Jeffrey Wasserstrom: China, Xi Jinping, Trade War, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Mao | Lex Fridman Podcast #466

The following is a conversation with The following is a conversation with Jeffrey Waserstrom, a historian of Jeffrey Waserstrom, a historian of Jeffrey Waserstrom, a historian of modern China. This is the Lex Freedman modern China. This is the Lex Freedman modern China. This is the Lex Freedman podcast. To support it, please check out podcast. To support it, please check out podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And our sponsors in the description. And our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Jeffrey now, dear friends, here's Jeffrey now, dear friends, here's Jeffrey Waserstrom. You've compared Xi Jinping Waserstrom. You've compared Xi Jinping Waserstrom. You've compared Xi Jinping and Maong in the past. What are the and Maong in the past. What are the and Maong in the past. What are the parallels between the two leaders and parallels between the two leaders and parallels between the two leaders and where do they differ? Xi Jinping of where do they differ? Xi Jinping of where do they differ? Xi Jinping of course is the current leader of China course is the current leader of China course is the current leader of China for the past 12 years and Ma Dong was for the past 12 years and Ma Dong was for the past 12 years and Ma Dong was the communist leader of China from 1949 the communist leader of China from 1949 the communist leader of China from 1949 to to to 1976. So what are the commonalities? 1976. So what are the commonalities? 1976. So what are the commonalities? What are the differences? So the biggest What are the differences? So the biggest What are the differences? So the biggest commonality of them is that they're both commonality of them is that they're both commonality of them is that they're both the subject of personality cults and the subject of personality cults and the subject of personality cults and that Mao was the center of a very that Mao was the center of a very that Mao was the center of a very intensely felt one from 1949 to 1976. intensely felt one from 1949 to 1976. intensely felt one from 1949 to 1976. Then when he died you know there was Then when he died you know there was Then when he died you know there was tremendous outpouring of grief even tremendous outpouring of grief even tremendous outpouring of grief even among people who had objectively among people who had objectively among people who had objectively suffered enormously because of his suffered enormously because of his suffered enormously because of his policies. Xiinping is the first leader policies. Xiinping is the first leader policies. Xiinping is the first leader in China since him who has had a in China since him who has had a in China since him who has had a sustained personality cult of the kind sustained personality cult of the kind sustained personality cult of the kind where if you walk into a bookstore in where if you walk into a bookstore in where if you walk into a bookstore in China the first thing you see are books China the first thing you see are books China the first thing you see are books by him collections of his speeches. And by him collections of his speeches. And by him collections of his speeches. And when Mao was alive, you you might have when Mao was alive, you you might have when Mao was alive, you you might have thought that's sort of what happened thought that's sort of what happened thought that's sort of what happened with Communist Party leaders in China.

with Communist Party leaders in China. with Communist Party leaders in China. But after Mao's death, there was such an But after Mao's death, there was such an But after Mao's death, there was such an effort to not have that kind of effort to not have that kind of effort to not have that kind of personality cult that there was a personality cult that there was a personality cult that there was a tendency to not publish the speeches of tendency to not publish the speeches of tendency to not publish the speeches of a leader until they were done being in a leader until they were done being in a leader until they were done being in power. I I was first in China in 1986 power. I I was first in China in 1986 power. I I was first in China in 1986 and you could go for days without being and you could go for days without being and you could go for days without being intensely aware of who was in charge of intensely aware of who was in charge of intensely aware of who was in charge of the party. you would know but his face the party. you would know but his face the party. you would know but his face wasn't everywhere. The newspaper wasn't wasn't everywhere. The newspaper wasn't wasn't everywhere. The newspaper wasn't dominated with stories about him and dominated with stories about him and dominated with stories about him and quotations from his words and things quotations from his words and things quotations from his words and things like that. So with Xiinping you've had a like that. So with Xiinping you've had a like that. So with Xiinping you've had a a throwback to that period in Communist a throwback to that period in Communist a throwback to that period in Communist Party rule which seemed as though it Party rule which seemed as though it Party rule which seemed as though it might be a part of the past. So that's might be a part of the past. So that's might be a part of the past. So that's that's a key commonality and a key that's a key commonality and a key that's a key commonality and a key difference is that Mao really reveled in difference is that Mao really reveled in difference is that Mao really reveled in chaos in turning things upside down in a chaos in turning things upside down in a chaos in turning things upside down in a sense that um you know he talked about sense that um you know he talked about sense that um you know he talked about class struggle which came out of Marxism class struggle which came out of Marxism class struggle which came out of Marxism but he also really his favorite work of but he also really his favorite work of but he also really his favorite work of Chinese popular fiction was the monkey Chinese popular fiction was the monkey Chinese popular fiction was the monkey king about this legendary figure who king about this legendary figure who king about this legendary figure who this this monkey king who could turn the this this monkey king who could turn the this this monkey king who could turn the heavens upside down. So he reveled in heavens upside down. So he reveled in heavens upside down. So he reveled in disorder and thought disorder was a was disorder and thought disorder was a was disorder and thought disorder was a was a way to improve things. Xiinping is a way to improve things. Xiinping is a way to improve things. Xiinping is very orderly is very concerned with kind very orderly is very concerned with kind very orderly is very concerned with kind of stability and of stability and of stability and predictability. So you can see them as predictability. So you can see them as predictability. So you can see them as very very different that way. And Mao very very different that way. And Mao very very different that way. And Mao also liked to stir things up like to also liked to stir things up like to also liked to stir things up like to have people on the streets um clamoring.

have people on the streets um clamoring. have people on the streets um clamoring. So Xiinping even though he has a So Xiinping even though he has a So Xiinping even though he has a personality cult it's not manifesting personality cult it's not manifesting personality cult it's not manifesting itself. He doesn't like the idea of itself. He doesn't like the idea of itself. He doesn't like the idea of people on the streets in any anything people on the streets in any anything people on the streets in any anything that can't be controlled. that can't be controlled. that can't be controlled. So you can, you know, there are a lot of So you can, you know, there are a lot of So you can, you know, there are a lot of ways that they're they're similar, a lot ways that they're they're similar, a lot ways that they're they're similar, a lot of ways they're different. They're also of ways they're different. They're also of ways they're different. They're also different and this fits with this different and this fits with this different and this fits with this orderliness that orderliness that orderliness that Xiinping talks positively about Xiinping talks positively about Xiinping talks positively about Confucious and Confucian traditions in Confucious and Confucian traditions in Confucious and Confucian traditions in China. Um, and Confucian traditions are China. Um, and Confucian traditions are China. Um, and Confucian traditions are based on kind of stable hierarchies for based on kind of stable hierarchies for based on kind of stable hierarchies for the most part and sort of clear the most part and sort of clear the most part and sort of clear categories of superior and inferior. categories of superior and inferior. categories of superior and inferior. Whereas Mao liked things to be turned Whereas Mao liked things to be turned Whereas Mao liked things to be turned upside down. He thought of Confucianism upside down. He thought of Confucianism upside down. He thought of Confucianism as a feudal way of thought that it hold as a feudal way of thought that it hold as a feudal way of thought that it hold held China back. So you can come up with held China back. So you can come up with held China back. So you can come up with things that they're similar and you can things that they're similar and you can things that they're similar and you can come up with things where they're really come up with things where they're really come up with things where they're really opposites, but they both clearly did opposites, but they both clearly did opposites, but they both clearly did want to see China under rule by the want to see China under rule by the want to see China under rule by the Communist Party and that's been a Communist Party and that's been a Communist Party and that's been a continuity and that connects them to the continuity and that connects them to the continuity and that connects them to the leaders in between them two as well. So leaders in between them two as well. So leaders in between them two as well. So there's some degree as you said that Xi there's some degree as you said that Xi there's some degree as you said that Xi Jinping is possesses the ideas of Jinping is possesses the ideas of Jinping is possesses the ideas of communism and the ideas of Confucianism.

communism and the ideas of Confucianism. communism and the ideas of Confucianism. Uh so let's go all the way back. He Uh so let's go all the way back. He Uh so let's go all the way back. He wrote that in order to understand the wrote that in order to understand the wrote that in order to understand the China of today we have to study its China of today we have to study its China of today we have to study its past. So uh the China of today past. So uh the China of today past. So uh the China of today celebrates ideas of Confucious, a celebrates ideas of Confucious, a celebrates ideas of Confucious, a Chinese philosopher who lived 2500 years Chinese philosopher who lived 2500 years Chinese philosopher who lived 2500 years ago. Can you tell me about the ideas of ago. Can you tell me about the ideas of ago. Can you tell me about the ideas of Confucious? First of all, we we don't Confucious? First of all, we we don't Confucious? First of all, we we don't know that much about the historic know that much about the historic know that much about the historic Confucious. He's he's around the same Confucious. He's he's around the same Confucious. He's he's around the same time as you know figures like Socrates. time as you know figures like Socrates. time as you know figures like Socrates. And like with Socrates, we get a lot of And like with Socrates, we get a lot of And like with Socrates, we get a lot of what we know about him or think we know what we know about him or think we know what we know about him or think we know about him from what his followers said about him from what his followers said about him from what his followers said and things that were attributed to him and things that were attributed to him and things that were attributed to him and dialogues that were written and dialogues that were written and dialogues that were written afterward. So, you know, you can have a afterward. So, you know, you can have a afterward. So, you know, you can have a lot of you can have a lot of fun with lot of you can have a lot of fun with lot of you can have a lot of fun with these sort of axial age thinkers and these sort of axial age thinkers and these sort of axial age thinkers and what they had in common. Another thing what they had in common. Another thing what they had in common. Another thing that connects these axial age thinkers that connects these axial age thinkers that connects these axial age thinkers is they were trying to kind of make a is they were trying to kind of make a is they were trying to kind of make a case for why they should be able to case for why they should be able to case for why they should be able to educate the next generation of the elite educate the next generation of the elite educate the next generation of the elite and sort of had a way of promising that and sort of had a way of promising that and sort of had a way of promising that they had philosophical ideas that helped they had philosophical ideas that helped they had philosophical ideas that helped keep decide how you should run a polity.

keep decide how you should run a polity. keep decide how you should run a polity. Confucious lived in a time where there Confucious lived in a time where there Confucious lived in a time where there were these waring kingdoms in a were these waring kingdoms in a were these waring kingdoms in a territory that later became became territory that later became became territory that later became became China. But what he said was that there China. But what he said was that there China. But what he said was that there had been this period of great order in had been this period of great order in had been this period of great order in the past. That the lines between the past. That the lines between the past. That the lines between inferior and superior were clear and inferior and superior were clear and inferior and superior were clear and there was a kind of synergy between there was a kind of synergy between there was a kind of synergy between superior and inferior that kept superior and inferior that kept superior and inferior that kept everything ticking along really nicely. everything ticking along really nicely. everything ticking along really nicely. He thought that hierarchical He thought that hierarchical He thought that hierarchical relationships were a good thing and that relationships were a good thing and that relationships were a good thing and that the trick was that both sides in a the trick was that both sides in a the trick was that both sides in a hierarchical relationship owed something hierarchical relationship owed something hierarchical relationship owed something to the other. So the father um and son to the other. So the father um and son to the other. So the father um and son relationship was a key one. And the relationship was a key one. And the relationship was a key one. And the father deserved respect from the son but father deserved respect from the son but father deserved respect from the son but owed the son care and benevolence and owed the son care and benevolence and owed the son care and benevolence and things would be fine as long as both things would be fine as long as both things would be fine as long as both sides in a relationship held up their sides in a relationship held up their sides in a relationship held up their end. And he had a whole series of these end. And he had a whole series of these end. And he had a whole series of these relationships. The husband to the wife relationships. The husband to the wife relationships. The husband to the wife was again an unequal one of um the was again an unequal one of um the was again an unequal one of um the husband being superior to the wife but husband being superior to the wife but husband being superior to the wife but him owing the wife care and her owing him owing the wife care and her owing him owing the wife care and her owing him deference. And he had the same him deference. And he had the same him deference. And he had the same notion that then the emperor to the notion that then the emperor to the notion that then the emperor to the ministers were these were all parallels ministers were these were all parallels ministers were these were all parallels and there were no egalitarian and there were no egalitarian and there were no egalitarian relationships in Confucianism. Even relationships in Confucianism. Even relationships in Confucianism. Even something that in the west we often something that in the west we often something that in the west we often think of as a kind of quintessential think of as a kind of quintessential think of as a kind of quintessential quintessentially egalitarian quintessentially egalitarian quintessentially egalitarian relationship between brothers. In um in relationship between brothers. In um in relationship between brothers. In um in the Chinese tradition of Confucianism the Chinese tradition of Confucianism the Chinese tradition of Confucianism there was only older brother and younger there was only older brother and younger there was only older brother and younger brother. There was no brotherhood was

brother. There was no brotherhood was brother. There was no brotherhood was not an ealitarian relationship. It was not an ealitarian relationship. It was not an ealitarian relationship. It was one where the older brother took care of one where the older brother took care of one where the older brother took care of the younger brother and the younger the younger brother and the younger the younger brother and the younger brother showed respect for the older brother showed respect for the older brother showed respect for the older brother. So stable hierarchy Yeah. was brother. So stable hierarchy Yeah. was brother. So stable hierarchy Yeah. was at the core of everything in society. It at the core of everything in society. It at the core of everything in society. It permeated everything including politics. permeated everything including politics. permeated everything including politics. Yeah. And he and there was even a sense Yeah. And he and there was even a sense Yeah. And he and there was even a sense that it it connected the natural world that it it connected the natural world that it it connected the natural world to the supernatural world. So the to the supernatural world. So the to the supernatural world. So the emperor was to heaven this kind of emperor was to heaven this kind of emperor was to heaven this kind of non-personified day deity like the non-personified day deity like the non-personified day deity like the emperor was to the minister. So all of emperor was to the minister. So all of emperor was to the minister. So all of this had these relationships. So the this had these relationships. So the this had these relationships. So the emperor was the son of heaven. And um emperor was the son of heaven. And um emperor was the son of heaven. And um you know for confucious he said so we you know for confucious he said so we you know for confucious he said so we should study the texts. we should study should study the texts. we should study should study the texts. we should study how the sages of old um behaved that how the sages of old um behaved that how the sages of old um behaved that there that society was becoming there that society was becoming there that society was becoming corrupted and was going away from that corrupted and was going away from that corrupted and was going away from that sort of purity of the sages when the the sort of purity of the sages when the the sort of purity of the sages when the the relationships were all in order. So relationships were all in order. So relationships were all in order. So Confucianism was a kind of conservative Confucianism was a kind of conservative Confucianism was a kind of conservative or even backwardlooking thing. It wasn't or even backwardlooking thing. It wasn't or even backwardlooking thing. It wasn't trying to it wasn't arguing for trying to it wasn't arguing for trying to it wasn't arguing for progress. It was arguing for reclaiming progress. It was arguing for reclaiming progress. It was arguing for reclaiming a pure golden age in the past. So it was a pure golden age in the past. So it was a pure golden age in the past. So it was also a kind of conserve. So in all kinds also a kind of conserve. So in all kinds also a kind of conserve. So in all kinds of ways you know it's irreconcilable to of ways you know it's irreconcilable to of ways you know it's irreconcilable to many things about Marxism and communism many things about Marxism and communism many things about Marxism and communism which is all about struggle and all which is all about struggle and all which is all about struggle and all about actually um a progressive view of about actually um a progressive view of about actually um a progressive view of history moving from one stage to the history moving from one stage to the history moving from one stage to the next. So that's the interesting thing next. So that's the interesting thing next. So that's the interesting thing about Xi Jinping and the China of today about Xi Jinping and the China of today about Xi Jinping and the China of today is there is that tension of Confucianism is there is that tension of Confucianism is there is that tension of Confucianism and communism where communism Marxism is

and communism where communism Marxism is and communism where communism Marxism is supposed to you know let go of history supposed to you know let go of history supposed to you know let go of history and Confucianism there's a real and Confucianism there's a real and Confucianism there's a real veneration of history that's happening veneration of history that's happening veneration of history that's happening in China of today so they're able to in China of today so they're able to in China of today so they're able to wear both hats and balance it. Yeah, you wear both hats and balance it. Yeah, you wear both hats and balance it. Yeah, you could say that in many points in the could say that in many points in the could say that in many points in the 20th century, there was a kind of a kind 20th century, there was a kind of a kind 20th century, there was a kind of a kind of struggle between different competing of struggle between different competing of struggle between different competing political groups over which part of the political groups over which part of the political groups over which part of the Chinese past to connect with. Was it to Chinese past to connect with. Was it to Chinese past to connect with. Was it to the Confucian tradition or to the kind the Confucian tradition or to the kind the Confucian tradition or to the kind of rebellious monkey king tradition of rebellious monkey king tradition of rebellious monkey king tradition which was what Mao connected to? um which was what Mao connected to? um which was what Mao connected to? um Xiinping and before him to some extent Xiinping and before him to some extent Xiinping and before him to some extent you know Hu Jun Tao we saw this a little you know Hu Jun Tao we saw this a little you know Hu Jun Tao we saw this a little bit at the Olympics it was more this bit at the Olympics it was more this bit at the Olympics it was more this kind of mix it all together view kind of mix it all together view kind of mix it all together view anything that suggested greatness in the anything that suggested greatness in the anything that suggested greatness in the past could be something that could be past could be something that could be past could be something that could be fused together so Xiinping says that you fused together so Xiinping says that you fused together so Xiinping says that you know Mao is one of his heroes or one of know Mao is one of his heroes or one of know Mao is one of his heroes or one of the people he looks to as a model but so the people he looks to as a model but so the people he looks to as a model but so is Confucious and there's really you is Confucious and there's really you is Confucious and there's really you know they had so little in common but know they had so little in common but know they had so little in common but But they both in his mind and the minds But they both in his mind and the minds But they both in his mind and the minds of others suggest a kind of uh power and of others suggest a kind of uh power and of others suggest a kind of uh power and greatness of the Chinese past. Yeah. So greatness of the Chinese past. Yeah. So greatness of the Chinese past. Yeah. So this platonic notion of greatness and this platonic notion of greatness and this platonic notion of greatness and that you could say connects that's a that you could say connects that's a that you could say connects that's a thread that connects for Xi Jinping the thread that connects for Xi Jinping the thread that connects for Xi Jinping the great history multi,000year history of great history multi,000year history of great history multi,000year history of China. Yeah. And it involves smoothing China. Yeah. And it involves smoothing China. Yeah. And it involves smoothing out all kinds of internal out all kinds of internal out all kinds of internal contradictions. you had, you know, the

contradictions. you had, you know, the contradictions. you had, you know, the first emperor of China, jumping forward first emperor of China, jumping forward first emperor of China, jumping forward a bit, you know, in 221 BC, he um is a bit, you know, in 221 BC, he um is a bit, you know, in 221 BC, he um is anti- scholars. He's he burns books and anti- scholars. He's he burns books and anti- scholars. He's he burns books and he he doesn't venerate these kind of he he doesn't venerate these kind of he he doesn't venerate these kind of rituals and things. Um so he's very much rituals and things. Um so he's very much rituals and things. Um so he's very much against the things that Confucious stood against the things that Confucious stood against the things that Confucious stood for. But and Mao in a sense of having to for. But and Mao in a sense of having to for. But and Mao in a sense of having to choose between Confucious and the first choose between Confucious and the first choose between Confucious and the first emperor, he said, "Well, maybe the first emperor, he said, "Well, maybe the first emperor, he said, "Well, maybe the first emperor had the right idea." uh you know emperor had the right idea." uh you know emperor had the right idea." uh you know scholars can be can be a pain. So he scholars can be can be a pain. So he scholars can be can be a pain. So he said like if you have to choose between said like if you have to choose between said like if you have to choose between Confucianism and that but Xiinping I Confucianism and that but Xiinping I Confucianism and that but Xiinping I think think think continually is kind of not choosing and continually is kind of not choosing and continually is kind of not choosing and if he wants to say well look at the if he wants to say well look at the if he wants to say well look at the great wall look at this wonderful in great wall look at this wonderful in great wall look at this wonderful in fact that was a symbol of kind of fact that was a symbol of kind of fact that was a symbol of kind of strength and domination related to the strength and domination related to the strength and domination related to the first emperor who by the way didn't first emperor who by the way didn't first emperor who by the way didn't build anything like the great wall you build anything like the great wall you build anything like the great wall you see today. He built walls and they were see today. He built walls and they were see today. He built walls and they were fine. You know, they were good. But the fine. You know, they were good. But the fine. You know, they were good. But the great wall itself didn't come into being great wall itself didn't come into being great wall itself didn't come into being until many centuries later. But still, until many centuries later. But still, until many centuries later. But still, this idea of anything that suggests a this idea of anything that suggests a this idea of anything that suggests a kind of greatness is something that as a kind of greatness is something that as a kind of greatness is something that as a in many ways a nationalist above all in many ways a nationalist above all in many ways a nationalist above all else. Xiinping is a a supporter of the else. Xiinping is a a supporter of the else. Xiinping is a a supporter of the party and single party rule. That's party and single party rule. That's party and single party rule. That's something he clearly believes in. And something he clearly believes in. And something he clearly believes in. And he's um a nationalist. He wants to see he's um a nationalist. He wants to see he's um a nationalist. He wants to see China be great and acknowledged as great China be great and acknowledged as great China be great and acknowledged as great on the world stage. Boy, so many on the world stage. Boy, so many on the world stage. Boy, so many contradictions always with Stalin. He contradictions always with Stalin. He contradictions always with Stalin. He was a communist but also a nationalist,

was a communist but also a nationalist, was a communist but also a nationalist, right? That contradiction is is is u right? That contradiction is is is u right? That contradiction is is is u also permeates through through Ma all also permeates through through Ma all also permeates through through Ma all the way to Xiinping. But if you can the way to Xiinping. But if you can the way to Xiinping. But if you can linger on Confucious for a little bit, linger on Confucious for a little bit, linger on Confucious for a little bit, you write that one of the most famous you write that one of the most famous you write that one of the most famous statements of Confucianism is the belief statements of Confucianism is the belief statements of Confucianism is the belief that quote people are pretty much alike that quote people are pretty much alike that quote people are pretty much alike at birth but become differentiated via at birth but become differentiated via at birth but become differentiated via learning. So this sets the tradition learning. So this sets the tradition learning. So this sets the tradition that China places a high value on that China places a high value on that China places a high value on education and on meritocracy. Uh can you education and on meritocracy. Uh can you education and on meritocracy. Uh can you speak to this speak to this speak to this uh Confucious's idea of uh Confucious's idea of uh Confucious's idea of education and how much does it permeate education and how much does it permeate education and how much does it permeate to the China of today? Sure. So there's to the China of today? Sure. So there's to the China of today? Sure. So there's an optimism to this. There's an optimism an optimism to this. There's an optimism an optimism to this. There's an optimism in the sense of a ability that people in the sense of a ability that people in the sense of a ability that people can be good and when exposed to can be good and when exposed to can be good and when exposed to exemplary figures from the past, they'll exemplary figures from the past, they'll exemplary figures from the past, they'll want to be like those exemplary figures. want to be like those exemplary figures. want to be like those exemplary figures. So it's a form of education through kind So it's a form of education through kind So it's a form of education through kind of emulation of models and study of of of emulation of models and study of of of emulation of models and study of of past figures and past texts that were past figures and past texts that were past figures and past texts that were exemplary. And it and it was it did have exemplary. And it and it was it did have exemplary. And it and it was it did have this this idea a relatively positive this this idea a relatively positive this this idea a relatively positive view of human nature and the sort of view of human nature and the sort of view of human nature and the sort of changeability of humans through um changeability of humans through um changeability of humans through um through education. And I think that that through education. And I think that that through education. And I think that that shows through in all kinds of things.

shows through in all kinds of things. shows through in all kinds of things. even the fact that while there were lots even the fact that while there were lots even the fact that while there were lots of killings by the Chinese Communist of killings by the Chinese Communist of killings by the Chinese Communist Party and other groups, there was often Party and other groups, there was often Party and other groups, there was often an idea that um that people could be an idea that um that people could be an idea that um that people could be could be remolded potentially and and could be remolded potentially and and could be remolded potentially and and China was one of the few places where China was one of the few places where China was one of the few places where they didn't kill the um the last they didn't kill the um the last they didn't kill the um the last emperor. You know, the last emperor the emperor. You know, the last emperor the emperor. You know, the last emperor the idea was that he could become anybody idea was that he could become anybody idea was that he could become anybody could be kind of turned into a citizen could be kind of turned into a citizen could be kind of turned into a citizen of this or a subject of this a good a of this or a subject of this a good a of this or a subject of this a good a good member of this polity through the good member of this polity through the good member of this polity through the kind of um education often it was a very kind of um education often it was a very kind of um education often it was a very kind of forceful form of education but I kind of forceful form of education but I kind of forceful form of education but I think that's a carryover from con from think that's a carryover from con from think that's a carryover from con from the confusion times and the confusion times and the confusion times and um over time this confusion idea led to um over time this confusion idea led to um over time this confusion idea led to the creation of uh one of the early the creation of uh one of the early the creation of uh one of the early great civil service exams. An idea that great civil service exams. An idea that great civil service exams. An idea that bureaucracies should be run not by bureaucracies should be run not by bureaucracies should be run not by people who were born into the right people who were born into the right people who were born into the right families but ones who had shown their families but ones who had shown their families but ones who had shown their ability to master these fairly intensive ability to master these fairly intensive ability to master these fairly intensive kind of exams. And the exams were things kind of exams. And the exams were things kind of exams. And the exams were things that could make or break your career. A that could make or break your career. A that could make or break your career. A bit like at some points in the American bit like at some points in the American bit like at some points in the American past, passing a bar exam, a really past, passing a bar exam, a really past, passing a bar exam, a really intensive thing, could could set you on intensive thing, could could set you on intensive thing, could could set you on the road to to a good career. in China the road to to a good career. in China the road to to a good career. in China you had the civil service exam you had the civil service exam you had the civil service exam tradition. So I think this kind of tradition. So I think this kind of tradition. So I think this kind of emphasis on on education and on emphasis on on education and on emphasis on on education and on uh valuing of scholarly

uh valuing of scholarly uh valuing of scholarly pursuits but then Chinese leaders pursuits but then Chinese leaders pursuits but then Chinese leaders throughout history including up to Mao throughout history including up to Mao throughout history including up to Mao and Xiinping have also found scholars to and Xiinping have also found scholars to and Xiinping have also found scholars to be uh tremendously difficult to control. be uh tremendously difficult to control. be uh tremendously difficult to control. So there's an ambivalence to it or So there's an ambivalence to it or So there's an ambivalence to it or contradiction again there. But uh to contradiction again there. But uh to contradiction again there. But uh to which degree this idea of meritocracy which degree this idea of meritocracy which degree this idea of meritocracy that's inherent to the notion that we that's inherent to the notion that we that's inherent to the notion that we all start at the same all start at the same all start at the same line. There's a meritocratic view of line. There's a meritocratic view of line. There's a meritocratic view of human nature there where if you work human nature there where if you work human nature there where if you work hard and you uh learn things you will hard and you uh learn things you will hard and you uh learn things you will succeed. And so the reverse if you succeed. And so the reverse if you succeed. And so the reverse if you haven't succeeded that means you didn't haven't succeeded that means you didn't haven't succeeded that means you didn't work hard and therefore do not deserve work hard and therefore do not deserve work hard and therefore do not deserve the spoils of the of the success. uh the spoils of the of the success. uh the spoils of the of the success. uh does that carry over to the China of does that carry over to the China of does that carry over to the China of today? There's such a challenge in all today? There's such a challenge in all today? There's such a challenge in all these forms of meritocracy because you these forms of meritocracy because you these forms of meritocracy because you know you had the civil serv exams but know you had the civil serv exams but know you had the civil serv exams but the question was who if you if you had a the question was who if you if you had a the question was who if you if you had a really good tutor if you could afford a really good tutor if you could afford a really good tutor if you could afford a really good tutor you had a better really good tutor you had a better really good tutor you had a better chance of passing the exams. Um, one chance of passing the exams. Um, one chance of passing the exams. Um, one thing that happened there was families thing that happened there was families thing that happened there was families would would pull together resources to would would pull together resources to would would pull together resources to try to help the the brightest in their try to help the the brightest in their try to help the the brightest in their group to be able to become part of the group to be able to become part of the group to be able to become part of the official and this kind of pooling official and this kind of pooling official and this kind of pooling together resources to help as a family together resources to help as a family together resources to help as a family was was an important part of that was was an important part of that was was an important part of that structure. But there also was a kind of structure. But there also was a kind of structure. But there also was a kind of um there was always a tension of that um um there was always a tension of that um um there was always a tension of that um so what if you don't succeed some of the

so what if you don't succeed some of the so what if you don't succeed some of the leaders of rebellions against um against leaders of rebellions against um against leaders of rebellions against um against emperors were failed examination emperors were failed examination emperors were failed examination candidates candidates candidates and and and you know this this you you had this you know this this you you had this you know this this you you had this issue and then it became something well issue and then it became something well issue and then it became something well the system was out of whack and it the system was out of whack and it the system was out of whack and it needed a new a new leader and and also needed a new a new leader and and also needed a new a new leader and and also there was a there was something built there was a there was something built there was a there was something built Then it was not so much Confucious Then it was not so much Confucious Then it was not so much Confucious himself but one of his main um main himself but one of his main um main himself but one of his main um main interpreters early interpreters. interpreters early interpreters. interpreters early interpreters. dementious had this idea which can be dementious had this idea which can be dementious had this idea which can be seen as a seen as a seen as a crude justification for rebellion or for crude justification for rebellion or for crude justification for rebellion or for a kind of democracy to say that even a kind of democracy to say that even a kind of democracy to say that even though the emperor rules at the the will though the emperor rules at the the will though the emperor rules at the the will of heaven of heaven of heaven if if he doesn't act like a true emperor if if he doesn't act like a true emperor if if he doesn't act like a true emperor if he's not morally upstanding then if he's not morally upstanding then if he's not morally upstanding then heaven will remove his uh heaven will heaven will remove his uh heaven will heaven will remove his uh heaven will remove its its mandate to him and then remove its its mandate to him and then remove its its mandate to him and then there's no obligation to show deference there's no obligation to show deference there's no obligation to show deference for a ruler who's not behaving like a for a ruler who's not behaving like a for a ruler who's not behaving like a true ruler. And there it sort of true ruler. And there it sort of true ruler. And there it sort of justifies rebellion. And the idea is justifies rebellion. And the idea is justifies rebellion. And the idea is that if it's if the rebellion isn't that if it's if the rebellion isn't that if it's if the rebellion isn't justified, then heaven will stop the justified, then heaven will stop the justified, then heaven will stop the ruler from being killed. But if heaven ruler from being killed. But if heaven ruler from being killed. But if heaven has removed his uh support, then the has removed his uh support, then the has removed his uh support, then the rebellion will succeed and then a new um rebellion will succeed and then a new um rebellion will succeed and then a new um a new ruler will be justified in taking a new ruler will be justified in taking a new ruler will be justified in taking power. So it's a it's an interesting power. So it's a it's an interesting power. So it's a it's an interesting sense that the the universe in this sense that the the universe in this sense that the the universe in this confusion view has a kind of moral

confusion view has a kind of moral confusion view has a kind of moral dimension to it but it also um it's when dimension to it but it also um it's when dimension to it but it also um it's when things actually happen that you see things actually happen that you see things actually happen that you see where the side of morality is. Okay. So where the side of morality is. Okay. So where the side of morality is. Okay. So it's meritocracy with an asterisk. It it's meritocracy with an asterisk. It it's meritocracy with an asterisk. It does seem to be the case maybe you can does seem to be the case maybe you can does seem to be the case maybe you can speak to that that in the Chinese speak to that that in the Chinese speak to that that in the Chinese education system there seems to be a education system there seems to be a education system there seems to be a high value for excellence. Uh hopefully high value for excellence. Uh hopefully high value for excellence. Uh hopefully I'm not generalizing too much but from I'm not generalizing too much but from I'm not generalizing too much but from the things I've seen there are certain the things I've seen there are certain the things I've seen there are certain cultures certain peoples cultures certain peoples cultures certain peoples that you know it's just part of the that you know it's just part of the that you know it's just part of the value system of the culture that you value system of the culture that you value system of the culture that you need to be a really good student. Is need to be a really good student. Is need to be a really good student. Is that the case with the China of today? that the case with the China of today? that the case with the China of today? there's been a lot of emphasis on um on there's been a lot of emphasis on um on there's been a lot of emphasis on um on education and sort of working really education and sort of working really education and sort of working really hard and excelling at at some subjects hard and excelling at at some subjects hard and excelling at at some subjects and having um you know there isn't the and having um you know there isn't the and having um you know there isn't the civil service exam but there is um the civil service exam but there is um the civil service exam but there is um the gaow an exam that really can determine gaow an exam that really can determine gaow an exam that really can determine where you get what kind of um where you get what kind of um where you get what kind of um institution you get into. And I institution you get into. And I institution you get into. And I think, you know, getting back to this think, you know, getting back to this think, you know, getting back to this idea of of meritocracy, which which is idea of of meritocracy, which which is idea of of meritocracy, which which is strong in a lot of um in a lot of strong in a lot of um in a lot of strong in a lot of um in a lot of tradition, it also a kind of um what it tradition, it also a kind of um what it tradition, it also a kind of um what it opens you up to is when there is a sense opens you up to is when there is a sense opens you up to is when there is a sense of unfairness and who's getting ahead of unfairness and who's getting ahead of unfairness and who's getting ahead and how the spoils are being divided.

and how the spoils are being divided. and how the spoils are being divided. This leads to a kind of outrage. And This leads to a kind of outrage. And This leads to a kind of outrage. And some of the biggest protests in in China some of the biggest protests in in China some of the biggest protests in in China have been about this sense of have been about this sense of have been about this sense of nepotism which really seems to subvert nepotism which really seems to subvert nepotism which really seems to subvert this whole this whole this whole um idea of kind of meritocracy and the um idea of kind of meritocracy and the um idea of kind of meritocracy and the the 1989 protest at Tiana even though the 1989 protest at Tiana even though the 1989 protest at Tiana even though kind of in the the western press in kind of in the the western press in kind of in the the western press in particular was discussed as a movement particular was discussed as a movement particular was discussed as a movement for democracy but a lot of the first for democracy but a lot of the first for democracy but a lot of the first posters that went up that got students posters that went up that got students posters that went up that got students really angry were criticisms of really angry were criticisms of really angry were criticisms of corruption within the communist party corruption within the communist party corruption within the communist party and nepotism and this sense that people and nepotism and this sense that people and nepotism and this sense that people despite all the talk I mean despite the despite all the talk I mean despite the despite all the talk I mean despite the fact that most people seem to be having fact that most people seem to be having fact that most people seem to be having to study really hard to pass these exams to study really hard to pass these exams to study really hard to pass these exams to get uh good positions in universities to get uh good positions in universities to get uh good positions in universities that some of them were being handed out that some of them were being handed out that some of them were being handed out via the kind of back door and that led via the kind of back door and that led via the kind of back door and that led to a kind of outrage not I mean that's to a kind of outrage not I mean that's to a kind of outrage not I mean that's true in in in many places but I think it true in in in many places but I think it true in in in many places but I think it gives a special a special anger against gives a special a special anger against gives a special a special anger against nepotism because of that um the way in nepotism because of that um the way in nepotism because of that um the way in which so much emphasis is put on kind of which so much emphasis is put on kind of which so much emphasis is put on kind of the standard exam way of of getting the standard exam way of of getting the standard exam way of of getting ahead. I hope it's okay if we jump ahead. I hope it's okay if we jump ahead. I hope it's okay if we jump around through history a bit and find around through history a bit and find around through history a bit and find the threads that connect everything.

the threads that connect everything. the threads that connect everything. Since you mentioned Tianaan Since you mentioned Tianaan Since you mentioned Tianaan Square, you have studied a lot of Square, you have studied a lot of Square, you have studied a lot of student protests throughout Chinese student protests throughout Chinese student protests throughout Chinese history throughout history in history throughout history in history throughout history in general. What happened in Tianaan general. What happened in Tianaan general. What happened in Tianaan Square? So in 1989 this massive movement Square? So in 1989 this massive movement Square? So in 1989 this massive movement took place. the story of it largely took place. the story of it largely took place. the story of it largely suppressed within China and largely suppressed within China and largely suppressed within China and largely misunderstood um in other places in part misunderstood um in other places in part misunderstood um in other places in part because it happened around the same time because it happened around the same time because it happened around the same time that communism was unraveling and ending that communism was unraveling and ending that communism was unraveling and ending in the the former Soviet block. So I in the the former Soviet block. So I in the the former Soviet block. So I think it's often conflated with what was think it's often conflated with what was think it's often conflated with what was going on there. Um, and so I think one going on there. Um, and so I think one going on there. Um, and so I think one of the key things to know about the of the key things to know about the of the key things to know about the protests in 1989 was that they were an protests in 1989 was that they were an protests in 1989 was that they were an effort to get the Communist Party in effort to get the Communist Party in effort to get the Communist Party in China to do a better job of living up to China to do a better job of living up to China to do a better job of living up to its own stated ideals and to try to its own stated ideals and to try to its own stated ideals and to try to support uh the trend within the party support uh the trend within the party support uh the trend within the party toward a kind of liberalizing toward a kind of liberalizing toward a kind of liberalizing um liberalizing and opening up form uh um liberalizing and opening up form uh um liberalizing and opening up form uh that that had taken shape after Ma death that that had taken shape after Ma death that that had taken shape after Ma death and in a sense the student generation of and in a sense the student generation of and in a sense the student generation of ' 89 and I was there in ' 86 when there ' 89 and I was there in ' 86 when there ' 89 and I was there in ' 86 when there were some sort of warm-up protests there were some sort of warm-up protests there were some sort of warm-up protests there was a kind of frustration with what they was a kind of frustration with what they was a kind of frustration with what they felt was um a half-assed version of what felt was um a half-assed version of what felt was um a half-assed version of what they were talking about that the the they were talking about that the the they were talking about that the the government was saying the party was government was saying the party was government was saying the party was saying we believe in reforming and saying we believe in reforming and saying we believe in reforming and opening up we need to liberalize we need opening up we need to liberalize we need opening up we need to liberalize we need to give people more um more control of

to give people more um more control of to give people more um more control of of their fate And the students felt that of their fate And the students felt that of their fate And the students felt that this was being done more effectively in this was being done more effectively in this was being done more effectively in the economic realm than in the political the economic realm than in the political the economic realm than in the political realm. And that there were a lot of sort realm. And that there were a lot of sort realm. And that there were a lot of sort of partial gestures that that suggested of partial gestures that that suggested of partial gestures that that suggested um the party needed to be pressed to um the party needed to be pressed to um the party needed to be pressed to really really move in that direction. really really move in that direction. really really move in that direction. And it it's it'll seem like a very And it it's it'll seem like a very And it it's it'll seem like a very trivial thing, but I found it trivial thing, but I found it trivial thing, but I found it fascinating in '86 when I was there in fascinating in '86 when I was there in fascinating in '86 when I was there in Shanghai in late Shanghai in late Shanghai in late '86 and students protested and this was '86 and students protested and this was '86 and students protested and this was the first time that students had been the first time that students had been the first time that students had been really on the streets in significant really on the streets in significant really on the streets in significant numbers since the cultural revolution or numbers since the cultural revolution or numbers since the cultural revolution or at least since ' 76. And the students at least since ' 76. And the students at least since ' 76. And the students were inspired by calls for democracy and were inspired by calls for democracy and were inspired by calls for democracy and discussions of democracy by this um this discussions of democracy by this um this discussions of democracy by this um this physicist Von Leur who was a kind of um physicist Von Leur who was a kind of um physicist Von Leur who was a kind of um often thought a Chinese sacarov um he often thought a Chinese sacarov um he often thought a Chinese sacarov um he was a liberalizing intellectual. But one was a liberalizing intellectual. But one was a liberalizing intellectual. But one of the things that students in Shanghai, of the things that students in Shanghai, of the things that students in Shanghai, which where some of the most intense which where some of the most intense which where some of the most intense protests of that year took place, were protests of that year took place, were protests of that year took place, were frustrated about was a rock concert of frustrated about was a rock concert of frustrated about was a rock concert of all things that um Jan and Dean, the all things that um Jan and Dean, the all things that um Jan and Dean, the American surf rock band, which was kind American surf rock band, which was kind American surf rock band, which was kind of like the Beach Boys, only not as big.

of like the Beach Boys, only not as big. of like the Beach Boys, only not as big. And they were um touring China. And it And they were um touring China. And it And they were um touring China. And it was the first time in Shanghai that was the first time in Shanghai that was the first time in Shanghai that there'd been a rock concert. And the there'd been a rock concert. And the there'd been a rock concert. And the students were really excited about this students were really excited about this students were really excited about this because this fit in with what they because this fit in with what they because this fit in with what they thought the Communist Party was moving thought the Communist Party was moving thought the Communist Party was moving toward was letting them be more part of toward was letting them be more part of toward was letting them be more part of the world. And for them that meant being the world. And for them that meant being the world. And for them that meant being more in step with pop culture around the more in step with pop culture around the more in step with pop culture around the world. And at the concert some students world. And at the concert some students world. And at the concert some students got up to dance because that's what they got up to dance because that's what they got up to dance because that's what they knew you were supposed to do at a rock knew you were supposed to do at a rock knew you were supposed to do at a rock concert. And the security guards made concert. And the security guards made concert. And the security guards made them sit down. And for the students in them sit down. And for the students in them sit down. And for the students in Shanghai, this sort of symbolized what Shanghai, this sort of symbolized what Shanghai, this sort of symbolized what was, you know, a faint toward openness was, you know, a faint toward openness was, you know, a faint toward openness that really didn't have follow-through. that really didn't have follow-through. that really didn't have follow-through. We're going to give you rock concerts, We're going to give you rock concerts, We're going to give you rock concerts, but not let you dance. And so the the but not let you dance. And so the the but not let you dance. And so the the protests went on for a little while in protests went on for a little while in protests went on for a little while in '86. And um posters went up. The '86. And um posters went up. The '86. And um posters went up. The officials at at um university said, "No, officials at at um university said, "No, officials at at um university said, "No, this is out of hand. We had chaos on the this is out of hand. We had chaos on the this is out of hand. We had chaos on the streets during the cultural revolution. streets during the cultural revolution. streets during the cultural revolution. We can't go back to that." And nobody We can't go back to that." And nobody We can't go back to that." And nobody wanted to go back to that. So there were wanted to go back to that. So there were wanted to go back to that. So there were posters I saw that said this is new red posters I saw that said this is new red posters I saw that said this is new red guardism and and the students didn't guardism and and the students didn't guardism and and the students didn't want to be associated with that. So it want to be associated with that. So it want to be associated with that. So it wound down pretty quickly and they they wound down pretty quickly and they they wound down pretty quickly and they they they thought you know we're not like the they thought you know we're not like the they thought you know we're not like the red guards. We don't want to make chaos.

red guards. We don't want to make chaos. red guards. We don't want to make chaos. We also are not fervent loyalists of We also are not fervent loyalists of We also are not fervent loyalists of anybody in power. The red guards had anybody in power. The red guards had anybody in power. The red guards had been you know passionate about Mao. The been you know passionate about Mao. The been you know passionate about Mao. The the the analogy partly sort of scared the the analogy partly sort of scared the the analogy partly sort of scared them and also it meant that the them and also it meant that the them and also it meant that the government was really serious about uh government was really serious about uh government was really serious about uh dealing with them. So then in 1989 this dealing with them. So then in 1989 this dealing with them. So then in 1989 this protest the protests restart and there protest the protests restart and there protest the protests restart and there are variety of reasons why they can are variety of reasons why they can are variety of reasons why they can restart they the space for them students restart they the space for them students restart they the space for them students are thinking about doing something in are thinking about doing something in are thinking about doing something in 1989 it's a very resonant year 200th 1989 it's a very resonant year 200th 1989 it's a very resonant year 200th anniversary of the French Revolution anniversary of the French Revolution anniversary of the French Revolution people are thinking about that but more people are thinking about that but more people are thinking about that but more importantly it's the 70th anniversary of importantly it's the 70th anniversary of importantly it's the 70th anniversary of the biggest student movement in Chinese the biggest student movement in Chinese the biggest student movement in Chinese history the May 4th movement of history the May 4th movement of history the May 4th movement of 1919 and the May 4th movement had helped 1919 and the May 4th movement had helped 1919 and the May 4th movement had helped lay the groundwork for the Chinese lay the groundwork for the Chinese lay the groundwork for the Chinese Communist Party. Some member leading Communist Party. Some member leading Communist Party. Some member leading founders of it had been student founders of it had been student founders of it had been student activists then. It was an activists then. It was an activists then. It was an anti-imperialist movement, but it was anti-imperialist movement, but it was anti-imperialist movement, but it was also um a movement against bad also um a movement against bad also um a movement against bad government. Um and so the students government. Um and so the students government. Um and so the students thought, you know, the anniversary of thought, you know, the anniversary of thought, you know, the anniversary of that movement was always marked, that movement was always marked, that movement was always marked, commemorated in China and people took commemorated in China and people took commemorated in China and people took the ser the history seriously. people the ser the history seriously. people the ser the history seriously. people were reminded of what students did in were reminded of what students did in were reminded of what students did in the past. And so there there were sort the past. And so there there were sort the past. And so there there were sort of there were a lot of reasons why of there were a lot of reasons why of there were a lot of reasons why people were itching to do something. And people were itching to do something. And people were itching to do something. And then um a leader Pu Yao Bang who was then um a leader Pu Yao Bang who was then um a leader Pu Yao Bang who was associated with the more kind of associated with the more kind of associated with the more kind of reformist more liberalizing reformist more liberalizing reformist more liberalizing um group within the Chinese Communist um group within the Chinese Communist um group within the Chinese Communist Party. He had been stripped of a very

Party. He had been stripped of a very Party. He had been stripped of a very high office, demoted after taking partly high office, demoted after taking partly high office, demoted after taking partly taking a fairly light stance toward the taking a fairly light stance toward the taking a fairly light stance toward the 8687 protests. And so he was still a 8687 protests. And so he was still a 8687 protests. And so he was still a member of the government, but he was not member of the government, but he was not member of the government, but he was not as high up in power. He had been very as high up in power. He had been very as high up in power. He had been very high up. He had been sort of Dang high up. He had been sort of Dang high up. He had been sort of Dang Xiaoping's potential successor. And he Xiaoping's potential successor. And he Xiaoping's potential successor. And he dies unexpectedly, and there has to be a dies unexpectedly, and there has to be a dies unexpectedly, and there has to be a funeral for him because he dies still as funeral for him because he dies still as funeral for him because he dies still as an official. And the students take an official. And the students take an official. And the students take advantage of the opening of there having advantage of the opening of there having advantage of the opening of there having to be um having to be commemorations of to be um having to be commemorations of to be um having to be commemorations of his death. And they put up posters that his death. And they put up posters that his death. And they put up posters that basically say the wrong people are basically say the wrong people are basically say the wrong people are dying. Uh Hu Yaoang was younger than dying. Uh Hu Yaoang was younger than dying. Uh Hu Yaoang was younger than some of the more conservative members. some of the more conservative members. some of the more conservative members. They said so some people are dying too They said so some people are dying too They said so some people are dying too young. Some people are don't seem like young. Some people are don't seem like young. Some people are don't seem like they're ever going to die. And they so they're ever going to die. And they so they're ever going to die. And they so they begin these sorts of protests. This they begin these sorts of protests. This they begin these sorts of protests. This is in April of '89. And the government is in April of '89. And the government is in April of '89. And the government tries to sort of get the protest to stop tries to sort of get the protest to stop tries to sort of get the protest to stop quickly and they use the sort of same quickly and they use the sort of same quickly and they use the sort of same technique of they issue an editorial in technique of they issue an editorial in technique of they issue an editorial in People's Daily that says this is People's Daily that says this is People's Daily that says this is creating chaos which is a code term for creating chaos which is a code term for creating chaos which is a code term for take us back to the cultural revolution.

take us back to the cultural revolution. take us back to the cultural revolution. And this time the students say no you And this time the students say no you And this time the students say no you know we're just trying to show our know we're just trying to show our know we're just trying to show our patriotism. We believe that there's too patriotism. We believe that there's too patriotism. We believe that there's too much corruption and nepotism. there's much corruption and nepotism. there's much corruption and nepotism. there's not enough support for the more not enough support for the more not enough support for the more liberalizing um wing within the party liberalizing um wing within the party liberalizing um wing within the party and so they keep up the protests and and so they keep up the protests and and so they keep up the protests and there's a lot of frustration at this there's a lot of frustration at this there's a lot of frustration at this point. There also economic frustrations point. There also economic frustrations point. There also economic frustrations at this point. Um the economy is is at this point. Um the economy is is at this point. Um the economy is is improving because of the reforms but it improving because of the reforms but it improving because of the reforms but it seems that people with good government seems that people with good government seems that people with good government connections are getting rich um too connections are getting rich um too connections are getting rich um too easily and so it's there's sort of a easily and so it's there's sort of a easily and so it's there's sort of a sense of unfairness. The students are sense of unfairness. The students are sense of unfairness. The students are also really frustrated by the kind of also really frustrated by the kind of also really frustrated by the kind of macro managing of their private lives on macro managing of their private lives on macro managing of their private lives on campuses. So the protests at Tanaman campuses. So the protests at Tanaman campuses. So the protests at Tanaman Square and in plazas all around the Square and in plazas all around the Square and in plazas all around the country and other cities as well become country and other cities as well become country and other cities as well become this mix of things. It's an this mix of things. It's an this mix of things. It's an anti-corruption movement. It's a call anti-corruption movement. It's a call anti-corruption movement. It's a call for more democracy movement. It's a call for more democracy movement. It's a call for more democracy movement. It's a call for more freedom of speech movement. But for more freedom of speech movement. But for more freedom of speech movement. But it's also a kind of um has some it's also a kind of um has some it's also a kind of um has some counterculture elements that are like counterculture elements that are like counterculture elements that are like there rock concerts on the square. the there rock concerts on the square. the there rock concerts on the square. the most popular uh rock musician, Sue Jen, most popular uh rock musician, Sue Jen, most popular uh rock musician, Sue Jen, comes to the square and is um celebrated comes to the square and is um celebrated comes to the square and is um celebrated when he's there. There's a sense of kind when he's there. There's a sense of kind when he's there. There's a sense of kind of a variety of things rolled into one.

of a variety of things rolled into one. of a variety of things rolled into one. Um and I I I brought up how it sort of Um and I I I brought up how it sort of Um and I I I brought up how it sort of gets conflated with the movements to gets conflated with the movements to gets conflated with the movements to overthrow communism in the Eastern overthrow communism in the Eastern overthrow communism in the Eastern Block. It was actually in many ways, I Block. It was actually in many ways, I Block. It was actually in many ways, I think, more like something that happened think, more like something that happened think, more like something that happened in the Eastern Block 20 years earlier. in the Eastern Block 20 years earlier. in the Eastern Block 20 years earlier. It was more like Prague Spring and other It was more like Prague Spring and other It was more like Prague Spring and other 1968 protests in the communist block 1968 protests in the communist block 1968 protests in the communist block which was about moving toward socialism which was about moving toward socialism which was about moving toward socialism with a human face. More like trying to with a human face. More like trying to with a human face. More like trying to get the parties to power to reform get the parties to power to reform get the parties to power to reform rather than necessarily doing away with rather than necessarily doing away with rather than necessarily doing away with them. So there was a kind of disjuncture them. So there was a kind of disjuncture them. So there was a kind of disjuncture happened at the same time as moves to to happened at the same time as moves to to happened at the same time as moves to to end communism. But of course I said end communism. But of course I said end communism. But of course I said there was a possibility when all the there was a possibility when all the there was a possibility when all the protesters were on the square. seemed protesters were on the square. seemed protesters were on the square. seemed that for a time that this might be seen that for a time that this might be seen that for a time that this might be seen as an acceptable kind of movement as an acceptable kind of movement as an acceptable kind of movement movement to just have a kind of course movement to just have a kind of course movement to just have a kind of course correction but then there's also an correction but then there's also an correction but then there's also an internal struggle within the communist internal struggle within the communist internal struggle within the communist party leadership and clearly the people party leadership and clearly the people party leadership and clearly the people who are more political conservatives who are more political conservatives who are more political conservatives even if they believe in economic reform even if they believe in economic reform even if they believe in economic reform are clearly getting the upper hand and are clearly getting the upper hand and are clearly getting the upper hand and there this is not going to be tolerated there this is not going to be tolerated there this is not going to be tolerated and the students stay on the square when and the students stay on the square when and the students stay on the square when s signals are given to try to get them s signals are given to try to get them s signals are given to try to get them out. Students from around the country out. Students from around the country out. Students from around the country are pouring into to Beijing to join this are pouring into to Beijing to join this are pouring into to Beijing to join this movement. They don't want to end the movement. They don't want to end the movement. They don't want to end the movement when they've just arrived. So, movement when they've just arrived. So, movement when they've just arrived. So, it's actually one thing that keeps it it's actually one thing that keeps it it's actually one thing that keeps it going is new new um participants are going is new new um participants are going is new new um participants are coming from the provinces and even if coming from the provinces and even if coming from the provinces and even if some moderates want to leave the square,

some moderates want to leave the square, some moderates want to leave the square, people want to stay and then workers people want to stay and then workers people want to stay and then workers start joining in the movement as well start joining in the movement as well start joining in the movement as well and form a independent labor union. And and form a independent labor union. And and form a independent labor union. And that really the the Chinese Communist that really the the Chinese Communist that really the the Chinese Communist Party to a certain extent they might put Party to a certain extent they might put Party to a certain extent they might put up with student protesters, but they up with student protesters, but they up with student protesters, but they know from past experience that sometimes know from past experience that sometimes know from past experience that sometimes student protests lead to to members of student protests lead to to members of student protests lead to to members of other social classes joining them other social classes joining them other social classes joining them because they look up to students as sort because they look up to students as sort because they look up to students as sort of potential intellectual leaders of the of potential intellectual leaders of the of potential intellectual leaders of the country and admiration for scholars is country and admiration for scholars is country and admiration for scholars is part of this that turns people turn out part of this that turns people turn out part of this that turns people turn out when students protest. something very when students protest. something very when students protest. something very different from the American case where different from the American case where different from the American case where there's a kind of often suspicion of of there's a kind of often suspicion of of there's a kind of often suspicion of of student activists being necessarily on student activists being necessarily on student activists being necessarily on the same side as as everybody else. But the same side as as everybody else. But the same side as as everybody else. But in China, there had been from the in China, there had been from the in China, there had been from the history of the 20th century a sense of history of the 20th century a sense of history of the 20th century a sense of students as potentially a vanguard. So students as potentially a vanguard. So students as potentially a vanguard. So once there are um labor activists once there are um labor activists once there are um labor activists joining the movement then troops are joining the movement then troops are joining the movement then troops are called in and there's a massacre near called in and there's a massacre near called in and there's a massacre near Tanaman Square um on middle of the night Tanaman Square um on middle of the night Tanaman Square um on middle of the night of June 3rd and early uh June 4th and of June 3rd and early uh June 4th and of June 3rd and early uh June 4th and the the army just moves in and begins the the army just moves in and begins the the army just moves in and begins behaving very much like an army of behaving very much like an army of behaving very much like an army of occupation which is something the occupation which is something the occupation which is something the people's liberation of army is is people's liberation of army is is people's liberation of army is is supposed to be the one that saves China supposed to be the one that saves China supposed to be the one that saves China from foreign aggression and they're from foreign aggression and they're from foreign aggression and they're acting like an invading force. So this acting like an invading force. So this acting like an invading force. So this is where famously the tanks roll in. The is where famously the tanks roll in. The is where famously the tanks roll in. The tanks roll in. And I think also you have

tanks roll in. And I think also you have tanks roll in. And I think also you have that famous image of the man standing in that famous image of the man standing in that famous image of the man standing in front of the tank. That's a banned image front of the tank. That's a banned image front of the tank. That's a banned image within China. And I really think the within China. And I really think the within China. And I really think the reason why it's so considered so toxic reason why it's so considered so toxic reason why it's so considered so toxic by the regime is because it just shows by the regime is because it just shows by the regime is because it just shows the People's Liberation Army looking the People's Liberation Army looking the People's Liberation Army looking like an invading force, not like a like an invading force, not like a like an invading force, not like a stabilizing force. Can we talk about stabilizing force. Can we talk about stabilizing force. Can we talk about that? who's now called the tank man. The that? who's now called the tank man. The that? who's now called the tank man. The man that stood in front of the row of man that stood in front of the row of man that stood in front of the row of tanks. This was on June 5th in Tianaan tanks. This was on June 5th in Tianaan tanks. This was on June 5th in Tianaan Square. What do we know about him? What Square. What do we know about him? What Square. What do we know about him? What do you think about him? The symbolism. do you think about him? The symbolism. do you think about him? The symbolism. It's a it's an amazing symbol. Um, you It's a it's an amazing symbol. Um, you It's a it's an amazing symbol. Um, you know, he's on this boulevard near the know, he's on this boulevard near the know, he's on this boulevard near the square with this long line of tanks and square with this long line of tanks and square with this long line of tanks and it's unquestionably this act of it's unquestionably this act of it's unquestionably this act of incredible bravery. And there's some incredible bravery. And there's some incredible bravery. And there's some interesting things about it, some that interesting things about it, some that interesting things about it, some that are forgotten. One is that in the end he are forgotten. One is that in the end he are forgotten. One is that in the end he climbs up on the tank. Mhm. And the tank climbs up on the tank. Mhm. And the tank climbs up on the tank. Mhm. And the tank swerves, you know, it doesn't run him swerves, you know, it doesn't run him swerves, you know, it doesn't run him over. And the Chinese Communist Party over. And the Chinese Communist Party over. And the Chinese Communist Party initially showed video of this and said, initially showed video of this and said, initially showed video of this and said, "Look, the Western press is talking "Look, the Western press is talking "Look, the Western press is talking about how vicious we were, but look at about how vicious we were, but look at about how vicious we were, but look at the restraint. Look at this. He wasn't the restraint. Look at this. He wasn't the restraint. Look at this. He wasn't mowed down." And they tried this whole mowed down." And they tried this whole mowed down." And they tried this whole story with Tanaman initially of saying, story with Tanaman initially of saying, story with Tanaman initially of saying, "Look, the students were out of control.

"Look, the students were out of control. "Look, the students were out of control. This everybody should remember what This everybody should remember what This everybody should remember what happened during the cultural happened during the cultural happened during the cultural revolution." And the army showed revolution." And the army showed revolution." And the army showed restraint and there were a small number restraint and there were a small number restraint and there were a small number of soldiers who were actually burned of soldiers who were actually burned of soldiers who were actually burned alive in their in their tanks during alive in their in their tanks during alive in their in their tanks during once the massacre began. People got once the massacre began. People got once the massacre began. People got outraged and they attacked the soldiers. outraged and they attacked the soldiers. outraged and they attacked the soldiers. But by selective use of of footage, the But by selective use of of footage, the But by selective use of of footage, the communist party could say, "Look, communist party could say, "Look, communist party could say, "Look, actually look at this. The the heroes, actually look at this. The the heroes, actually look at this. The the heroes, the martyrs were these soldiers." the martyrs were these soldiers." the martyrs were these soldiers." And they try for the first months after And they try for the first months after And they try for the first months after it to to try to get this narrative to it to to try to get this narrative to it to to try to get this narrative to stick. They talk about Tanaman a lot. stick. They talk about Tanaman a lot. stick. They talk about Tanaman a lot. They talk about these things. They show They talk about these things. They show They talk about these things. They show images of the Tankman. The problem with images of the Tankman. The problem with images of the Tankman. The problem with it is that lots and lots of people it is that lots and lots of people it is that lots and lots of people around Beijing had seen what happened around Beijing had seen what happened around Beijing had seen what happened and knew that in fact there had first and knew that in fact there had first and knew that in fact there had first been the firing on unarmed civilians been the firing on unarmed civilians been the firing on unarmed civilians with automatic weapons and then and with automatic weapons and then and with automatic weapons and then and there had been many many there had been many many there had been many many people some students but a lot of people some students but a lot of people some students but a lot of ordinary Beijing Beijing residents and ordinary Beijing Beijing residents and ordinary Beijing Beijing residents and workers who were just mowed down. So workers who were just mowed down. So workers who were just mowed down. So lots of people knew somebody who had lots of people knew somebody who had lots of people knew somebody who had been killed. So that story just didn't been killed. So that story just didn't been killed. So that story just didn't work. And then I work. And then I work. And then I think the the the claim had to be made think the the the claim had to be made think the the the claim had to be made to try to try to suppress discussion of to try to try to suppress discussion of to try to try to suppress discussion of the event and particularly to dis to the event and particularly to dis to the event and particularly to dis to repress that visual imagery that was repress that visual imagery that was repress that visual imagery that was that image of the man in front of a line that image of the man in front of a line that image of the man in front of a line of tanks. Whatever the tanks did to him of tanks. Whatever the tanks did to him of tanks. Whatever the tanks did to him or not, the main takeaway from it would or not, the main takeaway from it would or not, the main takeaway from it would be this idea that there were lines of

be this idea that there were lines of be this idea that there were lines of tanks in a city. that was um that the tanks in a city. that was um that the tanks in a city. that was um that the the image was of the government as the image was of the government as the image was of the government as having lost the mandate to rule and they having lost the mandate to rule and they having lost the mandate to rule and they really didn't want to have that image um really didn't want to have that image um really didn't want to have that image um out there in the out there in the out there in the world. Yeah, we're watching the video world. Yeah, we're watching the video world. Yeah, we're watching the video now. He's got what like grocery bags in now. He's got what like grocery bags in now. He's got what like grocery bags in his hands. It's such a symbolic I've had his hands. It's such a symbolic I've had his hands. It's such a symbolic I've had enough like that kind of statement. enough like that kind of statement. enough like that kind of statement. Yeah. And it's probably not a student, Yeah. And it's probably not a student, Yeah. And it's probably not a student, you know, it's often described as a you know, it's often described as a you know, it's often described as a student, but he probably was um a worker student, but he probably was um a worker student, but he probably was um a worker and it is it is a powerful powerful and it is it is a powerful powerful and it is it is a powerful powerful image of image of image of bravery. And you know, I brought up the bravery. And you know, I brought up the bravery. And you know, I brought up the 1968 parallel for Eastern and Central 1968 parallel for Eastern and Central 1968 parallel for Eastern and Central Europe. There was actually a very Europe. There was actually a very Europe. There was actually a very powerful photograph of a man bearing his powerful photograph of a man bearing his powerful photograph of a man bearing his chest in front of a tank in Bratislava chest in front of a tank in Bratislava chest in front of a tank in Bratislava during um what we think of as Prague during um what we think of as Prague during um what we think of as Prague Spring. That was a famous image of Spring. That was a famous image of Spring. That was a famous image of bravery against tanks. And in bravery against tanks. And in bravery against tanks. And in 1968 in Czechoslovakia, then still 1968 in Czechoslovakia, then still 1968 in Czechoslovakia, then still Czechoslovakia, the tanks that rolled in Czechoslovakia, the tanks that rolled in Czechoslovakia, the tanks that rolled in were Soviet tanks sent down there. And were Soviet tanks sent down there. And were Soviet tanks sent down there. And so, not that people would know, but that so, not that people would know, but that so, not that people would know, but that was an image, you know, what was so was an image, you know, what was so was an image, you know, what was so powerful in that was saying, "We're not powerful in that was saying, "We're not powerful in that was saying, "We're not going to put up with this invasion."

going to put up with this invasion." going to put up with this invasion." Again, I think you have the people's Again, I think you have the people's Again, I think you have the people's liberation of army army looking like an liberation of army army looking like an liberation of army army looking like an invading force and that's what um that's invading force and that's what um that's invading force and that's what um that's what the Chinese Communist Party in a what the Chinese Communist Party in a what the Chinese Communist Party in a sense sense sense can't can't deal with now even though can't can't deal with now even though can't can't deal with now even though sometimes they could tell a story about sometimes they could tell a story about sometimes they could tell a story about 1989 and they do tell a version of this 1989 and they do tell a version of this 1989 and they do tell a version of this and some people believe this I think is and some people believe this I think is and some people believe this I think is that in that in that in 1989 China went one route of not um not 1989 China went one route of not um not 1989 China went one route of not um not having the communist party dramatic ally having the communist party dramatic ally having the communist party dramatic ally change or relinquish control and the change or relinquish control and the change or relinquish control and the Soviet Union and the former Soviet Soviet Union and the former Soviet Soviet Union and the former Soviet states went another and you could say states went another and you could say states went another and you could say well look and after 1989 the Chinese well look and after 1989 the Chinese well look and after 1989 the Chinese economy bmed life got better for people economy bmed life got better for people economy bmed life got better for people in China life got really terrible for a in China life got really terrible for a in China life got really terrible for a lot of people in the former Soviet lot of people in the former Soviet lot of people in the former Soviet blocks maybe we actually maybe this was blocks maybe we actually maybe this was blocks maybe we actually maybe this was the right way to go and you can make the right way to go and you can make the right way to go and you can make that kind of argument but if you show that kind of argument but if you show that kind of argument but if you show the tanks and the man in front of the the tanks and the man in front of the the tanks and the man in front of the tanks you you you just have a different tanks you you you just have a different tanks you you you just have a different kind of image of heroism It's one of my kind of image of heroism It's one of my kind of image of heroism It's one of my favorite photographs or snapshots ever favorite photographs or snapshots ever favorite photographs or snapshots ever taken, videos ever taken. So, I taken, videos ever taken. So, I taken, videos ever taken. So, I apologize if we linger on it. Sometimes apologize if we linger on it. Sometimes apologize if we linger on it. Sometimes you don't understand the symbolic power you don't understand the symbolic power you don't understand the symbolic power of an of an of an image until afterwards. And perhaps image until afterwards. And perhaps image until afterwards. And perhaps that's what the Chinese government that's what the Chinese government that's what the Chinese government didn't quite understand. They lost the didn't quite understand. They lost the didn't quite understand. They lost the information war, the meme war. So, I I information war, the meme war. So, I I information war, the meme war. So, I I have to ask, what do you think was going have to ask, what do you think was going have to ask, what do you think was going through that man's head? Was it a heroic through that man's head? Was it a heroic through that man's head? Was it a heroic statement? Was it a purely primal

statement? Was it a purely primal statement? Was it a purely primal guttural like I've had enough? It's so guttural like I've had enough? It's so guttural like I've had enough? It's so interesting to just speculate and we interesting to just speculate and we interesting to just speculate and we just don't know because you know he was just don't know because you know he was just don't know because you know he was never able to be interviewed afterwards. never able to be interviewed afterwards. never able to be interviewed afterwards. But I think your emphasis on patriotism But I think your emphasis on patriotism But I think your emphasis on patriotism is really important because one of the is really important because one of the is really important because one of the students main demands students main demands students main demands was then I think it might have been the was then I think it might have been the was then I think it might have been the thing that would have gotten them to thing that would have gotten them to thing that would have gotten them to leave the square would have been to say leave the square would have been to say leave the square would have been to say you we want this to be acknowledged as a you we want this to be acknowledged as a you we want this to be acknowledged as a patriotic that our goals are patriotic. patriotic that our goals are patriotic. patriotic that our goals are patriotic. We're not here to to take China back We're not here to to take China back We're not here to to take China back into the cultural revolution. We're here into the cultural revolution. We're here into the cultural revolution. We're here we're here to express our love for the we're here to express our love for the we're here to express our love for the country if it goes in in the right way. country if it goes in in the right way. country if it goes in in the right way. So will you admit that? And you you So will you admit that? And you you So will you admit that? And you you mentioned about the power of the image mentioned about the power of the image mentioned about the power of the image and I do think the Chinese Communist and I do think the Chinese Communist and I do think the Chinese Communist Party learned something to have taken to Party learned something to have taken to Party learned something to have taken to heart the power of the image after that heart the power of the image after that heart the power of the image after that because we saw this in um but when there because we saw this in um but when there because we saw this in um but when there were protests in Hong Kong, the were protests in Hong Kong, the were protests in Hong Kong, the government on the mainland really wanted government on the mainland really wanted government on the mainland really wanted to tell a story there of you know crowds to tell a story there of you know crowds to tell a story there of you know crowds out of control. And initially there were out of control. And initially there were out of control. And initially there were in 2014 and again in initially in 2019 in 2014 and again in initially in 2019 in 2014 and again in initially in 2019 there were very orderly crowds and it it there were very orderly crowds and it it there were very orderly crowds and it it it had trouble with that story. So they it had trouble with that story. So they it had trouble with that story. So they tried very hard to ban images of tried very hard to ban images of tried very hard to ban images of peaceful protests until there were some peaceful protests until there were some peaceful protests until there were some incidents as there almost always are of incidents as there almost always are of incidents as there almost always are of uh violence by crowds and then they uh violence by crowds and then they uh violence by crowds and then they would show those images over and over would show those images over and over would show those images over and over again. They also worked very hard when again. They also worked very hard when again. They also worked very hard when Hong Kong protests began in the 2010s to Hong Kong protests began in the 2010s to Hong Kong protests began in the 2010s to try very hard to avoid any use of try very hard to avoid any use of try very hard to avoid any use of soldiers to repress them. It was all the

soldiers to repress them. It was all the soldiers to repress them. It was all the police and they tried very hard and police and they tried very hard and police and they tried very hard and managed to success because the the managed to success because the the managed to success because the the western press was often saying will this western press was often saying will this western press was often saying will this be another tian men? Will there be a be another tian men? Will there be a be another tian men? Will there be a massacre or will there be soldiers on massacre or will there be soldiers on massacre or will there be soldiers on the streets? the streets? the streets? The movements in Hong Kong were The movements in Hong Kong were The movements in Hong Kong were suppressed without the use of um of suppressed without the use of um of suppressed without the use of um of shooting to kill on the streets. They shooting to kill on the streets. They shooting to kill on the streets. They were shooting to to wound. Um there was were shooting to to wound. Um there was were shooting to to wound. Um there was bean bags shot. There were rubber bean bags shot. There were rubber bean bags shot. There were rubber bullets. There was enormous amounts of bullets. There was enormous amounts of bullets. There was enormous amounts of tear gas. There was even tear gas left tear gas. There was even tear gas left tear gas. There was even tear gas left let fly inside subway stations in 2019. let fly inside subway stations in 2019. let fly inside subway stations in 2019. And all these things are really And all these things are really And all these things are really brutalizing, but they don't make the brutalizing, but they don't make the brutalizing, but they don't make the kind of images that sear in the mind the kind of images that sear in the mind the kind of images that sear in the mind the way something like the Tanaman tankman way something like the Tanaman tankman way something like the Tanaman tankman image or the image of a Vietnamese woman image or the image of a Vietnamese woman image or the image of a Vietnamese woman being burned by Napal young woman that being burned by Napal young woman that being burned by Napal young woman that became another of the iconic images became another of the iconic images became another of the iconic images during Vietnam War. Those images really during Vietnam War. Those images really during Vietnam War. Those images really can um have an extraordinary power and I can um have an extraordinary power and I can um have an extraordinary power and I think the Chinese Communist Party is now think the Chinese Communist Party is now think the Chinese Communist Party is now aware of that. There are no really aware of that. There are no really aware of that. There are no really gripping. There are very few photographs gripping. There are very few photographs gripping. There are very few photographs allowed of the Shinjang um extralegal allowed of the Shinjang um extralegal allowed of the Shinjang um extralegal detention camps. There very little very detention camps. There very little very detention camps. There very little very little photo the there is an awareness little photo the there is an awareness little photo the there is an awareness of how much uh power a photograph of a of how much uh power a photograph of a of how much uh power a photograph of a certain type can have. So nobody knows certain type can have. So nobody knows certain type can have. So nobody knows what happened to the tank man? No. What what happened to the tank man? No. What what happened to the tank man? No. What do you think happened to the tank man? I do you think happened to the tank man? I do you think happened to the tank man? I assume he was killed. Killed? I assume

assume he was killed. Killed? I assume assume he was killed. Killed? I assume he was just disappeared. It's he was just disappeared. It's he was just disappeared. It's interesting because very often figures interesting because very often figures interesting because very often figures are made an example of in one way or are made an example of in one way or are made an example of in one way or another. I mean Leo Shao wasn't uh was another. I mean Leo Shao wasn't uh was another. I mean Leo Shao wasn't uh was imprisoned and not allowed to you know imprisoned and not allowed to you know imprisoned and not allowed to you know get enough medical care so you can talk get enough medical care so you can talk get enough medical care so you can talk about him having you know died earlier about him having you know died earlier about him having you know died earlier than he should have. But than he should have. But than he should have. But there there's been relatively few of there there's been relatively few of there there's been relatively few of like for political crimes recently like for political crimes recently like for political crimes recently sentencing to death and things like sentencing to death and things like sentencing to death and things like that. It's much more just remove them, that. It's much more just remove them, that. It's much more just remove them, imprison them. But the tank man, there imprison them. But the tank man, there imprison them. But the tank man, there was never a trial. There was never even was never a trial. There was never even was never a trial. There was never even a trial that was a was one that you knew a trial that was a was one that you knew a trial that was a was one that you knew what the result would be, which there what the result would be, which there what the result would be, which there was for Leo Shao and others. Not even a was for Leo Shao and others. Not even a was for Leo Shao and others. Not even a hidden trial, but simply simply hidden trial, but simply simply hidden trial, but simply simply disappeared. And there's been somebody disappeared. And there's been somebody disappeared. And there's been somebody who's like another figure like this who's like another figure like this who's like another figure like this who's disappeared. Um a couple of years who's disappeared. Um a couple of years who's disappeared. Um a couple of years ago in Beijing there was a lone man who ago in Beijing there was a lone man who ago in Beijing there was a lone man who put up a banner on a bridge uh Satong put up a banner on a bridge uh Satong put up a banner on a bridge uh Satong Bridge in Beijing and it was Bridge in Beijing and it was Bridge in Beijing and it was extraordinary. It was it had extraordinary. It was it had extraordinary. It was it had denunciations of the direction Xiinping denunciations of the direction Xiinping denunciations of the direction Xiinping was taking the country. It was was taking the country. It was was taking the country. It was denunciation of of co policies but also denunciation of of co policies but also denunciation of of co policies but also of dictatorial rule and the banner of dictatorial rule and the banner of dictatorial rule and the banner somehow he managed to have it up and get somehow he managed to have it up and get somehow he managed to have it up and get it long enough to be filmed and to draw it long enough to be filmed and to draw it long enough to be filmed and to draw attention and the film to circulate.

attention and the film to circulate. attention and the film to circulate. Again, another image of the power of Again, another image of the power of Again, another image of the power of images and he's disappeared and there images and he's disappeared and there images and he's disappeared and there hasn't been a show trial or even a hasn't been a show trial or even a hasn't been a show trial or even a secret trial. And again, you know, we secret trial. And again, you know, we secret trial. And again, you know, we don't know if he's still alive, but don't know if he's still alive, but don't know if he's still alive, but these are cases where I think the these are cases where I think the these are cases where I think the Chinese Communist Party really doesn't Chinese Communist Party really doesn't Chinese Communist Party really doesn't want a competing story out there. They want a competing story out there. They want a competing story out there. They don't want somebody to be able to answer don't want somebody to be able to answer don't want somebody to be able to answer what he was thinking. How much what he was thinking. How much what he was thinking. How much censorship is there in modern day China censorship is there in modern day China censorship is there in modern day China by the Chinese government? So, you know, by the Chinese government? So, you know, by the Chinese government? So, you know, there's a lot of censorship. My favorite there's a lot of censorship. My favorite there's a lot of censorship. My favorite book about one of my favorite books book about one of my favorite books book about one of my favorite books about Chinese censorship, Margaret about Chinese censorship, Margaret about Chinese censorship, Margaret Roberts, where she talks about there are Roberts, where she talks about there are Roberts, where she talks about there are three different ways that the government three different ways that the government three different ways that the government can control the stories. And she says can control the stories. And she says can control the stories. And she says there's fear, which is this kind of there's fear, which is this kind of there's fear, which is this kind of direct censorship thing of like banning direct censorship thing of like banning direct censorship thing of like banning things. But there's also friction, which things. But there's also friction, which things. But there's also friction, which she says she has three Fs, fear, she says she has three Fs, fear, she says she has three Fs, fear, friction, and flooding. And she says friction, and flooding. And she says friction, and flooding. And she says they're all important. And I think this they're all important. And I think this they're all important. And I think this is true not just of China but in other is true not just of China but in other is true not just of China but in other settings too. So what friction means is settings too. So what friction means is settings too. So what friction means is you just make it harder for people to you just make it harder for people to you just make it harder for people to get answers or get information that you get answers or get information that you get answers or get information that you don't want them to get even though you don't want them to get even though you don't want them to get even though you know that some people will get it. You know that some people will get it. You know that some people will get it. You just make it that the easiest way the just make it that the easiest way the just make it that the easiest way the the first answer you'll get through a the first answer you'll get through a the first answer you'll get through a search. Mhm. So, a lot of, you know, search. Mhm. So, a lot of, you know, search. Mhm. So, a lot of, you know, techsavvy or globally minded techsavvy or globally minded techsavvy or globally minded um tapped in Chinese will use people um tapped in Chinese will use people um tapped in Chinese will use people will use a VPN to jump over the will use a VPN to jump over the will use a VPN to jump over the firewall, but it's work. The internet firewall, but it's work. The internet firewall, but it's work. The internet moves slower. You have to keep updating

moves slower. You have to keep updating moves slower. You have to keep updating your VPN. So, you just create friction your VPN. So, you just create friction your VPN. So, you just create friction so that okay, some people will find this so that okay, some people will find this so that okay, some people will find this out and then flooding. you just fill the out and then flooding. you just fill the out and then flooding. you just fill the airwaves and the media with versions of airwaves and the media with versions of airwaves and the media with versions of the stories that you want the people to the stories that you want the people to the stories that you want the people to believe. So all those kind of exist and believe. So all those kind of exist and believe. So all those kind of exist and in operation and I think the the fear is in operation and I think the the fear is in operation and I think the the fear is the easiest side to say of what's the easiest side to say of what's the easiest side to say of what's blocked. So I'm always interested in blocked. So I'm always interested in blocked. So I'm always interested in things things things that it's things that you would expect that it's things that you would expect that it's things that you would expect to be censored that aren't censored. Um to be censored that aren't censored. Um to be censored that aren't censored. Um you can read all sorts of things in you can read all sorts of things in you can read all sorts of things in China about totalitarian. You can read China about totalitarian. You can read China about totalitarian. You can read Hannah Rant's uh book on Hannah Rant's uh book on Hannah Rant's uh book on totalitarianism, which would be the kind totalitarianism, which would be the kind totalitarianism, which would be the kind of thing you just, you know, you're not of thing you just, you know, you're not of thing you just, you know, you're not supposed to be able to read that in a supposed to be able to read that in a supposed to be able to read that in a somewhat totalitarian uh state or a somewhat totalitarian uh state or a somewhat totalitarian uh state or a dictatorial state if anything, but it's dictatorial state if anything, but it's dictatorial state if anything, but it's not specifically about China. And not specifically about China. And not specifically about China. And so censorship is most most restrictive so censorship is most most restrictive so censorship is most most restrictive when it's things that are actually about when it's things that are actually about when it's things that are actually about China. Things about leaders of the China. Things about leaders of the China. Things about leaders of the Chinese Communist Party, there's intense Chinese Communist Party, there's intense Chinese Communist Party, there's intense kind of censorship of that. um and kind of censorship of that. um and kind of censorship of that. um and certain events in that way, but a sort certain events in that way, but a sort certain events in that way, but a sort of like something through allegory, of like something through allegory, of like something through allegory, something through something through something through um imagining a place that looks a lot um imagining a place that looks a lot um imagining a place that looks a lot like a communist party ruled state so like a communist party ruled state so like a communist party ruled state so that people are going to read it. There that people are going to read it. There that people are going to read it. There were things that were banned throughout were things that were banned throughout were things that were banned throughout up until like the very last period of up until like the very last period of up until like the very last period of Gorbachev's rule. Bathing's banned in Gorbachev's rule. Bathing's banned in Gorbachev's rule. Bathing's banned in the Soviet Union that are available in the Soviet Union that are available in the Soviet Union that are available in Chinese bookstores. You can buy 1984 in

Chinese bookstores. You can buy 1984 in Chinese bookstores. You can buy 1984 in a Chinese bookstore. you've been able to a Chinese bookstore. you've been able to a Chinese bookstore. you've been able to since 1985. since 1985. since 1985. um you can buy again it's not about um you can buy again it's not about um you can buy again it's not about China and actually for some people China and actually for some people China and actually for some people within um China in the mid1 within um China in the mid1 within um China in the mid1 1980s where they focused on the part of 1980s where they focused on the part of 1980s where they focused on the part of 1984 that's like the two minutes of hate 1984 that's like the two minutes of hate 1984 that's like the two minutes of hate these rituals of denunciation of people these rituals of denunciation of people these rituals of denunciation of people for some people in China it seemed like for some people in China it seemed like for some people in China it seemed like it was about their past not about their it was about their past not about their it was about their past not about their present and then by the '9s 1984 is a present and then by the '9s 1984 is a present and then by the '9s 1984 is a very bleak culture of scarcity a place very bleak culture of scarcity a place very bleak culture of scarcity a place where people just aren't having fun and where people just aren't having fun and where people just aren't having fun and people said like you could read Some people said like you could read Some people said like you could read Some people would read 1984 and say, "Look, people would read 1984 and say, "Look, people would read 1984 and say, "Look, this is this is the world we're living this is this is the world we're living this is this is the world we're living in. It's a big brother state." But in. It's a big brother state." But in. It's a big brother state." But others said, "Well, that has some others said, "Well, that has some others said, "Well, that has some similarities to us, but you know, he similarities to us, but you know, he similarities to us, but you know, he wasn't talking about a country like wasn't talking about a country like wasn't talking about a country like ours. Look, we've got supermarkets, we ours. Look, we've got supermarkets, we ours. Look, we've got supermarkets, we got McDonald's. I mean, this is not, you got McDonald's. I mean, this is not, you got McDonald's. I mean, this is not, you know, we got fast trains, we got things know, we got fast trains, we got things know, we got fast trains, we got things are we're living so much better in some are we're living so much better in some are we're living so much better in some ways than our grandparents did. And this ways than our grandparents did. And this ways than our grandparents did. And this isn't like that bleak world he was isn't like that bleak world he was isn't like that bleak world he was imagining." Yeah. You've actually spoken imagining." Yeah. You've actually spoken imagining." Yeah. You've actually spoken about and described China as more akin about and described China as more akin about and described China as more akin to the dystopian world of Brave New to the dystopian world of Brave New to the dystopian world of Brave New World than World than World than 1984, which is really interesting to 1984, which is really interesting to 1984, which is really interesting to think about. I think about that a lot.

think about. I think about that a lot. think about. I think about that a lot. I've recently reread over the past I've recently reread over the past I've recently reread over the past couple years. We read Brave New World a couple years. We read Brave New World a couple years. We read Brave New World a couple of times and also 1984. It does couple of times and also 1984. It does couple of times and also 1984. It does seem that the 21st century might be more seem that the 21st century might be more seem that the 21st century might be more defined to the degree it is dystopian defined to the degree it is dystopian defined to the degree it is dystopian any of the nations are by Brave New any of the nations are by Brave New any of the nations are by Brave New World and by 1984. There are mixed World and by 1984. There are mixed World and by 1984. There are mixed elements. I think there are moments when elements. I think there are moments when elements. I think there are moments when it can seem more more one than the other it can seem more more one than the other it can seem more more one than the other and there can be parts of the same and there can be parts of the same and there can be parts of the same country that seem more one than the country that seem more one than the country that seem more one than the other. I think um and if we just think other. I think um and if we just think other. I think um and if we just think about control through distraction about control through distraction about control through distraction and playing to your sense of pleasure and playing to your sense of pleasure and playing to your sense of pleasure and one thing that people forget and one thing that people forget and one thing that people forget sometimes or don't know is that Aldis sometimes or don't know is that Aldis sometimes or don't know is that Aldis Suxy who wrote Brave New World taught Suxy who wrote Brave New World taught Suxy who wrote Brave New World taught Eric Blair who became George Orwell when Eric Blair who became George Orwell when Eric Blair who became George Orwell when he was a student at Eden and they were he was a student at Eden and they were he was a student at Eden and they were sort of rivals and in fact in 1949 sort of rivals and in fact in 1949 sort of rivals and in fact in 1949 um Orwell sent his former teacher a copy um Orwell sent his former teacher a copy um Orwell sent his former teacher a copy of 1984 and said, you know, look, I've of 1984 and said, you know, look, I've of 1984 and said, you know, look, I've written this basically, it's kind of written this basically, it's kind of written this basically, it's kind of almost a little edible, like I've almost a little edible, like I've almost a little edible, like I've written this book that displaces yours.

written this book that displaces yours. written this book that displaces yours. He didn't say that. He just said, I He didn't say that. He just said, I He didn't say that. He just said, I wanted you to have this. But he had wanted you to have this. But he had wanted you to have this. But he had criticized Brave New World and reviews criticized Brave New World and reviews criticized Brave New World and reviews as as as like not having having imagined a world like not having having imagined a world like not having having imagined a world of capitalism run wild like before of capitalism run wild like before of capitalism run wild like before realizing the kind of totalitarian realizing the kind of totalitarian realizing the kind of totalitarian threats of the middle of the 20th threats of the middle of the 20th threats of the middle of the 20th century. But Huxley wrote Orwell a century. But Huxley wrote Orwell a century. But Huxley wrote Orwell a letter in October of 1949, same month letter in October of 1949, same month letter in October of 1949, same month the Communist Party took control in the Communist Party took control in the Communist Party took control in China. Not that he mentions China, and China. Not that he mentions China, and China. Not that he mentions China, and he just said, you know, it's a great he just said, you know, it's a great he just said, you know, it's a great book and everything, but I think the book and everything, but I think the book and everything, but I think the dictators of the future will find less dictators of the future will find less dictators of the future will find less arduous ways to keep control over the arduous ways to keep control over the arduous ways to keep control over the population. Basically saying more like population. Basically saying more like population. Basically saying more like what was in my book than in yours. what was in my book than in yours. what was in my book than in yours. I have to say I think I have to say I think I have to say I think Huxley might be really on to something Huxley might be really on to something Huxley might be really on to something there. truly a visionary. Although to there. truly a visionary. Although to there. truly a visionary. Although to give points to Orwell, I do think as far give points to Orwell, I do think as far give points to Orwell, I do think as far as just a as just a as just a philosophical work of philosophical work of philosophical work of fiction, 1984 is a better book because fiction, 1984 is a better book because fiction, 1984 is a better book because uh Brave New World does not quite uh Brave New World does not quite uh Brave New World does not quite construct the philosophical message construct the philosophical message construct the philosophical message thoroughly because 1984 contains many thoroughly because 1984 contains many thoroughly because 1984 contains many very clearly, very poetically defined very clearly, very poetically defined very clearly, very poetically defined elements of a totalitarian regime. Oh, elements of a totalitarian regime. Oh, elements of a totalitarian regime. Oh, and the dissection of language is just and the dissection of language is just and the dissection of language is just so amazing. No, I think you've got a so amazing. No, I think you've got a so amazing. No, I think you've got a point there, and I went back and reread point there, and I went back and reread point there, and I went back and reread Brave New World, and it's it's Brave New World, and it's it's Brave New World, and it's it's fascinating, but it it's very it's very fascinating, but it it's very it's very fascinating, but it it's very it's very messy. Yeah. I think there's a clarity messy. Yeah. I think there's a clarity messy. Yeah. I think there's a clarity to to Orwell's 1984. There's a clarity to to Orwell's 1984. There's a clarity to to Orwell's 1984. There's a clarity to Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale.

to Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale. to Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale. Similarly, the the the construction of Similarly, the the the construction of Similarly, the the the construction of the elements, and she was a big fan of the elements, and she was a big fan of the elements, and she was a big fan of both um 1984 and Brave New World. So it both um 1984 and Brave New World. So it both um 1984 and Brave New World. So it there there's a way they they go there there's a way they they go there there's a way they they go forward. But you know there was a kind forward. But you know there was a kind forward. But you know there was a kind of it's not exactly a sequel but or of it's not exactly a sequel but or of it's not exactly a sequel but or Huxley did write something called Brave Huxley did write something called Brave Huxley did write something called Brave New World Revisited. Yes, he did. In the New World Revisited. Yes, he did. In the New World Revisited. Yes, he did. In the 50s and he kind of said actually it 50s and he kind of said actually it 50s and he kind of said actually it seems and he mentions China there. He seems and he mentions China there. He seems and he mentions China there. He says that in Ma's China they're kind of says that in Ma's China they're kind of says that in Ma's China they're kind of combining the two things of this. And I combining the two things of this. And I combining the two things of this. And I I'm really fascinated by that because I'm really fascinated by that because I'm really fascinated by that because they published in China um on the they published in China um on the they published in China um on the Chinese mainland. It was published in Chinese mainland. It was published in Chinese mainland. It was published in Taiwan and Hong Kong too. It's called Taiwan and Hong Kong too. It's called Taiwan and Hong Kong too. It's called the dystopian trilogy and it's a box set the dystopian trilogy and it's a box set the dystopian trilogy and it's a box set where you have Ziaten's Wii who in that where you have Ziaten's Wii who in that where you have Ziaten's Wii who in that inspired both Orwell and Huxley to some inspired both Orwell and Huxley to some inspired both Orwell and Huxley to some extent. Uh that's one book and then extent. Uh that's one book and then extent. Uh that's one book and then there's Animal Farm in 1984 is a second there's Animal Farm in 1984 is a second there's Animal Farm in 1984 is a second book and then the third volume is book and then the third volume is book and then the third volume is Huxley's Brave New World and Brave New Huxley's Brave New World and Brave New Huxley's Brave New World and Brave New World Revisited and it was published in World Revisited and it was published in World Revisited and it was published in complex characters. You can buy You complex characters. You can buy You complex characters. You can buy You could buy it in Hong Kong, but I could buy it in Hong Kong, but I could buy it in Hong Kong, but I compared it to the book you can buy on compared it to the book you can buy on compared it to the book you can buy on the mainland. And it's all the same the mainland. And it's all the same the mainland. And it's all the same except the parts in Brave New World except the parts in Brave New World except the parts in Brave New World Revisited that refer to China are Revisited that refer to China are Revisited that refer to China are scalpled out. And this, I think, shows scalpled out. And this, I think, shows scalpled out. And this, I think, shows the subtlety of the censorship system.

the subtlety of the censorship system. the subtlety of the censorship system. You can buy these books and you can read You can buy these books and you can read You can buy these books and you can read about them, but the parts that's that about them, but the parts that's that about them, but the parts that's that that in that really show you how to that in that really show you how to that in that really show you how to connect the dots that gets that's taken connect the dots that gets that's taken connect the dots that gets that's taken out. And I do think the brave new world out. And I do think the brave new world out. And I do think the brave new world side of things I I think with China I side of things I I think with China I side of things I I think with China I was feeling it was definitely moving was feeling it was definitely moving was feeling it was definitely moving more toward brave new world except Tibet more toward brave new world except Tibet more toward brave new world except Tibet and Shinjang being more the crude boot and Shinjang being more the crude boot and Shinjang being more the crude boot on the face 1984 style of control. But on the face 1984 style of control. But on the face 1984 style of control. But then during the COVID lockdowns when then during the COVID lockdowns when then during the COVID lockdowns when people were being so intensely monitored people were being so intensely monitored people were being so intensely monitored and controlled, even places like and controlled, even places like and controlled, even places like Shanghai that it seemed much more the Shanghai that it seemed much more the Shanghai that it seemed much more the brave new world kind of style had their brave new world kind of style had their brave new world kind of style had their Orwellian moment. So you have it now I Orwellian moment. So you have it now I Orwellian moment. So you have it now I think it's you know there are more 1984 think it's you know there are more 1984 think it's you know there are more 1984 more Brave New World parts of the more Brave New World parts of the more Brave New World parts of the country and there also more Brave New country and there also more Brave New country and there also more Brave New World more 1984 moments. I see why it World more 1984 moments. I see why it World more 1984 moments. I see why it could give a sense after you've could give a sense after you've could give a sense after you've thoroughly internalized the fear that thoroughly internalized the fear that thoroughly internalized the fear that you have complete freedom of speech. you have complete freedom of speech. you have complete freedom of speech. Just don't mention the government. So Just don't mention the government. So Just don't mention the government. So you could talk about totalitarianism, you could talk about totalitarianism, you could talk about totalitarianism, you could talk about the darkest aspects you could talk about the darkest aspects you could talk about the darkest aspects of human nature, just don't you can even of human nature, just don't you can even of human nature, just don't you can even talk about the government in a sort of talk about the government in a sort of talk about the government in a sort of metaphorical like poetic metaphorical like poetic metaphorical like poetic um way that's not directly linkable, but um way that's not directly linkable, but um way that's not directly linkable, but the moment you mention the government, the moment you mention the government, the moment you mention the government, it's like a dumb keyword search. It's it's like a dumb keyword search. It's it's like a dumb keyword search. It's yeah it's and and I think it's like one yeah it's and and I think it's like one yeah it's and and I think it's like one of these really good examples of how you of these really good examples of how you of these really good examples of how you know China's distinctive but it's it's know China's distinctive but it's it's know China's distinctive but it's it's it's not unique. You have other settings

it's not unique. You have other settings it's not unique. You have other settings where you have these like no-go zones where you have these like no-go zones where you have these like no-go zones that you learn. And one example is in that you learn. And one example is in that you learn. And one example is in Singapore you know there was this so Singapore you know there was this so Singapore you know there was this so National University of Singapore has a National University of Singapore has a National University of Singapore has a world-class history department but no world-class history department but no world-class history department but no Singapore historian in it. nobody who Singapore historian in it. nobody who Singapore historian in it. nobody who focuses on the history of Singapore focuses on the history of Singapore focuses on the history of Singapore because you know it's incredibly wide because you know it's incredibly wide because you know it's incredibly wide ranging what you can what you can do ranging what you can what you can do ranging what you can what you can do analyze but when you're actually talking analyze but when you're actually talking analyze but when you're actually talking about the family that's been most about the family that's been most about the family that's been most powerful in Singapore then it gets to be powerful in Singapore then it gets to be powerful in Singapore then it gets to be touchy in um Thailand which I've been touchy in um Thailand which I've been touchy in um Thailand which I've been working on recently you have this bl working on recently you have this bl working on recently you have this bl majeste um laws that make it very very majeste um laws that make it very very majeste um laws that make it very very dangerous to say certain kinds of things dangerous to say certain kinds of things dangerous to say certain kinds of things about the king. And so you in all of about the king. And so you in all of about the king. And so you in all of these settings you have to figure out these settings you have to figure out these settings you have to figure out ways to to work around it. And there's a ways to to work around it. And there's a ways to to work around it. And there's a um um there's a way in which you can say um um there's a way in which you can say um um there's a way in which you can say at the international the foreign at the international the foreign at the international the foreign correspondence clubs in different parts correspondence clubs in different parts correspondence clubs in different parts of Asia, you can have an event that's of Asia, you can have an event that's of Asia, you can have an event that's about the country one over that you can about the country one over that you can about the country one over that you can say basically anything you want, but if say basically anything you want, but if say basically anything you want, but if when it gets to the things in the place when it gets to the things in the place when it gets to the things in the place where you are, um you're you're it's where you are, um you're you're it's where you are, um you're you're it's touchy. I should give credit for that touchy. I should give credit for that touchy. I should give credit for that insight. Uh Shabbani Matani, who's insight. Uh Shabbani Matani, who's insight. Uh Shabbani Matani, who's written um uh co-wrote a very good book written um uh co-wrote a very good book written um uh co-wrote a very good book on Hong Kong among the braves, um she on Hong Kong among the braves, um she on Hong Kong among the braves, um she was talking about that that in Singapore was talking about that that in Singapore was talking about that that in Singapore at the foreign correspondence club, you at the foreign correspondence club, you at the foreign correspondence club, you could have an event on Hong Kong that could have an event on Hong Kong that could have an event on Hong Kong that could say all kinds of things that you could say all kinds of things that you could say all kinds of things that you couldn't say at the Hong Kong foreign couldn't say at the Hong Kong foreign couldn't say at the Hong Kong foreign correspondence club. But at the same

correspondence club. But at the same correspondence club. But at the same time when I saw her in Singapore, she time when I saw her in Singapore, she time when I saw her in Singapore, she said there was a Singapore refugee, a said there was a Singapore refugee, a said there was a Singapore refugee, a political refugee in Hong Kong who was political refugee in Hong Kong who was political refugee in Hong Kong who was giving a talk at the Hong Kong foreign giving a talk at the Hong Kong foreign giving a talk at the Hong Kong foreign correspondence club saying kinds of correspondence club saying kinds of correspondence club saying kinds of things that he couldn't say in things that he couldn't say in things that he couldn't say in Singapore. And in Thailand, I gave a Singapore. And in Thailand, I gave a Singapore. And in Thailand, I gave a talk at the foreign correspondence club. talk at the foreign correspondence club. talk at the foreign correspondence club. And then I went to hear a talk there And then I went to hear a talk there And then I went to hear a talk there because I was just curious about like because I was just curious about like because I was just curious about like what the culture in this foreign what the culture in this foreign what the culture in this foreign correspondence club. And there was correspondence club. And there was correspondence club. And there was somebody talking about human rights somebody talking about human rights somebody talking about human rights abuses in different parts of Southeast abuses in different parts of Southeast abuses in different parts of Southeast Asia, saying things very directly and Asia, saying things very directly and Asia, saying things very directly and then said, "And there are things going then said, "And there are things going then said, "And there are things going on in on in on in Thailand that we're not going to talk Thailand that we're not going to talk Thailand that we're not going to talk about." And there was this kind of yes, about." And there was this kind of yes, about." And there was this kind of yes, self-censorship can be a very powerful self-censorship can be a very powerful self-censorship can be a very powerful thing. One of the things thing. One of the things thing. One of the things I learned about all of this which is I learned about all of this which is I learned about all of this which is interesting I want to learn more is interesting I want to learn more is interesting I want to learn more is about the human psychology. The ability about the human psychology. The ability about the human psychology. The ability of the individual mind to of the individual mind to of the individual mind to compartmentalize things. It does seem compartmentalize things. It does seem compartmentalize things. It does seem like you could not live in a state of like you could not live in a state of like you could not live in a state of fear as long as you don't mention a fear as long as you don't mention a fear as long as you don't mention a particular topic. My intuition would be particular topic. My intuition would be particular topic. My intuition would be about the human mind. If there's about the human mind. If there's about the human mind. If there's anything you're afraid of talking about anything you're afraid of talking about anything you're afraid of talking about that fear will permeate through that fear will permeate through that fear will permeate through everything else. you would not be able everything else. you would not be able everything else. you would not be able to do great science, great exploration, to do great science, great exploration, to do great science, great exploration, great technology. And that that idea I great technology. And that that idea I great technology. And that that idea I think underpins the whole idea of think underpins the whole idea of think underpins the whole idea of freedom of speech why you don't want in freedom of speech why you don't want in freedom of speech why you don't want in the United States, you don't want to the United States, you don't want to the United States, you don't want to censor any even dangerous speech because censor any even dangerous speech because censor any even dangerous speech because that will permeate everything else. You that will permeate everything else. You that will permeate everything else. You won't be able to have great scientists.

won't be able to have great scientists. won't be able to have great scientists. You won't be able to have great You won't be able to have great You won't be able to have great journalists. You won't be able to have I journalists. You won't be able to have I journalists. You won't be able to have I don't know. And I mean I'm obviously don't know. And I mean I'm obviously don't know. And I mean I'm obviously biased towards America and I think you biased towards America and I think you biased towards America and I think you do need to have that fullon freedom of do need to have that fullon freedom of do need to have that fullon freedom of speech, but this is an interesting case speech, but this is an interesting case speech, but this is an interesting case study. Um, and that's actually something study. Um, and that's actually something study. Um, and that's actually something that you speak about that Mao if he were that you speak about that Mao if he were that you speak about that Mao if he were alive today and visited China would be alive today and visited China would be alive today and visited China would be quite quite quite surprised. Uh, can you give the uh Ning surprised. Uh, can you give the uh Ning surprised. Uh, can you give the uh Ning bookstore as an example? Can you just bookstore as an example? Can you just bookstore as an example? Can you just speak to this? If Ma visited China, speak to this? If Ma visited China, speak to this? If Ma visited China, let's let's go with that thought let's let's go with that thought let's let's go with that thought experiment. What would he recognize? experiment. What would he recognize? experiment. What would he recognize? What would he be surprised by? So I I What would he be surprised by? So I I What would he be surprised by? So I I wrote about I wrote about imagining a wrote about I wrote about imagining a wrote about I wrote about imagining a revivified Mao, you know, going to revivified Mao, you know, going to revivified Mao, you know, going to wandering this really cool Nanjing wandering this really cool Nanjing wandering this really cool Nanjing bookstore in the early 2000s and just bookstore in the early 2000s and just bookstore in the early 2000s and just being amazed at what you could read being amazed at what you could read being amazed at what you could read there and you know what what books were there and you know what what books were there and you know what what books were for sale and I I thought about how he for sale and I I thought about how he for sale and I I thought about how he he'd be like what what's going on, you he'd be like what what's going on, you he'd be like what what's going on, you know, is the Communist Party not in know, is the Communist Party not in know, is the Communist Party not in control? I mean, I've he talked about control? I mean, I've he talked about control? I mean, I've he talked about how art and politics needed to in some how art and politics needed to in some how art and politics needed to in some ways go together and you've got all ways go together and you've got all ways go together and you've got all these kind of things. He'd also be he these kind of things. He'd also be he these kind of things. He'd also be he also would have been shocked by all also would have been shocked by all also would have been shocked by all these there were all these books about these there were all these books about these there were all these books about like how to start your own cafe and bar like how to start your own cafe and bar like how to start your own cafe and bar and sort of celebrating and sort of celebrating and sort of celebrating entrepreneurship, how to get into entrepreneurship, how to get into entrepreneurship, how to get into Harvard. It's like, you know, all of Harvard. It's like, you know, all of Harvard. It's like, you know, all of these things just wouldn't compute from these things just wouldn't compute from these things just wouldn't compute from his time. Although I said it would his time. Although I said it would his time. Although I said it would actually maybe make him nostalgia for actually maybe make him nostalgia for actually maybe make him nostalgia for the time of his youth in the 1910s. He the time of his youth in the 1910s. He the time of his youth in the 1910s. He was a participant in the May Fourth was a participant in the May Fourth was a participant in the May Fourth Movement, which was a time of reading Movement, which was a time of reading Movement, which was a time of reading all over the world looking for the best all over the world looking for the best all over the world looking for the best ideas circulating. So he might say,

ideas circulating. So he might say, ideas circulating. So he might say, "Well, the teenage me would have really, "Well, the teenage me would have really, "Well, the teenage me would have really, really loved this." So some of the really loved this." So some of the really loved this." So some of the coolest bookstores, the things that I coolest bookstores, the things that I coolest bookstores, the things that I just was amazed could exist in the early just was amazed could exist in the early just was amazed could exist in the early 2000s. So, you can still read, you can 2000s. So, you can still read, you can 2000s. So, you can still read, you can still buy copies in 1984 and you can still buy copies in 1984 and you can still buy copies in 1984 and you can still get um some of these other things, still get um some of these other things, still get um some of these other things, but that was a time when more and more but that was a time when more and more but that was a time when more and more of those things were being translated of those things were being translated of those things were being translated fresh. I'm not sure you get permission fresh. I'm not sure you get permission fresh. I'm not sure you get permission to translate some of those things. Now, to translate some of those things. Now, to translate some of those things. Now, there's more of a sense of caution. there's more of a sense of caution. there's more of a sense of caution. And when some of those bookstores would And when some of those bookstores would And when some of those bookstores would also then hold events that would talk also then hold events that would talk also then hold events that would talk about the kinds of ideas that then take about the kinds of ideas that then take about the kinds of ideas that then take them to the next level and talk about them to the next level and talk about them to the next level and talk about the applicability the applicability the applicability uh to the situation in China. Some of uh to the situation in China. Some of uh to the situation in China. Some of those bookstores have have closed or those bookstores have have closed or those bookstores have have closed or have had to become kind of really have had to become kind of really have had to become kind of really shadows of what they were. And one of shadows of what they were. And one of shadows of what they were. And one of the best ones, not the one I wrote about the best ones, not the one I wrote about the best ones, not the one I wrote about in Nanjing, but a similar one, Shanghai in Nanjing, but a similar one, Shanghai in Nanjing, but a similar one, Shanghai one, which was literally an underground one, which was literally an underground one, which was literally an underground bookstore. It was in a metro station and bookstore. It was in a metro station and bookstore. It was in a metro station and it had really freewheeling discussions it had really freewheeling discussions it had really freewheeling discussions of liberal ideas in the early 2000s and of liberal ideas in the early 2000s and of liberal ideas in the early 2000s and early 2010s, but then it just got less early 2010s, but then it just got less early 2010s, but then it just got less and less space to operate under um under and less space to operate under um under and less space to operate under um under Xiinping when things started narrowing Xiinping when things started narrowing Xiinping when things started narrowing and it then had to close in Shanghai and and it then had to close in Shanghai and and it then had to close in Shanghai and it's just been reopened in um DC as JF it's just been reopened in um DC as JF it's just been reopened in um DC as JF Books and it's becoming this really Books and it's becoming this really Books and it's becoming this really interesting cultural hub and I'm I'm interesting cultural hub and I'm I'm interesting cultural hub and I'm I'm really delighted It's where I'm going to really delighted It's where I'm going to really delighted It's where I'm going to hold the launch for my next book um when

hold the launch for my next book um when hold the launch for my next book um when it comes out in June. This book on the it comes out in June. This book on the it comes out in June. This book on the Milk Tea Alliance um about struggles for Milk Tea Alliance um about struggles for Milk Tea Alliance um about struggles for change across East and Southeast Asia, change across East and Southeast Asia, change across East and Southeast Asia, including in places that are worried including in places that are worried including in places that are worried about the kind of rising influence of about the kind of rising influence of about the kind of rising influence of Beijing. And it seems just perfect to be Beijing. And it seems just perfect to be Beijing. And it seems just perfect to be um to be holding it in the kind of place um to be holding it in the kind of place um to be holding it in the kind of place that can't exist in Shanghai. So places that can't exist in Shanghai. So places that can't exist in Shanghai. So places like that, they they stopped being able like that, they they stopped being able like that, they they stopped being able to exist on the mainland. Then they to exist on the mainland. Then they to exist on the mainland. Then they could still exist in Hong Kong, but now could still exist in Hong Kong, but now could still exist in Hong Kong, but now in Hong Kong, one of the coolest in Hong Kong, one of the coolest in Hong Kong, one of the coolest bookstores has had to close up. It just bookstores has had to close up. It just bookstores has had to close up. It just didn't feel like it could continue didn't feel like it could continue didn't feel like it could continue operating and tightening control there. operating and tightening control there. operating and tightening control there. And it's reopened in upstate New York. And it's reopened in upstate New York. And it's reopened in upstate New York. So you have this phenomenon of So you have this phenomenon of So you have this phenomenon of bookstores. There's also a few bookstores. There's also a few bookstores. There's also a few bookstores called the Nowhere bookstores bookstores called the Nowhere bookstores bookstores called the Nowhere bookstores that opened in Chiang Mai and Taipei and that opened in Chiang Mai and Taipei and that opened in Chiang Mai and Taipei and the Hague. And I heard one is maybe it's the Hague. And I heard one is maybe it's the Hague. And I heard one is maybe it's going to open in or is open in Japan going to open in or is open in Japan going to open in or is open in Japan too. Uh my sometime collaborator Amy too. Uh my sometime collaborator Amy too. Uh my sometime collaborator Amy Hawkins uh who covers China for the Hawkins uh who covers China for the Hawkins uh who covers China for the Guardian wrote a great piece late last Guardian wrote a great piece late last Guardian wrote a great piece late last year about this overseas bookstore year about this overseas bookstore year about this overseas bookstore phenomenon sort of carrying on the phenomenon sort of carrying on the phenomenon sort of carrying on the conversations that people thought they conversations that people thought they conversations that people thought they might be able to have in China and then might be able to have in China and then might be able to have in China and then couldn't and imagine someday being able couldn't and imagine someday being able couldn't and imagine someday being able to hold in China but maybe can't.

to hold in China but maybe can't. to hold in China but maybe can't. So, first of all, boy, do I love So, first of all, boy, do I love So, first of all, boy, do I love America. Uh, and and second of all, it America. Uh, and and second of all, it America. Uh, and and second of all, it makes me really sad because there's a makes me really sad because there's a makes me really sad because there's a very large number of incredible people very large number of incredible people very large number of incredible people in China, incredible minds, and maybe in China, incredible minds, and maybe in China, incredible minds, and maybe I'm romantic about this, but books uh is I'm romantic about this, but books uh is I'm romantic about this, but books uh is a catalyst for brilliant minds to a catalyst for brilliant minds to a catalyst for brilliant minds to flourish. and without that. So I guess flourish. and without that. So I guess flourish. and without that. So I guess maybe this is a good time to mention maybe this is a good time to mention maybe this is a good time to mention something that I I do think about and something that I I do think about and something that I I do think about and sometimes people would will think sometimes people would will think sometimes people would will think because of censorship and that there's because of censorship and that there's because of censorship and that there's an idea of sort of brainwashing within an idea of sort of brainwashing within an idea of sort of brainwashing within China population with control and I China population with control and I China population with control and I periodically will get students from the periodically will get students from the periodically will get students from the mainland and I have a lot of students mainland and I have a lot of students mainland and I have a lot of students from the mainland in my classes. I teach from the mainland in my classes. I teach from the mainland in my classes. I teach Chinese history and I feel like okay now Chinese history and I feel like okay now Chinese history and I feel like okay now I'm contradicting the version of the I'm contradicting the version of the I'm contradicting the version of the past that they've that's been drumbe past that they've that's been drumbe past that they've that's been drumbe into them but I'll still get students into them but I'll still get students into them but I'll still get students who are incredible freeth thinkers who who are incredible freeth thinkers who who are incredible freeth thinkers who have come through that system and it have come through that system and it have come through that system and it just it just doesn't hold or there are just it just doesn't hold or there are just it just doesn't hold or there are limits to it limits to it limits to it and this is kind of I mean some of them and this is kind of I mean some of them and this is kind of I mean some of them are people who just got curious by are people who just got curious by are people who just got curious by something and it is a poorest system something and it is a poorest system something and it is a poorest system even you know it's it's it's more porous even you know it's it's it's more porous even you know it's it's it's more porous than a North Korea things like that. So than a North Korea things like that. So than a North Korea things like that. So there are even if there's that like there are even if there's that like there are even if there's that like fear, friction and flooding which you fear, friction and flooding which you fear, friction and flooding which you know um Roberts talks about that ends up know um Roberts talks about that ends up know um Roberts talks about that ends up keeping lots of people on the same page keeping lots of people on the same page keeping lots of people on the same page as the government. There's still people as the government. There's still people as the government. There's still people who take the time to go over the who take the time to go over the who take the time to go over the firewall or get intrigued or they see

firewall or get intrigued or they see firewall or get intrigued or they see they see an they see an they see an image sent by a friend of theirs on image sent by a friend of theirs on image sent by a friend of theirs on social media, you know, we'll share them social media, you know, we'll share them social media, you know, we'll share them uh something on um you know on on WeChat uh something on um you know on on WeChat uh something on um you know on on WeChat that it doesn't it doesn't get picked up that it doesn't it doesn't get picked up that it doesn't it doesn't get picked up by the sensors but they look at it by the sensors but they look at it by the sensors but they look at it carefully and they say oh well wait a carefully and they say oh well wait a carefully and they say oh well wait a minute that under that contradicts what minute that under that contradicts what minute that under that contradicts what the official line is so there is there's the official line is so there is there's the official line is so there is there's still ways in which that you know still ways in which that you know still ways in which that you know creativity and freedom of thinking creativity and freedom of thinking creativity and freedom of thinking persists. I mean that's that's really persists. I mean that's that's really persists. I mean that's that's really beautiful to hear. I mean fundamentally beautiful to hear. I mean fundamentally beautiful to hear. I mean fundamentally the the human the the human the the human spirit is curious and wants to spirit is curious and wants to spirit is curious and wants to understand and in some especially the understand and in some especially the understand and in some especially the young people as we mentioned are young people as we mentioned are young people as we mentioned are suspicious of authority in the best kind suspicious of authority in the best kind suspicious of authority in the best kind of way and so they're always asking of way and so they're always asking of way and so they're always asking kinds of questions but we always have kinds of questions but we always have kinds of questions but we always have the child the young person inside us the child the young person inside us the child the young person inside us always asking like always asking like always asking like uh that maybe I'm being lied to in all uh that maybe I'm being lied to in all uh that maybe I'm being lied to in all these kinds of ways but still it's sad these kinds of ways but still it's sad these kinds of ways but still it's sad because it there is um if you're not because it there is um if you're not because it there is um if you're not deliberately doing that or if there's deliberately doing that or if there's deliberately doing that or if there's not a spark of possibility that comes not a spark of possibility that comes not a spark of possibility that comes before you as just a regular citizen of before you as just a regular citizen of before you as just a regular citizen of China. You might never really ask maybe China. You might never really ask maybe China. You might never really ask maybe a whole there's a whole different a whole there's a whole different a whole there's a whole different perspective on history on world history.

perspective on history on world history. perspective on history on world history. To be fair, I think United States is is To be fair, I think United States is is To be fair, I think United States is is often guilty of this very United States often guilty of this very United States often guilty of this very United States ccentric view of history. I mean similar ccentric view of history. I mean similar ccentric view of history. I mean similar with Europe. Europe has a very Europe with Europe. Europe has a very Europe with Europe. Europe has a very Europe sense of history. I often enjoy talking sense of history. I often enjoy talking sense of history. I often enjoy talking to people from different backgrounds to people from different backgrounds to people from different backgrounds from different parts of the world, from different parts of the world, from different parts of the world, talking to them about World War II talking to them about World War II talking to them about World War II because it's like it's clear that the because it's like it's clear that the because it's like it's clear that the emphasis you've read certain chapters of emphasis you've read certain chapters of emphasis you've read certain chapters of the story a lot of times and not the the story a lot of times and not the the story a lot of times and not the other chapters of the story, the Western other chapters of the story, the Western other chapters of the story, the Western Front in Europe and the Eastern Front in Front in Europe and the Eastern Front in Front in Europe and the Eastern Front in Europe. And then Japan and China's role Europe. And then Japan and China's role Europe. And then Japan and China's role in World War II and the history around in World War II and the history around in World War II and the history around that before and after World War II of that before and after World War II of that before and after World War II of China is not often talked about in the China is not often talked about in the China is not often talked about in the United States. And I'm sure if I can United States. And I'm sure if I can United States. And I'm sure if I can venture a guess that the opposite is venture a guess that the opposite is venture a guess that the opposite is true in China. I certainly know the true in China. I certainly know the true in China. I certainly know the opposite was true in the Soviet Union opposite was true in the Soviet Union opposite was true in the Soviet Union and even in Europe that directly and even in Europe that directly and even in Europe that directly experienced France, Great Britain, experienced France, Great Britain, experienced France, Great Britain, Germany, Italy, they all have very Germany, Italy, they all have very Germany, Italy, they all have very different ways of speaking and thinking different ways of speaking and thinking different ways of speaking and thinking and reading about World War II. And the and reading about World War II. And the and reading about World War II. And the same goes um across all of history and same goes um across all of history and same goes um across all of history and all of culture. So yes, it's always good all of culture. So yes, it's always good all of culture. So yes, it's always good to sort of question the mainstream to sort of question the mainstream to sort of question the mainstream narrative in your country and looking narrative in your country and looking narrative in your country and looking outside. is just harder to do in China outside. is just harder to do in China outside. is just harder to do in China based on technological based on all the based on technological based on all the based on technological based on all the reasons you've mentioned. And if I can, reasons you've mentioned. And if I can, reasons you've mentioned. And if I can, I just want to give a shout out. Thank I just want to give a shout out. Thank I just want to give a shout out. Thank you. I'll I'll look at her work, you. I'll I'll look at her work, you. I'll I'll look at her work, Margaret Roberts. The the fear, the Margaret Roberts. The the fear, the Margaret Roberts. The the fear, the friction, and the flooding her ideas. I

friction, and the flooding her ideas. I friction, and the flooding her ideas. I can already tell there's a lot of can already tell there's a lot of can already tell there's a lot of brilliance here. Uh fear, this is the brilliance here. Uh fear, this is the brilliance here. Uh fear, this is the most traditional form involving overt most traditional form involving overt most traditional form involving overt threats and punishments for accessing threats and punishments for accessing threats and punishments for accessing and sharing s sensitive information. and sharing s sensitive information. and sharing s sensitive information. However, Roberts finds that fear-based However, Roberts finds that fear-based However, Roberts finds that fear-based censorship is used selectively, mainly censorship is used selectively, mainly censorship is used selectively, mainly targeting high-profile individuals such targeting high-profile individuals such targeting high-profile individuals such as journalists or activists. For the as journalists or activists. For the as journalists or activists. For the average citizen, the risk of punishment average citizen, the risk of punishment average citizen, the risk of punishment is relatively low, and fear alone is not is relatively low, and fear alone is not is relatively low, and fear alone is not the main deterrent. She goes on to the main deterrent. She goes on to the main deterrent. She goes on to describe the the friction and the describe the the friction and the describe the the friction and the flooding. flooding. flooding. The friction is attacks on information The friction is attacks on information The friction is attacks on information access and flooding is less visible in access and flooding is less visible in access and flooding is less visible in fear or friction but is a powerful tool fear or friction but is a powerful tool fear or friction but is a powerful tool for shaping the information environment. for shaping the information environment. for shaping the information environment. Flooding one scares me more and more. Flooding one scares me more and more. Flooding one scares me more and more. Flooding one is the brave new world. Flooding one is the brave new world. Flooding one is the brave new world. Yeah, it is. And I think it's a whole Yeah, it is. And I think it's a whole Yeah, it is. And I think it's a whole kind kind kind of the world of short attention spans of the world of short attention spans of the world of short attention spans and social media and how this all works. and social media and how this all works. and social media and how this all works. And um Chinese Communist Party leaders And um Chinese Communist Party leaders And um Chinese Communist Party leaders were I I brought up Singapore and Dang were I I brought up Singapore and Dang were I I brought up Singapore and Dang Xiaoing and some of the other leaders Xiaoing and some of the other leaders Xiaoing and some of the other leaders were like looking at that and they're were like looking at that and they're were like looking at that and they're looking at you know there are all kinds looking at you know there are all kinds looking at you know there are all kinds of things of things of things that it that it that it both going to Singapore both going to Singapore both going to Singapore um can sometimes make you feel like um can sometimes make you feel like um can sometimes make you feel like you're you're in this futuristic setting you're you're in this futuristic setting you're you're in this futuristic setting in terms of a lot of things that I that in terms of a lot of things that I that in terms of a lot of things that I that eventually came uh to other parts of the eventually came uh to other parts of the eventually came uh to other parts of the world would would be tried out there and world would would be tried out there and world would would be tried out there and and I think the seductiveness is that and I think the seductiveness is that and I think the seductiveness is that some of these things are are really they some of these things are are really they some of these things are are really they both add to convenience at the same time both add to convenience at the same time both add to convenience at the same time they strip away. They're collecting

they strip away. They're collecting they strip away. They're collecting information about you which can be also information about you which can be also information about you which can be also something that can make your life easier something that can make your life easier something that can make your life easier at the same times it's stripping you at the same times it's stripping you at the same times it's stripping you away of I mean we talk about the siling away of I mean we talk about the siling away of I mean we talk about the siling of information and targeting of ads and of information and targeting of ads and of information and targeting of ads and targeting of news and um so two things targeting of news and um so two things targeting of news and um so two things come to mind to to mention one is um come to mind to to mention one is um come to mind to to mention one is um Christina Larson very bright journalist Christina Larson very bright journalist Christina Larson very bright journalist uh friend of mine who's now working on uh friend of mine who's now working on uh friend of mine who's now working on other things but was working in China other things but was working in China other things but was working in China and she wrote wrote about this in MIT and she wrote wrote about this in MIT and she wrote wrote about this in MIT Technology Review. She said, "You need Technology Review. She said, "You need Technology Review. She said, "You need to think about China as having the best to think about China as having the best to think about China as having the best as well as the worst internet experience as well as the worst internet experience as well as the worst internet experience in the world." And you know, you think in the world." And you know, you think in the world." And you know, you think about it with you think of the worst is about it with you think of the worst is about it with you think of the worst is easy. You know, the great firewall, you easy. You know, the great firewall, you easy. You know, the great firewall, you try to search for what happened. You try to search for what happened. You try to search for what happened. You search for the tank man, you won't get search for the tank man, you won't get search for the tank man, you won't get it. You search for information about it. You search for information about it. You search for information about Dalai Lama and you get all these lies Dalai Lama and you get all these lies Dalai Lama and you get all these lies about him. Search for things about about him. Search for things about about him. Search for things about Shinjang and it makes seem like it's a Shinjang and it makes seem like it's a Shinjang and it makes seem like it's a place where people are happy rather than place where people are happy rather than place where people are happy rather than massive. um extraleal detention camps massive. um extraleal detention camps massive. um extraleal detention camps and where your life can be ruined by um and where your life can be ruined by um and where your life can be ruined by um by by things you have no control over.

by by things you have no control over. by by things you have no control over. But she said like on other ways when it But she said like on other ways when it But she said like on other ways when it comes to like consumer playing to your comes to like consumer playing to your comes to like consumer playing to your your pleasures and things it was it was your pleasures and things it was it was your pleasures and things it was it was really advanced. A lot of things that really advanced. A lot of things that really advanced. A lot of things that then come out of the place are tried out then come out of the place are tried out then come out of the place are tried out there and in massive numbers. And I there and in massive numbers. And I there and in massive numbers. And I remember after I around the time that I remember after I around the time that I remember after I around the time that I had read that I was in Shanghai and had read that I was in Shanghai and had read that I was in Shanghai and somebody was explaining it to me. They somebody was explaining it to me. They somebody was explaining it to me. They were talking about like going out to were talking about like going out to were talking about like going out to eat. Like I said, oh, we've got such and eat. Like I said, oh, we've got such and eat. Like I said, oh, we've got such and such. And I said, "Oh, that's like such. And I said, "Oh, that's like such. And I said, "Oh, that's like Yelp." He said, "Well, yeah, but Yelp Yelp." He said, "Well, yeah, but Yelp Yelp." He said, "Well, yeah, but Yelp just tells you the overall rating for a just tells you the overall rating for a just tells you the overall rating for a restaurant over time. We've got one that restaurant over time. We've got one that restaurant over time. We've got one that can tell you who's which which part of can tell you who's which which part of can tell you who's which which part of the restaurant you want to sit in the restaurant you want to sit in the restaurant you want to sit in because there's a waiter that's in a because there's a waiter that's in a because there's a waiter that's in a really bad mood and people have posted really bad mood and people have posted really bad mood and people have posted enough information to do this or, you enough information to do this or, you enough information to do this or, you know, what the best dish there is in the know, what the best dish there is in the know, what the best dish there is in the last week. forget about these sort of last week. forget about these sort of last week. forget about these sort of slow and you had a lot of things you slow and you had a lot of things you slow and you had a lot of things you know that that were like okay you smart know that that were like okay you smart know that that were like okay you smart city and controlled you can learn things city and controlled you can learn things city and controlled you can learn things about ease of movement and Singapore had about ease of movement and Singapore had about ease of movement and Singapore had some of these things tested too you had some of these things tested too you had some of these things tested too you had way before you move you go into an way before you move you go into an way before you move you go into an underground um parking lot now in the US underground um parking lot now in the US underground um parking lot now in the US and you find out whether there are any and you find out whether there are any and you find out whether there are any empty spaces on um on a on a floor that empty spaces on um on a on a floor that empty spaces on um on a on a floor that was something that was years before in was something that was years before in was something that was years before in Singapore for and you don't use you used Singapore for and you don't use you used Singapore for and you don't use you used money less often there because you had a money less often there because you had a money less often there because you had a kind of transponder that would kind of transponder that would kind of transponder that would automatically pay for your parking and automatically pay for your parking and automatically pay for your parking and things and it it was something that can things and it it was something that can things and it it was something that can be very seductive. So the other line be very seductive. So the other line be very seductive. So the other line besides best and worst internet I always

besides best and worst internet I always besides best and worst internet I always like is William Gibson who wrote one of like is William Gibson who wrote one of like is William Gibson who wrote one of the other important dystopian novels of the other important dystopian novels of the other important dystopian novels of the present neurommancer he wrote a rare the present neurommancer he wrote a rare the present neurommancer he wrote a rare non for him non-fiction piece about non for him non-fiction piece about non for him non-fiction piece about Singapore where he referred to it as Singapore where he referred to it as Singapore where he referred to it as Disneyland with the death penalty. Disneyland with the death penalty. Disneyland with the death penalty. And you know there are times when I And you know there are times when I And you know there are times when I shouldn't laugh there but it is it's a shouldn't laugh there but it is it's a shouldn't laugh there but it is it's a powerful powerful powerful he's not welcomed in Singapore let's he's not welcomed in Singapore let's he's not welcomed in Singapore let's just say but he he talked about how when just say but he he talked about how when just say but he he talked about how when he wanted to try to he went to Japan a he wanted to try to he went to Japan a he wanted to try to he went to Japan a lot in the 1980s at a time when Japan lot in the 1980s at a time when Japan lot in the 1980s at a time when Japan was a place where you sort of got a was a place where you sort of got a was a place where you sort of got a sense of what the future might hold. So sense of what the future might hold. So sense of what the future might hold. So the the dark side of this, the the the dark side of this, the the the dark side of this, the surveillance state at its worst, which surveillance state at its worst, which surveillance state at its worst, which we're seeing we see in Shinjang in we're seeing we see in Shinjang in we're seeing we see in Shinjang in places and there again it may seem like places and there again it may seem like places and there again it may seem like I'm just obsessed with um science I'm just obsessed with um science I'm just obsessed with um science fiction and there there it really is fiction and there there it really is fiction and there there it really is minority report. It's this kind of like minority report. It's this kind of like minority report. It's this kind of like you do certain kinds of behaviors and you do certain kinds of behaviors and you do certain kinds of behaviors and we're seeing this other places too. um we're seeing this other places too. um we're seeing this other places too. um you know we're seeing versions of it in you know we're seeing versions of it in you know we're seeing versions of it in the US as well where it's like oh we can the US as well where it's like oh we can the US as well where it's like oh we can tell from a pattern that you're the kind tell from a pattern that you're the kind tell from a pattern that you're the kind of person who might do X and so in of person who might do X and so in of person who might do X and so in Shinjang they were when they were Shinjang they were when they were Shinjang they were when they were starting to round people up there's this starting to round people up there's this starting to round people up there's this great book by a weager poet he talks great book by a weager poet he talks great book by a weager poet he talks about how people were just starting to about how people were just starting to about how people were just starting to disappear off the streets and they were disappear off the streets and they were disappear off the streets and they were being accused of being uh radicalized being accused of being uh radicalized being accused of being uh radicalized and being um potential terrorists and and being um potential terrorists and and being um potential terrorists and the cues could be something the cues could be something the cues could be something like somebody giving up smoking or not

like somebody giving up smoking or not like somebody giving up smoking or not drinking alcohol because that was seen drinking alcohol because that was seen drinking alcohol because that was seen as something that sometimes went along as something that sometimes went along as something that sometimes went along becoming with becoming more um more becoming with becoming more um more becoming with becoming more um more devoted to Islam and more devoted to devoted to Islam and more devoted to devoted to Islam and more devoted to something a particular version of it. So something a particular version of it. So something a particular version of it. So he talked about how a group of the poets he talked about how a group of the poets he talked about how a group of the poets when they would get writers would they when they would get writers would they when they would get writers would they get together they would whether or not get together they would whether or not get together they would whether or not any of them drank they would make sure any of them drank they would make sure any of them drank they would make sure there was a bottle of alcohol on their there was a bottle of alcohol on their there was a bottle of alcohol on their table because it was simply a way of table because it was simply a way of table because it was simply a way of trying to stay ahead of this system of trying to stay ahead of this system of trying to stay ahead of this system of looking for these kind of clues. So you looking for these kind of clues. So you looking for these kind of clues. So you really have this dark side of um really have this dark side of um really have this dark side of um Shinjang is is this example in Tibet Shinjang is is this example in Tibet Shinjang is is this example in Tibet also with incredible um tight control also with incredible um tight control also with incredible um tight control and there's more of that kind of push on and there's more of that kind of push on and there's more of that kind of push on personal life in other parts of China as personal life in other parts of China as personal life in other parts of China as well. well. well. Um, but I think the question of whether Um, but I think the question of whether Um, but I think the question of whether we give up too much and who can abuse we give up too much and who can abuse we give up too much and who can abuse what we do give up is something that is what we do give up is something that is what we do give up is something that is being asked in the United States now being asked in the United States now being asked in the United States now about big tech companies as well as it's about big tech companies as well as it's about big tech companies as well as it's asked about governments, but it's also asked about governments, but it's also asked about governments, but it's also act asked about about big tech and what act asked about about big tech and what act asked about about big tech and what you have as a trade-off. And I hadn't you have as a trade-off. And I hadn't you have as a trade-off. And I hadn't thought about it till this conversation, thought about it till this conversation, thought about it till this conversation, which I can tell is why people find it which I can tell is why people find it which I can tell is why people find it uh stimulating to have these extended uh stimulating to have these extended uh stimulating to have these extended conversations because you have set conversations because you have set conversations because you have set lines, but then you kind of the lines, but then you kind of the lines, but then you kind of the conversation goes and you think in a conversation goes and you think in a conversation goes and you think in a different way. So what I used to always different way. So what I used to always different way. So what I used to always say about China after say about China after say about China after 1989 was the Chinese Communist Party 1989 was the Chinese Communist Party 1989 was the Chinese Communist Party wanted to stay in power and they wanted to stay in power and they wanted to stay in power and they realized that the Soviet Union, Soviet

realized that the Soviet Union, Soviet realized that the Soviet Union, Soviet block was dis was falling apart. They block was dis was falling apart. They block was dis was falling apart. They knew that one reason why people and this knew that one reason why people and this knew that one reason why people and this is like the simple way of one way I is like the simple way of one way I is like the simple way of one way I think you have to understand why think you have to understand why think you have to understand why communism fell in Eastern Europe was communism fell in Eastern Europe was communism fell in Eastern Europe was partly about ideals and thirst for partly about ideals and thirst for partly about ideals and thirst for freedom and that but also people knew freedom and that but also people knew freedom and that but also people knew that people East Germans knew that West that people East Germans knew that West that people East Germans knew that West Germans were having more fun and having Germans were having more fun and having Germans were having more fun and having getting better stuff. And when some East getting better stuff. And when some East getting better stuff. And when some East Berliners got over the wall, one of the Berliners got over the wall, one of the Berliners got over the wall, one of the first places they went to was this first places they went to was this first places they went to was this department store to see if the images of department store to see if the images of department store to see if the images of better food and more choices were better food and more choices were better food and more choices were available there. And it and it was true. available there. And it and it was true. available there. And it and it was true. And I think this is a human as human as And I think this is a human as human as And I think this is a human as human as the desire for more freedom. So one of the desire for more freedom. So one of the desire for more freedom. So one of the things that the Chinese Communist the things that the Chinese Communist the things that the Chinese Communist Party, they never articulated this way, Party, they never articulated this way, Party, they never articulated this way, but how can we try to get to a stage but how can we try to get to a stage but how can we try to get to a stage where we don't have things like tanment where we don't have things like tanment where we don't have things like tanment again? Well, what if we tried to make a again? Well, what if we tried to make a again? Well, what if we tried to make a deal with people? We'll give them more deal with people? We'll give them more deal with people? We'll give them more choices in their daily life. We'll give choices in their daily life. We'll give choices in their daily life. We'll give them better stuff. We'll give them more them better stuff. We'll give them more them better stuff. We'll give them more choices at the store. We'll give them choices at the store. We'll give them choices at the store. We'll give them more choices about what to read to cuz more choices about what to read to cuz more choices about what to read to cuz you know, we'll give them more choices you know, we'll give them more choices you know, we'll give them more choices in consumer goods and intellectuals, in consumer goods and intellectuals, in consumer goods and intellectuals, consumer goods they want or to watch the consumer goods they want or to watch the consumer goods they want or to watch the movies and read the books that other movies and read the books that other movies and read the books that other people like them around the world are people like them around the world are people like them around the world are reading. So, we'll give them more reading. So, we'll give them more reading. So, we'll give them more choices. we won't open the floodgates choices. we won't open the floodgates choices. we won't open the floodgates completely, but we'll give them more completely, but we'll give them more completely, but we'll give them more choices, but not give them more choices choices, but not give them more choices choices, but not give them more choices at the at the ballot box or in at the at the ballot box or in at the at the ballot box or in politics. And this was the new kind of politics. And this was the new kind of politics. And this was the new kind of new social compact. Allow us to keep new social compact. Allow us to keep new social compact. Allow us to keep ruling and we'll make sure that you're ruling and we'll make sure that you're ruling and we'll make sure that you're living better than the last generation

living better than the last generation living better than the last generation in terms of choices and in terms of um in terms of choices and in terms of um in terms of choices and in terms of um material goods. material goods. material goods. Now, one of the things that's happening Now, one of the things that's happening Now, one of the things that's happening now is the Chinese Communist Party, the now is the Chinese Communist Party, the now is the Chinese Communist Party, the economy isn't booming the way it was economy isn't booming the way it was economy isn't booming the way it was before. The sort of sense of clearly before. The sort of sense of clearly before. The sort of sense of clearly we're living better materially than our we're living better materially than our we're living better materially than our the generation before. It's it's it's the generation before. It's it's it's the generation before. It's it's it's not as easy an argument to make when you not as easy an argument to make when you not as easy an argument to make when you have slower growth rates and things like have slower growth rates and things like have slower growth rates and things like that. But the Communist Party makes that. But the Communist Party makes that. But the Communist Party makes different kinds of arguments now about different kinds of arguments now about different kinds of arguments now about the rest of the world is in chaos and the rest of the world is in chaos and the rest of the world is in chaos and we're more stable. But but the thing we're more stable. But but the thing we're more stable. But but the thing that I I hadn't that I now I'm going to that I I hadn't that I now I'm going to that I I hadn't that I now I'm going to think about differently is the argument think about differently is the argument think about differently is the argument was we'll give you more choices and was we'll give you more choices and was we'll give you more choices and you'll have more sort of more of a you'll have more sort of more of a you'll have more sort of more of a private life more of this. But now in private life more of this. But now in private life more of this. But now in the period we are the period we are the period we are globally now there's a new kind of globally now there's a new kind of globally now there's a new kind of suspicion about the degree of any kind suspicion about the degree of any kind suspicion about the degree of any kind of private choices. I mean there was an of private choices. I mean there was an of private choices. I mean there was an idea that the post tiana men generation idea that the post tiana men generation idea that the post tiana men generation was promised to have a little bit more was promised to have a little bit more was promised to have a little bit more space away from the prying eyes of the space away from the prying eyes of the space away from the prying eyes of the state state state and now globally we worry about the and now globally we worry about the and now globally we worry about the prying eyes of whether it's the state or prying eyes of whether it's the state or prying eyes of whether it's the state or whether it's tech companies. It's it's a whether it's tech companies. It's it's a whether it's tech companies. It's it's a different moment. What does it mean to different moment. What does it mean to different moment. What does it mean to say you have more choices? It's almost say you have more choices? It's almost say you have more choices? It's almost like you have two knobs. One is 1984 and like you have two knobs. One is 1984 and like you have two knobs. One is 1984 and one is Brave New World. At first they one is Brave New World. At first they one is Brave New World. At first they turned up the Brave New World, more turned up the Brave New World, more turned up the Brave New World, more choices, and now they're uh turning up choices, and now they're uh turning up choices, and now they're uh turning up the 1984, keeping the choices, but the 1984, keeping the choices, but the 1984, keeping the choices, but turning up the 1984 with more

turning up the 1984 with more turning up the 1984 with more surveillance. So the choices you make surveillance. So the choices you make surveillance. So the choices you make have to be more public. Do you have a have to be more public. Do you have a have to be more public. Do you have a sense sense sense that the thing we've been talking about, that the thing we've been talking about, that the thing we've been talking about, the increase in the increase in the increase in censorship, does that predate Xi censorship, does that predate Xi censorship, does that predate Xi Jinping? Is Xiinping a part of that Jinping? Is Xiinping a part of that Jinping? Is Xiinping a part of that increase in censorship? Like what is increase in censorship? Like what is increase in censorship? Like what is that dynamic? What role does Xi Jinping that dynamic? What role does Xi Jinping that dynamic? What role does Xi Jinping play in uh what China has gone through play in uh what China has gone through play in uh what China has gone through over the past uh let's say a decade and over the past uh let's say a decade and over the past uh let's say a decade and a half? That's a really great question. a half? That's a really great question. a half? That's a really great question. I was I was actually just writing a I was I was actually just writing a I was I was actually just writing a review of two books. One is called the review of two books. One is called the review of two books. One is called the Xiinping effect which was just a bunch Xiinping effect which was just a bunch Xiinping effect which was just a bunch of of of scholars an academic volume sort of scholars an academic volume sort of scholars an academic volume sort of looking at take this topic and that looking at take this topic and that looking at take this topic and that topic how much is Xiinping as a person topic how much is Xiinping as a person topic how much is Xiinping as a person really affected it and it they come up really affected it and it they come up really affected it and it they come up with all kinds of answers but there's a with all kinds of answers but there's a with all kinds of answers but there's a book I I really like um Emily Fang of book I I really like um Emily Fang of book I I really like um Emily Fang of NPR has a new book out called um let NPR has a new book out called um let NPR has a new book out called um let only red flowers bloom only red flowers bloom only red flowers bloom and what she talks about the changes in and what she talks about the changes in and what she talks about the changes in China as she was covering it from the China as she was covering it from the China as she was covering it from the mid2010s on was and I think this really mid2010s on was and I think this really mid2010s on was and I think this really is Xiinping's one of his impromachers on is Xiinping's one of his impromachers on is Xiinping's one of his impromachers on the country is there's a narrowing of the country is there's a narrowing of the country is there's a narrowing of spaces available for variations of ways spaces available for variations of ways spaces available for variations of ways of being Chinese within the country and of being Chinese within the country and of being Chinese within the country and this goes against the grain of a pattern this goes against the grain of a pattern this goes against the grain of a pattern in the sort of post Tiana men period of in the sort of post Tiana men period of in the sort of post Tiana men period of allowing more space for sort of civil allowing more space for sort of civil allowing more space for sort of civil society but also allowing sort of way

society but also allowing sort of way society but also allowing sort of way Muslims felt that they didn't have to Muslims felt that they didn't have to Muslims felt that they didn't have to choose between being you know their choose between being you know their choose between being you know their Muslim identity and their Chinese Muslim identity and their Chinese Muslim identity and their Chinese identity that there's more and more of a identity that there's more and more of a identity that there's more and more of a kind of um we see this in Xiinping being kind of um we see this in Xiinping being kind of um we see this in Xiinping being becoming impatient with Hong Kong where becoming impatient with Hong Kong where becoming impatient with Hong Kong where there was a way of which okay this is a there was a way of which okay this is a there was a way of which okay this is a city that's part of the PRC but it city that's part of the PRC but it city that's part of the PRC but it really operates very differently he really operates very differently he really operates very differently he seems to seems to seems to be uncomfortable with difference I guess be uncomfortable with difference I guess be uncomfortable with difference I guess is and he's not alone in strongman this is and he's not alone in strongman this is and he's not alone in strongman this way of sort of wanting to impose a kind way of sort of wanting to impose a kind way of sort of wanting to impose a kind of singular vision of what Chinese of singular vision of what Chinese of singular vision of what Chinese identity means, what loyalty to the identity means, what loyalty to the identity means, what loyalty to the status quo means. And so there's been a status quo means. And so there's been a status quo means. And so there's been a kind of tightening of controls over all kind of tightening of controls over all kind of tightening of controls over all the borders and even things one thing the borders and even things one thing the borders and even things one thing she reported on was Mongolia in Mong she reported on was Mongolia in Mong she reported on was Mongolia in Mong Inner Mongolia. it it's been seen as an Inner Mongolia. it it's been seen as an Inner Mongolia. it it's been seen as an unproatic kind of frontier area and who unproatic kind of frontier area and who unproatic kind of frontier area and who cares if there was some revival of cares if there was some revival of cares if there was some revival of Mongolian language but under shei Mongolian language but under shei Mongolian language but under shei there's been a there's been a less there's been a there's been a less there's been a there's been a less patience with with those kinds of patience with with those kinds of patience with with those kinds of difference he's been uh it's been a difference he's been uh it's been a difference he's been uh it's been a there's been more of a resurgence of there's been more of a resurgence of there's been more of a resurgence of patriarchy all kinds of things have patriarchy all kinds of things have patriarchy all kinds of things have happened under him but how much is it happened under him but how much is it happened under him but how much is it just him or how much is it just him or how much is it just him or how much is it also a kind of mood or group within the also a kind of mood or group within the also a kind of mood or group within the party. Some of these trends I think party. Some of these trends I think party. Some of these trends I think began before he took power in late 2012.

began before he took power in late 2012. began before he took power in late 2012. I think really my own feeling going to I think really my own feeling going to I think really my own feeling going to China fairly often from the mid 1990s China fairly often from the mid 1990s China fairly often from the mid 1990s till about till about till about 2018 was that until 2008 the year of the 2018 was that until 2008 the year of the 2018 was that until 2008 the year of the Olympics year each trip it would feel Olympics year each trip it would feel Olympics year each trip it would feel like oh there's just more space there's like oh there's just more space there's like oh there's just more space there's more breathing room for uh you know it's more breathing room for uh you know it's more breathing room for uh you know it's not becoming a liberal democracy but I not becoming a liberal democracy but I not becoming a liberal democracy but I would notice things that felt like I'm would notice things that felt like I'm would notice things that felt like I'm surprised that that that happens that surprised that that that happens that surprised that that that happens that there just felt people felt less worried there just felt people felt less worried there just felt people felt less worried about what they were saying and what about what they were saying and what about what they were saying and what they were doing. Um that kind of trend they were doing. Um that kind of trend they were doing. Um that kind of trend line up until about 2008. But from the line up until about 2008. But from the line up until about 2008. But from the Olympics um and then the financial Olympics um and then the financial Olympics um and then the financial crisis after crisis after crisis after that the Chinese Communist Party felt I that the Chinese Communist Party felt I that the Chinese Communist Party felt I guess more it's still insecure but it guess more it's still insecure but it guess more it's still insecure but it felt cockier in some ways. and you had felt cockier in some ways. and you had felt cockier in some ways. and you had like okay maybe we can start asserting like okay maybe we can start asserting like okay maybe we can start asserting more control over things. So I think more control over things. So I think more control over things. So I think that's been stronger under Xiinping's that's been stronger under Xiinping's that's been stronger under Xiinping's time in power and he was already the time in power and he was already the time in power and he was already the designated successor by 2008. He was in designated successor by 2008. He was in designated successor by 2008. He was in charge of um he was in charge of charge of um he was in charge of charge of um he was in charge of security for the Olympics. And the security for the Olympics. And the security for the Olympics. And the Olympics was supposed to be a moment Olympics was supposed to be a moment Olympics was supposed to be a moment possibly of more opening up because when possibly of more opening up because when possibly of more opening up because when Seoul hosted the Olympics, South Korea Seoul hosted the Olympics, South Korea Seoul hosted the Olympics, South Korea became a less tightly controlled became a less tightly controlled became a less tightly controlled right-wing um dictatorship and move right-wing um dictatorship and move right-wing um dictatorship and move toward democracy and some people were toward democracy and some people were toward democracy and some people were hoping the Olympics might move China

hoping the Olympics might move China hoping the Olympics might move China that way and it went quite the opposite. that way and it went quite the opposite. that way and it went quite the opposite. You mentioned that you we don't know the You mentioned that you we don't know the You mentioned that you we don't know the degree to which this change has to do degree to which this change has to do degree to which this change has to do with Xi Jinping or the party apparatus with Xi Jinping or the party apparatus with Xi Jinping or the party apparatus and that question going back to and that question going back to and that question going back to Confucious of hierarchy and how does the Confucious of hierarchy and how does the Confucious of hierarchy and how does the power within this very strict one party power within this very strict one party power within this very strict one party state uh work? What can we say? What do state uh work? What can we say? What do state uh work? What can we say? What do we know about the we know about the we know about the structure of this communist party structure of this communist party structure of this communist party apparatus? Uh how much internal power apparatus? Uh how much internal power apparatus? Uh how much internal power struggle is there? How much power does struggle is there? How much power does struggle is there? How much power does Xi Jinping actually have? Is there any Xi Jinping actually have? Is there any Xi Jinping actually have? Is there any insight we have into the system? So insight we have into the system? So insight we have into the system? So James Palmer who worked in Beijing as a James Palmer who worked in Beijing as a James Palmer who worked in Beijing as a journalist and now is an editor foreign journalist and now is an editor foreign journalist and now is an editor foreign policy wrote an important piece few policy wrote an important piece few policy wrote an important piece few years ago about just we should really be years ago about just we should really be years ago about just we should really be straight about what a black box the straight about what a black box the straight about what a black box the Chinese elite elite politics are and Chinese elite elite politics are and Chinese elite elite politics are and really not try to pretend we know more really not try to pretend we know more really not try to pretend we know more than we do. We did used to have more of than we do. We did used to have more of than we do. We did used to have more of a sense of these kind of ideological a sense of these kind of ideological a sense of these kind of ideological factions, but also partly about factions, but also partly about factions, but also partly about different views of how much tinkering different views of how much tinkering different views of how much tinkering there should be with the economy and there should be with the economy and there should be with the economy and things like that. And they were also things like that. And they were also things like that. And they were also basic partly based on personalities and basic partly based on personalities and basic partly based on personalities and personal ties. But we did have a sense personal ties. But we did have a sense personal ties. But we did have a sense you could sort of map out these kinds of you could sort of map out these kinds of you could sort of map out these kinds of rival power bases and things. And we rival power bases and things. And we rival power bases and things. And we just have much less of a sense of that just have much less of a sense of that just have much less of a sense of that under Xiinping. It's very hard to know under Xiinping. It's very hard to know under Xiinping. It's very hard to know other than the sort of small group other than the sort of small group other than the sort of small group around him how it works. We don't have a

around him how it works. We don't have a around him how it works. We don't have a major defector who says yeah this is how major defector who says yeah this is how major defector who says yeah this is how this is how Xiinping we we have this is how Xiinping we we have this is how Xiinping we we have Xiinping's Xiinping's Xiinping's self-presentation and a lot of things self-presentation and a lot of things self-presentation and a lot of things that are then um said about him. There that are then um said about him. There that are then um said about him. There were some false expectations about him were some false expectations about him were some false expectations about him that some people thought oh he's going that some people thought oh he's going that some people thought oh he's going to be a reformer because his father was to be a reformer because his father was to be a reformer because his father was a liberalizing figure and you know that a liberalizing figure and you know that a liberalizing figure and you know that doesn't work that way. He does seem to doesn't work that way. He does seem to doesn't work that way. He does seem to care about orderliness. he does seem to care about orderliness. he does seem to care about orderliness. he does seem to care about certain things. He wants to care about certain things. He wants to care about certain things. He wants to present himself as a kind of scholarly present himself as a kind of scholarly present himself as a kind of scholarly figure in touch with China's deep past. figure in touch with China's deep past. figure in touch with China's deep past. Um we know he's a strong nationalist and Um we know he's a strong nationalist and Um we know he's a strong nationalist and a kind of cultural nationalist as well a kind of cultural nationalist as well a kind of cultural nationalist as well as um political nationalist, but beyond as um political nationalist, but beyond as um political nationalist, but beyond that we don't have that much of a sense that we don't have that much of a sense that we don't have that much of a sense of what makes him what makes him tick. of what makes him what makes him tick. of what makes him what makes him tick. we get little hints. Um, you know, there we get little hints. Um, you know, there we get little hints. Um, you know, there was a secret speech where he talked was a secret speech where he talked was a secret speech where he talked about that leaked out that he talked about that leaked out that he talked about that leaked out that he talked about how the Soviet Union had collapsed about how the Soviet Union had collapsed about how the Soviet Union had collapsed because people didn't the leadership because people didn't the leadership because people didn't the leadership didn't pay enough attention to ideology. didn't pay enough attention to ideology. didn't pay enough attention to ideology. And he also said that none of them were And he also said that none of them were And he also said that none of them were manly enough to keep control. So manly enough to keep control. So manly enough to keep control. So he I imagine if he and he and Putin ever he I imagine if he and he and Putin ever he I imagine if he and he and Putin ever have a kind of heart-to-heart have a kind of heart-to-heart have a kind of heart-to-heart conversation, they'd one thing they'd conversation, they'd one thing they'd conversation, they'd one thing they'd find to agree on is this sort of find to agree on is this sort of find to agree on is this sort of distaste for Gorbachev. This feeling distaste for Gorbachev. This feeling distaste for Gorbachev. This feeling that Gorbachev was that was the wrong that Gorbachev was that was the wrong that Gorbachev was that was the wrong way to do things. Not manly enough.

way to do things. Not manly enough. way to do things. Not manly enough. Yeah. And two not strong enough about Yeah. And two not strong enough about Yeah. And two not strong enough about you know really keeping control. And you you know really keeping control. And you you know really keeping control. And you know for Putin it would be that it led know for Putin it would be that it led know for Putin it would be that it led to the Soviet Union to the loss of an to the Soviet Union to the loss of an to the Soviet Union to the loss of an empire. But for Xiinping, it's there is empire. But for Xiinping, it's there is empire. But for Xiinping, it's there is a bit of being haunted by what happened a bit of being haunted by what happened a bit of being haunted by what happened to the Soviet Union. And we're not I'm to the Soviet Union. And we're not I'm to the Soviet Union. And we're not I'm not going to be the leader who sees the not going to be the leader who sees the not going to be the leader who sees the diminishment of diminishment of diminishment of this land mass that was in a sense this land mass that was in a sense this land mass that was in a sense rebuilt over time for Mao and then Den rebuilt over time for Mao and then Den rebuilt over time for Mao and then Den Xiaoing. You know, you have the the Xiaoing. You know, you have the the Xiaoing. You know, you have the the story a very powerful story about the story a very powerful story about the story a very powerful story about the Chinese past that the Chinese Communist Chinese past that the Chinese Communist Chinese past that the Chinese Communist Party makes a lot out of. Party makes a lot out of. Party makes a lot out of. But that Shanghai the nationalist party But that Shanghai the nationalist party But that Shanghai the nationalist party who was Ma's great rival also made a lot who was Ma's great rival also made a lot who was Ma's great rival also made a lot out of and it has a partial basis in out of and it has a partial basis in out of and it has a partial basis in fact was that from the middle of the fact was that from the middle of the fact was that from the middle of the 19th century to the middle of the 20th 19th century to the middle of the 20th 19th century to the middle of the 20th century China which had been this strong century China which had been this strong century China which had been this strong force in the world got bullied and force in the world got bullied and force in the world got bullied and nibbled away at by foreign powers and nibbled away at by foreign powers and nibbled away at by foreign powers and it's important to realize there are it's important to realize there are it's important to realize there are elements of that story that are very elements of that story that are very elements of that story that are very true and the answer they had is that true and the answer they had is that true and the answer they had is that under my watch that's not going to under my watch that's not going to under my watch that's not going to happen and the reason why my party happen and the reason why my party happen and the reason why my party deserves to rule is because it can deserves to rule is because it can deserves to rule is because it can reassert China's place in the world. And reassert China's place in the world. And reassert China's place in the world. And both the nationalist party and the both the nationalist party and the both the nationalist party and the communist communist communist party predicated themselves on this kind party predicated themselves on this kind party predicated themselves on this kind of nationalistic story of being in a of nationalistic story of being in a of nationalistic story of being in a position to prevent that from happening position to prevent that from happening position to prevent that from happening again. This is a a bit of a tricky again. This is a a bit of a tricky again. This is a a bit of a tricky question, but is it

question, but is it question, but is it safe for safe for safe for journalists, for folks who write journalists, for folks who write journalists, for folks who write excellent books about the topic to uh excellent books about the topic to uh excellent books about the topic to uh travel to China? I think there are all travel to China? I think there are all travel to China? I think there are all kinds of different things about safety kinds of different things about safety kinds of different things about safety or not. I think until recently at least or not. I think until recently at least or not. I think until recently at least the people who were most vulnerable were the people who were most vulnerable were the people who were most vulnerable were um people of Chinese descent uh people um people of Chinese descent uh people um people of Chinese descent uh people originally from China who had gone originally from China who had gone originally from China who had gone abroad and coming back or even people abroad and coming back or even people abroad and coming back or even people who were um you know Chinese Americans who were um you know Chinese Americans who were um you know Chinese Americans who went there there was a higher sort who went there there was a higher sort who went there there was a higher sort of expectation that they should be on of expectation that they should be on of expectation that they should be on board. So you had early cases. My friend board. So you had early cases. My friend board. So you had early cases. My friend Melissa Chan was an early person kicked Melissa Chan was an early person kicked Melissa Chan was an early person kicked out when she was working for Alazer and out when she was working for Alazer and out when she was working for Alazer and reporting on Shinjiang. So that's one reporting on Shinjiang. So that's one reporting on Shinjiang. So that's one kind of person who was vulnerable kind of person who was vulnerable kind of person who was vulnerable because of this expectation that they because of this expectation that they because of this expectation that they should be somehow more loyal. Another should be somehow more loyal. Another should be somehow more loyal. Another kind of person who was vulnerable or kind of person who was vulnerable or kind of person who was vulnerable or this case more likely to be blocked from this case more likely to be blocked from this case more likely to be blocked from China. They there's a the communist China. They there's a the communist China. They there's a the communist party is particularly concerned about party is particularly concerned about party is particularly concerned about people from outside of China who are people from outside of China who are people from outside of China who are amplifying the voices of people within amplifying the voices of people within amplifying the voices of people within China or exiles from China who the China or exiles from China who the China or exiles from China who the government would like to to silence. So government would like to to silence. So government would like to to silence. So the Dalai Lama you had scholars who the Dalai Lama you had scholars who the Dalai Lama you had scholars who worked on Tibet and had connections to worked on Tibet and had connections to worked on Tibet and had connections to Dalai Lama were early people to have Dalai Lama were early people to have Dalai Lama were early people to have trouble going to the PRC. Then scholars trouble going to the PRC. Then scholars trouble going to the PRC. Then scholars who worked on Shinjang and were who worked on Shinjang and were who worked on Shinjang and were connected to weaguers. But there also connected to weaguers. But there also connected to weaguers. But there also were people who were sort of personally

were people who were sort of personally were people who were sort of personally connected to dissident or exiles who connected to dissident or exiles who connected to dissident or exiles who would amplify their voices would would amplify their voices would would amplify their voices would translate their work would would promote translate their work would would promote translate their work would would promote them that then it wasn't about them that then it wasn't about them that then it wasn't about necessarily danger if you got in China necessarily danger if you got in China necessarily danger if you got in China but you were more likely to be denied a but you were more likely to be denied a but you were more likely to be denied a visa if you were the kind of person who visa if you were the kind of person who visa if you were the kind of person who was doing that. So, I wrote critical was doing that. So, I wrote critical was doing that. So, I wrote critical op-eds about the Chinese Communist op-eds about the Chinese Communist op-eds about the Chinese Communist Party. I published them in some Party. I published them in some Party. I published them in some high-profile places. I've written a lot high-profile places. I've written a lot high-profile places. I've written a lot about Tiana, wrote about human rights about Tiana, wrote about human rights about Tiana, wrote about human rights issues, all that. And I kept getting issues, all that. And I kept getting issues, all that. And I kept getting visas to go to China. I testified to a visas to go to China. I testified to a visas to go to China. I testified to a congressional executive joint committee congressional executive joint committee congressional executive joint committee on China, about the Tiana protests on on China, about the Tiana protests on on China, about the Tiana protests on the 25th anniversary of it. And some the 25th anniversary of it. And some the 25th anniversary of it. And some people said, "Oh, that's the kind of people said, "Oh, that's the kind of people said, "Oh, that's the kind of thing that would lead to you not getting thing that would lead to you not getting thing that would lead to you not getting a visa." I got a visa right after that. a visa." I got a visa right after that. a visa." I got a visa right after that. Uh now I think it might be different. Uh now I think it might be different. Uh now I think it might be different. Now some of these expectations have been Now some of these expectations have been Now some of these expectations have been changed. There have been people who've changed. There have been people who've changed. There have been people who've been very surprisingly gotten in been very surprisingly gotten in been very surprisingly gotten in trouble. These two Canadians who were trouble. These two Canadians who were trouble. These two Canadians who were clearly it was a kind of tit fortat clearly it was a kind of tit fortat clearly it was a kind of tit fortat partly because of tech maven's relative partly because of tech maven's relative partly because of tech maven's relative being held in Canada. So it was kind of being held in Canada. So it was kind of being held in Canada. So it was kind of there. It was also not picking a fight there. It was also not picking a fight there. It was also not picking a fight with Americans. But there were certain with Americans. But there were certain with Americans. But there were certain kinds of things that you could map out kinds of things that you could map out kinds of things that you could map out what was the riskiest thing to do. And what was the riskiest thing to do. And what was the riskiest thing to do. And so I went in the 2010s having written so I went in the 2010s having written so I went in the 2010s having written you know forcefully about Tanamean and I you know forcefully about Tanamean and I you know forcefully about Tanamean and I didn't feel dangerous. I mean I felt didn't feel dangerous. I mean I felt didn't feel dangerous. I mean I felt there was an awareness in some cases of there was an awareness in some cases of there was an awareness in some cases of what if I was giving a public talk there what if I was giving a public talk there what if I was giving a public talk there was awareness of what it was. There was

was awareness of what it was. There was was awareness of what it was. There was sometimes sometimes sometimes um you didn't want to get your um you didn't want to get your um you didn't want to get your host who had brought you to a university host who had brought you to a university host who had brought you to a university in trouble by saying something that in trouble by saying something that in trouble by saying something that would get them in trouble. I think it would get them in trouble. I think it would get them in trouble. I think it was often that the you were more was often that the you were more was often that the you were more vulnerable if you were within China or vulnerable if you were within China or vulnerable if you were within China or you were connected China in different you were connected China in different you were connected China in different ways. For me, it's been confusing these ways. For me, it's been confusing these ways. For me, it's been confusing these last few years. I wrote one piece about last few years. I wrote one piece about last few years. I wrote one piece about this about I'm I'm not going to any part this about I'm I'm not going to any part this about I'm I'm not going to any part of the PRC for the time being, but I of the PRC for the time being, but I of the PRC for the time being, but I always thought that Hong Kong was a always thought that Hong Kong was a always thought that Hong Kong was a place that I'd be free to go even if the place that I'd be free to go even if the place that I'd be free to go even if the things got difficult. I didn't get a things got difficult. I didn't get a things got difficult. I didn't get a visa for the mainland. You didn't need a visa for the mainland. You didn't need a visa for the mainland. You didn't need a visa for Hong Kong. visa for Hong Kong. visa for Hong Kong. But with Hong But with Hong But with Hong Kong, with the mainland, I had kept a Kong, with the mainland, I had kept a Kong, with the mainland, I had kept a kind of distance from the dissident that kind of distance from the dissident that kind of distance from the dissident that I was writing about. With Hong Kong, I I was writing about. With Hong Kong, I I was writing about. With Hong Kong, I felt that these rules kind of didn't felt that these rules kind of didn't felt that these rules kind of didn't apply and I was more connected to them, apply and I was more connected to them, apply and I was more connected to them, um, more friends with some of um, more friends with some of um, more friends with some of them. And then with this crackdown them. And then with this crackdown them. And then with this crackdown that's come on Hong Kong and they're that's come on Hong Kong and they're that's come on Hong Kong and they're exiles from Hong Kong who have bounties exiles from Hong Kong who have bounties exiles from Hong Kong who have bounties on their heads. And so now I feel that, on their heads. And so now I feel that, on their heads. And so now I feel that, you know, it's not necessarily that you know, it's not necessarily that you know, it's not necessarily that anything would happen to me if I went to anything would happen to me if I went to anything would happen to me if I went to Hong Kong, but I feel I would be very Hong Kong, but I feel I would be very Hong Kong, but I feel I would be very closely watched. And so I wouldn't want closely watched. And so I wouldn't want closely watched. And so I wouldn't want to meet with some of my my friends there to meet with some of my my friends there to meet with some of my my friends there who aren't this highprofile. So I don't who aren't this highprofile. So I don't who aren't this highprofile. So I don't want to go to a place want to go to a place want to go to a place where I would feel that I was toxic in where I would feel that I was toxic in where I would feel that I was toxic in some way, right? One, you're walking on some way, right? One, you're walking on some way, right? One, you're walking on eggshells, and two, you can get others eggshells, and two, you can get others eggshells, and two, you can get others in in in trouble. That kind of dynamic is trouble. That kind of dynamic is trouble. That kind of dynamic is complicated. So it's fascinating that complicated. So it's fascinating that complicated. So it's fascinating that Hong Kong is now part of that calculus.

Hong Kong is now part of that calculus. Hong Kong is now part of that calculus. So, I've gotten a chance to speak to a So, I've gotten a chance to speak to a So, I've gotten a chance to speak to a bunch of world leaders. Do you think bunch of world leaders. Do you think bunch of world leaders. Do you think it's possible that I would be able to do it's possible that I would be able to do it's possible that I would be able to do an interview with Xi Jinping? an interview with Xi Jinping? an interview with Xi Jinping? If you do, I would I would be very If you do, I would I would be very If you do, I would I would be very pleased because I could watch that pleased because I could watch that pleased because I could watch that interview and get some insights about um interview and get some insights about um interview and get some insights about um she which have been very hard to get. I she which have been very hard to get. I she which have been very hard to get. I mean, it's been they're really mean, it's been they're really mean, it's been they're really difficult. There have been very few difficult. There have been very few difficult. There have been very few um very few discussion. He doesn't meet um very few discussion. He doesn't meet um very few discussion. He doesn't meet with he doesn't give press conferences. with he doesn't give press conferences. with he doesn't give press conferences. There's variety of things and this is There's variety of things and this is There's variety of things and this is this is different from some of his this is different from some of his this is different from some of his predecessors. Um Jang predecessors. Um Jang predecessors. Um Jang Zamin famously was interviewed by Zamin famously was interviewed by Zamin famously was interviewed by Barbara Walters and asked about Tanaman Barbara Walters and asked about Tanaman Barbara Walters and asked about Tanaman and he tried to make out that it wasn't and he tried to make out that it wasn't and he tried to make out that it wasn't a big deal. You know there the variety a big deal. You know there the variety a big deal. You know there the variety of things but he had relatively of things but he had relatively of things but he had relatively spontaneous conversations. I was going spontaneous conversations. I was going spontaneous conversations. I was going to say I he's the only Chinese leader to say I he's the only Chinese leader to say I he's the only Chinese leader I've met but I met him before he was a I've met but I met him before he was a I've met but I met him before he was a major major leader. he was the um party major major leader. he was the um party major major leader. he was the um party secretary or mayor of Shanghai. And it secretary or mayor of Shanghai. And it secretary or mayor of Shanghai. And it matters because the party secretary is matters because the party secretary is matters because the party secretary is the more important role. But anyway, he the more important role. But anyway, he the more important role. But anyway, he just met with a group of um foreign just met with a group of um foreign just met with a group of um foreign scholars who were going over to Shanghai scholars who were going over to Shanghai scholars who were going over to Shanghai in ' 88 for a conference on Shanghai in ' 88 for a conference on Shanghai in ' 88 for a conference on Shanghai history. And just to show you the limits history. And just to show you the limits history. And just to show you the limits of anybody who thinks they can predict of anybody who thinks they can predict of anybody who thinks they can predict what's going on in Chinese politics or I what's going on in Chinese politics or I what's going on in Chinese politics or I mean predictability is just very hard in mean predictability is just very hard in mean predictability is just very hard in general in the world. But I think the general in the world. But I think the general in the world. But I think the consensus among us and these were some consensus among us and these were some consensus among us and these were some of the most knowledgeable foreign of the most knowledgeable foreign of the most knowledgeable foreign scholars on China was this was somebody scholars on China was this was somebody scholars on China was this was somebody who really had probably topped out

who really had probably topped out who really had probably topped out because he was meeting with us. You because he was meeting with us. You because he was meeting with us. You know, he must not be heading anywhere up know, he must not be heading anywhere up know, he must not be heading anywhere up and then after Taname he becomes uh the and then after Taname he becomes uh the and then after Taname he becomes uh the top leader in China. But he he had a top leader in China. But he he had a top leader in China. But he he had a kind of you could pick things out from kind of you could pick things out from kind of you could pick things out from being in a room. He he liked to kind of being in a room. He he liked to kind of being in a room. He he liked to kind of show off his kind of cosmopolitanism. show off his kind of cosmopolitanism. show off his kind of cosmopolitanism. Xiinping talks, gives these speeches Xiinping talks, gives these speeches Xiinping talks, gives these speeches about all the foreign authors he likes about all the foreign authors he likes about all the foreign authors he likes and has read, but it's all very kind of and has read, but it's all very kind of and has read, but it's all very kind of scripted, at least in his his own head, scripted, at least in his his own head, scripted, at least in his his own head, too. It's very carefully done to present too. It's very carefully done to present too. It's very carefully done to present a certain image of himself. And we a certain image of himself. And we a certain image of himself. And we really don't get many senses of what really don't get many senses of what really don't get many senses of what he's like in unguarded moments or has he's like in unguarded moments or has he's like in unguarded moments or has them. And um sometimes we get the them. And um sometimes we get the them. And um sometimes we get the illusion of them. like there was an illusion of them. like there was an illusion of them. like there was an image of him and um Obama in their shirt image of him and um Obama in their shirt image of him and um Obama in their shirt sleeves at uh the Sunnylands meetings sleeves at uh the Sunnylands meetings sleeves at uh the Sunnylands meetings and and the photo would show and and the photo would show and and the photo would show them walking and talking and but there's them walking and talking and but there's them walking and talking and but there's no translator in the image and so like no translator in the image and so like no translator in the image and so like how are they talking what are the what's how are they talking what are the what's how are they talking what are the what's what language are they using how is this what language are they using how is this what language are they using how is this or is it just a kind of I mean there are or is it just a kind of I mean there are or is it just a kind of I mean there are of course there are exchanges with top of course there are exchanges with top of course there are exchanges with top leaders and you know Trump will say leaders and you know Trump will say leaders and you know Trump will say they're friends or these kinds of things they're friends or these kinds of things they're friends or these kinds of things or there's a language or there's a language or there's a language Xiinping can talk about somebody or some Xiinping can talk about somebody or some Xiinping can talk about somebody or some country being friend but we don't have a country being friend but we don't have a country being friend but we don't have a sense of these kinds of the the what sense of these kinds of the the what sense of these kinds of the the what makes him tick as a person. So, so maybe makes him tick as a person. So, so maybe makes him tick as a person. So, so maybe you should ask him about Ernest you should ask him about Ernest you should ask him about Ernest Hemingway and see if he really gets Hemingway and see if he really gets Hemingway and see if he really gets excited about him because the in the excited about him because the in the excited about him because the in the kind of generic things he talks about

kind of generic things he talks about kind of generic things he talks about all these you can feel him sort of all these you can feel him sort of all these you can feel him sort of ticking things off about oh yes I'm glad ticking things off about oh yes I'm glad ticking things off about oh yes I'm glad to be in England the country of to be in England the country of to be in England the country of Shakespeare and this and he goes off Shakespeare and this and he goes off Shakespeare and this and he goes off these set things but these set things but these set things but Hemingway there's some sense that you Hemingway there's some sense that you Hemingway there's some sense that you know he had some special feeling which know he had some special feeling which know he had some special feeling which fits in with some of the macho side that fits in with some of the macho side that fits in with some of the macho side that would be interesting he doesn't meion would be interesting he doesn't meion would be interesting he doesn't meion Orwell is one of his favorite British uh Orwell is one of his favorite British uh Orwell is one of his favorite British uh authors as much. He says he likes Victor authors as much. He says he likes Victor authors as much. He says he likes Victor Hugo a lot and that became a little Hugo a lot and that became a little Hugo a lot and that became a little tricky because Do you hear the people tricky because Do you hear the people tricky because Do you hear the people singing from lay miserable became one of singing from lay miserable became one of singing from lay miserable became one of the really um one of the protest songs the really um one of the protest songs the really um one of the protest songs in Hong Kong and how do you get in this in Hong Kong and how do you get in this in Hong Kong and how do you get in this position where you you know you and position where you you know you and position where you you know you and actually Victor actually Victor actually Victor Hugo is a a rare western author who's Hugo is a a rare western author who's Hugo is a a rare western author who's had a pretty steadily positive image in had a pretty steadily positive image in had a pretty steadily positive image in um China even under periods of um um China even under periods of um um China even under periods of um criticism of like all western authors criticism of like all western authors criticism of like all western authors problematic because Victor Hugo famously problematic because Victor Hugo famously problematic because Victor Hugo famously wrote a statement wrote a statement wrote a statement denouncing the European destruction of denouncing the European destruction of denouncing the European destruction of the old summer palace in Beijing in 1860 the old summer palace in Beijing in 1860 the old summer palace in Beijing in 1860 at the end of the second opium war. He at the end of the second opium war. He at the end of the second opium war. He said, "How can we claim to be civilized said, "How can we claim to be civilized said, "How can we claim to be civilized when we've destroyed one of the great when we've destroyed one of the great when we've destroyed one of the great creations of civilization?" So that kind creations of civilization?" So that kind creations of civilization?" So that kind of made him a kind of long-term friend of made him a kind of long-term friend of made him a kind of long-term friend to the Chinese nation. Mark Twain has to the Chinese nation. Mark Twain has to the Chinese nation. Mark Twain has had a pretty good reputation because he had a pretty good reputation because he had a pretty good reputation because he was a critic of American imperialism.

was a critic of American imperialism. was a critic of American imperialism. So, uh, but anyway, I think if you if So, uh, but anyway, I think if you if So, uh, but anyway, I think if you if you do get to talk to Xiinping, talk to you do get to talk to Xiinping, talk to you do get to talk to Xiinping, talk to him about Ernest Hemingway and, um, and him about Ernest Hemingway and, um, and him about Ernest Hemingway and, um, and Victor Hugo and I'll be curious to see Victor Hugo and I'll be curious to see Victor Hugo and I'll be curious to see if those were the ones who really if those were the ones who really if those were the ones who really resonated. One of the things, and it's a resonated. One of the things, and it's a resonated. One of the things, and it's a strange thing that I've become aware of strange thing that I've become aware of strange thing that I've become aware of having spoken with world leaders, I'm having spoken with world leaders, I'm having spoken with world leaders, I'm distinctly aware that there's a real distinctly aware that there's a real distinctly aware that there's a real possibility that the black box we possibility that the black box we possibility that the black box we mentioned that the Communist Party of mentioned that the Communist Party of mentioned that the Communist Party of China China China will listen to the words I'm saying now. will listen to the words I'm saying now. will listen to the words I'm saying now. And so I have to wonder how much that And so I have to wonder how much that And so I have to wonder how much that affects my possible uh touristlike trip affects my possible uh touristlike trip affects my possible uh touristlike trip to China because there's a difference to China because there's a difference to China because there's a difference between sort of an influencer that does between sort of an influencer that does between sort of an influencer that does fun things, plays video games and goes fun things, plays video games and goes fun things, plays video games and goes over to China and somebody that actually over to China and somebody that actually over to China and somebody that actually covers China to some degree uh whether covers China to some degree uh whether covers China to some degree uh whether critical or supportive or nuanced or any critical or supportive or nuanced or any critical or supportive or nuanced or any kind of way in the full spectrum of kind of way in the full spectrum of kind of way in the full spectrum of ideas you can have about China including ideas you can have about China including ideas you can have about China including Chinese history whether that's going to Chinese history whether that's going to Chinese history whether that's going to be seen be seen be seen uh uh carefully analyzed carefully and uh uh carefully analyzed carefully and uh uh carefully analyzed carefully and uh get have repercussions when you uh get have repercussions when you uh get have repercussions when you travel. So that's and because of the travel. So that's and because of the travel. So that's and because of the blackbox nature and because it's for me blackbox nature and because it's for me blackbox nature and because it's for me personally just a culture that's very personally just a culture that's very personally just a culture that's very different than anything I'm familiar different than anything I'm familiar different than anything I'm familiar with it uh makes me a bit nervous. It's with it uh makes me a bit nervous. It's with it uh makes me a bit nervous. It's certainly gotten harder for journalists certainly gotten harder for journalists certainly gotten harder for journalists to operate in China that there was a way

to operate in China that there was a way to operate in China that there was a way in which in which in which now journalists will look back to, you now journalists will look back to, you now journalists will look back to, you know, the early 2000s and it was really know, the early 2000s and it was really know, the early 2000s and it was really quite extraordinary what they could do. quite extraordinary what they could do. quite extraordinary what they could do. Well, you have a lot of you have a lot Well, you have a lot of you have a lot Well, you have a lot of you have a lot of listeners. I mean, I think there of listeners. I mean, I think there of listeners. I mean, I think there isn't that tight a watching of what an isn't that tight a watching of what an isn't that tight a watching of what an academic writes about the Chinese academic writes about the Chinese academic writes about the Chinese Communist Party, but there are certain Communist Party, but there are certain Communist Party, but there are certain things that that clearly are are kind of things that that clearly are are kind of things that that clearly are are kind of tightly policed. And one is um tightly policed. And one is um tightly policed. And one is um discussions of the private life of discussions of the private life of discussions of the private life of Chinese leaders and their their families Chinese leaders and their their families Chinese leaders and their their families and issues of kind of really following and issues of kind of really following and issues of kind of really following money trails for corruption and things money trails for corruption and things money trails for corruption and things like that. So there was the case of the like that. So there was the case of the like that. So there was the case of the Hong Kong book sellers who were Hong Kong book sellers who were Hong Kong book sellers who were kidnapped and one of them is still in a kidnapped and one of them is still in a kidnapped and one of them is still in a Chinese prison. He would be a good Chinese prison. He would be a good Chinese prison. He would be a good example is Guay Minhai, the kind of example is Guay Minhai, the kind of example is Guay Minhai, the kind of person who was vulnerable. He was born person who was vulnerable. He was born person who was vulnerable. He was born in China. He was actually a Swedish he in China. He was actually a Swedish he in China. He was actually a Swedish he is a Swedish citizen and he was spirited is a Swedish citizen and he was spirited is a Swedish citizen and he was spirited out of Thailand into the mainland. And out of Thailand into the mainland. And out of Thailand into the mainland. And the reason why he was um on the on the the reason why he was um on the on the the reason why he was um on the on the radar of the Communist Party was cuz the radar of the Communist Party was cuz the radar of the Communist Party was cuz the publishing house in Hong Kong that he publishing house in Hong Kong that he publishing house in Hong Kong that he was connected to was publishing works was connected to was publishing works was connected to was publishing works about the top tier of the Chinese about the top tier of the Chinese about the top tier of the Chinese Communist Party and contradicting the Communist Party and contradicting the Communist Party and contradicting the kind of vision of them as a certain kind kind of vision of them as a certain kind kind of vision of them as a certain kind of moral exemplars. And that's different of moral exemplars. And that's different of moral exemplars. And that's different from writing things about China has a from writing things about China has a from writing things about China has a bad human rights record or something bad human rights record or something bad human rights record or something like that in ways like I did. These were

like that in ways like I did. These were like that in ways like I did. These were books that were exposees uh or sort of books that were exposees uh or sort of books that were exposees uh or sort of some some of them kind of gossipy and some some of them kind of gossipy and some some of them kind of gossipy and lightly sourced, some of them much more lightly sourced, some of them much more lightly sourced, some of them much more serious, but they were about something serious, but they were about something serious, but they were about something that the Communist Party leadership that the Communist Party leadership that the Communist Party leadership wants to make a no-go zone. And I've wants to make a no-go zone. And I've wants to make a no-go zone. And I've thought sometimes that Xiinping seems to thought sometimes that Xiinping seems to thought sometimes that Xiinping seems to have lays majesty envy. I don't think have lays majesty envy. I don't think have lays majesty envy. I don't think it's kind of general it's kind of general it's kind of general criticisms of the Chinese Communist criticisms of the Chinese Communist criticisms of the Chinese Communist Party as a authoritarian Party as a authoritarian Party as a authoritarian um structure or place that doesn't um structure or place that doesn't um structure or place that doesn't deserve to rule in kind of very general deserve to rule in kind of very general deserve to rule in kind of very general terms. I don't think that's something terms. I don't think that's something terms. I don't think that's something that they then pick you up at the border that they then pick you up at the border that they then pick you up at the border and say, "Oh, no. We can't let that and say, "Oh, no. We can't let that and say, "Oh, no. We can't let that person in." cuz people are let in. It's person in." cuz people are let in. It's person in." cuz people are let in. It's and it's not rational. It's not a and it's not rational. It's not a and it's not rational. It's not a rational process. There are people rational process. There are people rational process. There are people who've been denied visas. It seems who've been denied visas. It seems who've been denied visas. It seems pretty pretty pretty inexplicable. There are things that now inexplicable. There are things that now inexplicable. There are things that now I think the the rules are changing very I think the the rules are changing very I think the the rules are changing very quickly all over the world for kinds of quickly all over the world for kinds of quickly all over the world for kinds of what's what's safe to say and do. Well, what's what's safe to say and do. Well, what's what's safe to say and do. Well, either way, I do know that the Communist either way, I do know that the Communist either way, I do know that the Communist Party and likely Ci Jinping himself Party and likely Ci Jinping himself Party and likely Ci Jinping himself watched watched watched uh my conversation with Prime Minister uh my conversation with Prime Minister uh my conversation with Prime Minister Modi. They responded to it and uh I do Modi. They responded to it and uh I do Modi. They responded to it and uh I do hope and I will definitely go to China hope and I will definitely go to China hope and I will definitely go to China and I hope to talk to Xi Jinping. It's a and I hope to talk to Xi Jinping. It's a and I hope to talk to Xi Jinping. It's a it's a fascinating historic ancient it's a fascinating historic ancient it's a fascinating historic ancient culture and is the major player on the culture and is the major player on the culture and is the major player on the world stage in the 21st century and it

world stage in the 21st century and it world stage in the 21st century and it would be fascinating to understand the would be fascinating to understand the would be fascinating to understand the mind of the leader of that great mind of the leader of that great mind of the leader of that great superpower. Speaking of leaders, what do superpower. Speaking of leaders, what do superpower. Speaking of leaders, what do we understand about the relationship we understand about the relationship we understand about the relationship between Xi Jinping and our current between Xi Jinping and our current between Xi Jinping and our current president of the United States, Donald president of the United States, Donald president of the United States, Donald Trump? Is there really a human Trump? Is there really a human Trump? Is there really a human connection? something approximating a connection? something approximating a connection? something approximating a friendship as they spoken about or is it friendship as they spoken about or is it friendship as they spoken about or is it just purely just purely just purely uh real politic uh real politic uh real politic maneuvering world leaders playing a game maneuvering world leaders playing a game maneuvering world leaders playing a game of chess or is it a bit of both? There's of chess or is it a bit of both? There's of chess or is it a bit of both? There's a degree to which I think there's some a degree to which I think there's some a degree to which I think there's some confusion about a couple things. I mean, confusion about a couple things. I mean, confusion about a couple things. I mean, one is when um when there's a sense that one is when um when there's a sense that one is when um when there's a sense that that um Trump is sort of uniquely tough that um Trump is sort of uniquely tough that um Trump is sort of uniquely tough on the Chinese Communist Party, he has on the Chinese Communist Party, he has on the Chinese Communist Party, he has periodically said things about praising periodically said things about praising periodically said things about praising Xiinping as a leader, even sort of Xiinping as a leader, even sort of Xiinping as a leader, even sort of having praising Xiinping's strength and having praising Xiinping's strength and having praising Xiinping's strength and things. So I think for some ways for the things. So I think for some ways for the things. So I think for some ways for the personality cult of personality cult of personality cult of Xiinping, some of this is kind of useful Xiinping, some of this is kind of useful Xiinping, some of this is kind of useful because um because um because um the story that the Chinese Communist the story that the Chinese Communist the story that the Chinese Communist Party they need to tell a story about Party they need to tell a story about Party they need to tell a story about why they deserve to keep ruling and one why they deserve to keep ruling and one why they deserve to keep ruling and one of their stories is that because the of their stories is that because the of their stories is that because the world is a dangerous place and there's world is a dangerous place and there's world is a dangerous place and there's not a lot of respect enough respect for not a lot of respect enough respect for not a lot of respect enough respect for China. So when there's very tough talk China. So when there's very tough talk China. So when there's very tough talk uh about China coming out of the White uh about China coming out of the White uh about China coming out of the White House, that's useful. And then the other House, that's useful. And then the other House, that's useful. And then the other part is about Xiinping being uh just the part is about Xiinping being uh just the part is about Xiinping being uh just the right person to have at the helm and

right person to have at the helm and right person to have at the helm and when there are discussions when there's when there are discussions when there's when there are discussions when there's praise for him and is showing toughness praise for him and is showing toughness praise for him and is showing toughness that also works well. So I think the the that also works well. So I think the the that also works well. So I think the the argument among at least some China argument among at least some China argument among at least some China specialists is to say the Chinese specialists is to say the Chinese specialists is to say the Chinese Communist Party likes predictability and Communist Party likes predictability and Communist Party likes predictability and Xiinping seems to like predictability in Xiinping seems to like predictability in Xiinping seems to like predictability in particular and particular and particular and um Donald Trump clearly isn't a um Donald Trump clearly isn't a um Donald Trump clearly isn't a predictable figure. So there might be a predictable figure. So there might be a predictable figure. So there might be a way in which this is way in which this is way in which this is unsettling. But I think the other part unsettling. But I think the other part unsettling. But I think the other part of it is the Chinese Communist Party of it is the Chinese Communist Party of it is the Chinese Communist Party wants under Xiinping. Xiinping wants wants under Xiinping. Xiinping wants wants under Xiinping. Xiinping wants to gain more allies around the world to to gain more allies around the world to to gain more allies around the world to be seen with more respect around the be seen with more respect around the be seen with more respect around the world and at the moment is in a position world and at the moment is in a position world and at the moment is in a position where he can say he can present himself where he can say he can present himself where he can say he can present himself as an orderly, thoughtful, gradualist as an orderly, thoughtful, gradualist as an orderly, thoughtful, gradualist figure. In some ways, I think as much as figure. In some ways, I think as much as figure. In some ways, I think as much as there is tension between um between the there is tension between um between the there is tension between um between the two capitals, there's a way that um two capitals, there's a way that um two capitals, there's a way that um things are going in a way that that things are going in a way that that things are going in a way that that benefits um Xiinping and can can seem benefits um Xiinping and can can seem benefits um Xiinping and can can seem good. That doesn't explain what their good. That doesn't explain what their good. That doesn't explain what their personal relationship is and how they personal relationship is and how they personal relationship is and how they actually see each other when they're in actually see each other when they're in actually see each other when they're in the room together and whether that the room together and whether that the room together and whether that matters or it's a part of the calculus matters or it's a part of the calculus matters or it's a part of the calculus at all because after all, they are at all because after all, they are at all because after all, they are leaders of superpowers. I think for leaders of superpowers. I think for leaders of superpowers. I think for Trump it matters. Personal relationships Trump it matters. Personal relationships Trump it matters. Personal relationships matter. But of course we see a lot. We

matter. But of course we see a lot. We matter. But of course we see a lot. We know a lot about Donald Trump. We know a know a lot about Donald Trump. We know a know a lot about Donald Trump. We know a lot about the White lot about the White lot about the White House. And for actually let me just say House. And for actually let me just say House. And for actually let me just say as a tangent for whatever you think as a tangent for whatever you think as a tangent for whatever you think about this particular White about this particular White about this particular White House, one of the things I really House, one of the things I really House, one of the things I really like is that every single member of the like is that every single member of the like is that every single member of the cabinet is willing to talk for many cabinet is willing to talk for many cabinet is willing to talk for many hours every single week, talk about what hours every single week, talk about what hours every single week, talk about what they think, how they see the world. Uh they think, how they see the world. Uh they think, how they see the world. Uh explain Donald Trump's explain Donald Trump's explain Donald Trump's approach. You know, it doesn't matter if approach. You know, it doesn't matter if approach. You know, it doesn't matter if you disagree with what they're saying. you disagree with what they're saying. you disagree with what they're saying. Maybe you say they're dishonest, maybe Maybe you say they're dishonest, maybe Maybe you say they're dishonest, maybe we're misrepresenting, but there's a lot we're misrepresenting, but there's a lot we're misrepresenting, but there's a lot of information. That's something we of information. That's something we of information. That's something we don't have with China. And it make as a don't have with China. And it make as a don't have with China. And it make as a fan of history for me. And as a fan of fan of history for me. And as a fan of fan of history for me. And as a fan of sort of deep political analysis of the sort of deep political analysis of the sort of deep political analysis of the world, I um it makes me sad because it's world, I um it makes me sad because it's world, I um it makes me sad because it's a very a very a very asymmetrical amount of information. asymmetrical amount of information. asymmetrical amount of information. But anyway, let me if I can lay out this But anyway, let me if I can lay out this But anyway, let me if I can lay out this particular complexity we're in now this particular complexity we're in now this particular complexity we're in now this trade war between us and China. Now trade war between us and China. Now trade war between us and China. Now you're not an economist. Uh in fact so you're not an economist. Uh in fact so you're not an economist. Uh in fact so you think deeply about history of you think deeply about history of you think deeply about history of peoples and history of China. You think peoples and history of China. You think peoples and history of China. You think about culture, you think about protests about culture, you think about protests about culture, you think about protests and the movements and so on. And there's and the movements and so on. And there's and the movements and so on. And there's some degree to which this trade war is some degree to which this trade war is some degree to which this trade war is less about the economics. Now that that less about the economics. Now that that less about the economics. Now that that layer is also very important and we layer is also very important and we layer is also very important and we could discuss it. Uh but there's could discuss it. Uh but there's could discuss it. Uh but there's also a deeply

also a deeply also a deeply cultural standoff almost happening here cultural standoff almost happening here cultural standoff almost happening here which would be interesting. So in April which would be interesting. So in April which would be interesting. So in April as people know Trump escalated a trade as people know Trump escalated a trade as people know Trump escalated a trade war with China using tariffs raising war with China using tariffs raising war with China using tariffs raising them on Chinese imports to 145%. Xi them on Chinese imports to 145%. Xi them on Chinese imports to 145%. Xi Jinping then responded by raising Jinping then responded by raising Jinping then responded by raising tariffs on US goods tariffs on US goods tariffs on US goods to to to 125% and suspending exports on certain 125% and suspending exports on certain 125% and suspending exports on certain rare earth minerals and magnus to the rare earth minerals and magnus to the rare earth minerals and magnus to the US. Uh the Chinese government also US. Uh the Chinese government also US. Uh the Chinese government also indicated it would limit the import of indicated it would limit the import of indicated it would limit the import of Hollywood films and restricted certain Hollywood films and restricted certain Hollywood films and restricted certain American companies from operating in American companies from operating in American companies from operating in China. China. China. Now after that, Xiinping broke silence Now after that, Xiinping broke silence Now after that, Xiinping broke silence on April 11th and again on April 14th on April 11th and again on April 14th on April 11th and again on April 14th and since basically saying that China is and since basically saying that China is and since basically saying that China is not backing down and uh positioned not backing down and uh positioned not backing down and uh positioned himself and China as the quote himself and China as the quote himself and China as the quote responsible superpower that promotes as responsible superpower that promotes as responsible superpower that promotes as you were saying uh that promotes sort of you were saying uh that promotes sort of you were saying uh that promotes sort of the reasonable multilateral global the reasonable multilateral global the reasonable multilateral global trading framework and a stable global trading framework and a stable global trading framework and a stable global supply chain.

supply chain. supply chain. He said, quote, "For over 70 years, He said, quote, "For over 70 years, He said, quote, "For over 70 years, China's progress has been built on China's progress has been built on China's progress has been built on self-reliance and hard work, never on self-reliance and hard work, never on self-reliance and hard work, never on handouts from others, and it remains handouts from others, and it remains handouts from others, and it remains unafraid of any unjust unafraid of any unjust unafraid of any unjust oppression." Also, he said, "There are oppression." Also, he said, "There are oppression." Also, he said, "There are no winners in a trade war, and going no winners in a trade war, and going no winners in a trade war, and going against the world will only lead to against the world will only lead to against the world will only lead to selfisolation." This was all said as selfisolation." This was all said as selfisolation." This was all said as part of a tour of Southeast Asia. and he part of a tour of Southeast Asia. and he part of a tour of Southeast Asia. and he was calling on China and the European was calling on China and the European was calling on China and the European Union to defend international rules Union to defend international rules Union to defend international rules opposing quoteun unilateral opposing quoteun unilateral opposing quoteun unilateral bullying. At the same time I saw that bullying. At the same time I saw that bullying. At the same time I saw that China's escalating internal propaganda China's escalating internal propaganda China's escalating internal propaganda including interestingly it would be uh including interestingly it would be uh including interestingly it would be uh nice to talk to you about it the the use nice to talk to you about it the the use nice to talk to you about it the the use of the ma dong 1953 speech during the of the ma dong 1953 speech during the of the ma dong 1953 speech during the Korean War where he says we will never Korean War where he says we will never Korean War where he says we will never yield. My question is with this yield. My question is with this yield. My question is with this standoff, who do you think will blink standoff, who do you think will blink standoff, who do you think will blink first? Where does this go? So, I think first? Where does this go? So, I think first? Where does this go? So, I think one persistent there there's a lot to one persistent there there's a lot to one persistent there there's a lot to unpack there for of a historian, too. I unpack there for of a historian, too. I unpack there for of a historian, too. I mean, I think that mean, I think that mean, I think that the reference the reference the reference to being bullied by a foreign power is to being bullied by a foreign power is to being bullied by a foreign power is something that comes up periodically and something that comes up periodically and something that comes up periodically and plays to this kind of notion of the plays to this kind of notion of the plays to this kind of notion of the hundred years of national humiliation hundred years of national humiliation hundred years of national humiliation that's been talked about by generations that's been talked about by generations that's been talked about by generations now of Chinese leaders to talk about now of Chinese leaders to talk about now of Chinese leaders to talk about that period from the 1840s to the 1940s.

that period from the 1840s to the 1940s. that period from the 1840s to the 1940s. There were a group of foreign powers who There were a group of foreign powers who There were a group of foreign powers who were involved in bullying China in one were involved in bullying China in one were involved in bullying China in one way or another. And you can selectively way or another. And you can selectively way or another. And you can selectively pick one or another. So there is a way pick one or another. So there is a way pick one or another. So there is a way in which this can be and if Xiinping in which this can be and if Xiinping in which this can be and if Xiinping gives that kind of speech in Southeast gives that kind of speech in Southeast gives that kind of speech in Southeast Asia, he's speaking to a place where Asia, he's speaking to a place where Asia, he's speaking to a place where there is knowledge of times of the past there is knowledge of times of the past there is knowledge of times of the past when the United States was a you know when the United States was a you know when the United States was a you know aggressive force there. It's also a part aggressive force there. It's also a part aggressive force there. It's also a part of the world where there have been times of the world where there have been times of the world where there have been times when China has been uh that. So it's when China has been uh that. So it's when China has been uh that. So it's there is a way of there is a way of there is a way of positioning visav other parts of the positioning visav other parts of the positioning visav other parts of the world that is crucial part of this that world that is crucial part of this that world that is crucial part of this that I think I guess it's you know I'm I think I guess it's you know I'm I think I guess it's you know I'm circling around it but there's a circling around it but there's a circling around it but there's a tendency in discussions of USChina tendency in discussions of USChina tendency in discussions of USChina relations to think about it in terms of relations to think about it in terms of relations to think about it in terms of a a a bilateral discussion or dispute even bilateral discussion or dispute even bilateral discussion or dispute even though time and though time and though time and again we realize again we realize again we realize that places other than the United States that places other than the United States that places other than the United States are key variables in these these things.

are key variables in these these things. are key variables in these these things. So the US and China being at odds under So the US and China being at odds under So the US and China being at odds under in the Mao in the Mao in the Mao era, what changed things dramatically era, what changed things dramatically era, what changed things dramatically for that wasn't so much even a change in for that wasn't so much even a change in for that wasn't so much even a change in um I mean yes Nixon was the one who went um I mean yes Nixon was the one who went um I mean yes Nixon was the one who went to China, but what made it possible for to China, but what made it possible for to China, but what made it possible for Nixon to go to China was that the Sinos Nixon to go to China was that the Sinos Nixon to go to China was that the Sinos Soviet split happened that actually it Soviet split happened that actually it Soviet split happened that actually it was tensions between China and the was tensions between China and the was tensions between China and the Soviet Union that altered equations for Soviet Union that altered equations for Soviet Union that altered equations for the United States and China. And another the United States and China. And another the United States and China. And another I was I happened to be in China in 1999 I was I happened to be in China in 1999 I was I happened to be in China in 1999 when NATO bombs hit the Chinese embassy when NATO bombs hit the Chinese embassy when NATO bombs hit the Chinese embassy in Belgrade and three Chinese citizens in Belgrade and three Chinese citizens in Belgrade and three Chinese citizens died and there was tremendous discontent died and there was tremendous discontent died and there was tremendous discontent about that, anger about that within about that, anger about that within about that, anger about that within China and there were some rare protests China and there were some rare protests China and there were some rare protests that the government allowed to happen that the government allowed to happen that the government allowed to happen but students were worked up about it and but students were worked up about it and but students were worked up about it and there were protests outside the American there were protests outside the American there were protests outside the American embassy and the British embassy and the British embassy and the British embassy and that happened and then in embassy and that happened and then in embassy and that happened and then in 2001 there was a spy I plane incident 2001 there was a spy I plane incident 2001 there was a spy I plane incident that happened and and so there was a lot that happened and and so there was a lot that happened and and so there was a lot of discussion that the next decade was of discussion that the next decade was of discussion that the next decade was going to see USChina going to see USChina going to see USChina tensions being the major force in the tensions being the major force in the tensions being the major force in the world. 9/11 happened. It was a dramatic world. 9/11 happened. It was a dramatic world. 9/11 happened. It was a dramatic reset for the trajectory that the US and reset for the trajectory that the US and reset for the trajectory that the US and China were on which is these are two China were on which is these are two China were on which is these are two totally different things. The Sinos totally different things. The Sinos totally different things. The Sinos Soviet split and 9/11. In both cases, no Soviet split and 9/11. In both cases, no Soviet split and 9/11. In both cases, no matter how careful you were at parsing, matter how careful you were at parsing, matter how careful you were at parsing, what was likely to be the next 5 years

what was likely to be the next 5 years what was likely to be the next 5 years for USChina relations get dramatically for USChina relations get dramatically for USChina relations get dramatically changed by something that happened that changed by something that happened that changed by something that happened that wasn't the US and China. And during in wasn't the US and China. And during in wasn't the US and China. And during in the current situation, the trade war, I the current situation, the trade war, I the current situation, the trade war, I know that it will be very important that know that it will be very important that know that it will be very important that China can increase try to increase sales China can increase try to increase sales China can increase try to increase sales of consumer products to Europe. This is of consumer products to Europe. This is of consumer products to Europe. This is something and something and something and that Europe's view about the United that Europe's view about the United that Europe's view about the United States is changing right now. These are States is changing right now. These are States is changing right now. These are all kinds of variables that are outside all kinds of variables that are outside all kinds of variables that are outside of simply Washington and Beijing as of simply Washington and Beijing as of simply Washington and Beijing as being the two actors. And sometimes being the two actors. And sometimes being the two actors. And sometimes Beijing can't control what's happening Beijing can't control what's happening Beijing can't control what's happening outside. And sometimes Washington can't. outside. And sometimes Washington can't. outside. And sometimes Washington can't. And so I guess this is simply saying And so I guess this is simply saying And so I guess this is simply saying that when you're watching and you're that when you're watching and you're that when you're watching and you're trying to keep the eye on the ball, it trying to keep the eye on the ball, it trying to keep the eye on the ball, it matters a lot what India's relationship matters a lot what India's relationship matters a lot what India's relationship to to to um China and the United States is. So um China and the United States is. So um China and the United States is. So all of these are happening there. So I all of these are happening there. So I all of these are happening there. So I think that's it that it's it's both think that's it that it's it's both think that's it that it's it's both tremendously important um what's going tremendously important um what's going tremendously important um what's going on between China and the United States, on between China and the United States, on between China and the United States, but it's important to remember that but it's important to remember that but it's important to remember that they're not the only players in this uh they're not the only players in this uh they're not the only players in this uh in this dynamic. Also on top of in this dynamic. Also on top of in this dynamic. Also on top of this, how how much cultural will is this, how how much cultural will is this, how how much cultural will is there to sort of not surrender to there to sort of not surrender to there to sort of not surrender to bullying? How much of that is there? So bullying? How much of that is there? So bullying? How much of that is there? So like you said, the century of like you said, the century of like you said, the century of humiliation both for Xi Jinping and the humiliation both for Xi Jinping and the humiliation both for Xi Jinping and the Chinese populace like willingness to go Chinese populace like willingness to go Chinese populace like willingness to go through some short-term pain to not be

through some short-term pain to not be through some short-term pain to not be humiliated. the story that's been humiliated. the story that's been humiliated. the story that's been intensively told about the past is intensively told about the past is intensively told about the past is something that that provides the something that that provides the something that that provides the possibility for this for this to matter possibility for this for this to matter possibility for this for this to matter a lot that it's something that's just so a lot that it's something that's just so a lot that it's something that's just so um it's so much a part of the um it's so much a part of the um it's so much a part of the legitimating story of the Chinese legitimating story of the Chinese legitimating story of the Chinese Communist Party and then you have to Communist Party and then you have to Communist Party and then you have to look at are there things that are look at are there things that are look at are there things that are happening that aid the Chinese Communist happening that aid the Chinese Communist happening that aid the Chinese Communist Party story. So the rise of Party story. So the rise of Party story. So the rise of um of what can seem like or is um of what can seem like or is um of what can seem like or is anti-Chinese sentiment within the United anti-Chinese sentiment within the United anti-Chinese sentiment within the United States can feed that propaganda story. States can feed that propaganda story. States can feed that propaganda story. And so certainly, you know, during um co And so certainly, you know, during um co And so certainly, you know, during um co there was a way there was a way there was a way that if you're if if you're the Chinese that if you're if if you're the Chinese that if you're if if you're the Chinese Communist Party and you're saying we get Communist Party and you're saying we get Communist Party and you're saying we get a disproportionate amount of blame for a disproportionate amount of blame for a disproportionate amount of blame for whatever happens in the world, then if whatever happens in the world, then if whatever happens in the world, then if there were things you could point to in there were things you could point to in there were things you could point to in the foreign media or from foreign the foreign media or from foreign the foreign media or from foreign governments, then that helps you. So I governments, then that helps you. So I governments, then that helps you. So I think you know there is a setup here think you know there is a setup here think you know there is a setup here where certainly for Xiinping I think the where certainly for Xiinping I think the where certainly for Xiinping I think the desire to not be seen weak is crucial.

desire to not be seen weak is crucial. desire to not be seen weak is crucial. Sometimes I wonder how much of these Sometimes I wonder how much of these Sometimes I wonder how much of these leaders operate on pure ego because leaders operate on pure ego because leaders operate on pure ego because politically and on a human level they politically and on a human level they politically and on a human level they don't want to come off as don't want to come off as don't want to come off as losers in a losers in a losers in a standoff versus coming to a economic standoff versus coming to a economic standoff versus coming to a economic win-win for both nations. And I worry that there is a real pride And I worry that there is a real pride here that the center of humiliation has here that the center of humiliation has here that the center of humiliation has deeply saturated the populace, the deeply saturated the populace, the deeply saturated the populace, the communist party this idea where they're communist party this idea where they're communist party this idea where they're not they're just not going to back down. not they're just not going to back down. not they're just not going to back down. And that I think will cause tremendous And that I think will cause tremendous And that I think will cause tremendous pain in the short term for United pain in the short term for United pain in the short term for United States. I think for China and the world States. I think for China and the world States. I think for China and the world because it completely because it completely because it completely uh transforms the supply chain of uh transforms the supply chain of uh transforms the supply chain of everything. We just there is a global everything. We just there is a global everything. We just there is a global nature. There is a multilateral nature nature. There is a multilateral nature nature. There is a multilateral nature of all the economic partnerships that of all the economic partnerships that of all the economic partnerships that are formed throughout the 21st century.

are formed throughout the 21st century. are formed throughout the 21st century. And this kind of uh protectionist And this kind of uh protectionist And this kind of uh protectionist nationalistic kind of ideology nationalistic kind of ideology nationalistic kind of ideology uh goes in the face of all of that and uh goes in the face of all of that and uh goes in the face of all of that and it's going to create a huge amount of it's going to create a huge amount of it's going to create a huge amount of pain like for regular pain like for regular pain like for regular Americans. But also I worry that this Americans. But also I worry that this Americans. But also I worry that this increases not decreases the chance of a increases not decreases the chance of a increases not decreases the chance of a global war or conflict of different global war or conflict of different global war or conflict of different kinds. Do you see a hopeful possibility kinds. Do you see a hopeful possibility kinds. Do you see a hopeful possibility for resolution for deescalation here? for resolution for deescalation here? for resolution for deescalation here? It's it's a it's a hard time to to It's it's a it's a hard time to to It's it's a it's a hard time to to figure out what what you can to to sort figure out what what you can to to sort figure out what what you can to to sort of hopeful hopeful angles. I mean, I of hopeful hopeful angles. I mean, I of hopeful hopeful angles. I mean, I guess what's hard to even balance these guess what's hard to even balance these guess what's hard to even balance these things out. So, one of the things that things out. So, one of the things that things out. So, one of the things that I've thought about when you talk about I've thought about when you talk about I've thought about when you talk about rising chances of war that often Taiwan rising chances of war that often Taiwan rising chances of war that often Taiwan comes to mind with with China. And one comes to mind with with China. And one comes to mind with with China. And one of the things that I've thought of is of the things that I've thought of is of the things that I've thought of is that that that for for Xiinping for for Xiinping for for Xiinping that military action against Taiwan that military action against Taiwan that military action against Taiwan would be increased by um a sense of would be increased by um a sense of would be increased by um a sense of desperation, a sense of losing desperation, a sense of losing desperation, a sense of losing popularity or a sense of um not having a popularity or a sense of um not having a popularity or a sense of um not having a good story to tell about why he and the good story to tell about why he and the good story to tell about why he and the party deserves to lead. So then there's party deserves to lead. So then there's party deserves to lead. So then there's a kind of way of playing to the national a kind of way of playing to the national a kind of way of playing to the national sentiments of some part of the sentiments of some part of the sentiments of some part of the population. So then in a sense it's population. So then in a sense it's population. So then in a sense it's hopeful that I think in some ways right hopeful that I think in some ways right hopeful that I think in some ways right now

now now Xiinping is not looking desperate in the Xiinping is not looking desperate in the Xiinping is not looking desperate in the eyes of the world. You know, he can if eyes of the world. You know, he can if eyes of the world. You know, he can if he can focus on he can focus on he can focus on potentially being seen more potentially being seen more potentially being seen more positively in other parts of the world positively in other parts of the world positively in other parts of the world by seeming like a kind of force for by seeming like a kind of force for by seeming like a kind of force for stability, seen as somebody who's stability, seen as somebody who's stability, seen as somebody who's supporting rather than challenging some supporting rather than challenging some supporting rather than challenging some elements of the global order. That elements of the global order. That elements of the global order. That might lessen the chances of a rash might lessen the chances of a rash might lessen the chances of a rash action toward Taiwan. That would be a action toward Taiwan. That would be a action toward Taiwan. That would be a kind of desperation move. The kind of desperation move. The kind of desperation move. The complicated thing here complicated thing here complicated thing here is that if he gives is that if he gives is that if he gives in, he can come off as the responsible in, he can come off as the responsible in, he can come off as the responsible person who cares about the world or he person who cares about the world or he person who cares about the world or he can come off weak. can come off weak. can come off weak. if he doesn't give in and even escalates if he doesn't give in and even escalates if he doesn't give in and even escalates the tariffs. although I think he said no the tariffs. although I think he said no the tariffs. although I think he said no more escalation on the China front. more escalation on the China front. more escalation on the China front. uh then he comes off strong but also the uh then he comes off strong but also the uh then he comes off strong but also the unre the equally unreasonable person who unre the equally unreasonable person who unre the equally unreasonable person who doesn't care about the world who only doesn't care about the world who only doesn't care about the world who only cares about uh the his own ego and maybe cares about uh the his own ego and maybe cares about uh the his own ego and maybe some aspect of the communist party some aspect of the communist party some aspect of the communist party maintaining power because just like with maintaining power because just like with maintaining power because just like with Tiana Square and the tank man you don't Tiana Square and the tank man you don't Tiana Square and the tank man you don't know once you make the decision how the know once you make the decision how the know once you make the decision how the world will read that decision what kind world will read that decision what kind world will read that decision what kind of things will become viral memes of things will become viral memes of things will become viral memes about the telling of that about the telling of that about the telling of that story. And of course, in part, I think

story. And of course, in part, I think story. And of course, in part, I think Donald Trump's reach is much wider Donald Trump's reach is much wider Donald Trump's reach is much wider because he's constantly out there. And I because he's constantly out there. And I because he's constantly out there. And I think there's a more reserved, less think there's a more reserved, less think there's a more reserved, less messaging out of Beijing. So, it's a messaging out of Beijing. So, it's a messaging out of Beijing. So, it's a really chaotic environment in which to really chaotic environment in which to really chaotic environment in which to make strong make strong make strong decisions. But since you brought it up, decisions. But since you brought it up, decisions. But since you brought it up, we'll talk about Hong Kong, but let's we'll talk about Hong Kong, but let's we'll talk about Hong Kong, but let's let's talk about Taiwan and maybe let's talk about Taiwan and maybe let's talk about Taiwan and maybe there's some parallels there. there's some parallels there. there's some parallels there. uh given Chiinping's emphasis on the uh given Chiinping's emphasis on the uh given Chiinping's emphasis on the great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation great rejuvenation of the Chinese nation and the unification with Taiwan and the unification with Taiwan and the unification with Taiwan uh being a a crucial part of his vision uh being a a crucial part of his vision uh being a a crucial part of his vision for for for China, what do you think are the chances China, what do you think are the chances China, what do you think are the chances and how willing is he to use force to um and how willing is he to use force to um and how willing is he to use force to um annex to forcibly gain control over annex to forcibly gain control over annex to forcibly gain control over Taiwan in the coming years? I'll frame Taiwan in the coming years? I'll frame Taiwan in the coming years? I'll frame it in a way that I think does lead into it in a way that I think does lead into it in a way that I think does lead into talking about Hong Kong because I think talking about Hong Kong because I think talking about Hong Kong because I think these are connected issues. In 1984 when these are connected issues. In 1984 when these are connected issues. In 1984 when the year, not the book this time. Um the year, not the book this time. Um the year, not the book this time. Um that's when a deal was struck basically that's when a deal was struck basically that's when a deal was struck basically between London and Beijing over what between London and Beijing over what between London and Beijing over what would happen to Hong Kong. So Hong would happen to Hong Kong. So Hong would happen to Hong Kong. So Hong Kong, you Hong Kong Island was became a Kong, you Hong Kong Island was became a Kong, you Hong Kong Island was became a British colony at the end of the first British colony at the end of the first British colony at the end of the first Opium War, the 1840s. And then Cowoon Opium War, the 1840s. And then Cowoon Opium War, the 1840s. And then Cowoon Peninsula near there became a British Peninsula near there became a British Peninsula near there became a British colony in the 1860 after the second colony in the 1860 after the second colony in the 1860 after the second Opium War. But then there was a large Opium War. But then there was a large Opium War. But then there was a large amount of territory of what we now think amount of territory of what we now think amount of territory of what we now think of as Hong Kong that called the New of as Hong Kong that called the New of as Hong Kong that called the New Territories that became under British Territories that became under British Territories that became under British control in

control in control in 1898, but was not a colony. It was a 1898, but was not a colony. It was a 1898, but was not a colony. It was a 99-year lease. So 1997 was this kind of 99-year lease. So 1997 was this kind of 99-year lease. So 1997 was this kind of expiration date for the lease of this expiration date for the lease of this expiration date for the lease of this large amount of territory of what we now large amount of territory of what we now large amount of territory of what we now think of as Hong Kong. It's a large think of as Hong Kong. It's a large think of as Hong Kong. It's a large amount of territory that the rest of amount of territory that the rest of amount of territory that the rest of Hong Kong, the Hong Kong Island and Koon Hong Kong, the Hong Kong Island and Koon Hong Kong, the Hong Kong Island and Koon depend on for energy, water, and food. depend on for energy, water, and food. depend on for energy, water, and food. So, it would been very hard to just give So, it would been very hard to just give So, it would been very hard to just give back, give those parts, transfer those back, give those parts, transfer those back, give those parts, transfer those parts to the People's Republic of China. parts to the People's Republic of China. parts to the People's Republic of China. So, a deal needed to be struck of what So, a deal needed to be struck of what So, a deal needed to be struck of what would happen in 1997. would happen in 1997. would happen in 1997. And And And um the deal was about transferring um the deal was about transferring um the deal was about transferring sovereignty of all of Hong Kong, all sovereignty of all of Hong Kong, all sovereignty of all of Hong Kong, all these parts to the People's Republic of these parts to the People's Republic of these parts to the People's Republic of China. And I carefully say transfer China. And I carefully say transfer China. And I carefully say transfer sovereignty, not give it back to the sovereignty, not give it back to the sovereignty, not give it back to the People's Republic of China, because it People's Republic of China, because it People's Republic of China, because it never belonged to the People's Republic never belonged to the People's Republic never belonged to the People's Republic of China. It was part of theQing Empire, of China. It was part of theQing Empire, of China. It was part of theQing Empire, which was a different country, a which was a different country, a which was a different country, a different state that then anyway. Um but different state that then anyway. Um but different state that then anyway. Um but this needed to be transferred and the this needed to be transferred and the this needed to be transferred and the deal that was struck was that you know deal that was struck was that you know deal that was struck was that you know the the London side wanted to do the the London side wanted to do the the London side wanted to do something to protect what was going to something to protect what was going to something to protect what was going to happen to the people there. And remember happen to the people there. And remember happen to the people there. And remember this is not what usually happens to this is not what usually happens to this is not what usually happens to colonies. Colonies usually go from being colonies. Colonies usually go from being colonies. Colonies usually go from being part of an empire to being some degree part of an empire to being some degree part of an empire to being some degree of self-governed.

of self-governed. of self-governed. And because of that, the Chinese And because of that, the Chinese And because of that, the Chinese representative at the UN insisted that representative at the UN insisted that representative at the UN insisted that Hong Kong was not a colony and Macau was Hong Kong was not a colony and Macau was Hong Kong was not a colony and Macau was not a colony because then they would not a colony because then they would not a colony because then they would have to be decolonized and go to have to be decolonized and go to have to be decolonized and go to independent. But so anyway, there was an independent. But so anyway, there was an independent. But so anyway, there was an understanding that something would have understanding that something would have understanding that something would have to happen in 1997 and London wanted some to happen in 1997 and London wanted some to happen in 1997 and London wanted some protection for the people uh in Hong protection for the people uh in Hong protection for the people uh in Hong Kong who they knew Kong who they knew Kong who they knew were living in a very different way than were living in a very different way than were living in a very different way than people lived under Communist Party rule. people lived under Communist Party rule. people lived under Communist Party rule. there was a different kind of rule of there was a different kind of rule of there was a different kind of rule of law. Um there was there wasn't democracy law. Um there was there wasn't democracy law. Um there was there wasn't democracy but there was some degree of input in but there was some degree of input in but there was some degree of input in governance. The colonial authority in governance. The colonial authority in governance. The colonial authority in Hong the power most powerful person in Hong the power most powerful person in Hong the power most powerful person in Hong Kong was appointed by London. After Hong Kong was appointed by London. After Hong Kong was appointed by London. After 1997 the most powerful person would 1997 the most powerful person would 1997 the most powerful person would probably be have to be somebody who probably be have to be somebody who probably be have to be somebody who could work with Beijing. But in this could work with Beijing. But in this could work with Beijing. But in this negotiation, something was come up with negotiation, something was come up with negotiation, something was come up with called one country, two called one country, two called one country, two systems. And Hong Kong would become part systems. And Hong Kong would become part systems. And Hong Kong would become part of the People's Republic of China in of the People's Republic of China in of the People's Republic of China in diplomatic terms. It wouldn't have its diplomatic terms. It wouldn't have its diplomatic terms. It wouldn't have its own military, but it would have its own own military, but it would have its own own military, but it would have its own system for 50 years was the idea from system for 50 years was the idea from system for 50 years was the idea from 1997 uh till 1997 uh till 1997 uh till 2047. There was a tension from the 2047. There was a tension from the 2047. There was a tension from the beginning over what that other system, beginning over what that other system, beginning over what that other system, what what was going to be the part that what what was going to be the part that what what was going to be the part that was going to be separate. And clearly was going to be separate. And clearly was going to be separate. And clearly everybody agreed would need to have a everybody agreed would need to have a everybody agreed would need to have a different economic system. It had different economic system. It had different economic system. It had capitalism. So people agreed on that.

capitalism. So people agreed on that. capitalism. So people agreed on that. But there was tension from the start of But there was tension from the start of But there was tension from the start of well what about legal? What about pol well what about legal? What about pol well what about legal? What about pol cultural and other things? And things cultural and other things? And things cultural and other things? And things were written into this deal which would were written into this deal which would were written into this deal which would be overtime Hong Kong people would be overtime Hong Kong people would be overtime Hong Kong people would govern Hong Kong. But Beijing thought govern Hong Kong. But Beijing thought govern Hong Kong. But Beijing thought they would govern Hong Kong but it would they would govern Hong Kong but it would they would govern Hong Kong but it would be a Hong Kong person who be a Hong Kong person who be a Hong Kong person who Beijing played a role in choosing. But Beijing played a role in choosing. But Beijing played a role in choosing. But the reason why Taiwan is relevant to all the reason why Taiwan is relevant to all the reason why Taiwan is relevant to all this is in this is in this is in 1984 as they were discussing this the 1984 as they were discussing this the 1984 as they were discussing this the Chinese Communist Party said and we'll Chinese Communist Party said and we'll Chinese Communist Party said and we'll come up with this arrangement and people come up with this arrangement and people come up with this arrangement and people in Taiwan should pay attention to it in Taiwan should pay attention to it in Taiwan should pay attention to it because it could provide a model for because it could provide a model for because it could provide a model for what could happen with them being what could happen with them being what could happen with them being absorbed into the People's Republic of absorbed into the People's Republic of absorbed into the People's Republic of China. So the idea was Beijing said, China. So the idea was Beijing said, China. So the idea was Beijing said, "Hey people in Taiwan, watch what "Hey people in Taiwan, watch what "Hey people in Taiwan, watch what happens to Hong Kong after 1997 and happens to Hong Kong after 1997 and happens to Hong Kong after 1997 and think about it as a model for what could think about it as a model for what could think about it as a model for what could happen with you." Saying like, "Watch happen with you." Saying like, "Watch happen with you." Saying like, "Watch how smoothly it will how smoothly it will how smoothly it will go." Over time, people in Hong Kong, go." Over time, people in Hong Kong, go." Over time, people in Hong Kong, people in Hong Kong started saying, people in Hong Kong started saying, people in Hong Kong started saying, "Well, wait, Beijing keeps sort of "Well, wait, Beijing keeps sort of "Well, wait, Beijing keeps sort of nibbling away at chipping away at these nibbling away at chipping away at these nibbling away at chipping away at these things that make us separate." And things that make us separate." And things that make us separate." And especially after especially after especially after 2008, especially a I mean there were 2008, especially a I mean there were 2008, especially a I mean there were reasons why Beijing went especially reasons why Beijing went especially reasons why Beijing went especially light on Hong Kong early 19 after light on Hong Kong early 19 after light on Hong Kong early 19 after 1997. They wanted to join Beijing wanted 1997. They wanted to join Beijing wanted 1997. They wanted to join Beijing wanted to join WTO. They wanted to host the to join WTO. They wanted to host the to join WTO. They wanted to host the Olympics. A big move against Hong Kong Olympics. A big move against Hong Kong Olympics. A big move against Hong Kong then could have endangered those things.

then could have endangered those things. then could have endangered those things. Also at that point the PRC was dependent Also at that point the PRC was dependent Also at that point the PRC was dependent heavily dependent on economics in Hong heavily dependent on economics in Hong heavily dependent on economics in Hong Kong, the Hong Kong economy. Also just Kong, the Hong Kong economy. Also just Kong, the Hong Kong economy. Also just something cuz I'm a university person. something cuz I'm a university person. something cuz I'm a university person. In 1997 when Hong Kong became part of In 1997 when Hong Kong became part of In 1997 when Hong Kong became part of the people's republic of China, Hong the people's republic of China, Hong the people's republic of China, Hong Kong then Hong Kong universities were Kong then Hong Kong universities were Kong then Hong Kong universities were the only universities in the PRC that the only universities in the PRC that the only universities in the PRC that were considered totally worldclass. Hong were considered totally worldclass. Hong were considered totally worldclass. Hong Kong University and Chinese University Kong University and Chinese University Kong University and Chinese University of Hong Kong were highly rated of Hong Kong were highly rated of Hong Kong were highly rated institutions. And at that point peing institutions. And at that point peing institutions. And at that point peing university, Beijing Beda and Shing Hua university, Beijing Beda and Shing Hua university, Beijing Beda and Shing Hua were not yet considered world-class were not yet considered world-class were not yet considered world-class institutions because they didn't have institutions because they didn't have institutions because they didn't have the kind of econom academic freedom and the kind of econom academic freedom and the kind of econom academic freedom and humanities that was at that point needed humanities that was at that point needed humanities that was at that point needed to be higher ratings. Over time, that to be higher ratings. Over time, that to be higher ratings. Over time, that difference started to go away because difference started to go away because difference started to go away because global ratings of universities stopped global ratings of universities stopped global ratings of universities stopped caring as much caring as much caring as much about academic freedom and things like about academic freedom and things like about academic freedom and things like that. And Beijing universities surpassed that. And Beijing universities surpassed that. And Beijing universities surpassed Hong Kong once. So by the 2010s when you Hong Kong once. So by the 2010s when you Hong Kong once. So by the 2010s when you started to have these protests in Hong started to have these protests in Hong started to have these protests in Hong Kong pushing back against what was Kong pushing back against what was Kong pushing back against what was called mainlandization and sort of called mainlandization and sort of called mainlandization and sort of clamping clamping clamping down, Hong Kong protesters in 2014 put down, Hong Kong protesters in 2014 put down, Hong Kong protesters in 2014 put up a a banner at the time when Beijing up a a banner at the time when Beijing up a a banner at the time when Beijing was holding the line against Hong Kong was holding the line against Hong Kong was holding the line against Hong Kong people wanted to have real elections to people wanted to have real elections to people wanted to have real elections to choose the chief executive rather than a choose the chief executive rather than a choose the chief executive rather than a kind of one where there were elections kind of one where there were elections kind of one where there were elections but only people who Beijing approved of but only people who Beijing approved of but only people who Beijing approved of basically could basically could basically could run. Hong Kong activists put up a banner run. Hong Kong activists put up a banner run. Hong Kong activists put up a banner saying, "Hey, Taiwan, look at Hong Kong.

saying, "Hey, Taiwan, look at Hong Kong. saying, "Hey, Taiwan, look at Hong Kong. Taiwan, beware. Hong Kong's today could Taiwan, beware. Hong Kong's today could Taiwan, beware. Hong Kong's today could be Taiwan's be Taiwan's be Taiwan's tomorrow." So, basically spinning the tomorrow." So, basically spinning the tomorrow." So, basically spinning the one country, two systems argument and one country, two systems argument and one country, two systems argument and saying, "Yeah, Taiwan, you should watch saying, "Yeah, Taiwan, you should watch saying, "Yeah, Taiwan, you should watch what happens here." what happens here." what happens here." So, one way to think of um Chinese So, one way to think of um Chinese So, one way to think of um Chinese leaders since Mao is that Mao and those leaders since Mao is that Mao and those leaders since Mao is that Mao and those after him wanted to make China bigger after him wanted to make China bigger after him wanted to make China bigger territorially than it had been to try to territorially than it had been to try to territorially than it had been to try to reclaim reclaim reclaim land. Under land. Under land. Under Mao, Tibet, which had been not part of Mao, Tibet, which had been not part of Mao, Tibet, which had been not part of of China, was became part of the of China, was became part of the of China, was became part of the People's Republic of China. Mao offered People's Republic of China. Mao offered People's Republic of China. Mao offered something a little bit like one country, something a little bit like one country, something a little bit like one country, two systems to it. Um Isabelle Hilton two systems to it. Um Isabelle Hilton two systems to it. Um Isabelle Hilton who writes wonderfully about Tibet has who writes wonderfully about Tibet has who writes wonderfully about Tibet has talked about the parallels with the Hong talked about the parallels with the Hong talked about the parallels with the Hong Kong system and some Hong Kong activists Kong system and some Hong Kong activists Kong system and some Hong Kong activists saw parallels as well. Tibet was saw parallels as well. Tibet was saw parallels as well. Tibet was supposed to go its own way as part of supposed to go its own way as part of supposed to go its own way as part of the People's Republic of China in the the People's Republic of China in the the People's Republic of China in the 1950s and then by 1950s and then by 1950s and then by 1959 the center got restless tried to 1959 the center got restless tried to 1959 the center got restless tried to interfere more local people push back interfere more local people push back interfere more local people push back against it and a workable what seemed against it and a workable what seemed against it and a workable what seemed like it might work out somehow against like it might work out somehow against like it might work out somehow against all all all odds explodes and the Daly Lama goes odds explodes and the Daly Lama goes odds explodes and the Daly Lama goes into exile. the Daly Lama who before into exile. the Daly Lama who before into exile. the Daly Lama who before that had thought maybe he and Mao could that had thought maybe he and Mao could that had thought maybe he and Mao could work together that didn't work together that didn't work together that didn't work. Hong Kong a new version of the work. Hong Kong a new version of the work. Hong Kong a new version of the experiment happens and it becomes clear experiment happens and it becomes clear experiment happens and it becomes clear in the 2010s that it's not really in the 2010s that it's not really in the 2010s that it's not really workable that the center is less patient

workable that the center is less patient workable that the center is less patient needs Hong Kong less the Hong Kong needs Hong Kong less the Hong Kong needs Hong Kong less the Hong Kong people feel it's more of a sort of now people feel it's more of a sort of now people feel it's more of a sort of now or never period to push back. You could or never period to push back. You could or never period to push back. You could say that Dang Xiaoping oversaw the deal say that Dang Xiaoping oversaw the deal say that Dang Xiaoping oversaw the deal that got Hong Kong and Macau to become that got Hong Kong and Macau to become that got Hong Kong and Macau to become part of the People's Republic of China. part of the People's Republic of China. part of the People's Republic of China. He could could point to that even though He could could point to that even though He could could point to that even though he died right before 1990 in during he died right before 1990 in during he died right before 1990 in during 1997. But he had achieved that kind of 1997. But he had achieved that kind of 1997. But he had achieved that kind of deal. deal. deal. Xiinping could argue, you could argue he Xiinping could argue, you could argue he Xiinping could argue, you could argue he finished the deal of making Hong Kong finished the deal of making Hong Kong finished the deal of making Hong Kong fully a part of the People's Republic of fully a part of the People's Republic of fully a part of the People's Republic of China doing away with this degree of China doing away with this degree of China doing away with this degree of difference. And you could say that that difference. And you could say that that difference. And you could say that that then is a stepping stone toward Taiwan. then is a stepping stone toward Taiwan. then is a stepping stone toward Taiwan. Or you could say that that and the South Or you could say that that and the South Or you could say that that and the South China Sea islands build China Sea islands build China Sea islands build up might be enough for him to put his up might be enough for him to put his up might be enough for him to put his stamp on having been the kind of leader stamp on having been the kind of leader stamp on having been the kind of leader who expanded Beijing's reach. He who expanded Beijing's reach. He who expanded Beijing's reach. He probably wants both I mean you know he probably wants both I mean you know he probably wants both I mean you know he probably to the extent he would like probably to the extent he would like probably to the extent he would like Taiwan to become part of the People's Taiwan to become part of the People's Taiwan to become part of the People's Republic of China which has never been Republic of China which has never been Republic of China which has never been but the hope was it could happen through but the hope was it could happen through but the hope was it could happen through a kind of more gradual absorption and a kind of more gradual absorption and a kind of more gradual absorption and people in Taiwan being willing to think people in Taiwan being willing to think people in Taiwan being willing to think of that and yet in part because of of that and yet in part because of of that and yet in part because of what's happened to places like Hong Kong what's happened to places like Hong Kong what's happened to places like Hong Kong there's a fiercer a stronger sense of there's a fiercer a stronger sense of there's a fiercer a stronger sense of Taiwan identity now than there was at an Taiwan identity now than there was at an Taiwan identity now than there was at an earlier point and less earlier point and less earlier point and less parties that are more willing parties that are more willing parties that are more willing to try to negotiate some kind

to try to negotiate some kind to try to negotiate some kind of tighter connection with the PRC are of tighter connection with the PRC are of tighter connection with the PRC are often doing badly and elections there often doing badly and elections there often doing badly and elections there because of this of this because of this of this because of this of this mood. 2047 is 50 years from the 1997 mood. 2047 is 50 years from the 1997 mood. 2047 is 50 years from the 1997 handover that you were talking about handover that you were talking about handover that you were talking about with Hong Kong. On top of that, with Hong Kong. On top of that, with Hong Kong. On top of that, 2049 is 100 years from now taking power. 2049 is 100 years from now taking power. 2049 is 100 years from now taking power. It feels like at that moment China could It feels like at that moment China could It feels like at that moment China could take Taiwan because it does seem that take Taiwan because it does seem that take Taiwan because it does seem that there's a kind of u value for history in there's a kind of u value for history in there's a kind of u value for history in China and they they take these dates China and they they take these dates China and they they take these dates very seriously. On the other hand, as very seriously. On the other hand, as very seriously. On the other hand, as you have studied, there is some tensions you have studied, there is some tensions you have studied, there is some tensions and displeasure and and displeasure and and displeasure and protests, some of the biggest in human protests, some of the biggest in human protests, some of the biggest in human history in Hong Kong. And so like put history in Hong Kong. And so like put history in Hong Kong. And so like put all of that together and so many all of that together and so many all of that together and so many possible trajectories of human history possible trajectories of human history possible trajectories of human history can happen here. Yeah. I mean I'm can happen here. Yeah. I mean I'm can happen here. Yeah. I mean I'm particularly interested in youth particularly interested in youth particularly interested in youth movements movements movements and one of the things about I think and one of the things about I think and one of the things about I think generation is such an important factor I generation is such an important factor I generation is such an important factor I mean people know that generation is mean people know that generation is mean people know that generation is important but somehow sometimes people think that you somehow sometimes people think that you know if you divide people up into know if you divide people up into know if you divide people up into economic groups you divide people up economic groups you divide people up economic groups you divide people up into racial or ethnic class that that into racial or ethnic class that that into racial or ethnic class that that groups that that somehow is more groups that that somehow is more groups that that somehow is more tangible but I think with things like tangible but I think with things like tangible but I think with things like the Hong Kong protests that there was a the Hong Kong protests that there was a the Hong Kong protests that there was a process of what was seen as mainlandization, of of what was seen as mainlandization, of Beijing just moving Beijing just moving Beijing just moving to make the things that were really to make the things that were really to make the things that were really distinctive about Hong Kong less

distinctive about Hong Kong less distinctive about Hong Kong less distinctive and minimizing the distinctive and minimizing the distinctive and minimizing the differences. And this process sped up differences. And this process sped up differences. And this process sped up dramatically after the 2019 protest. And dramatically after the 2019 protest. And dramatically after the 2019 protest. And there was just partly with the there was just partly with the there was just partly with the distraction of COVID and uh the distraction of COVID and uh the distraction of COVID and uh the distraction of the world, there was this distraction of the world, there was this distraction of the world, there was this imposition of this national security law imposition of this national security law imposition of this national security law that basically did away with the that basically did away with the that basically did away with the differences. And you had some people in differences. And you had some people in differences. And you had some people in um in the city of an older generation um in the city of an older generation um in the city of an older generation saying like why couldn't they have just saying like why couldn't they have just saying like why couldn't they have just been more patient? Why did why did these been more patient? Why did why did these been more patient? Why did why did these protests force the hand of the of the protests force the hand of the of the protests force the hand of the of the people in power? And but I think that people in power? And but I think that people in power? And but I think that age has a lot to do with it. That if age has a lot to do with it. That if age has a lot to do with it. That if there was this kind of gradual erosion there was this kind of gradual erosion there was this kind of gradual erosion or there was going to be this process of or there was going to be this process of or there was going to be this process of doing away with the things that made doing away with the things that made doing away with the things that made Hong Kong really special and that people Hong Kong really special and that people Hong Kong really special and that people loved passionately about it, including loved passionately about it, including loved passionately about it, including this sort of freer I mean freer press or this sort of freer I mean freer press or this sort of freer I mean freer press or just freer associational life and things just freer associational life and things just freer associational life and things like that. If you were 17 in 2019 and like that. If you were 17 in 2019 and like that. If you were 17 in 2019 and people were saying people were saying people were saying by by 2047 it will all be gone or maybe by by 2047 it will all be gone or maybe by by 2047 it will all be gone or maybe it'll even all be gone in 10 years then it'll even all be gone in 10 years then it'll even all be gone in 10 years then you're talking about living most of your you're talking about living most of your you're talking about living most of your life in a Hong Kong that isn't the Hong life in a Hong Kong that isn't the Hong life in a Hong Kong that isn't the Hong Kong you really love whereas if you were Kong you really love whereas if you were Kong you really love whereas if you were 80 you were like why not be p why why 80 you were like why not be p why why 80 you were like why not be p why why can't they be patient and people in can't they be patient and people in can't they be patient and people in between had all kinds of other things between had all kinds of other things between had all kinds of other things this is one thing that leads to often this is one thing that leads to often this is one thing that leads to often kind of logic ally there's a rationality kind of logic ally there's a rationality kind of logic ally there's a rationality toward younger people being more toward younger people being more toward younger people being more militant about certain kinds of things.

militant about certain kinds of things. militant about certain kinds of things. I think we see the same thing with with I think we see the same thing with with I think we see the same thing with with with climate change with climate with climate change with climate with climate change with climate activism. You're talking about whatever activism. You're talking about whatever activism. You're talking about whatever projection is of when things are going projection is of when things are going projection is of when things are going to get worse further down. The younger to get worse further down. The younger to get worse further down. The younger you are, the more of your life is going you are, the more of your life is going you are, the more of your life is going to live in that that scenario. And to live in that that scenario. And to live in that that scenario. And there's a logic for um more of that kind there's a logic for um more of that kind there's a logic for um more of that kind of impatience. There's also a sense of of impatience. There's also a sense of of impatience. There's also a sense of frustration with an older generation not frustration with an older generation not frustration with an older generation not having done enough to sort of resolve having done enough to sort of resolve having done enough to sort of resolve issues. These these are things with with issues. These these are things with with issues. These these are things with with Hong Kong with climate change with Hong Kong with climate change with Hong Kong with climate change with Thailand, the place that I've been Thailand, the place that I've been Thailand, the place that I've been working on lately. One of the slogans in working on lately. One of the slogans in working on lately. One of the slogans in 2020 when there was a push for Ber 2020 when there was a push for Ber 2020 when there was a push for Ber democracy was let it end with this democracy was let it end with this democracy was let it end with this generation which again expressed this generation which again expressed this generation which again expressed this kind of sense kind of sense kind of sense of gradual solutions are fine but we're of gradual solutions are fine but we're of gradual solutions are fine but we're carrying more of a burden of what we're carrying more of a burden of what we're carrying more of a burden of what we're going to live with there that so with going to live with there that so with going to live with there that so with 2019 also the protests I mean some of 2019 also the protests I mean some of 2019 also the protests I mean some of the things that were being chipped away the things that were being chipped away the things that were being chipped away at by Beijing in 2012 there was an at by Beijing in 2012 there was an at by Beijing in 2012 there was an effort to impose mainland style patriot effort to impose mainland style patriot effort to impose mainland style patriot IC education saying like, well, who IC education saying like, well, who IC education saying like, well, who cares how civics is taught, but actually cares how civics is taught, but actually cares how civics is taught, but actually that has a lot to do with the larger that has a lot to do with the larger that has a lot to do with the larger kind of political story. And the kind of political story. And the kind of political story. And the protesters that year, young people stood protesters that year, young people stood protesters that year, young people stood up and actually got the government to up and actually got the government to up and actually got the government to blink. The local authorities back down blink. The local authorities back down blink. The local authorities back down on that, bringing in mainland style on that, bringing in mainland style on that, bringing in mainland style education. 2014, the protest was to try education. 2014, the protest was to try education. 2014, the protest was to try to get full voting rights for the chief to get full voting rights for the chief to get full voting rights for the chief executive. The government didn't blink

executive. The government didn't blink executive. The government didn't blink on that. That was something where they on that. That was something where they on that. That was something where they held the line. It was a big colorful held the line. It was a big colorful held the line. It was a big colorful exciting protest, but in the end it hit exciting protest, but in the end it hit exciting protest, but in the end it hit a dead end. 2019 there even bigger a dead end. 2019 there even bigger a dead end. 2019 there even bigger protests and at first it protests and at first it protests and at first it seems like surprising what the issue seems like surprising what the issue seems like surprising what the issue was. The issue was an extradition law was. The issue was an extradition law was. The issue was an extradition law that would have people potentially who that would have people potentially who that would have people potentially who committed crimes in Hong Kong being committed crimes in Hong Kong being committed crimes in Hong Kong being tried for them if the mainland wanted tried for them if the mainland wanted tried for them if the mainland wanted them on the mainland. Now, the them on the mainland. Now, the them on the mainland. Now, the difference, they're really different difference, they're really different difference, they're really different court systems. Hong Kong never had uh court systems. Hong Kong never had uh court systems. Hong Kong never had uh democracy under the British, but it did democracy under the British, but it did democracy under the British, but it did have a stronger rule of law and more have a stronger rule of law and more have a stronger rule of law and more independent courts. Courts that independent courts. Courts that independent courts. Courts that sometimes decided things that went the sometimes decided things that went the sometimes decided things that went the other way than what the government other way than what the government other way than what the government wanted. And the mainland doesn't have wanted. And the mainland doesn't have wanted. And the mainland doesn't have that kind of court system. 98 99% that kind of court system. 98 99% that kind of court system. 98 99% conviction rate. In Hong Kong, if you're conviction rate. In Hong Kong, if you're conviction rate. In Hong Kong, if you're put on tri if you're arrested even for put on tri if you're arrested even for put on tri if you're arrested even for before 2020, if you were arrested even before 2020, if you were arrested even before 2020, if you were arrested even under a kind of politically related under a kind of politically related under a kind of politically related charge, you were out on bail and giving charge, you were out on bail and giving charge, you were out on bail and giving interviews with the press on the interviews with the press on the interviews with the press on the mainland that didn't happen. So I think mainland that didn't happen. So I think mainland that didn't happen. So I think in 2019 having even having lost the in 2019 having even having lost the in 2019 having even having lost the battle over battle over battle over voting this idea that okay we've really voting this idea that okay we've really voting this idea that okay we've really got to take a last stand to defend the got to take a last stand to defend the got to take a last stand to defend the rule of law and a kind of degree of rule of law and a kind of degree of rule of law and a kind of degree of separation of powers that doesn't sound separation of powers that doesn't sound separation of powers that doesn't sound like a clearly obvious thing for slogans like a clearly obvious thing for slogans like a clearly obvious thing for slogans but it is something that I think we've but it is something that I think we've but it is something that I think we've realized realized realized um in this country and in other

um in this country and in other um in this country and in other countries as well is something that can countries as well is something that can countries as well is something that can really be definitive about where things really be definitive about where things really be definitive about where things are uh politically. Well, well, I should are uh politically. Well, well, I should are uh politically. Well, well, I should also say I mean this it's more dramatic also say I mean this it's more dramatic also say I mean this it's more dramatic than it sounds with extradition because than it sounds with extradition because than it sounds with extradition because it gives power it gives power it gives power uh to mainland uh to mainland uh to mainland China to imprison sort of political China to imprison sort of political China to imprison sort of political activists and then try them in a very activists and then try them in a very activists and then try them in a very different way. So, it's not just even a different way. So, it's not just even a different way. So, it's not just even a different system. It it it gives another different system. It it it gives another different system. It it it gives another lever and a powerful one to punish lever and a powerful one to punish lever and a powerful one to punish people that speak against China. And you people that speak against China. And you people that speak against China. And you know, I mentioned the Hong Kong book know, I mentioned the Hong Kong book know, I mentioned the Hong Kong book sellers who were spirited over the sellers who were spirited over the sellers who were spirited over the border and one of them was still in border and one of them was still in border and one of them was still in prison for having published things in prison for having published things in prison for having published things in Hong Kong that it was supposed to be Hong Kong that it was supposed to be Hong Kong that it was supposed to be okay to publish in Hong Kong but not on okay to publish in Hong Kong but not on okay to publish in Hong Kong but not on the mainland and yet they ended up Yeah. the mainland and yet they ended up Yeah. the mainland and yet they ended up Yeah. being charged. So yeah, there was a being charged. So yeah, there was a being charged. So yeah, there was a clear sense that clear sense that clear sense that if if they didn't protest then would if if they didn't protest then would if if they didn't protest then would they be able to protest later? So this they be able to protest later? So this they be able to protest later? So this was one of maybe the biggest protests in was one of maybe the biggest protests in was one of maybe the biggest protests in history history history percentage-wise, you know, because what percentage-wise, you know, because what percentage-wise, you know, because what I'm what the reason why I kind of make I'm what the reason why I kind of make I'm what the reason why I kind of make that claim because there were a million that claim because there were a million that claim because there were a million to two million people in the biggest to two million people in the biggest to two million people in the biggest protests and this is a 7.5 million protests and this is a 7.5 million protests and this is a 7.5 million people. So if you think about what that people. So if you think about what that people. So if you think about what that means, it's it's just enormous. I mean means, it's it's just enormous. I mean means, it's it's just enormous. I mean yeah there were some very daring yeah there were some very daring yeah there were some very daring protests around that period the Hong protests around that period the Hong protests around that period the Hong Kong ones and the year after that you Kong ones and the year after that you Kong ones and the year after that you there were protests in other play but there were protests in other play but there were protests in other play but protest in Barus where again there was a protest in Barus where again there was a protest in Barus where again there was a very you know is taking big risks and

very you know is taking big risks and very you know is taking big risks and people but if people have a feeling that people but if people have a feeling that people but if people have a feeling that it's a kind of last moment so yeah these it's a kind of last moment so yeah these it's a kind of last moment so yeah these were these were giant and the protests were these were giant and the protests were these were giant and the protests kept growing and I think they kept kept growing and I think they kept kept growing and I think they kept growing in part and this happens why growing in part and this happens why growing in part and this happens why protests protests protests It's always hard to figure out, but in It's always hard to figure out, but in It's always hard to figure out, but in the case of Tiana Men and the case of of the case of Tiana Men and the case of of the case of Tiana Men and the case of of Hong Kong Hong Kong Hong Kong 2019, if people feel that the sort of 2019, if people feel that the sort of 2019, if people feel that the sort of protesters have the moral high ground in protesters have the moral high ground in protesters have the moral high ground in one way or another, and what what tipped one way or another, and what what tipped one way or another, and what what tipped it that way in Hong Kong, I think, was it that way in Hong Kong, I think, was it that way in Hong Kong, I think, was really that the police were using really really that the police were using really really that the police were using really strong armed methods and the government strong armed methods and the government strong armed methods and the government was never apologizing or never saying, was never apologizing or never saying, was never apologizing or never saying, "We need to investigate that." And I "We need to investigate that." And I "We need to investigate that." And I think what really kept the protest going think what really kept the protest going think what really kept the protest going was they became a they became a was they became a they became a was they became a they became a referendum on the right to protest referendum on the right to protest referendum on the right to protest itself. And the what I think the itself. And the what I think the itself. And the what I think the government hoped and what Beijing government hoped and what Beijing government hoped and what Beijing certainly hoped was that some of the certainly hoped was that some of the certainly hoped was that some of the protesters would start doing protesters would start doing protesters would start doing um militant actions, violent actions um militant actions, violent actions um militant actions, violent actions that would alienate the populace from that would alienate the populace from that would alienate the populace from the the the protests. And the protesters did do some protests. And the protesters did do some protests. And the protesters did do some of those things, but they tended to of those things, but they tended to of those things, but they tended to attack that was violence was often attack that was violence was often attack that was violence was often against property. And when there were against property. And when there were against property. And when there were occasionally violence against people, occasionally violence against people, occasionally violence against people, people within the movement would people within the movement would people within the movement would apologize or try to distance themselves apologize or try to distance themselves apologize or try to distance themselves from that. Meanwhile, the government was from that. Meanwhile, the government was from that. Meanwhile, the government was never apologizing or distancing itself never apologizing or distancing itself never apologizing or distancing itself from the police. And that created a from the police. And that created a from the police. And that created a dynamic where they had these enormous dynamic where they had these enormous dynamic where they had these enormous numbers of people who were previously on

numbers of people who were previously on numbers of people who were previously on the fence about things turning up for the fence about things turning up for the fence about things turning up for these protests and leading to them being these protests and leading to them being these protests and leading to them being giant. Even people and this was a city giant. Even people and this was a city giant. Even people and this was a city that sometime had the reputation that sometime had the reputation that sometime had the reputation misunderstood reputation as being one misunderstood reputation as being one misunderstood reputation as being one that where people didn't care that much that where people didn't care that much that where people didn't care that much about politics. They just focused on about politics. They just focused on about politics. They just focused on living a good life. But there was a living a good life. But there was a living a good life. But there was a sense that they wouldn't have that sense that they wouldn't have that sense that they wouldn't have that possibility if you had a police and the possibility if you had a police and the possibility if you had a police and the police used to be really highly police used to be really highly police used to be really highly respected in Hong Kong. But it lost respected in Hong Kong. But it lost respected in Hong Kong. But it lost that. Maybe you can speak to some of the that. Maybe you can speak to some of the that. Maybe you can speak to some of the dynamics of this. First of all, you were dynamics of this. First of all, you were dynamics of this. First of all, you were there in the early days as I understand. there in the early days as I understand. there in the early days as I understand. How does a protest of this scale explode as it did? Like it starts scale explode as it did? Like it starts with small groups of students of the with small groups of students of the with small groups of students of the youth. like maybe you can speak to in youth. like maybe you can speak to in youth. like maybe you can speak to in general from all the studying of youth general from all the studying of youth general from all the studying of youth protests. How does um maybe anger, maybe um ideological um ideological optimism, maybe the desire for optimism, maybe the desire for optimism, maybe the desire for revolution, for better times amongst a revolution, for better times amongst a revolution, for better times amongst a small group of students. How does that small group of students. How does that small group of students. How does that become a movement and how does that become a movement and how does that become a movement and how does that become a gigantic protest? So protests become a gigantic protest? So protests become a gigantic protest? So protests were one of the things that um were one of the things that um were one of the things that um uh some of the the most impressive books uh some of the the most impressive books uh some of the the most impressive books I've been reading and about other places I've been reading and about other places I've been reading and about other places have been have been have been emphasizing is that protests are often emphasizing is that protests are often emphasizing is that protests are often preceded by other protests that may seem

preceded by other protests that may seem preceded by other protests that may seem like dead ends but actually provide like dead ends but actually provide like dead ends but actually provide people with the kind of skills and people with the kind of skills and people with the kind of skills and scripts and repertoires to then carry scripts and repertoires to then carry scripts and repertoires to then carry out things on a larger scale after that. out things on a larger scale after that. out things on a larger scale after that. So you often get we we get captivated by So you often get we we get captivated by So you often get we we get captivated by a moment that seems to come out of a moment that seems to come out of a moment that seems to come out of nowhere but it often doesn't. It's been nowhere but it often doesn't. It's been nowhere but it often doesn't. It's been the ground has been laid by it can be by the ground has been laid by it can be by the ground has been laid by it can be by an earlier generation that passes on the an earlier generation that passes on the an earlier generation that passes on the stories about it or it can be just a few stories about it or it can be just a few stories about it or it can be just a few years before and sometimes a new years before and sometimes a new years before and sometimes a new generation will say look at what they generation will say look at what they generation will say look at what they did that was exciting but we want to put did that was exciting but we want to put did that was exciting but we want to put our mark on things by generation. So in our mark on things by generation. So in our mark on things by generation. So in there were these 1986 protests that sort there were these 1986 protests that sort there were these 1986 protests that sort of fizzled out that helped lay the of fizzled out that helped lay the of fizzled out that helped lay the groundwork for the 1989 ones. Um in Hong groundwork for the 1989 ones. Um in Hong groundwork for the 1989 ones. Um in Hong Kong there were the 2012 and Kong there were the 2012 and Kong there were the 2012 and 2014 ones that laid the groundwork for 2014 ones that laid the groundwork for 2014 ones that laid the groundwork for 2019. Some of the times it was the same 2019. Some of the times it was the same 2019. Some of the times it was the same activists out on the streets again. But activists out on the streets again. But activists out on the streets again. But sometimes it was a younger generation sometimes it was a younger generation sometimes it was a younger generation said yeah okay but that failed so what said yeah okay but that failed so what said yeah okay but that failed so what can we do differently? And we see this can we do differently? And we see this can we do differently? And we see this in in cases in the US and we see it in in cases in the US and we see it in in cases in the US and we see it around the world of this kind of the the around the world of this kind of the the around the world of this kind of the the percolating of things that happen percolating of things that happen percolating of things that happen sometimes in conversations that continue sometimes in conversations that continue sometimes in conversations that continue that happen. Um and sometimes you that happen. Um and sometimes you that happen. Um and sometimes you know failures can seem like dead ends know failures can seem like dead ends know failures can seem like dead ends but over a long period of time we see but over a long period of time we see but over a long period of time we see them as as as um as succeeding. And it them as as as um as succeeding. And it them as as as um as succeeding. And it can seem irrational. It can seem

can seem irrational. It can seem can seem irrational. It can seem irrational to try to do something after irrational to try to do something after irrational to try to do something after the last three times people have tried the last three times people have tried the last three times people have tried to do it have failed. But then to do it have failed. But then to do it have failed. But then occasionally history shows that the the occasionally history shows that the the occasionally history shows that the the third time or the fifth time or the 20th third time or the fifth time or the 20th third time or the fifth time or the 20th time actually does succeed. There's time actually does succeed. There's time actually does succeed. There's enough countervailing. You know in enough countervailing. You know in enough countervailing. You know in Eastern Europe you would say like in Eastern Europe you would say like in Eastern Europe you would say like in 1956 there was a rising it was crushed. 1956 there was a rising it was crushed. 1956 there was a rising it was crushed. In ' 68 there were rising was crushed. In ' 68 there were rising was crushed. In ' 68 there were rising was crushed. Poland 1981 it's martial law imposed. in Poland 1981 it's martial law imposed. in Poland 1981 it's martial law imposed. in 1989, what were East German protesters 1989, what were East German protesters 1989, what were East German protesters thinking when they poured out onto the thinking when they poured out onto the thinking when they poured out onto the streets? And then it happened. And then streets? And then it happened. And then streets? And then it happened. And then but this time it wasn't. So I think but this time it wasn't. So I think but this time it wasn't. So I think there's a way in there's a way in there's a way in which social movements are fundamentally which social movements are fundamentally which social movements are fundamentally un unpredictable and there are just un unpredictable and there are just un unpredictable and there are just times when against all seeming odds times when against all seeming odds times when against all seeming odds something that seemed like it would be something that seemed like it would be something that seemed like it would be there forever just no longer is. And there forever just no longer is. And there forever just no longer is. And that's the case you make for when when that's the case you make for when when that's the case you make for when when the odds seem the odds seem the odds seem impossible, it's still impossible, it's still impossible, it's still worthwhile. You know, it's it it doesn't worthwhile. You know, it's it it doesn't worthwhile. You know, it's it it doesn't mean that it will it will work. It mean that it will it will work. It mean that it will it will work. It doesn't mean that will work. But I think doesn't mean that will work. But I think doesn't mean that will work. But I think history has enough examples of things history has enough examples of things history has enough examples of things that you thought I mean this is you know that you thought I mean this is you know that you thought I mean this is you know and it it it explains why certain and it it it explains why certain and it it it explains why certain figures are so inspirational for figures are so inspirational for figures are so inspirational for generations of activists that you know generations of activists that you know generations of activists that you know people read there's a reason why people people read there's a reason why people people read there's a reason why people talk about Vaklov Havl whereas if Vakov talk about Vaklov Havl whereas if Vakov talk about Vaklov Havl whereas if Vakov Havl had died in

Havl had died in Havl had died in 1988 people would have said oh maybe he 1988 people would have said oh maybe he 1988 people would have said oh maybe he was maybe he was a great writer but his was maybe he was a great writer but his was maybe he was a great writer but his political project he didn't live to see political project he didn't live to see political project he didn't live to see uh come but then he lives to 89 and uh come but then he lives to 89 and uh come but then he lives to 89 and becomes you know against all becomes you know against all becomes you know against all expectations. So Rebecca Snith, she's expectations. So Rebecca Snith, she's expectations. So Rebecca Snith, she's got a new book, No Straight Road Takes got a new book, No Straight Road Takes got a new book, No Straight Road Takes You There: Essays for Uneven You There: Essays for Uneven You There: Essays for Uneven Terrain, and she's talking about taking Terrain, and she's talking about taking Terrain, and she's talking about taking a longer view of some struggles that a longer view of some struggles that a longer view of some struggles that seem seem seem um that seem that achieve things after um that seem that achieve things after um that seem that achieve things after the point when people might have the point when people might have the point when people might have imagined that they had run into dead imagined that they had run into dead imagined that they had run into dead ends. And she's talking about keeping ends. And she's talking about keeping ends. And she's talking about keeping your eye on the gains that happen even your eye on the gains that happen even your eye on the gains that happen even even incrementally. and the ways in even incrementally. and the ways in even incrementally. and the ways in which the need to take a longer term which the need to take a longer term which the need to take a longer term perspective on some of these things. And perspective on some of these things. And perspective on some of these things. And I think it's it's a strange thing I think it's it's a strange thing I think it's it's a strange thing because there's also often an impatience because there's also often an impatience because there's also often an impatience in movements of people wanting kind of in movements of people wanting kind of in movements of people wanting kind of immediate results. But as a historian immediate results. But as a historian immediate results. But as a historian looking at looking at situations, I looking at looking at situations, I looking at looking at situations, I mentioned sort of Eastern Europe and mentioned sort of Eastern Europe and mentioned sort of Eastern Europe and Central Europe, Central Europe, Central Europe, but Taiwan was a was a right-wing but Taiwan was a was a right-wing but Taiwan was a was a right-wing dictatorship under sort of a version of dictatorship under sort of a version of dictatorship under sort of a version of martial law for decades. And at each martial law for decades. And at each martial law for decades. And at each stage, it would seem that people stage, it would seem that people stage, it would seem that people struggling to change it um were on a struggling to change it um were on a struggling to change it um were on a quicksotic impossible kind of mission or quicksotic impossible kind of mission or quicksotic impossible kind of mission or South Korea was in a similar situation.

South Korea was in a similar situation. South Korea was in a similar situation. And then in the late 1980s, you start to And then in the late 1980s, you start to And then in the late 1980s, you start to have those things unravel. And it's have those things unravel. And it's have those things unravel. And it's partly because of a kind partly because of a kind partly because of a kind of steady resistance. It's partly of steady resistance. It's partly of steady resistance. It's partly because something in the world changes, because something in the world changes, because something in the world changes, but there's often a combination uh of but there's often a combination uh of but there's often a combination uh of those things. So, I'm I'm interested in those things. So, I'm I'm interested in those things. So, I'm I'm interested in that whole, you know, we we know that that whole, you know, we we know that that whole, you know, we we know that what happened in Hong Kong in the short what happened in Hong Kong in the short what happened in Hong Kong in the short run didn't didn't work, and I don't see run didn't didn't work, and I don't see run didn't didn't work, and I don't see a way in which the national security law a way in which the national security law a way in which the national security law is reversed or anything like that. is reversed or anything like that. is reversed or anything like that. But that doesn't mean But that doesn't mean But that doesn't mean that it that it that it was a completely impossible effort even was a completely impossible effort even was a completely impossible effort even though we know the result in that case though we know the result in that case though we know the result in that case was to have this this failure. So the was to have this this failure. So the was to have this this failure. So the protests are generally worthwhile. I protests are generally worthwhile. I protests are generally worthwhile. I mean they do give uh as as I look at the mean they do give uh as as I look at the mean they do give uh as as I look at the description of the migratory routes description of the migratory routes description of the migratory routes ideas ideas ideas take they do seed ideas in the minds of take they do seed ideas in the minds of take they do seed ideas in the minds of people and then they live with those people and then they live with those people and then they live with those ideas and they share those ideas they ideas and they share those ideas they ideas and they share those ideas they deliberate through those ideas they deliberate through those ideas they deliberate through those ideas they might travel to different places of the might travel to different places of the might travel to different places of the world and then those ideas return and world and then those ideas return and world and then those ideas return and rise up again and again and again uh rise up again and again and again uh rise up again and again and again uh there's two parts of the world that I there's two parts of the world that I there's two parts of the world that I think are fascinating and unpredictable. Uh so one is and unpredictable. Uh so one is Iran which the trajectory that place Iran which the trajectory that place Iran which the trajectory that place takes might have a completely takes might have a completely takes might have a completely transformative effect on the Middle transformative effect on the Middle transformative effect on the Middle East. Then the other one is China or the

East. Then the other one is China or the East. Then the other one is China or the protests whether it's in Taiwan or Hong protests whether it's in Taiwan or Hong protests whether it's in Taiwan or Hong Kong or maybe other influential parts of Kong or maybe other influential parts of Kong or maybe other influential parts of China. those ideas percolating up and up China. those ideas percolating up and up China. those ideas percolating up and up again might have a completely again might have a completely again might have a completely transformative effect on the world. So transformative effect on the world. So transformative effect on the world. So maybe this is another case where so the maybe this is another case where so the maybe this is another case where so the Chinese Communist Party people leaders Chinese Communist Party people leaders Chinese Communist Party people leaders in the Chinese Communist Party they do in the Chinese Communist Party they do in the Chinese Communist Party they do know about history and they care about know about history and they care about know about history and they care about history and one history they know is the history and one history they know is the history and one history they know is the Chinese Communist Party was almost Chinese Communist Party was almost Chinese Communist Party was almost destroyed in 1927. I mean, it was uh if destroyed in 1927. I mean, it was uh if destroyed in 1927. I mean, it was uh if you were taking odds on what are the you were taking odds on what are the you were taking odds on what are the chances that this rag tag sort of group chances that this rag tag sort of group chances that this rag tag sort of group that's being pursued that's being pursued that's being pursued um by Shanghai to try to determine and um by Shanghai to try to determine and um by Shanghai to try to determine and yet over time they somehow manage to yet over time they somehow manage to yet over time they somehow manage to ride it out and eventually come to ride it out and eventually come to ride it out and eventually come to power. There's there's a an awareness of power. There's there's a an awareness of power. There's there's a an awareness of the ways in which the seemingly the ways in which the seemingly the ways in which the seemingly impossible can happen. It doesn't mean impossible can happen. It doesn't mean impossible can happen. It doesn't mean it will. I mean this is why I think you it will. I mean this is why I think you it will. I mean this is why I think you know it's and and one of the really kind know it's and and one of the really kind know it's and and one of the really kind of tragic or heart-rending things is you of tragic or heart-rending things is you of tragic or heart-rending things is you can have situations in can have situations in can have situations in which which which movements that seem to be pursuing a an movements that seem to be pursuing a an movements that seem to be pursuing a an impossible end result. they achieve that impossible end result. they achieve that impossible end result. they achieve that result and then after another period the result and then after another period the result and then after another period the country goes into another really country goes into another really country goes into another really difficult period or the it seems that difficult period or the it seems that difficult period or the it seems that the the successes are being rolled back the the successes are being rolled back the the successes are being rolled back and um my new milk tea alliance book

and um my new milk tea alliance book and um my new milk tea alliance book that I've just written dedicated to two that I've just written dedicated to two that I've just written dedicated to two people who've lived through a variety of people who've lived through a variety of people who've lived through a variety of these things. One is a Burmese activist these things. One is a Burmese activist these things. One is a Burmese activist who was involved in a failed uprising in who was involved in a failed uprising in who was involved in a failed uprising in 1988. He then was an exile who didn't 1988. He then was an exile who didn't 1988. He then was an exile who didn't know whether he could ever see his know whether he could ever see his know whether he could ever see his brothers who he loves back in in Burma. brothers who he loves back in in Burma. brothers who he loves back in in Burma. And then something magical kind of And then something magical kind of And then something magical kind of changed and in 20 the 2010s it seemed changed and in 20 the 2010s it seemed changed and in 20 the 2010s it seemed that there was a kind of democratization that there was a kind of democratization that there was a kind of democratization that turned out to be a false dawn. He that turned out to be a false dawn. He that turned out to be a false dawn. He was able to go back and then and now was able to go back and then and now was able to go back and then and now he's again when there's been a a coup he's again when there's been a a coup he's again when there's been a a coup and a crackdown, he's now again cut off. and a crackdown, he's now again cut off. and a crackdown, he's now again cut off. And at one point I was asking him about And at one point I was asking him about And at one point I was asking him about his you know how he feels about this his you know how he feels about this his you know how he feels about this when he's still trying to sort of raise when he's still trying to sort of raise when he's still trying to sort of raise awareness globally about what's awareness globally about what's awareness globally about what's happening in Myar and he happening in Myar and he happening in Myar and he said I feel helpless but not hopeless I said I feel helpless but not hopeless I said I feel helpless but not hopeless I think how does somebody maintain hope in think how does somebody maintain hope in think how does somebody maintain hope in that and the other person I dedicated to that and the other person I dedicated to that and the other person I dedicated to Miklas Sarashti as a Hungarian friend of Miklas Sarashti as a Hungarian friend of Miklas Sarashti as a Hungarian friend of mine who was an activist before ' 89 and mine who was an activist before ' 89 and mine who was an activist before ' 89 and saw the um this amazing thing happen saw the um this amazing thing happen saw the um this amazing thing happen with communism a communist party rule with communism a communist party rule with communism a communist party rule ending. He was part of the process that ending. He was part of the process that ending. He was part of the process that came and he was friends with Havl and came and he was friends with Havl and came and he was friends with Havl and Havl's there and Poland's changing and Havl's there and Poland's changing and Havl's there and Poland's changing and all of this exhilarating moment but ends all of this exhilarating moment but ends all of this exhilarating moment but ends up being a critic of Orban and following up being a critic of Orban and following up being a critic of Orban and following a tightening of control of rolling back a tightening of control of rolling back a tightening of control of rolling back of many of the things that were of many of the things that were of many of the things that were victorious then. But this this kind of

victorious then. But this this kind of victorious then. But this this kind of the no straight road, you know, that the no straight road, you know, that the no straight road, you know, that actually there's something actually there's something actually there's something about it's it can be disquing when these about it's it can be disquing when these about it's it can be disquing when these unexpected things are blows to what you unexpected things are blows to what you unexpected things are blows to what you where you thought his direction history where you thought his direction history where you thought his direction history was going. But history just shows you was going. But history just shows you was going. But history just shows you that history doesn't have a direction. that history doesn't have a direction. that history doesn't have a direction. That's not there isn't a straight road. That's not there isn't a straight road. That's not there isn't a straight road. Yeah. And there's, you know, the Yeah. And there's, you know, the Yeah. And there's, you know, the idealism of youth can lead to things idealism of youth can lead to things idealism of youth can lead to things like the Russian revolution and then you like the Russian revolution and then you like the Russian revolution and then you get Stalin, we'll call it a war and the get Stalin, we'll call it a war and the get Stalin, we'll call it a war and the purges and all of that entailed. So a purges and all of that entailed. So a purges and all of that entailed. So a successful protest and a successful successful protest and a successful successful protest and a successful revolution might revolution might revolution might uh have unintended consequences that far uh have unintended consequences that far uh have unintended consequences that far overshadow whatever ideals and dreams overshadow whatever ideals and dreams overshadow whatever ideals and dreams you had fighting for the working class, you had fighting for the working class, you had fighting for the working class, whatever it was in that particular case. whatever it was in that particular case. whatever it was in that particular case. that can cause immeasurable that can cause immeasurable that can cause immeasurable suffering. So, it's there is no suffering. So, it's there is no suffering. So, it's there is no direction to history. Uh there's just direction to history. Uh there's just direction to history. Uh there's just some lessons we pick up along the way some lessons we pick up along the way some lessons we pick up along the way and we try to and we try to and we try to hopefully try to uh help humanity hopefully try to uh help humanity hopefully try to uh help humanity flourish and we barely know what we're flourish and we barely know what we're flourish and we barely know what we're doing and now we have nuclear weapons.

doing and now we have nuclear weapons. doing and now we have nuclear weapons. And some of it is also though people And some of it is also though people And some of it is also though people sometimes the people who I find really sometimes the people who I find really sometimes the people who I find really admirable. It's not about trying to admirable. It's not about trying to admirable. It's not about trying to create totalistic change but they focus create totalistic change but they focus create totalistic change but they focus on trying to do what they can with for on trying to do what they can with for on trying to do what they can with for the things they believe in within the things they believe in within the things they believe in within constrained constrained constrained circumstances. And in Thailand they've circumstances. And in Thailand they've circumstances. And in Thailand they've sort of hit a roadblock now again over sort of hit a roadblock now again over sort of hit a roadblock now again over kind of trying to bring about electoral kind of trying to bring about electoral kind of trying to bring about electoral change. a party that did really well was change. a party that did really well was change. a party that did really well was then disqualified. And the activists I then disqualified. And the activists I then disqualified. And the activists I know are focusing know are focusing know are focusing on local efforts to improve a on local efforts to improve a on local efforts to improve a neighborhood to keep a neighborhood from neighborhood to keep a neighborhood from neighborhood to keep a neighborhood from suffering from a kind of unthinking suffering from a kind of unthinking suffering from a kind of unthinking gentrification. They're thinking small. gentrification. They're thinking small. gentrification. They're thinking small. They're thinking sometimes about just They're thinking sometimes about just They're thinking sometimes about just what can we do to improve the life of what can we do to improve the life of what can we do to improve the life of people within certain how can we build people within certain how can we build people within certain how can we build how can we contribute to the kinds of how can we contribute to the kinds of how can we contribute to the kinds of social groups social groups social groups that might make some kind of incremental that might make some kind of incremental that might make some kind of incremental improvement to being the kind of world improvement to being the kind of world improvement to being the kind of world that we want to live in. People do that that we want to live in. People do that that we want to live in. People do that on in all kinds of all kinds of ways.

on in all kinds of all kinds of ways. on in all kinds of all kinds of ways. What kind of parallels can we draw What kind of parallels can we draw What kind of parallels can we draw between Taiwan and Hong Kong? What do between Taiwan and Hong Kong? What do between Taiwan and Hong Kong? What do you think are the people of Taiwan are you think are the people of Taiwan are you think are the people of Taiwan are thinking looking at Hong Kong? Well, I thinking looking at Hong Kong? Well, I thinking looking at Hong Kong? Well, I think I think the way that things think I think the way that things think I think the way that things developed in Hong Kong have undermined developed in Hong Kong have undermined developed in Hong Kong have undermined the kind of trust in any kind of story the kind of trust in any kind of story the kind of trust in any kind of story coming out of Beijing coming out of Beijing coming out of Beijing that that there's a place within sort of that that there's a place within sort of that that there's a place within sort of Xiinping's version at least of the Xiinping's version at least of the Xiinping's version at least of the People's Republic of China for a place People's Republic of China for a place People's Republic of China for a place where people live very different kinds where people live very different kinds where people live very different kinds of lives and I think a lot of people in of lives and I think a lot of people in of lives and I think a lot of people in Taiwan think of them feel they're living Taiwan think of them feel they're living Taiwan think of them feel they're living a very different kind of life than on a very different kind of life than on a very different kind of life than on the mainland. So in that way I think the mainland. So in that way I think the mainland. So in that way I think Hong Kong was an Hong Kong was an Hong Kong was an important example that way and there important example that way and there important example that way and there were connections between there was a were connections between there was a were connections between there was a Taiwan protest in 2014 before the big Taiwan protest in 2014 before the big Taiwan protest in 2014 before the big protest in Hong Kong by people who were protest in Hong Kong by people who were protest in Hong Kong by people who were young people who felt the government young people who felt the government young people who felt the government then was moving toward too much toward then was moving toward too much toward then was moving toward too much toward working together with Beijing. So there working together with Beijing. So there working together with Beijing. So there is there they've been interconnected is there they've been interconnected is there they've been interconnected stories and I think we sometimes miss stories and I think we sometimes miss stories and I think we sometimes miss how people within a region are looking how people within a region are looking how people within a region are looking at what other people in the region are at what other people in the region are at what other people in the region are doing and are taking clues from it about doing and are taking clues from it about doing and are taking clues from it about sort of how sort of how sort of how to how to agitate for the things they to how to agitate for the things they to how to agitate for the things they care about what the risks are what the care about what the risks are what the care about what the risks are what the dangers are autocrats within different dangers are autocrats within different dangers are autocrats within different parts of the region are looking at each parts of the region are looking at each parts of the region are looking at each other too as well as globally in part

other too as well as globally in part other too as well as globally in part because there's a great dependence in in because there's a great dependence in in because there's a great dependence in in the United States on TSMC and in that the United States on TSMC and in that the United States on TSMC and in that way on Taiwan for different supply way on Taiwan for different supply way on Taiwan for different supply chains for electronics for chains for electronics for chains for electronics for semiconductors for a lot of our economy. semiconductors for a lot of our economy. semiconductors for a lot of our economy. Uh there's been a lot of nervousness Uh there's been a lot of nervousness Uh there's been a lot of nervousness about about about Taiwan. What are the Taiwan. What are the Taiwan. What are the chances that there is some brewing chances that there is some brewing chances that there is some brewing military conflict over this question of military conflict over this question of military conflict over this question of Taiwan in the coming decades and how can Taiwan in the coming decades and how can Taiwan in the coming decades and how can we avoid it? we avoid it? we avoid it? It's a it's one of these really It's a it's one of these really It's a it's one of these really worrisome issues that there isn't a worrisome issues that there isn't a worrisome issues that there isn't a there isn't an easy I think any I think there isn't an easy I think any I think there isn't an easy I think any I think experts experts experts who tell you they know what x y and z who tell you they know what x y and z who tell you they know what x y and z about this is are are deliluding about this is are are deliluding about this is are are deliluding themselves probably there's so many themselves probably there's so many themselves probably there's so many variables maybe you could just elaborate variables maybe you could just elaborate variables maybe you could just elaborate the the the possible possible clues we have so with possible possible clues we have so with possible possible clues we have so with talking to people in Taiwan and from talking to people in Taiwan and from talking to people in Taiwan and from Taiwan there are a couple things that Taiwan there are a couple things that Taiwan there are a couple things that are um clear. One is are um clear. One is are um clear. One is that daily life in Taiwan is not people that daily life in Taiwan is not people that daily life in Taiwan is not people waking up each morning living their life waking up each morning living their life waking up each morning living their life based on the fact that there's in such a based on the fact that there's in such a based on the fact that there's in such a perilous kind of predicament that it's perilous kind of predicament that it's perilous kind of predicament that it's life goes on and a lot of people are life goes on and a lot of people are life goes on and a lot of people are um you know feel very very fortunate to um you know feel very very fortunate to um you know feel very very fortunate to be in Taiwan. You know there are many be in Taiwan. You know there are many be in Taiwan. You know there are many reasons why it seems like a great place reasons why it seems like a great place reasons why it seems like a great place to live in many ways. So even though to live in many ways. So even though to live in many ways. So even though this is hanging but that but at the same

this is hanging but that but at the same this is hanging but that but at the same time there is an awareness of things time there is an awareness of things time there is an awareness of things that increase that increase that increase precariousness and there was a lot of precariousness and there was a lot of precariousness and there was a lot of concern concern concern um with the invasion of Ukraine and um with the invasion of Ukraine and um with the invasion of Ukraine and watching watching watching how how the response to that was and how how the response to that was and how how the response to that was and there was a sense of it being analogous. there was a sense of it being analogous. there was a sense of it being analogous. there was a sense that Xiinping would be there was a sense that Xiinping would be there was a sense that Xiinping would be watching the response to Putin and watching the response to Putin and watching the response to Putin and seeing what he would do then. And so seeing what he would do then. And so seeing what he would do then. And so then there was a sense of relief I think then there was a sense of relief I think then there was a sense of relief I think when there was when there was when there was as unified a um western NATO including as unified a um western NATO including as unified a um western NATO including the United States the United States the United States response and then there's a concern you response and then there's a concern you response and then there's a concern you know there's a concern about know there's a concern about know there's a concern about um the Trump presidency because of um the Trump presidency because of um the Trump presidency because of Ukraine at the same time they're mixed Ukraine at the same time they're mixed Ukraine at the same time they're mixed signals so people are there there I'm signals so people are there there I'm signals so people are there there I'm sure there are people there who are who sure there are people there who are who sure there are people there who are who are both are both are both saying Trump is going to be tough toward saying Trump is going to be tough toward saying Trump is going to be tough toward the Chinese Communist Party and others the Chinese Communist Party and others the Chinese Communist Party and others are going to say but if he's not are going to say but if he's not are going to say but if he's not supporting if he's not as supportive of supporting if he's not as supportive of supporting if he's not as supportive of Ukraine what does that say Ukraine what does that say Ukraine what does that say for the defense of of so they're not for the defense of of so they're not for the defense of of so they're not they're not the same situations but all they're not the same situations but all they're not the same situations but all people have in a sense sometimes with people have in a sense sometimes with people have in a sense sometimes with with unknowable situations is to look at with unknowable situations is to look at with unknowable situations is to look at things that have any degree of parallel things that have any degree of parallel things that have any degree of parallel connections in other places. Do you

connections in other places. Do you connections in other places. Do you think Xi Jinping knows what he's going think Xi Jinping knows what he's going think Xi Jinping knows what he's going to do in the next 5 10 years with to do in the next 5 10 years with to do in the next 5 10 years with Taiwan? Or is it Taiwan? Or is it Taiwan? Or is it really like there's um there's a loose really like there's um there's a loose really like there's um there's a loose historical notion that Taiwan should be historical notion that Taiwan should be historical notion that Taiwan should be part of part of part of China with with Xi Jinping and the China with with Xi Jinping and the China with with Xi Jinping and the Communist Party. Believe that that loose Communist Party. Believe that that loose Communist Party. Believe that that loose idea was accepted. Shank Kai-Shek and idea was accepted. Shank Kai-Shek and idea was accepted. Shank Kai-Shek and Mao both thought that these two places Mao both thought that these two places Mao both thought that these two places were part of somehow destined to be the were part of somehow destined to be the were part of somehow destined to be the same was just under that period Shankai same was just under that period Shankai same was just under that period Shankai thought how long until I take over the thought how long until I take over the thought how long until I take over the mainland and it all becomes the Republic mainland and it all becomes the Republic mainland and it all becomes the Republic of China. This is not now something that of China. This is not now something that of China. This is not now something that any leader in Taiwan is believing. uh any leader in Taiwan is believing. uh any leader in Taiwan is believing. uh there is a degree to which there is a degree to which there is a degree to which um that remains a kind of sense within um that remains a kind of sense within um that remains a kind of sense within the Chinese Communist Party leadership the Chinese Communist Party leadership the Chinese Communist Party leadership as a as a as a eventuality. I don't think there's a set eventuality. I don't think there's a set eventuality. I don't think there's a set I don't think there's a set plan. Um in I don't think there's a set plan. Um in I don't think there's a set plan. Um in part because I think it is also part because I think it is also part because I think it is also dependent on what the kind of costs in dependent on what the kind of costs in dependent on what the kind of costs in in various realms would be of doing in various realms would be of doing in various realms would be of doing that. I think it still does.

that. I think it still does. that. I think it still does. Um I think it Um I think it Um I think it still one scenario would be possibly a still one scenario would be possibly a still one scenario would be possibly a sense of becoming strong enough to not sense of becoming strong enough to not sense of becoming strong enough to not have to worry about consequences. I have to worry about consequences. I have to worry about consequences. I think another I still think to some think another I still think to some think another I still think to some extent more would be a sense of weakness extent more would be a sense of weakness extent more would be a sense of weakness or procarity or procarity or procarity of maintaining power domestically and of maintaining power domestically and of maintaining power domestically and needing to do something to distract. And needing to do something to distract. And needing to do something to distract. And uh another complexity about this is it's uh another complexity about this is it's uh another complexity about this is it's not always so clear the line between um not always so clear the line between um not always so clear the line between um no conflict and conflict. So there's a no conflict and conflict. So there's a no conflict and conflict. So there's a lot of grayzone tactics of nonviolent lot of grayzone tactics of nonviolent lot of grayzone tactics of nonviolent pressure that that China could exude. Uh pressure that that China could exude. Uh pressure that that China could exude. Uh so it could do uh non-military so it could do uh non-military so it could do uh non-military violence. It could then escalate that to violence. It could then escalate that to violence. It could then escalate that to nonviolent military nonviolent military nonviolent military intimidation. And all of this has intimidation. And all of this has intimidation. And all of this has consequences for the United States consequences for the United States consequences for the United States because there's a messaging thing going because there's a messaging thing going because there's a messaging thing going on here. And then of course that could on here. And then of course that could on here. And then of course that could then go to a full-on do as you're told then go to a full-on do as you're told then go to a full-on do as you're told actions that come at a high risk of a actions that come at a high risk of a actions that come at a high risk of a hot military conflict. So basically just hot military conflict. So basically just hot military conflict. So basically just roll don't do military violence but just roll don't do military violence but just roll don't do military violence but just fullon pressure ordering Taiwan to do fullon pressure ordering Taiwan to do fullon pressure ordering Taiwan to do things. And there it it's it's like in things. And there it it's it's like in things. And there it it's it's like in order the only way to respond is with order the only way to respond is with order the only way to respond is with violence. You're completely trapped. If violence. You're completely trapped. If violence. You're completely trapped. If you're saying no, you have to say no you're saying no, you have to say no you're saying no, you have to say no with with with a military force behind with with with a military force behind with with with a military force behind it. And then what do you do? And at it. And then what do you do? And at it. And then what do you do? And at every step in this, it's such an

every step in this, it's such an every step in this, it's such an unstable nonlinear dynamical system unstable nonlinear dynamical system unstable nonlinear dynamical system where anything could just unintended where anything could just unintended where anything could just unintended consequences can happen and it could consequences can happen and it could consequences can happen and it could just escalate in a matter of days if not just escalate in a matter of days if not just escalate in a matter of days if not hours. hours. hours. And so like this is And so like this is And so like this is where um this is where I think it's where um this is where I think it's where um this is where I think it's really important to find mechanisms and really important to find mechanisms and really important to find mechanisms and tax tactics and strategies for tax tactics and strategies for tax tactics and strategies for deescalation. Uh which is why this trade deescalation. Uh which is why this trade deescalation. Uh which is why this trade war that's happening one of the nice war that's happening one of the nice war that's happening one of the nice things of being so connected by trade is things of being so connected by trade is things of being so connected by trade is it creates a it creates a it creates a disincentive for any of this kind of disincentive for any of this kind of disincentive for any of this kind of posturing because I do agree with you. posturing because I do agree with you. posturing because I do agree with you. But I think it will start as these But I think it will start as these But I think it will start as these things often do as a kind of mil things often do as a kind of mil things often do as a kind of mil military sort of early steps posturing military sort of early steps posturing military sort of early steps posturing in order to maintain power in order to maintain power in order to maintain power internally. So that's that's that's internally. So that's that's that's internally. So that's that's that's China will just create military China will just create military China will just create military conflict, conflict of different kinds in conflict, conflict of different kinds in conflict, conflict of different kinds in order to distract. But then how does order to distract. But then how does order to distract. But then how does that escalate? As if all that wasn't that escalate? As if all that wasn't that escalate? As if all that wasn't complicated enough, Taiwan isn't just complicated enough, Taiwan isn't just complicated enough, Taiwan isn't just one place or one island. There are also one place or one island. There are also one place or one island. There are also there islands that are closer to there islands that are closer to there islands that are closer to mainland Jinmen and the degrees of mainland Jinmen and the degrees of mainland Jinmen and the degrees of integration and anyway, so it's it's a integration and anyway, so it's it's a integration and anyway, so it's it's a but but your your comment but but your your comment but but your your comment about integration of trade and sort about integration of trade and sort about integration of trade and sort of having being a check on kind of

of having being a check on kind of of having being a check on kind of violence. There's a um there's a Chinese violence. There's a um there's a Chinese violence. There's a um there's a Chinese writer um who fascinating guy Han Han writer um who fascinating guy Han Han writer um who fascinating guy Han Han who was a race car driver and a who was a race car driver and a who was a race car driver and a filmmaker and a bad boy novelist. filmmaker and a bad boy novelist. filmmaker and a bad boy novelist. Anyway, in his heyday, he was an Anyway, in his heyday, he was an Anyway, in his heyday, he was an interesting kind of blogger who was interesting kind of blogger who was interesting kind of blogger who was testing the edges of things and he had testing the edges of things and he had testing the edges of things and he had this um blog post where he was talking this um blog post where he was talking this um blog post where he was talking about this was this was in the early about this was this was in the early about this was this was in the early 2000s. He was talking about how um China 2000s. He was talking about how um China 2000s. He was talking about how um China was building the massive three gorgeous was building the massive three gorgeous was building the massive three gorgeous dam project this and he said some people dam project this and he said some people dam project this and he said some people are saying are saying are saying um building these dams it would be so um building these dams it would be so um building these dams it would be so easy for the Americans to just easy for the Americans to just easy for the Americans to just um you know just just bomb them and and um you know just just bomb them and and um you know just just bomb them and and destroy our country and because it would destroy our country and because it would destroy our country and because it would be a massive flood. And he said, "But be a massive flood. And he said, "But be a massive flood. And he said, "But that's really silly. That's a really that's really silly. That's a really that's really silly. That's a really silly argument because Americans know silly argument because Americans know silly argument because Americans know that down river from there what will be that down river from there what will be that down river from there what will be flooded out was the place where their flooded out was the place where their flooded out was the place where their iPhones are built and you know and they iPhones are built and you know and they iPhones are built and you know and they want their iPhones. So that's what you want their iPhones. So that's what you want their iPhones. So that's what you know." So this kind of notion, you know, know." So this kind of notion, you know, know." So this kind of notion, you know, he's making through a humorous point the he's making through a humorous point the he's making through a humorous point the way in which way in which way in which interconnectedness can um can be a check interconnectedness can um can be a check interconnectedness can um can be a check and interconnectedness can be in all and interconnectedness can be in all and interconnectedness can be in all kinds of ways. the flows, people between kinds of ways. the flows, people between kinds of ways. the flows, people between places and um having people from from places and um having people from from places and um having people from from one place living in another, traveling one place living in another, traveling one place living in another, traveling to another, studying in another, that to another, studying in another, that to another, studying in another, that can actually be something that helps to

can actually be something that helps to can actually be something that helps to um to stabilize the world. And I think um to stabilize the world. And I think um to stabilize the world. And I think that's an important thing to keep in that's an important thing to keep in that's an important thing to keep in mind. Since you mentioned the the long mind. Since you mentioned the the long mind. Since you mentioned the the long march and the unlikely march and the unlikely march and the unlikely uh coming to power of the Communist uh coming to power of the Communist uh coming to power of the Communist Party, let's go back. We began comparing Party, let's go back. We began comparing Party, let's go back. We began comparing Xi Jinping and Mao. Let's go back to Xi Jinping and Mao. Let's go back to Xi Jinping and Mao. Let's go back to Mao. How did Mao come to power? The road Mao. How did Mao come to power? The road Mao. How did Mao come to power? The road to Mao coming to power. We need to first to Mao coming to power. We need to first to Mao coming to power. We need to first say that China was under rule by say that China was under rule by say that China was under rule by emperors until 1911, overthrown by an emperors until 1911, overthrown by an emperors until 1911, overthrown by an upheaval that was partly by people who upheaval that was partly by people who upheaval that was partly by people who wanted to change China into a republic, wanted to change China into a republic, wanted to change China into a republic, but also some people who wanted to get but also some people who wanted to get but also some people who wanted to get rid of the last dynasty was a was a rid of the last dynasty was a was a rid of the last dynasty was a was a group of Manchu ruling families. So they group of Manchu ruling families. So they group of Manchu ruling families. So they saw them as ethnic outsiders. So it was saw them as ethnic outsiders. So it was saw them as ethnic outsiders. So it was a strange combination of kind of uh a strange combination of kind of uh a strange combination of kind of uh ethnic nationalists who wanted China ethnic nationalists who wanted China ethnic nationalists who wanted China back under the control of back under the control of back under the control of Hanchinese, other people who thought the Hanchinese, other people who thought the Hanchinese, other people who thought the time for rule by emperors was over and time for rule by emperors was over and time for rule by emperors was over and wanted to establish a wanted to establish a wanted to establish a republic. And Sunaten became a first republic. And Sunaten became a first republic. And Sunaten became a first president, provisional president of this president, provisional president of this president, provisional president of this newly formed Republic of China. But then newly formed Republic of China. But then newly formed Republic of China. But then he got nudged out of power by a military he got nudged out of power by a military he got nudged out of power by a military strongman. And then there was a period strongman. And then there was a period strongman. And then there was a period where the country was really divided.

where the country was really divided. where the country was really divided. Republic of China didn't have a strong Republic of China didn't have a strong Republic of China didn't have a strong government. But there were then two government. But there were then two government. But there were then two groups. One rallied around uh Sonia Sen groups. One rallied around uh Sonia Sen groups. One rallied around uh Sonia Sen had founded something that became known had founded something that became known had founded something that became known as the nationalist party. And then there as the nationalist party. And then there as the nationalist party. And then there was a small group of people who formed a was a small group of people who formed a was a small group of people who formed a communist party. Mao was one of them. communist party. Mao was one of them. communist party. Mao was one of them. These were intellectuals who were part These were intellectuals who were part These were intellectuals who were part of the May 4th movement of 1919. They of the May 4th movement of 1919. They of the May 4th movement of 1919. They were inspired by Marxist ideas, but they were inspired by Marxist ideas, but they were inspired by Marxist ideas, but they were also just inspired by the Russian were also just inspired by the Russian were also just inspired by the Russian revolution. Russia was nearby. It seemed revolution. Russia was nearby. It seemed revolution. Russia was nearby. It seemed good to think with. It had a largely good to think with. It had a largely good to think with. It had a largely rural population. And rural population. And rural population. And somehow it seemed to be getting strong somehow it seemed to be getting strong somehow it seemed to be getting strong in the world. And there was this in the world. And there was this in the world. And there was this interest in sort of what how China could interest in sort of what how China could interest in sort of what how China could do that. And the newly formed Soviet do that. And the newly formed Soviet do that. And the newly formed Soviet Union did something very important. Union did something very important. Union did something very important. There were a group of foreign powers, There were a group of foreign powers, There were a group of foreign powers, including Tsarist Russia, that had including Tsarist Russia, that had including Tsarist Russia, that had gained big um concessions out of China gained big um concessions out of China gained big um concessions out of China when in 1900 the Boxer Uprising had when in 1900 the Boxer Uprising had when in 1900 the Boxer Uprising had taken place and then um been crushed by taken place and then um been crushed by taken place and then um been crushed by a consortium of foreign powers who had a consortium of foreign powers who had a consortium of foreign powers who had gotten um privileges and indemnities out gotten um privileges and indemnities out gotten um privileges and indemnities out of that. And the newly formed Soviet of that. And the newly formed Soviet of that. And the newly formed Soviet Union renounced those said, you know, Union renounced those said, you know, Union renounced those said, you know, that was the old order, that was that was the old order, that was that was the old order, that was imperialism.

imperialism. imperialism. And And And so Marx's ideas were so Marx's ideas were so Marx's ideas were were attractive to some some Chinese were attractive to some some Chinese were attractive to some some Chinese thinkers, but Lenon was very attractive thinkers, but Lenon was very attractive thinkers, but Lenon was very attractive because of his combination of because of his combination of because of his combination of anti-imperialism and his notion of a anti-imperialism and his notion of a anti-imperialism and his notion of a vanguard party leading a country vanguard party leading a country vanguard party leading a country forward. So there was a small communist forward. So there was a small communist forward. So there was a small communist party, a bigger nationalist party. They party, a bigger nationalist party. They party, a bigger nationalist party. They were involved in these protests against were involved in these protests against were involved in these protests against warlords and against imperialists. warlords and against imperialists. warlords and against imperialists. And while Sunyats Sen was alive, And while Sunyats Sen was alive, And while Sunyats Sen was alive, Sunyatsen got the two parties to work Sunyatsen got the two parties to work Sunyatsen got the two parties to work together because Sunyatsen wasn't a together because Sunyatsen wasn't a together because Sunyatsen wasn't a Marxist. He didn't believe in class Marxist. He didn't believe in class Marxist. He didn't believe in class struggle, but he admired Lenin and struggle, but he admired Lenin and struggle, but he admired Lenin and Leninism. And so he said that actually Leninism. And so he said that actually Leninism. And so he said that actually the Communist Party and the Nationalist the Communist Party and the Nationalist the Communist Party and the Nationalist Party may have had different views of Party may have had different views of Party may have had different views of the path forward for China, but they the path forward for China, but they the path forward for China, but they agreed on who the enemies were. And the agreed on who the enemies were. And the agreed on who the enemies were. And the enemies were the warlords who were enemies were the warlords who were enemies were the warlords who were keeping China weak and too willing to keeping China weak and too willing to keeping China weak and too willing to compromise with Japan and foreign compromise with Japan and foreign compromise with Japan and foreign imperialism. So China needed to get rid imperialism. So China needed to get rid imperialism. So China needed to get rid of the warlords and become a stronger of the warlords and become a stronger of the warlords and become a stronger country and then they could sort it out country and then they could sort it out country and then they could sort it out of um what road to take. Syen dies in of um what road to take. Syen dies in of um what road to take. Syen dies in 1925 and his successor Shang 1925 and his successor Shang 1925 and his successor Shang Kaishek is initially keeps the alliance Kaishek is initially keeps the alliance Kaishek is initially keeps the alliance going with the communist party but in going with the communist party but in going with the communist party but in 1927 he turns against the communists and 1927 he turns against the communists and 1927 he turns against the communists and tries to carry out a purge against tries to carry out a purge against tries to carry out a purge against Communist Party members. He's the head Communist Party members. He's the head Communist Party members. He's the head of the the nationalists. He's the head of the the nationalists. He's the head of the the nationalists. He's the head of the nationalists and he has some very

of the nationalists and he has some very of the nationalists and he has some very different he's he's a kind of culturally different he's he's a kind of culturally different he's he's a kind of culturally more conservative figure. Um but what's more conservative figure. Um but what's more conservative figure. Um but what's important in part about this is there important in part about this is there important in part about this is there are some members of the Chinese are some members of the Chinese are some members of the Chinese Communist Party who accept the basic Communist Party who accept the basic Communist Party who accept the basic ideas of Marxism of revolution comes ideas of Marxism of revolution comes ideas of Marxism of revolution comes from the cities but from the cities but from the cities but Mao has this idea that actually he's Mao has this idea that actually he's Mao has this idea that actually he's he's partly he loves this idea of he's partly he loves this idea of he's partly he loves this idea of peasant rebellions in China's past is peasant rebellions in China's past is peasant rebellions in China's past is driving history forward and he starts driving history forward and he starts driving history forward and he starts writing about how well maybe in China's writing about how well maybe in China's writing about how well maybe in China's case actually the peasantry farmer s can case actually the peasantry farmer s can case actually the peasantry farmer s can be a radical force. And so the communist be a radical force. And so the communist be a radical force. And so the communist part is on the run. It's being pushed part is on the run. It's being pushed part is on the run. It's being pushed around, but the nationalists are trying around, but the nationalists are trying around, but the nationalists are trying to exterminate them. But eventually um to exterminate them. But eventually um to exterminate them. But eventually um and it the nationalists and the and it the nationalists and the and it the nationalists and the communists all lie again after Japan communists all lie again after Japan communists all lie again after Japan invades China in the 1930s. They form a invades China in the 1930s. They form a invades China in the 1930s. They form a what's called a second united front. But what's called a second united front. But what's called a second united front. But during this period, Mao is emerging as during this period, Mao is emerging as during this period, Mao is emerging as the taking leadership in the Chinese the taking leadership in the Chinese the taking leadership in the Chinese Communist Party and his idea of a Communist Party and his idea of a Communist Party and his idea of a different kind of vision of communist different kind of vision of communist different kind of vision of communist revolution that has um the revolutionary revolution that has um the revolutionary revolution that has um the revolutionary vanguard somehow being um the vanguard somehow being um the vanguard somehow being um the peasantry in after World War II after peasantry in after World War II after peasantry in after World War II after the two parties have brokered a truce the two parties have brokered a truce the two parties have brokered a truce and sort of worked together against and sort of worked together against and sort of worked together against Japan. There's a civil war between the Japan. There's a civil war between the Japan. There's a civil war between the nationalists and the communists and nationalists and the communists and nationalists and the communists and against all odds the communist party

against all odds the communist party against all odds the communist party wins. The communist party gets support wins. The communist party gets support wins. The communist party gets support from the Soviet Union. The nationalists from the Soviet Union. The nationalists from the Soviet Union. The nationalists get support from the United States. get support from the United States. get support from the United States. Um even though neither of them are quite Um even though neither of them are quite Um even though neither of them are quite doing things the way that their backer doing things the way that their backer doing things the way that their backer would like them to. But there also is a would like them to. But there also is a would like them to. But there also is a way in which the and this is something I way in which the and this is something I way in which the and this is something I think the Communist Party leaders think the Communist Party leaders think the Communist Party leaders remember. There's a feeling that the remember. There's a feeling that the remember. There's a feeling that the nationalist party doesn't really believe nationalist party doesn't really believe nationalist party doesn't really believe its own rhetoric that in fact all it its own rhetoric that in fact all it its own rhetoric that in fact all it cares about is having power and that cares about is having power and that cares about is having power and that it's internally corrupt. Shanghai it's internally corrupt. Shanghai it's internally corrupt. Shanghai himself isn't viewed as sort of himself isn't viewed as sort of himself isn't viewed as sort of personally corrupt personally corrupt personally corrupt but family members and there's there's but family members and there's there's but family members and there's there's all there's an idea that there's just a all there's an idea that there's just a all there's an idea that there's just a small band of people that are benefiting small band of people that are benefiting small band of people that are benefiting and um there's a kind of disgust with and um there's a kind of disgust with and um there's a kind of disgust with the leader with the the the the leader with the the the the leader with the the the nationalists. the nationalists end up in nationalists. the nationalists end up in nationalists. the nationalists end up in retreat in Taiwan. That's why Taiwan retreat in Taiwan. That's why Taiwan retreat in Taiwan. That's why Taiwan then becomes the Republic of China. Um then becomes the Republic of China. Um then becomes the Republic of China. Um there's an uprising there that there's an uprising there that there's an uprising there that Shanghai's people um the nationalists Shanghai's people um the nationalists Shanghai's people um the nationalists repress and there starts being from the repress and there starts being from the repress and there starts being from the late 1940s on this long period of late 1940s on this long period of late 1940s on this long period of martial law on Taiwan and there becomes martial law on Taiwan and there becomes martial law on Taiwan and there becomes then this period where the mainland's then this period where the mainland's then this period where the mainland's under the control of a Leninist party under the control of a Leninist party under the control of a Leninist party believes in one party believes in one party believes in one party rule and believes that it was a bad very rule and believes that it was a bad very rule and believes that it was a bad very bad period in Chinese history when um bad period in Chinese history when um bad period in Chinese history when um when China was unable to stand up to when China was unable to stand up to when China was unable to stand up to imperialists. Taiwan's controlled by an

imperialists. Taiwan's controlled by an imperialists. Taiwan's controlled by an Leninist party that believes in one Leninist party that believes in one Leninist party that believes in one party rule, limits on participation, party rule, limits on participation, party rule, limits on participation, believes that there's a bad time when believes that there's a bad time when believes that there's a bad time when China was being bullied by imperialists. China was being bullied by imperialists. China was being bullied by imperialists. What distinguishes Shanghai? Shankai has What distinguishes Shanghai? Shankai has What distinguishes Shanghai? Shankai has a personality cult. Mao has a a personality cult. Mao has a a personality cult. Mao has a personality cult. They have a lot in personality cult. They have a lot in personality cult. They have a lot in common, but one clear thing that makes common, but one clear thing that makes common, but one clear thing that makes them different is Shanghai says that them different is Shanghai says that them different is Shanghai says that what's wrong with the Communist Party is what's wrong with the Communist Party is what's wrong with the Communist Party is they've abandon Chinese traditional they've abandon Chinese traditional they've abandon Chinese traditional values of values of values of Confucianism and Mao says that on the Confucianism and Mao says that on the Confucianism and Mao says that on the nationalists what's really bad is they nationalists what's really bad is they nationalists what's really bad is they are still wedded to these traditional are still wedded to these traditional are still wedded to these traditional Chinese values of Confucianism. So, Chinese values of Confucianism. So, Chinese values of Confucianism. So, cycling back to where we began with Mao cycling back to where we began with Mao cycling back to where we began with Mao and Xi, you could actually say Xiinping and Xi, you could actually say Xiinping and Xi, you could actually say Xiinping in some ways is like living out the in some ways is like living out the in some ways is like living out the dream that Shanghai had of one party dream that Shanghai had of one party dream that Shanghai had of one party rule and also kind of celebrating rule and also kind of celebrating rule and also kind of celebrating Confucianism. Yeah, there's Confucianism. Yeah, there's Confucianism. Yeah, there's elements you've spoken about the elements you've spoken about the elements you've spoken about the elements of Shanka and Mao that Xi elements of Shanka and Mao that Xi elements of Shanka and Mao that Xi Jinping kind of combines. You've also Jinping kind of combines. You've also Jinping kind of combines. You've also mentioned an interesting, you know, if mentioned an interesting, you know, if mentioned an interesting, you know, if we had, you know, $100 to talk about.

we had, you know, $100 to talk about. we had, you know, $100 to talk about. There's another interesting side There's another interesting side There's another interesting side effect similarity that you talk about effect similarity that you talk about effect similarity that you talk about where where where Xiinping's Xiinping's Xiinping's wife is out there, a known entity, a wife is out there, a known entity, a wife is out there, a known entity, a part of his public image. And same was part of his public image. And same was part of his public image. And same was the case with uh Shank Kai-shek. Yes. the case with uh Shank Kai-shek. Yes. the case with uh Shank Kai-shek. Yes. And both of them, right, they had And both of them, right, they had And both of them, right, they had high-profile wives who were high-profile wives who were high-profile wives who were uh sort of celebrity figures and and uh sort of celebrity figures and and uh sort of celebrity figures and and made made made um a good impression globally and were um a good impression globally and were um a good impression globally and were more like kind of first um first more like kind of first um first more like kind of first um first ladies. But both Shanka and ladies. But both Shanka and ladies. But both Shanka and Xiinping were oversaw a period of of Xiinping were oversaw a period of of Xiinping were oversaw a period of of emphasizing more traditional patriarchal emphasizing more traditional patriarchal emphasizing more traditional patriarchal values in China. And one of the things I values in China. And one of the things I values in China. And one of the things I didn't mention before, Xiinping has been didn't mention before, Xiinping has been didn't mention before, Xiinping has been very um in this idea of trying to do very um in this idea of trying to do very um in this idea of trying to do away with difference within PRC, he's away with difference within PRC, he's away with difference within PRC, he's been pushing against feminist any kinds been pushing against feminist any kinds been pushing against feminist any kinds of feminist movements. So going back to of feminist movements. So going back to of feminist movements. So going back to Confucious. Yeah. Yeah. In some ways, I Confucious. Yeah. Yeah. In some ways, I Confucious. Yeah. Yeah. In some ways, I mean there are people who will argue for mean there are people who will argue for mean there are people who will argue for a less patriarchal Confucious, but it it a less patriarchal Confucious, but it it a less patriarchal Confucious, but it it fits with that mode. So now that gets us fits with that mode. So now that gets us fits with that mode. So now that gets us close to Mao consolidating power.

close to Mao consolidating power. close to Mao consolidating power. Then the story after 1949 with with Mao Then the story after 1949 with with Mao Then the story after 1949 with with Mao is there's there there were divisions is there's there there were divisions is there's there there were divisions within within within um within the communist party over sort um within the communist party over sort um within the communist party over sort of Mao was impatient. He wanted to of Mao was impatient. He wanted to of Mao was impatient. He wanted to transform the country quickly. He had a transform the country quickly. He had a transform the country quickly. He had a utopian streak. He thought just as the utopian streak. He thought just as the utopian streak. He thought just as the peasantry could sort of you didn't have peasantry could sort of you didn't have peasantry could sort of you didn't have to stick to the traditional pattern of to stick to the traditional pattern of to stick to the traditional pattern of moving slowly to socialism and then to moving slowly to socialism and then to moving slowly to socialism and then to communism, he tried to the great leap communism, he tried to the great leap communism, he tried to the great leap forward was this disastrous policy of forward was this disastrous policy of forward was this disastrous policy of his that imagined China outdoing um the his that imagined China outdoing um the his that imagined China outdoing um the west in a kind of quick west in a kind of quick west in a kind of quick industrialization in a move like this industrialization in a move like this industrialization in a move like this and it was just a it just didn't it just and it was just a it just didn't it just and it was just a it just didn't it just didn't work and all kinds of things were didn't work and all kinds of things were didn't work and all kinds of things were wrong and that would be a whole there'd wrong and that would be a whole there'd wrong and that would be a whole there'd be a we'd need a whole another session be a we'd need a whole another session be a we'd need a whole another session to do the great leap forward and the to do the great leap forward and the to do the great leap forward and the cultural revolution. But one of the cultural revolution. But one of the cultural revolution. But one of the simple ways to think about it is Mao simple ways to think about it is Mao simple ways to think about it is Mao made these kind of disastrous moves and made these kind of disastrous moves and made these kind of disastrous moves and then was partially sidelined and then then was partially sidelined and then then was partially sidelined and then wanted to get back to power.

wanted to get back to power. wanted to get back to power. And there was this struggle between And there was this struggle between And there was this struggle between people who are more gradualists, more people who are more gradualists, more people who are more gradualists, more let's try to work more kind of let's try to work more kind of let's try to work more kind of rationally and the more utopian side rationally and the more utopian side rationally and the more utopian side with Mao. And both the great leap with Mao. And both the great leap with Mao. And both the great leap forward and then later the cultural forward and then later the cultural forward and then later the cultural revolution were Mao's efforts to revolution were Mao's efforts to revolution were Mao's efforts to um to do things dramatically even at the um to do things dramatically even at the um to do things dramatically even at the risk of chaos even at the risk of um of risk of chaos even at the risk of um of risk of chaos even at the risk of um of of undoing a lot of the kind of slow of undoing a lot of the kind of slow of undoing a lot of the kind of slow building of of um of state building building of of um of state building building of of um of state building going on. And then there were other going on. And then there were other going on. And then there were other figures who were more concerned with um figures who were more concerned with um figures who were more concerned with um kind of incremental moves. And then kind of incremental moves. And then kind of incremental moves. And then after Mao's death, one of those figures, after Mao's death, one of those figures, after Mao's death, one of those figures, Deng Xiaoping, ends up being the next Deng Xiaoping, ends up being the next Deng Xiaoping, ends up being the next long-term uh paramount leader. He led to long-term uh paramount leader. He led to long-term uh paramount leader. He led to decades of economic progress. His decades of economic progress. His decades of economic progress. His economic reforms led to record-breaking economic reforms led to record-breaking economic reforms led to record-breaking growth for China and so on. But I got to growth for China and so on. But I got to growth for China and so on. But I got to linger on um the great leap forward a linger on um the great leap forward a linger on um the great leap forward a bit, enough to understand modern day bit, enough to understand modern day bit, enough to understand modern day China. So um as people know as I'm sure China. So um as people know as I'm sure China. So um as people know as I'm sure I'll talk about in other I'll talk about in other I'll talk about in other episodes the great leap forward this uh episodes the great leap forward this uh episodes the great leap forward this uh agricultural collectivization and rapid agricultural collectivization and rapid agricultural collectivization and rapid attempt to ind industrialize u has have attempt to ind industrialize u has have attempt to ind industrialize u has have killed 30 to 45 million people. It's one killed 30 to 45 million people. It's one killed 30 to 45 million people. It's one of not the greatest atrocities in human of not the greatest atrocities in human of not the greatest atrocities in human history. How could history. How could history. How could Mao be so catastrophically wrong on the

Mao be so catastrophically wrong on the Mao be so catastrophically wrong on the policy of policy of policy of collectivization and be so unwilling to collectivization and be so unwilling to collectivization and be so unwilling to see the atrocity and the suffering he's see the atrocity and the suffering he's see the atrocity and the suffering he's causing and enough to change course. So causing and enough to change course. So causing and enough to change course. So with the great leap forward which caused with the great leap forward which caused with the great leap forward which caused this incredible famine um the just this incredible famine um the just this incredible famine um the just incredible devastation. One of the one incredible devastation. One of the one incredible devastation. One of the one of the things that happened was getting of the things that happened was getting of the things that happened was getting very bad information. There was a sense very bad information. There was a sense very bad information. There was a sense that there was people officials were that there was people officials were that there was people officials were afraid that if they gave bad news, if afraid that if they gave bad news, if afraid that if they gave bad news, if they if they if they admitted that they they if they if they admitted that they they if they if they admitted that they were failing to meet these giant targets were failing to meet these giant targets were failing to meet these giant targets that were being set, that would be seen that were being set, that would be seen that were being set, that would be seen as a political mistake. So it got it got as a political mistake. So it got it got as a political mistake. So it got it got to be a survival mechanism to pass on to be a survival mechanism to pass on to be a survival mechanism to pass on unrealistic reports on what was going. unrealistic reports on what was going. unrealistic reports on what was going. So some of it was um a culture of fear So some of it was um a culture of fear So some of it was um a culture of fear around a great leader that led to not around a great leader that led to not around a great leader that led to not getting um not getting accurate getting um not getting accurate getting um not getting accurate information. So that was one part of the information. So that was one part of the information. So that was one part of the dynamic. Ego was a big part of it.

dynamic. Ego was a big part of it. dynamic. Ego was a big part of it. There were all kinds of things that were There were all kinds of things that were There were all kinds of things that were unmed um when early in the Chinese unmed um when early in the Chinese unmed um when early in the Chinese Communist Party history and power there Communist Party history and power there Communist Party history and power there was the connection to the Soviet Union was the connection to the Soviet Union was the connection to the Soviet Union and Mao and Stalin had a connection and Mao and Stalin had a connection and Mao and Stalin had a connection after Stalin's death. Mao was haunted by after Stalin's death. Mao was haunted by after Stalin's death. Mao was haunted by the move toward the move toward the move toward dstalinization and the moves by Kruef dstalinization and the moves by Kruef dstalinization and the moves by Kruef and thus laid the groundwork for the and thus laid the groundwork for the and thus laid the groundwork for the Sinos Soviet split. But there was also Sinos Soviet split. But there was also Sinos Soviet split. But there was also this kind this kind this kind of obsession with doing things of obsession with doing things of obsession with doing things differently differently differently um that Mao had in that case as well. um that Mao had in that case as well. um that Mao had in that case as well. And you have factional struggles. You And you have factional struggles. You And you have factional struggles. You have all kinds of things that are have all kinds of things that are have all kinds of things that are happening uh simultaneously. Uh there's happening uh simultaneously. Uh there's happening uh simultaneously. Uh there's something I learned about called Gray's something I learned about called Gray's something I learned about called Gray's law which states any sufficiently law which states any sufficiently law which states any sufficiently advanced incompetence is advanced incompetence is advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice. So I indistinguishable from malice. So I indistinguishable from malice. So I would say when 30 to 45 million people would say when 30 to 45 million people would say when 30 to 45 million people die, it doesn't really matter what the die, it doesn't really matter what the die, it doesn't really matter what the explanation explanation explanation is. That's a longer discussion, but the is. That's a longer discussion, but the is. That's a longer discussion, but the interesting discussion that connects to interesting discussion that connects to interesting discussion that connects to everything we've been talking about is everything we've been talking about is everything we've been talking about is how is Mao seen in modern day China?

how is Mao seen in modern day China? how is Mao seen in modern day China? What what has What what has What what has Xiinping said about Mao? So before Xiinping said about Mao? So before Xiinping said about Mao? So before Xiinping, there was this this kind of Xiinping, there was this this kind of Xiinping, there was this this kind of assessment of of of Mao as having been assessment of of of Mao as having been assessment of of of Mao as having been uh early in the in the early 80s of uh early in the in the early 80s of uh early in the in the early 80s of being 70% right, 30% wrong. I guess Ma's being 70% right, 30% wrong. I guess Ma's being 70% right, 30% wrong. I guess Ma's own analysis of own analysis of own analysis of Stalin was that Stalin was 70% right and Stalin was that Stalin was 70% right and Stalin was that Stalin was 70% right and 30% wrong. Uh and so they apply the same 30% wrong. Uh and so they apply the same 30% wrong. Uh and so they apply the same kind of logic there. Yeah. Mathematical kind of logic there. Yeah. Mathematical kind of logic there. Yeah. Mathematical analysis to Mao. Yeah. But Xiinping has analysis to Mao. Yeah. But Xiinping has analysis to Mao. Yeah. But Xiinping has had a different way of talking about had a different way of talking about had a different way of talking about this and he's talked about the first 30 this and he's talked about the first 30 this and he's talked about the first 30 years of the People's Republic of China years of the People's Republic of China years of the People's Republic of China and the second 30 years and says that we and the second 30 years and says that we and the second 30 years and says that we should not use the successes of one to should not use the successes of one to should not use the successes of one to criticize the other. That we need to see criticize the other. That we need to see criticize the other. That we need to see where we are today where we are today where we are today as benefiting from both those first 30 as benefiting from both those first 30 as benefiting from both those first 30 years and those second 30 years which years and those second 30 years which years and those second 30 years which implicitly or he sometimes talks about a implicitly or he sometimes talks about a implicitly or he sometimes talks about a new era. suggests that in many ways he new era. suggests that in many ways he new era. suggests that in many ways he sees China as now in a post-reform era.

sees China as now in a post-reform era. sees China as now in a post-reform era. We can think about a third stage and We can think about a third stage and We can think about a third stage and there are people who write about it in there are people who write about it in there are people who write about it in that way. Um, and so he that way. Um, and so he that way. Um, and so he clearly there's always been a way of clearly there's always been a way of clearly there's always been a way of trying trying trying to separate out a kind of Mao of the to separate out a kind of Mao of the to separate out a kind of Mao of the periods when things were not going periods when things were not going periods when things were not going horribly and I think Xiinping would horribly and I think Xiinping would horribly and I think Xiinping would think that Mao having managed to fight think that Mao having managed to fight think that Mao having managed to fight the Korean War to a standstill which is the Korean War to a standstill which is the Korean War to a standstill which is how things are are how the the history how things are are how the the history how things are are how the the history of that period is described in the PRC of that period is described in the PRC of that period is described in the PRC said look you know you had you had so said look you know you had you had so said look you know you had you had so many different forces of the more many different forces of the more many different forces of the more developed world fighting on one side and developed world fighting on one side and developed world fighting on one side and that war did not end in a defeat for um that war did not end in a defeat for um that war did not end in a defeat for um for North Korea and for the Chinese for North Korea and for the Chinese for North Korea and for the Chinese side. side. side. Um, so yeah, Xiinping I think wants to Um, so yeah, Xiinping I think wants to Um, so yeah, Xiinping I think wants to be seen as an be seen as an be seen as an inheritor, an inheritor of Mao, a inheritor, an inheritor of Mao, a inheritor, an inheritor of Mao, a continuer of one side of the Mao legacy, continuer of one side of the Mao legacy, continuer of one side of the Mao legacy, but clearly circling back to where we but clearly circling back to where we but clearly circling back to where we began, not the Mao who liked to stir began, not the Mao who liked to stir began, not the Mao who liked to stir things up, not the Mao who believed in things up, not the Mao who believed in things up, not the Mao who believed in mobilizing youth onto on the streets, mobilizing youth onto on the streets, mobilizing youth onto on the streets, not the Mao who let things get out of not the Mao who let things get out of not the Mao who let things get out of control, but the Mao who was responsible control, but the Mao who was responsible control, but the Mao who was responsible for strengthening the nation.

for strengthening the nation. for strengthening the nation. Can I ask you about the 1953 speech? Let Can I ask you about the 1953 speech? Let Can I ask you about the 1953 speech? Let me just watch it real quick. This me just watch it real quick. This me just watch it real quick. This particular speech is about uh in 1953 at particular speech is about uh in 1953 at particular speech is about uh in 1953 at the end of the Korean War saying China the end of the Korean War saying China the end of the Korean War saying China will not will not will not surrender. Well, let's actually just surrender. Well, let's actually just surrender. Well, let's actually just listen to it. The speech reads, "As to listen to it. The speech reads, "As to listen to it. The speech reads, "As to how long this war will last, we're not how long this war will last, we're not how long this war will last, we're not the ones who can the ones who can the ones who can decide. It used to depend on President decide. It used to depend on President decide. It used to depend on President Truman. It will depend on President Truman. It will depend on President Truman. It will depend on President Eisenhower or whoever will become the Eisenhower or whoever will become the Eisenhower or whoever will become the next US president. It's up to them. But next US president. It's up to them. But next US president. It's up to them. But no matter how long this war is going to no matter how long this war is going to no matter how long this war is going to last, we will never yield. We'll fight until we completely triumph. We'll fight until we completely triumph. Yeah. So this is Yeah. So this is Yeah. So this is uh the version of Ma that you're uh the version of Ma that you're uh the version of Ma that you're speaking to that is still celebrated uh speaking to that is still celebrated uh speaking to that is still celebrated uh today and from the Chinese perspective I today and from the Chinese perspective I today and from the Chinese perspective I guess they could tell the story about guess they could tell the story about guess they could tell the story about that particular proxy war that they triumphed. What do you think about that triumphed. What do you think about that speech about these performance? I don't speech about these performance? I don't speech about these performance? I don't know how many uh how many how much know how many uh how many how much know how many uh how many how much you've listened to Mao speeches. Well, you've listened to Mao speeches. Well, you've listened to Mao speeches. Well, he had a he had a really difficult he had a he had a really difficult he had a he had a really difficult accent to um make sense of and people accent to um make sense of and people accent to um make sense of and people people native speakers of Chinese could people native speakers of Chinese could people native speakers of Chinese could have trouble with with his um his his have trouble with with his um his his have trouble with with his um his his speech. Uh that one was less less hard

speech. Uh that one was less less hard speech. Uh that one was less less hard to follow than um than some of them. to follow than um than some of them. to follow than um than some of them. What explains the accent? Well, he's What explains the accent? Well, he's What explains the accent? Well, he's just from from Hunan and he he had a had just from from Hunan and he he had a had just from from Hunan and he he had a had a heavy accent and he this is another a heavy accent and he this is another a heavy accent and he this is another complicated side of of Mao. He he was complicated side of of Mao. He he was complicated side of of Mao. He he was both anti-intellectual and very both anti-intellectual and very both anti-intellectual and very intellectual. He liked to write poetry intellectual. He liked to write poetry intellectual. He liked to write poetry and to fashion himself as that. But he and to fashion himself as that. But he and to fashion himself as that. But he also liked to be seen as incredibly also liked to be seen as incredibly also liked to be seen as incredibly earthy and um critical of the u of of earthy and um critical of the u of of earthy and um critical of the u of of intellectuals and if he had an animous intellectuals and if he had an animous intellectuals and if he had an animous toward you know wanting to even though toward you know wanting to even though toward you know wanting to even though he came even though he was he came even though he was he came even though he was intellectually he had that intellectually he had that intellectually he had that anti-intellectualism but no I think anti-intellectualism but no I think anti-intellectualism but no I think what's interesting about that speech in what's interesting about that speech in what's interesting about that speech in part is how part is how part is how um in even the the the depiction of the um in even the the the depiction of the um in even the the the depiction of the Korean war as being the war against Korean war as being the war against Korean war as being the war against America and resist America and support America and resist America and support America and resist America and support Korea. I think it fit with his idea that Korea. I think it fit with his idea that Korea. I think it fit with his idea that his that it wasn't just about China, it his that it wasn't just about China, it his that it wasn't just about China, it wasn't about China working in wasn't about China working in wasn't about China working in self-interest, but siding with other self-interest, but siding with other self-interest, but siding with other siding with the underdog countries siding with the underdog countries siding with the underdog countries against the hegemonic ones. And that was against the hegemonic ones. And that was against the hegemonic ones. And that was another part of Mao's um Ma's desire to another part of Mao's um Ma's desire to another part of Mao's um Ma's desire to see China as representing the kind of um see China as representing the kind of um see China as representing the kind of um a a third world and a sort of the a a third world and a sort of the a a third world and a sort of the um the countries that had felt the brunt

um the countries that had felt the brunt um the countries that had felt the brunt of imperialism of uh western imperialism of imperialism of uh western imperialism of imperialism of uh western imperialism and Japanese imperialism and trying to and Japanese imperialism and trying to and Japanese imperialism and trying to find one or another find one or another find one or another um one or another country's imperialism um one or another country's imperialism um one or another country's imperialism to focus. us on at that point he was to focus. us on at that point he was to focus. us on at that point he was focusing on America which is something focusing on America which is something focusing on America which is something that can have it have particular that can have it have particular that can have it have particular resonances. Now um Mao could alternate resonances. Now um Mao could alternate resonances. Now um Mao could alternate certain points he thought there should certain points he thought there should certain points he thought there should be an alliance with or he said that be an alliance with or he said that be an alliance with or he said that China should be able to work with Japan China should be able to work with Japan China should be able to work with Japan because um I mean he said it at one because um I mean he said it at one because um I mean he said it at one point he said well without Japanese point he said well without Japanese point he said well without Japanese imperialism the communist party wouldn't imperialism the communist party wouldn't imperialism the communist party wouldn't have risen because we wouldn't have had have risen because we wouldn't have had have risen because we wouldn't have had this ability to unite the people. this ability to unite the people. this ability to unite the people. Um, we have seen Um, we have seen Um, we have seen in the postmile period some leaders in the postmile period some leaders in the postmile period some leaders playing on sort of anti-Japanese playing on sort of anti-Japanese playing on sort of anti-Japanese sentiment because of the history of sentiment because of the history of sentiment because of the history of Japanese aggression or there can be Japanese aggression or there can be Japanese aggression or there can be anti-American sentiment because of of of anti-American sentiment because of of of anti-American sentiment because of of of the history of American roles in the history of American roles in the history of American roles in imperialism or it can be played in a imperialism or it can be played in a imperialism or it can be played in a different way. the United States different way. the United States different way. the United States certainly tried that the United States certainly tried that the United States certainly tried that the United States didn't have formal colonies in um in didn't have formal colonies in um in didn't have formal colonies in um in Asia the way that Britain and France did Asia the way that Britain and France did Asia the way that Britain and France did and tried to present itself differently.

and tried to present itself differently. and tried to present itself differently. So these things are but these things are So these things are but these things are So these things are but these things are also kind of in in flux and now we're in also kind of in in flux and now we're in also kind of in in flux and now we're in this very unusual uh influx period. the this very unusual uh influx period. the this very unusual uh influx period. the beginning of the um the imposition of beginning of the um the imposition of beginning of the um the imposition of tariffs there were leaders of China, tariffs there were leaders of China, tariffs there were leaders of China, Japan and Korea all to South Korea all Japan and Korea all to South Korea all Japan and Korea all to South Korea all together in photo ops which was not together in photo ops which was not together in photo ops which was not something that I mean being on the same something that I mean being on the same something that I mean being on the same side. So I think this is also just a side. So I think this is also just a side. So I think this is also just a kind of broader lesson to not not assume kind of broader lesson to not not assume kind of broader lesson to not not assume that configurations will always stay if that configurations will always stay if that configurations will always stay if you look out into the 21st century. you look out into the 21st century. you look out into the 21st century. What are some of the best possible What are some of the best possible What are some of the best possible things that could happen in the region things that could happen in the region things that could happen in the region and globally with China at the center of and globally with China at the center of and globally with China at the center of the world stage? What are the possible the world stage? What are the possible the world stage? What are the possible trajectories you could see trajectories you could see trajectories you could see culturally, economically, culturally, economically, culturally, economically, politically in terms of partnerships and politically in terms of partnerships and politically in terms of partnerships and all this kind of all this kind of all this kind of stuff? It's such a such a such a hard stuff? It's such a such a such a hard stuff? It's such a such a such a hard moment to be imagining these things. I moment to be imagining these things. I moment to be imagining these things. I mean, I've all I've long wanted to mean, I've all I've long wanted to mean, I've all I've long wanted to see a return of China to this path see a return of China to this path see a return of China to this path toward a more kind of toward a more kind of toward a more kind of um yeah, I wasn't one of the people who um yeah, I wasn't one of the people who um yeah, I wasn't one of the people who imagined imagined imagined that there would be this convergence of that there would be this convergence of that there would be this convergence of sort of where China's emergence into sort of where China's emergence into sort of where China's emergence into evolution into a liberal capitalist kind evolution into a liberal capitalist kind evolution into a liberal capitalist kind of country. But I'd love to see a return of country. But I'd love to see a return of country. But I'd love to see a return to that more kind of tolerance of

to that more kind of tolerance of to that more kind of tolerance of diversity within China, variations diversity within China, variations diversity within China, variations within China, of more space for civil within China, of more space for civil within China, of more space for civil society. And it's it's a hard time to society. And it's it's a hard time to society. And it's it's a hard time to even imagine that because Hong Kong kind even imagine that because Hong Kong kind even imagine that because Hong Kong kind of of of represented represented represented that place that was somehow within it that place that was somehow within it that place that was somehow within it was it was an amazing thing. I think was it was an amazing thing. I think was it was an amazing thing. I think looking backward sorry rather than looking backward sorry rather than looking backward sorry rather than forward I think it's really forward I think it's really forward I think it's really extraordinary how much leeway was given extraordinary how much leeway was given extraordinary how much leeway was given to Hong Kong for a period there that was to Hong Kong for a period there that was to Hong Kong for a period there that was really special no communist partyrun really special no communist partyrun really special no communist partyrun country had ever had a city within it country had ever had a city within it country had ever had a city within it that had as free a press as Hong Kong that had as free a press as Hong Kong that had as free a press as Hong Kong had then as much tolerance for for had then as much tolerance for for had then as much tolerance for for protests and and I think it was it was a protests and and I think it was it was a protests and and I think it was it was a I mean I hope it can be seen by some at I mean I hope it can be seen by some at I mean I hope it can be seen by some at least within Beijing as a miscalculation least within Beijing as a miscalculation least within Beijing as a miscalculation too. The people of China wanted soft too. The people of China wanted soft too. The people of China wanted soft power and Hong Kong films were admired power and Hong Kong films were admired power and Hong Kong films were admired around the world. This industry it was around the world. This industry it was around the world. This industry it was there was a way in which creat there was a way in which creat there was a way in which creat creativity flour flourishing. So I guess creativity flour flourishing. So I guess creativity flour flourishing. So I guess it would be just the hope for it would be just the hope for it would be just the hope for more spaces where that kind of um more spaces where that kind of um more spaces where that kind of um creativity and openness to where things creativity and openness to where things creativity and openness to where things can can flourish. I' I'd love to think can can flourish. I' I'd love to think can can flourish. I' I'd love to think that there there actually are variety of that there there actually are variety of that there there actually are variety of things in Taiwan that if those could things in Taiwan that if those could things in Taiwan that if those could become broader become broader become broader norms. Um not not that Taiwan's perfect.

norms. Um not not that Taiwan's perfect. norms. Um not not that Taiwan's perfect. It has its own internal problems, but It has its own internal problems, but It has its own internal problems, but there there are many really attractive there there are many really attractive there there are many really attractive things about it right now, things things about it right now, things things about it right now, things different kinds of things that flourish. different kinds of things that flourish. different kinds of things that flourish. Um so maybe uh maybe Um so maybe uh maybe Um so maybe uh maybe a setting in which Taiwan and in its a setting in which Taiwan and in its a setting in which Taiwan and in its post post post martial law post Leninist incarnation martial law post Leninist incarnation martial law post Leninist incarnation um would be something that we could um would be something that we could um would be something that we could think of more. Yeah, and you're right. think of more. Yeah, and you're right. think of more. Yeah, and you're right. Taiwan and especially Hong Kong are Taiwan and especially Hong Kong are Taiwan and especially Hong Kong are these it's a truly special place is a these it's a truly special place is a these it's a truly special place is a case study. It doesn't make sense that case study. It doesn't make sense that case study. It doesn't make sense that that would happen but it happened. I that would happen but it happened. I that would happen but it happened. I mean history is full of wonderful things mean history is full of wonderful things mean history is full of wonderful things like this. And I guess can you clarify? like this. And I guess can you clarify? like this. And I guess can you clarify? You think the protests of 2019, like the You think the protests of 2019, like the You think the protests of 2019, like the protest in protest in protest in 20 mostly a failure? Is there still a 20 mostly a failure? Is there still a 20 mostly a failure? Is there still a possibility that Hong Kong like rises possibility that Hong Kong like rises possibility that Hong Kong like rises and its way of life, its way of being, and its way of life, its way of being, and its way of life, its way of being, the democrat democratic ideals, not the democrat democratic ideals, not the democrat democratic ideals, not necessarily full-on democracy or this necessarily full-on democracy or this necessarily full-on democracy or this kind of thing, but would actually uh in kind of thing, but would actually uh in kind of thing, but would actually uh in a a a sense um permeate China, not the other sense um permeate China, not the other sense um permeate China, not the other way around. So that that was a hope way around. So that that was a hope way around. So that that was a hope early on and there were ways in which early on and there were ways in which early on and there were ways in which some parts of Hong Kong style even sort some parts of Hong Kong style even sort some parts of Hong Kong style even sort of permeated across the border. I think of permeated across the border. I think of permeated across the border. I think it's hard to see it now with how Hong it's hard to see it now with how Hong it's hard to see it now with how Hong Kong has changed, but I hesitate to I

Kong has changed, but I hesitate to I Kong has changed, but I hesitate to I mean an awareness of the mean an awareness of the mean an awareness of the unpredictability of things who there's unpredictability of things who there's unpredictability of things who there's no way to know what kind of thing there no way to know what kind of thing there no way to know what kind of thing there would be for Hong Kong later. I do think would be for Hong Kong later. I do think would be for Hong Kong later. I do think there are things about Hong Kong that there are things about Hong Kong that there are things about Hong Kong that even in the failure of the movement have even in the failure of the movement have even in the failure of the movement have been have been have been have had repercussions that are not uh not had repercussions that are not uh not had repercussions that are not uh not all negative. I think the Hong Kong all negative. I think the Hong Kong all negative. I think the Hong Kong spirit which is being kept alive in spirit which is being kept alive in spirit which is being kept alive in diaspora diaspora diaspora communities around the world is really communities around the world is really communities around the world is really interesting. There are there are things interesting. There are there are things interesting. There are there are things that are um spreading. I think Hong Kong that are um spreading. I think Hong Kong that are um spreading. I think Hong Kong represented a vision of a different way represented a vision of a different way represented a vision of a different way of being Chinese, a different notion of of being Chinese, a different notion of of being Chinese, a different notion of Chineseeness. And I think that is Chineseeness. And I think that is Chineseeness. And I think that is something that exists. Um and there have something that exists. Um and there have something that exists. Um and there have been protesters in a lot of other parts been protesters in a lot of other parts been protesters in a lot of other parts of the world. Barus to I used to say of the world. Barus to I used to say of the world. Barus to I used to say from Min Minneapolis to Minsk because in from Min Minneapolis to Minsk because in from Min Minneapolis to Minsk because in 2020 there were protests in the US and 2020 there were protests in the US and 2020 there were protests in the US and in Barus where there were activists who in Barus where there were activists who in Barus where there were activists who were talking about the Hong Kong idea of were talking about the Hong Kong idea of were talking about the Hong Kong idea of sort of trying to focus on um be water sort of trying to focus on um be water sort of trying to focus on um be water more flexible protest tactics or more flexible protest tactics or more flexible protest tactics or something. And clearly in Thailand, something. And clearly in Thailand, something. And clearly in Thailand, there were people who looked at things there were people who looked at things there were people who looked at things to learn from Hong Kong even in defeat.

to learn from Hong Kong even in defeat. to learn from Hong Kong even in defeat. There's a New Zealandbased China There's a New Zealandbased China There's a New Zealandbased China specialist Jeremy Barme who talks about specialist Jeremy Barme who talks about specialist Jeremy Barme who talks about the other China which can exist within the other China which can exist within the other China which can exist within China, physical China or elsewhere which China, physical China or elsewhere which China, physical China or elsewhere which is this um equally attached to Chinese is this um equally attached to Chinese is this um equally attached to Chinese traditions but thinking of those traditions but thinking of those traditions but thinking of those traditions as including not just traditions as including not just traditions as including not just Confucianism but Dowoism, not just Confucianism but Dowoism, not just Confucianism but Dowoism, not just hierarchy but also openness to hierarchy but also openness to hierarchy but also openness to cosmopolitanism, not just nationalism cosmopolitanism, not just nationalism cosmopolitanism, not just nationalism but cosmopolitanism. but cosmopolitanism. but cosmopolitanism. And I think there are some And I think there are some And I think there are some um there are some elements of that that um there are some elements of that that um there are some elements of that that even in failure the Hong Kong movements even in failure the Hong Kong movements even in failure the Hong Kong movements the Hong Kong protests of the 2020s were the Hong Kong protests of the 2020s were the Hong Kong protests of the 2020s were a last flourishing of that and we can a last flourishing of that and we can a last flourishing of that and we can see some elements of that in um in we see some elements of that in um in we see some elements of that in um in we can think of Taiwan elements of that as can think of Taiwan elements of that as can think of Taiwan elements of that as another China as well. Um and I think another China as well. Um and I think another China as well. Um and I think recovering not allowing the particular recovering not allowing the particular recovering not allowing the particular version of Chineseeness that the Chinese version of Chineseeness that the Chinese version of Chineseeness that the Chinese Communist Party under Xiinping wants to Communist Party under Xiinping wants to Communist Party under Xiinping wants to make people think of as the essence of make people think of as the essence of make people think of as the essence of Chinese. Chinese there. China has Chinese. Chinese there. China has Chinese. Chinese there. China has multiple cultural strands, multiple multiple cultural strands, multiple multiple cultural strands, multiple traditions that people can um tap into.

traditions that people can um tap into. traditions that people can um tap into. And it's something richer and um more And it's something richer and um more And it's something richer and um more admirable, I think, than this narrowed admirable, I think, than this narrowed admirable, I think, than this narrowed down version. And I hope for a future down version. And I hope for a future down version. And I hope for a future where both Hong Kong and uh Beijing have where both Hong Kong and uh Beijing have where both Hong Kong and uh Beijing have bookstores that carry 1984, Brave New bookstores that carry 1984, Brave New bookstores that carry 1984, Brave New World, and all of your books. World, and all of your books. World, and all of your books. And uh I can't wait to visit And uh I can't wait to visit And uh I can't wait to visit them and enjoy the intellectual them and enjoy the intellectual them and enjoy the intellectual flourishing of incredible people. What a flourishing of incredible people. What a flourishing of incredible people. What a beautiful world we live in. The Chinese beautiful world we live in. The Chinese beautiful world we live in. The Chinese people, all the people I've met is just people, all the people I've met is just people, all the people I've met is just so so so great to interact with a totally great to interact with a totally great to interact with a totally different culture. You can feel the different culture. You can feel the different culture. You can feel the roots run deep through ancient history roots run deep through ancient history roots run deep through ancient history that are very different. And it's that are very different. And it's that are very different. And it's amazing. It's like amazing that earth amazing. It's like amazing that earth amazing. It's like amazing that earth produced Chinese people, Indian people, produced Chinese people, Indian people, produced Chinese people, Indian people, the Slavic people. There's just all the Slavic people. There's just all the Slavic people. There's just all kinds of varants and we're all have our kinds of varants and we're all have our kinds of varants and we're all have our own weirdnesses and quirks and so on.

own weirdnesses and quirks and so on. own weirdnesses and quirks and so on. Everybody has brilliant people. We all Everybody has brilliant people. We all Everybody has brilliant people. We all start shit with each other every once in start shit with each other every once in start shit with each other every once in a while. But I I hope now that we have a while. But I I hope now that we have a while. But I I hope now that we have nuclear weapons and I hope now that we nuclear weapons and I hope now that we nuclear weapons and I hope now that we have technology that connects us, we'll have technology that connects us, we'll have technology that connects us, we'll actually actually actually uh we'll actually collaborate more than uh we'll actually collaborate more than uh we'll actually collaborate more than we fight each other. And thank you for we fight each other. And thank you for we fight each other. And thank you for being one of the people that shows off being one of the people that shows off being one of the people that shows off the beauty of this particular peoples. the beauty of this particular peoples. the beauty of this particular peoples. It's uh of the entire region really of It's uh of the entire region really of It's uh of the entire region really of Southeast Asia. And it's it's an honor Southeast Asia. And it's it's an honor Southeast Asia. And it's it's an honor to talk to you. Thank you so much. to talk to you. Thank you so much. to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on. Thanks for Thanks for having me on. Thanks for Thanks for having me on. Thanks for listening to this conversation with listening to this conversation with listening to this conversation with Jeffrey Waserstrom. To support this Jeffrey Waserstrom. To support this Jeffrey Waserstrom. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors podcast, please check out our sponsors podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me in the description. And now, let me in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from leave you with some words from leave you with some words from Confucious. When anger Confucious. When anger Confucious. When anger rises, think of the rises, think of the rises, think of the consequences. Thank you for listening consequences. Thank you for listening consequences. Thank you for listening and hope to see you next time.