongly suggested that So it really strongly suggested that So it really strongly suggested that that quantum mechanics was going to win that quantum mechanics was going to win that quantum mechanics was going to win in this battle, but it didn't show in this battle, but it didn't show in this battle, but it didn't show exactly how it was going to win. So then exactly how it was going to win. So then exactly how it was going to win. So then comes ER equals EPR. A visual way to comes ER equals EPR. A visual way to comes ER equals EPR. A visual way to imagine what this means. So ER has to do imagine what this means. So ER has to do imagine what this means. So ER has to do with little with little with little wormholes. EPR Einstein Podski Rosen has wormholes. EPR Einstein Podski Rosen has wormholes. EPR Einstein Podski Rosen has to do with quantum entanglement. The to do with quantum entanglement. The to do with quantum entanglement. The idea was, well, maybe the stuff that's idea was, well, maybe the stuff that's idea was, well, maybe the stuff that's interior to the black hole is quantum interior to the black hole is quantum interior to the black hole is quantum entangled, like EPR, quantum entangled entangled, like EPR, quantum entangled entangled, like EPR, quantum entangled with the Hawking radiation outside the with the Hawking radiation outside the with the Hawking radiation outside the black hole that's escaping. And that black hole that's escaping. And that black hole that's escaping. And that quantum entanglement is what allows you quantum entanglement is what allows you quantum entanglement is what allows you to extract the information because it's to extract the information because it's to extract the information because it's not actually physically moving from the

not actually physically moving from the not actually physically moving from the interior to the exterior. It's it's just interior to the exterior. It's it's just interior to the exterior. It's it's just subtle quantum entanglement. And in subtle quantum entanglement. And in subtle quantum entanglement. And in fact, I can kind of think of the entire fact, I can kind of think of the entire fact, I can kind of think of the entire black hole. If I look at it, it looks black hole. If I look at it, it looks black hole. If I look at it, it looks like a solid shadow cast on the sky, like a solid shadow cast on the sky, like a solid shadow cast on the sky, some region of spaceime. If I look at it some region of spaceime. If I look at it some region of spaceime. If I look at it very closely, I will see, oh no, it's very closely, I will see, oh no, it's very closely, I will see, oh no, it's actually sewn from these quantum actually sewn from these quantum actually sewn from these quantum wormholes, like embroidered. And so when wormholes, like embroidered. And so when wormholes, like embroidered. And so when I get up close, it's almost as though I get up close, it's almost as though I get up close, it's almost as though the event horizon isn't the fundamental the event horizon isn't the fundamental the event horizon isn't the fundamental uh feature on the spacetime. The uh feature on the spacetime. The uh feature on the spacetime. The fundamental feature is the quantum fundamental feature is the quantum fundamental feature is the quantum entanglement embroidering the event entanglement embroidering the event entanglement embroidering the event horizon. The embroidering is is just horizon. The embroidering is is just horizon. The embroidering is is just tiny wormholes. So the quantum tiny wormholes. So the quantum tiny wormholes. So the quantum entanglement is when two particles are entanglement is when two particles are entanglement is when two particles are connected at arbitrary distances and connected at arbitrary distances and connected at arbitrary distances and they're connected by a wormhole. And in they're connected by a wormhole. And in they're connected by a wormhole. And in this case they would be connected by a this case they would be connected by a this case they would be connected by a wormhole. Mhm. So the reason why that's wormhole. Mhm. So the reason why that's wormhole. Mhm. So the reason why that's helpful, it helps you connect the helpful, it helps you connect the helpful, it helps you connect the interior to the exterior without trying interior to the exterior without trying interior to the exterior without trying to pass through the horizon. The cons of to pass through the horizon. The cons of to pass through the horizon. The cons of this theory is highly conceptual and this theory is highly conceptual and this theory is highly conceptual and abstract. The exact mechanism for abstract. The exact mechanism for abstract. The exact mechanism for information retrieval via these information retrieval via these information retrieval via these non-traversible war polls is not fully non-traversible war polls is not fully non-traversible war polls is not fully understood. Primarily explored in understood. Primarily explored in understood. Primarily explored in theoretical toy models. Whoa, Gemini theoretical toy models. Whoa, Gemini theoretical toy models. Whoa, Gemini going hard. Uh theoretical toy models going hard. Uh theoretical toy models going hard. Uh theoretical toy models like the anti-deitter spaceime rather like the anti-deitter spaceime rather like the anti-deitter spaceime rather than realistic black holes. True. We do

than realistic black holes. True. We do than realistic black holes. True. We do what we can do. what we can do. what we can do. in baby steps. So the uh another idea to in baby steps. So the uh another idea to in baby steps. So the uh another idea to resolve the information paradox is resolve the information paradox is resolve the information paradox is firewalls firewalls firewalls proposed by Mary Marov Pchinski and proposed by Mary Marov Pchinski and proposed by Mary Marov Pchinski and Sully amps. This is a more drastic Sully amps. This is a more drastic Sully amps. This is a more drastic scenario arising from analyzing the scenario arising from analyzing the scenario arising from analyzing the entanglement requirements of Hawking entanglement requirements of Hawking entanglement requirements of Hawking radiation to preserve unitarity and radiation to preserve unitarity and radiation to preserve unitarity and avoid information loss. They argued that avoid information loss. They argued that avoid information loss. They argued that the entanglement structure requires the the entanglement structure requires the the entanglement structure requires the event horizon not to be smooth, not to event horizon not to be smooth, not to event horizon not to be smooth, not to be the smooth unremarkable place be the smooth unremarkable place be the smooth unremarkable place predicted by general relativity, the predicted by general relativity, the predicted by general relativity, the equivalence principle. Instead, it must equivalence principle. Instead, it must equivalence principle. Instead, it must be a highly energetic region, a quote be a highly energetic region, a quote be a highly energetic region, a quote firewall that incinerates anything firewall that incinerates anything firewall that incinerates anything attempting to cross it. Okay. So, yeah, attempting to cross it. Okay. So, yeah, attempting to cross it. Okay. So, yeah, that's a nice solution. Just destroy that's a nice solution. Just destroy that's a nice solution. Just destroy everything that crosses them. Um, do you everything that crosses them. Um, do you everything that crosses them. Um, do you find this at all a convincing resolution find this at all a convincing resolution find this at all a convincing resolution to the information? would say the to the information? would say the to the information? would say the firewall papers were fascinating and firewall papers were fascinating and firewall papers were fascinating and were very provocative and very important were very provocative and very important were very provocative and very important in making progress. I don't even think in making progress. I don't even think in making progress. I don't even think the authors of those papers thought the authors of those papers thought the authors of those papers thought firewalls were real. I think they were firewalls were real. I think they were firewalls were real. I think they were saying, "Look, we've been brushing too saying, "Look, we've been brushing too saying, "Look, we've been brushing too much under the rug." And if you look at much under the rug." And if you look at much under the rug." And if you look at the evaporation process, it's even worse the evaporation process, it's even worse the evaporation process, it's even worse than what you thought previously. It's than what you thought previously. It's than what you thought previously. It's so bad that I can't get away with some so bad that I can't get away with some so bad that I can't get away with some of these prior solutions that I thought of these prior solutions that I thought of these prior solutions that I thought I could get away with. Um there was a I could get away with. Um there was a I could get away with. Um there was a kind of duality idea or a kind of duality idea or a kind of duality idea or a complimentarity idea that oh well maybe complimentarity idea that oh well maybe complimentarity idea that oh well maybe one person thinks they fell in one one person thinks they fell in one one person thinks they fell in one person thinks they never fell in and person thinks they never fell in and person thinks they never fell in and that's okay you know no big deal. They

that's okay you know no big deal. They that's okay you know no big deal. They sort of exposed flaws in these kind of sort of exposed flaws in these kind of sort of exposed flaws in these kind of approaches and it actually reinvigorated approaches and it actually reinvigorated approaches and it actually reinvigorated the campaign to find a solution. Um so the campaign to find a solution. Um so the campaign to find a solution. Um so it stopped it from stalling. I don't it stopped it from stalling. I don't it stopped it from stalling. I don't think anyone really believes that the think anyone really believes that the think anyone really believes that the event horizon, at the event horizon, event horizon, at the event horizon, event horizon, at the event horizon, you'll find a firewall. But it did lead you'll find a firewall. But it did lead you'll find a firewall. But it did lead to things like the entangled wormholes to things like the entangled wormholes to things like the entangled wormholes embroidering a black hole, which is um embroidering a black hole, which is um embroidering a black hole, which is um was born out of an attempt to um address was born out of an attempt to um address was born out of an attempt to um address the concerns that amps raised. So it did the concerns that amps raised. So it did the concerns that amps raised. So it did lead to progress. So for you, the lead to progress. So for you, the lead to progress. So for you, the resolution would uh I'm going back to resolution would uh I'm going back to resolution would uh I'm going back to the vacuum. You're going back, the empty the vacuum. You're going back, the empty the vacuum. You're going back, the empty space, the beautiful event horizon. Y space, the beautiful event horizon. Y space, the beautiful event horizon. Y I'll give up um I'll give up locality I'll give up um I'll give up locality I'll give up um I'll give up locality meaning that I will allow things to be meaning that I will allow things to be meaning that I will allow things to be connected connected connected non-locally by a wormhole. So that is non-locally by a wormhole. So that is non-locally by a wormhole. So that is the weirdest thing you're willing to the weirdest thing you're willing to the weirdest thing you're willing to allow for which is arbitrary distance allow for which is arbitrary distance allow for which is arbitrary distance connection of particles through a connection of particles through a connection of particles through a wormhole. But quantum mechanics must be wormhole. But quantum mechanics must be wormhole. But quantum mechanics must be preserved. I'll entertain pretty weird preserved. I'll entertain pretty weird preserved. I'll entertain pretty weird things but I think that's the one that things but I think that's the one that things but I think that's the one that sounds promising. The implications are sounds promising. The implications are sounds promising. The implications are so dramatic because this is why you so dramatic because this is why you so dramatic because this is why you start to hear things like, "Wait a start to hear things like, "Wait a start to hear things like, "Wait a minute. If the event horizon only exists minute. If the event horizon only exists minute. If the event horizon only exists when it's sewn out of these quantum when it's sewn out of these quantum when it's sewn out of these quantum threads, does that mean that gravity is threads, does that mean that gravity is threads, does that mean that gravity is fundamentally quantum mechanics?" Not fundamentally quantum mechanics?" Not fundamentally quantum mechanics?" Not that gravity and quantum mechanics get that gravity and quantum mechanics get that gravity and quantum mechanics get along and I have a quantum gravity along and I have a quantum gravity along and I have a quantum gravity theory and I now know how to quantize theory and I now know how to quantize theory and I now know how to quantize gravity. Actually, something much more gravity. Actually, something much more gravity. Actually, something much more dramatic. Gravity is just kind of

dramatic. Gravity is just kind of dramatic. Gravity is just kind of emerging from this quantum description emerging from this quantum description emerging from this quantum description that gravity isn't fundamental. that gravity isn't fundamental. that gravity isn't fundamental. And what is the only thing that we have And what is the only thing that we have And what is the only thing that we have when we go rock bottom, when we go when we go rock bottom, when we go when we go rock bottom, when we go deeper and deeper, smaller and smaller deeper and deeper, smaller and smaller deeper and deeper, smaller and smaller is quantum mechanics. So all of this is quantum mechanics. So all of this is quantum mechanics. So all of this like spacetime looks nice and smooth and like spacetime looks nice and smooth and like spacetime looks nice and smooth and continuous. But if I look at the quantum continuous. But if I look at the quantum continuous. But if I look at the quantum realm, I'll see everything sewn together realm, I'll see everything sewn together realm, I'll see everything sewn together out of quantum threads and that out of quantum threads and that out of quantum threads and that spacetime is not a smooth continuum all spacetime is not a smooth continuum all spacetime is not a smooth continuum all the way down. Now people already thought the way down. Now people already thought the way down. Now people already thought that, but they thought it kind of came that, but they thought it kind of came that, but they thought it kind of came in chunks of spaceime. instead. Maybe in chunks of spaceime. instead. Maybe in chunks of spaceime. instead. Maybe it's just quantum mechanics all the way it's just quantum mechanics all the way it's just quantum mechanics all the way down. Quantum threads. So these down. Quantum threads. So these down. Quantum threads. So these entangled particles connected by entangled particles connected by entangled particles connected by wormholes. wormholes. wormholes. So that's what that's how you would how So that's what that's how you would how So that's what that's how you would how would you even visualize a black hole in would you even visualize a black hole in would you even visualize a black hole in that way. So it's all that way. So it's all that way. So it's all um I mean it's all sort of from our um I mean it's all sort of from our um I mean it's all sort of from our perspective in terms of detecting things perspective in terms of detecting things perspective in terms of detecting things the light goes going in it's all still the light goes going in it's all still the light goes going in it's all still the same. But when you zoom in a lot, the same. But when you zoom in a lot, the same. But when you zoom in a lot, when you zoom in a lot to the quantum when you zoom in a lot to the quantum when you zoom in a lot to the quantum mechanical scale at which you're seeing mechanical scale at which you're seeing mechanical scale at which you're seeing the Hawking radiation, you would be the Hawking radiation, you would be the Hawking radiation, you would be noticing that there's there's some noticing that there's there's some noticing that there's there's some entanglement between the radiation that entanglement between the radiation that entanglement between the radiation that I could not explain before and the I could not explain before and the I could not explain before and the interior of the black hole. So, it's now interior of the black hole. So, it's now interior of the black hole. So, it's now no longer a no longer a no longer a perfectly thermal spectrum with no perfectly thermal spectrum with no perfectly thermal spectrum with no features that only depends on the mass.

features that only depends on the mass. features that only depends on the mass. it actually has a way to have an imprint it actually has a way to have an imprint it actually has a way to have an imprint of the information interior to the black of the information interior to the black of the information interior to the black hole in the particles that um escape. hole in the particles that um escape. hole in the particles that um escape. And so now in principle I could sit And so now in principle I could sit And so now in principle I could sit there for a very long time. It might there for a very long time. It might there for a very long time. It might take longer than the age of the universe take longer than the age of the universe take longer than the age of the universe and collect all the Hawking radiation and collect all the Hawking radiation and collect all the Hawking radiation and see that it actually had details in and see that it actually had details in and see that it actually had details in it that are going to explain to me what it that are going to explain to me what it that are going to explain to me what was interior to the black hole. So the was interior to the black hole. So the was interior to the black hole. So the information is no longer lost. So yeah, information is no longer lost. So yeah, information is no longer lost. So yeah, so information is not being destroyed. so information is not being destroyed. so information is not being destroyed. So in theory, you should be able to get So in theory, you should be able to get So in theory, you should be able to get information. Now I can't do that anymore information. Now I can't do that anymore information. Now I can't do that anymore than I can recover the words on that than I can recover the words on that than I can recover the words on that piece of paper once it's been burnt. But piece of paper once it's been burnt. But piece of paper once it's been burnt. But that's a practical limitation, not a that's a practical limitation, not a that's a practical limitation, not a fundamental one. It's just too hard. But fundamental one. It's just too hard. But fundamental one. It's just too hard. But when I burn a piece of paper, when I burn a piece of paper, when I burn a piece of paper, technically the information is all there technically the information is all there technically the information is all there somewhere. It's in the smoke. It's in somewhere. It's in the smoke. It's in somewhere. It's in the smoke. It's in the currents. It's in the molecules. the currents. It's in the molecules. the currents. It's in the molecules. It's in the ink molecules. But in It's in the ink molecules. But in It's in the ink molecules. But in principle, if I had took the age of the principle, if I had took the age of the principle, if I had took the age of the universe, I could probably reconstru I universe, I could probably reconstru I universe, I could probably reconstru I should be able to in principle should be able to in principle should be able to in principle reconstruct the piece of paper and all reconstruct the piece of paper and all reconstruct the piece of paper and all the words on it.

the words on it. the words on it. Do you think a theory of everything that Do you think a theory of everything that Do you think a theory of everything that unifies general relativity, quantum unifies general relativity, quantum unifies general relativity, quantum mechanics is possible? So, we're like uh mechanics is possible? So, we're like uh mechanics is possible? So, we're like uh skirting around it. Yeah, we're skirting skirting around it. Yeah, we're skirting skirting around it. Yeah, we're skirting around it. I think that this is the way around it. I think that this is the way around it. I think that this is the way to find that out. It's going to be on to find that out. It's going to be on to find that out. It's going to be on the train of black holes that we figure the train of black holes that we figure the train of black holes that we figure out if that's possible. out if that's possible. out if that's possible. Um I think that this is suggesting that Um I think that this is suggesting that Um I think that this is suggesting that there might not be a theory of quantum there might not be a theory of quantum there might not be a theory of quantum gravity that gravity will emerge at a gravity that gravity will emerge at a gravity that gravity will emerge at a macroscopic level out of quantum macroscopic level out of quantum macroscopic level out of quantum phenomena. Now we don't know how to do phenomena. Now we don't know how to do phenomena. Now we don't know how to do that yet but these are all hints emerge. that yet but these are all hints emerge. that yet but these are all hints emerge. So a lot of the mathematics of anything So a lot of the mathematics of anything So a lot of the mathematics of anything that emerges from complex system is very that emerges from complex system is very that emerges from complex system is very difficult to the transition is very difficult to the transition is very difficult to the transition is very difficult right so if that's the case difficult right so if that's the case difficult right so if that's the case there might not be a simple clean there might not be a simple clean there might not be a simple clean equation that that connects everything equation that that connects everything equation that that connects everything there are examples of emerging phenomena there are examples of emerging phenomena there are examples of emerging phenomena which are very simple and clean like I which are very simple and clean like I which are very simple and clean like I can just take electromagnetic scattering can just take electromagnetic scattering can just take electromagnetic scattering just um law of physics where particles just um law of physics where particles just um law of physics where particles scatter just by electromagnetically and scatter just by electromagnetically and scatter just by electromagnetically and I have a lot of them and I have a lot of I have a lot of them and I have a lot of I have a lot of them and I have a lot of them in this room and they come to some them in this room and they come to some them in this room and they come to some average well I call that temperature, average well I call that temperature, average well I call that temperature, right? And that one number, the fact right? And that one number, the fact right? And that one number, the fact that there's one number describing all that there's one number describing all that there's one number describing all of these gazillions of particles is an of these gazillions of particles is an of these gazillions of particles is an emergent quantity. It's there's no emergent quantity. It's there's no emergent quantity. It's there's no particle that carries around this particle that carries around this particle that carries around this fundamental property called temperature, fundamental property called temperature, fundamental property called temperature, right? Um it emerges from the collective right? Um it emerges from the collective right? Um it emerges from the collective behavior of tons and tons of particles.

behavior of tons and tons of particles. behavior of tons and tons of particles. In some sense, temperature is not a In some sense, temperature is not a In some sense, temperature is not a fundamental quantity. It's not a fundamental quantity. It's not a fundamental quantity. It's not a fundamental law of nature, right? It's fundamental law of nature, right? It's fundamental law of nature, right? It's just what just what just what happens from the collective behavior. happens from the collective behavior. happens from the collective behavior. And that's what we'd be saying. We'd be And that's what we'd be saying. We'd be And that's what we'd be saying. We'd be saying, saying, saying, "Oh, this this emerges from the "Oh, this this emerges from the "Oh, this this emerges from the collective behavior of lots and lots and collective behavior of lots and lots and collective behavior of lots and lots and lots of um quantum interactions." So lots of um quantum interactions." So lots of um quantum interactions." So when do you think we would have some when do you think we would have some when do you think we would have some breakthroughs on breakthroughs on breakthroughs on uh the path towards theory of everything uh the path towards theory of everything uh the path towards theory of everything showing that it's possible or impossible showing that it's possible or impossible showing that it's possible or impossible all that kind of stuff? If you look at all that kind of stuff? If you look at all that kind of stuff? If you look at the 21st century, say you're move 100 the 21st century, say you're move 100 the 21st century, say you're move 100 years into the future and looking back, years into the future and looking back, years into the future and looking back, when do you think the breakthroughs will when do you think the breakthroughs will when do you think the breakthroughs will come? So I'll give you some hard come? So I'll give you some hard come? So I'll give you some hard problems. I guess my question is how problems. I guess my question is how problems. I guess my question is how hard is this problem? Your like what hard is this problem? Your like what hard is this problem? Your like what does your gut say? Because you know does your gut say? Because you know does your gut say? Because you know finding the origin of life, figuring out finding the origin of life, figuring out finding the origin of life, figuring out consciousness, solving some of the major consciousness, solving some of the major consciousness, solving some of the major diseases. Then there's the theory of diseases. Then there's the theory of diseases. Then there's the theory of everything, understanding this, everything, understanding this, everything, understanding this, resolving the information paradox. resolving the information paradox. resolving the information paradox. So these puzzles that are before us as a So these puzzles that are before us as a So these puzzles that are before us as a human civilization, human civilization, human civilization, physics, this feels like really one of physics, this feels like really one of physics, this feels like really one of the big ones. Of course, there could be the big ones. Of course, there could be the big ones. Of course, there could be other breakthroughs in other breakthroughs in other breakthroughs in physics that don't solve this. Yeah, we physics that don't solve this. Yeah, we physics that don't solve this. Yeah, we could discover dark matter, dark energy.

could discover dark matter, dark energy. could discover dark matter, dark energy. We could discover extra spatial We could discover extra spatial We could discover extra spatial dimensions. We could discover that those dimensions. We could discover that those dimensions. We could discover that those three things are linked, that there's three things are linked, that there's three things are linked, that there's like a dark sector to the universe like a dark sector to the universe like a dark sector to the universe that's hiding in these extra dimensions. that's hiding in these extra dimensions. that's hiding in these extra dimensions. And that's something that I love to work And that's something that I love to work And that's something that I love to work on. I think is really on. I think is really on. I think is really fascinating. All of those would also be fascinating. All of those would also be fascinating. All of those would also be clues about this question, but they clues about this question, but they clues about this question, but they wouldn't solve this problem. wouldn't solve this problem. wouldn't solve this problem. Um I think there I think it's impossible Um I think there I think it's impossible Um I think there I think it's impossible to predict. There has been real progress to predict. There has been real progress to predict. There has been real progress and the progress as we've said comes and the progress as we've said comes and the progress as we've said comes from the childlike curiosity of saying, from the childlike curiosity of saying, from the childlike curiosity of saying, "Well, I don't actually understand this. "Well, I don't actually understand this. "Well, I don't actually understand this. I'm going to keep leaning on it because I'm going to keep leaning on it because I'm going to keep leaning on it because I don't understand it." And then I don't understand it." And then I don't understand it." And then suddenly you realize nobody really suddenly you realize nobody really suddenly you realize nobody really understood it. Um so I don't I don't understood it. Um so I don't I don't understood it. Um so I don't I don't know. Do I think it's a harder problem know. Do I think it's a harder problem know. Do I think it's a harder problem than the problem of the origin of life? than the problem of the origin of life? than the problem of the origin of life? I think it's technically a harder I think it's technically a harder I think it's technically a harder problem. Um, but I don't know. Maybe problem. Um, but I don't know. Maybe problem. Um, but I don't know. Maybe maybe the breakthrough will come. So, maybe the breakthrough will come. So, maybe the breakthrough will come. So, when you mentioned discovering extra when you mentioned discovering extra when you mentioned discovering extra dimensions, what do you mean? What could dimensions, what do you mean? What could dimensions, what do you mean? What could that possibly mean?

that possibly mean? that possibly mean? Well, we we know that there are three Well, we we know that there are three Well, we we know that there are three spatial dimensions. We like to talk spatial dimensions. We like to talk spatial dimensions. We like to talk about time as a dimension. We can argue about time as a dimension. We can argue about time as a dimension. We can argue about whether that's the right thing to about whether that's the right thing to about whether that's the right thing to do, but we don't know why there are only do, but we don't know why there are only do, but we don't know why there are only three. It very well could be that there three. It very well could be that there three. It very well could be that there are extra spatial dimensions that are extra spatial dimensions that are extra spatial dimensions that there's like a little origami of these there's like a little origami of these there's like a little origami of these tightly rolled up dimensions. Um, not tightly rolled up dimensions. Um, not tightly rolled up dimensions. Um, not all of them, not all the models require all of them, not all the models require all of them, not all the models require that they're small, but most do. String that they're small, but most do. String that they're small, but most do. String theory requires extra dimensions to make theory requires extra dimensions to make theory requires extra dimensions to make sense. But even if you uh feel very um sense. But even if you uh feel very um sense. But even if you uh feel very um hostile towards string theory, there are hostile towards string theory, there are hostile towards string theory, there are there are lots of reasons to consider there are lots of reasons to consider there are lots of reasons to consider the viability of extra the viability of extra the viability of extra dimensions. And we think that they can dimensions. And we think that they can dimensions. And we think that they can trap little quantum energies in such a trap little quantum energies in such a trap little quantum energies in such a way that might align with the dark way that might align with the dark way that might align with the dark energy. And the numerology is not energy. And the numerology is not energy. And the numerology is not perfect. It's a little bit subtle. it's perfect. It's a little bit subtle. it's perfect. It's a little bit subtle. it's hard to stabilize them. Um, it's hard to stabilize them. Um, it's hard to stabilize them. Um, it's possible that there are these kind of possible that there are these kind of possible that there are these kind of quantum exitations that look a lot like quantum exitations that look a lot like quantum exitations that look a lot like dark matter. It's kind of an interesting dark matter. It's kind of an interesting dark matter. It's kind of an interesting idea that in the Big Bang, the universe idea that in the Big Bang, the universe idea that in the Big Bang, the universe was born with lots of these dimensions.

was born with lots of these dimensions. was born with lots of these dimensions. They were all kind of wrapped up in the They were all kind of wrapped up in the They were all kind of wrapped up in the early universe. And what we're really early universe. And what we're really early universe. And what we're really trying to understand is why did three trying to understand is why did three trying to understand is why did three get so get so get so big and and why did the others stay so big and and why did the others stay so big and and why did the others stay so small? Is it possible to have some kind small? Is it possible to have some kind small? Is it possible to have some kind of natural selection of dimensions kind of natural selection of dimensions kind of natural selection of dimensions kind of situation? There is actually and of situation? There is actually and of situation? There is actually and people have worked on that. Is there a people have worked on that. Is there a people have worked on that. Is there a reason why it's uh easier to unravel reason why it's uh easier to unravel reason why it's uh easier to unravel three? Some people think about strings three? Some people think about strings three? Some people think about strings and brains wrapping up in the extra and brains wrapping up in the extra and brains wrapping up in the extra dimensions causing a kind of dimensions causing a kind of dimensions causing a kind of constriction but preferentially constriction but preferentially constriction but preferentially loosening up in three. Um, sometimes we loosening up in three. Um, sometimes we loosening up in three. Um, sometimes we look at exactly models like that which look at exactly models like that which look at exactly models like that which have to do with the origami uh being have to do with the origami uh being have to do with the origami uh being resistant to change in a certain way resistant to change in a certain way resistant to change in a certain way that only allows three to unravel and that only allows three to unravel and that only allows three to unravel and keeps the others really taught. But then keeps the others really taught. But then keeps the others really taught. But then there are other ideas that we're there are other ideas that we're there are other ideas that we're actually living on a three-dimensional actually living on a three-dimensional actually living on a three-dimensional membrane that moves through these higher membrane that moves through these higher membrane that moves through these higher dimensions. And so the reason we don't dimensions. And so the reason we don't dimensions. And so the reason we don't notice them isn't because they're small. notice them isn't because they're small. notice them isn't because they're small. Maybe they're not small at all. But it's Maybe they're not small at all. But it's Maybe they're not small at all. But it's because we're stuck to this membrane.

because we're stuck to this membrane. because we're stuck to this membrane. So, we're unaware of these extra So, we're unaware of these extra So, we're unaware of these extra directions. Is it possible that there's directions. Is it possible that there's directions. Is it possible that there's other intelligent alien civilizations other intelligent alien civilizations other intelligent alien civilizations out there that are out there that are out there that are operating on a different operating on a different operating on a different membrane? Is is this a bit of an out membrane? Is is this a bit of an out membrane? Is is this a bit of an out there question? But I I ask it more kind there question? But I I ask it more kind there question? But I I ask it more kind of seriously like is it possible do you of seriously like is it possible do you of seriously like is it possible do you think from a physics perspective to think from a physics perspective to think from a physics perspective to exist on a exist on a exist on a slice of uh what the universe is capable slice of uh what the universe is capable slice of uh what the universe is capable of? I think it is of? I think it is of? I think it is certainly mathematically possible on certainly mathematically possible on certainly mathematically possible on paper to imagine a higher dimensional paper to imagine a higher dimensional paper to imagine a higher dimensional universe with more than one universe with more than one universe with more than one membrane. membrane. membrane. And if things are mathematically And if things are mathematically And if things are mathematically possible, I often wonder if nature will possible, I often wonder if nature will possible, I often wonder if nature will try it out. Yeah. Um, which is how try it out. Yeah. Um, which is how try it out. Yeah. Um, which is how people get into the the strange people get into the the strange people get into the the strange territory of talking about a multiverse. territory of talking about a multiverse. territory of talking about a multiverse. Because if you start to say one of the Because if you start to say one of the Because if you start to say one of the aspirations was in the same way that we aspirations was in the same way that we aspirations was in the same way that we identified the law of electroeak theory identified the law of electroeak theory identified the law of electroeak theory of matter that it was a single of matter that it was a single of matter that it was a single description and exactly um landed on the description and exactly um landed on the description and exactly um landed on the description that matched observations.

description that matched observations. description that matched observations. People were hoping the same thing would People were hoping the same thing would People were hoping the same thing would happen for a kind of theory that also happen for a kind of theory that also happen for a kind of theory that also incorporated gravity. there would be incorporated gravity. there would be incorporated gravity. there would be this one beautiful law, but instead they this one beautiful law, but instead they this one beautiful law, but instead they got a proliferation, all of which did got a proliferation, all of which did got a proliferation, all of which did okay or did equally badly. Um, they okay or did equally badly. Um, they okay or did equally badly. Um, they suddenly had trouble finding not only suddenly had trouble finding not only suddenly had trouble finding not only finding a single one, but sort of that finding a single one, but sort of that finding a single one, but sort of that would just beg a new question, which is, would just beg a new question, which is, would just beg a new question, which is, well, why that one? And if if nature can well, why that one? And if if nature can well, why that one? And if if nature can do something, won't she do anything she do something, won't she do anything she do something, won't she do anything she can try? And so maybe we really are just can try? And so maybe we really are just can try? And so maybe we really are just one example in an infinite sea of one example in an infinite sea of one example in an infinite sea of possible universes with slightly possible universes with slightly possible universes with slightly different laws of physics. So if I can different laws of physics. So if I can different laws of physics. So if I can do some of these things on paper, like do some of these things on paper, like do some of these things on paper, like imagine a higher dimensional space in imagine a higher dimensional space in imagine a higher dimensional space in which I'm confined to a brain and which I'm confined to a brain and which I'm confined to a brain and there's another brain or maybe a whole there's another brain or maybe a whole there's another brain or maybe a whole array of them. Maybe nature's tried that array of them. Maybe nature's tried that array of them. Maybe nature's tried that out somewhere. Maybe that's been tried out somewhere. Maybe that's been tried out somewhere. Maybe that's been tried out here. Um, and then yes, is it out here. Um, and then yes, is it out here. Um, and then yes, is it possible that there's life and possible that there's life and possible that there's life and civilizations on those other brains? civilizations on those other brains? civilizations on those other brains? Yeah, but we can't communicate with Yeah, but we can't communicate with Yeah, but we can't communicate with them. They'd be like in a shadow space.

them. They'd be like in a shadow space. them. They'd be like in a shadow space. Can you seriously say we can't Can you seriously say we can't Can you seriously say we can't communicate with them? No, that's fair. communicate with them? No, that's fair. communicate with them? No, that's fair. I there I'm limited in my communication I there I'm limited in my communication I there I'm limited in my communication cuz I'm glued to the brain. But some cuz I'm glued to the brain. But some cuz I'm glued to the brain. But some things can move. We call the bulk things can move. We call the bulk things can move. We call the bulk through the bulk. Gravity, for instance, through the bulk. Gravity, for instance, through the bulk. Gravity, for instance, a gravitational wave. So I could design a gravitational wave. So I could design a gravitational wave. So I could design a gravitational a gravitational a gravitational communicator communication system and I communicator communication system and I communicator communication system and I could send gravitational waves through could send gravitational waves through could send gravitational waves through the bulk and how SETI is doing with the bulk and how SETI is doing with the bulk and how SETI is doing with light into space. I could um send light into space. I could um send light into space. I could um send signals into the bulk. Nice. Telling signals into the bulk. Nice. Telling signals into the bulk. Nice. Telling them where we are and what we do and of them where we are and what we do and of them where we are and what we do and of course singing songs. Sending course singing songs. Sending course singing songs. Sending gravitational waves is very expensive. gravitational waves is very expensive. gravitational waves is very expensive. We don't know how to very expensive very We don't know how to very expensive very We don't know how to very expensive very hard to localize. They tend to be long hard to localize. They tend to be long hard to localize. They tend to be long wavelength and very hard to do. lot of wavelength and very hard to do. lot of wavelength and very hard to do. lot of energy moving around. A lot of energy. energy moving around. A lot of energy. energy moving around. A lot of energy. Uh, so is it possible that the membranes Uh, so is it possible that the membranes Uh, so is it possible that the membranes are quote unquote hairy in other ways, are quote unquote hairy in other ways, are quote unquote hairy in other ways, like some kind of weird? It is possible like some kind of weird? It is possible like some kind of weird? It is possible that there's other things that live in that there's other things that live in that there's other things that live in the bulk. I mean, last night I was the bulk. I mean, last night I was the bulk. I mean, last night I was calculating away looking at something calculating away looking at something calculating away looking at something that lives in the bulk. Okay, this is that lives in the bulk. Okay, this is that lives in the bulk. Okay, this is fascinating. So, I mean, okay, can we fascinating. So, I mean, okay, can we fascinating. So, I mean, okay, can we take a little bit more seriously about take a little bit more seriously about take a little bit more seriously about the the whole when I look out there the the whole when I look out there the the whole when I look out there at the stars? Mhm. I from a basic at the stars? Mhm. I from a basic at the stars? Mhm. I from a basic intuition cannot possibly imagine intuition cannot possibly imagine intuition cannot possibly imagine there's not just alien civilizations there's not just alien civilizations there's not just alien civilizations everywhere. Yeah. Life is so damn good.

everywhere. Yeah. Life is so damn good. everywhere. Yeah. Life is so damn good. Like you said, nature tries stuff out. Like you said, nature tries stuff out. Like you said, nature tries stuff out. Yeah. Nature's an experimentter. And I Yeah. Nature's an experimentter. And I Yeah. Nature's an experimentter. And I just can't just basic sort of uh just can't just basic sort of uh just can't just basic sort of uh observation life uh you said somewhere observation life uh you said somewhere observation life uh you said somewhere that you like extreop files life just that you like extreop files life just that you like extreop files life just figures out it just finds a way to figures out it just finds a way to figures out it just finds a way to survive. Now there could be something survive. Now there could be something survive. Now there could be something magical about the origin of life the magical about the origin of life the magical about the origin of life the first spark but like I can't even see first spark but like I can't even see first spark but like I can't even see that it's over and over and over. I bet that it's over and over and over. I bet that it's over and over and over. I bet actually once once the story is fully actually once once the story is fully actually once once the story is fully told and figured out, life originated on told and figured out, life originated on told and figured out, life originated on Earth almost right away and did that. So Earth almost right away and did that. So Earth almost right away and did that. So like billions of like billions of like billions of times uh in multiple places just over times uh in multiple places just over times uh in multiple places just over and over and over and over. Uh that and over and over and over. Uh that and over and over and over. Uh that seems to be the thing that just whatever seems to be the thing that just whatever seems to be the thing that just whatever is the life force behind this whole is the life force behind this whole is the life force behind this whole thing seems to uh seems to create life thing seems to uh seems to create life thing seems to uh seems to create life seems to be a creator of different seems to be a creator of different seems to be a creator of different sorts. Yeah. the the the very from the sorts. Yeah. the the the very from the sorts. Yeah. the the the very from the very original primordial soup of things.

very original primordial soup of things. very original primordial soup of things. It just creates stuff. So, I just can't It just creates stuff. So, I just can't It just creates stuff. So, I just can't imagine, but we don't see the aliens. imagine, but we don't see the aliens. imagine, but we don't see the aliens. So, right. Yeah. We don't even have to So, right. Yeah. We don't even have to So, right. Yeah. We don't even have to go to something as crazy as extra go to something as crazy as extra go to something as crazy as extra dimensions and brain worlds and all of dimensions and brain worlds and all of dimensions and brain worlds and all of that. What's happening right now in the that. What's happening right now in the that. What's happening right now in the past 30 years in astronomy looking at past 30 years in astronomy looking at past 30 years in astronomy looking at real objects is that the number of real objects is that the number of real objects is that the number of planets, exoplanets outside our solar planets, exoplanets outside our solar planets, exoplanets outside our solar system has absolutely proliferated. system has absolutely proliferated. system has absolutely proliferated. There are probably more planets in the There are probably more planets in the There are probably more planets in the Milky Way galaxy than there are stars. Milky Way galaxy than there are stars. Milky Way galaxy than there are stars. And now we have a real quandry. Not I And now we have a real quandry. Not I And now we have a real quandry. Not I don't think it's quandry. I think it's don't think it's quandry. I think it's don't think it's quandry. I think it's really exciting. It becomes impossible. really exciting. It becomes impossible. really exciting. It becomes impossible. What you just said, I totally agree What you just said, I totally agree What you just said, I totally agree with. It becomes impossible to imagine with. It becomes impossible to imagine with. It becomes impossible to imagine that life was not sparked somewhere else that life was not sparked somewhere else that life was not sparked somewhere else in our Milky Way galaxy and maybe even in our Milky Way galaxy and maybe even in our Milky Way galaxy and maybe even in our local neighborhood of the Milky in our local neighborhood of the Milky in our local neighborhood of the Milky Way galaxy, maybe within a few hundred Way galaxy, maybe within a few hundred Way galaxy, maybe within a few hundred lighty years of the Milky of of of our lighty years of the Milky of of of our lighty years of the Milky of of of our solar system. So my my my gut says like solar system. So my my my gut says like solar system. So my my my gut says like some crazy amount of uh solar systems some crazy amount of uh solar systems some crazy amount of uh solar systems have life bacterial life somewhere at have life bacterial life somewhere at have life bacterial life somewhere at some point in their history had some some point in their history had some some point in their history had some bacterial type of life something like bacterial type of life something like bacterial type of life something like bacterial maybe it's totally different bacterial maybe it's totally different bacterial maybe it's totally different kinds of life so then I'm just facing kinds of life so then I'm just facing kinds of life so then I'm just facing with a question it's like why have we with a question it's like why have we with a question it's like why have we not clearly seen alien civilizations and not clearly seen alien civilizations and not clearly seen alien civilizations and there the answer I I just I I don't find there the answer I I just I I don't find there the answer I I just I I don't find any great filter answer convincing.

any great filter answer convincing. any great filter answer convincing. There's just no way I can imagine an There's just no way I can imagine an There's just no way I can imagine an advanced alien civilization not avoiding advanced alien civilization not avoiding advanced alien civilization not avoiding its own destruction. I can see a lot of its own destruction. I can see a lot of its own destruction. I can see a lot of them getting into trouble. I could see them getting into trouble. I could see them getting into trouble. I could see how we humans are really like 50/50 how we humans are really like 50/50 how we humans are really like 50/50 here. Well, isn't that kind of here. Well, isn't that kind of here. Well, isn't that kind of appalling? I mean, just take that appalling? I mean, just take that appalling? I mean, just take that statement. We've only been around for statement. We've only been around for statement. We've only been around for like I mean couple hundred thousand like I mean couple hundred thousand like I mean couple hundred thousand years tops, you know? Um, that is not years tops, you know? Um, that is not years tops, you know? Um, that is not very long and we're at a 50/50. I mean, very long and we're at a 50/50. I mean, very long and we're at a 50/50. I mean, that's unbelievable. I mean, it's that's unbelievable. I mean, it's that's unbelievable. I mean, it's indisputable that we have created the indisputable that we have created the indisputable that we have created the means at least potentially for our own means at least potentially for our own means at least potentially for our own destruction. Will we learn from our destruction. Will we learn from our destruction. Will we learn from our mistakes? Will we avert course and save mistakes? Will we avert course and save mistakes? Will we avert course and save ourselves? One hopes so, right? But but ourselves? One hopes so, right? But but ourselves? One hopes so, right? But but even the concept that it's conceivable even the concept that it's conceivable even the concept that it's conceivable whales have not invented a way to kill whales have not invented a way to kill whales have not invented a way to kill themselves to wipe out all whales and themselves to wipe out all whales and themselves to wipe out all whales and earth and life on earth. That's one way earth and life on earth. That's one way earth and life on earth. That's one way to see it. But I I actually see it as a to see it. But I I actually see it as a to see it. But I I actually see it as a feature not a bug when you look at the feature not a bug when you look at the feature not a bug when you look at the entirety of the universe because uh it entirety of the universe because uh it entirety of the universe because uh it does seem that the mechanism of does seem that the mechanism of does seem that the mechanism of evolution constantly evolution constantly evolution constantly creates you want to operate on the verge creates you want to operate on the verge creates you want to operate on the verge of destruction. It seems like I mean the of destruction. It seems like I mean the of destruction. It seems like I mean the predator and prey dynamic is really predator and prey dynamic is really predator and prey dynamic is really effective at effective at effective at creating a at accelerating evolution and creating a at accelerating evolution and creating a at accelerating evolution and development. It seems like us being able development. It seems like us being able development. It seems like us being able to destroy ourselves is a really to destroy ourselves is a really to destroy ourselves is a really powerful way to give us a chance to powerful way to give us a chance to powerful way to give us a chance to really get our together and to really get our together and to really get our together and to flourish to develop to innovate to to uh flourish to develop to innovate to to uh flourish to develop to innovate to to uh go out amongst the stars or 50/50

go out amongst the stars or 50/50 go out amongst the stars or 50/50 destroy ourselves. But like, which I destroy ourselves. But like, which I destroy ourselves. But like, which I think me as a human is a horrible thing. think me as a human is a horrible thing. think me as a human is a horrible thing. But if there's a lot of other alien But if there's a lot of other alien But if there's a lot of other alien civilizations, that's a pretty cool civilizations, that's a pretty cool civilizations, that's a pretty cool thing. You want to give everybody thing. You want to give everybody thing. You want to give everybody nuclear weapons, nuclear weapons, nuclear weapons, half of them will figure it out, half of half of them will figure it out, half of half of them will figure it out, half of them won't. And the ones that give them won't. And the ones that give them won't. And the ones that give everyone all these civilizations, all everyone all these civilizations, all everyone all these civilizations, all these civilizations, and then the ones these civilizations, and then the ones these civilizations, and then the ones that figure it out will figure out some that figure it out will figure out some that figure it out will figure out some incredible technologies about how to incredible technologies about how to incredible technologies about how to expand, how to develop, and all that expand, how to develop, and all that expand, how to develop, and all that kind of stuff, right? You could use a kind of stuff, right? You could use a kind of stuff, right? You could use a kind of evolutionary Darwinian natural kind of evolutionary Darwinian natural kind of evolutionary Darwinian natural selection on that where in survival selection on that where in survival selection on that where in survival isn't just in a harsh naturally induced isn't just in a harsh naturally induced isn't just in a harsh naturally induced climate change but is because of a climate change but is because of a climate change but is because of a nuclear holocaust and so but and then nuclear holocaust and so but and then nuclear holocaust and so but and then and then something will will be created and then something will will be created and then something will will be created that is now impervious to that that now that is now impervious to that that now that is now impervious to that that now knows how to survive. Yep. Exactly. So knows how to survive. Yep. Exactly. So knows how to survive. Yep. Exactly. So why haven't we seen them? Right. Well why haven't we seen them? Right. Well why haven't we seen them? Right. Well because that's a pretty big bar. So if because that's a pretty big bar. So if because that's a pretty big bar. So if you look at the just to say for a you look at the just to say for a you look at the just to say for a comparison dinosaurs you know 250 comparison dinosaurs you know 250 comparison dinosaurs you know 250 million million million years I mean maybe not very bright years I mean maybe not very bright years I mean maybe not very bright um didn't invent but fire didn't write um didn't invent but fire didn't write um didn't invent but fire didn't write sonnets they didn't contemplate the sonnets they didn't contemplate the sonnets they didn't contemplate the origin of the universe but they they origin of the universe but they they origin of the universe but they they lived lived lived and um in a benign situation without and um in a benign situation without and um in a benign situation without confronting their own demise at their confronting their own demise at their confronting their own demise at their own hands pause own hands pause own hands pause um so It's just a sheer numbers game.

um so It's just a sheer numbers game. um so It's just a sheer numbers game. That's a long time, 250 million years. I That's a long time, 250 million years. I That's a long time, 250 million years. I do think though that life can flourish do think though that life can flourish do think though that life can flourish without wanting to manipulate its without wanting to manipulate its without wanting to manipulate its environment. And that we do see many environment. And that we do see many environment. And that we do see many examples of species on Earth that are examples of species on Earth that are examples of species on Earth that are very longived, very very longived. Um, very longived, very very longived. Um, very longived, very very longived. Um, and have very different states of and have very different states of and have very different states of consciousness. They have the jellyfish consciousness. They have the jellyfish consciousness. They have the jellyfish does not even have a localized brain. does not even have a localized brain. does not even have a localized brain. Um, I don't think they have a heart or Um, I don't think they have a heart or Um, I don't think they have a heart or blood. I mean, they're really different blood. I mean, they're really different blood. I mean, they're really different from us. Okay? And that's what I think from us. Okay? And that's what I think from us. Okay? And that's what I think we have to start thinking about when we we have to start thinking about when we we have to start thinking about when we think about aliens. Those, uh, species think about aliens. Those, uh, species think about aliens. Those, uh, species have lived for a very, very long time. have lived for a very, very long time. have lived for a very, very long time. They even show some evidence of They even show some evidence of They even show some evidence of immortality. You can wound one badly, immortality. You can wound one badly, immortality. You can wound one badly, and there are certain jellyfish that and there are certain jellyfish that and there are certain jellyfish that will go back into a kind of pre-state will go back into a kind of pre-state will go back into a kind of pre-state and start over. So, I think we're very and start over. So, I think we're very and start over. So, I think we're very attached to imagining creatures like us attached to imagining creatures like us attached to imagining creatures like us that manipulate technology. Um, and um, that manipulate technology. Um, and um, that manipulate technology. Um, and um, and I think we have to be way more and I think we have to be way more and I think we have to be way more imaginative imaginative imaginative uh, if we're going to really take uh, if we're going to really take uh, if we're going to really take seriously life in the universe. Yeah.

seriously life in the universe. Yeah. seriously life in the universe. Yeah. They might not prioritize conquest and They might not prioritize conquest and They might not prioritize conquest and expansion. Mhm. They might not be expansion. Mhm. They might not be expansion. Mhm. They might not be violent. They might not be violent like violent. They might not be violent like violent. They might not be violent like us humans. They might be solitary. They us humans. They might be solitary. They us humans. They might be solitary. They might not be social. They might not move might not be social. They might not move might not be social. They might not move in groups. They might not want to leave in groups. They might not want to leave in groups. They might not want to leave records. Um, uh, they might again not records. Um, uh, they might again not records. Um, uh, they might again not have a localized brain or have a have a localized brain or have a have a localized brain or have a completely different kind of nervous completely different kind of nervous completely different kind of nervous system. I think all we can say about system. I think all we can say about system. I think all we can say about life is it has something to do with life is it has something to do with life is it has something to do with moving electrons moving electrons moving electrons around and um, like neurologically we around and um, like neurologically we around and um, like neurologically we move electrons through our nervous move electrons through our nervous move electrons through our nervous system. Our brain has electrical system. Our brain has electrical system. Our brain has electrical configurations. We metabolize food and configurations. We metabolize food and configurations. We metabolize food and that has to do with uh getting energy, that has to do with uh getting energy, that has to do with uh getting energy, electrical energy in some sense out of electrical energy in some sense out of electrical energy in some sense out of um what we're eating. You we organisms um what we're eating. You we organisms um what we're eating. You we organisms on the earth that can eat rocks. It's on the earth that can eat rocks. It's on the earth that can eat rocks. It's quite amazing. Minerals. I mean, talk quite amazing. Minerals. I mean, talk quite amazing. Minerals. I mean, talk about extreophiles. They can metabolize about extreophiles. They can metabolize about extreophiles. They can metabolize things that I would have thought uh were things that I would have thought uh were things that I would have thought uh were impossible to metabolize. And so, again, impossible to metabolize. And so, again, impossible to metabolize. And so, again, I think we we have to kind of open our I think we we have to kind of open our I think we we have to kind of open our minds to how strange that could be minds to how strange that could be minds to how strange that could be um and how different from us. And we are um and how different from us. And we are um and how different from us. And we are the only example even here on earth that the only example even here on earth that the only example even here on earth that that does manipulate its environment in that does manipulate its environment in that does manipulate its environment in that extreme way. I mean can you think that extreme way. I mean can you think that extreme way. I mean can you think of life as cuz you said of life as cuz you said of life as cuz you said electrons is is there some degree of electrons is is there some degree of electrons is is there some degree of information processing required? So like information processing required? So like information processing required? So like it does something interesting in quotes it does something interesting in quotes it does something interesting in quotes with information. I think there are

with information. I think there are with information. I think there are arguments like that. um how entropy is arguments like that. um how entropy is arguments like that. um how entropy is changing from the beginning of the changing from the beginning of the changing from the beginning of the universe to today. How life uh lowers universe to today. How life uh lowers universe to today. How life uh lowers entropy by organizing things but it entropy by organizing things but it entropy by organizing things but it costs more as a whole system. So the costs more as a whole system. So the costs more as a whole system. So the whole entropy of the whole system goes whole entropy of the whole system goes whole entropy of the whole system goes up. But um but of course I I organized up. But um but of course I I organized up. But um but of course I I organized things today and reduced the entropy of things today and reduced the entropy of things today and reduced the entropy of certain things in order to get up and certain things in order to get up and certain things in order to get up and get here. um and even having this get here. um and even having this get here. um and even having this conversation organizing thoughts um out conversation organizing thoughts um out conversation organizing thoughts um out of the cloud of information but it comes of the cloud of information but it comes of the cloud of information but it comes at the cost of the entire system at the cost of the entire system at the cost of the entire system increasing um entropy so I do think increasing um entropy so I do think increasing um entropy so I do think there's probably a very interesting way there's probably a very interesting way there's probably a very interesting way to talk about life in this way I'm sure to talk about life in this way I'm sure to talk about life in this way I'm sure somebody has yeah yeah it creates local somebody has yeah yeah it creates local somebody has yeah yeah it creates local pockets of low entropy and then the kind pockets of low entropy and then the kind pockets of low entropy and then the kind of mechanism the kind of object the kind of mechanism the kind of object the kind of mechanism the kind of object the kind of life form that could do that probably of life form that could do that probably of life form that could do that probably can take arbitrary forms and you could can take arbitrary forms and you could can take arbitrary forms and you could think now if you you reduce it all to think now if you you reduce it all to think now if you you reduce it all to information. Now you can start to think information. Now you can start to think information. Now you can start to think about physics and in the realm of about physics and in the realm of about physics and in the realm of physics with with the multiverse and all physics with with the multiverse and all physics with with the multiverse and all this kind of this kind of this kind of stuff. You could start to think about stuff. You could start to think about stuff. You could start to think about okay how do I detect those pockets of okay how do I detect those pockets of okay how do I detect those pockets of low entropy? Mhm. Yeah. I mean people low entropy? Mhm. Yeah. I mean people low entropy? Mhm. Yeah. I mean people have tried to make arguments like that have tried to make arguments like that have tried to make arguments like that like can I look for entropic arguments like can I look for entropic arguments like can I look for entropic arguments that might suggest we've done this that might suggest we've done this that might suggest we've done this before? the big bang has happened before? the big bang has happened before? the big bang has happened before. So, is it possible that there's before. So, is it possible that there's before. So, is it possible that there's some kind of physics explanation why we some kind of physics explanation why we some kind of physics explanation why we haven't seen the aliens? Like we said,

haven't seen the aliens? Like we said, haven't seen the aliens? Like we said, membranes, I don't think membranes is membranes, I don't think membranes is membranes, I don't think membranes is going to explain why we don't see them going to explain why we don't see them going to explain why we don't see them in the Milky Way. I think that is just a in the Milky Way. I think that is just a in the Milky Way. I think that is just a problem we're stuck with. whether or not problem we're stuck with. whether or not problem we're stuck with. whether or not there are extra dimensions or whether or there are extra dimensions or whether or there are extra dimensions or whether or not there's life in another membrane. Um not there's life in another membrane. Um not there's life in another membrane. Um I think we know that even just in our I think we know that even just in our I think we know that even just in our galaxy which is a very small part of the galaxy which is a very small part of the galaxy which is a very small part of the universe um 300 billion stars something universe um 300 billion stars something universe um 300 billion stars something like that a whole kind of variety of like that a whole kind of variety of like that a whole kind of variety of possibilities to be explored by nature possibilities to be explored by nature possibilities to be explored by nature in the same way that we're describing. in the same way that we're describing. in the same way that we're describing. And I think you're absolutely right when And I think you're absolutely right when And I think you're absolutely right when when life was kicked off first sparked when life was kicked off first sparked when life was kicked off first sparked here on Earth it was voracious. Now, it here on Earth it was voracious. Now, it here on Earth it was voracious. Now, it took a really long time though to get to took a really long time though to get to took a really long time though to get to multisellularity. I think that's multisellularity. I think that's multisellularity. I think that's interesting. That's weird. It's weird. interesting. That's weird. It's weird. interesting. That's weird. It's weird. It took a really really long time to It took a really really long time to It took a really really long time to become become become multisellular. But it it did not take multisellular. But it it did not take multisellular. But it it did not take long just to start. Yeah. What do you long just to start. Yeah. What do you long just to start. Yeah. What do you think is the hardest thing on the chain think is the hardest thing on the chain think is the hardest thing on the chain of leaps that got to humans? I would say of leaps that got to humans? I would say of leaps that got to humans? I would say multisellularity, which is strictly an multisellularity, which is strictly an multisellularity, which is strictly an energy problem. I I think again it's energy problem. I I think again it's energy problem. I I think again it's just like can electrons flow the right just like can electrons flow the right just like can electrons flow the right way? Uh and is it energetically way? Uh and is it energetically way? Uh and is it energetically favorable for favorable for favorable for multisellularity to exist? Because if multisellularity to exist? Because if multisellularity to exist? Because if it's energetically expensive, it's not it's energetically expensive, it's not it's energetically expensive, it's not going to succeed. And if it's going to succeed. And if it's going to succeed. And if it's energetically favorable, it's going to energetically favorable, it's going to energetically favorable, it's going to take off. It's really just and that's take off. It's really just and that's take off. It's really just and that's why I also think that going from why I also think that going from why I also think that going from inanimate

inanimate inanimate um to animate is probably gray. Like the um to animate is probably gray. Like the um to animate is probably gray. Like the transition is gray. At what point we transition is gray. At what point we transition is gray. At what point we call something fully alive? Famously, call something fully alive? Famously, call something fully alive? Famously, it's hard to make a nice list of bullet it's hard to make a nice list of bullet it's hard to make a nice list of bullet points that need to be met in order to points that need to be met in order to points that need to be met in order to declare something alive. Is a virus declare something alive. Is a virus declare something alive. Is a virus alive? I mean, I don't know. Was a PON alive? I mean, I don't know. Was a PON alive? I mean, I don't know. Was a PON alive? Those are they seem to do some alive? Those are they seem to do some alive? Those are they seem to do some things, but they kind of rely on things, but they kind of rely on things, but they kind of rely on stealing other DNA and replicating. And stealing other DNA and replicating. And stealing other DNA and replicating. And I don't know. I guess they're not alive. I don't know. I guess they're not alive. I don't know. I guess they're not alive. But I mean, the point is is that it But I mean, the point is is that it But I mean, the point is is that it really at the end of the day, I really really at the end of the day, I really really at the end of the day, I really think it's just, you asked if it's just think it's just, you asked if it's just think it's just, you asked if it's just physics. I mean, I think it's just this physics. I mean, I think it's just this physics. I mean, I think it's just this these rules of energetics. And the gray these rules of energetics. And the gray these rules of energetics. And the gray area between the non-living and the area between the non-living and the area between the non-living and the living is way simpler just on Earth. And living is way simpler just on Earth. And living is way simpler just on Earth. And you said it's already complicated on you said it's already complicated on you said it's already complicated on Earth, but it's probably even more Earth, but it's probably even more Earth, but it's probably even more complicated elsewhere where the complicated elsewhere where the complicated elsewhere where the chemistry could be anything. Carbon is chemistry could be anything. Carbon is chemistry could be anything. Carbon is really cool and really useful because it really cool and really useful because it really cool and really useful because it finds a lot. It's nice. It finds a lot finds a lot. It's nice. It finds a lot finds a lot. It's nice. It finds a lot of ways to combine with other things.

of ways to combine with other things. of ways to combine with other things. And that's complexity. And complexity is And that's complexity. And complexity is And that's complexity. And complexity is the kind of thing you need for life. You the kind of thing you need for life. You the kind of thing you need for life. You can't have a very simple linear chain can't have a very simple linear chain can't have a very simple linear chain and expect to get life. But I don't and expect to get life. But I don't and expect to get life. But I don't know, maybe sulfur would do. Okay. Okay. know, maybe sulfur would do. Okay. Okay. know, maybe sulfur would do. Okay. Okay. As we get progressively towards crazier As we get progressively towards crazier As we get progressively towards crazier and crazier ideas. So, we talked about and crazier ideas. So, we talked about and crazier ideas. So, we talked about these microscopic wormholes, which you these microscopic wormholes, which you these microscopic wormholes, which you know, my mind is still blown away by know, my mind is still blown away by know, my mind is still blown away by that. But if we talk about a little bit that. But if we talk about a little bit that. But if we talk about a little bit more seriously about wormholes in more seriously about wormholes in more seriously about wormholes in general, also called the Einstein rose general, also called the Einstein rose general, also called the Einstein rose and bridges, to what degree do you think and bridges, to what degree do you think and bridges, to what degree do you think they're actually possible as a thing to they're actually possible as a thing to they're actually possible as a thing to study, creeping towards the study, creeping towards the study, creeping towards the possibility, maybe centuries from now, possibility, maybe centuries from now, possibility, maybe centuries from now, of engineering ways of using them, of of engineering ways of using them, of of engineering ways of using them, of creating wormholes and using them for creating wormholes and using them for creating wormholes and using them for transportation of humanlike organisms. I transportation of humanlike organisms. I transportation of humanlike organisms. I think wormholes are a perfectly valid think wormholes are a perfectly valid think wormholes are a perfectly valid construction to construction to construction to consider. They're just they're just a consider. They're just they're just a consider. They're just they're just a curve in spaceime. curve in spaceime. curve in spaceime. Um the topologically, which has to do Um the topologically, which has to do Um the topologically, which has to do with the connectedness of the space, is with the connectedness of the space, is with the connectedness of the space, is a little tricky because we know that a little tricky because we know that a little tricky because we know that Einstein's description is completely in Einstein's description is completely in Einstein's description is completely in terms of local curves and distortions, terms of local curves and distortions, terms of local curves and distortions, expansion, contraction. But it doesn't expansion, contraction. But it doesn't expansion, contraction. But it doesn't say anything about the global say anything about the global say anything about the global connectedness of the space because he connectedness of the space because he connectedness of the space because he knew that it could be globally connected knew that it could be globally connected knew that it could be globally connected on the largest scales. This kind of on the largest scales. This kind of on the largest scales. This kind of origami that we're talking about that origami that we're talking about that origami that we're talking about that you could travel in a straight line you could travel in a straight line you could travel in a straight line through the universe, leave our galaxy through the universe, leave our galaxy through the universe, leave our galaxy behind, watch the Virgo cluster drift behind, watch the Virgo cluster drift behind, watch the Virgo cluster drift behind us and travel in a straight line

behind us and travel in a straight line behind us and travel in a straight line as possible and find ourselves coming as possible and find ourselves coming as possible and find ourselves coming back again to the Virgo cluster and back again to the Virgo cluster and back again to the Virgo cluster and eventually the Milky Way and eventually eventually the Milky Way and eventually eventually the Milky Way and eventually the Earth that we could find ourselves the Earth that we could find ourselves the Earth that we could find ourselves on a connected compact spaceime. And so on a connected compact spaceime. And so on a connected compact spaceime. And so topologically topologically topologically um there's something we know for sure um there's something we know for sure um there's something we know for sure something beyond Einstein's theory that something beyond Einstein's theory that something beyond Einstein's theory that has to explain that to us. Now wormholes has to explain that to us. Now wormholes has to explain that to us. Now wormholes are a little funky because they're are a little funky because they're are a little funky because they're topological. You know they create these topological. You know they create these topological. You know they create these handles and holes in these sneaky by handles and holes in these sneaky by handles and holes in these sneaky by topological I mean these connected topological I mean these connected topological I mean these connected spaces and yes it's like Swiss cheese or spaces and yes it's like Swiss cheese or spaces and yes it's like Swiss cheese or something. like Swiss cheese and they something. like Swiss cheese and they something. like Swiss cheese and they right and they so I could have you know right and they so I could have you know right and they so I could have you know I I could have two like flat sheets that I I could have two like flat sheets that I I could have two like flat sheets that are connected by a wormhole but then are connected by a wormhole but then are connected by a wormhole but then wrap around on the largest scale you wrap around on the largest scale you wrap around on the largest scale you know all this cool stuff um there's know all this cool stuff um there's know all this cool stuff um there's nothing wrong with it as far as I can nothing wrong with it as far as I can nothing wrong with it as far as I can see there's nothing abusive towards the see there's nothing abusive towards the see there's nothing abusive towards the laws about a wormhole but we can reverse laws about a wormhole but we can reverse laws about a wormhole but we can reverse engineer you we were saying oh look if I engineer you we were saying oh look if I engineer you we were saying oh look if I know how matter and energy are know how matter and energy are know how matter and energy are distributed I can predict how spaceime distributed I can predict how spaceime distributed I can predict how spaceime is curved I can reverse engineer I can is curved I can reverse engineer I can is curved I can reverse engineer I can say I want to build a curved spaceime say I want to build a curved spaceime say I want to build a curved spaceime like a wormhole. What matter and energy like a wormhole. What matter and energy like a wormhole. What matter and energy do I need to do that? It's a simple do I need to do that? It's a simple do I need to do that? It's a simple process and it's kind of thing Hip process and it's kind of thing Hip process and it's kind of thing Hip Thorne uh worked on very imaginative Thorne uh worked on very imaginative Thorne uh worked on very imaginative creative person. Um and the problem was creative person. Um and the problem was creative person. Um and the problem was that he said, "Oh, you know, here's the that he said, "Oh, you know, here's the that he said, "Oh, you know, here's the bummer. The matter and energy you need bummer. The matter and energy you need bummer. The matter and energy you need doesn't seem to be like anything we've doesn't seem to be like anything we've doesn't seem to be like anything we've ever seen before. It has to have like ever seen before. It has to have like ever seen before. It has to have like negative energy." And that's that's not negative energy." And that's that's not negative energy." And that's that's not great. Um there are some conjectures great. Um there are some conjectures great. Um there are some conjectures that we shouldn't allow things that have

that we shouldn't allow things that have that we shouldn't allow things that have that kind of a property that have that kind of a property that have that kind of a property that have negative energies. U only things that negative energies. U only things that negative energies. U only things that have positive energies are going to be have positive energies are going to be have positive energies are going to be stable and longived. But we actually stable and longived. But we actually stable and longived. But we actually know of quantum examples of negative know of quantum examples of negative know of quantum examples of negative energy. So it's not that crazy. There's energy. So it's not that crazy. There's energy. So it's not that crazy. There's something called the Casmir effect. You something called the Casmir effect. You something called the Casmir effect. You have two metal plates and put them have two metal plates and put them have two metal plates and put them really close together. You can see this really close together. You can see this really close together. You can see this kind of quantum fluctuation between the kind of quantum fluctuation between the kind of quantum fluctuation between the plates. It's called a kasmir energy. And plates. It's called a kasmir energy. And plates. It's called a kasmir energy. And that can have a negative energy can that can have a negative energy can that can have a negative energy can actually um cause the place to attract actually um cause the place to attract actually um cause the place to attract or repel depending on how they're or repel depending on how they're or repel depending on how they're configured. And and so you could kind of configured. And and so you could kind of configured. And and so you could kind of imagine doing something like that, like imagine doing something like that, like imagine doing something like that, like having wormholes propped up by these having wormholes propped up by these having wormholes propped up by these kinds of quantum energies. And people kinds of quantum energies. And people kinds of quantum energies. And people have thought of imaginative have thought of imaginative have thought of imaginative configurations to try to keep them configurations to try to keep them configurations to try to keep them propped up. Is it are we at the point of propped up. Is it are we at the point of propped up. Is it are we at the point of me saying, "Oh, this is an engineering me saying, "Oh, this is an engineering me saying, "Oh, this is an engineering problem." I'm not saying that quite yet, problem." I'm not saying that quite yet, problem." I'm not saying that quite yet, but it's certainly plausible. but it's certainly plausible. but it's certainly plausible. Yeah. So, you have to get a lot of this Yeah. So, you have to get a lot of this Yeah. So, you have to get a lot of this kind of weird matter. You need a lot of kind of weird matter. You need a lot of kind of weird matter. You need a lot of this weird matter to send a person this weird matter to send a person this weird matter to send a person through, right? That's going to be through, right? That's going to be through, right? That's going to be really telling. So, I'm not saying we're really telling. So, I'm not saying we're really telling. So, I'm not saying we're it's simply an engineering problem, but it's simply an engineering problem, but it's simply an engineering problem, but it's all within the realm of plausible it's all within the realm of plausible it's all within the realm of plausible physics. I think I I think that's super physics. I think I I think that's super physics. I think I I think that's super interesting. I think it's obviously interesting. I think it's obviously interesting. I think it's obviously intricately deeply connected to black intricately deeply connected to black intricately deeply connected to black holes. H is is it fair to think of holes. H is is it fair to think of holes. H is is it fair to think of wormholes as just two black holes that wormholes as just two black holes that wormholes as just two black holes that are connected somehow? Is that people are connected somehow? Is that people are connected somehow? Is that people have looked at that? They tend to be have looked at that? They tend to be have looked at that? They tend to be non-traversible wormholes. They're non-traversible wormholes. They're non-traversible wormholes. They're they're not trying to prop them open. Um they're not trying to prop them open. Um they're not trying to prop them open. Um but yeah, I mean some of this

but yeah, I mean some of this but yeah, I mean some of this er equals EPR, quantum entanglement, er equals EPR, quantum entanglement, er equals EPR, quantum entanglement, they're trying to connect black holes. they're trying to connect black holes. they're trying to connect black holes. Um you know, it's it's really cool. It's Um you know, it's it's really cool. It's Um you know, it's it's really cool. It's not quite again it's not quite following not quite again it's not quite following not quite again it's not quite following the chalk. And by that I mean we can't the chalk. And by that I mean we can't the chalk. And by that I mean we can't exactly start at a concrete place exactly start at a concrete place exactly start at a concrete place calculate all the way to the end yet. So calculate all the way to the end yet. So calculate all the way to the end yet. So if I may read off some of the ideas that if I may read off some of the ideas that if I may read off some of the ideas that kept throwing his head about how to kept throwing his head about how to kept throwing his head about how to artificially construct wormholes. So the artificially construct wormholes. So the artificially construct wormholes. So the first method involves quantum mechanics first method involves quantum mechanics first method involves quantum mechanics and the concept of quantum foam. And and the concept of quantum foam. And and the concept of quantum foam. And this is the thing we've been talking this is the thing we've been talking this is the thing we've been talking about. Now to create a wormhole these about. Now to create a wormhole these about. Now to create a wormhole these tiny wormholes would need to be enlarged tiny wormholes would need to be enlarged tiny wormholes would need to be enlarged and stabilized to be useful for travel. and stabilized to be useful for travel. and stabilized to be useful for travel. But the exact method of doing this But the exact method of doing this But the exact method of doing this remains entirely theoretical. No remains entirely theoretical. No remains entirely theoretical. No You think so? So this these tiny You think so? So this these tiny You think so? So this these tiny wormholes that are basically um for the wormholes that are basically um for the wormholes that are basically um for the quantum entanglement of the particles quantum entanglement of the particles quantum entanglement of the particles somehow enlarged. somehow enlarged. somehow enlarged. Man, playing with the topology of the Man, playing with the topology of the Man, playing with the topology of the Swiss cheese would be so interesting. Swiss cheese would be so interesting. Swiss cheese would be so interesting. Even to get a hint. Mhm. That would be Even to get a hint. Mhm. That would be Even to get a hint. Mhm. That would be like top three if not one of maybe even like top three if not one of maybe even like top three if not one of maybe even number one question for me to ask if I number one question for me to ask if I number one question for me to ask if I got a a chance to ask an omnicient got a a chance to ask an omnicient got a a chance to ask an omnicient being. omnicient being of like a being. omnicient being of like a being. omnicient being of like a question that I can get answer to. Mhm.

question that I can get answer to. Mhm. question that I can get answer to. Mhm. Maybe with some visualization. Mhm. Like Maybe with some visualization. Mhm. Like Maybe with some visualization. Mhm. Like the shape the topology of the universe. the shape the topology of the universe. the shape the topology of the universe. Yeah. Like but like I need some details. Yeah. Like but like I need some details. Yeah. Like but like I need some details. Unfortunately, I'll get an answer that I Unfortunately, I'll get an answer that I Unfortunately, I'll get an answer that I can't possibly comprehend. Right. It's a can't possibly comprehend. Right. It's a can't possibly comprehend. Right. It's a hyperbolic manifold that's identified hyperbolic manifold that's identified hyperbolic manifold that's identified across Exactly. across Exactly. across Exactly. You need to be able to ask a follow-up You need to be able to ask a follow-up You need to be able to ask a follow-up question. Exactly. Yeah. That would be question. Exactly. Yeah. That would be question. Exactly. Yeah. That would be so interesting. Anyway, um classical so interesting. Anyway, um classical so interesting. Anyway, um classical quantum strategy. The second approach quantum strategy. The second approach quantum strategy. The second approach combines classical physics with quantum combines classical physics with quantum combines classical physics with quantum effects. This method would this method effects. This method would this method effects. This method would this method would require an advanced civilization would require an advanced civilization would require an advanced civilization to manipulate quantum gravity effects in to manipulate quantum gravity effects in to manipulate quantum gravity effects in ways we don't yet understand. There's a ways we don't yet understand. There's a ways we don't yet understand. There's a lot of in ways we don't understand. lot of in ways we don't understand. lot of in ways we don't understand. Yeah, there's a lot of And then there's Yeah, there's a lot of And then there's Yeah, there's a lot of And then there's exotic matter requirements. There's a exotic matter requirements. There's a exotic matter requirements. There's a lot of But I can tell you I'm pretty lot of But I can tell you I'm pretty lot of But I can tell you I'm pretty sure all of them have in common the sure all of them have in common the sure all of them have in common the feature that they're saying here's what feature that they're saying here's what feature that they're saying here's what I want my wormhole to look like first. I want my wormhole to look like first. I want my wormhole to look like first. So it's like saying I want to build a So it's like saying I want to build a So it's like saying I want to build a building first. So they ar they building first. So they ar they building first. So they ar they construct there's an architecture of the construct there's an architecture of the construct there's an architecture of the spaceime that they're after and then spaceime that they're after and then spaceime that they're after and then they reverse the Einstein equations to they reverse the Einstein equations to they reverse the Einstein equations to say what must matter and energy uh what say what must matter and energy uh what say what must matter and energy uh what are the conditions that I impose on are the conditions that I impose on are the conditions that I impose on matter and energy to build this matter and energy to build this matter and energy to build this architecture which is unfortunately a architecture which is unfortunately a architecture which is unfortunately a very early step of figuring out but it's very early step of figuring out but it's very early step of figuring out but it's important because it's how they realized important because it's how they realized important because it's how they realized oh wow they have to have these negative oh wow they have to have these negative oh wow they have to have these negative energies they have to violate certain uh energies they have to violate certain uh energies they have to violate certain uh energy conditions that we often assume energy conditions that we often assume energy conditions that we often assume are true and then you either say, "Oh, are true and then you either say, "Oh, are true and then you either say, "Oh, well then all bets are off they'll never well then all bets are off they'll never well then all bets are off they'll never exist or you uh look a little harder and

exist or you uh look a little harder and exist or you uh look a little harder and you say, "Well, I can violate that you say, "Well, I can violate that you say, "Well, I can violate that energy condition without it being that energy condition without it being that energy condition without it being that big a deal." And um and again, quantum big a deal." And um and again, quantum big a deal." And um and again, quantum mechanics often does violate those mechanics often does violate those mechanics often does violate those energy conditions. So, do you think the energy conditions. So, do you think the energy conditions. So, do you think the studying of black holes and some of the studying of black holes and some of the studying of black holes and some of the topics we've been talking about will topics we've been talking about will topics we've been talking about will allow us to travel faster than the speed allow us to travel faster than the speed allow us to travel faster than the speed of light or travel close to the speed of of light or travel close to the speed of of light or travel close to the speed of light or do some kind of really light or do some kind of really light or do some kind of really innovative breakthroughs on the innovative breakthroughs on the innovative breakthroughs on the propulsion technology we use for propulsion technology we use for propulsion technology we use for traveling in space? Yeah. I mean, traveling in space? Yeah. I mean, traveling in space? Yeah. I mean, sometimes I assign in an advanced sometimes I assign in an advanced sometimes I assign in an advanced general relativity class the assignment general relativity class the assignment general relativity class the assignment of inventing a warp drive and it's kind of inventing a warp drive and it's kind of inventing a warp drive and it's kind of similar. So the idea is uh here's a of similar. So the idea is uh here's a of similar. So the idea is uh here's a place you want to get to and can you place you want to get to and can you place you want to get to and can you contract the spaceime between you with contract the spaceime between you with contract the spaceime between you with some some kind of some something some some kind of some something some some kind of some something antithetical to dark energy the opposite antithetical to dark energy the opposite antithetical to dark energy the opposite and skip across and then push it back and skip across and then push it back and skip across and then push it back out again. That's all can you can do out again. That's all can you can do out again. That's all can you can do that in the context of general that in the context of general that in the context of general relativity. Now I I can't find the relativity. Now I I can't find the relativity. Now I I can't find the energy that has these properties but I energy that has these properties but I energy that has these properties but I also can't find dark energy. So, so also can't find dark energy. So, so also can't find dark energy. So, so we've already been confronted with we've already been confronted with we've already been confronted with something that we look at the spaceime.

something that we look at the spaceime. something that we look at the spaceime. The spaceime is expanding ever faster. The spaceime is expanding ever faster. The spaceime is expanding ever faster. We say, "What could possibly do that?" We say, "What could possibly do that?" We say, "What could possibly do that?" We don't know what it is. But I can tell We don't know what it is. But I can tell We don't know what it is. But I can tell you about its pressure. I can tell you you about its pressure. I can tell you you about its pressure. I can tell you certain features about it. And I just certain features about it. And I just certain features about it. And I just call it dark energy, but I actually have call it dark energy, but I actually have call it dark energy, but I actually have no idea. It's just that name's just a no idea. It's just that name's just a no idea. It's just that name's just a proxy for what this it should be called proxy for what this it should be called proxy for what this it should be called invisible because it's not actually invisible because it's not actually invisible because it's not actually dark. It's in this room. It's not hard dark. It's in this room. It's not hard dark. It's in this room. It's not hard to see through. It's not dark. It's It's to see through. It's not dark. It's It's to see through. It's not dark. It's It's literally invisible. Um, so maybe that literally invisible. Um, so maybe that literally invisible. Um, so maybe that was a misnomer. But the point being, I was a misnomer. But the point being, I was a misnomer. But the point being, I still don't fundamentally know what it still don't fundamentally know what it still don't fundamentally know what it is. That's not so terrible. That's is. That's not so terrible. That's is. That's not so terrible. That's that's the state of the world that we're that's the state of the world that we're that's the state of the world that we're actually in. So maybe warp drive is just actually in. So maybe warp drive is just actually in. So maybe warp drive is just kind of like a version of that. I I kind of like a version of that. I I kind of like a version of that. I I don't know what form of matter can do don't know what form of matter can do don't know what form of matter can do that yet, but at least I can identify that yet, but at least I can identify that yet, but at least I can identify the features that are needed. So the features that are needed. So the features that are needed. So figuring out what dark energy is might figuring out what dark energy is might figuring out what dark energy is might land some clues. Yeah, it actually it land some clues. Yeah, it actually it land some clues. Yeah, it actually it might. Um, it it is it is positive might. Um, it it is it is positive might. Um, it it is it is positive energy. Um um and a negative pressure energy. Um um and a negative pressure energy. Um um and a negative pressure which is kind of like a rubber band sort which is kind of like a rubber band sort which is kind of like a rubber band sort of quality. We think of pressure as of quality. We think of pressure as of quality. We think of pressure as pushing things outward and dark energy pushing things outward and dark energy pushing things outward and dark energy has a very strange sort of quality that has a very strange sort of quality that has a very strange sort of quality that as things move outward you feel more as things move outward you feel more as things move outward you feel more energy as opposed to less energy. The energy as opposed to less energy. The energy as opposed to less energy. The energy doesn't get lower, it gets more.

energy doesn't get lower, it gets more. energy doesn't get lower, it gets more. And um but it so it doesn't have the And um but it so it doesn't have the And um but it so it doesn't have the right features for the wormhole. But right features for the wormhole. But right features for the wormhole. But those are some pretty surprising those are some pretty surprising those are some pretty surprising features. And we we again can conjecture features. And we we again can conjecture features. And we we again can conjecture like oh hey you know the quantum energy like oh hey you know the quantum energy like oh hey you know the quantum energy of the vacuum kind of behaves that way. of the vacuum kind of behaves that way. of the vacuum kind of behaves that way. That would be a great resolution to the That would be a great resolution to the That would be a great resolution to the dark energy problem. It's just the dark energy problem. It's just the dark energy problem. It's just the energy of empty space and it's the energy of empty space and it's the energy of empty space and it's the quantum energy of empty space. That's an quantum energy of empty space. That's an quantum energy of empty space. That's an excellent answer. The problem is is by excellent answer. The problem is is by excellent answer. The problem is is by all our methods and all the all our methods and all the all our methods and all the understanding we have that energy is understanding we have that energy is understanding we have that energy is either really really huge huge either really really huge huge either really really huge huge um way bigger than what we see today or um way bigger than what we see today or um way bigger than what we see today or it's like it's like it's like zero. So that's a numbers problem. We zero. So that's a numbers problem. We zero. So that's a numbers problem. We can't can't can't naturally fine-tune the energy of empty naturally fine-tune the energy of empty naturally fine-tune the energy of empty space to give us this really weird value space to give us this really weird value space to give us this really weird value so that we just happen to be seeing it so that we just happen to be seeing it so that we just happen to be seeing it today. But again we can think of a kind today. But again we can think of a kind today. But again we can think of a kind of dark energy that exists. Um so the of dark energy that exists. Um so the of dark energy that exists. Um so the question is just why is it it becomes question is just why is it it becomes question is just why is it it becomes why is it such such a weird value. Um why is it such such a weird value. Um why is it such such a weird value. Um not how is this conceivable because we not how is this conceivable because we not how is this conceivable because we can't conceive of it. Yeah. But if it's can't conceive of it. Yeah. But if it's can't conceive of it. Yeah. But if it's a weird value that means there is a a weird value that means there is a a weird value that means there is a phenomena we don't understand. Yes.

phenomena we don't understand. Yes. phenomena we don't understand. Yes. There's absolutely a phenomenon. There's absolutely a phenomenon. There's absolutely a phenomenon. Nobody's going to say they're happy with Nobody's going to say they're happy with Nobody's going to say they're happy with that. We're all going to say there's that. We're all going to say there's that. We're all going to say there's something we don't understand. which is something we don't understand. which is something we don't understand. which is why we look to the extra dimensions why we look to the extra dimensions why we look to the extra dimensions because then you can say, "Oh, maybe it because then you can say, "Oh, maybe it because then you can say, "Oh, maybe it has to do with the size of the extra has to do with the size of the extra has to do with the size of the extra dimensions or the way that they're dimensions or the way that they're dimensions or the way that they're wrapped up or um and so maybe there it's wrapped up or um and so maybe there it's wrapped up or um and so maybe there it's foisted on us because of the the foisted on us because of the the foisted on us because of the the topology, the connectedness of the topology, the connectedness of the topology, the connectedness of the higher dimensional space. These are all higher dimensional space. These are all higher dimensional space. These are all things that we're exploring. Nobody's things that we're exploring. Nobody's things that we're exploring. Nobody's landed one that's so compelling that uh landed one that's so compelling that uh landed one that's so compelling that uh your friends like it as much as you do." your friends like it as much as you do." your friends like it as much as you do." What what what do you think would lead What what what do you think would lead What what what do you think would lead to the breakthroughs on dark matter and to the breakthroughs on dark matter and to the breakthroughs on dark matter and dark energy? I think dark matter might dark energy? I think dark matter might dark energy? I think dark matter might be be be uh less peculiar uh less peculiar uh less peculiar um than dark energy. My hope is that um than dark energy. My hope is that um than dark energy. My hope is that they're tied together. That's that would they're tied together. That's that would they're tied together. That's that would be very gratifying. These aren't just be very gratifying. These aren't just be very gratifying. These aren't just separate problems coming from different separate problems coming from different separate problems coming from different sectors, but that they're actually sectors, but that they're actually sectors, but that they're actually connected. um that the reason the dark connected. um that the reason the dark connected. um that the reason the dark matter is where it is in terms of how matter is where it is in terms of how matter is where it is in terms of how much it's contributing to the universe much it's contributing to the universe much it's contributing to the universe is is connected with why the dark energy is is connected with why the dark energy is is connected with why the dark energy is showing up right now. I would love is showing up right now. I would love is showing up right now. I would love that. That would be a solution like no that. That would be a solution like no that. That would be a solution like no other, right? And and like I said, if it other, right? And and like I said, if it other, right? And and like I said, if it revealed something about dark revealed something about dark revealed something about dark dimensions, you know, that's that would dimensions, you know, that's that would dimensions, you know, that's that would be a happy day. Correct me if I'm wrong.

be a happy day. Correct me if I'm wrong. be a happy day. Correct me if I'm wrong. Dark matter could be localized in space. Dark matter could be localized in space. Dark matter could be localized in space. Yeah, dark matter is localized in space. Yeah, dark matter is localized in space. Yeah, dark matter is localized in space. So, it clumps. I mean, it doesn't it So, it clumps. I mean, it doesn't it So, it clumps. I mean, it doesn't it doesn't clump a lot, you know, but but I doesn't clump a lot, you know, but but I doesn't clump a lot, you know, but but I mean, it's around the galaxy. It's in a mean, it's around the galaxy. It's in a mean, it's around the galaxy. It's in a halo around the galaxy. So, people get halo around the galaxy. So, people get halo around the galaxy. So, people get increasingly more confident that it increasingly more confident that it increasingly more confident that it doesn't Oh, it's really compelling. doesn't Oh, it's really compelling. doesn't Oh, it's really compelling. Yeah. I mean, you see um these images of Yeah. I mean, you see um these images of Yeah. I mean, you see um these images of uh galaxies that clusters that that pass uh galaxies that clusters that that pass uh galaxies that clusters that that pass through each other and you can see where through each other and you can see where through each other and you can see where the light is, the luminous matter is the light is, the luminous matter is the light is, the luminous matter is distributed. And then by looking at the distributed. And then by looking at the distributed. And then by looking at the gravitational lensing which shows you gravitational lensing which shows you gravitational lensing which shows you where the actual mass is distributed so where the actual mass is distributed so where the actual mass is distributed so that light bends around the most massive that light bends around the most massive that light bends around the most massive parts in a particular way. So you can parts in a particular way. So you can parts in a particular way. So you can reconstruct where the mass is reconstruct where the mass is reconstruct where the mass is gravitationally quite separate from gravitationally quite separate from gravitationally quite separate from looking at the luminous matter which is looking at the luminous matter which is looking at the luminous matter which is not dark and they are not dark and they are not dark and they are separate because the stuff as they pass separate because the stuff as they pass separate because the stuff as they pass through each other the interacting stuff through each other the interacting stuff through each other the interacting stuff the luminous stuff collides and gets the luminous stuff collides and gets the luminous stuff collides and gets stuck and you can see it colliding and stuck and you can see it colliding and stuck and you can see it colliding and lighting up the dark stuff which by lighting up the dark stuff which by lighting up the dark stuff which by definition it's dark because it doesn't definition it's dark because it doesn't definition it's dark because it doesn't interact passes right through it's right interact passes right through it's right interact passes right through it's right through each other right and this is I through each other right and this is I through each other right and this is I mean it's so compelling And there's lots mean it's so compelling And there's lots mean it's so compelling And there's lots of other um observations, but but that of other um observations, but but that of other um observations, but but that one is just before you just look at it, one is just before you just look at it, one is just before you just look at it, you can see that the mass is distributed you can see that the mass is distributed you can see that the mass is distributed differently than the interacting differently than the interacting differently than the interacting luminous matter. So, uh dark energy is luminous matter. So, uh dark energy is luminous matter. So, uh dark energy is harder to get a hold of. Dark energy is harder to get a hold of. Dark energy is harder to get a hold of. Dark energy is much harder to get a hold of. But, you much harder to get a hold of. But, you much harder to get a hold of. But, you know, I mean, the Higs field could have

know, I mean, the Higs field could have know, I mean, the Higs field could have also explained dark energy. Yeah. Um, if also explained dark energy. Yeah. Um, if also explained dark energy. Yeah. Um, if you've heard of the God particle, I you've heard of the God particle, I you've heard of the God particle, I don't know if you know the originally don't know if you know the originally don't know if you know the originally Leon Letterman co-authored a book and he Leon Letterman co-authored a book and he Leon Letterman co-authored a book and he wanted to call it the goddamn particle wanted to call it the goddamn particle wanted to call it the goddamn particle because I couldn't find it and his his because I couldn't find it and his his because I couldn't find it and his his publisher convinced him to call it the publisher convinced him to call it the publisher convinced him to call it the God particle. Uh, and he said he said God particle. Uh, and he said he said God particle. Uh, and he said he said they managed to offend two groups, those they managed to offend two groups, those they managed to offend two groups, those that believed in God and those that that believed in God and those that that believed in God and those that didn't. That's a good line, too. Oh, didn't. That's a good line, too. Oh, didn't. That's a good line, too. Oh, boy. He was very funny. He was very boy. He was very funny. He was very boy. He was very funny. He was very witty. So, you know, Higs turned out to witty. So, you know, Higs turned out to witty. So, you know, Higs turned out to be Higs great discovery. I mean, be Higs great discovery. I mean, be Higs great discovery. I mean, unbelievable. Um, there it was. Build unbelievable. Um, there it was. Build unbelievable. Um, there it was. Build this massive collider in CERN in this massive collider in CERN in this massive collider in CERN in Switzerland and there it is. Switzerland and there it is. Switzerland and there it is. Unbelievable. Kind of where you expect Unbelievable. Kind of where you expect Unbelievable. Kind of where you expect it to be. Now, the reason I say it could it to be. Now, the reason I say it could it to be. Now, the reason I say it could be dark energy is because the Higs be dark energy is because the Higs be dark energy is because the Higs particle like a particle of light also particle like a particle of light also particle like a particle of light also has a field like an electromagnetic has a field like an electromagnetic has a field like an electromagnetic field. So light can have this field field. So light can have this field field. So light can have this field that's distributed through all space, that's distributed through all space, that's distributed through all space, electric magnetic field, and you shake electric magnetic field, and you shake electric magnetic field, and you shake it around and it creates little it around and it creates little it around and it creates little particles. So the Higs field is actually particles. So the Higs field is actually particles. So the Higs field is actually more important than the Higs particle, more important than the Higs particle, more important than the Higs particle, the complement to the Higs particle the complement to the Higs particle the complement to the Higs particle because that's what you and I connect because that's what you and I connect because that's what you and I connect with to get mass in our atoms. So the with to get mass in our atoms. So the with to get mass in our atoms. So the idea is that our atoms are interacting idea is that our atoms are interacting idea is that our atoms are interacting with this gooey field that's everywhere.

with this gooey field that's everywhere. with this gooey field that's everywhere. Mhm. And um and that's what's giving us Mhm. And um and that's what's giving us Mhm. And um and that's what's giving us this experience of inertial mass, but we this experience of inertial mass, but we this experience of inertial mass, but we don't actually inter there's not a lot don't actually inter there's not a lot don't actually inter there's not a lot of quanta lying around. There's not a of quanta lying around. There's not a of quanta lying around. There's not a lot of Higs particles lying around cuz lot of Higs particles lying around cuz lot of Higs particles lying around cuz they decay. So it's the field that's they decay. So it's the field that's they decay. So it's the field that's really important. And that field could really important. And that field could really important. And that field could act like a dark energy. It's just act like a dark energy. It's just act like a dark energy. It's just not in the right place, meaning it's not not in the right place, meaning it's not not in the right place, meaning it's not at the right the energy's too high in to at the right the energy's too high in to at the right the energy's too high in to explain this tiny tiny value today. And explain this tiny tiny value today. And explain this tiny tiny value today. And again, we're back to this mismatch. It's again, we're back to this mismatch. It's again, we're back to this mismatch. It's not that we can't conceive of forms of not that we can't conceive of forms of not that we can't conceive of forms of dark energy, it's that we can't make one dark energy, it's that we can't make one dark energy, it's that we can't make one where we where we're finding it. So, uh where we where we're finding it. So, uh where we where we're finding it. So, uh I wonder if you can comment on something I wonder if you can comment on something I wonder if you can comment on something that I've I've heard recently. There's that I've I've heard recently. There's that I've I've heard recently. There's some people who say some people who say some people who say uh people outside of physics say that, uh people outside of physics say that, uh people outside of physics say that, you know, dark matter and dark energy is you know, dark matter and dark energy is you know, dark matter and dark energy is just something physicists made up. Yeah. just something physicists made up. Yeah. just something physicists made up. Yeah. to uh put a label on the fact that they to uh put a label on the fact that they to uh put a label on the fact that they don't understand don't understand don't understand a very large fraction of the universe a very large fraction of the universe a very large fraction of the universe and how it operates. Is there some truth and how it operates. Is there some truth and how it operates. Is there some truth to that? What's your response to that?

to that? What's your response to that? to that? What's your response to that? There's some truth to it, but but it's There's some truth to it, but but it's There's some truth to it, but but it's really missing a huge point, which is really missing a huge point, which is really missing a huge point, which is that if we did not understand the that if we did not understand the that if we did not understand the universe as incredibly precisely as we universe as incredibly precisely as we universe as incredibly precisely as we do, it's stunning that there's modern do, it's stunning that there's modern do, it's stunning that there's modern precision cosmology. It's absolutely precision cosmology. It's absolutely precision cosmology. It's absolutely incredible. uh when Kobe which is an incredible. uh when Kobe which is an incredible. uh when Kobe which is an experiment that measured the light left experiment that measured the light left experiment that measured the light left over from uh the big bang in the 80s over from uh the big bang in the 80s over from uh the big bang in the 80s first revealed its observations I mean first revealed its observations I mean first revealed its observations I mean there was applause you know people were there was applause you know people were there was applause you know people were cheering right it was unbelievable we cheering right it was unbelievable we cheering right it was unbelievable we had predicted and measured the light had predicted and measured the light had predicted and measured the light left over from the big bang and because left over from the big bang and because left over from the big bang and because of all the precision that's happened of all the precision that's happened of all the precision that's happened since then that's how we're able to since then that's how we're able to since then that's how we're able to confront that there's things that we confront that there's things that we confront that there's things that we don't know and that's how we're able to don't know and that's how we're able to don't know and that's how we're able to confront like, "Wow, this is really confront like, "Wow, this is really confront like, "Wow, this is really everything everybody has ever seen and everything everybody has ever seen and everything everybody has ever seen and ever will see as far as we understand ever will see as far as we understand ever will see as far as we understand makes up less than 5% of what's out makes up less than 5% of what's out makes up less than 5% of what's out there." Yeah. And and so I would say there." Yeah. And and so I would say there." Yeah. And and so I would say yes, we're just giving proxy names to yes, we're just giving proxy names to yes, we're just giving proxy names to things we don't understand. But to things we don't understand. But to things we don't understand. But to dismiss that as some kind of oh, they dismiss that as some kind of oh, they dismiss that as some kind of oh, they just don't know that it is actually just don't know that it is actually just don't know that it is actually quite the opposite. It is a stunning quite the opposite. It is a stunning quite the opposite. It is a stunning achievement to be able to stare that achievement to be able to stare that achievement to be able to stare that down and to have that um so precise and down and to have that um so precise and down and to have that um so precise and so compelling that we're able to to to so compelling that we're able to to to so compelling that we're able to to to know that there's dark energy and dark know that there's dark energy and dark know that there's dark energy and dark matter. I don't think those are disputed matter. I don't think those are disputed matter. I don't think those are disputed anymore and they were up until, you anymore and they were up until, you anymore and they were up until, you know, recently. They were still know, recently. They were still know, recently. They were still disputed. I think we're still at such disputed. I think we're still at such disputed. I think we're still at such early stages where we're not really even early stages where we're not really even early stages where we're not really even at a good explanation. Right. You've

at a good explanation. Right. You've at a good explanation. Right. You've mentioned a few. Well, I can think of mentioned a few. Well, I can think of mentioned a few. Well, I can think of examples of dark matter that exist that examples of dark matter that exist that examples of dark matter that exist that we really know for sure are real we really know for sure are real we really know for sure are real versions of dark matter, like nutrinos. versions of dark matter, like nutrinos. versions of dark matter, like nutrinos. Right now, they're radiating through us. Right now, they're radiating through us. Right now, they're radiating through us. That's very well confirmed. And they're That's very well confirmed. And they're That's very well confirmed. And they're technically dark. They don't interact technically dark. They don't interact technically dark. They don't interact with light and so we can't see them. with light and so we can't see them. with light and so we can't see them. Right now, they're raining through us. Right now, they're raining through us. Right now, they're raining through us. If we could see the dark matter in this If we could see the dark matter in this If we could see the dark matter in this room and we absolutely know is coming room and we absolutely know is coming room and we absolutely know is coming from the sun, it would be wild. Be a from the sun, it would be wild. Be a from the sun, it would be wild. Be a rainstorm, you know, but they're just rainstorm, you know, but they're just rainstorm, you know, but they're just invisible to us. Um, mostly they pass invisible to us. Um, mostly they pass invisible to us. Um, mostly they pass through our bodies. Mostly they pass through our bodies. Mostly they pass through our bodies. Mostly they pass through the earth. Occasionally they get through the earth. Occasionally they get through the earth. Occasionally they get caught in some fancy detector experiment caught in some fancy detector experiment caught in some fancy detector experiment that somebody built specifically to that somebody built specifically to that somebody built specifically to catch solar. So dark matter is known to catch solar. So dark matter is known to catch solar. So dark matter is known to exist. It's just again there's not exist. It's just again there's not exist. It's just again there's not enough of it. It's not the right mass to enough of it. It's not the right mass to enough of it. It's not the right mass to be the dark matter that makes up this be the dark matter that makes up this be the dark matter that makes up this missing component. I wanted to say that missing component. I wanted to say that missing component. I wanted to say that I was been recently fascinated by the I was been recently fascinated by the I was been recently fascinated by the flat earth people because there's been a flat earth people because there's been a flat earth people because there's been a split in the community. Mhm.

split in the community. Mhm. split in the community. Mhm. First of all, the community is First of all, the community is First of all, the community is fascinating study of human psychology. fascinating study of human psychology. fascinating study of human psychology. uh they did uh they did uh they did um this experiment where I I forgot who um this experiment where I I forgot who um this experiment where I I forgot who funded it, but they sent like physicists funded it, but they sent like physicists funded it, but they sent like physicists and flatearthers Mhm. to Antarctica. and flatearthers Mhm. to Antarctica. and flatearthers Mhm. to Antarctica. Really? And this split happened because Really? And this split happened because Really? And this split happened because half of them got converted into round half of them got converted into round half of them got converted into round earthers. Wow. Well, good for them. And earthers. Wow. Well, good for them. And earthers. Wow. Well, good for them. And then but then the other half just went then but then the other half just went then but then the other half just went that it was all a sigh out. Really? that it was all a sigh out. Really? that it was all a sigh out. Really? That's fascinating. Did somebody film That's fascinating. Did somebody film That's fascinating. Did somebody film that? That'd be a great documentary. that? That'd be a great documentary. that? That'd be a great documentary. Yeah, it did. They did. I made a whole Yeah, it did. They did. I made a whole Yeah, it did. They did. I made a whole thing. This was just at the end of last thing. This was just at the end of last thing. This was just at the end of last year. There was a big I meaning cuz I I year. There was a big I meaning cuz I I year. There was a big I meaning cuz I I I think that's such a clean study of I think that's such a clean study of I think that's such a clean study of conspiracy theories because like there's conspiracy theories because like there's conspiracy theories because like there's so many conspiracy theories have some so many conspiracy theories have some so many conspiracy theories have some inkling of truth in them. inkling of truth in them. inkling of truth in them. Like there's some elements about the way Like there's some elements about the way Like there's some elements about the way governments operate or human psychology governments operate or human psychology governments operate or human psychology that there's it's too messy. Flat Earth that there's it's too messy. Flat Earth that there's it's too messy. Flat Earth to me is just clean. It's like spaghetti to me is just clean. It's like spaghetti to me is just clean. It's like spaghetti monster or something like right. It's monster or something like right. It's monster or something like right. It's just a cleanly wrong thing. So it's a just a cleanly wrong thing. So it's a just a cleanly wrong thing. So it's a nice way to understand the psychology nice way to understand the psychology nice way to understand the psychology how a large number of people can believe how a large number of people can believe how a large number of people can believe a thing. Yeah. And why do they want to a thing. Yeah. And why do they want to a thing. Yeah. And why do they want to believe a thing? What's very interesting believe a thing? What's very interesting believe a thing? What's very interesting is um use trying to use rational is um use trying to use rational is um use trying to use rational arguments. So I that makes it even more arguments. So I that makes it even more arguments. So I that makes it even more confounding to me. I would understand confounding to me. I would understand confounding to me. I would understand more somebody who just said, "Look, I more somebody who just said, "Look, I more somebody who just said, "Look, I have faith and I believe these things have faith and I believe these things have faith and I believe these things and it's not about reason and it's not and it's not about reason and it's not and it's not about reason and it's not about logic and

about logic and about logic and okay. I mean, I don't relate to it, but okay. I mean, I don't relate to it, but okay. I mean, I don't relate to it, but okay." Um, but to say I'm going to use okay." Um, but to say I'm going to use okay." Um, but to say I'm going to use reason and reason and reason and logic and to prove to you this logic and to prove to you this logic and to prove to you this completely orthogonal conclusion that I completely orthogonal conclusion that I completely orthogonal conclusion that I find really interesting. So, there's find really interesting. So, there's find really interesting. So, there's some kind of romance. There's about some kind of romance. There's about some kind of romance. There's about reason and logic. Yeah. But also there's reason and logic. Yeah. But also there's reason and logic. Yeah. But also there's a questioning of institutions that's a questioning of institutions that's a questioning of institutions that's really interesting and important to really interesting and important to really interesting and important to understand. Well, I mean I understand. Well, I mean I understand. Well, I mean I I actually I actually I actually appreciate the appreciate the appreciate the skeptics's stance. I don't scientists skeptics's stance. I don't scientists skeptics's stance. I don't scientists also have to be skeptics. We have to be also have to be skeptics. We have to be also have to be skeptics. We have to be childlike, naive, and somewhat in some childlike, naive, and somewhat in some childlike, naive, and somewhat in some sense really open to anything, right? sense really open to anything, right? sense really open to anything, right? Otherwise, you're not going to be a Otherwise, you're not going to be a Otherwise, you're not going to be a flexible. You're not going to be at the flexible. You're not going to be at the flexible. You're not going to be at the forefront. But but also to be skeptical. forefront. But but also to be skeptical. forefront. But but also to be skeptical. Um, so I have respect for I guess I Um, so I have respect for I guess I Um, so I have respect for I guess I that's exactly what I'm saying is more that's exactly what I'm saying is more that's exactly what I'm saying is more confusing because to invoke skepticism confusing because to invoke skepticism confusing because to invoke skepticism and then to want to use rational and then to want to use rational and then to want to use rational argument. What is the other component argument. What is the other component argument. What is the other component that's that's going into this because as that's that's going into this because as that's that's going into this because as you said this is something that's easily you said this is something that's easily you said this is something that's easily verified. I mean, we have people in verified. I mean, we have people in verified. I mean, we have people in space. So, you have to believe a lot space. So, you have to believe a lot space. So, you have to believe a lot more machinery more machinery more machinery um that's a lot more difficult to um that's a lot more difficult to um that's a lot more difficult to justify, justify, justify, explain as a wild conspiracy. So, explain as a wild conspiracy. So, explain as a wild conspiracy. So, there's something about the conspiracy there's something about the conspiracy there's something about the conspiracy that stirs an emo a positive emotion. I that stirs an emo a positive emotion. I that stirs an emo a positive emotion. I think one of the most incredible things think one of the most incredible things think one of the most incredible things I have to talk to you about this, one of I have to talk to you about this, one of I have to talk to you about this, one of the most incredible things that humans the most incredible things that humans the most incredible things that humans have ever accomplished is LIGO. Hm.

have ever accomplished is LIGO. Hm. have ever accomplished is LIGO. Hm. We have to talk about gravitational We have to talk about gravitational We have to talk about gravitational waves. And the the very fact that we're waves. And the the very fact that we're waves. And the the very fact that we're able to detect gravitational waves from able to detect gravitational waves from able to detect gravitational waves from the early the early the early universe is effing wild. It's crazy. universe is effing wild. It's crazy. universe is effing wild. It's crazy. Yeah. Can you explain what gravitational Yeah. Can you explain what gravitational Yeah. Can you explain what gravitational waves are? And we should mention you waves are? And we should mention you waves are? And we should mention you wrote a book about the humans about the wrote a book about the humans about the wrote a book about the humans about the whole journey of detecting gravitational whole journey of detecting gravitational whole journey of detecting gravitational waves and LIGO Black Hole Blues is the waves and LIGO Black Hole Blues is the waves and LIGO Black Hole Blues is the book. But can you talk about book. But can you talk about book. But can you talk about gravitational waves and how the hell gravitational waves and how the hell gravitational waves and how the hell we're able to actually do it? Let's just we're able to actually do it? Let's just we're able to actually do it? Let's just start with the idea of gravitational start with the idea of gravitational start with the idea of gravitational waves. I have to move around a lot of waves. I have to move around a lot of waves. I have to move around a lot of mass to make anything interesting mass to make anything interesting mass to make anything interesting happening in gravity. I mean, if you happening in gravity. I mean, if you happening in gravity. I mean, if you think about it, gravity is incredibly think about it, gravity is incredibly think about it, gravity is incredibly weak. I mean, right now, the whole Earth weak. I mean, right now, the whole Earth weak. I mean, right now, the whole Earth is pulling on me and I can still get out is pulling on me and I can still get out is pulling on me and I can still get out of this chair and walk around. Like, of this chair and walk around. Like, of this chair and walk around. Like, that's insane. The whole Earth, you that's insane. The whole Earth, you that's insane. The whole Earth, you know, gravity's weak, right? Um, so to know, gravity's weak, right? Um, so to know, gravity's weak, right? Um, so to get something going on in gravity, I get something going on in gravity, I get something going on in gravity, I need like big objects and things like need like big objects and things like need like big objects and things like black holes. So the idea is if black black holes. So the idea is if black black holes. So the idea is if black holes curve space and time around them holes curve space and time around them holes curve space and time around them in the way that we've been describing in the way that we've been describing in the way that we've been describing things follow along the curves in space.

things follow along the curves in space. things follow along the curves in space. If the black holes move around, the If the black holes move around, the If the black holes move around, the curves have to follow them, right? But curves have to follow them, right? But curves have to follow them, right? But they can't travel faster than the speed they can't travel faster than the speed they can't travel faster than the speed of light either. So what happens is as of light either. So what happens is as of light either. So what happens is as black holes, let's say, move around, black holes, let's say, move around, black holes, let's say, move around, maybe I've got two black holes in orbit maybe I've got two black holes in orbit maybe I've got two black holes in orbit around each other. That can happen. It around each other. That can happen. It around each other. That can happen. It takes a while. a wave is created in the takes a while. a wave is created in the takes a while. a wave is created in the actual shape of space and that wave actual shape of space and that wave actual shape of space and that wave follows the black holes as black holes follows the black holes as black holes follows the black holes as black holes are undulating. Eventually, those two are undulating. Eventually, those two are undulating. Eventually, those two black holes will merge and as we were black holes will merge and as we were black holes will merge and as we were talking about, it doesn't take an talking about, it doesn't take an talking about, it doesn't take an infinite time even though there's time infinite time even though there's time infinite time even though there's time dilation because they're both so big. dilation because they're both so big. dilation because they're both so big. They're really deforming spaceime a lot. They're really deforming spaceime a lot. They're really deforming spaceime a lot. I don't have a little tiny marble I don't have a little tiny marble I don't have a little tiny marble falling across an event horizon. I have falling across an event horizon. I have falling across an event horizon. I have two event horizons. And in the two event horizons. And in the two event horizons. And in the simulations, you can see it bobble and simulations, you can see it bobble and simulations, you can see it bobble and they merge together and they make one they merge together and they make one they merge together and they make one bigger black hole. And then it radiates bigger black hole. And then it radiates bigger black hole. And then it radiates in the gravitational waves. It radiates in the gravitational waves. It radiates in the gravitational waves. It radiates away all those imperfections and it away all those imperfections and it away all those imperfections and it settles down to one quscent perfectly settles down to one quscent perfectly settles down to one quscent perfectly silent black hole that's spinning. silent black hole that's spinning. silent black hole that's spinning. Beautiful stuff. And it emits E= MC² Beautiful stuff. And it emits E= MC² Beautiful stuff. And it emits E= MC² energy. So the mass of the final black energy. So the mass of the final black energy. So the mass of the final black hole will be less than the sum of the hole will be less than the sum of the hole will be less than the sum of the two starter black holes. And that energy two starter black holes. And that energy two starter black holes. And that energy is radiated away in this ringing of is radiated away in this ringing of is radiated away in this ringing of spaceime. It's really important to spaceime. It's really important to spaceime. It's really important to emphasize that it's not light. None of emphasize that it's not light. None of emphasize that it's not light. None of this has to do literally with light that this has to do literally with light that this has to do literally with light that we can detect with normal things that we can detect with normal things that we can detect with normal things that detect light. X-rays form of light.

detect light. X-rays form of light. detect light. X-rays form of light. Gamma rays are a form of light. Gamma rays are a form of light. Gamma rays are a form of light. Infrared, optical, all this whole Infrared, optical, all this whole Infrared, optical, all this whole electromagnetic spectrum. None of it is electromagnetic spectrum. None of it is electromagnetic spectrum. None of it is emitted as light. It's completely dark. emitted as light. It's completely dark. emitted as light. It's completely dark. It's only emitted in the rippling of the It's only emitted in the rippling of the It's only emitted in the rippling of the shape of space. A lot of times it's shape of space. A lot of times it's shape of space. A lot of times it's likened closer to sound. Technically, likened closer to sound. Technically, likened closer to sound. Technically, we've kind of argued, I mean, I haven't we've kind of argued, I mean, I haven't we've kind of argued, I mean, I haven't done an anatomical calculation, but if done an anatomical calculation, but if done an anatomical calculation, but if you're near enough to two colliding you're near enough to two colliding you're near enough to two colliding black holes, they actually ring spaceime black holes, they actually ring spaceime black holes, they actually ring spaceime in the human auditory range. The in the human auditory range. The in the human auditory range. The frequency is actually in the human frequency is actually in the human frequency is actually in the human auditory range that the shape of space auditory range that the shape of space auditory range that the shape of space could squeeze and stretch your eardrum could squeeze and stretch your eardrum could squeeze and stretch your eardrum even in vacuum. And you could hear even in vacuum. And you could hear even in vacuum. And you could hear literally hear these waves ringing. So the idea is that they're closer um to So the idea is that they're closer um to something that you would want to map as something that you would want to map as something that you would want to map as a sound than it's something as a a sound than it's something as a a sound than it's something as a picture. Sorry. So what do you think it picture. Sorry. So what do you think it picture. Sorry. So what do you think it would feel like to ride the would feel like to ride the would feel like to ride the gravitational wave? So like to be to gravitational wave? So like to be to gravitational wave? So like to be to exist to exist as you mentioned here exist to exist as you mentioned here exist to exist as you mentioned here would literally bob around like your would literally bob around like your would literally bob around like your orbit would change right if you were orbit would change right if you were orbit would change right if you were orbiting these black holes two black orbiting these black holes two black orbiting these black holes two black holes you'd be on a kind of complicated holes you'd be on a kind of complicated holes you'd be on a kind of complicated orbit but your orbit would get tossed orbit but your orbit would get tossed orbit but your orbit would get tossed about well how would the experience be about well how would the experience be about well how would the experience be because you're inside spaceime yes I see because you're inside spaceime yes I see because you're inside spaceime yes I see so the the the the black hole is so the the the the black hole is so the the the the black hole is experienced within spacetime as a experienced within spacetime as a experienced within spacetime as a squeezing and stretching. So you would squeezing and stretching. So you would squeezing and stretching. So you would feel it as a sort of squeezing and feel it as a sort of squeezing and feel it as a sort of squeezing and stretching and you would also find your

stretching and you would also find your stretching and you would also find your location change where your where you location change where your where you location change where your where you would fall would be would fall would be would fall would be redirected. Um so it's literally like a redirected. Um so it's literally like a redirected. Um so it's literally like a squeezing and stretching. That's the way squeezing and stretching. That's the way squeezing and stretching. That's the way to think about it. And and and it's very to think about it. And and and it's very to think about it. And and and it's very detailed the sort of nature of this and detailed the sort of nature of this and detailed the sort of nature of this and um but for many years people thought um but for many years people thought um but for many years people thought well these gravitational waves kind of well these gravitational waves kind of well these gravitational waves kind of have to exist for these intuitive have to exist for these intuitive have to exist for these intuitive reasons I've described. spacetime's reasons I've described. spacetime's reasons I've described. spacetime's curved. I move the curve. The wave has curved. I move the curve. The wave has curved. I move the curve. The wave has to propagate um through that curved to propagate um through that curved to propagate um through that curved spaceime. But people didn't know if they spaceime. But people didn't know if they spaceime. But people didn't know if they really carried energy. The arguments really carried energy. The arguments really carried energy. The arguments went on and back and forth and papers went on and back and forth and papers went on and back and forth and papers written in decades, right? Um but I like written in decades, right? Um but I like written in decades, right? Um but I like this sound an more than an analogy this sound an more than an analogy this sound an more than an analogy because I I liken the black holes as because I I liken the black holes as because I I liken the black holes as like mallets on the drum. The drum is like mallets on the drum. The drum is like mallets on the drum. The drum is spacetime. Yeah. As they move, they bang spacetime. Yeah. As they move, they bang spacetime. Yeah. As they move, they bang on the drum of spaceime and it rings. on the drum of spaceime and it rings. on the drum of spaceime and it rings. Mhm. Remarkably, those gravitational Mhm. Remarkably, those gravitational Mhm. Remarkably, those gravitational waves do things don't interfere with waves do things don't interfere with waves do things don't interfere with them very much. So, they can travel for them very much. So, they can travel for them very much. So, they can travel for two billion years, light years, you two billion years, light years, you two billion years, light years, you know, in distance, two billion years in know, in distance, two billion years in know, in distance, two billion years in time, and get to us kind of as they were time, and get to us kind of as they were time, and get to us kind of as they were when they were emitted, quieter, more when they were emitted, quieter, more when they were emitted, quieter, more diffuse, maybe they've stretched out a diffuse, maybe they've stretched out a diffuse, maybe they've stretched out a little bit from the expansion of the little bit from the expansion of the little bit from the expansion of the universe, but they're pretty preserved.

universe, but they're pretty preserved. universe, but they're pretty preserved. And so the idea of LIGO, this And so the idea of LIGO, this And so the idea of LIGO, this instrument, is to build a gigantic instrument, is to build a gigantic instrument, is to build a gigantic musical instrument. It's kind of like musical instrument. It's kind of like musical instrument. It's kind of like building an electric guitar where the building an electric guitar where the building an electric guitar where the electric guitar is recording the shape electric guitar is recording the shape electric guitar is recording the shape of the string and it plays it back to of the string and it plays it back to of the string and it plays it back to you through an amplifier. LIGO is trying you through an amplifier. LIGO is trying you through an amplifier. LIGO is trying to record the shape of the ringing drum to record the shape of the ringing drum to record the shape of the ringing drum and they literally listen to it in the and they literally listen to it in the and they literally listen to it in the control room. just sort of hums and control room. just sort of hums and control room. just sort of hums and wobbles and they're like trying to play wobbles and they're like trying to play wobbles and they're like trying to play this recording drum back to you as this recording drum back to you as this recording drum back to you as opposed to taking a snapshot. It's like opposed to taking a snapshot. It's like opposed to taking a snapshot. It's like a in time. Yeah. But to construct this a in time. Yeah. But to construct this a in time. Yeah. But to construct this guitar Yes. gigantic instrument has to guitar Yes. gigantic instrument has to guitar Yes. gigantic instrument has to be very large and extremely precise. be very large and extremely precise. be very large and extremely precise. It's unbelievable. I can't believe they It's unbelievable. I can't believe they It's unbelievable. I can't believe they succeeded. I honestly I can't believe succeeded. I honestly I can't believe succeeded. I honestly I can't believe they succeeded. It was so insane. It was they succeeded. It was so insane. It was they succeeded. It was so insane. It was such a crazy thing to even attempt. It such a crazy thing to even attempt. It such a crazy thing to even attempt. It took them 50 years. Really? It's people took them 50 years. Really? It's people took them 50 years. Really? It's people who started in their 30s and 40s who who started in their 30s and 40s who who started in their 30s and 40s who were in their 80s when when it were in their 80s when when it were in their 80s when when it succeeded. I mean, imagine that succeeded. I mean, imagine that succeeded. I mean, imagine that tenacity, the unbelievable commitment.

tenacity, the unbelievable commitment. tenacity, the unbelievable commitment. Um, but the sensitivity that we're Um, but the sensitivity that we're Um, but the sensitivity that we're talking about is we have a this musical talking about is we have a this musical talking about is we have a this musical instrument the s four kilometers instrument the s four kilometers instrument the s four kilometers spanning four kilometers in a kind of spanning four kilometers in a kind of spanning four kilometers in a kind of L-shape with these tunnels where there's L-shape with these tunnels where there's L-shape with these tunnels where there's this the largest holes in the earth's this the largest holes in the earth's this the largest holes in the earth's atmosphere because they pulled a vacuum atmosphere because they pulled a vacuum atmosphere because they pulled a vacuum in these tunnels to build this in these tunnels to build this in these tunnels to build this instrument. Um, and they're measuring instrument. Um, and they're measuring instrument. Um, and they're measuring they're they're trying to record the they're they're trying to record the they're they're trying to record the wobbling of spaceime right as it passes wobbling of spaceime right as it passes wobbling of spaceime right as it passes this sort of undulation. Uh, that this sort of undulation. Uh, that this sort of undulation. Uh, that amounts to less than amounts to less than amounts to less than 110,000th the variation in a proton over 110,000th the variation in a proton over 110,000th the variation in a proton over the four kilometers. It's an insane the four kilometers. It's an insane the four kilometers. It's an insane insane achievement. Oh, great insane achievement. Oh, great insane achievement. Oh, great engineering. I don't know how they did I engineering. I don't know how they did I engineering. I don't know how they did I swear I follow them around from so I swear I follow them around from so I swear I follow them around from so I just for fun I'm I'm very theoretical. I just for fun I'm I'm very theoretical. I just for fun I'm I'm very theoretical. I don't build things. I'm always super don't build things. I'm always super don't build things. I'm always super impressed that people can translate impressed that people can translate impressed that people can translate something on the page and and it looks something on the page and and it looks something on the page and and it looks like wires and I don't know how I'm like wires and I don't know how I'm like wires and I don't know how I'm always surprised at what it looks like always surprised at what it looks like always surprised at what it looks like and but I walked the tunnels with Ray and but I walked the tunnels with Ray and but I walked the tunnels with Ray Weiss who won the Nobel Prize along with Weiss who won the Nobel Prize along with Weiss who won the Nobel Prize along with Kip Thorne and Barry Barish one of the Kip Thorne and Barry Barish one of the Kip Thorne and Barry Barish one of the project managers and I walked the project managers and I walked the project managers and I walked the tunnels with Ray. It was a delight. I tunnels with Ray. It was a delight. I tunnels with Ray. It was a delight. I mean Ray is one of the most delightful mean Ray is one of the most delightful mean Ray is one of the most delightful people. Kip is one of the most wonderful people. Kip is one of the most wonderful people. Kip is one of the most wonderful people I've ever known. Um, and uh, Rey people I've ever known. Um, and uh, Rey people I've ever known. Um, and uh, Rey said to me, you know, the reason why it said to me, you know, the reason why it said to me, you know, the reason why it was called Black Hole Blues is because was called Black Hole Blues is because was called Black Hole Blues is because about a month before they succeeded, he about a month before they succeeded, he about a month before they succeeded, he said to me, if we don't detect black said to me, if we don't detect black said to me, if we don't detect black holes, this whole thing's a failure.

holes, this whole thing's a failure. holes, this whole thing's a failure. And, um, we've led this country, you And, um, we've led this country, you And, um, we've led this country, you know, down this wrong path. And, um, he know, down this wrong path. And, um, he know, down this wrong path. And, um, he really felt like this tremendous really felt like this tremendous really felt like this tremendous responsibility for this project to responsibility for this project to responsibility for this project to succeed. And it weighed on him, you succeed. And it weighed on him, you succeed. And it weighed on him, you know, it was uh it was just quite know, it was uh it was just quite know, it was uh it was just quite tremendous what the the integrity, tremendous what the the integrity, tremendous what the the integrity, right, the scientific integrity. And the right, the scientific integrity. And the right, the scientific integrity. And the first instruments he built, he was first instruments he built, he was first instruments he built, he was building outside of MIT and on a building outside of MIT and on a building outside of MIT and on a tabletop and his his colleagues said, tabletop and his his colleagues said, tabletop and his his colleagues said, "You're not going to get tenure, you "You're not going to get tenure, you "You're not going to get tenure, you know, you're never going to succeed." know, you're never going to succeed." know, you're never going to succeed." Um, and they just kept going. People Um, and they just kept going. People Um, and they just kept going. People like that. So huge teams, huge like that. So huge teams, huge like that. So huge teams, huge collaborations are just uh is how the collaborations are just uh is how the collaborations are just uh is how the world moves forward because it's an world moves forward because it's an world moves forward because it's an example. It's you know there's building example. It's you know there's building example. It's you know there's building cynicism about bureaucracies when a cynicism about bureaucracies when a cynicism about bureaucracies when a large number of people especially large number of people especially large number of people especially connected to government can be connected to government can be connected to government can be productive. You know bureaucracies slow productive. You know bureaucracies slow productive. You know bureaucracies slow everything down. So it's nice to see an everything down. So it's nice to see an everything down. So it's nice to see an incredibly unlikely exceptionally incredibly unlikely exceptionally incredibly unlikely exceptionally difficult engineering project like this difficult engineering project like this difficult engineering project like this succeed. Oh yeah. So I I understand why succeed. Oh yeah. So I I understand why succeed. Oh yeah. So I I understand why there's this weight on his shoulders and there's this weight on his shoulders and there's this weight on his shoulders and I'm great there's I'm grateful that I'm great there's I'm grateful that I'm great there's I'm grateful that there's great there's great there's great leaders that push it forward like that.

leaders that push it forward like that. leaders that push it forward like that. Yeah, it really is. You see so many u Yeah, it really is. You see so many u Yeah, it really is. You see so many u moments when they could have stumbled. moments when they could have stumbled. moments when they could have stumbled. Yeah. Um and they built a first Yeah. Um and they built a first Yeah. Um and they built a first generation machine just after 2000 and generation machine just after 2000 and generation machine just after 2000 and it wasn't a surprise to them but it it wasn't a surprise to them but it it wasn't a surprise to them but it detected nothing. Crickets. Crickets. detected nothing. Crickets. Crickets. detected nothing. Crickets. Crickets. And they just, you know, they have the And they just, you know, they have the And they just, you know, they have the wherewithal to keep going. second wherewithal to keep going. second wherewithal to keep going. second generation. They're about to turn the generation. They're about to turn the generation. They're about to turn the machine on, quote unquote. You It's a machine on, quote unquote. You It's a machine on, quote unquote. You It's a little bit of a simplification, but do little bit of a simplification, but do little bit of a simplification, but do their first science run and they decide their first science run and they decide their first science run and they decide to postpone um because they feel they're to postpone um because they feel they're to postpone um because they feel they're not ready yet. It's September 14th in not ready yet. It's September 14th in not ready yet. It's September 14th in 2015 and the experimentalists are out 2015 and the experimentalists are out 2015 and the experimentalists are out there. They're in the middle of the there. They're in the middle of the there. They're in the middle of the night, you know, they're working all night, you know, they're working all night, you know, they're working all night long and they're they're banging night long and they're they're banging night long and they're they're banging on the thing, you know, literally on the thing, you know, literally on the thing, you know, literally driving trucks, slamming the brakes on driving trucks, slamming the brakes on driving trucks, slamming the brakes on to see the noise that it creates. And um to see the noise that it creates. And um to see the noise that it creates. And um so they're really messing with the so they're really messing with the so they're really messing with the machine, really interfering with it just machine, really interfering with it just machine, really interfering with it just to kind of calibrate how much noise can to kind of calibrate how much noise can to kind of calibrate how much noise can this thing tolerate. And I guess the this thing tolerate. And I guess the this thing tolerate. And I guess the story is is they get tired. There's story is is they get tired. There's story is is they get tired. There's there's an instrument in Louisiana and there's an instrument in Louisiana and there's an instrument in Louisiana and there's one in Washington state. And there's one in Washington state. And there's one in Washington state. And they go home, put their tools down, they they go home, put their tools down, they they go home, put their tools down, they go home. It's um they leave the go home. It's um they leave the go home. It's um they leave the instrument locked though, mercifully.

instrument locked though, mercifully. instrument locked though, mercifully. And um it's something like within the And um it's something like within the And um it's something like within the span of an hour of them driving back to span of an hour of them driving back to span of an hour of them driving back to their humble abodess that they have in their humble abodess that they have in their humble abodess that they have in these remote uh regions where they built these remote uh regions where they built these remote uh regions where they built these these these instruments, this gravitational wave instruments, this gravitational wave instruments, this gravitational wave washes over, I think it hits Louisiana washes over, I think it hits Louisiana washes over, I think it hits Louisiana first. It travels across the US, brings first. It travels across the US, brings first. It travels across the US, brings the instrument in Washington state. It the instrument in Washington state. It the instrument in Washington state. It began, you know, over a billion and a began, you know, over a billion and a began, you know, over a billion and a half years ago before multisellular half years ago before multisellular half years ago before multisellular organisms had emerged on the earth. Just organisms had emerged on the earth. Just organisms had emerged on the earth. Just imagine this from like a distant view, imagine this from like a distant view, imagine this from like a distant view, this collision course, right? And um this collision course, right? And um this collision course, right? And um it's the centenerary. It's it's it's the it's the centenerary. It's it's it's the it's the centenerary. It's it's it's the year Einstein published general year Einstein published general year Einstein published general relativity. That's so it was this, you relativity. That's so it was this, you relativity. That's so it was this, you know, a hundred years. I mean, just know, a hundred years. I mean, just know, a hundred years. I mean, just think about where that where that signal think about where that where that signal think about where that where that signal was when Einstein in, you know, 1915 was when Einstein in, you know, 1915 was when Einstein in, you know, 1915 wrote down the general theory of wrote down the general theory of wrote down the general theory of relativity. It was on its way here. It relativity. It was on its way here. It relativity. It was on its way here. It was almost here. was almost here. was almost here. Uh, what do you think is cooler? Uh, Uh, what do you think is cooler? Uh, Uh, what do you think is cooler? Uh, Einstein's general relativity or LIGO.

Well, I can't disparage my friends, but Well, I can't disparage my friends, but of course, relativity is just so of course, relativity is just so of course, relativity is just so all-encompassing. No, but see, so hold all-encompassing. No, but see, so hold all-encompassing. No, but see, so hold on a second. All-encompassing, super on a second. All-encompassing, super on a second. All-encompassing, super powerful leap of a theory. Yeah. And powerful leap of a theory. Yeah. And powerful leap of a theory. Yeah. And they built it. They built it. I don't they built it. They built it. I don't they built it. They built it. I don't know, man. the greatest engineering on know, man. the greatest engineering on know, man. the greatest engineering on the in the you know cuz I I don't know the in the you know cuz I I don't know the in the you know cuz I I don't know cuz cuz cuz you know yeah humans getting together you know yeah humans getting together you know yeah humans getting together and building the thing that's really and building the thing that's really and building the thing that's really ultimately what ultimately what ultimately what uh what impacts the world right yeah uh uh what impacts the world right yeah uh uh what impacts the world right yeah uh I mean I I just as I said my admiration I mean I I just as I said my admiration I mean I I just as I said my admiration for for Ry and Kip and the entire team for for Ry and Kip and the entire team for for Ry and Kip and the entire team is is enormous and you know just is is enormous and you know just is is enormous and you know just imagining Rey had been out there on site imagining Rey had been out there on site imagining Rey had been out there on site he had just left to go back home um he had just left to go back home um he had just left to go back home um wakes up in the middle night and sees wakes up in the middle night and sees wakes up in the middle night and sees it, you know, can you imagine? And it, you know, can you imagine? And it, you know, can you imagine? And there's a signal, you know, there's there's a signal, you know, there's there's a signal, you know, there's something in the log. He's like, "What something in the log. He's like, "What something in the log. He's like, "What the hell is that?" the hell is that?" the hell is that?" So, speaking of the human story, you uh So, speaking of the human story, you uh So, speaking of the human story, you uh also wrote the book A Mad Man: Dreams of also wrote the book A Mad Man: Dreams of also wrote the book A Mad Man: Dreams of Touring Machines. It connects two Touring Machines. It connects two Touring Machines. It connects two geniuses of the 20th century, Alan geniuses of the 20th century, Alan geniuses of the 20th century, Alan Touring and Girdle. What specific Touring and Girdle. What specific Touring and Girdle. What specific threads connect these two minds? Yeah, I threads connect these two minds? Yeah, I threads connect these two minds? Yeah, I was um was really mesmerized by these was um was really mesmerized by these was um was really mesmerized by these two characters. They people know of Alan two characters. They people know of Alan two characters. They people know of Alan Turing for having Turing for having Turing for having ideiated about the computer being the ideiated about the computer being the ideiated about the computer being the person to really imagine that. But his person to really imagine that. But his person to really imagine that. But his work began with thinking about God's work began with thinking about God's work began with thinking about God's work. That's where it began and it began work. That's where it began and it began work. That's where it began and it began with this phenomenon of undecidable

with this phenomenon of undecidable with this phenomenon of undecidable propositions or unprovable propositions. propositions or unprovable propositions. propositions or unprovable propositions. So um uh there was something huge that So um uh there was something huge that So um uh there was something huge that happened in mathematics which is people happened in mathematics which is people happened in mathematics which is people imagined that any problem in math could imagined that any problem in math could imagined that any problem in math could technically be proven to be true. technically be proven to be true. technically be proven to be true. doesn't mean human beings are going to doesn't mean human beings are going to doesn't mean human beings are going to prove every fact about everything in prove every fact about everything in prove every fact about everything in mathematics but you know it should be mathematics but you know it should be mathematics but you know it should be provable right I mean it seemed kind of provable right I mean it seemed kind of provable right I mean it seemed kind of it's not that wild supposition and it's not that wild supposition and it's not that wild supposition and everyone believed this all the great everyone believed this all the great everyone believed this all the great mathematicians Hilbert was a call of his mathematicians Hilbert was a call of his mathematicians Hilbert was a call of his to prove that and go to a very strange to prove that and go to a very strange to prove that and go to a very strange character character character uh very unusual he he was a platonist he uh very unusual he he was a platonist he uh very unusual he he was a platonist he he literally believed that mathematical he literally believed that mathematical he literally believed that mathematical objects had a existential reality he objects had a existential reality he objects had a existential reality he wasn't so sure about this reality. This wasn't so sure about this reality. This wasn't so sure about this reality. This reality he struggled with. He he was reality he struggled with. He he was reality he struggled with. He he was distrustful distrustful distrustful um a physical reality but he absolutely um a physical reality but he absolutely um a physical reality but he absolutely took very seriously a platonic reality took very seriously a platonic reality took very seriously a platonic reality and often his own way of thinking and he and often his own way of thinking and he and often his own way of thinking and he proved that there were facts even among proved that there were facts even among proved that there were facts even among the numbers that could never be proven the numbers that could never be proven the numbers that could never be proven to be true. You have to think about that to be true. You have to think about that to be true. You have to think about that how wild that is that even a fact about how wild that is that even a fact about how wild that is that even a fact about numbers seems very simple uh could be numbers seems very simple uh could be numbers seems very simple uh could be true and true and true and unprovable could never exist as a unprovable could never exist as a unprovable could never exist as a theorem for instance in mathematics theorem for instance in mathematics theorem for instance in mathematics unreachable unreachable unreachable um this incompleteness result was very um this incompleteness result was very um this incompleteness result was very disturbing essentially it's equivalent disturbing essentially it's equivalent disturbing essentially it's equivalent to saying there's no theory of to saying there's no theory of to saying there's no theory of everything for mathematics it was very everything for mathematics it was very everything for mathematics it was very disturbing to people but it was very

disturbing to people but it was very disturbing to people but it was very profound and Alan Turing profound and Alan Turing profound and Alan Turing got involved in this because he was you got involved in this because he was you got involved in this because he was you know he was thinking about uncomputable know he was thinking about uncomputable know he was thinking about uncomputable numbers. So um and that led him what's numbers. So um and that led him what's numbers. So um and that led him what's an uncomputable number? A number like an uncomputable number? A number like an uncomputable number? A number like 0.175. It just goes on forever with no 0.175. It just goes on forever with no 0.175. It just goes on forever with no pattern and I can't I can't even figure pattern and I can't I can't even figure pattern and I can't I can't even figure out how to generate it. There's no rule out how to generate it. There's no rule out how to generate it. There's no rule for making that number. And he was able for making that number. And he was able for making that number. And he was able to prove that there were such things as to prove that there were such things as to prove that there were such things as these uncomputable effectively these uncomputable effectively these uncomputable effectively unknowable numbers. That might not sound unknowable numbers. That might not sound unknowable numbers. That might not sound like a big deal was actually was like a big deal was actually was like a big deal was actually was actually actually really quite profound. actually actually really quite profound. actually actually really quite profound. He was relating to godal intellectually He was relating to godal intellectually He was relating to godal intellectually right in the space of ideas. But he goes right in the space of ideas. But he goes right in the space of ideas. But he goes a very different path almost a very different path almost a very different path almost philosophically the opposite direction. philosophically the opposite direction. philosophically the opposite direction. He he he builds he starts to to think He he he builds he starts to to think He he he builds he starts to to think about machines. He starts to think about about machines. He starts to think about about machines. He starts to think about mechanizing thought. Starts to think mechanizing thought. Starts to think mechanizing thought. Starts to think what is a proof? How does a what is a proof? How does a what is a proof? How does a mathematician reason? What does it mean mathematician reason? What does it mean mathematician reason? What does it mean to reason at all? What does it mean to to reason at all? What does it mean to to reason at all? What does it mean to think? And he begins to imagine think? And he begins to imagine think? And he begins to imagine inventing a inventing a inventing a machine that machine that machine that will execute certain orders, you know, will execute certain orders, you know, will execute certain orders, you know, mechanize thought in a specific way.

mechanize thought in a specific way. mechanize thought in a specific way. Well, maybe I can get a machine. I can Well, maybe I can get a machine. I can Well, maybe I can get a machine. I can imagine a machine that does this kind of imagine a machine that does this kind of imagine a machine that does this kind of thinking and that he can prove that even thinking and that he can prove that even thinking and that he can prove that even a machine could not compute these a machine could not compute these a machine could not compute these uncomputable numbers. But where he ends uncomputable numbers. But where he ends uncomputable numbers. But where he ends up is the idea of a universal machine up is the idea of a universal machine up is the idea of a universal machine that computes. Um, essentially can take that computes. Um, essentially can take that computes. Um, essentially can take different software and execute different different software and execute different different software and execute different jobs, right? We don't have a different jobs, right? We don't have a different jobs, right? We don't have a different computer to connect to the internet than computer to connect to the internet than computer to connect to the internet than we do to write papers. It's one machine we do to write papers. It's one machine we do to write papers. It's one machine and um, one piece of hardware, but it and um, one piece of hardware, but it and um, one piece of hardware, but it can do all of these this huge variety of can do all of these this huge variety of can do all of these this huge variety of tasks. And so he really does invent the tasks. And so he really does invent the tasks. And so he really does invent the computer essentially. Um, and famously computer essentially. Um, and famously computer essentially. Um, and famously he uses that thinking in a very he uses that thinking in a very he uses that thinking in a very primitive form in the war effort where primitive form in the war effort where primitive form in the war effort where he's recruited to help break the German he's recruited to help break the German he's recruited to help break the German enigma code. Um, which is heavily enigma code. Um, which is heavily enigma code. Um, which is heavily encrypted and largely believed to be encrypted and largely believed to be encrypted and largely believed to be uncrackable code. and um and and people uncrackable code. and um and and people uncrackable code. and um and and people believe that Turing and his very small believe that Turing and his very small believe that Turing and his very small group actually turned the tide of the group actually turned the tide of the group actually turned the tide of the war in favor of the allies precisely war in favor of the allies precisely war in favor of the allies precisely um by using a combination of this um by using a combination of this um by using a combination of this thinking and just sheer ingenuity and thinking and just sheer ingenuity and thinking and just sheer ingenuity and some luck. Um but uh but the other some luck. Um but uh but the other some luck. Um but uh but the other profound revelation that Turring has is profound revelation that Turring has is profound revelation that Turring has is that well maybe we're just that well maybe we're just that well maybe we're just machines right and uh just biological machines right and uh just biological machines right and uh just biological machines and this is a huge shift for machines and this is a huge shift for machines and this is a huge shift for him. feels very different from God who him. feels very different from God who him. feels very different from God who doesn't really believe in reality and doesn't really believe in reality and doesn't really believe in reality and thinks numbers are are platonic

thinks numbers are are platonic thinks numbers are are platonic realities and and Turing kind of realities and and Turing kind of realities and and Turing kind of thinking we're kind of like we're thinking we're kind of like we're thinking we're kind of like we're actually machines and we could be actually machines and we could be actually machines and we could be replicated. replicated. replicated. So of course Turing's influence is still So of course Turing's influence is still So of course Turing's influence is still widely felt on many levels. So as to the widely felt on many levels. So as to the widely felt on many levels. So as to the on many levels yeah in complexity on many levels yeah in complexity on many levels yeah in complexity theories theoretical computer science theories theoretical computer science theories theoretical computer science and mathematics but also in philosophy and mathematics but also in philosophy and mathematics but also in philosophy with his famous touring test paper. So with his famous touring test paper. So with his famous touring test paper. So like you said conceiving like what what like you said conceiving like what what like you said conceiving like what what is the connection that I guess Ger never is the connection that I guess Ger never is the connection that I guess Ger never really made between mathematics and really made between mathematics and really made between mathematics and humanity humanity humanity uh touring did but I think there's uh touring did but I think there's uh touring did but I think there's another connection to those two people another connection to those two people another connection to those two people is that they're both in their own way is that they're both in their own way is that they're both in their own way kind of tormented yeah humans. I think kind of tormented yeah humans. I think kind of tormented yeah humans. I think they were very tormented. What aspect of they were very tormented. What aspect of they were very tormented. What aspect of that contributed to who they are and that contributed to who they are and that contributed to who they are and what ideas they developed? I mean I what ideas they developed? I mean I what ideas they developed? I mean I think so much. I don't I don't want think so much. I don't I don't want think so much. I don't I don't want to promote the kind of trit trope of the to promote the kind of trit trope of the to promote the kind of trit trope of the mad genius, you know, if you're mad genius, you know, if you're mad genius, you know, if you're brilliant, you are insane. I don't think brilliant, you are insane. I don't think brilliant, you are insane. I don't think that. I don't think if you're insane, that. I don't think if you're insane, that. I don't think if you're insane, you're brilliant. Um but I do think if you're brilliant. Um but I do think if you're brilliant. Um but I do think if somebody who's very brilliant who also somebody who's very brilliant who also somebody who's very brilliant who also chooses not to go for regular chooses not to go for regular chooses not to go for regular gratification in life Mhm. they don't go gratification in life Mhm. they don't go gratification in life Mhm. they don't go for money. They don't necessarily for money. They don't necessarily for money. They don't necessarily value creature comforts. They're they're value creature comforts. They're they're value creature comforts. They're they're not leveraging for fame. I mean they're not leveraging for fame. I mean they're not leveraging for fame. I mean they're really after something different. I really after something different. I really after something different. I think that can lead to a kind of runaway think that can lead to a kind of runaway think that can lead to a kind of runaway instability actually. Yeah. sometimes um

instability actually. Yeah. sometimes um instability actually. Yeah. sometimes um they're already outside of kind of they're already outside of kind of they're already outside of kind of social norms. They're already outside of social norms. They're already outside of social norms. They're already outside of normal connections with people. They've normal connections with people. They've normal connections with people. They've already made that already made that already made that break. Um and I think that makes them break. Um and I think that makes them break. Um and I think that makes them more more more vulnerable. So God, you did have a wife vulnerable. So God, you did have a wife vulnerable. So God, you did have a wife and an strong relationship as far as I and an strong relationship as far as I and an strong relationship as far as I understand and had a was a successful understand and had a was a successful understand and had a was a successful mathematician and ended up at the mathematician and ended up at the mathematician and ended up at the Institute for Advanced Study where he Institute for Advanced Study where he Institute for Advanced Study where he walked with Einstein to the institute walked with Einstein to the institute walked with Einstein to the institute every day. Um and they talked about and every day. Um and they talked about and every day. Um and they talked about and he proved certain really unusual things he proved certain really unusual things he proved certain really unusual things in relativity. You you made reference to in relativity. You you made reference to in relativity. You you made reference to these rotating galaxies. We were talking these rotating galaxies. We were talking these rotating galaxies. We were talking and actually Goodel had a model of a and actually Goodel had a model of a and actually Goodel had a model of a rotating universe that you could travel rotating universe that you could travel rotating universe that you could travel backwards in time. It was mathematically backwards in time. It was mathematically backwards in time. It was mathematically correct. Showed Einstein that within correct. Showed Einstein that within correct. Showed Einstein that within relativity you could time travel. Um relativity you could time travel. Um relativity you could time travel. Um just a unbelievably influential and just a unbelievably influential and just a unbelievably influential and brilliant man. But um he was probably a brilliant man. But um he was probably a brilliant man. But um he was probably a paranoid schizophrenic. Um he did have paranoid schizophrenic. Um he did have paranoid schizophrenic. Um he did have breaks with reality. Um he uh was I breaks with reality. Um he uh was I breaks with reality. Um he uh was I think quite distrustful and feared the think quite distrustful and feared the think quite distrustful and feared the government feared his food was being government feared his food was being government feared his food was being poisoned and you know poisoned and you know poisoned and you know ultimately literally starved himself to ultimately literally starved himself to ultimately literally starved himself to death. Um death. Um death. Um and it's such an extreme and it's such an extreme and it's such an extreme outcome for such a fil mind you know for outcome for such a fil mind you know for outcome for such a fil mind you know for for such a brilliant mind. I think it's for such a brilliant mind. I think it's for such a brilliant mind. I think it's important to sort of not to glorify or important to sort of not to glorify or important to sort of not to glorify or romanticize madness or or um suffering,

romanticize madness or or um suffering, romanticize madness or or um suffering, but to me, you can flip that around and but to me, you can flip that around and but to me, you can flip that around and just be inspired just be inspired just be inspired by the peculiar maladies of a of a human by the peculiar maladies of a of a human by the peculiar maladies of a of a human mind, how they can be leveraged and mind, how they can be leveraged and mind, how they can be leveraged and channeled creatively. Oh yeah. I think a channeled creatively. Oh yeah. I think a channeled creatively. Oh yeah. I think a lot of us obviously probably every human lot of us obviously probably every human lot of us obviously probably every human has those peculiar qualities. has those peculiar qualities. has those peculiar qualities. You know, uh I talk to people sometimes You know, uh I talk to people sometimes You know, uh I talk to people sometimes about just my own psychology and I'm about just my own psychology and I'm about just my own psychology and I'm extremely self-critical extremely self-critical extremely self-critical and uh I'm drawn to the beauty in and uh I'm drawn to the beauty in and uh I'm drawn to the beauty in people, but because I make myself people, but because I make myself people, but because I make myself vulnerable to the world, I can really be vulnerable to the world, I can really be vulnerable to the world, I can really be hurt by people and that thing. Okay, you hurt by people and that thing. Okay, you hurt by people and that thing. Okay, you can lay that out. That's this particular can lay that out. That's this particular can lay that out. That's this particular human. Okay. human. Okay. human. Okay. And you know, there's a bunch of people And you know, there's a bunch of people And you know, there's a bunch of people that will say, well, you many of those that will say, well, you many of those that will say, well, you many of those things you don't want to do. Mhm. Maybe things you don't want to do. Mhm. Maybe things you don't want to do. Mhm. Maybe don't be so self-critical. Maybe don't don't be so self-critical. Maybe don't don't be so self-critical. Maybe don't be so open to the world. Maybe have a be so open to the world. Maybe have a be so open to the world. Maybe have a little bit more reason about how you little bit more reason about how you little bit more reason about how you interact with the outside world. It's interact with the outside world. It's interact with the outside world. It's like, yeah, maybe. Or maybe be that and like, yeah, maybe. Or maybe be that and like, yeah, maybe. Or maybe be that and be that fully and channel that into a be that fully and channel that into a be that fully and channel that into a productive life into we're all going to productive life into we're all going to productive life into we're all going to die die die in the time we have on this earth. Make in the time we have on this earth. Make in the time we have on this earth. Make the best of the the best of the the best of the particular weirdness that you have. Mhm.

particular weirdness that you have. Mhm. particular weirdness that you have. Mhm. And maybe you'll create something And maybe you'll create something And maybe you'll create something special in this world and in the end it special in this world and in the end it special in this world and in the end it might destroy you. And I think a lot of might destroy you. And I think a lot of might destroy you. And I think a lot of these stories are that it's not that Oh these stories are that it's not that Oh these stories are that it's not that Oh yeah. It's not like saying, "Oh, because yeah. It's not like saying, "Oh, because yeah. It's not like saying, "Oh, because uh in order to achieve anything great, uh in order to achieve anything great, uh in order to achieve anything great, you have to suffer." No. If you're you have to suffer." No. If you're you have to suffer." No. If you're already suffering Mhm. if you're already already suffering Mhm. if you're already already suffering Mhm. if you're already weird, if you're already somehow don't weird, if you're already somehow don't weird, if you're already somehow don't quite fit in your particular quite fit in your particular quite fit in your particular environment, your particular part of environment, your particular part of environment, your particular part of society, use that somehow. I use the society, use that somehow. I use the society, use that somehow. I use the tension of that, the friction of that to tension of that, the friction of that to tension of that, the friction of that to create something. I mean that's what I create something. I mean that's what I create something. I mean that's what I you know um ner who suffered a lot from you know um ner who suffered a lot from you know um ner who suffered a lot from even like stupid stuff like stomach even like stupid stuff like stomach even like stupid stuff like stomach issues like oh yeah kind of right issues like oh yeah kind of right issues like oh yeah kind of right migraines is like psychosmatic or migraines is like psychosmatic or migraines is like psychosmatic or psychophysical but and all those that's psychophysical but and all those that's psychophysical but and all those that's the real it's like the real it's like the real it's like that can somehow be that can somehow be that can somehow be channeled into a productive life. It's channeled into a productive life. It's channeled into a productive life. It's it should be inspiring. A lot of us it should be inspiring. A lot of us it should be inspiring. A lot of us suffer in different ways. Yeah. I'm a suffer in different ways. Yeah. I'm a suffer in different ways. Yeah. I'm a big believer in the tragic flaw. big believer in the tragic flaw. big believer in the tragic flaw. Actually, I think the Greeks really had Actually, I think the Greeks really had Actually, I think the Greeks really had that right. Um, you're describing it.

that right. Um, you're describing it. that right. Um, you're describing it. What makes us great is ultimately our What makes us great is ultimately our What makes us great is ultimately our downfall. Maybe that's just inevitable. downfall. Maybe that's just inevitable. downfall. Maybe that's just inevitable. The choice could be not to be great. The choice could be not to be great. The choice could be not to be great. Um, and I guess I I that's sort of what Um, and I guess I I that's sort of what Um, and I guess I I that's sort of what I mean by they had already broken from a I mean by they had already broken from a I mean by they had already broken from a traditional path because they decided to traditional path because they decided to traditional path because they decided to pursue pursue pursue something so elusive and um that would something so elusive and um that would something so elusive and um that would isolate them to some extent isolate them to some extent isolate them to some extent inevitably and that could fail, right? inevitably and that could fail, right? inevitably and that could fail, right? And whose rewards were hard to predict And whose rewards were hard to predict And whose rewards were hard to predict even. Um, and I do think that that all even. Um, and I do think that that all even. Um, and I do think that that all the character traits that went into the character traits that went into the character traits that went into their their their accomplishments were the same traits accomplishments were the same traits accomplishments were the same traits that went into their demise. And um, I that went into their demise. And um, I that went into their demise. And um, I think you're right. You could say, well, think you're right. You could say, well, think you're right. You could say, well, you know, Lex, maybe you should not be you know, Lex, maybe you should not be you know, Lex, maybe you should not be so so so empathetic, hold yourself, cut yourself empathetic, hold yourself, cut yourself empathetic, hold yourself, cut yourself off a little, but protect yourself, off a little, but protect yourself, off a little, but protect yourself, right? But isn't that exactly what right? But isn't that exactly what right? But isn't that exactly what you're bringing? one of the elements you're bringing? one of the elements you're bringing? one of the elements that you're bringing that makes that you're bringing that makes that you're bringing that makes something extraordinary in a space that something extraordinary in a space that something extraordinary in a space that lots of people try um to break through.

lots of people try um to break through. lots of people try um to break through. Yeah. And but we should mention that for Yeah. And but we should mention that for Yeah. And but we should mention that for every girl on touring, there's millions every girl on touring, there's millions every girl on touring, there's millions of people who have tried and who have of people who have tried and who have of people who have tried and who have destroyed themselves and without without destroyed themselves and without without destroyed themselves and without without reason. I would find it impossible reason. I would find it impossible reason. I would find it impossible to not pursue to not pursue to not pursue uh a discovery that I could I could uh a discovery that I could I could uh a discovery that I could I could imagine my way through. If I can really imagine my way through. If I can really imagine my way through. If I can really see how to get there, I I cannot imagine see how to get there, I I cannot imagine see how to get there, I I cannot imagine abandoning it for some other reason. Uh abandoning it for some other reason. Uh abandoning it for some other reason. Uh uh fear that it would be misused, which uh fear that it would be misused, which uh fear that it would be misused, which is a real fear. Mhm. Right. I mean, it's is a real fear. Mhm. Right. I mean, it's is a real fear. Mhm. Right. I mean, it's a real concern. Um I don't think in my a real concern. Um I don't think in my a real concern. Um I don't think in my work since I'm doing extra dimensions in work since I'm doing extra dimensions in work since I'm doing extra dimensions in the early universe, but or black holes, the early universe, but or black holes, the early universe, but or black holes, you know, I feel pretty safe. But I you know, I feel pretty safe. But I you know, I feel pretty safe. But I mean, who knows, right? Bore couldn't mean, who knows, right? Bore couldn't mean, who knows, right? Bore couldn't think of a way to use quantum mechanics think of a way to use quantum mechanics think of a way to use quantum mechanics to kill people. Mhm. Um I cannot imagine to kill people. Mhm. Um I cannot imagine to kill people. Mhm. Um I cannot imagine pulling back and saying, "Nope, I'm not pulling back and saying, "Nope, I'm not pulling back and saying, "Nope, I'm not going to finish this." You know, I'll going to finish this." You know, I'll going to finish this." You know, I'll give you a counter example of an give you a counter example of an give you a counter example of an exceptionally brilliant person. Terrence exceptionally brilliant person. Terrence exceptionally brilliant person. Terrence Tao, brilliant. Brilliant mathematician.

Tao, brilliant. Brilliant mathematician. Tao, brilliant. Brilliant mathematician. Brilliant. Mhm. He is better than out of Brilliant. Mhm. He is better than out of Brilliant. Mhm. He is better than out of all the brilliant people I've ever met all the brilliant people I've ever met all the brilliant people I've ever met in the world. He's better than anybody in the world. He's better than anybody in the world. He's better than anybody else at else at else at working on a hard problem and then working on a hard problem and then working on a hard problem and then realizing when it's for now a little too realizing when it's for now a little too realizing when it's for now a little too hard. Oh, that I can do. and stepping hard. Oh, that I can do. and stepping hard. Oh, that I can do. and stepping stepping away and he's like, "Okay, this stepping away and he's like, "Okay, this stepping away and he's like, "Okay, this is now a weekend problem." Uhhuh. Cuz he is now a weekend problem." Uhhuh. Cuz he is now a weekend problem." Uhhuh. Cuz he has he has seen too much for him. has he has seen too much for him. has he has seen too much for him. Everybody's different, but Gregori Everybody's different, but Gregori Everybody's different, but Gregori Pearlman Mhm. or Andrew Wilds who who Pearlman Mhm. or Andrew Wilds who who Pearlman Mhm. or Andrew Wilds who who give themselves a great story completely give themselves a great story completely give themselves a great story completely for many years over to a problem. Yes. for many years over to a problem. Yes. for many years over to a problem. Yes. And for every every Gigor and they might And for every every Gigor and they might And for every every Gigor and they might not have cracked it. Yep. So you choose not have cracked it. Yep. So you choose not have cracked it. Yep. So you choose your life story like I totally agree. your life story like I totally agree. your life story like I totally agree. Now I'm not going to say sometimes I Now I'm not going to say sometimes I Now I'm not going to say sometimes I take too long to come to that conclusion take too long to come to that conclusion take too long to come to that conclusion but I will proudly say as most but I will proudly say as most but I will proudly say as most theoretical physicists should that I theoretical physicists should that I theoretical physicists should that I kill most my ideas myself. Okay. So, you kill most my ideas myself. Okay. So, you kill most my ideas myself. Okay. So, you walk away. I am absolutely able to say, walk away. I am absolutely able to say, walk away. I am absolutely able to say, "Ah, that's just not I mean, I'm not "Ah, that's just not I mean, I'm not "Ah, that's just not I mean, I'm not going to deny that sometimes I maybe going to deny that sometimes I maybe going to deny that sometimes I maybe take a while to come to that conclusion take a while to come to that conclusion take a while to come to that conclusion longer than I should, but I will I longer than I should, but I will I longer than I should, but I will I absolutely will. I will drop it." And absolutely will. I will drop it." And absolutely will. I will drop it." And that is that is any self-respecting that is that is any self-respecting that is that is any self-respecting physicist should be able to do that. The physicist should be able to do that. The physicist should be able to do that. The problem is with somebody like Andrew problem is with somebody like Andrew problem is with somebody like Andrew Wilds, you were describing who to prove Wilds, you were describing who to prove Wilds, you were describing who to prove last theorem, it took him seven years.

last theorem, it took him seven years. last theorem, it took him seven years. Was that the number? Something like Was that the number? Something like Was that the number? Something like that. he went up into his mother's attic that. he went up into his mother's attic that. he went up into his mother's attic or something and did not emerge for or something and did not emerge for or something and did not emerge for seven years is that maybe he did he was seven years is that maybe he did he was seven years is that maybe he did he was on the right track. He wasn't wrong and on the right track. He wasn't wrong and on the right track. He wasn't wrong and and but that's so it could have been and but that's so it could have been and but that's so it could have been interminable. He still might not have interminable. He still might not have interminable. He still might not have gotten there in the end and and so gotten there in the end and and so gotten there in the end and and so that's the the really difficult space to that's the the really difficult space to that's the the really difficult space to be in uh where you're not wrong, you are be in uh where you're not wrong, you are be in uh where you're not wrong, you are on to something, but it's just asically on to something, but it's just asically on to something, but it's just asically approaching that solution and you're approaching that solution and you're approaching that solution and you're never actually going to land it. Um that never actually going to land it. Um that never actually going to land it. Um that happens and he had a really I it would happens and he had a really I it would happens and he had a really I it would break me straight up break me. He had he break me straight up break me. He had he break me straight up break me. He had he had a proof. Yes. He announced it and had a proof. Yes. He announced it and had a proof. Yes. He announced it and they somebody found a mistake in it. they somebody found a mistake in it. they somebody found a mistake in it. That would just break me. Yeah. Because That would just break me. Yeah. Because That would just break me. Yeah. Because you now everybody gets excited, right? you now everybody gets excited, right? you now everybody gets excited, right? And now you you you realize that it's a And now you you you realize that it's a And now you you you realize that it's a failure and to go back taking a year for failure and to go back taking a year for failure and to go back taking a year for people to check it. It's not the kind of people to check it. It's not the kind of people to check it. It's not the kind of thing you look over in an afternoon and thing you look over in an afternoon and thing you look over in an afternoon and then to to have the will to have the then to to have the will to have the then to to have the will to have the confidence and the patience to go back. confidence and the patience to go back. confidence and the patience to go back. unbelievable rigorously go through work unbelievable rigorously go through work unbelievable rigorously go through work through it. It's a great story. But then through it. It's a great story. But then through it. It's a great story. But then there's another great story, Gregori there's another great story, Gregori there's another great story, Gregori Pearlman, who uh spent seven years he Pearlman, who uh spent seven years he Pearlman, who uh spent seven years he and turned down the Fields Medal. He did and turned down the Fields Medal. He did and turned down the Fields Medal. He did it all alone. And then after he turned it all alone. And then after he turned it all alone. And then after he turned on the Fields Medal and the Millennial on the Fields Medal and the Millennial on the Fields Medal and the Millennial Prize, proving the porn conjecture, he Prize, proving the porn conjecture, he Prize, proving the porn conjecture, he just walked away. Yeah. Now that's a just walked away. Yeah. Now that's a just walked away. Yeah. Now that's a very different psychology. That's wired very different psychology. That's wired very different psychology. That's wired differently. Doesn't care about money, differently. Doesn't care about money, differently. Doesn't care about money, doesn't care about fame, doesn't care doesn't care about fame, doesn't care doesn't care about fame, doesn't care about anything else. Yep. In fact, where about anything else. Yep. In fact, where about anything else. Yep. In fact, where is he now? Uh in St. in Petersburg, is he now? Uh in St. in Petersburg, is he now? Uh in St. in Petersburg, Russia trying to trying to get a

Russia trying to trying to get a Russia trying to trying to get a conversation with him. It turns out when conversation with him. It turns out when conversation with him. It turns out when you walk away and you're a recluse and you walk away and you're a recluse and you walk away and you're a recluse and you enjoy that, you also don't want to you enjoy that, you also don't want to you enjoy that, you also don't want to take some weird dude in a tie. So, turns take some weird dude in a tie. So, turns take some weird dude in a tie. So, turns out I'm trying. I'm trying. Well, if you out I'm trying. I'm trying. Well, if you out I'm trying. I'm trying. Well, if you look at someone like look at someone like look at someone like Tarring, Tarring, Tarring, his his eccentricities were were his his eccentricities were were his his eccentricities were were completely different, right? It's not as completely different, right? It's not as completely different, right? It's not as though there's some mold. And I I really though there's some mold. And I I really though there's some mold. And I I really don't like it when it's portrayed that don't like it when it's portrayed that don't like it when it's portrayed that way. These are really individuals who um way. These are really individuals who um way. These are really individuals who um who were still lost in their own minds who were still lost in their own minds who were still lost in their own minds but in very different ways. And Turring but in very different ways. And Turring but in very different ways. And Turring was openly gay really um during this was openly gay really um during this was openly gay really um during this time. You know, he was working during time. You know, he was working during time. You know, he was working during the war, World War II, so we understand the war, World War II, so we understand the war, World War II, so we understand the era and it was illegal um in Britain the era and it was illegal um in Britain the era and it was illegal um in Britain uh at the time. and he kind of refused uh at the time. and he kind of refused uh at the time. and he kind of refused to to to conceal himself. conceal himself. conceal himself. Um there was a time when the kind of Um there was a time when the kind of Um there was a time when the kind of attitude was, well, we're just going to attitude was, well, we're just going to attitude was, well, we're just going to ignore it. But he had been robbed by ignore it. But he had been robbed by ignore it. But he had been robbed by somebody that he had picked up somebody that he had picked up somebody that he had picked up somewhere. I think it was in Manchester.

somewhere. I think it was in Manchester. somewhere. I think it was in Manchester. And it was such a small thing. I don't And it was such a small thing. I don't And it was such a small thing. I don't know what they took. It took like know what they took. It took like know what they took. It took like nothing, you know? It was nothing. But nothing, you know? It was nothing. But nothing, you know? It was nothing. But he he couldn't tolerate. He goes to the he he couldn't tolerate. He goes to the he he couldn't tolerate. He goes to the police and he tells them and then he's police and he tells them and then he's police and he tells them and then he's arrested. He's the criminal because it arrested. He's the criminal because it arrested. He's the criminal because it involved this homosexual act. Now here involved this homosexual act. Now here involved this homosexual act. Now here you have somebody who made a major you have somebody who made a major you have somebody who made a major contribution to the allies winning the contribution to the allies winning the contribution to the allies winning the war. I mean it's just unbelievable. Not war. I mean it's just unbelievable. Not war. I mean it's just unbelievable. Not to mention the genius mathematical to mention the genius mathematical to mention the genius mathematical genius. I mean he saved the lives of the genius. I mean he saved the lives of the genius. I mean he saved the lives of the people that were doing this to him and people that were doing this to him and people that were doing this to him and they essentially chemically castrated they essentially chemically castrated they essentially chemically castrated him as as a punishment. That was his him as as a punishment. That was his him as as a punishment. That was his sentence. And he became very depressed sentence. And he became very depressed sentence. And he became very depressed and suicidal. And um the story is he was and suicidal. And um the story is he was and suicidal. And um the story is he was he was obsessed with Snow White, which he was obsessed with Snow White, which he was obsessed with Snow White, which was recently released. And he used to was recently released. And he used to was recently released. And he used to chant one of the uh little I don't know chant one of the uh little I don't know chant one of the uh little I don't know if you would call them poem songs. Uh if you would call them poem songs. Uh if you would call them poem songs. Uh dip the apple in the brew, let the dip the apple in the brew, let the dip the apple in the brew, let the sleeping death seep through was a chant sleeping death seep through was a chant sleeping death seep through was a chant from Snow White. And um the the belief from Snow White. And um the the belief from Snow White. And um the the belief is is that he dipped an apple in cyanide is is that he dipped an apple in cyanide is is that he dipped an apple in cyanide and bit from the poison apple. Now I and bit from the poison apple. Now I and bit from the poison apple. Now I don't know if this is apocryphal, but don't know if this is apocryphal, but don't know if this is apocryphal, but people think that the apple on the people think that the apple on the people think that the apple on the Macintosh with the bite out of it is a Macintosh with the bite out of it is a Macintosh with the bite out of it is a reference to Turring. Now some people reference to Turring. Now some people reference to Turring. Now some people deny this. That's nice. That's nice. Um deny this. That's nice. That's nice. Um deny this. That's nice. That's nice. Um but uh some people say he did that so but uh some people say he did that so but uh some people say he did that so his mother could believe that maybe it his mother could believe that maybe it his mother could believe that maybe it was an accident,

was an accident, was an accident, but yeah, quite a terrible end. Yeah. but yeah, quite a terrible end. Yeah. but yeah, quite a terrible end. Yeah. but to two of the greatest humans ever. but to two of the greatest humans ever. but to two of the greatest humans ever. I think the reason why um I I tie them I think the reason why um I I tie them I think the reason why um I I tie them together, not just because ultimately together, not just because ultimately together, not just because ultimately their work is so connected, but but their work is so connected, but but their work is so connected, but but because there's this sort of because there's this sort of because there's this sort of impossibility of understanding them, impossibility of understanding them, impossibility of understanding them, there's this sort of impossibility of there's this sort of impossibility of there's this sort of impossibility of proving something about their lives that proving something about their lives that proving something about their lives that even if you try to write factual even if you try to write factual even if you try to write factual biography, there's something that eludes biography, there's something that eludes biography, there's something that eludes you. And I felt like that's kind of you. And I felt like that's kind of you. And I felt like that's kind of fundamental to the mathematics. the fundamental to the mathematics. the fundamental to the mathematics. the incompleteness, the undecidable, the incompleteness, the undecidable, the incompleteness, the undecidable, the uncomputable. Yeah. Um, so structurally uncomputable. Yeah. Um, so structurally uncomputable. Yeah. Um, so structurally it was it was about what we can kind of it was it was about what we can kind of it was it was about what we can kind of know and what we can believe to be true know and what we can believe to be true know and what we can believe to be true but can't ever really know. Yeah. but can't ever really know. Yeah. but can't ever really know. Yeah. Limitations of formal systems, Limitations of formal systems, Limitations of formal systems, limitations. Exactly. Biography, limitations. Exactly. Biography, limitations. Exactly. Biography, limitations of fiction and non-fiction. limitations of fiction and non-fiction. limitations of fiction and non-fiction. Limitations. So you I there's so many Limitations. So you I there's so many Limitations. So you I there's so many layers to you. So one of which there's layers to you. So one of which there's layers to you. So one of which there's this romantic notion of just this romantic notion of just this romantic notion of just understanding humans exploring humans understanding humans exploring humans understanding humans exploring humans and there's the exploring science there and there's the exploring science there and there's the exploring science there exploring the very rigorous detailed exploring the very rigorous detailed exploring the very rigorous detailed physics and cosmology of things. So uh physics and cosmology of things. So uh physics and cosmology of things. So uh there's art the kind of artistry. So I I there's art the kind of artistry. So I I there's art the kind of artistry. So I I I saw that you're the chief science I saw that you're the chief science I saw that you're the chief science officer of Pioneer Works which is mostly officer of Pioneer Works which is mostly officer of Pioneer Works which is mostly like an artist type of situation. It's a like an artist type of situation. It's a like an artist type of situation. It's a place in Brooklyn. Can you explain to me place in Brooklyn. Can you explain to me place in Brooklyn. Can you explain to me what that is and what role does art play what that is and what role does art play what that is and what role does art play in your life? Yeah, I can start with in your life? Yeah, I can start with in your life? Yeah, I can start with Pioneer Works. Pioneerics in some sense

Pioneer Works. Pioneerics in some sense Pioneer Works. Pioneerics in some sense it was inevitable that I would land at it was inevitable that I would land at it was inevitable that I would land at Pioneerics. It felt like I was marching Pioneerics. It felt like I was marching Pioneerics. It felt like I was marching there for many years and and just it it there for many years and and just it it there for many years and and just it it came together again like at this came together again like at this came together again like at this collision. Um it was founded by this collision. Um it was founded by this collision. Um it was founded by this artist Dustin Yellen. Very utopian idea. artist Dustin Yellen. Very utopian idea. artist Dustin Yellen. Very utopian idea. He bought this building this old iron He bought this building this old iron He bought this building this old iron works factory called Pioneer Iron Works works factory called Pioneer Iron Works works factory called Pioneer Iron Works in in Brooklyn. was in complete in in Brooklyn. was in complete in in Brooklyn. was in complete disrepair, but a beautiful old um disrepair, but a beautiful old um disrepair, but a beautiful old um building uh from the late 1800s. And he building uh from the late 1800s. And he building uh from the late 1800s. And he wanted to make this kind of collage. wanted to make this kind of collage. wanted to make this kind of collage. Dustin's definitely a collage artist. Dustin's definitely a collage artist. Dustin's definitely a collage artist. Works in glass, very big pieces, very Works in glass, very big pieces, very Works in glass, very big pieces, very imaginative and and wild and narrative imaginative and and wild and narrative imaginative and and wild and narrative and into nature and consciousness and and into nature and consciousness and and into nature and consciousness and and I think he wanted to do that with and I think he wanted to do that with and I think he wanted to do that with people. He wanted a place of a collage, people. He wanted a place of a collage, people. He wanted a place of a collage, a living example of artists and a living example of artists and a living example of artists and scientists. And it was founded by Dustin scientists. And it was founded by Dustin scientists. And it was founded by Dustin and and Gabriel Florence was the and and Gabriel Florence was the and and Gabriel Florence was the founding artistic director. Um, it it founding artistic director. Um, it it founding artistic director. Um, it it was started just before Hurricane Sandy. was started just before Hurricane Sandy. was started just before Hurricane Sandy. I don't know if people feel as strongly I don't know if people feel as strongly I don't know if people feel as strongly about Hurricane Sandy as New Yorkers do, about Hurricane Sandy as New Yorkers do, about Hurricane Sandy as New Yorkers do, but it was a real moment around 2012, but it was a real moment around 2012, but it was a real moment around 2012, 2013. Sort of paused the project and you 2013. Sort of paused the project and you 2013. Sort of paused the project and you can even see the kind of waterline on can even see the kind of waterline on can even see the kind of waterline on the brick of where Sandy was. I came in the brick of where Sandy was. I came in the brick of where Sandy was. I came in and collided with these two uh shortly and collided with these two uh shortly and collided with these two uh shortly after that and it really was like a after that and it really was like a after that and it really was like a collision. I'm science, you know, their collision. I'm science, you know, their collision. I'm science, you know, their art. Gabe makes everything, builds art. Gabe makes everything, builds art. Gabe makes everything, builds everything with his bare hands. Dustin's everything with his bare hands. Dustin's everything with his bare hands. Dustin's a dreamer. They love science. They a dreamer. They love science. They a dreamer. They love science. They really wanted science, but science is really wanted science, but science is really wanted science, but science is hard to access. Um I have always loved

hard to access. Um I have always loved hard to access. Um I have always loved the translation of science in the translation of science in the translation of science in literature, in art. Uh, I love fiction literature, in art. Uh, I love fiction literature, in art. Uh, I love fiction writers, like really literary fiction writers, like really literary fiction writers, like really literary fiction writers who dabble thinking about writers who dabble thinking about writers who dabble thinking about science. And I I I I very firmly believe science. And I I I I very firmly believe science. And I I I I very firmly believe science is part of culture. I just I science is part of culture. I just I science is part of culture. I just I know it to be true. I don't think of know it to be true. I don't think of know it to be true. I don't think of myself as doing outreach or education. I myself as doing outreach or education. I myself as doing outreach or education. I I don't like those labels. I'm I'm doing I don't like those labels. I'm I'm doing I don't like those labels. I'm I'm doing culture. culture. culture. an artist in their uh studio working out an artist in their uh studio working out an artist in their uh studio working out problems, understanding materials, problems, understanding materials, problems, understanding materials, building a body of work. Nobody says to building a body of work. Nobody says to building a body of work. Nobody says to them when they exhibit, why are you them when they exhibit, why are you them when they exhibit, why are you doing outreach or uh or are you doing doing outreach or uh or are you doing doing outreach or uh or are you doing education? You know, it's the logical education? You know, it's the logical education? You know, it's the logical extension. extension. extension. So I feel that if you've had the So I feel that if you've had the So I feel that if you've had the privilege of knowing some of these privilege of knowing some of these privilege of knowing some of these people, of seeing a little bit from the people, of seeing a little bit from the people, of seeing a little bit from the summit, if you've had a little glimpse summit, if you've had a little glimpse summit, if you've had a little glimpse yourself, that that you bring it back to yourself, that that you bring it back to yourself, that that you bring it back to to to to the world. So we boom exploded. to to to the world. So we boom exploded. to to to the world. So we boom exploded. Pioneerics became science and art. It's Pioneerics became science and art. It's Pioneerics became science and art. It's not artists who all do science or not artists who all do science or not artists who all do science or scientists who do art. It's real scientists who do art. It's real scientists who do art. It's real hardcore scientists talking about hardcore scientists talking about hardcore scientists talking about science and a lot of live events. We science and a lot of live events. We science and a lot of live events. We have a magazine called Broadcast where have a magazine called Broadcast where have a magazine called Broadcast where we feature all of the disciplines we feature all of the disciplines we feature all of the disciplines rubbing together artists working on all rubbing together artists working on all rubbing together artists working on all kinds of things. When I first started kinds of things. When I first started kinds of things. When I first started doing events there, my my first guest um doing events there, my my first guest um doing events there, my my first guest um like you, I was talking to people and like you, I was talking to people and like you, I was talking to people and this was like I know how to talk to this was like I know how to talk to this was like I know how to talk to people because I know these guys and people because I know these guys and people because I know these guys and I've been on the interviewe side so much I've been on the interviewe side so much I've been on the interviewe side so much I know exactly it was like fully formed I know exactly it was like fully formed I know exactly it was like fully formed for me how to do those conversations.

for me how to do those conversations. for me how to do those conversations. Yeah, you're extremely good at that Yeah, you're extremely good at that Yeah, you're extremely good at that also. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate also. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate also. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. I You learn how to do it too that. I You learn how to do it too that. I You learn how to do it too though. I mean, I don't think the first though. I mean, I don't think the first though. I mean, I don't think the first one I did. I think I've learned, right? one I did. I think I've learned, right? one I did. I think I've learned, right? And you acquire, you get better. It's And you acquire, you get better. It's And you acquire, you get better. It's really interesting. Um, and I love to really interesting. Um, and I love to really interesting. Um, and I love to study. I think you do, too. I really study. I think you do, too. I really study. I think you do, too. I really look into the material and that and I I look into the material and that and I I look into the material and that and I I love science. I really do. I want to love science. I really do. I want to love science. I really do. I want to talk to a crisper biologist because I talk to a crisper biologist because I talk to a crisper biologist because I don't understand it and I want to don't understand it and I want to don't understand it and I want to understand it. And I saw there's a bunch understand it. And I saw there's a bunch understand it. And I saw there's a bunch of cool events and very very fascinating of cool events and very very fascinating of cool events and very very fascinating variety of humans. Yes, we have a really variety of humans. Yes, we have a really variety of humans. Yes, we have a really fascinating variety of humans. That's a fascinating variety of humans. That's a fascinating variety of humans. That's a good way of putting it. Yeah. So, it good way of putting it. Yeah. So, it good way of putting it. Yeah. So, it made me put in my mental map of like made me put in my mental map of like made me put in my mental map of like it's a cool place to go and visit when it's a cool place to go and visit when it's a cool place to go and visit when in New York. Yes. You have to come see in New York. Yes. You have to come see in New York. Yes. You have to come see us. I think you would love it. Also, I us. I think you would love it. Also, I us. I think you would love it. Also, I should mention fashion. I've seen you do should mention fashion. I've seen you do should mention fashion. I've seen you do a bunch of talks and there's there's a a bunch of talks and there's there's a a bunch of talks and there's there's a lot of fashion. Yeah. Oh, appreciation lot of fashion. Yeah. Oh, appreciation lot of fashion. Yeah. Oh, appreciation of fashion going on. I am so you're of fashion going on. I am so you're of fashion going on. I am so you're giving me an opportunity to give a shout giving me an opportunity to give a shout giving me an opportunity to give a shout out um to Andrea Lara who's a designer out um to Andrea Lara who's a designer out um to Andrea Lara who's a designer who makes these amazing jumpsuits that I who makes these amazing jumpsuits that I who makes these amazing jumpsuits that I often wear in a lot of my events. She often wear in a lot of my events. She often wear in a lot of my events. She has a jumpsuit um design line called has a jumpsuit um design line called has a jumpsuit um design line called Risen Division and she just makes these Risen Division and she just makes these Risen Division and she just makes these incredible. They're fantastic. We also incredible. They're fantastic. We also incredible. They're fantastic. We also design patches for all of our events. So design patches for all of our events. So design patches for all of our events. So there are these string theory patches there are these string theory patches there are these string theory patches and consciousness patches and we should and consciousness patches and we should and consciousness patches and we should show this as overlays. Hopefully show this as overlays. Hopefully show this as overlays. Hopefully there'll be nice pictures floating about there'll be nice pictures floating about there'll be nice pictures floating about everywhere. So, you know, I think all of everywhere. So, you know, I think all of everywhere. So, you know, I think all of this is is just I just like to this is is just I just like to this is is just I just like to experiment with life. I think making the experiment with life. I think making the experiment with life. I think making the magazine was a big wild experiment. You

magazine was a big wild experiment. You magazine was a big wild experiment. You said with life. With life. Nice. Yeah. said with life. With life. Nice. Yeah. said with life. With life. Nice. Yeah. Um this kind of idea that we were just Um this kind of idea that we were just Um this kind of idea that we were just describing is I I I find it hard to stop describing is I I I find it hard to stop describing is I I I find it hard to stop the momentum if I think something can I the momentum if I think something can I the momentum if I think something can I can make something. Um I have to try to can make something. Um I have to try to can make something. Um I have to try to make it. Um, and to me this is the make it. Um, and to me this is the make it. Um, and to me this is the closest I come to experimentation and closest I come to experimentation and closest I come to experimentation and collaboration because even though I I collaboration because even though I I collaboration because even though I I collaborate theoretically, I have great collaborate theoretically, I have great collaborate theoretically, I have great collaborators, Brian Green, Masimo collaborators, Brian Green, Masimo collaborators, Brian Green, Masimo Paratti, Dan Kat, these are my really Paratti, Dan Kat, these are my really Paratti, Dan Kat, these are my really close collaborators. Um, a lot of close collaborators. Um, a lot of close collaborators. Um, a lot of theoretical physics is alone and you're theoretical physics is alone and you're theoretical physics is alone and you're in your mind a lot. Um, this is in your mind a lot. Um, this is in your mind a lot. Um, this is something that really was was was built something that really was was was built something that really was was was built this triad of Dustin, Gabe, and I and this triad of Dustin, Gabe, and I and this triad of Dustin, Gabe, and I and all our amazing people who work there all our amazing people who work there all our amazing people who work there and our amazing board. we really are and our amazing board. we really are and our amazing board. we really are doing it together. You take one element doing it together. You take one element doing it together. You take one element out and it starts to um it starts to out and it starts to um it starts to out and it starts to um it starts to change shape and that's a very change shape and that's a very change shape and that's a very interesting experience I think and interesting experience I think and interesting experience I think and making things is an interesting making things is an interesting making things is an interesting experience. Since you mentioned experience. Since you mentioned experience. Since you mentioned literature, is there is there books that literature, is there is there books that literature, is there is there books that had an impact on your life, whether it's had an impact on your life, whether it's had an impact on your life, whether it's literature, uh, fiction, non-fiction.

literature, uh, fiction, non-fiction. literature, uh, fiction, non-fiction. I love fiction, which I think people I love fiction, which I think people I love fiction, which I think people expect me to read a lot of sort of expect me to read a lot of sort of expect me to read a lot of sort of sci-fi or non-fiction. I mostly read sci-fi or non-fiction. I mostly read sci-fi or non-fiction. I mostly read fiction. I had a syllabus of great fiction. I had a syllabus of great fiction. I had a syllabus of great fiction writers that had science in it fiction writers that had science in it fiction writers that had science in it and um, I love that syllabus. Can you and um, I love that syllabus. Can you and um, I love that syllabus. Can you ever make that public or no? Yeah, I ever make that public or no? Yeah, I ever make that public or no? Yeah, I suppose I could, but I can tell you some suppose I could, but I can tell you some suppose I could, but I can tell you some of them as they come to mind. Um, Katsu of them as they come to mind. Um, Katsu of them as they come to mind. Um, Katsu Ishiguru, who won the Nobel Prize, wrote Ishiguru, who won the Nobel Prize, wrote Ishiguru, who won the Nobel Prize, wrote Remains of the Day, probably most Remains of the Day, probably most Remains of the Day, probably most famously. Um, his book Never Let Me Go, famously. Um, his book Never Let Me Go, famously. Um, his book Never Let Me Go, it's unbelievable, totally devastating, it's unbelievable, totally devastating, it's unbelievable, totally devastating, stunning. I see. I really love stunning. I see. I really love stunning. I see. I really love literature. So, when when people can do literature. So, when when people can do literature. So, when when people can do that with these very abstract themes, that with these very abstract themes, that with these very abstract themes, um, it's sort of my favorite space for um, it's sort of my favorite space for um, it's sort of my favorite space for for literature. Martin Amos wrote a book for literature. Martin Amos wrote a book for literature. Martin Amos wrote a book that runs backwards, Times Arrow. I love that runs backwards, Times Arrow. I love that runs backwards, Times Arrow. I love some of his other books even more, but some of his other books even more, but some of his other books even more, but Times Zero is pretty clever. So, you Times Zero is pretty clever. So, you Times Zero is pretty clever. So, you like it when uh these non-traditional like it when uh these non-traditional like it when uh these non-traditional mechanisms are applied to tell a story mechanisms are applied to tell a story mechanisms are applied to tell a story that's fundamentally human that there's that's fundamentally human that there's that's fundamentally human that there's some Yes. some beauty of language like I some Yes. some beauty of language like I some Yes. some beauty of language like I really appreciate that. Even Orwell is really appreciate that. Even Orwell is really appreciate that. Even Orwell is amazing. You know, Hitchens writing on amazing. You know, Hitchens writing on amazing. You know, Hitchens writing on Orwell is amazing. Um there was there Orwell is amazing. Um there was there Orwell is amazing. Um there was there were some plays on the syllabus. I have were some plays on the syllabus. I have were some plays on the syllabus. I have to think of what else was in there. But to think of what else was in there. But to think of what else was in there. But there was one book that I think was kind there was one book that I think was kind there was one book that I think was kind of surprising that I think is an of surprising that I think is an of surprising that I think is an absolute masterpiece which is the road.

absolute masterpiece which is the road. absolute masterpiece which is the road. And you might say in what sense is the And you might say in what sense is the And you might say in what sense is the road to science? Well, first of all, road to science? Well, first of all, road to science? Well, first of all, Cormick McCarthy absolutely loves Cormick McCarthy absolutely loves Cormick McCarthy absolutely loves scientists and science. And you can feel scientists and science. And you can feel scientists and science. And you can feel this very subtle influence in that book this very subtle influence in that book this very subtle influence in that book is um it's it's is um it's it's is um it's it's an remarkable an remarkable an remarkable uh precise, stunning, ethereal, all of uh precise, stunning, ethereal, all of uh precise, stunning, ethereal, all of these things at once. And there's no these things at once. And there's no these things at once. And there's no who, what, where, when, or how. Um, you who, what, where, when, or how. Um, you who, what, where, when, or how. Um, you might guess it's a nuclear event that might guess it's a nuclear event that might guess it's a nuclear event that kicks off the book or a lot of people kicks off the book or a lot of people kicks off the book or a lot of people know the road I I think from the movie, know the road I I think from the movie, know the road I I think from the movie, but really the book is magnificent. Um, but really the book is magnificent. Um, but really the book is magnificent. Um, and it's very very abstract, but there's and it's very very abstract, but there's and it's very very abstract, but there's a sense to me in which it is science is a sense to me in which it is science is a sense to me in which it is science is structuring the and still fundamentally structuring the and still fundamentally structuring the and still fundamentally that book is about the human story, the that book is about the human story, the that book is about the human story, the human connection. Boy, yeah. So, the human connection. Boy, yeah. So, the human connection. Boy, yeah. So, the science plays a role in creating the science plays a role in creating the science plays a role in creating the world and within it there's still really world and within it there's still really world and within it there's still really it's it's a it's a different way to it's it's a it's a different way to it's it's a it's a different way to explore human dynamics in a way that's explore human dynamics in a way that's explore human dynamics in a way that's maybe land maybe land maybe land some clarity and depth that maybe a more some clarity and depth that maybe a more some clarity and depth that maybe a more direct telling of the story would not direct telling of the story would not direct telling of the story would not Yeah. Yeah. even surreal worlds that I Yeah. Yeah. even surreal worlds that I Yeah. Yeah. even surreal worlds that I mean to me I don't know why but um I mean to me I don't know why but um I mean to me I don't know why but um I return to Orwell's Animal Farm a lot and return to Orwell's Animal Farm a lot and return to Orwell's Animal Farm a lot and there's these kind of like there's these kind of like there's these kind of like it's another art form to be able to tell it's another art form to be able to tell it's another art form to be able to tell a simple story with some surreal a simple story with some surreal a simple story with some surreal elements. Mhm. Yeah. Well, just simple elements. Mhm. Yeah. Well, just simple elements. Mhm. Yeah. Well, just simple language. Mhm. Oh, animal form is language. Mhm. Oh, animal form is language. Mhm. Oh, animal form is incredible. And in fact, some of the incredible. And in fact, some of the incredible. And in fact, some of the I've kind of played with you know some

I've kind of played with you know some I've kind of played with you know some animals are more equal than others. animals are more equal than others. animals are more equal than others. There are there are in good old There are there are in good old There are there are in good old Turring's work there were some Turring's work there were some Turring's work there were some infinities that are bigger than others. infinities that are bigger than others. infinities that are bigger than others. Yeah, there certain books just kind of Yeah, there certain books just kind of Yeah, there certain books just kind of inject themselves into our culture in a inject themselves into our culture in a inject themselves into our culture in a way that just rever reverberates and way that just rever reverberates and way that just rever reverberates and uh I don't know hasn't creates culture uh I don't know hasn't creates culture uh I don't know hasn't creates culture not just like influences. It's just like not just like influences. It's just like not just like influences. It's just like it's quite incredible how writing and it's quite incredible how writing and it's quite incredible how writing and literature can do that. Yeah. If you literature can do that. Yeah. If you literature can do that. Yeah. If you could have one definitive answer to one could have one definitive answer to one could have one definitive answer to one single question. This is the thing I single question. This is the thing I single question. This is the thing I mentioned to you. So hard. Yeah. Well, mentioned to you. So hard. Yeah. Well, mentioned to you. So hard. Yeah. Well, there's a there's an oracle and you get there's a there's an oracle and you get there's a there's an oracle and you get to talk to that oracle. You can ask to talk to that oracle. You can ask to talk to that oracle. You can ask multiple questions, but it has to be on multiple questions, but it has to be on multiple questions, but it has to be on that topic. So, just clarify. What What that topic. So, just clarify. What What that topic. So, just clarify. What What mystery of of the universe would you mystery of of the universe would you mystery of of the universe would you want that oracle to help you with? You want that oracle to help you with? You want that oracle to help you with? You know, it's funny. I should say the know, it's funny. I should say the know, it's funny. I should say the obvious thing and but I feel like I obvious thing and but I feel like I obvious thing and but I feel like I almost feel like it would be greedy. I I almost feel like it would be greedy. I I almost feel like it would be greedy. I I think I have a complicated response to think I have a complicated response to think I have a complicated response to this. The obvious thing for me to say this. The obvious thing for me to say this. The obvious thing for me to say would be I want to understand quantum would be I want to understand quantum would be I want to understand quantum gravity or if gravity's emergent. Um gravity or if gravity's emergent. Um gravity or if gravity's emergent. Um it's not even something I work on it's not even something I work on it's not even something I work on daytoday. You know I I mostly daytoday. You know I I mostly daytoday. You know I I mostly just look with interest at what others just look with interest at what others just look with interest at what others are doing and if I think I can jump in I are doing and if I think I can jump in I are doing and if I think I can jump in I would but I'm not jumping into the fray.

would but I'm not jumping into the fray. would but I'm not jumping into the fray. But obviously that's the big that's the But obviously that's the big that's the But obviously that's the big that's the big one and and there is a sort of sense big one and and there is a sort of sense big one and and there is a sort of sense that with that will come the answers to that with that will come the answers to that with that will come the answers to all these other things. My complicated all these other things. My complicated all these other things. My complicated relationship is that well, you know, relationship is that well, you know, relationship is that well, you know, part of the scientific disposition isn't part of the scientific disposition isn't part of the scientific disposition isn't having stuff you don't know the answer having stuff you don't know the answer having stuff you don't know the answer to. I mean, we're not going to have all to. I mean, we're not going to have all to. I mean, we're not going to have all the answers. I hope because then sort of the answers. I hope because then sort of the answers. I hope because then sort of then what, right? It's sort of then what, right? It's sort of then what, right? It's sort of dystopian. I totally agree with you. dystopian. I totally agree with you. dystopian. I totally agree with you. There's some I like the mysteries we There's some I like the mysteries we There's some I like the mysteries we have. Yeah. Uh I kind of had this have. Yeah. Uh I kind of had this have. Yeah. Uh I kind of had this assumption that there will always be assumption that there will always be assumption that there will always be mysteries, so you want to keep solving mysteries, so you want to keep solving mysteries, so you want to keep solving them. They will lead to more. In the them. They will lead to more. In the them. They will lead to more. In the same way that relativity led to black same way that relativity led to black same way that relativity led to black holes, black holes led to the holes, black holes led to the holes, black holes led to the information loss paradox or the big bang information loss paradox or the big bang information loss paradox or the big bang or what happened before or the or what happened before or the or what happened before or the multiverse. It's because we learned so multiverse. It's because we learned so multiverse. It's because we learned so much we were able to escalate to the much we were able to escalate to the much we were able to escalate to the next level of abstraction. Yeah. Yeah, next level of abstraction. Yeah. Yeah, next level of abstraction. Yeah. Yeah, by the way, we should mention that if by the way, we should mention that if by the way, we should mention that if you're talking historical and even if you're talking historical and even if you're talking historical and even if you ask the obvious question about you ask the obvious question about you ask the obvious question about quantum gravity, I almost guarantee with quantum gravity, I almost guarantee with quantum gravity, I almost guarantee with 100% probability 100% probability 100% probability that even if all your questions are that even if all your questions are that even if all your questions are answered, it's impossible to get to the answered, it's impossible to get to the answered, it's impossible to get to the end of your questions because it says um end of your questions because it says um end of your questions because it says um you know Oracle will say no, you can't you know Oracle will say no, you can't you know Oracle will say no, you can't unify.

unify. unify. But then you say well wait yeah yeah But then you say well wait yeah yeah But then you say well wait yeah yeah yeah and then you say emergent and then yeah and then you say emergent and then yeah and then you say emergent and then the or you know Oracle say well uh the or you know Oracle say well uh the or you know Oracle say well uh everything you think is fundamental is everything you think is fundamental is everything you think is fundamental is not it's emergent. It's like okay well not it's emergent. It's like okay well not it's emergent. It's like okay well this is this is we need to more this is this is we need to more this is this is we need to more questions right I mean it's been a questions right I mean it's been a questions right I mean it's been a hundred years more since relativity and hundred years more since relativity and hundred years more since relativity and we're still picking it apart. Yeah. No we're still picking it apart. Yeah. No we're still picking it apart. Yeah. No and there will be there may be new ones. and there will be there may be new ones. and there will be there may be new ones. Mhm. You write that eventually all our Mhm. You write that eventually all our Mhm. You write that eventually all our history in this universe will be erased. history in this universe will be erased. history in this universe will be erased. M how does that make you feel? M how does that make you feel? M how does that make you feel? Yeah, that's a tough thought. But again, Yeah, that's a tough thought. But again, Yeah, that's a tough thought. But again, I think there's a way in which we can I think there's a way in which we can I think there's a way in which we can come to terms with that that that's kind come to terms with that that that's kind come to terms with that that that's kind of poetic. You know, you build something of poetic. You know, you build something of poetic. You know, you build something in the sand and then you erase it. Yeah. So, I think it's just a reminder Yeah. So, I think it's just a reminder that we have to be concerned about our that we have to be concerned about our that we have to be concerned about our immediate experience too, right? how we immediate experience too, right? how we immediate experience too, right? how we are to those around us, how they are to are to those around us, how they are to are to those around us, how they are to us, what we leave behind in the near us, what we leave behind in the near us, what we leave behind in the near term, what we leave behind in the long term, what we leave behind in the long term, what we leave behind in the long term, have we contributed and and did term, have we contributed and and did term, have we contributed and and did we, you know, did we contribute overall we, you know, did we contribute overall we, you know, did we contribute overall net net net positive?

positive? positive? Um eventually I think it's kind of hard Um eventually I think it's kind of hard Um eventually I think it's kind of hard to imagine but yes all of these Nobel to imagine but yes all of these Nobel to imagine but yes all of these Nobel prizes all of these mathematical proofs prizes all of these mathematical proofs prizes all of these mathematical proofs all of these conversations all these all of these conversations all these all of these conversations all these ideas all the influence we have on each ideas all the influence we have on each ideas all the influence we have on each other even the AI other even the AI other even the AI eventually will expire. eventually will expire. eventually will expire. Well at the very least we can uh focus Well at the very least we can uh focus Well at the very least we can uh focus on drawing something beautiful in the on drawing something beautiful in the on drawing something beautiful in the sand. Yeah. Before it's washed away. sand. Yeah. Before it's washed away. sand. Yeah. Before it's washed away. Well, this was an incredible Well, this was an incredible Well, this was an incredible conversation. I'm truly grateful for the conversation. I'm truly grateful for the conversation. I'm truly grateful for the work you do and me for your work. Thanks work you do and me for your work. Thanks work you do and me for your work. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you for so much for having me. Thank you for so much for having me. Thank you for talking today. Yeah, lots of fun. Thanks talking today. Yeah, lots of fun. Thanks talking today. Yeah, lots of fun. Thanks for listening to this conversation with for listening to this conversation with for listening to this conversation with Channel 11. To support this podcast, Channel 11. To support this podcast, Channel 11. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the please check out our sponsors in the please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you description. And now, let me leave you description. And now, let me leave you with some words from Albert Einstein on with some words from Albert Einstein on with some words from Albert Einstein on the topic of the topic of the topic of relativity. When you're courting a nice relativity. When you're courting a nice relativity. When you're courting a nice girl, an hour seems like a second. When girl, an hour seems like a second. When girl, an hour seems like a second. When you sit on a red hot cinder, a second you sit on a red hot cinder, a second you sit on a red hot cinder, a second seems like an hour. That's seems like an hour. That's seems like an hour. That's relativity. Thank you for listening and relativity. Thank you for listening and relativity. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.