Climate Change Debate: Bjørn Lomborg and Andrew Revkin | Lex Fridman Podcast #339

people all around the world their lives people all around the world their lives are basically dependent on fossil fuels are basically dependent on fossil fuels are basically dependent on fossil fuels and so the idea that we're going to get and so the idea that we're going to get and so the idea that we're going to get people off by making it so expensive people off by making it so expensive people off by making it so expensive that it becomes impossible for them to that it becomes impossible for them to that it becomes impossible for them to live good lives is almost morally live good lives is almost morally live good lives is almost morally reprehensible people who have the most reprehensible people who have the most reprehensible people who have the most basic science literacy like who know the basic science literacy like who know the basic science literacy like who know the most about greenhouse effect they're at most about greenhouse effect they're at most about greenhouse effect they're at both ends of the spectrum both ends of the spectrum both ends of the spectrum of views on climate dismissives and of views on climate dismissives and of views on climate dismissives and alarmed what is likely the worst effect alarmed what is likely the worst effect alarmed what is likely the worst effect of climate change the following is a conversation with the following is a conversation with Joan lomberg and Andrew revkin on the Joan lomberg and Andrew revkin on the Joan lomberg and Andrew revkin on the topic of climate change it is framed as topic of climate change it is framed as topic of climate change it is framed as a debate but with the goal of having a a debate but with the goal of having a a debate but with the goal of having a nuanced conversation talking with each nuanced conversation talking with each nuanced conversation talking with each other not at each other other not at each other other not at each other I hope to continue having the base like I hope to continue having the base like I hope to continue having the base like these including uncontroversial topics I these including uncontroversial topics I these including uncontroversial topics I believe in the power of conversation to believe in the power of conversation to believe in the power of conversation to bring people together bring people together bring people together not to convince one side or the other not to convince one side or the other not to convince one side or the other but to Enlighten both with the insights but to Enlighten both with the insights but to Enlighten both with the insights and wisdom that each hold and wisdom that each hold and wisdom that each hold Bjorn lomborg is the president of Bjorn lomborg is the president of Bjorn lomborg is the president of Copenhagen consensus Think Tank and Copenhagen consensus Think Tank and Copenhagen consensus Think Tank and author of false alarm cool it and author of false alarm cool it and author of false alarm cool it and skeptical environmentalists skeptical environmentalists skeptical environmentalists please check out his work at lombard.com please check out his work at lombard.com please check out his work at lombard.com that includes his books articles and that includes his books articles and that includes his books articles and other writing Andrew revkin is one of other writing Andrew revkin is one of other writing Andrew revkin is one of the most respected journalists in the the most respected journalists in the the most respected journalists in the world on the topic of climate he's been world on the topic of climate he's been world on the topic of climate he's been writing about Global Environmental writing about Global Environmental writing about Global Environmental change and risk for more than 30 years change and risk for more than 30 years change and risk for more than 30 years 20 of it at the New York Times 20 of it at the New York Times 20 of it at the New York Times please check out his work in the link

please check out his work in the link please check out his work in the link tree that includes his books articles tree that includes his books articles tree that includes his books articles and other writing and other writing and other writing this is the Lex Friedman podcast to this is the Lex Friedman podcast to this is the Lex Friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends in the description and now dear friends here's Bjorn lomberg and Andrew rafkin here's Bjorn lomberg and Andrew rafkin here's Bjorn lomberg and Andrew rafkin there's a spectrum of belief on the there's a spectrum of belief on the there's a spectrum of belief on the topic of climate change and the topic of climate change and the topic of climate change and the landscape of that Spectrum has probably landscape of that Spectrum has probably landscape of that Spectrum has probably changed over several decades on one changed over several decades on one changed over several decades on one extreme there's a belief that climate extreme there's a belief that climate extreme there's a belief that climate change is a hoax it's not human caused change is a hoax it's not human caused change is a hoax it's not human caused to pile on top of that there's a belief to pile on top of that there's a belief to pile on top of that there's a belief that institutions scientific political that institutions scientific political that institutions scientific political the media are corrupt and are kind of uh the media are corrupt and are kind of uh the media are corrupt and are kind of uh constructing this fabrication that's one constructing this fabrication that's one constructing this fabrication that's one extreme and then the other extreme extreme and then the other extreme extreme and then the other extreme there's a there's a there's a a level of alarmism a level of alarmism a level of alarmism about the catastrophic impacts of about the catastrophic impacts of about the catastrophic impacts of climate change that lead to the climate change that lead to the climate change that lead to the extinction of human civilization so not extinction of human civilization so not extinction of human civilization so not just economic costs hardship suffering just economic costs hardship suffering just economic costs hardship suffering but literally the destruction of the but literally the destruction of the but literally the destruction of the human species in the short term okay so human species in the short term okay so human species in the short term okay so that's the Spectrum and I would love to that's the Spectrum and I would love to that's the Spectrum and I would love to find the center find the center find the center and my senses and the reason I wanted to and my senses and the reason I wanted to and my senses and the reason I wanted to talk to the two of you aside from talk to the two of you aside from talk to the two of you aside from the humility with which you approach the humility with which you approach the humility with which you approach this topic is I feel like you're close this topic is I feel like you're close this topic is I feel like you're close to the center and are on different sides to the center and are on different sides to the center and are on different sides of that Center if it's possible to of that Center if it's possible to of that Center if it's possible to define the central like there is a define the central like there is a define the central like there is a political Center for Center left and political Center for Center left and political Center for Center left and center right center right center right of course it's very difficult to Define

of course it's very difficult to Define of course it's very difficult to Define but can you help me Define what the but can you help me Define what the but can you help me Define what the extremes are again as they have changed extremes are again as they have changed extremes are again as they have changed over the years what they are today and over the years what they are today and over the years what they are today and where's the center oh boy uh well in a where's the center oh boy uh well in a where's the center oh boy uh well in a way on this issue I think there is no way on this issue I think there is no way on this issue I think there is no Center except in this if you're looking Center except in this if you're looking Center except in this if you're looking on social media or if you're looking on on social media or if you're looking on on social media or if you're looking on TV TV TV there are people who are trying to there are people who are trying to there are people who are trying to fabricate the idea there's a single fabricate the idea there's a single fabricate the idea there's a single question question question and that's the first mistake and that's the first mistake and that's the first mistake we are developing a new relationship we are developing a new relationship we are developing a new relationship with the climate system with the climate system with the climate system and we're rethinking our Energy Systems and we're rethinking our Energy Systems and we're rethinking our Energy Systems and those are very and those are very and those are very disconnected in so many ways that disconnected in so many ways that disconnected in so many ways that connect around climate change but the connect around climate change but the connect around climate change but the first way to me to overcome this idea of first way to me to overcome this idea of first way to me to overcome this idea of there is this polarized Universe around there is this polarized Universe around there is this polarized Universe around this issue is to step back and say well this issue is to step back and say well this issue is to step back and say well what is this actually and when you do what is this actually and when you do what is this actually and when you do you realize it's kind of an you realize it's kind of an you realize it's kind of an uncomfortable collision between old uncomfortable collision between old uncomfortable collision between old energy norms and growing awareness of energy norms and growing awareness of energy norms and growing awareness of how the how the planet works that you how the how the planet works that you how the how the planet works that you know if you keep adding gases that are know if you keep adding gases that are know if you keep adding gases that are invisible it's the bubbles in beer invisible it's the bubbles in beer invisible it's the bubbles in beer if you keep adding that to the if you keep adding that to the if you keep adding that to the atmosphere because it accumulates that atmosphere because it accumulates that atmosphere because it accumulates that will change everything is changing will change everything is changing will change everything is changing everything for thousands of years it's everything for thousands of years it's everything for thousands of years it's already happening what do you mean by already happening what do you mean by already happening what do you mean by bubbles and beer CO2 carbon dioxide the bubbles and beer CO2 carbon dioxide the bubbles and beer CO2 carbon dioxide the main greenhouse gas why beer look main greenhouse gas why beer look main greenhouse gas why beer look because I like beer it's also in because I like beer it's also in because I like beer it's also in Coca-Cola well you were talking about Coca-Cola well you were talking about Coca-Cola well you were talking about Cola before uh and it's so it's Cola before uh and it's so it's Cola before uh and it's so it's innocuous we grew up with this idea as innocuous we grew up with this idea as innocuous we grew up with this idea as CO2 unless you're trapped in a room CO2 unless you're trapped in a room CO2 unless you're trapped in a room suffocating suffocating suffocating yeah is innocuous gas it it's plant food yeah is innocuous gas it it's plant food yeah is innocuous gas it it's plant food it's beer bubbles and the idea we can

it's beer bubbles and the idea we can it's beer bubbles and the idea we can swiftly transition to a world where that swiftly transition to a world where that swiftly transition to a world where that gas is a pollutant gas is a pollutant gas is a pollutant regulated Tamp down from the top regulated Tamp down from the top regulated Tamp down from the top is is Fantastical you know having looked is is Fantastical you know having looked is is Fantastical you know having looked at this for 35 years I brought along one at this for 35 years I brought along one at this for 35 years I brought along one of my tokens of my tokens of my tokens this is my 1988 cover story on global this is my 1988 cover story on global this is my 1988 cover story on global warming warming warming the greenhouse effect yes of 1988 Jim the greenhouse effect yes of 1988 Jim the greenhouse effect yes of 1988 Jim Hansen the famous American climate Hansen the famous American climate Hansen the famous American climate scientist the really he stimulated this scientist the really he stimulated this scientist the really he stimulated this article by doing this uh dramatic article by doing this uh dramatic article by doing this uh dramatic testimony in the senate committee that testimony in the senate committee that testimony in the senate committee that summer in may actually spring lead summer in may actually spring lead summer in may actually spring lead spring it was a hot day and it got spring it was a hot day and it got spring it was a hot day and it got headlines and this was the result but headlines and this was the result but headlines and this was the result but it's complicated look what we were it's complicated look what we were it's complicated look what we were selling on the back cover selling on the back cover selling on the back cover what you see is when you get to back what you see is when you get to back what you see is when you get to back cigarettes different tobacco yeah yeah cigarettes different tobacco yeah yeah cigarettes different tobacco yeah yeah you know looking back at my own career you know looking back at my own career you know looking back at my own career on the climate question is no longer a on the climate question is no longer a on the climate question is no longer a belief fight over is global warming real belief fight over is global warming real belief fight over is global warming real or not you say well what kind of energy or not you say well what kind of energy or not you say well what kind of energy future do you want that's a very future do you want that's a very future do you want that's a very different question than different question than different question than stop global warming and stop global warming and stop global warming and um when you look at climate actually I um when you look at climate actually I um when you look at climate actually I had this Learning Journey on my had this Learning Journey on my had this Learning Journey on my reporting reporting reporting where I started out with this as the where I started out with this as the where I started out with this as the definition of the problem definition of the problem definition of the problem you know the 70s and 80s pollution was you know the 70s and 80s pollution was you know the 70s and 80s pollution was changing things that were making things changing things that were making things changing things that were making things bad so really focusing on the Greenhouse bad so really focusing on the Greenhouse bad so really focusing on the Greenhouse Effect and the pollution but what I Effect and the pollution but what I Effect and the pollution but what I missed the big thing that I missed of missed the big thing that I missed of missed the big thing that I missed of the first 15 years of my reporting from the first 15 years of my reporting from the first 15 years of my reporting from 1988 1988 1988 through about 2007 through about 2007 through about 2007 when I was the period I was at the New

when I was the period I was at the New when I was the period I was at the New York Times York Times York Times in the middle there in the middle there in the middle there um was that we're building vulnerability um was that we're building vulnerability um was that we're building vulnerability to climate hazards at the same time so to climate hazards at the same time so to climate hazards at the same time so climate is changing but we're changing climate is changing but we're changing climate is changing but we're changing too and we where we where we are here in too and we where we where we are here in too and we where we where we are here in Austin Texas is a great example flash Austin Texas is a great example flash Austin Texas is a great example flash flood alley named in the 1920s west of flood alley named in the 1920s west of flood alley named in the 1920s west of here everyone forgot about flash floods here everyone forgot about flash floods here everyone forgot about flash floods built these huge developments you know built these huge developments you know built these huge developments you know along these river basins then one side along these river basins then one side along these river basins then one side start saying global warming global start saying global warming global start saying global warming global warming and the other side is not warming and the other side is not warming and the other side is not recognizing that we've built willfully recognizing that we've built willfully recognizing that we've built willfully uh greedily uh greedily uh greedily uh vulnerability in places of utter uh vulnerability in places of utter uh vulnerability in places of utter hazards same things played out in hazards same things played out in hazards same things played out in Pakistan and in Fort Myers Florida Pakistan and in Fort Myers Florida Pakistan and in Fort Myers Florida if you and you start to understand that if you and you start to understand that if you and you start to understand that we're creating a landscape of risk we're creating a landscape of risk we're creating a landscape of risk as climate is changing then that could as climate is changing then that could as climate is changing then that could it feels oh my God that's more complex it feels oh my God that's more complex it feels oh my God that's more complex right but it also gives you more action right but it also gives you more action right but it also gives you more action points it's like okay well we know how points it's like okay well we know how points it's like okay well we know how to design better we know that today's to design better we know that today's to design better we know that today's coasts won't be tomorrow's coasts coasts won't be tomorrow's coasts coasts won't be tomorrow's coasts work with that and then let's chart an work with that and then let's chart an work with that and then let's chart an energy future at the same time energy future at the same time energy future at the same time so the story became so different it so the story became so different it so the story became so different it didn't become like didn't become like didn't become like you know a story you could package into you know a story you could package into you know a story you could package into a magazine article or the like and it a magazine article or the like and it a magazine article or the like and it just led me to a whole different way of just led me to a whole different way of just led me to a whole different way of even my journalism changed over time even my journalism changed over time even my journalism changed over time so I don't fight the belief disbelief so I don't fight the belief disbelief so I don't fight the belief disbelief fight anymore I think it's actually fight anymore I think it's actually fight anymore I think it's actually kind of a waste I don't it's a good way kind of a waste I don't it's a good way kind of a waste I don't it's a good way to start the discussion because that's to start the discussion because that's to start the discussion because that's where we're at where we're at where we're at but this isn't about to me going forward but this isn't about to me going forward but this isn't about to me going forward from where we're at isn't about

from where we're at isn't about from where we're at isn't about tipping that balance back toward the tipping that balance back toward the tipping that balance back toward the center so much as finding opportunities center so much as finding opportunities center so much as finding opportunities to just do something about this stuff to just do something about this stuff to just do something about this stuff what do you think Bjorn do you agree what do you think Bjorn do you agree what do you think Bjorn do you agree that it's multiple questions in one in that it's multiple questions in one in that it's multiple questions in one in one big question do you think it's one big question do you think it's one big question do you think it's possible to define the center where is possible to define the center where is possible to define the center where is the center I think it's wonderful to the center I think it's wonderful to the center I think it's wonderful to hear Andy sort of unconstruct the whole hear Andy sort of unconstruct the whole hear Andy sort of unconstruct the whole conversation and say we should be conversation and say we should be conversation and say we should be worried about different things and I worried about different things and I worried about different things and I think that's exactly or we should be think that's exactly or we should be think that's exactly or we should be worried about things in a different way worried about things in a different way worried about things in a different way that makes it much more uh useful that makes it much more uh useful that makes it much more uh useful I think that's exactly the right way to I think that's exactly the right way to I think that's exactly the right way to to think about it on the other hand that to think about it on the other hand that to think about it on the other hand that was also where you kind of ended we are was also where you kind of ended we are was also where you kind of ended we are stuck in a place where this very much is stuck in a place where this very much is stuck in a place where this very much is the conversation right now uh and and so the conversation right now uh and and so the conversation right now uh and and so I think in in one sense I think in in one sense I think in in one sense um certainly the people who used to say um certainly the people who used to say um certainly the people who used to say oh this is not happening they're very oh this is not happening they're very oh this is not happening they're very very small and diminishing crowd and very small and diminishing crowd and very small and diminishing crowd and certainly not right certainly not right certainly not right um but on the other hand I I think to an um but on the other hand I I think to an um but on the other hand I I think to an ex ex ex increasing extent we've gotten into a increasing extent we've gotten into a increasing extent we've gotten into a world where a lot of people really think world where a lot of people really think world where a lot of people really think this is the you know the end of the this is the you know the end of the this is the you know the end of the times uh if if you so the OCD did a new times uh if if you so the OCD did a new times uh if if you so the OCD did a new survey of all oecd countries and it's survey of all oecd countries and it's survey of all oecd countries and it's shocking so it shows that 60 of all shocking so it shows that 60 of all shocking so it shows that 60 of all people in the OCD so the rich World people in the OCD so the rich World people in the OCD so the rich World believes that global warming will likely believes that global warming will likely believes that global warming will likely or very likely lead to the extinction of or very likely lead to the extinction of or very likely lead to the extinction of mankind mankind mankind and and and that's that's scary in a and and and that's that's scary in a and and and that's that's scary in a very very clear way because look if this very very clear way because look if this very very clear way because look if this really is true if if global warming is really is true if if global warming is really is true if if global warming is this meter hurtling towards Earth and this meter hurtling towards Earth and this meter hurtling towards Earth and you know we're gonna be destroyed in 12

you know we're gonna be destroyed in 12 you know we're gonna be destroyed in 12 years or whatever the number is uh uh uh years or whatever the number is uh uh uh years or whatever the number is uh uh uh uh today then clearly we should care uh today then clearly we should care uh today then clearly we should care about nothing else we should just be about nothing else we should just be about nothing else we should just be focusing on making sure that that focusing on making sure that that focusing on making sure that that asteroid get you know we should send up asteroid get you know we should send up asteroid get you know we should send up Bruce Willis and get get this done with Bruce Willis and get get this done with Bruce Willis and get get this done with but that's not the way it is this is not but that's not the way it is this is not but that's not the way it is this is not actually what the U.N climate panel actually what the U.N climate panel actually what the U.N climate panel tells us or anything else so I think uh tells us or anything else so I think uh tells us or anything else so I think uh it's not so much about arcing against it's not so much about arcing against it's not so much about arcing against the people who are saying it's a it's a the people who are saying it's a it's a the people who are saying it's a it's a hoax that's not really where I am I hoax that's not really where I am I hoax that's not really where I am I don't think that's where Andy are really don't think that's where Andy are really don't think that's where Andy are really where the conversation is but it is a where the conversation is but it is a where the conversation is but it is a question of sort of pulling people back question of sort of pulling people back question of sort of pulling people back from this end of the world conversation from this end of the world conversation from this end of the world conversation because it really skews our way that we because it really skews our way that we because it really skews our way that we think about problems also you know if think about problems also you know if think about problems also you know if you really think this is the end of time you really think this is the end of time you really think this is the end of time and you know you only have 12 years and you know you only have 12 years and you know you only have 12 years nothing that can only work in 13 years nothing that can only work in 13 years nothing that can only work in 13 years can be considered and the reality of can be considered and the reality of can be considered and the reality of most of what we're talking about in most of what we're talking about in most of what we're talking about in climate and certainly our vulnerability climate and certainly our vulnerability climate and certainly our vulnerability certainly our Energy System is going to certainly our Energy System is going to certainly our Energy System is going to be half to a full century and so when be half to a full century and so when be half to a full century and so when you talk to people in say well but we're you talk to people in say well but we're you talk to people in say well but we're gonna you know we're really gonna go a gonna you know we're really gonna go a gonna you know we're really gonna go a lot more renewable in the next half lot more renewable in the next half lot more renewable in the next half century they look at you and like but century they look at you and like but century they look at you and like but that's what 38 years too late uh and I that's what 38 years too late uh and I that's what 38 years too late uh and I get that but so so I think in in your get that but so so I think in in your get that but so so I think in in your question what I'm trying to do and I question what I'm trying to do and I question what I'm trying to do and I would imagine that's true for you as would imagine that's true for you as would imagine that's true for you as well is to try to pull people away from well is to try to pull people away from well is to try to pull people away from this precipice and this end of the world this precipice and this end of the world this precipice and this end of the world and then open it up and I think Andy did and then open it up and I think Andy did and then open it up and I think Andy did that really well by saying look there's that really well by saying look there's that really well by saying look there's so many different sub conversations and so many different sub conversations and so many different sub conversations and we need to have all of them and we need we need to have all of them and we need we need to have all of them and we need to be respectful of of some of these are

to be respectful of of some of these are to be respectful of of some of these are right in the in the sort of standard right in the in the sort of standard right in the in the sort of standard media kind of way but some of them are media kind of way but some of them are media kind of way but some of them are very very wrong and actually means that very very wrong and actually means that very very wrong and actually means that we end up doing much less good both on we end up doing much less good both on we end up doing much less good both on climate but also on all the other climate but also on all the other climate but also on all the other problems the world faces oh yeah and it problems the world faces oh yeah and it problems the world faces oh yeah and it just empowers people too those who just empowers people too those who just empowers people too those who believe this then just sit back even in believe this then just sit back even in believe this then just sit back even in Adam McKay's movie The don't look up Adam McKay's movie The don't look up Adam McKay's movie The don't look up movie there was that sort of knee-list movie there was that sort of knee-list movie there was that sort of knee-list crowd for those who've seen it who just crowd for those who've seen it who just crowd for those who've seen it who just say you know fuck this or uh and and a say you know fuck this or uh and and a say you know fuck this or uh and and a lot of people have that approach when lot of people have that approach when lot of people have that approach when something's too big no something's too big no something's too big no and and and it just paralyzes you as opposed to it just paralyzes you as opposed to it just paralyzes you as opposed to giving you these action points and the giving you these action points and the giving you these action points and the other thing is I hate I hate it when other thing is I hate I hate it when other thing is I hate I hate it when economists are right about stuff like economists are right about stuff like economists are right about stuff like the I I I I uh the I I I I uh the I I I I uh no no there are these phrases like I no no there are these phrases like I no no there are these phrases like I never knew the words path dependency never knew the words path dependency never knew the words path dependency until probably 10 years ago in my until probably 10 years ago in my until probably 10 years ago in my reporting it basically says you're in a reporting it basically says you're in a reporting it basically says you're in a system system system the things around you how we pass laws the things around you how we pass laws the things around you how we pass laws the Brokenness of the Senate you know the Brokenness of the Senate you know the Brokenness of the Senate you know that those are we don't have a climate that those are we don't have a climate that those are we don't have a climate crisis in America we have a decision crisis in America we have a decision crisis in America we have a decision crisis as it comes to how the government crisis as it comes to how the government crisis as it comes to how the government works or doesn't work so but those big works or doesn't work so but those big works or doesn't work so but those big features of our landscape are features of our landscape are features of our landscape are it's path dependency when you when you it's path dependency when you when you it's path dependency when you when you screw in a light bulb even if it's an screw in a light bulb even if it's an screw in a light bulb even if it's an LED light bulb it's going into a hundred LED light bulb it's going into a hundred LED light bulb it's going into a hundred and thirteen hundred twenty year old and thirteen hundred twenty year old and thirteen hundred twenty year old fixture fixture fixture because and actually that fixture is because and actually that fixture is because and actually that fixture is almost designed if you look at like 19th almost designed if you look at like 19th almost designed if you look at like 19th century gas fixtures they had to screw century gas fixtures they had to screw century gas fixtures they had to screw anything so we're like on this long path anything so we're like on this long path anything so we're like on this long path dependencies when it comes to energy and

dependencies when it comes to energy and dependencies when it comes to energy and stuff like that that you don't just stuff like that that you don't just stuff like that that you don't just click magically transition a car Fleet a click magically transition a car Fleet a click magically transition a car Fleet a car built today will last 40 Years it'll car built today will last 40 Years it'll car built today will last 40 Years it'll end up in Mexico sold on a used car et end up in Mexico sold on a used car et end up in Mexico sold on a used car et cetera et cetera and cetera et cetera and cetera et cetera and so this there is no quick no fix even if so this there is no quick no fix even if so this there is no quick no fix even if if we're true that where things are if we're true that where things are if we're true that where things are coming to an end in 13 years or 12 years coming to an end in 13 years or 12 years coming to an end in 13 years or 12 years or eight years so most people don't or eight years so most people don't or eight years so most people don't believe that climate change is a hoax so believe that climate change is a hoax so believe that climate change is a hoax so they believe that there is an increase they believe that there is an increase they believe that there is an increase there's a global warming of a few there's a global warming of a few there's a global warming of a few degrees in The Next Century and then degrees in The Next Century and then degrees in The Next Century and then maybe debate about what the number of maybe debate about what the number of maybe debate about what the number of the degrees is the degrees is the degrees is and do most people believe that it's and do most people believe that it's and do most people believe that it's human caused at this time in in the in human caused at this time in in the in human caused at this time in in the in this history of discussion or climate this history of discussion or climate this history of discussion or climate change so is that the center still like change so is that the center still like change so is that the center still like is there still the debate on this Yale is there still the debate on this Yale is there still the debate on this Yale University the climate communication University the climate communication University the climate communication group there for like 13 years has done group there for like 13 years has done group there for like 13 years has done this six Americas study where they've this six Americas study where they've this six Americas study where they've charted pretty carefully and ways that I charted pretty carefully and ways that I charted pretty carefully and ways that I really find useful really find useful really find useful what people believe and we could talk what people believe and we could talk what people believe and we could talk about the word belief in the context of about the word belief in the context of about the word belief in the context of science too but and they've identified science too but and they've identified science too but and they've identified kind of six kinds of us there's from kind of six kinds of us there's from kind of six kinds of us there's from dismissive to alarmed and with lots of dismissive to alarmed and with lots of dismissive to alarmed and with lots of bubbles in between I think some of those bubbles in between I think some of those bubbles in between I think some of those bubbles in between are mostly disengaged bubbles in between are mostly disengaged bubbles in between are mostly disengaged people who don't really deal with the people who don't really deal with the people who don't really deal with the issue and they've shown adrift for sure issue and they've shown adrift for sure issue and they've shown adrift for sure there's much more majority now at the there's much more majority now at the there's much more majority now at the alarmed or engaged bubbles then just the alarmed or engaged bubbles then just the alarmed or engaged bubbles then just the dismissive bubble does a durable like dismissive bubble does a durable like dismissive bubble does a durable like with vaccination and all lots of other

with vaccination and all lots of other with vaccination and all lots of other issues there's a durable never anything issues there's a durable never anything issues there's a durable never anything belief group but on on the reality that belief group but on on the reality that belief group but on on the reality that humans are contributing to climate humans are contributing to climate humans are contributing to climate change most Americans when you're asked change most Americans when you're asked change most Americans when you're asked ask them and it also depends on how you ask them and it also depends on how you ask them and it also depends on how you write your survey you know I think I write your survey you know I think I write your survey you know I think I think there's a component globally I think there's a component globally I think there's a component globally I mean when you when you ask around I mean mean when you when you ask around I mean mean when you when you ask around I mean and and this is you know if you hear the and and this is you know if you hear the and and this is you know if you hear the story from the media of 20 years of story from the media of 20 years of story from the media of 20 years of course that's what you'll believe and it course that's what you'll believe and it course that's what you'll believe and it also happens to be true all right that also happens to be true all right that also happens to be true all right that is what the sign I I think you know it's is what the sign I I think you know it's is what the sign I I think you know it's perhaps worth saying and it's a little perhaps worth saying and it's a little perhaps worth saying and it's a little depressing that you always have to say depressing that you always have to say depressing that you always have to say it but I think it's worth saying that I it but I think it's worth saying that I it but I think it's worth saying that I think we both really do accept you know think we both really do accept you know think we both really do accept you know the climate panel uh science and you the climate panel uh science and you the climate panel uh science and you know there's absolutely global warming know there's absolutely global warming know there's absolutely global warming it is an issue uh and it's probably just it is an issue uh and it's probably just it is an issue uh and it's probably just worthwhile to get it out of the way it's worthwhile to get it out of the way it's worthwhile to get it out of the way it's an issue and it's caused by humans it's an issue and it's caused by humans it's an issue and it's caused by humans it's caused by humans yeah okay but caused by humans yeah okay but caused by humans yeah okay but vulnerability the losses vulnerability the losses vulnerability the losses that are driven by climate-related that are driven by climate-related that are driven by climate-related events still predominantly are caused by events still predominantly are caused by events still predominantly are caused by humans but on the ground it's where we humans but on the ground it's where we humans but on the ground it's where we build stuff where we settle Pakistan in 1968 I just looked these data up in 1968 I just looked these data up there were 40 million people in Pakistan there were 40 million people in Pakistan there were 40 million people in Pakistan today there are 225 million and a big today there are 225 million and a big today there are 225 million and a big chunk of them are still rural they live chunk of them are still rural they live chunk of them are still rural they live in the floodplain of the amazing Indus in the floodplain of the amazing Indus in the floodplain of the amazing Indus River which comes down from the River which comes down from the River which comes down from the Himalayas extraordinary 5000 year Himalayas extraordinary 5000 year Himalayas extraordinary 5000 year history of Agriculture there but when history of Agriculture there but when history of Agriculture there but when you put 200 million people In Harm's Way you put 200 million people In Harm's Way you put 200 million people In Harm's Way and this doesn't say anything about the and this doesn't say anything about the and this doesn't say anything about the bigger questions about oh shame on

bigger questions about oh shame on bigger questions about oh shame on Pakistan for having more people it just Pakistan for having more people it just Pakistan for having more people it just says the reality is says the reality is says the reality is the losses that we see in the news the losses that we see in the news the losses that we see in the news are and and the science finds this even are and and the science finds this even are and and the science finds this even though there's a new weather attribution though there's a new weather attribution though there's a new weather attribution group it's a WX risk on Twitter group it's a WX risk on Twitter group it's a WX risk on Twitter this does pretty good work on this does pretty good work on this does pretty good work on how much of what just happened was some how much of what just happened was some how much of what just happened was some tweak in the storm from global warming tweak in the storm from global warming tweak in the storm from global warming from CO2 changing weather from CO2 changing weather from CO2 changing weather but and the media glom on to that as I but and the media glom on to that as I but and the media glom on to that as I did you know in the 80s 90s 2000s did you know in the 80s 90s 2000s did you know in the 80s 90s 2000s but the reports also have a section on but the reports also have a section on but the reports also have a section on by the way the vulnerability that was by the way the vulnerability that was by the way the vulnerability that was built in this region was a was a big built in this region was a was a big built in this region was a was a big driver of of loss so discriminating driver of of loss so discriminating driver of of loss so discriminating between loss between loss between loss change in change in change in what's happening on the ground and what's happening on the ground and what's happening on the ground and change in the climate system change in the climate system change in the climate system is never solely about CO2 in fact is never solely about CO2 in fact is never solely about CO2 in fact Lawrence Bauer Lawrence Bauer Lawrence Bauer b-o-u-w-e-r um b-o-u-w-e-r um b-o-u-w-e-r um has for I first wrote on his work in has for I first wrote on his work in has for I first wrote on his work in 2010 in the New York Times And basically 2010 in the New York Times And basically 2010 in the New York Times And basically in 2010 there was no sign in the data of in 2010 there was no sign in the data of in 2010 there was no sign in the data of climate change driving disasters climate change driving disasters climate change driving disasters climate change is up here disasters are climate change is up here disasters are climate change is up here disasters are on the ground they depend on how many on the ground they depend on how many on the ground they depend on how many people are in the way how much stuff you people are in the way how much stuff you people are in the way how much stuff you built in the way and so far we've done built in the way and so far we've done built in the way and so far we've done so much of that so fast in the 20th so much of that so fast in the 20th so much of that so fast in the 20th century particularly century particularly century particularly that it completely dominates it makes it that it completely dominates it makes it that it completely dominates it makes it hard impossible to discriminate how much hard impossible to discriminate how much hard impossible to discriminate how much of that disaster of that disaster of that disaster was from the change in

was from the change in was from the change in weather from global warming so a weather from global warming so a weather from global warming so a function of function of function of uh greenhouse gases uh greenhouse gases uh greenhouse gases to human suffering is to human suffering is to human suffering is unclear that's and that's very much in unclear that's and that's very much in unclear that's and that's very much in our control theoretically I mean the the our control theoretically I mean the the our control theoretically I mean the the point I think is is exactly right that point I think is is exactly right that point I think is is exactly right that you know if you look at uh the hurricane you know if you look at uh the hurricane you know if you look at uh the hurricane em that went through Florida you have a em that went through Florida you have a em that went through Florida you have a situation where Florida went from what situation where Florida went from what situation where Florida went from what 600 000 houses in 1940 to 17 million 600 000 houses in 1940 to 17 million 600 000 houses in 1940 to 17 million houses yeah sorry 10 million houses so houses yeah sorry 10 million houses so houses yeah sorry 10 million houses so uh so 17 times more over uh what a uh so 17 times more over uh what a uh so 17 times more over uh what a period of 80 years of course you're period of 80 years of course you're period of 80 years of course you're gonna have one yeah yeah you're going to gonna have one yeah yeah you're going to gonna have one yeah yeah you're going to have lots more damage and many of these have lots more damage and many of these have lots more damage and many of these houses now been built on you know places houses now been built on you know places houses now been built on you know places where you probably shouldn't be building where you probably shouldn't be building where you probably shouldn't be building and and so I think uh a lot of and and so I think uh a lot of and and so I think uh a lot of scientists are very focused on saying scientists are very focused on saying scientists are very focused on saying can we measure whether global warming can we measure whether global warming can we measure whether global warming had an impact which is an interesting had an impact which is an interesting had an impact which is an interesting science question I think it's it's very science question I think it's it's very science question I think it's it's very implausible that eventually we won't be implausible that eventually we won't be implausible that eventually we won't be able to say it has an impact but the able to say it has an impact but the able to say it has an impact but the real question it seems to me is if we real question it seems to me is if we real question it seems to me is if we actually want to make sure that people actually want to make sure that people actually want to make sure that people are less harmed in the future are less harmed in the future are less harmed in the future what are the levers that we can control what are the levers that we can control what are the levers that we can control and it turns out that the CO2 lever uh and it turns out that the CO2 lever uh and it turns out that the CO2 lever uh doing something about climate is an doing something about climate is an doing something about climate is an incredibly difficult and slightly incredibly difficult and slightly incredibly difficult and slightly inefficient way of trying to help these inefficient way of trying to help these inefficient way of trying to help these people in the future whereas of course people in the future whereas of course people in the future whereas of course zoning making sure that you have better zoning making sure that you have better zoning making sure that you have better housing housing housing rules what is it uh regulations uh that

rules what is it uh regulations uh that rules what is it uh regulations uh that that you maybe you know don't have that you maybe you know don't have that you maybe you know don't have people building in the flash flood people building in the flash flood people building in the flash flood lately what was it called flash flood lately what was it called flash flood lately what was it called flash flood alley Alleyway yeah it's it's just alley Alleyway yeah it's it's just alley Alleyway yeah it's it's just simple stuff and and because we're so simple stuff and and because we're so simple stuff and and because we're so focused on this one issue we sort of it focused on this one issue we sort of it focused on this one issue we sort of it it almost feels uh sacrilegious to to it almost feels uh sacrilegious to to it almost feels uh sacrilegious to to talk about these other things that are talk about these other things that are talk about these other things that are much more in our power and that we can much more in our power and that we can much more in our power and that we can do something about much quicker and that do something about much quicker and that do something about much quicker and that would help a lot more people so I I would help a lot more people so I I would help a lot more people so I I think this is uh this is going to be a think this is uh this is going to be a think this is uh this is going to be a large part of the whole conversation you large part of the whole conversation you large part of the whole conversation you know yes climate is a problem but it's know yes climate is a problem but it's know yes climate is a problem but it's not the only problem and there are many not the only problem and there are many not the only problem and there are many other things where we can actually have other things where we can actually have other things where we can actually have a much much bigger impact at much lower a much much bigger impact at much lower a much much bigger impact at much lower cost maybe we should also remember those cost maybe we should also remember those cost maybe we should also remember those can you can you can you Steel Man the case Steel Man the case Steel Man the case of Greta of Greta of Greta who's a representative of alarmism who's a representative of alarmism who's a representative of alarmism that we need that kind of level of that we need that kind of level of that we need that kind of level of alarmism for people to pay attention and alarmism for people to pay attention and alarmism for people to pay attention and to think about climate change so you to think about climate change so you to think about climate change so you said the singular View said the singular View said the singular View uh uh uh is is not the correct way to look at is is not the correct way to look at is is not the correct way to look at climate change just the emissions but climate change just the emissions but climate change just the emissions but for us to have a discussion shouldn't for us to have a discussion shouldn't for us to have a discussion shouldn't there be somebody who's there be somebody who's there be somebody who's really raising the concern can you still really raising the concern can you still really raising the concern can you still man the case of for alarmism essentially man the case of for alarmism essentially man the case of for alarmism essentially or is there a better term than alarmism or is there a better term than alarmism or is there a better term than alarmism uh uh uh commit communication of like holy shit commit communication of like holy shit commit communication of like holy shit we should be thinking about this so I I we should be thinking about this so I I we should be thinking about this so I I think you know I I totally understand

think you know I I totally understand think you know I I totally understand why credit tunberg is doing what she's why credit tunberg is doing what she's why credit tunberg is doing what she's doing I I have great respect for her doing I I have great respect for her doing I I have great respect for her because if you know I I look at a lot of because if you know I I look at a lot of because if you know I I look at a lot of kids growing up and they're basically kids growing up and they're basically kids growing up and they're basically being told you're not going to reach being told you're not going to reach being told you're not going to reach adulthood or at least not you're not adulthood or at least not you're not adulthood or at least not you're not going to get very far into adulthood uh going to get very far into adulthood uh going to get very far into adulthood uh and that of course you know this is the and that of course you know this is the and that of course you know this is the media are hurtling towards Earth and media are hurtling towards Earth and media are hurtling towards Earth and then this is the only thing we should be then this is the only thing we should be then this is the only thing we should be focusing on I understand why she's focusing on I understand why she's focusing on I understand why she's making that argument I I think it's at making that argument I I think it's at making that argument I I think it's at the end of the day it's incorrect and the end of the day it's incorrect and the end of the day it's incorrect and I'm sure we'll get around to talking I'm sure we'll get around to talking I'm sure we'll get around to talking about that and one of the things is of about that and one of the things is of about that and one of the things is of course that her whole generation uh you course that her whole generation uh you course that her whole generation uh you know I can understand why they're saying know I can understand why they're saying know I can understand why they're saying you know if if we're going to be dead in you know if if we're going to be dead in you know if if we're going to be dead in 12 years why would I want to study that 12 years why would I want to study that 12 years why would I want to study that you know why would I really care about you know why would I really care about you know why would I really care about anything so so I totally want to sort of anything so so I totally want to sort of anything so so I totally want to sort of pull Greta and many others out of this pull Greta and many others out of this pull Greta and many others out of this uh end of the world fear but I totally uh end of the world fear but I totally uh end of the world fear but I totally get why she's doing it I think she's get why she's doing it I think she's get why she's doing it I think she's done on a service in the sense that done on a service in the sense that done on a service in the sense that she's gotten more people to talk about she's gotten more people to talk about she's gotten more people to talk about climate and that's good because we need climate and that's good because we need climate and that's good because we need to have this discussion I think it's to have this discussion I think it's to have this discussion I think it's unfortunate and this is just what unfortunate and this is just what unfortunate and this is just what happens in almost all policy discussions happens in almost all policy discussions happens in almost all policy discussions that they end up being you know sort of that they end up being you know sort of that they end up being you know sort of discussions from from the extreme groups discussions from from the extreme groups discussions from from the extreme groups because it's just more fun on media uh because it's just more fun on media uh because it's just more fun on media uh to to have sort of the the total deniers to to have sort of the the total deniers to to have sort of the the total deniers and the and the the people who say we're and the and the the people who say we're and the and the the people who say we're going to die tomorrow and it sort of going to die tomorrow and it sort of going to die tomorrow and it sort of becomes that discussion that's more you becomes that discussion that's more you becomes that discussion that's more you know it's more sort of a mutt wrestling know it's more sort of a mutt wrestling know it's more sort of a mutt wrestling fight so what do you think the modern fight so what do you think the modern fight so what do you think the modern wrestling fight is not useful or is wrestling fight is not useful or is wrestling fight is not useful or is useful for communication for Effective useful for communication for Effective useful for communication for Effective science communication on one of the science communication on one of the science communication on one of the platforms that you're a fan of which is platforms that you're a fan of which is platforms that you're a fan of which is Twitter

Twitter Twitter yeah I wrote a piece recently on my yeah I wrote a piece recently on my yeah I wrote a piece recently on my sustain what column saying if you go in sustain what column saying if you go in sustain what column saying if you go in there there there for the entertainment value of seeing for the entertainment value of seeing for the entertainment value of seeing those knock down fights I guess that's those knock down fights I guess that's those knock down fights I guess that's useful if that's what you're looking for useful if that's what you're looking for useful if that's what you're looking for the thing I found Twitter invaluable for the thing I found Twitter invaluable for the thing I found Twitter invaluable for but it's a practice but it's a practice but it's a practice it's just like the workouts you do or it's just like the workouts you do or it's just like the workouts you do or you know you know you know it's how do I put this tool to use today it's how do I put this tool to use today it's how do I put this tool to use today thinking about energy sufficient energy thinking about energy sufficient energy thinking about energy sufficient energy action in poor communities how do I put action in poor communities how do I put action in poor communities how do I put this tool today learning about what this tool today learning about what this tool today learning about what really happened with Ian the hurricane really happened with Ian the hurricane really happened with Ian the hurricane you know who was most at risk and how you know who was most at risk and how you know who was most at risk and how would you build back build forward would you build back build forward would you build back build forward better I hit build back better I hit build back better I hit build back um or you could go there and just watch um or you could go there and just watch um or you could go there and just watch it as an entertainment value that's not it as an entertainment value that's not it as an entertainment value that's not going to get the world anywhere you going to get the world anywhere you going to get the world anywhere you don't think don't think don't think entertainment I I wouldn't call it entertainment I I wouldn't call it entertainment I I wouldn't call it entertainment but giving voice to the entertainment but giving voice to the entertainment but giving voice to the extremes isn't a productive Way Forward extremes isn't a productive Way Forward extremes isn't a productive Way Forward it seems to it seems to it seems to you know to push back against the main you know to push back against the main you know to push back against the main narrative it seems to work pretty well narrative it seems to work pretty well narrative it seems to work pretty well in the American system we think in the American system we think in the American system we think politics is totally broken but maybe politics is totally broken but maybe politics is totally broken but maybe that works that like oscillation back that works that like oscillation back that works that like oscillation back and forth you need a grata and you need and forth you need a grata and you need and forth you need a grata and you need somebody that pushes back against the somebody that pushes back against the somebody that pushes back against the ground to get everybody's ground to get everybody's ground to get everybody's just to uh to get everybody's attention just to uh to get everybody's attention just to uh to get everybody's attention the the fun of battle right over time the the fun of battle right over time the the fun of battle right over time creates progress well and this gets to creates progress well and this gets to creates progress well and this gets to you know people who focus on you know people who focus on you know people who focus on communication science I'm not a

communication science I'm not a communication science I'm not a scientist I write about this stuff scientist I write about this stuff scientist I write about this stuff if you're going to try to prod someone if you're going to try to prod someone if you're going to try to prod someone with a warning like yeah this is three with a warning like yeah this is three with a warning like yeah this is three years apart nuclear winner nuclear years apart nuclear winner nuclear years apart nuclear winner nuclear winner global warming well yeah we'll winner global warming well yeah we'll winner global warming well yeah we'll talk about it but look at look at that talk about it but look at look at that talk about it but look at look at that you know this is three years apart in you know this is three years apart in you know this is three years apart in the covers of magazine yeah and uh but the covers of magazine yeah and uh but the covers of magazine yeah and uh but then you have to say to what end if then you have to say to what end if then you have to say to what end if you're not directing people to a basket you're not directing people to a basket you're not directing people to a basket of things to do and if you're if you of things to do and if you're if you of things to do and if you're if you want political change then it would be want political change then it would be want political change then it would be to you know support a politician if you to you know support a politician if you to you know support a politician if you want energy access it would be to look want energy access it would be to look want energy access it would be to look at this 370 billion dollars the American at this 370 billion dollars the American at this 370 billion dollars the American government just put into play on climate government just put into play on climate government just put into play on climate and say well how can my community and say well how can my community and say well how can my community benefit from that and and I've been told benefit from that and and I've been told benefit from that and and I've been told over and over again by people in over and over again by people in over and over again by people in government government government jigar Shah who heads this giant Loan jigar Shah who heads this giant Loan jigar Shah who heads this giant Loan program the energy Department he says program the energy Department he says program the energy Department he says what I need now is like 19 500 people what I need now is like 19 500 people what I need now is like 19 500 people who are worried about climate change who are worried about climate change who are worried about climate change maybe because Greta got them worried maybe because Greta got them worried maybe because Greta got them worried but here's the thing you could do you but here's the thing you could do you but here's the thing you could do you can connect your local government right can connect your local government right can connect your local government right now with these multi-million dollar now with these multi-million dollar now with these multi-million dollar loans so you could have electric buses loans so you could have electric buses loans so you could have electric buses instead of diesel buses instead of diesel buses instead of diesel buses and that's an action pathway and that's an action pathway and that's an action pathway so without so you know alarm for the so without so you know alarm for the so without so you know alarm for the sake of getting attention or clicks sake of getting attention or clicks sake of getting attention or clicks to me is not any more valuable than to me is not any more valuable than to me is not any more valuable than watching a an action movie and and again watching a an action movie and and again watching a an action movie and and again I think also it very easily ends up sort I think also it very easily ends up sort I think also it very easily ends up sort of skewing our conversation about what of skewing our conversation about what of skewing our conversation about what are the actual Solutions uh you know are the actual Solutions uh you know are the actual Solutions uh you know because yes it's great to uh to get rid because yes it's great to uh to get rid because yes it's great to uh to get rid of the diesel bus but probably not for

of the diesel bus but probably not for of the diesel bus but probably not for the reason people think it's because the reason people think it's because the reason people think it's because diesel buses are really polluting in the diesel buses are really polluting in the diesel buses are really polluting in the you know in the air pollution sense you know in the air pollution sense you know in the air pollution sense right that is why you should get rid of right that is why you should get rid of right that is why you should get rid of them uh and again if you really want it them uh and again if you really want it them uh and again if you really want it to help people for instance with to help people for instance with to help people for instance with hurricanes you should have better you hurricanes you should have better you hurricanes you should have better you know uh rules and Zoning in in Florida know uh rules and Zoning in in Florida know uh rules and Zoning in in Florida uh which is a very different outcome so uh which is a very different outcome so uh which is a very different outcome so so the the mud wrestling fight also gets so the the mud wrestling fight also gets so the the mud wrestling fight also gets our attention diverted towards solutions our attention diverted towards solutions our attention diverted towards solutions that seem uh easy fun you know sort of that seem uh easy fun you know sort of that seem uh easy fun you know sort of the electric car is a great example of the electric car is a great example of the electric car is a great example of this the electric cars somehow become this the electric cars somehow become this the electric cars somehow become almost the sign that I care and I'm almost the sign that I care and I'm almost the sign that I care and I'm really going to do something about uh really going to do something about uh really going to do something about uh climate of course electric cars are climate of course electric cars are climate of course electric cars are great and they're probably part of the great and they're probably part of the great and they're probably part of the solution and they will actually cut solution and they will actually cut solution and they will actually cut carbon emissions somewhat but they are carbon emissions somewhat but they are carbon emissions somewhat but they are incredibly ineffective way of cutting incredibly ineffective way of cutting incredibly ineffective way of cutting carbon emissions right now uh they're carbon emissions right now uh they're carbon emissions right now uh they're fairly expensive you have to subsidize fairly expensive you have to subsidize fairly expensive you have to subsidize them a lot and they still emit quite a them a lot and they still emit quite a them a lot and they still emit quite a bit of CO2 both because the batteries bit of CO2 both because the batteries bit of CO2 both because the batteries get produced and because they you know get produced and because they you know get produced and because they you know usually run off of Power that's not usually run off of Power that's not usually run off of Power that's not strong strong strong okay let's go there let's go electric okay let's go there let's go electric okay let's go there let's go electric cars okay educate us on uh the pros and cars okay educate us on uh the pros and cars okay educate us on uh the pros and cons of electric cars in this complex cons of electric cars in this complex cons of electric cars in this complex picture of of climate change what do you picture of of climate change what do you picture of of climate change what do you think of the efforts of Tesla in Elon think of the efforts of Tesla in Elon think of the efforts of Tesla in Elon Musk on pushing forward Musk on pushing forward Musk on pushing forward um the electric car Revolution so look um the electric car Revolution so look um the electric car Revolution so look electric cars are great I I don't own a electric cars are great I I don't own a electric cars are great I I don't own a I don't own a car uh but you know I've I don't own a car uh but you know I've I don't own a car uh but you know I've been driving there you go socially been driving there you go socially been driving there you go socially signaling yeah but yeah I've uh we're in

signaling yeah but yeah I've uh we're in signaling yeah but yeah I've uh we're in Texas okay flew in here so it's not like Texas okay flew in here so it's not like Texas okay flew in here so it's not like I'm I'm in any way uh virtuous guy on on I'm I'm in any way uh virtuous guy on on I'm I'm in any way uh virtuous guy on on that path but but you know look uh that path but but you know look uh that path but but you know look uh they're great cars and eventually they're great cars and eventually they're great cars and eventually electric cars will take over a electric cars will take over a electric cars will take over a significant part of our uh driving and significant part of our uh driving and significant part of our uh driving and that's good because they're more that's good because they're more that's good because they're more effective they're more effective they're effective they're more effective they're effective they're more effective they're probably also going to be cheaper uh probably also going to be cheaper uh probably also going to be cheaper uh there's a lot of good opportunities with there's a lot of good opportunities with there's a lot of good opportunities with them but it's because they've become them but it's because they've become them but it's because they've become reified as this thing that you do to fix reified as this thing that you do to fix reified as this thing that you do to fix climate and right now they're not really climate and right now they're not really climate and right now they're not really all that great for climate they uh you all that great for climate they uh you all that great for climate they uh you need a lot of uh uh extra material into need a lot of uh uh extra material into need a lot of uh uh extra material into the batteries which is very polluting the batteries which is very polluting the batteries which is very polluting and it's also uh it emits a lot of CO2 a and it's also uh it emits a lot of CO2 a and it's also uh it emits a lot of CO2 a lot of electric cars are bought as lot of electric cars are bought as lot of electric cars are bought as second cars in the US so we used to second cars in the US so we used to second cars in the US so we used to think that they were driven almost as think that they were driven almost as think that they were driven almost as much as as a regular car it turns out much as as a regular car it turns out much as as a regular car it turns out that they're more likely driven less that they're more likely driven less that they're more likely driven less than half as much as a brachial cars so than half as much as a brachial cars so than half as much as a brachial cars so you know 89 of all Americans who have an you know 89 of all Americans who have an you know 89 of all Americans who have an electric car also have a real car that electric car also have a real car that electric car also have a real car that they use for the long trips and then they use for the long trips and then they use for the long trips and then they use the electric car for sure 89 89 they use the electric car for sure 89 89 they use the electric car for sure 89 89 yeah so so the the point here is that yeah so so the the point here is that yeah so so the the point here is that that it has it's one of these things that it has it's one of these things that it has it's one of these things that become more sort of a virtue that become more sort of a virtue that become more sort of a virtue signaling thing and again look once signaling thing and again look once signaling thing and again look once electric cars are sufficiently cheap electric cars are sufficiently cheap electric cars are sufficiently cheap that people will want to buy them that's that people will want to buy them that's that people will want to buy them that's great and and they will you know do some great and and they will you know do some great and and they will you know do some good for the environment but in reality good for the environment but in reality good for the environment but in reality what we should be focusing on is instead what we should be focusing on is instead what we should be focusing on is instead of getting people electric cars in rich of getting people electric cars in rich of getting people electric cars in rich countries where because we're

countries where because we're countries where because we're subsidizing typically uh in in many subsidizing typically uh in in many subsidizing typically uh in in many countries it's uh you actually get uh uh countries it's uh you actually get uh uh countries it's uh you actually get uh uh a sort of sliding scale you get more a sort of sliding scale you get more a sort of sliding scale you get more subsidy the more expensive it is we've subsidy the more expensive it is we've subsidy the more expensive it is we've sort of subsidized this to very rich sort of subsidized this to very rich sort of subsidized this to very rich people to buy very large uh Teslas uh to people to buy very large uh Teslas uh to people to buy very large uh Teslas uh to drive around in uh whereas what we drive around in uh whereas what we drive around in uh whereas what we should be focusing on is perhaps getting should be focusing on is perhaps getting should be focusing on is perhaps getting uh electric motorcycles and third world uh electric motorcycles and third world uh electric motorcycles and third world developing cities where they would do a developing cities where they would do a developing cities where they would do a lot more good you know they can actually lot more good you know they can actually lot more good you know they can actually go as far as you need there's no you go as far as you need there's no you go as far as you need there's no you know worry about running out of them uh know worry about running out of them uh know worry about running out of them uh and they would obviously they're much and they would obviously they're much and they would obviously they're much much more polluting uh just air much more polluting uh just air much more polluting uh just air pollution wise and they're much cheaper pollution wise and they're much cheaper pollution wise and they're much cheaper and they use very little battery so it's and they use very little battery so it's and they use very little battery so it's a it's about getting our senses right a it's about getting our senses right a it's about getting our senses right but that but the electric car is not is but that but the electric car is not is but that but the electric car is not is not the it's not a conversation about is not the it's not a conversation about is not the it's not a conversation about is it technically a really good or is it a it technically a really good or is it a it technically a really good or is it a somewhat good uh Insight it's more like somewhat good uh Insight it's more like somewhat good uh Insight it's more like it's a virtual signal so just you know it's a virtual signal so just you know it's a virtual signal so just you know I'm an I work with economists I'm I'm an I work with economists I'm I'm an I work with economists I'm actually not an economist but I like to actually not an economist but I like to actually not an economist but I like to say I claim I kind of am uh but but you say I claim I kind of am uh but but you say I claim I kind of am uh but but you know the the fundamental point is we know the the fundamental point is we know the the fundamental point is we would say well how much do you how much would say well how much do you how much would say well how much do you how much does it cost to cut a ton of CO2 and the does it cost to cut a ton of CO2 and the does it cost to cut a ton of CO2 and the answer is for most electric cars we're answer is for most electric cars we're answer is for most electric cars we're paying in the order of a thousand two paying in the order of a thousand two paying in the order of a thousand two thousand you know Norway they they pay thousand you know Norway they they pay thousand you know Norway they they pay up to what uh five thousand dollars that up to what uh five thousand dollars that up to what uh five thousand dollars that they're about you know huge amount for they're about you know huge amount for they're about you know huge amount for one ton of CO2 uh you can right now cut one ton of CO2 uh you can right now cut one ton of CO2 uh you can right now cut a ton of CO2 for about what is it 14 on a ton of CO2 for about what is it 14 on a ton of CO2 for about what is it 14 on the Reggie or something uh you know you the Reggie or something uh you know you the Reggie or something uh you know you can read this that's the regional can read this that's the regional can read this that's the regional Greenhouse yes initiative so you can Greenhouse yes initiative so you can Greenhouse yes initiative so you can basically cut it really really cheaply basically cut it really really cheaply basically cut it really really cheaply why would we not want to cut dozens and

why would we not want to cut dozens and why would we not want to cut dozens and dozens of tons of CO2 for the same price dozens of tons of CO2 for the same price dozens of tons of CO2 for the same price instead of just cutting one ton and the instead of just cutting one ton and the instead of just cutting one ton and the simple answer is we only do that because simple answer is we only do that because simple answer is we only do that because we're so focused on the election from we're so focused on the election from we're so focused on the election from interrupt typical European come here in interrupt typical European come here in interrupt typical European come here in Texas tell me I can't have my Ford F1 Texas tell me I can't have my Ford F1 Texas tell me I can't have my Ford F1 150 but I'll now you can have your F-150 150 but I'll now you can have your F-150 150 but I'll now you can have your F-150 Lightning yes that's true uh I'm I'm Lightning yes that's true uh I'm I'm Lightning yes that's true uh I'm I'm just joking but uh what do you think just joking but uh what do you think just joking but uh what do you think about electric cars if you just link on about electric cars if you just link on about electric cars if you just link on that moment and uh yeah this particular that moment and uh yeah this particular that moment and uh yeah this particular element of helping reduce uh element of helping reduce uh element of helping reduce uh emissions well you talked about the emissions well you talked about the emissions well you talked about the middle in the beginning and you know I middle in the beginning and you know I middle in the beginning and you know I loved moving to the hybrid the Prius was loved moving to the hybrid the Prius was loved moving to the hybrid the Prius was fantastic and did everything our other fantastic and did everything our other fantastic and did everything our other sedan did but you know it was 60 miles sedan did but you know it was 60 miles sedan did but you know it was 60 miles per gallon performance and you don't per gallon performance and you don't per gallon performance and you don't have range anxiety because it has a have range anxiety because it has a have range anxiety because it has a regular engine too regular engine too regular engine too we still have a Prius we also inherited we still have a Prius we also inherited we still have a Prius we also inherited my dad dear dad's year 2000 Toyota my dad dear dad's year 2000 Toyota my dad dear dad's year 2000 Toyota Sienna which is an old 100 000 mile uh Sienna which is an old 100 000 mile uh Sienna which is an old 100 000 mile uh Minivan and we use it all the time to do Minivan and we use it all the time to do Minivan and we use it all the time to do the stuff we can't do in the in the the stuff we can't do in the in the the stuff we can't do in the in the Prius like what taking stuff to the dump Prius like what taking stuff to the dump Prius like what taking stuff to the dump all I mean in terms of the size of the all I mean in terms of the size of the all I mean in terms of the size of the vehicle yeah we'll get yeah a size and vehicle yeah we'll get yeah a size and vehicle yeah we'll get yeah a size and just you know convenience factor for a just you know convenience factor for a just you know convenience factor for a bigger vehicle bigger vehicle bigger vehicle um I would love a fully electrified um I would love a fully electrified um I would love a fully electrified Transportation world uh it's kind of Transportation world uh it's kind of Transportation world uh it's kind of exciting I think what Elon did with exciting I think what Elon did with exciting I think what Elon did with Tesla I remember way way back in the day Tesla I remember way way back in the day Tesla I remember way way back in the day when the first models were coming out when the first models were coming out when the first models were coming out they were very slick Ferrari Style they were very slick Ferrari Style they were very slick Ferrari Style cars and I thought this is cool and you

cars and I thought this is cool and you cars and I thought this is cool and you know there's a history of privileged know there's a history of privileged know there's a history of privileged markets testing new technologies and I'm markets testing new technologies and I'm markets testing new technologies and I'm all for that um I think it's done a huge all for that um I think it's done a huge all for that um I think it's done a huge service prodding so much more r d and service prodding so much more r d and service prodding so much more r d and you know once GM and Ford started to you know once GM and Ford started to you know once GM and Ford started to realize oh my God realize oh my God realize oh my God this is a real phenomenon you know this is a real phenomenon you know this is a real phenomenon you know getting them in the game there was that getting them in the game there was that getting them in the game there was that documentary who killed the electric car documentary who killed the electric car documentary who killed the electric car which seemed to imply that uh you know which seemed to imply that uh you know which seemed to imply that uh you know there's there were fights to keep this there's there were fights to keep this there's there were fights to keep this Tamp down and it's it's fundamentally Tamp down and it's it's fundamentally Tamp down and it's it's fundamentally cleaner funnily mentally better if cleaner funnily mentally better if cleaner funnily mentally better if but then you have to manage these bigger but then you have to manage these bigger but then you have to manage these bigger questions if we're going to do a build questions if we're going to do a build questions if we're going to do a build out here how do you make it fair out here how do you make it fair out here how do you make it fair as you were saying who actually uses as you were saying who actually uses as you were saying who actually uses transfer cars and Jigger Shaw that guy transfer cars and Jigger Shaw that guy transfer cars and Jigger Shaw that guy at the energy Department I mentioned who at the energy Department I mentioned who at the energy Department I mentioned who has all this money to give out has all this money to give out has all this money to give out he he wants to give loans to um he he wants to give loans to um he he wants to give loans to um if you've had an Uber Fleet if you've had an Uber Fleet if you've had an Uber Fleet those Uber drivers they're the ones who those Uber drivers they're the ones who those Uber drivers they're the ones who need need need electric cars as his work and and there electric cars as his work and and there electric cars as his work and and there was a recent story in Grist also was a recent story in Grist also was a recent story in Grist also said that most of the sales of Teslas said that most of the sales of Teslas said that most of the sales of Teslas are the high end of the market they're are the high end of the market they're are the high end of the market they're 60 to 80 000 vehicles 60 to 80 000 vehicles 60 to 80 000 vehicles each like the how the Hummer the each like the how the Hummer the each like the how the Hummer the electric Hummer I can't there was a data electric Hummer I can't there was a data electric Hummer I can't there was a data point on that point on that point on that astonishing data point the battery in astonishing data point the battery in astonishing data point the battery in that hummer weighs more than that hummer weighs more than that hummer weighs more than I'd have to look it up it weighs more I'd have to look it up it weighs more I'd have to look it up it weighs more than your price yeah I think it might than your price yeah I think it might than your price yeah I think it might have been the Prius and and think of the have been the Prius and and think of the have been the Prius and and think of the material costs there think of where that material costs there think of where that material costs there think of where that battery the Cobalt and the lithium where

battery the Cobalt and the lithium where battery the Cobalt and the lithium where does this stuff come from does this stuff come from does this stuff come from to build this stuff out to build this stuff out to build this stuff out I'm all for it but we have to be honest I'm all for it but we have to be honest I'm all for it but we have to be honest and clear about that's a new resource and clear about that's a new resource and clear about that's a new resource rush like the oil rush back in the early rush like the oil rush back in the early rush like the oil rush back in the early 20th century and and those impacts have 20th century and and those impacts have 20th century and and those impacts have to be figured out too and if they're all to be figured out too and if they're all to be figured out too and if they're all big Hummers uh for rich people big Hummers uh for rich people big Hummers uh for rich people there's so many contrary arguments to there's so many contrary arguments to there's so many contrary arguments to that that I think we have to figure out that that I think we have to figure out that that I think we have to figure out a way we I don't like the word we I use a way we I don't like the word we I use a way we I don't like the word we I use it too much we all do but uh we all do it too much we all do but uh we all do it too much we all do but uh we all do we usually refer when you say we we we usually refer when you say we we we usually refer when you say we we humans we Society we the government yeah humans we Society we the government yeah humans we Society we the government yeah there has to be some thought and there has to be some thought and there has to be some thought and attention put to where you put these attention put to where you put these attention put to where you put these incentives so that you get the best use incentives so that you get the best use incentives so that you get the best use of this technology for uh for the carbon of this technology for uh for the carbon of this technology for uh for the carbon benefit for the conventional city benefit for the conventional city benefit for the conventional city pollution benefit pollution benefit pollution benefit for the transportation benefit can I for the transportation benefit can I for the transportation benefit can I step back and ask a sort of the big step back and ask a sort of the big step back and ask a sort of the big question we'll mentioned economics question we'll mentioned economics question we'll mentioned economics journalism journalism journalism uh uh uh how does an economist and a climate how does an economist and a climate how does an economist and a climate scientist and a journalist uh that scientist and a journalist uh that scientist and a journalist uh that writes about climate see the world writes about climate see the world writes about climate see the world differently what are the strengths and differently what are the strengths and differently what are the strengths and potential blind spots of each discipline potential blind spots of each discipline potential blind spots of each discipline I mean that's just sort of just just so I mean that's just sort of just just so I mean that's just sort of just just so people may may be aware I think you'll people may may be aware I think you'll people may may be aware I think you'll be able to fall into the economics Camp be able to fall into the economics Camp be able to fall into the economics Camp a bit there's climate scientists right a bit there's climate scientists right a bit there's climate scientists right and there's climate scientists adjacent and there's climate scientists adjacent and there's climate scientists adjacent people like who hang some of my best people like who hang some of my best people like who hang some of my best friends are climate scientists kind of friends are climate scientists kind of friends are climate scientists kind of which is I think where you fall in which is I think where you fall in which is I think where you fall in because you're a journals you've been because you're a journals you've been because you're a journals you've been writing it so you're not completely writing it so you're not completely writing it so you're not completely in the trenches of doing the work you're

in the trenches of doing the work you're in the trenches of doing the work you're just up into the trenches every once in just up into the trenches every once in just up into the trenches every once in a while so can you speak to that maybe a while so can you speak to that maybe a while so can you speak to that maybe Bjorn like what's what does the world Bjorn like what's what does the world Bjorn like what's what does the world look like to an economist look like to an economist look like to an economist let's try to empathize with these beings let's try to empathize with these beings let's try to empathize with these beings that uh you know unfortunately has that uh you know unfortunately has that uh you know unfortunately has fallen into the fallen into the fallen into the disreputable uh economics yeah so so uh disreputable uh economics yeah so so uh disreputable uh economics yeah so so uh I think I think the the main point that I think I think the the main point that I think I think the the main point that that I've been trying for a long time that I've been trying for a long time that I've been trying for a long time and I think that's also a little bit and I think that's also a little bit and I think that's also a little bit what Andy has been talking about for a what Andy has been talking about for a what Andy has been talking about for a very long time the whole conversation very long time the whole conversation very long time the whole conversation was about what does the science tell us was about what does the science tell us was about what does the science tell us is is it global warming real and and to is is it global warming real and and to is is it global warming real and and to me it's much more what can we actually me it's much more what can we actually me it's much more what can we actually do what are the policies that we can do what are the policies that we can do what are the policies that we can take and how effective are they going to take and how effective are they going to take and how effective are they going to be so the conversation we just had about be so the conversation we just had about be so the conversation we just had about electric cars is a good example of how electric cars is a good example of how electric cars is a good example of how an economist think about look you gotta an economist think about look you gotta an economist think about look you gotta you this is not a question about whether you this is not a question about whether you this is not a question about whether you feel morally vert true so whether you feel morally vert true so whether you feel morally vert true so whether you know you can sort of display how you know you can sort of display how you know you can sort of display how much you care about the environment this much you care about the environment this much you care about the environment this is about how much you actually ended up is about how much you actually ended up is about how much you actually ended up affecting the world and the honest affecting the world and the honest affecting the world and the honest answers that you know electric cars answers that you know electric cars answers that you know electric cars right now in the next decade or so will right now in the next decade or so will right now in the next decade or so will have a fairly small impact and have a fairly small impact and have a fairly small impact and unfortunately right now at a very high unfortunately right now at a very high unfortunately right now at a very high cost because we're basically subsidizing cost because we're basically subsidizing cost because we're basically subsidizing these things at five or ten thousand these things at five or ten thousand these things at five or ten thousand Dollars around the world uh per per car Dollars around the world uh per per car Dollars around the world uh per per car that that's just not it's not really that that's just not it's not really that that's just not it's not really sustainable but it's certainly not a sustainable but it's certainly not a sustainable but it's certainly not a very great way to cut carbon emissions very great way to cut carbon emissions very great way to cut carbon emissions so I would be the kind of guy and so I would be the kind of guy and so I would be the kind of guy and Economist would be the types of people Economist would be the types of people Economist would be the types of people who would say is there a smarter way who would say is there a smarter way who would say is there a smarter way where you for less money can for cut

where you for less money can for cut where you for less money can for cut more CO2 and the obvious answer is yes more CO2 and the obvious answer is yes more CO2 and the obvious answer is yes that's what we've seen for instance with that's what we've seen for instance with that's what we've seen for instance with uh fracking uh the the fact that the US uh fracking uh the the fact that the US uh fracking uh the the fact that the US went from a lot of coal to a lot of gas went from a lot of coal to a lot of gas went from a lot of coal to a lot of gas because gas became incredibly cheap because gas became incredibly cheap because gas became incredibly cheap because gas emits about half as much as because gas emits about half as much as because gas emits about half as much as as coal does when you use it for elect as coal does when you use it for elect as coal does when you use it for elect uh for power that basically cut more uh for power that basically cut more uh for power that basically cut more carbon emissions than pretty much any carbon emissions than pretty much any carbon emissions than pretty much any other single thing and we should get the other single thing and we should get the other single thing and we should get the rest of the world in some sense to frac rest of the world in some sense to frac rest of the world in some sense to frac because it's really cheap there are some because it's really cheap there are some because it's really cheap there are some problems and absolutely we can we can problems and absolutely we can we can problems and absolutely we can we can also have that conversation there is no also have that conversation there is no also have that conversation there is no technology is Problem free but technology is Problem free but technology is Problem free but fundamentally it's an incredibly cheap fundamentally it's an incredibly cheap fundamentally it's an incredibly cheap way to get people to cut a lot of CO2 way to get people to cut a lot of CO2 way to get people to cut a lot of CO2 it's not the final solution because it's it's not the final solution because it's it's not the final solution because it's still a fossil fuel but it's a much still a fossil fuel but it's a much still a fossil fuel but it's a much better fossil fuel if you will and it's better fossil fuel if you will and it's better fossil fuel if you will and it's much more realistic to do that so that's much more realistic to do that so that's much more realistic to do that so that's one part of the thing the other one is one part of the thing the other one is one part of the thing the other one is when we talked about for instance uh how when we talked about for instance uh how when we talked about for instance uh how do we help people in Florida who gets do we help people in Florida who gets do we help people in Florida who gets hit by hurricane or how do we help hit by hurricane or how do we help hit by hurricane or how do we help people that get damaged in flash floods people that get damaged in flash floods people that get damaged in flash floods the people who are in who are in uh in the people who are in who are in uh in the people who are in who are in uh in heat waves and the symbol the simple heat waves and the symbol the simple heat waves and the symbol the simple answer is there's a lot of very very answer is there's a lot of very very answer is there's a lot of very very cheap and effective things that we could cheap and effective things that we could cheap and effective things that we could do first so most climate people will do first so most climate people will do first so most climate people will tend to sort of say we gotta you know uh tend to sort of say we gotta you know uh tend to sort of say we gotta you know uh get rid of all carbon emissions we've get rid of all carbon emissions we've get rid of all carbon emissions we've got to change our entire uh the the got to change our entire uh the the got to change our entire uh the the engine the uh the the sort of powers the engine the uh the the sort of powers the engine the uh the the sort of powers the world and has powered us for the last world and has powered us for the last world and has powered us for the last 200 years 200 years 200 years and that's all good and well but it's and that's all good and well but it's and that's all good and well but it's really really hard to do and it's really really hard to do and it's really really hard to do and it's probably not going to do very much and

probably not going to do very much and probably not going to do very much and even if you succeed it it would only even if you succeed it it would only even if you succeed it it would only help you know future victims of future help you know future victims of future help you know future victims of future hurricane the ends in Florida a tiny hurricane the ends in Florida a tiny hurricane the ends in Florida a tiny tiny bit at best so instead let's try to tiny bit at best so instead let's try to tiny bit at best so instead let's try to focus on not getting people to build focus on not getting people to build focus on not getting people to build right on the waterfront where you're right on the waterfront where you're right on the waterfront where you're incredibly vulnerable and where you're incredibly vulnerable and where you're incredibly vulnerable and where you're very likely to get hit where we very likely to get hit where we very likely to get hit where we subsidize people uh with uh with Federal subsidize people uh with uh with Federal subsidize people uh with uh with Federal Insurance again which is you know Insurance again which is you know Insurance again which is you know actually losing money so we're much more actually losing money so we're much more actually losing money so we're much more about saying it's not a science question about saying it's not a science question about saying it's not a science question I just take the science for granted yes I just take the science for granted yes I just take the science for granted yes there is a problem with climate change there is a problem with climate change there is a problem with climate change but it's much more about saying how can but it's much more about saying how can but it's much more about saying how can we make smart decisions can I ask you we make smart decisions can I ask you we make smart decisions can I ask you about blind spots when you reduce stuff about blind spots when you reduce stuff about blind spots when you reduce stuff to numbers the costs and benefits to numbers the costs and benefits to numbers the costs and benefits is there stuff you might miss is there stuff you might miss is there stuff you might miss about that are important to the about that are important to the about that are important to the flourishing of the human species so flourishing of the human species so flourishing of the human species so everyone will have to say of course everyone will have to say of course everyone will have to say of course there must be blind spots but I don't there must be blind spots but I don't there must be blind spots but I don't know what they are but yeah I'm I'm sure know what they are but yeah I'm I'm sure know what they are but yeah I'm I'm sure uh Andy and would probably be better at uh Andy and would probably be better at uh Andy and would probably be better at telling me what they are uh so we try to telling me what they are uh so we try to telling me what they are uh so we try to incorporate all of it but obviously incorporate all of it but obviously incorporate all of it but obviously we're not successful we you can't we're not successful we you can't we're not successful we you can't incorporate everything for instance in incorporate everything for instance in incorporate everything for instance in the cost benefit analysis but but the the cost benefit analysis but but the the cost benefit analysis but but the point is in some way point is in some way point is in some way um I I would worry a lot about this if um I I would worry a lot about this if um I I would worry a lot about this if we were you know sort of close to we were you know sort of close to we were you know sort of close to Perfection human race we're doing almost Perfection human race we're doing almost Perfection human race we're doing almost everything right but we're not quite everything right but we're not quite everything right but we're not quite right then we need to get the last right then we need to get the last right then we need to get the last digits right but I think it's much more digits right but I think it's much more digits right but I think it's much more the you know and the the point that I the you know and the the point that I the you know and the the point that I tried to make before that we're all tried to make before that we're all tried to make before that we're all we're all focused on going to an we're all focused on going to an we're all focused on going to an electric car or you know something else electric car or you know something else electric car or you know something else rather than uh fracking we're all

rather than uh fracking we're all rather than uh fracking we're all focused on cutting carbon emissions focused on cutting carbon emissions focused on cutting carbon emissions instead of reducing vulnerability so instead of reducing vulnerability so instead of reducing vulnerability so we're simply getting in orders of we're simply getting in orders of we're simply getting in orders of magnitude wrong uh and and while I'm magnitude wrong uh and and while I'm magnitude wrong uh and and while I'm sure I have blind blind spots I think sure I have blind blind spots I think sure I have blind blind spots I think they're probably not big enough to to they're probably not big enough to to they're probably not big enough to to overturn that point Andy was Bjorn and overturn that point Andy was Bjorn and overturn that point Andy was Bjorn and economists are all wrong about economists are all wrong about economists are all wrong about everything well the models we could everything well the models we could everything well the models we could spend a whole day on models uh their spend a whole day on models uh their spend a whole day on models uh their economic models there's this thing economic models there's this thing economic models there's this thing called optimization models the there called optimization models the there called optimization models the there were two big ones used to assess the were two big ones used to assess the were two big ones used to assess the U.S plan this new big Ira inflation U.S plan this new big Ira inflation U.S plan this new big Ira inflation reduction package and they're fine reduction package and they're fine reduction package and they're fine they're a starting point for they're a starting point for they're a starting point for understanding understanding understanding what's possible but as this gets to the what's possible but as this gets to the what's possible but as this gets to the journalism part or the public part journalism part or the public part journalism part or the public part you have to look at the caveats you have you have to look at the caveats you have you have to look at the caveats you have to look at what model economists to look at what model economists to look at what model economists expressly exclude things that are not expressly exclude things that are not expressly exclude things that are not modelable and if you look in the fine modelable and if you look in the fine modelable and if you look in the fine print on the repeat project the print on the repeat project the print on the repeat project the Princeton version of the assessment of Princeton version of the assessment of Princeton version of the assessment of the recent giant legislation the recent giant legislation the recent giant legislation the fine print is the front page for me the fine print is the front page for me the fine print is the front page for me is a deep diving journalist because it is a deep diving journalist because it is a deep diving journalist because it says we didn't include any sources of says we didn't include any sources of says we didn't include any sources of friction meaning right resistance to friction meaning right resistance to friction meaning right resistance to putting new transmission lines through putting new transmission lines through putting new transmission lines through your community or people who don't want your community or people who don't want your community or people who don't want um mining in America because we've um mining in America because we've um mining in America because we've exported all of our mining we mine our exported all of our mining we mine our exported all of our mining we mine our Cobalt and Congo you know and trying to

Cobalt and Congo you know and trying to Cobalt and Congo you know and trying to get a new mine in Nevada get a new mine in Nevada get a new mine in Nevada was a fraught fight that took more than was a fraught fight that took more than was a fraught fight that took more than 10 years for lithium 10 years for lithium 10 years for lithium so so if you're excluding those elements so so if you're excluding those elements so so if you're excluding those elements from your model which on the surface from your model which on the surface from your model which on the surface makes this 370 billion dollar package makes this 370 billion dollar package makes this 370 billion dollar package have an emissions reduction trajectory have an emissions reduction trajectory have an emissions reduction trajectory that's really pretty good that's really pretty good that's really pretty good and you're not saying in your first line and you're not saying in your first line and you're not saying in your first line by the way these are the things we're by the way these are the things we're by the way these are the things we're not considering not considering not considering that's the job of a journalist summarize that's the job of a journalist summarize that's the job of a journalist summarize all of human history with that one word all of human history with that one word all of human history with that one word friction friction friction yeah well inertia friction implies yeah well inertia friction implies yeah well inertia friction implies there's a force that's already being there's a force that's already being there's a force that's already being resisted but there's also inertia which resisted but there's also inertia which resisted but there's also inertia which is a huge part of our is a huge part of our is a huge part of our you know we have a status quo bias you know we have a status quo bias you know we have a status quo bias the scientists that I the scientists that I the scientists that I in grappling with the climate problem as in grappling with the climate problem as in grappling with the climate problem as a journalist I paid too much attention a journalist I paid too much attention a journalist I paid too much attention to climate scientists to climate scientists to climate scientists that's why all my articles focused on that's why all my articles focused on that's why all my articles focused on climate change and it was 2006. I climate change and it was 2006. I climate change and it was 2006. I remember now pretty clearly uh remember now pretty clearly uh remember now pretty clearly uh I was asked by the week in review I was asked by the week in review I was asked by the week in review section of the New York Times to write a section of the New York Times to write a section of the New York Times to write a sort of a weekend thumb sucker we call sort of a weekend thumb sucker we call sort of a weekend thumb sucker we call them on um them on um them on um just sit and suck yourself and think just sit and suck yourself and think just sit and suck yourself and think about something why is everybody so about something why is everybody so about something why is everybody so pissed off about climate change it was pissed off about climate change it was pissed off about climate change it was after Al Gore's movie The Al Gore movie after Al Gore's movie The Al Gore movie after Al Gore's movie The Al Gore movie came out Inconvenient Truth the came out Inconvenient Truth the came out Inconvenient Truth the hurricane Katrina's big senator inhofe hurricane Katrina's big senator inhofe hurricane Katrina's big senator inhofe in the Senate from Oklahoma wasn't yet in the Senate from Oklahoma wasn't yet in the Senate from Oklahoma wasn't yet throwing snowballs but it was close to throwing snowballs but it was close to throwing snowballs but it was close to that and so I looked into what was going that and so I looked into what was going that and so I looked into what was going on why is this so heated in 2006 the

on why is this so heated in 2006 the on why is this so heated in 2006 the story is called Yelling fire on hot story is called Yelling fire on hot story is called Yelling fire on hot planet planet planet and that was the first time this is and that was the first time this is and that was the first time this is after 18 years of writing about global after 18 years of writing about global after 18 years of writing about global warming warming warming that was the first time I interviewed a that was the first time I interviewed a that was the first time I interviewed a social scientist not a climate scientist social scientist not a climate scientist social scientist not a climate scientist her name is Helen Ingram she's the UC her name is Helen Ingram she's the UC her name is Helen Ingram she's the UC Irvine Irvine Irvine and she laid out for me the factors that and she laid out for me the factors that and she laid out for me the factors that determine why people vote or what they determine why people vote or what they determine why people vote or what they vote for what they think about vote for what they think about vote for what they think about politically politically politically and they were the antithesis of the and they were the antithesis of the and they were the antithesis of the climate problem climate problem climate problem she used the words she said people go in she used the words she said people go in she used the words she said people go in the voting booth the voting booth the voting booth thinking about things that are soon thinking about things that are soon thinking about things that are soon Salient and certain Salient and certain Salient and certain and climate change is complex you know and climate change is complex you know and climate change is complex you know has long time scales and and that really has long time scales and and that really has long time scales and and that really jogged me and then I between 2006 2010 jogged me and then I between 2006 2010 jogged me and then I between 2006 2010 I started interviewing other social I started interviewing other social I started interviewing other social scientists and I I this was by far the scientists and I I this was by far the scientists and I I this was by far the scariest science of all it's the the scariest science of all it's the the scariest science of all it's the the climate in our heads or inconvenient climate in our heads or inconvenient climate in our heads or inconvenient Minds Minds Minds and in how that translates into and in how that translates into and in how that translates into Political norms and stuff really became Political norms and stuff really became Political norms and stuff really became the monster not the not the climate the monster not the not the climate the monster not the not the climate system is there social dynamics did the system is there social dynamics did the system is there social dynamics did the scientists themselves because uh scientists themselves because uh scientists themselves because uh I've gotten to witness a kind of I've gotten to witness a kind of I've gotten to witness a kind of flocking Behavior with Scientists so flocking Behavior with Scientists so flocking Behavior with Scientists so it's almost like a flock of birds within it's almost like a flock of birds within it's almost like a flock of birds within the flock the flock the flock there's a lot of disagreement and fun there's a lot of disagreement and fun there's a lot of disagreement and fun debates and everybody trying to prove debates and everybody trying to prove debates and everybody trying to prove each other wrong but they're all kind of each other wrong but they're all kind of each other wrong but they're all kind of headed in the same direction and you headed in the same direction and you headed in the same direction and you don't want to be the bird that kind of don't want to be the bird that kind of don't want to be the bird that kind of leaves that flock no so like there's an leaves that flock no so like there's an leaves that flock no so like there's an idea that science is a mechanism will

idea that science is a mechanism will idea that science is a mechanism will get us towards the truth but it'll get us towards the truth but it'll get us towards the truth but it'll definitely get us somewhere but it could definitely get us somewhere but it could definitely get us somewhere but it could be not the truth in the short term in be not the truth in the short term in be not the truth in the short term in the long term a bigger flock will come the long term a bigger flock will come the long term a bigger flock will come along and it'll get us to the truth but along and it'll get us to the truth but along and it'll get us to the truth but there's a sense that I don't know if there's a sense that I don't know if there's a sense that I don't know if there's a mechanism within science to there's a mechanism within science to there's a mechanism within science to like like like snap out of it if you're done the wrong snap out of it if you're done the wrong snap out of it if you're done the wrong track usually you get it right but track usually you get it right but track usually you get it right but sometimes you don't when you don't it's sometimes you don't when you don't it's sometimes you don't when you don't it's very costly and there's so many factors very costly and there's so many factors very costly and there's so many factors that line up to perpetuate that flocking that line up to perpetuate that flocking that line up to perpetuate that flocking behavior behavior behavior one is Media attention comes in one is Media attention comes in one is Media attention comes in the other is funding comes in the the other is funding comes in the the other is funding comes in the National Science Foundation or whatever National Science Foundation or whatever National Science Foundation or whatever European foundations pour a huge amount European foundations pour a huge amount European foundations pour a huge amount of money into things related to climate of money into things related to climate of money into things related to climate and so you and then you your narrative and so you and then you your narrative and so you and then you your narrative in your head is in your head is in your head is shaped by that aspect of the climate shaped by that aspect of the climate shaped by that aspect of the climate problem that's in the spotlight I I problem that's in the spotlight I I problem that's in the spotlight I I started using this hashtag started using this hashtag started using this hashtag a few years back narrative capture like a few years back narrative capture like a few years back narrative capture like be wary of narrative capture where be wary of narrative capture where be wary of narrative capture where you're you're you're you're on a train and everyone's getting you're on a train and everyone's getting you're on a train and everyone's getting on the train and this is in the media on the train and this is in the media on the train and this is in the media too not just science and it becomes self too not just science and it becomes self too not just science and it becomes self self-sustaining and self-sustaining and self-sustaining and and contrary indications are ignored or and contrary indications are ignored or and contrary indications are ignored or downplayed no one does replication downplayed no one does replication downplayed no one does replication science because you don't your career science because you don't your career science because you don't your career doesn't Advance through replicating doesn't Advance through replicating doesn't Advance through replicating someone else's work so those contrary someone else's work so those contrary someone else's work so those contrary indications are are not necessarily you indications are are not necessarily you indications are are not necessarily you know really dug in on and this is for know really dug in on and this is for know really dug in on and this is for this is Way Beyond climate this is of

this is Way Beyond climate this is of this is Way Beyond climate this is of many fields you as you said you might many fields you as you said you might many fields you as you said you might have seen this in Ai and it's really have seen this in Ai and it's really have seen this in Ai and it's really hard to find it's another form of path hard to find it's another form of path hard to find it's another form of path dependency the the term I used for dependency the the term I used for dependency the the term I used for the breaking narrative capture to me the breaking narrative capture to me the breaking narrative capture to me for me has come mostly for me has come mostly for me has come mostly from stepping back from stepping back from stepping back and reminding myself of the basic and reminding myself of the basic and reminding myself of the basic principles of Journalism principles of Journalism principles of Journalism journalism's basic principles are useful journalism's basic principles are useful journalism's basic principles are useful for anybody for anybody for anybody confronting a big enormous Dynamic confronting a big enormous Dynamic confronting a big enormous Dynamic complex thing is complex thing is complex thing is who what where when why just be really who what where when why just be really who what where when why just be really rigorous about not assuming because rigorous about not assuming because rigorous about not assuming because there's a fire in Boulder County or a there's a fire in Boulder County or a there's a fire in Boulder County or a flood in Fort Myers that climb it which flood in Fort Myers that climb it which flood in Fort Myers that climb it which is in your head because you're part of is in your head because you're part of is in your head because you're part of the climate team at the New York Times the climate team at the New York Times the climate team at the New York Times or whatever or whatever or whatever is the front is the front is the front is the foreground part of this problem is the foreground part of this problem is the foreground part of this problem what's the psychological challenge of what's the psychological challenge of what's the psychological challenge of that that that if you incorporate the fact that if you if you incorporate the fact that if you if you incorporate the fact that if you uh try to step back and have Nuance you uh try to step back and have Nuance you uh try to step back and have Nuance you might get attacked by the others in the might get attacked by the others in the might get attacked by the others in the flock oh I was right well you you've flock oh I was right well you you've flock oh I was right well you you've certainly been both of you get attacked certainly been both of you get attacked certainly been both of you get attacked yeah continuously from different sides yeah continuously from different sides yeah continuously from different sides so let me just ask about that how does so let me just ask about that how does so let me just ask about that how does that feel and how do you continue that feel and how do you continue that feel and how do you continue thinking clearly thinking clearly thinking clearly and uh continuously try to have humility and uh continuously try to have humility and uh continuously try to have humility and step back and not get defensive in and step back and not get defensive in and step back and not get defensive in in that on as a communicator I I mean in that on as a communicator I I mean in that on as a communicator I I mean there are other things happening at the

there are other things happening at the there are other things happening at the same time right I'm now 35 years into same time right I'm now 35 years into same time right I'm now 35 years into almost 40 years into my journalism almost 40 years into my journalism almost 40 years into my journalism career so I have some Independence I'm career so I have some Independence I'm career so I have some Independence I'm free from the obligations of free from the obligations of free from the obligations of you know don't really need my next you know don't really need my next you know don't really need my next paycheck I live in Maine now in a house paycheck I live in Maine now in a house paycheck I live in Maine now in a house I love I own it outright it's a great I love I own it outright it's a great I love I own it outright it's a great privilege and honor and privilege and honor and privilege and honor and um as a result of a lot of hard work and um as a result of a lot of hard work and um as a result of a lot of hard work and and so I'm Freer to think freely and I and so I'm Freer to think freely and I and so I'm Freer to think freely and I know my colleagues in newsrooms when I know my colleagues in newsrooms when I know my colleagues in newsrooms when I was at the New York Times in The was at the New York Times in The was at the New York Times in The Newsroom Newsroom Newsroom you become captive to a narrative just you become captive to a narrative just you become captive to a narrative just as you do out in the world as you do out in the world as you do out in the world um um um the New York Times had a narrative about the New York Times had a narrative about the New York Times had a narrative about the about Saddam Hussein the about Saddam Hussein the about Saddam Hussein drove us into drove us into drove us into that war the times sucked right into that war the times sucked right into that war the times sucked right into that and helped perpetuate it that and helped perpetuate it that and helped perpetuate it um I think we're in a bit of a narrative um I think we're in a bit of a narrative um I think we're in a bit of a narrative we the media my friends at the times and we the media my friends at the times and we the media my friends at the times and others are on a train ride on climate others are on a train ride on climate others are on a train ride on climate change depicting it in a certain way change depicting it in a certain way change depicting it in a certain way that really I saw problems with how they that really I saw problems with how they that really I saw problems with how they handled the Joe manchin issue in America handled the Joe manchin issue in America handled the Joe manchin issue in America the the West Virginia senator they the the West Virginia senator they the the West Virginia senator they really kind of piled on and zoomed in on really kind of piled on and zoomed in on really kind of piled on and zoomed in on his Investments his Investments his Investments which is really important to do but they which is really important to do but they which is really important to do but they never pulled back and said by the way never pulled back and said by the way never pulled back and said by the way he's he's he's a rare species he's a democrat in West a rare species he's a democrat in West a rare species he's a democrat in West Virginia and which to see there'll be Virginia and which to see there'll be Virginia and which to see there'll be other otherwise occupied by Republican other otherwise occupied by Republican other otherwise occupied by Republican there would be no talk of a climate deal there would be no talk of a climate deal there would be no talk of a climate deal or any of that stuff without him and but or any of that stuff without him and but or any of that stuff without him and but when you once you're starting to kind of when you once you're starting to kind of when you once you're starting to kind of frame a story in a certain way you frame a story in a certain way you frame a story in a certain way you carried along and as you said sometimes

carried along and as you said sometimes carried along and as you said sometimes it breaks in a new Norm arrives but it breaks in a new Norm arrives but it breaks in a new Norm arrives but the climate train is still kind of the climate train is still kind of the climate train is still kind of rushing forward and missing rushing forward and missing rushing forward and missing the opportunity to cut it into its the opportunity to cut it into its the opportunity to cut it into its pieces pieces pieces and say well what's really wrong with and say well what's really wrong with and say well what's really wrong with Florida Florida Florida and it's for me when you ask about how I and it's for me when you ask about how I and it's for me when you ask about how I handle the slings and arrows and stuff handle the slings and arrows and stuff handle the slings and arrows and stuff it's it's partially because I'm fast it's it's partially because I'm fast it's it's partially because I'm fast worrying about it too much worrying about it too much worrying about it too much um I mean it was pretty intense 2009 um I mean it was pretty intense 2009 um I mean it was pretty intense 2009 Rush Limbaugh Rush Limbaugh Rush Limbaugh suggested I kill myself on his radio suggested I kill myself on his radio suggested I kill myself on his radio show it's a really great what was that show it's a really great what was that show it's a really great what was that about I had this is actually this was a about I had this is actually this was a about I had this is actually this was a meeting in Washington meeting in Washington meeting in Washington in 2009 on population at the Wilson in 2009 on population at the Wilson in 2009 on population at the Wilson Center Center Center I couldn't be there so actually this is I couldn't be there so actually this is I couldn't be there so actually this is pre-covered but I was zooming in or pre-covered but I was zooming in or pre-covered but I was zooming in or something like Skyping in something like Skyping in something like Skyping in and I was talking about and I was talking about and I was talking about in a playful way I said Well if you in a playful way I said Well if you in a playful way I said Well if you really want to worry about carbon this really want to worry about carbon this really want to worry about carbon this is during the debate over uh carbon tax is during the debate over uh carbon tax is during the debate over uh carbon tax model for a bill in America model for a bill in America model for a bill in America we should probably uh have a carbon tax we should probably uh have a carbon tax we should probably uh have a carbon tax for kids because a bigger family in for kids because a bigger family in for kids because a bigger family in America is a big source of more America is a big source of more America is a big source of more emissions it was kind of a playful emissions it was kind of a playful emissions it was kind of a playful thought bubble some right-wing blogger thought bubble some right-wing blogger thought bubble some right-wing blogger blogged about it it got into Russia's blogged about it it got into Russia's blogged about it it got into Russia's you know pile of things to talk about you know pile of things to talk about you know pile of things to talk about and and the clip is really fun awesome and and the clip is really fun awesome and and the clip is really fun awesome meaning so uh if humans well these are meaning so uh if humans well these are meaning so uh if humans well these are bad for the environment uh we can I can bad for the environment uh we can I can bad for the environment uh we can I can imagine imagine imagine that's how you know you've made it

that's how you know you've made it that's how you know you've made it explicit he said Mr revkin of the New explicit he said Mr revkin of the New explicit he said Mr revkin of the New York Andrew rev kind of the New York York Andrew rev kind of the New York York Andrew rev kind of the New York Times if you really think that people Times if you really think that people Times if you really think that people are the worst thing that ever happened are the worst thing that ever happened are the worst thing that ever happened to this planet why do you just kill to this planet why do you just kill to this planet why do you just kill yourself and save the planet by dying it yourself and save the planet by dying it yourself and save the planet by dying it was tough for you it was it was tough was tough for you it was it was tough was tough for you it was it was tough for my family you know to me it did for my family you know to me it did for my family you know to me it did generate some interesting calls and generate some interesting calls and generate some interesting calls and stuff on my my voicemail and stuff on my my voicemail and stuff on my my voicemail and um but but on the left I was also um but but on the left I was also um but but on the left I was also undercut Roger Pilkey Jr a prominent undercut Roger Pilkey Jr a prominent undercut Roger Pilkey Jr a prominent researcher of climate risk and climate researcher of climate risk and climate researcher of climate risk and climate policy UC Boulder was actively policy UC Boulder was actively policy UC Boulder was actively his career track was his career track was his career track was derailed purposefully by people who just derailed purposefully by people who just derailed purposefully by people who just thought his message was too off off the thought his message was too off off the thought his message was too off off the path when you you know path when you you know path when you you know even dealing with this for a very long even dealing with this for a very long even dealing with this for a very long time so look I I just want to get back time so look I I just want to get back time so look I I just want to get back to so the science I I don't think the to so the science I I don't think the to so the science I I don't think the the science get it so much wrong as it the science get it so much wrong as it the science get it so much wrong as it just becomes accepted to to make certain just becomes accepted to to make certain just becomes accepted to to make certain assumptions as you just said we we assumptions as you just said we we assumptions as you just said we we assume no friction so you know there's assume no friction so you know there's assume no friction so you know there's there's a way that you kind of model the there's a way that you kind of model the there's a way that you kind of model the world that ends up being also a world that ends up being also a world that ends up being also a convenient message uh in many ways and I convenient message uh in many ways and I convenient message uh in many ways and I think the the main convenient message in think the the main convenient message in think the the main convenient message in climate and it's not surprising if you climate and it's not surprising if you climate and it's not surprising if you think about it uh you know the main think about it uh you know the main think about it uh you know the main convenient message is that the best way convenient message is that the best way convenient message is that the best way to do something about all the things to do something about all the things to do something about all the things that we call climate is to cut CO2 that we call climate is to cut CO2 that we call climate is to cut CO2 and that turns out to only sometimes be and that turns out to only sometimes be and that turns out to only sometimes be true and with with a lot of caveats but true and with with a lot of caveats but true and with with a lot of caveats but that's sort of the message it takes a that's sort of the message it takes a that's sort of the message it takes a long time yes yes it's really really long time yes yes it's really really long time yes yes it's really really difficult to do in any meaningful sort

difficult to do in any meaningful sort difficult to do in any meaningful sort of time frame uh and and and if you of time frame uh and and and if you of time frame uh and and and if you challenge that you yes you're outside challenge that you yes you're outside challenge that you yes you're outside the flock and you get attacked I've the flock and you get attacked I've the flock and you get attacked I've always uh so uh somebody told me once uh always uh so uh somebody told me once uh always uh so uh somebody told me once uh I think it's true they say it at the uh I think it's true they say it at the uh I think it's true they say it at the uh Hobart law school if you have a good Hobart law school if you have a good Hobart law school if you have a good case pound the case if you have a bad case pound the case if you have a bad case pound the case if you have a bad case pound the table uh and so I've case pound the table uh and so I've case pound the table uh and so I've always felt that when people go after me always felt that when people go after me always felt that when people go after me they're kind of pounding to table they're kind of pounding to table they're kind of pounding to table they're you know they're literally they're you know they're literally they're you know they're literally screaming I don't have a good case I'm screaming I don't have a good case I'm screaming I don't have a good case I'm really annoyed with what you're saying really annoyed with what you're saying really annoyed with what you're saying and and so to me that actually means and and so to me that actually means and and so to me that actually means it's much more important to make this it's much more important to make this it's much more important to make this argument uh sure I mean I would love you argument uh sure I mean I would love you argument uh sure I mean I would love you know everyone just saying oh that's a know everyone just saying oh that's a know everyone just saying oh that's a really good point I'm gonna use that but really good point I'm gonna use that but really good point I'm gonna use that but you know uh we're we're stuck in a you know uh we're we're stuck in a you know uh we're we're stuck in a situation certainly in a conversation situation certainly in a conversation situation certainly in a conversation where where where a lot of people invested a lot of time a lot of people invested a lot of time a lot of people invested a lot of time and energy on saying we should cut and energy on saying we should cut and energy on saying we should cut carbon emissions this is the way to help carbon emissions this is the way to help carbon emissions this is the way to help humankind and and just be clear I think humankind and and just be clear I think humankind and and just be clear I think we should cut carbon emissions as well we should cut carbon emissions as well we should cut carbon emissions as well but we should also just be realistic but we should also just be realistic but we should also just be realistic about what we can achieve with that and about what we can achieve with that and about what we can achieve with that and what are all the other things that we what are all the other things that we what are all the other things that we could also do uh and it turns out that a could also do uh and it turns out that a could also do uh and it turns out that a lot of these other things are much lot of these other things are much lot of these other things are much cheaper much more effective will help cheaper much more effective will help cheaper much more effective will help much more much quicker and so getting much more much quicker and so getting much more much quicker and so getting that point out is just an incredibly that point out is just an incredibly that point out is just an incredibly important for us to get it right so in important for us to get it right so in important for us to get it right so in in some sense you know uh uh to make in some sense you know uh uh to make in some sense you know uh uh to make sure that we don't do another Iraq and sure that we don't do another Iraq and sure that we don't do another Iraq and we don't do another uh you know lots of we don't do another uh you know lots of we don't do another uh you know lots of stupid decisions uh I mean this this is stupid decisions uh I mean this this is stupid decisions uh I mean this this is one of the things mankind is very good one of the things mankind is very good one of the things mankind is very good at uh and I guess uh I I see my role uh

at uh and I guess uh I I see my role uh at uh and I guess uh I I see my role uh and I think that's probably also how you and I think that's probably also how you and I think that's probably also how you see yourself is trying to you know get see yourself is trying to you know get see yourself is trying to you know get everyone to do it slightly less wrong so everyone to do it slightly less wrong so everyone to do it slightly less wrong so let me ask you about a deep let me ask you about a deep let me ask you about a deep psychological effect for you there's psychological effect for you there's psychological effect for you there's also a drug of martyrdom also a drug of martyrdom also a drug of martyrdom so whenever you stand against the flock so whenever you stand against the flock so whenever you stand against the flock right no there is uh you wrote right no there is uh you wrote right no there is uh you wrote a couple of really good books on the a couple of really good books on the a couple of really good books on the topic the most recent false alarm topic the most recent false alarm topic the most recent false alarm I stand as the holder of Truth I stand as the holder of Truth I stand as the holder of Truth that everybody who is alarmist is wrong that everybody who is alarmist is wrong that everybody who is alarmist is wrong and here's just simple calm way to and here's just simple calm way to and here's just simple calm way to express the facts of the matter express the facts of the matter express the facts of the matter and that's very compelling to a very and that's very compelling to a very and that's very compelling to a very large number of people they want to make large number of people they want to make large number of people they want to make a martyr out of you a martyr out of you a martyr out of you is that are you worried about your own is that are you worried about your own is that are you worried about your own mind mind mind uh being corrupted by that by enjoying uh being corrupted by that by enjoying uh being corrupted by that by enjoying standing against the crowd no no no standing against the crowd no no no standing against the crowd no no no there's there's very little uh I I guess there's there's very little uh I I guess there's there's very little uh I I guess I can see what you're saying sort of in I can see what you're saying sort of in I can see what you're saying sort of in a literary way or something a literary way or something a literary way or something poetic here yeah there's there's very poetic here yeah there's there's very poetic here yeah there's there's very little Comfort or or sort of usefulness little Comfort or or sort of usefulness little Comfort or or sort of usefulness in in in Annoying a lot of people uh you in in in Annoying a lot of people uh you in in in Annoying a lot of people uh you know it just it just you know whenever I know it just it just you know whenever I know it just it just you know whenever I go to a party for instance I know that go to a party for instance I know that go to a party for instance I know that there's a good chance people are going there's a good chance people are going there's a good chance people are going to be annoyed with me and I would love to be annoyed with me and I would love to be annoyed with me and I would love that not to be the case but what I try that not to be the case but what I try that not to be the case but what I try to do is you know uh uh so I I try to be to do is you know uh uh so I I try to be to do is you know uh uh so I I try to be very polite and you know sort of not very polite and you know sort of not very polite and you know sort of not push people's buttons unless they they

push people's buttons unless they they push people's buttons unless they they sort of actively say so you're saying sort of actively say so you're saying sort of actively say so you're saying all kind of stupid stuff on the climate all kind of stupid stuff on the climate all kind of stupid stuff on the climate right uh and then try to engage with right uh and then try to engage with right uh and then try to engage with them and say well what what is it you're them and say well what what is it you're them and say well what what is it you're thinking about and hopefully you know thinking about and hopefully you know thinking about and hopefully you know during that party and then it ends up during that party and then it ends up during that party and then it ends up being a really bad party for me but being a really bad party for me but being a really bad party for me but anyway so I'll I'll you know I'll end up anyway so I'll I'll you know I'll end up anyway so I'll I'll you know I'll end up possibly convincing one person that I'm possibly convincing one person that I'm possibly convincing one person that I'm not totally stupid but no I'm I'm not not totally stupid but no I'm I'm not not totally stupid but no I'm I'm not playing the Martyr and I'm not enjoying playing the Martyr and I'm not enjoying playing the Martyr and I'm not enjoying that that that see it's so interesting see it's so interesting see it's so interesting the uh I mean they're the the the uh I mean they're the the the uh I mean they're the the um martyr complex is all around the um martyr complex is all around the um martyr complex is all around the climate question uh Michael Mann at the climate question uh Michael Mann at the climate question uh Michael Mann at the far end of the spectrum of activism from far end of the spectrum of activism from far end of the spectrum of activism from where Bjorn is uh was a climate where Bjorn is uh was a climate where Bjorn is uh was a climate scientist is a climate scientist who uh scientist is a climate scientist who uh scientist is a climate scientist who uh was actively attacked by was actively attacked by was actively attacked by um inhofe and West in Virginia um inhofe and West in Virginia um inhofe and West in Virginia politicians and politicians and politicians and really abused in many ways he had come really abused in many ways he had come really abused in many ways he had come up with a very prominent model of up with a very prominent model of up with a very prominent model of looking at long-term records of climate looking at long-term records of climate looking at long-term records of climate change and got this hockey stick for change and got this hockey stick for change and got this hockey stick for temperature uh and he you know he temperature uh and he you know he temperature uh and he you know he definitely sits there in a certain kind definitely sits there in a certain kind definitely sits there in a certain kind of Spotlight because of that so it's not of Spotlight because of that so it's not of Spotlight because of that so it's not unique at any particular vantage point unique at any particular vantage point unique at any particular vantage point in the the spectrum of sort of prominent in the the spectrum of sort of prominent in the the spectrum of sort of prominent people on the debate Andrew you co-wrote people on the debate Andrew you co-wrote people on the debate Andrew you co-wrote the book The Human planet Earth at the the book The Human planet Earth at the the book The Human planet Earth at the dawn of the anthropocene which is the dawn of the anthropocene which is the dawn of the anthropocene which is the new age when humans are actually having new age when humans are actually having new age when humans are actually having an impact on the environment let me ask an impact on the environment let me ask an impact on the environment let me ask the question of what do you find most the question of what do you find most the question of what do you find most beautiful and fascinating about our beautiful and fascinating about our beautiful and fascinating about our planet Earth planet Earth planet Earth it'd be cheap to say everything but just it'd be cheap to say everything but just it'd be cheap to say everything but just walking here this morning under the

walking here this morning under the walking here this morning under the bridge over the Colorado River seeing bridge over the Colorado River seeing bridge over the Colorado River seeing the birds knowing there's bat colonies the birds knowing there's bat colonies the birds knowing there's bat colonies massive baton colonies around here that massive baton colonies around here that massive baton colonies around here that I got to visit a few years ago I I got to visit a few years ago I I got to visit a few years ago I experienced one of those bat explosions experienced one of those bat explosions experienced one of those bat explosions it's fine mind-blowing uh the the I've it's fine mind-blowing uh the the I've it's fine mind-blowing uh the the I've been really lucky as a journalist to been really lucky as a journalist to been really lucky as a journalist to have gone to the North Pole just to camp have gone to the North Pole just to camp have gone to the North Pole just to camp on the sea ice with Russian help at this on the sea ice with Russian help at this on the sea ice with Russian help at this camp that was set up for tourists coming camp that was set up for tourists coming camp that was set up for tourists coming from Europe every year there were from Europe every year there were from Europe every year there were scientists on the sea ice floating on scientists on the sea ice floating on scientists on the sea ice floating on the 14 000 foot deep Arctic Ocean and I the 14 000 foot deep Arctic Ocean and I the 14 000 foot deep Arctic Ocean and I was with them for several days I wrote a was with them for several days I wrote a was with them for several days I wrote a book about that too along with my book about that too along with my book about that too along with my reporting reporting reporting been in the depths of the Amazon been in the depths of the Amazon been in the depths of the Amazon rainforest I've been when I was a very rainforest I've been when I was a very rainforest I've been when I was a very young young young I was the crew on a sailboat that sailed I was the crew on a sailboat that sailed I was the crew on a sailboat that sailed two-thirds of the way around the world I two-thirds of the way around the world I two-thirds of the way around the world I I was halfway across the Indian Ocean I was halfway across the Indian Ocean I was halfway across the Indian Ocean again in 14 000 foot deep water we were again in 14 000 foot deep water we were again in 14 000 foot deep water we were just there was no wind just there was no wind just there was no wind and we were this is before way before I and we were this is before way before I and we were this is before way before I was a journalist 22 23 years old was a journalist 22 23 years old was a journalist 22 23 years old and we went swimming and swimming in 14 and we went swimming and swimming in 14 and we went swimming and swimming in 14 000 foot deep water 000 foot deep water 000 foot deep water uh you know 500 miles from Land the uh you know 500 miles from Land the uh you know 500 miles from Land the Western Indian Ocean halfway between Western Indian Ocean halfway between Western Indian Ocean halfway between Somalia and the Maldives Somalia and the Maldives Somalia and the Maldives is it like so mind-boggling chillingly is it like so mind-boggling chillingly is it like so mind-boggling chillingly Fantastical thing with a mask on looking Fantastical thing with a mask on looking Fantastical thing with a mask on looking at your Shadow going to the vanishing at your Shadow going to the vanishing at your Shadow going to the vanishing point below you looking over at the boat point below you looking over at the boat point below you looking over at the boat which is a 60-foot boat but just looks which is a 60-foot boat but just looks which is a 60-foot boat but just looks like a toy and then getting back on and like a toy and then getting back on and like a toy and then getting back on and being beholden to the elements the being beholden to the elements the being beholden to the elements the sailboat you know heading toward um sailboat you know heading toward um sailboat you know heading toward um Djibouti men's City in the power oh my

Djibouti men's City in the power oh my Djibouti men's City in the power oh my God and then you know and then um the God and then you know and then um the God and then you know and then um the human human human qualities are unbelievable you know the qualities are unbelievable you know the qualities are unbelievable you know the anthropocene anthropocene anthropocene I played a bit of a role as a journalist I played a bit of a role as a journalist I played a bit of a role as a journalist and waking people up the idea that this and waking people up the idea that this and waking people up the idea that this this era called the Holocene the last 11 this era called the Holocene the last 11 this era called the Holocene the last 11 000 years 000 years 000 years you know since the last ice age had you know since the last ice age had you know since the last ice age had ended I wrote my 1992 book on global ended I wrote my 1992 book on global ended I wrote my 1992 book on global warming warming warming thinking about all that we're just thinking about all that we're just thinking about all that we're just talking about thinking about the wonders talking about thinking about the wonders talking about thinking about the wonders of the planet thinking about the impact of the planet thinking about the impact of the planet thinking about the impact of humans so far in our explosive growth of humans so far in our explosive growth of humans so far in our explosive growth in the 20th century I wrote that perhaps in the 20th century I wrote that perhaps in the 20th century I wrote that perhaps earth scientists of the future earth scientists of the future earth scientists of the future we'll name this post Holocene we'll name this post Holocene we'll name this post Holocene era for uh for its formative element for era for uh for its formative element for era for uh for its formative element for us us us because we're kind of because we're kind of because we're kind of in charge in certain ways you know which in charge in certain ways you know which in charge in certain ways you know which is hubristic at the same time it's like is hubristic at the same time it's like is hubristic at the same time it's like you know the variability of the climate you know the variability of the climate you know the variability of the climate system is still profound without with or system is still profound without with or system is still profound without with or without global warming so this immense without global warming so this immense without global warming so this immense powerful beautiful organism that is powerful beautiful organism that is powerful beautiful organism that is Earth the all the different suborganisms Earth the all the different suborganisms Earth the all the different suborganisms that are on it do you see humans as a that are on it do you see humans as a that are on it do you see humans as a kind of parasite on this Earth no no do kind of parasite on this Earth no no do kind of parasite on this Earth no no do you see it as a you see it as a you see it as a um as something that helps the um as something that helps the um as something that helps the flourishing of the entire organism that flourishing of the entire organism that flourishing of the entire organism that can can can can can can intelligence yeah hasn't yet intelligence yeah hasn't yet intelligence yeah hasn't yet I mean is our is aren't we on uh the I mean is our is aren't we on uh the I mean is our is aren't we on uh the ability of the collective intelligence ability of the collective intelligence ability of the collective intelligence of the human species to develop all of the human species to develop all of the human species to develop all these kinds of Technologies and to be

these kinds of Technologies and to be these kinds of Technologies and to be able to uh have Twitter to introspect able to uh have Twitter to introspect able to uh have Twitter to introspect onto itself onto itself onto itself I think you know I think we're doing a I think you know I think we're doing a I think you know I think we're doing a we're it's always the way we are it's we're it's always the way we are it's we're it's always the way we are it's ketchup we're always in catch-up mode ketchup we're always in catch-up mode ketchup we're always in catch-up mode you know you know you know um right uh I was at the Vatican for a um right uh I was at the Vatican for a um right uh I was at the Vatican for a big meeting in 2014 on sustainable big meeting in 2014 on sustainable big meeting in 2014 on sustainable Humanity sustainable nature our Humanity sustainable nature our Humanity sustainable nature our responsibility and it was a week of um responsibility and it was a week of um responsibility and it was a week of um presentations by like Martin Reese who's presentations by like Martin Reese who's presentations by like Martin Reese who's this famed British scientist a physicist this famed British scientist a physicist this famed British scientist a physicist who has been around his podcast yeah who has been around his podcast yeah who has been around his podcast yeah great yeah well he's you know he's he's great yeah well he's you know he's he's great yeah well he's you know he's he's fixated on existential risk right yes he fixated on existential risk right yes he fixated on existential risk right yes he is so there's a week of this stuff and is so there's a week of this stuff and is so there's a week of this stuff and um um um the meeting was was kicked off by um the meeting was was kicked off by um the meeting was was kicked off by um I wrote about it in the Cardinal I wrote about it in the Cardinal I wrote about it in the Cardinal maradiaga who's I think from El Salvador maradiaga who's I think from El Salvador maradiaga who's I think from El Salvador he's one of the Pope's kind of Posse he he's one of the Pope's kind of Posse he he's one of the Pope's kind of Posse he gave one of the initial speeches and he gave one of the initial speeches and he gave one of the initial speeches and he said nowadays said nowadays said nowadays mankind looks like a technical Giant and mankind looks like a technical Giant and mankind looks like a technical Giant and an ethical child an ethical child an ethical child meaning our technological Wizardry is meaning our technological Wizardry is meaning our technological Wizardry is unbelievable but it's way out in front unbelievable but it's way out in front unbelievable but it's way out in front of our ability to step back and kind of of our ability to step back and kind of of our ability to step back and kind of like like like consider in the full Dimensions we need consider in the full Dimensions we need consider in the full Dimensions we need to is it helping everybody is it uh what to is it helping everybody is it uh what to is it helping everybody is it uh what what are the consequences of crispr uh what are the consequences of crispr uh what are the consequences of crispr uh you know genetics technology and there's you know genetics technology and there's you know genetics technology and there's no single answer to that if if I'm in no single answer to that if if I'm in no single answer to that if if I'm in the African Union the African Union the African Union I'm just using this as an example I'm just using this as an example I'm just using this as an example crispr's emerged so fast it can do so crispr's emerged so fast it can do so crispr's emerged so fast it can do so much by changing the nature of nature much by changing the nature of nature much by changing the nature of nature will in in a kind of a programming way

will in in a kind of a programming way will in in a kind of a programming way not you know building genes not just not you know building genes not just not you know building genes not just transferring them from one organism to transferring them from one organism to transferring them from one organism to another another another We've Only Just Begun to taste the We've Only Just Begun to taste the We've Only Just Begun to taste the fruits of that literally fruits of that literally fruits of that literally um um um um um um and it can wipe out a mosquito species and it can wipe out a mosquito species and it can wipe out a mosquito species we know how to do that now you can like we know how to do that now you can like we know how to do that now you can like literally literally literally take out the Dengue causing mosquito the take out the Dengue causing mosquito the take out the Dengue causing mosquito the scientists have done the work scientists have done the work scientists have done the work and you think okay cool well that's and you think okay cool well that's and you think okay cool well that's great uh now there's this big fight over great uh now there's this big fight over great uh now there's this big fight over whether that should happen whether that should happen whether that should happen African Union and I'm with their View African Union and I'm with their View African Union and I'm with their View says hey if we can take out a mosquito says hey if we can take out a mosquito says hey if we can take out a mosquito species that's causing horrific chronic species that's causing horrific chronic species that's causing horrific chronic loss through Dengue which I had once in loss through Dengue which I had once in loss through Dengue which I had once in Indonesia it's not fun and um we should Indonesia it's not fun and um we should Indonesia it's not fun and um we should do it you know and here's the other side do it you know and here's the other side do it you know and here's the other side of the European Union uh they're they're of the European Union uh they're they're of the European Union uh they're they're saying using their saying using their saying using their capital P precautionary capital P precautionary capital P precautionary principle principle principle says no we can't meddle with nature says no we can't meddle with nature says no we can't meddle with nature right and this is just like we were right and this is just like we were right and this is just like we were talking with climate you know there's talking with climate you know there's talking with climate you know there's the real time question and the long-term the real time question and the long-term the real time question and the long-term question and there's the uh question and there's the uh question and there's the uh people who are just facing the need to people who are just facing the need to people who are just facing the need to get through the day and be healthy and get through the day and be healthy and get through the day and be healthy and survive and have enough food survive and have enough food survive and have enough food which is not integrated sufficiently at which is not integrated sufficiently at which is not integrated sufficiently at all into the climate all into the climate all into the climate stop climate change debate and those who stop climate change debate and those who stop climate change debate and those who like are trying to cut CO2 which will like are trying to cut CO2 which will like are trying to cut CO2 which will have a benefit have a benefit have a benefit you know in the future by limiting the you know in the future by limiting the you know in the future by limiting the fat tail fat tail fat tail outcomes of this journey we're on so so outcomes of this journey we're on so so outcomes of this journey we're on so so when I think about the anthropocene I when I think about the anthropocene I when I think about the anthropocene I think about this planet

think about this planet think about this planet I love that we're here right now I love I love that we're here right now I love I love that we're here right now I love that our species has these capacities that our species has these capacities that our species has these capacities I would love for there to be a little I would love for there to be a little I would love for there to be a little bit more reflection bit more reflection bit more reflection in where things come from and where they in where things come from and where they in where things come from and where they might go whether you're a student a kid might go whether you're a student a kid might go whether you're a student a kid what's your role the wonderful thing what's your role the wonderful thing what's your role the wonderful thing about the complexity of it is everyone about the complexity of it is everyone about the complexity of it is everyone can play a role if you're an artist can play a role if you're an artist can play a role if you're an artist or a designer or architect or an or a designer or architect or an or a designer or architect or an economist or a podcaster economist or a podcaster economist or a podcaster whatever you do just tweak a little bit whatever you do just tweak a little bit whatever you do just tweak a little bit toward um toward um toward um examining these questions stepping back examining these questions stepping back examining these questions stepping back from the simplistic label throwing from the simplistic label throwing from the simplistic label throwing toward what actually is the problem in toward what actually is the problem in toward what actually is the problem in front of me whether it's in Pakistan or front of me whether it's in Pakistan or front of me whether it's in Pakistan or or in or in or in Austin or wherever you know Florida you Austin or wherever you know Florida you Austin or wherever you know Florida you know what do you find beautiful about know what do you find beautiful about know what do you find beautiful about this collective intelligence machine we this collective intelligence machine we this collective intelligence machine we have from an economics perspective it's have from an economics perspective it's have from an economics perspective it's kind of fascinating they were able to kind of fascinating they were able to kind of fascinating they were able to there's there is a machine to it that there's there is a machine to it that there's there is a machine to it that we've built up that's able to represent we've built up that's able to represent we've built up that's able to represent interests and desires and value and interests and desires and value and interests and desires and value and hopes and dreams in sort of monetary hopes and dreams in sort of monetary hopes and dreams in sort of monetary ways ways ways um that we can trade with each other we um that we can trade with each other we um that we can trade with each other we can make agreements with each other we can make agreements with each other we can make agreements with each other we can represent our goals and build can represent our goals and build can represent our goals and build companies that actually help and so on companies that actually help and so on companies that actually help and so on do you just step back every once in a do you just step back every once in a do you just step back every once in a while and Marvel at the fact that a few while and Marvel at the fact that a few while and Marvel at the fact that a few billion of us are able to somehow not billion of us are able to somehow not billion of us are able to somehow not create complete chaos and actually create complete chaos and actually create complete chaos and actually collaborate and and have a collaborative

collaborate and and have a collaborative collaborate and and have a collaborative disagreements that ultimately or so far disagreements that ultimately or so far disagreements that ultimately or so far have left led to progress yeah I think I have left led to progress yeah I think I have left led to progress yeah I think I think fundamentally the point apart from think fundamentally the point apart from think fundamentally the point apart from the fact that you know we should just be the fact that you know we should just be the fact that you know we should just be joyful of the fact that humans live here joyful of the fact that humans live here joyful of the fact that humans live here uh I think it's incredibly important to uh I think it's incredibly important to uh I think it's incredibly important to remember how much progress we've had uh remember how much progress we've had uh remember how much progress we've had uh you know most people just don't stop to you know most people just don't stop to you know most people just don't stop to think about those stats yeah I get that think about those stats yeah I get that think about those stats yeah I get that in the normal bustle of day but just you in the normal bustle of day but just you in the normal bustle of day but just you know in 1900 the average person on the know in 1900 the average person on the know in 1900 the average person on the planet lived to be 32 years planet lived to be 32 years planet lived to be 32 years 32 years that was our average life 32 years that was our average life 32 years that was our average life expectancy uh today it's about 74. uh so expectancy uh today it's about 74. uh so expectancy uh today it's about 74. uh so we've literally got two lifetimes on we've literally got two lifetimes on we've literally got two lifetimes on this planet each one of us and and you this planet each one of us and and you this planet each one of us and and you know every year you live in in the rich know every year you live in in the rich know every year you live in in the rich world you get to live three months world you get to live three months world you get to live three months longer and the poor world is about four longer and the poor world is about four longer and the poor world is about four months longer because of medical months longer because of medical months longer because of medical advances because we get better at advances because we get better at advances because we get better at dealing both with cancer and especially dealing both with cancer and especially dealing both with cancer and especially uh right now with uh with heart disease uh right now with uh with heart disease uh right now with uh with heart disease uh these are amazing achievements of uh these are amazing achievements of uh these are amazing achievements of course it's a very very small part of it course it's a very very small part of it course it's a very very small part of it we're much better fed we're much better we're much better fed we're much better we're much better fed we're much better educated we've gone from a world where educated we've gone from a world where educated we've gone from a world where virtually everyone or you know what 90 virtually everyone or you know what 90 virtually everyone or you know what 90 percent were were illiterate to a world percent were were illiterate to a world percent were were illiterate to a world where more than 90 illiterate this is an where more than 90 illiterate this is an where more than 90 illiterate this is an astounding opportunity and and 200 years astounding opportunity and and 200 years astounding opportunity and and 200 years ago ago ago 95 94 percent 95 94 percent 95 94 percent of the world were extremely poor that is of the world were extremely poor that is of the world were extremely poor that is less than a dollar a day today that uh less than a dollar a day today that uh less than a dollar a day today that uh for for the first time in 2015 it was

for for the first time in 2015 it was for for the first time in 2015 it was down below 10 so there and and again down below 10 so there and and again down below 10 so there and and again these are kind of boring statistics but these are kind of boring statistics but these are kind of boring statistics but they're also astounding uh Testaments of they're also astounding uh Testaments of they're also astounding uh Testaments of how how well Humanity has done so just how how well Humanity has done so just how how well Humanity has done so just on on the point of uh we've kind of just on on the point of uh we've kind of just on on the point of uh we've kind of just been focused on making our own world been focused on making our own world been focused on making our own world better uh and in many ways you know so better uh and in many ways you know so better uh and in many ways you know so we've hunted a lot of uh big animals we've hunted a lot of uh big animals we've hunted a lot of uh big animals either to Extinction or uh down to much either to Extinction or uh down to much either to Extinction or uh down to much much smaller populations there's much much smaller populations there's much much smaller populations there's much smaller populations of fish in the ocean smaller populations of fish in the ocean smaller populations of fish in the ocean so there's a lot of of things that that so there's a lot of of things that that so there's a lot of of things that that sort of fare the brunt of our success sort of fare the brunt of our success sort of fare the brunt of our success not it's not because we're evil in that not it's not because we're evil in that not it's not because we're evil in that sense it's just because we didn't All sense it's just because we didn't All sense it's just because we didn't All Care all that much about them uh I think Care all that much about them uh I think Care all that much about them uh I think it is important as one funnel of that it is important as one funnel of that it is important as one funnel of that I'm not gonna make a big deal out of it I'm not gonna make a big deal out of it I'm not gonna make a big deal out of it uh but the fact that we're putting out uh but the fact that we're putting out uh but the fact that we're putting out more CO2 in the atmosphere uh because more CO2 in the atmosphere uh because more CO2 in the atmosphere uh because CO2 as you also mentioned before it's CO2 as you also mentioned before it's CO2 as you also mentioned before it's actually plant food uh you know if if actually plant food uh you know if if actually plant food uh you know if if you're if you're a greenhouse grower you you're if you're a greenhouse grower you you're if you're a greenhouse grower you know if you put in CO2 in your know if you put in CO2 in your know if you put in CO2 in your Greenhouse you actually get bigger and Greenhouse you actually get bigger and Greenhouse you actually get bigger and plumper tomatoes and and that's plumper tomatoes and and that's plumper tomatoes and and that's essentially what we're doing in the essentially what we're doing in the essentially what we're doing in the world this has overall bad consequences world this has overall bad consequences world this has overall bad consequences and and that's why we should be doing and and that's why we should be doing and and that's why we should be doing something about it but one of the good something about it but one of the good something about it but one of the good side effects is actually that the world side effects is actually that the world side effects is actually that the world is getting greener uh so we get much is getting greener uh so we get much is getting greener uh so we get much more green stuff now I don't know and more green stuff now I don't know and more green stuff now I don't know and and this is where I sort of show my and this is where I sort of show my and this is where I sort of show my Economist uh Roots uh because if you Economist uh Roots uh because if you Economist uh Roots uh because if you just measure all living stuff in uh in just measure all living stuff in uh in just measure all living stuff in uh in tons uh so in weight there's actually tons uh so in weight there's actually tons uh so in weight there's actually more living stuff than there were a more living stuff than there were a more living stuff than there were a hundred years ago because elephants and

hundred years ago because elephants and hundred years ago because elephants and uh all these other you know Big Fish and uh all these other you know Big Fish and uh all these other you know Big Fish and stuff are actually really really small stuff are actually really really small stuff are actually really really small fraction of the world fraction of the world fraction of the world yeah the fact that we have yes so we yeah the fact that we have yes so we yeah the fact that we have yes so we have an enormous amount of live stuff have an enormous amount of live stuff have an enormous amount of live stuff but that doesn't even measure it it's but that doesn't even measure it it's but that doesn't even measure it it's mostly just wood mostly just wood mostly just wood wooden green stuff that yeah that's wooden green stuff that yeah that's wooden green stuff that yeah that's dramatically increased in the world now dramatically increased in the world now dramatically increased in the world now we're still not not there from what it we're still not not there from what it we're still not not there from what it was in 1500 so we've we've still cut was in 1500 so we've we've still cut was in 1500 so we've we've still cut down the world a lot but we're actually down the world a lot but we're actually down the world a lot but we're actually making a much Greener World again not making a much Greener World again not making a much Greener World again not because we really cared or thought about because we really cared or thought about because we really cared or thought about it but just sort of a side effect of it but just sort of a side effect of it but just sort of a side effect of what we're doing I think the crucial bit what we're doing I think the crucial bit what we're doing I think the crucial bit to remember is to remember is to remember is when you're poor and you worry about when you're poor and you worry about when you're poor and you worry about what's going to happen the next day what's going to happen the next day what's going to happen the next day this is just not your main issue yeah am this is just not your main issue yeah am this is just not your main issue yeah am I killing too many large animals in the I killing too many large animals in the I killing too many large animals in the world but when you're rich and and you world but when you're rich and and you world but when you're rich and and you can actually sit in a podcast in a can actually sit in a podcast in a can actually sit in a podcast in a convenient place in Austin you can also convenient place in Austin you can also convenient place in Austin you can also start thinking about this so one of the start thinking about this so one of the start thinking about this so one of the crucial bits I think if we want to get crucial bits I think if we want to get crucial bits I think if we want to get the rest of the world to care about the the rest of the world to care about the the rest of the world to care about the environment care about climate care environment care about climate care environment care about climate care about all these other issues we really about all these other issues we really about all these other issues we really need to get them out of poverty first uh need to get them out of poverty first uh need to get them out of poverty first uh and it's a simple point that we often and it's a simple point that we often and it's a simple point that we often forget and get them connected to all forget and get them connected to all forget and get them connected to all these gifts yes these gifts yes these gifts yes um I I have these memories of um I I have these memories of um I I have these memories of well I was reporting on the next big well I was reporting on the next big well I was reporting on the next big earthquake that's going to devastate earthquake that's going to devastate earthquake that's going to devastate Istanbul in 2009 Istanbul in 2009 Istanbul in 2009 I was in a slum I was in a slum I was in a slum immigrant poor neighborhood immigrant poor neighborhood immigrant poor neighborhood and walking around with an engineer

and walking around with an engineer and walking around with an engineer pointing out to the buildings that were pointing out to the buildings that were pointing out to the buildings that were going to fall down this is all known going to fall down this is all known going to fall down this is all known there was an earthquake in 1999 and the there was an earthquake in 1999 and the there was an earthquake in 1999 and the next one's coming next one's coming next one's coming one of my advantages in covering climate one of my advantages in covering climate one of my advantages in covering climate is I've covered other kinds of disasters is I've covered other kinds of disasters is I've covered other kinds of disasters too so it keeps my contexts you know too so it keeps my contexts you know too so it keeps my contexts you know made in touch with other things we can made in touch with other things we can made in touch with other things we can do so I'm walking around and do so I'm walking around and do so I'm walking around and interviewing everybody went to the interviewing everybody went to the interviewing everybody went to the school that's being retrofit they school that's being retrofit they school that's being retrofit they actually were getting ahead of it there actually were getting ahead of it there actually were getting ahead of it there the world bank provided some funding to the world bank provided some funding to the world bank provided some funding to put in iron bars in the brick building put in iron bars in the brick building put in iron bars in the brick building and and I I met these kids and and I I met these kids and and I I met these kids um and they came when you're a um and they came when you're a um and they came when you're a journalist with a camera and stuff in a journalist with a camera and stuff in a journalist with a camera and stuff in a pad you get swarmed by kids uh mostly in pad you get swarmed by kids uh mostly in pad you get swarmed by kids uh mostly in developing countries and so these kids developing countries and so these kids developing countries and so these kids are running up to me and they weren't are running up to me and they weren't are running up to me and they weren't going like are you American or just they going like are you American or just they going like are you American or just they were saying Facebook Facebook were saying Facebook Facebook were saying Facebook Facebook and I went that's interesting and I they and I went that's interesting and I they and I went that's interesting and I they led me to their little town a little led me to their little town a little led me to their little town a little Community Center that had a bank of Community Center that had a bank of Community Center that had a bank of eight or ten pretty eight or ten pretty eight or ten pretty flimsy computers and they're all there flimsy computers and they're all there flimsy computers and they're all there playing uh Farm it was a game that was playing uh Farm it was a game that was playing uh Farm it was a game that was hot at that time on Facebook hot at that time on Facebook hot at that time on Facebook Farmville Farmville yeah and and you Farmville Farmville yeah and and you Farmville Farmville yeah and and you know my son back in the Hudson Valley I know my son back in the Hudson Valley I know my son back in the Hudson Valley I remember him playing it and and I remember him playing it and and I remember him playing it and and I thought wow that is so freaking cool thought wow that is so freaking cool thought wow that is so freaking cool that these kids and actually I became that these kids and actually I became that these kids and actually I became Facebook friends with a couple of them Facebook friends with a couple of them Facebook friends with a couple of them afterwards we traded our and I thought afterwards we traded our and I thought afterwards we traded our and I thought back to my youth when back to my youth when back to my youth when we had pen pals I would write a letter we had pen pals I would write a letter we had pen pals I would write a letter to a kid in West Cameroon to a kid in West Cameroon to a kid in West Cameroon and he would write back and it took and he would write back and it took and he would write back and it took weeks and it was a crinkly letter and I weeks and it was a crinkly letter and I weeks and it was a crinkly letter and I never met him never met him never met him and now you can kind of connect with and now you can kind of connect with and now you can kind of connect with people and and that all through my

people and and that all through my people and and that all through my blogging you know at the New York Times blogging you know at the New York Times blogging you know at the New York Times I was doing my regular reporting but I I was doing my regular reporting but I I was doing my regular reporting but I still launched a Blog in 2007 called dot still launched a Blog in 2007 called dot still launched a Blog in 2007 called dot Earth Earth Earth which was all about what you were just which was all about what you were just which was all about what you were just describing the newest fear the connected describing the newest fear the connected describing the newest fear the connected world that's a term from uh these two world that's a term from uh these two world that's a term from uh these two earliest 20 a Russian guy in early earliest 20 a Russian guy in early earliest 20 a Russian guy in early fernatsuki and French Theologian and fernatsuki and French Theologian and fernatsuki and French Theologian and scientist which is so interesting scientist which is so interesting scientist which is so interesting tayard de charda they had this idea in tayard de charda they had this idea in tayard de charda they had this idea in the early 20th century that we're the early 20th century that we're the early 20th century that we're creating a planet of the Mind creating a planet of the Mind creating a planet of the Mind that that human intelligence that that human intelligence that that human intelligence can Foster can Foster can Foster a better Earth and I just became smitten a better Earth and I just became smitten a better Earth and I just became smitten with that especially meeting kids in with that especially meeting kids in with that especially meeting kids in Istanbul slums who are on Facebook Istanbul slums who are on Facebook Istanbul slums who are on Facebook looking for connectedness what can you looking for connectedness what can you looking for connectedness what can you do with these tools which is what drives do with these tools which is what drives do with these tools which is what drives me you know with my work now and me you know with my work now and me you know with my work now and um but then there are these um but then there are these um but then there are these counterweight counter currents that counterweight counter currents that counterweight counter currents that if the connectedness can cut back you if the connectedness can cut back you if the connectedness can cut back you know it allowed Al Qaeda to recruit use know it allowed Al Qaeda to recruit use know it allowed Al Qaeda to recruit use decapitation videos to recruit decapitation videos to recruit decapitation videos to recruit distributed distributed distributed disaffected young people into extremism disaffected young people into extremism disaffected young people into extremism and you know there's lots of these and you know there's lots of these and you know there's lots of these systems are not they're just like every systems are not they're just like every systems are not they're just like every other tool right they're just for good other tool right they're just for good other tool right they're just for good or ill and and the efficiency thing the or ill and and the efficiency thing the or ill and and the efficiency thing the econ the economics econ the economics econ the economics of the world which I also wrote about a of the world which I also wrote about a of the world which I also wrote about a little bit little bit little bit you know late 20th century it was so you know late 20th century it was so you know late 20th century it was so cool that everything became so efficient cool that everything became so efficient cool that everything became so efficient that our supply chains are just in time

that our supply chains are just in time that our supply chains are just in time manufacturing you know manufacturing you know manufacturing you know getting the the stuff from where the getting the the stuff from where the getting the the stuff from where the sources of the material are to the car sources of the material are to the car sources of the material are to the car factory and to get the car to the floor factory and to get the car to the floor factory and to get the car to the floor just in time for someone to buy it and just in time for someone to buy it and just in time for someone to buy it and that and everyone got totally sucked in that and everyone got totally sucked in that and everyone got totally sucked in by that including me it's a great you by that including me it's a great you by that including me it's a great you know super efficient cheaper and then know super efficient cheaper and then know super efficient cheaper and then covid hit and the whole supply chain covid hit and the whole supply chain covid hit and the whole supply chain concept crumbled and one of the big concept crumbled and one of the big concept crumbled and one of the big lessons there hopefully and this is lessons there hopefully and this is lessons there hopefully and this is relevant to sustainability generally relevant to sustainability generally relevant to sustainability generally is efficiency matters but but resilience is efficiency matters but but resilience is efficiency matters but but resilience matters too and resilience is matters too and resilience is matters too and resilience is inefficient you need redundancy inefficient you need redundancy inefficient you need redundancy or or or or a variety of options right which is or a variety of options right which is or a variety of options right which is not what corporate companies think about not what corporate companies think about not what corporate companies think about which is not what if you're only focused which is not what if you're only focused which is not what if you're only focused on a bottom line short-term timeline on a bottom line short-term timeline on a bottom line short-term timeline those disruptions are not what you're those disruptions are not what you're those disruptions are not what you're thinking about you're still thinking thinking about you're still thinking thinking about you're still thinking about can we get that widget here just about can we get that widget here just about can we get that widget here just in time for this thing to happen and in time for this thing to happen and in time for this thing to happen and then on we go then on we go then on we go so it's kind of I love the notosphere so it's kind of I love the notosphere so it's kind of I love the notosphere this newest fear this newest fear this newest fear idea the connectedness is fantastic oh idea the connectedness is fantastic oh idea the connectedness is fantastic oh another thing like in the early 90s another thing like in the early 90s another thing like in the early 90s when I wrote my first book on global when I wrote my first book on global when I wrote my first book on global warming warming warming it was for an exhibition at the Museum it was for an exhibition at the Museum it was for an exhibition at the Museum of Natural History of Natural History of Natural History um the environmental defense fund was um the environmental defense fund was um the environmental defense fund was involved they were like a partner involved they were like a partner involved they were like a partner one of these long-standing environmental one of these long-standing environmental one of these long-standing environmental groups and they're very old-fashioned groups and they're very old-fashioned groups and they're very old-fashioned it's mostly lawyers really just using it's mostly lawyers really just using it's mostly lawyers really just using the Clean Air Act Clean Water Act to the Clean Air Act Clean Water Act to the Clean Air Act Clean Water Act to litigate against pollution litigate against pollution litigate against pollution and now EDF is vastly bigger and now EDF is vastly bigger and now EDF is vastly bigger and they're actually this coming year and they're actually this coming year and they're actually this coming year they're launching a satellite a an

they're launching a satellite a an they're launching a satellite a an environmental group environmental group environmental group is launching methane sat and it's is launching methane sat and it's is launching methane sat and it's providing a view an independent view of providing a view an independent view of providing a view an independent view of where there's this gas where there's this gas where there's this gas you know same thing natural gas is you know same thing natural gas is you know same thing natural gas is basically methane so if you have a leak basically methane so if you have a leak basically methane so if you have a leak whether it's in Siberia or in Oklahoma whether it's in Siberia or in Oklahoma whether it's in Siberia or in Oklahoma you can cross-reference you can ground you can cross-reference you can ground you can cross-reference you can ground true you can identify the hot spot you true you can identify the hot spot you true you can identify the hot spot you can can can know where the problem is to fix in so know where the problem is to fix in so know where the problem is to fix in so many ways and that's just one example many ways and that's just one example many ways and that's just one example I'm like if somebody told me in 1993 I'm like if somebody told me in 1993 I'm like if somebody told me in 1993 that EDF was going to launch it methane that EDF was going to launch it methane that EDF was going to launch it methane satellite it would have laughed out loud satellite it would have laughed out loud satellite it would have laughed out loud so technology plays a huge role so technology plays a huge role so technology plays a huge role if it's kind of you know employed with if it's kind of you know employed with if it's kind of you know employed with these the bigger vision and Leadership these the bigger vision and Leadership these the bigger vision and Leadership so Bjorn you wrote so Bjorn you wrote so Bjorn you wrote one of the books you wrote the most one of the books you wrote the most one of the books you wrote the most recent one called false alarm how recent one called false alarm how recent one called false alarm how climate change Panic costs us trillions climate change Panic costs us trillions climate change Panic costs us trillions hurts the poor and fails to fix the hurts the poor and fails to fix the hurts the poor and fails to fix the planet planet planet good title by the way very intense makes good title by the way very intense makes good title by the way very intense makes me want to read it what is likely the me want to read it what is likely the me want to read it what is likely the worst effect of climate change first let worst effect of climate change first let worst effect of climate change first let me just uh my my editor actually hated me just uh my my editor actually hated me just uh my my editor actually hated the subtitle because it gives away the the subtitle because it gives away the the subtitle because it gives away the whole book basically it tells you what whole book basically it tells you what whole book basically it tells you what the book tries to make I I think you the book tries to make I I think you the book tries to make I I think you know that's exactly what it should be know that's exactly what it should be know that's exactly what it should be it's about getting this conversation out it's about getting this conversation out it's about getting this conversation out in the in in the public sphere so the in the in in the public sphere so the in the in in the public sphere so the worst thing that climate change can do worst thing that climate change can do worst thing that climate change can do is like the worst thing that anything is like the worst thing that anything is like the worst thing that anything can do is that it wipes out everything can do is that it wipes out everything can do is that it wipes out everything and we all die so it's it's not like you and we all die so it's it's not like you and we all die so it's it's not like you know if you're just looking for worst know if you're just looking for worst know if you're just looking for worst case outcomes uh you know anything can

case outcomes uh you know anything can case outcomes uh you know anything can get to the worst case outcome get to the worst case outcome get to the worst case outcome um imagine if we uh suggest what's the um imagine if we uh suggest what's the um imagine if we uh suggest what's the worst thing that could happen from HIV worst thing that could happen from HIV worst thing that could happen from HIV it breaks down of a one or more African it breaks down of a one or more African it breaks down of a one or more African States because we don't fix it and then States because we don't fix it and then States because we don't fix it and then you get sort of uh biological warfare you get sort of uh biological warfare you get sort of uh biological warfare and terrorism throwing that in the mix and terrorism throwing that in the mix and terrorism throwing that in the mix and then you get someone who makes a and then you get someone who makes a and then you get someone who makes a virus and kills the whole world you know virus and kills the whole world you know virus and kills the whole world you know you can make worst case scenarios for you can make worst case scenarios for you can make worst case scenarios for everything so let's just call it I get everything so let's just call it I get everything so let's just call it I get the point and sorry for an interruption the point and sorry for an interruption the point and sorry for an interruption and and I appreciate worst case analysis and and I appreciate worst case analysis and and I appreciate worst case analysis because I'm I am fundamentally computer because I'm I am fundamentally computer because I'm I am fundamentally computer scientist and that was the thing that scientist and that was the thing that scientist and that was the thing that defined the discipline of the to measure defined the discipline of the to measure defined the discipline of the to measure the quality of the algorithm you measure the quality of the algorithm you measure the quality of the algorithm you measure what is its worth worst case performance what is its worth worst case performance what is its worth worst case performance that's the Big O notation that's how you that's the Big O notation that's how you that's the Big O notation that's how you discuss algorithms what is the worst discuss algorithms what is the worst discuss algorithms what is the worst possible thing uh in terms of possible thing uh in terms of possible thing uh in terms of performance this thing can do but for performance this thing can do but for performance this thing can do but for climate change let's even go crazy what climate change let's even go crazy what climate change let's even go crazy what is exactly the worst case scenario for is exactly the worst case scenario for is exactly the worst case scenario for climate change because uh climate change because uh climate change because uh I have to be honest and say I haven't I have to be honest and say I haven't I have to be honest and say I haven't really paid it deep attention I just really paid it deep attention I just really paid it deep attention I just have a lot of colleagues who think about have a lot of colleagues who think about have a lot of colleagues who think about climate and so on and there's a kind of climate and so on and there's a kind of climate and so on and there's a kind of in the alarmism there was a sense what in the alarmism there was a sense what in the alarmism there was a sense what this is this is a very serious problem this is this is a very serious problem this is this is a very serious problem and then the sentence would never finish and then the sentence would never finish and then the sentence would never finish what exactly is the problem well the what exactly is the problem well the what exactly is the problem well the extinction of the human species okay extinction of the human species okay extinction of the human species okay with a virus I understand how that could with a virus I understand how that could with a virus I understand how that could possibly happen what is the mechanism by possibly happen what is the mechanism by possibly happen what is the mechanism by which the human species becomes extinct

which the human species becomes extinct which the human species becomes extinct because of climate change because of climate change because of climate change I'm not sure I would want to be able to I'm not sure I would want to be able to I'm not sure I would want to be able to argue that because it really requires argue that because it really requires argue that because it really requires you to have sort of very very extreme you to have sort of very very extreme you to have sort of very very extreme parameter choices all down the line and parameter choices all down the line and parameter choices all down the line and so it's more you know it's this kind of so it's more you know it's this kind of so it's more you know it's this kind of idea that we that we hit some of these idea that we that we hit some of these idea that we that we hit some of these unexpected uh outcomes so for instance unexpected uh outcomes so for instance unexpected uh outcomes so for instance uh the Western Arctic ice sheet uh melts uh the Western Arctic ice sheet uh melts uh the Western Arctic ice sheet uh melts really really quickly it doesn't look really really quickly it doesn't look really really quickly it doesn't look like that can happen really really like that can happen really really like that can happen really really quickly but let's just you know say that quickly but let's just you know say that quickly but let's just you know say that this could happen within 100 years or this could happen within 100 years or this could happen within 100 years or something so we basically get what something so we basically get what something so we basically get what um seven meters what is that 20 feet of um seven meters what is that 20 feet of um seven meters what is that 20 feet of sea level rise uh that will be a real sea level rise uh that will be a real sea level rise uh that will be a real challenge to a lot of places around the challenge to a lot of places around the challenge to a lot of places around the world this would have you know world this would have you know world this would have you know significant costs uh it's likely and you significant costs uh it's likely and you significant costs uh it's likely and you know there's actually been a study know there's actually been a study know there's actually been a study that's tried to estimate could we deal that's tried to estimate could we deal that's tried to estimate could we deal with that and the this the short answer with that and the this the short answer with that and the this the short answer is yes if you're fairly well off you is yes if you're fairly well off you is yes if you're fairly well off you know if you're a Holland you can know if you're a Holland you can know if you're a Holland you can definitely deal with it it's also likely definitely deal with it it's also likely definitely deal with it it's also likely that most developing countries are going that most developing countries are going that most developing countries are going to be much closer to Holland towards the to be much closer to Holland towards the to be much closer to Holland towards the end of the century because they'll be end of the century because they'll be end of the century because they'll be much richer so they can probably handle much richer so they can probably handle much richer so they can probably handle it but it will be a real challenge may I it but it will be a real challenge may I it but it will be a real challenge may I ask a dumb question yeah what happens ask a dumb question yeah what happens ask a dumb question yeah what happens when the C level rises exactly what is when the C level rises exactly what is when the C level rises exactly what is the painful aspect of that the painful aspect of that the painful aspect of that it is that all of your current it is that all of your current it is that all of your current infrastructure and a lot of coastal infrastructure and a lot of coastal infrastructure and a lot of coastal cities around the world that are cities around the world that are cities around the world that are literally built on you know Jakarta is a literally built on you know Jakarta is a literally built on you know Jakarta is a good example that are literally built on good example that are literally built on good example that are literally built on the uh just you know inches above the the uh just you know inches above the the uh just you know inches above the sea level uh if if you then get a sea sea level uh if if you then get a sea sea level uh if if you then get a sea level rise they'll rise say what would level rise they'll rise say what would level rise they'll rise say what would uh 20 feet if that would be like a third

uh 20 feet if that would be like a third uh 20 feet if that would be like a third or a fourth of a of a foot every year or a fourth of a of a foot every year or a fourth of a of a foot every year yeah kind of thing yeah I see no yeah kind of thing yeah I see no yeah kind of thing yeah I see no evidence that that's even well hold on a evidence that that's even well hold on a evidence that that's even well hold on a second let's we're not talking about second let's we're not talking about second let's we're not talking about evidence no talking about worst case evidence no talking about worst case evidence no talking about worst case analysis and algorithms and and so so analysis and algorithms and and so so analysis and algorithms and and so so basically you would see your basically you would see your basically you would see your infrastructure all all your stuff very infrastructure all all your stuff very infrastructure all all your stuff very quickly being very very challenged and quickly being very very challenged and quickly being very very challenged and you basically have to put up huge sea you basically have to put up huge sea you basically have to put up huge sea walls or uh migrate out of that very walls or uh migrate out of that very walls or uh migrate out of that very quickly well very quickly as in in 50 quickly well very quickly as in in 50 quickly well very quickly as in in 50 years or something right right so like I years or something right right so like I years or something right right so like I is that as a human species is that as a human species is that as a human species were not able to respond to that kind of were not able to respond to that kind of were not able to respond to that kind of course and and look again the point here course and and look again the point here course and and look again the point here is then there's there's a lot of other is then there's there's a lot of other is then there's there's a lot of other arguments and I I should just you know arguments and I I should just you know arguments and I I should just you know put the disclaimer this is not what I put the disclaimer this is not what I put the disclaimer this is not what I think is correct but you know you're think is correct but you know you're think is correct but you know you're asking me what's the what's the worst asking me what's the what's the worst asking me what's the what's the worst case outcome that you have uh uh so most case outcome that you have uh uh so most case outcome that you have uh uh so most of global warming is really about that of global warming is really about that of global warming is really about that we we're used to one way of doing things we we're used to one way of doing things we we're used to one way of doing things so you know we we live in Jakarta so you know we we live in Jakarta so you know we we live in Jakarta because it's right next to the Sea we're because it's right next to the Sea we're because it's right next to the Sea we're used to the Sea being at this level uh used to the Sea being at this level uh used to the Sea being at this level uh we grow our crops because we're used to we grow our crops because we're used to we grow our crops because we're used to you know you grow a corn here you grow you know you grow a corn here you grow you know you grow a corn here you grow wheat here because we're used to that wheat here because we're used to that wheat here because we're used to that where the precipitation and the uh where the precipitation and the uh where the precipitation and the uh temperature is the right for this kind temperature is the right for this kind temperature is the right for this kind of crop if this changes and this is the of crop if this changes and this is the of crop if this changes and this is the same thing with with you know with same thing with with you know with same thing with with you know with houses if it gets colder if it gets houses if it gets colder if it gets houses if it gets colder if it gets warmer it's suddenly uncomfortable warmer it's suddenly uncomfortable warmer it's suddenly uncomfortable because you've built your house wrong so because you've built your house wrong so because you've built your house wrong so our infrastructure will be wrong if the our infrastructure will be wrong if the our infrastructure will be wrong if the world changes and that's what climate

world changes and that's what climate world changes and that's what climate change is at a large scale yes and so so change is at a large scale yes and so so change is at a large scale yes and so so this is a problem in most of these this is a problem in most of these this is a problem in most of these sentences but if you then sort of take sentences but if you then sort of take sentences but if you then sort of take it to the extreme and say well imagine it to the extreme and say well imagine it to the extreme and say well imagine that you're going to get a huge sea that you're going to get a huge sea that you're going to get a huge sea level rise imagine that you're going to level rise imagine that you're going to level rise imagine that you're going to get a very different sort of get a very different sort of get a very different sort of precipitation for instance the the uh precipitation for instance the the uh precipitation for instance the the uh what is it the rain season rain Monsoon what is it the rain season rain Monsoon what is it the rain season rain Monsoon and and uh and and the Indian and and uh and and the Indian and and uh and and the Indian subcontinent uh changes uh dramatically subcontinent uh changes uh dramatically subcontinent uh changes uh dramatically that could affect a lot of Agriculture that could affect a lot of Agriculture that could affect a lot of Agriculture and make it really hard to imagine that and make it really hard to imagine that and make it really hard to imagine that you could feed India well there there you could feed India well there there you could feed India well there there are these kinds of things where you can are these kinds of things where you can are these kinds of things where you can imagine uh and then that this would be imagine uh and then that this would be imagine uh and then that this would be very difficult to deal with and then if very difficult to deal with and then if very difficult to deal with and then if you add all of it up you could possibly you add all of it up you could possibly you add all of it up you could possibly get sort of a system collapse because get sort of a system collapse because get sort of a system collapse because you know you just have too many problems you know you just have too many problems you know you just have too many problems and is it possible to model those kinds and is it possible to model those kinds and is it possible to model those kinds of things so what I understand is the of things so what I understand is the of things so what I understand is the sea level rise itself sea level rise itself sea level rise itself isn't the destructive thing it's it's isn't the destructive thing it's it's isn't the destructive thing it's it's the fact that it creates migration the fact that it creates migration the fact that it creates migration patterns and human tension battle over patterns and human tension battle over patterns and human tension battle over resources and since start to get these resources and since start to get these resources and since start to get these these human things human conflict so the these human things human conflict so the these human things human conflict so the big negative impact won't be necessary big negative impact won't be necessary big negative impact won't be necessary from the fact they have to move your from the fact they have to move your from the fact they have to move your house it's the fact that once you move house it's the fact that once you move house it's the fact that once you move your house that means something else your house that means something else your house that means something else down the line and it's a secondary down the line and it's a secondary down the line and it's a secondary tertiary effects that can have tertiary effects that can have tertiary effects that can have potentially towards military conflict potentially towards military conflict potentially towards military conflict can have this destabilize entire can have this destabilize entire can have this destabilize entire economies all that kind of stuff because economies all that kind of stuff because economies all that kind of stuff because of the migration power is it possible to of the migration power is it possible to of the migration power is it possible to model those kinds of things so there are

model those kinds of things so there are model those kinds of things so there are people who looked at this and and people who looked at this and and people who looked at this and and surprisingly again you know most people surprisingly again you know most people surprisingly again you know most people will move within their country for a lot will move within their country for a lot will move within their country for a lot of different reasons but you know mainly of different reasons but you know mainly of different reasons but you know mainly language and and political structure you language and and political structure you language and and political structure you have your money you have your have your money you have your have your money you have your relationships there so it's not like relationships there so it's not like relationships there so it's not like we're going to see these big moves you we're going to see these big moves you we're going to see these big moves you know from uh from uh from the southern know from uh from uh from the southern know from uh from uh from the southern Mexico and and Central America up to the Mexico and and Central America up to the Mexico and and Central America up to the U.S or from Africa up to the EU that's U.S or from Africa up to the EU that's U.S or from Africa up to the EU that's not predominantly because of climate not predominantly because of climate not predominantly because of climate that's because there's a lot of you know that's because there's a lot of you know that's because there's a lot of you know there's a lot of welfare opportunity uh there's a lot of welfare opportunity uh there's a lot of welfare opportunity uh you can make your life much much better you can make your life much much better you can make your life much much better you can become much more productive you can become much more productive you can become much more productive octave if you move into a richer into a octave if you move into a richer into a octave if you move into a richer into a richer country so so yes there are these richer country so so yes there are these richer country so so yes there are these issues again uh you're asking me for issues again uh you're asking me for issues again uh you're asking me for sort of what is it that could really sort of what is it that could really sort of what is it that could really sort of break down the world I think the sort of break down the world I think the sort of break down the world I think the the fundamental point is to recognize the fundamental point is to recognize the fundamental point is to recognize that it's not like we haven't dealt with that it's not like we haven't dealt with that it's not like we haven't dealt with huge challenges in the past and we've huge challenges in the past and we've huge challenges in the past and we've dealt with them really well so just one dealt with them really well so just one dealt with them really well so just one fun thing I I encourage everyone to just fun thing I I encourage everyone to just fun thing I I encourage everyone to just look that up on on Wikipedia the rising look that up on on Wikipedia the rising look that up on on Wikipedia the rising of Chicago of Chicago of Chicago so in the uh in the 1850s Chicago is a so in the uh in the 1850s Chicago is a so in the uh in the 1850s Chicago is a terribly uh uh uh dirty place and they terribly uh uh uh dirty place and they terribly uh uh uh dirty place and they didn't have good sewers and so they didn't have good sewers and so they didn't have good sewers and so they decided and we can't really make up all decided and we can't really make up all decided and we can't really make up all my they decided to raise Chicago one to my they decided to raise Chicago one to my they decided to raise Chicago one to two feet two feet two feet and so they simply took one block at a and so they simply took one block at a and so they simply took one block at a time they put like 50 000 Jacks time they put like 50 000 Jacks time they put like 50 000 Jacks underneath a building and they would underneath a building and they would underneath a building and they would just raise the building and then they'd just raise the building and then they'd just raise the building and then they'd go on to the next building they race all go on to the next building they race all go on to the next building they race all of Chicago one or two feet this is you

of Chicago one or two feet this is you of Chicago one or two feet this is you know almost 200 years ago of course we know almost 200 years ago of course we know almost 200 years ago of course we will be able to deal with these things will be able to deal with these things will be able to deal with these things I'm not saying it'd be it'll be fun or I'm not saying it'd be it'll be fun or I'm not saying it'd be it'll be fun or that it'll be cheap of course we would that it'll be cheap of course we would that it'll be cheap of course we would rather not have to deal with this but rather not have to deal with this but rather not have to deal with this but we're a very inventive species and so we're a very inventive species and so we're a very inventive species and so it's very unlikely that we'll not be it's very unlikely that we'll not be it's very unlikely that we'll not be able to what about able to what about able to what about covid pandemic just said hold my beer covid pandemic just said hold my beer covid pandemic just said hold my beer uh the response of human civilization to uh the response of human civilization to uh the response of human civilization to the covert pandemic the covert pandemic the covert pandemic seems to have not seems to have not seems to have not they didn't find the carjacks yeah she they didn't find the carjacks yeah she they didn't find the carjacks yeah she seems to have not been as effective as I seems to have not been as effective as I seems to have not been as effective as I would have hoped uh for uh as a human would have hoped uh for uh as a human would have hoped uh for uh as a human that believes in the in the basic that believes in the in the basic that believes in the in the basic competence of leadership and all that competence of leadership and all that competence of leadership and all that kind of stuff it seems like given the kind of stuff it seems like given the kind of stuff it seems like given the the code pandemic luckily did not turn the code pandemic luckily did not turn the code pandemic luckily did not turn out to be a pandemic that's that would out to be a pandemic that's that would out to be a pandemic that's that would eradicate most of the human species eradicate most of the human species eradicate most of the human species which is something you always have to which is something you always have to which is something you always have to consider and worry about that I would consider and worry about that I would consider and worry about that I would have hoped we would have less economic have hoped we would have less economic have hoped we would have less economic impact and we would respond more impact and we would respond more impact and we would respond more effectively and effectively and effectively and um in terms of policy in terms of um in terms of policy in terms of um in terms of policy in terms of socially medically all that kind of socially medically all that kind of socially medically all that kind of stuff so if the if the cover pandemic stuff so if the if the cover pandemic stuff so if the if the cover pandemic brought the world to its knees then what brought the world to its knees then what brought the world to its knees then what does does does a sea level rise so I think there's a a sea level rise so I think there's a a sea level rise so I think there's a different kind of thing that happened in different kind of thing that happened in different kind of thing that happened in in the in the covet so politicians and a in the in the covet so politicians and a in the in the covet so politicians and a lot of politicians I think made lot of politicians I think made lot of politicians I think made certainly sub-optimal decisions but I certainly sub-optimal decisions but I certainly sub-optimal decisions but I also find the fact that we actually also find the fact that we actually also find the fact that we actually managed to get a vaccine in a year uh we

managed to get a vaccine in a year uh we managed to get a vaccine in a year uh we should not be uh you know sort of should not be uh you know sort of should not be uh you know sort of unaware of the fact that yes we did a unaware of the fact that yes we did a unaware of the fact that yes we did a lot of stupid stuff and a lot of people lot of stupid stuff and a lot of people lot of stupid stuff and a lot of people were really really annoyed but were really really annoyed but were really really annoyed but fundamentally we fixed this uh we could fundamentally we fixed this uh we could fundamentally we fixed this uh we could have done it better and pretty I mean I have done it better and pretty I mean I have done it better and pretty I mean I I uh rode through uh the covet pandemic I uh rode through uh the covet pandemic I uh rode through uh the covet pandemic in southern Sweden uh so uh and uh yes in southern Sweden uh so uh and uh yes in southern Sweden uh so uh and uh yes we we can have that whole conversation we we can have that whole conversation we we can have that whole conversation it was certainly a much easier to live it was certainly a much easier to live it was certainly a much easier to live there than than many other places but there than than many other places but there than than many other places but the fundamental point was we actually the fundamental point was we actually the fundamental point was we actually fixed it so yes we'll do and we'll do fixed it so yes we'll do and we'll do fixed it so yes we'll do and we'll do that with climate we'll make a lot of that with climate we'll make a lot of that with climate we'll make a lot of bad decisions and we'll waste a lot of bad decisions and we'll waste a lot of bad decisions and we'll waste a lot of money like we do with all other problems money like we do with all other problems money like we do with all other problems but it's are we going to fix this yeah but it's are we going to fix this yeah but it's are we going to fix this yeah can you add on to that uncomfortable can you add on to that uncomfortable can you add on to that uncomfortable discussion of what's the worst thing discussion of what's the worst thing discussion of what's the worst thing that could possibly happen I'm not that could possibly happen I'm not that could possibly happen I'm not worried about the sea level rise worried about the sea level rise worried about the sea level rise component certainly not nearly as much component certainly not nearly as much component certainly not nearly as much as the Heat and disruption of as the Heat and disruption of as the Heat and disruption of Agriculture patterns and water supplies Agriculture patterns and water supplies Agriculture patterns and water supplies and a lot of it relates to and a lot of it relates to and a lot of it relates to again path dependency and history again path dependency and history again path dependency and history farmers are the heroes of humanity all farmers are the heroes of humanity all farmers are the heroes of humanity all through history because they're through history because they're through history because they're incredibly adaptable incredibly adaptable incredibly adaptable if you give them access to resources uh if you give them access to resources uh if you give them access to resources uh in some cases it's just crop insurance in some cases it's just crop insurance in some cases it's just crop insurance which is really basically still which is really basically still which is really basically still impossible to get in big chunks of impossible to get in big chunks of impossible to get in big chunks of Africa to get you through those hard Africa to get you through those hard Africa to get you through those hard spots but but the heat issue is the one spots but but the heat issue is the one spots but but the heat issue is the one that's most this most base basic element that's most this most base basic element that's most this most base basic element related to global warming from CO2 related to global warming from CO2 related to global warming from CO2 buildup is uh hotter heat waves there's buildup is uh hotter heat waves there's buildup is uh hotter heat waves there's still some lack of evidence of

still some lack of evidence of still some lack of evidence of the intensification but the duration and the intensification but the duration and the intensification but the duration and and that's really matters for heat is and that's really matters for heat is and that's really matters for heat is how many days how many days how many days seems to be very powerfully linked to seems to be very powerfully linked to seems to be very powerfully linked to global warming and uh so how many people global warming and uh so how many people global warming and uh so how many people die as a result of that is important so die as a result of that is important so die as a result of that is important so we're talking about we're talking about we're talking about maybe you can also educate me what's the maybe you can also educate me what's the maybe you can also educate me what's the average projection for the next average projection for the next average projection for the next 100 years as the temperature rises at 100 years as the temperature rises at 100 years as the temperature rises at two two degrees Celsius well yeah two two degrees Celsius well yeah two two degrees Celsius well yeah although this gets us into the modeling although this gets us into the modeling although this gets us into the modeling realm um you're you're assuming you have realm um you're you're assuming you have realm um you're you're assuming you have to assume different emissions to assume different emissions to assume different emissions possibilities possibilities possibilities you have to assume we still don't know you have to assume we still don't know you have to assume we still don't know the basic physics like how many clouds the basic physics like how many clouds the basic physics like how many clouds form form form in a warming climate and how that in a warming climate and how that in a warming climate and how that relates to limiting warming there are relates to limiting warming there are relates to limiting warming there are aspects of the warming the fundamental aspects of the warming the fundamental aspects of the warming the fundamental warming question there's still deeply warming question there's still deeply warming question there's still deeply uncertain but the debate is like two uncertain but the debate is like two uncertain but the debate is like two three or four Celsius it's in that rate three or four Celsius it's in that rate three or four Celsius it's in that rate but the thing is but the thing is but the thing is all of those are bad for this is an all of those are bad for this is an all of those are bad for this is an educational question sure it uh doesn't educational question sure it uh doesn't educational question sure it uh doesn't seem like that much from a weather seem like that much from a weather seem like that much from a weather perspective if you just turn up the AC perspective if you just turn up the AC perspective if you just turn up the AC and so on in your own personal home uh and so on in your own personal home uh and so on in your own personal home uh but it is from a Global Perspective a but it is from a Global Perspective a but it is from a Global Perspective a huge impact on agriculture well yeah and huge impact on agriculture well yeah and huge impact on agriculture well yeah and and getting back to sea level and and getting back to sea level and and getting back to sea level and Glaciers the the melting point of ice is Glaciers the the melting point of ice is Glaciers the the melting point of ice is a is a number yeah and so if you pass a is a number yeah and so if you pass a is a number yeah and so if you pass that number things change start to that number things change start to that number things change start to change what became known about change what became known about change what became known about Antarctica and Greenland more is that Antarctica and Greenland more is that Antarctica and Greenland more is that it's ocean temperature

it's ocean temperature it's ocean temperature the the sea water in and around and the the sea water in and around and the the sea water in and around and under these ice sheets because it kind under these ice sheets because it kind under these ice sheets because it kind of gets under parts of Antarctica is of gets under parts of Antarctica is of gets under parts of Antarctica is what's driving the Dynamics that could what's driving the Dynamics that could what's driving the Dynamics that could lead to more abrupt change more than air lead to more abrupt change more than air lead to more abrupt change more than air temperature glaciers these big ice temperature glaciers these big ice temperature glaciers these big ice sheets live or die based on how much sheets live or die based on how much sheets live or die based on how much snow falls and how much ice leaves every snow falls and how much ice leaves every snow falls and how much ice leaves every year and year and year and I was up on the Greenland ice sheet I was up on the Greenland ice sheet I was up on the Greenland ice sheet 2004. 2004. 2004. and written about it forever since then and written about it forever since then and written about it forever since then you know it's it's the same amount of you know it's it's the same amount of you know it's it's the same amount of water that's in the Gulf of Mexico as if water that's in the Gulf of Mexico as if water that's in the Gulf of Mexico as if you know God or some great force came you know God or some great force came you know God or some great force came down and Flash flows the Gulf of Mexico down and Flash flows the Gulf of Mexico down and Flash flows the Gulf of Mexico and plunked it up on land that's that's and plunked it up on land that's that's and plunked it up on land that's that's the ice sheet it's a lot of water that's the ice sheet it's a lot of water that's the ice sheet it's a lot of water that's 23 feet if sea level rise if you but 23 feet if sea level rise if you but 23 feet if sea level rise if you but we're not going to melt at all and the we're not going to melt at all and the we're not going to melt at all and the pace at which that pace at which that pace at which that erosion begins erosion begins erosion begins and becomes sort of a runaway train and becomes sort of a runaway train and becomes sort of a runaway train is still is still is still not well understood not well understood not well understood that changed from like a manageable that changed from like a manageable that changed from like a manageable level of sea level rise from these ice level of sea level rise from these ice level of sea level rise from these ice sheets to something that becomes truly sheets to something that becomes truly sheets to something that becomes truly Unstoppable or that has these Unstoppable or that has these Unstoppable or that has these discontinuities where you get a lot more discontinuities where you get a lot more discontinuities where you get a lot more of a sudden isn't to me it's in the of a sudden isn't to me it's in the of a sudden isn't to me it's in the realm of realm of realm of what I've taken a calling known what I've taken a calling known what I've taken a calling known unknowables like don't count on another unknowables like don't count on another unknowables like don't count on another ipcc report magically including science ipcc report magically including science ipcc report magically including science that says aha now we know it's going to that says aha now we know it's going to that says aha now we know it's going to be five feet by 2100 because learning be five feet by 2100 because learning be five feet by 2100 because learning there's a lot of negative learning in there's a lot of negative learning in there's a lot of negative learning in science this may be true in your body of

science this may be true in your body of science this may be true in your body of science too science too science too um there's a guy named Jeremy bassis um there's a guy named Jeremy bassis um there's a guy named Jeremy bassis b-a-s-s-i-s b-a-s-s-i-s b-a-s-s-i-s who wrote a paper about the this West who wrote a paper about the this West who wrote a paper about the this West antic the the idea that you could get antic the the idea that you could get antic the the idea that you could get this sudden cliff this sudden cliff this sudden cliff breakdown of these ice shelves around breakdown of these ice shelves around breakdown of these ice shelves around Antarctica leading to Rapid sea level Antarctica leading to Rapid sea level Antarctica leading to Rapid sea level rise he did more modeling in physics and rise he did more modeling in physics and rise he did more modeling in physics and it turns out that you end up with it's a it turns out that you end up with it's a it turns out that you end up with it's a much more Progressive and self-limiting much more Progressive and self-limiting much more Progressive and self-limiting phenomenon phenomenon phenomenon but those papers don't get any attention but those papers don't get any attention but those papers don't get any attention in the media because they're not scary in the media because they're not scary in the media because they're not scary they're not scary and they're sort of they're not scary and they're sort of they're not scary and they're sort of after the fact you know just this past after the fact you know just this past after the fact you know just this past year there's been this cycle around uh year there's been this cycle around uh year there's been this cycle around uh collapse the word collapse collapse the word collapse collapse the word collapse and Antarctic Antarctic Ice um it and Antarctic Antarctic Ice um it and Antarctic Antarctic Ice um it started uh actually several years ago started uh actually several years ago started uh actually several years ago with the idea that this the West with the idea that this the West with the idea that this the West Antarctic ice sheet is particularly Antarctic ice sheet is particularly Antarctic ice sheet is particularly vulnerable vulnerable vulnerable and some paper everyone's the science and some paper everyone's the science and some paper everyone's the science Community like the birds we were talking Community like the birds we were talking Community like the birds we were talking about flux to it and some high profile about flux to it and some high profile about flux to it and some high profile papers are written papers are written papers are written and then a deeper inquiry reveals that and then a deeper inquiry reveals that and then a deeper inquiry reveals that you know it's more complicated than that you know it's more complicated than that you know it's more complicated than that and we the journalists the media pundits and we the journalists the media pundits and we the journalists the media pundits don't pay attention to that stuff don't pay attention to that stuff don't pay attention to that stuff so and actually so and actually so and actually which is why I've started to develop which is why I've started to develop which is why I've started to develop kind of a dictionary like I call it kind of a dictionary like I call it kind of a dictionary like I call it watch words like words to if you're out watch words like words to if you're out watch words like words to if you're out there there there you're you know you're just a public per you're you know you're just a public per you're you know you're just a public per your person you want to know what's your person you want to know what's your person you want to know what's really going on you hear these words really going on you hear these words really going on you hear these words like collapse like collapse like collapse in the context of ice what do you do in the context of ice what do you do in the context of ice what do you do with that and so I've created with that and so I've created with that and so I've created conversations around these words conversations around these words conversations around these words geologists and Ice scientists use the

geologists and Ice scientists use the geologists and Ice scientists use the word collapse they're talking about a word collapse they're talking about a word collapse they're talking about a centuries-long process centuries-long process centuries-long process they're not talking about the World they're not talking about the World they're not talking about the World Trade Center and Trade Center and Trade Center and scientists would do well to be more scientists would do well to be more scientists would do well to be more careful with words like that unless your careful with words like that unless your careful with words like that unless your focus is what we're saying earlier focus is what we're saying earlier focus is what we're saying earlier your idea that alarming people will spur your idea that alarming people will spur your idea that alarming people will spur them to act then you use that word them to act then you use that word them to act then you use that word carelessly uh can I just follow up on carelessly uh can I just follow up on carelessly uh can I just follow up on the on the other point that you said you the on the other point that you said you the on the other point that you said you know two three four degrees you know know two three four degrees you know know two three four degrees you know that doesn't sound like much I can just that doesn't sound like much I can just that doesn't sound like much I can just crank up the air conditioning I think crank up the air conditioning I think crank up the air conditioning I think that sort of touches on a really really that sort of touches on a really really that sort of touches on a really really important point that for most rich important point that for most rich important point that for most rich people people people much of climate change is not really much of climate change is not really much of climate change is not really going to be all that impactful it still going to be all that impactful it still going to be all that impactful it still will have an impact but fundamentally if will have an impact but fundamentally if will have an impact but fundamentally if you're well off you can mitigate a lot you're well off you can mitigate a lot you're well off you can mitigate a lot of these impacts and as a young of these impacts and as a young of these impacts and as a young scientist at Carnegie Mellon Destiny scientist at Carnegie Mellon Destiny scientist at Carnegie Mellon Destiny knock knock knock she just was the lead author on a study she just was the lead author on a study she just was the lead author on a study um um um what poor and prosperous households do what poor and prosperous households do what poor and prosperous households do in a heat wave when they have access to in a heat wave when they have access to in a heat wave when they have access to air conditioning in a poor household air conditioning in a poor household air conditioning in a poor household you wait they found through science you wait they found through science you wait they found through science they delay turning on the air they delay turning on the air they delay turning on the air conditioner four to seven degrees more conditioner four to seven degrees more conditioner four to seven degrees more of heating before they start to use the of heating before they start to use the of heating before they start to use the air conditioner and that create adverse air conditioner and that create adverse air conditioner and that create adverse outcomes if you have an estimatic in the outcomes if you have an estimatic in the outcomes if you have an estimatic in the house an old person you're you're house an old person you're you're house an old person you're you're endangering endangering their lives and endangering endangering their lives and endangering endangering their lives and that's just a little tiny microscopic that's just a little tiny microscopic that's just a little tiny microscopic fractal example fractal example fractal example this powerful real phenomenon that this powerful real phenomenon that this powerful real phenomenon that there's a divide in vulnerability and there's a divide in vulnerability and there's a divide in vulnerability and it's not just based on where you live it's not just based on where you live it's not just based on where you live this is families in like Pittsburgh

this is families in like Pittsburgh this is families in like Pittsburgh we're not talking about you know we're not talking about you know we're not talking about you know Botswana and Botswana and Botswana and so that that divide and capacity to deal so that that divide and capacity to deal so that that divide and capacity to deal with environmental stress is something with environmental stress is something with environmental stress is something you can really work on and it gets you can really work on and it gets you can really work on and it gets hidden hidden hidden in all this talk of climate crisis in all this talk of climate crisis in all this talk of climate crisis people and and that that's one of the people and and that that's one of the people and and that that's one of the important parts is is both to say look important parts is is both to say look important parts is is both to say look if seven billion people sorry eight if seven billion people sorry eight if seven billion people sorry eight billion people will now have all billion people will now have all billion people will now have all experienced this even though for each experienced this even though for each experienced this even though for each one of them it's manageable it's still a one of them it's manageable it's still a one of them it's manageable it's still a big problem because it's you know eight big problem because it's you know eight big problem because it's you know eight billion people living through this and billion people living through this and billion people living through this and the second condition eight billion yes the second condition eight billion yes the second condition eight billion yes and and then it's uh it's the it's the and and then it's uh it's the it's the and and then it's uh it's the it's the point of getting to realize it's very point of getting to realize it's very point of getting to realize it's very very much about how do you help the very much about how do you help the very much about how do you help the world's poor and that's very much about world's poor and that's very much about world's poor and that's very much about making it more affordable uh yeah making it more affordable uh yeah making it more affordable uh yeah basically getting them out of poverty basically getting them out of poverty basically getting them out of poverty and remember getting out of poverty and remember getting out of poverty and remember getting out of poverty doesn't just mean that they can now doesn't just mean that they can now doesn't just mean that they can now afford to air condition themselves but afford to air condition themselves but afford to air condition themselves but they get better they get better they get better they get better they get better they get better education they get better opportunities education they get better opportunities education they get better opportunities they get you know better lives in so they get you know better lives in so they get you know better lives in so many other ways and then at the end of many other ways and then at the end of many other ways and then at the end of it it is it's not just about making sure it it is it's not just about making sure it it is it's not just about making sure that we focus on this one problem but that we focus on this one problem but that we focus on this one problem but it's recognizing that these families and it's recognizing that these families and it's recognizing that these families and and have have lots of different issues and have have lots of different issues and have have lots of different issues that they would like us to focus on that they would like us to focus on that they would like us to focus on climb climate and heat waves just being climb climate and heat waves just being climb climate and heat waves just being one of them so you know it's sort of one of them so you know it's sort of one of them so you know it's sort of taking Progressive steps back and taking Progressive steps back and taking Progressive steps back and realizing all right okay this is a realizing all right okay this is a realizing all right okay this is a problem problem problem not the end of the world and one tiny not the end of the world and one tiny not the end of the world and one tiny little last example you mentioned little last example you mentioned little last example you mentioned Jakarta at the beginning Jakarta at the beginning Jakarta at the beginning it's really valuable to look around the it's really valuable to look around the it's really valuable to look around the world at places that are sort of leading world at places that are sort of leading world at places that are sort of leading indicator places indicator places indicator places whether it's sea level rise or heat and

whether it's sea level rise or heat and whether it's sea level rise or heat and you could do that Jakarta is sinking you could do that Jakarta is sinking you could do that Jakarta is sinking like a foot a year literally a foot a like a foot a year literally a foot a like a foot a year literally a foot a year it's some insane number year it's some insane number year it's some insane number from withdrawing groundwater from gas from withdrawing groundwater from gas from withdrawing groundwater from gas withdrawal from it's a Delta you know withdrawal from it's a Delta you know withdrawal from it's a Delta you know it's sediment it's built on sediment I it's sediment it's built on sediment I it's sediment it's built on sediment I wrote a piece of Ages ago the New York wrote a piece of Ages ago the New York wrote a piece of Ages ago the New York Times calling it delta blues you know Times calling it delta blues you know Times calling it delta blues you know I'm a musicians and and Jakarta so what I'm a musicians and and Jakarta so what I'm a musicians and and Jakarta so what are they doing they're moving they're are they doing they're moving they're are they doing they're moving they're moving the capital to uh another uh area moving the capital to uh another uh area moving the capital to uh another uh area and so that says to me and so that says to me and so that says to me there's a lot of plasticity too it's there's a lot of plasticity too it's there's a lot of plasticity too it's it's a city that's going through this it's a city that's going through this it's a city that's going through this that rate of sea level that rate of sea level that rate of sea level of their relationship with the sea level of their relationship with the sea level of their relationship with the sea level through syncing is way faster than through syncing is way faster than through syncing is way faster than what's happening with global warming so what's happening with global warming so what's happening with global warming so look there look to those kinds of places look there look to those kinds of places look there look to those kinds of places and you can start to build a Tokyo had and you can start to build a Tokyo had and you can start to build a Tokyo had the same thing in the 1930s so we're the same thing in the 1930s so we're the same thing in the 1930s so we're also withdrawing a lot of water way too also withdrawing a lot of water way too also withdrawing a lot of water way too fast uh and and so you know one of the fast uh and and so you know one of the fast uh and and so you know one of the obvious things is maybe you should stop obvious things is maybe you should stop obvious things is maybe you should stop withdrawing water so fast you know and withdrawing water so fast you know and withdrawing water so fast you know and and again we seem to almost be intent on and again we seem to almost be intent on and again we seem to almost be intent on finding the most politically correct way finding the most politically correct way finding the most politically correct way to fix a problem or you know the most to fix a problem or you know the most to fix a problem or you know the most the thing that sort of gets the most the thing that sort of gets the most the thing that sort of gets the most clicks instead of the thing that clicks instead of the thing that clicks instead of the thing that actually works the best uh so a lot of actually works the best uh so a lot of actually works the best uh so a lot of these things are really you know not these things are really you know not these things are really you know not rocket science Solutions we'll we'll get rocket science Solutions we'll we'll get rocket science Solutions we'll we'll get there let me add one more on on top of there let me add one more on on top of there let me add one more on on top of the pile of the worst case analysis so the pile of the worst case analysis so the pile of the worst case analysis so what people talk about which is what people talk about which is what people talk about which is hurricanes and earthquakes does is there hurricanes and earthquakes does is there hurricanes and earthquakes does is there a connection that's well understood a connection that's well understood a connection that's well understood between climate change between climate change between climate change and uh the increased frequency and

and uh the increased frequency and and uh the increased frequency and intensity of hurricanes and earthquakes intensity of hurricanes and earthquakes intensity of hurricanes and earthquakes I've dug in on both a lot the earthquake I've dug in on both a lot the earthquake I've dug in on both a lot the earthquake connection to climate change I'm not connection to climate change I'm not connection to climate change I'm not worried about compared to just the worried about compared to just the worried about compared to just the earthquake risk that we live with in earthquake risk that we live with in earthquake risk that we live with in many parts of the world already the many parts of the world already the many parts of the world already the Himalayas Himalayas Himalayas even with that earthquake in 2015 and even with that earthquake in 2015 and even with that earthquake in 2015 and Kathmandu Kathmandu Kathmandu that whole range is overdue for major that whole range is overdue for major that whole range is overdue for major earthquakes and what has happened in the earthquakes and what has happened in the earthquakes and what has happened in the last 50 years since they last had big last 50 years since they last had big last 50 years since they last had big earthquakes huge development big cities earthquakes huge development big cities earthquakes huge development big cities a lot of informal construction like the a lot of informal construction like the a lot of informal construction like the stuff I wrote about in Istanbul where stuff I wrote about in Istanbul where stuff I wrote about in Istanbul where the family builds another layer and the family builds another layer and the family builds another layer and another they put a floor on every time another they put a floor on every time another they put a floor on every time someone gets married has a kid you put someone gets married has a kid you put someone gets married has a kid you put another flooring house and unfortunately another flooring house and unfortunately another flooring house and unfortunately that's you know that's you know that's you know the what was the term this Turkish um the what was the term this Turkish um the what was the term this Turkish um engineer engineer engineer um Rubble in waiting um Rubble in waiting um Rubble in waiting it's rubble and waiting and we're it's rubble and waiting and we're it's rubble and waiting and we're looking at it you know videotaping it looking at it you know videotaping it looking at it you know videotaping it and there are people playing there so I and there are people playing there so I and there are people playing there so I don't worry about the earthquake don't worry about the earthquake don't worry about the earthquake connection to climate change connection to climate change connection to climate change the Hurricanes I've written about for the Hurricanes I've written about for the Hurricanes I've written about for decades um decades um decades um and the most Illuminating body of and the most Illuminating body of and the most Illuminating body of science science science that I've dug in on literally that I've dug in on literally that I've dug in on literally related hurricanes is this field that's related hurricanes is this field that's related hurricanes is this field that's emerged it gets a tiny bit of money emerged it gets a tiny bit of money emerged it gets a tiny bit of money compared to like climate modeling it's compared to like climate modeling it's compared to like climate modeling it's called paleo tempestology called paleo tempestology called paleo tempestology it's like paleontology you know they it's like paleontology you know they it's like paleontology you know they look for evidence of past hurricanes look for evidence of past hurricanes look for evidence of past hurricanes long coasts that we care about long coasts that we care about long coasts that we care about and they dig down into the lagoons and they dig down into the lagoons and they dig down into the lagoons behind like the barrier beaches along behind like the barrier beaches along behind like the barrier beaches along Florida or the Carolinas or in Puerto

Florida or the Carolinas or in Puerto Florida or the Carolinas or in Puerto Rico Rico Rico and what you have is a history book of and what you have is a history book of and what you have is a history book of past hurricanes so there's this mud mud past hurricanes so there's this mud mud past hurricanes so there's this mud mud mud mud mud mud mud mud made of mud mud mud mud mud mud made of mud mud mud mud mud mud made of accumulating over centuries and then accumulating over centuries and then accumulating over centuries and then there's a layer of sand there's a layer of sand there's a layer of sand and seashells and what that indicates is and seashells and what that indicates is and seashells and what that indicates is that there was a great storm that came that there was a great storm that came that there was a great storm that came across the beach pushed a lot of across the beach pushed a lot of across the beach pushed a lot of sediment into the mud and then there's sediment into the mud and then there's sediment into the mud and then there's and when you look at that work I first and when you look at that work I first and when you look at that work I first wrote about this in 2001 in the times in wrote about this in 2001 in the times in wrote about this in 2001 in the times in a long story and then a long story and then a long story and then kept track of these Intrepid scientists kept track of these Intrepid scientists kept track of these Intrepid scientists putting these core tubes down and it putting these core tubes down and it putting these core tubes down and it shows you we're in a landscape where big shows you we're in a landscape where big shows you we're in a landscape where big bad hurricanes are bad hurricanes are bad hurricanes are not they're the norm but not they're the norm but not they're the norm but something that's rare and big is something that's rare and big is something that's rare and big is something that's extreme when you think something that's extreme when you think something that's extreme when you think about the word extreme right it means about the word extreme right it means about the word extreme right it means it's at the end of the spectrum of it's at the end of the spectrum of it's at the end of the spectrum of what's possible what's possible what's possible they're rare they're rare they're rare rare in human time scales rare in human time scales rare in human time scales um hurricane Michael four years ago um hurricane Michael four years ago um hurricane Michael four years ago devastated category five came ashore in devastated category five came ashore in devastated category five came ashore in the panhandle of Florida the panhandle of Florida the panhandle of Florida leveled that much photographed Town leveled that much photographed Town leveled that much photographed Town Mexico Beach Mexico Beach Mexico Beach and um people are actually the and um people are actually the and um people are actually the Tallahassee National Weather Service Tallahassee National Weather Service Tallahassee National Weather Service said unprecedented said unprecedented said unprecedented hurricane hurricane hurricane and the damage was unprecedented because and the damage was unprecedented because and the damage was unprecedented because there hadn't been a community there there hadn't been a community there there hadn't been a community there before before before but the hurricane was not unprecedented but the hurricane was not unprecedented but the hurricane was not unprecedented at all if you look at the history and at all if you look at the history and at all if you look at the history and this is published research it's just this is published research it's just this is published research it's just that no one bothers to that no one bothers to that no one bothers to we have this blind spot for um we have this blind spot for um we have this blind spot for um the longer time scale you need to the longer time scale you need to the longer time scale you need to examine if you're thinking about big bad

examine if you're thinking about big bad examine if you're thinking about big bad things that are rare and hurricanes are things that are rare and hurricanes are things that are rare and hurricanes are still rare I was recently covering Fort still rare I was recently covering Fort still rare I was recently covering Fort Myers the awful devastation Myers the awful devastation Myers the awful devastation there's a young climate scientist at there's a young climate scientist at there's a young climate scientist at Florida Gulf Coast University Joe Muller Florida Gulf Coast University Joe Muller Florida Gulf Coast University Joe Muller who's done that paleo tempestology work who's done that paleo tempestology work who's done that paleo tempestology work there right in Fort Myers she lives there right in Fort Myers she lives there right in Fort Myers she lives there and she was away in London at a there and she was away in London at a there and she was away in London at a meeting of reinsurance companies that meeting of reinsurance companies that meeting of reinsurance companies that reinsured all the world's big bad risks reinsured all the world's big bad risks reinsured all the world's big bad risks when this was happening but she has done when this was happening but she has done when this was happening but she has done the work that shows uh it's a the work that shows uh it's a the work that shows uh it's a Thousand-Year record of past hurricanes Thousand-Year record of past hurricanes Thousand-Year record of past hurricanes and it's super sobering and it's super sobering and it's super sobering when you consider how fast people have when you consider how fast people have when you consider how fast people have moved into moved into moved into Florida and built vulnerably in an area Florida and built vulnerably in an area Florida and built vulnerably in an area that hurricanes will Hammer that it part that hurricanes will Hammer that it part that hurricanes will Hammer that it part of the fundamental dynamics of the Gulf of the fundamental dynamics of the Gulf of the fundamental dynamics of the Gulf of Mexico and these storms come off of of Mexico and these storms come off of of Mexico and these storms come off of Africa Africa Africa it's a place where they would come now it's a place where they would come now it's a place where they would come now the question of global warming impact is the question of global warming impact is the question of global warming impact is subtle there are aspects of hurricanes subtle there are aspects of hurricanes subtle there are aspects of hurricanes that haven't changed there's aspects that haven't changed there's aspects that haven't changed there's aspects like rainfall that seem pretty like rainfall that seem pretty like rainfall that seem pretty powerfully linked to global warming powerfully linked to global warming powerfully linked to global warming of warmer atmosphere holds more moisture of warmer atmosphere holds more moisture of warmer atmosphere holds more moisture so when you have a big disturbance like so when you have a big disturbance like so when you have a big disturbance like a the heat engine of a hurricane comes a the heat engine of a hurricane comes a the heat engine of a hurricane comes through it you get more rain through it you get more rain through it you get more rain does rapid intensification you know how does rapid intensification you know how does rapid intensification you know how quickly these storms quickly these storms quickly these storms jump from like you know category one to jump from like you know category one to jump from like you know category one to five or four before they hit five or four before they hit five or four before they hit isn't is a new area of science so I isn't is a new area of science so I isn't is a new area of science so I think it's still early days and knowing think it's still early days and knowing think it's still early days and knowing because no one was looking for that because no one was looking for that because no one was looking for that there were no data back 300 years ago there were no data back 300 years ago there were no data back 300 years ago you know when these big bad previous

you know when these big bad previous you know when these big bad previous hurricanes came to know whether they hurricanes came to know whether they hurricanes came to know whether they were rapidly intensified or not so I as were rapidly intensified or not so I as were rapidly intensified or not so I as a journalist I try to a journalist I try to a journalist I try to you know keep track of what we don't you know keep track of what we don't you know keep track of what we don't know not to be too constrained and know not to be too constrained and know not to be too constrained and think about new science as being think about new science as being think about new science as being you know robust and let's it's you know robust and let's it's you know robust and let's it's considering and actually actively considering and actually actively considering and actually actively stating stating stating we don't really know what's going on we don't really know what's going on we don't really know what's going on with earlier Harkins with earlier Harkins with earlier Harkins and all of that is swamped ultimately and all of that is swamped ultimately and all of that is swamped ultimately literally literally literally by the vulnerability building by the vulnerability building by the vulnerability building vulnerability in these areas you know if vulnerability in these areas you know if vulnerability in these areas you know if there's a marginal change in a storm there's a marginal change in a storm there's a marginal change in a storm and you've quadrupled or sex tupled and you've quadrupled or sex tupled and you've quadrupled or sex tupled how much stuff and how many people are how much stuff and how many people are how much stuff and how many people are in the way in the way in the way and if some of those people are poor and and if some of those people are poor and and if some of those people are poor and vulnerable vulnerable vulnerable or elderly and can't swim or elderly and can't swim or elderly and can't swim you're creating a landscape of you're creating a landscape of you're creating a landscape of Destruction so a lot of the human Destruction so a lot of the human Destruction so a lot of the human suffering that has to do with storms is suffering that has to do with storms is suffering that has to do with storms is about where and how you build about where and how you build about where and how you build versus the frequency and the intensity versus the frequency and the intensity versus the frequency and the intensity of storms still you didn't quite answer of storms still you didn't quite answer of storms still you didn't quite answer okay the question okay the question okay the question uh you know when I'm having a beer with uh you know when I'm having a beer with uh you know when I'm having a beer with people at a bar and they say hey why are people at a bar and they say hey why are people at a bar and they say hey why are you having a beer we're all going to die you having a beer we're all going to die you having a beer we're all going to die because of climate change usually what because of climate change usually what because of climate change usually what they bring up they bring up they bring up uh and I'm just trying to add some uh and I'm just trying to add some uh and I'm just trying to add some leaves no this is good usually what they leaves no this is good usually what they leaves no this is good usually what they bring up is you know the hurricanes and bring up is you know the hurricanes and bring up is you know the hurricanes and the most recent hurricanes saying like the most recent hurricanes saying like the most recent hurricanes saying like this they're getting crazy hurricanes this they're getting crazy hurricanes this they're getting crazy hurricanes all the time they're getting more all the time they're getting more all the time they're getting more intense more frequent and so on as is

intense more frequent and so on as is intense more frequent and so on as is there I'm sure there's incredible signs there I'm sure there's incredible signs there I'm sure there's incredible signs going on trying to look at this uh is going on trying to look at this uh is going on trying to look at this uh is there is it possible is there evidence there is it possible is there evidence there is it possible is there evidence and is it possible to have evidence that and is it possible to have evidence that and is it possible to have evidence that there's a connection there's a connection there's a connection between what would we can call Global between what would we can call Global between what would we can call Global Warming and the increased frequency and Warming and the increased frequency and Warming and the increased frequency and intensity of Storms and is okay no thank intensity of Storms and is okay no thank intensity of Storms and is okay no thank you you you if you're out of intensity you know it's if you're out of intensity you know it's if you're out of intensity you know it's it's let me just get into this a tiny it's let me just get into this a tiny it's let me just get into this a tiny bit more I mean hurricanes bit more I mean hurricanes bit more I mean hurricanes I grew up with them in Rhode Island in I grew up with them in Rhode Island in I grew up with them in Rhode Island in the new and you know in my youth and the new and you know in my youth and the new and you know in my youth and there was a very active period of there was a very active period of there was a very active period of hurricanes in New England hurricanes in New England hurricanes in New England in the 50s and 60s 70s in the 50s and 60s 70s in the 50s and 60s 70s and then in the North Atlantic generally and then in the North Atlantic generally and then in the North Atlantic generally was very very active the number 50 when was very very active the number 50 when was very very active the number 50 when I was a kid and I was a kid and I was a kid and the Dynamics of them forming off of the Dynamics of them forming off of the Dynamics of them forming off of Africa and coming here circling up the Africa and coming here circling up the Africa and coming here circling up the coast was just prime time coast was just prime time coast was just prime time then there was like what Kerry Emanuel then there was like what Kerry Emanuel then there was like what Kerry Emanuel who's the most experienced hurricane who's the most experienced hurricane who's the most experienced hurricane climate scientist around at MIT climate scientist around at MIT climate scientist around at MIT I he was in he's in this story he's in I he was in he's in this story he's in I he was in he's in this story he's in he's in my 1988 article he's in my 1988 article he's in my 1988 article he and colleagues have found and others he and colleagues have found and others he and colleagues have found and others that that that there's what they call the hurricane there's what they call the hurricane there's what they call the hurricane drought from like the 70s through about drought from like the 70s through about drought from like the 70s through about 1994. in the Atlantic specifically the 1994. in the Atlantic specifically the 1994. in the Atlantic specifically the Atlantic basin Atlantic basin Atlantic basin and there's been a lot of questions and there's been a lot of questions and there's been a lot of questions about that people thought it was ocean about that people thought it was ocean about that people thought it was ocean circulation something about the currents circulation something about the currents circulation something about the currents do these multi-decatal do these multi-decatal do these multi-decatal variabilities in the oceans right variabilities in the oceans right variabilities in the oceans right and then now it looks robustly I can't

and then now it looks robustly I can't and then now it looks robustly I can't find a climate scientist who disagrees find a climate scientist who disagrees find a climate scientist who disagrees that the thing that caused the drought that the thing that caused the drought that the thing that caused the drought was pollution smog was pollution smog was pollution smog and significantly in Europe and you and significantly in Europe and you and significantly in Europe and you think well how did smog in Europe relate think well how did smog in Europe relate think well how did smog in Europe relate to hurricanes to hurricanes to hurricanes crossing the Atlantic and getting to crossing the Atlantic and getting to crossing the Atlantic and getting to the United States it's because of the the United States it's because of the the United States it's because of the smog was changing the behavior of the smog was changing the behavior of the smog was changing the behavior of the Sahara Desert which is just south of Sahara Desert which is just south of Sahara Desert which is just south of Europe Europe Europe and and the Sarah Harrah does it kills and and the Sarah Harrah does it kills and and the Sarah Harrah does it kills hurricanes sand and dust coming off the hurricanes sand and dust coming off the hurricanes sand and dust coming off the Sahara you can see this every year and Sahara you can see this every year and Sahara you can see this every year and when that's active when that's active when that's active it stifles these big storms at the point it stifles these big storms at the point it stifles these big storms at the point right in their Nursery they all form right in their Nursery they all form right in their Nursery they all form there's this area for hurricanes off of there's this area for hurricanes off of there's this area for hurricanes off of West Africa that's like the nursery Zone West Africa that's like the nursery Zone West Africa that's like the nursery Zone and so if you're stifling those and so if you're stifling those and so if you're stifling those hurricanes because of pollution in in hurricanes because of pollution in in hurricanes because of pollution in in Europe before the Clean Air acts kind of Europe before the Clean Air acts kind of Europe before the Clean Air acts kind of you know cleanups and then that goes you know cleanups and then that goes you know cleanups and then that goes away away away none of that has anything to do with none of that has anything to do with none of that has anything to do with global warming it's another kind of global warming it's another kind of global warming it's another kind of forcing in the climate system a local forcing in the climate system a local forcing in the climate system a local one that created a regional dynamic that one that created a regional dynamic that one that created a regional dynamic that created a quiet period when all these created a quiet period when all these created a quiet period when all these friends in the bar friends in the bar friends in the bar we're maybe they maybe they were born we're maybe they maybe they were born we're maybe they maybe they were born you know in the 90s or whatever they you know in the 90s or whatever they you know in the 90s or whatever they grew up in an area of like you know grew up in an area of like you know grew up in an area of like you know where no hurricanes weren't a big deal where no hurricanes weren't a big deal where no hurricanes weren't a big deal um um um and now we have an end to that drought and now we have an end to that drought and now we have an end to that drought because we cleaned up the air pollution because we cleaned up the air pollution because we cleaned up the air pollution the sooty kind of air pollution sulfury the sooty kind of air pollution sulfury the sooty kind of air pollution sulfury and and and anyone who says global warming global anyone who says global warming global anyone who says global warming global warming without saying well that's in warming without saying well that's in warming without saying well that's in there too is kind of missing there too is kind of missing there too is kind of missing that and when you look globally you know

that and when you look globally you know that and when you look globally you know there's still I think was it 90 or so there's still I think was it 90 or so there's still I think was it 90 or so hurricanes a year to Cyclones hurricanes hurricanes a year to Cyclones hurricanes hurricanes a year to Cyclones hurricanes typhoons globally that hasn't changed typhoons globally that hasn't changed typhoons globally that hasn't changed the number of these tropical storms that the number of these tropical storms that the number of these tropical storms that reach that ferocity has not changed it's reach that ferocity has not changed it's reach that ferocity has not changed it's just a fundamental Dynamic of and and by just a fundamental Dynamic of and and by just a fundamental Dynamic of and and by the way on the long time scale the the way on the long time scale the the way on the long time scale the models models models still indicate as you warm the planet still indicate as you warm the planet still indicate as you warm the planet and remember the Arctic worms quicker and remember the Arctic worms quicker and remember the Arctic worms quicker this is something people probably this is something people probably this is something people probably understand understand understand you're actually evening out the you're actually evening out the you're actually evening out the imbalance between the Heat of the imbalance between the Heat of the imbalance between the Heat of the Equator Equator Equator and the cold that the in the northern and the cold that the in the northern and the cold that the in the northern part of the hemisphere part of the hemisphere part of the hemisphere and that calms the whole system down so and that calms the whole system down so and that calms the whole system down so there could be fewer hurricanes later in there could be fewer hurricanes later in there could be fewer hurricanes later in the century because of global warming the century because of global warming the century because of global warming and for me you know that's a lot of and for me you know that's a lot of and for me you know that's a lot of information but if I'm in a bar information but if I'm in a bar information but if I'm in a bar I start with what what do you care about I start with what what do you care about I start with what what do you care about you care about safety you care about you care about safety you care about you care about safety you care about security you care about security you care about security you care about having everybody safe not just you you having everybody safe not just you you having everybody safe not just you you get in your car and you can evacuate get in your car and you can evacuate get in your car and you can evacuate what about the old person what about the old person what about the old person you know or the poor family you know or the poor family you know or the poor family who can't do that they're not going to who can't do that they're not going to who can't do that they're not going to leave their house what are we doing to leave their house what are we doing to leave their house what are we doing to limit vulnerability now that I Circle limit vulnerability now that I Circle limit vulnerability now that I Circle back to that over and over again I have back to that over and over again I have back to that over and over again I have like a pocket card I have this like a pocket card I have this like a pocket card I have this graphic card I created about risk and graphic card I created about risk and graphic card I created about risk and like what we really care about is like what we really care about is like what we really care about is climate risk like who's at risk what's climate risk like who's at risk what's climate risk like who's at risk what's driving the risk how do you reduce that driving the risk how do you reduce that driving the risk how do you reduce that it's car you can almost pull it out in a it's car you can almost pull it out in a it's car you can almost pull it out in a bar I should print them you should do bar I should print them you should do bar I should print them you should do that it's like a risk risk is that it's like a risk risk is that it's like a risk risk is risk is the hazard like you know the

risk is the hazard like you know the risk is the hazard like you know the hazard is hazard is hazard is is a storm is a storm is a storm times exposure how many people how much times exposure how many people how much times exposure how many people how much stuff stuff stuff factoring in factoring in factoring in um vulnerability or resilience um vulnerability or resilience um vulnerability or resilience and and and climate change is changing the hazard climate change is changing the hazard climate change is changing the hazard for some things not for tornadoes not for some things not for tornadoes not for some things not for tornadoes not for not for everything for not for everything for not for everything exposure is this expanding Bullseye this exposure is this expanding Bullseye this exposure is this expanding Bullseye this is another hashtag expanding bullseye is another hashtag expanding bullseye is another hashtag expanding bullseye get out there and look for that and get out there and look for that and get out there and look for that and you'll see I I've pushing these two you'll see I I've pushing these two you'll see I I've pushing these two geographers who do this for every Hazard geographers who do this for every Hazard geographers who do this for every Hazard wildfire wildfire wildfire earthquake flood Coastal storm and we're earthquake flood Coastal storm and we're earthquake flood Coastal storm and we're building an expanding Bullseye in an building an expanding Bullseye in an building an expanding Bullseye in an area and Nature's throwing darts some of area and Nature's throwing darts some of area and Nature's throwing darts some of the darts are getting bigger because of the darts are getting bigger because of the darts are getting bigger because of global warming some of the darts we global warming some of the darts we global warming some of the darts we don't know don't know don't know what do you do like what do you do well what do you do like what do you do well what do you do like what do you do well you get out of the way right you don't you get out of the way right you don't you get out of the way right you don't want to be on the dartboard and that it want to be on the dartboard and that it want to be on the dartboard and that it just simplifies the whole formula just simplifies the whole formula just simplifies the whole formula to me it was it's kind of a to me it was it's kind of a to me it was it's kind of a transformational transformational transformational uh potential uh potential uh potential to go into a bar maybe I should print to go into a bar maybe I should print to go into a bar maybe I should print these things 100 and I should go ahead these things 100 and I should go ahead these things 100 and I should go ahead with you more often they should be with you more often they should be with you more often they should be coasters and bars because that was coasters and bars because that was coasters and bars because that was fascinating about Smog and I mean it's fascinating about Smog and I mean it's fascinating about Smog and I mean it's just it's nice to be reminded about how just it's nice to be reminded about how just it's nice to be reminded about how complicated and fascinating the weather complicated and fascinating the weather complicated and fascinating the weather system is let me try to answer the the system is let me try to answer the the system is let me try to answer the the the questions slightly quicker before the questions slightly quicker before the questions slightly quicker before your your friends have drunk too much uh your your friends have drunk too much uh your your friends have drunk too much uh but never enough but never enough but never enough or not enough or not enough or not enough um so if you look at the amount of uh of

um so if you look at the amount of uh of um so if you look at the amount of uh of uh the number of hurricanes as uh as uh the number of hurricanes as uh as uh the number of hurricanes as uh as Andy brightly pointed out Andy brightly pointed out Andy brightly pointed out um it doesn't look like it's changing so um it doesn't look like it's changing so um it doesn't look like it's changing so we see more because we have now much we see more because we have now much we see more because we have now much better detection systems with satellites better detection systems with satellites better detection systems with satellites but if you look since uh but if you look since uh but if you look since uh 1980 when we have good satellite 1980 when we have good satellite 1980 when we have good satellite coverage for instance last year coverage for instance last year coverage for instance last year was the year that had the lowest number was the year that had the lowest number was the year that had the lowest number of hurricanes in the world of hurricanes in the world of hurricanes in the world and you know you're sort of like that's and you know you're sort of like that's and you know you're sort of like that's that's odd because it's probably the that's odd because it's probably the that's odd because it's probably the year where I heard the most about year where I heard the most about year where I heard the most about hurricanes and what that tells you is hurricanes and what that tells you is hurricanes and what that tells you is that just because you hear a lot about that just because you hear a lot about that just because you hear a lot about hurricanes doesn't actually mean that hurricanes doesn't actually mean that hurricanes doesn't actually mean that there is a lot of hurricanes you can't there is a lot of hurricanes you can't there is a lot of hurricanes you can't just go that way if if you remember uh just go that way if if you remember uh just go that way if if you remember uh in the 1990s and 2000s uh there was an in the 1990s and 2000s uh there was an in the 1990s and 2000s uh there was an enormous amount of talk about how enormous amount of talk about how enormous amount of talk about how violence uh how crime was getting worse violence uh how crime was getting worse violence uh how crime was getting worse in the U.S while all the objective in the U.S while all the objective in the U.S while all the objective indicators showed that it was going down indicators showed that it was going down indicators showed that it was going down but there's sufficient amount of but there's sufficient amount of but there's sufficient amount of violence that you can fill every radio violence that you can fill every radio violence that you can fill every radio and TV show with a new crime and so if and TV show with a new crime and so if and TV show with a new crime and so if you get more and more TV shows that talk you get more and more TV shows that talk you get more and more TV shows that talk about crime actually most people end up about crime actually most people end up about crime actually most people end up thinking that there's more crime while thinking that there's more crime while thinking that there's more crime while the real numbers going down so the the real numbers going down so the the real numbers going down so the reality here is reality here is reality here is yes climate change will probably affect yes climate change will probably affect yes climate change will probably affect hurricanes in the sense that they'll be hurricanes in the sense that they'll be hurricanes in the sense that they'll be the same number or slightly fewer as the same number or slightly fewer as the same number or slightly fewer as Andy was mentioning but they will likely Andy was mentioning but they will likely Andy was mentioning but they will likely be somewhat stronger this seems to be be somewhat stronger this seems to be be somewhat stronger this seems to be the the best outcome we're not sure but the the best outcome we're not sure but the the best outcome we're not sure but this seems to be the the outcome and this seems to be the the outcome and this seems to be the the outcome and it's important to remember stronger is

it's important to remember stronger is it's important to remember stronger is worse than fewer is better worse than fewer is better worse than fewer is better so overall so overall so overall climate will make the world a little bit climate will make the world a little bit climate will make the world a little bit worse so that's that's the that's the worse so that's that's the that's the worse so that's that's the that's the sort of bottom line but and that's the sort of bottom line but and that's the sort of bottom line but and that's the real issue here all the other things the real issue here all the other things the real issue here all the other things the fact that people are much more fact that people are much more fact that people are much more vulnerable is is just vastly outweigh vulnerable is is just vastly outweigh vulnerable is is just vastly outweigh this which is why if you look at the this which is why if you look at the this which is why if you look at the impact of hurricanes and impact of impact of hurricanes and impact of impact of hurricanes and impact of pretty much everything is typically pretty much everything is typically pretty much everything is typically going down if you look for instance in going down if you look for instance in going down if you look for instance in percent of GDP you have to look at percent of GDP you have to look at percent of GDP you have to look at percent of GDP because if you have twice percent of GDP because if you have twice percent of GDP because if you have twice as many houses obviously you know the as many houses obviously you know the as many houses obviously you know the same kind of impact will have twice the same kind of impact will have twice the same kind of impact will have twice the the impact or if they're twice as worth the impact or if they're twice as worth the impact or if they're twice as worth twice as much if you do that in percent twice as much if you do that in percent twice as much if you do that in percent of GDP and even the UN says that's how of GDP and even the UN says that's how of GDP and even the UN says that's how you should measure it's going down why you should measure it's going down why you should measure it's going down why is that it's because we're becoming more is that it's because we're becoming more is that it's because we're becoming more resilient you know just simply we you resilient you know just simply we you resilient you know just simply we you know if you look at what happens with know if you look at what happens with know if you look at what happens with when hurricanes come in we have much when hurricanes come in we have much when hurricanes come in we have much better prediction in the long run that better prediction in the long run that better prediction in the long run that means you now know you know two or three means you now know you know two or three means you now know you know two or three days out that there's a big hurricane days out that there's a big hurricane days out that there's a big hurricane that's likely to come here what does that's likely to come here what does that's likely to come here what does that mean all the things that can be that mean all the things that can be that mean all the things that can be moved so you know typically all All moved so you know typically all All moved so you know typically all All Buses old trucks everything that's not Buses old trucks everything that's not Buses old trucks everything that's not bolted down will leave this area and so bolted down will leave this area and so bolted down will leave this area and so you'll get less damage from that you you'll get less damage from that you you'll get less damage from that you will have more people knowing oh this is will have more people knowing oh this is will have more people knowing oh this is going to be a big one they move to their going to be a big one they move to their going to be a big one they move to their relative somewhere else so you'll have relative somewhere else so you'll have relative somewhere else so you'll have fewer people being vulnerable there's if fewer people being vulnerable there's if fewer people being vulnerable there's if people are responsive and aware yeah people are responsive and aware yeah people are responsive and aware yeah yeah you can do this so the outcome and yeah you can do this so the outcome and yeah you can do this so the outcome and this is important for the whole this is important for the whole this is important for the whole conversation the outcome is that we're conversation the outcome is that we're conversation the outcome is that we're actually becoming less vulnerable and

actually becoming less vulnerable and actually becoming less vulnerable and the damages are becoming smaller not the damages are becoming smaller not the damages are becoming smaller not bigger but had they not been global bigger but had they not been global bigger but had they not been global warming it would probably have gone down warming it would probably have gone down warming it would probably have gone down even faster so we would have become even even faster so we would have become even even faster so we would have become even better off quicker had there been no better off quicker had there been no better off quicker had there been no global warming but this is a crucial global warming but this is a crucial global warming but this is a crucial difference and this is what I find difference and this is what I find difference and this is what I find really hard to communicate climate really hard to communicate climate really hard to communicate climate change is not this oh my God everything change is not this oh my God everything change is not this oh my God everything is going off the off the off the charts is going off the off the off the charts is going off the off the off the charts and we're all going to be doomed kind of and we're all going to be doomed kind of and we're all going to be doomed kind of thing climate change is a thing that thing climate change is a thing that thing climate change is a thing that means we're going to get better slightly means we're going to get better slightly means we're going to get better slightly slower and that's a very very different slower and that's a very very different slower and that's a very very different kind of attitude it's one of the many kind of attitude it's one of the many kind of attitude it's one of the many problems rather than this is the end of problems rather than this is the end of problems rather than this is the end of all of us and by the way if you look at all of us and by the way if you look at all of us and by the way if you look at what's happening in the world what's happening in the world what's happening in the world um the data also show that in rich um the data also show that in rich um the data also show that in rich places in four places we still are places in four places we still are places in four places we still are moving into zones of Hazard faster than moving into zones of Hazard faster than moving into zones of Hazard faster than climate is changing Beth Tillman climate is changing Beth Tillman climate is changing Beth Tillman was at Columbia and she moved to Arizona was at Columbia and she moved to Arizona was at Columbia and she moved to Arizona she and colleagues at this outfit called she and colleagues at this outfit called she and colleagues at this outfit called Cloud to Street did an amazing study Cloud to Street did an amazing study Cloud to Street did an amazing study showing this is a year or so ago I wrote showing this is a year or so ago I wrote showing this is a year or so ago I wrote about showing about showing about showing again we're moving into zones of Hazard again we're moving into zones of Hazard again we're moving into zones of Hazard which it applies to me which it applies to me which it applies to me um um um just what Bjorn was saying that we just what Bjorn was saying that we just what Bjorn was saying that we wouldn't be people wouldn't be doing wouldn't be people wouldn't be doing wouldn't be people wouldn't be doing that if they thought that was going to that if they thought that was going to that if they thought that was going to lead to Devastation and this is today lead to Devastation and this is today lead to Devastation and this is today we're doing this now and it's flood we're doing this now and it's flood we're doing this now and it's flood flood zones Wildfire zones flood zones Wildfire zones flood zones Wildfire zones so that means there's these things to do so that means there's these things to do so that means there's these things to do you there's so much plasticity in the you there's so much plasticity in the you there's so much plasticity in the human behavior and how we build and human behavior and how we build and human behavior and how we build and where we build you can make a big big

where we build you can make a big big where we build you can make a big big change in the outcomes I mean one of the change in the outcomes I mean one of the change in the outcomes I mean one of the things to remember is you know people things to remember is you know people things to remember is you know people move to where hurricanes hit because move to where hurricanes hit because move to where hurricanes hit because when they're not there it's a really when they're not there it's a really when they're not there it's a really beautiful place to be yeah yeah right so beautiful place to be yeah yeah right so beautiful place to be yeah yeah right so so in in many ways we we make the so in in many ways we we make the so in in many ways we we make the trade-offs and say look I'm I'm happy to trade-offs and say look I'm I'm happy to trade-offs and say look I'm I'm happy to live you know have an ocean view and live you know have an ocean view and live you know have an ocean view and then maybe a hurricane is going to hit then maybe a hurricane is going to hit then maybe a hurricane is going to hit and of course it becomes a lot easier and of course it becomes a lot easier and of course it becomes a lot easier than when the federal government is than when the federal government is than when the federal government is actually subsidizing your risk by saying actually subsidizing your risk by saying actually subsidizing your risk by saying we'll insure you really cheaply uh and we'll insure you really cheaply uh and we'll insure you really cheaply uh and that's one of the things that we should that's one of the things that we should that's one of the things that we should stop doing you know we should actually stop doing you know we should actually stop doing you know we should actually tell people look if you want to live tell people look if you want to live tell people look if you want to live where hurricanes sit maybe you should be where hurricanes sit maybe you should be where hurricanes sit maybe you should be more careful yeah by the way what I was more careful yeah by the way what I was more careful yeah by the way what I was saying about saying about saying about um past storms the Paleo tempestology um past storms the Paleo tempestology um past storms the Paleo tempestology past fires it's the same thing we've past fires it's the same thing we've past fires it's the same thing we've suppressed fire in the United States for suppressed fire in the United States for suppressed fire in the United States for 100 years through much of the west 100 years through much of the west 100 years through much of the west through uh wanting to save the forests through uh wanting to save the forests through uh wanting to save the forests you know the whole Smokey the Bear thing you know the whole Smokey the Bear thing you know the whole Smokey the Bear thing don't stop when these are Landscapes don't stop when these are Landscapes don't stop when these are Landscapes that were that evolved to burn that were that evolved to burn that were that evolved to burn and what happened in the last hundred and what happened in the last hundred and what happened in the last hundred years a lot of people love the West we years a lot of people love the West we years a lot of people love the West we love we love these environments we love love we love these environments we love love we love these environments we love to live with the trees the Boulder to live with the trees the Boulder to live with the trees the Boulder County area the explosive development in County area the explosive development in County area the explosive development in zones of implicit hazard zones of implicit hazard zones of implicit hazard leads to Big Bad outcomes when leads to Big Bad outcomes when leads to Big Bad outcomes when conditions align and climate change is conditions align and climate change is conditions align and climate change is worsening some of those conditions and worsening some of those conditions and worsening some of those conditions and sometimes it's really counter-intuitive sometimes it's really counter-intuitive sometimes it's really counter-intuitive a wet season builds more grass a wet season builds more grass a wet season builds more grass dry season comes along parches the grass dry season comes along parches the grass dry season comes along parches the grass then comes a human ignition it's almost then comes a human ignition it's almost then comes a human ignition it's almost always human ignitions and then you have always human ignitions and then you have always human ignitions and then you have this disaster where a thousand homes this disaster where a thousand homes this disaster where a thousand homes burn in Boulder County and it's like

burn in Boulder County and it's like burn in Boulder County and it's like there's so many elements there that can there's so many elements there that can there's so many elements there that can be worked on that give me confidence be worked on that give me confidence be worked on that give me confidence that we can that we can that we can change these outcomes you can natural change these outcomes you can natural change these outcomes you can natural disasters are not natural disasters are disasters are not natural disasters are disasters are not natural disasters are designed really as some people say can I designed really as some people say can I designed really as some people say can I take a quick aside and ask about take a quick aside and ask about take a quick aside and ask about terminology of climate change and global terminology of climate change and global terminology of climate change and global warming so you use it interchangeably it warming so you use it interchangeably it warming so you use it interchangeably it is an aside but it's one that's worthy is an aside but it's one that's worthy is an aside but it's one that's worthy of taking do those carry different of taking do those carry different of taking do those carry different meanings and has that meaning changed meanings and has that meaning changed meanings and has that meaning changed over the years over the years over the years uh between those two terms are they uh between those two terms are they uh between those two terms are they really equivalent well some people say really equivalent well some people say really equivalent well some people say there was this industry or there was this industry or there was this industry or propagandistic shift from propagandistic shift from propagandistic shift from let's see what was that which came first let's see what was that which came first let's see what was that which came first oh no they're going to climate change oh no they're going to climate change oh no they're going to climate change now like it's a new thing which is crazy now like it's a new thing which is crazy now like it's a new thing which is crazy it's ridiculous it's ridiculous it's ridiculous the intergovernmental panel on climate the intergovernmental panel on climate the intergovernmental panel on climate change change change in 1988 wasn't the intergovernmental in 1988 wasn't the intergovernmental in 1988 wasn't the intergovernmental panel on global warming it was on panel on global warming it was on panel on global warming it was on climate change climate change climate change so these these terms have been there so these these terms have been there so these these terms have been there they've been sort of evolving when I they've been sort of evolving when I they've been sort of evolving when I wrote this cover story it was the wrote this cover story it was the wrote this cover story it was the greenhouse effect greenhouse effect greenhouse effect so green and that's fallen out of favor so green and that's fallen out of favor so green and that's fallen out of favor greenhouse effect is not often talked greenhouse effect is not often talked greenhouse effect is not often talked about well it's really that's that's the about well it's really that's that's the about well it's really that's that's the physical effect that's holding in the physical effect that's holding in the physical effect that's holding in the heat but see the it's not a good there's heat but see the it's not a good there's heat but see the it's not a good there's terms that mean stuff and there's terms terms that mean stuff and there's terms terms that mean stuff and there's terms that are actually used in public that are actually used in public that are actually used in public discourse to designate what you're a discourse to designate what you're a discourse to designate what you're a whole whole whole umbrella of opinions you have and I umbrella of opinions you have and I umbrella of opinions you have and I guess if somebody me who doesn't pay guess if somebody me who doesn't pay guess if somebody me who doesn't pay attention uh to this carefully

attention uh to this carefully attention uh to this carefully you have to use terms carefully sure you have to use terms carefully sure you have to use terms carefully sure because people will you know a noob that because people will you know a noob that because people will you know a noob that rolls into the topic will often use rolls into the topic will often use rolls into the topic will often use terms to mean exactly what they mean terms to mean exactly what they mean terms to mean exactly what they mean like literally but they actually have like literally but they actually have like literally but they actually have political implications and all that kind political implications and all that kind political implications and all that kind of stuff so I guess I'm asking is there of stuff so I guess I'm asking is there of stuff so I guess I'm asking is there like uh is is there uh are you signaling like uh is is there uh are you signaling like uh is is there uh are you signaling something by using global warming versus something by using global warming versus something by using global warming versus climate change or people have calmed climate change or people have calmed climate change or people have calmed down in terms of the use of these no no down in terms of the use of these no no down in terms of the use of these no no but the guardian newspapers made it but the guardian newspapers made it but the guardian newspapers made it worse now they have their style book you worse now they have their style book you worse now they have their style book you know every newspaper has a they they know every newspaper has a they they know every newspaper has a they they prescribe they don't want their prescribe they don't want their prescribe they don't want their reporters to use any of those terms reporters to use any of those terms reporters to use any of those terms anymore they call it climate crisis anymore they call it climate crisis anymore they call it climate crisis climate emergency oh no oh yeah Global climate emergency oh no oh yeah Global climate emergency oh no oh yeah Global heating it's literally in their rule heating it's literally in their rule heating it's literally in their rule book Global heating that sounds more book Global heating that sounds more book Global heating that sounds more intense and that was the point well I intense and that was the point well I intense and that was the point well I wrote about the global Heating wrote about the global Heating wrote about the global Heating thing more than a decade ago that that's thing more than a decade ago that that's thing more than a decade ago that that's been around but you know so they're been around but you know so they're been around but you know so they're they're doing the um what was the movie they're doing the um what was the movie they're doing the um what was the movie where the where the where the the comedy the rock and roll comedy the comedy the rock and roll comedy the comedy the rock and roll comedy where he sets his his loving yeah yeah where he sets his his loving yeah yeah where he sets his his loving yeah yeah his amplifier goes to 11. you know the his amplifier goes to 11. you know the his amplifier goes to 11. you know the idea that you turned up the rhetorical idea that you turned up the rhetorical idea that you turned up the rhetorical volume and that's going to change volume and that's going to change volume and that's going to change people's is ridiculous so so for me I people's is ridiculous so so for me I people's is ridiculous so so for me I mean uh I use global warming and climate mean uh I use global warming and climate mean uh I use global warming and climate change uh uh interchangeably and I think change uh uh interchangeably and I think change uh uh interchangeably and I think it's it's fair there's you know there's it's it's fair there's you know there's it's it's fair there's you know there's some technical ways that you can some technical ways that you can some technical ways that you can differentiate them uh but the reality is differentiate them uh but the reality is differentiate them uh but the reality is global warming is probably a better way global warming is probably a better way global warming is probably a better way to describe a lot of it because this is to describe a lot of it because this is to describe a lot of it because this is really what is the main Drive of what we really what is the main Drive of what we really what is the main Drive of what we worry about uh climate change seems a worry about uh climate change seems a worry about uh climate change seems a little diffuse but you know it's

little diffuse but you know it's little diffuse but you know it's convenient to when you talk about convenient to when you talk about convenient to when you talk about climate all the time that you can call climate all the time that you can call climate all the time that you can call both of them but I think the climate both of them but I think the climate both of them but I think the climate crisis and the climate catastrophe is crisis and the climate catastrophe is crisis and the climate catastrophe is really sort of this is the amping up uh really sort of this is the amping up uh really sort of this is the amping up uh of of a catastrophe and again as we've of of a catastrophe and again as we've of of a catastrophe and again as we've talked about before uh if it really were talked about before uh if it really were talked about before uh if it really were true we should tell people uh but if true we should tell people uh but if true we should tell people uh but if it's not true and I think there's a lot it's not true and I think there's a lot it's not true and I think there's a lot of reasons why this is not a you know a of reasons why this is not a you know a of reasons why this is not a you know a climate catastrophe this is a problem uh climate catastrophe this is a problem uh climate catastrophe this is a problem uh we're actually doing everyone a we're actually doing everyone a we're actually doing everyone a disservice because we we end up making disservice because we we end up making disservice because we we end up making people so worried that they say we got people so worried that they say we got people so worried that they say we got to fix this in 12 years or whatever the to fix this in 12 years or whatever the to fix this in 12 years or whatever the number is and also that it makes it number is and also that it makes it number is and also that it makes it almost impossible to have a conversation almost impossible to have a conversation almost impossible to have a conversation of you know well you know maybe we of you know well you know maybe we of you know well you know maybe we should be focusing on vulnerability should be focusing on vulnerability should be focusing on vulnerability first and it a lot of people and I think first and it a lot of people and I think first and it a lot of people and I think a lot of well-meaning uh and a lot of well-meaning uh and a lot of well-meaning uh and well-intentioned people feel that it's well-intentioned people feel that it's well-intentioned people feel that it's almost sacrilegious to do you know to almost sacrilegious to do you know to almost sacrilegious to do you know to say it's a it's about uh vulnerability say it's a it's about uh vulnerability say it's a it's about uh vulnerability because you're taking away you the guilt because you're taking away you the guilt because you're taking away you the guilt of climate change you're taking away our of climate change you're taking away our of climate change you're taking away our focus on on on dealing with climate focus on on on dealing with climate focus on on on dealing with climate change whereas I think we would say no change whereas I think we would say no change whereas I think we would say no it's about stuff that actually works and it's about stuff that actually works and it's about stuff that actually works and you know doing that first right and and you know doing that first right and and you know doing that first right and and by making it about by making it about by making it about carbon dioxide you're impliciting carbon dioxide you're impliciting carbon dioxide you're impliciting implicitly making it about fossil fuels implicitly making it about fossil fuels implicitly making it about fossil fuels which implicitly gives you another great which implicitly gives you another great which implicitly gives you another great narrative good guy bad guy narrative good guy bad guy narrative good guy bad guy it's these big companies where's the it's these big companies where's the it's these big companies where's the source of alarmism source of alarmism source of alarmism so is it the ipcc the intergovernmental so is it the ipcc the intergovernmental so is it the ipcc the intergovernmental panel on climate change like what panel on climate change like what panel on climate change like what there's a chain here is there somebody there's a chain here is there somebody there's a chain here is there somebody to blame along the chain or is this some

to blame along the chain or is this some to blame along the chain or is this some kind of weird complex as to where kind of weird complex as to where kind of weird complex as to where everybody encourages each other can you everybody encourages each other can you everybody encourages each other can you point to one place is it the media is it point to one place is it the media is it point to one place is it the media is it the scientist I think the U.N climate the scientist I think the U.N climate the scientist I think the U.N climate panel is fundamentally a really good uh panel is fundamentally a really good uh panel is fundamentally a really good uh uh uh climate research group that you uh uh climate research group that you uh uh climate research group that you can have some quipples with the way that can have some quipples with the way that can have some quipples with the way that they sort of summarize it and they sort of summarize it and they sort of summarize it and politically coordinated documents and politically coordinated documents and politically coordinated documents and stuff but you know fundamentally I think stuff but you know fundamentally I think stuff but you know fundamentally I think they do a good job of of putting they do a good job of of putting they do a good job of of putting together all the research this also together all the research this also together all the research this also means it's incredibly boring to read means it's incredibly boring to read means it's incredibly boring to read which is why virtually Nobody Does it which is why virtually Nobody Does it which is why virtually Nobody Does it I'm I'm sure you have but I'm pretty I'm I'm sure you have but I'm pretty I'm I'm sure you have but I'm pretty sure a lot of climate journalists have sure a lot of climate journalists have sure a lot of climate journalists have never sort of looked past the uh at never sort of looked past the uh at never sort of looked past the uh at least the uh the summary for policy least the uh the summary for policy least the uh the summary for policy climate panel they do like us they do climate panel they do like us they do climate panel they do like us they do predictions as well no well they they predictions as well no well they they predictions as well no well they they pull together all the stuff that people pull together all the stuff that people pull together all the stuff that people have published in the period literature have published in the period literature have published in the period literature and then try to summarize it and and then try to summarize it and and then try to summarize it and basically tell you so what's up and down basically tell you so what's up and down basically tell you so what's up and down with climate change they do that in four with climate change they do that in four with climate change they do that in four four large volumes every four to five four large volumes every four to five four large volumes every four to five six seven years or something uh and um six seven years or something uh and um six seven years or something uh and um and yes it's it's you know I think it's and yes it's it's you know I think it's and yes it's it's you know I think it's the gold-plated version of what we know the gold-plated version of what we know the gold-plated version of what we know uh there tends to be a lot of uh there tends to be a lot of uh there tends to be a lot of um uh well this is what they say um uh well this is what they say um uh well this is what they say actually they say so many different actually they say so many different actually they say so many different places with so many different people places with so many different people places with so many different people that it's not quite clear exactly what that it's not quite clear exactly what that it's not quite clear exactly what they're saying often you know you can they're saying often you know you can they're saying often you know you can sort of find contradictions between one sort of find contradictions between one sort of find contradictions between one volume with one set of authors and volume with one set of authors and volume with one set of authors and another but yeah look I I think this is another but yeah look I I think this is another but yeah look I I think this is fundamentally the right way that we know fundamentally the right way that we know fundamentally the right way that we know about climate but then it gets

about climate but then it gets about climate but then it gets translated into how do you how do you translated into how do you how do you translated into how do you how do you know about this when most people don't know about this when most people don't know about this when most people don't read these 4 000 Pages you read a news read these 4 000 Pages you read a news read these 4 000 Pages you read a news story in a newspaper and that new story story in a newspaper and that new story story in a newspaper and that new story will be very very heavily slanted will be very very heavily slanted will be very very heavily slanted towards you know if if you say so sea towards you know if if you say so sea towards you know if if you say so sea levels could rise somewhere between one levels could rise somewhere between one levels could rise somewhere between one and three foot what do you hear yeah you and three foot what do you hear yeah you and three foot what do you hear yeah you obviously hear the three foot three foot obviously hear the three foot three foot obviously hear the three foot three foot is just you know more fun more scary is just you know more fun more scary is just you know more fun more scary more interesting than one foot uh and more interesting than one foot uh and more interesting than one foot uh and and it's that way with all of these you and it's that way with all of these you and it's that way with all of these you know so what what's the prediction for know so what what's the prediction for know so what what's the prediction for for temperature arises it's uh somewhere for temperature arises it's uh somewhere for temperature arises it's uh somewhere from not very scary to pretty damn scary from not very scary to pretty damn scary from not very scary to pretty damn scary uh and again you hear the pretty damn uh and again you hear the pretty damn uh and again you hear the pretty damn scary all the time uh and and then scary all the time uh and and then scary all the time uh and and then there's there's obviously always there's there's obviously always there's there's obviously always researchers who are saying well but researchers who are saying well but researchers who are saying well but actually it could be a little more scary actually it could be a little more scary actually it could be a little more scary than that and then they're likewise than that and then they're likewise than that and then they're likewise researchers who say well you know it's researchers who say well you know it's researchers who say well you know it's probably not going to be as scary as probably not going to be as scary as probably not going to be as scary as that and most of the journalists will that and most of the journalists will that and most of the journalists will you know interview do you really put the you know interview do you really put the you know interview do you really put the blame fundamentally on the on the blame fundamentally on the on the blame fundamentally on the on the journalists on the media setup look journalists on the media setup look journalists on the media setup look media is simply trying to get clicks or media is simply trying to get clicks or media is simply trying to get clicks or sell newspapers and if if you were just sell newspapers and if if you were just sell newspapers and if if you were just going to say this is not a big issue it going to say this is not a big issue it going to say this is not a big issue it just doesn't sell anything but I think just doesn't sell anything but I think just doesn't sell anything but I think you're probably much better able to you're probably much better able to you're probably much better able to address this well no I address this well no I address this well no I folks can Google for my name revkin and folks can Google for my name revkin and folks can Google for my name revkin and the words front page thought the words front page thought the words front page thought in The Newsroom in The Newsroom in The Newsroom every afternoon now we have a 24 7 News every afternoon now we have a 24 7 News every afternoon now we have a 24 7 News cycle so it's different but cycle so it's different but cycle so it's different but back in the day of the New York Times

back in the day of the New York Times back in the day of the New York Times when it was a flourishing print when it was a flourishing print when it was a flourishing print institution every afternoon there was a institution every afternoon there was a institution every afternoon there was a front page meeting and the big Pupa front page meeting and the big Pupa front page meeting and the big Pupa editors to go in there and the desk editors to go in there and the desk editors to go in there and the desk editors come in with their pitches for editors come in with their pitches for editors come in with their pitches for the day the day the day and my friend Corey Dean who is the and my friend Corey Dean who is the and my friend Corey Dean who is the science editor for chunk of my time science editor for chunk of my time science editor for chunk of my time uh you know I remember having a uh you know I remember having a uh you know I remember having a conversation with her about some new conversation with her about some new conversation with her about some new study of I think it was Greenland the study of I think it was Greenland the study of I think it was Greenland the ice sheet and I laid it out for her and ice sheet and I laid it out for her and ice sheet and I laid it out for her and she said where's the front page thought she said where's the front page thought she said where's the front page thought in that in that in that so we're all set up to look for the so we're all set up to look for the so we're all set up to look for the that's scary but and the News that's scary but and the News that's scary but and the News environment has gotten so much worse environment has gotten so much worse environment has gotten so much worse than than 10 or 20 years ago at least than than 10 or 20 years ago at least than than 10 or 20 years ago at least you had filters and you had filters and you had filters and limited number of outlets and there was limited number of outlets and there was limited number of outlets and there was some sense you could track what's good some sense you could track what's good some sense you could track what's good or bad there's lots of problems with or bad there's lots of problems with or bad there's lots of problems with that system too but now you have an that system too but now you have an that system too but now you have an information Buffet information Buffet information Buffet so if you're if you want to be alarmed so if you're if you want to be alarmed so if you're if you want to be alarmed or you want to be con or you want to be con or you want to be con stay in the tribe of those who think stay in the tribe of those who think stay in the tribe of those who think this is utter bull you can find your this is utter bull you can find your this is utter bull you can find your flow flow flow and that that has led and that that has led and that that has led but getting back to this specific but getting back to this specific but getting back to this specific question I think the 2018 ipcc report question I think the 2018 ipcc report question I think the 2018 ipcc report which was a special report commissioned which was a special report commissioned which was a special report commissioned to learn about the difference between to learn about the difference between to learn about the difference between 1.5 degrees of warming and two which 1.5 degrees of warming and two which 1.5 degrees of warming and two which sounds so weird and technocratic and sounds so weird and technocratic and sounds so weird and technocratic and complicated that's the one that complicated that's the one that complicated that's the one that generated the whole meme about eight generated the whole meme about eight generated the whole meme about eight years left 12 years years left 12 years years left 12 years and that's the one this was the uh the and that's the one this was the uh the and that's the one this was the uh the idea that there's a point we're gonna if idea that there's a point we're gonna if idea that there's a point we're gonna if we don't we don't we don't cut emissions in half by whatever it was

cut emissions in half by whatever it was cut emissions in half by whatever it was 2015. we're doomed that emerged from 2015. we're doomed that emerged from 2015. we're doomed that emerged from that specific report and it wasn't that specific report and it wasn't that specific report and it wasn't something that was in the report it was something that was in the report it was something that was in the report it was in the spin around the report and that's in the spin around the report and that's in the spin around the report and that's what captivated Greta appropriately as a what captivated Greta appropriately as a what captivated Greta appropriately as a young person going you know and with her young person going you know and with her young person going you know and with her unique vantage point and stuff and that unique vantage point and stuff and that unique vantage point and stuff and that report I still need to dig in and write report I still need to dig in and write report I still need to dig in and write something deeper about something deeper about something deeper about what happened with that particular what happened with that particular what happened with that particular Dynamics created this recent burst of Dynamics created this recent burst of Dynamics created this recent burst of resumed rhetoric that that I think resumed rhetoric that that I think resumed rhetoric that that I think you're focusing on and it's all in the you're focusing on and it's all in the you're focusing on and it's all in the external interpretations which external interpretations which external interpretations which journalism laps up journalism laps up journalism laps up because we're looking for the front page because we're looking for the front page because we're looking for the front page thought but it's not just the thought but it's not just the thought but it's not just the journalists it's the whole system uh journalists it's the whole system uh journalists it's the whole system uh ngos environmental groups if you're if ngos environmental groups if you're if ngos environmental groups if you're if in developing country uh well-meaning in developing country uh well-meaning in developing country uh well-meaning leaders in developing countries leaders in developing countries leaders in developing countries because of the structure of this treaty because of the structure of this treaty because of the structure of this treaty that goes back to 1992 that's the Paris that goes back to 1992 that's the Paris that goes back to 1992 that's the Paris agreement is part of agreement is part of agreement is part of they are now um they are now um they are now um really looking for a way to portray this really looking for a way to portray this really looking for a way to portray this as a CO2 problem not a vulnerability as a CO2 problem not a vulnerability as a CO2 problem not a vulnerability well there's a vulnerability aspect but well there's a vulnerability aspect but well there's a vulnerability aspect but like in Pakistan they're they're um like in Pakistan they're they're um like in Pakistan they're they're um climate Minister which they didn't even climate Minister which they didn't even climate Minister which they didn't even have a climate Minister five years ago have a climate Minister five years ago have a climate Minister five years ago is blaming everything that happened in is blaming everything that happened in is blaming everything that happened in Pakistan on carbon dioxide warming the Pakistan on carbon dioxide warming the Pakistan on carbon dioxide warming the climate creatings when a lot of what was climate creatings when a lot of what was climate creatings when a lot of what was going on was also on the ground and you going on was also on the ground and you going on was also on the ground and you can blame colonialism Pakistan's history can blame colonialism Pakistan's history can blame colonialism Pakistan's history all kinds of things all kinds of things all kinds of things but but under the treaty you want it to but but under the treaty you want it to but but under the treaty you want it to be about CO2 because that puts the onus be about CO2 because that puts the onus be about CO2 because that puts the onus on rich countries you're not paying us

on rich countries you're not paying us on rich countries you're not paying us where's our money and they're right you where's our money and they're right you where's our money and they're right you know in the context of what everyone know in the context of what everyone know in the context of what everyone agreed to there was supposed to be 100 agreed to there was supposed to be 100 agreed to there was supposed to be 100 billion dollars a year billion dollars a year billion dollars a year from rich countries to poor countries from rich countries to poor countries from rich countries to poor countries starting in 2020 it didn't happen it's starting in 2020 it didn't happen it's starting in 2020 it didn't happen it's like basically like basically like basically some money is Flowing but it's not some money is Flowing but it's not some money is Flowing but it's not really made up of money yeah and so so really made up of money yeah and so so really made up of money yeah and so so that whole dynamic they latch onto the that whole dynamic they latch onto the that whole dynamic they latch onto the climate science and they they you know climate science and they they you know climate science and they they you know so they're there and they're very handy so they're there and they're very handy so they're there and they're very handy quotable people quotable people quotable people and you have a Justice angle you have and you have a Justice angle you have and you have a Justice angle you have bad guys and good guys bad guys and good guys bad guys and good guys which fits all these narrative threads which fits all these narrative threads which fits all these narrative threads that come together into this information that come together into this information that come together into this information storm we're still living with and and storm we're still living with and and storm we're still living with and and then of course it's not Pakistan's fault then of course it's not Pakistan's fault then of course it's not Pakistan's fault either right I mean it also actually either right I mean it also actually either right I mean it also actually almost all leaders now say it's because almost all leaders now say it's because almost all leaders now say it's because of climate because then it's not you of climate because then it's not you of climate because then it's not you know we didn't do anything wrong uh in know we didn't do anything wrong uh in know we didn't do anything wrong uh in Germany for instance uh when we had that Germany for instance uh when we had that Germany for instance uh when we had that flood last year it's it's not impossible flood last year it's it's not impossible flood last year it's it's not impossible that the climate had a part in in that that the climate had a part in in that that the climate had a part in in that but it's very very clear that the main but it's very very clear that the main but it's very very clear that the main reason why so many people died in reason why so many people died in reason why so many people died in Germany and Belgium was because the Germany and Belgium was because the Germany and Belgium was because the Alarm Systems didn't work and this was Alarm Systems didn't work and this was Alarm Systems didn't work and this was plainly the local leaders in Germany now plainly the local leaders in Germany now plainly the local leaders in Germany now if I'm stuck here and basically have if I'm stuck here and basically have if I'm stuck here and basically have caused the you know the death of 200 caused the you know the death of 200 caused the you know the death of 200 people would I rather say yeah that's on people would I rather say yeah that's on people would I rather say yeah that's on me or what I climate it's just such an me or what I climate it's just such an me or what I climate it's just such an easy scapegoat I don't want to place it easy scapegoat I don't want to place it easy scapegoat I don't want to place it all in the journalists I think because all in the journalists I think because all in the journalists I think because there's a lot of if I were to think there's a lot of if I were to think there's a lot of if I were to think about what did you call it front page about what did you call it front page about what did you call it front page thought there's a lot of really thought there's a lot of really thought there's a lot of really um um um narratives that uh result in destruction

narratives that uh result in destruction narratives that uh result in destruction of the human species so nuclear war of the human species so nuclear war of the human species so nuclear war pandemics all that kind of stuff it pandemics all that kind of stuff it pandemics all that kind of stuff it seems that climate is a sticky one so seems that climate is a sticky one so seems that climate is a sticky one so the fact that it's sticky means there's the fact that it's sticky means there's the fact that it's sticky means there's other interests at play like you guys other interests at play like you guys other interests at play like you guys are talking about in terms of politics are talking about in terms of politics are talking about in terms of politics all that kind of stuff so it's not just all that kind of stuff so it's not just all that kind of stuff so it's not just a journalists I feel like journalists a journalists I feel like journalists a journalists I feel like journalists will try anything for the front page but will try anything for the front page but will try anything for the front page but it won't you won't stick unless there is it won't you won't stick unless there is it won't you won't stick unless there is bigger interest to play for which these bigger interest to play for which these bigger interest to play for which these narratives are useful so journalists narratives are useful so journalists narratives are useful so journalists will just throw stuff out there and see will just throw stuff out there and see will just throw stuff out there and see if it gets clicks and sure if it gets clicks and sure if it gets clicks and sure um it all it's it's like a first Spark um it all it's it's like a first Spark um it all it's it's like a first Spark maybe uh it's maybe a tiny Catalyst of maybe uh it's maybe a tiny Catalyst of maybe uh it's maybe a tiny Catalyst of the initial stuffs but it has to be the initial stuffs but it has to be the initial stuffs but it has to be picked up by the politicians by interest picked up by the politicians by interest picked up by the politicians by interest groups and all that kind of stuff let me groups and all that kind of stuff let me groups and all that kind of stuff let me ask you if you want about the um ask you if you want about the um ask you if you want about the um first part of the subtitle how climate first part of the subtitle how climate first part of the subtitle how climate change Panic costs us trillions change Panic costs us trillions change Panic costs us trillions how does climate change depending cost how does climate change depending cost how does climate change depending cost us trillions so we're basically deciding us trillions so we're basically deciding us trillions so we're basically deciding to make policies that'll have fairly to make policies that'll have fairly to make policies that'll have fairly little impact even in 50 or 100 years little impact even in 50 or 100 years little impact even in 50 or 100 years that literally cost trillions of dollars that literally cost trillions of dollars that literally cost trillions of dollars so you know give you two examples so uh so you know give you two examples so uh so you know give you two examples so uh the European Union is trying to go to the European Union is trying to go to the European Union is trying to go to Net Zero so our attempt to go halfway Net Zero so our attempt to go halfway Net Zero so our attempt to go halfway there by 2030 uh will cost about a there by 2030 uh will cost about a there by 2030 uh will cost about a trillion dollars a year uh and yet the trillion dollars a year uh and yet the trillion dollars a year uh and yet the net impact will be almost unmeasurable net impact will be almost unmeasurable net impact will be almost unmeasurable by the end of the century why is that by the end of the century why is that by the end of the century why is that that's because the EU and the rich that's because the EU and the rich that's because the EU and the rich countries is a fairly small part of the countries is a fairly small part of the countries is a fairly small part of the emissions that are going to come out in emissions that are going to come out in emissions that are going to come out in the 21st century now we used to be a big

the 21st century now we used to be a big the 21st century now we used to be a big part of it as that's mainly because part of it as that's mainly because part of it as that's mainly because nobody else you know it was just the US nobody else you know it was just the US nobody else you know it was just the US and and Europe and a few others have put and and Europe and a few others have put and and Europe and a few others have put out CO2 in the in the 20th century so we out CO2 in the in the 20th century so we out CO2 in the in the 20th century so we used to be big used to be big used to be big but in the 21st century will be a small but in the 21st century will be a small but in the 21st century will be a small bit player and so we're basically bit player and so we're basically bit player and so we're basically spending a lot of money and remember a spending a lot of money and remember a spending a lot of money and remember a trillion dollars is a lot of money that trillion dollars is a lot of money that trillion dollars is a lot of money that could have been spent on a lot of things could have been spent on a lot of things could have been spent on a lot of things that could have made you know Humanity that could have made you know Humanity that could have made you know Humanity better on something that will only make better on something that will only make better on something that will only make us a tiny bit better now it will do some us a tiny bit better now it will do some us a tiny bit better now it will do some good good good but you know the reasonable estimates is but you know the reasonable estimates is but you know the reasonable estimates is if you do a cost benefit analysis and if you do a cost benefit analysis and if you do a cost benefit analysis and again you know technically it's really again you know technically it's really again you know technically it's really really complicated but the basic idea is really complicated but the basic idea is really complicated but the basic idea is very very simple you just simply say very very simple you just simply say very very simple you just simply say what are all the costs on one side and what are all the costs on one side and what are all the costs on one side and what are all the benefits so the costs what are all the benefits so the costs what are all the benefits so the costs are mainly that we have to live with are mainly that we have to live with are mainly that we have to live with more expensive energy you have to forego more expensive energy you have to forego more expensive energy you have to forego some opportunities you have to have you some opportunities you have to have you some opportunities you have to have you know more complicated services that kind know more complicated services that kind know more complicated services that kind of thing the benefit is that you cut of thing the benefit is that you cut of thing the benefit is that you cut carbon emissions and that eventually carbon emissions and that eventually carbon emissions and that eventually means that you'll have less climate means that you'll have less climate means that you'll have less climate damage you'll have lower temperature damage you'll have lower temperature damage you'll have lower temperature rises and so on if you try to weigh up rises and so on if you try to weigh up rises and so on if you try to weigh up all those it's reasonable to assume that all those it's reasonable to assume that all those it's reasonable to assume that the EU policies will deliver for every the EU policies will deliver for every the EU policies will deliver for every dollar you spend it'll deliver less than dollar you spend it'll deliver less than dollar you spend it'll deliver less than a dollar probably about 30 cents back on a dollar probably about 30 cents back on a dollar probably about 30 cents back on the dollar which is a really bad way to the dollar which is a really bad way to the dollar which is a really bad way to spend dollars because there's lots of spend dollars because there's lots of spend dollars because there's lots of lots of other things out in the world lots of other things out in the world lots of other things out in the world where you could do you know multiple you where you could do you know multiple you where you could do you know multiple you know so for instance if you think about know so for instance if you think about know so for instance if you think about tuberculosis or uh education of small tuberculosis or uh education of small tuberculosis or uh education of small kids or nutrition for small kids and kids or nutrition for small kids and kids or nutrition for small kids and that those kinds of things every dollar that those kinds of things every dollar that those kinds of things every dollar you spend will do like 30 to 100 worth

you spend will do like 30 to 100 worth you spend will do like 30 to 100 worth of good so they're much much better of good so they're much much better of good so they're much much better places where you could spend this money places where you could spend this money places where you could spend this money likewise uh the us is thinking of going likewise uh the us is thinking of going likewise uh the us is thinking of going Net Zero by 20 50. it's not actually Net Zero by 20 50. it's not actually Net Zero by 20 50. it's not actually going to happen but it's sort of a thing going to happen but it's sort of a thing going to happen but it's sort of a thing that everybody talks about Biden is that everybody talks about Biden is that everybody talks about Biden is talking a lot about it if you look at talking a lot about it if you look at talking a lot about it if you look at the models that indicate how how much the models that indicate how how much the models that indicate how how much will that cost it's not impossible that will that cost it's not impossible that will that cost it's not impossible that this will cost somewhere between two and this will cost somewhere between two and this will cost somewhere between two and four trillion dollars per year by four trillion dollars per year by four trillion dollars per year by mid-century and remember if the US went mid-century and remember if the US went mid-century and remember if the US went carbon neutral today carbon neutral today carbon neutral today by the end of the century that would by the end of the century that would by the end of the century that would reduce temperatures by about 0.3 degree reduce temperatures by about 0.3 degree reduce temperatures by about 0.3 degree Fahrenheit Fahrenheit Fahrenheit so you would just be able to measure it so you would just be able to measure it so you would just be able to measure it probably wouldn't in real life but you probably wouldn't in real life but you probably wouldn't in real life but you know if you'd just be able to measure it know if you'd just be able to measure it know if you'd just be able to measure it again this is not saying that there's again this is not saying that there's again this is not saying that there's not some good coming out of it but not some good coming out of it but not some good coming out of it but you're basically spending an enormous you're basically spending an enormous you're basically spending an enormous amount of money on fairly small benefits amount of money on fairly small benefits amount of money on fairly small benefits so that's that's my main point yeah this so that's that's my main point yeah this so that's that's my main point yeah this reminds me of what we were saying reminds me of what we were saying reminds me of what we were saying earlier about um earlier about um earlier about um the things that models don't integrate the things that models don't integrate the things that models don't integrate and the things that cost benefit leave and the things that cost benefit leave and the things that cost benefit leave out because you really can't go there out because you really can't go there out because you really can't go there one of the issues facing the world right one of the issues facing the world right one of the issues facing the world right now is the reality that we're reminded now is the reality that we're reminded now is the reality that we're reminded of that energy availability is a of that energy availability is a of that energy availability is a geopolitical geopolitical geopolitical destabilizer if you have uneven access destabilizer if you have uneven access destabilizer if you have uneven access to energy to energy to energy and you have Vladimir Putin coming into and you have Vladimir Putin coming into and you have Vladimir Putin coming into office or something else happening office or something else happening office or something else happening that disrupts that system you're you're that disrupts that system you're you're that disrupts that system you're you're vastly increasing poverty you this is vastly increasing poverty you this is vastly increasing poverty you this is playing out across the world fertilizer playing out across the world fertilizer playing out across the world fertilizer process fertilizer comes from gas process fertilizer comes from gas process fertilizer comes from gas um natural gas

um natural gas um natural gas um if you can Envision a world later in um if you can Envision a world later in um if you can Envision a world later in the century where we're no longer the century where we're no longer the century where we're no longer beholden on this material in the ground beholden on this material in the ground beholden on this material in the ground at least fossil fuels you know Cobalt at least fossil fuels you know Cobalt at least fossil fuels you know Cobalt and lithium for batteries and lithium for batteries and lithium for batteries that's pretty cool you know because that's pretty cool you know because that's pretty cool you know because you're taking away geopolitical you're taking away geopolitical you're taking away geopolitical instability and instability and instability and you don't but that's not factored in you don't but that's not factored in you don't but that's not factored in right that's like way outside of what right that's like way outside of what right that's like way outside of what you'd factor in but it does feel like to you'd factor in but it does feel like to you'd factor in but it does feel like to me you know if I was going to make the me you know if I was going to make the me you know if I was going to make the case for case for case for you can choose your trillions whatever you can choose your trillions whatever you can choose your trillions whatever that investing big that investing big that investing big isn't for these marginal things it's for isn't for these marginal things it's for isn't for these marginal things it's for looking at the big picture of Worlds of looking at the big picture of Worlds of looking at the big picture of Worlds of abundant energy that doesn't come from abundant energy that doesn't come from abundant energy that doesn't come from from a black rock or a gooey liquid that from a black rock or a gooey liquid that from a black rock or a gooey liquid that when you burn it creates but isn't that when you burn it creates but isn't that when you burn it creates but isn't that what the proposals are is investing in what the proposals are is investing in what the proposals are is investing in different kinds of energy renewable different kinds of energy renewable different kinds of energy renewable energy so what is but I don't think most energy so what is but I don't think most energy so what is but I don't think most people are making that case what's in people are making that case what's in people are making that case what's in the in the trillion and the T costs the in the trillion and the T costs the in the trillion and the T costs what's in corporate what are the big what's in corporate what are the big what's in corporate what are the big costs there so the big cost is that you costs there so the big cost is that you costs there so the big cost is that you have slightly lower productivity gains have slightly lower productivity gains have slightly lower productivity gains so basically again you know this is sort so basically again you know this is sort so basically again you know this is sort of the opposite of what we just talked of the opposite of what we just talked of the opposite of what we just talked about by climate change we're we're about by climate change we're we're about by climate change we're we're going to get richer and richer in the going to get richer and richer in the going to get richer and richer in the world this is all models also the UN world this is all models also the UN world this is all models also the UN this is really the only way that you can this is really the only way that you can this is really the only way that you can get big climate changes because get big climate changes because get big climate changes because everybody gets a lot richer so also the everybody gets a lot richer so also the everybody gets a lot richer so also the developing world gets a lot richer so developing world gets a lot richer so developing world gets a lot richer so we're likely to get richer but one of we're likely to get richer but one of we're likely to get richer but one of the things that drive uh wealth the things that drive uh wealth the things that drive uh wealth production is the fact that we have production is the fact that we have production is the fact that we have ample and cheap and available energy if ample and cheap and available energy if ample and cheap and available energy if you make that slightly harder which is

you make that slightly harder which is you make that slightly harder which is what you do with climate legislation what you do with climate legislation what you do with climate legislation because you're basically telling people because you're basically telling people because you're basically telling people people you have to use a source of people you have to use a source of people you have to use a source of energy that you'd rather not have used energy that you'd rather not have used energy that you'd rather not have used had because if people wanted to do it had because if people wanted to do it had because if people wanted to do it we'd already solved the problem so we'd already solved the problem so we'd already solved the problem so you're basically tell them you've got to you're basically tell them you've got to you're basically tell them you've got to use this wind turbine instead of this uh use this wind turbine instead of this uh use this wind turbine instead of this uh natural gas plant or you know that kind natural gas plant or you know that kind natural gas plant or you know that kind of thing it makes it's it's not that you of thing it makes it's it's not that you of thing it makes it's it's not that you suddenly become poor or anything it suddenly become poor or anything it suddenly become poor or anything it simply makes production slightly harder simply makes production slightly harder simply makes production slightly harder what do you do when when the wind is not what do you do when when the wind is not what do you do when when the wind is not blowing kind of thing and of course we blowing kind of thing and of course we blowing kind of thing and of course we have lots of ways to somewhat mitigate have lots of ways to somewhat mitigate have lots of ways to somewhat mitigate that but it's a little more costly a that but it's a little more costly a that but it's a little more costly a little more complicated a little less little more complicated a little less little more complicated a little less convenient and that means you grow a convenient and that means you grow a convenient and that means you grow a little less that's the main problem with little less that's the main problem with little less that's the main problem with with these policies that it simply makes with these policies that it simply makes with these policies that it simply makes you somewhat less well-off the energy you somewhat less well-off the energy you somewhat less well-off the energy becomes more inefficient yes so let me becomes more inefficient yes so let me becomes more inefficient yes so let me challenge you here challenge you here challenge you here uh try to steal man some critics so you uh try to steal man some critics so you uh try to steal man some critics so you have critics have critics have critics uh uh uh uh I would love you to take it seriously uh I would love you to take it seriously uh I would love you to take it seriously and sort of consider this criticism and and sort of consider this criticism and and sort of consider this criticism and try to steal me in their their case uh try to steal me in their their case uh try to steal me in their their case uh there's a bunch uh I could mention uh there's a bunch uh I could mention uh there's a bunch uh I could mention uh this this list of criticisms from Bob this this list of criticisms from Bob this this list of criticisms from Bob ward in London School of Economics I ward in London School of Economics I ward in London School of Economics I don't know if you're familiar with him don't know if you're familiar with him don't know if you're familiar with him but just on this point in terms of one but just on this point in terms of one but just on this point in terms of one of the big cause being an energy of the big cause being an energy of the big cause being an energy he criticizes your recent book in saying he criticizes your recent book in saying he criticizes your recent book in saying you consider the 143 billion in annual you consider the 143 billion in annual you consider the 143 billion in annual support for renewable energy but ignore support for renewable energy but ignore support for renewable energy but ignore the 300 billion in fossil fuel subsidies

the 300 billion in fossil fuel subsidies the 300 billion in fossil fuel subsidies so a lot of the criticism has to do so a lot of the criticism has to do so a lot of the criticism has to do with well you're cherry picking the with well you're cherry picking the with well you're cherry picking the models which the models are always models which the models are always models which the models are always cherry picking and you anyway so um but cherry picking and you anyway so um but cherry picking and you anyway so um but you know you want to take those you know you want to take those you know you want to take those seriously so uh he cleansed it you seriously so uh he cleansed it you seriously so uh he cleansed it you ignore ignore ignore you're not uh fully modeling the costs you're not uh fully modeling the costs you're not uh fully modeling the costs the the trade-off here how expensive is the the trade-off here how expensive is the the trade-off here how expensive is the renewable energy and how expensive the renewable energy and how expensive the renewable energy and how expensive is the fossil fuel can you still manage is the fossil fuel can you still manage is the fossil fuel can you still manage case sure so uh two things uh uh the case sure so uh two things uh uh the case sure so uh two things uh uh the first the quote it's absolutely true first the quote it's absolutely true first the quote it's absolutely true that the world spends a large a chunk of that the world spends a large a chunk of that the world spends a large a chunk of money on fossil fuels and that's just money on fossil fuels and that's just money on fossil fuels and that's just stupid and we should stop doing it we stupid and we should stop doing it we stupid and we should stop doing it we should also recognize that this is not should also recognize that this is not should also recognize that this is not rich countries this is not the countries rich countries this is not the countries rich countries this is not the countries where we're talking about climate change where we're talking about climate change where we're talking about climate change this is poor countries this is Saudi this is poor countries this is Saudi this is poor countries this is Saudi Arabia uh no that's actually not a Arabia uh no that's actually not a Arabia uh no that's actually not a terribly poor country uh it's China it's terribly poor country uh it's China it's terribly poor country uh it's China it's Indonesia it's uh uh Russia uh it's Indonesia it's uh uh Russia uh it's Indonesia it's uh uh Russia uh it's places where you're basically paying off places where you're basically paying off places where you're basically paying off your population just like that you your population just like that you your population just like that you subsidized bread you make sure that they subsidized bread you make sure that they subsidized bread you make sure that they don't rebel by making cheap uh fuels don't rebel by making cheap uh fuels don't rebel by making cheap uh fuels available that's dumb but it's not like available that's dumb but it's not like available that's dumb but it's not like they you know they don't know what they you know they don't know what they you know they don't know what they're doing they're mostly doing this they're doing they're mostly doing this they're doing they're mostly doing this for things that have nothing to do with for things that have nothing to do with for things that have nothing to do with climate so I totally agree we should get climate so I totally agree we should get climate so I totally agree we should get rid of it it's hard to do Indonesia is rid of it it's hard to do Indonesia is rid of it it's hard to do Indonesia is actually somewhat uh managed to to get actually somewhat uh managed to to get actually somewhat uh managed to to get rid of it because remember if you spend rid of it because remember if you spend rid of it because remember if you spend a lot of money on fossil fuel subsidies a lot of money on fossil fuel subsidies a lot of money on fossil fuel subsidies you're basically subsidizing the rich you're basically subsidizing the rich you're basically subsidizing the rich because you know poor people don't have because you know poor people don't have because you know poor people don't have a car it's the rich people who can now

a car it's the rich people who can now a car it's the rich people who can now buy you know a very cheap gasoline buy you know a very cheap gasoline buy you know a very cheap gasoline that's you know that's unjust as well so that's you know that's unjust as well so that's you know that's unjust as well so it's dumb in so many different ways I it's dumb in so many different ways I it's dumb in so many different ways I would never argue that you shouldn't would never argue that you shouldn't would never argue that you shouldn't done I've plenty of time said we should done I've plenty of time said we should done I've plenty of time said we should stop that but we should also recognize stop that but we should also recognize stop that but we should also recognize these are mostly regimes that are not these are mostly regimes that are not these are mostly regimes that are not going to be taken over either by my going to be taken over either by my going to be taken over either by my argument or Bob Wards or anyone else's argument or Bob Wards or anyone else's argument or Bob Wards or anyone else's they're doing this for totally different they're doing this for totally different they're doing this for totally different reasons now on the model side reasons now on the model side reasons now on the model side there is virtually no model that don't there is virtually no model that don't there is virtually no model that don't show economic model that don't show this show economic model that don't show this show economic model that don't show this has a cost and that's the fundamental has a cost and that's the fundamental has a cost and that's the fundamental point is that the you know this is sort point is that the you know this is sort point is that the you know this is sort of a basic point from from economics the of a basic point from from economics the of a basic point from from economics the system is already working most system is already working most system is already working most effectively because if it wasn't you effectively because if it wasn't you effectively because if it wasn't you know you could actually make money know you could actually make money know you could actually make money changing over so if you want to have a changing over so if you want to have a changing over so if you want to have a change outside of what the system is change outside of what the system is change outside of what the system is already doing it's because you're saying already doing it's because you're saying already doing it's because you're saying you have to do something that you rather you have to do something that you rather you have to do something that you rather not want to do namely use an energy not want to do namely use an energy not want to do namely use an energy source that is less convenient or less source that is less convenient or less source that is less convenient or less cost effective and so on and that will cost effective and so on and that will cost effective and so on and that will incur a cost now there's a huge incur a cost now there's a huge incur a cost now there's a huge discussion about just exactly how much discussion about just exactly how much discussion about just exactly how much cost is that so there's definitely a cost is that so there's definitely a cost is that so there's definitely a cost is the cost going to be one or five cost is the cost going to be one or five cost is the cost going to be one or five trillion that's absolutely a discussion trillion that's absolutely a discussion trillion that's absolutely a discussion about where do you take your models from about where do you take your models from about where do you take your models from I try to do and and again this is not I try to do and and again this is not I try to do and and again this is not possible everywhere I try to actually possible everywhere I try to actually possible everywhere I try to actually take the average of all of the economic take the average of all of the economic take the average of all of the economic models so there's a there's a group models so there's a there's a group models so there's a there's a group called the Stanford energy modeling called the Stanford energy modeling called the Stanford energy modeling Forum which tries to pull together all Forum which tries to pull together all Forum which tries to pull together all these different groups that do the these different groups that do the these different groups that do the modeling so some models a lot of this modeling so some models a lot of this modeling so some models a lot of this cost actually comes down to uh uh the

cost actually comes down to uh uh the cost actually comes down to uh uh the fact that we don't quite know how much fact that we don't quite know how much fact that we don't quite know how much more fossil fuels you're going to need more fossil fuels you're going to need more fossil fuels you're going to need in the future and so if you're not gonna in the future and so if you're not gonna in the future and so if you're not gonna if your projections are you're not going if your projections are you're not going if your projections are you're not going to use that much the cost of reducing it to use that much the cost of reducing it to use that much the cost of reducing it is going to be very small if you think is going to be very small if you think is going to be very small if you think you're going to use a ton of extra you're going to use a ton of extra you're going to use a ton of extra fossil fuels and you have to reduce that fossil fuels and you have to reduce that fossil fuels and you have to reduce that the cost is going to be bigger so I the cost is going to be bigger so I the cost is going to be bigger so I think that's just one of the variables think that's just one of the variables think that's just one of the variables that's oh yeah yeah and there's many that's oh yeah yeah and there's many that's oh yeah yeah and there's many many many more I think the the point many many more I think the the point many many more I think the the point here is to say that if you take the here is to say that if you take the here is to say that if you take the average of all the best model is a sort average of all the best model is a sort average of all the best model is a sort of aggregated for instance at the of aggregated for instance at the of aggregated for instance at the Stanford energy modeling form you're Stanford energy modeling form you're Stanford energy modeling form you're pretty secure ground pretty secure ground pretty secure ground and and uh so so again I I would argue and and uh so so again I I would argue and and uh so so again I I would argue that uh Bob Ward yes I've had a lot of that uh Bob Ward yes I've had a lot of that uh Bob Ward yes I've had a lot of run-ins with Bob board uh uh and and he run-ins with Bob board uh uh and and he run-ins with Bob board uh uh and and he has a very different uh set of views on has a very different uh set of views on has a very different uh set of views on on things uh but but I I just don't on things uh but but I I just don't on things uh but but I I just don't think he's right in saying that I'm think he's right in saying that I'm think he's right in saying that I'm cherry picking well yes and I mean he cherry picking well yes and I mean he cherry picking well yes and I mean he also has similar criticism about the also has similar criticism about the also has similar criticism about the estimate of the EU cost of climate estimate of the EU cost of climate estimate of the EU cost of climate action uh based on the knob 2013 model action uh based on the knob 2013 model action uh based on the knob 2013 model But ultimately these criticism have to But ultimately these criticism have to But ultimately these criticism have to do is like what are the sources for the do is like what are the sources for the do is like what are the sources for the different models and and just very different models and and just very different models and and just very briefly I mean I'm I'm laying it out briefly I mean I'm I'm laying it out briefly I mean I'm I'm laying it out very transparently where I get these very transparently where I get these very transparently where I get these models of where I get these estimates models of where I get these estimates models of where I get these estimates from in the book I've really tried to from in the book I've really tried to from in the book I've really tried to document this and yes I mean look document this and yes I mean look document this and yes I mean look there's nobody who sort of has all the there's nobody who sort of has all the there's nobody who sort of has all the information and gets everything right in information and gets everything right in information and gets everything right in all of these areas uh I I think most of all of these areas uh I I think most of all of these areas uh I I think most of uh uh but Ward's uh argument is is not a uh uh but Ward's uh argument is is not a uh uh but Ward's uh argument is is not a uh a good faith effort to uh to sort of

uh a good faith effort to uh to sort of uh a good faith effort to uh to sort of uh improve on on these estimates he's uh improve on on these estimates he's uh improve on on these estimates he's he's right and saying some of these he's right and saying some of these he's right and saying some of these estimates we only have a few estimates estimates we only have a few estimates estimates we only have a few estimates and you know yeah I'd like to have more and you know yeah I'd like to have more and you know yeah I'd like to have more of them I one thing I should mention is of them I one thing I should mention is of them I one thing I should mention is that there is very little interest in that there is very little interest in that there is very little interest in general and there's very little funding general and there's very little funding general and there's very little funding in finding out how much do our climate in finding out how much do our climate in finding out how much do our climate policies cost because that's you know policies cost because that's you know policies cost because that's you know that's just inconvenient to everyone that's just inconvenient to everyone that's just inconvenient to everyone yeah in in the whole game you know who yeah in in the whole game you know who yeah in in the whole game you know who wants to know that that you know for wants to know that that you know for wants to know that that you know for instance uh uh would would you want to instance uh uh would would you want to instance uh uh would would you want to fund uh something that says that the fund uh something that says that the fund uh something that says that the inflation reduction Act is not going to inflation reduction Act is not going to inflation reduction Act is not going to be very effective of course you don't be very effective of course you don't be very effective of course you don't want to do that right so so it's it want to do that right so so it's it want to do that right so so it's it again it's a little bit the you know again it's a little bit the you know again it's a little bit the you know flock of birds it will look some at flock of birds it will look some at flock of birds it will look some at something else and and what I think is something else and and what I think is something else and and what I think is that given that we're paying for at the that given that we're paying for at the that given that we're paying for at the end this is you know this is public end this is you know this is public end this is you know this is public money we're deciding we're going to money we're deciding we're going to money we're deciding we're going to spend money here rather than there let's spend money here rather than there let's spend money here rather than there let's at least you know look at what are the at least you know look at what are the at least you know look at what are the best estimas out there I would love to best estimas out there I would love to best estimas out there I would love to be have more estimates uh more estimates be have more estimates uh more estimates be have more estimates uh more estimates is always better and just a quick is always better and just a quick is always better and just a quick comment on the good faith part me as a comment on the good faith part me as a comment on the good faith part me as a consumer looking for truth that's hard consumer looking for truth that's hard consumer looking for truth that's hard to find who's good faith and not so it's to find who's good faith and not so it's to find who's good faith and not so it's not only are you looking for not only are you looking for not only are you looking for a sort of accurate information a sort of accurate information a sort of accurate information you're also trying to infer about the you're also trying to infer about the you're also trying to infer about the communicator of that information that's communicator of that information that's communicator of that information that's very difficult it's uh you know you put very difficult it's uh you know you put very difficult it's uh you know you put me on the on the podcast of course I'm me on the on the podcast of course I'm me on the on the podcast of course I'm gonna say I'm a trustworthy guy but yeah gonna say I'm a trustworthy guy but yeah gonna say I'm a trustworthy guy but yeah I mean but and we believe we're I mean but and we believe we're I mean but and we believe we're trustworthy too but trustworthy too but trustworthy too but um you know I've been reading for

um you know I've been reading for um you know I've been reading for various reasons but mostly because I've various reasons but mostly because I've various reasons but mostly because I've been traveling to Ukraine and thinking been traveling to Ukraine and thinking been traveling to Ukraine and thinking and just about the people's and just about the people's and just about the people's um suffering through war I've been um suffering through war I've been um suffering through war I've been reading a lot about World War II and and reading a lot about World War II and and reading a lot about World War II and and Stalin and Hitler and you know from the Stalin and Hitler and you know from the Stalin and Hitler and you know from the perspective of Hitler perspective of Hitler perspective of Hitler uh he really believed he's doing good uh he really believed he's doing good uh he really believed he's doing good for the world and he was for the world and he was for the world and he was communicating from his perspective in communicating from his perspective in communicating from his perspective in good faith good faith good faith um he started to believe I think early um he started to believe I think early um he started to believe I think early on his own propaganda so you're even on his own propaganda so you're even on his own propaganda so you're even your understanding and perception of the your understanding and perception of the your understanding and perception of the world completely shifted so it's it's world completely shifted so it's it's world completely shifted so it's it's very very very difficult to understand very very very difficult to understand very very very difficult to understand who to trust who to trust who to trust um um um and uh just because it's consensus in a and uh just because it's consensus in a and uh just because it's consensus in a particular Community doesn't necessarily particular Community doesn't necessarily particular Community doesn't necessarily mean it's a source of trust so it's a I mean it's a source of trust so it's a I mean it's a source of trust so it's a I mean basically mean basically mean basically I don't know how to operate in this I don't know how to operate in this I don't know how to operate in this world except to have a humility and world except to have a humility and world except to have a humility and constantly question your assumptions and constantly question your assumptions and constantly question your assumptions and but not so much that you're completely but not so much that you're completely but not so much that you're completely out in the ocean not knowing what is out in the ocean not knowing what is out in the ocean not knowing what is true or not so it's this weird weird true or not so it's this weird weird true or not so it's this weird weird world because I I ultimately bigger than world because I I ultimately bigger than world because I I ultimately bigger than climate climate climate my hope is to have institutions that can my hope is to have institutions that can my hope is to have institutions that can be trusted be trusted be trusted and that's been very much under attack and that's been very much under attack and that's been very much under attack um in as as part of the climate debate um in as as part of the climate debate um in as as part of the climate debate as part of the covid debate as part of as part of the covid debate as part of as part of the covid debate as part of all these discussions and science to me all these discussions and science to me all these discussions and science to me is one of the sources is one of the sources is one of the sources of truth and the fact that that's under

of truth and the fact that that's under of truth and the fact that that's under question now is uh something that hurts question now is uh something that hurts question now is uh something that hurts me on many levels uh deeply you said me on many levels uh deeply you said me on many levels uh deeply you said something earlier as I took a note on something earlier as I took a note on something earlier as I took a note on down here and I can't find it about down here and I can't find it about down here and I can't find it about cooperation it was like collaborative cooperation it was like collaborative cooperation it was like collaborative cooperation or something like that sure cooperation or something like that sure cooperation or something like that sure what to me there was a point like in what to me there was a point like in what to me there was a point like in 2013 2013 2013 after just dealing with all everything after just dealing with all everything after just dealing with all everything you've been grappling with what if you you've been grappling with what if you you've been grappling with what if you don't if you know you don't know how don't if you know you don't know how don't if you know you don't know how this is going to work out what do you this is going to work out what do you this is going to work out what do you work on work on work on and I one morning I made a list of words and I one morning I made a list of words and I one morning I made a list of words that kind of summarized that kind of summarized that kind of summarized basically system properties that give basically system properties that give basically system properties that give you confidence in a system trust or in you confidence in a system trust or in you confidence in a system trust or in their transparency is one their transparency is one their transparency is one as you were saying earlier as you were saying earlier as you were saying earlier um um um connectivity is another you know so connectivity is another you know so connectivity is another you know so everyone's connected everyone's connected everyone's connected so on the subsidy issue for example so on the subsidy issue for example so on the subsidy issue for example they're young entrepreneurs in Nairobi they're young entrepreneurs in Nairobi they're young entrepreneurs in Nairobi who are selling ingeniously using who are selling ingeniously using who are selling ingeniously using nairobi's digital currency nairobi's digital currency nairobi's digital currency uh propane the fuel that's in our uh propane the fuel that's in our uh propane the fuel that's in our backyard barbecue grills backyard barbecue grills backyard barbecue grills which comes out of gas Wells but it's a which comes out of gas Wells but it's a which comes out of gas Wells but it's a separate fuel separate fuel separate fuel in little increments that poor people in little increments that poor people in little increments that poor people can use instead of charcoal can use instead of charcoal can use instead of charcoal and LPG subsidies are helping them and LPG subsidies are helping them and LPG subsidies are helping them get people off of charcoal which is a get people off of charcoal which is a get people off of charcoal which is a horrific trade from The Source through horrific trade from The Source through horrific trade from The Source through the Warlords in Somalia and elsewhere the Warlords in Somalia and elsewhere the Warlords in Somalia and elsewhere who are getting the money to the who are getting the money to the who are getting the money to the pollution in houses

pollution in houses pollution in houses so so having so so having so so having be sure being sure when we're having be sure being sure when we're having be sure being sure when we're having these big debates about who the World these big debates about who the World these big debates about who the World Bank is going to give loans to and Bank is going to give loans to and Bank is going to give loans to and drawing a simple line no more fossil drawing a simple line no more fossil drawing a simple line no more fossil fuel subsidies fuel subsidies fuel subsidies hurts a really good valuable small scale but scalable small scale but scalable way to have people not die from cooking way to have people not die from cooking way to have people not die from cooking smoke in their houses and and take down smoke in their houses and and take down smoke in their houses and and take down for us so but that only is considered if for us so but that only is considered if for us so but that only is considered if they're in the conversation so they're in the conversation so they're in the conversation so connectivity full connectivity digital connectivity full connectivity digital connectivity full connectivity digital access so so those entrepreneurs are in access so so those entrepreneurs are in access so so those entrepreneurs are in the mix of people when they're thinking the mix of people when they're thinking the mix of people when they're thinking about subsidies you're not just thinking about subsidies you're not just thinking about subsidies you're not just thinking about big bad ex song you're thinking about big bad ex song you're thinking about big bad ex song you're thinking about this little company in Nairobi about this little company in Nairobi about this little company in Nairobi Pago Pago LPG I think is the name and Pago Pago LPG I think is the name and Pago Pago LPG I think is the name and India the same thing so so you can list India the same thing so so you can list India the same thing so so you can list those properties of systems those properties of systems those properties of systems and the ipcc wasn't originally and the ipcc wasn't originally and the ipcc wasn't originally transparent transparent transparent when I started writing about it in 1988 when I started writing about it in 1988 when I started writing about it in 1988 and 1990 and now it's way more and 1990 and now it's way more and 1990 and now it's way more transparent they have more public review transparent they have more public review transparent they have more public review so it's even better than it was it's so it's even better than it was it's so it's even better than it was it's like a really good example of a science like a really good example of a science like a really good example of a science process of assessing the science process of assessing the science process of assessing the science providing periodic output to the world providing periodic output to the world providing periodic output to the world and iteratively improving the model and iteratively improving the model and iteratively improving the model going forward because of critique going forward because of critique going forward because of critique because because of you know scrutiny and because because of you know scrutiny and because because of you know scrutiny and finding better ways for that to finding better ways for that to finding better ways for that to interface with people so they have interface with people so they have interface with people so they have information they can use from that big information they can use from that big information they can use from that big thing and the media you know are not thing and the media you know are not thing and the media you know are not doing a good job doing a good job doing a good job um because of this front page thoughtism um because of this front page thoughtism um because of this front page thoughtism um but we can all you know I work um but we can all you know I work um but we can all you know I work partially in Academia Colombia on an

partially in Academia Colombia on an partially in Academia Colombia on an initial initiative partially in initial initiative partially in initial initiative partially in communication Innovation like how can we communication Innovation like how can we communication Innovation like how can we have an open landscape of access to have an open landscape of access to have an open landscape of access to information that matters how can you information that matters how can you information that matters how can you what can you do to Foster better what can you do to Foster better what can you do to Foster better conversations so that words like conversations so that words like conversations so that words like collapse aren't just thrown around like collapse aren't just thrown around like collapse aren't just thrown around like emblems and so system properties give emblems and so system properties give emblems and so system properties give you confidence I think and then you then you confidence I think and then you then you confidence I think and then you then you don't have to like be flailing you don't have to like be flailing you don't have to like be flailing around for Bjorn or Tom Tom Friedman or around for Bjorn or Tom Tom Friedman or around for Bjorn or Tom Tom Friedman or uh Catherine hayho you can always right uh Catherine hayho you can always right uh Catherine hayho you can always right now find your you're you're now find your you're you're now find your you're you're your character to follow but I think your character to follow but I think your character to follow but I think what would be better is if you actually what would be better is if you actually what would be better is if you actually develop some skills to just have a basic develop some skills to just have a basic develop some skills to just have a basic ability ability ability to know how to cut to the chase to know how to cut to the chase to know how to cut to the chase can I can I just follow up on that can I can I just follow up on that can I can I just follow up on that because one of the things that I try to because one of the things that I try to because one of the things that I try to do and and so my day job is actually do and and so my day job is actually do and and so my day job is actually something else I work with I think thing something else I work with I think thing something else I work with I think thing called The Copenhagen consensus uh where called The Copenhagen consensus uh where called The Copenhagen consensus uh where we work with uh more than 300 of the we work with uh more than 300 of the we work with uh more than 300 of the world's top economists and we work with world's top economists and we work with world's top economists and we work with seven noble alerts in economics and and seven noble alerts in economics and and seven noble alerts in economics and and the point there is really to talk about the point there is really to talk about the point there is really to talk about where can you spend a dollar where can you spend a dollar where can you spend a dollar and do the most good for the world and do the most good for the world and do the most good for the world that's that's basically the the thing that's that's basically the the thing that's that's basically the the thing that we try to do and and as as you that we try to do and and as as you that we try to do and and as as you rightly point out look there are lots of rightly point out look there are lots of rightly point out look there are lots of different estimates of what can you do different estimates of what can you do different estimates of what can you do for instance on climate what can you do for instance on climate what can you do for instance on climate what can you do on tuberculosis what can you do for uh on tuberculosis what can you do for uh on tuberculosis what can you do for uh vulnerability in all kinds of different vulnerability in all kinds of different vulnerability in all kinds of different different ways and and if these were all different ways and and if these were all different ways and and if these were all sort of well you can spend a dollar here sort of well you can spend a dollar here sort of well you can spend a dollar here and do 2.36 but you can spend it all and do 2.36 but you can spend it all and do 2.36 but you can spend it all here and do 2.34 over here that I would here and do 2.34 over here that I would here and do 2.34 over here that I would worry a lot but that's not how the world worry a lot but that's not how the world worry a lot but that's not how the world works because we're terribly inefficient

works because we're terribly inefficient works because we're terribly inefficient so they're literally lots and lots of so they're literally lots and lots of so they're literally lots and lots of amazing things you can do out there amazing things you can do out there amazing things you can do out there there's a lot of little hanging fruit there's a lot of little hanging fruit there's a lot of little hanging fruit and there's a lot of not terribly great and there's a lot of not terribly great and there's a lot of not terribly great things that you can do and unfortunately things that you can do and unfortunately things that you can do and unfortunately one of the things that I try to sort of one of the things that I try to sort of one of the things that I try to sort of battle is that you know we get a lot of battle is that you know we get a lot of battle is that you know we get a lot of things right that's why you know the things right that's why you know the things right that's why you know the world is a lot better than what it used world is a lot better than what it used world is a lot better than what it used to be uh but the things that are sort of to be uh but the things that are sort of to be uh but the things that are sort of left left over are often you know the left left over are often you know the left left over are often you know the boring things that happen to be boring things that happen to be boring things that happen to be incredibly effective and the exciting incredibly effective and the exciting incredibly effective and the exciting things that are often not that terribly things that are often not that terribly things that are often not that terribly effective and and so I think one way to effective and and so I think one way to effective and and so I think one way to look at this is basically to have people look at this is basically to have people look at this is basically to have people do cost benefit across a wide range of do cost benefit across a wide range of do cost benefit across a wide range of areas and we try to get a lot of areas and we try to get a lot of areas and we try to get a lot of different economists to do this and they different economists to do this and they different economists to do this and they come up with different numbers and come up with different numbers and come up with different numbers and different models and different results different models and different results different models and different results but if you sort of consistently get that but if you sort of consistently get that but if you sort of consistently get that some things give you you know in tens or some things give you you know in tens or some things give you you know in tens or maybe even hundreds of dollars back per maybe even hundreds of dollars back per maybe even hundreds of dollars back per dollar remember this is not actually you dollar remember this is not actually you dollar remember this is not actually you getting rich it's the world getting rich getting rich it's the world getting rich getting rich it's the world getting rich it's the the world gets better worth a it's the the world gets better worth a it's the the world gets better worth a hundred dollars for for every dollar you hundred dollars for for every dollar you hundred dollars for for every dollar you spend and over here you can spend a spend and over here you can spend a spend and over here you can spend a dollar and do somewhere between 30 cents dollar and do somewhere between 30 cents dollar and do somewhere between 30 cents and maybe a couple dollars you should and maybe a couple dollars you should and maybe a couple dollars you should probably be focused on the other probably be focused on the other probably be focused on the other opportunity first and that's really the opportunity first and that's really the opportunity first and that's really the point that I try to make with climate point that I try to make with climate point that I try to make with climate there are some smart things we can do there are some smart things we can do there are some smart things we can do and I hope we get to talk about them uh and I hope we get to talk about them uh and I hope we get to talk about them uh in in climate but there's also a lot of in in climate but there's also a lot of in in climate but there's also a lot of sort of the standard approaches to sort of the standard approaches to sort of the standard approaches to fixing climate turns out to be very fixing climate turns out to be very fixing climate turns out to be very likely below one dollars back in dollar likely below one dollars back in dollar likely below one dollars back in dollar and certainly not terribly High you know and certainly not terribly High you know and certainly not terribly High you know even if you're very optimistic it'll be even if you're very optimistic it'll be even if you're very optimistic it'll be like two or three whereas many other like two or three whereas many other like two or three whereas many other things are just fantastically better

things are just fantastically better things are just fantastically better Investments like the thing I've been Investments like the thing I've been Investments like the thing I've been advocating uh a modest proposal to eat advocating uh a modest proposal to eat advocating uh a modest proposal to eat the children the of the poor in England the children the of the poor in England the children the of the poor in England was that the in Jonathan Swift Modest was that the in Jonathan Swift Modest was that the in Jonathan Swift Modest Proposal from a few centuries ago Proposal from a few centuries ago Proposal from a few centuries ago um so it's not just cause benefit it's um so it's not just cause benefit it's um so it's not just cause benefit it's also in the context of what is moral and also in the context of what is moral and also in the context of what is moral and not and all that the full the full not and all that the full the full not and all that the full the full complexity of it but that you just hit complexity of it but that you just hit complexity of it but that you just hit on something really important you know on something really important you know on something really important you know having been on this beat for so long and having been on this beat for so long and having been on this beat for so long and again on the disaster beat as well again on the disaster beat as well again on the disaster beat as well earthquakes earthquakes earthquakes I can't tell you how many disaster I can't tell you how many disaster I can't tell you how many disaster science experts keep telling me like science experts keep telling me like science experts keep telling me like everyone says preparedness invest for everyone says preparedness invest for everyone says preparedness invest for preparedness a strict cost-benefit preparedness a strict cost-benefit preparedness a strict cost-benefit analysis will always tell you a dollar analysis will always tell you a dollar analysis will always tell you a dollar invested in resilience before a invested in resilience before a invested in resilience before a community gets hit by whatever community gets hit by whatever community gets hit by whatever is worth 10 you'll always have to spend is worth 10 you'll always have to spend is worth 10 you'll always have to spend 10 after and so it's fine to do the cost 10 after and so it's fine to do the cost 10 after and so it's fine to do the cost benefit stuff but it's just the Baseline benefit stuff but it's just the Baseline benefit stuff but it's just the Baseline then you have to look at the social then you have to look at the social then you have to look at the social science which shows or history which science which shows or history which science which shows or history which shows you how few times we do it it's shows you how few times we do it it's shows you how few times we do it it's like we just don't do it therefore you like we just don't do it therefore you like we just don't do it therefore you can bang that drum your work is valuable can bang that drum your work is valuable can bang that drum your work is valuable but it's really constrained because show but it's really constrained because show but it's really constrained because show me in the world me in the world me in the world where that does happen and then how you where that does happen and then how you where that does happen and then how you turn that success which is basically turn that success which is basically turn that success which is basically something not happening into the story something not happening into the story something not happening into the story just very briefly you know we we try to just very briefly you know we we try to just very briefly you know we we try to so we we do this for a lot of countries so we we do this for a lot of countries so we we do this for a lot of countries so we did it for uh Haiti for instance so we did it for uh Haiti for instance so we did it for uh Haiti for instance uh uh funded by the Canadian development uh uh funded by the Canadian development uh uh funded by the Canadian development uh Ministry because they're basically uh Ministry because they're basically uh Ministry because they're basically saying we spent a billion dollars in

saying we spent a billion dollars in saying we spent a billion dollars in Haiti since the earthquake and we really Haiti since the earthquake and we really Haiti since the earthquake and we really can't tell the difference so they want can't tell the difference so they want can't tell the difference so they want it to fight they I mean they actually it to fight they I mean they actually it to fight they I mean they actually say that right and so they said we want say that right and so they said we want say that right and so they said we want to find out what are the really smart to find out what are the really smart to find out what are the really smart things you can do in Haiti and so we we things you can do in Haiti and so we we things you can do in Haiti and so we we uh together with lots of you know uh uh together with lots of you know uh uh together with lots of you know uh people in Haiti and all the you know the people in Haiti and all the you know the people in Haiti and all the you know the business community and the political business community and the political business community and the political community and the religious community community and the religious community community and the religious community and labor community and everybody else and labor community and everybody else and labor community and everybody else what are the smart things to do and then what are the smart things to do and then what are the smart things to do and then we had economists evaluate it and there we had economists evaluate it and there we had economists evaluate it and there are a lot of these things that everybody are a lot of these things that everybody are a lot of these things that everybody wanted that we're not all that smart wanted that we're not all that smart wanted that we're not all that smart there's actually a lot of smart things there's actually a lot of smart things there's actually a lot of smart things and yes the politicians didn't pick most and yes the politicians didn't pick most and yes the politicians didn't pick most of them so our our senses we try to give of them so our our senses we try to give of them so our our senses we try to give people uh you know you're thinking about people uh you know you're thinking about people uh you know you're thinking about these 70 things these 70 things these 70 things you should actually just think about you should actually just think about you should actually just think about these 20 things right and then we these 20 things right and then we these 20 things right and then we consider ourselves incredibly lucky if consider ourselves incredibly lucky if consider ourselves incredibly lucky if they actually do one of them so you they actually do one of them so you they actually do one of them so you wrote the book how to spend 75 billion wrote the book how to spend 75 billion wrote the book how to spend 75 billion dollars to make the world a better place dollars to make the world a better place dollars to make the world a better place so on can we just list some of the so on can we just list some of the so on can we just list some of the things if I if if you got 75 billion things if I if if you got 75 billion things if I if if you got 75 billion dollars what how do you spend them all dollars what how do you spend them all dollars what how do you spend them all right so there's some incredibly good right so there's some incredibly good right so there's some incredibly good and very very well documented things and very very well documented things and very very well documented things that you could spend money on so we have that you could spend money on so we have that you could spend money on so we have two big infectious diseases that almost two big infectious diseases that almost two big infectious diseases that almost nobody think about uh because we only nobody think about uh because we only nobody think about uh because we only think about you know covet but think about you know covet but think about you know covet but tuberculosis used to be the world's tuberculosis used to be the world's tuberculosis used to be the world's biggest infectious disease killer uh it biggest infectious disease killer uh it biggest infectious disease killer uh it still kills about one and a half million still kills about one and a half million still kills about one and a half million uh people every year the reason why we uh people every year the reason why we uh people every year the reason why we don't you know really worry about it is don't you know really worry about it is don't you know really worry about it is because we fixed it a hundred years ago because we fixed it a hundred years ago because we fixed it a hundred years ago we know how to fix it it's just you know

we know how to fix it it's just you know we know how to fix it it's just you know it's just basically getting medication it's just basically getting medication it's just basically getting medication to people it's also about getting them to people it's also about getting them to people it's also about getting them to take it while when they're sort of to take it while when they're sort of to take it while when they're sort of been cured because you need to take it been cured because you need to take it been cured because you need to take it for four to six months and that's for four to six months and that's for four to six months and that's actually hard to do so you also need to actually hard to do so you also need to actually hard to do so you also need to incentivize that in some kind of way it incentivize that in some kind of way it incentivize that in some kind of way it turns out it's incredibly cheap to turns out it's incredibly cheap to turns out it's incredibly cheap to basically save almost all of the 1.5 basically save almost all of the 1.5 basically save almost all of the 1.5 million people these are people that die million people these are people that die million people these are people that die in the prime of their lives they're in the prime of their lives they're in the prime of their lives they're typically parents so you would also have typically parents so you would also have typically parents so you would also have a lot of knock-on effects and basically a lot of knock-on effects and basically a lot of knock-on effects and basically we find for a couple billion dollars you we find for a couple billion dollars you we find for a couple billion dollars you could save the value number of these not could save the value number of these not could save the value number of these not all of them but you could save the vast all of them but you could save the vast all of them but you could save the vast number of them it will also improve you number of them it will also improve you number of them it will also improve you know outcomes and all kinds of other know outcomes and all kinds of other know outcomes and all kinds of other ways likewise with malaria another it ways likewise with malaria another it ways likewise with malaria another it has some somewhat better uh PR it's has some somewhat better uh PR it's has some somewhat better uh PR it's funny to think of malaria as PR and funny to think of malaria as PR and funny to think of malaria as PR and tuberculosis 9 they need to improve tuberculosis 9 they need to improve tuberculosis 9 they need to improve their PR department their PR department their PR department those mosquitoes are the good PR but by those mosquitoes are the good PR but by those mosquitoes are the good PR but by far the biggest infectious disease uh far the biggest infectious disease uh far the biggest infectious disease uh that got good PR if you will was HIV that got good PR if you will was HIV that got good PR if you will was HIV right yes because and that and and I'm right yes because and that and and I'm right yes because and that and and I'm not trying to compare and say oh it's not trying to compare and say oh it's not trying to compare and say oh it's worse or better to have HIV than to worse or better to have HIV than to worse or better to have HIV than to tuberculosis or anything but I'm simply tuberculosis or anything but I'm simply tuberculosis or anything but I'm simply saying we are under funding because it saying we are under funding because it saying we are under funding because it doesn't really get the public doesn't really get the public doesn't really get the public attention we just yeah we don't spending attention we just yeah we don't spending attention we just yeah we don't spending money on that as uh in terms of benefit money on that as uh in terms of benefit money on that as uh in terms of benefit a much bigger impact so every dollar you a much bigger impact so every dollar you a much bigger impact so every dollar you spend on TB will probably do about 43 spend on TB will probably do about 43 spend on TB will probably do about 43 dollars worth of good so we'll do an dollars worth of good so we'll do an dollars worth of good so we'll do an amazing amount of good basically because amazing amount of good basically because amazing amount of good basically because it'll save lives they'll make sure it'll save lives they'll make sure it'll save lives they'll make sure parents stay with their kids and be more parents stay with their kids and be more parents stay with their kids and be more productive of in their communities and

productive of in their communities and productive of in their communities and it'll you know have a lot of knock-on it'll you know have a lot of knock-on it'll you know have a lot of knock-on effects and it's incredibly cheap to do effects and it's incredibly cheap to do effects and it's incredibly cheap to do same thing with malaria it's mostly same thing with malaria it's mostly same thing with malaria it's mostly mosquito Nets that we need to get out mosquito Nets that we need to get out mosquito Nets that we need to get out and you're saying just the contrast with and you're saying just the contrast with and you're saying just the contrast with climate change the dollar you spend on climate change the dollar you spend on climate change the dollar you spend on no not climate change but decreasing no not climate change but decreasing no not climate change but decreasing emissions emissions emissions does not have does not come close to the does not have does not come close to the does not have does not come close to the 43 dollar benefit no nobody nobody would 43 dollar benefit no nobody nobody would 43 dollar benefit no nobody nobody would ever argue that so very very ever argue that so very very ever argue that so very very enthusiastic climate Advocates would enthusiastic climate Advocates would enthusiastic climate Advocates would probably say it'll do two or three probably say it'll do two or three probably say it'll do two or three dollars worth of good for every dollar dollars worth of good for every dollar dollars worth of good for every dollar so you know it's still worthwhile to do so you know it's still worthwhile to do so you know it's still worthwhile to do that's what they would say I would argue that's what they would say I would argue that's what they would say I would argue and I think a lot of the evidence seems and I think a lot of the evidence seems and I think a lot of the evidence seems to side that way that a lot of the to side that way that a lot of the to side that way that a lot of the things that we're doing deliver actually things that we're doing deliver actually things that we're doing deliver actually lessen it all or back but but it's lessen it all or back but but it's lessen it all or back but but it's certainly not nearly the same kind of certainly not nearly the same kind of certainly not nearly the same kind of place but there's many many other things place but there's many many other things place but there's many many other things and you know just if if you'll allow me and you know just if if you'll allow me and you know just if if you'll allow me yeah I love this but uh yeah there are yeah I love this but uh yeah there are yeah I love this but uh yeah there are lots of other things for instance uh lots of other things for instance uh lots of other things for instance uh e-procurement so uh you know it's e-procurement so uh you know it's e-procurement so uh you know it's incredibly boring so most developing incredibly boring so most developing incredibly boring so most developing countries well actually most governments countries well actually most governments countries well actually most governments spend most of their money on procurement spend most of their money on procurement spend most of their money on procurement is typically incredibly corrupt so we is typically incredibly corrupt so we is typically incredibly corrupt so we did this project for Bangladesh uh where did this project for Bangladesh uh where did this project for Bangladesh uh where can you explain procurement yes so can you explain procurement yes so can you explain procurement yes so that's governments buying stuff so a that's governments buying stuff so a that's governments buying stuff so a large part of the government revenue is large part of the government revenue is large part of the government revenue is spent on buying anywhere anything from spent on buying anywhere anything from spent on buying anywhere anything from you know Post-it notes to roads and you know Post-it notes to roads and you know Post-it notes to roads and obviously you know roads are much much obviously you know roads are much much obviously you know roads are much much more expensive it's mostly more expensive it's mostly more expensive it's mostly infrastructure stuff hugely corrupt uh infrastructure stuff hugely corrupt uh infrastructure stuff hugely corrupt uh for instance in Bangladesh

for instance in Bangladesh for instance in Bangladesh um it would already have been decided um it would already have been decided um it would already have been decided among the ruling Elite in that local among the ruling Elite in that local among the ruling Elite in that local area who's going to get this so they'll area who's going to get this so they'll area who's going to get this so they'll have this bidding competition where you have this bidding competition where you have this bidding competition where you have to hand in an envelope a seal have to hand in an envelope a seal have to hand in an envelope a seal envelope with your bid on it but you put envelope with your bid on it but you put envelope with your bid on it but you put a goon outside the office so you a goon outside the office so you a goon outside the office so you literally physically can't get in with literally physically can't get in with literally physically can't get in with your uh with your bid your uh with your bid your uh with your bid now what we found and this is you know now what we found and this is you know now what we found and this is you know I'm not I'm not claiming any sort of I'm not I'm not claiming any sort of I'm not I'm not claiming any sort of ownership to this a lot of smart people ownership to this a lot of smart people ownership to this a lot of smart people have done this way before we're just have done this way before we're just have done this way before we're just simply proving that it's a good idea simply proving that it's a good idea simply proving that it's a good idea um it turns out that if you put this on um it turns out that if you put this on um it turns out that if you put this on eBay essentially so if you do an eBay essentially so if you do an eBay essentially so if you do an e-procurement system where bidders can e-procurement system where bidders can e-procurement system where bidders can come in suddenly it becomes harder to come in suddenly it becomes harder to come in suddenly it becomes harder to put up the Goon you can still do it but put up the Goon you can still do it but put up the Goon you can still do it but it's harder to do it it also means you it's harder to do it it also means you it's harder to do it it also means you get bits from all over Bangladesh and get bits from all over Bangladesh and get bits from all over Bangladesh and and in general you'll get bids from all and in general you'll get bids from all and in general you'll get bids from all over actually turns out you get better over actually turns out you get better over actually turns out you get better quality but most important is you get it quality but most important is you get it quality but most important is you get it much cheaper so basically you can simply much cheaper so basically you can simply much cheaper so basically you can simply save money so we we did a scaled save money so we we did a scaled save money so we we did a scaled experiment in Bangladesh where we had experiment in Bangladesh where we had experiment in Bangladesh where we had about four percent go to uh to be uh about four percent go to uh to be uh about four percent go to uh to be uh e-procurement and you could compare what e-procurement and you could compare what e-procurement and you could compare what it would have cost and then what it did it would have cost and then what it did it would have cost and then what it did cost and the average reduction was as I cost and the average reduction was as I cost and the average reduction was as I remember it's seven percent and the remember it's seven percent and the remember it's seven percent and the Finance Minister loved it you know Finance Minister loved it you know Finance Minister loved it you know because that basically gives him a lot because that basically gives him a lot because that basically gives him a lot more money or you know you can buy more more money or you know you can buy more more money or you know you can buy more stuff at the same cost no digital stuff at the same cost no digital stuff at the same cost no digital corruption corruption corruption so it's it's basically you get rid of so it's it's basically you get rid of so it's it's basically you get rid of some corruption there'll still be some corruption there'll still be some corruption there'll still be corruption but less corruption Ukraine corruption but less corruption Ukraine corruption but less corruption Ukraine has actually been big on this they I

has actually been big on this they I has actually been big on this they I have talked to them I talked to the have talked to them I talked to the have talked to them I talked to the digital transformation Minister it's digital transformation Minister it's digital transformation Minister it's kind of incredible I mean this is before kind of incredible I mean this is before kind of incredible I mean this is before the war but still working uh it's like the war but still working uh it's like the war but still working uh it's like the entirety of the government is in an the entirety of the government is in an the entirety of the government is in an app and that one of the big effects app and that one of the big effects app and that one of the big effects is the reduction of corruption and not is the reduction of corruption and not is the reduction of corruption and not like from uh this was a politician say like from uh this was a politician say like from uh this was a politician say to say we've reduced we've taken these to say we've reduced we've taken these to say we've reduced we've taken these actions through this court no it actions through this court no it actions through this court no it literally is just much more difficult to literally is just much more difficult to literally is just much more difficult to be corrupt yeah the incentives aren't be corrupt yeah the incentives aren't be corrupt yeah the incentives aren't quite there and they there's friction quite there and they there's friction quite there and they there's friction for corruption yeah oh yeah yeah so for corruption yeah oh yeah yeah so for corruption yeah oh yeah yeah so basically uh you can spend a little bit basically uh you can spend a little bit basically uh you can spend a little bit of money and you can make a huge benefit of money and you can make a huge benefit of money and you can make a huge benefit there's still about 70 countries that there's still about 70 countries that there's still about 70 countries that haven't gone e-procurement so obviously haven't gone e-procurement so obviously haven't gone e-procurement so obviously they should do that food for small kids they should do that food for small kids they should do that food for small kids another thing so you know uh basically another thing so you know uh basically another thing so you know uh basically you know it's morally wrong that people you know it's morally wrong that people you know it's morally wrong that people are starving uh but it also turns out are starving uh but it also turns out are starving uh but it also turns out that it's a really really dumb thing not that it's a really really dumb thing not that it's a really really dumb thing not to get kids good food because if you get to get kids good food because if you get to get kids good food because if you get them good food their brains develop more them good food their brains develop more them good food their brains develop more so that when they get into school they so that when they get into school they so that when they get into school they learn more and so when they come out in learn more and so when they come out in learn more and so when they come out in adult lives they're much more productive adult lives they're much more productive adult lives they're much more productive so we can actually make every kid in so we can actually make every kid in so we can actually make every kid in especially in developing countries much especially in developing countries much especially in developing countries much more productive by making sure they get more productive by making sure they get more productive by making sure they get good food so getting good food is not good food so getting good food is not good food so getting good food is not cost free so it probably cost about a cost free so it probably cost about a cost free so it probably cost about a hundred dollars uh both in and you you hundred dollars uh both in and you you hundred dollars uh both in and you you need some uh directed advertisement you need some uh directed advertisement you need some uh directed advertisement you need to make sure that you actually get need to make sure that you actually get need to make sure that you actually get some of the food out there that you help some of the food out there that you help some of the food out there that you help the families and you also make sure you the families and you also make sure you the families and you also make sure you don't just give it to everyone because

don't just give it to everyone because don't just give it to everyone because then it becomes a lot more expensive if then it becomes a lot more expensive if then it becomes a lot more expensive if you do that right it costs about a you do that right it costs about a you do that right it costs about a hundred dollars per kid but hundred dollars per kid but hundred dollars per kid but for two years so it's for their first for two years so it's for their first for two years so it's for their first two years of life two years of life two years of life um and if you do that um and if you do that um and if you do that you then get a benefit in that they you then get a benefit in that they you then get a benefit in that they become smarter and go longer to school become smarter and go longer to school become smarter and go longer to school and they actually learn more and become and they actually learn more and become and they actually learn more and become more productive of forty five hundred more productive of forty five hundred more productive of forty five hundred dollars remember this is far out into dollars remember this is far out into dollars remember this is far out into the future so the this is discounted the the future so the this is discounted the the future so the this is discounted the benefit is actually much higher and this benefit is actually much higher and this benefit is actually much higher and this is one of the things that we also have a is one of the things that we also have a is one of the things that we also have a conversation about in in climate change conversation about in in climate change conversation about in in climate change because all and when you talk about because all and when you talk about because all and when you talk about climate change costs and benefits all climate change costs and benefits all climate change costs and benefits all the costs are now and all the benefits the costs are now and all the benefits the costs are now and all the benefits are in the future but it's just like are in the future but it's just like are in the future but it's just like that in education you know all the costs that in education you know all the costs that in education you know all the costs are now all the benefits are far into are now all the benefits are far into are now all the benefits are far into the future and if you try to do that the future and if you try to do that the future and if you try to do that right and that's a whole other right and that's a whole other right and that's a whole other conversation that we could have uh then conversation that we could have uh then conversation that we could have uh then it turns out that for every dollar spent it turns out that for every dollar spent it turns out that for every dollar spent you do 45 dollars worth of good again you do 45 dollars worth of good again you do 45 dollars worth of good again remember about a a third of all kids remember about a a third of all kids remember about a a third of all kids that go to school right now just don't that go to school right now just don't that go to school right now just don't learn pretty much anything yeah and if learn pretty much anything yeah and if learn pretty much anything yeah and if we could make them more productive in we could make them more productive in we could make them more productive in the school system we have another the school system we have another the school system we have another proposal and how to do that in the in proposal and how to do that in the in proposal and how to do that in the in the school system but you know by just the school system but you know by just the school system but you know by just simply making sure that they're that simply making sure that they're that simply making sure that they're that they're smarter when they get into they're smarter when they get into they're smarter when they get into School we've been focusing so much on School we've been focusing so much on School we've been focusing so much on making the education system better which making the education system better which making the education system better which is really hard but it's actually really is really hard but it's actually really is really hard but it's actually really easy to make the kids smarter then when easy to make the kids smarter then when easy to make the kids smarter then when you say the education system is not you say the education system is not you say the education system is not working well that's we're talking about working well that's we're talking about working well that's we're talking about not the American education system we're not the American education system we're not the American education system we're talking about globally yes we're talking talking about globally yes we're talking talking about globally yes we're talking about globally you know so about a third

about globally you know so about a third about globally you know so about a third of the teachers in the developing of the teachers in the developing of the teachers in the developing countries have a hard time passing the countries have a hard time passing the countries have a hard time passing the tests of the things they have to teach tests of the things they have to teach tests of the things they have to teach their students right and and you know their students right and and you know their students right and and you know all these students have lots of other all these students have lots of other all these students have lots of other issues you know there's there they need issues you know there's there they need issues you know there's there they need to do farm work they they need uh yeah to do farm work they they need uh yeah to do farm work they they need uh yeah uh they they're constantly considering uh they they're constantly considering uh they they're constantly considering should I just go out and start working should I just go out and start working should I just go out and start working instead uh you know there's there's instead uh you know there's there's instead uh you know there's there's constant disruption there's a lot of constant disruption there's a lot of constant disruption there's a lot of teachers that don't show up in India you teachers that don't show up in India you teachers that don't show up in India you know you have uh you have this absurd know you have uh you have this absurd know you have uh you have this absurd situation where all the teachers are situation where all the teachers are situation where all the teachers are basically paid and hired for eternity basically paid and hired for eternity basically paid and hired for eternity for the rest of their lives and so not for the rest of their lives and so not for the rest of their lives and so not surprisingly a lot of them decide not to surprisingly a lot of them decide not to surprisingly a lot of them decide not to show up so now they've hired assistant show up so now they've hired assistant show up so now they've hired assistant teachers that basically have taken over teachers that basically have taken over teachers that basically have taken over so they're paying you know for I think so they're paying you know for I think so they're paying you know for I think it's seven million teachers that I'm not it's seven million teachers that I'm not it's seven million teachers that I'm not saying they're not all all not working saying they're not all all not working saying they're not all all not working but a lot of them are not working as but a lot of them are not working as but a lot of them are not working as much as they should and we now hired much as they should and we now hired much as they should and we now hired another seven million teachers that have another seven million teachers that have another seven million teachers that have it will eventually you know stop working it will eventually you know stop working it will eventually you know stop working as well they're they're working much as well they're they're working much as well they're they're working much better right now because they're you better right now because they're you better right now because they're you know they're they're not on on permanent know they're they're not on on permanent know they're they're not on on permanent contracts but eventually they'll get contracts but eventually they'll get contracts but eventually they'll get empowerment contracts and then you have empowerment contracts and then you have empowerment contracts and then you have the same problem again there's lots of the same problem again there's lots of the same problem again there's lots of these issues and you know it's just these issues and you know it's just these issues and you know it's just simply about saying we can't fix all simply about saying we can't fix all simply about saying we can't fix all problems but there are some problems problems but there are some problems problems but there are some problems that are incredibly easy to solve and that are incredibly easy to solve and that are incredibly easy to solve and there are some that are incredibly hard there are some that are incredibly hard there are some that are incredibly hard to solve why don't we start with solving to solve why don't we start with solving to solve why don't we start with solving the easy and effective ones and this of the easy and effective ones and this of the easy and effective ones and this of course Bears them that whole course Bears them that whole course Bears them that whole conversation on climate change because conversation on climate change because conversation on climate change because in some ways you know that's that's also in some ways you know that's that's also in some ways you know that's that's also Andy's point of saying look if you want Andy's point of saying look if you want Andy's point of saying look if you want to save people from from the impacts of to save people from from the impacts of to save people from from the impacts of hurricanes let's fix this simple easy

hurricanes let's fix this simple easy hurricanes let's fix this simple easy things about vulnerability first whereas things about vulnerability first whereas things about vulnerability first whereas we have somehow latched on to this let's we have somehow latched on to this let's we have somehow latched on to this let's fix the hardest thing to do which is to fix the hardest thing to do which is to fix the hardest thing to do which is to get everyone to stop using fossil fuels get everyone to stop using fossil fuels get everyone to stop using fossil fuels which is basically what's Driven the which is basically what's Driven the which is basically what's Driven the last 200 years of development that's last 200 years of development that's last 200 years of development that's going to be that's a tall order no going to be that's a tall order no going to be that's a tall order no matter how you look at it there's some matter how you look at it there's some matter how you look at it there's some really cool elements that you guys just really cool elements that you guys just really cool elements that you guys just brought up would you mentioned that word brought up would you mentioned that word brought up would you mentioned that word moral before I wasn't alleged on it moral before I wasn't alleged on it moral before I wasn't alleged on it because it relates to because it relates to because it relates to these time scales that really are these time scales that really are these time scales that really are immeasurable if you know it's going to immeasurable if you know it's going to immeasurable if you know it's going to take decades to confirm the benefit of take decades to confirm the benefit of take decades to confirm the benefit of some investment now some investment now some investment now that implies you're doing the investment that implies you're doing the investment that implies you're doing the investment with some moral imperative not because with some moral imperative not because with some moral imperative not because you can do a spreadsheet and come up you can do a spreadsheet and come up you can do a spreadsheet and come up with a number with a number with a number and that that process letting go of the and that that process letting go of the and that that process letting go of the need need need for kind of a mechanistic cost benefit for kind of a mechanistic cost benefit for kind of a mechanistic cost benefit approach thinking about kids education approach thinking about kids education approach thinking about kids education in poor countries or several things we in poor countries or several things we in poor countries or several things we talked about seems to be really talked about seems to be really talked about seems to be really important and it's very hard for all of important and it's very hard for all of important and it's very hard for all of us to do philanthropists suck at it I've us to do philanthropists suck at it I've us to do philanthropists suck at it I've worked at National Geographic Society worked at National Geographic Society worked at National Geographic Society for a year building some new programs for a year building some new programs for a year building some new programs when they got a big infusion money they when they got a big infusion money they when they got a big infusion money they have a whole department that's called M have a whole department that's called M have a whole department that's called M and E it's measurement and evaluation and E it's measurement and evaluation and E it's measurement and evaluation which is if you don't prove it it goes which is if you don't prove it it goes which is if you don't prove it it goes away I mentioned Spotify earlier Spotify away I mentioned Spotify earlier Spotify away I mentioned Spotify earlier Spotify killing a climate podcast because that killing a climate podcast because that killing a climate podcast because that podcast didn't measure measure out for podcast didn't measure measure out for podcast didn't measure measure out for their their their impact you know what they want to do and

impact you know what they want to do and impact you know what they want to do and um if we're always making the judgments um if we're always making the judgments um if we're always making the judgments based on strict cost benefit we're going based on strict cost benefit we're going based on strict cost benefit we're going to miss to miss to miss larger realities another thing is larger realities another thing is larger realities another thing is another a really exciting example of another a really exciting example of another a really exciting example of what you're talking about what you're talking about what you're talking about in terms of in Ukraine with the trust in terms of in Ukraine with the trust in terms of in Ukraine with the trust and lack of less corruption and stuff and lack of less corruption and stuff and lack of less corruption and stuff was in India was in India was in India for all of his issues Modi um for all of his issues Modi um for all of his issues Modi um recognized that middle class people in recognized that middle class people in recognized that middle class people in India Cook on LPG propane or on piped India Cook on LPG propane or on piped India Cook on LPG propane or on piped gas natural gas if they're in cities gas natural gas if they're in cities gas natural gas if they're in cities much cleaner much healthier much cleaner much healthier much cleaner much healthier in so many ways and actually compared to in so many ways and actually compared to in so many ways and actually compared to like chopping down trees and cook like chopping down trees and cook like chopping down trees and cook cooking on wood it's actually better for cooking on wood it's actually better for cooking on wood it's actually better for the climate even though it's a fossil the climate even though it's a fossil the climate even though it's a fossil fuel fuel fuel so he so he so he he and others there was the American he and others there was the American he and others there was the American scientist Kirk Smith who worked this all scientist Kirk Smith who worked this all scientist Kirk Smith who worked this all out out out um if you find a way you had to tr they um if you find a way you had to tr they um if you find a way you had to tr they were getting a subsidy they had they had were getting a subsidy they had they had were getting a subsidy they had they had that energy subsidies you were talking that energy subsidies you were talking that energy subsidies you were talking about many poor countries subsidized about many poor countries subsidized about many poor countries subsidized energy just to stay in office you know energy just to stay in office you know energy just to stay in office you know to make something cheap that everyone to make something cheap that everyone to make something cheap that everyone wants wants wants um but they wanted to shift the subsidy um but they wanted to shift the subsidy um but they wanted to shift the subsidy away from the middle class to the poor away from the middle class to the poor away from the middle class to the poor poor people who were cooking on firewood poor people who were cooking on firewood poor people who were cooking on firewood and dying Young from pneumonia and dying Young from pneumonia and dying Young from pneumonia and what the the critical Factor was and what the the critical Factor was and what the the critical Factor was India's digital currency India went to a India's digital currency India went to a India's digital currency India went to a digital economy digital economy digital economy very poor families there now if you have very poor families there now if you have very poor families there now if you have a phone you basically that's your bank a phone you basically that's your bank a phone you basically that's your bank and you could make the case to the and you could make the case to the and you could make the case to the public that we're we're going to be public that we're we're going to be public that we're we're going to be starting to shift your starting to shift your starting to shift your LPG your propane subsidy to poor people

LPG your propane subsidy to poor people LPG your propane subsidy to poor people but we know they're poor but we know they're poor but we know they're poor we know they're not just going to be we know they're not just going to be we know they're not just going to be using it behind their restaurant which using it behind their restaurant which using it behind their restaurant which was you know the when it was a general was you know the when it was a general was you know the when it was a general subsidy people were hoarding the LPG and subsidy people were hoarding the LPG and subsidy people were hoarding the LPG and and the system has worked they've and the system has worked they've and the system has worked they've shifted a lot of shifted a lot of shifted a lot of capacity to cook on a clean blue flame capacity to cook on a clean blue flame capacity to cook on a clean blue flame that turns off and on in homes that that turns off and on in homes that that turns off and on in homes that previously where the woman would spend previously where the woman would spend previously where the woman would spend hours collecting firewood hours collecting firewood hours collecting firewood Smokey fire cooking clean the pots and Smokey fire cooking clean the pots and Smokey fire cooking clean the pots and start all over again but it's all built start all over again but it's all built start all over again but it's all built on trust all built on the digital on trust all built on the digital on trust all built on the digital economy and the same thing in Nairobi so economy and the same thing in Nairobi so economy and the same thing in Nairobi so that excites me every day you know with that excites me every day you know with that excites me every day you know with all the doomism all the doomism all the doomism I just hope people can literally I just hope people can literally I just hope people can literally take a breath take a breath take a breath look for these examples look for these examples look for these examples um that show the potential when you have um that show the potential when you have um that show the potential when you have a trustworthy system when you have a a trustworthy system when you have a a trustworthy system when you have a clear path to making lives better clear path to making lives better clear path to making lives better and then knowing you know that kid and then knowing you know that kid and then knowing you know that kid having electric light as opposed to a having electric light as opposed to a having electric light as opposed to a kerosene lamp we don't know how much kerosene lamp we don't know how much kerosene lamp we don't know how much that's going to improve his homework that's going to improve his homework that's going to improve his homework and lead to a better outcome but we know and lead to a better outcome but we know and lead to a better outcome but we know from history that sometimes it does ban from history that sometimes it does ban from history that sometimes it does ban ki-moon former Secretary General so the ki-moon former Secretary General so the ki-moon former Secretary General so the most powerful story I ever heard from a most powerful story I ever heard from a most powerful story I ever heard from a U.N Secretary General was like 2012 when U.N Secretary General was like 2012 when U.N Secretary General was like 2012 when they were rolling out they were rolling out they were rolling out this sustainable energy for all this sustainable energy for all this sustainable energy for all initiative which is not just climate initiative which is not just climate initiative which is not just climate it's just like getting people energy it's just like getting people energy it's just like getting people energy they need to they need to they need to survive and thrive survive and thrive survive and thrive he's he was growing up in post-war Korea he's he was growing up in post-war Korea he's he was growing up in post-war Korea everyone's poor everything was broken everyone's poor everything was broken everyone's poor everything was broken destroyed sadly

destroyed sadly destroyed sadly like so much of you many parts of like so much of you many parts of like so much of you many parts of Ukraine and he would do his homework by Ukraine and he would do his homework by Ukraine and he would do his homework by kerosene lamp kerosene lamp kerosene lamp he said when he was studying for his he said when he was studying for his he said when he was studying for his finals his mom would give him a candle finals his mom would give him a candle finals his mom would give him a candle because it was a brighter flame you know because it was a brighter flame you know because it was a brighter flame you know better grades maybe and he became better grades maybe and he became better grades maybe and he became Secretary General Secretary General Secretary General it's a hell of a story for climate change which policies work for climate change which policies work which don't which don't which don't which are when we look at this formula which are when we look at this formula which are when we look at this formula of one dollar in forty five dollars out of one dollar in forty five dollars out of one dollar in forty five dollars out for climate change what dollar in what for climate change what dollar in what for climate change what dollar in what policies for dollar in and and dollar policies for dollar in and and dollar policies for dollar in and and dollar out are good and which are not yep so so out are good and which are not yep so so out are good and which are not yep so so we actually did a a whole project back we actually did a a whole project back we actually did a a whole project back in 2009 when when the The Whole World in 2009 when when the The Whole World in 2009 when when the The Whole World Circus was coming to Copenhagen and we Circus was coming to Copenhagen and we Circus was coming to Copenhagen and we were going to save the world there were going to save the world there were going to save the world there uh we brought together about 50 climate uh we brought together about 50 climate uh we brought together about 50 climate economists and three Noble alerts to economists and three Noble alerts to economists and three Noble alerts to look at where can you spend a dollar and look at where can you spend a dollar and look at where can you spend a dollar and do the most good for climate and what do the most good for climate and what do the most good for climate and what they found was a lot of these things as they found was a lot of these things as they found was a lot of these things as we've been talking about before that we've been talking about before that we've been talking about before that that basically investing in in the that basically investing in in the that basically investing in in the current sort of technology that we're current sort of technology that we're current sort of technology that we're trying very hard is at best at pretty trying very hard is at best at pretty trying very hard is at best at pretty dicey outcome uh much of it's probably dicey outcome uh much of it's probably dicey outcome uh much of it's probably less than a dollar back in the dollar uh less than a dollar back in the dollar uh less than a dollar back in the dollar uh there's some uh Investments and on there's some uh Investments and on there's some uh Investments and on adaptation for instance that's pretty adaptation for instance that's pretty adaptation for instance that's pretty good but it's you know sort of two three good but it's you know sort of two three good but it's you know sort of two three dollars back in the dollar

dollars back in the dollar dollars back in the dollar the obvious thing is that you built a the obvious thing is that you built a the obvious thing is that you built a dike for a sea level rise or that you dike for a sea level rise or that you dike for a sea level rise or that you make people uh you get some apps that make people uh you get some apps that make people uh you get some apps that people know that there's a hurricane people know that there's a hurricane people know that there's a hurricane coming or that you know so you can adapt coming or that you know so you can adapt coming or that you know so you can adapt infrastructure right yeah it is the infrastructure right yeah it is the infrastructure right yeah it is the physical and the digital infrastructure physical and the digital infrastructure physical and the digital infrastructure the point is that people are really good the point is that people are really good the point is that people are really good at doing this already because they have at doing this already because they have at doing this already because they have a strong incentive to do it so the extra a strong incentive to do it so the extra a strong incentive to do it so the extra thing that governments can do outside is thing that governments can do outside is thing that governments can do outside is somewhat good but it's not amazing or somewhat good but it's not amazing or somewhat good but it's not amazing or anything what we found by far the best anything what we found by far the best anything what we found by far the best uh investment in the long run was on uh investment in the long run was on uh investment in the long run was on investment in energy Innovation so and investment in energy Innovation so and investment in energy Innovation so and and I think this also sort of and I think this also sort of and I think this also sort of corresponds with what we would think in corresponds with what we would think in corresponds with what we would think in general uh if we could innovate so you general uh if we could innovate so you general uh if we could innovate so you know for instance Bill Gates is arguing know for instance Bill Gates is arguing know for instance Bill Gates is arguing we should have fourth generation Nuclear we should have fourth generation Nuclear we should have fourth generation Nuclear So the next uh the more advanced than So the next uh the more advanced than So the next uh the more advanced than what we currently have in third what we currently have in third what we currently have in third generation nuclear which would be uh generation nuclear which would be uh generation nuclear which would be uh industrial scale process you'd just be industrial scale process you'd just be industrial scale process you'd just be building these you know uh modular building these you know uh modular building these you know uh modular nuclear power plants they would be nuclear power plants they would be nuclear power plants they would be instead of being these artwork that we instead of being these artwork that we instead of being these artwork that we design once for every different plant design once for every different plant design once for every different plant which is one of the reasons why they're which is one of the reasons why they're which is one of the reasons why they're so expensive they would just be mass so expensive they would just be mass so expensive they would just be mass produced and you'd have one you know uh produced and you'd have one you know uh produced and you'd have one you know uh uh they'd all be recognized in one go so uh they'd all be recognized in one go so uh they'd all be recognized in one go so be much cheaper they would also be be much cheaper they would also be be much cheaper they would also be passively safe so uh if if all the power passively safe so uh if if all the power passively safe so uh if if all the power goes they'll shut down rather than go goes they'll shut down rather than go goes they'll shut down rather than go boom uh so that's that's another very boom uh so that's that's another very boom uh so that's that's another very good thing and then they'll also uh be good thing and then they'll also uh be good thing and then they'll also uh be very hard to transform into nuclear uh very hard to transform into nuclear uh very hard to transform into nuclear uh weapons so you can actually imagine them

weapons so you can actually imagine them weapons so you can actually imagine them being out in a lot of different places being out in a lot of different places being out in a lot of different places where we'd perhaps be a little worried where we'd perhaps be a little worried where we'd perhaps be a little worried about having you know plutonium lying about having you know plutonium lying about having you know plutonium lying around now this is all still being around now this is all still being around now this is all still being worked out but imagine if that actually worked out but imagine if that actually worked out but imagine if that actually comes out and again remember the other comes out and again remember the other comes out and again remember the other three generations they were we were also three generations they were we were also three generations they were we were also told they'll be incredibly safe and told they'll be incredibly safe and told they'll be incredibly safe and it'll be incredibly cheap and it didn't it'll be incredibly cheap and it didn't it'll be incredibly cheap and it didn't turn out that way so let's let's wait turn out that way so let's let's wait turn out that way so let's let's wait but it could be but it could be but it could be and so the argument is invest in these and so the argument is invest in these and so the argument is invest in these ideas for instance fourth generation ideas for instance fourth generation ideas for instance fourth generation nuclear and if fourth generation nuclear nuclear and if fourth generation nuclear nuclear and if fourth generation nuclear becomes cheaper than fossil fuels we're becomes cheaper than fossil fuels we're becomes cheaper than fossil fuels we're done everyone will just switch not just done everyone will just switch not just done everyone will just switch not just Rich well-meaning Americans or Europeans Rich well-meaning Americans or Europeans Rich well-meaning Americans or Europeans but also the Chinese the Indians but also the Chinese the Indians but also the Chinese the Indians everybody in Africa the rest is uh everybody in Africa the rest is uh everybody in Africa the rest is uh Indian subcontinent that's how you fix Indian subcontinent that's how you fix Indian subcontinent that's how you fix these issues right so the idea here is these issues right so the idea here is these issues right so the idea here is to say instead of thinking that we can to say instead of thinking that we can to say instead of thinking that we can sort of push people to do stuff they sort of push people to do stuff they sort of push people to do stuff they really don't want to do really don't want to do really don't want to do which is basically saying let's let's which is basically saying let's let's which is basically saying let's let's use more of the uh you know the solar use more of the uh you know the solar use more of the uh you know the solar and wind that you would otherwise have and wind that you would otherwise have and wind that you would otherwise have invested in force people to buy an invested in force people to buy an invested in force people to buy an electric car by giving huge subsidies electric car by giving huge subsidies electric car by giving huge subsidies because otherwise they're clearly not because otherwise they're clearly not because otherwise they're clearly not all that interested in buying it and so all that interested in buying it and so all that interested in buying it and so on then get the Innovation such that on then get the Innovation such that on then get the Innovation such that they become cheaper than fossil fuels they become cheaper than fossil fuels they become cheaper than fossil fuels and everyone will switch this is how we and everyone will switch this is how we and everyone will switch this is how we solved problems in the past if you think solved problems in the past if you think solved problems in the past if you think in in Los Angeles in the 1950s was in in Los Angeles in the 1950s was in in Los Angeles in the 1950s was hugely polluted place mostly because of hugely polluted place mostly because of hugely polluted place mostly because of cars this sort of standard climate cars this sort of standard climate cars this sort of standard climate approach today would be to tell everyone approach today would be to tell everyone approach today would be to tell everyone in Los Angeles I'm sorry could you just in Los Angeles I'm sorry could you just in Los Angeles I'm sorry could you just walk instead and of course that just

walk instead and of course that just walk instead and of course that just doesn't work that doesn't pay off you doesn't work that doesn't pay off you doesn't work that doesn't pay off you never get you know politicians voted in never get you know politicians voted in never get you know politicians voted in office or at least staying in office if office or at least staying in office if office or at least staying in office if you make that kind of policy what did you make that kind of policy what did you make that kind of policy what did solve the problem was the innovation of solve the problem was the innovation of solve the problem was the innovation of the catalytic converter you basically the catalytic converter you basically the catalytic converter you basically get this little Gizmo and it cost a get this little Gizmo and it cost a get this little Gizmo and it cost a couple hundred dollars and you put it on couple hundred dollars and you put it on couple hundred dollars and you put it on your tailpipe and then you can drive your tailpipe and then you can drive your tailpipe and then you can drive around basically almost not pollute and around basically almost not pollute and around basically almost not pollute and that that's how you fix the air that that's how you fix the air that that's how you fix the air pollution in Los Angeles basically we've pollution in Los Angeles basically we've pollution in Los Angeles basically we've solved all problems in humanity all big solved all problems in humanity all big solved all problems in humanity all big difficult problems with Innovation we difficult problems with Innovation we difficult problems with Innovation we haven't solved it by telling everyone haven't solved it by telling everyone haven't solved it by telling everyone I'm sorry could you be a little less I'm sorry could you be a little less I'm sorry could you be a little less comfortable and a little more cold and a comfortable and a little more cold and a comfortable and a little more cold and a little poorer and believing that that little poorer and believing that that little poorer and believing that that can go on for you know decades and and can go on for you know decades and and can go on for you know decades and and while it possibly Works in some pockets while it possibly Works in some pockets while it possibly Works in some pockets of the US and I I think actually in of the US and I I think actually in of the US and I I think actually in large parts of Europe at least it used large parts of Europe at least it used large parts of Europe at least it used to uh the this uh the the war in Ukraine to uh the this uh the the war in Ukraine to uh the this uh the the war in Ukraine is definitely sort of changing that is definitely sort of changing that is definitely sort of changing that whole perspective but yeah there's a whole perspective but yeah there's a whole perspective but yeah there's a willingness to say we're gonna you know willingness to say we're gonna you know willingness to say we're gonna you know suffer a little bit then we'll fix this suffer a little bit then we'll fix this suffer a little bit then we'll fix this problem but the point is we're going to problem but the point is we're going to problem but the point is we're going to be willing to suffer a little and so fix be willing to suffer a little and so fix be willing to suffer a little and so fix a tiny bit of the climate problem a tiny bit of the climate problem a tiny bit of the climate problem instead of actually focusing on instead of actually focusing on instead of actually focusing on Innovation so what we found was if you Innovation so what we found was if you Innovation so what we found was if you spend a dollar on Innovation you will spend a dollar on Innovation you will spend a dollar on Innovation you will probably avoid about 11 of climate probably avoid about 11 of climate probably avoid about 11 of climate damage in the long run which is a great damage in the long run which is a great damage in the long run which is a great investment and the terrible thing is investment and the terrible thing is investment and the terrible thing is we have not been doing this so because we have not been doing this so because we have not been doing this so because everybody is focused on saying we need everybody is focused on saying we need everybody is focused on saying we need the solution within the next 12 years it the solution within the next 12 years it the solution within the next 12 years it means you're not thinking about the

means you're not thinking about the means you're not thinking about the Innovation we're actually spending less Innovation we're actually spending less Innovation we're actually spending less money not more money on uh on Innovation money not more money on uh on Innovation money not more money on uh on Innovation globally so everyone is really missing globally so everyone is really missing globally so everyone is really missing and reducing carbon emission versus and reducing carbon emission versus and reducing carbon emission versus innovating on Alternate energy you're innovating on Alternate energy you're innovating on Alternate energy you're basically focusing on putting the basically focusing on putting the basically focusing on putting the existing solar panels or wind turbines existing solar panels or wind turbines existing solar panels or wind turbines which are either you know just about which are either you know just about which are either you know just about inefficient or inefficient instead of inefficient or inefficient instead of inefficient or inefficient instead of making the Next Generation or it's more making the Next Generation or it's more making the Next Generation or it's more likely the 10th Generation after that likely the 10th Generation after that likely the 10th Generation after that that comes with lots of you know a that comes with lots of you know a that comes with lots of you know a battery backup power or you know a battery backup power or you know a battery backup power or you know a fourth generation nuclear or you know fourth generation nuclear or you know fourth generation nuclear or you know Craig Venter has this great idea Craig Craig Venter has this great idea Craig Craig Venter has this great idea Craig venzo the guy who cracked the human venzo the guy who cracked the human venzo the guy who cracked the human genome back in 2000 he has this idea of genome back in 2000 he has this idea of genome back in 2000 he has this idea of growing algae out on the ocean surface growing algae out on the ocean surface growing algae out on the ocean surface these algae they'd be genetically these algae they'd be genetically these algae they'd be genetically modified and they would basically soak modified and they would basically soak modified and they would basically soak up sunlight and CO2 and produce oil then up sunlight and CO2 and produce oil then up sunlight and CO2 and produce oil then we could basically just grow our own we could basically just grow our own we could basically just grow our own Saudi Arabia on the ocean surface and Saudi Arabia on the ocean surface and Saudi Arabia on the ocean surface and we'd Harvest it we'd keep our entire we'd Harvest it we'd keep our entire we'd Harvest it we'd keep our entire fossil fuel economy but it'd not be Net fossil fuel economy but it'd not be Net fossil fuel economy but it'd not be Net Zero because we just soaked up the CO2 Zero because we just soaked up the CO2 Zero because we just soaked up the CO2 out there one dollar invested in the out there one dollar invested in the out there one dollar invested in the portfolio of different ideas portfolio of different ideas portfolio of different ideas back I I first wrote about that in the back I I first wrote about that in the back I I first wrote about that in the New York Times it was one of my actual New York Times it was one of my actual New York Times it was one of my actual page one stories page one stories page one stories um in 2006 it was declining r d in um in 2006 it was declining r d in um in 2006 it was declining r d in energy at a time of global warming and energy at a time of global warming and energy at a time of global warming and the Baseline is so low for this that the Baseline is so low for this that the Baseline is so low for this that it's a it's a supermarket we were it's a it's a supermarket we were it's a it's a supermarket we were in during the there was during the in during the there was during the in during the there was during the energy crisis the 70s the first energy energy crisis the 70s the first energy energy crisis the 70s the first energy crisis in the 70s before the current one

crisis in the 70s before the current one crisis in the 70s before the current one um um um are are are annual spending the United States and annual spending the United States and annual spending the United States and constant dollars on R D research and constant dollars on R D research and constant dollars on R D research and development for energy development for energy development for energy was about five billion dollars and then was about five billion dollars and then was about five billion dollars and then it just dribbled away it just dribbled away it just dribbled away since then and recently now there's a since then and recently now there's a since then and recently now there's a big burst of new money coming through big burst of new money coming through big burst of new money coming through these new bills that got passed but what these new bills that got passed but what these new bills that got passed but what I was told over and over again by people I was told over and over again by people I was told over and over again by people in that Arena in that Arena in that Arena is you can't just have these little is you can't just have these little is you can't just have these little bubbles of investment you don't get bubbles of investment you don't get bubbles of investment you don't get young people young people young people away from thinking about Wall Street for away from thinking about Wall Street for away from thinking about Wall Street for jobs towards thinking about energy jobs towards thinking about energy jobs towards thinking about energy Innovation if there isn't like a future Innovation if there isn't like a future Innovation if there isn't like a future there and a lot of the in the United there and a lot of the in the United there and a lot of the in the United States and Europe the presumption was States and Europe the presumption was States and Europe the presumption was the wage that future was taxing the wage that future was taxing the wage that future was taxing carbon carbon carbon you'd make that so punitive that the you'd make that so punitive that the you'd make that so punitive that the your basically the leveling even in the your basically the leveling even in the your basically the leveling even in the landscape for cleaner stuff that's more landscape for cleaner stuff that's more landscape for cleaner stuff that's more expensive that's a that has failed expensive that's a that has failed expensive that's a that has failed completely they're little examples in completely they're little examples in completely they're little examples in Europe where it's working Europe where it's working Europe where it's working and what's happened now is well the and what's happened now is well the and what's happened now is well the United States this big chunk of money United States this big chunk of money United States this big chunk of money is designed to take us over a Finish is designed to take us over a Finish is designed to take us over a Finish Line Line Line that was started with not just that was started with not just that was started with not just Innovation but with the production Innovation but with the production Innovation but with the production efficiency too this is one thing I got efficiency too this is one thing I got efficiency too this is one thing I got wrong I think a little bit my reporting wrong I think a little bit my reporting wrong I think a little bit my reporting I was so fixated on the Innovation part I was so fixated on the Innovation part I was so fixated on the Innovation part just because I love science too I saw just because I love science too I saw just because I love science too I saw this untapped possibility this untapped possibility this untapped possibility that others were saying no no production that others were saying no no production that others were saying no no production efficiency the more people are producing efficiency the more people are producing efficiency the more people are producing batteries the cheaper they'll get this batteries the cheaper they'll get this batteries the cheaper they'll get this is Elon musk's uh you know path and many

is Elon musk's uh you know path and many is Elon musk's uh you know path and many others others others and it really is both so when you were and it really is both so when you were and it really is both so when you were talking about purchasing power for talking about purchasing power for talking about purchasing power for governments for example governments for example governments for example that can stimulate production that can stimulate production that can stimulate production capacity for batteries or whatever the capacity for batteries or whatever the capacity for batteries or whatever the good thing is and take you down faster good thing is and take you down faster good thing is and take you down faster and it's all about getting that margin and it's all about getting that margin and it's all about getting that margin of the new thing out competing the old of the new thing out competing the old of the new thing out competing the old and it's not just Innovation it has so and it's not just Innovation it has so and it's not just Innovation it has so many parts of the pipeline that need to many parts of the pipeline that need to many parts of the pipeline that need to be nurtured so so be nurtured so so be nurtured so so and and the other thing is relative and and the other thing is relative and and the other thing is relative costs the United States when I was costs the United States when I was costs the United States when I was writing about this in 2006 writing about this in 2006 writing about this in 2006 our budget for DARPA the advanced our budget for DARPA the advanced our budget for DARPA the advanced research project Agency for for the research project Agency for for the research project Agency for for the defense department defense department defense department for just for science for was 80 billion for just for science for was 80 billion for just for science for was 80 billion a year a year a year for health from for medical Frontier for health from for medical Frontier for health from for medical Frontier research on cancers of 40 billion energy research on cancers of 40 billion energy research on cancers of 40 billion energy was two or three was two or three was two or three so we weren't taking this remotely so we weren't taking this remotely so we weren't taking this remotely seriously so now that if we get that up seriously so now that if we get that up seriously so now that if we get that up to me to me there's like this level to me to me there's like this level to me to me there's like this level you know we're taking something you know we're taking something you know we're taking something seriously when it's like in the tens of seriously when it's like in the tens of seriously when it's like in the tens of billions for r d it's not that r d would billions for r d it's not that r d would billions for r d it's not that r d would solve the problem but are but it's a solve the problem but are but it's a solve the problem but are but it's a proxy for what we really care about We proxy for what we really care about We proxy for what we really care about We Care a shitload about defense Care a shitload about defense Care a shitload about defense what's the defense budget in the United what's the defense budget in the United what's the defense budget in the United States now like 800 billion it's some States now like 800 billion it's some States now like 800 billion it's some insane number who's County when you're insane number who's County when you're insane number who's County when you're having fun yeah yeah yeah and so um having fun yeah yeah yeah and so um having fun yeah yeah yeah and so um Innovation is not just like for the Innovation is not just like for the Innovation is not just like for the better better better you know camera the better solar panel you know camera the better solar panel you know camera the better solar panel the better battery social Innovation the better battery social Innovation the better battery social Innovation actually matters hugely like the guy in actually matters hugely like the guy in actually matters hugely like the guy in nairobia mentioned nairobia mentioned nairobia mentioned with a company doing micro payment gas

with a company doing micro payment gas with a company doing micro payment gas to get people off charcoal to get people off charcoal to get people off charcoal we need that as much as this and I we need that as much as this and I we need that as much as this and I actually I interviewed Bill Bill Gates actually I interviewed Bill Bill Gates actually I interviewed Bill Bill Gates uh we had to spend an hour with him in uh we had to spend an hour with him in uh we had to spend an hour with him in Seattle Seattle Seattle in 2016 in 2016 in 2016 um um um was when he was rolling out his was when he was rolling out his was when he was rolling out his breakthrough energy thing I got to spend breakthrough energy thing I got to spend breakthrough energy thing I got to spend it was 45 minutes me and Bill Gates it was 45 minutes me and Bill Gates it was 45 minutes me and Bill Gates which was pretty fun but I I brought which was pretty fun but I I brought which was pretty fun but I I brought this up I said you know because he's all this up I said you know because he's all this up I said you know because he's all about the new nuclear thing that will about the new nuclear thing that will about the new nuclear thing that will solve The World's problems and I yes yes solve The World's problems and I yes yes solve The World's problems and I yes yes but we all brought up nuclear Sergeant but we all brought up nuclear Sergeant but we all brought up nuclear Sergeant oh he did oh sure so he's interested in oh he did oh sure so he's interested in oh he did oh sure so he's interested in one of the oh he's investing heavily in one of the oh he's investing heavily in one of the oh he's investing heavily in nuclear but he invests in everything you nuclear but he invests in everything you nuclear but he invests in everything you know he's got a big portfolio know he's got a big portfolio know he's got a big portfolio um um um but I brought up a guy I met in India but I brought up a guy I met in India but I brought up a guy I met in India um um um who runs a little outfit called Selco who runs a little outfit called Selco who runs a little outfit called Selco that they do really interesting cool that they do really interesting cool that they do really interesting cool Village to Village Village to Village Village to Village they're like an energy analyst will come they're like an energy analyst will come they're like an energy analyst will come to your house here in the states and to your house here in the states and to your house here in the states and tell you how to weatherize your house tell you how to weatherize your house tell you how to weatherize your house but they do it at the Village scale but they do it at the Village scale but they do it at the Village scale and in a village that has um and in a village that has um and in a village that has um where they're Milling wheat he'll put in where they're Milling wheat he'll put in where they're Milling wheat he'll put in a solar powered wheat wheat Mill a solar powered wheat wheat Mill a solar powered wheat wheat Mill and and and you know that's not going to solve The you know that's not going to solve The you know that's not going to solve The World's problems but it gives them a way World's problems but it gives them a way World's problems but it gives them a way to control their energy they don't have to control their energy they don't have to control their energy they don't have to buy something to grind their wheat to buy something to grind their wheat to buy something to grind their wheat and that needs just as much attention as and that needs just as much attention as and that needs just as much attention as the the things I really like too the the the things I really like too the the the things I really like too the cool Technologies and and I I thought I cool Technologies and and I I thought I cool Technologies and and I I thought I cornered Bill the gates I was like cornered Bill the gates I was like cornered Bill the gates I was like because he really does focus on these because he really does focus on these because he really does focus on these big wins the big you know like nuclear big wins the big you know like nuclear big wins the big you know like nuclear that would make Net Zero completely that would make Net Zero completely that would make Net Zero completely doable and I said well you know doable and I said well you know doable and I said well you know what about nuclear like New York City

what about nuclear like New York City what about nuclear like New York City where I was still living at the time or where I was still living at the time or where I was still living at the time or near and I said it's got a million near and I said it's got a million near and I said it's got a million buildings buildings buildings New York City has one million buildings New York City has one million buildings New York City has one million buildings and in 2013 the Bloomberg government and in 2013 the Bloomberg government and in 2013 the Bloomberg government analyzed they said looking ahead to 2050 analyzed they said looking ahead to 2050 analyzed they said looking ahead to 2050 75 of the buildings in New York City 75 of the buildings in New York City 75 of the buildings in New York City that will exist in 2050 already exist that will exist in 2050 already exist that will exist in 2050 already exist think about these Brave New Futures think about these Brave New Futures think about these Brave New Futures right like we're just going to come in right like we're just going to come in right like we're just going to come in have these shiny cool passive house have these shiny cool passive house have these shiny cool passive house cities and I so I put this to Bill and I cities and I so I put this to Bill and I cities and I so I put this to Bill and I said so said so said so what's how do you do that how do you how what's how do you do that how do you how what's how do you do that how do you how do you retrofit all those boilers many do you retrofit all those boilers many do you retrofit all those boilers many of which were coal-fired like 20 years of which were coal-fired like 20 years of which were coal-fired like 20 years ago ago ago to get a zero energy New York City and to get a zero energy New York City and to get a zero energy New York City and he I thought I kind of thought I had him he I thought I kind of thought I had him he I thought I kind of thought I had him yeah he immediately he kind of sat back yeah he immediately he kind of sat back yeah he immediately he kind of sat back and went well but if you have unlimited and went well but if you have unlimited and went well but if you have unlimited clean power coming into that City it clean power coming into that City it clean power coming into that City it doesn't really matter doesn't really matter doesn't really matter it's a pretty good Bill Gates impression it's a pretty good Bill Gates impression it's a pretty good Bill Gates impression really good that's a good answer I mean really good that's a good answer I mean really good that's a good answer I mean there's a good he said oh yeah it's a there's a good he said oh yeah it's a there's a good he said oh yeah it's a leaky bucket but you know pour in zero leaky bucket but you know pour in zero leaky bucket but you know pour in zero carbon energy then it doesn't matter carbon energy then it doesn't matter carbon energy then it doesn't matter but I still think we have to figure out but I still think we have to figure out but I still think we have to figure out the other part too the that end how do the other part too the that end how do the other part too the that end how do you how do you innovate at the household you how do you innovate at the household you how do you innovate at the household level of the village level level of the village level level of the village level it's much more of a distributed problem it's much more of a distributed problem it's much more of a distributed problem we used to think the one the one big we used to think the one the one big we used to think the one the one big change I've had in my own thinking too change I've had in my own thinking too change I've had in my own thinking too is is is is from top down to distributed is from top down to distributed is from top down to distributed everything about the climate problem everything about the climate problem everything about the climate problem through the first three decades of my through the first three decades of my through the first three decades of my reporting was that the reporting was that the reporting was that the the ipcc will come out a new report the the ipcc will come out a new report the the ipcc will come out a new report the the framework convention the treaty will

the framework convention the treaty will the framework convention the treaty will get us on board get us on board get us on board we'll all behave better this it has this we'll all behave better this it has this we'll all behave better this it has this like top-down you know parent to child like top-down you know parent to child like top-down you know parent to child architecture architecture architecture and everything's I've learned has gone and everything's I've learned has gone and everything's I've learned has gone the other way it's distributed capacity the other way it's distributed capacity the other way it's distributed capacity for improved lives you know kids getting for improved lives you know kids getting for improved lives you know kids getting through school through school through school women not having to spend three hours women not having to spend three hours women not having to spend three hours collecting firewood and if it means collecting firewood and if it means collecting firewood and if it means propane for that household in that propane for that household in that propane for that household in that context that's a good thing so stop with context that's a good thing so stop with context that's a good thing so stop with all your yammering about ending all all your yammering about ending all all your yammering about ending all fossil fuel subsidies and fossil fuel subsidies and fossil fuel subsidies and you know what's in America look like you know what's in America look like you know what's in America look like that has some claim climate safe Energy that has some claim climate safe Energy that has some claim climate safe Energy Future Future Future find your part in that find your part in that find your part in that don't get disempowered by the scale of don't get disempowered by the scale of don't get disempowered by the scale of it there's just like a thousand things it there's just like a thousand things it there's just like a thousand things to do when you start to cut it into to do when you start to cut it into to do when you start to cut it into pieces so so it's very different it's pieces so so it's very different it's pieces so so it's very different it's not a top-down thing not a top-down thing not a top-down thing you know no one's going to magically you know no one's going to magically you know no one's going to magically come in and and and that's that's where come in and and and that's that's where come in and and and that's that's where I think so I agree that everyone should I think so I agree that everyone should I think so I agree that everyone should try to play their their part and and and try to play their their part and and and try to play their their part and and and do you know whatever they can uh but I do you know whatever they can uh but I do you know whatever they can uh but I also think you know just the the sheer also think you know just the the sheer also think you know just the the sheer incentives you know what we saw incentives you know what we saw incentives you know what we saw happening with you know with the Shale happening with you know with the Shale happening with you know with the Shale gas is a great example when Shale gas gas is a great example when Shale gas gas is a great example when Shale gas becomes so cheap that you just stop becomes so cheap that you just stop becomes so cheap that you just stop using coal but then you don't really using coal but then you don't really using coal but then you don't really have to convince you know lots and lots have to convince you know lots and lots have to convince you know lots and lots of people you know because it wasn't of people you know because it wasn't of people you know because it wasn't labeled a climate no it wasn't a climate labeled a climate no it wasn't a climate labeled a climate no it wasn't a climate thing it was an energy thing it was thing it was an energy thing it was thing it was an energy thing it was totally uh and and and the point is just totally uh and and and the point is just totally uh and and and the point is just you know the power of an innovation is you know the power of an innovation is you know the power of an innovation is that you you almost don't see it anymore that you you almost don't see it anymore that you you almost don't see it anymore it just happens uh and and I think

it just happens uh and and I think it just happens uh and and I think that's really the only way we're gonna that's really the only way we're gonna that's really the only way we're gonna fix you know these big problems if you fix you know these big problems if you fix you know these big problems if you think about you know of the uh nutrition think about you know of the uh nutrition think about you know of the uh nutrition problem back in the 60s 70s uh we problem back in the 60s 70s uh we problem back in the 60s 70s uh we worried a lot about India and other worried a lot about India and other worried a lot about India and other places uh solution is not worrying or places uh solution is not worrying or places uh solution is not worrying or the solution was not you know us eating the solution was not you know us eating the solution was not you know us eating a little bit less and sending it down to a little bit less and sending it down to a little bit less and sending it down to India wherever the solution was the India wherever the solution was the India wherever the solution was the Green Revolution right it was the fact Green Revolution right it was the fact Green Revolution right it was the fact that some scientists made ways to make that some scientists made ways to make that some scientists made ways to make every seed produce three times as much every seed produce three times as much every seed produce three times as much so you could grow three times as much so you could grow three times as much so you could grow three times as much food on an acre and you know that's what food on an acre and you know that's what food on an acre and you know that's what basically made it possible for India to basically made it possible for India to basically made it possible for India to go from a basket case to what the go from a basket case to what the go from a basket case to what the world's leading uh rice exporter uh and world's leading uh rice exporter uh and world's leading uh rice exporter uh and and and that's how you do these things and and that's how you do these things and and that's how you do these things you know you solve these big problems you know you solve these big problems you know you solve these big problems true Innovation and again I'm not saying true Innovation and again I'm not saying true Innovation and again I'm not saying that you know we're actually arcing our that you know we're actually arcing our that you know we're actually arcing our carbon tax is a smart thing to do you carbon tax is a smart thing to do you carbon tax is a smart thing to do you know that's what any Economist would know that's what any Economist would know that's what any Economist would tell you to do but it also turns out tell you to do but it also turns out tell you to do but it also turns out that it's partly is not going to solve that it's partly is not going to solve that it's partly is not going to solve most of the problem and it's incredibly most of the problem and it's incredibly most of the problem and it's incredibly politically hard to do so it may also politically hard to do so it may also politically hard to do so it may also just be the wrong sort of tree to bark just be the wrong sort of tree to bark just be the wrong sort of tree to bark up against you know if you can do it up against you know if you can do it up against you know if you can do it please do uh but this is not the main please do uh but this is not the main please do uh but this is not the main thing that's going to solve climate the thing that's going to solve climate the thing that's going to solve climate the the main thing is that we get these the main thing is that we get these the main thing is that we get these innovations that basically make green innovations that basically make green innovations that basically make green energy so cheap everyone will just want energy so cheap everyone will just want energy so cheap everyone will just want we mentioned nuclear quite a few times we mentioned nuclear quite a few times we mentioned nuclear quite a few times yeah that you know there was a for a yeah that you know there was a for a yeah that you know there was a for a long time it seems to have shifted long time it seems to have shifted long time it seems to have shifted recently maybe you can clarify and recently maybe you can clarify and recently maybe you can clarify and educate me on this but there for the educate me on this but there for the educate me on this but there for the longest time people thought that nuclear longest time people thought that nuclear longest time people thought that nuclear is um is um is um is almost unclean energy or dangerous

is almost unclean energy or dangerous is almost unclean energy or dangerous energy or all that kind of stuff when energy or all that kind of stuff when energy or all that kind of stuff when did that shift what was the source of did that shift what was the source of did that shift what was the source of that alarmism uh and what maybe is that that alarmism uh and what maybe is that that alarmism uh and what maybe is that a case study of how alarmism can turn a case study of how alarmism can turn a case study of how alarmism can turn into into into um though a productive constructive um though a productive constructive um though a productive constructive policy policy policy productive from whose standpoint productive from whose standpoint productive from whose standpoint um is it not is it not like uh nuclear um is it not is it not like uh nuclear um is it not is it not like uh nuclear we're not trying to do you mean we're not trying to do you mean we're not trying to do you mean productive in terms of yay we banned it productive in terms of yay we banned it productive in terms of yay we banned it or protect it for those oh I see I see or protect it for those oh I see I see or protect it for those oh I see I see what you mean yes I meant productive for what you mean yes I meant productive for what you mean yes I meant productive for human civilization no the alarmism over human civilization no the alarmism over human civilization no the alarmism over nuclear power dominated any alarmism nuclear power dominated any alarmism nuclear power dominated any alarmism over global warming over global warming over global warming absolutely yeah really oh yeah just in absolutely yeah really oh yeah just in absolutely yeah really oh yeah just in the United States um Three Mile Island the United States um Three Mile Island the United States um Three Mile Island then you turn Chernobyl there then you turn Chernobyl there then you turn Chernobyl there and the traditional environmental and the traditional environmental and the traditional environmental movement will still won't go there they movement will still won't go there they movement will still won't go there they still still still the big groups nrdc edfs that whole the big groups nrdc edfs that whole the big groups nrdc edfs that whole alphabet soup of the big greens are alphabet soup of the big greens are alphabet soup of the big greens are reluctant to put forward the nuclear reluctant to put forward the nuclear reluctant to put forward the nuclear option because they know a lot of their option because they know a lot of their option because they know a lot of their aging donors aging donors aging donors basically grew up in the thinking about basically grew up in the thinking about basically grew up in the thinking about nuclear as as the problem not the nuclear as as the problem not the nuclear as as the problem not the solution I lived for the last 30 years I solution I lived for the last 30 years I solution I lived for the last 30 years I moved to Maine recently uh moved to Maine recently uh moved to Maine recently uh but I lived in Hudson Valley 10 miles but I lived in Hudson Valley 10 miles but I lived in Hudson Valley 10 miles from the Indian Point Nuclear Power from the Indian Point Nuclear Power from the Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant which was built in the 60s 70s Plant which was built in the 60s 70s Plant which was built in the 60s 70s and had some problems none of them were and had some problems none of them were and had some problems none of them were to the point of to the point of to the point of a meltdown or the threat of it or even a meltdown or the threat of it or even a meltdown or the threat of it or even the theoretical possibility of one

the theoretical possibility of one the theoretical possibility of one I've been I was in it twice as a I've been I was in it twice as a I've been I was in it twice as a reporter you know looking down in the reporter you know looking down in the reporter you know looking down in the cooling pool I can send you a fun video cooling pool I can send you a fun video cooling pool I can send you a fun video of bubbles in the cooling pool with the of bubbles in the cooling pool with the of bubbles in the cooling pool with the rods and rods and rods and progressively they demonstrated how to progressively they demonstrated how to progressively they demonstrated how to handle waste in the United States now handle waste in the United States now handle waste in the United States now the waste is uh because we haven't the waste is uh because we haven't the waste is uh because we haven't figured out how to move it across state figured out how to move it across state figured out how to move it across state lines lines lines it's uh it's uh it's uh glassified it's put into kind of glassified it's put into kind of glassified it's put into kind of containers that sit there at the plant containers that sit there at the plant containers that sit there at the plant we just simply don't have a long-term we just simply don't have a long-term we just simply don't have a long-term solution solution solution um um um the Nevada the Nevada the Nevada politicians were successful in saying politicians were successful in saying politicians were successful in saying not here not here not Yucca Mountain and not here not here not Yucca Mountain and not here not here not Yucca Mountain and um um um but my wife who I've been married to but my wife who I've been married to but my wife who I've been married to well I met 30 years ago and she lives well I met 30 years ago and she lives well I met 30 years ago and she lives with me she's an environmental educator with me she's an environmental educator with me she's an environmental educator she was very happy when Cuomo shut it she was very happy when Cuomo shut it she was very happy when Cuomo shut it down down down said we're going to shut it down three said we're going to shut it down three said we're going to shut it down three or three or four years ago which just or three or four years ago which just or three or four years ago which just happened a year it actually is shut down happened a year it actually is shut down happened a year it actually is shut down now it's being mothballed and I was like now it's being mothballed and I was like now it's being mothballed and I was like that sucks we need if she's happy yeah that sucks we need if she's happy yeah that sucks we need if she's happy yeah and we still love each other she's and we still love each other she's and we still love each other she's environmentalist so that that just environmentalist so that that just environmentalist so that that just speaks to a lot of environmentals still speaks to a lot of environmentals still speaks to a lot of environmentals still see nuclear as bad oh totally oh yeah see nuclear as bad oh totally oh yeah see nuclear as bad oh totally oh yeah you know and you bring in the way the you know and you bring in the way the you know and you bring in the way the weapons proliferation issues and but weapons proliferation issues and but weapons proliferation issues and but it's a safety thing it's a generational it's a safety thing it's a generational it's a safety thing it's a generational thing I think young people are different thing I think young people are different thing I think young people are different I hope I hope I hope these small modular reactor designs these small modular reactor designs these small modular reactor designs several of which there's a couple of several of which there's a couple of several of which there's a couple of phds from phds from phds from MIT who did transatomic power they're

MIT who did transatomic power they're MIT who did transatomic power they're both like in their early 30s both like in their early 30s both like in their early 30s we need so much more of them and just we need so much more of them and just we need so much more of them and just briefly the one thing I say about briefly the one thing I say about briefly the one thing I say about nuclear is like with so many of these nuclear is like with so many of these nuclear is like with so many of these things like subsidies don't talk to me things like subsidies don't talk to me things like subsidies don't talk to me about yes no nuclear talk to me about about yes no nuclear talk to me about about yes no nuclear talk to me about what do you want to do with existing what do you want to do with existing what do you want to do with existing nuclear power plants nuclear power plants nuclear power plants and what do you want to do about the and what do you want to do about the and what do you want to do about the possibility of new ones let's parse this possibility of new ones let's parse this possibility of new ones let's parse this out in chunks that we can have out in chunks that we can have out in chunks that we can have constructive conversations about the constructive conversations about the constructive conversations about the idea of no nuclear drives me crazy just idea of no nuclear drives me crazy just idea of no nuclear drives me crazy just like no fossil fuel subsidies is silly like no fossil fuel subsidies is silly like no fossil fuel subsidies is silly in the world we inhabit that has these in the world we inhabit that has these in the world we inhabit that has these pockets of with no energy so that that's pockets of with no energy so that that's pockets of with no energy so that that's just my you know my sustain what mantras just my you know my sustain what mantras just my you know my sustain what mantras start with some dividing it and divide start with some dividing it and divide start with some dividing it and divide and conquer to conquer the dispute over and conquer to conquer the dispute over and conquer to conquer the dispute over by saying let's at least get real by saying let's at least get real by saying let's at least get real this power plant has been in the Hudson this power plant has been in the Hudson this power plant has been in the Hudson Valley for 30 years it was the base load Valley for 30 years it was the base load Valley for 30 years it was the base load it was base load base load is a real it was base load base load is a real it was base load base load is a real thing thing thing and guess what has filled the Gap since and guess what has filled the Gap since and guess what has filled the Gap since that power plant is turned off that power plant is turned off that power plant is turned off natural gas natural gas but and you natural gas natural gas but and you natural gas natural gas but and you don't hear that from the environmental don't hear that from the environmental don't hear that from the environmental community that was so eager to turn off community that was so eager to turn off community that was so eager to turn off the Indian Point I I think both the the Indian Point I I think both the the Indian Point I I think both the point of you know saying that people are point of you know saying that people are point of you know saying that people are saying it's the end of the world but no saying it's the end of the world but no saying it's the end of the world but no I don't want a new clip it just doesn't I don't want a new clip it just doesn't I don't want a new clip it just doesn't make sense right make sense right make sense right um and Andy's absolutely right to talk um and Andy's absolutely right to talk um and Andy's absolutely right to talk about so existing nuclear power plants about so existing nuclear power plants about so existing nuclear power plants we already paid for them we already have we already paid for them we already have we already paid for them we already have them we already committed to them we already committed to them we already committed to decommissioning them eventually while

decommissioning them eventually while decommissioning them eventually while they're running they're pretty much the they're running they're pretty much the they're running they're pretty much the cheapest power you can possibly have on cheapest power you can possibly have on cheapest power you can possibly have on the planet because it costs almost the planet because it costs almost the planet because it costs almost nothing to run them day to day so you nothing to run them day to day so you nothing to run them day to day so you know it's basically cheap or almost free know it's basically cheap or almost free know it's basically cheap or almost free CO2 base load power there's just nothing CO2 base load power there's just nothing CO2 base load power there's just nothing there that is that doesn't you know you there that is that doesn't you know you there that is that doesn't you know you should embrace now new nuclear power should embrace now new nuclear power should embrace now new nuclear power plants turn out to be very expensive plants turn out to be very expensive plants turn out to be very expensive currently so you know the one they built currently so you know the one they built currently so you know the one they built in Finland and some and and and and the in Finland and some and and and and the in Finland and some and and and and the UK and France and several other places UK and France and several other places UK and France and several other places turn out to be incredibly expensive so turn out to be incredibly expensive so turn out to be incredibly expensive so they're much more expensive than you they're much more expensive than you they're much more expensive than you know the the the costliest uh Renewables know the the the costliest uh Renewables know the the the costliest uh Renewables you can imagine so they're actually not you can imagine so they're actually not you can imagine so they're actually not a solution right now a solution right now a solution right now and that's why we need the Innovation and that's why we need the Innovation and that's why we need the Innovation that's why we need the potentially that's why we need the potentially that's why we need the potentially fourth generation new clip how it's just fourth generation new clip how it's just fourth generation new clip how it's just simply it's a bad deal and that's why simply it's a bad deal and that's why simply it's a bad deal and that's why you know nuclear is never going to win you know nuclear is never going to win you know nuclear is never going to win on its third generation now it may never on its third generation now it may never on its third generation now it may never get there you know who knows but it's get there you know who knows but it's get there you know who knows but it's certainly a a a a a a possibility and we certainly a a a a a a possibility and we certainly a a a a a a possibility and we should be looking into it and there are should be looking into it and there are should be looking into it and there are there are you know wonky realities that there are you know wonky realities that there are you know wonky realities that need to be dealt with the nuclear need to be dealt with the nuclear need to be dealt with the nuclear Regulatory Commission in the United Regulatory Commission in the United Regulatory Commission in the United States their approval process is still States their approval process is still States their approval process is still locked and designed on this 50 year old locked and designed on this 50 year old locked and designed on this 50 year old model of big giant power plants there's model of big giant power plants there's model of big giant power plants there's an intense discussion right now about an intense discussion right now about an intense discussion right now about evolving a new regulatory scheme for evolving a new regulatory scheme for evolving a new regulatory scheme for small modular ones because of all these small modular ones because of all these small modular ones because of all these implicit advantages they offer and that implicit advantages they offer and that implicit advantages they offer and that so it along with the Innovation you need

so it along with the Innovation you need so it along with the Innovation you need to have this to have this to have this right get out of the way or you're never right get out of the way or you're never right get out of the way or you're never going to have the investment so it going to have the investment so it going to have the investment so it really isn't all the above thing and really isn't all the above thing and really isn't all the above thing and looking at these systems uh problems looking at these systems uh problems looking at these systems uh problems systems Solutions is really important systems Solutions is really important systems Solutions is really important uh let me ask you about Alex Epstein uh let me ask you about Alex Epstein uh let me ask you about Alex Epstein so he wrote I'm not sure if you're so he wrote I'm not sure if you're so he wrote I'm not sure if you're familiar who he is but he wrote a couple familiar who he is but he wrote a couple familiar who he is but he wrote a couple of books it's just interesting to ask a of books it's just interesting to ask a of books it's just interesting to ask a question about fossil fuels because question about fossil fuels because question about fossil fuels because we're talking about reality and he's we're talking about reality and he's we're talking about reality and he's somebody that doesn't just talk about somebody that doesn't just talk about somebody that doesn't just talk about the reality of fossil fuels but he wrote the reality of fossil fuels but he wrote the reality of fossil fuels but he wrote a book uh moral case of fossil fuels and a book uh moral case of fossil fuels and a book uh moral case of fossil fuels and uh fossil future where he makes the case uh fossil future where he makes the case uh fossil future where he makes the case that as a subtitle says Global human that as a subtitle says Global human that as a subtitle says Global human flourishing requires oil coal and flourishing requires oil coal and flourishing requires oil coal and natural gas or more oil coil and natural natural gas or more oil coil and natural natural gas or more oil coil and natural gas not less gas not less gas not less uh what do you think about the argument uh what do you think about the argument uh what do you think about the argument he makes so he he pushes we've had this he makes so he he pushes we've had this he makes so he he pushes we've had this kind of speaking of the center of this kind of speaking of the center of this kind of speaking of the center of this balanced discussion of the reality of balanced discussion of the reality of balanced discussion of the reality of fossil fuels but also investing a lot fossil fuels but also investing a lot fossil fuels but also investing a lot into renewable energy and that having into renewable energy and that having into renewable energy and that having the one dollar to eleven dollar return the one dollar to eleven dollar return the one dollar to eleven dollar return so he says like so he says like so he says like well I'm not sure exactly how to frame well I'm not sure exactly how to frame well I'm not sure exactly how to frame it but like investing and maintaining it but like investing and maintaining it but like investing and maintaining investment to fossil fuels also as a investment to fossil fuels also as a investment to fossil fuels also as a positive return because of how efficient positive return because of how efficient positive return because of how efficient the energy is I've read the first book the energy is I've read the first book the energy is I've read the first book yeah I haven't read I've got this second yeah I haven't read I've got this second yeah I haven't read I've got this second one I've been planning to have them on one I've been planning to have them on one I've been planning to have them on my webcast my tiny webcast my webcast my tiny webcast my webcast my tiny webcast no he makes the name of the webcast

no he makes the name of the webcast no he makes the name of the webcast sustain what everything I do is sustain sustain what everything I do is sustain sustain what everything I do is sustain what because it's like don't talk to me what because it's like don't talk to me what because it's like don't talk to me about sustainability sustain what for about sustainability sustain what for about sustainability sustain what for whom how then we're talking you know whom how then we're talking you know whom how then we're talking you know um interrogatory approach to things so um interrogatory approach to things so um interrogatory approach to things so um um um I think the valuable part of what he has I think the valuable part of what he has I think the valuable part of what he has done is to remind people done is to remind people done is to remind people particularly in the west or north or particularly in the west or north or particularly in the west or north or whatever the developed world that whatever the developed world that whatever the developed world that everything we take for granted everything we take for granted everything we take for granted low fertilizer from low fertilizer low fertilizer from low fertilizer low fertilizer from low fertilizer prices to air conditioning to everything prices to air conditioning to everything prices to air conditioning to everything else exists because we had this bounty else exists because we had this bounty else exists because we had this bounty that we dug out of the ground or pumped that we dug out of the ground or pumped that we dug out of the ground or pumped out of the ground out of the ground out of the ground it's a boon it's been an amazing Boon to it's a boon it's been an amazing Boon to it's a boon it's been an amazing Boon to society period so start there which society period so start there which society period so start there which means going forward what we're talking means going forward what we're talking means going forward what we're talking about is a substitution about is a substitution about is a substitution or or or having your fossil fuel isn't eating it having your fossil fuel isn't eating it having your fossil fuel isn't eating it too meaning getting rid of the carbon too meaning getting rid of the carbon too meaning getting rid of the carbon dioxide if you focus on the carbon dioxide if you focus on the carbon dioxide if you focus on the carbon dioxide dioxide dioxide which is the thing warming the planet which is the thing warming the planet which is the thing warming the planet not the burning of the fuels not the burning of the fuels not the burning of the fuels then that's another way forward that then that's another way forward that then that's another way forward that could sustain fossil fuels as far as I could sustain fossil fuels as far as I could sustain fossil fuels as far as I can tell from at least the first book he can tell from at least the first book he can tell from at least the first book he makes the moral case the fossil fuels makes the moral case the fossil fuels makes the moral case the fossil fuels are essentially a good are essentially a good are essentially a good overall overall overall um I don't think he adequately accounts um I don't think he adequately accounts um I don't think he adequately accounts for the need for the need for the need to stop global warming you know I think to stop global warming you know I think to stop global warming you know I think that we have to slow slowing global that we have to slow slowing global that we have to slow slowing global warming is a fundamental need in this warming is a fundamental need in this warming is a fundamental need in this coming in this Century we're in coming in this Century we're in coming in this Century we're in and that's just not factored into his and that's just not factored into his and that's just not factored into his math well I think that's where and I've

math well I think that's where and I've math well I think that's where and I've had a few sort of offline conversations had a few sort of offline conversations had a few sort of offline conversations with them and I think he he said because with them and I think he he said because with them and I think he he said because I mentioned I'm talking to the two you I mentioned I'm talking to the two you I mentioned I'm talking to the two you said that he that's probably why he said that he that's probably why he said that he that's probably why he disagrees about sort of the the level of disagrees about sort of the the level of disagrees about sort of the the level of threat that threat that threat that um global warming causes well Steve coon um global warming causes well Steve coon um global warming causes well Steve coon and there's another one uh he he's a and there's another one uh he he's a and there's another one uh he he's a brilliant guy he lived right close to me brilliant guy he lived right close to me brilliant guy he lived right close to me in Hudson Valley he was in the Obama in Hudson Valley he was in the Obama in Hudson Valley he was in the Obama Administration energy Department it's Administration energy Department it's Administration energy Department it's k-o-n-i-n he wrote a bestseller that k-o-n-i-n he wrote a bestseller that k-o-n-i-n he wrote a bestseller that came out recently on came out recently on came out recently on skepticism about climate and other there are other smart people who other there are other smart people who somehow feel we can literally adapt our somehow feel we can literally adapt our somehow feel we can literally adapt our way forward without any constraint on way forward without any constraint on way forward without any constraint on the gases changing the climate and I you the gases changing the climate and I you the gases changing the climate and I you know know know I've spent enough time on this I I think I've spent enough time on this I I think I've spent enough time on this I I think I'm pretty level-headed reporter when it I'm pretty level-headed reporter when it I'm pretty level-headed reporter when it comes to this issue and I think having comes to this issue and I think having comes to this issue and I think having some sense that some sense that some sense that we can adapt our way into the world we can adapt our way into the world we can adapt our way into the world we're building through Relentless we're building through Relentless we're building through Relentless climate change with no new normal climate change with no new normal climate change with no new normal remember remember remember more gas accumulating in the air every more gas accumulating in the air every more gas accumulating in the air every year year year these are not static moments these are not static moments these are not static moments that that's a good thing to do is that that's a good thing to do is that that's a good thing to do is doesn't strike me as doesn't strike me as doesn't strike me as um um um smart I'll probably say that I I think smart I'll probably say that I I think smart I'll probably say that I I think it's more sort of a at least the thing it's more sort of a at least the thing it's more sort of a at least the thing that I take away from Alex is that I take away from Alex is that I take away from Alex is um is the fact as as you point out that um is the fact as as you point out that um is the fact as as you point out that we need to recognize that fossil fuels we need to recognize that fossil fuels we need to recognize that fossil fuels is basically the backbone of our society is basically the backbone of our society is basically the backbone of our society today we get 80 of our energy from

today we get 80 of our energy from today we get 80 of our energy from fossil fuels to still as we did 50 years fossil fuels to still as we did 50 years fossil fuels to still as we did 50 years yeah four years ago yeah yeah and and yeah four years ago yeah yeah and and yeah four years ago yeah yeah and and people have no sense of this right so people have no sense of this right so people have no sense of this right so they have the idea because you see so they have the idea because you see so they have the idea because you see so many wind turbines and solar panels and many wind turbines and solar panels and many wind turbines and solar panels and everybody's talking about that this is everybody's talking about that this is everybody's talking about that this is huge big things but the reality is huge big things but the reality is huge big things but the reality is remember only about a fifth of all remember only about a fifth of all remember only about a fifth of all energy uses electricity the rest is you energy uses electricity the rest is you energy uses electricity the rest is you know in processes and heating industrial know in processes and heating industrial know in processes and heating industrial processes and so on so uh actually you processes and so on so uh actually you processes and so on so uh actually you know solar and wind right now produces know solar and wind right now produces know solar and wind right now produces one percent from of of energy from wind one percent from of of energy from wind one percent from of of energy from wind and 0.8 percent from solar this is not a and 0.8 percent from solar this is not a and 0.8 percent from solar this is not a huge thing it's a fairly tiny bit and huge thing it's a fairly tiny bit and huge thing it's a fairly tiny bit and growing explosively yes it's absolutely growing explosively yes it's absolutely growing explosively yes it's absolutely gross but actually it's growing slower gross but actually it's growing slower gross but actually it's growing slower than what nuclear it was growing in the than what nuclear it was growing in the than what nuclear it was growing in the 70s and 80s which I thought was a fun 70s and 80s which I thought was a fun 70s and 80s which I thought was a fun Point not by a little amount by like two Point not by a little amount by like two Point not by a little amount by like two or three times so so we're we're still or three times so so we're we're still or three times so so we're we're still talking about you know something which talking about you know something which talking about you know something which is you know somewhat Boutique at least is you know somewhat Boutique at least is you know somewhat Boutique at least and and when you then look out into the and and when you then look out into the and and when you then look out into the future and and I think this is the future and and I think this is the future and and I think this is the interesting part of it when you look out interesting part of it when you look out interesting part of it when you look out into the future if you look at the Biden into the future if you look at the Biden into the future if you look at the Biden administration's own estimate of what administration's own estimate of what administration's own estimate of what will happen by 2050.

will happen by 2050. will happen by 2050. we will be at you know if all countries we will be at you know if all countries we will be at you know if all countries do all the stuff that they promised and do all the stuff that they promised and do all the stuff that they promised and everything we will be at 70 percent everything we will be at 70 percent everything we will be at 70 percent fossil fuels by 2050. globally this this fossil fuels by 2050. globally this this fossil fuels by 2050. globally this this is just yes it's a it's a better world I is just yes it's a it's a better world I is just yes it's a it's a better world I I think it's good that we're now down to I think it's good that we're now down to I think it's good that we're now down to 70 instead of uh of 80. but it is still 70 instead of uh of 80. but it is still 70 instead of uh of 80. but it is still a world that's fundamentally dependent a world that's fundamentally dependent a world that's fundamentally dependent on fossil fuels for almost everything on fossil fuels for almost everything on fossil fuels for almost everything that we really like about the world and that we really like about the world and that we really like about the world and forgetting that and I think we are doing forgetting that and I think we are doing forgetting that and I think we are doing that in the sense as you also mentioned that in the sense as you also mentioned that in the sense as you also mentioned that people say no fossil fuels and you that people say no fossil fuels and you that people say no fossil fuels and you know we're in all development know we're in all development know we're in all development organizations we're now telling the poor organizations we're now telling the poor organizations we're now telling the poor countries you can't get any funding for countries you can't get any funding for countries you can't get any funding for anything that has to do with fossil anything that has to do with fossil anything that has to do with fossil fuels we have literally reduced our our fuels we have literally reduced our our fuels we have literally reduced our our uh investment in uh in oil and gas by uh investment in uh in oil and gas by uh investment in uh in oil and gas by more than half since 2014 and much of more than half since 2014 and much of more than half since 2014 and much of this is because of climate concerns this this is because of climate concerns this this is because of climate concerns this has real world consequences this is why has real world consequences this is why has real world consequences this is why and Enterprises have gone up it's not and Enterprises have gone up it's not and Enterprises have gone up it's not the only reason covet also certainly the the only reason covet also certainly the the only reason covet also certainly the war in Ukraine but this is an underlying war in Ukraine but this is an underlying war in Ukraine but this is an underlying systemic reason why fossil fuel costs systemic reason why fossil fuel costs systemic reason why fossil fuel costs will go up dramatically now a lot of will go up dramatically now a lot of will go up dramatically now a lot of greens will sort of tend to say well greens will sort of tend to say well greens will sort of tend to say well that's great because you know we want that's great because you know we want that's great because you know we want fossil fuels to be expensive we want fossil fuels to be expensive we want fossil fuels to be expensive we want people to be forced over to Renewables people to be forced over to Renewables people to be forced over to Renewables but that's very easy to say if you're but that's very easy to say if you're but that's very easy to say if you're rich you know it's the kind of thing rich you know it's the kind of thing rich you know it's the kind of thing that New Yorkers will say you know when that New Yorkers will say you know when that New Yorkers will say you know when when you go to Rich well-meaning uh when you go to Rich well-meaning uh when you go to Rich well-meaning uh Green New Yorkers and say Yes gasoline

Green New Yorkers and say Yes gasoline Green New Yorkers and say Yes gasoline should cost twenty dollars a gallon well should cost twenty dollars a gallon well should cost twenty dollars a gallon well you don't have a car just right at the you don't have a car just right at the you don't have a car just right at the Metro it's very easy for you to say that Metro it's very easy for you to say that Metro it's very easy for you to say that but lots of people both in the rich but lots of people both in the rich but lots of people both in the rich world but you know in in poor parts of world but you know in in poor parts of world but you know in in poor parts of the U.S but all around the world their the U.S but all around the world their the U.S but all around the world their lives have basically dependent on fossil lives have basically dependent on fossil lives have basically dependent on fossil fuels and so the idea that we're going fuels and so the idea that we're going fuels and so the idea that we're going to get people off by making it so to get people off by making it so to get people off by making it so expensive that it becomes impossible for expensive that it becomes impossible for expensive that it becomes impossible for them to live good lives is almost them to live good lives is almost them to live good lives is almost morally reprehensible and I think Alex morally reprehensible and I think Alex morally reprehensible and I think Alex has the right point there we need to get has the right point there we need to get has the right point there we need to get people to realize we're not going to get people to realize we're not going to get people to realize we're not going to get off fossil fuels anytime soon so we need off fossil fuels anytime soon so we need off fossil fuels anytime soon so we need reasonably affordable fossil fuels for reasonably affordable fossil fuels for reasonably affordable fossil fuels for most of the world and that's of course most of the world and that's of course most of the world and that's of course course why we need to focus so much more course why we need to focus so much more course why we need to focus so much more on the Innovation so that we can get to on the Innovation so that we can get to on the Innovation so that we can get to the point where we no longer need fossil the point where we no longer need fossil the point where we no longer need fossil fuels as soon as possible but to say to fuels as soon as possible but to say to fuels as soon as possible but to say to everyone look we're going to make fossil everyone look we're going to make fossil everyone look we're going to make fossil fuels expensive way before we have the fuels expensive way before we have the fuels expensive way before we have the solution is just terrible and the rich solution is just terrible and the rich solution is just terrible and the rich the so much is on the rich countries of the so much is on the rich countries of the so much is on the rich countries of the world the world the world um um um I did a conversation recently with I did a conversation recently with I did a conversation recently with Johann rockstrom who's a famed Johann rockstrom who's a famed Johann rockstrom who's a famed sustainability scientist in Stockholm sustainability scientist in Stockholm sustainability scientist in Stockholm actually Potsdam now um right and he's actually Potsdam now um right and he's actually Potsdam now um right and he's come up with the idea of planetary come up with the idea of planetary come up with the idea of planetary boundaries you know there's lots of boundaries you know there's lots of boundaries you know there's lots of things he has said that I as a things he has said that I as a things he has said that I as a journalist I'm still looking into about journalist I'm still looking into about journalist I'm still looking into about that planetary boundaries yeah that that planetary boundaries yeah that that planetary boundaries yeah that there are limits to what Earth can there are limits to what Earth can there are limits to what Earth can absorb in human our use of water absorb in human our use of water absorb in human our use of water phosphorus or carbon dioxide loading in phosphorus or carbon dioxide loading in phosphorus or carbon dioxide loading in the atmosphere there are these tipping the atmosphere there are these tipping the atmosphere there are these tipping there are these boundaries if we cross there are these boundaries if we cross there are these boundaries if we cross them we're in a Hot Zone a danger zone

them we're in a Hot Zone a danger zone them we're in a Hot Zone a danger zone right he's an interesting thinker but on right he's an interesting thinker but on right he's an interesting thinker but on this point last year at the Glasgow this point last year at the Glasgow this point last year at the Glasgow climate talks he gave a very important climate talks he gave a very important climate talks he gave a very important talk about talk about talk about the equity thing here that you the equity thing here that you the equity thing here that you he basically laid out a landscape he basically laid out a landscape he basically laid out a landscape saying the rich nations of the world saying the rich nations of the world saying the rich nations of the world need to greatly ramp up their reduction need to greatly ramp up their reduction need to greatly ramp up their reduction of emissions or what they're going to of emissions or what they're going to of emissions or what they're going to pay for countries to do pay for countries to do pay for countries to do to allow poor countries to allow poor countries to allow poor countries some of which have fossil resources like some of which have fossil resources like some of which have fossil resources like in Africa to have the carbon space to to in Africa to have the carbon space to to in Africa to have the carbon space to to own whatever space or time is left to be own whatever space or time is left to be own whatever space or time is left to be able to develop their their able to develop their their able to develop their their fossil fuels fossil fuels fossil fuels as a fundamental right because also as a fundamental right because also as a fundamental right because also they're starting from this little they're starting from this little they're starting from this little Baseline gagana hasn't contributed squat Baseline gagana hasn't contributed squat Baseline gagana hasn't contributed squat to the global warming problem in terms to the global warming problem in terms to the global warming problem in terms of emissions Ghana has natural gas and of emissions Ghana has natural gas and of emissions Ghana has natural gas and right now this month the environmental right now this month the environmental right now this month the environmental groups are groups are groups are outside the world bank today actually outside the world bank today actually outside the world bank today actually tonight tonight tonight saying this was on their list of dirty saying this was on their list of dirty saying this was on their list of dirty projects World Bank should stop projects World Bank should stop projects World Bank should stop financing Ghana's right to get gas out financing Ghana's right to get gas out financing Ghana's right to get gas out of the ground to develop its economy get of the ground to develop its economy get of the ground to develop its economy get its people less poor make them more its people less poor make them more its people less poor make them more productive Innovative parts of humanity productive Innovative parts of humanity productive Innovative parts of humanity it's to me that's really reprehensible it's to me that's really reprehensible it's to me that's really reprehensible one of the other projects on their list one of the other projects on their list one of the other projects on their list as the World Bank kind of gotcha like as the World Bank kind of gotcha like as the World Bank kind of gotcha like how dare they give money how dare they give money how dare they give money was for a new for a fertilizer Factory was for a new for a fertilizer Factory was for a new for a fertilizer Factory in Bangladesh in Bangladesh in Bangladesh that is designed to get three times as that is designed to get three times as that is designed to get three times as much fertilizer from the same amount of

much fertilizer from the same amount of much fertilizer from the same amount of natural gas as the old plants that are natural gas as the old plants that are natural gas as the old plants that are not dormant not dormant not dormant that's this is in a time when we're that's this is in a time when we're that's this is in a time when we're facing High Energy prices high gas facing High Energy prices high gas facing High Energy prices high gas prices high high food prices when food prices high high food prices when food prices high high food prices when food insecurity is spreading rapidly when a insecurity is spreading rapidly when a insecurity is spreading rapidly when a country like Bangladesh has millions of country like Bangladesh has millions of country like Bangladesh has millions of rice farmers who need rice farmers who need rice farmers who need urea urea urea tablets to put in the rice fields and to tablets to put in the rice fields and to tablets to put in the rice fields and to say that shouldn't that that how dare say that shouldn't that that how dare say that shouldn't that that how dare they finance that because there's a they finance that because there's a they finance that because there's a fossil fuel involved is demoral so so fossil fuel involved is demoral so so fossil fuel involved is demoral so so yes on that point from Alex so this is yes on that point from Alex so this is yes on that point from Alex so this is 2022 poll 2022 poll 2022 poll polls polls polls uh just this is a bunch of different uh just this is a bunch of different uh just this is a bunch of different ways to look at the same basic effect in ways to look at the same basic effect in ways to look at the same basic effect in the United States the United States the United States Democrats younger Americans identify Democrats younger Americans identify Democrats younger Americans identify dealing with climate change is the top dealing with climate change is the top dealing with climate change is the top priority U.S adults priority U.S adults priority U.S adults 42 say uh 42 say that dealing with 42 say uh 42 say that dealing with 42 say uh 42 say that dealing with climate change should be a top priority climate change should be a top priority climate change should be a top priority 11 of Republicans 65 percent of 11 of Republicans 65 percent of 11 of Republicans 65 percent of Democrats Democrats Democrats and we could see this effect and we could see this effect and we could see this effect throughout 46 of Americans say human activity 46 of Americans say human activity contributes a great deal to climate contributes a great deal to climate contributes a great deal to climate change by the way this is a little bit change by the way this is a little bit change by the way this is a little bit different than what we're discussing I different than what we're discussing I different than what we're discussing I was uh just looking through different was uh just looking through different was uh just looking through different polls polls polls in the public there seems to still be in the public there seems to still be in the public there seems to still be uncertainty about the how much humans uncertainty about the how much humans uncertainty about the how much humans contribute to climate change contribute to climate change contribute to climate change more than more than more than scientifically it would only be 24 that

scientifically it would only be 24 that scientifically it would only be 24 that disagree with the U.N climate panel disagree with the U.N climate panel disagree with the U.N climate panel right three three quarters I would agree right three three quarters I would agree right three three quarters I would agree are you uncomfortable about the 29 I I are you uncomfortable about the 29 I I are you uncomfortable about the 29 I I know 29 is actually it's exactly right I know 29 is actually it's exactly right I know 29 is actually it's exactly right I mean okay well everyone doesn't say it's mean okay well everyone doesn't say it's mean okay well everyone doesn't say it's all well they say that could be the all well they say that could be the all well they say that could be the Border case but anyway this is Border case but anyway this is Border case but anyway this is interesting but to me across all these interesting but to me across all these interesting but to me across all these polls if you look Republican versus polls if you look Republican versus polls if you look Republican versus Democrat yeah Republican Democrat yeah Republican Democrat yeah Republican um it's say that 17 say it's a great um it's say that 17 say it's a great um it's say that 17 say it's a great deal Democrats say 71 say it's a it's a deal Democrats say 71 say it's a it's a deal Democrats say 71 say it's a it's a great deal and you just see this great deal and you just see this great deal and you just see this complete division complete division complete division I think you probably I think you probably I think you probably would call it pandemic would call it pandemic would call it pandemic uh you know you can ask a lot of uh you know you can ask a lot of uh you know you can ask a lot of questions like this do masks work are questions like this do masks work are questions like this do masks work are they an effective method to slow they an effective method to slow they an effective method to slow transmission of a pandemic you'll transmission of a pandemic you'll transmission of a pandemic you'll probably have the same kind of polls probably have the same kind of polls probably have the same kind of polls about Republicans and Democrats and um about Republicans and Democrats and um about Republicans and Democrats and um while the effectiveness of masks to me while the effectiveness of masks to me while the effectiveness of masks to me is a scientific question but is a scientific question but is a scientific question but um so there's different truths here um so there's different truths here um so there's different truths here apparently one is a scientific truth apparently one is a scientific truth apparently one is a scientific truth uh one is a truth uh one is a truth uh one is a truth held by the scientific Community which held by the scientific Community which held by the scientific Community which seems to be also different than the seems to be also different than the seems to be also different than the scientific truth sometimes uh and the scientific truth sometimes uh and the scientific truth sometimes uh and the other is the public perception that has other is the public perception that has other is the public perception that has that's uh polluted or affected by that's uh polluted or affected by that's uh polluted or affected by political affiliation and then there's political affiliation and then there's political affiliation and then there's uh whatever is the uh whatever is the uh whatever is the uh narrative that's communicated by the uh narrative that's communicated by the uh narrative that's communicated by the the media they will also have a question

the media they will also have a question the media they will also have a question the answer to the question of whether the answer to the question of whether the answer to the question of whether masks work or not and they will also masks work or not and they will also masks work or not and they will also have an answer to the question about all have an answer to the question about all have an answer to the question about all these climate related things so that's a these climate related things so that's a these climate related things so that's a long way of asking the question of what long way of asking the question of what long way of asking the question of what how is politics mixed into all of this how is politics mixed into all of this how is politics mixed into all of this yeah on the communication front on the yeah on the communication front on the yeah on the communication front on the figuring out what the right policy is figuring out what the right policy is figuring out what the right policy is front on the friction of humanity in the front on the friction of humanity in the front on the friction of humanity in the face of the right policies well I've face of the right policies well I've face of the right policies well I've written a ton on this after I had that written a ton on this after I had that written a ton on this after I had that conversion about the social science when conversion about the social science when conversion about the social science when 2006 I began digging in a lot more on 2006 I began digging in a lot more on 2006 I began digging in a lot more on how people hold beliefs and what they do how people hold beliefs and what they do how people hold beliefs and what they do as opposed to what they think and as opposed to what they think and as opposed to what they think and questions about polling and there's two questions about polling and there's two questions about polling and there's two things that come to me that make me not things that come to me that make me not things that come to me that make me not worry about the basic literacy like is worry about the basic literacy like is worry about the basic literacy like is is climate change X percent of whatever is climate change X percent of whatever is climate change X percent of whatever I don't really care about that and I'll I don't really care about that and I'll I don't really care about that and I'll explain why explain why explain why um for one thing um for one thing um for one thing more science literacy more basic more science literacy more basic more science literacy more basic literacy like what is a greenhouse gas literacy like what is a greenhouse gas literacy like what is a greenhouse gas all that stuff Dan cahane a k-a-h-a-n at all that stuff Dan cahane a k-a-h-a-n at all that stuff Dan cahane a k-a-h-a-n at Yale he's actually a law school Yale he's actually a law school Yale he's actually a law school the last decade he did all this work in the last decade he did all this work in the last decade he did all this work in what he calls cultural cognition what he calls cultural cognition what he calls cultural cognition which is and he did uh studies that which is and he did uh studies that which is and he did uh studies that showed showed showed you know how what you believe you know how what you believe you know how what you believe emerges based on culture based on your emerges based on culture based on your emerges based on culture based on your background you know your red blue background you know your red blue background you know your red blue your where you are in the country

your where you are in the country your where you are in the country and one of the one of the really and one of the one of the really and one of the one of the really disturbing findings was disturbing findings was disturbing findings was that the people who have the most basic that the people who have the most basic that the people who have the most basic science literacy like who know the most science literacy like who know the most science literacy like who know the most about about about greenhouse effect or whatever greenhouse effect or whatever greenhouse effect or whatever they're at both ends of the spectrum they're at both ends of the spectrum they're at both ends of the spectrum of views on climate dismissives and of views on climate dismissives and of views on climate dismissives and alarmed Steve coonan as I mentioned is a alarmed Steve coonan as I mentioned is a alarmed Steve coonan as I mentioned is a good example he's brilliant physicist good example he's brilliant physicist good example he's brilliant physicist and he knows every all the science and and he knows every all the science and and he knows every all the science and he's completely at the end of skepticism he's completely at the end of skepticism he's completely at the end of skepticism um will happer Who was um will happer Who was um will happer Who was close to being Trump's science advisor close to being Trump's science advisor close to being Trump's science advisor was even more out there and he's on was even more out there and he's on was even more out there and he's on they're both on the uh Jason committee they're both on the uh Jason committee they're both on the uh Jason committee that advises the government on big that advises the government on big that advises the government on big strategic things strategic things strategic things um and people at the who are really um and people at the who are really um and people at the who are really alarmed about it also have the same alarmed about it also have the same alarmed about it also have the same belief so as a journalist I was thinking belief so as a journalist I was thinking belief so as a journalist I was thinking do I just spend my time writing more do I just spend my time writing more do I just spend my time writing more explanatory explanatory explanatory stories that explain the science better stories that explain the science better stories that explain the science better no do I dig in on this work to no do I dig in on this work to no do I dig in on this work to understand what brings people together understand what brings people together understand what brings people together and then these same surveys the same and then these same surveys the same and then these same surveys the same science shows you science shows you science shows you if you don't make it about climate among if you don't make it about climate among if you don't make it about climate among other things this becomes other things this becomes other things this becomes you don't have to worry about this you don't have to worry about this you don't have to worry about this anymore if you could Google for Google anymore if you could Google for Google anymore if you could Google for Google for no red blue divide climate revkin for no red blue divide climate revkin for no red blue divide climate revkin you'll find a piece I did with some you'll find a piece I did with some you'll find a piece I did with some really good graphs essentially it shows really good graphs essentially it shows really good graphs essentially it shows that in America this is the Yale group that in America this is the Yale group that in America this is the Yale group again the uh their climate communication again the uh their climate communication again the uh their climate communication group there's no red blue divide on group there's no red blue divide on group there's no red blue divide on energy Innovation none we need more energy Innovation none we need more energy Innovation none we need more climate energy clean energy Innovation climate energy clean energy Innovation climate energy clean energy Innovation there wasn't even a divide there wasn't even a divide there wasn't even a divide country bias state by state on

country bias state by state on country bias state by state on whether CO2 should be regulated as a whether CO2 should be regulated as a whether CO2 should be regulated as a pollutant pollutant pollutant but it's all like what are the questions but it's all like what are the questions but it's all like what are the questions you ask if you ask about you ask if you ask about you ask if you ask about Innovation if you ask about more and Innovation if you ask about more and Innovation if you ask about more and more incentives for Renewable Power more incentives for Renewable Power more incentives for Renewable Power Oklahoma Iowa you know I did a piece Oklahoma Iowa you know I did a piece Oklahoma Iowa you know I did a piece when I was at propublica showing that when I was at propublica showing that when I was at propublica showing that the 17 states that were fighting Obama the 17 states that were fighting Obama the 17 states that were fighting Obama in court over his clean power plan in court over his clean power plan in court over his clean power plan we're actually the majority of them were we're actually the majority of them were we're actually the majority of them were actually meeting the targets that the actually meeting the targets that the actually meeting the targets that the clean power plan had clean power plan had clean power plan had because they're expanding wind power because they're expanding wind power because they're expanding wind power already not because of the climate already not because of the climate already not because of the climate because it makes money sense and energy because it makes money sense and energy because it makes money sense and energy sense so you don't think there's a sense so you don't think there's a sense so you don't think there's a political divide in this there is on political divide in this there is on political divide in this there is on climate if you call it climate if you climate if you call it climate if you climate if you call it climate if you say it's a climate do you believe in the say it's a climate do you believe in the say it's a climate do you believe in the climate crisis you're not asking climate crisis you're not asking climate crisis you're not asking what kind of energy future do you want what kind of energy future do you want what kind of energy future do you want in your town in your town in your town and so if you if you ask that question and so if you if you ask that question and so if you if you ask that question the polarization goes away the polarization goes away the polarization goes away well I guess I'm asking is there well I guess I'm asking is there well I guess I'm asking is there polarization on policy no well well polarization on policy no well well polarization on policy no well well there again there again there again the bipartisan infrastructure law that the bipartisan infrastructure law that the bipartisan infrastructure law that was passed last November that was was passed last November that was was passed last November that was bipartisan bipartisan bipartisan all of Congress said yes and that's a all of Congress said yes and that's a all of Congress said yes and that's a trillion dollars trillion dollars trillion dollars several hundred billion of which are for several hundred billion of which are for several hundred billion of which are for cleaner energy and resilience cleaner energy and resilience cleaner energy and resilience yeah but that's yeah but that's yeah but that's but it's not a climate Bill and it but it's not a climate Bill and it but it's not a climate Bill and it wasn't a tax wasn't a tax wasn't a tax it's it's a it's a it's a it's it's it's a it's a it's a it's it's it's a it's a it's a it's incentives so the word climate and

incentives so the word climate and incentives so the word climate and similar words are just used as part of similar words are just used as part of similar words are just used as part of the signaling like masks it's it's the signaling like masks it's it's the signaling like masks it's it's absolutely it's not as Dan cahane's work absolutely it's not as Dan cahane's work absolutely it's not as Dan cahane's work the guy at Yale um he really the guy at Yale um he really the guy at Yale um he really demonstrated powerfully abortion gun demonstrated powerfully abortion gun demonstrated powerfully abortion gun rights rights rights um climate in a more parse level nuclear um climate in a more parse level nuclear um climate in a more parse level nuclear power power power has enduring camps that for and against has enduring camps that for and against has enduring camps that for and against what what why do the camps form what what why do the camps form what what why do the camps form some of its cultural cognition it's how some of its cultural cognition it's how some of its cultural cognition it's how you grew up it's what you fear P there's you grew up it's what you fear P there's you grew up it's what you fear P there's no common human frame because like like no common human frame because like like no common human frame because like like folks like certain individuals like Al folks like certain individuals like Al folks like certain individuals like Al Gore Gore Gore ah like he would make a film he cares ah like he would make a film he cares ah like he would make a film he cares about this thing he's a Democrat about this thing he's a Democrat about this thing he's a Democrat therefore I hate this thing that therefore I hate this thing that therefore I hate this thing that therefore I don't like this thing yeah therefore I don't like this thing yeah therefore I don't like this thing yeah oh sure yeah you know when people get oh sure yeah you know when people get oh sure yeah you know when people get attached to an issue if that's what pops attached to an issue if that's what pops attached to an issue if that's what pops into your head into your head into your head when you hear climate then and it got when you hear climate then and it got when you hear climate then and it got politicized it became politicized it became politicized it became emblematic emblematic emblematic and and the you know the whole vaccine and and the you know the whole vaccine and and the you know the whole vaccine thing thing thing I mean I'm not American so I should stay I mean I'm not American so I should stay I mean I'm not American so I should stay a little bit out of this but I think uh a little bit out of this but I think uh a little bit out of this but I think uh it seems to me that a lot of the thing it seems to me that a lot of the thing it seems to me that a lot of the thing that people believe and talk about is that people believe and talk about is that people believe and talk about is really about what they worried that that really about what they worried that that really about what they worried that that will lead to in terms of policy down the will lead to in terms of policy down the will lead to in terms of policy down the line so a little bit like do masks work line so a little bit like do masks work line so a little bit like do masks work I'm I'm sort of imagining I don't know I'm I'm sort of imagining I don't know I'm I'm sort of imagining I don't know whether this is true but I think part of whether this is true but I think part of whether this is true but I think part of it is if I say masks work they're gonna it is if I say masks work they're gonna it is if I say masks work they're gonna force me to wear it for the next year so force me to wear it for the next year so force me to wear it for the next year so it doesn't work because then I don't it doesn't work because then I don't it doesn't work because then I don't have to wear it kind of thing that it's have to wear it kind of thing that it's have to wear it kind of thing that it's really uh uh you're you're looking much

really uh uh you're you're looking much really uh uh you're you're looking much further down the line and certainly on further down the line and certainly on further down the line and certainly on climate it seems to me that a lot of the climate it seems to me that a lot of the climate it seems to me that a lot of the people who say it's not real it's not people who say it's not real it's not people who say it's not real it's not because they don't know it's of course because they don't know it's of course because they don't know it's of course it's real but it's that they don't want it's real but it's that they don't want it's real but it's that they don't want you to then come and regulate it heavily you to then come and regulate it heavily you to then come and regulate it heavily yeah uh so it's because they don't like yeah uh so it's because they don't like yeah uh so it's because they don't like top-down government yeah and also top-down government yeah and also top-down government yeah and also because they don't want another tax and because they don't want another tax and because they don't want another tax and you know there's lots of of so it's it's you know there's lots of of so it's it's you know there's lots of of so it's it's really it's not a science it's not a really it's not a science it's not a really it's not a science it's not a straight science question it really is a straight science question it really is a straight science question it really is a question what do you want to do and question what do you want to do and question what do you want to do and that's where I think Andy you're much that's where I think Andy you're much that's where I think Andy you're much much more right in saying we should you much more right in saying we should you much more right in saying we should you know have that discussion so what do you know have that discussion so what do you know have that discussion so what do you want to do because that will be a much want to do because that will be a much want to do because that will be a much easier conversation to say do you want easier conversation to say do you want easier conversation to say do you want to do really smart cheap stuff or do you to do really smart cheap stuff or do you to do really smart cheap stuff or do you want to do pretty dumb expensive stuff want to do pretty dumb expensive stuff want to do pretty dumb expensive stuff when you put it that way you you can get when you put it that way you you can get when you put it that way you you can get most people of course it's not as simple most people of course it's not as simple most people of course it's not as simple as that I know and it gets back to what as that I know and it gets back to what as that I know and it gets back to what you said earlier that again you talked you said earlier that again you talked you said earlier that again you talked about collaborative cooperation or about collaborative cooperation or about collaborative cooperation or whatever whatever whatever there's a guy at Columbia Peter Coleman there's a guy at Columbia Peter Coleman there's a guy at Columbia Peter Coleman who runs this thing called the difficult who runs this thing called the difficult who runs this thing called the difficult conversations Laboratory conversations Laboratory conversations Laboratory yeah yeah that's awesome and when I yeah yeah that's awesome and when I yeah yeah that's awesome and when I first heard about it I was like oh man first heard about it I was like oh man first heard about it I was like oh man we need that you know and uh his we need that you know and uh his we need that you know and uh his background's the psychology and uh background's the psychology and uh background's the psychology and uh conflict resolution mostly at the global conflict resolution mostly at the global conflict resolution mostly at the global scale related to scale related to scale related to atrocities the countries are trying to atrocities the countries are trying to atrocities the countries are trying to get over and get over and get over and um and there's there's a science to how um and there's there's a science to how um and there's there's a science to how to hold a better conversation is you to hold a better conversation is you to hold a better conversation is you either through experience or whatever no either through experience or whatever no either through experience or whatever no um you could if you hold a debate like I um you could if you hold a debate like I um you could if you hold a debate like I wouldn't want to be in a debate with wouldn't want to be in a debate with wouldn't want to be in a debate with Bjorn we could find lots of things we

Bjorn we could find lots of things we Bjorn we could find lots of things we disagree on but that's that takes it disagree on but that's that takes it disagree on but that's that takes it back to the win-lose model right who back to the win-lose model right who back to the win-lose model right who want that's not how you make progress want that's not how you make progress want that's not how you make progress and what Peter and what Peter and what Peter when I what I learned absorbed from him when I what I learned absorbed from him when I what I learned absorbed from him Peter Coleman Peter Coleman Peter Coleman because I was thinking like we need room because I was thinking like we need room because I was thinking like we need room for agreement I need to build a room for for agreement I need to build a room for for agreement I need to build a room for agreement my blog and at the times and agreement my blog and at the times and agreement my blog and at the times and then the stuff I do now you know it's then the stuff I do now you know it's then the stuff I do now you know it's like how can we talk like how can we talk like how can we talk and come to agreement he says no no you and come to agreement he says no no you and come to agreement he says no no you don't want agreement you want don't want agreement you want don't want agreement you want cooperation cooperation cooperation that allows you to hold on to your that allows you to hold on to your that allows you to hold on to your beliefs beliefs beliefs but to we're good you know we can but to we're good you know we can but to we're good you know we can disbelieve it we can disagree on all disbelieve it we can disagree on all disbelieve it we can disagree on all these things but let's cooperate on that these things but let's cooperate on that these things but let's cooperate on that one thing one thing one thing and that's that's a really valuable and that's that's a really valuable and that's that's a really valuable distinction that's needed so much in distinction that's needed so much in distinction that's needed so much in this Arena because this Arena because this Arena because as I said earlier you can parse it right as I said earlier you can parse it right as I said earlier you can parse it right down to down to down to the home menu of things Joe manchin the home menu of things Joe manchin the home menu of things Joe manchin wanted you know transmission lines wanted you know transmission lines wanted you know transmission lines you're now we're going to have big you're now we're going to have big you're now we're going to have big fights over transmission lines we've got fights over transmission lines we've got fights over transmission lines we've got billions of dollars to spend expanding billions of dollars to spend expanding billions of dollars to spend expanding America's grid America's grid America's grid in every community in America is going in every community in America is going in every community in America is going to say not here so how do you to say not here so how do you to say not here so how do you Foster a federal local dialogue that Foster a federal local dialogue that Foster a federal local dialogue that allows that to happen if you want to allows that to happen if you want to allows that to happen if you want to have any hope of a better grid have any hope of a better grid have any hope of a better grid um so that's like um so that's like um so that's like that those insights come from behavioral that those insights come from behavioral that those insights come from behavioral sciences that I think are completely sciences that I think are completely sciences that I think are completely under under under valued um in this area Pilkey loves to valued um in this area Pilkey loves to valued um in this area Pilkey loves to quote uh I can't I think it's liberate quote uh I can't I think it's liberate quote uh I can't I think it's liberate but oh Walter Lipman Lipman yes that uh but oh Walter Lipman Lipman yes that uh but oh Walter Lipman Lipman yes that uh democracy is not about you know democracy is not about you know democracy is not about you know everybody agreeing but it's about everybody agreeing but it's about everybody agreeing but it's about different people disagreeing but doing

different people disagreeing but doing different people disagreeing but doing the same thing yeah together yes I mean the same thing yeah together yes I mean the same thing yeah together yes I mean agreeing that we're going to do this agreeing that we're going to do this agreeing that we're going to do this thing so you can disagree but still do a thing so you can disagree but still do a thing so you can disagree but still do a thing you know possibly for very thing you know possibly for very thing you know possibly for very different you know reasons there's an different you know reasons there's an different you know reasons there's an amazing video clip that shows this so amazing video clip that shows this so amazing video clip that shows this so powerfully powerfully powerfully 2015 was the build up to the Paris talks 2015 was the build up to the Paris talks 2015 was the build up to the Paris talks that led to the Paris agreement you know that led to the Paris agreement you know that led to the Paris agreement you know this this this and a really talented journalist at CNN and a really talented journalist at CNN and a really talented journalist at CNN at the time John Sutter who's from at the time John Sutter who's from at the time John Sutter who's from Oklahoma originally he um Oklahoma originally he um Oklahoma originally he um he saw another Yale study that was a he saw another Yale study that was a he saw another Yale study that was a county by county study of American county by county study of American county by county study of American attitudes on global warming like right attitudes on global warming like right attitudes on global warming like right down to the county level and there's down to the county level and there's down to the county level and there's this little glowing this little glowing this little glowing data point in Woodward County West uh data point in Woodward County West uh data point in Woodward County West uh Oklahoma Woodward County Oklahoma was Oklahoma Woodward County Oklahoma was Oklahoma Woodward County Oklahoma was Ground Zero for climate skepticism Ground Zero for climate skepticism Ground Zero for climate skepticism climate denial what everyone call it and climate denial what everyone call it and climate denial what everyone call it and he's like oh I'm going to go there and he's like oh I'm going to go there and he's like oh I'm going to go there and he went there just as a just to meet he went there just as a just to meet he went there just as a just to meet people on the street to talk to them people on the street to talk to them people on the street to talk to them about energy and weather and about energy and weather and about energy and weather and he did these little interviews and he did these little interviews and he did these little interviews and there's this one with this guy who's there's this one with this guy who's there's this one with this guy who's like a middle-aged Oil Company employee like a middle-aged Oil Company employee like a middle-aged Oil Company employee like a business like a administrator like a business like a administrator like a business like a administrator Thai Thai kind of guy Thai Thai kind of guy Thai Thai kind of guy and he he starts out the interview and and he he starts out the interview and and he he starts out the interview and the guy is saying like well you know God the guy is saying like well you know God the guy is saying like well you know God controls the environment controls the environment controls the environment and if you're watching this you're going and if you're watching this you're going and if you're watching this you're going okay this is going to be interesting okay this is going to be interesting okay this is going to be interesting and the backstory by the way is the guy and the backstory by the way is the guy and the backstory by the way is the guy he he paid for the local uh playground he he paid for the local uh playground he he paid for the local uh playground to have dinosaurs and people like toy to have dinosaurs and people like toy to have dinosaurs and people like toy dinosaurs and people all the playground dinosaurs and people all the playground dinosaurs and people all the playground Because he believes in creation you know

Because he believes in creation you know Because he believes in creation you know six thousand a year creation yeah so so six thousand a year creation yeah so so six thousand a year creation yeah so so that's the guy right and and then he that's the guy right and and then he that's the guy right and and then he gets to energy and the guy says you know gets to energy and the guy says you know gets to energy and the guy says you know the same guy who believes God controls the same guy who believes God controls the same guy who believes God controls the environment the environment the environment says you know we have half of our roof says you know we have half of our roof says you know we have half of our roof covered with solar panels and we want to covered with solar panels and we want to covered with solar panels and we want to get off the grid entirely get off the grid entirely get off the grid entirely and when I show this I show this to and when I show this I show this to and when I show this I show this to audiences I say just pause and think audiences I say just pause and think audiences I say just pause and think about that for a second about that for a second about that for a second if you went why do you think that's if you went why do you think that's if you went why do you think that's happening and it's because he's happening and it's because he's happening and it's because he's independent he wants to have his own independent he wants to have his own independent he wants to have his own source of power he's libertarian he just source of power he's libertarian he just source of power he's libertarian he just want the government telling what to do want the government telling what to do want the government telling what to do he would never vote for Hillary I he would never vote for Hillary I he would never vote for Hillary I guarantee you this is 2015. guarantee you this is 2015. guarantee you this is 2015. but he wanted to get off the grid but he wanted to get off the grid but he wanted to get off the grid entirely to be his own entirely to be his own entirely to be his own to be to be himself and so then I say to be to be himself and so then I say to be to be himself and so then I say okay so if you were going around the okay so if you were going around the okay so if you were going around the country with your climate crisis placard country with your climate crisis placard country with your climate crisis placard and you go to Woodward County and you go to Woodward County and you go to Woodward County do you think that would be a productive do you think that would be a productive do you think that would be a productive way to go to that place and make your way to go to that place and make your way to go to that place and make your case case case and the answer is pretty obvious no if and the answer is pretty obvious no if and the answer is pretty obvious no if you go in there and you listen like you go in there and you listen like you go in there and you listen like listening is such an important property listening is such an important property listening is such an important property that we all forget including journalists that we all forget including journalists that we all forget including journalists um you much more have to find a path to um you much more have to find a path to um you much more have to find a path to cooperation cooperation cooperation you could talk to him about you could talk to him about you could talk to him about I guarantee if I went there today maybe I guarantee if I went there today maybe I guarantee if I went there today maybe I should go to talk about this new bill I should go to talk about this new bill I should go to talk about this new bill 370 billion dollars how do we make that 370 billion dollars how do we make that 370 billion dollars how do we make that work you know at the local level work you know at the local level work you know at the local level how do we answer that guy at the energy how do we answer that guy at the energy how do we answer that guy at the energy Department Jigger Shaw so how do we put Department Jigger Shaw so how do we put Department Jigger Shaw so how do we put this to work to get our buses off this to work to get our buses off this to work to get our buses off electricity to get electrified or electricity to get electrified or electricity to get electrified or transition our street lamps and stuff transition our street lamps and stuff transition our street lamps and stuff you could have a good chat with him if you could have a good chat with him if you could have a good chat with him if you go in there say I'm here to debate

you go in there say I'm here to debate you go in there say I'm here to debate you to death on global warming you to death on global warming you to death on global warming forget about it forget about it forget about it actually let me ask you a question given actually let me ask you a question given actually let me ask you a question given your roots as a journalist yeah your roots as a journalist yeah your roots as a journalist yeah um so yeah talking to a guy you disagree um so yeah talking to a guy you disagree um so yeah talking to a guy you disagree with that's one thing with that's one thing with that's one thing what about talking to people what about talking to people what about talking to people that might be Society might consider that might be Society might consider that might be Society might consider bad unethical even evil bad unethical even evil bad unethical even evil what's the role of a journalist in that what's the role of a journalist in that what's the role of a journalist in that context context context so climate change is a large number of so climate change is a large number of so climate change is a large number of people that believe one thing yeah that people that believe one thing yeah that people that believe one thing yeah that believe another thing believe another thing believe another thing uh it turns out even with people that uh it turns out even with people that uh it turns out even with people that Society deems as evil there's a large Society deems as evil there's a large Society deems as evil there's a large number of people that support them number of people that support them number of people that support them what's your role as a journalist what's your role as a journalist what's your role as a journalist to talk to them well when I I have to talk to them well when I I have to talk to them well when I I have talked to really bad people when I wrote talked to really bad people when I wrote talked to really bad people when I wrote about the murder of Chico Mendez a about the murder of Chico Mendez a about the murder of Chico Mendez a Brazilian Brazilian Brazilian Amazon rainforest activist in 1989 I Amazon rainforest activist in 1989 I Amazon rainforest activist in 1989 I interviewed The Killers interviewed The Killers interviewed The Killers um one was in jail several of them were um one was in jail several of them were um one was in jail several of them were just ranchers who just ranchers who just ranchers who you know they had their point of view you know they had their point of view you know they had their point of view they were there in the Amazon rainforest they were there in the Amazon rainforest they were there in the Amazon rainforest to to to the word in Brazil in Portuguese is the word in Brazil in Portuguese is the word in Brazil in Portuguese is limpar to clean the land you know limpar to clean the land you know limpar to clean the land you know they're the bandarantes the pioneers of they're the bandarantes the pioneers of they're the bandarantes the pioneers of Brazil they go into these Frontiers and Brazil they go into these Frontiers and Brazil they go into these Frontiers and tame them like we had in our West you tame them like we had in our West you tame them like we had in our West you know and they would bring that up too know and they would bring that up too know and they would bring that up too they would say to me well you did this they would say to me well you did this they would say to me well you did this out you know didn't say you murdered

out you know didn't say you murdered out you know didn't say you murdered your your Native Americans and stuff but your your Native Americans and stuff but your your Native Americans and stuff but they could easily have said that to and they could easily have said that to and they could easily have said that to and you deforested all your Landscapes um so you deforested all your Landscapes um so you deforested all your Landscapes um so who are you to come down here to but if who are you to come down here to but if who are you to come down here to but if I didn't talk to them uh that would be I didn't talk to them uh that would be I didn't talk to them uh that would be not a way to do journalism but when you not a way to do journalism but when you not a way to do journalism but when you talk to them did you empathize with them talk to them did you empathize with them talk to them did you empathize with them or did you push back or did you push back or did you push back that's the ultimate question like if you that's the ultimate question like if you that's the ultimate question like if you want to understand like uh if you talk to Hitler in 1941 like uh if you talk to Hitler in 1941 you empathize with him or do you push you empathize with him or do you push you empathize with him or do you push back back back because most journalists would push because most journalists would push because most journalists would push because they're trying to signal to a because they're trying to signal to a because they're trying to signal to a fellow journalist right and to people fellow journalist right and to people fellow journalist right and to people back home that this me the journalist is back home that this me the journalist is back home that this me the journalist is on the right side on the right side on the right side but if you actually want to understand but if you actually want to understand but if you actually want to understand the person you should empathize the person you should empathize the person you should empathize uh if you want to if you want to be the uh if you want to if you want to be the uh if you want to if you want to be the kind of person that actually understands kind of person that actually understands kind of person that actually understands in the full in the full in the full Arc of History Arc of History Arc of History you need to empathize I find that you need to empathize I find that you need to empathize I find that journalists a lot of times perhaps journalists a lot of times perhaps journalists a lot of times perhaps they're protecting their job their they're protecting their job their they're protecting their job their reputation their sanity are not willing reputation their sanity are not willing reputation their sanity are not willing to empathize yeah well I think this to empathize yeah well I think this to empathize yeah well I think this happened with Joe manchin I'm not doing happened with Joe manchin I'm not doing happened with Joe manchin I'm not doing any kind of equation here related to any kind of equation here related to any kind of equation here related to history yes yes or Trump I mean Trump I history yes yes or Trump I mean Trump I history yes yes or Trump I mean Trump I interviewed the guy will happer I interviewed the guy will happer I interviewed the guy will happer I mentioned who was a physicist at mentioned who was a physicist at mentioned who was a physicist at Princeton who thinks carbon dioxide is Princeton who thinks carbon dioxide is Princeton who thinks carbon dioxide is the greatest thing in the world and we the greatest thing in the world and we the greatest thing in the world and we should have more of it in the atmosphere should have more of it in the atmosphere should have more of it in the atmosphere I profoundly disagree on that point I profoundly disagree on that point I profoundly disagree on that point um but I interviewed him for an hour and

um but I interviewed him for an hour and um but I interviewed him for an hour and and it was so interesting because he was and it was so interesting because he was and it was so interesting because he was trying to kind of rope-a-dope me trying to kind of rope-a-dope me trying to kind of rope-a-dope me into into into making it about CO2 and climate because making it about CO2 and climate because making it about CO2 and climate because he's a super smart physicist he's a super smart physicist he's a super smart physicist and I kind of said let's let's talk and I kind of said let's let's talk and I kind of said let's let's talk about some other things and we started about some other things and we started about some other things and we started talking about education and Science talking about education and Science talking about education and Science Education he went on for like 20 minutes Education he went on for like 20 minutes Education he went on for like 20 minutes about the vital importance of better about the vital importance of better about the vital importance of better Science Education for Americans he drew Science Education for Americans he drew Science Education for Americans he drew on people he knew from Europe Hungary a on people he knew from Europe Hungary a on people he knew from Europe Hungary a bunch of Nobel Prize winners came from bunch of Nobel Prize winners came from bunch of Nobel Prize winners came from some some town in Hungary for at least a some some town in Hungary for at least a some some town in Hungary for at least a couple and he said that he learned their couple and he said that he learned their couple and he said that he learned their teachers at any rate we he went in a teachers at any rate we he went in a teachers at any rate we he went in a long Exposition on that he he then long Exposition on that he he then long Exposition on that he he then defended climate science he said we need defended climate science he said we need defended climate science he said we need more climate science he says I love this more climate science he says I love this more climate science he says I love this stuff I love the ocean buoys there are stuff I love the ocean buoys there are stuff I love the ocean buoys there are now thousands of them in the oceans now thousands of them in the oceans now thousands of them in the oceans charting clear pictures of ocean charting clear pictures of ocean charting clear pictures of ocean circulation and satellites and he said circulation and satellites and he said circulation and satellites and he said something really important that many something really important that many something really important that many people discount which is we need people discount which is we need people discount which is we need sustained investment in monitoring this sustained investment in monitoring this sustained investment in monitoring this planet planet planet uh we let our system we neglect our uh we let our system we neglect our uh we let our system we neglect our systems that just tell us what's systems that just tell us what's systems that just tell us what's happening in the world and that's happening in the world and that's happening in the world and that's happened over and over again happened over and over again happened over and over again um so if I had left it if I'd gone into um so if I had left it if I'd gone into um so if I had left it if I'd gone into the terrain of the fight over CO2 the terrain of the fight over CO2 the terrain of the fight over CO2 some journalist friends might say oh some journalist friends might say oh some journalist friends might say oh that was good mashup you know match up that was good mashup you know match up that was good mashup you know match up and but I found these really profound and but I found these really profound and but I found these really profound and important things that I wanted the and important things that I wanted the and important things that I wanted the world to know about world to know about world to know about in the context of whether Trump was in the context of whether Trump was in the context of whether Trump was going to have him as a science advisor going to have him as a science advisor going to have him as a science advisor and so if I hadn't gone there and a lot

and so if I hadn't gone there and a lot and so if I hadn't gone there and a lot of people if you look back I got of people if you look back I got of people if you look back I got hammered for doing that from even from hammered for doing that from even from hammered for doing that from even from Friends Friends Friends and then later John holdren who had been and then later John holdren who had been and then later John holdren who had been Obama's science advisor for eight years Obama's science advisor for eight years Obama's science advisor for eight years he said I would rather have he said I would rather have he said I would rather have will happer as Trump's science advisor will happer as Trump's science advisor will happer as Trump's science advisor the no science advisor in other words the no science advisor in other words the no science advisor in other words there's a landscape of things that are there's a landscape of things that are there's a landscape of things that are important he recognized that happer is important he recognized that happer is important he recognized that happer is really smart about defense and all kinds really smart about defense and all kinds really smart about defense and all kinds of things too so it's like you do have of things too so it's like you do have of things too so it's like you do have to sort of screw up your ideally screw to sort of screw up your ideally screw to sort of screw up your ideally screw up your courage but then not necessarily up your courage but then not necessarily up your courage but then not necessarily get into the get into the get into the it's like with the guy in Oklahoma you it's like with the guy in Oklahoma you it's like with the guy in Oklahoma you know know know if you go in looking for the differences if you go in looking for the differences if you go in looking for the differences you'll find them you can amplify them you'll find them you can amplify them you'll find them you can amplify them you can leave you can leave you can leave with us with us with us paralyzed sense of paralyzed sense of paralyzed sense of nothing having happened that was useful nothing having happened that was useful nothing having happened that was useful or you can find these nuggets that are or you can find these nuggets that are or you can find these nuggets that are everyone is a human being I can't play everyone is a human being I can't play everyone is a human being I can't play the mind game of what I would have said the mind game of what I would have said the mind game of what I would have said asked to Hitler asked to Hitler asked to Hitler but um but um but um I played that mind game all the time but I played that mind game all the time but I played that mind game all the time but that's that's for another conversation that's that's for another conversation that's that's for another conversation yeah yeah that many in my family yeah yeah that many in my family yeah yeah that many in my family um that have suffered on them um that have suffered on them um that have suffered on them nevertheless he is a human being nevertheless he is a human being nevertheless he is a human being yeah and I you know people sometimes yeah and I you know people sometimes yeah and I you know people sometimes caricature Hitler is saying like that caricature Hitler is saying like that caricature Hitler is saying like that that's when you mentioned Hitler the that's when you mentioned Hitler the that's when you mentioned Hitler the conversation all right conversation all right conversation all right but I don't agree I think sort of these but I don't agree I think sort of these but I don't agree I think sort of these extremes are useful thought experiments extremes are useful thought experiments extremes are useful thought experiments to understand because if you're not to understand because if you're not to understand because if you're not willing to take your ideals to that

willing to take your ideals to that willing to take your ideals to that extreme then then maybe your ideals need extreme then then maybe your ideals need extreme then then maybe your ideals need some rethinking and from a journalistic some rethinking and from a journalistic some rethinking and from a journalistic perspective all that kind of stuff a perspective all that kind of stuff a perspective all that kind of stuff a number of years ago my wife and I were number of years ago my wife and I were number of years ago my wife and I were with our veterinarian who was with our veterinarian who was with our veterinarian who was german-born german-born german-born Dr Bach b-a-c-h we were talking about Dr Bach b-a-c-h we were talking about Dr Bach b-a-c-h we were talking about the dog and stuff and then we were the dog and stuff and then we were the dog and stuff and then we were talking about Trump and talking about Trump and talking about Trump and and he just mentioned in passing he said and he just mentioned in passing he said and he just mentioned in passing he said my mother voted for Hitler my mother voted for Hitler my mother voted for Hitler wow that hit me like a brick yeah wow that hit me like a brick yeah wow that hit me like a brick yeah because it was so yeah these at the very because it was so yeah these at the very because it was so yeah these at the very least understanding how least understanding how least understanding how Pathways that lead to Pathways that lead to Pathways that lead to people doing things like he did and people doing things like he did and people doing things like he did and ordered it's essential and the only way ordered it's essential and the only way ordered it's essential and the only way to understand that is to to understand that is to to understand that is to dig in and ask questions and get dig in and ask questions and get dig in and ask questions and get uncomfortable that still makes my hair uncomfortable that still makes my hair uncomfortable that still makes my hair prickle when I think back to him saying prickle when I think back to him saying prickle when I think back to him saying yeah my mom voted for Hitler I somehow yeah my mom voted for Hitler I somehow yeah my mom voted for Hitler I somehow makes it super real like oh yeah yeah makes it super real like oh yeah yeah makes it super real like oh yeah yeah wow yeah there's elections There's real wow yeah there's elections There's real wow yeah there's elections There's real people living their lives and exactly people living their lives and exactly people living their lives and exactly struggling with a broken economy and all struggling with a broken economy and all struggling with a broken economy and all kinds of having their own Littles kinds of having their own Littles kinds of having their own Littles personal resentments and all that kind personal resentments and all that kind personal resentments and all that kind of stuff let me ask you about presidents of stuff let me ask you about presidents of stuff let me ask you about presidents American presidents um what who had a positive or negative um what who had a positive or negative impact on climate change efforts in your impact on climate change efforts in your impact on climate change efforts in your view Clinton Bush Obama Trump Biden or view Clinton Bush Obama Trump Biden or view Clinton Bush Obama Trump Biden or maybe you could say that they don't have maybe you could say that they don't have maybe you could say that they don't have much of an impact so like they in public much of an impact so like they in public much of an impact so like they in public discourse presidents have a kind of um discourse presidents have a kind of um discourse presidents have a kind of um maybe disproportional like we imagine

maybe disproportional like we imagine maybe disproportional like we imagine they have a huge amount of impact how they have a huge amount of impact how they have a huge amount of impact how much impact do they actually have on on much impact do they actually have on on much impact do they actually have on on on climate policy on climate policy on climate policy very I don't know if you have comments very I don't know if you have comments very I don't know if you have comments on this well the there is a background on this well the there is a background on this well the there is a background decarbonization rate that's happened for decarbonization rate that's happened for decarbonization rate that's happened for 150 years you know we moved from wood to 150 years you know we moved from wood to 150 years you know we moved from wood to uh charcoal to Coal to oil and gas is uh charcoal to Coal to oil and gas is uh charcoal to Coal to oil and gas is cleaner it's more hydrogen less carbon cleaner it's more hydrogen less carbon cleaner it's more hydrogen less carbon and and and when you I asked recently I asked some when you I asked recently I asked some when you I asked recently I asked some really smart scientists who studied really smart scientists who studied really smart scientists who studied these long trajectories of energy these long trajectories of energy these long trajectories of energy when you look at those curves is there when you look at those curves is there when you look at those curves is there anything in that curve that says oh anything in that curve that says oh anything in that curve that says oh climate treaty 1992. oh yeah oh Paris climate treaty 1992. oh yeah oh Paris climate treaty 1992. oh yeah oh Paris and it's really hard or China I mean and it's really hard or China I mean and it's really hard or China I mean when China came in when China came in when China came in with his huge growth and Emissions that with his huge growth and Emissions that with his huge growth and Emissions that that created a that created a that created a bit of a recarbonization blip but that bit of a recarbonization blip but that bit of a recarbonization blip but that was this huge growth in their economy was this huge growth in their economy was this huge growth in their economy they pulled a bunch of people out of out they pulled a bunch of people out of out they pulled a bunch of people out of out of poverty of poverty of poverty um so yeah no presidents don't really um so yeah no presidents don't really um so yeah no presidents don't really change anything on time scales that we change anything on time scales that we change anything on time scales that we would measure as meaning where you could would measure as meaning where you could would measure as meaning where you could parse it out I I think that's not to say parse it out I I think that's not to say parse it out I I think that's not to say that that that Obama's and the current focus on on the Obama's and the current focus on on the Obama's and the current focus on on the stimulus that's happening stimulus that's happening stimulus that's happening which includes a lot more money for which includes a lot more money for which includes a lot more money for research research research Etc and innovation Etc and innovation Etc and innovation I do think that will have to be I do think that will have to be I do think that will have to be beneficial in a very very long run but I beneficial in a very very long run but I beneficial in a very very long run but I have to say have to say have to say you know when Obama stood up and you know when Obama stood up and you know when Obama stood up and made credit you know took credit for made credit you know took credit for made credit you know took credit for reductions from moving from coal to gas reductions from moving from coal to gas reductions from moving from coal to gas because of fracking

because of fracking because of fracking that was actually Cheney who said that that was actually Cheney who said that that was actually Cheney who said that emotional thing I was thinking I would emotional thing I was thinking I would emotional thing I was thinking I would say Bush not because I like him or say Bush not because I like him or say Bush not because I like him or anything but he's the guy who anything but he's the guy who anything but he's the guy who inadvertently started fracking right and inadvertently started fracking right and inadvertently started fracking right and it goes further back than that it was a it goes further back than that it was a it goes further back than that it was a federal investment in fracking in the federal investment in fracking in the federal investment in fracking in the 60s and 70s and then this one guy in 60s and 70s and then this one guy in 60s and 70s and then this one guy in Texas right here in Texas uh George Texas right here in Texas uh George Texas right here in Texas uh George Mitchell who you know cobbled together Mitchell who you know cobbled together Mitchell who you know cobbled together technology technology technology and that led to this real dramatic and that led to this real dramatic and that led to this real dramatic change from gas to Coal that mostly change from gas to Coal that mostly change from gas to Coal that mostly played out in the Obama years but that played out in the Obama years but that played out in the Obama years but that really was stimulated by Cheney's early really was stimulated by Cheney's early really was stimulated by Cheney's early energy task force the 2001 when they energy task force the 2001 when they energy task force the 2001 when they were getting into office and also bush were getting into office and also bush were getting into office and also bush bush did something interesting bush did something interesting bush did something interesting in the whole wonky climate treaty in the whole wonky climate treaty in the whole wonky climate treaty process process process it was under Bush that they started to it was under Bush that they started to it was under Bush that they started to focus on sectors focus on sectors focus on sectors let's do a they did a oh and also on big let's do a they did a oh and also on big let's do a they did a oh and also on big emitters let's this isn't about 200 emitters let's this isn't about 200 emitters let's this isn't about 200 countries countries countries it's about basically eight or ten it's about basically eight or ten it's about basically eight or ten countries let's get them into a room and countries let's get them into a room and countries let's get them into a room and let's have these little sub rooms on let's have these little sub rooms on let's have these little sub rooms on like electrification on mining on like electrification on mining on like electrification on mining on whatever and by parsing it out whatever and by parsing it out whatever and by parsing it out and Obama picked up the same model they and Obama picked up the same model they and Obama picked up the same model they had different names for it because had different names for it because had different names for it because presidents always named something presidents always named something presidents always named something different than the last president when different than the last president when different than the last president when was the major economies forum and then was the major economies forum and then was the major economies forum and then it was the major emitters something or it was the major emitters something or it was the major emitters something or other other other and that getting away from the treaty and that getting away from the treaty and that getting away from the treaty dots and dashes toward just sectoral dots and dashes toward just sectoral dots and dashes toward just sectoral big sectors that matter you know gas big sectors that matter you know gas big sectors that matter you know gas electrification electrification electrification makes a difference but but again you

makes a difference but but again you makes a difference but but again you couldn't ever measure enough it's always couldn't ever measure enough it's always couldn't ever measure enough it's always the lag time and also I I think one very the lag time and also I I think one very the lag time and also I I think one very under reported fact the uh uh so the under reported fact the uh uh so the under reported fact the uh uh so the unep the environment program uh they unep the environment program uh they unep the environment program uh they come out with a what they call a gap come out with a what they call a gap come out with a what they call a gap report every year uh where they estimate report every year uh where they estimate report every year uh where they estimate how much is the world doing compared to how much is the world doing compared to how much is the world doing compared to what should it or has it promised to do what should it or has it promised to do what should it or has it promised to do emissions um yeah and uh in 2019 so just emissions um yeah and uh in 2019 so just emissions um yeah and uh in 2019 so just before covet hit they actually did a before covet hit they actually did a before covet hit they actually did a survey of the 2010s so the last big sort survey of the 2010s so the last big sort survey of the 2010s so the last big sort of report on how well are we doing and of report on how well are we doing and of report on how well are we doing and their takeaway quote and I'm not going their takeaway quote and I'm not going their takeaway quote and I'm not going to get this right but it's pretty much to get this right but it's pretty much to get this right but it's pretty much what they said was what they said was what they said was if you take the world as if we hadn't if you take the world as if we hadn't if you take the world as if we hadn't cared about climate change since 2005. cared about climate change since 2005. cared about climate change since 2005. we can't tell the difference between we can't tell the difference between we can't tell the difference between that world that world that world and the world that we're actually living and the world that we're actually living and the world that we're actually living in in in so despite the fact that we've had 10 so despite the fact that we've had 10 so despite the fact that we've had 10 years of you know immense focus on years of you know immense focus on years of you know immense focus on climate and everybody talks about it and climate and everybody talks about it and climate and everybody talks about it and the Paris agreement which is perhaps the the Paris agreement which is perhaps the the Paris agreement which is perhaps the biggest Global sort of agreement and biggest Global sort of agreement and biggest Global sort of agreement and what we're going to be doing you can't what we're going to be doing you can't what we're going to be doing you can't actually tell actually tell actually tell and that I think is incredibly important and that I think is incredibly important and that I think is incredibly important because what it tells you is all that because what it tells you is all that because what it tells you is all that we're doing is not even on the margin we're doing is not even on the margin we're doing is not even on the margin it's sort of smaller than that and I'm it's sort of smaller than that and I'm it's sort of smaller than that and I'm not sure what that is but you know we're not sure what that is but you know we're not sure what that is but you know we're basically dealing in you know so for basically dealing in you know so for basically dealing in you know so for instance the UK loves to point out that instance the UK loves to point out that instance the UK loves to point out that they have dramatically reduced their they have dramatically reduced their they have dramatically reduced their carbon emissions and they have they've carbon emissions and they have they've carbon emissions and they have they've really dramatically lowered their really dramatically lowered their really dramatically lowered their emissions but mostly because they've

emissions but mostly because they've emissions but mostly because they've de-industrialized they've basically said de-industrialized they've basically said de-industrialized they've basically said look we're just going to be Bankers for look we're just going to be Bankers for look we're just going to be Bankers for all of you guys and then everybody else all of you guys and then everybody else all of you guys and then everybody else is going to produce our stuff which of is going to produce our stuff which of is going to produce our stuff which of course is great for Britain or I don't course is great for Britain or I don't course is great for Britain or I don't know if it's great for Britain but we know if it's great for Britain but we know if it's great for Britain but we can't all do that and and so most of can't all do that and and so most of can't all do that and and so most of what we're trying to do right now is is what we're trying to do right now is is what we're trying to do right now is is sort of you know this virtue signaling sort of you know this virtue signaling sort of you know this virtue signaling it makes us feel good it's sort of yeah it makes us feel good it's sort of yeah it makes us feel good it's sort of yeah on the margin or in the very tiny margin on the margin or in the very tiny margin on the margin or in the very tiny margin but you know what we basically in those but you know what we basically in those but you know what we basically in those those Andy your point with China those Andy your point with China those Andy your point with China and the reason why we can't tell the and the reason why we can't tell the and the reason why we can't tell the difference of course is because China difference of course is because China difference of course is because China basically became the workshop for basically became the workshop for basically became the workshop for everyone yeah and and so not only did everyone yeah and and so not only did everyone yeah and and so not only did they lift more than half a million they lift more than half a million they lift more than half a million people out of poverty sorry yes half a people out of poverty sorry yes half a people out of poverty sorry yes half a billion people out of poverty but they billion people out of poverty but they billion people out of poverty but they also you know basically took over most also you know basically took over most also you know basically took over most production in the world uh and so of production in the world uh and so of production in the world uh and so of course you know much many rich countries course you know much many rich countries course you know much many rich countries could decarbonize and or or at least could decarbonize and or or at least could decarbonize and or or at least reduce their carbon emissions and feel reduce their carbon emissions and feel reduce their carbon emissions and feel very virtuous about it but fundamentally very virtuous about it but fundamentally very virtuous about it but fundamentally we haven't solved how does the world do we haven't solved how does the world do we haven't solved how does the world do this and and that's why I think we're this and and that's why I think we're this and and that's why I think we're also left with this sense of not only also left with this sense of not only also left with this sense of not only are we being told this is a you know are we being told this is a you know are we being told this is a you know unmitigated catastrophe and that's why unmitigated catastrophe and that's why unmitigated catastrophe and that's why this is the only thing we should be this is the only thing we should be this is the only thing we should be focusing on but also somehow and and we focusing on but also somehow and and we focusing on but also somehow and and we can all fix it and and I don't think we can all fix it and and I don't think we can all fix it and and I don't think we have any sense of how hard this is have any sense of how hard this is have any sense of how hard this is actually going to be and that's of actually going to be and that's of actually going to be and that's of course why I would go back and say look course why I would go back and say look course why I would go back and say look the only way you're going to fix this is the only way you're going to fix this is the only way you're going to fix this is through Innovation because if you have through Innovation because if you have through Innovation because if you have something that's cheaper than fossil something that's cheaper than fossil something that's cheaper than fossil fuels you fixed it if you have something fuels you fixed it if you have something fuels you fixed it if you have something that's harder and you know costlier and that's harder and you know costlier and that's harder and you know costlier and more inconvenient no well you're just more inconvenient no well you're just more inconvenient no well you're just not going to make it and getting more

not going to make it and getting more not going to make it and getting more time by cutting vulnerability yes the time by cutting vulnerability yes the time by cutting vulnerability yes the pockets of vulnerability on the planet pockets of vulnerability on the planet pockets of vulnerability on the planet are huge and they're identifiable and are huge and they're identifiable and are huge and they're identifiable and you know what to do what are the biggest you know what to do what are the biggest you know what to do what are the biggest pockets of vulnerability well the pockets of vulnerability well the pockets of vulnerability well the infrastructure of cities no it's where infrastructure of cities no it's where infrastructure of cities no it's where people are living and what their people are living and what their people are living and what their capacities are um involving people how capacities are um involving people how capacities are um involving people how do you how do you decrease the do you how do you decrease the do you how do you decrease the vulnerability in the world what are the vulnerability in the world what are the vulnerability in the world what are the big affordable housing one reason so big affordable housing one reason so big affordable housing one reason so many people moved out of San Francisco many people moved out of San Francisco many people moved out of San Francisco and adjacent cities into the countryside and adjacent cities into the countryside and adjacent cities into the countryside and then had their houses burned down and then had their houses burned down and then had their houses burned down it's because they can't afford to live it's because they can't afford to live it's because they can't afford to live in the city anymore in the city anymore in the city anymore so affordable housing in cities can so affordable housing in cities can so affordable housing in cities can limit exposure to in that case Wildfire limit exposure to in that case Wildfire limit exposure to in that case Wildfire Durban South Africa that terrible Durban South Africa that terrible Durban South Africa that terrible devastating flood they had this year devastating flood they had this year devastating flood they had this year past year past year past year who was who was washed away poor people who was who was washed away poor people who was who was washed away poor people who don't have any place to live so they who don't have any place to live so they who don't have any place to live so they settle on in a flood plain along a settle on in a flood plain along a settle on in a flood plain along a stream bed that's livable you know when stream bed that's livable you know when stream bed that's livable you know when it's not raining buckets and those are it's not raining buckets and those are it's not raining buckets and those are vulnerabilities that are there because vulnerabilities that are there because vulnerabilities that are there because of um dislocation housing Taco ban this of um dislocation housing Taco ban this of um dislocation housing Taco ban this typhoon that hit the Philippines typhoon that hit the Philippines typhoon that hit the Philippines terribly ahead of the Paris talks or was terribly ahead of the Paris talks or was terribly ahead of the Paris talks or was it the previous one in 2013 I believe it the previous one in 2013 I believe it the previous one in 2013 I believe yeah yeah yeah thousands died um most of yeah yeah yeah thousands died um most of yeah yeah yeah thousands died um most of the stories that were written were the stories that were written were the stories that were written were framed around climate change because the framed around climate change because the framed around climate change because the pope made a deal about it it was just pope made a deal about it it was just pope made a deal about it it was just before the climate talks of that year before the climate talks of that year before the climate talks of that year and and and what happened partially why there were what happened partially why there were what happened partially why there were so many losses was so many losses was so many losses was Tacloban City had quadrupled in Tacloban City had quadrupled in Tacloban City had quadrupled in population in the last 30 years and most

population in the last 30 years and most population in the last 30 years and most of the people coming into the city were of the people coming into the city were of the people coming into the city were poor looking for work and settling in poor looking for work and settling in poor looking for work and settling in marginal places where a surge storm marginal places where a surge storm marginal places where a surge storm surge killed them so those are things we surge killed them so those are things we surge killed them so those are things we we the whatever the we is in the we the whatever the we is in the we the whatever the we is in the different places different places different places really can work on and that gives more really can work on and that gives more really can work on and that gives more Flex for sure and thinking about how Flex for sure and thinking about how Flex for sure and thinking about how this long trajectory that seems so this long trajectory that seems so this long trajectory that seems so immovable and so hard the immovable and so hard the immovable and so hard the decarbonization part decarbonization part decarbonization part there's there's no excuse I wrote a there's there's no excuse I wrote a there's there's no excuse I wrote a piece not I guess a year ago piece not I guess a year ago piece not I guess a year ago I said there's a vulnerability emergency I said there's a vulnerability emergency I said there's a vulnerability emergency hiding behind this ex this climate hiding behind this ex this climate hiding behind this ex this climate emergency label that that's really what emergency label that that's really what emergency label that that's really what needs work and and also on the taco Bond needs work and and also on the taco Bond needs work and and also on the taco Bond I mean the the hurricane that hit in I mean the the hurricane that hit in I mean the the hurricane that hit in 2013 there was almost a similar 2013 there was almost a similar 2013 there was almost a similar hurricane in the early part of uh 1900s hurricane in the early part of uh 1900s hurricane in the early part of uh 1900s that hit pretty much the same pretty that hit pretty much the same pretty that hit pretty much the same pretty much the same strength and it eradicated much the same strength and it eradicated much the same strength and it eradicated half the city it killed half the city uh half the city it killed half the city uh half the city it killed half the city uh and so what's happened since then is you and so what's happened since then is you and so what's happened since then is you know people just got much much richer know people just got much much richer know people just got much much richer you know from early 1900 to 2013 we've you know from early 1900 to 2013 we've you know from early 1900 to 2013 we've just moved a lot of people out of just moved a lot of people out of just moved a lot of people out of poverty now poverty now poverty now and yeah Bangladesh is even a bigger and yeah Bangladesh is even a bigger and yeah Bangladesh is even a bigger example of that in the 1970s they had example of that in the 1970s they had example of that in the 1970s they had horrible Cyclones one of which was the horrible Cyclones one of which was the horrible Cyclones one of which was the Beatles of George Harrison's concert for Beatles of George Harrison's concert for Beatles of George Harrison's concert for Bangladesh great album Bangladesh great album Bangladesh great album that I still have somewhere hundreds of that I still have somewhere hundreds of that I still have somewhere hundreds of thousands it's a it was he did a concert thousands it's a it was he did a concert thousands it's a it was he did a concert a fundraising concert the concert for a fundraising concert the concert for a fundraising concert the concert for Bangladesh after this terrible Cyclone Bangladesh after this terrible Cyclone Bangladesh after this terrible Cyclone tragedy had hit Bangladesh and I think tragedy had hit Bangladesh and I think tragedy had hit Bangladesh and I think there was there were several hundred there was there were several hundred there was there were several hundred thousand which were killed uh and a thousand which were killed uh and a thousand which were killed uh and a couple like that around that time

couple like that around that time couple like that around that time Bangladesh has been hit by comparable Bangladesh has been hit by comparable Bangladesh has been hit by comparable storms recently and it's terrible every storms recently and it's terrible every storms recently and it's terrible every death is terrible but it's like 123 death is terrible but it's like 123 death is terrible but it's like 123 deaths and it's not just because of deaths and it's not just because of deaths and it's not just because of wealth it's because people know what to wealth it's because people know what to wealth it's because people know what to do it's because there's cell phones it's do it's because there's cell phones it's do it's because there's cell phones it's because they have elevated Platforms in because they have elevated Platforms in because they have elevated Platforms in many towns in many communities in the many towns in many communities in the many towns in many communities in the flood Plains there that you know to get flood Plains there that you know to get flood Plains there that you know to get to so they went from hundreds of to so they went from hundreds of to so they went from hundreds of thousands of deaths thousands of deaths thousands of deaths in a cyclone to 123. and we were working in a cyclone to 123. and we were working in a cyclone to 123. and we were working with Bangladesh it's no longer the with Bangladesh it's no longer the with Bangladesh it's no longer the problem of of people dying it's the fact problem of of people dying it's the fact problem of of people dying it's the fact that their cattle dies so you know they that their cattle dies so you know they that their cattle dies so you know they want it they want to cattle places where want it they want to cattle places where want it they want to cattle places where you could herd your cat this this is you could herd your cat this this is you could herd your cat this this is their capital and it's not to make fun their capital and it's not to make fun their capital and it's not to make fun of it but you know it's an amazing of it but you know it's an amazing of it but you know it's an amazing progress that you've stopped worrying progress that you've stopped worrying progress that you've stopped worrying about your you know your parents dying about your you know your parents dying about your you know your parents dying and you worry about your cows dying and and you worry about your cows dying and and you worry about your cows dying and when I was talking about social when I was talking about social when I was talking about social Innovation the other hour there's a Innovation the other hour there's a Innovation the other hour there's a model emerging in Bangladesh for uh model emerging in Bangladesh for uh model emerging in Bangladesh for uh Farmers to move from raising chickens Farmers to move from raising chickens Farmers to move from raising chickens poultry to ducks poultry to ducks poultry to ducks and it's working and Ducks actually and it's working and Ducks actually and it's working and Ducks actually fetch a higher price at the market fetch a higher price at the market fetch a higher price at the market and guess what when you get flooded they and guess what when you get flooded they and guess what when you get flooded they survive you can still have your income survive you can still have your income survive you can still have your income and your future let me ask you to give advice put on let me ask you to give advice put on your Sage your Sage your Sage wise hat and give advice to young people wise hat and give advice to young people wise hat and give advice to young people that are looking into this sure yeah um that are looking into this sure yeah um that are looking into this sure yeah um into this world and see how they can do into this world and see how they can do into this world and see how they can do the most good we talked about the most good we talked about the most good we talked about what is the one dollar that can do the what is the one dollar that can do the what is the one dollar that can do the most positive Improvement and to lead to most positive Improvement and to lead to most positive Improvement and to lead to forty dollars forty five dollars and so forty dollars forty five dollars and so forty dollars forty five dollars and so on what advice would you give to young

on what advice would you give to young on what advice would you give to young people in high school in college people in high school in college people in high school in college how to have a positive impact on the how to have a positive impact on the how to have a positive impact on the world how to have a career they can be world how to have a career they can be world how to have a career they can be proud of maybe ask Bjorn first and how proud of maybe ask Bjorn first and how proud of maybe ask Bjorn first and how to have a life to be they can be proud to have a life to be they can be proud to have a life to be they can be proud of of of so I think and and this really you know so I think and and this really you know so I think and and this really you know pretty well reflects the whole pretty well reflects the whole pretty well reflects the whole conversation we've had we've got to sort conversation we've had we've got to sort conversation we've had we've got to sort of take the the uh the catastrophism out of take the the uh the catastrophism out of take the the uh the catastrophism out of the uh of the climate conversation uh of the uh of the climate conversation uh of the uh of the climate conversation uh and and you know this really matters and and you know this really matters and and you know this really matters because a lot of kids literally think because a lot of kids literally think because a lot of kids literally think that the world is going to end pretty that the world is going to end pretty that the world is going to end pretty soon and that obviously makes any other soon and that obviously makes any other soon and that obviously makes any other kind of plan uh uh uh uh meaningless so kind of plan uh uh uh uh meaningless so kind of plan uh uh uh uh meaningless so first of all look you're not going to first of all look you're not going to first of all look you're not going to die uh you know that that poster that die uh you know that that poster that die uh you know that that poster that people that a lot of kids have you're people that a lot of kids have you're people that a lot of kids have you're going to die from old age but I'm gonna going to die from old age but I'm gonna going to die from old age but I'm gonna die from climate no you're not you're die from climate no you're not you're die from climate no you're not you're gonna die from old age and you're gonna gonna die from old age and you're gonna gonna die from old age and you're gonna die much older very likely right so the die much older very likely right so the die much older very likely right so the reality is the world is has improved reality is the world is has improved reality is the world is has improved dramatically and it's very likely to dramatically and it's very likely to dramatically and it's very likely to improve even more so the Baseline is improve even more so the Baseline is improve even more so the Baseline is good this is just you know the facts good this is just you know the facts good this is just you know the facts then there's still lots and lots of then there's still lots and lots of then there's still lots and lots of problems and what you should do as a problems and what you should do as a problems and what you should do as a young person is stop being you know young person is stop being you know young person is stop being you know Paralyzed by fear and then realize what Paralyzed by fear and then realize what Paralyzed by fear and then realize what you can do is basically help Humanity you can do is basically help Humanity you can do is basically help Humanity become even smarter become even smarter become even smarter there's a lot of different places you there's a lot of different places you there's a lot of different places you can do I mean the obvious thing when can do I mean the obvious thing when can do I mean the obvious thing when you're talking about climate is what if you're talking about climate is what if you're talking about climate is what if you could become the guy that you know you could become the guy that you know you could become the guy that you know develops fourth generation nuclear up develops fourth generation nuclear up develops fourth generation nuclear up it's very likely something that neither

it's very likely something that neither it's very likely something that neither of us know anything about right now but of us know anything about right now but of us know anything about right now but develop that you know the energy source develop that you know the energy source develop that you know the energy source they'll basically power the rest of they'll basically power the rest of they'll basically power the rest of humanity how cool would that be that's humanity how cool would that be that's humanity how cool would that be that's one of the many things you could do but one of the many things you could do but one of the many things you could do but again also remember there are lots and again also remember there are lots and again also remember there are lots and lots of other things that need Solutions lots of other things that need Solutions lots of other things that need Solutions so what about you come become the guy so what about you come become the guy so what about you come become the guy that makes the or the girl that makes that makes the or the girl that makes that makes the or the girl that makes the uh the social innovation in in the uh the social innovation in in the uh the social innovation in in Tanzania or in Kenya sorry in Kenya or Tanzania or in Kenya sorry in Kenya or Tanzania or in Kenya sorry in Kenya or what about if you become the person who what about if you become the person who what about if you become the person who finds a way that is a much cheaper more finds a way that is a much cheaper more finds a way that is a much cheaper more effective way to tackle tuberculosis effective way to tackle tuberculosis effective way to tackle tuberculosis right now it needs four to six months of right now it needs four to six months of right now it needs four to six months of medication that one of the big problems medication that one of the big problems medication that one of the big problems is once you've popped the pills and is once you've popped the pills and is once you've popped the pills and you're you're fresh it's really hard to you're you're fresh it's really hard to you're you're fresh it's really hard to get people to do it for the other five get people to do it for the other five get people to do it for the other five and a half months right and and and you and a half months right and and and you and a half months right and and and you need that otherwise you actually have a need that otherwise you actually have a need that otherwise you actually have a big risk of of getting multi-drug big risk of of getting multi-drug big risk of of getting multi-drug resistant tuberculosis which is a real resistant tuberculosis which is a real resistant tuberculosis which is a real Scourge on the on the earth so you know Scourge on the on the earth so you know Scourge on the on the earth so you know what if you develop that so the the what if you develop that so the the what if you develop that so the the truth is not only can your life be much truth is not only can your life be much truth is not only can your life be much better when you sort of ditched that uh better when you sort of ditched that uh better when you sort of ditched that uh that doomerism but it also becomes much that doomerism but it also becomes much that doomerism but it also becomes much more possible for you to be a positive more possible for you to be a positive more possible for you to be a positive part of making sure that you do that part of making sure that you do that part of making sure that you do that progress why has the world improved so progress why has the world improved so progress why has the world improved so much because our parents and great much because our parents and great much because our parents and great grandparents they made all this work you grandparents they made all this work you grandparents they made all this work you know this was all their Innovations and know this was all their Innovations and know this was all their Innovations and a lot of hard work and I'm incredibly a lot of hard work and I'm incredibly a lot of hard work and I'm incredibly grateful that they've done it but now grateful that they've done it but now grateful that they've done it but now it's kind of time to pay back so you it's kind of time to pay back so you it's kind of time to pay back so you know you got to do this for our you know know you got to do this for our you know know you got to do this for our you know our grandkids you've got to make those

our grandkids you've got to make those our grandkids you've got to make those Innovations make those uh policy Innovations make those uh policy Innovations make those uh policy opportunities they'll make the world opportunities they'll make the world opportunities they'll make the world even an even better place even an even better place even an even better place totally and and to me totally and and to me totally and and to me there's never been a better time to be there's never been a better time to be there's never been a better time to be effective as a young person because the effective as a young person because the effective as a young person because the internet internet internet connectedness you can brainstorm with connectedness you can brainstorm with connectedness you can brainstorm with someone in another country just as someone in another country just as someone in another country just as easily as you can brainstorm with easily as you can brainstorm with easily as you can brainstorm with someone down the block when we were kids someone down the block when we were kids someone down the block when we were kids as I said earlier with my my pen pal as I said earlier with my my pen pal as I said earlier with my my pen pal with letters taking weeks to come and with letters taking weeks to come and with letters taking weeks to come and um so the Key Properties um so the Key Properties um so the Key Properties ideally that young people ideally that young people ideally that young people would do well to cultivate our um well would do well to cultivate our um well would do well to cultivate our um well certainly adaptability certainly adaptability certainly adaptability because change is changing not just you because change is changing not just you because change is changing not just you know the rate of change is changing know the rate of change is changing know the rate of change is changing these layers of change are all piling up these layers of change are all piling up these layers of change are all piling up on each other on each other on each other um um um having an ability to understand the having an ability to understand the having an ability to understand the information environment information environment information environment is this fundamental need now that wasn't is this fundamental need now that wasn't is this fundamental need now that wasn't a need when we were growing up we read a need when we were growing up we read a need when we were growing up we read that a few newspapers my dad would turn that a few newspapers my dad would turn that a few newspapers my dad would turn on the Nightly News and Walter Cronkite on the Nightly News and Walter Cronkite on the Nightly News and Walter Cronkite would say that's the way it is because would say that's the way it is because would say that's the way it is because that's the way it is and that's so not that's the way it is and that's so not that's the way it is and that's so not the way the media environment is now so the way the media environment is now so the way the media environment is now so courses in media literacy should be kind courses in media literacy should be kind courses in media literacy should be kind of fundamental of fundamental of fundamental parts of curriculum from like parts of curriculum from like parts of curriculum from like kindergarten on or parents can do the kindergarten on or parents can do the kindergarten on or parents can do the same thing that there's a woman at URI same thing that there's a woman at URI same thing that there's a woman at URI University of Rhode Island Renee Hobbs University of Rhode Island Renee Hobbs University of Rhode Island Renee Hobbs who teaches a course in propaganda who teaches a course in propaganda who teaches a course in propaganda literacy literacy literacy and she said you know the the the and she said you know the the the and she said you know the the the history of the word is not bad

history of the word is not bad history of the word is not bad propaganda could be good it's Pro it's propaganda could be good it's Pro it's propaganda could be good it's Pro it's for the for the church yeah she did a for the for the church yeah she did a for the for the church yeah she did a wonderful chat with the uh she laid this wonderful chat with the uh she laid this wonderful chat with the uh she laid this out and but understanding when it is out and but understanding when it is out and but understanding when it is propaganda like the tobacco you know propaganda like the tobacco you know propaganda like the tobacco you know there is hopefully a difference between there is hopefully a difference between there is hopefully a difference between that and and that right cigarette ads that and and that right cigarette ads that and and that right cigarette ads and and and and and and and and and and and and journalistically acquired information journalistically acquired information journalistically acquired information so Akita all everything Bjorn was so Akita all everything Bjorn was so Akita all everything Bjorn was talking about too is just understanding talking about too is just understanding talking about too is just understanding how how to not be sucked into this how how to not be sucked into this how how to not be sucked into this information environment and spit out as information environment and spit out as information environment and spit out as a paralyzed doomist entity a paralyzed doomist entity a paralyzed doomist entity because once you have the ability to because once you have the ability to because once you have the ability to step back step back step back then you can use Twitter or whatever then you can use Twitter or whatever then you can use Twitter or whatever you're on you're on you're on to find people who might have a skill to find people who might have a skill to find people who might have a skill set you don't have that is something you set you don't have that is something you set you don't have that is something you need to do to to incorporate to harness need to do to to incorporate to harness need to do to to incorporate to harness to do the thing you want to do in the to do the thing you want to do in the to do the thing you want to do in the world world world finding your way to make the world finding your way to make the world finding your way to make the world better and it can have nothing to do better and it can have nothing to do better and it can have nothing to do with climate with climate with climate but if it makes a few more people's but if it makes a few more people's but if it makes a few more people's lives better then overall you're leading lives better then overall you're leading lives better then overall you're leading toward better capacity for all this toward better capacity for all this toward better capacity for all this stuff so that and and then the climate stuff so that and and then the climate stuff so that and and then the climate problem the Prismatic giant nature of it problem the Prismatic giant nature of it problem the Prismatic giant nature of it is what makes it is what makes it is what makes it so daunting but it's also it gives so daunting but it's also it gives so daunting but it's also it gives everybody an opportunity everybody an opportunity everybody an opportunity like there's something for artists like there's something for artists like there's something for artists scientists poets everybody needs to get scientists poets everybody needs to get scientists poets everybody needs to get into the game into the game into the game I just spent some time with Kim Stanley I just spent some time with Kim Stanley I just spent some time with Kim Stanley Robinson who wrote that book Ministry of Robinson who wrote that book Ministry of Robinson who wrote that book Ministry of the future which is this sprawling novel the future which is this sprawling novel the future which is this sprawling novel about about about a worst case a worst case outcome where a worst case a worst case outcome where a worst case a worst case outcome where everyone in India is dying and and uh

everyone in India is dying and and uh everyone in India is dying and and uh you know so fiction can help you know so fiction can help you know so fiction can help experiment different kinds of fiction experiment different kinds of fiction experiment different kinds of fiction different kinds of Arts can help us sort different kinds of Arts can help us sort different kinds of Arts can help us sort of experiment with what the future might of experiment with what the future might of experiment with what the future might look like different ways and just get look like different ways and just get look like different ways and just get get started and the other thing get started and the other thing get started and the other thing unfortunately that's needed I think I first said this in 2008 when I think I first said this in 2008 when someone asked me something about climate someone asked me something about climate someone asked me something about climate I said I said I said weirdly you have to sort of have a sense weirdly you have to sort of have a sense weirdly you have to sort of have a sense of urgency but a sense of patience at of urgency but a sense of patience at of urgency but a sense of patience at the same time the same time the same time like just roll those words around in like just roll those words around in like just roll those words around in your mind like what does that mean your mind like what does that mean your mind like what does that mean urgent and patient how could that urgent and patient how could that urgent and patient how could that possibly be possibly be possibly be but actually it really is the reality but actually it really is the reality but actually it really is the reality you there is an urgency with this you there is an urgency with this you there is an urgency with this building gas that's cumulative that building gas that's cumulative that building gas that's cumulative that doesn't go away like smoke when when the doesn't go away like smoke when when the doesn't go away like smoke when when the when it rains when it rains when it rains and every year that happens it's adding and every year that happens it's adding and every year that happens it's adding to risk and you can kind of wake up to risk and you can kind of wake up to risk and you can kind of wake up completely freaked out urgent completely freaked out urgent completely freaked out urgent but when you realize energy transitions but when you realize energy transitions but when you realize energy transitions take time then you have to sort of find take time then you have to sort of find take time then you have to sort of find patience or whatever your word is for patience or whatever your word is for patience or whatever your word is for that that that yeah I think you have to oscillate back yeah I think you have to oscillate back yeah I think you have to oscillate back and forth throughout the day having a and forth throughout the day having a and forth throughout the day having a sense of urgency when you're trying to sense of urgency when you're trying to sense of urgency when you're trying to actually be productive and a patience so actually be productive and a patience so actually be productive and a patience so you can have a calm Header by you in you can have a calm Header by you in you can have a calm Header by you in terms of putting everything into terms of putting everything into terms of putting everything into perspective yeah and like you said with perspective yeah and like you said with perspective yeah and like you said with information information information that is interesting especially in the that is interesting especially in the that is interesting especially in the scientific Community I think you've scientific Community I think you've scientific Community I think you've spoken about this before spoken about this before spoken about this before you know that there is some you know that there is some you know that there is some responsibility or at least an responsibility or at least an responsibility or at least an opportunity for scientists to not just opportunity for scientists to not just opportunity for scientists to not just do science but to understand the do science but to understand the do science but to understand the Dynamics of Dynamics of Dynamics of the different mediums in which the different mediums in which the different mediums in which information is exchanged so it could be information is exchanged so it could be information is exchanged so it could be Twitter for a few years then it could be

Twitter for a few years then it could be Twitter for a few years then it could be Tick Tock then it could be you know I'm Tick Tock then it could be you know I'm Tick Tock then it could be you know I'm a huge believer in the power of YouTube a huge believer in the power of YouTube a huge believer in the power of YouTube over the next over the next over the next several years perhaps decades I mean several years perhaps decades I mean several years perhaps decades I mean it's a very interesting medium for it's a very interesting medium for it's a very interesting medium for education and communication for debate education and communication for debate education and communication for debate and that's Grassroots that's from like and that's Grassroots that's from like and that's Grassroots that's from like the bottom up you know that that every the bottom up you know that that every the bottom up you know that that every scientist is able to communicate their scientist is able to communicate their scientist is able to communicate their work and I I personally believe have the work and I I personally believe have the work and I I personally believe have the responsibility to communicate that work responsibility to communicate that work responsibility to communicate that work if anything the internet made me realize if anything the internet made me realize if anything the internet made me realize the science is not just about the science is not just about the science is not just about doing the science it's about doing the science it's about doing the science it's about communicating it communicating it communicating it like that this is not some kind of like that this is not some kind of like that this is not some kind of virtue signaling on my part no no no virtue signaling on my part no no no virtue signaling on my part no no no like I feel like if the tree falls in like I feel like if the tree falls in like I feel like if the tree falls in the forest and nobody's around to hear the forest and nobody's around to hear the forest and nobody's around to hear it it really didn't fall it it really didn't fall it it really didn't fall like that's not you should there should like that's not you should there should like that's not you should there should be a culture of be a culture of be a culture of um whoever at MIT um whoever at MIT um whoever at MIT is a place called the media lab yes sir is a place called the media lab yes sir is a place called the media lab yes sir where they really emphasize where they really emphasize where they really emphasize uh like you always be able to demo uh like you always be able to demo uh like you always be able to demo something to show off your work they something to show off your work they something to show off your work they really emphasize showing off their work really emphasize showing off their work really emphasize showing off their work and I think that was in some part and I think that was in some part and I think that was in some part criticized in the bigger MIT culture criticized in the bigger MIT culture criticized in the bigger MIT culture that that that you know that's that's like being you know that's that's like being you know that's that's like being focusing too much on the pr versus doing focusing too much on the pr versus doing focusing too much on the pr versus doing the science but I really disagree with the science but I really disagree with the science but I really disagree with that of course there's a balance to that of course there's a balance to that of course there's a balance to strike you don't want to be all smoke strike you don't want to be all smoke strike you don't want to be all smoke and mirrors but there really is a lot of and mirrors but there really is a lot of and mirrors but there really is a lot of value to communication and not just sort

value to communication and not just sort value to communication and not just sort of some broad you almost don't want to of some broad you almost don't want to of some broad you almost don't want to teach a course on communication Because teach a course on communication Because teach a course on communication Because by the time you teach the course at 38 by the time you teach the course at 38 by the time you teach the course at 38 too late it's always being on top of too late it's always being on top of too late it's always being on top of how what is the language what is the how what is the language what is the how what is the language what is the culture and the etiquette what is the culture and the etiquette what is the culture and the etiquette what is the technology of communication that is technology of communication that is technology of communication that is effective yeah I actually had a big effective yeah I actually had a big effective yeah I actually had a big conversation about that in my my conversation about that in my my conversation about that in my my University because I think and this is University because I think and this is University because I think and this is perhaps especially true for for social perhaps especially true for for social perhaps especially true for for social sciences but I think it's probably true sciences but I think it's probably true sciences but I think it's probably true for everyone uh just simply for everyone uh just simply for everyone uh just simply communicating what it is that you've communicating what it is that you've communicating what it is that you've done in research makes it possible for done in research makes it possible for done in research makes it possible for you to sort of get an outsider's you to sort of get an outsider's you to sort of get an outsider's perspective and see did I just go into perspective and see did I just go into perspective and see did I just go into an incredibly deep uh you know whole an incredibly deep uh you know whole an incredibly deep uh you know whole that you know just three other people that you know just three other people that you know just three other people really care about in the world or is really care about in the world or is really care about in the world or is this actually Something That Matters to this actually Something That Matters to this actually Something That Matters to the world and and being able to explain the world and and being able to explain the world and and being able to explain what it is that you've done to everyone what it is that you've done to everyone what it is that you've done to everyone else uh makes you know my sort of sense else uh makes you know my sort of sense else uh makes you know my sort of sense is if you can't say it in a couple is if you can't say it in a couple is if you can't say it in a couple minutes it's probably it's not minutes it's probably it's not minutes it's probably it's not necessarily true but it's probably necessarily true but it's probably necessarily true but it's probably because it wasn't all that important because it wasn't all that important because it wasn't all that important there was a hashtag there was a hashtag there was a hashtag generated maybe seven years ago by a generated maybe seven years ago by a generated maybe seven years ago by a Caltech PhD candidate a woman Caltech PhD candidate a woman Caltech PhD candidate a woman and it was fantastic the hashtag was I and it was fantastic the hashtag was I and it was fantastic the hashtag was I am a Scientist because am a Scientist because am a Scientist because and she posted it with a picture of and she posted it with a picture of and she posted it with a picture of herself with her answer you know herself with her answer you know herself with her answer you know and that I when I talked to scientists and that I when I talked to scientists and that I when I talked to scientists or basically anybody about communicating or basically anybody about communicating or basically anybody about communicating I say start don't start with I am a I'm I say start don't start with I am a I'm I say start don't start with I am a I'm a phytologist and I use a a phytologist and I use a a phytologist and I use a spectrophotometer to do X

spectrophotometer to do X spectrophotometer to do X start with I'm a scientist because start with I'm a scientist because start with I'm a scientist because the world is endlessly interesting and I the world is endlessly interesting and I the world is endlessly interesting and I just found these salamanders just found these salamanders just found these salamanders which are going to vanish if we don't which are going to vanish if we don't which are going to vanish if we don't stop this fungus from coming to the stop this fungus from coming to the stop this fungus from coming to the United States utterly interesting and United States utterly interesting and United States utterly interesting and then you then you've got people hooked then you then you've got people hooked then you then you've got people hooked but it's the motivation part because but it's the motivation part because but it's the motivation part because everyone grew up as a kid and a kid is everyone grew up as a kid and a kid is everyone grew up as a kid and a kid is basically like a scientist wow what the basically like a scientist wow what the basically like a scientist wow what the hell is this how does this work so you hell is this how does this work so you hell is this how does this work so you can connect with people that way the but can connect with people that way the but can connect with people that way the but the this other issue you approached is the this other issue you approached is the this other issue you approached is really important and what I love about really important and what I love about really important and what I love about MIT particularly I spent a lot of time MIT particularly I spent a lot of time MIT particularly I spent a lot of time there over the decades not just talking there over the decades not just talking there over the decades not just talking to the hurricane guy to the hurricane guy to the hurricane guy um Amy Smith who's the development lab um Amy Smith who's the development lab um Amy Smith who's the development lab in the basement there somewhere most of in the basement there somewhere most of in the basement there somewhere most of my team looks like it's the basement but my team looks like it's the basement but my team looks like it's the basement but yeah it's sort of like this part of the yeah it's sort of like this part of the yeah it's sort of like this part of the charm here but it's a usability function charm here but it's a usability function charm here but it's a usability function as part of a lot of that goes on there as part of a lot of that goes on there as part of a lot of that goes on there it's engineering and Science and it it's engineering and Science and it it's engineering and Science and it reminds me of 1997 reminds me of 1997 reminds me of 1997 these two very different scientists Dan these two very different scientists Dan these two very different scientists Dan Cameron at Berkeley and Michael Dove at Cameron at Berkeley and Michael Dove at Cameron at Berkeley and Michael Dove at Yale Yale Yale wrote a Manifesto it was um the virtues wrote a Manifesto it was um the virtues wrote a Manifesto it was um the virtues of mundane science that's what they of mundane science that's what they of mundane science that's what they called it it was a prod to the called it it was a prod to the called it it was a prod to the scientific Community to actually it's scientific Community to actually it's scientific Community to actually it's about useful utility because the whole about useful utility because the whole about useful utility because the whole arena is set up to advance your career arena is set up to advance your career arena is set up to advance your career through through through revealing new knowledge that will get revealing new knowledge that will get revealing new knowledge that will get you 10 years someday and you 10 years someday and you 10 years someday and actually doing useful science is actually doing useful science is actually doing useful science is disincentivized having a conversation disincentivized having a conversation disincentivized having a conversation and especially if it involves and especially if it involves and especially if it involves more than one discipline more than one discipline more than one discipline because as a young scientist I there was

because as a young scientist I there was because as a young scientist I there was some science some postdocs at Columbia some science some postdocs at Columbia some science some postdocs at Columbia who wrote this other Manifesto paper who wrote this other Manifesto paper who wrote this other Manifesto paper saying here are the things universities saying here are the things universities saying here are the things universities need to do need to do need to do to Foster the collaborative capacity we to Foster the collaborative capacity we to Foster the collaborative capacity we need to have sustainable development need to have sustainable development need to have sustainable development and it was like four or five things that and it was like four or five things that and it was like four or five things that universities don't do universities don't do universities don't do give you time to become fluent and give you time to become fluent and give you time to become fluent and for a for a physicist to talk to an for a for a physicist to talk to an for a for a physicist to talk to an anthropologist and understand how anthropologist and understand how anthropologist and understand how anthropology works for sociology takes anthropology works for sociology takes anthropology works for sociology takes time and then building a relationship time and then building a relationship time and then building a relationship with a community that has a problem that with a community that has a problem that with a community that has a problem that you want to fix takes time you want to fix takes time you want to fix takes time and you so you do these like quick and you so you do these like quick and you so you do these like quick turnaround papers turnaround papers turnaround papers that get you toward your little micro that get you toward your little micro that get you toward your little micro career goal but they're not actually career goal but they're not actually career goal but they're not actually getting you what you want in the world getting you what you want in the world getting you what you want in the world those are really hard problems going those are really hard problems going those are really hard problems going forward but starting with that idea of forward but starting with that idea of forward but starting with that idea of usability usability usability what can I do with my skill sets you what can I do with my skill sets you what can I do with my skill sets you know a lot of great physicists I know know a lot of great physicists I know know a lot of great physicists I know are dug in on string theory and stuff are dug in on string theory and stuff are dug in on string theory and stuff and this some someone has to dig in on and this some someone has to dig in on and this some someone has to dig in on that too but I'd like to pull a little that too but I'd like to pull a little that too but I'd like to pull a little bit of their brain power away to think bit of their brain power away to think bit of their brain power away to think about some of the Practical things Bjorn about some of the Practical things Bjorn about some of the Practical things Bjorn thinks about too thinks about too thinks about too so the the two of you have been so the the two of you have been so the the two of you have been thinking about some of the biggest thinking about some of the biggest thinking about some of the biggest questions questions questions which is life here on Earth the history which is life here on Earth the history which is life here on Earth the history of life here the future of life here on of life here the future of life here on of life here the future of life here on Earth Earth Earth of Earth itself of Earth itself of Earth itself and how to allocate our resources to and how to allocate our resources to and how to allocate our resources to alleviate suffering in the world so let alleviate suffering in the world so let alleviate suffering in the world so let me ask the big question what do you me ask the big question what do you me ask the big question what do you think is the the why of it all think is the the why of it all think is the the why of it all what's the meaning of it what's the what's the meaning of it what's the what's the meaning of it what's the meaning of our life here on Earth

you you waited till the last moment to you you waited till the last moment to ask us that question yes yes in case ask us that question yes yes in case ask us that question yes yes in case there's there's there's uh yeah in case in case I can trick you uh yeah in case in case I can trick you uh yeah in case in case I can trick you into finding an answer into finding an answer into finding an answer well so I mean again I'm just going to well so I mean again I'm just going to well so I mean again I'm just going to take a stab in this because uh I think take a stab in this because uh I think take a stab in this because uh I think in some ways it's um it's the same thing in some ways it's um it's the same thing in some ways it's um it's the same thing that you were talking about before it's that you were talking about before it's that you were talking about before it's not about getting everybody sort of on not about getting everybody sort of on not about getting everybody sort of on the same track and all agree on the same track and all agree on the same track and all agree on something but it's about getting a lot something but it's about getting a lot something but it's about getting a lot of people with very different you know of people with very different you know of people with very different you know uh goals and targets and ways of uh goals and targets and ways of uh goals and targets and ways of thinking about the world to go in the thinking about the world to go in the thinking about the world to go in the same direction so for me the goal of same direction so for me the goal of same direction so for me the goal of Life certainly Michael but I think for Life certainly Michael but I think for Life certainly Michael but I think for for most people is to make the world a for most people is to make the world a for most people is to make the world a better place it sounds incredibly better place it sounds incredibly better place it sounds incredibly pedestrian because it becomes so pedestrian because it becomes so pedestrian because it becomes so overused but that really and literally overused but that really and literally overused but that really and literally is the point you you know your point of is the point you you know your point of is the point you you know your point of your life is to you know when when one your life is to you know when when one your life is to you know when when one of your friends is uh sad to make sure of your friends is uh sad to make sure of your friends is uh sad to make sure that they sort of get out of that and that they sort of get out of that and that they sort of get out of that and and find out why they're sad and maybe and find out why they're sad and maybe and find out why they're sad and maybe move them a little bit in the right move them a little bit in the right move them a little bit in the right direction and you know and and all the direction and you know and and all the direction and you know and and all the things that we've talked about you know things that we've talked about you know things that we've talked about you know stop people from dying from tuberculosis stop people from dying from tuberculosis stop people from dying from tuberculosis and live longer lives and fix climate and live longer lives and fix climate and live longer lives and fix climate change but fix it in such a way change but fix it in such a way change but fix it in such a way that we actually use resources smartest that we actually use resources smartest that we actually use resources smartest because there are lots of problems so because there are lots of problems so because there are lots of problems so let's make sure we you know we we deal let's make sure we you know we we deal let's make sure we you know we we deal with them adequately this is this is with them adequately this is this is with them adequately this is this is very unsexy in some sense uh but I think very unsexy in some sense uh but I think very unsexy in some sense uh but I think it's also very basic and really what it it's also very basic and really what it it's also very basic and really what it matters well you know biologically matters well you know biologically matters well you know biologically Evolution that has demanded that life is

Evolution that has demanded that life is Evolution that has demanded that life is about finding sources of energy about finding sources of energy about finding sources of energy and perpetuating yourself right so and perpetuating yourself right so and perpetuating yourself right so that's the Baseline that's the Baseline that's the Baseline and that's led us into a bit of a and that's led us into a bit of a and that's led us into a bit of a bollocks because we have this easy bollocks because we have this easy bollocks because we have this easy energy that's come from the ground so energy that's come from the ground so energy that's come from the ground so far and far and far and um but our Brilliance has um but our Brilliance has um but our Brilliance has given this this larger awareness of given this this larger awareness of given this this larger awareness of everything about the planet is everything about the planet is everything about the planet is transitory transitory transitory and I said well how do you work with and I said well how do you work with and I said well how do you work with that productively is is really an that productively is is really an that productively is is really an important question I could just sort of important question I could just sort of important question I could just sort of you know try to be as rich as possible you know try to be as rich as possible you know try to be as rich as possible and use as much energy as possible and and use as much energy as possible and and use as much energy as possible and have other people have other people have other people I mean Alex Epstein I think again this I mean Alex Epstein I think again this I mean Alex Epstein I think again this is one of the constraints on my support is one of the constraints on my support is one of the constraints on my support for what he says is he's just talking for what he says is he's just talking for what he says is he's just talking about about about growth and progress in that sense but growth and progress in that sense but growth and progress in that sense but there are consequences and there are there are consequences and there are there are consequences and there are long-term trajectories here that have to long-term trajectories here that have to long-term trajectories here that have to be taken into account too be taken into account too be taken into account too um so what do you wake up um so what do you wake up um so what do you wake up to do to me it's finding your part of to do to me it's finding your part of to do to me it's finding your part of this this this and as Bjorn said and as Bjorn said and as Bjorn said finding a way to pursue and expand finding a way to pursue and expand finding a way to pursue and expand betterment betterment betterment when I taught I was at Pace University when I taught I was at Pace University when I taught I was at Pace University for six years for six years for six years and one of the courses I launched there and one of the courses I launched there and one of the courses I launched there was called blogging a better planet was called blogging a better planet was called blogging a better planet and it was for grad students mostly in and it was for grad students mostly in and it was for grad students mostly in communication it wasn't an environment communication it wasn't an environment communication it wasn't an environment it wasn't like better Planet like save it wasn't like better Planet like save it wasn't like better Planet like save the climate it was but my task for the the climate it was but my task for the the climate it was but my task for the students was to blog about something students was to blog about something students was to blog about something they're passionate about first of all they're passionate about first of all they're passionate about first of all because you can't do this just like you because you can't do this just like you because you can't do this just like you can't do your conversations if you don't can't do your conversations if you don't can't do your conversations if you don't wake up in the morning wanting to do

wake up in the morning wanting to do wake up in the morning wanting to do what you're doing right you're doing what you're doing right you're doing what you're doing right you're doing this I used to call myself a selfish this I used to call myself a selfish this I used to call myself a selfish blogger because I was learning every day blogger because I was learning every day blogger because I was learning every day I still am I loved this you know I would I still am I loved this you know I would I still am I loved this you know I would I would my wife laughs she thinks I work I would my wife laughs she thinks I work I would my wife laughs she thinks I work too much too much too much but I'm always like asking those but I'm always like asking those but I'm always like asking those questions like sustain what yeah so so questions like sustain what yeah so so questions like sustain what yeah so so my charge to the students was my charge to the students was my charge to the students was harness a passion build a Blog either harness a passion build a Blog either harness a passion build a Blog either alone or with others alone or with others alone or with others that not just the world a little bit that not just the world a little bit that not just the world a little bit towards some better better outcome and towards some better better outcome and towards some better better outcome and so there was a musician who did a thing so there was a musician who did a thing so there was a musician who did a thing on music musicians who use their art for on music musicians who use their art for on music musicians who use their art for their work for making the world better their work for making the world better their work for making the world better some of it was like music therapy you some of it was like music therapy you some of it was like music therapy you know bands contributing money whatever know bands contributing money whatever know bands contributing money whatever another one did her blog was on Comfort another one did her blog was on Comfort another one did her blog was on Comfort comfort food all around the world and I comfort food all around the world and I comfort food all around the world and I thought it was my favorite it was a thought it was my favorite it was a thought it was my favorite it was a video this year I think it should be video this year I think it should be video this year I think it should be viral actually viral actually viral actually it was like looking at the world every it was like looking at the world every it was like looking at the world every different cultures different cultures different cultures that she was in Queens so every culture that she was in Queens so every culture that she was in Queens so every culture every Cuisine is there in Queens 200 every Cuisine is there in Queens 200 every Cuisine is there in Queens 200 countries right yeah but she would go countries right yeah but she would go countries right yeah but she would go and talk to people's moms and have them and talk to people's moms and have them and talk to people's moms and have them cook the food of that country that's cook the food of that country that's cook the food of that country that's their comfort food I mean I just love their comfort food I mean I just love their comfort food I mean I just love this because it's through we all need to this because it's through we all need to this because it's through we all need to eat and you're getting this expanded eat and you're getting this expanded eat and you're getting this expanded sense of what Comfort is by thinking sense of what Comfort is by thinking sense of what Comfort is by thinking about what other cultures you know about what other cultures you know about what other cultures you know choose and that felt like a great course choose and that felt like a great course choose and that felt like a great course because it was not directive it was just because it was not directive it was just because it was not directive it was just it gave them this potential to go it gave them this potential to go it gave them this potential to go forward you know I'd love to think forward you know I'd love to think forward you know I'd love to think they've all gone on to become Superstar they've all gone on to become Superstar they've all gone on to become Superstar whatever is I don't know that's the whatever is I don't know that's the whatever is I don't know that's the giving that's the Letting Go part giving that's the Letting Go part giving that's the Letting Go part even if one did something special then even if one did something special then even if one did something special then that makes me feel job done

that makes me feel job done that makes me feel job done and you know and you know and you know when I after I've been writing about when I after I've been writing about when I after I've been writing about climate for 30 years climate for 30 years climate for 30 years 2016-ish I 2016-ish I 2016-ish I did a lot of writing about what did I did a lot of writing about what did I did a lot of writing about what did I learn unlearned and stuff and I had had learn unlearned and stuff and I had had learn unlearned and stuff and I had had a stroke in 2011. which is interesting a stroke in 2011. which is interesting a stroke in 2011. which is interesting it was the first time I really thought it was the first time I really thought it was the first time I really thought about my brain about my brain about my brain you don't think about your brain on a you don't think about your brain on a you don't think about your brain on a day-to-day basis but this is my brain day-to-day basis but this is my brain day-to-day basis but this is my brain telling me you know ding ding ding ding telling me you know ding ding ding ding telling me you know ding ding ding ding some weird shit's happening some weird shit's happening some weird shit's happening and when I was thinking about climate or and when I was thinking about climate or and when I was thinking about climate or confronting climate change it felt like confronting climate change it felt like confronting climate change it felt like some of the things I learned about my some of the things I learned about my some of the things I learned about my own existence you know I'm going to die own existence you know I'm going to die own existence you know I'm going to die but you don't really absorb that is that but you don't really absorb that is that but you don't really absorb that is that the first time you kind of that was like the first time you kind of that was like the first time you kind of that was like my face yeah this is really the shit you my face yeah this is really the shit you my face yeah this is really the shit you know or at least deep disability if not know or at least deep disability if not know or at least deep disability if not death and death and death and um that that ability is transitory and I um that that ability is transitory and I um that that ability is transitory and I thought about the climate problem we're thought about the climate problem we're thought about the climate problem we're not going to solve the global warming not going to solve the global warming not going to solve the global warming problem at least not in our lifetimes problem at least not in our lifetimes problem at least not in our lifetimes but you you work on making but you you work on making but you you work on making those trajectories sustainable you know those trajectories sustainable you know those trajectories sustainable you know the end of life particularly you work on the end of life particularly you work on the end of life particularly you work on making sure other people don't get making sure other people don't get making sure other people don't get strokes if they can avoid it in my case strokes if they can avoid it in my case strokes if they can avoid it in my case I wrote about I was blogging about my I wrote about I was blogging about my I wrote about I was blogging about my stroke while I was having it I was stroke while I was having it I was stroke while I was having it I was tweeting about it there's a funny tweet tweeting about it there's a funny tweet tweeting about it there's a funny tweet that's kind of mistyped because that's kind of mistyped because that's kind of mistyped because um you know um um you know um um you know um yeah yeah right right so so if you so yeah yeah right right so so if you so yeah yeah right right so so if you so that's like share your knowledge share that's like share your knowledge share that's like share your knowledge share your learning and everyone can do this your learning and everyone can do this your learning and everyone can do this now like on whatever platform and then now like on whatever platform and then now like on whatever platform and then um um um there's also this like giving up part

there's also this like giving up part there's also this like giving up part but not in a depressing well maybe you but not in a depressing well maybe you but not in a depressing well maybe you could call depressing I started to zoom could call depressing I started to zoom could call depressing I started to zoom in years ago and the idea of the in years ago and the idea of the in years ago and the idea of the Serenity Prayer the sobriety thing you Serenity Prayer the sobriety thing you Serenity Prayer the sobriety thing you know it's like know what you can change know it's like know what you can change know it's like know what you can change know what you can't grab me the serenity know what you can't grab me the serenity know what you can't grab me the serenity to accept the things that cannot change to accept the things that cannot change to accept the things that cannot change the courage to change the things that the courage to change the things that the courage to change the things that can and the wisdom to know the can and the wisdom to know the can and the wisdom to know the difference yeah see those three difference yeah see those three difference yeah see those three properties are really important right properties are really important right properties are really important right now now now some aspects of this we know absolutely some aspects of this we know absolutely some aspects of this we know absolutely what we can work on cutting what we can work on cutting what we can work on cutting vulnerability vulnerability vulnerability energy transitions take time science can energy transitions take time science can energy transitions take time science can help us discriminate the difference help us discriminate the difference help us discriminate the difference and that's an iterative changing and that's an iterative changing and that's an iterative changing landscape going forward landscape going forward landscape going forward but at the same time but at the same time but at the same time science science science like I personally on climate modeling or like I personally on climate modeling or like I personally on climate modeling or like narrowing how hot it's going to get like narrowing how hot it's going to get like narrowing how hot it's going to get or more clarity on or more clarity on or more clarity on when an ice sheet is going to collapse I when an ice sheet is going to collapse I when an ice sheet is going to collapse I think those are what I call known and think those are what I call known and think those are what I call known and Nobles so being able to Nobles so being able to Nobles so being able to I've seen enough evidence I've seen enough evidence I've seen enough evidence that those are deeply complex problems that those are deeply complex problems that those are deeply complex problems that we're not going to get there that we're not going to get there that we're not going to get there quickly so then that gives you a quickly so then that gives you a quickly so then that gives you a landscape to act on landscape to act on landscape to act on and that you know whether you bring God and that you know whether you bring God and that you know whether you bring God into the mix is irrelevant it's really into the mix is irrelevant it's really into the mix is irrelevant it's really know what you can change know what you know what you can change know what you know what you can change know what you can't and know what that gives you the can't and know what that gives you the can't and know what that gives you the quality to work on them and serenity is quality to work on them and serenity is quality to work on them and serenity is comfort with comfort with comfort with that this is transitory that the human that this is transitory that the human that this is transitory that the human Journey Journey Journey like anyone's individual Journey like anyone's individual Journey like anyone's individual Journey will have some and that doesn't mean it

will have some and that doesn't mean it will have some and that doesn't mean it has to be near it does this anthropocene has to be near it does this anthropocene has to be near it does this anthropocene that I've been writing about for decades that I've been writing about for decades that I've been writing about for decades is uh is uh is uh can still be a good anthropocene can still be a good anthropocene can still be a good anthropocene or at least a less bad one in terms of or at least a less bad one in terms of or at least a less bad one in terms of how we get through it and you're also a how we get through it and you're also a how we get through it and you're also a musician so in context one one of my musician so in context one one of my musician so in context one one of my favorite songs of yours an album a very favorite songs of yours an album a very favorite songs of yours an album a very fine line I should mention that with the fine line I should mention that with the fine line I should mention that with the stroke coming close to death the lyrics stroke coming close to death the lyrics stroke coming close to death the lyrics here are quite brilliant I have to say here are quite brilliant I have to say here are quite brilliant I have to say oh yeah it's a very fine lie between oh yeah it's a very fine lie between oh yeah it's a very fine lie between winning and losing winning and losing winning and losing a very fine line between living and a very fine line between living and a very fine line between living and dying a very fine line by the way people dying a very fine line by the way people dying a very fine line by the way people should listen to this I can't play this should listen to this I can't play this should listen to this I can't play this because YouTube will give me trouble a because YouTube will give me trouble a because YouTube will give me trouble a very fine line between loving and very fine line between loving and very fine line between loving and leaving leaving leaving most of your life you spend walking a most of your life you spend walking a most of your life you spend walking a very fine line and the rest of the very fine line and the rest of the very fine line and the rest of the lyrics are just quite brilliant it is a lyrics are just quite brilliant it is a lyrics are just quite brilliant it is a fine line yeah I'm glad you walked in fine line yeah I'm glad you walked in fine line yeah I'm glad you walked in with me today gentlemen you're brilliant with me today gentlemen you're brilliant with me today gentlemen you're brilliant kind beautiful human beings thank you so kind beautiful human beings thank you so kind beautiful human beings thank you so much for having this quote-unquote much for having this quote-unquote much for having this quote-unquote debate that was much more about just debate that was much more about just debate that was much more about just exploring ideas together Bjorn thank you exploring ideas together Bjorn thank you exploring ideas together Bjorn thank you so much and uh Andy thank you so much so much and uh Andy thank you so much so much and uh Andy thank you so much for talking today you know these kinds for talking today you know these kinds for talking today you know these kinds of of of extended conversations or the more of it extended conversations or the more of it extended conversations or the more of it the better and finding ways to the better and finding ways to the better and finding ways to spread that capacity just to get people spread that capacity just to get people spread that capacity just to get people out of this win-lose thing is really out of this win-lose thing is really out of this win-lose thing is really important so thanks for what you're important so thanks for what you're important so thanks for what you're doing yeah doing yeah doing yeah thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this thanks for listening to this conversation with Bjorn lomberg and conversation with Bjorn lomberg and conversation with Bjorn lomberg and Andrew revkin to support this podcast Andrew revkin to support this podcast Andrew revkin to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the

please check out our sponsors in the please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you description and now let me leave you description and now let me leave you with some words from Henry David Thoreau with some words from Henry David Thoreau with some words from Henry David Thoreau Heaven is under our feet as well as over Heaven is under our feet as well as over Heaven is under our feet as well as over our heads our heads our heads thank you for listening and hope to see thank you for listening and hope to see thank you for listening and hope to see you next time