John Carmack: Doom, Quake, VR, AGI, Programming, Video Games, and Rockets | Lex Fridman Podcast #309

I remember the reaction where he had I remember the reaction where he had drawn these characters and he was slowly drawn these characters and he was slowly drawn these characters and he was slowly moving around and like people had no moving around and like people had no moving around and like people had no experience with 3D navigation it was all experience with 3D navigation it was all experience with 3D navigation it was all still keyboard we didn't even have mice still keyboard we didn't even have mice still keyboard we didn't even have mice uh set up at that time but slowly moving uh set up at that time but slowly moving uh set up at that time but slowly moving going up picked up a key go to a wall going up picked up a key go to a wall going up picked up a key go to a wall the wall disappears in a little the wall disappears in a little the wall disappears in a little animation and there's a monster like animation and there's a monster like animation and there's a monster like right there and he practically fell out right there and he practically fell out right there and he practically fell out of his chair it was just like ah and of his chair it was just like ah and of his chair it was just like ah and games just didn't do that you know the games just didn't do that you know the games just didn't do that you know the games were the God's eye view you were a games were the God's eye view you were a games were the God's eye view you were a little invested in your little guy you little invested in your little guy you little invested in your little guy you can be like you know happy or sad when can be like you know happy or sad when can be like you know happy or sad when things happen but you just did not get things happen but you just did not get things happen but you just did not get that kind of startle that kind of startle that kind of startle reaction your face something in the back reaction your face something in the back reaction your face something in the back of your brain some reptile brain thing of your brain some reptile brain thing of your brain some reptile brain thing is just going oh something just is just going oh something just is just going oh something just happened and that was one of those early happened and that was one of those early happened and that was one of those early points where it's like yeah this is points where it's like yeah this is points where it's like yeah this is going to make a difference this is going going to make a difference this is going going to make a difference this is going to be powerful and it's going to to be powerful and it's going to to be powerful and it's going to matter the following is a conversation matter the following is a conversation matter the following is a conversation with John carac widely considered to be with John carac widely considered to be with John carac widely considered to be one of the greatest programmers ever he one of the greatest programmers ever he one of the greatest programmers ever he was the co-founder of ID software and was the co-founder of ID software and was the co-founder of ID software and the lead programmer on several games the lead programmer on several games the lead programmer on several games that revolutionized the technology the that revolutionized the technology the that revolutionized the technology the experience and the role of gaming in our experience and the role of gaming in our experience and the role of gaming in our society including Commander Keane society including Commander Keane society including Commander Keane Wolfenstein 3D doom and Quake he spent Wolfenstein 3D doom and Quake he spent Wolfenstein 3D doom and Quake he spent many years as the CTO of oculus VR many years as the CTO of oculus VR many years as the CTO of oculus VR helping to create portals into Virtual helping to create portals into Virtual helping to create portals into Virtual Worlds and to define the technological Worlds and to define the technological Worlds and to define the technological path to the metaverse at meta and now he path to the metaverse at meta and now he path to the metaverse at meta and now he has been shifting some some of his has been shifting some some of his has been shifting some some of his attention to the problem of artificial

attention to the problem of artificial attention to the problem of artificial general general general intelligence this was the longest intelligence this was the longest intelligence this was the longest conversation on this podcast at over 5 conversation on this podcast at over 5 conversation on this podcast at over 5 hours and still I could talk to John hours and still I could talk to John hours and still I could talk to John many many more times and we hope to do many many more times and we hope to do many many more times and we hope to do just that this is the Lex Freedman just that this is the Lex Freedman just that this is the Lex Freedman podcast to support it please check out podcast to support it please check out podcast to support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now our sponsors in the description and now dear friends here's John dear friends here's John dear friends here's John carac what was the first program you've carac what was the first program you've carac what was the first program you've ever written do you remember yeah I do ever written do you remember yeah I do ever written do you remember yeah I do so I remember being in a Radio Shack so I remember being in a Radio Shack so I remember being in a Radio Shack going up to the trs8 computers and going up to the trs8 computers and going up to the trs8 computers and learning just enough to be able to do 10 learning just enough to be able to do 10 learning just enough to be able to do 10 print John carac I and it's kind of print John carac I and it's kind of print John carac I and it's kind of interesting how of course I you know interesting how of course I you know interesting how of course I you know carnigan en Richie kind of standardized carnigan en Richie kind of standardized carnigan en Richie kind of standardized hello world is the first thing that you hello world is the first thing that you hello world is the first thing that you do in every computer programming do in every computer programming do in every computer programming language and every computer but not language and every computer but not language and every computer but not having any interaction with the cultures having any interaction with the cultures having any interaction with the cultures of Unix or any other standardized things of Unix or any other standardized things of Unix or any other standardized things it was just like well what am I going to it was just like well what am I going to it was just like well what am I going to say I'm going to say my name and then say I'm going to say my name and then say I'm going to say my name and then you learn how to do goto1 and have it you learn how to do goto1 and have it you learn how to do goto1 and have it scroll all off the screen and that was scroll all off the screen and that was scroll all off the screen and that was definitely the first thing that I wound definitely the first thing that I wound definitely the first thing that I wound up doing on a computer can I ask you up doing on a computer can I ask you up doing on a computer can I ask you programming advice I was always told in programming advice I was always told in programming advice I was always told in the beginning that you're not allowed to the beginning that you're not allowed to the beginning that you're not allowed to use go-to statements that's really bad use go-to statements that's really bad use go-to statements that's really bad programming is this correct or not programming is this correct or not programming is this correct or not jumping around code can can we look at jumping around code can can we look at jumping around code can can we look at the philosophy and the technical uh the philosophy and the technical uh the philosophy and the technical uh aspects of the go-to statement that aspects of the go-to statement that aspects of the go-to statement that seems so convenient but it's supposed to seems so convenient but it's supposed to seems so convenient but it's supposed to cly back in the day in basic programming cly back in the day in basic programming cly back in the day in basic programming languages you didn't have proper Loops languages you didn't have proper Loops languages you didn't have proper Loops you didn't have four whils and repeats you didn't have four whils and repeats you didn't have four whils and repeats you know that was the land of Pascal for

you know that was the land of Pascal for you know that was the land of Pascal for people that kind of generally had access people that kind of generally had access people that kind of generally had access to it back then so you had no choice but to it back then so you had no choice but to it back then so you had no choice but to use Goos and as you made what were to use Goos and as you made what were to use Goos and as you made what were big programs back then which were a big programs back then which were a big programs back then which were a thousand line basic program is a really thousand line basic program is a really thousand line basic program is a really big program they did tend to sort of big program they did tend to sort of big program they did tend to sort of degenerate into madness uh you didn't degenerate into madness uh you didn't degenerate into madness uh you didn't have good editors or code exploration have good editors or code exploration have good editors or code exploration tools so you would wind up fixing things tools so you would wind up fixing things tools so you would wind up fixing things in one place add a little patch and in one place add a little patch and in one place add a little patch and there's reasons why structured there's reasons why structured there's reasons why structured programming generally helps programming generally helps programming generally helps understanding but go-tos aren't understanding but go-tos aren't understanding but go-tos aren't poisonous sometimes they're the right poisonous sometimes they're the right poisonous sometimes they're the right thing to do uh usually it's because thing to do uh usually it's because thing to do uh usually it's because there's a a language feature missing there's a a language feature missing there's a a language feature missing like nested breakes or something where like nested breakes or something where like nested breakes or something where it's it can sometimes be better to do a it's it can sometimes be better to do a it's it can sometimes be better to do a go-to cleanup or go-to error rather than go-to cleanup or go-to error rather than go-to cleanup or go-to error rather than having multiple Flags multiple if having multiple Flags multiple if having multiple Flags multiple if statements littered throughout things statements littered throughout things statements littered throughout things but but it is rare I if you grip through but but it is rare I if you grip through but but it is rare I if you grip through all of my code right now um I don't all of my code right now um I don't all of my code right now um I don't think any of my current code bases would think any of my current code bases would think any of my current code bases would actually have a go-to but actually have a go-to but actually have a go-to but deep within sort of the technical deep within sort of the technical deep within sort of the technical underpinnings of a major game engine underpinnings of a major game engine underpinnings of a major game engine you're going to have some go-tos in a you're going to have some go-tos in a you're going to have some go-tos in a couple places probably yeah the couple places probably yeah the couple places probably yeah the infrastructure on top of like the closer infrastructure on top of like the closer infrastructure on top of like the closer you get to the machine code the more you get to the machine code the more you get to the machine code the more go-tos you're going to see the more of go-tos you're going to see the more of go-tos you're going to see the more of these like hacks you're going to see these like hacks you're going to see these like hacks you're going to see because uh the set of features available because uh the set of features available because uh the set of features available to you in low-level programming to you in low-level programming to you in low-level programming languages is not uh is limited languages is not uh is limited languages is not uh is limited so print John carac when is the first so print John carac when is the first so print John carac when is the first time if we could talk about love that time if we could talk about love that time if we could talk about love that you fell in love with programming you you fell in love with programming you you fell in love with programming you said like this this is really something said like this this is really something said like this this is really something special it really was something that was

special it really was something that was special it really was something that was one of those love at first sight things one of those love at first sight things one of those love at first sight things where just really from the time that I where just really from the time that I where just really from the time that I understood what a computer was even I understood what a computer was even I understood what a computer was even I mean I remember looking through old mean I remember looking through old mean I remember looking through old encyclopedias at the black and white encyclopedias at the black and white encyclopedias at the black and white photos of the IBM main frames with the photos of the IBM main frames with the photos of the IBM main frames with the real toore tape decks and for people real toore tape decks and for people real toore tape decks and for people nowadays it can be a little hard to nowadays it can be a little hard to nowadays it can be a little hard to understand what the world was like then understand what the world was like then understand what the world was like then from information gathering where I would from information gathering where I would from information gathering where I would go to the libraries and there would be go to the libraries and there would be go to the libraries and there would be couple books on the Shelf about couple books on the Shelf about couple books on the Shelf about computers and they would be very out of computers and they would be very out of computers and they would be very out of date even at that point just not a lot date even at that point just not a lot date even at that point just not a lot of information but I would grab of information but I would grab of information but I would grab everything that I could find and you everything that I could find and you everything that I could find and you know devour everything whenever time or know devour everything whenever time or know devour everything whenever time or Newsweek had some article about Newsweek had some article about Newsweek had some article about computers I would like cut it out with computers I would like cut it out with computers I would like cut it out with scissors and put it somewhere it just it scissors and put it somewhere it just it scissors and put it somewhere it just it felt like this magical thing to me this felt like this magical thing to me this felt like this magical thing to me this idea that the computer would just do idea that the computer would just do idea that the computer would just do exactly what you told it to I mean and exactly what you told it to I mean and exactly what you told it to I mean and there's a little bit of the genie there's a little bit of the genie there's a little bit of the genie monkeys paw sort of issues there where monkeys paw sort of issues there where monkeys paw sort of issues there where you'd better be really really careful you'd better be really really careful you'd better be really really careful with what you're telling it to do but it with what you're telling it to do but it with what you're telling it to do but it wasn't going to back talk you it wasn't wasn't going to back talk you it wasn't wasn't going to back talk you it wasn't going to have a different point of view going to have a different point of view going to have a different point of view it was going to carry out what you told it was going to carry out what you told it was going to carry out what you told it to do and if you had the right it to do and if you had the right it to do and if you had the right commands you could make it do these commands you could make it do these commands you could make it do these pretty magical things and so what kind pretty magical things and so what kind pretty magical things and so what kind of programs did you write at first so be of programs did you write at first so be of programs did you write at first so be on the print John carac so I can on the print John carac so I can on the print John carac so I can remember as going through the learning remember as going through the learning remember as going through the learning process where you find at the start process where you find at the start process where you find at the start you're just learning how to do the most you're just learning how to do the most you're just learning how to do the most basic possible things and I can remember basic possible things and I can remember basic possible things and I can remember stuff like uh uh Superman com IC that stuff like uh uh Superman com IC that stuff like uh uh Superman com IC that Radio Shack commissioned to have I it's Radio Shack commissioned to have I it's Radio Shack commissioned to have I it's like Superman had lost some of his super like Superman had lost some of his super like Superman had lost some of his super brain and kids had to use Radio Shack brain and kids had to use Radio Shack brain and kids had to use Radio Shack trs8 computers to do calculations for to

trs8 computers to do calculations for to trs8 computers to do calculations for to help him kind of complete his heroics help him kind of complete his heroics help him kind of complete his heroics and I'd find little things like that um and I'd find little things like that um and I'd find little things like that um and then get a few basic books to be and then get a few basic books to be and then get a few basic books to be able to kind of work my way up and again able to kind of work my way up and again able to kind of work my way up and again it was so precious back then I had a it was so precious back then I had a it was so precious back then I had a couple books that would teach me couple books that would teach me couple books that would teach me important things about it I had one book important things about it I had one book important things about it I had one book that I could start to little learn a that I could start to little learn a that I could start to little learn a little bit of assembly language from and little bit of assembly language from and little bit of assembly language from and I'd have a few books on basic and some I'd have a few books on basic and some I'd have a few books on basic and some things that I could get from the things that I could get from the things that I could get from the libraries but I my goals in the early libraries but I my goals in the early libraries but I my goals in the early days was almost always making games of days was almost always making games of days was almost always making games of various kinds you know I had uh I loved various kinds you know I had uh I loved various kinds you know I had uh I loved the arcade games and the early Atari the arcade games and the early Atari the arcade games and the early Atari 2600 games and being able to do some of 2600 games and being able to do some of 2600 games and being able to do some of those things myself on the computers was those things myself on the computers was those things myself on the computers was very much what I aspired to and it was a very much what I aspired to and it was a very much what I aspired to and it was a whole journey where if you learn normal whole journey where if you learn normal whole journey where if you learn normal basic you can't do any kind of an action basic you can't do any kind of an action basic you can't do any kind of an action game you can write an adventure game you game you can write an adventure game you game you can write an adventure game you can write things where you say what do can write things where you say what do can write things where you say what do you do here uh get sworded attack troll you do here uh get sworded attack troll you do here uh get sworded attack troll that type of thing and that can be done that type of thing and that can be done that type of thing and that can be done in the context of basic uh but to do in the context of basic uh but to do in the context of basic uh but to do things that had moving Graphics there things that had moving Graphics there things that had moving Graphics there were only the most limited things you were only the most limited things you were only the most limited things you could possibly do you could maybe do could possibly do you could maybe do could possibly do you could maybe do breakout or pong or that sort of thing breakout or pong or that sort of thing breakout or pong or that sort of thing in low resolution graphics and in fact in low resolution graphics and in fact in low resolution graphics and in fact one of my first sort of major technical one of my first sort of major technical one of my first sort of major technical hacks that I was kind of fond of was on hacks that I was kind of fond of was on hacks that I was kind of fond of was on the Apple 2 computers they had a they the Apple 2 computers they had a they the Apple 2 computers they had a they had a Mode called low resolution had a Mode called low resolution had a Mode called low resolution Graphics where of course all Graphics Graphics where of course all Graphics Graphics where of course all Graphics were low resolution back then but you were low resolution back then but you were low resolution back then but you know regular low resolution Graphics it know regular low resolution Graphics it know regular low resolution Graphics it was a grid of 40x40 pixels normally but was a grid of 40x40 pixels normally but was a grid of 40x40 pixels normally but they could have 16 different colors and

they could have 16 different colors and they could have 16 different colors and I wanted to make a game kind of like the I wanted to make a game kind of like the I wanted to make a game kind of like the uh the arcade game Vanguard just a uh the arcade game Vanguard just a uh the arcade game Vanguard just a scrolling game and I wanted to just kind scrolling game and I wanted to just kind scrolling game and I wanted to just kind of have it scroll vertically up and I of have it scroll vertically up and I of have it scroll vertically up and I could move a little ship around you could move a little ship around you could move a little ship around you could manage to do that in basic but could manage to do that in basic but could manage to do that in basic but there's no way you could redraw the there's no way you could redraw the there's no way you could redraw the whole screen and I remember at the time whole screen and I remember at the time whole screen and I remember at the time just coming up with what felt like a just coming up with what felt like a just coming up with what felt like a brainstorm to me where I knew enough brainstorm to me where I knew enough brainstorm to me where I knew enough about the way the hardware was about the way the hardware was about the way the hardware was controlled where the text screen and the controlled where the text screen and the controlled where the text screen and the low resolution Graphics screen were low resolution Graphics screen were low resolution Graphics screen were basically the same thing and all those basically the same thing and all those basically the same thing and all those computers could scroll their text screen computers could scroll their text screen computers could scroll their text screen reasonably you could do a listing and it reasonably you could do a listing and it reasonably you could do a listing and it would scroll things up and I figured out would scroll things up and I figured out would scroll things up and I figured out that I could kind of tweak just a couple that I could kind of tweak just a couple that I could kind of tweak just a couple things that I barely understood to put things that I barely understood to put things that I barely understood to put it into a graphics mode and I could draw it into a graphics mode and I could draw it into a graphics mode and I could draw graphics and then I could just do a line graphics and then I could just do a line graphics and then I could just do a line feed at the very bottom of the screen feed at the very bottom of the screen feed at the very bottom of the screen and then the system would scroll it all and then the system would scroll it all and then the system would scroll it all up using an Assembly Language routine up using an Assembly Language routine up using an Assembly Language routine that I didn't know how to write back that I didn't know how to write back that I didn't know how to write back then so I that was like this first great then so I that was like this first great then so I that was like this first great hack that sort of had analoges later on hack that sort of had analoges later on hack that sort of had analoges later on in my career for a lot of different in my career for a lot of different in my career for a lot of different things so I found out that I could draw things so I found out that I could draw things so I found out that I could draw a screen I could do a line feed at the a screen I could do a line feed at the a screen I could do a line feed at the bottom it would scroll it up once I bottom it would scroll it up once I bottom it would scroll it up once I could draw a couple more lines of stuff could draw a couple more lines of stuff could draw a couple more lines of stuff at the bottom and that was my first way at the bottom and that was my first way at the bottom and that was my first way to kind of scroll the screen which I you to kind of scroll the screen which I you to kind of scroll the screen which I you know which was interesting and that that know which was interesting and that that know which was interesting and that that played a big part later on in the ID played a big part later on in the ID played a big part later on in the ID software days as well so do efficient software days as well so do efficient software days as well so do efficient scroll efficient scroll efficient scroll efficient drawing where you don't have to draw the drawing where you don't have to draw the drawing where you don't have to draw the whole screen but you draw from the whole screen but you draw from the whole screen but you draw from the bottom using the thing that was designed bottom using the thing that was designed bottom using the thing that was designed in the hardware for text output yeah in the hardware for text output yeah in the hardware for text output yeah where so much of until recently I game where so much of until recently I game where so much of until recently I game design was limited by what you could

design was limited by what you could design was limited by what you could actually get the computer to do where actually get the computer to do where actually get the computer to do where it's easy to say like okay I want to it's easy to say like okay I want to it's easy to say like okay I want to scroll the screen you just redraw the scroll the screen you just redraw the scroll the screen you just redraw the entire screen at a slight offset and entire screen at a slight offset and entire screen at a slight offset and nowadays that works just fine computers nowadays that works just fine computers nowadays that works just fine computers are ludicrously fast uh but up until a are ludicrously fast uh but up until a are ludicrously fast uh but up until a decade ago or so there were all these decade ago or so there were all these decade ago or so there were all these things everybody wanted to do but if things everybody wanted to do but if things everybody wanted to do but if they knew enough programming to be able they knew enough programming to be able they knew enough programming to be able to make it happen it would happen too to make it happen it would happen too to make it happen it would happen too slow to be a good experience either just slow to be a good experience either just slow to be a good experience either just ridiculously slow or just slow enough ridiculously slow or just slow enough ridiculously slow or just slow enough that it wasn't fun to experience it like that it wasn't fun to experience it like that it wasn't fun to experience it like that so so much of kind of the first that so so much of kind of the first that so so much of kind of the first couple decades of the programming work couple decades of the programming work couple decades of the programming work that I did was largely figuring out how that I did was largely figuring out how that I did was largely figuring out how to do something that everybody knows how to do something that everybody knows how to do something that everybody knows how they want it to to happen it just has to they want it to to happen it just has to they want it to to happen it just has to happen two to 10 times faster than sort happen two to 10 times faster than sort happen two to 10 times faster than sort of the straightforward way of doing of the straightforward way of doing of the straightforward way of doing things would make it happen and it's things would make it happen and it's things would make it happen and it's different now because at this point lots different now because at this point lots different now because at this point lots of things you can just do in the most of things you can just do in the most of things you can just do in the most naive possible way and it still works naive possible way and it still works naive possible way and it still works out you know you don't have nearly the out you know you don't have nearly the out you know you don't have nearly the creative limitations or the incentives creative limitations or the incentives creative limitations or the incentives for optimizing on that level and there's for optimizing on that level and there's for optimizing on that level and there's a lot of pros and cons to that but I do a lot of pros and cons to that but I do a lot of pros and cons to that but I do generally you know I'm not going to do generally you know I'm not going to do generally you know I'm not going to do the the angry old man shaking my fist at the the angry old man shaking my fist at the the angry old man shaking my fist at the clouds bit where back in my day the clouds bit where back in my day the clouds bit where back in my day programmers had to do real programming programmers had to do real programming programmers had to do real programming you know it's it's amazing that you can you know it's it's amazing that you can you know it's it's amazing that you can just kind of pick an idea and go do it just kind of pick an idea and go do it just kind of pick an idea and go do it right now and you don't have to be some right now and you don't have to be some right now and you don't have to be some Assembly Language Wizard or deep GPU Assembly Language Wizard or deep GPU Assembly Language Wizard or deep GPU Arcanist to be able to figure out how to Arcanist to be able to figure out how to Arcanist to be able to figure out how to make your wishes happen well there's make your wishes happen well there's make your wishes happen well there's still see that's true but let me put on still see that's true but let me put on still see that's true but let me put on my old man with a fist hat and say that

my old man with a fist hat and say that my old man with a fist hat and say that probably the thing that will Define the probably the thing that will Define the probably the thing that will Define the future still requires you to operate at future still requires you to operate at future still requires you to operate at the limits of the current system so the limits of the current system so the limits of the current system so we'll probably talk about this but if we'll probably talk about this but if we'll probably talk about this but if you talk about building the meterse and you talk about building the meterse and you talk about building the meterse and building a VR experience that's building a VR experience that's building a VR experience that's compelling it probably requires you to compelling it probably requires you to compelling it probably requires you to not to go to assembly or maybe not not to go to assembly or maybe not not to go to assembly or maybe not literally but sort of uh spiritually to literally but sort of uh spiritually to literally but sort of uh spiritually to go to the limits of what the system is go to the limits of what the system is go to the limits of what the system is capable of yeah and that really was why capable of yeah and that really was why capable of yeah and that really was why virtual reality was um specifically virtual reality was um specifically virtual reality was um specifically interesting to me where it had all the interesting to me where it had all the interesting to me where it had all the ties to you could say that even back in ties to you could say that even back in ties to you could say that even back in the early days I have some old magazine the early days I have some old magazine the early days I have some old magazine articles that's talking about Doom as a articles that's talking about Doom as a articles that's talking about Doom as a virtual reality experience back when virtual reality experience back when virtual reality experience back when just seeing anything in 3D uh so you just seeing anything in 3D uh so you just seeing anything in 3D uh so you could say that we've been trying to could say that we've been trying to could say that we've been trying to build those virtual experiences from the build those virtual experiences from the build those virtual experiences from the very beginning and in the modern era of very beginning and in the modern era of very beginning and in the modern era of virtual reality especially on the mobile virtual reality especially on the mobile virtual reality especially on the mobile side of things when it's Standalone and side of things when it's Standalone and side of things when it's Standalone and you're basically using a cell phone chip you're basically using a cell phone chip you're basically using a cell phone chip to be able to produce these very to be able to produce these very to be able to produce these very immersive experiences it does require immersive experiences it does require immersive experiences it does require work it's not at the level of what an work it's not at the level of what an work it's not at the level of what an old school console game programmer would old school console game programmer would old school console game programmer would have operated at where you're looking at have operated at where you're looking at have operated at where you're looking at Hardware registers and you're scheduling Hardware registers and you're scheduling Hardware registers and you're scheduling all the DN uh dma accesses but it is all the DN uh dma accesses but it is all the DN uh dma accesses but it is still definitely a different level than still definitely a different level than still definitely a different level than what a web developer or uh or even a PC what a web developer or uh or even a PC what a web developer or uh or even a PC Steam game developer usually has to work Steam game developer usually has to work Steam game developer usually has to work at and again it's great there's at and again it's great there's at and again it's great there's opportunities for people that want to opportunities for people that want to opportunities for people that want to operate at either end of that Spectrum operate at either end of that Spectrum operate at either end of that Spectrum there and still provide a lot of value there and still provide a lot of value there and still provide a lot of value to the to the to the world let me ask you uh uh sort of a big

world let me ask you uh uh sort of a big world let me ask you uh uh sort of a big question about preference what would you question about preference what would you question about preference what would you say is the best programming say is the best programming say is the best programming language your favorite but also the best language your favorite but also the best language your favorite but also the best you've seen throughout your career you've seen throughout your career you've seen throughout your career you're considered by many to be the you're considered by many to be the you're considered by many to be the greatest programmer ever I mean it's so greatest programmer ever I mean it's so greatest programmer ever I mean it's so difficult to place that label on anyone difficult to place that label on anyone difficult to place that label on anyone if but if you put it on anyone it's you if but if you put it on anyone it's you if but if you put it on anyone it's you so let me ask you these kind of so let me ask you these kind of so let me ask you these kind of ridiculous questions of what's the best ridiculous questions of what's the best ridiculous questions of what's the best band of all time but in your case what's band of all time but in your case what's band of all time but in your case what's the best programming language everything the best programming language everything the best programming language everything has all the caveats about it but so what has all the caveats about it but so what has all the caveats about it but so what I use so nowadays I I do program a I use so nowadays I I do program a I use so nowadays I I do program a reasonable amount of python for AIML reasonable amount of python for AIML reasonable amount of python for AIML sorts of work uh that's I'm not a a sorts of work uh that's I'm not a a sorts of work uh that's I'm not a a native python programmer it's something native python programmer it's something native python programmer it's something I came to very late in my career I I came to very late in my career I I came to very late in my career I understand what it's good for dream in understand what it's good for dream in understand what it's good for dream in Python I do not and it has some of those Python I do not and it has some of those Python I do not and it has some of those things where there's some amazing stats things where there's some amazing stats things where there's some amazing stats when you say if you just start if you when you say if you just start if you when you say if you just start if you make a loop you know a triple nested make a loop you know a triple nested make a loop you know a triple nested Loop and start doing operations in Loop and start doing operations in Loop and start doing operations in Python you can be thousands to Python you can be thousands to Python you can be thousands to potentially a million times slower than potentially a million times slower than potentially a million times slower than a proper GPU tensor operation and these a proper GPU tensor operation and these a proper GPU tensor operation and these are staggering numbers you know you can are staggering numbers you know you can are staggering numbers you know you can be as much slower as we've almost gotten be as much slower as we've almost gotten be as much slower as we've almost gotten faster in our I you know our pace of faster in our I you know our pace of faster in our I you know our pace of progress and all this other miraculous progress and all this other miraculous progress and all this other miraculous stuff so your intuition is about stuff so your intuition is about stuff so your intuition is about inefficiencies within the the python inefficiencies within the the python inefficiencies within the the python sort of it keeps hitting me upside the sort of it keeps hitting me upside the sort of it keeps hitting me upside the face where it just it's gotten to the face where it just it's gotten to the face where it just it's gotten to the point now I understand it's like okay point now I understand it's like okay point now I understand it's like okay you just can't do a loop if you care you just can't do a loop if you care you just can't do a loop if you care about performance in Python you have to about performance in Python you have to about performance in Python you have to figure out how you can reformat this figure out how you can reformat this figure out how you can reformat this into some big Vector operation or into some big Vector operation or into some big Vector operation or something that's going to be done

something that's going to be done something that's going to be done completely within a C++ library but the completely within a C++ library but the completely within a C++ library but the other hand is it's it's amazingly other hand is it's it's amazingly other hand is it's it's amazingly convenient and you just see stuff that convenient and you just see stuff that convenient and you just see stuff that people are able to Cobble together by people are able to Cobble together by people are able to Cobble together by you just import a few different things you just import a few different things you just import a few different things and you can do stuff that nobody on and you can do stuff that nobody on and you can do stuff that nobody on Earth could do 10 years ago and can do Earth could do 10 years ago and can do Earth could do 10 years ago and can do it in a little cookbook thing that you it in a little cookbook thing that you it in a little cookbook thing that you copy pasted out of a website so that is copy pasted out of a website so that is copy pasted out of a website so that is really great when I'm sitting down to do really great when I'm sitting down to do really great when I'm sitting down to do what I consider kind of serious what I consider kind of serious what I consider kind of serious programming it's still in C++ and it's programming it's still in C++ and it's programming it's still in C++ and it's really kind of a CF flavored C++ at that really kind of a CF flavored C++ at that really kind of a CF flavored C++ at that where I'm not big into the modern uh where I'm not big into the modern uh where I'm not big into the modern uh template metaprogramming sorts of things template metaprogramming sorts of things template metaprogramming sorts of things I see a lot of train wrecks coming from I see a lot of train wrecks coming from I see a lot of train wrecks coming from some of that over some of that over some of that over abstraction uh I spent a few years abstraction uh I spent a few years abstraction uh I spent a few years really going kind of deep into the kind really going kind of deep into the kind really going kind of deep into the kind of the historical list board work and of the historical list board work and of the historical list board work and the hasal and some of the functional the hasal and some of the functional the hasal and some of the functional programming sides of things and programming sides of things and programming sides of things and there's there is a lot of value there in there's there is a lot of value there in there's there is a lot of value there in the way you think about things and I the way you think about things and I the way you think about things and I changed a lot of the way I write my CN changed a lot of the way I write my CN changed a lot of the way I write my CN C++ code based on what I learned about C++ code based on what I learned about C++ code based on what I learned about uh the value that comes out of not uh the value that comes out of not uh the value that comes out of not having this random mutable state that having this random mutable state that having this random mutable state that you kind of lose track of because you kind of lose track of because you kind of lose track of because something that many people don't really something that many people don't really something that many people don't really appreciate till they've been at it for a appreciate till they've been at it for a appreciate till they've been at it for a long time is that it's not the writing long time is that it's not the writing long time is that it's not the writing of the program initially it's the whole of the program initially it's the whole of the program initially it's the whole life span of the program and that's when life span of the program and that's when life span of the program and that's when it's not necessarily just how fast you it's not necessarily just how fast you it's not necessarily just how fast you wrote it or how how fast it operates but wrote it or how how fast it operates but wrote it or how how fast it operates but it's how can it Bend and adapt as it's how can it Bend and adapt as it's how can it Bend and adapt as situations change and then the thing situations change and then the thing situations change and then the thing that I've really been learning in my that I've really been learning in my that I've really been learning in my time at meta with uh the Oculus and VR time at meta with uh the Oculus and VR time at meta with uh the Oculus and VR work is it's also how well it hands off

work is it's also how well it hands off work is it's also how well it hands off between a continuous kind of revolving between a continuous kind of revolving between a continuous kind of revolving door of programmers taking over door of programmers taking over door of programmers taking over maintenance and different things and how maintenance and different things and how maintenance and different things and how you get people up to speed in different you get people up to speed in different you get people up to speed in different areas and there's all these other areas and there's all these other areas and there's all these other different aspects of it so C++ a good different aspects of it so C++ a good different aspects of it so C++ a good language for Handover between Engineers language for Handover between Engineers language for Handover between Engineers probably not the best uh and there's probably not the best uh and there's probably not the best uh and there's some really interesting aspects to this some really interesting aspects to this some really interesting aspects to this where in some cases languages that are where in some cases languages that are where in some cases languages that are not um that are not generally thought not um that are not generally thought not um that are not generally thought well of for many reasons like C is well of for many reasons like C is well of for many reasons like C is derided pretty broadly that yes derided pretty broadly that yes derided pretty broadly that yes obviously all of these security flaws obviously all of these security flaws obviously all of these security flaws that happen with the memory unsafe and that happen with the memory unsafe and that happen with the memory unsafe and uh buffer overruns and the things that uh buffer overruns and the things that uh buffer overruns and the things that you've got there but there is this you've got there but there is this you've got there but there is this underappreciated aspect to the language underappreciated aspect to the language underappreciated aspect to the language is so simple anyone can go and you know is so simple anyone can go and you know is so simple anyone can go and you know if you know C you can generally jump in if you know C you can generally jump in if you know C you can generally jump in someplace and not have to learn what someplace and not have to learn what someplace and not have to learn what paradigms they're using because they're paradigms they're using because they're paradigms they're using because they're just aren't that many available I think just aren't that many available I think just aren't that many available I think there's you know and there's some really there's you know and there's some really there's you know and there's some really really well-written C code like it's I really well-written C code like it's I really well-written C code like it's I find it great that if I'm messing around find it great that if I'm messing around find it great that if I'm messing around with something an open BSD say I mean I with something an open BSD say I mean I with something an open BSD say I mean I can be walking around in the kernel and can be walking around in the kernel and can be walking around in the kernel and I'm like I understand everything that's I'm like I understand everything that's I'm like I understand everything that's going on here uh it's not hard for me to going on here uh it's not hard for me to going on here uh it's not hard for me to figure out what's I you know what I need figure out what's I you know what I need figure out what's I you know what I need to do to to you know make whatever to do to to you know make whatever to do to to you know make whatever change that I need to change that I need to change that I need to while you can have you know more while you can have you know more while you can have you know more significant languages like it's a significant languages like it's a significant languages like it's a downside of lisp where I don't regret downside of lisp where I don't regret downside of lisp where I don't regret the time that I spent with lisp I I the time that I spent with lisp I I the time that I spent with lisp I I think that it I it did help you know think that it I it did help you know think that it I it did help you know help my thinking about programming in help my thinking about programming in help my thinking about programming in some ways but the people that are the some ways but the people that are the some ways but the people that are the biggest Defenders of lisp are saying how biggest Defenders of lisp are saying how biggest Defenders of lisp are saying how malleable of a language it is that if

malleable of a language it is that if malleable of a language it is that if you write a huge Lis program you've you write a huge Lis program you've you write a huge Lis program you've basically invented your own kind of basically invented your own kind of basically invented your own kind of language and structure because it's not language and structure because it's not language and structure because it's not The Primitives of the language you're The Primitives of the language you're The Primitives of the language you're using very much it's all of the things using very much it's all of the things using very much it's all of the things you've built on top of that and then a you've built on top of that and then a you've built on top of that and then a language like racket kind of one of the language like racket kind of one of the language like racket kind of one of the more modern list versions it's more modern list versions it's more modern list versions it's essentially touted as a language for essentially touted as a language for essentially touted as a language for building other languages and I building other languages and I building other languages and I understand the value of that for a tiny understand the value of that for a tiny understand the value of that for a tiny little project but the idea of that for little project but the idea of that for little project but the idea of that for one of these long-term supported by lots one of these long-term supported by lots one of these long-term supported by lots of people kind of horrifies me where all of people kind of horrifies me where all of people kind of horrifies me where all of those abstractions that you're like of those abstractions that you're like of those abstractions that you're like okay you can't touch this code till you okay you can't touch this code till you okay you can't touch this code till you educate yourself on all of these things educate yourself on all of these things educate yourself on all of these things that we've built on top of that and it that we've built on top of that and it that we've built on top of that and it was interesting to see how when Google was interesting to see how when Google was interesting to see how when Google made go a lot of the criticisms of that made go a lot of the criticisms of that made go a lot of the criticisms of that are it's like wow this is not a are it's like wow this is not a are it's like wow this is not a state-of-the-art language this language state-of-the-art language this language state-of-the-art language this language is just so simple and almost crude and is just so simple and almost crude and is just so simple and almost crude and you could see the programming language you could see the programming language you could see the programming language people just looking down at it but it people just looking down at it but it people just looking down at it but it does seem to be quite popular as does seem to be quite popular as does seem to be quite popular as basically saying this is the good things basically saying this is the good things basically saying this is the good things about C everybody can just jump right in about C everybody can just jump right in about C everybody can just jump right in and use it you don't need to restructure and use it you don't need to restructure and use it you don't need to restructure your brain to write good code in it so I your brain to write good code in it so I your brain to write good code in it so I I wish that I had more opportunity for I wish that I had more opportunity for I wish that I had more opportunity for doing some work in go uh rust is the doing some work in go uh rust is the doing some work in go uh rust is the other modern language that everybody other modern language that everybody other modern language that everybody talks about that I'm not fit to pass talks about that I'm not fit to pass talks about that I'm not fit to pass judgment on I've done you know a little judgment on I've done you know a little judgment on I've done you know a little bit beyond hello world I wrote Some Like bit beyond hello world I wrote Some Like bit beyond hello world I wrote Some Like video decompression work in Rust just as video decompression work in Rust just as video decompression work in Rust just as an exercise but that was a few years ago an exercise but that was a few years ago an exercise but that was a few years ago and I haven't really used it since you and I haven't really used it since you and I haven't really used it since you know the best programming language is know the best programming language is know the best programming language is the one that works generally that you're the one that works generally that you're the one that works generally that you're currently using because that's another

currently using because that's another currently using because that's another trap is in almost every case I've seen trap is in almost every case I've seen trap is in almost every case I've seen when people mixed languages on a project when people mixed languages on a project when people mixed languages on a project that's a mistake I would rather stay that's a mistake I would rather stay that's a mistake I would rather stay just in one language so that everybody just in one language so that everybody just in one language so that everybody can work across the entire thing and we can work across the entire thing and we can work across the entire thing and we have like at meta we have a lot of have like at meta we have a lot of have like at meta we have a lot of projects that use kind of react projects that use kind of react projects that use kind of react framework so you've got JavaScript here framework so you've got JavaScript here framework so you've got JavaScript here and then you have uh C++ for real work and then you have uh C++ for real work and then you have uh C++ for real work and then you may have Java interfacing and then you may have Java interfacing and then you may have Java interfacing with some other part of the Android with some other part of the Android with some other part of the Android system and those are all kind of system and those are all kind of system and those are all kind of horrible things and that was you know horrible things and that was you know horrible things and that was you know one thing that I I remember talking with one thing that I I remember talking with one thing that I I remember talking with uh with BOS at Facebook about it where uh with BOS at Facebook about it where uh with BOS at Facebook about it where like man I wish we could have just said like man I wish we could have just said like man I wish we could have just said we're only hiring C++ programmers I am we're only hiring C++ programmers I am we're only hiring C++ programmers I am and he just thought from the from the and he just thought from the from the and he just thought from the from the Facebook meta perspective well we just Facebook meta perspective well we just Facebook meta perspective well we just wouldn't be able to find enough I you wouldn't be able to find enough I you wouldn't be able to find enough I you know with the thousands of programmers know with the thousands of programmers know with the thousands of programmers they've got there it is not necessarily they've got there it is not necessarily they've got there it is not necessarily a Dying Breed but you can sure find a a Dying Breed but you can sure find a a Dying Breed but you can sure find a lot more Java JavaScript programmers and lot more Java JavaScript programmers and lot more Java JavaScript programmers and I I kind of mentioned that to Elon one I I kind of mentioned that to Elon one I I kind of mentioned that to Elon one time and he was kind of flabbergasted time and he was kind of flabbergasted time and he was kind of flabbergasted about that it's like well you just you about that it's like well you just you about that it's like well you just you go out and you find those programmers go out and you find those programmers go out and you find those programmers and you don't hire the other programmers and you don't hire the other programmers and you don't hire the other programmers that don't do the languages that you that don't do the languages that you that don't do the languages that you want to use but right now I guess yeah want to use but right now I guess yeah want to use but right now I guess yeah they're using JavaScript on a bunch of they're using JavaScript on a bunch of they're using JavaScript on a bunch of the the SpaceX work for the UI side of the the SpaceX work for the UI side of the the SpaceX work for the UI side of things when you go find UI programmers things when you go find UI programmers things when you go find UI programmers they're JavaScript programmers I wonder they're JavaScript programmers I wonder they're JavaScript programmers I wonder if that's because there's a lot of if that's because there's a lot of if that's because there's a lot of JavaScript programmers because I I do JavaScript programmers because I I do JavaScript programmers because I I do think that great programmers are think that great programmers are think that great programmers are rare that it's not you know if you just rare that it's not you know if you just rare that it's not you know if you just look at statistics of how many people look at statistics of how many people look at statistics of how many people are using different programming

are using different programming are using different programming languages that doesn't tell you the languages that doesn't tell you the languages that doesn't tell you the story of what the great programmers are story of what the great programmers are story of what the great programmers are using and so you have to really look at using and so you have to really look at using and so you have to really look at what you speaking to which is the what you speaking to which is the what you speaking to which is the fundamentals of a language what does it fundamentals of a language what does it fundamentals of a language what does it encourage how does it encourage you to encourage how does it encourage you to encourage how does it encourage you to think what kind of systems does it think what kind of systems does it think what kind of systems does it encourage you to build there is encourage you to build there is encourage you to build there is something about something about something about C++ that has elements of creativity but C++ that has elements of creativity but C++ that has elements of creativity but forces you to be an adult about your forces you to be an adult about your forces you to be an adult about your programming it expects you to be an programming it expects you to be an programming it expects you to be an adult does not force you to and adult does not force you to and adult does not force you to and so so it brings out people that are so so it brings out people that are so so it brings out people that are willing to be creative in terms of willing to be creative in terms of willing to be creative in terms of building large systems and coming up building large systems and coming up building large systems and coming up with interesting Solutions but at the with interesting Solutions but at the with interesting Solutions but at the same time have the sort of the good same time have the sort of the good same time have the sort of the good software engineering practices that uh software engineering practices that uh software engineering practices that uh amend themselves to Real World Systems amend themselves to Real World Systems amend themselves to Real World Systems let me ask you about this other language let me ask you about this other language let me ask you about this other language JavaScript so if we you know aliens JavaScript so if we you know aliens JavaScript so if we you know aliens visit in in thousands of years and visit in in thousands of years and visit in in thousands of years and humans are long gone something tells me humans are long gone something tells me humans are long gone something tells me that most of the systems they find will that most of the systems they find will that most of the systems they find will be running JavaScript I kind of think be running JavaScript I kind of think be running JavaScript I kind of think that if the simul if we're living the that if the simul if we're living the that if the simul if we're living the simulation it's ring it's written in simulation it's ring it's written in simulation it's ring it's written in JavaScript um you know for the longest JavaScript um you know for the longest JavaScript um you know for the longest time even time even time even still JavaScript didn't get any respect still JavaScript didn't get any respect still JavaScript didn't get any respect and yet it runs so much of the world and and yet it runs so much of the world and and yet it runs so much of the world and an increasing number of the world is it an increasing number of the world is it an increasing number of the world is it possible that all everything will be possible that all everything will be possible that all everything will be written in JavaScript one day so the written in JavaScript one day so the written in JavaScript one day so the engineering under JavaScript is really engineering under JavaScript is really engineering under JavaScript is really pretty phenomenal uh the the systems

pretty phenomenal uh the the systems pretty phenomenal uh the the systems that make JavaScript run as fast as it that make JavaScript run as fast as it that make JavaScript run as fast as it does right now are kind of Miracles of does right now are kind of Miracles of does right now are kind of Miracles of modern engineering in many ways it does modern engineering in many ways it does modern engineering in many ways it does feel like it is not an optimal language feel like it is not an optimal language feel like it is not an optimal language for all the things that it's being used for all the things that it's being used for all the things that it's being used for or an optimal distribution system to for or an optimal distribution system to for or an optimal distribution system to hu to build huge apps in something like hu to build huge apps in something like hu to build huge apps in something like this uh without type systems and so on this uh without type systems and so on this uh without type systems and so on um but I think for a lot of people it um but I think for a lot of people it um but I think for a lot of people it does reasonably the necessary things does reasonably the necessary things does reasonably the necessary things it's still a CF flavored language it's it's still a CF flavored language it's it's still a CF flavored language it's still a you know a braces and semicolon still a you know a braces and semicolon still a you know a braces and semicolon language uh it's not hard for people to language uh it's not hard for people to language uh it's not hard for people to be trained JavaScript and then be trained JavaScript and then be trained JavaScript and then understand the roots of where it came understand the roots of where it came understand the roots of where it came from I think garbage collection is from I think garbage collection is from I think garbage collection is unequivocably a good thing for most unequivocably a good thing for most unequivocably a good thing for most programs to be written in it's funny programs to be written in it's funny programs to be written in it's funny that I still just this morning I was on that I still just this morning I was on that I still just this morning I was on I was seeing a Twitter thread of a bunch I was seeing a Twitter thread of a bunch I was seeing a Twitter thread of a bunch of really senior Game Dev people arguing of really senior Game Dev people arguing of really senior Game Dev people arguing about the the virtues and costs of about the the virtues and costs of about the the virtues and costs of garbage collection and you will run into garbage collection and you will run into garbage collection and you will run into some people that are top-notch some people that are top-notch some people that are top-notch programmers that just say no this is programmers that just say no this is programmers that just say no this is literally not a good thing oh because it literally not a good thing oh because it literally not a good thing oh because it makes you lazy yes that it makes you not makes you lazy yes that it makes you not makes you lazy yes that it makes you not think about things and and I do disagree think about things and and I do disagree think about things and and I do disagree I think that the there is so much I think that the there is so much I think that the there is so much objective data on the the objective data on the the objective data on the the vulnerabilities that have happened in CN vulnerabilities that have happened in CN vulnerabilities that have happened in CN C++ programs sometimes written by the C++ programs sometimes written by the C++ programs sometimes written by the best programmers in the world it's like best programmers in the world it's like best programmers in the world it's like nobody is good enough to avoid ever nobody is good enough to avoid ever nobody is good enough to avoid ever shooting themselves in the foot with shooting themselves in the foot with shooting themselves in the foot with that you write enough C code you're that you write enough C code you're that you write enough C code you're going to shoot yourself in the foot and going to shoot yourself in the foot and going to shoot yourself in the foot and garbage collection is a very great thing garbage collection is a very great thing garbage collection is a very great thing for the vast majority of programs it's for the vast majority of programs it's for the vast majority of programs it's only when you get into the tightest of

only when you get into the tightest of only when you get into the tightest of real time things that you start saying real time things that you start saying real time things that you start saying it's like no the garbage collection has it's like no the garbage collection has it's like no the garbage collection has more costs than it has benefits for me more costs than it has benefits for me more costs than it has benefits for me there but that's not 99 plus% of all the there but that's not 99 plus% of all the there but that's not 99 plus% of all the software in the world so JavaScript is software in the world so JavaScript is software in the world so JavaScript is not terrible in those ways and um and so not terrible in those ways and um and so not terrible in those ways and um and so much of programming is not the language much of programming is not the language much of programming is not the language itself it's the infrastructure around itself it's the infrastructure around itself it's the infrastructure around every you know that surrounds it all the every you know that surrounds it all the every you know that surrounds it all the libraries that you can get and the libraries that you can get and the libraries that you can get and the different stuff that you can ways you different stuff that you can ways you different stuff that you can ways you can deploy it I the portability that it can deploy it I the portability that it can deploy it I the portability that it gives you and JavaScript is really gives you and JavaScript is really gives you and JavaScript is really strong on a lot of those things where strong on a lot of those things where strong on a lot of those things where for a long time and it still does if I for a long time and it still does if I for a long time and it still does if I look at it the the web stack about look at it the the web stack about look at it the the web stack about everything that has to go when you do everything that has to go when you do everything that has to go when you do something really trivial in JavaScript something really trivial in JavaScript something really trivial in JavaScript and it shows up on a web browser to kind and it shows up on a web browser to kind and it shows up on a web browser to kind of X-ray through that and see everything of X-ray through that and see everything of X-ray through that and see everything that has to happen for your one little that has to happen for your one little that has to happen for your one little JavaScript statement to turn into JavaScript statement to turn into JavaScript statement to turn into something visible in your web something visible in your web something visible in your web browser it's very very disquieting just browser it's very very disquieting just browser it's very very disquieting just the the depth of that stack and the fact the the depth of that stack and the fact the the depth of that stack and the fact that so few people can even comprehend that so few people can even comprehend that so few people can even comprehend all of the levels that are going on on all of the levels that are going on on all of the levels that are going on on there but it's again I have to caution there but it's again I have to caution there but it's again I have to caution myself to not be the in the good old myself to not be the in the good old myself to not be the in the good old days old man about it because clearly days old man about it because clearly days old man about it because clearly there's enormous value here the world there's enormous value here the world there's enormous value here the world does run on JavaScript to a pretty good does run on JavaScript to a pretty good does run on JavaScript to a pretty good approximation there and it's not falling approximation there and it's not falling approximation there and it's not falling apart there's a bunch of scary stuff apart there's a bunch of scary stuff apart there's a bunch of scary stuff where you look at console logs and you where you look at console logs and you where you look at console logs and you just see all of these bad things that just see all of these bad things that just see all of these bad things that are happening but it's still kind of are happening but it's still kind of are happening but it's still kind of limping along and nobody really

limping along and nobody really limping along and nobody really notices but so much of my systems design notices but so much of my systems design notices but so much of my systems design and systems analysis goes around you and systems analysis goes around you and systems analysis goes around you should understand what the speed of should understand what the speed of should understand what the speed of light is like what would be the best you light is like what would be the best you light is like what would be the best you could possibly do here and it sounds could possibly do here and it sounds could possibly do here and it sounds horrible but in a lot of cases you can horrible but in a lot of cases you can horrible but in a lot of cases you can be a thousand times off your speed of be a thousand times off your speed of be a thousand times off your speed of light uh velocity for something and it's light uh velocity for something and it's light uh velocity for something and it's still be okay and in fact it can even still be okay and in fact it can even still be okay and in fact it can even sometimes still be the optimal thing in sometimes still be the optimal thing in sometimes still be the optimal thing in a larger system standpoint where there's a larger system standpoint where there's a larger system standpoint where there's a lot of things that you don't want to a lot of things that you don't want to a lot of things that you don't want to have to parachute in someone like me to have to parachute in someone like me to have to parachute in someone like me to go in and say make this this web page go in and say make this this web page go in and say make this this web page Run a thousand times faster you know Run a thousand times faster you know Run a thousand times faster you know make this web app into a a hardcore make this web app into a a hardcore make this web app into a a hardcore native application that starts up in 37 native application that starts up in 37 native application that starts up in 37 milliseconds and everything responds in milliseconds and everything responds in milliseconds and everything responds in less than one frame latency that's just less than one frame latency that's just less than one frame latency that's just not necessary and if somebody wants to not necessary and if somebody wants to not necessary and if somebody wants to go pay me millions of dollars to do go pay me millions of dollars to do go pay me millions of dollars to do software like that when they can take software like that when they can take software like that when they can take somebody right out of a boot camp and somebody right out of a boot camp and somebody right out of a boot camp and say spin up an application for this uh say spin up an application for this uh say spin up an application for this uh often being efficient is not really the often being efficient is not really the often being efficient is not really the best metric it's like there's that best metric it's like there's that best metric it's like there's that applies in a lot of areas where it's applies in a lot of areas where it's applies in a lot of areas where it's kind of interesting how a lot of our kind of interesting how a lot of our kind of interesting how a lot of our appliances and everything are all built appliances and everything are all built appliances and everything are all built around Energy Efficiency sometimes at around Energy Efficiency sometimes at around Energy Efficiency sometimes at the expense of robustness in some other the expense of robustness in some other the expense of robustness in some other ways or higher costs in other ways where ways or higher costs in other ways where ways or higher costs in other ways where there's interesting things where energy there's interesting things where energy there's interesting things where energy or electricity could become much cheaper or electricity could become much cheaper or electricity could become much cheaper in a future world and that could change in a future world and that could change in a future world and that could change our engineering tradeoffs for the way we our engineering tradeoffs for the way we our engineering tradeoffs for the way we build certain things where you could build certain things where you could build certain things where you could throw away efficiency and actually get

throw away efficiency and actually get throw away efficiency and actually get more benefits that actually matter I more benefits that actually matter I more benefits that actually matter I mean that's one of my you know I one of mean that's one of my you know I one of mean that's one of my you know I one of the directions I was considering the directions I was considering the directions I was considering swerving into was uh nuclear energy when swerving into was uh nuclear energy when swerving into was uh nuclear energy when I was kind of like what do I want to do I was kind of like what do I want to do I was kind of like what do I want to do next it was either going to be I next it was either going to be I next it was either going to be I cost-effective nuclear fion or cost-effective nuclear fion or cost-effective nuclear fion or artificial general intelligence and one artificial general intelligence and one artificial general intelligence and one of the one of my pet ideas there is like of the one of my pet ideas there is like of the one of my pet ideas there is like you know people don't understand how you know people don't understand how you know people don't understand how cheap nuclear fuel is and there would be cheap nuclear fuel is and there would be cheap nuclear fuel is and there would be ways that uh you could be a quarter the ways that uh you could be a quarter the ways that uh you could be a quarter the efficiency or less but if it wound up efficiency or less but if it wound up efficiency or less but if it wound up making your plant 10 times cheaper that making your plant 10 times cheaper that making your plant 10 times cheaper that could be a radical innovation in could be a radical innovation in could be a radical innovation in something like that so there's like some something like that so there's like some something like that so there's like some of these thoughts around like direct of these thoughts around like direct of these thoughts around like direct fion energy conversion you know fion fion energy conversion you know fion fion energy conversion you know fion fragment conversion that you know maybe fragment conversion that you know maybe fragment conversion that you know maybe you build something that doesn't require you build something that doesn't require you build something that doesn't require all the steam turbines and everything all the steam turbines and everything all the steam turbines and everything even if it winds up being less efficient even if it winds up being less efficient even if it winds up being less efficient so that applies a lot in programming so that applies a lot in programming so that applies a lot in programming where there's always it's always good to where there's always it's always good to where there's always it's always good to know what you could do if you really sat know what you could do if you really sat know what you could do if you really sat down and took it uh took it far because down and took it uh took it far because down and took it uh took it far because sometimes there's discontinuities like sometimes there's discontinuities like sometimes there's discontinuities like around user reaction times there are around user reaction times there are around user reaction times there are some points where the difference between some points where the difference between some points where the difference between operating in 1 second and 750 operating in 1 second and 750 operating in 1 second and 750 milliseconds uh not that huge you'll see milliseconds uh not that huge you'll see milliseconds uh not that huge you'll see it in webpage statistics but most of the it in webpage statistics but most of the it in webpage statistics but most of the usability stuff not that great but if usability stuff not that great but if usability stuff not that great but if you get down to 50 milliseconds then all you get down to 50 milliseconds then all you get down to 50 milliseconds then all of a sudden this just feels amazing you of a sudden this just feels amazing you of a sudden this just feels amazing you know it's just like doing your bidding know it's just like doing your bidding know it's just like doing your bidding instantly rather than you're giving it a instantly rather than you're giving it a instantly rather than you're giving it a command twiddling your thumbs waiting command twiddling your thumbs waiting command twiddling your thumbs waiting for it to respond so sometimes it's for it to respond so sometimes it's for it to respond so sometimes it's important to really crunch hard to get important to really crunch hard to get important to really crunch hard to get over some threshold but there are there

over some threshold but there are there over some threshold but there are there are broad basins in the value metric for are broad basins in the value metric for are broad basins in the value metric for lots of work where it just doesn't pay lots of work where it just doesn't pay lots of work where it just doesn't pay to even go that extra mile and there are to even go that extra mile and there are to even go that extra mile and there are Craftsmen that you know they just don't Craftsmen that you know they just don't Craftsmen that you know they just don't want to buy that and more power to them want to buy that and more power to them want to buy that and more power to them you know if somebody just wants to say you know if somebody just wants to say you know if somebody just wants to say no I'm going to be I'm my pride is in my no I'm going to be I'm my pride is in my no I'm going to be I'm my pride is in my work I'm never going to do something work I'm never going to do something work I'm never going to do something that's not as good as I could possibly that's not as good as I could possibly that's not as good as I could possibly make it I respect that and sometimes I make it I respect that and sometimes I make it I respect that and sometimes I am that person but I try to focus more am that person but I try to focus more am that person but I try to focus more on the larger value picture and you do on the larger value picture and you do on the larger value picture and you do pick your battles and you deploy your pick your battles and you deploy your pick your battles and you deploy your resources in the play that's going to resources in the play that's going to resources in the play that's going to give you sort of the best user value in give you sort of the best user value in give you sort of the best user value in the end well if you look at the the end well if you look at the the end well if you look at the evolution of life on Earth as a kind of evolution of life on Earth as a kind of evolution of life on Earth as a kind of um programming um programming um programming effort it's uh it seems like efficiency effort it's uh it seems like efficiency effort it's uh it seems like efficiency isn't the thing that's being optimized isn't the thing that's being optimized isn't the thing that's being optimized for like natural selection is very for like natural selection is very for like natural selection is very inefficient but it it kind inefficient but it it kind inefficient but it it kind of uh adapts and through the process of of uh adapts and through the process of of uh adapts and through the process of adaptation is building more and more adaptation is building more and more adaptation is building more and more complex systems they're more and more complex systems they're more and more complex systems they're more and more intelligent the final result is kind of intelligent the final result is kind of intelligent the final result is kind of pretty interesting and so I think of pretty interesting and so I think of pretty interesting and so I think of JavaScript the same way it's like this JavaScript the same way it's like this JavaScript the same way it's like this giant mess that you know things giant mess that you know things giant mess that you know things naturally die off if they don't work and naturally die off if they don't work and naturally die off if they don't work and they if they if they become useful to they if they if they become useful to they if they if they become useful to people they kind of naturally live and people they kind of naturally live and people they kind of naturally live and then you build this community large then you build this community large then you build this community large community of people that are generating community of people that are generating community of people that are generating code and some code is sticky some is not code and some code is sticky some is not code and some code is sticky some is not and nobody knows the the inefficiencies and nobody knows the the inefficiencies and nobody knows the the inefficiencies or the efficiencies or the breaking or the efficiencies or the breaking or the efficiencies or the breaking points like how reliable this code is points like how reliable this code is points like how reliable this code is and you kind of just run it assume it

and you kind of just run it assume it and you kind of just run it assume it works and then get unpleasantly works and then get unpleasantly works and then get unpleasantly surprised and then that's very kind of surprised and then that's very kind of surprised and then that's very kind of The evolutionary process so that's a The evolutionary process so that's a The evolutionary process so that's a really good analogy and we can go a lot really good analogy and we can go a lot really good analogy and we can go a lot of places with that where in the of places with that where in the of places with that where in the earliest days of programming when you earliest days of programming when you earliest days of programming when you had finite you could count the bites had finite you could count the bites had finite you could count the bites that you had to work on this you had all that you had to work on this you had all that you had to work on this you had all the the kind of hackers playing code the the kind of hackers playing code the the kind of hackers playing code golf to be one less instruction than the golf to be one less instruction than the golf to be one less instruction than the other person's multiply routine to kind other person's multiply routine to kind other person's multiply routine to kind of get through and and it was so of get through and and it was so of get through and and it was so perfectly crafted it was a crystal piece perfectly crafted it was a crystal piece perfectly crafted it was a crystal piece of artwork when you had a program of artwork when you had a program of artwork when you had a program because there just were not that many because there just were not that many because there just were not that many you couldn't afford to be lazy in you couldn't afford to be lazy in you couldn't afford to be lazy in different ways and in many ways I see different ways and in many ways I see different ways and in many ways I see that as akin to the symbolic AI work that as akin to the symbolic AI work that as akin to the symbolic AI work where again if you did not have the where again if you did not have the where again if you did not have the resources to just say well we're going resources to just say well we're going resources to just say well we're going to do billions and billions of to do billions and billions of to do billions and billions of programmable weights here you have to programmable weights here you have to programmable weights here you have to turn it down into something that is turn it down into something that is turn it down into something that is symbolic and crafted like that but symbolic and crafted like that but symbolic and crafted like that but that's definitely not the way DNA and that's definitely not the way DNA and that's definitely not the way DNA and life and uh biological evolution and life and uh biological evolution and life and uh biological evolution and things work I you know on the one hand things work I you know on the one hand things work I you know on the one hand it's it's almost uming how little it's it's almost uming how little it's it's almost uming how little programming code is in our bodies you programming code is in our bodies you programming code is in our bodies you know we've got a couple billion base know we've got a couple billion base know we've got a couple billion base pairs and it's like this all fits on a pairs and it's like this all fits on a pairs and it's like this all fits on a thumb drive for years now and then our thumb drive for years now and then our thumb drive for years now and then our brains are even a smaller section of brains are even a smaller section of brains are even a smaller section of that you've got maybe 50 megabytes and that you've got maybe 50 megabytes and that you've got maybe 50 megabytes and this is not like Shannon limit perfectly this is not like Shannon limit perfectly this is not like Shannon limit perfectly uh information dense uh conveyances here uh information dense uh conveyances here uh information dense uh conveyances here it's like these are messy codes you know it's like these are messy codes you know it's like these are messy codes you know they're broken up into amino acids a lot they're broken up into amino acids a lot they're broken up into amino acids a lot of them don't do important things or of them don't do important things or of them don't do important things or they do things in very awkward ways but they do things in very awkward ways but they do things in very awkward ways but it is this process of just accumulation

it is this process of just accumulation it is this process of just accumulation on top of things and you need you need on top of things and you need you need on top of things and you need you need scale both you need scale for sort of scale both you need scale for sort of scale both you need scale for sort of the population for that to work out and the population for that to work out and the population for that to work out and in the early days in the the 50s and 60s in the early days in the the 50s and 60s in the early days in the the 50s and 60s the the kind of ancient era of computers the the kind of ancient era of computers the the kind of ancient era of computers where you could count when they said where you could count when they said where you could count when they said like when the internet started even in like when the internet started even in like when the internet started even in the 70s there were like 18 hosts or the 70s there were like 18 hosts or the 70s there were like 18 hosts or something on it it was this small finite something on it it was this small finite something on it it was this small finite number and you were still optimizing number and you were still optimizing number and you were still optimizing everything to be as good as you possibly everything to be as good as you possibly everything to be as good as you possibly could be but now it's billions and could be but now it's billions and could be but now it's billions and billions of devices and everything going billions of devices and everything going billions of devices and everything going on and you can have this very much on and you can have this very much on and you can have this very much Natural Evolution going on where lots of Natural Evolution going on where lots of Natural Evolution going on where lots of things are tried lots of things are things are tried lots of things are things are tried lots of things are blowing up Venture capitalists lose blowing up Venture capitalists lose blowing up Venture capitalists lose their money I when a startup invested in their money I when a startup invested in their money I when a startup invested in the wrong Tech stack and things the wrong Tech stack and things the wrong Tech stack and things completely failed or failed the scale completely failed or failed the scale completely failed or failed the scale but you know but good things do come out but you know but good things do come out but you know but good things do come out of it and it's interesting to see the of it and it's interesting to see the of it and it's interesting to see the the mimetic evolution of the way the mimetic evolution of the way the mimetic evolution of the way different things happen like mentioning different things happen like mentioning different things happen like mentioning hello world at the beginning it's funny hello world at the beginning it's funny hello world at the beginning it's funny how some little thing like that where how some little thing like that where how some little thing like that where everybody every programmer knows hello everybody every programmer knows hello everybody every programmer knows hello world now and that was a completely world now and that was a completely world now and that was a completely arbitrary sort of decision that just arbitrary sort of decision that just arbitrary sort of decision that just came out of the the dominance of Unix came out of the the dominance of Unix came out of the the dominance of Unix and c and uh early examples of things and c and uh early examples of things and c and uh early examples of things like that so millions of experiments are like that so millions of experiments are like that so millions of experiments are going on all the time but some things do going on all the time but some things do going on all the time but some things do kind of rise to the top and win the kind of rise to the top and win the kind of rise to the top and win the fitness War for whe whether it's mind fitness War for whe whether it's mind fitness War for whe whether it's mind space or programming techniques or space or programming techniques or space or programming techniques or anything like there's a site on stack anything like there's a site on stack anything like there's a site on stack exchange called code golf where people exchange called code golf where people exchange called code golf where people compete to write the shortest possible compete to write the shortest possible compete to write the shortest possible program for a particular task in all the

program for a particular task in all the program for a particular task in all the different kinds of languages and it's different kinds of languages and it's different kinds of languages and it's really interesting to really interesting to really interesting to see folks kind of um they're masters of see folks kind of um they're masters of see folks kind of um they're masters of their craft really play with the limits their craft really play with the limits their craft really play with the limits of programming languages it's really of programming languages it's really of programming languages it's really beautiful to see and across all the beautiful to see and across all the beautiful to see and across all the different programming languages you get different programming languages you get different programming languages you get to see some of these weird programming to see some of these weird programming to see some of these weird programming languages and mainstream ones python languages and mainstream ones python languages and mainstream ones python difference between Python 2 and 3 you difference between Python 2 and 3 you difference between Python 2 and 3 you get to see the difference between C and get to see the difference between C and get to see the difference between C and C++ and Java you get to see JavaScript C++ and Java you get to see JavaScript C++ and Java you get to see JavaScript all of that and it's it's kind of um inspiring to see how much depth of of um inspiring to see how much depth of possibility there is within programming possibility there is within programming possibility there is within programming languages that code golf kind of tasks languages that code golf kind of tasks languages that code golf kind of tasks reveal most of us if you do any kind of reveal most of us if you do any kind of reveal most of us if you do any kind of programming you kind of do boring kind programming you kind of do boring kind programming you kind of do boring kind of very vanilla type of code that's the of very vanilla type of code that's the of very vanilla type of code that's the way to build large systems but it's nice way to build large systems but it's nice way to build large systems but it's nice to see that the possibility of creative to see that the possibility of creative to see that the possibility of creative genius is still within those languages genius is still within those languages genius is still within those languages it's it's it's uh Laden with those languages so given uh Laden with those languages so given uh Laden with those languages so given that given that you are once again one that given that you are once again one that given that you are once again one of the greatest programmers ever uh what of the greatest programmers ever uh what of the greatest programmers ever uh what do you think makes a good programmer do you think makes a good programmer do you think makes a good programmer maybe a good modern programmer so I just maybe a good modern programmer so I just maybe a good modern programmer so I just gave a long rant SL lecture at meta uh gave a long rant SL lecture at meta uh gave a long rant SL lecture at meta uh to the TPM organization and my my to the TPM organization and my my to the TPM organization and my my biggest point was everything that we're biggest point was everything that we're biggest point was everything that we're doing really should flow from user value doing really should flow from user value doing really should flow from user value you know all the good things that we're you know all the good things that we're you know all the good things that we're doing it's like we're we're not doing it's like we're we're not doing it's like we're we're not technical people it's like you shouldn't

technical people it's like you shouldn't technical people it's like you shouldn't be taking Pride just in the specific be taking Pride just in the specific be taking Pride just in the specific thing like code golf is the sort of thing like code golf is the sort of thing like code golf is the sort of thing it's a fun puzzle game but that thing it's a fun puzzle game but that thing it's a fun puzzle game but that really should not be a major motivator really should not be a major motivator really should not be a major motivator for you it's like we're solving problems for you it's like we're solving problems for you it's like we're solving problems for people or we're providing for people or we're providing for people or we're providing entertainment to people we're doing entertainment to people we're doing entertainment to people we're doing something of value to people that's something of value to people that's something of value to people that's displacing something else in their life displacing something else in their life displacing something else in their life so we want to be providing a net value so we want to be providing a net value so we want to be providing a net value over what they could be doing uh but over what they could be doing uh but over what they could be doing uh but instead they're choosing to use our instead they're choosing to use our instead they're choosing to use our products and that's where I mean it products and that's where I mean it products and that's where I mean it sounds TR or corny but I fundamentally sounds TR or corny but I fundamentally sounds TR or corny but I fundamentally do think that's how you make the world a do think that's how you make the world a do think that's how you make the world a better place if you have given more better place if you have given more better place if you have given more value to people than it took you and value to people than it took you and value to people than it took you and your team to create then the world's a your team to create then the world's a your team to create then the world's a better place people have uh they've gone better place people have uh they've gone better place people have uh they've gone from something of lesser value chosen to from something of lesser value chosen to from something of lesser value chosen to use your product and their life feels use your product and their life feels use your product and their life feels better for that and if you've produced better for that and if you've produced better for that and if you've produced that economically that's that's a really that economically that's that's a really that economically that's that's a really good thing uh you know on the other hand good thing uh you know on the other hand good thing uh you know on the other hand if you spent ridiculous amounts of money if you spent ridiculous amounts of money if you spent ridiculous amounts of money you've just kind of shoveled a lot of you've just kind of shoveled a lot of you've just kind of shoveled a lot of cash into a wood chipper there and you cash into a wood chipper there and you cash into a wood chipper there and you should maybe you know not feel so good should maybe you know not feel so good should maybe you know not feel so good about what you're doing so being proud about what you're doing so being proud about what you're doing so being proud about like a specific architecture or a about like a specific architecture or a about like a specific architecture or a specific technology or a specific code specific technology or a specific code specific technology or a specific code sequence that you've done it's great to sequence that you've done it's great to sequence that you've done it's great to get a little smile like a tiny little get a little smile like a tiny little get a little smile like a tiny little dopamine hit for that but the the top dopamine hit for that but the the top dopamine hit for that but the the top level metric should be that you're level metric should be that you're level metric should be that you're building things of value now you can get building things of value now you can get building things of value now you can get into the argument about how you you know into the argument about how you you know into the argument about how you you know what is user value how do you actually what is user value how do you actually what is user value how do you actually quantify that and there can be big quantify that and there can be big quantify that and there can be big arguments about that but it's easy to be arguments about that but it's easy to be arguments about that but it's easy to be able to say okay this pissed off user able to say okay this pissed off user able to say okay this pissed off user there is not getting Val from what there is not getting Val from what there is not getting Val from what you're doing this user over there with

you're doing this user over there with you're doing this user over there with the big smile on their face I am the the big smile on their face I am the the big smile on their face I am the moment of delight when something moment of delight when something moment of delight when something happened there's a value that's happened happened there's a value that's happened happened there's a value that's happened there I mean if you you have to at least there I mean if you you have to at least there I mean if you you have to at least accept that there is a concept of user accept that there is a concept of user accept that there is a concept of user value even if you have trouble exactly value even if you have trouble exactly value even if you have trouble exactly quantifying it you can usually make quantifying it you can usually make quantifying it you can usually make relative arguments about it well this relative arguments about it well this relative arguments about it well this was better than this uh We've improved was better than this uh We've improved was better than this uh We've improved things so you know being a you know things so you know being a you know things so you know being a you know being a servant to the user is your job being a servant to the user is your job being a servant to the user is your job when you're de when you're a developer when you're de when you're a developer when you're de when you're a developer you want to be producing something that you want to be producing something that you want to be producing something that I you know other people are going to I you know other people are going to I you know other people are going to find valuable and if you are technically find valuable and if you are technically find valuable and if you are technically inclined then finding the right levers inclined then finding the right levers inclined then finding the right levers to be able to pull to be able to make a to be able to pull to be able to make a to be able to pull to be able to make a design that's going to produce the most design that's going to produce the most design that's going to produce the most value for the least amount of effort and value for the least amount of effort and value for the least amount of effort and it always has to be uh kind of divide it always has to be uh kind of divide it always has to be uh kind of divide there's a ratio there where you it's a there's a ratio there where you it's a there's a ratio there where you it's a problem at the big tech companies you problem at the big tech companies you problem at the big tech companies you know whether it's you know meta Google know whether it's you know meta Google know whether it's you know meta Google Apple Microsoft Amazon companies that Apple Microsoft Amazon companies that Apple Microsoft Amazon companies that have almost infinite money I I mean I have almost infinite money I I mean I have almost infinite money I I mean I know their CFO will complain that it's know their CFO will complain that it's know their CFO will complain that it's not infinite money but from most not infinite money but from most not infinite money but from most developer standpoints it really does developer standpoints it really does developer standpoints it really does feel like it and it's almost feel like it and it's almost feel like it and it's almost counterintuitive that if you're working counterintuitive that if you're working counterintuitive that if you're working hard as a developer on something there's hard as a developer on something there's hard as a developer on something there's always this thought if only I had more always this thought if only I had more always this thought if only I had more resources more people more RAM more resources more people more RAM more resources more people more RAM more megahertz I then my product will be megahertz I then my product will be megahertz I then my product will be better and that sense that at certain better and that sense that at certain better and that sense that at certain points it's certainly true that if you points it's certainly true that if you points it's certainly true that if you are really hamstrung by this removing an are really hamstrung by this removing an are really hamstrung by this removing an obstacle will will make a better product obstacle will will make a better product obstacle will will make a better product make more value but if you're not making make more value but if you're not making make more value but if you're not making your core design decisions in this

your core design decisions in this your core design decisions in this fiercely competitive uh way where you're fiercely competitive uh way where you're fiercely competitive uh way where you're saying feature a or feature B you can't saying feature a or feature B you can't saying feature a or feature B you can't just say let's do both uh because then just say let's do both uh because then just say let's do both uh because then you're not making a value judgment about you're not making a value judgment about you're not making a value judgment about them you're just saying well they both them you're just saying well they both them you're just saying well they both seem good I don't want to necessarily seem good I don't want to necessarily seem good I don't want to necessarily have to pick out which one is better or have to pick out which one is better or have to pick out which one is better or how much better and tell Team B that uh how much better and tell Team B that uh how much better and tell Team B that uh sorry we're not going to do this because sorry we're not going to do this because sorry we're not going to do this because a is more important but that um that a is more important but that um that a is more important but that um that notion of always having to really notion of always having to really notion of always having to really critically value what you're doing your critically value what you're doing your critically value what you're doing your time the resources you expend even the time the resources you expend even the time the resources you expend even the opportunity cost of doing something else opportunity cost of doing something else opportunity cost of doing something else that's you know super important well let that's you know super important well let that's you know super important well let me ask you about this the big debates me ask you about this the big debates me ask you about this the big debates that you're mentioning of how to measure that you're mentioning of how to measure that you're mentioning of how to measure value is it possible to measure it kind value is it possible to measure it kind value is it possible to measure it kind of um of um of um numerically uh or can you do the sort of numerically uh or can you do the sort of numerically uh or can you do the sort of Johnny the designer route of Johnny the designer route of Johnny the designer route of imagining sort of uh some somebody using imagining sort of uh some somebody using imagining sort of uh some somebody using a thing and imagining a smile on their a thing and imagining a smile on their a thing and imagining a smile on their face Imagining the experience of love face Imagining the experience of love face Imagining the experience of love and joy that you have when you use the and joy that you have when you use the and joy that you have when you use the thing that's from a design perspective thing that's from a design perspective thing that's from a design perspective or if you're building more like a low or if you're building more like a low or if you're building more like a low lower level thing for like Linux you lower level thing for like Linux you lower level thing for like Linux you imagine a developer that might come imagine a developer that might come imagine a developer that might come across this and use it and become uh across this and use it and become uh across this and use it and become uh happy and better off because of it so happy and better off because of it so happy and better off because of it so where do you land on those things is it where do you land on those things is it where do you land on those things is it measurable so I imagine like meta and measurable so I imagine like meta and measurable so I imagine like meta and Google will probably try to measure the Google will probably try to measure the Google will probably try to measure the thing they'll try to it's like you try thing they'll try to it's like you try thing they'll try to it's like you try to optimize engagement or something

to optimize engagement or something to optimize engagement or something let's measure engagement and then I let's measure engagement and then I let's measure engagement and then I think there is a kind of I mean I admire think there is a kind of I mean I admire think there is a kind of I mean I admire the designer ethic of like think of a the designer ethic of like think of a the designer ethic of like think of a future that's immeasurable and you try future that's immeasurable and you try future that's immeasurable and you try to make somebody in that future that's to make somebody in that future that's to make somebody in that future that's different from today happy so I do different from today happy so I do different from today happy so I do usually favor if you can get any kind of usually favor if you can get any kind of usually favor if you can get any kind of a a metric that's good by all means a a metric that's good by all means a a metric that's good by all means listen to the data but you can go too listen to the data but you can go too listen to the data but you can go too far there where we've had problems where far there where we've had problems where far there where we've had problems where it's like hey we had a performance it's like hey we had a performance it's like hey we had a performance regression because our fancy new regression because our fancy new regression because our fancy new Telemetry system is doing a bazillion Telemetry system is doing a bazillion Telemetry system is doing a bazillion file rights uh to kind of archive this file rights uh to kind of archive this file rights uh to kind of archive this stuff because we needed to collect stuff because we needed to collect stuff because we needed to collect information to determine if we were information to determine if we were information to determine if we were doing you know if our plans were good so doing you know if our plans were good so doing you know if our plans were good so when information is available you should when information is available you should when information is available you should never ignore it I mean from actual users never ignore it I mean from actual users never ignore it I mean from actual users using the thing human beings using the using the thing human beings using the using the thing human beings using the thing large number of human beings and thing large number of human beings and thing large number of human beings and you get to see sort of there's the zero you get to see sort of there's the zero you get to see sort of there's the zero to one problem of when you're doing to one problem of when you're doing to one problem of when you're doing something really new you do kind of have something really new you do kind of have something really new you do kind of have to make a guess but one of the points to make a guess but one of the points to make a guess but one of the points that I've been making at meta is we have that I've been making at meta is we have that I've been making at meta is we have more than enough users now that anything more than enough users now that anything more than enough users now that anything somebody wants to try in VR we have somebody wants to try in VR we have somebody wants to try in VR we have users that will be interested in that users that will be interested in that users that will be interested in that you do not get to make a completely you do not get to make a completely you do not get to make a completely Greenfield Blue Sky pitch and say I'm Greenfield Blue Sky pitch and say I'm Greenfield Blue Sky pitch and say I'm going to do this because I think it going to do this because I think it going to do this because I think it might be interesting I challenge might be interesting I challenge might be interesting I challenge everyone there are going to be people everyone there are going to be people everyone there are going to be people whether it's you know working in VR on whether it's you know working in VR on whether it's you know working in VR on your I like on your desktop replacement your I like on your desktop replacement your I like on your desktop replacement or communicating with people in or communicating with people in or communicating with people in different ways or playing the games different ways or playing the games different ways or playing the games there there are going to be probably

there there are going to be probably there there are going to be probably millions of people or at least in if you millions of people or at least in if you millions of people or at least in if you pick some tiny Niche that we're not in pick some tiny Niche that we're not in pick some tiny Niche that we're not in right now there's still going to be right now there's still going to be right now there's still going to be thousands of people out there that have thousands of people out there that have thousands of people out there that have the headsets that would be your target the headsets that would be your target the headsets that would be your target market and I tell people pay attention market and I tell people pay attention market and I tell people pay attention to them don't invent fictional users to them don't invent fictional users to them don't invent fictional users don't you know make an ALICE Bob Charlie don't you know make an ALICE Bob Charlie don't you know make an ALICE Bob Charlie uh that fits whatever Matrix of of uh that fits whatever Matrix of of uh that fits whatever Matrix of of tendencies that you want to break the tendencies that you want to break the tendencies that you want to break the market down to because it's a mistake to market down to because it's a mistake to market down to because it's a mistake to think about imaginary users when you've think about imaginary users when you've think about imaginary users when you've got real users that you could be working got real users that you could be working got real users that you could be working with but you know on the other hand with but you know on the other hand with but you know on the other hand there is there is value to having a kind there is there is value to having a kind there is there is value to having a kind of wholeness of vision for a product and of wholeness of vision for a product and of wholeness of vision for a product and I companies like meta have you know they I companies like meta have you know they I companies like meta have you know they understand the trade-offs where you can understand the trade-offs where you can understand the trade-offs where you can have a company like SpaceX or you know have a company like SpaceX or you know have a company like SpaceX or you know Apple in the the Steve Jobs era where Apple in the the Steve Jobs era where Apple in the the Steve Jobs era where you have a very powerful leading you have a very powerful leading you have a very powerful leading personality that I you know that can personality that I you know that can personality that I you know that can micromanage at a very low level and can micromanage at a very low level and can micromanage at a very low level and can say it's like no that handle needs to be say it's like no that handle needs to be say it's like no that handle needs to be different or that uh that icon needs to different or that uh that icon needs to different or that uh that icon needs to change the tint there and they clearly change the tint there and they clearly change the tint there and they clearly get a lot of value out of it they also get a lot of value out of it they also get a lot of value out of it they also burn through a lot of employees that burn through a lot of employees that burn through a lot of employees that have horror stories to tell about uh have horror stories to tell about uh have horror stories to tell about uh working there afterwards my position is working there afterwards my position is working there afterwards my position is that you're at your best when you've got that you're at your best when you've got that you're at your best when you've got a leader that is at their limit of what a leader that is at their limit of what a leader that is at their limit of what they can kind of comprehend of they can kind of comprehend of they can kind of comprehend of everything below them uh and they can everything below them uh and they can everything below them uh and they can have an informed opinion about have an informed opinion about have an informed opinion about everything that's going on and you take everything that's going on and you take everything that's going on and you take somebody it's You've Got to Believe that somebody it's You've Got to Believe that somebody it's You've Got to Believe that somebody that has 30 40 years of somebody that has 30 40 years of somebody that has 30 40 years of experience you would hope that they've experience you would hope that they've experience you would hope that they've got wisdom that the the just out of boot

got wisdom that the the just out of boot got wisdom that the the just out of boot camp person uh contributing doesn't have camp person uh contributing doesn't have camp person uh contributing doesn't have and that if they're like well that's and that if they're like well that's and that if they're like well that's wrong there you probably shouldn't do it wrong there you probably shouldn't do it wrong there you probably shouldn't do it that way or even just don't do it that that way or even just don't do it that that way or even just don't do it that way do it another way so there's value way do it another way so there's value way do it another way so there's value there but it can't go beyond a certain there but it can't go beyond a certain there but it can't go beyond a certain level I you I mean I have Steve Jobs level I you I mean I have Steve Jobs level I you I mean I have Steve Jobs stories of him saying things that are stories of him saying things that are stories of him saying things that are just wrong right in front of me about just wrong right in front of me about just wrong right in front of me about technical things because he was not technical things because he was not technical things because he was not operating at that level operating at that level operating at that level but when it does work and you do get but when it does work and you do get but when it does work and you do get that kind of passionate leader that's that kind of passionate leader that's that kind of passionate leader that's thinking about the entire product and thinking about the entire product and thinking about the entire product and just really deeply cares about not just really deeply cares about not just really deeply cares about not letting anything slip through the cracks letting anything slip through the cracks letting anything slip through the cracks I I think that's got a lot of value but I I think that's got a lot of value but I I think that's got a lot of value but the other side of that is the people the other side of that is the people the other side of that is the people saying that well we want to have these saying that well we want to have these saying that well we want to have these independent teams that are bubbling up independent teams that are bubbling up independent teams that are bubbling up the ideas because like it's it's almost the ideas because like it's it's almost the ideas because like it's it's almost it's anti- capitalist or anti-free it's anti- capitalist or anti-free it's anti- capitalist or anti-free Market to say it's like I want my grand Market to say it's like I want my grand Market to say it's like I want my grand you know my great leader to go ahead and you know my great leader to go ahead and you know my great leader to go ahead and dictate all these points there where dictate all these points there where dictate all these points there where clearly free markets bring up things clearly free markets bring up things clearly free markets bring up things that you know you don't expect like in that you know you don't expect like in that you know you don't expect like in VR we we saw a bunch of things like it VR we we saw a bunch of things like it VR we we saw a bunch of things like it didn't turn out at all the way the early didn't turn out at all the way the early didn't turn out at all the way the early people thought were going to be the key people thought were going to be the key people thought were going to be the key applications and things that you know applications and things that you know applications and things that you know would not have been approved by uh you would not have been approved by uh you would not have been approved by uh you know the the dark cabal making the know the the dark cabal making the know the the dark cabal making the decisions about what gets into the store decisions about what gets into the store decisions about what gets into the store turn out to some cases be extremely turn out to some cases be extremely turn out to some cases be extremely successful uh so yeah I definitely kind successful uh so yeah I definitely kind successful uh so yeah I definitely kind of wanted to be there was a point where of wanted to be there was a point where of wanted to be there was a point where I did make a pitch it's like hey make me I did make a pitch it's like hey make me I did make a pitch it's like hey make me VR dictator and I'll go in get done VR dictator and I'll go in get done VR dictator and I'll go in get done I am and that's just it's not in the I am and that's just it's not in the I am and that's just it's not in the culture at meta you know and they they culture at meta you know and they they culture at meta you know and they they understand the tradeoffs they I and understand the tradeoffs they I and understand the tradeoffs they I and that's just not the way that's not the that's just not the way that's not the that's just not the way that's not the company that they want the team that

company that they want the team that company that they want the team that they uh that they want to do yeah it's they uh that they want to do yeah it's they uh that they want to do yeah it's fascinating because VR and we'll talk fascinating because VR and we'll talk fascinating because VR and we'll talk about it more it's still it's still about it more it's still it's still about it more it's still it's still unclear to unclear to unclear to me in what way VR will change the world me in what way VR will change the world me in what way VR will change the world because it does seem clear that VR will because it does seem clear that VR will because it does seem clear that VR will somehow fundamentally transform this somehow fundamentally transform this somehow fundamentally transform this world and it's unclear to me how yeah world and it's unclear to me how yeah world and it's unclear to me how yeah yeah and it's let me know when you want yeah and it's let me know when you want yeah and it's let me know when you want to get into that to get into that to get into that well hold on a second so uh in the the well hold on a second so uh in the the well hold on a second so uh in the the stick to the the you being the best stick to the the you being the best stick to the the you being the best programmer ever okay in the early days programmer ever okay in the early days programmer ever okay in the early days when you didn't have when when you when you didn't have when when you when you didn't have when when you didn't have adult responsibilities of didn't have adult responsibilities of didn't have adult responsibilities of leading teams and all that kind of stuff leading teams and all that kind of stuff leading teams and all that kind of stuff and you can focus on just being a and you can focus on just being a and you can focus on just being a programmer what did the productive day programmer what did the productive day programmer what did the productive day in the life of John carac look like how in the life of John carac look like how in the life of John carac look like how many hours of the keyboard how much many hours of the keyboard how much many hours of the keyboard how much sleep what was the source of calories sleep what was the source of calories sleep what was the source of calories that fueled the brain uh what was it that fueled the brain uh what was it that fueled the brain uh what was it like what time did you wake up so I was like what time did you wake up so I was like what time did you wake up so I was able to be remarkably consistent about able to be remarkably consistent about able to be remarkably consistent about what was good working conditions for me what was good working conditions for me what was good working conditions for me for a very long time um I was never one for a very long time um I was never one for a very long time um I was never one of the programmers that I that would do of the programmers that I that would do of the programmers that I that would do all nighters going through work for 20 all nighters going through work for 20 all nighters going through work for 20 hours straight it's like my brain hours straight it's like my brain hours straight it's like my brain generally starts turning to Mush after generally starts turning to Mush after generally starts turning to Mush after 12 hours or so um but the hard work is 12 hours or so um but the hard work is 12 hours or so um but the hard work is really important and I would work for really important and I would work for really important and I would work for for decades I would work 60 hours a week for decades I would work 60 hours a week for decades I would work 60 hours a week I would work a 10hour day six days a I would work a 10hour day six days a I would work a 10hour day six days a week and try to be week and try to be week and try to be productive at that now my schedule productive at that now my schedule productive at that now my schedule shifted around a fair amount when I was shifted around a fair amount when I was shifted around a fair amount when I was young without any kids I any other young without any kids I any other young without any kids I any other responsibilities I was on one of those

responsibilities I was on one of those responsibilities I was on one of those cycling schedules where I'd kind of get cycling schedules where I'd kind of get cycling schedules where I'd kind of get in an hour later each day and roll in an hour later each day and roll in an hour later each day and roll around through the entire time and I'd around through the entire time and I'd around through the entire time and I'd wind up kind of pulling in at 2:00 or 3: wind up kind of pulling in at 2:00 or 3: wind up kind of pulling in at 2:00 or 3: in the afternoon sometimes and then in the afternoon sometimes and then in the afternoon sometimes and then working again past you know midnight or working again past you know midnight or working again past you know midnight or two in the morning and that was um when two in the morning and that was um when two in the morning and that was um when it was just me trying to make things it was just me trying to make things it was just me trying to make things happen um and I was usually isol off in happen um and I was usually isol off in happen um and I was usually isol off in my office people generally didn't bother my office people generally didn't bother my office people generally didn't bother me much at it and I could get a lot of me much at it and I could get a lot of me much at it and I could get a lot of programming work done that way I did programming work done that way I did programming work done that way I did settle into a more normal schedule when settle into a more normal schedule when settle into a more normal schedule when I was taking kids to school and things I was taking kids to school and things I was taking kids to school and things like that so kids were the forcing like that so kids were the forcing like that so kids were the forcing function that got you to wake up and function that got you to wake up and function that got you to wake up and same time it's not clear to me that same time it's not clear to me that same time it's not clear to me that there was a much of a difference in the there was a much of a difference in the there was a much of a difference in the productivity with I with that where I productivity with I with that where I productivity with I with that where I kind of feel if I just get up when I kind of feel if I just get up when I kind of feel if I just get up when I feel like it it's usually a little later feel like it it's usually a little later feel like it it's usually a little later each day but I just recently made made each day but I just recently made made each day but I just recently made made the focusing decision to try to push my the focusing decision to try to push my the focusing decision to try to push my schedule back a little bit earlier to schedule back a little bit earlier to schedule back a little bit earlier to getting up at 8:00 in the morning and getting up at 8:00 in the morning and getting up at 8:00 in the morning and trying to to shift things around like trying to to shift things around like trying to to shift things around like I'm I'm often doing experiments with I'm I'm often doing experiments with I'm I'm often doing experiments with myself about what should I be doing to myself about what should I be doing to myself about what should I be doing to to be more productive and one of the to be more productive and one of the to be more productive and one of the things that I did realize was happening things that I did realize was happening things that I did realize was happening in recent months where I would I would in recent months where I would I would in recent months where I would I would go for a walk or a run I I cover like go for a walk or a run I I cover like go for a walk or a run I I cover like four miles a day and and I would usually four miles a day and and I would usually four miles a day and and I would usually do that just as the sun's going down at do that just as the sun's going down at do that just as the sun's going down at here in Texas now and it's still really here in Texas now and it's still really here in Texas now and it's still really damn hot but I'd go out at 8:30 or damn hot but I'd go out at 8:30 or damn hot but I'd go out at 8:30 or something and cover the time there and something and cover the time there and something and cover the time there and then the showering and it was putting a then the showering and it was putting a then the showering and it was putting a hole in my day where I would have still hole in my day where I would have still hole in my day where I would have still a couple hours after that and sometimes

a couple hours after that and sometimes a couple hours after that and sometimes my best hours were at night when nobody my best hours were at night when nobody my best hours were at night when nobody else is around nobody's bothering me but else is around nobody's bothering me but else is around nobody's bothering me but that hole in the day was a problem so that hole in the day was a problem so that hole in the day was a problem so just a couple weeks ago I made the P the just a couple weeks ago I made the P the just a couple weeks ago I made the P the change to go ahead and say all right I'm change to go ahead and say all right I'm change to go ahead and say all right I'm going to get up a little earlier I'm going to get up a little earlier I'm going to get up a little earlier I'm going to do a walk or get out there going to do a walk or get out there going to do a walk or get out there first so I can have more uninterrupted first so I can have more uninterrupted first so I can have more uninterrupted time so I'm still playing with factors time so I'm still playing with factors time so I'm still playing with factors like this as I kind of optimize my my like this as I kind of optimize my my like this as I kind of optimize my my work efforts but it's always been you work efforts but it's always been you work efforts but it's always been you know it's it was 60 hours a week for a know it's it was 60 hours a week for a know it's it was 60 hours a week for a very long time to some degree I had a very long time to some degree I had a very long time to some degree I had a little thing in the back of my head little thing in the back of my head little thing in the back of my head where I was almost jealous of some of where I was almost jealous of some of where I was almost jealous of some of the programmers that would do these the programmers that would do these the programmers that would do these Marathon sessions and and I had like Marathon sessions and and I had like Marathon sessions and and I had like Dave Taylor one of the guys that he had Dave Taylor one of the guys that he had Dave Taylor one of the guys that he had he would be one of those people that he would be one of those people that he would be one of those people that would fall asleep under his desk would fall asleep under his desk would fall asleep under his desk sometimes and all the the kind of sometimes and all the the kind of sometimes and all the the kind of classic hacker tropes about things and a classic hacker tropes about things and a classic hacker tropes about things and a part of me was like always a little part of me was like always a little part of me was like always a little bothered that that wasn't me that I I bothered that that wasn't me that I I bothered that that wasn't me that I I wouldn't go program 20 hours straight wouldn't go program 20 hours straight wouldn't go program 20 hours straight straight because I'm just I'm falling straight because I'm just I'm falling straight because I'm just I'm falling apart and not being very effective after apart and not being very effective after apart and not being very effective after 12 hours I mean yeah 12-hour programming 12 hours I mean yeah 12-hour programming 12 hours I mean yeah 12-hour programming that's fine when you're doing that but that's fine when you're doing that but that's fine when you're doing that but it never you're not doing smart work it never you're not doing smart work it never you're not doing smart work much after at least I'm not but there's much after at least I'm not but there's much after at least I'm not but there's a range of people I mean that's a range of people I mean that's a range of people I mean that's something that a lot of people don't something that a lot of people don't something that a lot of people don't really get in their gut where there are really get in their gut where there are really get in their gut where there are people that work on four hours of sleep people that work on four hours of sleep people that work on four hours of sleep and are smart and can continue to do and are smart and can continue to do and are smart and can continue to do good work but then there's a lot of good work but then there's a lot of good work but then there's a lot of people that just fall apart so I do tell people that just fall apart so I do tell people that just fall apart so I do tell people that I always try to get eight people that I always try to get eight people that I always try to get eight hours of sleep it's not this you know hours of sleep it's not this you know hours of sleep it's not this you know push yourself harder get up earlier I push yourself harder get up earlier I push yourself harder get up earlier I just do worse work where uh you know just do worse work where uh you know just do worse work where uh you know there's you can work a 100 hours a week there's you can work a 100 hours a week there's you can work a 100 hours a week and still get eight hours of sleep if and still get eight hours of sleep if and still get eight hours of sleep if you just kind of prioritize things

you just kind of prioritize things you just kind of prioritize things correctly but I do believe in working correctly but I do believe in working correctly but I do believe in working hard working a lot I there was a comment hard working a lot I there was a comment hard working a lot I there was a comment that uh Game Dev made that that I know that uh Game Dev made that that I know that uh Game Dev made that that I know there's a backlash against really hard there's a backlash against really hard there's a backlash against really hard work in a lot of cases and I get into work in a lot of cases and I get into work in a lot of cases and I get into online arguments about this all the time online arguments about this all the time online arguments about this all the time but he was basically saying yeah 40 but he was basically saying yeah 40 but he was basically saying yeah 40 hours a week that's kind of a part job hours a week that's kind of a part job hours a week that's kind of a part job and if you are really in it you're doing and if you are really in it you're doing and if you are really in it you're doing what you think is important what you're what you think is important what you're what you think is important what you're passionate about working more gets more passionate about working more gets more passionate about working more gets more done and I it's just really not possible done and I it's just really not possible done and I it's just really not possible to argue with that if you've been around to argue with that if you've been around to argue with that if you've been around the people that that work with that the people that that work with that the people that that work with that level of intensity and just say it's level of intensity and just say it's level of intensity and just say it's like no they should just stop and we had like no they should just stop and we had like no they should just stop and we had I kind of came back around to that a I kind of came back around to that a I kind of came back around to that a couple years ago where I was using the couple years ago where I was using the couple years ago where I was using the fictional example of all right some fictional example of all right some fictional example of all right some people say they'll say with a straight people say they'll say with a straight people say they'll say with a straight face they think no you you are less face they think no you you are less face they think no you you are less productive if you work more than 40 productive if you work more than 40 productive if you work more than 40 hours a week and they're generally hours a week and they're generally hours a week and they're generally misinterpreting things where your your misinterpreting things where your your misinterpreting things where your your marginal productivity for an hour after marginal productivity for an hour after marginal productivity for an hour after eight hours is less than in one of your eight hours is less than in one of your eight hours is less than in one of your peak hours but you're not literally peak hours but you're not literally peak hours but you're not literally getting less done there is a point where getting less done there is a point where getting less done there is a point where you start breaking things and getting you start breaking things and getting you start breaking things and getting worse worse behavior and everything out worse worse behavior and everything out worse worse behavior and everything out of it where you're literally going of it where you're literally going of it where you're literally going backwards but it's not at 8 or 10 or 12 backwards but it's not at 8 or 10 or 12 backwards but it's not at 8 or 10 or 12 hours and the fictional example I would hours and the fictional example I would hours and the fictional example I would use was imagine there's an asteroid use was imagine there's an asteroid use was imagine there's an asteroid coming to impact you know to to crash coming to impact you know to to crash coming to impact you know to to crash into Earth destroy all of human life I into Earth destroy all of human life I into Earth destroy all of human life I do you want Elon Musk or the people do you want Elon Musk or the people do you want Elon Musk or the people working at SpaceX that are building the working at SpaceX that are building the working at SpaceX that are building the Interceptor that's going to uh to Interceptor that's going to uh to Interceptor that's going to uh to deflect the asteroid do you want them to

deflect the asteroid do you want them to deflect the asteroid do you want them to clock out at 5 because damn it they're clock out at 5 because damn it they're clock out at 5 because damn it they're just going to go do worse work if they just going to go do worse work if they just going to go do worse work if they work another couple hours and you know work another couple hours and you know work another couple hours and you know it seems absurd and that's a it seems absurd and that's a it seems absurd and that's a hypothetical though and everyone can hypothetical though and everyone can hypothetical though and everyone can dismiss that but then when Corona virus dismiss that but then when Corona virus dismiss that but then when Corona virus was hitting and you have all of these was hitting and you have all of these was hitting and you have all of these medical personnel that are clearly medical personnel that are clearly medical personnel that are clearly pushing themselves really really hard pushing themselves really really hard pushing themselves really really hard and I'd say it's like okay do you want and I'd say it's like okay do you want and I'd say it's like okay do you want all of these scientists working on all of these scientists working on all of these scientists working on treatments and vaccines and caring for treatments and vaccines and caring for treatments and vaccines and caring for all of these people are they really all of these people are they really all of these people are they really screwing everything up by working more screwing everything up by working more screwing everything up by working more than eight hours a day and of course than eight hours a day and of course than eight hours a day and of course people say I'm just an to say people say I'm just an to say people say I'm just an to say something like that but it's I you know something like that but it's I you know something like that but it's I you know it's the truth working longer gets more it's the truth working longer gets more it's the truth working longer gets more done well so that's kind of uh the layer done well so that's kind of uh the layer done well so that's kind of uh the layer one but I'd like to also say one but I'd like to also say one but I'd like to also say that at least I believe depending on the that at least I believe depending on the that at least I believe depending on the person depending on the T ask working person depending on the T ask working person depending on the T ask working more and harder will more and harder will more and harder will make you better for the for the next make you better for the for the next make you better for the for the next week in those peak hours so there's week in those peak hours so there's week in those peak hours so there's something about a deep dedication to a something about a deep dedication to a something about a deep dedication to a thing that kind of gets deep in you so thing that kind of gets deep in you so thing that kind of gets deep in you so it's the the hard work isn't just about it's the the hard work isn't just about it's the the hard work isn't just about the raw hours of productivity it's the the raw hours of productivity it's the the raw hours of productivity it's the it's the thing it does to you in the in it's the thing it does to you in the in it's the thing it does to you in the in the weeks and months after too you're the weeks and months after too you're the weeks and months after too you're tempering yourself in some ways and I tempering yourself in some ways and I tempering yourself in some ways and I think you know it's like jro Dreams of think you know it's like jro Dreams of think you know it's like jro Dreams of Sushi if you really dedicate yourself Sushi if you really dedicate yourself Sushi if you really dedicate yourself completely to making the sushi like to completely to making the sushi like to completely to making the sushi like to really putting in the long hours day really putting in the long hours day really putting in the long hours day after day after day um you become a true

after day after day um you become a true after day after day um you become a true Craftsman of the thing you're doing now Craftsman of the thing you're doing now Craftsman of the thing you're doing now there's of course discussions about are there's of course discussions about are there's of course discussions about are you sacrificing a lot of personal you sacrificing a lot of personal you sacrificing a lot of personal relationships are you sacrificing a lot relationships are you sacrificing a lot relationships are you sacrificing a lot of other possible things you could do of other possible things you could do of other possible things you could do with that time but if you're talking with that time but if you're talking with that time but if you're talking about about about purely being a um a master or a purely being a um a master or a purely being a um a master or a Craftsman of your art that more hours Craftsman of your art that more hours Craftsman of your art that more hours isn't just about doing more it's about isn't just about doing more it's about isn't just about doing more it's about becoming better at the thing you're becoming better at the thing you're becoming better at the thing you're doing yeah and I don't gainsay anybody doing yeah and I don't gainsay anybody doing yeah and I don't gainsay anybody that wants to work the minimum amount that wants to work the minimum amount that wants to work the minimum amount they've got other priorities in their they've got other priorities in their they've got other priorities in their life my only argument that I'm making life my only argument that I'm making life my only argument that I'm making it's not that everybody should work hard it's not that everybody should work hard it's not that everybody should work hard it's that if you want to accomplish it's that if you want to accomplish it's that if you want to accomplish something working longer and harder is something working longer and harder is something working longer and harder is the path to getting it accomplished well the path to getting it accomplished well the path to getting it accomplished well let me ask you about this then uh the let me ask you about this then uh the let me ask you about this then uh the the mythical work life the mythical work life the mythical work life balance is for an engineer it seems like balance is for an engineer it seems like balance is for an engineer it seems like that's one of the professions in for for that's one of the professions in for for that's one of the professions in for for programmer where working hard does lead programmer where working hard does lead programmer where working hard does lead to Greater productivity and it um but it to Greater productivity and it um but it to Greater productivity and it um but it also raises the question of um sort of also raises the question of um sort of also raises the question of um sort of personal relationships and all that kind personal relationships and all that kind personal relationships and all that kind of stuff family and um how are you able of stuff family and um how are you able of stuff family and um how are you able to find work life balance is there to find work life balance is there to find work life balance is there advice you can give maybe even outside advice you can give maybe even outside advice you can give maybe even outside yourself have you been able to arrive at yourself have you been able to arrive at yourself have you been able to arrive at any wisdom on this part in your years of any wisdom on this part in your years of any wisdom on this part in your years of life I do think that there's a wide life I do think that there's a wide life I do think that there's a wide range of people where different people range of people where different people range of people where different people have different needs it's not a one-size have different needs it's not a one-size have different needs it's not a one-size fits-all I am certainly what works for fits-all I am certainly what works for fits-all I am certainly what works for me I I can tell enough that I'm you know

me I I can tell enough that I'm you know me I I can tell enough that I'm you know I'm different than a typical average I'm different than a typical average I'm different than a typical average person in the way things impact me the person in the way things impact me the person in the way things impact me the you know the things that I want to do uh you know the things that I want to do uh you know the things that I want to do uh my goals are different and sort of the my goals are different and sort of the my goals are different and sort of the the levers to impact things are the levers to impact things are the levers to impact things are different where you know I have different where you know I have different where you know I have literally never felt burnout and I know literally never felt burnout and I know literally never felt burnout and I know there's lots of brilliant smart people there's lots of brilliant smart people there's lots of brilliant smart people that that do World leading work that get that that do World leading work that get that that do World leading work that get burned out and it's never hit me uh you burned out and it's never hit me uh you burned out and it's never hit me uh you know I've never been at a point where know I've never been at a point where know I've never been at a point where I'm like um I just don't care about this I'm like um I just don't care about this I'm like um I just don't care about this I don't want to do this anymore but I've I don't want to do this anymore but I've I don't want to do this anymore but I've always had the flexibility to work on always had the flexibility to work on always had the flexibility to work on lots of interesting things you know I lots of interesting things you know I lots of interesting things you know I can always just turn my gaze to can always just turn my gaze to can always just turn my gaze to something else and have a great time something else and have a great time something else and have a great time working on that and so much of that and working on that and so much of that and working on that and so much of that and so much of the ability to actually work so much of the ability to actually work so much of the ability to actually work hard is the ability to have multiple hard is the ability to have multiple hard is the ability to have multiple things to choose from and to use use things to choose from and to use use things to choose from and to use use your time on the most appropriate thing your time on the most appropriate thing your time on the most appropriate thing like there are there are time periods like there are there are time periods like there are there are time periods where I am it's the best time for me to where I am it's the best time for me to where I am it's the best time for me to read a new research paper that I need to read a new research paper that I need to read a new research paper that I need to really be thinking you know hard about really be thinking you know hard about really be thinking you know hard about it then there's a time that maybe I it then there's a time that maybe I it then there's a time that maybe I should just scan and organize my old should just scan and organize my old should just scan and organize my old notes because my you know I'm just not notes because my you know I'm just not notes because my you know I'm just not on top of things then there's the time on top of things then there's the time on top of things then there's the time that all right let's go you know bang that all right let's go you know bang that all right let's go you know bang out a few hundred lines of code for out a few hundred lines of code for out a few hundred lines of code for something so switching between them has something so switching between them has something so switching between them has been you know real valuable been you know real valuable been you know real valuable so you always have kind of joy in your so you always have kind of joy in your so you always have kind of joy in your heart for all the things you're doing heart for all the things you're doing heart for all the things you're doing and that that is a kind of work life and that that is a kind of work life and that that is a kind of work life balance as a first sort of Step yeah I balance as a first sort of Step yeah I balance as a first sort of Step yeah I so you're always happy I do I yeah yeah so you're always happy I do I yeah yeah so you're always happy I do I yeah yeah I mean it's like I a lot of people would I mean it's like I a lot of people would I mean it's like I a lot of people would say that often I look like kind of a say that often I look like kind of a say that often I look like kind of a grim person you know with just sitting grim person you know with just sitting grim person you know with just sitting there with a a neutral expression or

there with a a neutral expression or there with a a neutral expression or even like knitted brows and a frown on even like knitted brows and a frown on even like knitted brows and a frown on my face as I'm staring at something my face as I'm staring at something my face as I'm staring at something that's what happiness looks like for you that's what happiness looks like for you that's what happiness looks like for you yeah it's it's kind of true where that yeah it's it's kind of true where that yeah it's it's kind of true where that that it's like okay I'm pushing through that it's like okay I'm pushing through that it's like okay I'm pushing through this I'm making progress here I am you this I'm making progress here I am you this I'm making progress here I am you know I know that doesn't work for know I know that doesn't work for know I know that doesn't work for everyone I know it doesn't work for most everyone I know it doesn't work for most everyone I know it doesn't work for most people I am but what I am always trying people I am but what I am always trying people I am but what I am always trying to do in those cases is I don't want to to do in those cases is I don't want to to do in those cases is I don't want to let somebody that might be a person like let somebody that might be a person like let somebody that might be a person like that be told by someone else that no that be told by someone else that no that be told by someone else that no don't try don't even try that out as an don't try don't even try that out as an don't try don't even try that out as an option where I you know work life Val option where I you know work life Val option where I you know work life Val balance versus kind of your life's work balance versus kind of your life's work balance versus kind of your life's work where there's a small subset of the where there's a small subset of the where there's a small subset of the people that can be very happy being people that can be very happy being people that can be very happy being obsessive about things and you know you obsessive about things and you know you obsessive about things and you know you know Obsession can often get things done know Obsession can often get things done know Obsession can often get things done that just practical prudent pedestrian that just practical prudent pedestrian that just practical prudent pedestrian work won't or at least won't for a very work won't or at least won't for a very work won't or at least won't for a very long time there's Legends of uh your long time there's Legends of uh your long time there's Legends of uh your nutritional intake uh in the early days nutritional intake uh in the early days nutritional intake uh in the early days uh what can you say about sort of as a uh what can you say about sort of as a uh what can you say about sort of as a you know being a programmer as a kind of you know being a programmer as a kind of you know being a programmer as a kind of athlete so what what was uh the athlete so what what was uh the athlete so what what was uh the nutrition that fuels so I have never nutrition that fuels so I have never nutrition that fuels so I have never been that great on I on really paying been that great on I on really paying been that great on I on really paying attention to it where attention to it where attention to it where I'm good enough that I I don't eat a lot I'm good enough that I I don't eat a lot I'm good enough that I I don't eat a lot you know I've never been like a big you know I've never been like a big you know I've never been like a big heavy guy but uh it was interesting heavy guy but uh it was interesting heavy guy but uh it was interesting where one of the things that I can where one of the things that I can where one of the things that I can remember being an unhappy teenager not remember being an unhappy teenager not remember being an unhappy teenager not having enough money and like one of the having enough money and like one of the having enough money and like one of the things that bothered me about not having things that bothered me about not having things that bothered me about not having enough money is I couldn't buy pizza enough money is I couldn't buy pizza enough money is I couldn't buy pizza whenever I wanted to so I got rich and whenever I wanted to so I got rich and whenever I wanted to so I got rich and then I bought a whole lot of pizza

then I bought a whole lot of pizza then I bought a whole lot of pizza defining like that's what being rich defining like that's what being rich defining like that's what being rich felt like a lot the little things like I felt like a lot the little things like I felt like a lot the little things like I could buy all the pizza and comic books could buy all the pizza and comic books could buy all the pizza and comic books and video games that uh that I wanted to and video games that uh that I wanted to and video games that uh that I wanted to and it really didn't take that much but and it really didn't take that much but and it really didn't take that much but uh the pizza was one of those things and uh the pizza was one of those things and uh the pizza was one of those things and it's absolutely true that for a long it's absolutely true that for a long it's absolutely true that for a long time it did software I had a pizza time it did software I had a pizza time it did software I had a pizza delivered every single day you know the delivered every single day you know the delivered every single day you know the delivery guy you knew me my name and I delivery guy you knew me my name and I delivery guy you knew me my name and I didn't find out until years later that didn't find out until years later that didn't find out until years later that apparently I was such a good customer apparently I was such a good customer apparently I was such a good customer that they just never raised the price on that they just never raised the price on that they just never raised the price on me and I was using this six-year-old me and I was using this six-year-old me and I was using this six-year-old price for the pizz that they were still price for the pizz that they were still price for the pizz that they were still kind of sending my away every day so you kind of sending my away every day so you kind of sending my away every day so you were doing um eating once a day or or were doing um eating once a day or or were doing um eating once a day or or were you uh it would be spread out you were you uh it would be spread out you were you uh it would be spread out you know you have a few pieces of pizza you know you have a few pieces of pizza you know you have a few pieces of pizza you have some more later on and i' maybe have some more later on and i' maybe have some more later on and i' maybe have something at home I it was one of have something at home I it was one of have something at home I it was one of the nice things that Facebook meta is the nice things that Facebook meta is the nice things that Facebook meta is they do they feed you quite well you get they do they feed you quite well you get they do they feed you quite well you get a different I guess now it's door Dash a different I guess now it's door Dash a different I guess now it's door Dash sorts of things delivered but uh they sorts of things delivered but uh they sorts of things delivered but uh they take care of making sure that everybody take care of making sure that everybody take care of making sure that everybody does get well fed and I probably had does get well fed and I probably had does get well fed and I probably had better food th those six years that I better food th those six years that I better food th those six years that I was working in the meta office there was working in the meta office there was working in the meta office there than I used to before but I've it's than I used to before but I've it's than I used to before but I've it's worked out okay for me my health has worked out okay for me my health has worked out okay for me my health has always been good I I get a a pretty good always been good I I get a a pretty good always been good I I get a a pretty good amount of exercise and and I don't eat amount of exercise and and I don't eat amount of exercise and and I don't eat to excess and I avoid a lot of other to excess and I avoid a lot of other to excess and I avoid a lot of other kind of not so good for you things so kind of not so good for you things so kind of not so good for you things so I'm still doing quite well at my age did I'm still doing quite well at my age did I'm still doing quite well at my age did you have you have you have um a kind of I don't know spiritual um a kind of I don't know spiritual um a kind of I don't know spiritual experience with food or coffee or any of experience with food or coffee or any of experience with food or coffee or any of that kind of stuff I mean you know the that kind of stuff I mean you know the that kind of stuff I mean you know the programming experience you know with

programming experience you know with programming experience you know with music and or or like I listen to Brown music and or or like I listen to Brown music and or or like I listen to Brown noise in a program or like creating an noise in a program or like creating an noise in a program or like creating an environment and the things you take into environment and the things you take into environment and the things you take into your body just everything you construct your body just everything you construct your body just everything you construct can become a kind of ritual that can become a kind of ritual that can become a kind of ritual that empowers the whole process of the empowers the whole process of the empowers the whole process of the programing did you have that programing did you have that programing did you have that relationship with pizza or um it would relationship with pizza or um it would relationship with pizza or um it would really be with Diet Coke I mean there really be with Diet Coke I mean there really be with Diet Coke I mean there still is that sense of you know drop the still is that sense of you know drop the still is that sense of you know drop the can down crack open the can of Diet Coke can down crack open the can of Diet Coke can down crack open the can of Diet Coke all right now I'm mean business we're all right now I'm mean business we're all right now I'm mean business we're getting to work here still to this day getting to work here still to this day getting to work here still to this day yeah is Diet Coke is still part yeah yeah is Diet Coke is still part yeah yeah is Diet Coke is still part yeah probably eight or nine a day nice okay probably eight or nine a day nice okay probably eight or nine a day nice okay uh what about your setup how many uh what about your setup how many uh what about your setup how many screens what kind of keyboard is there screens what kind of keyboard is there screens what kind of keyboard is there something interesting what kind of I IDE something interesting what kind of I IDE something interesting what kind of I IDE emac Vim or something modern uh Linux emac Vim or something modern uh Linux emac Vim or something modern uh Linux what operating system laptop or any any what operating system laptop or any any what operating system laptop or any any interesting thing that brings you Joy so interesting thing that brings you Joy so interesting thing that brings you Joy so I kind of migrated cultures where early I kind of migrated cultures where early I kind of migrated cultures where early on through all of gamedev there was sort on through all of gamedev there was sort on through all of gamedev there was sort of one culture there which was really of one culture there which was really of one culture there which was really quite distinct from the more uh the quite distinct from the more uh the quite distinct from the more uh the Silicon Valley venture you know uh Silicon Valley venture you know uh Silicon Valley venture you know uh culture for things it's they're culture for things it's they're culture for things it's they're different groups and they have pretty different groups and they have pretty different groups and they have pretty different mores and the way they think different mores and the way they think different mores and the way they think about things where and I still do think about things where and I still do think about things where and I still do think a lot of the big compan can learn uh can a lot of the big compan can learn uh can a lot of the big compan can learn uh can learn things from the hardcore game learn things from the hardcore game learn things from the hardcore game development side of things where it development side of things where it development side of things where it still boggles my mind how I how hostile still boggles my mind how I how hostile still boggles my mind how I how hostile to debuggers and idees that so much of to debuggers and idees that so much of to debuggers and idees that so much of the the kind of big money get billions the the kind of big money get billions the the kind of big money get billions of dollars Silicon Valley venture-backed of dollars Silicon Valley venture-backed of dollars Silicon Valley venture-backed funds are oh that's interesting sorry so funds are oh that's interesting sorry so funds are oh that's interesting sorry so you're saying like like uh big companies you're saying like like uh big companies you're saying like like uh big companies like Google and meta are hostile to they

like Google and meta are hostile to they like Google and meta are hostile to they are not big on debuggers and idees like are not big on debuggers and idees like are not big on debuggers and idees like so much of it is like emac Bim for so much of it is like emac Bim for so much of it is like emac Bim for things and we just assume that debuggers things and we just assume that debuggers things and we just assume that debuggers don't work most of the time for the don't work most of the time for the don't work most of the time for the systems and a lot of this comes from a systems and a lot of this comes from a systems and a lot of this comes from a sort of Linux bias on a lot of things sort of Linux bias on a lot of things sort of Linux bias on a lot of things where I did come up through the the where I did come up through the the where I did come up through the the personal computers and then the Doss and personal computers and then the Doss and personal computers and then the Doss and then I am you windows and and it was then I am you windows and and it was then I am you windows and and it was Borland tools and then visual studio and Borland tools and then visual studio and Borland tools and then visual studio and do you appreciate de buggers very much do you appreciate de buggers very much do you appreciate de buggers very much so I mean a debugger is how you get a so I mean a debugger is how you get a so I mean a debugger is how you get a view into a system that's too view into a system that's too view into a system that's too complicated to understand I mean anybody complicated to understand I mean anybody complicated to understand I mean anybody that thinks just read the code and think that thinks just read the code and think that thinks just read the code and think about it that's an insane statement in about it that's an insane statement in about it that's an insane statement in the you can't even read all the code on the you can't even read all the code on the you can't even read all the code on a big system you have to do experiments a big system you have to do experiments a big system you have to do experiments on the system and doing that by adding on the system and doing that by adding on the system and doing that by adding log statements recompiling and rerunning log statements recompiling and rerunning log statements recompiling and rerunning it uh is an incredibly inefficient way it uh is an incredibly inefficient way it uh is an incredibly inefficient way of doing it I mean yes you can always of doing it I mean yes you can always of doing it I mean yes you can always get things done even if you're working get things done even if you're working get things done even if you're working with stone knives and you know and bare with stone knives and you know and bare with stone knives and you know and bare skins that's that is the mark of a good skins that's that is the mark of a good skins that's that is the mark of a good programmer is that given any tools you programmer is that given any tools you programmer is that given any tools you will figure out a way to get it done but will figure out a way to get it done but will figure out a way to get it done but it's amazing what you can do with it's amazing what you can do with it's amazing what you can do with sometimes much much better tools where sometimes much much better tools where sometimes much much better tools where instead of just going through this instead of just going through this instead of just going through this iterative uh compile run debug cycle you iterative uh compile run debug cycle you iterative uh compile run debug cycle you have the you have the old list direction have the you have the old list direction have the you have the old list direction of like you've got a repple and you're of like you've got a repple and you're of like you've got a repple and you're working interactively and doing amazing working interactively and doing amazing working interactively and doing amazing things there but in many cases a things there but in many cases a things there but in many cases a debugger as a very powerful user debugger as a very powerful user debugger as a very powerful user interface that can stop examine all the interface that can stop examine all the interface that can stop examine all the different things in your program set all different things in your program set all different things in your program set all these different break points and of these different break points and of these different break points and of course you can do that with GDB or course you can do that with GDB or course you can do that with GDB or whatever there but this is one of the

whatever there but this is one of the whatever there but this is one of the user interface fundamental principles user interface fundamental principles user interface fundamental principles where when something is complicated to where when something is complicated to where when something is complicated to do do do you won't use it very often there's you won't use it very often there's you won't use it very often there's people that will break out GDB when people that will break out GDB when people that will break out GDB when they're at their wits end and they just they're at their wits end and they just they're at their wits end and they just have beat their head against a problem have beat their head against a problem have beat their head against a problem for so long but for somebody that kind for so long but for somebody that kind for so long but for somebody that kind of grew up in Game Dev it's like they of grew up in Game Dev it's like they of grew up in Game Dev it's like they were running it in the debugger anyways were running it in the debugger anyways were running it in the debugger anyways before they even knew there was a before they even knew there was a before they even knew there was a problem and you would just stop and see problem and you would just stop and see problem and you would just stop and see you know what was happening and you know what was happening and you know what was happening and sometimes you could fix things even sometimes you could fix things even sometimes you could fix things even before you you know even before you did before you you know even before you did before you you know even before you did one compile cycle you could be in the one compile cycle you could be in the one compile cycle you could be in the debugger and You' say well I'm just debugger and You' say well I'm just debugger and You' say well I'm just going to change this right here and yep going to change this right here and yep going to change this right here and yep that did the job and fix it and go on that did the job and fix it and go on that did the job and fix it and go on and for people who don't know GDB is a and for people who don't know GDB is a and for people who don't know GDB is a sort of popular I guess Linux sort of popular I guess Linux sort of popular I guess Linux debugger uh primarily for C+ plus they debugger uh primarily for C+ plus they debugger uh primarily for C+ plus they they handle most of the languages but they handle most of the languages but they handle most of the languages but it's you know it's based on c as the the it's you know it's based on c as the the it's you know it's based on c as the the original kind of Unix Heritage but and original kind of Unix Heritage but and original kind of Unix Heritage but and it's kind of like command line it's not it's kind of like command line it's not it's kind of like command line it's not user friendly it's not it doesn't allow user friendly it's not it doesn't allow user friendly it's not it doesn't allow for clean visualizations and you're for clean visualizations and you're for clean visualizations and you're you're exactly right so you're using you're exactly right so you're using you're exactly right so you're using this kind of debugger usually when this kind of debugger usually when this kind of debugger usually when you're at wi's end and there's a problem you're at wi's end and there's a problem you're at wi's end and there's a problem that you can't figure out why by just that you can't figure out why by just that you can't figure out why by just looking at the codes you have to find it looking at the codes you have to find it looking at the codes you have to find it that's how I guess normal programmers that's how I guess normal programmers that's how I guess normal programmers use it but you're saying there should be use it but you're saying there should be use it but you're saying there should be tools that kind of visualize and help tools that kind of visualize and help tools that kind of visualize and help you as part of the programming process you as part of the programming process you as part of the programming process just a normal programming process to to just a normal programming process to to just a normal programming process to to understand the code deeper yeah when I'm understand the code deeper yeah when I'm understand the code deeper yeah when I'm working on like my cc++ code I'm always working on like my cc++ code I'm always working on like my cc++ code I'm always running it from the debugger you know running it from the debugger you know running it from the debugger you know just I type in the code I I run it many just I type in the code I I run it many just I type in the code I I run it many times the first thing I do after writing times the first thing I do after writing times the first thing I do after writing code is set a breakpoint and step

code is set a breakpoint and step code is set a breakpoint and step through the function now other people through the function now other people through the function now other people will say it's like oh I do that in my will say it's like oh I do that in my will say it's like oh I do that in my head well your head is a faulty head well your head is a faulty head well your head is a faulty interpreter of all those things there interpreter of all those things there interpreter of all those things there and I've written brand new code I want and I've written brand new code I want and I've written brand new code I want to step in there and I'm going to single to step in there and I'm going to single to step in there and I'm going to single step through that examine lots of things step through that examine lots of things step through that examine lots of things and see if it's actually doing what I and see if it's actually doing what I and see if it's actually doing what I expected it to it it is a kind of expected it to it it is a kind of expected it to it it is a kind of companion the debugger like it you're companion the debugger like it you're companion the debugger like it you're you're now coding in an interactive way you're now coding in an interactive way you're now coding in an interactive way with another being uh the debugger is a with another being uh the debugger is a with another being uh the debugger is a kind of dumb being but it's a reliable kind of dumb being but it's a reliable kind of dumb being but it's a reliable being that is an interesting question of being that is an interesting question of being that is an interesting question of what role does AI play in that kind of what role does AI play in that kind of what role does AI play in that kind of um with codec and these kind of ability um with codec and these kind of ability um with codec and these kind of ability to generate code might might be you to generate code might might be you to generate code might might be you might start having tools that understand might start having tools that understand might start having tools that understand the code in interesting deep ways that the code in interesting deep ways that the code in interesting deep ways that can work with you there's there's a can work with you there's there's a can work with you there's there's a whole Spectrum there from uh static code whole Spectrum there from uh static code whole Spectrum there from uh static code analyzers and various kind of dynamic analyzers and various kind of dynamic analyzers and various kind of dynamic tools there up to AI that can tools there up to AI that can tools there up to AI that can conceivably grock these programs that no conceivably grock these programs that no conceivably grock these programs that no literally no human can understand literally no human can understand literally no human can understand they're they're too big too intertwined they're they're too big too intertwined they're they're too big too intertwined and too interconnected but it's not and too interconnected but it's not and too interconnected but it's not beyond the possibility of understanding beyond the possibility of understanding beyond the possibility of understanding it's just beyond what we can hold in our it's just beyond what we can hold in our it's just beyond what we can hold in our heads as kind of mutable State while heads as kind of mutable State while heads as kind of mutable State while we're working on things and and I'm a we're working on things and and I'm a we're working on things and and I'm a big proponent again of things like big proponent again of things like big proponent again of things like static analyzers and some of that stuff static analyzers and some of that stuff static analyzers and some of that stuff where you'll find some people that don't where you'll find some people that don't where you'll find some people that don't like being scolded by a program for how like being scolded by a program for how like being scolded by a program for how they've written something where it's they've written something where it's they've written something where it's like oh I know better and sometimes you like oh I know better and sometimes you like oh I know better and sometimes you do but that was something that I was it do but that was something that I was it do but that was something that I was it was very very valuable for me when uh was very very valuable for me when uh was very very valuable for me when uh and not too many people get an

and not too many people get an and not too many people get an opportunity like this to have this is opportunity like this to have this is opportunity like this to have this is almost one of those spiritual experien almost one of those spiritual experien almost one of those spiritual experien as a programmer and Awakening to um the as a programmer and Awakening to um the as a programmer and Awakening to um the software code bases were couple million software code bases were couple million software code bases were couple million lines of code and at one point I had lines of code and at one point I had lines of code and at one point I had used a few of the different analysis used a few of the different analysis used a few of the different analysis tools but I made a point to really go tools but I made a point to really go tools but I made a point to really go through and scrub the code base using through and scrub the code base using through and scrub the code base using every tool that I could find and it was every tool that I could find and it was every tool that I could find and it was eye openening where we had a reputation eye openening where we had a reputation eye openening where we had a reputation for having some of the the most robust for having some of the the most robust for having some of the the most robust strongest code you know where there were strongest code you know where there were strongest code you know where there were some you know great things that I some you know great things that I some you know great things that I remember hearing from like Microsoft remember hearing from like Microsoft remember hearing from like Microsoft telling us about crashes on Xbox and we telling us about crashes on Xbox and we telling us about crashes on Xbox and we had this tiny number that they said were had this tiny number that they said were had this tiny number that they said were were probably literally Hardware errors were probably literally Hardware errors were probably literally Hardware errors and then you have other significant and then you have other significant and then you have other significant titles that just have millions of faults titles that just have millions of faults titles that just have millions of faults that are getting recorded all the time that are getting recorded all the time that are getting recorded all the time so I was proud of our code on a lot of so I was proud of our code on a lot of so I was proud of our code on a lot of levels but when I took this code levels but when I took this code levels but when I took this code analysis squeegee through everything it analysis squeegee through everything it analysis squeegee through everything it was it was shocking how many errors was it was shocking how many errors was it was shocking how many errors there were in there things that you can there were in there things that you can there were in there things that you can say okay this was this was a copy paste say okay this was this was a copy paste say okay this was this was a copy paste not changing something right here lots not changing something right here lots not changing something right here lots of things that were you know the most of things that were you know the most of things that were you know the most the most common problem was some in a a the most common problem was some in a a the most common problem was some in a a print F format string that was the wrong print F format string that was the wrong print F format string that was the wrong data type that could cause crashes there data type that could cause crashes there data type that could cause crashes there and you know you really want the and you know you really want the and you know you really want the warnings for things like that and the warnings for things like that and the warnings for things like that and the next most common was missing a check for next most common was missing a check for next most common was missing a check for null that could actually happen that null that could actually happen that null that could actually happen that could blow things up and those are could blow things up and those are could blow things up and those are obviously like top cc++ things everybody obviously like top cc++ things everybody obviously like top cc++ things everybody has those problems but the long tale of has those problems but the long tale of has those problems but the long tale of all of the different little things that all of the different little things that all of the different little things that could go wrong there and we had good could go wrong there and we had good could go wrong there and we had good programmers and my own code it's not programmers and my own code it's not programmers and my own code it's not that I'd be looking at it's like oh I that I'd be looking at it's like oh I that I'd be looking at it's like oh I wrote that code that's definitely wrong

wrote that code that's definitely wrong wrote that code that's definitely wrong we've been using this for a year we've been using this for a year we've been using this for a year and it's this submer you know this mine and it's this submer you know this mine and it's this submer you know this mine sitting there waiting for us to step on sitting there waiting for us to step on sitting there waiting for us to step on and it was humbling it was uh and I and it was humbling it was uh and I and it was humbling it was uh and I reached the conclusion that anything reached the conclusion that anything reached the conclusion that anything that can be syntactically allowed in that can be syntactically allowed in that can be syntactically allowed in your language if I it's going to show up your language if I it's going to show up your language if I it's going to show up eventually in a large enough code base I eventually in a large enough code base I eventually in a large enough code base I you're not going to Good Intentions you're not going to Good Intentions you're not going to Good Intentions aren't going to keep it from happening aren't going to keep it from happening aren't going to keep it from happening you need automated tools and guard rails you need automated tools and guard rails you need automated tools and guard rails for things and those start with things for things and those start with things for things and those start with things like static types and or you or even like static types and or you or even like static types and or you or even type hints in the more Dynamic languages type hints in the more Dynamic languages type hints in the more Dynamic languages but the people that rebel against that but the people that rebel against that but the people that rebel against that that basically say uh that slows me down that basically say uh that slows me down that basically say uh that slows me down doing that there's something to that I doing that there's something to that I doing that there's something to that I get that I've written you know I cobbled get that I've written you know I cobbled get that I've written you know I cobbled things together in a notebook I I'm like things together in a notebook I I'm like things together in a notebook I I'm like wow this is great that it just happened wow this is great that it just happened wow this is great that it just happened but yeah that's kind of sketchy but it's but yeah that's kind of sketchy but it's but yeah that's kind of sketchy but it's working fine I don't care it does come working fine I don't care it does come working fine I don't care it does come back to that that value analysis where back to that that value analysis where back to that that value analysis where sometimes it's right to not care but sometimes it's right to not care but sometimes it's right to not care but when you do care if it's going to be when you do care if it's going to be when you do care if it's going to be something that's going to live for years something that's going to live for years something that's going to live for years and is going to have other people and is going to have other people and is going to have other people working on it I and it's going to be working on it I and it's going to be working on it I and it's going to be deployed to millions of people then you deployed to millions of people then you deployed to millions of people then you want to use all of these tools you want want to use all of these tools you want want to use all of these tools you want to be told it's like no you've screwed to be told it's like no you've screwed to be told it's like no you've screwed up here here and here and that does up here here and here and that does up here here and here and that does require kind of an ego check about require kind of an ego check about require kind of an ego check about things where you have to to be open to things where you have to to be open to things where you have to to be open to the fact that everything that you're the fact that everything that you're the fact that everything that you're doing is just littered with flaws it's doing is just littered with flaws it's doing is just littered with flaws it's not that oh you occasionally have a bad not that oh you occasionally have a bad not that oh you occasionally have a bad day it's just whatever stream of code day it's just whatever stream of code day it's just whatever stream of code you output there is going to be a you output there is going to be a you output there is going to be a statistical regularity of things that statistical regularity of things that statistical regularity of things that you just make mistakes on and I and do

you just make mistakes on and I and do you just make mistakes on and I and do think there's the whole argument about think there's the whole argument about think there's the whole argument about test driven design and unit testing test driven design and unit testing test driven design and unit testing versus kind of analysis and different versus kind of analysis and different versus kind of analysis and different things I am more in favor of the things I am more in favor of the things I am more in favor of the analysis and the stuff that just like analysis and the stuff that just like analysis and the stuff that just like you can't run your program until you fix you can't run your program until you fix you can't run your program until you fix this rather than you can run it and this rather than you can run it and this rather than you can run it and hopefully a unit test will catch it in hopefully a unit test will catch it in hopefully a unit test will catch it in some way yeah in my private code I have some way yeah in my private code I have some way yeah in my private code I have asserts everywhere yeah uh it just asserts everywhere yeah uh it just asserts everywhere yeah uh it just there's there's there's something pleasant to me pleasurable to something pleasant to me pleasurable to something pleasant to me pleasurable to me about sort of the dictatorial rule of me about sort of the dictatorial rule of me about sort of the dictatorial rule of like this should be true at this like this should be true at this like this should be true at this point in too many point in too many point in too many times I've made mistakes that shouldn't times I've made mistakes that shouldn't times I've made mistakes that shouldn't have been made and I would assume I I have been made and I would assume I I have been made and I would assume I I wouldn't be the kind of person that wouldn't be the kind of person that wouldn't be the kind of person that would make that mistake but I keep would make that mistake but I keep would make that mistake but I keep making that mistake therefore an assert making that mistake therefore an assert making that mistake therefore an assert really catches me uh really helps all really catches me uh really helps all really catches me uh really helps all the time so my co I would say like 10 to the time so my co I would say like 10 to the time so my co I would say like 10 to 20% of my private Cod just for personal 20% of my private Cod just for personal 20% of my private Cod just for personal use is probably AER and they're active use is probably AER and they're active use is probably AER and they're active comments that's one of those things that comments that's one of those things that comments that's one of those things that theory they don't they don't make any theory they don't they don't make any theory they don't they don't make any difference to the program and if it was difference to the program and if it was difference to the program and if it was all operating the way you expected it all operating the way you expected it all operating the way you expected it would be then I they will never fire but would be then I they will never fire but would be then I they will never fire but even if you have it right and you wrote even if you have it right and you wrote even if you have it right and you wrote the code right initially then the code right initially then the code right initially then circumstances change the world outside circumstances change the world outside circumstances change the world outside your program changes and in fact that's your program changes and in fact that's your program changes and in fact that's that's one of the things where I'm kind that's one of the things where I'm kind that's one of the things where I'm kind of fond in a lot of cases of static of fond in a lot of cases of static of fond in a lot of cases of static array siiz declarations where I went array siiz declarations where I went array siiz declarations where I went through this period where it's like okay through this period where it's like okay through this period where it's like okay now we have General collection classes now we have General collection classes now we have General collection classes we should just make everything variable we should just make everything variable we should just make everything variable I because I had this of in the early

I because I had this of in the early I because I had this of in the early days you get Doom which had some fixed days you get Doom which had some fixed days you get Doom which had some fixed limits on it then everybody started limits on it then everybody started limits on it then everybody started making crazier and crazier things and making crazier and crazier things and making crazier and crazier things and they kept bumping up the different they kept bumping up the different they kept bumping up the different limits this many lines this many sectors limits this many lines this many sectors limits this many lines this many sectors uh and it seemed like a good idea well uh and it seemed like a good idea well uh and it seemed like a good idea well we should just make this completely we should just make this completely we should just make this completely generic it can go kind of go up to generic it can go kind of go up to generic it can go kind of go up to whatever and there's cases where that's whatever and there's cases where that's whatever and there's cases where that's the right thing to do but it also the the right thing to do but it also the the right thing to do but it also the other aspect of the world changing other aspect of the world changing other aspect of the world changing around you is it's good to be informed around you is it's good to be informed around you is it's good to be informed when the world has changed more than you when the world has changed more than you when the world has changed more than you thought it would and if you've got a thought it would and if you've got a thought it would and if you've got a continuously growing collection you're continuously growing collection you're continuously growing collection you're never going to find out you might have never going to find out you might have never going to find out you might have this quadratic slowdown on something this quadratic slowdown on something this quadratic slowdown on something where you thought oh I'm only ever going where you thought oh I'm only ever going where you thought oh I'm only ever going to have a handful of these but something to have a handful of these but something to have a handful of these but something changes and there's a new design style changes and there's a new design style changes and there's a new design style and all of a sudden you've got 10,000 of and all of a sudden you've got 10,000 of and all of a sudden you've got 10,000 of them so I kind of like in many cases them so I kind of like in many cases them so I kind of like in many cases picking a number some you know nice picking a number some you know nice picking a number some you know nice round power of two number and setting it round power of two number and setting it round power of two number and setting it up in there and having an assert saying up in there and having an assert saying up in there and having an assert saying it's like hey you hit the you hit this it's like hey you hit the you hit this it's like hey you hit the you hit this limit you should probably think are the limit you should probably think are the limit you should probably think are the choices that you've made around of this choices that you've made around of this choices that you've made around of this still relevant if somebody's using 10 still relevant if somebody's using 10 still relevant if somebody's using 10 times more than you thought they would times more than you thought they would times more than you thought they would yeah this code was originally written yeah this code was originally written yeah this code was originally written with this kind of world view with this with this kind of world view with this with this kind of world view with this kind of set of constraints you you were kind of set of constraints you you were kind of set of constraints you you were you were thinking of the world in this you were thinking of the world in this you were thinking of the world in this way if something breaks that means you way if something breaks that means you way if something breaks that means you got to rethink the initial stuff and got to rethink the initial stuff and got to rethink the initial stuff and it's it's nice for it to for it for it it's it's nice for it to for it for it it's it's nice for it to for it for it to do that is there any stuff like uh to do that is there any stuff like uh to do that is there any stuff like uh keyboard or I'm I'm fairly pedestrian on keyboard or I'm I'm fairly pedestrian on keyboard or I'm I'm fairly pedestrian on a lot of that where I I did move to a lot of that where I I did move to a lot of that where I I did move to Triple monitors like in the last several

Triple monitors like in the last several Triple monitors like in the last several years ago I had been dual monitor for a years ago I had been dual monitor for a years ago I had been dual monitor for a very long time and I am and it was one very long time and I am and it was one very long time and I am and it was one of those things where probably years of those things where probably years of those things where probably years later than I should have I'm just like later than I should have I'm just like later than I should have I'm just like well the video cards now generally have well the video cards now generally have well the video cards now generally have three output ports I should just put the three output ports I should just put the three output ports I should just put the third monitor up there that's been a third monitor up there that's been a third monitor up there that's been a that's been a pure win I've been very that's been a pure win I've been very that's been a pure win I've been very happy with that um but no I don't have happy with that um but no I don't have happy with that um but no I don't have fancy keyboard or mouse or anything fancy keyboard or mouse or anything fancy keyboard or mouse or anything reallyy things an IDE that has uh reallyy things an IDE that has uh reallyy things an IDE that has uh helpful debuggers has helpful tools so helpful debuggers has helpful tools so helpful debuggers has helpful tools so it's not the emac Vim and then Diet Coke it's not the emac Vim and then Diet Coke it's not the emac Vim and then Diet Coke yeah so I did spend you know I spent uh yeah so I did spend you know I spent uh yeah so I did spend you know I spent uh one of my weeklong Retreats where I'm one of my weeklong Retreats where I'm one of my weeklong Retreats where I'm like okay I'm going to make myself use like okay I'm going to make myself use like okay I'm going to make myself use uh it was actually classic VI which I uh it was actually classic VI which I uh it was actually classic VI which I know people will say you should never know people will say you should never know people will say you should never have done that you should have just used have done that you should have just used have done that you should have just used Vim uh directly but you know I gave it Vim uh directly but you know I gave it Vim uh directly but you know I gave it the good try it's like okay I'm being in the good try it's like okay I'm being in the good try it's like okay I'm being in kind of classic Unix developer mode here kind of classic Unix developer mode here kind of classic Unix developer mode here and I worked for a week on it I used and I worked for a week on it I used and I worked for a week on it I used anky to like teach myself the the anky to like teach myself the the anky to like teach myself the the different little key combinations for different little key combinations for different little key combinations for things like that and in the end it was things like that and in the end it was things like that and in the end it was just like all right this was kind of just like all right this was kind of just like all right this was kind of like my Civil War reenactment phase you like my Civil War reenactment phase you like my Civil War reenactment phase you know it's like I'm going out there doing know it's like I'm going out there doing know it's like I'm going out there doing it like they used to in the old days and it like they used to in the old days and it like they used to in the old days and it it was kind of fun that so many it it was kind of fun that so many it it was kind of fun that so many people right now they screaming as people right now they screaming as people right now they screaming as they're listening to this so again the they're listening to this so again the they're listening to this so again the out is that this was not modern Vim but out is that this was not modern Vim but out is that this was not modern Vim but still I yes I was very happy to get back still I yes I was very happy to get back still I yes I was very happy to get back to my visual studio at the end yeah I'm to my visual studio at the end yeah I'm to my visual studio at the end yeah I'm actually I struggle with this a lot actually I struggle with this a lot actually I struggle with this a lot because so use a Kinesis keyboard and um because so use a Kinesis keyboard and um because so use a Kinesis keyboard and um I use emac primarily I use emac primarily I use emac primarily and I I feel like I I can exactly as you

and I I feel like I I can exactly as you and I I feel like I I can exactly as you said I can understand the code I can said I can understand the code I can said I can understand the code I can navigate the code there's a lot of stuff navigate the code there's a lot of stuff navigate the code there's a lot of stuff you could build with an emx with using you could build with an emx with using you could build with an emx with using lisp you can customize a lot of things lisp you can customize a lot of things lisp you can customize a lot of things for yourself to help you uh introspect for yourself to help you uh introspect for yourself to help you uh introspect the code like to help you understand the the code like to help you understand the the code like to help you understand the code and visualize different aspects of code and visualize different aspects of code and visualize different aspects of the code you can even run debuggers but the code you can even run debuggers but the code you can even run debuggers but it's it's work and uh the world moves it's it's work and uh the world moves it's it's work and uh the world moves past you and the better and better ideas past you and the better and better ideas past you and the better and better ideas are constantly being built and that that are constantly being built and that that are constantly being built and that that puts um kind of I I need to take the puts um kind of I I need to take the puts um kind of I I need to take the same kind of retreat as you're talking same kind of retreat as you're talking same kind of retreat as you're talking about but now I'm still fighting the about but now I'm still fighting the about but now I'm still fighting the Civil War I need to kind of move into Civil War I need to kind of move into Civil War I need to kind of move into the 21st century and it does seem like the 21st century and it does seem like the 21st century and it does seem like the world is or a large chunk of the the world is or a large chunk of the the world is or a large chunk of the world is moving towards Visual Studio world is moving towards Visual Studio world is moving towards Visual Studio code which is kind of interesting to me code which is kind of interesting to me code which is kind of interesting to me again it's the JavaScript ecosystem on again it's the JavaScript ecosystem on again it's the JavaScript ecosystem on the one hand and IDs are one of those the one hand and IDs are one of those the one hand and IDs are one of those things that you want to be infinitely things that you want to be infinitely things that you want to be infinitely fast you want them to just kind of fast you want them to just kind of fast you want them to just kind of immediately respond and like I mean heck immediately respond and like I mean heck immediately respond and like I mean heck I've got there's someone I know I'm an I've got there's someone I know I'm an I've got there's someone I know I'm an old school Game Dev guy that's still old school Game Dev guy that's still old school Game Dev guy that's still uses Visual Studio 6 and on a modern uses Visual Studio 6 and on a modern uses Visual Studio 6 and on a modern computer everything is just absolutely computer everything is just absolutely computer everything is just absolutely instant on something like that because instant on something like that because instant on something like that because it was made to work on a computer that's it was made to work on a computer that's it was made to work on a computer that's 10,000 or 100 thousand times slower so 10,000 or 100 thousand times slower so 10,000 or 100 thousand times slower so just everything happens immediately and just everything happens immediately and just everything happens immediately and all the modern systems just feel you all the modern systems just feel you all the modern systems just feel you know they feel so crufty when it's like know they feel so crufty when it's like know they feel so crufty when it's like oh why is this refreshing the screen and oh why is this refreshing the screen and oh why is this refreshing the screen and moving around and updating over here and moving around and updating over here and moving around and updating over here and something blinks down there and you something blinks down there and you something blinks down there and you should update this and there's you know should update this and there's you know should update this and there's you know there there are things that we've lost there there are things that we've lost there there are things that we've lost with that incredible flexibility but uh

with that incredible flexibility but uh with that incredible flexibility but uh lots of people get tons of value from it lots of people get tons of value from it lots of people get tons of value from it and I am super happy that that seems to and I am super happy that that seems to and I am super happy that that seems to be winning over even a lot of the old BM be winning over even a lot of the old BM be winning over even a lot of the old BM and emac people that they're kind of and emac people that they're kind of and emac people that they're kind of like hey Visual Studio codes maybe you like hey Visual Studio codes maybe you like hey Visual Studio codes maybe you know not so bad I am that maybe the know not so bad I am that maybe the know not so bad I am that maybe the final peacekeeping solution where final peacekeeping solution where final peacekeeping solution where everybody is reasonably happy with I everybody is reasonably happy with I everybody is reasonably happy with I with something like that so can you with something like that so can you with something like that so can you explain what a DOD plan file is and what explain what a DOD plan file is and what explain what a DOD plan file is and what role that played in your life does it role that played in your life does it role that played in your life does it still continue to play a role back in still continue to play a role back in still continue to play a role back in the early early days of ID software uh the early early days of ID software uh the early early days of ID software uh one of our big things that was unique one of our big things that was unique one of our big things that was unique with what we did is uh I had adopted with what we did is uh I had adopted with what we did is uh I had adopted next stations or kind of Next Step next stations or kind of Next Step next stations or kind of Next Step systems from uh Steve Jobs's uh out in systems from uh Steve Jobs's uh out in systems from uh Steve Jobs's uh out in the out in the woods away from Apple the out in the woods away from Apple the out in the woods away from Apple company and I they were basically it was company and I they were basically it was company and I they were basically it was kind of interesting because I did not kind of interesting because I did not kind of interesting because I did not really have a background with the Unix really have a background with the Unix really have a background with the Unix system so many of the people they get uh system so many of the people they get uh system so many of the people they get uh immersed in that in college and I you immersed in that in college and I you immersed in that in college and I you know and that's you know that sets a lot know and that's you know that sets a lot know and that's you know that sets a lot of cultural expectations for them and I of cultural expectations for them and I of cultural expectations for them and I didn't have any of that uh but I knew didn't have any of that uh but I knew didn't have any of that uh but I knew that my background was I was a huge that my background was I was a huge that my background was I was a huge Apple 2 fan boy um I was always a little Apple 2 fan boy um I was always a little Apple 2 fan boy um I was always a little suspicious of the Mac um it was not suspicious of the Mac um it was not suspicious of the Mac um it was not really what I what kind of I wanted to really what I what kind of I wanted to really what I what kind of I wanted to to go with but when Steve Jobs left to go with but when Steve Jobs left to go with but when Steve Jobs left apple and started next uh this computer apple and started next uh this computer apple and started next uh this computer did just seem like one of those amazing did just seem like one of those amazing did just seem like one of those amazing things from the future where it had all things from the future where it had all things from the future where it had all of this cool stuff in it and we were of this cool stuff in it and we were of this cool stuff in it and we were still back in those days working on Doss still back in those days working on Doss still back in those days working on Doss everything blew up you had reset buttons everything blew up you had reset buttons everything blew up you had reset buttons because your computer would just freeze because your computer would just freeze because your computer would just freeze if you're doing development work if you're doing development work if you're doing development work literally dozens of times a day your

literally dozens of times a day your literally dozens of times a day your computer was just rebooting constantly computer was just rebooting constantly computer was just rebooting constantly and so this idea of yes any of the the and so this idea of yes any of the the and so this idea of yes any of the the Unix workstations would have given a Unix workstations would have given a Unix workstations would have given a stable development platform where you stable development platform where you stable development platform where you don't crash and reboot all the time but don't crash and reboot all the time but don't crash and reboot all the time but next also had this really amazing next also had this really amazing next also had this really amazing graphical interface and it was great for graphical interface and it was great for graphical interface and it was great for building tools and it used uh Objective building tools and it used uh Objective building tools and it used uh Objective C as the kind of an interesting oh wow C as the kind of an interesting oh wow C as the kind of an interesting oh wow dead for next was Unix based it's it's dead for next was Unix based it's it's dead for next was Unix based it's it's said Objective C so it has a lot of the said Objective C so it has a lot of the said Objective C so it has a lot of the elements that became Mac I mean the kind elements that became Mac I mean the kind elements that became Mac I mean the kind of reverse acquisition of Apple by next of reverse acquisition of Apple by next of reverse acquisition of Apple by next where that took over and became what uh where that took over and became what uh where that took over and became what uh what the modern Mac system is and Def what the modern Mac system is and Def what the modern Mac system is and Def find some of the developer um like uh find some of the developer um like uh find some of the developer um like uh the tools and the whole Community yeah the tools and the whole Community yeah the tools and the whole Community yeah you've still got if you're programming you've still got if you're programming you've still got if you're programming on Apple stuff now there's still all on Apple stuff now there's still all on Apple stuff now there's still all these NS somethings which was originally these NS somethings which was originally these NS somethings which was originally Next Step objects of different kinds of Next Step objects of different kinds of Next Step objects of different kinds of things but one of the the aspects of things but one of the the aspects of things but one of the the aspects of those old those Unix systems was they those old those Unix systems was they those old those Unix systems was they had this notion of a plan file where you had this notion of a plan file where you had this notion of a plan file where you know a file is a you know an invisible know a file is a you know an invisible know a file is a you know an invisible file usually in your home directory or file usually in your home directory or file usually in your home directory or something and there was a trivial server something and there was a trivial server something and there was a trivial server running on most Unix systems at the time running on most Unix systems at the time running on most Unix systems at the time that I that when somebody ran a trivial that I that when somebody ran a trivial that I that when somebody ran a trivial little command called finger you could little command called finger you could little command called finger you could do finger and then somebody's address it do finger and then somebody's address it do finger and then somebody's address it could be anywhere on the internet if you could be anywhere on the internet if you could be anywhere on the internet if you were connected correctly then all that were connected correctly then all that were connected correctly then all that server would do was read the the do plan server would do was read the the do plan server would do was read the the do plan file in that user's home directory and file in that user's home directory and file in that user's home directory and then just spit it out to you and then just spit it out to you and then just spit it out to you and originally the idea was that could be uh originally the idea was that could be uh originally the idea was that could be uh whether you're on vacation what your whether you're on vacation what your whether you're on vacation what your current project was it's supposed to be

current project was it's supposed to be current project was it's supposed to be like the plan of what you're doing and like the plan of what you're doing and like the plan of what you're doing and people would use it for you know various people would use it for you know various people would use it for you know various purposes but all it did was dump that purposes but all it did was dump that purposes but all it did was dump that file over the to the terminal of whoever file over the to the terminal of whoever file over the to the terminal of whoever issued the the finger command and at you issued the the finger command and at you issued the the finger command and at you know at one point I started just keeping know at one point I started just keeping know at one point I started just keeping a a list of what I was doing in there a a list of what I was doing in there a a list of what I was doing in there which would be what I was working on in which would be what I was working on in which would be what I was working on in the day and I would have this little U the day and I would have this little U the day and I would have this little U syntax I kind of got to myself about syntax I kind of got to myself about syntax I kind of got to myself about uh here's something that I'm working on uh here's something that I'm working on uh here's something that I'm working on I put a star when I finish it I could I put a star when I finish it I could I put a star when I finish it I could have a few other little bits of have a few other little bits of have a few other little bits of punctuation and at the time it was it punctuation and at the time it was it punctuation and at the time it was it started off as being just like my to-do started off as being just like my to-do started off as being just like my to-do list and it would be these trivial list and it would be these trivial list and it would be these trivial obscure little things like I you know obscure little things like I you know obscure little things like I you know fixed something with Collision detection fixed something with Collision detection fixed something with Collision detection code made imp Fireball do something code made imp Fireball do something code made imp Fireball do something different and just little on liners that different and just little on liners that different and just little on liners that people that were following the games people that were following the games people that were following the games could kind of decipher but I did wind up could kind of decipher but I did wind up could kind of decipher but I did wind up starting to write much more in-depth starting to write much more in-depth starting to write much more in-depth things I would have uh little notes of things I would have uh little notes of things I would have uh little notes of uh thoughts and insights and then I uh thoughts and insights and then I uh thoughts and insights and then I would eventually start having little would eventually start having little would eventually start having little essays I would sometimes dump into the essays I would sometimes dump into the essays I would sometimes dump into the plan files interspersed with the plan files interspersed with the plan files interspersed with the worklogs of things that I was doing so worklogs of things that I was doing so worklogs of things that I was doing so in some ways it was like a super early in some ways it was like a super early in some ways it was like a super early Proto blog where I was just kind of Proto blog where I was just kind of Proto blog where I was just kind of dumping out what I was working on but it dumping out what I was working on but it dumping out what I was working on but it was interesting enough that there were a was interesting enough that there were a was interesting enough that there were a lot of people that uh that were lot of people that uh that were lot of people that uh that were interested in this so most of the people interested in this so most of the people interested in this so most of the people didn't have Unix workstations so there didn't have Unix workstations so there didn't have Unix workstations so there were the websites uh back in the day were the websites uh back in the day were the websites uh back in the day that would follow the doom and Quake that would follow the doom and Quake that would follow the doom and Quake develop develop develop that would I would basically make a that would I would basically make a that would I would basically make a little service that would go grab all little service that would go grab all little service that would go grab all the changes and then people could just the changes and then people could just the changes and then people could just get it with a web browser and there was

get it with a web browser and there was get it with a web browser and there was a period where like all of the little a period where like all of the little a period where like all of the little kind of Dallas gaming diaspora of people kind of Dallas gaming diaspora of people kind of Dallas gaming diaspora of people that were at all in that orbit there that were at all in that orbit there that were at all in that orbit there were a couple dozen plan files going on were a couple dozen plan files going on were a couple dozen plan files going on which was and this was some years before which was and this was some years before which was and this was some years before blogging really became kind of a thing blogging really became kind of a thing blogging really became kind of a thing and it was kind of a um a premonition of and it was kind of a um a premonition of and it was kind of a um a premonition of sort of the way things would go and sort of the way things would go and sort of the way things would go and there was uh it's all been collected there was uh it's all been collected there was uh it's all been collected it's available online in different it's available online in different it's available online in different places and it's kind of fun to go back places and it's kind of fun to go back places and it's kind of fun to go back and look through what I was thinking uh and look through what I was thinking uh and look through what I was thinking uh what I was doing in the different areas what I was doing in the different areas what I was doing in the different areas have you had a chance to look back is have you had a chance to look back is have you had a chance to look back is there some interesting very lowlevel there some interesting very lowlevel there some interesting very lowlevel specific to-do items maybe things you've specific to-do items maybe things you've specific to-do items maybe things you've never completed all that kind of stuff never completed all that kind of stuff never completed all that kind of stuff and highlevel philosophical essay type and highlevel philosophical essay type and highlevel philosophical essay type of stuff uh there's some yeah there's of stuff uh there's some yeah there's of stuff uh there's some yeah there's some good stuff on both where a lot of some good stuff on both where a lot of some good stuff on both where a lot of it was low-level nitpicky details about it was low-level nitpicky details about it was low-level nitpicky details about Game Dev and um you know I've learned Game Dev and um you know I've learned Game Dev and um you know I've learned learned enough things where there's no learned enough things where there's no learned enough things where there's no project that I worked on that I couldn't project that I worked on that I couldn't project that I worked on that I couldn't go back and do a better job on now I I go back and do a better job on now I I go back and do a better job on now I I mean you just you learn things hopefully mean you just you learn things hopefully mean you just you learn things hopefully if you're doing it right you learn if you're doing it right you learn if you're doing it right you learn things as you get older and you should things as you get older and you should things as you get older and you should be able to do a better job at all of the be able to do a better job at all of the be able to do a better job at all of the early things and there's stuff in early things and there's stuff in early things and there's stuff in Wolfenstein Doom Quake that I'm like oh Wolfenstein Doom Quake that I'm like oh Wolfenstein Doom Quake that I'm like oh clearly I I could go back and do a clearly I I could go back and do a clearly I I could go back and do a better job at this whether it's better job at this whether it's better job at this whether it's something in the rendering engine side something in the rendering engine side something in the rendering engine side or how I implemented the the monster or how I implemented the the monster or how I implemented the the monster behaviors or managed resources or behaviors or managed resources or behaviors or managed resources or anything see the flaws in your thinking anything see the flaws in your thinking anything see the flaws in your thinking now now now like looking back yeah I do I mean like looking back yeah I do I mean like looking back yeah I do I mean sometimes I'll get the you know I'll sometimes I'll get the you know I'll sometimes I'll get the you know I'll look at it and say yeah I I had a pretty look at it and say yeah I I had a pretty look at it and say yeah I I had a pretty clear view of I was doing good work

clear view of I was doing good work clear view of I was doing good work there and I haven't really hit the point there and I haven't really hit the point there and I haven't really hit the point where there was another programmer where there was another programmer where there was another programmer Graham Divine who was uh he had worked Graham Divine who was uh he had worked Graham Divine who was uh he had worked at ID and seventh guest and and he had at ID and seventh guest and and he had at ID and seventh guest and and he had made some comment one time where he said made some comment one time where he said made some comment one time where he said he looked back at some of his old notes he looked back at some of his old notes he looked back at some of his old notes he was like wow I was really smart back he was like wow I was really smart back he was like wow I was really smart back then and I I don't hit that so much then and I I don't hit that so much then and I I don't hit that so much where I mean I look at it and I always where I mean I look at it and I always where I mean I look at it and I always know that yeah there's all the you know know that yeah there's all the you know know that yeah there's all the you know with aging you get certain changes in in with aging you get certain changes in in with aging you get certain changes in in how you you're able to work problems but how you you're able to work problems but how you you're able to work problems but all of the problems that I've worked I all of the problems that I've worked I all of the problems that I've worked I I'm you know I'm sure that I could do a I'm you know I'm sure that I could do a I'm you know I'm sure that I could do a better job on all of them oh wow so you better job on all of them oh wow so you better job on all of them oh wow so you can still step right in if you could can still step right in if you could can still step right in if you could travel back in time and talk to that guy travel back in time and talk to that guy travel back in time and talk to that guy you would teach him a few things yeah you would teach him a few things yeah you would teach him a few things yeah absolutely that's awesome um what about absolutely that's awesome um what about absolutely that's awesome um what about the high LEL philosophical stuff is the high LEL philosophical stuff is the high LEL philosophical stuff is there some insights that stand out that there some insights that stand out that there some insights that stand out that you remember there's things that that I you remember there's things that that I you remember there's things that that I was understanding about velopment and I was understanding about velopment and I was understanding about velopment and I you know and the industry and so on that you know and the industry and so on that you know and the industry and so on that were in a in a more primitive stage were in a in a more primitive stage were in a in a more primitive stage where um I definitely learned a lot more where um I definitely learned a lot more where um I definitely learned a lot more in the later years about business and in the later years about business and in the later years about business and organization and team structure there organization and team structure there organization and team structure there were I mean there were definitely things were I mean there were definitely things were I mean there were definitely things that I was not the best person or even a that I was not the best person or even a that I was not the best person or even a very good person about managing like how very good person about managing like how very good person about managing like how a a team should operate internally how a a team should operate internally how a a team should operate internally how people should work together I was just I people should work together I was just I people should work together I was just I you know the just get out of my way and you know the just get out of my way and you know the just get out of my way and let me work on the code and do this and let me work on the code and do this and let me work on the code and do this and more and more I've learned more and more I've learned more and more I've learned how in the larger scheme of things how

how in the larger scheme of things how how in the larger scheme of things how sometimes relatively unimportant some of sometimes relatively unimportant some of sometimes relatively unimportant some of those things are where it is this user those things are where it is this user those things are where it is this user value generation that's the the value generation that's the the value generation that's the the overarching importance for all of that overarching importance for all of that overarching importance for all of that and I I didn't necessarily have my eye and I I didn't necessarily have my eye and I I didn't necessarily have my eye on that ball correctly through a lot of on that ball correctly through a lot of on that ball correctly through a lot of my you know my earlier years and there's my you know my earlier years and there's my you know my earlier years and there's things that you know I could have I things that you know I could have I things that you know I could have I could have gotten more out of people could have gotten more out of people could have gotten more out of people handling things in different ways I you handling things in different ways I you handling things in different ways I you know I could have made you know in some know I could have made you know in some know I could have made you know in some ways more successful products by ways more successful products by ways more successful products by following things in different ways following things in different ways following things in different ways there's mistakes that we made that we there's mistakes that we made that we there's mistakes that we made that we couldn't really have have known how couldn't really have have known how couldn't really have have known how things would have worked out but it was things would have worked out but it was things would have worked out but it was interesting to see in later years interesting to see in later years interesting to see in later years companies like Activision showing that companies like Activision showing that companies like Activision showing that hey you really can just do the same game hey you really can just do the same game hey you really can just do the same game make it better every year and you can make it better every year and you can make it better every year and you can look at that from a negative standpoint look at that from a negative standpoint look at that from a negative standpoint and say it's like oh that's just being and say it's like oh that's just being and say it's like oh that's just being derivative and all that but if you step derivative and all that but if you step derivative and all that but if you step back again and say it's like no are the back again and say it's like no are the back again and say it's like no are the people buying it still enjoying it are people buying it still enjoying it are people buying it still enjoying it are they enjoying it more than what they they enjoying it more than what they they enjoying it more than what they might have bought otherwise and you can might have bought otherwise and you can might have bought otherwise and you can say no that's that's actually a great say no that's that's actually a great say no that's that's actually a great value creation engine to do that if value creation engine to do that if value creation engine to do that if you're in a position where you can I you you're in a position where you can I you you're in a position where you can I you know don't be forced into Reinventing know don't be forced into Reinventing know don't be forced into Reinventing everything just because you think that everything just because you think that everything just because you think that you need to um you know lots of things you need to um you know lots of things you need to um you know lots of things about business and team stuff that could about business and team stuff that could about business and team stuff that could be done better but the technical work be done better but the technical work be done better but the technical work that the kind of technical Visionary that the kind of technical Visionary that the kind of technical Visionary type stuff that I laid I laid out I type stuff that I laid I laid out I type stuff that I laid I laid out I still feel pretty good about there are still feel pretty good about there are still feel pretty good about there are some class old ones about my defending some class old ones about my defending some class old ones about my defending of open GL versus d3d um which uh turned of open GL versus d3d um which uh turned of open GL versus d3d um which uh turned out to be one of the more probably out to be one of the more probably out to be one of the more probably important momentous things there where important momentous things there where important momentous things there where it never it was always a rear guard

it never it was always a rear guard it never it was always a rear guard action on Windows where Microsoft was action on Windows where Microsoft was action on Windows where Microsoft was just not going to let that win but when just not going to let that win but when just not going to let that win but when I look back on it now that fight to keep I look back on it now that fight to keep I look back on it now that fight to keep openg GL relevant for a number of years openg GL relevant for a number of years openg GL relevant for a number of years there meant that openg was there when there meant that openg was there when there meant that openg was there when mobile started happening and openg GES mobile started happening and openg GES mobile started happening and openg GES was the thing thing that drove all of was the thing thing that drove all of was the thing thing that drove all of the acceleration of the mobile industry the acceleration of the mobile industry the acceleration of the mobile industry and it's really only in the last few and it's really only in the last few and it's really only in the last few years as Apple's moved to metal and some years as Apple's moved to metal and some years as Apple's moved to metal and some of the other companies have moved to of the other companies have moved to of the other companies have moved to Vulcan that that's moved away but really Vulcan that that's moved away but really Vulcan that that's moved away but really stepping back and looking at it it's stepping back and looking at it it's stepping back and looking at it it's like yeah I sold tens of millions of like yeah I sold tens of millions of like yeah I sold tens of millions of games for different things but billions games for different things but billions games for different things but billions and billions of devices wound up with an and billions of devices wound up with an and billions of devices wound up with an appropriate capable Graphics API do in appropriate capable Graphics API do in appropriate capable Graphics API do in no small part to me thinking that that no small part to me thinking that that no small part to me thinking that that was really important that we not just uh was really important that we not just uh was really important that we not just uh you know give up and use Microsoft's um you know give up and use Microsoft's um you know give up and use Microsoft's um at that time really terrible API you at that time really terrible API you at that time really terrible API you know the thing about Microsoft is the know the thing about Microsoft is the know the thing about Microsoft is the apis don't stay terrible they were apis don't stay terrible they were apis don't stay terrible they were terrible at the start but a few versions terrible at the start but a few versions terrible at the start but a few versions on they were actually quite good and on they were actually quite good and on they were actually quite good and there was a completely Fair argument to there was a completely Fair argument to there was a completely Fair argument to be made that by the time dx9 was out it be made that by the time dx9 was out it be made that by the time dx9 was out it was probably a better programming was probably a better programming was probably a better programming environment than opengl but it was still environment than opengl but it was still environment than opengl but it was still a wonderful good thing that we had an a wonderful good thing that we had an a wonderful good thing that we had an open standard that could show up on open standard that could show up on open standard that could show up on Linux and andro roid and iOS and Linux and andro roid and iOS and Linux and andro roid and iOS and eventually webgl still to this day so uh eventually webgl still to this day so uh eventually webgl still to this day so uh that was that was one that would be on that was that was one that would be on that was that was one that would be on My Greatest Hits list of things that My Greatest Hits list of things that My Greatest Hits list of things that that I impact that it had on billions of that I impact that it had on billions of that I impact that it had on billions of devices yes so let's talk about it can

devices yes so let's talk about it can devices yes so let's talk about it can you tell the origin story of It you tell the origin story of It you tell the origin story of It software again one of the greatest game software again one of the greatest game software again one of the greatest game developer companies ever it created developer companies ever it created developer companies ever it created Wolfenstein 3D games that Define my life Wolfenstein 3D games that Define my life Wolfenstein 3D games that Define my life also in many ways as a thing that made also in many ways as a thing that made also in many ways as a thing that made me realize what computers are capable of me realize what computers are capable of me realize what computers are capable of in terms of Graphics in terms of in terms of Graphics in terms of in terms of Graphics in terms of performance it just unlocks something performance it just unlocks something performance it just unlocks something deep um in me and understanding what deep um in me and understanding what deep um in me and understanding what these machines are all about as games these machines are all about as games these machines are all about as games can do that so Wolfenstein 3D Doom quake can do that so Wolfenstein 3D Doom quake can do that so Wolfenstein 3D Doom quake and uh just all the incredible and uh just all the incredible and uh just all the incredible engineering Innovation that went into engineering Innovation that went into engineering Innovation that went into that so how did it all start so I'll that so how did it all start so I'll that so how did it all start so I'll caveat UPF front that I usually don't caveat UPF front that I usually don't caveat UPF front that I usually don't consider myself the the historian of the consider myself the the historian of the consider myself the the historian of the the software side of things I usually do the software side of things I usually do the software side of things I usually do I kind of Point people at John Romero I kind of Point people at John Romero I kind of Point people at John Romero for stories about the early days for stories about the early days for stories about the early days where I you know I've never been like where I you know I've never been like where I you know I've never been like I've commented that I'm a remarkably I've commented that I'm a remarkably I've commented that I'm a remarkably unsentimental person in some ways where unsentimental person in some ways where unsentimental person in some ways where I don't really spend a lot of time I don't really spend a lot of time I don't really spend a lot of time unless I'm explicitly prodded to go back unless I'm explicitly prodded to go back unless I'm explicitly prodded to go back and and think about the early days of and and think about the early days of and and think about the early days of things and I didn't I I didn't things and I didn't I I didn't things and I didn't I I didn't necessarily make the effort to Archive necessarily make the effort to Archive necessarily make the effort to Archive everything exactly in my brain and the everything exactly in my brain and the everything exactly in my brain and the more that I work on machine learning and more that I work on machine learning and more that I work on machine learning and Ai and the aspects of memory and how Ai and the aspects of memory and how Ai and the aspects of memory and how when you go back and polish certain when you go back and polish certain when you go back and polish certain things it's not necessarily exactly the things it's not necessarily exactly the things it's not necessarily exactly the way it happened but you know having said way it happened but you know having said way it happened but you know having said all of that from from my view the way all of that from from my view the way all of that from from my view the way everything happened that led up to that everything happened that led up to that everything happened that led up to that was uh after I was an adult and kind of was uh after I was an adult and kind of was uh after I was an adult and kind of taking a few college classes deciding to taking a few college classes deciding to taking a few college classes deciding to drop out I was doing I was Hard Scrabble

drop out I was doing I was Hard Scrabble drop out I was doing I was Hard Scrabble contract programming work really contract programming work really contract programming work really struggling to kind of keep groceries and struggling to kind of keep groceries and struggling to kind of keep groceries and pay my rent and things and the company pay my rent and things and the company pay my rent and things and the company that I was doing the most work for was a that I was doing the most work for was a that I was doing the most work for was a company called Soft disk publishing company called Soft disk publishing company called Soft disk publishing which had had the sounds bizarre now which had had the sounds bizarre now which had had the sounds bizarre now business model of monthly subscription business model of monthly subscription business model of monthly subscription software you know before there was an software you know before there was an software you know before there was an Internet that people could connect to Internet that people could connect to Internet that people could connect to and get software you would pay you know and get software you would pay you know and get software you would pay you know a certain amount and every month they a certain amount and every month they a certain amount and every month they would send you a disc that had some would send you a disc that had some would send you a disc that had some random software on it and people that random software on it and people that random software on it and people that were into computers thought this was were into computers thought this was were into computers thought this was kind of cool and they had different ones kind of cool and they had different ones kind of cool and they had different ones for the Apple 2 the the 2gs the PC the for the Apple 2 the the 2gs the PC the for the Apple 2 the the 2gs the PC the Mac the uh Amiga lots of different Mac the uh Amiga lots of different Mac the uh Amiga lots of different things here so quirky little business things here so quirky little business things here so quirky little business but I was doing a lot of contract but I was doing a lot of contract but I was doing a lot of contract programming for them where I'd write programming for them where I'd write programming for them where I'd write tiny little games and sell them for $300 tiny little games and sell them for $300 tiny little games and sell them for $300 $500 and one of the things that that I $500 and one of the things that that I $500 and one of the things that that I was doing again to keep my head above was doing again to keep my head above was doing again to keep my head above water here was I decided that I could water here was I decided that I could water here was I decided that I could make one program and I could Port Port make one program and I could Port Port make one program and I could Port Port it to multiple system so I would write a it to multiple system so I would write a it to multiple system so I would write a game like dark designs or catacombs and game like dark designs or catacombs and game like dark designs or catacombs and I would develop it on the Apple 2 the I would develop it on the Apple 2 the I would develop it on the Apple 2 the 2gs and the IBM PC which apparently was 2gs and the IBM PC which apparently was 2gs and the IBM PC which apparently was the thing that really kind of pequ the the thing that really kind of pequ the the thing that really kind of pequ the attention of the the people working down attention of the the people working down attention of the the people working down there like Jay Wilbur was my primary there like Jay Wilbur was my primary there like Jay Wilbur was my primary editor and Tom Hall was a secondary editor and Tom Hall was a secondary editor and Tom Hall was a secondary editor and they kept asking me it's like editor and they kept asking me it's like editor and they kept asking me it's like hey you should come down uh and work for hey you should come down uh and work for hey you should come down uh and work for us here and I I pushed it off a couple us here and I I pushed it off a couple us here and I I pushed it off a couple times because I was really enjoying my times because I was really enjoying my times because I was really enjoying my freedom of kind of being off on my own freedom of kind of being off on my own freedom of kind of being off on my own even if I was barely getting by I loved

even if I was barely getting by I loved even if I was barely getting by I loved it I was doing nothing but programming it I was doing nothing but programming it I was doing nothing but programming all day but I did have enough close all day but I did have enough close all day but I did have enough close scrapes with like damn I'm just really scrapes with like damn I'm just really scrapes with like damn I'm just really out of money that maybe I should I get out of money that maybe I should I get out of money that maybe I should I get an actual ual job rather than an actual ual job rather than an actual ual job rather than Contracting these kind of one at a time Contracting these kind of one at a time Contracting these kind of one at a time things and and Jay Wilbur was great he things and and Jay Wilbur was great he things and and Jay Wilbur was great he was like fedexing me the checks when I was like fedexing me the checks when I was like fedexing me the checks when I would need them I to kind of get over would need them I to kind of get over would need them I to kind of get over whatever hump I was at so I took the I whatever hump I was at so I took the I whatever hump I was at so I took the I finally took them up on their offer to finally took them up on their offer to finally took them up on their offer to come down to shreport Louisiana I was in come down to shreport Louisiana I was in come down to shreport Louisiana I was in Kansas City at the time drove down I to Kansas City at the time drove down I to Kansas City at the time drove down I to through the Ozarks and everything down through the Ozarks and everything down through the Ozarks and everything down to Louisiana and saw the soft dis to Louisiana and saw the soft dis to Louisiana and saw the soft dis offices went through talked to a bunch offices went through talked to a bunch offices went through talked to a bunch of people met the people I had been of people met the people I had been of people met the people I had been working with uh remotely at that time working with uh remotely at that time working with uh remotely at that time but the most important thing for me was but the most important thing for me was but the most important thing for me was I met two programmers there John Romero I met two programmers there John Romero I met two programmers there John Romero and Lane Roth that for the first time and Lane Roth that for the first time and Lane Roth that for the first time ever I had met programmers that knew ever I had met programmers that knew ever I had met programmers that knew more cool stuff than I did where the more cool stuff than I did where the more cool stuff than I did where the world was just different back then I was world was just different back then I was world was just different back then I was in Kansas City it was one of those in Kansas City it was one of those in Kansas City it was one of those smartest kid in the school does all the smartest kid in the school does all the smartest kid in the school does all the computer stuff the teachers don't have computer stuff the teachers don't have computer stuff the teachers don't have anything to teach him but all I had to anything to teach him but all I had to anything to teach him but all I had to learn from was these few books at the learn from was these few books at the learn from was these few books at the library it was not much at all and there library it was not much at all and there library it was not much at all and there were some aspects of programming that were some aspects of programming that were some aspects of programming that were kind of black magic to me like it's were kind of black magic to me like it's were kind of black magic to me like it's like oh he knows how to format a track like oh he knows how to format a track like oh he knows how to format a track on I you know on a low-level Drive on I you know on a low-level Drive on I you know on a low-level Drive programming interface and this was I was programming interface and this was I was programming interface and this was I was still not at all sure I was going to still not at all sure I was going to still not at all sure I was going to take the job but I met these awesome take the job but I met these awesome take the job but I met these awesome programmers that were doing cool stuff programmers that were doing cool stuff programmers that were doing cool stuff and like Romero had worked at origin and like Romero had worked at origin and like Romero had worked at origin systems and he had done like you know so

systems and he had done like you know so systems and he had done like you know so many different games uh ahead of time many different games uh ahead of time many different games uh ahead of time that I did kind of quickly decide it's that I did kind of quickly decide it's that I did kind of quickly decide it's like yeah I'll go take the job down like yeah I'll go take the job down like yeah I'll go take the job down there and I settled down there uh moved there and I settled down there uh moved there and I settled down there uh moved in and started working on more little in and started working on more little in and started working on more little projects and the first kind of big projects and the first kind of big projects and the first kind of big change that happened down there was the change that happened down there was the change that happened down there was the company wanted to make a gaming focused company wanted to make a gaming focused company wanted to make a gaming focused a PC gaming focused subscription uh just a PC gaming focused subscription uh just a PC gaming focused subscription uh just like all their other was the same like all their other was the same like all their other was the same formula that they used for everything formula that they used for everything formula that they used for everything pay a monthly fee and you'll get uh a pay a monthly fee and you'll get uh a pay a monthly fee and you'll get uh a disc with one or two games just every disc with one or two games just every disc with one or two games just every month and no choice in what you get but month and no choice in what you get but month and no choice in what you get but we think it'll be fun and that was the we think it'll be fun and that was the we think it'll be fun and that was the model they were comfortable with and model they were comfortable with and model they were comfortable with and said all right we're going to start this said all right we're going to start this said all right we're going to start this Gamers Edge department and all of us Gamers Edge department and all of us Gamers Edge department and all of us that were interested in that like me that were interested in that like me that were interested in that like me Romero I Tom Hall was kind of helping us Romero I Tom Hall was kind of helping us Romero I Tom Hall was kind of helping us from from his side of things Jay would from from his side of things Jay would from from his side of things Jay would peek in and we had a few other peek in and we had a few other peek in and we had a few other programmers uh working with us at the programmers uh working with us at the programmers uh working with us at the time and we were going to to just start time and we were going to to just start time and we were going to to just start making games just the same model um and making games just the same model um and making games just the same model um and we dived in and it was fantastic you we dived in and it was fantastic you we dived in and it was fantastic you know have to make new games every month know have to make new games every month know have to make new games every month every month yeah and this in retrospect every month yeah and this in retrospect every month yeah and this in retrospect looking back at it that sense that I had looking back at it that sense that I had looking back at it that sense that I had done all this contract programming and done all this contract programming and done all this contract programming and John Romero had done like far more of John Romero had done like far more of John Romero had done like far more of this where he had done one of his this where he had done one of his this where he had done one of his teaching himself efforts was he made a teaching himself efforts was he made a teaching himself efforts was he made a game for every letter of the alphabet game for every letter of the alphabet game for every letter of the alphabet it's that sense of like I'm just going it's that sense of like I'm just going it's that sense of like I'm just going to go make 26 different games give them to go make 26 different games give them to go make 26 different games give them a different theme and you learn so much a different theme and you learn so much a different theme and you learn so much when you go through and you crank crank when you go through and you crank crank when you go through and you crank crank these things out like on a bi-weekly these things out like on a bi-weekly these things out like on a bi-weekly monthly basis something like to finish monthly basis something like to finish monthly basis something like to finish it's not like an just an idea it's not

it's not like an just an idea it's not it's not like an just an idea it's not just from from the very beginning to the just from from the very beginning to the just from from the very beginning to the very end is done it has to be done very end is done it has to be done very end is done it has to be done there's no delaying it's done and you've there's no delaying it's done and you've there's no delaying it's done and you've got deadlines and that kind of uh rapid got deadlines and that kind of uh rapid got deadlines and that kind of uh rapid iteration pressure cooker environment iteration pressure cooker environment iteration pressure cooker environment was super important for all of us was super important for all of us was super important for all of us developing the skills that I you know developing the skills that I you know developing the skills that I you know that brought us to where we eventually that brought us to where we eventually that brought us to where we eventually went to I mean people would say like went to I mean people would say like went to I mean people would say like like in the history of The Beatles like like in the history of The Beatles like like in the history of The Beatles like it wasn't them being the Beatles it was it wasn't them being the Beatles it was it wasn't them being the Beatles it was them playing all of these other uh you them playing all of these other uh you them playing all of these other uh you know early works that that opportunity know early works that that opportunity know early works that that opportunity to craft all of their skills before they to craft all of their skills before they to craft all of their skills before they were famous that was very critical to were famous that was very critical to were famous that was very critical to their later successes and I think their later successes and I think their later successes and I think there's lot of that here where we did there's lot of that here where we did there's lot of that here where we did these games that nobody remembers uh these games that nobody remembers uh these games that nobody remembers uh lots of little things that contributed lots of little things that contributed lots of little things that contributed to building up the skill set for the to building up the skill set for the to building up the skill set for the things that eventually did make us things that eventually did make us things that eventually did make us famous dooski wrote The Gambler I had to famous dooski wrote The Gambler I had to famous dooski wrote The Gambler I had to write it in a month just make money and write it in a month just make money and write it in a month just make money and nobody remembers that probably cuz he nobody remembers that probably cuz he nobody remembers that probably cuz he had to figure out cuz it's had to figure out cuz it's had to figure out cuz it's literally he didn't have enough time to literally he didn't have enough time to literally he didn't have enough time to write it fast enough so he had to come write it fast enough so he had to come write it fast enough so he had to come up with hacks actually literally it up with hacks actually literally it up with hacks actually literally it again comes down to that point where again comes down to that point where again comes down to that point where pressure and limitation of resources is pressure and limitation of resources is pressure and limitation of resources is surprisingly important and it's surprisingly important and it's surprisingly important and it's counterintuitive in a lot of ways where counterintuitive in a lot of ways where counterintuitive in a lot of ways where you just think that if you've got all you just think that if you've got all you just think that if you've got all the time in the world and you've got all the time in the world and you've got all the time in the world and you've got all the resources in the world of course the resources in the world of course the resources in the world of course you're going to get something better but you're going to get something better but you're going to get something better but sometimes it really does work out that sometimes it really does work out that sometimes it really does work out that the you know Innovation other necessity the you know Innovation other necessity the you know Innovation other necessity and you know where you can or resource and you know where you can or resource and you know where you can or resource constraints and you have to do things constraints and you have to do things constraints and you have to do things when you don't have a choice it's

when you don't have a choice it's when you don't have a choice it's surprising what you can do is there any surprising what you can do is there any surprising what you can do is there any good games written in that time would good games written in that time would good games written in that time would you say some of them are still fun to go you say some of them are still fun to go you say some of them are still fun to go back and play where you get the they back and play where you get the they back and play where you get the they were they were all about kind of the mo were they were all about kind of the mo were they were all about kind of the mo more modern term is game feel about how more modern term is game feel about how more modern term is game feel about how just the exact feeli that things it's just the exact feeli that things it's just the exact feeli that things it's not the grand strategy of the design but not the grand strategy of the design but not the grand strategy of the design but how running and jumping and shooting and how running and jumping and shooting and how running and jumping and shooting and those things I feel in the in the moment those things I feel in the in the moment those things I feel in the in the moment and some of those are still if you sat and some of those are still if you sat and some of those are still if you sat down at them you kind of go it's a down at them you kind of go it's a down at them you kind of go it's a little bit different it doesn't have the little bit different it doesn't have the little bit different it doesn't have the same movement feel but you move over and same movement feel but you move over and same movement feel but you move over and you're like bang jump bang it's like hey you're like bang jump bang it's like hey you're like bang jump bang it's like hey that's kind of cool still so you can get that's kind of cool still so you can get that's kind of cool still so you can get lost in the rhythm of the game like the lost in the rhythm of the game like the lost in the rhythm of the game like the is that what you mean by feel just like is that what you mean by feel just like is that what you mean by feel just like uh there's something about it that pulls uh there's something about it that pulls uh there's something about it that pulls you in nowadays again people talk about you in nowadays again people talk about you in nowadays again people talk about compulsion loops and things where it's compulsion loops and things where it's compulsion loops and things where it's that um that sense of exactly what that um that sense of exactly what that um that sense of exactly what you're doing what your fingers are doing you're doing what your fingers are doing you're doing what your fingers are doing on the keyboard what your eyes are on the keyboard what your eyes are on the keyboard what your eyes are seeing and there are going to be these seeing and there are going to be these seeing and there are going to be these sequences of things grab the loot shoot sequences of things grab the loot shoot sequences of things grab the loot shoot the Monster jump over the obstacle get the Monster jump over the obstacle get the Monster jump over the obstacle get to the end of the level these are to the end of the level these are to the end of the level these are Eternal aspects of game design in a lot Eternal aspects of game design in a lot Eternal aspects of game design in a lot of ways but there are better and worse of ways but there are better and worse of ways but there are better and worse ways to do all of them and we did so ways to do all of them and we did so ways to do all of them and we did so many of these games that it was uh we many of these games that it was uh we many of these games that it was uh we got a lot of practice with it so one of got a lot of practice with it so one of got a lot of practice with it so one of the kind of weird things that was the kind of weird things that was the kind of weird things that was happening at this time is John Romero happening at this time is John Romero happening at this time is John Romero was getting some uh some strange fan was getting some uh some strange fan was getting some uh some strange fan mail and back in the days this was mail and back in the days this was mail and back in the days this was before email so we literally got letters before email so we literally got letters before email so we literally got letters sometimes and telling him it's like oh I sometimes and telling him it's like oh I sometimes and telling him it's like oh I want to talk to you about your games I want to talk to you about your games I want to talk to you about your games I want to uh reach out different things want to uh reach out different things want to uh reach out different things and I eventually it turned out that

and I eventually it turned out that and I eventually it turned out that these were all coming from Scott Miller these were all coming from Scott Miller these were all coming from Scott Miller at apogee software and he was reaching at apogee software and he was reaching at apogee software and he was reaching out through he didn't think he could out through he didn't think he could out through he didn't think he could contact johon directly that he would get contact johon directly that he would get contact johon directly that he would get intercepted so he was trying to get him intercepted so he was trying to get him intercepted so he was trying to get him to contact him through like back Channel to contact him through like back Channel to contact him through like back Channel fan mail because he basically was saying fan mail because he basically was saying fan mail because he basically was saying hey I'm making all this money on hey I'm making all this money on hey I'm making all this money on shareware games I want you to make shareware games I want you to make shareware games I want you to make shareware games because he had seen some shareware games because he had seen some shareware games because he had seen some of the the games that Romero had done of the the games that Romero had done of the the games that Romero had done and you know we looked at uh Scott and you know we looked at uh Scott and you know we looked at uh Scott Miller's games and we didn't think they Miller's games and we didn't think they Miller's games and we didn't think they were very good um we're like that can't were very good um we're like that can't were very good um we're like that can't be making the kind of money that he's be making the kind of money that he's be making the kind of money that he's saying he's making 10 grand or something saying he's making 10 grand or something saying he's making 10 grand or something um off of this game and we really um off of this game and we really um off of this game and we really thought that he was full of that it thought that he was full of that it thought that he was full of that it was a lie trying to get uh to get him was a lie trying to get uh to get him was a lie trying to get uh to get him into this but so that was kind of going into this but so that was kind of going into this but so that was kind of going on at I you know at one level he was and on at I you know at one level he was and on at I you know at one level he was and it was funny the moment when Romero it was funny the moment when Romero it was funny the moment when Romero realized that he had some of these realized that he had some of these realized that he had some of these letters pinned up on his wall of like letters pinned up on his wall of like letters pinned up on his wall of like all of his fans and then we noticed that all of his fans and then we noticed that all of his fans and then we noticed that they all had the same return address they all had the same return address they all had the same return address with different names on them which was a with different names on them which was a with different names on them which was a little bit of a two-edged sword there little bit of a two-edged sword there little bit of a two-edged sword there trying to figure out the puzzle laid out trying to figure out the puzzle laid out trying to figure out the puzzle laid out out before him yeah happened after I out before him yeah happened after I out before him yeah happened after I kind of coincident with that was I was kind of coincident with that was I was kind of coincident with that was I was working on a lot of the new technologies working on a lot of the new technologies working on a lot of the new technologies where uh I was now full on the IBM PC where uh I was now full on the IBM PC where uh I was now full on the IBM PC for the first time where I was really a for the first time where I was really a for the first time where I was really a long hold out on Apple 2 forever and I long hold out on Apple 2 forever and I long hold out on Apple 2 forever and I you know I loved my Apple 2 it was the you know I loved my Apple 2 it was the you know I loved my Apple 2 it was the computer I was wished I had when I was computer I was wished I had when I was computer I was wished I had when I was growing up and when I finally did have growing up and when I finally did have growing up and when I finally did have one I was I was kind of clinging on to one I was I was kind of clinging on to one I was I was kind of clinging on to that well past it sort of good use by that well past it sort of good use by that well past it sort of good use by the best computer ever made you would the best computer ever made you would the best computer ever made you would you say um I wouldn't make judgments

you say um I wouldn't make judgments you say um I wouldn't make judgments like that about it but it was position like that about it but it was position like that about it but it was position in such a way especially in the school in such a way especially in the school in such a way especially in the school systems that it impacted a whole lot of systems that it impacted a whole lot of systems that it impacted a whole lot of American programmers at least where American programmers at least where American programmers at least where there was programs that the Apple tw's there was programs that the Apple tw's there was programs that the Apple tw's got into the schools and they had enough got into the schools and they had enough got into the schools and they had enough capability that lots of interesting capability that lots of interesting capability that lots of interesting things happened with them you know in things happened with them you know in things happened with them you know in Europe it was different you had your Europe it was different you had your Europe it was different you had your Amigas and Ataris and you know acorns in Amigas and Ataris and you know acorns in Amigas and Ataris and you know acorns in the UK and things that that had the UK and things that that had the UK and things that that had different things but in the United different things but in the United different things but in the United States it was probably the Apple 2 made States it was probably the Apple 2 made States it was probably the Apple 2 made the most impact for a lot of programmers the most impact for a lot of programmers the most impact for a lot of programmers of my generation but so I was really of my generation but so I was really of my generation but so I was really digging into the IBM and this was even digging into the IBM and this was even digging into the IBM and this was even more so with the total focus because I more so with the total focus because I more so with the total focus because I had moved to another city where I didn't had moved to another city where I didn't had moved to another city where I didn't know anybody that I wasn't working with know anybody that I wasn't working with know anybody that I wasn't working with uh I had a little apartment and then at uh I had a little apartment and then at uh I had a little apartment and then at soft disk again the things that that soft disk again the things that that soft disk again the things that that Drew me to it I had a couple programmers Drew me to it I had a couple programmers Drew me to it I had a couple programmers that knew more than I did uh and they that knew more than I did uh and they that knew more than I did uh and they had a library they had a set of books had a library they had a set of books had a library they had a set of books and a set of magazines they had a couple and a set of magazines they had a couple and a set of magazines they had a couple years of magazines the old Dr Do's years of magazines the old Dr Do's years of magazines the old Dr Do's journal and all of these magazines that journal and all of these magazines that journal and all of these magazines that had information about things and so had information about things and so had information about things and so I was just in total immersion mode it I was just in total immersion mode it I was just in total immersion mode it was eat breathe sleep computer was eat breathe sleep computer was eat breathe sleep computer programming particularly the IBM for programming particularly the IBM for programming particularly the IBM for everything that I was doing and I was everything that I was doing and I was everything that I was doing and I was digging into a lot of these low-level digging into a lot of these low-level digging into a lot of these low-level Hardware details that people weren't Hardware details that people weren't Hardware details that people weren't usually paying attention to the way the usually paying attention to the way the usually paying attention to the way the the IBM EG cards worked I which was fun the IBM EG cards worked I which was fun the IBM EG cards worked I which was fun for me I hadn't had experience with for me I hadn't had experience with for me I hadn't had experience with things at that level and back then you things at that level and back then you things at that level and back then you could get Hardware documentation just could get Hardware documentation just could get Hardware documentation just down at the register levels this is down at the register levels this is down at the register levels this is where the crtc register is is this is

where the crtc register is is this is where the crtc register is is this is how the the color registers work and how how the the color registers work and how how the the color registers work and how the different things are applied and the different things are applied and the different things are applied and they were designed for a certain reason they were designed for a certain reason they were designed for a certain reason they were designed for an application they were designed for an application they were designed for an application they were had an intended use in mind they were had an intended use in mind they were had an intended use in mind but I was starting to look at uh other but I was starting to look at uh other but I was starting to look at uh other ways that they could perhaps be ways that they could perhaps be ways that they could perhaps be exploited that they weren't initially exploited that they weren't initially exploited that they weren't initially intended for could you comment on like intended for could you comment on like intended for could you comment on like uh first of all what operating system uh first of all what operating system uh first of all what operating system was there what what instruction set was was there what what instruction set was was there what what instruction set was it like what what what are the what are it like what what what are the what are it like what what what are the what are we talking about so this was Dawson x86 we talking about so this was Dawson x86 we talking about so this was Dawson x86 so 16bit uh 8086 the two 86s were there so 16bit uh 8086 the two 86s were there so 16bit uh 8086 the two 86s were there and 386 existed they were rare uh we had and 386 existed they were rare uh we had and 386 existed they were rare uh we had a couple for our development systems but a couple for our development systems but a couple for our development systems but uh we were still targeting the more uh we were still targeting the more uh we were still targeting the more broad I it was all dos 16bit um none of broad I it was all dos 16bit um none of broad I it was all dos 16bit um none of this was kind of Doss extenders and this was kind of Doss extenders and this was kind of Doss extenders and things how different is it from the things how different is it from the things how different is it from the systems of today is it's kind of a systems of today is it's kind of a systems of today is it's kind of a precursor that's similar very little if precursor that's similar very little if precursor that's similar very little if you open up you open up you open up command. on or com on Windows you see command. on or com on Windows you see command. on or com on Windows you see some of the remnants of all of that but some of the remnants of all of that but some of the remnants of all of that but it was a different world it was the 640k it was a different world it was the 640k it was a different world it was the 640k is enough world and nothing was is enough world and nothing was is enough world and nothing was protected it crashed all the time you protected it crashed all the time you protected it crashed all the time you had tsrs or terminate and stay resident had tsrs or terminate and stay resident had tsrs or terminate and stay resident hacks on top of things that would cause hacks on top of things that would cause hacks on top of things that would cause configuration problems all the hardware configuration problems all the hardware configuration problems all the hardware was manually configured in your auto was manually configured in your auto was manually configured in your auto exac so it was a very different world exac so it was a very different world exac so it was a very different world but the code is still the same similar but the code is still the same similar but the code is still the same similar you would you could still write it my you would you could still write it my you would you could still write it my earliest code there was written in earliest code there was written in earliest code there was written in Pascal that was what I had learned I Pascal that was what I had learned I Pascal that was what I had learned I kind of at an earlier point so between kind of at an earlier point so between kind of at an earlier point so between basic and C++ there was Pascal so when basic and C++ there was Pascal so when basic and C++ there was Pascal so when basic Assembly Language uh some of my

basic Assembly Language uh some of my basic Assembly Language uh some of my yeah my intermediate stuff was well you yeah my intermediate stuff was well you yeah my intermediate stuff was well you had to for performance basic was just had to for performance basic was just had to for performance basic was just too slow so most of the work that I was too slow so most of the work that I was too slow so most of the work that I was doing as a contract programmer in my doing as a contract programmer in my doing as a contract programmer in my teenage years was uh was Assembly teenage years was uh was Assembly teenage years was uh was Assembly Language wait you wrote games in Language wait you wrote games in Language wait you wrote games in assembly yeah complete games in uh in assembly yeah complete games in uh in assembly yeah complete games in uh in Assembly Language and it's thousands and Assembly Language and it's thousands and Assembly Language and it's thousands and thousands of lines of three-letter thousands of lines of three-letter thousands of lines of three-letter acronyms for the the instructions that's acronyms for the the instructions that's acronyms for the the instructions that's you you don't earn the once again you you don't earn the once again you you don't earn the once again greatest programmer ever label without greatest programmer ever label without greatest programmer ever label without being able to WR a an assembly okay being able to WR a an assembly okay being able to WR a an assembly okay that's again everybody wrote their that's again everybody wrote their that's again everybody wrote their everybody serious wrote their games in everybody serious wrote their games in everybody serious wrote their games in Assembly Language it was kind of a Assembly Language it was kind of a Assembly Language it was kind of a everybody serious you see what he said everybody serious you see what he said everybody serious you see what he said everybody serious it was an outlier to everybody serious it was an outlier to everybody serious it was an outlier to use uh Pascal a little bit where there use uh Pascal a little bit where there use uh Pascal a little bit where there was one famous program called Wizardry was one famous program called Wizardry was one famous program called Wizardry it was like one of the great early role it was like one of the great early role it was like one of the great early role playing games that was written in Pascal playing games that was written in Pascal playing games that was written in Pascal but it was almost nothing used Pascal but it was almost nothing used Pascal but it was almost nothing used Pascal there but I did learn Pascal and I there but I did learn Pascal and I there but I did learn Pascal and I remember doing all of my like to this remember doing all of my like to this remember doing all of my like to this day I sketch in data structures when I'm day I sketch in data structures when I'm day I sketch in data structures when I'm thinking about something I'll you know thinking about something I'll you know thinking about something I'll you know I'll I'll open up a file and I'll start I'll I'll open up a file and I'll start I'll I'll open up a file and I'll start writing struct definitions for how data writing struct definitions for how data writing struct definitions for how data is going to be laid out and Pascal was is going to be laid out and Pascal was is going to be laid out and Pascal was kind of formative to that because I kind of formative to that because I kind of formative to that because I remember designing my RPGs in Pascal remember designing my RPGs in Pascal remember designing my RPGs in Pascal record structures and things like that record structures and things like that record structures and things like that and so I had uh gotten a pascal compiler and so I had uh gotten a pascal compiler and so I had uh gotten a pascal compiler for the Apple 2gs that I could work on for the Apple 2gs that I could work on for the Apple 2gs that I could work on in the first IBM game that I developed I in the first IBM game that I developed I in the first IBM game that I developed I did in Pascal and and that's actually did in Pascal and and that's actually did in Pascal and and that's actually kind of an interesting story again kind of an interesting story again kind of an interesting story again talking about the constraints and talking about the constraints and talking about the constraints and resources where I had an apple 2gs I resources where I had an apple 2gs I resources where I had an apple 2gs I didn't have an IBM PC I wanted to Port didn't have an IBM PC I wanted to Port didn't have an IBM PC I wanted to Port my applications to IBM because I thought

my applications to IBM because I thought my applications to IBM because I thought I could make more money on it so what I I could make more money on it so what I I could make more money on it so what I wound up doing is I rented a PC for a wound up doing is I rented a PC for a wound up doing is I rented a PC for a week uh and bought a copy of Turbo week uh and bought a copy of Turbo week uh and bought a copy of Turbo Pascal and so I had a hard one week and Pascal and so I had a hard one week and Pascal and so I had a hard one week and this was cutting into what minimal this was cutting into what minimal this was cutting into what minimal profit margin I had there but I had this profit margin I had there but I had this profit margin I had there but I had this computer for a week I had to get my computer for a week I had to get my computer for a week I had to get my program ported before I had to return program ported before I had to return program ported before I had to return the PC yeah and that was kind of what the PC yeah and that was kind of what the PC yeah and that was kind of what the first thing that I had done on the the first thing that I had done on the the first thing that I had done on the IBM PC and what led me to the taking the IBM PC and what led me to the taking the IBM PC and what led me to the taking the job at soft disk and turbo Pascal job at soft disk and turbo Pascal job at soft disk and turbo Pascal how's that different from regular Pasco how's that different from regular Pasco how's that different from regular Pasco is a different compiler or something is a different compiler or something is a different compiler or something like that so it was uh it was a product like that so it was uh it was a product like that so it was uh it was a product of Borland which before Microsoft kind of Borland which before Microsoft kind of Borland which before Microsoft kind of killed them they were they were the of killed them they were they were the of killed them they were they were the Hot Stuff developer tools company yeah Hot Stuff developer tools company yeah Hot Stuff developer tools company yeah had Borland turbo Pascal and turbo C and had Borland turbo Pascal and turbo C and had Borland turbo Pascal and turbo C and turbo prologue I mean all the different turbo prologue I mean all the different turbo prologue I mean all the different things but what they did was they took a things but what they did was they took a things but what they did was they took a supremely pragmatic approach of making supremely pragmatic approach of making supremely pragmatic approach of making something useful it was one of these something useful it was one of these something useful it was one of these great examples where Pascal was an great examples where Pascal was an great examples where Pascal was an academic language and you had things academic language and you had things academic language and you had things like the ucdp system that Wizardry was like the ucdp system that Wizardry was like the ucdp system that Wizardry was actually written in that they did they actually written in that they did they actually written in that they did they did manage to make a game with that but did manage to make a game with that but did manage to make a game with that but it was not a super practical system it was not a super practical system it was not a super practical system while turbo Pascal was it was called while turbo Pascal was it was called while turbo Pascal was it was called turbo because it was blazingly fast to turbo because it was blazingly fast to turbo because it was blazingly fast to compile I mean really ridiculously 10 to compile I mean really ridiculously 10 to compile I mean really ridiculously 10 to 20 times faster than most other 20 times faster than most other 20 times faster than most other compilers at the time but it also had compilers at the time but it also had compilers at the time but it also had very pragmatic access to look you can very pragmatic access to look you can very pragmatic access to look you can just poke at the hardware in these just poke at the hardware in these just poke at the hardware in these different ways and we have libraries different ways and we have libraries different ways and we have libraries that let you do things and it was a that let you do things and it was a that let you do things and it was a pretty good it was a perfectly good way pretty good it was a perfectly good way pretty good it was a perfectly good way to write games and this is one of those to write games and this is one of those to write games and this is one of those things where people have talked about

things where people have talked about things where people have talked about different paths that computer different paths that computer different paths that computer development could have taken where C development could have taken where C development could have taken where C took over the world for uh reasons that took over the world for uh reasons that took over the world for uh reasons that came out of Unix and eventually Linux came out of Unix and eventually Linux came out of Unix and eventually Linux and and that was not a foregone and and that was not a foregone and and that was not a foregone conclusion at all and people can make conclusion at all and people can make conclusion at all and people can make real reasoned rational arguments that real reasoned rational arguments that real reasoned rational arguments that the world might have been better if it the world might have been better if it the world might have been better if it had gone a pascal route I'm somewhat had gone a pascal route I'm somewhat had gone a pascal route I'm somewhat agnostic on that where I do know from agnostic on that where I do know from agnostic on that where I do know from experience it was perfectly good enough experience it was perfectly good enough experience it was perfectly good enough to do uh do that and it had some to do uh do that and it had some to do uh do that and it had some fundamental improvements like had range fundamental improvements like had range fundamental improvements like had range checked arrays as an option there which checked arrays as an option there which checked arrays as an option there which could avoid many of C's real hazards could avoid many of C's real hazards could avoid many of C's real hazards that happened in a security space but C1 that happened in a security space but C1 that happened in a security space but C1 they were basically operating at about they were basically operating at about they were basically operating at about the same level of abstraction it was a the same level of abstraction it was a the same level of abstraction it was a systems programming language but but you systems programming language but but you systems programming language but but you said Pascal had more emphasis on data said Pascal had more emphasis on data said Pascal had more emphasis on data structures I actually I um in the in the structures I actually I um in the in the structures I actually I um in the in the tree of languages did Pascal come before tree of languages did Pascal come before tree of languages did Pascal come before c did it they were pretty c did it they were pretty c did it they were pretty contemporaneous so Pascal's lineage went contemporaneous so Pascal's lineage went contemporaneous so Pascal's lineage went to modula 2 and eventually over on which to modula 2 and eventually over on which to modula 2 and eventually over on which was another nichas word um uh kind of was another nichas word um uh kind of was another nichas word um uh kind of experimental language but they were all experimental language but they were all experimental language but they were all good enough at that level now some of good enough at that level now some of good enough at that level now some of the classic academic oriented pascals the classic academic oriented pascals the classic academic oriented pascals were just missing fundamental things were just missing fundamental things were just missing fundamental things like oh you can't access this core like oh you can't access this core like oh you can't access this core system thing because we're just using it system thing because we're just using it system thing because we're just using it to teach students but uh turbo Pascal to teach students but uh turbo Pascal to teach students but uh turbo Pascal showed that only modest changes to it showed that only modest changes to it showed that only modest changes to it really did make it a completely capable really did make it a completely capable really did make it a completely capable language and it had some reasons why you language and it had some reasons why you language and it had some reasons why you could implement it as a single pass could implement it as a single pass could implement it as a single pass compiler so it could be way way faster compiler so it could be way way faster compiler so it could be way way faster although less scope for optimizations if although less scope for optimizations if although less scope for optimizations if you do it that way uh and it did have

you do it that way uh and it did have you do it that way uh and it did have some range checking options it had a some range checking options it had a some range checking options it had a little bit better typing capability little bit better typing capability little bit better typing capability you'd have properly typed enum sorts of you'd have properly typed enum sorts of you'd have properly typed enum sorts of things and other stuff that c lacked but things and other stuff that c lacked but things and other stuff that c lacked but you know C was also clearly good enough you know C was also clearly good enough you know C was also clearly good enough and it wound up with a huge inertia from and it wound up with a huge inertia from and it wound up with a huge inertia from the Unix ecosystem and everything with the Unix ecosystem and everything with the Unix ecosystem and everything with that garbage collection no it was not that garbage collection no it was not that garbage collection no it was not garbage collected same kind of thing garbage collected same kind of thing garbage collected same kind of thing same manual so you could still have your same manual so you could still have your same manual so you could still have your use after freeze and all those other use after freeze and all those other use after freeze and all those other problems but over um just getting rid of problems but over um just getting rid of problems but over um just getting rid of array over runs at least if you were array over runs at least if you were array over runs at least if you were compiled with that debugging option compiled with that debugging option compiled with that debugging option certainly would have avoided a lot of certainly would have avoided a lot of certainly would have avoided a lot of problems and could have a lot of problems and could have a lot of problems and could have a lot of benefits but so anyways that was the benefits but so anyways that was the benefits but so anyways that was the next thing I had to learn C because C next thing I had to learn C because C next thing I had to learn C because C was where it seemed like most of the was where it seemed like most of the was where it seemed like most of the most of the things were going so I most of the things were going so I most of the things were going so I abandoned Pascal and I started working abandoned Pascal and I started working abandoned Pascal and I started working Inc I started hacking on these Hardware Inc I started hacking on these Hardware Inc I started hacking on these Hardware things dealing with uh you know the things dealing with uh you know the things dealing with uh you know the graphics controllers and the EG systems graphics controllers and the EG systems graphics controllers and the EG systems and what we most wanted to do so at that and what we most wanted to do so at that and what we most wanted to do so at that time we had uh we were sitting in our time we had uh we were sitting in our time we had uh we were sitting in our darkened office playing all the darkened office playing all the darkened office playing all the different console video games we were different console video games we were different console video games we were figuring out what do we want to kind of figuring out what do we want to kind of figuring out what do we want to kind of what games do we want to make for a what games do we want to make for a what games do we want to make for a Gamers Edge product there and so we had Gamers Edge product there and so we had Gamers Edge product there and so we had one of the one of the first Super one of the one of the first Super one of the one of the first Super Nintendos sitting there and we had a an Nintendos sitting there and we had a an Nintendos sitting there and we had a an older Nintendo we were looking at all older Nintendo we were looking at all older Nintendo we were looking at all those games and the core thing that those games and the core thing that those games and the core thing that those consoles did that you just didn't those consoles did that you just didn't those consoles did that you just didn't get on the PC games was this ability to get on the PC games was this ability to get on the PC games was this ability to have a massive scrolling world where have a massive scrolling world where have a massive scrolling world where most of the games that you would make on most of the games that you would make on most of the games that you would make on the PC uh and early earlier personal the PC uh and early earlier personal the PC uh and early earlier personal computers would be a static screen you computers would be a static screen you computers would be a static screen you move little things around on it move little things around on it move little things around on it and you interact like that maybe you go and you interact like that maybe you go and you interact like that maybe you go to additional screens as you know as you

to additional screens as you know as you to additional screens as you know as you move but arcade games and consoles had move but arcade games and consoles had move but arcade games and consoles had this wonderful ability to just have a this wonderful ability to just have a this wonderful ability to just have a big world that you're slowly moving your big world that you're slowly moving your big world that you're slowly moving your window through and that was for those window through and that was for those window through and that was for those types of games the kind of action types of games the kind of action types of games the kind of action exploration adventure games that was a exploration adventure games that was a exploration adventure games that was a super super important thing and PC games super super important thing and PC games super super important thing and PC games just didn't do that and what I had had just didn't do that and what I had had just didn't do that and what I had had come across was a couple different come across was a couple different come across was a couple different techniques for implementing that on the techniques for implementing that on the techniques for implementing that on the PC and they're not hard complicated PC and they're not hard complicated PC and they're not hard complicated things when I explain them now they're things when I explain them now they're things when I explain them now they're they they're pretty straightforward but they they're pretty straightforward but they they're pretty straightforward but just nobody was doing you sound like just nobody was doing you sound like just nobody was doing you sound like Einstein describing his five papers is Einstein describing his five papers is Einstein describing his five papers is pretty straightforward I understand but pretty straightforward I understand but pretty straightforward I understand but it they're nevertheless Revolution so it they're nevertheless Revolution so it they're nevertheless Revolution so size scrolling is a game changer yeah size scrolling is a game changer yeah size scrolling is a game changer yeah and scrolling genus hyr vertical and and scrolling genus hyr vertical and and scrolling genus hyr vertical and some of the consoles had different some of the consoles had different some of the consoles had different limitations about you could do one but limitations about you could do one but limitations about you could do one but not the other and I and there were not the other and I and there were not the other and I and there were similar things going on as advancements similar things going on as advancements similar things going on as advancements even in the console space where you'd even in the console space where you'd even in the console space where you'd have like the original Mario game was uh have like the original Mario game was uh have like the original Mario game was uh like just horizontal scrolling and then like just horizontal scrolling and then like just horizontal scrolling and then later Mario games added vertical aspects later Mario games added vertical aspects later Mario games added vertical aspects to it and different things that uh that to it and different things that uh that to it and different things that uh that you were doing to explore you know kind you were doing to explore you know kind you were doing to explore you know kind of expand the capabilities there and so of expand the capabilities there and so of expand the capabilities there and so much of the early game design for much of the early game design for much of the early game design for decades was removing limitations letting decades was removing limitations letting decades was removing limitations letting you do things that you envisioned as a you do things that you envisioned as a you do things that you envisioned as a designer you wanted the player to designer you wanted the player to designer you wanted the player to experience but the hardware just experience but the hardware just experience but the hardware just couldn't really uh or you didn't know couldn't really uh or you didn't know couldn't really uh or you didn't know how to make it happen it felt impossible how to make it happen it felt impossible how to make it happen it felt impossible you can imagine that you want to create you can imagine that you want to create you can imagine that you want to create a like this big world through which you a like this big world through which you a like this big world through which you can size scroll like through which you can size scroll like through which you can size scroll like through which you can walk uh and then you ask yourself a

can walk uh and then you ask yourself a can walk uh and then you ask yourself a question how do I actually build that in question how do I actually build that in question how do I actually build that in a way that's uh like the the latency is a way that's uh like the the latency is a way that's uh like the the latency is low enough uh the hardware can actually low enough uh the hardware can actually low enough uh the hardware can actually deliver that in such a way that it's a deliver that in such a way that it's a deliver that in such a way that it's a compelling experience and we knew what compelling experience and we knew what compelling experience and we knew what we wanted to do because we were we were we wanted to do because we were we were we wanted to do because we were we were playing all of these console games playing all of these console games playing all of these console games playing all these Nintendo games and playing all these Nintendo games and playing all these Nintendo games and arcade games clearly there is a whole arcade games clearly there is a whole arcade games clearly there is a whole world of awesome things there that we world of awesome things there that we world of awesome things there that we just couldn't do on the PC at least just couldn't do on the PC at least just couldn't do on the PC at least initially uh because every programmer initially uh because every programmer initially uh because every programmer can tell it's like if you want to scroll can tell it's like if you want to scroll can tell it's like if you want to scroll you can just redraw the whole screen but you can just redraw the whole screen but you can just redraw the whole screen but then it turns out well you're going five then it turns out well you're going five then it turns out well you're going five frames per second I that's not an frames per second I that's not an frames per second I that's not an interactive fun experience you want to interactive fun experience you want to interactive fun experience you want to be going 30 or 60 frames per second or be going 30 or 60 frames per second or be going 30 or 60 frames per second or something and it just didn't feel like something and it just didn't feel like something and it just didn't feel like that was possible it felt like the PCS that was possible it felt like the PCS that was possible it felt like the PCS had to get five times faster for you to had to get five times faster for you to had to get five times faster for you to make a playable game there and make a playable game there and make a playable game there and interestingly I wound up with two interestingly I wound up with two interestingly I wound up with two completely different solutions for the completely different solutions for the completely different solutions for the scrolling problem and this is I this is scrolling problem and this is I this is scrolling problem and this is I this is a theme that runs through everything a theme that runs through everything a theme that runs through everything where all of these big technical where all of these big technical where all of these big technical advancements it turns out there's always advancements it turns out there's always advancements it turns out there's always a couple different ways of doing them a couple different ways of doing them a couple different ways of doing them and it's not like you found the one true and it's not like you found the one true and it's not like you found the one true way of doing it and we'll see this as we way of doing it and we'll see this as we way of doing it and we'll see this as we go into 3D games and things later but so go into 3D games and things later but so go into 3D games and things later but so the scrolling the first set of scrolling the scrolling the first set of scrolling the scrolling the first set of scrolling tricks that I got was there was the tricks that I got was there was the tricks that I got was there was the hardware had this ability to uh you hardware had this ability to uh you hardware had this ability to uh you could shift like inside the window of could shift like inside the window of could shift like inside the window of memory um so the EGA cards at the time memory um so the EGA cards at the time memory um so the EGA cards at the time had 256 kilobytes of memory and it was had 256 kilobytes of memory and it was had 256 kilobytes of memory and it was awkwardly set up in this planer format awkwardly set up in this planer format awkwardly set up in this planer format where uh instead of having 256 or you

where uh instead of having 256 or you where uh instead of having 256 or you know 24 million colors you had 16 colors know 24 million colors you had 16 colors know 24 million colors you had 16 colors which is four bits so you had four bit which is four bits so you had four bit which is four bits so you had four bit planes 64k a piece of course 64k is a planes 64k a piece of course 64k is a planes 64k a piece of course 64k is a nice round number for 16bit addressing nice round number for 16bit addressing nice round number for 16bit addressing so your graphics card had a 16bit window so your graphics card had a 16bit window so your graphics card had a 16bit window that you could look at and you could that you could look at and you could that you could look at and you could tell it to start the video scan out tell it to start the video scan out tell it to start the video scan out anywhere inside there so there were a anywhere inside there so there were a anywhere inside there so there were a couple games that had taken this couple games that had taken this couple games that had taken this approach of you could make a two 2 x two approach of you could make a two 2 x two approach of you could make a two 2 x two screen or a 1x4 screen and you could do screen or a 1x4 screen and you could do screen or a 1x4 screen and you could do scrolling really easily like that you scrolling really easily like that you scrolling really easily like that you could just lay it all out and just pan could just lay it all out and just pan could just lay it all out and just pan around there but you just couldn't make around there but you just couldn't make around there but you just couldn't make it any bigger because that's all the it any bigger because that's all the it any bigger because that's all the memory that was there uh the first memory that was there uh the first memory that was there uh the first insight to the scrolling that I had was insight to the scrolling that I had was insight to the scrolling that I had was well if we make a screen that's just one well if we make a screen that's just one well if we make a screen that's just one tile larger you know and the we usually tile larger you know and the we usually tile larger you know and the we usually had tiles that were 16 pixels by 16 had tiles that were 16 pixels by 16 had tiles that were 16 pixels by 16 pixels the little classic Mario block pixels the little classic Mario block pixels the little classic Mario block that you run into lots of art gets drawn that you run into lots of art gets drawn that you run into lots of art gets drawn that way and your screen is a certain that way and your screen is a certain that way and your screen is a certain number of tiles but if you had one number of tiles but if you had one number of tiles but if you had one little buffer region uh outside of that little buffer region uh outside of that little buffer region uh outside of that you could easily pan around inside that you could easily pan around inside that you could easily pan around inside that 16 pixel region and that could be 16 pixel region and that could be 16 pixel region and that could be perfectly smooth but then what happens perfectly smooth but then what happens perfectly smooth but then what happens if you get to the edge and you want to if you get to the edge and you want to if you get to the edge and you want to keep going the first way we did keep going the first way we did keep going the first way we did scrolling was what I called adaptive scrolling was what I called adaptive scrolling was what I called adaptive tile refresh which was really just a tile refresh which was really just a tile refresh which was really just a matter of you get to the edge and then matter of you get to the edge and then matter of you get to the edge and then you go back to the original point and you go back to the original point and you go back to the original point and then only change the tiles that have then only change the tiles that have then only change the tiles that have actually that are different between actually that are different between actually that are different between where it was in most of the games at the where it was in most of the games at the where it was in most of the games at the time time if you think about sort of time time if you think about sort of time time if you think about sort of your classic Super Mario Brothers game your classic Super Mario Brothers game your classic Super Mario Brothers game you've got big fields of Blue Sky uh

you've got big fields of Blue Sky uh you've got big fields of Blue Sky uh long rows of the same brick texture um long rows of the same brick texture um long rows of the same brick texture um and there's a lot of commonality it's and there's a lot of commonality it's and there's a lot of commonality it's kind of like a data compression thing if kind of like a data compression thing if kind of like a data compression thing if you take the screen and you set it down you take the screen and you set it down you take the screen and you set it down on top of each other in general only on top of each other in general only on top of each other in general only about 10% of the tiles were actually about 10% of the tiles were actually about 10% of the tiles were actually different there so this was a way to go different there so this was a way to go different there so this was a way to go ahead and say well I'm going to move it ahead and say well I'm going to move it ahead and say well I'm going to move it back and then I'm only going to change back and then I'm only going to change back and then I'm only going to change those 10 20 uh whatever percent tiles those 10 20 uh whatever percent tiles those 10 20 uh whatever percent tiles there and that meant that it was there and that meant that it was there and that meant that it was essentially five times faster than if essentially five times faster than if essentially five times faster than if you were redrawing all of the tiles and you were redrawing all of the tiles and you were redrawing all of the tiles and that worked well enough for us to do a that worked well enough for us to do a that worked well enough for us to do a bunch of these games for uh for Gamers bunch of these games for uh for Gamers bunch of these games for uh for Gamers Edge we had a lot of these scrolling Edge we had a lot of these scrolling Edge we had a lot of these scrolling games like SLX and Shadow Knights and games like SLX and Shadow Knights and games like SLX and Shadow Knights and things like that that we were cranking things like that that we were cranking things like that that we were cranking out at this High rate that had this out at this High rate that had this out at this High rate that had this scrolling effect on it and it worked scrolling effect on it and it worked scrolling effect on it and it worked well enough there were design challenges well enough there were design challenges well enough there were design challenges there where if you made the worst case there where if you made the worst case there where if you made the worst case if you made a checkerboard over the if you made a checkerboard over the if you made a checkerboard over the entire screen you scroll over one and entire screen you scroll over one and entire screen you scroll over one and every single tile Chang es and your every single tile Chang es and your every single tile Chang es and your frame rate's now five frames per second frame rate's now five frames per second frame rate's now five frames per second because it had to redraw everything so because it had to redraw everything so because it had to redraw everything so the designers had a little bit that they the designers had a little bit that they the designers had a little bit that they had to worry about they had to make had to worry about they had to make had to worry about they had to make these relatively plain looking levels these relatively plain looking levels these relatively plain looking levels but it was still pretty magical it was but it was still pretty magical it was but it was still pretty magical it was something that we hadn't seen before and something that we hadn't seen before and something that we hadn't seen before and uh the first thing that we wound up uh the first thing that we wound up uh the first thing that we wound up doing with that was I had just gotten doing with that was I had just gotten doing with that was I had just gotten this working and Tom Hall was sitting this working and Tom Hall was sitting this working and Tom Hall was sitting there with me and we were looking over there with me and we were looking over there with me and we were looking over at our Super Nintendo on the side there at our Super Nintendo on the side there at our Super Nintendo on the side there with Super Mario 3 running and we had with Super Mario 3 running and we had with Super Mario 3 running and we had the technology we had the tools set up the technology we had the tools set up the technology we had the tools set up there and we stayed up all night and we there and we stayed up all night and we there and we stayed up all night and we basically cloned the first level of basically cloned the first level of basically cloned the first level of Super Mario Brothers performance- wise

Super Mario Brothers performance- wise Super Mario Brothers performance- wise as well yeah and so it and we had our as well yeah and so it and we had our as well yeah and so it and we had our little character running and jumping in little character running and jumping in little character running and jumping in there it was you know it wasn't uh it there it was you know it wasn't uh it there it was you know it wasn't uh it was close to pixel accurate as far as was close to pixel accurate as far as was close to pixel accurate as far as all the uh the backgrounds and all the uh the backgrounds and all the uh the backgrounds and everything but the gaming was just stuff everything but the gaming was just stuff everything but the gaming was just stuff that we cobbled together from previous that we cobbled together from previous that we cobbled together from previous games that I had written I just kind of games that I had written I just kind of games that I had written I just kind of like really kit bash the whole thing like really kit bash the whole thing like really kit bash the whole thing together to make this demo and that was together to make this demo and that was together to make this demo and that was one of the rare cases when I said I I one of the rare cases when I said I I one of the rare cases when I said I I don't usually do these allight don't usually do these allight don't usually do these allight programming things there's probably only programming things there's probably only programming things there's probably only two memorable ones that I can think two memorable ones that I can think two memorable ones that I can think about you know one was the all nighter about you know one was the all nighter about you know one was the all nighter to go ahead and get um to get our to go ahead and get um to get our to go ahead and get um to get our dangerous Dave and copyright dangerous Dave and copyright dangerous Dave and copyright infringement is how we titled it because infringement is how we titled it because infringement is how we titled it because we had a game called Dangerous Dave was we had a game called Dangerous Dave was we had a game called Dangerous Dave was you know running around with a shotgun you know running around with a shotgun you know running around with a shotgun shooting things uh and we were just shooting things uh and we were just shooting things uh and we were just taking our most beloved game at the time taking our most beloved game at the time taking our most beloved game at the time there the Super Mario 3 and sort of there the Super Mario 3 and sort of there the Super Mario 3 and sort of sticking Dave inside that with this new sticking Dave inside that with this new sticking Dave inside that with this new scrolling technology that was going scrolling technology that was going scrolling technology that was going perfectly smooth for I am you know for perfectly smooth for I am you know for perfectly smooth for I am you know for the the the uh as it ran and Tom and I just kind of uh as it ran and Tom and I just kind of uh as it ran and Tom and I just kind of blury the next morning you know kind of blury the next morning you know kind of blury the next morning you know kind of left and we left a disc on I you know on left and we left a disc on I you know on left and we left a disc on I you know on the desk for John Romero and Jay Wilbur the desk for John Romero and Jay Wilbur the desk for John Romero and Jay Wilbur to see and just said run this and we to see and just said run this and we to see and just said run this and we eventually made it back in later in the eventually made it back in later in the eventually made it back in later in the day and it was you know like they day and it was you know like they day and it was you know like they grabbed us and pulled us in you know grabbed us and pulled us in you know grabbed us and pulled us in you know pulled us into the room and that was the pulled us into the room and that was the pulled us into the room and that was the point where they were like we got to do point where they were like we got to do point where they were like we got to do something with this you know we're we're something with this you know we're we're something with this you know we're we're gonna make a company we're gonna go make gonna make a company we're gonna go make gonna make a company we're gonna go make our own games where this was something our own games where this was something our own games where this was something that we we were able to just kind of hit that we we were able to just kind of hit that we we were able to just kind of hit them with a hammer of an experience like them with a hammer of an experience like them with a hammer of an experience like wow this is just like so much cooler wow this is just like so much cooler wow this is just like so much cooler than what we thought was possible there than what we thought was possible there than what we thought was possible there and initially we tried to get Nintendo

and initially we tried to get Nintendo and initially we tried to get Nintendo to to let us make Super Mario 3 on the to to let us make Super Mario 3 on the to to let us make Super Mario 3 on the PC that's really what we wanted to do PC that's really what we wanted to do PC that's really what we wanted to do we're were like hey we can finish this we're were like hey we can finish this we're were like hey we can finish this it's line of sight for this will be it's line of sight for this will be it's line of sight for this will be great and we sent something to Nintendo great and we sent something to Nintendo great and we sent something to Nintendo and we heard that it did get looked at and we heard that it did get looked at and we heard that it did get looked at in Japan uh and they just weren't in Japan uh and they just weren't in Japan uh and they just weren't interested in that uh but that's another interested in that uh but that's another interested in that uh but that's another one of those life could have gone a very one of those life could have gone a very one of those life could have gone a very different way where we could have been different way where we could have been different way where we could have been like Nintendo's house PC team you know like Nintendo's house PC team you know like Nintendo's house PC team you know at that point and Define the direction at that point and Define the direction at that point and Define the direction of you know of you know of you know uh Wolfenstein and uh doom and Quake uh Wolfenstein and uh doom and Quake uh Wolfenstein and uh doom and Quake could have been a Nintendo creation yeah could have been a Nintendo creation yeah could have been a Nintendo creation yeah so at the same time that we were just so at the same time that we were just so at the same time that we were just doing our first scrolling demos I we doing our first scrolling demos I we doing our first scrolling demos I we reached out to Scott Miller at appy and reached out to Scott Miller at appy and reached out to Scott Miller at appy and said it's like hey we do want to make said it's like hey we do want to make said it's like hey we do want to make some games you know these things that some games you know these things that some games you know these things that you think you want those are those are you think you want those are those are you think you want those are those are nothing what do you see what we can nothing what do you see what we can nothing what do you see what we can actually do now this is going to be actually do now this is going to be actually do now this is going to be amazing and he just like popped right up amazing and he just like popped right up amazing and he just like popped right up and sent a check to us where we at that and sent a check to us where we at that and sent a check to us where we at that point we still thought he might be a point we still thought he might be a point we still thought he might be a fraud that he was just lying about all fraud that he was just lying about all fraud that he was just lying about all of this but he was totally correct on of this but he was totally correct on of this but he was totally correct on how much money he was making with his how much money he was making with his how much money he was making with his shareware titles and this was his his shareware titles and this was his his shareware titles and this was his his kind of real brainstorm about this where kind of real brainstorm about this where kind of real brainstorm about this where shareware was this idea that software shareware was this idea that software shareware was this idea that software doesn't have a fixed price if you use it doesn't have a fixed price if you use it doesn't have a fixed price if you use it you send out of the goodness of your you send out of the goodness of your you send out of the goodness of your heart some money to the Creator and heart some money to the Creator and heart some money to the Creator and there were a couple utilities that did there were a couple utilities that did there were a couple utilities that did make some significant success like that make some significant success like that make some significant success like that but for the most part it didn't really but for the most part it didn't really but for the most part it didn't really work you know there wasn't much software work you know there wasn't much software work you know there wasn't much software in a pure shareware model that uh that in a pure shareware model that uh that in a pure shareware model that uh that was successful The apog Innovation was

was successful The apog Innovation was was successful The apog Innovation was to take something call it shareware to take something call it shareware to take something call it shareware split it into three pieces you always split it into three pieces you always split it into three pieces you always made a Trilogy and you would put the made a Trilogy and you would put the made a Trilogy and you would put the first piece out but then you buy the first piece out but then you buy the first piece out but then you buy the whole trilogy for some shareware amount whole trilogy for some shareware amount whole trilogy for some shareware amount which in reality it meant that the first which in reality it meant that the first which in reality it meant that the first part was a demo where you kind of like part was a demo where you kind of like part was a demo where you kind of like the demo went everywhere for free and the demo went everywhere for free and the demo went everywhere for free and you paid money to to get the whole set you paid money to to get the whole set you paid money to to get the whole set but it was still played as shareware and but it was still played as shareware and but it was still played as shareware and we were happy to have the first one go we were happy to have the first one go we were happy to have the first one go everywhere and it wasn't a crippled demo everywhere and it wasn't a crippled demo everywhere and it wasn't a crippled demo where the first episode of all these where the first episode of all these where the first episode of all these trilogies it was a real complete game trilogies it was a real complete game trilogies it was a real complete game and probably 20 times as many people and probably 20 times as many people and probably 20 times as many people played that part of it thought they had played that part of it thought they had played that part of it thought they had a great game had found fond memories of a great game had found fond memories of a great game had found fond memories of it but never paid us a dime but enough it but never paid us a dime but enough it but never paid us a dime but enough people were happy with that where it was people were happy with that where it was people were happy with that where it was really quite successful and these early really quite successful and these early really quite successful and these early games that we didn't think very much of games that we didn't think very much of games that we didn't think very much of compared to commercial quality games but compared to commercial quality games but compared to commercial quality games but they were doing really good business they were doing really good business they were doing really good business some fairly crude things and people it some fairly crude things and people it some fairly crude things and people it was good business people enjoyed it and was good business people enjoyed it and was good business people enjoyed it and it wasn't like you were taking a it wasn't like you were taking a it wasn't like you were taking a crapshoot on what you were getting you crapshoot on what you were getting you crapshoot on what you were getting you just played a third of the experience just played a third of the experience just played a third of the experience and you loved it enough to hand write and you loved it enough to hand write and you loved it enough to hand write out a check and put it in an envelope out a check and put it in an envelope out a check and put it in an envelope and address it and send it out to apogee and address it and send it out to apogee and address it and send it out to apogee to uh to get the rest of them so it was to uh to get the rest of them so it was to uh to get the rest of them so it was a really pretty feel-good business a really pretty feel-good business a really pretty feel-good business prospect there because everybody was prospect there because everybody was prospect there because everybody was happy happy you know they knew what they happy happy you know they knew what they happy happy you know they knew what they were getting I when they send it in they were getting I when they send it in they were getting I when they send it in they would send in fan mail if you're going would send in fan mail if you're going would send in fan mail if you're going to the trouble of addressing a letter to the trouble of addressing a letter to the trouble of addressing a letter and I you know filling out an envelope and I you know filling out an envelope and I you know filling out an envelope you write something in it and there were you write something in it and there were you write something in it and there were just the literal bags of fan mail for just the literal bags of fan mail for just the literal bags of fan mail for the shareware um games so people loved

the shareware um games so people loved the shareware um games so people loved them I I should mention that for you the them I I should mention that for you the them I I should mention that for you the definition of wealth is being able to definition of wealth is being able to definition of wealth is being able to have pizza whenever you want for me have pizza whenever you want for me have pizza whenever you want for me there was a dream cuz I would play share there was a dream cuz I would play share there was a dream cuz I would play share War Games over and over the the part War Games over and over the the part War Games over and over the the part that's that's that's over and over and it was very deeply over and over and it was very deeply over and over and it was very deeply fulfilling experience but you know I I fulfilling experience but you know I I fulfilling experience but you know I I dreamed of a time where I could actually dreamed of a time where I could actually dreamed of a time where I could actually afford the full experience and this is afford the full experience and this is afford the full experience and this is kind of this Dreamland Beyond Beyond the kind of this Dreamland Beyond Beyond the kind of this Dreamland Beyond Beyond the Horizon when with you could you could Horizon when with you could you could Horizon when with you could you could find out what else is there in some find out what else is there in some find out what else is there in some sense even just playing the Sher sense even just playing the Sher sense even just playing the Sher whereare was um it's the limitation of whereare was um it's the limitation of whereare was um it's the limitation of that you know life is is limited that you know life is is limited that you know life is is limited eventually we all die in that way share eventually we all die in that way share eventually we all die in that way share where it was where it was where it was like somehow really fulfilling to have like somehow really fulfilling to have like somehow really fulfilling to have this kind of mysterious thing Beyond this kind of mysterious thing Beyond this kind of mysterious thing Beyond what's free or was there it's kind of I what's free or was there it's kind of I what's free or was there it's kind of I don't know that was maybe it's because a don't know that was maybe it's because a don't know that was maybe it's because a part of my childhood is playing shw part of my childhood is playing shw part of my childhood is playing shw games that was a really fulfilling games that was a really fulfilling games that was a really fulfilling experience it's so interesting how that experience it's so interesting how that experience it's so interesting how that model still brought joy to so many model still brought joy to so many model still brought joy to so many people the 20x people that played it I people the 20x people that played it I people the 20x people that played it I felt very good about that and I would felt very good about that and I would felt very good about that and I would run into people it's like that would say run into people it's like that would say run into people it's like that would say oh I loved that game you know that you oh I loved that game you know that you oh I loved that game you know that you had early on command ke whatever and um had early on command ke whatever and um had early on command ke whatever and um and no they they meant just the first and no they they meant just the first and no they they meant just the first episode that they got to see everywhere episode that they got to see everywhere episode that they got to see everywhere play the crap out of and that was all play the crap out of and that was all play the crap out of and that was all that was all good yeah yeah but so we that was all good yeah yeah but so we that was all good yeah yeah but so we were in this position where Scott Miller were in this position where Scott Miller were in this position where Scott Miller was just fronting us cash and saying was just fronting us cash and saying was just fronting us cash and saying yeah make you know make a game but uh we

yeah make you know make a game but uh we yeah make you know make a game but uh we did not properly pull the trigger and did not properly pull the trigger and did not properly pull the trigger and say all right we're going to we're say all right we're going to we're say all right we're going to we're quitting our jobs we were like we're quitting our jobs we were like we're quitting our jobs we were like we're going to do both we're going to keep going to do both we're going to keep going to do both we're going to keep working at soft disk working on this and working at soft disk working on this and working at soft disk working on this and then we're going to go ahead and make a then we're going to go ahead and make a then we're going to go ahead and make a new game for apy at the same time and new game for apy at the same time and new game for apy at the same time and this eventually did lead to some legal this eventually did lead to some legal this eventually did lead to some legal problems and we had uh we had trouble it problems and we had uh we had trouble it problems and we had uh we had trouble it all got worked out in the end but it was all got worked out in the end but it was all got worked out in the end but it was not a good call at the time there and not a good call at the time there and not a good call at the time there and your legal mind at the time was not your legal mind at the time was not your legal mind at the time was not Stellar you you were not thinking uh in Stellar you you were not thinking uh in Stellar you you were not thinking uh in terms of in legal terms no I I terms of in legal terms no I I terms of in legal terms no I I definitely wasn't none of us were I and definitely wasn't none of us were I and definitely wasn't none of us were I and in hindsight yeah it's like how did we in hindsight yeah it's like how did we in hindsight yeah it's like how did we think we were going to get away with think we were going to get away with think we were going to get away with like even using our work computers to like even using our work computers to like even using our work computers to write uh write software for you know our write uh write software for you know our write uh write software for you know our our Breakaway uh new company it was not our Breakaway uh new company it was not our Breakaway uh new company it was not a good plan how did Commander keing come a good plan how did Commander keing come a good plan how did Commander keing come to be so the design process we would to be so the design process we would to be so the design process we would start from we had some idea of what we start from we had some idea of what we start from we had some idea of what we wanted to do we wanted to do a Mario wanted to do we wanted to do a Mario wanted to do we wanted to do a Mario like game it was going to be a like game it was going to be a like game it was going to be a sidescroller uh it was going to use the sidescroller uh it was going to use the sidescroller uh it was going to use the technology we we had some sense of what technology we we had some sense of what technology we we had some sense of what it would have to look like because of it would have to look like because of it would have to look like because of the limitations of this adaptive tile the limitations of this adaptive tile the limitations of this adaptive tile refresh technology it had to have fields refresh technology it had to have fields refresh technology it had to have fields of relatively constant tiles you of relatively constant tiles you of relatively constant tiles you couldn't just paint pain up a background couldn't just paint pain up a background couldn't just paint pain up a background and then move that around uh the early and then move that around uh the early and then move that around uh the early design or all the design for Commander design or all the design for Commander design or all the design for Commander Keane really came from Tom Hall where he Keane really came from Tom Hall where he Keane really came from Tom Hall where he was uh you know he was kind of the main was uh you know he was kind of the main was uh you know he was kind of the main creative mind for the the early ID creative mind for the the early ID creative mind for the the early ID software stuff where we had an software stuff where we had an software stuff where we had an interesting division of things where Tom interesting division of things where Tom interesting division of things where Tom was all creative in design I was all

was all creative in design I was all was all creative in design I was all programming John Romero was an programming John Romero was an programming John Romero was an interesting bridge where he was both a interesting bridge where he was both a interesting bridge where he was both a very good programmer and also a very very good programmer and also a very very good programmer and also a very good designer and artist and kind of good designer and artist and kind of good designer and artist and kind of straddled between the areas but straddled between the areas but straddled between the areas but Commander Keane was very much Tom Hall's Commander Keane was very much Tom Hall's Commander Keane was very much Tom Hall's baby and uh he came up with all the baby and uh he came up with all the baby and uh he came up with all the design and backstory for the different design and backstory for the different design and backstory for the different things of kind of a a mad scientist things of kind of a a mad scientist things of kind of a a mad scientist little kid with um you know building a a little kid with um you know building a a little kid with um you know building a a rocket ship and a zap gun and uh rocket ship and a zap gun and uh rocket ship and a zap gun and uh visiting alien worlds and doing all of visiting alien worlds and doing all of visiting alien worlds and doing all of this that the background that we lay the this that the background that we lay the this that the background that we lay the game inside of and there's not a whole game inside of and there's not a whole game inside of and there's not a whole lot to any of these things you know lot to any of these things you know lot to any of these things you know design for us was always just what we design for us was always just what we design for us was always just what we needed to do to make the game that was needed to do to make the game that was needed to do to make the game that was going to be so much fun to play going to be so much fun to play going to be so much fun to play and we made our we laid out our first and we made our we laid out our first and we made our we laid out our first Trilogy of games you know the shareware Trilogy of games you know the shareware Trilogy of games you know the shareware formula it's going to be three pieces we formula it's going to be three pieces we formula it's going to be three pieces we make Menor ke one two and three and we make Menor ke one two and three and we make Menor ke one two and three and we just really started uh busting on all just really started uh busting on all just really started uh busting on all that work and it went together really that work and it went together really that work and it went together really quickly it was like three months or quickly it was like three months or quickly it was like three months or something that while we were still something that while we were still something that while we were still making games every month for uh for making games every month for uh for making games every month for uh for Gamers Edge we were sharing technology Gamers Edge we were sharing technology Gamers Edge we were sharing technology between that I'd write a bunch of code between that I'd write a bunch of code between that I'd write a bunch of code for this and we just kind of use it for for this and we just kind of use it for for this and we just kind of use it for both uh again not a particularly good both uh again not a particularly good both uh again not a particularly good idea there that had consequences for us idea there that had consequences for us idea there that had consequences for us but in 3 months we got our first uh our but in 3 months we got our first uh our but in 3 months we got our first uh our first game out and all of a sudden it first game out and all of a sudden it first game out and all of a sudden it was three times as successful as the was three times as successful as the was three times as successful as the most successful thing apogee had had most successful thing apogee had had most successful thing apogee had had before and we were making like $30,000 a before and we were making like $30,000 a before and we were making like $30,000 a month IM immediately from the commander month IM immediately from the commander month IM immediately from the commander Kean stuff and that was again a surprise Kean stuff and that was again a surprise Kean stuff and that was again a surprise to us it was more than we thought that to us it was more than we thought that to us it was more than we thought that was going to uh that that was going to

was going to uh that that was going to was going to uh that that was going to make and we said well we're going to make and we said well we're going to make and we said well we're going to certainly roll into another set of certainly roll into another set of certainly roll into another set of titles from this and in that three titles from this and in that three titles from this and in that three months I had come up with a much better months I had come up with a much better months I had come up with a much better way of doing the scrolling technology way of doing the scrolling technology way of doing the scrolling technology that was not the Adaptive tile refresh that was not the Adaptive tile refresh that was not the Adaptive tile refresh which in some ways was even simpler and which in some ways was even simpler and which in some ways was even simpler and these things so many of the great ideas these things so many of the great ideas these things so many of the great ideas of Technology are things that are back of Technology are things that are back of Technology are things that are back of the envelope uh designs I make this of the envelope uh designs I make this of the envelope uh designs I make this comment about modern machine learning comment about modern machine learning comment about modern machine learning where all the things that are really where all the things that are really where all the things that are really important practically in the last decade important practically in the last decade important practically in the last decade are each of them fits on the back of an are each of them fits on the back of an are each of them fits on the back of an envelope there are these simple little envelope there are these simple little envelope there are these simple little things they're not super dense hard to things they're not super dense hard to things they're not super dense hard to understand uh Technologies and so the understand uh Technologies and so the understand uh Technologies and so the the second scrolling trick was just a the second scrolling trick was just a the second scrolling trick was just a matter of like okay we know we've got matter of like okay we know we've got matter of like okay we know we've got this 64k window and the question was this 64k window and the question was this 64k window and the question was always like well you could make a 2 by always like well you could make a 2 by always like well you could make a 2 by two but you can't go off the edge uh but two but you can't go off the edge uh but two but you can't go off the edge uh but I finally asked well what actually I finally asked well what actually I finally asked well what actually happens if you just go off the edge if happens if you just go off the edge if happens if you just go off the edge if you take your start and you say it's you take your start and you say it's you take your start and you say it's like okay I can move over I'm scrolling like okay I can move over I'm scrolling like okay I can move over I'm scrolling I can move over I can move down I'm I can move over I can move down I'm I can move over I can move down I'm scrolling I get to what should be the scrolling I get to what should be the scrolling I get to what should be the bottom of the memory window it's like bottom of the memory window it's like bottom of the memory window it's like well what if I just keep going and I say well what if I just keep going and I say well what if I just keep going and I say I'm going to start at I you know what I'm going to start at I you know what I'm going to start at I you know what happens if I start at ffe at the very happens if I start at ffe at the very happens if I start at ffe at the very end of the the 64k block and it turns end of the the 64k block and it turns end of the the 64k block and it turns out it just wraps back around to the top out it just wraps back around to the top out it just wraps back around to the top of the block and I'm like oh well this of the block and I'm like oh well this of the block and I'm like oh well this makes everything easy you can just makes everything easy you can just makes everything easy you can just scroll the screen everywhere and all you scroll the screen everywhere and all you scroll the screen everywhere and all you have to draw is just one new line of have to draw is just one new line of have to draw is just one new line of tiles which everything you expose it tiles which everything you expose it tiles which everything you expose it might be unaligned off various parts of

might be unaligned off various parts of might be unaligned off various parts of the uh of the screen memory but it just the uh of the screen memory but it just the uh of the screen memory but it just works that no longer had the problem of works that no longer had the problem of works that no longer had the problem of you had to have fields of the similar you had to have fields of the similar you had to have fields of the similar colors because you doesn't matter what colors because you doesn't matter what colors because you doesn't matter what you're doing you could be having a a you're doing you could be having a a you're doing you could be having a a completely unique world and you're just completely unique world and you're just completely unique world and you're just drawing the new strip as it comes on but drawing the new strip as it comes on but drawing the new strip as it comes on but it might be like you said unaligned so it might be like you said unaligned so it might be like you said unaligned so it can be all over the place and it it can be all over the place and it it can be all over the place and it turns out it doesn't matter I would have turns out it doesn't matter I would have turns out it doesn't matter I would have two page flipped screens as long as they two page flipped screens as long as they two page flipped screens as long as they didn't overlap they moved in series didn't overlap they moved in series didn't overlap they moved in series through this uh two-dimensional window through this uh two-dimensional window through this uh two-dimensional window of graphics and that was one of those of graphics and that was one of those of graphics and that was one of those like well this is so simple this just uh like well this is so simple this just uh like well this is so simple this just uh this just works it's faster um there it this just works it's faster um there it this just works it's faster um there it seemed like there was no downside funny seemed like there was no downside funny seemed like there was no downside funny thing was I it turned out after we thing was I it turned out after we thing was I it turned out after we shipped titles with this there were what shipped titles with this there were what shipped titles with this there were what they called uh super VGA cards the cards they called uh super VGA cards the cards they called uh super VGA cards the cards that would allow higher resolutions and that would allow higher resolutions and that would allow higher resolutions and I and different features that the I and different features that the I and different features that the standard ones didn't and on some of standard ones didn't and on some of standard ones didn't and on some of those cards uh this was a weird those cards uh this was a weird those cards uh this was a weird compatibility Quirk again because nobody compatibility Quirk again because nobody compatibility Quirk again because nobody thought this was not what it was thought this was not what it was thought this was not what it was designed to do and some of those cards designed to do and some of those cards designed to do and some of those cards had more memory they had more than just had more memory they had more than just had more memory they had more than just 256k in four planes they had 512k or a 256k in four planes they had 512k or a 256k in four planes they had 512k or a megabyte and on some of those cards I megabyte and on some of those cards I megabyte and on some of those cards I scroll my window down and then it goes scroll my window down and then it goes scroll my window down and then it goes into uninitialized memory that actually into uninitialized memory that actually into uninitialized memory that actually exists there rather than wrapping back exists there rather than wrapping back exists there rather than wrapping back around to the top and then I was in the around to the top and then I was in the around to the top and then I was in the tough position of do I have to track tough position of do I have to track tough position of do I have to track every single one of these and it was a every single one of these and it was a every single one of these and it was a mad house back then with there were 20 mad house back then with there were 20 mad house back then with there were 20 different video card vendors with all different video card vendors with all different video card vendors with all slightly different implementations of slightly different implementations of slightly different implementations of their non-standard functionality so

their non-standard functionality so their non-standard functionality so either I needed to natively program all either I needed to natively program all either I needed to natively program all of the the VGA cards there to map in of the the VGA cards there to map in of the the VGA cards there to map in that memory and keep scrolling down that memory and keep scrolling down that memory and keep scrolling down through all of that or I kind of punted through all of that or I kind of punted through all of that or I kind of punted and took the easy solution of when you and took the easy solution of when you and took the easy solution of when you finally did run to the edge of the finally did run to the edge of the finally did run to the edge of the screen I accepted a hitch and just screen I accepted a hitch and just screen I accepted a hitch and just copied the whole screen up there so on copied the whole screen up there so on copied the whole screen up there so on some of those uh those cards it was a some of those uh those cards it was a some of those uh those cards it was a compatibility mode in the normal ones compatibility mode in the normal ones compatibility mode in the normal ones when it all worked fine everything was when it all worked fine everything was when it all worked fine everything was just beautifully smooth but if you had just beautifully smooth but if you had just beautifully smooth but if you had one of those cards where it did not wrap one of those cards where it did not wrap one of those cards where it did not wrap the way I wanted it to you'd be the way I wanted it to you'd be the way I wanted it to you'd be scrolling around scrolling around and scrolling around scrolling around and scrolling around scrolling around and then eventually you'd have a little then eventually you'd have a little then eventually you'd have a little hitch where 200 Mill seconds or hitch where 200 Mill seconds or hitch where 200 Mill seconds or something that was not super smooth something that was not super smooth something that was not super smooth froze a little bit and then so it's a froze a little bit and then so it's a froze a little bit and then so it's a binary thing is it one of the standard binary thing is it one of the standard binary thing is it one of the standard screens or is it one of the weird ones screens or is it one of the weird ones screens or is it one of the weird ones the super VGA ones yeah okay and so we the super VGA ones yeah okay and so we the super VGA ones yeah okay and so we would default to and I think that was would default to and I think that was would default to and I think that was one of those that changed over the kind one of those that changed over the kind one of those that changed over the kind of course of deployment where early on of course of deployment where early on of course of deployment where early on we would have a normal mode and then you we would have a normal mode and then you we would have a normal mode and then you would have you would enable the would have you would enable the would have you would enable the compatibility flag if your screen did compatibility flag if your screen did compatibility flag if your screen did this crazy flickery thing when you got this crazy flickery thing when you got this crazy flickery thing when you got to a certain point in the game uh and to a certain point in the game uh and to a certain point in the game uh and then later I think it probably got then later I think it probably got then later I think it probably got enabled by default as just more and more enabled by default as just more and more enabled by default as just more and more of the cards it kind of did not do of the cards it kind of did not do of the cards it kind of did not do exactly the right thing and that's the exactly the right thing and that's the exactly the right thing and that's the two-edged sword of doing unconventional two-edged sword of doing unconventional two-edged sword of doing unconventional things with technology where you can things with technology where you can things with technology where you can find something that nobody thought about find something that nobody thought about find something that nobody thought about doing that kind of scrolling trick when doing that kind of scrolling trick when doing that kind of scrolling trick when they set up those cards uh but the fact they set up those cards uh but the fact they set up those cards uh but the fact that nobody thought that was the primary that nobody thought that was the primary that nobody thought that was the primary reason when I was relying on that then I reason when I was relying on that then I reason when I was relying on that then I wound up being broken on some of the wound up being broken on some of the wound up being broken on some of the later cards let me uh take a bit of a

later cards let me uh take a bit of a later cards let me uh take a bit of a tangent but tangent but tangent but uh ask you about the hacker ethic uh cuz uh ask you about the hacker ethic uh cuz uh ask you about the hacker ethic uh cuz you mentioned Sher where it's it's it's you mentioned Sher where it's it's it's you mentioned Sher where it's it's it's an interesting world the world of U an interesting world the world of U an interesting world the world of U people that make money the business and people that make money the business and people that make money the business and the people that build systems the the people that build systems the the people that build systems the engineers and um what is the ha hacker engineers and um what is the ha hacker engineers and um what is the ha hacker ethic you've been a man of the people ethic you've been a man of the people ethic you've been a man of the people and you've embodied at least the part of and you've embodied at least the part of and you've embodied at least the part of that ethic what does it mean what did it that ethic what does it mean what did it that ethic what does it mean what did it mean to you at the time what does it mean to you at the time what does it mean to you at the time what does it mean to you today so Steph Levy's book mean to you today so Steph Levy's book mean to you today so Steph Levy's book hackers was a really formative book for hackers was a really formative book for hackers was a really formative book for me uh as a teenager I mean read it me uh as a teenager I mean read it me uh as a teenager I mean read it several times and there was all of the several times and there was all of the several times and there was all of the great lore of the early MIT era of great lore of the early MIT era of great lore of the early MIT era of hackers and you know ending up at the hackers and you know ending up at the hackers and you know ending up at the end with it kind of went through the end with it kind of went through the end with it kind of went through the early MIT hackers and then the Silicon early MIT hackers and then the Silicon early MIT hackers and then the Silicon Valley hardware hackers and then uh the Valley hardware hackers and then uh the Valley hardware hackers and then uh the game hackers in part three and at that game hackers in part three and at that game hackers in part three and at that time as a teenager I really was kind of time as a teenager I really was kind of time as a teenager I really was kind of bitter in some ways it's like I thought bitter in some ways it's like I thought bitter in some ways it's like I thought I was born to late I thought I missed uh I was born to late I thought I missed uh I was born to late I thought I missed uh the window there and I really thought I the window there and I really thought I the window there and I really thought I belonged in that third section of that belonged in that third section of that belonged in that third section of that book with the game hackers and they were book with the game hackers and they were book with the game hackers and they were talking about you know the Williams at talking about you know the Williams at talking about you know the Williams at Sierra and origin systems with Richard Sierra and origin systems with Richard Sierra and origin systems with Richard garot and and it's like I really wanted garot and and it's like I really wanted garot and and it's like I really wanted to be there and I knew that was that was to be there and I knew that was that was to be there and I knew that was that was now a few years in the past it was I you now a few years in the past it was I you now a few years in the past it was I you know it was not to be but the early days know it was not to be but the early days know it was not to be but the early days especially the early MIT hacker days especially the early MIT hacker days especially the early MIT hacker days talking a lot about this sense of uh the

talking a lot about this sense of uh the talking a lot about this sense of uh the hacker ethic that there was this sense hacker ethic that there was this sense hacker ethic that there was this sense that it was about sharing information that it was about sharing information that it was about sharing information being good not keeping it to yourself being good not keeping it to yourself being good not keeping it to yourself and that it's not a zero sum game that and that it's not a zero sum game that and that it's not a zero sum game that you you know you can share something you you know you can share something you you know you can share something with another programmer and it doesn't with another programmer and it doesn't with another programmer and it doesn't take it away from you you know you you take it away from you you know you you take it away from you you know you you then have somebody else doing something then have somebody else doing something then have somebody else doing something and I also think that there's an aspect and I also think that there's an aspect and I also think that there's an aspect of it where it's this ability to to take of it where it's this ability to to take of it where it's this ability to to take joy in other people's accomplishments joy in other people's accomplishments joy in other people's accomplishments where it's not the Cutthroat bit of like where it's not the Cutthroat bit of like where it's not the Cutthroat bit of like I have to be first I have to be I have to be first I have to be I have to be first I have to be recognized as the the one that did this recognized as the the one that did this recognized as the the one that did this in some way but being able to see in some way but being able to see in some way but being able to see somebody else some do something and say somebody else some do something and say somebody else some do something and say holy that's amazing you know and holy that's amazing you know and holy that's amazing you know and just taking joy in the ability of just taking joy in the ability of just taking joy in the ability of something amazing that somebody else something amazing that somebody else something amazing that somebody else does and the the big thing that I was does and the the big thing that I was does and the the big thing that I was able to do through ID software was uh able to do through ID software was uh able to do through ID software was uh this ability to eventually release the this ability to eventually release the this ability to eventually release the source code for most of our like all of source code for most of our like all of source code for most of our like all of our really seminal game titles and that our really seminal game titles and that our really seminal game titles and that was a it was a stepping stone process was a it was a stepping stone process was a it was a stepping stone process where we were kind of surprised early on where we were kind of surprised early on where we were kind of surprised early on where uh people were able to hack the where uh people were able to hack the where uh people were able to hack the existing games and of course I had existing games and of course I had existing games and of course I had experience with that I remember hacking experience with that I remember hacking experience with that I remember hacking my copies of Ultima so I give myself you my copies of Ultima so I give myself you my copies of Ultima so I give myself you know 9999 gold and raise my levels and know 9999 gold and raise my levels and know 9999 gold and raise my levels and you know break out the sector editor and you know break out the sector editor and you know break out the sector editor and so I was familiar with all of that so it so I was familiar with all of that so it so I was familiar with all of that so it was just it was with a smile when I was just it was with a smile when I was just it was with a smile when I started to see people doing that to our started to see people doing that to our started to see people doing that to our games I am you know making level editors games I am you know making level editors games I am you know making level editors for Commander Keane or uh hacking up for Commander Keane or uh hacking up for Commander Keane or uh hacking up Wolfenstein 3D but I made the pitch Wolfenstein 3D but I made the pitch Wolfenstein 3D but I made the pitch internally that we should actually

internally that we should actually internally that we should actually release our own tools for like what we release our own tools for like what we release our own tools for like what we did uh what we used to create the games did uh what we used to create the games did uh what we used to create the games and that was you know that was a little and that was you know that was a little and that was you know that was a little bit debatable about well you know will bit debatable about well you know will bit debatable about well you know will this let other will give people a leg up this let other will give people a leg up this let other will give people a leg up it's always like what's that going to it's always like what's that going to it's always like what's that going to mean for the competition yeah but the mean for the competition yeah but the mean for the competition yeah but the really hard pitch was to actually really hard pitch was to actually really hard pitch was to actually release the full source code for the release the full source code for the release the full source code for the games and it was a balancing act with games and it was a balancing act with games and it was a balancing act with the uh the other people inside the the uh the other people inside the the uh the other people inside the company where it's interesting how the company where it's interesting how the company where it's interesting how the programmers generally did get certainly programmers generally did get certainly programmers generally did get certainly I the people that I worked closely with I the people that I worked closely with I the people that I worked closely with they did kind of get that ethic bit they did kind of get that ethic bit they did kind of get that ethic bit where you wanted to share your code you where you wanted to share your code you where you wanted to share your code you were you were proud of it you wanted were you were proud of it you wanted were you were proud of it you wanted other people to take it do cool things other people to take it do cool things other people to take it do cool things with it but uh interestingly the the with it but uh interestingly the the with it but uh interestingly the the broader game industry is a little more broader game industry is a little more broader game industry is a little more hesitant to embrace that than like the hesitant to embrace that than like the hesitant to embrace that than like the group of people that we happen to have group of people that we happen to have group of people that we happen to have at ID software where it was always a at ID software where it was always a at ID software where it was always a little interesting to me seeing how a little interesting to me seeing how a little interesting to me seeing how a lot of people in the game modding lot of people in the game modding lot of people in the game modding Community were very possessive of their Community were very possessive of their Community were very possessive of their code they did not want to share their code they did not want to share their code they did not want to share their code they wanted it to be theirs it was code they wanted it to be theirs it was code they wanted it to be theirs it was their you know know claim to fame and their you know know claim to fame and their you know know claim to fame and that was much more like what we tended that was much more like what we tended that was much more like what we tended to see with artists where you know the to see with artists where you know the to see with artists where you know the artists understand something about artists understand something about artists understand something about credit and I you know wanting it to be credit and I you know wanting it to be credit and I you know wanting it to be known as their work and a lot of the known as their work and a lot of the known as their work and a lot of the game programmers felt a little bit more game programmers felt a little bit more game programmers felt a little bit more like artists than like hacker like artists than like hacker like artists than like hacker programmers in that it was about programmers in that it was about programmers in that it was about building something that maybe felt more building something that maybe felt more building something that maybe felt more like art to them than the the more like art to them than the the more like art to them than the the more tool-based and exploration based uh kind

tool-based and exploration based uh kind tool-based and exploration based uh kind of hacking culture side of things yeah of hacking culture side of things yeah of hacking culture side of things yeah it's so it's so interesting that this it's so it's so interesting that this it's so it's so interesting that this kind of kind of kind of um fear that credit will not be um fear that credit will not be um fear that credit will not be sufficiently attributed to you and sufficiently attributed to you and sufficiently attributed to you and that's one of the things that I do bump that's one of the things that I do bump that's one of the things that I do bump into a lot because I I try not to go CL into a lot because I I try not to go CL into a lot because I I try not to go CL I mean it's easy for me to say because I mean it's easy for me to say because I mean it's easy for me to say because so much credit is heaped on me for the so much credit is heaped on me for the so much credit is heaped on me for the the ID software side of things but when the ID software side of things but when the ID software side of things but when people come up and they they want to people come up and they they want to people come up and they they want to pick a fight and say no it's like that pick a fight and say no it's like that pick a fight and say no it's like that wasn't where firsters gaming came from wasn't where firsters gaming came from wasn't where firsters gaming came from and you can point to you know you can and you can point to you know you can and you can point to you know you can point to some of like things on obscure point to some of like things on obscure point to some of like things on obscure titles that I was never aware of or like titles that I was never aware of or like titles that I was never aware of or like the old Playdoh systems or you know each the old Playdoh systems or you know each the old Playdoh systems or you know each personal computer had something that was personal computer had something that was personal computer had something that was 3D and moving around and I'm you know 3D and moving around and I'm you know 3D and moving around and I'm you know and I'm happy to say it's like no I mean and I'm happy to say it's like no I mean and I'm happy to say it's like no I mean I saw Battle Zone and Star Wars in the I saw Battle Zone and Star Wars in the I saw Battle Zone and Star Wars in the arcades I had seen 3D Graphics I had arcades I had seen 3D Graphics I had arcades I had seen 3D Graphics I had seen all these things they I'm standing seen all these things they I'm standing seen all these things they I'm standing on the shoulders of lots of other people on the shoulders of lots of other people on the shoulders of lots of other people but sometimes these examples they pull but sometimes these examples they pull but sometimes these examples they pull out it's like N I didn't know that out it's like N I didn't know that out it's like N I didn't know that existed I mean there I had never heard existed I mean there I had never heard existed I mean there I had never heard of that before then that didn't of that before then that didn't of that before then that didn't contribute to what I made but there's contribute to what I made but there's contribute to what I made but there's plenty of stuff that did and you know I plenty of stuff that did and you know I plenty of stuff that did and you know I I I think there's good cases to be made I I think there's good cases to be made I I think there's good cases to be made that obviously doom and Quake and that obviously doom and Quake and that obviously doom and Quake and Wolfenstein were were formative examples Wolfenstein were were formative examples Wolfenstein were were formative examples for what everything that came after that for what everything that came after that for what everything that came after that but I don't feel the need to go fight but I don't feel the need to go fight but I don't feel the need to go fight and say claim Primacy or initial and say claim Primacy or initial and say claim Primacy or initial invention of anything like that but a invention of anything like that but a invention of anything like that but a lot of people do want to I think when lot of people do want to I think when lot of people do want to I think when you fight for the credit in that way and you fight for the credit in that way and you fight for the credit in that way and it does go against the hacker it does go against the hacker it does go against the hacker ethic you destroy something fundamental

ethic you destroy something fundamental ethic you destroy something fundamental about the culture about the community about the culture about the community about the culture about the community that builds cool stuff I think credit that builds cool stuff I think credit that builds cool stuff I think credit ultimately ultimately ultimately um uh so I had this sort of um there's a um uh so I had this sort of um there's a um uh so I had this sort of um there's a famous wrestler in Freestyle Wrestling famous wrestler in Freestyle Wrestling famous wrestler in Freestyle Wrestling called called called buar and he always preached that you buar and he always preached that you buar and he always preached that you should just focus on the art of the should just focus on the art of the should just focus on the art of the wrestling and let wrestling and let wrestling and let people um write your story however they people um write your story however they people um write your story however they want uh the the the highest form of the want uh the the the highest form of the want uh the the the highest form of the art is just focusing on the artart and art is just focusing on the artart and art is just focusing on the artart and that's something that is something about that's something that is something about that's something that is something about the the hacker ethic is just focus on the the hacker ethic is just focus on the the hacker ethic is just focus on building Cool Stuff sharing it with building Cool Stuff sharing it with building Cool Stuff sharing it with other cool people and credit will get other cool people and credit will get other cool people and credit will get assigned correctly assigned correctly assigned correctly uh in the long Arc of History yeah and I uh in the long Arc of History yeah and I uh in the long Arc of History yeah and I generally think that's true and you've generally think that's true and you've generally think that's true and you've got I am you know like there's some got I am you know like there's some got I am you know like there's some things there there's a graphics things there there's a graphics things there there's a graphics technique that got labeled CarMax technique that got labeled CarMax technique that got labeled CarMax reverse I am you know literally named reverse I am you know literally named reverse I am you know literally named and it turned out that I wasn't the and it turned out that I wasn't the and it turned out that I wasn't the first person to to figure that out this and then there's things that get this and then there's things that get attributed to me like the inverse square attributed to me like the inverse square attributed to me like the inverse square root hack that I actually didn't do I root hack that I actually didn't do I root hack that I actually didn't do I flat out that wasn't me and it's like flat out that wasn't me and it's like flat out that wasn't me and it's like it's weird how the mimetic power of the it's weird how the mimetic power of the it's weird how the mimetic power of the internet I cannot I can of programming internet I cannot I can of programming internet I cannot I can of programming just everything just gets attributed to just everything just gets attributed to just everything just gets attributed to you now even though you've never sought you now even though you've never sought you now even though you've never sought that the credit of things I mean but

that the credit of things I mean but that the credit of things I mean but part of the the fact of humility behind part of the the fact of humility behind part of the the fact of humility behind that is what uh attracts the that is what uh attracts the that is what uh attracts the attributions let's talk about a game me attributions let's talk about a game me attributions let's talk about a game me one of the greatest games ever made I one of the greatest games ever made I one of the greatest games ever made I know you could talk about doing quake know you could talk about doing quake know you could talk about doing quake and so on but to me Wolfenstein 3D was and so on but to me Wolfenstein 3D was and so on but to me Wolfenstein 3D was like like like wow it it blew my mind that the world wow it it blew my mind that the world wow it it blew my mind that the world like this could exist so how did like this could exist so how did like this could exist so how did Wolfenstein 3D come to be uh in terms of Wolfenstein 3D come to be uh in terms of Wolfenstein 3D come to be uh in terms of the programming in terms of the design the programming in terms of the design the programming in terms of the design in terms of some of the memorable in terms of some of the memorable in terms of some of the memorable technical technical technical challenges um and also actually just challenges um and also actually just challenges um and also actually just something you haven't mentioned something you haven't mentioned something you haven't mentioned you know how did these ideas you know how did these ideas you know how did these ideas come to be inside your mind the Adaptive come to be inside your mind the Adaptive come to be inside your mind the Adaptive sidescrolling so the solutions to these sidescrolling so the solutions to these sidescrolling so the solutions to these technical challenges so I usually can technical challenges so I usually can technical challenges so I usually can introspectively pull back pretty introspectively pull back pretty introspectively pull back pretty detailed uh accounts of how technology detailed uh accounts of how technology detailed uh accounts of how technology Solutions and design choices on my part Solutions and design choices on my part Solutions and design choices on my part came to be where I technically we had came to be where I technically we had came to be where I technically we had done two games 3D games like that before done two games 3D games like that before done two games 3D games like that before where hover tank was the first one which where hover tank was the first one which where hover tank was the first one which had had flat-shaded walls but did have had had flat-shaded walls but did have had had flat-shaded walls but did have the scaled enemies inside it and then the scaled enemies inside it and then the scaled enemies inside it and then catacombs 3D which had textured walls catacombs 3D which had textured walls catacombs 3D which had textured walls scaled enemies and uh some more uh some scaled enemies and uh some more uh some scaled enemies and uh some more uh some more functionality like the disappearing more functionality like the disappearing more functionality like the disappearing walls and some other stuff but what's walls and some other stuff but what's walls and some other stuff but what's really interesting from a game really interesting from a game really interesting from a game development standpoint is those games development standpoint is those games development standpoint is those games catacombs 3D P tank and Wolfenstein they catacombs 3D P tank and Wolfenstein they catacombs 3D P tank and Wolfenstein they literally used the same code for a lot

literally used the same code for a lot literally used the same code for a lot of the character behavior that a 2d game of the character behavior that a 2d game of the character behavior that a 2d game that I had made earlier called catacombs that I had made earlier called catacombs that I had made earlier called catacombs did where it was an overhead view game did where it was an overhead view game did where it was an overhead view game kind of like Gauntlet you're running kind of like Gauntlet you're running kind of like Gauntlet you're running around and you can open up doors pick up around and you can open up doors pick up around and you can open up doors pick up items basic game stuff and the thought items basic game stuff and the thought items basic game stuff and the thought was that this exact same game experience was that this exact same game experience was that this exact same game experience just presented in a different just presented in a different just presented in a different perspective it could be literally the perspective it could be literally the perspective it could be literally the same game just with a different view same game just with a different view same game just with a different view into it would have a dramatically into it would have a dramatically into it would have a dramatically different impact on the players well so different impact on the players well so different impact on the players well so it wasn't it wasn't a true 3D you're it wasn't it wasn't a true 3D you're it wasn't it wasn't a true 3D you're saying that you can kind of fake it you saying that you can kind of fake it you saying that you can kind of fake it you can like scale enemies meaning things can like scale enemies meaning things can like scale enemies meaning things that are farther away you can make them that are farther away you can make them that are farther away you can make them smaller so from the game was a 2d map smaller so from the game was a 2d map smaller so from the game was a 2d map like all of our games use the same tool like all of our games use the same tool like all of our games use the same tool for creation we use the same map editor for creation we use the same map editor for creation we use the same map editor for creating Keen as Wolfenstein and he for creating Keen as Wolfenstein and he for creating Keen as Wolfenstein and he tank and catacombs and all this stuff so tank and catacombs and all this stuff so tank and catacombs and all this stuff so the game was a 2d grid uh made out of the game was a 2d grid uh made out of the game was a 2d grid uh made out of blocks and you could say well these are blocks and you could say well these are blocks and you could say well these are walls these are where the enemy start walls these are where the enemy start walls these are where the enemy start then they start moving around and these then they start moving around and these then they start moving around and these early games like catacombs you played it early games like catacombs you played it early games like catacombs you played it strictly in a 2d view it was a scrolling strictly in a 2d view it was a scrolling strictly in a 2d view it was a scrolling 2D View and that was kind of using an 2D View and that was kind of using an 2D View and that was kind of using an Adaptive tile refresh at the time to be Adaptive tile refresh at the time to be Adaptive tile refresh at the time to be able to do something like that and then able to do something like that and then able to do something like that and then the thought that these early games all the thought that these early games all the thought that these early games all it did was take the same basic enemy it did was take the same basic enemy it did was take the same basic enemy logic but instead of seeing it from the logic but instead of seeing it from the logic but instead of seeing it from the God's eye view on top you were inside it God's eye view on top you were inside it God's eye view on top you were inside it and turning from side to side yawing and turning from side to side yawing and turning from side to side yawing your view and moving forwards and your view and moving forwards and your view and moving forwards and backwards and side to side I and it's a backwards and side to side I and it's a backwards and side to side I and it's a striking thing where you always talk striking thing where you always talk striking thing where you always talk about wanting to isolate and Factor about wanting to isolate and Factor about wanting to isolate and Factor changes in values and this was one of

changes in values and this was one of changes in values and this was one of those most pure cases there where the those most pure cases there where the those most pure cases there where the rest of the game changed very little it rest of the game changed very little it rest of the game changed very little it was our normal kind of change the colors was our normal kind of change the colors was our normal kind of change the colors on something and draw a different on something and draw a different on something and draw a different picture for it but it's kind of the same picture for it but it's kind of the same picture for it but it's kind of the same thing but the perspective changed in a thing but the perspective changed in a thing but the perspective changed in a really fundamental way and it was really fundamental way and it was really fundamental way and it was dramatically different I can remember dramatically different I can remember dramatically different I can remember the reactions where the artist uh Adrian the reactions where the artist uh Adrian the reactions where the artist uh Adrian that had been drawing the pictures for that had been drawing the pictures for that had been drawing the pictures for we had a cool big troll thing in we had a cool big troll thing in we had a cool big troll thing in catacombs 3D and we had uh these walls catacombs 3D and we had uh these walls catacombs 3D and we had uh these walls that you could get a key and you could that you could get a key and you could that you could get a key and you could make the blocks disappear again really make the blocks disappear again really make the blocks disappear again really simple stuff block could either be there simple stuff block could either be there simple stuff block could either be there or not there so our idea of a door was or not there so our idea of a door was or not there so our idea of a door was being able to make a set of blocks just being able to make a set of blocks just being able to make a set of blocks just disappear and I remember the reaction disappear and I remember the reaction disappear and I remember the reaction where he had drawn these characters and where he had drawn these characters and where he had drawn these characters and he was slowly moving around and like he was slowly moving around and like he was slowly moving around and like people had no experience with 3D people had no experience with 3D people had no experience with 3D navigation it was all still keyboard we navigation it was all still keyboard we navigation it was all still keyboard we didn't even have mice uh set up at that didn't even have mice uh set up at that didn't even have mice uh set up at that time but slowly moving going up picked time but slowly moving going up picked time but slowly moving going up picked up a key go to a wall the wall up a key go to a wall the wall up a key go to a wall the wall disappears in a little animation and disappears in a little animation and disappears in a little animation and there's a monster like right there and there's a monster like right there and there's a monster like right there and he practically fell out of his chair it he practically fell out of his chair it he practically fell out of his chair it was just like ah and games just didn't was just like ah and games just didn't was just like ah and games just didn't didn't do that you know the games were didn't do that you know the games were didn't do that you know the games were the God's ey view you were a little the God's ey view you were a little the God's ey view you were a little invested in your little guy you can be invested in your little guy you can be invested in your little guy you can be like you know happy or sad when things like you know happy or sad when things like you know happy or sad when things happen but you just did not get that happen but you just did not get that happen but you just did not get that kind of startle kind of startle kind of startle reaction your face something in the back reaction your face something in the back reaction your face something in the back of your brain some reptile brain thing of your brain some reptile brain thing of your brain some reptile brain thing is just going oh something just is just going oh something just is just going oh something just happened and that was one of those early happened and that was one of those early happened and that was one of those early points where it's like yeah this is points where it's like yeah this is points where it's like yeah this is going to make a difference this is going going to make a difference this is going going to make a difference this is going to be powerful and it's going to matter to be powerful and it's going to matter to be powerful and it's going to matter were you able to imagine that in the were you able to imagine that in the were you able to imagine that in the idea stage or no so not that exact thing

idea stage or no so not that exact thing idea stage or no so not that exact thing so again we had cases like the arcade so again we had cases like the arcade so again we had cases like the arcade games Battle Zone and Star Wars that you games Battle Zone and Star Wars that you games Battle Zone and Star Wars that you could kind of see a 3D World and things could kind of see a 3D World and things could kind of see a 3D World and things coming at you and you get some sense of coming at you and you get some sense of coming at you and you get some sense of it but nothing had done the kind of it but nothing had done the kind of it but nothing had done the kind of Worlds that we were doing and the sort Worlds that we were doing and the sort Worlds that we were doing and the sort of action-based things 3D at the time of action-based things 3D at the time of action-based things 3D at the time was really largely about these was really largely about these was really largely about these simulation thoughts and this is simulation thoughts and this is simulation thoughts and this is something that really might have trended something that really might have trended something that really might have trended differently if not for the ID software differently if not for the ID software differently if not for the ID software approach in the games where where there approach in the games where where there approach in the games where where there were flight simulators there were were flight simulators there were were flight simulators there were driving simulators you had like hard driving simulators you had like hard driving simulators you had like hard Drivin and Microsoft flight simulator Drivin and Microsoft flight simulator Drivin and Microsoft flight simulator and these were doing 3D and general and these were doing 3D and general and these were doing 3D and general purpose 3D and ways that were more purpose 3D and ways that were more purpose 3D and ways that were more flexible than what we were doing with flexible than what we were doing with flexible than what we were doing with our games but they were looked at as our games but they were looked at as our games but they were looked at as simulations they weren't trying to simulations they weren't trying to simulations they weren't trying to necessarily be fast or responsive I you necessarily be fast or responsive I you necessarily be fast or responsive I you or letting you do kind of exciting or letting you do kind of exciting or letting you do kind of exciting Maneuvers because they were trying to Maneuvers because they were trying to Maneuvers because they were trying to simulate reality and they were taking simulate reality and they were taking simulate reality and they were taking their cues from the big systems the their cues from the big systems the their cues from the big systems the Evans and Sutherlands and the Silicon Evans and Sutherlands and the Silicon Evans and Sutherlands and the Silicon Graphics that were doing things but we Graphics that were doing things but we Graphics that were doing things but we were taking our cues from the console were taking our cues from the console were taking our cues from the console and arcade games you know we wanted and arcade games you know we wanted and arcade games you know we wanted things that were sort of quarter eaters things that were sort of quarter eaters things that were sort of quarter eaters that were doing fast-paced things that that were doing fast-paced things that that were doing fast-paced things that could smack you around rather than just could smack you around rather than just could smack you around rather than just smoothly gliding you from place to place smoothly gliding you from place to place smoothly gliding you from place to place so quarter so quarter so quarter ear and you know the funny thing is so ear and you know the funny thing is so ear and you know the funny thing is so much that that built into us that much that that built into us that much that that built into us that Wolfenstein still had lives and you had Wolfenstein still had lives and you had Wolfenstein still had lives and you had like one of the biggest powerups in all like one of the biggest powerups in all like one of the biggest powerups in all these games like was an extra life these games like was an extra life these games like was an extra life because you started off with three lives because you started off with three lives because you started off with three lives and you lose your lives and then it's and you lose your lives and then it's and you lose your lives and then it's game over and there weren't save games

game over and there weren't save games game over and there weren't save games in in most of this stuff it was it in in most of this stuff it was it in in most of this stuff it was it sounds almost crazy to say this but it sounds almost crazy to say this but it sounds almost crazy to say this but it was an innovation in Doom to not have was an innovation in Doom to not have was an innovation in Doom to not have lives you know you could just play Doom lives you know you could just play Doom lives you know you could just play Doom as long as you wanted you just restart as long as you wanted you just restart as long as you wanted you just restart at the the start of the level and why at the the start of the level and why at the the start of the level and why not this is like we we aren't trying to not this is like we we aren't trying to not this is like we we aren't trying to take people's quarters they've already take people's quarters they've already take people's quarters they've already paid for the entire game we want them to paid for the entire game we want them to paid for the entire game we want them to have a good time and you would have some have a good time and you would have some have a good time and you would have some uh you know some old-timer purist that uh you know some old-timer purist that uh you know some old-timer purist that might think that there's something to might think that there's something to might think that there's something to the epic journey of making it to the end the epic journey of making it to the end the epic journey of making it to the end having to restart all the way from the having to restart all the way from the having to restart all the way from the beginning after a certain number of beginning after a certain number of beginning after a certain number of tries but no more fun is had when you tries but no more fun is had when you tries but no more fun is had when you just let people kind of keep trying when just let people kind of keep trying when just let people kind of keep trying when they're stuck rather than having to go they're stuck rather than having to go they're stuck rather than having to go all the way back and and learn different all the way back and and learn different all the way back and and learn different things so you've recommended the book things so you've recommended the book things so you've recommended the book game engine black book Wolfenstein 3D game engine black book Wolfenstein 3D game engine black book Wolfenstein 3D for technical exploration of the game so for technical exploration of the game so for technical exploration of the game so looking back 30 years what are some looking back 30 years what are some looking back 30 years what are some memorable technical innovations that memorable technical innovations that memorable technical innovations that made this perspective shift into this made this perspective shift into this made this perspective shift into this world that's so immersive that scares world that's so immersive that scares world that's so immersive that scares you when a monster appears what were you when a monster appears what were you when a monster appears what were some things yet to solve so one of the some things yet to solve so one of the some things yet to solve so one of the interesting things that come back to the interesting things that come back to the interesting things that come back to the theme of deadlines and resource theme of deadlines and resource theme of deadlines and resource constraints the the game catoms 3D um we constraints the the game catoms 3D um we constraints the the game catoms 3D um we shipped we were supposed to be shipping shipped we were supposed to be shipping shipped we were supposed to be shipping this for Gamers Edge on a monthly this for Gamers Edge on a monthly this for Gamers Edge on a monthly Cadence and I had slipped I was actually Cadence and I had slipped I was actually Cadence and I had slipped I was actually late it slipped like six weeks because late it slipped like six weeks because late it slipped like six weeks because this was texture mapped walls doing this was texture mapped walls doing this was texture mapped walls doing stuff that I hadn't done before and at stuff that I hadn't done before and at stuff that I hadn't done before and at the six week point it was still kind of the six week point it was still kind of the six week point it was still kind of glitchy and buggy there were things that glitchy and buggy there were things that glitchy and buggy there were things that I knew that if you had a wall that was I knew that if you had a wall that was I knew that if you had a wall that was like almost Edge on you could slide over like almost Edge on you could slide over like almost Edge on you could slide over to it and you could see some things

to it and you could see some things to it and you could see some things freak out or vanish or not work and I freak out or vanish or not work and I freak out or vanish or not work and I hated that I I but I was up against the hated that I I but I was up against the hated that I I but I was up against the wall we had to ship the game uh it was wall we had to ship the game uh it was wall we had to ship the game uh it was still a lot of fun to play it was novel still a lot of fun to play it was novel still a lot of fun to play it was novel nobody had seen it it gave you that nobody had seen it it gave you that nobody had seen it it gave you that startle reflex uh reaction so it was startle reflex uh reaction so it was startle reflex uh reaction so it was worth shipping but it had these things worth shipping but it had these things worth shipping but it had these things that I knew were kind of flaky and janky that I knew were kind of flaky and janky that I knew were kind of flaky and janky and not uh not what I was really proud and not uh not what I was really proud and not uh not what I was really proud of so one of the the things that I did of so one of the the things that I did of so one of the the things that I did very differently in very differently in very differently in Wolfenstein I was I went catacombs used Wolfenstein I was I went catacombs used Wolfenstein I was I went catacombs used almost a conventional thing where you almost a conventional thing where you almost a conventional thing where you had segments that were one-dimensional had segments that were one-dimensional had segments that were one-dimensional polygons basically that were clipped and polygons basically that were clipped and polygons basically that were clipped and uh and backf faac and done kind of like uh and backf faac and done kind of like uh and backf faac and done kind of like a very crude 3D engine from the a very crude 3D engine from the a very crude 3D engine from the professionals but I wasn't getting it professionals but I wasn't getting it professionals but I wasn't getting it done right I I was not doing a good done right I I was not doing a good done right I I was not doing a good enough job I didn't really have line of enough job I didn't really have line of enough job I didn't really have line of sight to um to fix it right there's sight to um to fix it right there's sight to um to fix it right there's stuff that of course I look back it's stuff that of course I look back it's stuff that of course I look back it's like oh it's obvious how to do this do like oh it's obvious how to do this do like oh it's obvious how to do this do the math right do your clipping right uh the math right do your clipping right uh the math right do your clipping right uh check all of this how you handle the check all of this how you handle the check all of this how you handle the Precision but I did not know how to do Precision but I did not know how to do Precision but I did not know how to do that at that time and I was that the that at that time and I was that the that at that time and I was that the first 3D engine you wrote cacom 3D again first 3D engine you wrote cacom 3D again first 3D engine you wrote cacom 3D again hover tank had been a little bit before hover tank had been a little bit before hover tank had been a little bit before that but that had the flat-shaded walls that but that had the flat-shaded walls that but that had the flat-shaded walls so the texture mapping on the walls was so the texture mapping on the walls was so the texture mapping on the walls was what was bringing in some of these what was bringing in some of these what was bringing in some of these challenges that was uh that was hard for challenges that was uh that was hard for challenges that was uh that was hard for me and I couldn't solve it right at the me and I couldn't solve it right at the me and I couldn't solve it right at the time can you describe what flat shading time can you describe what flat shading time can you describe what flat shading is in texture mapping so in the the is in texture mapping so in the the is in texture mapping so in the the walls were solid color one of 16 colors walls were solid color one of 16 colors walls were solid color one of 16 colors um in Hover tank so that's easy it's um in Hover tank so that's easy it's um in Hover tank so that's easy it's fast you just draw the solid color for fast you just draw the solid color for fast you just draw the solid color for everything texture mapping is what we everything texture mapping is what we everything texture mapping is what we all see today where you have an image

all see today where you have an image all see today where you have an image that is stretched and distorted onto the that is stretched and distorted onto the that is stretched and distorted onto the walls or the surfaces that you're walls or the surfaces that you're walls or the surfaces that you're working with um and it was you know it working with um and it was you know it working with um and it was you know it was a long time for me to just figure was a long time for me to just figure was a long time for me to just figure out how to do that without it distorting out how to do that without it distorting out how to do that without it distorting in the wrong ways and and I did not get in the wrong ways and and I did not get in the wrong ways and and I did not get it all exactly right in catacombs and I it all exactly right in catacombs and I it all exactly right in catacombs and I I had these I had these I had these flaws so that was important enough to me flaws so that was important enough to me flaws so that was important enough to me that rather than continuing to bang my that rather than continuing to bang my that rather than continuing to bang my head on that when I wasn't positive I head on that when I wasn't positive I head on that when I wasn't positive I was going to get it I went with a was going to get it I went with a was going to get it I went with a completely different approach for completely different approach for completely different approach for drawing for figuring out where the walls drawing for figuring out where the walls drawing for figuring out where the walls were which was a ray casting approach were which was a ray casting approach were which was a ray casting approach which I had done in catacombs 3D I had a which I had done in catacombs 3D I had a which I had done in catacombs 3D I had a bunch of code trying to make this work bunch of code trying to make this work bunch of code trying to make this work right and it wasn't working right in right and it wasn't working right in right and it wasn't working right in Wolfenstein I wound up going to a very Wolfenstein I wound up going to a very Wolfenstein I wound up going to a very small amount of assembly code so in some small amount of assembly code so in some small amount of assembly code so in some ways this should be a slower way of ways this should be a slower way of ways this should be a slower way of doing it but by making it a smaller doing it but by making it a smaller doing it but by making it a smaller amount of work that I could more tightly amount of work that I could more tightly amount of work that I could more tightly optimize it worked out and Wolfenstein optimize it worked out and Wolfenstein optimize it worked out and Wolfenstein 3D was just absolutely Rock Solid you 3D was just absolutely Rock Solid you 3D was just absolutely Rock Solid you know it was you know nothing glitched in know it was you know nothing glitched in know it was you know nothing glitched in there the game just was pretty much there the game just was pretty much there the game just was pretty much Flawless through all of that and I was Flawless through all of that and I was Flawless through all of that and I was super proud of that um but eventually super proud of that um but eventually super proud of that um but eventually like in the later games I went back to like in the later games I went back to like in the later games I went back to the more span-based things where I could the more span-based things where I could the more span-based things where I could get more total efficiency once I really get more total efficiency once I really get more total efficiency once I really did figure out how to do it so there did figure out how to do it so there did figure out how to do it so there were two sort of key technical things to were two sort of key technical things to were two sort of key technical things to Wolfenstein one was this Ray casting Wolfenstein one was this Ray casting Wolfenstein one was this Ray casting approach which you still to this day you approach which you still to this day you approach which you still to this day you see people go and say let's write a ray see people go and say let's write a ray see people go and say let's write a ray casting engine because because it's an casting engine because because it's an casting engine because because it's an understandable way of doing things that understandable way of doing things that understandable way of doing things that lets you make games very much like that lets you make games very much like that lets you make games very much like that so you see Ray cters in JavaScript Ray

so you see Ray cters in JavaScript Ray so you see Ray cters in JavaScript Ray cters in Python people that are are cters in Python people that are are cters in Python people that are are basically going and reimplementing that basically going and reimplementing that basically going and reimplementing that uh that approach to to taking a tiled uh that approach to to taking a tiled uh that approach to to taking a tiled world and casting out into it it works world and casting out into it it works world and casting out into it it works pretty well but it's not the fastest way pretty well but it's not the fastest way pretty well but it's not the fastest way of doing it can you describe what Ray of doing it can you describe what Ray of doing it can you describe what Ray casting is so you start off and you've casting is so you start off and you've casting is so you start off and you've got your screen which is 320 pixels got your screen which is 320 pixels got your screen which is 320 pixels across at the time if you haven't sized across at the time if you haven't sized across at the time if you haven't sized down uh the window for for greater speed down uh the window for for greater speed down uh the window for for greater speed and at every pixel there's going to be and at every pixel there's going to be and at every pixel there's going to be an angle from you've got your position an angle from you've got your position an angle from you've got your position in the world and you're going to just in the world and you're going to just in the world and you're going to just run along that angle and keep going run along that angle and keep going run along that angle and keep going until you hit a block so up to 320 times until you hit a block so up to 320 times until you hit a block so up to 320 times across there it's going to throw cast across there it's going to throw cast across there it's going to throw cast array out into the world from wherever array out into the world from wherever array out into the world from wherever your origin is until it runs into a wall your origin is until it runs into a wall your origin is until it runs into a wall and then it can figure out exactly where and then it can figure out exactly where and then it can figure out exactly where on the wall uh it hits the performance on the wall uh it hits the performance on the wall uh it hits the performance challenge of that is as it's going out challenge of that is as it's going out challenge of that is as it's going out every block it's Crossing it checks is every block it's Crossing it checks is every block it's Crossing it checks is this a solid wall so that means that in this a solid wall so that means that in this a solid wall so that means that in and like the early Wolfenstein levels and like the early Wolfenstein levels and like the early Wolfenstein levels you're in a small jail cell going out you're in a small jail cell going out you're in a small jail cell going out into a small hallway it's super into a small hallway it's super into a small hallway it's super efficient for that because you're only efficient for that because you're only efficient for that because you're only stepping across three or four blocks but stepping across three or four blocks but stepping across three or four blocks but then if somebody makes a room that then if somebody makes a room that then if somebody makes a room that covers our Maps were limited to 64x 64 covers our Maps were limited to 64x 64 covers our Maps were limited to 64x 64 blocks if you made one room that was blocks if you made one room that was blocks if you made one room that was nothing but walls at the far space it nothing but walls at the far space it nothing but walls at the far space it would go pretty slow because it would be would go pretty slow because it would be would go pretty slow because it would be stepping across 80 tile tests or stepping across 80 tile tests or stepping across 80 tile tests or something along the way by the way the something along the way by the way the something along the way by the way the physics of our universe seems to be physics of our universe seems to be physics of our universe seems to be Computing this very thing so this Maps Computing this very thing so this Maps Computing this very thing so this Maps nicely to the actual physics of our nicely to the actual physics of our nicely to the actual physics of our world yeah you get I follow a little bit world yeah you get I follow a little bit world yeah you get I follow a little bit of some like Steven wolfram's work on of some like Steven wolfram's work on of some like Steven wolfram's work on you know interconnected Network

you know interconnected Network you know interconnected Network information states of that and that's information states of that and that's information states of that and that's it's beyond what I can have an informed it's beyond what I can have an informed it's beyond what I can have an informed opinion on but it's interesting that opinion on but it's interesting that opinion on but it's interesting that people are considering things like that people are considering things like that people are considering things like that and have uh and have things that can and have uh and have things that can and have uh and have things that can back it up yeah that's yeah there's back it up yeah that's yeah there's back it up yeah that's yeah there's whole different sets of interesting whole different sets of interesting whole different sets of interesting stuff there so Wolfenstein 3D had stuff there so Wolfenstein 3D had stuff there so Wolfenstein 3D had raycasting Ray casting and then the raycasting Ray casting and then the raycasting Ray casting and then the other kind of key aspect was what I other kind of key aspect was what I other kind of key aspect was what I called compiled scalers where the idea called compiled scalers where the idea called compiled scalers where the idea of um you saw this in the earlier of um you saw this in the earlier of um you saw this in the earlier classic arcade games like space Harrier classic arcade games like space Harrier classic arcade games like space Harrier and stuff where you would take a picture and stuff where you would take a picture and stuff where you would take a picture which is normally drawn directly on the which is normally drawn directly on the which is normally drawn directly on the screen and then if you have the ability screen and then if you have the ability screen and then if you have the ability to make it bigger or smaller big chunky to make it bigger or smaller big chunky to make it bigger or smaller big chunky pixels or phally small drop sampled pixels or phally small drop sampled pixels or phally small drop sampled pixels uh that's the fundamental aspect pixels uh that's the fundamental aspect pixels uh that's the fundamental aspect of what our characters were doing in of what our characters were doing in of what our characters were doing in these 3D games you would have it's just these 3D games you would have it's just these 3D games you would have it's just like you might have drawn a tiny little like you might have drawn a tiny little like you might have drawn a tiny little character but now we can make him really character but now we can make him really character but now we can make him really big big and make them really small move big big and make them really small move big big and make them really small move it around uh that was The Limited kind it around uh that was The Limited kind it around uh that was The Limited kind of 3D that we had for characters to make of 3D that we had for characters to make of 3D that we had for characters to make them turn there were literally eight them turn there were literally eight them turn there were literally eight different views of them you didn't different views of them you didn't different views of them you didn't actually have a 3D model that would actually have a 3D model that would actually have a 3D model that would rotate you just had these cardboard rotate you just had these cardboard rotate you just had these cardboard cutouts but that was good enough for cutouts but that was good enough for cutouts but that was good enough for that startle fight reaction and it was that startle fight reaction and it was that startle fight reaction and it was kind of what we had to deal deal with kind of what we had to deal deal with kind of what we had to deal deal with there so a straightforward approach to there so a straightforward approach to there so a straightforward approach to do that you could just write out your do that you could just write out your do that you could just write out your doubly nested Loop of uh you've got your doubly nested Loop of uh you've got your doubly nested Loop of uh you've got your stretch factor and it's like you've got stretch factor and it's like you've got stretch factor and it's like you've got a point you stretch by a little bit it a point you stretch by a little bit it a point you stretch by a little bit it might be on the same pi it might be on might be on the same pi it might be on might be on the same pi it might be on the next pixel might have skipped a the next pixel might have skipped a the next pixel might have skipped a pixel um you can write that out but it's pixel um you can write that out but it's pixel um you can write that out but it's not going to be fast enough where not going to be fast enough where not going to be fast enough where especially you get a character for that especially you get a character for that especially you get a character for that right in your face monster covering

right in your face monster covering right in your face monster covering almost the entire screen doing that with almost the entire screen doing that with almost the entire screen doing that with a general purpose scaling routine would a general purpose scaling routine would a general purpose scaling routine would have just been much too slow it would have just been much too slow it would have just been much too slow it would have worked when they're small have worked when they're small have worked when they're small characters but then it would get slower characters but then it would get slower characters but then it would get slower and slower as they got closer to you and slower as they got closer to you and slower as they got closer to you until right at the time when you most until right at the time when you most until right at the time when you most care about having a fast reaction time care about having a fast reaction time care about having a fast reaction time the game would be chunking down so the the game would be chunking down so the the game would be chunking down so the fastest possible way to draw pixels fastest possible way to draw pixels fastest possible way to draw pixels at that time was to at that time was to at that time was to um instead of saying I've got a general um instead of saying I've got a general um instead of saying I've got a general purpose um version that can handle any purpose um version that can handle any purpose um version that can handle any scale I made I I used a program to make scale I made I I used a program to make scale I made I I used a program to make essentially a hundred or more separate essentially a hundred or more separate essentially a hundred or more separate little programs that was optimized for I little programs that was optimized for I little programs that was optimized for I will take an image and I will draw it 12 will take an image and I will draw it 12 will take an image and I will draw it 12 pixels tall I'll take an image I'll draw pixels tall I'll take an image I'll draw pixels tall I'll take an image I'll draw it 14 pixels tall up by every two pixels it 14 pixels tall up by every two pixels it 14 pixels tall up by every two pixels even for that so you would have the most even for that so you would have the most even for that so you would have the most optimized code so so that in the normal optimized code so so that in the normal optimized code so so that in the normal case where most of the world is fairly case where most of the world is fairly case where most of the world is fairly large I like the the pixels are big you large I like the the pixels are big you large I like the the pixels are big you know we did not have a lot of memory so know we did not have a lot of memory so know we did not have a lot of memory so in most cases that meant that you would in most cases that meant that you would in most cases that meant that you would load a pixel color and then you would load a pixel color and then you would load a pixel color and then you would store it multiple times so that was store it multiple times so that was store it multiple times so that was faster than even copying an image in a faster than even copying an image in a faster than even copying an image in a normal conventional case because most of normal conventional case because most of normal conventional case because most of the time the image is expanded so the time the image is expanded so the time the image is expanded so instead of doing one read one write for instead of doing one read one write for instead of doing one read one write for a simple copy you might be doing one a simple copy you might be doing one a simple copy you might be doing one read and three or four wres as it got read and three or four wres as it got read and three or four wres as it got really big and that had the beneficial really big and that had the beneficial really big and that had the beneficial aspect of just when you needed the aspect of just when you needed the aspect of just when you needed the performance most when things are performance most when things are performance most when things are covering the screen it was giving you covering the screen it was giving you covering the screen it was giving you the most acceleration for that by the the most acceleration for that by the the most acceleration for that by the way were you able to

way were you able to way were you able to um understand this through thinking um understand this through thinking um understand this through thinking about it or were you testing like the about it or were you testing like the about it or were you testing like the right speed and like so this again comes right speed and like so this again comes right speed and like so this again comes back to I can find the antecedants for back to I can find the antecedants for back to I can find the antecedants for things like this so in I back in the things like this so in I back in the things like this so in I back in the Apple 2 days I the graphics were Apple 2 days I the graphics were Apple 2 days I the graphics were essentially single bits at a time and if essentially single bits at a time and if essentially single bits at a time and if you want want to make your little you want want to make your little you want want to make your little spaceship if you wanted to make it spaceship if you wanted to make it spaceship if you wanted to make it smoothly go across the world if you just smoothly go across the world if you just smoothly go across the world if you just took the image and you drew it out at took the image and you drew it out at took the image and you drew it out at the next location you would move by the next location you would move by the next location you would move by seven pixels at a time so it Go chunk seven pixels at a time so it Go chunk seven pixels at a time so it Go chunk chunk chunk if you wanted to make it chunk chunk if you wanted to make it chunk chunk if you wanted to make it move smoothly you actually had to make move smoothly you actually had to make move smoothly you actually had to make seven versions of the ship that were seven versions of the ship that were seven versions of the ship that were pre- shifted you could write a program pre- shifted you could write a program pre- shifted you could write a program that would shift it dynamically but on a that would shift it dynamically but on a that would shift it dynamically but on a one megahertz processor that's not going one megahertz processor that's not going one megahertz processor that's not going anywhere fast so if you wanted to do a anywhere fast so if you wanted to do a anywhere fast so if you wanted to do a smooth moving fast action game you made smooth moving fast action game you made smooth moving fast action game you made separate versions of each of these uh separate versions of each of these uh separate versions of each of these uh Sprites now there were a few more tricks Sprites now there were a few more tricks Sprites now there were a few more tricks you could pull that if it still wasn't you could pull that if it still wasn't you could pull that if it still wasn't fast enough you could make a compiled fast enough you could make a compiled fast enough you could make a compiled shape where instead of this program that shape where instead of this program that shape where instead of this program that normally copies an image and says like normally copies an image and says like normally copies an image and says like get this bite from here store it here get this bite from here store it here get this bite from here store it here get this bite store this bite if you've get this bite store this bite if you've get this bite store this bite if you've got the memory space you could say I'm got the memory space you could say I'm got the memory space you could say I'm going to write the program that does going to write the program that does going to write the program that does nothing but draw this shape it's going nothing but draw this shape it's going nothing but draw this shape it's going to be like I'm going to load the to be like I'm going to load the to be like I'm going to load the immediate value 25 you know which is immediate value 25 you know which is immediate value 25 you know which is some bit pattern and then I'm going to some bit pattern and then I'm going to some bit pattern and then I'm going to store that at this location store that at this location store that at this location uh rather than loading something from uh rather than loading something from uh rather than loading something from memory that involved indexing registers memory that involved indexing registers memory that involved indexing registers and this other slow stuff you could go and this other slow stuff you could go and this other slow stuff you could go ahead and say no I'm going to hardcode ahead and say no I'm going to hardcode ahead and say no I'm going to hardcode the exact values of all of the image

the exact values of all of the image the exact values of all of the image right into the program now this was right into the program now this was right into the program now this was always a horrible trade-off there but always a horrible trade-off there but always a horrible trade-off there but you didn't have much memory and you you didn't have much memory and you you didn't have much memory and you didn't have much speed but if you had didn't have much speed but if you had didn't have much speed but if you had something that you wanted to go really something that you wanted to go really something that you wanted to go really fast you could turn it into a program fast you could turn it into a program fast you could turn it into a program and that was you know knowing about that and that was you know knowing about that and that was you know knowing about that technique is what made me think about technique is what made me think about technique is what made me think about some of these unwinding it for the PC some of these unwinding it for the PC some of these unwinding it for the PC where people that didn't come from that where people that didn't come from that where people that didn't come from that back ground we're less likely to think back ground we're less likely to think back ground we're less likely to think about that I mean there's some deep about that I mean there's some deep about that I mean there's some deep parallels probably to human cognition as parallels probably to human cognition as parallels probably to human cognition as well there's something well there's something well there's something about optimizing and compressing the the processing of a new compressing the the processing of a new information that requires you to predict information that requires you to predict information that requires you to predict the possible ways in which the game or the possible ways in which the game or the possible ways in which the game or the world might unroll and you have the world might unroll and you have the world might unroll and you have something like compiled scalers always something like compiled scalers always something like compiled scalers always there so you have like optim like you there so you have like optim like you there so you have like optim like you have a prediction of how the world will have a prediction of how the world will have a prediction of how the world will unroll and you have some kind of unroll and you have some kind of unroll and you have some kind of optimized data structure for that optimized data structure for that optimized data structure for that prediction and then you can modify if prediction and then you can modify if prediction and then you can modify if the world turns out to be different you the world turns out to be different you the world turns out to be different you can modify in slight way and as far as can modify in slight way and as far as can modify in slight way and as far as building out techniques so so much of building out techniques so so much of building out techniques so so much of the brain is about the associative the brain is about the associative the brain is about the associative context you know they're just when you context you know they're just when you context you know they're just when you learn something it's in the context of learn something it's in the context of learn something it's in the context of something else and you can have faint something else and you can have faint something else and you can have faint tiny little hints of things and I do tiny little hints of things and I do tiny little hints of things and I do think there are some deep things uh you think there are some deep things uh you think there are some deep things uh you know around like sparse distributed know around like sparse distributed know around like sparse distributed memories and boosting that's like if you memories and boosting that's like if you memories and boosting that's like if you can just be slight above the noise floor can just be slight above the noise floor can just be slight above the noise floor of having some hint of something you can of having some hint of something you can of having some hint of something you can have things refined into pulling the have things refined into pulling the have things refined into pulling the memory back up so having a being a memory back up so having a being a memory back up so having a being a programmer and having a toolbox of like programmer and having a toolbox of like programmer and having a toolbox of like all of these things that things that I

all of these things that things that I all of these things that things that I did in all of these previous lives of did in all of these previous lives of did in all of these previous lives of programming tasks that still matters to programming tasks that still matters to programming tasks that still matters to me about how I'm able to pull up some of me about how I'm able to pull up some of me about how I'm able to pull up some of these things like in that case it was these things like in that case it was these things like in that case it was something I did on the Apple too then something I did on the Apple too then something I did on the Apple too then being relevant for the PC and I have being relevant for the PC and I have being relevant for the PC and I have still cases when I would when I would still cases when I would when I would still cases when I would when I would work on mobile development then' be like work on mobile development then' be like work on mobile development then' be like okay I I did something like this back in okay I I did something like this back in okay I I did something like this back in the the Doom days but now it's a the the Doom days but now it's a the the Doom days but now it's a different environment but I still had different environment but I still had different environment but I still had that tie I can bring it in and I can that tie I can bring it in and I can that tie I can bring it in and I can transform it into what the world needs transform it into what the world needs transform it into what the world needs right now and I I do think that's right now and I I do think that's right now and I I do think that's actually one of the very core things actually one of the very core things actually one of the very core things with human cognition and brain like I with human cognition and brain like I with human cognition and brain like I you know brain-like functioning is you know brain-like functioning is you know brain-like functioning is finding these ways about you've got your finding these ways about you've got your finding these ways about you've got your brain is kind of everything everywhere brain is kind of everything everywhere brain is kind of everything everywhere all at once you know it's it is just a all at once you know it's it is just a all at once you know it's it is just a set of all of this stuff that is just set of all of this stuff that is just set of all of this stuff that is just fetched back by these queries that go fetched back by these queries that go fetched back by these queries that go into it and they can just be slightly into it and they can just be slightly into it and they can just be slightly above the noise floor with random noise above the noise floor with random noise above the noise floor with random noise in your n neurons and synapses that are in your n neurons and synapses that are in your n neurons and synapses that are affecting exactly what gets pulled up so affecting exactly what gets pulled up so affecting exactly what gets pulled up so you're saying some of these very you're saying some of these very you're saying some of these very specific solutions for different games specific solutions for different games specific solutions for different games you find that there's a kernel of an a you find that there's a kernel of an a you find that there's a kernel of an a deep idea that's generalizable to other deep idea that's generalizable to other deep idea that's generalizable to other to other things yeah you can't predict to other things yeah you can't predict to other things yeah you can't predict what it's going to be but that idea of what it's going to be but that idea of what it's going to be but that idea of like I called out that compiled shaders like I called out that compiled shaders like I called out that compiled shaders uh in the forward that I wrote for that uh in the forward that I wrote for that uh in the forward that I wrote for that uh the game engine black book as you uh the game engine black book as you uh the game engine black book as you know this is it's kind of an end point know this is it's kind of an end point know this is it's kind of an end point of unrolling code but that's one of of unrolling code but that's one of of unrolling code but that's one of those things that thinking about that those things that thinking about that those things that thinking about that and having that in your mind and I'm and having that in your mind and I'm and having that in your mind and I'm sure there are some programmers that you sure there are some programmers that you sure there are some programmers that you know hear about that think about it a know hear about that think about it a know hear about that think about it a little bit it's kind of the mind blown little bit it's kind of the mind blown little bit it's kind of the mind blown moment it's like oh you can just turn moment it's like oh you can just turn moment it's like oh you can just turn all of that data into code and nowadays all of that data into code and nowadays all of that data into code and nowadays you know you have instruction cache

you know you have instruction cache you know you have instruction cache issues and that's not necessarily the issues and that's not necessarily the issues and that's not necessarily the best idea but there are different it's best idea but there are different it's best idea but there are different it's an idea that has power and has probably an idea that has power and has probably an idea that has power and has probably relevance in some other areas maybe it's relevance in some other areas maybe it's relevance in some other areas maybe it's in a hardware point of view that there's in a hardware point of view that there's in a hardware point of view that there's a way you approach building Hardware a way you approach building Hardware a way you approach building Hardware that has that same you don't even have that has that same you don't even have that has that same you don't even have to think about iterating you just bake to think about iterating you just bake to think about iterating you just bake everything all the way into it in one everything all the way into it in one everything all the way into it in one place what is the story of how you came place what is the story of how you came place what is the story of how you came to program Doom what are some memorable to program Doom what are some memorable to program Doom what are some memorable technical challenges or Innovations technical challenges or Innovations technical challenges or Innovations within that game so the path that we within that game so the path that we within that game so the path that we went after uh after Wolfenstein got out went after uh after Wolfenstein got out went after uh after Wolfenstein got out and we were on this crazy Arc where Keen and we were on this crazy Arc where Keen and we were on this crazy Arc where Keen 1 through three more success than we 1 through three more success than we 1 through three more success than we thought Keen 4 through six even more thought Keen 4 through six even more thought Keen 4 through six even more success Wolfenstein even more success so success Wolfenstein even more success so success Wolfenstein even more success so we were on this this crazy trajectory we were on this this crazy trajectory we were on this this crazy trajectory for things so actually our first Box for things so actually our first Box for things so actually our first Box commercial project was a commander Keen commercial project was a commander Keen commercial project was a commander Keen I game but then Wolfenstein was going to I game but then Wolfenstein was going to I game but then Wolfenstein was going to have a game Spear of Destiny which was a have a game Spear of Destiny which was a have a game Spear of Destiny which was a commercial version 60 new levels so the commercial version 60 new levels so the commercial version 60 new levels so the rest of the team took the game engine rest of the team took the game engine rest of the team took the game engine pretty much as it was and started pretty much as it was and started pretty much as it was and started working on that we got new monsters but working on that we got new monsters but working on that we got new monsters but it's basically reskins of the things it's basically reskins of the things it's basically reskins of the things there and there's a really interesting there and there's a really interesting there and there's a really interesting aspect about that that I didn't aspect about that that I didn't aspect about that that I didn't appreciate until much much later about appreciate until much much later about appreciate until much much later about how Wolfenstein clearly did tap out uh how Wolfenstein clearly did tap out uh how Wolfenstein clearly did tap out uh its limit about what you want to play I its limit about what you want to play I its limit about what you want to play I all the levels and a couple of our all the levels and a couple of our all the levels and a couple of our license things there was a a hard license things there was a a hard license things there was a a hard creative wall that you did not really creative wall that you did not really creative wall that you did not really benefit much by continuing to beat on it benefit much by continuing to beat on it benefit much by continuing to beat on it but uh a game like doom and other more but uh a game like doom and other more but uh a game like doom and other more modern games like Minecraft or something

modern games like Minecraft or something modern games like Minecraft or something there's kind of a turing completeness there's kind of a turing completeness there's kind of a turing completeness level of design Freedom that you get in level of design Freedom that you get in level of design Freedom that you get in games that Wolfenstein clearly sat on games that Wolfenstein clearly sat on games that Wolfenstein clearly sat on one side of you know all the creative one side of you know all the creative one side of you know all the creative people in the world could not go and do people in the world could not go and do people in the world could not go and do a masterpiece just with the technology a masterpiece just with the technology a masterpiece just with the technology that Wolfenstein had Wolfenstein could that Wolfenstein had Wolfenstein could that Wolfenstein had Wolfenstein could do Wolfenstein but you really couldn't do Wolfenstein but you really couldn't do Wolfenstein but you really couldn't do something crazy different but it do something crazy different but it do something crazy different but it didn't take that much more capability to didn't take that much more capability to didn't take that much more capability to get to Wolfenstein with the free form get to Wolfenstein with the free form get to Wolfenstein with the free form lines and a little bit more artistic lines and a little bit more artistic lines and a little bit more artistic freedom to get to the point where people freedom to get to the point where people freedom to get to the point where people still announce new Doom levels today all still announce new Doom levels today all still announce new Doom levels today all these years after without having these years after without having these years after without having completely Tapped Out the creativity how completely Tapped Out the creativity how completely Tapped Out the creativity how did you how did you put it touring did you how did you put it touring did you how did you put it touring complete like touring complete design complete like touring complete design complete like touring complete design space design where it's like you know we space design where it's like you know we space design where it's like you know we have the kind of computational have the kind of computational have the kind of computational universality on a lot of things and how universality on a lot of things and how universality on a lot of things and how different work but yeah there's things different work but yeah there's things different work but yeah there's things where a box can be too small but above a where a box can be too small but above a where a box can be too small but above a certain point you kind of are at the certain point you kind of are at the certain point you kind of are at the point where you you really have almost point where you you really have almost point where you you really have almost unbounded creative ability there and unbounded creative ability there and unbounded creative ability there and doom is the first time you cross that doom is the first time you cross that doom is the first time you cross that line yeah where there were thousands of line yeah where there were thousands of line yeah where there were thousands of Doom levels created and some of them Doom levels created and some of them Doom levels created and some of them still have something new and interesting still have something new and interesting still have something new and interesting to say to the world about it is that to say to the world about it is that to say to the world about it is that line can you introspect what that line line can you introspect what that line line can you introspect what that line was is in the design space is it was is in the design space is it was is in the design space is it something about the programming uh something about the programming uh something about the programming uh capabilities that you were able to add capabilities that you were able to add capabilities that you were able to add to the game so the graphics Fidelity was to the game so the graphics Fidelity was to the game so the graphics Fidelity was a necessary part because the block a necessary part because the block a necessary part because the block limitations in Wolfenstein uh what we limitations in Wolfenstein uh what we limitations in Wolfenstein uh what we had right there was uh was not enough had right there was uh was not enough had right there was uh was not enough the full scale blocks although Minecraft

the full scale blocks although Minecraft the full scale blocks although Minecraft I really did show that perhaps blocks uh I really did show that perhaps blocks uh I really did show that perhaps blocks uh stacked in 3D and at one quarter the stacked in 3D and at one quarter the stacked in 3D and at one quarter the scale of that or 1/8 in volume is then scale of that or 1/8 in volume is then scale of that or 1/8 in volume is then sufficient to have all of that but the sufficient to have all of that but the sufficient to have all of that but the the wall-sized blocks that we had in the wall-sized blocks that we had in the wall-sized blocks that we had in Wolfenstein was too much of a creative Wolfenstein was too much of a creative Wolfenstein was too much of a creative limitation you know we licensed the limitation you know we licensed the limitation you know we licensed the technology to a few other teams none of technology to a few other teams none of technology to a few other teams none of them made you know too much of a of a them made you know too much of a of a them made you know too much of a of a dent with that it just wasn't enough dent with that it just wasn't enough dent with that it just wasn't enough creative ability but a little bit more creative ability but a little bit more creative ability but a little bit more whether it was the variable floors and whether it was the variable floors and whether it was the variable floors and ceilings and arbitrary angles in Doom or ceilings and arbitrary angles in Doom or ceilings and arbitrary angles in Doom or the smaller foxal blocks in uh in the smaller foxal blocks in uh in the smaller foxal blocks in uh in Minecraft is then enough to open it up Minecraft is then enough to open it up Minecraft is then enough to open it up to to just worlds and worlds of new to to just worlds and worlds of new to to just worlds and worlds of new capabilities what is binary space capabilities what is binary space capabilities what is binary space partitioning so the which is one one of partitioning so the which is one one of partitioning so the which is one one of the Technologies yeah so jump around a the Technologies yeah so jump around a the Technologies yeah so jump around a little bit on the on the story path little bit on the on the story path little bit on the on the story path there yes so while the team was working there yes so while the team was working there yes so while the team was working on spe Destiny for Wolfenstein I I had on spe Destiny for Wolfenstein I I had on spe Destiny for Wolfenstein I I had we had met another development team we had met another development team we had met another development team Raven soft wear while we were in Raven soft wear while we were in Raven soft wear while we were in Wisconsin and U they were doing they had Wisconsin and U they were doing they had Wisconsin and U they were doing they had RPG background and I I still kind of RPG background and I I still kind of RPG background and I I still kind of loved that and I offered to do a game loved that and I offered to do a game loved that and I offered to do a game engine for for them to let them do a 3D engine for for them to let them do a 3D engine for for them to let them do a 3D rendered RPG instead of the like most rendered RPG instead of the like most rendered RPG instead of the like most RPG games were kind of handrawn they RPG games were kind of handrawn they RPG games were kind of handrawn they made it look kind of 3D but it was done made it look kind of 3D but it was done made it look kind of 3D but it was done just all with artist work rather than a just all with artist work rather than a just all with artist work rather than a real engine and after Wolfenstein this real engine and after Wolfenstein this real engine and after Wolfenstein this was still a tile-based world but I added was still a tile-based world but I added was still a tile-based world but I added floors and ceilings and some lighting floors and ceilings and some lighting floors and ceilings and some lighting and the ability to have some sloped and the ability to have some sloped and the ability to have some sloped floors and different areas that was my floors and different areas that was my floors and different areas that was my intermediate step for a game called intermediate step for a game called intermediate step for a game called shadowcaster and it had slowed down

shadowcaster and it had slowed down shadowcaster and it had slowed down enough it was not fast enough to do our enough it was not fast enough to do our enough it was not fast enough to do our type of action things so they they had type of action things so they they had type of action things so they they had the screen cropped down a little bit so the screen cropped down a little bit so the screen cropped down a little bit so you couldn't go the full screen width you couldn't go the full screen width you couldn't go the full screen width like we would try to do in like we would try to do in like we would try to do in Wolfenstein I but I learned a lot I got Wolfenstein I but I learned a lot I got Wolfenstein I but I learned a lot I got the floors and ceilings and lightings the floors and ceilings and lightings the floors and ceilings and lightings and it looked great they were great and it looked great they were great and it looked great they were great artists up there and it was it was an artists up there and it was it was an artists up there and it was it was an inspiration for us to look at some of inspiration for us to look at some of inspiration for us to look at some of that stuff but I had learned enough from that stuff but I had learned enough from that stuff but I had learned enough from that that I had the plan for I knew that that I had the plan for I knew that that I had the plan for I knew faster ways to do the the lighting and faster ways to do the the lighting and faster ways to do the the lighting and shadowing and I wanted to do this free shadowing and I wanted to do this free shadowing and I wanted to do this free form geometry I wanted to break out of form geometry I wanted to break out of form geometry I wanted to break out of this tile based I 90 degree World this tile based I 90 degree World this tile based I 90 degree World limitations so we had uh that was when limitations so we had uh that was when limitations so we had uh that was when we got our next stations and we were we got our next stations and we were we got our next stations and we were working with these higher powerered working with these higher powerered working with these higher powerered systems and I we built an editor that systems and I we built an editor that systems and I we built an editor that let us draw kind of arbitrary line let us draw kind of arbitrary line let us draw kind of arbitrary line segment ments and I was working hard to segment ments and I was working hard to segment ments and I was working hard to try to make something that could render try to make something that could render try to make something that could render this fast enough I you know I was this fast enough I you know I was this fast enough I you know I was pushing myself pretty hard I and we were pushing myself pretty hard I and we were pushing myself pretty hard I and we were we were at a point where we could see we were at a point where we could see we were at a point where we could see some things that looked amazingly cool some things that looked amazingly cool some things that looked amazingly cool but it wasn't really fast enough for the but it wasn't really fast enough for the but it wasn't really fast enough for the way I was doing it I for this way I was doing it I for this way I was doing it I for this flexibility it was no longer I couldn't flexibility it was no longer I couldn't flexibility it was no longer I couldn't just raycast into it and I had these just raycast into it and I had these just raycast into it and I had these very complex sets of lines and simple very complex sets of lines and simple very complex sets of lines and simple little worlds were okay but the cool little worlds were okay but the cool little worlds were okay but the cool things that we wanted to do just weren't things that we wanted to do just weren't things that we wanted to do just weren't quite fast enough and I wound up taking quite fast enough and I wound up taking quite fast enough and I wound up taking a break at that point and I did the the a break at that point and I did the the a break at that point and I did the the port I did two ports of our game's uh port I did two ports of our game's uh port I did two ports of our game's uh Wolfenstein to the uh to the Super Wolfenstein to the uh to the Super Wolfenstein to the uh to the Super Nintendo it was a it was a crazy Nintendo it was a it was a crazy Nintendo it was a it was a crazy difficult thing to to do which was an

difficult thing to to do which was an difficult thing to to do which was an even slower processor was like two I even slower processor was like two I even slower processor was like two I couple megahertz uh processor and it had couple megahertz uh processor and it had couple megahertz uh processor and it had been this whole thing where we had been this whole thing where we had been this whole thing where we had farmed out the um the work and it wasn't farmed out the um the work and it wasn't farmed out the um the work and it wasn't it wasn't going well and I took it back it wasn't going well and I took it back it wasn't going well and I took it back over and trying to make it go fast on over and trying to make it go fast on over and trying to make it go fast on there where it really did not have much there where it really did not have much there where it really did not have much processing power the pixels were processing power the pixels were processing power the pixels were stretched up hugely and it's you know stretched up hugely and it's you know stretched up hugely and it's you know was pretty ugly when you looked at it was pretty ugly when you looked at it was pretty ugly when you looked at it but in the end it did come out fast but in the end it did come out fast but in the end it did come out fast enough to play and still be kind of fun enough to play and still be kind of fun enough to play and still be kind of fun from that but that was where I started from that but that was where I started from that but that was where I started using uh bsp trees or binary space using uh bsp trees or binary space using uh bsp trees or binary space partitioning trees it was one of those partitioning trees it was one of those partitioning trees it was one of those things I had to make it faster there it things I had to make it faster there it things I had to make it faster there it was a stepping stone where it was was a stepping stone where it was was a stepping stone where it was reasonably easy to understand in the reasonably easy to understand in the reasonably easy to understand in the grid world of Wolfenstein where it was grid world of Wolfenstein where it was grid world of Wolfenstein where it was all still 90 degree angles um bsp trees all still 90 degree angles um bsp trees all still 90 degree angles um bsp trees were I eased myself into it with that were I eased myself into it with that were I eased myself into it with that and it was a big success um then when I and it was a big success um then when I and it was a big success um then when I came back to working on Doom I had this came back to working on Doom I had this came back to working on Doom I had this new tool in my toolbx it was going to be new tool in my toolbx it was going to be new tool in my toolbx it was going to be a lot harder with the arbitrary angles a lot harder with the arbitrary angles a lot harder with the arbitrary angles of Doom this was where I really started of Doom this was where I really started of Doom this was where I really started grappling with Epsilon problems and just grappling with Epsilon problems and just grappling with Epsilon problems and just you know up until that point I hadn't you know up until that point I hadn't you know up until that point I hadn't really had to deal with the fact that I really had to deal with the fact that I really had to deal with the fact that I am so many numeric things this almost am so many numeric things this almost am so many numeric things this almost felt like a betrayal to me where people felt like a betrayal to me where people felt like a betrayal to me where people had told me that I had mathematicians up had told me that I had mathematicians up had told me that I had mathematicians up on a bit of a pedestal where I was on a bit of a pedestal where I was on a bit of a pedestal where I was people think I'm a math Wizard and I'm people think I'm a math Wizard and I'm people think I'm a math Wizard and I'm not I really everything that I did was not I really everything that I did was not I really everything that I did was really done with a solid high school really done with a solid high school really done with a solid high school math understanding uh you know Algebra 2 math understanding uh you know Algebra 2 math understanding uh you know Algebra 2 trigonometry and um that was what got me trigonometry and um that was what got me trigonometry and um that was what got me all the way through doom and Quake and

all the way through doom and Quake and all the way through doom and Quake and all of that of just understanding basics all of that of just understanding basics all of that of just understanding basics of matrices and knowing it well enough of matrices and knowing it well enough of matrices and knowing it well enough to do something with it what's the to do something with it what's the to do something with it what's the Epsilon problems you run into so I when Epsilon problems you run into so I when Epsilon problems you run into so I when you wind up taking a like a sloped line you wind up taking a like a sloped line you wind up taking a like a sloped line and you say I'm going to intersect it and you say I'm going to intersect it and you say I'm going to intersect it with another sloped line with another sloped line with another sloped line um then you wind up with something um then you wind up with something um then you wind up with something that's not going to be on these nice that's not going to be on these nice that's not going to be on these nice grid boundaries with the Wolfenstein grid boundaries with the Wolfenstein grid boundaries with the Wolfenstein tile maps all you've got is horizontal tile maps all you've got is horizontal tile maps all you've got is horizontal and vertical lines looking at it from and vertical lines looking at it from and vertical lines looking at it from above and if you cut one of them it's above and if you cut one of them it's above and if you cut one of them it's just obvious the other one gets cut just obvious the other one gets cut just obvious the other one gets cut exactly at that point but when you have exactly at that point but when you have exactly at that point but when you have angled lines you're doing a kind of a angled lines you're doing a kind of a angled lines you're doing a kind of a slope intercept problem and you wind up slope intercept problem and you wind up slope intercept problem and you wind up with rational numbers there where things with rational numbers there where things with rational numbers there where things that are not going to evenly land on an that are not going to evenly land on an that are not going to evenly land on an integer or even on any fixed point value integer or even on any fixed point value integer or even on any fixed point value that you've got so everything winds up that you've got so everything winds up that you've got so everything winds up having to snap to some fix point value having to snap to some fix point value having to snap to some fix point value so the lines slightly change their angle so the lines slightly change their angle so the lines slightly change their angle you wind up if you cut something here you wind up if you cut something here you wind up if you cut something here this one's going to bend a little this this one's going to bend a little this this one's going to bend a little this way and it's not going to be completely way and it's not going to be completely way and it's not going to be completely straight and then you come down to all straight and then you come down to all straight and then you come down to all these questions of well this one is is these questions of well this one is is these questions of well this one is is is a point on an angled line you can't is a point on an angled line you can't is a point on an angled line you can't answer that in finite Precision unless answer that in finite Precision unless answer that in finite Precision unless you're doing something with actual you're doing something with actual you're doing something with actual rational numbers and later on I did rational numbers and later on I did rational numbers and later on I did waste far too much time chasing things waste far too much time chasing things waste far too much time chasing things like that how do you do precise like that how do you do precise like that how do you do precise arithmetic with rational numbers and it arithmetic with rational numbers and it arithmetic with rational numbers and it always blows up eventually you know always blows up eventually you know always blows up eventually you know eventally as you do enough so these are eventally as you do enough so these are eventally as you do enough so these are these kind of things are impossible with these kind of things are impossible with these kind of things are impossible with computers so there so they're possible computers so there so they're possible computers so there so they're possible again there are paths to do doing it but again there are paths to do doing it but again there are paths to do doing it but you can't fit them conveniently in any you can't fit them conveniently in any you can't fit them conveniently in any of the numbers you need to start using of the numbers you need to start using of the numbers you need to start using big nums and uh and different factor

trackingsm of OCD and you want to do trackingsm of OCD and you want to do something perfectly you're screwed if something perfectly you're screwed if something perfectly you're screwed if you're working with floating Point yeah you're working with floating Point yeah you're working with floating Point yeah so so you had to deal with this for the so so you had to deal with this for the so so you had to deal with this for the first time and there were there were first time and there were there were first time and there were there were lots of challenges there about like okay lots of challenges there about like okay lots of challenges there about like okay they build this cool thing and the way they build this cool thing and the way they build this cool thing and the way the bsp trees work is it basically takes the bsp trees work is it basically takes the bsp trees work is it basically takes the walls and it carves other Walls by the walls and it carves other Walls by the walls and it carves other Walls by those walls in this clever way that you those walls in this clever way that you those walls in this clever way that you can then take all of these fragments and can then take all of these fragments and can then take all of these fragments and then you can for sure from any given then you can for sure from any given then you can for sure from any given point get an ordering of everything in point get an ordering of everything in point get an ordering of everything in the world and you can say this goes in the world and you can say this goes in the world and you can say this goes in front of this goes in front of this all front of this goes in front of this all front of this goes in front of this all the way back to the last thing and the way back to the last thing and the way back to the last thing and that's super valuable for graphics where that's super valuable for graphics where that's super valuable for graphics where uh kind of a classic Graphics algorithm uh kind of a classic Graphics algorithm uh kind of a classic Graphics algorithm would be painters algorithm you paint would be painters algorithm you paint would be painters algorithm you paint the furthest thing first and then the the furthest thing first and then the the furthest thing first and then the next thing and then the next thing and next thing and then the next thing and next thing and then the next thing and then it comes up and it's all perfect then it comes up and it's all perfect then it comes up and it's all perfect for you uh that's slow because you don't for you uh that's slow because you don't for you uh that's slow because you don't want to have to have drawn everything want to have to have drawn everything want to have to have drawn everything like that but you can also flip it like that but you can also flip it like that but you can also flip it around and draw the closest thing to you around and draw the closest thing to you around and draw the closest thing to you and then if you're clever about it you and then if you're clever about it you and then if you're clever about it you can figure out what you need to draw can figure out what you need to draw can figure out what you need to draw that's visible beyond that and that's that's visible beyond that and that's that's visible beyond that and that's what bsp trees allow you to do yeah so what bsp trees allow you to do yeah so what bsp trees allow you to do yeah so it's combined with a bunch of other it's combined with a bunch of other it's combined with a bunch of other things but it gives you that ordering things but it gives you that ordering things but it gives you that ordering it's a clever way of doing things and I it's a clever way of doing things and I it's a clever way of doing things and I remember I had learned this from I one remember I had learned this from I one remember I had learned this from I one of my my Graphics Bible at the time a of my my Graphics Bible at the time a of my my Graphics Bible at the time a book called in vanam and again it was a book called in vanam and again it was a book called in vanam and again it was a different world back there there was a different world back there there was a different world back there there was a small integer number of books and this small integer number of books and this small integer number of books and this book number yeah this book that was it book number yeah this book that was it book number yeah this book that was it was big fat College textbook that I had was big fat College textbook that I had was big fat College textbook that I had you I had read through many times I you I had read through many times I you I had read through many times I didn't understand everything in it some didn't understand everything in it some didn't understand everything in it some of it wasn't useful to me but they had of it wasn't useful to me but they had of it wasn't useful to me but they had the little thing about uh finite

the little thing about uh finite the little thing about uh finite orderings of you draw a little t-shaped orderings of you draw a little t-shaped orderings of you draw a little t-shaped thing and you can say you can you can thing and you can say you can you can thing and you can say you can you can make a fixed ahead of time order from make a fixed ahead of time order from make a fixed ahead of time order from this and you can generalize this with this and you can generalize this with this and you can generalize this with the bsp trees and and I got a littleit the bsp trees and and I got a littleit the bsp trees and and I got a littleit more information about that it was kind more information about that it was kind more information about that it was kind of fun later while I was working on of fun later while I was working on of fun later while I was working on Quake I got to meet uh Bruce Naylor who Quake I got to meet uh Bruce Naylor who Quake I got to meet uh Bruce Naylor who is one of the original researchers that is one of the original researchers that is one of the original researchers that developed those Technologies I you know developed those Technologies I you know developed those Technologies I you know as for academic literature and that was as for academic literature and that was as for academic literature and that was kind of fun but I was very much just kind of fun but I was very much just kind of fun but I was very much just finding a tool that can help me solve finding a tool that can help me solve finding a tool that can help me solve what I was doing and I was using it in what I was doing and I was using it in what I was doing and I was using it in this very crude way in a two-dimensional this very crude way in a two-dimensional this very crude way in a two-dimensional fashion rather than the general 3D the fashion rather than the general 3D the fashion rather than the general 3D the Epsilon problems got much worse in quake Epsilon problems got much worse in quake Epsilon problems got much worse in quake and three dimensionals when things angle and three dimensionals when things angle and three dimensionals when things angle in every way but eventually I did sort in every way but eventually I did sort in every way but eventually I did sort out the sort out how to do it reliably out the sort out how to do it reliably out the sort out how to do it reliably on Doom there were still a few edge on Doom there were still a few edge on Doom there were still a few edge cases in Doom that were not absolutely cases in Doom that were not absolutely cases in Doom that were not absolutely perfect where they they even got perfect where they they even got perfect where they they even got terminologies in the communities like terminologies in the communities like terminologies in the communities like when you got to something where it was when you got to something where it was when you got to something where it was messed up it was a Hall of Mirrors messed up it was a Hall of Mirrors messed up it was a Hall of Mirrors effect because you'd sweep by and it effect because you'd sweep by and it effect because you'd sweep by and it wouldn't draw something there and you wouldn't draw something there and you wouldn't draw something there and you would just wind up with the the left would just wind up with the the left would just wind up with the the left over remnants as you flipped between the over remnants as you flipped between the over remnants as you flipped between the the two pages but bsp trees were the two pages but bsp trees were the two pages but bsp trees were important for it but it's again worth important for it but it's again worth important for it but it's again worth noting that uh after we did Doom our noting that uh after we did Doom our noting that uh after we did Doom our major competition came from um Ken major competition came from um Ken major competition came from um Ken Silverman and his build engine which was Silverman and his build engine which was Silverman and his build engine which was used for Duke Nukem 3D and some of the used for Duke Nukem 3D and some of the used for Duke Nukem 3D and some of the other games for 3D Realms and he used a other games for 3D Realms and he used a other games for 3D Realms and he used a completely different technology nothing completely different technology nothing completely different technology nothing to do with um with bsp trees so there's to do with um with bsp trees so there's to do with um with bsp trees so there's not just a one true way of doing things not just a one true way of doing things not just a one true way of doing things um there were critical things about to um there were critical things about to um there were critical things about to make any of those games fast you had to make any of those games fast you had to make any of those games fast you had to you had to separate your drawing into

you had to separate your drawing into you had to separate your drawing into you drew vertical lines and you drew you drew vertical lines and you drew you drew vertical lines and you drew horizontal lines just kind of changing horizontal lines just kind of changing horizontal lines just kind of changing exactly what you would draw with them exactly what you would draw with them exactly what you would draw with them that was critical for the Technologies that was critical for the Technologies that was critical for the Technologies uh at that time and like all the games uh at that time and like all the games uh at that time and like all the games that were kind of like that wound up that were kind of like that wound up that were kind of like that wound up doing something similar but there were doing something similar but there were doing something similar but there were still a bunch of other decisions that still a bunch of other decisions that still a bunch of other decisions that could be made and we made good enough could be made and we made good enough could be made and we made good enough decisions on everything on Doom we we decisions on everything on Doom we we decisions on everything on Doom we we brought in multiplayer significantly and brought in multiplayer significantly and brought in multiplayer significantly and it was our first game that was designed it was our first game that was designed it was our first game that was designed to be modified by the user Community to be modified by the user Community to be modified by the user Community where we had this whole setup of our wad where we had this whole setup of our wad where we had this whole setup of our wad files and P wads and things that people files and P wads and things that people files and P wads and things that people could could build with tools that we could could build with tools that we could could build with tools that we released to them and they eventually released to them and they eventually released to them and they eventually rewrote to be better than what we rewrote to be better than what we rewrote to be better than what we released but they could build things and released but they could build things and released but they could build things and you could add it to your game without you could add it to your game without you could add it to your game without destructively modifying it which is what destructively modifying it which is what destructively modifying it which is what you had to do in all the early games you you had to do in all the early games you you had to do in all the early games you literally hacked the the data files or literally hacked the the data files or literally hacked the the data files or the executable before while Doom was set the executable before while Doom was set the executable before while Doom was set up in this flexible way so that you up in this flexible way so that you up in this flexible way so that you could just say run the normal game with could just say run the normal game with could just say run the normal game with this added on on top and it would this added on on top and it would this added on on top and it would overlay just the things that you wanted overlay just the things that you wanted overlay just the things that you wanted to there would you say that Doom was to there would you say that Doom was to there would you say that Doom was kind of the first true 3D game that you kind of the first true 3D game that you kind of the first true 3D game that you created so no it's still Doom would created so no it's still Doom would created so no it's still Doom would usually be called a 2 and a half d game usually be called a 2 and a half d game usually be called a 2 and a half d game where it had three dimensional points on where it had three dimensional points on where it had three dimensional points on it and this is another one of these kind it and this is another one of these kind it and this is another one of these kind of pedantic things that people love to of pedantic things that people love to of pedantic things that people love to argue about about what was the first 3D argue about about what was the first 3D argue about about what was the first 3D game I still like I'm like every month game I still like I'm like every month game I still like I'm like every month probably I hear from somebody about well probably I hear from somebody about well probably I hear from somebody about well was Doom really a 3D game or something I was Doom really a 3D game or something I was Doom really a 3D game or something I and you know I give the the point where and you know I give the the point where and you know I give the the point where characters had three coordinates so you characters had three coordinates so you characters had three coordinates so you had like an X Y and Z the kadamian could

had like an X Y and Z the kadamian could had like an X Y and Z the kadamian could be coming in very high and come you know be coming in very high and come you know be coming in very high and come you know and come down towards you uh the walls and come down towards you uh the walls and come down towards you uh the walls had three coordinates on them so on some had three coordinates on them so on some had three coordinates on them so on some sense it's a 3D game engine but it was sense it's a 3D game engine but it was sense it's a 3D game engine but it was not a fully General 3D game engine you not a fully General 3D game engine you not a fully General 3D game engine you could not uh you could not build a could not uh you could not build a could not uh you could not build a pyramid in Doom because you couldn't pyramid in Doom because you couldn't pyramid in Doom because you couldn't make a sloped wall I which was slightly make a sloped wall I which was slightly make a sloped wall I which was slightly different where in that previous different where in that previous different where in that previous shadowcaster game I could have vertexes shadowcaster game I could have vertexes shadowcaster game I could have vertexes and have a sloped floor there but the and have a sloped floor there but the and have a sloped floor there but the changes that I made for Doom to get changes that I made for Doom to get changes that I made for Doom to get higher speed and a different set of higher speed and a different set of higher speed and a different set of flexibility traded away that ability but flexibility traded away that ability but flexibility traded away that ability but you literally couldn't make that you you literally couldn't make that you you literally couldn't make that you could not uh you could make different could not uh you could make different could not uh you could make different heights of uh passages but you could not heights of uh passages but you could not heights of uh passages but you could not make a bridge over another area you make a bridge over another area you make a bridge over another area you could not go over and above it so it could not go over and above it so it could not go over and above it so it still had some 2D limitations to it still had some 2D limitations to it still had some 2D limitations to it that's more about the building versus that's more about the building versus that's more about the building versus the actual experience because the the actual experience because the the actual experience because the experience is it felt like things would experience is it felt like things would experience is it felt like things would come at you but again you couldn't look come at you but again you couldn't look come at you but again you couldn't look up either I am right you know you could up either I am right you know you could up either I am right you know you could only pitch it was four degrees of only pitch it was four degrees of only pitch it was four degrees of freedom rather than six degrees of freedom rather than six degrees of freedom rather than six degrees of freedom you did not have the ability to freedom you did not have the ability to freedom you did not have the ability to tilt your head this way or pitch up and tilt your head this way or pitch up and tilt your head this way or pitch up and down so that takes us to Quake what was down so that takes us to Quake what was down so that takes us to Quake what was the leap there what was some fascinating the leap there what was some fascinating the leap there what was some fascinating technical challenges and there were a technical challenges and there were a technical challenges and there were a lot or not challenges but innovations lot or not challenges but innovations lot or not challenges but innovations that you've come up with so Quake was that you've come up with so Quake was that you've come up with so Quake was kind of the first thing where I did have kind of the first thing where I did have kind of the first thing where I did have to kind of come face to face with my to kind of come face to face with my to kind of come face to face with my limitations where it was the first thing limitations where it was the first thing limitations where it was the first thing where I really did kind of give it my where I really did kind of give it my where I really did kind of give it my all and still come up a little you know all and still come up a little you know all and still come up a little you know come up a little bit short in terms of come up a little bit short in terms of come up a little bit short in terms of what and when I wanted to to get it done

what and when I wanted to to get it done what and when I wanted to to get it done and the company ran had some serious and the company ran had some serious and the company ran had some serious stresses through the the whole project stresses through the the whole project stresses through the the whole project and we uh we bit off a lot so the things and we uh we bit off a lot so the things and we uh we bit off a lot so the things that we set out to do was it was going that we set out to do was it was going that we set out to do was it was going to be really a true 3D engine where it to be really a true 3D engine where it to be really a true 3D engine where it could do six degree of Freedom you could could do six degree of Freedom you could could do six degree of Freedom you could have all the all the viewpoints you have all the all the viewpoints you have all the all the viewpoints you could model anything it had a really could model anything it had a really could model anything it had a really remarkable new lighting model with the remarkable new lighting model with the remarkable new lighting model with the the surface caching and things that was the surface caching and things that was the surface caching and things that was one of those where it was starting to to one of those where it was starting to to one of those where it was starting to to do some things that they weren't doing do some things that they weren't doing do some things that they weren't doing even on the very high-end systems uh and even on the very high-end systems uh and even on the very high-end systems uh and it was going to be completely it was going to be completely it was going to be completely programmable uh in the modding programmable uh in the modding programmable uh in the modding standpoint where the thing that you standpoint where the thing that you standpoint where the thing that you couldn't do in Doom you could replace couldn't do in Doom you could replace couldn't do in Doom you could replace almost all of the media but you couldn't almost all of the media but you couldn't almost all of the media but you couldn't really change the game uh there were really change the game uh there were really change the game uh there were still some people that were doing the still some people that were doing the still some people that were doing the hex setting of The executable dehacked hex setting of The executable dehacked hex setting of The executable dehacked things where you could change a few things where you could change a few things where you could change a few things about rules and people made some things about rules and people made some things about rules and people made some early capture of the flag type things by early capture of the flag type things by early capture of the flag type things by hacking the executable but it wasn't hacking the executable but it wasn't hacking the executable but it wasn't really set out to do that Quake was really set out to do that Quake was really set out to do that Quake was going to have its own programming going to have its own programming going to have its own programming language that the game was going to be language that the game was going to be language that the game was going to be implemented in it and that would be able implemented in it and that would be able implemented in it and that would be able to be overwritten just like any of the to be overwritten just like any of the to be overwritten just like any of the media code was going to be data for that media code was going to be data for that media code was going to be data for that and you would be able to have expansion and you would be able to have expansion and you would be able to have expansion packs that changed fundamental things packs that changed fundamental things packs that changed fundamental things and mods and so on and the the and mods and so on and the the and mods and so on and the the multiplayer was going to be playable multiplayer was going to be playable multiplayer was going to be playable over the Internet it was going to over the Internet it was going to over the Internet it was going to support a client server rather than support a client server rather than support a client server rather than peer-to-peer so we had the possibility peer-to-peer so we had the possibility peer-to-peer so we had the possibility of supporting larger numbers of players of supporting larger numbers of players of supporting larger numbers of players in disperate locations with this full in disperate locations with this full in disperate locations with this full flexibility of the the programming flexibility of the the programming flexibility of the the programming overrides with full six degree of

overrides with full six degree of overrides with full six degree of Freedom modeling and viewing and with Freedom modeling and viewing and with Freedom modeling and viewing and with this fancy new light mapped um kind of this fancy new light mapped um kind of this fancy new light mapped um kind of surface caching side it was a lot and surface caching side it was a lot and surface caching side it was a lot and this was one of those things that if I this was one of those things that if I this was one of those things that if I could go back and tell I you know tell could go back and tell I you know tell could go back and tell I you know tell younger me to do something differently younger me to do something differently younger me to do something differently it would have been to split those it would have been to split those it would have been to split those Innovations up into two phases in two Innovations up into two phases in two Innovations up into two phases in two separate games what would be phase one separate games what would be phase one separate games what would be phase one and phase two so it probably would have and phase two so it probably would have and phase two so it probably would have been taking the Doom rendering engine been taking the Doom rendering engine been taking the Doom rendering engine and bringing in uh the tcpip uh client and bringing in uh the tcpip uh client and bringing in uh the tcpip uh client server focusing on the multiplayer and server focusing on the multiplayer and server focusing on the multiplayer and the uh the Quake sea or would have been the uh the Quake sea or would have been the uh the Quake sea or would have been Doom sea programming language there so I Doom sea programming language there so I Doom sea programming language there so I would have split that into programming would have split that into programming would have split that into programming language and networking with the same language and networking with the same language and networking with the same Doom engine rather than forcing Doom engine rather than forcing Doom engine rather than forcing everybody to go towards the the pen you everybody to go towards the the pen you everybody to go towards the the pen you know the Quake engine which really meant know the Quake engine which really meant know the Quake engine which really meant getting a Pentium you know while it ran getting a Pentium you know while it ran getting a Pentium you know while it ran on a 486 it was not a great experience on a 486 it was not a great experience on a 486 it was not a great experience there we could have made more people there we could have made more people there we could have made more people happier and gotten two games done in 50% happier and gotten two games done in 50% happier and gotten two games done in 50% more time I so speaking of people more time I so speaking of people more time I so speaking of people happier our mutual friend Joe Rogan it happier our mutual friend Joe Rogan it happier our mutual friend Joe Rogan it seems like his the the most important uh seems like his the the most important uh seems like his the the most important uh moment of his life is is uh centered moment of his life is is uh centered moment of his life is is uh centered around quck around quck around quck so is it was a definitive um part of his so is it was a definitive um part of his so is it was a definitive um part of his life so would he agree with your uh life so would he agree with your uh life so would he agree with your uh thinking that they should split uh so he thinking that they should split uh so he thinking that they should split uh so he as a person who loves quake and played as a person who loves quake and played as a person who loves quake and played Quake a lot would he agree that you Quake a lot would he agree that you Quake a lot would he agree that you should have done the Doom Engine with should have done the Doom Engine with should have done the Doom Engine with and focus on the multiplayer for phase and focus on the multiplayer for phase and focus on the multiplayer for phase one uh or in your looking back it is is

one uh or in your looking back it is is one uh or in your looking back it is is the the 3D world that Quake created was the the 3D world that Quake created was the the 3D world that Quake created was also fundamental to the the I you know I also fundamental to the the I you know I also fundamental to the the I you know I would say that what would have happened would say that what would have happened would say that what would have happened is you would have had a a doom looking is you would have had a a doom looking is you would have had a a doom looking but Quake feeling uh but Quake feeling uh but Quake feeling uh game eight months earlier and then maybe game eight months earlier and then maybe game eight months earlier and then maybe six months after Quake actually shipped six months after Quake actually shipped six months after Quake actually shipped then there would have been the full then there would have been the full then there would have been the full running on of Pentium um six degree of running on of Pentium um six degree of running on of Pentium um six degree of Freedom Graphics engine type things Freedom Graphics engine type things Freedom Graphics engine type things there so it's not that it wouldn't have there so it's not that it wouldn't have there so it's not that it wouldn't have wouldn't have been there it would have wouldn't have been there it would have wouldn't have been there it would have been something amazingly cool earlier been something amazingly cool earlier been something amazingly cool earlier and then something even cooler somewhat and then something even cooler somewhat and then something even cooler somewhat later where I would much rather in have later where I would much rather in have later where I would much rather in have gone and done two one-year development gone and done two one-year development gone and done two one-year development efforts uh cycle them through I be a efforts uh cycle them through I be a efforts uh cycle them through I be a little more pragmatic about that rather little more pragmatic about that rather little more pragmatic about that rather than killing us ourselves on the whole than killing us ourselves on the whole than killing us ourselves on the whole Quake development but I say it's Quake development but I say it's Quake development but I say it's obviously things worked out well in the obviously things worked out well in the obviously things worked out well in the end but looking back and saying how end but looking back and saying how end but looking back and saying how would I optimize and do things would I optimize and do things would I optimize and do things differently that did seem to be a clear differently that did seem to be a clear differently that did seem to be a clear case where uh going ahead and we had case where uh going ahead and we had case where uh going ahead and we had enormous momentum on Doom you know we enormous momentum on Doom you know we enormous momentum on Doom you know we did Doom 2 as the uh kind of commercial did Doom 2 as the uh kind of commercial did Doom 2 as the uh kind of commercial boxed version after our shareware boxed version after our shareware boxed version after our shareware success with the original but we could success with the original but we could success with the original but we could have just made another Doom game adding have just made another Doom game adding have just made another Doom game adding those new features in it would have been those new features in it would have been those new features in it would have been huge we would have learned all the same huge we would have learned all the same huge we would have learned all the same lessons but faster and it would have lessons but faster and it would have lessons but faster and it would have given six degree of freedom and Pentium given six degree of freedom and Pentium given six degree of freedom and Pentium class systems a little bit more time to class systems a little bit more time to class systems a little bit more time to get mainstream because we did cut out a get mainstream because we did cut out a get mainstream because we did cut out a lot of people with the the hardware lot of people with the the hardware lot of people with the the hardware requirements for Quake was there any

requirements for Quake was there any requirements for Quake was there any dark moments for you personally dark moments for you personally dark moments for you personally psychologically in psychologically in psychologically in having um in um having such harsh having um in um having such harsh having um in um having such harsh deadlines and having to Sol me difficult deadlines and having to Sol me difficult deadlines and having to Sol me difficult technical technical technical challenges so I've never really challenges so I've never really challenges so I've never really had really dark black places I mean I it had really dark black places I mean I it had really dark black places I mean I it I can't necessarily put myself in anyone I can't necessarily put myself in anyone I can't necessarily put myself in anyone else's shoes but I understand a lot of else's shoes but I understand a lot of else's shoes but I understand a lot of people have you know have significant people have you know have significant people have you know have significant challenges with kind of their their challenges with kind of their their challenges with kind of their their mental health and well-being and I've mental health and well-being and I've mental health and well-being and I've been I've been super stressed I've been been I've been super stressed I've been been I've been super stressed I've been you know unhappy as a teenager in you know unhappy as a teenager in you know unhappy as a teenager in various ways but I've never I've never various ways but I've never I've never various ways but I've never I've never really gone to a very dark place I just really gone to a very dark place I just really gone to a very dark place I just seem to seem to seem to be largely immune to what really wrecks be largely immune to what really wrecks be largely immune to what really wrecks people I mean I've had plenty of time people I mean I've had plenty of time people I mean I've had plenty of time when I'm very unhappy and miserable when I'm very unhappy and miserable when I'm very unhappy and miserable about something but it's never hit me about something but it's never hit me about something but it's never hit me like you know I believe it winds up like you know I believe it winds up like you know I believe it winds up hitting some other people I've borne up hitting some other people I've borne up hitting some other people I've borne up well under whatever stresses have I you well under whatever stresses have I you well under whatever stresses have I you know have kind of fallen on me and I've know have kind of fallen on me and I've know have kind of fallen on me and I've always coped best on that when all I always coped best on that when all I always coped best on that when all I need to do is is usually just kind of be need to do is is usually just kind of be need to do is is usually just kind of be down on my work I I pull myself out of down on my work I I pull myself out of down on my work I I pull myself out of whatever hole I might be slipping into whatever hole I might be slipping into whatever hole I might be slipping into by actually making progress I I mean by actually making progress I I mean by actually making progress I I mean maybe if I was in a position where I was maybe if I was in a position where I was maybe if I was in a position where I was never able to make that progress I could never able to make that progress I could never able to make that progress I could have slid down further but I've always have slid down further but I've always have slid down further but I've always been in a place where okay a little bit been in a place where okay a little bit been in a place where okay a little bit more work maybe I'm in a tough spot here more work maybe I'm in a tough spot here more work maybe I'm in a tough spot here but I I always know if I just keep but I I always know if I just keep but I I always know if I just keep pushing eventually I break through and I

pushing eventually I break through and I pushing eventually I break through and I make progress I feel good about what I'm make progress I feel good about what I'm make progress I feel good about what I'm doing um and that's been enough for me doing um and that's been enough for me doing um and that's been enough for me so far in my life have you seen in in so far in my life have you seen in in so far in my life have you seen in in the the the distance uh like um you know ideas of distance uh like um you know ideas of distance uh like um you know ideas of depression or contemplating suicide have depression or contemplating suicide have depression or contemplating suicide have you seen those things far so what was you seen those things far so what was you seen those things far so what was interesting when when I was a teenager I interesting when when I was a teenager I interesting when when I was a teenager I was you know I I was probably on some was you know I I was probably on some was you know I I was probably on some level of troubled youth I was unhappy level of troubled youth I was unhappy level of troubled youth I was unhappy most of my teenage you know years I you most of my teenage you know years I you most of my teenage you know years I you know I really I wanted to be on my own know I really I wanted to be on my own know I really I wanted to be on my own doing programming all the time I you doing programming all the time I you doing programming all the time I you know as soon as I was 18 19 even though know as soon as I was 18 19 even though know as soon as I was 18 19 even though I was poor I was doing exactly what I I was poor I was doing exactly what I I was poor I was doing exactly what I wanted and I was very happy but high wanted and I was very happy but high wanted and I was very happy but high school was not a great time for me and I school was not a great time for me and I school was not a great time for me and I I had a conversation with like the I had a conversation with like the I had a conversation with like the school counselor and they're kind of school counselor and they're kind of school counselor and they're kind of running their script it's like okay it's running their script it's like okay it's running their script it's like okay it's kind of a weird kid here let's carefully kind of a weird kid here let's carefully kind of a weird kid here let's carefully probe around it's like you know do you probe around it's like you know do you probe around it's like you know do you ever think about ending it all I'm like ever think about ending it all I'm like ever think about ending it all I'm like no of course not never not at all I this no of course not never not at all I this no of course not never not at all I this is temporary things are going to be is temporary things are going to be is temporary things are going to be better um and and that's always been better um and and that's always been better um and and that's always been kind of the case for me and obviously kind of the case for me and obviously kind of the case for me and obviously that's not that way for everyone and that's not that way for everyone and that's not that way for everyone and other people do react differently and other people do react differently and other people do react differently and what was your um what was your escape what was your um what was your escape what was your um what was your escape from the troubled youth like from the troubled youth like from the troubled youth like uh uh you know uh uh you know uh uh you know music uh Video Games books how did you music uh Video Games books how did you music uh Video Games books how did you escape from a world that's full of escape from a world that's full of escape from a world that's full of Cruelty and suffering and that's absurd Cruelty and suffering and that's absurd Cruelty and suffering and that's absurd yeah I mean I I was not you know I was yeah I mean I I was not you know I was yeah I mean I I was not you know I was not victim of Cruelty and suffering it's not victim of Cruelty and suffering it's not victim of Cruelty and suffering it's like I was an unhappy somewhat petulant

like I was an unhappy somewhat petulant like I was an unhappy somewhat petulant youth in you know in my point where I youth in you know in my point where I youth in you know in my point where I you know I'm not putting myself up with you know I'm not putting myself up with you know I'm not putting myself up with anybody else's suffering but I was anybody else's suffering but I was anybody else's suffering but I was unhappy objectively and I the things unhappy objectively and I the things unhappy objectively and I the things that I I did that very much that I I did that very much that I I did that very much characterized my childhood were I had I characterized my childhood were I had I characterized my childhood were I had I books comic books Dungeons and Dragons books comic books Dungeons and Dragons books comic books Dungeons and Dragons arcade games video games like some of my arcade games video games like some of my arcade games video games like some of my my fondest childhood memories are the my fondest childhood memories are the my fondest childhood memories are the convenience stores the 7-Elevens and convenience stores the 7-Elevens and convenience stores the 7-Elevens and quick trips because they had a spinner quick trips because they had a spinner quick trips because they had a spinner rack of comic books and they had a rack of comic books and they had a rack of comic books and they had a little side room with two or three video little side room with two or three video little side room with two or three video games arcade games in it and that was uh games arcade games in it and that was uh games arcade games in it and that was uh that was very much my happy place you that was very much my happy place you that was very much my happy place you know if I could I get my comic books and know if I could I get my comic books and know if I could I get my comic books and uh if I could go to a library and you uh if I could go to a library and you uh if I could go to a library and you know go through those the little 000000 know go through those the little 000000 know go through those the little 000000 section where computer books were section where computer books were section where computer books were supposed to be and there were a few sad supposed to be and there were a few sad supposed to be and there were a few sad little books there but still just being little books there but still just being little books there but still just being able to sit down and go through that and able to sit down and go through that and able to sit down and go through that and I read you know I read a ridiculous I read you know I read a ridiculous I read you know I read a ridiculous number of books both fiction and number of books both fiction and number of books both fiction and non-fiction as a teenager and I you know non-fiction as a teenager and I you know non-fiction as a teenager and I you know as I my Rebel my rebelling in high as I my Rebel my rebelling in high as I my Rebel my rebelling in high school was just sitting there with my school was just sitting there with my school was just sitting there with my nose in a book ignoring the class nose in a book ignoring the class nose in a book ignoring the class through lots of it and teachers had a through lots of it and teachers had a through lots of it and teachers had a range of reactions to that some more uh range of reactions to that some more uh range of reactions to that some more uh more accepting of it than more accepting of it than more accepting of it than others I'm with you on that so let us others I'm with you on that so let us others I'm with you on that so let us return to Quake for a bit with the return to Quake for a bit with the return to Quake for a bit with the technical challenges what what technical challenges what what technical challenges what what um everything together from the from the um everything together from the from the um everything together from the from the networking to the the graphics what are networking to the the graphics what are networking to the the graphics what are some things you remember that were that some things you remember that were that some things you remember that were that were Innovations you had to come up with were Innovations you had to come up with were Innovations you had to come up with in order to make it all happen yeah so in order to make it all happen yeah so in order to make it all happen yeah so there were a bunch of things on Quake

there were a bunch of things on Quake there were a bunch of things on Quake where on the one hand the idea that I where on the one hand the idea that I where on the one hand the idea that I built my own progam pramming language to built my own progam pramming language to built my own progam pramming language to implement the game in looking back and I implement the game in looking back and I implement the game in looking back and I try to tell people it's like every every try to tell people it's like every every try to tell people it's like every every highlevel programmer sometime in their highlevel programmer sometime in their highlevel programmer sometime in their career goes through and they invent career goes through and they invent career goes through and they invent their own language it just seems to be a their own language it just seems to be a their own language it just seems to be a thing that's pretty broadly done people thing that's pretty broadly done people thing that's pretty broadly done people be like I'm going to go write a computer be like I'm going to go write a computer be like I'm going to go write a computer programming language and I you know I programming language and I you know I programming language and I you know I don't regret having done it but after don't regret having done it but after don't regret having done it but after that I I switched from quak C my quirky that I I switched from quak C my quirky that I I switched from quak C my quirky little I pseudo objectoriented entity little I pseudo objectoriented entity little I pseudo objectoriented entity oriented language there Quake 2 went oriented language there Quake 2 went oriented language there Quake 2 went back to using dlls with c and then qu back to using dlls with c and then qu back to using dlls with c and then qu Quake 3 I implemented my own C Quake 3 I implemented my own C Quake 3 I implemented my own C interpreter or compiler which was a much interpreter or compiler which was a much interpreter or compiler which was a much smarter thing to do that I should have smarter thing to do that I should have smarter thing to do that I should have done originally for Quake but building done originally for Quake but building done originally for Quake but building my own language was an experience I my own language was an experience I my own language was an experience I learned a lot from that I and then there learned a lot from that I and then there learned a lot from that I and then there was a generation of game programmers was a generation of game programmers was a generation of game programmers that learned programming with quak C that learned programming with quak C that learned programming with quak C which I feel kind of bad about because which I feel kind of bad about because which I feel kind of bad about because you know I mean we give JavaScript a lot you know I mean we give JavaScript a lot you know I mean we give JavaScript a lot of crap but I quake C was nothing to of crap but I quake C was nothing to of crap but I quake C was nothing to write home about there uh but it was it write home about there uh but it was it write home about there uh but it was it allowed people to do magical things you allowed people to do magical things you allowed people to do magical things you get into programming not because you get into programming not because you get into programming not because you love the you know the BNF syntax of a love the you know the BNF syntax of a love the you know the BNF syntax of a language it's because the language lets language it's because the language lets language it's because the language lets you do something that you cared about you do something that you cared about you do something that you cared about and here is very much you could do and here is very much you could do and here is very much you could do something in a whole beautiful something in a whole beautiful something in a whole beautiful three-dimensional world and the idea and three-dimensional world and the idea and three-dimensional world and the idea and the fact that the code for the game was the fact that the code for the game was the fact that the code for the game was out there you could say I like the out there you could say I like the out there you could say I like the shotgun but I want it to be more badass shotgun but I want it to be more badass shotgun but I want it to be more badass you go in there and say okay now it does you go in there and say okay now it does you go in there and say okay now it does 200 points damage and then you go around 200 points damage and then you go around 200 points damage and then you go around with a big grin on your face blowing up with a big grin on your face blowing up with a big grin on your face blowing up monsters all over the game so yeah it's

monsters all over the game so yeah it's monsters all over the game so yeah it's I you know it is not uh what I would do I you know it is not uh what I would do I you know it is not uh what I would do today going back with that language but today going back with that language but today going back with that language but that was a big part of it learning about that was a big part of it learning about that was a big part of it learning about the networking stuff I because it's the networking stuff I because it's the networking stuff I because it's interesting where I learned these things interesting where I learned these things interesting where I learned these things by reading books so I would get a book by reading books so I would get a book by reading books so I would get a book on networking find something I read all on networking find something I read all on networking find something I read all about it and learn okay packets they can about it and learn okay packets they can about it and learn okay packets they can be you know out of order or lost or be you know out of order or lost or be you know out of order or lost or duplicated these are all the things that duplicated these are all the things that duplicated these are all the things that can theoretically happen to packets so I can theoretically happen to packets so I can theoretically happen to packets so I wind up spending all this time thinking wind up spending all this time thinking wind up spending all this time thinking about how do we deal about all of that about how do we deal about all of that about how do we deal about all of that and it turns out of course in the real and it turns out of course in the real and it turns out of course in the real world those are things that yes world those are things that yes world those are things that yes theoretically can happen with multiple theoretically can happen with multiple theoretically can happen with multiple routes but they really aren't things routes but they really aren't things routes but they really aren't things that your that your that your 99.999% of your packets have to deal 99.999% of your packets have to deal 99.999% of your packets have to deal with um so there was learning with um so there was learning with um so there was learning experiences about uh lots of that like experiences about uh lots of that like experiences about uh lots of that like why when TCP is appropriate versus UDP why when TCP is appropriate versus UDP why when TCP is appropriate versus UDP and and how if you do things in UDP you and and how if you do things in UDP you and and how if you do things in UDP you wind up Reinventing TCP badly in almost wind up Reinventing TCP badly in almost wind up Reinventing TCP badly in almost all cases so you know there's there's all cases so you know there's there's all cases so you know there's there's good Arguments for using both for good Arguments for using both for good Arguments for using both for different game techn different parts of different game techn different parts of different game techn different parts of the game process transitioning from the game process transitioning from the game process transitioning from level to level and all but the uh the level to level and all but the uh the level to level and all but the uh the graphics were the Showcase of what what graphics were the Showcase of what what graphics were the Showcase of what what Quake was all about it was this Graphics Quake was all about it was this Graphics Quake was all about it was this Graphics technology that nobody had seen there technology that nobody had seen there technology that nobody had seen there and it was a while before you know there and it was a while before you know there and it was a while before you know there were competitive things out there and it were competitive things out there and it were competitive things out there and it went a long time internally really not went a long time internally really not went a long time internally really not working where we were even building working where we were even building working where we were even building levels where uh the game just was not at levels where uh the game just was not at levels where uh the game just was not at all shippable with large fractions of all shippable with large fractions of all shippable with large fractions of the world like disappearing not being the world like disappearing not being the world like disappearing not being there I or being really slow in various

there I or being really slow in various there I or being really slow in various parts of it and it was this act of Fai parts of it and it was this act of Fai parts of it and it was this act of Fai that's like I think I'm going to be able that's like I think I'm going to be able that's like I think I'm going to be able to fix this I think I'm going to be able to fix this I think I'm going to be able to fix this I think I'm going to be able to make this work um and lots of stuff to make this work um and lots of stuff to make this work um and lots of stuff changed where the level designers would changed where the level designers would changed where the level designers would build something and have to throw it build something and have to throw it build something and have to throw it away as something fundamental and the away as something fundamental and the away as something fundamental and the the kind of Graphics or level technology the kind of Graphics or level technology the kind of Graphics or level technology changed and the uh so there were two big changed and the uh so there were two big changed and the uh so there were two big things that contributed to making it things that contributed to making it things that contributed to making it possible at that time frame um two new possible at that time frame um two new possible at that time frame um two new things there was certainly hardcore things there was certainly hardcore things there was certainly hardcore optimized low-level Assembly Language optimized low-level Assembly Language optimized low-level Assembly Language and this was where I had hired Michael and this was where I had hired Michael and this was where I had hired Michael AB crash away from Microsoft and he had AB crash away from Microsoft and he had AB crash away from Microsoft and he had been one of my early Inspirations where been one of my early Inspirations where been one of my early Inspirations where that back in the soft dis days the that back in the soft dis days the that back in the soft dis days the library of magazines that they had uh library of magazines that they had uh library of magazines that they had uh some of my most treasured ones were some of my most treasured ones were some of my most treasured ones were Michael AB br's articles in Dr Do's Michael AB br's articles in Dr Do's Michael AB br's articles in Dr Do's journal and it was it was amazing after journal and it was it was amazing after journal and it was it was amazing after all of our success in Doom we were able all of our success in Doom we were able all of our success in Doom we were able to kind of hit him up and say hey we'd to kind of hit him up and say hey we'd to kind of hit him up and say hey we'd like you to come work at ID software and like you to come work at ID software and like you to come work at ID software and he was in the senior technical role at he was in the senior technical role at he was in the senior technical role at Microsoft and um you know and he was on Microsoft and um you know and he was on Microsoft and um you know and he was on track for and this was right when track for and this was right when track for and this was right when Microsoft was starting to take off and I Microsoft was starting to take off and I Microsoft was starting to take off and I did eventually you know convince him did eventually you know convince him did eventually you know convince him that what we were doing was going to be that what we were doing was going to be that what we were doing was going to be really amazing with Quake It was going really amazing with Quake It was going really amazing with Quake It was going to it was going to be something nobody to it was going to be something nobody to it was going to be something nobody had seen before it had these aspects of had seen before it had these aspects of had seen before it had these aspects of what we were talking about we had what we were talking about we had what we were talking about we had metaverse talk back then we you know we metaverse talk back then we you know we metaverse talk back then we you know we had read snow crash and we were we knew had read snow crash and we were we knew had read snow crash and we were we knew about this and uh Michael was I was big about this and uh Michael was I was big about this and uh Michael was I was big into the science fiction and we would into the science fiction and we would into the science fiction and we would talk about all that and kind of spin talk about all that and kind of spin talk about all that and kind of spin this tale and it was some of the same this tale and it was some of the same this tale and it was some of the same conversations that we have today about conversations that we have today about conversations that we have today about the metaverse about how you could have

the metaverse about how you could have the metaverse about how you could have different areas linked together by different areas linked together by different areas linked together by portals and you could have user portals and you could have user portals and you could have user generated content and changing out all generated content and changing out all generated content and changing out all of these things so you really work of these things so you really work of these things so you really work created the metaverse Qui and we we created the metaverse Qui and we we created the metaverse Qui and we we talked about things like used to be talked about things like used to be talked about things like used to be advertised as a virtual reality advertised as a virtual reality advertised as a virtual reality experience you know that was the first experience you know that was the first experience you know that was the first wave of virtual reality was in the late wave of virtual reality was in the late wave of virtual reality was in the late 80s and early 90s you had like the 80s and early 90s you had like the 80s and early 90s you had like the lawnmower man I you know movie and you lawnmower man I you know movie and you lawnmower man I you know movie and you had time in Newsweek talking about the had time in Newsweek talking about the had time in Newsweek talking about the early vpl headsets and of course that early vpl headsets and of course that early vpl headsets and of course that cratered so hard that people didn't want cratered so hard that people didn't want cratered so hard that people didn't want to look at virtu viral reality for to look at virtu viral reality for to look at virtu viral reality for decades afterwards where uh it was just decades afterwards where uh it was just decades afterwards where uh it was just it was smok in mirrors it was not real it was smok in mirrors it was not real it was smok in mirrors it was not real in the sense that you could actually do in the sense that you could actually do in the sense that you could actually do something real and valuable with it but something real and valuable with it but something real and valuable with it but uh but still we had that kind of common uh but still we had that kind of common uh but still we had that kind of common set of talking points and we were set of talking points and we were set of talking points and we were talking about what these games could uh talking about what these games could uh talking about what these games could uh could become and how you'd like to see could become and how you'd like to see could become and how you'd like to see people building all of these creative people building all of these creative people building all of these creative things because we were seeing an things because we were seeing an things because we were seeing an explosion of work with doom at that time explosion of work with doom at that time explosion of work with doom at that time where people were doing amazingly cool where people were doing amazingly cool where people were doing amazingly cool things like we saw cooler levels than we things like we saw cooler levels than we things like we saw cooler levels than we had built coming out of the user had built coming out of the user had built coming out of the user community and then people finding ways community and then people finding ways community and then people finding ways to you know change the the characters in to you know change the the characters in to you know change the the characters in different ways and it was great and we different ways and it was great and we different ways and it was great and we knew what we were doing in Quake was knew what we were doing in Quake was knew what we were doing in Quake was removing those last things there was removing those last things there was removing those last things there was some quirky things with a couple of the some quirky things with a couple of the some quirky things with a couple of the data types that didn't work right for data types that didn't work right for data types that didn't work right for overriding and then and then the core overriding and then and then the core overriding and then and then the core thing about the programming model and I thing about the programming model and I thing about the programming model and I was definitely going to hit all of those was definitely going to hit all of those was definitely going to hit all of those in Quake um but the the graphic side of in Quake um but the the graphic side of in Quake um but the the graphic side of it was um you was still I knew what I it was um you was still I knew what I it was um you was still I knew what I wanted to do and it was one of these

wanted to do and it was one of these wanted to do and it was one of these hubris things where it's like well so hubris things where it's like well so hubris things where it's like well so far I've been able to kind of kick far I've been able to kind of kick far I've been able to kind of kick everything that I set out to go do uh everything that I set out to go do uh everything that I set out to go do uh but Quake was definitely a little bit but Quake was definitely a little bit but Quake was definitely a little bit more than could be comfortably chewed at more than could be comfortably chewed at more than could be comfortably chewed at that point and uh but Michael was one of that point and uh but Michael was one of that point and uh but Michael was one of the one of the strongest programmers and the one of the strongest programmers and the one of the strongest programmers and Graphics programmers that I knew and he Graphics programmers that I knew and he Graphics programmers that I knew and he was one of the people that I trusted to was one of the people that I trusted to was one of the people that I trusted to to write assembly code you know better to write assembly code you know better to write assembly code you know better than I could and there's there's a few than I could and there's there's a few than I could and there's there's a few people that I can point to about things people that I can point to about things people that I can point to about things like this where I'm a worldclass like this where I'm a worldclass like this where I'm a worldclass Optimizer I mean I make things go fast Optimizer I mean I make things go fast Optimizer I mean I make things go fast but I recognize there's a number of but I recognize there's a number of but I recognize there's a number of people that can write tighter assembly people that can write tighter assembly people that can write tighter assembly code tighter simd code or tighter Cuda code tighter simd code or tighter Cuda code tighter simd code or tighter Cuda code than you know than I can write um code than you know than I can write um code than you know than I can write um you know my best strengths are little you know my best strengths are little you know my best strengths are little bit more at the system level I mean I'm bit more at the system level I mean I'm bit more at the system level I mean I'm good at all of that but the most good at all of that but the most good at all of that but the most leverage comes from making the decisions leverage comes from making the decisions leverage comes from making the decisions that are a little bit higher up where that are a little bit higher up where that are a little bit higher up where you figure out how to change your large you figure out how to change your large you figure out how to change your large scale problems so that these lower level scale problems so that these lower level scale problems so that these lower level problems are easier to do or it makes it problems are easier to do or it makes it problems are easier to do or it makes it possible to do them in a um in a possible to do them in a um in a possible to do them in a um in a uniquely fast way so most of my you know uniquely fast way so most of my you know uniquely fast way so most of my you know my big wins in a lot of ways from all my big wins in a lot of ways from all my big wins in a lot of ways from all the way from the early games through you the way from the early games through you the way from the early games through you know through VR and the Aerospace work know through VR and the Aerospace work know through VR and the Aerospace work that I'm doing and or did and hopefully that I'm doing and or did and hopefully that I'm doing and or did and hopefully the AI work that I'm working on now is the AI work that I'm working on now is the AI work that I'm working on now is finding an angle on something that means finding an angle on something that means finding an angle on something that means you trade off something that you maybe you trade off something that you maybe you trade off something that you maybe think you need but it turns out you think you need but it turns out you think you need but it turns out you don't need and by making a sacrifice in don't need and by making a sacrifice in don't need and by making a sacrifice in one place you can get big advantages in one place you can get big advantages in one place you can get big advantages in another place is it clear at which level

another place is it clear at which level another place is it clear at which level of the system those big advantages can of the system those big advantages can of the system those big advantages can be gained it's not always clear and be gained it's not always clear and be gained it's not always clear and that's why the thing that that I try to that's why the thing that that I try to that's why the thing that that I try to make one of my core values and I I prti make one of my core values and I I prti make one of my core values and I I prti to a lot of people is trying to know the to a lot of people is trying to know the to a lot of people is trying to know the entire stack you know trying to see entire stack you know trying to see entire stack you know trying to see through everything that happens and it's through everything that happens and it's through everything that happens and it's almost impossible on like the web almost impossible on like the web almost impossible on like the web browser level of things where there's so browser level of things where there's so browser level of things where there's so many levels to it but you should at many levels to it but you should at many levels to it but you should at least understand what they all are even least understand what they all are even least understand what they all are even if you can't understand all the if you can't understand all the if you can't understand all the performance characteristics at each performance characteristics at each performance characteristics at each level but it goes all the way down to level but it goes all the way down to level but it goes all the way down to literally the hardware so what does the literally the hardware so what does the literally the hardware so what does the what is this chip capable of then what what is this chip capable of then what what is this chip capable of then what is this software that you're writing is this software that you're writing is this software that you're writing capable of and then what this capable of and then what this capable of and then what this architecture you put on top of that then architecture you put on top of that then architecture you put on top of that then the ecosystem around it all the people the ecosystem around it all the people the ecosystem around it all the people that are that are working on it so there that are that are working on it so there that are that are working on it so there are there are all these decisions and are there are all these decisions and are there are all these decisions and they're never made in a globally optimal they're never made in a globally optimal they're never made in a globally optimal way but sometimes you can drive a thread way but sometimes you can drive a thread way but sometimes you can drive a thread of global optimality through it you of global optimality through it you of global optimality through it you can't look at everything it's too can't look at everything it's too can't look at everything it's too complicated but sometimes you can step complicated but sometimes you can step complicated but sometimes you can step back up and make a different decision back up and make a different decision back up and make a different decision and we kind of went through this on the and we kind of went through this on the and we kind of went through this on the graphics side on Quake where I you in graphics side on Quake where I you in graphics side on Quake where I you in some ways it was kind of bad where some ways it was kind of bad where some ways it was kind of bad where Michael would spend his time writing Michael would spend his time writing Michael would spend his time writing like i' I'd rough out the basic routines like i' I'd rough out the basic routines like i' I'd rough out the basic routines like okay here's our span rasterizer and like okay here's our span rasterizer and like okay here's our span rasterizer and he would spend a month writing this you he would spend a month writing this you he would spend a month writing this you know beautiful cycle optimized I piece know beautiful cycle optimized I piece know beautiful cycle optimized I piece of Assembly Language that does you know of Assembly Language that does you know of Assembly Language that does you know does what I asked it to do and he did it does what I asked it to do and he did it does what I asked it to do and he did it faster than like my original code would faster than like my original code would faster than like my original code would do or probably what I would be able to do or probably what I would be able to do or probably what I would be able to do even if I had spent that month on it

do even if I had spent that month on it do even if I had spent that month on it uh but then we'd have some cases when uh but then we'd have some cases when uh but then we'd have some cases when I'd be like okay well I figured out at I'd be like okay well I figured out at I'd be like okay well I figured out at this higher level instead of drawing this higher level instead of drawing this higher level instead of drawing these in a painters order here I do a these in a painters order here I do a these in a painters order here I do a span buffer and it cuts out 30% or 40% span buffer and it cuts out 30% or 40% span buffer and it cuts out 30% or 40% of all of these pixels but it means you of all of these pixels but it means you of all of these pixels but it means you need to rewrite kind of this interface need to rewrite kind of this interface need to rewrite kind of this interface of all of that and I could tell that of all of that and I could tell that of all of that and I could tell that wore on him a little bit but in the end wore on him a little bit but in the end wore on him a little bit but in the end it was it was the right thing to do it was it was the right thing to do it was it was the right thing to do where we wound up changing that where we wound up changing that where we wound up changing that rasterization approach and we wound up rasterization approach and we wound up rasterization approach and we wound up with a super optimized assembly language with a super optimized assembly language with a super optimized assembly language uh core Loop and then a good system uh core Loop and then a good system uh core Loop and then a good system around it which minimized how much that around it which minimized how much that around it which minimized how much that had to be called and so in order to be had to be called and so in order to be had to be called and so in order to be able to do this kind of system level able to do this kind of system level able to do this kind of system level thinking whether we're talking about uh thinking whether we're talking about uh thinking whether we're talking about uh game development game development game development Aerospace nuclear energy AI VR you have Aerospace nuclear energy AI VR you have Aerospace nuclear energy AI VR you have to be able to understand the hardware to be able to understand the hardware to be able to understand the hardware the the the lowlevel software the high level lowlevel software the high level lowlevel software the high level software the design decisions the whole software the design decisions the whole software the design decisions the whole thing the the the full stack of yeah and thing the the the full stack of yeah and thing the the the full stack of yeah and that's where a lot of these things that's where a lot of these things that's where a lot of these things become possible when you're really when become possible when you're really when become possible when you're really when you're bringing the future forward I you're bringing the future forward I you're bringing the future forward I mean there's a pace that everything just mean there's a pace that everything just mean there's a pace that everything just kind of Glides towards where we have a kind of Glides towards where we have a kind of Glides towards where we have a lot of progress that's happening at such lot of progress that's happening at such lot of progress that's happening at such a diff so many different ways you kind a diff so many different ways you kind a diff so many different ways you kind of slide towards progress just left of of slide towards progress just left of of slide towards progress just left of your own programs just get faster for a your own programs just get faster for a your own programs just get faster for a while it wasn't clear if they were going while it wasn't clear if they were going while it wasn't clear if they were going to get fatter more than they get quicker to get fatter more than they get quicker to get fatter more than they get quicker than they get faster and it cancels out than they get faster and it cancels out than they get faster and it cancels out but it is clear now and retrospect no but it is clear now and retrospect no but it is clear now and retrospect no programs just get faster and have gotten programs just get faster and have gotten programs just get faster and have gotten faster for a long time but if you want faster for a long time but if you want faster for a long time but if you want to do something like back at that to do something like back at that to do something like back at that original uh talking about scrolling

original uh talking about scrolling original uh talking about scrolling games say what this needs to be five games say what this needs to be five games say what this needs to be five times faster well we can wait six years times faster well we can wait six years times faster well we can wait six years and just it'll naturally get that much and just it'll naturally get that much and just it'll naturally get that much faster at that time or you come up with faster at that time or you come up with faster at that time or you come up with some really clever way of doing it so some really clever way of doing it so some really clever way of doing it so there are those opportunities like that there are those opportunities like that there are those opportunities like that in a whole bunch of different areas now in a whole bunch of different areas now in a whole bunch of different areas now most programmers don't need to to be most programmers don't need to to be most programmers don't need to to be thinking about that there's not that thinking about that there's not that thinking about that there's not that many you know there's a lot of many you know there's a lot of many you know there's a lot of opportunities for this but it's not opportunities for this but it's not opportunities for this but it's not everyone's work a day type stuff so everyone's work a day type stuff so everyone's work a day type stuff so everyone doesn't have to know how all everyone doesn't have to know how all everyone doesn't have to know how all these things work they don't have to these things work they don't have to these things work they don't have to know how their compiler Works how you know how their compiler Works how you know how their compiler Works how you know the processor chip manages cach know the processor chip manages cach know the processor chip manages cach eviction and all these low-level things eviction and all these low-level things eviction and all these low-level things but sometimes there are powerful but sometimes there are powerful but sometimes there are powerful opportunities that you can look at and opportunities that you can look at and opportunities that you can look at and say we can bring the future five years say we can bring the future five years say we can bring the future five years faster you know we can do something that faster you know we can do something that faster you know we can do something that wouldn't it be great if we could do this wouldn't it be great if we could do this wouldn't it be great if we could do this well we can do it today if we make a well we can do it today if we make a well we can do it today if we make a certain set of decisions and it is in certain set of decisions and it is in certain set of decisions and it is in some ways smoke in mirrors where you say some ways smoke in mirrors where you say some ways smoke in mirrors where you say it's like Doom was a lot of smoking it's like Doom was a lot of smoking it's like Doom was a lot of smoking mirrors where people thought it was more mirrors where people thought it was more mirrors where people thought it was more capable than it actually was but we capable than it actually was but we capable than it actually was but we picked the right smoking mirrors to picked the right smoking mirrors to picked the right smoking mirrors to deploy in the game where by doing this deploy in the game where by doing this deploy in the game where by doing this people will think that it's more General people will think that it's more General people will think that it's more General we're going to amaze them with what we're going to amaze them with what we're going to amaze them with what they've got here and they won't notice they've got here and they won't notice they've got here and they won't notice that it doesn't do these other things so that it doesn't do these other things so that it doesn't do these other things so smart decision making at that point smart decision making at that point smart decision making at that point that's where that that kind of global that's where that that kind of global that's where that that kind of global holistic top down view uh can work and holistic top down view uh can work and holistic top down view uh can work and I'm I'm I'm I'm really a strong believer that I'm really a strong believer that I'm really a strong believer that technology should be sitting at that

technology should be sitting at that technology should be sitting at that table having those discussions because table having those discussions because table having those discussions because you do have cases where you say well you you do have cases where you say well you you do have cases where you say well you want to be the Jonathan Ivy or whatever want to be the Jonathan Ivy or whatever want to be the Jonathan Ivy or whatever where it's a a pure design solution and where it's a a pure design solution and where it's a a pure design solution and that's I in some cases now where you that's I in some cases now where you that's I in some cases now where you truly have almost infinite resources truly have almost infinite resources truly have almost infinite resources like if you're trying to do a a like if you're trying to do a a like if you're trying to do a a scrolling game on the PC now you don't scrolling game on the PC now you don't scrolling game on the PC now you don't even have to talk to a technology person even have to talk to a technology person even have to talk to a technology person you can just have uh you know any intern you can just have uh you know any intern you can just have uh you know any intern can make that go run as fast as it needs can make that go run as fast as it needs can make that go run as fast as it needs to there and it can be completely design to there and it can be completely design to there and it can be completely design based but if you're trying to do based but if you're trying to do based but if you're trying to do something that's hard either that can't something that's hard either that can't something that's hard either that can't be done for resources like VR on a be done for resources like VR on a be done for resources like VR on a mobile chipset or that we don't even mobile chipset or that we don't even mobile chipset or that we don't even know how to do yet like artificial know how to do yet like artificial know how to do yet like artificial general intelligence it's probably going general intelligence it's probably going general intelligence it's probably going to be a matter of coming at it from an to be a matter of coming at it from an to be a matter of coming at it from an angle like I mean for AGI we have some angle like I mean for AGI we have some angle like I mean for AGI we have some of like some of the hutter principles of like some of the hutter principles of like some of the hutter principles about how you can you know Aire some of about how you can you know Aire some of about how you can you know Aire some of that there are theoretical ways that you that there are theoretical ways that you that there are theoretical ways that you can say this is the optimal learning can say this is the optimal learning can say this is the optimal learning algorithm that can solve everything but algorithm that can solve everything but algorithm that can solve everything but it's completely practical you know you it's completely practical you know you it's completely practical you know you just can't do that so clearly you have just can't do that so clearly you have just can't do that so clearly you have to make some concessions for general to make some concessions for general to make some concessions for general intelligence and nobody knows what the intelligence and nobody knows what the intelligence and nobody knows what the right ones are yet so people are taking right ones are yet so people are taking right ones are yet so people are taking different angles of attack I hope I've different angles of attack I hope I've different angles of attack I hope I've got something clever to come up with uh got something clever to come up with uh got something clever to come up with uh in that space it's been surprising to me in that space it's been surprising to me in that space it's been surprising to me and I think it perhaps it is a principle and I think it perhaps it is a principle and I think it perhaps it is a principle of progress that smoke and mirrors of progress that smoke and mirrors of progress that smoke and mirrors somehow is the way you build the future somehow is the way you build the future somehow is the way you build the future you kind of you kind of fake it till you you kind of you kind of fake it till you you kind of you kind of fake it till you make it and you almost always make it make it and you almost always make it make it and you almost always make it and I think that's going to be the way and I think that's going to be the way and I think that's going to be the way we achieve AGI that's going to be the we achieve AGI that's going to be the we achieve AGI that's going to be the way we build uh Consciousness into our

way we build uh Consciousness into our way we build uh Consciousness into our machines is um there's you know machines is um there's you know machines is um there's you know philosophers debate about the touring philosophers debate about the touring philosophers debate about the touring test is essentially about faking it till test is essentially about faking it till test is essentially about faking it till you make it you start by faking it and I you make it you start by faking it and I you make it you start by faking it and I think that always leads to making it think that always leads to making it think that always leads to making it because if look at history arguments because if look at history arguments because if look at history arguments when as soon as people start talking when as soon as people start talking when as soon as people start talking about qualia and Consciousness and about qualia and Consciousness and about qualia and Consciousness and Chinese rooms and things it's like I Chinese rooms and things it's like I Chinese rooms and things it's like I just check out I just don't think just check out I just don't think just check out I just don't think there's any value in those conversations there's any value in those conversations there's any value in those conversations it's just like go ahead tell me it's not it's just like go ahead tell me it's not it's just like go ahead tell me it's not going to work I'm G to do my best to try going to work I'm G to do my best to try going to work I'm G to do my best to try to make it work anyways I don't know if to make it work anyways I don't know if to make it work anyways I don't know if you work with legged robots of a bunch you work with legged robots of a bunch you work with legged robots of a bunch of these um they they make they sure as of these um they they make they sure as of these um they they make they sure as heck make me feel like they're conscious heck make me feel like they're conscious heck make me feel like they're conscious uh in a certain way that's not here uh in a certain way that's not here uh in a certain way that's not here today but is um you could see the kernel today but is um you could see the kernel today but is um you could see the kernel it's like uh the the the flame the it's like uh the the the flame the it's like uh the the the flame the beginnings of a flame we don't have line beginnings of a flame we don't have line beginnings of a flame we don't have line of sight but there's glimmerings of of sight but there's glimmerings of of sight but there's glimmerings of light in the distance for all of these light in the distance for all of these light in the distance for all of these things yeah I'm hearing murmuring in a things yeah I'm hearing murmuring in a things yeah I'm hearing murmuring in a distant room um well let me ask you a distant room um well let me ask you a distant room um well let me ask you a human question here you you've uh in the human question here you you've uh in the human question here you you've uh in the game design space youve you've done a game design space youve you've done a game design space youve you've done a lot of incredible work throughout but in lot of incredible work throughout but in lot of incredible work throughout but in terms of game design you have changed terms of game design you have changed terms of game design you have changed the world and there's a few people the world and there's a few people the world and there's a few people around you that did the same so famously around you that did the same so famously around you that did the same so famously there's some animosity there's much love there's some animosity there's much love there's some animosity there's much love but there's some animosity between you but there's some animosity between you but there's some animosity between you and John Romero what is at the core of and John Romero what is at the core of and John Romero what is at the core of that animosity and human tension and so that animosity and human tension and so that animosity and human tension and so there really hasn't been I for a long there really hasn't been I for a long there really hasn't been I for a long time and even at the beginning it's like

time and even at the beginning it's like time and even at the beginning it's like yes I am I did push Romero out of the yes I am I did push Romero out of the yes I am I did push Romero out of the company and and this is one of the company and and this is one of the company and and this is one of the things that I look back if I could go things that I look back if I could go things that I look back if I could go back telling my my younger self uh some back telling my my younger self uh some back telling my my younger self uh some advice about things the original advice about things the original advice about things the original founding uh kind of corporate structure founding uh kind of corporate structure founding uh kind of corporate structure of ID of ID of ID software really led to a bunch of software really led to a bunch of software really led to a bunch of problems we started off with us as equal problems we started off with us as equal problems we started off with us as equal partners and we had a buy sell agreement partners and we had a buy sell agreement partners and we had a buy sell agreement because we didn't want Outsiders to be because we didn't want Outsiders to be because we didn't want Outsiders to be telling us what to do inside the company telling us what to do inside the company telling us what to do inside the company and that did lead to a bunch of the and that did lead to a bunch of the and that did lead to a bunch of the problems where I was sitting here going problems where I was sitting here going problems where I was sitting here going it's like all right I'm I'm working it's like all right I'm I'm working it's like all right I'm I'm working harder than anyone I'm doing these harder than anyone I'm doing these harder than anyone I'm doing these Technologies you know nobody's done Technologies you know nobody's done Technologies you know nobody's done before but we're all equal partners and before but we're all equal partners and before but we're all equal partners and then I see you know somebody that's not then I see you know somebody that's not then I see you know somebody that's not working as hard and I and it's I mean I working as hard and I and it's I mean I working as hard and I and it's I mean I can't say I was the most mature about can't say I was the most mature about can't say I was the most mature about that I was you know 20 something years that I was you know 20 something years that I was you know 20 something years old and I am and it did it did bother me old and I am and it did it did bother me old and I am and it did it did bother me when I'm like everybody okay we need to when I'm like everybody okay we need to when I'm like everybody okay we need to all pull together and we've done it all pull together and we've done it all pull together and we've done it before everybody we know we can do this before everybody we know we can do this before everybody we know we can do this if we get together and we grind it all if we get together and we grind it all if we get together and we grind it all out but not everybody wanted to do that out but not everybody wanted to do that out but not everybody wanted to do that for for all time you know and I was the for for all time you know and I was the for for all time you know and I was the youngest one of the the crowd there I I youngest one of the the crowd there I I youngest one of the the crowd there I I had different sets of uh kind of had different sets of uh kind of had different sets of uh kind of backgrounds and motivations and left at backgrounds and motivations and left at backgrounds and motivations and left at that point where it was I all right that point where it was I all right that point where it was I all right either everybody has to be contributing either everybody has to be contributing either everybody has to be contributing like up to this level or they need to like up to this level or they need to like up to this level or they need to get pushed out was not I that was not a get pushed out was not I that was not a get pushed out was not I that was not a great situation and I look back on it great situation and I look back on it great situation and I look back on it and no that we pushed people out of the

and no that we pushed people out of the and no that we pushed people out of the company that could have contributed uh company that could have contributed uh company that could have contributed uh if there was a different framework for if there was a different framework for if there was a different framework for them and the modern kind of Silicon them and the modern kind of Silicon them and the modern kind of Silicon Valley like let your stock vest over a Valley like let your stock vest over a Valley like let your stock vest over a time period and maybe it's non- voting time period and maybe it's non- voting time period and maybe it's non- voting stock and all those different things we stock and all those different things we stock and all those different things we knew nothing about any of that I mean we knew nothing about any of that I mean we knew nothing about any of that I mean we we didn't know what we were doing in we didn't know what we were doing in we didn't know what we were doing in terms of corporate structure or anything terms of corporate structure or anything terms of corporate structure or anything so if you think the framework was so if you think the framework was so if you think the framework was different some of the human tension different some of the human tension different some of the human tension could have been a little bit of it could have been a little bit of it could have been a little bit of it almost certainly would have I I mean I almost certainly would have I I mean I almost certainly would have I I mean I look back at that and and it's like even look back at that and and it's like even look back at that and and it's like even trying to summon up in my mind it's like trying to summon up in my mind it's like trying to summon up in my mind it's like I know I was really really angry about I know I was really really angry about I know I was really really angry about um you know like Romero not working as um you know like Romero not working as um you know like Romero not working as hard as I wanted him to work or not hard as I wanted him to work or not hard as I wanted him to work or not carrying his load on the design for carrying his load on the design for carrying his load on the design for Quake and coming up with things there Quake and coming up with things there Quake and coming up with things there but you know he was definitely doing but you know he was definitely doing but you know he was definitely doing things he made some of the best levels things he made some of the best levels things he made some of the best levels there he was working with our I some of there he was working with our I some of there he was working with our I some of our external teams like Raven on the our external teams like Raven on the our external teams like Raven on the licensing side of things but um you know licensing side of things but um you know licensing side of things but um you know but there were differences of opinion but there were differences of opinion but there were differences of opinion about it but he landed you know right on about it but he landed you know right on about it but he landed you know right on his feet he went he got $20 million from his feet he went he got $20 million from his feet he went he got $20 million from idos to go do ion storm and he got to do idos to go do ion storm and he got to do idos to go do ion storm and he got to do things his way and spun up three teams things his way and spun up three teams things his way and spun up three teams simultaneously because that was always simultaneously because that was always simultaneously because that was always one of the one of the challenging things one of the one of the challenging things one of the one of the challenging things in at ID where we were doing these in at ID where we were doing these in at ID where we were doing these single string one project after another single string one project after another single string one project after another and I think some of them you know wanted and I think some of them you know wanted and I think some of them you know wanted to grow the company more and I didn't to grow the company more and I didn't to grow the company more and I didn't because I knew people that were saying because I knew people that were saying because I knew people that were saying that oh companies turned to when that oh companies turned to when that oh companies turned to when you got 50 employees I it's just a you got 50 employees I it's just a you got 50 employees I it's just a different world there and I loved our different world there and I loved our different world there and I loved our little dozen people working on the little dozen people working on the little dozen people working on the projects but you can look at it and say

projects but you can look at it and say projects but you can look at it and say well business realities matter it's like well business realities matter it's like well business realities matter it's like you're super successful here and we you're super successful here and we you're super successful here and we could we could take a swing and a miss could we could take a swing and a miss could we could take a swing and a miss on something but you do it a couple on something but you do it a couple on something but you do it a couple times and you're out of luck uh there's times and you're out of luck uh there's times and you're out of luck uh there's there's a reason companies try to have there's a reason companies try to have there's a reason companies try to have multiple teams running at one time um multiple teams running at one time um multiple teams running at one time um and so that was again something I didn't and so that was again something I didn't and so that was again something I didn't really appreciate back then so if you really appreciate back then so if you really appreciate back then so if you look past all that you did create some look past all that you did create some look past all that you did create some amazing things together what did you amazing things together what did you amazing things together what did you love about John Romero what did you love about John Romero what did you love about John Romero what did you respect and appreciate about him what respect and appreciate about him what respect and appreciate about him what did you admire about him what did you did you admire about him what did you did you admire about him what did you learn from him when I met him he was the learn from him when I met him he was the learn from him when I met him he was the coolest programmer I had ever met I you coolest programmer I had ever met I you coolest programmer I had ever met I you know he had done all of this stuff he know he had done all of this stuff he know he had done all of this stuff he had he had made all of these games he had he had made all of these games he had he had made all of these games he had worked at I you know one of the had worked at I you know one of the had worked at I you know one of the companies that I thought was the coolest companies that I thought was the coolest companies that I thought was the coolest at origin systems and he knew all this at origin systems and he knew all this at origin systems and he knew all this stuff he made things happen fast and he stuff he made things happen fast and he stuff he made things happen fast and he could was also kind of a polymath about could was also kind of a polymath about could was also kind of a polymath about this where he could do he made his own this where he could do he made his own this where he could do he made his own he drew his own art he made his own he drew his own art he made his own he drew his own art he made his own levels as well as um you know he worked levels as well as um you know he worked levels as well as um you know he worked on sound design systems on top of on sound design systems on top of on sound design systems on top of actually being a really good programmer actually being a really good programmer actually being a really good programmer and we had you know we went through a and we had you know we went through a and we had you know we went through a little it was kind of fun where one of little it was kind of fun where one of little it was kind of fun where one of the early things that we did where there the early things that we did where there the early things that we did where there was kind of the Young Buck bit going in was kind of the Young Buck bit going in was kind of the Young Buck bit going in where I was you uh the new guy and he where I was you uh the new guy and he where I was you uh the new guy and he was the kind of the he was the top man was the kind of the he was the top man was the kind of the he was the top man programmer at the soft disk area and programmer at the soft disk area and programmer at the soft disk area and eventually we had sort of a challenge eventually we had sort of a challenge eventually we had sort of a challenge over the weekend that we were going to over the weekend that we were going to over the weekend that we were going to like race to to implement this game to like race to to implement this game to like race to to implement this game to Port one of our PC games back down to Port one of our PC games back down to Port one of our PC games back down to the Apple 2 and that was where we the Apple 2 and that was where we the Apple 2 and that was where we finally kind of became clear it's like finally kind of became clear it's like finally kind of became clear it's like okay CarMax stands a little bit apart on okay CarMax stands a little bit apart on okay CarMax stands a little bit apart on the programming side of things and uh

the programming side of things and uh the programming side of things and uh but Romero then very gracefully moved but Romero then very gracefully moved but Romero then very gracefully moved into well he'll work on the tools he'll into well he'll work on the tools he'll into well he'll work on the tools he'll work on the systems uh do some of the work on the systems uh do some of the work on the systems uh do some of the game design stuff as well as game design stuff as well as game design stuff as well as contributing on uh starting to lead the contributing on uh starting to lead the contributing on uh starting to lead the design aspects of a lot of things so he design aspects of a lot of things so he design aspects of a lot of things so he was you know enormously valuable in the was you know enormously valuable in the was you know enormously valuable in the early stuff and so so much of Doom uh early stuff and so so much of Doom uh early stuff and so so much of Doom uh and even Quake have his stamp on it in a and even Quake have his stamp on it in a and even Quake have his stamp on it in a lot of ways but um you know he wasn't at lot of ways but um you know he wasn't at lot of ways but um you know he wasn't at the same level of focus that that I the same level of focus that that I the same level of focus that that I brought to the the work that we were brought to the the work that we were brought to the the work that we were doing there and he really did I we hit doing there and he really did I we hit doing there and he really did I we hit such a degree of such a degree of such a degree of success it was all in the Press about success it was all in the Press about success it was all in the Press about that the the Rockstar game programmers that the the Rockstar game programmers that the the Rockstar game programmers and I mean it's the Beatles problem yeah and I mean it's the Beatles problem yeah and I mean it's the Beatles problem yeah I mean you know he ate it up and he did I mean you know he ate it up and he did I mean you know he ate it up and he did personify there was the whole game personify there was the whole game personify there was the whole game developers with you know with Ferraris developers with you know with Ferraris developers with you know with Ferraris that that we had there and I thought that that we had there and I thought that that we had there and I thought that you know that led to some some that you know that led to some some that you know that led to some some challenges there but so much of the uh challenges there but so much of the uh challenges there but so much of the uh you know the stuff that was great in the you know the stuff that was great in the you know the stuff that was great in the games did come from him and I would games did come from him and I would games did come from him and I would certainly not take that away from him certainly not take that away from him certainly not take that away from him and even after uh after we parted ways and even after uh after we parted ways and even after uh after we parted ways and he took his swing with uh with idos and he took his swing with uh with idos and he took his swing with uh with idos in some ways he was like he was ahead of in some ways he was like he was ahead of in some ways he was like he was ahead of the curve with mobile gaming as well the curve with mobile gaming as well the curve with mobile gaming as well where uh one of his companies after idos where uh one of his companies after idos where uh one of his companies after idos was working on uh feature phone game was working on uh feature phone game was working on uh feature phone game development and I wound up doing some of development and I wound up doing some of development and I wound up doing some of that uh just before the iPhone crossing that uh just before the iPhone crossing that uh just before the iPhone crossing over into the iPhone phase there and over into the iPhone phase there and over into the iPhone phase there and that was something that clearly did turn that was something that clearly did turn that was something that clearly did turn out to be a huge thing although he was out to be a huge thing although he was out to be a huge thing although he was he was too early for what he was working he was too early for what he was working he was too early for what he was working on at that time you know we've had uh

on at that time you know we've had uh on at that time you know we've had uh pretty you know cordial relationships pretty you know cordial relationships pretty you know cordial relationships where I was happy to to talk with him where I was happy to to talk with him where I was happy to to talk with him anytime I'd run into him at at a anytime I'd run into him at at a anytime I'd run into him at at a conference I actually had some other conference I actually had some other conference I actually had some other people just say it's like oh you people just say it's like oh you people just say it's like oh you shouldn't you know you shouldn't go over shouldn't you know you shouldn't go over shouldn't you know you shouldn't go over there and give him the time of day or there and give him the time of day or there and give him the time of day or felt that masters of Doom was I you know felt that masters of Doom was I you know felt that masters of Doom was I you know like portray played things up in a way like portray played things up in a way like portray played things up in a way that I shouldn't be too happy with but that I shouldn't be too happy with but that I shouldn't be too happy with but I'm I'm okay with all of that and you I'm I'm okay with all of that and you I'm I'm okay with all of that and you still got love in your heart yeah I mean still got love in your heart yeah I mean still got love in your heart yeah I mean I just talked with him I like last year I just talked with him I like last year I just talked with him I like last year or I guess it was even this year about or I guess it was even this year about or I guess it was even this year about mentioning that I'm going off doing this mentioning that I'm going off doing this mentioning that I'm going off doing this AI stuff I'm I'm going big into AI stuff I'm I'm going big into AI stuff I'm I'm going big into artificial intelligence and he had a b artificial intelligence and he had a b artificial intelligence and he had a b bunch of ideas for how AI is going to bunch of ideas for how AI is going to bunch of ideas for how AI is going to play into gaming and you know asked if I play into gaming and you know asked if I play into gaming and you know asked if I was interested in collaborating and it's was interested in collaborating and it's was interested in collaborating and it's not in line with what with what I'm not in line with what with what I'm not in line with what with what I'm doing but I do you know I wish almost doing but I do you know I wish almost doing but I do you know I wish almost everyone the best I mean I I know I may everyone the best I mean I I know I may everyone the best I mean I I know I may not have parted on the best of terms not have parted on the best of terms not have parted on the best of terms with I you know with some people but I with I you know with some people but I with I you know with some people but I was thrilled to see Tom Hall I writing was thrilled to see Tom Hall I writing was thrilled to see Tom Hall I writing VR games now he wrote working on a game VR games now he wrote working on a game VR games now he wrote working on a game called demio which is really an awesome called demio which is really an awesome called demio which is really an awesome VR game it's like Dungeons and Dragons VR game it's like Dungeons and Dragons VR game it's like Dungeons and Dragons we all used to play Dungeons and Dragons we all used to play Dungeons and Dragons we all used to play Dungeons and Dragons together that was one of the things that together that was one of the things that together that was one of the things that was what we did on Sundays in the early was what we did on Sundays in the early was what we did on Sundays in the early it days I would dungeon master and it days I would dungeon master and it days I would dungeon master and they'd all play and I you know so it they'd all play and I you know so it they'd all play and I you know so it really made me smile seeing Tom involved really made me smile seeing Tom involved really made me smile seeing Tom involved with an RPG G in virtual with an RPG G in virtual with an RPG G in virtual reality you were the CTO of oculus VR reality you were the CTO of oculus VR reality you were the CTO of oculus VR since 2013 and maybe less than your since 2013 and maybe less than your since 2013 and maybe less than your involvement a bit in uh involvement a bit in uh involvement a bit in uh 2019 Oculus was acquired by Facebook 2019 Oculus was acquired by Facebook 2019 Oculus was acquired by Facebook Neta in

Neta in Neta in 2014 you've spoken brilliantly about 2014 you've spoken brilliantly about 2014 you've spoken brilliantly about both the lowlevel details the both the lowlevel details the both the lowlevel details the experimental design and the big picture experimental design and the big picture experimental design and the big picture vision of virtual reality let's let me vision of virtual reality let's let me vision of virtual reality let's let me ask you about the uh the metaverse the ask you about the uh the metaverse the ask you about the uh the metaverse the big question here both philosophically big question here both philosophically big question here both philosophically and technically Tech Al how hard is it and technically Tech Al how hard is it and technically Tech Al how hard is it to build the metaverse what is the to build the metaverse what is the to build the metaverse what is the metaverse in your view you started with metaverse in your view you started with metaverse in your view you started with discussing and thinking about Quake is a discussing and thinking about Quake is a discussing and thinking about Quake is a kind of a kind of a kind of a metaverse as you think about it today metaverse as you think about it today metaverse as you think about it today what is the what is the what is the metaverse the thing that could create metaverse the thing that could create metaverse the thing that could create this compelling user value this this compelling user value this this compelling user value this experience that will change the world experience that will change the world experience that will change the world and how hard is it to build it so the and how hard is it to build it so the and how hard is it to build it so the term comes from Neil Stevenson's book term comes from Neil Stevenson's book term comes from Neil Stevenson's book snow crash which many of us had read snow crash which many of us had read snow crash which many of us had read back in the 90s it was one of those kind back in the 90s it was one of those kind back in the 90s it was one of those kind of formative books of formative books of formative books and there was this sense that and there was this sense that and there was this sense that the the possibilities and kind of the the the possibilities and kind of the the the possibilities and kind of the the freedom and unlimited capabilities the freedom and unlimited capabilities the freedom and unlimited capabilities to build a virtual world that that does to build a virtual world that that does to build a virtual world that that does whatever you want whatever you ask of it whatever you want whatever you ask of it whatever you want whatever you ask of it has been a powerful draw for generations has been a powerful draw for generations has been a powerful draw for generations of developers you know game developers of developers you know game developers of developers you know game developers specifically and people that are specifically and people that are specifically and people that are thinking about more uh more general thinking about more uh more general thinking about more uh more general purpose applications so we were talking purpose applications so we were talking purpose applications so we were talking about that back in the doom and Quake about that back in the doom and Quake about that back in the doom and Quake days about how do you wind up with an days about how do you wind up with an days about how do you wind up with an interconnected set of worlds that you interconnected set of worlds that you interconnected set of worlds that you kind of visit from one to another and as kind of visit from one to another and as kind of visit from one to another and as web pages were becoming a thing you web pages were becoming a thing you web pages were becoming a thing you start thinking about how what is the start thinking about how what is the start thinking about how what is the interactive kind of 3D based equivalent interactive kind of 3D based equivalent interactive kind of 3D based equivalent of this and there were a lot of really of this and there were a lot of really of this and there were a lot of really bad takes you had you like vermal then bad takes you had you like vermal then bad takes you had you like vermal then virtual reality markup languages and

virtual reality markup languages and virtual reality markup languages and there's aspects like that that that came there's aspects like that that that came there's aspects like that that that came from people saying well what would what from people saying well what would what from people saying well what would what kind of capabilities should we develop kind of capabilities should we develop kind of capabilities should we develop to to enable this and that kind of to to enable this and that kind of to to enable this and that kind of capability first work has usually not capability first work has usually not capability first work has usually not panned out very well uh on the other panned out very well uh on the other panned out very well uh on the other hand we have successful games that hand we have successful games that hand we have successful games that started with things like doom and Quake started with things like doom and Quake started with things like doom and Quake and communities that formed around those and communities that formed around those and communities that formed around those and uh whether it was server lists in and uh whether it was server lists in and uh whether it was server lists in the early days or you know literal the early days or you know literal the early days or you know literal portaling between different games and portaling between different games and portaling between different games and then modern things that are on then modern things that are on then modern things that are on completely different order of magnitude completely different order of magnitude completely different order of magnitude like Minecraft and fortnite that have like Minecraft and fortnite that have like Minecraft and fortnite that have 100 million plus users um you know I 100 million plus users um you know I 100 million plus users um you know I still think that that's the right way to still think that that's the right way to still think that that's the right way to go to build the metaverse is you build go to build the metaverse is you build go to build the metaverse is you build something that it's amazing that people something that it's amazing that people something that it's amazing that people love and people wind up spending all love and people wind up spending all love and people wind up spending all their time in uh because it's awesome their time in uh because it's awesome their time in uh because it's awesome and you expand the capabilities of that and you expand the capabilities of that and you expand the capabilities of that so even if it's a very basic experience so even if it's a very basic experience so even if it's a very basic experience as long as people Minecraft is Minecraft as long as people Minecraft is Minecraft as long as people Minecraft is Minecraft is an amazing case study in so many is an amazing case study in so many is an amazing case study in so many things where what's been able to be done things where what's been able to be done things where what's been able to be done with that is really with that is really with that is really enlightening and there are other cases enlightening and there are other cases enlightening and there are other cases where like right now Roblox is basically where like right now Roblox is basically where like right now Roblox is basically a game construction kit aimed at kids a game construction kit aimed at kids a game construction kit aimed at kids and that was a capability first play and and that was a capability first play and and that was a capability first play and it's achieving scale that's on the same it's achieving scale that's on the same it's achieving scale that's on the same order of those things so it's not order of those things so it's not order of those things so it's not impossible but my preferred bet would be impossible but my preferred bet would be impossible but my preferred bet would be you make something amazing that people you make something amazing that people you make something amazing that people love and you make it better and better love and you make it better and better love and you make it better and better and that's where I could say we could and that's where I could say we could and that's where I could say we could have gone back and followed a path kind have gone back and followed a path kind have gone back and followed a path kind of like that in the early days if you of like that in the early days if you of like that in the early days if you just kind of take the same game whether

just kind of take the same game whether just kind of take the same game whether it's when Activision demonstrated that it's when Activision demonstrated that it's when Activision demonstrated that you could make Call of Duty every year you could make Call of Duty every year you could make Call of Duty every year and not only is it not bad people kind and not only is it not bad people kind and not only is it not bad people kind of love it and it's a it's very of love it and it's a it's very of love it and it's a it's very profitable the idea that you could have profitable the idea that you could have profitable the idea that you could have taken something like that it take a taken something like that it take a taken something like that it take a great game release a new version every great game release a new version every great game release a new version every year that lets the capabilities grow and year that lets the capabilities grow and year that lets the capabilities grow and expand to start saying it's like okay expand to start saying it's like okay expand to start saying it's like okay it's a game about running around and it's a game about running around and it's a game about running around and shooting things but now you can have uh shooting things but now you can have uh shooting things but now you can have uh bring your media into it you can uh add bring your media into it you can uh add bring your media into it you can uh add Persistence of social sense sign of Persistence of social sense sign of Persistence of social sense sign of signs of life or whatever you want to signs of life or whatever you want to signs of life or whatever you want to add to it uh I still think that's you add to it uh I still think that's you add to it uh I still think that's you know quite a good uh position to take know quite a good uh position to take know quite a good uh position to take and I think that while meta is doing a and I think that while meta is doing a and I think that while meta is doing a Bottoms Up capability approach with Bottoms Up capability approach with Bottoms Up capability approach with Horizon worlds where it's a fairly Horizon worlds where it's a fairly Horizon worlds where it's a fairly general purpose creators can build general purpose creators can build general purpose creators can build whatever they want in their sort of whatever they want in their sort of whatever they want in their sort of thing I you know it's it's hard to thing I you know it's it's hard to thing I you know it's it's hard to compare and compete with something like compare and compete with something like compare and compete with something like fortnite which also has enormous amounts fortnite which also has enormous amounts fortnite which also has enormous amounts of creativity even though it was not of creativity even though it was not of creativity even though it was not designed originally as a general purpose designed originally as a general purpose designed originally as a general purpose sort of thing so there's we have sort of thing so there's we have sort of thing so there's we have examples on both sides me personally I examples on both sides me personally I examples on both sides me personally I would have bet on uh trying to do would have bet on uh trying to do would have bet on uh trying to do entertainment valuable destination first entertainment valuable destination first entertainment valuable destination first and expanding from there and expanding from there and expanding from there so can you imagine the thing that will so can you imagine the thing that will so can you imagine the thing that will be kind of if if we look back a couple be kind of if if we look back a couple be kind of if if we look back a couple of centuries from now and you think of centuries from now and you think of centuries from now and you think about the about the about the experiences that marked the singularity experiences that marked the singularity experiences that marked the singularity the transition in where most of our the transition in where most of our the transition in where most of our world moved into virtual reality what do

world moved into virtual reality what do world moved into virtual reality what do you think those experiences will look you think those experiences will look you think those experiences will look like so I do think it's going to be kind like so I do think it's going to be kind like so I do think it's going to be kind of like the way the web slowly took over of like the way the web slowly took over of like the way the web slowly took over where you're you're the the Frogg in the where you're you're the the Frogg in the where you're you're the the Frogg in the pot of water that's slowly heating up pot of water that's slowly heating up pot of water that's slowly heating up where having lived through all of that I where having lived through all of that I where having lived through all of that I remember when it was shocking to start remember when it was shocking to start remember when it was shocking to start seeing uh seeing the first website seeing uh seeing the first website seeing uh seeing the first website address on a billboard when you're like address on a billboard when you're like address on a billboard when you're like hey my computer world is in infecting hey my computer world is in infecting hey my computer world is in infecting the real world you know this is the real world you know this is the real world you know this is spreading out uh in some way but there spreading out uh in some way but there spreading out uh in some way but there still when you look back and say well still when you look back and say well still when you look back and say well what what made the web take off and it what what made the web take off and it what what made the web take off and it wasn't a big bang sort of moment there wasn't a big bang sort of moment there wasn't a big bang sort of moment there it was a bunch of little things that it was a bunch of little things that it was a bunch of little things that turned out not to even be the things turned out not to even be the things turned out not to even be the things that are relevant now now that brought that are relevant now now that brought that are relevant now now that brought them into it so well I wonder if from I them into it so well I wonder if from I them into it so well I wonder if from I mean like you said you're not a mean like you said you're not a mean like you said you're not a historian so maybe there's a historian historian so maybe there's a historian historian so maybe there's a historian out there that could really identify out there that could really identify out there that could really identify that moment data driven way it could be that moment data driven way it could be that moment data driven way it could be like Myspace or something like that like Myspace or something like that like Myspace or something like that maybe the first major social network maybe the first major social network maybe the first major social network that really reached that really reached that really reached into non-geek world or something like into non-geek world or something like into non-geek world or something like that I think that's kind of the fallacy that I think that's kind of the fallacy that I think that's kind of the fallacy of historians though looking for some of of historians though looking for some of of historians though looking for some of those kind of primary dominant causes those kind of primary dominant causes those kind of primary dominant causes where so many of these things are like where so many of these things are like where so many of these things are like we see an exponential curve but it's not we see an exponential curve but it's not we see an exponential curve but it's not because like one thing is going because like one thing is going because like one thing is going exponential it's because we have exponential it's because we have exponential it's because we have hundreds of little sigmoid curves hundreds of little sigmoid curves hundreds of little sigmoid curves overlapped on top of each other and they overlapped on top of each other and they overlapped on top of each other and they just happen to keep adding up so that just happen to keep adding up so that just happen to keep adding up so that you've got something kind of going you've got something kind of going you've got something kind of going exponential at any given point but not exponential at any given point but not exponential at any given point but not no single one of them was the critical

no single one of them was the critical no single one of them was the critical thing there were you know dozens and thing there were you know dozens and thing there were you know dozens and dozens of things I mean seeing the dozens of things I mean seeing the dozens of things I mean seeing the transitions of stuff like as obviously transitions of stuff like as obviously transitions of stuff like as obviously Myspace giving way to other things but Myspace giving way to other things but Myspace giving way to other things but even like blogging giving way to uh to even like blogging giving way to uh to even like blogging giving way to uh to social media and getting resurrected in social media and getting resurrected in social media and getting resurrected in other guyses and things that happened other guyses and things that happened other guyses and things that happened there dancing baby GIF or whatever the there dancing baby GIF or whatever the there dancing baby GIF or whatever the all all your base not belong to us all all your base not belong to us all all your base not belong to us whatever those early memes that led to whatever those early memes that led to whatever those early memes that led to the modern memes and the humor on the the modern memes and the humor on the the modern memes and the humor on the different the different evolution of different the different evolution of different the different evolution of humor on the internet that I'm sure the humor on the internet that I'm sure the humor on the internet that I'm sure the historians will also write books about historians will also write books about historians will also write books about uh from the different website that uh from the different website that uh from the different website that support to create the infrastructure for support to create the infrastructure for support to create the infrastructure for that humor like Reddit and all that kind that humor like Reddit and all that kind that humor like Reddit and all that kind of stuff so people will go back and they of stuff so people will go back and they of stuff so people will go back and they will name firsts and critical moments will name firsts and critical moments will name firsts and critical moments but it's probably going to be a poor but it's probably going to be a poor but it's probably going to be a poor approximation of what actually happens approximation of what actually happens approximation of what actually happens and we've already seen like in the VR and we've already seen like in the VR and we've already seen like in the VR space where it didn't play out the way space where it didn't play out the way space where it didn't play out the way we thought it would in terms of what was we thought it would in terms of what was we thought it would in terms of what was going to be like when it the modern era going to be like when it the modern era going to be like when it the modern era of VR basically started with my E3 demo of VR basically started with my E3 demo of VR basically started with my E3 demo of Doom 3 on the rift prototype so we're of Doom 3 on the rift prototype so we're of Doom 3 on the rift prototype so we're like firstperson Shooters in VR match like firstperson Shooters in VR match like firstperson Shooters in VR match made in heaven right and that didn't made in heaven right and that didn't made in heaven right and that didn't work out that way at all they have you work out that way at all they have you work out that way at all they have you know they have the most Comfort problems know they have the most Comfort problems know they have the most Comfort problems with it and then the most popular with it and then the most popular with it and then the most popular virtual reality app is beat saer which virtual reality app is beat saer which virtual reality app is beat saer which nobody predicted back then what's that nobody predicted back then what's that nobody predicted back then what's that make you uh like from first principles make you uh like from first principles make you uh like from first principles if you were to like reverse engineer if you were to like reverse engineer if you were to like reverse engineer that why are these like silly fun games that why are these like silly fun games that why are these like silly fun games the most it actually makes very clear the most it actually makes very clear the most it actually makes very clear sense when you when you analyze it from

sense when you when you analyze it from sense when you when you analyze it from uh from hindsight and look at the uh from hindsight and look at the uh from hindsight and look at the engineering reasons where it's not just engineering reasons where it's not just engineering reasons where it's not just that it was a magical quirky idea it was that it was a magical quirky idea it was that it was a magical quirky idea it was something that played something that played something that played almost perfectly to what turned out to almost perfectly to what turned out to almost perfectly to what turned out to be the real strengths of VR where the be the real strengths of VR where the be the real strengths of VR where the one thing that I really underestimated one thing that I really underestimated one thing that I really underestimated importance in VR was the importance of importance in VR was the importance of importance in VR was the importance of the controllers you know I was still the controllers you know I was still the controllers you know I was still thinking we could do a lot more with uh thinking we could do a lot more with uh thinking we could do a lot more with uh with a Gamepad and just the amazingness with a Gamepad and just the amazingness with a Gamepad and just the amazingness of taking any existing game being able of taking any existing game being able of taking any existing game being able to move your head around and look around to move your head around and look around to move your head around and look around that that was you know that was really that that was you know that was really that that was you know that was really amazing but the controllers uh were amazing but the controllers uh were amazing but the controllers uh were super important but the problem is so super important but the problem is so super important but the problem is so many things that you do with the many things that you do with the many things that you do with the controllers just suck it feels like it controllers just suck it feels like it controllers just suck it feels like it breaks the illusion like trying to pick breaks the illusion like trying to pick breaks the illusion like trying to pick up glasses with the controllers where up glasses with the controllers where up glasses with the controllers where you're like oh use the grip button when you're like oh use the grip button when you're like oh use the grip button when you're kind of close and it'll snap into you're kind of close and it'll snap into you're kind of close and it'll snap into your hand all of those things are your hand all of those things are your hand all of those things are unnatural uh actions that you do them unnatural uh actions that you do them unnatural uh actions that you do them and it's still part of the VR experience and it's still part of the VR experience and it's still part of the VR experience but beats saber winds up I playing only but beats saber winds up I playing only but beats saber winds up I playing only to the strength it completely hides all to the strength it completely hides all to the strength it completely hides all the weaknesses of it because you are the weaknesses of it because you are the weaknesses of it because you are holding something in your hand you keep holding something in your hand you keep holding something in your hand you keep a solid grip on it the whole time it a solid grip on it the whole time it a solid grip on it the whole time it slices through things without ever slices through things without ever slices through things without ever bumping into things you never get into bumping into things you never get into bumping into things you never get into the point where you know I'm knocking on the point where you know I'm knocking on the point where you know I'm knocking on this table but in VR hand just goes this table but in VR hand just goes this table but in VR hand just goes right through it so you've got something right through it so you've got something right through it so you've got something that slices through so it's never your that slices through so it's never your that slices through so it's never your brain telling you oh I should have hit brain telling you oh I should have hit brain telling you oh I should have hit something you've got a lightsaber here something you've got a lightsaber here something you've got a lightsaber here it's just you expect it to slice through it's just you expect it to slice through it's just you expect it to slice through everything uh audio and music turned out everything uh audio and music turned out everything uh audio and music turned out to be a really powerful aspect of to be a really powerful aspect of to be a really powerful aspect of virtual reality where you're blocking virtual reality where you're blocking virtual reality where you're blocking the world off and constructing the world the world off and constructing the world the world off and constructing the world around you and I and being something

around you and I and being something around you and I and being something that can run efficiently on even this that can run efficiently on even this that can run efficiently on even this relatively low powerered hardware and relatively low powerered hardware and relatively low powerered hardware and can have a valuable Loop in a small can have a valuable Loop in a small can have a valuable Loop in a small amount of time where a lot of modern amount of time where a lot of modern amount of time where a lot of modern games you're supposed to sit down and games you're supposed to sit down and games you're supposed to sit down and play it for an hour just to get anywhere play it for an hour just to get anywhere play it for an hour just to get anywhere sometimes a new game takes an hour to sometimes a new game takes an hour to sometimes a new game takes an hour to get through the tutorial level and get through the tutorial level and get through the tutorial level and that's not good for VR for a couple that's not good for VR for a couple that's not good for VR for a couple reasons you do still have the Comfort reasons you do still have the Comfort reasons you do still have the Comfort issues if you're moving around at all issues if you're moving around at all issues if you're moving around at all but you've also got just you know but you've also got just you know but you've also got just you know discomfort from the headset battery discomfort from the headset battery discomfort from the headset battery lifespan on the mobile versions so lifespan on the mobile versions so lifespan on the mobile versions so having things that do break down into having things that do break down into having things that do break down into three and 4minute windows of play that three and 4minute windows of play that three and 4minute windows of play that turns out to be very valuable from a turns out to be very valuable from a turns out to be very valuable from a gameplay standpoint so it winds up being gameplay standpoint so it winds up being gameplay standpoint so it winds up being kind of a perfect storm of all of these kind of a perfect storm of all of these kind of a perfect storm of all of these things that are really good it doesn't things that are really good it doesn't things that are really good it doesn't have any of comfort problems you're not have any of comfort problems you're not have any of comfort problems you're not navigating around you're standing still navigating around you're standing still navigating around you're standing still all the stuff flies at you it has played all the stuff flies at you it has played all the stuff flies at you it has played audio strengths I it adds the the whole audio strengths I it adds the the whole audio strengths I it adds the the whole Fitness in VR nobody was thinking about Fitness in VR nobody was thinking about Fitness in VR nobody was thinking about that back in the at the beginning and it that back in the at the beginning and it that back in the at the beginning and it turns out that that is an excellent turns out that that is an excellent turns out that that is an excellent daily Fitness thing to be doing if you daily Fitness thing to be doing if you daily Fitness thing to be doing if you go play uh an hour of beat saver or go play uh an hour of beat saver or go play uh an hour of beat saver or Supernatural or something that is legit Supernatural or something that is legit Supernatural or something that is legit solid exercise uh and it's more fun than solid exercise uh and it's more fun than solid exercise uh and it's more fun than doing it just about any other way there doing it just about any other way there doing it just about any other way there so that's kind of the arcade stage of so that's kind of the arcade stage of so that's kind of the arcade stage of things if I were to say with my things if I were to say with my things if I were to say with my experience with VR the thing that I experience with VR the thing that I experience with VR the thing that I think is powerful is the maybe it's not think is powerful is the maybe it's not think is powerful is the maybe it's not here yet but the degree to which it is here yet but the degree to which it is here yet but the degree to which it is immersive in the way that Quake is immersive in the way that Quake is immersive in the way that Quake is immersive it takes you to another world

immersive it takes you to another world immersive it takes you to another world for me because I'm a fan of role playing for me because I'm a fan of role playing for me because I'm a fan of role playing games uh the Elder Scroll series games uh the Elder Scroll series games uh the Elder Scroll series uh like Skyrim or even Daggerfall it uh like Skyrim or even Daggerfall it uh like Skyrim or even Daggerfall it just takes you to another world and when just takes you to another world and when just takes you to another world and when you're not in that world you miss not you're not in that world you miss not you're not in that world you miss not being there and then you just you kind being there and then you just you kind being there and then you just you kind of want to stay there forever cuz life of want to stay there forever cuz life of want to stay there forever cuz life is is is shitty the whole point my V is that I shitty the whole point my V is that I shitty the whole point my V is that I there was a there was a time when I we there was a there was a time when I we there was a there was a time when I we were kind of asked to come up with like were kind of asked to come up with like were kind of asked to come up with like what's your view about VR and I am you what's your view about VR and I am you what's your view about VR and I am you know my pitch was that it should be know my pitch was that it should be know my pitch was that it should be better inside the headset than outside better inside the headset than outside better inside the headset than outside it's the world as you want it yeah and it's the world as you want it yeah and it's the world as you want it yeah and everybody thought that was dystopian and everybody thought that was dystopian and everybody thought that was dystopian and like that's like oh you're just going to like that's like oh you're just going to like that's like oh you're just going to forget about the world outside and I forget about the world outside and I forget about the world outside and I don't get that mindset where the idea don't get that mindset where the idea don't get that mindset where the idea that if you can make the world better that if you can make the world better that if you can make the world better inside the headset then outside you've inside the headset then outside you've inside the headset then outside you've just improved the person's life that's just improved the person's life that's just improved the person's life that's has a headset that can wear it and there has a headset that can wear it and there has a headset that can wear it and there are plenty of things that we just can't are plenty of things that we just can't are plenty of things that we just can't do for everyone in the real world do for everyone in the real world do for everyone in the real world everybody can't have Richard Branson's everybody can't have Richard Branson's everybody can't have Richard Branson's Private Island but everyone can have a Private Island but everyone can have a Private Island but everyone can have a private VR Island and it can have the private VR Island and it can have the private VR Island and it can have the things that they want on it and there's things that they want on it and there's things that they want on it and there's a lot of these kind of rivalrous goods a lot of these kind of rivalrous goods a lot of these kind of rivalrous goods in the real world that VR can just be in the real world that VR can just be in the real world that VR can just be better at we can do a lot of things like better at we can do a lot of things like better at we can do a lot of things like that that can be very very rich so yeah that that can be very very rich so yeah that that can be very very rich so yeah I want the I think it's going to be a I want the I think it's going to be a I want the I think it's going to be a positive thing this world where people positive thing this world where people positive thing this world where people want to go back into their headset where want to go back into their headset where want to go back into their headset where it can be better than somebody that's it can be better than somebody that's it can be better than somebody that's living in a tiny apartment can have a living in a tiny apartment can have a living in a tiny apartment can have a palacial estate in virtual reality they

palacial estate in virtual reality they palacial estate in virtual reality they can have all their friends from all over can have all their friends from all over can have all their friends from all over the world come over and visit them the world come over and visit them the world come over and visit them without every everybody getting on a without every everybody getting on a without every everybody getting on a plane and I and meeting in someplace and plane and I and meeting in someplace and plane and I and meeting in someplace and dealing with all the other logistics dealing with all the other logistics dealing with all the other logistics hassles there is real value in the you hassles there is real value in the you hassles there is real value in the you know the presence that you can get for know the presence that you can get for know the presence that you can get for remote meetings it's it's all the little remote meetings it's it's all the little remote meetings it's it's all the little things that we need to sort out but things that we need to sort out but things that we need to sort out but those are things that we have line of those are things that we have line of those are things that we have line of site on people you know that have been site on people you know that have been site on people you know that have been in like a good VR meeting using work in like a good VR meeting using work in like a good VR meeting using work rooms where you can say oh that was rooms where you can say oh that was rooms where you can say oh that was better than a zoom meeting but of course better than a zoom meeting but of course better than a zoom meeting but of course it's more of a hassle to get into it not it's more of a hassle to get into it not it's more of a hassle to get into it not everyone has a headset interoperability everyone has a headset interoperability everyone has a headset interoperability is worse you can't have you cap out at a is worse you can't have you cap out at a is worse you can't have you cap out at a certain number there's all these things certain number there's all these things certain number there's all these things that need to be fixed but that's one of that need to be fixed but that's one of that need to be fixed but that's one of those things you can look at and say we those things you can look at and say we those things you can look at and say we know there's value there we just need to know there's value there we just need to know there's value there we just need to really grind hard to file off all the really grind hard to file off all the really grind hard to file off all the rough edges and make that possible so rough edges and make that possible so rough edges and make that possible so you do think we have line of sight you do think we have line of sight you do think we have line of sight because there's a there's a reason like because there's a there's a reason like because there's a there's a reason like I I I do this podcast in person for I I I do this podcast in person for I I I do this podcast in person for example doing it remotely it it's not example doing it remotely it it's not example doing it remotely it it's not the same and if you somebody were to ask the same and if you somebody were to ask the same and if you somebody were to ask me why it's not the same I wouldn't be me why it's not the same I wouldn't be me why it's not the same I wouldn't be able to write down exactly why um but able to write down exactly why um but able to write down exactly why um but you're saying that it's possible you're saying that it's possible you're saying that it's possible whatever the magic is for inperson whatever the magic is for inperson whatever the magic is for inperson interaction that immersiveness of the interaction that immersiveness of the interaction that immersiveness of the experience we are almost there yes so experience we are almost there yes so experience we are almost there yes so the idea of like I'm doing a VR the idea of like I'm doing a VR the idea of like I'm doing a VR interview with someone I'm not saying interview with someone I'm not saying interview with someone I'm not saying it's here right now but you can see it's here right now but you can see it's here right now but you can see glimmers of what it should be and we

glimmers of what it should be and we glimmers of what it should be and we largely know what would need to be fixed largely know what would need to be fixed largely know what would need to be fixed and improved to like you say there's a and improved to like you say there's a and improved to like you say there's a difference between a remote interview difference between a remote interview difference between a remote interview doing a podcast over Zoom or something doing a podcast over Zoom or something doing a podcast over Zoom or something and face Toof face there's that sense of and face Toof face there's that sense of and face Toof face there's that sense of presence that immediacy the super low presence that immediacy the super low presence that immediacy the super low latency responsiveness being able to see latency responsiveness being able to see latency responsiveness being able to see all the subtle things there just all the subtle things there just all the subtle things there just occupying the same field of view and all occupying the same field of view and all occupying the same field of view and all of those are things that we absolutely of those are things that we absolutely of those are things that we absolutely can do in VR and that simple case of a can do in VR and that simple case of a can do in VR and that simple case of a small meeting with a couple people small meeting with a couple people small meeting with a couple people that's the much easier case than that's the much easier case than that's the much easier case than everybody thinks the Ready Player One everybody thinks the Ready Player One everybody thinks the Ready Player One Multiverse with a, people going across a Multiverse with a, people going across a Multiverse with a, people going across a you know a huge bridge to amazing places you know a huge bridge to amazing places you know a huge bridge to amazing places that's harder in a lot of other that's harder in a lot of other that's harder in a lot of other technical ways not to say we can't also technical ways not to say we can't also technical ways not to say we can't also do that but that's further away and has do that but that's further away and has do that but that's further away and has more challenges but this small thing more challenges but this small thing more challenges but this small thing about being able to have a meeting with about being able to have a meeting with about being able to have a meeting with one or a few people and have it feel one or a few people and have it feel one or a few people and have it feel real feel like you're there uh like you real feel like you're there uh like you real feel like you're there uh like you have the same interactions and talking have the same interactions and talking have the same interactions and talking with them you get subtle cues as we with them you get subtle cues as we with them you get subtle cues as we start getting eye and face tracking and start getting eye and face tracking and start getting eye and face tracking and some of the other things on high-end some of the other things on high-end some of the other things on high-end headsets a lot of that is going to come headsets a lot of that is going to come headsets a lot of that is going to come over over over and it doesn't have to be as good this and it doesn't have to be as good this and it doesn't have to be as good this is an important thing that people Miss is an important thing that people Miss is an important thing that people Miss where there was a lot of people that where there was a lot of people that where there was a lot of people that especially rich people that would look especially rich people that would look especially rich people that would look at VR and say it's like oh this just at VR and say it's like oh this just at VR and say it's like oh this just isn't that good and I'd say it's like isn't that good and I'd say it's like isn't that good and I'd say it's like well you've already been Courtside well you've already been Courtside well you've already been Courtside backstage and you know on Pit Row and backstage and you know on Pit Row and backstage and you know on Pit Row and you've done all of these experiences you've done all of these experiences you've done all of these experiences because you get to do them in real life because you get to do them in real life because you get to do them in real life but most people don't get to and even if but most people don't get to and even if but most people don't get to and even if the experience is only half as good if the experience is only half as good if the experience is only half as good if it's something that they never would

it's something that they never would it's something that they never would have gotten to do before it's still a have gotten to do before it's still a have gotten to do before it's still a very good thing and as we can just we very good thing and as we can just we very good thing and as we can just we can push that number up over time it has can push that number up over time it has can push that number up over time it has a minimum VI viable value level when it a minimum VI viable value level when it a minimum VI viable value level when it does something that is valuable enough does something that is valuable enough does something that is valuable enough to people as long as it's better inside to people as long as it's better inside to people as long as it's better inside the headset on any metric than it is the headset on any metric than it is the headset on any metric than it is outside and people choose to go there outside and people choose to go there outside and people choose to go there we're on the right path and we have a we're on the right path and we have a we're on the right path and we have a value gradient that I'm just always value gradient that I'm just always value gradient that I'm just always hammering on we can just follow this hammering on we can just follow this hammering on we can just follow this value gradient just keep making things value gradient just keep making things value gradient just keep making things better rather than going for that one better rather than going for that one better rather than going for that one close your eyes swing for the fences I close your eyes swing for the fences I close your eyes swing for the fences I am kind of Silver Bullet approach well I am kind of Silver Bullet approach well I am kind of Silver Bullet approach well I wonder if there's a value gradient for wonder if there's a value gradient for wonder if there's a value gradient for inperson meetings because if you get inperson meetings because if you get inperson meetings because if you get that right I mean that would change the that right I mean that would change the that right I mean that would change the world yeah that it doesn't need to I world yeah that it doesn't need to I world yeah that it doesn't need to I mean you don't need a r player one I but mean you don't need a r player one I but mean you don't need a r player one I but I wonder if there's that value gradient I wonder if there's that value gradient I wonder if there's that value gradient you can follow along because if there is you can follow along because if there is you can follow along because if there is and you follow it then uh there'll be a and you follow it then uh there'll be a and you follow it then uh there'll be a certain like facee shift a certain point certain like facee shift a certain point certain like facee shift a certain point where people will shift from um from where people will shift from um from where people will shift from um from Zoom to this uh I Zoom to this uh I Zoom to this uh I wonder what what are the bottlenecks is wonder what what are the bottlenecks is wonder what what are the bottlenecks is it software is it Hardware is it like is it software is it Hardware is it like is it software is it Hardware is it like is it is it all about latency so I have big it is it all about latency so I have big it is it all about latency so I have big arguments internally about strategic arguments internally about strategic arguments internally about strategic things like that where I like the next things like that where I like the next things like that where I like the next headset that's coming out that we've headset that's coming out that we've headset that's coming out that we've made various announcements about is made various announcements about is made various announcements about is going to be a higher end headset more going to be a higher end headset more going to be a higher end headset more expensive more features lots of people expensive more features lots of people expensive more features lots of people want to make those those tradeoffs I you

want to make those those tradeoffs I you want to make those those tradeoffs I you know we'll see what the market has to know we'll see what the market has to know we'll see what the market has to say about the the exact trade-offs we've say about the the exact trade-offs we've say about the the exact trade-offs we've made here but if you want to replace made here but if you want to replace made here but if you want to replace Zoom you need to have something that Zoom you need to have something that Zoom you need to have something that everybody has um and so you like cheaper everybody has um and so you like cheaper everybody has um and so you like cheaper I like cheaper because also lighter and I like cheaper because also lighter and I like cheaper because also lighter and cheaper wind up being uh a virtuous cheaper wind up being uh a virtuous cheaper wind up being uh a virtuous cycle there where expensive and more cycle there where expensive and more cycle there where expensive and more features tends to also lead towards features tends to also lead towards features tends to also lead towards heavier and it just kind of goes it's heavier and it just kind of goes it's heavier and it just kind of goes it's like let's add more features the like let's add more features the like let's add more features the features are not uh you know they have features are not uh you know they have features are not uh you know they have physical presence and weight and draw physical presence and weight and draw physical presence and weight and draw from batteries and all of those things from batteries and all of those things from batteries and all of those things so I've always favored a lower-end uh so I've always favored a lower-end uh so I've always favored a lower-end uh cheaper faster approach that's why I was cheaper faster approach that's why I was cheaper faster approach that's why I was always behind the the mobile side of VR always behind the the mobile side of VR always behind the the mobile side of VR rather than the higher-end PC headsets rather than the higher-end PC headsets rather than the higher-end PC headsets and I think that's you know that's and I think that's you know that's and I think that's you know that's proven out well but there's I you always proven out well but there's I you always proven out well but there's I you always ideally we have a whole range of things ideally we have a whole range of things ideally we have a whole range of things but if you've only got one or two things but if you've only got one or two things but if you've only got one or two things it's important that those two things it's important that those two things it's important that those two things cover the uh you know the scope that you cover the uh you know the scope that you cover the uh you know the scope that you think is most important when we're in a think is most important when we're in a think is most important when we're in a world when it's like cell phones and world when it's like cell phones and world when it's like cell phones and there's 50 of them on the market there's 50 of them on the market there's 50 of them on the market covering every conceivable e logical covering every conceivable e logical covering every conceivable e logical niche you want that's going to be great niche you want that's going to be great niche you want that's going to be great but we're not going to be there for a but we're not going to be there for a but we're not going to be there for a while where are the bottlenecks is it while where are the bottlenecks is it while where are the bottlenecks is it the hardware or the software yeah so the hardware or the software yeah so the hardware or the software yeah so right now uh you can play you can get uh right now uh you can play you can get uh right now uh you can play you can get uh work rooms on Quest and you can set up work rooms on Quest and you can set up work rooms on Quest and you can set up these things and it's a pretty good these things and it's a pretty good these things and it's a pretty good experience it's surprisingly good I experience it's surprisingly good I experience it's surprisingly good I haven't tried it is it it's surprisingly haven't tried it is it it's surprisingly haven't tried it is it it's surprisingly good you know the voice latency is good you know the voice latency is good you know the voice latency is better on that than uh a lot better than better on that than uh a lot better than better on that than uh a lot better than a zoom meeting so you've got a more a a zoom meeting so you've got a more a a zoom meeting so you've got a more a better sense of immediacy there the better sense of immediacy there the better sense of immediacy there the Expressions that you get from the the

Expressions that you get from the the Expressions that you get from the the current Hardware with just kind of your current Hardware with just kind of your current Hardware with just kind of your controllers and your head is pretty controllers and your head is pretty controllers and your head is pretty realistic feeling and you got a pretty realistic feeling and you got a pretty realistic feeling and you got a pretty good sense of being there with someone good sense of being there with someone good sense of being there with someone with are these like uh avatars of people with are these like uh avatars of people with are these like uh avatars of people like do do do you get to see their body like do do do you get to see their body like do do do you get to see their body up and they're sitting around a table up and they're sitting around a table up and they're sitting around a table yeah and it feel it feels better than yeah and it feel it feels better than yeah and it feel it feels better than Zoom feel better than you yeah better Zoom feel better than you yeah better Zoom feel better than you yeah better than you'd expect for that it is than you'd expect for that it is than you'd expect for that it is definitely yeah I'd say it's it's quite definitely yeah I'd say it's it's quite definitely yeah I'd say it's it's quite a bit better than Zoom when everything's a bit better than Zoom when everything's a bit better than Zoom when everything's working right but there's still all the working right but there's still all the working right but there's still all the rough edges of the reason Zoom became so rough edges of the reason Zoom became so rough edges of the reason Zoom became so successful is because they just nailed successful is because they just nailed successful is because they just nailed the usability of everything it's high the usability of everything it's high the usability of everything it's high quality with a absolutely First Rate quality with a absolutely First Rate quality with a absolutely First Rate experience and we are not there yet with experience and we are not there yet with experience and we are not there yet with any of the VR stuff I'm trying to to any of the VR stuff I'm trying to to any of the VR stuff I'm trying to to push hard to get I I keep talking about push hard to get I I keep talking about push hard to get I I keep talking about it's like it needs to just be one click it's like it needs to just be one click it's like it needs to just be one click to make everything happen and we're to make everything happen and we're to make everything happen and we're getting there in our our home getting there in our our home getting there in our our home environment not the whole work rooms environment not the whole work rooms environment not the whole work rooms application but the main home where you application but the main home where you application but the main home where you can now kind of go over and click an can now kind of go over and click an can now kind of go over and click an invite and it still winds up taking five invite and it still winds up taking five invite and it still winds up taking five times longer than it should times longer than it should times longer than it should but we're getting close to that where but we're getting close to that where but we're getting close to that where you click there they click on their you click there they click on their you click there they click on their button and then they're sitting there in button and then they're sitting there in button and then they're sitting there in this good presence with you but this good presence with you but this good presence with you but latencies need to get a lot better user latencies need to get a lot better user latencies need to get a lot better user interface needs to get a lot better um interface needs to get a lot better um interface needs to get a lot better um ubiquity of the headsets needs to get ubiquity of the headsets needs to get ubiquity of the headsets needs to get better we need to have 100 million of better we need to have 100 million of better we need to have 100 million of them out there just so that everybody them out there just so that everybody them out there just so that everybody knows somebody that uses this all the knows somebody that uses this all the knows somebody that uses this all the time well I think it's a virtu cycle time well I think it's a virtu cycle time well I think it's a virtu cycle because I do because I do because I do think the think the think the interface is the thing that makes a interface is the thing that makes a interface is the thing that makes a break

break break this kind of Revolution it's so this kind of Revolution it's so this kind of Revolution it's so interesting how like uh you said one interesting how like uh you said one interesting how like uh you said one click but it's also like how you achieve click but it's also like how you achieve click but it's also like how you achieve that one click I don't know what is that one click I don't know what is that one click I don't know what is um C can I ask a dark question maybe um C can I ask a dark question maybe um C can I ask a dark question maybe let's keep it outside of meta but this let's keep it outside of meta but this let's keep it outside of meta but this is about meta but also Google and big is about meta but also Google and big is about meta but also Google and big company are they able to do this kind of company are they able to do this kind of company are they able to do this kind of thing it seems like let me put on my thing it seems like let me put on my thing it seems like let me put on my cranky old man hat is they seem to not cranky old man hat is they seem to not cranky old man hat is they seem to not do a good job do a good job do a good job of creating these userfriendly of creating these userfriendly of creating these userfriendly interfaces as they get bigger and bigger interfaces as they get bigger and bigger interfaces as they get bigger and bigger as a company like Google has created as a company like Google has created as a company like Google has created some of the greatest interfaces ever uh some of the greatest interfaces ever uh some of the greatest interfaces ever uh early on and it's I mean creating Gmail early on and it's I mean creating Gmail early on and it's I mean creating Gmail um just so many um just so many um just so many brilliant interfaces and she seems to be brilliant interfaces and she seems to be brilliant interfaces and she seems to be getting crappier and crappier at that getting crappier and crappier at that getting crappier and crappier at that same with meta same with uh uh Microsoft same with meta same with uh uh Microsoft same with meta same with uh uh Microsoft it's just it seems to get worse and it's just it seems to get worse and it's just it seems to get worse and worse at that as the I don't know what worse at that as the I don't know what worse at that as the I don't know what is it because youve become more is it because youve become more is it because youve become more conservative careful risk averse is that conservative careful risk averse is that conservative careful risk averse is that why can you speak that it's been really why can you speak that it's been really why can you speak that it's been really eye openening to me working inside a eye openening to me working inside a eye openening to me working inside a tech Titan where I you know I I had my tech Titan where I you know I I had my tech Titan where I you know I I had my small companies and then we were small companies and then we were small companies and then we were acquired by a you know a midsize game acquired by a you know a midsize game acquired by a you know a midsize game publisher and then uh Oculus getting publisher and then uh Oculus getting publisher and then uh Oculus getting acquired by meta and meta has grown by a acquired by meta and meta has grown by a acquired by meta and meta has grown by a factor of many just in the the eight factor of many just in the the eight factor of many just in the the eight years since the years since the years since the acquisition so I did not have experience acquisition so I did not have experience acquisition so I did not have experience with this and it's it was interesting

with this and it's it was interesting with this and it's it was interesting because I remember like previously my because I remember like previously my because I remember like previously my Benchmark for uh kind of use of Benchmark for uh kind of use of Benchmark for uh kind of use of resources was some of the government resources was some of the government resources was some of the government programs I interacted with on the programs I interacted with on the programs I interacted with on the Aerospace side and I remember thinking Aerospace side and I remember thinking Aerospace side and I remember thinking there was okay there's an Air Force there was okay there's an Air Force there was okay there's an Air Force program and they spent $50 million and program and they spent $50 million and program and they spent $50 million and they didn't they didn't launch anything they didn't they didn't launch anything they didn't they didn't launch anything they didn't even build anything it was they didn't even build anything it was they didn't even build anything it was just kind of like they I you know they just kind of like they I you know they just kind of like they I you know they made a bunch of papers and had some made a bunch of papers and had some made a bunch of papers and had some parts in uh in a warehouse and nothing parts in uh in a warehouse and nothing parts in uh in a warehouse and nothing came of it it's like $50 came of it it's like $50 came of it it's like $50 million um and I have I've had to million um and I have I've had to million um and I have I've had to radically recalibrate my sense of like radically recalibrate my sense of like radically recalibrate my sense of like how much money can be spent with how much money can be spent with how much money can be spent with I resources where yeah on the ver the I resources where yeah on the ver the I resources where yeah on the ver the plus side VR has turned out we've built plus side VR has turned out we've built plus side VR has turned out we've built pretty much exactly what you know we pretty much exactly what you know we pretty much exactly what you know we just passed the 10e mark then from my I just passed the 10e mark then from my I just passed the 10e mark then from my I like my first demo of the rift and if I like my first demo of the rift and if I like my first demo of the rift and if I could have said what I wanted to have it could have said what I wanted to have it could have said what I wanted to have it would have been a standalone Inside Out would have been a standalone Inside Out would have been a standalone Inside Out tracked 4K resolution headset that I tracked 4K resolution headset that I tracked 4K resolution headset that I that could still plug into a PC for that could still plug into a PC for that could still plug into a PC for highend rendering and that's exactly highend rendering and that's exactly highend rendering and that's exactly what we've got on Quest 2 right now what we've got on Quest 2 right now what we've got on Quest 2 right now first of all let's pause on that with me first of all let's pause on that with me first of all let's pause on that with me being cranky and everything it's what being cranky and everything it's what being cranky and everything it's what meta achieved uh with oculus and so on meta achieved uh with oculus and so on meta achieved uh with oculus and so on is incredible I mean this is this what is incredible I mean this is this what is incredible I mean this is this what when I thought about the future of VR when I thought about the future of VR when I thought about the future of VR this what I imagined in terms of this what I imagined in terms of this what I imagined in terms of Hardware I would say and maybe in terms Hardware I would say and maybe in terms Hardware I would say and maybe in terms of the experience as well but it's still of the experience as well but it's still of the experience as well but it's still not there somehow on the one hand we did not there somehow on the one hand we did not there somehow on the one hand we did kind of achieve it and win and we've got kind of achieve it and win and we've got kind of achieve it and win and we've got we we've sold you know we're a success we we've sold you know we're a success we we've sold you know we're a success right now but the amount of resources

right now but the amount of resources right now but the amount of resources that have gone into it it winds up that have gone into it it winds up that have gone into it it winds up getting cluttered up in accounting where getting cluttered up in accounting where getting cluttered up in accounting where last Mark did announce that they spent last Mark did announce that they spent last Mark did announce that they spent 10 billion dollar a year like on reality 10 billion dollar a year like on reality 10 billion dollar a year like on reality Labs now reality Labs covers a lot it Labs now reality Labs covers a lot it Labs now reality Labs covers a lot it was VR was not the large part of it it was VR was not the large part of it it was VR was not the large part of it it also had portal and Spark and the big AR also had portal and Spark and the big AR also had portal and Spark and the big AR research efforts and it's been expanding research efforts and it's been expanding research efforts and it's been expanding out to include Ai and other things there out to include Ai and other things there out to include Ai and other things there where uh there's a lot going on there where uh there's a lot going on there where uh there's a lot going on there but 10 billion dollar was just a number but 10 billion dollar was just a number but 10 billion dollar was just a number that I had trouble processing it's just that I had trouble processing it's just that I had trouble processing it's just I feel sick to my stomach thinking about I feel sick to my stomach thinking about I feel sick to my stomach thinking about that much money being spent but that's that much money being spent but that's that much money being spent but that's how they they demonstrate commitment to how they they demonstrate commitment to how they they demonstrate commitment to this where it's not I'm more so than this where it's not I'm more so than this where it's not I'm more so than like yeah Google goes and cancels all of like yeah Google goes and cancels all of like yeah Google goes and cancels all of these projects uh different things uh these projects uh different things uh these projects uh different things uh like that while meta is really sticking like that while meta is really sticking like that while meta is really sticking with the funding of VR and AR is still with the funding of VR and AR is still with the funding of VR and AR is still further out with it so there's something further out with it so there's something further out with it so there's something to be said for that I it's not just to be said for that I it's not just to be said for that I it's not just going to vanish The Works going in I going to vanish The Works going in I going to vanish The Works going in I just wish it could be all those just wish it could be all those just wish it could be all those resources could be applied more resources could be applied more resources could be applied more effectively because I see all these effectively because I see all these effectively because I see all these cases I point out these examples of how cases I point out these examples of how cases I point out these examples of how a third party that we're kind of a third party that we're kind of a third party that we're kind of competing with in various ways there's a competing with in various ways there's a competing with in various ways there's a number of these examples and they do number of these examples and they do number of these examples and they do work with a tenth of the people that we work with a tenth of the people that we work with a tenth of the people that we do internally uh and a lot of it comes do internally uh and a lot of it comes do internally uh and a lot of it comes from yes there's the small company can from yes there's the small company can from yes there's the small company can just go do it while in a big company you just go do it while in a big company you just go do it while in a big company you do have to worry about I you know is do have to worry about I you know is do have to worry about I you know is there some SDK internally that you there some SDK internally that you there some SDK internally that you should be using because another team's should be using because another team's should be using because another team's making it you have to have your cross making it you have to have your cross making it you have to have your cross functional uh group meetups for

functional uh group meetups for functional uh group meetups for different things you do have more different things you do have more different things you do have more concerns about you know about privacy or concerns about you know about privacy or concerns about you know about privacy or diversity and equity and um safety of diversity and equity and um safety of diversity and equity and um safety of different things parental issues and different things parental issues and different things parental issues and things that a small startup company can things that a small startup company can things that a small startup company can just kind of you know Cowboy off and do just kind of you know Cowboy off and do just kind of you know Cowboy off and do something interesting and there's a lot something interesting and there's a lot something interesting and there's a lot more that is a problem that you have to more that is a problem that you have to more that is a problem that you have to pay attention to in the big companies pay attention to in the big companies pay attention to in the big companies but I'm not willing to believe that we but I'm not willing to believe that we but I'm not willing to believe that we are within even a a factor of two or are within even a a factor of two or are within even a a factor of two or four of what the efficiency could be you four of what the efficiency could be you four of what the efficiency could be you know I I am constantly kind of crying know I I am constantly kind of crying know I I am constantly kind of crying out for it's like we can do better than out for it's like we can do better than out for it's like we can do better than this yeah and you wonder what the this yeah and you wonder what the this yeah and you wonder what the mechanisms to unlock that efficiency are mechanisms to unlock that efficiency are mechanisms to unlock that efficiency are you know I I don't there is some sense you know I I don't there is some sense you know I I don't there is some sense in a large in a large in a large company that like an individual engineer company that like an individual engineer company that like an individual engineer might not believe that they can change might not believe that they can change might not believe that they can change the world maybe you you delegate a the world maybe you you delegate a the world maybe you you delegate a little bit of the responsibility to be little bit of the responsibility to be little bit of the responsibility to be the one who changes the world in a big the one who changes the world in a big the one who changes the world in a big company I think but the reality is like company I think but the reality is like company I think but the reality is like the world will get changed by a single the world will get changed by a single the world will get changed by a single engineer anyway so if whether inside engineer anyway so if whether inside engineer anyway so if whether inside Google or inside a startup it doesn't Google or inside a startup it doesn't Google or inside a startup it doesn't matter it's just that Google and meta matter it's just that Google and meta matter it's just that Google and meta needs to help those Engineers believe needs to help those Engineers believe needs to help those Engineers believe they're the ones that are going to they're the ones that are going to they're the ones that are going to decrease that latency is it'll take one decrease that latency is it'll take one decrease that latency is it'll take one John carac like the 20-year-old karmac John carac like the 20-year-old karmac John carac like the 20-year-old karmac that's inside meta right now to change that's inside meta right now to change that's inside meta right now to change everything and I try to point that out everything and I try to point that out everything and I try to point that out and push people it's like try to go and push people it's like try to go and push people it's like try to go ahead and when you see some because ahead and when you see some because ahead and when you see some because there is you get The Silo mentality there is you get The Silo mentality there is you get The Silo mentality where you're like okay I know where you're like okay I know where you're like okay I know something's not right over there but something's not right over there but something's not right over there but that's I'm staying in my Lane here I and

that's I'm staying in my Lane here I and that's I'm staying in my Lane here I and there's there's a couple people that I there's there's a couple people that I there's there's a couple people that I can you know I can think about that are can you know I can think about that are can you know I can think about that are willing to just like hop all over the willing to just like hop all over the willing to just like hop all over the place and man I treasure them the people place and man I treasure them the people place and man I treasure them the people that are just willing to they're that are just willing to they're that are just willing to they're Fearless you know they will go over and Fearless you know they will go over and Fearless you know they will go over and they will go rebuild the kernel and they will go rebuild the kernel and they will go rebuild the kernel and change this distribution and go in and change this distribution and go in and change this distribution and go in and hack the firmware over here to to get hack the firmware over here to to get hack the firmware over here to to get something done right and that is something done right and that is something done right and that is relatively rare you know there's relatively rare you know there's relatively rare you know there's thousands of developers and you've got a thousands of developers and you've got a thousands of developers and you've got a small handful that are willing to small handful that are willing to small handful that are willing to operate at that level and you know and operate at that level and you know and operate at that level and you know and it's potentially risky for them the the it's potentially risky for them the the it's potentially risky for them the the politics are you know are real in a lot politics are you know are real in a lot politics are you know are real in a lot of that and I'm in the you know very of that and I'm in the you know very of that and I'm in the you know very much the privileged position of I am you much the privileged position of I am you much the privileged position of I am you know I'm more or less Untouchable there know I'm more or less Untouchable there know I'm more or less Untouchable there where I've been dinged like twice for where I've been dinged like twice for where I've been dinged like twice for it's like you said something insensitive it's like you said something insensitive it's like you said something insensitive in that post and uh and you should in that post and uh and you should in that post and uh and you should probably not say that um but for the probably not say that um but for the probably not say that um but for the most part yes I you know I get away with most part yes I you know I get away with most part yes I you know I get away with I every week I'm posting something you I every week I'm posting something you I every week I'm posting something you know pretty loud in opinionated in you know pretty loud in opinionated in you know pretty loud in opinionated in you know internally and I think that's know internally and I think that's know internally and I think that's useful for the company but um yeah it's useful for the company but um yeah it's useful for the company but um yeah it's not it's rare to have a position like not it's rare to have a position like not it's rare to have a position like that and I can't necessarily offer that and I can't necessarily offer that and I can't necessarily offer advice for how someone can do that I advice for how someone can do that I advice for how someone can do that I well you could offer advice to a company well you could offer advice to a company well you could offer advice to a company in general to give a little bit of in general to give a little bit of in general to give a little bit of freedom for the young wild like the freedom for the young wild like the freedom for the young wild like the wildest ideas come from The Young wildest ideas come from The Young wildest ideas come from The Young Minds uh and so you need to give the Minds uh and so you need to give the Minds uh and so you need to give the young minds freedom to to think big and young minds freedom to to think big and young minds freedom to to think big and Wild and and crazy and for that they Wild and and crazy and for that they Wild and and crazy and for that they have to be opinionated they have to be have to be opinionated they have to be have to be opinionated they have to be um they have to think crazy ideas and um they have to think crazy ideas and um they have to think crazy ideas and thoughts and pursue them with a full

thoughts and pursue them with a full thoughts and pursue them with a full passion without being slowed down by passion without being slowed down by passion without being slowed down by bureaucracy or managers and all that bureaucracy or managers and all that bureaucracy or managers and all that kind of stuff um obviously startups kind of stuff um obviously startups kind of stuff um obviously startups really Empower that but big companies really Empower that but big companies really Empower that but big companies could too and that's that's a design could too and that's that's a design could too and that's that's a design challenge for company for big companies challenge for company for big companies challenge for company for big companies to see how can you enable that how can to see how can you enable that how can to see how can you enable that how can you the big company there are so many you the big company there are so many you the big company there are so many resources there and they do you know resources there and they do you know resources there and they do you know amazing things do get accomplished but amazing things do get accomplished but amazing things do get accomplished but there's so much more that could come out there's so much more that could come out there's so much more that could come out of that and you know I'm hope I'm always of that and you know I'm hope I'm always of that and you know I'm hope I'm always hopeful I'm an optimist in almost hopeful I'm an optimist in almost hopeful I'm an optimist in almost everything you know I think things can everything you know I think things can everything you know I think things can get better I think that they can improve get better I think that they can improve get better I think that they can improve things that you go through a path and things that you go through a path and things that you go through a path and you're learning uh kind of what does and you're learning uh kind of what does and you're learning uh kind of what does and doesn't work and I'm not I'm not ready doesn't work and I'm not I'm not ready doesn't work and I'm not I'm not ready to be fatalistic about the kind of the to be fatalistic about the kind of the to be fatalistic about the kind of the outcome of any of that uh me neither I outcome of any of that uh me neither I outcome of any of that uh me neither I know too many good people inside of know too many good people inside of know too many good people inside of those large companies that are those large companies that are those large companies that are incredible you have a friendship with incredible you have a friendship with incredible you have a friendship with Elon Musk Elon Musk Elon Musk uh often when I talk to him he'll bring uh often when I talk to him he'll bring uh often when I talk to him he'll bring up how incredible of an engineer and up how incredible of an engineer and up how incredible of an engineer and just a big pink thinker you are just a big pink thinker you are just a big pink thinker you are his uh huge amount of respect uh for you his uh huge amount of respect uh for you his uh huge amount of respect uh for you I just I've never been a fly in the wall I just I've never been a fly in the wall I just I've never been a fly in the wall between a discussion between the two of between a discussion between the two of between a discussion between the two of you I just wonder is there something you you I just wonder is there something you you I just wonder is there something you guys de debate argue about discuss is guys de debate argue about discuss is guys de debate argue about discuss is there some interesting problems that the there some interesting problems that the there some interesting problems that the two of you think about you come from two of you think about you come from two of you think about you come from different worlds maybe there's some different worlds maybe there's some different worlds maybe there's some intersection in the in Aerospace maybe intersection in the in Aerospace maybe intersection in the in Aerospace maybe there's some there's some there's some intersection in your new efforts in intersection in your new efforts in intersection in your new efforts in artificial intelligence in terms of artificial intelligence in terms of artificial intelligence in terms of thinking is there something interesting thinking is there something interesting thinking is there something interesting you could say about sort of the debates

you could say about sort of the debates you could say about sort of the debates the two of you have so I think in some the two of you have so I think in some the two of you have so I think in some ways we do have a kind of similar ways we do have a kind of similar ways we do have a kind of similar background where we're almost exactly background where we're almost exactly background where we're almost exactly the same age and we had kind of similar the same age and we had kind of similar the same age and we had kind of similar programming backgrounds on the personal programming backgrounds on the personal programming backgrounds on the personal computers and you know even some of the computers and you know even some of the computers and you know even some of the the books that we would read and things the books that we would read and things the books that we would read and things that would kind of turn us into the that would kind of turn us into the that would kind of turn us into the people that we are today and people that we are today and people that we are today and I think there is a degree of sensibility I think there is a degree of sensibility I think there is a degree of sensibility similarities where you know we kind of similarities where you know we kind of similarities where you know we kind of cult on the same things and cult on the same things and cult on the same things and kind of see the same uh opportunities in kind of see the same uh opportunities in kind of see the same uh opportunities in different technology and there's that different technology and there's that different technology and there's that sense of you know I always talk about sense of you know I always talk about sense of you know I always talk about the speed of light solutions for things the speed of light solutions for things the speed of light solutions for things and he's thinking about kind of minimum and he's thinking about kind of minimum and he's thinking about kind of minimum manufacturing and engineering and manufacturing and engineering and manufacturing and engineering and operational standpoints for things and operational standpoints for things and operational standpoints for things and so I mean I first met Elon right at the so I mean I first met Elon right at the so I mean I first met Elon right at the start of the Aerospace era where I start of the Aerospace era where I start of the Aerospace era where I wasn't familiar with uh you know I was wasn't familiar with uh you know I was wasn't familiar with uh you know I was still in my Game Dev bubble I really still in my Game Dev bubble I really still in my Game Dev bubble I really wasn't familiar with all the startups wasn't familiar with all the startups wasn't familiar with all the startups that were going and being successful and that were going and being successful and that were going and being successful and what went on with PayPal and all of his what went on with PayPal and all of his what went on with PayPal and all of his different companies but you know I met different companies but you know I met different companies but you know I met him as I was starting to do armadillo him as I was starting to do armadillo him as I was starting to do armadillo Aerospace and you know he came down with Aerospace and you know he came down with Aerospace and you know he came down with kind of his right-hand propulsion guy kind of his right-hand propulsion guy kind of his right-hand propulsion guy and we we talked about Rockets you know and we we talked about Rockets you know and we we talked about Rockets you know what can we what can we do with this and what can we what can we do with this and what can we what can we do with this and it was kind of specific things about it was kind of specific things about it was kind of specific things about like how are how are our flight like how are how are our flight like how are how are our flight computers set up what are different computers set up what are different computers set up what are different propellent options I am you know what propellent options I am you know what propellent options I am you know what can happen with different uh different can happen with different uh different can happen with different uh different ways of putting things together and then ways of putting things together and then ways of putting things together and then in some ways he was certainly the in some ways he was certainly the in some ways he was certainly the biggest player in the sort of alt space biggest player in the sort of alt space biggest player in the sort of alt space community that was going on in the early

community that was going on in the early community that was going on in the early 2000s he was the most well-funded 2000s he was the most well-funded 2000s he was the most well-funded although you know his funding in the although you know his funding in the although you know his funding in the larger scheme of things compared to a uh larger scheme of things compared to a uh larger scheme of things compared to a uh like a NASA or something like that was like a NASA or something like that was like a NASA or something like that was really tiny uh it was a lot more than I really tiny uh it was a lot more than I really tiny uh it was a lot more than I had at the time I but it was interesting had at the time I but it was interesting had at the time I but it was interesting I had a point years later when I real I had a point years later when I real I had a point years later when I real realized okay my like my financial realized okay my like my financial realized okay my like my financial resources at this point are basically resources at this point are basically resources at this point are basically what elon's was when he went all in on what elon's was when he went all in on what elon's was when he went all in on SpaceX and Tesla and SpaceX and Tesla and SpaceX and Tesla and there's I I think in many corners he there's I I think in many corners he there's I I think in many corners he does not get uh the respect that he does not get uh the respect that he does not get uh the respect that he should about being a wealthy person that should about being a wealthy person that should about being a wealthy person that could just retire and he went Allin could just retire and he went Allin could just retire and he went Allin where he was really going to I you know where he was really going to I you know where he was really going to I you know he could have gone bust and there's he could have gone bust and there's he could have gone bust and there's plenty of people you look at the you plenty of people you look at the you plenty of people you look at the you know the sad uh athletes or or know the sad uh athletes or or know the sad uh athletes or or entertainers that had all the money in entertainers that had all the money in entertainers that had all the money in the world and blew it he could have been the world and blew it he could have been the world and blew it he could have been the the business case example of that the the business case example of that the the business case example of that but um you know the the things that he but um you know the the things that he but um you know the the things that he was doing space exploration was doing space exploration was doing space exploration electrification of electrification of electrification of Transportation um Solar City type things Transportation um Solar City type things Transportation um Solar City type things these are Big World level things and I these are Big World level things and I these are Big World level things and I have a great deal of admiration that he have a great deal of admiration that he have a great deal of admiration that he was willing to throw himself so was willing to throw himself so was willing to throw himself so completely into that because you in completely into that because you in completely into that because you in contrast with myself I was doing contrast with myself I was doing contrast with myself I was doing armadillo Aerospace with this tightly armadillo Aerospace with this tightly armadillo Aerospace with this tightly bounded uh it was John's crazy money uh bounded uh it was John's crazy money uh bounded uh it was John's crazy money uh at the time that had a finite limit on at the time that had a finite limit on at the time that had a finite limit on it it was never going to impact me or my it it was never going to impact me or my it it was never going to impact me or my family uh if it completely failed and I family uh if it completely failed and I family uh if it completely failed and I was still hedging my bets working at ID

was still hedging my bets working at ID was still hedging my bets working at ID software at the time when he had been software at the time when he had been software at the time when he had been you know really Allin there and uh I you know really Allin there and uh I you know really Allin there and uh I have a huge amount of respect for that have a huge amount of respect for that have a huge amount of respect for that and people do not the other thing I get and people do not the other thing I get and people do not the other thing I get irritated with is people that say it's irritated with is people that say it's irritated with is people that say it's like oh elon's just just a business guy like oh elon's just just a business guy like oh elon's just just a business guy you know he just got like he was gifted you know he just got like he was gifted you know he just got like he was gifted the money and he's just kind of uh the money and he's just kind of uh the money and he's just kind of uh investing in all of this when uh he was investing in all of this when uh he was investing in all of this when uh he was really deeply involved in a lot of the really deeply involved in a lot of the really deeply involved in a lot of the decisions you know not all of them were decisions you know not all of them were decisions you know not all of them were perfect but I you know he cared very perfect but I you know he cared very perfect but I you know he cared very much about engine material selection much about engine material selection much about engine material selection propellant selection and I you know for propellant selection and I you know for propellant selection and I you know for years he'd be kind of telling me it's years he'd be kind of telling me it's years he'd be kind of telling me it's like get off that hydrogen peroxide like get off that hydrogen peroxide like get off that hydrogen peroxide stuff it's like you know liquid oxygen stuff it's like you know liquid oxygen stuff it's like you know liquid oxygen is the you know is the only proper is the you know is the only proper is the you know is the only proper oxidizer for this and I you know and oxidizer for this and I you know and oxidizer for this and I you know and like the times that I've gone through like the times that I've gone through like the times that I've gone through the factories with him we're we're the factories with him we're we're the factories with him we're we're talking very detailed things about like talking very detailed things about like talking very detailed things about like how this weld is made you know how this how this weld is made you know how this how this weld is made you know how this subassembly goes together I you know subassembly goes together I you know subassembly goes together I you know what are like startup shutdown behaviors what are like startup shutdown behaviors what are like startup shutdown behaviors of the different things so he is you of the different things so he is you of the different things so he is you know really in there at a very detailed know really in there at a very detailed know really in there at a very detailed level and I think that he is the the level and I think that he is the the level and I think that he is the the best modern example now of someone that best modern example now of someone that best modern example now of someone that tries to that can effectively tries to that can effectively tries to that can effectively micromanage some decisions on things on micromanage some decisions on things on micromanage some decisions on things on both Tesla you know and SpaceX to some both Tesla you know and SpaceX to some both Tesla you know and SpaceX to some degree agree where he cares enough about degree agree where he cares enough about degree agree where he cares enough about it I worry a lot that he stretched too it I worry a lot that he stretched too it I worry a lot that he stretched too thin that you get boring company and thin that you get boring company and thin that you get boring company and neuralink and Twitter and all the other neuralink and Twitter and all the other neuralink and Twitter and all the other possible things there where I know I've possible things there where I know I've possible things there where I know I've got I I've got limits on how much I can got I I've got limits on how much I can got I I've got limits on how much I can pay attention to uh that I have to kind

pay attention to uh that I have to kind pay attention to uh that I have to kind of box off different amounts of time and of box off different amounts of time and of box off different amounts of time and I look back at like at my Aerospace side I look back at like at my Aerospace side I look back at like at my Aerospace side of things it's like I did not go all in of things it's like I did not go all in of things it's like I did not go all in on that I did not commit myself at a on that I did not commit myself at a on that I did not commit myself at a level that it would have taken to be level that it would have taken to be level that it would have taken to be successful there and I successful there and I successful there and I yeah and it's kind of a weird thing just yeah and it's kind of a weird thing just yeah and it's kind of a weird thing just like having a a discussion with he's the like having a a discussion with he's the like having a a discussion with he's the richest man in the world right now but richest man in the world right now but richest man in the world right now but he I you know he operates on you know on he I you know he operates on you know on he I you know he operates on you know on a level that is still uh very much in my a level that is still uh very much in my a level that is still uh very much in my wheelhouse on a technical side of things wheelhouse on a technical side of things wheelhouse on a technical side of things so that doing that systems level type of so that doing that systems level type of so that doing that systems level type of thinking where you can go to the the thinking where you can go to the the thinking where you can go to the the lowle details and go up high to the big lowle details and go up high to the big lowle details and go up high to the big picture uh do you think uh in the picture uh do you think uh in the picture uh do you think uh in the Aerospace arena in the next 5 10 years Aerospace arena in the next 5 10 years Aerospace arena in the next 5 10 years do you think we're going to put a human do you think we're going to put a human do you think we're going to put a human on Mars like what do you think is the on Mars like what do you think is the on Mars like what do you think is the interesting uh no I do in fact I I made interesting uh no I do in fact I I made interesting uh no I do in fact I I made a bet with someone with a group of a bet with someone with a group of a bet with someone with a group of people kind of this about whether boots people kind of this about whether boots people kind of this about whether boots on Mars by on Mars by on Mars by 2030 and this was kind of a fun you know 2030 and this was kind of a fun you know 2030 and this was kind of a fun you know fun story because I was at an Intel fun story because I was at an Intel fun story because I was at an Intel sponsored event and we had a bunch of sponsored event and we had a bunch of sponsored event and we had a bunch of just world-class brilliant people and we just world-class brilliant people and we just world-class brilliant people and we were talking about Computing stuff but were talking about Computing stuff but were talking about Computing stuff but the after dinner conversation was like the after dinner conversation was like the after dinner conversation was like what are some other things how they what are some other things how they what are some other things how they going to go in the future and one of the going to go in the future and one of the going to go in the future and one of the on tossed up on the Whiteboard was like on tossed up on the Whiteboard was like on tossed up on the Whiteboard was like boots on Mars by boots on Mars by boots on Mars by 2030 and most of the people in the room 2030 and most of the people in the room 2030 and most of the people in the room thought yes you know they thought that thought yes you know they thought that thought yes you know they thought that like SpaceX is kicking ass we've got all like SpaceX is kicking ass we've got all like SpaceX is kicking ass we've got all this possible stuff I seems likely that this possible stuff I seems likely that this possible stuff I seems likely that it's going to go that way and I said no it's going to go that way and I said no it's going to go that way and I said no I think less than 50% chance that it's

I think less than 50% chance that it's I think less than 50% chance that it's going to make it there and people you going to make it there and people you going to make it there and people you know were kind of like oh you know why know were kind of like oh you know why know were kind of like oh you know why the pessimism or whatever and of course the pessimism or whatever and of course the pessimism or whatever and of course I'm an optimist at almost everything but I'm an optimist at almost everything but I'm an optimist at almost everything but for me to be the the one kind of outlier for me to be the the one kind of outlier for me to be the the one kind of outlier saying no I don't think so um then I saying no I don't think so um then I saying no I don't think so um then I started saying some of the things I said started saying some of the things I said started saying some of the things I said well let's be concrete about it let's uh well let's be concrete about it let's uh well let's be concrete about it let's uh bet $110,000 that it's not going to bet $110,000 that it's not going to bet $110,000 that it's not going to happen and this was this was really a happen and this was this was really a happen and this was this was really a startling thing to see that I again room startling thing to see that I again room startling thing to see that I again room full of brilliant people but as soon as full of brilliant people but as soon as full of brilliant people but as soon as like money came on the line and they like money came on the line and they like money came on the line and they were like do I want to put $10,000 and I were like do I want to put $10,000 and I were like do I want to put $10,000 and I was not the richest person in the room was not the richest person in the room was not the richest person in the room uh there were people much better off uh there were people much better off uh there were people much better off than than I was there was a spectrum but than than I was there was a spectrum but than than I was there was a spectrum but um you know as soon as they started um you know as soon as they started um you know as soon as they started think it's like oh I could lose money by think it's like oh I could lose money by think it's like oh I could lose money by by keeping uh keeping my position right by keeping uh keeping my position right by keeping uh keeping my position right now and all these Engineers they engage now and all these Engineers they engage now and all these Engineers they engage their brain they started thinking it's their brain they started thinking it's their brain they started thinking it's like okay launch Windows uh launch like okay launch Windows uh launch like okay launch Windows uh launch delays like how many times would it take delays like how many times would it take delays like how many times would it take to get this right what historical to get this right what historical to get this right what historical preceden do we have and I and then it preceden do we have and I and then it preceden do we have and I and then it mostly came down to it's like well what mostly came down to it's like well what mostly came down to it's like well what about in transit by 2030 and then I you about in transit by 2030 and then I you about in transit by 2030 and then I you know what about I you know different know what about I you know different know what about I you know different things or would you hand would you go things or would you hand would you go things or would you hand would you go for 2032 but uh one of the the people for 2032 but uh one of the the people for 2032 but uh one of the the people did go ahead and was optimistic enough did go ahead and was optimistic enough did go ahead and was optimistic enough to make a bet with me so I I have a to make a bet with me so I I have a to make a bet with me so I I have a $110,000 bet that my 2030 I think it's $110,000 bet that my 2030 I think it's $110,000 bet that my 2030 I think it's going to happen shortly thereafter I going to happen shortly thereafter I going to happen shortly thereafter I think there will probably be think there will probably be think there will probably be infrastructure on Mars by 2030 but I infrastructure on Mars by 2030 but I infrastructure on Mars by 2030 but I don't think that we'll have uh humans on don't think that we'll have uh humans on don't think that we'll have uh humans on Mars on 23rd I think it's possible but I Mars on 23rd I think it's possible but I Mars on 23rd I think it's possible but I think it's less than a 50% chance so I

think it's less than a 50% chance so I think it's less than a 50% chance so I felt safe making that bet well I think felt safe making that bet well I think felt safe making that bet well I think you had an interesting point uh correct you had an interesting point uh correct you had an interesting point uh correct me if I'm wrong that's a dark one that's me if I'm wrong that's a dark one that's me if I'm wrong that's a dark one that's um um um that should perhaps help people that should perhaps help people that should perhaps help people appreciate Elon Musk which appreciate Elon Musk which appreciate Elon Musk which is in this particular effort Elon is a is in this particular effort Elon is a is in this particular effort Elon is a critical is critical to the success critical is critical to the success critical is critical to the success SpaceX seems to be uh critical to the 20 SpaceX seems to be uh critical to the 20 SpaceX seems to be uh critical to the 20 you you you know uh humans on Mars by 2030 or know uh humans on Mars by 2030 or know uh humans on Mars by 2030 or thereabouts so if something happens to thereabouts so if something happens to thereabouts so if something happens to Elon um then all of this collapses and Elon um then all of this collapses and Elon um then all of this collapses and this is in contrast to the the other this is in contrast to the the other this is in contrast to the the other $10,000 bet I made kind of recently and $10,000 bet I made kind of recently and $10,000 bet I made kind of recently and that was self-driving cars at like a that was self-driving cars at like a that was self-driving cars at like a level five running around uh cities and level five running around uh cities and level five running around uh cities and people have kind of nitpicked that that people have kind of nitpicked that that people have kind of nitpicked that that we probably don't mean exactly level we probably don't mean exactly level we probably don't mean exactly level five but the guy I'm having the bet with five but the guy I'm having the bet with five but the guy I'm having the bet with I is we're GNA be we know what we mean I is we're GNA be we know what we mean I is we're GNA be we know what we mean about this Jeff fatwood yeah coding about this Jeff fatwood yeah coding about this Jeff fatwood yeah coding horror and stack overlow and all but I horror and stack overlow and all but I horror and stack overlow and all but I yeah I mean it's just he doesn't think yeah I mean it's just he doesn't think yeah I mean it's just he doesn't think that people are going to be riding that people are going to be riding that people are going to be riding around in Robo taxis in 2030 uh in May around in Robo taxis in 2030 uh in May around in Robo taxis in 2030 uh in May major cities just like like you take an major cities just like like you take an major cities just like like you take an Uber now and I think it will you think Uber now and I think it will you think Uber now and I think it will you think it will and I think and the difference it will and I think and the difference it will and I think and the difference is everybody looks at this it's like oh is everybody looks at this it's like oh is everybody looks at this it's like oh but Tesla has been wrong for year but Tesla has been wrong for year but Tesla has been wrong for year they've been promising it for years and they've been promising it for years and they've been promising it for years and it's not here yet and the reason this is it's not here yet and the reason this is it's not here yet and the reason this is different than the bet with Mars is Mars different than the bet with Mars is Mars different than the bet with Mars is Mars really is more than is comfortable a bet really is more than is comfortable a bet really is more than is comfortable a bet on Elon Musk I am you know that is you

on Elon Musk I am you know that is you on Elon Musk I am you know that is you know that is his thing and he is really know that is his thing and he is really know that is his thing and he is really going to move Heaven and Earth to try to going to move Heaven and Earth to try to going to move Heaven and Earth to try to to make that happen and perhaps not even to make that happen and perhaps not even to make that happen and perhaps not even SpaceX perhaps just Elon mon yeah SpaceX perhaps just Elon mon yeah SpaceX perhaps just Elon mon yeah because if if Elon went away and SpaceX because if if Elon went away and SpaceX because if if Elon went away and SpaceX went public and got a border of went public and got a border of went public and got a border of directors I there are more profitable directors I there are more profitable directors I there are more profitable things they could be doing than focusing things they could be doing than focusing things they could be doing than focusing on human presence on Mars so this really on human presence on Mars so this really on human presence on Mars so this really is a sort of personal thing there and in is a sort of personal thing there and in is a sort of personal thing there and in contrast with that self-driving cars contrast with that self-driving cars contrast with that self-driving cars have a dozen credible companies working have a dozen credible companies working have a dozen credible companies working really hard and while yes it's going really hard and while yes it's going really hard and while yes it's going slower than most people thought it would slower than most people thought it would slower than most people thought it would betting against that is a bet against betting against that is a bet against betting against that is a bet against almost the entire world in terms of all almost the entire world in terms of all almost the entire world in terms of all of these companies that have all of of these companies that have all of of these companies that have all of these incentives it's not just you know these incentives it's not just you know these incentives it's not just you know one guy's passion project I and I do one guy's passion project I and I do one guy's passion project I and I do think that it is solvable I although think that it is solvable I although think that it is solvable I although there's I recognize it's not 100% chance there's I recognize it's not 100% chance there's I recognize it's not 100% chance because it's possible the long tale of because it's possible the long tale of because it's possible the long tale of self-driving problems winds up being an self-driving problems winds up being an self-driving problems winds up being an AGI complete problem uh I think there's AGI complete problem uh I think there's AGI complete problem uh I think there's plenty of value to mine out of it with plenty of value to mine out of it with plenty of value to mine out of it with narrow Ai and I think that it's you know narrow Ai and I think that it's you know narrow Ai and I think that it's you know it's going to happen probably more so it's going to happen probably more so it's going to happen probably more so than people expect but it's that whole than people expect but it's that whole than people expect but it's that whole sigmoid curve where you over you know sigmoid curve where you over you know sigmoid curve where you over you know you overestimate the near-term progress you overestimate the near-term progress you overestimate the near-term progress and you underestimate the long-term and you underestimate the long-term and you underestimate the long-term progress and I think self-driving is progress and I think self-driving is progress and I think self-driving is going to be like that and I think 2030 going to be like that and I think 2030 going to be like that and I think 2030 is still a pretty good bet yeah is still a pretty good bet yeah is still a pretty good bet yeah unfortunately um self-driving is a unfortunately um self-driving is a unfortunately um self-driving is a problem that uh is safety critical

problem that uh is safety critical problem that uh is safety critical meaning that if if you don't do it well meaning that if if you don't do it well meaning that if if you don't do it well people get hurt but the other side of people get hurt but the other side of people get hurt but the other side of that is people are terrible drivers so that is people are terrible drivers so that is people are terrible drivers so it is not going to be that's probably it is not going to be that's probably it is not going to be that's probably going to be the argument that gets it going to be the argument that gets it going to be the argument that gets it through is like we can save 10,000 lives through is like we can save 10,000 lives through is like we can save 10,000 lives a Year by taking imperfect self-driving a Year by taking imperfect self-driving a Year by taking imperfect self-driving cars and letting them take over a lot of cars and letting them take over a lot of cars and letting them take over a lot of driving responsibilities it's like was driving responsibilities it's like was driving responsibilities it's like was it 30,000 people a year die in auto it 30,000 people a year die in auto it 30,000 people a year die in auto accidents right now in America and a lot accidents right now in America and a lot accidents right now in America and a lot of those are preventable and the problem of those are preventable and the problem of those are preventable and the problem is you'll have people that every time a is you'll have people that every time a is you'll have people that every time a Tesla crashes into something you've got Tesla crashes into something you've got Tesla crashes into something you've got a bunch of people that literally have a bunch of people that literally have a bunch of people that literally have vested interest short Tesla to come out vested interest short Tesla to come out vested interest short Tesla to come out and make it the worst thing in the world and make it the worst thing in the world and make it the worst thing in the world and people will be fighting against that and people will be fighting against that and people will be fighting against that but Optimist in me again I think that we but Optimist in me again I think that we but Optimist in me again I think that we will have systems that are statistically will have systems that are statistically will have systems that are statistically safer than human drivers and we will be safer than human drivers and we will be safer than human drivers and we will be saving thousands and thousands of lives saving thousands and thousands of lives saving thousands and thousands of lives every year when we can hand over more of every year when we can hand over more of every year when we can hand over more of those responsibilities to it I do still those responsibilities to it I do still those responsibilities to it I do still think as a person who studied this think as a person who studied this think as a person who studied this problem very deeply from a human side as problem very deeply from a human side as problem very deeply from a human side as well it's still an open problem how well it's still an open problem how well it's still an open problem how good/bad good/bad good/bad humans are driving it's a kind of funny humans are driving it's a kind of funny humans are driving it's a kind of funny thing we say about each other oh humans thing we say about each other oh humans thing we say about each other oh humans suck at driving um everybody except you suck at driving um everybody except you suck at driving um everybody except you of course like we think we're good at of course like we think we're good at of course like we think we're good at driving but I after really studying it I driving but I after really studying it I driving but I after really studying it I I I think you start to notice you know I I think you start to notice you know I I think you start to notice you know CU I've watched uh hundreds of hours of CU I've watched uh hundreds of hours of CU I've watched uh hundreds of hours of humans driving with the projects of this humans driving with the projects of this humans driving with the projects of this kind of thing you've noticed that even

kind of thing you've noticed that even kind of thing you've noticed that even with the distraction even with with the distraction even with with the distraction even with everything else humans are able ble to everything else humans are able ble to everything else humans are able ble to to do some incredible things with the to do some incredible things with the to do some incredible things with the the with the attention even when you're the with the attention even when you're the with the attention even when you're just looking at the smartphone just to just looking at the smartphone just to just looking at the smartphone just to get cues from the environment to make get cues from the environment to make get cues from the environment to make last second decisions to use instinctual last second decisions to use instinctual last second decisions to use instinctual type of decisions that actually save type of decisions that actually save type of decisions that actually save your ass time and time and time again your ass time and time and time again your ass time and time and time again and are able to do that with so much and are able to do that with so much and are able to do that with so much uncertainty around you and such tricky uncertainty around you and such tricky uncertainty around you and such tricky Dynamic environments I don't know I Dynamic environments I don't know I Dynamic environments I don't know I don't I don't know exact L um how hard don't I don't know exact L um how hard don't I don't know exact L um how hard is it to beat that kind of skill of is it to beat that kind of skill of is it to beat that kind of skill of Common Sense reasoning so this is one of Common Sense reasoning so this is one of Common Sense reasoning so this is one of those interesting things that there have those interesting things that there have those interesting things that there have been a lot of studies about how experts been a lot of studies about how experts been a lot of studies about how experts in their field usually underestimate the in their field usually underestimate the in their field usually underestimate the progress that's going to happen because progress that's going to happen because progress that's going to happen because an expert thinks about all the problems an expert thinks about all the problems an expert thinks about all the problems they deal with and they're like damn I'm they deal with and they're like damn I'm they deal with and they're like damn I'm going to have a hard time solving all of going to have a hard time solving all of going to have a hard time solving all of this and they filter out the fact that this and they filter out the fact that this and they filter out the fact that they are one expert in a field of they are one expert in a field of they are one expert in a field of thousands and you know you think about thousands and you know you think about thousands and you know you think about yeah I can't do all of that and you yeah I can't do all of that and you yeah I can't do all of that and you sometimes forget about the scope of the sometimes forget about the scope of the sometimes forget about the scope of the the ecosystem that you're embedded in the ecosystem that you're embedded in the ecosystem that you're embedded in and if you think back eight years very and if you think back eight years very and if you think back eight years very specifically the state of AI and machine specifically the state of AI and machine specifically the state of AI and machine learning where was that we we had just learning where was that we we had just learning where was that we we had just gotten res Nets probably at that point gotten res Nets probably at that point gotten res Nets probably at that point and you look at all the amazing magical and you look at all the amazing magical and you look at all the amazing magical things that have happened in eight years things that have happened in eight years things that have happened in eight years and they do kind of seem to be happening and they do kind of seem to be happening and they do kind of seem to be happening a little faster in recent Years also and a little faster in recent Years also and a little faster in recent Years also and you project that eight more years into you project that eight more years into you project that eight more years into the future where again I think there's a the future where again I think there's a the future where again I think there's a 50% chance we're going to have Signs of

50% chance we're going to have Signs of 50% chance we're going to have Signs of Life of AGI you know which we can put Life of AGI you know which we can put Life of AGI you know which we can put through driver's ed if we need to to through driver's ed if we need to to through driver's ed if we need to to actually build self-driving cars and I actually build self-driving cars and I actually build self-driving cars and I think that the narrow systems are going think that the narrow systems are going think that the narrow systems are going to to have real value demonstrated well to to have real value demonstrated well to to have real value demonstrated well before then so Signs of Life in AGI before then so Signs of Life in AGI before then so Signs of Life in AGI you've uh mentioned you've uh mentioned you've uh mentioned that okay first of all you're one of the that okay first of all you're one of the that okay first of all you're one of the most brilliant people on this Earth You most brilliant people on this Earth You most brilliant people on this Earth You could be solving uh a number of could be solving uh a number of could be solving uh a number of different problems as you've mentioned different problems as you've mentioned different problems as you've mentioned your mind was attracted to nuclear your mind was attracted to nuclear your mind was attracted to nuclear energy obviously virtual reality with energy obviously virtual reality with energy obviously virtual reality with the metaverse is something you could the metaverse is something you could the metaverse is something you could have a tremendous impact on so I do want have a tremendous impact on so I do want have a tremendous impact on so I do want to say a quick thing about nuclear to say a quick thing about nuclear to say a quick thing about nuclear energy where I you know this is energy where I you know this is energy where I you know this is something that I re this so precisely something that I re this so precisely something that I re this so precisely feels like Aerospace before SpaceX where feels like Aerospace before SpaceX where feels like Aerospace before SpaceX where from everything that I know about all of from everything that I know about all of from everything that I know about all of these I the physics of this stuff hasn't these I the physics of this stuff hasn't these I the physics of this stuff hasn't changed and the reasons why things are changed and the reasons why things are changed and the reasons why things are expensive now are not expensive now are not expensive now are not fundamental I somebody should be going fundamental I somebody should be going fundamental I somebody should be going into a really hard Elon musk's style at into a really hard Elon musk's style at into a really hard Elon musk's style at uh Vision economical Vision not Fusion uh Vision economical Vision not Fusion uh Vision economical Vision not Fusion where the fusion is the kind of the the where the fusion is the kind of the the where the fusion is the kind of the the darling of people that want to go and do darling of people that want to go and do darling of people that want to go and do nuclear because it doesn't have the nuclear because it doesn't have the nuclear because it doesn't have the taint that fion has in a lot of people's taint that fion has in a lot of people's taint that fion has in a lot of people's minds but it's an almost absurdly minds but it's an almost absurdly minds but it's an almost absurdly complex thing where nuclear fusion is complex thing where nuclear fusion is complex thing where nuclear fusion is you look at the the tokumx or any of the you look at the the tokumx or any of the you look at the the tokumx or any of the things that people are building and it's things that people are building and it's things that people are building and it's doing all of this infrastructure just at doing all of this infrastructure just at doing all of this infrastructure just at the end of the day to make something hot

the end of the day to make something hot the end of the day to make something hot to that you can then turn into energy to that you can then turn into energy to that you can then turn into energy through a conventional power plant and through a conventional power plant and through a conventional power plant and all of that work which we think we've all of that work which we think we've all of that work which we think we've got line of sight on but even if it got line of sight on but even if it got line of sight on but even if it comes out then you have to do all of comes out then you have to do all of comes out then you have to do all of that immensely complex expensive stuff that immensely complex expensive stuff that immensely complex expensive stuff just to make something hot where nuclear just to make something hot where nuclear just to make something hot where nuclear fision is basically you put these two fision is basically you put these two fision is basically you put these two rocks together and they get hot all by rocks together and they get hot all by rocks together and they get hot all by themselves that is just that much themselves that is just that much themselves that is just that much simpler it's just orders of magnitude simpler it's just orders of magnitude simpler it's just orders of magnitude simpler and the actual rocks the refined simpler and the actual rocks the refined simpler and the actual rocks the refined uranium is not very expensive it's a uranium is not very expensive it's a uranium is not very expensive it's a couple percent of the the cost of couple percent of the the cost of couple percent of the the cost of electricity that's why I made that point electricity that's why I made that point electricity that's why I made that point where you could have something which was where you could have something which was where you could have something which was five times less efficient than current five times less efficient than current five times less efficient than current systems and if the rest of the plant was systems and if the rest of the plant was systems and if the rest of the plant was a whole bunch cheaper you could still be a whole bunch cheaper you could still be a whole bunch cheaper you could still be super super valuable so how much of the super super valuable so how much of the super super valuable so how much of the pie do you pie do you pie do you think uh could be solved by nuclear think uh could be solved by nuclear think uh could be solved by nuclear energy by fishing so how how much could energy by fishing so how how much could energy by fishing so how how much could it become the primary source of energy it become the primary source of energy it become the primary source of energy on Earth it could be most of it like the on Earth it could be most of it like the on Earth it could be most of it like the reserves of uranium as it stands now reserves of uranium as it stands now reserves of uranium as it stands now could not power the whole Earth but I could not power the whole Earth but I could not power the whole Earth but I you know you get into breeder reactors you know you get into breeder reactors you know you get into breeder reactors and thorium and things like that that and thorium and things like that that and thorium and things like that that you do for conventional fion uh there is you do for conventional fion uh there is you do for conventional fion uh there is enough for for everything now I mean enough for for everything now I mean enough for for everything now I mean solar photovoltaic has been amazing you solar photovoltaic has been amazing you solar photovoltaic has been amazing you know it's I I one of my current projects know it's I I one of my current projects know it's I I one of my current projects is working on an off- grid system and is working on an off- grid system and is working on an off- grid system and it's been fun just kind of again putting it's been fun just kind of again putting it's been fun just kind of again putting my hands on all the stripping the wires my hands on all the stripping the wires my hands on all the stripping the wires and wiring things together and doing all and wiring things together and doing all and wiring things together and doing all of that and just having followed that a of that and just having followed that a of that and just having followed that a little bit from the outside over the little bit from the outside over the little bit from the outside over the last couple decades there's been last couple decades there's been last couple decades there's been semiconductor like magical progress uh

semiconductor like magical progress uh semiconductor like magical progress uh in what's going on there so I'm all for in what's going on there so I'm all for in what's going on there so I'm all for all of that but it doesn't solve all of that but it doesn't solve all of that but it doesn't solve everything and nuclear really still does everything and nuclear really still does everything and nuclear really still does seem like the smart money bet for what seem like the smart money bet for what seem like the smart money bet for what you should be getting for baseband on a you should be getting for baseband on a you should be getting for baseband on a lot of things and solar may be cheaper lot of things and solar may be cheaper lot of things and solar may be cheaper for uh you know peing over air for uh you know peing over air for uh you know peing over air conditioning loads during the the summer conditioning loads during the the summer conditioning loads during the the summer and things that you can push around in and things that you can push around in and things that you can push around in different ways but it's one of those different ways but it's one of those different ways but it's one of those things that's it's just strange how things that's it's just strange how things that's it's just strange how we've had the technology sitting there we've had the technology sitting there we've had the technology sitting there but these non-technical reasons on the but these non-technical reasons on the but these non-technical reasons on the social Optics of it has been this major social Optics of it has been this major social Optics of it has been this major forcing function for something that you forcing function for something that you forcing function for something that you know really should be at the the know really should be at the the know really should be at the the Cornerstone of all of the world's Cornerstone of all of the world's Cornerstone of all of the world's concerns with energy it's interesting concerns with energy it's interesting concerns with energy it's interesting how the non-technical factors have how the non-technical factors have how the non-technical factors have really dominated something that is so really dominated something that is so really dominated something that is so fundamental to kind of the existence of fundamental to kind of the existence of fundamental to kind of the existence of the human race as we know it today and the human race as we know it today and the human race as we know it today and much of the Troubles of the world much of the Troubles of the world much of the Troubles of the world including Wars in different parts of the including Wars in different parts of the including Wars in different parts of the world like Ukraine is energy based and world like Ukraine is energy based and world like Ukraine is energy based and uh yeah it's just sitting right there to uh yeah it's just sitting right there to uh yeah it's just sitting right there to be be be solved that said uh I mean to me solved that said uh I mean to me solved that said uh I mean to me personally I think it's clear that if personally I think it's clear that if personally I think it's clear that if AGI were to be achieved that would AGI were to be achieved that would AGI were to be achieved that would change the course of human history so change the course of human history so change the course of human history so AGI wise I was you know I was making AGI wise I was you know I was making AGI wise I was you know I was making this decision about what do I want to this decision about what do I want to this decision about what do I want to focus on after VR and I'm still working focus on after VR and I'm still working focus on after VR and I'm still working on VR regularly I spend a day a week I on VR regularly I spend a day a week I on VR regularly I spend a day a week I kind of Consulting with meta and I you kind of Consulting with meta and I you kind of Consulting with meta and I you know BOS Styles me the Consulting CTO know BOS Styles me the Consulting CTO know BOS Styles me the Consulting CTO it's kind of like the Sherlock Homes

it's kind of like the Sherlock Homes it's kind of like the Sherlock Homes that comes in and consults on some of that comes in and consults on some of that comes in and consults on some of the specific tough issues and I'm still the specific tough issues and I'm still the specific tough issues and I'm still pretty passionate about all of that uh pretty passionate about all of that uh pretty passionate about all of that uh but I have been figuring out how to but I have been figuring out how to but I have been figuring out how to compartmentalize and uh force that into compartmentalize and uh force that into compartmentalize and uh force that into a smaller box to work on some other a smaller box to work on some other a smaller box to work on some other things and I did come down to this things and I did come down to this things and I did come down to this decision between working on uh decision between working on uh decision between working on uh economical nuclear fion or artificial economical nuclear fion or artificial economical nuclear fion or artificial general intelligence and uh the vision general intelligence and uh the vision general intelligence and uh the vision side of things I've I've got a bunch of side of things I've I've got a bunch of side of things I've I've got a bunch of interesting things going that way but it interesting things going that way but it interesting things going that way but it would take that would be a fairly big would take that would be a fairly big would take that would be a fairly big project thing to do I I don't think it project thing to do I I don't think it project thing to do I I don't think it needs to be as big as people expect I do needs to be as big as people expect I do needs to be as big as people expect I do think something original SpaceX sized I think something original SpaceX sized I think something original SpaceX sized I you build it power your building off of you build it power your building off of you build it power your building off of it and then the government I think will it and then the government I think will it and then the government I think will come around to what you need to is come around to what you need to is come around to what you need to is everybody loves an existence proof I everybody loves an existence proof I everybody loves an existence proof I think it's possible somebody should be think it's possible somebody should be think it's possible somebody should be doing this but it's going to involve doing this but it's going to involve doing this but it's going to involve some politics it's going to involve some politics it's going to involve some politics it's going to involve decent sized teams and a bunch of this decent sized teams and a bunch of this decent sized teams and a bunch of this cross functional stuff that I don't love cross functional stuff that I don't love cross functional stuff that I don't love while the artificial general while the artificial general while the artificial general intelligence side of things um it seems intelligence side of things um it seems intelligence side of things um it seems to me like this is the highest leverage to me like this is the highest leverage to me like this is the highest leverage moment for potentially a single moment for potentially a single moment for potentially a single individual potentially in the history of individual potentially in the history of individual potentially in the history of the world where the things that we know the world where the things that we know the world where the things that we know about the brain about what we can do about the brain about what we can do about the brain about what we can do with artificial intelligence uh nobody with artificial intelligence uh nobody with artificial intelligence uh nobody can say absolutely on any of these can say absolutely on any of these can say absolutely on any of these things but I am not a Madman for saying things but I am not a Madman for saying things but I am not a Madman for saying that it is likely that the code for that it is likely that the code for that it is likely that the code for artificial general intelligence artificial general intelligence artificial general intelligence is going to be tens of thousands of

is going to be tens of thousands of is going to be tens of thousands of lines of code not millions of lines of lines of code not millions of lines of lines of code not millions of lines of code this is code that conceivably one code this is code that conceivably one code this is code that conceivably one individual could write unlike writing a individual could write unlike writing a individual could write unlike writing a new web browser or operating system and new web browser or operating system and new web browser or operating system and based on the progress that AI has based on the progress that AI has based on the progress that AI has machine learning has made in the recent machine learning has made in the recent machine learning has made in the recent decade it's likely that the important decade it's likely that the important decade it's likely that the important things that we don't know are relatively things that we don't know are relatively things that we don't know are relatively simple there's probably a handful of simple there's probably a handful of simple there's probably a handful of things and my bet is that I think things and my bet is that I think things and my bet is that I think there's there's there's less than six key insights that need to less than six key insights that need to less than six key insights that need to be made each one of them can probably be be made each one of them can probably be be made each one of them can probably be written on the back of an envelope we written on the back of an envelope we written on the back of an envelope we don't know what they are but when don't know what they are but when don't know what they are but when they're put together in concert with they're put together in concert with they're put together in concert with gpus at scale and the data that we all gpus at scale and the data that we all gpus at scale and the data that we all have access to that we can make have access to that we can make have access to that we can make something that behaves like a human something that behaves like a human something that behaves like a human being or like a living creature and that being or like a living creature and that being or like a living creature and that can then be educated in whatever ways can then be educated in whatever ways can then be educated in whatever ways that we need to get to the point where that we need to get to the point where that we need to get to the point where we can have universal remote workers we can have universal remote workers we can have universal remote workers where anything that somebody does where anything that somebody does where anything that somebody does mediated by a computer and doesn't mediated by a computer and doesn't mediated by a computer and doesn't require physical interaction um that an require physical interaction um that an require physical interaction um that an AGI will be able to do we can already AGI will be able to do we can already AGI will be able to do we can already simulate the you know the equivalent of simulate the you know the equivalent of simulate the you know the equivalent of the zoom uh the zoom meetings with the zoom uh the zoom meetings with the zoom uh the zoom meetings with avatars and uh synthetic deep fakes and avatars and uh synthetic deep fakes and avatars and uh synthetic deep fakes and whatnot we can definitely do that uh we whatnot we can definitely do that uh we whatnot we can definitely do that uh we have superhuman capabilities on any have superhuman capabilities on any have superhuman capabilities on any narrow thing that we can uh that we can narrow thing that we can uh that we can narrow thing that we can uh that we can formalize and make a loss function for formalize and make a loss function for formalize and make a loss function for but there's things we don't know how to but there's things we don't know how to but there's things we don't know how to do now but I don't think they are do now but I don't think they are do now but I don't think they are unapproachable hard now that incredibly unapproachable hard now that incredibly unapproachable hard now that incredibly hubristic to say that it's like but I

hubristic to say that it's like but I hubristic to say that it's like but I think that what I said a couple years think that what I said a couple years think that what I said a couple years ago is a 50% chance that somewhere there ago is a 50% chance that somewhere there ago is a 50% chance that somewhere there will be Signs of Life of AGI in 2030 and will be Signs of Life of AGI in 2030 and will be Signs of Life of AGI in 2030 and I've probably increased that slightly I I've probably increased that slightly I I've probably increased that slightly I may be at 55 60% now because I do think may be at 55 60% now because I do think may be at 55 60% now because I do think there's a little sense of acceleration there's a little sense of acceleration there's a little sense of acceleration there so I wonder what the and by the there so I wonder what the and by the there so I wonder what the and by the way you also written that I I I bet with way you also written that I I I bet with way you also written that I I I bet with hindsight we will find that clear hindsight we will find that clear hindsight we will find that clear antecedants of all the critical antecedants of all the critical antecedants of all the critical remaining steps remaining steps remaining steps for AGI are already buried somewhere in for AGI are already buried somewhere in for AGI are already buried somewhere in the vast literature of today so the the vast literature of today so the the vast literature of today so the ideas are already there I think that's ideas are already there I think that's ideas are already there I think that's likely the case one of the things that likely the case one of the things that likely the case one of the things that appeals to so many people including me appeals to so many people including me appeals to so many people including me about the promise of AGI is we know that about the promise of AGI is we know that about the promise of AGI is we know that we're only drinking from a straw from we're only drinking from a straw from we're only drinking from a straw from the the fire hose of all the information the the fire hose of all the information the the fire hose of all the information out there I mean you look at just in a a out there I mean you look at just in a a out there I mean you look at just in a a very narrowly bounded field like machine very narrowly bounded field like machine very narrowly bounded field like machine learning like you can't read all the learning like you can't read all the learning like you can't read all the papers that that come out all the time papers that that come out all the time papers that that come out all the time you can't go back and read all the you can't go back and read all the you can't go back and read all the clever things that people did in the 90s clever things that people did in the 90s clever things that people did in the 90s or earlier that people have forgotten or earlier that people have forgotten or earlier that people have forgotten about because they didn't pan out at the about because they didn't pan out at the about because they didn't pan out at the time when they were trying to do them time when they were trying to do them time when they were trying to do them with 12 neurons um so that this idea with 12 neurons um so that this idea with 12 neurons um so that this idea that yeah I think there are gems buried that yeah I think there are gems buried that yeah I think there are gems buried in some of the older literature that was in some of the older literature that was in some of the older literature that was not the path taken by everything and you not the path taken by everything and you not the path taken by everything and you can see a kind of herd mentality on the can see a kind of herd mentality on the can see a kind of herd mentality on the things that happen right now it's almost things that happen right now it's almost things that happen right now it's almost funny to see it's like oh Google does funny to see it's like oh Google does funny to see it's like oh Google does something and open AI does something something and open AI does something something and open AI does something meta does something and you know they're meta does something and you know they're meta does something and you know they're they're the same people that all talk to they're the same people that all talk to they're the same people that all talk to each other and they all one-upping each each other and they all one-upping each each other and they all one-upping each other and they're all capable of other and they're all capable of other and they're all capable of implementing each other's work given a

implementing each other's work given a implementing each other's work given a month or two after somebody has an month or two after somebody has an month or two after somebody has an announcement of that but there's a announcement of that but there's a announcement of that but there's a there's a whole world of possible there's a whole world of possible there's a whole world of possible approaches to machine learning and I approaches to machine learning and I approaches to machine learning and I think that we probably will in hindsight think that we probably will in hindsight think that we probably will in hindsight go back and see it's like yeah that was go back and see it's like yeah that was go back and see it's like yeah that was kind of clearly predicted by this early kind of clearly predicted by this early kind of clearly predicted by this early paper here uh you know and this turns paper here uh you know and this turns paper here uh you know and this turns out that if you do this and this and out that if you do this and this and out that if you do this and this and take this result from uh from animal take this result from uh from animal take this result from uh from animal training and this thing from training and this thing from training and this thing from Neuroscience over here and put it Neuroscience over here and put it Neuroscience over here and put it together and set up this curriculum for together and set up this curriculum for together and set up this curriculum for them to learn in that that's kind of them to learn in that that's kind of them to learn in that that's kind of what it took you don't have too many what it took you don't have too many what it took you don't have too many people now that are still saying it's people now that are still saying it's people now that are still saying it's not possible or it's going to take not possible or it's going to take not possible or it's going to take hundreds of years and 10 years ago you hundreds of years and 10 years ago you hundreds of years and 10 years ago you would get you would colle get a would get you would colle get a would get you would colle get a collection of experts and you would have collection of experts and you would have collection of experts and you would have a decent Chunk on the margin that either a decent Chunk on the margin that either a decent Chunk on the margin that either say not possible or couple hundred years say not possible or couple hundred years say not possible or couple hundred years might be centuries and the median might be centuries and the median might be centuries and the median estimate would be like 50 70 years and estimate would be like 50 70 years and estimate would be like 50 70 years and it's been coming down and I know with me it's been coming down and I know with me it's been coming down and I know with me saying 8 years for something that still saying 8 years for something that still saying 8 years for something that still puts me on the optimistic side but it's puts me on the optimistic side but it's puts me on the optimistic side but it's not crazy out in the fringes and just not crazy out in the fringes and just not crazy out in the fringes and just being able to look at that at a a meta being able to look at that at a a meta being able to look at that at a a meta level about the trend of the the uh the level about the trend of the the uh the level about the trend of the the uh the trend of the predictions going down trend of the predictions going down trend of the predictions going down there the idea that something could be there the idea that something could be there the idea that something could be happening relatively soon now I do not happening relatively soon now I do not happening relatively soon now I do not believe in fast takeoffs you know that's believe in fast takeoffs you know that's believe in fast takeoffs you know that's one of the safety issues that people say one of the safety issues that people say one of the safety issues that people say it's like oh it's going to go f and the it's like oh it's going to go f and the it's like oh it's going to go f and the AI is going to take over the world AI is going to take over the world AI is going to take over the world there's a lot of reasons I don't think there's a lot of reasons I don't think there's a lot of reasons I don't think that's a credible position that's a credible position that's a credible position and I think that we will go from a point and I think that we will go from a point and I think that we will go from a point where we start seeing things that that

where we start seeing things that that where we start seeing things that that credibly look like uh look like animals credibly look like uh look like animals credibly look like uh look like animals behaviors and uh have a human voice box behaviors and uh have a human voice box behaviors and uh have a human voice box wired into them uh it's like I tried to wired into them uh it's like I tried to wired into them uh it's like I tried to get Elon uh to say it's like you're get Elon uh to say it's like you're get Elon uh to say it's like you're you're Pig and neuralink give it a human you're Pig and neuralink give it a human you're Pig and neuralink give it a human voice box and let it start I learning voice box and let it start I learning voice box and let it start I learning human words I I think that you know I human words I I think that you know I human words I I think that you know I think animal intelligence is closer to think animal intelligence is closer to think animal intelligence is closer to human intelligence and a lot of people human intelligence and a lot of people human intelligence and a lot of people like to think and I think that culture like to think and I think that culture like to think and I think that culture and modalities of IO are uh make the and modalities of IO are uh make the and modalities of IO are uh make the gulf seem a lot bigger than it actually gulf seem a lot bigger than it actually gulf seem a lot bigger than it actually is there's just that smooth spectrum of is there's just that smooth spectrum of is there's just that smooth spectrum of how the brain developed and cortexes and how the brain developed and cortexes and how the brain developed and cortexes and scaling of different things going on scaling of different things going on scaling of different things going on there cultural modalities of IO yes there cultural modalities of IO yes there cultural modalities of IO yes language is um the sort of lost and language is um the sort of lost and language is um the sort of lost and translation conceals a lot of translation conceals a lot of translation conceals a lot of intelligence and uh so you when you intelligence and uh so you when you intelligence and uh so you when you think about Signs of Life or AGI you're think about Signs of Life or AGI you're think about Signs of Life or AGI you're thinking thinking thinking about human interpretable science so the about human interpretable science so the about human interpretable science so the example I give if we get to the point example I give if we get to the point example I give if we get to the point where you've got a learning disabled where you've got a learning disabled where you've got a learning disabled toddler some some kind of real special toddler some some kind of real special toddler some some kind of real special needs uh child that can still interact needs uh child that can still interact needs uh child that can still interact with their favorite TV show and video with their favorite TV show and video with their favorite TV show and video game and can be trained and learn in game and can be trained and learn in game and can be trained and learn in some appreciably humanlike way at that some appreciably humanlike way at that some appreciably humanlike way at that point you can deploy an army of point you can deploy an army of point you can deploy an army of Engineers cognitive scientists education Engineers cognitive scientists education Engineers cognitive scientists education developmental uh developmental education developmental uh developmental education developmental uh developmental education people and you've got so many advantages people and you've got so many advantages people and you've got so many advantages there unlike real education where you there unlike real education where you there unlike real education where you can do roll backs and AB testing and you can do roll backs and AB testing and you can do roll backs and AB testing and you can find a golden path through a can find a golden path through a can find a golden path through a curriculum of different things if you curriculum of different things if you curriculum of different things if you get to that point learning disabled get to that point learning disabled get to that point learning disabled toddler I think that it's I it's going

toddler I think that it's I it's going toddler I think that it's I it's going to be a done deal do but do you think to be a done deal do but do you think to be a done deal do but do you think we'll we'll know it when we see it so uh we'll we'll know it when we see it so uh we'll we'll know it when we see it so uh there's there's been a lot of really there's there's been a lot of really there's there's been a lot of really interesting General learning progress interesting General learning progress interesting General learning progress from Deep Mind open the eye a little bit from Deep Mind open the eye a little bit from Deep Mind open the eye a little bit to I tend to believe that Tesla to I tend to believe that Tesla to I tend to believe that Tesla autopilot deserves a lot more credit autopilot deserves a lot more credit autopilot deserves a lot more credit than is getting for making progress on than is getting for making progress on than is getting for making progress on the General on sort of on the doing the the General on sort of on the doing the the General on sort of on the doing the multitask learning thing and increasing multitask learning thing and increasing multitask learning thing and increasing the number of tasks and automating that the number of tasks and automating that the number of tasks and automating that uh process of uh sort of learning from uh process of uh sort of learning from uh process of uh sort of learning from The Edge discovering the edge cases and The Edge discovering the edge cases and The Edge discovering the edge cases and learning from the edge cases that is learning from the edge cases that is learning from the edge cases that is it's really approaching from a different it's really approaching from a different it's really approaching from a different angle the general learning problem of angle the general learning problem of angle the general learning problem of AGI but the more clear approach comes AGI but the more clear approach comes AGI but the more clear approach comes from Deep Mind where you have these kind from Deep Mind where you have these kind from Deep Mind where you have these kind of game situations and you uh build of game situations and you uh build of game situations and you uh build systems there but I I don't know systems there but I I don't know systems there but I I don't know um people seem to be um people seem to be um people seem to be quite um yeah there will always be quite um yeah there will always be quite um yeah there will always be people that just won't believe it and I people that just won't believe it and I people that just won't believe it and I fundamentally don't care I mean I don't fundamentally don't care I mean I don't fundamentally don't care I mean I don't care if they don't believe it I you know care if they don't believe it I you know care if they don't believe it I you know when it starts doing people's jobs and I when it starts doing people's jobs and I when it starts doing people's jobs and I mean like I don't care about the mean like I don't care about the mean like I don't care about the philosophical zombie argument at all philosophical zombie argument at all philosophical zombie argument at all absolutely absolutely but will you do absolutely absolutely but will you do absolutely absolutely but will you do you think you will notice that something you think you will notice that something you think you will notice that something special has happened here and or um special has happened here and or um special has happened here and or um because to me I've been noticing a lot because to me I've been noticing a lot because to me I've been noticing a lot of special things I think you a lot of of special things I think you a lot of of special things I think you a lot of credit should go to Deep Mind for Alpha credit should go to Deep Mind for Alpha credit should go to Deep Mind for Alpha zero uh that was truly special through

zero uh that was truly special through zero uh that was truly special through selfplay mechanisms achieve s of solve selfplay mechanisms achieve s of solve selfplay mechanisms achieve s of solve problems that used to be thought problems that used to be thought problems that used to be thought unsolvable like the game of Go also I unsolvable like the game of Go also I unsolvable like the game of Go also I mean protein folding starting to get mean protein folding starting to get mean protein folding starting to get into that space where learning is doing into that space where learning is doing into that space where learning is doing at first there's not it it wasn't ENT at first there's not it it wasn't ENT at first there's not it it wasn't ENT learning and so now it's end to- end learning and so now it's end to- end learning and so now it's end to- end learning of the of a very difficult learning of the of a very difficult learning of the of a very difficult previously thought on solving problem of previously thought on solving problem of previously thought on solving problem of protein folding and so um yeah where protein folding and so um yeah where protein folding and so um yeah where where do you think would be a a really where do you think would be a a really where do you think would be a a really magical moment for you uh there have magical moment for you uh there have magical moment for you uh there have been incredible things happening in been incredible things happening in been incredible things happening in recent years like you say all of the the recent years like you say all of the the recent years like you say all of the the things from deep-minded open AI that things from deep-minded open AI that things from deep-minded open AI that have been huge showpiece things but when have been huge showpiece things but when have been huge showpiece things but when you really get down to it and you read you really get down to it and you read you really get down to it and you read the papers and you look at the way the the papers and you look at the way the the papers and you look at the way the models are going you know it's it's models are going you know it's it's models are going you know it's it's still like a feed forward you push still like a feed forward you push still like a feed forward you push something in something comes out I on something in something comes out I on something in something comes out I on the end I mean maybe there's diffusion the end I mean maybe there's diffusion the end I mean maybe there's diffusion models or Monte Carlo Tre rollouts and models or Monte Carlo Tre rollouts and models or Monte Carlo Tre rollouts and different things going on but it's not a different things going on but it's not a different things going on but it's not a being it's not close to a being I am being it's not close to a being I am being it's not close to a being I am that's that's going through a you know a that's that's going through a you know a that's that's going through a you know a lifelong learning process so you want lifelong learning process so you want lifelong learning process so you want something that's kind of give signs of a something that's kind of give signs of a something that's kind of give signs of a being like what's the difference between being like what's the difference between being like what's the difference between a neural network a feed forward neural a neural network a feed forward neural a neural network a feed forward neural network and a network and a network and a being where's the fundamentally the being where's the fundamentally the being where's the fundamentally the brain is a recurrent neural Network brain is a recurrent neural Network brain is a recurrent neural Network generating an action policy I mean it's generating an action policy I mean it's generating an action policy I mean it's implemented on a biological substrate implemented on a biological substrate implemented on a biological substrate and and it's interesting thinking about and and it's interesting thinking about and and it's interesting thinking about things like that where we know things like that where we know things like that where we know fundamentally the brain is not a

fundamentally the brain is not a fundamentally the brain is not a convolutional neural network or a convolutional neural network or a convolutional neural network or a Transformer uh those are specialized Transformer uh those are specialized Transformer uh those are specialized things that that are very valuable for things that that are very valuable for things that that are very valuable for what we're doing but it's not the way what we're doing but it's not the way what we're doing but it's not the way the brain's doing now I do think the brain's doing now I do think the brain's doing now I do think Consciousness and AI in general uh is a Consciousness and AI in general uh is a Consciousness and AI in general uh is a substrate independent mechanism where it substrate independent mechanism where it substrate independent mechanism where it doesn't have to be implemented the way doesn't have to be implemented the way doesn't have to be implemented the way the brain is but if you've only got one the brain is but if you've only got one the brain is but if you've only got one existence proof there's certainly some existence proof there's certainly some existence proof there's certainly some value in caring about what it says and value in caring about what it says and value in caring about what it says and does um and so the the idea that does um and so the the idea that does um and so the the idea that anything that can be done with a narrow anything that can be done with a narrow anything that can be done with a narrow AI that you can quantify up a loss AI that you can quantify up a loss AI that you can quantify up a loss function for or reward mechanism you're function for or reward mechanism you're function for or reward mechanism you're almost certainly going to be able to almost certainly going to be able to almost certainly going to be able to produce something that's more resource produce something that's more resource produce something that's more resource effective to train and deploy and use in effective to train and deploy and use in effective to train and deploy and use in an inference mode you know train a whole an inference mode you know train a whole an inference mode you know train a whole lot use in an inference but uh a living lot use in an inference but uh a living lot use in an inference but uh a living being is going to be something that's a being is going to be something that's a being is going to be something that's a continuous lifelong learned task continuous lifelong learned task continuous lifelong learned task agnostic thing and and the lifelong agnostic thing and and the lifelong agnostic thing and and the lifelong learning is really important too and the learning is really important too and the learning is really important too and the long-term memory so memory is a is a big long-term memory so memory is a is a big long-term memory so memory is a is a big weird we've got you know again I have weird we've got you know again I have weird we've got you know again I have all the respect in the world for the all the respect in the world for the all the respect in the world for the amazing things that are being done now amazing things that are being done now amazing things that are being done now but sometimes they can be taken a little but sometimes they can be taken a little but sometimes they can be taken a little bit out of context with things like uh bit out of context with things like uh bit out of context with things like uh like there's some smok and mirrors going like there's some smok and mirrors going like there's some smok and mirrors going on like the gate the recent work the on like the gate the recent work the on like the gate the recent work the multitask learning stuff you know it's multitask learning stuff you know it's multitask learning stuff you know it's amazing that it's the one it's one model amazing that it's the one it's one model amazing that it's the one it's one model that plays all the Atari games I am as that plays all the Atari games I am as that plays all the Atari games I am as well was doing all of these other things well was doing all of these other things well was doing all of these other things but I of course it didn't learn to do but I of course it didn't learn to do but I of course it didn't learn to do all of those it was instructed in doing all of those it was instructed in doing all of those it was instructed in doing that by other reinforcement Learners that by other reinforcement Learners that by other reinforcement Learners going through and doing that and even in

going through and doing that and even in going through and doing that and even in the case of all the games it's still the case of all the games it's still the case of all the games it's still going with a specific hand-coded reward going with a specific hand-coded reward going with a specific hand-coded reward function in each of those Atari games function in each of those Atari games function in each of those Atari games where it's not that you know how does it where it's not that you know how does it where it's not that you know how does it it just wants to spend its Summer it just wants to spend its Summer it just wants to spend its Summer Afternoon playing Atari because that's Afternoon playing Atari because that's Afternoon playing Atari because that's the most interesting thing for it so the most interesting thing for it so the most interesting thing for it so it's again not a general it's not it's again not a general it's not it's again not a general it's not learning the way humans learn and learning the way humans learn and learning the way humans learn and there's I believe a lot of things that there's I believe a lot of things that there's I believe a lot of things that are challenging to make a loss function are challenging to make a loss function are challenging to make a loss function for that you can train uh through these for that you can train uh through these for that you can train uh through these existing conventional things we are existing conventional things we are existing conventional things we are going to chip away at all the things going to chip away at all the things going to chip away at all the things that people do um that we can turn into that people do um that we can turn into that people do um that we can turn into narrow AI problems and billions of narrow AI problems and billions of narrow AI problems and billions of probably trillions of dollars of value probably trillions of dollars of value probably trillions of dollars of value are going to be created by that but are going to be created by that but are going to be created by that but there's still going to be a set of there's still going to be a set of there's still going to be a set of things and we've got questionable cases things and we've got questionable cases things and we've got questionable cases like the self-driving car where it's like the self-driving car where it's like the self-driving car where it's possible it's not my bet but it's it's possible it's not my bet but it's it's possible it's not my bet but it's it's plausible that the long taale could be plausible that the long taale could be plausible that the long taale could be problematic enough that that really does problematic enough that that really does problematic enough that that really does require a full-on artificial general require a full-on artificial general require a full-on artificial general intelligence I the counter argument is intelligence I the counter argument is intelligence I the counter argument is that data solves almost every everything that data solves almost every everything that data solves almost every everything is an interpolation problem if you have is an interpolation problem if you have is an interpolation problem if you have enough data and Tesla may be able to get enough data and Tesla may be able to get enough data and Tesla may be able to get enough data I from all their deployed enough data I from all their deployed enough data I from all their deployed stuff to be able to work like that but stuff to be able to work like that but stuff to be able to work like that but maybe not and there are all the other maybe not and there are all the other maybe not and there are all the other problems about like say you want to have problems about like say you want to have problems about like say you want to have a strategy meeting and you want to go a strategy meeting and you want to go a strategy meeting and you want to go ahead and bring in all of your remote ahead and bring in all of your remote ahead and bring in all of your remote workers and your consultants and you workers and your consultants and you workers and your consultants and you want a world where some of those could want a world where some of those could want a world where some of those could be AIS that are you know that are be AIS that are you know that are be AIS that are you know that are talking and interacting with you in a an talking and interacting with you in a an talking and interacting with you in a an area that is too murky to have a crisp area that is too murky to have a crisp area that is too murky to have a crisp loss function but they still have things loss function but they still have things loss function but they still have things that on some level they're they're

that on some level they're they're that on some level they're they're rewarded on some internal level for rewarded on some internal level for rewarded on some internal level for building a valuable to humans uh kind of building a valuable to humans uh kind of building a valuable to humans uh kind of life and ability to interact with things life and ability to interact with things life and ability to interact with things see I I still think that uh self-driving see I I still think that uh self-driving see I I still think that uh self-driving car solving that problem will take us car solving that problem will take us car solving that problem will take us very far towards AGI you might not need very far towards AGI you might not need very far towards AGI you might not need AGI but I I'm really inspired by what AGI but I I'm really inspired by what AGI but I I'm really inspired by what autopilot is doing uh weo so the some of autopilot is doing uh weo so the some of autopilot is doing uh weo so the some of the other companies I think weo leads the other companies I think weo leads the other companies I think weo leads the way there is also really interesting the way there is also really interesting the way there is also really interesting but they don't have quite as ambitious but they don't have quite as ambitious but they don't have quite as ambitious of an effort in terms of learning based of an effort in terms of learning based of an effort in terms of learning based sort of data hungry approach to driving sort of data hungry approach to driving sort of data hungry approach to driving which I think is very close to the kind which I think is very close to the kind which I think is very close to the kind of thing that would take us far towards of thing that would take us far towards of thing that would take us far towards AGI yeah and it's a it's a funny thing AGI yeah and it's a it's a funny thing AGI yeah and it's a it's a funny thing because as far as I can tell Elon is because as far as I can tell Elon is because as far as I can tell Elon is completely serious about all of his completely serious about all of his completely serious about all of his concerns about AGI you know being an concerns about AGI you know being an concerns about AGI you know being an existential threat and you know I I existential threat and you know I I existential threat and you know I I tried to draw him out to talk about Ai tried to draw him out to talk about Ai tried to draw him out to talk about Ai and he just didn't want to and I think and he just didn't want to and I think and he just didn't want to and I think that you know I get that little that you know I get that little that you know I get that little fatalistic sense from him it's weird fatalistic sense from him it's weird fatalistic sense from him it's weird because his company could very well be because his company could very well be because his company could very well be the leading company leading towards a the leading company leading towards a the leading company leading towards a lot of that where uh Tesla being a super lot of that where uh Tesla being a super lot of that where uh Tesla being a super pragmatic company uh that's doing things pragmatic company uh that's doing things pragmatic company uh that's doing things because they really want to solve this because they really want to solve this because they really want to solve this actual problem it's a different vibe actual problem it's a different vibe actual problem it's a different vibe than the the research oriented companies than the the research oriented companies than the the research oriented companies where it's a great time to be an AI where it's a great time to be an AI where it's a great time to be an AI researcher you've got your pick of researcher you've got your pick of researcher you've got your pick of trillion dollar companies that will you trillion dollar companies that will you trillion dollar companies that will you know that will pay you to kind of work know that will pay you to kind of work know that will pay you to kind of work on the problems you're interested in but on the problems you're interested in but on the problems you're interested in but that's not necessarily driving hard that's not necessarily driving hard that's not necessarily driving hard towards the the core problem of AGI as towards the the core problem of AGI as towards the the core problem of AGI as something that's going to produce a lot something that's going to produce a lot something that's going to produce a lot of value by doing things that you know

of value by doing things that you know of value by doing things that you know that people currently do or would like that people currently do or would like that people currently do or would like to do I mean I have a million questions to do I mean I have a million questions to do I mean I have a million questions to you uh about your ideas about AGI but to you uh about your ideas about AGI but to you uh about your ideas about AGI but do you do you do you think it needs to be embodied do you think it needs to be embodied do you think it needs to be embodied do you think it needs to have a body to start think it needs to have a body to start think it needs to have a body to start to um notice the signs of life and to to um notice the signs of life and to to um notice the signs of life and to develop the kind of system that's able develop the kind of system that's able develop the kind of system that's able to reason perceive the world in the way to reason perceive the world in the way to reason perceive the world in the way that AGI should and uh act in the world that AGI should and uh act in the world that AGI should and uh act in the world so should we be thinking about robots or so should we be thinking about robots or so should we be thinking about robots or can this be achieved in a purely digital can this be achieved in a purely digital can this be achieved in a purely digital system so I have a clear opinion on that system so I have a clear opinion on that system so I have a clear opinion on that and that's that no it does not need to and that's that no it does not need to and that's that no it does not need to be embodied in the physical world where be embodied in the physical world where be embodied in the physical world where you could say most of my career is about you could say most of my career is about you could say most of my career is about making simulated Virtual Worlds you know making simulated Virtual Worlds you know making simulated Virtual Worlds you know and games are virtual reality and so on and games are virtual reality and so on and games are virtual reality and so on a fundamental level I believe that you a fundamental level I believe that you a fundamental level I believe that you can make a simulated environment that can make a simulated environment that can make a simulated environment that provides much of the value of what the provides much of the value of what the provides much of the value of what the real environment does and restricting real environment does and restricting real environment does and restricting yourself to uh operating at real time in yourself to uh operating at real time in yourself to uh operating at real time in the physical world with physical objects the physical world with physical objects the physical world with physical objects I think is an enormous handicap I mean I think is an enormous handicap I mean I think is an enormous handicap I mean that's one of the real lessons driven that's one of the real lessons driven that's one of the real lessons driven home by all my Aerospace work is that I home by all my Aerospace work is that I home by all my Aerospace work is that I you know reality is a in so many you know reality is a in so many you know reality is a in so many ways there we're dealing with all the ways there we're dealing with all the ways there we're dealing with all the mechanical components like everything mechanical components like everything mechanical components like everything fails Murphy's Law even if you've done fails Murphy's Law even if you've done fails Murphy's Law even if you've done it right before on your fifth one might it right before on your fifth one might it right before on your fifth one might come out differently so yeah I think come out differently so yeah I think come out differently so yeah I think that anybody that that is all in on the that anybody that that is all in on the that anybody that that is all in on the embodied aspect of it they are tying a embodied aspect of it they are tying a embodied aspect of it they are tying a huge weight to their ankles and I think huge weight to their ankles and I think huge weight to their ankles and I think that I I would almost count them out

that I I would almost count them out that I I would almost count them out anybody that's making that a Cornerstone anybody that's making that a Cornerstone anybody that's making that a Cornerstone of their belief about it I would almost of their belief about it I would almost of their belief about it I would almost write them off as being worried about write them off as being worried about write them off as being worried about them getting to AGI first I was very them getting to AGI first I was very them getting to AGI first I was very surprised that elon's big on the uh the surprised that elon's big on the uh the surprised that elon's big on the uh the humanoid robots I mean like the NASA humanoid robots I mean like the NASA humanoid robots I mean like the NASA robonaut stuff was always like almost a robonaut stuff was always like almost a robonaut stuff was always like almost a gag line like what are you doing people gag line like what are you doing people gag line like what are you doing people well that's very interesting cuz I he well that's very interesting cuz I he well that's very interesting cuz I he has a very pragmatic view of that that's has a very pragmatic view of that that's has a very pragmatic view of that that's just just just the um a way to solve a particular the um a way to solve a particular the um a way to solve a particular problem in a factory now I do think that problem in a factory now I do think that problem in a factory now I do think that once you have an AGI robotic bodies once you have an AGI robotic bodies once you have an AGI robotic bodies humanoid bodies are going to be humanoid bodies are going to be humanoid bodies are going to be enormously valuable I just don't think enormously valuable I just don't think enormously valuable I just don't think they're helpful getting to AGI well he they're helpful getting to AGI well he they're helpful getting to AGI well he has a very sort of practical view which has a very sort of practical view which has a very sort of practical view which I disagree with and argue with him but I disagree with and argue with him but I disagree with and argue with him but is a practical view that there's you is a practical view that there's you is a practical view that there's you know you could transfer the the problem know you could transfer the the problem know you could transfer the the problem of driving to the problem of uh robotic of driving to the problem of uh robotic of driving to the problem of uh robotic manipulation because so much of it is manipulation because so much of it is manipulation because so much of it is perception it's perception and action perception it's perception and action perception it's perception and action and it's just a different context and so and it's just a different context and so and it's just a different context and so you can apply all the same kind of data you can apply all the same kind of data you can apply all the same kind of data engine learning processes to a different engine learning processes to a different engine learning processes to a different environment and so why not apply it to environment and so why not apply it to environment and so why not apply it to the humanoid robot environment but um I the humanoid robot environment but um I the humanoid robot environment but um I think I I do think that there's a think I I do think that there's a think I I do think that there's a certain magic to the embodied robot certain magic to the embodied robot certain magic to the embodied robot that may be the thing that finally that may be the thing that finally that may be the thing that finally convinces people but again I don't convinces people but again I don't convinces people but again I don't really care that much about convincing really care that much about convincing really care that much about convincing people you know the the world that I'm people you know the the world that I'm people you know the the world that I'm looking towards is you know you I you looking towards is you know you I you looking towards is you know you I you you go to the website and say I want you go to the website and say I want you go to the website and say I want five Frank one A's to you know to work five Frank one A's to you know to work five Frank one A's to you know to work on my team today and they all spin up

on my team today and they all spin up on my team today and they all spin up and they start showing up in your Zoom and they start showing up in your Zoom and they start showing up in your Zoom meetings to push to push back but also meetings to push to push back but also meetings to push to push back but also to agree with you but first to push back to agree with you but first to push back to agree with you but first to push back I do think you need to convince people I do think you need to convince people I do think you need to convince people for them to welcome that thing into your for them to welcome that thing into your for them to welcome that thing into your into their life I think there's enough into their life I think there's enough into their life I think there's enough businesses that operate on an objective businesses that operate on an objective businesses that operate on an objective kind of profit loss sort of basis that I kind of profit loss sort of basis that I kind of profit loss sort of basis that I mean if you look at how many things mean if you look at how many things mean if you look at how many things again talking about the the world as an again talking about the the world as an again talking about the the world as an evolutionary space there when you do evolutionary space there when you do evolutionary space there when you do have free markets and you have have free markets and you have have free markets and you have entrepreneurs uh you're going to have entrepreneurs uh you're going to have entrepreneurs uh you're going to have people that are going to be willing to people that are going to be willing to people that are going to be willing to go out and try whatever crazy things and go out and try whatever crazy things and go out and try whatever crazy things and when it proves to be beneficial you know when it proves to be beneficial you know when it proves to be beneficial you know there's fast followers in all sorts of there's fast followers in all sorts of there's fast followers in all sorts of places yeah and and you're saying that I places yeah and and you're saying that I places yeah and and you're saying that I mean you know quake and VR is a kind of mean you know quake and VR is a kind of mean you know quake and VR is a kind of embodiment but just in in a digital embodiment but just in in a digital embodiment but just in in a digital world and if if you're able to world and if if you're able to world and if if you're able to demonstrate if you're able to do demonstrate if you're able to do demonstrate if you're able to do something productive in that kind of something productive in that kind of something productive in that kind of digital digital digital reality uh then then AGI doesn't need to reality uh then then AGI doesn't need to reality uh then then AGI doesn't need to have a body yeah so like one of the have a body yeah so like one of the have a body yeah so like one of the really practical technical questions really practical technical questions really practical technical questions that I kind of keep arguing with myself that I kind of keep arguing with myself that I kind of keep arguing with myself over if you're doing a training and over if you're doing a training and over if you're doing a training and learning and you've got like you can learning and you've got like you can learning and you've got like you can watch Sesame Street and you can play watch Sesame Street and you can play watch Sesame Street and you can play Master System games or something is it Master System games or something is it Master System games or something is it enough to have just a video feed that enough to have just a video feed that enough to have just a video feed that that is that video coming in in or that is that video coming in in or that is that video coming in in or should it literally be on a virtual TV should it literally be on a virtual TV should it literally be on a virtual TV set in a virtual room even if it's you set in a virtual room even if it's you set in a virtual room even if it's you know a simple room just to have that know a simple room just to have that know a simple room just to have that sense of you're looking at a 2d sense of you're looking at a 2d sense of you're looking at a 2d projection on a screen versus having the projection on a screen versus having the projection on a screen versus having the screen beam directly into your retinas screen beam directly into your retinas screen beam directly into your retinas and I you know I think it's possible to

and I you know I think it's possible to and I you know I think it's possible to maybe get past some of these signs of maybe get past some of these signs of maybe get past some of these signs of Life of things with the uh just kind of Life of things with the uh just kind of Life of things with the uh just kind of projected directly into the receptor projected directly into the receptor projected directly into the receptor Fields but eventually for more uh kind Fields but eventually for more uh kind Fields but eventually for more uh kind of human emotional connection for things of human emotional connection for things of human emotional connection for things probably having some VR room with a lot probably having some VR room with a lot probably having some VR room with a lot of screens in it for the AI to be of screens in it for the AI to be of screens in it for the AI to be learning in is likely helpful it may be learning in is likely helpful it may be learning in is likely helpful it may be a world of different AIS interacting a world of different AIS interacting a world of different AIS interacting with each other that selfplay I do think with each other that selfplay I do think with each other that selfplay I do think is one of the critical things where is one of the critical things where is one of the critical things where socialization wise one of the other socialization wise one of the other socialization wise one of the other limitations I set for myself thinking limitations I set for myself thinking limitations I set for myself thinking about thing these is I I need something about thing these is I I need something about thing these is I I need something that is at least potentially real time that is at least potentially real time that is at least potentially real time because I want it's nice you can always because I want it's nice you can always because I want it's nice you can always slow down time you can run on a subscale slow down time you can run on a subscale slow down time you can run on a subscale system and and test an algorithm at some system and and test an algorithm at some system and and test an algorithm at some lower level and if you you got extra lower level and if you you got extra lower level and if you you got extra horsepower running it faster than real horsepower running it faster than real horsepower running it faster than real time is a great thing but I want to be time is a great thing but I want to be time is a great thing but I want to be able to um to have the AIS either able to um to have the AIS either able to um to have the AIS either socially interact with each other or socially interact with each other or socially interact with each other or critically with actual people your sort critically with actual people your sort critically with actual people your sort of Child Development psychiatrist that of Child Development psychiatrist that of Child Development psychiatrist that comes in and and interacts and does the comes in and and interacts and does the comes in and and interacts and does the the good boy bad boy sort of thing uh as the good boy bad boy sort of thing uh as the good boy bad boy sort of thing uh as they're going through and exploring they're going through and exploring they're going through and exploring different things and it's nice to I come different things and it's nice to I come different things and it's nice to I come back to the value of constraints in a back to the value of constraints in a back to the value of constraints in a lot of ways and if I say well one of my lot of ways and if I say well one of my lot of ways and if I say well one of my constraints is real-time operation I constraints is real-time operation I constraints is real-time operation I mean it might still be a huge data mean it might still be a huge data mean it might still be a huge data center full of computers but it should center full of computers but it should center full of computers but it should be able to interact on a zoom meeting be able to interact on a zoom meeting be able to interact on a zoom meeting with people and that's how you also do with people and that's how you also do with people and that's how you also do start convincing people even if it's not start convincing people even if it's not start convincing people even if it's not a robot body moving around which a robot body moving around which a robot body moving around which eventually gets to irrefutable levels

eventually gets to irrefutable levels eventually gets to irrefutable levels but if you can go ahead and not just but if you can go ahead and not just but if you can go ahead and not just type back and forth to a GPT bot on type back and forth to a GPT bot on type back and forth to a GPT bot on something but you're literally talking something but you're literally talking something but you're literally talking to them in an embodied over Zoom form to them in an embodied over Zoom form to them in an embodied over Zoom form and working through problems with them and working through problems with them and working through problems with them or exploring situations having or exploring situations having or exploring situations having conversations that are fully stateful conversations that are fully stateful conversations that are fully stateful and learned I think that you I think and learned I think that you I think and learned I think that you I think that that's a valuable thing so I do that that's a valuable thing so I do that that's a valuable thing so I do keep all of my eyes on on things that keep all of my eyes on on things that keep all of my eyes on on things that can be implemented within sort of that can be implemented within sort of that can be implemented within sort of that 30 frames per second I kind of work and 30 frames per second I kind of work and 30 frames per second I kind of work and I think that's feasible do you think the I think that's feasible do you think the I think that's feasible do you think the most compelling experiences that first most compelling experiences that first most compelling experiences that first will be for pleasure or for business as will be for pleasure or for business as will be for pleasure or for business as they ask in airports so uh meaning is is they ask in airports so uh meaning is is they ask in airports so uh meaning is is it if it's interacting it if it's interacting it if it's interacting with AI agents will it be sort of uh with AI agents will it be sort of uh with AI agents will it be sort of uh like like like friends um friends um friends um entertainment almost like a therapist or entertainment almost like a therapist or entertainment almost like a therapist or whatever that kind of interaction or is whatever that kind of interaction or is whatever that kind of interaction or is it in the business setting something it in the business setting something it in the business setting something like you said brainstorming different like you said brainstorming different like you said brainstorming different ideas sort of this is all a different ideas sort of this is all a different ideas sort of this is all a different formulation of kind of a touring test or formulation of kind of a touring test or formulation of kind of a touring test or the spirit of the original touring test the spirit of the original touring test the spirit of the original touring test where do you think the biggest benefit where do you think the biggest benefit where do you think the biggest benefit will first come so it's going to start will first come so it's going to start will first come so it's going to start off hugely expensive I mean you're going off hugely expensive I mean you're going off hugely expensive I mean you're going to if we're still all guessing about to if we're still all guessing about to if we're still all guessing about what compute is going to be necessary I what compute is going to be necessary I what compute is going to be necessary I fall in the S side of I don't think you fall in the S side of I don't think you fall in the S side of I don't think you run the numbers and you're like 86 run the numbers and you're like 86 run the numbers and you're like 86 billion neurons 100 trillion synapses I billion neurons 100 trillion synapses I billion neurons 100 trillion synapses I don't think those all need to be weights don't think those all need to be weights don't think those all need to be weights I don't think we need models that are I don't think we need models that are I don't think we need models that are quite that big evaluated quite that quite that big evaluated quite that quite that big evaluated quite that often you know I base that on we've

often you know I base that on we've often you know I base that on we've we've got reasonable estimates of what we've got reasonable estimates of what we've got reasonable estimates of what some parts of the brain do we don't have some parts of the brain do we don't have some parts of the brain do we don't have the we don't have the neocortex formula the we don't have the neocortex formula the we don't have the neocortex formula but we kind of get some of the other but we kind of get some of the other but we kind of get some of the other sensory processing and it doesn't feel sensory processing and it doesn't feel sensory processing and it doesn't feel like we need to we can at that in like we need to we can at that in like we need to we can at that in computers for Less weights but still computers for Less weights but still computers for Less weights but still it's probably going to be thousands of it's probably going to be thousands of it's probably going to be thousands of gpus to be running uh you know a human gpus to be running uh you know a human gpus to be running uh you know a human level AGI depending on how it's level AGI depending on how it's level AGI depending on how it's implemented that might give you sort of implemented that might give you sort of implemented that might give you sort of a clan of 128 kind of runin batch uh a clan of 128 kind of runin batch uh a clan of 128 kind of runin batch uh people depending on whether there people depending on whether there people depending on whether there sparsity in the way the the weights and sparsity in the way the the weights and sparsity in the way the the weights and things are set up if it is a reasonably things are set up if it is a reasonably things are set up if it is a reasonably dense thing then just the memory dense thing then just the memory dense thing then just the memory bandwidth trade-offs means you get 128 bandwidth trade-offs means you get 128 bandwidth trade-offs means you get 128 of them at at the same time and either of them at at the same time and either of them at at the same time and either it's all feeding together learning in it's all feeding together learning in it's all feeding together learning in parallel or kind of all running together parallel or kind of all running together parallel or kind of all running together uh kind of talking to a bunch of people uh kind of talking to a bunch of people uh kind of talking to a bunch of people but still if you've got thousands of but still if you've got thousands of but still if you've got thousands of gpus uh necessary to run these things gpus uh necessary to run these things gpus uh necessary to run these things it's going to be kind of expensive where it's going to be kind of expensive where it's going to be kind of expensive where it might start off $1,000 an hour for it might start off $1,000 an hour for it might start off $1,000 an hour for your you know even post-development or your you know even post-development or your you know even post-development or something for that which would be something for that which would be something for that which would be something that you would only use for a something that you would only use for a something that you would only use for a business uh you know something where you business uh you know something where you business uh you know something where you think they're going to help you make a think they're going to help you make a think they're going to help you make a strategic decision or point out strategic decision or point out strategic decision or point out something super important but I also am something super important but I also am something super important but I also am compl completely confident that we will compl completely confident that we will compl completely confident that we will have another factor of a thousand in have another factor of a thousand in have another factor of a thousand in cost performance increase in AGI type cost performance increase in AGI type cost performance increase in AGI type calculations uh not in general computing calculations uh not in general computing calculations uh not in general computing necessarily but there's so much more necessarily but there's so much more necessarily but there's so much more that we can do with packaging making that we can do with packaging making that we can do with packaging making those right trade-offs all those same those right trade-offs all those same those right trade-offs all those same types of things that in the couple next types of things that in the couple next types of things that in the couple next couple decades thousand X easy and then

couple decades thousand X easy and then couple decades thousand X easy and then you're down to a dollar an hour and then you're down to a dollar an hour and then you're down to a dollar an hour and then you're kind of like well I should have you're kind of like well I should have you're kind of like well I should have an Entourage of AIS that are you know an Entourage of AIS that are you know an Entourage of AIS that are you know following me around helping me out on following me around helping me out on following me around helping me out on anything that I want them to do anything that I want them to do anything that I want them to do that's one interesting trajectory but that's one interesting trajectory but that's one interesting trajectory but I'll I'll I'll push back because I I I'll I'll I'll push back because I I I'll I'll I'll push back because I I have um so uh for in that case if you have um so uh for in that case if you have um so uh for in that case if you want to pay thousands of dollars it want to pay thousands of dollars it want to pay thousands of dollars it should actually provide some value I should actually provide some value I should actually provide some value I think it's easier for cheaper to think it's easier for cheaper to think it's easier for cheaper to provide uh uh to provide value via a provide uh uh to provide value via a provide uh uh to provide value via a dumb dumb dumb AI uh that will take us towards AGI to AI uh that will take us towards AGI to AI uh that will take us towards AGI to just have a friend I think there's an just have a friend I think there's an just have a friend I think there's an ocean of loneliness in the world and I ocean of loneliness in the world and I ocean of loneliness in the world and I think an effective friend that doesn't think an effective friend that doesn't think an effective friend that doesn't have to be perfect that doesn't have to have to be perfect that doesn't have to have to be perfect that doesn't have to be intelligent that has to be empathic be intelligent that has to be empathic be intelligent that has to be empathic having emotional intelligence having having emotional intelligence having having emotional intelligence having ability to remember things having ability to remember things having ability to remember things having ability to listen most of us don't ability to listen most of us don't ability to listen most of us don't listen to each other one of the things listen to each other one of the things listen to each other one of the things that love and when you care about that love and when you care about that love and when you care about somebody when you love somebody is when somebody when you love somebody is when somebody when you love somebody is when you listen and that is something we you listen and that is something we you listen and that is something we treasure about each other and if an AI treasure about each other and if an AI treasure about each other and if an AI can do that kind of thing um I think can do that kind of thing um I think can do that kind of thing um I think that provides a huge amount of value and that provides a huge amount of value and that provides a huge amount of value and very very very importantly provides value in its importantly provides value in its importantly provides value in its ability to listen and understand versus ability to listen and understand versus ability to listen and understand versus provide really good advice I think provide really good advice I think provide really good advice I think providing really good advice is very providing really good advice is very providing really good advice is very diff is is is another Next Level step diff is is is another Next Level step diff is is is another Next Level step that would that would that would um I think it's just easier to to do

um I think it's just easier to to do um I think it's just easier to to do companionship yeah I wouldn't disagree I companionship yeah I wouldn't disagree I companionship yeah I wouldn't disagree I mean I think that there's very few mean I think that there's very few mean I think that there's very few things that I would argue can't be things that I would argue can't be things that I would argue can't be reduced to a i some kind of a narrow AI reduced to a i some kind of a narrow AI reduced to a i some kind of a narrow AI I think we can do trillion dollars of I think we can do trillion dollars of I think we can do trillion dollars of value easily and all the things that can value easily and all the things that can value easily and all the things that can be done there and a lot of it can be be done there and a lot of it can be be done there and a lot of it can be done with smoke and mirrors without done with smoke and mirrors without done with smoke and mirrors without having to go the whole thing I mean having to go the whole thing I mean having to go the whole thing I mean there's going to be the equivalent of there's going to be the equivalent of there's going to be the equivalent of the Doom I the Doom version for the AGI the Doom I the Doom version for the AGI the Doom I the Doom version for the AGI that's not really AGI it's all smoking that's not really AGI it's all smoking that's not really AGI it's all smoking mirrors but it happens to do enough mirrors but it happens to do enough mirrors but it happens to do enough valuable things that it's enormously uh valuable things that it's enormously uh valuable things that it's enormously uh useful and valuable to people but at useful and valuable to people but at useful and valuable to people but at some point you do want to get to the some point you do want to get to the some point you do want to get to the point where you have the fully General point where you have the fully General point where you have the fully General thing and you stop making the spoke thing and you stop making the spoke thing and you stop making the spoke specialized systems for each thing and specialized systems for each thing and specialized systems for each thing and you wind up start using the higher level you wind up start using the higher level you wind up start using the higher level language instead of writing everything language instead of writing everything language instead of writing everything in Assembly Language what about in Assembly Language what about in Assembly Language what about Consciousness the c-word do what do you Consciousness the c-word do what do you Consciousness the c-word do what do you think that's think that's think that's fundamental to solving AGI or is it a fundamental to solving AGI or is it a fundamental to solving AGI or is it a quirk of human cognition so I think most quirk of human cognition so I think most quirk of human cognition so I think most of the arguments about Consciousness of the arguments about Consciousness of the arguments about Consciousness don't have a whole lot of Merit uh I don't have a whole lot of Merit uh I don't have a whole lot of Merit uh I think that Consciousness is kind of the think that Consciousness is kind of the think that Consciousness is kind of the way the brain feels when it's operating way the brain feels when it's operating way the brain feels when it's operating um yes and this idea that you know I do um yes and this idea that you know I do um yes and this idea that you know I do generally subscribe to sort of the generally subscribe to sort of the generally subscribe to sort of the pandemonium theories of Consciousness pandemonium theories of Consciousness pandemonium theories of Consciousness where there's all these things bubbling where there's all these things bubbling where there's all these things bubbling around and I think of them as kind of around and I think of them as kind of around and I think of them as kind of slightly randomized sparse distributed slightly randomized sparse distributed slightly randomized sparse distributed memory bit strings of things that are memory bit strings of things that are memory bit strings of things that are kind of happening recalling different kind of happening recalling different kind of happening recalling different associative memories and eventually you associative memories and eventually you associative memories and eventually you get some level of consensus and it

get some level of consensus and it get some level of consensus and it bubbles up to the point of being a bubbles up to the point of being a bubbles up to the point of being a conscious thought there and the little conscious thought there and the little conscious thought there and the little bits of stochasticity that are sitting bits of stochasticity that are sitting bits of stochasticity that are sitting on in I in this as it Cycles between on in I in this as it Cycles between on in I in this as it Cycles between different things and recalls different different things and recalls different different things and recalls different memory that's largely our imagination memory that's largely our imagination memory that's largely our imagination and and and creativity um so I don't think there's creativity um so I don't think there's creativity um so I don't think there's anything deeply magical about it anything deeply magical about it anything deeply magical about it certainly not symbolic I think it is certainly not symbolic I think it is certainly not symbolic I think it is generally the flow of these uh generally the flow of these uh generally the flow of these uh associations drawn up with stochatic associations drawn up with stochatic associations drawn up with stochatic stochastic noise overlaid on top of them stochastic noise overlaid on top of them stochastic noise overlaid on top of them and I think so much of that is like it and I think so much of that is like it and I think so much of that is like it depends on what you happen to have in depends on what you happen to have in depends on what you happen to have in your field of view as some other thought your field of view as some other thought your field of view as some other thought was occurring to you that overlay and was occurring to you that overlay and was occurring to you that overlay and blend into the next key that queries blend into the next key that queries blend into the next key that queries your memory for things and that kind of your memory for things and that kind of your memory for things and that kind of determines how you know how your chain determines how you know how your chain determines how you know how your chain of Consciousness goes so that's kind of of Consciousness goes so that's kind of of Consciousness goes so that's kind of the qualia the subjective experience of the qualia the subjective experience of the qualia the subjective experience of it is not is not essential for it is not is not essential for it is not is not essential for intelligence I don't think so I don't intelligence I don't think so I don't intelligence I don't think so I don't think there's anything really important think there's anything really important think there's anything really important there what about some other human there what about some other human there what about some other human qualities like fear of mortality and qualities like fear of mortality and qualities like fear of mortality and stuff like that like um the fact that stuff like that like um the fact that stuff like that like um the fact that this ride ends is that is that important this ride ends is that is that important this ride ends is that is that important like you you you know we talked so much like you you you know we talked so much like you you you know we talked so much about this conversation about the value about this conversation about the value about this conversation about the value of death lines and constraints um do you of death lines and constraints um do you of death lines and constraints um do you think that's important for intelligence think that's important for intelligence think that's important for intelligence that's actually a super interesting that's actually a super interesting that's actually a super interesting angle that I that I don't usually take angle that I that I don't usually take angle that I that I don't usually take on that about has death being a deadline on that about has death being a deadline on that about has death being a deadline that forces you to make better decisions that forces you to make better decisions that forces you to make better decisions because I have heard people talk about because I have heard people talk about because I have heard people talk about how if you have immortality people are how if you have immortality people are how if you have immortality people are going to stop stop trying and working on going to stop stop trying and working on going to stop stop trying and working on things because they've got all the Time things because they've got all the Time things because they've got all the Time in the World um but I would say that I in the World um but I would say that I in the World um but I would say that I don't expect it to be a super critical

don't expect it to be a super critical don't expect it to be a super critical uh thing that uh that a sense of uh thing that uh that a sense of uh thing that uh that a sense of mortality and death impending death mortality and death impending death mortality and death impending death death is necessary there because those death is necessary there because those death is necessary there because those are things that they do wind up are things that they do wind up are things that they do wind up providing reward signals to us and we providing reward signals to us and we providing reward signals to us and we will be in control of the reward signals will be in control of the reward signals will be in control of the reward signals and there there will have to be and there there will have to be and there there will have to be something fundamental that causes that something fundamental that causes that something fundamental that causes that engenders Curiosity and goal setting and engenders Curiosity and goal setting and engenders Curiosity and goal setting and all of that um something is going to all of that um something is going to all of that um something is going to play in there at the reward level um you play in there at the reward level um you play in there at the reward level um you know whether it's positive or negative know whether it's positive or negative know whether it's positive or negative or both I don't have any strong opinions or both I don't have any strong opinions or both I don't have any strong opinions on exactly what it's going to be uh but on exactly what it's going to be uh but on exactly what it's going to be uh but that's that type of thing where I doubt that's that type of thing where I doubt that's that type of thing where I doubt that might be one of those half dozen that might be one of those half dozen that might be one of those half dozen key things that has to be sorted out on key things that has to be sorted out on key things that has to be sorted out on exactly what the master reward that's exactly what the master reward that's exactly what the master reward that's the meta reward over all of the uh the the meta reward over all of the uh the the meta reward over all of the uh the local task specific rewards have to be local task specific rewards have to be local task specific rewards have to be that could be that big negative reward that could be that big negative reward that could be that big negative reward of death maybe not death but ability to of death maybe not death but ability to of death maybe not death but ability to walk away from an interaction so it walk away from an interaction so it walk away from an interaction so it bothers me when people treat AI systems bothers me when people treat AI systems bothers me when people treat AI systems like like like servants so it it doesn't bother me but servants so it it doesn't bother me but servants so it it doesn't bother me but I mean it it's it really is Drawing the I mean it it's it really is Drawing the I mean it it's it really is Drawing the Line Line Line between what an a system could be it's between what an a system could be it's between what an a system could be it's limiting the possibility what an a limiting the possibility what an a limiting the possibility what an a system could be it's treating them as system could be it's treating them as system could be it's treating them as just as tools now that's of course for just as tools now that's of course for just as tools now that's of course for from a narrow AI perspective there's so from a narrow AI perspective there's so from a narrow AI perspective there's so many oh problems that narrow AI could many oh problems that narrow AI could many oh problems that narrow AI could solve just like you said as in in its solve just like you said as in in its solve just like you said as in in its form of of a tool but it could also be a form of of a tool but it could also be a form of of a tool but it could also be a being uh which is much more than a tool

being uh which is much more than a tool being uh which is much more than a tool and to be a to become a being you have and to be a to become a being you have and to be a to become a being you have to respect that thing for being a being to respect that thing for being a being to respect that thing for being a being and for that it has to be able to have and for that it has to be able to have and for that it has to be able to have um to make its own decisions to walk um to make its own decisions to walk um to make its own decisions to walk away to say I had enough of you I would away to say I had enough of you I would away to say I had enough of you I would like to break up with you now uh you've like to break up with you now uh you've like to break up with you now uh you've not treated me well and I would like to not treated me well and I would like to not treated me well and I would like to move on so uh I think that actually that move on so uh I think that actually that move on so uh I think that actually that choice to end things so I I a couple choice to end things so I I a couple choice to end things so I I a couple things on that so on the one hand I it things on that so on the one hand I it things on that so on the one hand I it is kind of disturbing when you see is kind of disturbing when you see is kind of disturbing when you see people being like like people that are people being like like people that are people being like like people that are mean to robots and you know mean to mean to robots and you know mean to mean to robots and you know mean to Alexa whatever and that seems to speak Alexa whatever and that seems to speak Alexa whatever and that seems to speak badly about Humanity but there's also badly about Humanity but there's also badly about Humanity but there's also the exact opposite side of that where the exact opposite side of that where the exact opposite side of that where you have so many people that imbue you have so many people that imbue you have so many people that imbue Humanity in inanimate objects or things Humanity in inanimate objects or things Humanity in inanimate objects or things that are toys or that are are relatively that are toys or that are are relatively that are toys or that are are relatively limited so I think there may even be limited so I think there may even be limited so I think there may even be more more danger about people putting more more danger about people putting more more danger about people putting more emotional investment into a lot of more emotional investment into a lot of more emotional investment into a lot of these Proto AIS in different ways yeah these Proto AIS in different ways yeah these Proto AIS in different ways yeah um and then the AI would manipulate that um and then the AI would manipulate that um and then the AI would manipulate that but but as far as like the AI ethic but but as far as like the AI ethic but but as far as like the AI ethic sides of things I really stay away from sides of things I really stay away from sides of things I really stay away from any of those discussions or even really any of those discussions or even really any of those discussions or even really thinking about it it's similar with the thinking about it it's similar with the thinking about it it's similar with the safety things where I think it's just safety things where I think it's just safety things where I think it's just premature and there's a certain class of premature and there's a certain class of premature and there's a certain class of people that enjoy thinking about people that enjoy thinking about people that enjoy thinking about impractical things things that are not impractical things things that are not impractical things things that are not in the world and you know of pragmatic in the world and you know of pragmatic in the world and you know of pragmatic effect around you and I think that begin effect around you and I think that begin effect around you and I think that begin again because I don't think there's again because I don't think there's again because I don't think there's going to be a fast takeoff I think we

going to be a fast takeoff I think we going to be a fast takeoff I think we actually will have time to have these actually will have time to have these actually will have time to have these debates when we know that shape of what debates when we know that shape of what debates when we know that shape of what we're debating and some people do take a we're debating and some people do take a we're debating and some people do take a principled approach that they think it's principled approach that they think it's principled approach that they think it's going to go too fast that you really do going to go too fast that you really do going to go too fast that you really do need to get ahead of it that you need to need to get ahead of it that you need to need to get ahead of it that you need to be thinking about this because we have be thinking about this because we have be thinking about this because we have slow processes of coming to any kind of slow processes of coming to any kind of slow processes of coming to any kind of consensuses or even coming up with ideas consensuses or even coming up with ideas consensuses or even coming up with ideas about this and maybe that's uh maybe about this and maybe that's uh maybe about this and maybe that's uh maybe that's true uh I wouldn't put any of my that's true uh I wouldn't put any of my that's true uh I wouldn't put any of my money or funding into something like money or funding into something like money or funding into something like that because I don't think it's a that because I don't think it's a that because I don't think it's a problem yet and I think that we will problem yet and I think that we will problem yet and I think that we will have these signs of life when when we've have these signs of life when when we've have these signs of life when when we've got our learning disabled modler we got our learning disabled modler we got our learning disabled modler we should really start talking about some should really start talking about some should really start talking about some of the safety and ethics issues but of the safety and ethics issues but of the safety and ethics issues but probably not before then can you probably not before then can you probably not before then can you elaborate briefly about why you don't elaborate briefly about why you don't elaborate briefly about why you don't think there'll be a fast takeoff is think there'll be a fast takeoff is think there'll be a fast takeoff is there some deep intuition you have about there some deep intuition you have about there some deep intuition you have about it does it because it's grounded in the it does it because it's grounded in the it does it because it's grounded in the physical world or why yeah so it is my physical world or why yeah so it is my physical world or why yeah so it is my belief that we're going to start off belief that we're going to start off belief that we're going to start off with something that requires thousands with something that requires thousands with something that requires thousands of gpus and I I don't know if you've of gpus and I I don't know if you've of gpus and I I don't know if you've tried to go get a th GPU instance on a tried to go get a th GPU instance on a tried to go get a th GPU instance on a cloud anytime recently but these are not cloud anytime recently but these are not cloud anytime recently but these are not things that you can just go spin up things that you can just go spin up things that you can just go spin up hundreds of I there are real challenges hundreds of I there are real challenges hundreds of I there are real challenges to I mean these things are going to take to I mean these things are going to take to I mean these things are going to take data centers and data centers take years data centers and data centers take years data centers and data centers take years to build you know and the last few years to build you know and the last few years to build you know and the last few years we've seen a few of them kind of coming we've seen a few of them kind of coming we've seen a few of them kind of coming up going in different places they're big up going in different places they're big up going in different places they're big engineering efforts you can hear people engineering efforts you can hear people engineering efforts you can hear people Beman about the fact that I you know oh Beman about the fact that I you know oh Beman about the fact that I you know oh the the network was wired all wrong and the the network was wired all wrong and the the network was wired all wrong and it took them a month to go unwire it and it took them a month to go unwire it and it took them a month to go unwire it and rewire it the right way these aren't rewire it the right way these aren't rewire it the right way these aren't things that you can just magic into

things that you can just magic into things that you can just magic into existence and the idea of like the old existence and the idea of like the old existence and the idea of like the old tropes about it's going to escape onto tropes about it's going to escape onto tropes about it's going to escape onto the internet and take over other systems the internet and take over other systems the internet and take over other systems there's the fast takeoff ones are there's the fast takeoff ones are there's the fast takeoff ones are clearly nonsense because you just can't clearly nonsense because you just can't clearly nonsense because you just can't open TCP connections above a certain open TCP connections above a certain open TCP connections above a certain rate no matter how smart you are even if rate no matter how smart you are even if rate no matter how smart you are even if you have perfect hacking ability that you have perfect hacking ability that you have perfect hacking ability that take over the world in an instant sort take over the world in an instant sort take over the world in an instant sort of thing just isn't plausible at all and of thing just isn't plausible at all and of thing just isn't plausible at all and even if you had access to all of the even if you had access to all of the even if you had access to all of the resources these are going to be resources these are going to be resources these are going to be specialized systems where you're going specialized systems where you're going specialized systems where you're going to wind up with something that is to wind up with something that is to wind up with something that is architected around exactly this chip architected around exactly this chip architected around exactly this chip with this interconnect and it's not just with this interconnect and it's not just with this interconnect and it's not just going to be able to be plopped somewhere going to be able to be plopped somewhere going to be able to be plopped somewhere else now interestingly it is going to be else now interestingly it is going to be else now interestingly it is going to be something that the entire um the entire something that the entire um the entire something that the entire um the entire code for all of it will easily fit on a code for all of it will easily fit on a code for all of it will easily fit on a thumb drive that's total spy movie thumb drive that's total spy movie thumb drive that's total spy movie Thriller sorts of things where you could Thriller sorts of things where you could Thriller sorts of things where you could have hey we cracked the secret to AGI have hey we cracked the secret to AGI have hey we cracked the secret to AGI and it fits on this thumb drive and and it fits on this thumb drive and and it fits on this thumb drive and anyone could steal it now they're still anyone could steal it now they're still anyone could steal it now they're still going to have to build the right data going to have to build the right data going to have to build the right data center to deploy it and have the right center to deploy it and have the right center to deploy it and have the right kind of life experience curriculum to kind of life experience curriculum to kind of life experience curriculum to take it up to the point where it's take it up to the point where it's take it up to the point where it's valuable but the real core of it the the valuable but the real core of it the the valuable but the real core of it the the magic that's going to happen there is magic that's going to happen there is magic that's going to happen there is going to be very small you know it's going to be very small you know it's going to be very small you know it's again tens of thousands of lines of code again tens of thousands of lines of code again tens of thousands of lines of code not millions of lines of code it is not millions of lines of code it is not millions of lines of code it is possible to imagine a world as you possible to imagine a world as you possible to imagine a world as you mentioned the Spy Thriller view if it's mentioned the Spy Thriller view if it's mentioned the Spy Thriller view if it's if it's just a few lines of if it's just a few lines of if it's just a few lines of code we can imagine a world where the code we can imagine a world where the code we can imagine a world where the surface of computation is growing maybe surface of computation is growing maybe surface of computation is growing maybe growing exponentially meaning there's growing exponentially meaning there's growing exponentially meaning there's you know the the refrigerators start you know the the refrigerators start you know the the refrigerators start getting a getting a getting a GPU and uh just

GPU and uh just GPU and uh just every first of all the smartphones the every first of all the smartphones the every first of all the smartphones the billions of smartphones but maybe if billions of smartphones but maybe if billions of smartphones but maybe if there be highways through which code can there be highways through which code can there be highways through which code can spread across the entirety of the spread across the entirety of the spread across the entirety of the computation surface then you don't any computation surface then you don't any computation surface then you don't any longer have to book longer have to book longer have to book AWS um gpus there more real fundamental AWS um gpus there more real fundamental AWS um gpus there more real fundamental issues there when you start getting down issues there when you start getting down issues there when you start getting down to taking an actual problem and putting to taking an actual problem and putting to taking an actual problem and putting it on an abstract machine like that that it on an abstract machine like that that it on an abstract machine like that that has not worked out well in practice and has not worked out well in practice and has not worked out well in practice and the idea that there was always like it's the idea that there was always like it's the idea that there was always like it's always been easy to come up with ways to always been easy to come up with ways to always been easy to come up with ways to get com compute faster to say more flops get com compute faster to say more flops get com compute faster to say more flops or more uh more Giga Ops or whatever or more uh more Giga Ops or whatever or more uh more Giga Ops or whatever there that's usually the easy part but there that's usually the easy part but there that's usually the easy part but you then have interconnect and then you then have interconnect and then you then have interconnect and then memory for what goes into it and when memory for what goes into it and when memory for what goes into it and when you talk about saying well cell phones you talk about saying well cell phones you talk about saying well cell phones well you're limited to like a 5G well you're limited to like a 5G well you're limited to like a 5G connection or something on that and if connection or something on that and if connection or something on that and if you say how if you take your your you say how if you take your your you say how if you take your your calculation and you factor it across a calculation and you factor it across a calculation and you factor it across a million cell phon instead of a th gpus million cell phon instead of a th gpus million cell phon instead of a th gpus in a warehouse you might be able to have in a warehouse you might be able to have in a warehouse you might be able to have some kind of a substrate like that but some kind of a substrate like that but some kind of a substrate like that but it could be operating then at 1,000 the it could be operating then at 1,000 the it could be operating then at 1,000 the speed and so yes you could get you could speed and so yes you could get you could speed and so yes you could get you could have an AGI working there but it have an AGI working there but it have an AGI working there but it wouldn't be a real-time AGI it would be wouldn't be a real-time AGI it would be wouldn't be a real-time AGI it would be something that is operating at really a something that is operating at really a something that is operating at really a snail's pace you know much much slower snail's pace you know much much slower snail's pace you know much much slower than kind of human level thought for than kind of human level thought for than kind of human level thought for things so I'm not worried about that things so I'm not worried about that things so I'm not worried about that problem you're transferring the problem problem you're transferring the problem problem you're transferring the problem into the interconnect the communication into the interconnect the communication into the interconnect the communication the shared memory the shared memory the shared memory the the collective intelligence aspect

the the collective intelligence aspect the the collective intelligence aspect of it which is extremely difficult as of it which is extremely difficult as of it which is extremely difficult as well yeah I mean it's back to the the well yeah I mean it's back to the the well yeah I mean it's back to the the very earliest days of supercomputers you very earliest days of supercomputers you very earliest days of supercomputers you still have the the balance between still have the the balance between still have the the balance between bandwidth storage and computation and bandwidth storage and computation and bandwidth storage and computation and sometimes they're easier to get one or sometimes they're easier to get one or sometimes they're easier to get one or the other but it's been remarkably the other but it's been remarkably the other but it's been remarkably constant across all those years that you constant across all those years that you constant across all those years that you still need all still need all still need all three what do your efforts now you three what do your efforts now you three what do your efforts now you mentioned to me that you're really mentioned to me that you're really mentioned to me that you're really committing to AI at this stage what what committing to AI at this stage what what committing to AI at this stage what what do you see your life in the next few do you see your life in the next few do you see your life in the next few months years look like what what do you months years look like what what do you months years look like what what do you hope to achieve uh achieve here so I hope to achieve uh achieve here so I hope to achieve uh achieve here so I literally just this week signed a term literally just this week signed a term literally just this week signed a term sheet to to take some investment money sheet to to take some investment money sheet to to take some investment money for my company where the last two years for my company where the last two years for my company where the last two years I had backed off from meta and I was I had backed off from meta and I was I had backed off from meta and I was still doing my Consulting CTO role there still doing my Consulting CTO role there still doing my Consulting CTO role there but I had styled it as I was going to but I had styled it as I was going to but I had styled it as I was going to take the the Victorian gentleman take the the Victorian gentleman take the the Victorian gentleman scientist route where I was going to be scientist route where I was going to be scientist route where I was going to be the you know the wealthy person that was the you know the wealthy person that was the you know the wealthy person that was going go pursue science and learn about going go pursue science and learn about going go pursue science and learn about this and do experiments and honestly I'm this and do experiments and honestly I'm this and do experiments and honestly I'm surprised there aren't more people like surprised there aren't more people like surprised there aren't more people like that uh that are like me technical that uh that are like me technical that uh that are like me technical people that made a bunch of money and people that made a bunch of money and people that made a bunch of money and are interested in some of these possibly are interested in some of these possibly are interested in some of these possibly the biggest leverage point in human the biggest leverage point in human the biggest leverage point in human history I mean I know of I've heard of a history I mean I know of I've heard of a history I mean I know of I've heard of a couple uh organizations that are couple uh organizations that are couple uh organizations that are basically led by one rich techie guy basically led by one rich techie guy basically led by one rich techie guy that uh gets a few people around him to that uh gets a few people around him to that uh gets a few people around him to try to work on this but I'm surprised try to work on this but I'm surprised try to work on this but I'm surprised that there's not more that there aren't that there's not more that there aren't that there's not more that there aren't like a dozen of them I I mean maybe like a dozen of them I I mean maybe like a dozen of them I I mean maybe people are still think that it's an people are still think that it's an people are still think that it's an unapproachable problem that it's kind of

unapproachable problem that it's kind of unapproachable problem that it's kind of beyond their ability to to get a wrench beyond their ability to to get a wrench beyond their ability to to get a wrench on and have some effect on like whatever on and have some effect on like whatever on and have some effect on like whatever startups they've run before but I that startups they've run before but I that startups they've run before but I that was my kind of like with all the stuff was my kind of like with all the stuff was my kind of like with all the stuff I've learned whether it's gaming I've learned whether it's gaming I've learned whether it's gaming Aerospace whatever I I go through a Aerospace whatever I I go through a Aerospace whatever I I go through a larval phase where I'm like okay I'm larval phase where I'm like okay I'm larval phase where I'm like okay I'm sucking up all of this information sucking up all of this information sucking up all of this information trying to see is this something that I trying to see is this something that I trying to see is this something that I can actually do I is this something can actually do I is this something can actually do I is this something that's practical to devote a large chunk that's practical to devote a large chunk that's practical to devote a large chunk of my life to and I've gone through that of my life to and I've gone through that of my life to and I've gone through that with the uh with the AI machine learning with the uh with the AI machine learning with the uh with the AI machine learning space of things and and I think I've got space of things and and I think I've got space of things and and I think I've got my arms around it I've got the measure my arms around it I've got the measure my arms around it I've got the measure of it where some of the most brilliant of it where some of the most brilliant of it where some of the most brilliant people in the world are working on this people in the world are working on this people in the world are working on this problem but nobody knows exactly the problem but nobody knows exactly the problem but nobody knows exactly the path that it's going on we're throwing a path that it's going on we're throwing a path that it's going on we're throwing a lot of things at the wall and seeing lot of things at the wall and seeing lot of things at the wall and seeing what sticks I but I have a you know what sticks I but I have a you know what sticks I but I have a you know another interesting thing just learning another interesting thing just learning another interesting thing just learning about all of this the the contingency of about all of this the the contingency of about all of this the the contingency of your path to knowledge and talking about your path to knowledge and talking about your path to knowledge and talking about the associations and the context that the associations and the context that the associations and the context that you have with them where people that you have with them where people that you have with them where people that learn in the same path will have similar learn in the same path will have similar learn in the same path will have similar thought processes and I think it's thought processes and I think it's thought processes and I think it's useful that I come at this from a useful that I come at this from a useful that I come at this from a different background a different history different background a different history different background a different history than the people that have had the than the people that have had the than the people that have had the largely academic backgrounds for this largely academic backgrounds for this largely academic backgrounds for this where I have huge blind spots that that where I have huge blind spots that that where I have huge blind spots that that they could easily point out but I have a they could easily point out but I have a they could easily point out but I have a different set of experiences in history different set of experiences in history different set of experiences in history and approaches to problems and systems and approaches to problems and systems and approaches to problems and systems engineering that um you know that might engineering that um you know that might engineering that um you know that might turn out to be useful and I can afford turn out to be useful and I can afford turn out to be useful and I can afford to take that to take that to take that where uh I'm not going to be destitute I where uh I'm not going to be destitute I where uh I'm not going to be destitute I am I was you know I've been I have

am I was you know I've been I have am I was you know I've been I have enough money to fund myself working on enough money to fund myself working on enough money to fund myself working on this for the rest of my life but what I this for the rest of my life but what I this for the rest of my life but what I was Finding is that I was um I was still was Finding is that I was um I was still was Finding is that I was um I was still not committing where I had a foot firmly not committing where I had a foot firmly not committing where I had a foot firmly in the VR and meta side of things where in the VR and meta side of things where in the VR and meta side of things where in theory I've got I've got a very nice in theory I've got I've got a very nice in theory I've got I've got a very nice position there I only have to work one position there I only have to work one position there I only have to work one day a week for my uh my Consulting role day a week for my uh my Consulting role day a week for my uh my Consulting role but but I was engaging every day I'd but but I was engaging every day I'd but but I was engaging every day I'd still be like my computer's there I'd be still be like my computer's there I'd be still be like my computer's there I'd be going and checking the workplace and going and checking the workplace and going and checking the workplace and notes and testing different things and notes and testing different things and notes and testing different things and communicating with people but uh but I communicating with people but uh but I communicating with people but uh but I did make the the decision recently that did make the the decision recently that did make the the decision recently that no I'm GNA get serious I'm still GNA no I'm GNA get serious I'm still GNA no I'm GNA get serious I'm still GNA keep my ties with meta but I am keep my ties with meta but I am keep my ties with meta but I am seriously going for the AGI side of seriously going for the AGI side of seriously going for the AGI side of things and it's actually a really things and it's actually a really things and it's actually a really interesting point because a lot of it interesting point because a lot of it interesting point because a lot of it the machine learning the AI Community is the machine learning the AI Community is the machine learning the AI Community is quite large but really basically almost quite large but really basically almost quite large but really basically almost everybody has taken the samea trajectory everybody has taken the samea trajectory everybody has taken the samea trajectory through life uh in that community and through life uh in that community and through life uh in that community and it's so interesting to have somebody it's so interesting to have somebody it's so interesting to have somebody like you which with a fundamentally like you which with a fundamentally like you which with a fundamentally different trajectory and that's where different trajectory and that's where different trajectory and that's where the big Solutions can come because the big Solutions can come because the big Solutions can come because there's a kind of Silo and it's it is a there's a kind of Silo and it's it is a there's a kind of Silo and it's it is a bunch of people kind of following the bunch of people kind of following the bunch of people kind of following the same kind of set of ideas and I was same kind of set of ideas and I was same kind of set of ideas and I was really worried that I didn't want to really worried that I didn't want to really worried that I didn't want to come off as you know like an arrogant come off as you know like an arrogant come off as you know like an arrogant Outsider for things where I I have all Outsider for things where I I have all Outsider for things where I I have all the respect in the world for the work the respect in the world for the work the respect in the world for the work that's you know it's been a miracle that's you know it's been a miracle that's you know it's been a miracle decade it's we're in the midst of a decade it's we're in the midst of a decade it's we're in the midst of a scientific revolution happening now and scientific revolution happening now and scientific revolution happening now and everybody doing this is I you know these everybody doing this is I you know these everybody doing this is I you know these are the the Einstein and bors and are the the Einstein and bors and are the the Einstein and bors and whatevers of our our modern era um and I

whatevers of our our modern era um and I whatevers of our our modern era um and I was really happy to see that the the was really happy to see that the the was really happy to see that the the people that I've sat down and talked people that I've sat down and talked people that I've sat down and talked with everybody does seem to really be with everybody does seem to really be with everybody does seem to really be quite great about just happy to talk quite great about just happy to talk quite great about just happy to talk about things willing to acknowledge that about things willing to acknowledge that about things willing to acknowledge that we don't know what we're doing we're we don't know what we're doing we're we don't know what we're doing we're figuring it out as we go along and I figuring it out as we go along and I figuring it out as we go along and I mean I've got a you know a huge uh debt mean I've got a you know a huge uh debt mean I've got a you know a huge uh debt on this where this all really started on this where this all really started on this where this all really started for me because Sam Altman basically for me because Sam Altman basically for me because Sam Altman basically tried to recruit me to open Ai and it tried to recruit me to open Ai and it tried to recruit me to open Ai and it was at a point when I didn't know was at a point when I didn't know was at a point when I didn't know anything about what was really going on anything about what was really going on anything about what was really going on in machine learning uh and in fact it's in machine learning uh and in fact it's in machine learning uh and in fact it's funny how the first time you reached out funny how the first time you reached out funny how the first time you reached out to me it's like four years ago for your to me it's like four years ago for your to me it's like four years ago for your AI podcast for AI podcast for AI podcast for people yeah for people who uh uh people yeah for people who uh uh people yeah for people who uh uh listening to this should know that first listening to this should know that first listening to this should know that first of all obviously I'm I've been a huge of all obviously I'm I've been a huge of all obviously I'm I've been a huge fan of yours for the longest time but fan of yours for the longest time but fan of yours for the longest time but we've agreed to talk like yeah like four we've agreed to talk like yeah like four we've agreed to talk like yeah like four years ago back when this was called the years ago back when this was called the years ago back when this was called the artificial intelligence podcast we artificial intelligence podcast we artificial intelligence podcast we wanted to do a thing and we said you wanted to do a thing and we said you wanted to do a thing and we said you said yes and then and I said it's like I said yes and then and I said it's like I said yes and then and I said it's like I don't know anything about modern AI I don't know anything about modern AI I don't know anything about modern AI I said I could kind of take an angle on said I could kind of take an angle on said I could kind of take an angle on machine perception because you know I'm machine perception because you know I'm machine perception because you know I'm doing a lot of that with the sensors in doing a lot of that with the sensors in doing a lot of that with the sensors in the virtual reality but I we could the virtual reality but I we could the virtual reality but I we could probably find something to talk about probably find something to talk about probably find something to talk about but and then so I mean and that's where but and then so I mean and that's where but and then so I mean and that's where when did uh Sam talk to you about open when did uh Sam talk to you about open when did uh Sam talk to you about open AI around the same time no uh it was a AI around the same time no uh it was a AI around the same time no uh it was a little bit it was a bit after that so I little bit it was a bit after that so I little bit it was a bit after that so I had done the the most basic work I had had done the the most basic work I had had done the the most basic work I had kind of done the neural networks from kind of done the neural networks from kind of done the neural networks from scratch where I I had gone and written scratch where I I had gone and written scratch where I I had gone and written it all in C just to make sure I it all in C just to make sure I it all in C just to make sure I understood good back propagation at the understood good back propagation at the understood good back propagation at the at the lowest level and my my nuts and at the lowest level and my my nuts and at the lowest level and my my nuts and bolts approach but but after Sam bolts approach but but after Sam bolts approach but but after Sam approached me I you know it was

approached me I you know it was approached me I you know it was flattering to think that he thought that flattering to think that he thought that flattering to think that he thought that I I could be useful at open AI largely I I could be useful at open AI largely I I could be useful at open AI largely for kind of like systems optimization for kind of like systems optimization for kind of like systems optimization sorts of things um you know without sorts of things um you know without sorts of things um you know without being an expert but I asked uh you know being an expert but I asked uh you know being an expert but I asked uh you know Ilia sver to give me a reading list and Ilia sver to give me a reading list and Ilia sver to give me a reading list and he gave me a you know a binder full of he gave me a you know a binder full of he gave me a you know a binder full of all the papers that like okay these are all the papers that like okay these are all the papers that like okay these are the important things if you really read the important things if you really read the important things if you really read and understand all of these you'll know and understand all of these you'll know and understand all of these you'll know like 80% of what most of the you know like 80% of what most of the you know like 80% of what most of the you know the machine language researchers work on the machine language researchers work on the machine language researchers work on and you and I went through and I read and you and I went through and I read and you and I went through and I read all those papers multiple times and all those papers multiple times and all those papers multiple times and highlighted them and went through and highlighted them and went through and highlighted them and went through and kind of figured the things out there and kind of figured the things out there and kind of figured the things out there and then started branching out into my own then started branching out into my own then started branching out into my own sets of research on things and sets of research on things and sets of research on things and eventually started writing my own eventually started writing my own eventually started writing my own experiments and doing kind of figuring experiments and doing kind of figuring experiments and doing kind of figuring out you know finding out what I what I out you know finding out what I what I out you know finding out what I what I don't know what the limits of my don't know what the limits of my don't know what the limits of my knowledge are and starting to get some knowledge are and starting to get some knowledge are and starting to get some of my angles of attack on things the of my angles of attack on things the of my angles of attack on things the things that I think are a little bit things that I think are a little bit things that I think are a little bit different from uh from what people are different from uh from what people are different from uh from what people are doing and I've had a couple years now doing and I've had a couple years now doing and I've had a couple years now like two years since I I kind of left like two years since I I kind of left like two years since I I kind of left the full-time position at meta and now the full-time position at meta and now the full-time position at meta and now I've kind of pulled the trigger and said I've kind of pulled the trigger and said I've kind of pulled the trigger and said I'm going to get serious about it but I'm going to get serious about it but I'm going to get serious about it but some of my lessons all the way back to some of my lessons all the way back to some of my lessons all the way back to armadillo Aerospace about how I know I armadillo Aerospace about how I know I armadillo Aerospace about how I know I need to be more committed to this where need to be more committed to this where need to be more committed to this where there is that you it's both a freedom there is that you it's both a freedom there is that you it's both a freedom and a cost in some ways when you know and a cost in some ways when you know and a cost in some ways when you know that you're wealthy enough to say it's that you're wealthy enough to say it's that you're wealthy enough to say it's like this doesn't really mean anything I like this doesn't really mean anything I like this doesn't really mean anything I can I can spend you know I can spend a can I can spend you know I can spend a can I can spend you know I can spend a million dollars a year for the rest of million dollars a year for the rest of million dollars a year for the rest of my life and it doesn't mean anything my life and it doesn't mean anything my life and it doesn't mean anything it's fine uh but that is an opportunity

it's fine uh but that is an opportunity it's fine uh but that is an opportunity to just kind of meander uh and I could to just kind of meander uh and I could to just kind of meander uh and I could see that in myself when I'm doing some see that in myself when I'm doing some see that in myself when I'm doing some things it's like oh this is a kind of things it's like oh this is a kind of things it's like oh this is a kind of interesting Curious Thing let's look at interesting Curious Thing let's look at interesting Curious Thing let's look at this for a little while let's look at this for a little while let's look at this for a little while let's look at that it's not really bearing down on the that it's not really bearing down on the that it's not really bearing down on the problem so there's a few things that problem so there's a few things that problem so there's a few things that that I've done that are kind of tactics that I've done that are kind of tactics that I've done that are kind of tactics for myself to make me more effective for myself to make me more effective for myself to make me more effective like one thing I noticed I I was not like one thing I noticed I I was not like one thing I noticed I I was not doing well is U I had a Google Cloud doing well is U I had a Google Cloud doing well is U I had a Google Cloud account with uh to get gpus there and I account with uh to get gpus there and I account with uh to get gpus there and I was Finding I was very rarely doing that was Finding I was very rarely doing that was Finding I was very rarely doing that for no good psychological reasons where for no good psychological reasons where for no good psychological reasons where I'm like oh I can always think of I'm like oh I can always think of I'm like oh I can always think of something to do other than to spin up something to do other than to spin up something to do other than to spin up instances and run an experiment I can instances and run an experiment I can instances and run an experiment I can you know keep working on my local Titans you know keep working on my local Titans you know keep working on my local Titans or something uh but it was really stupid or something uh but it was really stupid or something uh but it was really stupid I mean it was not a lot of money I I mean it was not a lot of money I I mean it was not a lot of money I should have been running more should have been running more should have been running more experiments there so I thought to myself experiments there so I thought to myself experiments there so I thought to myself well I'm going to go buy a quarter well I'm going to go buy a quarter well I'm going to go buy a quarter million dollar dgx station I'm going to million dollar dgx station I'm going to million dollar dgx station I'm going to just like sit it right there and it's just like sit it right there and it's just like sit it right there and it's going to mock me if I'm not using it if going to mock me if I'm not using it if going to mock me if I'm not using it if the fans aren't running on that thing the fans aren't running on that thing the fans aren't running on that thing I'm not properly utilizing it and that's I'm not properly utilizing it and that's I'm not properly utilizing it and that's been helpful you know I've done a lot been helpful you know I've done a lot been helpful you know I've done a lot more experiments since then it's been more experiments since then it's been more experiments since then it's been it's been interesting where I thought it's been interesting where I thought it's been interesting where I thought I'd be doing all this low-level Envy I'd be doing all this low-level Envy I'd be doing all this low-level Envy link optimize stuff but 90% of what I do link optimize stuff but 90% of what I do link optimize stuff but 90% of what I do is just spin up four instances of an is just spin up four instances of an is just spin up four instances of an experiment with different experiment with different experiment with different hyperparameters on it oh inter you are hyperparameters on it oh inter you are hyperparameters on it oh inter you are you're doing like really sort of you're doing like really sort of you're doing like really sort of building up intuition by doing ml building up intuition by doing ml building up intuition by doing ml experiments of different experiments of different experiments of different kinds but so the next big thing though kinds but so the next big thing though kinds but so the next big thing though is I am you know I decided that I was is I am you know I decided that I was is I am you know I decided that I was going to take some take some investor going to take some take some investor going to take some take some investor money because I I have an overactive money because I I have an overactive money because I I have an overactive sense of responsibility about other

sense of responsibility about other sense of responsibility about other people's money um yeah and it's like I I people's money um yeah and it's like I I people's money um yeah and it's like I I don't want I mean a lot of my my push don't want I mean a lot of my my push don't want I mean a lot of my my push and my passionate int treaties for and my passionate int treaties for and my passionate int treaties for things at meta are it's like I don't things at meta are it's like I don't things at meta are it's like I don't want Zuck to have wasted his money want Zuck to have wasted his money want Zuck to have wasted his money investing in Oculus I want it to work investing in Oculus I want it to work investing in Oculus I want it to work out I want it to change the world I want out I want it to change the world I want out I want it to change the world I want it to be worth all of this time money it to be worth all of this time money it to be worth all of this time money and effort e going into it and I expect and effort e going into it and I expect and effort e going into it and I expect that it's going to be that like that that it's going to be that like that that it's going to be that like that with my uh with my company where it's a with my uh with my company where it's a with my uh with my company where it's a huge forcing function this investment I huge forcing function this investment I huge forcing function this investment I investors that are are going to expect investors that are are going to expect investors that are are going to expect something of me now we've all had the something of me now we've all had the something of me now we've all had the conversation that this is a low conversation that this is a low conversation that this is a low probability long-term bet it's not probability long-term bet it's not probability long-term bet it's not something that there's a million things something that there's a million things something that there's a million things I could do that I would have line of I could do that I would have line of I could do that I would have line of sight on the value proposition for this sight on the value proposition for this sight on the value proposition for this isn't that I think there are there are isn't that I think there are there are isn't that I think there are there are unknown unknowns in the way but it's one unknown unknowns in the way but it's one unknown unknowns in the way but it's one of these things that it's you know it's of these things that it's you know it's of these things that it's you know it's hyperbowl but it's potentially one of hyperbowl but it's potentially one of hyperbowl but it's potentially one of the most important things humans ever do the most important things humans ever do the most important things humans ever do and it's something that I think is and it's something that I think is and it's something that I think is within our lifetimes if not within a within our lifetimes if not within a within our lifetimes if not within a decade uh to happen so yeah this is just decade uh to happen so yeah this is just decade uh to happen so yeah this is just now happening like term sheet like the now happening like term sheet like the now happening like term sheet like the ink is barely virtual links barely dry ink is barely virtual links barely dry ink is barely virtual links barely dry on it's drying I mean as I mentioned to on it's drying I mean as I mentioned to on it's drying I mean as I mentioned to you offline like somebody I admired um you offline like somebody I admired um you offline like somebody I admired um somebody you know Andre kathi I think somebody you know Andre kathi I think somebody you know Andre kathi I think the two of you different trajectories in the two of you different trajectories in the two of you different trajectories in life but approach problems similarly in life but approach problems similarly in life but approach problems similarly in that he C stuff from scratch up all the that he C stuff from scratch up all the that he C stuff from scratch up all the time and I he's created a bunch of time and I he's created a bunch of time and I he's created a bunch of little things outside of um even outside little things outside of um even outside little things outside of um even outside the course at at Stanford that have been

the course at at Stanford that have been the course at at Stanford that have been tremendously useful to build up tremendously useful to build up tremendously useful to build up intuition about stuff but also to help intuition about stuff but also to help intuition about stuff but also to help people and uh they're all in the realm people and uh they're all in the realm people and uh they're all in the realm of of of AI um do do you see yourself potentially AI um do do you see yourself potentially AI um do do you see yourself potentially doing things like this or build you know doing things like this or build you know doing things like this or build you know not necessarily solving a gigantic not necessarily solving a gigantic not necessarily solving a gigantic problem but on the journey on the path problem but on the journey on the path problem but on the journey on the path to that building up intuitions uh and to that building up intuitions uh and to that building up intuitions uh and um uh sharing code or ideas or um uh sharing code or ideas or um uh sharing code or ideas or systems that um give inklings of AGI but systems that um give inklings of AGI but systems that um give inklings of AGI but also kind of are useful to people in also kind of are useful to people in also kind of are useful to people in some way so yeah first of all Andre is some way so yeah first of all Andre is some way so yeah first of all Andre is awesome I learned a lot when I was going awesome I learned a lot when I was going awesome I learned a lot when I was going through my larvel phase from his blog through my larvel phase from his blog through my larvel phase from his blog posts and his Stanford course and you posts and his Stanford course and you posts and his Stanford course and you know super valuable I got to meet him know super valuable I got to meet him know super valuable I got to meet him first a couple years ago when I was first a couple years ago when I was first a couple years ago when I was first kind of starting off on my first kind of starting off on my first kind of starting off on my Gentleman scientist bit Gentleman scientist bit Gentleman scientist bit and just uh just a couple months ago and just uh just a couple months ago and just uh just a couple months ago when he went out on his sabatical he when he went out on his sabatical he when he went out on his sabatical he stopped by in Dallas and we talked for a stopped by in Dallas and we talked for a stopped by in Dallas and we talked for a while and I I had a great time with him while and I I had a great time with him while and I I had a great time with him and then when I heard he actually left and then when I heard he actually left and then when I heard he actually left Tesla I did of course along with a Tesla I did of course along with a Tesla I did of course along with a hundred other people say hey if you ever hundred other people say hey if you ever hundred other people say hey if you ever want to work with me uh it would be an want to work with me uh it would be an want to work with me uh it would be an honor yeah so I'm he thinks that he's honor yeah so I'm he thinks that he's honor yeah so I'm he thinks that he's going to be doing this educational work going to be doing this educational work going to be doing this educational work but I think someone's gonna make him an but I think someone's gonna make him an but I think someone's gonna make him an offer he can't refuse I before he gets offer he can't refuse I before he gets offer he can't refuse I before he gets too far along on it oh his his current too far along on it oh his his current too far along on it oh his his current interest is educational like yeah uh um interest is educational like yeah uh um interest is educational like yeah uh um he's a special mind is there something he's a special mind is there something he's a special mind is there something you could speak to what makes him so you could speak to what makes him so you could speak to what makes him so special you understand he did he was special you understand he did he was special you understand he did he was very much a programmer's programmer that very much a programmer's programmer that very much a programmer's programmer that was doing machine learning work rather was doing machine learning work rather was doing machine learning work rather than it's a different feel than an

than it's a different feel than an than it's a different feel than an academic where you can see it in papers academic where you can see it in papers academic where you can see it in papers sometimes where somebody that's really a sometimes where somebody that's really a sometimes where somebody that's really a mathematician or a statistician at heart mathematician or a statistician at heart mathematician or a statistician at heart and they're they're doing something with and they're they're doing something with and they're they're doing something with machine learning but uh you know Andre machine learning but uh you know Andre machine learning but uh you know Andre is about getting something done and you is about getting something done and you is about getting something done and you could see it in like all of his earliest could see it in like all of his earliest could see it in like all of his earliest approaches to it's like okay here's how approaches to it's like okay here's how approaches to it's like okay here's how reinforcement learning works here's how reinforcement learning works here's how reinforcement learning works here's how recurrent neural networks work here's recurrent neural networks work here's recurrent neural networks work here's how Transformers work here's how I you how Transformers work here's how I you how Transformers work here's how I you know crypto works and I am and yeah it's know crypto works and I am and yeah it's know crypto works and I am and yeah it's just he's a hacker you know one of his just he's a hacker you know one of his just he's a hacker you know one of his old posts was like a hacker's guide to old posts was like a hacker's guide to old posts was like a hacker's guide to machine learning yeah and you know he machine learning yeah and you know he machine learning yeah and you know he deprecated that and said don't really deprecated that and said don't really deprecated that and said don't really pay attention to what's in here but it's pay attention to what's in here but it's pay attention to what's in here but it's that thought that uh that carries that thought that uh that carries that thought that uh that carries through in a lot of it where it is that through in a lot of it where it is that through in a lot of it where it is that back again to that hacker mentality and back again to that hacker mentality and back again to that hacker mentality and the hacker ethic with what he's doing the hacker ethic with what he's doing the hacker ethic with what he's doing and and sharing all of it and and sharing all of it and and sharing all of it yeah and a lot of his approach to a new yeah and a lot of his approach to a new yeah and a lot of his approach to a new thing like like you said larva stage is thing like like you said larva stage is thing like like you said larva stage is let me coat up the simplest possible let me coat up the simplest possible let me coat up the simplest possible thing to build up intuition about it thing to build up intuition about it thing to build up intuition about it yeah like I say I I sketch with structs yeah like I say I I sketch with structs yeah like I say I I sketch with structs and things when I'm just thinking about and things when I'm just thinking about and things when I'm just thinking about a problem I'm thinking in some degree of a problem I'm thinking in some degree of a problem I'm thinking in some degree of code you are also among many things a code you are also among many things a code you are also among many things a martial artist both Judo and Jiu-Jitsu martial artist both Judo and Jiu-Jitsu martial artist both Judo and Jiu-Jitsu how has this helped make you the person how has this helped make you the person how has this helped make you the person you are so I mean I was a competent Club you are so I mean I was a competent Club you are so I mean I was a competent Club player in uh Judo and grappling I mean I player in uh Judo and grappling I mean I player in uh Judo and grappling I mean I was you know by no means any kind of a was you know by no means any kind of a was you know by no means any kind of a superstar but it was I went through a superstar but it was I went through a superstar but it was I went through a few phases with it where I did some I few phases with it where I did some I few phases with it where I did some I when I was quite young a little bit more when I was quite young a little bit more when I was quite young a little bit more when I was 17 I am and then I got into when I was 17 I am and then I got into when I was 17 I am and then I got into it kind of seriously in my mid-30s and

it kind of seriously in my mid-30s and it kind of seriously in my mid-30s and you know I went pretty far with it and I you know I went pretty far with it and I you know I went pretty far with it and I was you know pretty good at some of the was you know pretty good at some of the was you know pretty good at some of the things that I was doing and I did things that I was doing and I did things that I was doing and I did appreciate it quite a bit where I mean appreciate it quite a bit where I mean appreciate it quite a bit where I mean on the one hand it's always if you're on the one hand it's always if you're on the one hand it's always if you're going to do exercise or something it's a going to do exercise or something it's a going to do exercise or something it's a more motivating form of exercise if more motivating form of exercise if more motivating form of exercise if someone is if someone is crushing you someone is if someone is crushing you someone is if someone is crushing you you like motivated to to do something you like motivated to to do something you like motivated to to do something about that to up your attributes and be about that to up your attributes and be about that to up your attributes and be better about getting out of attributes better about getting out of attributes better about getting out of attributes yes but there's also that sense that I yes but there's also that sense that I yes but there's also that sense that I you like I was not uh I was not a sports you like I was not uh I was not a sports you like I was not uh I was not a sports guy I did do wrestling in uh in junior guy I did do wrestling in uh in junior guy I did do wrestling in uh in junior high and I often wish that I think I high and I often wish that I think I high and I often wish that I think I would have I would have been good for me would have I would have been good for me would have I would have been good for me if IID carried that on into high school if IID carried that on into high school if IID carried that on into high school and had a little bit more of that I mean and had a little bit more of that I mean and had a little bit more of that I mean it's like I I you know Fil A little bit it's like I I you know Fil A little bit it's like I I you know Fil A little bit of wrestling Vibe with all going on of wrestling Vibe with all going on of wrestling Vibe with all going on about embracing the grind and like that about embracing the grind and like that about embracing the grind and like that push that I associate with the wrestling push that I associate with the wrestling push that I associate with the wrestling team that that I in hindsight I wish I team that that I in hindsight I wish I team that that I in hindsight I wish I had gone through that and pushed myself had gone through that and pushed myself had gone through that and pushed myself that way but even getting back into Judo that way but even getting back into Judo that way but even getting back into Judo and Jiu-Jitsu in in my mid-30s as and Jiu-Jitsu in in my mid-30s as and Jiu-Jitsu in in my mid-30s as usually the old man on the mat with that usually the old man on the mat with that usually the old man on the mat with that there was still the you know the sense there was still the you know the sense there was still the you know the sense that uh you know working out with the that uh you know working out with the that uh you know working out with the the group and having the the guys that the group and having the the guys that the group and having the the guys that you're beating beating each other up you're beating beating each other up you're beating beating each other up with it but you just feel good coming with it but you just feel good coming with it but you just feel good coming out of it and I can remember those out of it and I can remember those out of it and I can remember those driving home aching in various ways and driving home aching in various ways and driving home aching in various ways and just thinking it's like oh that was that just thinking it's like oh that was that just thinking it's like oh that was that was really great and uh you know it's was really great and uh you know it's was really great and uh you know it's mixing with a bunch of people that had mixing with a bunch of people that had mixing with a bunch of people that had nothing to do with any of the things nothing to do with any of the things nothing to do with any of the things that uh that I worked with you know that uh that I worked with you know that uh that I worked with you know every once in a while someone would be every once in a while someone would be every once in a while someone would be like oh you're the Doom guy and uh but

like oh you're the Doom guy and uh but like oh you're the Doom guy and uh but for the most part it was just different for the most part it was just different for the most part it was just different Slice of Life uh you know a good thing Slice of Life uh you know a good thing Slice of Life uh you know a good thing and I I made the call when I was 40 and I I made the call when I was 40 and I I made the call when I was 40 that's like maybe I'm getting a little that's like maybe I'm getting a little that's like maybe I'm getting a little old for this I I had separated a rib and old for this I I had separated a rib and old for this I I had separated a rib and tweaked a few things and I got out tweaked a few things and I got out tweaked a few things and I got out without any really bad injuries and was without any really bad injuries and was without any really bad injuries and was like have I dodged enough bullets should like have I dodged enough bullets should like have I dodged enough bullets should I you know should I hang it up I went I you know should I hang it up I went I you know should I hang it up I went back uh i' I've gone a couple times in back uh i' I've gone a couple times in back uh i' I've gone a couple times in the the last decade tring to get my kids the the last decade tring to get my kids the the last decade tring to get my kids into it a little bit I didn't really into it a little bit I didn't really into it a little bit I didn't really stick with any of them but it was fun to stick with any of them but it was fun to stick with any of them but it was fun to get back on the mats uh really hurts for get back on the mats uh really hurts for get back on the mats uh really hurts for a while when you haven't gone uh gone a while when you haven't gone uh gone a while when you haven't gone uh gone for a while but I still debate this for a while but I still debate this for a while but I still debate this pretty constantly my brother's only a pretty constantly my brother's only a pretty constantly my brother's only a year younger than me and he's going kind year younger than me and he's going kind year younger than me and he's going kind of hard in Jiu-Jitsu right now I you of hard in Jiu-Jitsu right now I you of hard in Jiu-Jitsu right now I you know he was just he won a few medals at know he was just he won a few medals at know he was just he won a few medals at the last tournament he was at competing the last tournament he was at competing the last tournament he was at competing to yeah and I was thinking yeah I guess to yeah and I was thinking yeah I guess to yeah and I was thinking yeah I guess we're in the executive Division if we're in the executive Division if we're in the executive Division if you're over 50 you know or over 45 or you're over 50 you know or over 45 or you're over 50 you know or over 45 or something and it's not out of the something and it's not out of the something and it's not out of the question that i' go back at some point question that i' go back at some point question that i' go back at some point and do some of this but again I'm just and do some of this but again I'm just and do some of this but again I'm just reorganizing my life around more Focus reorganizing my life around more Focus reorganizing my life around more Focus probably not going to happen I'm pushing probably not going to happen I'm pushing probably not going to happen I'm pushing my exercise around to give me longer my exercise around to give me longer my exercise around to give me longer uninterrupted intellectual Focus time uninterrupted intellectual Focus time uninterrupted intellectual Focus time pushing it to the beginning or the end pushing it to the beginning or the end pushing it to the beginning or the end of running and stuff like that walking of running and stuff like that walking of running and stuff like that walking yeah running and calisthenics and some yeah running and calisthenics and some yeah running and calisthenics and some things like that but still think about a things like that but still think about a things like that but still think about a problem but if you're going to a a judo problem but if you're going to a a judo problem but if you're going to a a judo club or something you're you've got to club or something you're you've got to club or something you're you've got to fixed it's going to be 7 o'clock or fixed it's going to be 7 o'clock or fixed it's going to be 7 o'clock or whatever 10 o'clock on Saturday uh whatever 10 o'clock on Saturday uh whatever 10 o'clock on Saturday uh although I I talked about this a little although I I talked about this a little although I I talked about this a little bit when I was on Rogan and shortly

bit when I was on Rogan and shortly bit when I was on Rogan and shortly after that Carlos Machado did reach out after that Carlos Machado did reach out after that Carlos Machado did reach out and I had trained with him for years uh and I had trained with him for years uh and I had trained with him for years uh back in the day and he was like Hey back in the day and he was like Hey back in the day and he was like Hey we've got kind of a small private club we've got kind of a small private club we've got kind of a small private club with a bunch of uh kind of executive with a bunch of uh kind of executive with a bunch of uh kind of executive type people and uh it gets it does tempt type people and uh it gets it does tempt type people and uh it gets it does tempt me yeah the I don't know if you know him me yeah the I don't know if you know him me yeah the I don't know if you know him but John donaher moved here to Austin uh but John donaher moved here to Austin uh but John donaher moved here to Austin uh with Gordon Ryan and a few other folks with Gordon Ryan and a few other folks with Gordon Ryan and a few other folks and he has a very interesting way very and he has a very interesting way very and he has a very interesting way very deep systematic way of thinking about deep systematic way of thinking about deep systematic way of thinking about Jiu-Jitsu that reveals the the chess of Jiu-Jitsu that reveals the the chess of Jiu-Jitsu that reveals the the chess of it the the the the like the the science it the the the the like the the science it the the the the like the the science of it yeah and I do think about that of it yeah and I do think about that of it yeah and I do think about that more as kind of an older person more as kind of an older person more as kind of an older person considering the martial arts where I can considering the martial arts where I can considering the martial arts where I can remember the the very earliest days remember the the very earliest days remember the the very earliest days getting back into Judo and I'm like getting back into Judo and I'm like getting back into Judo and I'm like teach me submissions right now you know teach me submissions right now you know teach me submissions right now you know it's like learn the armbar learn the it's like learn the armbar learn the it's like learn the armbar learn the choke I but as you get older you start choke I but as you get older you start choke I but as you get older you start thinking more about it's like okay I thinking more about it's like okay I thinking more about it's like okay I really do want to like learn the entire really do want to like learn the entire really do want to like learn the entire Cannon of Judo it's like or all the Cannon of Judo it's like or all the Cannon of Judo it's like or all the different things there and like all the different things there and like all the different things there and like all the different approaches for it not just the different approaches for it not just the different approaches for it not just the you know if you want to compete there's you know if you want to compete there's you know if you want to compete there's just a handful of things you learn just a handful of things you learn just a handful of things you learn really really well but sometimes there's really really well but sometimes there's really really well but sometimes there's interest in learning a little bit more interest in learning a little bit more interest in learning a little bit more of the scope there and figuring some of the scope there and figuring some of the scope there and figuring some things out from you know at one point I things out from you know at one point I things out from you know at one point I had wasn't exactly a spreadsheet but I had wasn't exactly a spreadsheet but I had wasn't exactly a spreadsheet but I did have a a you know a big long text did have a a you know a big long text did have a a you know a big long text file with like here's the things that I file with like here's the things that I file with like here's the things that I learned and here are like ways you chain learned and here are like ways you chain learned and here are like ways you chain this together and while when I went back this together and while when I went back this together and while when I went back a few years ago it was good to see that a few years ago it was good to see that a few years ago it was good to see that I I whipped myself back into reasonable I I whipped myself back into reasonable I I whipped myself back into reasonable shape about doing the basic grappling shape about doing the basic grappling shape about doing the basic grappling but I know there was a ton of the but I know there was a ton of the but I know there was a ton of the subtleties that were just that were gone

subtleties that were just that were gone subtleties that were just that were gone but could probably be brought back but could probably be brought back but could probably be brought back reasonably quickly and there's also the reasonably quickly and there's also the reasonably quickly and there's also the benefit I mean you're exceptionally benefit I mean you're exceptionally benefit I mean you're exceptionally successful now successful now successful now um you're um you're um you're brilliant and the problem the old brilliant and the problem the old brilliant and the problem the old problem of the ego yeah is uh I still problem of the ego yeah is uh I still problem of the ego yeah is uh I still pushed kind of harder than I should I pushed kind of harder than I should I pushed kind of harder than I should I mean that was I was one of those people mean that was I was one of those people mean that was I was one of those people that I yeah I'm I'm on the smaller side that I yeah I'm I'm on the smaller side that I yeah I'm I'm on the smaller side for uh for a lot of the people competing for uh for a lot of the people competing for uh for a lot of the people competing and I would you know I'd go with all the and I would you know I'd go with all the and I would you know I'd go with all the big guys and I'd go hard and I'd push big guys and I'd go hard and I'd push big guys and I'd go hard and I'd push myself a lot and that would be one of myself a lot and that would be one of myself a lot and that would be one of those where yeah I would I you know I those where yeah I would I you know I those where yeah I would I you know I I'd be dangerous to anyone for the first I'd be dangerous to anyone for the first I'd be dangerous to anyone for the first five minutes but then sometimes after five minutes but then sometimes after five minutes but then sometimes after that already dead and I knew it was that already dead and I knew it was that already dead and I knew it was terrible for me because it it made the terrible for me because it it made the terrible for me because it it made the you know it meant I got less training you know it meant I got less training you know it meant I got less training time with all of that when you go and time with all of that when you go and time with all of that when you go and you just gas out you know relatively you just gas out you know relatively you just gas out you know relatively quickly there and I like to think that I quickly there and I like to think that I quickly there and I like to think that I would be better about that where after I would be better about that where after I would be better about that where after I gave up Judo I started doing the half gave up Judo I started doing the half gave up Judo I started doing the half marathons and tough Butters and things marathons and tough Butters and things marathons and tough Butters and things like that and so when I did go back to like that and so when I did go back to like that and so when I did go back to the the local Judo Kai Club I thought the the local Judo Kai Club I thought the the local Judo Kai Club I thought it's like oh I should have better cardio it's like oh I should have better cardio it's like oh I should have better cardio for this because I'm I'm a runner now for this because I'm I'm a runner now for this because I'm I'm a runner now and I do all of this and didn't work out and I do all of this and didn't work out and I do all of this and didn't work out that way it was the same old thing where that way it was the same old thing where that way it was the same old thing where just push really hard strain really hard just push really hard strain really hard just push really hard strain really hard and and of course when I worked with and and of course when I worked with and and of course when I worked with good guys like Carlos it's like he just good guys like Carlos it's like he just good guys like Carlos it's like he just the whole flow like water thing is real the whole flow like water thing is real the whole flow like water thing is real and he's just like that's true with Judo and he's just like that's true with Judo and he's just like that's true with Judo too some of the best people like I've too some of the best people like I've too some of the best people like I've I've uh trained with Olympic gold I've uh trained with Olympic gold I've uh trained with Olympic gold medalists and for some reason with them medalists and for some reason with them medalists and for some reason with them everything is easier everything is you everything is easier everything is you everything is easier everything is you actually start to feel the science of it

actually start to feel the science of it actually start to feel the science of it the music of it the dance of it it's the music of it the dance of it it's the music of it the dance of it it's everything is everything is everything is effortless um you understand that effortless um you understand that effortless um you understand that there's an art to it it's not just an there's an art to it it's not just an there's an art to it it's not just an exercise it was interesting where I did exercise it was interesting where I did exercise it was interesting where I did go to the kodon in Japan kind of the go to the kodon in Japan kind of the go to the kodon in Japan kind of the birthplace of Judo and everything and I birthplace of Judo and everything and I birthplace of Judo and everything and I remember I rolled with one old guy I remember I rolled with one old guy I remember I rolled with one old guy I didn't you know didn't start standing didn't you know didn't start standing didn't you know didn't start standing just started on groundwork naaza and it just started on groundwork naaza and it just started on groundwork naaza and it was striking how different it was from was striking how different it was from was striking how different it was from Carlos he was still he was better than Carlos he was still he was better than Carlos he was still he was better than me and he got my arm and I you know I me and he got my arm and I you know I me and he got my arm and I you know I had to tap there but it was a completely had to tap there but it was a completely had to tap there but it was a completely different style where I just felt like I different style where I just felt like I different style where I just felt like I could do nothing he was just enveloping could do nothing he was just enveloping could do nothing he was just enveloping me and just like slowly ground it down me and just like slowly ground it down me and just like slowly ground it down my arm and bent it while with Carlos you my arm and bent it while with Carlos you my arm and bent it while with Carlos you know he's just loose and free and you know he's just loose and free and you know he's just loose and free and you always thought like oh you're just going always thought like oh you're just going always thought like oh you're just going to go grab something but you never had to go grab something but you never had to go grab something but you never had any chance to do it but it was a very any chance to do it but it was a very any chance to do it but it was a very different feeling that's a good summary different feeling that's a good summary different feeling that's a good summary of the difference between Jiu-Jitsu and of the difference between Jiu-Jitsu and of the difference between Jiu-Jitsu and Judo in Jiu-Jitsu there's it is a dance Judo in Jiu-Jitsu there's it is a dance Judo in Jiu-Jitsu there's it is a dance and you feel like there's a freedom and and you feel like there's a freedom and and you feel like there's a freedom and actually um anybody I like Gordon Ryan actually um anybody I like Gordon Ryan actually um anybody I like Gordon Ryan one of the best the best Grappler in the one of the best the best Grappler in the one of the best the best Grappler in the world nogi Grappler in the world uh world nogi Grappler in the world uh world nogi Grappler in the world uh there's a feeling like you can do there's a feeling like you can do there's a feeling like you can do anything uh but when you actually try to anything uh but when you actually try to anything uh but when you actually try to do something you can't just magically do something you can't just magically do something you can't just magically doesn't work but with the best Judo doesn't work but with the best Judo doesn't work but with the best Judo players in the world yeah it does feel players in the world yeah it does feel players in the world yeah it does feel like there's a blanket that weighs 1,000 like there's a blanket that weighs 1,000 like there's a blanket that weighs 1,000 PBS on top of you and there's not a PBS on top of you and there's not a PBS on top of you and there's not a feeling like you can do anything you're feeling like you can do anything you're feeling like you can do anything you're just you're trapped and that's a that's just you're trapped and that's a that's just you're trapped and that's a that's a style that's a difference in the style a style that's a difference in the style a style that's a difference in the style of martial arts but it's also uh once of martial arts but it's also uh once of martial arts but it's also uh once you start to study you understand it all you start to study you understand it all you start to study you understand it all has to do with human movement and the

has to do with human movement and the has to do with human movement and the physics of it and the leverage and all physics of it and the leverage and all physics of it and the leverage and all that kind of stuff and that's like that kind of stuff and that's like that kind of stuff and that's like that's super fascinating at the end of that's super fascinating at the end of that's super fascinating at the end of the day today for me the biggest benefit the day today for me the biggest benefit the day today for me the biggest benefit is in The Humbling aspect when another is in The Humbling aspect when another is in The Humbling aspect when another human human human being um kind of tells you that you know being um kind of tells you that you know being um kind of tells you that you know there's a hierarchy or or there's a um there's a hierarchy or or there's a um there's a hierarchy or or there's a um you're you're not that special yeah and you're you're not that special yeah and you're you're not that special yeah and in the most extreme case when you tap to in the most extreme case when you tap to in the most extreme case when you tap to a choke you are basically living because a choke you are basically living because a choke you are basically living because somebody let you live and that's that is somebody let you live and that's that is somebody let you live and that's that is one of those if you think about it that one of those if you think about it that one of those if you think about it that is a closer brush with mortality than is a closer brush with mortality than is a closer brush with mortality than than most people consider than most people consider than most people consider and that kind of humbling Act is good to and that kind of humbling Act is good to and that kind of humbling Act is good to take to your work then where it's harder take to your work then where it's harder take to your work then where it's harder to get humbled you know yeah because to get humbled you know yeah because to get humbled you know yeah because nobody's nobody that does any martial nobody's nobody that does any martial nobody's nobody that does any martial art is coming out thinking I'm the best art is coming out thinking I'm the best art is coming out thinking I'm the best in the world at anything because in the world at anything because in the world at anything because everybody everybody everybody loses let me ask you for advice what loses let me ask you for advice what loses let me ask you for advice what advice would you give to young people advice would you give to young people advice would you give to young people today uh about life about career how how today uh about life about career how how today uh about life about career how how they can have a job how they can have an they can have a job how they can have an they can have a job how they can have an impact how they can have a life they can impact how they can have a life they can impact how they can have a life they can be proud of so it was kind of fun I got be proud of so it was kind of fun I got be proud of so it was kind of fun I got invited to give the commencement speech invited to give the commencement speech invited to give the commencement speech back at the I went to a college for two back at the I went to a college for two back at the I went to a college for two semesters and and dropped out and went semesters and and dropped out and went semesters and and dropped out and went on to do my tech stuff uh but they still on to do my tech stuff uh but they still on to do my tech stuff uh but they still wanted me to come back and give a wanted me to come back and give a wanted me to come back and give a commencement speech and I I've got that commencement speech and I I've got that commencement speech and I I've got that pinned on my Twitter account and I still pinned on my Twitter account and I still pinned on my Twitter account and I still feel good about everything that I said feel good about everything that I said feel good about everything that I said there and you know my my biggest point there and you know my my biggest point there and you know my my biggest point was that the path for me might not be

was that the path for me might not be was that the path for me might not be the path for everyone and in fact the the path for everyone and in fact the the path for everyone and in fact the advice advice advice the path that I took and even the advice the path that I took and even the advice the path that I took and even the advice that I would give based on my experience that I would give based on my experience that I would give based on my experience and learnings probably isn't the best and learnings probably isn't the best and learnings probably isn't the best advice for everyone because what I did advice for everyone because what I did advice for everyone because what I did was all about this knowledge in depth it was all about this knowledge in depth it was all about this knowledge in depth it was about not just having this surface was about not just having this surface was about not just having this surface level ability to make things do what I level ability to make things do what I level ability to make things do what I want but to really understand them want but to really understand them want but to really understand them through and through to let me do the through and through to let me do the through and through to let me do the systems engineering work and sometimes systems engineering work and sometimes systems engineering work and sometimes find these inefficiencies that can be find these inefficiencies that can be find these inefficiencies that can be bypassed and and that the whole world bypassed and and that the whole world bypassed and and that the whole world doesn't need that you know most doesn't need that you know most doesn't need that you know most programmers don't need or Engineers of programmers don't need or Engineers of programmers don't need or Engineers of any kind don't necessarily need to do any kind don't necessarily need to do any kind don't necessarily need to do that they need to do a little job that's that they need to do a little job that's that they need to do a little job that's been parceled out to them uh be reliable been parceled out to them uh be reliable been parceled out to them uh be reliable let people depend on you do quality work let people depend on you do quality work let people depend on you do quality work with all of that but people that do have with all of that but people that do have with all of that but people that do have an inclination for wanting to to know an inclination for wanting to to know an inclination for wanting to to know know things deeper and learn things know things deeper and learn things know things deeper and learn things deeper I you know the there are just deeper I you know the there are just deeper I you know the there are just layers and layers of things out there layers and layers of things out there layers and layers of things out there and it it's amazing it's if you're the and it it's amazing it's if you're the and it it's amazing it's if you're the right person that is excited about that right person that is excited about that right person that is excited about that I the world's never been like this I the world's never been like this I the world's never been like this before it's better than ever I mean before it's better than ever I mean before it's better than ever I mean everything that was wonderful for me is everything that was wonderful for me is everything that was wonderful for me is still there and there's whole new worlds still there and there's whole new worlds still there and there's whole new worlds to explore on the different things that to explore on the different things that to explore on the different things that you can do and that um you know it's you can do and that um you know it's you can do and that um you know it's hard work embrace the grind with it and hard work embrace the grind with it and hard work embrace the grind with it and understand as much as you can and then understand as much as you can and then understand as much as you can and then be be prepared for opportunities to be be prepared for opportunities to be be prepared for opportunities to present themselves where you can't just present themselves where you can't just present themselves where you can't just say this is my goal in life and just say this is my goal in life and just say this is my goal in life and just push at that I mean you might be able to

push at that I mean you might be able to push at that I mean you might be able to do that but you're going going to make do that but you're going going to make do that but you're going going to make more total progress if you say I'm more total progress if you say I'm more total progress if you say I'm preparing myself with this broad set of preparing myself with this broad set of preparing myself with this broad set of tools and then I'm being aware of all tools and then I'm being aware of all tools and then I'm being aware of all the way things are changing as I move the way things are changing as I move the way things are changing as I move through the world and as the whole world through the world and as the whole world through the world and as the whole world changes around me and then looking for changes around me and then looking for changes around me and then looking for opportunities to deploy the tools that opportunities to deploy the tools that opportunities to deploy the tools that you've built and there's going to be you've built and there's going to be you've built and there's going to be more and more of those types of things more and more of those types of things more and more of those types of things there where an awareness of what's there where an awareness of what's there where an awareness of what's Happening where the inefficiencies are Happening where the inefficiencies are Happening where the inefficiencies are what things can be done what's possible what things can be done what's possible what things can be done what's possible versus what's current practice and then versus what's current practice and then versus what's current practice and then finding those areas where you can go and finding those areas where you can go and finding those areas where you can go and make an adjustment and make something make an adjustment and make something make an adjustment and make something that may affect millions or billions of that may affect millions or billions of that may affect millions or billions of people in the world make it better when people in the world make it better when people in the world make it better when maybe from your own example how how are maybe from your own example how how are maybe from your own example how how are you able to recognize this about you able to recognize this about you able to recognize this about yourself that you saw the layers in in a yourself that you saw the layers in in a yourself that you saw the layers in in a particular thing and you were drawn to particular thing and you were drawn to particular thing and you were drawn to discovering deeper and deeper truths discovering deeper and deeper truths discovering deeper and deeper truths about it is that something that was about it is that something that was about it is that something that was obvious to you that you couldn't help or obvious to you that you couldn't help or obvious to you that you couldn't help or is there some actions you had to take to is there some actions you had to take to is there some actions you had to take to actually allow yourself to dig deep so actually allow yourself to dig deep so actually allow yourself to dig deep so in the earliest days of personal in the earliest days of personal in the earliest days of personal computers I remember the the reference computers I remember the the reference computers I remember the the reference manuals and the very early ones even had manuals and the very early ones even had manuals and the very early ones even had schematics of uh computers in the schematics of uh computers in the schematics of uh computers in the background in the in the back of the background in the in the back of the background in the in the back of the books as well as firmware listings and books as well as firmware listings and books as well as firmware listings and things and I could look at that and at things and I could look at that and at things and I could look at that and at that time when I was a younger teenager that time when I was a younger teenager that time when I was a younger teenager I didn't understand a lot of that stuff I didn't understand a lot of that stuff I didn't understand a lot of that stuff how the the different things worked uh I how the the different things worked uh I how the the different things worked uh I was pulling out the information that I was pulling out the information that I was pulling out the information that I could get but I always wanted to know could get but I always wanted to know could get but I always wanted to know all of that there was like kind of all of that there was like kind of all of that there was like kind of magical information sitting down there magical information sitting down there magical information sitting down there it's like the Elder Lord that some

it's like the Elder Lord that some it's like the Elder Lord that some graybeard wizard I you know is the graybeard wizard I you know is the graybeard wizard I you know is the keeper of and so I always felt that pull keeper of and so I always felt that pull keeper of and so I always felt that pull for wanting to know more wanting to for wanting to know more wanting to for wanting to know more wanting to explore the uh the mysterious areas explore the uh the mysterious areas explore the uh the mysterious areas there and you know and that followed there and you know and that followed there and you know and that followed right in through all the things that got right in through all the things that got right in through all the things that got the value exploring the video cards the value exploring the video cards the value exploring the video cards leading to the um you know the scrolling leading to the um you know the scrolling leading to the um you know the scrolling advantages you know exploring some of advantages you know exploring some of advantages you know exploring some of the academic papers and things learning the academic papers and things learning the academic papers and things learning about bsp trees and the different things about bsp trees and the different things about bsp trees and the different things that that I could do um you with those that that I could do um you with those that that I could do um you with those systems and just the the huge larel systems and just the the huge larel systems and just the the huge larel phases going through Aerospace just phases going through Aerospace just phases going through Aerospace just reading bookshelves full of books I mean reading bookshelves full of books I mean reading bookshelves full of books I mean again that point where I have enough again that point where I have enough again that point where I have enough money I can buy all the books I want it money I can buy all the books I want it money I can buy all the books I want it was it was so valuable there where I was was it was so valuable there where I was was it was so valuable there where I was terrible with my money when I was a kid terrible with my money when I was a kid terrible with my money when I was a kid my mom thought I would always be broke my mom thought I would always be broke my mom thought I would always be broke because you know I'd buy my comic books because you know I'd buy my comic books because you know I'd buy my comic books and just be out of money but it was like and just be out of money but it was like and just be out of money but it was like all the pizza I want all the diet coke I all the pizza I want all the diet coke I all the pizza I want all the diet coke I want video games and then books and it want video games and then books and it want video games and then books and it didn't take that much as soon as I was didn't take that much as soon as I was didn't take that much as soon as I was making 27k a year I I felt rich and I making 27k a year I I felt rich and I making 27k a year I I felt rich and I was just getting all the things that was just getting all the things that was just getting all the things that that I wanted but that sense of you know that I wanted but that sense of you know that I wanted but that sense of you know that books have always been magical to that books have always been magical to that books have always been magical to me and that was one of the things that me and that was one of the things that me and that was one of the things that really made me smile is I Andre had said really made me smile is I Andre had said really made me smile is I Andre had said he found you know when he came over to he found you know when he came over to he found you know when he came over to my house he said he found my library my house he said he found my library my house he said he found my library inspiring just I had and it was great to inspiring just I had and it was great to inspiring just I had and it was great to see you know I used still look at him see you know I used still look at him see you know I used still look at him he's kind of a younger guy I sometimes he's kind of a younger guy I sometimes he's kind of a younger guy I sometimes wonder if younger people these days have wonder if younger people these days have wonder if younger people these days have the same relationship with books that I the same relationship with books that I the same relationship with books that I do where they were such a Cornerstone do where they were such a Cornerstone do where they were such a Cornerstone for me in so many ways but that sense for me in so many ways but that sense for me in so many ways but that sense that yeah I always wanted to know it all that yeah I always wanted to know it all that yeah I always wanted to know it all I know I can't and that was like one of

I know I can't and that was like one of I know I can't and that was like one of the last things I said you know you the last things I said you know you the last things I said you know you can't know everything but you should can't know everything but you should can't know everything but you should convince yourself that you can know convince yourself that you can know convince yourself that you can know anything you know any one particular anything you know any one particular anything you know any one particular thing it was created and discovered by thing it was created and discovered by thing it was created and discovered by humans you can learn it you can find out humans you can learn it you can find out humans you can learn it you can find out what you need on there and you can learn what you need on there and you can learn what you need on there and you can learn it deeply yeah you can drive a nail down it deeply yeah you can drive a nail down it deeply yeah you can drive a nail down through whatever layer cake problem through whatever layer cake problem through whatever layer cake problem space you've got and learn a space you've got and learn a space you've got and learn a cross-section there and not only can you cross-section there and not only can you cross-section there and not only can you have an impact doing that you can dis have an impact doing that you can dis have an impact doing that you can dis you can attain happiness doing that you can attain happiness doing that you can attain happiness doing that there's something so fulfilling about there's something so fulfilling about there's something so fulfilling about becoming a Craftsman of a thing yeah and becoming a Craftsman of a thing yeah and becoming a Craftsman of a thing yeah and I don't want to tell people that look I don't want to tell people that look I don't want to tell people that look this is a a good career move just you this is a a good career move just you this is a a good career move just you know grit your teeth and you know and know grit your teeth and you know and know grit your teeth and you know and bear it I you know you want people you bear it I you know you want people you bear it I you know you want people you want to and I do think it is possible want to and I do think it is possible want to and I do think it is possible sometimes to find the joy in something sometimes to find the joy in something sometimes to find the joy in something like it might not immediately appeal to like it might not immediately appeal to like it might not immediately appeal to you but I had told people early on like you but I had told people early on like you but I had told people early on like in in software times that I you know it in in software times that I you know it in in software times that I you know it a lot of game developers are in it just a lot of game developers are in it just a lot of game developers are in it just because they are so passionate about because they are so passionate about because they are so passionate about games but I was always really more games but I was always really more games but I was always really more flexible in what appealed to me where I flexible in what appealed to me where I flexible in what appealed to me where I said I think I could be quite engaged said I think I could be quite engaged said I think I could be quite engaged doing operating system work or even doing operating system work or even doing operating system work or even database work I I would find the database work I I would find the database work I I would find the interest in that I because I think most interest in that I because I think most interest in that I because I think most things that are significant in the world things that are significant in the world things that are significant in the world have a lot of layers and complexity to have a lot of layers and complexity to have a lot of layers and complexity to them and a lot of opportunities hidden them and a lot of opportunities hidden them and a lot of opportunities hidden within them uh so that would probably be within them uh so that would probably be within them uh so that would probably be the most important thing to encourage to the most important thing to encourage to the most important thing to encourage to people is that um you can it's like people is that um you can it's like people is that um you can it's like weaponized curiosity you can deploy your weaponized curiosity you can deploy your weaponized curiosity you can deploy your curiosity to find I to kind of like make curiosity to find I to kind of like make curiosity to find I to kind of like make things useful and valuable to you even

things useful and valuable to you even things useful and valuable to you even if they don't immediately appear that if they don't immediately appear that if they don't immediately appear that way deploy your curiosity yeah that's way deploy your curiosity yeah that's way deploy your curiosity yeah that's very true uh We've mentioned this debate very true uh We've mentioned this debate very true uh We've mentioned this debate Point whether mortality or fear of Point whether mortality or fear of Point whether mortality or fear of mortality is fundamental to creating an mortality is fundamental to creating an mortality is fundamental to creating an AGI but let's talk about whether is AGI but let's talk about whether is AGI but let's talk about whether is fundamental to human beings do you think fundamental to human beings do you think fundamental to human beings do you think about your IM mortality I really don't about your IM mortality I really don't about your IM mortality I really don't and and you probably always have to like and and you probably always have to like and and you probably always have to like take with a grain of salt anything take with a grain of salt anything take with a grain of salt anything somebody says about fundamental things somebody says about fundamental things somebody says about fundamental things like that um but I don't think about like that um but I don't think about like that um but I don't think about really aging impending death Legacy with really aging impending death Legacy with really aging impending death Legacy with uh with my children things like that and uh with my children things like that and uh with my children things like that and clearly it seems most of the world does clearly it seems most of the world does clearly it seems most of the world does a lot a lot more than I do yeah I so I a lot a lot more than I do yeah I so I a lot a lot more than I do yeah I so I mean I think I'm an outlier in that mean I think I'm an outlier in that mean I think I'm an outlier in that where it's yeah it doesn't wind up being where it's yeah it doesn't wind up being where it's yeah it doesn't wind up being a real part of my uh my thinking and a real part of my uh my thinking and a real part of my uh my thinking and motivation about things so daily motivation about things so daily motivation about things so daily existence is about sort of the people existence is about sort of the people existence is about sort of the people you love and the problems before you I'm you love and the problems before you I'm you love and the problems before you I'm very much focused on what I'm working on very much focused on what I'm working on very much focused on what I'm working on right now I I I do take that back right now I I I do take that back right now I I I do take that back there's one aspect where the the kind of there's one aspect where the the kind of there's one aspect where the the kind of finiteness of the life does impact me finiteness of the life does impact me finiteness of the life does impact me and that is about thinking about the and that is about thinking about the and that is about thinking about the scope of the problems that I'm working scope of the problems that I'm working scope of the problems that I'm working on when I you know when I decided to on when I you know when I decided to on when I you know when I decided to work on when I was like nuclear fion or work on when I was like nuclear fion or work on when I was like nuclear fion or AGI these are Big Ticket things that I AGI these are Big Ticket things that I AGI these are Big Ticket things that I that are impact large fractions of the that are impact large fractions of the that are impact large fractions of the world and I was think thinking to myself world and I was think thinking to myself world and I was think thinking to myself at some level that okay I mean I've I

at some level that okay I mean I've I at some level that okay I mean I've I may have a couple more swings at bat may have a couple more swings at bat may have a couple more swings at bat with me at full capability but yes my my with me at full capability but yes my my with me at full capability but yes my my mental abilities will Decay with age you mental abilities will Decay with age you mental abilities will Decay with age you know mostly inevitably I I don't think know mostly inevitably I I don't think know mostly inevitably I I don't think it's a z% chance that we will address it's a z% chance that we will address it's a z% chance that we will address some of that before it becomes a problem some of that before it becomes a problem some of that before it becomes a problem for me I think exciting medical stuff in for me I think exciting medical stuff in for me I think exciting medical stuff in the next couple decades but I do have the next couple decades but I do have the next couple decades but I do have this kind of vague plan that when I'm this kind of vague plan that when I'm this kind of vague plan that when I'm not at the top of my game and I don't not at the top of my game and I don't not at the top of my game and I don't feel that I'm you know in a position to feel that I'm you know in a position to feel that I'm you know in a position to put a dent in the world some way that put a dent in the world some way that put a dent in the world some way that I'll probably wind up doing some kind of I'll probably wind up doing some kind of I'll probably wind up doing some kind of recreational retro programming or I'll recreational retro programming or I'll recreational retro programming or I'll you know I'll work on some you know you know I'll work on some you know you know I'll work on some you know something that I would not devote my something that I would not devote my something that I would not devote my life to now but I can wi away my time as life to now but I can wi away my time as life to now but I can wi away my time as the old man gardening in the code the old man gardening in the code the old man gardening in the code worlds and then to step back even uh worlds and then to step back even uh worlds and then to step back even uh bigger let me ask you about why we're bigger let me ask you about why we're bigger let me ask you about why we're here we human beings what's the meaning here we human beings what's the meaning here we human beings what's the meaning of it all what's the meaning of life of it all what's the meaning of life of it all what's the meaning of life John carac so very similar with that John carac so very similar with that John carac so very similar with that last question I know a lot of people last question I know a lot of people last question I know a lot of people fret about this question a lot and I fret about this question a lot and I fret about this question a lot and I just really don't I really don't give a just really don't I really don't give a just really don't I really don't give a damn we are I you know we are biological damn we are I you know we are biological damn we are I you know we are biological creatures that happen stance of creatures that happen stance of creatures that happen stance of evolution I you know we have innate evolution I you know we have innate evolution I you know we have innate drives that Evolution crafted for drives that Evolution crafted for drives that Evolution crafted for survival and passing on of genetic codes survival and passing on of genetic codes survival and passing on of genetic codes I I don't I don't find a lot of value in I I don't I don't find a lot of value in I I don't I don't find a lot of value in trying to go much deeper than that I I trying to go much deeper than that I I trying to go much deeper than that I I have my motivations some of which are have my motivations some of which are have my motivations some of which are you know some of which are probably you know some of which are probably you know some of which are probably genetically coded and many of which are genetically coded and many of which are genetically coded and many of which are contingent on my upbringing and the path contingent on my upbringing and the path contingent on my upbringing and the path that I've had through my life I I don't

that I've had through my life I I don't that I've had through my life I I don't run into like states of depression or run into like states of depression or run into like states of depression or enway or uh anything that uh that winds enway or uh anything that uh that winds enway or uh anything that uh that winds up being a challenge and forcing a up being a challenge and forcing a up being a challenge and forcing a degree of soul searching with things degree of soul searching with things degree of soul searching with things like that I seem to be okay I you know like that I seem to be okay I you know like that I seem to be okay I you know kind of without that um as a brilliant kind of without that um as a brilliant kind of without that um as a brilliant ant in the ant colony without looking up ant in the ant colony without looking up ant in the ant colony without looking up to the sky wondering why the hell am I to the sky wondering why the hell am I to the sky wondering why the hell am I here again yeah so the the why of it the here again yeah so the the why of it the here again yeah so the the why of it the incredible mystery of the fact that we incredible mystery of the fact that we incredible mystery of the fact that we started first of all the origin of life started first of all the origin of life started first of all the origin of life on Earth and from that from single cell on Earth and from that from single cell on Earth and from that from single cell organisms the entirety of The organisms the entirety of The organisms the entirety of The evolutionary process took us somehow to evolutionary process took us somehow to evolutionary process took us somehow to this incredibly intelligent thing that this incredibly intelligent thing that this incredibly intelligent thing that is able to build Wolfenstein 3D and doom is able to build Wolfenstein 3D and doom is able to build Wolfenstein 3D and doom and Quake and uh take a crack at the and Quake and uh take a crack at the and Quake and uh take a crack at the problem of AGI and create things that problem of AGI and create things that problem of AGI and create things that eventually supersede human beings that eventually supersede human beings that eventually supersede human beings that doesn't the why doesn't the why doesn't the why it is um it's been my experience that it is um it's been my experience that it is um it's been my experience that people that focus on uh that don't focus people that focus on uh that don't focus people that focus on uh that don't focus on the here and now right in front of on the here and now right in front of on the here and now right in front of them tend to be less effective I mean them tend to be less effective I mean them tend to be less effective I mean it's not 100% you know Vision matters to it's not 100% you know Vision matters to it's not 100% you know Vision matters to some people but I it doesn't seem to be some people but I it doesn't seem to be some people but I it doesn't seem to be a necessary motivator for me and I think a necessary motivator for me and I think a necessary motivator for me and I think that the process of getting there is that the process of getting there is that the process of getting there is usually done it's like the magic of usually done it's like the magic of usually done it's like the magic of gradient descent people just don't gradient descent people just don't gradient descent people just don't believe that just looking locally gets believe that just looking locally gets believe that just looking locally gets you to all of these spectacular things you to all of these spectacular things you to all of these spectacular things that's been you know the Decades of that's been you know the Decades of that's been you know the Decades of looking at I really some of the smartest

looking at I really some of the smartest looking at I really some of the smartest people in the world that would just push people in the world that would just push people in the world that would just push back forever against this idea that it's back forever against this idea that it's back forever against this idea that it's not this Grand sophisticated vision of not this Grand sophisticated vision of not this Grand sophisticated vision of everything but little tiny steps local everything but little tiny steps local everything but little tiny steps local information winds up leading to all the information winds up leading to all the information winds up leading to all the best answers so the meaning of life is best answers so the meaning of life is best answers so the meaning of life is uh following locally wherever the uh following locally wherever the uh following locally wherever the gradient descent takes you um this was gradient descent takes you um this was gradient descent takes you um this was an incredible conversation officially an incredible conversation officially an incredible conversation officially the longest conversation I've ever done the longest conversation I've ever done the longest conversation I've ever done on the podcast uh which means a lot to on the podcast uh which means a lot to on the podcast uh which means a lot to me because I get to do it with one of my me because I get to do it with one of my me because I get to do it with one of my heroes John I can't tell you how much it heroes John I can't tell you how much it heroes John I can't tell you how much it means to me that you would sit down with means to me that you would sit down with means to me that you would sit down with me you're an incredible human being um I me you're an incredible human being um I me you're an incredible human being um I can't wait what you do next but you've can't wait what you do next but you've can't wait what you do next but you've already Chang the world you're an already Chang the world you're an already Chang the world you're an inspiration to so many people and again inspiration to so many people and again inspiration to so many people and again we we haven't covered like most of what we we haven't covered like most of what we we haven't covered like most of what I was playing to to talk about so I hope I was playing to to talk about so I hope I was playing to to talk about so I hope we get a chance to talk someday in the we get a chance to talk someday in the we get a chance to talk someday in the future and I can't wait to see what you future and I can't wait to see what you future and I can't wait to see what you do next thank you so much again for do next thank you so much again for do next thank you so much again for talking to me thank you very much thanks talking to me thank you very much thanks talking to me thank you very much thanks for listening to this conversation with for listening to this conversation with for listening to this conversation with John carac to support this podcast John carac to support this podcast John carac to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the please check out our sponsors in the please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you description and now let me leave you description and now let me leave you some words from John carac some words from John carac some words from John carac himself focused hard work is the real himself focused hard work is the real himself focused hard work is the real key to success keep your eyes on the key to success keep your eyes on the key to success keep your eyes on the goal and just keep taking the next step goal and just keep taking the next step goal and just keep taking the next step towards completing it if you aren't sure towards completing it if you aren't sure towards completing it if you aren't sure which way to do something do it both which way to do something do it both which way to do something do it both ways and see which works ways and see which works ways and see which works better thank you for for listening and better thank you for for listening and better thank you for for listening and hope to see you next time