Shannon Curry: Johnny Depp & Amber Heard Trial, Marriage, Dating & Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #366

so contempt is criticism on steroids so contempt is criticism on steroids this is what John gottman calls sulfuric this is what John gottman calls sulfuric this is what John gottman calls sulfuric acid for love nothing will erode a acid for love nothing will erode a acid for love nothing will erode a relationship quicker than contempt relationship quicker than contempt relationship quicker than contempt contempt is when you are looking at your contempt is when you are looking at your contempt is when you are looking at your partner from a superior position so you partner from a superior position so you partner from a superior position so you are eye rolling you are name calling are eye rolling you are name calling are eye rolling you are name calling um there's a mockery mocking even um there's a mockery mocking even um there's a mockery mocking even physical mockery imitating them physical mockery imitating them physical mockery imitating them imitating their voice contempt is meant imitating their voice contempt is meant imitating their voice contempt is meant to just take the legs out from your to just take the legs out from your to just take the legs out from your partner make them feel pathetic partner make them feel pathetic partner make them feel pathetic ridiculous ridiculous ridiculous um and it can be abusive but um and it can be abusive but um and it can be abusive but um most people have engaged in contempt um most people have engaged in contempt um most people have engaged in contempt at some point in their relationship at some point in their relationship at some point in their relationship lower level would be sort of the eye lower level would be sort of the eye lower level would be sort of the eye rolling but that is the biggest rolling but that is the biggest rolling but that is the biggest predictor of a split the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with Shannon Curry a clinical and forensic Shannon Curry a clinical and forensic Shannon Curry a clinical and forensic psychologist who conducts research psychologist who conducts research psychologist who conducts research therapy and psychological evaluations therapy and psychological evaluations therapy and psychological evaluations pertaining to trauma violence and pertaining to trauma violence and pertaining to trauma violence and relationships she received worldwide relationships she received worldwide relationships she received worldwide attention in April of last year by attention in April of last year by attention in April of last year by giving a lengthy televised testimony on giving a lengthy televised testimony on giving a lengthy televised testimony on her psychological evaluation of Amber her psychological evaluation of Amber her psychological evaluation of Amber Heard during the Johnny Depp Amber Heard Heard during the Johnny Depp Amber Heard Heard during the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial I found her testimony to be an trial I found her testimony to be an trial I found her testimony to be an eloquent description of complex eloquent description of complex eloquent description of complex psychological Concepts and evaluations psychological Concepts and evaluations psychological Concepts and evaluations procedures so I reached out for a chat procedures so I reached out for a chat procedures so I reached out for a chat in person she was brilliant funny in person she was brilliant funny in person she was brilliant funny thoughtful and truly kind I really thoughtful and truly kind I really thoughtful and truly kind I really really enjoyed this conversation this is really enjoyed this conversation this is really enjoyed this conversation this is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it the Lex Friedman podcast to support it the Lex Friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors in the

please check out our sponsors in the please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends here's description and now dear friends here's description and now dear friends here's Shannon Curry Shannon Curry Shannon Curry Charles Bukowski said that love is a fog Charles Bukowski said that love is a fog Charles Bukowski said that love is a fog that burns away with the first daylight that burns away with the first daylight that burns away with the first daylight of reality I love that quote uh do you of reality I love that quote uh do you of reality I love that quote uh do you think romantic love Fades away in this think romantic love Fades away in this think romantic love Fades away in this way Makowski uh does it does it have to way Makowski uh does it does it have to way Makowski uh does it does it have to fade the truth is that you have all of fade the truth is that you have all of fade the truth is that you have all of these chemicals pumping through your these chemicals pumping through your these chemicals pumping through your body you're essentially high on heroin body you're essentially high on heroin body you're essentially high on heroin in the beginning of a romance and you're in the beginning of a romance and you're in the beginning of a romance and you're going to have these rose-colored glasses going to have these rose-colored glasses going to have these rose-colored glasses on everything your partner does is on everything your partner does is on everything your partner does is magical and but really it's the novelty magical and but really it's the novelty magical and but really it's the novelty it's just like going on a vacation it's just like going on a vacation it's just like going on a vacation you're fully present you're just attuned you're fully present you're just attuned you're fully present you're just attuned to the magic of another human being to the magic of another human being to the magic of another human being moment to moment and then on top of that moment to moment and then on top of that moment to moment and then on top of that you have you're just flooded with you have you're just flooded with you have you're just flooded with dopamine so you're high on drugs and we dopamine so you're high on drugs and we dopamine so you're high on drugs and we can't go on like that you will die if can't go on like that you will die if can't go on like that you will die if you are using these kinds of chemicals you are using these kinds of chemicals you are using these kinds of chemicals all the time all day long so eventually all the time all day long so eventually all the time all day long so eventually our bodies are sort of made to dial it our bodies are sort of made to dial it our bodies are sort of made to dial it down we've made it I mean we're down we've made it I mean we're down we've made it I mean we're evolutionary beings we are doing the evolutionary beings we are doing the evolutionary beings we are doing the same thing we did 200 000 years ago to same thing we did 200 000 years ago to same thing we did 200 000 years ago to find a mate procreate spend enough time find a mate procreate spend enough time find a mate procreate spend enough time with each other that we have sex with with each other that we have sex with with each other that we have sex with whole bunch of times and make babies whole bunch of times and make babies whole bunch of times and make babies now we've changed the rules of the game now we've changed the rules of the game now we've changed the rules of the game we're living you know almost until we're we're living you know almost until we're we're living you know almost until we're 100 years old in some cases we're making 100 years old in some cases we're making 100 years old in some cases we're making these marriage commitments that last these marriage commitments that last these marriage commitments that last half a century and uh we're expecting it half a century and uh we're expecting it half a century and uh we're expecting it to be all because of love and we're to be all because of love and we're to be all because of love and we're signing these contracts based on how we signing these contracts based on how we signing these contracts based on how we feel when we're high on these drugs so feel when we're high on these drugs so feel when we're high on these drugs so the reality is we know based on the re

the reality is we know based on the re the reality is we know based on the re and and I'm also talking about certain and and I'm also talking about certain and and I'm also talking about certain Western civilizations here because as Western civilizations here because as Western civilizations here because as you know there are arranged marriages you know there are arranged marriages you know there are arranged marriages and a lot of times those marriages if and a lot of times those marriages if and a lot of times those marriages if we're looking at longevity are actually we're looking at longevity are actually we're looking at longevity are actually way more satisfied than people who are way more satisfied than people who are way more satisfied than people who are marrying for love which logically makes marrying for love which logically makes marrying for love which logically makes sense if you're making a decision based sense if you're making a decision based sense if you're making a decision based on a feeling that is basically based on on a feeling that is basically based on on a feeling that is basically based on endorphins and dopamine and oxytocin endorphins and dopamine and oxytocin endorphins and dopamine and oxytocin I wouldn't sign a contract just because I wouldn't sign a contract just because I wouldn't sign a contract just because of a feeling necessary you know for 50 of a feeling necessary you know for 50 of a feeling necessary you know for 50 years whereas an arranged marriage if years whereas an arranged marriage if years whereas an arranged marriage if you have your elders kind of deciding you have your elders kind of deciding you have your elders kind of deciding for you that this partner has a bunch of for you that this partner has a bunch of for you that this partner has a bunch of traits that you're going to appreciate traits that you're going to appreciate traits that you're going to appreciate more and more over time more and more over time more and more over time I think there's some wisdom there so you I think there's some wisdom there so you I think there's some wisdom there so you don't think that feeling could be a don't think that feeling could be a don't think that feeling could be a foundation for a 50-year relationship foundation for a 50-year relationship foundation for a 50-year relationship well I don't think that specific feeling well I don't think that specific feeling well I don't think that specific feeling you're having based on drugs is going to you're having based on drugs is going to you're having based on drugs is going to be the same feeling you have 20 30 40 be the same feeling you have 20 30 40 be the same feeling you have 20 30 40 years down the line if you're going to years down the line if you're going to years down the line if you're going to wake up and turn to your partner when wake up and turn to your partner when wake up and turn to your partner when you're 70 and think oh my God I'm so you're 70 and think oh my God I'm so you're 70 and think oh my God I'm so glad you're hot you are so hot yeah then glad you're hot you are so hot yeah then glad you're hot you are so hot yeah then sure marry for hotness but if you've sure marry for hotness but if you've sure marry for hotness but if you've been through life a little bit and I been through life a little bit and I been through life a little bit and I think most people who are on a second think most people who are on a second think most people who are on a second marriage know shit happens in life it is marriage know shit happens in life it is marriage know shit happens in life it is hard you're gonna have you know maybe a hard you're gonna have you know maybe a hard you're gonna have you know maybe a kid with special needs or your dad gets kid with special needs or your dad gets kid with special needs or your dad gets Dementia or you get diagnosed with Dementia or you get diagnosed with Dementia or you get diagnosed with cancer who are you going to want to come cancer who are you going to want to come cancer who are you going to want to come home to who is going to hold you when home to who is going to hold you when home to who is going to hold you when you are sobbing on the floor and tell

you are sobbing on the floor and tell you are sobbing on the floor and tell you we're going to get through it you we're going to get through it you we're going to get through it together who's going to know the names together who's going to know the names together who's going to know the names of your kids special ed teacher and the of your kids special ed teacher and the of your kids special ed teacher and the process for getting a 504 plan or is it process for getting a 504 plan or is it process for getting a 504 plan or is it going to be you on your own I think going to be you on your own I think going to be you on your own I think those things matter but doesn't that those things matter but doesn't that those things matter but doesn't that hotness don't those drugs kind of hotness don't those drugs kind of hotness don't those drugs kind of solidify into a deeper appreciation of solidify into a deeper appreciation of solidify into a deeper appreciation of the other person the other person the other person into something you could call Beauty yes into something you could call Beauty yes into something you could call Beauty yes uh they can but but isn't that the same uh they can but but isn't that the same uh they can but but isn't that the same isn't that the same thing when you know isn't that the same thing when you know isn't that the same thing when you know when you notice the beauty of another when you notice the beauty of another when you notice the beauty of another human being aren't you aren't you high human being aren't you aren't you high human being aren't you aren't you high on drugs still you're making it sound on drugs still you're making it sound on drugs still you're making it sound like there's like a a brief rock star like there's like a a brief rock star like there's like a a brief rock star period of going on heroin and then it's period of going on heroin and then it's period of going on heroin and then it's over but like can't you be on heroin over but like can't you be on heroin over but like can't you be on heroin your whole life I have some good news your whole life I have some good news your whole life I have some good news that was something I think one of the that was something I think one of the that was something I think one of the reasons I got into studying reasons I got into studying reasons I got into studying relationships was because I wanted that relationships was because I wanted that relationships was because I wanted that right so I'm a scientist but I also love right so I'm a scientist but I also love right so I'm a scientist but I also love art and I love writing and I love art and I love writing and I love art and I love writing and I love literature I wanted to know that true literature I wanted to know that true literature I wanted to know that true love could be real but as a scientist I love could be real but as a scientist I love could be real but as a scientist I am cynical I just need some data and am cynical I just need some data and am cynical I just need some data and when so I practice the type of therapy when so I practice the type of therapy when so I practice the type of therapy called the gottman method and I love called the gottman method and I love called the gottman method and I love that because it tends to be well it is that because it tends to be well it is that because it tends to be well it is one of the most evidence-based therapies one of the most evidence-based therapies one of the most evidence-based therapies we have based on John and Julie gottman we have based on John and Julie gottman we have based on John and Julie gottman two psychologists who have been two psychologists who have been two psychologists who have been researching relationships for now about researching relationships for now about researching relationships for now about 50 years and this therapy happens to be 50 years and this therapy happens to be 50 years and this therapy happens to be for couples they found that you for couples they found that you for couples they found that you absolutely can make longevity work in a absolutely can make longevity work in a absolutely can make longevity work in a relationship you can build you are not

relationship you can build you are not relationship you can build you are not just settling for companionship but you just settling for companionship but you just settling for companionship but you can have passion and intimacy and can have passion and intimacy and can have passion and intimacy and growing love and appreciation but there growing love and appreciation but there growing love and appreciation but there is a blueprint a set of skills that we is a blueprint a set of skills that we is a blueprint a set of skills that we were never given we're not taught in were never given we're not taught in were never given we're not taught in school we changed the rules of the game school we changed the rules of the game school we changed the rules of the game and we haven't learned the rules yet and we haven't learned the rules yet and we haven't learned the rules yet and uh the government method for couples and uh the government method for couples and uh the government method for couples therapy kind of gives you a few therapy kind of gives you a few therapy kind of gives you a few guidelines the rules for longevity in a guidelines the rules for longevity in a guidelines the rules for longevity in a relationship yeah they did a beautiful relationship yeah they did a beautiful relationship yeah they did a beautiful job at taking these findings they had job at taking these findings they had job at taking these findings they had through you know Decades of research through you know Decades of research through you know Decades of research quantifying it and then codifying it quantifying it and then codifying it quantifying it and then codifying it into a therapy method it's really skills into a therapy method it's really skills into a therapy method it's really skills based I tell couples when they're based I tell couples when they're based I tell couples when they're starting out with me that they're starting out with me that they're starting out with me that they're essentially going to be starting a class essentially going to be starting a class essentially going to be starting a class so what's the five to one Golden Rule so what's the five to one Golden Rule so what's the five to one Golden Rule what I read is there's the kind of what I read is there's the kind of what I read is there's the kind of balance you can achieve of balance you can achieve of balance you can achieve of uh how many interactions you have in a uh how many interactions you have in a uh how many interactions you have in a relationships that are positive versus relationships that are positive versus relationships that are positive versus negative and I think that's what the negative and I think that's what the negative and I think that's what the five to one means but basically there five to one means but basically there five to one means but basically there should be a kind of an empirical should be a kind of an empirical should be a kind of an empirical like if you just look back over over a like if you just look back over over a like if you just look back over over a month how many of the interactions were month how many of the interactions were month how many of the interactions were positive for the day or the day positive for the day or the day positive for the day or the day right so the the idea of this ratio right so the the idea of this ratio right so the the idea of this ratio um well it's not an idea it was a um well it's not an idea it was a um well it's not an idea it was a finding it is uh research finding that finding it is uh research finding that finding it is uh research finding that the gottman's got after looking at the gottman's got after looking at the gottman's got after looking at thousands of couples thousands of couples thousands of couples um and codifying these interactions that um and codifying these interactions that um and codifying these interactions that they were observing couples that tend to they were observing couples that tend to they were observing couples that tend to be satisfied in their relationships that be satisfied in their relationships that be satisfied in their relationships that are happier they have better health Etc are happier they have better health Etc are happier they have better health Etc they are having approximately five

they are having approximately five they are having approximately five positive interactions to each negative positive interactions to each negative positive interactions to each negative and I want to be clear about what I'm and I want to be clear about what I'm and I want to be clear about what I'm defining as positive and negative here defining as positive and negative here defining as positive and negative here so this doesn't necessarily mean that so this doesn't necessarily mean that so this doesn't necessarily mean that you're these don't need to be big you're these don't need to be big you're these don't need to be big sweeping romantic gestures buying sweeping romantic gestures buying sweeping romantic gestures buying flowers having sex these are things like flowers having sex these are things like flowers having sex these are things like paying attention to what we call your paying attention to what we call your paying attention to what we call your partner's bids we make these bids for partner's bids we make these bids for partner's bids we make these bids for affection for connection all the time in affection for connection all the time in affection for connection all the time in our relationships not just with our our relationships not just with our our relationships not just with our partners but with our friends our partners but with our friends our partners but with our friends our co-workers and we may not even know what co-workers and we may not even know what co-workers and we may not even know what our style of bid is but if you see them our style of bid is but if you see them our style of bid is but if you see them on a sheet you can pretty quickly on a sheet you can pretty quickly on a sheet you can pretty quickly identify them bids could be wanting to identify them bids could be wanting to identify them bids could be wanting to show your partner tell your partner show your partner tell your partner show your partner tell your partner something and have them be proud of you something and have them be proud of you something and have them be proud of you it could be wanting to go buy groceries it could be wanting to go buy groceries it could be wanting to go buy groceries with your partner doing things together with your partner doing things together with your partner doing things together hey you want to come with me it could be hey you want to come with me it could be hey you want to come with me it could be telling a joke and hoping that your wife telling a joke and hoping that your wife telling a joke and hoping that your wife looks up from her email on the computer looks up from her email on the computer looks up from her email on the computer and acknowledges it if she laughs then and acknowledges it if she laughs then and acknowledges it if she laughs then you've got a positive but if I don't you've got a positive but if I don't you've got a positive but if I don't even look up that's a negative right so even look up that's a negative right so even look up that's a negative right so it's not necessarily that I'm calling my it's not necessarily that I'm calling my it's not necessarily that I'm calling my husband an asshole it's just am I husband an asshole it's just am I husband an asshole it's just am I connecting with him am I meeting those connecting with him am I meeting those connecting with him am I meeting those bids for connection and vice versa but bids for connection and vice versa but bids for connection and vice versa but do those also give you a guide of how do those also give you a guide of how do those also give you a guide of how you should behave you should behave you should behave well I think what's really important is well I think what's really important is well I think what's really important is actually asking your partner or paying actually asking your partner or paying actually asking your partner or paying attention to what your partner's bids attention to what your partner's bids attention to what your partner's bids are because what matters to Ty my are because what matters to Ty my are because what matters to Ty my husband may not matter to you for husband may not matter to you for husband may not matter to you for instance I mean Ty's bar is so low with instance I mean Ty's bar is so low with instance I mean Ty's bar is so low with me I thank God what defines the positive

me I thank God what defines the positive me I thank God what defines the positive interaction right like he just wants me interaction right like he just wants me interaction right like he just wants me once become if if he wants a water when once become if if he wants a water when once become if if he wants a water when I get up to get myself one just be a I get up to get myself one just be a I get up to get myself one just be a basic decent considerate person is all basic decent considerate person is all basic decent considerate person is all he asks of me whereas mine might be sort he asks of me whereas mine might be sort he asks of me whereas mine might be sort of like stay up later with me watch a of like stay up later with me watch a of like stay up later with me watch a show show show um go to bed at the same time as me or um go to bed at the same time as me or um go to bed at the same time as me or um know about the people in my life that um know about the people in my life that um know about the people in my life that sort of a thing I should highlight this sort of a thing I should highlight this sort of a thing I should highlight this and I hope hopefully it's okay that you and I hope hopefully it's okay that you and I hope hopefully it's okay that you were running a little bit late and you were running a little bit late and you were running a little bit late and you sent me this text which is which people sent me this text which is which people sent me this text which is which people do really rarely and there's a subtle do really rarely and there's a subtle do really rarely and there's a subtle act of kindness within that text so the act of kindness within that text so the act of kindness within that text so the the you the text you sent was that the you the text you sent was that the you the text you sent was that um I just decreased the amount of stress um I just decreased the amount of stress um I just decreased the amount of stress in your life or something like this by in your life or something like this by in your life or something like this by saying it's cool but that means that you saying it's cool but that means that you saying it's cool but that means that you were you're you're signaling that you were you're you're signaling that you were you're you're signaling that you were stressed were stressed were stressed because you care enough to be there on because you care enough to be there on because you care enough to be there on time and that was like that made me feel time and that was like that made me feel time and that was like that made me feel really special I was like oh you know really special I was like oh you know really special I was like oh you know people don't know people don't often people don't know people don't often people don't know people don't often don't always do that because that puts don't always do that because that puts don't always do that because that puts you also that makes you vulnerable you also that makes you vulnerable you also that makes you vulnerable vulnerable and I actually thought that vulnerable and I actually thought that vulnerable and I actually thought that after I sent it but I feel that most of after I sent it but I feel that most of after I sent it but I feel that most of the day any interaction like oh God I the day any interaction like oh God I the day any interaction like oh God I just expose myself but absolutely I was just expose myself but absolutely I was just expose myself but absolutely I was excited to be here and I didn't want you excited to be here and I didn't want you excited to be here and I didn't want you to think that I didn't care to think that I didn't care to think that I didn't care I think being a therapist has shown me I think being a therapist has shown me I think being a therapist has shown me that it really it's so lucky to be in that it really it's so lucky to be in that it really it's so lucky to be in that position because you meet people that position because you meet people that position because you meet people that you would have thought are cooler that you would have thought are cooler that you would have thought are cooler than you or smarter than you or just

than you or smarter than you or just than you or smarter than you or just somehow impervious to life and you somehow impervious to life and you somehow impervious to life and you realize that we are all in it together realize that we are all in it together realize that we are all in it together we all want to be cared about and liked we all want to be cared about and liked we all want to be cared about and liked we all would want to be liked as a we all would want to be liked as a we all would want to be liked as a baseline I some people will say they baseline I some people will say they baseline I some people will say they don't care but everybody does it's human don't care but everybody does it's human don't care but everybody does it's human and I have gotten much better being a and I have gotten much better being a and I have gotten much better being a therapist much more comfortable showing therapist much more comfortable showing therapist much more comfortable showing caring showing love and genuineness and caring showing love and genuineness and caring showing love and genuineness and vulnerability than I think I ever would vulnerability than I think I ever would vulnerability than I think I ever would have been otherwise and that kind of have been otherwise and that kind of have been otherwise and that kind of vulnerability is what's required to do a vulnerability is what's required to do a vulnerability is what's required to do a positive interaction in a relationship I positive interaction in a relationship I positive interaction in a relationship I think so and and people have different think so and and people have different think so and and people have different levels of comfort right so levels of comfort right so levels of comfort right so um but as long as it's working for both um but as long as it's working for both um but as long as it's working for both partners and typically you have to partners and typically you have to partners and typically you have to communicate to figure out what your communicate to figure out what your communicate to figure out what your partner what makes your partner feel partner what makes your partner feel partner what makes your partner feel cared about however you might be working cared about however you might be working cared about however you might be working for instance with an older couple and I for instance with an older couple and I for instance with an older couple and I have a couple that's perfectly happy and have a couple that's perfectly happy and have a couple that's perfectly happy and they sort of have a system it works for they sort of have a system it works for they sort of have a system it works for them if there's some sort of a rupture them if there's some sort of a rupture them if there's some sort of a rupture if they get in some sort of a if they get in some sort of a if they get in some sort of a disagreement they don't talk it out she disagreement they don't talk it out she disagreement they don't talk it out she might go to the store run an errand might go to the store run an errand might go to the store run an errand doing do a little shopping he'll work in doing do a little shopping he'll work in doing do a little shopping he'll work in the wood shop and then they'll come back the wood shop and then they'll come back the wood shop and then they'll come back and there is a repair attempt though but and there is a repair attempt though but and there is a repair attempt though but it's maybe she'll say hey do you want to it's maybe she'll say hey do you want to it's maybe she'll say hey do you want to have dinner or come you know I made your have dinner or come you know I made your have dinner or come you know I made your favorite dinner and or he'll say hey I favorite dinner and or he'll say hey I favorite dinner and or he'll say hey I recorded your favorite show you want to recorded your favorite show you want to recorded your favorite show you want to watch it tonight so they don't need to watch it tonight so they don't need to watch it tonight so they don't need to process it but there is an understanding process it but there is an understanding process it but there is an understanding between them that we're still in this between them that we're still in this between them that we're still in this together we care about each other and together we care about each other and together we care about each other and there's a repair attempt there's a repair attempt there's a repair attempt most people need to be able to process most people need to be able to process most people need to be able to process it verbally and talk about what happened it verbally and talk about what happened it verbally and talk about what happened not all so for most people if there's a not all so for most people if there's a not all so for most people if there's a conflict you should talk about and

conflict you should talk about and conflict you should talk about and resolve it and repair it versus like resolve it and repair it versus like resolve it and repair it versus like just put it behind you I I don't want to just put it behind you I I don't want to just put it behind you I I don't want to say should I guess it depends on the say should I guess it depends on the say should I guess it depends on the couple yeah everybody processes emotions couple yeah everybody processes emotions couple yeah everybody processes emotions differently everybody handles emotional differently everybody handles emotional differently everybody handles emotional expression differently I mean I have expression differently I mean I have expression differently I mean I have couples where I have one person in the couples where I have one person in the couples where I have one person in the partnership who has autism and the other partnership who has autism and the other partnership who has autism and the other doesn't and so they're obviously going doesn't and so they're obviously going doesn't and so they're obviously going to have different ways of communicating to have different ways of communicating to have different ways of communicating or processing what happened we all have or processing what happened we all have or processing what happened we all have different perspectives it really depends different perspectives it really depends different perspectives it really depends on what makes a person feel like it's on what makes a person feel like it's on what makes a person feel like it's been repaired what makes a person feel been repaired what makes a person feel been repaired what makes a person feel understood does that need to be verbal understood does that need to be verbal understood does that need to be verbal or in the case of that older couple I or in the case of that older couple I or in the case of that older couple I have where they know they understand one have where they know they understand one have where they know they understand one another because there's a gentleness another because there's a gentleness another because there's a gentleness toward one another after toward one another after toward one another after what are some common ways relationships what are some common ways relationships what are some common ways relationships fail that you've observed and all the fail that you've observed and all the fail that you've observed and all the therapy you've done well the governments therapy you've done well the governments therapy you've done well the governments identified what they call the Four identified what they call the Four identified what they call the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse so okay Horsemen of the Apocalypse so okay Horsemen of the Apocalypse so okay I mean I could just keep it simple and I mean I could just keep it simple and I mean I could just keep it simple and go off their research so they're those go off their research so they're those go off their research so they're those are four different behaviors that they are four different behaviors that they are four different behaviors that they identify in couples or that you can identify in couples or that you can identify in couples or that you can identify in couples that are really identify in couples that are really identify in couples that are really highly predictive of a divorce some more highly predictive of a divorce some more highly predictive of a divorce some more than others but I'll start with the than others but I'll start with the than others but I'll start with the lower ones lower ones lower ones so one thing that we by the way actually so one thing that we by the way actually so one thing that we by the way actually we all do these things these would be in we all do these things these would be in we all do these things these would be in that five to one ratio you'd want to that five to one ratio you'd want to that five to one ratio you'd want to stay away from some of these these are stay away from some of these these are stay away from some of these these are the ones so as they pile up now that the ones so as they pile up now that the ones so as they pile up now that ratio is going to get imbalanced and ratio is going to get imbalanced and ratio is going to get imbalanced and then you are headed for a split okay so

then you are headed for a split okay so then you are headed for a split okay so the first is criticism the first is criticism the first is criticism so criticism is when we have a complaint so criticism is when we have a complaint so criticism is when we have a complaint complaints are normal but instead of complaints are normal but instead of complaints are normal but instead of owning our own problems our own feelings owning our own problems our own feelings owning our own problems our own feelings we assume that our perspective is com we assume that our perspective is com we assume that our perspective is com the only valid accurate perspective and the only valid accurate perspective and the only valid accurate perspective and so we uh take it upon ourselves to tell so we uh take it upon ourselves to tell so we uh take it upon ourselves to tell our partner what is wrong with them okay our partner what is wrong with them okay our partner what is wrong with them okay so there there's essentially no real so there there's essentially no real so there there's essentially no real belief that they might have a valid belief that they might have a valid belief that they might have a valid perspective too so perspective too so perspective too so this could look like you never helped me this could look like you never helped me this could look like you never helped me out in that with the house or even out in that with the house or even out in that with the house or even um you're so lazy like can't I just get um you're so lazy like can't I just get um you're so lazy like can't I just get you for five seconds to help with the you for five seconds to help with the you for five seconds to help with the kids or something like that kids or something like that kids or something like that um and then what happens is Horsemen um and then what happens is Horsemen um and then what happens is Horsemen number two defensiveness so uh not number two defensiveness so uh not number two defensiveness so uh not everybody is defensive just because they everybody is defensive just because they everybody is defensive just because they were criticized some people just are were criticized some people just are were criticized some people just are more prone to defensiveness than others more prone to defensiveness than others more prone to defensiveness than others none of us really like admitting our none of us really like admitting our none of us really like admitting our faults so it's pretty natural faults so it's pretty natural faults so it's pretty natural but defensiveness is essentially making but defensiveness is essentially making but defensiveness is essentially making excuses or Worse turning it around on excuses or Worse turning it around on excuses or Worse turning it around on your partner your partner your partner not accepting any responsibility and not accepting any responsibility and not accepting any responsibility and definitely not validating what they're definitely not validating what they're definitely not validating what they're feeling feeling feeling now if you get criticized enough or if now if you get criticized enough or if now if you get criticized enough or if you get really flooded that flooding is you get really flooded that flooding is you get really flooded that flooding is what happens when our heart rate goes up what happens when our heart rate goes up what happens when our heart rate goes up kind of around 100 beats per minute our kind of around 100 beats per minute our kind of around 100 beats per minute our frontal lobe shuts down that's our frontal lobe shuts down that's our frontal lobe shuts down that's our thoughtful brain our logical brain and thoughtful brain our logical brain and thoughtful brain our logical brain and our reptilian kind of hindbrain takes our reptilian kind of hindbrain takes our reptilian kind of hindbrain takes over our thinking over our thinking over our thinking and we just go into fight or flight in a and we just go into fight or flight in a and we just go into fight or flight in a white week we just want to annihilate white week we just want to annihilate white week we just want to annihilate our partner instead instead of say

our partner instead instead of say our partner instead instead of say anything that would be helpful to the anything that would be helpful to the anything that would be helpful to the relationship relationship relationship so if you're getting flooded you could so if you're getting flooded you could so if you're getting flooded you could do a couple things you could get super do a couple things you could get super do a couple things you could get super critical you could get contemptuous critical you could get contemptuous critical you could get contemptuous which I'll talk about in a second it's which I'll talk about in a second it's which I'll talk about in a second it's the last Horseman or you do the third the last Horseman or you do the third the last Horseman or you do the third Horseman which is stonewalling and in Horseman which is stonewalling and in Horseman which is stonewalling and in their research the gottman's found that their research the gottman's found that their research the gottman's found that men are actually more likely to men are actually more likely to men are actually more likely to Stonewall I also am someone who Stonewall I also am someone who Stonewall I also am someone who stonewalls but it's where you just sort stonewalls but it's where you just sort stonewalls but it's where you just sort of Disconnect from the conversation you of Disconnect from the conversation you of Disconnect from the conversation you shut down you turn away you can shut down you turn away you can shut down you turn away you can physically even turn away kind of arms physically even turn away kind of arms physically even turn away kind of arms cross but you're just you're shut off cross but you're just you're shut off cross but you're just you're shut off and stonewalling happens usually because and stonewalling happens usually because and stonewalling happens usually because you get flooded you feel like you can't you get flooded you feel like you can't you get flooded you feel like you can't win you don't know what to do to make win you don't know what to do to make win you don't know what to do to make the situation better it feels pretty the situation better it feels pretty the situation better it feels pretty hopeless and talking feels unproductive hopeless and talking feels unproductive hopeless and talking feels unproductive so you can see how in a typical so you can see how in a typical so you can see how in a typical heterosexual relationship the gender heterosexual relationship the gender heterosexual relationship the gender Dynamic we know that women tend to use Dynamic we know that women tend to use Dynamic we know that women tend to use criticism more often because they're the criticism more often because they're the criticism more often because they're the ones that typically raise issues ones that typically raise issues ones that typically raise issues verbally and then if men are feeling verbally and then if men are feeling verbally and then if men are feeling more criticized that they tend to more criticized that they tend to more criticized that they tend to Stonewall and it becomes this vicious Stonewall and it becomes this vicious Stonewall and it becomes this vicious cycle of then more criticism but the cycle of then more criticism but the cycle of then more criticism but the criticism is really just a plea to be criticism is really just a plea to be criticism is really just a plea to be loved and get your partner to show you loved and get your partner to show you loved and get your partner to show you they care and then the man tends to feel they care and then the man tends to feel they care and then the man tends to feel like he can't do anything right this like he can't do anything right this like he can't do anything right this isn't even productive if I say anything isn't even productive if I say anything isn't even productive if I say anything I'm just going to make it worse and they I'm just going to make it worse and they I'm just going to make it worse and they don't have any real you haven't given don't have any real you haven't given don't have any real you haven't given them a specific need a solution them a specific need a solution them a specific need a solution something they can do to shine for you something they can do to shine for you something they can do to shine for you so they turn away and where's the uh

so they turn away and where's the uh so they turn away and where's the uh contempt all right so contempt is contempt all right so contempt is contempt all right so contempt is criticism on steroids this is what John criticism on steroids this is what John criticism on steroids this is what John gottman calls sulfuric acid for love gottman calls sulfuric acid for love gottman calls sulfuric acid for love nothing will erode a relationship nothing will erode a relationship nothing will erode a relationship quicker than contempt contempt is when quicker than contempt contempt is when quicker than contempt contempt is when you are looking at your partner from a you are looking at your partner from a you are looking at your partner from a superior position so you are eye rolling superior position so you are eye rolling superior position so you are eye rolling you are name calling you are name calling you are name calling um there's a mockery mocking even um there's a mockery mocking even um there's a mockery mocking even physical mockery imitating them physical mockery imitating them physical mockery imitating them imitating their voice contempt is meant imitating their voice contempt is meant imitating their voice contempt is meant to just take the legs out from your to just take the legs out from your to just take the legs out from your partner make them feel pathetic partner make them feel pathetic partner make them feel pathetic ridiculous ridiculous ridiculous um and it can be abusive but um and it can be abusive but um and it can be abusive but um most people have engaged in contempt um most people have engaged in contempt um most people have engaged in contempt at some point in their relationship at some point in their relationship at some point in their relationship lower level would be sort of the eye lower level would be sort of the eye lower level would be sort of the eye rolling but that is the biggest rolling but that is the biggest rolling but that is the biggest predictor of a split if you allow predictor of a split if you allow predictor of a split if you allow yourself to think yeah that mockery or yourself to think yeah that mockery or yourself to think yeah that mockery or contempt just a little bit contempt just a little bit contempt just a little bit it's like this weird slippery slope sure it's like this weird slippery slope sure it's like this weird slippery slope sure is and the opposite is true is and the opposite is true is and the opposite is true where I just look at a person think wow where I just look at a person think wow where I just look at a person think wow isn't that the most like wonderful isn't that the most like wonderful isn't that the most like wonderful creature I've ever seen in my life like creature I've ever seen in my life like creature I've ever seen in my life like just think that and you notice the just think that and you notice the just think that and you notice the little details about who they are and so little details about who they are and so little details about who they are and so I just observe them the way you observe I just observe them the way you observe I just observe them the way you observe like a weird like peacock at a zoo or like a weird like peacock at a zoo or like a weird like peacock at a zoo or something like that attention is something like that attention is something like that attention is powerful isn't it yeah and it changes it powerful isn't it yeah and it changes it powerful isn't it yeah and it changes it change you start to notice beautiful change you start to notice beautiful change you start to notice beautiful things and then let things and then let things and then let uh the things that annoy you yes like uh the things that annoy you yes like uh the things that annoy you yes like just you're exactly right you're just you're exactly right you're just you're exactly right you're touching on some really important things touching on some really important things touching on some really important things so in relationships we actually know so in relationships we actually know so in relationships we actually know that wearing rose-colored glasses is

that wearing rose-colored glasses is that wearing rose-colored glasses is important it's healthy we need it and important it's healthy we need it and important it's healthy we need it and it's a choice you're baking right so it's a choice you're baking right so it's a choice you're baking right so there is a saying that uh getting there is a saying that uh getting there is a saying that uh getting married is just choosing one person's married is just choosing one person's married is just choosing one person's faults over another and the reality is faults over another and the reality is faults over another and the reality is that we may become infatuated with that we may become infatuated with that we may become infatuated with somebody else as human beings love is an somebody else as human beings love is an somebody else as human beings love is an emotion attraction is emotion an emotion emotion attraction is emotion an emotion emotion attraction is emotion an emotion and as you go through life even if and as you go through life even if and as you go through life even if you're in a committed relationship you you're in a committed relationship you you're in a committed relationship you might see Beauty in another and that might see Beauty in another and that might see Beauty in another and that person who is novel might seem person who is novel might seem person who is novel might seem attractive to you but if you can attractive to you but if you can attractive to you but if you can remember that they too have a set of remember that they too have a set of remember that they too have a set of problems that you would be marrying it problems that you would be marrying it problems that you would be marrying it really helps you to really helps you to really helps you to see the beauty in your partner again and see the beauty in your partner again and see the beauty in your partner again and recognize all of their incredible recognize all of their incredible recognize all of their incredible strengths and all the ways we meld with strengths and all the ways we meld with strengths and all the ways we meld with the person and become our own family the person and become our own family the person and become our own family almost become I mean our lives almost become I mean our lives almost become I mean our lives intertwine and we grow those oak trees intertwine and we grow those oak trees intertwine and we grow those oak trees so she by the way this is a line I read so she by the way this is a line I read so she by the way this is a line I read somewhere that uh when you're wearing somewhere that uh when you're wearing somewhere that uh when you're wearing rose-colored glasses all the Red Flags rose-colored glasses all the Red Flags rose-colored glasses all the Red Flags looks just like Flags looks just like Flags looks just like Flags I think it's a good it's a good line uh I think it's a good it's a good line uh I think it's a good it's a good line uh so you so you think that humans are so you so you think that humans are so you so you think that humans are fundamentally all of us have fundamentally all of us have fundamentally all of us have fundamentally flawed or have flaws fundamentally flawed or have flaws fundamentally flawed or have flaws they're unique flaws and they're they're unique flaws and they're they're unique flaws and they're basically relationships is just the way basically relationships is just the way basically relationships is just the way to um to um to um they figure out how the two can fit they figure out how the two can fit they figure out how the two can fit together right and we're different so no together right and we're different so no together right and we're different so no matter what we're going to have matter what we're going to have matter what we're going to have differences we are raised differently differences we are raised differently differences we are raised differently than our partner we have different than our partner we have different than our partner we have different stories different experiences that

stories different experiences that stories different experiences that shaped our value systems especially when shaped our value systems especially when shaped our value systems especially when it comes to the big ones like parenting it comes to the big ones like parenting it comes to the big ones like parenting love money love money love money um these principles that are based in um these principles that are based in um these principles that are based in our history our history our history we're going to have differences so are we're going to have differences so are we're going to have differences so are is this a set of differences you can is this a set of differences you can is this a set of differences you can accept from somebody and work with do accept from somebody and work with do accept from somebody and work with do the benefits and their strengths the benefits and their strengths the benefits and their strengths um do they make it worth it or is it are um do they make it worth it or is it are um do they make it worth it or is it are they deal breaker differences uh tricky they deal breaker differences uh tricky they deal breaker differences uh tricky question but uh in the in the couples question but uh in the in the couples question but uh in the in the couples you've worked with is there you've worked with is there you've worked with is there like the feminine and the masculine is like the feminine and the masculine is like the feminine and the masculine is there different dynamics that come into there different dynamics that come into there different dynamics that come into play like dominant submissive is there play like dominant submissive is there play like dominant submissive is there is it like a dance where it just changes is it like a dance where it just changes is it like a dance where it just changes from minute to minute is there is there from minute to minute is there is there from minute to minute is there is there dynamics that you observe that both dynamics that you observe that both dynamics that you observe that both limit and enable limit and enable limit and enable uh successful relationships yes so there uh successful relationships yes so there uh successful relationships yes so there are if we're talking about masculine are if we're talking about masculine are if we're talking about masculine feminine feminine feminine then now also art we could get into are then now also art we could get into are then now also art we could get into are we talking about actual gender we talking about actual gender we talking about actual gender identified gender or are we just talking identified gender or are we just talking identified gender or are we just talking about these traits because like I said about these traits because like I said about these traits because like I said ice Stonewall which is typically in ice Stonewall which is typically in ice Stonewall which is typically in couples something that is more couples something that is more couples something that is more associated with straight men associated with straight men associated with straight men um um um but that's my style of coping when I get but that's my style of coping when I get but that's my style of coping when I get overwhelmed uh that is not tied to any overwhelmed uh that is not tied to any overwhelmed uh that is not tied to any sort of success or non-success of a sort of success or non-success of a sort of success or non-success of a relationship but what we do know is that relationship but what we do know is that relationship but what we do know is that gay couples so lesbians and gay men tend gay couples so lesbians and gay men tend gay couples so lesbians and gay men tend to be gentler with one another when they to be gentler with one another when they to be gentler with one another when they are having conflict discussions I so are having conflict discussions I so are having conflict discussions I so that's actually been identified in the

that's actually been identified in the that's actually been identified in the research and it's something I've research and it's something I've research and it's something I've witnessed and it's just fascinating so witnessed and it's just fascinating so witnessed and it's just fascinating so with my Straight couples I'll be going with my Straight couples I'll be going with my Straight couples I'll be going through one of these if we're processing through one of these if we're processing through one of these if we're processing a conflict that occurred I'll be going a conflict that occurred I'll be going a conflict that occurred I'll be going through the sheet and it's very very through the sheet and it's very very through the sheet and it's very very structured because you don't want structured because you don't want structured because you don't want couples doing more damage when they're couples doing more damage when they're couples doing more damage when they're there with you you want them practicing there with you you want them practicing there with you you want them practicing skills that protect them from criticism skills that protect them from criticism skills that protect them from criticism that protect them from contempt that protect them from contempt that protect them from contempt and when I'm working with a straight and when I'm working with a straight and when I'm working with a straight couple I am like a referee or sometimes couple I am like a referee or sometimes couple I am like a referee or sometimes I'll relate it to being like a ski coach I'll relate it to being like a ski coach I'll relate it to being like a ski coach and keeping people on a bunny Hill and and keeping people on a bunny Hill and and keeping people on a bunny Hill and you tell them you let them make like two you tell them you let them make like two you tell them you let them make like two turns and then you stop them and you turns and then you stop them and you turns and then you stop them and you meet up again because you don't want meet up again because you don't want meet up again because you don't want them to Veer off with straight couples them to Veer off with straight couples them to Veer off with straight couples you are doing very short turns before you are doing very short turns before you are doing very short turns before you need to kind of intervene and you need to kind of intervene and you need to kind of intervene and rescaffold rescaffold rescaffold I had a lesbian couple recently and they I had a lesbian couple recently and they I had a lesbian couple recently and they were so lovely with each other they were so lovely with each other they were so lovely with each other they skipped like seven steps to the advanced skipped like seven steps to the advanced skipped like seven steps to the advanced final portion where they were already final portion where they were already final portion where they were already coming up with Solutions and suggesting coming up with Solutions and suggesting coming up with Solutions and suggesting things that they might be able to do things that they might be able to do things that they might be able to do differently next time to make it better differently next time to make it better differently next time to make it better for their partner they were asking each for their partner they were asking each for their partner they were asking each other questions about how their partner other questions about how their partner other questions about how their partner felt with no agenda no attempt to sort felt with no agenda no attempt to sort felt with no agenda no attempt to sort of be like well do you think you're of be like well do you think you're of be like well do you think you're feeling that way because which straight feeling that way because which straight feeling that way because which straight couples do all the time you just see couples do all the time you just see couples do all the time you just see this humility and openness it's lovely this humility and openness it's lovely this humility and openness it's lovely yeah it's lovely but I wonder if uh yeah it's lovely but I wonder if uh yeah it's lovely but I wonder if uh maybe watching too many Hollywood films maybe watching too many Hollywood films maybe watching too many Hollywood films is some of the drama some of the tension is some of the drama some of the tension is some of the drama some of the tension is required for a passionate lifelong is required for a passionate lifelong is required for a passionate lifelong romance no it's not and that's great

romance no it's not and that's great romance no it's not and that's great news news news so we actually know yes that The Closer so we actually know yes that The Closer so we actually know yes that The Closer You Feel to your partner so if I mean You Feel to your partner so if I mean You Feel to your partner so if I mean you've talked a lot about beauty and you've talked a lot about beauty and you've talked a lot about beauty and you can ignite that beauty that interest you can ignite that beauty that interest you can ignite that beauty that interest right so when you're falling in love right so when you're falling in love right so when you're falling in love it's usually that a person is sort of a it's usually that a person is sort of a it's usually that a person is sort of a mystery to you and you're uncovering mystery to you and you're uncovering mystery to you and you're uncovering these layers that you find really these layers that you find really these layers that you find really appealing appealing appealing there are continual layers that you can there are continual layers that you can there are continual layers that you can uncover with your partner over time I uncover with your partner over time I uncover with your partner over time I don't think we realize that I think we don't think we realize that I think we don't think we realize that I think we get complacent and we think we've had get complacent and we think we've had get complacent and we think we've had every conversation imaginable what what every conversation imaginable what what every conversation imaginable what what else are they going to do to surprise me else are they going to do to surprise me else are they going to do to surprise me but we don't know the questions to be but we don't know the questions to be but we don't know the questions to be asking asking asking one of my favorite questions one of my favorite questions one of my favorite questions um um um I like turning these conversations kind I like turning these conversations kind I like turning these conversations kind of into a quiz because I get bored of into a quiz because I get bored of into a quiz because I get bored easily so you rather than just asking an easily so you rather than just asking an easily so you rather than just asking an open-ended question open-ended question open-ended question um there's a way you can do this with um there's a way you can do this with um there's a way you can do this with your partner where it's sort of like the your partner where it's sort of like the your partner where it's sort of like the dating game like what is my as of yet dating game like what is my as of yet dating game like what is my as of yet fondest but unrealized life dream and fondest but unrealized life dream and fondest but unrealized life dream and see if your partner knows you might not see if your partner knows you might not see if your partner knows you might not even know they might know you better even know they might know you better even know they might know you better than you know yourself that in and of than you know yourself that in and of than you know yourself that in and of itself is a beautiful reminder itself is a beautiful reminder itself is a beautiful reminder of the relationship and how special it of the relationship and how special it of the relationship and how special it is but then also is but then also is but then also um um um when they say it or when you realize or when they say it or when you realize or when they say it or when you realize or have to think critically like what is my have to think critically like what is my have to think critically like what is my husband's as of yet unrealized but husband's as of yet unrealized but husband's as of yet unrealized but fondest life dream and then you can talk fondest life dream and then you can talk fondest life dream and then you can talk about it about it about it you just I don't know you just kind of

you just I don't know you just kind of you just I don't know you just kind of transcend into this new area and you transcend into this new area and you transcend into this new area and you feel tight again you feel like you feel feel tight again you feel like you feel feel tight again you feel like you feel close well you really close well you really close well you really talk to each other like I I've recorded talk to each other like I I've recorded talk to each other like I I've recorded and without and without and without intending to publish uh podcasts like intending to publish uh podcasts like intending to publish uh podcasts like this with microphones with with friends this with microphones with with friends this with microphones with with friends with people close to me because it's with people close to me because it's with people close to me because it's literally that you get to ask questions literally that you get to ask questions literally that you get to ask questions like as if it's an interview right and like as if it's an interview right and like as if it's an interview right and we don't do that exactly it the way we don't do that exactly it the way we don't do that exactly it the way you're talking with me yeah sit down you're talking with me yeah sit down you're talking with me yeah sit down with your partner have that conversation with your partner have that conversation with your partner have that conversation like years later right show interest like years later right show interest like years later right show interest actually be curious see see what they actually be curious see see what they actually be curious see see what they surprise you with and actually when you surprise you with and actually when you surprise you with and actually when you learn is you don't know the answers to learn is you don't know the answers to learn is you don't know the answers to most these questions 100 most these questions 100 most these questions 100 exactly like like what what's your exactly like like what what's your exactly like like what what's your favorite movie from the 80s you might favorite movie from the 80s you might favorite movie from the 80s you might not know the answer to that it's like not know the answer to that it's like not know the answer to that it's like those first date questions or whatever those first date questions or whatever those first date questions or whatever or what's your favorite movie this year or what's your favorite movie this year or what's your favorite movie this year and why and why yeah it's fascinating it and why and why yeah it's fascinating it and why and why yeah it's fascinating it is it's hard to do that because I think is it's hard to do that because I think is it's hard to do that because I think that you'll probably be offended at that you'll probably be offended at that you'll probably be offended at first how little the other person knows first how little the other person knows first how little the other person knows so I think you have to work through that so I think you have to work through that so I think you have to work through that you know I actually find that there's you know I actually find that there's you know I actually find that there's this rekindling because partners are this rekindling because partners are this rekindling because partners are shocked that their partner does know so shocked that their partner does know so shocked that their partner does know so much about them especially if they've much about them especially if they've much about them especially if they've been feeling dissatisfied or been feeling dissatisfied or been feeling dissatisfied or disconnected it's a reminder of all the disconnected it's a reminder of all the disconnected it's a reminder of all the good that's still there good that's still there good that's still there what uh I know we said some of those what uh I know we said some of those what uh I know we said some of those things but what's on the opposite side things but what's on the opposite side things but what's on the opposite side what's the key to a successful what's the key to a successful what's the key to a successful relationship what's like what are the relationship what's like what are the relationship what's like what are the things you see things you see things you see time and time again that do you

time and time again that do you time and time again that do you designate that they're in a good path designate that they're in a good path designate that they're in a good path yeah there's a real Attunement honestly yeah there's a real Attunement honestly yeah there's a real Attunement honestly just it's just it's just it's um sort of an us against the world um sort of an us against the world um sort of an us against the world feeling nobody neither partner is going feeling nobody neither partner is going feeling nobody neither partner is going to talk shit on them the other uh to talk shit on them the other uh to talk shit on them the other uh there's a loyalty they handle each other there's a loyalty they handle each other there's a loyalty they handle each other in the relationship with care in the relationship with care in the relationship with care you can tell that they've worked some you can tell that they've worked some you can tell that they've worked some things I to me things I to me things I to me it usually indicates that these are some it usually indicates that these are some it usually indicates that these are some people who figured they've had to work people who figured they've had to work people who figured they've had to work some things out they know that this is some things out they know that this is some things out they know that this is delicate they know delicate they know delicate they know um you know that you're on thin ice you um you know that you're on thin ice you um you know that you're on thin ice you take a wrong step and you can be back in take a wrong step and you can be back in take a wrong step and you can be back in a tough place in your relationship or a tough place in your relationship or a tough place in your relationship or you treat it with care and it can be you treat it with care and it can be you treat it with care and it can be amazing amazing amazing so they're careful with one another they so they're careful with one another they so they're careful with one another they give each other compliments they are give each other compliments they are give each other compliments they are considerate so you'll see considerate so you'll see considerate so you'll see um you know he'll bring the car around um you know he'll bring the car around um you know he'll bring the car around for her because it's raining or for her because it's raining or for her because it's raining or um um um she'll bring him home some takeout you she'll bring him home some takeout you she'll bring him home some takeout you know she'll order for him to at the know she'll order for him to at the know she'll order for him to at the restaurant there's just they keep each restaurant there's just they keep each restaurant there's just they keep each other in each other's minds but that us other in each other's minds but that us other in each other's minds but that us against the world thing against the world thing against the world thing that definitely is there like 100 you've that definitely is there like 100 you've that definitely is there like 100 you've seen that right yeah you've seen it and seen that right yeah you've seen it and seen that right yeah you've seen it and you've seen it like um I like it when you've seen it like um I like it when you've seen it like um I like it when couples have been together for a long couples have been together for a long couples have been together for a long time and when one is talking the other time and when one is talking the other time and when one is talking the other one looks at them if you don't do that one looks at them if you don't do that one looks at them if you don't do that that's not a bad sound but it's a good that's not a bad sound but it's a good that's not a bad sound but it's a good sign when you do that yes because uh and sign when you do that yes because uh and sign when you do that yes because uh and I think it's actually a really good I think it's actually a really good I think it's actually a really good um exercise to do because I because I um exercise to do because I because I um exercise to do because I because I enjoy when I see in others so it's it's enjoy when I see in others so it's it's enjoy when I see in others so it's it's a

a a it's a way to show that you don't take it's a way to show that you don't take it's a way to show that you don't take him for granted and then you still find him for granted and then you still find him for granted and then you still find them like this mysterious wonderful them like this mysterious wonderful them like this mysterious wonderful creature to observe like I think too creature to observe like I think too creature to observe like I think too often we have that with our parents we often we have that with our parents we often we have that with our parents we have that with um people close to us you have that with um people close to us you have that with um people close to us you think yeah I've heard what they're about think yeah I've heard what they're about think yeah I've heard what they're about to say I know I know you can complete to say I know I know you can complete to say I know I know you can complete that sentence take them for granted and that sentence take them for granted and that sentence take them for granted and then if you if you just look at them and then if you if you just look at them and then if you if you just look at them and say wow this is the most brilliant say wow this is the most brilliant say wow this is the most brilliant person person person I've ever seen in my life most I can't I've ever seen in my life most I can't I've ever seen in my life most I can't you know you just appreciate every war you know you just appreciate every war you know you just appreciate every war that comes out of them and look at them that comes out of them and look at them that comes out of them and look at them in that way you actually begin to in that way you actually begin to in that way you actually begin to believe it yeah and you actually begin believe it yeah and you actually begin believe it yeah and you actually begin to see the beauty of what they're saying to see the beauty of what they're saying to see the beauty of what they're saying you are exactly right it's a you are exactly right it's a you are exactly right it's a self-fulfilling prophecy and caring yeah self-fulfilling prophecy and caring yeah self-fulfilling prophecy and caring yeah yeah it's very caring so that's I mean yeah it's very caring so that's I mean yeah it's very caring so that's I mean that's I think the beauty of what the that's I think the beauty of what the that's I think the beauty of what the gottman research showed us taught us gottman research showed us taught us gottman research showed us taught us provided us is that we can do these provided us is that we can do these provided us is that we can do these things that become cyclic and just keep things that become cyclic and just keep things that become cyclic and just keep growing this relationship making it growing this relationship making it growing this relationship making it stronger more powerful more loving you stronger more powerful more loving you stronger more powerful more loving you would never want to cut it down well we would never want to cut it down well we would never want to cut it down well we you were talking about the sheet for you were talking about the sheet for you were talking about the sheet for conflict processing what are we talking conflict processing what are we talking conflict processing what are we talking about so like a couple will come and say about so like a couple will come and say about so like a couple will come and say like there was this conflict and you put like there was this conflict and you put like there was this conflict and you put on the table and then what does it mean on the table and then what does it mean on the table and then what does it mean to process it so in that gottman method to process it so in that gottman method to process it so in that gottman method of therapy there are all these different of therapy there are all these different of therapy there are all these different I mean hundreds of different I mean hundreds of different I mean hundreds of different interventions and based on what the interventions and based on what the interventions and based on what the issue is in that session you can decide issue is in that session you can decide issue is in that session you can decide the most appropriate intervention and so the most appropriate intervention and so the most appropriate intervention and so this is a specific intervention for if

this is a specific intervention for if this is a specific intervention for if it is a conflict that occurred and there it is a conflict that occurred and there it is a conflict that occurred and there are different types of conflicts so this are different types of conflicts so this are different types of conflicts so this would be more like an incident it's not would be more like an incident it's not would be more like an incident it's not a Perpetual recurring problem a Perpetual recurring problem a Perpetual recurring problem um which has actually a different um which has actually a different um which has actually a different intervention where you kind of look at intervention where you kind of look at intervention where you kind of look at the underlying belief systems values and the underlying belief systems values and the underlying belief systems values and there's the goal is not to solve that there's the goal is not to solve that there's the goal is not to solve that problem the goal in that situation is to problem the goal in that situation is to problem the goal in that situation is to actually just get a better understanding actually just get a better understanding actually just get a better understanding of each other and your positions and of each other and your positions and of each other and your positions and just you stop seeing your partner as the just you stop seeing your partner as the just you stop seeing your partner as the adverse area and you start seeing them adverse area and you start seeing them adverse area and you start seeing them as a person who makes sense as a person who makes sense as a person who makes sense but if there's been a specific event a but if there's been a specific event a but if there's been a specific event a specific fight that's just sort of specific fight that's just sort of specific fight that's just sort of situational situational situational but it's left Bad Blood things were said but it's left Bad Blood things were said but it's left Bad Blood things were said or you didn't feel understood this or you didn't feel understood this or you didn't feel understood this intervention I was talking about is one intervention I was talking about is one intervention I was talking about is one that you would go through a series of that you would go through a series of that you would go through a series of steps where first you identify the steps where first you identify the steps where first you identify the emotions that you were feeling emotions that you were feeling emotions that you were feeling then you describe play by play your then you describe play by play your then you describe play by play your movie your perspective if your partner movie your perspective if your partner movie your perspective if your partner we're looking through your eyes this is we're looking through your eyes this is we're looking through your eyes this is what they heard saw thought then they what they heard saw thought then they what they heard saw thought then they saw this then they heard this so you're saw this then they heard this so you're saw this then they heard this so you're not saying yeah then you came in were not saying yeah then you came in were not saying yeah then you came in were yelling and acting crazy you're saying yelling and acting crazy you're saying yelling and acting crazy you're saying so then I saw you come in so then I saw you come in so then I saw you come in I heard you say and I thought to myself I heard you say and I thought to myself I heard you say and I thought to myself well great now everything's ruined right well great now everything's ruined right well great now everything's ruined right so you're showing them your movie then so you're showing them your movie then so you're showing them your movie then they have to summarize the movie for you they have to summarize the movie for you they have to summarize the movie for you and then vice versa and then vice versa and then vice versa and then there's this um Step where each

and then there's this um Step where each and then there's this um Step where each person validates some part that they can person validates some part that they can person validates some part that they can understand like based on what you saw understand like based on what you saw understand like based on what you saw heard I can't actually understand how heard I can't actually understand how heard I can't actually understand how you felt one of those feelings that you you felt one of those feelings that you you felt one of those feelings that you said then my favorite part is you rewind said then my favorite part is you rewind said then my favorite part is you rewind sort of the movie sort of the movie sort of the movie from that day back through into from that day back through into from that day back through into childhood and you land on a time a childhood and you land on a time a childhood and you land on a time a memory when you felt a similar set of memory when you felt a similar set of memory when you felt a similar set of feelings feelings feelings and this is like the most beautiful part and this is like the most beautiful part and this is like the most beautiful part ever because let's say the feeling was I ever because let's say the feeling was I ever because let's say the feeling was I felt misunderstood I felt felt misunderstood I felt felt misunderstood I felt um misjudged uncared about unloved like um misjudged uncared about unloved like um misjudged uncared about unloved like you didn't even like me and I'll say you didn't even like me and I'll say you didn't even like me and I'll say when did you feel that way you know land when did you feel that way you know land when did you feel that way you know land on a time and they're like my whole on a time and they're like my whole on a time and they're like my whole childhood you know my parents were my childhood you know my parents were my childhood you know my parents were my mom was always accusing me of doing mom was always accusing me of doing mom was always accusing me of doing things I wasn't doing and it would set things I wasn't doing and it would set things I wasn't doing and it would set me up and my dad would come home he'd me up and my dad would come home he'd me up and my dad would come home he'd hear about it he would just believe her hear about it he would just believe her hear about it he would just believe her and then you have like a partner and then you have like a partner and then you have like a partner climbing up on the couch like give their climbing up on the couch like give their climbing up on the couch like give their partner a hug while they're sharing the partner a hug while they're sharing the partner a hug while they're sharing the story it's beautiful and it changes the story it's beautiful and it changes the story it's beautiful and it changes the way you interact in future disagreements way you interact in future disagreements way you interact in future disagreements so you have those moments yeah you can't so you have those moments yeah you can't so you have those moments yeah you can't unlearn now you know this about your unlearn now you know this about your unlearn now you know this about your partner you know what they're sensitive partner you know what they're sensitive partner you know what they're sensitive to to to yeah and again you kind of see the the yeah and again you kind of see the the yeah and again you kind of see the the Beauty and the flaws then right Beauty and the flaws then right Beauty and the flaws then right it all makes sense yeah it all kind of it all makes sense yeah it all kind of it all makes sense yeah it all kind of makes sense yeah so you maybe were in makes sense yeah so you maybe were in makes sense yeah so you maybe were in this dumpster dive in your head of how this dumpster dive in your head of how this dumpster dive in your head of how your partner sucks and all the things your partner sucks and all the things your partner sucks and all the things that are wrong with them and it's so that are wrong with them and it's so that are wrong with them and it's so hopeless and then you get this light hopeless and then you get this light hopeless and then you get this light shining through and you realize oh my shining through and you realize oh my shining through and you realize oh my god of course they would be sensitive to god of course they would be sensitive to god of course they would be sensitive to that and suddenly it's not about all the that and suddenly it's not about all the that and suddenly it's not about all the ways your partner is wrong and proving

ways your partner is wrong and proving ways your partner is wrong and proving that they're wrong it's just how can I that they're wrong it's just how can I that they're wrong it's just how can I in the future make sure they do not feel in the future make sure they do not feel in the future make sure they do not feel this again I would never want this this again I would never want this this again I would never want this person I love to misunderstand me and person I love to misunderstand me and person I love to misunderstand me and feel so unloved what are you uh the feel so unloved what are you uh the feel so unloved what are you uh the early days of that what do you think early days of that what do you think early days of that what do you think about the whole dating about the whole dating about the whole dating modern dating process how do you find a modern dating process how do you find a modern dating process how do you find a partner partner partner that you can um that you can um that you can um stay with for the rest of your life so stay with for the rest of your life so stay with for the rest of your life so we are absolutely doing it wrong and um we are absolutely doing it wrong and um we are absolutely doing it wrong and um but there is a way you can do it and I but there is a way you can do it and I but there is a way you can do it and I am such a fan of the psychologist Thai am such a fan of the psychologist Thai am such a fan of the psychologist Thai tashiro I adore him he is brilliant he's tashiro I adore him he is brilliant he's tashiro I adore him he is brilliant he's lovely he's also very humble lovely he's also very humble lovely he's also very humble just a wonderful salt of the earth guy just a wonderful salt of the earth guy just a wonderful salt of the earth guy I'm gonna tell you a very true story I'm gonna tell you a very true story I'm gonna tell you a very true story here okay let's go I was in a bad here okay let's go I was in a bad here okay let's go I was in a bad relationship and I was relationship and I was relationship and I was um at a psychology conference with my um at a psychology conference with my um at a psychology conference with my partner at the time partner at the time partner at the time um we were both at this conference and um we were both at this conference and um we were both at this conference and we were sitting in a lecture hall uh we were sitting in a lecture hall uh we were sitting in a lecture hall uh there for Tai tashiro to do his talk there for Tai tashiro to do his talk there for Tai tashiro to do his talk that day on his phenomenal research on that day on his phenomenal research on that day on his phenomenal research on relationship satisfaction and dating relationship satisfaction and dating relationship satisfaction and dating um and I was sitting next to him and um and I was sitting next to him and um and I was sitting next to him and we'd been you know it was just always we'd been you know it was just always we'd been you know it was just always unpleasant on trips there were always unpleasant on trips there were always unpleasant on trips there were always fights we're sitting there and Thai fights we're sitting there and Thai fights we're sitting there and Thai tashiro starts talking about his tashiro starts talking about his tashiro starts talking about his research and how he found that most research and how he found that most research and how he found that most people are you know signing this people are you know signing this people are you know signing this agreement getting married and doing it agreement getting married and doing it agreement getting married and doing it based on the love endorphins and really based on the love endorphins and really based on the love endorphins and really only about 35 percent of anybody who's only about 35 percent of anybody who's only about 35 percent of anybody who's married is actually happy married is actually happy married is actually happy um and he said so then

um and he said so then um and he said so then you know and exactly but here's what I you know and exactly but here's what I you know and exactly but here's what I love about Tai tashiro is he didn't stop love about Tai tashiro is he didn't stop love about Tai tashiro is he didn't stop there he wanted to know what those there he wanted to know what those there he wanted to know what those people who were happy people who were happy people who were happy um had in common um had in common um had in common and then same thing with the people who and then same thing with the people who and then same thing with the people who were unhappy he found a couple were unhappy he found a couple were unhappy he found a couple fascinating patterns fascinating patterns fascinating patterns so the couples who were happy so the couples who were happy so the couples who were happy tended to rate their Partners higher in tended to rate their Partners higher in tended to rate their Partners higher in three different traits and I love three different traits and I love three different traits and I love talking about this because if you are talking about this because if you are talking about this because if you are somebody who can follow instructions you somebody who can follow instructions you somebody who can follow instructions you can find this I mean very easily those can find this I mean very easily those can find this I mean very easily those three traits tend to be three traits tend to be three traits tend to be conscientiousness conscientiousness conscientiousness okay and I love the word okay and I love the word okay and I love the word conscientiousness because it's not just conscientiousness because it's not just conscientiousness because it's not just kindness kindness is a good way to think kindness kindness is a good way to think kindness kindness is a good way to think of it but of it but of it but you can be kind and kind of be a you can be kind and kind of be a you can be kind and kind of be a pushover and that's not attractive pushover and that's not attractive pushover and that's not attractive conscientiousness is smart attentive conscientiousness is smart attentive conscientiousness is smart attentive it's somebody who reads into a text it's somebody who reads into a text it's somebody who reads into a text message and thinks wow she was making message and thinks wow she was making message and thinks wow she was making herself very vulnerable there herself very vulnerable there herself very vulnerable there that's conscientiousness I like how you that's conscientiousness I like how you that's conscientiousness I like how you just do an accomplishment it's true it's just do an accomplishment it's true it's just do an accomplishment it's true it's a certain intelligence awareness and a certain intelligence awareness and a certain intelligence awareness and Attunement Attunement Attunement and then on top of that and then on top of that and then on top of that conscientiousness is motivated so you conscientiousness is motivated so you conscientiousness is motivated so you can't be on your ass all day and be can't be on your ass all day and be can't be on your ass all day and be conscientious because then you can't conscientious because then you can't conscientious because then you can't meet the needs that you anticipate about meet the needs that you anticipate about meet the needs that you anticipate about the person so conscientious is that guy the person so conscientious is that guy the person so conscientious is that guy who drives the car around in the who drives the car around in the who drives the car around in the rainstorm so his wife's hair doesn't get rainstorm so his wife's hair doesn't get rainstorm so his wife's hair doesn't get met it's my husband who checks my alarm met it's my husband who checks my alarm met it's my husband who checks my alarm for me every morning because he knows for me every morning because he knows for me every morning because he knows I'm terrible at time management and he

I'm terrible at time management and he I'm terrible at time management and he makes sure that I set it a reasonable makes sure that I set it a reasonable makes sure that I set it a reasonable amount of time before my first meeting amount of time before my first meeting amount of time before my first meeting and not let 20 minutes I think I need and not let 20 minutes I think I need and not let 20 minutes I think I need and then he'll come wake me up with a and then he'll come wake me up with a and then he'll come wake me up with a cup of coffee that is Ultimate cup of coffee that is Ultimate cup of coffee that is Ultimate conscientiousness conscientiousness conscientiousness and it is true I mean I will tell you as and it is true I mean I will tell you as and it is true I mean I will tell you as somebody who's with a conscientious somebody who's with a conscientious somebody who's with a conscientious partner Your Love increases over time as partner Your Love increases over time as partner Your Love increases over time as you continue to feel grateful and you continue to feel grateful and you continue to feel grateful and admiring of that person admiring of that person admiring of that person the second one the second one the second one you want somebody who is low in a Big you want somebody who is low in a Big you want somebody who is low in a Big Five personality trait called Five personality trait called Five personality trait called neuroticism neuroticism neuroticism um you want somebody emotionally stable um you want somebody emotionally stable um you want somebody emotionally stable in a way now this doesn't mean you can't in a way now this doesn't mean you can't in a way now this doesn't mean you can't have somebody who doesn't get the blues have somebody who doesn't get the blues have somebody who doesn't get the blues or struggle with mental health issues or struggle with mental health issues or struggle with mental health issues trust me Ty is with somebody who you trust me Ty is with somebody who you trust me Ty is with somebody who you know I get I'm all over the place but know I get I'm all over the place but know I get I'm all over the place but you want somebody who kind of owns their you want somebody who kind of owns their you want somebody who kind of owns their shit and isn't going to just shit and isn't going to just shit and isn't going to just be emotionally unstable all over you be emotionally unstable all over you be emotionally unstable all over you know you want somebody who is generally know you want somebody who is generally know you want somebody who is generally happy and has some life satisfaction happy and has some life satisfaction happy and has some life satisfaction um having a partner who has serious not um having a partner who has serious not um having a partner who has serious not mental health issues but unmitigated mental health issues but unmitigated mental health issues but unmitigated emotional distress and instability is emotional distress and instability is emotional distress and instability is really hard on the partner and it's really hard on the partner and it's really hard on the partner and it's really hard on other family members really hard on other family members really hard on other family members including children if you have children including children if you have children including children if you have children so it's just a predictor of Happiness so so it's just a predictor of Happiness so so it's just a predictor of Happiness so there's a certain threshold of chaos there's a certain threshold of chaos there's a certain threshold of chaos that if you exceed it it's going to be that if you exceed it it's going to be that if you exceed it it's going to be destructive to a long-term relationship destructive to a long-term relationship destructive to a long-term relationship a perfect description chaos a perfect description chaos a perfect description chaos not the mystery chaos you love as your

not the mystery chaos you love as your not the mystery chaos you love as your with your little Pro poet brain yeah I'm with your little Pro poet brain yeah I'm with your little Pro poet brain yeah I'm talking more like just somebody who talking more like just somebody who talking more like just somebody who there's just no peace there's no peace there's just no peace there's no peace there's just no peace there's no peace there's a problem with everything there's a problem with everything there's a problem with everything everything becomes more difficult going everything becomes more difficult going everything becomes more difficult going to a party is a chore a you don't know to a party is a chore a you don't know to a party is a chore a you don't know if they're gonna have a meltdown at the if they're gonna have a meltdown at the if they're gonna have a meltdown at the party or how many complaints about your party or how many complaints about your party or how many complaints about your friends or friends or friends or um everything is a problem so you want um everything is a problem so you want um everything is a problem so you want somebody who has just some resiliency I somebody who has just some resiliency I somebody who has just some resiliency I think is a good term for it some think is a good term for it some think is a good term for it some flexibility some spice is okay but not flexibility some spice is okay but not flexibility some spice is okay but not too much like right flexibility too much like right flexibility too much like right flexibility resiliency easy going yeah Okay the resiliency easy going yeah Okay the resiliency easy going yeah Okay the third is third is third is um really interesting I think so he um really interesting I think so he um really interesting I think so he found that found that found that having a partner with sort of moderate having a partner with sort of moderate having a partner with sort of moderate adventurousness not high adventurousness adventurousness not high adventurousness adventurousness not high adventurousness actually leads to greater greater actually leads to greater greater actually leads to greater greater satisfaction and the reason for that is satisfaction and the reason for that is satisfaction and the reason for that is high adventurousness equals novelty high adventurousness equals novelty high adventurousness equals novelty seeking shiny new things and so if seeking shiny new things and so if seeking shiny new things and so if you're in a monogamous relationship if you're in a monogamous relationship if you're in a monogamous relationship if that is what's important to you it's that is what's important to you it's that is what's important to you it's going to be very hard for a partner who going to be very hard for a partner who going to be very hard for a partner who is novelty seeking to be faithful is novelty seeking to be faithful is novelty seeking to be faithful um so that will cause a lot of pain but um so that will cause a lot of pain but um so that will cause a lot of pain but also also also um novelty seeking people tend to always um novelty seeking people tend to always um novelty seeking people tend to always have new projects new interesting things have new projects new interesting things have new projects new interesting things and so their attention is drawn away and so their attention is drawn away and so their attention is drawn away from the relationship and so you can from the relationship and so you can from the relationship and so you can just feel pretty neglected or just feel pretty neglected or just feel pretty neglected or unimportant unimportant unimportant by a little bit but you want a little by a little bit but you want a little by a little bit but you want a little bit of adventurousness so you want your bit of adventurousness so you want your bit of adventurousness so you want your person to be uh sort of self-motivated

person to be uh sort of self-motivated person to be uh sort of self-motivated uh individuated have their own interests uh individuated have their own interests uh individuated have their own interests not completely dependent on you but also not completely dependent on you but also not completely dependent on you but also I mean low adventurousness is not a bad I mean low adventurousness is not a bad I mean low adventurousness is not a bad thing ultimately what you're getting thing ultimately what you're getting thing ultimately what you're getting with low to moderate adventurousness is with low to moderate adventurousness is with low to moderate adventurousness is that rock that feeling of stability that that rock that feeling of stability that that rock that feeling of stability that home and I made some references earlier home and I made some references earlier home and I made some references earlier like when you're 70 and you turn to your like when you're 70 and you turn to your like when you're 70 and you turn to your partner do you want them to be hot or partner do you want them to be hot or partner do you want them to be hot or you know for instance my dad has you know for instance my dad has you know for instance my dad has dementia right now and my husband turned dementia right now and my husband turned dementia right now and my husband turned to me on the plane we were all coming to me on the plane we were all coming to me on the plane we were all coming back from a trip and where we really saw back from a trip and where we really saw back from a trip and where we really saw how severe it's getting how severe it's getting how severe it's getting and he just turned to me he knew how and he just turned to me he knew how and he just turned to me he knew how much pain I was in even though I might much pain I was in even though I might much pain I was in even though I might wasn't showing it and he said I want you wasn't showing it and he said I want you wasn't showing it and he said I want you to know that if it comes to a point to know that if it comes to a point to know that if it comes to a point where we need to take care of your dad where we need to take care of your dad where we need to take care of your dad he needs to live with us you don't even he needs to live with us you don't even he needs to live with us you don't even need to ask it is I am 100 on board and need to ask it is I am 100 on board and need to ask it is I am 100 on board and will help and uh those are the things will help and uh those are the things will help and uh those are the things that matter that home feeling and that matter that home feeling and that matter that home feeling and technically that's a trait that's technically that's a trait that's technically that's a trait that's usually that's sort of a usually that's sort of a usually that's sort of a my husband caring so much about family my husband caring so much about family my husband caring so much about family and home and taking care of things that and home and taking care of things that and home and taking care of things that matter those are things that tend to be matter those are things that tend to be matter those are things that tend to be associated with that low to moderate associated with that low to moderate associated with that low to moderate adventurousness somebody who really adventurousness somebody who really adventurousness somebody who really cares about simple things and family I cares about simple things and family I cares about simple things and family I wonder if those things those those three wonder if those things those those three wonder if those things those those three things that something you can work on things that something you can work on things that something you can work on you know Consciousness you can probably you know Consciousness you can probably you know Consciousness you can probably you can you can you can proactively observe yourself proactively observe yourself proactively observe yourself and you know do it more regularly right and you know do it more regularly right and you know do it more regularly right neuroticism might be the hardest one neuroticism might be the hardest one neuroticism might be the hardest one probably I think so well I mean I probably I think so well I mean I probably I think so well I mean I I was pretty neurotic in my early 20s I was pretty neurotic in my early 20s I was pretty neurotic in my early 20s and when you wake up to it maybe you if

and when you wake up to it maybe you if and when you wake up to it maybe you if you're self-aware about it maybe you'll you're self-aware about it maybe you'll you're self-aware about it maybe you'll be able to control it yeah I think be able to control it yeah I think be able to control it yeah I think self-awareness is key I think I think self-awareness is key I think I think self-awareness is key I think I think that's why I love therapy so much I that's why I love therapy so much I that's why I love therapy so much I think life is about growth and our think life is about growth and our think life is about growth and our potential for growth and to make our own potential for growth and to make our own potential for growth and to make our own lives better to make the lives of others lives better to make the lives of others lives better to make the lives of others better to serve others to heal all of us better to serve others to heal all of us better to serve others to heal all of us through this Collective healing and I through this Collective healing and I through this Collective healing and I think we're all capable of growth and think we're all capable of growth and think we're all capable of growth and the same with adventurousness you can the same with adventurousness you can the same with adventurousness you can I'm somebody that's pretty pretty low on I'm somebody that's pretty pretty low on I'm somebody that's pretty pretty low on adventure but I keep throwing myself out adventure but I keep throwing myself out adventure but I keep throwing myself out there just for the extra adventures and there just for the extra adventures and there just for the extra adventures and you can grow in that way yes and I am you can grow in that way yes and I am you can grow in that way yes and I am high in adventurousness and I was not high in adventurousness and I was not high in adventurousness and I was not really ready to settle down I was really ready to settle down I was really ready to settle down I was married earlier in my 20s but I would married earlier in my 20s but I would married earlier in my 20s but I would say that I am much more prepared to be say that I am much more prepared to be say that I am much more prepared to be in a committed long-term relationship in a committed long-term relationship in a committed long-term relationship now in my 40s than I was when I was now in my 40s than I was when I was now in my 40s than I was when I was younger but in that same way for me I younger but in that same way for me I younger but in that same way for me I like to connect myself to high adventure like to connect myself to high adventure like to connect myself to high adventure people so that it like brings me brings people so that it like brings me brings people so that it like brings me brings me out it's like uh they're a horse and me out it's like uh they're a horse and me out it's like uh they're a horse and I'm get to ride them and that's the I'm get to ride them and that's the I'm get to ride them and that's the thing so high adventure people are thing so high adventure people are thing so high adventure people are attractive they're interesting exciting attractive they're interesting exciting attractive they're interesting exciting but it can be a world of heartbreak but it can be a world of heartbreak but it can be a world of heartbreak because you know you're only under that because you know you're only under that because you know you're only under that Spotlight for a few minutes and then Spotlight for a few minutes and then Spotlight for a few minutes and then they're on to the next shiny thing yeah they're on to the next shiny thing yeah they're on to the next shiny thing yeah but heartbreak is part of love but heartbreak is part of love but heartbreak is part of love but that might be the drug thing that but that might be the drug thing that but that might be the drug thing that you were talking about speaking of you were talking about speaking of you were talking about speaking of adventurousness what about sex it's adventurousness what about sex it's adventurousness what about sex it's important sex playing a successful important sex playing a successful important sex playing a successful relationship well it okay so I'm saying relationship well it okay so I'm saying relationship well it okay so I'm saying it's important but I want to qualify it's important but I want to qualify it's important but I want to qualify that everybody has different levels of that everybody has different levels of that everybody has different levels of sex that are satisfying to them sex can sex that are satisfying to them sex can sex that are satisfying to them sex can definitely Bond you to your partner definitely Bond you to your partner definitely Bond you to your partner orgasms are amazing they de-stress us

orgasms are amazing they de-stress us orgasms are amazing they de-stress us they're healthy they I mean you can have they're healthy they I mean you can have they're healthy they I mean you can have an orgasm and have a lower level of an orgasm and have a lower level of an orgasm and have a lower level of stress for 48 hours I think that's stress for 48 hours I think that's stress for 48 hours I think that's pretty incredible pretty incredible pretty incredible um um um if you have I mean just that kind of if you have I mean just that kind of if you have I mean just that kind of physical contact with your partner even physical contact with your partner even physical contact with your partner even a 20 second hug with your partner has a 20 second hug with your partner has a 20 second hug with your partner has similar benefits to an orgasm you're similar benefits to an orgasm you're similar benefits to an orgasm you're going to have a lower stress level going to have a lower stress level going to have a lower stress level you're going to feel immediately close you're going to feel immediately close you're going to feel immediately close to your partner you're going to get a to your partner you're going to get a to your partner you're going to get a rush of oxytocin which is going to make rush of oxytocin which is going to make rush of oxytocin which is going to make you feel happier more grounded you feel happier more grounded you feel happier more grounded throughout the day so that's a 20 second throughout the day so that's a 20 second throughout the day so that's a 20 second hug you extrapolate that to sex and hug you extrapolate that to sex and hug you extrapolate that to sex and things are going to be great things are going to be great things are going to be great so it's just physiological but I wonder so it's just physiological but I wonder so it's just physiological but I wonder there's probably metrics about how often there's probably metrics about how often there's probably metrics about how often you have sex how that correlates to you have sex how that correlates to you have sex how that correlates to successful relationships and so on well successful relationships and so on well successful relationships and so on well there are but it really has more to do there are but it really has more to do there are but it really has more to do it's sort of like remember I was talking it's sort of like remember I was talking it's sort of like remember I was talking about processing conflict and what about processing conflict and what about processing conflict and what matters is matters is matters is do people feel like it's been resolved do people feel like it's been resolved do people feel like it's been resolved do they feel like there's been a repair do they feel like there's been a repair do they feel like there's been a repair not necessarily how they go about doing not necessarily how they go about doing not necessarily how they go about doing it same with sex do does each partner it same with sex do does each partner it same with sex do does each partner feel sexually satisfied feel sexually satisfied feel sexually satisfied um so that could be once a month for one um so that could be once a month for one um so that could be once a month for one couple it could be five times a week for couple it could be five times a week for couple it could be five times a week for another couple it could be never for another couple it could be never for another couple it could be never for other couples truly other couples truly other couples truly um I mean so sex has a ton of benefits um I mean so sex has a ton of benefits um I mean so sex has a ton of benefits but its absence isn't necessarily but its absence isn't necessarily but its absence isn't necessarily detrimental I guess would be the detrimental I guess would be the detrimental I guess would be the qualifier depending on who you are and I qualifier depending on who you are and I qualifier depending on who you are and I know couples they use sex to as part of know couples they use sex to as part of know couples they use sex to as part of the conflict resolution process it's the conflict resolution process it's the conflict resolution process it's huge

not just both all that's true not just both all that's true um what do you think about infidelity um what do you think about infidelity um what do you think about infidelity um you know what's the cause of um you know what's the cause of um you know what's the cause of infidelity why do men and women cheat infidelity why do men and women cheat infidelity why do men and women cheat it's different for everybody but I I it's different for everybody but I I it's different for everybody but I I mean even earlier I was saying with mean even earlier I was saying with mean even earlier I was saying with adventurousness like if monogamy is adventurousness like if monogamy is adventurousness like if monogamy is something you're doing something you're doing something you're doing uh uh uh I I I've seen in my own practice I've I I I've seen in my own practice I've I I I've seen in my own practice I've seen the entire range of couples who are seen the entire range of couples who are seen the entire range of couples who are open about having sexual relationships open about having sexual relationships open about having sexual relationships with other people with other people with other people um and fine with it couples who want to um and fine with it couples who want to um and fine with it couples who want to be fine with it but find out they're not be fine with it but find out they're not be fine with it but find out they're not um uh couples who aren't just couples um uh couples who aren't just couples um uh couples who aren't just couples couples with multiple people you know couples with multiple people you know couples with multiple people you know multiple romantic relationships multiple romantic relationships multiple romantic relationships um I've had couples where Affairs are um I've had couples where Affairs are um I've had couples where Affairs are are tolerated and not talked about are tolerated and not talked about are tolerated and not talked about um they're not enjoyed but they are not um they're not enjoyed but they are not um they're not enjoyed but they are not the type of betrayal that will destroy the type of betrayal that will destroy the type of betrayal that will destroy the relationship sort of a understanding the relationship sort of a understanding the relationship sort of a understanding and keep it out of my face and then also and keep it out of my face and then also and keep it out of my face and then also we won't talk about it so in the fair we won't talk about it so in the fair we won't talk about it so in the fair that happened without getting permission that happened without getting permission that happened without getting permission first and as long as you don't talk first and as long as you don't talk first and as long as you don't talk about it it's not going to do a damage about it it's not going to do a damage about it it's not going to do a damage to the relationship right but we can't to the relationship right but we can't to the relationship right but we can't even talk about it like that right so even talk about it like that right so even talk about it like that right so nobody's going to admit that the fair is nobody's going to admit that the fair is nobody's going to admit that the fair is happening happening happening um there can't be any evidence of it um there can't be any evidence of it um there can't be any evidence of it it's sort of a just look the other way it's sort of a just look the other way it's sort of a just look the other way type of a situation but uh the partner type of a situation but uh the partner type of a situation but uh the partner who is not having the affair right they who is not having the affair right they who is not having the affair right they typically know typically know typically know um they certainly know that their um they certainly know that their um they certainly know that their partner is capable of that partner is capable of that partner is capable of that um they just kind of know but they don't

um they just kind of know but they don't um they just kind of know but they don't want it in their face it would become a want it in their face it would become a want it in their face it would become a problem if it was in their face problem if it was in their face problem if it was in their face um um um as long as certain needs are met and as long as certain needs are met and as long as certain needs are met and everything else is okay at home it's everything else is okay at home it's everything else is okay at home it's just one of those things where don't ask just one of those things where don't ask just one of those things where don't ask don't tell but that that's an don't tell but that that's an don't tell but that that's an interesting point because I've I had a interesting point because I've I had a interesting point because I've I had a bunch of arguments with people I tend to bunch of arguments with people I tend to bunch of arguments with people I tend to hang out with especially in the tech hang out with especially in the tech hang out with especially in the tech sector uh people who really value like sector uh people who really value like sector uh people who really value like honesty and radical honesty and I keep honesty and radical honesty and I keep honesty and radical honesty and I keep arguing with people about this because arguing with people about this because arguing with people about this because to me to me to me it's not that simple okay that that's an it's not that simple okay that that's an it's not that simple okay that that's an example right there uh that Honesty can example right there uh that Honesty can example right there uh that Honesty can be really destructive like honesty is be really destructive like honesty is be really destructive like honesty is also a really complicated thing to get also a really complicated thing to get also a really complicated thing to get to the bottom of because what is really to the bottom of because what is really to the bottom of because what is really honest yes and you know like how do I honest yes and you know like how do I honest yes and you know like how do I look in this dress like look in this dress like look in this dress like there's a million ways yeah a lot it can there's a million ways yeah a lot it can there's a million ways yeah a lot it can be accessible in my mind if I'm in a bad be accessible in my mind if I'm in a bad be accessible in my mind if I'm in a bad place or my partner and I am like if place or my partner and I am like if place or my partner and I am like if Taya and I haven't been connected lately Taya and I haven't been connected lately Taya and I haven't been connected lately my honesty of what I actually think my honesty of what I actually think my honesty of what I actually think about him would be horrifically damaging about him would be horrifically damaging about him would be horrifically damaging and completely unfounded also and but and completely unfounded also and but and completely unfounded also and but and it can change on a dime but that's and it can change on a dime but that's and it can change on a dime but that's also not actual honesty to the big also not actual honesty to the big also not actual honesty to the big picture of how you feel about him I have picture of how you feel about him I have picture of how you feel about him I have interacted with a few folks who talk interacted with a few folks who talk interacted with a few folks who talk about their previous sexual partners for about their previous sexual partners for about their previous sexual partners for example on the numbers of sexual example on the numbers of sexual example on the numbers of sexual partners they've had and they feel like partners they've had and they feel like partners they've had and they feel like that's that's that's that that kind of honesty is actually that that kind of honesty is actually that that kind of honesty is actually empowering enriching to the relationship empowering enriching to the relationship empowering enriching to the relationship because all they've experienced sexual because all they've experienced sexual because all they've experienced sexual experiences you've had in the past make

experiences you've had in the past make experiences you've had in the past make you a better sexual partner better you a better sexual partner better you a better sexual partner better partner in in the present and to me from partner in in the present and to me from partner in in the present and to me from the culture I've come from that's like the culture I've come from that's like the culture I've come from that's like anti-romantic yep yep like I you kind of anti-romantic yep yep like I you kind of anti-romantic yep yep like I you kind of throw the past kind of away right you throw the past kind of away right you throw the past kind of away right you don't really talk about it it's kind of don't really talk about it it's kind of don't really talk about it it's kind of there in this amorphous shape but it's there in this amorphous shape but it's there in this amorphous shape but it's almost as if you've met together for the almost as if you've met together for the almost as if you've met together for the first time and this is a beautiful new first time and this is a beautiful new first time and this is a beautiful new thing like your creatures that have thing like your creatures that have thing like your creatures that have woken up from a long Slumber right woken up from a long Slumber right woken up from a long Slumber right you're starting Anew it's starting in you're starting Anew it's starting in you're starting Anew it's starting in new right so and then you want some new right so and then you want some new right so and then you want some mystery there right I think the mystery mystery there right I think the mystery mystery there right I think the mystery and like you have to figure that out and like you have to figure that out and like you have to figure that out about each other so I'm not exactly sure about each other so I'm not exactly sure about each other so I'm not exactly sure that honesty is always for everyone and that honesty is always for everyone and that honesty is always for everyone and then also is honesty harmful or helpful then also is honesty harmful or helpful then also is honesty harmful or helpful at certain points too yeah I.E so you're at certain points too yeah I.E so you're at certain points too yeah I.E so you're talking about sort of like disclosing talking about sort of like disclosing talking about sort of like disclosing prior sexual history I thought you were prior sexual history I thought you were prior sexual history I thought you were going to go to so if you've had an going to go to so if you've had an going to go to so if you've had an affair do you hold could you keep that affair do you hold could you keep that affair do you hold could you keep that under your head oh yeah that's a really under your head oh yeah that's a really under your head oh yeah that's a really tough question or are you obligated to tough question or are you obligated to tough question or are you obligated to disclose it it's a really it is a very disclose it it's a really it is a very disclose it it's a really it is a very tough question very tough well what do tough question very tough well what do tough question very tough well what do you think is the I have my own personal you think is the I have my own personal you think is the I have my own personal beliefs I also then like I have my beliefs I also then like I have my beliefs I also then like I have my therapeutic beliefs I think frankly therapeutic beliefs I think frankly therapeutic beliefs I think frankly and this is just me as a human being not and this is just me as a human being not and this is just me as a human being not Shannon the psychologist Shannon the psychologist Shannon the psychologist um I believe that if you have fucked up um I believe that if you have fucked up um I believe that if you have fucked up and and I again I'm coming from a and and I again I'm coming from a and and I again I'm coming from a framework right now of monogamy framework right now of monogamy framework right now of monogamy um if you are committed to somebody you um if you are committed to somebody you um if you are committed to somebody you love and you have fucked up you don't

love and you have fucked up you don't love and you have fucked up you don't get to shed your guilt onto them get to shed your guilt onto them get to shed your guilt onto them you need to carry that burden it's not you need to carry that burden it's not you need to carry that burden it's not necessarily I think it's simplistic and necessarily I think it's simplistic and necessarily I think it's simplistic and unsophisticated to be like but then unsophisticated to be like but then unsophisticated to be like but then you're being dishonest I think it's you're being dishonest I think it's you're being dishonest I think it's actually selfish to unload it on actually selfish to unload it on actually selfish to unload it on somebody else and give them the trauma somebody else and give them the trauma somebody else and give them the trauma of imagining what we do know about of imagining what we do know about of imagining what we do know about infidelity is that it can create infidelity is that it can create infidelity is that it can create an actual post-traumatic stress like an actual post-traumatic stress like an actual post-traumatic stress like experience for the Betrayed partner experience for the Betrayed partner experience for the Betrayed partner where they are having intrusive thoughts where they are having intrusive thoughts where they are having intrusive thoughts about it about it about it um those are unwanted thoughts and it's um those are unwanted thoughts and it's um those are unwanted thoughts and it's uncontrolled it comes in it multiple uncontrolled it comes in it multiple uncontrolled it comes in it multiple times a day they'll have depressed mood times a day they'll have depressed mood times a day they'll have depressed mood they'll have nightmares about it their they'll have nightmares about it their they'll have nightmares about it their entire sense of security safety entire sense of security safety entire sense of security safety self-esteem gets shattered because of self-esteem gets shattered because of self-esteem gets shattered because of your actions your actions your actions I think it's uh kind of yeah moralistic I think it's uh kind of yeah moralistic I think it's uh kind of yeah moralistic and naive to think well they deserve to and naive to think well they deserve to and naive to think well they deserve to know the truth if you actually know the know the truth if you actually know the know the truth if you actually know the harm that that sort of betrayal does harm that that sort of betrayal does harm that that sort of betrayal does um um um especially if you truly mean to stop it especially if you truly mean to stop it especially if you truly mean to stop it right so if it is if it was a one and right so if it is if it was a one and right so if it is if it was a one and done or if it happened and you've done or if it happened and you've done or if it happened and you've stopped it and you do not intend to do stopped it and you do not intend to do stopped it and you do not intend to do it again frankly I think you live with it again frankly I think you live with it again frankly I think you live with that burden you live with that that burden you live with that that burden you live with that discomfort thank you for saying that discomfort thank you for saying that discomfort thank you for saying that because I I totally agree but it's it's because I I totally agree but it's it's because I I totally agree but it's it's like logically like logically like logically it's doesn't quite make sense to give it's doesn't quite make sense to give it's doesn't quite make sense to give that advice but psychologically makes that advice but psychologically makes that advice but psychologically makes complete sense because you really are complete sense because you really are complete sense because you really are destroying another person's mind uh

destroying another person's mind uh destroying another person's mind uh their faith in in love in relationships their faith in in love in relationships their faith in in love in relationships their their their trust everything and their their their trust everything and their their their trust everything and then you're imprisoning them to be stuck then you're imprisoning them to be stuck then you're imprisoning them to be stuck with you for months or years if you're with you for months or years if you're with you for months or years if you're trying to work through it through that trying to work through it through that trying to work through it through that torture so you should be carrying that torture so you should be carrying that torture so you should be carrying that burden and working through it I think burden and working through it I think burden and working through it I think why why do you say that that's your why why do you say that that's your why why do you say that that's your personal opinion University or personal opinion University or personal opinion University or therapeutic like what well I think therapeutic like what well I think therapeutic like what well I think everybody has different values right so everybody has different values right so everybody has different values right so I think that's a value-based decision I think that's a value-based decision I think that's a value-based decision because to me the hierarchy is kindness because to me the hierarchy is kindness because to me the hierarchy is kindness and do no like do no further harm yeah and do no like do no further harm yeah and do no like do no further harm yeah um over that's in that case over truth um over that's in that case over truth um over that's in that case over truth right right right um whereas other people you know my um whereas other people you know my um whereas other people you know my husband for instance he is like truth husband for instance he is like truth husband for instance he is like truth above all else you don't get to decide above all else you don't get to decide above all else you don't get to decide what I know or you know you don't get to what I know or you know you don't get to what I know or you know you don't get to decide whether or not I can handle that decide whether or not I can handle that decide whether or not I can handle that knowledge so he would even see my knowledge so he would even see my knowledge so he would even see my determination of you know that I should determination of you know that I should determination of you know that I should carry the burden sort of arrogant like carry the burden sort of arrogant like carry the burden sort of arrogant like well why don't you let your partner well why don't you let your partner well why don't you let your partner decide whether or not they you know why decide whether or not they you know why decide whether or not they you know why do you get to choose I don't know I I do you get to choose I don't know I I do you get to choose I don't know I I think there's value to both arguments I think there's value to both arguments I think there's value to both arguments I absolutely see this point is I absolutely see this point is I absolutely see this point is I absolutely see his point and his I think absolutely see his point and his I think absolutely see his point and his I think is like a very humble sort of option is like a very humble sort of option is like a very humble sort of option like like like you don't get to choose what's better you don't get to choose what's better you don't get to choose what's better you you just need to give them the you you just need to give them the you you just need to give them the information and they can choose but I information and they can choose but I information and they can choose but I think I don't know I think it's kinder think I don't know I think it's kinder think I don't know I think it's kinder to hold I think it's going to cause your to hold I think it's going to cause your to hold I think it's going to cause your conscience more discomfort to hold it conscience more discomfort to hold it conscience more discomfort to hold it and I think there's sort of a cleansing and I think there's sort of a cleansing and I think there's sort of a cleansing we do when we share that information I we do when we share that information I we do when we share that information I think in real life most people disclose

think in real life most people disclose think in real life most people disclose it because they can't stand the secret it because they can't stand the secret it because they can't stand the secret anymore themselves that to me is a anymore themselves that to me is a anymore themselves that to me is a selfish act I have a unemployment selfish act I have a unemployment selfish act I have a unemployment applications and so on and just with applications and so on and just with applications and so on and just with friends would ask people what do you friends would ask people what do you friends would ask people what do you care more about truth or loyalty just to care more about truth or loyalty just to care more about truth or loyalty just to get to see how they think about those get to see how they think about those get to see how they think about those different questions different questions different questions and uh yeah the and uh yeah the and uh yeah the I was surprised how much variance there I was surprised how much variance there I was surprised how much variance there is on that and also conceptually I bet is on that and also conceptually I bet is on that and also conceptually I bet I conceptually I don't think we actually I conceptually I don't think we actually I conceptually I don't think we actually know where we stand until we're faced know where we stand until we're faced know where we stand until we're faced with a situation like that yeah I think with a situation like that yeah I think with a situation like that yeah I think people a lot of people especially when people a lot of people especially when people a lot of people especially when they're younger say especially if they're younger say especially if they're younger say especially if they're kind of intellectual they'll say they're kind of intellectual they'll say they're kind of intellectual they'll say truth Above All Else truth Above All Else truth Above All Else a second all right you're exactly right a second all right you're exactly right a second all right you're exactly right all right until you get to hear a truth that truly until you get to hear a truth that truly breaks you truly hurts you or causes breaks you truly hurts you or causes breaks you truly hurts you or causes suffering to you and then you realize or suffering to you and then you realize or suffering to you and then you realize or a truth you give to somebody else will a truth you give to somebody else will a truth you give to somebody else will cause them suffering right and they get cause them suffering right and they get cause them suffering right and they get to see that suffering destroy their life to see that suffering destroy their life to see that suffering destroy their life and maybe your relationship and so on and maybe your relationship and so on and maybe your relationship and so on and then you're like oh yeah like should and then you're like oh yeah like should and then you're like oh yeah like should I sit my dad down right now and be like I sit my dad down right now and be like I sit my dad down right now and be like Dad your dementia like you have dementia Dad your dementia like you have dementia Dad your dementia like you have dementia again today I'm going to tell you Dad again today I'm going to tell you Dad again today I'm going to tell you Dad you're not making sense no we're good you're not making sense no we're good you're not making sense no we're good it's not going to be discussed we're it's not going to be discussed we're it's not going to be discussed we're going to make them comfortable and I going to make them comfortable and I going to make them comfortable and I mean yeah I think it truth can be a mean yeah I think it truth can be a mean yeah I think it truth can be a little bit of a platitude Sometimes some little bit of a platitude Sometimes some little bit of a platitude Sometimes some of those complexities are all the things of those complexities are all the things of those complexities are all the things involved in in the challenges of what involved in in the challenges of what involved in in the challenges of what makes a relationship work right uh what makes a relationship work right uh what makes a relationship work right uh what do you think about open relationships in do you think about open relationships in do you think about open relationships in general

general general my world view is such that I see the my world view is such that I see the my world view is such that I see the beauty and value in monogamous beauty and value in monogamous beauty and value in monogamous relationships just for me but I don't relationships just for me but I don't relationships just for me but I don't I'm also open to I'm also open to I'm also open to the possibility of what worked for other the possibility of what worked for other the possibility of what worked for other people have you done any kind of work people have you done any kind of work people have you done any kind of work with the people in open relationships as with the people in open relationships as with the people in open relationships as clients or research as clients oh yeah clients or research as clients oh yeah clients or research as clients oh yeah yeah yeah yeah is there some interesting differences in is there some interesting differences in is there some interesting differences in between uh open relationships and between uh open relationships and between uh open relationships and monogamous relationships you know I monogamous relationships you know I monogamous relationships you know I think that may have been actually what think that may have been actually what think that may have been actually what was behind my question about was behind my question about was behind my question about um the satisfaction with them being on um the satisfaction with them being on um the satisfaction with them being on the extremes my hypothesis essentially the extremes my hypothesis essentially the extremes my hypothesis essentially was is it because they if you are really was is it because they if you are really was is it because they if you are really all and you've worked out some of the all and you've worked out some of the all and you've worked out some of the Kinks I think I've seen Kinks I think I've seen Kinks I think I've seen um um um the couples who are trying it out like the couples who are trying it out like the couples who are trying it out like for the first time it tends to get a for the first time it tends to get a for the first time it tends to get a little Haywire there's some excitement little Haywire there's some excitement little Haywire there's some excitement in the beginning everybody's really in the beginning everybody's really in the beginning everybody's really excited about it excited about it excited about it um I think the philosophy makes sense to um I think the philosophy makes sense to um I think the philosophy makes sense to a lot of people uh the science of it a lot of people uh the science of it a lot of people uh the science of it makes sense to a lot of people and but makes sense to a lot of people and but makes sense to a lot of people and but we have been raised in a society that is we have been raised in a society that is we have been raised in a society that is pretty monogamous so there isn't a lot pretty monogamous so there isn't a lot pretty monogamous so there isn't a lot of scaffolding around it of scaffolding around it of scaffolding around it um and and there's a lot of inner um and and there's a lot of inner um and and there's a lot of inner conflict I think for people to go away conflict I think for people to go away conflict I think for people to go away from the values that they've been taught from the values that they've been taught from the values that they've been taught since they were kids since they were kids since they were kids um and so jealousy arises a lot and uh um and so jealousy arises a lot and uh um and so jealousy arises a lot and uh and also I it's very difficult to be I and also I it's very difficult to be I and also I it's very difficult to be I think as truthful and direct as you need think as truthful and direct as you need think as truthful and direct as you need to be which you're describing in these to be which you're describing in these to be which you're describing in these polyamorous situations where everybody polyamorous situations where everybody polyamorous situations where everybody is laid out on the table is laid out on the table is laid out on the table um so I think that's something that may

um so I think that's something that may um so I think that's something that may be practiced in my own work with clients be practiced in my own work with clients be practiced in my own work with clients I've just noticed that um the the I've just noticed that um the the I've just noticed that um the the Partners who are Partners who are Partners who are happier in these situations who I've happier in these situations who I've happier in these situations who I've worked with they are more experienced at worked with they are more experienced at worked with they are more experienced at it it it yeah they seem to have it down yeah they seem to have it down yeah they seem to have it down you testified in the Johnny Depp Amber you testified in the Johnny Depp Amber you testified in the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial uh based on your role as a Heard trial uh based on your role as a Heard trial uh based on your role as a clinical and forensic psychologist it clinical and forensic psychologist it clinical and forensic psychologist it was watched by I don't know how many was watched by I don't know how many was watched by I don't know how many people maybe tens maybe hundreds of people maybe tens maybe hundreds of people maybe tens maybe hundreds of millions of people what was that millions of people what was that millions of people what was that experience like thank God I didn't know experience like thank God I didn't know experience like thank God I didn't know that at the time that at the time that at the time um were you scared um were you scared um were you scared oh yeah given the size of the platform oh yeah given the size of the platform oh yeah given the size of the platform how many people are watching and not how many people are watching and not how many people are watching and not scared typically isn't the word when I scared typically isn't the word when I scared typically isn't the word when I testify I'm always testify I'm always testify I'm always um um um excited and a little trepidatious before excited and a little trepidatious before excited and a little trepidatious before I testify I testify I testify um because the stakes are so high for um because the stakes are so high for um because the stakes are so high for everybody's life in that room everybody's life in that room everybody's life in that room um this was different I I anxiety isn't um this was different I I anxiety isn't um this was different I I anxiety isn't usually my brand usually my brand usually my brand um and I just skipped anxiety that um and I just skipped anxiety that um and I just skipped anxiety that Maureen went straight to Terror and he Maureen went straight to Terror and he Maureen went straight to Terror and he was mad I was mad at the legal it was was mad I was mad at the legal it was was mad I was mad at the legal it was funny like I was having all these strong funny like I was having all these strong funny like I was having all these strong emotions I couldn't find my bobby pins I emotions I couldn't find my bobby pins I emotions I couldn't find my bobby pins I almost started crying because I couldn't almost started crying because I couldn't almost started crying because I couldn't find them uh I was pretty unhinged that find them uh I was pretty unhinged that find them uh I was pretty unhinged that morning and in a way that was really morning and in a way that was really morning and in a way that was really unfamiliar to me unfamiliar to me unfamiliar to me um and it was right when I cried because um and it was right when I cried because um and it was right when I cried because I couldn't find my bobby pins that I I couldn't find my bobby pins that I I couldn't find my bobby pins that I realized I needed to get a grip and that realized I needed to get a grip and that realized I needed to get a grip and that I was a professional and that my hair I was a professional and that my hair I was a professional and that my hair didn't matter even though it ended up didn't matter even though it ended up didn't matter even though it ended up mattering people noticed that it was

mattering people noticed that it was mattering people noticed that it was crazy crazy crazy um but I got a grip and I went in and I um but I got a grip and I went in and I um but I got a grip and I went in and I just did my job just did my job just did my job so the terror in the end helped you so the terror in the end helped you so the terror in the end helped you focus and do your job well I think it focus and do your job well I think it focus and do your job well I think it does and it's a little scary though does and it's a little scary though does and it's a little scary though because I know what fear does because I know what fear does because I know what fear does cognitively and there is a sweet spot cognitively and there is a sweet spot cognitively and there is a sweet spot where you want some stress and then you where you want some stress and then you where you want some stress and then you can be really acutely focused and can be really acutely focused and can be really acutely focused and attuned but then if you go over this attuned but then if you go over this attuned but then if you go over this threshold you get sort of that frontal threshold you get sort of that frontal threshold you get sort of that frontal lobe shutdown where you're not thinking lobe shutdown where you're not thinking lobe shutdown where you're not thinking clearly and everybody knows that clearly and everybody knows that clearly and everybody knows that experience from taking a really experience from taking a really experience from taking a really stressful test at some point like in stressful test at some point like in stressful test at some point like in high school and then they're going over high school and then they're going over high school and then they're going over the answers with the teacher in class the answers with the teacher in class the answers with the teacher in class later and they're like how did I miss later and they're like how did I miss later and they're like how did I miss that question I know that they you're that question I know that they you're that question I know that they you're just in a different state that's when just in a different state that's when just in a different state that's when you have too much stress I think this you have too much stress I think this you have too much stress I think this day I actually was bordering on too much day I actually was bordering on too much day I actually was bordering on too much stress if not clearly in that threshold stress if not clearly in that threshold stress if not clearly in that threshold but um but um but um once you're sitting there for a little once you're sitting there for a little once you're sitting there for a little bit and you're asked the questions you bit and you're asked the questions you bit and you're asked the questions you can kind of go into a routine of just can kind of go into a routine of just can kind of go into a routine of just wanting to talk about your work wanting to talk about your work wanting to talk about your work so what is the work the job of a so what is the work the job of a so what is the work the job of a forensic psychologist in that context forensic psychologist in that context forensic psychologist in that context in the depth herd trial I was in the depth herd trial I was in the depth herd trial I was um um um serving as an expert witness based on a serving as an expert witness based on a serving as an expert witness based on a psychological evaluation of one of the psychological evaluation of one of the psychological evaluation of one of the parties so forensic psychologists can parties so forensic psychologists can parties so forensic psychologists can serve the court or in legal matters in a serve the court or in legal matters in a serve the court or in legal matters in a number of ways they can act as a number of ways they can act as a number of ways they can act as a confidential consultant for an attorney confidential consultant for an attorney confidential consultant for an attorney on a case on a case on a case or they can even assist with jury

or they can even assist with jury or they can even assist with jury selection they might testify without selection they might testify without selection they might testify without doing an evaluation if they're just doing an evaluation if they're just doing an evaluation if they're just coming to testify about sort of a coming to testify about sort of a coming to testify about sort of a subject matter subject matter subject matter and then they wouldn't be answering and then they wouldn't be answering and then they wouldn't be answering specific questions to either the parties specific questions to either the parties specific questions to either the parties but just talking more hypothetically but just talking more hypothetically but just talking more hypothetically about an a field area in this case about an a field area in this case about an a field area in this case because I was ordered to conduct an because I was ordered to conduct an because I was ordered to conduct an evaluation evaluation evaluation I evaluated one of the parties and then I evaluated one of the parties and then I evaluated one of the parties and then you provide a report to the court with you provide a report to the court with you provide a report to the court with your findings and then you testify as to your findings and then you testify as to your findings and then you testify as to what your findings were but from my what your findings were but from my what your findings were but from my perspective just watching you seem to perspective just watching you seem to perspective just watching you seem to have held it together really well so have held it together really well so have held it together really well so what do you attribute that to so you what do you attribute that to so you what do you attribute that to so you said like it calmed down after you were said like it calmed down after you were said like it calmed down after you were able to ask the question so to me if I able to ask the question so to me if I able to ask the question so to me if I were just to put myself in your place it seems like the internet and the world it seems like the internet and the world would be very nitpicky about individual would be very nitpicky about individual would be very nitpicky about individual words you're speaking from a place words you're speaking from a place words you're speaking from a place of um a scientific rigor so you have to of um a scientific rigor so you have to of um a scientific rigor so you have to be very precise with the awarding be very precise with the awarding be very precise with the awarding precise I would feel like so much precise I would feel like so much precise I would feel like so much pressure about each single word I choose pressure about each single word I choose pressure about each single word I choose did you feel that pressure that you had did you feel that pressure that you had did you feel that pressure that you had to be extremely precise with the words to be extremely precise with the words to be extremely precise with the words always the pressure is so high going in always the pressure is so high going in always the pressure is so high going in to testifying I think that's where I to testifying I think that's where I to testifying I think that's where I feel the most pressure is preparing and feel the most pressure is preparing and feel the most pressure is preparing and literally the moment until I start literally the moment until I start literally the moment until I start having to answer and then I don't even having to answer and then I don't even having to answer and then I don't even have the luxury of thinking about myself have the luxury of thinking about myself have the luxury of thinking about myself because it is so important that that

because it is so important that that because it is so important that that answer be answer be answer be clarified and understandable to the clarified and understandable to the clarified and understandable to the court that that becomes my focus and court that that becomes my focus and court that that becomes my focus and that's the godsend is that I can stop that's the godsend is that I can stop that's the godsend is that I can stop thinking about how scary it all is thinking about how scary it all is thinking about how scary it all is because I need to pay attention to because I need to pay attention to because I need to pay attention to explaining something explaining something explaining something so I if it's okay I would love to talk so I if it's okay I would love to talk so I if it's okay I would love to talk to you about the the personality to you about the the personality to you about the the personality assessment test because I think it's assessment test because I think it's assessment test because I think it's actually super fascinating uh but actually super fascinating uh but actually super fascinating uh but personality assessment inventory or the personality assessment inventory or the personality assessment inventory or the mmpi too you're probably referring to mmpi too you're probably referring to mmpi too you're probably referring to the mmpi too which is one I talked a lot the mmpi too which is one I talked a lot the mmpi too which is one I talked a lot about mmpi too yeah so maybe can you about mmpi too yeah so maybe can you about mmpi too yeah so maybe can you explain the mmpi to seems fascinating it explain the mmpi to seems fascinating it explain the mmpi to seems fascinating it is it has like its output the results is it has like its output the results is it has like its output the results has some basic skills as code types and has some basic skills as code types and has some basic skills as code types and just reading through the different just reading through the different just reading through the different complex it's the thing of beauty because complex it's the thing of beauty because complex it's the thing of beauty because the human mind is really complicated the human mind is really complicated the human mind is really complicated even you know depression schizophrenia even you know depression schizophrenia even you know depression schizophrenia uh bipolar disorder like all of these uh bipolar disorder like all of these uh bipolar disorder like all of these things are really complicated there's things are really complicated there's things are really complicated there's like we many of them we don't understand like we many of them we don't understand like we many of them we don't understand well this seems to be a huge amount of well this seems to be a huge amount of well this seems to be a huge amount of variance and yet you have to be able to variance and yet you have to be able to variance and yet you have to be able to stitch together a bunch of stitch together a bunch of stitch together a bunch of characteristics that give you intuition characteristics that give you intuition characteristics that give you intuition about about about the unique aspects of each person you the unique aspects of each person you the unique aspects of each person you want to be able to have tests that get want to be able to have tests that get want to be able to have tests that get you closer to identifying The Peculiar you closer to identifying The Peculiar you closer to identifying The Peculiar flaws or uh beauties of a particular flaws or uh beauties of a particular flaws or uh beauties of a particular mind so this seems to do a good job just mind so this seems to do a good job just mind so this seems to do a good job just reading through the different reading through the different reading through the different descriptions of the code testify that descriptions of the code testify that descriptions of the code testify that was the best description I don't know

was the best description I don't know was the best description I don't know I'm being poetic I apologize beautiful I'm being poetic I apologize beautiful I'm being poetic I apologize beautiful description you have to be in part description you have to be in part description you have to be in part poetic about the human mind it's not poetic about the human mind it's not poetic about the human mind it's not it's not math it's it's psychology okay it's not math it's it's psychology okay it's not math it's it's psychology okay so what is the mmpi to like what what so what is the mmpi to like what what so what is the mmpi to like what what what are we talking about here like uh what are we talking about here like uh what are we talking about here like uh it's a questionnaire it's a questionnaire it's a questionnaire yes that's a great start so it it is a yes that's a great start so it it is a yes that's a great start so it it is a questionnaire uh yet 567 yes no questionnaire uh yet 567 yes no questionnaire uh yet 567 yes no questions questions questions I'm going to tell you what's most I'm going to tell you what's most I'm going to tell you what's most beautiful about this test so they used beautiful about this test so they used beautiful about this test so they used an empirical keying method to develop it an empirical keying method to develop it an empirical keying method to develop it what that means is that they didn't have what that means is that they didn't have what that means is that they didn't have a bunch of psychologists get together a bunch of psychologists get together a bunch of psychologists get together and say let's ask them and say let's ask them and say let's ask them um let's make sure that we identify um let's make sure that we identify um let's make sure that we identify people who have somatic complaints or people who have somatic complaints or people who have somatic complaints or physical complaints by asking them physical complaints by asking them physical complaints by asking them questions about like numbness in their questions about like numbness in their questions about like numbness in their hands nothing like that what they did hands nothing like that what they did hands nothing like that what they did instead was they threw you know like instead was they threw you know like instead was they threw you know like take a thousand questions at a group of take a thousand questions at a group of take a thousand questions at a group of people who they know at a certain mental people who they know at a certain mental people who they know at a certain mental illness and a group of people who didn't illness and a group of people who didn't illness and a group of people who didn't have that mental illness and then they have that mental illness and then they have that mental illness and then they looked for patterns in what the people looked for patterns in what the people looked for patterns in what the people with the mental illness with the mental illness with the mental illness endorsed as yes and no of those random endorsed as yes and no of those random endorsed as yes and no of those random questions so it would be for instance questions so it would be for instance questions so it would be for instance there's a bronze light fixture right there's a bronze light fixture right there's a bronze light fixture right there one of the questions out of the there one of the questions out of the there one of the questions out of the Thousand might be I like light fixtures Thousand might be I like light fixtures Thousand might be I like light fixtures that are bronze true or false and they that are bronze true or false and they that are bronze true or false and they looked for correlations in the way looked for correlations in the way looked for correlations in the way people would answer to these completely people would answer to these completely people would answer to these completely innocuous just boring questions so there innocuous just boring questions so there innocuous just boring questions so there was no real way that a test taker could

was no real way that a test taker could was no real way that a test taker could foresee the point of answering foresee the point of answering foresee the point of answering and so because they can't foresee it's and so because they can't foresee it's and so because they can't foresee it's very difficult to cheat to get to a very difficult to cheat to get to a very difficult to cheat to get to a conclusion very difficult and not only conclusion very difficult and not only conclusion very difficult and not only that but you can imagine using that that but you can imagine using that that but you can imagine using that approach you can then look for patterns approach you can then look for patterns approach you can then look for patterns for almost any type of for almost any type of for almost any type of response style for any type of response style for any type of response style for any type of Personality trait any type of mental Personality trait any type of mental Personality trait any type of mental illness you just get a comparison group illness you just get a comparison group illness you just get a comparison group and then a group who's using that and then a group who's using that and then a group who's using that specific strategy or has that specific specific strategy or has that specific specific strategy or has that specific mental illness or has that personality mental illness or has that personality mental illness or has that personality trait trait trait um and you just look for patterns um and you just look for patterns um and you just look for patterns and there's a scale output of different and there's a scale output of different and there's a scale output of different kinds kinds kinds so types yep so we've got you've got so types yep so we've got you've got so types yep so we've got you've got validity scales and those are just validity scales and those are just validity scales and those are just fascinating and often one of the most fascinating and often one of the most fascinating and often one of the most useful parts of this test in forensic useful parts of this test in forensic useful parts of this test in forensic contexts because they show you how a contexts because they show you how a contexts because they show you how a person is approaching the test how person is approaching the test how person is approaching the test how they're answering questions about they're answering questions about they're answering questions about themselves so for instance you can see themselves so for instance you can see themselves so for instance you can see if they are tired you can see if they're if they are tired you can see if they're if they are tired you can see if they're kind of respect responding randomly you kind of respect responding randomly you kind of respect responding randomly you can see if they are in an can see if they are in an can see if they are in an unsophisticated manner trying to make unsophisticated manner trying to make unsophisticated manner trying to make themselves look perfect but not very themselves look perfect but not very themselves look perfect but not very nuanced you can see if they may be nuanced you can see if they may be nuanced you can see if they may be deceiving themselves and truly believe deceiving themselves and truly believe deceiving themselves and truly believe that they are perfect whereas others that they are perfect whereas others that they are perfect whereas others don't see it that way you can see if don't see it that way you can see if don't see it that way you can see if they're exaggerating you can see if they're exaggerating you can see if they're exaggerating you can see if they're exaggerating because they're they're exaggerating because they're they're exaggerating because they're truly truly truly um it's a cry for help they are in

um it's a cry for help they are in um it's a cry for help they are in extreme distress but they feel as though extreme distress but they feel as though extreme distress but they feel as though they need to really punctuate it to get they need to really punctuate it to get they need to really punctuate it to get people to notice or you can see if people to notice or you can see if people to notice or you can see if they're exaggerating in a way that is they're exaggerating in a way that is they're exaggerating in a way that is um you know driven for a specific um you know driven for a specific um you know driven for a specific outcome or gain it's just fascinating outcome or gain it's just fascinating outcome or gain it's just fascinating and it's the most well-developed and it's the most well-developed and it's the most well-developed assessment we have for a person's assessment we have for a person's assessment we have for a person's approach to approach to approach to answering questions about themselves so answering questions about themselves so answering questions about themselves so it gives you the context of how honest it gives you the context of how honest it gives you the context of how honest they're being the state of the person is they're being the state of the person is they're being the state of the person is their answer to them yeah yeah their their answer to them yeah yeah their their answer to them yeah yeah their honesty their how forthcoming they're honesty their how forthcoming they're honesty their how forthcoming they're being and how accurate they're being and being and how accurate they're being and being and how accurate they're being and then the the result of the then the the result of the then the the result of the classification based on the test is are classification based on the test is are classification based on the test is are these code types right well so you have these code types right well so you have these code types right well so you have these clinical skills as well you have these clinical skills as well you have these clinical skills as well you have 10 clinical skills that look for 10 clinical skills that look for 10 clinical skills that look for different different different um kind of primary Clinical Pathology um kind of primary Clinical Pathology um kind of primary Clinical Pathology issues this test doesn't tell you issues this test doesn't tell you issues this test doesn't tell you anything good about yourself at best it anything good about yourself at best it anything good about yourself at best it just tells you that you're not just tells you that you're not just tells you that you're not responding in a way that is uh dishonest responding in a way that is uh dishonest responding in a way that is uh dishonest and that you are uh kind not hugely and that you are uh kind not hugely and that you are uh kind not hugely problematic but there's you know it's problematic but there's you know it's problematic but there's you know it's not looking for strength so you have not looking for strength so you have not looking for strength so you have these 10 clinical scales that look for these 10 clinical scales that look for these 10 clinical scales that look for variations above the mean of the variations above the mean of the variations above the mean of the population population population um in certain areas anywhere from you um in certain areas anywhere from you um in certain areas anywhere from you know depressive symptoms manic symptoms know depressive symptoms manic symptoms know depressive symptoms manic symptoms physical complaints anxiety nervousness physical complaints anxiety nervousness physical complaints anxiety nervousness aggression social engagement whole scope aggression social engagement whole scope aggression social engagement whole scope of human experience and then there are of human experience and then there are of human experience and then there are much more nuanced scales from those so much more nuanced scales from those so much more nuanced scales from those so little sub scales and then the real

little sub scales and then the real little sub scales and then the real power though of the mmpi2 is in as you power though of the mmpi2 is in as you power though of the mmpi2 is in as you said these code types and these code said these code types and these code said these code types and these code types are additional patterns that have types are additional patterns that have types are additional patterns that have been detected that really can be more been detected that really can be more been detected that really can be more defining of a personality so you look defining of a personality so you look defining of a personality so you look for Peaks there can be either two for Peaks there can be either two for Peaks there can be either two extreme Peaks or three typically that extreme Peaks or three typically that extreme Peaks or three typically that make a code type and those Peaks are make a code type and those Peaks are make a code type and those Peaks are higher scores on these personality higher scores on these personality higher scores on these personality traits and specific code types can give traits and specific code types can give traits and specific code types can give you a very nuanced picture of a person's you a very nuanced picture of a person's you a very nuanced picture of a person's General approach to life and their General approach to life and their General approach to life and their personal relationships just their personal relationships just their personal relationships just their personality so you can build on top of personality so you can build on top of personality so you can build on top of those code types and understanding yeah those code types and understanding yeah those code types and understanding yeah how that person is going to deal with how that person is going to deal with how that person is going to deal with different kinds of situations and then different kinds of situations and then different kinds of situations and then there's by the way a lot of code types there's by the way a lot of code types there's by the way a lot of code types there are a lot of questions pretty there are a lot of questions pretty there are a lot of questions pretty interesting it is interesting it is interesting it is I was I wanted to see which one I would I was I wanted to see which one I would I was I wanted to see which one I would I have given it to some people in my I have given it to some people in my I have given it to some people in my life it's just phenomenal how hard is it life it's just phenomenal how hard is it life it's just phenomenal how hard is it on your side of the table to give the on your side of the table to give the on your side of the table to give the test oh it's easy you just Proctor you test oh it's easy you just Proctor you test oh it's easy you just Proctor you just make sure that somebody there's no just make sure that somebody there's no just make sure that somebody there's no distraction that they're well rested distraction that they're well rested distraction that they're well rested they are sitting there and they can just they are sitting there and they can just they are sitting there and they can just take it in front of you so I guess the take it in front of you so I guess the take it in front of you so I guess the question is because the questions are question is because the questions are question is because the questions are well designed in that it's hard to mess well designed in that it's hard to mess well designed in that it's hard to mess with them you just give the it's very with them you just give the it's very with them you just give the it's very hard to beat it you just hand it to them hard to beat it you just hand it to them hard to beat it you just hand it to them and it's yes and no it's yes and no and it's yes and no it's yes and no and it's yes and no it's yes and no okay but I should also add to this that okay but I should also add to this that okay but I should also add to this that this test as much as I love it and um it this test as much as I love it and um it this test as much as I love it and um it is the most researched and widely used is the most researched and widely used is the most researched and widely used personality assessment in the world

personality assessment in the world personality assessment in the world um um um it is not in and of itself definitive so it is not in and of itself definitive so it is not in and of itself definitive so you use it like you already have sort of you use it like you already have sort of you use it like you already have sort of a hypothesis and you use this for a hypothesis and you use this for a hypothesis and you use this for clarification okay clarification okay clarification okay um and it has a ton of value for showing um and it has a ton of value for showing um and it has a ton of value for showing somebody's response or their approach somebody's response or their approach somebody's response or their approach um how forthcoming they're being but um how forthcoming they're being but um how forthcoming they're being but other than that you really need to other than that you really need to other than that you really need to consider it as a piece of the puzzle you consider it as a piece of the puzzle you consider it as a piece of the puzzle you had said stitched together earlier and had said stitched together earlier and had said stitched together earlier and that was just one of those points you that was just one of those points you that was just one of those points you made that was perfect for describing made that was perfect for describing made that was perfect for describing this this this there's probably no one perfect test there's probably no one perfect test there's probably no one perfect test right for personality no right for personality no right for personality no I wonder especially with advancements of I wonder especially with advancements of I wonder especially with advancements of um AI um AI um AI there could be more there could be more there could be more more and more sophisticated ways of more and more sophisticated ways of more and more sophisticated ways of measuring of collecting data about your measuring of collecting data about your measuring of collecting data about your behavior absolutely there could be and behavior absolutely there could be and behavior absolutely there could be and being able to measure some kind of more being able to measure some kind of more being able to measure some kind of more productive kind of productive kind of productive kind of especially not in a forensic context but especially not in a forensic context but especially not in a forensic context but more in uh trying to figure out like how more in uh trying to figure out like how more in uh trying to figure out like how to improve your lifestyle improve your to improve your lifestyle improve your to improve your lifestyle improve your relationships all that kind of stuff so relationships all that kind of stuff so relationships all that kind of stuff so the the results of the test with um the the results of the test with um the the results of the test with um would then be heard if you can speak to would then be heard if you can speak to would then be heard if you can speak to the public stuff he said that the results of misheard's he said that the results of misheard's evaluation supported two diagnoses evaluation supported two diagnoses evaluation supported two diagnoses borderline personality disorder and borderline personality disorder and borderline personality disorder and hysterionic personality disorder hysterionic personality disorder hysterionic personality disorder can you speak to each one of those what can you speak to each one of those what can you speak to each one of those what are they what are the basic are they what are the basic are they what are the basic characteristics of borderline characteristics of borderline characteristics of borderline personality disorder sure well so right

personality disorder sure well so right personality disorder sure well so right now are the DSM-5 which is sort of the now are the DSM-5 which is sort of the now are the DSM-5 which is sort of the Bible for mental disorders it's what we Bible for mental disorders it's what we Bible for mental disorders it's what we go to our diagnostic manual it go to our diagnostic manual it go to our diagnostic manual it classifies personality disorders classifies personality disorders classifies personality disorders according to clusters according to clusters according to clusters and cluster B is one that involves the and cluster B is one that involves the and cluster B is one that involves the emotionally erratic interpersonally emotionally erratic interpersonally emotionally erratic interpersonally erratic emotional disorders and those erratic emotional disorders and those erratic emotional disorders and those include histrionic personality disorder include histrionic personality disorder include histrionic personality disorder borderline personality disorder uh borderline personality disorder uh borderline personality disorder uh narcissistic personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder and anti-social personality disorder anti-social personality disorder anti-social personality disorder eventually there's been some research on eventually there's been some research on eventually there's been some research on this and a lot of support for us this and a lot of support for us this and a lot of support for us eventually moving into a more Spectrum eventually moving into a more Spectrum eventually moving into a more Spectrum type approach to considering personality type approach to considering personality type approach to considering personality disorders where you'd essentially be disorders where you'd essentially be disorders where you'd essentially be looking at dysfunction in different looking at dysfunction in different looking at dysfunction in different domains of somebody's functioning that domains of somebody's functioning that domains of somebody's functioning that has persisted over time and again the has persisted over time and again the has persisted over time and again the really important part is this it seems really important part is this it seems really important part is this it seems to be a stable trait part of their to be a stable trait part of their to be a stable trait part of their personality that person you know it's in personality that person you know it's in personality that person you know it's in their interpersonal relationships it's their interpersonal relationships it's their interpersonal relationships it's in how they handle their own life their in how they handle their own life their in how they handle their own life their own functioning their mood and it's not own functioning their mood and it's not own functioning their mood and it's not just situation based it seems to be all just situation based it seems to be all just situation based it seems to be all areas areas areas um I don't love um I don't love um I don't love the title histrionic personality the title histrionic personality the title histrionic personality disorder I think its history is um disorder I think its history is um disorder I think its history is um it's pretty controversial and there's it's pretty controversial and there's it's pretty controversial and there's some misogyny in it but that all being some misogyny in it but that all being some misogyny in it but that all being said as a servant to the court and said as a servant to the court and said as a servant to the court and somebody who is there to just provide somebody who is there to just provide somebody who is there to just provide the science as it exists today the science as it exists today the science as it exists today my job is to relay and in this specific

my job is to relay and in this specific my job is to relay and in this specific case I was ordered to provide my case I was ordered to provide my case I was ordered to provide my diagnostic Impressions diagnostic Impressions diagnostic Impressions um a diagnosis and I don't get to decide um a diagnosis and I don't get to decide um a diagnosis and I don't get to decide which diagnosis uh whether I like a which diagnosis uh whether I like a which diagnosis uh whether I like a certain diagnosis or not ultimately if certain diagnosis or not ultimately if certain diagnosis or not ultimately if the criteria are met that diagnosis is the criteria are met that diagnosis is the criteria are met that diagnosis is given so as we have it right now with given so as we have it right now with given so as we have it right now with the current personality disorder the current personality disorder the current personality disorder categories histrionic personality categories histrionic personality categories histrionic personality disorder is probably the most disorder is probably the most disorder is probably the most controversial some people believe that controversial some people believe that controversial some people believe that it is narcissistic personality disorder it is narcissistic personality disorder it is narcissistic personality disorder light so sort of a less obvious less light so sort of a less obvious less light so sort of a less obvious less malicious version of narcissistic malicious version of narcissistic malicious version of narcissistic personality disorder personality disorder personality disorder and I think that will probably get and I think that will probably get and I think that will probably get sussed out if we do move to a more sussed out if we do move to a more sussed out if we do move to a more Spectrum based approach because then you Spectrum based approach because then you Spectrum based approach because then you would be describing sort of a would be describing sort of a would be describing sort of a personality disorder and then you would personality disorder and then you would personality disorder and then you would add the traits to it so you know with add the traits to it so you know with add the traits to it so you know with issues and interpersonal functioning and issues and interpersonal functioning and issues and interpersonal functioning and and Etc so you could be a little bit and Etc so you could be a little bit and Etc so you could be a little bit more more more specific rather than have to just put specific rather than have to just put specific rather than have to just put somebody in a category so that's where somebody in a category so that's where somebody in a category so that's where things are moving you're saying that's things are moving you're saying that's things are moving you're saying that's where things are moving from a cluster's where things are moving from a cluster's where things are moving from a cluster's based view of NPD anti-social based view of NPD anti-social based view of NPD anti-social personality disorder to more of a personality disorder to more of a personality disorder to more of a spectrum with personality dysfunction spectrum with personality dysfunction spectrum with personality dysfunction then you you list the traits that are then you you list the traits that are then you you list the traits that are there and I think that'll be more there and I think that'll be more there and I think that'll be more accurate um especially there's so much accurate um especially there's so much accurate um especially there's so much overlap between these personality overlap between these personality overlap between these personality disorders right now especially cluster B disorders right now especially cluster B disorders right now especially cluster B it is not uncommon for people to have it is not uncommon for people to have it is not uncommon for people to have two or three personality disorders to two or three personality disorders to two or three personality disorders to meet criteria for two or three at the meet criteria for two or three at the meet criteria for two or three at the same time so speaking about borderline

same time so speaking about borderline same time so speaking about borderline personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder personality disorder personality disorder borderline personality disorder can best borderline personality disorder can best borderline personality disorder can best be thought of as a disorder of be thought of as a disorder of be thought of as a disorder of instability and impulsiveness emotional instability and impulsiveness emotional instability and impulsiveness emotional instability instability in a person's instability instability in a person's instability instability in a person's self-identity sense of self instability self-identity sense of self instability self-identity sense of self instability in a person's relationships and then in a person's relationships and then in a person's relationships and then underlying all of this is an intense underlying all of this is an intense underlying all of this is an intense fear of Abandonment histrionic fear of Abandonment histrionic fear of Abandonment histrionic personality just order personality just order personality just order is more of a disorder of emotionality is more of a disorder of emotionality is more of a disorder of emotionality Dramatics and attention seeking Dramatics and attention seeking Dramatics and attention seeking this you know histrionic disorder this you know histrionic disorder this you know histrionic disorder typically is known for The Dramatics and typically is known for The Dramatics and typically is known for The Dramatics and people who are observing or interacting people who are observing or interacting people who are observing or interacting with somebody with this disorder may with somebody with this disorder may with somebody with this disorder may even feel themselves almost kind of even feel themselves almost kind of even feel themselves almost kind of wanting to turn away there's a sense of wanting to turn away there's a sense of wanting to turn away there's a sense of play acting as the person is speaking or play acting as the person is speaking or play acting as the person is speaking or engaging with you engaging with you engaging with you um um um something just feels a little bit something just feels a little bit something just feels a little bit disingenuous disingenuous disingenuous and a lot of attention seeking similar and a lot of attention seeking similar and a lot of attention seeking similar to borderline personality disorder you to borderline personality disorder you to borderline personality disorder you might see with histrionic personality might see with histrionic personality might see with histrionic personality disorder attempts to manipulate however disorder attempts to manipulate however disorder attempts to manipulate however the motivation with histrionic the motivation with histrionic the motivation with histrionic personality disorder is that attention personality disorder is that attention personality disorder is that attention whereas with borderline personality whereas with borderline personality whereas with borderline personality disorder the underlying motivation for disorder the underlying motivation for disorder the underlying motivation for almost everything is to avoid almost everything is to avoid almost everything is to avoid abandonment so you'll see frantic abandonment so you'll see frantic abandonment so you'll see frantic attempts to avoid abandonment frantic attempts to avoid abandonment frantic attempts to avoid abandonment frantic attempts to keep people close and those attempts to keep people close and those attempts to keep people close and those frantic attempts can be really harmful frantic attempts can be really harmful frantic attempts can be really harmful to the person and to others to the person and to others to the person and to others to the person themselves

to the person themselves to the person themselves so the fear of Abandonment can so the fear of Abandonment can so the fear of Abandonment can result in the very thing you're afraid result in the very thing you're afraid result in the very thing you're afraid of right of right of right and and I there has been some research and and I there has been some research and and I there has been some research also to suggest that there that also to suggest that there that also to suggest that there that borderline personality disorder has borderline personality disorder has borderline personality disorder has different types as well different types as well different types as well um um um and I think this is really important and I think this is really important and I think this is really important because in my own work I have because in my own work I have because in my own work I have encountered many people with borderline encountered many people with borderline encountered many people with borderline personality disorder in my own life personality disorder in my own life personality disorder in my own life right right right um um um and there are different types right I and there are different types right I and there are different types right I I'm thinking specifically of a girl I I'm thinking specifically of a girl I I'm thinking specifically of a girl I really love who I've worked with for really love who I've worked with for really love who I've worked with for years who is so self-aware about this years who is so self-aware about this years who is so self-aware about this and endearing and uh she she owns her and endearing and uh she she owns her and endearing and uh she she owns her shit I can forgive almost anything if shit I can forgive almost anything if shit I can forgive almost anything if somebody just owns their shit somebody just owns their shit somebody just owns their shit um she is she might lose her temper she um she is she might lose her temper she um she is she might lose her temper she might lash out she can be erratic but might lash out she can be erratic but might lash out she can be erratic but she will come back and apologize own it she will come back and apologize own it she will come back and apologize own it and accept full responsibility and not and accept full responsibility and not and accept full responsibility and not only that but identify it and make only that but identify it and make only that but identify it and make changes changes changes she doesn't want to be harmful I adore she doesn't want to be harmful I adore she doesn't want to be harmful I adore that about her I think it's an admirable that about her I think it's an admirable that about her I think it's an admirable quality more of us could have quality more of us could have quality more of us could have um that's very different than um that's very different than um that's very different than when you think about it there are nine when you think about it there are nine when you think about it there are nine different symptoms and you only need different symptoms and you only need different symptoms and you only need five to meet criteria so depending on five to meet criteria so depending on five to meet criteria so depending on which symptoms you have you might be far which symptoms you have you might be far which symptoms you have you might be far more calculated conniving manipulative more calculated conniving manipulative more calculated conniving manipulative or you may just be more of the impulsive or you may just be more of the impulsive or you may just be more of the impulsive kind of messy emotionally erratic type

kind of messy emotionally erratic type kind of messy emotionally erratic type and so there's some new research also and so there's some new research also and so there's some new research also coming out that's even suggested that coming out that's even suggested that coming out that's even suggested that among women among women among women those that score higher in some of these those that score higher in some of these those that score higher in some of these more calculated traits of the disorder more calculated traits of the disorder more calculated traits of the disorder may actually be it may be a certain may actually be it may be a certain may actually be it may be a certain presentation of female psychopathy presentation of female psychopathy presentation of female psychopathy yeah are are some of these personality yeah are are some of these personality yeah are are some of these personality disorders again probably impossible disorders again probably impossible disorders again probably impossible question to answer but question to answer but question to answer but how much of it is nature how much of it how much of it is nature how much of it how much of it is nature how much of it is nurture or how much of it is in the is nurture or how much of it is in the is nurture or how much of it is in the genetics and you just can't do much with genetics and you just can't do much with genetics and you just can't do much with uh maybe another question a different uh maybe another question a different uh maybe another question a different way to ask that is how much can you help way to ask that is how much can you help way to ask that is how much can you help that how how much can you become better that how how much can you become better that how how much can you become better that is a tough question so there's been that is a tough question so there's been that is a tough question so there's been a ton of change in the way we've thought a ton of change in the way we've thought a ton of change in the way we've thought about the etiology of these personality about the etiology of these personality about the etiology of these personality disorders specific to borderline disorders specific to borderline disorders specific to borderline personality disorder I think in general personality disorder I think in general personality disorder I think in general the view is that most people believe the view is that most people believe the view is that most people believe that it was associated with neglect or that it was associated with neglect or that it was associated with neglect or trauma and childhood trauma and childhood trauma and childhood while there is a correlation there while there is a correlation there while there is a correlation there there's a correlation between that and there's a correlation between that and there's a correlation between that and many mental health issues not just many mental health issues not just many mental health issues not just borderline personality disorder we also borderline personality disorder we also borderline personality disorder we also there is evidence to support a genetic there is evidence to support a genetic there is evidence to support a genetic basis for this personality disorder and basis for this personality disorder and basis for this personality disorder and there are people who have borderline there are people who have borderline there are people who have borderline personality disorders that report no personality disorders that report no personality disorders that report no childhood trauma or difficulty childhood trauma or difficulty childhood trauma or difficulty um and I've and I have seen I you know um and I've and I have seen I you know um and I've and I have seen I you know sometimes things just happen so sometimes things just happen so sometimes things just happen so I think it's a mix I think we need to

I think it's a mix I think we need to I think it's a mix I think we need to think of it as biopsychosocial which is think of it as biopsychosocial which is think of it as biopsychosocial which is generally the answer to most things when generally the answer to most things when generally the answer to most things when you're talking about how a mental health you're talking about how a mental health you're talking about how a mental health issue comes to be issue comes to be issue comes to be um I certainly think that in most cases um I certainly think that in most cases um I certainly think that in most cases and here's just me speaking personally and here's just me speaking personally and here's just me speaking personally again I think in my own work in most again I think in my own work in most again I think in my own work in most cases what I see is that somebody may cases what I see is that somebody may cases what I see is that somebody may have some sort of predisposition then have some sort of predisposition then have some sort of predisposition then they go through certain life events and they go through certain life events and they go through certain life events and learn patterns of Behaving that may learn patterns of Behaving that may learn patterns of Behaving that may serve them well as a child in a serve them well as a child in a serve them well as a child in a dysfunctional situation but end up being dysfunctional situation but end up being dysfunctional situation but end up being very problematic later on or they just very problematic later on or they just very problematic later on or they just have enough hardship that that Gene have enough hardship that that Gene have enough hardship that that Gene whatever it was lying dormant that whatever it was lying dormant that whatever it was lying dormant that little borderline personality disorder little borderline personality disorder little borderline personality disorder Gene expresses itself and you'll see Gene expresses itself and you'll see Gene expresses itself and you'll see that with things like schizophrenia that with things like schizophrenia that with things like schizophrenia depression anxiety disorders there tend depression anxiety disorders there tend depression anxiety disorders there tend to be certain ages where you'll just see to be certain ages where you'll just see to be certain ages where you'll just see that expression happen that expression happen that expression happen all right for the record it got cold in all right for the record it got cold in all right for the record it got cold in here so we upgraded with a blanket you look cozy uh just as a question for you look cozy uh just as a question for me just observing the trial it was me just observing the trial it was me just observing the trial it was interesting interesting interesting that first of all is a really that first of all is a really that first of all is a really raw and honest exploration of raw and honest exploration of raw and honest exploration of intimate relationship between two people intimate relationship between two people intimate relationship between two people oh yeah it was interesting to watch I oh yeah it was interesting to watch I oh yeah it was interesting to watch I suppose I haven't watched that kind of suppose I haven't watched that kind of suppose I haven't watched that kind of thing thing thing it made me think about what makes for a it made me think about what makes for a it made me think about what makes for a good relationship good relationship good relationship all the all the many things we've all the all the many things we've all the all the many things we've already talked about in this already talked about in this already talked about in this conversation

conversation conversation it was useful for that but also there it was useful for that but also there it was useful for that but also there was raw recordings of two humans was raw recordings of two humans was raw recordings of two humans interaction what do you think about that interaction what do you think about that interaction what do you think about that that there's recordings it's kind of that there's recordings it's kind of that there's recordings it's kind of interesting the act of recording your interesting the act of recording your interesting the act of recording your partner yeah and not not the ethics of partner yeah and not not the ethics of partner yeah and not not the ethics of that or so on but the fact that you have that or so on but the fact that you have that or so on but the fact that you have this data made me wonder like if I this data made me wonder like if I this data made me wonder like if I recorded myself how would I sound like recorded myself how would I sound like recorded myself how would I sound like when you record yourself no but here when you record yourself no but here when you record yourself no but here with microphones but when you're in with microphones but when you're in with microphones but when you're in private yeah you wonder private yeah you wonder private yeah you wonder like I had a a bit of a fight with a like I had a a bit of a fight with a like I had a a bit of a fight with a friend uh last week friend uh last week friend uh last week and I wondered which one of us was the and I wondered which one of us was the and I wondered which one of us was the asshole I would love to hear the asshole I would love to hear the asshole I would love to hear the recording because we were a little bit I recording because we were a little bit I recording because we were a little bit I think we're a little bit rude to each think we're a little bit rude to each think we're a little bit rude to each other and I wonder how it went wrong I other and I wonder how it went wrong I other and I wonder how it went wrong I love that you asked yourself that love that you asked yourself that love that you asked yourself that question that's so useful we made up the question that's so useful we made up the question that's so useful we made up the next day and we I think both agreed to next day and we I think both agreed to next day and we I think both agreed to not ever talk about it but I want this not ever talk about it but I want this not ever talk about it but I want this to bury it deep yeah you know I record to bury it deep yeah you know I record to bury it deep yeah you know I record my couple sessions and one of the my couple sessions and one of the my couple sessions and one of the primary purposes of that is so that primary purposes of that is so that primary purposes of that is so that after if they start to get nasty with after if they start to get nasty with after if they start to get nasty with each other in the session I can stop it each other in the session I can stop it each other in the session I can stop it and I can say what was that right and and I can say what was that right and and I can say what was that right and most of the time that what you're most of the time that what you're most of the time that what you're describing is so useful because we don't describing is so useful because we don't describing is so useful because we don't see ourselves we have no idea that we see ourselves we have no idea that we see ourselves we have no idea that we just came off as critical we think we're just came off as critical we think we're just came off as critical we think we're being completely reasonable and being completely reasonable and being completely reasonable and thoughtful you know whenever somebody's thoughtful you know whenever somebody's thoughtful you know whenever somebody's sort of retelling an argument they got sort of retelling an argument they got sort of retelling an argument they got and they said and then you know I was

and they said and then you know I was and they said and then you know I was just caring and just asked I mean why is just caring and just asked I mean why is just caring and just asked I mean why is there a reason you did you know there a reason you did you know there a reason you did you know something like that if they can actually something like that if they can actually something like that if they can actually see themselves they realize no their jaw see themselves they realize no their jaw see themselves they realize no their jaw was clenched their voice was raised they was clenched their voice was raised they was clenched their voice was raised they actually called a name sometimes they're actually called a name sometimes they're actually called a name sometimes they're shocked shocked shocked uh so just a quick just to linger on it uh so just a quick just to linger on it uh so just a quick just to linger on it the you labeled the you labeled the you labeled Amber Heard as a three six code Type Amber Heard as a three six code Type Amber Heard as a three six code Type going back to our discussion which can going back to our discussion which can going back to our discussion which can mean that quote she's heavily concerned mean that quote she's heavily concerned mean that quote she's heavily concerned with image prone to treating others with with image prone to treating others with with image prone to treating others with cruelty unable to admit responsibility cruelty unable to admit responsibility cruelty unable to admit responsibility for wrongdoing and prone to for wrongdoing and prone to for wrongdoing and prone to externalizing blame and then I also went externalizing blame and then I also went externalizing blame and then I also went into the the mmpi2 list three six into the the mmpi2 list three six into the the mmpi2 list three six includes anxiety tension rigidity fear includes anxiety tension rigidity fear includes anxiety tension rigidity fear of criticism of criticism of criticism suppress hostility merging and passive suppress hostility merging and passive suppress hostility merging and passive or episodic aggression or episodic aggression or episodic aggression suspiciousness egocentricity what else suspiciousness egocentricity what else suspiciousness egocentricity what else projection projection projection what can you say about that code that is what can you say about that code that is what can you say about that code that is not captured in the different not captured in the different not captured in the different personality disorders personality disorders personality disorders um what are we supposed to do that from um what are we supposed to do that from um what are we supposed to do that from a forensic psychology perspective and a forensic psychology perspective and a forensic psychology perspective and what what what are we supposed to do what what what are we supposed to do what what what are we supposed to do that in general forget the 3-6 in that in general forget the 3-6 in that in general forget the 3-6 in general these kinds of code types in general these kinds of code types in general these kinds of code types in that context in the context of a trial that context in the context of a trial that context in the context of a trial if I'm understanding you correctly it's if I'm understanding you correctly it's if I'm understanding you correctly it's sort of what's the point of these code sort of what's the point of these code sort of what's the point of these code types yeah types yeah types yeah um thank you for asking the question um thank you for asking the question um thank you for asking the question better but better but better but I don't know what I'm doing I just I I don't know what I'm doing I just I I don't know what I'm doing I just I just actually honestly really find mmpi just actually honestly really find mmpi just actually honestly really find mmpi too fast I love that you do yeah I love

too fast I love that you do yeah I love too fast I love that you do yeah I love that you get it because I just to me that you get it because I just to me that you get it because I just to me it's such a uh it's almost unbelievable it's such a uh it's almost unbelievable it's such a uh it's almost unbelievable that humans created it that humans created it that humans created it um but I think that goes back to that um but I think that goes back to that um but I think that goes back to that empirical key method of creating empirical key method of creating empirical key method of creating something that enabled it to be as something that enabled it to be as something that enabled it to be as robust as it is and something that is robust as it is and something that is robust as it is and something that is very difficult to beat if not impossible very difficult to beat if not impossible very difficult to beat if not impossible um but the code types really so it um but the code types really so it um but the code types really so it depends on in any forensic case what depends on in any forensic case what depends on in any forensic case what really matters is the legal psycho legal really matters is the legal psycho legal really matters is the legal psycho legal questions so what is the legal question questions so what is the legal question questions so what is the legal question and then what is the psychologist's and then what is the psychologist's and then what is the psychologist's responsibility in assisting with responsibility in assisting with responsibility in assisting with whatever question they're being asked whatever question they're being asked whatever question they're being asked and there are some questions we can't and there are some questions we can't and there are some questions we can't answer some that we can answer some that we can answer some that we can um you don't always need to provide a um you don't always need to provide a um you don't always need to provide a diagnosis when you're asked to provide a diagnosis when you're asked to provide a diagnosis when you're asked to provide a report it depends on the jurisdiction it report it depends on the jurisdiction it report it depends on the jurisdiction it depends on the statute some depends on the statute some depends on the statute some jurisdictions actually require a jurisdictions actually require a jurisdictions actually require a diagnosis in this case I was asked to diagnosis in this case I was asked to diagnosis in this case I was asked to provide a diagnosis so when I'm provide a diagnosis so when I'm provide a diagnosis so when I'm considering a diagnosis you're considering a diagnosis you're considering a diagnosis you're integrating multiple different sources integrating multiple different sources integrating multiple different sources of information you're integrating and of information you're integrating and of information you're integrating and examining self-report you are adding examining self-report you are adding examining self-report you are adding collateral data usually I wasn't able to collateral data usually I wasn't able to collateral data usually I wasn't able to obtain collateral interviews in this obtain collateral interviews in this obtain collateral interviews in this case and that was the decision of the case and that was the decision of the case and that was the decision of the Court they said no collateral interviews Court they said no collateral interviews Court they said no collateral interviews but typically that would be something but typically that would be something but typically that would be something that you would add you're looking at that you would add you're looking at that you would add you're looking at records ideally from birth up until the records ideally from birth up until the records ideally from birth up until the day that the alleged injury occurred and day that the alleged injury occurred and day that the alleged injury occurred and I'm speaking now specifically to a I'm speaking now specifically to a I'm speaking now specifically to a personal injury evaluation or something

personal injury evaluation or something personal injury evaluation or something where somebody is claiming that they where somebody is claiming that they where somebody is claiming that they were harmed psychologically were harmed psychologically were harmed psychologically um but you want as many records as um but you want as many records as um but you want as many records as possible to show how a person functioned possible to show how a person functioned possible to show how a person functioned before that event occurred and how they before that event occurred and how they before that event occurred and how they functioned after and you want it to show functioned after and you want it to show functioned after and you want it to show Financial functioning physical Financial functioning physical Financial functioning physical functioning academic functioning functioning academic functioning functioning academic functioning basically where is there evidence that basically where is there evidence that basically where is there evidence that something in their life changed something in their life changed something in their life changed um where is there evidence that harm um where is there evidence that harm um where is there evidence that harm occurred other than from what they're occurred other than from what they're occurred other than from what they're telling you and uh in addition to all of telling you and uh in addition to all of telling you and uh in addition to all of those records that you're reviewing in those records that you're reviewing in those records that you're reviewing in addition to their self-report then addition to their self-report then addition to their self-report then you're also going to give some of these you're also going to give some of these you're also going to give some of these tests like the mmpi so the code types tests like the mmpi so the code types tests like the mmpi so the code types are really that that strength of the are really that that strength of the are really that that strength of the mmpi2 it gives you really nuanced mmpi2 it gives you really nuanced mmpi2 it gives you really nuanced information about a person's personality information about a person's personality information about a person's personality now again you're not going to use the now again you're not going to use the now again you're not going to use the mmpi2 or any other test by itself to mmpi2 or any other test by itself to mmpi2 or any other test by itself to diagnose someone or you know decide that diagnose someone or you know decide that diagnose someone or you know decide that the person is telling the truth not the person is telling the truth not the person is telling the truth not telling the truth it is just another telling the truth it is just another telling the truth it is just another piece of data and when it's working the piece of data and when it's working the piece of data and when it's working the way it's supposed to It lines up really way it's supposed to It lines up really way it's supposed to It lines up really nicely with all of the other data you're nicely with all of the other data you're nicely with all of the other data you're getting including what you've observed getting including what you've observed getting including what you've observed from the person during your interview from the person during your interview from the person during your interview with them the information they're giving with them the information they're giving with them the information they're giving you or inconsistencies with information you or inconsistencies with information you or inconsistencies with information they're giving you the consistency or they're giving you the consistency or they're giving you the consistency or inconsistency of their self-report from inconsistency of their self-report from inconsistency of their self-report from the records what the records themselves the records what the records themselves the records what the records themselves say etc etc so it's adding it's helping say etc etc so it's adding it's helping say etc etc so it's adding it's helping you clarify and clarify and clarify the you clarify and clarify and clarify the you clarify and clarify and clarify the picture yeah just dialing it down more picture yeah just dialing it down more picture yeah just dialing it down more and more you're just making sure that it

and more you're just making sure that it and more you're just making sure that it is as accurate as possible is as accurate as possible is as accurate as possible okay so given how huge this trial was okay so given how huge this trial was okay so given how huge this trial was given how eloquent you were you were I given how eloquent you were you were I given how eloquent you were you were I know you don't think of it that way but know you don't think of it that way but know you don't think of it that way but from a public perspective you were like from a public perspective you were like from a public perspective you were like the star the star the star because of how well you've been it's I because of how well you've been it's I because of how well you've been it's I mean you know uh I'm pretty sure mean you know uh I'm pretty sure mean you know uh I'm pretty sure Camille's the star Camille is also Camille's the star Camille is also Camille's the star Camille is also incredible I've got a chance to interact incredible I've got a chance to interact incredible I've got a chance to interact with her she's somebody that uh with her she's somebody that uh with her she's somebody that uh really inspires me by how good she is at really inspires me by how good she is at really inspires me by how good she is at her job how much she loves her job and her job how much she loves her job and her job how much she loves her job and how much the fame the money whatever has how much the fame the money whatever has how much the fame the money whatever has not affected the basic core Integrity of not affected the basic core Integrity of not affected the basic core Integrity of who she is as a human being so she's who she is as a human being so she's who she is as a human being so she's also uh she's also incredible okay uh also uh she's also incredible okay uh also uh she's also incredible okay uh how what's the what's the takeaway for how what's the what's the takeaway for how what's the what's the takeaway for you personally from The Trial uh how's you personally from The Trial uh how's you personally from The Trial uh how's it made you a better person how is it it made you a better person how is it it made you a better person how is it changing changed or solidified who you changing changed or solidified who you changing changed or solidified who you are as a psychologist as a forensic are as a psychologist as a forensic are as a psychologist as a forensic psychologist clinical psychologist and psychologist clinical psychologist and psychologist clinical psychologist and so on so on so on wow uh I mean a lot happened in my life wow uh I mean a lot happened in my life wow uh I mean a lot happened in my life around that trial leading up to the around that trial leading up to the around that trial leading up to the trial after the trial trial after the trial trial after the trial um um um so let's tackle forensic psychologists so let's tackle forensic psychologists so let's tackle forensic psychologists first sure okay so in terms of forensic first sure okay so in terms of forensic first sure okay so in terms of forensic psychology psychology psychology um I am grateful to that trial for um I am grateful to that trial for um I am grateful to that trial for really strengthening my abilities really strengthening my abilities really strengthening my abilities um these Stakes were so high that I took um these Stakes were so high that I took um these Stakes were so high that I took you know I was retained about two years you know I was retained about two years you know I was retained about two years prior to the trial so I really delved

prior to the trial so I really delved prior to the trial so I really delved deep into the academic side of forensic deep into the academic side of forensic deep into the academic side of forensic psychology and making sure that psychology and making sure that psychology and making sure that um I was adhering as closely as possible um I was adhering as closely as possible um I was adhering as closely as possible to standard practices best practice to standard practices best practice to standard practices best practice recommendations for this specific type recommendations for this specific type recommendations for this specific type of an examination it was intellectually of an examination it was intellectually of an examination it was intellectually awesome and challenging I feel like my awesome and challenging I feel like my awesome and challenging I feel like my brain was on fire for a full year brain was on fire for a full year brain was on fire for a full year leading up to the trial and that can be leading up to the trial and that can be leading up to the trial and that can be really really fun it was just really really fun it was just really really fun it was just challenging but I am really proud of the challenging but I am really proud of the challenging but I am really proud of the work I did I think the stakes were work I did I think the stakes were work I did I think the stakes were really high it's serious work it's really high it's serious work it's really high it's serious work it's important that it's done well and important that it's done well and important that it's done well and accurately and accurately and accurately and I felt really good about it so I have I felt really good about it so I have I felt really good about it so I have some of those lessons carried through to some of those lessons carried through to some of those lessons carried through to your practice now to both research and your practice now to both research and your practice now to both research and uh some of the things you're doing in uh some of the things you're doing in uh some of the things you're doing in terms of helping couples terms of helping couples terms of helping couples uh no I mean I just uh no I mean I just uh no I mean I just you know my practice hasn't changed that you know my practice hasn't changed that you know my practice hasn't changed that much uh this was more uh just something much uh this was more uh just something much uh this was more uh just something that was more it demanded so much more that was more it demanded so much more that was more it demanded so much more of my time than my typical forensic work of my time than my typical forensic work of my time than my typical forensic work does and personal injury cases are in does and personal injury cases are in does and personal injury cases are in cases where there is an allegation of cases where there is an allegation of cases where there is an allegation of trauma or psychological harm tend to be trauma or psychological harm tend to be trauma or psychological harm tend to be super labor intensive this given um the super labor intensive this given um the super labor intensive this given um the magnitude and how long it had been going magnitude and how long it had been going magnitude and how long it had been going on in the back and forth required a ton on in the back and forth required a ton on in the back and forth required a ton of work before the trial as well so it of work before the trial as well so it of work before the trial as well so it pulled me away from the practice I think pulled me away from the practice I think pulled me away from the practice I think it's been nice to go back a bit if okay it's been nice to go back a bit if okay it's been nice to go back a bit if okay so now personally so now personally so now personally um I've learned some things I've learned um I've learned some things I've learned um I've learned some things I've learned that I need to slow down a little bit

that I need to slow down a little bit that I need to slow down a little bit so this took a lot from you it took a so this took a lot from you it took a so this took a lot from you it took a lot but it was really the culmination I lot but it was really the culmination I lot but it was really the culmination I feel like there are these hoops we jump feel like there are these hoops we jump feel like there are these hoops we jump through again and again you know through again and again you know through again and again you know academic challenges that we continue to academic challenges that we continue to academic challenges that we continue to meet and then there's a next one and a meet and then there's a next one and a meet and then there's a next one and a next one and a next one and in the next one and a next one and in the next one and a next one and in the beginning like when you're getting into beginning like when you're getting into beginning like when you're getting into college or applying to grad schools you college or applying to grad schools you college or applying to grad schools you don't really realize this is going to be don't really realize this is going to be don't really realize this is going to be a never-ending thing especially if I a never-ending thing especially if I a never-ending thing especially if I continue with research or forensic work continue with research or forensic work continue with research or forensic work I love it because it is so academic you I love it because it is so academic you I love it because it is so academic you know you're writing these 75-page know you're writing these 75-page know you're writing these 75-page reports and with citations and reports and with citations and reports and with citations and um you have to be accurate it feels like um you have to be accurate it feels like um you have to be accurate it feels like I'm doing giant board exams again and I'm doing giant board exams again and I'm doing giant board exams again and again and again again and again again and again um it never ends but that feeling I um it never ends but that feeling I um it never ends but that feeling I think you and I were talking about how think you and I were talking about how think you and I were talking about how it's fun to doubt yourself because it it's fun to doubt yourself because it it's fun to doubt yourself because it pushes you to do better work pushes you to do better work pushes you to do better work um but so if you keep having high stakes um but so if you keep having high stakes um but so if you keep having high stakes you're going to work all the time work you're going to work all the time work you're going to work all the time work yourself in the ground constantly be yourself in the ground constantly be yourself in the ground constantly be thinking I'm about oh this question I'm thinking I'm about oh this question I'm thinking I'm about oh this question I'm not sure if I fully know the answer and not sure if I fully know the answer and not sure if I fully know the answer and all the research behind that so I should all the research behind that so I should all the research behind that so I should go there go there go there and again super fun and again super fun and again super fun but but but I don't just do forensic psychology all I don't just do forensic psychology all I don't just do forensic psychology all day I also have own a clinic I provide day I also have own a clinic I provide day I also have own a clinic I provide therapy I've been providing therapy for therapy I've been providing therapy for therapy I've been providing therapy for 15 years so what happens is you have 15 years so what happens is you have 15 years so what happens is you have clients who maybe you've stopped seeing clients who maybe you've stopped seeing clients who maybe you've stopped seeing but when they have a crisis in their but when they have a crisis in their but when they have a crisis in their lives they reach out to you again even

lives they reach out to you again even lives they reach out to you again even if it's seven years later so you've if it's seven years later so you've if it's seven years later so you've accumulated hundreds of clients who at accumulated hundreds of clients who at accumulated hundreds of clients who at any given time are going to reach out any given time are going to reach out any given time are going to reach out when they're in crisis whether or not when they're in crisis whether or not when they're in crisis whether or not you're working on a federal case or in you're working on a federal case or in you're working on a federal case or in Virginia for this and Virginia for this and Virginia for this and that is never going to be something easy that is never going to be something easy that is never going to be something easy to Grapple with because I feel that I am to Grapple with because I feel that I am to Grapple with because I feel that I am letting somebody down I know I am letting somebody down I know I am letting somebody down I know I am because these are people I genuinely because these are people I genuinely because these are people I genuinely care about and they care about me and care about and they care about me and care about and they care about me and they trust me they trust me they trust me and I want to be able to be there for and I want to be able to be there for and I want to be able to be there for them I know that it's disappointing if I them I know that it's disappointing if I them I know that it's disappointing if I can't be and it's also very difficult can't be and it's also very difficult can't be and it's also very difficult to separate out the Professional Therapy to separate out the Professional Therapy to separate out the Professional Therapy relationship from loving someone who relationship from loving someone who relationship from loving someone who you've seen through some of the most you've seen through some of the most you've seen through some of the most difficult parts of their lives and I can difficult parts of their lives and I can difficult parts of their lives and I can explain that to people all day long but explain that to people all day long but explain that to people all day long but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's it doesn't necessarily mean that it's it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be easy for someone to accept going to be easy for someone to accept going to be easy for someone to accept when I can't talk to them when I can't talk to them when I can't talk to them and they just found out you know their and they just found out you know their and they just found out you know their husband was leading a double life or you husband was leading a double life or you husband was leading a double life or you know their sister just died and I can't know their sister just died and I can't know their sister just died and I can't even get on a call because I'm getting even get on a call because I'm getting even get on a call because I'm getting maybe 15 messages like that a day maybe 15 messages like that a day maybe 15 messages like that a day and have to testify and have to run my and have to testify and have to run my and have to testify and have to run my practice practice practice um so I think that was why I need to um so I think that was why I need to um so I think that was why I need to slow down this case I was doing all of slow down this case I was doing all of slow down this case I was doing all of that that that um um um and then like the academic load or the and then like the academic load or the and then like the academic load or the work involved was just tremendous work involved was just tremendous work involved was just tremendous um and some stuff happened like my dad um and some stuff happened like my dad um and some stuff happened like my dad he started having his cognitive decline he started having his cognitive decline he started having his cognitive decline I got a medical diagnosis that is stress

I got a medical diagnosis that is stress I got a medical diagnosis that is stress induced induced induced um I really thought I was getting away um I really thought I was getting away um I really thought I was getting away with it I I really believed that people with it I I really believed that people with it I I really believed that people who talk like a lot about self-care were who talk like a lot about self-care were who talk like a lot about self-care were kind of full of shit and just didn't kind of full of shit and just didn't kind of full of shit and just didn't know how to push themselves I still know how to push themselves I still know how to push themselves I still believe in pushing ourselves believe in pushing ourselves believe in pushing ourselves but I think I but I think I but I think I I I I kind of traversed into an area and kind of traversed into an area and kind of traversed into an area and without realizing it where I was no without realizing it where I was no without realizing it where I was no longer pushing myself to challenge longer pushing myself to challenge longer pushing myself to challenge myself or see what I was capable of I myself or see what I was capable of I myself or see what I was capable of I was almost pushing myself like as a was almost pushing myself like as a was almost pushing myself like as a necessity because I didn't know what necessity because I didn't know what necessity because I didn't know what else to do anymore else to do anymore else to do anymore just an obligation just an obligation just an obligation um it wasn't even I wasn't pushing um it wasn't even I wasn't pushing um it wasn't even I wasn't pushing myself to do myself to do myself to do the debt herd case reminded me of that the debt herd case reminded me of that the debt herd case reminded me of that feeling of pushing myself to do feeling of pushing myself to do feeling of pushing myself to do something I wasn't sure I was capable of something I wasn't sure I was capable of something I wasn't sure I was capable of and overcoming that challenge that was and overcoming that challenge that was and overcoming that challenge that was rewarding but when you're piling that on rewarding but when you're piling that on rewarding but when you're piling that on with like running a business and all with like running a business and all with like running a business and all these other things and trying to be these other things and trying to be these other things and trying to be perfect at all of them perfect at all of them perfect at all of them um that just starts to become like a um that just starts to become like a um that just starts to become like a feeling of necessity and it's not feeling of necessity and it's not feeling of necessity and it's not healthy healthy healthy that said you somehow managed to hold it that said you somehow managed to hold it that said you somehow managed to hold it all together to put forward a mask for all together to put forward a mask for all together to put forward a mask for performance and like you said still take performance and like you said still take performance and like you said still take care of all these clients because you're care of all these clients because you're care of all these clients because you're the most important person in their lives the most important person in their lives the most important person in their lives for many of them for many of them for many of them um is there is there a secret to that um is there is there a secret to that um is there is there a secret to that was there any hacks was there any hacks was there any hacks is there uh I don't get no and honestly is there uh I don't get no and honestly is there uh I don't get no and honestly I it's not 100 it's not how I I it's not 100 it's not how I I it's not 100 it's not how I it's a work in progress right I I don't it's a work in progress right I I don't it's a work in progress right I I don't have an answer for

have an answer for have an answer for I wouldn't want my life to be any other I wouldn't want my life to be any other I wouldn't want my life to be any other way I you know I wouldn't have had the way I you know I wouldn't have had the way I you know I wouldn't have had the opportunity to work on this case if I opportunity to work on this case if I opportunity to work on this case if I hadn't established my practice and had hadn't established my practice and had hadn't established my practice and had Outreach and um Outreach and um Outreach and um so I I can't figure out like which piece so I I can't figure out like which piece so I I can't figure out like which piece you take it out without it all crumbling you take it out without it all crumbling you take it out without it all crumbling yeah but I would love to have a little yeah but I would love to have a little yeah but I would love to have a little more down time so it all kind of works more down time so it all kind of works more down time so it all kind of works together and there's together and there's together and there's passion is the fuel that passion is the fuel that passion is the fuel that uh that's behind all of it probably uh that's behind all of it probably uh that's behind all of it probably that's probably the reason you haven't that's probably the reason you haven't that's probably the reason you haven't lost your mind quite yet maybe yeah lost your mind quite yet maybe yeah lost your mind quite yet maybe yeah maybe unless I mean it depends who you maybe unless I mean it depends who you maybe unless I mean it depends who you ask what about the stress of just being ask what about the stress of just being ask what about the stress of just being in the public eye has that been in the public eye has that been in the public eye has that been difficult for you difficult for you difficult for you that's a lovely question thank you for that's a lovely question thank you for that's a lovely question thank you for asking it because I'm asking it because I'm asking it because I'm it is nice to talk to you about this it is nice to talk to you about this it is nice to talk to you about this because I feel like you probably because I feel like you probably because I feel like you probably understand it a little bit understand it a little bit understand it a little bit um that was something I was absolutely um that was something I was absolutely um that was something I was absolutely unprepared for uh like I said I had no unprepared for uh like I said I had no unprepared for uh like I said I had no idea how many people were watching when idea how many people were watching when idea how many people were watching when I testified I I testified I I testified I I had no idea and I got off the stand I I had no idea and I got off the stand I I had no idea and I got off the stand I kind of staggered to the back room and kind of staggered to the back room and kind of staggered to the back room and truly thought about lying down on the truly thought about lying down on the truly thought about lying down on the floor because I was so exhausted and uh floor because I was so exhausted and uh floor because I was so exhausted and uh you know I'd been up studying on my you know I'd been up studying on my you know I'd been up studying on my stuff terrified that I was gonna forget stuff terrified that I was gonna forget stuff terrified that I was gonna forget some statistic about the mmpi too it's some statistic about the mmpi too it's some statistic about the mmpi too it's gonna be so great it's great for me it's gonna be so great it's great for me it's gonna be so great it's great for me it's gonna be great for people to hear this gonna be great for people to hear this gonna be great for people to hear this that you're human you're too flaws that you're human you're too flaws that you're human you're too flaws that you're that's extremely stressful

that you're that's extremely stressful that you're that's extremely stressful for many many hours I wondered how you for many many hours I wondered how you for many many hours I wondered how you could sit there for so many hours and could sit there for so many hours and could sit there for so many hours and stay so focused and listen so well it's stay so focused and listen so well it's stay so focused and listen so well it's so difficult well I mean I could talk so difficult well I mean I could talk so difficult well I mean I could talk about that too at the moment I came to about that too at the moment I came to about that too at the moment I came to almost like came back to my body and almost like came back to my body and almost like came back to my body and realized where I was and just wanted it realized where I was and just wanted it realized where I was and just wanted it to stop and felt like I was burning to stop and felt like I was burning to stop and felt like I was burning alive I just was thinking I don't want alive I just was thinking I don't want alive I just was thinking I don't want to do this anymore I don't want to do to do this anymore I don't want to do to do this anymore I don't want to do this anymore is this going to stop and this anymore is this going to stop and this anymore is this going to stop and then another question came and I just then another question came and I just then another question came and I just had to get back to it uh but uh so after had to get back to it uh but uh so after had to get back to it uh but uh so after I testified the first time I went in I testified the first time I went in I testified the first time I went in that back room I I might have laid down that back room I I might have laid down that back room I I might have laid down on the ground it's kind of a blur I mean on the ground it's kind of a blur I mean on the ground it's kind of a blur I mean I might have I do remember that Wayne I might have I do remember that Wayne I might have I do remember that Wayne Dennison uh one of the senior managing Dennison uh one of the senior managing Dennison uh one of the senior managing Partners at Brown redneck who is a Partners at Brown redneck who is a Partners at Brown redneck who is a phenomenal guy and absolutely brilliant phenomenal guy and absolutely brilliant phenomenal guy and absolutely brilliant I will be indebted in for life because I will be indebted in for life because I will be indebted in for life because um I trusted him I trusted him and that um I trusted him I trusted him and that um I trusted him I trusted him and that made all the difference in probably how made all the difference in probably how made all the difference in probably how I testified but he came in the back and I testified but he came in the back and I testified but he came in the back and he was looking at his phone and he said he was looking at his phone and he said he was looking at his phone and he said you're on the cover of time something on you're on the cover of time something on you're on the cover of time something on you know like Apple news you know like Apple news you know like Apple news and I thought I mean I really I thought and I thought I mean I really I thought and I thought I mean I really I thought he was messing with me he was messing with me he was messing with me um I thought it was it was his joke way um I thought it was it was his joke way um I thought it was it was his joke way of saying like I did great of saying like I did great of saying like I did great you've worked with uh veterans you've worked with uh veterans you've worked with uh veterans um what is PTSD in that context what um what is PTSD in that context what um what is PTSD in that context what what's the landscape of psychological what's the landscape of psychological what's the landscape of psychological sufferings that sufferings that sufferings that veteran soldiers go through um um well if we're talking about combat well if we're talking about combat well if we're talking about combat exposure exposure exposure you're seeing

you're seeing you're seeing things you're not meant to see you're things you're not meant to see you're things you're not meant to see you're seeing the worst of humanity people seeing the worst of humanity people seeing the worst of humanity people harming other people it's not natural harming other people it's not natural harming other people it's not natural for for for um others to intend to harm us it's not um others to intend to harm us it's not um others to intend to harm us it's not natural for us to harm others and natural for us to harm others and natural for us to harm others and this dehumanization can occur that's so this dehumanization can occur that's so this dehumanization can occur that's so troubling and disturbing that people troubling and disturbing that people troubling and disturbing that people have a hard time living with it later or have a hard time living with it later or have a hard time living with it later or they just feel this ongoing anger they just feel this ongoing anger they just feel this ongoing anger um um um yeah it's it depends it depends on the yeah it's it depends it depends on the yeah it's it depends it depends on the trauma they're exposed to it depends on trauma they're exposed to it depends on trauma they're exposed to it depends on you know whether their Convoy was you know whether their Convoy was you know whether their Convoy was ambushed by weapons that were purchased ambushed by weapons that were purchased ambushed by weapons that were purchased from money that was given to this from money that was given to this from money that was given to this Village from the US government Village from the US government Village from the US government um it depends on whether um it depends on whether um it depends on whether um um um they did something that they have a hard they did something that they have a hard they did something that they have a hard time reconciling outside of War now that time reconciling outside of War now that time reconciling outside of War now that they're back home in Civilization they're back home in Civilization they're back home in Civilization um depends on whether they lost a lot of um depends on whether they lost a lot of um depends on whether they lost a lot of their comrades and feel that guilt of their comrades and feel that guilt of their comrades and feel that guilt of being a Survivor and again not everybody being a Survivor and again not everybody being a Survivor and again not everybody develops PTSD it really it's a mental develops PTSD it really it's a mental develops PTSD it really it's a mental disorder it's serious we talk so much disorder it's serious we talk so much disorder it's serious we talk so much about trauma and PTSD gets thrown around about trauma and PTSD gets thrown around about trauma and PTSD gets thrown around lightly when actually it's very lightly when actually it's very lightly when actually it's very difficult to meet the full criteria for difficult to meet the full criteria for difficult to meet the full criteria for that diagnosis and many people that diagnosis and many people that diagnosis and many people experience severe trauma in their lives experience severe trauma in their lives experience severe trauma in their lives and only about 14 percent are likely to and only about 14 percent are likely to and only about 14 percent are likely to actually develop PTSD it's an exception actually develop PTSD it's an exception actually develop PTSD it's an exception not the norm not the norm not the norm traumatic stress is absolutely normal traumatic stress is absolutely normal traumatic stress is absolutely normal after something traumatic happens you'll

after something traumatic happens you'll after something traumatic happens you'll likely have nightmares you'll likely likely have nightmares you'll likely likely have nightmares you'll likely have anxiety you'll feel depressed have anxiety you'll feel depressed have anxiety you'll feel depressed because you're a human being and because you're a human being and because you're a human being and something abnormal happened but PTSD is something abnormal happened but PTSD is something abnormal happened but PTSD is a longer standing condition that is a longer standing condition that is a longer standing condition that is significantly impairing in a person's significantly impairing in a person's significantly impairing in a person's life and I think we've lost that in some life and I think we've lost that in some life and I think we've lost that in some of the sort of narrative in society it of the sort of narrative in society it of the sort of narrative in society it just everybody has PTSD but no you can just everybody has PTSD but no you can just everybody has PTSD but no you can have traumatic stress you can be have traumatic stress you can be have traumatic stress you can be distressed you can be affected by trauma distressed you can be affected by trauma distressed you can be affected by trauma and not have that particular diagnosis and not have that particular diagnosis and not have that particular diagnosis PTSD PTSD PTSD significantly impairs people's lives significantly impairs people's lives significantly impairs people's lives how do veterans how do soldiers who how do veterans how do soldiers who how do veterans how do soldiers who suffer from PTSD or close to that kind suffer from PTSD or close to that kind suffer from PTSD or close to that kind of diagnosis begin to heal of diagnosis begin to heal of diagnosis begin to heal what's the path for healing well I will what's the path for healing well I will what's the path for healing well I will hand it to the military because I think hand it to the military because I think hand it to the military because I think in terms of working with their active in terms of working with their active in terms of working with their active duty service members they really invest duty service members they really invest duty service members they really invest heavily in mental health the U.S heavily in mental health the U.S heavily in mental health the U.S Department of Defense was one of the Department of Defense was one of the Department of Defense was one of the first to bring animal assisted therapy first to bring animal assisted therapy first to bring animal assisted therapy into any type of treatment in the early into any type of treatment in the early into any type of treatment in the early 1900s with uh bringing you know farming 1900s with uh bringing you know farming 1900s with uh bringing you know farming into certain hospitals and letting into certain hospitals and letting into certain hospitals and letting veterans help with the farms and brush veterans help with the farms and brush veterans help with the farms and brush the horses and which is so Advanced the horses and which is so Advanced the horses and which is so Advanced because now we have all this research on because now we have all this research on because now we have all this research on animal assisted therapy and animal assisted therapy and animal assisted therapy and um how beneficial it is and just looking um how beneficial it is and just looking um how beneficial it is and just looking in the eyes of a dog can increase your in the eyes of a dog can increase your in the eyes of a dog can increase your pain threshold and speed healing after a pain threshold and speed healing after a pain threshold and speed healing after a cardiac arrest help people with dementia cardiac arrest help people with dementia cardiac arrest help people with dementia and ambulate more freely it's incredible and ambulate more freely it's incredible and ambulate more freely it's incredible stuff simple

stuff simple stuff simple uh and the military was ahead of the uh and the military was ahead of the uh and the military was ahead of the game on that and I don't think that's game on that and I don't think that's game on that and I don't think that's changed I did my training at a military changed I did my training at a military changed I did my training at a military Hospital in Hawaii tripler Army Medical Hospital in Hawaii tripler Army Medical Hospital in Hawaii tripler Army Medical Center it was phenomenal training and Center it was phenomenal training and Center it was phenomenal training and you know our psych Department there was you know our psych Department there was you know our psych Department there was so much interesting research going on we so much interesting research going on we so much interesting research going on we had and it was so integrated so you had and it was so integrated so you had and it was so integrated so you might not imagine that the military might not imagine that the military might not imagine that the military would be doing this but we had an would be doing this but we had an would be doing this but we had an acupuncture Department we had a acupuncture Department we had a acupuncture Department we had a chiropractic Department we had a yoga chiropractic Department we had a yoga chiropractic Department we had a yoga section we were doing yoga sessions section we were doing yoga sessions section we were doing yoga sessions there there there um I mean they anything that has um I mean they anything that has um I mean they anything that has evidence to support its efficacy was evidence to support its efficacy was evidence to support its efficacy was being utilized and I think that's pretty being utilized and I think that's pretty being utilized and I think that's pretty cool about our government they have a cool about our government they have a cool about our government they have a lot of funding so I'm glad they're using lot of funding so I'm glad they're using lot of funding so I'm glad they're using it on that the real challenge I think it on that the real challenge I think it on that the real challenge I think comes with the large-scale need of the comes with the large-scale need of the comes with the large-scale need of the veteran population veteran population veteran population um and they slipped through the cracks I um and they slipped through the cracks I um and they slipped through the cracks I know that the dod had a campaign going know that the dod had a campaign going know that the dod had a campaign going where they were doing outreached anybody where they were doing outreached anybody where they were doing outreached anybody who served for instance in the Vietnam who served for instance in the Vietnam who served for instance in the Vietnam War the problem is they were trying to War the problem is they were trying to War the problem is they were trying to get all of these people assessed for get all of these people assessed for get all of these people assessed for PTSD and it was great like they were PTSD and it was great like they were PTSD and it was great like they were getting phone calls mail it was sort of getting phone calls mail it was sort of getting phone calls mail it was sort of saying hey we know that you served come saying hey we know that you served come saying hey we know that you served come on in or let's schedule you an exam with on in or let's schedule you an exam with on in or let's schedule you an exam with a psychologist and just see if your owed a psychologist and just see if your owed a psychologist and just see if your owed benefits the idea of it's great the benefits the idea of it's great the benefits the idea of it's great the problem is that they Outsource to this problem is that they Outsource to this problem is that they Outsource to this third party company they're paying third party company they're paying third party company they're paying really low rates for a one hour meeting really low rates for a one hour meeting really low rates for a one hour meeting with a vet and you don't need to be

with a vet and you don't need to be with a vet and you don't need to be specifically trained in assessing PTSD specifically trained in assessing PTSD specifically trained in assessing PTSD um um um and so you're getting these variations and so you're getting these variations and so you're getting these variations and opinions that are coming through and and opinions that are coming through and and opinions that are coming through and I've had clients who to me who I've I've had clients who to me who I've I've had clients who to me who I've worked with for years who have clear worked with for years who have clear worked with for years who have clear combat related PTSD according to Gold combat related PTSD according to Gold combat related PTSD according to Gold Standard measures according to my Standard measures according to my Standard measures according to my knowing them and observing their knowing them and observing their knowing them and observing their symptoms and how impaired they are and symptoms and how impaired they are and symptoms and how impaired they are and it is clearly associated with combat the it is clearly associated with combat the it is clearly associated with combat the content of their intrusive thoughts content of their intrusive thoughts content of their intrusive thoughts their nightmares Etc their nightmares Etc their nightmares Etc and they are having a one-hour meeting and they are having a one-hour meeting and they are having a one-hour meeting sometimes by phone with one of these sometimes by phone with one of these sometimes by phone with one of these psychologists who's been contracted by psychologists who's been contracted by psychologists who's been contracted by this third party organization that's not this third party organization that's not this third party organization that's not even enough for me to get through the even enough for me to get through the even enough for me to get through the first three few symptom questions on the first three few symptom questions on the first three few symptom questions on the Caps five assessment for PTSD but in Caps five assessment for PTSD but in Caps five assessment for PTSD but in that hour the psychology psychologist is that hour the psychology psychologist is that hour the psychology psychologist is saying definitively no PTSD saying definitively no PTSD saying definitively no PTSD and it's been a travesty for some people and it's been a travesty for some people and it's been a travesty for some people especially for those who need an especially for those who need an especially for those who need an advocate the most it tends to happen to advocate the most it tends to happen to advocate the most it tends to happen to my veterans who are maybe a little bit my veterans who are maybe a little bit my veterans who are maybe a little bit less sophisticated and presenting or less sophisticated and presenting or less sophisticated and presenting or advocating for themselves more humble advocating for themselves more humble advocating for themselves more humble less less less um you know the guys who need deserve it um you know the guys who need deserve it um you know the guys who need deserve it the most right they're just getting the most right they're just getting the most right they're just getting passed over and um and it's a maze I'm passed over and um and it's a maze I'm passed over and um and it's a maze I'm not quite sure what the solution is not quite sure what the solution is not quite sure what the solution is though before I mean I've worked for though before I mean I've worked for though before I mean I've worked for government agencies they're dealing it's government agencies they're dealing it's government agencies they're dealing it's a massive population I love that the a massive population I love that the a massive population I love that the Outreach is even happening and trying to Outreach is even happening and trying to Outreach is even happening and trying to get these guys in for assessment I think get these guys in for assessment I think get these guys in for assessment I think we can criticize any system we can criticize any system we can criticize any system um I'm glad that system is even um I'm glad that system is even um I'm glad that system is even happening but it still needs to be

happening but it still needs to be happening but it still needs to be better so I've I've got a chance to better so I've I've got a chance to better so I've I've got a chance to interact with a lot of soldiers from uh interact with a lot of soldiers from uh interact with a lot of soldiers from uh that served in Iraq and Afghanistan and that served in Iraq and Afghanistan and that served in Iraq and Afghanistan and now a lot of soldiers from all different now a lot of soldiers from all different now a lot of soldiers from all different kinds of nations in Ukraine went to the kinds of nations in Ukraine went to the kinds of nations in Ukraine went to the front front front there's a there's a bond between there's a there's a bond between there's a there's a bond between soldiers unlike any other I don't know soldiers unlike any other I don't know soldiers unlike any other I don't know if you can speak to why do you think if you can speak to why do you think if you can speak to why do you think that is on the opposite side of PTSD that is on the opposite side of PTSD that is on the opposite side of PTSD there's a there's a deep human there's a there's a deep human there's a there's a deep human connection there's like a love for each connection there's like a love for each connection there's like a love for each other what is that what what is that other what is that what what is that other what is that what what is that about war and combat that creates that about war and combat that creates that about war and combat that creates that kind of well you're seeing a kind of well you're seeing a kind of well you're seeing a we talked earlier about that we talked earlier about that we talked earlier about that vulnerability right so vulnerability right so vulnerability right so I I believe that combat I believe that I I believe that combat I believe that I I believe that combat I believe that most survival situations strip away all most survival situations strip away all most survival situations strip away all ego and ego and ego and um um um real in I mean there are a couple real in I mean there are a couple real in I mean there are a couple different layers to this but I have not different layers to this but I have not different layers to this but I have not served in war so I um I want to be served in war so I um I want to be served in war so I um I want to be cautious here but cautious here but cautious here but from what I know uh just about from what I know uh just about from what I know uh just about psychology and also from my own psychology and also from my own psychology and also from my own experience of survival survival type experience of survival survival type experience of survival survival type experiences when you're with a group of experiences when you're with a group of experiences when you're with a group of people and uh people and uh people and uh all the ego Stripped Away Nothing Else all the ego Stripped Away Nothing Else all the ego Stripped Away Nothing Else Matters the focus is on the here and now Matters the focus is on the here and now Matters the focus is on the here and now and a specific Mission and a specific Mission and a specific Mission um or your day to day um or your day to day um or your day to day you can get really close you're very you can get really close you're very you can get really close you're very very vulnerable and very vulnerable and very vulnerable and um and also um and also um and also in my experience the guys I work with in my experience the guys I work with in my experience the guys I work with who have served there aren't a lot of who have served there aren't a lot of who have served there aren't a lot of people who understand what they've been

people who understand what they've been people who understand what they've been through not only some of the Unspeakable through not only some of the Unspeakable through not only some of the Unspeakable things they've been through in combat things they've been through in combat things they've been through in combat but some of the things that they feel but some of the things that they feel but some of the things that they feel are unspeakable about returning are unspeakable about returning are unspeakable about returning especially if they are experiencing especially if they are experiencing especially if they are experiencing trauma a lot of them you know some of trauma a lot of them you know some of trauma a lot of them you know some of the things that service members with the things that service members with the things that service members with PTSD are the most reluctant to disclose PTSD are the most reluctant to disclose PTSD are the most reluctant to disclose is the feeling like they may not know if is the feeling like they may not know if is the feeling like they may not know if they love their children anymore or they love their children anymore or they love their children anymore or their wife their wife their wife that they don't even know if they can that they don't even know if they can that they don't even know if they can love anymore that they feel emotionally love anymore that they feel emotionally love anymore that they feel emotionally numb numb numb um um um that they want to kill someone that they that they want to kill someone that they that they want to kill someone that they have a whole lot of racist beliefs and have a whole lot of racist beliefs and have a whole lot of racist beliefs and thoughts thoughts thoughts um there are a lot of things that can be um there are a lot of things that can be um there are a lot of things that can be associated with PTSD that aren't as associated with PTSD that aren't as associated with PTSD that aren't as clear or expected and these guys clear or expected and these guys clear or expected and these guys don't have many people who understand it don't have many people who understand it don't have many people who understand it or they don't think they would or they don't think they would or they don't think they would but a lot of their fellow service but a lot of their fellow service but a lot of their fellow service members do and so I'm going back to Ukraine and um and so I'm going back to Ukraine and um boy nothing makes nothing makes uh reveals a human nothing makes uh reveals a human condition condition condition in a more pure form than War especially the kind of War you get in especially the kind of War you get in that in that part of the world that in that part of the world that in that part of the world especially the war in Ukraine which is a especially the war in Ukraine which is a especially the war in Ukraine which is a very 20th century kind of War very 20th century kind of War very 20th century kind of War um brutal um brutal um brutal laughs laughs laughs well uh like I mentioned in a few

well uh like I mentioned in a few well uh like I mentioned in a few different ways you're exceptionally different ways you're exceptionally different ways you're exceptionally Successful by I think the best Successful by I think the best Successful by I think the best definition of success you you you're definition of success you you you're definition of success you you you're doing what you love and you're one of doing what you love and you're one of doing what you love and you're one of the uh best people in the world of doing the uh best people in the world of doing the uh best people in the world of doing it and so whatever advice would you give it and so whatever advice would you give it and so whatever advice would you give to young people that look up to you that to young people that look up to you that to young people that look up to you that sorry for the TR in the trial which is sorry for the TR in the trial which is sorry for the TR in the trial which is your most public-facing thing your most public-facing thing your most public-facing thing um and are just looking young people um and are just looking young people um and are just looking young people that are looking to find what they want that are looking to find what they want that are looking to find what they want to do with their life career-wise or I to do with their life career-wise or I to do with their life career-wise or I love that question what would you tell love that question what would you tell love that question what would you tell them I'm gonna tell them something my them I'm gonna tell them something my them I'm gonna tell them something my dad told me he said to me Shannon just dad told me he said to me Shannon just dad told me he said to me Shannon just pick anything pick anything pick anything pick anything pick anything pick anything if you like it at all studying it just if you like it at all studying it just if you like it at all studying it just pick it pick it pick it he was like look he was like look he was like look don't worry about the job you don't even don't worry about the job you don't even don't worry about the job you don't even know all the jobs that exist know all the jobs that exist know all the jobs that exist pick something you like you will make it pick something you like you will make it pick something you like you will make it your own and that is exactly what your own and that is exactly what your own and that is exactly what happened happened happened I like psychology I was reading somehow I like psychology I was reading somehow I like psychology I was reading somehow self-help books it's not like I had this self-help books it's not like I had this self-help books it's not like I had this calling where I you know looking back I calling where I you know looking back I calling where I you know looking back I can actually create that story because I can actually create that story because I can actually create that story because I think now it makes a lot of sense that I think now it makes a lot of sense that I think now it makes a lot of sense that I do what I do but I was lost and scared I do what I do but I was lost and scared I do what I do but I was lost and scared I started studying psychology I met a started studying psychology I met a started studying psychology I met a professor who was really inspiring who professor who was really inspiring who professor who was really inspiring who wasn't even a psychology professor at wasn't even a psychology professor at wasn't even a psychology professor at you but he was public policy you but he was public policy you but he was public policy I stayed in touch with that Professor he I stayed in touch with that Professor he I stayed in touch with that Professor he is a dear friend still to this day that is a dear friend still to this day that is a dear friend still to this day that was 20 years ago we do research together

was 20 years ago we do research together was 20 years ago we do research together in Mexico integrative research with uh in Mexico integrative research with uh in Mexico integrative research with uh you know public policy officials and you know public policy officials and you know public policy officials and environmental engineers and I get to be environmental engineers and I get to be environmental engineers and I get to be the psychologist on the trip I never the psychologist on the trip I never the psychologist on the trip I never ever dreamed that that sort of stuff ever dreamed that that sort of stuff ever dreamed that that sort of stuff could happen I didn't know about could happen I didn't know about could happen I didn't know about forensic psychology I also want to warn forensic psychology I also want to warn forensic psychology I also want to warn anybody who's interested in forensic anybody who's interested in forensic anybody who's interested in forensic psychology that's not like you're like psychology that's not like you're like psychology that's not like you're like solving crimes all day and getting solving crimes all day and getting solving crimes all day and getting called by the FBI you are going to be called by the FBI you are going to be called by the FBI you are going to be sitting alone in your home office with sitting alone in your home office with sitting alone in your home office with your husband bringing you like bowls of your husband bringing you like bowls of your husband bringing you like bowls of cereal and reminding you to go to the cereal and reminding you to go to the cereal and reminding you to go to the bathroom because you haven't gotten up bathroom because you haven't gotten up bathroom because you haven't gotten up in like 24 hours from the computer and in like 24 hours from the computer and in like 24 hours from the computer and uh you're gonna have papers all around uh you're gonna have papers all around uh you're gonna have papers all around you and you're just gonna write 75 dense you and you're just gonna write 75 dense you and you're just gonna write 75 dense pages with citations of like science pages with citations of like science pages with citations of like science it's brutal it's academic it's brutal it's academic it's brutal it's academic um but you're good but it's fulfilling um but you're good but it's fulfilling um but you're good but it's fulfilling my friend my friend Franny posted a meme my friend my friend Franny posted a meme my friend my friend Franny posted a meme of one of the girls from glears that of one of the girls from glears that of one of the girls from glears that they crying and saying like I'm the they crying and saying like I'm the they crying and saying like I'm the happiest I've ever been and she said It happiest I've ever been and she said It happiest I've ever been and she said It reminds her when I try to convince her reminds her when I try to convince her reminds her when I try to convince her to do forensic psych because I think her to do forensic psych because I think her to do forensic psych because I think her mind is perfect for it you have to be mind is perfect for it you have to be mind is perfect for it you have to be strategic and throw but it it's a slug strategic and throw but it it's a slug strategic and throw but it it's a slug but it's wonderful it's wonderful the but it's wonderful it's wonderful the but it's wonderful it's wonderful the image of your husband bringing you image of your husband bringing you image of your husband bringing you cereal while you work on the 75 pages is cereal while you work on the 75 pages is cereal while you work on the 75 pages is maybe the most romantic thing I've ever maybe the most romantic thing I've ever maybe the most romantic thing I've ever heard so we started on love let me ask heard so we started on love let me ask heard so we started on love let me ask one last question about the same topic one last question about the same topic one last question about the same topic what's the role of love in this whole what's the role of love in this whole what's the role of love in this whole thing thing thing in The Human Condition and this whole in The Human Condition and this whole in The Human Condition and this whole experiment we've got going on on Earth

experiment we've got going on on Earth experiment we've got going on on Earth I think it's all there is like that I think it's all there is like that I think it's all there is like that Jewel song Jewel song Jewel song how does that go I don't don't sing it how does that go I don't don't sing it how does that go I don't don't sing it don't sing it don't get it in my head don't sing it don't get it in my head don't sing it don't get it in my head please don't so please don't so please don't so uh there have been some profound moments uh there have been some profound moments uh there have been some profound moments in my life where I feel like I uh am in my life where I feel like I uh am in my life where I feel like I uh am closest to kind of the truth of life or closest to kind of the truth of life or closest to kind of the truth of life or what it's all about and usually there's what it's all about and usually there's what it's all about and usually there's this resonating sense of love and ease this resonating sense of love and ease this resonating sense of love and ease and love for myself love for other and love for myself love for other and love for myself love for other people sort of like it's all okay we're people sort of like it's all okay we're people sort of like it's all okay we're all okay we're gonna get through this all okay we're gonna get through this all okay we're gonna get through this um um um I liked what you said about the harm I liked what you said about the harm I liked what you said about the harm caused by caused by caused by like the misinformation or negative like the misinformation or negative like the misinformation or negative things being said about you things being said about you things being said about you because you're right it it harms that because you're right it it harms that because you're right it it harms that bigger picture I think it holds us back bigger picture I think it holds us back bigger picture I think it holds us back takes us back from that truth that takes us back from that truth that takes us back from that truth that there's a love that connects all of us there's a love that connects all of us there's a love that connects all of us and that uh if you remember about that and that uh if you remember about that and that uh if you remember about that love it's all going to be okay I really love it's all going to be okay I really love it's all going to be okay I really hope it's going to be okay me too I hope it's going to be okay me too I hope it's going to be okay me too I believe it would be thank you so much believe it would be thank you so much believe it would be thank you so much for talking today Shannon you're an for talking today Shannon you're an for talking today Shannon you're an incredible person thank you for incredible person thank you for incredible person thank you for everything you do and for everything you everything you do and for everything you everything you do and for everything you stand for and uh from everything from stand for and uh from everything from stand for and uh from everything from your text message to just who you are your text message to just who you are your text message to just who you are and for this amazing conversation thank and for this amazing conversation thank and for this amazing conversation thank you you you thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with Shannon Curry to conversation with Shannon Curry to conversation with Shannon Curry to support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you some more words from let me leave you some more words from let me leave you some more words from Charles Bukowski Charles Bukowski Charles Bukowski sometimes you climb out of bed in the sometimes you climb out of bed in the sometimes you climb out of bed in the morning and you think

morning and you think morning and you think I'm not going to make it I'm not going to make it I'm not going to make it but you laugh inside remembering all the but you laugh inside remembering all the but you laugh inside remembering all the times you felt that way times you felt that way times you felt that way thank you for listening I hope to see thank you for listening I hope to see thank you for listening I hope to see you next time