Jennifer Burns: Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand, Economics, Capitalism, Freedom | Lex Fridman Podcast #457

the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with Jennifer Burns a historian of ideas Jennifer Burns a historian of ideas Jennifer Burns a historian of ideas including the evolution of economic including the evolution of economic including the evolution of economic political and social ideas in the United political and social ideas in the United political and social ideas in the United States in the 20th century to today she States in the 20th century to today she States in the 20th century to today she wrote two biographies one on Milton wrote two biographies one on Milton wrote two biographies one on Milton fredman and the other on iron Rand both fredman and the other on iron Rand both fredman and the other on iron Rand both of which I highly of which I highly of which I highly recommend this was a super technical and recommend this was a super technical and recommend this was a super technical and super fascinating conversation at the super fascinating conversation at the super fascinating conversation at the end and I make a few comments about my end and I make a few comments about my end and I make a few comments about my previous conversation with president previous conversation with president previous conversation with president zalinski for those of you who may be zalinski for those of you who may be zalinski for those of you who may be interested this is Alex region podcast interested this is Alex region podcast interested this is Alex region podcast to support it please check out our to support it please check out our to support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear sponsors in the description and now dear sponsors in the description and now dear friends here's Jennifer friends here's Jennifer friends here's Jennifer Burns you have written two biographies Burns you have written two biographies Burns you have written two biographies one on Milton fredman and one on Ein one on Milton fredman and one on Ein one on Milton fredman and one on Ein Rand so if we can we will focus on each Rand so if we can we will focus on each Rand so if we can we will focus on each one separately but first let's talk one separately but first let's talk one separately but first let's talk about the ideas that two of them held in about the ideas that two of them held in about the ideas that two of them held in common the value of individual Freedom common the value of individual Freedom common the value of individual Freedom skepticism of collectivism and the skepticism of collectivism and the skepticism of collectivism and the ethics of capitalism can you talk about ethics of capitalism can you talk about ethics of capitalism can you talk about the big picture ideas they Converge on the big picture ideas they Converge on the big picture ideas they Converge on yeah so Milton Freedman and Ein Rand in yeah so Milton Freedman and Ein Rand in yeah so Milton Freedman and Ein Rand in the biggest picture they're both the biggest picture they're both the biggest picture they're both individualists and they're skeptical of individualists and they're skeptical of individualists and they're skeptical of collectivities and collectivism so their collectivities and collectivism so their collectivities and collectivism so their unit of analysis is the individual unit of analysis is the individual unit of analysis is the individual what's good for the individual what what's good for the individual what what's good for the individual what works for the individual and their works for the individual and their works for the individual and their understanding of society kind of flows understanding of society kind of flows understanding of society kind of flows from that from that from that they also both use this focus on

they also both use this focus on they also both use this focus on individualism to justify and to support individualism to justify and to support individualism to justify and to support capitalism as a social and economic capitalism as a social and economic capitalism as a social and economic system so we can put them in a similar system so we can put them in a similar system so we can put them in a similar category we can call them individualists category we can call them individualists category we can call them individualists we could call them Libertarians of A we could call them Libertarians of A we could call them Libertarians of A Sort they're also really different in Sort they're also really different in Sort they're also really different in how they approach capitalism how they how they approach capitalism how they how they approach capitalism how they approach thinking you know irand approach thinking you know irand approach thinking you know irand developed her own moral and developed her own moral and developed her own moral and philosophical system to justify philosophical system to justify philosophical system to justify individualism and to connect the individualism and to connect the individualism and to connect the individual to capitalism and to support individual to capitalism and to support individual to capitalism and to support capitalism as a social and economic capitalism as a social and economic capitalism as a social and economic system fredman struggles a bit more with system fredman struggles a bit more with system fredman struggles a bit more with how to justify capitalism and he'll how to justify capitalism and he'll how to justify capitalism and he'll ultimately come down to Freedom as his ultimately come down to Freedom as his ultimately come down to Freedom as his core value like his God as he says and core value like his God as he says and core value like his God as he says and so Freedom does connect back to the so Freedom does connect back to the so Freedom does connect back to the individual but he's not justifying individual but he's not justifying individual but he's not justifying capitalism for his own sake he's capitalism for his own sake he's capitalism for his own sake he's justifying it for its ability to justifying it for its ability to justifying it for its ability to underwrite freedom in the social sense underwrite freedom in the social sense underwrite freedom in the social sense and also in the individual sense at a and also in the individual sense at a and also in the individual sense at a high level are there interesting high level are there interesting high level are there interesting differences between them you already differences between them you already differences between them you already mentioned a few maybe in terms of who mentioned a few maybe in terms of who mentioned a few maybe in terms of who they are personally maybe in terms of they are personally maybe in terms of they are personally maybe in terms of how they approach the justification for how they approach the justification for how they approach the justification for capitalism maybe other ways yeah for capitalism maybe other ways yeah for capitalism maybe other ways yeah for sure so beyond this idea that that sure so beyond this idea that that sure so beyond this idea that that Milton fredman takes a while to come to Milton fredman takes a while to come to Milton fredman takes a while to come to his justification of capitalism morzin his justification of capitalism morzin his justification of capitalism morzin ran kind of has it from the start she ran kind of has it from the start she ran kind of has it from the start she really focuses on the core quality of really focuses on the core quality of really focuses on the core quality of rationalism and rationality rationality rationalism and rationality rationality rationalism and rationality rationality is the defining feature of human beings is the defining feature of human beings is the defining feature of human beings and so she works from from there whereas and so she works from from there whereas and so she works from from there whereas fredman Milton fredman eventually

fredman Milton fredman eventually fredman Milton fredman eventually converges on this idea of freedom so converges on this idea of freedom so converges on this idea of freedom so that's one part of it the other is their that's one part of it the other is their that's one part of it the other is their intellectual styles are really really intellectual styles are really really intellectual styles are really really different their interpersonal styles are different their interpersonal styles are different their interpersonal styles are really different so fredman has big really different so fredman has big really different so fredman has big Ideas big principles that guide him but Ideas big principles that guide him but Ideas big principles that guide him but he's also deeply empirical he spends he's also deeply empirical he spends he's also deeply empirical he spends most of his career doing historical most of his career doing historical most of his career doing historical research economic research pulling data research economic research pulling data research economic research pulling data from how people actually make economic from how people actually make economic from how people actually make economic decisions and live in the world and decisions and live in the world and decisions and live in the world and using them to test and refine his using them to test and refine his using them to test and refine his theories where Rand to some degree we theories where Rand to some degree we theories where Rand to some degree we could say she's empirical and that she could say she's empirical and that she could say she's empirical and that she lives through the Russian Revolution and lives through the Russian Revolution and lives through the Russian Revolution and takes a very big lesson from that but takes a very big lesson from that but takes a very big lesson from that but her style of thinking is really um first her style of thinking is really um first her style of thinking is really um first principles an axiomatic approach going principles an axiomatic approach going principles an axiomatic approach going from the basic uh idea of rationality from the basic uh idea of rationality from the basic uh idea of rationality and then playing that out in different and then playing that out in different and then playing that out in different spheres and so those are just very spheres and so those are just very spheres and so those are just very different intellectual approaches and different intellectual approaches and different intellectual approaches and then they lead in some ways to really then they lead in some ways to really then they lead in some ways to really different ways of thinking about how you different ways of thinking about how you different ways of thinking about how you get things done in the world irand is a get things done in the world irand is a get things done in the world irand is a purist she wants to start with the pure purist she wants to start with the pure purist she wants to start with the pure belief she doesn't want it to be diluted belief she doesn't want it to be diluted belief she doesn't want it to be diluted you know one of her favorite sayings was you know one of her favorite sayings was you know one of her favorite sayings was you know it's earlier than you think in you know it's earlier than you think in you know it's earlier than you think in other words we're still moving towards a other words we're still moving towards a other words we're still moving towards a place where we can really hold and place where we can really hold and place where we can really hold and express these ideals purely fredman express these ideals purely fredman express these ideals purely fredman although he didn't use this terminology although he didn't use this terminology although he didn't use this terminology was much more a halfa loaf guy you know was much more a halfa loaf guy you know was much more a halfa loaf guy you know like I'll take what I can get and then like I'll take what I can get and then like I'll take what I can get and then I'll try to move to where I really want I'll try to move to where I really want I'll try to move to where I really want to be but he is able to compromise espe to be but he is able to compromise espe to be but he is able to compromise espe especially when he moves from being an especially when he moves from being an especially when he moves from being an economist into being more of a political

economist into being more of a political economist into being more of a political thinker and so that's a really different thinker and so that's a really different thinker and so that's a really different intellectual style and then it also intellectual style and then it also intellectual style and then it also plays out in their lives in that Ein plays out in their lives in that Ein plays out in their lives in that Ein Rand is incredibly schismatic I mean she Rand is incredibly schismatic I mean she Rand is incredibly schismatic I mean she wants her friends to believe what she wants her friends to believe what she wants her friends to believe what she believes and support what she supports believes and support what she supports believes and support what she supports and she's willing to break a and she's willing to break a and she's willing to break a relationship if it doesn't match Milton relationship if it doesn't match Milton relationship if it doesn't match Milton fredman he also does tend to have fredman he also does tend to have fredman he also does tend to have friends who agree with him friends who agree with him friends who agree with him yet he's always willing to debate his yet he's always willing to debate his yet he's always willing to debate his opponents and he's willing to do so with opponents and he's willing to do so with opponents and he's willing to do so with a smile on his face you know he's a kind a smile on his face you know he's a kind a smile on his face you know he's a kind of he's the happy warrior and he of he's the happy warrior and he of he's the happy warrior and he actually will win a lot of debates actually will win a lot of debates actually will win a lot of debates simply by his emotional affect and his simply by his emotional affect and his simply by his emotional affect and his cheerfulness and his confidence where cheerfulness and his confidence where cheerfulness and his confidence where Rand will lose debates because she gets Rand will lose debates because she gets Rand will lose debates because she gets so angry in the face of disagreement so so angry in the face of disagreement so so angry in the face of disagreement so yeah they have they have a lot of yeah they have they have a lot of yeah they have they have a lot of similarities and a lot of differences similarities and a lot of differences similarities and a lot of differences and and it's been really fascinating to and and it's been really fascinating to and and it's been really fascinating to kind of dive deep into both of them I kind of dive deep into both of them I kind of dive deep into both of them I just uh relistened to an Ran's I think just uh relistened to an Ran's I think just uh relistened to an Ran's I think last lecture or at least it's called last lecture or at least it's called last lecture or at least it's called that and just the the confrontational that and just the the confrontational that and just the the confrontational nature of how she answers questions or nature of how she answers questions or nature of how she answers questions or how she addresses critics and so on how she addresses critics and so on how she addresses critics and so on there is a kind of Charisma to that so I there is a kind of Charisma to that so I there is a kind of Charisma to that so I think both of them are very effective at think both of them are very effective at think both of them are very effective at winning over sort of uh popular support winning over sort of uh popular support winning over sort of uh popular support but in very different styles it seems but in very different styles it seems but in very different styles it seems like H Rand is is very cranky but like H Rand is is very cranky but like H Rand is is very cranky but there's I mean it's the most charismatic there's I mean it's the most charismatic there's I mean it's the most charismatic cranky person I think I've ever listened cranky person I think I've ever listened cranky person I think I've ever listened to to to yeah I mean people talked about her yeah I mean people talked about her yeah I mean people talked about her meeting her and coming to believe in her

meeting her and coming to believe in her meeting her and coming to believe in her ideas in a similar way as I did with ideas in a similar way as I did with ideas in a similar way as I did with Marxism in that suddenly everything made Marxism in that suddenly everything made Marxism in that suddenly everything made sense and that when they came to believe sense and that when they came to believe sense and that when they came to believe in objectivism they felt they had this in objectivism they felt they had this in objectivism they felt they had this engine for understanding the entire engine for understanding the entire engine for understanding the entire world now after a while for most people world now after a while for most people world now after a while for most people that then became confining but yeah that that then became confining but yeah that that then became confining but yeah that certainty and and fredman had some of certainty and and fredman had some of certainty and and fredman had some of that as well he he clothed it that as well he he clothed it that as well he he clothed it differently he clothed it in happiness differently he clothed it in happiness differently he clothed it in happiness where ran kind of closed it as you said where ran kind of closed it as you said where ran kind of closed it as you said in crankiness or anger I mean there's in crankiness or anger I mean there's in crankiness or anger I mean there's also an arc to ran she gets kind of also an arc to ran she gets kind of also an arc to ran she gets kind of angrier and angrier and crankier and angrier and angrier and crankier and angrier and angrier and crankier and crankier over the course of her life crankier over the course of her life crankier over the course of her life yeah what I enjoyed about my research is yeah what I enjoyed about my research is yeah what I enjoyed about my research is I was able to get into this early moment I was able to get into this early moment I was able to get into this early moment when she was different and a little more when she was different and a little more when she was different and a little more open and then I kind of watched her her open and then I kind of watched her her open and then I kind of watched her her clothes and her Harden over time would clothes and her Harden over time would clothes and her Harden over time would it be fair to say that uh Milton fredman it be fair to say that uh Milton fredman it be fair to say that uh Milton fredman had a bit more intellectual humility had a bit more intellectual humility had a bit more intellectual humility where he would be able to sort of evolve where he would be able to sort of evolve where he would be able to sort of evolve over time and and be convinced by the over time and and be convinced by the over time and and be convinced by the reality of the World to Change sort of reality of the World to Change sort of reality of the World to Change sort of the nuances of policies the nuances of the nuances of policies the nuances of the nuances of policies the nuances of how he thought about economics or about how he thought about economics or about how he thought about economics or about the world yeah absolutely fredman the world yeah absolutely fredman the world yeah absolutely fredman believed in being able to say I was believed in being able to say I was believed in being able to say I was wrong and there are some things he said wrong and there are some things he said wrong and there are some things he said he was wrong about we we'll delve more he was wrong about we we'll delve more he was wrong about we we'll delve more into monetarism and monetary policy but into monetarism and monetary policy but into monetarism and monetary policy but he was able to talk about the ways his he was able to talk about the ways his he was able to talk about the ways his ideas hadn't mapped on to the world the ideas hadn't mapped on to the world the ideas hadn't mapped on to the world the way he thought they would he does a way he thought they would he does a way he thought they would he does a really interesting interview at the end really interesting interview at the end really interesting interview at the end of his life where he's beginning to of his life where he's beginning to of his life where he's beginning to voice some doubts about globalization voice some doubts about globalization voice some doubts about globalization you know which was he was sort of a you know which was he was sort of a you know which was he was sort of a profit of globalization a cheerleader of

profit of globalization a cheerleader of profit of globalization a cheerleader of globalization he really thought it would globalization he really thought it would globalization he really thought it would lead to a better world in all respects lead to a better world in all respects lead to a better world in all respects and towards the end of his life it's and towards the end of his life it's and towards the end of his life it's about two years before he dies there's a about two years before he dies there's a about two years before he dies there's a note of doubt about how globalization note of doubt about how globalization note of doubt about how globalization unfolded and what it would mean unfolded and what it would mean unfolded and what it would mean particularly for the American worker and particularly for the American worker and particularly for the American worker and so you can see him still thinking and so you can see him still thinking and so you can see him still thinking and that to me I had sort of assumed he that to me I had sort of assumed he that to me I had sort of assumed he became crankier and crankier and more became crankier and crankier and more became crankier and crankier and more and more set in his way and and of and more set in his way and and of and more set in his way and and of course there's a phase where where he course there's a phase where where he course there's a phase where where he does become that way especially as he's does become that way especially as he's does become that way especially as he's in the public eye and there's not room in the public eye and there's not room in the public eye and there's not room for nuance but to find in the last years for nuance but to find in the last years for nuance but to find in the last years of him life of his life him being so of him life of his life him being so of him life of his life him being so reflective that was absolutely not reflective that was absolutely not reflective that was absolutely not something Rand could do I think there's something Rand could do I think there's something Rand could do I think there's a thread throughout this conversation a thread throughout this conversation a thread throughout this conversation where we should actually also say that where we should actually also say that where we should actually also say that you're kind of a historian of ideas I am you're kind of a historian of ideas I am you're kind of a historian of ideas I am a historian of ideas yes and so we're a historian of ideas yes and so we're a historian of ideas yes and so we're talking about today in part about two talking about today in part about two talking about today in part about two people who kind of fought people who kind of fought people who kind of fought for ideas for an idea like we mentioned for ideas for an idea like we mentioned for ideas for an idea like we mentioned freedom for for capitalism and they did freedom for for capitalism and they did freedom for for capitalism and they did it in very different ways and it's so it in very different ways and it's so it in very different ways and it's so interesting to see sort of the impact interesting to see sort of the impact interesting to see sort of the impact they both had and how the their uh they both had and how the their uh they both had and how the their uh elucidation explanation of those ideas elucidation explanation of those ideas elucidation explanation of those ideas like reverberated throughout society and like reverberated throughout society and like reverberated throughout society and how we together as a society figure out how we together as a society figure out how we together as a society figure out what works you know uh the degree to what works you know uh the degree to what works you know uh the degree to which they have influence on the the which they have influence on the the which they have influence on the the public the degree to which they have public the degree to which they have public the degree to which they have influence on individual administrations influence on individual administrations influence on individual administrations like the Reagan Administration Nixon and like the Reagan Administration Nixon and like the Reagan Administration Nixon and so on and how it might return like fade so on and how it might return like fade so on and how it might return like fade away and then come back in modern times away and then come back in modern times away and then come back in modern times and it's so interesting if you just see

and it's so interesting if you just see and it's so interesting if you just see this whole world as a as a game of ideas this whole world as a as a game of ideas this whole world as a as a game of ideas where we were like pushing and pulling where we were like pushing and pulling where we were like pushing and pulling and trying to figure stuff out uh a and trying to figure stuff out uh a and trying to figure stuff out uh a bunch of people got real excited over bunch of people got real excited over bunch of people got real excited over 100 Years Ago by communism and then they 100 Years Ago by communism and then they 100 Years Ago by communism and then they try stuff out and then the the try stuff out and then the the try stuff out and then the the implementation broke down and we keep implementation broke down and we keep implementation broke down and we keep we keep playing with ideas so these are we keep playing with ideas so these are we keep playing with ideas so these are the two greats of playing with ideas I the two greats of playing with ideas I the two greats of playing with ideas I think that that's a thread that just think that that's a thread that just think that that's a thread that just runs through this yeah and and of kind runs through this yeah and and of kind runs through this yeah and and of kind of pushing back against that movement of pushing back against that movement of pushing back against that movement towards communism social democracy but towards communism social democracy but towards communism social democracy but but one one difference I didn't that I but one one difference I didn't that I but one one difference I didn't that I really should emphasize Rand is a writer really should emphasize Rand is a writer really should emphasize Rand is a writer of fiction she's a philosopher but she's of fiction she's a philosopher but she's of fiction she's a philosopher but she's also a writer of fiction so she is also a writer of fiction so she is also a writer of fiction so she is working almost in the Mythic register working almost in the Mythic register working almost in the Mythic register much more in the psychological register much more in the psychological register much more in the psychological register she's creating character that people she's creating character that people she's creating character that people identify with and people relate to identify with and people relate to identify with and people relate to experiences they've had and that's one experiences they've had and that's one experiences they've had and that's one of the reasons she hits so deep and of the reasons she hits so deep and of the reasons she hits so deep and she's also offering people you know I she's also offering people you know I she's also offering people you know I read all the fan letters to her people read all the fan letters to her people read all the fan letters to her people would say things like I read the would say things like I read the would say things like I read the Fountain Head and now I'm getting a Fountain Head and now I'm getting a Fountain Head and now I'm getting a divorce you divorce you divorce you know you know having just um these know you know having just um these know you know having just um these incredible realizations Milton Freedman incredible realizations Milton Freedman incredible realizations Milton Freedman didn't get such didn't get S things or didn't get such didn't get S things or didn't get such didn't get S things or um you know I'll meet someone and and um you know I'll meet someone and and um you know I'll meet someone and and they'll say to me you know Ein Rand is they'll say to me you know Ein Rand is they'll say to me you know Ein Rand is is the reason I went to medical school is the reason I went to medical school is the reason I went to medical school you know like like a woman a couple of you know like like a woman a couple of you know like like a woman a couple of woman said this to me a few years back woman said this to me a few years back woman said this to me a few years back it never even occurred to me that I it never even occurred to me that I it never even occurred to me that I could be a doctor until I read IR Rand could be a doctor until I read IR Rand could be a doctor until I read IR Rand and I said I'm going to go to medical and I said I'm going to go to medical and I said I'm going to go to medical school and so she has that really

school and so she has that really school and so she has that really intense impact on people so she thought intense impact on people so she thought intense impact on people so she thought of herself as rational she thought of of herself as rational she thought of of herself as rational she thought of rationality as kind of what she was rationality as kind of what she was rationality as kind of what she was doing but she was actually doing a kind doing but she was actually doing a kind doing but she was actually doing a kind of mytho mythopoetic psychological work of mytho mythopoetic psychological work of mytho mythopoetic psychological work as well whereas fredman on the one hand as well whereas fredman on the one hand as well whereas fredman on the one hand was much more rational there's a whole was much more rational there's a whole was much more rational there's a whole set of economic thinking and he provides set of economic thinking and he provides set of economic thinking and he provides a rational framework for understanding a rational framework for understanding a rational framework for understanding the world and it's the framework of you the world and it's the framework of you the world and it's the framework of you know neoc classical economics at the know neoc classical economics at the know neoc classical economics at the same time he does pull on mythologies same time he does pull on mythologies same time he does pull on mythologies you know of the idea of America and the you know of the idea of America and the you know of the idea of America and the Gilded Age the frontier mythology the Gilded Age the frontier mythology the Gilded Age the frontier mythology the individual immigrant the settler individual immigrant the settler individual immigrant the settler mythology he pulls on these but he mythology he pulls on these but he mythology he pulls on these but he doesn't create them and they and they doesn't create them and they and they doesn't create them and they and they are he's more kind of playing a tune he are he's more kind of playing a tune he are he's more kind of playing a tune he already has uh whereas I think ran already has uh whereas I think ran already has uh whereas I think ran really does something a little bit really does something a little bit really does something a little bit deeper and her ability to reach into deeper and her ability to reach into deeper and her ability to reach into people's psyche and then take that people's psyche and then take that people's psyche and then take that emotional emotional emotional psychological experience and fuse it to psychological experience and fuse it to psychological experience and fuse it to an intellectual world and a political an intellectual world and a political an intellectual world and a political world and that's really what makes her world and that's really what makes her world and that's really what makes her so powerful and so I think she comes so powerful and so I think she comes so powerful and so I think she comes back in to relevancy in a different way back in to relevancy in a different way back in to relevancy in a different way than fredman does because I think in than fredman does because I think in than fredman does because I think in some way she's tapped into a kind of some way she's tapped into a kind of some way she's tapped into a kind of more Universal human longing for more Universal human longing for more Universal human longing for Independence and autonomy and kind of Independence and autonomy and kind of Independence and autonomy and kind of self-creation and self-creation and self-creation and self-discovery nevertheless there are self-discovery nevertheless there are self-discovery nevertheless there are still pragmatic ideas that uh are still still pragmatic ideas that uh are still still pragmatic ideas that uh are still important today for Milton fredman even important today for Milton fredman even important today for Milton fredman even just on the economics level so let's dig

just on the economics level so let's dig just on the economics level so let's dig in um let me try I took some notes let in um let me try I took some notes let in um let me try I took some notes let me try to summarize who Milton fredman me try to summarize who Milton fredman me try to summarize who Milton fredman is and then you can correct me yeah okay is and then you can correct me yeah okay is and then you can correct me yeah okay so he is uh widely considered to be one so he is uh widely considered to be one so he is uh widely considered to be one of the greatest and most influential of the greatest and most influential of the greatest and most influential economists in history not just the 20th economists in history not just the 20th economists in history not just the 20th century think ever he was a an advocate century think ever he was a an advocate century think ever he was a an advocate of economic freedom like we said and of economic freedom like we said and of economic freedom like we said and just individual freedom in general he just individual freedom in general he just individual freedom in general he strongly advocated for free market strongly advocated for free market strongly advocated for free market capitalism and limited government capitalism and limited government capitalism and limited government intervention in the intervention in the intervention in the economy though you do give I've listened economy though you do give I've listened economy though you do give I've listened to basically everything you have on the to basically everything you have on the to basically everything you have on the internet you give some more depth and internet you give some more depth and internet you give some more depth and Nuance on his views on this and in your Nuance on his views on this and in your Nuance on his views on this and in your books he uh led the famed Chicago School books he uh led the famed Chicago School books he uh led the famed Chicago School of economics and he won the Nobel prize of economics and he won the Nobel prize of economics and he won the Nobel prize in economics in in economics in in economics in 1976 he greatly influenced economic 1976 he greatly influenced economic 1976 he greatly influenced economic policies during the Reagan policies during the Reagan policies during the Reagan Administration and other administrations Administration and other administrations Administration and other administrations he was an influential public he was an influential public he was an influential public intellectual highly influential not just intellectual highly influential not just intellectual highly influential not just among economists he lived 1912 to 2006 among economists he lived 1912 to 2006 among economists he lived 1912 to 2006 so that means he lived and worked so that means he lived and worked so that means he lived and worked through some major world events where through some major world events where through some major world events where his ideas were really important the his ideas were really important the his ideas were really important the Great Depression with the New Deal World Great Depression with the New Deal World Great Depression with the New Deal World War II with the postwar reconstruction War II with the postwar reconstruction War II with the postwar reconstruction the rise and fall of the Breton Woods the rise and fall of the Breton Woods the rise and fall of the Breton Woods monetary system as we may talk about the monetary system as we may talk about the monetary system as we may talk about the Cold War and all the conflicts involved Cold War and all the conflicts involved Cold War and all the conflicts involved in that sort of the the tensions around in that sort of the the tensions around in that sort of the the tensions around communism and so on so the fall of the

communism and so on so the fall of the communism and so on so the fall of the Soviet Union and also he has some Soviet Union and also he has some Soviet Union and also he has some interesting relationships to uh China's interesting relationships to uh China's interesting relationships to uh China's economic transformation yeah since the economic transformation yeah since the economic transformation yeah since the 1970s the stack flation of the 1970s and 1970s the stack flation of the 1970s and 1970s the stack flation of the 1970s and I'm sure there's a lot more I'm sure there's a lot more I'm sure there's a lot more so uh can can you uh maybe continue this so uh can can you uh maybe continue this so uh can can you uh maybe continue this thread and give a big picture overview thread and give a big picture overview thread and give a big picture overview of the ideas he is known for yeah sure of the ideas he is known for yeah sure of the ideas he is known for yeah sure and that's a great summary uh you learn and that's a great summary uh you learn and that's a great summary uh you learn you learn fast so let me start with the you learn fast so let me start with the you learn fast so let me start with the economics and and then I can kind of economics and and then I can kind of economics and and then I can kind of transition to how he used those economic transition to how he used those economic transition to how he used those economic ideas to become a real voice in the ideas to become a real voice in the ideas to become a real voice in the American conservative movement in the American conservative movement in the American conservative movement in the American political realm so I'll kind of American political realm so I'll kind of American political realm so I'll kind of highlight highlight highlight four ideas or contributions or episodes four ideas or contributions or episodes four ideas or contributions or episodes um one was his work with Anna Schwarz in um one was his work with Anna Schwarz in um one was his work with Anna Schwarz in revising our understanding of the Great revising our understanding of the Great revising our understanding of the Great Depression and that's tightly related to Depression and that's tightly related to Depression and that's tightly related to the second which is the school of monitorisation of stagflation and the monitorisation of stagflation and the explanation of that in the 1970s which explanation of that in the 1970s which explanation of that in the 1970s which really is one of these these sort of really is one of these these sort of really is one of these these sort of career making predictions and we can dig career making predictions and we can dig career making predictions and we can dig into that and then in terms of technical into that and then in terms of technical into that and then in terms of technical economics he's known for for the economics he's known for for the economics he's known for for the permanent income hypothesis which he permanent income hypothesis which he permanent income hypothesis which he develops with a group of female develops with a group of female develops with a group of female collaborators that I can talk about so collaborators that I can talk about so collaborators that I can talk about so those are kind of four technical pieces those are kind of four technical pieces those are kind of four technical pieces and up being really brought together in and up being really brought together in and up being really brought together in what becomes The Chicago School of what becomes The Chicago School of what becomes The Chicago School of Economics he's he's undoubtedly the head

Economics he's he's undoubtedly the head Economics he's he's undoubtedly the head in the leader of The Chicago School of in the leader of The Chicago School of in the leader of The Chicago School of Economics there's an earlier generation Economics there's an earlier generation Economics there's an earlier generation that he learns from there's his that he learns from there's his that he learns from there's his Generation Um there's also a Chicago Generation Um there's also a Chicago Generation Um there's also a Chicago School of Law and economics that's School of Law and economics that's School of Law and economics that's really profoundly influential and then really profoundly influential and then really profoundly influential and then there'll be kind of a third generation there'll be kind of a third generation there'll be kind of a third generation that he's somewhat distinct from but that he's somewhat distinct from but that he's somewhat distinct from but that goes on to really shape economics that goes on to really shape economics that goes on to really shape economics but let me go back to these kind of four but let me go back to these kind of four but let me go back to these kind of four pieces and let me start with Great pieces and let me start with Great pieces and let me start with Great Depression so Milton Friedman actually Depression so Milton Friedman actually Depression so Milton Friedman actually lives through the Great Depression he's lives through the Great Depression he's lives through the Great Depression he's in college when it hits and he is so in college when it hits and he is so in college when it hits and he is so he's in college it's 1928 to he's in college it's 1928 to he's in college it's 1928 to 1932 and he's aware of the depression 1932 and he's aware of the depression 1932 and he's aware of the depression and he's deciding should I study mathem and he's deciding should I study mathem and he's deciding should I study mathem itics or should I study economics and he itics or should I study economics and he itics or should I study economics and he hasn't he's had some good economics hasn't he's had some good economics hasn't he's had some good economics teachers but it's really the context teachers but it's really the context teachers but it's really the context it's looking around at the slow you know it's looking around at the slow you know it's looking around at the slow you know dissolving of economic Prosperity so he dissolving of economic Prosperity so he dissolving of economic Prosperity so he decides to go to Chicago he decides to decides to go to Chicago he decides to decides to go to Chicago he decides to study economics and what's really study economics and what's really study economics and what's really interesting is that the Great Depression interesting is that the Great Depression interesting is that the Great Depression is so unexpected it's is so unexpected it's is so unexpected it's unpredicted um it's unprecedented and unpredicted um it's unprecedented and unpredicted um it's unprecedented and economists are really struggling to know economists are really struggling to know economists are really struggling to know how to respond to it and so he's going how to respond to it and so he's going how to respond to it and so he's going to arrive at the University of Chicago to arrive at the University of Chicago to arrive at the University of Chicago when the field it's is struggling to when the field it's is struggling to when the field it's is struggling to know what to do so he's in this kind of know what to do so he's in this kind of know what to do so he's in this kind of really open space where the the really open space where the the really open space where the the institutional economics of the institutional economics of the institutional economics of the 1920s has failed to predict which was 1920s has failed to predict which was 1920s has failed to predict which was focused on business Cycles this is the focused on business Cycles this is the focused on business Cycles this is the irony their big thing was charting and

irony their big thing was charting and irony their big thing was charting and understanding business cycles and then understanding business cycles and then understanding business cycles and then we have the biggest business cycle of we have the biggest business cycle of we have the biggest business cycle of all time and they haven't seen it coming all time and they haven't seen it coming all time and they haven't seen it coming and they don't have a good explanation and they don't have a good explanation and they don't have a good explanation for it and um what he will get at for it and um what he will get at for it and um what he will get at Chicago Chicago Chicago is the remnants of the monetary is the remnants of the monetary is the remnants of the monetary understanding of the economy and so his understanding of the economy and so his understanding of the economy and so his teachers they don't know exactly what's teachers they don't know exactly what's teachers they don't know exactly what's going on but they look first to the going on but they look first to the going on but they look first to the banking crisis they look first to the banking crisis they look first to the banking crisis they look first to the the 1933 it's you know Bank runs the 1933 it's you know Bank runs the 1933 it's you know Bank runs failures of maybe it's up to a third of failures of maybe it's up to a third of failures of maybe it's up to a third of American Banks it's hu thousands of American Banks it's hu thousands of American Banks it's hu thousands of banks are failing per week so they are banks are failing per week so they are banks are failing per week so they are focused on that so that's the first kind focused on that so that's the first kind focused on that so that's the first kind of imprint he will have the Great of imprint he will have the Great of imprint he will have the Great Depression has something to do with a Depression has something to do with a Depression has something to do with a banking system the second imprint he banking system the second imprint he banking system the second imprint he will have is that all of his professors will have is that all of his professors will have is that all of his professors are profoundly concerned about the are profoundly concerned about the are profoundly concerned about the social crisis they want relief programs social crisis they want relief programs social crisis they want relief programs they want them now they want Bank they want them now they want Bank they want them now they want Bank regulation and financial reform they're regulation and financial reform they're regulation and financial reform they're very active this is not Les a fair by very active this is not Les a fair by very active this is not Les a fair by any stretch of the imagination so any stretch of the imagination so any stretch of the imagination so Freeman has that imprinting and then Freeman has that imprinting and then Freeman has that imprinting and then about so that's he gets there in about so that's he gets there in about so that's he gets there in 32 36 37 the ideas of John manard Kes 32 36 37 the ideas of John manard Kes 32 36 37 the ideas of John manard Kes from Britain which has a different from Britain which has a different from Britain which has a different explanation canes has a different explanation canes has a different explanation canes has a different explanation of the Great Depression will explanation of the Great Depression will explanation of the Great Depression will kind of make landfall in American kind of make landfall in American kind of make landfall in American economics and be very profoundly economics and be very profoundly economics and be very profoundly influential on most American e influential on most American e influential on most American e economists but fredman already it's too economists but fredman already it's too economists but fredman already it's too late for fredman he already has a late for fredman he already has a late for fredman he already has a different perspective so keynesianism different perspective so keynesianism different perspective so keynesianism unfolds I can say more about that but it

unfolds I can say more about that but it unfolds I can say more about that but it basically leads to more active federal basically leads to more active federal basically leads to more active federal government participation in the economy government participation in the economy government participation in the economy and what underlies a lot of that it's at and what underlies a lot of that it's at and what underlies a lot of that it's at adaptation in America particularly is adaptation in America particularly is adaptation in America particularly is the idea that the idea that the idea that capitalism has failed capitalism has capitalism has failed capitalism has capitalism has failed capitalism has revealed itself to have a profound flaw revealed itself to have a profound flaw revealed itself to have a profound flaw in that it's two it's its cycles of boom in that it's two it's its cycles of boom in that it's two it's its cycles of boom and bust create social instability chaos and bust create social instability chaos and bust create social instability chaos it needs to be tamed it needs to be it needs to be tamed it needs to be it needs to be tamed it needs to be regulated and so that becomes the the regulated and so that becomes the the regulated and so that becomes the the kind of Baseline of politics in the kind of Baseline of politics in the kind of Baseline of politics in the United States the understanding of the United States the understanding of the United States the understanding of the New Deal the understanding of the New Deal the understanding of the New Deal the understanding of the Democratic Party even to some extent the Democratic Party even to some extent the Democratic Party even to some extent the understanding of the Republican party understanding of the Republican party understanding of the Republican party and fredman never and fredman never and fredman never quite never quite sure about that he has quite never quite sure about that he has quite never quite sure about that he has a hunch that there's something else a hunch that there's something else a hunch that there's something else going on and he does not buy that going on and he does not buy that going on and he does not buy that capitalism has sort of ground to a halt capitalism has sort of ground to a halt capitalism has sort of ground to a halt or the other idea is that capitalism has or the other idea is that capitalism has or the other idea is that capitalism has gone through some sort of phase gone through some sort of phase gone through some sort of phase transition and it worked great maybe transition and it worked great maybe transition and it worked great maybe while we had a frontier this is a very while we had a frontier this is a very while we had a frontier this is a very serious argument that people were making serious argument that people were making serious argument that people were making United States used to have a frontier a United States used to have a frontier a United States used to have a frontier a place where you know Europeans hadn't place where you know Europeans hadn't place where you know Europeans hadn't fully settled of course they're pushing fully settled of course they're pushing fully settled of course they're pushing out the native tribes that's another out the native tribes that's another out the native tribes that's another story but that this Frontier is the story but that this Frontier is the story but that this Frontier is the engine of economic growth and the engine of economic growth and the engine of economic growth and the frontier is now over it's closed and frontier is now over it's closed and frontier is now over it's closed and we're going to stagnate there's a theory we're going to stagnate there's a theory we're going to stagnate there's a theory of secular stagnation and so to deal of secular stagnation and so to deal of secular stagnation and so to deal with secular stagnation we're just going with secular stagnation we're just going with secular stagnation we're just going to have to have a more active state so to have to have a more active state so to have to have a more active state so fredman is suspicious of all these fredman is suspicious of all these fredman is suspicious of all these assumptions and he has this idea that is

assumptions and he has this idea that is assumptions and he has this idea that is something to do with money money is something to do with money money is something to do with money money is somehow important and so he it joins somehow important and so he it joins somehow important and so he it joins together with Anna Schwarz who is uh an together with Anna Schwarz who is uh an together with Anna Schwarz who is uh an econom she doesn't at this time hold a econom she doesn't at this time hold a econom she doesn't at this time hold a PhD she's working for the National PhD she's working for the National PhD she's working for the National Bureau of economic research and they Bureau of economic research and they Bureau of economic research and they come together to do the study of money come together to do the study of money come together to do the study of money in the US economy and it takes them 12 in the US economy and it takes them 12 in the US economy and it takes them 12 years to write the book and and they're years to write the book and and they're years to write the book and and they're releasing their ideas and they're releasing their ideas and they're releasing their ideas and they're arguing and fredman is writing papers arguing and fredman is writing papers arguing and fredman is writing papers giving talks saying money is really giving talks saying money is really giving talks saying money is really important um and nobody's really important um and nobody's really important um and nobody's really believing him he's a crank he's at believing him he's a crank he's at believing him he's a crank he's at Chicago he's out you know Chicago is a Chicago he's out you know Chicago is a Chicago he's out you know Chicago is a well-known University but he's sort of well-known University but he's sort of well-known University but he's sort of considered a crank and then in ' 63 he considered a crank and then in ' 63 he considered a crank and then in ' 63 he and Hest Schwarz published this book and and Hest Schwarz published this book and and Hest Schwarz published this book and it's you know 800 Pages it's a it's you know 800 Pages it's a it's you know 800 Pages it's a reinterpretation of the history of the reinterpretation of the history of the reinterpretation of the history of the United States through money like the United States through money like the United States through money like the central character is money whether it's central character is money whether it's central character is money whether it's spec Greenback or the US currency and spec Greenback or the US currency and spec Greenback or the US currency and they have a whole chapter on the Great they have a whole chapter on the Great they have a whole chapter on the Great Depression and they what they've Depression and they what they've Depression and they what they've literally done Schwarz has done most of literally done Schwarz has done most of literally done Schwarz has done most of this they've gone Schwarz has gone to this they've gone Schwarz has gone to this they've gone Schwarz has gone to Banks and said show me your books and Banks and said show me your books and Banks and said show me your books and then she's added up column by column how then she's added up column by column how then she's added up column by column how much money is in your Vault how much much money is in your Vault how much much money is in your Vault how much money is on deposit how much money is money is on deposit how much money is money is on deposit how much money is circulating and so they literally have circulating and so they literally have circulating and so they literally have graphs you can see them in the book of graphs you can see them in the book of graphs you can see them in the book of how much money has been circulating in how much money has been circulating in how much money has been circulating in the US at various different points in the US at various different points in the US at various different points in time and when they get to the Great time and when they get to the Great time and when they get to the Great Depression they find the quantity of Depression they find the quantity of Depression they find the quantity of money available in the economy goes down money available in the economy goes down money available in the economy goes down by a third and in some ways this is by a third and in some ways this is by a third and in some ways this is completely obvious because so many completely obvious because so many completely obvious because so many banks um have failed and we don't have

banks um have failed and we don't have banks um have failed and we don't have any type of B Bank Insurance um at that any type of B Bank Insurance um at that any type of B Bank Insurance um at that point so if your bank goes under your point so if your bank goes under your point so if your bank goes under your savings are there the money essentially savings are there the money essentially savings are there the money essentially vanishes and it's fractional Reserve vanishes and it's fractional Reserve vanishes and it's fractional Reserve banking right so you've put in they can banking right so you've put in they can banking right so you've put in they can loan up to 90% off on their deposits and loan up to 90% off on their deposits and loan up to 90% off on their deposits and so fredman and Schwarz present this so fredman and Schwarz present this so fredman and Schwarz present this argument that what really made the great argument that what really made the great argument that what really made the great depression so bad was this drop in the depression so bad was this drop in the depression so bad was this drop in the amount of money the 30% drop in the amount of money the 30% drop in the amount of money the 30% drop in the money they called the Great contraction money they called the Great contraction money they called the Great contraction and then they go further and they say and then they go further and they say and then they go further and they say well how did this happen and why and well how did this happen and why and well how did this happen and why and they pinpoint the Federal Reserve which they pinpoint the Federal Reserve which they pinpoint the Federal Reserve which is a fairly new institution at that time is a fairly new institution at that time is a fairly new institution at that time and they say what did the Federal and they say what did the Federal and they say what did the Federal Reserve do the lender of Last Resort Reserve do the lender of Last Resort Reserve do the lender of Last Resort what did it do in the face of what what did it do in the face of what what did it do in the face of what they're depicting is a massive they're depicting is a massive they're depicting is a massive unprecedented liquidity crisis and they unprecedented liquidity crisis and they unprecedented liquidity crisis and they find it's not really doing much and they find it's not really doing much and they find it's not really doing much and they really dig into the details and they really dig into the details and they really dig into the details and they find that the the the Federal Reserve find that the the the Federal Reserve find that the the the Federal Reserve has gone through a sort of personnel has gone through a sort of personnel has gone through a sort of personnel change and some of the key leaders in change and some of the key leaders in change and some of the key leaders in the 1920s Benjamin strong is one of them the 1920s Benjamin strong is one of them the 1920s Benjamin strong is one of them he's now deceased and the dominance of he's now deceased and the dominance of he's now deceased and the dominance of the New York Federal Reserve which in the New York Federal Reserve which in the New York Federal Reserve which in their telling you know is Global it's their telling you know is Global it's their telling you know is Global it's interconnected it's seen a lot of interconnected it's seen a lot of interconnected it's seen a lot of financial things come and go and they financial things come and go and they financial things come and go and they believe that the New York fed had the believe that the New York fed had the believe that the New York fed had the understanding to recognize this is a understanding to recognize this is a understanding to recognize this is a liquidity crisis we should be very liquidity crisis we should be very liquidity crisis we should be very generous we should support all the banks generous we should support all the banks generous we should support all the banks their influence has diminished for the their influence has diminished for the their influence has diminished for the kind of uh banks that are more um they kind of uh banks that are more um they kind of uh banks that are more um they don't say like the Rubes and the Hicks don't say like the Rubes and the Hicks don't say like the Rubes and the Hicks but it basically is it's like the people but it basically is it's like the people but it basically is it's like the people in charge don't know what they're doing

in charge don't know what they're doing in charge don't know what they're doing and so the FED pursues this kind of and so the FED pursues this kind of and so the FED pursues this kind of policy of masterly inactivity they don't policy of masterly inactivity they don't policy of masterly inactivity they don't see it as their problem they don't do see it as their problem they don't do see it as their problem they don't do much there's an enormous liquidity much there's an enormous liquidity much there's an enormous liquidity crisis and that's their version of what crisis and that's their version of what crisis and that's their version of what the Great Depression is all about that the Great Depression is all about that the Great Depression is all about that it's a financial system meltdown it's a it's a financial system meltdown it's a it's a financial system meltdown it's a liquidity crisis and that it in some liquidity crisis and that it in some liquidity crisis and that it in some ways well in many ways they they argue ways well in many ways they they argue ways well in many ways they they argue very strong counterfactual argument the very strong counterfactual argument the very strong counterfactual argument the Federal Reserve could have prevented it Federal Reserve could have prevented it Federal Reserve could have prevented it and it did not and so it becomes then an and it did not and so it becomes then an and it did not and so it becomes then an Institutional failure and a political Institutional failure and a political Institutional failure and a political failure not a failure of capitalism as a failure not a failure of capitalism as a failure not a failure of capitalism as a system and so this book comes out it's a system and so this book comes out it's a system and so this book comes out it's a blockbuster and even those economists blockbuster and even those economists blockbuster and even those economists you've been like Freedman is a crank I you've been like Freedman is a crank I you've been like Freedman is a crank I don't buy it are like Freedman and don't buy it are like Freedman and don't buy it are like Freedman and Schwarz are on to something Milton Schwarz are on to something Milton Schwarz are on to something Milton Freedman on a Schwarz are on to Freedman on a Schwarz are on to Freedman on a Schwarz are on to something and so that really changes the something and so that really changes the something and so that really changes the game and this is also one of his most game and this is also one of his most game and this is also one of his most influential contributions because influential contributions because influential contributions because Freedman and Schwarz becomes the Freedman and Schwarz becomes the Freedman and Schwarz becomes the playbook for the Federal Reserve and we playbook for the Federal Reserve and we playbook for the Federal Reserve and we have lived through this this right the have lived through this this right the have lived through this this right the financial crisis the Federal Reserve is financial crisis the Federal Reserve is financial crisis the Federal Reserve is ready to loan Co the Federal Reserve ready to loan Co the Federal Reserve ready to loan Co the Federal Reserve does all kinds of new things because no does all kinds of new things because no does all kinds of new things because no Federal Reserve chair wants to be in Federal Reserve chair wants to be in Federal Reserve chair wants to be in Freeman Schwarz 2.0 that somebody writes Freeman Schwarz 2.0 that somebody writes Freeman Schwarz 2.0 that somebody writes or they're the bad guy who let the or they're the bad guy who let the or they're the bad guy who let the economy melt down so you know the economy melt down so you know the economy melt down so you know the specifics of what they say to do have specifics of what they say to do have specifics of what they say to do have obviously evolved as the system has obviously evolved as the system has obviously evolved as the system has changed but this is this is a playbook

changed but this is this is a playbook changed but this is this is a playbook for how to deal with economic crisis for how to deal with economic crisis for how to deal with economic crisis it's Freeman and Schwarz and so it's it's Freeman and Schwarz and so it's it's Freeman and Schwarz and so it's absolutely fundamental and that is absolutely fundamental and that is absolutely fundamental and that is really going to be the place he makes really going to be the place he makes really going to be the place he makes his Mark there's a lot of things to say his Mark there's a lot of things to say his Mark there's a lot of things to say here uh so first the book we're talking here uh so first the book we're talking here uh so first the book we're talking about is the a monetary History of the about is the a monetary History of the about is the a monetary History of the United States in part for which milon United States in part for which milon United States in part for which milon Freeman won the Nobel Prize uh you've Freeman won the Nobel Prize uh you've Freeman won the Nobel Prize uh you've also mentioned the influence of the also mentioned the influence of the also mentioned the influence of the Great Depression if you could even just Great Depression if you could even just Great Depression if you could even just rewind to that yes so he went to I guess rewind to that yes so he went to I guess rewind to that yes so he went to I guess College in ruter that's right and he was College in ruter that's right and he was College in ruter that's right and he was uh you know mathematical proclivities so uh you know mathematical proclivities so uh you know mathematical proclivities so he was kind of wanted to be a he was kind of wanted to be a he was kind of wanted to be a mathematician mathematician mathematician and so it's it's kind of a cool and so it's it's kind of a cool and so it's it's kind of a cool Crossroads um it's interesting how the Crossroads um it's interesting how the Crossroads um it's interesting how the right time the right person arrives right time the right person arrives right time the right person arrives right so you described this really well right so you described this really well right so you described this really well that so he had the choice to be a that so he had the choice to be a that so he had the choice to be a mathematician or an economist and mathematician or an economist and mathematician or an economist and Economist is University of Chicago Economist is University of Chicago Economist is University of Chicago mathematician is Brown University mathematician is Brown University mathematician is Brown University whichever and whichever and whichever and then uh this is also the beginnings as then uh this is also the beginnings as then uh this is also the beginnings as you've described of mathematical you've described of mathematical you've described of mathematical economics so he fits in nicely into this economics so he fits in nicely into this economics so he fits in nicely into this using what I think you said the number using what I think you said the number using what I think you said the number of equations started going up per paper of equations started going up per paper of equations started going up per paper which is a really nice way to put it so which is a really nice way to put it so which is a really nice way to put it so really the right person at the right really the right person at the right really the right person at the right time uh to try to solve this puzzle of time uh to try to solve this puzzle of time uh to try to solve this puzzle of the economy melting down it's so the economy melting down it's so the economy melting down it's so interesting just one human it it's just interesting just one human it it's just interesting just one human it it's just from uh just zooming in on know a single from uh just zooming in on know a single from uh just zooming in on know a single human making a decision about life and

human making a decision about life and human making a decision about life and it's it's hard to know when you're in it it's it's hard to know when you're in it it's it's hard to know when you're in it that the world is melting down from an that the world is melting down from an that the world is melting down from an economics perspective and that I could economics perspective and that I could economics perspective and that I could do something about this to figure out do something about this to figure out do something about this to figure out what it is and also I'm going to reject what it is and also I'm going to reject what it is and also I'm going to reject the mainstream narrative about why this the mainstream narrative about why this the mainstream narrative about why this happened yeah so uh the other piece of happened yeah so uh the other piece of happened yeah so uh the other piece of the puzzle when he goes to recers he the puzzle when he goes to recers he the puzzle when he goes to recers he thinks he'll be an actuary so Milton thinks he'll be an actuary so Milton thinks he'll be an actuary so Milton freedman's family his parents are freedman's family his parents are freedman's family his parents are immigrants Jewish immigrants from immigrants Jewish immigrants from immigrants Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe they're pretty atypical Eastern Europe they're pretty atypical Eastern Europe they're pretty atypical and that they don't stay in New York you and that they don't stay in New York you and that they don't stay in New York you know and and they move to raway New know and and they move to raway New know and and they move to raway New Jersey and they put together a fairly Jersey and they put together a fairly Jersey and they put together a fairly middle class life as kind of they have a middle class life as kind of they have a middle class life as kind of they have a shop they do some wholesale buying and shop they do some wholesale buying and shop they do some wholesale buying and selling and then his father dies when selling and then his father dies when selling and then his father dies when he's 16 his life becomes more precarious he's 16 his life becomes more precarious he's 16 his life becomes more precarious um but it's never as precarious as he um but it's never as precarious as he um but it's never as precarious as he makes it out to be he's got three older makes it out to be he's got three older makes it out to be he's got three older sisters they earn a good living sisters they earn a good living sisters they earn a good living incidentally they all have better grades incidentally they all have better grades incidentally they all have better grades in high school than he does but he's the in high school than he does but he's the in high school than he does but he's the one that goes to college and um but it's one that goes to college and um but it's one that goes to college and um but it's actually really important that he loses actually really important that he loses actually really important that he loses his father figure because he's then his father figure because he's then his father figure because he's then looking for other father figures and he looking for other father figures and he looking for other father figures and he meets two at Ruckers one is Arthur Burns meets two at Ruckers one is Arthur Burns meets two at Ruckers one is Arthur Burns who will go on to have a huge influence who will go on to have a huge influence who will go on to have a huge influence in his career no relation to me by the in his career no relation to me by the in his career no relation to me by the way but um Arthur Burns is like him a way but um Arthur Burns is like him a way but um Arthur Burns is like him a fellow Jewish immigrant boy on the M fellow Jewish immigrant boy on the M fellow Jewish immigrant boy on the M he's older um and he's making a career he's older um and he's making a career he's older um and he's making a career as an economist and then there's Homer as an economist and then there's Homer as an economist and then there's Homer Jones who has gone to the University of Jones who has gone to the University of Jones who has gone to the University of Chicago and is studying with Frank Chicago and is studying with Frank Chicago and is studying with Frank Knight at Chicago and says you have to Knight at Chicago and says you have to Knight at Chicago and says you have to go to Chicago so he has these two

go to Chicago so he has these two go to Chicago so he has these two mentors and and burns in particular mentors and and burns in particular mentors and and burns in particular suggests oh I could be an economist that suggests oh I could be an economist that suggests oh I could be an economist that could be my career path you know the could be my career path you know the could be my career path you know the idea to be an actuary for an insurance idea to be an actuary for an insurance idea to be an actuary for an insurance company I'm not sure where he got that company I'm not sure where he got that company I'm not sure where he got that idea but he just thought that was idea but he just thought that was idea but he just thought that was something he could do as someone who was something he could do as someone who was something he could do as someone who was good at math and so the college really good at math and so the college really good at math and so the college really opens the the perspective opens the door opens the the perspective opens the door opens the the perspective opens the door um and then I think it's really key that um and then I think it's really key that um and then I think it's really key that again he's he doesn't get um he doesn't again he's he doesn't get um he doesn't again he's he doesn't get um he doesn't get an explanation that he buys for the get an explanation that he buys for the get an explanation that he buys for the Great Depression so then he's looking Great Depression so then he's looking Great Depression so then he's looking for one and the math part is really for one and the math part is really for one and the math part is really interesting aspect of his career now interesting aspect of his career now interesting aspect of his career now he actually comes to Chicago to study he actually comes to Chicago to study he actually comes to Chicago to study with the mathematical with the mathematical with the mathematical Economist Henry Schultz but he gets Economist Henry Schultz but he gets Economist Henry Schultz but he gets there and he thinks Schultz is kind of there and he thinks Schultz is kind of there and he thinks Schultz is kind of dumb he really does he's incredibly dumb he really does he's incredibly dumb he really does he's incredibly arrogant and he he just thinks this arrogant and he he just thinks this arrogant and he he just thinks this guy's not that smart and it seems that I guy's not that smart and it seems that I guy's not that smart and it seems that I mean Schultz did some really important mean Schultz did some really important mean Schultz did some really important work in the early stages of mathematical work in the early stages of mathematical work in the early stages of mathematical economics but a lot of the oral economics but a lot of the oral economics but a lot of the oral histories about him are like yeah he histories about him are like yeah he histories about him are like yeah he wasn't that bright you know so fredman's wasn't that bright you know so fredman's wasn't that bright you know so fredman's maybe maybe maybe so he falls into the set of students who so he falls into the set of students who so he falls into the set of students who were really enthralled with his other were really enthralled with his other were really enthralled with his other Professor Frank Knight and Frank Knight Professor Frank Knight and Frank Knight Professor Frank Knight and Frank Knight is against math and economics um Frank is against math and economics um Frank is against math and economics um Frank Knight is like you know a neoclassical Knight is like you know a neoclassical Knight is like you know a neoclassical Economist but not a mathematical Economist but not a mathematical Economist but not a mathematical Economist he's an old school liberal Economist he's an old school liberal Economist he's an old school liberal he's really concerned about liberal he's really concerned about liberal he's really concerned about liberal democracy um economic liberalism and and democracy um economic liberalism and and democracy um economic liberalism and and fredman is very deeply influenced by fredman is very deeply influenced by fredman is very deeply influenced by Knight and he continues to pursue

Knight and he continues to pursue Knight and he continues to pursue mathematical economics so he'll go for mathematical economics so he'll go for mathematical economics so he'll go for part of his graduate career he goes to part of his graduate career he goes to part of his graduate career he goes to Columbia University where he actually Columbia University where he actually Columbia University where he actually gets his PhD from and he works with a gets his PhD from and he works with a gets his PhD from and he works with a mathematical Economist there and so he mathematical Economist there and so he mathematical Economist there and so he comes out trained in what will comes out trained in what will comes out trained in what will eventually be eventually be eventually be econometrics statistics and economics econometrics statistics and economics econometrics statistics and economics his early Publications or in statistics his early Publications or in statistics his early Publications or in statistics but it's not really where his but it's not really where his but it's not really where his intellectual heart and soul are and intellectual heart and soul are and intellectual heart and soul are and eventually he will turn very profoundly eventually he will turn very profoundly eventually he will turn very profoundly against mathematics in economics and against mathematics in economics and against mathematics in economics and become a sort of heterodox Str become a sort of heterodox Str become a sort of heterodox Str throughout 20th century economics that throughout 20th century economics that throughout 20th century economics that says simple models are better um we need says simple models are better um we need says simple models are better um we need to work on empirical work off empirical to work on empirical work off empirical to work on empirical work off empirical data not construct elegant models and um data not construct elegant models and um data not construct elegant models and um and becomes really sort of and becomes really sort of and becomes really sort of countercultural within economics in that countercultural within economics in that countercultural within economics in that way and the test of a good model is it way and the test of a good model is it way and the test of a good model is it should actually predict stuff that should actually predict stuff that should actually predict stuff that happen it should predict stuff that happen it should predict stuff that happen it should predict stuff that happen it should tie back to what's happen it should tie back to what's happen it should tie back to what's going on I'm wondering which direction going on I'm wondering which direction going on I'm wondering which direction to go so first actually if we could zoom to go so first actually if we could zoom to go so first actually if we could zoom out on the different schools of E out on the different schools of E out on the different schools of E economics yeah just the basics you economics yeah just the basics you economics yeah just the basics you mentioned neoc classical we mentioned mentioned neoc classical we mentioned mentioned neoc classical we mentioned kenian economics we mentioned uh what kenian economics we mentioned uh what kenian economics we mentioned uh what else did we mention well The Chicago else did we mention well The Chicago else did we mention well The Chicago School of Economics right where does uh School of Economics right where does uh School of Economics right where does uh Austrian economics fit into that pile Austrian economics fit into that pile Austrian economics fit into that pile and marxan economics and can we just and marxan economics and can we just and marxan economics and can we just even just linger and try to redefine even just linger and try to redefine even just linger and try to redefine kenian economics and Chicago School of kenian economics and Chicago School of kenian economics and Chicago School of economics and neoclassical economics and economics and neoclassical economics and economics and neoclassical economics and um Austrian economics because they um Austrian economics because they um Austrian economics because they there's some overlap and tension okay so

there's some overlap and tension okay so there's some overlap and tension okay so schools of Economics so we could start schools of Economics so we could start schools of Economics so we could start with classical economics classical with classical economics classical with classical economics classical economics we could think of Adam Smith economics we could think of Adam Smith economics we could think of Adam Smith is kind of your classic classical is kind of your classic classical is kind of your classic classical Economist the founder of the discipline Economist the founder of the discipline Economist the founder of the discipline classical economics does not really use classical economics does not really use classical economics does not really use math is very close to political economy math is very close to political economy math is very close to political economy it's concerned um with as Smith puts it it's concerned um with as Smith puts it it's concerned um with as Smith puts it The Wealth of Nations it's concerned to The Wealth of Nations it's concerned to The Wealth of Nations it's concerned to some degree with distribution it's some degree with distribution it's some degree with distribution it's concerned to some degree with what makes concerned to some degree with what makes concerned to some degree with what makes a good political system a good political system a good political system and what tends to really and what tends to really and what tends to really Define classical economics when you're Define classical economics when you're Define classical economics when you're looking from a great distance is What's looking from a great distance is What's looking from a great distance is What's called the labor theory of value so called the labor theory of value so called the labor theory of value so where does value come from in classical where does value come from in classical where does value come from in classical economics it comes from the labor that a economics it comes from the labor that a economics it comes from the labor that a person puts into it so maybe this in person puts into it so maybe this in person puts into it so maybe this in some ways a comes from Lock's notion of some ways a comes from Lock's notion of some ways a comes from Lock's notion of property that you kind of mingle you property that you kind of mingle you property that you kind of mingle you know your labor with the natural world know your labor with the natural world know your labor with the natural world we can say labor theory of value so we can say labor theory of value so we can say labor theory of value so classical economics concerned with um classical economics concerned with um classical economics concerned with um Smith is arguing against mercantilism Smith is arguing against mercantilism Smith is arguing against mercantilism for more free trade um often goes by the for more free trade um often goes by the for more free trade um often goes by the name of political economy to show it's name of political economy to show it's name of political economy to show it's more capacious it's thinking of politics more capacious it's thinking of politics more capacious it's thinking of politics and economics um you can still read and economics um you can still read and economics um you can still read these books today the sentences are long these books today the sentences are long these books today the sentences are long the words are different but you can the words are different but you can the words are different but you can still follow along so the real big still follow along so the real big still follow along so the real big transition from classical economics and transition from classical economics and transition from classical economics and political economy to economics as it's political economy to economics as it's political economy to economics as it's understood today comes with the marginal understood today comes with the marginal understood today comes with the marginal Revolution and the marginal Revolution

Revolution and the marginal Revolution Revolution and the marginal Revolution is a scientific revolution that happens is a scientific revolution that happens is a scientific revolution that happens in a couple different places in a couple different places in a couple different places simultaneously right this is one of simultaneously right this is one of simultaneously right this is one of these things that you see in the history these things that you see in the history these things that you see in the history of science like you know there'll be of science like you know there'll be of science like you know there'll be some breakthrough like Darwin has a some breakthrough like Darwin has a some breakthrough like Darwin has a breakthrough but like somebody else has breakthrough but like somebody else has breakthrough but like somebody else has sort of the same breakthrough at the sort of the same breakthrough at the sort of the same breakthrough at the same time you totally you know same time you totally you know same time you totally you know differently so there's a version of differently so there's a version of differently so there's a version of marginalism that's um Continental there marginalism that's um Continental there marginalism that's um Continental there you know there's a version in the German you know there's a version in the German you know there's a version in the German speaking lands in F in the French speaking lands in F in the French speaking lands in F in the French speaking lands and in Britain and they speaking lands and in Britain and they speaking lands and in Britain and they all kind of come together and the all kind of come together and the all kind of come together and the shift is in the theory of value so the shift is in the theory of value so the shift is in the theory of value so the theory of value in marginalism is on the theory of value in marginalism is on the theory of value in marginalism is on the margin so say you have one apple and you margin so say you have one apple and you margin so say you have one apple and you want a second one how much is getting want a second one how much is getting want a second one how much is getting going from one apple to two Apple worth going from one apple to two Apple worth going from one apple to two Apple worth for you probably quite a bit if you had for you probably quite a bit if you had for you probably quite a bit if you had 10 apples maybe going to 11 apples 10 apples maybe going to 11 apples 10 apples maybe going to 11 apples doesn't matter that much the marginal doesn't matter that much the marginal doesn't matter that much the marginal value is less so what marginalism do value is less so what marginalism do value is less so what marginalism do does though most importantly is it opens does though most importantly is it opens does though most importantly is it opens the door to math and economics because the door to math and economics because the door to math and economics because it means you can graph this now you can it means you can graph this now you can it means you can graph this now you can depict this depict this depict this relationship relationship relationship graphically and there's some really graphically and there's some really graphically and there's some really interesting work in the history of interesting work in the history of interesting work in the history of Economics that shows a lot of the people Economics that shows a lot of the people Economics that shows a lot of the people who developed who developed who developed marginalism were looking to physics as a marginalism were looking to physics as a marginalism were looking to physics as a model physics the queen of the sciences model physics the queen of the sciences model physics the queen of the sciences and so they were and so they were and so they were thinking they they imported terms from thinking they they imported terms from thinking they they imported terms from the natural world describe the social the natural world describe the social the natural world describe the social world through the lens of Economics

world through the lens of Economics world through the lens of Economics terms like terms like terms like equilibrium um so the idea being that if equilibrium um so the idea being that if equilibrium um so the idea being that if you looked at a market uh a market would you looked at a market uh a market would you looked at a market uh a market would reach reach reach equilibrium um you know when everybody equilibrium um you know when everybody equilibrium um you know when everybody is bought and sold all that they want or is bought and sold all that they want or is bought and sold all that they want or the price will settle at an equilibrium the price will settle at an equilibrium the price will settle at an equilibrium price when it's really the demand and price when it's really the demand and price when it's really the demand and Supply are matching up and some of these Supply are matching up and some of these Supply are matching up and some of these ideas are things we would pick up at a ideas are things we would pick up at a ideas are things we would pick up at a microeconomics class oh yes ex this is microeconomics class oh yes ex this is microeconomics class oh yes ex this is still out there this sort of the basic still out there this sort of the basic still out there this sort of the basic Foundation of microeconomics marginal Foundation of microeconomics marginal Foundation of microeconomics marginal analysis and so in the German speaking analysis and so in the German speaking analysis and so in the German speaking intellectual tradition this is the root intellectual tradition this is the root intellectual tradition this is the root of Austrian of Austrian of Austrian economics and people picking up the economics and people picking up the economics and people picking up the marginal revolution in the German marginal revolution in the German marginal revolution in the German speaking lands are opposed to the speaking lands are opposed to the speaking lands are opposed to the historicists um who are thinking in a historicists um who are thinking in a historicists um who are thinking in a more evolutionary way about how more evolutionary way about how more evolutionary way about how societies kind of grow and change and societies kind of grow and change and societies kind of grow and change and they have a vision of economic ideas as they have a vision of economic ideas as they have a vision of economic ideas as applying differently to different types applying differently to different types applying differently to different types of social Arrangements where the of social Arrangements where the of social Arrangements where the marginalists remember are inspired by marginalists remember are inspired by marginalists remember are inspired by physics and this is a set of natural physics and this is a set of natural physics and this is a set of natural laws that applies anywhere to any sort laws that applies anywhere to any sort laws that applies anywhere to any sort of human society so that's this first of human society so that's this first of human society so that's this first really big fisser that we'll see again really big fisser that we'll see again really big fisser that we'll see again and again are you historically minded do and again are you historically minded do and again are you historically minded do certain traits of economic life um certain traits of economic life um certain traits of economic life um inhere adhere and become expressed in inhere adhere and become expressed in inhere adhere and become expressed in certain types of Societies or are there certain types of Societies or are there certain types of Societies or are there Universal economic laws that flow

Universal economic laws that flow Universal economic laws that flow through any type of society so that's through any type of society so that's through any type of society so that's kind of a juncture a break and so kind of a juncture a break and so kind of a juncture a break and so marginalism first people start using marginalism first people start using marginalism first people start using really geometry to kind of graph things really geometry to kind of graph things really geometry to kind of graph things but marginalism is also opening up to but marginalism is also opening up to but marginalism is also opening up to the possibility of calculus and the the possibility of calculus and the the possibility of calculus and the possibility of creating models but at possibility of creating models but at possibility of creating models but at that point in time late 19th century a that point in time late 19th century a that point in time late 19th century a model is something like a physicist does model is something like a physicist does model is something like a physicist does like think of like an incline plane and like think of like an incline plane and like think of like an incline plane and how fast does the ball roll from one to how fast does the ball roll from one to how fast does the ball roll from one to the other it's a physical representation the other it's a physical representation the other it's a physical representation of the world and eventually economists of the world and eventually economists of the world and eventually economists will start to create mathematical will start to create mathematical will start to create mathematical representations of the world but we're representations of the world but we're representations of the world but we're not quite there yet so we're late 19th not quite there yet so we're late 19th not quite there yet so we're late 19th century we have this we have this Fisher century we have this we have this Fisher century we have this we have this Fisher we have this introduction of marginal we have this introduction of marginal we have this introduction of marginal analysis that marks the the juncture analysis that marks the the juncture analysis that marks the the juncture from classical economics to economics so from classical economics to economics so from classical economics to economics so let's say now we we have economics but let's say now we we have economics but let's say now we we have economics but we still have this fisser between we still have this fisser between we still have this fisser between historical thinking and let's call it historical thinking and let's call it historical thinking and let's call it you know natur natural law thinking you know natur natural law thinking you know natur natural law thinking that's not quite right but physical laws that's not quite right but physical laws that's not quite right but physical laws versus versus versus contingency um and then in the United contingency um and then in the United contingency um and then in the United States this ends up mapping onto debates States this ends up mapping onto debates States this ends up mapping onto debates about capitalism and so more about capitalism and so more about capitalism and so more historically minded historically minded historically minded economists um tend to be interested in economists um tend to be interested in economists um tend to be interested in the Progressive Movement and which is the Progressive Movement and which is the Progressive Movement and which is invested in taming and regulating invested in taming and regulating invested in taming and regulating industrial capitalism and changing its industrial capitalism and changing its industrial capitalism and changing its excesses you know um Factory safety laws excesses you know um Factory safety laws excesses you know um Factory safety laws wage laws working conditions laws um yet wage laws working conditions laws um yet wage laws working conditions laws um yet in general American economists all use in general American economists all use in general American economists all use marginal analysis just in different ways

marginal analysis just in different ways marginal analysis just in different ways the ones who are more drawn to marginal the ones who are more drawn to marginal the ones who are more drawn to marginal analysis become known as neoclassical analysis become known as neoclassical analysis become known as neoclassical economists they're neoc classical the economists they're neoc classical the economists they're neoc classical the Neo is because they're using marginal Neo is because they're using marginal Neo is because they're using marginal analysis the classical is because they analysis the classical is because they analysis the classical is because they don't think we need to change the way don't think we need to change the way don't think we need to change the way the economy operates or the government the economy operates or the government the economy operates or the government operates they're not Progressive whereas operates they're not Progressive whereas operates they're not Progressive whereas the progressives are saying things the progressives are saying things the progressives are saying things like the we need to use um social like the we need to use um social like the we need to use um social control uh the the state and the people control uh the the state and the people control uh the the state and the people collectively and democratically need to collectively and democratically need to collectively and democratically need to control uh the way economics unfolds and control uh the way economics unfolds and control uh the way economics unfolds and and make sure things are fair and equal and make sure things are fair and equal and make sure things are fair and equal so that school of thought becomes known so that school of thought becomes known so that school of thought becomes known as institutional economics in the United as institutional economics in the United as institutional economics in the United States by the 20th century so it's part States by the 20th century so it's part States by the 20th century so it's part of the Progressive Movement late 19th of the Progressive Movement late 19th of the Progressive Movement late 19th century into the 20th century it really century into the 20th century it really century into the 20th century it really becomes institutional economics and it's becomes institutional economics and it's becomes institutional economics and it's quite dominant and the neoclassical quite dominant and the neoclassical quite dominant and the neoclassical economists are still there but they're economists are still there but they're economists are still there but they're very much a minority and Frank Milton very much a minority and Frank Milton very much a minority and Frank Milton freedman's teacher is one of the freedman's teacher is one of the freedman's teacher is one of the minority neoclassical economists and the minority neoclassical economists and the minority neoclassical economists and the institutionalists are much more institutionalists are much more institutionalists are much more Progressive um still is it fair to say Progressive um still is it fair to say Progressive um still is it fair to say that the neoclassical folks and even the that the neoclassical folks and even the that the neoclassical folks and even the classical folks versus the institutional classical folks versus the institutional classical folks versus the institutional economics folks it's they have a economics folks it's they have a economics folks it's they have a disagreement about how much government disagreement about how much government disagreement about how much government intervention that should be in the intervention that should be in the intervention that should be in the economy so neoclassical is less economy so neoclassical is less economy so neoclassical is less intervention and then institutional intervention and then institutional intervention and then institutional Economist the progressive folks as more Economist the progressive folks as more Economist the progressive folks as more intervention yes yes exactly right so intervention yes yes exactly right so intervention yes yes exactly right so this is the situation in the

this is the situation in the this is the situation in the 1920s but um the other piece I should 1920s but um the other piece I should 1920s but um the other piece I should mention is the first generation of mention is the first generation of mention is the first generation of progressive economists were very radical progressive economists were very radical progressive economists were very radical they were took closely allied with the they were took closely allied with the they were took closely allied with the Socialist movement with labor radicalism Socialist movement with labor radicalism Socialist movement with labor radicalism and many of them lost their jobs at and many of them lost their jobs at and many of them lost their jobs at universities this is kind of connects to universities this is kind of connects to universities this is kind of connects to the early the dawn of academic freedom the early the dawn of academic freedom the early the dawn of academic freedom this is before academic freedom and they this is before academic freedom and they this is before academic freedom and they became they were chasing they became became they were chasing they became became they were chasing they became much more mainstream by the time we get much more mainstream by the time we get much more mainstream by the time we get to the 1920s we don't really have to the 1920s we don't really have to the 1920s we don't really have radical critiques of society coming from radical critiques of society coming from radical critiques of society coming from economus much smaller profession much economus much smaller profession much economus much smaller profession much less important than it is today and less important than it is today and less important than it is today and barely peaceful because the 1920s are a barely peaceful because the 1920s are a barely peaceful because the 1920s are a fairly peaceful decade in the United fairly peaceful decade in the United fairly peaceful decade in the United States so this is a situation when the States so this is a situation when the States so this is a situation when the Great Depression hits and as I mentioned Great Depression hits and as I mentioned Great Depression hits and as I mentioned before the head the kind of most before the head the kind of most before the head the kind of most important institutional Economist is important institutional Economist is important institutional Economist is Wesley Mitchell and he has said he's Wesley Mitchell and he has said he's Wesley Mitchell and he has said he's he's written a whole book on business he's written a whole book on business he's written a whole book on business Cycles but he doesn't see this business Cycles but he doesn't see this business Cycles but he doesn't see this business cycle coming and it hits and he doesn't cycle coming and it hits and he doesn't cycle coming and it hits and he doesn't have a good explanation for it now have a good explanation for it now have a good explanation for it now perhaps the preeminent neoclassical perhaps the preeminent neoclassical perhaps the preeminent neoclassical Economist was Irving Economist was Irving Economist was Irving Fischer now Irving fiser is big into the Fischer now Irving fiser is big into the Fischer now Irving fiser is big into the stock market and Irving fiser says stock market and Irving fiser says stock market and Irving fiser says sometime in late summer sometime in late summer sometime in late summer 1929 stocks are going ever higher and 1929 stocks are going ever higher and 1929 stocks are going ever higher and will continue to go ever higher forever will continue to go ever higher forever will continue to go ever higher forever and so and so and so he loses his reputation after the stock he loses his reputation after the stock he loses his reputation after the stock market crashed so so mil and Freedman is market crashed so so mil and Freedman is market crashed so so mil and Freedman is stepping into a field in which the stepping into a field in which the stepping into a field in which the greats have been discredited and there's

greats have been discredited and there's greats have been discredited and there's an enormous economic crisis all around an enormous economic crisis all around an enormous economic crisis all around and everybody's struggling to figure out and everybody's struggling to figure out and everybody's struggling to figure out why the crisis happened yes and the why the crisis happened yes and the why the crisis happened yes and the other thing he stepping into is a world other thing he stepping into is a world other thing he stepping into is a world where in the United States there's a where in the United States there's a where in the United States there's a great deal of anger at capitalism at the great deal of anger at capitalism at the great deal of anger at capitalism at the system unemployed people on the street system unemployed people on the street system unemployed people on the street in Europe there's Rising fascist in Europe there's Rising fascist in Europe there's Rising fascist movements in Asia there's Rising fascist movements in Asia there's Rising fascist movements in Asia there's Rising fascist movements and so everyone's very movements and so everyone's very movements and so everyone's very concerned about this and fredman is concerned about this and fredman is concerned about this and fredman is seeing a lot of this through the lens of seeing a lot of this through the lens of seeing a lot of this through the lens of Frank Knight who feels like we are maybe Frank Knight who feels like we are maybe Frank Knight who feels like we are maybe reaching the end of what he calls reaching the end of what he calls reaching the end of what he calls liberalism he calls himself an liberalism he calls himself an liberalism he calls himself an oldfashioned liberalism we're reaching oldfashioned liberalism we're reaching oldfashioned liberalism we're reaching the end of Representative democratic the end of Representative democratic the end of Representative democratic government because representative government because representative government because representative democratic government cannot solve these democratic government cannot solve these democratic government cannot solve these social problems and it h and capitalism social problems and it h and capitalism social problems and it h and capitalism as it has developed Knight is very Pro as it has developed Knight is very Pro as it has developed Knight is very Pro capitalist but he says it's generating capitalist but he says it's generating capitalist but he says it's generating inequality and this is putting too many inequality and this is putting too many inequality and this is putting too many strains on the system so Knight will strains on the system so Knight will strains on the system so Knight will become one of the people who helps become one of the people who helps become one of the people who helps fredman think how do I develop a new fredman think how do I develop a new fredman think how do I develop a new theory of theory of theory of capitalism that works in an era of mass capitalism that works in an era of mass capitalism that works in an era of mass democracy where people can vote and democracy where people can vote and democracy where people can vote and people can express at The Ballot Box people can express at The Ballot Box people can express at The Ballot Box their unhappiness with what's happening their unhappiness with what's happening their unhappiness with what's happening economically so this this larger economically so this this larger economically so this this larger movement will generate of which fa hyek movement will generate of which fa hyek movement will generate of which fa hyek is a part fredman is a part becomes the is a part fredman is a part becomes the is a part fredman is a part becomes the very early stirrings of trying to think very early stirrings of trying to think very early stirrings of trying to think about a new sort of liberalism which about a new sort of liberalism which about a new sort of liberalism which will eventually be called neoliberalism will eventually be called neoliberalism will eventually be called neoliberalism okay so if we can just Linger on the

okay so if we can just Linger on the okay so if we can just Linger on the definitions of things so we mentioned definitions of things so we mentioned definitions of things so we mentioned what neoclassical is and the what neoclassical is and the what neoclassical is and the institutional economics is what's Kenzie institutional economics is what's Kenzie institutional economics is what's Kenzie in economics and The Chicago School of in economics and The Chicago School of in economics and The Chicago School of Economics I guess is a branch of Economics I guess is a branch of Economics I guess is a branch of neoclassical that's a little bit more neoclassical that's a little bit more neoclassical that's a little bit more empirical versus maybe model based and empirical versus maybe model based and empirical versus maybe model based and kenian is very model model heavy more kenian is very model model heavy more kenian is very model model heavy more intervention of government yes and intervention of government yes and intervention of government yes and there's a that's so the real battle is there's a that's so the real battle is there's a that's so the real battle is Kian versus everybody else that is what Kian versus everybody else that is what Kian versus everybody else that is what eventually comes to pass in the United eventually comes to pass in the United eventually comes to pass in the United States and in the kind of overall States and in the kind of overall States and in the kind of overall developed the kind of developed developed the kind of developed developed the kind of developed profession of Economics the other piece profession of Economics the other piece profession of Economics the other piece of the puzzle here is the introduction of the puzzle here is the introduction of the puzzle here is the introduction of mathematics and it's been around the of mathematics and it's been around the of mathematics and it's been around the edges um but it will pick up speed in edges um but it will pick up speed in edges um but it will pick up speed in the 1930s like the econometrics uh the 1930s like the econometrics uh the 1930s like the econometrics uh Society has founded they start Society has founded they start Society has founded they start publishing publishing publishing um people start using more statistical um people start using more statistical um people start using more statistical and mathematical tools to think about and mathematical tools to think about and mathematical tools to think about economics and they're given a boost sort economics and they're given a boost sort economics and they're given a boost sort of inadvertently by the rise of of inadvertently by the rise of of inadvertently by the rise of Keynesian economics so so kees is Keynesian economics so so kees is Keynesian economics so so kees is trained in the neoclassical tradition um trained in the neoclassical tradition um trained in the neoclassical tradition um he's a absolutely fascinating figure he's a absolutely fascinating figure he's a absolutely fascinating figure he's been there in the peace he's been there in the peace he's been there in the peace negotiations at Versa he basically calls negotiations at Versa he basically calls negotiations at Versa he basically calls World War II he's like hey we're gonna World War II he's like hey we're gonna World War II he's like hey we're gonna have another War here caused by Germany have another War here caused by Germany have another War here caused by Germany because this peace treaty has been you because this peace treaty has been you because this peace treaty has been you know done in such a vindictive way and know done in such a vindictive way and know done in such a vindictive way and people have made such bad decisions he's people have made such bad decisions he's people have made such bad decisions he's there he sees it happening and so when there he sees it happening and so when there he sees it happening and so when um the Great Depression unfolds he um the Great Depression unfolds he um the Great Depression unfolds he basically comes up with a new theory for

basically comes up with a new theory for basically comes up with a new theory for explaining what's going on and the explaining what's going on and the explaining what's going on and the previous neoclassical understanding is previous neoclassical understanding is previous neoclassical understanding is sort of things go up and things go down sort of things go up and things go down sort of things go up and things go down and when they go down there's a natural and when they go down there's a natural and when they go down there's a natural mechanism to bring them back up so when mechanism to bring them back up so when mechanism to bring them back up so when the econom is going down prices are the econom is going down prices are the econom is going down prices are going down wages are going down going down wages are going down going down wages are going down everybody's losing money but event firms everybody's losing money but event firms everybody's losing money but event firms are going to realize hey I can hire are going to realize hey I can hire are going to realize hey I can hire people cheap hey I can buy stuff cheap I people cheap hey I can buy stuff cheap I people cheap hey I can buy stuff cheap I don't have a lot of competition maybe I don't have a lot of competition maybe I don't have a lot of competition maybe I should get in the game here and then should get in the game here and then should get in the game here and then others will start to get in and then you others will start to get in and then you others will start to get in and then you regenerate prosperity in that way and so regenerate prosperity in that way and so regenerate prosperity in that way and so Kan Kan Kan says sure that's one Theory but says sure that's one Theory but says sure that's one Theory but something different is happening right something different is happening right something different is happening right now part of why it's happening is now part of why it's happening is now part of why it's happening is because we have work the working class because we have work the working class because we have work the working class is more empowered now they're not simply is more empowered now they're not simply is more empowered now they're not simply going to just take low wages and ride going to just take low wages and ride going to just take low wages and ride them down to the floor we might not hit them down to the floor we might not hit them down to the floor we might not hit the floor but also he says people might the floor but also he says people might the floor but also he says people might become too anxious to spend they might become too anxious to spend they might become too anxious to spend they might not want to invest and you know canes not want to invest and you know canes not want to invest and you know canes has these discussions of animal spirits has these discussions of animal spirits has these discussions of animal spirits right he's still enough of a political right he's still enough of a political right he's still enough of a political Economist to think not just in terms of Economist to think not just in terms of Economist to think not just in terms of human rationality but what are some human rationality but what are some human rationality but what are some other things going on in human beings other things going on in human beings other things going on in human beings and people might decide to sit on their and people might decide to sit on their and people might decide to sit on their money they might not invest it and so money they might not invest it and so money they might not invest it and so what happens then is you could get stuck what happens then is you could get stuck what happens then is you could get stuck in a bad equilibrium so in the in a bad equilibrium so in the in a bad equilibrium so in the neoclassical model the equilibrium kind neoclassical model the equilibrium kind neoclassical model the equilibrium kind of restarts and resets itself and he of restarts and resets itself and he of restarts and resets itself and he says no we could get stuck here we get says no we could get stuck here we get says no we could get stuck here we get stuck in the depression and in that case stuck in the depression and in that case stuck in the depression and in that case what has to happen he says the

what has to happen he says the what has to happen he says the government stimulates investment and the government stimulates investment and the government stimulates investment and the government itself invests and then he government itself invests and then he government itself invests and then he argues that you know uh this is a argues that you know uh this is a argues that you know uh this is a student of his Richard Khan says you student of his Richard Khan says you student of his Richard Khan says you know as a government invests a dollar it know as a government invests a dollar it know as a government invests a dollar it has like a multiplier effect a dollar has like a multiplier effect a dollar has like a multiplier effect a dollar spent by the government kind of ramifies spent by the government kind of ramifies spent by the government kind of ramifies out throughout the economy so it takes out throughout the economy so it takes out throughout the economy so it takes the government and puts it in the center the government and puts it in the center the government and puts it in the center as opposed to say the banking system or as opposed to say the banking system or as opposed to say the banking system or the financial system which would be the the financial system which would be the the financial system which would be the more fredman analysis and for many more fredman analysis and for many more fredman analysis and for many economists of fredman's generation and economists of fredman's generation and economists of fredman's generation and he's a weird generation because it's he's a weird generation because it's he's a weird generation because it's it's the the generation that becomes it's the the generation that becomes it's the the generation that becomes dominant it's just like four years older dominant it's just like four years older dominant it's just like four years older the men who become keyy in economics but the men who become keyy in economics but the men who become keyy in economics but that four years is really important that four years is really important that four years is really important because they come in to gradate school because they come in to gradate school because they come in to gradate school in economics and they get exposed to the in economics and they get exposed to the in economics and they get exposed to the new ideas of John May AR kanes and they new ideas of John May AR kanes and they new ideas of John May AR kanes and they you know I think it's PA Samson calls it you know I think it's PA Samson calls it you know I think it's PA Samson calls it like it was like a south sea virus that like it was like a south sea virus that like it was like a south sea virus that that attacked all of the young all of that attacked all of the young all of that attacked all of the young all of the younger economists immedately the younger economists immedately the younger economists immedately succumbed and like no one under 50 ever succumbed and like no one under 50 ever succumbed and like no one under 50 ever got the disease right because their got the disease right because their got the disease right because their their thinking is already set and so um their thinking is already set and so um their thinking is already set and so um keynesianism KES himself is very keynesianism KES himself is very keynesianism KES himself is very suspicious of math and economics and and suspicious of math and economics and and suspicious of math and economics and and he and fredman is fascinating one of the he and fredman is fascinating one of the he and fredman is fascinating one of the first books by Yan tingman a Dutch first books by Yan tingman a Dutch first books by Yan tingman a Dutch Economist to use math and economics Economist to use math and economics Economist to use math and economics these huge volumes volume one um KES these huge volumes volume one um KES these huge volumes volume one um KES pans it volume two fredman pans it so pans it volume two fredman pans it so pans it volume two fredman pans it so they're they're in the same page but they're they're in the same page but they're they're in the same page but what happens is as keynesianism arrives what happens is as keynesianism arrives what happens is as keynesianism arrives in the United States Franklin Roosevelt in the United States Franklin Roosevelt in the United States Franklin Roosevelt is not really a Keynesian he's kind of

is not really a Keynesian he's kind of is not really a Keynesian he's kind of an an accidental or experimental an an accidental or experimental an an accidental or experimental Keynesian Keynesian and there's a bunch Keynesian Keynesian and there's a bunch Keynesian Keynesian and there's a bunch of different ideas in the United States of different ideas in the United States of different ideas in the United States that that are very similar to that that are very similar to that that are very similar to keynesianism they're not theorized but keynesianism they're not theorized but keynesianism they're not theorized but there similar ideas that the government there similar ideas that the government there similar ideas that the government has to do something so this all comes has to do something so this all comes has to do something so this all comes together and and American economists together and and American economists together and and American economists realize that you can construct models in realize that you can construct models in realize that you can construct models in the Keynesian perspective and if you can the Keynesian perspective and if you can the Keynesian perspective and if you can use numbers in these models you can go use numbers in these models you can go use numbers in these models you can go to Washington DC with to Washington DC with to Washington DC with numbers and you seem like you have a you numbers and you seem like you have a you numbers and you seem like you have a you have a lot more Authority and so math have a lot more Authority and so math have a lot more Authority and so math becomes really twinned into Keynesian becomes really twinned into Keynesian becomes really twinned into Keynesian economics so numbers are used as a kind economics so numbers are used as a kind economics so numbers are used as a kind of uh um a symbol of expertise we we of uh um a symbol of expertise we we of uh um a symbol of expertise we we really know what the hell is going on really know what the hell is going on really know what the hell is going on because we have some numbers right right because we have some numbers right right because we have some numbers right right and we can create a model and so we can and we can create a model and so we can and we can create a model and so we can say okay in the model the interest rate say okay in the model the interest rate say okay in the model the interest rate is here and taxes are here so let's play is here and taxes are here so let's play is here and taxes are here so let's play with government spending let's make it with government spending let's make it with government spending let's make it up let's make it down and then we can up let's make it down and then we can up let's make it down and then we can get an estimation it'll spit out here's get an estimation it'll spit out here's get an estimation it'll spit out here's predicted GDP so the other piece of the predicted GDP so the other piece of the predicted GDP so the other piece of the Keynesian Revolution is it really gets Keynesian Revolution is it really gets Keynesian Revolution is it really gets people thinking kind of holistically people thinking kind of holistically people thinking kind of holistically about the economy as a one conceptual about the economy as a one conceptual about the economy as a one conceptual unit and you then unit and you then unit and you then have what Paul Samuelson will end up have what Paul Samuelson will end up have what Paul Samuelson will end up calling the neoclassical synthesis and calling the neoclassical synthesis and calling the neoclassical synthesis and this still in economics today if you this still in economics today if you this still in economics today if you take micro you're going to get supply take micro you're going to get supply take micro you're going to get supply and demand scarcity marginal analysis if

and demand scarcity marginal analysis if and demand scarcity marginal analysis if you take macro you're going to get a you take macro you're going to get a you take macro you're going to get a very different approach and that's more very different approach and that's more very different approach and that's more Keynesian based and so the idea is that Keynesian based and so the idea is that Keynesian based and so the idea is that and this makes sense I mean you can and this makes sense I mean you can and this makes sense I mean you can think of this from statistics right the think of this from statistics right the think of this from statistics right the way things act individually versus when way things act individually versus when way things act individually versus when they're all added together can be very they're all added together can be very they're all added together can be very different so so there's this kind of different so so there's this kind of different so so there's this kind of uneasy piece where economists are using uneasy piece where economists are using uneasy piece where economists are using kind of neoclassical tools to analyze kind of neoclassical tools to analyze kind of neoclassical tools to analyze individual behavior and individual individual behavior and individual individual behavior and individual Market behavior and they're shifting to Market behavior and they're shifting to Market behavior and they're shifting to a different Paradigm when they think a different Paradigm when they think a different Paradigm when they think about the economy as a whole and in this about the economy as a whole and in this about the economy as a whole and in this Paradigm of the economy as a whole the Paradigm of the economy as a whole the Paradigm of the economy as a whole the federal budget the taxing and spending federal budget the taxing and spending federal budget the taxing and spending power of the federal government become power of the federal government become power of the federal government become Paramount and that is called the fiscal Paramount and that is called the fiscal Paramount and that is called the fiscal Revolution and that's really the essence Revolution and that's really the essence Revolution and that's really the essence of keynesianism but the key thing to of keynesianism but the key thing to of keynesianism but the key thing to remember is that keynesianism and Canes remember is that keynesianism and Canes remember is that keynesianism and Canes are different and there's this famous are different and there's this famous are different and there's this famous episode where John manard kees comes to episode where John manard kees comes to episode where John manard kees comes to DC and he goes to dinner and he comes DC and he goes to dinner and he comes DC and he goes to dinner and he comes back and he says to one of his friends back and he says to one of his friends back and he says to one of his friends in London he oh yeah it was really in London he oh yeah it was really in London he oh yeah it was really interesting I was the only non-c in interesting I was the only non-c in interesting I was the only non-c in there yeah you know uh so keynesianism there yeah you know uh so keynesianism there yeah you know uh so keynesianism is more government intervention fiscal is more government intervention fiscal is more government intervention fiscal policy so put the government at the policy so put the government at the policy so put the government at the center of influencing the economy and center of influencing the economy and center of influencing the economy and then the different flavors of whether then the different flavors of whether then the different flavors of whether it's Austrian economics or Chicago it's Austrian economics or Chicago it's Austrian economics or Chicago School of Economics is saying no we have School of Economics is saying no we have School of Economics is saying no we have to put less government intervention and to put less government intervention and to put less government intervention and Trust the market more and and the

Trust the market more and and the Trust the market more and and the formulation of that from Milton Friedman formulation of that from Milton Friedman formulation of that from Milton Friedman is trust the money more the the not is trust the money more the the not is trust the money more the the not trust but the money supply is the thing trust but the money supply is the thing trust but the money supply is the thing that should be focused on yes so so the that should be focused on yes so so the that should be focused on yes so so the austrians and the Chicago schools see austrians and the Chicago schools see austrians and the Chicago schools see economic prosperity and growth comes economic prosperity and growth comes economic prosperity and growth comes from Individual initiative individual from Individual initiative individual from Individual initiative individual entrepreneurship kind of private sources entrepreneurship kind of private sources entrepreneurship kind of private sources the private Market is what drives the private Market is what drives the private Market is what drives economic growth not the public sector economic growth not the public sector economic growth not the public sector and so for fredman then the question is and so for fredman then the question is and so for fredman then the question is what is a government's role and because what is a government's role and because what is a government's role and because he's lived through the Great Depression he's lived through the Great Depression he's lived through the Great Depression he's not Les a fair and he won't ever be he's not Les a fair and he won't ever be he's not Les a fair and he won't ever be Les a fair now interestingly hyek living Les a fair now interestingly hyek living Les a fair now interestingly hyek living through the Great Depression at first is through the Great Depression at first is through the Great Depression at first is Les a fair and he's like sure like let Les a fair and he's like sure like let Les a fair and he's like sure like let it rip and things get so bad that it rip and things get so bad that it rip and things get so bad that Hayek's like okay that's not going to Hayek's like okay that's not going to Hayek's like okay that's not going to work can we actually define l a fair so work can we actually define l a fair so work can we actually define l a fair so what what do we mean like what's the what what do we mean like what's the what what do we mean like what's the free market what's Le Fair what's what's free market what's Le Fair what's what's free market what's Le Fair what's what's the extreme version here so yeah Le fair the extreme version here so yeah Le fair the extreme version here so yeah Le fair means leave a be in France it's more means leave a be in France it's more means leave a be in France it's more often used as an insult than as an often used as an insult than as an often used as an insult than as an actual um very few people are completely actual um very few people are completely actual um very few people are completely and totally Le a fair that would be like and totally Le a fair that would be like and totally Le a fair that would be like the pure Le Fair would be the sort of the pure Le Fair would be the sort of the pure Le Fair would be the sort of pure maybe pure Anarchist position like pure maybe pure Anarchist position like pure maybe pure Anarchist position like the state does nothing or the state the state does nothing or the state the state does nothing or the state isn't even there um but it tends to if I isn't even there um but it tends to if I isn't even there um but it tends to if I could maybe make it more precise it could maybe make it more precise it could maybe make it more precise it would be focused on freedom of contract would be focused on freedom of contract would be focused on freedom of contract would be essential and that means um would be essential and that means um would be essential and that means um like the the buyer of Labor and the

like the the buyer of Labor and the like the the buyer of Labor and the seller of Labor must have absolute seller of Labor must have absolute seller of Labor must have absolute freedom to contract so that means no freedom to contract so that means no freedom to contract so that means no minimum wage law no working hours law um minimum wage law no working hours law um minimum wage law no working hours law um no employment law things like that that no employment law things like that that no employment law things like that that that was and this is all pre- that was and this is all pre- that was and this is all pre- Progressive movement a lot of things are Progressive movement a lot of things are Progressive movement a lot of things are that way right you you know imagine that way right you you know imagine that way right you you know imagine you're in 19th century America and you you're in 19th century America and you you're in 19th century America and you have a farm and you hire someone to help have a farm and you hire someone to help have a farm and you hire someone to help you on the farm you offer the money they you on the farm you offer the money they you on the farm you offer the money they take it if they fall off a ladder and take it if they fall off a ladder and take it if they fall off a ladder and break their back maybe you help them out break their back maybe you help them out break their back maybe you help them out maybe you don't right but there's not a maybe you don't right but there's not a maybe you don't right but there's not a whole apparatus of legal liability and whole apparatus of legal liability and whole apparatus of legal liability and safety and things like that um so that safety and things like that um so that safety and things like that um so that would be one piece another piece of Le would be one piece another piece of Le would be one piece another piece of Le Fair would be free trade amongst Nations Fair would be free trade amongst Nations Fair would be free trade amongst Nations um so no regulation of who can invest in um so no regulation of who can invest in um so no regulation of who can invest in a nation or who can take money out of a a nation or who can take money out of a a nation or who can take money out of a Nation so nepon steel could come and Nation so nepon steel could come and Nation so nepon steel could come and invest in US steel and there would be no invest in US steel and there would be no invest in US steel and there would be no grounds in which to reject that um or grounds in which to reject that um or grounds in which to reject that um or you could as a billionaire in the United you could as a billionaire in the United you could as a billionaire in the United States relocate you and all your money States relocate you and all your money States relocate you and all your money to another country and the United States to another country and the United States to another country and the United States couldn't try to keep you and and nobody couldn't try to keep you and and nobody couldn't try to keep you and and nobody else could stop you from coming in um else could stop you from coming in um else could stop you from coming in um and so and then in the context of and so and then in the context of and so and then in the context of economic crisis Le Fair would would economic crisis Le Fair would would economic crisis Le Fair would would not Encompass centrally provided relief not Encompass centrally provided relief not Encompass centrally provided relief because in the pure Theory again very because in the pure Theory again very because in the pure Theory again very seldom applied purely but in the pure seldom applied purely but in the pure seldom applied purely but in the pure Theory the wages need to come down far Theory the wages need to come down far Theory the wages need to come down far enough and people need to be desperate enough and people need to be desperate enough and people need to be desperate enough to start taking work and to start

enough to start taking work and to start enough to start taking work and to start the machine again so the theory would be the machine again so the theory would be the machine again so the theory would be if you give people relief they might not if you give people relief they might not if you give people relief they might not go back to work now almost nobody says go back to work now almost nobody says go back to work now almost nobody says that in the Great Depression because the that in the Great Depression because the that in the Great Depression because the situation is so bad situation is so bad situation is so bad and it's it's you know people are and it's it's you know people are and it's it's you know people are starving on the street and feel for starving on the street and feel for starving on the street and feel for humanitarian ethical reasons it's not humanitarian ethical reasons it's not humanitarian ethical reasons it's not okay to say that the austrians though at okay to say that the austrians though at okay to say that the austrians though at first Hayak and Lionel Robbins are like first Hayak and Lionel Robbins are like first Hayak and Lionel Robbins are like this is a business cycle and it needs to this is a business cycle and it needs to this is a business cycle and it needs to run its course and it will be run its course and it will be run its course and it will be detrimental if we intervene and then detrimental if we intervene and then detrimental if we intervene and then pretty soon Hayek has to change his tune pretty soon Hayek has to change his tune pretty soon Hayek has to change his tune so the austrians are the most hardcore so the austrians are the most hardcore so the austrians are the most hardcore in terms of Li Fair absolutely and so in terms of Li Fair absolutely and so in terms of Li Fair absolutely and so Hayek will make the turn towards Hayek will make the turn towards Hayek will make the turn towards accepting more of a state and then we'll accepting more of a state and then we'll accepting more of a state and then we'll come to talk about how the state needs come to talk about how the state needs come to talk about how the state needs to support what he calls a competitive to support what he calls a competitive to support what he calls a competitive order but his mentor lud vanon mises order but his mentor lud vanon mises order but his mentor lud vanon mises Still Remains very hardcore and is not Still Remains very hardcore and is not Still Remains very hardcore and is not um really open to things like um really open to things like um really open to things like unemployment insurance or um other other unemployment insurance or um other other unemployment insurance or um other other state-based interventions what does vona state-based interventions what does vona state-based interventions what does vona say about like human suffering that's say about like human suffering that's say about like human suffering that's witnessed in the Great Depression for witnessed in the Great Depression for witnessed in the Great Depression for example like what are we supposed to as example like what are we supposed to as example like what are we supposed to as economists as humans that Define policy economists as humans that Define policy economists as humans that Define policy see what are we supposed to see when see what are we supposed to see when see what are we supposed to see when people are like suffering at scale yeah people are like suffering at scale yeah people are like suffering at scale yeah I wish I knew an answer that question I I wish I knew an answer that question I I wish I knew an answer that question I don't know enough about Von misus and don't know enough about Von misus and don't know enough about Von misus and and his reaction in the Great Depression and his reaction in the Great Depression and his reaction in the Great Depression I think I would Hazard that he I think I would Hazard that he I think I would Hazard that he would look more to the down the road and

would look more to the down the road and would look more to the down the road and say well if you start here you're going say well if you start here you're going say well if you start here you're going to go places that are are bad but I I to go places that are are bad but I I to go places that are are bad but I I don't I don't factually know what he don't I don't factually know what he don't I don't factually know what he said in response I do know that hak's said in response I do know that hak's said in response I do know that hak's position doesn't last very long it's not position doesn't last very long it's not position doesn't last very long it's not it it's not a position you can hold to it it's not a position you can hold to it it's not a position you can hold to maybe you could hold to it in other maybe you could hold to it in other maybe you could hold to it in other Cycles the other thing that was Cycles the other thing that was Cycles the other thing that was interesting is I found very few interesting is I found very few interesting is I found very few Americans um saying this it most who Americans um saying this it most who Americans um saying this it most who were were kind of small town electeds or were were kind of small town electeds or were were kind of small town electeds or the most famous is Andrew melon quoted the most famous is Andrew melon quoted the most famous is Andrew melon quoted by Herbert Hoover so so not directly we by Herbert Hoover so so not directly we by Herbert Hoover so so not directly we don't have him on record saying this but don't have him on record saying this but don't have him on record saying this but apparently Hoover records in his Memoirs apparently Hoover records in his Memoirs apparently Hoover records in his Memoirs that melan said something that melan said something that melan said something like liquidate real estate liquidate like liquidate real estate liquidate like liquidate real estate liquidate stocks you know Purge the rotness out of stocks you know Purge the rotness out of stocks you know Purge the rotness out of the system people will live a healthier the system people will live a healthier the system people will live a healthier life and certainly there were members of life and certainly there were members of life and certainly there were members of the Federal Reserve who felt like it the Federal Reserve who felt like it the Federal Reserve who felt like it would create they didn't say moral would create they didn't say moral would create they didn't say moral hazard but it would create what we now hazard but it would create what we now hazard but it would create what we now call moral hazard bad habits were we to call moral hazard bad habits were we to call moral hazard bad habits were we to intervene and to save failing Banks intervene and to save failing Banks intervene and to save failing Banks because failing Banks need to be taught because failing Banks need to be taught because failing Banks need to be taught a lesson they need to be taught a lesson they need to be taught a lesson they need to be taught discipline and so a lot of people I discipline and so a lot of people I discipline and so a lot of people I think saw it in the context of think saw it in the context of think saw it in the context of discipline this is discipline and if you discipline this is discipline and if you discipline this is discipline and if you remove the discipline um you'll be remove the discipline um you'll be remove the discipline um you'll be taking away something fundamental in taking away something fundamental in taking away something fundamental in society so Milton Friedman never quite society so Milton Friedman never quite society so Milton Friedman never quite went all the way to L Fair no no he went all the way to L Fair no no he went all the way to L Fair no no he didn't see that and what's really didn't see that and what's really didn't see that and what's really interesting is the number of incredibly interesting is the number of incredibly interesting is the number of incredibly radical proposals that he and his radical proposals that he and his radical proposals that he and his teachers were floating so I've mentioned

teachers were floating so I've mentioned teachers were floating so I've mentioned Frank Knight another really important Frank Knight another really important Frank Knight another really important influence on fredman was Henry influence on fredman was Henry influence on fredman was Henry Simons who was a junior professor Simons who was a junior professor Simons who was a junior professor Chicago and Simons had this idea for Chicago and Simons had this idea for Chicago and Simons had this idea for what he called 100% money which would be what he called 100% money which would be what he called 100% money which would be a law that says banks have to hold 100% a law that says banks have to hold 100% a law that says banks have to hold 100% of the deposits they receive they can't of the deposits they receive they can't of the deposits they receive they can't loan them out on the margin this would loan them out on the margin this would loan them out on the margin this would completely and totally have overhauled completely and totally have overhauled completely and totally have overhauled the US banking system and he would have the US banking system and he would have the US banking system and he would have said there's a category of things called said there's a category of things called said there's a category of things called Banks where you get deposits and then Banks where you get deposits and then Banks where you get deposits and then there's going to be a category of sort there's going to be a category of sort there's going to be a category of sort of he didn't say investment Banks but of he didn't say investment Banks but of he didn't say investment Banks but investment vehicles that will invest so investment vehicles that will invest so investment vehicles that will invest so similar to what did happen in in some similar to what did happen in in some similar to what did happen in in some ways in the banking reforms in that in ways in the banking reforms in that in ways in the banking reforms in that in the 1930s the the investment Banks were the 1930s the the investment Banks were the 1930s the the investment Banks were split from the deposit banks and the split from the deposit banks and the split from the deposit banks and the banks that took deposits were much more banks that took deposits were much more banks that took deposits were much more highly regulated and they were supported highly regulated and they were supported highly regulated and they were supported by the FDIC but the point being The by the FDIC but the point being The by the FDIC but the point being The Chicago School had these very radical Chicago School had these very radical Chicago School had these very radical proposals for reform go off the gold proposals for reform go off the gold proposals for reform go off the gold standard um you know restrict the standard um you know restrict the standard um you know restrict the currency you know change the banks um currency you know change the banks um currency you know change the banks um immediately relief payments now what is immediately relief payments now what is immediately relief payments now what is important to note though is that they important to note though is that they important to note though is that they thought all of those as emergency thought all of those as emergency thought all of those as emergency measures to get through the emergency measures to get through the emergency measures to get through the emergency not as permanent alterations in the not as permanent alterations in the not as permanent alterations in the state of of what had to be and not state of of what had to be and not state of of what had to be and not permanent alterations between State and permanent alterations between State and permanent alterations between State and Market where the Keynesian assumption is Market where the Keynesian assumption is Market where the Keynesian assumption is things have changed times have changed things have changed times have changed things have changed times have changed we're in a new dispensation and we need we're in a new dispensation and we need we're in a new dispensation and we need a new relationship so fredman is very uh

a new relationship so fredman is very uh a new relationship so fredman is very uh Milton fredman is very open to doing Milton fredman is very open to doing Milton fredman is very open to doing things differently in a state of things differently in a state of things differently in a state of emergency he will have different IDE is emergency he will have different IDE is emergency he will have different IDE is during World War II than any other time during World War II than any other time during World War II than any other time and that's why I argue I think he would and that's why I argue I think he would and that's why I argue I think he would have been supportive of at least the have been supportive of at least the have been supportive of at least the first rounds of coronavirus relief first rounds of coronavirus relief first rounds of coronavirus relief because I think he would have put his because I think he would have put his because I think he would have put his emergency thinking hat on so in that way emergency thinking hat on so in that way emergency thinking hat on so in that way he was definitely more he was definitely more he was definitely more flexible you mentioned Hayek who is this flexible you mentioned Hayek who is this flexible you mentioned Hayek who is this guy what's his relationship to Milton guy what's his relationship to Milton guy what's his relationship to Milton fredman in the space of ideas and in the fredman in the space of ideas and in the fredman in the space of ideas and in the context of the Great Depression can we context of the Great Depression can we context of the Great Depression can we talk about that a little bit sure so fa talk about that a little bit sure so fa talk about that a little bit sure so fa Hayek is an Austrian Economist who takes Hayek is an Austrian Economist who takes Hayek is an Austrian Economist who takes up a posting in London and you know he's up a posting in London and you know he's up a posting in London and you know he's he's in a mentor of a mentee rather of he's in a mentor of a mentee rather of he's in a mentor of a mentee rather of lud Guan mises he's writing about lud Guan mises he's writing about lud Guan mises he's writing about business Cycles um Austrian Capital business Cycles um Austrian Capital business Cycles um Austrian Capital Theory and the depression hits and he's Theory and the depression hits and he's Theory and the depression hits and he's one of the few you know economists who one of the few you know economists who one of the few you know economists who in the beginning really is not calling in the beginning really is not calling in the beginning really is not calling for much intervention although as he for much intervention although as he for much intervention although as he realizes how politically unpalatable realizes how politically unpalatable realizes how politically unpalatable that is he will develop more softened that is he will develop more softened that is he will develop more softened version of Austrian economics that has version of Austrian economics that has version of Austrian economics that has room for a whole range of Social room for a whole range of Social room for a whole range of Social Services What's significant about Hayek Services What's significant about Hayek Services What's significant about Hayek is that he is also watching what's is that he is also watching what's is that he is also watching what's happening in Austria what's happening in happening in Austria what's happening in happening in Austria what's happening in Germany and he's really worried the same Germany and he's really worried the same Germany and he's really worried the same thing is going to happen to the Western thing is going to happen to the Western thing is going to happen to the Western democracies and he sees the root cause democracies and he sees the root cause democracies and he sees the root cause of this is socialism the shift towards of this is socialism the shift towards of this is socialism the shift towards an expanded role for government which

an expanded role for government which an expanded role for government which we've been talking about it's happening we've been talking about it's happening we've been talking about it's happening in the United States it's also happening in the United States it's also happening in the United States it's also happening in Britain and so he writes this book in Britain and so he writes this book in Britain and so he writes this book that becomes is incredibly famous the that becomes is incredibly famous the that becomes is incredibly famous the road to serfdom basically saying taking road to serfdom basically saying taking road to serfdom basically saying taking these steps towards a a planned economy these steps towards a a planned economy these steps towards a a planned economy or an economy that's a modified form of or an economy that's a modified form of or an economy that's a modified form of capitalism is going to could he's very capitalism is going to could he's very capitalism is going to could he's very clear that this is not an inevitability clear that this is not an inevitability clear that this is not an inevitability but if the same steps are taken and but if the same steps are taken and but if the same steps are taken and people follow the same line of thinking people follow the same line of thinking people follow the same line of thinking we may end up in a sort of coercive um we may end up in a sort of coercive um we may end up in a sort of coercive um totalitarian state so this becomes totalitarian state so this becomes totalitarian state so this becomes enormously popular in the United States enormously popular in the United States enormously popular in the United States first of all he's in good touch with first of all he's in good touch with first of all he's in good touch with fredman's teachers even before this book fredman's teachers even before this book fredman's teachers even before this book comes out they see them as Kindred comes out they see them as Kindred comes out they see them as Kindred Spirits Frank Knight is in touch with Spirits Frank Knight is in touch with Spirits Frank Knight is in touch with him Henry Simons is in touch with him him Henry Simons is in touch with him him Henry Simons is in touch with him they all see themselves as liberals they they all see themselves as liberals they they all see themselves as liberals they call themselves old-fashioned call themselves old-fashioned call themselves old-fashioned unreconstructed liberals and so even unreconstructed liberals and so even unreconstructed liberals and so even before he becomes famous Hayek will be before he becomes famous Hayek will be before he becomes famous Hayek will be trying to kind of organize thinkers and trying to kind of organize thinkers and trying to kind of organize thinkers and intellectuals who he believed shares his intellectuals who he believed shares his intellectuals who he believed shares his values of what we would call today values of what we would call today values of what we would call today Classical liberalism and to kind of Classical liberalism and to kind of Classical liberalism and to kind of create a counter consensus to the one create a counter consensus to the one create a counter consensus to the one that's Gathering now Hayek also chooses that's Gathering now Hayek also chooses that's Gathering now Hayek also chooses not to argue against canes and he feels not to argue against canes and he feels not to argue against canes and he feels that this is a huge missed opportunity that this is a huge missed opportunity that this is a huge missed opportunity that he should have staked out the case that he should have staked out the case that he should have staked out the case against canes and that because he did against canes and that because he did against canes and that because he did not people come to believe there is no not people come to believe there is no not people come to believe there is no case against Caines canes is literally case against Caines canes is literally case against Caines canes is literally unanswerable so Hayek will have this unanswerable so Hayek will have this unanswerable so Hayek will have this great great great regret he will Channel some of his regret he will Channel some of his regret he will Channel some of his regrets into sort of community building regrets into sort of community building regrets into sort of community building specifically developing The Mont specifically developing The Mont specifically developing The Mont Pellerin

Pellerin Pellerin Society um and it will fall to fredman Society um and it will fall to fredman Society um and it will fall to fredman to really make that case against to really make that case against to really make that case against canes but Hayek will end up at Chicago canes but Hayek will end up at Chicago canes but Hayek will end up at Chicago and Hayek really influences fredman to and Hayek really influences fredman to and Hayek really influences fredman to think about what hay calls the think about what hay calls the think about what hay calls the competitive competitive competitive order and how the order and how the order and how the state can and must maintain the state can and must maintain the state can and must maintain the competitive order that is the system of competitive order that is the system of competitive order that is the system of laws of norms of practices that makes it laws of norms of practices that makes it laws of norms of practices that makes it possible for markets to function and possible for markets to function and possible for markets to function and this is one of these key differentiators this is one of these key differentiators this is one of these key differentiators between the older philosophy of Le far between the older philosophy of Le far between the older philosophy of Le far and the newer reconceptualization of and the newer reconceptualization of and the newer reconceptualization of liberalism which says yes we need a liberalism which says yes we need a liberalism which says yes we need a state we need a state that's not state we need a state that's not state we need a state that's not intervening in markets under Social intervening in markets under Social intervening in markets under Social Democratic aaces but is structuring and Democratic aaces but is structuring and Democratic aaces but is structuring and supporting markets so that they can supporting markets so that they can supporting markets so that they can function with maximum function with maximum function with maximum Freedom keeping in mind that if there Freedom keeping in mind that if there Freedom keeping in mind that if there aren't basic social supports needed the aren't basic social supports needed the aren't basic social supports needed the market is apt to generate the type of market is apt to generate the type of market is apt to generate the type of either inequality or social instability either inequality or social instability either inequality or social instability that will the whole system into question that will the whole system into question that will the whole system into question so Hayek is really key in promoting this so Hayek is really key in promoting this so Hayek is really key in promoting this modified modified modified liberalism but from being a very liberalism but from being a very liberalism but from being a very prominent Economist in the 1920s and prominent Economist in the 1920s and prominent Economist in the 1920s and 1930s as mathematics becomes the 1930s as mathematics becomes the 1930s as mathematics becomes the language of eon economics hyek is language of eon economics hyek is language of eon economics hyek is completely left out in the cold now completely left out in the cold now completely left out in the cold now fredman to some degree is left out in fredman to some degree is left out in fredman to some degree is left out in the cold but fredman at least has proved the cold but fredman at least has proved the cold but fredman at least has proved the mathematical Economist that he knows

the mathematical Economist that he knows the mathematical Economist that he knows what they're up to and he's rejecting it what they're up to and he's rejecting it what they're up to and he's rejecting it from a position of expertise and from a position of expertise and from a position of expertise and knowledge knowledge knowledge and he literally drives the mathematical and he literally drives the mathematical and he literally drives the mathematical economists out of Chicago they're economists out of Chicago they're economists out of Chicago they're clustered in a group called The Kohl's clustered in a group called The Kohl's clustered in a group called The Kohl's commission and he makes their life hell commission and he makes their life hell commission and he makes their life hell they they they have to they flee they they they they have to they flee they they they they have to they flee they flee the fredman ons slot but then when flee the fredman ons slot but then when flee the fredman ons slot but then when Hayak arrives at the University of Hayak arrives at the University of Hayak arrives at the University of Chicago he would like to be considered Chicago he would like to be considered Chicago he would like to be considered for a position in the economics for a position in the economics for a position in the economics department and fredman Milton Freedman department and fredman Milton Freedman department and fredman Milton Freedman says no way you're not really an says no way you're not really an says no way you're not really an economist because you're not empirical economist because you're not empirical economist because you're not empirical because you just develop these theories because you just develop these theories because you just develop these theories so so he has an appreciation for hyek as so so he has an appreciation for hyek as so so he has an appreciation for hyek as a social thinker but not as an economist a social thinker but not as an economist a social thinker but not as an economist so what fredman decides to do his answer so what fredman decides to do his answer so what fredman decides to do his answer to KES will be deeply empirical but it to KES will be deeply empirical but it to KES will be deeply empirical but it will also be theoretical and it will will also be theoretical and it will will also be theoretical and it will create an alternative intellectual world create an alternative intellectual world create an alternative intellectual world and approach for economists who aren't and approach for economists who aren't and approach for economists who aren't satisfied with keynesianism and almost satisfied with keynesianism and almost satisfied with keynesianism and almost singlehandedly Freeman will introduce singlehandedly Freeman will introduce singlehandedly Freeman will introduce sort of political and ideological sort of political and ideological sort of political and ideological diversity into the field of economics diversity into the field of economics diversity into the field of economics because from his Beach head in Chicago because from his Beach head in Chicago because from his Beach head in Chicago he will develop the theory of he will develop the theory of he will develop the theory of monetarism so what is monetarism the monetarism so what is monetarism the monetarism so what is monetarism the easy way to summarize it is this famous easy way to summarize it is this famous easy way to summarize it is this famous dictum of of Milton fredman's inflation dictum of of Milton fredman's inflation dictum of of Milton fredman's inflation is always and everywhere a monetary is always and everywhere a monetary is always and everywhere a monetary phenomena and it's fascinating that he phenomena and it's fascinating that he phenomena and it's fascinating that he becomes an expert in inflation because becomes an expert in inflation because becomes an expert in inflation because the first the first the first research and the first major research

research and the first major research research and the first major research product of product of product of monitormusicpatternphotographyproductssci monitormusicpatternphotographyproductssci monitormusicpatternphotographyproductssci of the Great Depression in a monetary of the Great Depression in a monetary of the Great Depression in a monetary History of the United States and that is History of the United States and that is History of the United States and that is a theory of a deflation all prices going a theory of a deflation all prices going a theory of a deflation all prices going down and he will go back to an idea that down and he will go back to an idea that down and he will go back to an idea that Irving fiser had popularized but a very Irving fiser had popularized but a very Irving fiser had popularized but a very old idea almost a truism the quantity old idea almost a truism the quantity old idea almost a truism the quantity theory of money which says the level of theory of money which says the level of theory of money which says the level of the price level is related to the amount the price level is related to the amount the price level is related to the amount of money circulating in an economy so if of money circulating in an economy so if of money circulating in an economy so if you have more money prices go up if you you have more money prices go up if you you have more money prices go up if you have less money prices go down now this have less money prices go down now this have less money prices go down now this seems like very basic and almost almost seems like very basic and almost almost seems like very basic and almost almost too basic to bear repeating but fredman too basic to bear repeating but fredman too basic to bear repeating but fredman is saying this air basic relationship is saying this air basic relationship is saying this air basic relationship holds true even in an advanced holds true even in an advanced holds true even in an advanced industrial economy and that is what industrial economy and that is what industrial economy and that is what people have started to doubt and if you people have started to doubt and if you people have started to doubt and if you think about money you think about Banks think about money you think about Banks think about money you think about Banks you don't think necessarily about the you don't think necessarily about the you don't think necessarily about the federal budget spending and Taxation and federal budget spending and Taxation and federal budget spending and Taxation and what you see happens in American what you see happens in American what you see happens in American economics the textbooks previous to the economics the textbooks previous to the economics the textbooks previous to the Keynesian Revolution they spent a lot of Keynesian Revolution they spent a lot of Keynesian Revolution they spent a lot of time on money they spent a lot of time time on money they spent a lot of time time on money they spent a lot of time on interest rates you can C you can do on interest rates you can C you can do on interest rates you can C you can do word counts and and other Scholars have word counts and and other Scholars have word counts and and other Scholars have done the word counts and then word count done the word counts and then word count done the word counts and then word count for money after World War II just for money after World War II just for money after World War II just plummets and you start seeing things plummets and you start seeing things plummets and you start seeing things like taxation budget those things go up like taxation budget those things go up like taxation budget those things go up so that the what happens is the the so that the what happens is the the so that the what happens is the the economics profession shifts its economics profession shifts its economics profession shifts its attention it just looks away from money attention it just looks away from money attention it just looks away from money to other things and fredman is one of to other things and fredman is one of to other things and fredman is one of the few who's saying no money still the few who's saying no money still the few who's saying no money still matters money still counts and it's a

matters money still counts and it's a matters money still counts and it's a very counter intuitive argument to make very counter intuitive argument to make very counter intuitive argument to make it's a very historical argument to make it's a very historical argument to make it's a very historical argument to make and this is absolutely fascinating to me and this is absolutely fascinating to me and this is absolutely fascinating to me with Anna Schwarz he develops this with Anna Schwarz he develops this with Anna Schwarz he develops this 150e time frame he also has students 150e time frame he also has students 150e time frame he also has students working on episodes of working on episodes of working on episodes of hyperinflation in different periods of hyperinflation in different periods of hyperinflation in different periods of time he's also looking back to like time he's also looking back to like time he's also looking back to like ancient history inflationary episodes ancient history inflationary episodes ancient history inflationary episodes there and he's saying this is a this is there and he's saying this is a this is there and he's saying this is a this is a law of Economics this is something a law of Economics this is something a law of Economics this is something that recurs throughout time it's not that recurs throughout time it's not that recurs throughout time it's not historical right it's not contingent historical right it's not contingent historical right it's not contingent it's to law of economics and you know it's to law of economics and you know it's to law of economics and you know his keyy and counter points are saying his keyy and counter points are saying his keyy and counter points are saying no that's not relevant any longer maybe no that's not relevant any longer maybe no that's not relevant any longer maybe once it was relevant but it's not once it was relevant but it's not once it was relevant but it's not relevant today now in some ways they relevant today now in some ways they relevant today now in some ways they have a point have a point have a point because the in order to pay for World because the in order to pay for World because the in order to pay for World War II the federal War II the federal War II the federal government sells a lot of bonds IT government sells a lot of bonds IT government sells a lot of bonds IT issues a lot of debt and it wants to pay issues a lot of debt and it wants to pay issues a lot of debt and it wants to pay this debt back at a low interest rate this debt back at a low interest rate this debt back at a low interest rate and it wants people to keep buying it it and it wants people to keep buying it it and it wants people to keep buying it it wants the low interest rate to be wants the low interest rate to be wants the low interest rate to be competitive with other interest rates so competitive with other interest rates so competitive with other interest rates so it wants in general low interest rates it wants in general low interest rates it wants in general low interest rates throughout the economy and the Federal throughout the economy and the Federal throughout the economy and the Federal Reserve has been so discredited by the Reserve has been so discredited by the Reserve has been so discredited by the Great Depression that the treasury Great Depression that the treasury Great Depression that the treasury basically runs the Federal Reserve and basically runs the Federal Reserve and basically runs the Federal Reserve and says keep interest rates low and so says keep interest rates low and so says keep interest rates low and so that's what it's doing and so the that's what it's doing and so the that's what it's doing and so the Federal Reserve has stopped being an Federal Reserve has stopped being an Federal Reserve has stopped being an independent entity it's it's just a sub independent entity it's it's just a sub independent entity it's it's just a sub sort of Department of the treasury but sort of Department of the treasury but sort of Department of the treasury but in 1951 they negotiate What's called the

in 1951 they negotiate What's called the in 1951 they negotiate What's called the treasur fed Accord and the Federal treasur fed Accord and the Federal treasur fed Accord and the Federal Reserve gets its independence but it Reserve gets its independence but it Reserve gets its independence but it doesn't really use it but statutorily it doesn't really use it but statutorily it doesn't really use it but statutorily it now has it and so most economists are now has it and so most economists are now has it and so most economists are just observing a regime in which the just observing a regime in which the just observing a regime in which the Federal Reserve has no power a regime in Federal Reserve has no power a regime in Federal Reserve has no power a regime in which there is really little inflation which there is really little inflation which there is really little inflation the inflation that is seen is post a the inflation that is seen is post a the inflation that is seen is post a little burst of inflation in the Korean little burst of inflation in the Korean little burst of inflation in the Korean War um and there're saying inflation's War um and there're saying inflation's War um and there're saying inflation's not really important it's not really not really important it's not really not really important it's not really relevant and money's not really relevant relevant and money's not really relevant relevant and money's not really relevant and important and so to break through and important and so to break through and important and so to break through and to make the argument that's why and to make the argument that's why and to make the argument that's why fredman and Schwarz go to history and fredman and Schwarz go to history and fredman and Schwarz go to history and they're able to make that argument for they're able to make that argument for they're able to make that argument for history so then fredman is coming out history so then fredman is coming out history so then fredman is coming out with a variety of papers that are with a variety of papers that are with a variety of papers that are saying you know when I look at economic saying you know when I look at economic saying you know when I look at economic fluctuations he Maps them side by side fluctuations he Maps them side by side fluctuations he Maps them side by side to fluctuations in the money supply and to fluctuations in the money supply and to fluctuations in the money supply and says look they fit and other economists says look they fit and other economists says look they fit and other economists remember they're building complicated remember they're building complicated remember they're building complicated mathematical models and Freeman's doing mathematical models and Freeman's doing mathematical models and Freeman's doing extremely simple stuff and they just extremely simple stuff and they just extremely simple stuff and they just think it's dumb it's not interesting think it's dumb it's not interesting think it's dumb it's not interesting it's not true they just they don't buy it's not true they just they don't buy it's not true they just they don't buy it at all and so um but after a monetary it at all and so um but after a monetary it at all and so um but after a monetary History of the United States they have History of the United States they have History of the United States they have to pay attention so it's really in those to pay attention so it's really in those to pay attention so it's really in those years Freeman is hammering this idea of years Freeman is hammering this idea of years Freeman is hammering this idea of monitorisation

you're heading towards a monitor you're heading towards a monitor position now at the same time Freeman position now at the same time Freeman position now at the same time Freeman comes out very publicly in 1964 is a comes out very publicly in 1964 is a comes out very publicly in 1964 is a supporter of Barry supporter of Barry supporter of Barry Goldwater and keyy and economics has Goldwater and keyy and economics has Goldwater and keyy and economics has found a home in the Democratic party its found a home in the Democratic party its found a home in the Democratic party its probably brightest moment in the sun is probably brightest moment in the sun is probably brightest moment in the sun is the administration of John F Kennedy who the administration of John F Kennedy who the administration of John F Kennedy who brings in a lot of Harvard and Yale brings in a lot of Harvard and Yale brings in a lot of Harvard and Yale professors to the Council of economic professors to the Council of economic professors to the Council of economic advisors he proposes a series of advisors he proposes a series of advisors he proposes a series of spending programs that are really guided spending programs that are really guided spending programs that are really guided by the Keynesian philosophy and iberry by the Keynesian philosophy and iberry by the Keynesian philosophy and iberry Goldwater is tremendously controversial Goldwater is tremendously controversial Goldwater is tremendously controversial part for his votes against civil rights part for his votes against civil rights part for his votes against civil rights which fredman really supports in part which fredman really supports in part which fredman really supports in part because he's a hardcore libertarian in because he's a hardcore libertarian in because he's a hardcore libertarian in an age when that's not in the political an age when that's not in the political an age when that's not in the political mainstream or not discussed in the mainstream or not discussed in the mainstream or not discussed in the political mainstream and I mean he's political mainstream and I mean he's political mainstream and I mean he's just tremendously unpopular particularly just tremendously unpopular particularly just tremendously unpopular particularly in all the educated precincts where in all the educated precincts where in all the educated precincts where fredman lives so fredman is like an fredman lives so fredman is like an fredman lives so fredman is like an outcast on a pariah for his support of outcast on a pariah for his support of outcast on a pariah for his support of Goldwater and so that actually really Goldwater and so that actually really Goldwater and so that actually really affects mon ISM because people feel that affects mon ISM because people feel that affects mon ISM because people feel that this is now becoming a package deal and this is now becoming a package deal and this is now becoming a package deal and so there's a great reluctance to embrace so there's a great reluctance to embrace so there's a great reluctance to embrace freedman's ideas because it seems like freedman's ideas because it seems like freedman's ideas because it seems like you would then have to embrace his you would then have to embrace his you would then have to embrace his politics uh so it's associated with with politics uh so it's associated with with politics uh so it's associated with with conservatism so this is the years when conservatism so this is the years when conservatism so this is the years when conservatism there is a movement that conservatism there is a movement that conservatism there is a movement that calls itself conservatism and fredman is calls itself conservatism and fredman is calls itself conservatism and fredman is very tightly allied with this movement very tightly allied with this movement very tightly allied with this movement from the beginning partly through his from the beginning partly through his from the beginning partly through his friendship with William F Buckley friendship with William F Buckley friendship with William F Buckley and a lot of people say to me yeah but

and a lot of people say to me yeah but and a lot of people say to me yeah but fredman's not conservative and this is fredman's not conservative and this is fredman's not conservative and this is like a bigger we have a whole separate like a bigger we have a whole separate like a bigger we have a whole separate podcast on this but for now I'll just podcast on this but for now I'll just podcast on this but for now I'll just say that conservative in the United say that conservative in the United say that conservative in the United States becomes a political brand that States becomes a political brand that States becomes a political brand that contains elements of conservatism that contains elements of conservatism that contains elements of conservatism that are recognizable across time and space are recognizable across time and space are recognizable across time and space Embrace of tradition or comfort with Embrace of tradition or comfort with Embrace of tradition or comfort with hierarchy Etc and it also has something hierarchy Etc and it also has something hierarchy Etc and it also has something new and different which is fredman's new and different which is fredman's new and different which is fredman's ideas is about Milton fredman's advocacy ideas is about Milton fredman's advocacy ideas is about Milton fredman's advocacy of more free markets less government of more free markets less government of more free markets less government regulation and the benefits of regulation and the benefits of regulation and the benefits of capitalism and the benefits of freedom capitalism and the benefits of freedom capitalism and the benefits of freedom and that gets folded into American and that gets folded into American and that gets folded into American conservatism in part because Milton conservatism in part because Milton conservatism in part because Milton Friedman is such a powerful intellectual Friedman is such a powerful intellectual Friedman is such a powerful intellectual figure and after his advocacy of figure and after his advocacy of figure and after his advocacy of Goldwater the media realizes this guy's Goldwater the media realizes this guy's Goldwater the media realizes this guy's really smart he has really interesting really smart he has really interesting really smart he has really interesting things to say he makes great copy he things to say he makes great copy he things to say he makes great copy he makes a great guest and he starts makes a great guest and he starts makes a great guest and he starts writing a column for Newsweek magazine writing a column for Newsweek magazine writing a column for Newsweek magazine which is very big deal in a much more which is very big deal in a much more which is very big deal in a much more Consolidated media environment and he's Consolidated media environment and he's Consolidated media environment and he's quoted in all the newspapers and so his quoted in all the newspapers and so his quoted in all the newspapers and so his public profile really starts to rise public profile really starts to rise public profile really starts to rise right as he's pushing monitormusicpatternphotographyproductssci monitormusicpatternphotographyproductssci sell stuff and there's this fascinating

sell stuff and there's this fascinating sell stuff and there's this fascinating complex dynamical system of people um complex dynamical system of people um complex dynamical system of people um Contracting with each other in this Contracting with each other in this Contracting with each other in this beautiful way I mean there's so many beautiful way I mean there's so many beautiful way I mean there's so many pothead questions I want to ask here pothead questions I want to ask here pothead questions I want to ask here about the nature of money I mean money about the nature of money I mean money about the nature of money I mean money is fascinating in that way and for I is fascinating in that way and for I is fascinating in that way and for I think for for Milton think for for Milton think for for Milton fredman uh trusting the the flow of fredman uh trusting the the flow of fredman uh trusting the the flow of money is really important yeah and the money is really important yeah and the money is really important yeah and the signals that pricing and money in signals that pricing and money in signals that pricing and money in general provides is uh really important general provides is uh really important general provides is uh really important so yeah and some of this uh I could take so yeah and some of this uh I could take so yeah and some of this uh I could take some of this back again to Frank Knight some of this back again to Frank Knight some of this back again to Frank Knight so one thing Frank Knight said to all so one thing Frank Knight said to all so one thing Frank Knight said to all his students was the market is the best his students was the market is the best his students was the market is the best allocation mechanism we have the market allocation mechanism we have the market allocation mechanism we have the market is what allocates resources in a is what allocates resources in a is what allocates resources in a situation of scarcity the market situation of scarcity the market situation of scarcity the market allocates them the best and Hayek will allocates them the best and Hayek will allocates them the best and Hayek will add to that by saying prices are add to that by saying prices are add to that by saying prices are information signals and a price sends information signals and a price sends information signals and a price sends information to buyers and sellers about information to buyers and sellers about information to buyers and sellers about how they should act act and these are how they should act act and these are how they should act act and these are the two of the strongest Arguments for the two of the strongest Arguments for the two of the strongest Arguments for why the government should not intervene why the government should not intervene why the government should not intervene in the price system because it will blur in the price system because it will blur in the price system because it will blur information or because it will allocate information or because it will allocate information or because it will allocate less efficiently than Market allocation less efficiently than Market allocation less efficiently than Market allocation will and so what Freedman is really will and so what Freedman is really will and so what Freedman is really going to add to that is maybe going up a going to add to that is maybe going up a going to add to that is maybe going up a level and thinking in the macro about level and thinking in the macro about level and thinking in the macro about the whole economy and how money the whole economy and how money the whole economy and how money circulates through that economy as a circulates through that economy as a circulates through that economy as a whole and so what he and hna Schwarz do whole and so what he and hna Schwarz do whole and so what he and hna Schwarz do is they construct what are called

is they construct what are called is they construct what are called monetary Aggregates this is adding monetary Aggregates this is adding monetary Aggregates this is adding together say all the money that's on together say all the money that's on together say all the money that's on deposit in Banks and all the money deposit in Banks and all the money deposit in Banks and all the money that's believed to be circulating in that's believed to be circulating in that's believed to be circulating in people's wallets and you also have to people's wallets and you also have to people's wallets and you also have to really go back in time you know we don't really go back in time you know we don't really go back in time you know we don't have credit cards um there is a stock have credit cards um there is a stock have credit cards um there is a stock market but it's tiny in terms of the market but it's tiny in terms of the market but it's tiny in terms of the number of people who invest there aren't number of people who invest there aren't number of people who invest there aren't mutual mutual mutual funds uh you know like when Travelers funds uh you know like when Travelers funds uh you know like when Travelers check checks are introduced this is like check checks are introduced this is like check checks are introduced this is like a big deal um so we have a much a very a big deal um so we have a much a very a big deal um so we have a much a very simple monetary system and so um shorts simple monetary system and so um shorts simple monetary system and so um shorts and and Milton Freeman start measuring and and Milton Freeman start measuring and and Milton Freeman start measuring what they call the monetary Aggregates what they call the monetary Aggregates what they call the monetary Aggregates they focus on M1 and M2 and their they focus on M1 and M2 and their they focus on M1 and M2 and their favorite aggregate is M2 which I believe favorite aggregate is M2 which I believe favorite aggregate is M2 which I believe is encompassing sort of deposits and is encompassing sort of deposits and is encompassing sort of deposits and circulating medium the other thing to circulating medium the other thing to circulating medium the other thing to recall it there's some fine distinctions recall it there's some fine distinctions recall it there's some fine distinctions between between between um uh money in savings accounts and um uh money in savings accounts and um uh money in savings accounts and money in checkings accounts and money in money in checkings accounts and money in money in checkings accounts and money in savings accounts can earn interest and savings accounts can earn interest and savings accounts can earn interest and is generally believed not to circulate is generally believed not to circulate is generally believed not to circulate or money in checking accounts does not or money in checking accounts does not or money in checking accounts does not at that time bear interest and cannot at that time bear interest and cannot at that time bear interest and cannot legally bear interest and so is thought legally bear interest and so is thought legally bear interest and so is thought of is circulating and then there's of is circulating and then there's of is circulating and then there's different institutional architectures of different institutional architectures of different institutional architectures of postal Savings Banks and Credit Unions postal Savings Banks and Credit Unions postal Savings Banks and Credit Unions so but fredman is one taking the focus so but fredman is one taking the focus so but fredman is one taking the focus to these aggregate amounts of money and to these aggregate amounts of money and to these aggregate amounts of money and saying um these really have a lot to do saying um these really have a lot to do saying um these really have a lot to do with economic booms and busts when we

with economic booms and busts when we with economic booms and busts when we have an expansion in the amount of have an expansion in the amount of have an expansion in the amount of available money we see an expansion in available money we see an expansion in available money we see an expansion in economic activity when we have a economic activity when we have a economic activity when we have a contraction in available money we have a contraction in available money we have a contraction in available money we have a contraction and so he says at this stage contraction and so he says at this stage contraction and so he says at this stage the government through the mechanism of the government through the mechanism of the government through the mechanism of the Federal Reserve and its influence on the Federal Reserve and its influence on the Federal Reserve and its influence on interest rates can either make money interest rates can either make money interest rates can either make money more cheaply available and more freely more cheaply available and more freely more cheaply available and more freely available in the economy or can make available in the economy or can make available in the economy or can make money more expensive and slow things money more expensive and slow things money more expensive and slow things down but the the central core idea of down but the the central core idea of down but the the central core idea of monetarism is this is potentially very monetarism is this is potentially very monetarism is this is potentially very bad if the government can hit the gas bad if the government can hit the gas bad if the government can hit the gas and then hit the break and hit the gas and then hit the break and hit the gas and then hit the break and hit the gas and hit the break based on say what a and hit the break based on say what a and hit the break based on say what a politician wants or what somebody the politician wants or what somebody the politician wants or what somebody the Federal Reserve wants you have a lot of Federal Reserve wants you have a lot of Federal Reserve wants you have a lot of instability in the system and so instability in the system and so instability in the system and so one of the core policy proposals of one of the core policy proposals of one of the core policy proposals of monetarism is let's grow the money monetarism is let's grow the money monetarism is let's grow the money supply at a steady rate and in the supply at a steady rate and in the supply at a steady rate and in the beginning fredman just says K percent he beginning fredman just says K percent he beginning fredman just says K percent he doesn't even put a number on it because doesn't even put a number on it because doesn't even put a number on it because he says the number doesn't matter what he says the number doesn't matter what he says the number doesn't matter what matters is the steadiness in the growth matters is the steadiness in the growth matters is the steadiness in the growth rate because if it's a steady growth rate because if it's a steady growth rate because if it's a steady growth rate it will fade away and then people rate it will fade away and then people rate it will fade away and then people will make economic decisions based on will make economic decisions based on will make economic decisions based on the the the fundamentals not based on what they fundamentals not based on what they fundamentals not based on what they think is going to happen not based on think is going to happen not based on think is going to happen not based on hedging against inflation or hedging hedging against inflation or hedging hedging against inflation or hedging against deflation they'll just be able

against deflation they'll just be able against deflation they'll just be able to function so this is sort of the to function so this is sort of the to function so this is sort of the Paradox of monetary policy when it's Paradox of monetary policy when it's Paradox of monetary policy when it's happening right you don't see it you happening right you don't see it you happening right you don't see it you don't notice it when it's happening don't notice it when it's happening don't notice it when it's happening wrong fredman argues it can just wrong fredman argues it can just wrong fredman argues it can just fundamentally destabilize everything it fundamentally destabilize everything it fundamentally destabilize everything it can cause a Great Depression can cause can cause a Great Depression can cause can cause a Great Depression can cause an artificial boom and so he's taking an artificial boom and so he's taking an artificial boom and so he's taking monetary policy at a time when most monetary policy at a time when most monetary policy at a time when most economists think it's completely economists think it's completely economists think it's completely irrelevant and saying this is the irrelevant and saying this is the irrelevant and saying this is the central game of the economy now we live central game of the economy now we live central game of the economy now we live in a world where we believe this and the in a world where we believe this and the in a world where we believe this and the Federal Reserve chair can't open their Federal Reserve chair can't open their Federal Reserve chair can't open their mouth without headlines being generated mouth without headlines being generated mouth without headlines being generated m fredman is saying this at a time when m fredman is saying this at a time when m fredman is saying this at a time when the Federal Reserve is like a mysterious the Federal Reserve is like a mysterious the Federal Reserve is like a mysterious and secretive organization it's not and secretive organization it's not and secretive organization it's not welln it's not deeply appreciated some welln it's not deeply appreciated some welln it's not deeply appreciated some of the only people who appreciate the of the only people who appreciate the of the only people who appreciate the fed's power are like hardcore rural fed's power are like hardcore rural fed's power are like hardcore rural populace um who have constituents you populace um who have constituents you populace um who have constituents you know who think the banks and money power know who think the banks and money power know who think the banks and money power are the problem who are like you know are the problem who are like you know are the problem who are like you know Throwbacks from the frontier days so Throwbacks from the frontier days so Throwbacks from the frontier days so fredman in the beginning has no fredman in the beginning has no fredman in the beginning has no constituency for this policy he has no constituency for this policy he has no constituency for this policy he has no constituency for this analysis and so constituency for this analysis and so constituency for this analysis and so just going back to summarize monetarism just going back to summarize monetarism just going back to summarize monetarism it's looking it's using the quantity it's looking it's using the quantity it's looking it's using the quantity theory of money to analyze the theory of money to analyze the theory of money to analyze the macroeconomy it's proposing a policy of macroeconomy it's proposing a policy of macroeconomy it's proposing a policy of slow and steady growth in the money slow and steady growth in the money slow and steady growth in the money supply supply supply and then it is arguing that inflationary and then it is arguing that inflationary and then it is arguing that inflationary episodes when they emerge are profoundly

episodes when they emerge are profoundly episodes when they emerge are profoundly driven by changes in the money supply driven by changes in the money supply driven by changes in the money supply not by anything else I mean and going not by anything else I mean and going not by anything else I mean and going even up a level as we even up a level as we even up a level as we started how epic is it to uh develop started how epic is it to uh develop started how epic is it to uh develop this idea to hold this idea and then to this idea to hold this idea and then to this idea to hold this idea and then to convince the United States of this idea convince the United States of this idea convince the United States of this idea that money matters uh that today we that money matters uh that today we that money matters uh that today we believe is mostly believe is mostly believe is mostly correct uh for now yeah and so like just correct uh for now yeah and so like just correct uh for now yeah and so like just this idea that goes against the experts this idea that goes against the experts this idea that goes against the experts and then eventually wins out and drives and then eventually wins out and drives and then eventually wins out and drives so much of the economy the biggest the so much of the economy the biggest the so much of the economy the biggest the most powerful economy in the world so most powerful economy in the world so most powerful economy in the world so fascinating yeah so I mean that's a fascinating yeah so I mean that's a fascinating yeah so I mean that's a fascinating story and so what happens is fascinating story and so what happens is fascinating story and so what happens is fredman has advanced all these ideas fredman has advanced all these ideas fredman has advanced all these ideas he's Royal the economics profession he's he's Royal the economics profession he's he's Royal the economics profession he's built a political profile and and then built a political profile and and then built a political profile and and then he becomes the head of the American he becomes the head of the American he becomes the head of the American economics Association and he is asked in economics Association and he is asked in economics Association and he is asked in that role to give a presidential address that role to give a presidential address that role to give a presidential address and so he gives his presidential address and so he gives his presidential address and so he gives his presidential address December December December 1967 and he says um I'm going to talk 1967 and he says um I'm going to talk 1967 and he says um I'm going to talk about inflation and I'm going to talk about inflation and I'm going to talk about inflation and I'm going to talk about the tradeoff between inflation and about the tradeoff between inflation and about the tradeoff between inflation and unemployment and this is what's unemployment and this is what's unemployment and this is what's generally known as the Phillips curve generally known as the Phillips curve generally known as the Phillips curve and the Philips curve in its original and the Philips curve in its original and the Philips curve in its original form is derived of post World War II form is derived of post World War II form is derived of post World War II data so it's derived of about 12 years data so it's derived of about 12 years data so it's derived of about 12 years of data and it shows that when inflation of data and it shows that when inflation of data and it shows that when inflation goes up unemployment goes down and the

goes up unemployment goes down and the goes up unemployment goes down and the idea you know would make sense that as idea you know would make sense that as idea you know would make sense that as the economy is heating up and lots of the economy is heating up and lots of the economy is heating up and lots of things are happening more and more things are happening more and more things are happening more and more people are getting hired and so this people are getting hired and so this people are getting hired and so this relationship has led policy makers to relationship has led policy makers to relationship has led policy makers to think that sometimes inflation is good think that sometimes inflation is good think that sometimes inflation is good and if you want to lower unemployment and if you want to lower unemployment and if you want to lower unemployment you could let you could let you could let inflation kind of go a little bit and in inflation kind of go a little bit and in inflation kind of go a little bit and in the crude forms it becomes to seem like the crude forms it becomes to seem like the crude forms it becomes to seem like a menu like you could take your model a menu like you could take your model a menu like you could take your model and you could plug in I want this much and you could plug in I want this much and you could plug in I want this much unemployment and it would say well great unemployment and it would say well great unemployment and it would say well great this is how much inflation you should do this is how much inflation you should do this is how much inflation you should do and so then you would Target that and so then you would Target that and so then you would Target that inflation rate so Freeman gets up and he inflation rate so Freeman gets up and he inflation rate so Freeman gets up and he says this is wrong this might work in says this is wrong this might work in says this is wrong this might work in the short term but it's not going to the short term but it's not going to the short term but it's not going to work in the long term because in the work in the long term because in the work in the long term because in the long term inflation has first of all it long term inflation has first of all it long term inflation has first of all it has a momentum of its own once it gets has a momentum of its own once it gets has a momentum of its own once it gets going going going it tends to build on itself the it tends to build on itself the it tends to build on itself the accelerationist thesis it accelerates accelerationist thesis it accelerates accelerationist thesis it accelerates and once inflation gets and once inflation gets and once inflation gets going it and the reason it gets going is going it and the reason it gets going is going it and the reason it gets going is because um you know workers go to the because um you know workers go to the because um you know workers go to the store and they see the price level is store and they see the price level is store and they see the price level is gone up things have cost more they asked gone up things have cost more they asked gone up things have cost more they asked for the wages to go up then um you know for the wages to go up then um you know for the wages to go up then um you know people eventually the wages will go up people eventually the wages will go up people eventually the wages will go up too high and they will no longer be too high and they will no longer be too high and they will no longer be hirable or companies will decide at hirable or companies will decide at hirable or companies will decide at these high wages I can't high as many these high wages I can't high as many these high wages I can't high as many workers I'd better lay off so if workers I'd better lay off so if workers I'd better lay off so if inflation keeps going eventually over inflation keeps going eventually over inflation keeps going eventually over the long term it will result in high the long term it will result in high the long term it will result in high unemployment so he says theoretically unemployment so he says theoretically unemployment so he says theoretically you could end up in a situation where

you could end up in a situation where you could end up in a situation where you have high inflation and high you have high inflation and high you have high inflation and high unemployment this hasn't been seen but unemployment this hasn't been seen but unemployment this hasn't been seen but he says theoretically this could happen he says theoretically this could happen he says theoretically this could happen and then he goes and he says and the and then he goes and he says and the and then he goes and he says and the government has started expanding the government has started expanding the government has started expanding the money supply started expanding the money money supply started expanding the money money supply started expanding the money supply in 1966 so we're going to get a supply in 1966 so we're going to get a supply in 1966 so we're going to get a bunch of inflation and then we're going bunch of inflation and then we're going bunch of inflation and then we're going to get a bunch of unemployment and he he to get a bunch of unemployment and he he to get a bunch of unemployment and he he estimates about how long it will take estimates about how long it will take estimates about how long it will take and then he says once this all happens and then he says once this all happens and then he says once this all happens it will take about 20 years to get back it will take about 20 years to get back it will take about 20 years to get back to normal and and he predicts the to normal and and he predicts the to normal and and he predicts the stagflation of the 1970s stagflation of stagflation of the 1970s stagflation of stagflation of the 1970s stagflation of the gangster is that for an economist do the gangster is that for an economist do the gangster is that for an economist do that again against the the mainstream that again against the the mainstream that again against the the mainstream belief represented by the Philips curve belief represented by the Philips curve belief represented by the Philips curve yeah and what's really what really makes yeah and what's really what really makes yeah and what's really what really makes it happen is that many of the economists it happen is that many of the economists it happen is that many of the economists who most deeply dislike fredman and most who most deeply dislike fredman and most who most deeply dislike fredman and most deeply dislike his politics in the 1970s deeply dislike his politics in the 1970s deeply dislike his politics in the 1970s as as they're running their models they as as they're running their models they as as they're running their models they start to say fredman's right they start start to say fredman's right they start start to say fredman's right they start to see in the data that he's right and a to see in the data that he's right and a to see in the data that he's right and a very parallel process happens in Britain very parallel process happens in Britain very parallel process happens in Britain Britain is going through a very similar Britain is going through a very similar Britain is going through a very similar of burst of spending burst of inflation of burst of spending burst of inflation of burst of spending burst of inflation and so Freedman is Vindicated in this and so Freedman is Vindicated in this and so Freedman is Vindicated in this very profound way in the way that he very profound way in the way that he very profound way in the way that he himself said would be the ultimate himself said would be the ultimate himself said would be the ultimate Vindication which is my theory should Vindication which is my theory should Vindication which is my theory should predict so that prediction of predict so that prediction of predict so that prediction of stagflation is really the sort of final stagflation is really the sort of final stagflation is really the sort of final breakthrough of his ideas and also you breakthrough of his ideas and also you breakthrough of his ideas and also you know their importance to policy um and know their importance to policy um and know their importance to policy um and to thinking about how we should to thinking about how we should to thinking about how we should intervene or not in the economy and what

intervene or not in the economy and what intervene or not in the economy and what the role of the Federal Reserve is the role of the Federal Reserve is the role of the Federal Reserve is because he's saying the Federal Reserve because he's saying the Federal Reserve because he's saying the Federal Reserve is incredibly powerful and finally is incredibly powerful and finally is incredibly powerful and finally people start to believe him and I don't people start to believe him and I don't people start to believe him and I don't know if we said but to to make clear know if we said but to to make clear know if we said but to to make clear stack infation means high unemployment stack infation means high unemployment stack infation means high unemployment and high inflation which is a thing like and high inflation which is a thing like and high inflation which is a thing like you mentioned has not was not seen you mentioned has not was not seen you mentioned has not was not seen before and he predicted accurately and before and he predicted accurately and before and he predicted accurately and it also disproves the sort of the the it also disproves the sort of the the it also disproves the sort of the the relationship the inverse relationship relationship the inverse relationship relationship the inverse relationship between um unemployment and inflation between um unemployment and inflation between um unemployment and inflation yeah now I should say the Philips curve yeah now I should say the Philips curve yeah now I should say the Philips curve is still out there it's been is still out there it's been is still out there it's been expectations augmented and it is expectations augmented and it is expectations augmented and it is relevant in the short term but fredman's relevant in the short term but fredman's relevant in the short term but fredman's warning is still very much apt that if warning is still very much apt that if warning is still very much apt that if you get too focused on unemployment you you get too focused on unemployment you you get too focused on unemployment you can let inflation out of the bag and so can let inflation out of the bag and so can let inflation out of the bag and so until very recently the Federal Reserve until very recently the Federal Reserve until very recently the Federal Reserve tradition has been focusing on inflation tradition has been focusing on inflation tradition has been focusing on inflation believing that's fundamental and that believing that's fundamental and that believing that's fundamental and that will keep unemployment low rather than will keep unemployment low rather than will keep unemployment low rather than trying to lower unemployment at the cost trying to lower unemployment at the cost trying to lower unemployment at the cost of raising inflation can we go back to of raising inflation can we go back to of raising inflation can we go back to uh Frank Knight and the big picture uh Frank Knight and the big picture uh Frank Knight and the big picture thing we started with which is the thing we started with which is the thing we started with which is the justification of capitalism yes so as justification of capitalism yes so as justification of capitalism yes so as you mentioned Milton Freedom search for you mentioned Milton Freedom search for you mentioned Milton Freedom search for a moral justification of capitalism a moral justification of capitalism a moral justification of capitalism Frank Knight was um a big influence on Frank Knight was um a big influence on Frank Knight was um a big influence on Milton Friedman and including on this Milton Friedman and including on this Milton Friedman and including on this topic of understanding the moral topic of understanding the moral topic of understanding the moral justification of capitalism I I think justification of capitalism I I think justification of capitalism I I think you spoke about ni's case for capitalism you spoke about ni's case for capitalism you spoke about ni's case for capitalism was grounded in the idea that the

was grounded in the idea that the was grounded in the idea that the ability to act in the face of ability to act in the face of ability to act in the face of uncertainty creates profit and it should uncertainty creates profit and it should uncertainty creates profit and it should because taking risks should be rewarded because taking risks should be rewarded because taking risks should be rewarded so like this idea that taking risks in so like this idea that taking risks in so like this idea that taking risks in the face of uncertainty should create the face of uncertainty should create the face of uncertainty should create profit and that becomes a profit and that becomes a profit and that becomes a justification that it the the ethic of justification that it the the ethic of justification that it the the ethic of capitalism can you just speak to that capitalism can you just speak to that capitalism can you just speak to that yeah so Knight is talking about where yeah so Knight is talking about where yeah so Knight is talking about where does profit come from and to his mind it does profit come from and to his mind it does profit come from and to his mind it comes from the entrepreneurial function comes from the entrepreneurial function comes from the entrepreneurial function and the risk-taking function and so he and the risk-taking function and so he and the risk-taking function and so he kind of weaves that into why you know kind of weaves that into why you know kind of weaves that into why you know capitalism works works best and why it's capitalism works works best and why it's capitalism works works best and why it's the most effective allocation machine the most effective allocation machine the most effective allocation machine and why it it assigns responsibility in and why it it assigns responsibility in and why it it assigns responsibility in a way he believes that a socialist a way he believes that a socialist a way he believes that a socialist system never could now night though is system never could now night though is system never could now night though is not a booster of capitalism he could be not a booster of capitalism he could be not a booster of capitalism he could be in part because he's just a Darkly in part because he's just a Darkly in part because he's just a Darkly pessimistic kind of depressive guy and pessimistic kind of depressive guy and pessimistic kind of depressive guy and so he's afraid capitalism is going to so he's afraid capitalism is going to so he's afraid capitalism is going to collapse and Socialism or fascism is collapse and Socialism or fascism is collapse and Socialism or fascism is going to take over or communism and so going to take over or communism and so going to take over or communism and so he kind of descends Into Darkness there he kind of descends Into Darkness there he kind of descends Into Darkness there fredman as as the more Optimist believes fredman as as the more Optimist believes fredman as as the more Optimist believes with Hayek that you can develop a with Hayek that you can develop a with Hayek that you can develop a different approach to capitalism that different approach to capitalism that different approach to capitalism that would preserve the price system preserve would preserve the price system preserve would preserve the price system preserve allocation but build in Social supports allocation but build in Social supports allocation but build in Social supports build in a social minimum things like build in a social minimum things like build in a social minimum things like this but there's a moment in his career this but there's a moment in his career this but there's a moment in his career where he's really struggling to figure where he's really struggling to figure where he's really struggling to figure out like how do I make this case for out like how do I make this case for out like how do I make this case for capitalism and basically uh the whole capitalism and basically uh the whole capitalism and basically uh the whole sort of conservative movement or people sort of conservative movement or people sort of conservative movement or people who we later call the conservative who we later call the conservative who we later call the conservative movement are struggling to make this movement are struggling to make this movement are struggling to make this case and he starts thinking about what

case and he starts thinking about what case and he starts thinking about what makes capitalism work is that if you put makes capitalism work is that if you put makes capitalism work is that if you put forth effort you get a reward so then forth effort you get a reward so then forth effort you get a reward so then you could say well people get what they you could say well people get what they you could say well people get what they deserve under capitalism but then he deserve under capitalism but then he deserve under capitalism but then he kind of stops and he says that's not kind of stops and he says that's not kind of stops and he says that's not really true because we're born with such really true because we're born with such really true because we're born with such different endowments and there's a huge different endowments and there's a huge different endowments and there's a huge quotient of luck right so some people quotient of luck right so some people quotient of luck right so some people are just in the right position and some are just in the right position and some are just in the right position and some people aren't so if I say capitalism is people aren't so if I say capitalism is people aren't so if I say capitalism is moral because people get what they moral because people get what they moral because people get what they deserve that's not really true and he deserve that's not really true and he deserve that's not really true and he also kind of has like a an ethical also kind of has like a an ethical also kind of has like a an ethical reaction which he ends up calling like reaction which he ends up calling like reaction which he ends up calling like an aesthetic reaction he's he's kind of an aesthetic reaction he's he's kind of an aesthetic reaction he's he's kind of like it just doesn't feel right to say like it just doesn't feel right to say like it just doesn't feel right to say that and so he struggles for a while that and so he struggles for a while that and so he struggles for a while with like what do I say and then he with like what do I say and then he with like what do I say and then he basically says capitalism it can't be basically says capitalism it can't be basically says capitalism it can't be the core discipline the market can't be the core discipline the market can't be the core discipline the market can't be the core to your ethics it has to be the core to your ethics it has to be the core to your ethics it has to be something else so that's when he will something else so that's when he will something else so that's when he will decide it's Freedom it's individual decide it's Freedom it's individual decide it's Freedom it's individual Freedom that's really the ethical core Freedom that's really the ethical core Freedom that's really the ethical core and capitalism makes individual Freedom and capitalism makes individual Freedom and capitalism makes individual Freedom possible because capitalism is dedicated possible because capitalism is dedicated possible because capitalism is dedicated to maximizing that and so the defense of to maximizing that and so the defense of to maximizing that and so the defense of capitalism comes through freedom and at capitalism comes through freedom and at capitalism comes through freedom and at his stage in history he's able to set his stage in history he's able to set his stage in history he's able to set aside nice worry about inequality and aside nice worry about inequality and aside nice worry about inequality and say when I look at the data and this is say when I look at the data and this is say when I look at the data and this is true for the macro data true for the macro data true for the macro data Century incomes are actually converging Century incomes are actually converging Century incomes are actually converging right and it also if you look right and it also if you look right and it also if you look historically if a country goes from say historically if a country goes from say historically if a country goes from say a more feudal agrarian society to a more a more feudal agrarian society to a more a more feudal agrarian society to a more market-based Society incomes will market-based Society incomes will market-based Society incomes will converge now then they might start to converge now then they might start to converge now then they might start to diverge but fredman's in the moment when

diverge but fredman's in the moment when diverge but fredman's in the moment when he's seeing the convergence and so he's seeing the convergence and so he's seeing the convergence and so that's what he's really focused on so he that's what he's really focused on so he that's what he's really focused on so he believes he can justify capitalism believes he can justify capitalism believes he can justify capitalism through the ethic of freedom and he also through the ethic of freedom and he also through the ethic of freedom and he also believes that believes that believes that inequality um is a problem that can be inequality um is a problem that can be inequality um is a problem that can be addressed through specific policies and addressed through specific policies and addressed through specific policies and it's not a fundamental feature of it's not a fundamental feature of it's not a fundamental feature of capitalism in other words he doesn't see capitalism in other words he doesn't see capitalism in other words he doesn't see capitalism as an engine of inequality capitalism as an engine of inequality capitalism as an engine of inequality the way that Frank Knight did and the the way that Frank Knight did and the the way that Frank Knight did and the way that you know maybe some Critics on way that you know maybe some Critics on way that you know maybe some Critics on the left would how did he conceive a the left would how did he conceive a the left would how did he conceive a freedom so individual Freedom economic freedom so individual Freedom economic freedom so individual Freedom economic freedom political Freedom civil Freedom freedom political Freedom civil Freedom freedom political Freedom civil Freedom what was the tension the dynamic between what was the tension the dynamic between what was the tension the dynamic between those different freedoms for him so he those different freedoms for him so he those different freedoms for him so he really begins focusing on economic really begins focusing on economic really begins focusing on economic freedom and he says it's really freedom and he says it's really freedom and he says it's really important to focus on economic freedom important to focus on economic freedom important to focus on economic freedom because in the United States we don't because in the United States we don't because in the United States we don't value it enough so by economic freedom value it enough so by economic freedom value it enough so by economic freedom he means the ability to um keep what he means the ability to um keep what he means the ability to um keep what you've earned um the ability to make you've earned um the ability to make you've earned um the ability to make decisions about your business the the decisions about your business the the decisions about your business the the ability to make decisions about the work ability to make decisions about the work ability to make decisions about the work that you do so this will translate into that you do so this will translate into that you do so this will translate into things like um there shouldn't be a things like um there shouldn't be a things like um there shouldn't be a minimum wage he believes the minimum minimum wage he believes the minimum minimum wage he believes the minimum wage has bad social effects but he also wage has bad social effects but he also wage has bad social effects but he also believes you should be free to accept a believes you should be free to accept a believes you should be free to accept a job at a wage that you yourself have job at a wage that you yourself have job at a wage that you yourself have determined is acceptable to you um and determined is acceptable to you um and determined is acceptable to you um and there should be very minimal regulation there should be very minimal regulation there should be very minimal regulation questions around safety and other things questions around safety and other things questions around safety and other things because the market will ultimately if because the market will ultimately if because the market will ultimately if you create an unsafe product it won't you create an unsafe product it won't you create an unsafe product it won't sell and that will be that's sort of sell and that will be that's sort of sell and that will be that's sort of your incentive so so he he really your incentive so so he he really your incentive so so he he really centers economic freedom because he centers economic freedom because he centers economic freedom because he thinks especially and he's really

thinks especially and he's really thinks especially and he's really speaking from his vantage point in the speaking from his vantage point in the speaking from his vantage point in the universities and speaking to the kind of universities and speaking to the kind of universities and speaking to the kind of liberal consensus of the 50s and 60s he liberal consensus of the 50s and 60s he liberal consensus of the 50s and 60s he thinks economic freedom has been thinks economic freedom has been thinks economic freedom has been undervalued in the American context so undervalued in the American context so undervalued in the American context so he really wants to push that forward he really wants to push that forward he really wants to push that forward he's really kind of taking political he's really kind of taking political he's really kind of taking political freedom for granted freedom for granted freedom for granted now later in his career when he becomes now later in his career when he becomes now later in his career when he becomes famous he's traveling the world he famous he's traveling the world he famous he's traveling the world he spends time in Chile and this country is spends time in Chile and this country is spends time in Chile and this country is now being ruled by a dictator uh gustu P now being ruled by a dictator uh gustu P now being ruled by a dictator uh gustu P who starts introducing economic freedom who starts introducing economic freedom who starts introducing economic freedom but there's no political freedom and but there's no political freedom and but there's no political freedom and Milton Freedman believes eventually Milton Freedman believes eventually Milton Freedman believes eventually these two things are going to go these two things are going to go these two things are going to go together he tells P you've got economic together he tells P you've got economic together he tells P you've got economic freedom and eventually it's going to freedom and eventually it's going to freedom and eventually it's going to bring it's going to mean political bring it's going to mean political bring it's going to mean political Freedom p is like okay fine not really Freedom p is like okay fine not really Freedom p is like okay fine not really interested in that I want to know what I interested in that I want to know what I interested in that I want to know what I should do about inflation should do about inflation should do about inflation but then when Milton Freeman leaves but then when Milton Freeman leaves but then when Milton Freeman leaves Chile he is attacked and vilified for Chile he is attacked and vilified for Chile he is attacked and vilified for having been a supporter he's is having been a supporter he's is having been a supporter he's is interpreted that he's a supporter of the interpreted that he's a supporter of the interpreted that he's a supporter of the regime which he's not but he realizes he regime which he's not but he realizes he regime which he's not but he realizes he has talked too much about economic has talked too much about economic has talked too much about economic freedom and he hasn't talked enough freedom and he hasn't talked enough freedom and he hasn't talked enough about political freedom and he's kind of about political freedom and he's kind of about political freedom and he's kind of assumed political freedom because he's assumed political freedom because he's assumed political freedom because he's come from the American context so then come from the American context so then come from the American context so then he starts recalibrating them and saying he starts recalibrating them and saying he starts recalibrating them and saying you know what if you don't have you know what if you don't have you know what if you don't have political Freedom you're never going to political Freedom you're never going to political Freedom you're never going to be able to hold on to economic freedom be able to hold on to economic freedom be able to hold on to economic freedom so he sees that they need to go together so he sees that they need to go together so he sees that they need to go together and they don't naturally go together and and they don't naturally go together and and they don't naturally go together and so he starts to become more clear in so he starts to become more clear in so he starts to become more clear in talking about political Freedom now talking about political Freedom now talking about political Freedom now let's fast forward to the end of his let's fast forward to the end of his let's fast forward to the end of his life and he's witnessing the emergence life and he's witnessing the emergence life and he's witnessing the emergence of what we call the Asian tigers so of what we call the Asian tigers so of what we call the Asian tigers so capitalist economies that are doing very

capitalist economies that are doing very capitalist economies that are doing very well but they don't have political well but they don't have political well but they don't have political freedom but then he observes they don't freedom but then he observes they don't freedom but then he observes they don't have political freedom and that you have political freedom and that you have political freedom and that you can't vote in a free and fair election can't vote in a free and fair election can't vote in a free and fair election but they also don't have a statti they but they also don't have a statti they but they also don't have a statti they don't have a KGB they're not you know don't have a KGB they're not you know don't have a KGB they're not you know hauling people off for their wrong hauling people off for their wrong hauling people off for their wrong opinions so then he says they have opinions so then he says they have opinions so then he says they have something called Civic freedom and so he something called Civic freedom and so he something called Civic freedom and so he kind of defines this third sphere Civic kind of defines this third sphere Civic kind of defines this third sphere Civic freedom of you know debate discussion freedom of you know debate discussion freedom of you know debate discussion interpersonal relations but you can't be interpersonal relations but you can't be interpersonal relations but you can't be political political political so this is a late in life addition I so this is a late in life addition I so this is a late in life addition I don't think it's fully theorized I think don't think it's fully theorized I think don't think it's fully theorized I think what it shows is that during the Cold what it shows is that during the Cold what it shows is that during the Cold War he very much believed economic and War he very much believed economic and War he very much believed economic and political Freedom you know capitalism political Freedom you know capitalism political Freedom you know capitalism and freedom democracy and freedom democracy and freedom democracy the United States capitalism this all the United States capitalism this all the United States capitalism this all went together and he starts to see at went together and he starts to see at went together and he starts to see at the end of his life the emergence of the end of his life the emergence of the end of his life the emergence of different social systems that are using different social systems that are using different social systems that are using market trading and allocation but aren't market trading and allocation but aren't market trading and allocation but aren't giving people similar freedoms and he's giving people similar freedoms and he's giving people similar freedoms and he's kind of puzzling over that now he always kind of puzzling over that now he always kind of puzzling over that now he always believes that China will democratize and believes that China will democratize and believes that China will democratize and he thinks China's on the path to he thinks China's on the path to he thinks China's on the path to democratization in part because Chile democratization in part because Chile democratization in part because Chile does democratize eventually p is voted does democratize eventually p is voted does democratize eventually p is voted out and it's become a democratic out and it's become a democratic out and it's become a democratic capitalist and very prosperous country capitalist and very prosperous country capitalist and very prosperous country and he thinks that's exactly what's and he thinks that's exactly what's and he thinks that's exactly what's happening in China he sees tenanan and happening in China he sees tenanan and happening in China he sees tenanan and he doesn't live long enough to get to he doesn't live long enough to get to he doesn't live long enough to get to where we are now in which doesn't look where we are now in which doesn't look where we are now in which doesn't look like political or Civic freedom is like political or Civic freedom is like political or Civic freedom is coming to China anytime soon and he did coming to China anytime soon and he did coming to China anytime soon and he did oppose the Dual track system of China oppose the Dual track system of China oppose the Dual track system of China meaning like the market is bottom up the

meaning like the market is bottom up the meaning like the market is bottom up the government in China is top down and you government in China is top down and you government in China is top down and you can't have both he thought you couldn't can't have both he thought you couldn't can't have both he thought you couldn't have both yeah he thought eventually the have both yeah he thought eventually the have both yeah he thought eventually the market would Triumph well it's a really market would Triumph well it's a really market would Triumph well it's a really powerful idea say okay maybe there's not powerful idea say okay maybe there's not powerful idea say okay maybe there's not political freedom but just hold on to political freedom but just hold on to political freedom but just hold on to the economic freedom and eventually the economic freedom and eventually the economic freedom and eventually that's going to give political freedom that's going to give political freedom that's going to give political freedom is that is that correct to say like is that is that correct to say like is that is that correct to say like start to work on the economic freedom start to work on the economic freedom start to work on the economic freedom and the political Freedom peace will and the political Freedom peace will and the political Freedom peace will take care of itself that's what he take care of itself that's what he take care of itself that's what he believed that's what he believed yeah I believed that's what he believed yeah I believed that's what he believed yeah I think it's it's more complicated than think it's it's more complicated than think it's it's more complicated than that right the the people who gain out that right the the people who gain out that right the the people who gain out of a system of economic freedom could of a system of economic freedom could of a system of economic freedom could decide to collude in a system where decide to collude in a system where decide to collude in a system where there isn't political Freedom um that's there isn't political Freedom um that's there isn't political Freedom um that's certainly a scenario certainly a scenario certainly a scenario so but but that that was again that's so but but that that was again that's so but but that that was again that's that core idea of freedom right and that that core idea of freedom right and that that core idea of freedom right and that core belief that people want freedom uh core belief that people want freedom uh core belief that people want freedom uh and that people are drawn to Freedom and that people are drawn to Freedom and that people are drawn to Freedom just to go back to Frank Knight a little just to go back to Frank Knight a little just to go back to Frank Knight a little bit he wrote an essay called the ethics bit he wrote an essay called the ethics bit he wrote an essay called the ethics of competition the metaphor that of competition the metaphor that of competition the metaphor that economic life is a game and then maybe economic life is a game and then maybe economic life is a game and then maybe that extends the society as a whole like that extends the society as a whole like that extends the society as a whole like the entirety of it is a competitive game the entirety of it is a competitive game the entirety of it is a competitive game and and and uh and Milton Freeman I think adapted uh and Milton Freeman I think adapted uh and Milton Freeman I think adapted some of this appreciated some of this as some of this appreciated some of this as some of this appreciated some of this as can you speak to this metaphor yeah I can you speak to this metaphor yeah I can you speak to this metaphor yeah I think what the metaphor of the game does think what the metaphor of the game does think what the metaphor of the game does is it asks you okay well what are the is it asks you okay well what are the is it asks you okay well what are the rules then um and let's focus on the rules then um and let's focus on the rules then um and let's focus on the rules that keep the game going so he rules that keep the game going so he rules that keep the game going so he didn't use the concept of an infinite didn't use the concept of an infinite didn't use the concept of an infinite game but I think that's an interesting game but I think that's an interesting game but I think that's an interesting one you know a game that all the players one you know a game that all the players one you know a game that all the players are in and keep going again and again

are in and keep going again and again are in and keep going again and again and again and so that helped Knight and again and so that helped Knight and again and so that helped Knight along with along with along with hyek shift hyek shift hyek shift from the allocation question who's from the allocation question who's from the allocation question who's getting what is are things allocated getting what is are things allocated getting what is are things allocated Fair Fair Fair to the more structural question of like to the more structural question of like to the more structural question of like what are the rules of the game that we what are the rules of the game that we what are the rules of the game that we need to keep this system going and so need to keep this system going and so need to keep this system going and so for a while that led to the discussion for a while that led to the discussion for a while that led to the discussion of Monopoly well we need rules against of Monopoly well we need rules against of Monopoly well we need rules against concentration um or we need the rule of concentration um or we need the rule of concentration um or we need the rule of law um everyone needs to be treated law um everyone needs to be treated law um everyone needs to be treated equally people need to know what um you equally people need to know what um you equally people need to know what um you know what they're up against and then know what they're up against and then know what they're up against and then going back to monetarism the core of going back to monetarism the core of going back to monetarism the core of monetarism is a rule Freeman called it a monetarism is a rule Freeman called it a monetarism is a rule Freeman called it a monetary growth Rule and so again what monetary growth Rule and so again what monetary growth Rule and so again what keeps the economic game going is a rule keeps the economic game going is a rule keeps the economic game going is a rule about how much the money grows that about how much the money grows that about how much the money grows that everybody knows nobody's guessing everybody knows nobody's guessing everybody knows nobody's guessing nobody's changing the rules to help nobody's changing the rules to help nobody's changing the rules to help their side or to help you know the their side or to help you know the their side or to help you know the people they're friendly with we all know people they're friendly with we all know people they're friendly with we all know it's there it's clear it's easy and so it's there it's clear it's easy and so it's there it's clear it's easy and so that emphasis on rules I think really that emphasis on rules I think really that emphasis on rules I think really has a through line it goes into highx has a through line it goes into highx has a through line it goes into highx competitive order and then it goes into competitive order and then it goes into competitive order and then it goes into the monetary growth Rule and then you the monetary growth Rule and then you the monetary growth Rule and then you know know know today monetary policy makes use of today monetary policy makes use of today monetary policy makes use of monetary policy rules we have not monetary policy rules we have not monetary policy rules we have not abandoned discretion but rules are used abandoned discretion but rules are used abandoned discretion but rules are used as a heuristic or a check and those come as a heuristic or a check and those come as a heuristic or a check and those come out of freedman's thinking and so um out of freedman's thinking and so um out of freedman's thinking and so um it's something it's it's really profound

it's something it's it's really profound it's something it's it's really profound and it was always counterposed to and it was always counterposed to and it was always counterposed to discretion which Freedman worried would discretion which Freedman worried would discretion which Freedman worried would be subject to capture or political be subject to capture or political be subject to capture or political corruption if you had discretion in corruption if you had discretion in corruption if you had discretion in policymaking if you had discretion in policymaking if you had discretion in policymaking if you had discretion in these very big areas um then people these very big areas um then people these very big areas um then people would stop competing against each other would stop competing against each other would stop competing against each other in a market and they would turn their in a market and they would turn their in a market and they would turn their attention to getting control of the attention to getting control of the attention to getting control of the rules or the rul makers so if there's rules or the rul makers so if there's rules or the rul makers so if there's clear transparent clear transparent clear transparent rules then you're free to play the game rules then you're free to play the game rules then you're free to play the game yes exactly but then depending on the yes exactly but then depending on the yes exactly but then depending on the rules the the game can turn out the rules the the game can turn out the rules the the game can turn out the equilibrium that it arrives at might be equilibrium that it arrives at might be equilibrium that it arrives at might be different right so that that's speaks to different right so that that's speaks to different right so that that's speaks to the the mechanism design the design of the the mechanism design the design of the the mechanism design the design of the rules yeah and that was again to go the rules yeah and that was again to go the rules yeah and that was again to go back to the idea back to the idea back to the idea separating new liberalism or separating new liberalism or separating new liberalism or neoliberalism from Classical liberalism neoliberalism from Classical liberalism neoliberalism from Classical liberalism was more of a focus on what are the was more of a focus on what are the was more of a focus on what are the rules that are needed what is the rules that are needed what is the rules that are needed what is the competitive order that we want to set competitive order that we want to set competitive order that we want to set out how do we design in Social out how do we design in Social out how do we design in Social safeguards um how do we think about it safeguards um how do we think about it safeguards um how do we think about it and so that shift towards monetary and so that shift towards monetary and so that shift towards monetary policy and focusing on stable monetary policy and focusing on stable monetary policy and focusing on stable monetary growth that becomes really important in growth that becomes really important in growth that becomes really important in the post 70s era the post 70s era the post 70s era is one of the basic rules of how is one of the basic rules of how is one of the basic rules of how capitalist economy should function and capitalist economy should function and capitalist economy should function and it becomes really important because I it becomes really important because I it becomes really important because I see the example of say countries most see the example of say countries most see the example of say countries most notably in Latin America where monetary notably in Latin America where monetary notably in Latin America where monetary rules weren't followed and different rules weren't followed and different rules weren't followed and different governments played politics with their governments played politics with their governments played politics with their currencies and that created huge

currencies and that created huge currencies and that created huge upheaval and huge social loss economic upheaval and huge social loss economic upheaval and huge social loss economic loss just economic disaster so uh my loss just economic disaster so uh my loss just economic disaster so uh my friend Liv she's a poker player friend Liv she's a poker player friend Liv she's a poker player philosopher of sorts great human being philosopher of sorts great human being philosopher of sorts great human being she has a podcast called win-win that she has a podcast called win-win that she has a podcast called win-win that everybody should listen to and uh the everybody should listen to and uh the everybody should listen to and uh the whole purpose of the podcast and her whole purpose of the podcast and her whole purpose of the podcast and her whole way of being in spirit is to find whole way of being in spirit is to find whole way of being in spirit is to find win-win Solutions so do you think of win-win Solutions so do you think of win-win Solutions so do you think of economic life as having such win-win economic life as having such win-win economic life as having such win-win Solutions so being able to find rules Solutions so being able to find rules Solutions so being able to find rules where everybody wins or is it always where everybody wins or is it always where everybody wins or is it always going to be zero some I definitely going to be zero some I definitely going to be zero some I definitely believe in win-win but with a big believe in win-win but with a big believe in win-win but with a big asteris like you can have win-win asteris like you can have win-win asteris like you can have win-win but it can feel like win lose which is but it can feel like win lose which is but it can feel like win lose which is it's not just are people getting more it it's not just are people getting more it it's not just are people getting more it has a lot to do with do people feel has a lot to do with do people feel has a lot to do with do people feel they're getting more and do people feel they're getting more and do people feel they're getting more and do people feel they're getting what's fair and equal so they're getting what's fair and equal so they're getting what's fair and equal so you could have a you could have a you could have a situation um you know for instance if situation um you know for instance if situation um you know for instance if you look at the history of going back to you look at the history of going back to you look at the history of going back to Chile it has steady growth steady income Chile it has steady growth steady income Chile it has steady growth steady income growth steady dimunition of inequality growth steady dimunition of inequality growth steady dimunition of inequality and a high level of discontent within and a high level of discontent within and a high level of discontent within the society and a high level of belief the society and a high level of belief the society and a high level of belief that the society is corrupt and unfair that the society is corrupt and unfair that the society is corrupt and unfair and that's what matters how people feel and that's what matters how people feel and that's what matters how people feel about it how people perceive it matters about it how people perceive it matters about it how people perceive it matters and you can't you know we saw this and you can't you know we saw this and you can't you know we saw this recently you can't just come out with a recently you can't just come out with a recently you can't just come out with a bunch of statistics and tell people bunch of statistics and tell people bunch of statistics and tell people you're winning in this game if they feel you're winning in this game if they feel you're winning in this game if they feel like they're losing so that goes to all

like they're losing so that goes to all like they're losing so that goes to all the nonrational factors and all the the nonrational factors and all the the nonrational factors and all the comparative um factors that people have comparative um factors that people have comparative um factors that people have when they think about where they are when they think about where they are when they think about where they are Visa other people in society so we're Visa other people in society so we're Visa other people in society so we're just incredibly social creatures we're just incredibly social creatures we're just incredibly social creatures we're incredibly attuned to our status to incredibly attuned to our status to incredibly attuned to our status to rising and falling to where we sit Visa rising and falling to where we sit Visa rising and falling to where we sit Visa others and so that absolutely has to be others and so that absolutely has to be others and so that absolutely has to be attended to it can't just be an economic attended to it can't just be an economic attended to it can't just be an economic analysis that's so interesting that the analysis that's so interesting that the analysis that's so interesting that the experience of the economy is different experience of the economy is different experience of the economy is different than the reality of the economy you know than the reality of the economy you know than the reality of the economy you know on the topic of on the topic of on the topic of corruption I think the reality of corruption I think the reality of corruption I think the reality of corruption versus the the perception of corruption versus the the perception of corruption versus the the perception of corruption is is really important in a corruption is is really important in a corruption is is really important in a lot of these nations you take Ukraine lot of these nations you take Ukraine lot of these nations you take Ukraine for example the perception of corruption for example the perception of corruption for example the perception of corruption has a big impact on the economy you has a big impact on the economy you has a big impact on the economy you don't want to invest you you're very don't want to invest you you're very don't want to invest you you're very cautious as a business person the cautious as a business person the cautious as a business person the reality of corruption could be way reality of corruption could be way reality of corruption could be way different than the actual perception but different than the actual perception but different than the actual perception but if narratives take hold it uh it's a if narratives take hold it uh it's a if narratives take hold it uh it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that it has a self-fulfilling prophecy that it has a self-fulfilling prophecy that it has a big effect on the the psychology of the big effect on the the psychology of the big effect on the the psychology of the people involved it's interesting yeah I people involved it's interesting yeah I people involved it's interesting yeah I mean this goes back to K's analysis of mean this goes back to K's analysis of mean this goes back to K's analysis of the Great Depression right if people the Great Depression right if people the Great Depression right if people won't invest if they're spooked if the won't invest if they're spooked if the won't invest if they're spooked if the investing classes are investing classes are investing classes are spooked you could be in real trouble and spooked you could be in real trouble and spooked you could be in real trouble and in some ways the simple analysis of the in some ways the simple analysis of the in some ways the simple analysis of the problem and proposal of a solution was problem and proposal of a solution was problem and proposal of a solution was enough to enough to enough to restore um eventually the path to restore um eventually the path to restore um eventually the path to economic Prosperity right that's economic Prosperity right that's economic Prosperity right that's Franklin Roosevelt nothing to fear but Franklin Roosevelt nothing to fear but Franklin Roosevelt nothing to fear but fear itself you know the sense of we fear itself you know the sense of we fear itself you know the sense of we know we have a future we have optimism

know we have a future we have optimism know we have a future we have optimism then you believe in it and to go back to then you believe in it and to go back to then you believe in it and to go back to like thinking about money right money like thinking about money right money like thinking about money right money works because we all believe in it works because we all believe in it works because we all believe in it you know it's it's a form of social you know it's it's a form of social you know it's it's a form of social trust and it's a it's a form of belief trust and it's a it's a form of belief trust and it's a it's a form of belief and faith in our society and in the and faith in our society and in the and faith in our society and in the other people in it and when that breaks other people in it and when that breaks other people in it and when that breaks down the money system will break down as down the money system will break down as down the money system will break down as well is there something that Milton well is there something that Milton well is there something that Milton fredman said and thought about you know fredman said and thought about you know fredman said and thought about you know how to control the psychology of humans how to control the psychology of humans how to control the psychology of humans at scale no I mean it what's interesting at scale no I mean it what's interesting at scale no I mean it what's interesting is he does talk especially in his later is he does talk especially in his later is he does talk especially in his later work he says we have fiat currency and work he says we have fiat currency and work he says we have fiat currency and this is an experiment you know and don't this is an experiment you know and don't this is an experiment you know and don't know how it's going to turn out and it's know how it's going to turn out and it's know how it's going to turn out and it's turning out okay right now but we've turning out okay right now but we've turning out okay right now but we've always had a commodity B based or backed always had a commodity B based or backed always had a commodity B based or backed currency of some form or another and currency of some form or another and currency of some form or another and this is the first time and so so who this is the first time and so so who this is the first time and so so who really knows so far so good um and he really knows so far so good um and he really knows so far so good um and he also is very attuned it's interesting in also is very attuned it's interesting in also is very attuned it's interesting in his later writings when he's thinking his later writings when he's thinking his later writings when he's thinking about this to sure I could design a about this to sure I could design a about this to sure I could design a monetary system that would be different monetary system that would be different monetary system that would be different but when I look at history I see that but when I look at history I see that but when I look at history I see that monetary systems have always say monetary systems have always say monetary systems have always say Incorporated the role of the state um Incorporated the role of the state um Incorporated the role of the state um because it's so important to people and because it's so important to people and because it's so important to people and so therefore my theoretical designs so therefore my theoretical designs so therefore my theoretical designs really have to be tempered by what I've really have to be tempered by what I've really have to be tempered by what I've actually seen happen in history so maybe actually seen happen in history so maybe actually seen happen in history so maybe we could speak to this tension between we could speak to this tension between we could speak to this tension between how much government intervention is okay how much government intervention is okay how much government intervention is okay for Milton freed so he was against for Milton freed so he was against for Milton freed so he was against minimum wage but he was for guaranteed minimum wage but he was for guaranteed minimum wage but he was for guaranteed minimum income can you explain actually minimum income can you explain actually minimum income can you explain actually the difference between the two yeah so

the difference between the two yeah so the difference between the two yeah so this was one of the discoveries I made this was one of the discoveries I made this was one of the discoveries I made in my research I found a paper from 1938 in my research I found a paper from 1938 in my research I found a paper from 1938 he wrote advocating what we would call he wrote advocating what we would call he wrote advocating what we would call today a universal basic income a minimum today a universal basic income a minimum today a universal basic income a minimum income and he basically sees this as income and he basically sees this as income and he basically sees this as part of the effort to create a new part of the effort to create a new part of the effort to create a new liberalism right and he basically says liberalism right and he basically says liberalism right and he basically says we have advanced societies we have we have advanced societies we have we have advanced societies we have prosperous societies we have decided in prosperous societies we have decided in prosperous societies we have decided in keeping with our morals and our ethics keeping with our morals and our ethics keeping with our morals and our ethics that people should not be starving in an that people should not be starving in an that people should not be starving in an advanced Society like this the question advanced Society like this the question advanced Society like this the question is how are we going to make that happen is how are we going to make that happen is how are we going to make that happen and he ended up believing the best thing and he ended up believing the best thing and he ended up believing the best thing to do was to put a floor under everybody to do was to put a floor under everybody to do was to put a floor under everybody and he said you can get that based on and he said you can get that based on and he said you can get that based on your income if you have a lot of income your income if you have a lot of income your income if you have a lot of income you don't get it if you have a little you don't get it if you have a little you don't get it if you have a little income you might get a little bit of it income you might get a little bit of it income you might get a little bit of it if you have no income you get enough of if you have no income you get enough of if you have no income you get enough of it and he believed in the beginning you it and he believed in the beginning you it and he believed in the beginning you should base that on you know what was should base that on you know what was should base that on you know what was required to buy food right that that required to buy food right that that required to buy food right that that would be kind of an objective you could would be kind of an objective you could would be kind of an objective you could objectively determine the nutrition and objectively determine the nutrition and objectively determine the nutrition and the price of food and so that for him the price of food and so that for him the price of food and so that for him it's important he says it's keeping with it's important he says it's keeping with it's important he says it's keeping with a liberal polity because it's not a liberal polity because it's not a liberal polity because it's not intervening in the price system it's not intervening in the price system it's not intervening in the price system it's not intervening in economic relations and it intervening in economic relations and it intervening in economic relations and it does not in his view require a does not in his view require a does not in his view require a bureaucracy to administer it is not in bureaucracy to administer it is not in bureaucracy to administer it is not in his view require that you qualify for it his view require that you qualify for it his view require that you qualify for it by virtue of being in a protected class by virtue of being in a protected class by virtue of being in a protected class you just get it as kind of part of your you just get it as kind of part of your you just get it as kind of part of your membership in this General citizenship membership in this General citizenship membership in this General citizenship body and so that did him was really body and so that did him was really body and so that did him was really different than a minimum wage because it

different than a minimum wage because it different than a minimum wage because it did not interfere with did not interfere with did not interfere with the work bargain his belief about the work bargain his belief about the work bargain his belief about minimum wages was specifically that it minimum wages was specifically that it minimum wages was specifically that it priced out unskilled labor that what an priced out unskilled labor that what an priced out unskilled labor that what an unskilled laborer had to offer was the unskilled laborer had to offer was the unskilled laborer had to offer was the willingness to work for a very low wage willingness to work for a very low wage willingness to work for a very low wage and if you set the minimum wage too high and if you set the minimum wage too high and if you set the minimum wage too high businesses instead of hiring that higher businesses instead of hiring that higher businesses instead of hiring that higher pric labor would not hire or like we pric labor would not hire or like we pric labor would not hire or like we could think of today right they put an could think of today right they put an could think of today right they put an electronic checkout you know or electronic checkout you know or electronic checkout you know or something like this where you don't something like this where you don't something like this where you don't actually need the labor so he really actually need the labor so he really actually need the labor so he really believed the minimum wage had that per believed the minimum wage had that per believed the minimum wage had that per verse incentive now there's this is a verse incentive now there's this is a verse incentive now there's this is a live debate on what minimum wages do and live debate on what minimum wages do and live debate on what minimum wages do and there seems to be a level at which you there seems to be a level at which you there seems to be a level at which you can set them that they can not have that can set them that they can not have that can set them that they can not have that perverse effect and in fact can kind of perverse effect and in fact can kind of perverse effect and in fact can kind of create people with more spending money create people with more spending money create people with more spending money that then Powers the economy so he had a that then Powers the economy so he had a that then Powers the economy so he had a a very sort of clinical analysis of that a very sort of clinical analysis of that a very sort of clinical analysis of that uh rather than an empirical one or a uh rather than an empirical one or a uh rather than an empirical one or a really abstract analysis but the the really abstract analysis but the the really abstract analysis but the the minimum income is fascinating because it minimum income is fascinating because it minimum income is fascinating because it seems very leftist to us but what it is seems very leftist to us but what it is seems very leftist to us but what it is is it's is it's is it's purely purely purely individualistic and it it never really individualistic and it it never really individualistic and it it never really happened because it was so purely happened because it was so purely happened because it was so purely individualistic because American social individualistic because American social individualistic because American social policy T typically identifies like this policy T typically identifies like this policy T typically identifies like this group of people is deserving and we'll group of people is deserving and we'll group of people is deserving and we'll give them benefits so the classic give them benefits so the classic give them benefits so the classic example is soldiers veterans another example is soldiers veterans another example is soldiers veterans another example is Mothers raising dependent example is Mothers raising dependent example is Mothers raising dependent children these people deserve money the children these people deserve money the children these people deserve money the rest of you you better go out and work rest of you you better go out and work rest of you you better go out and work and so fredman's proposal it really

and so fredman's proposal it really and so fredman's proposal it really caught on in the 60s It ultimately went caught on in the 60s It ultimately went caught on in the 60s It ultimately went nowh but it was no litmus test um no nowh but it was no litmus test um no nowh but it was no litmus test um no income analysis just we're going to give income analysis just we're going to give income analysis just we're going to give you this much everyone's going to get you this much everyone's going to get you this much everyone's going to get this much and he decided once Mass this much and he decided once Mass this much and he decided once Mass taxation had come in you could do it taxation had come in you could do it taxation had come in you could do it through taxes and you could just rebate through taxes and you could just rebate through taxes and you could just rebate people who didn't pay income taxes got a people who didn't pay income taxes got a people who didn't pay income taxes got a rebate that actually came to pass it's rebate that actually came to pass it's rebate that actually came to pass it's the earned income tax credit and it's the earned income tax credit and it's the earned income tax credit and it's considered extremely successful you know considered extremely successful you know considered extremely successful you know by policy analyst it does what it's by policy analyst it does what it's by policy analyst it does what it's supposed to do it's not that expensive supposed to do it's not that expensive supposed to do it's not that expensive and so I see that as a kind of paradigm and so I see that as a kind of paradigm and so I see that as a kind of paradigm of his thinking in that instead of of his thinking in that instead of of his thinking in that instead of creating a bureaucracy that does some creating a bureaucracy that does some creating a bureaucracy that does some form of redistribution or instead of form of redistribution or instead of form of redistribution or instead of trying to intervene in the market for trying to intervene in the market for trying to intervene in the market for labor or the market for something else labor or the market for something else labor or the market for something else the market for housing you provide a the market for housing you provide a the market for housing you provide a cash grant that people spend for cash grant that people spend for cash grant that people spend for themselves and so interestingly that's themselves and so interestingly that's themselves and so interestingly that's what happened in the emergency situation what happened in the emergency situation what happened in the emergency situation of Co right that's exactly what people of Co right that's exactly what people of Co right that's exactly what people did they follow that model we just get did they follow that model we just get did they follow that model we just get money out quick and there's a lot of money out quick and there's a lot of money out quick and there's a lot of disc still about Ubi is something that disc still about Ubi is something that disc still about Ubi is something that should be done and I think it's always should be done and I think it's always should be done and I think it's always going to be hard to pull off because I going to be hard to pull off because I going to be hard to pull off because I think Americans and their elected think Americans and their elected think Americans and their elected representatives don't want to provide a representatives don't want to provide a representatives don't want to provide a universal benefit they want to provide a universal benefit they want to provide a universal benefit they want to provide a targeted benefit because they believe targeted benefit because they believe targeted benefit because they believe there's like a moral component here and there's like a moral component here and there's like a moral component here and fredman advanced a policy that was fredman advanced a policy that was fredman advanced a policy that was really really really abstract and really just you know kind abstract and really just you know kind abstract and really just you know kind of it was devoid of judgment it was like of it was devoid of judgment it was like of it was devoid of judgment it was like pure and beautiful in that way but like

pure and beautiful in that way but like pure and beautiful in that way but like utterly impractical and and it really utterly impractical and and it really utterly impractical and and it really focused on not interfering with the focused on not interfering with the focused on not interfering with the market and the signals that the market market and the signals that the market market and the signals that the market provides like it was really against provides like it was really against provides like it was really against price controls the kind of Reason yeah price controls the kind of Reason yeah price controls the kind of Reason yeah exactly and you could say okay but how exactly and you could say okay but how exactly and you could say okay but how does this not interfere with the market does this not interfere with the market does this not interfere with the market right if you provide people with a right if you provide people with a right if you provide people with a minimum income won't that change their minimum income won't that change their minimum income won't that change their incentives to work etc I mean there's a incentives to work etc I mean there's a incentives to work etc I mean there's a big body of research on this most of it big body of research on this most of it big body of research on this most of it seems to show um one it's way better seems to show um one it's way better seems to show um one it's way better than the current benefits Cliff where than the current benefits Cliff where than the current benefits Cliff where you have to not work to get your you have to not work to get your you have to not work to get your benefits benefits benefits um and any incentive impact on working um and any incentive impact on working um and any incentive impact on working seems to be much lower than than would seems to be much lower than than would seems to be much lower than than would be expected but I'll let the uh you know be expected but I'll let the uh you know be expected but I'll let the uh you know the economists and the social scientist the economists and the social scientist the economists and the social scientist fight that one out and figure it out fight that one out and figure it out fight that one out and figure it out empirically hopefully we should be able empirically hopefully we should be able empirically hopefully we should be able to yeah there's been a bunch of studies to yeah there's been a bunch of studies to yeah there's been a bunch of studies it's interesting even just how you it's interesting even just how you it's interesting even just how you conduct studies like this how you do conduct studies like this how you do conduct studies like this how you do these kinds of experiments especially if these kinds of experiments especially if these kinds of experiments especially if you're empirically minded you know CU you're empirically minded you know CU you're empirically minded you know CU these a lot of the studies I saw are these a lot of the studies I saw are these a lot of the studies I saw are pretty small right and so how do you pretty small right and so how do you pretty small right and so how do you make big conclusions about um about how make big conclusions about um about how make big conclusions about um about how to run the world how to run economies to run the world how to run economies to run the world how to run economies from such small studies it's all a from such small studies it's all a from such small studies it's all a fascinating experiment of fascinating experiment of fascinating experiment of ideas and it's also inspiring to see ideas and it's also inspiring to see ideas and it's also inspiring to see individuals and maybe small groups of individuals and maybe small groups of individuals and maybe small groups of individuals like The Chicago School of individuals like The Chicago School of individuals like The Chicago School of Economics to sort of shake up what we Economics to sort of shake up what we Economics to sort of shake up what we believe and how we run the world yeah believe and how we run the world yeah believe and how we run the world yeah inspiring yeah you call Milton fredman

inspiring yeah you call Milton fredman inspiring yeah you call Milton fredman the last great conservative um maybe to be a little bit conservative um maybe to be a little bit sort of controversial and make bold sort of controversial and make bold sort of controversial and make bold statements that get everybody excited statements that get everybody excited statements that get everybody excited but uh what do you mean by that and what but uh what do you mean by that and what but uh what do you mean by that and what makes a great conservative so I was makes a great conservative so I was makes a great conservative so I was really thinking of that in terms of kind really thinking of that in terms of kind really thinking of that in terms of kind of American political identities and of American political identities and of American political identities and particularly the 20th century particularly the 20th century particularly the 20th century conservative movement which you know conservative movement which you know conservative movement which you know people are always saying this isn't people are always saying this isn't people are always saying this isn't conservatism and I yes in America conservatism and I yes in America conservatism and I yes in America conserv ism is different it looks conserv ism is different it looks conserv ism is different it looks different it feels different different it feels different different it feels different conservatism in America builds in a big conservatism in America builds in a big conservatism in America builds in a big component of what we could call component of what we could call component of what we could call libertarianism Pro libertarianism Pro libertarianism Pro capitalism anti-government ideas and and capitalism anti-government ideas and and capitalism anti-government ideas and and you know critics will say but you know critics will say but you know critics will say but conservatism is about conserving conservatism is about conserving conservatism is about conserving institutions and practices and it has a institutions and practices and it has a institutions and practices and it has a role for the state and an organic role for the state and an organic role for the state and an organic Community but in the United States it's Community but in the United States it's Community but in the United States it's always had since the 20th century this always had since the 20th century this always had since the 20th century this also this anti-statist also this anti-statist also this anti-statist um let's let the Market rip let's not um let's let the Market rip let's not um let's let the Market rip let's not worry about what the market does to worry about what the market does to worry about what the market does to establish Traditions the market is our establish Traditions the market is our establish Traditions the market is our tradition capitalism is our tradition so tradition capitalism is our tradition so tradition capitalism is our tradition so that was really that was really that was really synthesized you know many people were synthesized you know many people were synthesized you know many people were there but fredman and the importance of there but fredman and the importance of there but fredman and the importance of his books um freed to choose capitalism his books um freed to choose capitalism his books um freed to choose capitalism and Freedom the television series he did and Freedom the television series he did and Freedom the television series he did all of these were like core components all of these were like core components all of these were like core components of this American conservative synthesis of this American conservative synthesis of this American conservative synthesis as it evolved and I really see that as as it evolved and I really see that as as it evolved and I really see that as having broken down it it is having broken down it it is having broken down it it is is scattered into different pieces and

is scattered into different pieces and is scattered into different pieces and we don't know where they're going to we don't know where they're going to we don't know where they're going to come back together again but you know come back together again but you know come back together again but you know fredman's push for open Global markets fredman's push for open Global markets fredman's push for open Global markets unfettered free trade that's getting unfettered free trade that's getting unfettered free trade that's getting push back on both the left and the right push back on both the left and the right push back on both the left and the right um you know that I think is just a major um you know that I think is just a major um you know that I think is just a major sign that you know both parties have sign that you know both parties have sign that you know both parties have turned away from this Vision I don't turned away from this Vision I don't turned away from this Vision I don't know what they've turned to um but the know what they've turned to um but the know what they've turned to um but the way that fredman brought these pieces way that fredman brought these pieces way that fredman brought these pieces together I think that political moment together I think that political moment together I think that political moment is passed so that's what I was trying to is passed so that's what I was trying to is passed so that's what I was trying to talk about um with the book title talk about um with the book title talk about um with the book title there's another way though in which I there's another way though in which I there's another way though in which I think of him also as a conservative think of him also as a conservative think of him also as a conservative which is that within the field of which is that within the field of which is that within the field of Economics he went back to this older Economics he went back to this older Economics he went back to this older idea the quantity theory of money and idea the quantity theory of money and idea the quantity theory of money and said this still has value this can be said this still has value this can be said this still has value this can be applied in the modern day it is applied in the modern day it is applied in the modern day it is something to teach us and he you know something to teach us and he you know something to teach us and he you know pushed back against this trend towards pushed back against this trend towards pushed back against this trend towards mathematization so he kept writing books mathematization so he kept writing books mathematization so he kept writing books he can still pick up a Freedman book and he can still pick up a Freedman book and he can still pick up a Freedman book and read it you know where's of Economics read it you know where's of Economics read it you know where's of Economics articles and output it's like unreadable articles and output it's like unreadable articles and output it's like unreadable unless you're in the field and so I unless you're in the field and so I unless you're in the field and so I think in that way he was trying to think in that way he was trying to think in that way he was trying to conserve conserve conserve methodologically and intellectually the methodologically and intellectually the methodologically and intellectually the traditions of the field the work that he traditions of the field the work that he traditions of the field the work that he and particularly Anna Schwarz did that and particularly Anna Schwarz did that and particularly Anna Schwarz did that literal recounting of things and deep literal recounting of things and deep literal recounting of things and deep analysis of data from the field that was analysis of data from the field that was analysis of data from the field that was like completely unfashionable and it's like completely unfashionable and it's like completely unfashionable and it's time now we've sort of gone back to it time now we've sort of gone back to it time now we've sort of gone back to it with big data and with computers but he with big data and with computers but he with big data and with computers but he helped bring that forward and preserve helped bring that forward and preserve helped bring that forward and preserve that tradition so I think of him him that tradition so I think of him him that tradition so I think of him him kind of intellectually as a conservative

kind of intellectually as a conservative kind of intellectually as a conservative if you think of the mode of his thought if you think of the mode of his thought if you think of the mode of his thought and so I mean what makes a great and so I mean what makes a great and so I mean what makes a great conservative is one who takes those conservative is one who takes those conservative is one who takes those older ideas and makes them fresh for a older ideas and makes them fresh for a older ideas and makes them fresh for a new time period I think that's new time period I think that's new time period I think that's exactly what he did you've also spoken exactly what he did you've also spoken exactly what he did you've also spoken about the fact about the fact about the fact that the times when he was sort of out that the times when he was sort of out that the times when he was sort of out in public the there was more of an open in public the there was more of an open in public the there was more of an open Battle of ideas where conservatism often Battle of ideas where conservatism often Battle of ideas where conservatism often had you know William F Buckley he had a had you know William F Buckley he had a had you know William F Buckley he had a more uh more uh more uh vibrant deep debate over ideas where it vibrant deep debate over ideas where it vibrant deep debate over ideas where it seems less deep now I mean that is the seems less deep now I mean that is the seems less deep now I mean that is the thing that it's hard especially like for thing that it's hard especially like for thing that it's hard especially like for you know for the students I teach today you know for the students I teach today you know for the students I teach today to be like you know there were arguments to be like you know there were arguments to be like you know there were arguments about ideas and conservatives won a about ideas and conservatives won a about ideas and conservatives won a bunch of them you know and that happened bunch of them you know and that happened bunch of them you know and that happened in the' 70s late 1960s to 1970s when in the' 70s late 1960s to 1970s when in the' 70s late 1960s to 1970s when they you know one set of arguments was they you know one set of arguments was they you know one set of arguments was about economics like okay this idea of about economics like okay this idea of about economics like okay this idea of stimulating the economy by spending more stimulating the economy by spending more stimulating the economy by spending more it has a downside the downside is called it has a downside the downside is called it has a downside the downside is called inflation um and the downside is called inflation um and the downside is called inflation um and the downside is called too much regulation and you know you too much regulation and you know you too much regulation and you know you you've gone too far in kind of bottling you've gone too far in kind of bottling you've gone too far in kind of bottling up the actual sources of economic growth up the actual sources of economic growth up the actual sources of economic growth and dynamism and we have to let those and dynamism and we have to let those and dynamism and we have to let those free um in social policy there was also free um in social policy there was also free um in social policy there was also a critique you know the the Great a critique you know the the Great a critique you know the the Great Society had all these ways of ideas of Society had all these ways of ideas of Society had all these ways of ideas of ending poverty and you know people came ending poverty and you know people came ending poverty and you know people came and analyze them and said the programs and analyze them and said the programs and analyze them and said the programs aren't helping in some ways you've

aren't helping in some ways you've aren't helping in some ways you've actually created engines to trap people actually created engines to trap people actually created engines to trap people in poverty because you've given them a in poverty because you've given them a in poverty because you've given them a benefit and said if they actually start benefit and said if they actually start benefit and said if they actually start to work they lose the benefit you you to work they lose the benefit you you to work they lose the benefit you you created these these all these perverse created these these all these perverse created these these all these perverse incentives and these ideas were fought incentives and these ideas were fought incentives and these ideas were fought out they were empirical they were out they were empirical they were out they were empirical they were controversial um and they were based on controversial um and they were based on controversial um and they were based on really deep research and really deep really deep research and really deep really deep research and really deep argumentation and so um it seems that argumentation and so um it seems that argumentation and so um it seems that era has passed it seems like we're era has passed it seems like we're era has passed it seems like we're driven much more more driven much more more driven much more more quickly um by moods rather than thought quickly um by moods rather than thought quickly um by moods rather than thought through ideas right now it seems like through ideas right now it seems like through ideas right now it seems like the ideas come after the they follow the the ideas come after the they follow the the ideas come after the they follow the political mood and try to put together political mood and try to put together political mood and try to put together the underpinning of it where it really the underpinning of it where it really the underpinning of it where it really was the opposite for much of the 20th was the opposite for much of the 20th was the opposite for much of the 20th century it does seem like we lead with century it does seem like we lead with century it does seem like we lead with emotional turmoil right and the ideas emotional turmoil right and the ideas emotional turmoil right and the ideas follow versus lead with the ideas and follow versus lead with the ideas and follow versus lead with the ideas and the sort of the the emotion of the the sort of the the emotion of the the sort of the the emotion of the masses respond right exactly so if we masses respond right exactly so if we masses respond right exactly so if we think of the evolution of conservative think of the evolution of conservative think of the evolution of conservative ISM it was a whole set of ideas that was ISM it was a whole set of ideas that was ISM it was a whole set of ideas that was crafted refined the 1950s 1960s 1970s crafted refined the 1950s 1960s 1970s crafted refined the 1950s 1960s 1970s sort of really found their emotional sort of really found their emotional sort of really found their emotional standard Bearer translator salesperson standard Bearer translator salesperson standard Bearer translator salesperson in Ronald Reagan who incidentally had in Ronald Reagan who incidentally had in Ronald Reagan who incidentally had been following these ideas as they been following these ideas as they been following these ideas as they developed and had been honing his developed and had been honing his developed and had been honing his ability to express them and apply them ability to express them and apply them ability to express them and apply them politically you know it's a very politically you know it's a very politically you know it's a very opposite if we look at Trump as the opposite if we look at Trump as the opposite if we look at Trump as the political definer of the era you know political definer of the era you know political definer of the era you know there's a set of ideas but it was more there's a set of ideas but it was more there's a set of ideas but it was more attitudes impulses Vibes and the ideas

attitudes impulses Vibes and the ideas attitudes impulses Vibes and the ideas are coming after that trying to figure are coming after that trying to figure are coming after that trying to figure out how they patch on so um it's it's out how they patch on so um it's it's out how they patch on so um it's it's interesting to watch to see that interesting to watch to see that interesting to watch to see that difference and I Hazard that a lot of it difference and I Hazard that a lot of it difference and I Hazard that a lot of it just has to do with the immediacy of the just has to do with the immediacy of the just has to do with the immediacy of the media environment we're in and it's just media environment we're in and it's just media environment we're in and it's just power of the media messages to get out power of the media messages to get out power of the media messages to get out so so so fast what do you think Milt Freeman fast what do you think Milt Freeman fast what do you think Milt Freeman would say about Donald Trump would say about Donald Trump would say about Donald Trump about uh him winning in about uh him winning in about uh him winning in 2024 and just in general this political 2024 and just in general this political 2024 and just in general this political moment I think he would love Doge I moment I think he would love Doge I moment I think he would love Doge I think that's you know goes without I think that's you know goes without I think that's you know goes without I think he would focus on that part think he would focus on that part think he would focus on that part because I think he would I think he because I think he would I think he because I think he would I think he would really love it he would be very would really love it he would be very would really love it he would be very alarmed by the idea of tariffs and very alarmed by the idea of tariffs and very alarmed by the idea of tariffs and very alarmed by the return to protectionism I alarmed by the return to protectionism I alarmed by the return to protectionism I mean I think he believed that part of mean I think he believed that part of mean I think he believed that part of what made the world peaceful in the what made the world peaceful in the what made the world peaceful in the second half of the 20th century as second half of the 20th century as second half of the 20th century as opposed to you know during World War opposed to you know during World War opposed to you know during World War two was the world was knit together more two was the world was knit together more two was the world was knit together more by trade and that was the great hope by trade and that was the great hope by trade and that was the great hope that people traded with each other they that people traded with each other they that people traded with each other they wouldn't fight he was also you know a wouldn't fight he was also you know a wouldn't fight he was also you know a proponent of the free movement of proponent of the free movement of proponent of the free movement of capital you know he would absolutely capital you know he would absolutely capital you know he would absolutely oppose this idea that you know nipon oppose this idea that you know nipon oppose this idea that you know nipon steel wasn't allowed to invest in the steel wasn't allowed to invest in the steel wasn't allowed to invest in the United States you know um I think he United States you know um I think he United States you know um I think he would struggle and he wholeheartedly would struggle and he wholeheartedly would struggle and he wholeheartedly embraced Reagan and he worked to embraced Reagan and he worked to embraced Reagan and he worked to minimize the parts of the Reagan Legacy minimize the parts of the Reagan Legacy minimize the parts of the Reagan Legacy he didn't like I think he would find it he didn't like I think he would find it he didn't like I think he would find it harder to embrace Trump because he's not harder to embrace Trump because he's not harder to embrace Trump because he's not of that style and he just had a

of that style and he just had a of that style and he just had a different style but I'm guessing he different style but I'm guessing he different style but I'm guessing he would have come around through the an I would have come around through the an I would have come around through the an I think he would just say okay we have a think he would just say okay we have a think he would just say okay we have a chance to reduce the size of government chance to reduce the size of government chance to reduce the size of government at the same at the same at the same time the spending plans of the Trump time the spending plans of the Trump time the spending plans of the Trump Administration are not fiscally Administration are not fiscally Administration are not fiscally conservative in any way and that was his conservative in any way and that was his conservative in any way and that was his concern was not so much with debt but concern was not so much with debt but concern was not so much with debt but with the feeling that there's no with the feeling that there's no with the feeling that there's no mechanis is M to stop the growth of mechanis is M to stop the growth of mechanis is M to stop the growth of government that it just grows and grows government that it just grows and grows government that it just grows and grows and grows and so he ended up believing and grows and so he ended up believing and grows and so he ended up believing like even deficits aren't so bad because like even deficits aren't so bad because like even deficits aren't so bad because they make politicians cautious he they make politicians cautious he they make politicians cautious he thought about continuing to spend um but thought about continuing to spend um but thought about continuing to spend um but I have to believe he would be concerned I have to believe he would be concerned I have to believe he would be concerned about the potential threats to the US about the potential threats to the US about the potential threats to the US currency's position as the world's currency's position as the world's currency's position as the world's Reserve currency with increased levels Reserve currency with increased levels Reserve currency with increased levels of debt and spending um he was concerned of debt and spending um he was concerned of debt and spending um he was concerned about low interest rates you know in the about low interest rates you know in the about low interest rates you know in the you know he he died I think it's 200 you know he he died I think it's 200 you know he he died I think it's 200 2004 2006 but it was in the beginning he 2004 2006 but it was in the beginning he 2004 2006 but it was in the beginning he didn't see the zero low bound but he saw didn't see the zero low bound but he saw didn't see the zero low bound but he saw low interest rates and he said this low interest rates and he said this low interest rates and he said this isn't necessarily good everyone's isn't necessarily good everyone's isn't necessarily good everyone's talking about low interest rates as if talking about low interest rates as if talking about low interest rates as if they're good but there should be a a they're good but there should be a a they're good but there should be a a price on Capital there should be a price price on Capital there should be a price price on Capital there should be a price on this it shouldn't be so low and so um on this it shouldn't be so low and so um on this it shouldn't be so low and so um you know he had he had some of still the you know he had he had some of still the you know he had he had some of still the kind of macro insights that I think are kind of macro insights that I think are kind of macro insights that I think are important you wrote uh the Wall Street important you wrote uh the Wall Street important you wrote uh the Wall Street Journal essay titled how inflation ended Journal essay titled how inflation ended Journal essay titled how inflation ended neoliberalism and reelected Trump so can

neoliberalism and reelected Trump so can neoliberalism and reelected Trump so can we weave that into this discussion in we weave that into this discussion in we weave that into this discussion in terms terms terms of inflation and uh Trump what's the of inflation and uh Trump what's the of inflation and uh Trump what's the main idea of the Essa so the main idea main idea of the Essa so the main idea main idea of the Essa so the main idea is kind of looking back and saying so is kind of looking back and saying so is kind of looking back and saying so today we have been living in a world today we have been living in a world today we have been living in a world where people have been you know focused where people have been you know focused where people have been you know focused on um monetary policy on um monetary policy on um monetary policy uh steady monetary policy free trade uh steady monetary policy free trade uh steady monetary policy free trade reducing regulation this is all called reducing regulation this is all called reducing regulation this is all called the neoliberal era and my argument was a the neoliberal era and my argument was a the neoliberal era and my argument was a lot of that arose was driven by lot of that arose was driven by lot of that arose was driven by inflation so we have Milton Freeman inflation so we have Milton Freeman inflation so we have Milton Freeman predict inflation in 1967 it starts predict inflation in 1967 it starts predict inflation in 1967 it starts breaking out in the 1970s Britain and breaking out in the 1970s Britain and breaking out in the 1970s Britain and the United States and every institution the United States and every institution the United States and every institution was designed around stable prices and was designed around stable prices and was designed around stable prices and once inflation broke out prices were no once inflation broke out prices were no once inflation broke out prices were no longer stable so for example um tax longer stable so for example um tax longer stable so for example um tax rates weren't inflation adjusted so if rates weren't inflation adjusted so if rates weren't inflation adjusted so if you're um income went up because of you're um income went up because of you're um income went up because of inflation you might bump from a low tax inflation you might bump from a low tax inflation you might bump from a low tax rate to an extremely high tax rate but rate to an extremely high tax rate but rate to an extremely high tax rate but you don't actually have more money on you don't actually have more money on you don't actually have more money on paper you have more money but everything paper you have more money but everything paper you have more money but everything costs more so you don't actually have costs more so you don't actually have costs more so you don't actually have more money and your taxes have gone up more money and your taxes have gone up more money and your taxes have gone up that kicks off the taxpayer Revolt that kicks off the taxpayer Revolt that kicks off the taxpayer Revolt there's a whole shift of American there's a whole shift of American there's a whole shift of American corporations towards focusing on corporations towards focusing on corporations towards focusing on financial investments because the tax financial investments because the tax financial investments because the tax breaks they used to get for depreciation breaks they used to get for depreciation breaks they used to get for depreciation for building new factories are not for building new factories are not for building new factories are not inflation adjusted so they no longer pay inflation adjusted so they no longer pay inflation adjusted so they no longer pay off in an inflationary environment and

off in an inflationary environment and off in an inflationary environment and then when Paul vulker comes in in um then when Paul vulker comes in in um then when Paul vulker comes in in um 1980s early 1980s and starts fighting 1980s early 1980s and starts fighting 1980s early 1980s and starts fighting inflation really pushes up interest inflation really pushes up interest inflation really pushes up interest rates to bring down inflation and that rates to bring down inflation and that rates to bring down inflation and that completely reorders the banking sector completely reorders the banking sector completely reorders the banking sector because Banks had statutory legal limits because Banks had statutory legal limits because Banks had statutory legal limits on the interest they could charge and on the interest they could charge and on the interest they could charge and once General Market interest rates once General Market interest rates once General Market interest rates exceeded that this proliferation of new exceeded that this proliferation of new exceeded that this proliferation of new Financial forms to take advantage of Financial forms to take advantage of Financial forms to take advantage of that so my point was the era we live in that so my point was the era we live in that so my point was the era we live in was ushered in by was ushered in by was ushered in by inflation and then everyone turned inflation and then everyone turned inflation and then everyone turned against all the formulations we had and against all the formulations we had and against all the formulations we had and said well these have hollowed out our said well these have hollowed out our said well these have hollowed out our industrial base these have um we've got industrial base these have um we've got industrial base these have um we've got too much immigration we've got too much too much immigration we've got too much too much immigration we've got too much economic openness we need to reshore we economic openness we need to reshore we economic openness we need to reshore we need to focus we need to turn against need to focus we need to turn against need to focus we need to turn against all these things we need to spend more all these things we need to spend more all these things we need to spend more we've we've we've disinvested disinvested disinvested and the net result of that turning away and the net result of that turning away and the net result of that turning away I argued is people forgot about I argued is people forgot about I argued is people forgot about inflation they really forgot it could inflation they really forgot it could inflation they really forgot it could ever exist and you had a whole set of ever exist and you had a whole set of ever exist and you had a whole set of theories on the left modern monetary theories on the left modern monetary theories on the left modern monetary theory that basically said we don't theory that basically said we don't theory that basically said we don't really need to worry about inflation we really need to worry about inflation we really need to worry about inflation we can spend what we want and lo and behold can spend what we want and lo and behold can spend what we want and lo and behold inflation came back and so my argument inflation came back and so my argument inflation came back and so my argument is that is now open the door to the is that is now open the door to the is that is now open the door to the presidency of Donald Trump which is presidency of Donald Trump which is presidency of Donald Trump which is potentially a deeply transformative potentially a deeply transformative potentially a deeply transformative moment that will change the size and moment that will change the size and moment that will change the size and shape of government that may change our shape of government that may change our shape of government that may change our foreign policy profoundly that may

foreign policy profoundly that may foreign policy profoundly that may change our immigration policy it may change our immigration policy it may change our immigration policy it may change the demographics of our country change the demographics of our country change the demographics of our country all of that in my thesis is that has all all of that in my thesis is that has all all of that in my thesis is that has all been made possible by inflation and so been made possible by inflation and so been made possible by inflation and so the great mistake of the past years was the great mistake of the past years was the great mistake of the past years was to forget how fundamental inflation was to forget how fundamental inflation was to forget how fundamental inflation was to the rise of the last political order to the rise of the last political order to the rise of the last political order and to profoundly and to profoundly and to profoundly underestimate how much underestimate how much underestimate how much inflation would change the current inflation would change the current inflation would change the current political order so I just think it's one political order so I just think it's one political order so I just think it's one of these things this is why I think you of these things this is why I think you of these things this is why I think you should study history because I think if should study history because I think if should study history because I think if you had studied history you would be you had studied history you would be you had studied history you would be aware of this and it's so easy for aware of this and it's so easy for aware of this and it's so easy for people to forget just like the banks people to forget just like the banks people to forget just like the banks forgot that interest rates could ever go forgot that interest rates could ever go forgot that interest rates could ever go up they got so used to it and it's it's up they got so used to it and it's it's up they got so used to it and it's it's only a 10 15-year thing but to them that only a 10 15-year thing but to them that only a 10 15-year thing but to them that seems like forever so I really do seems like forever so I really do seems like forever so I really do believe what history teaches you to is believe what history teaches you to is believe what history teaches you to is just have a much vaster scope in your just have a much vaster scope in your just have a much vaster scope in your vision and then take into account the vision and then take into account the vision and then take into account the possibilities of so many things possibilities of so many things possibilities of so many things happening that are different than what's happening that are different than what's happening that are different than what's happening today and so I just hope we happening today and so I just hope we happening today and so I just hope we don't forget about inflation entirely don't forget about inflation entirely don't forget about inflation entirely but here's the thing is a quite a strong but here's the thing is a quite a strong but here's the thing is a quite a strong chance that Trump's policies will chance that Trump's policies will chance that Trump's policies will initiate even worse inflation and then initiate even worse inflation and then initiate even worse inflation and then they will prove to be his undoing so the they will prove to be his undoing so the they will prove to be his undoing so the ironies of inflation could be ironies of inflation could be ironies of inflation could be continuing like you said Milton fredman continuing like you said Milton fredman continuing like you said Milton fredman would be a big fan of Doge so if you was would be a big fan of Doge so if you was would be a big fan of Doge so if you was still here today and rolled with Elon still here today and rolled with Elon still here today and rolled with Elon Musk and um what advice would he give Musk and um what advice would he give Musk and um what advice would he give what do you think he would focus on in

what do you think he would focus on in what do you think he would focus on in terms of where to cut how to cut how to terms of where to cut how to cut how to terms of where to cut how to cut how to think about cutting you know his his think about cutting you know his his think about cutting you know his his signature policy move I talk about this signature policy move I talk about this signature policy move I talk about this is taking um the price mechanism and is taking um the price mechanism and is taking um the price mechanism and trying to make that into the policy and trying to make that into the policy and trying to make that into the policy and that seems sort of obvious to today but that seems sort of obvious to today but that seems sort of obvious to today but in the era that he came in so um there in the era that he came in so um there in the era that he came in so um there would be rent controls let's take away would be rent controls let's take away would be rent controls let's take away rent controls let's let housing prices rent controls let's let housing prices rent controls let's let housing prices set themselves or um he was very against set themselves or um he was very against set themselves or um he was very against national parks I actually think the national parks I actually think the national parks I actually think the national parks are good so I hope the national parks are good so I hope the national parks are good so I hope the Doge people don't take this up Doge people don't take this up Doge people don't take this up but that rather than an allocation to but that rather than an allocation to but that rather than an allocation to fund the national parks they should be fund the national parks they should be fund the national parks they should be funded by the revenue that they bring in funded by the revenue that they bring in funded by the revenue that they bring in when people visit them and so I think he when people visit them and so I think he when people visit them and so I think he was always looking to let's let prices was always looking to let's let prices was always looking to let's let prices make the decisions here so I think that make the decisions here so I think that make the decisions here so I think that would be one of the key pieces the other would be one of the key pieces the other would be one of the key pieces the other thing I think you'd really be thinking thing I think you'd really be thinking thing I think you'd really be thinking about he he wrote about this a lot about about he he wrote about this a lot about about he he wrote about this a lot about um occupational lure and barriers to um occupational lure and barriers to um occupational lure and barriers to entry and he felt like one of the worst entry and he felt like one of the worst entry and he felt like one of the worst things that government does um and things that government does um and things that government does um and sometimes it's private entities that do sometimes it's private entities that do sometimes it's private entities that do this is create barriers to entry to this is create barriers to entry to this is create barriers to entry to protect Industries and markets so he protect Industries and markets so he protect Industries and markets so he talked about this in the case of the talked about this in the case of the talked about this in the case of the medical profession which I think is medical profession which I think is medical profession which I think is actually not a good example because I actually not a good example because I actually not a good example because I think we all have a collective think we all have a collective think we all have a collective investment in having medical doctors be investment in having medical doctors be investment in having medical doctors be highly trained but so for instance you highly trained but so for instance you highly trained but so for instance you could look at um you know nail could look at um you know nail could look at um you know nail technicians or hair cutting there's technicians or hair cutting there's technicians or hair cutting there's often these licensing requirements or often these licensing requirements or often these licensing requirements or there's a sort of big Kur fuffle I think there's a sort of big Kur fuffle I think there's a sort of big Kur fuffle I think it's the DC passed a law that to run a it's the DC passed a law that to run a it's the DC passed a law that to run a child care center you have to have a

child care center you have to have a child care center you have to have a college degree well what does that do I college degree well what does that do I college degree well what does that do I mean that disenfranchises a whole bunch mean that disenfranchises a whole bunch mean that disenfranchises a whole bunch of wouldbe entrepreneurs who don't of wouldbe entrepreneurs who don't of wouldbe entrepreneurs who don't happen to have a college degree but happen to have a college degree but happen to have a college degree but probably could be really good at this probably could be really good at this probably could be really good at this particular business so I think he would particular business so I think he would particular business so I think he would be saying um look out for where private be saying um look out for where private be saying um look out for where private interests have used the state to protect interests have used the state to protect interests have used the state to protect themselves and clear away those types of themselves and clear away those types of themselves and clear away those types of barriers and let um competition through barriers and let um competition through barriers and let um competition through prices guide outcomes yeah so open up prices guide outcomes yeah so open up prices guide outcomes yeah so open up for more competition and allow for more for more competition and allow for more for more competition and allow for more signals from the market to drive signals from the market to drive signals from the market to drive decisions and so yes which would decisions and so yes which would decisions and so yes which would actually naturally lead to uh cutting a actually naturally lead to uh cutting a actually naturally lead to uh cutting a lot of The Bu bureaucracy of government lot of The Bu bureaucracy of government lot of The Bu bureaucracy of government I think the other thing he would I think the other thing he would I think the other thing he would probably be arguing for is again going probably be arguing for is again going probably be arguing for is again going back to the design of of the the minimum back to the design of of the the minimum back to the design of of the the minimum income or the negative income tax that income or the negative income tax that income or the negative income tax that there's a way he R and ultimately there's a way he R and ultimately there's a way he R and ultimately decided to run it through the tax system decided to run it through the tax system decided to run it through the tax system right the government's already right the government's already right the government's already collecting this data they already have collecting this data they already have collecting this data they already have your information and they can just send your information and they can just send your information and they can just send the money out through the system rather the money out through the system rather the money out through the system rather than having a social bureaucracy where than having a social bureaucracy where than having a social bureaucracy where you have to come in in person you have you have to come in in person you have you have to come in in person you have to fill out forms you have to document to fill out forms you have to document to fill out forms you have to document do you own a car what's your income who do you own a car what's your income who do you own a car what's your income who lives in the household so I think he lives in the household so I think he lives in the household so I think he would say and his analysis of that was would say and his analysis of that was would say and his analysis of that was what that who that really benefited was what that who that really benefited was what that who that really benefited was the the bureaucracy that processed that the the bureaucracy that processed that the the bureaucracy that processed that paper you know that implemented those paper you know that implemented those paper you know that implemented those norms and that if you could pull that norms and that if you could pull that norms and that if you could pull that away you could get help out where it was away you could get help out where it was away you could get help out where it was needed much quicker without having this

needed much quicker without having this needed much quicker without having this drag of people doing sort of drag of people doing sort of drag of people doing sort of unproductive work of administering these unproductive work of administering these unproductive work of administering these systems so I think trying to cut systems so I think trying to cut systems so I think trying to cut administrative overhead and what he administrative overhead and what he administrative overhead and what he didn't have then which we have now is didn't have then which we have now is didn't have then which we have now is the technology that we have and the the technology that we have and the the technology that we have and the ability you know to send benefits out ability you know to send benefits out ability you know to send benefits out via smartphone or um just to just to via smartphone or um just to just to via smartphone or um just to just to move so much faster and to handle move so much faster and to handle move so much faster and to handle information on a mass scale so much information on a mass scale so much information on a mass scale so much faster it's painful but I think one of faster it's painful but I think one of faster it's painful but I think one of the big things you can do is just that the big things you can do is just that the big things you can do is just that which is digitalize I don't know if which is digitalize I don't know if which is digitalize I don't know if that's a word but just convert that's a word but just convert that's a word but just convert everything to where the speed of signal everything to where the speed of signal everything to where the speed of signal can be can be can be instantaneous instantaneous instantaneous so uh there's no paperwork it goes so uh there's no paperwork it goes so uh there's no paperwork it goes immediately and then that means immediately and then that means immediately and then that means that uh the pricing signals and all that uh the pricing signals and all that uh the pricing signals and all these kinds of things are just these kinds of things are just these kinds of things are just immediately available to people that immediately available to people that immediately available to people that seems to be the lwh hanging fruit seems to be the lwh hanging fruit seems to be the lwh hanging fruit government you know it systems could be government you know it systems could be government you know it systems could be vastly improved him on but that would vastly improved him on but that would vastly improved him on but that would result again with a lot of um people result again with a lot of um people result again with a lot of um people getting getting getting fired and I think somebody submitted a fired and I think somebody submitted a fired and I think somebody submitted a question for me saying like question for me saying like question for me saying like where's what are your thoughts as a where's what are your thoughts as a where's what are your thoughts as a person who cares about compassion what person who cares about compassion what person who cares about compassion what are your thoughts about government are your thoughts about government are your thoughts about government employees which there's a lot of that employees which there's a lot of that employees which there's a lot of that are going to be hurt by Doge yeah that's are going to be hurt by Doge yeah that's are going to be hurt by Doge yeah that's it's always a really difficult question it's always a really difficult question it's always a really difficult question a lot of people get fired to make room a lot of people get fired to make room a lot of people get fired to make room for a new system that's going to lead to for a new system that's going to lead to for a new system that's going to lead to a lot of pain there is going to be a lot

a lot of pain there is going to be a lot a lot of pain there is going to be a lot of pain I don't know what the solution of pain I don't know what the solution of pain I don't know what the solution is I think I think that's also part of is I think I think that's also part of is I think I think that's also part of why Freedman favored a minimum income he why Freedman favored a minimum income he why Freedman favored a minimum income he talked about it being sort of counter talked about it being sort of counter talked about it being sort of counter cyclical in other words when things were cyclical in other words when things were cyclical in other words when things were really bad the spending level on it really bad the spending level on it really bad the spending level on it would naturally go up this is what would naturally go up this is what would naturally go up this is what economists today call an automatic economists today call an automatic economists today call an automatic stabilizer um and then when it's not stabilizer um and then when it's not stabilizer um and then when it's not needed the cost of it goes down um I needed the cost of it goes down um I needed the cost of it goes down um I mean maybe there's a way to make it mean maybe there's a way to make it mean maybe there's a way to make it sweeten it with honey and have people sweeten it with honey and have people sweeten it with honey and have people take buyouts or things like that that take buyouts or things like that that take buyouts or things like that that would certainly be a way better way to would certainly be a way better way to would certainly be a way better way to go I did a podcast with Javier Malay he go I did a podcast with Javier Malay he go I did a podcast with Javier Malay he has consistently praised Milton Friedman has consistently praised Milton Friedman has consistently praised Milton Friedman and cited him as one of his Inspirations and cited him as one of his Inspirations and cited him as one of his Inspirations so uh what do you think Milton fredman so uh what do you think Milton fredman so uh what do you think Milton fredman would say about what's going on in would say about what's going on in would say about what's going on in Argentina and what ja Malay is trying to Argentina and what ja Malay is trying to Argentina and what ja Malay is trying to do in Argentina yeah I think he would do in Argentina yeah I think he would do in Argentina yeah I think he would appreciate it I mean I think Malay is appreciate it I mean I think Malay is appreciate it I mean I think Malay is much more of an Austrian inspired much more of an Austrian inspired much more of an Austrian inspired thinker um but I think he definitely thinker um but I think he definitely thinker um but I think he definitely appreciates fredman and on the macro appreciates fredman and on the macro appreciates fredman and on the macro level fredman always understood it's level fredman always understood it's level fredman always understood it's really painful to treat inflation um but really painful to treat inflation um but really painful to treat inflation um but the more you put it off the harder it is the more you put it off the harder it is the more you put it off the harder it is so I think he would be trying to get him so I think he would be trying to get him so I think he would be trying to get him as he's doing to just message that as he's doing to just message that as he's doing to just message that short-term pain long-term gain um I short-term pain long-term gain um I short-term pain long-term gain um I think he'd be very supportive I think think he'd be very supportive I think think he'd be very supportive I think he'd be thrilled to see also that Malay he'd be thrilled to see also that Malay he'd be thrilled to see also that Malay is very good at explaining these is very good at explaining these is very good at explaining these abstract ideas and putting his policies abstract ideas and putting his policies abstract ideas and putting his policies in the framework of the bigger picture in the framework of the bigger picture in the framework of the bigger picture that was really meaningful to fredman I

that was really meaningful to fredman I that was really meaningful to fredman I don't know how politically persuasive it don't know how politically persuasive it don't know how politically persuasive it is overall um you know Malay is very is overall um you know Malay is very is overall um you know Malay is very intense he doesn't have uh the same sort intense he doesn't have uh the same sort intense he doesn't have uh the same sort of gifts of salesmanship and setting of gifts of salesmanship and setting of gifts of salesmanship and setting people at ease that say someone like people at ease that say someone like people at ease that say someone like Ronald Reagan had but it seems to be Ronald Reagan had but it seems to be Ronald Reagan had but it seems to be that's what his country was calling for that's what his country was calling for that's what his country was calling for right now so yeah he's yeah he is more right now so yeah he's yeah he is more right now so yeah he's yeah he is more chainsaw less like warm blanket yeah uh chainsaw less like warm blanket yeah uh chainsaw less like warm blanket yeah uh he uh Javier recollects this this line he uh Javier recollects this this line he uh Javier recollects this this line from Milton Freeman I don't know if this from Milton Freeman I don't know if this from Milton Freeman I don't know if this is accurate but if you strive for is accurate but if you strive for is accurate but if you strive for equality over Freedom you often get equality over Freedom you often get equality over Freedom you often get neither but if you strive for Freedom neither but if you strive for Freedom neither but if you strive for Freedom you often get both do you think there's you often get both do you think there's you often get both do you think there's truth to this you know I think on the truth to this you know I think on the truth to this you know I think on the big picture definitely I mean we've seen big picture definitely I mean we've seen big picture definitely I mean we've seen focusing too much on focusing too much on focusing too much on equality can be because equality is such equality can be because equality is such equality can be because equality is such an alluring word it can lead you to an alluring word it can lead you to an alluring word it can lead you to downgrade all kinds of other things that downgrade all kinds of other things that downgrade all kinds of other things that are really important but I really think are really important but I really think are really important but I really think it depends on how you're defining it depends on how you're defining it depends on how you're defining freedom I mean this the statement is too freedom I mean this the statement is too freedom I mean this the statement is too is too big and too broad right so um you is too big and too broad right so um you is too big and too broad right so um you know if you're talking about Freedom if know if you're talking about Freedom if know if you're talking about Freedom if by Freedom you mean um not having to pay by Freedom you mean um not having to pay by Freedom you mean um not having to pay taxes if you're successful you know I taxes if you're successful you know I taxes if you're successful you know I think that can have all kinds of think that can have all kinds of think that can have all kinds of knock-on effects right the idea that knock-on effects right the idea that knock-on effects right the idea that people are able to prosper when they're people are able to prosper when they're people are able to prosper when they're educated where is education going to educated where is education going to educated where is education going to come from um how is that going to be come from um how is that going to be come from um how is that going to be paid for and supported and again to go paid for and supported and again to go paid for and supported and again to go back to night if you're generating too

back to night if you're generating too back to night if you're generating too much inequality or people are feeling much inequality or people are feeling much inequality or people are feeling that you're generating too much that you're generating too much that you're generating too much inequality um sometimes they value that inequality um sometimes they value that inequality um sometimes they value that more than they value freedom and so I more than they value freedom and so I more than they value freedom and so I think the balance I think there has to think the balance I think there has to think the balance I think there has to be more of a balance and it's just it's be more of a balance and it's just it's be more of a balance and it's just it's hard to make such Global statements and hard to make such Global statements and hard to make such Global statements and you have to break them down into what you have to break them down into what you have to break them down into what actually do you mean but again Malay is actually do you mean but again Malay is actually do you mean but again Malay is coming from a very different context a coming from a very different context a coming from a very different context a very different country that has seen so very different country that has seen so very different country that has seen so much upheaval so much government much upheaval so much government much upheaval so much government intervention so much inflation so much intervention so much inflation so much intervention so much inflation so much political turmoil um he's probably political turmoil um he's probably political turmoil um he's probably thinking about it differently than thinking about it differently than thinking about it differently than fredman was thinking about it yeah I fredman was thinking about it yeah I fredman was thinking about it yeah I mean there's a there was there probably mean there's a there was there probably mean there's a there was there probably still is a real threat of still is a real threat of still is a real threat of hyperinflation there seems to be a very hyperinflation there seems to be a very hyperinflation there seems to be a very high level of corruption or the capacity high level of corruption or the capacity high level of corruption or the capacity for corruption so it's a it's a really for corruption so it's a it's a really for corruption so it's a it's a really messy situation so Javier Malay likes to messy situation so Javier Malay likes to messy situation so Javier Malay likes to recollect this uh great line from Milton recollect this uh great line from Milton recollect this uh great line from Milton Freeman that if you strive for equality Freeman that if you strive for equality Freeman that if you strive for equality over Freedom you often get neither but over Freedom you often get neither but over Freedom you often get neither but if you strive for Freedom you often get if you strive for Freedom you often get if you strive for Freedom you often get both do you think there's uh truth to both do you think there's uh truth to both do you think there's uh truth to this yeah I think in the macro for sure this yeah I think in the macro for sure this yeah I think in the macro for sure I mean we've seen if you really put I mean we've seen if you really put I mean we've seen if you really put equality as your goal it's such a it's equality as your goal it's such a it's equality as your goal it's such a it's it's such a seductive ideal and people it's such a seductive ideal and people it's such a seductive ideal and people believe in it so much that they can they believe in it so much that they can they believe in it so much that they can they can carry out horrible crimes you know can carry out horrible crimes you know can carry out horrible crimes you know in the name of equality but then in the name of equality but then in the name of equality but then focusing on freedom I just these words focusing on freedom I just these words focusing on freedom I just these words are too big they're so hard to Define are too big they're so hard to Define are too big they're so hard to Define and so I think you have to ask sort of and so I think you have to ask sort of and so I think you have to ask sort of like what is the freedom you're talking like what is the freedom you're talking like what is the freedom you're talking about right if you're talking about the

about right if you're talking about the about right if you're talking about the freedom of ordinary people to be freedom of ordinary people to be freedom of ordinary people to be entrepreneurial um to make their own way entrepreneurial um to make their own way entrepreneurial um to make their own way to start new things to continue what to start new things to continue what to start new things to continue what they're doing to keep what they've they're doing to keep what they've they're doing to keep what they've earned for sure I think that can earned for sure I think that can earned for sure I think that can increase the equ overall if you're increase the equ overall if you're increase the equ overall if you're talking about um lower taxes if freedom talking about um lower taxes if freedom talking about um lower taxes if freedom is just a code for lower taxes there has is just a code for lower taxes there has is just a code for lower taxes there has to be I mean lower taxes in general to be I mean lower taxes in general to be I mean lower taxes in general great but if you're one of the top uh great but if you're one of the top uh great but if you're one of the top uh generators of wealth there has to be generators of wealth there has to be generators of wealth there has to be some way to ensure that say education some way to ensure that say education some way to ensure that say education right people Prosper when they're well right people Prosper when they're well right people Prosper when they're well educated that's when economies do better educated that's when economies do better educated that's when economies do better education is generally state funded and education is generally state funded and education is generally state funded and you need some way to support that and um you need some way to support that and um you need some way to support that and um provide for those inst tions that provide for those inst tions that provide for those inst tions that structure society that make competition structure society that make competition structure society that make competition possible so I think it's it's just a possible so I think it's it's just a possible so I think it's it's just a really broad statement um but again really broad statement um but again really broad statement um but again Malay is coming from a really different Malay is coming from a really different Malay is coming from a really different context you know he's coming from the context you know he's coming from the context you know he's coming from the south american context from such south american context from such south american context from such upheaval such economic Devastation in upheaval such economic Devastation in upheaval such economic Devastation in pursuit of the goal of equality that I pursuit of the goal of equality that I pursuit of the goal of equality that I think trying to rebalance with that think trying to rebalance with that think trying to rebalance with that emphasis on freedom I definitely see emphasis on freedom I definitely see emphasis on freedom I definitely see where he's coming from if we can pivot a where he's coming from if we can pivot a where he's coming from if we can pivot a little bit we've talked about little bit we've talked about little bit we've talked about Reagan uh what are some interesting Reagan uh what are some interesting Reagan uh what are some interesting stories about how Milton fredman stories about how Milton fredman stories about how Milton fredman navigated the Reagan and maybe even the navigated the Reagan and maybe even the navigated the Reagan and maybe even the Nix administrations and how he was able Nix administrations and how he was able Nix administrations and how he was able to gain influence well the Nixon to gain influence well the Nixon to gain influence well the Nixon Administration is an interesting case Administration is an interesting case Administration is an interesting case because so I've been talking about because so I've been talking about because so I've been talking about inflation and the different consequences inflation and the different consequences inflation and the different consequences it had one consequence it had is that it

it had one consequence it had is that it it had one consequence it had is that it began to undermine the brettonwoods began to undermine the brettonwoods began to undermine the brettonwoods currency system that was established in currency system that was established in currency system that was established in the wake of World War II now Breton the wake of World War II now Breton the wake of World War II now Breton Woods what it did basically it it ended Woods what it did basically it it ended Woods what it did basically it it ended up inadvertently putting the US dollar up inadvertently putting the US dollar up inadvertently putting the US dollar at the center of the world economic at the center of the world economic at the center of the world economic system but under Breton Woods countries system but under Breton Woods countries system but under Breton Woods countries of the industrialized West agreed to of the industrialized West agreed to of the industrialized West agreed to trade their currency in set ratios that trade their currency in set ratios that trade their currency in set ratios that government set so um a Frank was worth government set so um a Frank was worth government set so um a Frank was worth so many dollars or a German Mark was so many dollars or a German Mark was so many dollars or a German Mark was worth so many Franks and then also under worth so many Franks and then also under worth so many Franks and then also under this system countries could come to the this system countries could come to the this system countries could come to the United States and they could trade um United States and they could trade um United States and they could trade um the dollars that they held for gold the dollars that they held for gold the dollars that they held for gold because the US was on a sort of modified because the US was on a sort of modified because the US was on a sort of modified gold standard there was gold standard there was gold standard there was uh ratio of gold to paper money and so uh ratio of gold to paper money and so uh ratio of gold to paper money and so this system was set up and very quickly this system was set up and very quickly this system was set up and very quickly most countries were the dollar was at most countries were the dollar was at most countries were the dollar was at the heart of it and that the converting the heart of it and that the converting the heart of it and that the converting into and out of dollars was really the into and out of dollars was really the into and out of dollars was really the mechanism of trade for many of these mechanism of trade for many of these mechanism of trade for many of these countries so fredman said you know what countries so fredman said you know what countries so fredman said you know what we should have is floating exchange we should have is floating exchange we should have is floating exchange rates this is an idea again of instead rates this is an idea again of instead rates this is an idea again of instead of having a top- down design of policy of having a top- down design of policy of having a top- down design of policy an administered policy we will have an administered policy we will have an administered policy we will have policy set by prices and you should be policy set by prices and you should be policy set by prices and you should be able to trade currencies on an open able to trade currencies on an open able to trade currencies on an open market they should trade and they should market they should trade and they should market they should trade and they should fluctuate and that would be fine totally fluctuate and that would be fine totally fluctuate and that would be fine totally outlandish outlandish outlandish idea but he was pinpointing the fact idea but he was pinpointing the fact idea but he was pinpointing the fact that Bretton Woods had an instability that Bretton Woods had an instability that Bretton Woods had an instability and that instability began to emerge in and that instability began to emerge in and that instability began to emerge in the time of inflation so you have more

the time of inflation so you have more the time of inflation so you have more and more dollars being printed they're and more dollars being printed they're and more dollars being printed they're worth less and less if European nations worth less and less if European nations worth less and less if European nations keep trading their currency for dollars keep trading their currency for dollars keep trading their currency for dollars they're going to be importing inflation they're going to be importing inflation they're going to be importing inflation into their own economies so they say we into their own economies so they say we into their own economies so they say we don't want these dollars we'd like some don't want these dollars we'd like some don't want these dollars we'd like some gold instead and they have the right to gold instead and they have the right to gold instead and they have the right to go to the treasury send in an order and go to the treasury send in an order and go to the treasury send in an order and get gold out and so they start doing get gold out and so they start doing get gold out and so they start doing this more and more and it becomes it's this more and more and it becomes it's this more and more and it becomes it's called the gold drain and the United called the gold drain and the United called the gold drain and the United States starts running out of gold States starts running out of gold States starts running out of gold they're aware this is happening through they're aware this is happening through they're aware this is happening through the 60s they're trying various things to the 60s they're trying various things to the 60s they're trying various things to fix it fix it fix it and when Nixon comes into and when Nixon comes into and when Nixon comes into office in 68 fredman sends him a memo office in 68 fredman sends him a memo office in 68 fredman sends him a memo and it says and it says and it says um this is going to be a real problem he um this is going to be a real problem he um this is going to be a real problem he says something like it ah this is a says something like it ah this is a says something like it ah this is a running soar and you have to Lance it running soar and you have to Lance it running soar and you have to Lance it right away you know some very graphic right away you know some very graphic right away you know some very graphic very nice metaphor uh otherwise it's very nice metaphor uh otherwise it's very nice metaphor uh otherwise it's it's going to you know it's going to it's going to you know it's going to it's going to you know it's going to explode and and Nixon just you know explode and and Nixon just you know explode and and Nixon just you know files the memo away Nixon loved people files the memo away Nixon loved people files the memo away Nixon loved people to think he was influenced by and to think he was influenced by and to think he was influenced by and following the wisdom of Milton fredman following the wisdom of Milton fredman following the wisdom of Milton fredman but he didn't actually want to do that but he didn't actually want to do that but he didn't actually want to do that he he just wanted the a political he he just wanted the a political he he just wanted the a political benefit that came from it benefit that came from it benefit that came from it so then comes the moment where the US so then comes the moment where the US so then comes the moment where the US Treasury Department realizes we're going Treasury Department realizes we're going Treasury Department realizes we're going to run out of gold what should we do and to run out of gold what should we do and to run out of gold what should we do and they everybody decamps to Camp David and

they everybody decamps to Camp David and they everybody decamps to Camp David and Nixon Nixon Nixon decides we're just going to stop decides we're just going to stop decides we're just going to stop redeeming uh currency for gold it's redeeming uh currency for gold it's redeeming uh currency for gold it's called slamming the gold window shut called slamming the gold window shut called slamming the gold window shut done and and he also at that same done and and he also at that same done and and he also at that same meeting decides to Institute price meeting decides to Institute price meeting decides to Institute price controls he does a whole bunch of stuff controls he does a whole bunch of stuff controls he does a whole bunch of stuff it's an emergency he calls it the new it's an emergency he calls it the new it's an emergency he calls it the new economic plan which is an unconscious economic plan which is an unconscious economic plan which is an unconscious echo of the Soviet new economic plan so echo of the Soviet new economic plan so echo of the Soviet new economic plan so uh a problematic name a problematic uh a problematic name a problematic uh a problematic name a problematic policy and Freeman is livid at the price policy and Freeman is livid at the price policy and Freeman is livid at the price controls but he's like actually it's controls but he's like actually it's controls but he's like actually it's great that you close the gold window great that you close the gold window great that you close the gold window let's go all the way to floating let's go all the way to floating let's go all the way to floating exchange rates and this idea was heresy exchange rates and this idea was heresy exchange rates and this idea was heresy within the treasury Department within the treasury Department within the treasury Department everyone's very um committed to the idea everyone's very um committed to the idea everyone's very um committed to the idea of the gold standard convertibility of the gold standard convertibility of the gold standard convertibility possibility the United States at the possibility the United States at the possibility the United States at the court the financial system kind of hem court the financial system kind of hem court the financial system kind of hem andha but at this point fredman has a andha but at this point fredman has a andha but at this point fredman has a very close relationship with George very close relationship with George very close relationship with George Schultz and George Schultz is a high Schultz and George Schultz is a high Schultz and George Schultz is a high level appointee who will eventually over level appointee who will eventually over level appointee who will eventually over the course of an N administrations the course of an N administrations the course of an N administrations become the treasury secretary and so become the treasury secretary and so become the treasury secretary and so fredman is feeding Schultz all his IDE fredman is feeding Schultz all his IDE fredman is feeding Schultz all his IDE ideas about how we should move to ideas about how we should move to ideas about how we should move to floating exchange rates how we shouldn't floating exchange rates how we shouldn't floating exchange rates how we shouldn't try to reconstruct Breton woods and the try to reconstruct Breton woods and the try to reconstruct Breton woods and the people in people in people in treasury it's it's funny because I've treasury it's it's funny because I've treasury it's it's funny because I've read some of their accounts and actually read some of their accounts and actually read some of their accounts and actually Paul vulker is in the treasury Paul vulker is in the treasury Paul vulker is in the treasury Department at this time and he can kind Department at this time and he can kind Department at this time and he can kind of sense that fredman is in here of sense that fredman is in here of sense that fredman is in here somewhere you know like feeding a boss somewhere you know like feeding a boss somewhere you know like feeding a boss ideas he doesn't quite know and you know ideas he doesn't quite know and you know ideas he doesn't quite know and you know then in in the oral history Schultz then in in the oral history Schultz then in in the oral history Schultz talks about this quite a bit so at any

talks about this quite a bit so at any talks about this quite a bit so at any rate fredman exerts this behind rate fredman exerts this behind rate fredman exerts this behind the-scenes influence and what Schultz the-scenes influence and what Schultz the-scenes influence and what Schultz does is just kind of lets Breton Woods does is just kind of lets Breton Woods does is just kind of lets Breton Woods fade away he doesn't make Grand fade away he doesn't make Grand fade away he doesn't make Grand pronouncements it just slowly the world pronouncements it just slowly the world pronouncements it just slowly the world shifts to um a regime of they for a shifts to um a regime of they for a shifts to um a regime of they for a while it was like a regime of steady while it was like a regime of steady while it was like a regime of steady prices then they call it a steady regime prices then they call it a steady regime prices then they call it a steady regime of changing prices or whatever the of changing prices or whatever the of changing prices or whatever the language changes the reality changes and language changes the reality changes and language changes the reality changes and they kind of end up where they are so they kind of end up where they are so they kind of end up where they are so that's a real measure of freedman's that's a real measure of freedman's that's a real measure of freedman's influence if there had been another influence if there had been another influence if there had been another Economist in Schultz's ear that said no Economist in Schultz's ear that said no Economist in Schultz's ear that said no catastrophe is imminent we have to go catastrophe is imminent we have to go catastrophe is imminent we have to go back to Breton Woods he probably would back to Breton Woods he probably would back to Breton Woods he probably would have worked harder the US government have worked harder the US government have worked harder the US government would have worked harder and so that would have worked harder and so that would have worked harder and so that becomes one of these pieces of becomes one of these pieces of becomes one of these pieces of globalization and you know what people globalization and you know what people globalization and you know what people don't realize is there used to be in don't realize is there used to be in don't realize is there used to be in addition to these floating set Capital addition to these floating set Capital addition to these floating set Capital ratios you couldn't bring capital in and ratios you couldn't bring capital in and ratios you couldn't bring capital in and out of different countries you know you out of different countries you know you out of different countries you know you had to register you couldn't invest were had to register you couldn't invest were had to register you couldn't invest were all these rules and strictures and the all these rules and strictures and the all these rules and strictures and the falling of Breton Woods really blows falling of Breton Woods really blows falling of Breton Woods really blows that all open it's it's a precursor to that all open it's it's a precursor to that all open it's it's a precursor to globalization so so fredman is right globalization so so fredman is right globalization so so fredman is right there now he's very ambivalent about there now he's very ambivalent about there now he's very ambivalent about Nixon I mean he sees that Nixon is not Nixon I mean he sees that Nixon is not Nixon I mean he sees that Nixon is not an honest person he thinks he's very an honest person he thinks he's very an honest person he thinks he's very intelligent um and Nixon Nixon's dream intelligent um and Nixon Nixon's dream intelligent um and Nixon Nixon's dream is to create a new Centrist majority so is to create a new Centrist majority so is to create a new Centrist majority so he does many things to go back on his he does many things to go back on his he does many things to go back on his supposed economic principles and ideas supposed economic principles and ideas supposed economic principles and ideas so fredman does not like this he doesn't so fredman does not like this he doesn't so fredman does not like this he doesn't like the price controls he's in like the price controls he's in like the price controls he's in communication with his old Mentor Arthur communication with his old Mentor Arthur communication with his old Mentor Arthur Burns who's now the chair of the Federal

Burns who's now the chair of the Federal Burns who's now the chair of the Federal Reserve and burns is basically doing Reserve and burns is basically doing Reserve and burns is basically doing everything wrong in monetary policy and everything wrong in monetary policy and everything wrong in monetary policy and I described this in the book in some I described this in the book in some I described this in the book in some detail these anguish letters back and detail these anguish letters back and detail these anguish letters back and forth and basically as I see it bur forth and basically as I see it bur forth and basically as I see it bur doesn't have a solid theory of inflation doesn't have a solid theory of inflation doesn't have a solid theory of inflation and the more fredman pushes him it's and the more fredman pushes him it's and the more fredman pushes him it's almost like Burns is willfully ignoring almost like Burns is willfully ignoring almost like Burns is willfully ignoring fredman and kind of doing the opposite fredman and kind of doing the opposite fredman and kind of doing the opposite of what fredman says so Burns is running of what fredman says so Burns is running of what fredman says so Burns is running a very loose monetary policy inflation a very loose monetary policy inflation a very loose monetary policy inflation is quite considerable over the 70s I is quite considerable over the 70s I is quite considerable over the 70s I mean we were all spooked by what did it mean we were all spooked by what did it mean we were all spooked by what did it get to 6% something like that recently get to 6% something like that recently get to 6% something like that recently for a very short time this is inflation for a very short time this is inflation for a very short time this is inflation going over 10% hovering in 8% for the going over 10% hovering in 8% for the going over 10% hovering in 8% for the basically the Whole Decade of the 70s basically the Whole Decade of the 70s basically the Whole Decade of the 70s going up and down with extremely going up and down with extremely going up and down with extremely elevated rates and so the Carter elevated rates and so the Carter elevated rates and so the Carter presidency largely Falls foreign policy presidency largely Falls foreign policy presidency largely Falls foreign policy is a big part of it but the failure to is a big part of it but the failure to is a big part of it but the failure to tame inflation is part of it and then tame inflation is part of it and then tame inflation is part of it and then Reagan comes in and now Reagan loves Reagan comes in and now Reagan loves Reagan comes in and now Reagan loves fredman and fredman loves Reagan very fredman and fredman loves Reagan very fredman and fredman loves Reagan very mutual feeling the Reagan Administration mutual feeling the Reagan Administration mutual feeling the Reagan Administration creates like an advisory economic board creates like an advisory economic board creates like an advisory economic board fredman's on it he's he's retired now fredman's on it he's he's retired now fredman's on it he's he's retired now you know he's entering his kind of you know he's entering his kind of you know he's entering his kind of golden years he really has Reagan's ear golden years he really has Reagan's ear golden years he really has Reagan's ear and here what he does is he convinces and here what he does is he convinces and here what he does is he convinces Reagan of his theory of inflation which Reagan of his theory of inflation which Reagan of his theory of inflation which is inflation has been caused it's a is inflation has been caused it's a is inflation has been caused it's a monetary phenomenon that has been caused monetary phenomenon that has been caused monetary phenomenon that has been caused by bad monetary by bad monetary by bad monetary policy inflation has an accelerating policy inflation has an accelerating policy inflation has an accelerating Dynamic the only way to end inflation is Dynamic the only way to end inflation is Dynamic the only way to end inflation is by really showing and signaling that by really showing and signaling that by really showing and signaling that government policy has changed and when government policy has changed and when government policy has changed and when you do that it's very painful for a

you do that it's very painful for a you do that it's very painful for a short amount of time people will suffer short amount of time people will suffer short amount of time people will suffer but then you will come out on the other but then you will come out on the other but then you will come out on the other side into stable prices and this is what side into stable prices and this is what side into stable prices and this is what you need for economic Prosperity so the you need for economic Prosperity so the you need for economic Prosperity so the man who implements this policy Paul man who implements this policy Paul man who implements this policy Paul vulker he definitely influenced by vulker he definitely influenced by vulker he definitely influenced by fredman buys a big picture of fredman he fredman buys a big picture of fredman he fredman buys a big picture of fredman he even buys fredman's specific technique even buys fredman's specific technique even buys fredman's specific technique of the monetary growth Rule and of the of the monetary growth Rule and of the of the monetary growth Rule and of the focus on monetary Aggregates which focus on monetary Aggregates which focus on monetary Aggregates which fredman has said right Money Matters fredman has said right Money Matters fredman has said right Money Matters Aggregates matter that's what money is Aggregates matter that's what money is Aggregates matter that's what money is pretty quickly vulker finds that because pretty quickly vulker finds that because pretty quickly vulker finds that because of inflation and the financial of inflation and the financial of inflation and the financial deregulation in response to it the deregulation in response to it the deregulation in response to it the Aggregates don't work the way fredman Aggregates don't work the way fredman Aggregates don't work the way fredman said they would and so the specific said they would and so the specific said they would and so the specific policy fredman recommends VOR tries it policy fredman recommends VOR tries it policy fredman recommends VOR tries it for a year or so doesn't work super well for a year or so doesn't work super well for a year or so doesn't work super well but what does work is letting interest but what does work is letting interest but what does work is letting interest rates go high go above inflation to a rates go high go above inflation to a rates go high go above inflation to a point where both the general citizenry point where both the general citizenry point where both the general citizenry and the financial markets believe like and the financial markets believe like and the financial markets believe like oh they're actually serious about oh they're actually serious about oh they're actually serious about inflation and and because we've had a inflation and and because we've had a inflation and and because we've had a decade of inflation with all these decade of inflation with all these decade of inflation with all these presidents saying you know Ford we're presidents saying you know Ford we're presidents saying you know Ford we're going to whip inflation now the monetary going to whip inflation now the monetary going to whip inflation now the monetary policy is lost credibility this is why policy is lost credibility this is why policy is lost credibility this is why people focus so much on credibility people focus so much on credibility people focus so much on credibility today because once it's lost it's really today because once it's lost it's really today because once it's lost it's really hard to get it back and one way vulker hard to get it back and one way vulker hard to get it back and one way vulker gets it back is interest rates over 20% gets it back is interest rates over 20% gets it back is interest rates over 20% unemployment very high as high as 25% in unemployment very high as high as 25% in unemployment very high as high as 25% in like construction sectors and as this is like construction sectors and as this is like construction sectors and as this is happening Milton Freedman is whispering happening Milton Freedman is whispering happening Milton Freedman is whispering in Reagan's ear this is the right thing

in Reagan's ear this is the right thing in Reagan's ear this is the right thing stay the course this is going to work stay the course this is going to work stay the course this is going to work now interestingly he hates vulker vulker now interestingly he hates vulker vulker now interestingly he hates vulker vulker hates him and Freeman will never give hates him and Freeman will never give hates him and Freeman will never give vulker credit for this policy but he vulker credit for this policy but he vulker credit for this policy but he will give Reagan credit for this policy will give Reagan credit for this policy will give Reagan credit for this policy but he owes credit himself for keeping but he owes credit himself for keeping but he owes credit himself for keeping Reagan from wobbling on this policy and Reagan from wobbling on this policy and Reagan from wobbling on this policy and just pushing it through and he also just pushing it through and he also just pushing it through and he also tells Reagan very pragmatically you tells Reagan very pragmatically you tells Reagan very pragmatically you better do this now you've got a better do this now you've got a better do this now you've got a four-year term do this in the first two four-year term do this in the first two four-year term do this in the first two years of your term things will have years of your term things will have years of your term things will have turned around 1984 when you run for turned around 1984 when you run for turned around 1984 when you run for re-election and you'll benefit from it re-election and you'll benefit from it re-election and you'll benefit from it and that's absolutely what happens if we and that's absolutely what happens if we and that's absolutely what happens if we could take a small tangent yeah sort of could take a small tangent yeah sort of could take a small tangent yeah sort of a question I have to ask uh about since a question I have to ask uh about since a question I have to ask uh about since we mentioned Bron woods and maybe the we mentioned Bron woods and maybe the we mentioned Bron woods and maybe the gold standard maybe just have a general gold standard maybe just have a general gold standard maybe just have a general discussion about this whole Space of discussion about this whole Space of discussion about this whole Space of ideas there's a lot of people today that ideas there's a lot of people today that ideas there's a lot of people today that care about cryptocurrency care about cryptocurrency care about cryptocurrency mhm what do you think that Milton mhm what do you think that Milton mhm what do you think that Milton fredman would say about cryptocurrency fredman would say about cryptocurrency fredman would say about cryptocurrency and and and um what role crypto might play in the um what role crypto might play in the um what role crypto might play in the economy whether he would be for this economy whether he would be for this economy whether he would be for this idea against this idea and if we could idea against this idea and if we could idea against this idea and if we could look at it for today and also just you look at it for today and also just you look at it for today and also just you know 10 100 years from now there's a know 10 100 years from now there's a know 10 100 years from now there's a clip I think it's in 1992 where people clip I think it's in 1992 where people clip I think it's in 1992 where people say oh Freeman predicted say oh Freeman predicted say oh Freeman predicted cryptocurrencies because he's talking cryptocurrencies because he's talking cryptocurrencies because he's talking about how payments will eventually be about how payments will eventually be about how payments will eventually be electronic yeah um so in some ways he electronic yeah um so in some ways he electronic yeah um so in some ways he definitely as he was looking at the definitely as he was looking at the definitely as he was looking at the computer and money he knew these these computer and money he knew these these computer and money he knew these these would come together in some way you know

would come together in some way you know would come together in some way you know I think um he probably would see a use I think um he probably would see a use I think um he probably would see a use case for crypto he definitely would not case for crypto he definitely would not case for crypto he definitely would not buy the stronger forms I think of crypto buy the stronger forms I think of crypto buy the stronger forms I think of crypto ideology in which we could be heading ideology in which we could be heading ideology in which we could be heading towards a future in which there's many towards a future in which there's many towards a future in which there's many different currencies that compete or different currencies that compete or different currencies that compete or that are distributed or there's a that are distributed or there's a that are distributed or there's a stateless currency and he addresses this stateless currency and he addresses this stateless currency and he addresses this very very clearly because a hyek very very clearly because a hyek very very clearly because a hyek denationalization of money it's a paper denationalization of money it's a paper denationalization of money it's a paper in the late' 70s you know Hayek argues in the late' 70s you know Hayek argues in the late' 70s you know Hayek argues for this kind of competing currency for this kind of competing currency for this kind of competing currency model or regime and so he's responding model or regime and so he's responding model or regime and so he's responding to that he's responding to people to that he's responding to people to that he's responding to people writing about Free banking and he writing about Free banking and he writing about Free banking and he basically says look even if you basically says look even if you basically says look even if you developed a variety of competing developed a variety of competing developed a variety of competing currencies eventually society would currencies eventually society would currencies eventually society would Converge on one and that's because Converge on one and that's because Converge on one and that's because people just want one currency that they people just want one currency that they people just want one currency that they know they don't want a bunch of know they don't want a bunch of know they don't want a bunch of different options even in places where different options even in places where different options even in places where there have been options to do that there have been options to do that there have been options to do that they've been used very minimally and they've been used very minimally and they've been used very minimally and then he says secondly the state always then he says secondly the state always then he says secondly the state always steps in he says technically steps in he says technically steps in he says technically theoretically it doesn't have to I could theoretically it doesn't have to I could theoretically it doesn't have to I could draw you a model I could tell you about draw you a model I could tell you about draw you a model I could tell you about how it could work without the state but how it could work without the state but how it could work without the state but in actual reality all human societies in actual reality all human societies in actual reality all human societies through time and space the state through time and space the state through time and space the state eventually becomes involved in the eventually becomes involved in the eventually becomes involved in the provision of money because it has so provision of money because it has so provision of money because it has so many KnockOn effects to so many people many KnockOn effects to so many people many KnockOn effects to so many people so sure I think he would again find a so sure I think he would again find a so sure I think he would again find a use case for crypto think it's use case for crypto think it's use case for crypto think it's interesting but I don't think he would interesting but I don't think he would interesting but I don't think he would see it as this is going to displace see it as this is going to displace see it as this is going to displace State money and we're going to have um State money and we're going to have um State money and we're going to have um you know a variety of distributed you know a variety of distributed you know a variety of distributed currencies the other thing he really

currencies the other thing he really currencies the other thing he really stresses is that a change in a monetary stresses is that a change in a monetary stresses is that a change in a monetary system it only happens amid great great system it only happens amid great great system it only happens amid great great crisis so again you see in countries crisis so again you see in countries crisis so again you see in countries where the state is not controlling the where the state is not controlling the where the state is not controlling the money well right that's when people are money well right that's when people are money well right that's when people are more turning to crypto but he says more turning to crypto but he says more turning to crypto but he says because money is so because money is so because money is so fundamental there going to be so much fundamental there going to be so much fundamental there going to be so much political pressure on any country that political pressure on any country that political pressure on any country that gets the currency profoundly wrong that gets the currency profoundly wrong that gets the currency profoundly wrong that the government will fall and another one the government will fall and another one the government will fall and another one will replace it right so if you look at will replace it right so if you look at will replace it right so if you look at episodes of episodes of episodes of hyperinflation they don't go on very hyperinflation they don't go on very hyperinflation they don't go on very long because they're so upsetting to long because they're so upsetting to long because they're so upsetting to people if we can go back in time we've people if we can go back in time we've people if we can go back in time we've we've talked about it a bunch but it's we've talked about it a bunch but it's we've talked about it a bunch but it's still a fascinating time uh the Great still a fascinating time uh the Great still a fascinating time uh the Great Depression University of Chicago there's Depression University of Chicago there's Depression University of Chicago there's these folks like Jacob Viner Frank these folks like Jacob Viner Frank these folks like Jacob Viner Frank Knight Henry Simons all of these influen Knight Henry Simons all of these influen Knight Henry Simons all of these influen the thinking of Milton Freedman there's the thinking of Milton Freedman there's the thinking of Milton Freedman there's this room seven situation University of this room seven situation University of this room seven situation University of Chicago just going back there even just Chicago just going back there even just Chicago just going back there even just speaking almost philosophically what speaking almost philosophically what speaking almost philosophically what does it take to explore ideas together does it take to explore ideas together does it take to explore ideas together sort of like deliberate argue in that sort of like deliberate argue in that sort of like deliberate argue in that space and maybe there might be space and maybe there might be space and maybe there might be interesting stories about that time it interesting stories about that time it interesting stories about that time it would just be interesting to understand would just be interesting to understand would just be interesting to understand how somebody like Milton fredman how somebody like Milton fredman how somebody like Milton fredman forms the seed is planted and the flower forms the seed is planted and the flower forms the seed is planted and the flower blooms yeah yeah so he gets to blooms yeah yeah so he gets to blooms yeah yeah so he gets to University of Chicago he makes fast University of Chicago he makes fast University of Chicago he makes fast friends and in his his third and fourth

friends and in his his third and fourth friends and in his his third and fourth year they become what I call them the year they become what I call them the year they become what I call them the room seven gang so room seven is they room seven gang so room seven is they room seven gang so room seven is they find an old store room in the basement find an old store room in the basement find an old store room in the basement they take it over and that's where they they take it over and that's where they they take it over and that's where they have their jam sessions and what made have their jam sessions and what made have their jam sessions and what made this world come together was Frank this world come together was Frank this world come together was Frank Knight there was a charismatic leader Knight there was a charismatic leader Knight there was a charismatic leader and there were a bunch of acolytes who and there were a bunch of acolytes who and there were a bunch of acolytes who clustered around him that I think was a clustered around him that I think was a clustered around him that I think was a key piece of the ingredient and then key piece of the ingredient and then key piece of the ingredient and then there was a sense that they were on to there was a sense that they were on to there was a sense that they were on to something that the rest of the economics something that the rest of the economics something that the rest of the economics field had forgotten or was rejecting so field had forgotten or was rejecting so field had forgotten or was rejecting so there was like that of mission so that there was like that of mission so that there was like that of mission so that seems to have been there was a formal seems to have been there was a formal seems to have been there was a formal education piece and then there was a education piece and then there was a education piece and then there was a parallel education piece rooted in parallel education piece rooted in parallel education piece rooted in admiration for a thinker a shared admiration for a thinker a shared admiration for a thinker a shared admiration and then what that led admiration and then what that led admiration and then what that led fredman to do you know what I I found um fredman to do you know what I I found um fredman to do you know what I I found um sylli you know that he had from sylli you know that he had from sylli you know that he had from non-economics courses lists of books and non-economics courses lists of books and non-economics courses lists of books and he'd written the prices of different he'd written the prices of different he'd written the prices of different ones he wanted to read so he had you ones he wanted to read so he had you ones he wanted to read so he had you know John Stewart Mill on Liberty like know John Stewart Mill on Liberty like know John Stewart Mill on Liberty like 50 cents written in the margin so he 50 cents written in the margin so he 50 cents written in the margin so he began to educate himself he gave himself began to educate himself he gave himself began to educate himself he gave himself a like parallel curriculum alongside a like parallel curriculum alongside a like parallel curriculum alongside this very formal economics curriculum he this very formal economics curriculum he this very formal economics curriculum he started reading you know the traditions started reading you know the traditions started reading you know the traditions of political liberalism and then talking of political liberalism and then talking of political liberalism and then talking them through with friends and developing them through with friends and developing them through with friends and developing like a shared sense of mission and that like a shared sense of mission and that like a shared sense of mission and that the incredible thing is of those friends the incredible thing is of those friends the incredible thing is of those friends in the group you know they scattered for in the group you know they scattered for in the group you know they scattered for like 10 years and then they all came like 10 years and then they all came like 10 years and then they all came back together you know George Stigler back together you know George Stigler back together you know George Stigler his great friend was hired at Chicago his great friend was hired at Chicago his great friend was hired at Chicago Aaron director who was his wife's Aaron director who was his wife's Aaron director who was his wife's brother was at Chicago so many of these

brother was at Chicago so many of these brother was at Chicago so many of these people continued he became Frank people continued he became Frank people continued he became Frank Knight's colleague so that was the base Knight's colleague so that was the base Knight's colleague so that was the base that was what really grew him that that was what really grew him that that was what really grew him that really uh profound peer group now the really uh profound peer group now the really uh profound peer group now the other piece I talk about a lot is other piece I talk about a lot is other piece I talk about a lot is Freeman was a collaborator an Freeman was a collaborator an Freeman was a collaborator an open-minded collaborator and he had open-minded collaborator and he had open-minded collaborator and he had incredible connections with economists incredible connections with economists incredible connections with economists who were women and he basically found um who were women and he basically found um who were women and he basically found um first in the figure of Anna Schwarz first in the figure of Anna Schwarz first in the figure of Anna Schwarz later in the figure of this group of later in the figure of this group of later in the figure of this group of women who were his wife friends this women who were his wife friends this women who were his wife friends this kind of untapped pool of talent and so kind of untapped pool of talent and so kind of untapped pool of talent and so he immersed himself in this whole other he immersed himself in this whole other he immersed himself in this whole other world of consumption economics and that world of consumption economics and that world of consumption economics and that resulted in you know his more technical resulted in you know his more technical resulted in you know his more technical work on um a theory of the consumption work on um a theory of the consumption work on um a theory of the consumption function which is the theory of function which is the theory of function which is the theory of permanent income so for fredman permanent income so for fredman permanent income so for fredman intellectual work and intellectual intellectual work and intellectual intellectual work and intellectual production was always done in this very production was always done in this very production was always done in this very social context in a context that Blended social context in a context that Blended social context in a context that Blended like friendship and intellectual like friendship and intellectual like friendship and intellectual partnership and he really he only only partnership and he really he only only partnership and he really he only only had a handful of friends who were not had a handful of friends who were not had a handful of friends who were not also economists interested in the same also economists interested in the same also economists interested in the same questions he was so he just lived and questions he was so he just lived and questions he was so he just lived and breathed ideas all day long can you breathed ideas all day long can you breathed ideas all day long can you speak to the jam sessions like what do speak to the jam sessions like what do speak to the jam sessions like what do we know about the jam sessions what what we know about the jam sessions what what we know about the jam sessions what what what are we talking about here you're what are we talking about here you're what are we talking about here you're sitting in a room are they are they sitting in a room are they are they sitting in a room are they are they analyzing are they reading papers and analyzing are they reading papers and analyzing are they reading papers and discussing papers or are they arguing discussing papers or are they arguing discussing papers or are they arguing more like over beers kind of situation more like over beers kind of situation more like over beers kind of situation yeah more arguing over beers and in this yeah more arguing over beers and in this yeah more arguing over beers and in this case there's several people who say it case there's several people who say it case there's several people who say it was all about Frank Knight what did he was all about Frank Knight what did he was all about Frank Knight what did he say what did he mean when he said it is say what did he mean when he said it is say what did he mean when he said it is he right and so Knight was very he would

he right and so Knight was very he would he right and so Knight was very he would say one thing and then say another if say one thing and then say another if say one thing and then say another if you read him it's very hard to follow you read him it's very hard to follow you read him it's very hard to follow what he's actually saying because he's what he's actually saying because he's what he's actually saying because he's full of qualifications and ironies and full of qualifications and ironies and full of qualifications and ironies and blends and so he would throw out these blends and so he would throw out these blends and so he would throw out these pieces and then the students would kind pieces and then the students would kind pieces and then the students would kind of clutch at them and then they would of clutch at them and then they would of clutch at them and then they would come back together and try to assemble come back together and try to assemble come back together and try to assemble this sort of worldview and then Frank this sort of worldview and then Frank this sort of worldview and then Frank Knight fell into this terrible Knight fell into this terrible Knight fell into this terrible depression and to cheer him up they depression and to cheer him up they depression and to cheer him up they planned a big party and they went back planned a big party and they went back planned a big party and they went back through all of his previous writings and through all of his previous writings and through all of his previous writings and they assembled them into a book that was they assembled them into a book that was they assembled them into a book that was published this is the ethics of published this is the ethics of published this is the ethics of competition and you can read the competition and you can read the competition and you can read the introduction written in part by Milton introduction written in part by Milton introduction written in part by Milton Friedman so not only were they talking Friedman so not only were they talking Friedman so not only were they talking about Knight and what he said but then about Knight and what he said but then about Knight and what he said but then they started pouring over his work and they started pouring over his work and they started pouring over his work and one of them described it as like a one of them described it as like a one of them described it as like a general equilibrium system where you general equilibrium system where you general equilibrium system where you like had to like know all the parts and like had to like know all the parts and like had to like know all the parts and then all of a sudden it all fit together then all of a sudden it all fit together then all of a sudden it all fit together in a hole so if we step back what they in a hole so if we step back what they in a hole so if we step back what they were doing was getting Inside the Mind were doing was getting Inside the Mind were doing was getting Inside the Mind of a great thinker and understanding the of a great thinker and understanding the of a great thinker and understanding the ways that all fit together and then kind ways that all fit together and then kind ways that all fit together and then kind of testing their ideas against Knights of testing their ideas against Knights of testing their ideas against Knights and what's fascinating is one of the and what's fascinating is one of the and what's fascinating is one of the first papers that Freeman publishes in first papers that Freeman publishes in first papers that Freeman publishes in statistics is a rebuttal of Frank Knight statistics is a rebuttal of Frank Knight statistics is a rebuttal of Frank Knight he publishes a rebuttal of Frank he publishes a rebuttal of Frank he publishes a rebuttal of Frank Knight's ideas about risk and Knight's ideas about risk and Knight's ideas about risk and uncertainty and then Frank Knight he uncertainty and then Frank Knight he uncertainty and then Frank Knight he kind of took a Black Swan argument you kind of took a Black Swan argument you kind of took a Black Swan argument you know he said risk you can know he said risk you can know he said risk you can calculate uncertainty you can't like calculate uncertainty you can't like calculate uncertainty you can't like existentially philosophically you can't existentially philosophically you can't existentially philosophically you can't get your hands around it it is the Black get your hands around it it is the Black get your hands around it it is the Black Swan and Freedman publishes this Swan and Freedman publishes this Swan and Freedman publishes this statistical paper and he says I can put statistical paper and he says I can put statistical paper and he says I can put uncertainty on a graph you know and so

uncertainty on a graph you know and so uncertainty on a graph you know and so there's that sort of fian killing of the there's that sort of fian killing of the there's that sort of fian killing of the father element when he comes back and father element when he comes back and father element when he comes back and and he will you know in some ways turn and he will you know in some ways turn and he will you know in some ways turn his back on Knight's approach and his back on Knight's approach and his back on Knight's approach and knight's pessimism even while it's like knight's pessimism even while it's like knight's pessimism even while it's like a foundation of his a foundation of his a foundation of his thinking thinking thinking fascinating is there something you could fascinating is there something you could fascinating is there something you could say about the thinking process say about the thinking process say about the thinking process that Milton Friedman followed like how that Milton Friedman followed like how that Milton Friedman followed like how he he he developed his ideas you mentioned developed his ideas you mentioned developed his ideas you mentioned there's a strong collaborative component there's a strong collaborative component there's a strong collaborative component but there's another story I saw but there's another story I saw but there's another story I saw about that I think his son recalled about that I think his son recalled about that I think his son recalled about the argument number system that about the argument number system that about the argument number system that you mentioned which I by the way if if you mentioned which I by the way if if you mentioned which I by the way if if you can explain that as a tangent of a you can explain that as a tangent of a you can explain that as a tangent of a tangent that's really awesome I think tangent that's really awesome I think tangent that's really awesome I think it's like number one if the other person it's like number one if the other person it's like number one if the other person is right number two means um you were is right number two means um you were is right number two means um you were right and I was wrong and the number right and I was wrong and the number right and I was wrong and the number system evolved in some ways to be quick system evolved in some ways to be quick system evolved in some ways to be quick and efficient but in other ways they and efficient but in other ways they and efficient but in other ways they also really clear about it so you know also really clear about it so you know also really clear about it so you know something like there's kind of like something like there's kind of like something like there's kind of like three reasons behind it first is if you three reasons behind it first is if you three reasons behind it first is if you use a number it reminds The Listener use a number it reminds The Listener use a number it reminds The Listener that it's really hard to say the words I that it's really hard to say the words I that it's really hard to say the words I was wrong so you're kind of calling on was wrong so you're kind of calling on was wrong so you're kind of calling on their sympathy Yeah by using the number their sympathy Yeah by using the number their sympathy Yeah by using the number reminding them that you're doing a hard reminding them that you're doing a hard reminding them that you're doing a hard thing and then it's also reminding them thing and then it's also reminding them thing and then it's also reminding them that you're in this family with code and that you're in this family with code and that you're in this family with code and so you're you're signaling your so you're you're signaling your so you're you're signaling your membership and your closeness and your membership and your closeness and your membership and your closeness and your love really and so it's it's supposed to love really and so it's it's supposed to love really and so it's it's supposed to be an easy way to disagree without like

be an easy way to disagree without like be an easy way to disagree without like breaking the relationship yeah so breaking the relationship yeah so breaking the relationship yeah so admitting you're wrong now comes with admitting you're wrong now comes with admitting you're wrong now comes with this warm fuzzy feeling yeah yeah and this warm fuzzy feeling yeah yeah and this warm fuzzy feeling yeah yeah and that's really I mean that's so powerful that's really I mean that's so powerful that's really I mean that's so powerful I think so much of the friction of human I think so much of the friction of human I think so much of the friction of human interaction could be boiled down to just interaction could be boiled down to just interaction could be boiled down to just not being able to admit that you're not being able to admit that you're not being able to admit that you're wrong efficiently and Qui quickly and wrong efficiently and Qui quickly and wrong efficiently and Qui quickly and regularly and just often and to be able regularly and just often and to be able regularly and just often and to be able to do that that's really that's really to do that that's really that's really to do that that's really that's really powerful yeah I think it's a really a powerful yeah I think it's a really a powerful yeah I think it's a really a really neat aspect um of their family really neat aspect um of their family really neat aspect um of their family life for sure anyway sorry that that's a life for sure anyway sorry that that's a life for sure anyway sorry that that's a that's a fun story but like can we just that's a fun story but like can we just that's a fun story but like can we just generalize to how he engag in generalize to how he engag in generalize to how he engag in collaboration how he developed his ideas collaboration how he developed his ideas collaboration how he developed his ideas is there like a thinking process so he is there like a thinking process so he is there like a thinking process so he taught at the University of Chicago and taught at the University of Chicago and taught at the University of Chicago and he tended to teach for six months and he tended to teach for six months and he tended to teach for six months and then have six months off and he spent then have six months off and he spent then have six months off and he spent the Summers um in New Hampshire or he the Summers um in New Hampshire or he the Summers um in New Hampshire or he had a right near that border they had had a right near that border they had had a right near that border they had two different houses and that to him was two different houses and that to him was two different houses and that to him was the deep thinking time and so when he's the deep thinking time and so when he's the deep thinking time and so when he's at Chicago he's teaching he's arguing at Chicago he's teaching he's arguing at Chicago he's teaching he's arguing you know some people loved his teaching you know some people loved his teaching you know some people loved his teaching style very much in charge very much style very much in charge very much style very much in charge very much keeping students on their toes keeping students on their toes keeping students on their toes confrontational others found it too much confrontational others found it too much confrontational others found it too much overwhelming kind of shut them down overwhelming kind of shut them down overwhelming kind of shut them down intellectually and they couldn't they intellectually and they couldn't they intellectually and they couldn't they couldn't cope with it and so I think it couldn't cope with it and so I think it couldn't cope with it and so I think it was kind of go time when he was teaching was kind of go time when he was teaching was kind of go time when he was teaching in that case he was that was a lot of in that case he was that was a lot of in that case he was that was a lot of social time interacting talking other social time interacting talking other social time interacting talking other professors going out and giving papers professors going out and giving papers professors going out and giving papers arguing with the people at Yale or arguing with the people at Yale or arguing with the people at Yale or Harvard then he would go and do these Harvard then he would go and do these Harvard then he would go and do these very deep Dives over the summer he would

very deep Dives over the summer he would very deep Dives over the summer he would also regularly do these trips to New also regularly do these trips to New also regularly do these trips to New York to see Anna Schwarz so his 12E York to see Anna Schwarz so his 12E York to see Anna Schwarz so his 12E collaborator they didn't have phone collaborator they didn't have phone collaborator they didn't have phone calls were really expensive they did calls were really expensive they did calls were really expensive they did have quite an extensive correspondence have quite an extensive correspondence have quite an extensive correspondence but then they would do these meetings so but then they would do these meetings so but then they would do these meetings so he would basically come in at the he would basically come in at the he would basically come in at the beginning of the summer going to raway beginning of the summer going to raway beginning of the summer going to raway stop in New York see Schwarz and then stop in New York see Schwarz and then stop in New York see Schwarz and then again on the way back to Chicago so again on the way back to Chicago so again on the way back to Chicago so you'd have these deep check-ins at that you'd have these deep check-ins at that you'd have these deep check-ins at that point the other thing that happened is point the other thing that happened is point the other thing that happened is people would come visit him in New people would come visit him in New people would come visit him in New Hampshire and so he would have these he Hampshire and so he would have these he Hampshire and so he would have these he had a studio separate from the house he had a studio separate from the house he had a studio separate from the house he would go and he would work and then at would go and he would work and then at would go and he would work and then at night his friends would come his friends night his friends would come his friends night his friends would come his friends are all economists there's a whole like are all economists there's a whole like are all economists there's a whole like cluster of economists they all clustered cluster of economists they all clustered cluster of economists they all clustered within driving distance of the Dartmouth within driving distance of the Dartmouth within driving distance of the Dartmouth Library so that they could get their Library so that they could get their Library so that they could get their hands on books and so they would come hands on books and so they would come hands on books and so they would come over and then they would argue and talk over and then they would argue and talk over and then they would argue and talk into the night so I think he did need into the night so I think he did need into the night so I think he did need that that deep focus time but it was not that that deep focus time but it was not that that deep focus time but it was not like he also lived a very engaged very like he also lived a very engaged very like he also lived a very engaged very embedded social life a part of which was embedded social life a part of which was embedded social life a part of which was his his his marriage uh is there something you could marriage uh is there something you could marriage uh is there something you could say about love about marriage about say about love about marriage about say about love about marriage about relationship that made the whole thing relationship that made the whole thing relationship that made the whole thing work is it was vibrant and they wrote a work is it was vibrant and they wrote a work is it was vibrant and they wrote a biography together they did I mean they biography together they did I mean they biography together they did I mean they were very complimentary they were kind were very complimentary they were kind were very complimentary they were kind of the ying and the Yang she was very of the ying and the Yang she was very of the ying and the Yang she was very introverted somewhat suspicious of introverted somewhat suspicious of introverted somewhat suspicious of others others others skeptical and he was extremely skeptical and he was extremely skeptical and he was extremely extroverted extroverted extroverted optimistic high energy and they also optimistic high energy and they also optimistic high energy and they also were at a time when it was really clear were at a time when it was really clear were at a time when it was really clear like for broader Society these are the

like for broader Society these are the like for broader Society these are the roles of a man these are the roles of a roles of a man these are the roles of a roles of a man these are the roles of a woman and they pretty much adopted those woman and they pretty much adopted those woman and they pretty much adopted those now now um Rose fredman did some very now now um Rose fredman did some very now now um Rose fredman did some very important economic work she's part of important economic work she's part of important economic work she's part of the early stages of the theory of the the early stages of the theory of the the early stages of the theory of the consumption function she didn't complete consumption function she didn't complete consumption function she didn't complete her degree because she really knew there her degree because she really knew there her degree because she really knew there wasn't if she wanted to be married and wasn't if she wanted to be married and wasn't if she wanted to be married and have children in the world she lived in have children in the world she lived in have children in the world she lived in there wasn't a real Pathway to also there wasn't a real Pathway to also there wasn't a real Pathway to also being an being an being an economist you know I do think that a lot economist you know I do think that a lot economist you know I do think that a lot of that it's not although it it feels of that it's not although it it feels of that it's not although it it feels very gendered like you know he's the man very gendered like you know he's the man very gendered like you know he's the man out in the world and she's in private out in the world and she's in private out in the world and she's in private it's interesting because her brother it's interesting because her brother it's interesting because her brother Aaron director was the same way he was Aaron director was the same way he was Aaron director was the same way he was very private man very shy very very private man very shy very very private man very shy very introverted and he exerted this like introverted and he exerted this like introverted and he exerted this like quiet intellectual influence on all of quiet intellectual influence on all of quiet intellectual influence on all of his friends so I think that was just his friends so I think that was just his friends so I think that was just kind of a family trait of being more kind of a family trait of being more kind of a family trait of being more quiet preferring to be behind the scenes quiet preferring to be behind the scenes quiet preferring to be behind the scenes it wouldn't have worked any other way it wouldn't have worked any other way it wouldn't have worked any other way because Freeman was so out there so um because Freeman was so out there so um because Freeman was so out there so um you know so extroverted and there's a you know so extroverted and there's a you know so extroverted and there's a bit of a sad thing she said she said um bit of a sad thing she said she said um bit of a sad thing she said she said um when I married Milton I lost half of my when I married Milton I lost half of my when I married Milton I lost half of my conversations when David came along I conversations when David came along I conversations when David came along I lost the other half so this a household lost the other half so this a household lost the other half so this a household that was just dominated by male voices that was just dominated by male voices that was just dominated by male voices and which she didn't have a lot of room and which she didn't have a lot of room and which she didn't have a lot of room what was tricky for me in my research is what was tricky for me in my research is what was tricky for me in my research is she didn't leave much of a trace she put she didn't leave much of a trace she put she didn't leave much of a trace she put together Milton Freeman's archive and together Milton Freeman's archive and together Milton Freeman's archive and she took herself out of it so I really she took herself out of it so I really she took herself out of it so I really had trouble finding her actual voice in had trouble finding her actual voice in had trouble finding her actual voice in the historical documents and she didn't the historical documents and she didn't the historical documents and she didn't want to leave that behind so um it's want to leave that behind so um it's want to leave that behind so um it's absolutely essential piece of his absolutely essential piece of his absolutely essential piece of his success because she's the one who pushed

success because she's the one who pushed success because she's the one who pushed him to do the Newsweek column to do free him to do the Newsweek column to do free him to do the Newsweek column to do free to choose and she really wrote to choose and she really wrote to choose and she really wrote capitalism and freedom she took all his capitalism and freedom she took all his capitalism and freedom she took all his random notes and she put them together random notes and she put them together random notes and she put them together into a book and that became this kind of into a book and that became this kind of into a book and that became this kind of testimony of his ideas but she shared testimony of his ideas but she shared testimony of his ideas but she shared many of his ideas and she you without many of his ideas and she you without many of his ideas and she you without when I think of fredman if you take away when I think of fredman if you take away when I think of fredman if you take away schwar Anna Schwarz if you take away schwar Anna Schwarz if you take away schwar Anna Schwarz if you take away Rose fredman if you take away the other Rose fredman if you take away the other Rose fredman if you take away the other woman who collaborated with him you have woman who collaborated with him you have woman who collaborated with him you have a much thinner resume than the one he a much thinner resume than the one he a much thinner resume than the one he actually has yeah it's always sad and it actually has yeah it's always sad and it actually has yeah it's always sad and it always makes me wonder about the the the always makes me wonder about the the the always makes me wonder about the the the the private secret conversations between the private secret conversations between the private secret conversations between partners yeah because they're you know partners yeah because they're you know partners yeah because they're you know they're they might not show up in the they're they might not show up in the they're they might not show up in the record but they probably influence the record but they probably influence the record but they probably influence the person more than almost anything else person more than almost anything else person more than almost anything else those quiet little those quiet little those quiet little conversations conversations conversations yeah if we can yeah if we can yeah if we can switch our path to another uh great mind switch our path to another uh great mind switch our path to another uh great mind of the 20th century IR of the 20th century IR of the 20th century IR Rand we talked about some of the Rand we talked about some of the Rand we talked about some of the similarities here about them being similarities here about them being similarities here about them being Fighters for freedom and uh Fighters for Fighters for freedom and uh Fighters for Fighters for freedom and uh Fighters for capitalism what is Iran's philosophy if capitalism what is Iran's philosophy if capitalism what is Iran's philosophy if you can give a big 10,000 summary of you can give a big 10,000 summary of you can give a big 10,000 summary of objectivism yeah so she called it objectivism yeah so she called it objectivism yeah so she called it objectivism objectivism objectivism she used to do this thing like I can I she used to do this thing like I can I she used to do this thing like I can I can stand on one foot and say it so goes can stand on one foot and say it so goes can stand on one foot and say it so goes something like uh epistemology reason something like uh epistemology reason something like uh epistemology reason ethics selfishness politics capitalism ethics selfishness politics capitalism ethics selfishness politics capitalism that was kind of how she summarized it

that was kind of how she summarized it that was kind of how she summarized it so what she did there's a couple things so what she did there's a couple things so what she did there's a couple things she did with objectivism first of all she did with objectivism first of all she did with objectivism first of all she says the key defining element of she says the key defining element of she says the key defining element of humanity is rationalism the rational humanity is rationalism the rational humanity is rationalism the rational faculty so that's what defines what a faculty so that's what defines what a faculty so that's what defines what a humanity is therefore there is an humanity is therefore there is an humanity is therefore there is an objective reality that we can access and objective reality that we can access and objective reality that we can access and know with our reason that's the know with our reason that's the know with our reason that's the objective epistemology and the one objective epistemology and the one objective epistemology and the one social and economic system that lets social and economic system that lets social and economic system that lets rationality flower and is based upon rationality flower and is based upon rationality flower and is based upon rationality is capitalism and then rationality is capitalism and then rationality is capitalism and then rationality only works in her view as an rationality only works in her view as an rationality only works in her view as an individual capacity and that rationality individual capacity and that rationality individual capacity and that rationality teaches that what you should do is teaches that what you should do is teaches that what you should do is pursue your interests and so she ends up pursue your interests and so she ends up pursue your interests and so she ends up calling that selfish calling that selfish calling that selfish now It's tricky because selfishness has now It's tricky because selfishness has now It's tricky because selfishness has so many strong and negative so many strong and negative so many strong and negative connotations and she meant I think connotations and she meant I think connotations and she meant I think something closer to like something closer to like something closer to like self-actualization because she really self-actualization because she really self-actualization because she really tried to create this idea and express tried to create this idea and express tried to create this idea and express the idea that to be truly selfish did the idea that to be truly selfish did the idea that to be truly selfish did not mean trampling on others it meant not mean trampling on others it meant not mean trampling on others it meant just being motivated by your own kind of just being motivated by your own kind of just being motivated by your own kind of internal measures and metrics and so in internal measures and metrics and so in internal measures and metrics and so in her fiction she tries to show this by by her fiction she tries to show this by by her fiction she tries to show this by by showing the false selfishness of some of showing the false selfishness of some of showing the false selfishness of some of uh Peter keading who's an architect who uh Peter keading who's an architect who uh Peter keading who's an architect who kind of steps over everybody to advance

kind of steps over everybody to advance kind of steps over everybody to advance his career and she says it's not true his career and she says it's not true his career and she says it's not true selfishness because true selfishness selfishness because true selfishness selfishness because true selfishness would recognize it's it's false to take would recognize it's it's false to take would recognize it's it's false to take others work and pass it off as your own others work and pass it off as your own others work and pass it off as your own now the other big piece of objectivism now the other big piece of objectivism now the other big piece of objectivism is a very approach that's really is a very approach that's really is a very approach that's really inspired inspired inspired and and related to Friedrich nich's idea and and related to Friedrich nich's idea and and related to Friedrich nich's idea of revaluing values or a genealogy of of revaluing values or a genealogy of of revaluing values or a genealogy of morals and so she morals and so she morals and so she says what's happened here is Western says what's happened here is Western says what's happened here is Western culture has converged on this idea of culture has converged on this idea of culture has converged on this idea of altruism as good being selfless and altruism as good being selfless and altruism as good being selfless and altruistic is good and this has led us altruistic is good and this has led us altruistic is good and this has led us to Communism and has led us to devalue to Communism and has led us to devalue to Communism and has led us to devalue the individual in favor of the the individual in favor of the the individual in favor of the collective so what we need is a new collective so what we need is a new collective so what we need is a new moral code code which elevates moral code code which elevates moral code code which elevates selfishness which elevates the selfishness which elevates the selfishness which elevates the individual and which takes all the individual and which takes all the individual and which takes all the things that we have been told are bad things that we have been told are bad things that we have been told are bad and actually says their values this is and actually says their values this is and actually says their values this is what she's trying to do with objectivism what she's trying to do with objectivism what she's trying to do with objectivism I mean it is about as ambitious of an I mean it is about as ambitious of an I mean it is about as ambitious of an intellectual project as there can be and intellectual project as there can be and intellectual project as there can be and that's what really draws people in yet that's what really draws people in yet that's what really draws people in yet at the same time she's flying in the at the same time she's flying in the at the same time she's flying in the face of the way human morals and ethics face of the way human morals and ethics face of the way human morals and ethics and societies have evolved and she's not and societies have evolved and she's not and societies have evolved and she's not able to singleand ly recreate them the able to singleand ly recreate them the able to singleand ly recreate them the way she wants them to be yeah I mean way she wants them to be yeah I mean way she wants them to be yeah I mean she's not doing herself any favors by she's not doing herself any favors by she's not doing herself any favors by like taking on the words and trying to like taking on the words and trying to like taking on the words and trying to Rebrand them completely like writing the Rebrand them completely like writing the Rebrand them completely like writing the virtue of selfishness it's like can we virtue of selfishness it's like can we virtue of selfishness it's like can we just call it self-actualization yeah uh

just call it self-actualization yeah uh just call it self-actualization yeah uh there's a negative connotation to there's a negative connotation to there's a negative connotation to selfishness and a positive connotation selfishness and a positive connotation selfishness and a positive connotation to altruism so she sometimes it seems to altruism so she sometimes it seems to altruism so she sometimes it seems takes on the hardest possible form of takes on the hardest possible form of takes on the hardest possible form of argument yeah I mean she had a argument yeah I mean she had a argument yeah I mean she had a a student and a you know who ended up a student and a you know who ended up a student and a you know who ended up being very close to her Nathaniel being very close to her Nathaniel being very close to her Nathaniel Brandon and he he was the Reverend Brandon and he he was the Reverend Brandon and he he was the Reverend adviser and he said can you please not adviser and he said can you please not adviser and he said can you please not use selfishness like just come up with use selfishness like just come up with use selfishness like just come up with another word but part of her liked it another word but part of her liked it another word but part of her liked it part of her wanted to provoke and part of her wanted to provoke and part of her wanted to provoke and unsettle she didn't want to give that up unsettle she didn't want to give that up unsettle she didn't want to give that up I mean people should listen to her her I mean people should listen to her her I mean people should listen to her her public public public talks the her her whole Aura way of talks the her her whole Aura way of talks the her her whole Aura way of being is provocative and she's a real being is provocative and she's a real being is provocative and she's a real powerhouse of an intellectual ual so powerhouse of an intellectual ual so powerhouse of an intellectual ual so like she loves the challenge and that like she loves the challenge and that like she loves the challenge and that just listening to her in itself is just just listening to her in itself is just just listening to her in itself is just inspiring cuz you could you could see inspiring cuz you could you could see inspiring cuz you could you could see the individualism ra radiate from her the individualism ra radiate from her the individualism ra radiate from her yeah I mean that was that was one of the yeah I mean that was that was one of the yeah I mean that was that was one of the things I found in in researching and things I found in in researching and things I found in in researching and writing about her like she's an writing about her like she's an writing about her like she's an incredibly unusual human being you know incredibly unusual human being you know incredibly unusual human being you know and so that was that was like her and so that was that was like her and so that was that was like her strength right because she's so unusual strength right because she's so unusual strength right because she's so unusual but it was also her downfall because she but it was also her downfall because she but it was also her downfall because she looked to herself as a model or to get looked to herself as a model or to get looked to herself as a model or to get insight about humanity and she never insight about humanity and she never insight about humanity and she never quite processed how different she was quite processed how different she was quite processed how different she was from other people so just because we from other people so just because we from other people so just because we talked about Milton Freedom so much can talked about Milton Freedom so much can talked about Milton Freedom so much can we just return to what to you given we just return to what to you given we just return to what to you given everything we've said is the interesting everything we've said is the interesting everything we've said is the interesting differences about IR Rand her

differences about IR Rand her differences about IR Rand her ideas related to um to Milton Freeman ideas related to um to Milton Freeman ideas related to um to Milton Freeman yeah I mean broadly we could put Milton yeah I mean broadly we could put Milton yeah I mean broadly we could put Milton Freeman and Ein Rand in some sort of Freeman and Ein Rand in some sort of Freeman and Ein Rand in some sort of category together but she category together but she category together but she has this focus on has this focus on has this focus on ethics and rationality and this desire ethics and rationality and this desire ethics and rationality and this desire to be revolutionary that's much stronger to be revolutionary that's much stronger to be revolutionary that's much stronger than fredman fredman wanted to overthrow than fredman fredman wanted to overthrow than fredman fredman wanted to overthrow the economic consensus you didn't want the economic consensus you didn't want the economic consensus you didn't want to overturn the moral basis of of to overturn the moral basis of of to overturn the moral basis of of Western Society so she's also she does Western Society so she's also she does Western Society so she's also she does something so in in one of Frank Knight's something so in in one of Frank Knight's something so in in one of Frank Knight's essays he talks about the ethics of essays he talks about the ethics of essays he talks about the ethics of competition and he says you basically competition and he says you basically competition and he says you basically cannot build and ethics out of cannot build and ethics out of cannot build and ethics out of competition because it would be competition because it would be competition because it would be monstrous to do so because it would say monstrous to do so because it would say monstrous to do so because it would say the winner of this competition is the winner of this competition is the winner of this competition is ethically right and that would open the ethically right and that would open the ethically right and that would open the door to sort of Might makes right and door to sort of Might makes right and door to sort of Might makes right and this is what fredman struggles with and this is what fredman struggles with and this is what fredman struggles with and he says I can't take capitalist outcomes he says I can't take capitalist outcomes he says I can't take capitalist outcomes as ethical unto themselves I can't do it as ethical unto themselves I can't do it as ethical unto themselves I can't do it doesn't feel right and and there's this doesn't feel right and and there's this doesn't feel right and and there's this line where Frank Knight says no one line where Frank Knight says no one line where Frank Knight says no one would ever do this and I was like oh would ever do this and I was like oh would ever do this and I was like oh Frank Knight you haven't read on ran yet Frank Knight you haven't read on ran yet Frank Knight you haven't read on ran yet you know my beer yeah you're a little you know my beer yeah you're a little you know my beer yeah you're a little too early because that's what she does too early because that's what she does too early because that's what she does she takes the outcomes of capitalism and she takes the outcomes of capitalism and she takes the outcomes of capitalism and of Market competition and says these of Market competition and says these of Market competition and says these have ethical meaning and this is where have ethical meaning and this is where have ethical meaning and this is where ethical meaning inheres and it is ethical meaning inheres and it is ethical meaning inheres and it is ethical to try to succeed and to succeed ethical to try to succeed and to succeed ethical to try to succeed and to succeed in a capitalist Society now what she's in a capitalist Society now what she's in a capitalist Society now what she's able to do is create a fictional World able to do is create a fictional World able to do is create a fictional World in which people succeed in her fictional

in which people succeed in her fictional in which people succeed in her fictional capitalist world through ethical capitalist world through ethical capitalist world through ethical behavior and so she doesn't really have behavior and so she doesn't really have behavior and so she doesn't really have to wrestle with a capitalist World in to wrestle with a capitalist World in to wrestle with a capitalist World in which people succeed through fraud and which people succeed through fraud and which people succeed through fraud and Corruption and uh you know uh all the Corruption and uh you know uh all the Corruption and uh you know uh all the other things that might go into other things that might go into other things that might go into someone's success so she creates the someone's success so she creates the someone's success so she creates the best possible take on success under best possible take on success under best possible take on success under capitalism and then she holds that up as capitalism and then she holds that up as capitalism and then she holds that up as an ideal and I think what's important is an ideal and I think what's important is an ideal and I think what's important is that so few people have done that and that so few people have done that and that so few people have done that and she comes at a time when everybody is she comes at a time when everybody is she comes at a time when everybody is emphasizing the downsides of capitalism emphasizing the downsides of capitalism emphasizing the downsides of capitalism and she says there's another way to look and she says there's another way to look and she says there's another way to look at it here are the good sides of at it here are the good sides of at it here are the good sides of capitalism and like you said she was capitalism and like you said she was capitalism and like you said she was operating which I really love the operating which I really love the operating which I really love the phrasing of that in the Mythic register phrasing of that in the Mythic register phrasing of that in the Mythic register yeah so she was constructing these yeah so she was constructing these yeah so she was constructing these characters these characters these characters these capitalists that are like the highest capitalists that are like the highest capitalists that are like the highest form these great heroic figures almost form these great heroic figures almost form these great heroic figures almost romanticizing them yeah yeah you romanticizing them yeah yeah you romanticizing them yeah yeah you mentioned we the living is one of the mentioned we the living is one of the mentioned we the living is one of the books that you like of hers uh the most books that you like of hers uh the most books that you like of hers uh the most but can we uh stay in the Mythic but can we uh stay in the Mythic but can we uh stay in the Mythic register with the Fountain Head and Al register with the Fountain Head and Al register with the Fountain Head and Al Shrugged uh what to you are some sort of Shrugged uh what to you are some sort of Shrugged uh what to you are some sort of memorable inspiring memorable inspiring memorable inspiring moments uh insightful moments from those moments uh insightful moments from those moments uh insightful moments from those books um that may be scenes or ideas books um that may be scenes or ideas books um that may be scenes or ideas that you take that you take that you take away uh from them that are important for away uh from them that are important for away uh from them that are important for people people people to understand yeah so the Fountain Head to understand yeah so the Fountain Head to understand yeah so the Fountain Head is this story of a struggling architect is this story of a struggling architect is this story of a struggling architect Howard roor and she kind of follows his

Howard roor and she kind of follows his Howard roor and she kind of follows his life and his career and the message is life and his career and the message is life and his career and the message is really it's a version of to thine own really it's a version of to thine own really it's a version of to thine own self be true right and Ro's designs are self be true right and Ro's designs are self be true right and Ro's designs are to Avant guard to Avant guard to Avant guard nobody appreciates him and he just keeps nobody appreciates him and he just keeps nobody appreciates him and he just keeps doing what he wants to do and is just doing what he wants to do and is just doing what he wants to do and is just focused on his own Visions his own focused on his own Visions his own focused on his own Visions his own genius I think that's been really genius I think that's been really genius I think that's been really inspiring to kind of creators of all inspiring to kind of creators of all inspiring to kind of creators of all types I think it's barely unrealistic as types I think it's barely unrealistic as types I think it's barely unrealistic as a portrait of human achievement but it's a portrait of human achievement but it's a portrait of human achievement but it's an aspirational idea I I mean one phrase an aspirational idea I I mean one phrase an aspirational idea I I mean one phrase that comes to mind is there's a that comes to mind is there's a that comes to mind is there's a character I forget which one who who is character I forget which one who who is character I forget which one who who is in some sort of adversarial relationship in some sort of adversarial relationship in some sort of adversarial relationship with Howard roor and says something to with Howard roor and says something to with Howard roor and says something to him like well Mr RoR what do you think him like well Mr RoR what do you think him like well Mr RoR what do you think of me and RoR says I don't think of you of me and RoR says I don't think of you of me and RoR says I don't think of you you know and that tan was the ideal you know and that tan was the ideal you know and that tan was the ideal you're not thinking of other people you're not thinking of other people you're not thinking of other people you're you're an island unto yourself you're you're an island unto yourself you're you're an island unto yourself you know you're focused on your own you know you're focused on your own you know you're focused on your own goals your own capacities and you're not goals your own capacities and you're not goals your own capacities and you're not doing it to impress other people or to doing it to impress other people or to doing it to impress other people or to be better than other people or to be better than other people or to be better than other people or to dominate other people you're doing it dominate other people you're doing it dominate other people you're doing it because you're sort of expressing your because you're sort of expressing your because you're sort of expressing your inner your inner soul in a way inner your inner soul in a way inner your inner soul in a way so that has been very captivating to so so that has been very captivating to so so that has been very captivating to so many and the Fountain Head is one of many and the Fountain Head is one of many and the Fountain Head is one of those books we talked about that causes those books we talked about that causes those books we talked about that causes you know people read it and they make you know people read it and they make you know people read it and they make changes in their life or they feel changes in their life or they feel changes in their life or they feel called to their their higher self and I called to their their higher self and I called to their their higher self and I think there's also the scene or or with think there's also the scene or or with think there's also the scene or or with the dean of architecture school that's the dean of architecture school that's the dean of architecture school that's speaking to what you're saying I think speaking to what you're saying I think speaking to what you're saying I think to me is inspiring so this is the dean to me is inspiring so this is the dean to me is inspiring so this is the dean of architecture that expels oror and it

of architecture that expels oror and it of architecture that expels oror and it brings him into a meeting thinking oror brings him into a meeting thinking oror brings him into a meeting thinking oror will plead for a second chance and the will plead for a second chance and the will plead for a second chance and the dean says that Ro's work is contrary to dean says that Ro's work is contrary to dean says that Ro's work is contrary to every principle we have tried to teach every principle we have tried to teach every principle we have tried to teach you contrary to all established you contrary to all established you contrary to all established precedents and traditions of art do you precedents and traditions of art do you precedents and traditions of art do you mean to tell me that you're thinking mean to tell me that you're thinking mean to tell me that you're thinking seriously of building that way when and seriously of building that way when and seriously of building that way when and if you are an architect and then in a if you are an architect and then in a if you are an architect and then in a gangster-like way roor says yes and then gangster-like way roor says yes and then gangster-like way roor says yes and then Dean asks my dear fellow who will let Dean asks my dear fellow who will let Dean asks my dear fellow who will let you and roor replies that's not the you and roor replies that's not the you and roor replies that's not the point the point is who will stop point the point is who will stop point the point is who will stop me yes I mean you know Ran's coming from me yes I mean you know Ran's coming from me yes I mean you know Ran's coming from communist Russia but it has a bit of the communist Russia but it has a bit of the communist Russia but it has a bit of the don't mess with with Texas flavor you don't mess with with Texas flavor you don't mess with with Texas flavor you know I might say that really resonates know I might say that really resonates know I might say that really resonates with this idea of anyone who's felt like with this idea of anyone who's felt like with this idea of anyone who's felt like they're you know fighting the powers they're you know fighting the powers they're you know fighting the powers that be um yeah it's interesting I I that be um yeah it's interesting I I that be um yeah it's interesting I I thought you might uh be going to the thought you might uh be going to the thought you might uh be going to the quote where he says something like I I quote where he says something like I I quote where he says something like I I inherit no tradition you know I stand at inherit no tradition you know I stand at inherit no tradition you know I stand at the beginning of one and I I really the beginning of one and I I really the beginning of one and I I really think Ran's thinking about herself you think Ran's thinking about herself you think Ran's thinking about herself you know when she says that she that she know when she says that she that she know when she says that she that she inherits nothing she stands at the start inherits nothing she stands at the start inherits nothing she stands at the start but you know the Fountain Head comes out but you know the Fountain Head comes out but you know the Fountain Head comes out in in the middle of World War II and in in the middle of World War II and in in the middle of World War II and it's it's not expect Rand is an unknown it's it's not expect Rand is an unknown it's it's not expect Rand is an unknown writer this is kind of a strange book writer this is kind of a strange book writer this is kind of a strange book it's you know classic story it's turned it's you know classic story it's turned it's you know classic story it's turned down by 12 Publishers before one takes a down by 12 Publishers before one takes a down by 12 Publishers before one takes a chance on it and Rand really loved this chance on it and Rand really loved this chance on it and Rand really loved this story the editor who read it said this story the editor who read it said this story the editor who read it said this book is great and his boss said no and book is great and his boss said no and book is great and his boss said no and he said if you don't take this book I'm he said if you don't take this book I'm he said if you don't take this book I'm quitting you know and so she you know quitting you know and so she you know quitting you know and so she you know she she idolized him for doing that so

she she idolized him for doing that so she she idolized him for doing that so they print it and it becomes the best they print it and it becomes the best they print it and it becomes the best seller just through word of mouth so seller just through word of mouth so seller just through word of mouth so it's not advertised doesn't it gets one it's not advertised doesn't it gets one it's not advertised doesn't it gets one good book review but it it people tell good book review but it it people tell good book review but it it people tell each other how much they like this book each other how much they like this book each other how much they like this book and it keeps Printing and selling out and it keeps Printing and selling out and it keeps Printing and selling out printings it's made into a movie and so printings it's made into a movie and so printings it's made into a movie and so it lands in this time when Americans are it lands in this time when Americans are it lands in this time when Americans are engaged in this great Collective engaged in this great Collective engaged in this great Collective Endeavor of World War II they're making Endeavor of World War II they're making Endeavor of World War II they're making all kinds of sacrifices for the all kinds of sacrifices for the all kinds of sacrifices for the collective and I think paradoxically as collective and I think paradoxically as collective and I think paradoxically as they do that they're drawn to this they do that they're drawn to this they do that they're drawn to this vision of someone who doesn't have to vision of someone who doesn't have to vision of someone who doesn't have to compromise at all you know who is compromise at all you know who is compromise at all you know who is leading their life exactly as they want leading their life exactly as they want leading their life exactly as they want to you know meanwhile they might be to you know meanwhile they might be to you know meanwhile they might be sleeping on an ocean liner because sleeping on an ocean liner because sleeping on an ocean liner because they've been drafted to fight in this they've been drafted to fight in this they've been drafted to fight in this war and they're reading the Fountain war and they're reading the Fountain war and they're reading the Fountain Head and they're feeling better about Head and they're feeling better about Head and they're feeling better about the themselves and so it's also really the themselves and so it's also really the themselves and so it's also really interesting The Fountain Head is hugely interesting The Fountain Head is hugely interesting The Fountain Head is hugely popular in India which is fascinating popular in India which is fascinating popular in India which is fascinating and you know talk to people about this and you know talk to people about this and you know talk to people about this and they basically say this book comes and they basically say this book comes and they basically say this book comes like a breath of fresh air into a very like a breath of fresh air into a very like a breath of fresh air into a very traditional and conformist culture and traditional and conformist culture and traditional and conformist culture and people just latch on to it and they love people just latch on to it and they love people just latch on to it and they love it you know and it gives them that it you know and it gives them that it you know and it gives them that feeling of freedom and possibility that feeling of freedom and possibility that feeling of freedom and possibility that they're hoping for yeah I mean it really they're hoping for yeah I mean it really they're hoping for yeah I mean it really is a book Alice rug can be a bit of that is a book Alice rug can be a bit of that is a book Alice rug can be a bit of that too but it's more more of the philosophy too but it's more more of the philosophy too but it's more more of the philosophy objectivism the details and the Nuance objectivism the details and the Nuance objectivism the details and the Nuance of that seeps into outla Shrugged the of that seeps into outla Shrugged the of that seeps into outla Shrugged the The Fountain Head is very much like a The Fountain Head is very much like a The Fountain Head is very much like a thing that makes you change the path of thing that makes you change the path of thing that makes you change the path of your life yeah and that I mean that's your life yeah and that I mean that's your life yeah and that I mean that's beautiful to see that books can have beautiful to see that books can have beautiful to see that books can have that power and you know Rand knew that that power and you know Rand knew that that power and you know Rand knew that she was doing that and she she knew what she was doing that and she she knew what she was doing that and she she knew what she was doing you know she this wasn't she was doing you know she this wasn't she was doing you know she this wasn't an accident and people say oh she's a

an accident and people say oh she's a an accident and people say oh she's a bad writer oh her characters are so bad writer oh her characters are so bad writer oh her characters are so heavy-handed you know she started as a heavy-handed you know she started as a heavy-handed you know she started as a screenwriter she started as a someone screenwriter she started as a someone screenwriter she started as a someone who analyzed films for movie studios she who analyzed films for movie studios she who analyzed films for movie studios she knew exactly how to manipulate plot and knew exactly how to manipulate plot and knew exactly how to manipulate plot and character and drama and she also knew character and drama and she also knew character and drama and she also knew that she was writing you know people say that she was writing you know people say that she was writing you know people say oh Rand is for you know adolescence oh Rand is for you know adolescence oh Rand is for you know adolescence adoles teenagers love Rand and that's adoles teenagers love Rand and that's adoles teenagers love Rand and that's kind of who she was writing for and she kind of who she was writing for and she kind of who she was writing for and she said you know I'm writing for people as said you know I'm writing for people as said you know I'm writing for people as they start out on their life and they're they start out on their life and they're they start out on their life and they're thinking about who they want to be um so thinking about who they want to be um so thinking about who they want to be um so she's not she's not she's not writing you know for the weary middle writing you know for the weary middle writing you know for the weary middle age she's writing for the young who are age she's writing for the young who are age she's writing for the young who are looking for inspiration you know people looking for inspiration you know people looking for inspiration you know people say that to me sometimes about certain say that to me sometimes about certain say that to me sometimes about certain books like books like books like Rand but also about The Alchemist I know Rand but also about The Alchemist I know Rand but also about The Alchemist I know a lot of people For Whom The Alchemist a lot of people For Whom The Alchemist a lot of people For Whom The Alchemist and they're adults and they brilliant and they're adults and they brilliant and they're adults and they brilliant people The Alchemist changed their life people The Alchemist changed their life people The Alchemist changed their life and the same can be said about the and the same can be said about the and the same can be said about the Fountain Head yeah Fountain Head yeah Fountain Head yeah I and I sometimes get criticized for I and I sometimes get criticized for I and I sometimes get criticized for using words that are too using words that are too using words that are too simple I think simple words can uh can simple I think simple words can uh can simple I think simple words can uh can have power and the cliche thing have power and the cliche thing have power and the cliche thing sometimes needs to be said as sometimes sometimes needs to be said as sometimes sometimes needs to be said as sometimes if effectively needs to be said in an if effectively needs to be said in an if effectively needs to be said in an over-the-top way in the uh in the Mythic over-the-top way in the uh in the Mythic over-the-top way in the uh in the Mythic register because that's the thing that register because that's the thing that register because that's the thing that resonates with us yeah cuz we we are resonates with us yeah cuz we we are resonates with us yeah cuz we we are like Heroes of Our Own Story and we need like Heroes of Our Own Story and we need like Heroes of Our Own Story and we need to hear that message sometimes to take to hear that message sometimes to take to hear that message sometimes to take the Bold step to take the risk to take the Bold step to take the risk to take the Bold step to take the risk to take the leap yeah and I mean the other thing the leap yeah and I mean the other thing the leap yeah and I mean the other thing she she knew she was doing kind of

she she knew she was doing kind of she she knew she was doing kind of propaganda in a way she was like I'm propaganda in a way she was like I'm propaganda in a way she was like I'm doing Pro capitalist propaganda she has doing Pro capitalist propaganda she has doing Pro capitalist propaganda she has a degree from the University of a degree from the University of a degree from the University of Leningrad you know she's raised up in Leningrad you know she's raised up in Leningrad you know she's raised up in Soviet Russ Soviet Russ Soviet Russ she said we need to present the case for she said we need to present the case for she said we need to present the case for the other side in the same way and the other side in the same way and the other side in the same way and that's what she did why do you think that's what she did why do you think that's what she did why do you think she's so divisive people either love her she's so divisive people either love her she's so divisive people either love her or hate her I mean I think it's because or hate her I mean I think it's because or hate her I mean I think it's because of that Purity that I'm willing to say of that Purity that I'm willing to say of that Purity that I'm willing to say sort of you get what you deserve and sort of you get what you deserve and sort of you get what you deserve and that kind of lack of that kind of lack of that kind of lack of Charity and and part of that in her work Charity and and part of that in her work Charity and and part of that in her work is because she creates this fictional is because she creates this fictional is because she creates this fictional world where she can set everything up world where she can set everything up world where she can set everything up just so and so you don't have have um just so and so you don't have have um just so and so you don't have have um contingency or accident or bad luck or contingency or accident or bad luck or contingency or accident or bad luck or you don't really have a lot of children you don't really have a lot of children you don't really have a lot of children you don't have handicapped you know you you don't have handicapped you know you you don't have handicapped you know you you just have this idealized world and I you just have this idealized world and I you just have this idealized world and I think it's really infuriating for people think it's really infuriating for people think it's really infuriating for people who feel that so inaccurate how can you who feel that so inaccurate how can you who feel that so inaccurate how can you be deriving a social theory and be deriving a social theory and be deriving a social theory and philosophy around this and how can you philosophy around this and how can you philosophy around this and how can you be missing what seems to many people be missing what seems to many people be missing what seems to many people she's missing the kind of ethical she's missing the kind of ethical she's missing the kind of ethical instinct or the altruistic or charitable instinct or the altruistic or charitable instinct or the altruistic or charitable Instinct and so they just become enraged Instinct and so they just become enraged Instinct and so they just become enraged at that and they don't they don't want at that and they don't they don't want at that and they don't they don't want to see anyone go that far and they're to see anyone go that far and they're to see anyone go that far and they're outraged that someone went that far you outraged that someone went that far you outraged that someone went that far you know that did the thing that Frank know that did the thing that Frank know that did the thing that Frank Knight said no one would do um yeah it's Knight said no one would do um yeah it's Knight said no one would do um yeah it's just it it's very unsettling would you just it it's very unsettling would you just it it's very unsettling would you say that's her main blind spot the main say that's her main blind spot the main say that's her main blind spot the main flaw of objectivism is just how black flaw of objectivism is just how black flaw of objectivism is just how black and white it Paints the world or if not

and white it Paints the world or if not and white it Paints the world or if not mean what what what would you say are mean what what what would you say are mean what what what would you say are the flaws of the flaws of the flaws of objectivism so I mean the big flaw is objectivism so I mean the big flaw is objectivism so I mean the big flaw is that it's justified through a fictional that it's justified through a fictional that it's justified through a fictional world you know it's not world you know it's not world you know it's not justified through reference to the real justified through reference to the real justified through reference to the real world you know it's it's not empirical world you know it's it's not empirical world you know it's it's not empirical in in in a way it's not um and and Rand in in in a way it's not um and and Rand in in in a way it's not um and and Rand herself would say this she's not writing herself would say this she's not writing herself would say this she's not writing about things how they are but how they about things how they are but how they about things how they are but how they should be and should be and should be and so that so that so that idealism just really idealism just really idealism just really undermines it as a mechanism to undermines it as a mechanism to undermines it as a mechanism to understand where we're actually living understand where we're actually living understand where we're actually living and that is a big contrast with Milton and that is a big contrast with Milton and that is a big contrast with Milton Freeman were who would focus on how Freeman were who would focus on how Freeman were who would focus on how things are versus how things should be things are versus how things should be things are versus how things should be and then I think it's the problem of and then I think it's the problem of and then I think it's the problem of elevating rationality over any other elevating rationality over any other elevating rationality over any other mode of insight or thinking and so what mode of insight or thinking and so what mode of insight or thinking and so what happens in Ran's life and I describe happens in Ran's life and I describe happens in Ran's life and I describe this in some detail in the book is she this in some detail in the book is she this in some detail in the book is she essentially creates a cult of reason essentially creates a cult of reason essentially creates a cult of reason around her around her around her and people who are drawn into this cult and people who are drawn into this cult and people who are drawn into this cult it's called the collective it's a group it's called the collective it's a group it's called the collective it's a group of young people in New York City who are of young people in New York City who are of young people in New York City who are drawn to her work drawn to her work drawn to her work and she's already famous but she's and she's already famous but she's and she's already famous but she's writing Atlas Shrug and so she's writing Atlas Shrug and so she's writing Atlas Shrug and so she's sharing drafts of Atlas Shrug as she sharing drafts of Atlas Shrug as she sharing drafts of Atlas Shrug as she goes along and one of the members of the goes along and one of the members of the goes along and one of the members of the collective to bring all of this together collective to bring all of this together collective to bring all of this together is Alan Greenspan who later be head of is Alan Greenspan who later be head of is Alan Greenspan who later be head of the Federal Reserve and he's incredibly the Federal Reserve and he's incredibly the Federal Reserve and he's incredibly taken with her he's one of these people taken with her he's one of these people taken with her he's one of these people who says I was a narrow technical who says I was a narrow technical who says I was a narrow technical thinker I never thought about ethics or thinker I never thought about ethics or thinker I never thought about ethics or politics or anything bigger until I met politics or anything bigger until I met politics or anything bigger until I met a Randon she really opened my mind so

a Randon she really opened my mind so a Randon she really opened my mind so he's part of this Titanic group but over he's part of this Titanic group but over he's part of this Titanic group but over time in this Titanic group they think time in this Titanic group they think time in this Titanic group they think themselves we are all individualists themselves we are all individualists themselves we are all individualists we're dedicated to individualism and we're dedicated to individualism and we're dedicated to individualism and capitalism we're different than capitalism we're different than capitalism we're different than everybody else over time they all come everybody else over time they all come everybody else over time they all come to share IR Ran's views and opinions on to share IR Ran's views and opinions on to share IR Ran's views and opinions on everything from music to Art to clothes everything from music to Art to clothes everything from music to Art to clothes you know there's she gets a dining room you know there's she gets a dining room you know there's she gets a dining room table and a bunch of them get the same table and a bunch of them get the same table and a bunch of them get the same dining room table um and it becomes dining room table um and it becomes dining room table um and it becomes incredibly conformist because they've incredibly conformist because they've incredibly conformist because they've all believe they're acting rationally all believe they're acting rationally all believe they're acting rationally and they believe that to act rationally and they believe that to act rationally and they believe that to act rationally is to agree with Ein Rand and they is to agree with Ein Rand and they is to agree with Ein Rand and they believe there's no other way to make believe there's no other way to make believe there's no other way to make decisions than rationality and so to decisions than rationality and so to decisions than rationality and so to disagree with her is to be irrational disagree with her is to be irrational disagree with her is to be irrational they don't want to be irrational so they don't want to be irrational so they don't want to be irrational so people get really caught up in this very people get really caught up in this very people get really caught up in this very damaging cult-like circle around her damaging cult-like circle around her damaging cult-like circle around her Plus for for a cult of reason they get Plus for for a cult of reason they get Plus for for a cult of reason they get awfully emotional when there's any awfully emotional when there's any awfully emotional when there's any disagreement disagreement disagreement with I mean it's it's it's kind of with I mean it's it's it's kind of with I mean it's it's it's kind of hilarious it's absurd but it's hilarious it's absurd but it's hilarious it's absurd but it's um I mean it's also beautiful to watch um I mean it's also beautiful to watch um I mean it's also beautiful to watch this this singular figure we've talked this this singular figure we've talked this this singular figure we've talked about several singular figures a like about several singular figures a like about several singular figures a like Frank right that shakes up the world Frank right that shakes up the world Frank right that shakes up the world with her ideas yeah and of course it with her ideas yeah and of course it with her ideas yeah and of course it would form a cult and of course that would form a cult and of course that would form a cult and of course that cult would be full of contradictions and cult would be full of contradictions and cult would be full of contradictions and hypocrisies yeah I mean it's amazing hypocrisies yeah I mean it's amazing hypocrisies yeah I mean it's amazing there's um so Murray rothbard is a there's um so Murray rothbard is a there's um so Murray rothbard is a famous Anarchist falls into the irran famous Anarchist falls into the irran famous Anarchist falls into the irran cult and then he disagrees and it

cult and then he disagrees and it cult and then he disagrees and it there's some type of show trial where he there's some type of show trial where he there's some type of show trial where he told he's wrong about everything and told he's wrong about everything and told he's wrong about everything and then he has a little sort of pseudo Cult then he has a little sort of pseudo Cult then he has a little sort of pseudo Cult of his own and two of his cult members of his own and two of his cult members of his own and two of his cult members switch over to IR Rand and then one of switch over to IR Rand and then one of switch over to IR Rand and then one of them to show the G to gesture their them to show the G to gesture their them to show the G to gesture their breaking of their relationship mails him breaking of their relationship mails him breaking of their relationship mails him a dollar bill that's been torn in half I a dollar bill that's been torn in half I a dollar bill that's been torn in half I mean this is high theatrics mean this is high theatrics mean this is high theatrics [Laughter] [Laughter] [Laughter] right okay sticking on the drama in the right okay sticking on the drama in the right okay sticking on the drama in the theatrics uh who was Nathaniel Brandon theatrics uh who was Nathaniel Brandon theatrics uh who was Nathaniel Brandon oh yes can you uh take me through the oh yes can you uh take me through the oh yes can you uh take me through the art of ir Ran's relationship with art of ir Ran's relationship with art of ir Ran's relationship with Nathaniel Brandon to their dramatic Nathaniel Brandon to their dramatic Nathaniel Brandon to their dramatic falling out in 1968 yes so so after the falling out in 1968 yes so so after the falling out in 1968 yes so so after the Fountain Head um The Fountain Head is Fountain Head um The Fountain Head is Fountain Head um The Fountain Head is auction to be a is sold to be a film so auction to be a is sold to be a film so auction to be a is sold to be a film so irran moves to Hollywood where she's irran moves to Hollywood where she's irran moves to Hollywood where she's going to help in the writing of the film going to help in the writing of the film going to help in the writing of the film she wants a lot of creative control and she wants a lot of creative control and she wants a lot of creative control and she's also still working in she's also still working in she's also still working in screenwriting and things like this and screenwriting and things like this and screenwriting and things like this and so she gets a letter from a uh there's a so she gets a letter from a uh there's a so she gets a letter from a uh there's a Canadian student who's written to her Canadian student who's written to her Canadian student who's written to her several times and then he writes again several times and then he writes again several times and then he writes again and he says I'm at UCLA and she's like and he says I'm at UCLA and she's like and he says I'm at UCLA and she's like young man you're so full of error why young man you're so full of error why young man you're so full of error why don't you come visit me and and I'll don't you come visit me and and I'll don't you come visit me and and I'll straighten you out so he comes and they straighten you out so he comes and they straighten you out so he comes and they have this real meeting of the minds they have this real meeting of the minds they have this real meeting of the minds they talk all night he comes again he brings talk all night he comes again he brings talk all night he comes again he brings his girlfriend she loves him and they his girlfriend she loves him and they his girlfriend she loves him and they start this very intense relationship of start this very intense relationship of start this very intense relationship of spending every weekend at her house spending every weekend at her house spending every weekend at her house basically staying up all night talking basically staying up all night talking basically staying up all night talking about ideas he becomes completely about ideas he becomes completely about ideas he becomes completely converted to the objectivist worldview converted to the objectivist worldview converted to the objectivist worldview um ran begins counseling him and his um ran begins counseling him and his um ran begins counseling him and his girlfriend about their relationship you

girlfriend about their relationship you girlfriend about their relationship you know very intense thing then eventually know very intense thing then eventually know very intense thing then eventually they graduate from college and they both they graduate from college and they both they graduate from college and they both enroll in a graduate program in Columbia enroll in a graduate program in Columbia enroll in a graduate program in Columbia and they leave and after they've left and they leave and after they've left and they leave and after they've left irand is just irand is just irand is just bed and within a few months she packs up bed and within a few months she packs up bed and within a few months she packs up her home and she moves to New York here her home and she moves to New York here her home and she moves to New York here I am I like New York better and so that I am I like New York better and so that I am I like New York better and so that becomes the seedbed of the collective becomes the seedbed of the collective becomes the seedbed of the collective and the Brandon they get married they and the Brandon they get married they and the Brandon they get married they change their name to Brandon they've change their name to Brandon they've change their name to Brandon they've never publicly spoken on this but many never publicly spoken on this but many never publicly spoken on this but many people have pointed out it has the word people have pointed out it has the word people have pointed out it has the word Rand and in the name so it's some type Rand and in the name so it's some type Rand and in the name so it's some type of acknowledgement of how important she of acknowledgement of how important she of acknowledgement of how important she is to them and time goes on and romantic is to them and time goes on and romantic is to them and time goes on and romantic feelings develop between Ein Rand and feelings develop between Ein Rand and feelings develop between Ein Rand and Nathaniel Brandon who's some 20 years or Nathaniel Brandon who's some 20 years or Nathaniel Brandon who's some 20 years or Junior and they discuss them and they Junior and they discuss them and they Junior and they discuss them and they realize that rationality has led them to realize that rationality has led them to realize that rationality has led them to the conclusion that they should be the conclusion that they should be the conclusion that they should be lovers right right they've rationally lovers right right they've rationally lovers right right they've rationally decided this but because they're decided this but because they're decided this but because they're rational they um need the consent or at rational they um need the consent or at rational they um need the consent or at least to inform their Partners they're least to inform their Partners they're least to inform their Partners they're both married they're both married so both married they're both married so both married they're both married so they call a meeting and they call a meeting and they call a meeting and they obtain the consent or maybe simply they obtain the consent or maybe simply they obtain the consent or maybe simply inform the others of the rationality of inform the others of the rationality of inform the others of the rationality of the choice and then they say but this is the choice and then they say but this is the choice and then they say but this is only going to be an intellectual only going to be an intellectual only going to be an intellectual relationship but we'd like a few hours relationship but we'd like a few hours relationship but we'd like a few hours alone each week and we don't want to be alone each week and we don't want to be alone each week and we don't want to be deceptive so we want you to know and deceptive so we want you to know and deceptive so we want you to know and improve of this so the spouse is bought improve of this so the spouse is bought improve of this so the spouse is bought into rationality know and into rationality know and into rationality know and approve one thing leads to another it approve one thing leads to another it approve one thing leads to another it becomes a full romantic and sexual becomes a full romantic and sexual becomes a full romantic and sexual relationship and although it's open with

relationship and although it's open with relationship and although it's open with in these four people it is not open more in these four people it is not open more in these four people it is not open more broadly and so in all these meetings of broadly and so in all these meetings of broadly and so in all these meetings of the collective got Allan Greenspan all the collective got Allan Greenspan all the collective got Allan Greenspan all these other people coming up you know these other people coming up you know these other people coming up you know drinking coffee all night talking drinking coffee all night talking drinking coffee all night talking talking they all know that Nathaniel talking they all know that Nathaniel talking they all know that Nathaniel Brandon is objectivist number one they Brandon is objectivist number one they Brandon is objectivist number one they don't know that there's a romantic and don't know that there's a romantic and don't know that there's a romantic and sexual relationship happening it's kept sexual relationship happening it's kept sexual relationship happening it's kept a secret and then when Atlas Shrug comes a secret and then when Atlas Shrug comes a secret and then when Atlas Shrug comes out it's panned by reviewers people out it's panned by reviewers people out it's panned by reviewers people absolutely hate this book and Rand is absolutely hate this book and Rand is absolutely hate this book and Rand is not Howard roor she falls into a deep not Howard roor she falls into a deep not Howard roor she falls into a deep depression because her Masterpiece has depression because her Masterpiece has depression because her Masterpiece has been rejected and so then the Romantic been rejected and so then the Romantic been rejected and so then the Romantic relationship ends but the close personal relationship ends but the close personal relationship ends but the close personal relationship continues and then over relationship continues and then over relationship continues and then over time Brandon who's still married to his time Brandon who's still married to his time Brandon who's still married to his wife begins an affair with another young wife begins an affair with another young wife begins an affair with another young woman and at this point he has started woman and at this point he has started woman and at this point he has started the Nathaniel Brandon Institute to teach the Nathaniel Brandon Institute to teach the Nathaniel Brandon Institute to teach objectivism and he's making good money objectivism and he's making good money objectivism and he's making good money he's becoming quite famous she supported he's becoming quite famous she supported he's becoming quite famous she supported the Institute she supported it and and the Institute she supported it and and the Institute she supported it and and at first it was to help her in her at first it was to help her in her at first it was to help her in her depression he said the world needs to depression he said the world needs to depression he said the world needs to recognize your Genius they missed Atlas recognize your Genius they missed Atlas recognize your Genius they missed Atlas Shrugged but I'm going to teach them I Shrugged but I'm going to teach them I Shrugged but I'm going to teach them I will bring the message and it's very will bring the message and it's very will bring the message and it's very successful it becomes its own business successful it becomes its own business successful it becomes its own business it has a newsletter it's a whole world it has a newsletter it's a whole world it has a newsletter it's a whole world so so that small cult around irand so so that small cult around irand so so that small cult around irand expands to this whole social network and expands to this whole social network and expands to this whole social network and it's very much a piece with this it's very much a piece with this it's very much a piece with this burgeoning conservative movement burgeoning conservative movement burgeoning conservative movement objectivists are involved in criticizing objectivists are involved in criticizing objectivists are involved in criticizing the draft and you know there's kind of a the draft and you know there's kind of a the draft and you know there's kind of a Libertarian objectivist world going on Libertarian objectivist world going on Libertarian objectivist world going on all of this is happening in the meantime all of this is happening in the meantime all of this is happening in the meantime the Brandon has found a new partner and

the Brandon has found a new partner and the Brandon has found a new partner and he does but he doesn't tell on ran this he does but he doesn't tell on ran this he does but he doesn't tell on ran this because he knows she'll be upset and so because he knows she'll be upset and so because he knows she'll be upset and so it goes on for it goes on for it goes on for years years years and and and hran knows something is and and and hran knows something is and and and hran knows something is going on but she can't quite figure it going on but she can't quite figure it going on but she can't quite figure it out and it finally Barbara Brandon says out and it finally Barbara Brandon says out and it finally Barbara Brandon says to Nathaniel Brandon you know you have to Nathaniel Brandon you know you have to Nathaniel Brandon you know you have to tell her this has just G gone on too to tell her this has just G gone on too to tell her this has just G gone on too long so she finds out and the whole long so she finds out and the whole long so she finds out and the whole thing blows up and she Exiles him and thing blows up and she Exiles him and thing blows up and she Exiles him and she breaks off contact with him and she breaks off contact with him and she breaks off contact with him and nobody's ever told what happens it's nobody's ever told what happens it's nobody's ever told what happens it's called The Objective Schism you know called The Objective Schism you know called The Objective Schism you know objectivism breaks into two because some objectivism breaks into two because some objectivism breaks into two because some people people people say how could irran do anything wrong say how could irran do anything wrong say how could irran do anything wrong and other people say what is this letter and other people say what is this letter and other people say what is this letter all about and what did Nathaniel Brandon all about and what did Nathaniel Brandon all about and what did Nathaniel Brandon do and I'm not just going to take her do and I'm not just going to take her do and I'm not just going to take her word for it I need more information and word for it I need more information and word for it I need more information and then a bunch of people you read all the then a bunch of people you read all the then a bunch of people you read all the accounts of this a bunch of people are accounts of this a bunch of people are accounts of this a bunch of people are like okay they were having an affair and like okay they were having an affair and like okay they were having an affair and a bunch of other people are like no that a bunch of other people are like no that a bunch of other people are like no that couldn't possibly be happening you know couldn't possibly be happening you know couldn't possibly be happening you know and so and so and so the whole thing breaks up but but what I the whole thing breaks up but but what I the whole thing breaks up but but what I you know argue in my book is actually you know argue in my book is actually you know argue in my book is actually this is to the benefit of rand's ideas this is to the benefit of rand's ideas this is to the benefit of rand's ideas because Rand herself was so controlling because Rand herself was so controlling because Rand herself was so controlling over her ideas and now that she steps over her ideas and now that she steps over her ideas and now that she steps back from a public role you know back from a public role you know back from a public role you know objectivism flows into the student objectivism flows into the student objectivism flows into the student libertarian movement some objectivists libertarian movement some objectivists libertarian movement some objectivists become conservatives it just kind of become conservatives it just kind of become conservatives it just kind of spreads out more generally and you don't spreads out more generally and you don't spreads out more generally and you don't have to drink the Kool-Aid you don't have to drink the Kool-Aid you don't have to drink the Kool-Aid you don't have to take the official course have to take the official course have to take the official course Nathaniel Brandon goes on to be part of Nathaniel Brandon goes on to be part of Nathaniel Brandon goes on to be part of the self-esteem movement you know sort the self-esteem movement you know sort the self-esteem movement you know sort of human potential movement

of human potential movement of human potential movement California and Ein ran lives you know California and Ein ran lives you know California and Ein ran lives you know another another 10 years or so but she another another 10 years or so but she another another 10 years or so but she doesn't do major work after that so doesn't do major work after that so doesn't do major work after that so since since we were talking about some since since we were talking about some since since we were talking about some of of of the uh although rationalized some the uh although rationalized some the uh although rationalized some strange sexual Partnerships that they're strange sexual Partnerships that they're strange sexual Partnerships that they're engaged in uh I have to ask about the engaged in uh I have to ask about the engaged in uh I have to ask about the Fountain Head and the the quote unquote Fountain Head and the the quote unquote Fountain Head and the the quote unquote rape scene in the F head uh was she rape scene in the F head uh was she rape scene in the F head uh was she intending to add that there to be intending to add that there to be intending to add that there to be controversial how are we supposed to controversial how are we supposed to controversial how are we supposed to read into it uh is it a glimpse into read into it uh is it a glimpse into read into it uh is it a glimpse into Iran Iran Iran sexuality and maybe broadly we can say sexuality and maybe broadly we can say sexuality and maybe broadly we can say what was her view on this on sexuality what was her view on this on sexuality what was her view on this on sexuality on sex on power dynamics and on sex on power dynamics and on sex on power dynamics and relationships yeah I mean there's also relationships yeah I mean there's also relationships yeah I mean there's also an objectivist theory of sexuality that an objectivist theory of sexuality that an objectivist theory of sexuality that probably the least convincing of all the probably the least convincing of all the probably the least convincing of all the parts of objectivism and it goes parts of objectivism and it goes parts of objectivism and it goes something like your sexual desires something like your sexual desires something like your sexual desires express your highest express your highest express your highest values and they are related in some ways values and they are related in some ways values and they are related in some ways to your rationality right which is also to your rationality right which is also to your rationality right which is also related to your highest value so so for related to your highest value so so for related to your highest value so so for her that her that her that explained her attraction to Nathaniel explained her attraction to Nathaniel explained her attraction to Nathaniel Brandon and Nathaniel bra Brandon's Brandon and Nathaniel bra Brandon's Brandon and Nathaniel bra Brandon's attraction to her was a function of attraction to her was a function of attraction to her was a function of their highest values and in fact Brandon their highest values and in fact Brandon their highest values and in fact Brandon emed this so deeply that the fact that emed this so deeply that the fact that emed this so deeply that the fact that he was later drawn sexually to a woman he was later drawn sexually to a woman he was later drawn sexually to a woman who was not particularly who was not particularly who was not particularly accomplished but was beautiful caused accomplished but was beautiful caused accomplished but was beautiful caused him deep anguish and guilt for me non him deep anguish and guilt for me non him deep anguish and guilt for me non objectivist so this is the objectivist objectivist so this is the objectivist objectivist so this is the objectivist theory then the gender politics are just

theory then the gender politics are just theory then the gender politics are just crazy and we have to kind of back up and crazy and we have to kind of back up and crazy and we have to kind of back up and think okay so who is an Rand she's born think okay so who is an Rand she's born think okay so who is an Rand she's born in Lisa rosenb in Russia she is someone in Lisa rosenb in Russia she is someone in Lisa rosenb in Russia she is someone who stands out from the crowd from the who stands out from the crowd from the who stands out from the crowd from the beginning she never really fits in she's beginning she never really fits in she's beginning she never really fits in she's not conventionally Beautiful by any not conventionally Beautiful by any not conventionally Beautiful by any stretch of the imagination she struggles stretch of the imagination she struggles stretch of the imagination she struggles with her weight and she doesn't consider with her weight and she doesn't consider with her weight and she doesn't consider herself to have a beautiful face she's herself to have a beautiful face she's herself to have a beautiful face she's very independent she meets none of the very independent she meets none of the very independent she meets none of the metrics of traditional femininity at all metrics of traditional femininity at all metrics of traditional femininity at all she finds love with a man who is very she finds love with a man who is very she finds love with a man who is very handsome but very handsome but very handsome but very passive yet she writes in all her passive yet she writes in all her passive yet she writes in all her fiction about strong manly Heroes so fiction about strong manly Heroes so fiction about strong manly Heroes so this seems to be like a projection the this seems to be like a projection the this seems to be like a projection the man she's actually with is not a strong man she's actually with is not a strong man she's actually with is not a strong manly hero the heroes she writes about manly hero the heroes she writes about manly hero the heroes she writes about she probably wouldn't be able to be in she probably wouldn't be able to be in she probably wouldn't be able to be in the same room with them for more than the same room with them for more than the same room with them for more than one minute before they got in a raging one minute before they got in a raging one minute before they got in a raging argument right and then then she argument right and then then she argument right and then then she develops this theory about women and men develops this theory about women and men develops this theory about women and men in that a woman a woman should worship in that a woman a woman should worship in that a woman a woman should worship her man and a woman finds her true her man and a woman finds her true her man and a woman finds her true expression in worshiping the man she's expression in worshiping the man she's expression in worshiping the man she's with so again this is not at all how with so again this is not at all how with so again this is not at all how einan lives her life this is like this I einan lives her life this is like this I einan lives her life this is like this I would say a compensatory theory for her would say a compensatory theory for her would say a compensatory theory for her lack of ability to conform to the gender lack of ability to conform to the gender lack of ability to conform to the gender Norms of her day she then Norms of her day she then Norms of her day she then articulates them in a very strong and articulates them in a very strong and articulates them in a very strong and almost distorted and exaggerated way to almost distorted and exaggerated way to almost distorted and exaggerated way to compensate for the fact that she does compensate for the fact that she does compensate for the fact that she does and actually meet them and can't and actually meet them and can't and actually meet them and can't actually enact actually enact actually enact them the rape scene to some degree them the rape scene to some degree them the rape scene to some degree embodies that idea that the to some

embodies that idea that the to some embodies that idea that the to some degree that the woman should worship the degree that the woman should worship the degree that the woman should worship the man I tend to read it more in terms of man I tend to read it more in terms of man I tend to read it more in terms of literary genre so Rand is a literary genre so Rand is a literary genre so Rand is a screenwriter you know a consumer of screenwriter you know a consumer of screenwriter you know a consumer of movies and that rape scene is like movies and that rape scene is like movies and that rape scene is like paradigmatic for the romance genre in paradigmatic for the romance genre in paradigmatic for the romance genre in other words he's like pulpy romance other words he's like pulpy romance other words he's like pulpy romance novels the hero rapes the heroine that novels the hero rapes the heroine that novels the hero rapes the heroine that and then they fall in love that's just and then they fall in love that's just and then they fall in love that's just the Trope of how it works so it's crazy the Trope of how it works so it's crazy the Trope of how it works so it's crazy when you read it but if you were reading when you read it but if you were reading when you read it but if you were reading a bunch of novels in this genre you a bunch of novels in this genre you a bunch of novels in this genre you would find this is like very standard would find this is like very standard would find this is like very standard and so but that is a huge part of his and so but that is a huge part of his and so but that is a huge part of his appeal at the time there's this feminist appeal at the time there's this feminist appeal at the time there's this feminist who hates rant Susan brownmiller and she who hates rant Susan brownmiller and she who hates rant Susan brownmiller and she wants to write an angry denunciation of wants to write an angry denunciation of wants to write an angry denunciation of the rape scene so she goes to get the the rape scene so she goes to get the the rape scene so she goes to get the Fountain Head and she's wondering how is Fountain Head and she's wondering how is Fountain Head and she's wondering how is she ever going to find scene in this you she ever going to find scene in this you she ever going to find scene in this you know 800 page book it's a library copy know 800 page book it's a library copy know 800 page book it's a library copy because she doesn't want to buy it and because she doesn't want to buy it and because she doesn't want to buy it and it just Falls open to the rape scene it just Falls open to the rape scene it just Falls open to the rape scene because everybody's gone and read it because everybody's gone and read it because everybody's gone and read it because it's very racy and explicit for because it's very racy and explicit for because it's very racy and explicit for that time so I'm I'm almost positive she that time so I'm I'm almost positive she that time so I'm I'm almost positive she also knew that like if I put in this also knew that like if I put in this also knew that like if I put in this kind of taboo breaking sex scene that's kind of taboo breaking sex scene that's kind of taboo breaking sex scene that's also going to probably be why people also going to probably be why people also going to probably be why people tell their friends about it so I just I tell their friends about it so I just I tell their friends about it so I just I think it's a mess I think all of the think it's a mess I think all of the think it's a mess I think all of the gender and sexuality stuff is that she gender and sexuality stuff is that she gender and sexuality stuff is that she states states states is just a total mess I think uh it also is just a total mess I think uh it also is just a total mess I think uh it also reminds me of of another guy related uh reminds me of of another guy related uh reminds me of of another guy related uh freeder n who had very strong opinions freeder n who had very strong opinions freeder n who had very strong opinions on women and wrote about what women's

on women and wrote about what women's on women and wrote about what women's role in society should be and different role in society should be and different role in society should be and different Dy power dynamics and relationships and Dy power dynamics and relationships and Dy power dynamics and relationships and all that kind of stuff when he himself all that kind of stuff when he himself all that kind of stuff when he himself really had trouble getting laid Yeah and really had trouble getting laid Yeah and really had trouble getting laid Yeah and so you have to you have to sort of um so you have to you have to sort of um so you have to you have to sort of um always maybe chuckle or take with a always maybe chuckle or take with a always maybe chuckle or take with a grain of salt the analysis of power grain of salt the analysis of power grain of salt the analysis of power dynamics in relationship from these dynamics in relationship from these dynamics in relationship from these figures which which failed in in many figures which which failed in in many figures which which failed in in many regards in their own private regards in their own private regards in their own private life um you mentioned feminist would you life um you mentioned feminist would you life um you mentioned feminist would you consider irand a feminist I mean she's consider irand a feminist I mean she's consider irand a feminist I mean she's almost an almost an almost an anti-feminist um because she then goes anti-feminist um because she then goes anti-feminist um because she then goes on and um someone writes her a letter on and um someone writes her a letter on and um someone writes her a letter about like um should there be a female about like um should there be a female about like um should there be a female president or something this is like the president or something this is like the president or something this is like the beginning of feminism and she says um no beginning of feminism and she says um no beginning of feminism and she says um no um no woman should ever be president um no woman should ever be president um no woman should ever be president because if she's president she wouldn't because if she's president she wouldn't because if she's president she wouldn't be able to look up to any man because be able to look up to any man because be able to look up to any man because she would be so powerful and therefore she would be so powerful and therefore she would be so powerful and therefore she would be like corrupt and like she would be like corrupt and like she would be like corrupt and like rotten in the soul and like unfit to be rotten in the soul and like unfit to be rotten in the soul and like unfit to be a leader and it just it it just makes no a leader and it just it it just makes no a leader and it just it it just makes no sense um but that said she's a woman and sense um but that said she's a woman and sense um but that said she's a woman and she's one of the most powerful she's one of the most powerful she's one of the most powerful intellects in the 20th century yeah and intellects in the 20th century yeah and intellects in the 20th century yeah and so it's the contradictions I mean nich so it's the contradictions I mean nich so it's the contradictions I mean nich is full full contradictions of this is full full contradictions of this is full full contradictions of this sort that sort that sort that the the very fact that she's one of the the the very fact that she's one of the the the very fact that she's one of the most powerful minds in history to me most powerful minds in history to me most powerful minds in history to me means that she is a feminist in her in means that she is a feminist in her in means that she is a feminist in her in the spirit she embodies right in what the spirit she embodies right in what the spirit she embodies right in what she represents well I mean she lived the

she represents well I mean she lived the she represents well I mean she lived the ideals of individualism in her life and ideals of individualism in her life and ideals of individualism in her life and set aside gender Norms in her own life set aside gender Norms in her own life set aside gender Norms in her own life but she did not see herself as part of but she did not see herself as part of but she did not see herself as part of any she did not see herself as doing any she did not see herself as doing any she did not see herself as doing this for the benefit of other women or this for the benefit of other women or this for the benefit of other women or to change society's views about women to change society's views about women to change society's views about women there was no Collective Essence to it so there was no Collective Essence to it so there was no Collective Essence to it so if if feminism has some sort of if if feminism has some sort of if if feminism has some sort of collective aspect to it or at least some collective aspect to it or at least some collective aspect to it or at least some identification one needs to identify identification one needs to identify identification one needs to identify with a broader category of women and with a broader category of women and with a broader category of women and feel they're acting in behalf of that feel they're acting in behalf of that feel they're acting in behalf of that she's definitely not doing that and she she's definitely not doing that and she she's definitely not doing that and she did you know she did you know she did you know she was fair to women in her life promoted was fair to women in her life promoted was fair to women in her life promoted them in her life but did not I mean she them in her life but did not I mean she them in her life but did not I mean she was very negative about feminism and was very negative about feminism and was very negative about feminism and then because like they dress terribly then because like they dress terribly then because like they dress terribly you know and then the other thing it's you know and then the other thing it's you know and then the other thing it's really interesting she had there's all really interesting she had there's all really interesting she had there's all these kind of homoerotic themes in her these kind of homoerotic themes in her these kind of homoerotic themes in her writing and for that reason many gay men writing and for that reason many gay men writing and for that reason many gay men were drawn to her writing and then she were drawn to her writing and then she were drawn to her writing and then she would say like homosexuals are dirty would say like homosexuals are dirty would say like homosexuals are dirty terrible people you know she would terrible people you know she would terrible people you know she would denounce people for being homosexual so denounce people for being homosexual so denounce people for being homosexual so there's a whole actual literature of there's a whole actual literature of there's a whole actual literature of like gay men wrestling with Rand and how like gay men wrestling with Rand and how like gay men wrestling with Rand and how she like what she says about gay people she like what she says about gay people she like what she says about gay people so um yeah it's it's hard to make sense so um yeah it's it's hard to make sense so um yeah it's it's hard to make sense of and I just I just think of the enous of and I just I just think of the enous of and I just I just think of the enous pressures if I want to be charitable I pressures if I want to be charitable I pressures if I want to be charitable I just think of the enormous pressures she just think of the enormous pressures she just think of the enormous pressures she was under in the culture she was raised was under in the culture she was raised was under in the culture she was raised in the expectations that were placed in the expectations that were placed in the expectations that were placed upon her and her just utter inability to upon her and her just utter inability to upon her and her just utter inability to meet any of them and it came out in this meet any of them and it came out in this meet any of them and it came out in this very tortured set of ideals that she

very tortured set of ideals that she very tortured set of ideals that she tried to tried to tried to promote um and this kind of lack of promote um and this kind of lack of promote um and this kind of lack of ability to introspect in herself and to ability to introspect in herself and to ability to introspect in herself and to was probably too painful to introspect was probably too painful to introspect was probably too painful to introspect and to think about that so she just and to think about that so she just and to think about that so she just tried to rationalize is her way through tried to rationalize is her way through tried to rationalize is her way through it and it came out in these very strange it and it came out in these very strange it and it came out in these very strange theories why do you think that IR Rand theories why do you think that IR Rand theories why do you think that IR Rand is maybe you can correct me but as far is maybe you can correct me but as far is maybe you can correct me but as far as I can see never mentioned in the list as I can see never mentioned in the list as I can see never mentioned in the list of great thinkers in history or even the of great thinkers in history or even the of great thinkers in history or even the great thinkers of the 20th century or great thinkers of the 20th century or great thinkers of the 20th century or even the great female thinkers of the even the great female thinkers of the even the great female thinkers of the 20th century so you have somebody like 20th century so you have somebody like 20th century so you have somebody like Simone de Simone de Simone de bravar uh Hana bravar uh Hana bravar uh Hana Ren I almost never see her in the list Ren I almost never see her in the list Ren I almost never see her in the list if you Google those silly list top if you Google those silly list top if you Google those silly list top whatever whatever whatever top thinkers of the 20th century she's top thinkers of the 20th century she's top thinkers of the 20th century she's not mentioned why is that you know a lot not mentioned why is that you know a lot not mentioned why is that you know a lot of people just deeply dislike ran they of people just deeply dislike ran they of people just deeply dislike ran they deeply dislike her ideas they don't deeply dislike her ideas they don't deeply dislike her ideas they don't think they're profound because their think they're profound because their think they're profound because their disconnection from other ideas and other disconnection from other ideas and other disconnection from other ideas and other understandings of human society I think understandings of human society I think understandings of human society I think I think where you could look at them and I think where you could look at them and I think where you could look at them and say these are these ideas are very say these are these ideas are very say these are these ideas are very provocative and they're very deep provocative and they're very deep provocative and they're very deep because she's not taking anything for because she's not taking anything for because she's not taking anything for granted and she's flipping everything granted and she's flipping everything granted and she's flipping everything around and forcing you to really think around and forcing you to really think around and forcing you to really think to a lot of other readers to her critics to a lot of other readers to her critics to a lot of other readers to her critics they just look absurd like how could you they just look absurd like how could you they just look absurd like how could you even make these even make these even make these contentions um and I think that because contentions um and I think that because contentions um and I think that because she she's not without precedence and she she's not without precedence and she she's not without precedence and she's not without followers but she she's not without followers but she she's not without followers but she doesn't knit herself into an

doesn't knit herself into an doesn't knit herself into an intellectual intellectual intellectual Community um the way that these other Community um the way that these other Community um the way that these other thinkers do very naturally that that can thinkers do very naturally that that can thinkers do very naturally that that can you can see who they influence you can you can see who they influence you can you can see who they influence you can see who they're in dialogue with you see who they're in dialogue with you see who they're in dialogue with you know I think my book was one of the know I think my book was one of the know I think my book was one of the first to really take Rand and say she's first to really take Rand and say she's first to really take Rand and say she's a figure in American history here's who a figure in American history here's who a figure in American history here's who she's connected to here's who she's she's connected to here's who she's she's connected to here's who she's influenced and I got a lot of push back influenced and I got a lot of push back influenced and I got a lot of push back for that you know I think now people are for that you know I think now people are for that you know I think now people are more open to it but I think the people more open to it but I think the people more open to it but I think the people who compile these who compile these who compile these lists really dislike her work and they lists really dislike her work and they lists really dislike her work and they think it shallow think it shallow think it shallow because they find her fiction overdrawn because they find her fiction overdrawn because they find her fiction overdrawn they find her work in the Mythic they find her work in the Mythic they find her work in the Mythic register simple and she's also a grand register simple and she's also a grand register simple and she's also a grand systematic thinker in an age that's over systematic thinker in an age that's over systematic thinker in an age that's over systems you know she's almost she's systems you know she's almost she's systems you know she's almost she's creating an inverse Marxism right Marx creating an inverse Marxism right Marx creating an inverse Marxism right Marx was writing in 1848 you know he's not a was writing in 1848 you know he's not a was writing in 1848 you know he's not a thinker of the mid 20th century so um I thinker of the mid 20th century so um I thinker of the mid 20th century so um I think that's part of it the lack of a think that's part of it the lack of a think that's part of it the lack of a legacy and the dislike of what she had legacy and the dislike of what she had legacy and the dislike of what she had to say and the feeling that she's too to say and the feeling that she's too to say and the feeling that she's too detached her insights are not insights detached her insights are not insights detached her insights are not insights because they're too idealized rather because they're too idealized rather because they're too idealized rather than being rooted in a theory of human than being rooted in a theory of human than being rooted in a theory of human nature that people find plausible you study and write about history of you study and write about history of ideas in the United States over the past ideas in the United States over the past ideas in the United States over the past 100 years 100 plus 100 years 100 plus 100 years 100 plus years well how do you think ideas evolve years well how do you think ideas evolve years well how do you think ideas evolve and gain power over the populace over and gain power over the populace over and gain power over the populace over our government over culture just looking

our government over culture just looking our government over culture just looking at evolution of ideas as they dance and at evolution of ideas as they dance and at evolution of ideas as they dance and challenge each other challenge each other challenge each other and play in public and play in public and play in public discourse um what do you think is the discourse um what do you think is the discourse um what do you think is the mechanism by which they take hold old mechanism by which they take hold old mechanism by which they take hold old and have influence yeah I mean there's a and have influence yeah I mean there's a and have influence yeah I mean there's a couple different ways I think it happens couple different ways I think it happens couple different ways I think it happens I really am interested in the I really am interested in the I really am interested in the relationship between the Thinker and relationship between the Thinker and relationship between the Thinker and then the reader and The Interpreter of then the reader and The Interpreter of then the reader and The Interpreter of the ideas and then the conditions on the the ideas and then the conditions on the the ideas and then the conditions on the ground that make that idea resonate or ground that make that idea resonate or ground that make that idea resonate or not not not resonate um and so I think I think a lot resonate um and so I think I think a lot resonate um and so I think I think a lot so so as an intellectual historian I'm so so as an intellectual historian I'm so so as an intellectual historian I'm studying ideas always putting them in studying ideas always putting them in studying ideas always putting them in their historical context like what is their historical context like what is their historical context like what is happening that is making these things happening that is making these things happening that is making these things resonate that is making them people seek resonate that is making them people seek resonate that is making them people seek them out um so for Ran's case she has them out um so for Ran's case she has them out um so for Ran's case she has this credibility because of her this credibility because of her this credibility because of her experience of Communism which is one of experience of Communism which is one of experience of Communism which is one of these defining moments of the time and these defining moments of the time and these defining moments of the time and then I think the idea comes out in a then I think the idea comes out in a then I think the idea comes out in a sort of pure form and then other people sort of pure form and then other people sort of pure form and then other people rework it and reshape it as they read it rework it and reshape it as they read it rework it and reshape it as they read it and I'm really interested in how people and I'm really interested in how people and I'm really interested in how people form communities around these ideas so a form communities around these ideas so a form communities around these ideas so a bunch of people started calling bunch of people started calling bunch of people started calling themselves objectivists and getting themselves objectivists and getting themselves objectivists and getting together to read Ran's work that was together to read Ran's work that was together to read Ran's work that was spontaneous and ground up and wasn't spontaneous and ground up and wasn't spontaneous and ground up and wasn't supported by any money nobody planned it supported by any money nobody planned it supported by any money nobody planned it it just happened fredman's a different it just happened fredman's a different it just happened fredman's a different case in that he joins an established case in that he joins an established case in that he joins an established tradition of thought that's been tradition of thought that's been tradition of thought that's been institutionalized in universities so

institutionalized in universities so institutionalized in universities so people are signing up and paying money people are signing up and paying money people are signing up and paying money and getting credential to learn these and getting credential to learn these and getting credential to learn these ideas so to my mind these are two ideas so to my mind these are two ideas so to my mind these are two different ways but really emblematic different ways but really emblematic different ways but really emblematic ways of how ideas spread so Rand I think ways of how ideas spread so Rand I think ways of how ideas spread so Rand I think of as more bottom up like people of as more bottom up like people of as more bottom up like people encounter the idea in a book they're encounter the idea in a book they're encounter the idea in a book they're kind of Blown Away by it or they embibe kind of Blown Away by it or they embibe kind of Blown Away by it or they embibe it without even realizing they're eming it without even realizing they're eming it without even realizing they're eming it and then they're like well maybe I it and then they're like well maybe I it and then they're like well maybe I don't like Franklin Roosevelt so much or don't like Franklin Roosevelt so much or don't like Franklin Roosevelt so much or maybe I'll look SE another time at Berry maybe I'll look SE another time at Berry maybe I'll look SE another time at Berry Goldwater and then whereas fredman you Goldwater and then whereas fredman you Goldwater and then whereas fredman you get the idea more top down I know I'm get the idea more top down I know I'm get the idea more top down I know I'm getting the idea I know I'm being getting the idea I know I'm being getting the idea I know I'm being positioned within a sort of elite positioned within a sort of elite positioned within a sort of elite discourse of economics and so I think discourse of economics and so I think discourse of economics and so I think they kind of go top down and bottom up they kind of go top down and bottom up they kind of go top down and bottom up and then they hit the events right and then they hit the events right and then they hit the events right fredman's ideas would have gone anywhere fredman's ideas would have gone anywhere fredman's ideas would have gone anywhere without that episode of stagflation that without that episode of stagflation that without that episode of stagflation that really made people think they proved out really made people think they proved out really made people think they proved out and I think rand's idea's really caught and I think rand's idea's really caught and I think rand's idea's really caught fire in Cold War America that's looking fire in Cold War America that's looking fire in Cold War America that's looking for a statement of like what does it for a statement of like what does it for a statement of like what does it mean to be an individual what does it mean to be an individual what does it mean to be an individual what does it mean to live in this Mass Society mean to live in this Mass Society mean to live in this Mass Society because it's also a time of great social because it's also a time of great social because it's also a time of great social Conformity and where people are suddenly Conformity and where people are suddenly Conformity and where people are suddenly you know they're working for large you know they're working for large you know they're working for large corporations um they've been served in a corporations um they've been served in a corporations um they've been served in a large military you know they're the large military you know they're the large military you know they're the United States is stepping out onto the United States is stepping out onto the United States is stepping out onto the world stage everything is bigger what world stage everything is bigger what world stage everything is bigger what does it mean to be an individual in that does it mean to be an individual in that does it mean to be an individual in that world and that's where rand's ideas world and that's where rand's ideas world and that's where rand's ideas catch fire so I think a lot about about catch fire so I think a lot about about catch fire so I think a lot about about that about how they trickle through that about how they trickle through that about how they trickle through different levels of society and then how different levels of society and then how different levels of society and then how ideas collide with experience I think is ideas collide with experience I think is ideas collide with experience I think is critical what do you think about like critical what do you think about like critical what do you think about like when they actually take powering when they actually take powering when they actually take powering government so I think about ideas like

government so I think about ideas like government so I think about ideas like Marxism and how that evolves into the Marxism and how that evolves into the Marxism and how that evolves into the bulvik revolution how how that like bulvik revolution how how that like bulvik revolution how how that like takes hold in its implementations or you takes hold in its implementations or you takes hold in its implementations or you can think about Nazism and with Hitler can think about Nazism and with Hitler can think about Nazism and with Hitler where it goes from a small number of where it goes from a small number of where it goes from a small number of people that get real excited about a people that get real excited about a people that get real excited about a thing and then like somehow just becomes thing and then like somehow just becomes thing and then like somehow just becomes viral and takes hold in power and then viral and takes hold in power and then viral and takes hold in power and then that has its that has its that has its consequences when I think consequences when I think consequences when I think about the sort about the sort about the sort of historical path of Communism and the of historical path of Communism and the of historical path of Communism and the kind of Logics and dynamics of Communism kind of Logics and dynamics of Communism kind of Logics and dynamics of Communism I mean in in many ways it has some I mean in in many ways it has some I mean in in many ways it has some Echoes with Rand in that you know the Echoes with Rand in that you know the Echoes with Rand in that you know the the ideology and its p form is is almost the ideology and its p form is is almost the ideology and its p form is is almost it's a it's a rationalist ideology of it's a it's a rationalist ideology of it's a it's a rationalist ideology of some ways it's an analysis of history some ways it's an analysis of history some ways it's an analysis of history and how things are supposed to be and I and how things are supposed to be and I and how things are supposed to be and I think you mentioned Hana aren I think think you mentioned Hana aren I think think you mentioned Hana aren I think she has one of the most kind of she has one of the most kind of she has one of the most kind of penetrating analyses of of Communism penetrating analyses of of Communism penetrating analyses of of Communism which she really puts in the category of which she really puts in the category of which she really puts in the category of like it's it's a it's a logical like it's it's a it's a logical like it's it's a it's a logical ideology logic leads inexorably to its ideology logic leads inexorably to its ideology logic leads inexorably to its conclusions and then experience crops up conclusions and then experience crops up conclusions and then experience crops up and experience is different and what is and experience is different and what is and experience is different and what is what is a a sort of cult of rationality what is a a sort of cult of rationality what is a a sort of cult of rationality do when it hits experience well it tries do when it hits experience well it tries do when it hits experience well it tries to bend experience to its will and that to bend experience to its will and that to bend experience to its will and that I think is really the story of Communism I think is really the story of Communism I think is really the story of Communism writ writ writ large um so the question though is why large um so the question though is why large um so the question though is why you know why does it catch fire why does you know why does it catch fire why does you know why does it catch fire why does it draw people into political allegiance it draw people into political allegiance it draw people into political allegiance I think in the case of Communism it's I think in the case of Communism it's I think in the case of Communism it's this dream of a more ethical world you this dream of a more ethical world you this dream of a more ethical world you know dream of equality dream of the

know dream of equality dream of the know dream of equality dream of the powerless rising up against the powerful powerless rising up against the powerful powerless rising up against the powerful I mean that's very um that's drawn in so I mean that's very um that's drawn in so I mean that's very um that's drawn in so many and then you had the whole addition many and then you had the whole addition many and then you had the whole addition of leninism which gave a kind of of leninism which gave a kind of of leninism which gave a kind of international cast to that and helped international cast to that and helped international cast to that and helped people think about what are the people think about what are the people think about what are the relations between poorer and richer relations between poorer and richer relations between poorer and richer countries and what can we expect out of countries and what can we expect out of countries and what can we expect out of them and what might happen gave them them and what might happen gave them them and what might happen gave them sort of a framework for thinking about sort of a framework for thinking about sort of a framework for thinking about that in a time when those the world was that in a time when those the world was that in a time when those the world was becoming more interconnected and those becoming more interconnected and those becoming more interconnected and those differences were becoming more obvious differences were becoming more obvious differences were becoming more obvious you know fascism to me is you know fascism to me is you know fascism to me is unleashing unleashing unleashing more something Primal something sort of more something Primal something sort of more something Primal something sort of dark and Primal within people and and dark and Primal within people and and dark and Primal within people and and it's more a permission structure to it's more a permission structure to it's more a permission structure to indulge in that that is normally not indulge in that that is normally not indulge in that that is normally not there those impulses are normally there those impulses are normally there those impulses are normally channeled or held down and it seems that channeled or held down and it seems that channeled or held down and it seems that when the fascist regimes come into power when the fascist regimes come into power when the fascist regimes come into power they give people permission to let those they give people permission to let those they give people permission to let those forces out I think on forces out I think on forces out I think on communism going back to that uh lecture communism going back to that uh lecture communism going back to that uh lecture that IR R that IR R that IR R gave I think uh what Rings true to me a gave I think uh what Rings true to me a gave I think uh what Rings true to me a little bit is that uh it what fuels it little bit is that uh it what fuels it little bit is that uh it what fuels it is a kind of uh maybe not resentment is a kind of uh maybe not resentment is a kind of uh maybe not resentment Envy Envy Envy towards uh towards the people that have towards uh towards the people that have towards uh towards the people that have the have kns versus the halves and the have kns versus the halves and the have kns versus the halves and there's some degree to which Nazism has there's some degree to which Nazism has there's some degree to which Nazism has the same of Envy towards some group the same of Envy towards some group the same of Envy towards some group resentment towards some group so it's resentment towards some group so it's resentment towards some group so it's given the environment of Hard Times Hard given the environment of Hard Times Hard given the environment of Hard Times Hard Economic Times combined with the more Economic Times combined with the more Economic Times combined with the more Primal just

Primal just Primal just Envy of not having and seeing somebody Envy of not having and seeing somebody Envy of not having and seeing somebody who has it and just constructing a who has it and just constructing a who has it and just constructing a narrative around that that can become a narrative around that that can become a narrative around that that can become a real real real viral idea yeah it seems like communism viral idea yeah it seems like communism viral idea yeah it seems like communism is more animated by this idea of is more animated by this idea of is more animated by this idea of Injustice you know the world is unjust Injustice you know the world is unjust Injustice you know the world is unjust it should be different and fascism seems it should be different and fascism seems it should be different and fascism seems like the process of scapegoating right like the process of scapegoating right like the process of scapegoating right we've identified the source of the we've identified the source of the we've identified the source of the problem and it's this group and they problem and it's this group and they problem and it's this group and they need to be punished for what they've need to be punished for what they've need to be punished for what they've done to the rest of us there is a primal done to the rest of us there is a primal done to the rest of us there is a primal thing is going back to literature in thing is going back to literature in thing is going back to literature in 1984 two minutes of hate get everybody 1984 two minutes of hate get everybody 1984 two minutes of hate get everybody real like excited about like hating a real like excited about like hating a real like excited about like hating a thing and there's something Primal about thing and there's something Primal about thing and there's something Primal about us humans where you once you're in that us humans where you once you're in that us humans where you once you're in that state of hate state of hate state of hate anyone can direct that hate towards anyone can direct that hate towards anyone can direct that hate towards anything yeah towards anything yeah towards anything yeah towards uh yeah towards any group towards any uh yeah towards any group towards any uh yeah towards any group towards any idea towards anything just because we're idea towards anything just because we're idea towards anything just because we're we could get caught up in the Massy Thea we could get caught up in the Massy Thea we could get caught up in the Massy Thea of the the hatred it's a dangerous thing of the the hatred it's a dangerous thing of the the hatred it's a dangerous thing yeah you uh you floated idea I forget yeah you uh you floated idea I forget yeah you uh you floated idea I forget where uh of pivoting for your next book where uh of pivoting for your next book where uh of pivoting for your next book uh towards maybe uh towards maybe uh towards maybe writing about writing about writing about postmodernism uh which is a set of ideas postmodernism uh which is a set of ideas postmodernism uh which is a set of ideas almost the opposite of Iran's philosophy almost the opposite of Iran's philosophy almost the opposite of Iran's philosophy so can you uh maybe explain your C so can you uh maybe explain your C so can you uh maybe explain your C curiosity about first of all spaces of curiosity about first of all spaces of curiosity about first of all spaces of ideas but maybe uh

ideas but maybe uh ideas but maybe uh postmodernism yeah I mean I think in the postmodernism yeah I mean I think in the postmodernism yeah I mean I think in the broadest sense what I'm interested in broadest sense what I'm interested in broadest sense what I'm interested in kind of two Dimensions that guide me and kind of two Dimensions that guide me and kind of two Dimensions that guide me and doing intellectual history one is what I doing intellectual history one is what I doing intellectual history one is what I talked about like how does an idea go talked about like how does an idea go talked about like how does an idea go from a book an elite from a book an elite from a book an elite space out to more popular Dimensions space out to more popular Dimensions space out to more popular Dimensions like how does that happen What happens like how does that happen What happens like how does that happen What happens to the idea along the way how is it to the idea along the way how is it to the idea along the way how is it distorted or changed and the other is distorted or changed and the other is distorted or changed and the other is just search for meaning and of a just search for meaning and of a just search for meaning and of a post-christian era or a secular era like post-christian era or a secular era like post-christian era or a secular era like what are what are people coming up with what are what are people coming up with what are what are people coming up with and I think to replace that void in and I think to replace that void in and I think to replace that void in their religious or spiritual lives I their religious or spiritual lives I their religious or spiritual lives I think both Rand and fredman offered think both Rand and fredman offered think both Rand and fredman offered these sort of alternatives right these sort of alternatives right these sort of alternatives right objectivism quasi rationalist objectivism quasi rationalist objectivism quasi rationalist religion people take economics as a as a religion people take economics as a as a religion people take economics as a as a theory of the world that almost you can theory of the world that almost you can theory of the world that almost you can almost believe in it right it can almost almost believe in it right it can almost almost believe in it right it can almost take that place and in both cases how do take that place and in both cases how do take that place and in both cases how do those ideas travel when I think about those ideas travel when I think about those ideas travel when I think about postmodernism you know it first struck postmodernism you know it first struck postmodernism you know it first struck me you know these if you read the me you know these if you read the me you know these if you read the original postmodern thinkers it's really original postmodern thinkers it's really original postmodern thinkers it's really tough goinging I mean I make my students tough goinging I mean I make my students tough goinging I mean I make my students do it and they suffer I think they see do it and they suffer I think they see do it and they suffer I think they see it's worthwhile but it's no fun to read it's worthwhile but it's no fun to read it's worthwhile but it's no fun to read daah you know but somehow it's trickled daah you know but somehow it's trickled daah you know but somehow it's trickled down into how do we go from like Dairy down into how do we go from like Dairy down into how do we go from like Dairy da to Tumblr and I sort of realized like da to Tumblr and I sort of realized like da to Tumblr and I sort of realized like oh this has happened with postmodernism oh this has happened with postmodernism oh this has happened with postmodernism it's followed the same path you know it's followed the same path you know it's followed the same path you know that say from Milton fredman's economic that say from Milton fredman's economic that say from Milton fredman's economic theory to you know free to choose on theory to you know free to choose on theory to you know free to choose on YouTube we've had a similar path you YouTube we've had a similar path you YouTube we've had a similar path you know high French Theory down to Tumblr know high French Theory down to Tumblr know high French Theory down to Tumblr and you know I you know sexually

and you know I you know sexually and you know I you know sexually identify as an attack helicopter or identify as an attack helicopter or identify as an attack helicopter or whatever it may be you know and so that whatever it may be you know and so that whatever it may be you know and so that was really interesting and then I also was really interesting and then I also was really interesting and then I also thought you know well at the same time thought you know well at the same time thought you know well at the same time um this is clearly a structure of um this is clearly a structure of um this is clearly a structure of meaning and I actually think it's meaning and I actually think it's meaning and I actually think it's followed the same path of objectivism followed the same path of objectivism followed the same path of objectivism which is turning into its opposite like which is turning into its opposite like which is turning into its opposite like distilled down and then turning into its distilled down and then turning into its distilled down and then turning into its opposite so if objectivism was a group opposite so if objectivism was a group opposite so if objectivism was a group of people who considered themselves of people who considered themselves of people who considered themselves individualists who ended up deeply individualists who ended up deeply individualists who ended up deeply conforming to the dictates of a conforming to the dictates of a conforming to the dictates of a charismatic leader you know charismatic leader you know charismatic leader you know postmodernism started about disrupting postmodernism started about disrupting postmodernism started about disrupting binaries that was we're going to be binaries that was we're going to be binaries that was we're going to be fluid we're going to go beyond the fluid we're going to go beyond the fluid we're going to go beyond the Border going to disrupt the binary and Border going to disrupt the binary and Border going to disrupt the binary and it's devolved in its popular forms to it's devolved in its popular forms to it's devolved in its popular forms to the reinscribing of many different the reinscribing of many different the reinscribing of many different binaries oppressor and oppressed you binaries oppressor and oppressed you binaries oppressor and oppressed you know has become this like paradigmatic know has become this like paradigmatic know has become this like paradigmatic set of glasses you put on to understand set of glasses you put on to understand set of glasses you put on to understand the world so I think this the Dynamics the world so I think this the Dynamics the world so I think this the Dynamics are very very similar so I think it's are very very similar so I think it's are very very similar so I think it's something in the traffic of the idea something in the traffic of the idea something in the traffic of the idea from its pure form to its popular form from its pure form to its popular form from its pure form to its popular form and then how gets it gets politicized or and then how gets it gets politicized or and then how gets it gets politicized or mobilized in different ways and behind mobilized in different ways and behind mobilized in different ways and behind it all I think is this human longing for it all I think is this human longing for it all I think is this human longing for meaning and the inadequacy of the meaning and the inadequacy of the meaning and the inadequacy of the traditional ways that need was met at traditional ways that need was met at traditional ways that need was met at this point in time by the way that uh this point in time by the way that uh this point in time by the way that uh going from Pure form to popular form I going from Pure form to popular form I going from Pure form to popular form I remember this might be before the remember this might be before the remember this might be before the internet but when I was in college internet but when I was in college internet but when I was in college reading dared Fuko and like not knowing reading dared Fuko and like not knowing reading dared Fuko and like not knowing context at all it interesting all right context at all it interesting all right context at all it interesting all right this is like I'm able to read pure

this is like I'm able to read pure this is like I'm able to read pure encapsulations of an idea and just kind encapsulations of an idea and just kind encapsulations of an idea and just kind of like all right well that person of like all right well that person of like all right well that person believes that and you just kind of hold believes that and you just kind of hold believes that and you just kind of hold it but then you realize if if you it but then you realize if if you it but then you realize if if you actually take the pure form of that idea actually take the pure form of that idea actually take the pure form of that idea and then it creates a community around and then it creates a community around and then it creates a community around it you realize like what that actually it you realize like what that actually it you realize like what that actually becomes yeah and you're like oh yeah no becomes yeah and you're like oh yeah no becomes yeah and you're like oh yeah no I I I don't that's not although I do um don't that's not although I do um don't that's not although I do um consider myself sexually an attack consider myself sexually an attack consider myself sexually an attack helicopter that's it identify sexually helicopter that's it identify sexually helicopter that's it identify sexually yes beautiful okay yes beautiful okay yes beautiful okay um your process of um your process of um your process of researching for uh let's say the researching for uh let's say the researching for uh let's say the biographies of mil freedan IR Rand seems biographies of mil freedan IR Rand seems biographies of mil freedan IR Rand seems like an insane amount of work yeah you like an insane amount of work yeah you like an insane amount of work yeah you did incredible work there going to the did incredible work there going to the did incredible work there going to the original sources can you maybe speak to original sources can you maybe speak to original sources can you maybe speak to that what uh is required to that what uh is required to that what uh is required to persevere and to go to go for so many persevere and to go to go for so many persevere and to go to go for so many years to go so deep to the sources so I years to go so deep to the sources so I years to go so deep to the sources so I mean I I I go to the archive that's mean I I I go to the archive that's mean I I I go to the archive that's that's where I feel like I'm I feel like that's where I feel like I'm I feel like that's where I feel like I'm I feel like I'm communing with the dead in some ways I'm communing with the dead in some ways I'm communing with the dead in some ways you know I'm seeing what they what they you know I'm seeing what they what they you know I'm seeing what they what they saw in some ways reading what they felt saw in some ways reading what they felt saw in some ways reading what they felt and I you know I tell my my doctoral and I you know I tell my my doctoral and I you know I tell my my doctoral students it's got to be something that students it's got to be something that students it's got to be something that gets you out of bed in the morning gets you out of bed in the morning gets you out of bed in the morning because there comes a point in your because there comes a point in your because there comes a point in your doctoral career when nobody's there's doctoral career when nobody's there's doctoral career when nobody's there's nowhere to go there's nowhere to be you nowhere to go there's nowhere to be you nowhere to go there's nowhere to be you got to be getting up because you're got to be getting up because you're got to be getting up because you're interested in what you want to study and interested in what you want to study and interested in what you want to study and so with Rand it was this real sense of so with Rand it was this real sense of so with Rand it was this real sense of Discovery like I am discovering I want Discovery like I am discovering I want Discovery like I am discovering I want to know about this woman I want to know to know about this woman I want to know to know about this woman I want to know where she fits and the only way to find

where she fits and the only way to find where she fits and the only way to find out is to do the research you know and out is to do the research you know and out is to do the research you know and so um yeah I I just I like to go deep so um yeah I I just I like to go deep so um yeah I I just I like to go deep it's it's really interesting to me um it's it's really interesting to me um it's it's really interesting to me um and I should say in both of these cases and I should say in both of these cases and I should say in both of these cases I've done it in an Institutional I've done it in an Institutional I've done it in an Institutional structure I don't know that I would do structure I don't know that I would do structure I don't know that I would do it independently so the first was a it independently so the first was a it independently so the first was a graduate program in history was at UC graduate program in history was at UC graduate program in history was at UC Berkeley and so I had coursework and Berkeley and so I had coursework and Berkeley and so I had coursework and then I had structures and I did have then I had structures and I did have then I had structures and I did have people to check in with and read but I people to check in with and read but I people to check in with and read but I had a great deal of latitude I'm very had a great deal of latitude I'm very had a great deal of latitude I'm very grateful for people are like you wrote a grateful for people are like you wrote a grateful for people are like you wrote a dissertation on IR ran at Berkeley I'm dissertation on IR ran at Berkeley I'm dissertation on IR ran at Berkeley I'm like yeah hell I did you know Berkeley's like yeah hell I did you know Berkeley's like yeah hell I did you know Berkeley's like it's a great place and it at the I like it's a great place and it at the I like it's a great place and it at the I was there there was absolute room for was there there was absolute room for was there there was absolute room for free inquiry oh can you just like Linger free inquiry oh can you just like Linger free inquiry oh can you just like Linger on that so when you said that you're on that so when you said that you're on that so when you said that you're doing that doing a desertation on IR doing that doing a desertation on IR doing that doing a desertation on IR Rand was there did people get upset no I Rand was there did people get upset no I Rand was there did people get upset no I did have a you know a friendly critic did have a you know a friendly critic did have a you know a friendly critic who who took it upon himself to throw at who who took it upon himself to throw at who who took it upon himself to throw at me everything he thought the outside me everything he thought the outside me everything he thought the outside world would throw at me I think maybe world would throw at me I think maybe world would throw at me I think maybe five or 10 years earlier it wouldn't five or 10 years earlier it wouldn't five or 10 years earlier it wouldn't have been possible and it but the most have been possible and it but the most have been possible and it but the most important thing I had to important thing I had to important thing I had to the person I really had to convince this the person I really had to convince this the person I really had to convince this was worth doing was myself you know was worth doing was myself you know was worth doing was myself you know because I knew it was uncon an because I knew it was uncon an because I knew it was uncon an unconventional choice for the field and unconventional choice for the field and unconventional choice for the field and for a dissertation but once I convinced for a dissertation but once I convinced for a dissertation but once I convinced myself I just said well we're I'm going myself I just said well we're I'm going myself I just said well we're I'm going to do this and see and because it was to do this and see and because it was to do this and see and because it was unconventional it it ended up standing unconventional it it ended up standing unconventional it it ended up standing out and and but it really was at time out and and but it really was at time out and and but it really was at time there was a was I was started it during there was a was I was started it during there was a was I was started it during Second Bush Administration second George Second Bush Administration second George Second Bush Administration second George W bush second term people were

W bush second term people were W bush second term people were interested in just conservatism in interested in just conservatism in interested in just conservatism in general and felt no matter where they general and felt no matter where they general and felt no matter where they stood on the political Spectrum felt stood on the political Spectrum felt stood on the political Spectrum felt like objectively we don't know enough like objectively we don't know enough like objectively we don't know enough about this and this is a problem and so about this and this is a problem and so about this and this is a problem and so they were open to learning more so I they were open to learning more so I they were open to learning more so I really kind of caught that caught that really kind of caught that caught that really kind of caught that caught that wave in scholarship and caught that wave wave in scholarship and caught that wave wave in scholarship and caught that wave in American culture where people wanted in American culture where people wanted in American culture where people wanted to know more yeah we should probably say to know more yeah we should probably say to know more yeah we should probably say that I that I that I mean Iran is at the very least as you've mean Iran is at the very least as you've mean Iran is at the very least as you've mentioned a kind of gateway to mentioned a kind of gateway to mentioned a kind of gateway to conservatism yes I called her the conservatism yes I called her the conservatism yes I called her the gateway drug and that people start with gateway drug and that people start with gateway drug and that people start with Rand they're taken by her you know in Rand they're taken by her you know in Rand they're taken by her you know in some way she takes the worldview of some way she takes the worldview of some way she takes the worldview of Milton fredman in terms of what Milton fredman in terms of what Milton fredman in terms of what capitalism can accomplish economically capitalism can accomplish economically capitalism can accomplish economically and then she puts it in this mythopoetic and then she puts it in this mythopoetic and then she puts it in this mythopoetic register and she fictionalizes it so register and she fictionalizes it so register and she fictionalizes it so once people have absorbed that they want once people have absorbed that they want once people have absorbed that they want more you know they go on to learning more you know they go on to learning more you know they go on to learning more of the ideas behind that Vision or more of the ideas behind that Vision or more of the ideas behind that Vision or they have become True Believers they've they have become True Believers they've they have become True Believers they've converted and so then they head off to converted and so then they head off to converted and so then they head off to work for a politician to work for a work for a politician to work for a work for a politician to work for a think tank to work for a party it's think tank to work for a party it's think tank to work for a party it's absolute traffic now not everyone absolute traffic now not everyone absolute traffic now not everyone there's plenty of people who read on there's plenty of people who read on there's plenty of people who read on Rand who don't take the politics in it's Rand who don't take the politics in it's Rand who don't take the politics in it's a nice story it's interesting um just an a nice story it's interesting um just an a nice story it's interesting um just an episode in their life but for others episode in their life but for others episode in their life but for others it's really foundational really really it's really foundational really really it's really foundational really really changes them so those were the people I changes them so those were the people I changes them so those were the people I wanted to track very deliberately I wanted to track very deliberately I wanted to track very deliberately I wasn't trying to do in the round wasn't trying to do in the round wasn't trying to do in the round everything about irand I was like irand everything about irand I was like irand everything about irand I was like irand and the American right you know goddess and the American right you know goddess and the American right you know goddess of the market Ein Rand and the American of the market Ein Rand and the American of the market Ein Rand and the American right is a title so where did they where right is a title so where did they where right is a title so where did they where did they take her those who took her in did they take her those who took her in did they take her those who took her in this political Direction what difference this political Direction what difference this political Direction what difference did she make if we uh return to like the did she make if we uh return to like the did she make if we uh return to like the actual your process yeah so you're

actual your process yeah so you're actual your process yeah so you're showing up you're reading showing up you're reading showing up you're reading sources and you're like is it kind of sources and you're like is it kind of sources and you're like is it kind of like the process of discovery you're like the process of discovery you're like the process of discovery you're just kind of like taking it all in and just kind of like taking it all in and just kind of like taking it all in and seeing seeing seeing what uh unifying ideas emerge or maybe what uh unifying ideas emerge or maybe what uh unifying ideas emerge or maybe Mo special moments that illustrate an Mo special moments that illustrate an Mo special moments that illustrate an idea emerge yeah I mean I know with the idea emerge yeah I mean I know with the idea emerge yeah I mean I know with the biography of a person I am already given biography of a person I am already given biography of a person I am already given a start and an end date and a rough a start and an end date and a rough a start and an end date and a rough Narrative of what happens so I have a Narrative of what happens so I have a Narrative of what happens so I have a kind of structure and then with Rand kind of structure and then with Rand kind of structure and then with Rand both with r and fredman I started by both with r and fredman I started by both with r and fredman I started by reading their major books before I reading their major books before I reading their major books before I really read anything about them because really read anything about them because really read anything about them because I wanted my own experience of the I wanted my own experience of the I wanted my own experience of the material to be fresh and I had read some material to be fresh and I had read some material to be fresh and I had read some irran but not a lot similarly I had read irran but not a lot similarly I had read irran but not a lot similarly I had read some fredman but not a lot so I had some fredman but not a lot so I had some fredman but not a lot so I had first is like let me read the major first is like let me read the major first is like let me read the major stuff get oriented and then just dive stuff get oriented and then just dive stuff get oriented and then just dive into the archive and see what's there um into the archive and see what's there um into the archive and see what's there um who are they talking to what's going on who are they talking to what's going on who are they talking to what's going on um in Ran's case you know I I was um in Ran's case you know I I was um in Ran's case you know I I was interested in in her in the United interested in in her in the United interested in in her in the United States not her in Russia I didn't have States not her in Russia I didn't have States not her in Russia I didn't have the language skills to do that so I the language skills to do that so I the language skills to do that so I start her in the United States and I start her in the United States and I start her in the United States and I start when she publishes her first book start when she publishes her first book start when she publishes her first book and she starts getting letters and who and she starts getting letters and who and she starts getting letters and who is she writing to who's writing to her is she writing to who's writing to her is she writing to who's writing to her and then I start to uncover this world and then I start to uncover this world and then I start to uncover this world of kind of nent conservatism and I'm of kind of nent conservatism and I'm of kind of nent conservatism and I'm kind of putting that together and once I kind of putting that together and once I kind of putting that together and once I have enough I say well that's a chapter have enough I say well that's a chapter have enough I say well that's a chapter I cover that chapter and then there's I cover that chapter and then there's I cover that chapter and then there's going to be you know the book has come going to be you know the book has come going to be you know the book has come out and so now I need to start a out and so now I need to start a out and so now I need to start a different chapter what's her life like different chapter what's her life like different chapter what's her life like after the book has been published you after the book has been published you after the book has been published you know and then I look for that but I'm

know and then I look for that but I'm know and then I look for that but I'm really although I have this very high really although I have this very high really although I have this very high level structure it's coming out of the level structure it's coming out of the level structure it's coming out of the archive the material I'm finding and if archive the material I'm finding and if archive the material I'm finding and if I'm not finding the material there I I'm not finding the material there I I'm not finding the material there I won't cover it in great detail or if won't cover it in great detail or if won't cover it in great detail or if I've decided it's outside my ambot I'm I've decided it's outside my ambot I'm I've decided it's outside my ambot I'm not going to go into great depth on it not going to go into great depth on it not going to go into great depth on it and you're trying to understand their and you're trying to understand their and you're trying to understand their relationships it's so fascinating like relationships it's so fascinating like relationships it's so fascinating like reconstruct in a dark room trying to reconstruct in a dark room trying to reconstruct in a dark room trying to reconstruct shine a light on reconstruct shine a light on reconstruct shine a light on relationships through Reading letters relationships through Reading letters relationships through Reading letters it's interesting yeah yeah I mean it's interesting yeah yeah I mean it's interesting yeah yeah I mean correspondence is really really helpful correspondence is really really helpful correspondence is really really helpful drafts correspondence and you know drafts correspondence and you know drafts correspondence and you know someone this famous they have oral someone this famous they have oral someone this famous they have oral histories other people write about them histories other people write about them histories other people write about them so you're reading all these different so you're reading all these different so you're reading all these different things and kind of triangulating and things and kind of triangulating and things and kind of triangulating and trying to sort of put them together and trying to sort of put them together and trying to sort of put them together and then think about how do I present this then think about how do I present this then think about how do I present this in a compelling story and what do I need in a compelling story and what do I need in a compelling story and what do I need to explain and then also for me what was to explain and then also for me what was to explain and then also for me what was really helpful was is that because I really helpful was is that because I really helpful was is that because I teach and I am explaining the kind of teach and I am explaining the kind of teach and I am explaining the kind of broad sweep of 20th century history so broad sweep of 20th century history so broad sweep of 20th century history so you know I know that Ran's involved in a you know I know that Ran's involved in a you know I know that Ran's involved in a a labor at Warner Brothers but through a labor at Warner Brothers but through a labor at Warner Brothers but through my teaching I realized oh yes this is a my teaching I realized oh yes this is a my teaching I realized oh yes this is a moment of Labor strikes across the moment of Labor strikes across the moment of Labor strikes across the country and so then that really changes country and so then that really changes country and so then that really changes the origin story of Atlas shrub because the origin story of Atlas shrub because the origin story of Atlas shrub because she's looking at Labor actions and she she's looking at Labor actions and she she's looking at Labor actions and she originally thinking of the book as being originally thinking of the book as being originally thinking of the book as being called the strike so she's really called the strike so she's really called the strike so she's really responding in real time and being responding in real time and being responding in real time and being inspired by what's happening you know in inspired by what's happening you know in inspired by what's happening you know in the mid 1940s in the United States so the mid 1940s in the United States so the mid 1940s in the United States so then I can kind of take that and run then I can kind of take that and run then I can kind of take that and run with that and figure out where to go so

with that and figure out where to go so with that and figure out where to go so you're super passionate about teaching you're super passionate about teaching you're super passionate about teaching uh you mentioned Milton Freeman had a uh you mentioned Milton Freeman had a uh you mentioned Milton Freeman had a very very very uh uh interesting way of teaching uh so uh uh interesting way of teaching uh so uh uh interesting way of teaching uh so what what's your how do you think of what what's your how do you think of what what's your how do you think of teaching teaching history teaching teaching teaching history teaching teaching teaching history teaching history of ideas teaching Bright Young history of ideas teaching Bright Young history of ideas teaching Bright Young Minds about the past yeah I mean it's Minds about the past yeah I mean it's Minds about the past yeah I mean it's great it's really inspiring the the ways great it's really inspiring the the ways great it's really inspiring the the ways the old school kind of dominating way in the old school kind of dominating way in the old school kind of dominating way in which Freedman taught would not fly in which Freedman taught would not fly in which Freedman taught would not fly in today's University uh wouldn't wouldn't today's University uh wouldn't wouldn't today's University uh wouldn't wouldn't be permitted and also the students be permitted and also the students be permitted and also the students wouldn't respond to it you know so um I wouldn't respond to it you know so um I wouldn't respond to it you know so um I try to share my enthusiasm I think try to share my enthusiasm I think try to share my enthusiasm I think that's like almost the number one thing that's like almost the number one thing that's like almost the number one thing I bring is my enthusiasm like look how I bring is my enthusiasm like look how I bring is my enthusiasm like look how neat and interesting these ideas are I neat and interesting these ideas are I neat and interesting these ideas are I try to keep my own views out pretty much try to keep my own views out pretty much try to keep my own views out pretty much I try to give the fairest possible I try to give the fairest possible I try to give the fairest possible rendition I can of each thinker if I if rendition I can of each thinker if I if rendition I can of each thinker if I if I find someone really disturbing I might I find someone really disturbing I might I find someone really disturbing I might sidebar at the end of the lecture and sidebar at the end of the lecture and sidebar at the end of the lecture and say this kind of you know I find this say this kind of you know I find this say this kind of you know I find this unsettling and this you know tells me unsettling and this you know tells me unsettling and this you know tells me something about myself but most of the something about myself but most of the something about myself but most of the time I'm bringing people into the like time I'm bringing people into the like time I'm bringing people into the like the biography of a great thinker the the biography of a great thinker the the biography of a great thinker the context of them and then we in the context of them and then we in the context of them and then we in the lecture we'll literally read the work lecture we'll literally read the work lecture we'll literally read the work together and we'll talk about it and together and we'll talk about it and together and we'll talk about it and I'll ask the students what are you I'll ask the students what are you I'll ask the students what are you finding here what's jumping out at you finding here what's jumping out at you finding here what's jumping out at you um kind of breaking down the language um kind of breaking down the language um kind of breaking down the language and and really teaching them how to do and and really teaching them how to do and and really teaching them how to do deep reading so I feel like that is my deep reading so I feel like that is my deep reading so I feel like that is my contribution right now we're having contribution right now we're having contribution right now we're having trouble reading collectively we're trouble reading collectively we're trouble reading collectively we're having trouble paying attention having trouble paying attention having trouble paying attention collectively and I'm trying to cultivate collectively and I'm trying to cultivate collectively and I'm trying to cultivate their skills to doing that and showing

their skills to doing that and showing their skills to doing that and showing them how I do it and also modeling like them how I do it and also modeling like them how I do it and also modeling like this is how I would read a text this is this is how I would read a text this is this is how I would read a text this is what jumps out to me when I look at you what jumps out to me when I look at you what jumps out to me when I look at you know Thomas or something like this know Thomas or something like this know Thomas or something like this um and just show them that I studying a um and just show them that I studying a um and just show them that I studying a history of ideas is really fun I feel history of ideas is really fun I feel history of ideas is really fun I feel incredibly privileged to do it you know incredibly privileged to do it you know incredibly privileged to do it you know and the other thing is I think this is and the other thing is I think this is and the other thing is I think this is the time for for students in college the time for for students in college the time for for students in college figuring out who they are their minds figuring out who they are their minds figuring out who they are their minds are developing and growing they can are developing and growing they can are developing and growing they can really handle complicated hard ideas really handle complicated hard ideas really handle complicated hard ideas they don't always have the context they don't always have the context they don't always have the context behind them so I need to give them the behind them so I need to give them the behind them so I need to give them the hard ideas and then show them this is hard ideas and then show them this is hard ideas and then show them this is kind of the context of what's happening kind of the context of what's happening kind of the context of what's happening in the world but really I'm just I'm in the world but really I'm just I'm in the world but really I'm just I'm showing them the landscape I don't have showing them the landscape I don't have showing them the landscape I don't have time to go deep we have a 10we quarter time to go deep we have a 10we quarter time to go deep we have a 10we quarter you know I giving them a fly over and you know I giving them a fly over and you know I giving them a fly over and then I want them to know how to go deep then I want them to know how to go deep then I want them to know how to go deep and know where they want to go deep do and know where they want to go deep do and know where they want to go deep do the thing that Milton Freeman did which the thing that Milton Freeman did which the thing that Milton Freeman did which is in parallel yes do their own parallel is in parallel yes do their own parallel is in parallel yes do their own parallel curriculum exactly exactly what advice curriculum exactly exactly what advice curriculum exactly exactly what advice would you give in terms of reading about would you give in terms of reading about would you give in terms of reading about ideas you agree with than reading ideas ideas you agree with than reading ideas ideas you agree with than reading ideas you disagree with I mean even though I you disagree with I mean even though I you disagree with I mean even though I think the passion is important for the think the passion is important for the think the passion is important for the teaching of the ideas like dispassion is teaching of the ideas like dispassion is teaching of the ideas like dispassion is more important for the reading and more important for the reading and more important for the reading and understanding of them um so a lot of understanding of them um so a lot of understanding of them um so a lot of people have said to me like I could people have said to me like I could people have said to me like I could never write about Ein ran like she makes never write about Ein ran like she makes never write about Ein ran like she makes me so angry you know and i' I've never me so angry you know and i' I've never me so angry you know and i' I've never become I don't get angry reading her become I don't get angry reading her become I don't get angry reading her like I'm I'm like oh there you go again like I'm I'm like oh there you go again like I'm I'm like oh there you go again you know or like well that's going to you know or like well that's going to you know or like well that's going to cause trouble lady you know and so um I cause trouble lady you know and so um I cause trouble lady you know and so um I guess I'm approaching it with a sort of guess I'm approaching it with a sort of guess I'm approaching it with a sort of Charity but also with a I'm not I don't

Charity but also with a I'm not I don't Charity but also with a I'm not I don't have huge expectations I'm not expecting have huge expectations I'm not expecting have huge expectations I'm not expecting to have the light shine on me I'm not to have the light shine on me I'm not to have the light shine on me I'm not expecting to agree I'm I'm like I can be expecting to agree I'm I'm like I can be expecting to agree I'm I'm like I can be very clinical about it so that's what's very clinical about it so that's what's very clinical about it so that's what's worked for me it might not work for worked for me it might not work for worked for me it might not work for others but and then I just try to find others but and then I just try to find others but and then I just try to find the humor in it you know like how how the humor in it you know like how how the humor in it you know like how how funny is it like these different aspects funny is it like these different aspects funny is it like these different aspects of them you know like I when teaching my of them you know like I when teaching my of them you know like I when teaching my students about Oliver Wendell Holmes students about Oliver Wendell Holmes students about Oliver Wendell Holmes like his his dad wrote a poem about him like his his dad wrote a poem about him like his his dad wrote a poem about him he called him the astronaut about how he he called him the astronaut about how he he called him the astronaut about how he came from outer space he seemed like he came from outer space he seemed like he came from outer space he seemed like he came from outer space I'm like this is came from outer space I'm like this is came from outer space I'm like this is his dad's view of his son like that's his dad's view of his son like that's his dad's view of his son like that's how weird of a guy he was you know and how weird of a guy he was you know and how weird of a guy he was you know and so I try to like find that keep alert so I try to like find that keep alert so I try to like find that keep alert for those funny kind of human touches for those funny kind of human touches for those funny kind of human touches that like these are ultimately just that like these are ultimately just that like these are ultimately just people you know people with ideas that people you know people with ideas that people you know people with ideas that they spent enough time polishing up and they spent enough time polishing up and they spent enough time polishing up and developing that we still want to read developing that we still want to read developing that we still want to read about them a hundred years later what about them a hundred years later what about them a hundred years later what about the dramatic formulation of that about the dramatic formulation of that about the dramatic formulation of that same question do you think there's some same question do you think there's some same question do you think there's some ideas that are good and some of that are ideas that are good and some of that are ideas that are good and some of that are evil do you think we can draw such lines evil do you think we can draw such lines evil do you think we can draw such lines or is it more complicated like the old or is it more complicated like the old or is it more complicated like the old soulen line between good and evil that soulen line between good and evil that soulen line between good and evil that runs to the heart of every person I mean runs to the heart of every person I mean runs to the heart of every person I mean I uh philosophically agree with souls I uh philosophically agree with souls I uh philosophically agree with souls and nen for sure I do think some ideas and nen for sure I do think some ideas and nen for sure I do think some ideas pull on the good side and some ideas pull on the good side and some ideas pull on the good side and some ideas pull on the bad side like absolutely and pull on the bad side like absolutely and pull on the bad side like absolutely and I think that's probably that's probably I think that's probably that's probably I think that's probably that's probably why people dislike ran so much as they why people dislike ran so much as they why people dislike ran so much as they feel like she's giving license to the feel like she's giving license to the feel like she's giving license to the bad side and she's saying it's okay to bad side and she's saying it's okay to bad side and she's saying it's okay to be selfish and it's okay you know they be selfish and it's okay you know they be selfish and it's okay you know they feel like she's unloosing the dark feel like she's unloosing the dark feel like she's unloosing the dark Forces Forces Forces um and you know in some cases that may

um and you know in some cases that may um and you know in some cases that may be true but I also she's also un un be true but I also she's also un un be true but I also she's also un un loosing some of the light forces in loosing some of the light forces in loosing some of the light forces in terms of reflecting on yourself and terms of reflecting on yourself and terms of reflecting on yourself and trying to trying to be true but trying to trying to be true but trying to trying to be true but definitely there are ideas that are definitely there are ideas that are definitely there are ideas that are dangerous to play with and there are dangerous to play with and there are dangerous to play with and there are ideas that I think give license to the ideas that I think give license to the ideas that I think give license to the darker sides of human nature um but I darker sides of human nature um but I darker sides of human nature um but I think you can see that in the historical think you can see that in the historical think you can see that in the historical record so I think that it's possible to record so I think that it's possible to record so I think that it's possible to show that and obviously there's some show that and obviously there's some show that and obviously there's some places you know like Germany they're try places you know like Germany they're try places you know like Germany they're try they think the ideas are so dangerous they think the ideas are so dangerous they think the ideas are so dangerous they can't be allowed to circulate and they can't be allowed to circulate and they can't be allowed to circulate and in some context that may absolutely be in some context that may absolutely be in some context that may absolutely be true and true and true and then still even that we should take with then still even that we should take with then still even that we should take with a grain of salt because perhaps a grain of salt because perhaps a grain of salt because perhaps censorship of an idea is more dangerous censorship of an idea is more dangerous censorship of an idea is more dangerous than the idea so all of that that's the than the idea so all of that that's the than the idea so all of that that's the beautiful thing about us humans we are beautiful thing about us humans we are beautiful thing about us humans we are always at T at tension trying to figure always at T at tension trying to figure always at T at tension trying to figure out what ideas are the ones that are out what ideas are the ones that are out what ideas are the ones that are going to help Humanity flourish uh going to help Humanity flourish uh going to help Humanity flourish uh pothead question pothead question pothead question yeah do humans have ideas or do ideas yeah do humans have ideas or do ideas yeah do humans have ideas or do ideas have us so where do ideas come from you have us so where do ideas come from you have us so where do ideas come from you have Milton Freeman sitting there after have Milton Freeman sitting there after have Milton Freeman sitting there after rugger is trying to figure out what he rugger is trying to figure out what he rugger is trying to figure out what he can do about the Great can do about the Great can do about the Great Depression um what like where do you Depression um what like where do you Depression um what like where do you ever think about this like I I sometimes ever think about this like I I sometimes ever think about this like I I sometimes think that ideas are aliens are actually think that ideas are aliens are actually think that ideas are aliens are actually ideas they're just kind of like travel ideas they're just kind of like travel ideas they're just kind of like travel through human brains and like uh through human brains and like uh through human brains and like uh Captivate Us and we get all real excited Captivate Us and we get all real excited Captivate Us and we get all real excited uh like with a monolith in 2001 Space

uh like with a monolith in 2001 Space uh like with a monolith in 2001 Space Odyssey a monolith lands and everybody Odyssey a monolith lands and everybody Odyssey a monolith lands and everybody gets excited and somehow this idea just gets excited and somehow this idea just gets excited and somehow this idea just gets everybody to be on the same page gets everybody to be on the same page gets everybody to be on the same page and it reverberates through the and it reverberates through the and it reverberates through the community and then that results in an community and then that results in an community and then that results in an implementation of some action that implementation of some action that implementation of some action that results in US figuring out that that results in US figuring out that that results in US figuring out that that idea was actually bad and we learn new idea was actually bad and we learn new idea was actually bad and we learn new ideas and but that it feels like the ideas and but that it feels like the ideas and but that it feels like the idea is running the show yeah I mean I idea is running the show yeah I mean I idea is running the show yeah I mean I think in a lot of is I think it's true think in a lot of is I think it's true think in a lot of is I think it's true you know there Kan has this famous quote you know there Kan has this famous quote you know there Kan has this famous quote like you know most men are slaves of like you know most men are slaves of like you know most men are slaves of some defunct Economist you some defunct Economist you some defunct Economist you know so um that's funny so I do think know so um that's funny so I do think know so um that's funny so I do think that we like it's really hard to have an that we like it's really hard to have an that we like it's really hard to have an original thought you know we are social original thought you know we are social original thought you know we are social creatures we encounter the same creatures we encounter the same creatures we encounter the same situations again and again um and so situations again and again um and so situations again and again um and so it's really hard you're born into these it's really hard you're born into these it's really hard you're born into these traditions of thinking and being and traditions of thinking and being and traditions of thinking and being and knowing and most people are never going knowing and most people are never going knowing and most people are never going to question them and most people are to question them and most people are to question them and most people are never going to become aware of them so never going to become aware of them so never going to become aware of them so again that's some of the work of what I again that's some of the work of what I again that's some of the work of what I do as an intellectual historian is like do as an intellectual historian is like do as an intellectual historian is like let's become aware let's realize that let's become aware let's realize that let's become aware let's realize that you're carrying a map that's orienting you're carrying a map that's orienting you're carrying a map that's orienting you to the world in a certain way right you to the world in a certain way right you to the world in a certain way right and so um I think you have to work and so um I think you have to work and so um I think you have to work really really hard to have an original really really hard to have an original really really hard to have an original idea and even then it's not a completely idea and even then it's not a completely idea and even then it's not a completely original idea it's a reworking and a original idea it's a reworking and a original idea it's a reworking and a reassembling of ideas others have had so reassembling of ideas others have had so reassembling of ideas others have had so I definitely think it's possible to I definitely think it's possible to I definitely think it's possible to create autonomy in the realm of ideas create autonomy in the realm of ideas create autonomy in the realm of ideas and to be an autonomous consumer of and to be an autonomous consumer of and to be an autonomous consumer of ideas but I think on balance most people ideas but I think on balance most people ideas but I think on balance most people are not and that's fine they want to

are not and that's fine they want to are not and that's fine they want to have experiences they want to do other have experiences they want to do other have experiences they want to do other things with their life you know well things with their life you know well things with their life you know well Jennifer thank you so much for this Jennifer thank you so much for this Jennifer thank you so much for this journey through ideas today and thank journey through ideas today and thank journey through ideas today and thank you so much for your incredible work uh you so much for your incredible work uh you so much for your incredible work uh it was really fun and fascinating uh to it was really fun and fascinating uh to it was really fun and fascinating uh to talk with you today thank you thank you talk with you today thank you thank you talk with you today thank you thank you thank you for listening to this thank you for listening to this thank you for listening to this conversation with Jennifer Burns and now conversation with Jennifer Burns and now conversation with Jennifer Burns and now let me try to reflect on and articulate let me try to reflect on and articulate let me try to reflect on and articulate some things I've been thinking about if some things I've been thinking about if some things I've been thinking about if you would like to submit questions or you would like to submit questions or you would like to submit questions or topics that I can comment on in this way topics that I can comment on in this way topics that I can comment on in this way here at the end of episodes go to Lex here at the end of episodes go to Lex here at the end of episodes go to Lex freeman.com freeman.com freeman.com or contact me for whatever other reason or contact me for whatever other reason or contact me for whatever other reason at Lex freeman.com at Lex freeman.com at Lex freeman.com contact please allow me to say a few contact please allow me to say a few contact please allow me to say a few words about my interview with the words about my interview with the words about my interview with the president of Ukraine Vladimir zalinski president of Ukraine Vladimir zalinski president of Ukraine Vladimir zalinski now that a few days have passed and I've now that a few days have passed and I've now that a few days have passed and I've had the chance to think about the had the chance to think about the had the chance to think about the conversation itself the response future conversation itself the response future conversation itself the response future upcoming conversations and what it all upcoming conversations and what it all upcoming conversations and what it all means for the war in Ukraine for Global means for the war in Ukraine for Global means for the war in Ukraine for Global geopolitics and for us humans in general geopolitics and for us humans in general geopolitics and for us humans in general I've gotten a lot of heartfelt positive I've gotten a lot of heartfelt positive I've gotten a lot of heartfelt positive words from all sides including at least words from all sides including at least words from all sides including at least so far literally everybody who knows me so far literally everybody who knows me so far literally everybody who knows me personally inside Ukraine which includes personally inside Ukraine which includes personally inside Ukraine which includes a lot of soldiers and many high-profile a lot of soldiers and many high-profile a lot of soldiers and many high-profile figures some who are supportive of the figures some who are supportive of the figures some who are supportive of the president and some who critical of him president and some who critical of him president and some who critical of him literally all private community literally all private community literally all private community communication has been positive and communication has been positive and communication has been positive and supportive this is usually not the case supportive this is usually not the case supportive this is usually not the case with me friends usually will write to me

with me friends usually will write to me with me friends usually will write to me to criticize and to disagree that's the to criticize and to disagree that's the to criticize and to disagree that's the whole point of friendship to argue and whole point of friendship to argue and whole point of friendship to argue and have fun doing it there was none of that have fun doing it there was none of that have fun doing it there was none of that here at least so far so thank you for here at least so far so thank you for here at least so far so thank you for your support and kind words it means the your support and kind words it means the your support and kind words it means the world the most common message was please world the most common message was please world the most common message was please keep pushing for keep pushing for keep pushing for peace I peace I peace I will but online on the interwebs I saw a will but online on the interwebs I saw a will but online on the interwebs I saw a lot of attacks sometimes from swarms of lot of attacks sometimes from swarms of lot of attacks sometimes from swarms of online accounts which of course makes me online accounts which of course makes me online accounts which of course makes me suspicious about the origin of those suspicious about the origin of those suspicious about the origin of those attacks one of my friends in Ukraine who attacks one of my friends in Ukraine who attacks one of my friends in Ukraine who by the way thinks the attacks are all by the way thinks the attacks are all by the way thinks the attacks are all propped up by Ukrainian B Farms said propped up by Ukrainian B Farms said propped up by Ukrainian B Farms said there's no need to say anything extra there's no need to say anything extra there's no need to say anything extra let the interview stand on its own just let the interview stand on its own just let the interview stand on its own just keep focused on the mission of pushing keep focused on the mission of pushing keep focused on the mission of pushing for for for peace basically he's a Ukrainian version peace basically he's a Ukrainian version peace basically he's a Ukrainian version of my of my of my friend Joe Rogan who to this day says friend Joe Rogan who to this day says friend Joe Rogan who to this day says don't read the comments this is don't read the comments this is don't read the comments this is generally good advice and I try to generally good advice and I try to generally good advice and I try to follow it but I'm also a human being I follow it but I'm also a human being I follow it but I'm also a human being I wear my heart on my sleeve and this wear my heart on my sleeve and this wear my heart on my sleeve and this interview this war for me is deeply interview this war for me is deeply interview this war for me is deeply personal and the level of vital personal and the level of vital personal and the level of vital misrepresentation and lies about the misrepresentation and lies about the misrepresentation and lies about the conversation and about me personally was conversation and about me personally was conversation and about me personally was particularly intense and disingenuous so particularly intense and disingenuous so particularly intense and disingenuous so I thought I would use this opportunity I thought I would use this opportunity I thought I would use this opportunity to say a few words just speak a bit more to say a few words just speak a bit more to say a few words just speak a bit more about how I approach this conversation about how I approach this conversation about how I approach this conversation with president zilinski and with president zilinski and with president zilinski and conversations in general this interview

conversations in general this interview conversations in general this interview is something I poured my heart and soul is something I poured my heart and soul is something I poured my heart and soul into preparing a lot I've described into preparing a lot I've described into preparing a lot I've described parts of the preparation process I parts of the preparation process I parts of the preparation process I follow in the outro to this Zas follow in the outro to this Zas follow in the outro to this Zas conversation but in general let me say conversation but in general let me say conversation but in general let me say that I've read a lot listened to a lot that I've read a lot listened to a lot that I've read a lot listened to a lot and had a lot of private conversations and had a lot of private conversations and had a lot of private conversations with people on the ground I have many with people on the ground I have many with people on the ground I have many flaws but being unprepared for this flaws but being unprepared for this flaws but being unprepared for this conversation is not one of them two low conversation is not one of them two low conversation is not one of them two low effort attacks got to me a bit if I'm effort attacks got to me a bit if I'm effort attacks got to me a bit if I'm being honest though I am learning to being honest though I am learning to being honest though I am learning to take it all in stride first attack is take it all in stride first attack is take it all in stride first attack is that I'm unprepared uninformed or that I'm unprepared uninformed or that I'm unprepared uninformed or naive I don't give a damn about the naive I don't give a damn about the naive I don't give a damn about the Trolls but I want people who listen to Trolls but I want people who listen to Trolls but I want people who listen to me who support me who care about my me who support me who care about my me who support me who care about my words to know that this is not the case words to know that this is not the case words to know that this is not the case it never will be the case for future it never will be the case for future it never will be the case for future conversations ESP especially ones of conversations ESP especially ones of conversations ESP especially ones of this this this importance I work extremely hard to importance I work extremely hard to importance I work extremely hard to prepare second low effort attack that prepare second low effort attack that prepare second low effort attack that got to me a bit is that I'm a shill for got to me a bit is that I'm a shill for got to me a bit is that I'm a shill for zalinski or a shill for Putin both zalinski or a shill for Putin both zalinski or a shill for Putin both accusations were hurled readily and accusations were hurled readily and accusations were hurled readily and freely by the online mob of all freely by the online mob of all freely by the online mob of all Persuasions by the left and the right in Persuasions by the left and the right in Persuasions by the left and the right in the United States and Europe by the pro the United States and Europe by the pro the United States and Europe by the pro and the anti zaleski people in Ukraine and the anti zaleski people in Ukraine and the anti zaleski people in Ukraine or of Ukrainian Origins and by the pro or of Ukrainian Origins and by the pro or of Ukrainian Origins and by the pro and anti-putin people in Russia or of and anti-putin people in Russia or of and anti-putin people in Russia or of Russian Russian Russian Origins as I've said over and over this Origins as I've said over and over this Origins as I've said over and over this is not the case and will never be the

is not the case and will never be the is not the case and will never be the case I'm a shield for no one more than case I'm a shield for no one more than case I'm a shield for no one more than that I just simply refuse to be caught that I just simply refuse to be caught that I just simply refuse to be caught in any one single Echo chamber it's an in any one single Echo chamber it's an in any one single Echo chamber it's an ongoing Battle of course because social ongoing Battle of course because social ongoing Battle of course because social media algorithms and the various media algorithms and the various media algorithms and the various dogmatic groups and tribes out there dogmatic groups and tribes out there dogmatic groups and tribes out there want to pull you in to their warmer want to pull you in to their warmer want to pull you in to their warmer Embrace of belonging and human Embrace of belonging and human Embrace of belonging and human want to want to want to belong but the cost of the path I have belong but the cost of the path I have belong but the cost of the path I have chosen is that I will never belong to chosen is that I will never belong to chosen is that I will never belong to any one group in the end like many of us any one group in the end like many of us any one group in the end like many of us must I walk must I walk must I walk alone and I try to do my best to do what alone and I try to do my best to do what alone and I try to do my best to do what is right to my independent heart and is right to my independent heart and is right to my independent heart and mind not what is popular with anyone mind not what is popular with anyone mind not what is popular with anyone group my goals for this conversation group my goals for this conversation group my goals for this conversation were twofold first give a large platform were twofold first give a large platform were twofold first give a large platform to president zalinski to explain his to president zalinski to explain his to president zalinski to explain his perspective on the war and to do so in a perspective on the war and to do so in a perspective on the war and to do so in a way that brings out the best in who he way that brings out the best in who he way that brings out the best in who he is as a leader and human is as a leader and human is as a leader and human being second goal was to push for peace being second goal was to push for peace being second goal was to push for peace and to give him every opportunity and to give him every opportunity and to give him every opportunity possible to signal that he's ready to possible to signal that he's ready to possible to signal that he's ready to make peace and to provide his vision for make peace and to provide his vision for make peace and to provide his vision for what that might look what that might look what that might look like and just to be clear by peace I like and just to be clear by peace I like and just to be clear by peace I mean longlasting peace that minimizes mean longlasting peace that minimizes mean longlasting peace that minimizes suffering of people in the region and suffering of people in the region and suffering of people in the region and maximizes the flourishing of humanity in maximizes the flourishing of humanity in maximizes the flourishing of humanity in the coming the coming the coming decades the war in Ukraine has led to decades the war in Ukraine has led to decades the war in Ukraine has led to over 1 million casualties and growing over 1 million casualties and growing over 1 million casualties and growing every single day for some people torn

every single day for some people torn every single day for some people torn apart by loss tormented and forced into apart by loss tormented and forced into apart by loss tormented and forced into a state of anger and hate peace is a a state of anger and hate peace is a a state of anger and hate peace is a dirty word to them nothing less than dirty word to them nothing less than dirty word to them nothing less than Justice must be Justice must be Justice must be accepted I hear this pain I've seen the accepted I hear this pain I've seen the accepted I hear this pain I've seen the bodies and the suffering bodies and the suffering bodies and the suffering it's true peace will not bring back your it's true peace will not bring back your it's true peace will not bring back your loved ones but it will prevent further loved ones but it will prevent further loved ones but it will prevent further Slaughter of more people each of whom Slaughter of more people each of whom Slaughter of more people each of whom are someone else's loved are someone else's loved are someone else's loved ones so again the second goal of this ones so again the second goal of this ones so again the second goal of this conversation was to push for this kind conversation was to push for this kind conversation was to push for this kind of Peace so how did I approach it every Peace so how did I approach it every conversation is its own puzzle so let me conversation is its own puzzle so let me conversation is its own puzzle so let me try to explain my Approach for this one try to explain my Approach for this one try to explain my Approach for this one as I've said I read and listen into a as I've said I read and listen into a as I've said I read and listen into a lot of material since February 24th lot of material since February 24th lot of material since February 24th 2022 there would be many weeks over the 2022 there would be many weeks over the 2022 there would be many weeks over the past 3 years where I would spend every past 3 years where I would spend every past 3 years where I would spend every day over 8 hours a day of focused day over 8 hours a day of focused day over 8 hours a day of focused reading and reading and reading and research there were several rabbit holes research there were several rabbit holes research there were several rabbit holes that I consistently returned to and that I consistently returned to and that I consistently returned to and researched but the most important line researched but the most important line researched but the most important line of inquiry was always peace talks not of inquiry was always peace talks not of inquiry was always peace talks not just in this war but in other Wars in just in this war but in other Wars in just in this war but in other Wars in modern modern modern history for this specific War as part of history for this specific War as part of history for this specific War as part of the background prep I would take notes the background prep I would take notes the background prep I would take notes on every single perspective I could find on every single perspective I could find on every single perspective I could find on every single major diplomatic meeting on every single major diplomatic meeting on every single major diplomatic meeting and negotiation that happened in Ukraine and negotiation that happened in Ukraine and negotiation that happened in Ukraine Russia relations since

Russia relations since Russia relations since 1991 there is a lot of material to go 1991 there is a lot of material to go 1991 there is a lot of material to go through and there are a lot of through and there are a lot of through and there are a lot of perspectives even on the very 2019 perspectives even on the very 2019 perspectives even on the very 2019 meeting that President zalinsky spoke meeting that President zalinsky spoke meeting that President zalinsky spoke about in this podcast just as a small about in this podcast just as a small about in this podcast just as a small but important example Andre bokan was but important example Andre bokan was but important example Andre bokan was interviewed twice by Dimitri Gordon and interviewed twice by Dimitri Gordon and interviewed twice by Dimitri Gordon and gave a deep inside look of the gave a deep inside look of the gave a deep inside look of the administration of President zalinski administration of President zalinski administration of President zalinski including that very 2019 meeting the two including that very 2019 meeting the two including that very 2019 meeting the two interviews are 7 and 1 half hours by the interviews are 7 and 1 half hours by the interviews are 7 and 1 half hours by the way and from my interviewer perspective way and from my interviewer perspective way and from my interviewer perspective are a master class of are a master class of are a master class of interviewing Andre bdan worked directly interviewing Andre bdan worked directly interviewing Andre bdan worked directly with President zalinski as the head of with President zalinski as the head of with President zalinski as the head of the Office of the President of Ukraine the Office of the President of Ukraine the Office of the President of Ukraine he was there for the 2019 face-to-face he was there for the 2019 face-to-face he was there for the 2019 face-to-face meeting between Vladimir zinski and meeting between Vladimir zinski and meeting between Vladimir zinski and Vladimir Putin at the Paris Summit along Vladimir Putin at the Paris Summit along Vladimir Putin at the Paris Summit along with French president Emanuel macron and with French president Emanuel macron and with French president Emanuel macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel this was German Chancellor Angela Merkel this was German Chancellor Angela Merkel this was part of the Normandy format peace part of the Normandy format peace part of the Normandy format peace talks in those two interviews Andre bdan talks in those two interviews Andre bdan talks in those two interviews Andre bdan gave a very different perspective on gave a very different perspective on gave a very different perspective on that 2019 meeting then did President that 2019 meeting then did President that 2019 meeting then did President zalinski to me in our zalinski to me in our zalinski to me in our conversation the perspective being that conversation the perspective being that conversation the perspective being that the failure to negotiate a ceasefire and the failure to negotiate a ceasefire and the failure to negotiate a ceasefire and peace was not a simple one-sided story peace was not a simple one-sided story peace was not a simple one-sided story I don't think this is the right time for I don't think this is the right time for I don't think this is the right time for me to dive into that data point and be me to dive into that data point and be me to dive into that data point and be critical I'm not interested in being critical I'm not interested in being critical I'm not interested in being critical for the sake of criticism I am critical for the sake of criticism I am critical for the sake of criticism I am interested once again in productive

interested once again in productive interested once again in productive conversations critical or otherwise that conversations critical or otherwise that conversations critical or otherwise that push towards peace the kind I described push towards peace the kind I described push towards peace the kind I described earlier this is merely an example of a earlier this is merely an example of a earlier this is merely an example of a data point I was collecting in my brain data point I was collecting in my brain data point I was collecting in my brain there are many many others but all of it there are many many others but all of it there are many many others but all of it taken together made it clear to me me taken together made it clear to me me taken together made it clear to me me and I still believe this that it is and I still believe this that it is and I still believe this that it is indeed very difficult but possible to indeed very difficult but possible to indeed very difficult but possible to negotiate longlasting peace with negotiate longlasting peace with negotiate longlasting peace with Vladimir Vladimir Vladimir Putin it is certainly true that Ukraine Putin it is certainly true that Ukraine Putin it is certainly true that Ukraine is best positioned to negotiate from a is best positioned to negotiate from a is best positioned to negotiate from a place of strength after the invasion of place of strength after the invasion of place of strength after the invasion of February 24th 2022 I believe there were February 24th 2022 I believe there were February 24th 2022 I believe there were three chances where peace was most three chances where peace was most three chances where peace was most achievable first chance was March and achievable first chance was March and achievable first chance was March and April of 2022 with a successful defense April of 2022 with a successful defense April of 2022 with a successful defense of the of the of the North Second Chance was the fall of North Second Chance was the fall of North Second Chance was the fall of 2022 with the successful counter 2022 with the successful counter 2022 with the successful counter offensive in hon and Har the third offensive in hon and Har the third offensive in hon and Har the third chance is chance is chance is now as he has stated multiple times now as he has stated multiple times now as he has stated multiple times publicly Donald Trump is very interested publicly Donald Trump is very interested publicly Donald Trump is very interested in making peace it is likely that the US in making peace it is likely that the US in making peace it is likely that the US Financial support for this war will Financial support for this war will Financial support for this war will continue to dwindle so the leverage and continue to dwindle so the leverage and continue to dwindle so the leverage and the timing for peace negotiation is the timing for peace negotiation is the timing for peace negotiation is now there is unlikely to be another now there is unlikely to be another now there is unlikely to be another chance like this for a long chance like this for a long chance like this for a long time just to zoom out on the time just to zoom out on the time just to zoom out on the conversation piece of this I interviewed conversation piece of this I interviewed conversation piece of this I interviewed Donald Trump and may do so again I Donald Trump and may do so again I Donald Trump and may do so again I interviewed Vladimir zalinski and may do

interviewed Vladimir zalinski and may do interviewed Vladimir zalinski and may do so again and it seems likely that I will so again and it seems likely that I will so again and it seems likely that I will interview Vladimir Putin in Russia in interview Vladimir Putin in Russia in interview Vladimir Putin in Russia in the the the Kremlin I understand the risks and I Kremlin I understand the risks and I Kremlin I understand the risks and I accept them the risks for me are not accept them the risks for me are not accept them the risks for me are not important I'm not important I merely important I'm not important I merely important I'm not important I merely want to do my small part in pushing for want to do my small part in pushing for want to do my small part in pushing for peace in a moment in history when peace in a moment in history when peace in a moment in history when there's a real chance for that peace to there's a real chance for that peace to there's a real chance for that peace to actually be actually be actually be achieved I may be speaking too long I'm achieved I may be speaking too long I'm achieved I may be speaking too long I'm sorry but I can probably speak for many sorry but I can probably speak for many sorry but I can probably speak for many more hours so this is in fact me trying more hours so this is in fact me trying more hours so this is in fact me trying to be brief so again my two goals were to be brief so again my two goals were to be brief so again my two goals were to bring out the best in president to bring out the best in president to bring out the best in president zalinski as a leader and a human being zalinski as a leader and a human being zalinski as a leader and a human being and to give him every opportunity and to give him every opportunity and to give him every opportunity possible to signal that he is ready to possible to signal that he is ready to possible to signal that he is ready to make peace and to lay out his vision for make peace and to lay out his vision for make peace and to lay out his vision for what that peace might look like what that peace might look like what that peace might look like like I said Step 1 through 10 is prepare like I said Step 1 through 10 is prepare like I said Step 1 through 10 is prepare well I did but Step 11 is the actual well I did but Step 11 is the actual well I did but Step 11 is the actual conversation there the specific conversation there the specific conversation there the specific psychological and personality quirks and psychological and personality quirks and psychological and personality quirks and qualities of the guest matter a lot my qualities of the guest matter a lot my qualities of the guest matter a lot my job is to try to cut through the job is to try to cut through the job is to try to cut through the walls we put up as human beings walls we put up as human beings walls we put up as human beings and reveal directly or indirectly who and reveal directly or indirectly who and reveal directly or indirectly who the person truly is and how they the person truly is and how they the person truly is and how they think with zalinski he is a deeply think with zalinski he is a deeply think with zalinski he is a deeply empathic and emotional human being being empathic and emotional human being being empathic and emotional human being being who personally feels the suffering of who personally feels the suffering of who personally feels the suffering of the people of Ukraine in this war this the people of Ukraine in this war this the people of Ukraine in this war this is a strength and perhaps also a is a strength and perhaps also a is a strength and perhaps also a weakness but it is an important part of weakness but it is an important part of weakness but it is an important part of the reason why I said many times that he

the reason why I said many times that he the reason why I said many times that he is a truly historic is a truly historic is a truly historic figure very few leaders in recent figure very few leaders in recent figure very few leaders in recent history would be able to pull off what history would be able to pull off what history would be able to pull off what he did to stay in Kiev to unite the he did to stay in Kiev to unite the he did to stay in Kiev to unite the country to convince the West to join the country to convince the West to join the country to convince the West to join the war effort to the degree they war effort to the degree they war effort to the degree they did he is also a showman to borrow the did he is also a showman to borrow the did he is also a showman to borrow the title of the biography I recommended a title of the biography I recommended a title of the biography I recommended a man with many layers of humor and wit man with many layers of humor and wit man with many layers of humor and wit but also ego and but also ego and but also ego and temper sometimes fully self-aware and temper sometimes fully self-aware and temper sometimes fully self-aware and sometimes losing himself in the sometimes losing himself in the sometimes losing himself in the emotional roller coaster of a painful emotional roller coaster of a painful emotional roller coaster of a painful memory or a turn of phrase that he can memory or a turn of phrase that he can memory or a turn of phrase that he can use as a springboard for a angry use as a springboard for a angry use as a springboard for a angry Soliloquy add to this the fact that we Soliloquy add to this the fact that we Soliloquy add to this the fact that we didn't agree to anything what we will didn't agree to anything what we will didn't agree to anything what we will talk about or how long we will talk talk about or how long we will talk talk about or how long we will talk about it the interview could have easily about it the interview could have easily about it the interview could have easily been 5 minutes or 3 hours so I had to been 5 minutes or 3 hours so I had to been 5 minutes or 3 hours so I had to quickly gain his trust enough to open up quickly gain his trust enough to open up quickly gain his trust enough to open up and stay for a long form conversation and stay for a long form conversation and stay for a long form conversation but push him enough to reveal the but push him enough to reveal the but push him enough to reveal the complexities of his thought process and complexities of his thought process and complexities of his thought process and his his his situation this is where humor and situation this is where humor and situation this is where humor and camaraderie was essential and I would camaraderie was essential and I would camaraderie was essential and I would return to it often though it was very return to it often though it was very return to it often though it was very difficult given the stakes the heaviness difficult given the stakes the heaviness difficult given the stakes the heaviness the seriousness of the topic of the war the seriousness of the topic of the war the seriousness of the topic of the war so in this case the approach I followed so in this case the approach I followed so in this case the approach I followed for this conversation is constant nudges for this conversation is constant nudges for this conversation is constant nudges and questions about peace often using and questions about peace often using and questions about peace often using almost childlike statements or questions almost childlike statements or questions almost childlike statements or questions I generally like these kinds of I generally like these kinds of I generally like these kinds of questions on the surface they may seem

questions on the surface they may seem questions on the surface they may seem naive but they're not they are often naive but they're not they are often naive but they're not they are often profound in their Simplicity like a lot profound in their Simplicity like a lot profound in their Simplicity like a lot of questions that children ask remember of questions that children ask remember of questions that children ask remember it was a child who pointed out that the it was a child who pointed out that the it was a child who pointed out that the emperor was not wearing any emperor was not wearing any emperor was not wearing any clothes I like the simplicity the Purity clothes I like the simplicity the Purity clothes I like the simplicity the Purity the boldness of such questions to cut the boldness of such questions to cut the boldness of such questions to cut through the to the through the to the through the to the truth and that truth is that hundreds of truth and that truth is that hundreds of truth and that truth is that hundreds of thousands of people died in this war and thousands of people died in this war and thousands of people died in this war and are dying every are dying every are dying every day and all the other problems from day and all the other problems from day and all the other problems from corruption to suspended elections to corruption to suspended elections to corruption to suspended elections to censorship cannot be solved until peace censorship cannot be solved until peace censorship cannot be solved until peace is is is made I give the president every single made I give the president every single made I give the president every single chance to Signal willingness to chance to Signal willingness to chance to Signal willingness to negotiate knowing that both Trump and negotiate knowing that both Trump and negotiate knowing that both Trump and Putin will listen to this convers Putin will listen to this convers Putin will listen to this convers ation I don't think he took it and ation I don't think he took it and ation I don't think he took it and instead chose to speak very crude words instead chose to speak very crude words instead chose to speak very crude words towards Vladimir Putin this is fully towards Vladimir Putin this is fully towards Vladimir Putin this is fully understandable but not directly understandable but not directly understandable but not directly productive to negotiation to clarify I productive to negotiation to clarify I productive to negotiation to clarify I have hosted many conversations that were have hosted many conversations that were have hosted many conversations that were intensely critical of Vladimir Putin intensely critical of Vladimir Putin intensely critical of Vladimir Putin from sirohi to Steven ckin but this from sirohi to Steven ckin but this from sirohi to Steven ckin but this conversation is with a world leader conversation is with a world leader conversation is with a world leader speaking about another world leader speaking about another world leader speaking about another world leader during a historic opportunity for for during a historic opportunity for for during a historic opportunity for for peace crude words of disrespect while peace crude words of disrespect while peace crude words of disrespect while powerful May harm powerful May harm powerful May harm negotiations peace making in this negotiations peace making in this negotiations peace making in this situation requires compromise in order situation requires compromise in order situation requires compromise in order to avoid further death and suffering and

to avoid further death and suffering and to avoid further death and suffering and I believe it requires treating the other I believe it requires treating the other I believe it requires treating the other leader with a seriousness you expect him leader with a seriousness you expect him leader with a seriousness you expect him to treat you with this is what I was to treat you with this is what I was to treat you with this is what I was pushing pushing pushing for all that while also putting my ego for all that while also putting my ego for all that while also putting my ego aside and letting the president shine aside and letting the president shine aside and letting the president shine which is necessary to accomplish both which is necessary to accomplish both which is necessary to accomplish both goals one and two that I mentioned goals one and two that I mentioned goals one and two that I mentioned previously this is also why I wanted the previously this is also why I wanted the previously this is also why I wanted the president to speak about Elon and Trump president to speak about Elon and Trump president to speak about Elon and Trump to extend the olive branch for further to extend the olive branch for further to extend the olive branch for further Avenues of peacemaking this is not about Avenues of peacemaking this is not about Avenues of peacemaking this is not about politics it is once again simply about politics it is once again simply about politics it is once again simply about peace now all of this my words my peace now all of this my words my peace now all of this my words my attempts were taken out of context and attempts were taken out of context and attempts were taken out of context and used to attack me by some online mobs as used to attack me by some online mobs as used to attack me by some online mobs as an example president zalinsky said in a an example president zalinsky said in a an example president zalinsky said in a mocking tone that he think thinks that mocking tone that he think thinks that mocking tone that he think thinks that Vladimir Putin is simply irritated by Vladimir Putin is simply irritated by Vladimir Putin is simply irritated by people who are alive in Ukraine and I people who are alive in Ukraine and I people who are alive in Ukraine and I answered quote if you believe this it answered quote if you believe this it answered quote if you believe this it will be very difficult to negotiate if will be very difficult to negotiate if will be very difficult to negotiate if you think that the president of a you think that the president of a you think that the president of a country is completely crazy it is really country is completely crazy it is really country is completely crazy it is really hard to come to an agreement with him hard to come to an agreement with him hard to come to an agreement with him you have to look at him as a serious you have to look at him as a serious you have to look at him as a serious person who loves his country and loves person who loves his country and loves person who loves his country and loves the people in this country and he the people in this country and he the people in this country and he conducts yes destructive military conducts yes destructive military conducts yes destructive military actions actions actions the president interrupted me at this the president interrupted me at this the president interrupted me at this point and said who are you talking about point and said who are you talking about point and said who are you talking about now who loves this country and I said now who loves this country and I said now who loves this country and I said Putin do you think he doesn't love his Putin do you think he doesn't love his Putin do you think he doesn't love his country and the president answered

country and the president answered country and the president answered no again this is not a podcast no again this is not a podcast no again this is not a podcast conversation with a historian or conversation with a historian or conversation with a historian or activist and I somehow out of nowhere activist and I somehow out of nowhere activist and I somehow out of nowhere just for fun waxed poetic about Putin's just for fun waxed poetic about Putin's just for fun waxed poetic about Putin's or zalinsky or Trump's love of nation it or zalinsky or Trump's love of nation it or zalinsky or Trump's love of nation it is a conversation with a world leader is a conversation with a world leader is a conversation with a world leader discussing the opportunity to negotiate discussing the opportunity to negotiate discussing the opportunity to negotiate peace when a large number of people are peace when a large number of people are peace when a large number of people are dying every single dying every single dying every single day even if the heart boils over with day even if the heart boils over with day even if the heart boils over with hate leadership now requires sitting at hate leadership now requires sitting at hate leadership now requires sitting at the negotiation table and compromising the negotiation table and compromising the negotiation table and compromising this may be painful but it is this may be painful but it is this may be painful but it is necessary there are a few other places necessary there are a few other places necessary there are a few other places in the conversation where some online in the conversation where some online in the conversation where some online mobs took my words out of context and mobs took my words out of context and mobs took my words out of context and used them to call me naive and to call used them to call me naive and to call used them to call me naive and to call for more war saying peace is impossible for more war saying peace is impossible for more war saying peace is impossible with a man who they claim is the second with a man who they claim is the second with a man who they claim is the second coming of coming of coming of Hitler my friends if you make such Hitler my friends if you make such Hitler my friends if you make such attacks on this conversation it is in attacks on this conversation it is in attacks on this conversation it is in fact you who are naive and ignorant of fact you who are naive and ignorant of fact you who are naive and ignorant of The Facts of history and The Facts of history and The Facts of history and geopolitics peace must be made now in geopolitics peace must be made now in geopolitics peace must be made now in order for death and suffering to stop in order for death and suffering to stop in order for death and suffering to stop in order for Ukraine to have a chance to order for Ukraine to have a chance to order for Ukraine to have a chance to flourish and in order for the drums of a flourish and in order for the drums of a flourish and in order for the drums of a global war to stop global war to stop global war to stop beating a global war that would beating a global war that would beating a global war that would Humanity this was my goal once again to Humanity this was my goal once again to Humanity this was my goal once again to push for push for push for peace and I will continue this effort to

peace and I will continue this effort to peace and I will continue this effort to the best of my the best of my the best of my ability thank you I love you all